A TREATISE OF THE LAWFULNESS OF HEARING OF THE Ministers in the church of England: penned by that learned and Reverend divine, Mr. john Robinsz. late Pastor to the English church of God in Leyden. Printed according to the Copy that was found in his study after his decase: and now published for the common good. TOGETHER WITH A LETTER written by the same Authore: and approved by his church: which followeth after this Treatise. JOHN 7. 24. judge not according to pearance, but judge righteous judgement. Printed Anno 1634. THE PRINTERS TO the Christian Reader. CHristian Reader. How ever the very naming of the Author of this following Treatise, were sufficient reason for us to publish this same unto the world, in regard of those large abilities above many others, which the Lord had bestowed upon him, and in regard he being now at rest, with the Lord, and so having finished long since his course in this his pilgrimage, we cannot expect to have any more use of his help this way, and although it were great pity that such a work as this should be concealed for so long time, considering the work was perfected, and writted by his own hand, and so found after his death (which is nine years since) in his study, yet have we thought it good all this while to conceal it, in respect of that desire we had to the peace of that church, whereof the Author of this Treatise was for so many years a Pastor. In regard we did perceive that some though not many were contrary minded to the Author's judgement expressed in this Trtatise: And this we judge to be a sufficient reason of our so long delaying of publishing this Treatise to the world: Yet to our grief we have now just cause to put this same on foot; For as when a city is in danger of enemies to be surprised, it is then high time to take up all those warlike Munitions which happily before that time were cast aside and not regarded, that so they may the better maintain their city, and the privileges of it against their enemies: so we judge it as necessary if not more when we see the enemies of God's church to encroach upon the privileges of the same especially when they aim at the utter ruinating of it, that then it is high time for us to defend the cause of Christ, and it was the wisdom of jehojada the High Priest perceiving the malice of Athalia, seeking to destroy the whole seed of jehosaphat, to hide joash the right heir of the Kingdom, and when he saw a fit opportunity then to reveal him, and make him known, so we who have observed Athalias spirit in part to be in some, who have laboured to assume the power to themselves, which is proper to the church, and so Diotrephes like would cast out whom they please, and retain whom they thought good, and rather than they will be hindered in this their attempt, they will labour to rend that church in pieces in which they have lived for many years together, and that we may not seem to accuse them of any thing without just reason, we desire the Christian Reader, and themselves to consider this that follows▪. First, their schism or as they call it their leaving of the church, doth arise upon this occasion, to wit, that 2. which were members of the same church with them having upon some occasion heard some of the Ministers in England preach, and it coming to the knowledge of some of these who have now made this rent the church, they would presently have these persons dealt withal as for sin, and if they did not repent after dealing, they would have the church to proceed to excommunicate them ipso facto, which the church not willing to consent unto, these men could not be satisfied, but they would have their own wills done or else they would rend from the church, which proceeding of theirs, if it were approved of and followed no church could long continue together in peace, for what these four or five men have done, that may any other man do, so that if any man do conceive any of his brethren to walk in any such sin, which he judges doth deserve excommunication, if the church will not thereto consent, he may rend himself from the same; Although the Author of this Treatise have taught them otherwise, to wit, that if the church, see not that to be sin, which I see to be a sin, I having informed the church thereof according to my place, I have disscharged my duty, and the sins lies upon the church (if it be a sin, and not upon me; but it seems these men do look for that in the church on earth which is only to be found in heaven, for themselves have affirmed, and that before diverse witnesses that there is no sin small or great that is to borne withal, and that the very speaking of a word through frailty about worldly businesses upon the Sabbaoth day, should have as severe a sentence, as he that shall openly & profanely transgress against the 4. Commandment, the very naming of with their opinion, is sufficient to discover their weakness, & that we may yet further discover these men's folly to the world more fully, we will show you how contrary they are to themselves in this their judgement, for as they say, and do affirm that there is no sin which is to be borne withal in the church, yet themselves, or at least the chief of them do practise the contrary, as for example, one in stead of many may serve the turn: The chief of Author of this trouble doth hold, and so hath for many years together, to wit, that it is unlawful for the members of one church to have communion with another church, and yet not withstanding this his judgement, he can bear with one, who hath contrary to this his judgement practised, and so professeth still to do upon occasion, and yet not withstanding his so practising, and so professing, he is received among them, and is their chief if not their only Teacher which they have: So that we may here easily perceive, that though this man doth use Iehu's peace against the sins of others, with whom he desires to be alienated, yet he can bear with as great sins in others, in his judgement with whom he desires to walk, we could show many more reasons to prove his partiality, but then we should exceed the bonds of an Epistle only we desire to give the Reader to take notice of those two things: First, that this practice of hearing the Ministers of the church of England, is not against any Article of faith, which is by this church professed, whereof the Author of this Treatise was a Pastor, it being no Act of Church Communion, for if hearing simply were an Act of Communion, than every h●●●tique, or Atheist, or whatsoever he were that should come into the church of God, should have Communion with them, which if it were true, as this following Treatise proves the contrary, than it were good for every church that will avoid communion with profane men, to meet in private, and then to shut their door when their own compagnie is meet together: else I cannot see how they can avoid having communion with wicked men: to wit if bear hearing be an act of communion: Secondly, as this hearing is not against any Article of their faith, so likewise it was not in the judgement of the church esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withal, The letter you shall find after the Treatise. & this may appear by a copy of a letter which we have here following published where the church in the counsel which they give to the church of London do sufficiently make it appear, that their judgement did manifestly differ from those which now have made this breach, and which is well to be marked by the reader how that the church when this letter was write: enjoyed the Pastor, and their company was five times greater than it was when this breach was made: & because these men in his their error are willing to retraine it, and not being able to make any sufficient reply to the answer made in this Treatise to their objections, though the manuscript thereof hath been in their hands for many years, yet because they will find something to say, more than others have done heretofore, though of less force, therefore they have joined some new objections which both the seducer and the seduced do think are unanswerable, therefore it will not be amiss for us to propound them, and to give some answer to them that so if their stomaches serve they may reply to all at once: First, they object and say that we hold the church of England to be a false church, and the Ministers thereof to be Antichristian, and yet we go thither to worship the true God. Before we answer directly to this objection, we shall entreat the Reader and themselves to consider of this that follows. First, A church may be said to be false in diverse respects, and according to those respects, we are to have diverse Considerations thereof, as first, a church may be said to be false in respect of outward order, to wit, when a church is gathered together, not according to the rule of Christ neither, in their outward government, do they conform thereunto, now this church cannot be said to be the church of Christ being thus erected, and governed contrary to the rule of Christ, but is false and Antichristian, and yet notwithstanding the faith professed by this church, and the doctrines, taught in this church may be sound, and according to God. Secondly, a church may be false not only in respect of outward order, but likewise in respect of faith and doctrine. Now to this latter, we counsel no man to go, because from thence no good can be expected, and that is the esteem we have of the church of Rome. But now as in a true church in respect of outward order, there may be many false doctrines taught, so in a church, that is false in respect of outward order, there may be many sound, and seasonable truths taught, and this esteem we have of the preaching in England: Namely, that the doctrine there taught according to the Articles of their faith is sound, and the effects of it hath appeared, in the working of faith in the hearts of many thousands. For the outward order, or meeting there as a church, that concerns themselves, and those that are in union, with that church estate, but not all that hear them. Now that worshipping of God which consists in hearing his word is warrantable for us to do in England, we prove it by this argument. That preaching which ordinarily begets men to the faith of Christ may lawfully be heard. But the preaching of many Ministers in the Church of England hath, and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ. Therefore the preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard. The first part of this syllogism is proved out of Rom 10. where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary way God uses to beget men to the faith of Christ tells us, it comes by hearing of the word of God preached, if faith comes by hearing the word of God preached (to wit, if that be the outward means) then there is no question but that a man may hear such preaching, and any man may blush for shame, that shall deny this: so that the major part of the argument is clear: And for the Minor part they cannot deny it, no more than a man at noon day can deny the sun to shine: for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the preaching and hearing in England, it is a great question wether they ever had faith or no: yet because some are so gross as to deny this, we will therefore: prove the contrary by this Argument. That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnal, and so not capable of a church-estate, to become saints & so fit for a church-estate: That preaching must needs beget men to the faith: But the preaching and hearing in England, made them that were unfit & carnal to become saints, and so fit members to the true church, which were not so before. Therefore the preaching in England and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith: That the preaching, and hearing in England hath done this: Witness the church of Leyden, and of Amstelredam. Let them tell us where they received their faith: if they say they had it not till they joined in these bodies, how could they then be true to their own grounds, that none but visible Christians are fit matter for the church whereas none can be so esteemed except in the judgement of charity, we judge them to have true faith. But some of these that have made this division have not denied, but faith is wrought by the preaching and hearing in England: and yet which is wonderful contradiction: they say it is not the word of God as it is there preached: so that it seems there is something besides the word of God which is an ordinary means to beget men to the faith, and there is another word besides God's word that will do it; the like absurdity hath seldom been heard from any that profess themselves to be Christians, and that they may, not seem to say this without some reason, mark the reason that they bring to prove it, say they we do deny that to be the word of God, as it is there preached: by a false Ministry, though the word itself be of God yet as it is by them preached, it is none of God's word so God's word here stands at fast, and lose, it is God's word, and it is not God's word, as if they should say, it is God's word if Mr. Can shall preach it: but if another, that is a Minister in England preach the same it is none of God's word: so that men's outward callings true, or false, makes the word to be the word of God, or not to be the word of God, an assertion rather to be pitied then refuted, being little better than blasphemy, that which they bring to make this assertion good, to wit, that any man having an outward calling which is unlawful makes the word of God, which he preacheth, not to be the word of God, and this, say they to prove it, it was true incense which Nadab and Abihu took, Leu. 10. 1. to offer up to the Lord, but because they took strange fire, and not the fire, which was from the Altar as the Lord had appointed, therefore the Lord sent a fire to destroy them: so say they, it is the true word of God, which is preached in England, but because they preach the same by an unlawful office, therefore the Lord abhors it: A stranger collection I think can hardly by heard, for here strange fire is opposed to an unlawful outward calling, which nothing can be more absurd, for Nadab and Abihu had a true outward calling to offer, they were the sons of Aaron (saith the text) therefore if any thing hence might be concluded, in just proportion, it must be to the doctrine taught, and not in the least to the calling: so that we may from thence gather thus much, that if a Minister in regard of his outward calling true: shall teach any thing, that is not from the Lord, they are to expect God's judgement for the same, and more cannot hence be collected, further, let it be showed, that ever any prophet in the old or new Testament was ever termed a false prophet in respect of his outward calling, but always in respect of his doctrine; we can find that such as had true outward calling in the true church, yet were false prophets in regard of their doctrine in many particulars as Christ teaches concerning the Scribes and Pharises for their false expounding of the Law, let them show the like for outward callings: Thus have we thought good, having been ear witnesses of these things here propounded to set down our censure of them, desiring the Lord to make this whole work (for the general good now set forth) take effect in those that love the Truth. Far you well. OF The lawfulness of hearing the Ministers, of the Church of England, by john Robinson. AS they that affect alienation from others make their differences as great, and the adverse opinion or practice as odious, as they can; thereby to further their desired victory over them, and to harden themselves, and their side against them: So on the contrary, they, who desire peace and accord, both interpret things in the best part that reasonnablie they can and seek how, and where they may find any lawful door of entry into accord, & agreement what others. Of which latter number I profess myself (by the grace of God) both a companion and guide: specially in regard of my christian countrymen, to whom God hath tied me in so many inviolable bonds: accounting it a cross, that I am in any particular compelled to descent from them; But a benefit, and matter of reioiceng, when I can, in any thing with good conscience, unite with them, in matter: if not in manner; or where it may be, in both. And this affection, the Lord, and my conscience are my witnesses, I have always nourished in my breast, even when I seemed furthest drawn from them. And so all that have taken knowledge of my course can testify with me, and how I have still opposed in others, and repressed in mine own (to my power) all sower zeal against, and peremptory rejection of such, as whose holy graces challenged better use and respect from all christians. And in testimony of mine affection this way, & for the freeing of mine own conscience, and information of other men's: I have penned this discourse, tending to prove the hearing of the word of God preached by the Ministers of the church of England: (able to open and apply the doctrines of faith by that church professed) both lawful, and in cases, necessary for all, of all sects, or sorts of christians, having opportunity and occasion of so doing: though sequestering themselves from all communion with the Hierachicall order there established. Three sorts of opposites I make account to meet withal. The first of them, who truly desire, and carefully endeavour to have their whole course both in religion, and otherwise, framed by the holy, and right zeal of God's Word, either for their confirmation in the truth; or reformation, wherein, through humane frailty they) step aside. And unto them especially I direct this my discourse: begging at his hands who is the Father of lights, gem. 1. 17 and from whom cometh down every good and perfect gift, for them, as for myself, that as he hath given us to set our faces towards heaven, and to seek him with the whole heart, Psal. 119. 6. so he would not suffer us to wander from his commandments, to the right hand, or to the left. A second sort is of them, whose tender and scrupulous conscience, makes them fearful, and jealous of every thing, which hath in it the least appearance or show of evil: lest coming too near it, they be defiled by it, one way or other. This their godly zeal, and tendernes of heart is to be loved of all men, and cherished by all good means. Only such are to be entreated, for their own good, to take knowledge of a distinction most useful for their direction, in things lawful in their kind, and good in their right use. Of which some are only naturally good in their kind, but not simply commanded of God, as, to get, and keep the riches, and credit of the world; to enjoy outward peace, or other bodily comfort. Others are morally good in their kind, and commanded of God, as to hear the word of God, obey the Magistrate, and the like, Now in things of the former sort, it is very requisite (considering both their nature and ours) that we keep a jealous eye, and straight hand over ourselves, and our ways. For them, they are not in their kind enjoined as the other: neither do the scriptures any where require of men, to be rich, or the like: as they do to hear God's Word, obey authority, etc. And for ourselves we are prove, and in danger to overstraint for the getting, and enjoying of them, as being naturally pleasing good things. So as if out of a godly jealousy over our hearts towards them, we keep not ourselves from going too near the side, for the getting, or keeping of them: we shall by one storm of temptation or other, be blown in to the ditch of sin and destruction. But now, for the practice and performance of duties simply moral, and commanded in their kind, as is the hearing of God's Word, specially by God's people, we ought to strain to the utmost, and to go as near the wind, as may be: seeing nothing but apparent sin in the way can excuse the withdrawing from it, when occasion of enjoying it is offered. Oh that there were not to be found who being very scrupulous of coming near to any thing amiss in outward ordinances: or to any person failing in them: yet make no scruple of complying, and conforming with the world so fare in the eager pursuit of wordly profits: immoderate use of worldly delights and fulfilling the lusts of the world and flesh dwelling in them, as that there appears scarce an hayr-breath, or difference between them and mere worldlings, which know not God. Which latter evils are both worse in themselves, as being expressly condemned by the la of God, and light of nature: and more odious in the persons: as being more personal, free and voluntary, than those in the other, to which they are carried by the violent courrent of the times. A third sort of opposites I make account to meet with, more untractable than the former: and more vehemently bend against the thing propounded by me, out of prejudice and passion, than the other by scruple of conscience, or show of reason. To them I can hardly say any thing: (it not being their manner to read, or willingly to hear that which crosseth their prejudices) yet something I must saic touching them, out of the woeful experience of many years taken of them, though not much I thank the Lord, amongst them, unto whom I have ministered. Some of these I have found carried with so excessive admiration of some former guides in their course, as they think it half heresy to call into question any of their determinations, or practices. We must not think, that only the Pharisees of old, and papists of later times are superstitiously addicted to the traditions of the elders, and authority of the church. In all Sects there are diverse (specially of the weaker sort, who being the less real in their conceptions, are the more personal) that rather choose to follow the trodden of blind tradition, if beaten by some such foregoers, as they admire, than the right way of God's Word by others to be showed them afterwards. Some again are as much addicted to themselves as the former to others: conceiving in effect, though they will not profess it, the same of their own heads, which the papists do of their head the Pope, viz: that they cannot err, or be deceived: and this specially in such matters, as for which they have suffered trouble, and affliction formerly: and so having bought them dear, they value them highly. But it is to marchantlike, to strive to over fell a thing, which we have formerly over bought: we must buy the truth, and not fell it, at any rate: but must account nothing either true or good, according to the valuation which we have set upon it, but God. There is also a third sort highly advanceing a kind of privative goodness and religion: and who bend their force rather to the weaking of other men in their courses then to the building up of themselves in their own: and in truth rather to separation from men not only in evil, but even in that which is good, for some other evil conceived in them, then to union with God, and his people in his holy ordinances: and half imagining that they draw near enough to God if they can withdraw far enough from other men. Great zeal they have against the false church, ministry, and worship so being, or by them conceived so to be; and against any appearing evil in the true, but little for that which is true and good, as their practice manifests: but evil is as contrary to evil, as good is to evil; and so is that zeal plainly carnal, which carries a man further against evil, then for good: seeing no evil is foe evil as good is good. Fourthly, there are some to be found so soured with moodines, & discontentement as they become unsociable, & almost Lukanthropoi, Werewolves, as they speak, if they see nothing lamentable, they are ready to lament. If they take contentment in any: it is in them alone, whom they find discontented. If they read any books, they are only invectives, specially against public states, and their governors. All things tending to accord and union any manner of way are unwelcome unto them. They have their portion in Ismaels' blessing. Genes. 16. 12. Lastly there want not, who (as jehu in his fierce marching, covered his ambition, cruelty, and zeal for his own house under the pretext of zeal for Gods) think to cover, and palliate their own both grosser and more proper, and personal corruptions, under a furious march not only against the failings, but the persons also failing of infirmity, in matters of church order, and ordinances. Who if they were well acquainted, and duly affected with their own both more voluntary, and greater sins, would slack their jehus peace, yea turn their course, though not to walk with others in evil (which God forbidden) yet to apply, & accommodate themselves unto them, in that which is good, so far as possibly they could observe any way by the Lord opened unto them. I could instance in, and name diverse particular persons monstrously grown out of kind, this way. But that course I leave unto them, who rather desire the disgraceing, than the bettering of them against whom they deal: or perhaps conceive in their leavened hearts that there is no other way of bettering, specially persons of meant condition, then by shaming, and disgrac●ing them. Genes. 49. 5. 6. But let not my soul come in their secret, in whose habitations are such instruments of cruellic. These things thus promised, the objections follow, which I have either heard from others, or can conceive of myself most coullerable against the practice by me propounded. And they are of two sorts. Some of them are framed upon supposition, that the ministers in that church are in themselves lawful, & of God: but not yet to be heard by reason of the abuses, and evils to be found in their ministrations. Others withdraw hearin (& those the more) upon the contrary supposition: to wit, that the very order and constitution of that church and ministry is papal, and unlawful. Now the examination of the grounds of the one or other I will not in this place, meddle with: but (though both cannot be true) will for the satisfying of the withdrawers on both parts, grant for the present, to either part their ground, and so examine distinctly what exceptions they can or do build hereupon. But first, for the former. Supposing a church, and the ministry, thereof essentially lawful, it cannot but be lawful for the members of other churches in general union, and assosiation, with it to communicate therewith, in things lawful, and lawfully done: seeing the end of union is communion. God hath in vain united persons, and states together, if they may in nothing communicate together. But he, who would have us receive the weak in faith, whom God hath received, would not have us refuse the fellowship of churches in that which is good, for any weakness, in them, of one sort or other. And this we have so plainly, and plentfullie commended unto us both by the Prophets, yea by Christ himself in the jewish church; and Apostles, and Apostolical men in the first christian churches; in which many errors, & evils of all kinds were more than manifest: and the same oft times both so fare spread, and deeply rooted, as the reforming of them was rather to be wished, then hoped for: as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any, who desire to follow their holy steps in faith towards God, and charity towards men, and effectual desire of their own edification. The objections of the former sort follow. 1. OBJECTION. There is danger of being seduced, and misledd by the errors taught in the astemblies. ANSWER. 1. We must not lose the benefit of many main truths taught, Matth 5. chap 23. for danger of some few errors. 2. Cor 11. 19 ●. joh. 4. 1. 3. Specially in lesser matters. Let such read Parker of church policy, lib. 1. c. 39 This were to fear the devil more than to trust God, 2. There were in the jewish church in Christ's time, and in diverse of the Apostolical churches afterwards, more & greater errors taught, then are in any, or all the churches of England: of which also there are not a few, which if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practice all truths, as they keep themselves carefully from errors, might compare in this business, with any reformed church in Europe. 3. This exception hath its wait against the hearing of Priests and jesuites, specially by the weaker sort, and lesseable to discern of things that differ: But not against many ministers of the church of England. 2. OBJECTION. He that in any thing partakes with that church in which sins known are suffered unreformed, partakes in all the sins of that church, as he that swears by the Altar▪ swears by the offerings upon it which it sanctifies, Matth. 23. 19 20. ANSWER. I partake not in the sins of any: how great or manifest soever the sins be: or how near unto me soever the persons be except the same sins either be committed, or remain unreformed by my fault. Otherwise, Christ our Lord had been enwrapped in the guilt of a world of sins in the jewish church, with which church he communicated in God's ordinances, living and dying a member thereof. If my brother sin a scandelous sin, and I by just order, make complaint thereof to the church, I have done my duty It appertains to the church to excommunicate him, if he repent not; but not to me except (Popelike) I would make myself the church. I am guitty of the evil in the common wealth, & family, for the redressing whereof I do not my duty in my place: which if I do in the church as I can, I am free from the sins done and suffered there, which sins and evils I can no more be said to suffer (wanting power to reform them) then to suffer it to blow, or rain, because I hinder it not. But the proof of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable devise. How doth the church sanctify the sin of the sinner, as the Altar doth the offering of the offerer? The Altar makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift, which before was not an offering actually, but only gold, silver, or other material: So doth not the church make any man's sin to become his sin, which it was not before, but only suffers the sin that was. But to strain the strings of this imagined proportion, to make them meet: and to suppose the church in a sense to be as the Altar; yet this only follows thereupon: that, as he who partakes with the Altar in the upholding of the offering, partakes with the offering: so he that partakes with the church in the upholding of any evil, hath his part in the evil also. And this I grant willingly: but deny, as a most vain imagination, that every one, that partakes with a church in things lawful, joins with it in upholding the things unlawful to be found in it. Christ our Lord joined with the jewish church in things lawful; and yet upheld nothing unlawful in it. 3. OBJECTION. But this course of hearing will offend weak brethren, not persuaded of the lawfulness of it. ANSWER. 1. It will offend more, and many of them weakere, and that more grievously: if it be not performed. Secondly. It is an offence taken and not given: seeing the thing is in itself good: in its kind commanded by God; and in that particular, by men in authority; and directly tending to mine edification: and not like unto eating of flesh, or drinking of wine, or the like things of indifferent nature, and left to my free liberty to use, or not to use. And these are the principal objections upon the former ground: they upon the latter follow. There is in the hands of many a threatise published by a man of note, containing certain reasons to prove it unlawful to hear, or have spiritual communion with the present ministry of the church of England. This hath been answered: but indeed sophistically, and in passion: Neither hath the answerer much regarded what he said, or unsaid, so he might gainsay his adversary. With that answer was joined an other directed to myself, and the same doubled pretending to prove Public communion upon private, but not pressing at all, in the body of the discourse, that consequence; but proceeding upon other grounds: and in truth, consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms public, licence, government, ministry, and the like; drawn to another sense, then either I intended them, or then the matter in question will permit. Whereas he that will refute another, should religiously take, & hold to his adversary's meaning: and if in any particular it be not so plainly set down; should spell it, as it were out of his words. But it is no new thing even for learned and godly men to take more than lawful liberty in dealing with them, against whom they have the advantage of the times favouring them, like the wound on their backs. But God for bid I should follow them herein. I will on the contrary use all plains, and simplicity, as in the sight of God, that so I may make the naked truth appear as it is, to the christian readers eye, what in me lieth. And for the treatise mentioned, it must be observed, how both in the title, and body of the book, the author confounds as one hearing of and having spiritual communion with the ministry▪ etc. which as it is true of such as stand in spiritual and political church-union with a church, and the ministry thereof, who accordingly have church communion in the public acts, and exercises of that church: so is it not true of others which are not members of, not in ecclesiastical union and combination with the said church. For the better clearing of things, let us in a few words, consider distinctly of religious actions, according to the several ranks, in which they may rightly, & orderly be set. Some such actions are religious only, as they are performed by religious persons. And of this sort is hearing (and so reading) of God's word. The scriptures teach, and all confess, that hearing of the word of God goes before faith▪ For faith comes by hearing, Rom. 10. 17 as by an outward means. Hearing then being before faith, 1. Tim. 1. 5 and faith before all other acts of religion inward, Rom. 10. 10 or outward: Gal. 2. 20 it must needs follow, that hearing is not simply or of itself a work of religion: and so not of religious communion. Hearing is properly, and of itself, a natural action, though it be the hearing of the very word of God. And I call it a natural action in itself, in a double respect. First, for that the light of nature teacheth every man to hear, and listen to another, that can and will teach and inform him in any thing for his good, divine or humane. Secondly, for that a mere natural man, lieu, Turk, Infidel, or Idolater, lawfully may, yea necessarily aught to hear God's word: that so of natural he may become spiritual. In the seacond rank I place preaching, Psal. 50. 16. 17. & prayer; which are properly acts religious, Pro. 15. 8. and spiritual: as being to be performed the one by a gift, joh. 9 31. the other by a grace of God's spirit. Of a third sort is the participation in the Sacraments: which ordinarily at least requires a member ship in some particular and ministerial church in the participant, they being public church ordinances. In a fourth order I set the power of suffrage, and voice gi●eing in electing of officers, and censuring of offenders: for which there is requisite an interest of the person so voteing, in that particular church, as a member thereof. Of the last sort is the ministration of Sacraments, which requires, with the rest fore mentioned, a public state of ministry in the person administering them. Now for preaching by some, & hearing by others (which two always go together) they may be, and oft are performed without any religious o● sp●●●tuall communion at all passing between the persons preaching or hearing. When Paul preached to the superstitious Athenians shall we conceive he had spiritual communion with that heathenish assembly? Act. 17. 22. How much less had they spiritual, and religious communion with him, who performed not so much as a religious work in their hearing? As God gave any of them to believe; they came into invisible, or inwardly spiritual personal communion with him: as they came to make personal manifestation, and declaration of their faith; they came into outward personal communion with him, Lastly, as they came to join in, or unto some particular church; in to church communion with him: else not. So when there comes into the church assembly, unbelievers, 1. Cor, 14. 23. heathens, Turks, jews, Atheists, excommunicates, men of all religious, men of none at all, and there hear: what spiritual communion have they with the church, or state of the teacher, or one with another, either in regard of the nature of the act done, or by God's ordination and institution? Hearing simply is not appointed of God to be a mark, and note either of union in the same faith, or order, amongst all that hear: or of differencing of christians from no christians: or of members from no members of the church: as the sacraments are notes of both in the participants. The hearing of the word of God is not so enclosed by any hedge, or ditch divine, or humane, made about it, but lies in common for all, for the good if all. The particular objections follow. 1. OBJECTION. No man may submit his conscience to be wrought upon by an unlawful, and Antichristian ministry: neither hath God promised, or doth afford any blessing upon it: neither can any have the sanctified use thereof. ANSWER. It cannot be said properly that the office of ministry works upon the conscience of the hearer. The office only gives power, and charge to the teacher to teach in such or such a church state. And as it resides in the person of the officer alone, so the communion (lawful or unlawful)▪ which any hath with it, is in regard of the lawful or unlawful ecclesiastical relation and union foregoing between the persons: and not in any working of the office upon the conscience of any. secondly, though God bless not the unlawful office of ministry, which is not of himself: yet he may, and doth bless the truths taught by the officer, Genes. 4●. 5. 6. which are of himself, and from heaven. To deny this of many in the church of England, is (Balaam-like) to curse, where God would have us bless. 2. OBJECTION. To hear such a minister is to honour, approve, and uphold his office of ministry. ANSWER. 1. If this be simply true, then when the heathenish Athenians heard Paul preach: or when an unbeliever comes into the church assembly, and hears the preacher, he approves, honours, and upholds the office of ministry, which, what it means, he is altogether ignorant. If any reply: But we know the ministry of the church to be as it is. I answer, that the knowing of it makes not our act the more, or less an act of approbation. If I do an act wherein I indeed approve of a thing, if I know the thing, I really approve of it upon knowledge: if I know it not, I really approve if it, but ignorantly. 2. If I approve of the office, simply, because I hear the officer preach, than I much more approve of all the doctrines which he delivers, because I hear him deliver them. If the latter seem unreasonnable, so is the former much more, except I be in church communion with the officer, and then indeed I really approve of his office: as I also do of his doctrine, if it be according to the confession of faith made by me: for than I am in former union with him in the one, or other, and so have communion in the acts thereof. If this were a good ground, that every one approves of the evil done in matter, or manner, where he is present, none could live with good conscience in any society of men upon earth. Persons so minded are best alone: for with others they will keep no peace: no nor with themselves neither: if they be true to their own ground. But they plainly balk themselves in their courses, either in weakness of judgement, or partiality of affection, or through want of due consideration of their ways. 3. OBJECTION. By this than it seems a man may be present at any act of Idolatry, and do as others do that practice idolatry, yet not approve of it. And so the three Nobles in Daniel needed not to have put themselves upon such pikes of danger as they did, for not falling down, as others did, in the place. ANSWER. 1. In the preaching of the truths of the Gospel no Idolatrous act is performed; as there was. 2. It must be known, that approbation is properly in the heart; and only the manifestation of approbation in outward gesture, speech or writing. Both the one and other are evil if the thing be evil. But hear it must be considered, that I may in cases, do the same outward act, which others do, and wherein they manifest their approbation of idolatry or other evil: and yet I be free, in truth and deed, from all such approbation, and slain thereof. The lews after Christ's death, and the taking away, 2. Col. 15. and abolishing of the legal ordinances thereby, circumcised their infants, and frequentled the temple for purification, and other mosaical ceremonies as parts of God's worship, and still remaining of divine institution. Paul also circumcised Timothy, entered the Temple for purification, and yet did not approve, any manner of way of the error and evil in the jewish worshippers. To come nearer home. It is the custom in Popish countries, that all that pass by a cross must in honour of it leave it on the right hand, as they may, by reason of the placing of it, coming, or going. Now if I ride with others that way, I may do the thing, that they do, and keep company with them, & yet not honour the cross as they do. It is beside the former, the manner, that such, as so pass a cross, should in further honour put of their hat to the said cross. But if I do this also I plainly manifest an approbation of the superstition. The reason of the difference is, because I have another just cause to do the former-thing, namely to keep on with my company: but have no just cause of the latter. But now suppose, that at the very place, where the cross stands, I meet with some friend, or other, to whom I own that evil respect of uncovering my head; I may then do that lawfully also upon the former ground. So if I had just and reasonnable cause either of coming, or standing by the Magistrate (to whom I own this civil honour) whilst he is performing some act of Idolatry in the streets, or else where; I might upon the same ground, go or stand uncovered by him, without just blame. To apply these things to the objection moved, seeing no other cause could reasonnable be conceived of the Kings commanding such a thing, or of their doing the thing, at his commandment, save the worshipping of the Idol; they in so doing could not have escaped the just blame of Idolatry: But now I have just causes more than one of my hearing, and amongst the rest, mine edification; and therefore cannot be challenged therein to approve of the ministers, flate, or standing. Besides that, as I formerly answered, hear is no Idolatrous act performed. 4. OBJECTION. He that hears them preach, hears them as Ministers of the church of England, and as sent by the bishops, and so in hearing them, hears and receive them that send them according to that of our Saviour, Luk. 9 16. he that hears you, hears me, john 13. 10. and he that despiseth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseth me; despiseth him that sent me. ANSWER. I grant the former part of the objection: and account the denying of it a point of familisme: seeing the officers of public states in the executing of their offices are to be esteemed, according to the public laws, and orders of those states, and not according to any under hand either course, or intention, by themselves or others. They are heard, as they preach, and preach as ministers of the Bishops sending, and of the parris hes receiving to which they are sent by them. And so I profess I hear them as the ministers of the Bb: sending, and of the Parishes sent to: but not as my ministers either sending, or sent to, except I be of those parishes, or at least in ecclesiastical union with them. Every one, whether of false a church, or no church, or excommunicated from the church, that hears me, hears me as the Pastor of the church, which I serve, but not as his Pastor, I suppose, nor in way of any his spiritual communion with mine office of Pastourshippe. Secondly, by hearing & receiving there Christ means properly the hearking, too, believing, and obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles: which many despised, unto whom he apposeth the former that heard it. Now the ministers in the parishes have not the doctrines of the Gospel from the Bishops, as they have their office: but from God in his word, and so fare forth as a man hears, that is, hearkens too, and receives them by receiving it, he so fare hearkes too & receives Christ. 5. OBJECTION. Yet such as hear them have communion which their office of ministry what in them lies. ANSWER. That is, they have no communion at all with it, if it lie not in them to have any: as it doth not. If I hold up my hand as high as I can, I touch heaven with my finger, what in me lies. Do I therefore at all touch it? If such think to have, or that they have, any such communion, it is their error, and ignorance, but makes not the thing to be the more, then if they thought not so. 6. OBJECTION. Is there then no communion at all between the teacher, and taught? what profit the comes thereby such hearing. ANSWER. The church officer feeds the flock and church over which he is set, Act. 20. 28 as the object of his ministry. Such as come in (being not in church-union therewith) hear him so doing: And as a stander-by hearing me talk to, or dispute with another (though I speak not a word to him) may reap as much, and more fruit by my speech, than he to whom I directed it; so may and doth it often come to pass with him, that hears the minister feed the flock whose minister he is, though he be no part of it. He may reap fruit by hearing him feed his flock, or seeing him minister baptism to any member thereof. Hear is communion only in the effects of the truths taught. It were usurpation in any to partake in a church privilege (which the office of ministry is) that were not in a church-state, first. And so, if hearing simply imported church-communion, none but church-members might lawfully hear. 7. OBJECTION. In the true church indeed is order, that the church covenant go before church communion: but not so in the false. ANSWER. In the true church there may be unlawful church-communion without a preceding church-covenant, as well, as in the other: to wit, if an act of communion (properly) pass between the church, and him that is no church-member: as for example, participation in the sacraments. But hearing being not properly an act of communion, cannot import communion necessarily with the one, or other: nor otherwise then according to a foregoing church-union: whereas to partake in the Lord's supper imports communion in both: lawful in him, that is, a lawful church-member: and unlawful in him, that is not, in such a church-state. 8. OBJECTION. But it is the order of the church of England: that all that hear, are, and so are reputed members of that church. ANSWER. I deny that there is any such order. Let the la or cannon either, be shown that so orders things. Excommunicates are permitted to hear sermons, though not divine service, as they call it. 2. What if there were such an order? It no more either made or declared me to be a member there, then doth my dwelling in such or such a parish make me a member of that parish-church: which latter is indeed the la, and order there. If the church with me should make a la, cannon, or order that all that come in & hear me preach, should thereby become members of it; we were the more foolish in making such an order: but they never a whit the nearer either for membershippe or communion. 9 OBJECTION. He that hears, appears to have communion with the church, & ministry, and all appearance of evil is to be avoided, 1. Thess, 5. 22. ANSWER. The scripture is not to be understood of all that appears evil to others, out of an erroneous, and deceived judgement: for than we must abstain from almost all good: seeing there are some to whom almost all good seems evil: but it is meant either of the doctrine in Prophecy, of which I have some probable suspicion; of which the Apostle seems properly to speak: or of that which appears evil to a rightly discerning eye. By this imagined exposition I might not hire a house in a parish, where I were not known: seeing thereby I appear a parish-member. 10. OBJECTION. None can hear without a preacher, nor preach except he be sent, Rom. 10 14. 15. Therefore I cannot lawfully hear him that hath not a lawful sending. ANSWER. 1. That conclusion is neither in text, nor sound: I may lawfully hear him that hath no lawful calling, as I have formerly shown. 2. The Apostles meaning there, is not to show what is unlawful, but what is impossible. It is impossible to believe without hearing, and impossible to hear without preaching, and impossible to preach without the sending there intended: that is, without God's gracious work of Providence in raising up of men, by enabling, and disposeing them to preach for the effectual calling of the elect of God; of which he there speaks. If any make question whether faith come by the hearing of the preachers there: it is more questionable, whether they themselves, want not faith, which are so barren of charity, in which true faith is fruitful. If faith come by the preaching in England to any, it follows thereupon, that such preachers are sent, in the Apostles sense. 11. OBJECTION. The sheep of Christ hear his voice, but strangers they will not hear, joh. 10. 3. 8. 27. ANSWER. Christ doth not there speak of the outward hearing, but of the hearking unto, that is, as he expounds himself verse, 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 16. 27. of the knowing, and believing of his voice: & following it. So chap. 9 I told you before, and ye did not hear, that is, not believe, vers. 27. And God hears not sinners, verse. 31. that is, approves not of them, and their prayers. So chap. 11. I know that thou bearest me always. and a thousand times in the scriptures. The drift of Christ in the place is (without question) to show the difference between such as were his sheep, and such as were not his sheep. His sheep heard his voice: and they which were not his sheep heard not his voice. But they which were not his sheep, nor heard his voice, as there he speaks, heard him preach outwardly, as well, as the rest, which were his sheep. Besides, they which were his sheep, and would not hear strangers, in the Lord's sense, heard outwardly those strangers preach, and by hearing them discovered them to be strangers, that is, false prophets. The strangers of whom he speaks were of the true church, and of Israel: but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soul. Such strangers none should hear, that is, believe and follow. 12. OBJECTION. The scriptures both of the old and new testament warn God's people of false Prophets; which the ministers of that church are, having an unlawful calling. ANSWER. 1. They warn, Deut. 13. 3 not to hearken unto them, 1. joh. 4. 1 nor to believe them, but to try them which without hearing them, cannot be done. Not that all false Prophets are to be heard by all, that they might try them; for that were to tempt God: but I now answer the scriptures cited; which speak of Prophets in the true church: which were to be heard, till they were orderly repressed, or at least, plainly discovered by their doctrine heard, to be such. 2. No man's unlawful outward calling makes him a false Prophet; nor his outward lawful calling a true: but his true or false doctrine only makes him a true, or false Prophet. A man may have a lawful office of ministry, and yet be a false prophet, if he teach false doctrine: so may he be a true prophet, if he teach the truth, though in an unlawful and Antichristian state of ministry. Numb. 2● and 25. Yea Balaam was both a false prophet in cursing (in purpose) where God would have him bless, jos. 13. 22▪ & in teaching 2. Pet. 2. 15. 16. Balack to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel: Rev. 2. 14. and yet a true prophet in blessing Israel by the spirit of prophecy, Num. 25. 5. 9 10. etc. and chap. 24. 2. 3. etc. and word of the Lord put into his mouth. He is a prophet that speaks or declares a thing past, present, or to come. And to prophesy in our sense, is nothing else but to speak to edification, exhortation, 1. Cor. 14. 3. and comfort. He that doth this is a true Prophet: He that speaks the contrary, a false. It were good, if they, in whose mouths the challenge of false prophets is rifest, would better weigh how themselves expound, and apply the scriptures in their propheciengs, lest notwithstanding any outward lawful church state, they be deeper wounded by the rebound of their accusations this way, than their adversaries. 13. OBJECTION. The Lords forbids judah going to Gilgal, or to Bethel, Host 4. 15. 16. ANSWER. The meaning is plain, and the words express, that they were not to go thither to offend, and play the harlot, in joining to Idols, verse. 15. 16. 17. This I grant is to be done in no place: but deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by me pleaded for. The scriptures every where forbidden the going, or coming to such places, or persons, as in, or by which some evil is done; to wit, for the doing of any thing, evil, or unlawful in, or with them. 14. OBJECTION. They that eat of the sacrifice partake of the Altar, 1. Cor. 10. 18. so they that receive the word from an unlawful Officer, partake with his office. ANSWER. I deny the consequence. The office is not to the word, as the Altar is to the sacrifice. The Altar makes the thing to be offered, actually to become a sacrifice, which it was not before, save only in destination: as Christ plainly teacheth, saying, Math. 23. 19 The Altar sanctifieth the gift, but so doth not the office make that to become the word of God, which was not so actually before. This argument hath its special weight being applied to sacraments, or proper institutions. The church, and ministry under God, make (in a good sense) the bread and wine sacramental, in their use, which before they were not. And to the sacraments (specially the supper of the Lord) The Apostle in the place cited hath an eye: showing the proportion between the eating of the sacrifices in Israel, which in that use became their sacraments: & the eating of the sacrifices of the Heathens, which were their sacraments; and the eating of the Lords supper, as the sacrament of christians. With these things join in the last place, that sacrifices considered as proper institutions, might not be offered or eaten, Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7. but in the place chosen, and sanctified by the Lord, for that purpose. No more may sacraments now be eaten; but in the church: whereas the word may be preached to any as well out of the church as in it. 15. OBJECTION. The places called Temples & churches having been built for Idolatry should the demolished, and therefore are not to be frequented, specially being accounted and made holy places, Deut. 12. 3. ANSWER. john 4. 21 23. 24. 1. The difference of places under the la, 1. Tim. 2. 6 when all other places (for the most solemn worship) as opposed to that one place as holy, were unholy, is now taken away: so as no place now is holy, or unholy as then. 2. Suppose it be the Magistrate's duty to destroy them (of which I now dispute not, nor howfarre he should proceed therein) yet I deny the consequence, and that I may not use that lawfully which he ought to destroy. The Magistrate ought to have destroyed such cities in Israel, Deut. 13. 12. 13. 14. 14. as whose inhabitants had been corrupted with Idolatry. Yet might the cities (if spared by the Magistrates) lawfully be dwelled in afterwards; & Synagogues in them both be built and frequented for God's moral worship jericho should have been josh. 6. 17. 36. an execration and heap for ever: 2. King. 2. 3. 5. yet being built again and standing, was the seat of a school of the Prophets. The murderer ought to be put to death: yet if he be spared, and survive: his wife, children and servants, lawfully may, and in conscience ought to converse with him according to the natural, and civil relations, between them and him. 3. I know no la in force, nor doctrine received in the church of England, that ascribes any holiness to the places. And for errors, and abuses personal they rest in the persons so erring. I suppose some such holiness be ascribed unto them, as to holy churches, holy buildings, consecrated places, etc. Yet I see no sufficient reason, why I may not use lawfully a natural, and civil place in them, for any lawful work, civil, or religious: private, or public: for there is one reason of all these. If any think those places like the Idolathites, he mistaketh therein: The things offered to Idols, & eaten in the Idols temple, and feast, were in proportion, 1. Cor. 10. as the bread & wine (being blessed) in the Lord's supper: as both the Apostle, and reason of the thing manifests. Whereas the place which I use (though for a religious action to be performed in it) whether in the temple, or in mine own house, hath only the consideration of a natural and civil circumstance. The temple as a temple (which yet I do not think is done in England by any either received doctrine, or la) may be made an Idol, by consecration: and yet every particular place in it not made unlawful for all uses. If any further object, that in preaching, & hearing God's Word therein, we have a religious use of it, they err, not considering, that though the work done be religious, yet the place is no more religious therefore, than the time in which I do it. Time and place are natural circumstances, and without which no finite action can be performed: and some time, and place more comodious & fit, than others for the doing of things of all kinds. I have no more religious use of the place in which I hear publicly, them in which I pray privately in my house or chamber. 16. OBJECTION. Seing whatsoever is not of faith is sin, what word of God, and so of faith is therefore this practice? ANSWER. Every scripture that either commands Mat. 7. 24. the hearing of God's word, Luk. 11. 28. & promiseth a blessing to them that 1. Pet. 2. 5. hear and keep it: Tit. 3. 1. or that commands me to edify and built to myself: Heb. 12. 14. or to obey the Magistrate; or to follow after peace; or to prevent offences, 1. Cor. 10. 32. warrants, and in cases, enjoins this practice: supposing no sin to be in the way; of which in answering the former objections (to which I suppose all other of wait or colour may be referred) I hope I have cleared it. And for any unsatisfied, or other wise minded, I wish I knew their reasons either for their good by a sufficient answer to be given unto them; or for mine own, by admitting of them, as there may appear wait in them. In the mean while, let me entreat of the differently minded, one way, or other, that they would exercise mutually that true christian charity one toward another, and compassion one of another's infirmities, which becomes all, that will be in truth, and deed, followers of Christ jesus: & which is most needful (specially in things of this kind, for the preserving of the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. Which bond of peace whilst men are not careful to keep inviolated, by brotherly for bearance, in matters of this nature, they miserable dissipate, and scatter themselves, and one another; even as the ears in a sheaf are scattered, when the bond breaketh. But as few or no good things of any kind are so well used by some, but others as much abuse them: so is it to be feared, that there will not want, who will change their lawful liberty this way into lawless licentiousness, and so take up in steed of all other religious exercises: a hearing course only. And those specially of them, who disliking the present churchstate in England, yet want due zeal, and love to that which themselves approve. Let me a little turn my speech to such, for the preventing in some, and remedying in others of that inordinate and broken course. And first I demand of such, what is this course of hearing such ministers, as whose stare of ministry they approve not? Is it any particular ordinance left by Christ, and enjoined all christians in all ages and places? Verily no. It were to be wished that no church-ministerie were to be found, which is not approvable by the Word of God, notwithstanding any good act performed by them that possess it. This hearing is only a work of natural liberty in itself, as I have showed, and sanctified to believers by their faith. It is lawful to use it upon occasion, as it is to borrow of other men: but to make it our course, is to live by borrowing, which no honest man, that can do otherwise possibly, would do. Yea what differs it from a kind of spiritual vagabondry in him that can mend it, though with some difficulty, to live in no certain church-state, and under no church-order, and government. To print deep in our hearts the conscience of our duties this way; let us briefly consider how many bonds of necessity the Lord hath laid upon us, to walk in the followshippe, & under the ordinances of the ministerial and instituted-church. First, we have lying upon us the necessity of obedience to Christ our Lord in the commission Apostolical enjoining, that after we be made disciples, as the word is, Mat. 28. 19 20. and baptised we be withal taught to observe whatsoever he hath commanded, It must not then suffice us, that we are disciples, and christians, but we must join hearewith the entire observation of all the ordinances of Christ (as we can find means) from the greatest to the least. And let us beware that like the Scribes & Pharisees, Mat. 5. 19 20. we call none of God's commandments little, because we would make ourselves, and others believe, that little, and light account is to be made of observing them: lest we ourselves be called little, that is, be indeed none in the kingdom of heaven. Our sins of ignorance and humane frayly, alas, are to many, let us not add thereunto presumptuous sins either of commission, or omission, to provoke God withal. 2. The church, and ministrations therein are not needless, but most needful means sanctified of God, and given of Christ for our salvation and edification thereunto: Act 2. 47. which he that despiseth, that is, Eph. 4. 11 doth not submit his soul and body unto (as he hath means) and converse therein with good conscience though in affliction & persecution, despiseth not man, but God and Christ to the depriving of himself of the fruit of Gods most gracious presence in his house and temple, 1. Tim. 3. 15. where he hath promised to dwell and of Christ's ascension into heaven for the pouring out of all kingly gifts and largesses upon men for the work of the ministry. 2. Cor. 6. 16. 3. Our great infirmities whereof both the scriptures every where, and our own experience warn us, show in what great need we stand of all the Lords holy ordinances, and institutions for the supplying of what is wanting in us; and correcting of what is a miss; and continuing, and increasing of what is good, unto the coming of the Lord: where we must also take knowledge, and remember, that it is on note of difference, and the same very clear, between the wisdom of the flesh, and the wisdom of the spirit, that the former will be sure to provide for the body, and outward man, what may be: though with danger, and prejudize of the spiritual: the other will take care and order, for the spiritual state though the outward pinch for it. And if any out of the view, and persuasion of his own strength of grace come to conceive, that he stands in no such need of Christ's ordinances, or of any christian followshippe for the dispensing of them: let such a man consider, that the less need he hath of others by reason of his greater plenty of grace received, the more need others have of him for their supply. But whatsoever any imagine of himself, the Apostle, who was not partial, teacheth, that the very head (the chief and highest member) can not say to the feet (the lowest and meanest members) I have no need of you. 1. Cor. 12. 21. 4. And lastly, it is necessary for our sound, and entire comfort with the Lord our God, that our obedience be entire in respect of all his holy commandments, which we do, or can discern to be such, and to concern us, according to that of the man of God, Psa. 119 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect to all thy commandments. That so we may have our part in the testimony given by the holy Ghost of Zachary and Elizabeth: Luk. 1. 5. 6. which was, that they were righteous before God, walking in all the commandments, & ordinances of the Lord, blameless. That is, both in the moral precepts, and sacred ceremonies, and institutions of the Lord, Whose examples we in our place, and times are to follow, not balking with the Lord in any thing, great, or small: nor seeking starting holes whereby to escape from him, in his word, which is wholly good and pure. Good, as coming from our good God, Pro. 30. 5. Heb. 6. 5. good in itself: and good for us, if we converse therein as we ought; in good conscience towards God, zeal for his ordinances, modesty in ourselves, and charity towards other men: specially towards them, with whom God hath joined us in the most and best things: taking heed lest, by any uncharitable either judgement of, or withdrawing from their persons, for such humane frailties, as unto which, into one kind, or other, all Adam's sinful, posterity are subject; we sinne not more by our course held against them, than they by theirs in them, which God forbidden. To conclude. For myself, thus I believe with my heart before God, and profess with my tongue, and have before the world, that I have one and the same faith, hope, spirit, baptisin, and Lord which I had in the church of England and none other: that I esteem so many in that church, of what state, or order soever, as are truly partakers of that faith (as I account many thousand to be) for my christian brethren: and myself a fellow-member with them of that one mystical body of Christ scattered far and wide throughout the world: that I have always in spirit, and affection all christian fellowship, and communion with them, and am most ready in all outward actions▪ & exercises of Religione lawful & lawfully done, to express the same: & withal, that I am persuaded the hearing of the word of God there preached, in the manner, and upon the grounds formerly mentioned, both lawful, and upon occasion, necessary for me & all true christians, with drawing from that Hierarchical order of church government, and ministry, and the appartenances thereof: and uniting in the order, and ordinances instituted by Christ, the only King, and Lord of his Church, and by all his disciples to be observed: and lastly, that I cannot communicate with, or submit unto the said Church-order, and ordinances there established, either in state, or act, without being condemned of mine own heart, and therein provoking God, who is greater than my heart, to condemn me much more. And for my failings (which may easily be too many) one way, or other, of ignorance hearin, and so for all my other sins, I most humbly crave pardon first, and most at the hands of God. And so of all men, whom therein I offend, or have offended any manner of way: even as they desire, and look that God should pardon their offences. FINIS. HERE FOLLOWETH A true Copy of a Letter, sent to London written by the Author of the former Treatise, and read in public, and by the whole consent of the Church was sent to London, in answer to a letter sent by the Church of London to the Church of Amstelredam and Leyden. Which we have thought good to Print: only to let the World see, what the Churchs' opinion was of hearing in England, the contents whereof followeth. TO OUR BELOVE IN THE Lord, the Church of Christ in London, Grace and Peace from God the giver thereof: and in him our loving salutations. IT may seem strange unto you brethren, and that not without cause that we should have deferred thus long our answer unto your letter; and as unseasonable that after so long delay, we should now frame an answer. Our defence in the former case is, partly, the other churches keeping the same so long in their hands, before they sent it unto us; and partly their contentions arising about it, of which we both desired to see some issue, and hoped withal, that by occasion thereof, we might come to communicate our counseills together; as we conceive, by your joint letter, your desire to have been. But both in vain. For the letter then, (partly fearing, lest we should seem to neglect you: and partly hoping that some use might be made thereof for after times, and occasions,) we thought it better late them never to address this our answer: yet so as you are in the first place to be entreated by the Pastor of the church hear, to take knowledge, that he was not very willing to read publicly that your letter for two reasons, The one, a loathness that either strangers or brethren, should take knowledge of that in ordinate, and lawless course held by such there, as both in regard of their years, and learning, and especially of their place in the church, should have being an example, to the rest in wisdom, sobriety, and Christian forbearance, specially in a case threating division, and dissipation: following therein Christ our great high Priest, who being touched, with the feeling of our infirmities, can have compassion of the ignorant. Heb. 4. and 5. The true natural mother would not consent to have the living child derided, but the counterfeit was easily moved thereunto, how earnest soever she seemed to have it accounted hers. secondly, For that he conceives it not orderly, that the bodies of churches should be sent to for counseil, but some choice persons. Power and unauthoritie is in the body, for elections & censures, but counseil for direction in all affairs, in some few. In which regard every particular church is appointed its Elderships for ordinary counseillers, to direct it and the members thereof in all difficulties with whom others are also to advice upon occasion, specially ordinary. The Priest's lips should preserve knowledge, & they should seek the Law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts, Malipiero 2. These things premised, our general answer to the questions propounded by you, followeth. You demaind, 1. Whether you have done well in retaining her (to wit, the maid, about whom the difference was) she leaving practice according to her promise? Answer. We judge that therein you did well yea though she had continued her practice, upon occasion, and without neglect of the church, whereof she was a member, how much more leaving it, as she did. Considering the action itself, the hearing of the word of God, the great provocations she had thereunto; the state of the other church, about which your next question is moved, and with all these, that excommunication is the heaviest censure which the church can inflict for the most heinous offence most obstinately stood in, we deem it against that brotherly forbearance, which the stronger owes to the weaker, so severely to censure, a failing (so supposed) of that kind. To their assertion that she was an Idolater having broken the 2. Commandment for that Mr. jacob's people were judged Idolators in their going to the assemblies; and therefore from. 1. Cor. 5. If any called a brother be an Idolater, etc. We answer, that hear are diverse consequences & collections, made, without rule of charity, or ground of truth. To grant (as the truth is) that many things in the assemblies are against the second Commandments: which forbids nothing, but Idolatry expressly; and by consequence whatsoever tends thereunto: and withal that Mr. jacob's people did partake with divers of these evils: yet we deny it to agree, either with christianity, or civility, in common course of speech, to calenge every such practice, as the committing of of Idolatry, or such person, as Idolators. The Lord jesus teacheth, Math. 5. 21. 22. that all unadvised anger is against the sixth commandment, Thou shalt do no murder. Is therefore every man that manifests upon occasion, any the least unadvised anger to be challenged as a committer of murder, or murderers so by proportion, every less modest word, gesture, or fashion of apparel, is against the seventh commandemsnt, Thou shalt not commit adultery: Every wronging of another by negligence, unprovidence, or partial affections (which every one less, or more bears to himself) though but in a half penny, against the eight commandment, Thou shalt not steal, are all therefore so doing to be pronouncied and prosecuted, as thiefs and adulterers {reversed}? By these vain collections, and bold challenges, searse any so good and godly, but might be branded, as Idolators, ●heefes, murderers, adulterers, and what not. For who can understand his errors, and secret faults {reversed}? words are unto things as clothes unto the body. And as it were a vain course to put upon a child a man's coat, though never so costly, to make him seem a man, so is not only vain, but also injurious to put upon the things which we dislike, odious phrases; though taken out of the very seriptures, to make them seem worse then in truth then are. Indeed he that is under the Law, & judgement thereof, doing the least evil against the 1. or 2. commandment is an Idolater, and against the 6. 4 murderer, and so for the rest, in regard of God, and the rigour of justice: whom yet for men so to call and prosecute, were rash and rude at the least: But now if the person can in respect of other good things, by the word of God & utmost extent of charity be deemed to have any the least interest in the grace of the gospel, to censure such a one as an idolator, thief, murderer, and the like, is against both charity and godliness: The Apostle, 2. Cor. 6. teacheth us to judge, and speak otherwise, where he calls such of the Christian Corinthians, as by occasion of friends & corruptions of times were drawn to partake in the Idol feasts, and tables of devils (of which they had also before been by him most seriously admonished, 1. Cor. 8. & 10.) Righteousness, light, Christ, believers, and the Temple of God; opposed to unbelievers, unrighteousness, etc. As it is one thing to have sin, which if we say we have not, we deceive ourselves, & the truth is not in us; and another thing, to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase, 1. john 1. Psal. 1. 5. john 9 3. 29. so all that practice through ignorance, or infirmity, some acts (less discernible) of Idolatry, are not Idolators: but such in whom it reigneth in action or disposition. Lastlie, If all in the church of England, and of Mr. jacob's, church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks: then are they all excluded from the kingdom of God, 1. Cor. 6. 9 10. and are under the curse and condemnation of the law, which censure the most rigid this way have disclaimed, as rash and unjust. secondly, Whether Mr. jacob's congregation, be a true church or no? We have so judged, and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam, and the body of the church with them, as we conceive: and so do we judge still, having sent you with our letter a copy of certain papers in which that matter is handled. Thirdly, Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are received, and retained in our churches by that covenant, which they made with God in Mr. jacob's church, or whether they have renounced it as false, and made an other {reversed}? Answer. Their receiving, hear, was only by that covenant made with God, and the church there continued, and none otherwise, the persons having testimony, and dismission from the church there, and so were in the virtue of the same covenaut, by us commended, and conveyed to that other church in Amstelredam. Fourthly, To your fourth demand about your carriage towards your Teacher, & other brethren renouncing communion with you, it is both unseasonable now to answer, and difficult for us, who are ignorant of such circumstances▪ and manners of carriage by them, as by which offences are much agreevated, or extennated Fifthly, Whether their pretence of having the truth be sufficient to make them the church, and to warrant their above mentioned dealing {reversed}◊? Answer, Neither the pretence of having, nor the having of the truth indeed, makes the church in the sense in hand: no more than the having some other particular commendable virtue, by some makes them the church excluding them that want its. As Revelat. 2. and 3. The visible, and ministerial church is the whole body, & every member thereof. Not some parts, Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members have more comeliness, and some less. The church is a state spiritual and political: not personal error therefore or other sin makes any cease to be a member thereof. And if the greater number be members still, though inerrour: the smaller cannot be the body. Besides, if some particular sin, or error make the greatest part, not to be members, then much more two or three particulars. Which thereupon the church might not censure for any error or other sin, to wit, if they were not members: Lastly, this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground, that the church cannot err. Sixtly, Whether women have voices with men in the judgements of the churches? Answer. The Apostle teacheth plainly, the contrary, 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak particularly of prophe●ing and teaching, yet lays he down a more general rule, forbidding all such speaking, as in which authority is used, that is usurped over the man, which is done specially in judgements. And if a woman may not so much as move a question in the church for her instruction, how much less may she give a voice, or utter a reproof for censure? And this answer we return at the length, brethren, to your letter and demands, & therewith our loving salutations in the Lord. In whom wishing your peace and welfare, we rest. Your loving brethren john Robinsz. and church with him. Leyden 5. April, 1624. FINIS.