i U6 Cornell University Library HE6455.U5 Rural free delivery servlce.Hearings bef 3 1924 013 928 274 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE HEARINGS BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES SIXTY-SIXTH CONGEESS FIRST SESSION ON H. J. RES. 33 DIRECTING THE POSTMASTER GENERAL TO SUSPEND THE OPERATION OP ORDERS ISSUED BY HIM, EFFECTIVE MAY 1, 1919, AND JUNE 1, 1919, CHANGING OR ALTERING RURAL DELIVERY ROUTES, AND TO RESTORE TO THEIR FORMER STATUS ROUTES CHANGED OR ALTERED BY ORDERS EFFECTIVE MAY 1, 1919 JULY 8 AND 9, 1919 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1919 COMMITTEE ON THE POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS. House of Representatives, Sixty-sixth Congeess. HALVOR ItBBNERSON, Minnesota, Chairman. MARTIN B. MADDEN, Illinois. WILLIAM W. GRIEST, Pennsylyania. CALVIN D. PAIGE, Massachu,setts. HARRY C. WOODYAED, West Virginia. C. WILLIAM RAMSEYEH. Iowa. ARCHIE D. SANDERS, New York. SAMUEL A. KENDALL, rfnn,sylvania. JAMES W. DUNBAR, Indiana. CLEVELAND NEWTON, Missouri. GUY U. HARDY, Colorado. HOMER HOCH, Kansas. C. ELLIS MOORE, Ohio. JOHN A. MOON, Tennessee. THOMAS M. BELL, Georgia. ARTHUR B. ROUSE, Kentucky. FRED L. BLACKMON, Alabama. EDWARD E. HOLLAND, Virginia. EUGENE BLACK, Texas. CHARLES II. RANDALL, California. HENRY M. GOLDEOGLE, New York. Feedeeick C. Riedesel, Clerli. SUBCOMMITTEE. Hon. ARCHIE D. SANDERS, Chairman. Hon. SAMUEL A. KENDALL. Hon. CALVIN DEWITTd PAIGE. Hon. C. WILLIAM RAMSEYER. Hon. EUGENE BLACK. Hon. FRED L. BLACKMON. Hon. EDWARD E, HOLLAND. CONTENTS. statement of: Page. Hon. Norman J. Gould, a Representative from the State of New York 5 Hon. George H. Moses, United States Senator from the State of New Hampshire 8 Mr. S. J. Lowell, Master of the New York State Grange, Fredonia, N. Y. . 14 Mr. H. E. Babcock, Secretary of the New York State Federation of County Farm Bureaus Association, Ithaca, N. Y 29 Mr. W. N . Giles, Secretary of the New York State Grange 38 Mr. C. Fre'd Boshart, President of the New York State Agricultural Society 45 Mr. Leslie R. Smith, Master of the Massachusetts State Grange 49 Mr. John A. McSparren, Master of the Pennsylvania State Grange 50 Hon. Walter W. Magee, a Representative in Congress from the State of Ne York - 54 Hon. James I. Blakslee, Fourth Assistant Postmaster General 58 Mr. W. J . Satterfield, post office inspector 71 Mr. John J. Kessel, postmaster, Syracuse, N. Y 72 Mr. William Nacey, postmaster, Oswego, N. Y 82 Mr. D. E. Sullivan, postmaster, Canton. N. Y 88 Mr. L. G. Quackenbush, postmaster, Oneida, N. Y 92 Mr. J. M. Dwyer, postmaster, Geneseo, N. Y 94 Mr. J. W. McKnight, postpaaster, Castleton, N . Y 96 Mr. Thomas J. Gallagher, postmaster, Geneva, N. Y 96 Mr. William C. Brigham, post office inspector 98 Mr. 1j. M. Dow, chief clerk, Office of the Fourth Assistant Postmaster General 106 Hon. Luther W. Mott, a Representative in Congress from New York 108 »1 Cornell University Library The original of tiiis bool< is in tine Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924013928274 EUEAL FREE DELIVEEY SEEVIOE. Subcommittee of the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, House of Representatives, Tuesday, July 8, 1919. The subcommittee met at 10.30 a'clock a. m., Hon. Archie D. Sanders (chairman) presiding. Mr. Sanders. It is understood that this hearing is called on the resolution introduced by Mr. Gould, the same being House Joint Resolution No. 33, and if there is no objection on the part of the committee, I Avill ask Mr. Gould to present his views. STATEMENT OF HON. NORMAN J. GOULD, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK. Ml-. Gould. ISIr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee. House Joint Resolution No. 33, directing the Postmaster General to sus- pend the operation of orders issued by him, effective May 1, 1919, and June 1, 1919, changing or altering rural delivery routes, and to restore to their former status routes changed or altei'ed by orders effective May 1, 1919, viiich was introduced by me on May 19, has been referred to your committee. I can only say that there is no disposition on my part, nor, so far as I know, on the part of any of those on the rural routes that have been affected by the changes, to have the Post Office Department gain the impression that there is anything other than a spirit or desire for cooperation in the attempt to serve all of the people and patrons of the rural routes of the country in the best manner possible. That is our book. There have been in New York State to my personal knowledge, over a period of three years various and sundry changes in the routes. Routes have been eliminated, post offices have been abolished, and in many parts of the State great confusion has re- sulted. In my own district I have had the matter brought to my attention by many of the patrons of the routes and have attempted to bring the matter to the attention of the department in such a way that the changes would not make trouble for the patrons of the routes. I can say that my reception has been courteous, but that re- sults have not very frequently been obtained. The chief complaint which I have is that evidently combinations of routes are made by some one taking maps down in' the Post Office Department, laying out a combination of three or four routes, and combining them into two new routes by added mileage, which frequently puts the patron of the route in the position of having an express ancl freight address in one town or city and a mail address somewhere else. 5 6 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Afi a matter of illustration, I want to cite the instance of a woman at Waterloo, N. Y., which is 4 miles from home. Her letterhead shows her mail address to be Waterloo, N. Y., while her express and freight address is Clyde, N. Y., the two towns being about 12 miles apart. I suppose there are dozens and dozens of such instances, but there is no need of going into them because it is a general proposition and it has caused that confusion which we, through the department, wish to correct. This situation developed by reason of the proposed changes in May and June of this year, and the complaints came to such a point that a hearing was requested before Postmaster General Burleson, which was held. Subsequently, Mr. Lowell and others of New York State, Jklr. Lowell being master of the State Grange, ap- peared before ]\Ir. Blakslee and others of his staff in an attempt to go over the matter Avith a view to securing relief. Subsequent to that time, questionnaires, approved, as I understand it, by the Post Office Department, in order to secure definite information, have been sent out, and hundreds of them have been compiled and tabulated, so that they will be at the disposition of the committee and of tlie de- partment. The details of the matter can best be explained, I think, by Mr. Lowell, and with the permission of, the committee I will ask Mr. Lowell, the master of Xew York State Grange, to outline the condi- tions as they have been found to exist throughout the State. I might say fuitlier, however, that the tabulations and lists of individuals on the various routes who may be satisfied or dissatisfied are all sup- ported by facts taken from the questionnaires which were sent out and signed by the individuals, and from which the tabulations have been made, and if the committee or the department wish the support- ing details presented, they are at hand to be filed with the committee or depai'tment, as you may desire. I\Ir. Sanders. Mr. Gould, before you sit down, I would like to ask you one question : Have you any knowledge as to whether the patrons of the rural routes were consulted as to the desirability of the changes estalilished by which their post-office addresses have been changed? ^Ir. Gould. So far as my knowledge is concerned, inquirj' may have been made, but I do not recall hat in any instance petitions i^ro- testing against changes have been followed or adopted. ^Ir. Sanders. Is it not a fact that rural carriers are usually well informed as to the location of the patrons of the routes and as to road conditions in the sections where such routes are located? ^Ir. Gould. Yes, sir. ^Ir. S.VNDEiis. Ai'e they generally consulted I Mr. ( rOULD. Xot so far as I know. I have found in every instance, or in the two or three discussions I have had with the department on the subject, that the matter has been referred back to the local postmaster. I filed petitions which, according to my recollection, were signed by, say, 80 out of 90 patrons of the route protesting against the change, and the postmaster, when such petitions were referred to him by the department, stated that the petitions should not be gi-anted, and the department sustained the postmaster. Mr. Eamseyer. Just to get an idea of what is before us, I would like to ask you a few questions: How many counties in the State of New York, and in what part of the State are they, that are cov- ered by these complaints? KTJKAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 7 Mr. GoTXLD. I should assume that probably two-thirds of the State is aifected, but that detailed information can be given to you by Mr. Lowell in much better form than I can give it. This extends all the way through the State from Buffalo to Albany, and all the way down. Mr. Kamseyer. Have you any idea how many witnesses are here from the State of New York? Mr. Gould. There are four or five men present who have support- ing information which they will give. Mr. Ramseyer. They will be introduced in logical order? Mr. GoxjLD. Yes, sir. Thei'e is another little statement I would like to make which is based upon my experience and contact with this question, and that is that changes in rural routes have fre- quently been made by going over the maps that I referred to, and then, when a request is made to have an inspector ride over the route, very frequently that request has not been complied with. I know of an instance where a route was laid out requiring the carrier to go up hills and through roads which in wintertime may be drifted 5 or 6 feet deep with snow. In that instance it was really a practical and physical impossibility for the carrier to serve his route, and that applies to every place in New York State Avhere in wintertime they have heavy, snow. Mr. Bi^cK. I understand from you that one of the chief com- plaints is that the patrons have their post-office address at one place and their express and freight address at another, and in reference to that I would like to ask this question: If the department finds that it can effect substantial economies by changes in rural routes, without decreasing the efficiency of the service to the patrons, do you think that it ought to hold back those changes merely because to make them would cause the patrons to have a post-office address different from their freight and express address ? Mr. Gould. Well, that is a question which I think it would be ad- visible for the inspector in charge of that part of the territory where the route is operating to take up. I, myself, am not sufficiently expert in such matters to say, but I feel sure that all of those whom I know on the various rural routes in New York State have no ob- jection whatever to having money saved in the administration of the Rural Delivery Service. The question is whether or not it might be what I would term a penny-wise and pound-foolish kind of saving. Mr. Black. I was anxious to get your viewpoint upon that specific question. Mr. Gould. I do not advocate continuing a service where there is waste, and I do not believe that the people on the riiral routes wish that. Mr. Ramsey'ee. What do you think they want — to save money or to have efficient service ? Mr. Gould. They want efficient service at the minimum cost. Mr. Sanders. I understand that Senator Moses, of New Hamp- shire, is present, and would like to make a statement at this time. KUKAL FKEE DELIVEKY SERVICE. STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE H. MOSES, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE. Senator Moses. JNIr. Chairman, I ask to be heard thus early in the course of the hearing because I have committee engagements at the other end of the Capitol. I wish to appear in very emphatic sup- port of the Gould resolution, and like the author of the resolution, 1 come in no spirit of criticism of the Post Office Department, because my reception, in connection with such complaints as I have laid before the department, has been very courteous, and thus far I am unable to register complaint of any lack of results. I suppose that Avith the passage of time, however, there may be a change in that condition of affairs, and then I will be joining my friend, Mr. Gould, in that complaint also. The particular complaint which I wish to register in behalf of my own State in connection with the changes which have recently l)een proposed, some of which effect an entire rearrangement of the Rural Delivery Service in some sections of the State, is that they have apparently been made without any accurate knowledge or study of the local conditions involved along the route which ought to be served. It so happens that my State is a very small one, and in the course of an active political cai-eer I think I have traveled over every mile of highway in the State. I used to say last summer that I had rung W) per cent of the doorbells in the State, shaken 95 per cent of the hands, and kissed S."> per cent of the babies in the State. Therefore. I think I am pretty thoroughly familiar with the conditions that exist in the State, especially in the rural sections, where I have visited A'ei'v frequently. New Hampshire is a State with a peculiar indus- try, namely, the summer boarding industry. There is hardly a village in the State where there are not some summer boarding estab- lishments, and every country district is filled with farm houses where a great many summer \isitors come. The chief complaint which comes to me from those sections of the State in connection with these changes in rural routes is that the changes have been made in such wise that many of those summer boarding establishments are de- prived of the mail service which they formerly had. The specific complaint which I have to make about the changes that have been outlined in New Hampshire is that the changes have been made upon the report and recommendation of inspectors who are wholly un- familiar with the local conditions. It so happens, Mr. Chairman, that in a section of New Hampshire which I visited only last week the proposed changes in rural routes were made liy an inspector from the State of Texas. While I do not wish to impugn the judgment of any man from the State of Texas, it seems to me that one who is accustomed to the wide expanses and plains of that imperial South- western Commonwealth can not enter into the sjiirit of the condi- tions which exist in a rocky and hilly State like New Hampshire. I think also that what Mr. Gould has said in reference to the maps is important — tliat is, to take a map Avhich shows no contour of the country and which gives no idea of the physical configuration of the territory, and to run a mileage instrument over it to show the exact number of miles which may be brought into the rural route, is not an accurate or satisfactory method of establishing rural routes. While it is possible, and I would be willing to state absolutely that RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 9 some of the routes which had previously been established may have been changed to some ad^■untage, nevertheless, inasmuch as the routes in my State have been in existence about 19 years, it is more likely that the routes as they were existing in the month of May as the re- sult of the gradual development of the Rural Free Delivery System were more satisfactory, since they embodied the experience of all those years, than those established as the result of changes which may be made simi3ly from a study of the map. My whole hope is that the result of this investigation or this hearing, or the passage of this resolution, perhaps, will bring the Post Office Department to the frame of mind where they will approach the study of these changes in the rural routes, not from the departmental point of view, and not from the point of view of a bureau chief here in Washington, but from the point of view of the people who are residing along the routes ; and that the changes that may be made and the readjustments that may be put into effect, and that the new routes that may be laid out may be undertaken with a view to serving the communities from the basis of intelligence or information gained by an accurate sur- vey of the conditions. I think that there are many of those routes which might, perhaps, be improved, but I do not think that improvement can be obtained by a cursory, long-range examination, such as is now apparently being made in connection with those routes. In connection with one other point that Congressman Gould has touched upon, and which the chairman brought out in the course of his interrogations, I want to say that in my opinion the people do not care to have the Post Office Department make money; they do not care to hai'e it a m.oney-making institution, but what they want - iw efficient service. They would rather pay the excess cost for the maintenance of the Post Office Department than to suffer any diminution in the service that they have been receiving. Mr. Sanders. Senator, do you hold that the passage of this reso- lution, as drawn, would be desirable, setting back all of the routes to the conditions that existed on May 1 and June 1, 1919? Senator Moses. Probably not. I have no doubt that in some in- stances that should not be done. Mr. Sanders. Then, you think that language should be modified? Senator Moses. Undoubtedly. I do not take the point of view that the rural deliveiy routes of the country as they existed at any date were frozen into such solid form as to require a special dispen- sation from the league of nations to bring about any change in them. Mr. Bamseyer. What kind of roads have you in New Hampshire? Senator Moses. The roads in New Hampshire for the most part are very good. The State has expended several million dollars in the last 10 years in improving its roads, and that work is going on now. Mr. Ramseyee. Have you hard roads or dirt roads ? Senator Moses. For the most part the roads have macadam sur- facing. Mr. Ramseyee. Do you know how many rural routes you have in New Hampshire, or how many you had last spring? Senator Moses. I think we have now about 320. I do not recollect how many there were last spring. Mr. Ramseter. I wanted to know how many had been cut out. 10 EUEAL PEEE DELIVERY SERVICE. Senator Moses. I do not think a very large percentage of them were. Mr. Eajiseyee. Do you know how many routes have been changed ? Senator Moses. I have complaints from four that I have per- sonally investigated, and I do not recall how many other complaints I have had. My impression, however, is that the number of changes made in routes in New Hampshire has not been very large in pro- portion to the number of routes in the State, but the changes that have been made have been of a nature which seemed to be particu- larly irritating, inasmuch as at this season of the year they inter- fered with the summer boarding industry which right now is at its- height. Mr. Blakslee. Senator, there has not been a change made in any rural route in Xew Hampshire since 1916. Senator Moses. What about those that have been made at Eiver- dale ? ^Nlr. Blakslee. Those that have been changed in the last year wei'e changed upon the petition of the patrons of the routes or resi- dents along the routes. Senator Moses. What about that at Etna? ^Ir. Blakslee. Xone of them have been changed as the result of primary action by the department within a year. Senator Moses. Have they been changed by reason of petitions from certain communities that were not served ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. Senator Moses. So as to bring service to them ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. Senator Moses. Is it not true that in most of those cases where changes have been made in New Hampshire you have taken in fewer families than you have discommoded? Mr. Blakslee. I do not find it so. There has been no change any- where in the country where we have not taken in more families than were formerly served. Senator Moses. I have been up in New Hampshire for a few days,, and I went over four of the routes from which the complaints were coming to me, and in all four cases I found it to be the fact that fewer would be served by the changes. Mr. Blakslee. Since 1916 no changes have been made, except those requested by the patrons. Senator Moses. That is, upon requests that were made by people- who were not being served ? ]\Ir. Blakslee. Yes, sir. Senator Moses. I think that is quite true ; but my information with regard to those routes, and I went over them within the last 10 days, is to the effect that the number of familjes who had previously been' served but who are now left without service was larger than the number of families taken on as a result of the changes. Mr. Blakslee. That is a mistake. I think you will find that to be a mistake. We can give you the exact figures, so that there will be no mistake about it. There are about 243 routes in New Hampshire. Senator Moses. I thought there were more than that. IN'Ir. Blakslee. I would like to correct an impression that may re- main in the minds of the committee relative to the method by which' these changes are made. We do review the map when we make- ETJRAli FBBE DEUVEBY SERVICE. 11 those changes, but we also have before us the reports made by the_ postmasters at the several offices that may be affected. In some instances the reports are inaccurate, and they are subject to re- vision. After we have made changes in routes we usually, and I think I might say in 75 per cent of the cases, send inspectors to the affected localities, and upon the return of their reports we make definite office revision of the changes. They are put into effect or operation after possibly two weeks or more of notice to the patrons, and there are none of those preliminary or primary establishments ordered permanently into effect at that time, but they are all subject to readjustment thereafter upon the receipt of the type of complaints or petitions that have been compiled by Mr. Lowell, the master of the State Grange of New York, and others. I think they can testify to the thoroughness with which we readjust any differences. So that these changes are not, as you think, worked out solely from a map. Senator Moses. I understand that; but I understand that in two instances in New Hampshire, the inspector who was supposed to go over the route, or proposed route, did not traverse any part of it. Mr. Blakslee. As you know, inspectors, like all other classes of employees, are not infallible in these days. Senator Moses. I do not want to hold the Post Office Department responsible for an indolent subordinate. Of coui'se I understand that. ill'. Blakslee. I do not want you to feel that the department has made any changes in New Hampshire without proper investigations during the last two years, at least, because there has been none made of that character. Mr. Moon. Senator, what is your understanding of this resolu- tion^ Is it the purpose of the resolution to abolish the order of May 1, 1919, and of June 1, 1919, as to New Hampshire and New York, or does it affect the routes of the whole country ? Senator !Moses. I do not understand that any legislation enacted here would be parochial in its character. I understand that any action taken by Congress would be national in its scope. Of course, the purpose of this resolution would be to affect all of the rural routes of the country, but I do not undertake to speak for any sec- tion of the country except my own. Mr. Moon. Then, as you understand it, the resolution affects all of the routes of the United States ? Senator Moses. I would assume that it did, but I would like to refresh my recollection by examining it. Undoubtedly it would affect all of them. Mr. Moon. Then it is the desire of those who favor the resolution to leave all of the routes as they existed previous to those dates, or in the exact shape that they were in ? Senator Moses. I just stated that I did not think that those routes as they existed upon a fixed date had been frozen into such perma- nent form that they should not be changed at all. Mr. Moon. If this resolution were passed, would it not have that effect ? Senator Moses. If you followed the exact language of the resolu- tion, that would be the effect, but I would expect the committee 12 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. j\IooN (interiDosing). You think there ought to be some amend- ments, then, to this resohition? Senator Mosks. It should be. If I were drawing it at the otlier end of the Capito]. I would put it in different form; but I presume that Congressman Gould wants to take the most direct route to accom- plish what he is after, namely, to bi'ing to the attention of the com- mittee of Congress and of the country the changes that have been made, and in that way to bring about a discussion in order to secure a basis for congressional action to remedy the condition. Mr. ]Moo^^ Do you not think it would be impossible for the Con- gress of the United States to pass a resolution affecting all of those routes ? Is not that really a matter of administration ? Where there has been any error made as to a particular route, ought it not to be so investigated as to determine the conditions on that particular route, and would not that be an interminable job for Congress to undertake ? Senator Moses. I do not think that Congress should go into pavo- chial legislation or that Congress should legislate respecting every rural route. If you want to know what I think is the fundamental trouble here. I will tell you. I think it is due to the imwise eco- nomical policy adojDted Ijv the Post Office Department. As I said before, I do not believe that the people of the country care a rap whether the Post Office Department makes monej' or not, provided they have efficient service. I think that the whole scheme of inspec- tion with reference to changes in rural routes might be altered through congressional action or, possiblj^, Avithout congressional ac- tion, so that all action taken with reference to the establishment of new routes and the changing of old routes could be taken with much more j^erfect information than the department has had in certain cases that I knoAv of. Mr. Moon. You are speaking of isolated cases, and you can not legislate about them. It would not be possible for Congress to lay down a plan of administration affecting all of those routes in the United States by one general rule. Senator Moses. I would not hesitate to say that after all of your years of experience at the head of this committee it would be im- possible for you to lay down a general rule under which this Rural Delivery Service could be covered. Mr. Mdox. I did not understand that. Senator Moses. I would hesitate to think that after all of your experience you are incapable of laying down a general rule under which all of these rural routes might be covered. Mr. Moon. You understand that there has already been a law enacted on the subject, and the department is simply administerino- the law. Xow, if all these routes are not to be held to what they are, or if there are to be any changes made in them, it seems to me that there ought to be, if the resolution is to be passed at all, a plan that is comprehensive enough to reach the defects in the system that is now being followed in the Post Office Depai'tment, and, that being true, I ask you what, in your judgment, ought to be done about it? You seem to think, as I do, that it would not do to pass the resolution in its present form. Senator Moses. I think that that portion of the resolution which calls for the suspension of order is quite within the purview of the KUKAL PEEK DELIVERY SERVICE. 13 committee and quite within the scope of the complaints that have been made. I think, in addition to that, that there should be some provision for a different method of inspection, establishment, and maintenance of the rural routes. In other words, Mr. Moon, I do not think it possible, with the kind of inspection which I have observed to have taken place in my State, coupled with the review which takes place here in a bureau office — I do not think that that method is adequate to deal intelligently with the situation. My own impres- sion is that it would be much better to have a corps of local or divi- sional or regional inspectors who would deal with this matter, men who were f amililar with the character of the country to be served rather than the practice now followed, as I have observed in New Hampshire, namely, the sending of men from remote portions of the country in to the Northeastern States, where they make a very cursory examination, and in one instance, as I know, where they went over only about 4 miles of a route that was 22.7 miles in length, as I recall. Mr. Moon. There may be an executive duty along that line, butj as a matter of fact, the inspectors do go, or are presumed to go, over the ground and make a report, but the final orders must be made by the department. What sort of an amendment would you recommend to this resolution that would bring about the result that you think is essential for the best service? Senator Moses. I am not prepared at this moment, Mr. Moon, to put that in the form of words, but what I have already said covers what is in my mind in that connection. Mr. Sanders. 1 believe you stated you did not favor the passage, of this resolution just as it is? Senator Moses. I did say that. I said I did not favor the passage of this resolution in this exact wording, but I am not prepared to give the exact form of words in which I would have it redrafted. In gen- eral terms, however, I have already stated that I think some new method of dividing the country into zones or regions or divisions, for the purpose of inspection and recommendation with reference to rural routes, would be desirable. Mr. Moon. I think you are probably correct in the suggestion that a man who lives in a flat or plains country, and who is not familiar with mountainous section, is probably not the best man to lay out a route in a mountainous country. Senator Moses. I am very sure of that. Mr. Moon. I rather think that is correct, but that is a matter of administration. I do not know what can be done by way of legisla- tion along that line unless Congress should undertake to designate the character of inspector who shall perform the duty. The law noTV requires an inspection by some inspector and a report by him, and it mav be that the department is wrong in sending to the mountains States inspectors who live in plains country, but how we are to remedy that by a resolution I do not know. Mr- Paige. Do you not think the trouble comes largely from the fact that the present laws are not administered in the best possible manner " Senator Moses. Undoubtedly there is some maladministration of the law as it stands, but I think some of it, as I have observed in New Hampshire, is due to bad judgment on the part of the men who have 14 RTJKAL, FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. been sent there. I would not want to make a sweeping indictment of the manner in which this has been done because I imagine the Post Office Department has been more or less hampered l)y the letter of the law under which they have been operating. Mr. Moon. Is it not true that you find— and I find it so wherever I have had any experience — that there is a great difference of opinion among the people themselves along the routes ? Senator Moses. There is no doubt that the farmer who is getting efficient service believes it is admirable, while the farmer who is not thinks it is rotten. Mr. Moon. Is it possible, under all the existing circumstances in the different localities of the country, to define any general rule by which every farmer on a particular route must get the same service that every other farmer gets, in view of the distance they live apart, and the proximity to the route? Senator Moses. I am not sure about that, and I would not want, ill a minute, to write such a piece of legislation. Mr. Moon. My idea in questioning you. Senator, was to bring out the fact — if that were your opinion — that this resolution in its present shape is not adequate to meet the wishes of the people. Senator Moses. I do not thing it is broad enough. Mr. Blackmon. Senator, if a resolution of this kind, or a similar resolution, passed changing all these orders where routes have been changed, what would be the effect? Do you not think we would have quite as many complaints from people wli,ere we had started to give them service and then took it away? Do you not think we would have quite a lot of trouble over that ? Senator Moses. Speaking for the country at large I can not answer that, but my observation, from such investigation as I have made in New Hampshire, is that the number of people who are recei^■ing service of which they complain now as against that which the}' re- ceived before is larger than the number benefitted by the changes. Mr. Blackmon. I am speaking to my section. Some changes have been made there and largely made on petitions. Now, I was just A\ ondering what trouble we would be in if we should take that service away from the people who have been having it for some time. Would we not have quite as many complaints as we are having now ; Senator Moses. You would be in exactly the same kind of trouble you are in now, but as to its amount I can not sa^^ Mr. Blackjion. That is the thing I have been thinking over — the question of having given the service and then taking it away from the people. If you did that we would be between the devil and the deep blue sea. Senator Moses. I think that is so. Mr. Sanders. Senator, we thank you very much for your appear- ance. STATEMENT OF MR. S. J. LOWELL, OE FREDONIA, N. Y. Mr. Lowell. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee. I am the master of the New York State Grange, and I am a farmer. Mr. Sanders._ You may go on and make such statement as a'ou wish in regard to this resolution. EXJRAl, TREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 15 Mr. Lowell. I will say that my training has been in the open, where 1 would be able to tackle anything, but in coming before any committee, however kindly they may be, I am a little out of my ele- ment, so I will read to you what I have to say. Members of the subcommittee of the Committee of Post Offices and Post Roads, appointed to investigate conditions of the rural mail service in New York State it is with sincere regret that circum- stances which have arisen in the last two years, with special refer- ence to those of comparatively recent date, compel me to appear be- fore you at this time. Personally, I have not been seriously affected, but this IS not a personal matter with me. As worthy master of the New York State Grange, it is incumbent upon me to protect and ad- vance the interests of its members to the fullest extent of my ability and power, so long as I act within the bounds of the law as prescribed by our statutes, and also the moral law, upon which one's conscience IS his chief guide. It might interest you to know that I am the spokesman of the largest State grange in this country, Avhich has an active membership of about 125,000. From a historical standpoint, it is well for you to know that from the late summer of 1917 right down to the present time there was instituted by the Post Office Department a policy of curtailment of the Rural Free Delivery Service in New York State and elsewhere which eliminated many routes entirely and caused a complete re- vision of routes which remained. That the changes, which were made during the prosecution of the war, did not provoke any wide- spread criticism or complaints, as such action was perhaps justified as a war measure and the rural residents were loath to take any steps which could be construed as an interference with a vigorous prose- cution of the war. They bought their full share of liberty bonds most cheerfully and increased the production of their farms to the utmost. And in many other ways they have shown complete devo- tion to the welfare and best interest of the country. That the changes of 1917 and 1918 in the rural service affected for the most part routes in the western part of the State and, I be- lieve, there were some changes in the eastern portion. As head of the State grange, it is necessary for me to travel widely in the perform- ance of my duties, and so it has been my privilege to ascertain the practical workings of those changes, and it is my duty to inform you that the former satisfactory rural service received a severe blow when the orders of curtailment went into operation. Many persons who formerly received service at their door have been compelled to walk considerable distances to get their mail. Deliveries have been much later as a natural consequence of the extension in mileage of the routes and are less regular. Post offices have been moved from places of long standing to other points which are not practical centers, in that their trading, express, and freight business is not conducted there. This has proven most disastrous in many instances to small -communities and should no longer be tolerated. Until the period of experimentation, commenced in 1917, the rural peopJe of our State and country were fairly well satisfied with mail service. Since then, however, the continual tampering with the revi- sion of routes has brought about a general demoralization which is unendurable under the guise of war's necessities. 16 EUBAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. As aforesaid, it was not my personal wisli to appear before you, but in recent months conditions of rural service have become so utterly bad and I have received such a storm of complaints of inefficiency that in my official capacity it became my unquestionable duty to act in behalf of my brother grangers to the end that they may enjoy the best possible mail service. To continue with the historical development feature, it can be stated that the most far-reaching and radical changes during this period of modifications took place as a result of orders of Postmaster General Burleson issued on or about May 1, 1919. That some 50 routes in central and northern New York State were canceled entirely. _ That other routes wei'e i-emapped and, in most cases extended in mileage,, with the natural result — a widespread dissatisfaction. This was amply shown by 12,000 signed protests, petitions, and complaints,, together with hundreds of personal letters, all of which were sub- mitted to the Postmaster General at a hearing conducted by him on the 18th day of May. These protests were received in less than three- weeks after the order became effective, thus disclosing a spontaneous, and unmistakable discontent with existing conditions. That Mr. Burleson was unmoved by this array of unimpeachable' evidence and would order no changes until investigations were held by Government inspectors in the localities affected. Accordingly there were such so-called investigations conducted by department inspectors. However, these investigations were not conducted in such a fashion as would naturally be expected at public hearings. They promised public hearings, and in no instance did we have one. Sev- eral hundred letters containing individual complaints were turned over to the department, but these complaints were not in the possession of the inspectors on the occasion of the local investigations, so that the true condition of inadequate service were not apparent. That the inspectors apparently had no knowledge of such letters being in the possession of the department. Furthermore, an opportunity for public and open expression of one's complaints, together with the clecision of the inspector in the matter, was not presented. Individual complaints were heard in quiet corners of the room by the inspectors, who were not even pre- pared with complete, up-to-date maps. That the manner in which these meetings were conducted provoked the adoption and passage of resolutions of protest against the charac- ter of the investigations by those present in the following places r Oneida, Madison County; Auburn, Cayuga Countv ; Oswego, Oswego County; Pulaski, Oswego County; and Onondaga. That the passage of these resolutions was bitterly opposed by the inspec- tors. That copies of these resolutions are in my possession and can be loroduced. That the general inefficiency of the service in central Xew York and other parts of the State is well shown l)y the fact that resolutions: of protest were adopted at regular meetings by the Pomona Granges in the following counties: Yates, Erie, jNIontgomery, Herkimer Niagara, Cortland, Oswego, Madison, Onondaga, Saratoga, Monroe Wyoming, Cayuga, Orleans, Columbia, Seneca, Jefferson, Franklin' Clinton, Sullivan, and Onondaga. That copies of tliese resolutions can be produced at any time. KUEAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 17 That resolutions of protest were also adopted and passed by tlu'. iollo\ying organizations : New York State Association of Third and Fourth Class Postmasters, Orange County Farm Bureau, and the Dairymen's League. The latter organization has a membership of To. 000. That copies of these resolutions can be produced. That many other granges ha\e passed similar resolutions, and copies of such resolutions are in our possession. That since the hearing of May 18 at Washington we have received petitions, containing 1,017 signatures for the restoration of many abandoned routes. These can be produced. That many general petitions, containing 318 signatures, for res- toration of the former rural service have been received. That these petitions can be produced. That petitions, complaints, and letters of protest, containing about 3.,000 signatures, were left with the Post Office Department at the time of the hearing on May 18. That about 9,000 formal signed protests are in our possession and will be produced if desired. That subsequently to the official investigations and about' June 3, the State grange tried to learn the present conditions of the Rural Mail Service by the circulation of a questionnaire. That many have responded by answering, and we can furnish u complete summary of same. That this summary reveals the facts that all is not well on the rural routes. Approximately 80 per cent of those received re- vealed dissatisfaction with present service, notwithstanding some res- toration of abolished routes and reari-angement of others. That those who expressed satisfaction with present service fear the winter service will not be prompt or regular. Thai; many persons who are satisfied now live on restored routes. That most of the patrons receive their mail at a later hour than formerly. That a great number of patrons are still compelled to travel consid- erable distances to the mail box. That there is a jDractically unanimous demand for the restoration of the old system. That uncalled-for delay, inconvenience, and confusion have re- sulted from the change of post offices and produced disastrous effects upon the small town as a community center, as the rural people are diverted from their natural trading point. ' That we have in our possession evidence of the forgoing asser- tions; and That Postmaster General Burleson has defined a satisfactory mail service, and we demand that he furnish such a service as he admits we are entitled to, namely : , ( 1 ) Reasonable prompt mail delivery even in bad weather. (2) Mail to go out from post office the day collected on route. (3) A minimum of inconvenience through the change of estab- lished addresses from established post offices. (4) That the post office cooperate to maintain the life and organi- zation of established communities. (5) In the future 100 per cent delivery of mail at the door. (6) Cooperation of post-office officials with farmers organizations. 128079—19 2 lb EUKAL FEF.E DELIVEKY SEBVIOE. In conclusion, gentlemen, what we demand is the best possible service, not such service as was adequate in times before the war but even better service. These are progressive times for the rural com- munities, and we are entitled to an up-to-date service as our right. If you do not secure this for the farming communities, there will be a positive movement awa)' from the farms. We also demand that all mail trains taken otf as a war measure be restored and a better train service installed, that delays in the mail caused from that source may be eliminated. I will say that a large amount of the trouble comes from the elimi- nation of mail service. ^lail gets into the office after the train has left, and no mail goes out until the next day. This has been much more unusual and severe than it was before the changes were made. I have a summary of the questionnaires that have been sent out. They commenced coming in on June 2ri, and on that clay we received 10 — 8 dissatisfied and 2 satisfied. This summary gives the names of the men, their addresses, and the time thev receive their mail, as well as the distance many of them have to travel. I will read over them briefly. On June 26 there were 39 received. 30 dissatisfied and 9 satisfied. The mail is received b^' one man from .5 to 6 p. m., by another from 3 to 4 p. m., and another from 3 to 5 p. m. The ad- dresses of these men are here, so that you can see them. On June -7 we received 31 questionnaires, 20 dissatisfied and 5 satisfied. On June 28 we received 23 questionnaires, 22 dissatisfied and 1 satis- fied. One man walks a mile to get to his mail box. Here is another summar}' on June 28. It does not give the total, but it adds up to 23. Here is one man, S. J. Banta, of Conewango Valley, who says his mail is a day late, as the carrier leaves the office before the. morn- ing mail is in. They get their mail all the way from 2 to 6, 5 to 7, 12 to 4, 3 to 4, Ti and i o'clock in the afternoon. ^Ir. AA'ooD. What is that office? Mr. Lowell. Conewango Valley; and S. J. Banta is the man. On June 30 we leceived 13 questionnaires, 11 dissatisfied and 2 satisfied. Mr. ^Nliles Lounsbury, of Ellicottville, travels a mile to his mail box; INIr. Olson ^1. Case, of Marcellus, travels a mile to his mail box. This mail is received from t; to 7, another man 3, another man 6, and another man from 3 to 1, and so on down the list. On July 1 we I'cceived 11 c|uestionnaires, 8 dissatisfied and 3 satisfied; on July 2 we r'eceived 20 (]uestionnaires, 23 dissatisfied and 3 satisfied. Mr. W. H. Sands travels '2i miles to his mail box. On July 3 we received 21 questionnaires, 18 dissatisfied and 3 satisfied, and the mail there is received all the way from 2 o'clock until 5. These are men who have made out these questionnaires. On July 5 we received 64 question- naires, 27 satisfied and 37 dissatisfied. Mr. Alfred Ogren, of James- town, travels a mile to his box. If I remember rightly, the Post- master General made the statement that no man hacl to travel over a half mile. Mr. Blakslee. Is not that a half mile there and back? Mr. Lowell. I could not tell you. We have one here that travels 4 miles. On July 6 we received 44 questionnaires, 22 satisfied and 20 dissatisfiecl. On June 25 we received 10 questionnaires, 8 dissatis- fied and 2 satisfied. The mail is received between 1 and 5 o'clock in the afternoon._ On June 26 we received 39 questionnaires, 36 dissatis- fied and 9 satisfied. The mail comes in as late as 5 and 6 o'clock in RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 19 the afternoon. On June 27 we received 31 questionnaires, 26 dissatis- fied and 5 satisfied. Mr.' Chester Sartwell, of Mexico, travels a mile and a half on route 4. Mr. Sanders. Does that mean both ways ? Mr. LovsTELL. I do not think so, although I can not tell you. These are the statements as they came in ; the questionnaires are here, and can be seen if you desire. On June 28 there were 23 questionnaires received, 22 dissatisfied and 1 satisfied. Mr. Glen Eccles, of Kennedy, travels 1 mile to his box. On June 30 we received 43 questionnaires, 41 dissatisfied and 2 satisfied. They receive their mail from 6 to 7, at least that is the time Mr. Howard H. Erb, of Moravia, receives his mail. On July 1 we received 11 questionnaires, 8 dissatisfied and 3 satisfied; on July 2, 26 questionnaires received, 23 dissatisfied and 3 satisfied. Mr. W. H. Sands, of Hilton, travels 2J miles to his box. The mail there is received from 2.30 to 7. On July 5 we received 64 questionnaires, 27 satisfied and 37 dissatisfied. That completes the list. (The summary referred to by Mr. Lowell follows :) Junk 25, 1919. Received 10 questionnaires, 8 flissatisfled, 2 satisfied. Demand is general for restoration of old routes and post offices. Jay W. Dingman, Jordon, No. 2, receives mall 4 p. m. W. H. Wheaton, Lysander, receives mail 2 to 5 p. m. Jay W. Townsend, Memphis, No. 2, receives mail 4 p. m. .T. H. Buckner, Hannibal, receives mail 1 to 4 p. m. Clayton Hill. Pulaski, No. 4, walks one-fourth mile to bos. B. S. Cook, Bergen, No. 3, walks one-half mile to box. June 26, 1919. Received to-day 39 questionnaires, 30 dissatisfied, 9 satisfied. Universal demand for the old routes and service. James B. Rogers, Fulton, No. 9, walks one-half mile to bos. A. B. Loomis, Pulaski, No. 1, walks one-half mile to bos. airs. Effle V. Blazey, A'ictor, «-alks one-fourth mile to bos. Roy Drafer, Hammond, walks 3 miles to bos. Ralph S. Spoonburg, Fulton, No. 5, walks three-fourths mile to bos. E. R. Atwood, Brier Hill, walks one-half mile to bos. Abram Deneef, Williamson, walks one-half mile to bos. Arthur Wetherell, Arcade, No. 3, walks one-half mile to box. Lewis Josh, Barnard, No. 1, walks one-fourth mile to box. G. T. Rockwell, Munnsville, walks one-fourth mile to bos. John F. O'Oonnell, Moravia, No. 4, receives mail 5 to 6 p. m. G. P. Van Valkenburg. Bast Bloomfield, receives mail 3 to 4 p. m. S. P. Crocker, Bast Bloomfield, receives mail 5 p. m. (poor service). Fred S. Day, Port Byron, and Charles Climet, Richland, receive mail 3 to 5 p. m. (too late to enable them to attend their business affairs). E. M. Davis, Groton. N. Y. Has regular service now, but infrequent in winter. Lewis Josh, Barnard, N. Y., No. 1, 12 homes not served on Ridge State Road. Have taken the matter up with the Post Oflice Department, but have received no satisfaction. W J Eagan, Lebanon, No. 1, good mail service until April 1, but now receives mail about three times a week. " We are set back to 1871." Walks 2 miles ^o bos. , ^. ^ ^ .i -1, Consensus of opinion that though present service may be satisfactory, it will be irregular and uncertain in winter conditions. June 27, 1919. Received 31 questionnaries, 26 dissatisfied, 5 satisfied. . Willis F. Young, Moravia, walks one-fourth mile to box. 20 EUKAL FEEE DELIVEEY SERVICE. John Bennlng, Clyde, walks three-fourths mile to box. Eugene Fleming, Charlotte, walks one-half mile tn box. .John H. Lane, Spencerport, walks one-fourth mile to Imx. R. A. Sullivan. Arcade, No. 2, Avalks one-fourth mile to Imx. W. S. liany. Sherman, walks three-fourtlis mile to box. Chester Sartwell, Mexico, Xn. 4, walks 11 miles to box. Jlrs. .Tulla Walters, Syracuse, receives mail 2 to -j p. m. Bert Pease, Locke, No. 20, receives mail .'! p. ni. John (.'uliss. Red Creek, receives mail 4 p. m. James A. Sheldon, Oswego, No. 4. receives mail 3 p. m. A. C. Marsh, North (Nillins. He and seven others cut off entirely and service given to Indians. Guj' D. Prentiss, Prattsbtirg, mail one day late. June 2.S, 1919. Received 23 questionnaires, 22 dissatishcd, 1 satisfied. Glenn Eccles, Kennedy, N. Y., travels 1 mile to box. (Six others in same position.) Peter P.ecker, Johnsonhurg, travels one-half mile to box. Jli-s. (J. T. Young, Mexico, 10 miles from the beginning of route, expects to be without mail for a week at a time in winter. Has large mail-ordei- business. William Winter, North Collins, no It. F. P. service since November 16, 1917. (Seven farmers are three-fourths mile from box.) Warren H. Bridges, Fairport, tells of six families who have to go from one- fourth to three-fourths mile for their mail. A. P. Griebim, Baldwiiisville, received letter mailed in Syracuse Jlny 12 on May 20. Is on Lysander star rente. His mail is often a day or two late. JrxE 2S, 1919. Edward Schwab, .Tohnsonbnrg, travels one-fourth mile tfi box. Leslie Lester, Medina, travels one-half mile to box. William Winter, North Collins, travels one-half mile to box. William Towne, East ISloomfleld, travels one-fourth mile to box. 1!. A. Wallace, Cattaraugus, travels one-half mile to box. Lewis Caton, Leicester, travels one-fourth mile to box. C. Jl. Sheldon, Ira, travels one-fourth mile to hox. Charles Wells, Chittenaiigo, travels three-fourths mile to box. Charles Terpennlng, Hannibal, travels eiie-half mile to box. H. F. Covert, Ovid, travels one-half mile to box. S. J. Banta, Conewango \'al]ey, mail is day late, as carrier leaves office before morning mail is in. Frank S. Solmes, Batavia, on route 34, 27 miles long, formerly 22 miles. R. A. Wallace, Cattaraugus, receives mall 2 to 6 p. m. John A. Hart, Owasco, receives mail 5 to 7 p. m. Norman Guenther, Holland, receives mail 12 to 4 p. m. (Not regttlar. ) Parker Van L)eusoii, Port P.yrou, receives mail 3 to 4 p. m. James McCUelan, (leiieva, recel^■es mail o p. m. (During had season.) Jolm Arliss, Red Creek, receives mail 4 p. m. Ju.MK 30, ini!). Received 43 questionnaires, 41 diss.-iiisiied, 2 satisfied. George Springstuble, .Manlius, traxcls one-half nnle to box. •John PI. Lane, Spencerport, travels one-half mile to box, T>. A. ^\'right, Brookpoi-f, travels oiie-lialf mile to hox. Sliles Lounsliury, Ellieottville, travels 1 mile to box (mail day late carrier leaves odiee before incoming mail is received). " ' William Case, :\[arcellus, travels raie-fourth mile to box Charles P.yer, Fort Plain, travels one-Iialf mile to box. Alvaro Bauni, Central Square, travels one-fourth mile to box A. D. Taylor. Eaton, ti-avels one-fourth mile to box. W. G. Plotchines, Kirkville, travels one-half mile to box. C. A. Raskins, Kirkville, travels one-half mile to box. Thomas ( !ampbell, Kirkville, travels 1 mile to box. Thomas Huntley, Kirkville, travels one-half mile to box. EUKAL FREE DELIVEK^ SERVICE. 21 I. F. FiiUerton, Baldw-insville, trayels three-fourths mile to box. Howard H. Erb, Moravia, receives mail 6 to 7 p. m. A. D. Taytou, Eaton, receives mail 3 p. m. Julia Hugltt, Moravia, receives mail 6 p. m. George P. Ransom, .lamesville, receives mail 3 to 4 p. m. Charles B. Lane Cannjoharie, travels one-fourth mile to box. Elmer Ogden, East Bloomtteld, travels one-tourth mile to box. Orson M. Case, Marcellus, travels 1 mile to box. Albert Schmit, North Collins (service irregular, receives mail once or twice a week ) . July 1, 1919. Received 11 questionnaires, 8 dissatisfied, 3 satisfied. Dewitt C. Jordon, Cra.vville, travels one-fourth mile to box. James Fitzgerald, Marcellus, traxels one-fourth mile to box. Charles R. Fuller, Central Sipiare. travels one-fourth mile to box. Thomas McCubbin, Holland, travels one-fourth mile to box. .David E. Berry, Marcellus, travels one-half mile to box. OrviUe Gordon, Canajoharie, travels one-fourth mile to box. Thomas McCubbin, Holland, receives mail 2 to 5 p. m. and only every other day. July 2, 1919. Received 26 questionnaires, 23 dissatisfied, 3 satisfied. W. C. Bigelow, Wolcott, travels one-fourth mile to box. Hallock Bros., Holcomb, Xo. 2, travels one-half mile to box. W. H. Sands, Hilton, travels 2i miles to Ikjx. N. H. Rogers, Canandaigua, travels (jne-half mile to box. Edwin T. Hares, Marcellus, travels three-fourths mile to box. (Four houses are cut off altogether.) Grant C. Moore, Wyoming, travels three-fourths mile to box. H. A. Saunders, Ashwood, travels one-half mile to box. Joseph Herse, Walkeus, travels one-half mile to box. Clark Dorn, Palmyra, travels one-half mile to box. Sara A. Little, of Waterloo, Xo. 4, states in letter that mail has been received, ever since R. F. D. was established through Clyde,, uov,- is changed to Waterloo. Oscar Gustavson. .Jamestown. No. 78, receives mail at 4 p. m. Herbert Parks, V. E. Steele, and William R. Grimm, Collins, state patrons of their route have had only triweekly service since November 1, 1918. Twenty-five or thirty farmers northeast of William Grimm do not get mail delivery at all. July 3, 1919. deceived 21 questionnaires, 18 dissatisfied, 3 satisfied. W. W. Hathway, Moravi.-i. receives mail at .3 p. in. (Door delivery for 12 years, now walks to corner.) Albert Eckman, Jamestown, doesn't get mail dally. Dana H. Beam, Groveland Station, has no service. E. H. Bargran, Angola, receives mail 2.30 to 7 p. ni. Mrs. Edith Blomquist. Falconer, receives mail 4 p. m. Fred H. Dubois, Jamestown, receives mall 2 to 5 p. m. J. R. Hallock, East Bloomfield, receives mail 4 p. m. J. W. Beardsley, Falconer, receives mail 4 p. m. Mrs. S, B. James, Mayville, walks one-fourth mile to box. Gustaff Small, Barnard, walks one-fourth mile to box. A. A. Straight, Cassadaga, wallcs one-half mile to box. M. O. Steadman, Gibboa, walks one-half mile to box. (He states the fact that 12 families must go from one-half to li miles for their mail. ) D. M. Leonard, Gilboa, walks one-half mile to box. Charles Parkman, Gilboa, walks one-half mile to box. July 5, 1919. Received 64 questionnaires, 27 satisfied, 37 dissatisfied. Victor Long, Frewsburg, travels li miles to box. Herbert Bucher, Hilton, travels one-fourth mile to box. 22 KUEAL FEEE DELIVERY SEEVICE. Alfred Ogren, Jamestown, travels 1 mile to box. Axel Pearson, Jamestown, travels one-half mile to box. G. Bastan, Jamestown, travels one-fourth mile to box. J. B. Winter, North < 'ollins, travels one-fourth mile to box. G. G. Brunham, Falconer, travels 1 mile to box. Jlilo Waraple, Jamestown, travels one-fourth mile to box. Eli Sawson, Hayville, travels one-half mile to box. ilrs. Nettie Dixon states that there are three and four days in winter when she gets no mail at all. Susw^ts that each rural resident " with horses " keep an open road forward to the next rural resident. A. B. Sheldon, Sherman, state.s that mail was 22 hours late on July 3, 1919, and is usually late. .John I\:enne(ly, Sprakers, gets no service at all. ililo Wample, Jamest(j«i], gets mall two or three times a week. G. 0. Benjamon, Clyde, receives mail 11.30 to 1 p. m. Earl D. Wright, Webster, receives mail 12 to 1 p. m. Mrs. Lottie Peck, Ashville, receives mail 3 to 4.30 (horse), 12 to 2 (auto). ililo Wample, Jamestown, receives mail 11 to p. m. Raymond Goff, Rusli, receives mail 2.4.5 p. m. Henry Lilley receives mail 3.30 to 4 p. m. Alfred Ogren rrceix'es mail anywhere 7 a. m. to 9 p. m. John Courbat, receives mail any\vhere after 2 |i. m. C. L. Gorman receives mail anywhere after 4.30 p. m. Eobt. Ingers(jll receives mail anywhere after 3.30 p. m. Abram Martin recei\es mail anywhere after 5 p. m. .July 7, 1919. Received 44 questionnaires, 22 satisfied, 20 dissatisfied. G. il. Becker, Sinclairville, No. 41, travels inic-fourth mile to box (some of his neighbors foi' him). .Tackson Westfall, Jloraviu, No. 1, walks a distance to box. (.1. E. Ames, . a little over the maximum, and now has 31. The mail- man could get back in the summer as early as 11 o'clock, but they added to the service, so that he has 31 miles now, and in tlie summer time he gels down within half an hour of the time; but in the winter- time we ha-se a fairly level road: he gets along anywhere from 1 to 6 o'clock, and last winter was an ideal winter. Mr. Blakslee. You said something further about the carrier? Ml-. Lowell. Yes, sir. Mr. Blakslee. That he was not efficient? Mr. Lowell. I did not say he was not efficient, but I said that it V. ;,s the only business he could do, because he was a consumptive. ^fr. Bl.Mvslee. Defective physic.dly? Mr. LoA\'KLL. He runs an automobile, and in the summer he goes out in the morning and goes out in the afternoon on another route. Mr. Saxders. Do you know anything about the method pursued by the inspector or whoever ordered the change? INIr. Lowell. I do not know. They took 16 mutes out of that county. Mr. Saxders. You have no information personally as to the method pursued ? Mr. Lowell. I have no wav of getting it. EUKAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 25 Mr. Eamseyer. In regard to this county, you say that 16 routes liave been eliminated or canceled? Mr. Lowell. Yes, sir. Mr. Eamsetei). Do you know whether inspectors were sent out ■over the county before the order canceling those 16 routes was made? Mr. Lowell. I am not positive, but I think they A\'ere. Mr. Eamseyer. They went all over the county? Mr. Lowell. I do not think so; but they were there and looked it over. Mr. Bajiseyer. Do you know how many routes there were in the county? ^ ■ Mr. Lowell. Eighty-seven. Mr. Eamseyer. And 16 were eliminated ? jNIr. Lowell. There are 70 or 71 routes. Mr. Eajiseyer. Ha\e any been re-tored? Mr. Lowell. No. sir. Mr. Blakslee. Have they not readjusted it? Mr. LoAVELL. That is an absolute concession that this matter was injurious, or tliey would not come in and readjust it. jMr. Black. I will ask you if you do not realize that in the forma- tion of these rural routes that a great deal of retracing and duplica- tion of service exists, and also if you do not know that in a number of instances patrons that are not now served can be served by adding them to rural routes where it would be impracticable to install a new one, and then, in making those changes, do you expect the Post Office Department to be able to make them without making some mistakes and encountering some discontent, and they will necessarily have to go back and readjust the routes in order to obviate and cure any mistakes which have been made? Mr. Lowell. Would you think that coming in and making such sweeping changes and creating such dissatisfaction would indicate improvement? Mr. Black. I know from my own district that changes of that kind were made, and practically the same discontent was voiced, but in each and every instance apparently, where a mistake was made, I have been able to get it cured, and now I have not the record of a complaint, not at least in several months. Mr. Lowell. We would be glad to have that done by the Post Office Department. Mr. Black. I am sure they will do it. Mr. Gould. Would you advise an investigation of such changes as might be proposed being made before the changes are put into effect ? Mr. Lowell. And improving on the old ? Islr. Gould. Yes. sir; in case that improvement could be made. That is, going into the county and over the routes with a view to seeing whether or not by investigation and talking with the patrons of the routes changes could be made so as to help the people out. Mr. Lowell. Most certainly. Mr. Sanders. Your idea is that before radical changes are made on the routes there should be a hearing ? Mr. Lowell. I think so. 26 EUEAL FKEE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. Sanders. At which the patrons should be given an opportu- nity to voice tlaeir views as to the practicability and desirability ot the changes? Mr. Lowell. Yes, sir; after full and careful consideration, it seems to me when the cities have such good service — and we are glad they have it ; we are not trying to interfere with them — that the f ariii- ers'should be given some consideration. Now, the farmers do not dare to go down to the boxes until night, because they do not know when the man is coming. Thev should know what the stock quotations and prices are, and thev do not get the orders for farm products until night, when they should get them earlier in order to fill their orders. Now, thev do not dare to come down. Mr. Sanders. You said that the farm population is decreasing? JNIr. Lowell. Yes, sir. ^Nlr. Sanders. In other words, while all the instrumentalities and propaganda are advocating a return to the land you think that you really meet them coming into the cities? Mr. Lowell. Yes, sir; and they take them back with them. There has been a wonderful decrease in the last 10 years, and I understand that that is the situation east of the Mississippi River. 'Sir. Blakeslee. The farmer knows where he can make the best living ? jMr. Lowell. Where he can get good service. Mr. Blakeslee. Apparently, the farmer goes to the city because he can make a better living? Mr. Lowell. Yes, sir ; and get better facilities. Mr. Blakeslee. That is it exactly. Mr. Lowell. And you are helping him along ? Mr. Blakeslee. I ithink so ; we are helping him to go back to the farm to live. Mr. Lowell,. No, sir. Mr. Gould. Do you know of many instances where the changes were made and the readjustment has not yet been accomplished that many patrons of routes have been without any service for several weeks ? ]Mr. LoAVELL. Yes, sir ; this very route that I speak of from Onon- daga ; and the mail carrier said to one man, " If you will put a box on my route, I will take care of it." ^Ir. Blakslee. That furnished service to how many that had not been served before? ]\Ir. Lowell. Not on that route. Mr. Blakslee. Or on any route? Mr. Lowell. No, sir. I think that was practically completed be- fore, and it never could have been. Mr. Blakslee. Do you know anything about Rensselaer County? Mr. Lowell. Yes, sir. Mr. Blakslee. In the southeast section of Rensselaer County do you know of any routes which were never located there before? Mr. Lowell. That is no reason why you should take them off of us. Can not you give tliem one without eliminating our routes? Mr. Holland. How many routes are there in the county? Mr. Lowell. I do not know. Mr. Holland. How manv routes arc affected h\ this chaniiv? RURAL, FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 27 Mr. Lowell. In every community where there ha^ been a general change it has formed a large percentage. Mr. Holland. In how many counties ? Mr. Lowell. In perhaps half. Mr. Blakslee. This revision includes 11 counties. Mr. Holland. The last one ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. There were 551 routes on which there were 55,100 patrons; 400 were revised and changed, and we have added 1,457 families who received no adequate mail facilities before this change. They are the men who should be heard also. Mr. Black. Do you know about what the average mileage of the routes was before the change? Mr. Lowell. We had the shortest one, I think, a little over 19 miles, but they gave credit for 21 miles. That was an old route, one established long before the general survey. Mr. Black. You think the average would be more than 20 miles? Mr. Lowell. I should say it would run from 20 up to 24 miles; yes, sir. Mr. Black. In mailing out these questionnaires, what method did you pursue? Mr. Lowell. We mailed them to the granges and to the farm- bureau organizations. If we had had enough, we could have gotten fifty times as many. Mr. Black. How many did you mail? Mr. Lowell. I put 3 in each letter to the granges — 925. Mr. Black. About 2,700? Mr. Lowell. They are coming in just as fast now and will continue to come in for a month or two. Mr. Black. In regard to this resolution that you spoke of in your original statement as having been sent to the headquarters of the different granges, do you know whether or not the different local granges were asked by some central body to introduce a resolution of this kind ? Mr. Lowell. There was no stock resolution sent out. This reso- lution was what started up the work. Mr. Black. There was no certain form of resolution ? Mr. Lowell. Not sent out by the State granges. I sent it out in a general way after it was approved. Mr. Blakslee. Did anybody send out a request? Mr. Lowell. I sent them out to the people, not to the granges, asking those that were seriously inconvenienced by the thing to write us. Mr. Black. I see. Mr. Blakslee. You said there were public meetings held. To what extent, do you know, were they held ? Mr. Lowell. They were not public hearings in any sense of the word. I think we have a gentleman here who will make that clear. Mr. Holland. You stated a few minutes ago that possibly this service had been affected by a change in the train schedule. To what extent are these complaints that you have received due to that? Mr. Lowell. We have not tabulated them. There are many com- plaints. I understand that there was a large amount of mail taken off the trains. I get my mail at Fredonia. Fredonia is 7 miles away, 28 RUEAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. tmd it has taken three days for me to get a letter from Fredonia, a distance of a few miles, that I could walk in two hours. Mr. Holland. How many changes have been due to that? Mr. Lowell. We did not tabulate them. Mr. Holland. Most of them clue to that fact ? Mr. Lowell. No; hardly any of those complaints. There are complaints because of the inadequate delivery of the mail; that is, the mail getting into town after the rural man comes in and it lays over until the next day. Mr. Holland. In how many cases have you submitted to the de- partment a petition signed by the i:>atrons of any route asking for a change ? Mr. Lowell. I never submitted any. There came in with the petitions and asked for a change as representing the whole people. Mr. Holland. Have you ever submitted to the department a signed petition aslcing for a change of a single route signed by a majority of the patrons of that particular route ? Mr. Lowell. AVe ha\e a man here who will give you that informa- tion ; he will give that to you very fully. jNIr. Kendall. Is it possible that your poor service is due to a lessen- ing of the ability of the carriers, the carriers being careless, and they arrive there anywhere from 1 to 5 o'clock ? Mr. Lowell.' No ; I can not say that. I can not say that humanity has absolutely gone clown. Some of these men have been on for years and years. Mr. Kendall. You think that they render the same service ? Mr. Lowell. I would not make any complaint against a rural car- rier. It is not in his province to delay getting around, because the quick?r he can get around the quicker the job is done, and he receives the same compensation. ^fr. Rajiseyer. The policy of the State granges is to get the mail delivered to every farmer everv dav the same as thev have in the city? Mr. Lowell. Yes, sir; on a fair schedule, so that we can reasonably know if we want to send out a money order we will not have to stay in tlie house and v ait for the carrier from one to three hours. Mr. Eajiseyer. You said something about destroying the small towns as communitv centers. Is it the idea of _your organization, so far as possible, to have the farmers get their mail out of the town where they do their business or where they go to church, etc. ? Mr. Lowell. That is tlie intent. We want to maintain the com- nuuiity centers. Mr. Eajiseyek. Has much of that been disturbed? Mr. Lowell. A little later a gentleman will show you where the routes were all taken away in some towns. Mr. RA:NrsEYEK. You say before the changes were begun in 1917 there was quite general satisfaction among tlie farmers in New York? Mr. Lowell. A great deal more satisfaction than at any other time; very much more. Mr. Holland. What suggestion have you to make that will bring about better service? Mr. Lowell. The mail routes should not be so long. Mr. Holland. How long? RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 29 Mr. Lowell. Twenty to 30 miles ; not over 25 miles in the State of New York, where some of the roads are very hilly and wliere we have a good deal of rainfall and snow, dependent upon the condition of the State roads and the availability of getting to the people. Some men can make 25 to 28 miles on one route while another could not make more than 20 on another route. Mr. Holland. And would you pay the carrier the same amount, notwithstanding the difference in the routes? Mr. Lowell. I would if he has a hard route, a route such as they have to go over every day, the same as a man who has a little longer route but has a better route, would you not think so? Mr. Holland. I am asking you. ^Ir. Lowell. That is my opinion. Mr. Holland. What other suggestion have you to make ; one is to shorten the route? Mr. Lowell. I think that ought to eliminate a lot of trouble. I think the department ought to work out a schedule for the service just as the Government has worked out a schedule for the train service. Mr. Holland. Would that be practicable? Mr. Lowell. I think it would, sir. Mr. Holland. To make the schedule dependent on the condition of the road and the condition of the weather and the condition of the conveyance in having the mail carried? Mr. LoAVELL. We ought to have a reasonable schedule under rea- sonable conditions. Mr. Sanders. Thank you very much. Mr. GoTJLD. Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask you to hear Mr. H. E. Babcock, of the Farm Bureau Associations of New York State. STATEMENT OF MR. H, E. BABCOCK, SECRETARY OF THE NEW YORK STATE FEDERATION OF COUNTY FARM BUREAU ASSOCIA- TIONS, ITHACA, N. Y. Mr. Sanders. Mr. Babcock, what is your occupation? Mr. Babcock. I am secretary of tlie New York State Federation of County Farm Bureau Associations. There have been several points raised before the committee which I think I can clear up, particularly in regard to the questionnaires and how they were handled. Simply to avoid being influenced by the discussion which might come up I have written out a very brief statement which I prepared before I left the headquarters. If you want an idea of how carefully we canvassed the situation, you per- haps can get it from this statement. The county farm bureau associations of New York State are mem- bership organizations of farmers formed for the specific and definite purpose of cooperating with the extension service of the State Col- lege of Agriculture in developing the agricultui'e of the State. An association is organized in each of the 55 agricultural counties of the State. The average farmer memberships in these associations is some- thing over a thousand each, or about 33 per cent of the active farmers in each county. The affairs of each association are managed by an electee! executive committee, which is represented by picked commit- 30 EUEAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. teemen in each community in the county. The farm bureau associa- tion, together with the extension service of the State College of Agri- culture, maintains a so-called county farm bureau, which is in charge of a paid agent called a county agricultural agent. In addition to supporting' the county farm bureaus with their educational work the county farm bureau associations of the State have banded together under the name of " New York State Federa- tion of County Farm Bureau Associations," for the purpose of study- ing and acting collectively on problems which affect the agricultural work of the State. One of these problems has been very much to the fore during the last few months, and, as a result, I am here as a representative of the 66,000 active farm members of the federation to call to vour attention the Eural Free Delivery situation in New York State. In carrying out the various projects which the farm bureaus of the State have under way in the development of its agriculture, if has become more and more necessary to keep the county ofEcei'S in the closest possible contact with the man on the farms. This contact can be maintained partially through the committeemen mentioned and through the telephone, but the main reliance has always been placed and always will have to be placed upon the Rural Free Deliv- ery Mail Service. During the past two years frequent complaints of inefficient mail service have been made to the directors of the federation. These came particularly from western New York. Because it was a time of war, with all facilities for communication overloaded, the com- l^laints were passed over without comment until this spring, when the attention of President Strivings, of the federation, was brought to the fact that the Post Office Department had, without warning, ordered and made effective a revision of the Rural Free Delivery routes in central New York. This action on the part of the Post Office authorities was so drastic that it aroused a storm of protest. This will answer your question in regard to the stock resolution. As a result the federation sent out to the committeemen of the county farm bureau associations a questionnaire designed to ascer- tain the condition of rural mail service in the communities in which the committeemen live. We have 25 rural communities in the State. We sent out one questionnaire to each of the 25 communities. We received in return about 1,500. Several communities in northern New York and in the southern tier did not send the questionnaires out, so we ran about 75 or 80 per cent returns. That is chiefly be- cause these community committeemen are talking more and more that they should have their mail. The results from this questionnaire were totally unexpected. Com- ing in from every section of the State they showed a considerable dissatisfaction with the way rural mail delivery was handled, and those from the western part of the State particularly were definite and specific in their complaints of poor service. This led to further inquiry which brought out the fact that in these sections the Post Office Department had been reorganizing the rural free delivery routes prior to the wholesale reorganization in central New York which started the investigation. As the responsible officers of a State-wide organization, formed for the specific purpose of rural development, the directors of the KUEAL TREE DELIVEEY SEEVICE. 81 federation had no choice but to immediately take steps to insure bet- ter mail service for the farmers of the State. Personally, my own voice was overruled. I hated to get into the thing. I delayed it until I did not dare to delay it any longer. Ac- cordingly, along with delegates from other New York State organi- zations, I came to Washington and had conferences with Postmaster General Burleson and Fourth Assistant Postmaster General Blakslee. At these conferences both gentlemen told us that it was reaspnable to expect a rural mail service that would fulfill the following specifi- cations : 1. Eeasonably prompt mail delivery even in bad weather. 2. Mail to go out from the post office the day that it is collected on route. 3. A minimum of inconvenience through the post office changing their established addresses. 4. That the post office cooperate in the maintenance of the life and organization of established communities. 5. In the future 100 per cent door delivery of mail. 6. In the cooperation of post-office officials with farmers' organi- zations. Now, gentlemen, this statement of program is entirely satisfactory to our farmers' organizations in New York State. What we are now interested in, and the reason we are here, is to see whether it will be lived up to. Upon receiving this statement of program, I returned to New York State and prepared a second questionnaire, which was sent out in conjunction with the master of the New York State Grange, jNIr. Lowell, whom you have heard. This questionnaire went to grange officers and to farm bureau association committeemen, one to each committeeman. The object of this questionnaire was to give pub- licity — and we published it in the agricultural papers also — to the program of the Post Office Department, so that rural people might become familiar with what they might expect, and to check up on how closely the service given by the Post Office Department coincided with their own statement of what it should be. The instructions for the return of the questionnaire provided that they should be sent either to Mr. Lowell or myself. I will, therefore, give a summary of only those which by July 7 were returned to me. There are some which came in after we started our summary, which are not included. This summary is but a statistical record of the definite answers. The opinions, unfortunately, can not be tabulated. They are, how- ever, valuable and are available in the original forums on the returned questionnaire. Now, gentlement, in considering this , summary it should be borne in mind that these questionnaires filled out by Farm Bureau Association committeement, who are active farmers, who are selected by the farmers of a county or a community to speak for them because of their proven leadership in agricultural matters. I summarized 403 questionnaires. Those were not 403 families. Those were 403 men speaking for 403 rural communities. The total number of persons stating that the service was satisfac- tory to themselves was 178 and to their community 117. We asked a double question there. The total number of persons stating the service was unsatisfactory to themselves was 188 and to their community '2-20. 32 EUKAL FEEB DELIVERY SEKVICE. You see there were a considerable number of people who, ■"'hil® they were getting satisfactory service themselves, reported that the service was not satisfactory to their community. « • i The total number of persons reporting to the post-oftce othcials that service was unsatisfactory was 83. The total number of persons reporting that these complaints were heeded was 25. The total number of persons reporting that their complaints were siven no attention was 41. Sixty-eight persons reported that their mail was not received every dav. ■ 1 J. One hundred and six persons reported that mail was received too late in the day for business purposes. Forty-one persons reported that the mail was not sent out from the post oifice on the day it was collected. Fifty persons reported that their house delivery was lost. Seventy-two persons reported that because of the changes m the mail route they were obliged to travel from one-quarter to 2| miles farther to get their mail following changes in routes. Thirty-five persons reported that as a residt of the changes m the rural delivery routes community life was affected detrimentally. You SCO these are ?>:> communities, and there may occasionally be two men reporting from the same community, but that can be checked, of course. One hundred and twenty persons reported that in general the changes caused irregular delivery. In all reasonableness we would assume that new routes would be irregular at first. One hundred and sixty-nine persons reported that the routes would be more satisfactory if returnecl to their former status. The activity of the federation to date has been principally to study the situation, and these are our conclusions : First. That the expressed program of the Post Office Department is n< t being carried out. Second. That the service is being administered with little appre- ciation of the rural life and organization of the State. I think, if I were to be so presumptuous as to criticize the Post Office Department, that is where they have fallen down badly. They have failed to take into consideration our rural organizations and the peculiar makeup of communities. I was interested in what Senator Moses brought out along that line. This has caused a lot of unneces- sary hard feeling. Third. That while the claim of the Post Office Department that more families are receiving the service than ever did before may be true, that such increase in service has caused less efficient service to others, and that what our people want is not decreased service to any, hut rather an increasingly efficient service to all. Farmers do not regard the mail service as a business proposition, but rather as a public service that is indispensable to the maximum rural development of the countiT. Xow, following this hearing — regardless of what happens at this hearing or what action the Post Office Department takes — we are going back to our State with the object of calling a meeting in each EUEAL FEEE DELIVERY SERVICE. 33 of the :2,500 comnumities. We will not get over all of those until next spring. ^h: Eamsetek. Eight there, what do yon mean by a community? ^Ir. Babcock. We mean by a community the territory adjacent to a commmiity center at which farmers come in to go to church, to do their trading, and to transact their business, etc. Mr. IvAirsEYEE. You have the State organized on that plan? ^Ir. Babcock. Yes, sir; we ha'\'e them all mapped out. There are some 2,47:3 communities, or something like that, which are around community centers. ^Ir. EAjrsEYEE. You pay no attention to township lines? ]Mr. Babcock. Township lines have no significance in our State jjlan whatsoever. Within each one of these communities there are from one to three community committeemen. These men quite often coincide with Mr. Lowell's masters of the granges. In that way we can reach every community through picked men. Mr. Eajiseyer. Who lays out the communities? Mr. Babcock. The farmers themselves, in conference with the county agricultural agents. We would call together the executive committees of the farm-bureau organizations and they would sit down around the table with the county agricultural agent, who J^new the county pretty well, and they would take a map and designate their community centers and roughly outline the communities which contribute to those centers. Mr. Eajxseyee. And every farmer is in a community? ]Mr. Babcock. Yes; every farmer is in a community, and we have his address by that community, so if wo want to hold a meeting in a community center we know what men to notify about the meet- ing, although we have to go sometimes through half a dozen post offices. As to this community development in our State, I think the men who are here from the agricultural society and the grange and other organizations will agree with me, the stimulus that has been given to community life in our State in the last two or three years has been a great thing for the State, but, as I say, you can not call a. community meeting in the State of New York without going through six or seven post offices. ]Mr. Eamsey-ee. That is very interesting to me. jNIr. Babcock. I can give you definite instances. We talked about Phelps, Mr. Blakeley, when I was down her-, and the community of Elba, but I had better not get into specif! ;• cases, because I have not my facts with me; but these reroutings every little while take a few farmers' mail away from their community center, and they resent that. I think it is' a bad thing for the State, and I think it is a bad policv for the countr\- at large. Xow, as I say, we are going back, regardless of what happens here to-day, and we*^are going to have 2,.50Q community meetings between now and spring, and at every one of those meetmgs this matter of mail service is going to be taken up. In a good many ca,ses we are going to be able to have it studied prior to the meeting and have the local committeeman report on it. Our procedure following that will be to notify th^ Congressman of that district of the condition of that mail service and file a complaint with the Post Office Department, if we ha-:o uny complaint to make. Xow, it is quite conceivable, and I 128079—19 3 34 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. am very hopeful, there will not be a whole lot of complaints, because it will be six months before those meetings are all finished, ;ind you can get a good deal of action in bix months in straightening these matters out. JMr. Eamseyer. Just one other question, and excuse me, Mr. Chair- man, for interrupting, but I am interested in this community organi- zation. I presume it also happens that a certain community is often in two different counties. j\lr. I>ABCoc'K. Yes; it does. JNIr. Ramseyeu. How long have you had the State thus organized into these 2,.j(H) community centers? JNIr. Babcock. AYe have' had some of the counties organized for about three years and a half. We have had the entire State organ- ized for approximately one year. Mr. Eajisetee. Is that the work of the grange or of your organi- zation ? Mr. Babcock. It is the work of the two organizations. Air. Eamseyer. Combined'^ Mr. Babcock. Yes, sir. I am not im expert on grange matters, but I believe the grange is dependent for its very existence upon com- munity life, and it is essentially a local organization, and the grange had some 900 local granges; is not that right, jMr. Lowell? Mr. Lowj'LL. Nine hundred and twenty-five. Mr. Babco('k. Every one of those granges had in itself built up a conmumity: that is, it was located in a center, so you might say we had the two organizations work it out togethher, because those 92;") cojiununities were already laid out. jNIr. Eajiskyer. But your organization takes in all the farmers whether they belong to the grange or to anything else. You include them all. JNIr. Babcock. Yes, sir. Ml'. Ea3iseyer. They do not have to apply to get into a certain comnmnity when you have laid out the State in this way. Air. Babcock. That is true. The State is laid out in this way prinuirily for the purpose of giving service in agricultural develop- ment. We have taken two censuses. We took a census during 1918 wliicli I had charge of myself, and we got the name and address and something about the business of every farmer in the State, and then grouped the farmers by communities, but we pretty nearly lost out, Mr. Blakslee, in running those communities, liecause the original addresses we got in that census have all been shot to pieces by the action of your department. Mr. Blakslke. That is what frequently happens with a great many of these idealistic programs. Air. Babcock. AMiat we are after is an idealistic mail service and not an idealistic program. Mr. Holland. You say you have 2,."')00 communities? Air. Babcock. Yes, sir. Air. Holland. And you have heard from about 1,500 of them? Air. Babcock. Yes, sir. Air. Holland. From how many have you received complaints? Mr. Babcock. We have received complaints of nonsatisfactory service from practically all we heard from. In sending out the second questionnaire in which we defined the program of the depart- ETJRAL TREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 35 ment and sending it out to only about two-thirds of the territory, which would bring it down to maybe 1,600 communities, we had heard, at the time I left Ithaca, from 25 per cent of those. Mr. Holland. That is, from 403. Mr. Babcock. Yes, sir. Mr. Holland. Out of the 2,500? Mr. Babcock. Out of the 1,600. "We only covered 1,600 with our last questionnaire. Sir. Holland. And about 117 of those answered that the service Avas satisfactory? INIr. Babcock. Yes ; I guess that is it, 117 ; and 220 tliat it was not. Mr, Holland. So, out of 2,500 communities you have heard com- plaints from only 220? Mr. Babcock. Xo; out of 1,600. Mr, Holland. There are 2,600 altogether in your State. Mr. Babcock. Yes, sir. Mr. Holland, And you have taken the matter up with all of them, but from some of them you have not heard. ]\lr. Babcock. No ; we took it up with all of them in the first ques- tionnaire and heard from 1,500. j\Ir. PIoLLAND. And out of the 1,600 you only heard from 220 com- munities that advised you the service was unsatisfactory. Mr. Babcock. Yes; we will leave it that way. Mr. Holland. Then the complaint is not State-wide, but purely local, so far as you can now say. INlr. Babcock. It is local, certainly. That is what we are inter- ested in, Mr, Sanders. I suppose those complaints were from all over the State? Mr. Babcock, Yes, certainly. Mr. Holland. From how many counties dicl you hear? Mr, Babcock, I did not count them up last night, but I judge we tabulated the returns from about 30 counties last night, i Mr, Holland, And how many have you in the State? Mr, Babcock, There are 55 agricultural counties in the State. Mr, Paige, I do not suppose you could tell whether those com- munities favbr a repeal of war-time prohibition. Mr, Babcock, I could express an opinion on it, but it would not be pertinent, Mr, Blakslee, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one question: If you are f'amiliar with the situation at Holcomb, East Bloom- field, and West Bloomfield, what is the status of the community center in that particular territory? JNlr. Babcock. That is a very thriving agricultural section. Mr. Blakslee. It is, Mr, Babcock, And as expressed by the attendants that come to our farmers' meetings, those are alive, virile, rural communities, Mr, Blakslee. Yes. The reason I asked the question is this: He will have in his organization of community-center development the same problems to meet that we have. Holcomb and East Bloomfield are offices located three-quarters of a mile from each other, and there is intense rivalry between the two communities as to the identity, importance, and influence of the communities. Consequently, if they select Holcomb or East Bloomfield as the chief locality or the center 36 KURAI. FEEE DELIVERY SERVICE. of community life they will have the same problem to meet that we have. 3Ir. Rabcock. We have met that problem. We take in both. Mr. Blakslee. I am glad to hear that. We are going to do the same thing. Mr. Black. There is one point I want to ask about. I understood from your testimony that you had received 403 answers to the last questionnaire. Mr. Babcock. Yes. ^Ir. Black. And that 169 of them reported that the rearranged routes did not give as good service as the former routes. "Sir. Babcock. Yes. ^Ir. Black. Xow, I was wondering if the other 234 routes — if they represented specific routes — were not more satisfactory than the former routes. Mr. Babcock. I think it would be the courteous thing to assume that they might be. Mr. Black. And if so, the department has accomplished what both of us have in mind as to those routes, and the service is better. ]Mr. Babcock. Yes. Mr. Black. And then it seems to me the only problem is to deal with the other 169 in the way of a readjustment. Of course, we are all in accord on the question that we ought to give the best possible service, but we ought not to go back to the old condition and restore 234 routes where the service is now better than before. Mr. Babcock. Now, here is just the trouble. You do give some moi'e service oftentimes on these reroutings, but always it is at the expense of certain families. Now, it is the ideal of our people to-day and they are going after it in an organized manner and thej' are going to stay with it, that no families shall lose what they have. Give the rest of them all j'ou can and we are right with you on the proposition, but we do not want to give one bunch better service and take away service from another group. Now, that is what is making the trouble. Mr. Black. Of course, we all agree that that should be done just as little as possible. Mr. Babcock. AVell, I think that has been done too much. Sir. Holland. But you really think we ought to accommodate the greatest number of people possible. ]Mr. Babcock. We want all the rural people accommodated. Mr. Wood. Mr. Chairman, I am Mr. Wood, the chief of the Di- vision of Rural Mails, and T would like to ask a question. ]Mr. Sanders. All right, but make it just as brief as you can. Mr. Wood. Tn this number of questionnaires, ^Mr. Babcock. that you sent out, were they so framed as to indicate that the dissatis- faction was vith the rural mail service or the mail service as a V hole ? Mv. Babcock. Xo; the rural mail service. ]Mr. AVooD. Of your knowledge, is it not a fact that the railroads have taken off numerous mail trains in the State of New York and might it not be that a number of those that are dissatisfied are dis- satisfied due to the fact that certain mail trains are not runnino- now ? EXJEAL FREE DELIVEEY SEEVICE. 37 Mr. Babcock. I appreciate that that might be, Mr. Wood, but that is not our problem. Our problem is to get the service, and it is up to you people to woi'k that out. Mr. AVooD. We can not run the trains. Mr. Babcock. If you have those troubles^ you have made a mighty big mistake in the State of New York by not taking the farmers in the localities that are suffering fiom those troubles into your con- confidence. Here is just one letter that I have. I must not take any more of your time: On August 1.5, 1917, changes were made which have been very bad for the sevvioe. We did ndt ccimiilaiii much during the war, but now we «ant service. Twenty-one families were deprived of service. And tlien the names of those families are set out in this letter. Mr. Sanders. May I ask vs'here that is from'^ Mr. Babcock. From Elba, N. Y. Mr. Sanders. Let me inject at this point that Elba was the first rural route established in the United States, and I have received practically the same letter from 19 patrons who received the service all during the establishment of the rural route and liave now been deprived of that service on account of this change. Mr. Blakslee. We admit a mistal^e in Chautauqua County. Mr. Sanders. This is in Genesee County. Mr. Blakslee. We admit a mistake up in that section, but we have not had the time. Mr. Babcock. That is just the point. You better not make those changes until you aie sure they are mistakes, or, if you do make them, it would help the situation a good deal if you would correct them more quickly. Mr. Gould. Mr. Babcock, I would like to ask you a question — that is, if you are acquainted with the manner in which the investigation as to readjustments was handled by the inspectors who were sent out to various community centers, and the nature of the meetings, and how they were conducted; that is, if you know anything about that? Mr. Babcock. I did not attend those meetings. Mr. Holland. Before you answer that, might it not be well to ask him as to how many routes he is familiar with — as to the inspections that were made. Mr. GotTLD. I just wanted to bring out, if I might, sir, the manner in which the meetings were held and the protests, if any, of the patrons of the route, and how those protests were handled. Mr. Holland. Still, his knowledge might not extend to more than one route. Mr. Gould. Then I will ask him to so specify. Mr. Babcock. I will get out of that by saying that I have not any specific knowledge of any routes, because I live in the city. What I bring here is simply the reflection of the members of our organiza- tion. At the time the Post OiEce Department sent inspectors to cen- tral New York to hold hearings on those routes which were changed I sent one of my assistants, Mr. T. E. Milliman, to the hearings. I have his report in writing; and it was to the effect that his impres- sion of the hearing was that the post-office inspectors wanted to 38 KUKAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. avoid iDublic expression at those hearings. He said they wanted to ■work with the individual farmers and tangle them up. Mr. Holland. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that this witness ought to state here simply the facts that he knows 9f his own knowledge. Mr. Saxdees. He is stating facts which he gets from one of his assistants which are in writing. Go ahead and make your state- ment. Mr. Babcock. That is the statement he made. It was a written statement. I did not attend the hearing. Mr. Sanders. Of your knowledge you have no information as to the methods which were pursued at those hearings? Mr. Babcock. Nothing except his report. Mr. Eamseyer. He is a member of your organization and made the investigation under your direction ? JMr. Babcock. Yes, sir. Mr. IvAiisEYER. An' by saying that the inspectors who came there were entirely fair and evidently in- tended to do exactly the right thing and what they were directed to do, so what I shall say is no criticism of them. The matter of public hearings has come up this morning ]Mr. Sanders (interposing). Mr. Giles, they were held with refer- ence to the original changes that Avere made ? Mr. Giles. Yes, sir; after the hearing that was held here. In- spectors were sent out to hold public ]ie;irings in diiferent sections. The first one they held — perhaps not just the first one, but one of the first ones — was in Onondaga County and I was present. Now, as to that hearing the ciuestion is. " What is a public hearing? " The pub- lic hearing which you are giving us tliis morning is one at which every man in the room knows what every other man saAs. and thus we all get a general knowledge of the situation. Now, let me de- scribe briefly, and without any prejudice, tlie meeting at Onondasa County as to Syracuse. We were first addressed by the postmaster of the city of Syracuse. I am not going to comment on all that he said. It would bear pretty careful analysis. We were then addressed by Mr. Brigham. who was EURAL FEEE DELIVEEY SEEVICE. 39 one of the inspectors, and instead of the protests we had filed here and the petitions we had filed, they said if anyone had a complaint that they might volunteer. They did not put us up, as you have here, as a public witness, so every one else could get a full under- standing of the affair or they themselves get a full understanding of the affair, but each individual who had a grievance was taken over to one corner, and another in another corner, and courteously treated, with maps which were more or less authentic, and frightened as the farmer generally is, and as I am now in the joresence of the Wash- ington men. They did not make it very clear and it was not a public meeting. Now, that is our protest about that. I was also present at Cayuga County, and a similar occasion occurred. The inspectors Avho came to Onondaga County, very largely, gave us courteous attention individually. The one specific instance which I laid before them has been since changed and we are glad of that. "We protest the action of the department — and I want to be very thoroughly understood in this — that previous to these changes no public inspection was made over the routes so far as we knew, and a man went to sleep in Schoharie and woke up the next morning in Elba, because of the ruling that came from the department as to changes. Xow, then, I want to speak, if you will allow me, just a minute on another matter, if there is nothing further as to the public hearings. Mr. Sanders. Let me ask you a question right there. This hear- ing was a general hearing as to all the routes in Onondaga? Mr. Giles. It was a general hearing advertised in the papers. Mr. Saxdees. It was not a hearing as to any specific changes ? Mr. Giles. It was advertised in our papers and published as late as Wednesday that on Friday — I tliink I have the clays correct — the hearing would be held, and with our mail delivery somewhat demora- lized, a good many people never heard of it until afterwards. If each witness had stood up before that gathering and stated his par- ticular grievance, it would have been a different thing, but those peoi^le went out of there and did not know of grievances and inter- ruptions in their serA'ice which had occurred in other parts of the county. Mr. Sanders. What I was trying to get at was that this meeting was a general meeting? i\fr. Giles. Yes, sir; general. ]Mr. Sanders. And it was not as to specific changes in any one route ? Mr. Giles. It was advertised as a general hearing, although it was not advertised early enough. ]Mr. Sanders. What I am trying to make plain is this : Do you not think that a hearing should be held with reference to one route or at least not more than two routes affected by a particular change I Mr. Giles. No ; I would not quite agree with you, Mr. Chairman ; but I think every route should have stated their opinion and their knoAvledge so that all the others could have known about it. I think in the abstract we should have taken the individual route, but that individual route should have been taken up in a public hearing. ]Mr. Blakslee. ^Ir. Chairman, I Avould like to ask one question in connection with the public hearing. It was advertised in the Post- Standard, of Syracuse, was it not? 40 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. Giles. Yes, sir. Mr. Blakslee. And the condition of tlie roads — and the weather conditions were terrific at that time, and instead of an anticipated large meeting there was a small meeting, due to the fact that the farmers were unable to get there on account of the road conditions '. Mr. Giles. No, sir ; not quite that, but partially that. Mr. Blakslee. It was so stated in the newspapers. Mr. (th.es. I do not believe all I read in the papers. The fact is this, Air. Blakeslee, that it was a very late and backward spring. The roads had been bad and the morning that it was to have been held there was an opportunity for a good many to work on their farms, and they stayecT at home to do their stunt. Mr. Blakslee. I want to keep that public meeting before our minds. There were about 38 men there, were there not? Mr. Giles. My remembrance is that there were 39. Mr. Blakslee. I followed the newspaper reports, and thej^ ex- pressed themselves openly in here about what the inspector did. Then later the inspector asked the assembled gentlemen if they had any specific complaints to make with regard to any particular route — to set forth their complaints, which they did. Mr. Giles. I quite agree with that. At a later period in the meet- ing, knowing that our people had grievances, when they had made their statements, the inspectors quietly stole away. ^Ve did not have a large turnout. There were only about 24 there. We protested then, and we protest now, that it Avas not a pul>lic hearing. I think that perhaps we have cleared up some of the discussions in the public meeting that we have had. Xow, in regard to certain other complaints that we have got to make, let me say that I am not like these other gentlemen with pre- pared statements, and you gentlemen will not know when you are through with me. AVhen they run down, they are through. Xow, with reference to a question which the gentleman asked. I want to emphasize this point, if nothing else, and that is if there was a laige jjroportion or any proportion of satisfied people under the conditions it is still not satisfactory to take service away from one family and give it to another. '\A''e stake our claim here on the fact that the rural delivery of mail is designed for and should never be held up until every resident of the State or Xation is served. It is not an impracticable matter; it is not a matter of economy ; but it is a matter of right to the agriculturist. I am not going to spend your time, in long arguments, but if my letters come at 2. 3. 4, or 5 o'clock in the afternoon once a day, and if my answers to them do not go until the next day. and when that is not in time for the outgoing train, that is not service. Why don't you give us the service that the agricul- turists are entitled to'^ I am very strong on that particular point. I do not want to waste a whole lot of your time, but we have some photographs here. Mr. Black. AVill you allow me to interrupt you ^ j\fr. Giles. Certainly. Mr. Black. You have an ideal that all of us sympathize Avith. Mr. Giles. How do you sympathize with it? Mr. Black. Do you not realize that the man who lives at the end of the route and who gets his mail, even when it is on schedule time, three or four hours later than some of the other patrons who live RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 41 at the other end of the route is himself, in a way, discriminated against by reason of the distance that he lives, so that he does not get his mail service as early as some of the other patrons? Mr. Giles. Yes, sir; and if you will allow me, I will answer that right now. Mr. Black. I understand your complaint to be that there should not be any discrimination, while my contention is that in the orderly administi'ation of the service there is bound to be some discrimina- tion by reason of the very fact of the location of a patron's residence. Mr. Giles. I had something to do with laying out or approving some of tlie early routes by going over them with the inspectors. That was in the early history of rural delivery, and frequently we lost a route because that question was frequently raised as to whether the carrier should start this way and come around this way [indi- cating] or whether he should start this other way and come back around this way [indicating]. We fell down on some routes because they could not agree and some wanted him to go another way. Of course that is not practicable. I simply agree with the point that a man living within a mile of the post office on the last end of the route is bound to be discriminated against because of the very nature of the situation. It is impossible to prevent that, but when you take a man who has been on a route off the route, you are taking away the rights of an American citizen. Mr. Holland. Would it not be impossible, on account of the dif- ferent conditions in the different sections of the country, or in dif- ferent sections of a State, to make any general rule or general regu- lation that could be applied to all rural routes? Mr. Giles. Yes, sir; I should think so, but I am not looking for the job. Mr. Holland. As a matter of fact, is it not true that all of those matters have to be left very largely in the discretion of the post office inspectors or in the discretion of the department officials ? ^Ir. Giles. Very likely that is true; but they should have made a caieful inspection of those i-outes before they made any arbitrary changes, and there were people who were put under the jurisdiction of a new p^st office that were not advised when it was done. Mr. Holland. Then, your sole objection is that proper inspections were not made? Mr. Giles. Proper inspections were not made and arbitrary rul- ings wei-e made. Mr. Holland. Tlioi^e insjaections could be made under the prssz'ut law as well as under any other law ? Mr. Giles. Yes, sir; but if you undertake to bring a majority of the people or, a certain proportion of the people and ask Mr. Babcock if the conditions are satisfactory, that will not do, because it is never right to shut any individual out of public service. Mr. Holland. I agree with you, and I think that everybody who ■can be served ought to be served. Mr. Giles. Everybody, and not everybody that can be served. _ jNIr. Holland. I agree with you about that. Let every individual be served. The only thing I was trying to get at Avas this, that it is simply impossible to law down fixed rules that can be applied to this service. As a matter of fact, these things have got to be left largely in the discretion of the officials. Is not that true ? 42 KTJEAL FEEE DELIVERY SEEVICE. :Mr. Giles. I feel that it is tiiie that the officials are cairyin.ii- cer- tain duties, and that is to serve everybody. Wr will not be satished until we o-et 100 per cent delivery and a door-yard delivery at that, so that Ave can make u^o of the parcel ]Mist and other things. Mr. Holland. Let me ask you this (|uestion: Would it bp P"^-yhlp with our present road conditions to deliver mail t(.) eyer>' individual and not require him to go over half a mile or a mile in order to liet his mail from his box f Mr. Giles. Xot perhaps in the winter season and in that northern climate where we are restiicted to horse and buggy carnage. The increased mileage is impracticable. Something has been said here this morning about economy, and we admire economy, but we can not quite see that argument. Xow, I do not want to be quoted wrong in this, but the original ccjntest. if I read hi-tory correctly, for rural delivery came at a time when theie was a strongly organized move- ment all o\-er the Ignited States For penny postage, and it was put up to Congress that it was not fair to reduce postage until they had extended postal service to everybody. I think that is a correct state- ment. Just now we are delighted to mail our letters under :i-cent postage when we formerly paid 3 cents. "We do protest that economy in the matter of rural delivery is somewhat poorly placed at this time if we expect to gi\e ser\'ice to all the people. Mr. HoLLAxD. As a matter of fact, is it not true that the initial appropriation for the rural deliverv service was something like $300,00o Mr. Giles, j. do not understand that it was. It was ^10,000. Mr. Holland. Yes; $10,000, and it is now a little over $00,000,000. Jlr. Giles. Yes, sir. ]Mr. Holland. It is now $68,000,000. That does not evidence any very great economy, does it? i\Ir. Giles. Xo, sir; I do not say that it is so, but it is justice. ]Mr. Holland. I am not denying that proposition at all. ]Mr. Giles. Then, you and I do not differ. Mv. Holland. .\s a matter of fact, Congress has granted every- thing that was asked for the Rural Delivery Service. ]Mr. Girrs. The ([uestion of eronomy has been brought up here this morning, but it is not good policy to economize when you have got to do it at the exijense of any Individ uaPs rights. Xow, in regard to the cjiange of routes, I want to give you one in- stance, but I could multi]dy these instances. Earl Crocker received his mail on rural route Xo. 10 from Sennett. He is an extensive breeder of Gueruse\' cattle, and his advertisements have gone into eveiy State in this t'nion. Sennett Xo. 10 was a tracle-mark to him, but his address is now Auburn Xo. 10. Xow, the people do not know whether Mr. Crocker, of Auburn Xo. 10, is the Guernsey cattleman or not. ^Tliey ha\e taken away from that man his copyrighted busi- ness. When you did that ye,. or beyond his continuous capacity. Any man who knows anything about horse.s knows that is true. Vly. Blakrlee. You would go further, and base the compensation i]i the same way ? I\Ir. Giles. Certainly I would. The carrier should be paid ac- cording to the service that he renders. He can not serve a route of th;i.t length, because it is beyond the capacity of a horse, and auto- niobilcs are impracticable, or. at least, they are impracticable for seven or eight months of the year. Mr. Sanders. In other words, the road conditions, weather con- ditions, and all of those things should be taken into consideration? Mr. Giles. Absolutely: they should be gone over very carefully beforehand. The people to be served should be consulted about those changes, and the changes that were made should have been made only after the people along those routes had had a chance to e.x]n-css their feelings and advance their arguments. ]\rr. Kexhall. Is it the attitude of the Post Office Department to coiT;'ct or ri'adjust those routes that were changed recently? They are now trying to readjust them, are they not? jMr. Giles. I do not know how fast they are going. They have atlju-ted a good many that are entirely satisfactory, and there are a good many that have been promised readjustment, but the read- justments have not been made. This Sennett route has been changed two or three times, but it is not quite satisfactory. Mr. Saxdeus. Don't you think it would be difficult to get 100 per cent efficiency over those roads? jMr. Giles. I did not come here to advertise the condition of the roads in Xew York, but Avhere they are in evidence they certainly should be given consideration. Xo carrier can make 2ri miles on some of those roads. RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 45 Mr. Blakslee. Tllere are some roads in Xew York State on which service was proposed to have been performed, but on which ser\ ice should never have been performed at aU. Mr. Giles. No, sir ; I do not agree with you there. If that ruling is correct, that they ought not to be served because of the roads, then in certain outlying districts where I live there would be no service. If notice was served by the Post Office Department upon the authori- ties that if they did not im])rove the roads, they could not have mail, some people could not be served. Xow, a man who lives on a bad road may not himself be individually responsible for the condition of the road. He may ha^ e done his best to correct it, but he lives there, he pays his taxes there, he supports the Government there, and lie did everything in his powei' to increase the food production on his farm during the late stress. He is entitled to be served. Mr. Blakslee. Eegardless of the condition of the road? Mr. Giles. Yes, sir. ]Mr. Kkndall. I believe you stated you lived in Onondaga County? Mr. Giles. Yes, sir. ^Ir. Kendall. According to this statement here, the original aver- age length of the routes before the changes were made was 23.5 miles^ and that average has been changed now to 24.35 miles. Mr. Giles. I would not dispute that statement. Mr. Kendall, You do not think that is material enough to make any material dijference? ^fr. Giles. I know this, that there were eight families that were formerly served by the Marcellus route who by reason of the change were cut out from service. There were eight families along a mile of road, and they had to take their choice as between two routes and go a longer distance for their mail. But that ser\ ice was restored to them, and that is one thing that I wanted to bring out — the fact that it was restored. (Thereupon, at 1 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.) after eecess. Mr. Gould. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have ]Mr. Boshart, of the Xew York State Agricultural Society, take a few minutes of the committee's time. STATEMENT OF MR. C. FRED BOSHART. iSIr. Sanders. "What is your official position? Mr. Boshart. I am president of the Xew York State Agricultural Society. I represent a great dairy section. Lewis county, which is practically a milk and cheese county, is surrounded by Herkimer, Oneida, Jefferson, and St. Lawrence Counties. I practically live in the great dairy belt of X"ew York State. Further than that, I live in the snow belt, where we have winter, and where it makes it very difficult for five or six months of the year to deliver mail, especially to the rural residents, who live on the hills outside of the valleys. These rural residents are practically dairy farmers. Their whole occupation is dairying, and they depend on the products of then- herds for their livelihood and for their support. It is these farmers 46 RUEAL FKEE DELIVERY SERVICE. who are interested in the daily dairying milk reports — that i^? ^^ the prices of liquid milk, butter, and cheese — and it is A-ery essential that they receive these reports as often and as soon as possible. I was'here at the hearing about the middle of ]May, and we were assured by the officials of the Post Office Department^ that^a hearing would be given to all those who had grievances in New 1 ork i~'tate in the very near future. Those agreements were more than lived up to. I asked for no hearing for the people of my county Avho had grievances, but one was extended to them. We have no grievances in the center of the county or in the north end, but in the south end of the countv there Avere five or six rural routes which were altered and changed, and there was considerable discontent with the altera- tion of those routes. I Avish to state here this afternoon that the meeting for the post-office routes that run into Lewis County was held at Boonville, Avhich is just across the line in Oneida Comity, because it Avas easy of access for those people Avho wanted to be heard. That Avas an open meeting; it was a farmers' or patrons' meeting; and I for one would like to comi^liment the Post Office Department for sending us a man so fair as Inspector Irish. I called the meeting to order myself. Thev selected as chairman one of the rural patrons, and the secretarv Avas also a patron of the rural route. The patrons of the rural routes conducted the hearing. All of those Avho had griev- ances at that time were given an opportunity to be heard, and they Avere heard. JMr. Irish had there a map shoAving definitely all the routes in our section and the routes, in colored pencil, that had been changed. Mr. Irish also had gone over one route, No. 2, out of Boonville, which had been lengthened 5 or 6 miles. It had been lengthened so that it was virtually impracticable for the rural carrier to cover it the greater part of the year, but not all of the year, especially in the dry summer months Av'hen it could be covered. Mr. Irish stated it was the worst rural route he had ever seen, and that Avas Avhere a ' good deal of the discontent came. They had divided up route No. 1 from Boonville, and the people Avho Avere served fir^t on route No. 1 Avere served last on the revised route No. 2 out of Boonville, and that created considerable complaint, because a part of the time they received mail and a part of the time they did not. Mr. Irish agreed to go to the different post offices from AA'hich the route started and go over the routes Avith the carriers and postmasters. That, I believe, he did. But not having heard anything as the result of that meet- ing, Avhich Avas, I think, the next week after we were here, I went doAvn to the post offices a week ago to-morrow to see what had been done. At Turin I found that in the change up there the starting point had been taken from Turin and put at Lyons Falls. Turin is a considerable rural town, a prosperous little village, with a large milk condenser there, which makes from 90,000 to 100,000 pounds of milk a day into Borden's condensed milk. By taking that route from Turin and carrying it to Lyons Falls it seemed to cause a mix up in their mail delivery system; it seemed as though they could not get their mails in promptly or get their mails out promptly, at least not as promptly as formerly. I understood from the Turin postmaster that Mr. Irish was going to recommend the restoration of Turin as the starting point of that route, as formerly, and lay it out as practically agreed upon by the KTJRAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 47 postmaster and the inspector. At Boonville I was told by the post- master that route No. 2, as formerly laid out, would be restored, and what was cut off from Boonville, No. 2, added and restored to Con- stableville, which would make it satisfactory. Eoute No. 1 was to be restored as formerly. Many protests came from the people who came first on route No. 1, but when revised came last on route No. 2. The people who were served last on route No. 1 before the revision were more than satisfied because they were served first on that route, but there was no one there who said they had any fault to find with the old route No. 1 before the change was made. So I do not think, even if they have a long petition from there, that they have any- thing to complain about. Then I went to the town of Port Leyden. There are two routes that go out of Port Leyden. It is my im- pression that when they readjusted these routes — I am not quite clear on this, but I think I am right — there was a small route of 15 or 16 miles that was consumed in the readjustment and that left one route less up there, but the postmaster at Port Leyden advised me that ISIr. Irish looked at the matter as he did, and that route No. 2 would be restored as formerly and 7 miles in the town of Leyden would be added to it, which was satisfactory to the carrier, the postmaster, and the inspector, and that that would be taken from the new Boonville route No. 1, and that route No. 1 was to be restored as before the change. The great trouble that comes up in that country, as I said, is in the winter, fall, and spring. During that time it is impossible to cover a route that is longer than 22, 23, or 24 miles; it is beyond the endurance of anj^ horse or horses to make the routes during those seasons. Mr. Ramseitir. Are they hilly? Mr. BosHART. Yes; they are very hilly, and they are muddy. A^T-iile we have excellent State roads in New York — and my county has as large a proportion as any of its size and wo have nothing to complain of — these routes have very little State roads. For instance, my home town is Lowville and we have no complaint to make. We have one route there that goes out 22.4 miles and it has no State road ; it may have a little town and coitnty road, or a little stone high- way that has been imjDroved locally. Then we have route No. 2 that has 22.3 miles and it has 13 miles of State road; then we have route No. 3, with 22. .5 miles, with 6 miles of State road; then we have route No. 4, which has 22.1 miles, with no State road. You see, those deliveries, as a rule, do not follow State roads. The State roads are our main market thoroughfares and in order to reach the rural populace the rural carriers have to go into the interior, where they have very poor roads in the spring and fall and deep snows during the winter. These difficulties could have been obviated if the inspector could have gone up in that north country in the spring, fall, or winter, when conditions are worse, because if they go to revise the route it is generally done when there is good going and when you can get around and they do not run up against the hardships and they are not apparent at that time. Therefore we have come to the conclu- sion that no route should be changed until after the matter has been thoroughly gone over by the postmaster, the inspector, and the rural carrier. 48 EUEAl, FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. I do not know that it is necessary to take any more of your val- uable time. ^Yhlle these changes in my county have not been made, Mv. Irish informed me to-dav that he has recommended the changes and that they will be made. " The changes are for the betterment ot the service. ^Yhen we came here in Max we a^k;•d for the re-tora- tion of the rural routes that had been changed, but I do not think either myself or my friends failed to realize that there were routes which needed changing and readjustment as time goes on. ihere is no route that is fixed to-day that can be lixed for 10 or -iU yc'^i'S hence, because time and conditions change the necessities. I think that all of those things can be nicely adjusted if the department and local people will get together and adjust them between themselves, and it is my hope that it will be more of a family affair m the future than it has been in the past. If there are any questions I can answer I will be glad to answer them, but I think I have covered the conditions m the north country, in which I live, as well as I know how. I live in one end of the State while mv friend Lowell lives in the other end of the State. Mr. K.\MsF.YEi;. If I get your attitude correctly, it is not so much legislation tliat is needed as'the exercise of better sense and judgment on the iiai't of the Post Office Departuient^ Mr. EosHART. Exactly: just the same as all family difficulties can be righted if thev are e understood in whatever I might say as speaking in any spirit like that. I am very frank to say that while I have been a Member of the House I have always been treated with what I regarded as extreme courtesy liy the Postmaster General and by the Post Office Department and I have appreciated that. I knovv only about my home county — t)nondaga County — comprising the city of Syracuse, with a population of something over 160,000, ancl 19 populous towns. Prior to the going into effect of the order changing the mail routes in that county as of ]May 1, my observation was that the people were generally satisfied with the service they M'cre receiving. ^Iv infor- mation is — if I am incorrect the representative of the department will correct me — that before the order went into effect there were some 77 or 78 routes in that county. Mr. Blakslee. Eighty-seven. BURAL FEEB DBUVBEY SERVICE. 55 Mr. Magee. Approximately that. By this change 11 of them were eliminated. Of course, you can see that if you have 87 routes in one county and you eliminate 11 of them, while you may effect some economy in operation yet you are bound to upset the rural mail service of that county; you must lengthen the remaining routes ia order to give the people service. That has caused an immense amount of trouble in Onondaga County. In fact, there was a storm of vigorous protest from the people in my county. This protest was voiced by the Syracuse Post-Standard, a morning daily newspaper, a great newspaper of that city, with a large circulation in central and northern New York, and this newspaper took up the cudgel in behalf of the people, championed their cause, and has rendered, in. my judgment, a great public service. It was intimated at the hearing in May that this was a sort of newspaper propaganda, but I want to say to the committee — in my mind I have no doubt about it — that it was not anything in the nature of a propaganda at all; it was simply taking care of the people, so far as the newspaper could, in that vicinity. After that storm of protest had arisen the department sent inspectors there and they had a hearing at Syracuse. 1 think, as stated here, that was one of the first hearings. There has been a good deal of criticism in reference to that liearmg. I think there were several days of hearings. I was not present, but I know about it from what I have been told by those present and from what I read in the public press^ and I assume that what was done was unintentional on the part of the representatives of the Post Office Department. As related here, the representatives of the Government, those who were interested on behalf of the Government, made light of the situation at the opening of the hearing and tried to impress upon the public that the people were entirely satisfied and that there was no just cause of complaint and all that sort of thing. Instead of having a hearing, as your committee has had here to-day, where everybody could have a say, be quizzed, etc., after this general statement had been made those present were asked if they had any criticism to step forward, and they were taken in a corn'or and spoken to. That did not satisfy the people at all. I do not impute any un- worthy motive on the part of anybody in connection with that, and probably it never occurred to those conducting the hearing but what the people were entirely satisfied. Of course, you know as well as I do that farmers do not speak out like some of us and express what they think. Some redress has been made in that county. I understand that five of the routes that were eliminated under the order have been restored and that the restoration of others is under consideration. I do not say that the department has turned a deaf ear to the people, for I do not believe that. The department has not turned a deaf ear to me, and I want to be fair to the department and to give the department all the credit due it. I Avill just give you one illustration. One of the changes was on the Jamesville-Pompey route, and the carrier was very much dissatisfied and he came in and saw me. I sent a com- munication to the Postmaster General with reference to rescinding- the order. I received a reply that the Post Office Department would not rescind the order. 56 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. The jjeople came in to see me and I told them to go and get a peti- tion signed by the people on the I'oiite and express in the petition their grievance or complaint specifically, so that the department could see exactly what your grievance was. They did that, and they brought in a petition, I should say, which was signed by 300 or 400 people. I sent it, with a communication, to the Post Office Department and within a reasonable time the department prompaly reversed itself and restored the route. Other routes have been restored in my county. Now, in reference to the suggestion made by some members of the committee, it seems to me and I have always advised that the practical way to get at this question is, if the patrons upon any particular route have any ground for complaint, they should get up a petition to the De- partment signed by all the patrons on the route who, are willing to sign the petition, or have any complaint, stating exactly and in de- tail what the complaint is, and then take up that particular case with the department. I do not know how we can adjust any grievance ^vhich the patrons on any particular route have in any other way. Under the law the Post Office Department has very broad powers and a large amount of discretion, and it seems to me that is the onlj^ practicable and feasible way to get at the proposition. I am sure that so far as the people of my district are concerned they are anxious to cooperate with the Post Office Department. All they want is good service, efficient service, everybody served; that, as I understand, is all that they are after here, and if my people could feel, and I think if these representatives of my State who have come before you could feel, that they have the good wishes of the committee, and that the committee, so far as they can reasonably exercise their power, will cooperate in doing what they can to give them better service, they will feel they have been repaid for coming down to Washington and presenting their case to the representatives of the Government. I thank you. Mr. Sanders. I should like to have you give us your judgment as to the adoption of House resolution 33, upon which we have had this hearing. Mr. IMagee. My judgment u^Don that resolution, if you want me to speak exactly as I feel about it, is that interfering with the ad- ministi-ation of a department is a most delicate question. Whether there is an^- jDrecedent in existence for the direction bv Congress as to the administration of a department I do not know. I have not looked up that particular question, but if I were to pass upon that ■question myself I would want to examine pretty thoroughly to see if there is any precedent for such a step. I have not examined for a precedent or gone into that question. I can only repeat what I have repeated before — it seems to me that it is a matter of adminis- tration upon the part of the Post Office Department and a matter of hearty cooperation between the department and the people. The people want to get next to the department. That is the feeling of all of these men so far as I know. I know that all my people have -wanted is to feel that they can go to the department and present their grievances and get proper redress. That, I think, is the feeling of my people. They are willing to meet the representatives of the ■Government more than halfway. All they Avant, as I have said before, is efficient service and service to evervbodv. EURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 57 Mr. Rajmseyer. I take it from the testimony here to-day that there does not seem to be any disposition on the part of any of tliose \\ho have testified to talie away from the Post Office Department the discretion, but complaint has been directed against tlie manner in which tlie Post Office Department has seen fit to exercise that dis- cretion, especially in the State of New York. I further gather — and I want to see whether what I have gathered is in accordance with your views — that the changes were made, especially on the 1st of May, the wholesale changes, without consulting anybody up there especially ? Mr. Maoee. Yes, sir. Mr. Eajeseyee. Only on the part of the inspectors? JNlr. Magee. Without any inspection or any thorough inspection. Mr. R.vjrsEYER. Since that time an inspector has been sent out and the Post Office Department has reversed itself in a number of cases, restored some routes and made changes to suit the people. Could not all this trouble have been avoided if the Post Office Department would adopt the policy of meeting the people when they contem- plate changes and talking this thing over and following the judg- ment of men who know the conditions in the places where the changes are going on, rather than to first make the changes and then consult the people? Mr. Magee. I think it is a matter of administration as suggested by you. Of course, there is another thing in my State that all of the members of this committee can well appreciate, and that is for four or five months in the year we have a very severe climate and some- times the thermometer goes down as low as 16 degrees below zero. We are very likely to have, especially in my county, which is sard to be in a cloud belt, heavy falls of snow. Xow, then, climatic con- ditions, I think, should be taken into consideration, and be "iven very serious consideration, in the adjustment of a mail route in order to give the people any sort of service during the cold months of the year, and it seems to me that proper adjustments can be reached by mutual cooperation between the department and the people. That is my judgment. Mr. Holland. And proper adjustments have been reached in a number of cases, Mr. Magee. as I understand, where the patrons of the office have consulted with the department. Mr. Magee. In some cases. Xot all of them have been adjusted yet, but I hope they will be. Mr. Holland. A great many are in progress of adjustment now. as I understand. Mr. Magee. But, of course, there are a great many complaints that do not receive much attention. For instance, if I may take the time of the committee to mention just a very small one. It was called to my attention two or three times, and I thought I would take it up with the department some day, but I have not yet done so, but to illustrate, we will say that there was one route that terminated at a certain point and other route that terminated, say a mile distant from that point. Now, at the time the routes were laid out there were no houses for the length of that mile, but now one or two houses have been built about half way betw^een the two points and the de- partment will not extend or will not order the mail carrier on either 58 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SBRVIOE. route to go and deliver the mail at those houses which have been built since the routes were established. Mr. Black. And if they did the carrier might object. Mr. Magee. Yes ; he might object. Mr. Holland. There are no fixed rules you could pass that the de- partment could follow in every case. It is largely a matter of dis- cretion with the department, after all, is it not? Mv. Magee. I have always thought they could adjust these things satisfactorily if they were so inclined. Mr. Sanders. We thank you very much, Mr. Magee. Are there any further witnesses, Mr. Gould? Mr. Gould. Nothing in particular, Mr. Chairman, except I just want to say that so far as those in New York State, who have been interested in trying to secure corrections in the service are concerned, that they have felt that the inspectors and those who were sent up to investigate conditions since the trouble arose have most conscien- tiously and thoroughly and honestly tried to canvass the situation and refer to the department their conclusions in a very fair manner and have been most courteous and efficient. In closing, I might say that if the committee desires any of the data which has been collected throughout the State to support the various figures which have been given, or any photographs, if the clerk will call on me, we will be glad to furnish them. I thank the committee very much. The Chaikman. Mr. Blakslee, do you want to be heard on this situation? ■ STATEMENT OF ME. JAMES I. BLAKSLEE, FOURTH ASSISTANT POSTMASTER GENERAL. Mr. Blakslee. Yes; I think it would be quite proper, ilr. Chair- man, if we were to illustrate and give the various reasons for our action in this matter and in all others of like character. The first thing that I notice that we all agree on — the department, the Congress, and the visiting gentlemen — is that there should be mail service extended to all possible rural patrons. That imjjlies that it should be adequate mail service, and ever since 1913, when I first moved into this city, that has been my ambition and desire, and at the same time it has been the fixed policy of the department, to extend mail facilities to all possible postal patrons. As an evidence of the fact that that has been the policy, we can point to the fact that there are to-day 4,980,000 additional patrons in the rural-delivery service, served more adequately than they ever were l)efore, even though we have extended that service to them without the addition of one single dollar of tax levied upon the people. During that time there have been tremendous increases in the amount of money expended in the delivery of mail on rural routes, the appropriation having increased from '$47,000,000 to $68,800,000, or a diiference of $21,800,000 added to .the appropriation, which Congress has made in the interest of rural patrons. The Congress has increased the compensation of the carriers engaged in the col- lection and delivery of mail on rural I'outes $21,000,000. At the same time we may take some credit for having increased the num- ber of ]jatrons provided with service to the extent of 4,900,000 with- KURAL TREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 59 out additional expense, and the results which have been further evi- denced in the fact that we have reduced the cost per patron from $1.97 in 1913, to $1.91 in 1918. I do not know whether it would be considered a meritorious proposition everywhere, but I rather think there will be a lot of people who will feel tliat this has been a meritoi'ious administrative performance. In doing so there has been elimination of a great many features of special privilege, j'ou might call it, in rural territories. There were some locations, in my own State of Pennsylvania, where double daily service was per- formed; I mean by that, people received two times a day service. Mr. Sanders. On rural routes? jSIi-. Blakslee. On rupal routes, this did not obtain in other ter- ritory throughout the countrj\ Of course, withdrawing one tour of service provided an opportunity to place-that particular expense or operation in one locality in some other territory that did not have even one delivery a day. That is one of the methods we pursued in extending service to additional people without additional expense. All over the country it was evident that loutes had been put in operation, not because of necessary postal deliveries, but because there had been urgent requests, petitions, and activity on the part of some patrons as compared with others. So that in some com- munities there were as many as 8 or 10 routes traveling out over the same road for a distance of from 8 to 10 miles from the postal center from which they emanated. Thus appeared "lO or 60 miles of duplication of travel on a certain single road, which was equal in length to three additional rural routes. When some of that duplication was abolished we wore enabled to put service in where there was no mail delivery whatevei', the net result of which was extended service to 5,000,000 people. The average length of route in the United States was increased but 1.6 miles, and that notwithstanding the establishment of 833 motor routes of 50 miles or more in length. There were not any routes of that length in 1913, but adding 833 routes of 50 miles or more in length to the number of routes we already had, making the high average of 50 mil6s or more a part of the genei'al average, results in but 1.6 miles additional of mileage per route. Xow, the Congress recognized the fact that the delivery of mail should be extended to all possible rural patrons, when they directed in sj^ecific legislation that Me should extend mail facilities to all rural patrons at the earliest possible date, and that is exactly what we are doing in New York State, and exactly what we have been doing in every State. In this operation in New York, in 11 counties we have extended mail facilities to 1,463 families or nearly 7,000 additional patrons, and have inconvenienced' from the latest reports which are not altogether complete yet, Washington County not having been co\'ered, 130 families. Now, the question has been raised as to what should constitute . collection and delivery service. 100 per cent delivery, as it is com- monly asserted, means delivery at the patron's door. Our endeavor has been to so adjust the routes that thev would not be more than half a mile from the door of any rural family, and we did that in NeAv York State with a few exceptions — a very limited number of exceptions. 60 EUEAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Wlien the revision of existing facilities was first inaugurated as a definite policj-, we started it in Pennsylvania, from which .State I am a citizen," and in Texas, the State from which the Postmaster General comes, it being considered possible that some one might feel that we were plaj'ing favorites if we were to exemist our own States from any readjustment or revision; furthermore, that we might be giving the North a little favorable treatment, or the South some little unusual consideration. So we made it a point to be very care- ful to adjust our own immediate localities first. From thence we ex- tended the program to various other States ; for instance, Iowa and Mr. Ramseyer knows of that occasion and that it created a great deal of discussion, dissension, strife, and so forth-, and we also extended it in Michigan. After some eight or ten months of activity in this direction the department was enabled to extend facilities to every single patron whose petition was pending in the department, to all the people Avho had asked it, so that there were but -lO petitions in the field for investigation. "Whereupon, on June 3. lOl."). we addressed the following letter to each Congressman then sitting in the House of Representatives, and that letter reads as follows: r>urin,n tli<' past two iimntlis, anil after iniisnitation with the Postmaster Oenei'al, I have been steadily ens'nserl in a readjustment of the Rural Delivery Service in several sei'tious of the country where uneconomical conditions prevail. Xo material curtailment of service has resulted anywhere, but, on the con- trary, tlie department has been able, by effecting elian;;es in some routes where the carriers are to continue the use of iKU'se-drawn vehicles and liy tlie introduc- tion of automobile equipment on other routes, to extend the benetits of rural mail delivei-y to nearly l,()(l(i,(i()() new patrons without increasing the aggregate expenditure. Xo patrons will l)e seriously inconvenienced, and the resultant reductions in the cost of operation are such as to make available the necessary funds for extending the service in the immediate vicinity of the readjusted routes, when necessary, and also to est:iblish every rural route petiticjned for, and upon which action has been withheld within the department. It is the desire of the Postmaster General that any funds made available througli these read.jnstments sliail lie ex]iended in the imi)rovement of the Rural Deliveiy Scivice to tlie end that a larger number of citizens may lie served and the collection and delivei-y of mail on rural routes slandartlized thi'oughout the country. This conteii plates that, as far as is possible, all the jieople shall lie treated alike, and I shall be pleased to receive from you sugges- tions in regai-d to any reasonable extension of the Rural Service in .vour con- givssional district which can probably lie satistied by a revision and read,iust- ment such as I have indicated above. This letter of June .T was followed by monerous personal letters to various Representatives in Congress asking them if there was in their territory any place where we could establish additional mail facili- ties. I do not think we could have gone further. In a public ad- di-ess at a postmasters' convention in Sliehigan, which was published and widelv distributed, we called upon rural patrons to address us directly. "We called ui:ion carriers at conventions which we attended to give us suggestions where we could increase and improve the Rural Delivery Service, having on hand available funds that were secured through the readjustment of existing facilities. In fact, we made every effort to carry out the policy of the extension of service to all i^ossible rural ))atroiis. ' Now, the rexisions occurred in what manner? At first, I will admit that we took the map and drew a line and went to it. jNIr. KTJRAL FEEE DELIVERY SERVICE. ' 61 Ramseyer and a few other active gentlemen in Congress called our attention to the weakness of that kind of a performance very quickly, and we revised our methods, so that thereafter we made an attempt to secure evidence, not only from postmasters in the communities that were to be affected but from any other individuals whom we thought might have an interest in the proposed changes that we intended to inaugurate. AVe also upon occasion sent representatives from the department to these localities. We did not send them to all. I will admit we did not send them to every locality where we pro- posed to make changes, but we did make a sincere effort to ascer- tain road conditions, climatic conditions, and possible improvements that could be made. Whereupon we did make an office revision, and, like in New York State, we sent the results of these revisions, with orders to place the same in operation, two weeks before the proposed changes were effective, to the several postmasters who would be af- fected by the changes. Consequently, there was opportunity between the time of the oi'ders and the time when they became effective for people to enter protests or objections; possibly not so extensive and widespread as the present objections which have appeared, but never- theless in some form we could have heard from postmasters, pai'ticu- larly, of any serious trouble. Mr. GotTLD. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt Mr. Blakslee just a second to ask what effect that had and how many postmasters really objected to the changes, if he can state offhand? ilr. Blakslee. There were not any that appeared in the depart- ment. The changes in New York State as of May 1 and June 1 and June 15 followed similar changes made in 1917, just prior to the war — in fact, during the prosecution of the war — in Chautauqua County, Erie County, and several other counties. We heard nothing from those changes except that postal patrons felt that there was no reason why they should seriously contest the changes then, because it was during a time of war, and they figured we were working this thing on a basis of economj', and that we would thus save a lot of money that might be used in the prosecution of the war. The war is now over, and they think we should go there and make a readjustment of the situation created at that time, and we propose to do so. Mr. Gould. I have a situation at Phelps, N. Y., which is aggra- vated. Mr. Blakslee. Yes. We propose to go there. Naturally, we were under obligations to do this first, as there were protests and objec- tions received here. Mr. Ma GEE. May I ask you a question? Mr. Blakslee. Yes. Mr. Magee. Do you know whether those notices were sent to each county ? Mr. Blakslee. The orders were sent to each postmaster. Mr. Magee. It was suggested to me that, so far as my own county, Onondaga, is concerned, that they never heard of them and did not know anything of any changes at all until after they were made. Mr. Blakslee. You understand the patrons may not have heard of them, but the postmaster was given a ne.w description of the route and he had to have that in order to notify the carriers who were- to be affected. 62 EUEAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. Magee. What I had reference to was whether there was any public notice. Mr. Blakslee. No; I do not think there was any public notice except what the postmasters, of their own accord, may have dis- tributed. However, that was the method pursued. Now, the statement made as to the attitude of the department is substantially correct. It is our desire to si^■e 100 per cent rural deliverv service. There are 52,000,000 rural patrons. 28.000,000 of whom are served liv rural routes, over 1,100,000 miles of highway daily. Tliere are 13,000,000 served by third and fourth class post offices. There are 2,000,000 served bv star routes, covering a mileage of 600,000 miles daily. Now, that leaves about 1,000,000 families m the United States who receive no adequate mail service. Conse- quently, carrying out the directions of Congress and following our own policy in connection with the extension of service, we are try- ing to reach those 1,000,000 families. Naturally, they are at the out- posts of civilization, and it would be a very, very expensive opera- tion to attempt to do it immediately. They are people who live quite some distance from existing highways and transportation facili- ties. Nevertheless, we are going to struggle alone the line of aiving that 1,000,000 families the same service as the -Js.OOO.OOO get. AVe are going to try. AA'e are going to try to do it as the farmer tries fo sell his produce at as near cost to the American people as it is possible to do it. Consequently, when the committee is appealed to to provide a method whereby it shall be done they will find the department meeting them more than halfway on that proposition. Concerning this resolution, I know that iNIr. Gould is anxious to secure maximum service in his district. I know that he does not want it to be provided at unusual or illegitimate expense. I am just as certain that every one of these gentlemen who come here is as sincere in his attitude as I am. This resolution as framed by ^Nlr. Gould would seriously injure the Rural Delivery Service because at the time these oi'ders were issued there were also orders issued for between seven and eight hundred new establishments and exten- sions of routes in other localities in the United States besides New York State, and this resolution says, " That the Postmaster General be, and lie is hereby, directed to suspend the operation of all orders issued by him," which would be withdrawing the service from thou- sands of patrons who have been supplied with service in other con- gressional districts besides those directely affected. Mr. Gould. May I interrupt you just a second? I will tell you one reason why I put that resolution in, and that was because I could not get any action from your department in regard to one situation in my district, and I was hoping that maybe I could wake you people up a little bit. I will be i^erfectly frank and honest aljout it. That is the only way, I find, I can get results from some of the departments down here. INIr. Blaksi.ee. Mr. Gould, we will admit that yo\i have arrived, and in that connection let us make it worth while. Havino- joined together here for a purpose, I want to have the assistance and'^support of the committee on this question of extension of service to all pos- sible postal patrons, and, among other things, let us take into con- sideration a few of the legislative restrictions under which we are compelled to operate. We can not establish a route longer than 3G RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 63 miles or shorter than 50 miles. There is a twilight zone between 36 and 50 miles that the legislative branch says the administrative branch must not intei-est itself in in rural delivery service. Xow, there is territory west of the Mississippi, miles upon miles of it, where there are a limited number of people, and where a limited number of boxes would be erected on a route, but wliere an enormous quantity of mail would be delivered. We have routes 36 miles long operating daily in North Dakota, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and else- where, that serve but 85 families, but each family is domiciled on a ranch where possibly 50 or 60 employees are getting mail from the one box. The net result is that the quantity of mail carried on those routes is phenomenal, reaching as high as thirty or forty thousand pieces a month. There is nothing like that in the East, and absolutely nothing like it in the South, and yet that territory is covered by horse- drawn vehicles, the carrier using not one horse but two, and sometimes four horses, and an additional legislative restriction is that we can not pay him to-day over $1,525 for the service. The expense of operating the route is too high for the aniount of equipment he is compelled to furnish. Necessarily, therefore, I ask you to bring forth out of this meeting some relief from the restrictions we are compelled to labor under in the delivery of mail to all possible rural patrons, to the num- ber of 1,000,000 as they appear in our statistics. Mr. Eamseyeb. Have you undertal?en to draw up an amendment that would cover that situation, Mr. Blakslee ? Mr. Blakslee. Well, I presented to the committee, as you will remember, Mr. Ramseyer, several amendments concerning the com- pensation of carriers. I stated that I would like to see some other factor besides the mileage factor enter into the compensation of carriers. I would like to see the hours of service rendered per day be utilized as a factor, because, for instance, the territory repre- sented by Representative Paige, the very type of territory we might use as an illustration. The routes are short. In one place, with 10- m'ile routes, the carrier at the time I made the calculation, received $660, but he was on the route 11 hours a clay and carried something like 35.000 pieces of mail. It was a heavily congested territory, with numerous patrons but a short route. That condition prevails in 2,000 instances in the United States where carriers are getting less than they are entitled to that I know about. I presented to the committee a compilation of 4,600 cases where I thought the carriers were getting more than they were entitled to because their tour of duty, including their office work, did not exceed five hours per day; and yet they received the maximum compensation, exactly the same as a carrier would get who operated a route 24 miles long and worked 8 or 10 hours a day. So out of this hearing I hope to get some friends for administra- tive leeway with which we can provide maximum of service to all of the possible postal patrons. Mr. Saudees. Mr. Blakslee, in that connection, if you had the wide discretion you suggest, it would require very careful inspection of every route to determine the conditions as they exist on that route and the requirements. Mr. Blakslee. Mr. Sanders, in almost every State in the Union the possibility of readjustment is negligible. We have revised, since 64 KUKAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 1913, the service in almost every State, I think, with the exception of a portion of Tennessee, a portion of Kentucky, five counties in New York, and a portion of Ohio. Those are tlie only States that have not had all of the viseless or unnecessary operations of every kind eliminated. Now, as I say, having arrived at that point where we can saj' sincerelj' we have a clean service, noAV is the time to begin to build up a Rural Delivery Service that will be of value to the rural and city patrons. There should be certainly some routes pro- vided with daily double service, because they carry an enormous quantity of mail and bring great quantities of produce, or would bring great quantities of produce, from rural territory, direct to the consumer in city territory. I ask the committee when the time arrives for a hearing to con- sider the question of giving us administrative leeway to improve this service, especially in the territory where the house cleaning has been accomplished, where there is no more of service which was established sometimes to give a carrier a job, sometimes to give a postmaster more compensation at a fourth-class office, sometimes tO' increase the importance or the identity or the influence of an inland town, sometimes to make one particular community as against an- othci' community more of a commercial center, which in New York State, I think the gentlemen will agree with me, occurred at ex- actly two points — Holcomb and East Bloomfield — and they certainly did raise a row because the routes had been transferred from East Bloomfield to Holcomb. ^Nlr. Gould. I have a petition about that. Mr. Blakslke. You will get them both ways, I have no doubt, and the answer is that we are more than ready in the department to meet with the agricultural interests, to meet with the postal patrons, to* attend hearings Avith the Congressman from the district, and we do no give a cuss whether he is a Democrat, a Eepublican, a Socialist, or what his politics may be ; we want to get right down to the game of giving maximum service in the deliAery of rural mail and we are ready to join with anybody, any time, anywhere, in order to do it ; and we will make the assertion that we are thankful to the Post- Standard for raising the question regardless of the fact that their at- titude was a little unfriendly when it started. I believe to-day their attitude is conciliatory and friendly, and in that spirit they will never have any cause to find fault with the Post Office Department. We will do our share, and whether I remain at the head of this particular administrative function or not they will find me here, and any agri- cultui'al expert or interest will find me here, ready and williiig and glad to go along on anything that may be offered that will advance the welfare and the interests of the rural population through the ex- tension of rural facilities. I do not know what further I can say in connection with this joint resolution. It would be a serious injury to the service to have it passed; yet I would like to have a little complimentary comment, if it can be given to me, for having tried to do my duty in this respect as in every other. The inspectors are here, and if you would like to question any of them as to the meetings or as to the results of their investigations, they are at your service, or if there is any gentleman here from out KUEAL FEEE DELIVERY SERVICE. 65 of the city who can give us a location for a new route or for tlie extension of a route, I would be glad to hear it. Mr. Rajiseyer. I \Yould like to know just what you consider adecjuate rural mail service. What do you contemplate in the way of first-class service— service at a distance of half a mile or three- quarters of a mile ? Mr. Blaksuee. At the present time, with the number of persons still without any service, we think that half a mile from the door of the patron should be the farthest that he should be removed, where we are able to give service at all. Mr. Eajiseyer. When you say that you have added 4,000,000 new patrons to the Rural Delivery Service since 1913, do you mean to say that all of those 4,000,000 patrons are within half a mile of service? Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. INIr. Ramseyee. And if a person gets his mail in a box on the route, you count him ? IMr. BlaksixEe. No, sir ; I did not in the tabulation that was made, because that tabulation was made for some of the routes prior to the erection of the boxes. At the time we establish a route, there will be so many patrons, and then there will be so many patrons added to the route. For instance, in Eaton County, Mich., we had a revision of the routes there which resulted in the extension of service to 13,950 new patrons. When that service was established the 13,950 patrons were added to the number that we had accommodated before. It is possible that they did not erect boxes at the time we established the service, but, nevertheless, they were in a position to erect boxes. Mr. Ramseyee. They were within half a mile of the service? Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyee. In counting patrons, do you count the heads of families or every member of the family ? jNIr. Blakslee. A patron is an individual over 10 years of age. That is what we count as patrons. The average is about four and six-tenths members in a family. That was established by a congres- sional committee years ago. Mr. Ramseyee. To get the number of families added to the service^ 3'ou would divide the number of patrons by four and six-tenths ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyee. There is just one other question, and that is with regard to the manner in which the Post Office Department exercises its discretion in establishing routes, in extending routes, and in elimi- nating routes. It appears that complaints have been made here to- day by witnesses that up in New York quite a number of changes were inaugurated and routes eliminated without consulting any of the patrons, but that after complaints were filed and meetings were held up there, inspectors were sent over the I'outes, and it appears that some routes have been reestablished, and that changes that were made before have been rectified. Now, the question I want to jaut to you is. Why would it not be practicable, before makings any changes at all, for the postal officials to confer with the patrons m the same way that they did after those protests came in, and thus avoid so much fric- tion? 128079— ]f) 5 66 RURAL PREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. Blakslee. There are several reasons why it would l)e advisable one way as well as the other, or why tlie way we did it would do as well as the other way. What I mean by that is that we have a cer- tain amount of confidence in the representations made to us by our local representatives, such as the postmasters. The postmaster is supposed to be familiar with the attitude of the patrons in the vicinity of his office. The postmasters make represen- tations to us as to how the service can be improved, and, naturally, we will try to improve the service as they make the representations, un- less it is shown conclusively that it is not practicable. Now, when you attempt to interview all of the patrons involved, as in the instance I have just mentioned of 55,000, you would surely have con- flicting views and a long, loud controversy over the possibility of a suspected or presumed cliange. Mr. Ramseyer. The feeling of the average man is that if he is not consulted he is insulted. If you would consult him and then go ahead with the changes that were proper, he might not feel offended at all, but if you make the changes without giving him any reason for them, he becomes insulted. Mr. Blakslee. But if we consulted every man and then failed to follow his desires, we would surely have him upon our bacl^s. Mr. Ramseyee. Of course, when you had considted him and had explained to him the reasons for pursuing a certain course, or your reason for intending to pursue a certain course, he would put all of that over against his own judgment. Mr. Blakslee. I remember that in some instances we did prior to making certain readjustments clearly explain to the patrons the delinquencies or defects they might have to suffer and how we in- tended to extend, through their inconvenience, facilities to a large number of their neighbors who were without service, but they did not care for the interests of their neighbors. All they wanted was their service. It did not make any difference how many new ones would receive mail facilities, all that the present j^atron wanted was his owm service. Of coui'se, there is a little human nature involved in this. Mr. Ramseter. You are going up there to New York now, meeting with these people, and are conferring with them in the readjustment of this seivice, and I want to linow why you could not have done that in the first instance instead of doing it after the changes were made? Mr. Blakslee. It may be possible that there could be Mr. Ramsexee (interposing). I am trying to find out why you did not do that. Mr. Sanders. Is it not a fact that you may contemplate a change and may give it such_ publicity as you see fit, but there would be very little interest shown in it until the change was accomplished? Then, the objection would be apparent, and,"of course, everybody would be up in arms making protest. Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. Mr. Sanders. In other words, they can not anticipate the exact new conditions to which they would be subjected? Mr. Blakslee. No, sir. Another peculiar thing that goes along with the psychology of it is the attitude of the individual. I do not EtTBAL FREE DELIVERY SERYIOE. 67 oelieve we have a dozen letters in regard to the service that we have extended to 1,500 families up there, but two or three months after this, when their boxes are erected, if we should try to change the service back to the old system, they would want to murder us. For the first two or three weeks or months, we have a lot of protests, and then we begin to get commendatory statements about it. Mr. Kendall. It has been suggested that the inspectors should be selected in the neighborhood in which they make their inspections. That is done pretty generally, is it not ? _ Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir; it is; but there are many changes in the inspection force, and transfers from one section of the country to another are necessary in order to keep the experienced inspector on the particular operations to which he is best adapted. It sometimes occurs that you must assign a Texas inspector to work in Massachu- setts because he happens to be familiar with the character of service reciuired. Some of them are expert in depredation work, some in rural-delivery work, and some in city post-office matters. They are familiar -with their particular enterprises, and therefore it is im- possible always to find a qualified inspector in the vicinity where, the work must be done. Mr. Kendall. I find that to be true in my district. Mr. Blakslee. Yes, sir; we have numerous inspectors in different places, and the majority of them are assigned to certain territory, where they stay for years. Mr. Eamseyi5h. Have you ever considered the plan of dividing the United States into regions for the purpose of administering the Rural Delivery Service? As it is now complaints from California have to come clear to Washington, but if you had the New England States in one region and the Pacific States in another region, those changes could be considered by persons -who understood the topo- graphical and geographical conditions of the particular region. Mr. Blakslee. The work would be more efficiently supervised. We have divided the country into four zones for rural delivery oper- ations. They are similar to the four contract zones of the Star Route Service. Those two services are becoming more and more intermingled and affiliated all the time, and in that way we get the advantage of the flexibility of either service in performing the de- sired functions. Eventually it will work up to the idea you have suggested, so that there will be individuals supervising the opera- tions in the four different zones. "When that occurs we will have closer supervision of this great service which has been in existence only about 20 years. Twenty years ago it was nothing, but to-day it is the most important factor in mail collection and delivery. It is in its infancy to-day, but as time progresses you will discover that rural-delivery functions or activities will have a far more important influence upon city life than any other factor in the Postal Service. Mr. Ramseyer. Some gentleman suggested here to-day that the department ought to get closer to the people or to the rural-delivery patrons. It has been my observation that rural-delivery patrons come to regard their rural route with a degree of affection almost like that with which they regard a child. It is a part of them and it is a part of their homes. They do not want any trespassing upon it. If there could be closer cooperation and a better understanding between the Post Office Department and the I'ural-delivery patrons, 68 EUKAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. you would get along better. I am not saying that you are not get- ting along fairly well now, but you would get along with less friction. Mr. Blakslee. I think we are getting along about as well as we can under the circumstances. We are like a patient in a hospital, and we will soon come through to complete recovery. Mr. Sanders. Of course, as a general proposition, changes are usually objectionable to the patrons. Don't you think that m inak- ing changes you should approach them with a great deal of caution? Mr. Blakslee. There is no doubt about that. It is a matter of ad- ministratiAe judgment to give consideration in every direct or in- direct way that is possible to the matter of changes. We find that nine times out of ten it is just as Mr. Ramseyer stated, that the patron feels a proprietary right in his rural route, just as he would in a piece of real estate, 'it is his, and he does not want any change made in it, no matter how meritorious it may be. Mr. Sanders. Even if the change made is meritorious, there is apt to be objection to it, because it is a change? IMr. Blakslee. Yes, sir. The improved highway, the introduction of the motor vehicle, and more certain delivery of mail in rural territory are things that are not familiar to all of the rural patrons, and their interest in the character of service they get is based upon that Avhich tliey know about. They say, " We have a good satisfac- tory service." They know of no better service, and, consequently, they say it is good and satisfactory. We are trying to educate our rural patrons to the fact that in this service, as in any other service, there should be now and then modifications. I admit that there might be a more congenial way of treating this thing, and I think Ave can accomplish it, and we Avill proceed to accom- plish it as we have proceeded heretofore, since the time we first started in Iowa and in Georgia. Mr. Sanders. As I understand it, the base pay of a rural carrier is about 20 cents a mile ; is that a fact ^ Mr. Blakslee. About 20 cents a mile. Mr. Sanders. Of course, Avhere you add mileage on the basis of $24 for each additional mile that amounts to about 7 cents per mile ? Mr. Blakslee. It does ; somewhere in that neighborhood. Mr. Sanders. I assume that your extension of these routes is some- what controlled by the fact that it shows a little saving '. Mr. Blakslee. Oh, no. Let me assure you that economy of the character generally referred to is where you can do a certain opera- tion for less money and deposit the money, we might say, in escrow hi the Treasury or some other account, and at the end of the year show that Congress appropriated $68,800,000 but we only spent $65,000,000, and therefore we could circulate throughout the country that we saved $3,800,000. But we do not do that. These readjustments are primarily based upon the intention to secure additional patrons. That is the first and fundamental idea. The fact that we get a little money through 16 less routes does not do us any good in making a showing except in this way : That we can show that that reduction in cost of $-20,000 has provided service for 10,000 or 15,000 additional patrons some- where else who did not have it before; and farmers everywhere want service, and we want to give it to them. We find that in this way we get by without having the farmers coming back and saying, EUBAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 69 You are putting a load of taxes on us and we do not see where we are getting results." So I want you to realize that there is no desire on the part of the department to extend routes for any purpose of economy. There is not the slightest intention on our part to do any- thing of the kind and never was. We spend all we are given in the Rural Delivery Service. I do not think there is ever a balance of more than $200 or $300 at the end of the year, except, I think, the year 1914, when the department was running $20,000,000 in the hole. About the 1st of December we were frightened as to what was going to happen, and then we hesitated a little on additional extensions and the establishment of routes. Mr. Saxdees. As a matter of fact, the routes you established in Onondaga County are extended in mileage beyond 26 miles, and therefore it does give you the economy of the lesser compensation to the carriers ? Mr. Blakslee. The original length average is 23.25 miles, and the length to-day is 24.38, which makes about 1 mile's difference in the average length of the route. Mr. Sanders. While you reduce the number of routes about 10 per cent? Mr. Blakslee. Yes ; 16 routes. Mr. Sanders. Sixteen out of 80 would be more than 10 per cent, would it not ? Mr. Blakslee. There were 10 routes cut out and not 16. Since you made your inquiry as to Onondaga County 6 of those routes have been restored, so that there are 10 instead of 16. Mr. Sanders. That, then, would be a 10 per cent or 8 per cent reduction ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes. Mr. Sanders. Of course, that mileage would be about a mile and three-quarters, would it not ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes ; somewhere in that neighborhood. Mr. McSpaeean. Mr. Blakslee, you do not mean to say that in those readjustments you only changed the length of the routes that you readjusted a mile and three-quarters, but that you only raised the whole system a mile and three-quarters ? Mr. Blakslee. That is true. Mr. McSparran. That is the point, because that is a small pro- portion of the total number of routes. There were some routes that were changed to the extent of 5 and 8 miles and there were hundreds of routes that were not touched, so that it brought the general level up to a mile and three-quarters ? Mr. BlaksIxEE. There was a very general impression up there to the effect that the routes had been extended to 35 and 36 miles when, in fact, there was not a single route over 31 miles except one, where a road was closed and the carrier was traveling 34 miles in order to get around the closed road. The greatest length of any route is 29 miles and a fraction. So that the impression which was abroad, that they had increased the route to 34, 35, and 36 miles, was an error. Mr. McSpaeean. But it is a fact that some of the routes were changed by 5 and 8 miles ? Mr. Blakslee. Yes: there i^' another thins' about it, Mr. McSpar- ran, and you raised the question, namely, about the dispatch of the mails. That is most carefully taken care of by the department. In 70 EUEAL FREE DELIVEEY SERVICE. all of this extension or investigation of the service, for the purpose of a revision, we are ^'ei'v careful to preserve tlie dispatch of the mail by available trains and so schedule our routes that they will cover the route at an average of between 3 and 4 miles an hour; that they will cover the route lietween the arrival of the moi-ning trains and the dispatch of the afternoon trains. In some instances, however, due to the enormous number of trains taken off the railroads in New York State, it was impossible to make a dispatch on the same day. Fur- thermore, there was a great number of trains taken off in the morn- ing, because, as we understood, they did not pay, and the morning delivery of mail to the carriers was affected by that train service. AVe could not wait until 1 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon for the arrival of trains and then make a dispatch to the cities in the afternoon. i\Ir. Gould. I do not suppose you nuide any protest to the Railroad Administration in regard to taking off those trains^ ]Mr. Blakslee. ^ye have fi-equentlj^ done that on account of the delivery of mail on rural routes. Mr. IBAENuii. Have j^ou made any complaints during peace times? Mr. Blakslee. As to rural routes, not many since the armistice, but as to our star routes we have made a number of declarations of that kind, and the star routes m many instances feed the rural routes, and that was the cause of our raising the protest. Mr. Eamseyer. Do I understand that you went over the routes in iSew Yoi-k — and against which comj^laints have been made — with a view to readjusting them? Mr. Blakslee. Our orders to the inspectors were that they were to do anything that woidd make this service satisfactorj' — restore the old service, readjust the i-evised service, introduce new service, and do whatever was necessary to make for adequate service. That is what these inspectors were directed to do. Mr. Eajisetee. They were the instructions you gave them after this delegation called upon you and the Postmaster General, but what instructions did they have before that time? Mr. Blakslee. There were none and there were no inspectors there before that time. Mr. Ramseter. Do I understand that the changes in the State of Xew York, which went into effect j\Iay 1, were made from your office without receiving reports from inspectors? Mr. Blakslre. Xo; they were made upon reports of postmasters, and in some instances a few of our representatives from the depart- nient Avent into Xew York State. But the postmasters, prior to the revision, represented the condition of affairs that could be readjusted and made more efficient than what they were in our opinion. Mr. Ramsetek. Did you send instructions to those postmasters as to what principles should guide them in their recommendations? Mr. Blakslee. X"©; we did not ask them for a discussion of the subject, except in so far as Ave Avanted information as to road condi- tions, the patrons that possibly might be served, etc. Mr. Ramseter. They sent you information but did not recommend how many routes should be cut out? Mr. BlaksijEE. No. Mr. Ramseter. So you assume the responsibility for cutting out the routes and making the changes? Mr. Blakslee. Oh, yes. RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 71 Mr. McSparran. "Would not the information you got from the postmasters naturally lead you to lengthen the routes, because the average postmaster, with the average selfishness of the average human being, would want the route lengthened so that his cancella- tions would be larger, would he not ? Mr. Blaklslee. Well, it is difficult to impute any other motives Mr. McSpareax (interposing). Well, I spoke of the average. Mr. Blaksijee (continuing). To postmasters, farmers, or rural patrons, than motives of purity. jNIr. ilcSpARRAx. If the department, in its desire to better the service, gets its information from a person interested in the financial increase, it does not seem to me to be a very good policy. Mv. Blakslee. Well, the postmaster who has had no financial in- crease or who has had routes taken away from his office certainly would not make any more recommendations on the subject. Mr. Lowell. Do you think the postmasters were perfectly free in giving you information about complaints ? Mr. Blakslee. Oh, yes ; I do. Mr. Lowell. Without any fear ? Mr. Blakslee. They would not be fearful of me. Mr. Lowell. I will not quote his name, but one postmaster said, " Do they think I am a damn fool ? I am not going to say anything and get my head cut off." Mr. Blakslee. He is laboring under a misapprehension; they do not cut their heads off. My office does not have charge of that any more, although it did have once upon a time. If the gentlemen of the committee would like to make some inquiries of the inspectors, they are here. Mr. Satterfield is here and he has been in the territory around Auburn. Mr. Gould. Sennett was one bad point and Phelps another. STATEMENT OF MR. W. J. SATTERFIELD. Mr. Satteepield. Mr. Gould, the condition at Sennett was some- thing like this : Sennett, as you know, is a small fourth-class office ; it is about 5 miles distant from Auburn, and the route from Sennett comes to within practically a mile of the city limits of Auburn. In the first readjustment the Sennett route was taken out entirely ; most of it was absorbed from Auburn and a small portion from Weeds- port. We found that the Weedsport routes were too long, as well as some other routes, and in the final readjustment that I made I took all but three patrons off of — that is, former Sennett patrons — Weedsport and put them on to Auburn. One of those three — and I have his name here and could give it to you if you want it — told me that he would be satisfied ; it was all right. Now, the route is at present arranged from Auburn so that the carrier goes directly from Auburn to Sennett. There are some four or five families who live on the route between Auburn and Sennett who must have their mail addressed to Auburn in order to get the morning delivery, but all of the other patrons, if they choose, may have their mail still ad- dressed to Sennett and the carrier will pick it up. Mr. Gould. Have they been notified to that effect ? Mr. Satterfield. If they have not, it is the postmaster's fault. It is my judgment that Auburn is the proper place from which to 72 EUEAL FKEE DELIVERY SERVICE. serve that territory. It does not make any difference to me from which point, but I believe for their benefit it is the proper place. Mr. GoTJLD. I have nothing more except I think it would be of interest to a great many Members of the House if the committee would feel warranted in having this hearing printed. I do not know what the procedure of your committee will be, but I know that a good many people throughout New York State, and in other parts of the country, would like to know about the details of the propo- sition. I just offer that as a suggestion, because I am not a mem- ber of the committee, of course. Mr. Sanders. We will take that up in executive session. (Thereupon the subcommittee adjourned.) SuBcoM^rrn'EE or ti-ik Cosfmittee ox Post Offices and Post Roads, H()USF, OF Representatives, ^YrdlU's or 40 routes. Our county is rather a suuill county ; it is an agricultural county and the city I come from is prac- tically the only industrial city, having a population of 35,000 or 40,000. However. I think there are 35 or 40 rural routes in the county, and I believe in the revision there were six of those elimi- nated. As far as I personally can say I think the only difficulty and the only real trouble has been that a couple of post offices in the county lost their routes and, of course, that appealed to' local feeling. The people might say, " You have lost your route, lost your prestige, to a certain degree, and somebody else got the route," and they were right up in arms. But so far as I know that was the main trouble in our district. Mr. Sanders. Was thei'e a further revision on July 3 ? ^Ir. Qtjac'kexbusii. There were those slight revisions I spoke of. T believe there have been no routes restored in that county. The changes, I imagine, were much smaller than they were in the larger counties. There were some slight changes and some little modifica- tions in onr own routes that we thought would improve the service, and the inspector concurred. Mr. Raiiseyer. You say there were six routes eliminated by the order of May 1? Mr. Qtjackenbush. I would not be positive as to that number. There were, of course, none from my office eliminated, and I could not say offhand as to the balance of the county. ^Ir. Sanders. By the order of July 3 were any of these routes re- stored ? Mr. QuACKENBusH. No ; I think not. I believe they stand just the same. Mr. Sanders. Were they revised? Mr. QuACKENBtrsH. I think some of them were slightly revised. I beg your pardon, my revision was made June 16. The changes in my three routes there went into effect the 16th of June. Mr. Eamsexer. You are in the county seat, in your city ? Mr. QuACKENBrsH. Xo ; I am not in the county seat, but account- ing postmaster in the county. That does not necessarily mean the county seat. IMr. Ramseter. Was a meeting of protest held in your county? Mr. Quackenbush. Yes ; it was held at the chamber of commerce room in the city. Mr. Ramseyer. Who called that meeting? Mr. QuACKENBUSH. It was put in the newspapers as much through my instrumentality as anyone else's. Mr. Chester, the inspector, came there, and we endeavored to give it all possible publicity. As I say, I made a personal effort to reach anyone who had filed any complaint of any kind. ^ ^ . , . Mr. Sanders. Does the Post-Standard circulate in your county? ]Mr. Qtjackenbush. Yes, sir ; quite widely. Mr. Sanders. Did the granges and farmers' bureau, any of them, pass resolutions of protest? 94 EUEAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. QuACKENBusH. The grange, as far as I know, was not present, but some manager of the farm bureau was present, but he did not take any active part in the meeting. Mr. Ramseyer. Did these organizations protest, to j^our Imowl- edge, against that change? Mr. QuACKExnusii. To my knowledge I do not think the grange did. It is possible it did, but not at that meeting. Mr. Rajiseter. Have you ever read the resolutions voted l)y the executives and legislators of the Xational Grange in joint session, Washington headquarters, May 27 ? Mr. QuACKENBusH. I do not think I have. I should say that the farm bureau did, I think, have a meeting after our meeting was over and did adopt some sort of resolution, but at that meeting I was not personally present ; just the one held in some room of the chamber of commerce. Mr. Ramseyer. So the changes made since May 1 are practically negligible ? Mr. QrACKEXBusii. I should say very largely so: although in my Ijosition I could not speak for other offices in tlie county. But these changes appealed to me as very good and should be made. Mr. Ramseyer. Have you any change^ in your office before the department now, api)lications for changes? Mr. Qx^ACKENBTTSH. Xothiug at the present time, except I have this route, which is rather long and which -we fear we can not handle next winter, when I shall want to take it up with the department and see if we can not have it shortened. ]\Ir. Raisiseyer. How long is the road? Mr. QuACKENBusn. Between 28 and '29 miles. There is a little hilly country at one end of it, and in the spring a man is not able to handle it very well, and in the winter it is that way. Mr. Kendall. In your judgment, was the revision an advantage or disadvantage to the patrons of the route? Mr. QuACKENP.rsH. As far as I could see, it was advantageous in a large measure, taking the whole balance. We are serving some people who were formerly served liy small fourth-class offices. Of course, it is our hope to give them l)etter service in a larger office. It is our ideal to do that. We hope to give them better service at anv rate. STATEMENT OF ME. J. N, DWYER, POSTMASTER, GENESEO, N. Y. Mr. DwYER. At the time we rearranged our routes in Livingston County thei'e was a meeting at Geneseo, which is the countv seat, and the meeting was very thoroughly advertised. At the time I got the notice of the meeting I took it up with tlie farm bureau, and thev made a great effort to get as many there as thev possiblv could^- those that were in favor of these changes and those that were not in favor of the changes. The farm bureau there had been very fair, and, as far as I was able to learn, I think the grange was. At Geneseo we made some very big changes. We had three routes, and one of the routes we changed from IT miles to 28 miles. There was not one complaint from any patron from Geneseo about the changes. We took in the town of Groveland, of about 12 miles, and there were many patrons of Groveland there that date who were in favor of the RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 95 :hange, one gentleman especially; I think he has the same name as tfr. Magee, who just spoke here. He possibly is the largest patron )f the town of Groveland with the exception of one, and he was very nuch pleased with the present routes. He said that his service had lever been any better. His mail was never delivered any more Dromptly, and his outgoing mail, he knew, i-eached the patrons better ;han ever before. From the town of Caledonia there was a member of the grange iresent by the name of Jensen, who seemed to be very much pleased .vith the change, and it was right through the county that way. There were probably 60 or 70 at the meeting, and it was pretty evenly livided up. The papers in our county have been very fair, both the Democrat and the Republican papers, and, as far as I am able to earn, and I am pretty well acquainted in the county, acquainted ivith the different routes, although I am not the accounting officer of :he county, but the largest part of them were pretty well satisfied svith the exception of one town, and that was due to the fact that ihey were not getting their morning papers on time. I think possibly :hat might have been adjusted since that time. Mr. Sanders. How many routes were in your county previous to the changes of May 1 ? Mr. DwTER. In my town? Mr. Sanders. In the county. Mr. DwYER. In the county, I think, Mr. Chairman, there must have been 25. I may be a little high on that. Mr. Sanders. How many were discontinued? Mr. DwYER. One, two, three — four routes. Mr. Sanders. Was there any further revision sinpe that time by the restoration of routes? Has there been any restoration of routes since the 1st of May ? Mr. DwTER. No. Mr. Sanders. No general revision? Mr. DwYER. The inspector says there has been one put back on the 30th of July. I do not think that the grange in my town — I have the town of Geneseo — and it is the strongest grange in the county ; they may have handed in a protest, but, as far as I am able to say, you could come to Geneseo and go to every farmer, and it is safe to say that 99 per cent of them would leave the change the way_ it is. Mr. Sanders. Were there any extensions out of Livonia; any ex- tensive changes out of Livonia? Mr. DwTER. Yes ; there were, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sanders. Was that satisfactory, generally ? Mr. DwYER. There were, I think, two gentlemen at the meeting that day who had protested, and there were four or five that were in favor of it. ■-,,■,■,■,.■, Mr. Sanders. Were the newspapers circulatmg throughout that town satisfied with the change? Mr. DwYER. They seemed to be, the newspapers of both sides. Republican papers and Democratic papers, with the exception of the Rochester papers, and the Rochester papers, I know that they printed nothing of the meeting at Geneseo only the anti side of it. Mr. Sanders. That is all. 96 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. STATEMENT OF MR. J. W. McKNIGHT, POSTMASTER, CASTLETON,. RENSSELAER COUNTY, N. Y. Mr. McKnight. Mr. Chairman, Ave have two routes from our office. ]Mr. Saxdees. What is the name of your town ? Mr. McKnight. The town of Schodaelt is in the county of Eens- selaer. When the change was made they abolished two routes out of East Greenbush and added part of one route, I think Xo. 1 to our route Xo. 1, and the other to our route No. -2. We liave not received any comphiints, not one. We are serving our patrons two liours earlier than they were ever served before. I believe that they abolished five routes in Eensselaer County alid revised one. I think they established a route out of the city of Eensselaer. We have not received any complaints anywhere from the southern part of Eens- selaer County. I attended the meeting at the post office in Troy. I could not stay until the meeting was" finished, but during my time there I did not hear a complaint from anyone from the southern part of the county, and the most of the people there were from Washing- ton County, as I understood it. ^Ir. Black. Is Troy the county seat town of your county ? ]Mr. SIcKnight. Yes, sir. iSIr. Black. Close to Washington County? INIr. McKnight. Yes. Mr. Black. You had a central meetng for both counties? !Mr. McKnight. Yes, sir. Mr. Black. What are the lengths of the two routes out of your office? Air. McKnight. Twenty-eight miles and a fraction. The carriers will leave at the present time at 8 o'clock and arrive at the office before 11. Mr. Black. By motor vehicle now, I supijose? Jlr. McKnight. Yes. The service is just the same. Air. Kendall. Serving all the people all the time ? Air. JIcKnight. Yes. Air. Kendall. Giving 100 per cent service. Air. AIcKnighI. The very best; have not had one complaint. Air. Sande]s.s. 'Has anybody any further questions? Air. AIcKnight. I thank you very much. STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS J, GALLAGHER, POSTMASTER, GENEVA, ONTARIO COUNTY, N. Y. Air. Gallagher. Gentlemen, I am going to speak about the east- ern end of the county. I understand that there is where the principal Idck was about the change of the routes, especially at Phelps, X. Y., a part of the two routes eliminated there, and a part of those two routes were put on three routes in my office. They wei'e extended up to about 28 or 29 miles, my routes were. They made a ]irotest against it, and the de]3artment gave them a hearing at Canandaigua, N. Y. I went up to that meeting, and I was not known to the protestants. as they came from the rural districts, so I had met but very few of them. I listened to their statements as to why they had objected to those changes, and I did not find a logical argument put up by any man. They all wished to have routes restored. The inspector. RURAL FREE DELIVKRY SERVICE. 97 after hearing things, I guess, recommended that one route, a new route, be made, and it was made, and part of it was taken off these three routes of mine at my office. I understand now that the people that are on the new route would prefer to receive their mail from Geneva, because the reason why they made their objections to the changes was that the carriers are not going to be restored. There is- going to be an examination held. The principal objection, as far as I can learn, amongst those wha were there, was in the interests of the carrier, not against the service. I have been talking with a business man at Phelps, and he told me the reason they objected to the elimination of the routes was because they thought business would be diverted to Geneva and taken away from them. I do not consider that a good logical argument as to why a route should not be changed if it can be bettered. I am going to show you the reason why it is bettered in placing it in Geneva. Those people in getting their mail in Geneva — we receive mail on 21 trains ; we dispatch on 19 trains — Phelps receives and dispatches mail on 6 trains a daj'. But our carrier goes out in the morning. We receive mails from north and west and south. When the Phelps carrier goes out in the morning they receive mail only from the east. And so we are delivering mail to-day from the Geneva, X. Y., office that the Phelps office can not deliver until to-morrow. I explained that to a good many of those people up there at Phelps who are around there and are affected by this change. They could not see through it. Last Saturday I was up in Phelps, and I talked with a very prominent business man, and he told me that they were very much disappointed to find that that carrier was not going to be re- stored; that he has got to try an examination now for reappointment. That seems to be the principal objection. In Phelps, X. Y., the people are pretty well intermarried and pretty near all related, and I guess the can-ier has a good many relatives on the route. While I do not wish to accuse him of having circulated a petition, he wasn't doing it, but I believe he stirred the people up to make this trouble, as far as I can learn. I am in a position to laiow, and I do not wish to' quote any names of my informants. Those are conditions that exist in that end where the principal objections come from Ontario County. Mr. Sanders. How many routes were there in your county before the changes were made ; previous to the changes made on the 1st of May? Mr. Gallagher. I can not tell you. I do not know how many there were in my county. I think there were two cut out of Phelps,- another cut out at Canandaigua, and one, I think, at Stanley. No; there were six cut out, in all. Mr. Sanders. Phelps is quite a good sized town ; is it not ? Mr. Gallagher. It is a town of about 2,000 inhabitants, a third- P|qqq 0II1C6. Mr. Sanders. How many routes did they have previous to the changes? Mr. Gallagher. They had four. Mr. Sanders. And now they have two. Mr. Gallagher. They will have three under the new arrangement.- Mr. Sanders. The arrangement of July? 128079—19 7 98 RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mi\ Gallagher. Yes. I wish to state further that at the time these changes were made the 1st of May, I believe that was the worst rain- storm we have had in years, and, of course, the carriers were a little bit slow in getting around. There is no carrier in my office that can not do 29 miles. Of course, there may be some day when there is a big storm, in the winter time, j'ou can not get through 1 mile, you may strike a drift. But they are coming back now, back into the office, -within 15 or 20 minutes* at the time they formerly used to come back when they had 22 or 23 miles. Mr. Eajiseyee. They have all got machines? Mr. Gallagher. Yes; the men all have automobiles; only in the winter time they have to revert to horses during the storm. Mr. Eajiseyer. How many of your carriers have resigned? Mr. Gallagher. Not any. Mr. Ramseter. How long have you been postmaster? Mr. Gallagher. A little over three years. Mr. Ramseyer. There have been no resignations during that time? Mr. Gallagher. Yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyer. How many? Mr. Gallagher. One. Mr. Ramseyer. How many carriers did you say you have? Mr. Gallagher. Five. "When you asked how many resigned. I thought you meant how many resigned on account of this change. Mr. Ramseyer. No. Mr. Gallagher. One man resigned aboxit two years ago — a year and a half ago. Mr. Sanders. Are there any further questions? Mr. Blakslee. That completes the number of postmasters to ap- pear here to-day. I know they all appreciate the opportunity to have been heard before your committee. I know they wanted to have a little something to say, and you wanted them to have the opportunity. Mr. Ramseyer. Mr. Brigham has been mentioned several times as an authority. He has a short statement to make. I would like to hear him as to how he gets at this. STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM C. BRIGHAM, POST-OFFICE INSPECTOR. Mr. BRiGHA:\r. I will dwell on the meetings held in Oswego County in this talk Avith you and give you an idea of just how we went about it. On the 27th day of May, a meeting that had been widely adver- tised through the local papers was called at Oswego. As Mr. Nacey, a postmaster, stated, there wei'e quite a number of people there, some- where near 150, T believe it was. They were all thoroughly inter- ested. They had a big room in the assembly chambers in the city hall. Everybody participated in it and everybody there was given an opportunity to voice or express his opinion of the service. They came, sometimes, four or five in a group from a little community, sometimes one at a time, if it was a matter that, affected him per- sonally. In taking them up in groups that way and working right straight through, without stopping for meals or anything else, every man or woman present at that meeting was given an opportunity. I notice yesterday that something was said about not giving a Dublic EUEAL FEEE DELIVERY SERVICE, 99 hearing. I do not know what could be more public than a hearing of that sort. You know as well as I that if you invite a farmer to get up, the average farmer before a body of men will hesitate and refuse to talk, he will balk; but get him in a corner by yourself and he will talk and bluster for an hour, and that was my idea. I registered all those complaints. Mr. Eamseyek. What do you mean by register ? Mr. Beigham. I recorded them ; I beg your pardon. I recorded all these complaints, tabulated them, and worked out each one of them, so I can safely say that 90 per cent of them were complied with and corrected. Now, in working out this revision, I want to say that after talking to those people, noting on the maps the road conditions, whether they were worked regularly by the local road overseers, whether they were roads that were continually neglected, principally along township lines where the road officials from one township had become involved in a wrangle with another, and not doing this, that and the other thing, I managed to get a good idea of the condition of the roads from that viewpoint. I also took into consideration the mountainous section of the roads, rough hills, and mountains, climb- ing steep grades. I was fortunate enough to have a i-epresentative of the "Weather Bureavi present at a meeting held on May 28 at Pulaski, who gave me a statement there as to the precipitation or rain fall within a certain period throughout the central and eastern portions of Oswego County, all of which I took into consideration. I also had my attention called to the fact that there was a condition along the shores of Lake Ontario that I would not encounter farther inland by reason of the high winds in snowstorms ; if there was a big storm, the snow is blown off the roads along the lake front so they are abso- lutely bare, and farther back in the country there would be anywhere from 6 to 10 feet of snow, in depth, in some of the drifts. In lining out the routes which I aimed at was to confine the routes to the nar- row sections bordering on the lakes where a man starting out with a wagon could finish with a wagon, and not ha\'e the route half of the route traveled with the use of a wagon, and the other half with 10 feet of snow. So I took that into consideration. I also found a condition there where it would be a great advantage to transfer several routes. One was the case at New Haven, where I transferred a route from a little point called Demster to a point there a mile south, at New Haven, for the reason that at Demster there was the most miserable supervision of Government work as a whole, not alone the rural route from that point, but the whole ad- ministration of the office and records and everything else, which were poorly kept and an effort had been made to dispose of the office time and time again. It was conducted, too, by an old lady over 80 years old, and I found it was the sentiment of the leading people throughout the section there to clear the matter up, so in transferring the route to New Haven I not only did that, but recom- mended the discontinuance of the office, and as I have said, that is perfectly satisfactory. Ao'ain at another point, Colosse, there was an instance where the post'^office was a mile and a half west of the railroad. They had no facilities for taking care of the parcels post. Whenever anyone brought packages in — ^to mail parcels — ^the postmaster had to hitch 100 KUEAL, FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. up and drive to a neighboring town, whicli was on the railroad in order to take care of it, so I transferred that route from Colosse to Parish, but so arranged it that the mail could go direct from Oswego to Colosse office, picking up mail for Colosse, and continue to serve them whether it was one or the other. Colosse or Parish, whatever address there would be no harm done, if one was left out, and Colosse got far better service all around. At Granljy — a little town. South Granby, south of Fulton — there was one business concern only, and that was the Great Bear Spring Mineral Co., and they were the only ones that really instigated the bunch of complaints, and one of their men — E. E. Fisher — came to me and urgecl that the route transferred to Fulton in the change that was made on May 1st be restored. Now, Fulton is a big, second- class office, and I could not see for the life of me where there was any benefit to restore the route at South Granby, for the I'eason that the mails do not arrive until 2.50 o'clock in the morning, and the dispatch is made about 4 to 4.30, so it leaves the carrier with a very limited time to cover that route. It is of ordinary length; other- Avise the route had been very, veiy short. From Fulton the}=' serve a 2(>mile route, or thereabouts, and in order to demonstrate that they get a better service, I personally mailed a communication at 5 o'clock on the morning of June 3, at Sycamore, addressed to E. E. Fisher, Fulton, N. Y., and down on the left-hand corner of the envelope, South Granby. That letter was delivered to ]\Ir. Fisher at 10.15 the same morning — over half an hour earlier than the mail arrives in the post office. I have not heard another peep from that com- munity and I have understood there were no protests from that source. Take the junction point at Richland. Two routes were taken out in the previous revision. It was partly taken from a point known as Lacona. north of Richland, and a part of it was taken from Altmar, south of Richland. That end of the country there directly east is very rugged, rough, and mountainous. By reason of the nature of the country the winds drive the storms in such a way that people there in the east travel directly west into Richland, and they had the best of mail facilities l)y reason of the fact that it is on the main line of two railroads. I studied for some little time over the situation and I found Ijy restoring the two routes at Richland I could not only shorten the length of the routes at Lacona, but also at Altmar and other offices in the vicinity, and by doing so I benefited the service to IT additional families on routes that had not been covered hereto- fore. At AA'illiamstown I made an extension there to a little place called Kasoag, about 2] miles northwest of Williamstown. So by putting the service to start from Altmar to a point farther west we extended the service to 15 additional families. The same thing resulted at Hannibal, a third-class office, where by making a few little extensions to the service, reducing the length of routes by means of rearrangements that took place on July 3,'^10 more families were added, so that as a whole, in figuring up the total number of families to which service had been extended bv reason of the restoration of routes — in one instance where specific complaint had been brought to my attention at a meeting — the little routes that we embodied in sections where they were two small to show on the RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 101 map. but families here and there throughout the county, it resulted in extension of service to li'2 additional families by means of the restoration of 7 of the 11 routes that were originally taken up, and discommoding 32 in the entire county. Are there aiiy questions? Mr. R.\3rsEYER. A^^iat is your official position? Mr. Brigham. Post-office inspector. Mr. Eajiseyer. Hom* long have you been such? Mr. Brigham. Fifteen years. Mr. Rajiseter. You are under the civil service? In a general way, what are your special duties now? Sir. Brighajf. On this particular work — all the work? Mr. EA:\rsEYER. Yes; in a general way. Mr. BRiGHAjr. It involves everything required of a post-office in- spector from checking jjost offices, looking after obscene cases, delay in the delivery of mails, complaints that come to the postmasters in the usual way and referred to the department for adjustment, looking after wrong payments of money orders, depredation work. Mr. Rajiseyer. You are not limited to rural-route service? Mr. Bbighasi. Xo. Mr. Ramseyer. How did you happen to be sent up to this Oswego County ? Mr. Brigham. I presume that was due to the fact that I entered the service about 18 years ago when rural work was in its infancy and I have grown up with it. Mr. Ramseyer. About how much of your time is taken up on rural- route cases? Mr. Brigham. You mean generally speaking, when I am doing the regular work? Mr. Ramseyer. In the regular work. Mr. Brigham. I should saj' that about two months in the year; in the district when I am doing m^- regular work, in Xew Jersey, I would be called upon to handle rural cases throughout the State. Mr. Ramseyer. In your district? jNIr. Brigham. Yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyer. What is it? Mr. Brigham. Burlington County and Mercer County, in the State of New Jersey. Our division at Philadelphia embodies the States of New Jersey and Pennsylvania, and I would be liable to be anywhere in Pennsylvania. iVTr. Ra:mseyer. This time you were sent to New York ? Mr. Brigham. Yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyer. How did that happen, that you were sent up there? Mr. Brigham. I have been in a dozen States. I guess I have worked in all the States this side of the Mississippi in 18 years. Mr. Ramseyer. Was there any special reason why you were sent up there, or just got orders? Mr. Brigha Ji. Just got orders ; that is all. I will say this : When I first took this line of work 18 years ago, my initial work was done in New York State. Mr. Ramseyer. From whom did you get orders to go up in Oswego County ? Mr. Brigham. The chief inspector. Mr. Ramseyer. Who is he? 102 EXJRAL FEEE DELIVERY SERVICE. Mr. Beigham. Mr. Sutton. Mr. Eajiseyer. Where is he located ? Mr. Beigham. Right here in Washington. Mr. Rajiseyer. You are under the direction of Mr. Sutton ? Mr. Beigham. Yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyee. You are under the direction of Mr. Blakslee ? jNIr. Beigham. We were called in by JMr. Sutton, and then the work was alloted to us by Mr. Blakslee. Mr. Ramseyek. Mr. Sutton is also a civil-service employee? Air. Beigham. I presume he is under the civil service ; yes, sir. Mr. Ramseyee. What instructions did you get as you were sent up to Oswego County? Who gave them to vou, Mr. Sutton or Mr. Blakslee? Mr. Beigham. Mr. Blakslee an Mr. Wood. Mr. Ra^iseyee. What v^ere your instructions when you were sent up there at this meeting of jMay 28 ? Mr. Brkjham. They wanted us to go up there and hold this meet- ing ijublicly. Mr. Ramseyee. Who ? Mr. Beigham. There were several of us, six inspectors altogether. Mr. Raj[seyee. Attending all those meetings up there? Mr. Beigham. We divided up and went to different localities. Mr. RA:\rsEYEE. In the same county ? ]\Ir. Beigha:m. No, indeed. Mr. Ramseyee. You were given Oswego County ? Mr. BRiGHA:\t. Oswego County. Mr. Rajiseyee. Was there any other inspector? Mr. BEiGTiA:\r. Mr. Dow. the chief clerk to Air. Blakslee, was work- ing in Onondaga County at the same time. jNIi-. RAirsEYER, With you? Air. Beighaini. No. Mr. Ra:\[seyee. You were alone ? Air. Beigiia^m. Alone. Air. EA:\rsEYF.R. Wliat instructions did you receive? You were sent to Oswego County, and your testimony has only covered Oswego County ? Air. Beigham. Yes, sir. Air. RA:\rsEYER. What instructions did you receive from Air. Blaks- lee or Mr. Sutton, either of them, as to what vou should do in Oswego County? Air. BEiGHAjr. Correct anything we found that was not satisfac- tory and give them ade(|uate and improved mail facilities. If there wei-e any mistakes by reason of the revision previously put in opera- tion, correct it. Air. Ramseyee. Were you told that by Air. Blakslee or Ati'. Sutton prior to your going to this particular Oswego County, or liy Air. Wood, or did he just tell you to go and follow out work as it was your custom to wni'k ? Air. Beigham. Tliey told us as we started out. Mr. RA:\rsEYER. On this particular journey? Air. Beigham. On this particular journey to these counties we were taking up simultaneously. Air. RAi\rsEYEE. You were sent to Oswego County. I am asking about your particular case. RURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 103 Mr. Brigham. Yes, sir. Mr. Eamseyer. Now, then, after you got there you held some meetings ? Mr. Bkighaji. Yes, sir. Mr. Eamseyer. I take it from your testimony you consulted with farmers ? Mr. Brigham. Yes, sir. Mr. Eamseyer. And you called in the road workers as to the con- dition of the roads ? Mr. Brigham. Yes, sir. Mr. Eamseyer. And you called in representatives of the Weather Bureau ? Mr. Brigham. No; they attended. Mr. Eamseyer. They attended. You took advantage of their at- tendance and consulted them in regard to the conditions of weather. Mr. Brigham. I certainly did. INIr. Ramseyter. And you also got the sentiment of the leading people up there ? Mr. Brigham. Yes, sir. ]Mr. Eamseyer. Your first meeting was held May 28? Mr. Brigham. May 27, I think it was. Mr. Eajisey'er. Then May 27. After working all this out you recommended certain readjustments, restoration of 7 of the 11 routes that had been discontinued, and the clepaitnient acted upon your recommendations ? Mr. Brighaji. Yes, sir. Mr. Eamseyer. Now, what I want to know, Mr. Brigham, is this : Why did not the department, or why would it not have been prac- ticable for the department to have sent you or some other inspector up there to hold meetings such as you have, to call in the farmers, the road workers, the representatives of the Weather Bureau, and consult leading people up there, prior to the making of the order of May 1st, instead of maldng the order of May 1st and afterwards sending you up there to get the evidence you gathered. Have you held my question in mind? I have stated several times here that I do not object to the changes, but the objections that I have had is to the way the dei^artment goes about it. Now, tell me, as a prac- tical man, why you did not hold these meetings and consult these various peoples and get the A-arious items of knowledge prior to the making of changes instead of subsequent to making the changes. Mr. BRiGHAai. I presume, Mr. Eamseyer, that they did not antici- pate any such upheaval as that. Mr. Eajiseyer. They have had upheavals in every State of the Union. It is anticipated that whenever the change is made that somebody is going to stir up an upheaval. Mr. Brigham. My reason for stating that is we have had some revisions prior to this, two or three years ago, in other States, where we did not have any such commotion as this by any means. This seems to be pretty well organized, planned, and premeditated, and it was fired from several angles and started a great boom all at once. I do not see just how the department could have anticipated that when this noise and all this disturbance started. They were only too glad to meet the people and correct any mistakes that had been 104 EUKAl, FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. made ; if there were any mistakes, they were made imiocently enough, I assure you. They were only too glad to correct them. In any big project this is liable to happen. Take the case of the tubes in New York, opened one day and closed the next ; it was a matter of a line lying in one direction and they had to lay it in another. It is simply a thing like that which is rectified or it closes the whole system up. In this instance we did not have to close the system of the mail service; we just ordered the inspectors in the field to learn what the trouble was, to get at the root of the evil and correct it as soon as possible. Mr. Eajiseyer. Wiat I am trying to find out is would it not be practicable for the department to make such preliminary investiga- tions before it orders any changes rather than to wait until com- plaints come in like these '( Mr. Brighaji. I presume it would be practicable to do that. JMr. EAjrsEYER. Don't you think it would be advisable in order to obviate difficulties in the future? Mr. Brighaji. I will tell you, ]\Ir. Ramseyer. it avouIcI seem to be a very good plan, but I am afraid that if j^ou put a pro^Dosition like that up to any community that you would start up a bigger restless- ness and a bigger noise than all this newspaper noise and protests that the Farm Journal and the farm bureau and the agricultural societies combined have started in this instance amongst the patrons themselves. You could never get 600 i^eople pati-onizing five routes from any one post office to agree on any plan of service. ]Mr. Eajiseyer. I did not ask you to go out to get them to agree, but you certainly would not start a greater noise than this in C)swego County. You went up there and advised with them at one of the meetings you attended what to do about it, and, according to your testimony, satisfied them. Why would not it have been easier to have met them before j\Iay 1 and satisfied them with the changes such as you have now, after they were restored? Mr. Brighaji. That would seem very nice if that could be accom- plished. I would be willing enough for some plan to be devised to avoid all this trouble. Mr. Ea^fseyer. You get your inspectors together and try to figure it out. ^Ir. Kexoall. Had the changes made by the Post Office Depai-t- ment on IMay 11 stood — that is, had they been carried out — would there have been better service to the patrons in Oswego County than they are now getting through the revision that you made subse- quently ? Mv. BRiGHA:\r. That went into effect July 3? Mr. Kexdalij. July ?>. ]\Ir. Brighaji. I (io not think so. It stands to reason that when liy means of this re^-ision, completed and put in operation July 3, 14:^ additional families are served and no greater number of people discommoded than previously, there is just that much more benefit; and the routes have all been reduced in length so that now the aver- age length is but 25.35 miles. JNlr. Kendall. Then the last changes put in I)}- you have, in your judgment, improved the ser\-ice in Oswego Count}'"? Mr. BRKiiiAJf. Most assuredly. I will stand liy' that. Not only by •shortening the routes, but I aim to do this and confine the longer KUKAL FREE DELIVEEY SERVICE. 105 routes to the larger offices, such as Fulton and Pulaski, where the carrier would travel a mile to a mile and a half over brick pave- ments before beginning to start on his territory, and again over a mile and a half of brick pavements in coming in; shorter routes, as far as possible, to give to the small communities, where they go out on dirt roads, a route that will run along -iS, 26, 25, 22, 21, 24, 26 miles, up along the line. There are a couple of 27-mile routes, but they are up in Oswego, and a couple in Fulton, and I think one there in Hannibal. Mr. Saxdf.ks. Ml". Brigham, what is your judgment in regard to the length of route which is most practicable for rural carriers, as a general rule, throughout the State of New York, as to the length for all the year, through winter and summer? Mr. JBeighaji. The average length? Mr. Sanders. Yes; for the average roads throughout the State, Avinter and summer. Mr. Beighaae. As an average length, I would say 25 miles would be about right, all the year around, although in the Avinter months and in the spring you have got different conditions. But there are communities in New York where they can tiavel a good bit farther than that the year around, according to the roads being good and the country densely populated, as compared with outlying districts, that you would not stand a chance of getting in a snow bank and getting out of it. Mr. Sanders. But as a general proposition? Mr. Beighaai. If you. take the roads right straight through, every one of them in the offices in New York, and strike an average, it would, I should say, be an average of about 25 miles. Mr. Blakslee. Mr. Chairman, there is an item of information that might be an interesting thing to the- committee. There has been some discussion about the restoration of the routes. By restoring routes such as these which have been enumerated, seven in one county, one in another, and five in another, that does not mean the same identical route in every instance Avas restored. It was simply the replacement of the route through territory that there had been a mis- take made in — not the restoration of the exact, same route that was in before. In some instances it Avas, but in other instances — a great many — it was not. Mr. Dow, my chief clerk, Avent up into the terri- tory Mr. Eamseyer has been asking about prior to the revision and intervicAved postmasters and patrons for the f)urpose of ascertaining information of the character Mr. Eamseyer has been trying to ascer- tain. Mr. DoAV could say something about his experience in making these rireliminary investigations Avhich Ave hare made. Before there was any revision at all he made inquiries there in the county on climatic conditions, and so on, upon Avhich Ave based the major portion of our information. Mr. Eamseyer. Prior to May 1 ? Mr. Blakslee. Oh, yes; before the matter Avas brought up Mr. DoAv Avas there in several sections of this county. He has been up in NeAV York State quite frequently. Mr. Eamseyer. We Avill hear from him and take has statement there, as short as possible. Mr. Sanders. Yes. 106 EURAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICii. STATEMENT OF MR. L. M. DOW, CHIEF CLERK TO THE FOURTH ASSISTANT POSTMASTER GENERAL. Mr. Dow. It was the cvistom of the department in workiiig out a basis on inquiries sent out to the postmasters to submit the propo- sition to tlie postmasters of tlie county, and on a number of these cases I was detailed. In Oswego County, I went up there and had a conference of the postmasters of the eastern half of the county at Oskego, and on the following day the postmasters of the western half of the county met at Pulaski. Now, the pui'poses of the changes were explained to the postmasters and the plan was shown to them on the map and it was gone through with them, and they were requested to point out any features which in their opinion were impracticable. In some instances, they thought some of the routes were too long. Other postmasters objected on account of losing a route from their offices. After having our conference, a detailed report of which was made, the plan was brought back to the depart- ment, and in nearly every instance it was more or less modified to meet the objections or the suggestions made by the postmasters^ and after that the changes were subsequently ordered. It has been the policy of the dei^artment in all these cases where changes were to be made, where there Avas any considerable complaint, to send a man out to the territory and make an investigation in these cases. Such an investigation was started in Eensselaer County before a gen- eral complaint had been made to the department. I went to Rens- selaer County and we were holding our meeting thei'e when I re- ceived notice to come to Washington, as there was a delegation from Syracuse and they wanted me to be there at the time that dele- gation was there. So we had already started the review of these cases before this general complaint came out. Our first meeting was at Eensselaer County, and at that meeting we went first and saw Mr. jNIarvin, editor of the Troy Eecord. We understood that he had a great number of complaints filed with him and I called upon ^Ir. jMarvin and explained that we wanted to meet all the people of the county and we understood that he had a great many complaints and we would be very glad if he would turn them over to us. He suggested that we defer our meeting at least three days, during which time he would give it wide publicity throughout Eensselaer and 'Washington Counties. At the Eensse- laer meeting, which was held at Troy, primarily for Eensselaer County, a number of Washington County people came. We had about 130. ]\Ir. Brigham was also in attendance at that meeting, and after stating the purpose of the meeting, that he Avished to give everyone there an opportunity to state their specific complaints, and he had concluded that the best method of doing so with so many persons was for one of us to take up one county and one to take up another, and to ask all those interested in these offices to meet. In Eensselaer County Aver ill Park was the first. IMr. Sanders. What date was that? Mr. Dow. ^lay 14. We had trouble there similar to this. Mr. Brigham had Rensselaer County and I had Washington County, and we asked all those who had any criticisms or suggestions to offer with reference to the service at Averill Park to please come forward KTJRAL FREE DELIVERY SERVICE. 107 to the map on Rensselaer County, and those who had criticisms as to service at Argyle, which was the first oiSce in "Washington County, to come forward with the Washington County map. We also asked these persons to note their specific complaints, and in that way there were a little over 125 had an apportunity to state just what their particular complaint was. That scheme seemed to cover the situation so thoroughly and gave such a clear understanding of what their complaints were that when we returned to Syracuse, and we held the meeting at Syracuse for Onondaga County, I followed the same practice there, and Mr. Giles, who criticized the method pursued at that time, sat right to my right all during that meeting. The first eight groups of persons that came up there was not a complaint which they made but what it was possible to meet their objection, and I told them the department would remedy that, whereupon, after the eighth came on, Giles said, '■ ^^'ould you object to my interrupting the meeting to make a few renmrks?" I said, "Not in the slightest, Mr. Giles; this is your meeting." Whereupon Mr. Giles got up and criticized the depart- ment and claimed that they were not having a public meeting, and moved that a committee be appointed to draft some resolutions. A committee was appointed, and after they went out I resumed the meeting, and in about eight or nine minutes the committee reported back and submitted resolutions whereby they condemned the method of conducting the meetina; and stated that the department was not giving them an opportunity to state their objections. I got up and took some exception to that. I said that I had been sent out there by the Postmaster General, who was sincere in making an honest effort to meet every legitimate postal objection, that there were no strings tied to us, our instructions were unlimited, and that they were putting up a resolution which was not in accordance with the facts, and I said it didn't seem to me that they wanted to go on record as submitting a resolution of that character, whereupon there was some discussion, and they modified the resolution so as to show that they were not given an opportunity to state in general — • to make any general complaint. I said, " That is entirely satisfactory to me, gentlemen." I said, " I am not here to get a general complaint. You gentlemen came to Washington a few days ago with a trunkful of complaints, which were general, and you brought them back with you," and I said, '" Mv. Barnham has promised to turn over to me for my use all the specific complaints, and if we can get hold of all the specific complaints and remedy those, in my opinion, there will be no cause for general com- plaint." I said the purpose of this meeting was, as far as I am con- cerned, to get the specific complaints of every individual, and that we did. A record was made of each complaint, after which they were all gone oA'er, and wherever there was any question on road condi- tions, I noted the condition and made a personal inspection, inter- viewing farmers along the road. I believe every section of the county was heard and given a fair hearing, and the changes which were recommended and put into effect, I believe, should meet every legitimate postal requirement of the people of that county. The report on Rensselear Countv has only just been ready for submission. It has not been rendered yet to the department, but when 108 KXTKAL FREE DELIVEEY SEEVICE. these changes are put in, I believe, every legitimate complaint in that county Avill be met. Mr. Gould. Did you cover Clifton Springs ? Mr. Dow. I think Mr. Satterfield had that. Mr. Gould. I talked with Mr. Blakslee a few moments ago as to the routes at Clifton Springs, and filed a petition with him to have route Xo. 3-2 restored. I do not suppose you have any knowledge of the justice of that request. Mr. Dow. I do not at the present, but could look it up in tli,e records. Mr. GotTLD. You do not know about the situation there ? ]Mr. Dow. Not now, personally ; but the matter will be looked into. Mr. Sanders. There are no further questions, I think. I have a communication from Congressman Mott, setting forth his position on this matter, and lie has asked me to place it in the record. If there is no objection, that will be done. Mr. Black. I move we adjourn. Mr. Sanders. The statement of jNIr. Mott will be inserted iii the hearing, then. (The statement referred to is copied in the record, as follows:) STATEMENT OF HON. LUTHEE W. MOTT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE THIRTY-SECOND DISTRICT, NEW YORK. jNIr. jNIdTT. Mr. Chairman, I represent the Thirty-second district of an'cw York in Congress. This district comprises the counties of Jef- ferson, Oswego, Madison, and Lewis. ( )f these counties Oswego, Madison, and Lewis were affected by the changes made in the Rural jMail Serviio under an order from the department issued about ]May 1, 1919. Oswego County was particularly affected, al)out 11 routes being entii'ely discontinued and a great number of others materially lengthened. I received from my constituents sevei'al hundred letters of protests as well as numerous petitions from patrons of rural routes and resolutions adopted by organizations of farmers in my district, such as the Grange and County Farm Bureau Association. Fi-om this as well as from personal in\estigation I l)ccame convinced that the policy of the department as set fortli in its order of ^lay 1 was not only generally unpopular among the farmers of my district but was working a( tual injury to many jiatrons of rural routes. T be- came conA'inced also that these drastic changes had been made by the department without studying of local conditions and without consulting pati'ons of routes. Routes were lengthened to such an extent as to malvc them practically impo.^sible to negotiate in one day (luring the winter. As weeks passed and the new policy had a chance to work out, protests increased. 1 repeatedly protested to the de]:)artment and was finally informed that an investigation would be conducted by representatives of the dejiartment in the localities affected. I am pleased to say that I received very gratifying reports regarding the courtesy shown by the post-ottice inspectors, and in this connection desire particularly to express my a)3preciation for the painstaking and efficient work done by Inspector Brigham in my home county of Oswego. As a result of Mr. Brigham's reconniiendations on July 1, seven of the discontinued routes were restored and many adjustments made BUBAL, FBEB DELIVERY SEBVICB. 109- which greatly added to the efficiency of the service and the comfort of the patrons. I believe that as a result of changes made July 1 a great deal of the injury done the farmers of northern New York through the order of May 1 has been rectified. I believe, however, from letters which I have received from my constituents and from personal talks with patrons of routes affected that farmers of my district would be better satisfied if all routes were restored as they existed prior to May 1, 1919. The farmers of northern New York believe that they are entitled to one adequate delivery of mail each day and they believe that their mail should arrive at a reasonably early hour. They do not believe that the Post Office Department should economize at the expense of the patrons of the rural route. They believe also that radical and extreme changes made in rural mail service from administrative headquarters at Washington with- out previous adequate investigation are bound to prove disastrous. If the Post Office Department will show rural residents that it, is willing to cooperate with them and will take farmers into its confi- dence regarding necessary changes, a large part of the friction and misundei-standing caused by the order of May 1 will be in the future avoided. CJThereupon, upon motion duly seconded, the subcommittee ad- journed at 5.30 o'clock p. m., to meet again in executive session at the call of the chairman.) X 1 1 ll I I !l