1 arY 885 fi to % ■ 1892, NEW SOUTH WALES. REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF NQUIRY INTO THE ALLF.GED DEFECTIVENESS AND UNSUITABILITY OF THE BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES. APPOINTED MARCH 15, 1892. ilregcntfO to J^ailfament 6a ©ommanti. fUf .Oi.] 6— a SYDNEY ; CHARLES POTTER, GOVERNMENT PRINTER. 1892. \<^^ '/^/ Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924032198669 Cornell University Library arY885 Report of the Royal commission of inquir 3 1924 032 198 669 olin.anx 1892. NEW SOUTH WALES. REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO THE ALLEGED DEFECTIVENESS AND UNSUITABILITY OP THE BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES. APPOINTED MARCH 15, 1892. ^^resentfU to J^arltament fig ©ommanir. [lOs.] Q—a SYDNEY : CHARLES POTTER, GOVERNMENT PRINTER. 1892. 3^ CONTENTS. PAGE. Title-page i Contents ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .,, ,., ... .,, .,, 2 Commission... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ,,, 3 Extension of Commissions 3 Minutes of Proceedings ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 5 Eeport 11 Professor "Warren's Eeport on Tests of Baldwin Passenger Engine i Indicator Diagrams... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .;. iii Professor Warren's Eeport on Axles and Tires of Baldwin Engines v Do do do Strength and Stability of Grlenlee Bridge vii Do do do Strength of Bridges on New South "Wales Eailways when loaded with heaviest Baldwin Engine hauling its heaviest load viii Mr. Poxlee's Eeport on Tests of Bridges on New South "Wales Eailways is; Minutes of Evidence 1 Correspondence re Purchase of Baldwin Engines — , Twelve 10-wheeled Passenger Engines 302 Twenty Consolidated Goods Engines -317 Specification of Passenger Engines ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 319 Do Consolidation Goods Engines ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 325 Letters from Mr. Hoyle to Acting Minister for Eailways and from Secretary for. Eailways to Mr. Hoyle 331 Correspondence between Eailway Commissioners and Minister for Eailways re Mr. Hoyle's state- ments in Parliament ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 331 Eetums of Eepairs to Engines ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 339 Eeturn re Broken Eails on portion of "Western Line ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 346 Messrs. Kidd and Pollock's Eeport on Trial of Passenger Engine 347 Measurements of Platform showing clearance ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 350 Eeport of Messrs Eichardson, Stanger, & Neale re tests with Baldwin Engines ... ... ... 367 Appendices to Statement of Chief Eailway Commissioner : — A. Diagram of Grades, Penrith to Bathurst. B 1. Eelative Grades New South "Wales aifd Alpine Eailways (diagram). B 2. Do do do do (tabulated). C. Diagrams showing E,unning of Trains between Penrith and Eskbank and vice versa. D 1. Drawing of Baldwin Consolidation Goods Engine. D 2. Do do 10-wheel Express Engine. E. Do do 10-wheel English Express Engine. E 1. Diagram showing profile of Baldwin Engine in connection with existing Eailway Structures. E 2. Diagram showing " Mann" Car. G. • Do of Engine No. 132, Class J. H. "Weights of Eails and Express Passenger Engines. I. Appendix to Eeport of Messrs. Kidd and Pollock — Diagram of Grade. J. Tractive-power and horse-power of locomotives indicated at various rates of speed. 3 (Hommiesion. VIOTOEIA, by tKe Grace of G-od, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith, and so forth, — To our trusty and well-beloved — Peancis Edwaed Rogees, Esquire, One of Our Counsel learned in the Law, President. William Hknet Waebkn, Esquire, Member of the Institute of Civil Engineers, Professor of Engineering of the University of Sydney. Alexander BEowjr, Esquire, a Justice of the Peace of Our Colony of New South "Wales. GreetLag : — Ejtow ye, that We, reposing great trust and confidence in your ability, zeal, industry, discretion, and integrity, do by these presents authorise and appoint you, or any two of you, as hereinafter mentioned, to make a diligent and full inquiry into the allegations made, that the recently imported Baldwin Locomotives are defective and unsuitable to the Permanent Way of the Eailways of Our said Colony of New South Wales, and are not rendering that service which was expected of them : And We do, by these presents, grant to you, or any^ two of you, at any meeting or meetings to which all of you shaU have been duly summoned, full power and authority, to call before you all such persons as you may judge necessary, by whom you may be better informed of the truth in the premises, and to require the production of all such books, papers, writings, and all other documents as jou may deem expedient, and to visit and inspect the same at the oflaces or places where the same or any of them may be deposited, and to inquire of the premises by all lawful ways and means : And We do give you power, at your discretion, to procure such clerical and other assistance as you may deem necessary for enabling you duly to execute this Our Commission : And Our further will and pleasure is, that you do within two months after the date of this Our Commission, certify to Us, in the office of Our Colonial Treasurer, under your or any two of your hands and seals, what you shall find touching the premises : And We hereby command all Government officers and other persons whomsoever within Our said Colony that they be assistant to you and each of you in the execution of these presents : And We appoint you the said Feancis Edwaed HooEBS, Esq., to be President of this Our Commission, which said Commission We declare to be a Commission fpr all purposes of the Act 44 Victories No. 1, intituled, " An Act to regulate the taking of evidence hy Commissioners under the Oreat Seal." In testimony whereof. We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent, and the Great Seal of Our said Colony of New South Wales to be hereunto affixed. Witness, Our Eight Trusty and Eight Well-beloved Cousin and Councillor, Victor Albert George, Eael oi? Jeeset, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Our Governor and Commander-in-Chief of Our Colony of New South Wales and its Dependencies, at Government House, Sydney, in New South Wales aforesaid, this fifteenth day of March, in the fifty- fifth year of Our Eeign, and in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety -two. (L.s.) JEESET. EXTENSION OF COMMISSION. Whereas it is necessary to extend the time by which the Commissioners are to make their report in the above matter : Now, therefore, I do [ hereby ,',with the advice of the Executive Council, extend the time within which the said Commissioners are to make such report until the fifteenth July next. Given under my hand at Government House, Sydney, this twelfth day of May, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-two. JEESET. By His Excellency's Command, F. B. 8UTT0E. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRY COMMISSION, MINUTES OF MEETINGS. TUESDAY, 5 APRIL, 1892. Present : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The Commission was read. Edward G-eorge Jerrom was appointed messenger to the Commission at a weekly salary of £2 2s. Eesolved, — That th« times of meeting be from 2 to 5 o'clock on Tuesday and Wednesday after-, noons, and from 2 to 430 o'clock ou Thursday afternoon. The Chief Commissioner of Eailways was called in and questioned briefly with regard to the general nature of the allegations made in 'Parliament and elsewhere in respect of the Baldwin Engines. The Secretary was instructed to summon Mr. Henry Hoyle, M.P , aw the witness for the following Tuesday. TUESDAY, 12 APJRIL, 1892. Peesext: — ■ Prancis Edward Jiogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I. C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous m_eeting were read and confirmed. A letter was read from Messrs. li. Towns & Co., agents for Kew South Wales for the Baldwin Locomotive Co., requesting that the Company might be allowed to have a representative at the inquiry. The Chief Commissioner of Eailways asked, on behalf of himself and colleagues, permission to employ legal assistance at the inquiry. The President stated that the inquiry would be conducted in public, and that, therefore, there would be no objection to the presence of any person. Those interested in the inquiry might, during the proceedings, take counsel i\ ith legal friends. It Avas not, ho^Aever, thought desirable that witnesses should be examined except by the gentlemen composing the Commission>, who would, at suitable times, ask any pertinent questions that might be suggested to them. Mr. Henry Hoyle, M.P., was sworn and examined. WEDNESDAY, 13 APRIL, 1802. Pkesest :— Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor AVarren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. David Carnegie Simpson, Divisional Engineer in the Metropolitan District ; Mr. Edward Millar Gard Eddy, Chief Conmiissioncr of Eailways ; "Rlr. Deodatus Hilin Ncale, A.M.I.C.E., Mechanical Engineer on the staff of the Eailway Commissioners. THURSDAY, 14 APRIL, lSi)2. PnESEJfT : — Prancis Edward Eogers, Esq,, Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined: — Mr. Deodatus Hilin Neale,,\.M.I.C.E. , Mechanical Engineer on the staff of the Eailway Commissioners; Mr. William T. Eoxlee, M.I.C.E., Engineer-in-Chief for Existing Lines ; Mr. William Thow, M.LC.E , Chief Mechanical Engineer. WEDNESDAY, 20 APRIL, 1892. PllESEXT : — Prancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined: — Mr. Henry B. Howe, Workshop Manager; Mr. Henry H. Park, Shed Foreman, Penrith ; Mr. William Wilson, Locomotive Inspector, Bathurst. THURSDAY, 6 TRUBSDAY, 21 APBIL, 1892, Peesent : — Prancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.B., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. "William "Wilson amended the evidence given by him on the previous day. The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. 'William Pilford, Shed Inspector, Newcastle District ; Mr. Isaac Grregory, Shed Foreman, Penrith ; Mr. Henry Eobinson, on the stafE of the Locomotive Super- intendent; Mr. Chatles Baggs," Sub-inspector Locomotive Department, Esk Bank; Mr. Henry Deane, Engineer-in-Chief to the railways of New South Wales. TUESBAT, 26 APBIL, 1892. Pebsjsnt : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. Edward Molloy Halligan, Divisional Engineer in the Northern Division ; Mr. John Love, Steam-shed Inspector, Junee ; Mr. John EuUerton, Engine-driver; Mr. Charles Hursthouse Stanger, Outdoor Locomotive Superintendent, in charge of the Northern and Western Divisions; Mr. Thos. Ehodes Eirth, Chief Assistant Engineer in the Construction Branch; Mr, Stanley Alexander. WEBNESBAT, 27 AFBIL, 1892. PeESENT : — Francis Edward Rogers Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J. P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. Gr. Cowdery, Civil Engineer, and Mr. J. Hordern, Engine-driver. The Commission proceeded on a visit of inspection to the Locomotive sheds at Eveleigh returning to the Colonial Secretary's Office too late in the afternoon to hear further evidence. At its rising the Commission adjourned to Tuesday the 3rd May to enable Mr. Hoyle to visit the scene of the disastrous railway accident that had occurred that morning near Tarana. TUESBAY, 3 MAY, 1892. Pebsent : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq. J. P. The minuies of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. Thomas Midelton, Mechanical Engineer, was examined. WEBNESBAY, 4 MAY, 1892. PeESENT : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J. P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. Thomas Midelton, Mr. Joshua Eushworth. THVBSBAY, 5 MAY, 1892. PeESENT : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President, Professor Warren, M.I.CE., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined : — Henry Joseph Moses, Engine-driver ; William Wilson, Ganger ; Walter Marshall Foote, Steel-worker. TUESBAY, 10 MAY, 1892. Peesent : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.CE., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined : — Charles Augustus G-oodchap, late Commissioner for Eailways ; George Cowdery, late Engineer for Existing Lines ; James Isaac Haycroft, Engineer for the Borough of Woollahra ; Alexander Duff. WEBNESBAY. WEBNJESBAT, 11 MAT, 1892. Present : — Prancis Edward Sogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of tlie previous meeting were read and confirmed. n jj i i The following witnesses were examined ;— Jeremiah Tuites, Manager for Messrs. Proudioot and Co., Tarana ; Alexander Terrier Watson, Divisional Engineer ; Henry H. Park, Shed Inspector ; William Nield, Driver ; Alexander Page, Driver ; William Toung, Driver ; Patrick Hayes, Ganger ; J ohn fc>loane, Granger ; James Walsh, Granger. , THUBSDAT, 12 MAY, 1892. PeESENT : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq,, J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined :— Samuel Joseph PoUitzer, Consulting Engineer ; James Dunhar, Manager for Messrs. Proudf oot & Co., Bathurst ; Frederick Elliott, engine driver ; Patrick Dwyer, ganger ; Greorge Erederick Evans, locomotive fireman ; George Tates, shed foreman, Duhbo ; William Ehodes, mechanical engineer for the Baldwin Locomotive Company. FBIDAT, 13 MAY, 1892. Phesent : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. William Ehodes, mechanical engineer for the Baldwin Locomotive Company, was further examined. SUNDAY, 15 MAY, 1892. Present : — Eranpis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E. The minutes of the previous meeting were postponed. The Commission proceeded with a trial train to Picton, and during the day various tests were made with Baldwin passenger engine No. 447. The first trial was from Picton to Picton Lakes, up a gradient of 1 in 40, and the load hauled was 179 tons. The engine returned tender first to Picton, and again traversed the 1 in 40 gradient between there and Picton Lakes, this time with a load of 157 tons 12 cwt. Erom Picton Lakes the engine proceeded to Hill Top, the load being 121 tons 14 cwt., and the gradient 1 in 30 ; and after returning tender first to Picton Lakes, again took the incline of 1 in 30, the load on this occasion being 144 tons 2 cwt. Subse,quently, as a test of speed, the engine travelled with a load of 157 tons 12 cwt. from Picton to Thirlmere. TUESDAY, 17 MAY, 1892. Present : — Alexander Brown, Esq., J. P., Acting President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Samuel Joseph Pollitzer, C. E., made a voluntary statement in regard to the evidence given by him on Thursday the 12th instant. Albert Leahy, C. E., was examined. Mr. Hoyle intimated that he had no further evidence to call, and at the request of Mr. Eehon the proceedings were then adjourned to the following day. WEDNESDAY, 18 MAY, 1892. Present : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E. | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Edward Millar Gard Eddy, A.I.C.E., Chief Eailway Commissioner of New South Wales, made a statement preparatory to the calling of witnesses by the Eailway Comniissioners; THURSDAY, 19 MAY, 1892. Present : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The foUovring witnesses were examined : — Hugh M'Lachlan, Secretary to the Eailway Com- missioners ; John Grady, ganger on the New South Wales Eailways ; John BerghofEer, ganger on the New South Wales Eailways; Charles Lowe, ganger on the New South Wales Eailways; John M'Peak, ganger on the New South Wales Eailways ; William King, Sub-Inspector of Permanent way on the New South Wales Eailways ; Edward Eobins, Inspector of Permanent way on the New South Wales Eailways. WEDNESDAY, WEDXESBAT, 25 MAT, 1892. Present : — PrauL'is .Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C., Presidejit. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were e.xamiued : — Eiohard Waring, Chief Inspector on the Nc^w^South Wales Eailways ; James Eraser, assistant to the Engineer-in-Chief for Existing Lines ; William T. Foxlee, M.I.C.E., Engineer-in-Chief for Existing Lines. , THUBSBAY, 26 MAY, 1892. Present ; — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting' were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were called and examined :— Mr. William Thow, M.I.C.E , Chief Mechanical Engineer in the service of tlio Now Soutli Wales Eailways ; Mr. Charles Hursthouse Stanger, Out-door Locomotive Superintendent in the service of the Now South Wales Eailways. ERIBAY, 27 MAY, 1892. Present : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were examined :— William Thow, M.I.C.E., Chief Mechanical Engineer in Ihe service of the Netv South Wales Eailways; Edwin Molloy ITalligan, Shed Eoreman, Newcastle; Eobert Pollock, Consulting Engineer ; Howell Bland, Assistant Eeceiving Eoreman at Evcleigh : John Chudleigh, Engine-driver on the New South Wales Eailways ; W. W. Young, Engine-driver on the New South Wales Eailways ; Henry Eobinson, Civil Engineer in the service of the New South Wales Eailways ; Deodatus Hilin Neale, Assoc. M.I.C.E., Mechanical Engineer in the service of the New South Wales Eailways. TUESBAY, 31 MAY, 1892. Pkese>'t : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The fpllowing witnesses were further examined: — Henry Deane, Chief Engineer in the Railway Construction Branch ; Deodatus Hilin Neale, Assoc. M.I.C.E , Mechanical Engineer in the service of the New South Wales Eailways. WEBNE8BAY, 1 JUNE, 1892. Present : — 'Eranois Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C;, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. George Cowdery, C.E., made a voluntary statement in regard to the evidence given by bim when previously before the Commission. Edward Millar Card Eddy, Chief Eailway Commissioner, was examined by Mr. Brown Mr. Iloyle, in consequence of statements made by Mr. Eddj', refusing to cross-examine him. TRUSS BAY, 2 JUI^E, 1892. P.BESE3S-T : — Prancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., .T.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Commission proceeded to the consideration of the Eeport. TRUBSBAY, 9 JUI\'E, 1892. Present : — Prancis Edward Rogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warreii, M.I.C.E., j Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. , The Commission further considered the Eeport. TRUBSBAY. 9 TRUBSBAT, 16 JUNE, 1892, Present : — Prancis Edward Rogers, Esq., Q.C., President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Keport was further considered. FRIDAY, 17 JUNjE, 1892. Peesent : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C. President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following witness was examined: — Mr. William Thow, M.I.C.E , and M.I.M.E., Chief Mechanical Engineer in the service of the New South Wales Eailways. WEDNESDAY, 22 JUNE, 1892. Peesent : — Erancis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E. | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Eeport was further considered. TUESDAY, 28 JUNE, 1892. PbESEKT : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E. The minutes of the previous meeting were postponed. The lleport was further considered. WEDNESDAY, 29 JUNE, 1892. Present : — • Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor AVarren, M.I.C.E. | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the two previous meetings were read and confirmed. The Eeport was further considered. TRUBSDAY, 30 JUNE, 1892. Present : — Francis Edward Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I CE. | Alexander Brown, Esq., J.P. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Report was adopted. TRUBSDAY, 14 JULY, 1892. Present : — F. E. Eogers, Esq., Q.C, President. Professor Warren, M.I.C.E., f The Hon. Alex. Brown, M.L.C The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The balance sheet was produced and read. The accounts were passed. F. E. ROGERS, 14 July, 1892. President. Q—b 11 BALDWIN ENGINES COMMISSION. EEPORT. To His Excellency The Right Honorfiblc Victor Albert George, EaeIl of Jersey, a Member of Her Majesty's Most Honorable Privy Council, Kuight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the Colony of New South Wales and its Dependencies. May it please Your Excellency, — We, the Comraissioners appointed by Your Excellency on the IStli day of March, 1892, " to make a diligent and full inquiry into the allegations made, that the recently imported Baldwin Locomotives are defective and unsuitable to the Permanent-way of the Railways of your said Colony of New South Wales, and are not rendering that service which was expected of them," have the lioror to submit the following Report : — It appears that about the month of August, 1890, and prior to the. ordering of the Baldwin locomotives, various negotiations for the supply of engines to be built in the Colony had failed, and English locomotive builders were unable to promptly supply engines sufficient for the then requirements of the Hallway Service of the Colony. Under these circumstances, the Railway Commissioners, finding that the exigencies of traffic (especially that anticipated in wool during the then approaching wool season) demanded the immediate supply of further engine power, appointed a committee of responsible officers in the New South Wales Railway Service, consisting of Mr. D. H. Neale (Mechanical Engineer), Messrs. Loughry and Stanger (Outdoor Locomotive Superintendents), and Mr. Howe (Workshop Manager), to report upon the merits of the 10-wheel American express passenger and the consolidation goods engines, the information to hand regarding which was that such engines had been tried with most satisfactory results in the United States on railway lines resembling in many respects those of New South Wales. This- Committee had before them the specification of an engine which had been supplied by the Baldwin Co. to the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Co., and which appeared to the Committee to be suitable in every respect for the railways of New South Wales. After careful consideration, the Committee advised the Railway Commissioners to order from the Baldwin Co. engines of a similar character to that described in the specification, subject to certain modifications in construction, which they considered would render the engines more suitable to the conditions existing in the Colony, and these modifications appear to your Commissioners, as far as the evidence enables them to judge, to have, been judicious. In consequence of the Report twelve Eoport, passenger engines were ordered and obtained from the Baldwin Co., and subsequently i September, twenty engines for goods traGBc were ordered and obtained from the same company (page 302). (including two engines on the compound system, which were ordered by way of experiment, and which need not be considered in this Report). The sufficiency and merits of the passenger and goods engines so obtained are the matters respecting which your Commissioners are directed to inquire. AS 12 AS TO THE ALLEGED DEFECTIVENESS OE THE BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES. Soon after the locomotives were imported and allowed to run, various defects developed themselves, all of which, it is stated, have been remedied at the expense of the Baldwin Co. Of the defects which manifested themselves it now seems only important to draw attention to the very grave one shown by the undue heating and eventual breaking of certain bogie and tender axles, which, on being tested, ' proved to have been made of very inferior iron. On their being informed of the Letter, 15th breakages, the explanation of the Baldwin Co. was that the axles had been ^e^ruary, obtained by them from a manufacturer whose product had been hitherto largely (page 314). used with good results, and that as the axles were supposed to be made of selected scrap-iron, no test had been prescribed, as no test of scrap-iron axles is conclusive. Subsequent events showed that it was most unfortunate that no test was made by the Baldwin Co., as most probably it would not then have been left for the above mentioned breakages to lead to the discovery that the material used in these axles was most unsuitable for its purpose. Unquestionably the Hallway Commissioners would, if possible, have had an inspection of these engines during their construction similar to the practice in that respect which is observed in England when engines are there manufactured for the Railway Service of this Colony, and, as a matter of fact, they authorised Mr. Thow, the Chief Mechanical Engineer in the New South Wales Eailway Service, who was about to visit America on his way from England to this Colony, to have an inspector appointed if he McLaohian's deemed it desirable ; but, on reaching America, Mr. Thow appears to have consulted letter o* |2nd "writh the most reliable authorities in that country, from whom he ascertained that (page 304,), it was Very uuusual to appoint an inspector over engines built by such a firm as and Mr. ijj^e Baldwin Co. ; and as it had , been left to the Baldwin Co. to • do their best J.I10W s r6t)lv ■ thereto, dated to supply thoroughly efficient and serviceable engines which would do credit to ?*a ^^m^^^ their builders, and as Mr. Thow was not in a position to give a specification or set of ^*^^ ' drawings to an inspector, such an officer could not have been of any practical use, especially under a contract which did not provide for the supervision, or in any way recognise the authority of an inspector. And it seems that Mr. Thow very properly concluded that the appointment of an inspector would be more likely to relieve the Baldwin Co. of the responsibility which rested upon them than be of any practical service. The construction of the locomotives was, therefore, carried through without the employment of an inspector, and after their com- pletion and arrival in this Colony they were erected and put into steam under the supervision of an engineer sent for that purpose by the Baldwin Co. No test of the material in the engines was at that time applied in this Colony. Any test that could have been applied would have involved the destruction of the parts tested, and the Railway Commissioners had not then any reason to doubt the sufficiency of the material in all parts of locomotives supplied by a firm of the standing and reputation of the Baldwin Co. It is to be borne in mind that it was only after the Baldwin Co. had been told of the breakages that the Hallway Commissioners were informed by them of the facts relating to the supply of the axles, and that no test of them had been prescribed. As soon as the defectiveness of the axles was established all the bogie and tender axles were removed, steel ones were substituted at the expense of the Baldwin Co., and the locomotives were again put into service. Since then three tires of tender wheels have broken, and in some twelve or fifteen cases engine wheels have worked loose on their axles. As such occurrences are unusual on engines which have only given the service which has been obtained from these locomotives, your Commis- sioners cannot too strongly approve of the recent determination of the E-ailway Commissioners to forthwith remove the wheels and axles of all the passenger locomotives, with a view of having them properly tested^ which has rendered unnecessary a recommendation to that effect which your Commissioners would otherwise have felt it their dtity to make. Since that decision was arrived at, the tires and axles have been tested under the supervision of Professor Warren, whose report (appended hereto) shows that the steel of which the tires are made is not sufficiently uniform in quality, and is too hard and brittle, and thus renders them very liable to fracture. The testing of one of the driving-axles under the falling weight showed that its material is defective and unsafe for -passenger traffic, but whether the remaining axles may suffice for use in goods traffic, where the slower rate 13 rat.e of speed observed renders them less liable to fracture, can only be decided wlien further tests shall have been made — such as tensile and bending tests on specimens cut from the axle fractured by the process above mentioned. AS TO THE ALLEGED UNSUITABILITY OF THE BALDWIN LOCO- MOTIVES TO THE PERMANENT- WAY OE THE NEW SOUTH WALES RAILWAYS. The permanent- way consists at present of six kinds of rails : Iron rails, double-headed, originally weighing 75 lb. to the yard ; flat-based Vignole or T rails, weighing 7 1^ lb. per yard; steel rails, bull-headed and flat-based, weighing 80 lb. per yard ; double-headed steel rails, weighing 75 lb. per yard ; flat-based steel rails, weighing 71^ lb. per yard. Since the Railway Commissioners came into office over 200 miles of the lines have been laid with 80-lb. steel raOs on ironbark sleepers, which average in weight 2 cwt. 1 qr., placed 2 ft. 7 in. from centre to centre. It is proposed by them that the whole of the Western Line shall consist of steel rails, weighing on different portions 80 lb., 75 lb., 71^ lb. to the yard, on ironbark sleepers similarly spaced. A great deal of the line originally laid down, and which may be called the old road, consists at present of iron rails worn at the present time to probably about 70 and 73^ lb. per yard, laid upon ironbark sleepers placed from 8 ft. to 3 ft. 1 in. from centre to centre. This old road has been strengthened on curves, and on some other portions, by additional sleepers. The evidence of the Chief Commissioner of Railways and of Mr. Rhodes, ^1^^99^. an engineer representing the Baldwin Company, and Mr. Neale (before mentioned), 6122-7925. on the weight of rails and the maximum loads on the driving-wheels of engines which pass over them, shows that heavier engines run upon steel rails which are lighter than the lightest rails in use in New South Wales. For example, in America the Baltimore and Ohio Co.'s Railway use a 67-lb. steel rail to cai*ry an axle load of 15 tons 14 cwt., and a total weight of engine and tender of 93 tons 6 cwt. The Eastern Railway of France employ engines carrying a load of 16 tons 2 cwt. on rails weighing from 69 to 89^ lb. per yard. The rails are 39 feet long, and are carried on sixteen sleepers, 'f In America the average spacing of the sleepers is 2 feet from centre to centre, but the timber is soft and frequently of inferior quality. The ironbark sleepers used in this Colony are superior in hardness and in every other respect to the Aiiierican sleepers. Sir John Fowler and Sir Benjamin Baker, most eminent engineers in England, are of opinion that a 70-lb. rail on ironbark sleepers, laid 3 feet from centre to centre, is perfectly safe for axle loads of 16 tons, provided that the ballasting is well maintained and the permanent- way in good order. It must be concluded, therefore, that, assuming the material to be good and the conditions last- named to exist, the old road of the New South Wales Railways is perfectly safe for such axle loads as are carried by the Baldwin locomotives, the weight of which amounts to 15 tons 5^ cwt. on the passenger, and 15 tons 9 cwt. on the consolidation engines, and inference to the contrary is not to be drawn on account of the breaking of the rail which caused the recent deplorable accident near Tarana, as at the point of fracture an old flaw was discovered which extended from the base upwards for about half the depth of the rail, the existence of which was not disclosed till after the accident. Your Commissioners recognise the fact that, since their accession, to office, the Railway Commissioners have done their utmost, with the means at their disposal, to effect improvement, by relaying a large portion of the lines ; and it is most desirable that provision should be made to enable them to ■ continue their efforts in this direction, which, apart from other considerations, are to be commended on economic grounds. A great deal of evidence was given with the view of showing that the platforms were altered to accommodate the Baldwin engines, but your Commissioners think that the proper conclusion to be drawn is that the alterations were made for the purpose of bringing the platforms to the standard gauge, and would have been carried out in any event ; probably their completion was very properly accelerated in view of the anticipated use of the Baldwin engines. The strength of the various bridges, in regard to their capacity to carry the Baldwin engines, forms the subject of a special report by Professor Warren, from which it will be seen that some of the existing bridges and viaducts, especially the Solitary Creek bridge, on the Western Line, and the Wollondilly 14 WoUondilly bridges, on the Soutlicrn Line, as well as the viaduct near Wagga "Wagga, are noAV subjected to stresses considerably in excess of that which would be regarded as safe according to the best English practice; and it is therefore satisfac- tory to observe that the Commissioners are taking steps to have these structures strengthened, and also that Mr. Deane, tlie Engineer-in- Chief for Railway Construction, has designed stronger types of timber viaducts, in view of the increased weight of the engines now used on the New South Wales Railways. The -See Professor ncw viaduct at Glcnlce (designed by Mr. Eoxlee, Engineer- in- Chief for Existing ]^p°o7r*' Lines) is another example of the increased strength of the timber structures which (pageTii). has become necessary in consequence of the increased Aveight of engines. It is a well-known fact that the increase in the weight of locomotives, and the strengthening of bridges and viaducts to carry them safely, have been most marked during the last ten years in all parts of the Avorld, and it is not to be supposed that structures intended to carry engines considerably lighter than those now in use should be safe to carry loads greatly in excess of those for which they were originally designed. As to the general effect of the Baldwin locomotives on the permanent-way, it does not appear that the wear and tear is greater than in the case of other engines ; on the contrary, their flexibility renders them less likely to spread the road than the moi'e rigid engines of English manufacture. AS TO THE ALLEGATIONS THAT THE BALDWIN ENGINES ARE NOT RENDERING THAT SERVICE WHICH W^xiS EXPECTED OE THEM. To ascertain what was really expected of these engines it is necessary to consider the evidence of Mr. Neale and Mr-. Stanger rather thaii tlie correspondence, because it will be found on reference to the latter that, in consequence presumably of alterations suggested in a letter by the Secretary to the Railway Commissioners, on the 2nd September, 1890, the Baldwin Co. declined to give a definite guarantee -See letter of Speed. An extract from the Company's letter to their New South Wales Towns^^Co!' agents, Messrs. Towns & Co., is in tliese terms : — " We have carefully considered to the Bail- the Conditions of service for which these locomotive^ are intended, viz., to haul 2era°o™The 1^2 to 176 gross tons of cars and load at a speed of 22 miles per hour up 15th Dec, long grades of 136 feet per mile, combined with severe curvature, and to haul up (page 317). grades of 176 feet per mile, with easier curvature, loads of 120 to 144 gross tons. We note that the sharpest curves are of 528 feet radius, but it is not stated that this is the radius of the curves in combination with the 130 feet grade. Our calculations indicate that the engines will have suflScient tractive force to haul these loads, but we prefer not to make a definite guarantee of the speed, as it is more or less dependent upon conditions of which we are not fully informed, such as the quality of the coal, the wheel-base of rolling-stock, condition of track, &c." According to Mr. Neale, the Railway Commissioners had in their letter put the required speed very high, and he states that thei-efore he was not at all alarmed at the refusal of the Baldwin Co. to guarantee the speed ; in point of fact what it was really expected tlie engines would be required to do was less than the Baldwin Co. were asked to guarantee. See reports The rcsults of trials of these engines Avill be found in appendices liereto, and BichsKisoii ^^^7 demonstrate their great hauling power and show that the passenger engines are Stanger, and Capable, undcr favourable conditions, of hauling trains weighing 152 tons up a long fT^e 367) gi'^-de of 1 in 40, at a speed of 19^ miles an hour after the engines have settled down Professor ' to their woi'k, and when all their inertia has been eliminated. The reports also show ^sTS ^^^^^ ^^ average speed of about 21 miles an hour with such a load could be obtained Messrs. ' over the whole length of the grade above referred to. It is to be remembered that the ^m^ ""* chief purpose for which the Baldwin engines were imported was to draw heavy loads (page 347). over Hues of railway most exceptional in their character, on which steep gradients and sharp curves are of frequent occurrence, especially on the Western line, which is stated to be more difficult to work than any of the Alpine railways. In conclusion, your Commissioners have the honor to report that in their opinion the Baldwin engines are not unsuitable to the Permanent-way of the Colony, they are not defective in design, and when the objectionable tires and axles have been replaced by others of approved quality, there is no reason to doubt that they will be capable of rendering the service which was expected of them. RECOMMENDATIONS. 15 RECOMMENDATIONS. As the Baldwin Co. were, considering tlieir reputation, very naturally relied upon to furnish engines of high class material, and as, so far, much disappointment and many failures have resulted from that reliance, your Commissioners think it would be prudent : — (a) That the driving axles of the Consolidation engines should be sufficiently tested to prove their suitability or otherwise for goods traffic ; (b) That the Otis steel axles supplied by the Baldwin Co. to replace the iron axles of the bogies and tenders should also be tested ; (c) That the system of inspection which is carried out in the case of engines constructed for this Colony in England should be adopted in all cases. Your Commissioners have the honor to recommend : — (] .) That provision be made to enable the Railway Commissioners to carry out their intention with regard to the strengthening of the WoUondilly and Solitary Creek bridges, and the renewal or strengthening of the Wagga Wagga viaduct, and similar timber structures as soon as possible. (2.) That provision be made to enable the Railway Commissioners to continue their efforts in reballasting and relaying the necessary portions on the "Western and Southern lines. (3.) That the twelve passenger engines bo supplied with new axles and tires of suitable quality before they are restored to passenger service. "We have the honor to be. Your Excellency's most obedient Servants, (Signed) E. E. ROGERS, PllESIDEKT. W. H. WARREN. ALEXANDER BROWN. Dated, Sydney, the 4tli day of July, 1892 Trial of American Ten- wheeled Passenger Engines. It was decided to leave Sydney witli a trial train at 8-20 a.m. on Sunday, 15th May, and to commence the trials from Picton at 10'30 a.m. The first trial to be with a load of 176 tons, up a gradient of 1 in 40, to Picton Lakes, returning tender first to Picton, and next making second trial with 152 tons again to Pictoa Lakes. In each of these trials the train will be set back to the north side of Picton Station, sufficiently far to enable the ' train to attain a speed of 20 miles per hour when passing Picton Station, this being about the ordinary speed of the regular express. The trials up a 1 in 30 gradient to be commenced from Picton Lakes, first trial being with 120 tons, which will be taken to Hill Top ; after returning tender first to Picton Lakes, the second trial up 1 in 30 gradient, with a load of 144 tons, will be made to Hill Top, thence returning tender first to Picton, arriving at about 4 p.m., turning the engine there, and arriving in Sydney at 6'8 p.m. It is not proposed to attempt to take the quantity of coal used in each of these trials, but the quantity used between the commencement of the first trial and the completion of the day's work in Sydney will be ascertained. In addition to the person nominated by those conducting the trials for noting the pressure of steam only, one officer of the Department, in addition to the representative of the Baldwin Company, should be allowed to ride on the engine, in order that the engineman and fireman shall be perfectly unhampered in their movements. Professor Warren's Eeport on the Tests of the Baldwin Passenger Engine hetween Picton and Hilltop. Thk tests of the power developed by the passenger engines when hauling trains up steep gradients were made on the 1 in 40, 1 in 33, and 1 in 30 grades between Picton and Hilltop. The object of these tests was to ascertain whether these engines were capable of doing the work which was expected of them, viz. — to haul a passenger train weighing 153 gross tons up long grades of 130 feet per mile (1 in 40) at a speed of *22 miles per hour.* The train actually used consisted of Pullman sleeping cars and first-class lavatory carriages weighing in the tests over the 1 in 40 grade, Nos. 2 and 5, 157 tons 12 cwt. 2 qr. or 5 tons 12 cwt. 2 qr. in excess of the stipulated loads. The day was fine and the rails dry, and the conditions in every way most favourable; The speed of the train in the various tests was ascertained by observing the time taken to travel over each quarter-mile by means of stop watches specially made for this class of work, and kindly let by Mr. P. M. AUcock, Haymarket, G-eorge-street, Sydney. The indicator diagrams were taken by IVIessrs. Pollock and Kidd, who were specially employed by the Eailway Commissioners to do this workjt and the areas of these diagrams were accurately measured by means of a planimetre, the tractive force and the horse-power calculated. All these measurements and calculations have been made independently, and the results are recorded in the following table : — Number of Test. Oiade. Tractive force in pounds. Indicated horse- power. Total load hauled in tons. Speed in miles per hour. Grade resistance in pounds per ton hauled. Train resistance in pounds per ton hauled. Train resistance calculated by Searle's formula. Remarks. 1 1 in 40 18,191-4 817 272 16-8 56-0 10-8 12-46 2 1 in 40 i7,8ori 899 249 18-9 56-0 15-5 14-65 3a 3S lin33 lin30 16,313-4 18,690-3 884 819 211 211 20-3 17-0 67-9 74-G 9-4 14-0 17-14 13-63 Short grade engine had not settled down to its work. 4a 4i lin33 linSO 18,177-3 19,647-9 849-6 771-7 231 231 17-5 14-7 67-9 74-6 10-7 10-4 13 26 10 93 Short grade engine had no settled down to its work. 5 1 in 40 17,305-2 921-7 243 19-4 56-0 15-2 14-36 The diagrams appended to this report have been selected from the forty-five taken during the various tests, and they represent in each case the work done in the cylinders when the engine was exerting its maximum horse-power for the particular test under consideration. The total resistance in pounds per ton offered by the train is found by dividing the tractive force in pounds by the load hauled in tons. The train resistance is found by subtracting the grade resistance from the total resistance. The Vide le.tter from the Secretary of the Railway Commissioners to the Baldwin Company, September 22, 1890 p. 304. t Vide Messrs. Pollock and Kidd's report, p. 347. ' G—o n The train resistance, calculated from Soarle's formula and recorded in the foregoing table, may be expressed as follows : — Let E = the train resistance in pounds per ton. „ V = the velocity of the train in miles per hpur. „ w = the weight of the engine and tender in tons. „ W = the total weight of train, including the engine and tender. Then— The weight of the engine and tender, including coal, water, and men on the engine, differed in the various tests in consequence of the weight of the coal burnt and the water evaporated. Thus, — in test No. I the weight was approximately 93 tons ; in test No. 2, 91 tons ; in test No. 3, 89 tons ; in test No. 4, S7 tons ; and in test No. 5, 85 tons. In tests No. Sa and No. ia, which were made on the 1 in 33 grade, and recorded in the foregoing table, the actual train resistances are considerably below those calculated from Searle's formula, which is due to the fact that the grade was short and the engine had not settled down to its proper speed ; conse- quently, the recorded speed is greater than would have been the case if the grade had been longer. In the remaining tests the grades were long enough to completely eliminate the inertia of the train at the foot of the grade, and the actual resistances agree closely with those calculated by Searle's formula. In tests Nos. 1 and 2, the results are somewhat lower than might have been expected, owing probably to the fact that the fire had become dead, and the short run from Picton to the fact of the grade was insufficient to ignite it. Again the long pipes leading from the ends of the cylinder to the indicator must have caused a reduction in the pressures recorded by the indicator, and the mean effective pressures, tractive force, and horse powers recorded are probably 5 per cent, too low. The maximum 'horse power recorded during the trials was 9247, which increased by 5 pej? cent, is 971. The horse power necessary to haul a train weighing 152 tons on a grade of 1 m 40 at 22 miles an hour may bei calculated by the following formula : — Let W — the weight of the train including the engine and tender. ,, f = the total resistance in pounds per ton. „ s = the speed in miles per hour. „ H ^ the horse power. Then:- ■ H = :W;i^ = 24>i ^ 72 ^ 22 ^ ^^30 375 375 • - "This result is about 6 per cent, higher than the maximum obtained during the trials, and it is doubtful if the engines would develop this work under any circumstances whatever. As the Baldwin Company refused to guarantee the speeds, the results recorded must be considered satisfactory. The tractive force developed in No. 46 test as well as in the "Wallerawang trials is worthy of note, as it demonstrates the great hauling power of these engines, which appears to be quite as great as those obtained from the Baltimore and Ohio engine, which has a greater weight upon its driving-wheels. The trials demonstralte that the engines will haul the stipulated loads, but that the speed on the 1 in 40 grade with a load of 152 tons is not greater than 19 J miles -an hour when the engine has settled down to its work, but the average speed on the whole length of the 1 in 40 incline is about 21 miles an hour under the most favourable conditions. The coal and water records for these trials gave the following results : — Consumption of coal per mile run ... ... ... ... 82'38 pounds Consumption of water per mile run ... ... ... ... 560'78 pounds One pound of coal evaporated 6'809 pounds of water. The tractive force appears to have been properly proportioned to the adhesion of the driving- wheels, and the design generally embodies the characteristic features of American practice. The engines run steadily, and take the curves without undue oscillation. Professor Ill Indicator Diagrams TfiKZN MflY/S,/6S2, From The Baldwin Passenger Engine. . No. 44T. ScaJe 80/bs to an /nch. Card No. 5. Rt 55"^ Miles Grade / in 40 Speed /6-8 Miles Revs, per M in 92.6 B . P. / 50 lbs. M.E.P. 106. 4 lbs I . H . P. 8/7 Card No. 13. /ft S5 ^a Miles. • Grade / in 40 Speed. IS. 9. Miles. Revs, per Mm. J 04.1 B . P. 1 50 lbs. M.E.P. i 04. J lbs I.H.P. 8 99 Card No /8 flt 66^/3 Af/les. Grade fin J 3 Speed 20.3 Miles Revs, per IVImJII.S B.P. 1 50 lbs. M.E.P. 9S. 4 lbs. I . H .P. 884 Card No. aa m er'^-'a Miles Grade /in 3C Speed /F" Miles Revs, per Mm, 93 . 7 B. P. iSSlbs M. £ . P. 109.3 lbs. /. H . P. 8^3.2 (<5i^6J PHOTO-LITHOGRAPHED AT THE GOVT, PRINTtNG OFFICE, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES. IV Indicator Diagrams Tffff£/v Mat y 15, 1 832. from The. B/^ low in PffssENCEiR Engine. No. 447 Scale QOlbs to an Inch. Card A/o 28 flt &e «« Miles Grade I in 53 Speed 17.5 Miles Pe v^s ' per Mm. 96. 4 B. P. /SSibs M. E .P. /O&.Zibs. I. H .P. 8^9.6 Card No 35 ^t\ 6S^3 Miles Grade / in 30 Speed /4. 7 Miles Revs per Min SI .0 £ . P . / 55 its. M . £ .P . //^.Slbs i.H .P. rr/.F' ^ Card No 42 /Jt 5S^a Miles. Crade / in 40 Speed 19.4 Miles. Revs.per Min ilO. Z B . f^ . ISSIbs M . £ .P. /0y.2lbs / . H .P. 9247 ' i. (61^ 6). PHOTO-LITHOGRAPHEP AT THE GOVT. PRINTING OFFICE, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES. Professor Warren's Eeport on the Axles and Tires of the Baldwin Engines. The stress and strains in axles are very complex. The loads resting upon the journals while they are Axles. rotating develop stresses, which alternate between tension aad compression, ultimately producing fatigue of the material. An axle is also subjected to torsional stresses — as, for example, when running round sharp curves, or when, from unequal wear of brake blocks, the brake pressure applied to the wheels is not equally divided between them, or from insufficient lubrication between the journals and their bearings. The shocks produced by the irregularities of the road, which cannot be entirely overcome by the action of the springs upon the engines and rolling stock, and which increase in frequency and intensity with the speed of the train, the unequal loading of axles, oscillations, and other causes, combine with those already referred to in producing fatigue of the material, and tend to commence and ultimately complete the destruction of the axle. The capacity of an axle to carry its load and to resist the other stresses developed by the causes above enumerated will depend upon its form and dimensions, and upon the physical properties of the material used in its manufacture. The sizes and proportions of the axles of the Baldwin engine are sufficient for their purpose, provided that the iron is of suitable quality. The driving-axles are exceptionally large, viz., 8^ inches in diameter. The failure of these axles on the bogie and tender wheels, and the results of the tensile and drop tests which were subsequently made upon them, clearly demonstrate the inferior character of the material, and their unsuitability for railway traffic* The Baldwin Company have admitted this, and have supplied axles of Otis steel to replace the iron axles on the bogie and tender wheels, and have offered to bear the cost of replacing them. It was stated in evidence " that the large driving axles were not made by the same firm as the bogie and tender axles, and as there was nothing to show that they were of inferior quality," they were allowed to run until recently. On the 23rd of June one of those axles was tested on supports 4 feet apart, centre to centre, and subjected to blows from a ram weighing 1 ton, falling- from a height of 20 feet, the axle being reversed after each blow. The first blow produced a deflection of three-quarters of an inch ; the seeoad blow produced a deflection of seven-eighths of an inch in the reverse direction. The axle was then tested with a drop of 28 feet, which broke it, showing a coarse crystalline fracture. These results are unsatisfactory, and suggest the desirability of replacing these axles with others of suitable material. Meanwhile specimens should be cut out of the fractured axles for further tests in tension and bending. When these tests have been completed it will be possible to say whether the remaining axles may be allowed to run on goods trains, where the slower rate of speed renders them less likely to fracture. It is also suggested that the Otis steel axles supplied by, the Baldwin Company should be thoroughly tested before they are again allowed to run on passenger trains. With regard to the tires : The quality of the material in the tires is quite as important as that in Tires, the axles, and the failure of the tires on two of the passenger engines and one of the consolidation engine tender wheels, and the looseness of many of the wheels upon their axles, at once decided the Railway Commissioners in withdrawing them from service, and authorising a series of tests in order to prove their suitability or otherwise for railway traffic. Before referring to these tests it is necessary to quote the opinion of competent authorities on the quality of the material considered suitable for tires. Sir Benjamin Baker,* probably the highest authority on this subject, tested half a dozen pairs of tires from as many leading makers at home and abroad, and submitted them to the following tests :■ — • 1. A steady bending pressure, to ascertain the elastic resistance of the tire to collapse. 2. Two successive blows from a weight falling 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 feet, to determine the endurance of the tires under shocks and blows. 3. A steady pulling stress to ascertain the ultimate tensile strength and elongation of samples of steel cut from the tires. The results of these tests are recorded in the following table :— Distiiigruishing^ letter and number. Approximate elastic resistance to collapse. Permanent set under 40 tons in inches. Ultimate tensile strength in tons per square inch. Percentage of elongation in length of 5 inches per cent. Extent of bending under falling weight. After 3rd blow, in inches. After 5th blow, in inches. After 8th blow, in inches. 38 tons not taken 38 tons not taken » 36 tons not taken 33 tons 36 tons not taken 29 tons 0'03 49-50 49'4.8 46-43 40-90 44-21 42 '48 42-51 37-36 38-85 38-01 34-67 32-25 140 14-0 18-6 23-6 8-0 50 19-6 5-8 24-4 25-0 14-5 120 2f 3 3 broke broke at 2ncl 3i 4 5i 7i- broke at 4tli broke 13i 13i 15i 15t ^ 005 '■l fj 0-07 d. d„ 0-18 0-05_ «i broke lOJ broke 111 ^2 20t /l A 0-60 24S The percentages of elongation on 2 inches may be approximately obtained from the above results by multiplying the percentages of elongation on 5 inches by 1-4. Sir Benjamin Baker states that cj and c^ have a dangerously low rate of elongation and that failure quickly resulted under the drop test. Also that d^ and d. are very untrustworthy as' shown bv the wide difference in ultimate strength and elongation of the two tires, and by the snapping of both with a slight blow under the drop test. He also considers Ci, cjj/i, and/j unsuitable for tires. The * See table of tests, page 312. '^Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol.. 67, pao-e SS3. VI The tensile strength of the steel in the twelve tires ranged from 82-25 to 495 tons per square inch, and the extension measured on 5 inches from 5 to 25 per cent., whilst under the " drop test," one tire might fail at the second blow of a weight of 1 ton falling 10 feet, and the next only do so at the twelfth blow from the increased height .of 30 feet, the respective bondings before fracture varying from no less than ig of an inch to 28 inches in the 3 feet tire. ^ Sir Benjamin Baker concludes that the strength of tire steel should probably be limited from 46 to 50 tons per square inch, but that the bending under the drop test is probably the best method of testing the endurance of the tires. Messrs. Vickers & Sons (Ltd.), well-known English makers, quote the following figures for testing their " Australia" brand tires : — 1. Drop test (for safety). — Any' tire in its natural state, as laid down from the rolls (without being annealed or otherwise treated), should deflect at least one-sixth of its inside diameter — except in the case of small tires (say) of less than 3 feet internal diameter, when a deflection of one-eighth of its diameter is sufficient — without showing any sign of fracture when placed under the drop in a running position on a solid foundation of at least 10 tons, and subjected to repeated blows from a 20-cwt. " Tup" falling from heights of 10 feet, 15 feet, 20 feet, 25 feet, and upwiards. 2. Tensile Test (for durability). — After the tire has stood the drop test as above a test piece i square inch area and 2-inch effective length, machined cold out of the solid portion, should (without any reheating or other manipulation) show a tensile strength of not less than 47 tons per square inch, with an elongation of not less thain 10 per cent, on 2 inches. Mr. Thow, M.I.C.E., Chief Mechanical Engineer, New South Wales Grovernment Eailways specifies as follows : — Specification for Tires. The tires are to be made of the best Siemens-Martin or open hearth cast-steel, produced from the best hematite ore. One additional tire in every fifty is to be provided free of cost, for testing. It will be selected indiscriminately from the bulk by the Inspecting Engineer's assistant, and will be taken to represent the average quality of the fifty tires in the lot from which it may be selected. The tire selected for test is to be placed in a vertical position without being annealed, reheated, or otherwise manipulated for test purposes, on a solid metal foundation of at least 10 tons, and subjected to repeated blows from a 1 ton tup falling from a height of 10, 15, 20, and 25 feet, or upwards.; audit must be flattened at least one-sixth of its diameter without showing any sign of fracture. In the case of small bogie tires of less than 3 feet external diameter a deflection equal to one-eighth of the diameter will be expected. Erom the tire thus treated test pieces of an original area of half a square inch (798 diameter) and an efEective length between datum points of 2 in. are to be machined cold, and tested in the presence of the Inspecting Engineer's assistant without reheating or other manipulation for purposes of the test. They must show a tensile strength which shall lie between 46 and 50 tons per square inch with an elongation of 15 per cent, and a contraction of area of 25 per cent. Eestjlis of testing Baldwin engine tires with blows from a falling weight. No. of Whether Ensine or Tender Wheel. Diameter of tire in feefand inches. Extent of hending under falling weight in inches. Eemarks. Engine. 1st blow. 2nd blow. 3vd blow. 4th blow. 452 Tender ft. in. 2 61 2 7 4 6i 2 6J 2 6i in. i . i " 4 i i in. Broke ... 1) in. Broke ... Each blow was from 5 ft. 448 let blow, 6 ft. ; 2nd blow, 10 ft. 456 1st blow, 5 ft. ; 2nd blow, 10 ft. Tender ■1st blow, 5 ft. ; 2nd blow, 10 ft. 416 1st blow, 5 ft. ; 2nd blow, 10 ft. Tension or Pulling Stress. Test Number. Description. Original Dimensions. Breadth. Thick- Strain in Pounds. Total. square inch. Strain in Tons. Per square inch, Liiiiit of Elasticity, Contracted Dimensions. Breadth. Thick- ness. Area'. Con- ti'action of Area per cent. Klonfya- tion per Remarks. T.T. 1 448 T.T. 2 .448 Results of testing specimens cut from steel tire of Tender-wheel of Engine No. 448, Tui-ned specimen. 075" diameter. 0-75" diameter. 0'4417S 56,000 0-4417859,000 126,759 133,550 56-5 59-6 30-2 30-3 Not meaaureable. 0-726 diametpr. 0-41.39 6-3 7-5 11-0 Elongations measured on 2' Elongations measured on 2" VTS VTS2 Results of testing Messrs. Vickers & Son's tire steel. 0-75" diameter. 0-75" diameter. 0-4417846,000 0-44178 47,000 104,124 106,387 46-5 47-4 26-2 25-2 0-606 diameter. 0-615 diameter. 0-2884 0-2968 .34-7 32-8 20 19 Elongation.^ measured on 2" Elongations measured on 2" Vll The results of the drop-test on the Baldwin engine tires, and the appearance of the various fractures, show that the material is too hard and unyielding, and possesses very slight endurance under the blows of the drop hammer. The results of the pulling test show that the tensile strength is too great, and the ductility too low and unequal ; also that the material is not uniform in quality, and consequently very likely to fracture. Comparing the results of the tests on the Baldwin tires with oi a^ hi h^ recorded by Sir Benjamin Baker, it will be seen that the Baldwin tires are most unsuitable for railway traffic. Professor Warren's Eeport on the strength and stability of the Glenlee Bridge, on the Southern Line, at 37 miles 75 chains. The Grlenlee viaduct consists of eleven spans of 21-foot centres, and two spans of 14-foot centres at ends. Description. Each span is constructed with three compound beams of ironbark timber resting on corbels oyer timber trellis piers. The compound beams consist of two 12 in. s 12 in. beams bolted together, with wedges 3 in. x 1\ in. in section between the beams and corbels at ends. Transverse timbers, 8 in. x 9 in., are fixed to the top of the compound beams, upon which are fixed the longitudinal rail-bea,rers, 12 in. x 7 in. in section. Two guard timbers are provided, each 6 in. x 6 in. section. The piers consist of five piles, 12 in. x 12 in. in section, driven a considerable distance into the ground ; a monkey weighing 1 ton appears to have been used for this purpose with a drop of 10 feet, the set produced by the last blow being quarter of an inch. The maximum height of the pier from ground to rail levels is 34 feet 9 inches, and the width at ground level 20 feet 7 inches. The three inner piles are carried up vertically to support the three compound beams, and the two outer piles have a batter of 1 in 6. The top headstock and bottom sill are each 12 x 12 inches in section, and the horizontal and diagonal bracing on each side of the piles are 12 x 6-inch section. The piles, headstock. sill, and bracing are securely bolted together. The inspection of this viaduct showed that it was constructed with good ironbark timber, and inspection, both the piles and superstructure were in good order. The maximum span of the compound beams is 2 1 feet 6 inches. The viaduct was tested with one of the heaviest Consolidation engines, weighing 97 tons, and the Testing, stress produced at the centre of the beams was equivalent to a uniformly-distributed load of 4 tons per lineal foot. Four tests were made, the first with the four driving wheels of the engine on the span, so as to produce the greatest eftect, and the deflection observed was '25 inch. The second test consisted in running the engine and Pullman car at full speed over the viaduct, and the deflection observed was "33 inch, or an increase due to the dynamic effect of the live load of about 30 per [cent. The third and fourth tests were made to ascertain the amount of the longitudinal and transverse oscillations during the passage of a train at full speed, and also with a full application of the brake on the bridge. The oscillations observed were exceedingly small, and in no case exceeded '02 inch. The dead load of the superstructure including rails, sleepers, transomes, and compound beams is Calculations of "4 ton per foot run of viaduct, producing a bending movement in the centre of the compound beams of * the'^supcr 23 foot-tons or 276 inch-tons. structure The bending movement in the centre of the compound beams produced by the loads concentrated by the four pairs of driving-wheels of the engine in their worst position is 2188 inch-tons, which, increased by 33 per cent, for dynamic, effect is 2823 inch-tons. The total bending movement in the centre due to live and dead loads is, therefore, 3099 inch-tons. The moment of resistance of the six single beams is about 10,000 inch-tons ; and since the strength of a compound beam with corbels arranged, as in the Grlen Lee viaduct, has been proved by the experi- ments made by the Eailway Bridges Inquiry Commission *to be at least 50 per cent, greater than the sum of the strengths of the two beams, we have the moment of resistance of the three compound beams, at least 15,000 inch-tons. The longitudinal rail bearers will add at least 10 per cent, to this moment of resistance, making a total of 16,500 inch-tons. Hence the factor of safety is at least 3,03tf O O. The factor of safety with the Baldwin passenger engines is at least 7. In order to ascertain the stability of the viaduct against wind pressure, calculations have been Calculations of made on the stability of the railway carriages themselves, with the result that 30 lb. per square foot of jjj^ ^^^uot""' surface exposed would just be on the point of overturning the carriage. Hence 30 lb. per square foot against wind has been taken over the viaduct and train. The weight of one span and one pier of the viaduct and jts^"^^'™'" load is 52,195 lb., acting with a leverage of 9'75 ft. Hence the moment of stability is 508,892 foot-lb. The moment of wind pressure is 301,455 foot-lb. Hence the factor of safety is 5||?^ = 1'69. The calculation takes no account pf the resistence which the piles would offer to overturning and drawing out of the ground, as there never can be any tension on the piles. The stability of the viaduct itself, without the train, with a wind pressure of 56 lb. per square foot of surface exposed, is greater than that shown by the foregoing calculations, and the factor of safety is about 2^. The maximum retarding force producing longitudinal stress on the viaduct when an emergency Longitudinal stop is made upon it, at a speed of 35 miles an hour, with a train weighing 300 tons, is well within the ^**^'"'y- longitudinal stability of the viaduct, and the observed longitudinal oscillations confirm the calculations made on this point. . Hence * Vide Koport of the Railway Bridges Inquiry Commission, pages 97 and 98. Till Conclusions. Hence the viaduct is strong enough to carry safely the heaviest loads which will pass over it, and it possesses sufficient stability to safely resist the greatest hurricane which is ever likely to occur in its neighbourhood. It is suggested that in future viaducts of this character, the spans may be increased to 24 or 25 feet, if thought desirable, and the rails laid directly upon transverse beams 10 x 6, spaced 16 inches centre to centre. The longitudinal rail bearers may be omitted with advantage, and wedges inserted between the beams which are capable of resisting the maximum horizontal shearing stress, with slightly larger bolts at the ends. Pkofessob Warren's Eeport on the strength of the Bridges on the New South Wales Bail ways when loaded with the heaviest Baldwin engine hauling its maximum load. In 1884 a Eoyal Commission was appointed to make a diligent and full inquiry into the stability of certain iron bridges constructed on the existing lines of railway, and also of the timber approaches to the bridge over the Murrumbidgee Eiver at Wagga "Wagga. The bridges investigated by the above Commission will be first considered in this report with regard to their capacity to carry safely the recently imported Baldwin engines, and the engines manufactured by Messrs. Beyer and Peacock, of Manchester, England. In the appendices attached to the report of the Railway Bridges Commission on the strength of the various bridges will be found complete detailed calculations and stress diagrams, showing the strength of these bridges when loaded with the heaviest engines which existed at that time, and it is only necessary, in this report, to refer to the capacity of these bridges to carry one of the heaviest Baldwin engines when hauling its maximum load. The calculations show that the Penrith, Menangle, Bathurst, "Wellington, and Aberdeen Bridges are subjected to smaller stresses in the main girders when loaded with the Baldwin engine train than those recorded in the report of the Eailway Bridges Inquiry Commission, and smaller than would be the case with two-coupled engines hauling the same load as one Baldwin engine. The cross girders of all the bridges are, 'however, subjected to slightly greater stresses with the Baldwin engines. These bridges need not therefore be further referred to, as the conclusions arrived at, and the recommendations made with regard to them, apply withoiit modiiication to the conditions existing with the present traffic. Such bridges as those over the Parramatta Eiver on the Northern line, the Dubbo, and George's Eiver Bridges, are fully up to the strength necessary to carry the increased engine and train loads which are ever likely to pass over them. They are the best designed bridges on the New South "Wales Eailways. The bridges over the Solitary Creek on the "Western line, and the "WoUondilly Bridges on the Southern line, are nearly all constructed with spans of 60 feet, and they consequently receive their maximum stress when the loads concentrated by the wheels of one engine pass over them. These bridges have now to carry loads fully 25 per cent, greater than those for which they were tested by the Eailway Bridges Inquiry Commission, and the calculations appended to their report show that the "WoUondilly Bridges were stressed up to 5'4 tons per square inch in tension, also that the Solitary Creek Bridges were stressed up to 6'75 tons per square inch in tension. The joints in the flange plates of the WoUondilly Bridges are inferior to those over the Solitary Creek, so that the actual strength of these bridges may be safely taken as approximately equal. Calculations on the strength of these bridges when loaded with the Baldwin engine train show that in the case of the Solitary Creek the tensile stress in the bottom flanges is nearly 9 tons per square inch, which result was corroborated by the evidence of Mr. H. Deane, M.I.C.E., Engineer-in- Chief for Eailway Construction. The experiment on the fatigue of iron when subjected to repeated loads made by Herr "Wohler and Professor Spangenberg, and recently confirmed by Professor Bauschinger, of Munich, show that the ultimate breaking load of such iron as that used in the construction of these bridges is about 15 tons per square inch, although the statical strength may have been from 21 to 22 tons per square inch. The ultimate factor of safety is, therefore, only 1'6. Such a small factor of safety is con- siderably below what is considered safe for a railway bridge. The Board of Trade regulations limit the intensity of working stress in tension to 5 tons per square inch, and experienced bridge designers would adopt even a smaller working stress than this in such bridges as the Solitary Creek, where the ratio of the maximum to the minimum stress is as 1 to 0.27. It is necessary to point out that the Eailway Com- missioners appear to have fully realized the necessity of strengthening these bridges, and the methods explained by Mr. Eoxlee in his evidence would, if adopted, render them perfectly safe to carry the maximum loads which pass over them. The timber approaches to the bridge over the Murrumbidgee at "Wagga consist of openings of 29 feet 6 inches span frqm centre to centre. "With the wheel loads concentrated by the recently imported consolidation engines, calculations show a factor of safety of about 4, which is not sufficient for an old viaduct like that at Wagga Wagga, although it is probably sufficient for a new viaduct constructed with the best ironbark timber. The Baldwin passenger engine or the Beyer and Peacock engine would produce smaller stresses than the consolidation engine, and there would result a correspondingly higher factor of safety. In this case, also, it is satisfactory to note that the Eailway Commissioners recognize the necessity of providing stronger timber structures to carry the increased weight of locomotive engines, as illustrated in the case of the Grlen Lee viaduct, which is the subject of a special report. Mr. Deane also has designed stronger types of timber viaducts. With regard to the bridges built since the Eeport of the Eailway Bridges Inquiry Commission and before the Commissioners took office the following remarks are necessarily confined to the Warren G-irder Bridges between Parramatta and Penrith, as the writer has not investigated the strength of the other bridges. The IX The strength of the Warren G-irder Bridges referred to is fully considered in a report ordered to be printed by the Legislative Assembly, November 1, 1888.* These bridges are constructed with spans of 42 feet, and like the Solitary Creek and WoUondilly Bridges they receive their maximum stresses when one of the heaviest engines passes over them. In the calculations appended to the report referred to it will be seen that the maximum stress produced with the heaviest engines which were in use at that time occurs in the end lattice bars, and was 4'3 tons per square inch in tension, the maximum tensile stress in the bottom flanges was 3'82 tons per square inch. There are several defects in design which are considered in the report, which reduce the strength of these bridges below that which would be inferred by the figures quoted. These stresses are increased by at least 25 per cent, with the Baldwin engines, and a careful consideration of the calculations will show that they are over-stressed by this amount. It is necessary, therefore, to examine these bridges from time to time in order to ascertain if the increased stresses develop weaknesses at any part. They should also be carefully tested with one of the Baldwin consolidation engines, and the deflections compared with those recorded on page 8 of the report referred to. With regard to the various bridges and viaducts built since the Railway Commissioners took office, the calculations and the results of testing these bridges by Mr. Foxlee which are appended to this report show that they are fully up to the standard of strength necessary to carry safely the heaviest engines which pass over them. New South Wales Government Eailways, Sydney, 26 April, 1892. Herewith I beg to enclose list of bridges constructed under the linos since the Eailway Commis- sioners took office. In calculating the stresses the heaviest Baldwin engines have been dealt with. With regard to Professor Warren's inquiry, as to the strengthening of Penrith Bridge, the recommendation of the Koyal Commission upon Railway Bridges, which sat in 1884, to cut out' the T-inch rivets connecting the webs to the booms for a length of 40 feet from each abutment, and substituting 1-inch rivets has not been carried out, owing to the difficulty of doing the work satisfactorily, in consequence of the smallness of the cells in the top and bottom booms, which renders it next to impos- sible to hold up the rivets. This is recognised by the report itself. (See pages 92 and 93.) - 3' 0" ~? l^""" T 4" -fj ./[ i-inch rivets proposed to be cut out and substituted by 1-inch rivets. But this recommendation, as well as that relating to the distribution of weight over the cross- girders, appears to refer to the line when duplicated ; at present it is a single road. With regard to the bridges over Solitary Creek and the Wollondilly, the strengthening of these is under consideration. In the meantime every precaution has been taken to ensure absolute security for the traffic. With regard to the testing of bridges and other structures : in accordance with the Commis- sioners' directions similar tests are invariably made to those that are made for the Board of Trade, in England, by their inspecting officers, prior to railways being authorised to be opened for traffic. WILLIAM T. POXLEE, To the Secretary for Eailways. Engineer-in-Chief. , List of Eridge 3 of 20-ft. span and over, constructed under the line by the Railway Commissioners. Span. 1 ■ ■s 1 Deck or Through Bridge. Material used in Actual working stresses in tons per square inch. Tests- Average Deflec- tion. Face Girder. Inner Girder. Cross Girders. Position of Bridge. Piers. .• t Remarks. Top. Bottom. Top. Bottom Top. Bottom. ft. in. 65 61 62 6 87 10 67 37 30 30 30 60 1 ] 1 3 1 1 1 1 2 6 Through 31 Deck , . Through Deck . . Through Decii .. Brick., Iron .. 3-96 3-86 3-92 4-00 8 '42 3-06 4-00 4-00 3-00 374 4-63 4-66 4-06 4-93 4-07 4-00 6-00 6-00 3-09 4-11 3-03 4 '06 3-96 4'-6l 4-01 4-68 4-80 4-66 b'-oi 6 -01 3-6 3-6 8-5 4-3 3-9 i-5 1-5 4 4 4 5 5 '2-9 2 '9 in. ■3 •2 ■2 •608 •326 "•is •22 ft. in. Cross girders, 8 apart. 8 „ Canterhury Road Long Cove Creek viaduct 8 „. 8 10 " 8 „ Rochester-street subway . . Continuous. Professor Warren's report on the bridges on duplicated line between Parramatta and Penrith, Timhe X Position of Bridge. m. oh. 35 25 Southern Line 35 60 „ 36 20 „ 37 34 „ 37 75 „ Menangle Approaches 43 53 Southern Line 46 25 „ 77 46 „ 77 78 „ 39 30 „ 39 18 Lapstone Hill Devn... 39 27 „ Wallis Creek East to West Maitland. Span. ft. in. 21 21 21 21 21 26 22 23 26 30 21 24 24 26 No. of Span. 7 4 6 8 11 62 1 6 6 3 9 3 3 4 Timber Bridges. • Declc or Through Bridge. Material used in Piers. Deck Ironbark Super- structure. Ironbark Factor of safety in Girders. Transverse Deflection. 7-5 7-5 7-5 7-5 9-57 7-1 6-4 60 70 8-0 7-5 7-92 7-92 7-0 Lateral Movement. •305 ■59 Length Movement, •07 Nil. L^'p side. Briclc Bridges. Position of Bridge. Span. No. of Spans. Rise of Arch. Tliicltness of Arch. M. ell. 17 45 Southern Line 19 4 20 26 20 30 22 40 23 3 23 20 26 33 26 73 29 18 ft. 20 20 20 20 25 24 24 30 30 24 an. 6 17 6 17 11 3 6 6 6 9 ft. in. 5 6 7 6 7 6 6 ft. in. 1 6 1 6 1 6 1 6 1 10^ 1 104 1 10-J ■2 3 2 3 1 105- All these bridges are built of brick work in cement. Note.— The intensity of the worliing stresses and the factors of safety are calculated for the greatest loading hy the Baldwin engines. W.T.T?., 26/4/92. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRY COMMISSION. MINUTES OF EYIDENOE. TUESBAY, 5 APBIL, 1892. \TIie Oommission met at 2'30 p.m., in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Offlce.] 33«s£nt:— r. E. EOGEES, Esq., Q.O., President. Pkofessoe WAEEBN, M.I.C.E., | ALEXANDEE BEOWN, Esq., J.P. Edward Miller G-ard Eddy, A.I.O.E., Chief Commissioner of Eailways, being in attendance, was inter- rogated by the Members of the Commission with regard to the allegations that the Baldwin locomo- ERRATA, Read " up a grade of 1-30, S;o,'' Read '■' And are these heavier engines running, &c." Read " The engine has to brake the whole train, &o." Read " It is running over the Bound Broolt Road, &c." Read " efficiency "/or " deficiency " Read " Philadelphia is east of Baltimore " Read " 1,H00 horse-power "/or " 1,100 horse-power " Read " 1,300 horse-power "/or "1,100 horse-power " Read " 20 lb. horse-power "/or " 20 tons horse-power " The last words should reacZ "8 tons lOcwt. on the driving-wheel" not "6 tons 16cwt." Remarks on Messrs. Kidd and Pollock's report apply as follows :— " Length of gradient 2* miles, and several curves of 16 chains radius to "gradient of 1-40 "; and " about two miles of 1-30, &c." to " gradient of 1-30." Mean speed on whole length of gradient should be "16-71 miles per hour on fourth trip," instead of " 15-17 miles per hour " ^ y *« k Q . 2484. Q. 5912. Q. 5938. Q. 5964. Q. 5950. Q. 5988. Q. 6146. Q. 6167. Q. 6172. Q. 6193. Q. 6394. Q. 6594. Q. 6608. Q. 8391. Read " 1890 Edition'' instead of " 90th edition, Railway Appliances." Read " May 11 " for " May 15 " SlDllliy arCaCrilllg to WliaU btWy lUa_y CSaj. illCJlI- LUC WVmiiXiaOl-CrU TTJXi U^ CUUit7-W ^AV^nri- ^TT«-,^.*- V.*V^WV x.**«»gx^„ definitely. 5 J. President.^ That is exactly what we desire to do, and it is the reason why we have sent for you ; — we do not know who made the allegations, and we want to get these people here so that we may hear all about tbem. It is said that these engines are defective, and it is the duty of such persons to show that the facts are as alleged, but since we do not know who made the charges in question we have sent for you with the hope that you will be able to tell us about them, and perhaps of others also ? With the exception of the name of Mi-. Hoyle I do not know that of any other gentleman. There have been letters in the newspapers making charges against the engines, but I have not seen any with names attached to them. I remember one letter under the nom de plume of " Penrith" malting all sorts of charges, but on the other hand there have been letters from a number of people who have seen the performances of the engines, and benefited by them, speaking in quite an opposite strain. 6. Mr. Brown.'] So far as you are concerned there will be no obstacle placed in the way of the officers of the department coming forward to give evidence before the Commission ? Oh, certainly not. 7. Tou will give them every freedom so far as you are concerned ? Certainly ; every information we can give the Commission we shall be glad to give it. The only thing we would ask is that the scope of the inquiry be confined as much as possible to the matters which the Commission is directed to investigate. 8. President.] Tes; that is quite right. Are there any letters, contracts, or any correspondence with the Bald-yvin Engine Company, or whoever may be the manufacturers of the locomotives, showing the Commission what kind of engine was required? Oh, yes. 9. Is there any objection to the production of these ? We shall produce anything you may require after you may hear what the charges are. But first of all I think you must hear the charges. This Com- missionj I take it, is not charged vnth an explanation of, or inquiry into, the acts of the Commissioners with regard to the ordering of these locomotives, but simply to inquire into the question of the suitability or otherwise of the Baldwin engines for running upon our railways, and also as to their performing the work which they were expected to do. 6— A 10. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRY COMMISSION. MINUTES OF EYIDENOE, TUESDAY, 5 APBIL, 1892. \Tlie Commission met at 2'30 p.m., in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Office.] P. E. ROGEES, Esq., Q.C, President. Peopessoe WAEEEN, M.I.C.E., | ALEXANDER BEOWN, Esq., J.P. Edward Miller G-ard Eddy, A.I.C.E., Chief Commissioner of Eailways, being in attendance, was inter- rogated by the Members of the Commission with regard to the allegations that the Baldwin locomo- tives were defective and unsuitable to the permanent ways of the railways of New South Wales. 1. President.] Can you infotm us, Mr. Eddy, what are the charges which this Commission is authorised Mr. Eddy, to investigate ? I am quite at a loss. to know. The Eailway Commissioners are waiting to see who it is A.I.O.E. that is to make the charges against the Baldwin engines, and what the charges are. All we know is that /— ^-^--^>> Mr. Hoyle and other Members of Parliament have made all kinds of statements with regard to them, 5 April, 1892. and that these statements were made without any degree of responsibility, in the Legislative"!Assembly. So far as this inquiry is concerned we are waiting to see who will come forward and formulate distinct charges. 2. About what date were these statements made by Mr. Hoyle ? They were made I believe at the end of August or the beginning of September last year. I was out of the Colony at the time, but I can give the Commission copies of Hansard containing the debates, and also the minutes thereon drawn up by the Commissioners and forwarded to the Minister. \_Mr. Uddy then retired and nubsequently returned with copies of the Debates and minutes jn question.] S. Tou produce these papers ? Tes ; they are copies of the debate of the 20th August, 1891. What happened was this. The Minister of the day, Mr. Bruce Smith, forwarded to the Commissioners this speech by Mr. Hoyle, and certain notes thereon, and the Commissioners in reply forwarded the minutes {^produced'] to the Minister, dealing with each of the statements made by Mr. Hoyle. This speech is con- tained in Hansard in extenso. There are also other minutes attached to the paper as subsequently the Minister asked for some further information, and these minutes were then sent by the Commissioners in reply to their request. 4. Mr. Brown.] Since that time I understand these allegations have beea repeated ? Tes. No doubt you have seen in the Press at difEerent times that the Baldwin engines have been referred to in various terms. 5. Professor Warren.] Some people, I believe, have written letters, I do not know whether we have their names, but I have no doubt we can get them ? Tes. It is not for me to suggest to the Commission the course it should tsfee, but it appears to me that the proper methpd to adopt would be to to get the gentle- men who made these charges in the first place to repeat them before the Commission with a sense of respon- sibility attaching to what they may say. Then the Commission will be able to deal with these charges definitely. 5|. President.] That is exactly what we desire to do, and it is the reason why we have sent for you ; — we do not know who made the allegations, and we want to get these people here so that we may hear all' about them. It is said that these engines are defective, and it is the duty of sucli persons to show that the facts are as alleged, but since we do not know who made the charges in question we have sent for you with the hope that you will be able to tell us about them, and perhaps of others also ? With the exception of the name of Mr. Hoyle I do not know that of any other gentleman. There have been letters in the newspapers making charges against the engines, but I have not seen any with names attached to them. I remember one letter under the nom de plume of " Penrith" making all sorts of charges, but on the other hand there have been letters from a number of people who have seen the performances of the engines, and benefited by them, speaking in quite an opposite strain. 6. Mr. Brown.] So far as you are concerned there will be no obstacle placed in the way of the officers of the department coming forward to give evidence before the Commission ':' Oh, certainly not. 7. Tou will give them every freedom so far as you are concerned? Certainly; every information we can give the Commission we shall be glad to give it. The only thing we would ask is that the scope of the inquiry be confined as much as possible to the matters which the Commission is directed to investigate. 8. President.] Tes ; that is quite right. Are there any letters, contracts, or any correspondence with the Baldwin Engine Company, or whoever may be the manufacturers of the locomotives, showing the Commission what kind of engine was required? Oh, yes. 9. Is there any objection to the production of these ? We shall produce anything you may require after you may hear what the charges are. But first of all I think you must hear the charges. This Com- missioUi I take it, is not charged with an explanation of, or inquiry into, the acts of the Commissioners with regard to the ordering of these locomotives, but simply to inquire into the question of the suitability or otherwise of the Baldwin engines for running upon our railways, and also as to their performing the work which they were expected to do. 6— A 10. -i BALDWIN liOCOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENOE. ''a'/c'e' "'■ I.' '^^^^ ^^ exactly the point ; and I think that as to the work expected from them, it would be shown by ^.J^^,^^ ■what you ordered ? We shall be able to show you that, and also what they are doing to-day. 5 April, 1892. ^^^' ^^ want to see what were ordered, and also to ascertain whether the engines are doing the work ' expected of them according to the orders? We will give you copies of the correspondence bearing upon these points. 11. Mr. Brown.] Then I understand that the Railway Commissioners will furnish us with copies of the correspondence between it and the Baldwin Engine Company ? Yes. 12. President.'] And I take it tliat in the event of our wanting you we shall be able to secure your presence,_ or at least that during the sittings we shall be able to have one of the Commissioners present, if we desire to be enlightened on any point ? Certainly ; there is generally one in town. TUESDAY, 12 APBIL, 1892. \_The Commission met at 2 o'clock in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Office.] F. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.C, PrbsideinT. Phofessoe WAEREN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDEB BEOWN, Esq., J.P. 13. President.] I have received aletterf rem the agents of theBaldwin Engine Company, asking that they might be allowed to have a representative at this inquiry. By that I understand them to mean a legal represen- tative. I would now ask if there are any other applications of the same character. Am I to understand that there are not ? The members of the Commission wish it to be understood that they cannot accede to the application. So far, however, as we have any control over these proceedings, we shall permit the public to have free access to them, and the representatives of the Baldwin Company, or aiiyone else, can come here and listen to what is going on, and if they choose to do so send in any question they would like to have asked. Then, if it should be material to the issue, and within the scope of the inquiry, we shall in our discretion ask it from the witnesses. But to let counsel or solicitor or any advocate appear for each of the parties concerned or the different persons interested would, I think, be impracticable. In the first place I might refer to the enormous time it might take, next to the fact that this inquiry is in the interests of the public, its object being to find out, as set forth in our Com- mission, certain matters with regard to the Baldwin engines, and for that purpose we do not want anybody here who would cross-examine or anything of that kind. Therefore we think it better that no legal repre- sentatives of any kind whatever should appear. As I have stated, the Commissioners will be glad to put auy questions which may be submitted to them, and which they think fit to be asked. 14. Mr. Eddy.] Do your remarks, sir, apply to the Railway Commissioners ? 15. President.] Tes, to everyone concerned in this inquiry. The Railway Commissioners may hear the evidence, and may afterwards make any statement they wish. Of course we could not allow the Railway Commissioners to be represented unless we allowed other persons also fo be represented. 16. Mr. Uddy.] There were applications, we understood, from outside parties. The Railway Com- missioners are here practically on their trial, and we do not associate ourselves with outside parties in this matter. 17. President.] I cannot accept the view that the Railway Commissioners are here upon their trial. Our Commission is as follows : — [The Commission was here read.] Every opportunity will be given to the Railway Commissioners to say what they may desire, and to explain and defend in everyway their position with regard to the Baldwin engines, to show what was expected of these engines, and what services they have rendered ; but we cannot see that they should be allowed to be represented either by counsel or solicitor who might perhaps want to cross-examine witnesses. Our endeavour will be to find out what are thp facts with regard to the allegations that may be made as to these locomotive engines being defective and unsuitable, and not rendering the service that was expected from them. If any qUe|iions are suggested to us we shall be only too glad to put them. So far as this Commission is concerned we wish it fo be as open as passible both with regard to the legal advisers of the Railway Commissioners and to anyone else who may come here to listen to its proceedings, but we cannot allow them to take part in the inquiry. 18. Mr. Soyle.] Mr. President, I sljould like to ask if you have decided whether you wOl allow any barrister or legal gentleman to sit by the side of the Railway Commissioners. I am here as the person who made the speech in Parliament. I have no legal adviser or anything of that kind. As the onus of proof will rest upon me, I do not think it would be fair for a barrister to sit by the side of the Railway Commissioners and advise them of such questions as his legal knowledge might suggest. 19. Mr. Eddy.] I think the Railway Commissioners stand in a very different position from that of any other persons present. Distinct and deliberate charges have been made against us, and I myself do not profess to be trained to deal with witnesses giving evidence of the nature which will perhaps be produced here ; therefore I tkink that in ordinary justice we should be permitted to place ourselves in theTiands of persons skilled in eliciting facts from hostile witnesses. We have not gone out of our way to make charges, therefore we do not ask for any protection on our own account and with regard to our own actions, but we do think we are entitled to protection against persons who have deliberately and with malice aforethought made charges against us. That is the position in which we stand. 20. President ll I do not think that at present at all events, Mr. Eddy, you should say that charges have been made against the Railway Commissioners with malice aforethought. As to your not being represented by legal advisers, I think you may well leave that to us in the case of witnesses whose evidence may be of the kind you point out. Ton may safely leave the Commission to deal with witnesses whose evidence may be of the character you anticipate. The Commission is constituted of gentlemen of common sense to whom I think you may safely leave such matters. I cannot help who may sit at the table. If Mr. Eddy has any friend here who may suggest questions to him, whether he is a lawyer or npt, I cannot help that, nor do I understand that any danger is to be feared from that. I cannoi prevent anyone from sitting at the table so long as he behaves himself. 21. Mr. Soyle.] I presume I may question Mr. Eddy and the witnesses I shall call ? 22. Mr. ^ddy.] I am satisfied, Mr. President. Ton may, perhaps, later on think fit to review your decision in this matter. 23. BALDWIlir LOCOirOTIVES ISTQTJIJtT COMHriSSrON — ¥TNUTE3 OP ETTDENCE. .1 23. President.'] I do not think so. Personally I would rather let eyerybody cQncerne4 appear or be represented — it would take a great deal of responsibility ofi: my shoulders ; but I do not think it was intended that in an inquiry of this kind there should be counsel present to cross-examine the witnesses. We want to find out the truth, and I do not know that that would be the best way of getting at it. I thought when I received this Commission that there might be applications from the Eailway Commissioners and Mr. Hoyle to be represented by counsel, and, therefore, I have not adopted this course without taking it into full consideration. Henry Clement Hoyle, being sworn, said : — 24. Previous to giving any evidence, I desire to make an explanation to the Commission, and also to make Mr. Hoyle, a statement. In the first place, I desire to say that in the speech I delivered, and which is recorded in ^^^ Spmsard, I made no charges against any persons. I was particularly anxious, in consequence of certain 10 7 -1^92 25. President.'] Are yougiving this as evidence, or is ityour opening speech ? Iwishto make a statement first. 26. You are now sworn to appear before us to give evidence ; — do you make this statement as part of that evidence ? Tes ; I will make it as part of my evidence . In making the speech referred to I spoke from a pure desire to do my duty as a public man. From a long experience of fifteen years in the Eailway Department of the country, and from a close study of all that has been going on in the railway system here, and from what I have read of the railway systems in otheir parts of the world, I was convinced that a certain order had been sent out of the Colony, the result of which was the importation of certain loco- motives, known as the Baldwin locomotives. When those locomotives came here they were decidedly defective. They had material in them, the use of which was an absolute danger to the lives of the travelling public. Prom my knowledge of what had jiassed in the railway service of this Colony, and from my reading with regard to the railway systems of other countries, I knew that it was a special point in the manufacture of locomotives that the best and safest material should be put into them. Prom a personal examination of these engines when they arrived, I was convinced that the best material had not been used in their manufacture, but that on the other hand they contained in their construction material which was an absolute danger to the lives of the public who travelled in the trains drawn behind them. As a public man, and having had experience in this particular line of business, I considered that if I remained sUent in my place as one of the people's representatives, I should be doing wrong. Believing conscientiously that I was acting in the best interests of the people of the Colony, I felt that if I had kept silent I would have been a traitor to the trust imposed in me by those who had placed me in Parlia- ment. I was careful in my speech, to say that I made no charge against anyone, but that I believed some officer in the Eailway Department had been guilty of a gross blunder, and I desired that a full investigation should be held to find .out by whom the blunder had been committed, and to insure that he should be punished. This Commission is the result of my speech. I was so convinced of the propriety of the position I had taken up that I interviewed the present Premier and the Minister for Eailways since that, and urged the CTOvernment to appoint a Select Committee of the Legislative Assembly. That, however, was refused on the ground that it was thought better that a Commission, such as is now appointed, should investigate this matter. I received various refusals from the late administration, but since then the present (lo'vernineiit have come into joower, and I again repeated my request that this inquiry shoiild be held, since which the Eailway Commissioners themselves, in consequence of what has appeared in the Press, and certain statements which have been made from time to time, have also asked for an inquiry on this matter. That inquiry is now, I presume, in a fair way to be held. Now, Mr. President, I propose to lay my charges before you. Mr. Eddy, when he appeared before the Commission at the last meeting, said he did not know what these charges were, and that he wanted someone to come forward and make deliberate, specific charges against these locomotives, and that persons would come here and take upon themselves the responsibility of those charges. Well, I am here to make the charges, and to take the responsibility of them, and I make them from a pure and honest belief that I am doing what I am in the best interests of the people of this country. I do this from a sense of public duty, and not from any desire to cast imputations upon the Eailway Commissioners, or subject them to any unnecessary inconvenience. I have been very careful to avoid that since I have been in public life. Since it is desired that the charges should be distinctly formulated, I have drawn them up in order. The first charge I have to make is : — (1.) " That, in consequence of the extra width of the Baldwin passenger engines or their great length, the platforms on various parts of our lines have had to be altered." (2.) " That the Baldwin passenger engines are not required, and should not have been imported, as orders had already been sent out of the Colony for sufficient engines to meet all the require- ments of the Eailway Department, and that the money thus spent was therefore an unnecessary expenditure of public funds." 27. That is quite outside the scope of this inquiry. We are directed by our Commissions that the recently imported Baldwin engines are defective and unsuitable for the permanent-way. That is what we have to inquire into. We have nothing to do with whether these engines were an extraordinary order or not. What we have to consider is, these engines as ordered, are they defective or unsuitable or not ? I understood this Commission was to inquire into the charges I made in Parliament. 28. I know nothing about what took place in Parliament ; I am simply going on what our Commission says, but outside of that I cannot go. In this I think my colleagues agree with me ? My third charge is: — (3.) " That the safety of the draw-gear will be in danger if the Baldwin passenger engines or the Baldwin consolidation goods engine draw the loads that it is stated by the Eailway authorities they are intended to draw." I desire to make it clear that in my opinion if they haul the load they are brought here to draw, they will endanger the draw-gear of the rolling stock. 29. Mr. Uddy.] Mr. President — Am I to understand that [that charge is admitted, surely it has nothing to do with the question, it is altogether a matter of railway management. What is advanced is that we are putting motive power to our trains that they are not strong enough to bear, that has nothing to do with the locomotives, it is altogether a question of railway management, and one I think, the Commission has nothing to do with. I take it you do not propose to go into the question of the draw-gear in the carriages and waggons. This would open up the whole question of railway administration. 30. * BALDWIN I/OCOMOTITES INQTTIET COMMISSION — MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE. ^ IO>*'^^*' ^^' ^^' -^^y^^-l This is a fair question and contains a very serious charge. I say that these engines will '^' endanger the safety of the draw-gear, that is to say the safety of the public, and if the Baldwin engines , 12ADril'l892 ^^? g°iiigj''0 do the work they were brought here to do, and thereby endanger the lives of passengers, I ' ■ think this matter should be investigated. I say again that the loads these engines are going to draw will be dangerous to the draw-gear. I may refer the Commission by way of example to the Bathurst accident. That was caused by the draw-gear breaking, and the train breaking away from the engine, travelled back and came in collision with another passenger train. If these loads are put on tbem the safety of the gear would be endangered, and perhaps bring about a similar mishap to that referred to. 30g. Mr. Hdch/.l I say that that is a sensational statement. 31. Mr. Hoyle^ 1 ask your ruling, Mr. President, as to whether Mr. Eddy is permitted to insult me by referring to what I have said as a sensational statement. 32. President.'] Please confine yourselves to the bald bare question whether this charge which Mr. Hoyle seeks to make is within the scope of our inquiry. 32i. Mr. Eddy.]' I contend it is not. Tour Commission is to inquire into the defects, if any, of the Baldwin engines and their unsuitability for the permanent-way of the New South Wales Eailways, and also that the engines are not accomplishing the work they were expected to accomplish. This Commission has nothing to do with the strength of the draw-gear on our carriages. So far as the draw-gear is concerned, if it had broken, every passenger train is fitted with an automatic brake, and the result would be that the train would be brought to a stop. With regard to the goods stock, every weak draw-bar has been removed by the order of the Commissioners, and stronger draw-gear supplied. 33. President.] The question now is, not whether you can make the draw-gear perfect or not, but whether we can go into the question of draw-gear at all. 33^-. Mr. Uddy.'] I desire to point out to you that the draw-gear is no part whatever of the Baldwin engines, and your Commission deals with the engines themselves only, and also the permanent-way of the railways of the Colony. 34. President.] By a majority the Commission think that this charge had better be allowed. 35. Mr. Soyle.] My fourth charge. Mr. President is — (4.) "That there are engines already in use on our railway system that are as powerful as the Baldwin passenger engines, and therefore another type of engine has been added to our stock, thus increasing the already too many types of engines in existence." 36. Mr. Eddy.] I must again object. This charge (No. 3) opens up the whole question of railway management. 37. President.] It has been decided, and I cannot hear you any more. It has been decided by a majority of the Commission to admit the charge (3). 38. Mr. Soyle.] (Eepeated the fourth charge). It has been said in inspired paragraphs to the Press, that we had no engines here powerful enough to do anything like what these engines can do. I say that we have engines quite powerful enough for that purpose. 39. President.] That is entirely outside the scope of this inquiry ; — I understand you to say that the Commissioners have ordered something that is clearly unnecessary ; — the question is whether they have received what they ordered or not; whether these engines were necessary or not does not matter; — that can be no charge ? What I am doing is with a strong desire to help the Commission. My next charge is — (5) " That the Baldwin passenger engines and the Baldwin consolidation goods engines are faulty in design, and that certain parts — the axles of the bogies and tenders — were dangerous, .and gross neglect was shown by allowing the engines to run before the parts in question were removed." The sixth charge is — (6) " That in consequence of the great weight of these engines (the Baldwin passenger and consolidation) the safety of the permanent-way is likely to become endangered. Our standard rail being 71 lb. per yard, whereas the above-mentioned engines were designed for an 80 lb. rail." These are all the charges that I have to make, Mr. President. 40. Now I suppose you will go on and give evidence in support of these charges ? I would prefer persons being called by the Eailway Commissioners, bringing their evidence to rebut these charges first. 41. Mr. Eddy.] Certainly not. • 42. President!] Allegations have been made that these locomotives are defective, and those who make the allegations have to prove them, therefore you must go on and give evidence in support of your charges? Very well, I shall deal with them in the order I have stated. Now, Mr. President, my first charge is that in consequence of the extra width of the Baldwin passenger engines, or their great length, the platforms on various parts of our lines have had to be altered. I stated that ohese platforms had to be altered to allow these engines to pass. 43. Mr. Brown.] Have you yourself seen any of these platforms ? Tes, I wish to say that these plat- forms were altered, and a great deal of expense in connection with the alterations was unnecessary. 44. President!] If you can show that the platforms had to be altered because of the width or length of the Baldwin engines, that is the whole point. 45. Professor Warren.] Ton could do that by simply giving the dimensions ? In the first place I might state that after these engines came here the platforms were altered. No attempt was made to alter them until the Baldwin engines came to the country. When they came here, gangs of men were put on to do this work, and I am told that they worked night and day to get the platforms altfered to permit these engines to j)ass. 46. Mr. Brown.] Ton believe you say ? I can give you the numbers of the shop orders. They were 351 a. 352 a. 353 a. They were the orders issued by the Permanent Way Department. 47. Mr. Eddy.] The witness is speaking of what he has been told, or of what has appeared in the newspapers. Personally I know nothing of legal proceedings, but I thought that the rule was that a witness should speak of his own knowledge. 48. President!] I understand him to refer to certain orders that were given, and I presume they will presently be produced ? These platforms were altered, and this I saw with my own eyes. I saw the Newtown platform undergoing alteration, and also that at Grranville. These two I have seen myself, when the work was going on. , 49. What kind of alteration was it ? The brickwork was chipped away, and in the case of the Newtown station the coping was taken up and set back on to the platform, and the brickwork chipped away, to allow the BALDWIlf LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSIOJf — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. O the cylinder of the engine to clear the platform. This was done to meet the case of the Baldwin engines, ^''i^oyle, An engine was sent along the northern lines, with a plate bolted on to the buffer-stop — a beam across the ^.^j^^" front of the engine. A plate was bolted across this, and ran along the line as a. gauge, and wherever that ^2 April 1892 gauge struck the platform, it had to be altered. 50. Do you Imowthat ? I do not know it, but I can call evidence to show that it was so. 51. You must keep to the facts within your own knowledge. As to the statements you have heard, they will not be taken as evidence unless you substantiate them by the statements of someone who actually knows them ? However these platforms were altered. It has been said in the Press that the alteration was made because a certain carriage in which Mr. Eddy was travelling, on a tour of inspection, struck the platforms, and it was then found that the platforms were out of gauge, and orders were issued that they should be brought into uniformity. I speak to the best of my belief when I say that the platforms were not altered until the Baldwin engines came to the country. 52. Do I understand from that that you do not know whether they were altered on account of the Baldwin engines, or that they never were altered until the arrival of those engines ? They were altered after the arrival of the Baldwin engines. It was after the arrival of the engines that the order was given to alter the platforms of the suburban line. I cannot swear to how many were altered, but I can swear to the two I saw going on. The order that was given to alter these platforms was given at a time when orders had been issued for the quadruplication of the suburban line. If it is true, as asserted in the Press, that these platforms were altered to make them uniform, why were the platforms altered on the suburba.n line, when they had afterwards to be demolished, because every platform altered on the suburban line, with, perhaps, the exception of Granville, was afterwards pulled down. 53. 1 do not want to stop you, Mr. Hoyle, but only to point out to you the futility of the course you are taking. Tou can produce evidence to show the alterations of these platforms, but it does not necessarily show that because the platforms were altered after the Baldwin engines arrived, that consequently they were altered on account of them ; neither is it any argument that these platforms were, as you say, altered, the scheme for quadruplication being in force at the very time of such alteration. Tou may state the fact shortly, that the alterations did not take place until after the Baldwin engines came here, and that the alterations did take place, although the whole system of the suburban railway line was at that time undergoing a change ? Then I will state, as a fact, that these platforms were chipped and altered to the point where the quadruplication was going to he made, and that afterwards these alterations were des- troyed, in order to make room for the new system. 54. Professor Warren.'] "Would you kindly tell me the width of the platforms or the width for the cylinder to pass ? I cannot. 55. Do you not see that this could be settled at once by dimensions ? That is a matter I will deal with later on. I propose to bring evidence to show the dimensions of these engines, and also that these plat- forms were altered to suit them. I do not swear absolutely that the alterations I have referred to were made for this particular purpose ; but I swear that the platforms were altered, and since the locomotives came here, and it is yet to be proved that they were altered for these locomotives. 56. President.'] If there is no ground for these charges, the responsibility you undertake is not very great, since you are protected from any action in giving your evidence before this Commission, and if you throw this matter out as an insinuation, and it can be proved as Professor Warren states by dimensions, it appears to me that it should be so proved ? I have not power to make these measurements — I have not power to take them. I once wrote for permission to the Colonial Secretary to examine them, and he sent a letter to the Commissioners. They sent a reply stating that if I knew anything about defects in the engines they would cause inquiry to be made. One day, whilst I was in th^ works, I was asked by an officer by whose authority I was there, and I was told that Members of Parliament were not allowed to go into the wdrks. I had therefore no opportunity of making these measurements. 57. I desire to give you every latitude, but I do not think it is fair that you should make insinuations about things which can be absolutely proved ; they can be proved just as well as we can find out the exact measurement of this table by using a tape line ; — the Baldwin engines may be badly constructed, and if we consider them to be proved to be so, we shall at once state our opinion, but I shall not allow you any more than I would allow Mr. Eddy to insinuate a thing which is capable of being proved to demon- stration ? The next charge is that the safety of the draw-gear will be endangered by the Baldwin engines being used. We find, from a paper laid before Parliament containing correspondence respecting the establishment of locomotive works in the Colony, certain recommendations were made. We find Mr. Neild, one of the locomotive engineers, made certain recommendations in a letter to the Railway Commis- sioners. After examining certain figures that were submitted by a certain firm in England, who were prepared to establish these works, he went on to show what should be the weight of a standard train, [fie proceeded to quote from the correspondence in question.] 58. Mr. Brown.] Is this on the question that the Baldwin engines are defective ? What I want to show is that we have heard of a standard goods train, and my contention is that if we increased that weight we would endanger the safety of the traffic. 59. President^ You say among other things that the locomotives are unsuitable because they are so heavy. If that is so, cannot you call these gentleman to show that they are unsuitable on account of their weight. Surelv the correspondence you have read is no evidence. An inferior officer might make a report, and if it were thought correct it might be acted upon, but if not, it would probably be torn up ? He is still an officer in the place. 60. It does not follow that the Commissioners adopt his report. It would however be very strong for you if you could get a competent gentlemen to say that the engines were too heavy ? Then this is not admissable. 61. How can it be,because someone not here makes a report to the Commissioners, which report does not appear to have been admitted, you cannot regard that as evidence. Y"ou can surely get the gentleman himself to come here. 62. Professor Warren.] What is the maximum pull which the Baldwin engines can exert? I do not know. G3. Well there is the whole question ? It is not a question of what they can pull, it is a question of what they can pull without breaking the draw-gear. 64. But it seems to me we can settle this question in this way. We first find out the maximum pull exerted on the draw-gear in the ordinary work, and then whether the draw-gear is sufficient to resist the puU. That can be ascertained with absolute certainty ? Yes. 65. BALDWIM' LOCOMOTITBS IK'QTTIET COMMISSIOlT-^MIIftrTES OF ETIBEITCE. M.^. "' ®|- ■2'»'««»'<^««'*-] "We cannot take what someone has said. Call him, and if he proves it, well and good, ^ — J,_^,^^ -J-t he comes hete and makes a statement at variance with what he has written, the Commission can then 12 April, 1892. ^'^estioii him on it. 66. Mr. Brown.] I understand from you that the estimated weight that these engines are to draw would break the draw-gear ? The draw-gear which has been drawn by these engines has already broken. Draw-gear of additional strength has had to be procured. The draw-gear first supplied to these engines has been broken, and stronger draw-hooks have been supplied in their place. 67. Fresident.'] If a stronger engine, that is to say a more powerful one than hitherto used in the Colony, whether the Baldwin engines or not, were imported, would the draw-gear at present in use be necessarily suitable. Would not the draw-gear for a lighter engine be necesssarily unsuitable for a heavier engine. _ Would they not have to put in stronger draw-gear ? These engines were brought here to draw a certain load, and should have been equipped with draw-gear suiEcient. to draw that load. The diaw-gear sent by the people who provided the engines has been broken, and additionally strong gear has had to be supplied. Again, with regard to our goods traffic, to put on a greater load than is considered to be a safe one, whatever that would be, and I was going to quote what Mr. Neild said was a safe load, would be very dangerous. 68. Mr. Brown.] This is not evidence, this is all argument. 69. Professor Warren.] How many cases do you know of in which draw-gear has been broken ? I have not seen any broken, therefore I cannot enumerate the cases. That must come out from the reports kept by the Department — at least, so I understand. The witness I wish to call will be the Locomotive Superintendent at Penrith shops. I would call him to give evidence as to whether these things have or have not been broken, and with, this view I would like to ask the Commission to adjourn the inquiry this week, on account of the holidays. 70. Mr. Eddy.] We are prepared to place every officer and man at the disposal of the Commission without the delay of a day. We would rather not have the delay of an hour. Charges have been made against the Department and are injurious to it until this matter is settled. 71. Mr. Hoyte.] M.j fifth. charge, Mr. President, is that the Baldwin passenger engines and the Baldwin consolidation engines are faulty in design and contain parts, namely, the axles of the bogies and tenders, which were dangerous, and that gross neglect was shown by the Department in allowing these engines to run before the parts referred to were removed. I shall have to call witnesses to prove this, and I shall call them iiot from my side but from the officers of the Department, I desire to take no undue advantage of the Department, nor to put it to any inconvenience. No person directly in the Department has given me the information I have based these charges on. They are based on my own information and experience whilst in the service. I am not in league with any men of the Department. I say distinctly that the axles were defective, and I would like to produce the Australian Star 72. President.] What has the Australian Star got to do with it ? There was a report in the Australian Star of the 29th October, wherein it is stated that when one of these Baldwin engines was coming into the Sydney Station the axle of the engine broke, and had it not been for the cow-catcher, which is very heavy, pYobably the engine would have turned over. I do not know that, but I say the axle broke. 73. Do you yourself know of this accident ? I know it from the Australian Star, and from the fact that I believe the axle was in the office of the Department. 74s. I shall do anything I can so far as our power permits us to enable you to state your case, but I think your course would be to ask the Australian Star people from whom they got their information, and such person could then give his evidence, but we cannot receive here what ■ is stated in the papers. Most outrageous things sometimes appear in the papers. How can you think it is evidence — what appeared in some newspaper ? 75. Mr. Eddy.] We are quite prepared to admit that an axle did break, and we are prepared to admit that a number of the axles have been removed ; indeed, we have removed the whole of them at the cost of the Baldwin Engine Company. 76. Pt'esident.] Because such a thing appeared in the newspaper it is not consequently true, and cannot b& taken as evidence, unless you get the person who saw it to come here and prove it. On what date was this, Mr. Eddy ? 77. Mr'. Mayle.] It corresponds with the date in the paper. 78. Mr. Mddy.] Yes, I think so, the 29th October. It was arranged that every one of the bogie axles should bci ■vffthdrawn, and they were replaced with steel ones at the expense Of the Baldwin Engine Company. 79. Mr. HoyU.'j I desire to draw attention to this. That gross negligence was shown by the Department ill not ascertaining before that these bogie axles were not steel, they should have ascertained that before the accident took place. This axles, I believe, was attached to the engine drawing the Melbourne express train, it broke when the train was going at a slow rate, and broke on account of excessive heating during the jouriiey, and it was only by the interposition of Divine Providence that a great accident did not happen. 80. Mr'. Brown.] The Commissioners admit that — is that the only one that broke ? 81. Mr. Eddy.] That was the only one. We went into a most exhaustive test with regard to the iron of which the axles were made, and it was arranged in order to avoid the slightest risk to replace every one of the axles, and they were replaced at once, and temporarily the engines were put to goods work instead of being kept to passenger work. I would like you to understand that altogether three axles broke. 82. President (to witness). Ton say that this axle was very hot? ■ I do not know, but I can produce evidence from an American paper to show that the gentleman who was here in charge of these engines putting them together, wrote and admitted it, and he made a statement which was not true in that letter. 83. It is perfectly shocking to my limited legal sense that what was contained in an American paper should be regarded as evidence. I think on that point I would rather take any Australian paper than an American paper ? This was a- scientific paper. 84. I do not know about that, I can only go by the rules of evidence ? At all events the axles broke. I understand that is admitted, and having broken, I think it is evidence that they were dangerous. 85. President.] It is evidence that that particular axle was dangerous. 86. Professor Warren.] What about the other defects ? The piston head is excessive in weight, and it is wearing out the cylinder. By reason of the enormous weight also of the cross head and the connecting rod BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IHQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. ' rod the slides were worn, and since these engines have been here brass liners have been put into the Mr.Uojis, slides, thus creating new costs for repairs which are unjustifiable. The piston head has no relief. J^^^ Most of our engines have a bar coming through the end of the cylinder gland to carry the weight of the jgApril 1692 piston-head, and thus to prevent friction in the cylinder itself. These engines have no such bar to the ■ ' " piston. 87. Is not the piston-rod continued from the gland itself ? No, the connecting rods are not connected with the first wheel, they are coupled with the trailing or driving wheel. 88. Have you not got a drawing, a model, or a photograph? 89. Mr. Eddy.'] A number of plans have been prepared. 90. Mr. Hoyle.] I believe the principle of the engine to be good, and I believe the company could build engines just as well as any company in the world ; but I am complaining that by continual friction on these cylinders the piston would have to be renewed shortly. 91. Professor Warren.'] You mean the cylinders would have to be re-bored? Yes; and the axle-boxes are wearing into the boss of the wheel. The connecting-rod is of a very great length, and, consequently, very heavy. [Here a photograph was produced and the luitness pointed out the allied defect.] The wheels are made by a new process, and, in my opinion, they are dangerous ; they are stamped, and not forged, as in England. They are iron stamped under a new process. They are iron wheels with steel tyres, and the driving-wheel is exceedingly light. It has defects. 92. What do you mean by defects ? The fusion of the iron has not been carried out successfully, 93. Mr. Eddy.] What is the number of the engine you are speaking. about ? It was at Benrith I saw it ; I did not take the number of the engine. 94. I must ask some little regard to evidence being paid. All sorts of statements are being made about these wheels being defective. 1 ask for the number of the engine and it cannot be given. I tihink that in the interests of the public there should not be such rash statements made. If there is an engine let us know the number of it. 95. President.] Do you say that the defect is in the wheels of all the engines ? The passenger engines. 96. You say they have all that defect ? They have all the defects of being too light, through being made by this process. They are too light, and, therefore, dangerous and liable to collapse. 97. Mr. Eddy.] He says distinctly that the engine wheels show flaws, so that at any tima there may be a collapse, and an accident caused. I ask that the number of the engine be given, and that alarm should not be given to the public by a statement not capable of proof. 98. President.] How many engines are there ? 99. Mr. Eddy.] Twelve. 100. Mr. Brown?\ Any statements made upon this point may be refuted by you later on. We cannot refute unless we have some data to go upon. 101. President?\ Could it not be arranged that some of us could see these engines for ourselves? 102. Mr. Eddy I] They are all over the country between here and Dubbo and could not be stopped with- out creating great inconvenience. Some do not come to Penrith at all. 103. Professor JVarren.] Could you arrange for me to have a trip on one of these engines ? Certainly. 104. Professor Warren.'] You say, Mr. Hoyle, that the wheels are defective because they are made by a defective process. I want you to say what evidence you have of the defects of the wheels themselves ? I believe they are defective because made by this process. In some portions of the wheels there are flaws. 105. President.] Thatis to say in the one engine you have seen and of which you do not know the number ? No ; I did not see the number. 106. When did you see it ? Last Priday. 107. Was anyone with you ? No one was with me when I was examining it. 108. Would the stationmaster at Penrith know the number ? I presume the Locomotive Superintendent would. I left Sydney by the 1'30 train. I was due to arrive at 3 o'clock, and I left again by the 5'22 train. 109. Mr. Eddy.] Would you kindly get Mr. Iloyle to state whom he saw at the shed at Penrith ? Well I was talking to the foreman, his name is Howell, but he was not with me when I was looking at that engine. He gave me no information about it. 110. President.] Can you tell me whether there was more than one Baldwin engine there? Yes, there were one consolidation and two passenger engines there. 111. And had they these defects you speak of ? I had only time to examine one of the two passenger engines there. I found also the boss, which in my opinion is too light, had been bored larger so as to admit of the larger axle, and that a wrought-iron ring had been put on to strengthen the face of the boBS, which in my opinion was a thing never done before in any locomotive. It is a thing never done ; to shrink a wrought iron ring on to a boss. Again in the consolidation engine the wheel was wearing into the feed-cock, and I noticed in the engine that I looked at that the feed-cock was worn about from f to f of an inch, and if that defect is not remedied soon the cock will have to be taken away and replaced. 112. Is that very material ? Yes, very, if it became worn out whilst carrying you could not feed the boiler, consequently the engine would come to a stand still and become temporarily useless and have to be towed home to the shops again. Again the axle-box is wearing into the inside boss of the wheel and already a brass liner has been put in between the inside boss and the axle-box. 113. Professor Warren.] Do you mean sideways ? Yea. This boss has been worked into, and such a defect ought not to appear fpr many years, certainly not as soon as this. If the axle-box works into the boss, the axle will become loose and a fault like this is most serious indeed. I have explained the weight of the piston on the cylinder, and the weight of the cross head. I propose to call evidence to show that what I stifte is so. In the axle-box in question there was a play of -| of an inch. I will show the axles were loose and linings had to be put in place, also that the whole of the iron axles were taken out and renewed with steel axles. Whether the Baldwin Engine Company are replacing them I do not know, all I desire to show is that gross negligence was exhibited by the OfEcer-in-Charge, when he permitted iron to be used instead of steel: The axle should be of the very best quality of steel. It was gross negligence of this gentleman not to find out the fact. In the case of the express train from Melbourne 114. Mr. Eddy.] May I ask Mr. Hoyle when one of the axles broke on one of the exnress trains from Melbourne ? I believe it was about the 29th October. 115. We are getting a number of statements that have no truth in them. 116. I must ask you to protect me against these insults. 117. 8 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIllY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDENCE. ^'m.P?' V"^' ■^*'***^*'*'-] '^^^ impression left on my mind was that this was the case referred to in i\& Australian ^..^^jj^^^ ^tar, but you do not know as a fact the axle did break ; you did not see it ? To the best of my belief 12 April, 1892 ^* ^^^ °^ *^® engine attached to an express train; it may have been an express train coming from the south. 118. Mr. Eddy^ Do I understand that the axle broke with the train with the Melbourne to Sydney express ? 119. President.'] Do you as a matter of fact state that the axle broke with the express train from Melbourne ? I have been given to understand that it was an express train. 120. Whatever one does in this country, should he occupy a prominent position, will be open to comment ; but it is, I think, very wrong that all the sweepings of the street should be collected here. Tou must get the persons who saw these things ? Then we must get the reporter of the Australian Star who wrote the report. 121. I did not understand that the Australian Star stated that the axle of the train belonged to the express from Melbourne ? 122. Mr. JEddi/.] It was the axle of the train running into the Sydney Station, but not the Melbourne to Sydney express ; that I admit ? The fact remains that the axle did break whilst the engine was attached to the train. Again, the tubes in the boiler of the engine I saw were working loose, and that, I under- stand, was on accountof the length of the boiler, and I will call evidence to show that. I propose to call evidence to show that these tubes have been decidedly defective since the engines came here. 123. President.] I am giving you all sorts of latitude, Mr. Hoyle. Every question you want asked will be put, but you are not giving evidence and should not make these statements ? Considering that I made this speech in Parliament, I am taking this course for the guidance of the Commission in order to enable them to make a full and searching inquiry. 124. "We will call any witness you want to substantiate these charges, but you do not substantiate them by saying that you have been told this or that ? Also new reversing gear has been supplied to these engines. 125. Do you know that ? I know that new reversing gear has been made, and I will call evidence to show that the work is going on to make new reversing gear for these engines. In my charges I have said these engines will not do the work they are calculated to do, and I propose to bring evidence to show that the weight on the wheels is not sufficient to secure adhesion on the rails. The cylinder is made to draw a certain load, and if the wheels under the cylinder are not sufficiently heavy they cannot draw the load on the rails. 126. Professor Warren.] That is a question as to the tractive force and the adhesion ; — we can get all that ? I wish to explain to the other members of the Commission what I meant by this. It is this way, there must be a certain adhesion on the rails to make the wheels grip. Now these wheels have been made lighter than they should have been. They were made lighter in America, to suit our lines. That I believe has been admitted in the public Press. 127. I submit that admissions in the public Press have nothing whatever to do with this matter, the engines are perfect in their design as the members of the Board will be able to see. Tou will have evidence to show that the engines are well proportioned. 128.. The cylinder has greater power than the weight on the wheels will enable them to grip the rails. 129. Professor Warren^ Do you mean that there is a great excess in the cylinder power ? I say that the engines are not sufficiently weighty in accordance with the rule for the power of the cylinder. The last charge I have to make is that, in consequence of the great weight of these engines the permanent-way is likely to be unsafe. Our standard of weight is only 71 lb., and if what I have said were brought about, the permanent- way would have to be relaid. That would be a source of great expenditure and one which ought not to be incurred. {Presenting a hooTc.] This is what is popularly known as the " Engineer's Prayer Book " — Molesworth's pocket-book of engineering formulas. One of these engines is weighted on the left side on the leading bogie-wheel 3 tons 9 cwt. 3 qrs., on the trailing bogie-wheel 3 tons 7 cwt. 3 qrs., on the leading coupling-wheel 7 tons 6 cwt., on the driving-wheel 8 tons, on the trailing bo^ie- wheel 7 tons 14 cwt. 2 qrs., making a total of 29 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. On the right-hand side the weight of the leading bogie-wheel is 3 tons 10 cwt., of the trailing bogie-wheel 3 tons 11 cwt. 3 qrs., the leading coupling-wheel 7 tons 4 cwt., on the driving-wheel 7 tons 9 cwt., the trailing-wheel 7 tons 4 cwt., making a total of 28 tons 18 cwt. and 3 qrs., hence leaving a difference between the two sides of 9 cwt. 130. May I ask where this information comes from, and what reliability is to be attached to these figures ? 131. It does not matter we can check them. 132. Tou cannot correct a thing which is not in your possession. 133. How did you get the data for your calculations ? 134. I got them by the power of the cylinder. 135. That has nothing to do with the weight of the engines ; — I would like to know how Mr. Hoyle got these figures ? I must decline to say where I got them. 136. I think I must press this question, I{desired some information from the locomotive engineer the other day and I was informed the papers had disappeared from his office ; — I would like to know how Mr. Hoyle got this information ? I hope the Chief Commissioner does not impute that I have stolen the papers. 137. President.] No of course not, I think it is a pity such a thing should be said. Do you decline to sajr where you got this information ? I want to say this that there is a recognised rule defining the weight that should be on the driving-wheels in order to make them grip, and if we make these engines the weight that their cylinders are calculated for then we will depart from the rule of all engineers as to the stability of the line required. According to all the rules of engineering the weight at present is not sufficient, but if we make it sufficient then the permanent way will be in danger. 138. Now where do you get these weights from. Where is the evidence that these are reliable data, how do I know that your figures are right ? I would not press the matter, but I say that if the engine's are weighted in a proper manner they should be quite equal to these weights. 139. Tou should have some one here to say "I have seen these engines and I have calculated the proper weights". Eor example, if you wanted to bring as evidence something I had said it would not do to say " I saw Mr. Eogers and he told me so", but I should have to come into the box and give evidence, on the same reasoning you cannot say these are the weights, because some one told me they were. I do not think you understand me. 140. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION— MIITUTES OF ETIDEKCE. 9 140. I believe you have some data from persons whose names you cannot give — you cannot make use of ^""i^y'*' that data ? All I wanted to show was that if the engines were loaded up to the power of their cylinder ^.^_j^J_^ they would be too weighty for our permanent-way. laApril 1892. 141. Mr. Eddy:\ How could anything which is said be of value unless, the weight of the engines were put ' before you to demonstrate that it is too heavy for the line. This is an attack upon the Department and the evidence should be produced before the' Commission to justify the statements made. It is impossible for me to say what the weight is, unless they are weighed. I say that if these engines are weighted up to the power of their cylinder to the amount they ought to carry they would be too heavy for our road, if they are not weighted up to that power then they have notsufficientweight to grip the rails. 142. Professor Warren.'] In order to settle this we shall require drawings of the engines with the weights of the leading driving and trailing wheels, then it can be seen whether the cylinder power is in excess of the adhesion? Yes, that will be settled by experts ; I presume the Commissioner will make certain inquiries ; that they will order these engines to be weighed, and then ascertain if what I have stated is true, and if experts think them to be correct. I say that according to the rules of all engineers these engines if properly weighted would be too heavy for the permanent-way, and will necessitate its being relaid. I say it is for the Commission to get these weights and then call experts to say whether they are too heavy or not. 143. Fresident.'] I do not understand that because a man makes a charge it therefore lies on the other side to refute it. There must be something in support of that charge. I am not sufficiently an engineer to know whether, from the size of the cylinders, wheels, &c., a presumption is raised against these engines; but unless the mere fact does arise from such presumption, we have nothing to show that the engines are bad. I am not aware that any privilege is given to any man to make a charge and not support it, otherwise a man might come to me and say, " Tou are guilty of murder ; prove you are not." 144. Professor Warren.'] Will you give us a list of the witnesses ? Yes ; I propose to call the Metro- politan Divisional Engineer (Mr. D. C. Simpson) relative to the widening of the platforms, the Locomotive Superintendent at Penrith, relative to the breaking of the coupling. 145. Mr. lEddy.] You mean Mr. Park, locomotive foreman ; — you know who is in charge there ? I do not. I know that Mr. Park is in the service, but in what part I could not say. I will call then Mr. H. H. Park, also Mr. Thow, relative to the bogie axles breaking, to prove these axles did break. 146. Would it not do if we admitted that the bogie axles did break, and that they were replaced by the Baldwin Engine Company. 147. President.] Do you want Mr. Thow for anything else ? Yes. 148. I do not want to limit either side in this matter, but if both agree to admit a certain thing, then I presume it will be unnecessary to call evidence as to it ? I would also- like to call Mr. D. H. Neale on the question of the Baldwin engines, the breaking of the axles, and relative to the charge of neglect with reference to the material of the axle. I would also like to ask Mr. George Cowdery, late Engineer for Existing Lines, some questions. 149. Mr. Uddy.] Are these witnesses to be called as Mr. Hoyle's, and be cross-examined ? President : — They will be examined by us. Mr. Hoyle will, I have no doubt, suggest to the Commission what ques- tions he wishes to be asked, and you will also be able to ask what questions you desire through the Commission. 150. I will also call Mr. Thomas Midelton, the late Locomotive Engineer. 151. President (to Mr. Eddy).] Do you wish to ask Mr. Hoyle any questions ? I would like you to ask Mr. Hoyle what his experience of railway and locomotive work is. 152. What is your experience of locomotive engines, Mr. Hoyle ? My experience is as follows : — Eirst of all I was in the service of the Department for fifteen years as a mechanic, and had opportunities of observing the various locomotives in the Department, and also opportunities of reading upon this subject. 153. Mr. Eddy.] Were you in the erection shop ? No ; I was in the inter-locking department. 154. President.] Were you engaged in the locomotive department in any shape or form ? No ; but the locomotive shops and our shops were practically together. Practically we worked in the same workshops. It was simply the name that distinguished the class of work. 155. I would like to ask the witness why he did not respond to the invitation of the Commissioners to give them the information he said he had in his possession. 156. President.] 1 do not say that you are not entitled to ask this, but I do not think it is of very much weight. Suppose Mr. Hoyle had furnished all this information, perhaps he might have rendered himself liable to some proceeding, 157. Not at all. Mr. Hoyle has said that he would have been untrue to his trust if he had not acted immediately he found there was some defect in these engines. We invited Mr. Hoyle on the 3rd of August, to indicate to us any defects he might know of, so that we also might be true to our trust. 158. President (to Mr. Hoyle.)] Did you get a copy of that letter ? Yes ; I got a copy of that letter, and the reason I did not give the information was because I felt I had been so discourteously treated when I asked for permission through the Colonial Secretary to go through the workshops ; the Commissioners would not grant me permission ; I therefore thought I had been treated discourteously. 159. Did you write a letter dated the 29th July, stating the engines were defective, of which this is a copy [eoj)y produced] ? Yes ; I have no doubt that is the copy. 160. How many engines were there at work ? If I remember rightly there were very few — I cannot say how many. It was from certain things I then heard I desired to examine these engines. I had heard that any Member of Parliament who went through the workshops, would be ordered ofE, and that was the reason I wrote. 161. Mr. Uddy.] Although the engines were due on that date, you are not prepared to state that one engine was at work ? I am not prepared to say whether there were any engines working then or not. 162. It has been said that the attack on the Department was made in the Legislative Assembly on the 20th August, 1891 ; — will Mr. Hoyle tell me whether all the engines were at work at that time ? I believe they were, and you will see that Mr. Scott, the Member for Newcastle, made certain charges against the engines at that time. He said that one of the engines had he'en lifted three times. 103. President.] Do you call him as a witness ? No. I do not know whether what he says is hearsay or not ; but we might call the Superintendent at Newcastle. 164. Where do you say this charge was made ? In the Legislative Assembly. 6— B 165. -10 BAIDWIN LOCOMOTIVES HTQUIET COMMISSlblf — MINUTES OF ETIDENOE. M.pf ^^^- '^^®? i* is in Hansard ;— is tbis the speech :— __A__^ " I rise to contribute my quota to the condemnation of the railway engines referred to by the honorable 1? April,l892. Member for Eedfern. It is not my intention to take up the time of the House by referring in detail to the defective parts of the engines ; but I wish to tell the Grovernment that if they should decide to appoint a Select Comfliittee, they will find the honorable Member for Eedfern, Mr. Hoyle, has not painted the picture too black. The engine that was sent from Sydney north was lifted four times after she left Sydney until she came back. She was lifted, I believe, at 'G-osf ord, she was lifted at Newcastle, at Singleton, and at Werris Creek, and she was lifted again at Newcastle on the home- ward journey. She came back to Newcastle with one of the eccentrics disconnected, the motion link was bent, and a new pin had to be put in. The honorable Member for Eedfern forgot to refer to the defective part of the link motion, and to state that the rocking shaft had to be taken of£ the engine, and p.ut into the lathe. If a Committee were appointed practical men could prove to the satisfaction of some of the keenest experts in the country that the material in these engines is not what it ought to be." 166. I suppose you know it is not unusual for hot boxes to occur on the railways ;-r-in fact hundreds occur every week ? Tes ; I am quite aware of that ; but I am not aware that the axles have been caused to break by that. 167. President.'] Tou are referring to the case of the axle breaking ; did the heating referred to cause the axle to break upon this journey to Newcastle ? I did not refer to that. It was a remark of Mr. Scott's. 168. "With regard to the statement made by Mr. Scott, are you in a position to state that the incidents he refers to were the cause of the axle [breaking ? I know nothing about that particular incident. Mr. Scott might know. 169. Mr. Uddi/.l Perhaps you would not be surprised to hear that on the day you made the speech in Parliament, on the 20th August, that several of the engines had not been placed on the line. 170. Fresident.'] At the time you made the speech in Parliament were the whole of the engines on the line ? No ; I believe they were not. Some of the engines were, but some of the others were not, I believe. I cannot say how many were. 171. Mr. Uddt/.'] The charges the Commission are to inquire into were made on the 20th August. It appears to me me that a great many of the statements made by Mr. Hoyle had reference to what he dis- covered last Friday at Penrith. Has he been trying to find defects in these engines recently so as to endeavour to support his original charges ? 172. Fresident.'] I do not think I can allow that question, Mr. Eddy ? I do not press it. 173. Mr. Eddy.] "With regard to the alteration of the platforms you stated that orders were given for the work to be done and gangs of men put on day and night after the Baldwin engines had arrived, and that those orders were not in existence prior to the arrival of the BaldW^in engines. 174. President.] No ; I do not think he said that. No ; I did not say that. 175. All I understood was that, inasmuch as after the arrival of the Baldwin 'engines he discovered that the platforms were being altered, he inferred that the alteration was necessitated by the Baldwin engines. 176. "Would you kindly ask Mr. Hoyle to distinctly state what is his charge in that respect, because it- is very important that it should be clear and definite ? 177. Yes ; what is the specific charge you made about the platforms being altered, the bricks chipped away, and so on ? 178. That in consequence of the extra width of the Baldwin engines (passenger) or their great length (possibly on account of the oscillation) various parts of the platforms were altered, but I did not say that the orders were issued before or after the engines arrived. 179. Mr. Eddy.] You do say, however, that the alterations were made after the Baldwin engines arrived, but not that it was in consequence of the Baldwin engines being placed on the lines. 180. President.] Yes ; that is an inference of his, but he says that he does not know when the orders for the alterations were given. 181. Mr. Eddy.] I would like to have this quite clear. Does Mr. Hoyle distinctly say that had not the Baldwin engines been ordered by the Commissioners the alterations of the platforms that have been made would not have been made ? No ; I said nothing of the kind. Mr. Eddy must know that I said nothing of the kind. 182. I do not know, though I certainly understood that you wished it to be inferred that the fact that the platforms had been altered because of the length or the width of the engines. You did say, however, that you could not prove that it was so by other evidence that the fact that platforms were altered after the engines arrived here. 183. I said that I did not know when the orders were issued, but that I did know that the platforms were altered after the engines came here. 184. But no doubt you intended to convey the impression that the alterations had been made because of the extra width of the Baldwin engines. 185. President.] That at all events the platforms had been chipped to suit the dimensions of the Baldwin engines. 186. Mr. Soyle.] Quite so. 187. Mr. Eddy.] Then would you be surprised to hear that the Commissioners have been putting these defects in the platforms right ever since they came into office, and that the alterations to which you refer had nothing to do with the Baldwin engines. 188. President.] You can give substantive evidence of that later on, Mr. Eddy. 189. Mr. Eddy.] I would ask that Mr. Hoyle should be requested to state whether there are not and have not been on these lines for some years, engines as wide over the cylinders as the Baldwins ordered by the Commissioners ? I am not aware that that is so. Some engines carry their cylinders higher than others. If the cylinders of an engine are high they are less likely to come into contact with platforms than they would be if the cylinders are low. If an engine is carrying its cylinder low it would be much inore likely to strike the platform by reason of the shape of the platform itself, but that depends largely upon the position of the cylinders. 190. And in regard to vehicles, are you awa,re that before the Eailway Commissioners took office a vehicle was ordered to run on these lines that is wider even than the cab of a Baldwin engine. We are charged BALDWIN liOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCB. 11 charged distinctly, Mr. President, as I wish to make clear to you, that the engines have been ordered and Mr. Hoyle, that they are unsuitable to pass the structures of the railway. In railway work we have a structure of ^•■^• gauge, and we have a rolling stock gauge, and by attending to certain other principles we are allowed to i^T^'YTsqa make our rolling stock up to what should clear our structural gauge. Mr. Hoyle has charged us with ^^ ' * having engines put on the line that will not come within the structural gauge. 191. President.] I do not object to your question, Mr. Eddy. "What do you want to ask Mr. Hoyle ? 192. I would like to ask him whether the cab is wider than the cylinders are ; whether there is not a carriage running on the lines at this moment that is wider even than the cab of the Baldwin locomotives ? I do not know whether that is so or not, but it must be understood that the cab of a locomotive has no bearing upon the question of chipping of the platforms away. 193. Mr. JEddy.] The question in regard to the engines and cylinders dispose of the allegations in regard to the platforms. 194. President.'] Well, to your last answer, Mr. Eddy, Mr. Hoyle says that he does not know whether there is such a carriage or not, that is all the answer that is necessary. Then he goes on and gives some further evidence as explanatory to me, I suppose, but his answer to your question is, I do not know. Is not that so ? Tes. 195. Mr. Uddy.] In regard to the Baltimore and Ohio rails spoken of, you told the Commission that the locomotives as though they were confined to running between Baltimore and Ohio. Do you not know that engines of this width and of much greater weight are running in all directions in America ? I do not know that. . 196. It is so. 197. Mr. Soyle.] As a matter ot fact I can amend that answer. I did not know that engines of the weight of the passenger locomotives are running, but what I stated here was that that particular engine is running on the Baltimore and Ohio railway, and that it is running on an 80-lb. rail, and I make that statement upon the authority of the Railroad Gazette in which I saw the facts published. 198. Professor Warren.] The Railway Gazette of what date ? I will bring it to you to-morrow. 199. President.] Ton admit that you are aware that heavier engines do run in America, but you say that in that case the rails are heavier. 200. Mr. Uddy.] What is your authority for saying that the rails on the Baltimore and Ohio railroad are heavier than those used in this Colony ? It is stated in Pool's Manual, and in the description given of this particular engine in the Railroad Gazette, the rails are described as 80-lb. rails. 201. Would you be surprised, then, to hear that we have had it on authority from America that the Baltimore and Ohio rail is a 67-lb., and not an 80-lb. rail ? No ; I do not know that, and I do not see how this can be evidence. 202. I am prepared to put it in evidence, and in that way to prove that it is so. 203. At all events, you do not know what the weight of the rails between Baltimore and Ohio is except from what you have read in the Railroad Gazette ? As I stated, the Railway Gazette distinctly says that they are 80-lb. rails. 204. Mr. Uddy.] In America there is an association or a committee called the Master Mechanics' Asso- ciation. The Master Mechanic of America holds a similar position to the Locomotive Superintendent of English Eailways, and the Master Mechanics' Association is a very important body, and deals with very important questions in regard to the general administration of locomotive departments of the different States. I would like to ask if Mr. Hoyle is aware that that body has considered the question of what weight in locomotives rails of a certain weight bear ? I am aware of the existence of such a body, but I am not aware that they have taken this matter into special consideration, or, at all events, of any report that they have drawn up upon it. 205. Therefore I take it that you are not aware that they consider it safe for a rail of over 60 lb. to bear a locomotive of 16 tons ? 206. Professor Warren.] What weight ? 207. Mr. Soyle.] I do not know that such a weight has ever been put on the lines in America, but I do know that it is against all rules of railway management. 208. Mr. Brown.] Do you know that as far back as 1891 that an experiment was made between New Tork and East Buffalo, and that on that occasion a distance of 430 miles was performed in 425 minutes, that the weight of the engine was, with full tenders, 100 tons, and the total weight of the train was 230 tons, showing that for speed and weight in a long distance journey the record had been surpassed, and the engines run were similar to the Baldwin engines ? No ; I have not heard of that. 209. Mr. Wdy.] Of course the Commissioners have a great amount of responsibility and anxiety in connection with any new departure made by them in a question of this kind ; and as Mr. Hoyle has stated what ought and what ought not to be done, I should like to ask him whether he would be surprised to hear that I had consulted Sir Benjamin Baker and Sir John Eowler, two of the greatest engineers in England, as to whether a 70-lb. rail, such as they know exists here, would bear a locomotive weighing 16 tons and a pair of drivers. 210. President.] How can he know unless you have told him ? 211. Mr. Soyle.] I would like to ask Mr. Eddy why, under those circumstances, he is laying down 80-lb. rails on the lines in New South Wales ? In that case we prefer to pay £1 to save £5. It has been stated that a 60-lb. rail is the standard rail. Is not Mr. Hoyle aware that since the Commissioners came into office for the purposes of economy, and for other purposes, they have adopted an 80-lb. rail ? 212. I am aware that you have done it on the suburban lines ? 218. And on all lines. The rails throughout the Colony are being altered to 80-lb. rails. 214. I am aware that 80-lb. rails have been laid on the suburban lines, but I am not aware that 80-lb. rails are being laid throughout the Colony, and if they are I shall certainly have something to say about it on the question of unjustifiable expenditure. 215. Mr. Hoyle has stated that unless the alteration in the platforms was made to accommodate the Baldwin locomotive the order was given unnecessarily, at least so far as the suburban lines were con- cerned, inasmuch as it had previously been decided to quadruple them. I should like to ask how, if that alteration had not been made, the engines would have run along the suburban lines ? 216. President.] As I understand Mr. Hoyle, he says that there was never any bother before the Baldwin engines arrived. He says he never knew of the platforms being altered before the Baldwin engines 12 BAlDWIir lOCOMOTITES IITQTTIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF DTIDENCE. ''^"'"isipf^^' ^"^gi^^s. arrived, but that they have heen altered since those engines came to the Colony. He does not ^^^^J^^^" say positively as a fact that it was to accommodate the Baldwin engines that the platforms were altered, ISApril 1892 ^^^ ^® ^^^^ ^^^^ ^* should be inferred from the time that the alteration was made that it was made for ' ■ that purpose, 217. Professor Warren.] He also states that the Newtown platform was altered, and afterwards removed altogether, for the purpose of making a fresh station. 218. Mr. Moyle.'] I should like the President to ask how it was that the Eailway Commissioners thought it justifiable to alter these platforms if they had previously decided to demolish them. 219. President.'] Questions of that nature may be put to the Eailway Commissioners at a later stage of the inquiry. 220. Mr. Eddy.] With regard to the draw-gear of the engines to which Mr. Hoyle has referred as having been changed, does he know that that change was made at once, because the Baldwin people had unfortu- nately overlooked a detail in the specifications, and that the draw-gear was changed at their expense, and not because any mistake had been made in the designs. 221. Mr. Hoyle.] It is utterly impossible for me, or any man outside the Eailway Commissioners, to know what was done elsewhere. All I can say is that it was a defect, and so much has been admitted by Mr. Eddy. 222. Mr. JEddy.] Mr. Hoyle appears to have an intimate knowledge of the details of railway manage- ment, that one would have thought that he would have known of an important fact such as this. 223. President (to Mr. Eddy).] If you can prove that it demolishes that part of the charge up to the pre- sent ; however, an allegation has been made that the drawing-gear has been altered, and from that fact it is sought to draw a hostile inference. It is useless, however, for you to ask Mr. Hoyle if he knows the reason for which you altered the draw-gear was so-and-so. He cannot tell you, but if you can prove the reason for which the draw-gear was altered when you give your evidence that settles the whole thing. 224. Mr. Eddy.] With regard to the engines themselves, Mr. Hoyle has made all kinds of theoretical suggestions. I would like to ask him whether the best answer to all that he has stated would not be a statement as to the practical work that these engines are doing every day. He talks of the engines not being properly adjusted and of their slipping ? Would evidence to the effect that these engines slip less than any other on the New South Wales Eailways be the best answer to this. 225. President^ Have you any further questions to suggest to us to put to Mr. Hoyle? I do not wish to ask any more questions. 226. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Hoyle).] Tou have never been in America have you ? No. 227. Would you be surprised to learn that half the railways in the world are in America ? I am quite aware of that. 228. And that the Baldwin Locomotive Company is one of the largest manufacturers in the world? Tes, and one of the best. 229. Mr. Eddy.] I would like to ask one more question. Mr. Hoyle made some allusion to the draw-gear of the rolling-stock and stated that hauling power of the locomotive was in excess of the strength of the draw-gear. 230. President.] Tes, he did. 231. I should feel obliged if you would ask Mr. Hoyle if he is not aware that the whole of the rolling- stock of the passenger department is fitted with an automatic brake, and if the draw-gear did break the only consequence would be that the train would be brought to a standstill ? Tes ; I am aware of that and I am sorry in giving lUy evidence I omitted to draw a sufficiently marked distinction between the goods and passenger engines. If the passenger draw-gear did break away no doubt the result would be what Mr. Eddy has said, but if the draw-gear on a goods train broke the train not being fitted with auto- matic air brakes it would be very likely to lead to a serious accident. 232. President.] In other words that there would be danger to any trains not fitted with automatic brakes if the draw-gear did happen to give way ? Tes. WEDNESDAY, 13 APBIL, 1892. \Tlie Commissioners met at 2 o'cloch in fhe Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Office.] ^ustxA: — r. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.C, President. PEorESSOE WAEEEN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDEE BEOWN, Esq., J.P. David Carnegie Simpson, being sworn, said : — I am divisional engineer for the Metropolitan district. Mr. D. C. 233. President.] Do you know anything about the alteration of the platforms, more especially the suburban Simpson, platforms ? Tes, sir. /■ — ^ — ^ 234. Can you tell me when these alterations were made ? They began about June, 1891. 13 April, 1892. 235. "^^as that when the Baldwin engines had been received in this Colony ? Well, I cannot tell you the exact date of the arrival of the Baldwin engines. 236. Can you tell us as a fact whether that work was done before or after the Baldwin engines arrived here ? Before. 237. Were the alterations in the platform, such as I understand the chipping away of the brick-work and alterations to the coping stones, made in consequence of the Baldwin engines owing to their length or breadth or dimensions generally because they (the Baldwin engines) could not otherwise pursue the traffic ? The question of the adjustment of the railways to the platforms standard gauge had been under consideration for some time, and had then been decided upon. 238. Was it on account of these engines in particular ? No ; for the rolling stock generally. 239. Then it was not in consequence of the Baldwin engines only ? No ; it was on account of the Baldwin engines and other rolling stock in the Colony. 240. Can you tell us whether it was done especially on account of the Baldwin engines ? No ; I was simply under instructions at the time, and I know the work was done. 241. Who would know about this matter ? The Engiueer-in-Chief, Mr. Toxley. 242. BALDWIN liOCOMOTITES INQriEX COMMISSION — MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE. 13 242. Professor Warren.] Did you alter the Newtown platform ? Tes ; the Newtown platform was altered. Mr. D. C. 243. Did you know at the time that it waa subsequently to be removed, and a new station to be built ^mpaon. somewhere else ? I had nothing to do with it ; I was simply in charge of the existing line : I had nothing 13^ -j jggg. to do with the design. 244. President.'] Do you know at the time the alterations were about to be made, entirely new stations were about to be built ? I knew of the alterations, but I did not know the exact site where the buildings were to be erected. 245. Professor Warren.] Do you know the width of the platforms before you altered them, and the width of the altered platform ? I could give the case of Newtown Station— it went, I believe, from to 1^ inches its whole length. 24G. "What I wanted was the original width between the walls ? I have had no time to prepare my information, but I could get it. I only got my notice to appear at this Commission at 10 o'clock last night. 1 should have prepared my answers if I had known the line of examination that would be taken. 247. Mr. Mdy (to the President).] If you would ask the witness at what gauge he put it you would then arrive at the figures you require. 248. Mr. Soyle.] I must object to any prompting on the part of the Commissioner. I have some questions to ask him, and I think as he is an engineer of some repute, he might be left without prompting. 249. President.] I do not think that this is prompting. I understand the Chief Commissioner for Sailways did not intend to prompt, but only to suggest a question. He may put a question in a more intelligible way than I would, because I do not know anything of engines or railway lines. To what gauge did you alter these respectively — the line of the platform ? They were altered to 5 feet 1 inch from the centre of the road. 250. President.] If there are any questions you would like to put, they must be considered as put through me. If there are any questions which I think you ought not to put, then I shall stop you. 251. Mr. Hoyle.] The witness has said that the work on the suburban line was done in June last. "Will the witness swear that the alterations to the platforms on suburban line were done and completed in June last ? No, I cannot swear that ; because I was absent on leave during the month of June, and during my absence the work was carried out. 252. President.] "When did you come back ? I came back on the 27th June. 253. "Was it begun in June r* Tes, and it was going on for some time. "We had to see to it. The object was to briug the platforms to the standard gauge. 254. "Were they not at a uniform gauge before ? Oh, no ; the line was built before Mr. Whit ton's advent here, so that the gauges are of different widths 255. I understand the gauge to be a fixed distance from the middle of the line to the flush, the vertical ilush of the platform ? Tes. 256. Mr. Hoyle.] 1 would like to ask the witness whether in making arrangements about the gauge he would swear that the rails had not been moved in those cases where the necessity was to alter the plat- form : — will you swear that the distance in the 6-foot Was not more than 6 feet, that the alterations could not have been made by moving the rail back ? "We would use the most expedient way, if necessary to cut the platform away we would do it. 257. Will you swear that the rail was not too close to the platform, and that by the slewing the rail back the alteration of the platform would have been obviated ? I will not swear to any exact dimensions. It would not be less than 6 feet. 258. Do I understand that the witness does not know what the dimensions were when these alteration^ were brought about ? I have measurements of all the platforms before and after the alterations. 259. Did yoa ever hear in your capacity as engineer of any of the vehicles being used in the trafi&c striking the platforms previous to these alterations being made ; — will you swear that you ever heard that any of the vehicles used in the traffic ever did strike the suburban platform ? I never heard of any vehicles striking. 260. "Will you be prepared to produce the shop orders issued when instructions were given to carry out this work ? 261. Mr. Uddy (to the President).] Is it not rather irregular to have this cross-examination on his own witness by Mr. Hoyle ? 262. President^ It is put in the form of cross-examination, I admit, regarding the witness as Mr. Hoyle's own witness, but he has only to alter the question a little and ask him if he can to produce the shop orders. It is a matter of manner rather than of words. (To Mr. Hoyle) : Have you got the shop orders for the alterations ? "Which are they ?. 263. Mr. Soyle.] In the locomotive department you have shop-orders, but in your department each job has a number. I want to know the numbers for all the work done in your district authorising the work to be commenced, and I also want to know when the work was commenced. "Will you place these papers ^ before the Commission ? I think that is for Mr. Eddy to say. 264. Mr. Uddy.] "Would it not be more convenient for the Commission, rather than going into details that whenever a platform was altered, to have the particular facts placed before you with regard to the alterations, and the decision of the Commission that certain alterations should be carried out as rapidly as possible. 265. President.] I do not know what Mr. Hoyle may want these orders for, but I suppose these orders are particular orders to do certain work. I do not know whether they are called shop orders or not. 260. Mr. JSddy.] It is troubling the Commission with a lot of unnecessary detail. 267. President.] If Mr. Hoyle thinks it right to have these orders, it would not be correct for the Commission to stop them. If these shop orders are merely a preface to something else it will be better to have them. I take it that Mr. Hoyle intends to show that these alterations were made in consequence of the Baldwin engines. 268. Mr. Hoyle.] The reason I am asking these orders is that I do not intend to bring any witnesses here other than the officers of the Department, I have no communication with the men in the railway service. My charge will be made on very broad grounds. I had no communication with the men, and I ask this question because it is only through the officers of the Department that I desire to prove my case. 269. President.] I do not know what the shop orders are, and I therefore cannot express an opinion as to, their admissibility. 270. 1* _ BAIBWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES 01" ETIDENCE. ^m^bf " ^t^" '^'^' -^"^^^ 1^*° ^taess.J "Will you swear that it was not your belief that the alterations were made, -, y. J^ when they were made to meet the necessities of the Baldwin engines ? 13 April, 1892. ^'^■'^" ^^esident.'] His belief has nothing to do with the matter. Supposing that some orders were given ■ by the head of a department, and supposing his clerk forms an opinion as to why that order is given, is that opinion to prevail, although it may be quite erroneous ? ISTo matter about the opinion, what you want to know is what was done. 272. Mr. Soi/le.'] Are you aware than when the quadruplication was made between Eveleigh and Sydney, that on what is now the eastern outline a retaining wall stood before the alteration was made. 273. Professor Warren.'] What are you referring to ? 274. Mv. Hoyle.'] I am referring to the Eveleigh Station ;— are you aware that when the line was laid down a wall was built up on the eastern side, making, in fact, the eastern side of the new platform ? _ Tes. 275. "Will you swear that wall was not pulled down and another erected in its place ? I have nothing to do with it. 276. "Will you swear that that wall was not pulled down ? I do not understand you. 277. President^ Ask him if he knows it as a fact. 278. Mr. Soyle.] Do you know then, as a fact, that the eastern wall, after being first erected, was subsequently pulled down and re-built ? I am not aware of it. 279. Were you aware that when the work of quadrupling the line was ordered to be carried out, you being engineer of the district, that the platforms which had been altered in the suburban line were demolished ? I had nothing whatever to do with the site of the new building, I was simply in charge of the existing works. 280. How many of the platforms were altered ? Tou must give me time to prepare an answer — I did not know the question would be put, or I would have supplied the information. 281. Professor Warren.'] If Mr. Simpson will supply us with a list of the platforms, and details of the alterations performed after that ought to be sufficient. 282. Mr. JEddy.] How much did it cost for altering the platforms at Newtown ? 283. President.] Do you mean chipping away bricks and coping ? Yes. 284. In the case of Newtown it was about £10. 285. Mr. Brown.] How much did it cost in the suburban area ? I do not know, but I will supply the information. 286. Mv. Soyle.] Was the Granville platform altered ? Tes, it was altered. 287. There are four platforms, I b elieve ? There are three really, but they answer the purposes of the four roads ; so far as my memory is concerned, I believe they were all altered. 288. Mr. ISddy.] An answer was given in Parliament in regard to these alterations of platforms, which answer has been characterised in a speech I saw, as a deliberate falsehood. I would like to ask the witness whether he, in conjunction with the Engineer-in-Chief, made the estimate for bringing the platforms to the standard gauge, and whether he provided the information for the Railway Commission, in conjunction with the Engineer-in-Chief, but approximately the cost would be £50. 289. President.] Is that so ? Tes, that is so. 290. Mr. Brown.] What I understand from you, Mr. Simpson, is this — that you cannot give any infor- mation to the Commission with regard to the alterations, from your own knowledge ; you only know that they were altered in connection with the general vehicular traffic, and not particularly with regard — so far as you know — for the purposes of the Baldwin engines. 291. Professor "PParren.] They were altered for the purposes of uniformity, and to bring everything to a standard gauge ? Tes. 292. Mr. Soyle.] I would like now to have the Chief Commissioner sworn ; I have some questions to ask him on this particular letter^ — I would like to have him sworn in. 293. Mr. Uddy.] I do not think that would be quite fair, and I hope the Commission will not fall in with that proposal. I think that before I give my evidence I should hear the charges, and that we should have all the evidence that is to be produced against the Commissioners. 294. President.] I wish you to understand this — it appears that Mr. Hoyle desires you to be called to substantiate some ground of charge, just as if you were in a Court as one of his witnesses, so you may answer these questions, and the Commission may call you again. 295. Mr. JEddy.] I am prepared to give evidence as a witness, but not to be subjected to cross-examination. 296. President.] The questions to be put to you are to be put through me, but I shall refrain from repeating them, in order to save time. Edward Miller Gard Eddy_, being sworn, said : — Mr. Eddy, 297. I am Chief Commissioner on the Eailways of New South Wales. A.I.C.E. 298. Mr. Hoyle.] I wish to ask you is it customary for you to hold conferences with the officers on any ^~"~-^— ^N matters connected with the Department. Is it the custom of the Commissioners to call their officers 13 April, 1892 together in conference when anything is going to be done in connection with the management of the railways ? 299. Mr. !Eddy.] We hold conferences with regard to the management of the railways, and some times special meetings are held with regard to proposed works; it depends upon what we consider is the importance of the matter. 300. Mr. Hoyle.] Had any conferences relative to the importation of these engines been held. 301. President.] Had any conference been held by the Commission with its officers relative to the impor- tation of tte Baldwin engines ? Tes, there was a conference held. 302. Mr. Hoyle.] Was there any objection raised by any of the officers called together at that con- ference relative to the importation of these engines ? No. 303. Mr. Hoyle.] I wish to ask the Chief Commissioner did he make a speech on the 21st of January last at a meeting in connection with the Eailway Ambulance Corps. I will quote part of the speech and ask. him if he used those words. - ' 304. President.] Tou can ask him if in a speech he delivered before the Ambulance Corps did he say such and such words. 305. BAlDWnr LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 16 305. Mr. Royle.] Then did you in the speech delivered at the Eailway Institute, on or about the 20th of ^"^^^^i^' January last, say the following words : — " One question is that of the Baldwin engines— the ten-wheeled "^l^^^ American engines. All kinds of stories were current as to mistakes in their design, the alterations of the ]^3^ ^ ^ggg line, and so on, and it was well the facts should be known. The engines had no mistake in their design ; they were fitted as they were intended to be with regard to their size, and the alterations made upon the lines had no bearing upon the Baldwin engines. Before the Baldwin engines were ordered the Com- missioners found, on making their inspection trips over the lines that through various mishaps the works were in many places out of gauge, that in maintenance or construction of the lines the rails had been shifted in towards the fixed structure, causing the original standard of Mr. Whitton to be encroached upon. They had simply given orders for everything to be brought back to gauge. When the Baldwin engines were ordered, as they were to be made to the maximum size, the Commissioners had directed that this work should be pushed on, and it was completed by their arrival. The necessity was put down to the new engines. There was an erroneous idea that the cost of this work had been something great, but the total expenditure had been for altering stations and platforms, £2,478, and for slewing lines, £L12 — a total of £2,590 for the whole of the railways of the Colony." I would ask Mr. Eddy did he use these words — is that a substantially correct report of what you said ? 306. Mr. Eddy.'] I would respectfully decline to answer a question of that kind. It is too far back for me to remember the words I used in January last. If Mr. Hoyle will divide the points he wished me to answer, I shall do what I can to reply to them. 307. President (to Mr. Hoyle).] Tou will state particular parts of the speech you wish to refer to. 308. Mr. Hoyle.'] Is it a fact that in the maintenance or construction of the lines the rails had moved in towards the fixed structures, which was it. Were the rails put back in their proper places or were the platEorms altered ? 309. President.] It is said Mr. Eddy in your speech the rails had been shifted ; — what have you to say as to that ? I would have been more correctly reported if I had said in this speech that either the rails in the maintenance had been moved nearer to the fixed structure or the structures had been erected too close to the rails. In some cases it arose in the former way, and in other cases in the latter. 310. Mr. Hoyle.] Were the platforms altered or the rails put back where they ought to have been ? In some cases it was found possible to slew the rails out from the structure, in others it was found impossible to do BO, and therefore it was more desirable to chip the platform, which in many instances was an exceedingly small thing, and in some cases only one end of the platform was out of gauge. I might mention a great difficulty, for instance, at Petersham, where the station was erected in such a manner that there was not a proper clearance. It was always a tie upon the railway, and that has been known for years, and has curtailed the working power. It was a most difficult thing to manage, and the only way of pulling things to a standard gauge was to reduce the 6 ft. way to 5ft. 9 in. It was known for years that that place was inches out of position. 311. Professor Warren.] It was built so ? Tes ; it was built so. The majority of the cases where these difficulties have arisen are where the structures have been built since the railways were opened, and have not been built to gauge. I have with me a minute which was drawn up on the subject of the difficulties experienced owing to the want of a standard guage in working the railways. The minute is dated the 8th of April, 1892, and in it it is stated that " Owing to the want of a standard gauge any work carried out by the divisional engineers was built as they individually thought best, as was discovered when the Mann car made a trial-trip to Albury, on which I went. Many platforms were found to be very much within the gauge, and these were in all cases, except one, those that had been constructed by the Existing Lines Department. Petersham was one of these, the platform walls of which only gave a clearance of 3i in. x 2 in., and to enable the car to pass with safety the roads had to be pulled over, so that there is only 5 ft. 9 in. in the 6 ft. ; and the same thing happened at Croydon, Menangle, Douglas Park, and Picton, where alterations had to be made to the platforms ; and it might here be mentioned that between Sydney and Albury the height of platforms varied 1 ft. If in., and the distance from rail varied 7i in." With reference to the overbridges, these were so low that it was necessary to keep a gauge at some bridges to prevent fettlers packing the road too high. It is that we have been trying to put right. 312. Mr. Hoyle.] I would like to know how many platforms the carriage in which Mr. Eddy was riding when he made his first inspection struck against ? Not one. 313. Mr. Hoyle.] Did it come in contact with any one of them ? No ; not one. The carriage had been reduced some years before— a piece having been cut out of it in order to make it run on the line. I believe that, in one of the series of inspections an inspector was knocked off the step of the carriage at the end of the train by a lamp-post which had been put too near the line. In going up a short branch near Newcastle the side of the carriage was slightly damaged. When we were coming down the line cautiously at one place, we could not get on till we had cut down a large part of a gate post in order to get past, 'doming from the Mountains also we came into collision with a water column, which was too close to the line. 314. Mr. Hoyle.] Was it a fact, then, that the carriage in which you were did not strike any of the platforms ? It did not come prominently before me in that way. 315. Mr. Hoyle.] Even if your carriage did not strike any of the platforms, did you not think that, nevertheless, they were unsafe, and that it was unsafe to run carriages on that line ? Anything that happened to oiir carriage had no bearing whatever on this questign. The question was under eon- sid!eration in 1879, and here is a list of places that were under review at that time, it was reported that the platform at Clarence Siding would require 3-inch cutting; that at Bowenfells, the road in front of the platform, would require slewing 5 inches ; that the platform at Eskbank would require 3 inches cutting off ; that the road in front of the platform at Wallerawang would require slewing 3 inches ; that at Eydal, the road in front of the station would require slewing '1\ inches ; at Tarana, the road in front of the platform required slewing 2 inches ; and that in front of the station at Macquarie Plains required slewing 4i inches ; at Eaglan, also, the road required slewing 4^ inches ; at Bathurst, the road in front of the platform required slewing 3 inches, and so also with Newbridge and Blayney. These were a few of the cases in question, and a lot of the work was done : but in thinking out our work we found that the line was still materially out of gauge. Here is a, precis made for the late Commissioner before we took office, pointing out how the whole thing was wrong, and that rolling stock could not be properly utilised in consequence of not knowing what the gauge was. The memo, says : " The first notice I have been able to 16 BAIDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. ^ ^'■- ^^^y' to obtain, and it was only unearthed at Existing Lines, after much inquiry and trouble, is a minute by Mr. 'Z^j^^^ Scott, asking Mr. Cowdery for the height of the bridges at Erskinville Eoad and Newtown, and if the 13A^riri892 ^°^^ ™ *^® former place would bear lowering." Then as to Petersham, it says : " Locomotive Engineer ^ ' ■ minuted that heretofore the Petersham platform had been our great difficulty, but he found by the diagram that there were in the north platforms which projected at top 3i inches more than Petersham, the available width being thus reduced by 7 inches." These quotations were taken from a precis of papers up to 1888. That was just before we came into office, and certain engines were not allowed to run on certain parts of the line because they were too wide. Here is one quotation : " Date, April, 1889. Mr. Halligan writes Engineer for Existing Lines (also referring to a previous communication in 1888), pointing out that the large type of engines in use in the Sydney district could not be run on the Northern Line." Again, " December, 1890. The Commissioners inquired into the reason for the apparently unnecessary assistant mileage on the Northern Mail Train. Mr. Stanger replied that it_ is due to the platforms being too narrow to permit of engines of a more powerful type (304 class) being run in the northern district. Engineer is then pressed to complete the alterations to the platform already asked for by Mr. Stanger, to allow the 30i class of engine to pass." 316. Was that before the Baldwin engines came ? Tes ; the first engine of the Baldwin Company was put in steam on the 28th July, 1891. 317. The work was commenced in June. Mr. Simpson said the platform work commenced on the suburban line in June. 318. President.'] "Was the order first given in anticipation of the Baldwin engine coming? The order was not given in consequence of the Baldwin engine. The order was given, as I have tried to explain, because the whole of the system was out of gauge, and it is only one of the dozen other things the Eailway Commissioners have been trying to put straight since they have come into office. True, they have not published to the world the disorganised state of the railways, and this is only one of the things requiring reform. I have papers here showing the state of the lines in 1879, and I will show from original papers that it was a very prominent question in 1888, before we took office. A precis of the whole question came before the late Commissioner, as I have already stated, and then it came before us in various ways, but we had such an enormous amount of work in hand that we could not put our engineers thoroughly at work on this question until sonie little time had passed ; then it was brought up again, particularly when the line from Sydney to Newcastle was opened in 1889. I believe the Hawkesbury Bridge was opened in May of that year. It was then Mr. Halligan, the District Engineer in the North, wrote pointing out that the large type of engines in use in the south could not be run on the Northern Lines. It was also represented that platforms' varied in distance from rail at the top from 2 feet to 2 feet 6t inches, and the bottom from 1 foot 9t inches to 2 feet 6 inches. It was pointed out that if a class of engine which had been running in the south were used where these platforms now prevented them being used, the Department could save the cost of assistant engines, and then we gave orders that this matter should be pushed on rapidly. Many of our works were then getting more forward, and we gave our engineers directions to push on more rapidly than they had been pushing on with this work. There are engines that had been worked upon the lines half an inch wider than the Baldwin engines were ordered to be. By this arrangement these platforms were altered, and the engines were enabled to run. 319. Then it comes to this, that you say distinctly that the alterations to the platforms — more especially the surburban platforms — were not made in anticipation of, nor had anything to do with arrival of the Baldwin engines ? The question had nothing to do with the Baldwin engines. 320. Then I understand that if you desire to run large engines such as you had in stock on certain of the lines you would have had to alter them ? Tes. We were anxious since we were getting so many of these large engines that the directions we had given long before should be carried into effect as quickly as possible, so that there should be no doubt about these large engines passing safely. 321. Professor Warren.'] Tou would have ordered these alterations to be made without reference to the Baldwin engines in order to bring things to gauge ? Tes. 322. Mr. Broion.] The fact is these alterations were set about actively at or about the time the Baldwin engines arrived here, and I understood you had an engine or engines working here as large as the Baldwin engines ? I will put in dimensions showing that the measurement of the engine referred to over the cylinders was 9 feet 3-3 inches — this engine had been working here for years. \_Exhibit put in.] 323. Mr. Soyle.] Do you know at the time the alterations had to be made to the suburban paltf orms that these platforms would be demolished. Did you know this at the time that the q uadruplieation had been decided upon, these platforms would have to be destroyed ? If you will tell me the date I shall tell you whether we had settled where the new stations were to be. 32-1. Did you know when these alterations were being made to the platforms on the suburban lines that these platforms would have to be destroyed to make xoom for the quadruplication of the line ? Well, that all depended upon the date. 325. Mr. Simpson has sworn that June, 1891, was about the date on which these platforms were altered, was the Chief Commissioner then aware that the quadruplication of the surburban line was about to take place ? I do not know anything about June, 1891, 1 have given you in plain words the alterations authorised by the Commissioners with regard to these works. 326. Tou have said that it was in consequence of the engineers being so busy, and so much work being in hand that this particular work had not been begun sooner than it was. Is it a fact that when the work was begun you put gangs of men on night and day ? The Eailway Commissioners do not control the way in which the work is done, directions are given to the engineer to do certain work, and we trust to their ability and skill to carry it out. Some work they are told to carry out at their convenience other works they are told to complete at once ; for an example, the opening of the quadrupled lines to Summer Hill, the engineer was told that the work must be finished for the Easter traffic, and it was done. There are other works that the engineers are told they may carry out whenever it is a convenient time with the men. 327. Mr. Hoyle.] I want to find out, first of all, whether it was a fact that men were put on nio-ht and day for this work. Were any orders issued by the Commissioners. I understand that before any night work can be done the leave of the Commissioners must be obtained. I will ask whether the Commis- sioners gave any orders to expedite this work, which would necessitate putting on men night and day ? l" ISALDWIIf LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIET COMMISSION — MIBTTES OF ETIDENCE. 17 I have already answered that sometimes we give directions to the engineer to push on more rapidly with ^j-^*^-^^' his work. The Commissioners do not take cognisance of how the engineers carry on their work. They ^,^;j,J^ do not come to us and say " "We want to work an hour or two overtime in order to do certain things." igApril 1892 328. Is it not a fact that before overtime can be worked the permission of the Commissioners must be ' had ? It is not a fact. There are certain cases in which the Commissioners are consulted ; for example, at the end of last year the engineering department had a great need of points and cross. It was represented they could not be made in the shops sufficiently early to meet the requirements unless a night shift was put on. It was a large question, and therefore the Commissioners were consulted ; but to say that an officer would have to come to the Commissioners whenever he wanted a man at Darling Harbour to work an hour's overtime loading or unloading special lots of goods would be monstrous. 329. President.'] Supposing that the alteration in these stations was effected by having night shifts, would it be necessary for the engineers to whom the Commissioners gave direction to carry out the work to ask for permission to put on these shifts ? Not if he had direction from the Commissioners to carry out the work in a certain time. In that case we would leave it to his discretion. 330. Mr. Soyle.'] Were instructions issued in this case? 331. Fresident.'] Were there any special instructions given that this work was to be done in a certain time ? We gave directions that the work was to be pushed on more rapidly — to be completed as soon as possible. 332. Mr. Hoyle.] As this work was allowed to stand so long without the Department taking it up, will the Chief Commissioner say whether orders were given to force on this work by night and day ? The Commissioners were anxious to carry out these necessary works as speedily as possible, and we have only a further period of 3i years before our Commissions expire, and we are anxious to complete the works we are anxious to see done. ^ 333. Mr. JBrown.'] Are you correctly reported in saying that the whole expenditure in connection with the alterations represented £2,478, for slewing the lines, £112 ? The statement up to the 31st March is for altering stations and platforms £3,056 12s. 2d., slewing the lines, £112 13s. lid., making a total of £3,169 7s. Id. 334. That is the cost for the whole line ; it represents altogether about £3,000 ? Tes. Deodatus Hilin JSTeale, being sworn, said : — 335. I am a mechanical engineer by profession, and I am an officer in the Eailway Department, entrusted Mr. with responsible work. ^-^1k-^^' 336. Professor Warren.] What is your actual position ; what is your official name? I am not ^^^^^ i3j[^^^l'x892. that I have an official title. ' 337. Mr. ^ddy.] He is a mechanical engineer on the staff of the Eailway Commissioners. 338. Mr. Soyle.] Does he advise the Commissioners as to what class of locomotive rolling stock shall be brought into the service ? I, with other officers, was asked to advise the Commissioners on one occasion. 339. President.] Only on one occasion ? Only on one, I believe. 340. Mr. Hoyle.] The witness has stated that his position is to advise the Commissioners on the style of locomotive plant we should have in the Colony. Is it part of your business, Mr. Neale, to advise the Commissioners as to the particular kind of locomotive stock which shall be brought into the service. 341. Mr. Eddy.] He said he advised the Eailway Commissioners on anything that they desired to have his advice about. 342. Mr. PLoyle.] Is Mr. Neale's position in the service that of engineer — that of consulting or advising engineer — to the Commissioners as to what sort of rolling stock should be imported into the Department ? Whatever the Commissioners ask my advice about I give them the benefit of my experience and know- ledge, whatever the subject may be. 343. Mr. Soyle.] Then we are to understand that his position officially was that of consulting engineer ? 344. President.] I understand that he is a mechanical engineer on the staff of the Commissioners, and that his work is to give advice when asked for it. (To Witness) : Is your position there a sort of con- sulting engineer. Would the Commissioners say to you, "What do you think of such and such an ei^gine ; is it advisable to have it^here." Do they ask your advice periodically, or occasionally only ? My reports are made in writing. 345. Are you required to advise on every question of moment as to the importation of new engines — rolling-stock ; wiU you be consulted in such a question? Wot necessarily. 346. What service do they pay you for ? Eor the work I do, which consists of reporting on a variety of subjects as an engineer. 347. Mr. Brown.] Were you called upon to report on these Baldwin engines ? Yes. 348. Mr. Soyle.] Did you advise the Commissioners to obtain these engines ? I advised the Com- missioners that I thought the importation of these engines of immediate necessity. 349. What reasons had you, and what weighed with you, that caused you to advise the Commissioners to take that course ? 350. President.] What have his reasons to do with it, if the charge here is that the engines are defective and unsuitable to the permanent way of the railway, and I cannot see how this affects the question. I want to know how it is material. 351. Mr. Soyle.] Will the witness state to the Commission what his previous experience has been in this particular class of engine ; — has he any experience of the class of engine regularly imported ? Tes ; I had this experience that I had met and conversed with some of the most eminent locomotive engineers of America, who had told me that they were greatly pleased with the performance of this class of engine, and considered them a great improvement on anything they previously had built. 352. Have you had any personal experience ? I have seen the engines at work, and have spoken with the people who are responsible for them — the chief officers in the railway world ; and I had the performance and consumption sheets of these engines in comparison with those previously used. 353. When this order was sent to America, do I understand that Mr. Thow was not in the Colony ? He was absent. 354. Had Mr. Thow ever been consulted about the Baldwin engines being imported ? That is a fact not within my knowledge. 355. Mr. Thow having been absent, I will ask the witness was he acting for that gentleman • in fact was he not acting as head of the locomotive department in his absence ? No ; I was not acting as head of the locomotive department. 6— C 356. 18 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIET GOJIMISSION — MUTITTEB OF EVIDENCE. D H^Neale ^^^' ^° ^°^ ^^°^ whether aay plans or drawings were sent to America ;— were any drawings and specifica- "^^^^^^^__^ ■ tions sent to America with the order for these engines ? Yes ; five drawings were sent of small details. 13 April 1892. ^^'^' ^ere these drawings made in the Colony the complete set? Specifications for 'the engines were ' ■ sent from America and we asked that certain alterations should be made. Drawings of the details I have mentioned were made in the Colony. 358. What were these alterations ? They were the subject of some correspondence. I may mention that the Baltimore and Ohio engines were taken as the model, a,nd I produce here some figures regarding them. As to the alterations, we desired first of all a slightly less weight on the driving-wheels, copper fire boxes, and brass tubes, and screw-reversing gear ; the other alterations were slight, and I need not particularise them. 359. "Will you state why the lessening of the weight on the driving-wheels was recommended ? Because it was previously laid down that 14^ tons was a perfectly safe load on our railways, and I did not wish to exceed it. 360. Tou had in consideration, I suppose, the fact of the 71-lb. rail ? Tes ; I had in consideration the rail used. I believe the weight of the rail was 71 lb. 361. "When the reduction in the weight was made in the engine, was it made to meet the requirements of the 71 lb.— that is, that it would be safe to ride over a 71-lb. rail ? I am not prepared to answer that. I am a mechanical engineer. It is for a civil engineer to state that, and that weight had been fixed at 144 tons per axle. I was informed that engines had been running on these lines before with considerably over that weight, and I thought that if I limited it to that weight I would be quite within the bounds of safety. 362. Did the specification set forth that there were iron or steel axles in the bogie ? The specification stated iron or steel. 363. Do you know that it has been an established rule in our service only to admit steel axles in our locomotives ? I do not know. 364. Does the witness know, or does he think that an iron axle in a bogie of the size of these axles would be safe ? Yes ; I think it would be perfectly safe. 365. "When the engines arrived did the witness know whether these axles were iron or steel ? I did not examiae them. 366. "Was Mr. Thow here when these axles arrived ? I cannot remember ; but my impression is that Mr. Thow arrived after some of the engines were running, and others yet to be put together. 367. Mr. Eddy,'] I think I would ask the witness to think over his answer, would it not be Mr. Thow's departure and not his return that he refers to. 368. Mr. Soyle.'] Does the witness state that there was no responsible officer in the Locomotive Depart- ment whilst Mr. Thow was absent ? Certainly not. I have not said anything of the kind. 369. "Who was the responsible person during Mr. Thow's absence. "Who oaght to have examined these axles and locomotives ? The responsible officer was the manager of the works, under whose supervision these locomotives were erected. 370. "Who was he ? Mr. Howe. 371. "When you recommended these engines to be brought here the Eailway Commissioners accepted your recommendation ? 372. Mr. JEddy.} I would ask that some degree of order should be imposed in these proceedings ; Mr. Hoyle is suggesting to Mr. Neale things he never said ; Mr. Neale never said that he of his own authority recommended these engines, he said that he in conjunction with others had recommended them, and now he is made to appear to say that he alone recommended them. 373. President.'] "We understand that, it did not strike me in the way you said — if he and others recommended, it is not inaccurate to say that he recommended. 374. Mr. Eddy.] It is trying to put on one person the responsibility which does not rest upon him ; the responsibility rests upon the shoulders of the Railway Commissioners. 375. President.] Well, then, Mr. Neale, you in consultation with others, recommended the importation of the Baldwin engines ? Yes ; I am prepared to take my full share of any responsibility of the advice I gave. 376. Who were the other persons who advised in consultation with you ? They were Mr. Howe, Mr. Loughrey, and Mr. Stanger. 377. Mr. Hoyle.] The officers controlling the locomotive department were these gentlemen, are we to understand this, was the locomotive department controlled by Mr. Neale, Mr. Howe, Mr. Loughrey, and Mr. Stanger during Mr. Thow's absence. 378. President.] The witness may say whether he was consulted about these locomotives, and why he was consulted, but this Commission has not got to determine who was acting in the locomotive department during Mr. Thow's absence, how does that help us ? 379. Mr. Hoyle.] They were responsible for the safe working of the Department during the absence of the head of it. 380. Mr. Eddy.] The Eailway Commissioners personally administered the locomotive department during the absence of Mr. Thow. We took a greater responsibility than usual, and we distributed the detail responsibility over four officers. 381. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you examine the Baldwia engines after their arrival in the Colony, after their construction and during their putting together ? Yes. 382. Did you find any defects in any part of the engines ? In none of them. 383. Was there any defect in the wheels, or did you hear of any defect in the wheels ? There were no defects in the wheels. 384. Did you hear of any defects in the vfheels ? I heard^some criticism which was extremely misplaced, and made by people who understood nothing about the wheels, they did not understand the way wheels were made, and they were mislead by taking a little over-lapping of iron for a flaw. 385. There were no flaws you consider? The wheels were much safer that the ordinary make, and the inventor of them had received a medal for inventing these wheels. I would always recommend the use of the Baldwin wheels instead of the English wrought-iron wheels where ever I went. The English depends upon welds, but the Baldwin does not depend upon welds. 386. Is it a new or old principle on which these wheels are made ? It is a new adaptation of an old process, called "The Cold Spoke" process, used by Owen ana Dyson of Eotherham, the inventor of the adaptation being Mr. Vauclain. . 38'7-8. Were there ever any of these wheels made before? Yes; thousands made by the old process of which this is an adaptation, the vital part is made on the " Cold Spoke " process. 389. BAXDWIN I,OCOMOTITES,IlfQriUT COMMISSIOIT — MUTtTTES 01" EVIDENCE. 19 389. Are you aware that one of tie tender axles which was attached to a passenger train broke down ? I -p ^Jj. cannot say that I am fully possessed of the facts of that case, but I am under the impression that the i,„^j^J^' journal was twisted off — we do not call that a broken axle. _ 13April,1892. 390. "Was it before this accident or after it that any minute examination was made of this axle, or minute examination or tests made of the quality of the material ; — were such examinations made before the engines began to run, or after ? Tests were not made before the engines commenced to run. Not in this Colony. 391. Did you subject these axles to any minute examination before they commenced to run ? Personally I did not do so. 392. Do you know if any of the other officers — who with yourself controlled the Department at the time — subjected these axles to any minute examination or test ? I cannot answer that, it is not within my knowledge. 393. Do you say that you are not aware that one of these axles was broken ? 394. Mr. Brown.1 He does not call it a broken axle. 395. Mr. Hoyle.'] Is the journal a part of the axle ? Tes. 396. Did it come under your knowledge that any other twisted journals occurred, or axles were broken that you are aware of ? Tes ; but there is a distinction between journals twisted off on the inside and the outside. If inside, it is broken — if outside, it does not necessarily follow that it is a broken axle. 397. Is it dangerous foT an axle or journal to be damaged as the one referred to in the evidence yesterday was damaged ? I do not know what was the evidence yesterday. 398. If the engine or the train on which this axle is "broken had been travelling at the rate of 30 miles an hour would it have been dangerous then for the journal to be twisted off ? That is an instance which in a large number of cases might have a different result. Only about one per cent, of the axles that are broken cause any injury to life or limb or serious injury to the rolling-stock or permanent way. 399. Is it your opinion that if this particular train had been going at 30 miles an hour that when this journal twisted off no danger would have resulted to the life of anyone in the train ? Well it is a question of what the danger would have been, it might be 1 in 1,000. 400. Mr.Brown.l "Would you have liked to have been in the train ? Well, I would not have liked to have been in it. . 401. Professor Warren.] Suppose the train were going at the rate of 30 miles and the front bogie axle broke on the inside, would that be dangerous ? The thing can only be arrived at from records. A great many axles break every year — and not many result in accident. 402. Would it have the effect of making the front drop down ? Tes. It might fall and the others -take the weight, or it might not. 403. Doyou say that in the majority of cases when a front bogie axle breaks that nothing happens ? Tes, that is my experience. 404. Mr. Sot/le."} Have you had any experience in your life as a mechanical engineer of accidents of this kind, do you know whether axles have broken in some places ? I was chief draughtsman for four years on the G-reat Eastern Eailway, where the rolling stock and traffic was 50 per cent, larger than here, and all the broken axles passed through my hands. I examined the fracture and had drawings of each axle made for the Board of Trade, and during the whole of that time not a single passenger was injured through a broken axle. I should say there were about 30 broken axles a year. 405. Mr. Soyle.'] Were they bogie axles? Some were leading engine axles, the breakage of which is more serious because then there is only one axle to uphold the front of the engine, whereas in a bogie engine there are two. I remember on one class of engine three leading axles brolje. After I left the line several extra large axles broke and no serious injuries resulted. 406. What was the rate of speed the train was going at ? They were large express engines with 7 ft. 6 in. driving-wheels which could travel at 55 miles an hour. 407. Do you know when this axle broke whether the wheel came off ? I do not know. 408. Prom the opportunity you had of knowing doyou believe the wheel would come off? That depended upon whether it is an inside or an outside- journal. 409. In this particular case was it an inside or an outside journal ? It was an inside one. 410. Do you know in this case whether the wheel did come off or not ? I believe that when it broke the engine was almost at a state of rest. 411. I am referring to the case of the engine at the Sydney Station. It was coming in at a very slow rate of speed, and what I want to know is whether the wheel in that case came off ? Well I did not see it, and I should prefer the question being asked from some one who did. 412. If the axle broke, and the wheel came off, what, in your opinion, would be the result if the train was travelling at 30 miles an hour ? I think I have stated my general experience. 418. President.'] I understand that there might be an accident or not, but in any case the percentage of accidents was very slight in these cases. 414. Mr. Soyle.] After the axle broke did you make any tests of the iron, or do you know if any tests of the axles were made ? Tests were made, but not by me. 416. Do you know if the iron turned out to be good or bad ? It did not turn out to be what I should call good iron. 416. Is it any part of the duty of the engineer of the department to examine minutely the vital parts of an engine ; — is it his duty to examine these things ? If he did he would have nothing else to do. 417. If engines are brought from abroad, before any of them are run is it any part of the duty of the gentleman at the head of the department to say whether all the specifications have been carried out or not, and if everything is perfectly safe ? Do you mean is it the personal duty ? 418. President.] What I understand is this, are these engines required to be examined by some capable officer to see whether they are in a fit state to run on the Hues, whether their axles are good, and so on ? Certainly it is the custom to examine engines, and not only before they run, but every day after they ' have done running. 419. Mr. Soyle.] Was such an examinatioil made of these engines ? I said I could not state positively from my own personal knowledge. 420. Mr. Brown.] He says he has made no personal examination, and does not know who did. 421. 20 BAIDWIir LOCOMOTIVES INQUIBT COMMISSION — ^MINTTES OP ETIDENCE. ^Ti 421. Mr. SoyleJ] Are you aware that after these defects had been discovered orders were given by the — A ^°! Railway Commissioners to make these engines safe, that new steel-axles should be put in the place of the 13An"l8q2 ^'^°'^ '^^^^ ^ I ^'^ aware of the substitution. ^"^ ' ■ 422. Have steel axles been put in all the engines ? I believe they have, but I cannot speak absolutely ,; I have every reason to believe so, but I am not the officer who changed them. 423. Do you know whether it is the intention of the locomotive department to put new steel axles where it has not already been done ? 424. Mr. Brown]. How can he tell you that ? 425. Mr. Soyle.] Do you know that new axles either have been put in, or have to be put in, that in fact they are ordered? 426. Mr. Brown.] I suppose he can tell you that, as a matter of fact, some have been put in, and he pre- sumes others will be put in. 427. Mr. Neale.] Mr. Howe would know. It is under his directions these axles have been changed. I would prefer that you ask that gentleman. 428. Mr. Soyle.'] Are you aware that the trailing wheels have been bored out, and larger steel axles put in than the original iron ones ? In the trailing- wheels certainly not. 429. But in any of the bogie-axles, have they been replaced by larger axles of steel ? Tes. 430. "Were the bogie-wheels bored out to admit of a larger journal ? Tes. 431. Has a face been turned on the wheels since then, and iron rings put on the boss to strengthen them? Tes ; two iron rings have been put on. 432. Have you ever known a similar thing to be done ? Tes ; the Great Eastern Eailway. About 1861 steel was a new material, and a great deal was expected from it. In some of Eobt. Sinclair's engines with Vrfeet driving wheels 16 by 24 cylinders, the original 5| inch axles were found too small, and larger axles 6|- inches diameter were substituted and put in the same wheels. 433. I understand the driving and trailing and coupling wheel axles of the engines were originally steel ? No ; I believe they are iron. 434. I am asking you about the bogie ; — do you know where, in any case, an iron axle has been taken out, and the hole in the wheel made larger, and steel axle then put in its place ? Tes ; hundreds and thousands of cases. 435. Do you know whether wrought-iron rinp;s have ever been shrunk on to the bosses of the wheels to strengthen them ? In thousands of cases. There is no danger of the ring coming off if they have been shrunk on properly. Is not every tire on the railway shrunk on? and if it is safe to shrink on a tire which has a side blow against the rails, is it not safe to shrink on a ring ? 436. Is there any liability of the rings put on to the bosses of the wheels to strengthen them coming off ? I do not think that, humanly speaking, there is any possibility — there is certainly no possibility of one of the rings coming off because it is between the wheel and the box, and I think it a very remote chance of the "outer one coming off. 437. Is the ring put on the boss fastened the same way as the tire ? A great number of tires are not fastened except by being shrunk on. 438. The tires you refer to, are not they also fastened with a set screw ? Tes ; they are fastened with some fastenings. 439. Is the ring put on the boss of the wheel also fastened with a set screw to make it secure ? No ; I believe not. 440. Now, if these rings came off is it the opinion of the witness that the bosses of the wheels would be unsafe ? No. 441. Then, why were the rings put on if it is not unsafe to take them off ? I will explain. Ton want a wheel that is durable as well as safe. A wrought-iron driving-wheel, for example, is composed of a number of pieces welded together. In time, with the vibration of constant working of the engine, some of these welds will give way, but it does not follow that an accident will consequently happen, because the, giving way of the wrought-iron welds in these cases is gradual; but you have this inconvenience, that when you find it is giving way you have to take the wheel off and replace it with another. It will go on gradually becoming worse and worse. In consequence, these rings are put on to prevent the occurrence of any crack, Eemoving the wheel, if the crack once starts, is only a question of time, and in order to prevent that the ring is put on. If one of these rings dropped off the engine-driver would notice it, and the wheel would be marked for taking off. 442. Do you consider that it is the custom to shrink on rings instead of having your bosses sufficiently large ? I do not say it is the custom, but it has been done, and so far as I know with perfect immunity from accident. 443. "Were the, bosses in these wheels larger or smaller than those of the wheels you have seen done in England ? I cannot say that without reference to the wheels themselves. 444. Do you consider that the bosses of the wheels with the old small iron axle were anything too large ? I consider that they were amply large. 445. But if the ring came off and the boss of the wheel burst before the driver noticed it, would there not be a serious rssult ? These things do not happen suddenly ; it is not so much a question of safety as durability. 446. If you consider iron safe, but steel more safe, why was it considered necessary to put in steel axles instead of the original iron ones ? On this point there are a great many opinions; as doctors differ so do engineers. Some engineers consider steel axles best ; others, that an iron axle made of scrap is' best • others still, that an axle made of muck-bars are the best. Muck-bars are bars welded together as they - leave the rolls. I may hold one opinion, and someone else another, and the practice of English railways differs in this respect. 447. Tou have already stated that the iron axles which came with these engines were sufficiently strong, and he has given no reason why additionally strong steel axles should be put in their place. "Was it to increase the weight on the bogie ? Not exactly ; it would not increase the weight as much as a man riding on front of the engine. I did not advise it ; I was only an on-looker, but I believe it was done because it was thought the journals would run cooler. They would give more bearing service, and run cooler 448. Was there sufficient lubrication of the journals and the boxes ? In a letter written to the Baldwin Company, we asked for extra lubrication on account of the heat of the climate, dust and so on, our line BALDWIN LOCOMOTITJES INQriET COMMISSION — MINtTTES OF ETIDENCE. 21 13 April, 1892 lire being rery dusty. And I believe they tried to comply with our requirements and provide for Mi\ sufficient lubrication. That letter was written on the advice o£ myself, Mr. Stanger, Mr. Loughery, and ^'^j^^' Mr. Howe. 449. Do you say that there was the necessary provision made for lubrication in these engines when they arrived ? Tes. 450. Now since you say you have seen that the proper request for lubrication was made, can you say why these particular journals ran hot? It is very difficult to say why these journals ran hot — as in other things you may take great pains and still things will not happen as you expect. 451. Do you, as an engineer, think that if a journal such as the one that broke ran hot, it was the result of a defect in the design of the bogie or the axle or the part of the axle which ran hot and twisted off ? It all depends upon the circumstances, the best axle in the world will twist off if something goes wrong in the supply of oil. 452. The witness has already stated that he saw that the proper provision was made for lubricating the axle. Now we find that by reason of extra heating one of the axles came off. Having satisfied himself previously that there was sufficient provision for lubrication, I now ask him whether there was or was not a defect in the design, and that the journal twisted off in consequence of the overheating? Well, I can- not understand so long and complicated a question, which involves statements that I cannot admit. 453. President.'] Did the journal twist off because of overheating ? Tes. 454. Professor Warren.] Did you consider the bearing-service provided by the Baldwin Company suffi- cient for these axles ? Tes. 455. And the pressure on the bearing-surface is not excessive ? No, it is not. 456. Then how do you account for the axles running hot if the lubrication is sufficient ? Sometimes it is a very difficult thing to account for a journal running hot. I remember one particular part of an engine seized twice when driven by the same driver. He was a good man and an experienced driver, and we could not find the reason of it. A little bit of grit or waste may run in between the bearings and the journal, and make them get hot. 457. Did you draft the specification for the engine ? No ; it was forwarded to us by the Baldwin Com- pany, and I, in conjunction with three other officers, suggested certain alterations. We advised the Railway Commissioners that it was a good engine, but that in order to answer the requirements of our railways, certain modifications would be necessary. 458. What alterations were suggested ? There was a draw-hook. A suggestion as to the form of the cylinder-flanges was made, also the contour of the tyre, so that we should get the proper shape. Then there was a suggestion as to how they should make the big end. We prefer the bolt and block big end to the strap big end, which is used in America. 459. I understand that the specification that was sent by you to the Company was a modification of the specification sent by the Baldwin Company to the Commissioners ? Tes. 460. Was anything said in that specification about the quality of material ? A great deal was said about the quality of the boiler and fire-box material, and the tubes, and the tests to which they would be subjected was also stated. 461. Was that not the case with regard to all the material? No ; I do not think that anything was said about the tests for the axles. It appears that it is not usual to specify tests for locomotive axles. 462. Do you mean to say that it is not usual to specify tests for locomotive axles for engines ordered in England ? Well, it is done sometimes, and often is not done. I have never done it in any specification that I have drawn up myself. 463. But do you not require the very best material in an axle — the finest material that can be produced ? Tes ; you require very good material, but for that you rely upon the reputation of the firm from whom you order the engine. 46i. That is to say, you do not specify any tests ? No ; it has during the last few years been more cus- tomary to do it, but it is not always done, and was very seldom done ten years ago. 465. Do you know that all makers of axle specify that their steel shall stand Certain elongation and reductions of area ? Tes ; but when it comes to first-rate locomotive axles it is customary to rely more upon the purity of the material used and not to specify the tests of strength. Where that is done it is usually in the case of cheaper axles. The makers then say " We are giving you a cheap axle, and in order to satisfy you that it is equal to your requirements we say that they willstand such and such a test," but where you go to a first-class firm such as Tickers & Company they simply say " We supply the best axle," and it is not usual in that case to specify a test. 466. Do you mean to say that Tickers & Company do not say that their axles shall stand certain tests ? Well, they have during the last few years, but I do not think that you will find that practice has existed long. 467. Did you say that it had existed for ten years ? No, not so long; and I think you will find that it is done now because they are making a large number of axles by a cheaper method. I never heard of any specifications for tensile strength and elongation in the case of scrap axles. 468. Not for Torkshire scrap axles ? No. 469. Tou trust to the honor of the firms supplying the axles in fact? Tes ; the scrap is carefully selected, and carefully worked, and the reputation of the firm is supposed to be a sufficient guarantee of its quality. 470. And in writing a specification then you would not think it necessary to supply any tests ? No ; but I should take this precaution, that I should only ask for tenders from certain first-rate firms. 471. President.] The Baldwin firm is a first-rate firm, is it not? 472. Mr. Eddy.] I would ask whether it is necessary to ask Mr. Neale as to what he would do under certain circumstances in which he was never called upon to act ? 473. President!] The Baldwin engine firm that you ordered these engines from is a first-rate firm, is it not ? Tes ; a very good firm — a firm of very high reputation indeed. 474. Mr. Soyle.] I wish to ask the witness whether, when he recommended certain specifications, he made any recommendation as to the quality of material that should go into the axle of the bogie and tender wheel ? No. 475. I understand from the answer you gave Professor Warren that you trust to the honor of the firm to supply first-class materials ? Tes ; that is the custom. 476. 22 EAtDWnr I/OCOMOTITES INQrlET COMMISSIOIT — MINtlTEg OP ETIBENCB. D H N 1 ^'^^' ^^^ ^°^ aware a discussion arose in the Department as far back as 1886 on this question of axles ? •[^^I^^" Of iron axles ? 13 April 1892. ^^^' ^^garding the quality of steel that should be put into the axles of our rolling stock ? Yes ; but I was ' ■ not talking about that. 478. What I want to point out is this, that our Eailway Department has always jealously guarded the interests of the trayelling public, and in that respect I believe that the present Commissioners are no exception to the rule, and in doing that, when in 1886 they required some locomotives, the then Loco- motive Eujgiheer, Mr. Scott, insisted that the axles should be of a certain quality. 479. President.'] Do you know what Mr. Hoyle is asking ? I do not. I had not then arrived in the country. 480. P/-e«¥e»!f (to Mr. Hoyle). How can you get that from this gentleman ;— you can probably get_ it from somebody else ; — if it took place before he came to the country, how can he know anything about it ? 481. Mr. Ed^.] I suggest that it has no bearing upon this question. A contract was entered into by the Department some years ago for a supply of axles and tyres of a certain kind of steel for a number of years. The fact that that is demonstrated to you does not tell you that the Eailway Commissioners concur in it, or otherwise, and it is therefore quite apart from this question. 482. Fresident.] Tes ; I do not see that it has anything to do with it. 483. Mr. Hoyle.'] The witness has already admitted that the journal surface was sufficient, and he has no reason to believe that any of the surfaces were not up to the requirements ; — is it a fact that there were only small oil-cups fitted to the bearings for the purpose of lubricating them when the engines came here ? Which bearings do you refer to ? 484. The bearings of the bogie wheels ? They are lubricated from beneath, not by oil-cups. 485. Well, were they supplied with oil-cups when they came here? I should-not exactly call them oil- cups. They were supplied in the way in which it is customary to supply American locomotives. 486. Then do you think that sufficient provision was^made for lubrication ? Tes. 487. Tou said just now in your evidence that in revising, or rather in altering the specifications submitted to you from America, you provided for certain modifications in the draw-hooks ; — were the draw-hooks that you provided for in your specification on the engine when they came here ? Some clerical error had been made in the drawing rooms of the Baldwin Company, and the engines were not in that respect to our requirements. The Baldwin Company recognised that, and agreed that the alterations should be made at their expense. 488. Tou say that stronger hooks were made for these engines after they arrived ? Tes. 489. Do you know whether any of the draw-gear on the engines has broken since they commenced to run here ? I believe that one or two of the hooks originally sent out broke. 490. Were any of the draw-hooks that were originally supplied with any of these engines used on the lines of this Colony ? Tes, I believe they were used for a short time. 491. Tou said here just now that the specification provided that the engines were to have a different hook — a stronger hook ; — I ask now whether you made any report to the Commissioners to the effect that these hooks were not in accordance with the specifications. 492. Mr. Eddy.] This witness has said several times that he had nothing whatever to do with these matters, and that somebody else ought to be asked these questions. 493. President.] Tes, I know that is so. There is no desire on the part of .the Commission to limit the inquiry at all so far as we are permitted by our Commission to inquire into the question, but supposing they did use these draw-hooks, if no accident had happened I do not see what bearing the evidence has upon the case. 494. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes, but you will remember that one of my charges was that gross negligence has been shown, and that the Commissioners admitted that charge. 495. President^ No, I do not know that. 496. Mr. Brown.] Which set of Commissioners do you mean? Neither set has admitted that so far. 497. President.] The first charge that you made was " That in consequence of the extra width of Baldwin passenger engines or their great length the platforms on various parts of our lines have had to be altered." The second charge to the effect that the Baldwin passenger engines were not required and should not have been imported, and that the money spent upon them was, therefore, an unnecessary expenditure of public funds, was disallowed. The third charge, which now stands as the second charge, is as follows : — " That the safety of the draw-gear will be in danger if the Baldwin passenger engine or the Baldwin consolidation goods engines draw the loads that it is stated by the railway authorities they are intended to draw. 498. Mr Brown!] la not that the one to which you referred when speaking just now of the draw-gear ? 499. Mr. Hoyle.'] Tes, but in the fifth charge it is said that the Baldwin passenger engines and the Baldwin consolidation goods engines are faulty in design, and that certain parts of the axles of the bogies and tenders are dangerous, and gross neglect was shown by allowing the engines to run before the parts in question were removed. That might not refer to the pa!rticular question before you ; but what I wanted to prove is that neglect has been shown. 500. President.] Tes, but we are not now trying an action in which there has been an accident to a passenger, and the question is whether the Commissioners should allow a particular engine to run with particular draw-gear. That might show some neglect on the part of the Commissioners, but that is not the question. We are simply inquiring into the question as to whether the Baldwin engines are defective or not. 501. Mr Eddy.] Certain defects were found in the engines, and active steps were taken to put them to rights. 502. President (to Mr. Hoyle.)] Tou cannot go into the question of whether there has been any neglect on the part of the Railway Commissioners or anybody else. All that we can allow you to call evidence upon — and I am not binding myself to allow that yet — is whether these engines, when imported were defective and not up to the standard and specifications required by the Commissioners and tha!t it is quite a different thing from the question as to whether there was any neglect on the part of the Commissioners. 503. Mr Hoyle.] One of my charges set forth that if these engines haul the load that the railway author- ities say that they are intended to haul, the safety of the draw-gear is endangered. What I want to find out is this : — We heard yesterday that this draw-gear had been removed to give place to a stronger gear. Now the witness in reply to a question of mine says that all the draw-gear was not removed that admittedly BAIBWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTriET COMMISBIOTT — MINUTES OF ETIBENCE. 23 admittedly defective draw-gear was allowed to be used, and that he believes that two of these defective hooks broke. 504. President.'] Supposing that is so, the evidence is that that has been remedied, and it has, therefore, nothing to do with this particular point. 505. Mr. Soyle.'\ But what I want to show is that those engines were so powerful that they broke the draw-gear. Does Mr. Neale know whether this draw-gear was attached to a passenger or a goods train ? 506. Mr. Neale.'] I do not. 507. Mr. Soyle.'] Will the witness state that if this hook had broken 5,08. Mr. Mddy.\ All these things are matters of inference. Can Mr. Hoyle state that any single draw- gear in the twelve Baldwin engines that he is talking about ever broke when used in drawing trains. 509. President^ Yes. I must say that with every desire to allow Mr. Hoyle to inquire into every point that we are allowed by our Commission to inquire into, we cannot take into consideration the question of whether the Eailway Commissioners were negligent in allowing this, that, or the other. If the Baldwin engines were defective it was not their fault as far as we can find out at present. 510. Mr. Soyle.'] I do not want to show that it was the result of neglect. I want to show that these engines do break the draw-gear, and I want to ask the witness as an engineer what would be the consequence if one of these draw-hooks broke on a goods train ? 511. But did any of the draw-hooks break ? 512. Mr. Soyle.'] In the charge to which I have referred I state that if the loads that these engines are intended to haul are put on they do endanger the draw-gear. 513. President.] Do you mean that they endanger the present draw-gear ? , 514. Mr. Soyle.'] I refer to any draw-gear used in the service. We have had it admitted that two hooks have broken. 515. Mr. Brown.] What you want to say is that this draw-gear is unfitted for the work of the railways ? 516. Mr. Soyle.] No ; I believe that the Commissioners have increased the strength of their draw-gear. 517. Mr. Brown.] Then does that satisfy you? 518. Mr. Soyle.] Tes ; but my charge is this — that if the Baldwin engines haul the load that it is stated by the officers of the Department that they are intended to carry, that is to say, that if one of these engines is to do the work of two ordinary engines, the draw-gear is thereby endangered. 519. Professor TVarren.] Which draw-gear ? 520. Mr. Soyle.] The draw-gear between the engine and any part of the frame. 521. Mr. Eddy.] That is all supposition. The Commission has been appointed to try a direct charge that these engines are unsuitable to our railways. As far as hypothetical cases are concerned, it might be said if a train ran off the rails on the Blue Mountains a large number of people might be killed ; that would be just as much to the purpose. As a matter of fact, these charges were made in Parliament before a single Baldwin engine ran upon the railways of New South Wales, and all the facts in support of them placed before you now have been recently discovered, a great many of them during the last week or two ; a great many of them, too, are hypothetical. 522. Mr. Soyle.] I think those charges were admitted yesterday. 523. Professor TVarren (to Mr. Neale).] Is the draw-gear equal in strength to the maximum pull that will come upon it when the engine is taking its full load ? The draw-gear on the engine ? 524. Tes ? Yes ; I consider that it was quite equal to what it ought to be. 525. Have you gone into it carefully ; — have you made any calculations upon the subject ? 526! Mr. Eddy.] Mr. Thow will be prepared to give you evidence upon this point. 527. President (to Mr. Neale).] You have not gone into this ? No ; I have not gone into it very much. 528. To Mr. Soyle.] You say that these engines were imported to draw very heavy loads, and you say, that having brought out these engines capable of drawing such loads, the Railway Commissioners have thereby been endangering the draw-gear ? 529. Mr. Soyle.] That is my contention. 530. Mr. Eddy.] Then I should like you to ask him to prove it. 531. Mr. Brown.] He is going to call one of your witnesses to do, that. 582. Mr. Soyle (to witness).] Were two engines known as compound engines imported with the other engines ? Yes. 583. Have these compound engines been at work ? Yes. 534. Do they travel at anything like a decent speed ? Yes. 535. Did you visit Penrith at any time relative to these engines ? Yes. 536. Would you tell the Commission why you went to Penrith ? To ride on the compound. 537. Was any complaint then made to you about these engines being slow ? No. 588. I might ask a personal question here. Of course, Mr. Neale is one of the gentlemen who recom- mended the Commissioners to import these engines. In a letter written by you to the Commissioners on the 27th March, 1890, you recommended to the Commissioners the offer of a certain English firm to supply locomotives to the Colony, and in that recommendation you said further what should be the standard train. You say: "I give the following figures for the desirable standard trains on gradients of 1-40.— D. Mr. H. Neale. 'PASSENGEK TRAINS. 2 Sleepers 1 Car lat (lavatory) 1 Car Compo. (lavatory) 1 2nd 1 B.V. (lavatory) 6 Vehicles (loaded) weighing Engine and Tender Total 50 tons 23 „ 23 „ 23 „ 21 „ 140 „ 80 „ 220 „ GOODS TRAINS. 25 Wagons at 8 tons (loaded) ... 200 tons 1 B. Van (bogie) 16 „ Engine and Tender 80 ,, Total 296 „ 13 April, 1892. The difference in weight, 76 tons, would be offset by the higher speed required with the passenger train." Can you tell us what the weight of the Baldwin passenger and locomotive consolidation engine is ? I am not prepared to admit that Mr. Hoyle has quoted my figures correctly. I should like that letter placed before the President. 539. Mr. Soyle.] I place before you, Mr. President, a Eeturn laid by the Minister for Railways upon t;he Table of the House and printed by the authority of Parliament. ' 54q 24 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQOTEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. D H^N ^^^' "^''" -^^^-l -^ii'l I would wish to call your attention to the fact that whatever these figures are ■J_j^_^|_^' they have no hearing upon this inquiry. It is not the weight of the average train that is given in them. 13 April 1892 ^^^' -^''" -^o.yZe.] I contend that it has a hearing on the point. Mr. Neale recommended here an engine ' at 80 tons. I want to know why, having done that, he has since recommended a heavier engine to he brought to the country. Here he recommends that the engine and tender should be 80 tons, and I want to know why he has since recommended that a heavier tender should be imported ? 542. Mr. Eddy.'] I would point out that this has no hearing upon the question at all. Tou might as well say that every officer who reports to the Commissionersis by his report to tie the Commissioners in their actions. When an officer is called upon for a report he reports to the best of his ability, and the Commissioners decide the matter in a way they think best, giving due attention to all the facts of the case. Mr. Neale never intended to tie the Commissioners to this weight of train, but simply wished to state what weight an engine of that particular kind should carry. 543. Mr. Soyle.] I want to point out that in this instance Mr. Neale recommended this weight of train to the Commissioners, and that subsequently engines intended to draw a much heavier train were brought to the country. 544. Mr. Brown.] Can that report of Mr. Neale's bind the Commissioners in any way ? 545. President.] I do not see exactly what particular bearing the point you are trying to establish has upon the question. Of course it is to be presumed that every question is put to the witness by me, but as a matter of convenience to you and to myself, I have asked you to put the questions directly, instead of filtering them through me, but now you are cross-examining this witness, and you want to contrast some- thing that he has said before with what he is saying now. Do you want to discredit him, because that is what it looks like, and you call him as your own witness. 546. Mr. JSoyle.] He has reported that an engine should be at a certain weight, and now we have an engine of an extra weight brought to the country. 547. President.] I want to point out that this gentleman has been called by the Commission, but called at your request, and now you want to cross-examine him. I do not see what effect what you have put in would have upon the question. The paper says : " "We do, however, undoubtedly badly want more powerful engiiies for the heavy parts of the line, and as showing that one class of engine would do for both goods and passenger traffic, 1 give the following figures for the desirable standard trains on gradients of 1 in 40." And then it is that the engine and tender of 80 tons come in. 548. Mr. Royle.] Well, I take it that when Mr. Neale made that report he had in view the strain which would be placed upon the draw-gear. 549. Mr. Pddy.] Ko such construction was ever put upon his figures. 550. Professor Warren.] It appears to me that all you prove is that the Baldwin engines weigh more than 80 tons. 551. Mr. Moyle.] Quite so, and the fact that the Baldwin engines will endanger the safety of the train. 552. President.] Tou maintain that Mr. Neale supplied the figures furnished in the Parliamentary return as the desirable weight of a train ? 553. Mr. PEoyle.] Quite so. 554. President.] Do you want to make out then that your own witness is wrong in what he has stated to-day ? 555. Mr. Soyle.] What I want to make out is this, that whilst Mr. Neale, as an expert, recommended a train of a certain weight to be a safe train, engines have been imported for ihe purpose of drawing a heavier train, and that if tbe train goes beyond the weight recommended by Mr. Neale it is not safe for the draw-gear, 556. Mr. Neale.] Might I make an explanation ? 557. President.] Certainly ; iu one moment. I will allow the question to be asked (to Mr. Hoyle) : Tou want to ask the witness whether he made this report to the Chief Commissioner ? (Witness) : T^es, I did. 558. President (to witness.)] N^ow you want to explain something? I should like to say that the addition of 100 tons to the weight of the engine, would make no difference to the draw-gear in the train, because the weight of the train strains the draw-gear by its weight, and the weight of the engine has nothing to do with the strain on the draw-gear of the train at all, and therefore the substitution of a 90-ton for an 80-ton engine would make no difference to the draw-gear of the train, and I should further like to say that in these figures I contemplated a Mogul engine, in which the leading end of the engine is supported by one axle and two wheels ; hut we have had engines of the ten-wheeler type, in which the leading end is supported by two axles and four wheels, which gives greater security, but at the same time some inci ease in weight. 559. President.] This report will be admitted. [Ilxliibit^ 560. Professor Warren.] Tou mean, Mr. Neale, of course, that if one engine could pull 50 trucks, and another engine could pull 100 trucks, that pulling 100 will entail a greater strain upon the draw gear than the one pulling the 50 trucks ? Tes ; but the addition to the weight of the engine would not strain the draw-gear any more. 561. Mr. Soyle.] Will the additional weight of the engine have any effect upon the permanent-way when going at a high rate of speed ? 562. Professor Warren.] Tou had better not ask Mr. Neale that question. Tou will be able to get it from subsequent witnesses. 563. Mr. Hoyle.] I would like to ask the witness whether, in increasing the haulage power of the engine, we should or should not increase the strength of the draw-gear ? Not necessarily. 564. That is provided that the draw-gear was strong enough previously. Can you tell the Commission what was the load hauled by our strongest engines— say the strongest engine we had before these Baldwins came here — what was the load hauled by such an engine on a goods train ? What was the number of trucks ? On what gradient ? 565. On the mountain grade— say, on the Lapstone grade— a grade of about 1 in 40 ? Which do you mean ? 566. Take the Mogul engine that is now, I understand, running the Northern express— what would be the load of trucks that that engine could haul up the grade at the Lapstone Zig-Zat' ? That engine is not usedto haul trucks. ° 567. Is the Mogul the strongest engine employed on the railway before the arrival of the Baldwin engines ? What do you mean by the strongest engine ? 568. The one that can haul the greatest load ? No. 569. What could the strongest engine on the lines, before the arrival of the Baldwin engine, haul P Fourteen waggons. • q>jq' BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 25 570. "Will you swear that that was the maximum load ? Yes. -p „^ii . 571. "Will these Baldwin engines haul double that load ? No. '\^' 572. What is the maximum load that the Baldwin engines can haul unassisted ? I find the greatest difii- isT^jJ^g. culty in answering these questions, from the vague manner in which they are put. 573. President.'] That is out of your line too, is it not ? No, it is exactly in my line. But a question of this kind all depends upon the gradients and the curves. 574. Mr. Uddy.] Might I suggest that, instead of having this officer to answer questions of this kind, it would be more valuable to you to have the Locomotive Superintendent, or the Traffic Superintendent, who come in daily contact with these engines, to answer them. 575. Fresident.] If you can tell Mr. Hoyle that there is an officer who can give him the information he desires, he might be satisfied ; but perhaps he will not be satisfied, and in that case I can only allow him to proceed. 576. Mr. Hoyle!] I am dealing with a gentleman in a high position. 577. Mr. Eddy.] It is no use asking that a clergyman should tell you how to drive a locomotive._ There are several officers in the Department, and some can give you more valuable evidence upon certain points than others. All our officers are at your disposal. 578. President.] I see all that, but I do not like to decline to put a question to this gentleman if he can answer it, because it might be that Mr. Hoyle will call some gentleman who will disagree with him if he does answer it ; but as I understand it, he complains that the question is put in too bald a manner. 579. Mr. JEddy.] And in addition to that it is not a question of pulling. The practical way is to put an engine behind and an engine in front when necessary to do away with the danger of the hauling-gear breaking. It is the actual daily work of the engines that should be taken into account. 580. Mr. Brown.] "What you want to get at is the practical work done by these Baldwin engines. Ton should compare them with the best class of engines here. "Why don't you ask witness the question generally ? 581. Mr. Hoyle (to witness).] Were you ever locomotive engineer in any locomotive works in the world ? I was acting and assistant locomotive engineer on the western section of the Cape Grovernment railways. I was first assistant superintendent and then acting superintendent. 582. President!] But Mr. Hoyle, supposing you were conducting this case in a Court, and you were calling this witness as a party to your case, and I do not think I can give you a position involving more latitude than that of a party conducting a case in a court of law, do you suppose that after putting a witness in the box you would be allowed to ask him questions with the apparent' object of discrediting all that he had previously said ? 583. Mr. Hoyle.] I should be sorry to hurt the feelings of any gentleman present, or Indeed of any man, but Mr. Eddy has tried to show that the witness should not be called upon to answer these questions, and I want to show that he has been placed in positions in various parts of the world that fit him to answer these questions. 584. President.] Oh, I beg your pardon, I did not understand your question. I apologise. It was entirely my fault ; but from your manner I misunderstood your object. 585. Mr. Eddy.] I beg to differ from Mr. Hoyle's statements. 586. President.] I must accept Mr. Hoyle's explanation. 587. Mr. Eddy.] But he has made a statement in regard to my wishing to discredit Mr. Neale, whereas we have the greatest possible regard for Mr. Neale's ability. 588. President.] Do not suppose that that was intended. Prom what I have seen of Mr. Neale I am sure that he is far too intelligent a witness to imagine anything of the kind. 589. Mr. Hoyle!] I must ask Mr. Neale whether he thinks it would be safe to haul a train of double the ordinary size by one of these Baldwin engines. If the strongest engine on the line previous to the arrival of the Baldwin engines could haul fourteen trucks up 1 in 33, do you think that it would be safe for the draw-gear for the Baldwin engine to pull a load of twenty-eight trucks up such an incline without the assistance of an engine behind. 590. Mr. Eddy.] I must object to all this. I have pointed out before that it is necessary for those engaged in the practical working of the traffic to give evidence on these points, but as a matter of fact goods traffic up 1 in 33 is always assisted by an engine in the rear whether double the amount of ordinary weight is put on a train or not. 591. Mr. Hoyle.] A statement appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald to the effect that these engines would do double the amount of work of any other engine n9w in the service. My contention is that it that statement is true, then by putting double the amount of strain on these engines the draw-gear would be endangered. 592. Mr. JBrown.] Supposing, on the other hand, that these engines draw one truck more than any other engine in the service, how does that affect your case? 593. Mr. Hoyle.] I think it helps my case. If statements have been made time after time in the public Press that double the load is going to be put on trains that are being hauled by these engines, it is important to know whether they are true, because if they are true, I maintain that the draw-gear is endangered. 594. Mr Brown.] Our business is to inquire whether these engines are suitable for the New South Wales railways, and if we find that they will do better work than any other engines, that will satisfy me. 595. Mr. Hoyle.] I base my statements upon the authority of paragraphs in the newspapers, to the effect that they would do double the amount of work done by other engines, and I maintain that they ha>e not done anything of the kind. 596. Mr Eddy.] Mr. Hoyle says that he bases his charge upon something that he has seen in the news- papers to the effect that the engines will do twice as much, or are doing twice as much, as any other engine in the service. I would point out that the charges made by him, as a result of which this Com- mission was appointed, were made on the 20th August, and at that time not one single engine of the con- solidation type had arrived in the colonies. I do not, therefore, quite see how the statement in the Press, to the effect that the engines were doing twice as much work as any other engines, could have appeared. 597. President.] Not at that time, certainly, but you must look at the date of the Commission. It is dated the 15th March, and is to inquire into the allegations made, that the recently imported Baldwin locomotives are defective and unsuitable to the permanent way of the railways of the Colony, and are not 6 — D rendering 26 BALDWIN lOCOMOTIVES INQtJILT COMMISSIOlf — MINrTES OF ETIDEITCE. D K^N- I rendering the service which was expected of them. As I understand it, under that Commission, any alle- ^^^^^^^^' gations made up to.the date that the Commission was issued, becomes the subject of inquiry. I am not 12 Atiril 1892 responsible for the drawing up of the Commission, and most heartily wish that I had never seen it. _ 1^ ' " ■ 598. Mr. Eddy.'\ The Commission says, '' not rendering the services expected of them." Well, we have placed before you all the papers relative to the ordering of the engines, and we are prepared presently to bring evidence before you as to what they are now doing. 599. Mr. Brown.'] Mr. Hoyle relies apparently upon some newspaper reporta. COO. ^residetpt.'\ What is the specific question ? GOl. Mr Hoyle.] That if twenty-eight loaded trucks were attached to one of these Baldwin engines, without an engine pushing up behind, does the witness think that the draw-gear would take the train safely up 1 in 33. 002. Mr. JEddy.] I object to that question being put, because in actual practice such a method of haulage does not exist. An engine is invariably put behind to assist a goods train up such a grade. 603. President.] The Commission allow the question tobeput. 604. Witney to Mr. Hoyle.] Would you repeat your question ? 605. Mr. Hoyle.] Ton have already stated that fourteen trucks represent the ordinary load that was carried before the Baldwin engines came to the Colony, what, in your opinion, would be the effect upon the drsiw-gear if double that load was attached to one of the Baldwin engines up an incline of 1 in 30 ? Well, the answer to that question is very simple. The train could not start. 606. Professot; Warren.] Tou mean that the engine could not pull twenty-eight trucks up 1 in 30 ? Quite so. 607. How many could it pull up 1 in 30 ? Twenty, with one bogie brake-van. 608. Without the assistance of an engine behind ? Yes ; but I should like to-pointout that that has very little practical bearing upon the question, because it is not the ordinary way of working. 609. President.] That may be, but I want every opportunity to be given for throwing light upon the matter. 610. Mr. Hoyle (to witness).] Have you examined any of these engines lately ? 611. Mr. Eddy.'\ 1 would really object to this waste of time. Mr. Neale, as 1 have said before, is attached to our office for special purposes. He is not engaged in the outdoor practical working of the railway, and it is a sheer waste of time to ask these questions of him when they could be put to a practical man. 612. President.] Well, if Mr. Neale says, "I don't know anything more about it, it is not in my depart- ment," I suppose there will be an end of it, and Mr. Hoyle would not ask any more questions, but it is not for me to stop the examination as long as Mr. Hoyle thinks he can obtain evidence of value. 613. Mr. Hoyle.] I made the charges, and surely I should be allowed to prove them. 614. President.] I am deciding in your favour, and any further argument is unnecessary; besides I wish it to be understo94 that after I have given my decision all arguments upon the point must cease. 615. Mr. Hoyle.] Does the witness know that the slide-bar or the cross-head is worn on some of these engines, and that has necessitated the putting in of a brass-liner ? I would, like Mr. Hoyle to specify which he means ;, the slide-bar is one thing, and the cross-head is another. 616. Well, I want to know whether there have been any brass-liners put in to any of the engines to make up for friction since the engines have been running ? Not to my personal knowledge. 617. If such wearing did take place after the engines have been running so short a time, would you con- . sider that a defect in the design of the engines ? No, not considering the mileage they have run. 618. Can the witness say from his experience, considering that the engines came here somewhere about the middle of August last year, that it was according to the usual custom to put brass-liners on after they had been running such a short time? Tes, if there were brass rubbing-pieces in the cross-heads. 619. Does the witness know whether the axle-box has Worn into the boss of the wheel on any occasion ? Tes, some of them have slightly. 620. Will the witness explain to the Commission what is the cause of that ? The numerous curves on the line on which they run. 621. Does witness know whether any other engines in the service have worn in the same way? I am not prepared to answer that question absolutely, I have not measured the wear on other engines. 622. Mr. Brown.] Tou told us in the early part of your examination that the specification was furnished by the Baldwin Company ? Yes. 623. And that it was amended in some form or other the details of which you stated in your evidence ? Tes. 624. Can you furnish the Commission with the specification the Baldwin Company supplied you with, and your {imendment of that specification ? The Commissioners have the specification, and I can furnish you with a copy of our report. 625. Mr. Mddy.] We will try to get them for you. 626. Professor iVarren.] Is not the specification you refer to in the Railway Oaeette of 7th November ? 627. Mr. Eddy.] Would it not be much better to have the specification from vvhich the engine was nctually built? 628. Mr. Brown.] That is what I am referring to ; — I am referring to a specification which was sent out by the Baldwin Company, and which was amended in your ofiice. I want the amended specification and the original specification as well. 629. Mr. Eddy.] I am not sure that I can give you the original specificationi, but I can give you the specification frojn which the engines were built. 6;i0. Mr. Brown.] Tes ; but I think the Commission ought to have before them the specifications that were sent by the Baldwin Company to the Commissioners for Railways. Col. Professor Warren.] Would Mr. Eddy allow you to supply the Commission with a detailed description of all failures such as broken axles, defective draw-gear, parts of running-gear, &c., and the cost of the renewals in detail. Also, the nature and cost of all repairs which have been necessary in the Baldwin engines since their arrival, together with the mileage of each engine which has undergone such repairs, also the weight on the wheels and wheel base of both the Baldwin and the new English engines ? Mr. Eddy.] We will supply you with as much of the information as we possess, though I doubt whether wo can give you the cost of the renewals in detail. THURSDAY, BAIiDWnr LOCOMOTITES INQUIRT COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYIDENCE. 2* TSUB8BAT, 14 AFSIL, 1892. \^The Gommission met at 2 o'clock in the Board Boom, Colonial Secretofry's Office.'] P. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.C, President. Peofessob WAEEEN, M.I.O.E. | ALBXANDEE BEOWJST, Esq., J.P. 632. Mr. Eddy.] Before the Commission enters upon the day's proceedings I would like to say a few. J^. Eddy, words in order that the Eailway Commissioners' action in the inquiry now proceeding may not be mis- ^^^J^JJ understood, as the Eailway Commissioners are unable, in accordance with the President's ruling, to be ^^^^^^^2. represented by counsel at this inquiry, and so have an opportunity of dealing with the cross-examination P • of witnesses in the usual way, I wish to mate the following statement, and I wish it to be understood that I do not question your decision, sir, in the direction in which it has been given, for we consider that on the whole, the course adopted is a wise one. Still, the proceedings are being drawn out a great deal by the admission in evidence of a lot of extraneous matter. Much outside matter is being imported into this inquiry, and in order to save time, we, the Eailway Commissioners, propose not to cross-examine any of the witnesses that Mr. Iloyle may call before him, unless it be tliat some very unfair statement should be made. In such a case we "may perhaps have to request the President to put a question to the witness, but in the ordinary course we do not intend to ask any of Mr. Hoyle's witnesses any question. But subsequently we propose to place before the Commission all the facts that may be necessary to enable them to come to a satisfactory conclusion. Deodatus Hilin Neale, Esq., further examined : — 633. Mr. Hoyle.] I would like to ask Mr. Neale whether he corrected the specifications of the Baldwin Mr. Engine Company ? Tes. D. H. Neale. 634. When doing so, did you provide for the thickness of the tube plate in the smoke-box ? I would ,/7*''frr7^2 like to refer to the specifications before giving an answer to that question. Apr^, 635. Before proceeding any further, I would like to ask you, Mr. President, if it is customary, at an inquiry such as this, for persons to be present at the Board Room who will later on have to be examined as witnesses. Testerday afternoon I noticed that a number of persons were present who must have heard all the evidence then given before the Commission. I wish to know, sir, is this the usual course adopted or not ? 636. President.] This inquiry, Mr. Hoyle, is not being conducted in the same way as the proceedings in a Court of law would be carried out. If it had been, it is quite possible that the latitude which has been allowed in the way you have mentioned would not have been permitted. With regard to the witnesses in this inquiry 1 cannot myself see that there would be any pain effected by sendiug them out, because, as you will have observed, all this evidence, or a great portion of it, is published in the daily Press, and if the witnesses choose they can, to-morrow morning, read the evidence given to-day. Under these circum- stances, I do not see what is to be gained by their leaving the room. In fact, I doubt if I have any absolute power to order them out. The powers under the Act referring to Commissions are very vague in their terms. In Courts of law, witnesses are ordered out of Court, because in cases involving a great conflict of evidence, it is thought advisable that they should not remain in Court, and if a Judge thinks it necessary he can even direct that the proceedings shall not be published, but here at the proceedings of this Commission, I do not khow if any order we may make would be effectual, for I do not know if we have any power to make such an order, neither can I see the practical good of it, even if we had the power, whilst at the same time, I doubt our power. I think it is rather a question of taste for the witnesses themselves to determine whether they should remain or not, and it may perhaps be a matter of observation for you to make, that certain of the witnesses have heard the evidence, if you think they are witnesses of that kind, which would be influenced one iota by what they heard. It is a matter for you to call attention to by-and-bye ; but I do not think I have the power, even if I thought it desirable to order them to leave the room. 637. Mr. Eddy.] I propose to withdraw, sir, because I am simply in a position of witness. 638. President.] I did not understand that your remarks, Mr. Hoyle, applied to Mr. Eddy, I thought they were directed to the engineers and others of the Department present. 639. Mr. Hoyle.] Certainly I did not intend them to apply to Mr. Eddy ; I look upon him as being here in almost a similar position to myself. I have made certain charges, and I am here to prove my case, and I understand that Mr. Eddy, to endeavour to prove me wrong. 640. Professor Warren.] It seems to me very undesirable that any of the witnesses should withdraw. I cannot see that anything will be gained by it. 611. Mr. Eddy.] I was surprised by being put in the position of a witness yesterday; and therefore as the presence of witnesses have been objected to, I thought it would be better for me to withdraw. I am not here from any mere desire to be present. The absence of the Commissioners and officers in the Eailway Department is very detrimental to its management, and the business of the country will suffer in consequence. 642. President.] Mr. Hoyle says that he did not intend his remarks to apply to you, but to the witnesses who are here, and some of whom it seems heard the evidence given yesterday. You have really charge of a case for the Eailway Commissioners ; but I do not understand Mr. Hoyle making any suggestion that you or any of the other Commissioners should withdraw. 643. Mr. Hoyle.] Now Mr. Neale, you stated yesterday that you amended the specifications submitted by the Baldwin Company, did you provide in your revised specifications for the thickness of the tube-plates in the smoke-box ? No, because it varies very little ; it is almost invariable. 644. What is the thickness of the plate in these smoke-boxes, do you know ? No ; I cannot absolutely say ; I should imagine it would be three-quarters of an inch to seven-eights of an inch. 645. Can you not tell mo if the thickness of the smoke-box is different from that of the smoke-boxes in any of the engines running on the lines previous to the arrival of the Baldwin engines ? Not positively. 646. What load do you consider the Baldwin engines ought to carry without the assistance of another engine, going up an incline of 1 in 33, taking into consideration the safety of the draw-gear ? That depends ^ BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION— MIUrTES OF EVIDENCE. ■n i?*w -iepends upon circumstances, and on the position of the gradient. On one gradient of 1 in 33 I yfould D. H. Neale. j^g^^g ^^ objection to put five more waggons than on another grade of 1 in 33. Draw-gear does not break i/7""^rTI^» under a direct strain ; within my experience I do not know that I have ever heard of draw-gear breaking iaApm,j.tjaz. ^j^jjg^ ^ ^j,g^j^ .g g^j^g steadily up an incline however steep, or however heavy the train. Draw-gear breaks from jerks, more frequently in going down than in going up a hill. It is the sudden pull or jerk that breaks it. It is a question of how many jerks it would be subjected to. Tou may go over a piece ot . line with a great number of indentations ; passing over these the draw-gear would be jerked, and perhaps broken. Then again you have to consider whether a breakage of draw-gear will lead to any dangerous ■ consequences under a particular set of circumstances. It may do so, of course. Tor example the train may break away and rush down an incline into another tiain standing at a junction ; or, in another case, ifc might break away and be brought up by another gradient without doing any mischief-. So that the whole question of- danger depends upon circumstances, and I must decline to lay down any general rules what- 647." Frofessor Warren.] Tou mean, Mr. Neale, that when a train comes to a place where there is a sag in the line that may be a likely place for the draw-gear to break on account of the sudden strain put upon it ? Tes ; there would be some strain on it. n • j -i? + 648. Once the engine is on the grade the strain is uniform ? Tes, m the way I have explained. Jixtra heavy brake-vans are used so that it is very improbable that any serious consequences would ensue m the event of the draw-gear breaking, even under the worst conditions. . . . +t, 649. Mr. Soyle.'\ I will now put a very definite question to you, Mr. Neale. Will you state to the Commission what is the load that these engines can take up the Lapstone grade, that is the first incline between Penrith and the bottom points. What is the load of loaded trucks that these engines can pull up that grade ? They can take up twenty unassisted. 650. President.'] That is the 1 in 30 grade ? Tes. - . t + ■ 651. Mr. Hoyle.] I would direct the attention of the Commission to the fact that m the paper i PUt m in evidence yesterday it would be observed that Mr. Neale stated in making up his standard tram that a standard engine, weighing 80 tons, could haul twenty-five loaded trucks. Now, m taking up this train ot twenty loaded trucks you referred to just now, would you want the assistance of an engine behind ; would it be necessary to have an engine to shove behind in order to assist one of the Baldwin engines pulling those twenty loaded trucks up the Lapstone ? It would not be required— that is, from a purely engineering point of view, but in practical working another engine would be desirable. 652. President.'] I take it that you mean for more abundant caution ? Tes, that is what 1 mean. 653. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you say that any jerks take place on an incline ? No, what I say is that they take place on changes of grade. „ , -r j i 4. j. 654. Suppose one of these engines was taking a load up one of the Lapstone grades and steam went down and had to be got up again, and by reason of additional steam being put on would not that cause a jerk? . That would depend upon how the engine was handled. 655. Do not jerks occur on these inclines ? They occur on changes of grade. 656. Now Mr. Neale, I have put a specific grade to you, do not jerks take place on this specific grade .-' No ; I am not aware that jerks do take place on this particular grade. Of course itmight be possible to produce the jerk by a singular combination of circumstances, generally speaking the jerks do not take 657 Professor Warren.] Tou mean that if the steam ran down on ascending a grade, and was then put on suddenly it would cause a jerk ? Tes ; but as a matter of fact the man would stop his engine slowly, keeping his train stretched, and then start steadily again. . 658. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you know when the order was sent to America for the Baldwin engines, whether any letter was sent with it ? Certainly the order was contained in the letter. 659. Who sent the letter ? It was sent by the Secretary to the Eailway Commissioners. 660. Mr. Mdy.] I would like sir, to point out the misleading way in which these questions are put by Mr. Hoyle. Mr. Neale has stated before you that twenty waggons can be drawn up a grade of 1 in 30 by a consolidation engine. He never referred to a grade of 1 in 40, and it is to a grade of 1 in 40 that the paper referred to by Mr. Hoyle has reference. 661. President.] It does not mislead us in the least. 662. Mr. Hoyle.] 1 would like to know, Mr. Neale, whether when you were called upon to advise upon the importation of these locomotives, there Was any meeting between you and any other of&cers of the . Department relative to this matter ? Tes 7 certainly there was. 663. Was it in the form of a conference ? Tes. 664. Where was it held ? In my office. 665. And who were present? The officers present were Mr. Howe, Mr. Stanger, Mr. Loughrey, and myself. 666. Were any of the Eailway Commissioners present ? No ; not in my office. 667. At any conference ? 668. President.] Were the Eailway Commissioners present at any conference between the gentlemen you have named and the Eailway Commissioners, relative to the importation of these engines ? Certainly they were. 669. Mr. Hoyle.] Can you tell us whether at that conference there was any objection raised to the importation of these engines ? 670. President.] Would you be so good as to show the commission, Mr. Hoyle, how these facts affect the inquiry before us. Supposing at that conference there were all kinds of different opinions expressed, the fact still remains that the Baldwin engines were ordered, and what we have to inquire is, as I have frequently stated already, were they were defective and unsuitable to the permanent-way of the Colony, and not capable of doing the work they were expected to do. Supposing there were all kinds of divergences of opinions at the conference, how would that efiect the matter ? 671. Mr. Hoyle.] I think I remember that when a similar statement was made Mr. Eddy said no such conference was held. 672. Mr. Eddy.] No such statement was made by me. 673. President.] Supposing Mr. Eddy had said that there was no such conference, and suppose Jie had Jieen fprgetf ul of th§ ffict, Ijo^ does all that af ect the pi?^tter we have v»de?" inquiry ? ^ ' 674, BALDWIN I0C0M0TIVE3 INQUIEY COMMISSIOIT — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 29- 674. Mr. Soi/le."] Because if tHere was aa officer who opposed the importation of the Baldwin engines I Mr; would like to have him called to state why and upon what grounds he objected to these engines being ^' ^- ^eale. imported. 14 April 1892 675. President.'] Surely if they are defective that is enough in your case, and if they are not it cannot ^ ' make any difference because someone at some time thought that they probably would be defective. 676. Mr. Weale.'] I must object, sir, to assumptions being made about things I never said at all. I have never stated that there was any difference of opinion, and yet Mr. Hoyle speaks as though I had said so. 677. President.'] I think I have said that at all events we do not assume it. 678. Mr. Weale.] As a matter of fact we were perfectly unanimous when we met at my office, and we all signed that report. 679. Mr. RoyLe.] Can you tell us, Mr. Neale, whether any trial was made of these engines last Sunday ? Tes ; between Wallerawang and Mount Victoria. 680. Can you tell us whether any decision has been arrived at to reduce the boiler pressure on these engines ? Not that I am aware of. 681. Mr. Soyle.] I do not think I have any further questions to ask the witness. 682. Mr. Brown.] Ton handed in some specifications yesterday — were they the specifications of the engines you have now ? Tes ; as they were constructed for us. 683. Have you been able to find the other specifications — I mean those which were examined before the engines were ordered ? — 684. Mr. Uddy.] I have handed in to-day — that is, the specifications before Mr. Neale had them altered — the amended specifications were put in yesterday, and the papers dealing with the deviations from the original specifications were handed in on the first day the Commission met. 685. Mr. Moyle.] Did I understand the witness to say yesterday that after the engines arrived in the Colony he did not examine them to see that all the alterations which had been ordered were carried out ? I examined one of the engines, but it is not my duty to examine each particular engine, but as a matter of fact I did, as I say, examine one of the class. 686. Mr. Brown ^ He said that it was no part of his duty to do that particular work-^-that there were special persons appointed for that purpose. 687. Professor Warren.] Could you tell me the maximum weight on the driving wheels of these engines ? I have not seen the engines weighed myself, nor have I conducted the weighing, so that I would prefer not to speak positively about the matter. 688. Mr. Soyle.] (There being some delay in the attendance of the next witness) I have already suggested that it would, perhaps, have been better to have postponed this meeting, as, on account of the holiday and the increased pressure of work in the Department it will be difficult to secure the attendance of witnesses. 689. Mr. Eddy.] I have had to postpone six committees for this meeting of the Commission, and there is a great deal of .work of the railways being put aside and delayed, in consequence of this inquiry. A lot of men are being put off work and a number of workmen are being discharged, such as carpenters and painters, in consequence of our work being delayed. The Commissioners should be on their tour to-day. 690. Mr. Hoyle.] "Well, will the Commissioners consent to adjourn for a time ? 691. Mr. Eddy.] No ; not for a moment. This charge has been hanging too long over the Commissioners. "WiUiam Theodore Poxlee, M. Inst. C.E., Engineer-in-Chief of the Existing Lines of this Colony, being Mr. sworn, said :— W. T. Foxlee, 692. Mr. Eddy.] "Will you kindly ask the witness if he is a member of the Institution of Civil Engineers, ^.J^^^aI*-^' and how long he has been connected with that body. 14 April, 1892. 693. President^ Are you a Member of the Institution of Civil Engineers? How long have you been connected with that body ? About twenty years, that is to say, I have been a member for eight years ; but I have been associated with the institution for about eighteen or twenty years as a Student and Associate and Member. 694. How long have you been in the Eailway Service of thei Colony ? Since the end of Eebruary, 1890. 695. And before that what experience had you in England ? I was connected with the Great Eastern Eailway Company for about four years, and with the London and North-western Company for about twelve or thirteen years, and before that I was with the London and South-western Eailway Company. I began work in 1866, so that I have had from twenty -five to twenty-six yea.rs experience up to the present time ; that is to say, about twenty-four years experience before I came here. 696. Will you tell us what was your last position on the English railways ? I was Eesident Engineer for the Essex Lines of the the Great Eastern Company. 697. Mr. Hoyle.] "Will you kindly tell us when the Baldwin engines arrived in the Colony — do you remember their arrival here ? I do. 698. "Were any orders issued by you or your predecessor Mr. Angus, relative to the alteration of the platforms on the line ? Orders were issued. The question of the alterations to the platforms and structures on the lines was, however, under consideration before I arrived in the Colony. 699. When was the order absolutely issued from your office ? I am not quite certain as to that, but I am certain that it was issued before the Baldwin engines arrived in this Colony. 700. Were the alterations to the platforms actually commenced before the engines arrived in the Colony ? Tes. 701. Can you tell us how long before ? No, I cannot say exactly how long before. 702. Can you give the Commission any information as to how long a time elapsed between the com- mencement of the alterations and the arrival of the first engine ? I believe the alterations to the platforms were actually put in hand during the latter part of May or the beginning of June last year. 703. Was that when the work was commenced. I do not mean when you issued the orders to the divisional engineers to have it done, but I want to know when this work itself was commenced ? I cannot give you the exact date when the work was commenced, but I believe it was about the end of May or the beginning of June of last year. 704. Do you remember that there was a retaining-wall on the eastern side of the Eveleigh station before the work of quadruplicatiow was beguR ? That wall, I believe, was rewoYe'-l tg nipj^e yopw for the quad, ruplication ? Tes, 70g, 30 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQUIBT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIBBNCE. W T r 1 ^*^^~6' ^^^ t^e lines were made, and a new tunnel erected — I mean the stew arch ? Tes. M.Inst.O.B.' ^^'^' T^*^ * ^^^ erected so as to form the eastern platform wall — I mean at the eastern side of the — a' J. ' Eveleigh station ? Tes ; there was a wall there. 14ApriI,i892. ^^^' Was it pulled down, and re-erected a little further back ? You are now referring, I presume, to the side of the new platform next the additional roads ? 709. What I want to know is, was a wall erected to form the eastern wall of that platform ? Tes ; there is a wall there to-day. 710. But after the retaining- wall was pulled down was another wall erected ? Are you referring to the retaining-wall ? 711. No ; the platform wall ? Tes ; there was a wall erected there, and the circumstances were these — there was a slight discrepancy on the side of the widened lines where the wall was built, and a portion of it was pulled down. 712. The whole length of the platform ? Oh, no. 713. How much of it was pulled down ? I cannot say, but I know a slight alteration was made. 714. Was it erected exactly the same distance from the railway as formerly ? I believe it was ; but I think, Mr. Hoyle, you are mixing up two things. We altered the grade under the skew arch, and the alteration of that grade necessitated a slight alteration to the platform wall. I think that is what you have in your mind. 715. When that alteration was made, Mr. Poxlee, do you say that the wall wis pulled down, or was the road only lifted, the earthwork taken down, and the road dropped ? I believe an alteration took place in the wall. To the best of my belief, a portion of it was sloped at the top, instead of being carried level. 716. Tou do not know whether it was erected the same distance from the rails as before ? To the best of my belief it was. 717. Have you plans of the distance the rails next to the station were from the platform — plans which will show the distance between the rails and the platform before the platform was altered ? 718. Mr. Brown.'] What are you seeking to obtain by this cross-examination, Mr. Hoyle ? 719. Mr. Soyle.\ I want to show that a wall was erected before the quadruplieation in widening the line, and subsequently, when the quadruplieation was carried out, that wall had to be demolished. To witness : — Have you any information you can give me relative to these distances. Do you know the distance between the rails and the platform ? I think I have some information here which may me^t what you want. Eveleigh platform, original width from the centre of the road, 4 feet 10^ inches instead of 5 feet. 720. That is to say the platform was Ij- inches nearer the inner rail than it ought to have been ? Yes, it would appear so if this information which refers to the distance between the old platform wall and the old line is correct. 721. Were you aware that these alterations took place to the suburban platforms at a time when it was known that quadruplieation was going to be carried out ? Tes. 722. Will you tejl the Commission why it was that a number of the platforms had to be altered when afterwards they had to be destroyed ? r 723. FreSident.] What has this to do with the matter, Mr. Hoyle ; — what do you wish to show by these facts ? 724. Mr. Soyle.] I wish to show that these alteratioiis had to be made to meet the convenience of these engines. To witness : — Were they not made in view of these engines ? They were made to give the necessary clearance to certain types of existing rolling stock, and also in view of the advent of a large number of Baldwin engines which were being constructed of a similar width. It was, in fact, thought that these platforms should be brought to gauge, so that there should not be any difficulty in working the rolling stock referred to, and also the Baldwin engines. 725. Then the Baldwin engines had something to do with the alterations ? No. It was thought that in view of their coming here these station platforms which were out of gauge should be put to gauge. 726. Tou had the Baldwin engines in view then ? Oh, certainly we had them in view. 727. Mr. Eddy^ Since so much has been said about the platforms and their cost I think it would be well if the Commission would ask the witness how much the cost really was. 728. Mr. Brown.'] We had it in evidence. 729. Mr. Uddy.] That applies to alterations to the whole of the railways, but so much has been said about alterations first being made and afterwards demolished on account of the quadruplieation that it would be well to have the cost given in these instances. 730. President.] What platforms were altered, Mr. Eoxlee, which were subsequently removed ? 731. Mr. Foxlee.] There were Newtown, Ashfield, and also a slight alteration at Macdonaldtown. 732. Mr. Hoyle.] And Granville. 733. Mr. Foailee.] That has not been removed, although it has been altered. 734. Mr. JEddy.] G-ranville has not been removed. Can you give the Commission the cost of alterations , made to platforms that have since been removed ? 735. Mr. Foxlee.] At Macdonaldtown the cost was about £7 ; at Newtown, about £10 ■ and at Ashfield about £20. 736. Professor TFarren.] That makes £37 in all— that is the cost of the alterations to the platforms which have "been removed ? Tes; 737. President.] I understand that what Mr. Hoyle wants to show is, what useful purpose was served by altering the platforms at a time when it was known they would subsequently be demolished. Then I understand from you that there are only three stations at which this was the case ? Tes. ' 738. Mr. Hoyle.] I have asked the witness if they had the Baldwin engines in view when these alterations were made ; the witness said yes. 739. Mr. Foxlee.] We undoubtedly knew they were coming. 740. President.] What I understand Mr. Foxlee to mean is that looking at some of the engines here and knowing that other engines of similar gauge were coming, they— the Commissioners— bearing both these thmgs m mmd, made the alterations to the platforms so that the traffic might not be obstructed 741. Mr. Foxlee.] Might I explain this point a Utile further ; the Chief Commissioner has pointed out that the Commissioners found on taking office that a large numbei- of the structures on the railways were out of gauge. Early m 1889 directions were given that the whole question of gauge should be taken in hand. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVJIS IKQtJIBT COMMISSION — MITfUTRS OP EVIDBKCE. SI hand, as the Commissioners felt themselves very much hampered in working the traffic since certain stock ^- Y'^' was restricted to certain portions of the line, and so it vyas determined to take the whole question in hand ^ ?„ t C E and ascertain what it would cost to bring the whole of the structures to the correct gauge. J-^^aJ^ ' 742. President.] That is to say, the gauge originally laid down ? Tes. 14Aprilj 1892. 743. Mr. loxlee.] Early in 1889, men were sent out to measure all structures, bridges, retaining-wallsi, lamp and signal-posts, and other works, as many as 8,000 or 10,000 measurements being taken over our 2,200 miles of road. That, of course, took a considerable time, and it was not till March, 1891, that we got the information, and that information when. put in this form showed at once to the Commissioners that what they had learned was true, viz., that many platforms and other structures were grievously out of gauge. Tor example, the platform at one station was at the top 3 feet -J-inch from the inner edge of the rail to the outer edge of the platform ; at another station it was 2 feet 5^ inches ; in ano,ther, 3 feet i-inch, and so on ; the standard distance being 2 feet 9 inches ; there was in fact no kind of uniformity. 744. Mr. Brown.'] Is it not necessary under the Board of Trade in England, that there should be some sort of uniformity observed in the various railway lines with regard to these matters P Tes ; under the Board of Trade there is a standard distance of 2 feet 4 inches from the side of the widest vehicles above the top of the doors to the nearest standing work above platform level. 745. And you desire to conform in this Colony to that rule ? Tes, as far as the existing structures will permit. What the Commissioners desire is to establish a rule here similar to the rule imposed by the Board of .Trade in England, as far as practicable. 746. President.] This rule was only the result of what was found to be necessary for regulating the rail- ways in England ? Tes. Before a railway is opened in England it is submitted to a very rigid inspectioti by the Board of Trade Officials — the bridges are examined wiih great care ; the heaviest engines are taken over the lines and bridges, each being tested by one of the Board of Trade officials ; the workmanship is carefully examined, as well as the whole of the structures. The clearance of bridges and other structures is ascertained by taking the widest rolling stock over the line, opening the doors, and taking them past the piers and retaining walls, and thoroughly testing the clearance. The inspection before lines are allowed to be opened being most rigid. 747. President.] Is there any similar authority to the Board of Trade in this Colony ? Tes ; the Commissioners have instituted a similar system here. 748. Therefore, the inspection made by the Board of Trade in England is made here by the Oommisioners themselves. 749. Mr. JSddy.] I will explain. The Commissioners put themselves in the position of the Board of Trade — and we lay down regulations for our own officers. That is what the Board of Trade do at home. 750. President.] They take upon themselves the responsibility of seeing that the rules of the Board of Trade in England are made applicable here. 751. Mr. JEbxlee.] Tes ; and that refers to the structures also in England. Before the Board there will allow a line to be opened for traffic, it requires that the rules laid down with regard to stresses on bridges and other structures have been complied with. 752. Professor Warren.] Otherwise the line would not be passed? Quite so. 758. And your evidence goes to sho^v that these lines in their then condition would never have been passed ? Undoubtedly — never in the world. The measurements we commenced in 1889 were only completed in March of last year ; the whole had to be tabulated — so that there was not much time lost, since as already btated, we started the alterations at the end of May or beginning of June. 754. Mr. Hoyle.] Is it a fact that men were employed on nightwork, and also on Sunday to make these alterations ? It may or may not be — all I know is, that I gave no such instructions. 755. Is it a fact that they were kept at work as I have described ? I do not know. 756. President.] Supposing that they were at work night and day^ — why should not this course have been taken — surely the quicker the work was done the better, if it were necessary. I do not see the utility of your question. 757. Mr Soyle.] It seems that there was no danger in passing the station — the platforms were simply out of uniformity, but they did not strike the carriages. 758. Mr. Uddy.] I have before referred to the case of the carriage out of which a slice had to be taken in order to make it run past the platforms. 759. Mr. Brown.] Ton wish, I suppose Mr. Hoyle, to show that the Baldwin engines were responsible for these works being taken in hand? 760. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes, and that men were kept at work night and day upon the alterations. (To witness) : Do you know that men worked night and day on these works and on Sundays also ? They may have done, you will remember that this work had been under consideration for a long time, as far back as '89. 761. Mr. Uddy.] Ton will remember, sir, that I gave evidence that a large number of platforms were altered to the extent of several inches in 1879, on the "Western line. 762. Mr. Hoyle.] As no danger existed to the rolling stock, and the traffic could be carried out by ordinary day work, will the witness say why men were kept at work day and night and on Sundays ? 763. Mr. Eddy.] I would like to point out that the witness is being made to say things that he did not say, he simply said that he did not know that they had being kept at work in the manner described, and now Mr. Hoyle is assuming that the witness admitted that they were kept working at night and on Sundays. lie is also assuming that the witness said that there was no danger to the rolling stock. 764. Mr. Hoyle.] 1 said that it had been stated that the men were kept working as I have said. 765. Mr. Brown.] Mr. Eddy, pray do not so far as you can help interrupt the examination. 766. President^ I suppose that really the reason why Mr. Eddy has interrupted is lest these statements might go forth to the public, otherwise it would not have mattered ; such statements will not have the slightest effect upon me. I shall endeavour to find out for myself what the facts are, but I understood Mr. Eddy referred to the question lest it should go forth to the public, and he therefore desired to put the matter in a way which would not cause undue alarm. 767. Mr Hoyle.'] Do you know that at any time after the arrival of the Baldwin engines that one of these engines was taken down the South Coast line, and it was run past the platforms on that line as a trial ? I believe there was an engine taken down the South Coast line — it may have been as a trial. 768. Were there any alterations made to the road after that ? I am under the impression that one or two of the platforms were altered that were slightly out of gauge. 769. 32 BAlBWra LOCOMOTIVES INQOTRT COMMISSIOK— MINTITES OF EVIDENCE. . Mr. W. T. 769. Was it in consequence of the closeness witt which these engines ran to the platforms, were these ^oxlee, alterations made immediately after the trial ? I believe one of the engines was taken down the Ime m M. Inst. C.E. jj^^gj. ^^ ascertain if there was a proper clearance of the platforms. I beheve alterations were made to lITriTlsga *^® platforms at some of the stations which were not to gauge. No alteration would have been necessary ^" ' ■ if they had been in conformity with the standard gauge. ■, ■, . c ^^ 770. Fresident.] When were the railway platforms built, were they done during the consulship of the present Commissioners ? No. . -n> j. . o -t? . • r .t. 771. Mr. Soyle.'\ Were these platforms built by the Construction Department!' Tes; a portion oi them were built by the Construction Department. . -r. ^ j_ n -n- 772. Do you say this work passed through the hands of the Construction Department ? Tes ; a portion 773.' STou only discovered that they were out of gauge when this engine passed through ? I did not say 774." Were any measurements made as to the gauge of these particular platforms that the engine passed ? I beUeve so. Measurements were taken, and amongst them occur the following : Kiama Z tt. /j m., Shell Harbour 2 ft. 8 in., Dapto 2 ft. 7i in., Bulli 2 ft. SJ in., Helensborough 2 It. 8 in. 775. Mr. Soyle.-] Will you tell me the date on which these measurements were taken i' ihey were taken before the Baldwin engines came here, they were completed by March, 1891. tu- <. +t, 776. Then why did you send an engine down-did you have any doubts about the matter i- iNot the slightest doubt ; we sent the engine down because it was the easiest practicable way ot nndmg out ii the necessary clearance existed. . i i. j i.i, 777. Before tHs engine went down to try the platform, were the alterations made before the new engine was put on the line ? I am not prepared to say that they were ; I am not quite sure about that ; they may or may not have been. . j. i t <- +i, 778. When the engines were standing at the platforms were any measurements taken, i want the distance of the cylinder from the platform ? I cannot tell you ; I did not take the measurements myselt 779. Now, if an engine in passing at a slow rate of speed and clearing the platform would it also clear it when travelling at a high rate of speed ? I do not know-^it might. 780. Would not the oscilation make a difierence ? . . . n c -tt- 781. Fresident.'] Is there more oseilation when the train is going fast than when it is going slow .'' las. 782. Mr. Sot/le.] Tou never tried the experiment in the case of these engines? No, but as practical men, when making lines of railway we know that a train rushing past at a high rate ot speed will probably oscilate, and therefore we make an allowance to meet this. o -c- 783. Mr. JSoyle.'l Tou had these platforms altered so that I understand no danger would occur ^ ies ; thev were altered. • ■ ii i, -it i 784. Was it on account of the oscillation, Mr. Poxlee ? No, but because they were ongmaLy built to the wrong gauge. • i, * j.i, 785. Did you ever hear whether any of the cabs to these engines came into contact with any ot the stations on the line ? I know that some of the cabs of the new engines are not wider than some of the carriages on the lines. i c t • n 786. Did any strike the platforms between Sydney and Kiama or Sydney and Newcastle ? 1 occasionally have reports of verandahs having been struck, on account of their not having been built to the proper gauge, but I really cannot say whether it was due to the engines being at fault or not ; I should not think so, because we have stock as wide over all as the cabs of any of the Baldwin engines. 787. Professor Warren.^ You might put in the dimensions of the engines that were wider than the Baldwin engines. 788. Mr. Koyle.'] Of the cylinders also. Tou might give their dimensions ? The 304 class of engine is the same width as the Baldwin engines were ordered over their cylinders. 789. Professor Warren.'} Mr. Hoyle has stated that he would like to see dimensions of the cylinders in order that he might see "how high they were ; I think it would be as well to put in those dimensions. 790. Mr. Foxlee.'] I will have that done. 791. Mr. Brown.'] How many of that class 304 have you ? I do not know. 792. Professor IVarren.] With regard to the weight of the wheels, particularly the weight of the driving- wheel, what should be the minimum weight on the rail, do you know, as a matter of fact, the weight on the driving-wheels of the Baldwin locomotives. 793. Mr. Soyle.'] Will you have the total weights of both the passenger and consolidation engine put in ? 794. Professor fFarren.] 14 tons 7 cwt,, that appears to be the weight on the trailing wheel of the passenger engine under the cab. 795. Mr. Soyle."} What is the weight on the driving wheel ? 796. Professor Wmrren.'] There is one 15 tons 6 cwt. I see, and there is another 15 tons 9 cwt. in the consolidation engine. 797. Mr. Soyle^ Have you the weights on both sides. Professor ? Tes. 798. Do they tally? Tes. 799. Mr. Brown.} The total weight including steam and coal capacity you mean ? Tes. SOO. Professor TVarren.} I see that the weight on the front wheel of the consolidation engine is 5 tons 16 cwt. ; on the first of the driving wheels, 13 tons 17 cwt. ; on the second of the driving wheels, 13 tons 14 cwt. ; on the third of the driving wheel, 15 tons 9 cwt., and on the trailing wheel, 16 tons 15 cwt. 801. Mr. Brown.} These diagrams {produced') are by Mr. Thow, had you not better call him. 802. Professor fFarren.} Assuming the weights to be as quoted, do you consider a 71-lb. rail to be heavy enough with the spacing we have in our permanent way ? Tes, for safety, but we prefer an 80-lb. rail because it is more economical j you get nearly double the wear out of an 80-lb. rail that you do out of a 71-lb. raU. 803. Mr Brown.] Then the life of the one rail is double that of the other ? Tes, and it only costs about £111 more per mile for our road, laid with the heavier rail ; and then we have also to take into considera- tion the saving in maintenance, as we get a stiffer road, and it follows, of course, where you have a better road there is less wear and tear on both rail and rolling stock. 804. Professor 'Warren.} Do you know the maximum weight on [the driving-wheels of the engines that are in use here ? There are some heavier i,n the colonies than the Baldwin engines ; 16 tons 7 cwt. is the heaviest here. 805. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTTIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 33 805. Mr. Hoyle.] Are those on the suburban tank engines ? Tes. On the London and North Western Mr. Eailway the weight of rail used to be 70 lb., then we increased it to 84 lb„ and just as I was leaving ^- j^g^_°gg' England they were rolling 90-lb. rails, and now they are putting down some 100-lb. rails ; the tendency all the ^J__^^^^^ ' world over is towards the adoption of a heavier rail. ISTot by compulsion of the state, but because i4April,1892. companies find it more economical to do so. This is the case on the continent of Europe and also m America, not because it is safer, but because it is cheaper; and the whole tendency is in thatdireetion. In Belgium, 105-lb. rails are used ; in Germany the weight of rails has increased from 60 to 70 lb., and up to 80 lb. ; and in France from 60 to 86 lb. The use of heavier rails saves in maintenance, more wear is got out of them, and a saving is effected in repairs to rolling stock. Universal experience shows that the heavier rails are more economical. "With increased speed and increased weight of stock it is found cheaper to get heavier rails. , _ . 806. Mr. Iloyle.'] Is there not some rule observed by engineers as to what is a safe weight in an engine to carry on a certain rail ? If there is one thing more than another that is decided by experience only it is the details of permanent way. Tou might, for instance, calculate to an ounce the breaking weight of a rail resting upon supports at any given distance apart, but as in practice the supports {i.e. the sleepers) yield under the weight of passing trains, the calculation would be of no practical value. 807. Professor Warren.'] It is a fact that the rail-head wears, and that you put more metal into it than is actually necessary for strength ? Tes. 808. The actual carrying weight has nothing to do with it ? Nothing at all. 809. Mr. Soyle.'] Has not the weight of the engine anything to do with the size of the rail ? I do not s'ay that. I say we do not reduce our rail to such dimensions that they are only safe to carry the rolling stock placed upon them. We know by experience what the weight of the rails should be in proportion to the weight of the rolling stock they have to carry. 810. Do you consider it would be safe to run a Baldwin consolidated engine at a high rate of speed over the Wagga Wagga viaduct ? What do you call a high rate of speed ? 811. Say 40 miles an hour ? No ; certainly it would not be. 812. Then it would not be safe to put the Baldwin engine at a rate of 40 miles an hour over the Wagga Wagga viaduct ? Certainly not, nor any other engine ; it would be a most mad thing to do. 813. Then at what rate of speed would you permit it to pass over that viaduct ? All trains pass over the viaduct at a speed of 10 miles an hour, excepting where repairs are going on, when it is reduced to 4 miles an hour. 814. Have there ever been trains at a higher rate pass over it ? Oh, yes ; when it was built thirteen or fourteen years ago it was in a different condition. 815. President^ I know something about that viaduct. It is a place where considerable caution is required. 816. Mr. Foxlee.] Since this viaduct was constructed the weight of stock has considerably increased, and consequently does not give the same margin of safety as we should provide if we were building a new viaduct. The Wagga Wagga viaduct is one of the early structures. 817. President.'] The rate you now go over is, I presume, a safe one to the public ? Tes ; perfectly safe. 818. Mr. Soyle.] Would it be safe for these engines to pass over the bridge at a high rate of speed at Penrith — say 35 or 40 miles, or (say) even 20 miles an hour ? Tes ; I should think so. 819. Would it be safe for an engine weighing a hundred tons to pass over those viaducts ? I think it would be perfectly safe to take one of the Baldwin engines over the Penrith viaduct at 20 miles an hour ; but we have lowered the speed, inasmuch as we do not think it desirable to strain the girders unduly. It is one of the oldest bridges in the Colony. There is not the same margin of strength there as would be allowed in building a new one, and so we reduce the speed. By that we do not say that it is unsafe. 820. Mr. Proton.] But I understand you to say that the Baldwin engines are perfectly safe for the railways of New South Wales ? Tes ; I think so. 821. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you say that the Baldwin engines running on a 7l-lb. rail, and at a high rate of speed a perfectly safe ? I do. 822. By running at a high rate of speed would the extra employment of men be required ? Asa matter of fact we have not increased the strength of our gangs. 823. But you have not been running the Baldwin engines long ? Well, as a matter of fact, wherever they are running we have not increased our gangs. 824. Have you found it necessary to effect any repairs of a more than ordinary character ? No : the effect of these engines on our roads is much less injurious than that of two engines coupled together, which was the method adopted for working the traffic before the introduction of these engines. I have had a very careful watch kept as to the effect of these engines on the road, and the unanimous report has been that they have a much less injurious effect upon the permanent way, and that there is much less wear and tear than with two engines coupled together. 825. President.] Are the rails in one part of the line the same distance from each other as in another part of the line? No. 826. They are not uniform in that ? There is no uniformity at all. 827. I cannot understand why all these platforms were originally of a different gauge ; — are the different points on each side of the line uniform ? No ; there is no uniformity about them. 828. Here is a platform on one side^ — take Burwood for example — being the station that I know the best — here is the up line, there is the down line ; — these two platforms are a certain distance from each other ? They are. 829. Does not that distance obtain all the way through suburban stations ? No ; it varies in every station, and in the majority of cases the distance of each rail varies from the platform. 830. Ought they not to be the same distance from the platforms ? Tes. , 831. But, as I understand you, the platforms as well as the rails vary ? Tes. 832. Where it is only a few inches even, it could not be through bad plate-laying or anything of that kind — by bad plate-laying I mean when the rails have been replaced in the course of repair ? No ; it is impossible. 833. The structures were badly built at first ? Tes ; every man seems to have gone upon his own bent. 834. Professor Warren.] There is no uniformity ? No uniformity at all. 835. President.] Was that not a most serious thing ? Tes ; a most serious thing. 6— E 836. 34 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION— MINrTES OP ETIDENCE. ._. -^- 836. Somebody, I suppose, understood railway management when this was done ; I cannot understand a jj"-^J°^|f' thing like that;— it strikes me as being a serious matter? Part of the work was carried out by the ^l..,^_^J^_^ ■ Construction Department, and generally that work was to gauge, though 1 have mentioned a few instances 14April,1892. ^^ which it was not. Then on the other lines, a number of structures were carried out by the Existing • :' ■ Lines officers. 837. I want to know this ; — was the difference in gauge confined only to _ the line between Sydney and Parramatta, because that was the first portion of the' New South "Wales railways to be constructed, and I could have understood it on that account ? No ; the want of uniformity exists throughout the lines. I was going to explain that I am informed that certain parts of the work were carried out by the Existing Lines Branch, and others by divisional and other engineers connected with the Existing Lines Branch, a.nd that it was structures put up by this Branch that were generally at fault. 838. Mr. Brown.']. The immunity from accident that has prevailed in the past would probably have prevailed all along, so that as I understand it the alterations have been carried out according to your evidence merely as a matter of uniformity as far as the Department is concerned. 839. Mr. JECoi/le.'] I took the South Coast line as an example, because it is one of the last lines constructed, and the platforms there were built by the Construction Department. I would like to ask Mr. Eoxlee what is the extent of the double line on the Illawarra railway ? The double line extends as far as Waterfall. 840. Beyond that there is a single track ? Tes. 841. Do you know whether any of these platforms were chipped or cut in any way beyond Waterfall, or whether the line was set back inasmuch as it was a single line ? Speaking generally, and without accurate data respecting each particular platform, you may take it from me that if it was possible to slew the road, that would be done, but if there Was anything to prevent the road being slewed, we should naturally cut the platform. 842. As it was only a single line, what would prevent you slewing it in every instance ? Take Otford, for instance — although I am not sure that any alteration was effected there — you have a curve of 10 chains radius between the station and the tunnel, and it would have been impossible to slew the line in that instance. You have a 10-chain curve already, and if you slewed it over you would cripple your curve. 843. Is that an isolated case ? No ; but if you will give me any case in which we have chipped a platform instead of slewing the road, and I can tell you why it was done. 844. But was not the platform built in accordance with the orders of the Construction Department ? I believe so. 845. If that was so, have you any reason to believe that the rails had not really moved in towards the station ? As I have already stated, I am not quite sure whether any alteration was made at Otford at all, but speaking generally, it is quite possible that where the rails were found too near a platform, they had become slewed from their original position, and in that case we should give them the necessary clearance by slewing them back. 846. And all that was done after the Baldwin engines, to which reference has been made, went down the line ? That I am not prepared to say. 847. Can you give us the date upon which the engine went down the South Coast line, and also the date upon which the platforms were altered? I will find that out for you. Mr. W-Thow. 14 April, 1892 Thirty-two years. Tes, and a member South of the Institute of William Thow, Chief Mechanical Engineer, called in and sworn : — • 848. president.'] How long have you held your present position ? Nearly three years. 849. What had you been before that ? I was twelve and a half years in a similar position in Australia, and before coming to South Australia I was with Sir John Eowler for five and a half years, ' Connected with his office in Westminster. Previous to that I was at Crewe, in the London and North- western Bailway works, and in one or two contract shops — Diibs', of Glasgow, and the Worcester Engine Works, as draughtsman. 850. So altogether how many years' experience have you had ? 851. Are you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? Mechanical Engineers also. 852. Mr. Soi/le.'] I would like to ask Mr Thow this question : You were not in the Colony, were you, when the order was sent to America for Baldwin engines ? No. 853. You had gone to England, I understand, in connection with some business for the Department? Tes. 854. Was that business connected with the Baldwin engines ? No. 855. Did you visit the Baldwin works in America, on your way back to Sydney ? Tes. 856. Did you see the engines that have been brought into the service from the Baldwin Works, when they were under construction ? No, I only saw some of the material. No parts of the engines were put together. Some of the materials were delivered, and they were beginning to put them together. For instance, they had none of the boilers put together, though they had some of the boiler plates ready for being put together. 857. Were you consulted as to the importation of these engines ? I could not be consulted; I was not in the Colony at the time. 858. But was the importation of these particular engines suggested to you before you left the Colony ? No. 859. Tou never heard anything about their importation at all ? Not until I was in England. 860. What instructions did you receive in England in regard to them ? To look up the Baldwin people when I passed through America, and to see how they were getting on, and to advise them with regard to our particular features. 861. Was that communication sent to you iii the form of a letter or a cablegram ? I think I had both. 862. President.'] What was the purport of the cablegram ? Simply to call at the works and see how they were getting on with the order, and there were also some particulars sent to ine of the order by letter, I remember that distinctly. 863. Mr. Iloyle.'] Will you state what those particulars were ? I cannot ; I have not looked into the matter since-; however I can ascertain that for you later on. 861. Was this the first intimation you had with regard to the Baldwin engines ? Tes. 865. Had you been consulted in regard to this particular engine before you left for England— would you have advised the Department to bring them here ? That would have depended upon circumstances entirely. §66. BAlDWm lOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MOrTES OF ETIDENCE. 35 866. But would you, as Locomotive Engineer, have consented to an order similar to this ? I say that . Mr,, , would depend entirely upon circumstances. The circumstances are these. If we required the engines at ^- Thow. once, and the Baldwin people were the only people who could deliver them in time, then I should say we f ^TTI^o must Ro to the Baldwin people for them. 14April,1892. 867. Do you then consider these engines were not required ? "When ? 8(58. At the time you were in England ? Certainly not. 869." President.'] "When did you leave New South "Wales to go to England ? I think it was on the 10th August, 1890. ^ 870. At that time the Baldwin engines were not ordered ? They were certainly not ordered. 871. "When did you hear in England that they had been ordered P I think at about the middle of October or the end of October, I think that would be about the time I got the first intimation. 872. Mr. Soyle.'] When did you get that cablegram — was the intimation you have referred to sent by by that ? No, I do not know that I got that by cable ; there were certain messages sent to me, but I thing they arrived either when I was in America, or just about the time I was leaving England for America. 873. Mr. Uddy.'] You have ruled, Sir, previously that you would not admit evidence in regard to the necessity of these engines, and as this question is dealing purely with the necessity of these engines I presume you will not admit it. 874. President.'] I take it that these questions jire coming to the point of whether the engines are suit- able to the permanent way. I take it that is what Mr. Hoyle is coming to. 875. Mr. Eddy.] He has been asked whether he would have ordered them — that is a question for the EaUway Commissioners and not for Mr. Thow. 876. President.'] Tou are quite right there, Mr. Eddy. 877. Mr. Soyle.] Since you have returned to the Colony have you examined these engines ? Yes. 878. "WiU you state to the Commission your opinions upon them ? In what respect ? 879. First let me ask you whether these engines were the cause of any correspondence between yourself aud the Eailway Commissioners upon your return ? I do not think so. 880. Have you had any correspondence with them ? Oh, I have reported to them the results obtained from the engines. 881. But did you make any comments to the Commissioners as to the suitability or unsuitability of the engines ? 882. President.] If you can prove by this witness that he himself thinks them unsuitable, and get him to give his reasons for doing so, that will be of much more use than anything he may have said to the Com- missioners. Questions regarding anything he ha,s said to the Commissioners would be put solely for the purpose of cross-examining him if he were a hostile witness and had said something at variance with the statements he had made to the Commissioners. 883. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you examine the engines ? Yes, I saw them being erected. 884. Did you examine their parts ? Yes, I examined all tlieir parts. 885. Do you know what the specifications for these engines contained ? I think I have seen the specifi- cations. 886. When you were examining these engines, had you the specifications before you to see that all the details were carried out ? I think I had. 887. And were the specifications carried out ? I believe they were. 888. Did you find any defects in the engines ? In what respect ? 889. In any respect ? When they had been at work we found that the axles gave trouble. 890. Were the axles examined by you before they ran ? Yes. 891. Did you consider these engines suitable for the work they had to do ? Certainly; they are suitable for hauling heavy loads. 892. What is your opinion about the wheels of these engines — in any engine you design would you have put similar wheels ? All my practice has been English practice. These are American engines. 893. Would you put such a kind of wheel as this on an engine ? I would not specify American wheels for English engines. All my practice has been amongst English engines. 894. Have you any objection to state why you would not specify American wheels ? Merely because I would be putting different parts of different engines altogether, which would be very unusual. I should certainly try as far as I could to make a uniform machine. 895. But would you put a wheel on an engine you had designed as light as these wheels are? In what respect, are they light ? 896. The spokes and the bosses of the wheels are light ? I would make stronger spokes. 897. Tou do not think that these spokes are strong enough ? I said I would put stronger spokes in a wheel that I was designing. 898. President.] That is to say if you were building an engine for yourself, but take this engine ? If Mr. Hoyle wants to know if I have seen any breakages in the wheels of the Baldwin engines, I say at once that I have not. 899. But are you in a position to say the wheels are defective in any way, are the wheels too light for the ]'est of the engine ? I have not seen any defects in the wheels in the form of breakages. The wheels, I admit at once, are manufactured very roughly, they are very rough pieces of forged work, but that they are defective and not strong enough for the work they have to do, I am not prepared to say. 900. You mean to say that they are not so well finished as the wheels on English locomotives generally are ? They are not so well finished as wheels that come out of an English workshop. 901. Professor Warren.] It has been said that these wheels have been made by an adaptation of an old process, that was stated in evidence yesterday; — do you consider that process suitable for the manufacture of wheels ? The process is somewhat similar to a process worked for a long time at Eotherham for carriage and waggon wheels. It is a stamp process. The spokes are made of rolled-iron, and they put the hub of the wheels on to the spokes in two pieces, and place the whole thing in a furnace, taking it out at a welding heat and pressing it together by hydraulic presses, or with large steam-hammers. 902. Have you any objection to the process ? 1 think it is a very good process for the production of this particular wheel. 903. "i/r. Hoyle.] But do you consider the wheel heavy enough in the spokes to carry the weight it has to carry in these engines ? If it were not heavy enough we should have seen signs of its giving way, and, as a matter of fact we have not detected anything ami&is with the wheels. 904. 36 BALDWIN LOOOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. Mr. 904. You have not detected any defects in them ? We have not detected any defects in this particular lix'^rm2 ^^^" ^^^ y°^ ^®® ^^ ^^^^ *^^* broke on a train as it was coming into Sydney Eailway Station ? Tes ; ' ■ within a few minutes of its breaking. 906. Were any tests made ? Tes. 907. Can you give any reason why the axle broke ? Tes ; my opinion is that it broke because it was of very bad material. 908. Was it through over-heating ? I do not think so. The heating that it did receive would no doubt increase the weakness of the axle. It would no doubt cause it to give way a little sooner than it would have done had it been quite cold. 909. Was the axle twisted in any way ? No, it was a clean break. In extension of that answer, I may say that there is no doubt that the axle had made a clean break, but that the two surfaces had for a few seconds rubbed together, which might have produced an appearance of twisting. There was no doubt an appearance of twisting, but that would be due, I think, to the fact of the parts rubbing together. 910. Were there any other axles broken? Tes ; .three bogie axles and two tender axles broke. 911. In Sydney, or whilst the trains were in motion? A tender axle broke in Newcastle. One of the bogie axles broke in Sydney, one at Tass, and one at Junee. 912. And when you previously examined these axles, had you any reason to believe that they were unsafe ? No, none whatever.- 9l;{. Can you, as an engineer, tell us why, in your opinion, it was necessary to put into the bogies larger axles than the original iron axles — that is, when they were replaced by steel axles ? Because it has always been my practice to use larger axles. 914. And you bored out the boss of the wheel ? Tes. 915. To admit of larger axles ? Tes. 91 6. That weakened the boss, I suppose ? It would make it slightly weaker. 917. And when that was done a face was put on the wheel, and a wrought-iron ring round the boss ? Tes. I have a tracing here which will explain matters. {Tracing exhibited.) 918. Do you consider that to he a safe practice ? A very safe practice. Let me explain. This is the hub of the wheel. The hole, previous to the boss being bored out, was 5 inches in diameter. We bored it to 6 inches in diameter to admit the new axle ; then we turned the outside edges of the boss, and shrank on a pair of rings to hold the wheel together in the event of its giving way. 919. Professor Warren.'] To compensate for the material that you cut away in boring out for the larger diameter ? Tes, but especially to hold' the wheel in the event of its giving way. This being a cast-iron boss it would fracture without giving any warning, or at all events with very little warning, but by having the rings shrunk on in this way, if a fracture did take place it would hold together. This wheel is not like a coupled wheel ; it is simply a roller, and has nothing to do but to roll along the line and carry the weight which may be transmitted from the axle. 920. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you know upon which train the axle broke, was it on the Northern express ? Tes, on the Newcastle train quite close to the Sydney platform. 921. The train was going at a low rate of speed ? Very low. 922. What would have been the result if the train had been travelling at the rate of 30 mUes an hour ? It is very difficult to say. 923. Do you mean to say that it would have turned the engine over ? It is a very difficult thing to speculate upon. It is a very nasty accident to happen, and I should not like to see it happen again any- where. 924. Since the engines have been running, do you know whether the repairs to them have been very great? They have been rather heavy, not particularly so. 925. Do you think the repairs that have been done to these engines are greater than they ought to have been considering the mileage run ? They are greater than the repairs to some of the engines that we have, but not greater than the repairs to others. 926. But are they greater than they ought to have been to a new engine running at the rate these engines have been running ? It all depends upon the type of engine. 927. Professor Warren.'] Tour experience is mostly in reference to English engines. Suppose we compare engines of the English and American types, in a majority of them would you have required to expend as much money upon repairs in a similar length of time provided of course that the English engines were a similar size, and had been running the same mileage ? No, I do not think that we should. 928. There would be a considerable difference you think ? No, there might not be a very considerable difference, but I do not think that under similar circumstances English engines would have come into the shop so often as these have. 929. It is rather early in the day to talk about repairs, is it not ? Tes ; that is what I say. It will take years before we can compare the costs of these engines with the cost of English engines. Engines are not worn out in a very short time, and it is not an uncommon thing for all engines to come into the shop more or less when first they begin to run ; they have to shake down to their work, and there are several little details that must be attended to in order to bring them to their proper bearings. 980. Do you consider that the bearing service is sufficient in the axle-box ? In the driving or coupled axle-boxes certainly it is ample. 931. Tou are speaking now of the engines? Tes. In the coupled axles the bearing surfaces are excellent. I would have preferred more in the bogie if I had designed the engines. 932. Was that the reason why you increased the diameter of the axle ? Tes. 933. Not to give greater strength to the axle, but to give more bearing area ? Tes ; because they were running hot. 934. You consider that the chief cause of heating was the want of bearing space ? No ; I consider that it was the dirt that was in the axle. Tl;e axle had not been fairly worked ; the dirt had not been sufficiently squeezed out. when the metal was in a malleable state, and the consequence was that it was continually oozing out when the axle was at work, and irritating the brass bearings. If they had been made of excellent material I think they might have been runniug to-day. 935. Torkshire scrap? Tes ; Torkshire scrap or any other clean material. 936. Do you think the lubrication was suHcient ? Tes ; I do not think it was for want of oil that these axles gave trouble. ggy BALDWIN IiOCOMOTITES INQriBT COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 37 037. Have you made any experiments in that direction ? Tes ; we tried several methods o£ improving Mr. the axles before they were changed. "We put on additional oil boxes in the hope that in that way we Thow. could remedy- the defect. 14a'"'t1892 938. You tried to improve the axles ? Tes ; we tried several plans of getting the axles to run cool ^ ' before they broke, and it was a mystery to me why they did not run cool ; I could not understand it until we pulled the material apart in the testing machine and then the secret was revealed. 939. President.'] And that was the very bad stuff that had been put into the axles ? Tes ; it was inferior material, there is no doubt about that. 940. Very inferior material to put into such an important part of a locomotive? I think so. 941. Mr. Brown.] Could any reasonable supervision or care have prevented this - accident ? No; the only means of knowing what was in the axle was to pull it to pieces in the testing machine or to break it by the drop test. 942. And that is not a usual thing to do, is it ? Oh dear, no ; it would destroy the axles. 943. Professor Warren.] Tou do not mean that if the axles had been properly made, whether of iron or steel, you would be liable to have a bad accident. Tou would not expect a Torkshire scrap or steel axle to turn out badly ? We do not find that to be the case. 944. Axle material should be the finest and best that can he produced? Tes ; it certainly should. 945. Mr. Broion.] No inspection or supervision on the part of yourself or anybody else in the Eailwav Department could have prevented this accident to the axle ? No ; it would have been impossible to tell that the axles were bad until they had been pulled or broken to pieces. 946. Professor Warren.] You do not mean to say that if you had been at the Baldwin works and seen these engines manufactured that you could not have told that they were not up to the marls;. Tou say that there was a good deal of dirt in the material which shows that there was insufficient welding? No doubt in the process of manufacture a person might have seen that the axles were not getting fair treat- ment, but when they arrived here they were perfectly bright. They looked all right. My attention was drawn to various parts of the engines, but not to a single axle. Not a single axle raised doubt in the minds of any of my officers or in my own mind, and it was only when the axles were running hot that we adopted means such as increased lubrication to Iceep them cool. It was only by putting the axles in the testing machine and under the drop test that wo found that they had been made of bad material. 947. Tou stated that you were with Sir John Fowler in England, and he is the Inspecting Engineer for the New South Wales Grovernment. I take it that Sir John Eowler thoroughly inspects all engines, bridges, and other materials that are afterwards sent to this colony ? I presume he does in the case of matters which are put into his hands. 948. Tou have lately imported some engines from English manufacturers ? Tes. 949. Were they tested by Sir John Fowler and his staff ? Tes, his office had the inspection in their hands. 950. The materials of the axles and other parts of the engines were tested I presume ? Tes. 951. It was specified that they should be ? Tes. 952. And the engines were tested in steam afterwards ? Tes. 953. There is a specifiation here which I would like to read to you because it is certainly to me peculiar " Axles of hammered iron or steel." "To be made a true cylinder and carefully fitted," that is all. Is that a sufficient specification to obtain a suitable axle. There are no tests specified? Tou will not find I think in any Baldwin specifications anything else than that. That is my experience. 954. Do you believe in trusting to the honor of the manufacturer to produce the best axles from the best class of material ? I should certainly have expected from the Baldwin people very much better axles than came out with these engines. 955. But that is not my question. I was asking whether you trusted to the honor of the manufacturers to produce axles from the best material rather than specify that they should undergo tensile tests, ductility tests, and drop tests ? Well, I tell you that my practice has been all English practice, and in English practice we do subject axles to those tests, and specify them too ; but I believe that if we were to go to America to-morrow or send such a specification as commonly used for English engines the Bald- win Company would not submit to it. They furnish their own specifications and it is very rarely that American liailway Companies issue such specifications as English builders accept. They are only begin- ning to do so now. I had a conversation with Mr. Ely, Chief of the Locomotive Department of the Pennsylvania Kailway, and he showed me parts of his specifications which, for America, were unusually stringent and told me that although that was his practice it was an unusual one. 956. Is it not your general practice to specify full and complete tests ? Tes it is. 957. Tou have never written a specification for locomotives in which you have not specified the materials? No, or given them afterwards, because it is the English practice to specify them, and English makers expect it. 958. Was there any inspection of the American engines similar to that which would have been the case in regard to an engine manufactured in England ? Not that I am aware of. 959. Mr. JSddy.] Was not Mr. Thow authorised to appoint such an inspector when he was io America if he thought it desirable, and did he not decide, and cable the Commissioners that it was not the practice in America to doit, and that it would cause difficulty ? Tes ; I did. I had instructions from the Com- missioners when I was in America to consider the question of appointing an inspector, and when I went to the Baldwin firm I inquired into their conditions for this contract, and with the information that i obtained I then consulted with our agents in New Tork to ascertain what the practice was with regard to the building of locomotives there, because I knew that they had had some expedience in that particular work, and they told me that it was very unusual to have any inspector over the engines when built by a firm like the Baldwin Company. I had to consider what I had to put before an inspector to guide him in the matter. As I daresay you know, it was left with the Baldwin people to supply engines in accordance with their best practice. I could not give a specification or a set of drawings to the inspector. I could not tell him, " There are your instructions, which you must carry out." All these things were con- sidered by myself and the agents, and the conclusion that was come to was this : That under the contract the onus rested With the Baldwin people to supply these engines of the best character possible, and if an inspector, without sufficient guidance, was to interfere, the onus would be removed from them to a con- siderable extent. 960. °° BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTJIET COMMISSION— MmUTES OP ETIDENCE. W. Tli'o-w:. ^^^' ^°^ ™ean to say that, responsibility being removed from the Baldwin Engine Company, you would ^„,.,^j^_,^ nave been left with no guarantee beyond an unsatisfactory inspection ? Well, I mean that the company l4April,1892. ^°^l ' 3uch as Professor Warren proposes would be an expensive matter. 1647. President.'] If you have the data that Professor "Warren wants he would not want the tests that is quite plain. 1648. Professor Warren.'] They have not got the data. 1649. Mr. Felion.'] We can give you the data upon which we are working the railways — the data which is after all the best practical test. Scientific test would give a slightly different result, but the result would be so slightly different that it would amount to a mere nothing. We can give you the load which it is safe for an ■ engine to carry, and that is the beginning and end of the question involved in the trial. At the same time let me say, that if you wish to make any examination with regard to the Baldwin engines, we will give you every facility at our disposal to make it. 1650. President'] Mr. Brown and I must bo guided entirely by what Professor Warren thinks in this matter. I should never think of exercising my independent judgment. 1651. Professor TFarren.] Mr. Thow said that he could only give this information in a very rough way ; indeed, and that is why I am asking for it now. As far as the expense of tlie test is concerned, £ shall supply the indicator, and shall make the tests myself. It is merely a question of supplying us with an engine and trucks. My object in asking for the third test is to compare the Mogul engine with engines intended for the same class of work. We are not really testing the Baldwin engine against the English engine, and if the Etiglish engine beats the Baldwin engine, that would not influence us to any extent. 1652. Mr. PeJion."] Of course, we leave to the President the question of whether the test of other engines than the Baldwin engine comes within the scope of the Commission. 1653. President.'] What we have to inquire into is whether these engines are defective, or in any way unsuitable to the permanent- way of the Colony as a railway, or whether they are performing the work for which they were ordered. Personally, I dp not see exactly how this test would bear upon the question, but Professor Warren says that it does bear upon it. He says tliat if he could compare these different engines it will help him in his decision as to whether the Baldwin engines really are defective in anyway, or unsuitable to the permanent-way of the railways. I only want you to understand that in the first place Professor Warren is associated with us for the purpose of helping us in this matter, for I know nothing about engineering, and though Mr. Brown knows a Jittle he certainly does not know as much as Professor Warren, and not so much about railway engineering as he personally might know about other kinds of engineering. As I say, at present I do net see where the materiality of the tests in regard to the other engines than the Baldwin engines comes in. I can well understand the necessity for a test of the Baldwin engines ; but Professor Warren points out to me that if he finds that there is a tremendous difference in the consumption of fuel in the Baldwin, that is to say, if they consume a great deal more fuel than the other engines that would be a defect in the engine. 1654. Professor TVarren.] If it is a very large difference, but we shall get the speed up the Picton incline and get the horse-power in each case. 1655. Mr. Proivn.] Personally I endorse every word that the President has said, but Professor Warren is here as a professional engineer, and if he wishes these steps we cannot stand in the way of them. 1656. Professor Warren.] If the Commissioners make a decided objection, then I do not think I shall press the point ; but I cannot understand why they should object to have these tests made, because as Mr. Eddy said himself he intended to make them, but for so far had not been able to do so. 1657. President.] The only question is whether convenient. 1658. Professor Warren.] Well, it would be more convenient to the Commissioners if we made the test ourselves. 1659. Mr. Brown.] They say that they can give you all the information necessary for practical purposes, and you say they cannot. 1660. Professor Warren.] I am quite sure they cannot, because I asked Mr. Tliow. If you make a test of any new thing you always make a mental comparison with what something else does, and that is precisely what I want to do in this instance. 1661. Mr. Brown.] Tou have heard the wish of the Commission about it, and you can now confer with your colleagues. 1662. Mr. PeJion.] I would only ask the President whether it comes within the scope of the Com- mission p 1663. President.] Professor Warren thinks that it will enable him to arrive at a conclusion, and that alone is sufficient for us, and would be if even we differed much more than we do from him. We are not now writing a report in which if we each held different opinions we should hesitate about signing it, but here is a test that he says will help him to arrive at the decision, and I do not see how we can resist it in any way, or how, because I, in niy ignorance, cannot see why Professor Warren wants these results, can oppose him. 1664. Mr. Brown.] We have really gone further than we ought to have gone in publicly admitting that there was a want of unanimity on this point. The best thing you can do, Mr. Fehon, is to confer with your colleagues. 1665. Mr. Pehon.] I will withdraw the question, and confer with them. 1666. Professor 'Warren.] And if the Commissioners still object, although I say again that I think the tests are most desirable, we shall have to be content without them. I shall have asked for them, and have been refused ; at all events, I have done my duty. William Wilson, being sworn, said : — 1667. I am locomotive inspector in the Eailway Service of this Colony. tlj, 1668. President^ How long have you been in the service of the Eailway Department of this Colony ? I W. Wilson, have been in the Colony between seven and eight years, engaged in the Eailway Department. , -^ -■- .^ ^ 1669. What were you before that ? I have had twenty-eight years' railwavj experience — that is to say, 2April,18S2. twenty years before I came here, and eight years since. 1670. 60 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIBT COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. 1670. In the same class of work ? Tes ; I am a fitter by trade, and I have gone right on. W. 'Wilson. iQ>ji 21^ Hot/le.] Have you had much experience with regard to these engines, since you have been m 9 use, and takinginto consideration that BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQITTHT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 03 that they are powerful engines^ did you find that more repairs to them were required than say ^^ & ^ Mfprd powerful English engine? We have not had the experience of English engines of the same power or ^^J^j^^^^' near the same power to enable us to mate a comparison. 2i April, 1893. 1804 Are these the most powerful engines that have been used in this Colony ? To the best of my knowledge they are. 1805. "Well, at the time they were used, were they the most powerful engines that had ever been at work here ? Tes, I believe so. 1806. So you cannot compare the repairs necessary for them with those required for a similar class oi English engine ? No, sir. 1807. Can you tell us whether for new engines you consider that the repairs made were excessive . Well, there is always something to be done with new engines, the amount of repairs was fairly heavy. 1808. "Was it in your opinion excessive, taking into consideration the size of the engines ? No, I do .not think so. 1809. Professor Warren.] Tou only speak of your own district ? Tes, that is all. - 1810. President^ Speaking of one wheel being smaller than another is that unusual ? "Well, I have not come across many instances, but it might easily have happened, it would be the fault of the wheel-turner. 1811. But I thought you said that it happened on other' engines ? Oh, yes ; but not to the extent the tyres are concerned ; I thought Mr. Hoyle referred to the axles. 1812. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you ever found the tire of one wheel larger than another in other engines, with the same axle for both wheels ? Tes, slightly. 1813. "Would such a thing have the effect of causing the wheels to run slightly on the skew ? Very slightly. "What I noticed was that they showed about a B2nd. a side; so taking the roads they have to run over it would make very little difference. 1814. Have you tried any of the others to see if they are the same ? No, I have not, I have made no further examinations. 1815. Professor Warren.] Tou have said that the estimated difference of an eighth of an inch was dueto the turner ? I said a bare eighth. 1816. "Well, would not that be rather unusual, even supposing it to be a sixteenth of an inch — would it not be unusual for a turner to make that mistake ? "Tes ; but there have been mistakes of that kind made. 1817. Tou can feel the ten thousandth part of an inch, although you may not be able to express it ; you would know whether it was under or over, and so one-sixteenth would be a big error ? Tes ; but it has been noticed so in other wheels turned out ; the turner's gauge may not be accurate. 1818. President.] The difference is in the tyre ? No; what we call the thread. 1819. Mr. Broton.] So far as these engines came under your observation, did they do their work satis- factorily? Tes; while under my observation. 1820. "What work were they doing ? Well, we were running Nos. 20 and 55 passenger trains between Sydney and Newcastle. 1821. And did they work satisfactorily while they were doing that— did you look on them as serviceable and suitable for the permanent way of New South Wales ? Tes. 1822. How long were they employed in your district ? From the middle of August to the latter part of December. 1823. And during that time did they give satisfaction ? Tes ; the engines I had to do with did so. 1824. Did they work well ? Tes. 1825. And yet you cannot say why they~were taken off the service despite the fact that they were doing their work well for about five months. They were taken off and you are not able to give any reason why ? No ; I cannot give any specific reason. 1826. Mr. Jloyle.] Can you give us the name of the turner who turned these wheels up ? I . could not give you the name just at this moment, but I could easily get it for you. 1827. Have you found any failures in the brake-gear ? There were no failures in the brake-gear during the time they were under my charge. 1928. Was there only one axle broken whilst these engines were under your charge ? The one tender axle only, I think. 1829. And this train that the axle broke in was from Sydney. It was in the Northern express service, I understand ? Tes ; I believe so. 1830. Do you remember that at the time the engines were running in your district whether any of the draw-hooks broke ? Not during the time that they were under my charge. Isaac Gregory, being sworn, said : — 1831. I am shed foreman at Penrith, and I have been in the railway service of New South Wales since j nreeory 1877. 'r-^JL^ 1832. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you been a driver, Mr. Gregory ? Tes ; I have. 21 April,1892 1833. And you have had considerable experience in the service as a driver ? Tes ; I have had. 1884. Did you accompany a train that went from Sydney to the west in order to try the platforms, I mean the gauge of the platforms ? Tes. 1835. Was there a gauge fitted to the engine of that train, made up to the width that would correspond with the width of the cylinder of the Baldwin engines ? Tes. 1836. President.] Was that engine fitted up with a gauge to show the width of the Baldwin engine cylinder — was it fitted for that purpose ? "Tes ; I think it was. 1837. I understand you do not really know what it was fitted for, but that you think it was fitted for this purpose ? Tes. 1838? Mr. Hoyle.] Was that gauge put there to represent the width of the cylinders of the Baldwin engines ? It might be the width that the cylinders of the Baldwin engines would be, but I am not certain, it was placed on the engine before I arrived in Sydney. 18^9. How far did you go with that engine ? I went from Sydney to Bourke. 1840. I)i4 this gauge, fitted to the engine scrape some of the platforms as you passed ? Yes ; I think it did scrape some of them. 1841. 64 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQriHT COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. Mr. 1841. Then you were not told what that gauge was for ? No ; I was not told what it was for. I. Gregory. 1342. Did jt correspond with the width of the Baldwin engine ? Yes ; I think it did. oiT'^i^o 1843. Ton say it scraped, some of the platforms ? Yes,' one or two ; I am not quite sure how many. 21Apnl,1892. ^g^^ Fresident.-] Where ? I am not quite sure of the stations, although I took the measurement at the time, there were Sydney and Granville ; at G-ranville it just touched in one place, whilst the engine was oscillating in going through the platform. 1845. Mr. SoyleJ\ Did you measure all the platforms as you passed ? Yes. 1846. And did you report to the officers of your Department the result of that trial trip ? Yes. 1847. Is that report containing your measurements still in existence ? I do not know, but I suppose so. 1848. I would like that report to be put in. 1849. Mr. Fehon.'] If the reports are in existence, they will be put in. 1850. Mr. Royle.'] I think the Commission should insist upon them being produced ? The witness says he made a report, and sent it to the Department. 1851. President.'] Mr. Fehon says if reports of these measurements are in existence they will be put in. I think that should be sufficient, Mr. Hoyle. 1852. Jfr.fibyZe (to witness).] You made atrial of the platforms on both sides of the line, I suppose? Yes. 1853. In any place where the engine struck would it be possible for the Baldwin engine to pass going at anything like a high rate of speed without touching the platform ? They might strike by oscillation. 1854. But where this engine scraped they would pass ? Yes, I suppose so. • i. < 1855. Therefore the platforms would have to be chipped away to allow the engines to pass, is not that so i Yes, to permit them to pass freely, perhaps. 1856. President.'] Do I understand that the engine could not get by, or was it oscillation ? A certain amount of oscillation would cause the engines to touch. 1857. Mr. Hoyle :] Did you notice any other places where the gauge touched besides the platforms examined ? No. 1858. Or places where it was rather close but did not quite touch ? Yes ; I noticed some places where it was rather close. 1859. And all these cases are in your report ? Yes. 1860. Have you anything to do with ordering the engines oat to do work ? Yes, to supply the demands of the traffic. .1 861. Since the Baldwin passenger engines have been out have they been ever run with the mail at night ; I mean, since you have been there, did they ever require a tail engine or push-up-behind engine ? No, except in very bad weather, or with an exceptionally heavy load. 1862. What is the usual passenger train ? There are usually sixteen and a-half carriages to a passenger engine. 1863. Does she take it up without any other assistance ? Yes, except, as I have said, in very bad weather . 1864. President^ Will you explain — I do not quite understand what these sixteen and a-half carriages represent ? I will explain, sir ; the old count was up to 10 tons for one carriage. 1865. Mr. Fehon.'] It is in this way, sir ; it varies according to the class of carriage ; it is all based upon the old four-wheeled carriage ; a large carriage represents one and a-half carriages, a still larger carriage represents what is known as two carriages, and so on; so that sixteen and a-half carriages may mean practically four large carriages. 186S. Professor Warren.] What does that mean in weight ? 1867. Mr. Fehon.] There are 10 tons to each carriage,, so that counting each carriage up to 10 tons, a carriage representing 20 tons would represent under our system two carriages, although as a matter of fact it would only be one carriage. 1868. Mr. Brown.] Then the total weight for a passenger train would be 165 tons ? 1869. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 1870. Mr. Soyle (to vdtness').] You say you only had a pilot engine wben the load exceeded that amount, or in bad weather ? Yes. 1871. Do these engines ever slip ? I never heard of them slipping. 1872. Did you ever hear a report from any of the drivers that there was an engine behind time for an hour through slipping ; about, I think it was, the 4th April the occasion I refer to ? I do not know. 1873. President.] Do you mean the 4th April this year ? 1874. Mr Hoyle.] Yes, about that date. [To witness?^ Do you know if any of the other trains have had to drop their load in order that the Baldwin engine might bring it on ? Yes ; I think it was on the 14th the train had to drop its load and give it up to the Baldwin engine. 1875. You also remember that ? Yes. 1876. And then had to run in light ? Yes. 1877. It ran in without a load ? Yes ; the first engine gave the load up as it was not able to take it on, and the Baldwin engine came along with the second train and the carriages were taken off the first engine and put on the second one, this was from Lawson to Katoomba. 1878. Professor 'FFarren.] You pass over a heavy grade there ? Yes. 1879. So that this engine took about 185 tons over a heavy grade ? Yes. 1880. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you know of any case where any portion of a load has been dropped when the other engine was able to pull it? No. 1881. Does the Baldwin engine run from Penrith to Katoomba going back light. — the Consolidation engine, say? Yes ; the Consolidation does come back light from Katoomba, after taking a mail up. 1882. Professor Warren.] You are speaking of the recently imported engine I presume ? Yes ; the 8- wheeled couple — as we call them. 1883. Mr. Hoyle.] Why does not the Consolidation engine, instead of coming back without any load to Penrith, take a load on to Bathurst ? Well, it is not adapted for taking trains on. 1881. Why; on account of the speed ? Well, it may give the speed, but it is not'built for that grade, it is not intended for such purposes. 1885. Would it have an effect upon the permanent way if the Consolidation engine ran the return trip between Katoomba and Bathurst, to time ? Well, it might be done. 1886. Mr. Fehon.] Will you allow me to explain sir. These engines are intended for running the moun- tain traffic ; they are not intended for running at a high rate of speed. It would knock the road about if they were run at a high rate of speed ; they are not intended forthat purpose, and they are not being used for it. 1887. BALDWm LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDEJSCE. 65 1887. President.'] Our Commiasioii says that we are to inquire whether these engines are unsuitable to Mr. the i)ermanent way of our railways ; therefore, I think Mr. Hoyle has a right to put these questions, if "J^f^* he wishes to do so ; but you can explain afterwards that these engines were not intended for such service, gi^prji i892. and would not be put to it. 1888. Mr. I'ehon.'] I thought a wrong impression would get abroad, and, therefore, I wish to explain that these engines were intended for a heavy grade and not for anything else, not for running at a high rate of speed. 1889. Mr. Hoyle (to witness).] Do the passenger Baldwin engines take the mail on to Katoomba ? Tes. 1890. Have you had much experience of these engines ? Not on the engines. 1831. But about the repairs ? No, I have not much to do with repairs, only to see that they are completed in a proper time, so that the engine may go out at a proper time. 1892. Do you know of any draw-hooks breaking ? They may have broken, but not in my presence. 1893. Do you know anything about draw-hooks or coupling-chains breaking on trucks drawn by these engines ? I do not know from my own knowledge, but I think there have been several broken. 1894. Has it been the links or the hooks that have broken ? The hooks, I think. 1895. Who would know all about that ? I suppose the foreman-fitter would know. 1896. Is it part of the guard's duty to report these things ? Tes, he reports them to his superior oflBcer (the District Superintendent, Mr. Duff). 1897. Since these trains have been running, what load do they put on ; what number of loaded trucks is put on either the Consolidation goods engine or the passenger engine when she has to haul a goods train ? A passenger engine takes twenty trucks and a large brake, and if that weight of trucks is exceeded there is second engine to push up. 1898. And you put that on for safety ? It is always done up the mountains. It is very seldom they run a single train up the mountains now. 1899. Is it ever done with less than twenty or with twenty? Not that I know of. The train is held with the assistance of a heavy brake behind. 1900. What is the weight of these trains, supposing you had twenty loaded trucks ? Well, there are about 10 tons in each truck when loaded, and the brake van would be about 19 tons. 1901. President.'] That is about 219 tons in all. 1002. Professor 'Warren.] Do you mean to say that the Baldwin Consolidation engine can pull 219 tons ? Well, she takes 22 trucks up the grade. 1903. Mr. Hoyle.] And do you think that in taking up that enormous load the draw-gear is not in any way endangered ? Well ; not at present, I think. 1901i. Suppose I take this pencil and pull it to-day, I may strain it a little, and if I pull it to-morrow there is a likelihood of a greater sttain, and the time may come when, with the maximum strain, it might break altogether ; would not this be the case with the draw-gear, would it not be sufficient to break it in time? 1905. Professor 'PFarren.] I do not think you ought to ask this question. It is a very difficult one ; you mean, will the maximum pull on the train stretch the hooks beyond their elastic limits, I think that would be better ascertained in the testing machine. 190G. 3Ir. Pehon.] Perhaps the most practical way would be to ask him if he knows of any accident that has happened to the draw-gear ; but, as to his opinion, it was a question what it was worth ; it might be worth a great deal or it might be worth very little. liK)7. Mr. Hoyle.] I was never a guard on the railway line, and so far as breaking away is concerned I can only go by my knowledge gained through the reports that are found in the press ; 1 only know that trucks did break awaythrough the gear breaking at Bathurst whereloss of life happened through this cause. 1908. President.] You mean to show, I suppose, that presuming there is a constant strain every day upon this gear it will so weaken it, that one day it will brealc, and a smash will follow. Well, I think, with Professor Warren that this is a question which will be better decided in the testing machines; and again, you have to ask yourself is this a person from whom you should ask such a question. His opinion may be worth a great deal on the one hand, as pointed out, or on the other hand it may be worth very little. 1909. Mr. Brown.] Perhaps it is the inevitable end of all draw-gear. 1910. Mr. Fehon.] I cannot allow statements like the one Mr. Hoyle has made to go forth without informing you that when the Commissioners took office they found the draw-gear was inadequate to the strain put on it, and since we have been in office we have altered the whole of the draw-gear of the goods traffic, and the light draw-gear on the whole stock has been brought up to the standard of the heaviest draw-gear in the world. In order to provide against any probability of the trucks breaking away, all our rolling stock was fitted with the heaviest draw-gear that could be found in any part of the world. 1911. Mr. Hoyle.] I am quite aware of that, and I know that even the heaviest draw-gear has been broken, and that with a load not so heavy as has been put on these engines. 1912. President.] But in this case was the load unduly heavy ; because, if so, an accident might happen at any time, even though the Commissioners got the heaviest draw-gear in the world. 1913. Mr. i'ehon.] I have a return of all the broken draw-gear or hooks, and I know the cause of their breaking, and I have the names of the men who were driving the engines at the time. Some of these breakages may be the result of bad welding or a flaw, but the greater number of them arise from the jerk received at starting or pulling up the steep grades. At starting, the engine may go away with a jerk, and the draw-gear may snap. We have provided against this to the utmost in our power, and we can do no more. Such accidents may happen under the best regulations with bad drivers, 1914. Professor Warren (to witness).] I understand you to say that the heaviest load the Consolidation engine can take up the Mountains was 220 tons ; — is that the utmost load they can take ? I did not say that was the utmost. For a short distance they might do more. 1915. Would you put more than than that on the engine ? Tes; I might ; but I think that is a fair load. 1916. Well, supposing the maximum to be 220 tons, it is an easy thing to decide whether the draw-gear might easily be broken or would be sufficient for the load. 1917. Mr. Fehon] Mr. Thow, the Chief Mechanical Engineer, will be called by the Eailway Commis- sioners to give all this evidence. 6—1 1918. "^ BALDWIN lOCOMOTlVES INQtTlllX COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. 1918. Professor Warren.'] Yes ■ but since the matter has arisen I am bound to satisfy myself that it will 1. Oregory. t^ke that load. It means simply that you ought to supply the drawings of the draw-gear for the engines 2ir^ai892 ^°*^ *^® trucks— the one as between the engine and the train, and the other the ordinary draw-gea,r ' ■ between the trucks. Will you try and have that put in.' . • . i 1919. Mr. Fehon.] I submit that, as the draw-gear between the trucks, that would be going into a general inquiry with regard to the rolling stock of the railways. . . , 1920. Professor Warren.] It has been decided, I understand, that we must talte some notice ot the trucks. 1921. Mr. Fehon.] I admit that a mistake was originally made with regard to the draw-gear, but l^eavier hooks have since been substituted at the expense of the Baldwin Company. That deals entirelj^ ^"^ t^e question of the draw-gear supplied by the Baldwin Engine Company. As to what may be behind those engines— as, for example, the draw-gear between the trucks— that, I submit, has nothing to do with this inquiry. It might be the coupling of other engines nearly up to the capacity of these ; so that, in fact, if this question were admitted it would resolve itself into an inquiry into the condition ot the rolling stock generally of the Colonies. 1922. Professor Warren.] Well, will you supply drawings of the strong draw-gear you used on the Baldwin engines. 1923. Mr. Brown (to witness).] Does the strong gear with the load you now put to the engine give satisfaction ? Tes. 1924. Do you know of any cases of its giving way ? No. 1925. Tou know that other draw-gear was substituted for that originally used ? Tes. 1926. President.] Tou have never known this new draw-gear to give way ? No. 1927. Mr. Soyle.] Tou say you have heard of some links breaking attached to some of the trucks ? Tes ; I have seen all kinds break, strong and standard, but it has been chiefly in starting the train where the brakes have been put down, about Katoomba principally, and thereabouts. Putting down the brake suddenly throws a strain on the hooks. 1928. Did you ever at any other time accompany the officers in other trials to test the width on the other stations ? No. 1929. It was only on the Western Line ? Tes. Henry Robinson being sworn, saith : — Mr, 5. 1930. I am connected with Mr. Stangar's staff, Department of the Locomotive Superintendent. Bobinaon. 1931. President.] How long have you been in the railway service ? About nine years altogether. ^ r— -'^— -N 1932. What is your exact position, how would you define it ? I am with Mr. Stangar's staff, and inquire 21 April, 1892. into little matters in connection with the running of the trains. 1933. Professor Warren.] Tou are assistant to Mr. Stangar then I understand ? No ; I am connected with his staff, that is to say, I am on his staff. 1934. Mr. Fehon ^ Mr. Robinson was a cadet in the Department, coming to us from school, and when his time was up,- he took a trip through Europe and America, and since coming out he has been placed in Mr. Stangar's office to make inquiry into matters coming under his notice that necessitate inquiry. 193d. President.] Was he sent Home from the Department ? 1936. Mr. Fehon.] No. He was one of those who went Home at his own expense, prior to the cadets being sent by the Commissioners. 1937. President.] Did you make any inquiries into the working of railways when you were at Home ? I went Home to make inquiries, and to try and pick up as much information as I could. I visited several establishments at Home. 1938. And I suppose you picked up some experience ? Tes ; some little experience. 1939. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you make any tests or trials of coal stages, or the platforms in connection with the Baldwin engines ? I cannot say that I personally made any tests, but I was present when one of the engines was being run over the Northern Line. 1940. Where was that ? The Northern Main Line. 1941. Was there any gauge on that engine that would make up for the width of the cylinders of the Baldwin engines ? No, 1942. Tou had no gauge at all ? There was no gauge at all. 1948. On what engine were you ? I was on one of the Baldwin engines. 1944. Where did you go to ? We went as far as Wallangarra, near the Queensland Border. 1945. Did you find that anywhere that any of the cylinders scraped, or went very close to the platforms ? No ; not in one instance. 1946. Was there plenty of room for these engines to pass going at a high rate of speed ? Well, quite sufficient room to allow the engine to pass and to allow for oscillationi. 1947. Tou went the whole length of the Northern Line, did you not ? Tes. Wallangarra is the extreme point in our Colony. But I am speaking principally now of the distance from Strathfield to Wallangarra. 1948. That is practically the whole distance ? Tes, we have a branch, line from Werris Creek. 1949. Oh, I do not refer to that, your trip was on the Main Northern Line, was it not ? Tes. 1950. Did the cab of the engine, during any part of your trip, come into contact with the verandahs of any of the platforms ? No, I cannot say that it fouled any of them. 1951. Were any alterations made "to any of the platforms in consequence of its coming into contact with them ? I cannot say. 1952. Mr. Brown.] Were you watching throughout, and are you speaking of your own knowledge when you say it did not touch any of these verandahs or platforms ? I say it did not foul any of them. 1953. Did it not hit any of them ? No. 1954. Did it not knock any portion away? No, not that lam aware of. I am speaking of the Northern Line. 1955. Had any of the Baldwin engines gone over these lines previously ? Not that I am aware of. 1956. Then that was the first one ? Tes. 1957. Did you know subsequently of any of the Baldwin engines striking any of the platforms? No. 1958. Did you know of any of the Baldwin engines striking any of the verandahs between here and Newcastle ? No, I did not. 1959. BAIDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQtriRT COMMISSION — MIStTTES OF ETIDBNCE. 67 1959. President (to Mr. B.ojle).'] Would you contend that because ttese engines did touch tlie verandahs „ _^; or platforms they would, therefore, be unsuitable for the permanent way of the colonies or defective ? •o^^^son. No ; but I would say that it showed gross negligence on the part of the officers in not seeing that these giAprJi i892. details were attended to in the specifications they sent to America for these engines. 1960. But suppose that an engine was a good one, and it was built up a little too high, so that a verandah would be injured, would you in that case say that the engine was defective or unsuitable to the to the permanent way, just because the Commissioners might have to remove a portion of a platform or two ? No ; but 1 think it would show great want of care on the part of the officers, and one of my charges is that there was neglect on the part of the officers. 1961. You contend that before they allow the engine to go they should have seen that it cleared all the platforms ? Yes ; that before the specifications were drawn up this should have been seen to, so that we should not have had to alter any of our platforms to allow these engines to pass. 1962. Mr. Hoyle (to witness) .] Did you make any reports in connection with the coal stages ? No ; I made no report whatever. 1963. Was there not any investigation made relative to the coal stages in connection with these engines ? Not that I am aware of. 1964. Were any alterations made at any of these stages to meet the convenience of these engines? I cannot say whether there was any alteration made or not, but 1 daresay the line was altered a few inches ■ perhaps. 1965. Had that anything to do with the width of the cylinders of the Baldwin engines ? I do not know .why it was altered at all. 1966. Do you know if the coal stage at Eveleigh was altered in connection with these engines or not ? I do not. 1967. Were any alterations made to the coal stages in connection with these engines ? Ttere was a deviation made in the line, but whether in connection with the American engines I do not know. 1968. Was it made before or after they came ? I cannot speak except from memory, but I believe it was made before the engines came or about the time they came. 1969. Did I understand you to say that you only went on the Northern Lines on these trials, did you go on the South Coast Line or on the Western Line making a similar trial there ? Yes, I went on to the Southern Line. 1970. Did you go to Picton on the Southern Line with an engine ? Yes. 1971. Could you go past Picton platform before the rails were shifted, I mean the line was altered ? No. 1972. You could not ? No. 1973. You could not pass Picton platform with the Baldwin engine until the rails were slewed or the platform altered ? Oh, we got past the station certainly, but the lines were afterwards altered 1 believe. ] 974. But the cylinder touched ? No, it went very close. 1975. Could the engine have passed with safety running at the rate of say 30 miles an hour ? I daresay if aU the brasses were in good condition, in that event we might have got through safely. 1976. Mr. Brown.'] Would you like to be on an engine going at the rate of 30 miles an hour, and to have it pass so close to the platform as you say this pass. Would you have liked to have driven an engine through at that rate ? Yes ; I dare say I could have driven the engine. 1977. Do you think it would have derailed the engine ? No ; perhaps it might have scraped the bufEer beam, that is all. 1978. Did you find you got very close to other platforms on the Southern Line ? It is some time since I went on the trip, so that I cannot remember quite clearly. 1979. Did you make any report on your trip ? Yes. 1980. Did it contain the measurements of all the distances ? I do not remember if aU the distances were given, because in the majority of cases the engines cleared very well. 1981. But in the cases where the engines did not pass the stations very well, where, in fact, they went too close, did you report on the distances ? Yes. 1982. Was that report made by you ? I do not know if my figures were sent in ; figures may have been sent in by the engineer. 1983. You made a report, at any rate ; you made these measurements ? Yes. 1984. Did you make a press copy of your own report, or keep a copy of any kind ; is it in existence ? Yes ; but I do not know if I could lay my hand ujjon it or not. 1985. Is it not in the books of the Department ? I cannot say. 1986. Did you not take a copy of it in your own private book, or one of the books of the Department ? I cannot say. I copy so many letters that it is impossible for me to remember each particular one. 1987. You mean in your own Department ? Yes. 1988. Mr. Hoyle^ I ask that that report be put in. 1989. Mr. Brown.} He says he cannot remember if he has got it or not. 1990. President.'] Have you got it, Mr. Fehon ? 1991. Mr. Pehon.] It may be in existence — we shall try to find it. 1992. Mr. Brown.] Let him look through his books, and if he can find it, let him produce it. 1993. President.] Yes, if he can find a press copy let him produce it. 1994. Mr. I^oyle.] At what speed were you going when you passed the Picton platform ? We generally slow up when going past platforms. 1995. About what speed were you going ? Well, that all depends upon what speed you come up at, whether the signals are against you or not, if you have a clear line, and so on. 1996. But for the purpose of making this test, and ascertaining these measurements, at what speed were you going along ? I could not say. 1997. At Picton, were you going at a pace of about 4 miles an hour ? Yes. 1998. Did you get very close to the G-uildford platform ? No ; I think we had sufficient space at the Guildford platform. 1999. Did you get very close to Merrylands platform ? I cannot remember the individual platforms as we went along. 2000. Do you say you cannot remember the various platforms yoii passed, and where you found the engines very close ? Picton is the only one I can remember. 2001. 68 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITE? IKQUXET COMMISSIOJT — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. 2001. Did you go on the South Coast line ? No. ,,^ ^ H. Kobmson. 2002. The Northern and the Southern lines were the only ones you went on ? Yes ; and the Western -iiApni.iBaa. jqqs^ ^j^^^^. ^j^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^j^^ "Western, was it on a Baldwin engine that you went ? Yes. 2004. Did you come into close contact with any of the platforms on that line ? No ; we got through with a suflBcient ainount of clearance. 2005. "Was the clearance in all cases suflScient to allow the engine to go through at the speed a passenger engine would have to run at ? I cannot say that, I do not know. 2006. Mr. £roum.'] We have it already in evidence that about £2,000 to £3,000 was spent. The Commissioners are best qualified to judge whether it was wisely spent or not. 2007. Mr. Boyle.] I am only asking this witness now whether these engines went so close to the platform as to touch, or whether they were able to pass them safely. I am not asking these questions for any purpose of delaying. 2008. Mr. Brown.] Upwards of £3,000 were spent, and the bulk of that sum was expended shortly after the Baldwin engines arrived, and the Commission will have to determine whether it was spent in connection with the Baldwin engines themselves, or whether it was spent in order to secure uniformity of gauge as the Eailway Commissioners allege. 2009. Mr. Hoyle.] All I am trying to do is to put anything before the Commission that I can put on this particular point, in order to show that there was some neglect on the part of the officers in this matter. 2010.] President.] Supposing the engine had run close, does that show that these engines are defective and unsuitable for the permanent- way of the Colony, and that they are not performing the services that are expected of them. Do you want to make out that it was negligence to run so close to the platform. If a platform were in existence which would be so close to the engine when it passes that might be evidence of negligence, if some accident happened in consequence of it, but how does that bear on the question we are trying ? "We are not trying whether the Department generally is guilty of negligence, but whether the negligence they have shown is in importing engines to the Colony which are defective and unsuitable to the permanent-way of the Colony, and not doing the work that is expected from them. 2011. Mr. Brown.] Do you wish to show that some official had been guilty of some negligence in this matter ? 2012. Mr. Soyle.] I make no charges against the Eailway Commissioners ; but I say that someone was guilty of neglect in not ascertaining these facts with regard to the platforms before the engines were ordered, and adaj)ting the specifications to them. "With regard to the extent of this inquiry, as laid down in the Corainission, I certainly am not aware that anyone ever alleged that these engines were not per- forming what was expected from them, I never said so. 2013. President.] The words of the Commission areas follows [Cowimiss/oJi Bead]. These are the three things we have to inquire into, and how does the evidence you are now bringing out bear upon them. 2014. Mr. Hoyle.] But it bears upon the alteration of the platforms. "When Mr. Eddy came here at the first meeting of the Commission you asked for someone to come forward and make direct charges. I came forward, and I have made these charges. The Eoyal instrument may say something perhaps, and include in that some things that have never been alleged against the engines, yet surely my charges will have to form some considerable portion of'what you will have to decide in determining this question. 2015. President.] You cannot come and make charges outside this Commission, but you are allowed to state in support of one of the charges that a great many of the platforms were altered because the Baldwin engines had been imported. It might be that this would show that these engines were unsuitable to the permanent-way of the Colony. A vast expense having been incurred to alter the platforms on account of the importation of these engines might go to show that they were unsuitable to the permanent- way In other words looking at what our platforms were, if they were to be regarded as permanent- platforms and a vast expense had been gone to in altering them, if they had had to knock them down or remove them in order to fit these engines that would be some evidence that the engines should never have been brought here, that is looking at the difference between the width required for "them and the measurement of our platforms and stations along the line. But unless you are prepared to show that it was some vast expense that reasonable people would not go to, I do not see how that will help your case. "Were a few bricks taken, some coping-stones removed, parts of verandahs cut down, that a much more serviceable engine could be used on our lines, would that show that these engines were unsuitable to the permanent- way ? 2016. Mr. Hoyle.] The platforms are part of the permanent-way. 2017. President^ Only relatively so ; that is to say, platforms built in some very substantial and solid way — so substantial, in fact, that it would be an outrage to interfere with them unless with very good reason — might be regarded as part of the permanent-way; that is to say, if they were built at an enormous expense and very substantially, and yet had to be pulled down or partially destroyed in order to let these engines pass, that might be evidence that the engines were not suitable for our permanent- way. All these things must be relative. But, on the other hand, if by chipping away a little brickwork you will enable an engine to be brought here that will be able to do a great deal more work than any engine did before, then you must look upon the matter as a question of the relative benefits or otherwise that follow. 2018. Mr. Fehon.]. Xu America the permanent-way is complete without a platform. 2019. Professor Warren.] I must ask for some information as to the platforms, the alteration of the gauge, width of platforms, &c. ; — can I have it? 2020. Mr. Fehon.] It is being prepared. 2021. Professor Warren.] It seems to me that when we get that information all Mr. Hoyle's questions with regard to these platforms will be answered. 2022. Mr. Brown.] I think that what Mr. Hoyle desires to show is, that since we knew that this large sum of money had been spent, it was for the Commission to determine whether it was spent in connection with the Baldwin Engine Company, and whether, under all circumstances, it was a justifiable expenditure in connection with the Eailway Department. Knowing the value these engines were likely to prove, still was it worth while to interfere with the platforms, thus causing additional expense in connection with these engines. g023. President (to Mr. Hoyle.) So far as I am concerned,! wish to give you every latitude, but I cannot see BAlDWIlf LOCOMOTITES INQUIUT COMMISSION— MIKUTES OF ETIDENCE. 69 see how these questions bear upon the matter. It may be said the cab of the engine touches the verandahs, Mr. but how does this show these engines are unfit for the permanent-way, ' ^°''i"so"- 2024. Mr. Brown.] Should you not show, Mr. Hoyle, that these plans or speoiScations should have gone 2iX^riri8P2 to some particular part of the Department, and should have had the sanction of the officers there before p . ' • they were sent forward when the engine was decided upon, should you not have shown the plans of the engine and submitted them to the Head of the permanent-way, saying : Now these are the engines we propose to send for — are they suitable to the permanent-way ? 2025. Mr. Fehon.~\ The gauge was sent to the Baldwin people and they knew what was required, but the verandahs and platforms were not always to gauge ; but that was not the fault of the Baldwin Company. Mr. Hoyle is trying to question this witness on the trial-trip to test whether these engines were right _ or not ; surely the Commissioners would have done very wrong if they had started the trains without making such a trial trip. 2026. President.'] If you had been satisfied that the platforms were in gauge you would do it. 2027. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 2028. Mr. JBrown.] Would you not ordinarily have transmitted these plans and specifications to the various Heads of the Departments whose works they may concern ? I am not saying, you will under- stand, that you were not quite right in sending up the engine along the line ; but could you not have ascertained before the specifications for these engines were sent whether they were suitable for the permanent-way or not, by submitting that question to the proper officer ? 2029. Mr. Fehon.] All that will come out in our evidence. These engines were a necessity at the time. "We had other engines ordered in England at the time, but the manufacturers could not supply us with them in time for the last wool season, and therefore, as a matter of fact, we had to fall back upon the manufacturers from whom we could get the engines sufficiently speedily to meet our circumstances. That was the reason why we ordered them. We knew in ordering the Baldwin engines what they were. It was like asking for a Waltham watch — we had not to inquire what the mainspring was made of, and so on. The Baldwin people are people of very great repute, and if you order ten or a dozen, engines it is nothing to them. They have a very large extensive business, and they would not sacrifice their good name in order to supply us with defective engines. All this will come out in the evidence we shall give. 2030. Mr. Brown.] Ton will understand we do not wish to Jimit you, Mr. Hoyle, in any way ; but you have heard the matters the Commission requires us to inquire into. 2031. Mr. Hoyle.] I can see now there is something in the Eoyal Instrument which is outside any charge that anyone has ever made against these engines. It has been put in without any necessity, and it covers the Eailway Commissioners clean up. 2032. President.] If there is no necessity for it then it only makes the inquiry larger. What, I repeat, we have to inquire into is whether these engines are def ecti\ e or are unsuitable to the permanent-way of the Colony, or have not done the work that was expected from them. 2033. Mr. Hoyle.] I say that charge was never made. 2034. President?^ Therefore we are only Tequired, you think, to inquire whether they are unsuitable to to the permanent-way or defective ? I really do not see how it affects this matter, simply because in passing this engine may have touched some of the platforms, unless you can show that these stations were made of granite or some solid material, and were, in short, of ■such a substantial nature that they could be regarded as part of the permanent-way. 2035. Mr. Brown.] Tou cannot complain of any want of range>in this Commission, Mr. Ho3'le. 2036. Mr. Hoyle.] I have had the fullest fair play so far as this Commission is concerned. It seems that an order has been sent to America for these engines without the slightest regard having been taken in regard to the risk to human life or the property that might be behind them. 2037. President.] Tou ought, as a public man, to remember that the press and public are admitted here, and you yourself know^ that if these statements go forth to the public, without the Commissioners on their side coming forward, it may cause the public to be frightened, and convey a wrong impression. I should feel sorry that we had allowed any one to be present if these charges are to be made. Tou musl not make charges that will frighten people until at least you have heard all the evidence. We do not care about the Eailway Commissioners any more than we care about anyone else in this inquiry; but if we think our report should be favourable to the Baldwin engines we shall give it in that direction ; or if we 'find that the Baldwin engines are defective, we shall bring in a report accordingly. 2038. Mr. Hoyle.] I have no further questions to ask the witness if he has not been down the South Coast Line. Charles Baggs, being sworn, said : — 2039. I am Sub-Inspecter of the Locomotive Department, and am stationed at Eskbank. 2040. President!] How long have you been in the service of the Department ? About 23 years. 2041. Mr. Hoyle!] Did you have much experience with these Baldwin engines at Eskbank ? Well, they . jjassed through there ; there are none stationed at Eskbank. 21 April, 1892. 2042. Do you remember whether on Ifriday last there was an accident to one of these engines on the Mountains ? I do not remember any accident to them. 2043. Did any of them break down excentric strap ? Tes, I believe so, but it was not at Eskbank. 2044. Was any telegram sent to you about the matter ? No telegram was sent to me to " Send another engine on.'' 2045. Mr. Brown. 2046. Mr. Hoyle! He does not know personally that this accident happened. _^ A witness stated yesterday that an excentric strap had broken in one of these engines, and I was told that an engine was telegraphed for. 2047. Mr. Hoyle.] Was there any stoppage of the traffic between Eskbank and Penrith ? Tes, through an engine getting disabled. 2048. Do you know what happened to that engine ? Not personally ; there was nothing sent to me about it. 2049. How then do you know it was disabled r" Only by hearsay. 2050., President.] I suppose a telegram was sent along the line ':' No telegram was sent to me. 2051. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you know whether at any time the brake-gear failed in any of these engines, about Jjithgow or Eskbs-uk ; have a.r\j trains been detained on thfit'account ? No trains h^ve been delayed by breaking *®' BAIDWnr IiOCOMOXrVES INQriET COMMISSION — MINtTTBS OE ETIDENCE, „ ^'- breaking of brake-gear at Eskbank ; engines have come into the station with defective brake-gear, and we ^..^.^Jl^^ bave repaired them. They only bring the train as far as Eskbank, and the accident would be repaired by 21April,l892. ^^f *™® ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ starting again. There- was a lever broke one day belonging to the tender ; that, I " think, was about the greatest defect that has occurred to the brake-gear. 2052. Tou say you do not know of any train being delayed at Eskbank by the failure of the brake-gear or reyersing-gear ? There has been a delay on account of the reversing-gear ; the train was delayed until we got another engine. 2053. Tou had to take one engine off and put another on? Yes, there was a delay of about 37 minutes to a mail train. 2054. "When was that ? On the 1st April, I think. 2055. Do you know the number of the engine ? On the 1st April, it was 450. 2056. Do you know of any other failure in any part of these engines which came under your personal knowledge? No. 2057. Did none of the axles ever go wrong at Eskbank? Yes ; we have had the tender bearings hot, that is all. 2058. Have you had them running hot lately ? No, not lately. 2059. How long ago ? About two months ago. 2060. Not since? No. 2061. Have you had any trouble with the bogie wheels ? No. 2062. No trouble at all ? None. 2063. Or with any of the other, wheels. Have you detected anything wrong about the other wheels at all? No. 2064. Have you examined these wheels and found any defects in them ? No. 2065. And what appeared to be blow holes in the cast iron ? No. 2066. What you ordinarily know as blow holes in the cast-iron, have you not found any defects of that kind in them? No. 2067. Have you examined them minutely? Not very minutely, because the engines have not been stationed at Eskbank. 2068. Mr. Brown.'] Are these engines giving satisfaction in the work they are doing, so far as they have come under your observation ? I think they are. 2069. President.] Who is the next witness ? 2070. Mr. Hoyle.] I do not think I can call any. I wanted to call the Engineer-in-Chief, but Professor Warren wants some documents from him, so, in the absence of these papers, I would rather not call him. 2071. Mr. Broion.] You can examine him so far, but if you do not want to call him now, of course we are satisfied, Mr. Hoyle. 2072. Mr. Hoyle.] Well, I will go on if he can be found. jy-j, Mr. Henry Deane, being sworn, said : — p. Deane. 2073. I am Engineer-in-Chief for Eailway Construction. ^»-ikj\^->^ 2074. President.] How many years experience have you had in regard to the railways of this Colony ? ^1 April, 1892. My experience dates from the year 1867 ; since then I have had railway experience off and on ; I have had over 12 years of it in this Colony alone. 2075. And before that where were you ? In London and in Hungary chiefly. 2076. Mr Soyle^] Did your Department prepare the plans for the construction of the South Coast Eailway, Mr. Deane ? Yes. 2077. That line, I presume, was carried out under the supervision of your ofiScers ? Yes. 2078. Were the platforms and stations on that line made to the standard gauge of the Department ? I believe so. 2079. But I presume that the gentlemen in charge of it would have direct instructions, and that your plans would show that these stations ought to be erected to gauge ? Yes. 2080. Do you know if any of these platforms, upon the completion of the line, were out of gauge ? I am not aware of it. 2081. Had your Inspectors to pass this work before the contractors were paid ? Yes. 2082. Would it be part of his duty to examine these platforms, to see that the work had been carried out according to plans ? Certainly. 2083. And did your officers report to you that everything was all right — that the platforms and stations were according to plans ? They did not report to me because I was not Engineer-in-Chief at that time. Mr. Whitton was Engineer-in-Chief. 2084. But they i:eported to Mr. Whitton, you say : Are the reports in your office now ? Not on that subject specially that I know of. 2085. Were any reports made when the work was taken over by the Inspectors ? Before the works were taken over an inspection was made by the Engineer-in-Chief. 2086. Just so, and that was' Mr. Whitton ? Yes. 2087. Have you any reason to believe that these platforms on the Illawarra line were not to gauge — that they were not made according to the plans ? I have no information on the subject. They were presumably to gauge. 2088. The whole of the platforms on the line ? All that were constructed by the Eailway Construction Branch. 2089. Just so. But you had nothing to do with the plans in connection with the duplication work on the Southern Line from G-ranville to CampbeUtown ? No. \ 2090. Had you anything to do with the construction of the duplication from Parramatta to Penrith ? No. 2091. Your Department had nothing to do with that? No. 2092. But you had to do, of course, with the South Coast and North Coast liaes ? Yes. You mean by the North Coast Line the connecting line between Sydney and Newcastle ? 2093. Yes. Can you tell me whether the structures on that line are the structures that were erected when the line was made. That is the permanent structures I mean, I am not referring to wooden platforms that may have been erected since, but I mean the permanent station buildings, were they constructed when you made the line ? Some of them were. 2094. Such as Eyde, f orinstanee ? Ryde and Eastwood, and Hornsby were erected then. Carliugford is a new station. 2095. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIRY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 71 2093. Have you any reason to believe they were not to gauge ? No. Mr. 2096. I am asking you these questions, because it has been said that certain alterations were made to the H. Deane. platforms because they were not to gauge ? "Well, they were never reported to me as being out of gauge. ofT^'ViMa 2097. Never reported to you as being out of gauge at all. Do you think that if they had been out of ^a ^pni, i»»2. gauge — of course it is an important thing where an engine has to pass a platform that no part of the engine should come in contact with the structure — do you therefore think that if the platforms had been out of gauge, it would have been reported to you ? If it had been found out before the line was handed over, it would have been reported as a matter of course. 2098. But have you ever heard until recently that the rails and platforms were out of gauge ? Well, I always believed that the work constructed by the oflScers of my branch is very carefully carried out. 2099. That such work has been carried out according to plans ? Tes, I always believed so. 2100. Professor Warren.'] "Was Mr. Pirth the engineer of the, Southern line ? Tes. 2101. Mr. Firth has had a large experience, of course ? Yes. 2102. Tou think it unlikely that a man of Mr. Pirth's experience would make a mistake in a simple measurement such as that involved in the width of two platforms, or. the width of the rails between two platforms? Well, as you mentioned Mr. Pirth, I will tell you what did occur. He was living at Arneliffe, and I noticed that the platform there had been chipped away, so I asked him to measure them, and he measured them and found that they were exactly according to. plans, but the explanation that I had afterwards was that the road was out of gauge, and that it had been found easier to chip the platforms than to alter the road. The road, however, to the best of my belief-^Mr. Firth can say whether it was the case or not — was placed originally to gauge, but afterwards the rails may have been shifted by the permanent way men. Under those circumstances, rather than shift the road, which would have been a heavy and troublesome matter, they chipped a little off the platforms. 2103. Mr. Hoyle.'] We will take an instance in which a platform stands on a curve — Otford platform. If your department left that platform to gauge, the curve I presume would be a true curve ? Tes. 2104. If the line moved in towards the platform, in order to bring that curve back to its former position, I presume the line should be shifted back again so that the curve would remain it its true radius ? I do not think I quite understand. 2105. Take the Otford tunnel. The platform there is on a curve ? Otford Station, you mean ? 2106. Tes, the station stands on a curve — if the line moved in towards the station the true radius of the curve would be destroyed, I presume? Inappreciably. 2107. Presiden.t.'] Supposing the rails got moved in a little, that would destroy the trueness of the curve? It need not destroy it appreciably. 2108. Would it have been the right thing in regard to these stations to chip the platform or to pnt the rails in their proper position ? Well, I should prefer to have the road in its proper position, but it is a question of cost to a large extent. 2109. What part of the inquiry does that tend to, even supposing the platform was chipped very wrongly ? 2110. Mr. Sot/le.] Well, Mr. Poxlee stated that the Otford platform was out of gauge, and that by altering the rails they would destroy the curve. 2111. President.'] Supposing that you even got these gentlemen to disagree upon what was the right thing to do what bearing has it upon the Baldwin engines — how can it show that they are unsuitable to the permanent way. One of two things has to occur either the road has to be shifted or the platform has to be chipped. How does either of these things show that the engines were unsuitable to the road, unless, as I put it before, the buildings were of such a kind as to be so absolutely mixed up with the per- manent way, that you would have to look upon them as part of the permanent-way. That is to say that they were permanent valuable structures. How does this bear upon the matter — whether the rail is shifted or the platform is chipped ? 2112. Mr. Soyle.] Do you consider, Mr. Deane, that the permanent station structures are part of the permanent way ? No, the permanent way properly speaking includes rails, fastenings, sleepers, and ballast. 2113. Mr. Fehon.] In reference to the question put by Mr. Hoyle just now it would appear that Mr. Poxlee is at variance with Mr. Deane, but if you will refer to question 845 you will find that Mr. JPoxlee was asked, " Have you any reason to believe that the rails had not really moved in towards the station," his reply being " I am not quite sure whether any alteration was made at Otford at all, but speaking generally, it is quite possible that where the rails were found too near the platform they had slewed from their original position, and in that case we should give them the necessary clearance by slewing them back." 2114. Mr. Brown.] Would it not be just as well for you to let Mr. Hoyle finish and then for you to contradict him afterwards ? 2115. Mr. Fehon.] Certainly. 2116. Mr Soyle (to witness).] When you are constructing a line, do not you take into consideration the weight of the rolling stock that is going to run on it ? Tou have to take into consideration the traffic that the line has to carry. . • . . 2117. Is there no rule which would guide you in that matter ; for instance, are you guided in any way by the weight on the driving-wheels of engines ? I think it is a matter for experience more than anything else. The heavier your permanent way is the more expensive it is, but the more durable it is, Np one would think of running heavy locomotives over light rails. At the same time there is a certain amount of latitude allowable iu the weight of the rails. I mean to say that you can run heavy locomotives, like those recently imported by the Eailway Commissioners over the existing rails, indeed, upon rails varying very considerably in weight. 2118. Professor Warren.] With perfect safety ? With perfect safety. 2119. But not with economy ? It would not be economical to run heavy rolling stock on very light rails, of course. If there is heavy traffic, the more material there is in the rails for wear, the greater the economy. 2120. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you think, Mr. Deane, that to run these engines of 92 tons weight at a high rate of speed over a 70-lb. iron rail is perfectly safe ? I have not gone into that question. 2121. But do you think it is perfectly safe to run a 92-ton engine and tender upon them ,— would it not have the effect of spreading the road or making it in some way unsafe ? Oh, I should not think sp. '2122. 72 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIuy COMMISSION— MIHUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. 2122. "We have 71-lb. rails now, have we not? Yes, but they are of steel. ^ ., ^, ^ H. Deane. 2123. But we have a few 70-lb. iron rails, bave we not ? Yes ; I think we have a few 1 consider that 2lTriri892 ^^^ ''^■^^- ^^^^^' screwed and spiked to the sleepers as they are, form a fairly steady road over which loads ^" ' ■ can be run at a high speed. , , , . . , , ■ i. j 2124. And you do not think then that engines running at that speed with the dnvmg-wheels weighted as those of the Baldwin engines are would tend to spread the road, or to make it in such a condition that extra expense would have to be incurred to keep them in good order ? That is a matter that i have not considered very carefuUy. j j. • 2125. And you therefore are not at present prepared to give an opinion ? I am not prepared to give an opinion. , 2126. Have you any doubts about the matter at all ? As to the suitability of the roads to carry these heavy loads? j o t i, r 2127. As to the suitability of the roads to carry these heavy loads at a high rate of speed f 1 believe it can be done with perfect safety. ., 2128. Also an engine of a greater weight— an engine weighing 97 tons— running, of couse, at a low rate of speed, at a rate of speed not exceeding 18 miles an hour, can that also be run with perteet satety on our roads ? Yes ; I can understand the economy of putting heavier rails in, and it is very likely that it thequestionof the weight of rails was considered over again, and it was known that the heavy engines would have to be used, perhaps a heavier rail would be employed. It is more economical to use a heavy rail, but at the same time a 71-lb. steel rail can be used with perfect safety. 2129. But would the running of the heavy engines over a 71-lb. rail necessitate extra vigilance m keeping the road in repair. I believe that at present three or four men are employed to look after 13 miles of road, and I want to know whether it would require an extra number of men to keep that distance m a perfectly safe state of repair, and consequently entail greater cost upon the Department, if these heavy engines were run upon 71-lb. rails ? The more the work done by the roads the more vigilance and care it would necessitate. 2130. The load is about 15 tons on the driving wheel ? Yes. . , , . 2131. And you think that with that load on the driving-wheel extra vigilance should be shown m looking after the permanent way ? I dare say ; but I suppose that whatever is necessary is done. You see I am not connected with the permanent way. I do not know that I can give you any valuable information upon the subject, but I think that the common-sense answer is, — ^the more work the road has to do the more in the way of maintenance it requires. At the same time the difference may be inappreciable. 2132. But they may not be running more trains now than they did before ;— what I want to get at is whether the heavier trains would have the effect that I have described ? To some extent no doubt they would, but I do not know that there would be very much difference due to the few tons extra weight. 2133. Well, would they knock the road about more, do you think ;— would these heavy engines be liable to knock the road about more? That depends principally upon the build of engine, because light engines may knock the road about more than heavy ones. I am not prepared to give any opinion on the subject as to the effect of any particular engine in use, because I have not gone into the question at all. I have not the information at hand to enable me to give any opinion upon it. 2134. But if you were called upon to-morrow to construct a line upon which it was intended to use these heavy Baldwin engines, would you recommend the construction of a line of 70-lb. rails, either for the sake of economy or for the sake of safety ? I should think it perfectly safe to do so if there were not a large amount of traffic on the line. If it were a suburban line I should certainly adopt a heavier rail, as the Kailway Commissioners have done. 2135. Would that be for reasons of safety ? More for reasons of economy. 2136. But would not want of stability guide you in that case ? 2137. President.'] Want of stability as regards danger is one thing, and the witness has already said that there would be no danger whatever ; but want of stability with a view to economy is another thing, and taking that into consideration, he tells you that he would use a heavier rail. He therefore answers your question. 2138. Professor Warren.] You would be guided by the traffic, I suppose ? Yes. 2139. I thought of asking you some questions with regard to the stability of the bridges, but at that time I hoped to have the report of the Bridges Commission before me. I wanted to ask you how you thought the bridges would come out when loaded with these heavy engines. I am speaking now mostly from memory, but take the Solitary Creek Bridge for example, it is a 60-feet span, and, according to the inquiry, the tensile stress in the flanges was about 5| to 6 tons when loaded with the Consolidation engines, in fact, when loaded with If tons per foot run. These engines are 97 tons, and the weight on the driving-wheels is 15 tons. Do not you think it will be necessary to increase the strength of the cross girders by some means or other, aud also the main girders, or to take some means to render such bridges capable of taking these heavy loads without being unduly strained? I may say that with regard to the older structures I had a conference with Mr. Poxlee as to the best way of strengthening them, but I cannot tell you at present what conclusions were arrived at with regard to the different bridges. I know, however, that at the time we considered the desirability of strengthening a number of them. It was proposed to strengthen them indirectly by putting a beam on the top so as to distribute the weight in a better manner. 2140. That was suggested by the Bridges Commission ; I believe I have a very vivid recollection of that ? Yes ; it is a very natural suggestion to make. 2141. And with regard to the main girders, if I remember rightly, it was suggested that a third girder, might perhaps be put where the head room permitted in the middle of the road; at all events it really is proposed to strengthen the bridges which would be unduly stressed either by the Baldwin or the other engines ? Yes ; I believe that instructions have been given to Mr. Toxlee to prepare the necessary plans, and he told me only a short time ago that he was preparing them. 2142. If you take the wheel-base of the Consolidation engine, it amounts to 4 tons per foot run ; the whole of that wheel-base could stand on a short-span bridge such as the timber viaducts ; — do you not • think that the timber viaducts and designs will have to be materially strengthened to carry these heavy loads ? Yes ; I have a new design for the timber viaducts that makes them very much stronger and better adapted to carry these heavy loads. Of course, with regard to older structures the factor of safety is reduced very miich, and I do not- know that anything can be done but to pull them down and build new ones. 2143. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE INQIFIBT COMMISSIOlf — MIlftrTES OF EVIDENCE. 73 2143. It is the siort span-bridgea I am inquiring particularly about ? Yes ; I do not anticipate any Mr. danger on the long-span bridge, because tbe load is distributed. " ^^"'^ 2144. That is all! think of at present, though probably when we have certain returns before us we shall 2iApriri892, call you again ? If there is anything which requires mature consideration I should be very glad to know ^ ' beforehand, that I might form an opinion which would really be of value. To give an opinion at a short notice is not always very easy. 2145. President.'] Tou have seen these Baldwin engines ? Tes. 2146. Tou know the loads that they can carry ? Tes. 2147. Bo you know the different parts of the lines that the engines go over at present ; for instance, we hear that they are running on the mountains, also on the Southern line ? 2148. Mr. Fehon.'] No ; there are none on the Southern line, but there are on the Western. 2149. President (to Witness).] Tou know, at all events, the parts of the Western line that these engines travel over ? Tes. 2150. Are there any bridges which it would be dangerous for them to travel over ? Tes ; there is the Solitary Creek bridge. 2151. Where is that ? It is on the Western line, between Tarana and Eskbank. 2152. Professor Warren^ It goes to Bathurst, does it not ? 2153. Mr. Fehon.] Tes. 2154. President.] Then I want you to tell me plainly now what you think. Do you consider it safe, considering the weight of the engines themselves, and the weight of the loaded carriages that they have to draw, for them to travel over that bridge in its present condition ? 2155. Professor Warren.'] It is a 60-feet span. 2156. fVitness.] I do not remember what the stress would come out at. Of course, anything that is under the limit of elasticity is perfectly safe, but it shortens the life of the bridge every time a heavy load goes over it. 2157. Mr. Brown.] As a matter of fact, these engines do go over it, don't they ? Tes. 2158. What I want to know is, whether there is any danger on that account ? I do not consider that there is any immediate danger, 2159. Professor Warren.] But you would not Hike to subject a bridge of that kind to 7 tons tension ? No, I would take prompt measures to strengthen the bridges. 2160. I do not say that the Solitary Creek bridge is not safe, you understand ? Well, the stress would not be in proportion to the live load ; it would be in proportion to the 70 tons plus the dead load, in the case of the lighter engines, as against 92 tons plus the dead load in the case of the heavier engines. 2161. As a matter of fact it is 97 tons, not 92, in the case of the Consolidation engines ? The dead load would be about 12 cwt. to the foot. 2162. About that ? Well, that is a little over half a ton. 2163. It is all in the report of the Bridge Commission, and I am sorry that I have not got it here. We wiU get it, however, and then we may like your opinion as to the stability of those bridges that are built by the Construction Branch, although you were not in charge at the time. We ought to have your opinion as to whether the various bridges will carry the load brought upon them by the Baldwin Consolidation engines without being strengthened ? Very well. 2164. President.] With regard to the platforms, you say that Mr. Whitton gave instructions, I suppose, that they should all be built to a certain gauge ? Tes. 2165. Would it have been part of his duties as Engineer-in-Chief to tell his officers what distance to put the platforms apart, and whereabouts to lay the rails ? Tes, these dimensions will be seen in the drawings. 2166. Which would be either prepared by him, or done by liis officers under his supervision? Tes. 2167. Professor Warren.] The drawings will show the position of the platforms, the position of the rails, and all particulars with regard to the buildings on the platforms ? Tes. 2168. President.] Suppose they were really not built to gauge — suppose it was found that they varied 7 or 8 inches, how could you account for that ; would it be through the shifting of the rails ? Well, I cannot account for it at all. I do not know that I need account for it, because I understand that the work was done by the Existing Lines Branch, and not by Mr. Whitton's ofi&cers. 2169. But, however that may be, can you account for the variations ? No, I cannot ; I can understand that on certain portions of the older lines the gauge may be wrong as compared with the present gauge, because I think that before the year 1878 the gauge was narrower. The platforms were placed closer to each other where there was a pair ; where there was a single platform, closer to the centre of the rail. The distance used to be 4 feet 9 inches from the centre of the road. Erom that date, or from some date about that time, it was made 5 feet. 2170. Professor Warren.] That is from the centre of the rail to the edge of the platform ? Tes, previous to that time all rolling stock was generally made narrower. I believe it was then altered to suit a new type of engine, but since that time, so far as I am aware, everything that has been done by the Railway Construction Branch has been carried out to that gauge — that is, 5 feet from the centre of the rails. 2171. Mr. So'i/le.] And was that 5-feet gauge adopted on the Illawarra line ? Tes, it was. 2172. Do you say that Mr. Firth was the officer who measured the platforms when this question came up ? Tes ; he was in charge of the construction of the Illawarra line — up to this side of the Coal Cliff tunnel. 2173. That is the last tunnel from here ? Tes, the last of the long tunnels. 2174. And who was the officer beyond that ? Mr. Alexander. 2175. President.] I think you wanted to ask a question, Mr. Eehon. 2176. Mr. FeTion.] I wanted to ask Mr. Deane whether, in his opinion, an engine of the weight of the Baldwin engine or two lighter engines put together to draw the same load would be more disastrous to the permanent-way ? 1 dare say one good steady engine strong enough to carry its load would be less on . the permanent-way than two lighter engines. 2177. With regard to the bridges, we shall be prepared to give you all the information you asked for in evidence. We have had reports of all the bridges and railway structures made since the arrival of the Baldwin engines. 2178. President.] Very well ; that seems to be a very important matter, because if these engines were unsuitable to the bridges, then it would amount to the fact that they were unsuitable to the permanent- way. 6— K 2179, u BALD-WIN IiOCOMOTITE ITTQTriRT COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYISINCE. Mr. H. Deane. 2179. Mr. Fehon.'] Tes ; the surface of a bridge might be considered permahent-way. , 2180. JProfessor Warren.'] I think so, certainly for the purpose of this enquiry. al April, 1892. 21^1- ^^- FeTionI] With regard to the proposed tests of engines, the Eailwiiy Commissioners seem to think that after the evidence we shall be able to place before you, you may consider that there is no necessity for any of these trials. 2182. Professor Warren.'] Tor any trials ? 2183. Mr. Fe'hon.] Tes, for any trials ; we hope that we shall be able to give you Such substantial informa- tion in regard to these engines and to the other engines — because every engine has its maximum load, and we can tell you what their performances are under these loads — that it will be [unneceseary for you to make the experiments. 2184. President.] Perhaps Professor Warren will hear the evidence and then decide the matter. 2185. Professor Warren.] If we can get out of making the trials so much the better. TUHSBAT, 26 APBIL, 1892. (^Tlie Commission met at 2 o'clock in tJie Board Boom, Colonial Secretary s Office^ 3Pr£S£ttt:— P. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.C, President. Peopessob WAEREN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDEE BEOWN, Esq., J.P. ■ Edwin MoUoy Halligan, being sworn, saith : — Mr. E. M. 2186. I am divisional engineer on the norther division of the railways. I have been seventeen years and Halligan. three months in the railway service. /■^^A^-> 2187. Mr. Soyle.] Since you have been divisional engineer in the northern district have any alterations 26 April,1892. or additions been made to the platform at Murrurundi and Parley ? Tes. 2188. Can you tell us when these additions or alterations were made ? I could not from memory tell the exact date. 2189. Were plans issued for the work from your division ? iN'o ; not from my office, but from the head office. 2190. I presume such plans would be seen by the head engineer ? Tes. 2191. lilr. Brown.] Try and fix some date if you can, he may give you the year or month, 2192. Mr. Hoyle.] When was it? About fourteen months ago, I should say. 2193. Haye there been any addition since that ? Ko ; I think not. 2194. Have any additions been made to the structure or permanent-way since the Baldwin engines came here? No. 2195. Have you made any alteration to them since the Baldwin engines came to Newcastle. We made some alterations to the buildings, but not to the platforms. 2196. Tou are quite sure ? Tes. 2197. Did you accompany other officers on a trial trip of the Baldwin engines to the north ? Tes ; I did. I was away about four days altogether. 2198. What was that trial for ? To see if she would go over the lines and through the stations properly, and to give her a trial run was what I understood from the locomotive engineer. 2199. Was it necessary after this trial to do anything to the platforms to permit these engines to go by with safety ? No ; nothing was done since. 2200. Then you say positively that no alterations were made to the Murrurundi and Parley Platforms since the engines came here ? Tes, I say so. 2201. Mr. Brown.] Were any alterations made prior to the engines arriving ? Tes. 2202. How long before ? They were altered six months before, and some up to date of arrival in Newcastle. 2203. Were many of them altered ? A great number of the platforms. 2204. Nearly all of them ? Tes ; nearly all on the old line. 2205. When were these alterations begun ? About fourteen months ago. 2206. January, 1891 ? Tes ; I think that is the date about fourteen months ago. 2207. Tou know the Baldwin passenger and Consolidation engine ; — I presume you know their weights ? Tes. 2208. They are, I think, 92 and 97 tons respectively ? Tes, I believe so ; the one is 92 tons and the other somewhat heavier. 2209. Do you think, as an engineer, that the running of these engines at a high rate of speed, (say) 20 miles an hour, would in any way injure the road ? No ; certainly not. 2210. Tou do not think it would have an injurious effect upon the permanent- way, such as spreading or causing extra repairs, or requiring extra vigilance for watching the road ? No ; 1 am certain from ray experience that it is not so. 2211. But you have had very little experience of these engines upon that road, because, as a matter of fact they have run for a very little time upon it ; — have you had any experience of engines of a similar weight ? Tes ; the couple engines. 2212. The old Consolidation you mean ? They did more damage to the road. 2213. Why? I do not know ; but the effect is not so great now — not so great as formerly, but what the reason is I cannot say, 2214. Professor Warren.] They weigh 75 tons, I believe ? Tes, I believe so. 2215. Mr. Hoyle.] Did they affect the road injuriously ? Tes. 2216. But these engines are heavy, and yet you say that they had no injurious effect upon the roadway ? Well, tbey did not give the same trouble to the men. 2217. How long were these engines running upon the Northern line ? Well, they have been running on and off. 2218. Have yoa any running now— I mean the Baldwin passenger engines ? Tes ; I have seen them within the last fortnight myself. They have been running from Newcastle to Sydney occasionally. 2219. Professor Warren.] Was it the express train. I do not know. It was the Saturday afternoon' train 2220. . BALDWIN LOCOMOTITE INQTJIET COMMISSION — MIHTJTES OF ETIDENCE. 75 2220. Mr. Soyle.] Do they run regularly now ? No. '^•^- ^• 2221. "Well, liow long were they running from Newcastle north ? They have not been running frop New- ~_J^^ castle north at all. I have not any information as to that at all. I am only giving information with ^^ ..j ^g^^^ regard to their running between Newcastle and Sydney. 2222. Do you consider that under the circumstances, considering that they have been running so_ short a time, you have had sufficient opportunity to form an opinion ? Yes ; I have formed my opinion as I have given it to you. 2223. Then it is your opinion that these engines have no injurious effect upon the road ? No more than you would expect any ordinary engine to have. You must expect all engines to have some effect on the line, 2224. Would the running of these engines without any extra supervision would you not say put the road in state of disrepair and make it dangerous ? Certainly not. 2225. Frofessor Warren.'] You stated that the Consolidation engines which the Baldwin Engine Company supplied some time ago are 75 tons weight, and some of them, I understand you to say, would have a greater effect upon the road in causing spreading and in requiring repairs than the new passenger engines we are dealing with ? Yes ; that has been my report, sir. 2226. Do you not think that it is somewhat remarkable they are built by the same firm and have the same ratio ; the only difference is that one is heavier than the other ? The engines which ran the express trains prior to the Baldwin engines were coupled ; we had two coupled together. 2227. Oh, then what you mean is that two engines coupled together had greater effect upon the roadway than one of the Baldwin engines ? Yes. 2228. I understood at the time that 'you referred to one of these 75-ton engines, then what yba do mean is that two of these engines coupled together produce a greater effect upon the roadway — far greater ? Yes. 2229. Mr. Soyle.] I understood you to mean that the old Consolidation engine, weighing about 75 tons, had a worse effect upon the permanent way than the engines now run ? I meant the express train — the two engines coupled together, as to one of these engines and the Baldwin engine I could not have any means of comparison. 2230. You have had engines running express without the assistance of another engine ? Yes, and some of them are running now. The English engines are running in the service now. The last^engine which came here. 2231. Is it running occasional trips ?. Yes. 2232. Professor Warren (to Mr. Hoyle).] But you were making the comparison, as I understood it, between two engines coupled together and the Baldwin engine ? Yes, that goes without saying. 2233. Mr. J3rown.] You told us that nearly all the platforms had been altered in the north^ — why was tjiat ? In order to get uniformity of gauge, I understood. There was a conference of engineers in Mr. Groodchap's time — in 1888, before the line was opened to Hawkesbury. Before I took charge of the northern district the platforms were all different gauges, and he wanted uniformity in them. 2233^. When was this work absolutely commenced ? About twelve months afterwards — about June. 2234. Were these platforms altered prior to the importation of the Baldwin engines ? Yes. 2235. Do you know whether they were altered before you started on the trial trip of which you have spoken ? Yes, I know that they were all altered. 2236. You did not see the engines touch anywhere ? No. 2237. Did the cab of the engine touch any of the platforms ? No, it did not touch anywhere, but.it was very close at some places. It was close at Cockle Creek. 2238. Were any alterations made after this trial trip ? Yes ; spouting was lifted about 3 inches at East Maitland and Cockle Creek. 2239. So far as you know, did these engines give satisfaction? I do not know, sir. I could not express an opinion upon that. 2240. Could you express an opinion whether they were suitable for our permanent way? Yes, sir. 2241. You have no hesitation in giving a qualified opinion that they were suitable in every way ? Yes. 2242. Frofessor Warren.] You say that certain platforms were altered upon the Newcastle and Sydney line. Well these lines have not been very long opened but the platforms were built originally in Mr. Whitton's time ; — do you imply that Mr. Whitton's officers built them out of gauge ? I do not imply that, but I found them slightly out of gauge. The road may have been built out of gauge, but I cannot say the reason why they were slightly out of gauge, as a matter of fact. 2243. Did you measure between the platforms ? No, sir, I measured from rail to platform. 2244. Well, what was the greatest difference ? I said that I measured from rail to platform, but I may add that in the case of a double line with big platforms we would measure over all. 2245. What you have said practically amounts to a charge that the Construction Branch constructed these lines out of gauge, and later on we shall have to ask some questions about that ; but did you find any great difference between them ? No, only in one place did we find any considerable difference. The difference might arise from pulling or setting out. 2246. Then you would not say the Construction BrancTi built the structures out of gauge ? No, I would not say so. The difference was so trifling on the Sydney line, and the other lines are all old things, that from Newcastle from 30 to 35 years old — they were built any way, old wooden platforms. Some of these were 2 feet and 2 feet 6 inches from rail, and 3 feet to 3 feet six inches high. 2247. Mr. Brown.] Did you measure the Newcastle station ? The Newcastle station is very shallow — being of a curve, the steps of the carriages might catch as the train came round quickly. 2248. Professor Warren.] What was the biggest alteration you made so far as you can remember ? Taking it from the rail, I should think about 4 inches would bo the greatest, 2249. Mr. Frown.] You remember the young fellow with you on the trial trip named Eobertson? Yes, sir. 2250. Did he observe a small contact when you were passing by Maitland. He says in answer to the question, " Were you watching throughout, and are you speaking of your own knowledge when you say it did not touch any of these veraijdahs or platforms ? I say it did not foul any of them. Did it not hit any of them ? No. Did it not knock any portion away? No; not that I am aware of." Well, would that be incorrect so far as East Maitland was concerned ? It would not be incorrect, sir, because I said we passed there very close— and we were going slowly ; if we had passed there going fast we might havetouched. 2251. ^6 BALDWIN lOCOMOTIYE INQTJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. E. m:. 2251. President.'] And therefore it would be wise to take down those parts of the structure that touched "f^"^ or nearly touched ? Tes. , ^ . j x xt. sel^riTlMa ^^^2- ^^- -2"o^^«-] Do you remember if an engine went out of Newcastle with a gauge fastened to the ' ■ buffer stock ? I do not remember it, but I understand that it was so. ^ , . , . 2253. Mr. Fehon.'] I have already objected to this question previously— the engine Mr. Hoyle is asking about is not a Baldwin engine. . j. ,1 -d u ■ 2254. Mr. Soyle.] What I want to point out is that this gauge was put on to show the size ot the iialdwm engine cylinder so that the necessary alterations might be made before the Baldwin engines were sent out ; I want to show that that was the object of having the gauge fastened to the buifer stock. 2255. President.] If that is so, and Mr. Hoyle wishes to show that this engine was made the same width as the Baldwin engine by putting a bar across it, in order, as he says, that these alterations m-gQ* be made prior to the Baldwin engines being brought out here, would not that be evidence, Mr. Fehon ? 2256. Mr. Felon.] My object in making the objection was to limit the inquiry to the question of the Baldwin engines themselves. 2257. President.] "Well, practically, are they not trying to make out that this engine was the same as the Baldwin in its effects. 2258. Mr. Fehon.] I do not want to object except to limit the inquiry. 2259. Mr. Brown.] I should have thought it would be a right thing to do to test these platforms before the arrival of the engines. 2260. Mr. Soyle.] "Will you tell us, then, why, having already put the platforms to gauge, why such an engine should be sent out to try the platforms and ascertain their gauge ? 2261. Witness.] I have not any reason, the first engine I know anything of, so far as ascertaining the gauge of the line, was the Baldwin engine itself. 2262. Was there any doubt about the Baldwin engine being so wide that the cylinders would come into contact ? I was satisfied that they could not. 2263. Was it to try the engines over the road as much as to test the gauge of the platforms that this trip was made ? My instructions were to try the platform. 2264. Then there was a doubt on your mind ? My instructions were such as I have said, and I carried them out. I put the lines back to a uniform gauge. 2265. If you had been consulted about sending this engine out with the gauge, you would not have recommended it ? I did not think anything about it, and I did not know anything about it till it came back. 2266. President.] Would it not be a proper precaution to take to have a practical test made ? Tes ; it would be better, I think, sir. 2267. Mr. Brown {placing doovment before witness).] Look at these figures. Judging by those figures, how much do you think the Newcastle Station would be out of gauge? I should think 41 inches. 2268. What does this " cant " mean ? That is to allow for the curve. 2269. These are the figures supplied by the Railway Commissioners, showing the difference between the platforms and the uniform gauge. Now, as a scientific man, how much is the Newcastle line out ? These are the old measurements. 2270. Bringing it into line again — bringing this platform to gauge — you would have to make some alter- ations, would you not ? The Commissioners, I understand, wanted to bring all the lines into uniform gauge in accordance with the Board of Trade Regulations. 2271. Now, I ask you how much would be required to bring the Newcastle line to this uniform gauge ? Four and a half inches, sir, I think, to make it to the 2 feet 8 inches — that is the uniform gauge. It formerly measured 2 feet 3f inches. Now it would be 2 feet 8i inches. 2272. What was the size of the coping-stone you removed from that station ? About 9 inches wide, I think, sir. 2273. I do not understand this uniform gauge, why should it be necessary to take up a coping-stone of 9 inches in width in order to add 4| inches to the gauge ? We only moved it back, sir ; we did not take it up. We put it back 4t inches from the edge. 2274. I see, that leaves it now 4^ inches more than it was ? Tes. 2275. Mr. Soyle.] Is your gauge now from the edge of the platform to the top of the outer edge of the rail 4 feet 9 inches ? No, it is 2 feet 8 inches ; the whole line would be 5 feet. 2276. Do you know that the English standard gauge is 2 feet 2i inches ? 2277. Mr. Brown.] Where is that measured from ? 2278. Mr. Jlot/le.] Prom the top of the platform to the outer edge of the rail next to the platform. In England the gauge overall is 4 feet 9 inches, but taken from the coping-stone to the outer edge of the nearest rail is 2 feet 2J inches. 2279. Mr. Brown.] Do not the Railway Commissioners measure the distance from the centre. 2280. Mr. Soi/le.] I suppose they do, and from the inner edge also. 2281. Mr. Fehon.] Tou might explain that prior to the Commissioners taking ofBce you represented to the Engineer for Existing Lines that many of the platforms were out of gauge, and pointed out the desirability of bringing them into gauge. 2282. Witness.] Tes, I did do so. 2283. President.] He said, I understood, that this was done in the year 1888 ? Tes. 2284. Mr. Brown.] He was, I understand, the first to draw attention to it. 2285. Witness.] I wanted the whole of these alterations to be made at once, but the late Commissioner said no, that they should be done as the men were available for the purpose. It has been a stock job, and we have done it as opportunity enabled us. 2286. President.] Tou set about it in June, 1888 ? Tes, it was in June, 1888. 2287. Mr. Fehon.] The Commissioners took ofiice in October, 1888. 2288. Witness.] My answer came from the late Commissioner, Mr. Groodchap. 2289. President.] When was it put earnestly in hand to make a regular job ? I think about twelve months after that. As nearly May or June in 1889 as possible. It was then begun as regular business. We had been pottering at it up to that time. 2290. It was then you made a regular job of it in order to do the matter out of hand ? Tes ; and I think it was about 1891 before it was finished completely. 2291, BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE INQIJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 77 2291. "Was it towards the end of that time that the work was hurried on ? Yes, it was finished off rather g^^j^ • ^• quickly. ^-^jC— ^ 2292. Why ? I do not know. 26 April,1892 2293. Mr. Fehon.'] I admit that the work was hurried on in anticipation of these engines coming. It was hurried on at the last in consequence of the Baldwin engines being brought out. 2294. Mr. Brown.'] In consequence you say of these engines ? 2295. Mr. Fehon.'] It was not begun on account of them, but it was hurried on on account of them. 2296. President.] Do you know whether any of the Baldwin engines are running on the Northern line beyond Newcastle ? Not regularly. There have been a few trips made by them on that line. 2297. Have they run as far as Wallangarra ? Tea, I have taken one right through there. 2298. Mr. Soyle.] "With a train ? No. I do not know the traffic there on that part of the line. I do not know how far they go once they leave Newcastle. Mr. John Love, being sworn, said : — 2299. I am an Engineer, and served my time in that calling. I have been nearly fourteen years in the Mr. J. Love. Railway Service of this Colony. Thirteen years and six months, I think, is about the exact time. I was / '^ — \ leading fitter, but now I am advanced to S. S. Inspector, Junee. 26 April, 1892 2300. Mr. JSoyle.] Since you have been stationed at Junee have any of the Baldwin engines come under your notice ; — have any of them run beyond Junee? Tes ; between Junee arid Goulburn. 2301. Since you have been there did a bogie axle break at the Junee Station? The right trailing bogie axle failed in the yard after it had left the down express. 2302. Professor 'Warren.] "What speed was it going at ? I do not think more than a mile an hour. 2303. I merely wish to know whether it was running fast or not at the time the axle broke ? It was running, I think, at about the rate of a mile an hour. 2304. Mr. Brown.] Do you know the rate at which it was going before it came into the shed — the rate during the trip ? I do not know. 2805. Cannot you give us some idea of what it was ? It would run at the rate of over 30 miles in some places. 2.306. It would be 20 or 30 miles, eh ; I only want to know the average rate of speed that a train like that would run between these places ? It would run from 30 to 35 miles an hour I should think. 2307. President^ How many days or weeks had it been running in this service ? It was in the district, I think, not more than three weeks. 2308. Mr. Hoyle.] How long was it from the time you unhooked the engine from the train — which was an express, I understand ? Tes. 2309. "Was it full of passengers ? I could not say. 2310. "Was it full ? I cannot say. 2311. How long a time elapsed between the engine leaving the express train until the axle broke ? About tea minutes. 2312. Did it not break whilst it was going from the train to the sheds ? I could not say. I was in bed at the time. 2313. "What report reached you ? I was called out- of bed and was told that the engine had been derailed. I got up at once and went there, and discovered that one wheel was ofE — that is to say, the axle had parted. 2314. Is not there an incline coming into the Junee Station ? Tes. 2315. And what speed was the train coming down that bank to the station at ? "Well, at about 30 miles an hour. 2316. Then you say that this wheel broke just after the engine had been taken off the main line? 2317. President.] He says he does not know exactly when it broke — is not that so ? Tes ; I could not say whether it twisted or broke, but it came off from the state of heat. 2318. Mr. Soyle.] What was the consequence ; was the train disabled ? No ; it was going on to Albury by that time. 2319. Well, I mean the engine ; was it disabled when the axle broke ? Tes, partly ; but by a little work I was able to run it into the shed easily enough. 2320. Well, suppose the axle did break coming down the- bank at 30 miles an hour, what would be the result ? I cannot say. It might have been a considerable accident, but I do not think that human life would have been endangered. 2321. Professor IVarren.] What was the position of the axle ? It was the right trailing- wheel of the bogie, or truck of the engine. 2322. Mr. Brown.] And he says that he does not think that an engine coming down a bank at about 30 miles an hour woiild endanger life if its axle broke. 2323. Professor 'Warren.] That is a matter of opinion. 2324. Mr. Brown.] Tes ; I would not have liked to have been on it at the time. 2325. Witness^ The brake would have stopped the train in the length of itself— the application of the air-brake would have brought the train up within a length or a length and a half of itself. 2326. Mr. Soyle.] But if the engine had gone over, and carried the carriage with it, what about the brake-van ? There was not much chance of that. 2327. President.] I think there was no need for that question, Mr. Hoyle. We have common-sense enough to see that if an engine went over a bank and drew the train with it what would happen. 2328. Professor Warren.] I really do not think, Mr. Hoyle, it is worth while asking questions as to what will happen. 2329. Mr. Brown.] The only thing is this, that if a train is going at the rate of 30 and 35 miles an hour, and can be pulled up within the distance it is said it can be without danger to any passengers, then it does not seem to matter what kind of axles these engines have. 2380. Mr. JSoyle.] No ; they may be wooden axles for the matter of that. 2331, Mr. Brown.] Exactly. 2332. 78 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITB INQUIET COMMISSION--MINTJTES OF ETIDENOE. Mr. J. U^e. 2332. Mr. Soute (to witness).! How did you find these engines ;— in what condition were they ? They 9fiT^^rT^o ^e^e just like other engines, with little defects in their details, which required to be seen to m oyaer to ZbApni.i892..|jj.jjjg ^i^gj^ jjj^^ working order ; hut you find that in all engines. 2333. Mr. Brown.'] Tou would not call a broken axle a little defect, would you P JN o ; not at aU- 2334. Mr. Soyle.] How long have you been stationed at Junee ? About two years, and i was at broul- burn before that, and Penrith and Bathurst before that. . i . . i i t • ■ xi, 2335. What experience have you had of other new engines, besides these, withm the last six years m the Service ? I have had the same experience as others in the same capacity. 2336. When did the last new engines come— the Scotch Yankees ? I have had nothing to do with them. I had something to do with the Vulcans. , , ^ • • • -it, 2337. Did you find with regard to them that there was as much trouble and cost in repairing as wit^ regard to the Baldwin engines ? Well, we had a lot of trouble with them, and have a lot o± trouble stUl. 2338. How long is it since they came here, a considerable time ? Xes. 2339. And you have had no experience with new engines since then? No. . . . ,, 2340. What was the matter with the Vulcan engines ? The valve gear was defective in them. 2341. Mr. Felon.'] I must object again to inquiries being ma;de about engines not concerned in this inquiry. 2342. Mr. Brown.] Do you not see how it arises— the witness says the repairs were not more than those required for other engines, and how can we compare these repairs unless we have some information with regard to the repairs made to other engines. . 2343. Mr. Fehon.'] We will submit the cost of repairs in any case with regard to the Baldwin engines or other. We shall give actual facts, and not mere opinions. 2344. Brofessor Warren.] I think the question is quite legitimate. 2345. Mr. Fehon.] The witness knows that a certain piece of mechanical work is to be doue, but other people keep the cost of doing the work against the various engines, and these items of cost are gathejied together, not only from Junee, but from all the running sheds on the road. 2346. Professor Warren.] The question in my opinion is a right one to ask, it is another matter whether the evidence may be of any importance after or not. 2347. President!] I think you may ask the question, Mr. Hoyle. Tou say, I understand that the Baldwin engines required certain repairs, and he says that all engines require some alterations in detail. I think now you have a right to ask whether he knows of other engines, and if so, what repairs they require. 234S. Mr. Hoyle.] What did you find in this instance were the defective parts ? They were not long enough there for me to get at the bottom of. all their little defects. 2349. How long were they there ? About three weeks. 2850. Do you not think, looking the fact in the face, and seeing that the engines were there only for three weeks, that the repairs were excessive, I mean the repairs that had to bo effected to the engines in that time ? No ; I do not think so. 2351. Of what engine are you speaking now ? I am speaking of the passenger Baldwin engines. 2352. Tou do not think the repairs were excessive ? No ; I do not think bo. 2353. Was there any bogie axle broken at Tass ? I believe there was. 2354. Was this engine attached to the passenger train ? I do not know. 2355. Is that in your district ? No ; it was in the Groulburn district. It was, I believe, a Junee engine, at least, so I heard. 2356. Was there any trouble in regard to any of the axles of the tenders ? No ; not the slightest. 2357. Did you examine the wheels in any of these engines ? No. 2358. Did you find any apparent defects in. them ? Tes ; I saw what appeared to be cracks, but oa sounding them, they appeared to be quite right ; I sounded them, with a hammer. 2359. Do you know how these tires are fastened on ? Tes ; they are shrunk on. 2360. Now, do you consider that when that tire was turned down to its extreme point, when you came within half-an-inch of the set screw when the tire was worn down that much, that the wheel would be safe ? There is no wheel safe, if it is turned down too much. 2361. Well, would not the English wheels with the tire turned down the tire in the same way be safe? They dp not go down so much. I think they go about If inch in the thread. 2362. Do you think such a wheel would be perfectly safe ? Tes, I do. 2363. President.] What do you mean by turned down ? I mean turned down in the lathe. 2364. Professsor Warren.] A smaller diameter. 2365. Mr. Soyle.] Was there any order whilst these engines were running in your district that the speed should be reduced to 20 miles an hour ? No. 2366. Do you know of any breakages in connection with the draw-gear whilst these engines were in your district ? No, never. 2367. Did the reversing-gear give any trouble ? Not the slightest. 2368. Or the brake-gear ? The brake gear is good. 2369. Do you consider, as an engineer, that the brake-gear on those engiues is strong enough as it is ? On the passenger trains it is quite strong enough. 2370. President.] When the bogie axle broke did you look at it and examine it at all? Yes, I saw it. 2371. Did you seek to find out what was the cause of the accident P I could see the cause of it. 2372. What was it ? Being over-heated. 2373. Did you keep the axle or did you send it on to Sydney ? It was sent on to Sydney that very day. 2374. Tou did not experiment with it to see what sort of stuff it was made of or anything of that sort ? No. 2375. Professor Warren.] He would not be allowed to do that. 2376. President.] How long have you been a fitter ? I have been twenty-eight years in the trade. 2377. A.nd you have seen many new engines ? I have had a varied experience. There are always some little things to be done in a new engine, there is no such thing as a perfect engine, I have never seen one yet. 2378. Tou only found out its defects by practice and use? Tes. 2379. Do these Baldwin engines, so far as you can judge, show more of these defects than other engines? Well, they have more pieces about them than an English engine — ^in consequence they are more liable to shake to pieces, but whilst they are new I do not think they are very much trouble, not more than other engines to keep them right. 2380. BALDWIir LOCOMOTITE INQtlET COMMISSIOK — MlNtlTES OF ETIDfiNCE. 79 2380. Looking at this as a hew engine and rememtering that there are always some little defects in these ^" J- ^°^^' engines until you get them into proper running order, can you say that there were more little defects to 2rT~^7qq2 remedy than in others ? "Well, no ; I cannot say so. pi" > • 2381. Mr. Brown.] Are you satisfied with the performances of these engines? Well; they work very satisfactorily ; I have ridden on them and thought that they worked very satisfactorily. 2382. Do you consider them safe and suitable for the permanent way of the Colony ? Tes, at a restricted 2383. Do you think you could get better engines for the work they have been doing? TeS, I think I could get better engines. 2384. "Which ? Some of the Scotch, I think. 2385. Do you think they would do the work just as well as these ? Tes. 2386. And not better ? Tes, better sometimes. 2387. President.'] Do you believe in English engines ? They are more compact. 2388. Mr. Brown.] Tou are better used to Scotch and English engines perhaps ? Tes ; I have had a good deal of experience of American engines here, and I have no reason to be dissatisiied iVith them, they do their work well, and the repairs are not excessive. 2389. President] But you like the Scotch engines better than the American, eh ? "Well I have built some of the Scotch myself. 2390. Do you like them better than the English? "Well, I cannot say I like the English better than the Scotch. 2391. Mr. Soyle.] "Whilst the express service was running in your district two engines were required of any description, other than the American engines, to draw them? Tes. "When the American were stopped they were pulled by two engines, the trains were so heavy ; I had to use two engines to do the Work of one American. 2392. "Why were they taken off ? I cannot say. 2893. Mr. Broion.] They gave you every satisfaction, you say, and they were doing the work of two engines. 239 4<. President.] He said that for the work they were doing one American engine could do the work of two others, 2395. Mr. Brown.] I understood you to say that when they took off the American engines from the express service they had to put on two ordinary engines to do the work of one American engine, and yet you cannot say why they were taken off ? I think tbey were stopped from running pending the examination of the axles. I cannot say all the axles, the axies of the bogie wheels at all events. 2396. These engines have been replaced in your district, have they not ? No. 2397. Mr. Royle.] Have you any experience of the Scotch-Tankee engines ? Tes ; I have seen them work and I have ridden on them. 2398. Do you consider the Baldwin engines as better than they are ? I do not say that. 2399. Do you consider that the Baldwin engine is better than the Scotch-Tankee ? I cannot tell that, I have not had the experience. 2400. Professor Warren^ I do not think that I would ask these questions, Mr. Hoyle, they do bear upon the inquiry in a sense, but they are so remote that I do not think that any answer you get would be of any great value. 2401. Mr. SoyleS] Can you tell us how many of these engines were in your charge? Nos. 453 and 456. No. 452 is the one that broke down at Junee and No. 456 failed at Tass. 2402. Mr. PeJion.] It might perhaps save a little time to the Commission and all of us if it were borne in mind by Mr. Hoyle that the Commission admit that the bogie axles were defective, and have had to be supplied and have been supplied at the expense of the Baldwin Engine Co. This person has been brought liere several hundred miles to tell the Commission what we already admit that these bogie axles were defective. 2403. Mr. Brown.] But he can tell us the circumstances under which the bogie axles were broken, 2404. Mr. Fehon.] "We admit that the bogie axles were broken. 2405. President.] That is admitted, I understand. The bogie axles when they came here were bad, and have since been replaced. 2406. Mr. Soyle.] I wish to show not only that one broke at Junee, but also that one broke at Tass, I think it is for you to ascertain whether there was any negligence or not in not taking these axies off immediately after the breakage. 2407. President.] Our duty you understand is to find out whether these engines were or are defective, whether they are suitable or unsuitable to the permanent way, and whether they are doing or are not doing the work they were expected to do ; and I understand you to say with regard to the latter words of the Commission that they were not doing the work they were expected to do, that you were not prepared to bring any evidence on that point. 2408. Mr. Soyle.] I said that I never said that they were not doing the work that they were expected to do, nor did I ever hear anyone else say so, find I pointed out that I was in fact making certain charges and my contention was that the Commission should try the charges I had made. 2409. President.] There is no charge that I know of under which what we seek to show now Would be evidence. "We cannot go on to inquire whether the railway people have been guilty of negligence m running something that they knew to be defective. There is nothing of that kind in any of the charges. It might perhaps be a very good thing if the whole question whether the department ever showed any neglect in its administration should be gone into, but our Commission is not so worded. We have only to determine whether they are defective or not suitable or not doing the work for which they were ordered. 2410. Mr. Brown.] Did I not understand that you proposed to give evidence as to certain allegations against the Commissioners, which you said had been made in the Press, that you intended to call some of the reporters in connection with this business — how then can you say that you have abandoned the charges contained in the Commission. Did you not allege that the Commissioners asserted that they were going to do certain work, and that you would prove from the reporters that these reports came from the Commissioners, and that these communications had not been borne out by facts ? 2411. Mr. Soyle.] I take up my position from what was in the public Press, and it was alleged in the Press, through the medium of inspired paragraphs, that these engines were going to do double the work of the old ones. 24!l2. Mr. Brown.] "Well, is that not included in the last part of the paragraph ? 2413. 80 BALDWIN lOCOMOTrVE INQTOIT COMMISSION — MINUTES OY ETIDENCE. Mr. J. Love. 2413. Mr. Soyle.] I saythat,as a matter of fact.tLeywere not intended to do double the work, and what I '--^^-^ intend to call the reporters for is to show that they were brought here to run the- express service, and a6April,1892. that they were afterwards taken off, and also that if they have had double the work put upon them that the draw-gear would become unsafe. I say they were brought here for the express service, and were afterwards taken ofE that service. 2414. Mr. Brown.'] Well, then, will you go on with the last part ? 2415. Mr. Hoyle.l Tes, I will go on with it. . . . . , j. t, 4. • 2416. Professor Warren.] We have put the tests aside, and we are now waiting for evidence as to wha,t is really the power of these engines, and when we get that evidence from the Commissioners we sfiaH decide whether these engines are doing the work they are expected to do or not. 2417. Mr. Soyle.] Then I wiU withdraw my objections with regard to the last paragraph. 2418. Mr. Fehon.] As to the negligence in keeping the engines at work after these axles had broken, it might clear the way, if I stated now that three axles which were broken broke withm eighteen hours oi 2419. Mr.' Soyle.] I ask why were they not immediately withdrawn from the passenger traffic. 2420. Mr. Fehon.] The passenger engines were immediately withdrawn, every one of the Baldwin engines was stopped from running a mixed or passenger or a mixed train from that time. 2421. Mr. Soyle.] "Were they stopped from running a goods train ? 2422. Mr. tehoni] Possibly not. 2423. President.] Supposing, Mr. Hoyle that you wanted to make a suggestion that these trains were run with neglect, has that anything to do with the matter we are inquiring into ? 2424. Mr. Soyle.] Tes ; I think so. 2425. Mr. Fehon.] I thought it my duty to make the statement]that I have. 2426. President:] I understand, Mr. Fehon, you wish to state the facts you have referred to on account of the Press being here, and that without your explanation an erroneous impression might be conveyed to the public. 2427. Mr. Fehon.] Tes. John PuUerton, being sworn, said : — Mr. 2428. I am an engine-driver at Bathurst, and I have been twelve years in the Eailway Service of this J. FuUerton. Colony, up to the 20th of January last ; I began as an engine-cleaner, then became afireman, then a driver. ^T~^, — an I ^*^® ^^^^ driving for twelve years, come the 1st of June next; I drive from Bathurst to Penrith, and I 26Apnl,1892. ^^^ driving until a month ago from Sydney to Bathurst, and from Bathurst to Sydney. 2429. Mr. Soyle.] Did you drive one of the Baldwin engines ? Tes. 2130. Could you tell us whether you had any trouble as a driver with those engines? No, I had no trouble with the running of the Baldwin engines. 2431. Have you had any failures in any of their parts? Tes. I had one failure, the excentric-strap broke. 2432. "When was that ? On G-ood Friday last. 2433. Did that engine break down — was she disabled ? Tes, on one side. 2434. Did you drive her further ? Tes ; I took her to Penrith with a passenger train with another engine attached. 2435. Another engine having to be sent for ? Tes. It went from Mount Victoria to Hartley Vale. 2436. Was that in the Penrith district ? Ko ; I do not think so. 2437. Do you know whether the engine came from Eskbank or not ? No ; it came from Mount Victoria. 2438. Where did you break down ? Hartley Vale. 2439. A telegram had to be sent on for assistance? Tes ; I was seiiding my fireman by the trycicle, and I wanted them to be ready on the arrival of the man, so as the engine would travel with aU possible speed. 2440. That is the ordinary precaution of the driver|to take in this case ? Oh, yes ; we do that to expedite the work. 2441. Have you had any failures of the draw-gear? No. 2442. Any of the reversing-gear ? Tes, one. The back pin of the reversing screw. 2443. Do you mean the fulcrum pin ? No, that is in the middle. It was the back pin of the reversing- screw. 2444. Did you ever receive a notice of this kind : — Notice to Drivers. Tlie number of broken draw-hooks is increasing considerably notwitlistanding all that has been done in the way of strengthening the draw-gear. It is feared that drivers are depending to much upon the increased strength of the draw-gear, and are becoming less careful. The application of the steam-brake is a freq^uent cause of broken draw-gear. This brake is only for use in emergencies and should not be depended upon for ordinary purposes. It has been decided that all cases of broken draw-gear shall be printed in the minutes of the Traffic Conference, when all particulars, including the names of the men concerned, will come under the notice of tho Commissioners. 2445. Witness.] Tes, I remember some such notice as that, Mr. Hoyle. 2446. Mr. Brown.] What are you seeking this information for ? 2447. Mr. Soyle.] It has been alleged that the failures in the draw-gear were owing to the carelessness of the drivers in applying the brake, that is why I am gettingthis notice in, it were issued before the Baldwin engines were imported. 2448. Mr. Brown.] All right. 2449. Mr. Soyle.] Do you know whether any draw-hooks or many of them have broken in connection with these engines in your district ? I do not know of any. 2450. Is it a fact that when this draw-gear breaks it does so through the carelessness of the drivers by jerking their engines or putting an undue strain upon the hooks ? Well, if I were to break a draw-bar I should be able to tell you, but I have not, if I had broken this draw-bar I should be able to tell you whether it was broken through want of experience on my part or not, as a matter of fact I have only broken about two draw-hooks in twelve years, so that I do not think that I can be put down as anything but a very careful driver. 2451. Mr. Soyle.] I am glad to hear that, because I have understood that you people are always breaking draw-hooks. 2452. Mr. Brown.] Some of them are pretty good at it. Witness. I can only speak for myself. 2453. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IKCjriRi' COMMISSION — MINUTJLS OF EVIDENCi;. 81 2l5ii. Mr. Soyle.] Do you think there is much carelessness amongst drivers in this matter ? _ Mr. 2454. President.] "What does his opinion about other drivers matter? I£ you can get the other drivers ''• FnUerton' themselves to prove that they have broken draw-gear, well and good ; but his opinion is nothing on a point n/7*~^VTI^, like that. ' ' ^''^P''"'^'*''^ 2455. Mr. Hot/le.] Can you tell us generally whether these men are careful or not ? I cannot say any- thing but that they are a careful class of men, because before going to driving they are examined on their merits, as to whether they understand their business or not, and also examined as to the Westing- house brake, and supplied with a pamphlet showing how they are to use them ; very often firemen are promoted from the foot-plate of passenger-engines, and they have every chance of seeing how the brake works ; these men before promotion are examined by the Locomotive Inspector, and as I have said, supplied with a copy of this pamphlet. 2456. Tou can assert positively that no brake-gear — I mean the rod attached to the brake — has been broken so far as you are concerned, by any carelessness in applying the brake ? I am quite sure of that. 2457. Mr. Fehon.] It applies to every engine, not only to the Baldwin. 2458. Witness.'] Of the two draw-hooks I have broken, one was about ten years ago, and the other about six years. 2459. President.] Did you drive a Baldwin engine ? I have been driving Baldwin engines for about the past twelve years, sir. 2460. But I refer to the recently-imported Baldwin engines ? "Well, I have had one of the new ones from the 31st December, 1891. 2461. Up till now ? Tes. 2462. Well, what do you say of them, as an engine-driver ? Well, my opinion would be borne out by results of what I have done. They are good engines, capable of doing their work, capable of doing the work they have been imported to do, if not more. I have done more than I have been asked to do with them. 2163. Did you find the draw-gear defective ? No ; one of the strongest draw-gear of any engine in the country. 2464. Did you find anything wrong with the reversing-gear ? Well, sir, one pin broke. 2465. Is that easily remedied by a larger pin being put in ? Tes ; I think it could be. 2 i66. Is it very serious ? Well, it is serious, and it is not. It is a matter of delaying an engine a little while. I was only booked 4 minutes late by the guard on account of the breakage. 2467. Mr. Brown.] As a driver, did these engines give you any satisfaction ? Oh, yes ; the engine I have driven gave me every satisfaction ; I have had only one warm bogie-box since I have had her ; they do their work admirably. 2468. Mr. Hoyle.] What is the number of your engine ? No. 454. I have run her up to 42 miles an hour. 2469. Have you run any of the other ones ? Yes. 2 170. Was it the same as the other — no failures ? It was No. 448 ; that was the one I had a failure with ; it was not my own engine. 2471. Did you find that they took greater loads than the ordinary engines ? Oh, yes. 2472. When you were going down a bank with these engines did you find any rolling with them ? There were one or two of them I have to do with which were just as steady as any of the Yankees, but the one I had myself rolled a little ; I would always steady an engine if it commenced to roll; I would do so if only for the sake of economy. I have had other engines roll just as badly as these. 2473. President.] What do you mean by " the sake of economy? " Well, if I were careless and allowed Ihe engine to roll, I would increase the friction of the boxes, and cause them to run hot, and that would mean more oil for lubrication. I always think it right to economise by going slowly round curves, besides having regard to the safety of the passengers and rolling stock. The engine I have rolls a little more than others, perhaps, but the two others I have run do not roll any more than others. 2474. What is that caused by ? It might be mere elasticity in the springs that might cause them to roU a little more than the other ones might do. 2475. Mr. Brown.] Tou are satisfied those are the engines you have been on ? Oh, yes. 2476. Professor Warren.] Do you know the loads you have had behind you ? Yes, quite well. 2477. What is the biggest load" you have taken up the 1 in 30, on the Penrith grade ? Sixteen and a half carriages. 2478. What does that mean in weight ? Multiply the carriages by 8 tons, that is the standard weight of each carriage. 2479. Mri Brown.] That would be 132 tons ? Yes. 2480. That is from Penrith, unassisted ? Yes. 2481. Professor Warren.] When you started with your engine, did you take a run at the grade ? Nothing more than with any other engine. 2482. When you settled down, at what rate of speed did you go ? My running time to Katoomba, taking my stops out— is that what you want ? 2483. I do not want it from Katoomba exactly, but as nearly as you can ? About 18 miles an hour. 2484. That is to say, you went down a grade of 1 in 30, with a load of 132 tons, at a rate of 18 miles an hour ? Yes ; that is, taking all the stops out. 2485. Mr. Fehon.] With regard to the breaking of the eccentric-strap, that is only one of such breakages that would probably occur to any engine ? Oh, yes ; I have seen reversing-screws broken before — there is nothing unusual in that. There is nothing that might not happen to any engine. 2486. On your return journey — you have spoken of your trip to Penrith and Katoomba — ^what load would you bring on a return trip ? Well, I have brought twenty-one trucks, and twenty on another occasion, from Wallerawarig. 2487. And you wer? able to mount the grade unassisted ? Yes, without any assistance. 2488. President] Coming up the Lithgow grade ? Yes. 2489. Was the train full of passengers ? Yes ; some were standing in the compartments. It was the heaviest-loaded train I have ever seen. Oa the day I had the G-overnor I had tweaty-one carriages, and that was just as heavy. 2490. Mr. Fehon.] Do you remember the 14th of April, you were driver of the second division of passenger train above 31? Tes. 2491. The first division went away with another class of engine, an ordinary express engine, and she had how many carriages on ? I suppose about nine, or nine and a half, but under ten, I know. 6— L 2492. 8«- BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRY COMIIISSION — MINUTES 01' EVIDENCE. t Ti-^ii" ^*^2. Did she get stuck? Tes, to Lawson slie lost about fifty minutes, and tlien I relieved her. I J. FuUerton. suggested to the guard that he should go iorward to the station-master, and he should take two of them ott ; SfiZlrirTRq? *^®y ^^^^ ^^out eighteen and a half carriages, and that left him one carriage and the brake-van. With ■*^ ' this additional load I made up five minutes of the lost time. He had been running m front ot me, and then as I have said I caught him up at Lawson, and took his two front carriages and attached them to my own carriages, thus making my own train eighteen and a half carriages all told, and I then took theni up to Katoomba. The engine attached to the first division had not been able to get on with nine and a-halt carriages, so, instead of allowing him to block me by delaying ia front, I considered it my duty to the Department and as man to man to take the two and attach them to my own carriages. 2493. "What class was that ? It was No. 273 that got stuck, and it belonged to the express class, the four-wheel couple generally known as the express class of engine, although as far as that is concerned my own engine is express because I ran it at 42 miles an hour. x, £ .l-l 2494. Professor Warren.'] But you are not allowed to run at that rate now ? Oh, that was betore the order, so I considered myself justified in doing it. 2495. Mr. Hoyle.'] Tou say that this train left here and started for the Mountains with nine and a halt carriages, and that she was in the first division and you had to run behind, and that she delayed you. you then got to some station and decided to take two carriages from her, and that left her one carriage and a brake-van, what became of the other carriages ? When I was speaking of carriages I meant in the sense of vehicles, they equalise the vehicles, so many vehicles are equal to so many carriages. 2496. Was this train only equal to nine or nine and a half ? Tes ; I know it was under ten. 2497. Then that would be four vehicles, could she not haul that load ? No, it seems not. 2498. Well, if she could not she ought to have been thrown on the scrap heap. 2499. Professor Warren.'] Tou speak of the carriage being 8 tons, must you not add to that the weight of the passengers in order to get the total load, are the passengers included in the 8 tons ? , 2500. Mr. FeJion.] Tes, the 8 tons cover everything. 2501. Mr. Hoyle.] Was it not stated to be 10 tons the other day ? 2502. Mr.FeJion:] Tes. 2503. President.] I suppose the other engine would have got the carriages to their destination right enough only you wanted to hurry them up ? Tes ; but it was blocking me, and I considered it my duty departmentally, and as one man to another to take these two carriages ; I took the carriages and made up five minutes of the time to Katoomba. Charles Hursthouse Stanger, being sworn, said : — Mr. 2504. I am at present employed by the Eailway Commissioners of New South Wales as out-door Loco- C.H.Stanger.jnotive Superintendent in charsje of the Northern and Western Divisions of the Railway system. T /'J"'"^^^ began to serve my apprenticeship in 1869. on the Great Northern Hallway Company in England. I have 26April,l892. fjggjj^ j,jg^ iq years in the service of ihis Colony, I commenced as a fitter at Bathurst. 2505. Mr. Hoyle.] I understand you, Mr. Stanger, among others recommended these engines ? Tes. 2506. Did you not before you recommended them know that an order had been sent to England for engines, and do you know how many engines were ordered ? I knew there were a considerable number ordered, I knew it was over 50 anyway. 2507. Did you know when you consulted with others that it was the custom to draw special attention to, and to specify for, all the materials to be put in the engine ? I know that when a locomotive superin- tendent of a railway is ordering his own engines he makes specifications, but under the circumstances in which we were asked to suggest engines there was not an opportunity of doing that — there was not time. 2508. Why was there this hurry ? I am not one of the parties who had anything to do with it, but I know there was a syndicate in England who were going to build these engines for ua within a certain time, and there was some hitch and we found that we were not likely to get them at all, and we did not, know how we we were going to get through the wool season. 2509. Had you anything to do with the specifications of these engines ? Tes. 2510. When these engines were delivered in the Colony did you see whether this specification had been carried out or not ? No, I did not. 2511. Did you make any minute examination or inspection of the engines? No, not before they com- menced running. 2512. Was the first intimation you got of the defects derived from the break-down ? No, the drivers were reporting them hot, and we could see that there was something wrong, there seemed to be some difliculty in getting them to run cool. 2513. Did you make any minute inspection into the matter ? Tes, we consulted with our drivers and improved the lubrication, and gave the engines every chance. 2513i. Well, what was your opinion, as an engineer, as to what was making these engines run hot ? I think the very rough and unsuitable stuff the axles were composed of. 2514. President.] Tou are now talking of the bogie axles? Tes. 2515. Mr. Hoyle.] Tou say it was rough, unsuitable stuff ; when the engine was elevated to see what was the matter with it did you make a minute examination of the journals ? I do not know that I myself saw any of these journals lifted after they had been running hot, but even if I had, I could not have told that. Even now I do not know that I am right as to what was the actual cause. I am only surmising it. 2516. Then why did you say it was the rough material ? Because I have seen a piece of the iron tested, and I have seen the material of which it was made. 2517. But that would not necessarily make the axle run hot? My opinion is that the material of the axle had everything to do with its running hot, and that it would not be possible for these axles to run cool at high rate of speed. 2518. Notwithstanding the lubrication ? Notwithstanding the lubrication. 2519. Professor Warren.] Tou mean that the dirt inside the axle— in the material of which it was made- worked out, and that is the reason why it worked hot ? Tes ; that was the cause. I know that the stuff may ooze out and destroy the effect of the lubrication. 2520. President.] And cut into the axle ? Tes. 2521. BAIiBWIIT IiOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE, OO 2521. Mr. Soyle.] I see by the correspondence that you cahled to America to the Company to make these ^ g g'a^-gj.^ engines lighter than the original Baltimore and Ohio ? Tes ; I know that that was done. ' .^ a ^^ * 2522. Well, if you wanted a lighter engine, why did you specify copper fire-boxes, which would actually gsApril 1892» make the engines heavier than the original boxes would? Well, we locomotive people of English bringing up, have not very much faith in steel fire-boxes. We know the copper fire-boxes, and we can trust them, and preferred-getting them, and we used our endeavours with the Commissioners to get them to pay the extra price that these boxes would entail. 2523. Did you know that you were making the fire-boxes heavier by putting in copper instead of steel ? Tes. 2524. Was that order sent — that cablegram ? Tes. Por my own part I would gladly sacrifice the weight to get the copper boxes. 2525. Tou must have had some reason for reducing the weight on the driving-wheel ? Tes. All loco- motive engineers are anxious to keep down the weight on the driving-wheel on account of the permanent way, the greater weight meaning greater wear and tear. We did not sacrifice the utility of the engine by the loss of adhesion, but took care to see that it was maintained. 2526. Will you say that the real reason of the axles running hot was not because there was too much weight on the bogie? To the best of my belief, the cause of the bogies running hot was the material com- posing the iron of which the axles were made. 2527. Now, I would ask you whether, with the surface you have, and the axle the size it is, and the weight on the bogie, would not that cause it to run hot, taking your Journal surfaces into consideration, do you not think that it was the extra weight on the bogie that caused the axles to run hot ? No ; I do not. 2528. Does it come within your duty to know what happened to these engines outside your district ? Tes, that is a chief part of my duty. 2529. Now when you had run these engines for a time, did you think that the wheel-base of the engine had anything to do with the axle and the boxes running hot ? No, I did not. The wheel-base of the passenger engine is, I think, 12 feet 6 inches. I have not the drawings before me, but I think that is so. 2530. Mr. Soyle^ I would like to be furnished with the drawings and the weights. 2531. Do you remember what brackets were broken in connection with the reversing-gear ? No ; I am not aware of anything that I would call a bracket. 2532. Were not the engines previous to the alterations to the fulcrum-pins fitted with a new brass bracket fixed on the boiler to carry the catch on the screw ? I think they have all been fitted with a catch. 2533. The whole of them ? Tes. 2534<. At what cost ? It hardly comes within my province to say what the cost would be, but I coUld give a guess. 2535. Then what do you think would be about the cost of each ? I think these catches were brass, and would cost about 8s. or 10s. each. 2536. Would they cost £1 each ? .1 say, I think they would cost about 8s. or 10s. each. 2537. Professor Warren.'] Mr. Thow will supply all that information. 2538. Mr. Hoyle^ Is it a fact that you have fitted these engines with new brass-boxes ? Tes. 2539. Does the Baldwin Company pay for them ? I think they do. 2540. Does the correspondence show that they have been deducted ? 2541. Mr. Brown.'] They have made reductions about £1,200 in all in the Baldwin Company. 2542. Mr. Soyle.] At Penrith an engine broke down with a loose coupled wheel. Is it a fact that you put a completely new set of wheels on that engine ? I am not quite sure about it breaking down, but as a matter of fact a loose wheel was discovered and the engine was sent to Sydney, and we took the quickest way of putting her into service again, and we considered the quickest way to be putting a new set of wheels under her, so that we could repair the broken one at our leisure, it is necessary to do this if we want to get an engine back to work at once. 2543. Could you not have taken out the right and left trailing-wheels and put in other trailing- wheels n their stead ? Tes, I could do that. 2544. Would it not be quicker ? Tes ; it would be much quicker. 2545. Then, why did you not do it ? I would be very sorry to do it ; it is necessary that the wheels should be all of the same diameter, and we could not take out one pair and put in a new pair without having different diameters in our set of wheels, one pair being new and the others worn even if the same size when new. 2546. Well, the result has been anyhow, that you have had to put in a completely new set of wheels ? If you mean by that, that one wheel breaking has caused the loss of six Avheels, it is not true. We have these six wheels on hand and can use them, and we did what T have said in order to save time. 2547. President.] And you will utilise the others ? Tes. By putting them in another engine. 2548. Mr. Brown.] That is not an unusual thing to do ? It is the proper thing to do, sir. 2549. Mr. Soyle.] What about the other wheels ; — you have the drivers and the leading-wheels loft ? And we have trailers also. 2550. But you will have to fix a new axle to them ? Tes. 2551. What will be the result; — can you bush the wheel, or ought a new axle to be made? I think we should have to put a new axle in the wheels. 2552. And that expense would be borne by the Baldwin Company ? Tes ; it ought to be, certainly ; but it is beyond my knowledge to state definitely whether it will be. 2553. Mr. Fehon.] We have £1,000 still in hand of the Baldwin Company's, and that will meet any little contingencies that may arise. 2554. Did you find any of the Baldwin Company's valve-brackets break ? I do not know of any part that we generally know by that name. 25-55. The rod that works the valve \_poiniing out the part indicated on a photoc/rapK] ? I have not known any of the rods you have pointed out to break. The valve-buckle, that goes inside the steam-chest has broken ; we have had several breaitages with them. 2556. Is that the usual thing in new engines ? No ; but it is a common thing among American engines. 2557. Have you mounted them with stronger buckles ? Tes. In this case it seemed wise to strengthen them. 2558. The former ones, then, seemed too slight ? I am not prepared to say that ; this was a class of buckle that I believe does good service in America. ' 2559 84. ^BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION— MINTJTBS Or EVIDENCE. H Staneer ^^^ ^°* ^^^^ *^® ^^^^ grades as we have here ? It is not a question of grade. 'J X ^ ' 2560. Professor Warren.] There are some grades in America worse than those we have here, but not on the 26April 1892 ■^^^t^^ore and Ohio line. ' ■ 2561. Mr. Hoyle.'] "What caused the axle-boxes to wear into the bosses of the wheel;— can you account for that ? I think the material of which the boxes were made had soniething to do with it ; a wrought- iron boss against a cast-iron box has not much chance. I think our road has something to do with it. In at least two classes of our English engine we have had similar trouble. 2562. Wearing as much in the same time ? I cannot say about time, but they wore very deeply. 2563. Have you seen the wheel wearing into any of the feed-cocks in the Consolidation engines ? Tes ; I have seen the leading wheel of the tenders, where it has been on the curve, cutting into the brass elbow of the feed-cock. 2564. Would not that necessitate the renewal of the feed-cock? I think, we have dealt with this by putting in a piece which slews the cock out of the way. 2565. Have there been any of these engines here, either passenger or Consolidation, with unsound frames ;— have you seen any with unsound frames ? Yes ; on one of them, a passenger engine. We took it to be unsound ; we took it to be a bad weld. 2566. Would that be serious? Well, we would have to stop the engine, and would have to go to some expense ; but it would not cost very much. I think we could adopt a cheap method with it, otherwise it might be expensive. 2567. I think you furnished five detail drawings to the Baldwin Company according to the correspond- ence; — was one of these drawings for the draw-hooks ? I believe a drawing was supplied for the draw- hooks ; but I had not anything personally to do with that. 2568. Mr. Brown.'] The Baldwin Engine Company admit that they made a mistake with regard to the draw-hooks, and they were ready to bear the cost of replacing them. 2569. Mr. Hoyle.] It has already been stated that some of the wheels of the tender axles have been loose ; — has that been the case in many of them ? Tes ; there have been a great number of them. 2570. What has been done in that case ? They have been taken out, and better and larger axles put in. 2571. Did you send to Victoria for any axles ? Not that I am aware of. 2572. Did you use any of your truck axles for the purpose ? I really do not know. When we got a tender with a loose wheel up the country we sent it to Sydney, and the works people dealt with it. .257.3. Professor Warren.] You, in conjunction with Mr. Neale and others, advised the Bailway Commis- sioners with regard to the purchase of these engines? Yes. 2574. I take it that you iix the weights to be haule(l, and the speeds to be run on the various inclines, as specified in a letter of the Secretary of the Railway Commissioners ? Yes. 2575. Will the engines do that work ? I think they are doing more than that. Of course I must guard against being misunderstood as to what the work for which they were intended was. What I took it to mean was that it was wished that what was then the customary load on the southern express, should be taken by one engine with assistance from Picton to Hilltop. I think that the weight of that train was 144 tons, and that, I think, led to its being inserted in a letter to the Baldwin Company, that the engines were to be capable of taking 144 tons over a grade of 1 in 40 at an average speed of 30 miles an hour for the whole journey. 2576. Well, I just wanted your opinion as an engineer. I wanted to know that you are satisfied that the engines have done the work required of them according to the specification. And I suppose that we shall be supplied with returns to show that they have actually done that work ? Yes. 2577. President.] Here is a letter from the Secretary to the Railway Commissioners, dated 22nd September, 1890 : — " Grovernment Railways of New South Wales, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 22nd September, 1890. G-entlemen, — I am directed by the Railway Commissioners to inform you that they accept the offer of the Baldwin Locomotive Works to supply twelve 10-wheeled express engines aud tenders similar to those recently supplied to the Baltimore and Ohio Railway, under a guarantee to haul a passenger train of seven cars up a grade of 116 feet per mile, and 17 miles long, at a speed of 25 miles per hour." That has not been modified in any way, has it ? Not that I am aware of. The engines are doing equal to that, and more than that. 2578. That is all that I wanted to know. Are the engines doing that? Yes. When I answered Professor Warren's question just now I spoke of a grade of 1 in 40. I remember that they were wanted to do a grade of 1 in 45, but that, as a matter of fact, they are really doing a grade of 1 in 40. 2579. At all events, they are fulfilling what was required of them in this letter ? Yes ; and a good deal more. 2580. Professor Warren.] Of course I take it that we shall have that proved ? 2581. Mr. Pehon.] Yes. 2582. Professor Warren.] It is a very important matter. 2583. President.] The letter from which I have quoted also says : — " It is proposed to haul with these engines trains weighing 152 gross tons (340,500 lb.) up long grades of 130 feet per mile. This would be the usual train, and we expect it to be hauled up this grade at about 22 miles per hour. Occasionallv the train would have an additional car, making the load without engine and tender, 178 tons or 394,240 lb. These loads include a full complement of passengers, mail, and baggage. The cars are all on trucks or bogies. The regular load up the 176-foot grades would be 120 gross tons (269,000 lb.) without engine or tender. These grades are free from very sharp curves, and therefore in .practice a greater propor- tionate load can be hauled than on the 130-foot grades. It is, therefore, expected that occasionally an extra car could be hauled, making the total weight of the train 144 gross tons (322,500 lb.) without engine or tender." What engine does that refer to ? The ten-wheeled passenger engine 2584. And it will do that? Yes. 2585. Professor Warren.] This letter gives the sharpest curves you have and the engines are supposed to do it without reference to curves or resistance. They can do the sharpest curves on our lines, because the letter describes our lines ? Yes. 2586. Will they do more than that ? It is expected of them that they will do that as an ordinary thing? 2587. In the letter it says thas the load must be 178 tons, but I take it that that has only reference "to test performances, and that 144 tons represents the usual loads that the engines will have to carry, as a matter of fact, will they carry 178 tons ? 2588. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 85 ioSS. Mr. Felion.] Yes ; we will produce the running sheets to prove it. C H Stanfief ' 2589. These things have been called into question a great deal. Have you made any test as to what the '^^^j^^J^ " engines will do with the loads on the 1 in 30 or 1 in 40, I do not care which you give me? Might I 26April,1892.. refer to the test ? 2590. President.'] Yes, certainly. 2591. Professor Warren^ You might hand in a copy, and I will consider it and ask questions upon it later on. 2592. Mr. Fehon.] The Commissioners are already pledged to do that. 2593. Professor Warren.'] Yes, I know they are ; and I wish I had the returns by me now, 2594. Witness.] This is a copy of mine. There is a copy with the report of the officers who made the test. This is not the one that the Commissioners intend to hand in. 2595. The Secretary to the Bailway Coinmissioners.] We may put Mr. Stauger in the box again after a while ? 2596. Professor Warren.] Well then, 1 will not press him now with regard to the returns. 2597. Mr. Brown (to witness).] You say you had no specifications before you at the time the engines were ordered — nothing to guide you but a copy of the Bailroad Gazette? That is all. 2598. And I suppose that you are aware that tlie manufacturers said that they could not guarantee the speed of the engines after the alterations suggested by yourselves ? I was not aware of that, but I was quite satisfied with what the engines did. 2599. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Fehon).] There is a stipulation to the effect that these engines are torunl,COO miles before the money is handed over to the Baldwin Company. Where did that stipulation emanate from, and how did it originate ? 2600. Mr. Fehon.] It was our proposal, but it was not adopted by the Company. 26U1. Mr. Broiun.] But here is the letter from the Company in which it is said " We have the honor to enclose invoice of the 10 per cent, due on the twelve locomotives." 2602. The Secretary to the Bailway Commissioners.] We hold 10 per cent, retention money, and that we keep until the engines have run 1,000 miles. 2603. Mr. Brown.] Exactly, I wanted to know where that came from ? 2604. The Secretary to the Bailway Commissioners.] It is a usual arrangement, and in this instance we made it with the agent of the Baldwin Company here. 2605. Mr. Brown!] I see there is nothing in the correspondence to show just where the arrangement emanated from, and I thought that it might lead up to some question in regard to the first specification ? 21)06. The Secretary to the Bailway Com niissiuners.] No ; it is a customary arrangement. 2(>07. Mr. Brown.] And you do not pay for the engines until they have run 1,OOU miles ? 2608. The Secretar-y to the Bailway Commissioners.] We do not pay the retention money till then. 26(19. Professor H^urren.] I suppose you have no more returns like those just referred to by Mr. 8tangor? 2610. The Secretary to the Baihvay Commissioners.] The Chief Commissioner for Eailways has a good deal of information that he is about to hand in. 2611. Professor Warren.] Well, if these returns do not represent the case it is no use going into Ihem, I have worked out what the engines ought to do, and I can see that at least two or three are not doing it. They might all be doing less than they ought to be doing. What I want is for you to seejjthat this is a very important matter, and that we shall have to decide with regard to the question, as to what the engines ought to do upon these returns. 2612. Witness.] You must remember that the reference in the returns from which I have been quoting is to coal waggons. 2613. 2'he Secretary to the Bailway Commissioners.] Yes, full particulars will be submitted to you. 2614. Professor. Warren.] What is the power necessary to haul ordinary coal waggons as compared to carriages ? I am not in a position to answer that question, but I think the 4-wheeled coal waggon stock must be more heavy to pull than bogie passenger stock. 26 i 5. Do you not think that a carriage run at 22 miles an hour would off"er much more resistance per unit of weight than a coal waggon ? Of course it offers a great deal more resistance to the air, but 1 do not think that there would be so much friction. ^616. But air resistance is a very important matter ? Yes ; but in going up these gradients we travel very slowly. 2617. I suppose you know all about the experiments of D. K. Clarke, Searle, and Wellington ? I know that the train resistance is gone into very thoroughly by Mr. Clarke and others. 2618. You do not know Wellington's work with regard to train resistance ? I have just looked through it, but I do not know it in the sense you mean. 2619. Mr. .Fehon.] I would like JMr. Stanger whilst he is giving his evidence to give the Commission some idea as to the difliculties we had before these engines arrived in carrying wool and stock on the western ready over which he is the locomotive superintendent ? Well, we were working under great difficulties, indeed' we had to keep the engines so constantly running that we could not do the necessary repairs, and as a consequence we had a great number of failures on the road. That blocked the traffic and made the difficulties even greater than they would otherwise have been. We were not able to wash out the engines, and instead of keeping, as we should have liked to have kept, one driver to each engine, men would come on duty and have to wait for an engine to come in before they could go out. On one occasion, and I think this was last year, men were waiting in the shed at Bathurst for the mail to arrive from Sydney, in order that they might take the engine to work a pick-up goods train from Bathurst to Orange. The mail driver reported to his foreman that the engine's boiler was so dirty that she could not go out again with the mail-train, but notwithstanding that they were obliged to run her first of all with the pick-up goods train and then with the mail train on the following day. Engine-men working on mail trains always consider themselves very hardly dealt with if their engine is taken from them at all ; but when it had to be done with the engine, in such a bad state as this engine was, it shows the great difficulty we had in working the traffic and the necessity for new engiiies. "620. You mean that previously your engine-power was short? Eoughly Speaking, the year before last we had barely half the engines we ought to have had, and the expenses in all directions were heaped up in consequence. In order to get the work done we had to keep men working overtime, and it was in conse- quence of that that the expenditure was so great. I remember one engine that had been standing in the shops for several weeks— I think the intention was to break it up — but our necessities were so great that in '>! eg BALDWIHT LOCOMOTIVES INQTTIET COMMISSION— MINUTES OP ETIDBNOE. H^taneer ^^ °^ ^^°^^ October of 1890 that engine and two or three others were brought out and put into working '/—Lv,^ ' *^® traffic— the less important traffic, of course— ballast and so on ; but by doing that work they released 26April,189a. °*^®' engines for the goods traffic. 2621. And at the time you ordered the Baldwin engines you had been disappointed in getting some English engines, I believe ? Tes. 2622. Mr. Soyle.l Is it not a fact that you have now more engines than you know what to do with ? No we have not. 2623. President^ Have you now more engines than you have use for ? "Well, we are now in the very slackest season. 2624. Tes, but I do not mean at this moment. Have you got more engines in the Service than there isneed-for?' No; I do not think that when all our engines are doing work we should have more than we desire. 2625. Mr. Soyle.] What induced you to order two Compound engines for experimental purposes when you were BO hard pushed that you 'did not know what to do for engines to work the ordinary traffic? Well, I do not see that because they were experimental engines we therefore lost the use of them. Although we did not understand these engines, and have not learned all about them, yet they are doing the same work as any other engines did before the Baldwin engines came out. They are doing as much work as our old Consolidation fengines. 2626. Professor Warren.] The question is how much they cost ? Well, the Commissioners wanted to see whether it would not be more economical to use them, aiid I think that if I were owning the railway I should feel myself justified in spending a few hundred pounds on a similar oxperiment. 2627. Mr. Fehon.'] Mr. Stanger could tell you, as a locomotive superintendent, of the great delay in the carriage of live stock and wool that occurred in the western district before the advent of the Baldwin engine, 2628. President.'] Well, I think he has already told us a good deal in that regard. Ton say that there were great delays, Mr. Stanger, before the arrival of the Baldwin engines ? Oh, it was a matter of daily complaint from the traffic branch that they could not get engines to work their traffic. Shortly after we put the Consolidation engines on the line, indeed, before we were quite satisfied to load them up to their full power there was a great block of wool at Dubbo — at one time as many as 300 trucks loaded with wool standing at Dubbo, simply waiting for engine-power to bring them on. One Saturday night I arrived at Dubbo and found 150 trucks waiting there. In order to get them away we used three or four of these large Consolidation engines, loading them on that occasion up to their full power, that is to say, with twenty-six wagons and brake-vans. They moved as much wool as seven of the small engines would have taken, aod it was from that date that we felt the great assistance that these large engines could be made to give in working the wool traffic of last year. 2629. Now about these repairs to the engines I am not talking about repairs to the bogie axles, I am not talking about the repairs to the draw-gear and reversing-gear — the draw-gear I believe was too light when the engines arrived — but leaving out of consideraiaon the draw-pear and the bogie axles and taking account of the other parts that required repairing, have there been more defects in them than you would expect to find in new engines before they got thoroughly into their work ? Not more than has been my experience with regard to other American engines. I am rather dubious about comparing them with English engines because we have found that there is not so much trouble with engines of English manufacture. 2630. But you have had American engines to deal with before coming in contact with the new Baldwin engine ? Tes. 2631. Have you had as much trouble with them ? Not if we are to set the bogie wheels aside. 2632. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you had as much trouble with the reversing-gear of the other American engines ? No ; I think not, though we had some trouble with the last lot. 2633. Had you more trouble with the last lot ? No. 2634. Have you had the same trouble with the brake-gear of the other American engines ? I think so. I think that the brake-gear of the first lot had to be remodelled entirely after we received them from the makers. 2635. Had you to make stronger valve buckles ? I do not know that we had to make stronger valve .buckles, but we had a great deal of trouble with the valves, and we had to substitute spiral springs for the springs supplied with the valves. 2636. Have you ever heard that they have cancelled trains at Penrith so that an extremely heavy load might be given to the Baldwin engines to take up the mountains ? I have not heard that in the sense in which I think you mean to put it. Of course, I know that the traffic people like to reduce the number of trainsi where it is possible. They prefer to run one heavy train drawn by a Baldwin engine to running two light ones drawn by other engines. 2637. That is to say that goods were detained at Prenrith in order to wait until a big load had been made up ? I think not. I think it is the other way about — that loads have been taken from Penrith earlier than would otherwise have been the case, simply because the Baldwin engines were capable of taking them. 2638. But have not trains been delayed at Penrith in order that big loads might be given to the Baldwin engines ? I do not know that they have, that is purely a traffic matter. 2639. Some trouble has been caused by the Compound engines. Tou say that they could only haul the load that the original Consolidation engine could haul ? That is as far as we have got with them yet. 2640. How old are the original Consolidation engines ? I do not know, they were here when I came I think they came in 1879 or 1880. ' 2641. Well, having drawn this comparison between the Compound engines and the old Consolidation engines I should like to ask you whether you think that the Compound engines when they are twelve years old will be hauling the loads that the original Consolidation engines are hauling now ? I am satis- • fled that they will be hauling 50 per cent. more. 2642. Mr. Brown.] Is that not merely a question of new tubes and cylinders ? Not new tubes, but I think we have new cylinders for them. 2643. Professor Warren.] Is it your opinion that the Baldwin passenger engines will cost more to keep in repair than an ordinary English engine would cost ? My experience is that American engines do cost more for repairs than English engines. 2644. And up to the present you think that the repairs to these particular engines, barring the axles have not been excessive ? No, not particularly. I think they will compare favourably with other engines of the, same type. . 2645 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 87 2645. But not witli English engines ? No. „ H^tan er' 2646. They are more costly to keep in repair than the English engines ? Yes. \..mL*^!^ ' 2647. President. 1 I suppose as a matter of fact that the English engines are better finished? Tes, that gg^ j^] jggg. is it. I fancy that the American people consider that it is cheaper in the long run to build less expensive *^ ' - engines, and then when they are used up to throw them away. 2648. Professor Warren.'] From this return you conclude that the engines are doing the work that was expected of them ? Tes. 2649. How do you arrive at that. I have just gone through three or four sets of your figures and I may tell you that I do not think they are doing ifche work that is expected of them. I may say that I know they are not if these returns iiire correct. I have rot spent many minutes over them, but you say you have made a certain test, and upon that test you have drawn a conclusion. What I want to know is by what method you have arrived at that conclusion ? We have arrived at the loads by weighing the waggons filled with coal and we took the speed by, the stop watch between the quarter-mile posts. 2650. You could not do better than that, but having done that how is it that you arrive at the conclusion that the engines are drawing 144 tons up 1 in 30 at a speed of 22 miles an hour ? I do not know that that was ever expected af them. 2651. Profesfor Warren.] That is what was specified in the letter of the Secretary to the Eailway Com- missioners ; — "It is proposed to haul with this engine trains weighing 152 gross tons (340,500 lb.) up long grades of 130 feet per mile. This -would be the usual train, and we expect it to be hauled up this grade at about 22 miles per hour. Occasionally the train would have an additional car, making the load without engine and tender 178 tons or about 394,240 lb. These loads include a full complement of passengers, mail, and baggage. The cars are all on trucks or bogies. The regular load up the 176-foot grades would be 120 gross tons (269,000 lb.) without engine Or tender. These grades are free from very sharp curves, and, therefore, in practice a greater proportionate load can be hauled than on the 130-foot grades. It is therefore expected that occasionally an extra car could be hauled, making the total weight of the train 144 gross tons (322,500 lb.) without engine or tender." Upon that I shall base my decision as to whether they are doing or are not doing the work expected of them. I will ask Mr. Stanger whether he has gone into this question and whether these tests show that the engines are doing their work which it was intended they would have to do when this letter was written ? 2652. Mr. Brown.] But you must remember that at that time they asked thp company to give them a guarantee that the engines would do certain work, and that the company refused to give them that guarantee, and that after that refusal the Eailway Commissioners decided to take the engines. 2653. Professor Warren.] I do not think that that affects the question. The lette* from which I have quoted clearly shows what the engines were required to perform. 2634. Secretary to the Railway Commissioners.] We ordered a certain class ofenginetodo a certain work. 2655. Professor' Warren.] Exactly, and Mr. Stanger says that it will do the work, and indeed that it has been shown to do more than the work, and these returns are placed before me to prove that, and it iavery unfortunate if they prove the contrary. 2656. Mr. Stanger.] I think it only fair that I should be allowed to state that I did not hand in these returns as a piece of evidence, I was only refreshing my memory with them, and handed them to Professor Warren because I concluded that he wished to see them. It should be remembered that these engines are not always wanted to pull trains of 144 tons up the Picton bank with a gradient of 1 in 30. 2657. Mr. Prown.] The Baldwin Company offered you an engine which they were prepared to guarantee, but you asked them for something else, and when they sent the engines to you, whilst they declined to guarantee them they said they would probably do more than what you asked them to guarantee them to do. 2658. Professor Warren.] The Baldwin Company say that these engines will haul a certain load, but they will not guarantee the speed. Supposing one engine hauls 200 tons at the rate of 5 miles an hour, and another engine hauls 200 tons at the rate of 10 miles an hour, it does double as much work as the other one. 2659. Mr. JPehon.] That point will be cleared up when we call our evidence. 2660. Secretary to the Railway Uommissioners.] We have not commenced our case yet. These are all Mr. Hoyle's witnesses. 2661. Professor Warren.] I take it that Mr. Stanger says just what he knows in either case, whether he is speaking for the Commissioners or for Mr. Hoyle. 2662. Mr. Fehon.] We shall have to call ■ him again, and will, in the meantime, obtain the necessary returns, and lay them before the Commission. 2663. President.] It does not matter by whom a witness is called, especially such a witness as Mr. Stanger. It does not matter whether he is called by the Railway Commissioners or not. The only circumstances under which it could matter would be in a Court where the question of the right to cross- examine, or something of that kind might crop up. Mr. Stanger will speak the truth vmoever he is called, by. 2664. Mr. JSoyle.] This is an order issued by the Chief Mechanical Engineer for the guidance of drivers and firemen. It says " Drivers and firemen who work the new Baldwin engines of both kinds are hereby instructed that on no account must they allow the level of water to get below half a gauge-glass on the levels, or when ascending grades, particularly on grades of 1 in 40 aiid 1 in 30 — indeed on these engines they should have more than half a gauge-glass of water — and when descending grades of any kind they must take care that the water shall always be seen in the gauge-glass. Eecent failures of the Consolida- tion boilers are attributed to shortness of water" ? We have had several cases of leaking tubes. 2665. But is that caused by the gauge-glass not being in the proper place ? I have not made the neces- sary measurements. All I can say is that since the order was issued we have had no trouble. 2666. Then under the circumstances of a driver not attending to his gauge-glass trouble did arise, and it was necessary to issue this order to drivers on that point ? As these engines were new to the men, and larger than anything they had handled before, it was thought necessary to issue these instructions in order to warn them to keep up the necessary amount of water. I do not think there is anything excessive in the quantity specified. 2667. But you see the latter part of the order states that failures of the Consolidation boiler had occurred, and that they were attributable to shortness of water. You have a rule that on certain gradients a driver should have more than half a gauge-glass of water, and that when descending grades of any kind he must take care that the water can always be seen in his gauge-glass ? Under the circumstances under which these engines were being worked, it was found necessary to keep up the supply of water in the gauge- glasa. It was a large machine, and as such required a plentiful supply of water. 2668. 88' BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRY COIIAIISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCIi;. Ml-. 2668. So that it appears that something must have gone wrong with the water in these boilers, or that it ' ■C. H. Stangei-. ^^gyj^ ^^^^ ^^^^ unnecessary to issue special instructions about them ? I do not know anything in that .2fi'7rW9 order that implied that the gauge-glass is not in its proper place. There is not more water specifaed in ^ • • the order that you have read than it is necessary to carry in the best locomotive ever built. 2669. Professor Warren (to Witness).] When you come into the box again I shall inquire turther into the subject connected with those returns. I do not think it is fair to press the matter turther now. Mr. Thomas Ehodes Pirth, being sworn, said :— Mr. 2670. President! What are vou, Mr. Eirth? Chief Assistant Engineer in the Eailway Construction T.R. Firth. Branch ^ n/T^'-r'T^n 2671. Where are you stationed ? In Sydney. ^tjAprii, laa^. ggyg. Are you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? Yes. . 2673. How long have you been in the Eailway Service of this Colony ? Since 1860 ; in the service ot the Q-overnment since 1863.' ■ -ii, t> -i 2674. Well I want to know how long you have been in the Eailway Service ? I have been in the Kail way Service since 1860, and was connected with railway work for about seven years before I came here. 2675. Mr. Soyle.] Had you charge of the South Coast Line when it was being constructed i As tar as Clifton — from Eveleigh to Clifton. 2676. Did you see when the structures were being built along that line that they were to the standard gauge ? Tes. 2677. And were they to the standard gauge ? Tes, of course they were. 2678. Tou have no doubt whatever about that ? Not the slightest. , _ 2679. Do you know whether any alteration was made to the Arncliife platform by the Commissioners ? Tes, I do. 2680. Have you measured that platform ? Tes, 2681. Was it to gauge before these alterations were made ? Tes. 2fj82. Are you sure of that ? Tes, I am sure of it. 2683. I want you to be very particular on that point. Tou are absolutely sure that it was to gauge ? I have already said so. 2684. Was the platform at Otford to gauge ? Tes, it was erected to gauge. 2685. Have you any sauge to guide you in the structures overhead in the projection of the veran. Mr. Brown.] I thought that the evidence went to show that the draw-gear of these engines had been replaced by new draw-gear. 3217. President.] I am sorry if I have mislead you, Mr. Hoyle, I can only comply with the charges contained in our Commission, namely :, that the Baldwin engines are defective, are unsuitable to the permanent-way, and do not do the work they were expected to do. It might be unsafe, to have so many waggons attached to these engines, but we have not anything to do with that. 3218. Mr. Soyle.] It endangers the lives and property of people. 3219. President.] Well, I cannot go generally into the matter, I can only go by the terms of the Commission. I cannot go beyond the draw-gear attached to these engines. I think it is what my colleagues have also thought, that we had only to do with the draw-gear attached to the engines, not with that attached to the waggons. 3220. Professor Warren.] That is clearly in my mind ; I thought that Mr. Hoyle referred to the draw- gear on the engine itself. 3221. Mr. Brown.] We are bound to presume that the draw-gear generally is sufficiently strong for its work, and if it is not, well, the Eailway Commissioners will have to pay for it. 3222. Mr. Hoyle.] When I made a charge against the engines, speaking in Parliament, I said that it was the draw-gear on the goods vehicles more than anything else that I feared when these engines were being used, as the draw-hook of the engine itself, there is no doubt that it is very strong, but I certainly had the draw-gear on the goods vehicles in view at the time I made these charges. It is a danger, and it was the great load that these engines had to draw that directed my attention to the draw-gear. 3223. President.] If you could show that this was a tremendous load, and that there was ground for this supposition that perhaps might be evidence of neglect — ^but I cannot go outside the terms of the Com- mission — what we have to try is whether these engines are defective or unsuitable to the permanent way, or are not doing the work they were expected to do. If the Commissioners put a load behind the Baldwin engines which would inherently be too much, that would be a mal-administration outside the terms of this Commission. This ruling must be looked upon as final. 3224. Mr. Fehon.] May I read from the charges? 3225. President.] I do not think it necessary — I have decided against Mr. Hoyle. 3226. Mr. Fehon.] I was going to point out a most apparent inconsistency. 3227. President.] I do not think it is necessary ; I am not responsible for the Commission, and I did not know what the terms of it were until I unfortunately got it. The terms of the Commission are what I have intimated, and we must keep within them. Otherwise we might go into an irregulai*, wide, and expansive enquiry, and anything whatever might be raked up. I did not know anything about the terms of this Commission until I got it at Hay — very much to my sorrow. 3228. Mr. Hoyle.] It has been said here in evidence that there would be little or no danger, or there might be no danger, in a bogie-axle breaking whilst the train was going at a speed of from 30 to 35 miles an hour ; — do you think, as an engineer, from your experience on English and American engines, that it is not a dangerous thing for a bogie-axle to break ? Well, of all railway accidents conceivable, the most to be dreaded is a broken axle, a broken rail, or tire — a bogie-axle above all, because it is the leading axle to guide the engine, I would consider nothing worse than a breaking of a leading or bogie-axle. The two greatest accidents in England, I believe, were in one case a leading axle breaking, and in the other a crank-axle breaking. 3229. Professor Warren.] Do you consider it a very serious thing ? Tes, I do indeed. Tou cannot guard too much against wheels, axles, tires, and draw-gear breaking. 3230. Is that the reason why you stated that axles should have the very best of material in them ? Yes ; wheels, tires, axles, and draw-gear, should have good material in them. They cannot be examined too often, or looked after too much. 3231. Mr. Hoyle.] Could you explain anything you know about axle accidents ? There have been a good many accidents of that kind in England. Speed has been very high, and sometimes they break without warning ; sometimes a little crack will appear, and it may "not be detected, and then an accident may be caused. 3232. President.] You need not labour to show us, Mr. Midelton, that it is a serious thing for an axle to break — ^for my own part I think it is a most serious thing. 3233. Professor Warren.] So do I. 3234. Mr. Hoyle.] It has been sworn here that it is not a dangerous thing. 3235. BAIDWm lOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINTTTES OP EVIDENCE. 105 3235. President.'] "Well, people may come and swear that to me, but I do not agree with them, that is all, Mr. I use my common sense. T. Midelton. 3236. Mr. B.oyle.'] Can you state any particular case where an accident occurred in England or America, Cr'*"'rr^„ through a broken axle ? I think I remember the Shipton accident, on the Great Western line, in 1875 ; ^^' ^'*'^''- there were about forty-five killed, and as many more injured. I forget whether that was an axle or a tire, perhaps Professor "Warren will remember ? 3237. Professor Warren.] Tes, I think it was a tire. 3238. Mr. Soyle.] Do you remember any other ? The Pemstone accident, on the Manchester and Shef- field railway, occurred through a broken crank-axle. A locomotive superintendent was killed in that accident. There was not a more careful man in England than he. 3239. Professor Warren^ Do you know of any accident occurring through the breaking of the leading axle wheel ? Tes, there was one on the Great "Western line ; if you look through the railway papers you wUl find that a good many accidents have occurred through that cause. We have had a good many cases of our own. For example, I think at Karrandera, I think, there was an accident caused through a broken axle. 3240. And Petersham ? Yes, on the Petersham viaduct, some time ago. They do not always cause loss of life ; sometimes they do. I always give great attention, in my Department, to the condition of the wheels and axles, and draw gear. 3241. Mr. Fehon.] The accident was caused through a truck axle at Petersham, and that has no reference whatever to the enguies. (Witness) I was asked about axles generally, and the breaking of an axle is just as serious, no matter where it may be, or an engine or car. 3242. Professor Warr^i.] But if on the leading wheel it is worse than all ? Tes, it may be worse than all, seeing that it is the leading wheel of the train, and governs the whole thing. "> 3243. It is the pilot-wheel ? Yes. 3244. Mr. Soyle.] These tires are shrunk on in the ordinary way, and held with a set screw ? ■\V"hich tires? 3245. I am referring to the tires on the Baldwin engines ; I think they are fastened in this way, are they not ? Yes, I think they are. 3246. Here is a template of a tire as fastened to a wheel. That you claim as yours, and you say that it has been the standard ? Yes, that is mine, and it has been the standard since 1883. 3247. I want to know whether you consider that a perfectly safe fastener? It is the best that I know of. 3248. That one ? The one nearest to me. 3249. Yes, this one ? The other is one that Sir Henry Tyler, the late Chief Inspector of the Board of Trade, condemned as a barbarous system. Here is the rim of the wheel. This is the section of the tire when it is put on the wheel. It is heated and put on to the wheel like that, and it shrinks as it cools, and gets quite tight on the rim of the wheel. If you do no more than that to secure it there is nothing but the shrinkage of the tire that holds the tire to the wheel, and you can readily see that if it gets loose it will necessarily fly off. A hole is drilled into the tire, and this screw is put into it. That is done as a safeguard, to prevent the tiro/flying ofE if it gets slack, but as a matter of fact it will cqme off if the screw breaks. That is how the tires on the Baldwin engines are fastened. Now, with regard to the way in which I maintain that the tires should be secured. Here is the rim of the wheel again. That is a kind of dovetail. It hooks into the tire there. This is a separate ring that goes right round the wheel and hooks into that section of the rim and round the tire. 3250. Is that Mansell's fastening? It is a modification that I brought about from Mansell's. The other system allows the tire to turn round on a wheel if it works loose, but this system wiU not allow it to go round the wheel. This rivet being through the wheel and through the tire prevents the tire turning on the wheel in case it gets slack. It also prevents the tire flying off the wheel, even though it were to break in a dozen pieces. Another advantage is, the tires can be used longer. 3251. Mr. Brown.] Which is the barbarous one ? This [^pointing to one of the models before him] is the barbarous one ; I am saying Sir Henry Tyler, the late Chief Inspector of the Board of Trade, called that a barbarous one, and I agree with hini. It is not merely I who says so. 3252. And the other system is the one by which the tires are fastened on to your engines, whilst this, which has been described as being the " barbarous " system, is the way in which the tires are fastened on to the wheels, of the Baldwin engines ? The former is the way in which the tires are fastened to the wheels of my engines, but the other is the way in which the tires are fastened on all the wheels of all the other engines in this Colony. 3253. Professor Warren.] The system that you have adopted in regard to your own engine is Mansell's, is it not ? It is a modification of Mansell's, no doubt, but it is really my own, and I could have obtained a patent for it years ago if I had liked, I dare say. 3254. President.] But I want you to tell us about the Baldwin engines ; — how are the tires fastened on to the wheels of the Baldwin engines ? Well, all the engines in the Department, excepting the ten engines that I obtained from Dubs and Co. from my own designs, are fastened in the manner that Captain Tyler 20 years ago described as barbarous. 3255. Mr. Hoyle^ Whilst you were in the Department was that modification of the Mansell fastening adopted as a standard? "Tes; it was. Ever after 1882 all carriage and waggon wheels were made on that principle whilst I was in authority. The engine wheels have not been made on that pattern since, but the carriage and waggon wheels have. Previous- to 1882 we had some wheels under " Ashbury" carriages fastened with Mansell's fasteners, but they were taken off, and I think are lying at Eveleigh workshops now. They were, however, some little time ago. 3256. President.] Do you say that the tires that are not put on by that particular method are defective? I do, most emphatically. I say that the evidence before the Department after my ten engines were ordered, with a fastening that will not allow a broken tire to come off even if it breaks, you would conclude that the Commissioners would have fitted later engines in that way, and I am very much surprised that it has not been done. 3257. Mr. Brown.] Then, inasmuch as the others are not fastened in that way, you say that they are defective ? I do. 3258. And all the Baldwin engines being fastened like the rest of them, you say they are defective also in that respect ? Yes ; I may say that the first ten engines from the Baldwin works were designed like this, because I had no drawings and specifications at the time, but we took care to keep them off the Melbourne express trains. 3259. 6—0 106 BAIDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQriBY COMMISSION — MINOTES OF ETIDENCE. J^"^-,. 3259. Mr. Rotjle.] Have you had any experience, or had you any experience whilst you Were in the i.Midelton. service, of tires coming loose? Tes I had, and breaking too. There is an abundance of papers in 3 '^^1"^2 *^^ Department on that subject. I remember distinctly that, ten years ago, in 1882, the subject was ^^' ' taken up by the Department and thoroughly discussed. 3260. Mr. Fehon.'] I would like a member of the Commission to ask if this evidence refers to engines or to waggons ? It refers to engines, waggons, carriages, and every class of rolling stock we have in the service. 3261. President.'] Theu according to you, not only are the Baldwin engines defective', but every vehicle in the service, excepting the ten engines that you imported from your own designs, is defective also? No ; not every vehicle— every engine. On the contrary, every tire on waggons and carriages has been fitted with the approved form of f ^.stening, but the engine's tires have not, and therefore, what I say is, that all the engines except my ten are defective in that respect. 3262. Then according to you, the Baldwin and all other engines in the Colony, except your ten, have not got the tires properly fastened on ? According to the experience of CaptaiU Tyler, aud my own and others, I consider they have not ; and to prove that, the Americans are adopting _ the fastenings that I have just been describing as the better one on their engines. I can show you drawings of a tire fastening used whelre, I believe, Mr. Ehodes' brother is the chief mechanical engineer, on which road, I think, they are adopting the Mansell fasteners or a modification of it. 3263. Mr. Hoyle.'] Do you know anything about the Baltimore and Ohio Company's engines ? Well, I have read about them a good deal. 3264. Do you know whether the engines of which this last twelve are a copy, to a certain extent modified, are running on a 60-lb., 65-lb., or 70-lb. rail ? I can only say that I have read — ? 3265. President.'] How can he say what the rails are if he has only read statements regarding them in a book or paper. Ton can read the extract from the paper to us, Mr. Hoyle, if you like, and it will be just as valuable as anything that Mr. Midelton can say, unless he has actually seen the rails himself. A man can only speak in evidence of what he knows and not of what he merely reads. Of course you can get his experience if that is what you want. Tou can ask him whether such and such things are recognised as the proper things to be done, but you cannot ask him to retail statements that he has got from print. 3266. TVitness.] It has been stated here in evidence before the Commission that the rails on the Baltimore and Ohio Hailroad weigh 67 lb. to the yard, and I can show you a drawing of an 85 lb. steel rail on the same road — their standard 3267. President] If such a statement has been made, all I can say is that I did not notice it at the time, and do not remember it now. If I notice it when I come to read over the evidence afterwards it will then be my duty to tell the other members of the Commission that it is not evidence in any way what- ever, and that they must dismiss it from their minds. 3268. To Mr. Soyle.] Tou could get the effect of Mr. Midelton's answer in this way if you like. Tou can say to him what rail is safe for an engine of a certain weight to run upon. He may have obtained his information by reading even in that case, but he is asked his opinion, and gives you the result of his reading as his own opinion, and by his opinion he is bound, but we cannot allow him to state what the weight of these rails is unless he has seen them himself. 3269. Witness.] I believe the Baltimore and Ohio engines are running on 85 lb. rails, but I may say that I have heard that some of them run on 67-lb. rails. 3270. President.] That is really worse than what I have just been complaining about. "We cannot possibly admit these statements. 3271. TVitness.] Well, it is my business to take an interest in these things, and I consequently read a great deal about them. 3272. President.] Exactly, we know that it is your business to take an interest in these matters, and of course you will read a great deal about them, but it is just as if a doctor were in the witness box. He may say that so and so are symptoms of a certain disease, but he cannot go on and say I have read such and such a thing, nor can you state in evidence what you have just been doing. Tou can say that it is not safe to run a Baldwin engine with such and such a weight on the leading wheels, or with such and such weighting on the driving wheels over a 71-lb. steel rail or a 75-lb. iron rail, but you cannot say that certain rails are a certain weight merely because you have read that they are. In the former case you may be giving the result of your reading, but it is you opinion about it after all. 3273. Mr. Hoyle.] I have never seen England, but I know it exists. 3274. President."] It may be so, Mr. Hoyle, but I am only talking about what is evidence here. We may all hear about a murder in England, we may read about it in the paper, we may have no doubt what- ever that the murder has taken place, but if you have to prove it that is quite another matter. 3275. Mr. Hoyle (to witness).] We were speaking about the tire of wheels just now. I want to ask you whether there is greater pressure upon a wheel after the tire has turned down to its utmost limit, and whether that wheel is as safe as when the tire is new. I am speaking of a tire fastened in the way in which the tires of the wheels on the Baldwio engines are fastened ? When a tire wears thin of course it is weaker, when you get low enough you come to the end of this bolt unless it is put on one side, and near the tire flange. That cannot happen in the case of my tire, my rivet is horizontal ; this stud is vertical. 3276. What I want to know is whether the wheel would be safer with a new tire than it would be with a tire turned down to its utmost limit, fastened as these Baldwin tires are fastened ? Certainly it would be safer with a new tire than with a tire half worn. 3277. 1 am asking you that because we are going to call you again after you have examined the engines, and yoli wiU have to answer some questions about the wheels then. It has been stated in evidence before the Commission that the reason why some of the bogey axles broke, was in consequence of heating, and that the heating was caused through grit working out of bad parts of the iron. I wish to ask you whether you consider that heating would be caused in that, way ? If heating was caused in that way, there must have been laminations in the iron before the axles were used in the first instance. I do not think the axles would give off dirt from the interior of the iron unless there was some open fracture in the iron itself through which the dirt could work out. 3278. Professor Warren.] And if that were so, it would demonstrate that the axles were badly made would it not ? Tes ; badly forged I should think. 3279. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INCjriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 107 3279. Exceptionally badly ? Tes ; when I was in the Department, if ever I saw an axle with the Mr. slightest crack in it I made a practice oi: putting it in the testing machine at once. ^- ^idelton. 3280. Mr. Royle.'] And the lamination, which you say must have been noticeable in the first instance if oCT'^l^o grit was going to work out of the iron, might have been discovered as soon as the axle-box was taken off ? ** ^*^' ■'■^'*^- If a full examination had been made it might have been discovered, and should have been properly recorded at the time. 3281. Professor Warren.] So that if it has been stated in evidence that the heating of the axles was caused from dirt working out of the iron itself, you would say that the flaw could have been seen before the axle was used ? Tes ; although, as a matter of fact, it might possibly have been developed afterwards. "What I mean is this. Tou might examine an axle before it is used and see no sign of lamination. That axle might be worked for a while, and laminations appear ; and those laminations, of course, you could not see without taking the axle-box off to look for them. However, I think marks of bad forging would have been observable in the first instance before the axle had been used at all, and I should be extremely surprised to hear that the cracks had Appeared afterwards. 3282. Mr. Brown.} Tou think that any fracture could have been detected before the engines had been put to any use ? f es ; I think it might have been detected if there was a scale working out of the iron. 3283. President.'] Tou mean to say that dirt could not work out of the axle without the place from which it was working out being discoverable ? Tes. 3284. Mr. Hoi/Ie.] We have evidence to show that some of these engines were lifted a number of times ; and you think that if there was any slag working out of the iron it could have been discovered in the course of one of these examinations ? I should have hoped that if anything was found to be working out of any of the axles any officer under me would have taken the axle ofl: and subjected it to a careful examination before he allowed it to go out again. 3285. Professor Warren.] I want you to answer Mr. Hoyle's question. 3286. Mr. Hoyle.] "We have had evidence to show that one of these engines was lifted a number of times. I want to know now whether if slag was working out of any part of the axle it could have been discovered when the engine was lifted, if the axles had been examined upon these occasions ? Tes ; there would have been evidence when the axle heated that there was something wrong, and if slag was in the centre of the axle when the engine was lifted there would have been evidence of its coming out. For instance, if the lamination had not been detected when the axle was new, and in the meantime heating had developed, then I should certainly have looked for the crack that I had failed in the first place to find. If I failed a second time to find them I should perhaps decide to turn it down afresh ; it would be a matter to be determined purely by good judgment, careful examination, and experience. 3287. "Well then if no laminations— no cracks were discovered — and the journal was perfectly clean, would there not be some other cause for the axle running hot ? "Well, it might be over-loaded. If an axle is overloaded you expect it to run hot whether that one was overloaded or not I cannot say. If it was badly lubricated it would have been liable to run hot also. Steel axles will run hot if they are overloaded, or if dirt gets into the box, or if there is neglect in oiling or anything of that kind, just the same as any other kind of axles. 3288. Professor Warren.] If the area of the brasses in which the axle revolves was insufficient, that would make it run hot, would it not ? "What do you mean by insufficient ? — give me as an example an axle of any diameter, of 5 inches say. 3289. Tes, I want to know if the pressure on this brass is excessive — if it is more than you consider the pressure on such brass should be, would not that be the cause of its running hot ? Oh, yes, undue pressure would make it run hot. 3290. "What pressure do you allow ? 3 tons for a 5-ineh axle, and I give one quarter of the circumference for bearings. A 5-inch axle ought to carry 4 tons with safety, with a 3'0 wheel. 3291. Mr. Hoyle.] "Would the manner in which the bogey is hung have anything to do with the axles running hot ? "Well it would tend that way on a curve. If the engine flies away at a tangent, which it would do, the weight would be greater on one side than on the other and the bosses would come in contact with the axle-boxes, in which case the friction must be greater on one side than upon the other, but that ought not to cause trouble, because the engines are made to run on curves of course. 3292. Mr. Fehon.] It has been admitted that the axles did run hot, and that they have been removed and replaced with steel ones. 3293. President^ Tes ; the axles that came here in the first instance were very bad axles, there is no doubt about that. 3294. Witness.] I should like to see these axles, if for scientific purposes only. 3295. President.] I do not know that it is material, because it is admitted on all hands that they did run hot. "Whatever was the cause of it, whether it was because foreign matter worked out of the axles, or whatever the cause was, it is admitted that they were bad axles. It might be very interesting and instructive to you from a scientific point of view to examine them, but I fail to see what it has to do with the inquiry. 3296. Witness.] As a matter of science it is one that is highly important to me. I have taken more trouble with axles than any other man in the country, and tvhilst I am inspecting the engines in order to give an opinion on their other parts, if I could examine the axles I might be able to express an opinion on them also. 3297. President.] "Well, if they have got any of them in their possession now I don't suppose the Eailway Commissioners will object to your seeing them. I do not know whether we have anything to do with tlie question as to whether the flaws should have been discovered when first they came here. There is no doubt that they were defective, and the question for us to determine is wkether the new axles with which they have been j'eplaced are perfect or sufiiciently perfect to be run with safety. I do not wish to object to your desire to see the axles, and if you wish to see them in the interests of science I have no doubt the Commissioners will allow you to do so. 3298. Professor Warren.] It does not afliect the inquiry — that is the only thing. 3299. President.] No, it does not afiect the inquiry at all. 3380. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you consider, Mr. Midelton, that it is in any way dangerous for a trailing wheel on an engine to work loose ? If it is allowed to go too far. It is not creditable for such a thing to occur in regard to any engine, and, as far as my experience goes, it is a very rare occurrence. They should be watched very closely immediately upon that taking place. If a defect of that kin,d is neglected you can only expect something wrong in the end. 3301. 108 BALBWm LOCOMOTIVES INCjriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. 3301. Coming back to the load on the train— you know what our large brake-vans are? The passenger T. Midelton. brake-vans do you mean, or the goods ? '.C'-^t^ -3802. "What is known as our double brake-vans ? I know th6 new lavatory brake-vans, d May, 1892. 33Q3_ You know our heaviest brake-vans? Yes. ^ , ,, • 3304. Do you consider that if the draw-hook— of course I have to keep to the draw-hooks on the engmes now— do you consider that if the draw-hook on one of these Baldwin engines broke there would be sufficient brake power on the van to hold a train on I in 40— a train weighing 160 tons ? Well, it would have to be caught the instant the hook broke in order to save it. 3305. What did you say about the incline ? 3306. If it was going up a bank of 1 in 40, 1 did not say at any particular speed, but I will now say at 12 miles an hour ? Well, then, if a Baldwin engine or any other engine, was hauling a tram up a bank of 1 in 40 at 12 miles an hour and a hook broke there would have to be reversal of the motion immediately. If you applied the brake the moment the gear broke it might arrest the train's return, but I do not think it would if the wheels were allowed to revolve once or twice. 3307. Mr. Fehon.'] I must object to this line of examination. It has been already stated, and I beg to point out once again, that every one of our carriages is fitted with an air-tight brake. 3308. Mr. Hoyle.^ I am perfectly well aware of that ; but I will now ask Mr. Mideilton whether if the draw gear on a goods train not fitted with automatic brakes was to snap as the train was going up an incline of 1 in 40 at the rate of 12 miles an hour there would be sufficient power on the Tirake-van to prevent it slipping down ? Well, if the guard caught it the very moment that the draw hooks snapped he might succeed. 3309. President.'] Tou mean if he caught it, as we used to say at school, " on the first hop," he might ■prevent the train slipping down the bank again? Yes, if he caught it on the first hop he might do it. 3310. Professor Warren.] But you would not like to be in the van ? I would not. 3311. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you know if compound locomotive engines area new idea? They are not a new idea in any sense, but they are coming into use more now than a few years ago. 3312. Mr. Brown.] The Commissioners have admitted that they only brought out the compound engines as an experiment ? The whole lot are experimental engines, as the correspondence indicates. 3313. Which whole lot do you mean ? The whole of the Baldwin engines ; the Commissioners say so I believe. 3314. President?^ No, I believe not. As far as I understand it they got these Baldwin engines because they had been disappointed in some English engines which they had ordered, and having been disappointed in regard to the English engines, in order to keep the traffic going during the approaching wool season as the most expeditious and generally the best thing they could do they sent to America for these Baldwin engines. That is their statement, and then in addition to the Baldwin engines they ordered two compound engines for experimental purposes ? I understood that the twelve passenger locomotives were said to be imported for running the Southern express and Northern mail passenger trains, and that to that extent they were experimental engines. At the time I asked that my engines should be tested for that purpose but they were not tested which I think was unfair. 3315. Mr. Soyle.] I understood that the compound engines were a new kind of engine, but now I gather that they were tried in England as long as twenty -five years ago ? 3316. Professor Warren.] Yes. , 3317. Mr. Pehon.] They are running in England and America very successfully to day. 3318. Professor Warren^ And you knew that they would be of use to you here whether they did all that it was said they would do or not. 3319. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 3320. Mr. Hoyle (to witness).] You know that there has been a number of failures in the reversing gear and some failures in the break gear. Eulcrum pins have broken, back pins have broken, and rods have broken in connection with the reversing gear. Do you consider, as an engineer, that so many of these parts should have failed, and that there should have been so much trouble with the engines as there appears to have been, considering the short time they have been running ? I do not know what there has been in the way of breakages. 3321. Mr. Broum.] Mr. Midelton can only tell from what he has seen in the newspapers. If you would put before him the return of breakages that the Commissioners have promised to supply he would no doubt be able to answer your question. You could then get him as an expert to say whether these repairs were fair or unfair considering the age of the engines. 3322. Mr. Fehon.] I think we shall be able to give you the returns with regard to the breakages to-morrow. It has taken some time to prepare them. 3323. Mr. Soyle.] We find from evidence here that the boss of the wheels of these engines has worked considerably into the axle-box ? Yes. 3324. Do you think that that ought to have been the case so soon after these engines had begun to run ? I do not. If the box and the wheel was properly proportioned I should expect them to run at least nine months before there was sign of such a serious thing as that happening. 3325. Do you think it would be a serious defect in these engines then, or a defect in the design or in the material, for a piece of a wheel to work into the axle-box (say) three-eighths of an inch ? In nine months. 3326. I think they have been running about six months ? If they have been running on the mountain lines you would rather expect the wearing of the box to a large extent ; but if I were running them, and they were working into the box unduly^ I should feel annoyed with myself that I had not had them properly designed, or that the work had not been according to the design. 3327. Mr. Fehon.] Again I submit that there was no design or specification in the question. There was not time to submit a design for these engines ; they were ordered by cablegram, so that it does not affect the matter at all. 3328. Witness.] I may remark that these engines were ordered in a hurry by cablegram, as Mr. Fehon has just described, but engines could have been obtained more expeditiously, and I say this to show that I am not in any way unfriendly to the Commissioners. 3329. President.] That does not matter, Mr. Midelton. It did not affect our view of the question in the least. We have quite plenty to inquire into as it is, 3330. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OE ETIDENCE. 109 3330. Mt. Soyle (to Witness).] We find that tte reversing gear has broken, and that it has been necessary Mr. to put new brass brackets on to carry the screw. Do you think now that the reversing gear should have '^- ^idelton. given out so soon as it has after these engines have been running ? I do not but I might qualify that „ 'C! TT^ by sajring that screw-reversing gear was specified in these engines, and that it is customary for the *^' Baldwin Company to put a lever instead of a screw ; but as the screw was specified I think it would have been the proper thing to have sent a drawing of what was required ; however, if the Baldwin Company has put reversing gear into the engines that I consider defective, I shall not hesitate to say so. 3331. What do you think is defective in connection with the reversing gear ? I have not examined it yet. 3332. Mr. Srown.'] Tou are coming up to a point at which it will be evidently necessary for Mr. Midelton to see these engines. 3333. Mr. Hoyle (to. Witness) .J Can you go to the sheds at Eveleigh to-morrow morning, for the purpose of inspecting the engines, and come here in the afternoon ? Tes. 3334. Mr. Brown.'] It seems to me that it is the best thing for him to do that before going on any further with his evidence. I want to draw your attention to the fact that the boss of the wheel has been bored out to make room for the increased axle ? I think that is a great mistake. 3335. I do not want you to answer that question now. I want you to see the engines first ? It is a question which I can answer now. 3336. Then you can answer it better after you have seen the engines. 3337. Mr. E.oyle.'] Then, under the circumstances, as I have a great many more questions to ask Mr. Midelton, I would suggest an adjournment until to-morrow. 3338. Professor Warren.] I have a few questions that I might ask him now. 3339. Mr. Soyle.] Before you proceed, Professor Warren, and whilst the matter is fresh in my mind, will you allow me to say to Mr. Midelton that I want him to examine particularly the valve buckles, the cross-heads, the size of the cylinder, the pistons, the wheels — very particularly the wheels — and, if he can, the axles also. 3340. Witness.] In order to do all that Mr. Hoyle has asked me to do, it would be necessary for me to start at daylight and to go on until 12 o'clock (noon.) 3341. Mr. Soyle.] And I want to know the position of the gauge-glass on the boiler. 3342. President (to Witness)] . As far as I am concerned — I want you, of course, to do all that Mr. Hoyle has asked you — but, for me particularly, to notice the spokes with the so-called cracks in them, where undoubtedly some putty has been piit in. 3343. Mr. Hoyle.'] Engine No. 447 is the one we were looking at, and also engine 456. 3344. President'^ Engine No. 456, I remember. If you will look at them you will see that there are places where you can put your knife in a little way, and also if they give you a hammer you might sound the spokes. 3345. Mr. Brown.] Let us settle how this gentleman is to go down there, and what of&cer the Eailway Commissioners will instruct to meet him. 3346. Mr. FeJinn.] The best thing is for Mr. Midelton to get a note from Mr. McLachlan, our Secretary, and for us to appoint an officer to meet him. 3347. Mr. Brown.] Would it not be better for you to give him an order now, say, that he is to go with Mr. Howe or with Mr. Stanger, or some other officer. 3848. The Secretary for Railways.] Here is an order that will answer that question. 3349. Witness^ At 9 o'clock, to-morrow morning, I will be at Mr. Howe's office, I dare say that will be convenient for the Commissioners' officers. 3350. Professor Warren (to Witness) .] We were referring a short time ago to the Baldwin passenger engines as shown on the photograph over there. I want to ask you whether the hauling power of an engine depends upon the weight of the driving wheels ? Hauling power depends upon the weight upon the driving wheels and the cylinders, and the pressure, of course. 3351. Tes ; but I am assuming that the proper proportion is maintained between adhesion and driving power. Supposing you have a weight of 45 upon the driving wheel and you reduce it to 48 tons ? That is too little. 3352. But never mind that ? Then she will slip and not haul at all. 3853. But supposing the engine power is adjusted to the weight upon the driving wheels, what then ? If the weight is adjusted to the power of the cylinder she will haul the full load that was intended when you designed her, whatever that may be. If she is loaded too lightly as regards the cylinders she will slip. Many engines are over-cylindered — that is, the adhesive weight is not sufficient for using up the cylinder power. Here we have a case, and the engine is too heavy for our rails, yet not heavy enough for the reasons given, 3354. But would not the engine haul so much less in the proportion that 45 bears to 43 ? Tes ; just the same as a horse with a man on its back and a man off its back. If you have a horse in a dray it will pull more if the load upon its back is increased by the weight of the shafts as against traces. 3855. That is to say, that the reduction of the weight upon the driving wheels would reduce propor- tionately the power of the engine ? Decidedly. 3356. Tour own engine was tested by Mr. Eoberts, of South Australia, and also by Mr. Alison Smith, was it not ? Tes ; the early one was tested in 1887. 3357. The loads that it would draw up the Lapstone incline were demonstrated by that test ? Tes. 3358. And the speed was taken during the test ? No, I do not think the speed was taken ; it was a ques- tion who would get there first. I contended that Mr. Scott's engine was wrong and I have proved it. 3359. Mr. Hoyle was asking that your engine should be tested as well as the Baldwin engine H Tes. 3360. Mr. Mhon.] We test it every day. 3361. Witness.] It has been tested for the last five years, and it has done the work of the country for long before these ten-wheeled engines came here. 3362. Professor Warren (to Witness) .] Can you give any reason why your engine should be tested ? Tes ; because the weight is properly adjusted according to the cylinder power. It will pull more in proportion to its cylinder power than the Baldwin engine. It will pull its full load, which I consider the Baldwin engine will not do without the use of sand. 3363. Mr. Fehon.] We have never questioned the power of Mr. Midelton's engine to draw its load. It is a very good engine, and was the most powerful engine we had before the arrival of the new engines. 3364. 110 BAIBWIN LOCOMOTITES INQtriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ^'■- 3364. Professor Warren.] My object in asking the question was to find whether Mr. Midelton, as the T. Midelton. designer of the engine, could'offer any strong reason why the test should be made. Otherwise, I should 3 'ivT'^TRq? ^® obliged to oppose it, as I do not see what useful purpose it serves in connection with this inquiry, may, isa^. gggg ^^^ ffehon.'] We should object very strongly to anything of the sort. , , . . 3366. Witness.'] My reason for asking that the test should be inade, is that the weight on the driving wheels is in proportion to the cylinder power of the engine, and is properly adjusted. That is not the case with the Baldwin engine, or with the new Manchester engihes, and I want to prove that I am right; and that they are wrong. . . 3367. Professor Warren!] Yes ; but we are not trying your engines, the Baldwin engine was ordered td do certain work, and we want to ascertain whether it will do that work ? The new Manchester engine was brought out for a similar purpose, and indeed it was brought out to do more work. If I might make a suggestion, I should like the Baldwin engine and the new Manchester engine tested as Trotessor Warren suggests, and then to have my own engine tested "against both._ 3368. Mr. Brown.] My mind is not made up with regard to the necessity for these tests. 3369. Witness.] It is J;he most important question before the country. 3370. Mr. Hoyle.] I shall press for these tests afterwards. 3371 . Professor Warren.] I shall ask for whatever tests I think necessary. 3372. President (to Mr. JHoyle).] Have you got any other witnesses this afternoon ? 3378. Mr. HoyU:] No, I have not. 3374. President.] I do not want to hurry you in the least, but how long do you think your case will take ? 3375. Mr. Hoyle.] Well., I suppose now, in consequence of the new development, it will take the whole of this week and probably the best part of next week. 3376. Professor Warren^ I think we should meet oftener ? 3377. Mr. Hoyle^ If you meet oftener it will be a very serious matter to me. I will point out to the Commission that I have my business to look after, and that I have to employ a man to take care of it iu lily absence. 3378. President.] If we do not meet oftener and bring this matter to a conclusion it will be a very serious thing to me. I also have my work to do, and I cannot get anyone else to do it for me. 3379. Mr. Hoyle.] I should suggest, Mr. President, that we should meet earlier. 3380. President.] Professor Warren is not able to attend earlier than two o'clock ; he has his lectures td attend to. So far as I am concerned I should feel inclined to meet more frequently, but Professor Warren cannot meet earlier. 3381. Mr. Brown.] We must also consider the officials. They are already working fifteen hours a day. 8382. President.] Have you any other witnesses that you could call now, Mr. Hoyle ? 3383. Mr. Hoyle.] No, I do not think that I have. 3384. President.] We are desirous of meeting you in every way in our power, you will understand that ; but can you give me any estimate of how long a time your case will last. It seems to me, as things are going at present, that we shall have a lease of this room for a long time. 3385. Mr. Fehon.] Driver Moses is still on the premises. 3386. Mr. Hoyle.] 1 have already stated the reason why I cannot call Driver Moses. 3387. President.] If what you refer to as being necessary for you to read before calling Driver Moses is in the original depositions, I have got them. They have been sent down from the Justice Department. 3388. Mr. Hoyle.] I want to ask Driver Moses certain questions, and I should like to see the deposi- tions before doing so. As far as I am concerned, I wish to get through this matter as soon as possible, but I have the public to consider as well as myself. However, if the Commission will intimate to me they do not think there is anything in my charges, I am prepared to give the case up at once. 3389. President.] On the contrary, that would be the strongest reason for going on, to allow you to finish your charges. If we thought there was nothing in the evidence that you have called so far, it would be very wrong of us to stop you. I do not know what view any other member of the Commission has. I only know what my own view is, and at present it is a very undefined one. The fact that you have so far not made out your charges would be the last reason for stopping you. 3390. Mr. Brown.] That would never do, Mr. Hoyle. 3391. Mr. Hoyle.] I am very anxious to meet the convenience of the Commission in this matter. 3392. President.] We quite understand that. Mr. Midelton will inspect the engines to-morrow morningj and attend here to continue his evidence at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. WEDNESDAY, 4i MAT, 1892. [The Commission met at 2 o'clock in the Board Poom, Colonial Secretary's Office.] ^xzseni:— r. E. EOGERS, Esq., Q.C, President. Pbofessoe WAEEEN", M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDEE BEOWN, Esq., J.P. 3393. Mr. Hoyle.] Before Mr. Midelton comes in I wish to ask the Commission if they would ask the Engineer-in-Chief to supply me with a section of the rail or rails now in use between Wallerawang and Bathurgt. I wish to have a sketch of this sections oi these tails. 3394. Mr. Fehon.] That coraeS in Mr. Deane's department, and he is a Public Works officer, aiid is not under the control of the Eailway Commissioners. 3395. Professor Warren.] Would it not answer our purpose if the Secretary to the Eailway Commissioners sent a letter to Mr. Deane asking him to supply the particulars you desire. 8396. Mr. Fehon.] Tes, I thinls we could do that. 3397. Mr. Hoyle!] There is one other matter I would like to bring before the Commission before going any further. I have called Mr. Midelton to give evidence before this Commission, and as he is oiitside the Eailway Department, I have thought that, under the circumstances, he and other gfelitlemeB. whom I may call, being professional men, and being put to loss of time and inconvenience in coming hfere, the Commission might make some arrangement to give these gentlemen some recompense for their attenda,nce, knd as this is a matter which the Commission might have to consider, I thought it would be well to raise the question now. 1 think that in the case of Mr. Midelton siieh an allowance as 1 have mentioned niigM be toadej 3398. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINFTES OF ETIDENCE. Ill 3398. President.'] Very well, Mr. Hoyle ; we shall see about it. 3399. Professor Warren:] Quite so. Mr. Midelton has been instructed by the Commission to do certain things, and we shall take your suggestion into consideration. Thomas Midelton further examined : — 3400. I wish to ask the permission of the President to kindly allow me to correct an error I made Mr. yesterday with regard to the newest Manchester engines. I said they were upon separate springs, but I T. Midelton. now find on closer examination, made by me this morning, that the driving and leading springs are com- r — -•'-''n pensated. That was alluded to yesterday in looking at the photographs. The trailing wheels, I may * ^=-7' 1^92. mention, are separate as I first said. 3401. Professor Warren.] The two first driving wheels are, you say, compensated, and the wheels behind are on separate springs ? Yes, which is rather worse, I think, than what I said before. 3402. Mr. Hoyle.] "When we concluded yesterday afternoon it was arranged that Mr. Midelton should visit the Eyeleigh shops and inspect the i3aldwin' engines now under inquiry. I should like to know, Mr. Midelton, if you have made that inspection ? Teg, I have seen engines 456 and 447 this morning. 3403. In examining these engines perhaps it would be well if Mr. Midelton would state his opinions about them, without interrogation ? The first question alluded to was, I think, the valve buckles. I have carefully examined a broken buckle from No. 456 or 417, I do not clearly remember which, but it was one of the class. On first appearance it struck me that the buckle was light ; as to the quality of the material I could not see since it was quite rusty in the fracture. Comparing that buckle with the English designed buckles, I consider it to be light, but there is a set-off against that in the fact that as the slide valves are " balanced " in the American engines, these buckles, compared with the English buckles, appear strong enough. In the English engines the buckles are very strong, because the slide valves are not " balanced." Making them light must be looked on favourably on account of the valve being " balanced," but even under these conditions I think they are a little weak. I should have made them stronger, but that will perhaps be rectified a little later on. With regard to the reversing gear as originally constructed, the fulcrum pin of the main lever is decidedly defective. The bearing portion of the pin is large enough for the stress, but it was reduced in diameter where it screwed into the bracket fastened to the boiler. That reduced its strength and made it very weak. It should have been slightly larger if anything. This, I understand, has been rectified here and acknowledged by the makers. 3404. President.] The defect in the pin of the reversing gear was the only defect you found in that gear ? Tes ; that was an original defect, but it has been made right by the company. With reference to the piston cross-heads of the passenger engines, they are fitted with gun metal slide blocks, which, I believe, will be found to wear very rapidly. 1 should certainly object to them. It is a detail certainly. Some engineers consider particular material best, some prefer gun metal, and some cast iron. I prefer cast iron. But I do not consider that a very grave defect. I am rather surprised that the company have put in such metal, but I suppose they have some reason for it which I do not understand. 3405. With regard to the pistons ? They are not excessive in weight. I refer to the passenger engine. I had not an opportunity of looking at the goods engine, but I think they would be rather heavy on the slide bar when the engines run without steam, the connecting rods being so very long. 3406. Professor Warren.] Grun metal would be dearer as a matter of fact ? Tes, and I think it would wear faster. 3407. So that it would not be put in for economy, I suppose ? Wo ; I imagine it has been put in to test some mixture of metal. It may be Ajax metal or some similar material — a patented article perhaps. Eor my own part I prefer cast iron. 3408. Mr. FeJion.] I would call the attention of the Commission to the fact that these arc all little matters of detail in connection with the building of the engines, and not affecting the question of their being " faulty in design." Those are the words used by Mr. Hoyle, I think, in his charge. It is a matter of opinion between makers which they will use. One may adopt one design, others another. 3409. President.] We do not care about any other charges except that these engines are defective, and the other matters we are required to investigate by our commission. It does not seem to me that this evidence with regard to the metal shows that the engines are at all defective ; on the other hand, if a dearer article had been put in, it would seem to be for some special purpose of the makers. 3410. Professor Warren.] I think Mr. Midelton's evidence shows that this is a matter of opinion, and that this was not done for economy; however, it is obviously a matter of opinion. (Witness.^ I examined a piston ; there was a spare one for a passenger engine ; it is not too heavy for a cylinder 21 inches in diameter, but an effort has been made by the company to reduce the weight of pistons, and a li<:hter kind has been recently designed, so that the importance of reducing the weight was recognised. All engineers recognise the importance of reducing the weight of the piston, crosshead, &c. 3411. President.] Well, there is nothing wrong with it ? No, I did not see anything wrong with it really. The axle-boxes I saw did not show much with regard to lateral wear ; I asked if they had run over the mountains, and I was informed that they had run in the Bathurst district. The axle-boxes hijd a tendency to wear into the wheels, but not unduly in the engines I saw. I know that the boxes do wear unless they are properly designed, looked after, lubricated, and so on. I think it is an unnecessary and improper expenditure to put brass axle-boxes on the engines. 3412. Ptesident.] We do not care about that. It is not necessary to enter into the question whether the Commissioners have gone to more expense than was necessary or not ; we want to' know whether these Baldwin engines are defective or not. 3413. Witness.] I have no dOubt the leading coupled wheel axle-boxes will wear fast on the mountain curves, but not perhaps on the Northern and Southern lines, but any box will wear more on the mountain road than on the other portions, they may wear perhaps more than others from the nature of the general design, and I think that was a departure not justified in any way. I examinad the swinging links of the bogie, and they hung perfectly vertical ; that is objectionable according to my experience. The firm in question and others I believe have experimented some twelve years now, on the question of links, whether they should be hung outwards, inwards, or vertically. I think this departure in hanging these links in a vertical position is not wise, and the engines in running round an 8 or 10 chain curve at 30 or 35 miles an hour would in consequence have an undue tendency to fly off at a tangent from thp curve, and wear the flanges of the leading coupled wheels unduly. 3414. 112 BAIBWIN lOCOMOTITBS INQriET COMMISSION— MINTITES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. 3414. Professor Warren.] Tou mean it increases the oscillation in front? Tes, on curves and straights, T. Midelton. through hanging the links vertically, I think the engine would be likely to wander m front, and on the /rr'^-r^ curve she would go to the outside rail of course, whereas if the links were hung m the old way the move- 4 May, 1892. ^^^^ -^^ould he less and the engine would go as required theoretically. ,i, ■, 3415. Then if there were any defect in the road the engine might he likely to leave the rails, or more likely than if the links were hung obliquely? Tes, I think there would be more likelihood of its doing so than if they were hung in the old manner. The Manchester engine links are slightly oblique, but not so much as the American. The present Baldwin engines are hung vertically,^ but all previous engines sent here have the links hung as I prefer, excepting Mr. Scott's ten engines, which were hung the reverse way. I have found that the links hung as in the original engines are the best. I examined No. 456 engine, wheels, and axles— the wheels minutely. The manufacture seems to be fau'ly good for a new article and a new system. They are not so nicely made as a mechanic would expect so far as regards finish. The " ring " of the material seems to be fairly good. There are defects m the way of " galls," and crevices, and so on, but not in the way of weakening the wheel. On the whole they seem to be fairly well manufactured considering the new process; but at the same time they are decidedly light for that class of engine— the arms are further apart than is usual. I compared them with wheels of English design. Making that comparison I consider that in these engines the arms are too far apart. 3416. President.'] By the arms I suppose you mean the spokes ? Yes, and that tends to weaken the wheel. I do not say they are too weak for the purpose, but they are weak in proportion. The design is not symmetrical, nor what I think the company should do with their experience of cast-iron. The wheels are certainly light and hardly up to the thickness and size I should like to see them for that weight of engine. With reference to the bosses of the wheels they are particularly light, the metal surrounding the axle being only 2| inches, whilst in the English make they are fromSi to 4 inches ; the English practice is to make them too heavy, and the American practice — in this instance — is to make them too light ; I should prefer to have them between the two. They are certainly light as regards the metal round the axle, and also the metal round the crank pins ; I dare say that in heavy pulling defects will develop ; it will be found difficult to keep the wheels tight on the axles — they may get loose on the axles. 3417. Professor Warren.] "With regard to the flaws in the spokes I suppose you sounded the spokes in each wheel? Yes, with a hammer; some of them sounded rather dull, as if cracked, but that was an exception — about one in each wheel ; there were signs of bad welding, and the material of the wheels seemed to be imperfectly distributed. 3418.. In some of the spokes did you notice an apparent flaw so that you could put a knife in them ? No, I looked very carefully, but I found flaws in the balance weight. 3419. And did you see no crack ? No ; I asked Mr. Howe to point them out to me, but I could not see any in the wheels of No. 456, and in No. 447 the latter wheels were under the engine and I could not see so well ; I failed to discover cracks alluded to by the President yesterday as being in the arm. Mr. Howe pointed out to me one little crack near the rim, but I did not think it very important. 3420. Mr. Brown.] You made a fairly careful examination ? Yes, considering the time I had at my disposal. 3421. Professor Warren.] You did not consider the spokes likely to fracture in the places you have mentioned ? It is necessary to be very cautious, and I think there will be flaws develop as the wheels are used. If I am right I may congratulate myself on the correctness of my view. I am afraid some- thing may develop later on. They are inappropriate wheels for the class of engine, and I think the company will agree with me in what I have said, and make them heavier in future. The company were especially asked to reduce the weight of the engines ; in the letters to the Railway Commissioners the Baldwin Engine Co. protested, so that they are justified in reducing the weight of the wheels in comply- ing, as far as possible, with the specifications sent here for consideration. I looked at the water gauge- glass, and I am told by a Government representative that the water-gauge is in its original position, but an additional gauge had been placed on the engines in order to give the driver an opportunity of watching the levels. I could not say at what height it has been placed with reference to the top of fire- box, but I was told it was placed properly ; that could only be found out by measurement, but, of course, I could not do that. 3422. Mr. Proim.] On the whole your examination shows that these engines are a rough but fairly substantial job ? Well, I have stated my opinion and enumerated the various details examined. 3423. Mr. Brown.] Have you examined them sufficiently to say that there are defects in the engines which render them unsuitable for our railways ? No ; but I say they are too heavy for our roads, and therefore unsuitable. I did not see anything in the wheels in the sense which defect is understood, they are not the class of workmanship one would expect from the Baldwin Co., but it is to be remembered the work was done in a hurry; indeed I know the job was done in a hurry. On the whole they seem to me to be a fairly good job, but they are not right. 3424. President.] That is to say they are not finished like the Beyer and Peacock engine that we saw at Eveleigh — ^there is not the same finish upon them as upon the English engines, but supposing the permanent- way to be suitable for them do you think that the wheels of the engines are defective ? I think they will show defects in the course of time. I think there will be development which we would prefer not to have. 3425. Mr. Brown.] Did you examine the bogie wheels where they had been bored ? Yes ; and I think it a most indiscreet, injudicious, and wrong thing to do. To bore out the wheels to put larger axles in is a most stupid thing to do, the friction is greater now than before with the same weight, as the circumferential speed is greater. 3426. Mr. Pelion.] Has it not been the practice of the Department within your own experience to put on axles in this way and then shrink on an iron ring ? It has been the practice of my successor and predecessors, but I would not have allowed it ; it has many times been done wrongly, and not for reasons that could be justified. 3427. It has been done with your own engines, I believe ? Yes, the first ten, and I actually saw one of the ten from Dubs in which a larger axle had been put, and brass boxes had been put in, quite unnecessarily. 3428. Mr. Brown.] Then you don't agree with it? No, I do not. 3429. But it was the practice of your predecessors ? Yes. 3430. Professor Warren.] How much has the axle been increased in diameter ? I think from 5 to 5i inches ; I think that would be the dimension. 3431. 4 MaT, 1892. DlT.DWiy ibCOMOTITJiS INQUIEY COMMISSIOX — MINtTES OP ETIDEXCE. 113 3431. Assuming it to be 5| inches? I do not quite know the dimension, but it is a considerable increase. ^'^■ 3432. "Well, assuming it to be that you say that the friction has been increased, that is to say, the friction J^^^'^^' Avould be increased in proportion to the radius, the radius has been increased a quarter of an inch, the friction I suppose would also be increased by the extra weight of the axle ? The weight of the axle has ' only been slightly increased — due to the extra diameter, the weight on the bearing is the same. 3433. The friction is greater ? It was less than it is now. 3434. Th6,load upon the wheels will be about S-j tons ? Yes. 3435. So that it is a very small degree of weight ? Yes, but it is an increase of working expense. 3436. In boring out the boss to a larger diameter in order to get a larger axle in, you have a larger •jourual, the increase in surface would be proportional ; for at all events it would mean a larger brass and a larger surface, the pressure per unit of area would be less than before, and there would be a tendency to beat ? Would be greater; — how do you justify that? 3437. In this way, you are trying to show that the speed does not affect it ? No, I am not. 8438. "Well, I must misunderstand you. I think your doctrine is that if the axle is increased in diameter the speed of the axle, on account of the greater circumference, is faster. "Why not increase the journal up to the size of the wheel? You have a better bearing perhaps, but there is an increase of friction. I consider that an axle of 5 inches is better than 5^ inches. Axles are made larger in diameter now for strength and tortional resistance. 3439. Your evidence is that by increasing the diameter of the journal you increase the friction ? Yes ; due to the es;tra speed. 3440. President.'] In this way, if I take this pencil and turn it round, then in order to turn round a bigger one in the same time the circumference would have to go faster ? Yes ; and the consequence is the friction and the consumption of oil is greater, I think it would be a very unwise and unnecessary step to take.' 3441. Professor Warren.'] But have the axles been increased also throughout,' so as to give extra strength except in the journal ? I do not know whether they were increased, but they were quite large enough. It is a ridiculous alteration, and I think a most injudicious one. These tender axles are of iron, mine are steel. 3442. Then these axles you say have not been increased to give extra strength, do you know why ? I do not know why, but it seems to me a most unwise thing to do, and I would like to know the reason why it was done. I know of no reason except that it was to alter things that were right before. 3443. They ran hot I believe ? That may not be the fault of the brasses or the axles, it was perhaps the fault of some one connected with the supervision of the engines. 3444. If the axle had flaws in it, would that have any effect ? These steel-axles have no flaws t 3445. But assuming there were flaws in the axles through which dirt would come out — would no that make the axles run hot ? Yes ; I should think it would increase the friction. 3446. "Well, we had evidence to that effect ? — 3447. President.] Do you refer to the heating of the bogie-axle of the Baldwin passenger engine? No, I am referring to the Dubs engines. 3448. Oh, I understood you were referring to the Baldwin engines ; we do not want to know anything about any engines but the Baldwin. 3449. Professor JVarren.] I also thought ho was referring to the Baldwin engines ? Ko ; I meant the Dubs' engine. 3450. President.] "We have evidence that the axles on the Baldwin engines were running hot, and it was said that this was because some slag worked out, got through the metal, and increased the friction ; well, do you say that this was due to bad management, or want of supervision, or is it an inherent defect in the axle itself? I saw a Baldwin axle this morning which had laminations in the surface, such as I described yesterday ; if the dirt came from these laminations it would tend to make the boxes run hot, but whether it is so or not I cannot say, but seeing that these axles showed laminations when put in the engine, it was for the driver to look particularly after them to see that they did not run hot. As to the axle of No. 447, Baldwin engine, if I had been superintendent I do not think I should have allowed it to go under, judging from the appearance of it ; it was a 6-inch axle. I also saw an old engine of Stephenson's with iron axles, and two — the leading and trailing — had laminations in them. The crank axle was of steel, and looked very good indeed. I also saw a Beyer and Peacock iron axle, it also had laminations ; Stephenson, Beyer and Peacock, and Baldwin engines, with iron axles, each had laminations, but they were not so defective that I would reject them ; but with regard to the Baldwin engine bogie — S-ineh axle — I would hesitate before I put that axle under the engine. 3451. "Will you tell us now about the Baldwin engines ; — the boxes of the Baldwin engines have been increased in size ? Yes. 3452. Do you consider that injudicious ? Yes, I do. I think it a wasteful expenditure. 3453. "Weil, whether it was wasteful or not, that is not the question to determine. Did this boring out make anything unsafe ; — has it left the boss too small ? No, I do not think it has been made unsafe. '3454. Professor JVarren.] It has merely increased the friction in the manner you have described before ? Yes. 3455. But the axle is not so likely to break ? If the axle is 5 inches and good, it is not likely to break. 3456. Have you any other point to make ? No, I think these remarks cover all I was requested to investigate. 3457. Mr. Proton.] We were told, Mr. Midelton, that certain alterations were made in these engines at the request of the oflScers of the G-overnment. You will find them contained in the first part of the correspondence. (A.) " The engines require, however, the following modifications : — ^Our coal being good, the grate area might be somewhat reduced, lessening the weight on each driving-axle to not exceed 144 gross tons, or 32,500 lb. Our water being bad, the fire-box should be copper, and the tubes brass. No bell is required. Hand -brakes and Westinghouse automatic are wanted on all driving and all tender wheels. Screw reversing-gear is wanted. Trailing sand-pipes behind rear driving-wheels are wanted. The sand-boxes would be preferred on or under the foot-plate, instead of on top of boiler. 6— P Bushes 114l BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION- — MINTTES OP ETIDENCB. m -J^I'm Buslies are preferred on coupling-rods. i i. . -^1 ^ X. mideitoo. rpj^g connecting-rod would be preferred witt adjusting cotters, and split brasses as usual, but without A, Mav isq2 straps. . '' The capacity of the tender should not be less than 3,600 American gallons. The gauge of road is 4 ft. 8^ in. The extreme height of chimney sHould not exceed 13 ft. 6 in. The extreme width of engine should not exceed 9 ft. 6 in., and, if possible, should not exceed 9 ft. 3 in." I may explain that they were talking with regard to an engine described m the Bailroad Gazette, 18th June, 1890. A conference of Grovernment officers, who had that engine before them as a pattern, was held, and they agreed that this engine appeared to be suitable and sufficiently powerful for our require- ments if certain alterations were made, and they consist of what I have just read to you. "What I wish to caU particular attention to is the first part,—" Our coal being good, the great grate area might be somewhat reduced, lessening the weight on each driving-axle, to not exceed 14|- gross tons, or 32,500 lb.," and the next is that the extreme width of the engine should not exceed 9 feet 6 inches, and if possible, should not exceed 9 feet 3 inches. Now, I want to know from you if these modifications would interfere with the efficiency of the engine ? Tes, and it saddles the whole responsibility on the manu- facturer instead of on the person drawing the specifications. 3458. Mr. Fehon.'\ "We had no specifications at the time ? Ton had the BaUroad Gazette. 3459. Mr. Brown.'] I am not quite satisfied upon this point. "What I want to know is, whether the amendments made by the officers, and which I have read to you, would interfere with the efficiency and speed of these engines, because I understand that the Company would not guarantee the speed of the engines if the alterations were made. I wish to obtain your opinion, and you have said that it would inter- fere with the efficiency and Speed of the engine, and you also say it throws the responsibility on the makers. 3460. Witness.'] It is unfair to throw such responsibility on the makers, seeing that the Government officers had the design and specification of the Baltimore and Ohio engines before them. 3461. Professor 'Warren.'] Mr. Brown has asked questions with regard to the reduction of speed ;— you said yesterday that the decreased weight on the driving-wheel would reduce the speed in proportion to that reduction ? I said it would reduce the tractive force. The Baltimore and Ohio engine is, in my opinion, rather light also. To ask the Company to make our engines lighter is to ask them to make the engines still more unfit for our Hues. 3462. The weight on the wheels could only reduce the hauling power, so that the hauling power would be reduced in proportion ? Tes ; the engiue for the Baltimore and Ohio Railway is light, according to my experience, for the cylinder power, and to ask the Company to make a lighter engine still, and yet make it like the Baltimore and Ohio engine, is rather a paradox to me. I do not see how it can be done. 3463. Is the cylinder power the same as the Baltimore and Ohio engine ? No ; the latter has 2 inches larger stroke, and the tractive force is greater. 3464,. There is not the same adhesion ? No ; the Baltimore and Ohio is the better of the two. The Eailway Commissioners' officers wanted an engine like the Baltimore and Ohio. They specified for something else, and they got what they asked for. They wanted a lighter engine, and specified material which would make it heavy. 3465. Mr. Brown.] I think you have said that the road was not strong enough for these engines ; well, do you know Dr. "Williams ? Tes. Would he not be qualified to give an opinion on that question ? Tes, if he had seen our road lately, I would not ask for a better opinion. 3466. "Well, supposing he says — " We recommend you to take a Baltimore and Ohio engine, because we believe it will be suitable for your roads." Do you consider that would be a reliable opinion ? I do not think he would do so, unless he actually knew the actual dimensions of our rails, &c. He might say that he believed our roads to be suitable, but he would not know it. It was the duty of the Grovernment to furnish the Company with the weight of the rail, and all particulars, and then he might have given an opinion which would be absolutely safe to act upon. 3467. Tou say that these gentlemen — the officers of the department — ^in making the amendments I have read, committed a mistake ? Tes, there is no doubt about that in my mind — -they made a grave mistake. 3468. Professor 'PFarren.] Tou have given us a limited weight on the 71-lb. rail, I think ? Tes, all the authorities agree on that point, Molesworth and others. Mr. "Whitton, Mr. Burnett, myself and others all agree upon this point, until my successors came in, and they have increased the weight. 3409. Mr. Brown.] I am going to read part of the correspondence from the Baldwin Engine Company about the suitability of these engines to our roads. These gentlemen, writing on the 10th October, 1890, say that : — " Basing our estimates on Dr. Williams' experience with the engines shipped per " Niobe " in 1879, we are willing to undertake the erection under steam at 300 dollars each, exclusive of cost of shop space." Prom this you will see that Dr. "Williams was there at the time, and that they were able to consult with him, for they say subsequently, " As we understand that the permanent-way of the New South "Wales railways is of a much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad, we see no reason why the engines built for the latter should not be adopted entire." Do you not think that Dr. WiUiams was speaking from an intelligent and authoritative point of view ? Tes ; I think he was doing quite right ; he was endeavouring to induce the Grovernment, from his experience, to adopt the Baltimore and Ohio engine intact, and, from his knowledge gained here, he estimated that our permanent way was strong enough to carry these engines. He does not say from his own knowledge that it is, but he thinks so. 3470. But I understood you to say that the Baltimore and Ohio engines would be too heavy, how do you reconcile that with this recommendation ? Seeing that' the Grovernment officers ask for a lighter engine than the Baltimore and Ohio this is prima facie evidence that they thought our rails not heavy enough, and they should have known that the reduced engines would be too light. Dr. "Williams recommends the heavier ones. I do not think that Dr. "Williams, with all due deference to his opinion, from his experience gained here twelve years ago, leaving here in 1878 or 1879, coijld carry in his memory the condition of our road up to the present time ; he simply advises the Grovernment to do what he thought best. 3471. I suppose that he knew that our rails were 71-lb. or 75-lb. ? Tes ; I dare say. M72. Professor PFarren.] Do you think he was wrong in his opinion ? No ; I think he was doing right, speaking in Philadelphia as he was, with the object of introducing business in the best way. 3473. BALDWIlSr LOCOMOTIVES INQOTET COMMISSION — MINTTTES OP ETIDENCE. 115 3473. Mr. Brown.] Tou do regard Dr. "Williams as a reliable authority? Tes ; his visit to these colonies ^r. was one of the best things that ever happened to them. Had his advice been fully acted upon, we should _ f _" ' have benefitted much. • 4'm~1892 3474. President.] "What do you mean by " talking from that end from a business standpoint ?" The *^' ' Company say, we fear it will cause disappointment to you if you have the engines much lighter. Tou had better accept the Baltimore and Ohio engine intact. 3475. Mr. Brown.] He says, I think your permanent-way is suitable for these engines. 3476. Professor Warren.] I take it your evidence shows that both engines were too heavy ? Tes ; the Baltimore and Ohio, engine was too heavy, but they asked for a duplicate of that engine, " only that it should be lighter," and Dr. "Williams is consulted, and he says he thinks the heavier engine would be suitable for our roads and the altered engine end in disappointment. 3477. Mr. Brown.] But he says the Baltimore and Ohio engines— that is, these Baldwia engines— are suitable for our permanent way ; — is he not a competent man, with a knowledge of our railways ? Tes ; but he only expresses an opinion based on what he believes. 3478. Professor Warren.] "What is the practice in America, from your knowledge, with regard to the weights on the driving-wheel and the rails ; — is it a fact that the Americana put heavier weights on their wheels than the English think prudent ? "Tes ; if you read the last number of Engineering News you will see the folly of doing that. In the Eastern States that is a thing of the past. 3479. The March nunaber ? Tes ; I think there is an article on the very question there. They state that the Baltimore and Ohio road is a very heavy one, 85 lb. to the yard, steel rails, "Vignoles section. 3480. The Baltimore and Ohio railroad ? Tes ; they are 67 and 85 lb. to the yard rails. 3481. Professor Warren.] Are the Baltimore and Ohio engines running on a 67-lb. rail ? I do not know — I q^uestion it very much ; speaking of course of those we are now considering. 3482. "Which do you mean, the express or the ten- wheel ? If you ask me whether the ten-wheel engine is running on a 67-lb. rail I should say I do not think it does. If it does the sleepers must be very close together. In any case that fact, if it is a fact, does not show that it is the right thing to do. 3483. The American practice would justify a heavier weight being put on the rails ; is not that a fact ? Tes; they have used heavy engines on light rails to their cost, and I refer you to the article in Engirteering News to justify what I say. 3484._ Professor Warren.] The general tendency is to use heavier rails, following the English and G-erman practice, is it not ? Tes ; in America they now go in for necessary heavy rails. 3485. President.] Dr. "Williams, I understood you to say, was out here ? Tes ; he was here in 1878. 3486-7. President.] Will you look at page 5 of the correspondence, about eight lines down, it is said, " "We presume our supply of September 5th made this clear. Basing our estimates on Dr. Williams' experience with the engines shipped per ' Niobe,' in 1879, we are willing to undertake the erection under steam at 300 dollars each, exclusive of cost of shop space." What do you understand by those words, "basing our estimates on Dr. Williams' experience, that the engines shipped per ' Niobe,' in 1879, we are willing to undertake, &c."? That refers to the cost of delivery only. 3488. President.] I cannot answer questions ; I want you to do so. Will you now go down about twenty-five lines further in the next paragraph, or the paragraph after. It says : — " As we understand that the permanent-way bf the New South "Wales railways is of a much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad, we see no reason why the engines biiilt for the latter could not be adopted entire." "Wbo could they understand that from except it was Dr. Williams ? They say, " as We understand that the permanent-way of the New South Wales railways is of a much more substantial -character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad." Who could tell them that but Dr. Williams ? If he had said distinctly: "as I know that your permanent-way is more substantial," then I could understand it ; but it is not worded in that way. 3489. The Baldwin engine people are speaking, and they say : " as we understand that the per- manent-way of the New South Wales railway is of a much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad." "Who could they understand that from but Dr. Williams ? No one. 3490. Then it is quite clear that he believed the permanent-way of this Colony was more substantial than that of the Baltimore and Ohio railroad. Tes, I suppose that is the inference. 3491. If so, surely the Commissioners did no wrong in leaning to the right side by asking for an engine of a lighter type than the Baltimore and Ohio engine ? Tes ; but they say to wind up : " we should be gratified if, on further consideration, this is decided upon"; asking again for the adoption of their Baltimore and Ohio engine. 3492. It is stated in this letter : " We see no reason why the engines built for the latter" — meaning the Baltimore and Ohio railroad — " could not be adopted entire." I suppose that it would be more trouble to the Company to alter the engines to the design required in the modifications than to send out the original Baltimore and Ohio engine ? Tes; and the Government officers actually asked the Company, after they had reduced the dimensions, to reduce the price also. 3493. We have nothing to do with the price, but assuming that Dr. Williams was a competent person, and you admit that ? He is an eminent man, the head of the firm. 3494. Well, if he told them that our permanent- way would do for the Baltimore and Ohio engines, what wrong did the Commissioners do in asking the Company to make something lighter for them ? They did this wrong ; — if they knew he was right in his opinion there was no necessity for any alteration. Dr. Williams' firm said : " We should be gratified if, on further consideration, this is decided upon," meaning if they would take the Baltimore and Ohio engines it would be more satisfactory for everybody. 3495. But what wrong did the Eailway Commissioners do if the permanent-way could carry a heavier engine, and they order a lighter one ? What wrong was there ? 3496. Tes, what impropriety of conduct was there ? That is what we have to consider ? The wrong they did was to reduce the efficiency of the engine. 3497. If the permanent-way would have carried one of the ordinary Baldwin engines, was there any harm done in asking the Company to make a similar kind of engine, only a little lighter ? The wrong has been done in asking the Baldwin Company to build a heavier engine than we had before. They saw that the Baltimore and Ohio engine was too heavy for us, and they asked the Company to make a lighter engine. 3498. Tes, I know that is your view, but do you agree with Dr. Williams ? The Baldwin Company was asked to build these engines in a hurry ; they say, " Tou appear to want a Baltimore and Ohio engine,''^-we fttB BAI,DWlisr LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEY COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. have duplicates of tliese, and Hope to induce you to take them intact, but you must decide whether you T. MideUon. ^-^^ ^^^^ ^Yiem intact or whether we shall make them lighter"; and they preferred the lighter engine— the a'^Zt^^^^T^.^ filtered one. , ,, ,. 4 May, 3892. g^gg^ ^^ j^^ Williams is right in telling them that the permanent-way here would carry an ordinary B. and 0. engine, supposing that the Commissioners here and the Baldwin Engine Company took his advice, if he said they were substantial enough to carry an ordinary Baldwin Engine, was there any harpi done by the Commissioners in saying, "We shall not have an ordinary Baltimore and Ohio Baldwin engine" ? If he said so, but he does not say so. He gives the Government the best advice he can give. 3500. Well, what do you understand by that sentence, " As we understand that the permanent-way of the New South Wales railways is of much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railway, we see no reason why the engine built for the latter could not be adopted entire ; do you think they understood that from Dr. Williams, do you not think they did ; and then they say, we see no reason why the engines built for the Baltimore and Ohio railroad should not be- adopted m New; bouth Wales? Yes ; they say, we see no reason why we should not take the Baltimore and Ohio engines intact. 3501. Most naturally they do so ; but I suppose they had them in hand ;— but what we want to know is whether the engines ordered were suitable to the permanent-way of the Colony or not ? Tes. 3502. You say they are unsuitable for the permanent- way, do you say that for any other reason than that they are too heavy ? Yes ; they are too heavy. 3503. Well, do you not see that it is only fair that we should also know what the gentleman who was on the spot and had seen our railways, and who was, as you say, a most eminent man, had to say ? But since Dr. Williams had been here steel rails have come into use. Dr. Williams, as I say, advises his firm in this correspondence; and his firm says, " We should be gratified if, on further considera- tion, it is decided upon." The Grovernment rejected his advice. 3504. He would be gratified, , no doubt, if the G-overnment did not depart from the standard of the Baltimore and Ohio engine ; but the Company said, " As we understand that the permanent-way of the New South Wales railway is of a much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad." Now I want you to say what harm you think the Commissioners did ia ordering a still lighter engine, when their road was even more substantial than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad. Did you not say that some of the rails on the Baltimore and Ohio line weighed 67 lb. to the yard ? Yes ; and some 85 lb. to the yard. 3505. But the road for the purpose of the engines going over it would be no stronger than the weakest part of it ; do these Baldwin engines run over the 67-lb. rails ? I have not said so. The Commissioners, 1 believe, are going to prove that. I leave it to the Commissioners. 3506. Where did these engines run between ? Between Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington. 3507. Is there any part of that road laid in 67-lb. rails ? I think 85-lb. rails are laid throughout. Con- sidering the weight on the driving-wheels of the Baldwin engine working the " Eoyal Blue" express, I do not think a 67-lb. rail would carry them. 3508. What is the weight on the driving-wheel of our engines — I mean the Baldwin engines ? Six and a half tons on the Moguls. 3509. Mr. Hoyle.'] In any case, then, you believe that Dr. Williams was wrong in his calculation ? I venture to say that he went a little further in the expression of his opinion, perhaps, than he intended to. The firm certainly threw all the responsibility on the Government by writing, " We should be gratified if, on further consideration, it is decided upon." 3510. If he recommended these engines with the weights on them they bear, considering the strength of our rails, he would be wrong ? I think he would say that the engines are too heavy if he knew that we had 71-lb. rails. I suppose he did not remember the weight of the rails ; it was the duty of the Govern- ment to send him a section. If they wanted a heavier engine than the rail would carry they should have sent a section and all particulars. 3511. Do you know Mr. Price Williams ? I do not know him personally, but I have heard of him. 3512. He is a man of some considerable repute ? Yes ; some people think so. 3513. Well, I find in his report laid upon the table of the Legislative Assembly on the 13th August, 1889, that he recommends, with regard to the Great Western Railway, Granville Junction to Bathurst, as follows : — " On the down line between these two places (the Junction and Penrith) there are still about 12 miles of iron rails, which, with the exception of occasional replacements, have been on the road for periods varying from twenty-two to twenty-nine years ; here and there in the 12 miles small portions of the road have been rerailed with steel rails. The whole of this mileage, however, should be entirely relaid with steel rails, resleepered, and ballasted with blue rock ballast. The few steel rails and sleepers removed being utilized for repairs." Mr. Price Williams believed that the iron rails were not right, and recommended that they should be removed. Do you consider, taking into consideration the weight of these engines, that these rails should be removed ? Yes, I do ; I quite agree with the report there. 3514. You say you examined the valve gear this morning, and that you think it too light ? The valve buckles are certainly light. 3515. Now there have been repeated failures of the reversing gear ? So I understand. 3516. I ask you as an engineer do you think these failures ought to have taken place within so short a time of the placing of engines at work? No, I do not think failures of this kind should take place in new engines. 3517. What faults did you find in them ? The fulcrum pin of the main reversing lever is too light for the strain put upon it, and it has yielded. The valve buckles are also too light ; neither is strong enough. 3518. Could the reversing gear be caused to fail by reason of rough usage on the part of the driver ? Yes, but it would be excessively bad usage, and I do not think a driver would be guilty of anything of the kind, except in case of an accident, or if there were very great danger ahead. I do not think that with ordinary fair usase such gear as that could get out of order in such a short time. Of course, if an engine were reversed in the event of accident or anything of that kind you might expect all sorts of things to happen. 3519. Did you examine the' brake gear of the engines ? Yes. 3520. Did you consider the rod connected with the brake — the blocks — strong enough ? No, I do not think it is strong enough considering the fact that the Westinghouse brake is applied very quickly. The joints of the rod appear to me to be too light. 3521. Suppose an engine were coming down one of our roads with a heavy load on it, and this rod broke, would it be dangerous ? It might result in some trouble ; being a light rod unless it got under a wheel I do not think it would cause a very serious mishap. The drivers examine these parts of the engine evepy day, and if anything is coming out or looks wrong they keep their special eye on itj 3522i BALDWIN LOtOirOTlVES ISliUlUl COilMlsyiOJf — MIKUTES OF. ETIDEKCE. 117 3522. Suppose a driver is approachiug a station and the signal is against liim, he would in the Mr. ordinary course turn off the track, and suppose the brake gear broke, then would it be dangerous ? Yes, if 1'- Midelton. the rod gotunder the wheels, a three-quarter rod might throw the engine off, if on a curve, but ordinarily <~^' ^ I do not think there would be much probability of any exceptional danger arising from the rod breaking. ^ ^"y- ^^^^■ 3523. The driver could brake his carriages even if the gear failed ? Yes. 3524. You speak about bad welding in these wheels, now I want you to be particular about this point. You have said that the band of the wheel was rather light. Suppose the tire were turned down to its utmost limits would that be safe with the defects you have discovered ? Well I should limit the turn down to If inch instead of 1^ to that engine on account of the wheels being so light. 3525. You say there is a likelihood of danger arising from these wheels overlapping, galling, etc. Con- sidering that you hold that opinion, do you think there would be any danger if the tires were turned down even to the distance you have stated ? An inch and three quarter thickness of tire there would be less danger, but under that I should think it would be an unnecessary risk to run. 3526. Do you think there is any danger of the boss of the wheel bursting ? Yes. 3527. That is of the leading, driving, or trailing wheel ? Yes ; on account of the smallness of the metal round the axle. 3528. Did you hammer the cranks ? No ; it is such a lump of metal I could not very well do that. 3529. You have seen the size of the crank and you consider there is metal enough above the boss of the crank? Do you think that the crank boss might burst? Yes; I think the crank boss will yield sooner or later, and also the crank pins. 3530. Would the bursting of the boss of the crank be a serious matter ? Yes, it would be a very , serious matter. 3531. I mean the boss of the crank ? Yes. 3532. Did you make any examination of the boiler ? No ; I should want to see it stripped down in order to examine it inside and out. 3533. Prom your knowledge of, and what you could see of the boiler, did you think the pressure of ' IGO lb. to the square inch would be too high ? I should have to measure the' thickness of the plates, the diameter, and so forth. I cannot give an opinion from seeing the back of the firebox, which is all I saw. 3534.' Did you consider, in connection with the bogie wheel, whether the running hot has been caused more by over-weighting on the bogie than by any laminations of the iron ? It has been caused by lamin- ations of the iron with inattention to lubrication. I do not think the bogie is overweighted, although it ha.s got quite enough weight. It is rather heavy per wheel, and that is undesirable. 3535. Whose fault was the want of lubrication ; — was it the fault of the engine or the driver? I did not look at the oil-cups on the bogie boxes, but, I suppose, there would be proper provision made for lubrication, but, if not, it is evidently want of foresight in the design. 3536. It has been admitted that new provision for lubrication must be made, and this has been put on the engines since they came here. Supplementary provision was made for lubrication ? I noticed that there was some provision on the Baldwin engines for additional oil supply coming down from the side of the boiler to the coupled axles, but I did not see the same with regard to the bogies. 3537. You examined the wheels of 456? Yes ; and one was off the axle. 3538. Can you assign any reason for that axle working loose ; — is it usual for axles to work loose so shortly after the engines have been running ? It is unusual, and the only answer is that the axle must bo too small for tlie wheel. 3539. Professor Warren.^ Which wheel are you referring to ? The driving wheel. Axles are usually stamped with the pressure at which they are put on, but that was absent here. 3540. Ifr. IIoyle.~\ What is the usual pressure ? It is 10 tons to each inch of diameter usually. 354 1. Did you specify for any special pressure ? Yes ; it is usual to do so. Eighty tons to a diameter of 8 inches — that is, 10 tons to every inch of diameter. That is the rule I observe. 3542. The Baldwin Company must then have known that the axles were not tight ? The man who put the wheel on the axle must have known it. 3543. Did you consider that the reversing gear on these engines was defective in any other way than you have stated ? No ; I think the reversing gear fairly good now, with the alterations that have been made. A catch has been put on to keep the screw from running backwards and forwards ; the new fulcrum pin has been put in. The gear is not so simple as it might have been, but that is a matter of design on the part of the maker. It might have been smaller and less expensive, but it is not bad gear. 3544. That has been done since the engines came here ? Oh, yes. 3515. Seeing that screw-reversing gear was specially mentioned in the specifications, the Grovernment should have sent drawings of what they meant by that. You think the specification is indefinite, do you not? Yes. Seeing thafwe had a special kind of re-versing gear put on the original engines of twelve years ago, and since that we have got more experience, we seem to be going backwards. The screw put on the original Baldwin engine is' the same as our standard, and I presume the drawing was sent for it, but in this instance there is a futhcr departui*:;. We talk of interchaugoability, but this is an instance of not carrying it out. 3546. The only reason you can give of these axles running hot is that they were manufactured of imperfect iron ? Yes ; they were made of imperfect iron, and there was a want of attention, and I think that if the Chief Mechanical Engineer had seen the axles he would have hesitated before they were allowed to go under the engine. I know that I should have hesitated. In fact I am surprised beyond measure that they are iron axles in this day. I thought they would be Otis steel for certain, but I think it was specified '■ iron or steel " — what does that mean ? 3547. Professor Warren.] Whichever way you like, I take it ? Yes. 3518. Mr. Hoyle.'] Taking into consideration the alterations made to the valve-gear and the reversing gear, and the breakage which, according to the evidence, have occurred, do you think that they ought to occur, or that alterations should have to be made so soon after the engines commenced to run ? No. 3549. Have you any experience of engines failing in a similar way ? No, not in a similar way ; but I have known of English engines failing in a worse way. The cylinders got loose on the frames, and many other grave defects. 3550. Professor Warren.'] I will give you the details of the cost of repairs to these very engines. The costs of all repairs have been as follows to twelve passenger engines : — I liave the honour to forward herewith information as asked for with reference to the cost of repairs of the Baldwin loeomotives recently supplied; I 118 BAlD'Wm JJOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIBENCE. Mr. I may say I have omitted the cost of repairs in connection with the replacements of the axles which were admittedly T. Midelton. defective, and the cost of which was charged against the Baldwin Company, as shown m statement already put in. 4,'iv?" TfiO'} TWELVE PASSENGER ENGINES. may, 1892. ^^^ ^^^^ ^^ repairs and alterations have been as follows, and statements are attached giving details- Total. Average per engine. £ s. d. £ a. d. A.-Alterations 113 9 10 9 9 2 B. — Shop repairs (excluding cost of repairs through „, „ - accident-£79 9s. lOdO 375 17 4 31 6 5 C. -Running repairs 481 2 7 ......... 40 111 With regard to the first item I may point out that the cost was principally for small extras which the makers could not be called upon to supply, and which we, in conformity with our practice, thought it well to provide— such as hxmg hand-rails in front of tenders, fixing coal board to tenders, shield plates for fire-room doors, "ames for departmental notices in cabs, part cost in connection with testing axles, and for slight alterations to brake-gear and shoes. With regard to the cost of shop repairs, the heaviest items were in connection with repairs necessitated through errors on the part of employes. i j. i a The running repairs, considering the work the engines have done (being seven months at work and runnmg 213,861 miles) are reasonable. 3551. Witness.] What is the total cost per engine since they have been here ? 3552. President.'] "We vfill add that up for you. The total cost is £970 10s.— that will make £80 17b. 6d. per engine. 3553. Witness.] Does that include the brass boxes on the bogie ? 3554. Professor Warren.] Do you consider that these alterations and repairs are excessive for the time these twelve engines have been running — about seven months, I think ? I think there must be a little error in the statistics. 3555. Tou think the cost is over or under— which ? It includes the reversing gear, the new axles, the boxes 3556. Professor Warren.] It includes everything except the axles. 3557. Witness.] How can that be a fair estimate of the cost of the engine when you except the cost of the axles. I think it is excessive. "What time and how many miles per engine did they run during these six or seven months. "We ought to have the running repairs, taking into consideration the work the engines have done during the seven months, together with the number of miles they have run. 3558. Professor Warren.] The mileage is 213,600 miles. 3559. Witness.] That for twelve engines is not very much. 3560. "Well, I will read the letter to you again ? I do not think it would alter my opinion if you did so. The data is somewhat misleading. I should want tO' know more before I formed an opinion as to whether the cost of repairs is excessive or not. I must know the mileage, the work, the time, the cost of running, repairs, &c. 3561. Tou say this report is not complete ? I do not say it is wilfully wrong, but it is not such a return as I would like ; it is incomplete. 3562. It is only a preliminary report ? Then it is utterly worthless if it is only a preliminary report. I do not think you should be guided by it. I should like to know the mileage, the time, and the cost of each engine. 3563. President^ It is over 17,800 miles for each engine ? "Well, that is given for seven months. Are you quite sure of the figures, sir ? 3564-5. Professor Warren.] Tes, that is right. That is equal to about twelve months work in England — twelve months work in England is from 18,000 to 20,000 miles per engine. But you do not care to answer that question ? No, I certainly do not care to answer without the complete data, and I should like to scan over the data myself before I did answer it. 3566. Professor Warren.] It is quite useless for me to aak you any questions about the twenty goods engines, then, because the data in regard to them is no more complete than it is in regard to passenger engines. i 3567. Mr. Soyle.] I think you ought to have the data laid before you with regard to the repairs done to these various engines after the whole of the evidence is over, because a number of engines are now undergoing repairs. Engine No. 456 is having a new set of wheels. Engine No. 447 is undergoing repairs also. Then, too, there are engines in the Penrith shop undergoing repairs as well ; and, if I might make a suggestion, I think a return should be supplied from the time-sheets, as that is the only way in which their completeness' can be ensured. 3568. Witness.] Some of these repairs might have been unnecessary, as I have hinted, with regard to the axles. I might say that repairs, so-called, were done to my engines when they arrived here first — the "Westinghouse Brake, with which they were fitted, was in the opinion of someone not sufficient, and, as a consequence, they chose to spend £50 or £60 per engine upon the addition of a hand-brake, and they have to this day allowed a similar engine (105) to run without a hand-brake. 8569. President.] "Well, if they have spent so much more money than was necessary upon the engines, so much the worse for the Railway Commissioners ; but, assuming it to have been properly spent, in other words, assuming the repairs to have been really necessary, are you now prepared to say that the amount involved in repairs was excessive ? No ; I cannot possibly answer the question now ; I must decHne to do so until I have seen the complete Ust of repairs. 3570. Professor Warren^ Mr. Midelton cannot answer the question — clearly, the return is incomplete. 3571. Witness.] Before I can answer the question, I must ask to be allowed to see a complete list of repairs taken from the time-sheet, the repair books, the running sheets, and the casualty book. 3572. Mr. Soyle.] Perhaps the best thing would be for me to put in writing exactly what I want these return sheets to comprise. 3573. Professor Warren.] I have no doubt, Mr. Hoyle, that the Commissioners thought this was a com- plete return, but, apparently, it is not. 3574. Mr. Hoyle.] I think that completes the list of questions that I want to put to Mr. Midelton. 8575. President (to Mr. Eehon).] Have you any questions to put to Mr. Midelton. 3576. Mr. Fehon.] I would like to ask one or two questions, not upon the expert evidence that he has given, but upon the facts. Mr. Midelton stated he was a member of the Master Mechanics' Association^ a society composed of locomotive superintendents from various parts of the world. To witness . Do you get their returns regularly, Mr. Midelton ? I do. 3577. Do you know that in June, 1891, they limited the weights on driving-wheels to certain weight ? I do, 3578. Do you remember what the weights were ? No, I do not. 3579. BAI/DWIlf lOCOMOTIVES INQtriET COMMISSION — MINTTTES OF ETIDETTCE. 119 3579. Tou are not aware that it was decided by them that they would allow a weight of 32,000 lb. on the Mr. driving-wheels ; that is, 14^ tons for rails under 60 lb. to the yard, and a weight of 86,000 lb., or 16 tons T- Midelton. 1 cwt. for rails over that weight ? I will look it up. I do not know from memory. 4m"^~1892 3580. Mr. Brown.} If that is so you would be guided by the judgment of such a society as that, I suppose ? ^^! I should, of course, but it is commonly known that the sleepers are put rather closer together in America than in England, and it all depends upon the sleepers and how close they are put together. That is a matter for Mr. Deane, the Engineer-in- Chief for Eailway Construction, and not for me. He should fix the load per wheel. 3581. Mr. Fehon.'] As you are a member of the Master Mechanics' Association, I thought you might know something about it ? The decision of weights upon the driving-wheels rests with the Permanent- way officer and not with the Locomotive officer. The Permanent-way officer is, as a rule, a gentleman who thinks he is superior to the person who designs the engines ; unfortunately, the Permanent-way officers and the Locomotive officers fight like demons at times on many railways in the world. There are some exceptions, however, in which they do work in harmony of the most complete, but it is not here. • 3582. I think it is here then, for we all work in harmony now ? It is the first time in your life then ; as a matter of fact, there is not a more disorganised and demoralised Locomotive Department under Heaven than that of New South "Wales. 3583. Tou say that, in the ten engines which you claim to be yours, the tyre is fitted in an improved way and the proper way, and that there are no other engines in the Department that are fitted properly ? That is so. I am supported by the Board of trade. 3584. That is to say that you pit your opinion against that of all other makers ? No, I do not ; you are trying now to show me in the light you always have done. Every Locomotive Superintendent ought to know that a tyre fastened with a stud is an improper way of doing it. I wish to be very emphatic and very clearly upon this matter, because I have been working for this railway for the last twelve years to try and provide the best possible things for it, and the late Commissioner will allow that I think. 3585. Tou have stated that Dr. Williams must have been wrong in giving the advice he did as to the weights of engines running upon the railways of New South Wales ? It is on record what I said. 3586. Are you not aware that the permanent-way of the New South Wales railways is much better than it was when Dr. Williams was here ? Tes, I think it is. 3587. Therefore, if it was capable of carrying the weight of a Baltimore and Ohio engine when Dr. Williams was here, it ought to be very much more capable of carrying it now ? It ought to be. 3588. Speaking of tyres, did you ever know a tyre come off an engine whilst you were on the railways of New South Wales ? I never said that a tyre did come off. 3589. WeU, at all events, a great deal of evidence has been given about what would happen if a tyre did come off and the advantages of providing against the calamity ? It does not follow that because you never have had a tyre come off you never will have one. The Jolimont accident in Victoria is an instance of what I mean. ' 3590. Tou say that it was always specified that there should be 10 tons per inch pressure on the wheels of our engines ; — did you specify that in regard to the ten engines that you ordered upon your own design ? No, I did not. I ought to have done it, but considering that the Commissioners hurried me beyond measure and beyond reason to get these drawings ready, I think it is too bad to chide me for any little oversight now. When I sat down coolly and calmly to draw my designs, I did not forget anything. In 1883 I specified this for the six suburban engines built by the Vulcan Company. Tou carefully avoid referring to that specification, which I also wrote myself. Dub's people knew that it should have been in the specifications, and the Baldwin Company knew it too. 3591. Professor Warren.} Tou admit that it was an oversight in your specifications ? I do. If I had noticed the omission I should certainly have it in, and for that matter my head draftsman might have called my attention to it, he knew my views. 3592. Mr. Fehon.} Did you specify the pressure on the driving-wheels in regard to the engines that were ordered from the Baldwin Company ? No ; considering that that specification also was written in three nights, with my own hand, in my own house, I do not think you could wonder that I did omit to include it. If you had had to do the same you would probably have made the same omission. That specification was written under great pressure to catch the maU, and, as I say, I wrote it in my own time after I had done my work at the office. 3593. Tou have stated that you consider that 15 tons 3 cwt. on the wheels on the Baldwin engine is too heavy for the roads of New "Soxxth Wales ? Tes ; with the sleepers 3 feet 1 inch apart, and iron rails at that— Murrurundi to Tamworth to vnt. 3594. And yet you admit that a crank engine with a weight of 16 tons 7 cwt. on the driving-wheel was alright. Tou allowed that to run H I did nothing of the kind. I objected to it. I protested against their being imported twice over in 1883 and in 1885. 3595. Well they did run ? Tes. 3596. Did they do any damage? Tes, they did, and I pointed it out to Mr. Eddy the first day he was here. I pointed it out to him in front of the Stores at Eveleigh, and he immediately sent for Mr. Cowdery about the state of the permanent way ; the joints were very low. 3597. Are you aware that those engines are running now on the main line ? The 351 class do you mean ? 3598. Tes ? I know they are running to Liverpool and Parramatta, but you have put an 80-lb. rail down to carry them. 3599. Some evidence was given just now with regard to the boss of a wheel breaking. Did you ever know the boss of a wheel to break on this road ? Tes ; I have known them to break. 3600. But not on this road ? No ; I do not say that 1 have. 3601. Do you know when it happened ? It was when I was serving my time. 3602. About forty years ago ? Tou consider that honorable, I suppose. Tou do not get much honour in this country at all events. 3603. Well, it must have been very many years ago ? It is about thirty years ago. 3604. Tou gave some evidence about the strength of draw-gear, although, I think, it was disallpwed by the President after it had been given ? Tes ; I hope you will go into that ; the weakest link in the drawr gear signifies the weakness of the entire train, and not the strength of the draw-gear on the engines. 3605. President.} But that is not what we have to inquire into. I should think that it is just what you , say. That the train itself cannot be any safer than the safety guaranteed by the weakest link in its draw-gear, but that is not what we have to inquire into. It is altogether outside the Commission that has been ^ent to us. 3606. 120 BALDWIK LOCOMOTITES IKQiriBY COMMISSION — MISUTES OP ETIDEITCE. Mr. 3606. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Midelton has been called as an expert, and the chief part of his evidence has been T. Midelton. gj^pj, ^^^^ ^^e standpoint of an expert, and not with regard to actnalfact. Although it is a very unpleasant , C""*"^ thiner to do, I think I shall have to ask him two or three questions as to his justification for taking the ^^' position of an expert in mechanical engineering. He has stated to the Commission what his career has been. 3607. Mr. Brown.] You had better ask him the question ? 3608. President:] Yes, you had better ask him the question, and if there is any objection to it we will then say that it ought not to be put. I understand that Mr. Fehon is saying this by way of apology for having to do something which he feels unpleasant. 3609. Witness.] He is doing it to damn me, if he'can. His motive is obvious. 3610. Mr. Fehon (to Witness).] You have stated to the Commission that you were in the employ of the Main Line Eailway Company, in Tasmania ? Yes. 3611. Were you not summarily dismissed from that road ? No. 3612. Mr. Hoyle.] I have been called up several times in the course of my examination of witnesses for irrelevancy, and I now ask you, Mr. President, whether Mr. Fehon is in order in putting such a question as this to the witness? It has nothing to do with the Baldwin engine, and can answer no useful purpose. It is also cowardly. 3613. President.] You, Mr. Hoyle, have been so far, as it were, examining your own witnesses. Although you have called a great many employees of the New South Wales Eailways, they have really been your witnesses. . Now, you call a witness who is not employed upon the New South Wales Eailways, and amongst other things his credibility is called into question. This is done for the purpose of showing, if it can be shown, that although he professes to be a very skilful expert, and a very competent engineer, and so on, still various people have at different times found fault with him. These questions are being put to him with the object of affecting his credibility as an expert, and his credibility generally. You will have the same opportunity when the Commissioners begin their case. If some witness called by them says that the Baldwin engines are perfect machines, you will have a similar opportunity of saying to him with the object of affecting his credibility, " Has not such and such a thing happened to you," or, at all events, of showing that whatever the witness may think of himself, other people do not think he is such a great expert as he believes he is. 3614. Mr. Hoyle.] My objection is that these questions have nothing to do with the Baldwin engine inquiry. I might have asked Mr. Thow what he did in South Australia when he was in the witness-box. 3615. "President.] But Mr. Thow was your own witness, and you could not cross-examine him. If the Eailway Commissioners call Mr. Thow you will be at perfect liberty to ask him that question. When you are cross-examining a witness you can always question his credibility — his credibility as to whether he is speaking the truth, or as to whether he knows what he is talking about. 3616. Mr. Hoyle.] If that is allowed I can see no end to the inquiry. I must claim, under these circum- stances, to ask Mr. Midelton all that he has done in the Locomotive Department, and I therefore think that for every reason — to save the personal feeling of witnesses, as well as to keep the inquiry to the subject of the Baldwin engines — it is better that such questions should not be put. 3617. President.] Mr. Midelton is here as an expert, Mr. Hoyle, and he is here as your witness. You cannot therefore ask him whether he has done this and that, and the other. His skill as an expert is believed in the first instance. He says that he is a member of such and such a society, and all that is assumed until in the course of cross-examination questions are put with the object of discrediting the value of his evidence as an expert, and he is asked by Mr. Fehon whether such and such a thing has not happened to him. That is a perfectly fair question in the course of cross-examination. You in your turn will have a right to obtain from him an explanation as to why that happened to him. Personally, I am sorry that the question has to be put, but if it is pressed I do not see that 1 can prevent it. Supposing that a person gets into the witness-box as an expert in surgery, and he says, "I am a member of the Eoyal College of Surgeons ; I have had thirty years practice, and this is my opinion of the case." In the course of cross-examination it is perfectly fair to attempt to prove that, although he has been all that he says he has been, he had yet made some important mistake in diagnosis, and that by reason of that mistake Ije had been dismissed or disrated by some board or body charged with the duty of looking after the public health. It all goes to affect his credibility. I am very sorry that it is necessary to press this question, and I hope Mr. Fehon will take this intimation not to go any further than he thinks absolutely necessary with this line of cross-examination. 3618. Mr. Hoyle.] Very well, Mr. President, if this is done I shall claim my right to cross-examine in this way other witnesses who are brought forward as experts. 3619. President.] Very well, Mr. Hoyle, you will claim your right, I cannot help that ; but I am not going to be deterred by anything you say from ruling in this matter as I think proper. I will rule upon the questions that you may wish to ask in the course of cross-examination as occasion arises. If this was Mr. Fehon's own witness I should not allow him to put that question under any circumstances, and I hope now he will not go any further than is necessary. 3620. Witness^] Mr, President, all I ask is this : If Mr. Fehon is going to test me, that he may do so to his heart's content, and I hope that the Press will record all that is said on both sides, and that I shall have fair play. I desire no more. 3621. President.] I do not suppose that Mr. Fehon would have any desire to do anything that is not fair, and if he did it will be my duty to .prevent him. (To Mr. Fehon) What do you want to ask the witness ? 3622. Mr. Fehon.] I ask whether Mr. Midelton was not summarily dismissed by the Main Line Eailway Company of Tasmania, and he says no. I take his answer. 3623. Witness.] My answer is no. Mr. Fehon's object is obvious. I was sent out from England by a Board of Directors to do a certain thing and I did that thing, but in doing my duty in Tasmania I dis- pleased my superior, Mr. C. H. Grrant, a friend of this gentleman's (Mr. Fehon), and one who has hired him as a business man to arbitrate between'the Government's contention and his own. 3624. Mr Fehon-] He is speaking of a case in which I was an arbitrator. 3625. Witness.] Exactly. Mr. Grant and Mr. Fehon are friends, and Mr. G-rant is the General Manager of the Tasmanian Main Line Eailway — at least he was — but he has gone too now. Mr. Grant was general manager, and I had two years with him, and I carried out what I was sent" out to do by the Board of Directors. Mr. Grant was annoyed to see me succeed, and tried to drive me out of the service. Indeed, he called me up and did what this gentleman has learned from him to do. He said go, and I wtmt next morning ; but Mr. Grant paid me £200 for his trouble, and Mr. Fehon may question me on that if he likes. ' 3626. BALDT^IX LOCOMOTIVES INQriRY COMillSSIOJr-^JIIKUTES OF EVIDEIS'CE. 121 » 3626. Mr. Fehon.] No, I do not want to do that. ^i'- 3627. WHness.] You can ask me any question you like ; I am quite prepared to go any length into my •'•• ■'*^"J^"<'»'- career that you think fit. 4^m^l^^2 3628. Mr. Fe'hon.'] Mr. Midelton has stated that he had the full confidence of the old Commissioner, Mr. •'' Groodchap. (To "Witness) : Is not that so ? I have every reason to believe that I had ; but if Mr. Good- chap listened to every little tale from other people, no doubt he would have had ample cause for dis- pleasure. 3629. Mr. Hoyle.] I will call Mr. Goodchap himself. 3630. Mr. Fehon.] I have no wish to injure Mr. Midelton. I simply wish to explain to the Commission the value of his evidence as an expert, and I wish to ask him a question affecting his relation with Mr. Goodchap. 3631. Fresicfent.] I can only decide as to the admissibility of the question that is really put through the Commission after you have stated what it is. 3632. Mr. Fehon.'] But my question would be very unpleasant. 3638. Mr. Brown.'] I think you had better put it ; as you have gone so far, it leaves an unwholesome feeling behind unless you ask the question. 3634. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Midelton may remember some trouble there was about some State carriages for the Governor ? Yes ; perfectly well. 3635. Perhaps he might remember a portion of Mr. Goodchap's minute. It is rather a long one ; I will read only a portion of it : — " Mr. Midelton has shown himself to be so self-willed and incompetent in these matters that I must recommend that he be called upon to show cause why he should not be removed from the position of Locomotive Overseer. Eegard for the public safety compels me to make this recom- mendation." 3636. President.] I do not know that you have any right to ask that. Ton have no right to get indirectly what Mr. Goodchap's views were. We have nothing to do with Mr. Goodchap's visw. Tou can get the mere facts of whether he was disrated, found fault with, or criticised by Mr. Goodchap, but you cannot get from any minute what Mr. Goodchap's opinion about Mr. Midelton was. In order to do that it will be necessary to call Mr. Goodchap himself. 3637. Mr. Fehon (to Witness) .] Are you aware that Mr. G oodchap recommended your removal from the service ? I may say that that was in 1885, and I suffered fourteen months' suspension. Tes ; and in justice to Mr. Goodchap I beg to say that he saw his error, and subsequently recommended me for the position of Locomotive Engineer three years afterwards. 3638. Mr. Soyle.] These accusations are cowardly, very cowardly, and I must protest against tliem. 3639. Mr. Fehon.] I must protest against Mr. Hoyle making any such remark. I have said already that these questions are being put for the purpose of explaining to the Board, to whom Mr. Midelton may be a perfect stranger, the value of his expert evidence. 3640. Professor Warren.] But how does that injure his credibility as an expert ? You must remember that he vras taken back again. 3641. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Midelton has stated that he is not aware why he had left the service of the Com- missioners. Is not that so, Mr. Midelton ? 3642. Wiiness.] I am aware of this: I was summoned before you, the Chief Commissioner, and Mr. Oliver; and the Chief Commissioner told me abruptly, while talking about the business of the depart- ment, that I had not shown the qualifications necessary for the reorganisation of the department, and then I was summarily dismissed. 3643. President.] Was that after your reappointment upon Mr. Goodchap's recommendation ? Yes ; about five months after. 3644. It was in Mr. Goodchap's regime that you went back again ? Yes, after he had suspended me in 1885. He recommended me subsequently in 1888. Gave me the highest recommendation for the position then held by Mr. Scott (my accuser), and I then served five months under him. Previous to that I had been two and a-half years under him as Superintendent of Tramway Boiling Stock. I served under these gentlemen (the Commissioners) for five months also, and I was told without explanation that I was not any good. 3645. Professor Warren.] When were you suspended ? In August, 1885. In 1889 I was dismissed ; kicked out like a dog. 3645i. At all events, at that time you were assistant to Mr. Scott. Then you came back to the department upon Mr. Lyne's recommendation, approved of by the Executive Council, to occupy a better position, so far as salary was concerned, in connection with the Tramways than you occupied before, and Mr. Goodchap, who had formerly recommended your suspension, recommended you for the higher position. It is only fair that both sides of the case should be stated? Mr. Goodchap, like a man, saw his mistake and the error he had been led into. 3646. Professor Warren.]' Well, he proved it by recommending you. 3647. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you not receive a letter from Mr. Goodchap, congratulating you upon the manner in which you had discharged your duties during Mr. Scott's absence ? Yes, and the Government gave me a bonus of £100 in addition. 3648. Mr. Hoyle.] Mr. Price Williams has made a report upon the railways of this colony. 3649. President.] How can that be admitted. You cannot read Mr. Price Williams' report as evidence, unless the Eailway Commissioners themselves like to admit it. 3650. Mr. Fehon.] We do not deny that Mr. Price Williams wrote that report. 3651. President.] Very well, you may read it. 3652. Mr. Hoyle.] The report says : "" The double line between Kowcastle and West Maitland, which I carefully examined, I found to be in a very detective condition, both as regards rails, sleepers, fastenings, *c., and maintenance. This portion of the line was opened in 1857 to 1858, thirty-one years since." 3653. President.] Do the Baldwin engines run over that portion of the line? 3654. Mr. Hoyle.] They have run there until recently. 3655. President.] Between Newcastle ard East Maitland or between Newcastle and West Maitland ? 3656. Mr. Hoyle.] The report refers to the line between Newcastle and AYest Mkitland. 3657. President^ And do the Baldwin engines run over it ? 3658. Mr. Brown.] One or two have run over it, I believe, but not with passengers. 3659. Mr. Hoyle.] The contention has been that engines have been employed in the service with greater weight on the driving-wheels than these Baldwin engines, an(J, as those engines have run over this road, I 6— Q want 122 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES lETQUIEY COMMISSION — MIITUTES OF EVIDENCE. _ J^'- want to show what the result of the greater weight upon the line has been. The report continues : " This X^^mddton. portion of the line was opened in 1857 to 1858, thirty-one years since, and according to Mr. Cowdery's ^'^visqa statement, showing the age of the permanent-wav, there are still 11| miles of the original iron-rails m y, loyz. ^j^g ^^^^ ^^^ ironbark sleepers here or elsewhere have been its salvation ; although many of them were, I observed, rather crushed, there is still a good deal of life in some of them. Having regard to the heavy character of the traffic on this Hue, I would advice that the whole Hi miles be entirely removed. I gather from Mr. Cowdery's tabular statement that there are in addition 33 miles of the Great jSTorthernline, where the age of the iron rails varies from twenty-four to twenty-eight years, and 71 miles more from sixteen to nineteen years old ; so that, altogether, there are 115| miles of rails on the line, whose age at present exceeds sixteen vears. This mileage corresponds very closely with that between Newcastle and Murrurundi, 119 miles, which was opened to the latter place in April, 1872, just seventeen years since." 3660. President.'] Do the Baldwin engines run over this line. If the Eailway Commissioners admit the report, you have got a right to read it, but if the Baldwin engines do not run on this line, what good can it do? 3661. Mr. lloyle.] It will show what has boon tlie effect of a heavier engine than the ordinary Baldwin engine where it has been allowed to. ruu. I have almost finished with the report. In conclusion, Mr. Price Williams says " Having regard to these facts I consider that. the immediate renewal of the 5 miles of this permanent rail between Newcastle and West Maitland, 2\ miles between Branxton and Blandford, and 1 mile between Blandford and Werns, laid down in 1872, is the least that should be done with the view to restoring the permanent-way on these portions of the main line as quickly as possible to a sound condition." 3662. Mr. Felion.] The Baldwin engines were not in existence when Mr. Price Williams wrote that report. 3663. Mr. Iloyle.] I am speaking of the Tank engines as referred to by Mr. Midelton just now as carry- ing over 16 tons on their driving-wheels. 3661;. Witness.] And the A'ulcan engines to". 3665. President.'] Of course the report will be put in. We know the conditions under which it was made. 3666. Professor Warren (to Mr. Fehon).] Do you want to ask Mr. Midelton any further questions. 3667. Mr. Pekon.] No, I do not. 3668. Mr. Brown.] There has been such a lot s.nid in the newspapers and elsewhere about the putty that was found in the spokes of the wheels of the new Baldwin engines that I should like you to refer to it in your evidence ? I do not think that anything can be made of the fact that there is a little putty in the wheels, it is what anybody would do to make a smooth surface for painting. 3669. President.'] And your contention is really this. Tou say as an expert that in your opinion the engines are too heavy for the roads ? I do, and yet not heavy enough for their cylinders. 3670. But if the road were suitable for the engines you would not say that much was wrong with them? Certainly. 3671. What you say, boiled down, if I may use the expression, comes to this : granted that the road is good enough, the engines themselves are all right? Well, in answer to that I beg to state that a great deal has been made in the Press and by the Commissioners and Premier of the Colony about the inter- changeability of the various parts of engines, and the necessity for uniformity, amongst the engines instead of the large number of types of engines such as we have at present. That is what I have been striving to bring about for the last twelve years and yet since the Commissioners came into office they have actually increased the number of types by the addition of these Baldwin engines and others from 42 to 49. 3672. President.] We have nothing to do with that. If in your opinion Ihe permaneat-way were strong enough you would not have much objection to the engines ? If there were 80-lb. rails throughout the Colony I should say that we do not want Baldwin engines of that weight ; we want Baldwin engines of a lighter weight. 3673. President.] But come to my question. Suppose the permanent-way were strong enough, what do you think about the engines. Do you see anything wrong with them ? No, I cannot say that I do ; but they are not the type of engine that I should prefer. 3674. President.] No, exactly ; but I understand you to say that you do not see anything wrong with tliem. Joshua liushworth, being sworn in and examined, said : — Mr. 3675. I have been over thirty years a ganger on the railway line. J. Rushworfch. 3676. President?^ In this Colony ? Yes ; at least, it is over thirty years since I started first, and about 'r!'"'^"^'^^ six years since I left that particular work. 4 May, 1892. ^Qftj rp},gjj yo^ r^^^. ^q^ jjo^y jq ^jjg Eailway service ? Not now. 3678. Were you a ganger all that time ? Yes, for the biggest part of it. 3679. Mr. itoyle.] You were a ganger on the line for about thirty years ? Yes. 3680. In the service of the New South Wales Government? Yes; but not a ganger all that time ; I mean that it is about thirty years since I came here first. My first Work here was to relay a piece of road on the Duck Eiver line. ' 3681. Were you at Tarana when the recent railway accident occurred ? I was. 3682. Were you on the scene of the accident soon afterwards ? Yes, about three-quarters of an hour afterwards. 3683. Did you see the rails that were broken ? Yes. 3684. Did you see any other bent rails ? I saw one bent in that position (bending his arm) ; it was about 1 foot in the belly from being straight. 3685. Was that in the road ; — did it form part of the permanent-way ? Yes ; it formed a part of the permanent- way. 3686. You have had a lot of experience in lifting roads, have you not? Yes, I have. 3687. Have you examined the road between Tarana and the scene of the accident? Not since the accident occurred. 3688. Have vou ever been on that part of the road ? Yes. 3689. BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES llfQTJIKr COMillSSIOX — MIUUTES 03? ETIDENCE. 123 3689. When was that ? About twelve niGnths -since 1 was along the road, and also a week before the Mr. accident happened. On that occasion I was out shooting, and walked along a portion of the line down J-KuBhworth. as far as the creek. A^M^^^^i 3690. Would you know from the appearance of the road whether it had been recently lifted ? Tes. '' 3691. Do you think it had been recently lifted ? If it had not been recently lifted it had been recently ballasted. ■3692. Can you say ^yhat state the road is in about there at the present time ? Well, from what I saw of it, I should not say it was in a very good state of repair. The sleepers still keep shifting out of their regular place ; they vary a very great deal ; some of them are very little more than 11 inches from the joints, and others are nearly 2 feet from the joints. They naturally work loose, and if they are not put back again the bearings of the road will not keep equal. Instead of all the sleepers being 2 feet 9 inches apart, there are some sleepers over 3 feet apart. 3693. You mean that the chairs upon which the sleepers are fixed are in some cases 3 feet apart? Tes. 3694. Did you see on that road in any part of it that the rails had been crushed ? Oh, there are a good many rails crushed. 3695. President.] Is a crushed rail the same thing as a spread rail? Tes; it means spread out on either side. 3696. Mr. Royle.] In examining the road, did you see any rails that had been turned, — did you see any rails that had been worn by running on one side, and then turned and run upon the other side? Tes; a good many. 3697. Did any of them show evidence that they had been bulged ? Some of them had been bulged before they were turned. 3698. That is to say, the bulged side is now down? There is a bulged side uppermost and also a bulged side down. 3699. Trom your experience as a ganger, would you consider that that weakened the rails? Tes; it does. 3700. Yiom. what you know of an iron rail, and the action of cold weather upon it, do you consider it safe for a Baldwin engine to run over the road in its present condition? No, I do not; nor for any heavy engine to run over it either. 3701. President.'] What do you call a heavy engine ? An engine of 60 or 70 tons. 3702. Is it not safe for an engine of 60 tons to rim over that portion of the line? No; I do not thinlc it is safe. 3703. Mr. Hoyle.} Were any of the sleepers bad ? Tes, there are plenty of places where I could go and lift the rail — places where the spikes would draw out of the wood and leave the sleepers below. The chairs have worked that much with the oscillation of the engines that you could lift the spikes out. 3704. Professor Warren.'] Tou are alluding to the spikes that are in the chair, I suppose? Tes, to keep the rail firm. 3705. If the key was in the rail, could you then lift it ? The chair would come up with the rail, but the sleeper would be left in the ballast because of the spikes having no hold. 3706. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you find any other defects in the road, such as keys being out, and so on? Oh, there are keys out. The Sunday before the accident I walked down to the quarries, and saw a good many keys out, but it is not an unusual thing to find that. The ballast is the greatest thing for keeping the keys in. 3707. Then if the road were well ballasted the sleepers ought to stop ih their places ? Well, if even the key was in, the sleeper would naturally work. 3708. Do you know what length there is for each gang to look after ? I think it is about 6^ miles. 3709. And how many men aie there on that gang ? About five. 3710. Do you consider that, with these heavy Baldwin engines going over the road as they do, it is enough to have five men and a ganger in order to keep it in repair ? 3711. Mr. Brown.] Is that not a question of administration ? 3712. President.] I was going to say before Mr. Brown spoke that, if the road is not properly looked after, that would be a matter of negligence — I do not say that it is not properly looked after — I know nothing at all about tliat ; — but even supposing you proved that it was not properly looked after, and in that respect the Eailway Commissioners were guilty of negligence, how would it prove that the engines were not suited to the permanent-way of the country, because the engines are supposed to be suitable for the permanent-way, provided that it is kept in order. If you say that the permanent-way is kept in order, and still that the engines are too heavy for it, and would crush it by reason of their weight, that is to the point clearly enough ; but how can you show that by calling evidence to demonstrate that a certain length of line has been neglected? 3713. Mr. Hoyle.] I am not calling this evidence with any intention of showing neglect on the part of the Commissioners. I am merely calling it for the purpose of showing that this line is not fit for these heavy engines to run over. 3714. President.] But it would not be fit for any engine to run over if it is in the condition that has been described by the witness. I imagine that a permanent-way requires hourly, or very nearly hourly, attention ; and if the necessary attention has not been given to it, and as a consequence the permanent- way has got into disrepair and would be dangerous for the Baldwin engines to run upon, you cannot say that therefore the Baldwin engines are unsuitable for the permanent- way of the Colony. 3715. Mr. Hoyle (to Witness).] Do you know the weight of the Baldwin engines? No._ 3716. Well, the Baldwin passenger engine weighs 92. tons, and the Baldwin consolidation engine and tender weigh"97 tons ; — do you think that an engine and tender of that weight would have a tendency to knock the road about ? Certainly, particularly in a bend coming out of a straight on to a curve, because in going on to a curve the engine always strikes the rail heavily, and the heavier the engine the more strain there is on the rail. 3717. Do you think then that these heavy engines continually .passing over the road have injured it, and caused these sleepers to work ? Undoubtedly, to a certain extent. Of course, a heavy engine will cause it to happen more than a light engine would, and the longer it runs on it the more liable the sleepers will be to shift, particularly at the beginning or end of a curve. The oscillation in the case of the Baldwin engines is greater than it would be in the case of lighter engines. 8718. Professor Warren.] That is from your own observation ? Tes. 3719. Tou say that the oscillation is greater ? Tes ; you can see it is greater on entering a curve than on a straight. 3720. 124 BALDWIN LOCOaiOTITES IXQUIET COIIMISSION— MIXTTTES 6r ETIDE^-CE. Mr. 3720. Do you say that the Baldwin engines oscillate more than any other engines ? I do not say that J.RuihwQriL. ^]^ oscillate more, but I say that the weight of the oscillation is greater. _ 4 m"^2 3721. President.-] Of course, we all know that if two things oscillate the heavier one will do the more ^' damage, if damage is done by oscillation. I suppose that is what he means. 3722. Professor Warren.-] He said that the Baldwin engines oscillated more than other engines. 3723. TFitness.! No ; only I say that being heavier it is harder for the oscillation to stop. 8724. Mr. Hoyle (to Witness) .] Have you worked much about the mountains m your time . ^ o, i Have 3725. In vour experience on the railway has it been anything like a common occurrence for rails to break ? bh, it is a common occurrence for rails to break. I have known tho old Barlow ml *» breafe and it is one of the toughest rails that was ever made. It is a hollow rail. They were the first rails laid betwe3n Parramatta and Sydney. i -o j.i. j. o -nt^ t ■v,o-.,q 3726. Do you know any other part of the road near Tarana— I mean towards Bathurst .-' JNo, X nave never been working at it, though I have walked over different parts of it. - +1, r 3727. But did you examine the road recently ? Well, of course a man who has been so long on the line cannot shut his eyes as he walks along. If he sees a defect he must notice it. , , 3728. And from your experience would you say from walking along the road that there are many defects in it ? Yes, a great many. 3729. Can you describe to the Commission what they are ? -i t, i. t 3730. President.-] Pardon me, Mr. Hoyle ; I do not wish to interrupt you unnecessarily, but i hardly see what all this is leading to. If it helps your case, then by all means bring out the evidence that you are endeavouring to get at ; but do not pursue it unnecessarily, for it is a matter that must necessarily be inquired into presently, because I suppose there are sure to be some actions arising out ot this accident, and it is not right that the question should be prejudged in any way. Personally, i do not see how it can help us in arriving at our decision. Supposing, for the sake of argument, a part ot the road had been left unattended to, that would not show that the engines were not suitable to the permanent-way. It will only help us if you can show that the road, being in a fair state of repair, it has been crushed and spread by the Baldwin engines. 3731. Mr. Hoi/le.] Well, I want to show that the Baldwin engines are knocking the roa,d about. I have been told that the road has been reliftad within the last four months, and, if that is so, it ought to be in good condition now. I contend that if the road has got out of repair within so short a time it is the Baldwin engines that are doing the damage. 3732. President.] Verv well. 3733. Mr. Hoyle (to Witness).] Will vou describe to the Commission in what condition you saw the road between Bathurst and Tarana ? We'll, that portion of the road has been running a long time without being relifted, and, of course, when a road has been running a long time it gets bad ; the rails spread and the sleepers work, but I do not say that it is in a dangerous condition. 3734. Mr. Brown.] You would say it was safe enough for ordinary trafi&c? Yes. 3735. Mr. Hoiile.] If the road was lifted within four months and reballasted, as it evidently has been, do, you consider that the ordinary traffic— such traffic as it had been subjected to before the Baldwin engines arrived— would have lef b it in a better state of repair than it is at present ? With the ordinary traffic it is my opinion that the road would have been in a better state of repair. 3736. Professor -Warren.] And you think that the Baldwin engines have knocked the road out of line? Yes, particularly going on to the curve. 3737. Entering a curve and leaving a curve ? Yes. 3738. Mr. Brouon.] I suppose you have turned a bulged rail yourself when you have been fettling? Ihave. 3739. It is not an uncommon thing to do when you are short of rails, is it ? Well, when a rail is bulged out one side you turn it to the other side. 3740. Professor TVarren^ Do you mean when a rail is bulged on the face ? Yes, on the face. 3741. Will you show us upon these rails exactly what you mean ? (Witness proceeded to explain by the aid of some rails brought from the scene of the late accident the purport of his answer.) 3742. Mr. Brown.] To Mr. Pehon: Have you had that flaw in the rails microscopically examined? 3743. Mr. FeJion^] No, we have not. 3744. I would have as careful an examination of it as you can, and bring as much expert evidence before us as you can. 3745. The Commissioners have appointed a Board of experts to investigate the matter. 3746. That is all very well, but that will not help us to arrive at our decision, we want as much expert evidence as you can bring. 3747. Mr. Oloyle (to Witness).] This is the rail that broke when the train was going over it, can you tell us whether that is a turned rail ? Yes, it is ; evidently this rail had been worn out on one side and turned. 3748. You have seen these two rails, and I will not ask you to swear, but will only ask you to give your opinion upon this matter, because at the time of an accident like the recent accident at Tarana, a man may be a little bit excited, but do you think there was any bent rail besides these two ? Yes, I am sure there was. 3749. And it was after the accident occurred that you saw it? Yes, by the appearance of the raill should say that after the carriages got off the line they bent it. 3750. Mr. Brown.] I do not quite follow you ? Supposing the carriages got off the line here, they bent a second rail there ? 3751. Mr. Hoyle.] There is a rail that was bent in the accident that has not been produced here at all. 3752. Mr. Pehon.] Very often there will be a dozen rails bent in an accident ? Oh yes, it is quite a common occurrence if a train gets off the road that it will smash the chairs and bend the rails one after another. 3753. Do you consider that the road as you have seen it has the sleepers the proper distance apart? Not for those engines ; the sleepers are too far apart for those engines. 3754. What distance apart do you think they ought to be ? ITor those engines they ought to be more than 3755. I want to ask you first of all how far ought the sleepers to be apart on a carve, and then I want you to tell me how far they ought to be apart on a straight ? They ought not to be more than 2 ft. 4 in. apart on a curve. ' 3756. BALDWIIf lOCOMOTITES IH QUIET COMMISSIOIf — MINUTES OF ETIDSlfCE. 125 3756. From centre to centre you mean ? Tes ; and about 2 ft. 10 in. apart on a straight. Mr. 3757. Mr. Broim.'] And what are these sleepers in the immediate vicinity of where this accident took J-Bushworth. place. Have jrou any evidence on that point ? Well some of them are over 3 ft. apart. 4 MT^'llsga 3758. That is from centre to centre ? Yes. ^^' 3759. Mr. Hoyle.'] I measured some myself that were 2 ft. 3 in. apart, others that were 2 ft. 8 in., and so on. They were different distances. 3760. Professor Warren.'] You might give evidence yourself on that point, Mr. Hoyle. 3761. Mr. Brown (to "Witness).] What are the gangers doing not to put them back in their places. That is what they do when they go along the line ? They put them to their uniform distances, and often they shift them to a uniform distance when lifting the road. 3702. Mr. Soyle.] How much ballast is there from the sleepers to the foundation ? I never sank down to see, but if it is on a level from the grip to the curbstone the ballast must be somewhere about 2 ft. deep. 3763. You have not measured it, however, and do not know how much there is ? No. 376i. Professor Warren.] From your experience as a ganger, you say that the road is knocked about by the Baldwin engines more than by other engines ? That is my opinion. 3765. I take it that you have seen the Baldwin engines running on the permanent way ? I have seen the Baldwin engines running and I have seen the others running, and my e.-cperience is that the Baldwin engines knock the road about more than the light engines do. 3766. Have you been on the Tarana section very long ? No ; I was only there for a week or a fortnight on a shooting excursion. I was up there enjoying my holidays. 3767. I only ask you the question because you have seen the other engines go over the line, and you know what you have to do to the permanent way by way of driving in keys and seeing that everything is right? Yes. 3768. And you say that the Baldwin engines damage the permanent way more than the old engines ? Yes. 3769. Mr. Brotvn.] In bending a rail for the purpose of a curve, is it likely to crack it or make a flaw in it, or do anything else to damage the rail? I have seen rails break in two when we have been making a curve. 3770. And is that more likely to occur in old rails than in new ones ? It depends on the material on the rail. An old rail will often curve better than a new one. 3771. And not be likely to give signs of breaking ? If, when you were curving a rail with a hammer, there was the least flaw in it, you would find it out under the hammer. 8772. But would that flaw be liable to disclose itself after you had finished with it and trains had been running over it for a while ? No ; if it was injured at all, it would show when we were hammering it. 3773. 3fr. Brown (to Mr. Fehon).] Would you like to ask the witness any question? 3774. Mr. FeJion.] I would like to ask a few questions. (To Witnes.s) : Arc you now in the employ of the Eailway Commissioners ? No, sir. 3775. When did you leave ? Six year.s last Easter ? 3776! And what do you know about the Baldwin engines, seeing that they have been here only a few months ? Well, 1 have seen them running. 3777. However, you know nothing about them practically. You have not worked on the road since Ihey have been here ? No, I have not, but I have seven or eight year^' experience on the line at home before I came to this country, and if I am standing on the road whilst the. engine is passing, I know how it is knocking the road about. I have got experience enough for that. 3778. Speaking about the crushed end of rails, as you have had experience at home as well as in the colonies, you can tell whether it is a common thing or an uncommon thing for the end of rails to bo crushed ? It is a very common thing. 3779. You spoke about the weight of the engines being too great for the permanent way— do you know how the weight of an engine is calculated in relation to the strength of the permanent way? The weight on the wheel. 3780. Yes ? I do not know. 3781. But you know that it is calculated on the wheels ? Ye.^. 3782. Do you know the heaviest weight on the wheels of the Baldwin engine ? No. 3783. Weil, how can you say that those engines are too heavy for the road ? It is not the down weight that tells so much as the oscillation. 3784. Then you think the down weight is all right ? ITo, I do not. 3785. But if you do not know the weight how can you say that it is too great ? Because the oscillation is so great it is liable to move the road. 3786. I am not speaking about the moving of the road. What is your opinion as to the strength of the road to bear the weight on the driving-wheel. B at as a matter of fact you say you do not know the weight on the driving-wheels, and therefore perhaps it is hardly worth while asking you a question on the subject. You say that it is the ballast that holds the keys in ? Yes, very largely. "3787. How do you make that out ? Because most of the keys are made in the colony, and are not down long before you can shift them about with your hands. 3788. Where does the ballast cover the keys ? In many places. 3789. As a matter of fact, are not the keys exposed to sight ? Very often they are. 3790. Mr. Brown.'] Is not a man engaged every morning in hitting them with a hammer, to see they are all right? Yes. 3791. And if they are covered with ballast how can he do that ? He can see the heads. 3792. Mr. Fehon.] Which would do the least harm to the permanent way— two lighter engines coupled on to a train or one heavier engine ? One heavy one. 3793. You do not know anything about the Baldwin engines as to the way they are made to suit the permanent way of the Colony ? The only thing that I know about them is from looking at them ; the frame is all built in one piece, there is no give in them. 8794. You say that the sleepers are not sufficiently close together on the curves ? No. 3795. What is the rule about sleepering a curve ? Well, on a curve they put eight sleepers under a 21-foot rail, and nine if it is a curve of 8 chains radius. 3796. What do they do if it is a straight road ? They put seven sleepers then. 3797. Suppose it is anything under a 15-chaiu curve do they not put two extra sleepers ? No. 3798. At all events you say that you put in two extra sleepers in an 8-chain curve ? Yes, 3799. And what distance does that bring them ? About 2 feet 9 inches apart. 3S0O. '126 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTTIUT COMMISSION— MINrTES OF ETIDENCE. Mr. 3800. Mr. Hoyle.] We understood you to say that it was the sleeper being well packed— kept rigid— J.Eushwoith. tij^t kept the keys in ? Tes ; that is it. ^ , , o , -d • ^ 4'm^'"^2 ^^^^- ^^y ^ ^^^ *^^* *^ ^^°*i°^ °* *^® ''^^^ ^'^'^ P^^^ °^ Liberty's Creek Bridge and Duck s Creek Bridge ^' ■ may be produced. , 3802. Professor Warren.] On that subject I take it that Mr. Foxlee will gire evidence from the returns that he gave me. I have a number of questions to ask him, and possibly it may be necessary to ask him for plans and designs of other bridges. As an evidence of the interest taken in this matter from outside, L may say that I had a letter from a member of the Bridges Commission to-day— a man in a high position— who knew that I was aware of certain things that he was also aware of, and who thought it very necessary that I should look into these matters. It may be necessary for me to call for these plans and designs, and if it is, I shall do so, but I shall not do anything in that way that does not appear necessary. 3803. Mr. Sot/le.] Do you think it would be a good thing for us to have any of the plans of the bridges ? 3803i. Professor Warren.] I shall wait until after Mr. Toxlee's examination before I make up my mmd. Necessarily, anything that I can do must be done superficially ; it would take too long to go into these matters fully. All I care about is whether the bridges are strong enough, and Mr. Poxlee's calculations so far^ I may say, show that they are strong enough. TRUBSBAY, 5 MAY, 1892. [The Commission met in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's OJ^ce, at 2'30 o'clock.] ^xtsmt:— P. E. ROGEES, Q.C., President. Pkofessoe WAEEEN, M.I.C.E. | Alexandee BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P, Henry Joseph Moses, being sworn, said : — Mr. 3804. I am an engine-driver in the New South "Wales Eailway Service ; I was driver of the western mail- H. J. Moses, ^p^^jj ijjg^^ jg£^ gyjney j^st Tuesday week. There was an accident to that train at a place on the line two fi'M~i8Q2 ™-'^^® ^^^ a-half this side of Tarana. 5 May, i»a/. ggQg^ j^^ Hoyle.] Previous to the examination of the witness, I wish to take this opportunity— and in doing so, I think I may speak, not only for myself, but for the public— to congratulate Driver Moses on the splendid manner in which he carried out his duties on the night of the accident. The forethought, care, and discretion he exercised, and the meritorious conduct he displayed on that occasion deserve for him not only the gratitude of the people of Sydney, but of the Colony generally, and I think it is only fair to state here what is the general feeling with regard to Driver Moses' conduct on that occasion. I have heard a great number of people speak about it, and I not only congratulate Driver Moses myself upon the splendid service he has rendered, but also on behalf of many others who have expressed to me their appreciation of them. 3806. Mr. Fehon.] The Eailway Commissioners perfectly recognise all that Mr. Hoyle has said, and have recognised the services of Driver Moses in a substantial manner. 3807. President (to Witness).] I ata sure it must be very gratifying for you to hear what has been said. 3808. Mr. Hoyle.] How long have you been driving the Baldwin engine? I have been driving these engines for three months. The number of mine is 452. That is the engine I have been driving since the 31st January of this year. 3809. Have you driven any others ? Yesterday I had No. 457 for one trip. That is the only other engine I have been dtiving except No. 452. 3810. Did you find many defects in these engines during the time you were driving them either in the reversing-gear or the brake-gear ? No, sir ; I can only speak for my own engine, that is the one I am driving now, and she is just the same as when she came out of the shop. 3811. Have you had no repairs to the brake-valve or reversing-gear ? No, she is just the same now as when she came out of the shop. 3812. Has she had many repairs made to her in other ways than those I have mentioned ? No, only those you would expect from an ordinary locomotive, that is to say, the ordinary running repairs. The second trip that I ran her I noticed on the tender that one pair of the wheels, the trailing bogie wheels, on the leading end, were wrong. One of the wheels had shifted. I reported it to the Locomotive- Inspector at Bathurst. This pair was taken out and another pair substituted, and, so far as I know, three pairs of the original wheels are still under the engine. 3812|-. Those taken out were replaced, you say ? Tes. 8813. That, then, has been the only defect you know of in that particular engine ? Tes, sir. The wheel worked loose on the axle. 3814. Have you ever minutely examined the wheels on these engines ? Tes ; on my own engine. I have not examined the others. 3815. Did you find any cracks on the spokes ? No, I did not. 3816. Ton were driving the engine on the night of the accident. When the engine 'is going round a curve there is always a bumping motion is there not ? Tes. 3817. When you were passing over the rail at the time of the accident, did you feel anything beyond the ordinary motion of the engine ? No, nothing at all. I felt a shock at the end of the train, and I said to my mate, " It is an air pipe burst," and I put the brake on the train. 3818. Tou know the weight of these engines is about 92 tons, do you think that the engines being this weight have a bad effect upon the road ? No, sir, I do not. 3819. What causes you to come to that conclusion ? Well, for the simple reason that they are so constructed that they take the curves more easily than other kinds of engines. I had the misfortune to report the road several times on account of it having been cut about, and I was told the other day that the Tankee engines did not knock the roads about so much as the others do. They take the curves more easily. They do not jump into the curve but take it gradually. 3820. President^] When you reported about the road being knocked about,, what engines were running then ? The Scotch engines, sir. It is our duty if we find a bad place on the road to report it. I referred to the Scotch Tankees. These were on the mail service previous to our getting the Baldwins. 3821. BAlDWra liOCOMOTITES INQUIBT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 127, 3821. And you say ttat they knock the road about more than the others ? Tes ; because they jump ^J- into the curve instead of taking it gradually. ^- ^°'^=' 3822. Mr. Hoyle.] How do you account for that? I don't know how it is. &Mr""l8q2 3823. Do you know that the weight on the driving-wheel is greater on the Baldwin engines than on the ^' Scotch Yankees? Tes ; I am told that it is greater, but I do not know whether that is a fact or not. I am told so. I do not know what weight the Scotch Yankee is on the driving-wheel. 3824. It seems you have driven the Vulcan ? Tes ; I was the first man to take a Vulcan over the Moun- tains. They are very rough and heavy on the roads. 3825. "What is their weight ? About 75 tons altogether. 3826. "Well, your evidence at Bathurst, where you state that it is 85 tons, is incorrect ? Yes ; I have written to the Coroner correcting that statement. 3827. President.'] Pointing out to him that you had made a mistake in saying 85 tons ? * Tes. 3828. Mr. Hoyle.'] You say that that engine, the Vulcan, with a weight of ].4 tons 7 cwt. on the drivers, would do more damage to the road than an engine like the Baldwin, with 15 tons 9 cwt. on its driving- wheel ? 3829. President.] What he says is that the Vulcan engine, for some reason" which he does not explain, is very heavy on the roads. Witness : — From the construction of the engine, I think it does more damage to the road than the Baldwin ; that is what I say. 3830. Mr. Royle^ Don't you believe that the weight of an engine has something to do with the knocking about of the road — on account of the oscillation, for example ? It is the way they take the curve ; they jump into the curves—that is, the Scotch engines do, but the Baldwin engines take it gradually. 3831. But there is oscillation on the straight run, and it is greater there than on the curves? Yes. 3832. Then the additional weight of an engine about 20 tons heavier than the Vulcan would have a worse effect upon the road running upon the straight than the Vulcan, is not that so ? Well, I have given you my experience so iar as I have been a driver on the New South Wales railways ; and I have also had it confirmed by what the [jermanent-way inspectors have said. 3833. Do you know what was the weight of tlie train behind you at the time of the accident? At the time the accident happened it was about 132 tons ; before it happened I had an exceptionally heavy load from the Mount to AVallerawang, but the engine had no difficulty in taking tliis load over the heaviest grade of the mountain, the 1 in 33. 3834. What was the heaviest load between Katoomba and AVallcrawaug ? I do not know ; I did not make it up. The officer whoso duty it is would know that. 3835. How many carriages had you ? I had carriages equal to twenty-two and a half vehicles. 3S3G. Is it not a down grade ? No, sir; there is some piiUing. 3837. What is the heaviest grade ? 1 in 33 ; what we call the Grins, between Bell and Clarence. 3838. How long is the hill ? I could not sav. 3839. About 5 miles or 3 miles? No. 3840. What would you imagine it to be ? About a mile, at 1 in 33. 3841. And you had equal to twenty-two and a half vehicles ? Yes. 3842. Was the train crowded? Yes, it was ; there was only just sitting room. 3843. Have vou ever taken the train from Penrith to Bathurst with one of the Baldwin passenger-engines ? Yes. 3844. Have you had any assistance to take you up the bank ? Yes, on one trip. 3845. Why was that ? Because I did not know the stated load for these engines. A notice had been issued specifying the loads that were to be taken, and I did not know what it was. It was given out at the time, and, in my estimation, it was safer to take a pilot with, me, than risk taking too heavy a load. As a matter of fact, I found that the load was a little short of what I might have taken. 3846. Do you think it safe to take a load of 225 tons up that grade with the draw-gear at present used? I think it is quite safe for that road with the strongest draw-gear. I think it is quite safe, and I don't think there is any reason to question it. » 3847. With a train equal to 22| vehicles, had you to shift your train to suit the platforms often? No. 3848. In your evidence at Bathurst inquest you say you were fifteen minutes late at Bathurst — you said, " I am not allowed to make up time " Why are you not allowed to make up time ? An order was recently issued by the Chief Mechanical Engineer with regard to this making.up of time. He forbade drivers to make up time, especially on a falling grade, and it behoves every driver to obey this order ; or, if he does not, he must bear the consequences of not doing so. 3849. Does this order apply to other engines as well as the Baldwin ? Yes, I take it to do so. 3850. Did you receive a printed order to that effect — an order such as is usually given to drivers ? Yes, and I signed it. ■ 3851. Do you know whether it applied to the Bald'vin engines only? I do not know whether it applied to the Baldwin engines only, but I know it said the Baldwin engines. 3852. As a driver, having your experience and care, do you think it would be dangerous to drive an engine over a road such as that between Sodwalls and Locksley, with about six miles of iron rails, at a higher rate than 25 miles an hour ? Yes, certainly ; because on parts of the road we have to reduce our speed — that is, where the road is in bad order. The outdoor inspector issues weekly notices, and we receive them and sign them, and they specify the speed at which we have to travel at certain portions of the road that are in bad order. We have to obey these orders, and we reduce our speed accordingly. We do not care what class of engine we are driving, we have to follow instructions all the same. 3853. Can you tell us at what particular parts you have to slow down in consequence of the roads being in bad order ? Between Bathurst and Tarana to the 121 mile post, going round the Slip. 3854. Where is that ? On the Bathurst side of Tarana. 3855. What speed do you slow down to ? Twenty miles an hour. 3856. Do you then, in passing over that particular part of the road with your engine, find any extra motion with it ? No ; and we often wonder why the out-door superintendents keep these orders out so long. 3857.' You have the regular gangs on the road? Yes, sir, on the regular length ; and if we find anything wrong with the road we report it at the first station we come to. 3858. In what way was the train running when it struck, and the accident happened ? (Here the witness viewed the iron rail, which bad been placed by the Eailway Commissioners in the Board-room for inspec- tion, and pointed out what he believed to be the end of the rail that had pointed towards Sydney.) 3859. 128 BALDWIN 10C05I0T1TES ISQUIET COMMISSION— MUflTTES OT ETIDESCJB. _ y^^L 3859. Mr. Brown.] Do you know certainly that that is the end— do not say it if you are not certain? ,^-IILC^^" Well, I do not know certainly. I did not examine the place myself. I can say which surface it is, but I 5 May 1892 •^"■"I'lot say exactly which end it is. ' 3860. [The Railway Gommissioner present and several others examined the rail.] 3861. Mr. Fehon.] There is a question as to whether the witness is not in error as to which end it is. 3862. Mr. Hoyle.] Is it your opinion, Mr. Moses, that your engine did not break the rail ? Yes. 3863. It is your opinion, you say, that your engine did not break the rail ? Yes ; not in the manner it is broken. 8864. Do you think that in passing your engine had anything to do with the break ? I cannot say. I think that if it had gone towards the breaking it a little, it is likely that I should have felt it. 3865. Taking the closeness of your engine-wheels and the wheels of the carriages followiDg and the speed you were going at, it would not take you long to skim over 25 yards ; — taking that into consideration, do you think the bogie could cause the breaking of the rail ? I do not believe the tender would have gone over, because it was heavily laden, and there is a long space between the engine and the leading wheel of the tender. 3866. But is it not possible that it might have broken it, and since you got over so quickly you might not have noticed it ? I believe the first to strike was the back carriage — I mean to strike the end of the sleeper. 3867. But you do not know ? I do not know whatever. 3868. Mr. Fehon.] I would ask you, Mr. President, is not this making the inquiry an inquiry into the Tarana accident. 3869. President.] The point which Mr. Hoyle wants to make is that the Baldwin engine on account of its weight broke the rail, so I understand. 3870. Mr. Hoyle.] I think, Mr. Moses, that the line near Locksley has been relaid. Did not you find a great difference in your engine passing over that road and the part I am now speaking of? Yes; for there new rails and new ironbark sleepers have been put down. There are about 11 miles of that road that have been rehiid, reslcepered, and reballasted. Part of that line has been relifted, and that has been the case for the past four months. 3871. You have the order about the speed, — can you let us have it ? Yes ; but I think you can get one in Sydney. Every one has received it up the line as far as Bourke, on the Northern line, and on the Southern line as well. 3872. Do you not know, as a driver, that the weight upon the driving-wheel has a most severe effeat upon the road ? Yes. 3873. Then, if the weight on the driving-wheel of the Baldwin engines is greater than the weight on thei driving-wheel of any other engine you have driven, do you still believe that the Baldwiu engine is less injurious than an engine with a lesser weight on the driving-wheel ? Yes ; I do. 3874. Professor Warren.] "Will you explain that ? The reason is because the weight is more evenly distributed. 3875. So that it does not matter what the total weight may be so long as it is distributed evenly ? Yes ; distributed as it is upon the Baldwin. 3876. So that you might have 50 tons on the wheels, and so long as that weight was perfectly distributed over the wheels it would not matter— no liarm would be done ? The wheels of the Baldwin engines are closer together and the weight is evenly distributed, and they take the curve more easily than the others do. 3877. Suppose this [drawing a diagram] is the sleeper, and you get a weight of, say, 15 tons 9 cwt., and this line represents the rail, would uot that be more likely to break it than a weight of 12 tons ? "Well, that depends upon circumstances. 3878. Suppose the circumstances are equal in both cases? There may be oscillation. 3879. Supposing they are the same in that respect also, would not the greater weight tend to break the rail more than the less weight would ? Yes, under those circumstances. 3880. Well, if that is so, why did you say that the weight of the Baldwin engine would not tend to break the rail because the weight was evenly distributed; — does it not, as a matter of fact, depend upon the greatest weight upon the driving-wheel ? Yes, to a groat extent ; and also the way in which your sprinss are balanced. 3881. Do the Baldwin engines oscillate less than other engines or more ? The one I am driving I can safely say oscillates very little. 3882. Less than, say, the Scotch Yankees ? Yes, sir, it does. 3883. I believe that I am right in stating that the Midelton engine is 12 tons on the pair of drivin"- wheels. ° 3884. Mr. Fehon.] Fifteen tons 1 cwt., I think: 3885. Mr. Midelton.] Thirteen tons on the pair of driving-wheels, that is it. 3886. Witness.] I know that they oscillated very much, 3887. Professor Warren.] Take the 304 class? "^I have driven both what Mr. Midelton calls his own; the 304 class, the Scotch Yankee, and the Baldwin. 3888. "Wliich of these oscillates the most ? The 304. 3889. And which next ? The Scotch. Both of these oscillate more than the Baldwin. 3890. Is it not a mistake to say that because one engine oscillates more than another it tells more upou the road. Does it not depend upon the weight of the driving-wlieel as well as upon the oscillation. You do not know, you have not measured it ? I judge by the way it takes the curves, and the way the men have to hang on — ^I mean the firemen. 3891. You have made a statement that the Baldwiu engines are not so destructive on the roads as the other engines. Now, what I want to get at is this, how do you know ;— do you arrive at that conclusion only because you have measured it from appearance ? Yes ; it is my own experience. 3892. You would not swear it ? It is my impression. 3893. Jfr. Hoyle.] The reason you believe the Baldwin is less destructive is because the wheels are closer together, — at least you give that as one reason ? Yes. 3894. Do you know that the rigid base of the Vulcan driving-wheel is 8 ft. 3 in., and the ri ^^^2. 4237. Mr. Royle.'] With regard to the Board of Trade rule, do you consider that these engines running over the Solitary Creek bridges would be perfectly safe ? The speed makes very little difi'erence over a straight road like that ; but I think the cross-girders of the Penrith bridge were not too strong. 4258. ProfesKor Warren.'] Does not that apply to all bridges included in the report ? In the original report it is shown that they are weak — the main girders are strong enough. 4259. Do you think that the Solitary Creek bridge, which, according to this report, is stressed with 6'75 tons in tension, would be strong enough ? Well, that is in excess of the Board of Trade rules. 4260. If this Solitary Creek bridge, which was tested with the Consolidation engine, and the calcu- lations here show that the stress is G'75 tons in tension ; — do you think that the new Consolidation engine will make the tension more than 8 tons, and would that be safe ? I should think it would be. 4261. Mr. Royle.] "Was that safe ? JN'o ; I do not think so. 4262. Projessor Warren.] Neither was the first, and the second makes it still less so. 4263. ilfr. .HoyZe.] Were these bridges strengthened in the cross-girders in 1888? jN'o ; not to my knowledge. That is the Penrith bridge and the Solitary Creek bridges. There has been very little done to them since the Commission sat. 4261. Professor Warren.] They were for your consideration, but you did not think it worth while to strengtheu then? No ; it was not left to me. I should have done a great deal more to them if it had been left to me. Indeed, that was the reason of the Eoyal Commission — I wanted to do more ' to them than was thought advisable by others. 4265. The Eoyal Commission, in its report, says there were 9 tons on the cross-girders of these bridges? That is too much. 4266. Tes. 4267. Mr. Royle.] Did you receive any written complaint of the roads from your inspectors or gangers ? I do not remember ; but I am perfectly sure I could bring men, and telegraph for them, who have stated to me that they could not keep these roads in order, on account of the engines knocking them about so. 4268. Have you seen the broken rail from the Tarana accident ? No ; I have not. 4269. It is here ? Then I should like to see it [Jiere the ivitness inspected tlie rail]. 4270. Having seen the rail, can you tell us whether it is a lateral strain that broke it; — could you form an opinion ? I do not think I could form an opinion from that inspection of it. It might be either the weight on it or not. 4271. Professor Warren.] The vertical weight must have acted until it left the rails, and if there was any lateral pressure that would probably add to it ? Tes. 4272. There would be the resulting pressure due to both forces ? Tes. 4273. Mr. Royle.] Tou know the weight of the engine ; — well, if the weight of the engine did not break the rail, do you think that the weight on the carriage wheel would break it ? I have no faith whatever in the carriage having broken the rail. ' 4274. President.] Well, how would you account for the engine and the first carriages passing over before anything left the track ? Well, that is very often the case. I have known several trains go over a broken rail before any damage was done ; in fact, I have known no damage at all to be done, and yet the rail to be fractured. An old inspector of mine, who ha.s retired from the service, and whom I met the other day, told me of a case which he knew of as happening at a place beyond Grlen lones, going down towards the Border. The driver reported to him that a rail was broken, and told him as nearly as possible about the place; he walked the ground all over, up and down, and a ganger on the length also went over it and yet neither of them could find the fracture. He talked with the driver again, and told him to throw off a big piece of coal at the place where he found the engine jump. He did so, and yet they could not find it. Finally, the driver pointed out the place as he passed, and the ganger sat down at it, and the inspector then saw the cause of the jump, and he said it was almost necessary to take a microscope to see where the fracture had happened. It had come together in exactly the same place, and there was only a fine hair line to indicate where the rail was broken. There was only one crack, and the sleepers on either side kept the rail in place. 4275. Professor Warren.] What about your lateral strain ? Well, if this was on a curve it must have been on a very little one ; it could not have been an 8 or 10 chain curve. 4276. Mr. Royle.] Do you know on>what line that happened ? No, I do not. I only happened to see my informant yesterday. He was in town from Newcastle. I suppose there are hundreds of rails broken to one accident that happens through such breakages. It depends entirely upon how the rail breaks. 4277. Are rails more likely to break in cold weather or hot weather ? Tes ; they are more likely to break in cold weather. 4278. And especially frosty weather ? Tes. They creep in the hot weather, and there is a great tension on them — they are strained ; in a mile of road do wn a long incline the hanging on the fish-bolts will be very tight indeed, and in such a condition they would be more likely to break if they; got a blow. 4279. Will iron creep more than steel in a given space ? I do not think there is much difference in that. Very little, if any. 4280. Mr. Fehon.] Are you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? I am not. 4281. Tou say that you consider that these engines are not suited to the road because they are so heavy ? Tes; but that is not my whole reason. 4282. President.] What is the whole reason ? I say the great length — ^that also is a reason. 4283. Mr. Fehon.] Are you not aware that it is the weight on the driving-wheel that governs the safety of an engine on the road ? Not altogether. I stated that before, and I think I gave my reasons. 4284. Why is it so — I am speaking of safety ? The lateral pressure on the rails going round sharp curves — that is the side pressure — is very much more likely to break the rail than the vertical pressure. 4285. Which do you consider would do most harm to the road, — an engine of the w^eight of the Baldwin engine, or two engines coupled together ? The one engine certainly will knock the road more about than the two, if they are lighter engines. 4286. 142 BALDWIN lOOOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION — MINrTES 01" ETIBENCE. Mr. Oowdery. 4286. Do you know what was the heaviest weight on the driving-wheel when you were in charge of the ,/Tp"^^"ri^ existing lines? I do not know ; but they were considerably less than now. xo May, 1892. 4387. Will you be surprised to hear that the weight was a ton more— it was 16 tons 6 cwt — and these are only 15 tons 7 cwt. ? Oh, yes ; I know that is the tank engines, and they were very much too heavy ; they were not favourites of mine. One jumped off at Newtown. We had a "Wade engine ; I obiected to her ; her driving-wheels were too heavy for the leading- wheels. 4288. Was it not the bad state of the permanent way? No ; I object to that. Other engines passed over the road, and it was not on account of the road. 4289. After a fall of rain did the mud squirt out from under the rail? Well, so it will from under the, English roads. -1290. "Will it do so on the permanent road now ? It will in some places. 4291. Will it at Newtown ? No, because it is now heavily ballasted ; I will go in myself for all matters such as the increase of rails and ballasting of roads. I never objected to that. 4292. What was the weight of the rail in your time ? Seventy -five-pound iron rail, but a good deal of road was afterwards laid witli steel that was renewed. 4293. Suburban road was the same as the main road now, as far as the 75-lb. rails were concerned? Tes ; I believe so. 4294. And you consider it safe for these tank engines to run on that rail ? I never said that ; they were only tank engines, and never went far beyond Sydney. 4295. How many years were these running? I cannot say ; I cannot tell you. 4296. Mr. Broivn!] Tou did not like them — they were running too long for you ? No ; I did not like them. 4297. Mr.. Fehon.] Tou say that in America they have the sleepers placed more closely together ; — have you ever been in America ? No. 4298. Then you do not know this of your own knowledge ? No ; I do not know myself, but I have read it. 4299. Do you consider a T rail stronger than a double-headed rail ? Tes ; I say that a T rail is stronger laterally than a double-headed rail. 4300. Are you not a patentee of the hydra-headed rail? Tes. 4301. "What became of it ? Tou pulled it up before it was necessary ; it was not pulled up on account of the chair, but because the sleeper was too weak for it. I admit, that although it was my own sleeper ; but that rail never cracked, and a safer one you could not have. 4302. Professor Warren.'] The deflection of the sleepers caused the rails to come together ? Tes ; it was through the outer end of the sleeper lifting. 4303. Suppose, Mr. Cowdery, that the gauge was altered from 4 feet SJ- inches to 4 feet 7i inches? Oh, it was not affected that much — that is 1 inch. I think it was only affected about the sixth of an inch. 4304. But I am sure of it ? But you did not iind that. 4305. Tes I did ; I measured it. 4306. Mr. Fehon.'] Did you not find the American engines more pliable than the English ? That depends whether they have bogie frames on them or not. 4307. The American engines have bogie frames on them ? Some of the English have also. 4308. Is not the American engine pliable, and less likely to knock a road about than the English ? My experience is that the American engine will knock the road about a great deal more, as I have stated before, and I know that has been the condition on the mountains ; the men could not keep the road in repair. 4809. Spealcing about broken rails, you have seen a good many broken and with cracks during the time that you had charge ? Tes, latterly, a good many. 4310. And from what causes did they break ? I do not know. 4311. Well, they did not break from the Baldwin engines running over them? I could not tell you whether any engine caused a fracture. 4312. But not the present Baldwin engines ? I do not know anything about them. I kept away from them on purpose. 4313. President.'] Why ? Well, because I did not want to give evidence about them. 4314. Mr. Brown.] Tou did not keep out of it ? No ; so it appears. 4315. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Cowdery, will you tell me how you would calculate a strain on a bridge ? No, I will not ; I shall not answer you a question like that. 4316. But can you ? I suppose I can ; I have done so before. 4317. Mr. Hoyle.] I think the question is insulting, and should not be put ? (Witness :) No ; I do not think Mr. Eehon means it in that way. 4318. Mr. FeJion.] No ; of course I do not. 4319. Witness.] I could work it out for you ; but I could not do it on the rough. 4320. Could you not tell us roughly ? No, I do not intend to tell you roughly ; if you want me to do it, I will do it. 4321. Tou have seen the rail — what do you think of it? I do not think it was a good one ; it was crystallized. It is done. I dare say it has been a good one once. 4322. Do you not think it fit for the roads ? Oh ; I dare say it is as good as the ordinary run. 4323. What test should it take ; how many feet falling per ton should that rail stand before breaking ; I mean taking the drop test ? I do not know how many tons that should stand. 4324. How many do you think ; how many tons falling per foot should that rail stand before breaking ? I do not know per foot. 4325. How many feet ought one ton fall before it broke this rail ? I could not tell you from memory ; I have not made any calculation. 4326. Mr. Fehon.] There is no calculation about it? My memory is not good enough for that. 4327. But your memory is good enough for many things ? Tes, it is. 4328. President.] Tou would not care to commit yourself to an answer ? No, I would not. 4329. When you were Engineer for Existing Lines did you make any recommendation for the quadruplica- tion of the line from Sydney to Granville ? Tes, certainly, 4330. It was recommended in your time ? Tes. 4331. BAIDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 143 4331. Did you make any calculations ? Tes, a rough calculation, simply a plan. Mr, Cowdery, 4332. What are yon alluding to now, Mr. Hoyle ? ' ' ^-^-a^-^ 4333. Mr. Boyle.'] I want to get to the platforms. 10 May, 1892. 4384. (To Witness.) Did you also recommend the alteration of certain curves on the mountains ? Yes, certainly, lots of them. 4335. li you knew at the time of the quadruplication of the line that certain platforms would have to be demolished in order to carry out such quadruplication, would you have put those platforms in gauge before quadruplicating the line I mean, and provided there was" no danger to passing rolling stock ? I would not consider it worth while. 4336. Mr. Brown.] I do not think anybody else would. ' 4337. Mr. Felon.] There was a standard gauge fixed for the platforms and tunnels when you were in office. What was the gauge of the double-road tunnel— what was the width of it ? I could not tell you from memory what the width of the tunnel was. 4338. Can you tell us what was the width of the single-road tunnel ? I think it was about 15 feet in the widest place, but they have curved sides, and I do not know which part you would take. 4339. Can you tell me what was the height of the platform ? I think it was 2 feet 9 inches. 4340. And what was the width from the centre of the road to the edge of the platform ? Of what time are you speaking ? 4341. Mr. Whitton's last standard gauge ? I do not think he made a standard gauge ; I think we made it for him. I think it was 2 feet 5 inches from the coping of the platform to the outside of the rail. 4342. What was it to the centre of the road ? AVe never took it from the centre ; it was from the inside of the nearest rail we took it. 4343. At all events the platform had to be 2 feet 9 inches high, and 5 feet from the centre of the road to the edge of the platform? Yes, I daresay that would not bo far away ; what I have stated was the way it was measured for Mr. "Whitton's standard gauge. I can assure you that it was so, because I have put up many platforms for him. 4344. Professor Warren?^ Taking it at 2-i feet? 4345. Mr. Fehon.] As ii matter of fact it is 5 feei. 4346. Mr. Browrt.] That is what we uuderstood as the uniform gauge. 4347. Mr. Fehon.] Do you remember putting up the Eocky Ponds platform ? No, 434S. Do you remember the North Menangle platform ? Yes, I remember the latter ; it was a short little platform, and it was put up before I was Engineer for Existing Lines. 4349. It was in your time the North Menangle platform was 5 feet 4?- inches from the centre of the road and 2 feet lu-j inches high ? I did not put that up. 4350. Do you say that you did not put up the North Menangle oue ? No. 4351. Did you put up the Douglas Park platform ? No. 4352. The Maldon platform ? I do not know where it Js. 4353. Mr. Brown.] Can you remember any you put up ? Yes, Mittagong. 4354. Mr. Fehon.] Do you remember Galgong platform ? No, I do not remember. 4355. I think we can give evidence to show that Mr. Cowdery put up all these platforms, and that they were out of gauge. 4356. Mr. Broivn.] Perhaps the foot rule was not the same length as it is now. 4357. Witness.] There was never a platform put up without the drawings being made out and figured in 4358. Mr. Fehon.] You did put up the ArnclifE platform ? No ; Mr. Whitton did that. 4359. pid you alter the gauge of that ? When the first Baldwin engines came out to this Colony we had to reduce some of the platforms to allow them to pass. 4360. Oh, you had to do that in your day ? Yes ; or in Mr. Mason's. 4361. How many did you alter to make room for these engines ? Some of them we did not alter. 4362. But how many altogether ? Not many. 4363. Thirty or forty ? Not so many as that. We altered the roads in some places, and in some places I- think we could scarcely have the 6 feet between them, which I do not say is the correct thing. We could not have a uniform gauge. 4364. Professor Warren.] Certainly, you could not have a uniform gauge, when you had to alter some platforms and not others ? When these engines first came out they were to run only on the Western line, and we altered all the platforms there. Then again, a good deal depended upon whether they were on the curves, as the long vehicles made a great difference. 4365. And these Baldwins were not allowed to run on the Northern line you say ? They were only required on the western lines. 4:366. So that if the present Baldwins were required to run on the Northern and Southern lines, and , since they are larger than the old Baldwins, the platforms on the Northern and Southern lines would require to be altered ? Yes, certainly. 4367. And the platforms would have to be altered for the old Baldwins if they run on the Northern and Southern lines ? Yes, I daresay they should. I do not see why they should not. 4368. Mr. Hoyle.] There are some of the witnesses here whom I have called — the drivers on some of the engines, and though it may perhaps be a serious inconvenience to the Department to have them remain down here to night, still for certain reasons I cannot call them this afternoon. I do not like to put the Commission to inconvenience, but for certain reasons I cannot call them now, and I would ask the Commission to allow their evidence to stand over till to-morrow. 4369. Mr. Fehon.] It is most inconvenient to keep these four drivers away. They are running on the same road, and it is a very serious for these men with their regular trains to drive and their regulur duties to perform. They cannot go to Bathurst to night and return here by to-morrow. 4370. President.] But still Mr Hoyle might have some very strong reasons. 4371. Mr. Hoyle.] I have very strong reasons indeed. 4372. President.] I am quite sure of this that Mr. Hoyle would not ask for the postponement of this evidence unless he had some reason that appears very strong to himself. I do not for a moment suppose that he would willingly put the Department to inconvenience. 4373. Mr. Brown.] I think that on the other hand he has manifested throughout this inquiry a desire not to put the Department to any inconvenience, 4374. Mr. Hoyle.] I would not ask what I do but for- very strong reasons indeed. 4375. 144 BALDWIN I/OCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINriES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. Cowdery. 4,375. President.] Tou might consider the matter Mr. Hoy le whilst tke next witness is under examination. /—^ X -^ill |jg ^^-^^ Y p Yes, 1 think he will, there are a great many questions 1 want to ask him 10 May, 1892. 4,^^^ However inconvenient it will be I cannot help that, and I do not think for one moment that Mr. Hoyle would willingly put the Department to any inconvenience, although as a matter of fact, I dp not see how I can help it under any circumstances, but he has some strong reason you may depend upon it. James Isaac Haycroft, being sworn, said :— Mr. 4377. I am a civil engineer. » , t -j. j. j; n- -i t? • J.I. Haycroft. 4378. President.] "What are your qualifications. Are you a member of the Institute ot Livii Jingineers ? ^-^-^ N I am a corporate member, I am also a Master in Engineering of the Queen's University, Ireland. 10 May, 1892. 4379. Have you been connected with any railway service in the old country ? Yes. 4380. Where is that, in Ireland or England ? England. 4381. With what line ? The Great Western, London, North-western, and the South-eastern. 4382. In what capacity ? Well I was assistant to a firm of civil engineers. I was with Mr. Wells Owen, , son of the chief engineer on the Great- western railway, and through his good offices I had introductions to the chief engineers on these various lines, and they gave me carte blanche to make inspeetio'ns for myself. 4383. But have vou been engaged upon- any of these lines in the capacity of an engineer to a railway company ? Tes,"on the Hounslow and Metropolitan Eailway and also upon a branch line to the Great Western Eailway at Bridgewater. 4384. What was your duty on these lines ? I was engaged in constructing the permanent ways on the Hounslow and Metropolitan Eailway. 4385. Professor Warren.'] Did I understand you to say that you were a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? I am a corporate member. 4386. An associate member — it is usual to state that ? It is a matter of taste. 4387. Yes, but people differ as to matters of taste. 4388. Mr. Hoi/le.] You have had considerable experience on the English railways ? Yes. 4389. On the English railways you have to take into consideration the strength of the rails ? Yes. 4390. And when you are taking into consideration the strength of the rails do you not also take into consideration the weight of the engines that have to run along them ? Not exactly the weight of the engines, but the weight on the driving-wheel. 4391. You also have had experience with regard to the difference in the sleepers ? Yes. 4392. Do you know the weight of the Baldwin engines ? Not personally, but I have heard the weight stated in the course of evidence. 4393. You have read the evidence that has been given before the Commission in the daily papers, I suppose ? Yes, and I have heard some of it. 4394. You may have heard to-day if you have been in Ihe room that the weight on the driving-wheels of the Baldwin passenger locomotive is 15 tons G cwt., and that the weight on the driving-wheels of the Baldwin Consolidation engines is 15 tons 9 cwt. ? Yes. 4395. And that the j)assenger engine is to travel 40 miles an hour on a straight road and 25 miles an hour on curves, and that the Consolidation engine is limited to a speed of 18 miles an hour all round ? Yes. 4396. I want to ask you to give us your opinion as a railway engineer as to the suitability or otherwise of our permanent ways with an iron rail weighing 75 lb. to the yard, and a steel weighing 71 lb. to the yard for these two classes of engines. I want to ask you whether taking the weights of these two rails into consideration, and taking into consideration also the weights of these engines on the parts named, do you consider that they may be run with safety over our roads ? I can only give you an opinion with regard to the iron rail, which I have investigated, and that is, that the weight of a Baldwin engine upon it is excessive. I have not examined the steel rail, but judging from analogy I might be able to give an opinion. 4397. President.] What is the weight of the iron rail ? Seventy-five pounds to the yard. 4398. And you say that the weight of the engine is excessive for that rail? Yes. 4399. Mr. Hoyle.] Would you kindly give the Commission the result of your investigation. You have had a sketch of a section ot the rail, I believe ? Yes, I have. 4400. And you have investigated the matter from that sketch ? Yes, from the sketch supplied by the Department for Eailway Construction ; and though I am sure it has not been wilfully done, still the sketch is not to scale although it is full size. However, upon seeing that sketch I have come to certain conclusions which amount to this, that with the chairs 3 feet apart, or in other words, with the centre bearings of the rail 3 feet apart, the stress in the case of a Baldwin engine with 15 tons 9 cwt. on the driving-axle would amount to 5'18 tons per square inch, and with the chairs, 2 ft. 3 in. apart centres. 4401. Professor Warren.] Do you mean the sleepers ? Not exactly the sleepers, which, of course, are approximately the same distance apart themselves, but the chairs placed in the centre of the sleepers. I say that, with the chairs 2 feet 3 inches apart in the case of a Baldwin engine with 15 tons 9 cwt. on the driving-axle, the stress on the fibres of the rail would equal 3'88 tons. Those may seem small figures to the non-professional mind, but when it is remembered that the working stress on a rail is much less than in any other kind of ironwork, it will be seen that the}' are by no means unimportant. It has been found from recent investigations by German scientists that ultimate strength of a structure such as a rail is 18'38 tons per square inch, and that the ultimate strength of steel is 21 tons per square inch. Adopting a factor of safety of 8, the allowable stress on an iron rail should not exceed 4"46 tons per square inch, and adopting a factor safety of 3, the allowable stress on a steel rail should not exceed 7 tons to the square inch. As a matter of fact, 3 is a rather low factor of safety for a rail. It should be increased to at least 4, due to the direct impact of the load on the rail, and if 4 is adopted as a factor of safety, the allowable stress in an iron rail then becomes 3f tons to a square inch, and the allowable stress in a case of a steel rail becomes 5'25 tons to a square inch. 4402. Might I ask how you arrive at these figures ? In the ordinary way any professional man would arrive at them. 4403. Yes, but that is hardly definite enough. How did you, as a professional man, arrive at them ? By investigating them. 4404. President.] How did you investigate them ? By getting the maximum bending moment due to the load on the driving-axle. 4405. BALUWIJf LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSIOIT — MINrTES OP ETIDEITCE. 1^5 4405. Professor Warren.] Where is the maximum benditig moment? On the centres between the Mr. chairs. J- 1- Haycroft. 4406. Then I understand you to say that you took it just as i£ the rails were cut off at the chairs ? No, ■CJ~ ^ 4407. Then how did you do it ? I treated it as a continuous girder, and as a girder which was firmly ^"*'^^y> 1892. fixed at the ends. 4408. Ton tools; it as a continuous girder, and yet you say that the maximum bending moment was at the centre between the chairs ? No ; I never said so. 4409. You said iu the first instance that your maximum bending moment occurred between the chairs ; now you say you took it as a continuous girder, and the maximum bending moment occurred elsewhere. Where was that ? I forget for the moment, as I have not the investigations with me. 4410., But where would it occur ? Over the piers. 4411. On what assumption is the continuous girder theory founded ? On a principle which cannot exist in the case of sleepers — namely, that the supports .ire rigid and iu cue plane. 4112. You cannot adopt the continuous theory. In the case of a rail on sleepers you should take it as a beam firmly fixed at the ends, and even then you are arguing in favor of the heavy weight that comes on the rail. 4413. You say you took that as a close beam, and the maximum moment was in the centre ? Yes ; the span is divided into three parts. The central span was half the length, the load being supported midway between the chairs. 4414. Where are the points of inflexion ? Nine inches. That would give 30 inches between the centres, and a central span of 18 inches. Then of course you allow, as it is usual in good practice, a percentage for the dynamic effect on the rail. I allow 33 per cent. 8ome engineers go as high as 50 per cent., but 33 per cent, is ample. 4415. That is to say, you first of all assume the rail is a fixed beam, and then you allow for your load 'by adding 33 per cent, to it, or in other words you increase your beiiding moment by 33 per cent. ? No ;' get the stress due to the bending moment on a fixed beam, and add the percentage to that. That would be the course if it were a quiescent load, but the dynamic effect of a load is 33 per cent. more. 4416. And you consider that to be good practice? Yes; because that has been found to be the proper mode to design iron subject to treatment such as an iron rail or the lactice in a girder receives from a live load. 4417. Whose experiments are you quoting? I believe this is the opinion of Wohler, Weyrauch, and Bauschinger. I then investigated the effect of the engine in use before the Baldwin 'engines arrived. That engine belongs to the 265 class, weighs 63 tons 16 cwt., and has on the driving-wheel a weight of 13 tons 13 cwb. With chairs 3 ft. apart the stress caused by it on the fibres of the rail would equal 4'57 tons per square inch, and the same engine with chairs 2 ft. 3 in. apart would cause a stress on the fibres of the rail equal to 3'3 tons per square inch. 4418. Mr. Fehon.'] Which engine is that ? An engine belonging to the 265 class. 4419. Is that a Mogul engine ? I do not know. It is called the Express, 263 class. I may say that 1 got these weights from the report of the Eoyal Commission on Bridges. 4420. If you are speaking of the Mogul engine you are quite wrong? It is what is known as the 2G5 class in the report of the Conimission on Bridges, It has an exceptionally heavy load on the driving-axles considering the weight of the engine. 4421. Professor Warren.'] Yes : that is right. It has a load of 13 tons 13 cwt. on the driving axles. 4422. Witness.'] I found on investigating that engine that the stress on the rails amounted to 4"57 tons per square inch, with the chairs 3 feet apart, and that the same engine with chairs 2 feet 3 inches apart would cause a stress on the fibres of the rail equal to 3'3 tons per square inch. Then, with regard to the Consolidation goods engine, weighing 75 tons 3 cwt. 1 qr., and 9 tons 15 cwt. on the axle, I find that the stress in the fibres of the rail with chairs 3 feet apart equal to 3*27 tons per square inch, and with chairs 2 feet 3 inches apart centres, the stress would amount to 2'45 tons per square inch. One thing in an investigation of this sort which is bound to be taken into consideration is the fact that, although the primary investigation could be taken as between a maximum of 3 feet bearings, one sleeper may not be properly packed, and thus give no support to the engine, in which case the 3 feet bearings would be increased to a 6 feet bearing, and then if the Commission wished I could give them the stress with which a Baldwin engine and other engines would strain the rail. As a matter of fact, the strain would run very nearly to the ultimate strength of the iron. 4423. Professor Warren.] You mean that by doubling the span you double the strain ? Yes ; it is an allowable case. 4424. But do you consider that treating a rail as a fixed beam is fair ? Yes ; when it is the only way in which you could arrive at the strength of it — when you have to throw overboard the rigid theory of the continuous beam, and it is certainly in favour of the weight resting on the rail. 4425. You mean to say ? That the strength is increased by that supposition. If there is an error.it is on the safe side. I was going to say that in the case of the 63 ton engine, that if unsupported by one of the chairs as a result of one of the sleepers not being properly packed, the stress on the fibres of the iron would reach 9.15 tons per square inch. That is presuming the rail to be unsupported for a distance of 6 feet ; but if the length of the unsupported rail equalled 4 feet 6 inches, the stress on the fibres would then reach 6-7 tons. In the case of the Consolidated goods engine No. 134, with 6 feet bearings, the stress on the rail would amount to 6'5 tons per square inch, and with 4 feet 6 inch bearings, the stress would equal 4-9 tons per square inch. Sir John Fowler's test for New South Wales double-headed rails, weighing 75 lb. per yard, are that a length of rail 4 feet 6 inches be placed on iron supports 3 feet 6 inches apart centres, and then subjected to three blows of 1 ton falling 12 feet, and that under this test it shall deflect not less than Q\ nor more than 7i inches without signs of fracture. 4426. Mr. Hoyle.] Then having investigated the strength of the rail from very many scientific stand-points do you, Mr. Haycrof t, consider that the rails are too light to carry the Baldwin engines ? Well, I would not classify them as too light, I would rather classify them as not strong enough. If the 75 lb. iron rail were made of steel I should certainly not call it too light. 4427. Then do you consider that a 75 lb. iron- rail is not sufficiently strong to carry these Baldwin engines? Yes ;I do. 4428. That is the conclusion at which you have arrived after investigating the matter from the various scientific stand-points that you have alluded to ? Yes. 6--T • 4429. ^^^ BALDWIN- LOCOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION — ^MINUTES OE ETIBENCE. T T TT^' t^ **^^" ■'■ ^^°* *° ^^^ y^ ^ question now relative to bridges, I want to know whether you consider, taking •™^^^*-into consideration the weights of the two difEerent kinds of Baldwin engines, as already indicated, that 10Mayl892 ^^^ ^°^^ P®"" ^°°* P®'" *°^ ^^^ ^^^ *° ^^^^ would be safe over the Solitary Creek and Penrith bridges ? ^' ■ Assuming certain facts, it would be unsafe, the assumption being that the bridges are in the same con- dition now as when their strength was investigated by Professor Warren for the Eoyal Commission on Bridges. According to the experiment then made by Professor "Warren, unless the strength of the bridges has been increased to an even greater extent than that Commission stated would be necessary, they are too light for the Baldwin engines. I would like to qualify that by saying that because an engine goes 4,000 times across a bridge safely, it is not necessarily safe when it travels over it the four thousand and first time. We saw an instance of that recently in the case of the Monohestien bridge in Switzerland which, though badly designed, carried the traffic for several years, but ultimately collapsed without any warning, due undoubtedly to its not being strong enough when erected. I am perfectly certain, taking as facts the deductions brought to light by the Eoyal Commission on Bridges, that, unless steps be taken to increase its strength, the Baldwin engines running over the Solitary Creek bridge wiU sooner or later lead to a collapse. 4430. Tou may have investigated the Penrith bridge in the light of the facts adduced by the Eoyal Commission, and I would like you to give us your opinion of it, taking into consideration the report of the Commission and the weight of these engines ? Well, the Penrith bridge was designed, and I believe is capable of carrying, with a few exceptions of rivets and bearing area of the web, a live load of IJ tons per foot run on each line of rails. The weight of the Baldwin engine however reaches 1-87 tons on each line of rail. That of course is very much in excess of the weight which the bridge is calculated to bear, and the only possible deduction is that the Penrith bridge is not sufficiently strong to bear the rolling load placed upon it by the Baldwin engines. The Baldwin engines place a strain of two-thirds of a ton more upon the bridge than was imposed by the test load which the members of the Bridge Commission considered it safe to carry. According to the evidence of the Commission the consolidation engines impose a stress of 14 tons on a bearing area of portion of web-plates. Whereas according to the Board of Trade Eules, 6i tons strain is the outside strain which should be permitted. 4431. Professor Warren.] There are differences of opinion on the matter. A Committee was appointed by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, and I have no doubt you have seen a report of that Committee, on the question of rivet joints. Do you think that, taking that report into consideration, 6^ tons is excessive on the bearing area? No, I consider it a limit. 4432. Well, supposing the stress was 8 tons on an iron rivet, do you consider that that would be ex- cessive ? It depends upon the class of treatment to which it is subjected ; for instance, a rivet in a boiler should stand a greater strain than a rivet in a bridge. 4433. Taking the case of the Penrith bridge into consideration, do you consider that 8 tons is too high? Tes, in the ease of any bridge I consider that 8 tons on the bearing area is too high. 4434. Are you not aware of the conclusion arrived at by the Committee appointed by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers was that the joints appeared not to be injured when the ultimate bearing pressure did not exceed 40 tons per square inch and in the case of steel 50 tons per square inch ? I am not aware of it. 4435. Are you also aware of what Professor TJnwin says in his text book, that he thinks too much has been made of this pressure on bearing area ? I have seen his remarks quoted. 4436. And he quotes the report of the Committee appointed by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers to the effect that the joints appeared not to be injured when the ultimate bearing pressure did not exceed 40 tons per square inch in iron structures, and 50 tons per square inch in structures of steel. I am speaking of the ultimate stress of course ? Oh yes, but you would have to adopt the old Board of Trade rule of reducing the working pressure down to 5 to get 8 tons on the bearing area. Of course it all depends on what the material is that the structure is made of 4437. Have you worked out the bending moment of the Baldwin engines on the Penrith bridge? No, I have not, I have simply taken the fact that the report of the Eoyal Commission on Eailway Bridges says that the bridge was constructed for the carrying of a live load of If tons per line of rails, whereas the test load is only I'l. I may be right, or I may be wrong. The other point was that If tons per foot run induced the stress on the bearing area of the web plates of 14 tons, and on the rivets of 9'3 tons. In order to ensure the safety of the bridge, the Commission recommend that the f-inch rivets be taken out for certain distances from the ends and 1-inch rivets substituted for them ; also that the pressure on the bearing areas were larger than desirable. If that was necessary for such a small load, of course it is very much more necessary for a load such as is represented by a Baldwin engine. However unsafe the Penrith bridge may be, the Solitary Creek bridge, if in the condition it was in the year 1886, becomes now a matter for very serious consideration. 4438. What is the greatest stress you make in the Solitary bridge as the result of a Baldwin engine running over it? Treating it in the same way as you treated it on the Commission, I have found the stress on the centre of the booms to be approximately 8 tons per square inch. Whereas even under the Board of Trade Eules 5 tons is the limit and where the difference between the life load and the dead load is so marked, it should not exceed 4^ tons. 4438i. Do you think that, taking the stactieal strength of the iron as 21 tons, that the breaking strength, allowing for the ratio between maximum and minimum stress, is equal to 14 tons ? I really would not like to give any direct answer to that question, because, as a professional man, I object to giving anything in the nature of a guess. 4439. Mr. Moyle.'] With what firm did you serve your time ? With B. B. Stoney, chief engineer, of the Port and Docks Board of Dublin, and celebrated as an authority on stresses. He is not a railway engineer, however, and all the railway experience I have had has been in England. 4440. Have you any knowledge of the distance which in England it is usual to place the sleepers apart ? I find that the London and South-western Eailway have a 82-lb. steel rail, with sleepers 2 feet 10 inches apart centres, the sleepers being the same size as those used in New South Wales, namely, 10 inches by 5 inches. 4441. Mr. Brown.'] Tou said just now that you found that such was the case; do you mean that you found it from personal experience, or as the result of reading about it ? Well, it was by refreshing my memory. 4442. It is not from personal experience, then? Tes ; it is from personal knowledge of seven years ago, but I cannot be expected to carry all those details in my mind. The South-eastern Railway has a rail of BALBWHr lOCOMOTlTES INQTJIEX COMMISSION — MINTITES OF^ETIDENCE. 147 oE 82 lb. per yard, witli a distance between the sleepers of 2 feet 8 inches. That is a double-headed rail. Mr. The North-eastern Eailway has 82-lb. double-headed rails, with the sleepers placed at a distance of 2 feet J- 1- Haycroft. 9 inches apart. A non-reversable rail is used by the Midland Railway. It is 85 lb. weight to the yard, ,/T^^"~T^o and the sleepers are 3 feet apart. The London and North-western Eailway also use bull-headed rails, J*lay.l892. and they are 84 lb._ per yard, with a distance between the sleepers of 3 feet 1 inch. The Great Northern Eailway is laid with bull-headed rails, weighing 82 lb. per yard, and the sleepers only 2 feet 8f inches apart. The Great Western Eailway has 86 lb. bull-headed rails, with the sleepers 2 feet 9 inches apart, the sleepers in that ease being 12 feet by 6 inches. The Metropolitan Eailway is similarly constructed of bull-headed rails, 86 lb. to the yard, and sleepers 2 feet 9 inches apart. 4443. President.'] But you have not been over all these railways, have you, Mr. Haycroft ? I can give evidence from personal knowledge of the Great Western, the London and North-western, the South- eastern, and the Metropolitan. 4444. Mr. Brown.'] Can you say that the rails that you have just referred to are the kind of rails they are laying now, or merely those are the kind of rails they were laying seven or eight years ago ? They were layingthem about seven or eight years ago, and if anything, they have increased their weightin themeantime. 4445. President.] Very well ; you may continue, Mr. H.oyle. 4446. Mr. Soyle.] Can you tell us whether these rails are laid only for the purpose of economy or to meet the strain of heavier classes of rolling stock, such as are being introduced of late years ? Well, the strength of the rails has no doubt been adopted for tho purpose of carrying additional weight, but the material in them is used from the point of economy. Steel is used, as being more economical than iron. The life of the steel rail might reach twenty -iive years. The life of an ordinary iron rail, if it exceeds five years, it is a very good rail. 4447. That is speaking of English traffic, I suppose ? Tes. I have no knowledge of colonial trafBe at all. 4448. And I suppose the price of material will have something to do with that as well ? Yes ; steel rails were much dearer than iron rails, but economy is gained in the life of the rail. 4449. If you had to design a railway, and you had within your knowledge the fact that the Baldwin engines had to run upon the railway, would you consider it safe for these engines to run, or would you maie a line with the 75-lb. iron rail ? Certainly not. Not with? sleepers anything over 2 feet apart. When I say sleepers, I mean ctairs. 4450. Have you any experience of the weights on the driving-wheels of the engines in England ? Well, I have done very little in that line. I have known cases ou. the Metropolitan railway in which the weight of the driving-axle has been 171 tons, and I have heard it alluded to in the Institution as a remarkable instance of how people will dare to run abnormally heavy engines. 4451. Where did you get the knowledge with regard to the permanent way ? In London. During my spare time I made it my business to study the permanent way, and that has enabled me to offer these opinions to the Commission. 4452. Professor Warren.] With reference to the weights on the driving-wheel, have you ever designed a railway bridge ? Tes ; several. 4453. And you use cross-girders in your bridges ? Tes. 4454. And did you not consider the weights on the driving-wheels ? In constructing a bridge you must consider the driving-wheels, because the strength of the cross-girders is regulated by the weight on the driving-wheels, and the stress of the main girders is regulated by the load per foot run. In the construc- tion of branch lines in England, necessary information with regard to the strength of bridges and permanent way is always furnished by the company for which the branch runs, and by that means I have been made conversant with the weights on the driring-wheels allowed there. 4455. Mr. S.oyle.] Do you know whether the Board of Trade in England controls the strength of the bridges ? Tes ; they inspect- them before they are opened for public traffic. 4456. Do you think, then, from the calculation of the Eoyal Commission on Bridges, that the Board of Trade would allow such an engine as the Baldwin engine to be used over the Solitary Creek bridge ? It stands to reason that they would not, because its ultimate strength is 5 tons tension. 4457. Professor Warren.] Do you believe in the Board of Trade rules ? I do not. I think they are not keeping up with the investigations of to-day in that respect. 4458. Mr. Hoyle.] -Well, considering that the Board of Trade rules are out of date, let me ask you the question in this way. Do you consider that the Solitary Creek bridge is safe for the Baldwin engines to travel over ? I am bound to believe that it is not. I am very sorry to have to do it, though. 4459. Can you tell us if it is the custom for the Board of Trade officers to examine all lines of railway before they are opened for traffic ? It is absolutely necessary to get a certificate from the Board of Trade before you can open the lines. I have known the opening of lines delayed on that account. 4460. I have no further questions to ask at present. If additions have been made to the strength of the bridges, I should be glad for them to be submitted to the witness that I might obtain his professional opinion upon them. 4461. President.] Tou mean that supposing the Eailway Commissioners say that these bridges were strengthened before these calculations were made you want to know in what respect they have been strengthened ? 4462. Professor Warren."] Supposing Mr. Eoxlee or Mr. Deane gave evidence would you be satisfied with that? ■ 4463. President.] Assuming that Mr. Eehon supplies the information now, as Mr. Hoyle suggests, it might obviate the necessity of his giving, what in a court is called, evidence in reply. 4464. Mr. Fehon.] There will be no gainsaying the evidence that we shall submit. It will be taken from actual facts, and will not be the opinion of any man. 4465. Professor Wtirren.] I may say that Mr. Eoxlee wrote to me to-day, saying that he was going to bring certain drawings of bridges— some that you asked for, Mr. Hoyle, and some that were asked for by the Commission. 4466. Mr. Fehon.] How long have you been in the Colony ? Six years. 4467. How long have you been an associate member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? About two years. Would you like to know why it is such a short time ? 4468. I do not ask you? Well, I would like to qualify the answer. The reason that I did not become an associate before that was that when I contemplated coming to Australia I was certainly not aware ^^8 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTJIEY COMMISSION — MINrTES OF ETEDENCE. - ^ ^^- aware that they thought so much of the fact that a man was a member of the Institute, but when I. JU.Uaycroft. arrived here I found to my surprise that they thought more of that Institution, in which the greatest lo'^iT^1892 ^'^™^<''' of duffers that I know in the profession are congregated than of the University Degree, which I ^' ■ hold one of the highest in the United Kingdom. Learning that such was the case I became a member, as I say, two years ago. As a matter of fact I could have been a member at least ten years previously. 4409. But you are not a member now ? 1 am a corporate member now. 4470. An associate member? Tes ; one and the same thing. 4471. What occupation do you follow now ? I am borough engineer at 'Woollahra. 4472. That is why you got your associate membership, is it ? No ; it certainly is not. 4473. How is it you have taken so much trouble to work out the fractions and decimals — the weight of the Baldwin engines and the effect they would, in your opinion, produce upon the rails and bridges of the Colony. How is it you have taken so much interest in the Baldwin. Tou came here prepared with a great amount of scientific evidence ? Tes, I was asked to come and give expert evidence upon it. If I had been asked by the Commissioners to do so I would have done the same. 4i74. Mr. Brown.'] And you do not come armed with a bow and arrow, do you? No. 4475. Mr. Fehon.] But still I do not understand what your qualifications as a railway engineer are ? I explained liow I had become conversant with the different railways of England through being in Mr. "Wells-Owen's office. He was the son of Mr. George Owen, of the Great Western Eailway. Work being slack for a few months, and, consequently, not being required in the office, I got carte blanche to go over nearly all the different lines, and I confined most of my time to observations concerning the permanent way. 4476. Tou have given evidence concerning the weights of the bull-headed rails that were used on some of the English lines six years ago. 4477. As a matter of fact were the bull-headed rails in use at that time ? Tes ; I put them down myself on the Hounslow and Metropolitan liailway over nine years ago. 4478. Those were the first that were put down ? I thinlc so. 4479. Do you know what the weights of the rails on the New South Wales railways are ? I heard to- day that they were 75-lb. rails when iron and 7L-lb. when steel. 4480. Would you be surprised to hear that there are 110 miles of S5-lb. rails ? That is on the suburban line, I believe. 4481. At all events, you are aware of the fact that in America they are running much heavier engines on much lighter rails than those used by us in this colony ? No ; I am not aware of it. 4482. ■President.'] Tou have heard of Dr. Williams ? Tes. 4483. Is he not a very eminent man in his profession ? Tes ; he is accounted eminent by his profession. 4484. Well, that is really the only way in which any professional man is accounted eminent. His abilities are approved by the members of his profession ? Tes, no doubt. 4485. Well, Dr. Williams is one of the firm of the Baldwin Company ? Tes ; I believe he is. 4486. Tou would imagine that he would know what the respective weights of the engines and the per- manent way in this Colony are ? He should have been able, from his experience, to form a very good opinion. 4487. Mr. Fhhon.] Are you aware that the greater number of rails in America are iron rails ? Tes ; I know that the American practice is very dickey. 4488. Do you know how far the sleepers are placed apart in England ? Well, they are placed at different intervals on different railways. 4489. No there is a standard distance for placing sleepers ? I am not aware of the standard. 4490. I am referring to the Board of Trade standard ? I do not swear it, although I am on my oath, but I am under the impression that the distance apart is 2 feet 9 inches on the Board of Trade standard. 4491. Tou will be surprised to hear that it is 3 feet, I suppose. How long should a 75 lb. iron rail last? It would depend altogether on the nature of the traffic. 4492. I understood you to say just now that it should last five years ? I was speaking then as to how long it should last under ordinary traffic. 4493. What do you call ordinary traffic ? Well, much more frequent than the traffic on the mountain lines ? 4494. How long ought a 75-lb. rail to last, say, on the Western line at Tarana, for instance ? If it was a good rail, I should not be surprised to hear that it lasted eight or ten years with a fair amount of traffic on it ? 4495. Should it not last twenty years ? It might. 4496. What makes an iron rail wear away ? When the fibres begin to strip. 4497. So long as the top of the rail remains soiind you consider it a good rail ? So long as the outer surface lasts, do you consider it a sound rail ? If there is no other defect in it, I do. 4498. If there is no fracture in it ? And no flaw. 4499. In England, is it not the custom to allow the head to be worn to a certain depth before the rail is taken up ? Tes ; 10 per cent, of the weight may be taken oiF the head and yet the rail is safe. 4500. Do you consider that a rail, which had lost only 1 lb. and a fraction per yard would, at home, be considered a safe rail ? Undoubtedly, because the ultimate strength would not be reduced at all. 4501. Have you looked at that rail ? Tou mean the rail that was broken in the Tarana accident ; — yes ; I have looked at it. 4502. Do you consider that a sound rail ? Barring the flaw, it is a fair rail. 4503. That rail has only lost 1 lb. and a fraction to the yard. Do you consider it a safe rail ? With the exception of that flaw it is a sound rail. 4504. I will ask you a question that I asked Mr. Cowdery, and that he did not answer. Perhaps you, as a practical engineer, might answer it. What drop-test should it stand ; how many feet can you drop 1 ton, or how many tons should it stand dropped 1 foot ? Before answering that question, I may say that that rail was never designed to stand a drop-test at all — it was designed to be subject to a bending test. It was designed by Sir John Eowler, and, as I have already stated. Sir John Fowler's tests for New South Wales double-headed rails, weighing 75 lb. per yard, are that the length of rail, 4 feet 6 inches, be placed on iron supports 3 feet 6 inches apart, centres, and then subjected to three blows of 1 ton falling 12 feet, and that under this test it shall deflect not less than 6i inches, nor more than 7i inches, without signs of fracture. 4505. .BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES IKQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 149- 4505. Tou say that that rail was designed by Sir John Fowler ? I did not mean that particular rail. Mr. What I meant was that the double-headed 75-lb. rail was designed by Sir John Fowler, and that the test''^-I-Haycrofl;. he applied to it was what I have just stated. *" — «— i— ^ 4506. Well, ypu, as a practical man, should be able to tell how many tons that rail should stand? It I*' ^*7> 1892. should stand at least between 15 or 16 tons falling a foot, or 1 5 or 16 foot tons without fracture. No man can tell me- what weight would fracture it until he had tried the experiment. 4507. Not an ordinary rail like that ? No ; but then there are other tests that rails should be subjected to, and one of those is for the purpose of ascertaining its toughness. 4508. Tou say that steel rails are not used in many instances because they are dearer than iron ? I am not aware of having said so. 4509. Do you know the relative value of steel and iron ? No ; I do not. 4510. Mr. Brown.'] Are you quite certain that one is dearer than the other ? Well, that is the impression that I gained when I made inquiries into the matter about six years ago. Of course, the market value of steel and iron may have greatly altered since then. 4511. There was a time, of course, when steel rails were dearer than iron rails, but that is not a fact now. Steel rails are really cheaper than iron rails ? I am not surprised to hear it. 4512. Mr. FeJion.] Tou have not given us exactly what your railway experience has been. Would you kindly tell us how long you were in the employ of the various Eailway Companies. I do not wish you to include the place at which you served your time ? My length of time on the Hounslow and Metropolitan, which was the first railway I was employed upon professionally, was eight or nine months. During that , time I was employed upon the extension from Ealing to Hounslow. 4513. What was your particular position there ? I was one of the assistants to Mr. Wells-Owen, the Chief Engineer. 4514. And what other railways were you on in the old country ? I laid out a line from Bridgewater to Highbury, on the London and. South Western. 4515. And how long were you there ? A matter of two months, I think : and during the greater part of six months I travelled over the other railways that I have referred to. 4516. And what other railways were you professionally connected with? Those are the only two that I have been connected with professionally, except as an observant professional man. 4517. Do you read the Engineering News of America ? No ; I cannot say that I do. 4518. Did you ever hear that the Baltimore and Ohio railway were using 80-lb. steel rails ? No ; I did not. 4519. Mr. Brown.] What process of deterioration goes on with an iron rail where the fibrous matter becomes. crystallised, so as to destroy its value as a rail, and how long does it take before that is accom- plished? My own opinion is that no such thing ever happens. I do not believe that the rolling load ever crystallises the fibre in a rail, no matter how long it is down. All that really happens is, judging from the texture of a rail after fracture, that a waste of the material itself takes place as the result of wear and tear. As to whether the interior of a rail appears granular or fibrous after fracture depends entirely upon the nature of the fracture itself, and in my opinion you cannot prove the crystallisation theory by it. 4520. Then you, as an engineer, state that the length of time tlie rail was down would not make any difference ; — suppose that a rail had been laid in 1860, and that there had not been much trafiic over it, is there any process known to engineering by which crystallisation, or some other process destructive ta the filjrous or other nature of the rail, takes place, so as to make it in the course of time unfit for traffic ? Atmospheric action is detrimental to the rail. 4521. President.]. Tou mean rust ? Tes. 4522. But that is not what Mr. Brown is alluding to. We all know that iron left in the open air will in the course of time become rusty. What Mr. Brown means is this : Does the structure of the rail alter ? I am of opinion that it does not alter. 4523. So that, if you put rails down in 1860, and to-day those rails are still there, nothing have gone over them in the meantime — we all know of course that they would be tremendously rusty; — ^but would any other change have taken place ? I cannot see that any other change would have taken place. 4524. Professor Warren.] But if they had been in use ? If they had been in use in the case of a fibrous iron rail, they have stripped to some extent. They would tend to wear upon the bearing surface. 4525. Mr. Brown.] But, in your opinion, that is all ? I am of opinion that there is no such thing as crystallisation due to working, and that a rolling load has no such effect upon a rail so as to change the material from fibres to crystals. 452G. Professor Warren.] Tou do not believe in cold crystallisation ; — ^you do not believe in crystals being formed in metal as the result of rolling loads ? No ; 1 believe that crystals can be formed in manu- facture, but not by use, if stressed within the safe limit. 4527. Mr. Bro'.cn'.] I suppose the Commissioners will furnish some evidence with regard to that ? 4528. Witness.] If you were to put 50 tons of rails down in a store for fifty years, they would be just as good, barring rust, at the end of that time as they are now. 4529. President.] Take this rail. It must have been bad from the very first, must it not ? Tes ; but there was an inherent flaw in it. 4530. Professor Warren.] Is it not a fact that Wohler and Bauxhinger have found that if iron was tested by a stress repeated five million times, it might not break during those five million stresses but that it might break upon the next repetition of the test. How do you account for that ? It is a scientific question that I would not liise to express an opinion upon, but I know that an equally eminent man, Claxkton Fiddler, disagrees with them on that point. Personally I have not given the question a great amount of thought. 4531. But I want to know whether it is not a fact that you can strike a piece of iron a very great number of times without fracturing it and that when you strike it again it will break ? Tes ; it is a fact, but I will not attempt to explain the cause of it, it is attributed to fatigue, 4532. Leaving the crystallisation theory out altogether you say that iron is just as good after it has been in use a certain number of times as when it is new, allowing for ordinary wear and tear? Exactlj ;at , will not deteriorate from age unless it is in use. That is to say the structure itself does not change ia the result of use, provided the stress which it is subjected to does not exceed the safe limit. 150 BAIBWIN IiOCOMOTTTES INQtJIRT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. Mr. J. I. ^.ffgg, lyfot a, rail in use? A rail in use, making due allowance for wear and tear, is as good on the day" Haycroft. jj. jg ^g^^j.^^ ^p ^^ -^ ^^^ ^^ ^-^^ ^^^ -j. ^^^ p^^. ^^^^ -gj ^jj^^; j mean that the material of which the if»"iw^ TBQo ^^^^ ^® composed is as good on the "day it is taken up as on the day it was put down. J»ay. i«y''-4534. Fresident.'] Then stuff that is bad now must hare been bad always ? Undoubtedly. Traffic will not improve it. 4535. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you think that a series of percussive blows on a rail would injure its strength ? For instance, do vou think that the jumping of a wheel would tend to weaken a rail ? It undoubtedly tends to the increase of the stress of the fibres over and above the static stress. Every engineer makes allowance for dynamic action in the different members of the structure,^ more or less according to position, and of course more particularly so on a rail where dynamic action is direct in its incidence. 4536. And does not dynamic action reduce the strength of the rail ? Undoubtedly it does. In cal- Culatino; the strength of" a rail the dynamic action should be taken into consideration. 4537. Well, do you think that the dynamic action has reduced the strength of that rail ? I can hardly go to that length, but it is a foregone conclusion that a rail with a flaw in it would probably suffer most severely from dynamic action. 4538. Suppose that it had received a number of percussive blows on one side, and that we then turned it down and subjected it to the same process on the other side, do you not think that that would tend to weaken the rail ? Undoubtedly, I should think so, as the stress would be reversed. That is the most severe treatment that you can possibly subject iron to — alternate stresses. It has been proved by latter- day investigation to be the most detrimental to the life of any material. 4539. "Would not that alter the structure of the iron ? "Well, I do not hold that theory. I hold that it would affect the fracture, though by different means altogether. There is no means that I am aware of by which the structure of a rail can be ascertained. "Whether it is granular or fibrous or any thing else, all depends upon the nature of the fracture to which it has been subjected. 4540. Professor Warren^ "What about the fracture in the testing machine ? That gives you a better chance of observing the material than a fracture by sudden impact. 4541. Mr. Royle.'] If we were going to test that rail, ought we to do it by steady pressure or by the drop test ? Steady pressure is one way, but the drop test is more in accordance with the treatment that it is subjected to in actual practice. 4542. President.^ Then the drop test is the one that you would apply ? Tes. Alexander Duff, being sworn, said : — Mr. A. Duff. 4542^. President.] How long have you been District Superintendent at Penrith ? For three years. /~ — ^^— N 4543. You have been there ever since the Baldwin engines have been running ? Tes. 10 May, 1892. 4544. Do they haul a greater load than was hauled by the ordinary heavy goods engines that you had previously. I am speaking of the most powerful goods engines that you had on the road before the Baldwin engines came to the Colony. I do not want to know anything about the light goods engines that you had on the road, but I want to know the difference in the load hauled by consolidation engines and the heaviest class of goods engines you had in the Colony before they arrived ? The difference is 25 trucks as against 19. The Baldwin engines haul 25 trucks, and the heaviest of the old engines haul only 19. 4545. Then the Baldwin consolidation engine hauls 6 more trucks ? Tes. 4546. I take it that you are referring to the goods load ? Taking the true load right through. 4547. That is to say that one can haul 6 more trucks than the other ? Tes. 4548. Computing the weight at 8 or 10 tons a truck, as the case may be, do you very often employ a push- up engine ? In all cases. 4.549. Why is that ? It is a question of safety. 4550. But in what respect is it a question of safety ? In the event of a breakaway going up the mountains. 4551. Would there be a danger of a breakaway in the draw- gear with such a load unattended by a shove- up engine. Supposing there was no engine shoving up behind, would there be a danger of the draw-gear breaking ? Certainly, the push-up engine is there for that purpose. 4552. A breakaway would be a very serious matter if it occurred on the mountain gradient? Oh, undoubtedly. 4553. When you are sending your Baldwin passenger engines out, do you often have a pilot engine in front of them ? No. 4554. Was there not a pilot engine last Thursday night? As a matter of fact, I was in the train myself, and I know there was a pilot engine. 4555. Can you tell me what load was on the train? No, I cannot ; I was away from duty attending the inquest. 4536. Well, as a matter of fact, there were 161- carriages on the train ? I do not think they would employ a PUot engine with a load of 16| carriages. 4557. Do you consider they should have a pilot engine to assist in drawing that load ? If they had, I think it must have been for some other reason. 4558. A Baldwin engine takes the mail train at night, does it not ? Tes. 4559. Does she ever have a pilot ? No. 4560. Does she ever have an engine shoving up behind ? No. 4561. No assistance at all? No. 4562. About what speed per mile would they liave to run between Penrith and Katoomba in order to keep her time-table time ? Between 14 and 15 miles an hour. 4563. Do you know whether there have been many fractures of the draw-gear on the trains that the Baldwin engines have been hauling? Not particularly many. 4564. But I imagine that any breakage that did occur would have to be reported to you ? Tes, in every case. 4565. Have you received many such reports ? No. 4566. Can you say how many you have received ? No ; I cannot give you the number, but I can say that the percentage is no greater now than it was before the Baldwin engines were introduced into the mountain traffic. 4567. BALBWnr lOCOMOTlTES IlfQTTIET COMMISSIOIT — ^MINTTTES OF ETIDENCE. 151 4567. Does that apply to the passenger or the goods stock ? To the goods stock. Mr. A. Duff. 4568. Tou could not have a break-away with the passenger stock, could you, as it is fitted with the '' "-— -^ automatic break ? No ; not very well. r b 10 ^^^ ^^^^ 4569. But is the draw-gear ever broken in the passenger traffic ? No ; not to my knowledge. 4570. Mr. Hoyle.'] Is the draw-gear very much stronger on the passenger than it is on the goods stock ? "W'e use the screw couplings. 4571. Tou do not use them with the goods stock? Not with goods stock, but we do with live stock. 4572. In what part of the draw-gear has the breakage generally occurred ? That depends upon circum- stances ; jou very seldom get the breakages alike ; the breakage might occur on the rear of the train, or it might happen in the centre- of the train, but it has happened very seldom in the front part of the train. 4573. And 1 suppose that jerks will account for all that? In many cases, no doubt. 4574. And did you find the breakages as numerous when the older engines were doing the hauling ? I believe that they were greater six months ago than they are now. 4575. How long have the Baldwin engines been running ? Not more than six months, I think. 4576. Can you give me a record of the breakages ? Yes ; we can supply you with that, I have no doubt. 4577. Professor Warren.'] They have been supplied already, and are now with the Government Printer. 4578. When you were employing the most powerful engines you had in the service before the Baldwin engines, had you a shove-up engine then ? Yes ; previous to the present Commissioners taking office I ran more single trains over the mountains than we do to-day. We run them now — particularly double ; very seldom single trains. 4579. But when you had a load of nineteen carriages, did you then employ a push-up engine ? In what part of the journey are you speaking of ? 4580. From Penrith to Katoomba ? The utmost load that we should take previous to the introduction of the Baldwin engines was a load of fourteen carriages over that part of the line. 4581. Fourteen carriages without assistance ? Yes ; without assistance. 4582. And when you had a load of nineteen carriages you had assistance ? Yes. 4583. Did you ever try to haul nineteen carriages without the assistance of another engine ? Yes. 4584. Did you ever do it? Yes. 4585. Do you remember an occasion, some sliort time ago, that an engine known as the passengers express engine preceded the Baldwin engine with a load, and got stuck up on the mountains ? Yes. 4586. And do you know what engine it was that was stuck up ? I cannot speak from memory. 4587. And do you know what class it belonged to ? She was one of the old class of engines, and I think that the load was about equal to nine carriages. 4588. Equal to nine carriages, and she got stuck up with it ? I believe she did. 4589. Could you tell me what particular engine it was that got stuck up in that way ? I could not tell you the number of the engine from memory. 4590. Could you tell us this : if the Baldwin engine could haul the load that they say she could, and she was able to take the additional train as we have been informed she did, why did you send the first engine at all with those nine carriages ? She did not take the whole of the train on. 4591. The driver swore before this Commission that the train got in his way — I am referring to the driver of the Baldwin engine — and that he had to take the whole of it on. 4592. Why did you not put them on the Baldwin engine in the first instance ? Because it was over the limit of the load laid down for the guidance of the officers. 4593. Is it not a fact that when you run engines to shove up the trains hauled by the Baldwin engines the engine used for shoving up comes back light ? It all depends upon the need of the traffic. 4594. Is it a frequent occurrence for these engines to run back light ? Yes. 4595. Of course, you know nothing about the engineering branch of your service at all ? No ; nothing. 4596. Mr. Fehon.'] Previous to the Baldwin engines running on the mountains with passenger trains, you invariably run the trains with two engines ? Yes ; it was the rule to do so, not the exception. 4597. The exception is to run one ? Yes. 4598. And the two engines used to keep very bad time as compared to the good time kept by the one engine now ? Yes ; the one engine keeps very much better time than the two did. 4599. You were asked about the breaking of the draw-gear ; — breaking of the draw-gear occurs with all engines, does it not ? Undoubtedly. 4600. Has the draw-gear been very much strengthened by the Commissioners since they took office ? Undoubtedly. 4601. Throughout the whole of the goods stock ? Yes. 4602. You stated just now that twenty-five trucks was a load as against nineteen as the load of the old engines ;— just think again of the particulars — consider whether yoii are right ? Yes ; I am thinking — a through load to Bathurst ; but the load that we take from Penrith to Eatoomba is twenty-two trucks as against fourteen — a much greater percentage. 4603. Twenty -five trucks against nineteen is like the ruling load; — but is it twenty-five or twenty-eight? It is twenty-eight. When I said twenty-five I was thinking of the number of trucks hauling when they contained live stock. Live stock trains are much heavier than goods trains. 4604. Is it your practice to assist all goods trains with a push-up engine ? We do it for safety. 4605. And it has been the custom for years past ? Yes. 4606. In fact since the Western road was opened ? Yes. 4607. Mr. Brown.'] So far as your knowledge goes, and your observation enables you to judge, you consider the Baldwin engines suitable to the New South Wales railways ? Speaking from a traffic point of view ? 4608. I say as far as your knowledge goes, and as far as your observation enables you to judge, do you consider the Baldwin engines suitable for the railways of New South Wales ? I do. WEBNESBAT, 4616. Mr. Fehon. 4617. Mr. Hoyle. 4618. Mr. MJion: 152 BALBWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. WEBNJESBAY, 11 MAT, 1892. {The Commission met in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Office, at 2 o'clock .] ^xtsmi: — P. E. EOGERS, Esq., Q.C, President. Peopessoe WAEEEN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDER BEOWN, Esq., J.P. Jeremiali Tuite being sworn, said : — Mr. J. Tuite. 4609. I am manager for Messrs. Proudfoot & Co. ' — -^ ^ 4610. Mr. Royle.'] Previous to going on with the evidence of this witness I wish to make a request to the 11 May, 1892. Commission. I find in the evidence given by Mr. Goodchap yesterday, that he made certain statements which reflect upon the professional ability of one of my witnesses— reflections which I consider are likely to do my witness, Mr. Midelton, serious injury in his profession. I wish to know if the Commission will allow Mr. Midelton to read, without comment, the minutes of his appointment to the position he occupied as Engineer, the letter of thanks he received from Mr. Qjodchap during his absence from the position of Engineer, and the minutes upon his reinstatement. They will not take more than ten minutes or a quarter of an hour in reading, and it is a matter of very great importance to my witness that this matter should be cleared up. 4611. Mr. Brown {for President).] I do notsee ]iowwe can go into a matterof that kind. In the inquiry yesterday, you asked a question of Mr. Goodchap with the full knowledge of the responsibilty attaching to it. I do not think that I can comply with your request ; I have allowed you to make a statement here so that it may go into the report of our proceedings, and that will perhaps have the same effect as if Mr. Midelton were permitted to read the documents you have referred to. 4612. Mr. Royle.'] I also wish to ask that the cost-book or order-book be produced by the Divisional Engineer of Newcastle, Mr. Halligan, dating from the 1st June, 1891, to the present. 4613. Mr. Brown.] Tou have iio objection to furnish it, I presume, Mr. Eehon ? 4614. Mr. Fehon.] Tes ; I have a very stroug objection. 4615. Mr. Brown.] What objection is it r* _ - - rpj^g objection is to the cost-book. I do not know exactly what it would include. I want it from the 1st June, 1891, up to the present.'' That would include the whole of the working of the railways during that period. That is to say, long before the Baldwin engines were thought of. If Mr. Hoyle wants any information with regard to any particular item, we shall be glad to furnish it to him. 4619. Mr. Brown.] What objection can there be to having the cost-book here for the use of Mr. Hoyle? ' 4620. Mr. Soyle.] I want the cost and order-book from the 1st June, 1891, up to the present. I want the book for the use of the oflacers of the Commission to pick out certain information. I wish to point out what I want to them. 4621. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Pehon.)] I cannot see any objection with regard to its production. I know I had to supply a cartload of books myself before now for the purposes of inquiry. 4622. Mr. Hoyle.] I also want the casualty books since the Baldwin engines commenced to run, and the fitters' repair book to be produced for each district from the commencement of the running of the Baldwin engines, for similar purpose. 4623. Mr. Brown.] I suppose you have no objection, Mr. Eehon ; as you have agreed to one I suppose you will agree to the other. 4624. Mr. Fehon.] It means obtaining the books from all parts of the line, wherever the Badlwin engines have been running. 4625. Mr. Brown.] Perhaps Mr. Hoyle will give the Commission some reason why these books should be produced. - 4626. Mr. Hoyle.] My reason is this. I am not at all satisfied with the return up to the present. I may want it for purposes of verification and comparison. 4627. Mr. Brown.] Tou want it for the purpose of correction ; you are not satisfied with the present return, you say. 4628. Mr. Fehon.] We shall produce the book and the ofScer who made the return, and the return shall be ratified by him ; but at the same time I think it is a gross insult to us to say that we furnished the Commission with wrong returns. We furnished the Commission with these returns, and are prepared to take all responsibility in connection with them, and I think it is a gross insult to question our honour in this matter. 4629. Mr. Hoyle.] I do not question the honesty of the Commissioners, but I wish to have these books simply because I am not satisfied with the return I have seen. 4680. Professor Warren.] But there is another return, Mr. Hoyle, which perhaps you have not seen. 4631. Mr. Hoyle.] If there is another return I desire to have time to look into its contents. The return I saw was not complete. 4632. Mr. Brown.] Then you withdraw your request for all these books to be produced ? 4633. Mr. Hoyle.] No ; not for the cost-books. 4634. Mr. Fehdn.] Will you specify what cost-books you want ? 4635. Mr. Brown.] He says he wants them from the time of the importation of the Baldwin engines. 4636. Mr. Hoyle.] I want them from the 1st June, 1891, up to the present dates, the cost and order books ; there may be more than one book. 4637. Mr. Fehon.] I cannot see how the production of these books bears on the inquiry. If Mr. Hoyle wants to make any inquiry, we will produce the man whom it concerns ; Jjut we object to hand our books over to Mr. Hoyle or Mr. Midelton, who seems to be the prime mover in this matter. 4637|. Mr. Hoyle.] I have before stated that Mr. Midelton or anyone else has had nothing to do in the investigation of this matter. I take the responsibility of my own actions in this or any other case. 4638. Mr. Brown.] Tou have no right to say that, Mr. Tehon. 4639. Mr. Fehon.] Well, they will be supplied here in the custody of the Commissioners, and you may see them yourself; they will be supplied in that way, but not to Mr. Midelton. 4640. Mr. Hoyle (to Witness).] I believe you are manager for Messrs. Proudfoot & Co. ? Tes. 4641. Where are you employed ? Erom the 92 to the 143, at the bottom points of Bathurst district. 4642. Have you been employed always in that district ? Well, for about a month or six weeks, some eighteen months ago, I was working between Springwood and Bathurst. 4643. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIET COMMISSIOIf — MINUTES OP EVIDENCJ!. XS3 4643. Had you any other experience of the line before you became manager? Not on any other portion. Mr. J. Tuite. 4644. How long have you been between the bottom points and Bathurst? About eighteen months. /-^-*-— >, 4645. Have you carefully examined all portions of the road ? Yes. ^^ ^"■y* ^^^^• 4646. Did you walk the road on foot or go on a tricycle ? I walked. 4647. And you carefully examined the road ? Yes. 4648. Were you on board the train on the night of the Tarana accident ? Yes. 4649. "Were you asked any questions by the police relative to the state of the road on the night of the accident ? A policeman asked me to tell him what I. knew about the accident. 4650. Mr. Brown.'] "We cannot have a question about the police. 4651. Mr. Hoyle.'] "Well, what is the state of the road between the bottom points and Bathurst? Some of it is in first-class order, and some inferior. 4652. Do you consider it safe for the Baldwin engines to run over the whole of the road? "Well, portions of it are quite safe. Other portions I do not consider safe, taking the weight of the road into considera- tion. I do not say this with regard to the Baldwin engines only, but to other engines as well. 4653. Mr. Brown.'] He says he does not confine himself to the Baldwin engines. 4654. Mr. Royle.] You do not consider the road in some places safe for the Baldwin or any engines ? Portions I say. 4655. "What portions ? Different parts. 4656. In particular parts you say ? 4657. Professor Warren^ Grive us a list as far as you can say ? "Well, from the 114 miles 60 chains to the 124 miles ; that is one part. 4658. That is on the "Western line ? Yes. 4639. Mr. Hoylei] Do you know the stone bridge at Bowenfels ? I have seen it. 4660. Do you know anything about it ? I have seen flags and flagmen there to steady the train. 4661. Have there been many rails broken in your district between Bowenfels and Bathurst ? I have seen two. 4662. "When ? One on the morning of the accident, and the other some months ago. 4663. Is that since the Baldwin engines have been running ? Yes. 4664. Professor Warren.] "When you spoke of one on the morning of the accident, you meant I presume the particular one that broke ? Yes. 4665. Mr. Hoyle.] And you have seen one other besides that ? Yes. 4666. "What distance are the sleepers apart? They vary from 10^ inches, that is the joint sleeper, to 3 ft. 2 in., and 3 ft. 3 in. On curves they are not so far apart. 4667. Mr. Bfown..] "What are they in the 'curves? They are from 2ft. 5 in. to 2 ft. 7 in. 466S. There are some on the straight at 3 feet ? Yes, and over 3 feet. 4669. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you consider the road is in a fit state at the place you have indicated for the Baldwin engine to travel over it at the rate of 30 miles an hour ? Portions I consider are not safe. 4670. Professor Warren.] Those portions you have indicated ? Yes, as far as I know. I was not employed to look after the road. I was employed to look after the interests of my emyloyers. 4671. But you know this because you had to look after that section ? I have seen it ; I have "been on the road. 4672. Mr. Brown.] That is, you know it from yoiir own actual observation ? Yes. 4673. Mr. Hoyle] Do you know if the train slowed down anywhere else except at Bowenfels ? Yes, at Tarana, at the 120 miles. 4674. Professor 'PFarren.] That is the last of the Solitary Creek bridges? Yes ; they call it the Solitary Creek. 4675. 3fr. Hoyle.] Did you notice many chairs broken on the road ? Yes, a good few. 4676. And many keys out? Yes. In hot weather an awful lot of keys come out, but in wet weather not so many, the damp swells the wood and holds the keys, but in hot weather the keys cannot help coming out very well. 4677. If the sleepers were properly packed and were kept in a rigid position, would that hold the keys in, or would they work out more if the sleepers were loose ? If there was ballast on the outside of the road it would help to keep the keys in, but in any case in wet weather it would not be so bad, since the timber swells up, consequently the Iteys are not so liable to come out. 4678. Can you tell us whether the road between Sodwalls and Tarana has been lifted ? Yes, it has all been lifted. 4079. Lifted and reballasted ? It has been lifted on old ballast. The portions we have relaid between Sodwalls and Tarana have been lifted on new ballast. The only road we have lifted 80-lb. rails have been put down with new ballast, the others have been lifted on old ballast. 4680. "Was the new ballast put on after the road had been lifted with the old ballast ? Yes. 4681. Did you take the ballast from under the sleepers to lift the road ? In some parts, but in other parts we had sufficient, there was no occasion for doing it. 4682. "What do you know about the condition of the sleepers ? The majority of the sleeper.f are very good. The ironbark ones we have taken out are nearly as good as the new ones we are putting down. 4683. How long have they been put down ? I do not know. Perhaps twenty-one years. The chairs have worked into the sleepers and made them loose. 4684. "Would the working into the sleepers make the chair loose ? Yes. 4685. Are there straps placed between the side of the cutting and the end of the sleepers to keep the line in position ? Yes. 4686. Professor JVarren.] That is on the reversed curves ? On a close radius curve, about 22, 1 think. 4687. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you think from the time you have been on the road that the Baldwin engines have knocked the road about much ? Yes ; I do. 1 do not mean to say that the 70-lb. rail, with the sleepers closer together, would not be able to carry heavier engines. 4688. If the sleepers were closer together it would make the road more rigid ? Yes. 4689. Can you tell us what is the condition of the rails on the portion you have done at Sodwalls and beyond, and on the Tarana portion ? Some are very fair and others are inferior. 4690. Did you notice any of them at the joints ? Yes ; they are all up and down, most of the rails are crippled, and no man could make a good road of it. 6— F 4691. 15* BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. J. Tuite. 4691. jj^^. Brown.] Tou said just now that you did not specially refer to the Baldwin engines, what did ,,0"'*'^''^ you mean bv that? There are Yankee engines which I consider almost as bad on the road as the 4692. And any other engines ? The lighter engines I do not say anything about. 4693. Can you speak generally about the rolling-stock of New South Wales ? Yes. 4694. And that includes it all? Tes. 4695. You say with regard to the whole of them, in what way do you explain ' that the road is unsafe ? I consider the sleepers in some places too far apart, and a lot of the rails are crippled and cannot be made' good. 4696.. Professor Warren.'] Do you refer to the iron rails, the 75-lb. to the yard? Yes. 4697. You say the road wants re-sleepering and new rails in certain places, and then it would be perfectly safe for ordinary practical work ? Yes ; I think so. 4698. Mr. Broim.] Would that be a heavy expenditure ? I do not think it would. 4699. Is there anything now so far as the public is concerned to alarm them with regard to the traffic on the road ; need the public be in any way apprehensive with regard to these roads. You must remember that you are giving evidence for the Commission with a large responsibility, and I now ask you if the road if safe, and whether there is any necessity to create any public alarm with regard to the state of the road ? No ; I do not think so. 4700. You are speaking for Mr. Proudfoof, and you are a practical man ? I am not speaking for Mr. Proudfoot. 4701. But you have been under him, and he is a large railway contractor and understands his business, and you are speaking with a practical knowledge of the line, do you say now that the road is safe so far as the public are concerned, and they need not be under any apprehension with regard to them ? 4702. Professor Warren.] The 114 miles 60 chains to the 124 miles is, I take it, mostly of iron rails ? I believe there is a little steel rail. 4703. Do you consider that portion bad also ? Yes ; for the sleepers are wider apart. 4704. It is bad then because the sleepers are too widely spaced ? lies. 4705. And the rest of the road you say is bad because the rails are crippled, that is, practically worn, out ? Yes. 4706. Then they are bad for that reason, and also because the sleepers are too widely spaced ? Yes. 4707. You say the engines still slow down over Tarana bridge ? Yes. 4708. Do you- know the reason for that. Tarana is the last of the bridges that are known as the Solitary Creek bridges. There are about six of them I think, and five of them are before you come to Tarana. Tarana is a double spanned bridge, but the others I think are single spanned. Do you kiKJW why they slow down there ? Yes, they slow down at Bowenfels for about 4 or 5 miles an hour. 4709. Bowenfels is a stone bridge ? Yes. 4710. Did you ever notice them slow down between any of the bridges between Bowenfels and Taraua? No, I cannot say that I have. 4711. So far as I know tbero is no difference between Tarana and the other bridges, they are all Solitary Creek bridges ; you say you noticed broken chairs ? That is on different portions of the line. 4712. You say you think the Baldwin engines kncck the road about. Do you mean the Baldwin engines which were running on the road before the recent importa.tions, you were" not referring to the Baldwin engines shown in the photographs placed in this room ? No, not particularly. 4713. You say they knock them about, and the other engines also knopk them about ? Yes. 4714. Do you think that if these sleepers were more closely spaced, and the iron rails were replaced with say, 71-lb. steel rails, there would be any danger ? Not if they were properly lifted and ballasted, and the sleepers put closer together and the rails renewed. If that were done, I think the road should be competent to carry a heavier rolling stock than now. 4715. If the permanent-way were put into position, and the present rails replaced by heavier ones, you say the road would carry heavier engines than the Baldwin engines ? Yes. 4716. Mr. Fehon.] Are you now in the employment of Mr. Proudfoot ? Yes, sir. 4717. Are you working on the road now ? No, I am looking after his plant at Tarana. 4718. You are not working on the road then ? No. 4719. Your contract has been discontinued ? So far as my part is concerned, I do not know with regard to others. 4720. What was your contract with the Commissioners? It was for re-laying and re-ballasting. 4721. And the Commissioners have stopped Mr. Proudfoot from relaying and reballasting ? Yes. 4722. You say you have seen broken chairs ; well, I suppose you have seen broken chairs whenever you were engaged on permanent- way works ? It is the usual thing. 4723. Have you seen a larger proportion than is customary on most roads upon this one ? Yes ; I have seen as many as four chairs broken in a 21-foot length. 4724. Probably that is the result of an accident ? I cannot say ; but I have seen as many as four in one 21-foot length of rail. 4725. You say that the keys dropped out, and that they might be kept in with sufficient ballast ; now is it customary to ballast the road in order to keep the keys in ? No. 4726. Speaking of the spacing ; will you tell the Commission what the spacing is that you have had to carry out under the Commission from centre to centre on the road you have relaid, what is the standard ? Prom 10 inches to 2 feet 8 inches. 4727. 2 feet' 7 inches you mean ? Yes ; 2 feet 7 inches. 4728. That is f /om 10 inches then to 2 feet 7 inches, and that is the maximum allowed in relaying ; now with 2 feet 7 inch spacing, and a 71-lb. steel rail, or an 80-lb. iron rail, would you not consider that road secure ? Yes. 4729. What rail have you been relaying with ? 80-lb. rails. 4730. That is the rail they are supplying in all relaying ? Yes. 4731. And for some time past ; in fact, during the time you have been on the road ? Yes. 4732. How long have you been on the road ? About 18 months. 4733. And you are laying 80-lb. rails, and were doing so long before the Baldwin engines arrived here? Yes. 4734. BAIBWIK LOCOMOTIVES IITQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 155 4734. Tou say that the road geti3 knocked out of line by these engines, but I understand you also to say Mr, J. Tuite. it is knocked about by all engines more or less ; was the road knocked out as much last year by the Yankee r**-*-— ~\ engines as it is by the Baldwin's ? No ; do you mean at the end of last year ? ^^ ^^T' ^892. 4735. Yes ; what is called the Mogul and the Scotch- Yankee engines ? Yes, it was ; but it was on account of our lifting the road with the old ballast, and there was not enough ballast to keep the road in repair ; any engine would at that time I believe be liable to knock the road about. 4736. "Would two engines coupled together hurt the road more than one heavy engine ? No, I do not think it would. 4737. Professor Warren.] \_Producing a drawing of the old Consolidation engine.] Did that engine knock the road about ? Yes ; if the road was not in good repair that engine would knock it about. 4738. Did you notice whether this engine knocked it about more than the present engine, the newly imported engine ? I do not say it does. 4739. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you consider that, presuming the road had been properly ballasted with new ballast, the Baldwin engines would still have a tendency to knock the road about, that is, taking the sleepers as they are and not as they are going to be, — the width thev are apart. Do you consider that the road would then have been perfectly safe for the Baldwin engine ? "With the same rails ? 4740. Yes, with the same rails and the same sleepers ? I have just said that I would not think them safe. 4741. Mr Fehon.] How many miles have the Commissioners relaid in your length ? 14 miles, as near as I can remember. 4742. And you have relaid the worst portions of the road, and the inspectors and engineers have supervised the work. 4743. Mr. Brown.] I think that goes without saying ; you would commence with the worst portion of course? (Witness) We simply did what we were told. Alexander Ferrier Watson, being sworn, said : — 4744. I am Divisional Engineer in the employment of the Eailway Commissioners. I have Deen in the Mr. employment of the Railway Department for seven and a half years. A. F. Watson, 4745. Mr. Soyle.] Will you kindly tell us where your district extends to ? I had charge originally from /— ~-^'— '^ Springwood to Bourke ; I have now charge from Wallerawang to Bourke. ^^ '^^Yt 1892. 4746. Did you ever make any representations to the Commissioners that the road was being injured by the use of the Baldwin engines ? No, sir. 4747. Are you sure about that ? Quite sure. 4748. Did you make a report at all ? Yes, I made a report on the effect on the road. 4749. And what was the effect on the road ? — 4750. Mr. Brown.] Grive it to us just as far as your memory serves ; if you cannot remember the contents of the report, then probably the Commissioners will supply it to us. 4751. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you report that the effect of these engines was injurious? I reported that the road was being knocked a little out of line. Until it was reballasted, and when th-e ballast was put on it stopped that action. 4752. Do you consider the road from Wallerawang to Bathurst is now in a fit state to carry the Baldwin engines ? Yes, sir, I do. 4753. You do ? Yes. 4754. Do you know the' strength of the bridges ? The ultimate strength, do you mean? 4755. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Hoyle).] Tell him the weight of the engines passing over them. Do you know the weight of the Baldwin engines ? Yes. 4756. The passenger engine is about 92 tons,, and the consolidated godds engine from 97 to 98 tons? Yes, so I understand. 4757. Do you know the weight on the driving-wheels ? On the passenger engine it is about 15 tons 6 cwt., and on the goods 15 tons 9 cwt. 4758. Mr. Hoyle.] Now, do you consider that with that weight on the driving-wheel that the whole of the road between Wallerawang and Bathurst is perfectly safe ? Yes, I think it is safe. 4759. Can you tell us how the sleepers are placed on that section ? On the iron road 3 feet 1 inch, and the joint sleepers are about 2 feet 4 inches apart generally speaking, on the curves they are closer. 4760. Can you tell us the distance from centre to centre of the sleepers on the curve and on the straight respectively ? On the straight they are about .3 feet 1 inch, and on the curves they are about 2 feet 10 inches to 2 feet 8 inches. I mean from centre to centre. 4761. Professor Warren.] What is the distance of the joint sleepers on the curve? Two feet two inches. 4762. Mr. Hoyle.] Are you taking the centres ? Yes. 4763. In what condition are the rails between the 117 miles and the 223 miles beyond Bathurst — do you know ? There are various rails on that portion ; there are iron double-headed, steel double-headed, and steel T rails on that length. 4?64. Mr. Brown.] G-enerally, Mr. Hoyle wants to know the condition of the length ? Steel rails are in first-class order ; the iron rails are not in such good order. 4765. Mr. Hoyle.] Not in good order ? Pair order. 4766. Do you know when the rails were made — I mean the iron rails ? There are various brands — the Parkgate, and so on. 4767. Is it a fact that when the outer skin is worn you turn a great many of these rails ? Yes, they are turned when they get too thin or flat, or when they bulge. 4768. What do you think would be the proportion of the weight lost by the wearing off from the rail — what proportion do you reckon would be worn off when it becomes necessary to turn a rail round ? About 2 to 3 lbs. per yard. 4769. You then turn the rail over, and that process of decrease goes on upon the other side ? Yes. 4770. Do you know if there have been many chairs broken between Tarana and Bathurst ? Yes, sir ; there have been many chairs broken. 4771. Have there been more since the Baldwin engines have been running ? That is a hard question to answer, and could not be answered unless by counting the numbers. We have always found broken chairs on the road, and are continually changing them. 4772. Have you found more since the Baldwin engines have been running ? — 4773. 130 PAIiDWIN' I,OCOUOTIV£S IXQTJinT C0SIiIISSION''-7MIJrPTES Or EVIDENCE. Mr. 4'773. _3f^_ Brown.] Tou can say generally what you think ?- Since the road was lifted I have found more. A. F. ■Watson. 4»7y^_ jUr. Ilo^le.] "Were you ever notified that the road where the accident happened was not m a fit IIMmiroo ^^^*® t° J^un on anA wanted repairs ? No, sir. juiay, xoj^. ^^yg jj^^^ ^^^ received any complaints from your inspectors or gangers about the state of the road since the Baldwin engines commenced running ? They all complain of tho work. 4776. Since the Baldwin engines have been running ? No ; generally in the busy season. 4777. Have you received more complaints since the Baldwin engines have been running either from , inspectors or gangers ? No, I cannot say that I have. 4778. Did vou ever make a request that this portion of the road should be relaid ? Yes, sir, I have. 4779. Whv ? Because the sooner we put down steel rails the stronger and better our road will be. 4780. Do you mean in view of the weight of the rolling-stock, &c. ? No, generally, to keep the road better for general traffic. It is not on account of the Baldwin engines. 4781. When was that request made ? When we started relaying, about September or October, 1890. 4782. Is it a fact that new materials were laid along the line for that portion ? Tes, sir, they were laid along a portion of the road. 4783. That is the portion where the accident occurred ? Yes, there were some rails laid along there. 478i. And why were they removed ? Because a programme of the amount of work to be done was curtailed. 4785. Do you know why ? 4786. Mr. Brown.] He cannot tell you. I suppose it was want of money. 4787. Mr. MJion.] Yes, sir. " ' 4788. Mr. Hoyle.] Has not a portion of that road been lifted and packed with new ballast within the last twelve months ? Yes, a good deal of it. 4789. Which portions ? Prom September and October, 1890, up to date, we have relaid and repacked with new ballast 13i miles between Wallerawang and Tarana. 4790. When the road was packed between Wallerawang and Tarana with old ballast, did you expect the road to stand then ? Yes; we expected it to stand, but being lifted it would take a little time to con- solidate again. We lifted tbe old road on top of the old ballast, and it requires consolidating and boxing up with new ballast. 4791. Mr. Brown.] That is the case with every road ? Yes, sir. 4792. Have you found many broken fish-plates on your length of road lately ? Yes, sir. 4793. Did you find many before the Baldwin engines commenced to ran? They were not.reported specially. We did find broken fish-plates. 4794. How many rails have been broken in your division within the last nine months ? - Nine months^ do you mean broken across in two pieces ? 4795. Either broken or fractured in any way — cracked ? Yes ; we had a good many. 4796. Since the Baldwin engines commenced to run ? Yes, and before. 4797. Did you find the proportion any greater since the Baldwin engines commenced to run ? We found more fractured rails because the road has been lifted, which shows us more of the defects — because the road is raised and all the defects are visible. 4798. Then it could not be safe if sunk into the old ballast. 4799. One of your witnesses told us that in one case it almost took a microscope to see a fracture. 4800. Mr. Soi/le.] Do you think, taldng the road between Tarana and Bathurst, that it would be perfectly safe for a passengor engine to run on that road at a pace of 40 miles an hour ? 4801. Mr. Fehon.] Where ? 4802. Mr. Soyle.] Between Wallerawang and Bathurst. I want to know if there are portions of this road between these points that it would be safe to run the Baldwin passenger engine over at a speed of over 40 miles an hour ? Yes ; I should think it would be safe on the long straights. 4803. You think it would be perfectly safe with the sleepers placed as they are, and with your knowledge of the condition of some of the rails ? Yes ; I think so. 4804. Professor Warren^ On the straight portions you say ? Yes. 4805. What about the curves ? The speed must be limited round the curves. 4806. How much ? To 28 miles an hour. 4807. Then you could run round a 10-chain curve with perfect safety on this road at 20 miles an hour ? I have only one 10-chain curve, and that is laid with steel. ,The next smallest curve I have is a 12-chain radius. 4808. AVell, say a 12-chain curve at 28 miles an hour — do you think that would be safe ? Yes ; I think so. 4809. Mr. Fekon.] The speed is 25 miles an hour round the curves, and not 28 miles. 4810. Mr. Broivn.] The witness says that it is 28 miles an hour, and that is what the question was based on. 4811. Mr. Hoyle.] Well, say 25 miles an hour — do you think it would be perfectly safe to take that curve at that rate ? Yes, sir. The reason I said 28 miles an hour was on account of the super-elevation of the rail which is made to suit. 4812. Do you consider it safe to run any of these engines over the bridges of your district at this rate ? Not at a high rate of speed. 4813. Have any of the bridges in your district been strengthened ? Was the Solitary Creek bridge strengthened ? That is an iron bridge ; that has not been strengthened. 4814. And the wooden bridges ? Some of them ; we have strengthened small flood-openings. 4815. But have they been strengthened since you have been in that district P No, not generally speaking. 1 have put some little additions to the bridges, but I have not strengthened them all generally. 4816. Have you used the slow-down notice to any of the drivers passing over the road between Bathurst Wallerawang ? Yes ; over the bridges. 4817. And not over any portion of the road ? No, except where lifting or relaying. 4818. I mean, you know, slow over the bridges ; and, except where you state it is unsafe, you travel on the road at a high rate of speed ? Yes. 4819. Do you consider that if we had bad wet weather on the mountains that these engines would still b&safe to run at the speed indicated on portions of the road between Wallerawang and Bathurst ? Yes, sir, because the ballast has been added to. 4820. SALDWISr LOCOMOTIVES HrQiriEf COMMISSION-^MISUTES OS ETIDEirOfl, 157 ^,820, Are there portions where you have recently had no new ballast, where they have not been ballasted Mr. recently ? Tes. A. F. Watson 4821. Would it be safe on those portions ? Tes ; between Kelso and Bathurst there has been no ballast. -CT! — ^TT^ 4822. How long is it since the order has been issued to slow down over the bridges ? Seven or eight months ^^ ^^^> ^^^^• ago. 4823. Are there any portions of the road in your district where it is in a worse state than that portion where the accident occurred ? Tes, I think so. 4824. What portion is that? Between the 121 miles and 18 chains and the 124 miles. 4825. And would it be perfectly safe for these engines to run over these portions at 30 miles an hour? Tes, I think so ; it is a question of worn rails, and the rails are very much worn. 4826. Were you on board the train when the accident hapjjened ? No, I was not. 4827. Can you tell us whether there has been a rail broken between the scene of the accident and Tarana since the accident occurred— any broken rail ? Not actually broken across ; there have been rails found, by careful examination, having little flaws in them. 4828. Cracks ? Tes ; cracks, fractures. 4829. But not actually broken across ? No. 4830. Are you not now renewing with iron rails many of the old rails between Tarana station and the scene of the accident ; are you not now taking out a number of rails and putting others in their place ? Tes, sir ; we have been doing that every day both before and after the accident. 4831. Have you had any extra men on besides the usual gang on the road lately ? Tes ; I have put on temporary men to assist the fettlers with extra work. 4832. Have they ever complained to you since the Baldwin engines commenced to run that the work was too great, and they found it difficult to keep the road in a proper condition ? They say that a great deal of time is taken up changing rails and keys and chairs both before and since. 4833. But have you more complaints since than before these engines commenced to run ? I cannot say ; it has been a general complaint for the last five or six years. Men brought from the Western line, where the T rails are used, have found the work so hard that they have complained. 4834. Mr. Brown.] Do you consider, from what you know of the Baldwin engines, that they are suitable for the permanent-way of the railways of New South Wales ? Certainly, sir. 4835. Professor Warren.'] Tou say that the engines slow down over certain bridges ; — did you receive instructions from the guard of that, or was it due to reports made to you ? 1 did it on my own respon- sibility. 4836. What speed did the engines run over the Solitary Creek bridges? They run over five bridges 15 miles an hour, but on one bridge the speed is limited to 10 miles — that is at Tarana. 4837. Do you consider them to be safe with the trains travelling at those speeds ? I do. 4838. I suppose you base your opinion on what you actually know of the bridges ? Tes ; I tested them for deflection. 4839. And what did you infer from the test ; — the deflection produced by a heavy engine, what does it tell you? I noticed a marked difference between a low speed of 20 miles an hour and a high speed of 40 mites an hour. 4849. And how did your infer the safety or otherwise of the bridge from these deflections? We found that the cross-girders deflected moi"e than the main ones. 4841. Do you consider then that the cross-girders are weak and the main girders strong enough ; — what, in fact, is the weak point ? The cross-girders. 4842. Tou consider the main girders are fairly strong ? Tes; fairly strong. That is my opinion. 48 f3. What do you consider to be a safe stress on a bridge of 60-foot span, loaded with an ordinary engine — a bridge such as the Solitary bridge ? I think it should not be strained more than 5 tons to the square inch of tension. 4844. Do you know what the strain is in the case of the Solitary Creek bridges ? No ; I have not worked it out. 4845. What is the good of giving an opinion if you have not worked it out ? I give it from the deflection. 4816. Can you infer the stress from the deflection ? Tou can infer the stability of the bridge. 4817. The stability of the bridge differs from the strength, and the strength differs from the stiffness ; — what do you infer ? That the bridge is not stiff enough. 4848. Tes, that is very true; you did network out what must have been the stress on bridges in conse- quence of that deflection? No ; I think that was worked out by yourself and another gentleman on the Eoyal Commission held with regard to bridges some years ago, and you then made certain recommenda- tions to strengthen these bridges. 4849. Tou remember that ; then I will quote from that report the total load on the Solitary Creek bridges ; it is 6'75 tons per square inch in tension ; — would you consider that bridge to be strong enough ? The load should not be more than 5 tons. 4850. Well, the Baldwin Consolidation engines weigh more than the Baldwin engines used in this par- ticular case, and therefore, if it was not safe for the ordinary Consolidation engine, would you not consider it less safe with a greater load of the newly-imported engines ? Tes, sir ; but does it not depend upon the base covered ? 4851. The bridge is 60-foot span, and you have the base of the Baldwin engine ;. you can get one Baldwin engine on that bridge, and you can only get one old Mogul, so that the bridges, if unsafe for the lighter engines, are still more unsafe for the heavier ? But you do not limit the speed for .the lighter. 4852. So then you think the speed has got something to do with it ? Tes ; and the deflection which you get on the bridge, and the load you use, and the engine which you use. 4853. Can you tell us what engine you used in making your test ? Tes ; it was the new Baldwin passenger engine. 4854. It produced what deflection ? Well, the records are all in the Sydney office, they are not with me, and I have not seen them for months since. It is a long time ago, and I could not give it to you from memory. I should prefer to refer to the cards themselves. 4855. Do you know about what the deflection would be, was it about half an inch ? I think it was about five-eighths. 4856. And what speed was that ? Well, we made the engine stand on the bridge first, and then I ran her over at 30 miles an hour, and increased to 40 miles, I made the man go as hard as he could. 4857. 158 BALDWIN IiOCOMOTITES IKQTJIET COMMISSION — MUTUTES OF ETrOENCE. ^•' 4857. Did it make much difference? Yes. The deflection was so great and the vibration so much ^-Watson, ^jjg^^ J ^jgj^ ^^ ^^-^^^ engine to go over at that speed. li'MaT"l892 ^^^^' ^^^ ^* deflect an inch ? I cannot say exactly. ^' "4859. However, an inch is a great difference ? Tes. . •. x a i i j 4860. The stress as stated in the Eeport to the Commission is 6-75 tons ;— well, now, the total load on the bridge was 226 tons per foot ;— with the Consolidation it is 2'76 tons per foot ;— it is merely a question of arithmetic, and it produces 8'24 tons, now is that safe ? Was that with the engines standmg, or going at a high speed. , . i t ■ -u j. js j 4861. It merely takes the load itself, it does not mean that the engines run at a high rate ot speed ;— now is it safe with 8 tons ? It may be safe, but I should lilce to see the bridge stiffened and strengthened. 4862. If you say it is safe, I must ask you some more questions, the ratio of the standing_ load to the running load is as 76 to 276 ;— when the live load goes on from the Baldwin engine the ratio rises from 76 to 276, what would be the breaking strength of iron with a number of repetitions, assuming that it would take 21 tons with the stress first applied, what would it take when apphed under these conditions for ten or twelve years ;— from 76 to 276 would be about 16 tons, the iron would stand 'say 21 tons, when first put down would it stand more than 16 tons under these conditions for breaking? It depends upon the quality of the iron. 4863. Take it at 21 tons at a fair average, you know perfectly well that the strength of the bar is determined by the manner in which it is loaded ;— if it has always a certain steady stress on it it may stand say 21 tons, what would it stand if it varies from 76 to 276 that is about the range? It would stand something less than that. 4864. About 16 tons do you thinli;— well, assume it to be 16 tons, what average of. safety have you? For a steady load it ought to be a- quarter. I should say they were considerably strained, but I would not positively say they are unsafe. 4865. Have you ever heard of a bridge being strained so much even in America, which still stood up ? These bridges are built on the skew, therefore they are a little stiffer. 4866. But you get five-eighths deflection ? Tes. 4867. I do not think you are*far out, because I know what it goes with the others, you say means have been taken to strengthen these bridges, you know what they are ? My chief engineer, Mr. Poxlee, has the matter in hand. I do not know how far it is in hand, but I believe there are plans got out for the strengthening of these bridges. 4868. Now, with regard to the iron and steel rails on this length, you admit that there are many broken rails from time to time, and broken chairs ; — with sleepers 3' feet each apart on the straight, and with steel rails 71 lb. per j^ri, do you consider they are safe to carry a Baldwin engine — passenger or consolidation engine ? Do you mean the double-headed steel rails. 4869. We have it in evidence that the rails are 71 steel and 75-lb. iron ? I have always considered the rails to be 75 lb. per yard, and we have a few miles of double-headed steel rails. 4870. What do they weigh per yard ? They were considered to be about the same weight as the iron rail, there are 3 miles of the double-headed rails. 4871. Are they the oldest ? No, the oldest are T rails. We have 71-lb. T rails beyond Bathurst. 4872. Tou have all sorts of rail sections in this'length, and I take it you have some of the double-headed iron and double-headed steel rails ? Between Wallerawang and Bathurst we have double-headed steel, iu the west we have steel T rails. 4873. And these weigh about 71 lb. per yard, do you consider the Baldwin engines safe with the double- headed iron, double-headed steel and T rails on the line ? Tes ; taking into consideration the curves, and if you do not travel too fast on the rails they will carry you. 4874. Mr. Fehon.'] Tou say that the road is a good deal knocked about? Tes ; I mentioned that in my report. 4875. Because it was not properly ballasted ? Tes, 4876. And since it has been lifted and reballasted you have got rid of that complaint? Tes. 4877. Did you not write to Mr. Foxlee that you found the Baldwin engines were running as easily as any other engines on the road ? Tes ; and I think they go remarkably evenly on some parts of the roads. 4878. When sleepering a curve what is your custom, a curve over 15-chains radius, and a curve under, when it is over how many additional sleepers do you put in in ? For a 15-chain curve you would put in one additional sleeper, and under fifteen you put in ten sleepers to a 24-foot rail. 4879. What do you put in when it is under fifteen ? Tou put in an additional sleeper in 15 chains, and under we put in one additional sleeper. 4880. Under 15 chains you put in two additional sleepers ? Tes. 4881. Do you know the English custom of putting in sleepers? I have not had any practice in the English custom. 4882. Tou say that the broken chairs and fish-plates were the result of the road being lifted ? Tes ; a great deal. 4883. And that it was not due to any particular class of traf&e running over it ? It was due to continual traffic, such as heavy wool trains running over it. 4884. Tou say it would be more likely to break a fish-plate or a chair on a newly made road ? Tes, sir. 4885. Mr. Soi/Ie,^ Tou said you had some double-headed steel rails on some portion of the road, do you know the weight of those rails ? No, I do not. 4886. Are. you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? No, I have not that distinction. 4887. Are there any men in your portion of the district now being started to relay the line ? Tes, sir. 4888. Have you received any orders from head-quarters that gangs of men are to be put on to relay any portion of your district ? Tes, sir I have. Erom 114 miles 60 chains and carried on. 4889. Tou say that you sent in a report about the state of the road since the Baldwin engines began running, do you know if that report is in existence ? Tes, I think it is. 4890. Mr. Brown.'] How can he tell you that ? 4891. Mr Soylei] I should like to have the report put in. 4892. Mr Brown.'] Well you can have it if the Railway Commissioners can find it. Henry BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIBT COMMISSION— MINUTES OIT EVIDENCE. I59 Henry H. Park recalled : — 48921. Mr. Hoyle.] Is it a fact that on one of the engines now in your district there was a wheel with a Mr. broken tyre ? No, not exactly, not a wheel of the engine. ■^- •^- ^*'^''- 4893. Is there a broken tyre in any of the tender wheels P There has been one, but it has been replaced C7r'''T^ by another tyre. ^ 1 May. 1892. 4894. Can you tell us when or where it was broken ? I cannot ; the number, I believe, was 485. 4895. Is it a tender or an engine wheel ? It is the tyre on the left leading wheel of the tender. 4896. Is it a bad break ? It is broken right through. 4897. Is there anything else the matter with the wheels of the engine, is there a loose tyre on any of the wheels? _ There is one showingsigns of being a little loose when it is hot, but when cool it is quite sound by sounding it with a hammer, it shows signs of being loose v.rhen it is hot. 4898. Tou say it has been evidently loose? Tes. 4899. What wheel is that ? It is on the engine 485 on the second leading wheel.') 4900. Have you had any tubes leaking in any other engines since you were here last, was there any leaking in No. 485 ? I cannot say from memory. 4901. Can you tell us whether one engine broke down on the 1st May, and returned from Langton with reversing-gear carried away ? On the 1st May ? 4902. Tes, did an engine break down since you were here last, from the reversing-gear giving way ? I cannot call it to mind. 4903 Are there any of the engines in your district cutting into the boxes or with the connecting rod point out of gear ? I do not think there are in my district. 4904. Are there any more engines in your district with loose tyres ? No. 4905. Or loose wheels ? None that I am aware of. 4906. The only one you know of, apparently, is the loose tyre on the engine wheel when it is hot, and the tyre on the tender wheel ? Tes. 4907. Mr. Brown.] How many engines come into your ; shed ? Eleven in my district, and two from Bathurst. 4908. Since that time, in the matter of the tyre, is the pnly thing of importance that has occurred with regard to these engines ? Tes. 4909. Is it not a dangerous thing for a tyre to break ? Most decidedly it is. 4910. And is it not dangerous to have a tyre loose on the wheel ? Well, that is according to how loose it is. 4911. Professor Warren.] Do you consider the second tyre that is working loose to be dangerous ? No, 1 do not say that I would stop the engine afonce for it. 4912. Mr. ILoyle.] Will this engine now be allowed to go out with the tyre loose ? Tes. 4913. Tou do not consider it sufficiently dangerous to keep it in ? No ; I say I would not stop itl'rom running , 4914. How is it fastened ? With bolts. 4915. Professor Warren^ Would it tend to any accident? No, sir. 4916. Mr. Hoyle.'] Do you know if any of the engines gave any trouble through the tubes leaking ? I could tell you one if I looked at my note-book. [Referring to note-book] No. 502. 4917. Is anything the matter with No. 485 ? Not that I am aware of. 4918. No. 488 ? Not that I am aware of, more than ordinary repairs. 4919. Can you tell us whether the mail has been running to time since the accident ? The up or down mail ? 4920. The up mail ? I cannot answer that question. 4921. It does not come in your department ? Tes, it does ; but it is a Bathurst engine, and is not run by me. 4922. If they do not run to time would it be reported ? There is a note made in the book, but it is Reported back to Bathurst, to their inspector. 4923. Mr. Fehon.] Have you ever noticed that the tyre on any other engine wheel would become loose from excessive braking down the Mountains ? Tes, sir ; I have known many. 4924. And this is not exceptional ? No, sir. 4925. Have you reported this loose tyre ? No, sir ; I did not consider it of suiEcieut importance to report, as it is at present. 4926. Can you tell us, then, how Mr. Hoyle has got this information about a trifling thing, so small that you did not consider it worth reporting ? 4927. Mr. Brown.] Ask him something easy ? 4928. Witness.] I do not know ; I know that he did not obtain it from me. 4929. Mr. Felon.] Are you related to Mr. Midelton ? No. 4930. Mr. Midelton.] Mr. Pehon knows perfectly well that I have no relatives in Australia. Greorge G-asgoigne, being sworn said : — 4931. I am an engine driver stationed at Penrith, sometimes I drive to Sydney, and sometimes to Bathurst. ^^- . I have been in the G-overnment service for twelve years and six months stationed at Penrith. I have '^^^^^' been driving for seven years, and was firing five years before that. jj^ jj- x^2%. 4932. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you driven the Baldwin engines ? Tes, every class of them, except the ' passenger Baldwin. The old goods Baldwin, and the new goods Baldwin I have driven. 4933. Had you any trouble with these engines ? I have had a little ; they have been a little short of steam sometimes, but nothing extra. 4934. Can you tell us this, is there any special class of coal kept at Penrith for these Baldwin engines ? Tes. 4935. And are other classes of engines allowed to use this special class of coal ? Oh, no. 4936. Tou said just now that you had some trouble with the steam — what caused that ? We mostly reported it through inferior coal. 4937. Do you know what it was in the Baldwin engines that made you use a special coal ? No. 4938. Is it only kept for the passenger engines ? I believe it is kept as far as I am informed for the goods engines, that carries the mail train to Katoomba. 4939. 160 BAIDWIS LOCOMOTIVES JNQri|lT COMMISSION— ^MINUTES Of ETIDENCE. Mr. 4939. Had you any leaking tubes in tlie engines you were driving ? Yes, I have. Gr. Gasgoigne. ^g^^g, jjave you had any breakage on reversing or brake gear? I have had the brake-gear give way. 11mIv^2 ^^*1- ^^y ? I ^^^^^ 1* i« too lig^*- ay. o»«- 4942. Was it through rough handling ? The guard never complained to me about using the gear roughly. 4943. Were you ever reported for using it roughly? No, I think it was through bad rolling and bad welding. .1 know for a fact there were bad welds. 4941. Did any of the engines run hot ? Tes, I had a great deal of trouble with No. 491. The engine was running hot before I got her. 4945. What wheels were running hot ? The trailers and leading bogies, the right bogie especially. I was asked once to leave this engine in Bathurst, but I asked to have her for another trip, to try and get her round, and I found I was successful. I found the boss of the wheel was cutting into the boxes very badly, and I used artificial means to enable the oil to drop between the boss and the wheel, and so put a face on the wheel boss, and so with a little skill I got the engine to run very passably, she was very bad when I first took her in hand. It appears that the first trip she ran from Sydney this was caused. 4946. Was this the bogie wheel which was renewed? 1 do not think it was renewed, or if so it has been renewed since, but I do not know. 4947. Had you ever any trouble with the feeders and injectors ? Tes, I found tha,t the flange of the leading tender wheel shut the water ofi and I complained to my inspector about this. There is a stop- lock which is at the back of the leading tender wheel, and in the curves of the flange of the wheel touches it so as to shut the water off. There is no doubt about that. 4948. Did you find that these engines consumed much coal ? There is no doubt that they consumed ■ a great deal of fuel, because they haul such a very large load. 4949. Did you have an engine to push up behind ? G-enerally. 4950. Do you know whether that engine brings another load back to Penrith or comes back light ? Well, I have pushed up and I have come back light. 4951. Did you generally come back lighter ? Sometimes at G-lenbrook they pick up a part of the load left by the Baldwin engines or other engines, thrown off there. I saw many light engines. The last time I was at Katoomba I came back with a light engine. 4952. Did you think the tender strong enough to carry water? Well the tender is on a little slop6, and the plates were loose- on the top of the tender. I have found there were several rivets beginning to leak, and when the tender is full of water you would see the plates heave up and down with the weight of the water. 4953. Professor Warren.] Do you mean that they will buckle? Yes ; but when the water gets a certain distance down there is no harm done, and if you have filled the tender right up with water then the plates buckle. It is the weight of the water through the tender being sloping. You will see the plates rock and buckle. 4954. Mr. Hot/Ie.] Do you think that the strength of the piston with the brake gear is strong enough? I never gave it any consideration. I never had any trouble with the brake. 4955. Did you find the wheels moved loose on their axles ? I was told that they had been found by the fitter to move as much as 2 inches. That fitters name was Wilshire. 4956. Is that serious ? Well it is not very pleasant. 4957. Did you find with these engines that they rolled much ? If you go into the curves at any pace they do. 495S. You say you have been a driver for seven years ? Yes. 4959. And have run over the Western road with all classes of engines, except 447 class. Well, do you consider, in all the experience you have had, that it would be safe, say on a 12 chain curve, to run these engines at 25 miles an hour ? I should not like to do it. 4960. Would you do it ? No. 4961. Why ? Because I do not think it safe. 4962. Mr. Fehon.'] His engine is only allowed to run at the rate of 18 miles an hour. 4963. Mr. Hoyle.'] Well, would you take a curve at 18 miles an hour? Well, I have not done so and I would not like to. They are rough enough at a steady pace. They are a good driving engine on a straight road, and they are not so bad in the curves if you are going at all steadily, but if you come into the curves at a good pace they give you a nasty chuck 4964. Then you must go very steadily into the curve less you be thrown otf ? Well, I do not know that they would throw you off, but I think it would be detrimental to the engine, the boss of the wheel touches the box and starts it to heat with the pressure put on the boss. 4965. You have had some experience of driving over (the road before the Baldwin engines came here, what did you drive at that time ? The old Baldwin, the 131 class. 4966. That is known "as the original consolidation engine? Yes ; and I fired on that class for four years. 4967. When travelling a driver can feel the road can he not ? Yes, to a certain extent. 4968. Do you find that you feel the road more now than before' you drove the new Baldwin engines ? Well, it is pretty rough. 4969. Do you consider it worse now than before ? I think that the greater portion of the old road that has not been relaid is worse, actually worse than it was before. 4970. Do you know whether the engine is severe on the draw-gear ? Well, I can say that there is more broken draw-gear since the new engine came than before. I was driving for some seven years and I never had a broken draw-hook before these engines came, but since then I have found that I am not more infallible than any other men. 4971. Have you had much draw-gear broken ? I think I have had seven hooks. 4972. Was that on the engine or trucks ? On the trucks. On the engine I have had one because I had the engine coupled in front. 4973. Oh, you had one on the engine? Yes ; from Clarence to Bell. I had a load of thirty-one of coal and two brake vans. 4974. Do you consider it safe on the draw-gear to haul such a load as that ? I thought it was too much. I once came into Sydney on a deputation from the drivers re hauling loads on the mountiins ; the drivers thought that they were dangerous, and I was sent to represent the drivers re the heavy loads, that must be nearly two years ago, 4975. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES IS-QUIKY COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYiDENCE. 161 4975. ■Would you prefer to drive one of these engines to the Scotch Yankee? No; I would rather Mr. drive the Scotch Yankee. <*• Gasgoigne. 4976. Did you find a tendency in the Baldwin engines to throw you off the foot-plate in taking the if'i^^'*''7I^„ curves ? Yes. I think they have a tendency that way, they are so high for one thing. ^' ^° ' 4977. Have you ever heard the drivers complain about these engines ; those who have driven them ? Yes. 4978. Do you know any of the men who have thus complained ? I have heard Driver Elliott say he hopes he will never go on them again, and he has driven both classes, and when starting work about a fortnight ago I met a fireman and he said, " I am glad I am off them, and hope I will not go on them again." 4979. "Why ? They consider they are heavier, and they are not so healthy as the other engines. 4980. What do you mean by healthy ? They are so hot, and then you have so very little room. 4981. Processor Warren.] You did not like the arrangement on the side ; in fact, you would rather stand in front, with your hand on the regulator? It is not like the old Baldwin; there is more room in them. I refer to the 131 class. I never wish to drive a better engine than the old Baldwins ; you can stand safer to your work, and see where you are going. 4982. Did you drive them like the ordinary engine ? No ; there is a regulator just like that on the new ones ; but they are not so high up, and you can stand in the front to your work. 4983. They do not have such high hollers as the new ones, you mean? No ; the new ones have a very high boiler, and you have to stand at the side, and if you put your head out at the window you are liable to be knocked out by some obstruction if you are driving in the dark. 4984. Then it would not be safe to stand on the side in the dark ? It would not be a safe place to sit in the window. 4985. Mr. Moyle.] Do you think it would be safe in the case of a passing engine ? Well, I have seen an order not to lean out on the cabs, as it is dangerous to do so. 4986. Is there any notice to that effect on the engines ? Well, I believe there is. 4987. Is there on your engine ? I am not driving one now. 4988. Have you ever driven the engine that takes the mail — have you ever driven the Western mail train? I have not driven the mail from Penrith to Katoomba with one of the Baldwin engines. 4989. Can you tell us what was the greatest load that you have taken from Penrith to Katoomba without assistance of other engines ? Do you mean the new ones ? 4990. Yes ? I am sure I cannot remember just now. 4991. Professor Warren.'] Does it matter ? 4992. Mr. Hoyle.] Perhaps not, 4993. Professor Warren.] We are mostly concerned with the other ones — with the new Baldwins. 4994. witness!] I can tell you the largest load I have hauled with the new ones on the mountains. 4995. Professor Warren?^ You may as well do that. 4996. Mr. 'Soyle.] Give us the heaviest load that you have hauled with them ? I think it was 219 tons, including two break-vans. 4997. Two hundred and nineleen tons, exclusive of the engine ? Yes. 4998. Professor Warren.] What speed can you travel at with such a load as that ? I can hardly say exactly. 4999. Well, tell us approximately — as near as you can ; did you go at the rate of 4 miles an hour ? A little faster, but not much. 5000. Could you do 10 miles an hour up the 1 in 30 with that load ? No, not up the 1 in 30. 5001. Well, how fast did you go up that incline, do you think ? At the rate of about 6 miles an hour. 5002. Mr. Moyle.] Then you had two break-vans ? Yes. 5003. Had you any assistance? No other engine was attached to the train. They were all heavy waggons ; it was a train of ballast that I lifted at Emu Plains. 5004. What is the biggest load that you have hauled with the other engines ? I cannot say. 5005. What do you think ? 1 took 219 tors (nineteen trucks and one large break-van) up Dargen's with a pressure of 110 lb. to the square inch ; that was up an incline of 1 in 33. ' 5006. And what is the pressure in the Baldwins ? 160 lb. 5007. Professor Warren.] The pressure, I take it, has been reduced in the old engines ; you do not run them at the pressure you used to ? No ; they have been very good engines, but they have worn down a little. 5008. Mr. Soyle.] Do you think you could take 200 tonsup Dargen's with oneof the old Baldwin engines with 160 lb. to the square inch pressure ? Well, I cannot say, Mr. Hoyle. I never tried. If the 200 tons were put on, I daresay I would have a good try. 5009. Professor Warren.] If you hurst the cylinder? Well, it would be more likely to burst the boiler. 5010. Mr. Fehon.] Do not all engines run hot during the few first weeks? Yes, the majority of them do. 5011. The Baldwin engines have not run hot yet more than engines ordinarily do, I presume? Well, I had a great deal of trouble with this engine in the first instance. Every man had reported her before I put her right. 5012. At all events you did put her right ? Well, I believe that I did. 5013. And she is right now ? I am not using her now. 5014. Have you ever driven Vulcan ? Yes. 5015. Are they not very rough ? Yes. 5016. Are they very much rougher than the Baldwins ? Yes, they are very rough. 5017. Do not all engines shake you up when you enter a curve? Yes, they do more or less. •'018. Nothing unusual in it ? Too usual sometimes. 5019. At all events you would rather ride round a curve on the Baldwin- engine than on the Vulcan at the same speed ? I would. 5020. Did you report to anybody that the feed-cocks touched the wheel ? I did. 5021. Who did you report it to ? To Inspector Stuart, and I also entered it in the repair book. 5022. Have you reported that you considered the plates of the tender weak ? No ; 1 have called my superior officer's attention to it, and he has ordered no fireman to break lumps of coal on the tender. 5023. Mr. Park is the only one to whom you have mentioned it ? Yes ; he is my superior ofiicer at Penrith. 5024. Professor Warren.] You say these engines will not steam well ? Well, those engines clg not steam well. 6— X 5025. 162 BAZiBWlN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. 5025. But you found that when you got better coal that you had no trouble from want of steam ? I never ■ •""*eo'goe. had^ tj^g ^g|.^gj.gQ^2. It was always Eskbank coal that I used. I was never allowed the better coal, ll'l^^v'Tsq? *ltliough I believe the engines would have steamed better with it. '' "5026. What coal would you have preferred to Eskbank coal? I should have liked Helensburgh coal. There is no doubt about that, if I could have got it. . 5027. Mr. Fehon.'] That is South Coast coal ? Yes, sir. 5028. Professor Warren.'] You think the Baldwin engines knocked the road about more tha,n any other engines P I think they are too heavy for the road, and I think they ought not to go so quickly on the curves. Erom what I read, I see that the Board of Trade are issuing orders on the English railways of 10-chain curves shall be check-railed, and that the speed running over them must not exceed 12 miles an hour. 5029.' But from your own experience ? I find that they are uncomfortable to ride upon ; they throvv you. 5030. You broke one hook on the engine ? Yes ; I only had one break on the engine. 5031. "Well, we have nothing to do with anything but hooks on the engines ? There was only one engine- hook broken. 5032. President.'] Aud that you put down to the other engine ? Yes ; it was the front hook. 5033. You say that you would rather drive the Scotch Yankee ? I would. 5034. Is it because it is a more comfortable engine to ride upon ? Well, they are very good engines to work — that is the Dubbs engines ; but the principal part of my time has been on the 131 class and the 304 class — the old Baldwin engines. 5035. You do not dislike that class ? I like theiu very much. I believe that the Baldwin Com,pauy can build as good an engine as any English firm can. 5036. You say that it is not healthy on the new Baldwins ; — you mean that they are too hot ? Yes ; they are too hot. 5037. Mr. FeJion.] IlavS not push-up engines been used for all trains for many years j)ast? Yes. 5038. That is nothing unusual ? Oh, no. As long as I have been at Penrith they have been used. 5039. You spoke of breaitiug the coil on the tender ; — is there not an order saying that that must not be done on anv American ensrine ? I believe that Mr. Pcxrk has issued an order to that effect. 11 May, 1892. William Xield, being sworn in, said : — ■ Mr. 5040. I an engine-driver on the N.S.W. Government railways. W. Meld. 5041. President.] How long have you been driving ? About 19 years. " ~ ~ 5042. Always in the service of the N.S.W. Government ? Yes ; I have been about 30 years in the Eailway ' service. 5043. What were you doing before you began to drive ? I was in the traiEc department for a short time. I have been a gatekeeper ; I have been looking after points at Newcastle, and driving a pump ; also cleaning and firing. 5044. Where have you been driving lately ? Eor about three years I have been driving between Sydney and Newcastle. 5045. Mr. Brown.] And I can add that he is a very good driver. 5046. Mr. Soyle.] Did you drive the engine of which the axle broke coming into the Sydney yard ? Yes. 5047. That was on the Northern express, was it not ? Yes. 5048. You have driven these American engines on the Northern line ? I have driven only one of the new Baldwin engines — that is 457 — one of the new Baldwin passenger engines. 5049. Will you kindly tell the President and the gcTitlemen of the Commission your experience of these engines ? I like the engine very well ; it did the work very easily ; but, of course, after the axle broke, Ave had nothing more to do with it. I think that is putting the thing in a nutshell, and all I can say about it is, that the engine did the work very well, and so I liked it up to that time. 5050. What was your speed ? Our average speed was 34 miles an hour, but we would have to do between 40 and 50 miles sometimes in order to keep up that average, on account of easing down for staves and the going up banks. We have to go slowly up the banks, although we do not ease much for them, because they take the banks very fast. But then, as I said before, we have to pick up staves, and sometimes we miss one, and in that case we have to stop in order to pick it up. 5051. Then you were allowed to make up time ? According to the rule it is not allowable, but we have to get into time if we can, and we prefer to make up time than to be always writing to explain why we were late. 5052. Have you had any experience of driving on the mountains ? I ran for a short time to Katoomba with the tourists on Saturdays. 5053. Not with the Baldwin engines? No ; with the Dubbs 'American' or Scotch Yankee. 5054. Do you consider that after your experience of 19 years driving, and your 30 years' experience ou the railways, and your experience for I do not know how many years on the foot-plate ? About 23 years, a little more or less. 5055. Well, then, after all that experience, what is your opinion about the weight of these engines on the road;— do you consider them too heavy for the permanent- way on which they run? I think not on the Northern line. 5056. Mr. Fehon.] I submit that this is a question of a permanent-way, and an engine-driver can scarcely give an opinion as to the road over which he runs. 5057. Witness.] I merely answer that question because I was not afraid to take the engine over that road again. 5058. Mr. Soyle.] What weight of rail is there of steel or iron ? I do not know. 5059. As a matter of fact, you have not thought anything about the permanent-: way at all ? No ; I never do anything to it — I simply report to some of the men if I notice a slack bit on the road. 5060. But would you consider it safe to run the Baldwin engine over a 75-lb. iron rail ? 5061. Mr. Brown.] Is that a fair question ? He tells you that he has driven this engine over this road, and that he was satisfied with it, and he further says that he is prepared to drive it over again if the Commis- sioners desire it. 5062. Mr. Ho_yle.] Was this a clean break in the axle, or was it twisted off ? 5063. BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES IH-QTJIET COMMISSION — MIJTTrTES OF ETIDENCE. 1G3 5063. Mr. FeJion-.] I submit that this question is quite unnecessary, the Eailway Commissioners have Mr. already admitted that the axles were defective, and that they have been replaced at the cost of the ^- ■''^"^^* Baldwin Company. n'Tr^'""^ 5064. President:] Yes, that is admitted, and I do not see what object Mr. Hoyle can have in putting the ^' ^^^^' question. 5065. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes, but it has been said that many of the failures have been the fault of the drivers, and that want of lubrication caused the axles to twist off. 5066. Witness.'] I was sent for by Mr. Thow on the Saturday following the day the axle broke, to tell me that the Commissioners considered it was my fault, and that has not been recalled to my knowledge. 5067. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you attend to the lubrication ? Tes. 5068. You saw that there was plenty of lubrication ? Yes, I attended to it as well as a driver possibly could. 5069. What did you do ? As soon as I smelt the hot bearing I stopped, got down, and oiled it, and packed the keep with greasy waste, and went ahead and oiled it whilst running. 5070. Then you did everything that you possibly could ? I did as much as though the engines were my own. 5071. Mr. Felon.] You have not been blamed at all for the wheel coming off. 5072-3. President (to Witness).] You hear that you have not been blamed for the wheel coming off, and you are not blamed for it now ;— does that satisfy you ? But it has not been recalled before as far as I know. 5074. It is recalled publicly now at all events. You were satisfied with the engine before the axle broke, were you not ? Yes, I expressed myself to some of the officers in that way, and I think to Mr. Stanger. I said that I liked the engine very well. 5075. Did it take curves well ? Yes. "•"^ 5076. Professor Warren.] Did it roll ? No, not much. 5077. It did not shake you when you took a curve ? No ; of course we always slow the engine for our own convenience, and for the purpose of keeping the axle-boxes cool. 5078. President.] Is there room to work ? I have never tried the goods engine. 5079. But in the passenger engine is there ? There is room enough for me. 5080. You are a bigger man than the man who said just now that there was not room enough for him. 5081. Mr. Hoyle7\ That was a, goods engine and that would make all the difference. 5082. Mr. Broun.] I suppose that the best of drivers must get a hot box occasionally ? Oh, well I have seen one on every class of engine I have had. 5083. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you drive the Scotch Yankee ? Yes. 5084. Were they good engines ? Yes, very good running engines. 5085. Did you find that they took a curve well? Tes, but I think they are not quite as easy in taking a curve as the Baldwin engines are ; at the same time I like them very well. 5086. They do not throw you off the engine or anything of that sort ? No. 5087. Mr. Fehon.] I may say that nobody has ever said anything about throwing people off with those engines; indeed, the Commissioners have alreadysaid that they considered them very good engines indeed. I might say that the remark i made just now in reference to driver Neild applies to all the drivers. The Commissioners do not blame anyone in connection with what occurred with the Baldwin engines. We think that they took all care, and under the circumstances did the best they could. Alexander Page, being sworn, said : — 5088. I am an engine-driver on the New South Wales Grovernment railways. Mr. A, Page. 5089. President.] How long have you been driving ? About eight or nine years. ,.-—^.k^~^ 5090. How long have you been in the railway service ? About ten years. 11 May, 1892. 5091. What were you before you were driving? Firing and cleaning. 5092. Were you ever engaged on the railway of any other country ? Yes. I was working on the rail- way of New Zealand before I came here. 5093. Mr. Hoyle.] You drive one of the Baldwin engines, do you not, Mr. Page ? I do. 5094. Have you driven more than one ? Yes. 5095. Driving these Baldwin engines, have you ever had any trouble with them ? Yes, I have. 5096. In what respect have you had trouble with them ? The boxes running hot. 5097. Have you had any trouble with the reversing gear ? Yes, with the reversing gear breaking. I have also had a valve buckle break, and have also had some trouble with the engines slipping. 5098. What engine do you drive — a goods or passenger engine ? One of the consolidation goods engines. 5099. What failures have you had with the reversing gear ? The back pin connecting the reversing gear broke. That was caused by a very bad flaw in it. 5100. In other words by inferior material ? A fracture half-way through. 5101. When you have been driving your engine, going the round after you had finished your journey, have you examined the wheels minutely, and if so, have you ever found any defects in them ? I have. 5102. What were they ? Broken spokes and a loose tyre. 5103. What engine was that ? The broken spokes were on No. 447, and the loose tire was on No. 496. 5104. Did you report that loose tyre? Tes. 5105. And the broken spokes ? Tes. 5106. And is that engine still running? Engine No. 496 is still running. 5107. No. 496 you say was the one with the loose tyre ? Tes. 5108. How did you discover that it v,'as loose ? After doing a considerable amount of braking the tyre got hot through the brake being applied to the wheels. 5109. And did the tyre then break, or did it merely show that it was loose ? It showed that it was loose through the grease coming out between the tyre and the rim when it was heated. When cold no indication of it was perceptible. 5110. Have you ever had any break down with this engine other than the mishaps you spoke of ? Any break down — the question is what do you call a break down. 5111. Has anything else gone wrong with the engine ? I have had a brake lever draw out of the break shoe. 5112. 161 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIET COMMISSION— MIITIITES OF ETIDENCE. Mr. A. Page. 5112. Have you ever driven any of the passenger Baldwin engines? Three times. One of the engines '""^"-""""^ was 447, that I have just referred to. llMay.l892.5ii3_ Jg the 447 a passenger engine ? Tes. „ ^ xi. x • ^i. *.i, 4- \. a a 5114. Mr. Brown.yia that the one that had the broken spokes ? Tes; that is the one that had the anS^^Mr^ Roi/le.] Did the spokes appear to be broken or only cracked ? WeU, so far as I could judge by looking at it, the spokes appeared to be broken. ,.,,,, i .i v i- c 1.1. 5116. Would you be likely to notice it more when the wheel is hot through the application of the brake-I mean, would the apparent fracture open out then at all ? Do you mean the broken spokes ? 5117. Yes? Well, I cannot say with this engine whether they would or not, because I had very little braking to do with her. I only ran her once, so that I cannot say. 5118. Did you report that ? I did. 5119. And is she still running ? Tes ; I believe she is still running. 5120. Have you ever had, in hauling your loads, any breaking of the draw-gear { -No. 5121. I do not mean breaking of draw-gear on the trucks ;— I only refer to the breaking ot draw-gear on the engine ? I have never had any broken draw-gear on either the trucks or the engine. 5122. Do you run your engine carefully? Tes ; to the best of my ability. _ 5123. Tou say of No. 447 that there are what appear to you to be broken spokes in the wheel, and that there is a loose tire on engine No. 496 ? Yes. • j 1,1 5124. Mr. Fehon.l Tou speak about a loose tire ;— might not that be after a considerable amount of breaking down the incline ? Tes. ^125. Does not that occur in most engines ? Tes. 5126. Mr. Hoyle.l What, loose tires ? I have often seen indications of loose tires on almost all classes of engines that I have driven. 5127. Mr. FeJion.'] Tou have mentioned several small breakages that have occurred in these engines ;— have you ever driven any new engines before ?, No. 5128. Are you aware, from your own experience, that these things occur more or less to aU new engines during the first month or two of their running ? I have seen new engines running hot often before. 5129. Mr. J3roion.'\ To whom have you reported these broken spokes ? I reported them in the fitters' repair book. 5130. Were they badly broken, or only apparently broken ? I wquld not be certain— they appeared to be broken. 5131. How many of them ? Twelve out of fourteen. 5132. Where they fractured right across? Some of them appeared to be fractured right across. 5133. Was this on the driving wheel or the back wheel ? The left leading wheel, I think. 5134. Mr. Fehon.'] Did you sound them ? No ; I did not. 5135. Would not that have been a better test than looking at them ? It probably would ; but I reported them for the purpose of being examined. 5136. What did your fitter say ; — did not he say that they were broken ? I did not hear him pass any remark upon them, but he must have been satisfied that they were all right, because the engine was sent out again. 5137. What is the name of the fitter to whom you reported the matter ? Eichard Heathcote. 5138. Where is he ? In Bathurst. 5139. Has there been any accident to that engine of any kind ? Not that I am aware of. 5140. Professor Warren.] You say you have been troubled with slipping ? Yes. 5141. Very often ? Yes ; frequently. 5142. But when you have a fine day, with a good road, have you been troubled with slipping? I have had to use sand on a dry road. 5143. Mr. Fehon.'] That is the engine that you saw at Eedfern ? Yes. 5144. Professor Warren.] Oh, then, we know all about that. 5145. President.] Do you mean the engine that we knocked with a hammer, and from whose wheels we took the puttv ? 5146. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 5147. Professor Warren (to Witness).] When you said that one of the engines slipped, did you mean the passenger or the goods engine ? I mean that the goods engine slipped. William Young, being sworn, said : — Mr. 5148. I am an engine-driver on the New South Wales Grovernment Railways. W. Young. 5149. President.] How long havie you been driving ? Por nearly nine years. f — w«^— N 5150. How long have you been in the service altogether ? About eleven years. 11 May, 1892. 5151. Were you firing before you were driving? Yes. 51-52. Where are you driving ; — what part of the road are you driving on now ? Between Bathurst, Wellington, Dubbo, and Cowra. 5153. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you drive any of the Baldwin engines, Mr. Young ? Yes, I drive a Baldwin engine. 5154. What is the number of the engine that you drive ? No. 489. 5155. Is that a Consolidation goods engine ? Yes, 5156. Have you ever had any failures with that engine ? Yes. 5157. What have they been ? Well, I had leaking tubes. 5158. Did they leak badly ? Well, on one occasion they were leaking so badly that I had to leave the engine and send for another. 5159. Had you ever any other breakages — failures of the reversing gear, for instance? No. 5160. Or of the brake-gear ? Well, no. I had a five-eighths bolt on the end of a stay broke, but it was of no vital consequence. 5161. Do you know whether there is an engine in the Bathurst shop with a valve-buckle broken ? Well, I have not been in the shop since Friday, and of my own personal knowledge I cannot say whether there is or is not. 5162. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OH ETIDENCE. 1()5 5162. Do you know whether the axle of an engine was bent at Orange ? Well, I have heard it said. I Mr. never examined it. I saw the engine standing on the pit, and was told that it was in consequence of a _'^ ''°S' bad axle, but I did not get down from my own engine to see it. iiTrisqa 5103. Mr. Fehon.'] The man only says that the axle was bent from hearsay. He says that he did not ^^' ^^ ' examine it, and still he is asked how it got bent. 516i. Mr. Royle.'] I asked the witness if he had heard as to how it got bent. 5165. President.'] Then you can call the man who told him. 5166. Mr. Soyle.'] Well, my only object in asking the question was to save the Department the trouble of calling an extra witness. (To witness) : What other defects did you find in your own engine ? I found in the left leading wheel what appeared to be a crack in one of the spokes, and also in the end of the balance weight. That is the spoke on which the end of the balance rests. 5167. Of what material are these wheels made ? Well, whether they are malleable cast-iron or by what system they are cast, I cannot tell. 5168. Are the tyresof your engine all right ? Tes, so far as I have seen. 5169. Have you had any draw-gear break ? On the engine, do you mean ? 5170. Tes ? No, 1 have not. 5171. In connection with any of the vehicles? Oh, on the train on one occasion th<5 centre-chain broke. 5172. If the road is in good condition or bad condition can you distinguish it on your engine; — is there any indication of the condition in which the road is by the motion of the engine ? Oh, yea ; the engine will roll about more on a rough road than she will on a smooth road. 5173. You have had experience of engines before these Baldwin engines arrived — did you find the road in any part rougher whilst you have been using a Baldwin engine than you did before the Baldwin engine began to run ? No ; I cannot say that I noticed it. 5174. And you say you run from Bathurst to Wellington and Dubbo, and sometimes on the southern road to Cowra ? Tes. 5175. Do you run these engines to Cowra H Tes. 5176. And how do you find the Cowra ? It is equal to any other road that I run on. 5177. Of course, you have no knowledge of the permanent way ? Well, any opinion that I might express about the permanent way would be of no value. 5178. Do you know the weight of these engines ? Well, from what I have heard stated here only. 5179. Did you report all the details of the defects in the engine to your ofiacer-in-charge ? Well, we make our reports in a book which comes under his supervision. 5180. STou have a book then? Oh, yes. There is a book for the purpose, in which all repairs which the drivers consider necessary for the engines are entered by him after he has performed his trip. 5181. Whose supervision is this book immediately under ? It is under the immediate supervision of the shed inspector. The leading fitter comes to it and takes from it the repairs that are required by the engine. I believe it will also be under the observation of the District Inspector. 5182. President.] It is a book Icept in the shed ? Tes ; a book in which all the repairs which the drivers consider necessary are entered. 5183. Is there a casualty book as well ? Tes ; the breakages are also reported, but that is more for the purpose of reporting delay to the train — the time the train has been delayed ; and, as a rule, the nature of the breakage by which the delay has been caused, is also reported. 5184. And is that entered in your book as well ? The casualty book is a different book from the fitters' book. They are two separate books. 5185. At any rate it is not very material. The Commissioners are going to produce all these books, are they not ? 5186. Mr. Hoyle.] Well I have a little doubt about it. (To Witness) : Every casualty is reported in that book, is it not ? It ought to be. 5187. At all events you report the matter if there is anything wrong with your engines ? Tes. 5188. Do you find that your engine rolls very much ? Tes, it does roll a little. 5189. More than other engines ? Well, yes it does roll more than other engines, but the lightness of the springs accounts for that. The engine is less rigid than an English engine would be, and consequently in running round a curve a movement is given to it that is more of a swing than I have noticed on any other engine that I have driven. That is a characteristic of the American engine — that is to say, that it rides lighter, and on the whole it has an easier movement. 5190. Have you had any failures at all with the brake-gear ? No. 5191. No failure with the brake-gear ? No. 5192. Could you keep time with this engine ? Tes, everything considered. I may say this, that the engine that 1 have been running mostly I have had some trouble with in keeping time, in consequence of the difficulty in steaming. That is not a radical defect in the engine, but it is a radical defect in the way in which the repairs have been carried out. 5193. Then have not the repairs that you have reported necessary been made ? Well, there have been two attempts to do it, but they have not yet succeeded in making her steam as well as I think she ought to do. 5194. Professor Warren.] Those engines do not steam very well then ? Well, some do steam very well, but this engine requires a great deal of trouble to make it steam, and I think she bums more coal than she would otherwise use. 5195. Mr. Hoyle.] Tou use the Eskbank coal, I suppose? Tes. 5196. Have you got any slow-down notices in your run anywhere ? Tou refer to bridges and bad places in the road ? 5197. Tes ; have jou either ? No. 5198. Tou have no slow-down notices at all in your road— neither bridges or bad places ? No. 5199. Professor Warren.^ Which is your district? Erom Dubbo to Bathurst and from Bathurst to Cowra. 5200. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you find your engine burns a great deal of coal ? Well, I consider that she con- sumes more coal than she ought to. 5201. That is owing to some defect or other is it not? Tes, it is a defect in my opinion, but you cannot call it a defect in construction. I should not call it a defect for which the builders were responsible. 5202. Is it a defect in design ? No ; I should not call it a defect in design. 5203. At all events there is nothing wrong that you have been able to discover ? Oh, I can find it out, but I can not get it done, 5204. 166 BALDWIN LOCOirOTITES INQUIEY COMMISSION — MINrTES OF ETIDEyCE. Mr. 5204. Mr. Brown.] Perhaps it is cheaper to burn more coal at 2a. 6d. a ton than to get the repairs done ? W. Young. ]^„ . J j[q jjj,^. ^^^.^ ^(^^^ ^.jjg j,gg^gpjj ^^ ^^ ^^i ^ j^ ^ ^^^^^^ ^^ ^T^^ eugins not steaming is hecause the steam n'TT^'T^o strikes the funnel after leaving the blast or exhaust pipe, and does not dislodge a sufficient quantity of 11 May, 1892. atmospheric air from the smoke box, the result being that the current of air through the fire is msuffi- cient to produce sufficient heat to keep up the required pressure. 5205. Professor Warren.] That could be easily remedied ? Tes ; it could ^^• 5206. Mr. Royle?[ Tou say that you have never run any engine but your own ? Well, 1 had one . trip with No. 486. ' , . ^ . 5207. And there was no defect in it ? The Crown stays were leaking slightly on that particular occasion. 5208. Have you driven any new engines before ? No ; I cannot say that I have ever driven engines new out of the shop. . ■ i , 5209. And therefore, you are not in a position to compare the repairs necessary to these engines with the repairs that have been necessary to other new engines ? No ; I could not venture an opinion. 5210. Do you find any of the bogie axles run hot ? No ; the bogie axles run very well. 5211. The bogies run well right through ? "Well, I have had my right trailing engine-box hot, but that was done running from Dubbo tender first. I think that was the reason. I have never had any difficulty with the engine previously. 5212. Mr. Brown.] As a driver, what do you think of these Baldwin engines generally ? Well, I may say that personally I favour the American type of engine all round. 5213. Tes, but what do you think of this particular type of engine ? "Well, yes, these particular engines and all other engines built by the Baldwin Company I like, because they are, in my opinion, a great deal easier to ride, and I think a man would live ten to fifteen years longer in driving them. 5214. "Well, that is a consideration ? I do not know that it is. The English engines, as a rule, are too rigid in the springs, and, therefore, the shaking about that a man's frame is subjected to when he is riding on them is very considerable. 5215. Professor Warren.] Do you find these engines hot ? Very hot. 5216. Are they hotter than the English engines ? Well, they are more confined, but the heat is greatest when still, for when running you can open the front of the cab and get a current of air right through. 5217. At all events they are quite comfortable ? Tes. 5218. Still you say you like to drive them ? Tes, because they ride easier, and are, consequently, easier on the frame of the driver ; at least they are on mine. 5219. But you would not say they are unhealthy? Well, I would not like to say anything about that, because of the heat that a driver is subject to in the summer time from them, but in the winter time, of course, he gets the advantage of it. 5220. Mr. Pehon.] Tou say that these engines are easier to ride ? Tes. 5221. Then if they are easier to ride they must be easier on the permanent way than an English engine ? Well, that is just what I have been thinking. Of course they are of greater weight than an English engine, but it would take a greater expert than I to pretend to say whether they would be injurious to the permanent way. 5222. Tour centre driving wheel is not flanged, is it ? No. 5223. Does that make the engine much easier ? It ought to prevent grinding on the rails. 5224. Did you take full loads with your engine ? I did ; more than what is allotted for her sometimes. 5225. So that the defects did not prevent you taking full loads ? No, they did not, unless, perhaps, on one occasion. 11 May, 1892. Patrick Hayes, being sworn, said : — Mr^P- Hayes, 5226. I am a ganger. 5227. President^] On what part of the line? Between Tarana and Loxton. 5228. How long have you been in the railway service ? About fifteen years. 5229. Always in the same position? No, sir ; I have been about ten years ganging. 5230. And what before that ? Before that I was fettler. 5231. Mr. TEEoyle.] Tou are ganginj^ between Losley and Tarana ? Tes. 5232. What rails are on your length, do you know ? I have iron rails and steel rails. 5233. How long have you been ganger on that particular length ? About five months. 5234. Tou have been on that length since the Baldwin engines were running,? Tes. 5235. Where were you before they began to run ? At Brewangle. 5236. They have iron rails there, have they not ? Tes. 5237. Since the Baldwin engines began to run, have you had any broken rails ? Tes ; and I had them before. 5238. But I am not asking you that now. Since they began to run, have you had any broken rails ? Tes. 5239. How many ? About two. 5240. And before they began to run ? Three or four. 5241. Then the lighter engines broke more rails than the heavier ones ? The heavier engines have not been on the road so long. 5242. How long were you on the Loxley length ? "V^ery nearly two years. 5243. How many rails broke in two years, can you tell us that ; — about how many ? I expect it would be about thirteen or fourteen broken and cracked. 5244. I do not mean how many rails have you taken out before they were bad rails. I am speaking of rails that have been actually cracked or broken ? Tes. 5245. And how many have you taken out of the Loxley length since thfe engines began to run ? Two broken rails. 5246. And how many cracked ? Four or five. 5247. That would be seven altogether ? Tes. 5248. And you got fourteen in two years with the lighter engines ? Tes ; that is all I can remember. 5249. Just so. How many broken rails have you had on the length that you are on now since the Baldwin engines began to run, either cracked or broken ? Pour or five. 5250. That is between Tarana and Locksley ? Tes. 5251. Those are iron rails, are they not ? Tes. 5252. BAI/DWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIEX COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 1(J7 5252. Have you had any steel rails break ? No ; no steel rails have broken. Mr. P. Hayes. 5253. What are the steel rails that have been recently put upon vour line ; — are they not 80-lb. rails ? 1 '"^'^-^ — n do not know the weight. ./ i i' J' U May, 1892. 5254. They are T rails, are they not ? Yes. 5255. Since the Baldwin engines have been running have you had much trouble with your length of the road ? No ; not much more trouble than before, except in soft places, where it used to go. 5256. Are there any slow-down notices on your length ? No ; not that I know of. It is a level road. 5257. Have you had many broken chairs since the Baldwin engines commenced to run ? No more than I had before. 5258. That is on the Loxley length, — but you had broken chairs and broken rails at both places ? Yes. 5259. And have you not found that the road was knocked about more since the Baldwin engines commenced to run than when the lighter engines were running ? No ; I have not. 5260. Do you know the weight of these engines ? Well, I have been told that they are about 100 tons. 5261. You do not know, only what you have been told ; — have you noticed since the Baldwin engines commenced to run that the rails have been bent in the joints ? Yes ; some of them have gojie down a little. 5262. Was that a common occurrence before the Baldwin engines came ? Yes ; it has always been that the joints have gone down a little. 5263. ,Have you not broken any plates ? Yes. 5264. Since the Baldwin engines came ? Yes ; and before, 5265. Then you do not think that the Baldwin engines are doing the road any more harm than the lighter engines did ? No. 5266. Have you had many rails taken out of your length since the Baldwin engines began to run ? No more than I had before. 5267. Were these rails taken out before they were very bad ? Well, they were badly worn. 5268. Then you have never complained at any time to your officers about the state of the road ? Only about these bad soft places. 5269. Have you ever applied to your officers for more assistance to keep these places in order ? No. 5270. You never made such a report — never such a request ? No ; only I have complained to my inspector, hut I did not make any report on it. 5271. Do you keep a record of all the rails you take out ? Yes ; every month. 5272. And that report goes to your superior officer ? Yes. 5273. The inspector or the sub -inspector, as the case may be ? Yes. 5274. Have you taken out many rails since the Tarana accident ? I have taken out rails and turned rails. 5275. President.^ Since the Tarana accident ? Yes. 5276. Mr. Moyle.'] Has your inspector travelled over your length since the Tarana accident and marked any rails that ought to be taken out ? Yes, sir ; he has. 5277. But iu the taking of the rails out before the accident you might take a rail out without the inspector's instructions, might you not ? I always have been taking them out where they were bad. •5278. Before the accident did the inspector go round and mark them with chalk to show you what to take out ; Yes ; he marked the rails, and chairs, and fish-plates, and bolts before the accident. 5279. Do you know how many rails you have taken out since the accident ? No. 5280. Professor Warren.'] How many do you think you have turned out since the accident ? Well, I expect I have turned and taken out about twenty. I am always doing that. 5281. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you taken many rails out on the curve since the accident? Yes, sir. 5282. How often do you take rails out on the curve ? When they are required. 5283. But you have just said that you often do it ? When they require it I do. ■ 5284. But how often have they required it ? It is according to whether they are in good or in bad condition. 5285. And how long ought a rail to be in a curve before it gets bad ? Some last longer than others. 5286. Well, with your experience as a ganger, how long .ought a rail to be in a curve before it is removed ? Well, there are some of the rails that have been there since the first. 5287. Mr. Brown.] I think that you are asking him a question that au expert could not answer. -5288. Mr. Hoyle.'\ Well, he says he has taken many rails out; and we know how long a rail ought to last. 5289. Mr. Srown.] I have not been able to ascertain it from the time this inquiry began up to the present, Mr. Hoyle. 5290. President.] How far are the sleepers apart on your part of the line near Tarana? Well, some of them that I havebeen measuring are about 2 feet 9 inches apart. 5291. Is that from chair to chair ? No ; from centre to centre. . 5292. Professor Warren.] Have you not some as wide apart as 3 feet 1 inch ? No. 5293. Have you measured them ? I have. 5294. President.] Do you know the place where the accident happened — the place where the broken rail was taken up ? No ; I have not seen it. 5295. Have you not been as far down as there ? No ; I have not. 5296. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you noticed the heads of the rails crushing any more since the Baldwin engines began to run than they used to crush before ? No. .John Sloan, being sworn, said : — 5297. I am a ganger employed on the New South Wales railways. Mr. J. Sloan. ,r>298. ilfn IfoyZe.] On what length? At Nyngan. ^CZT'^^T^^ 5299. Where were you employed before you went to Nyngan ? On the Brewongle length. 11 May, 1892. 5300. Was your length laid with iron or steel rails ? With iron rails. 5301. Whilst you were ganger there were the Baldwin engines running on that length ? Yes. 5302. Did you find any broken rails ? One. o5303. Since the Baldvvin engines commenced to run ? They were always running whilst I was there. 5304. But I understand you to say that you found one rail broken since the Baldwin engines were running ? Yes ; I was only there four mouths. 5305. 168 BALDWIIf lOeOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. J. Sloan. 5305, Whilst the Baldwin engines were running, did you have much trouble with the rails ? No ; not I i'w"''''ioo'> ™ore than ordinarv. II May, 188^, g3Qg_ pj^ ^^^ j,^^j ^^^ gj^g y^^ g^jjy trouble at all ? Not more than any other road. 5307. Tou say not more than any other road. Is the comparison between the other roads and this one a comparison between iron and steel. Is the other road you were on, laid with steel rail ? Yes. 5308. Mr. Felon.'] And yet he says that he has not had any more trouble with the iron road upon which he is now working and upon the. Baldwin engines are running, than he had with a steel rail before they began to run. ■ ^ ■• 5309. Mr. Royle.] Tes ; I know that. (To Witness) : As the roads were of different materials, however, you cannot draw comparisons. Have you ever been on an iron road before ? No. 5310. It is a steel road at Nyngan, is it not ? Tes. 5811. And you say you only had one broken rail whilst these Baldwin engines were running? That is all ; and that was only fractured, it was not broken right across. 5312. Had you many broken chairs ? A good few. 5313. On the steel road, there were no chairs, I suppose ? No. 5314. It was a T steel road, was it not ? Tes. 5315. So you cannot draw any comparison there ? No. 5316. Did you have many broken fish-plates ? No. 5317. Have you much trouble with your curves ? No. 5318. "Were your curves strutted ? No. 5319. President.'] Did you have more trouble with the iron road than you had with the steel road, that you were on before ? No more trouble ; I only had eight and a half hours work there. 5320. I do not mean that. I mean have you found more damage done to the rails ? I have only found one broken rail. 5321. In all your time, have you only had one broken rail ? One broken iron rail, and one broken steel rail before that. 5322. Do you find more trouble with the iron road than you had with the steel road ? Well," I only had one rail broken in this ease. M J W 1 li James Walsh, being sworn, said : — l.^^_,^^^^ ' 5323. I am a ganger on the G-overnment railway. 11 May 1892. ^^^^* -^''- -^"y^''-] On what length ? The Tarana length. ' 5325. Erom Tarana to where? From 115 miles to 121 miles 40 chains. 5326. How long have you been a ganger ? About four years. 5327. I suppose you have been a ganger on other lengths than that ? Tes. 5328. How long have you been on this particular length ? Since the 24th of December, 1890. 5329. Can you tell me whether you have not had more trouble with your road during the last sis months than you had during the previous six months ? No, sir. 5330. Tou have been a ganger on that road since the Baldwin engines began tr> run ? Tes. 5331. Do you find the road in as good a condition now as you did before the Baldwin engines began to run? I find it 70 per cent, better than it was before it was lifted and ballasted. 5332. That is not my question. I want to know whether you find the road as good or better Ihan before the Baldwin engines began to run ? It was lifted twelve months ago and reballasted recently. 5333. Do you find the Baldwin engines have any undue wear upon the road. Do you find they draw it out of gauge in any more than any other engine ? No, I do not. 5334. Have you got any rails in your road worn to about two and one-eighth on the top ? Well, in an iron road some rails will spread a little more than others. 5335. Tes, but I mean away absolutely to the extent of two and one-eighth on the top of the rail where it ought to be 2i inches ? I never put my rule on a rail to measure it. 5336. Is it a fact that you are laying a number of new rails since the accident ? I have had no new rails. 5337. Do you say that there are no new rails going into your length ? There are no more than usual coming in. 5338. Have you not put any new rails in since the accident ? Tes, where the accident occurred. 5339. Have you not put in a number of new rails in other places. Be careful, because I have been there myself and seen the road ? They might be new on one side, but they were worn on the other. 5340. Oh, I mean absolutely new rails ? There might have been one or two, but I cannot say. 5341. Was there a broken rail in your road last Saturday — a rail with a piece broken off it ? Not that I know of. 5342. Well, I know of it because I saw it — a piece broken off like there is there {tearing a piece out of a piece of paper) ? I have no recollection of seeing it. 5343. Weil, I saw it, and it was marked with a piece of chalk. Has the Inspector been along your road and marked the rails with a piece of chalk ? No Inspector has been along. 5344. A Sub.inspector perhaps ? No, not that I know of. 5345. Who has done it since the accident occurred ? I have done some of it myself. 5346. Has there not been a gang of men along this part of the road since the accident occurred ? Tes, I was one of the men. 5347. Was there no officer with the gang? Do you mean an officer of the Permanent way Department ? 5348. I suppose so. I suppose the Permanent way Department would send an officer with the gang under the circumstances? I do not, think so. I did not see any Inspector there. 5349. Well, at whose order was it done ? I do not know at whose order, but it was done to get the brands of the rails. 5350. Was there anyone there but yourself ? Tes ; I was not alone there. There was Mr. Seeman, there along with me. 5351. Was he from Bathurst ? Tes. 5352. The foreman blacksmith, you mean ? Tes ; I think so. 5353. Did he mark any rails with chalk ? I do not think so. 5354. Have you had any broken rails taken out since the accident ? I am constantly taking out rails when I see them bad. 5855-6. But I mean cracked rails ? No ; I have not taken any cracked rails out since the accident. 5357. BALD-WIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSIOIf — 1IINTJTE3 OP EYIDESTCE. 169 5357. Have you had any broken rails taken out during tte last few months ? There were no broken rails. Mr. J. Walsh. 5358. But I mean fractured ones ? Yes ; there might have been a few. f -^ 5359. How many ? Xot more than three. 11 M»y> 1892. • 5360. Do you not call a fractured rail a broken rail ? No ; not if it is only fractured. 5361. Would there be no danger in a fractured rail if a train came over it? No doubt there would. 5362. Mr. Brown.'] And that is why he takes them up, I suppose ? Yes. 5368. Mr Hoyle.'] Have you had any trouble with the curves on your road since the Baldwin engines began to run ? No. 5364. Have your curves any struts between the cuttings and the end of the sleepers— that is a piece of wood going from the side of the cutting to the sleepers to keep it in position ? No ; not in my length. 5365. Have you marked many rails in your length to come out ? I have marked several rails. I generally do mark them. 6366. Was not' your gang working last Saturday afternoon till after 4 o'clock taking out rails ? Yes ; but not for the purpose of renewing them. 5367. But were they not taking out rails ? Yes ; but not rails that were marked to be renewed. 5368. Well, were they turned ? No ; we were taking out the different brand of rails to see whether they would stand the test, and putting good ones in their place. 5369. And was that the only thing you were taking them out for on Saturday afternoon ? Yes. 5370. Mr. Brown.'] Supposing they were taking them out because they were inferior rails, would not that be a very proper thing for the Commissioners to do ? Yes, no doubt. 5371. Is there any part of your road in which the rails are bent ? Well, they may nip a little bit. 5872. Have you noticed it since the Baldwin engines began to run more than before ? No ; I had to work hard before they came, as I do now. 5373. Do you think that you had more work before the Baldwin engines began to run than you have now ? Yes ; I was begining to think I was going to have an easy time of it. The road was being ballasted and lifted, and there was plenty of help, so we thought it was going to be made easier for ourselves. 5374. what do you mean by plenty of help ? The contractor's men were helping us. 5375. Was the road in a very bad state before it was lifted ? Yes, it was. 5376. And you hud that since the Baldwin engines came there it has been better ? Yes. 5377. It is a good road now ? Well, it is passable. 5378. Have you had many bad rails on your length ? There mighb be an odd one spread here and there but we are always taking them out in the usual way. 5379. Have you many rails that have been turned ? There may be some — yes. 5380. And when you were putting in these new fails you put in iron rails not steel rails I believe ? Certainly not. 5381. Professor Warren.] They are the Eskbank re-rolled rails that you are putting in then ? Yes, in the case of rails that are defective. 5382. President.] Can you tell me just where the late accident happened what the distance is between the sleepers ? The sleepers on that rail ? 5383. Yes ? On the rail that broke do you mean ? 5384. Yes P Well there are eight sleepers on that rail. Some of them are 2 feet 5 inches apart, some 2 feet 7 inches apart, some 2 feet 6 inches apart, and the widest apart are 2 feet 10 inches. 5385. Trom centre to centre ? Yes, on that rail. 5386. What is the length of the rail ? Twenty-one feet. Some of them have nine sleepers, going round a curve, there are nine sleepers. 5387. Mr. FeJion.] With your permission, I was going lo ask Mr. Hoylc what time he will finish his evidence, for this reason : — One of our Avitnesses is an officer of the Baldwin company. We have brought him from New Zealand, and he wishes to get away by the American mail on Monday, otherwise he will bo detained another month. 5388. Mr. Soyle.] I will finish to-morrow evening if I possibly can. I am as desirous as anybody else of finishing the inquiry. 5389. Mr. Brown.] Then, under these circumstances, can you sit on Friday ? 5390. Mr. Hoyle.] Yes, I can sit on Priday on this occasion. 5391. President.] We will try to sit on Priday. 5392. Mr. JPehon.] He is a very important witness, because he can give from his own knowledge an amount of information that nobody else in the country can give. 5393. President.] So I understand. We will see to-morrow evening what we can do. 5391. Mr. FeJion.] Well we will ask him to be present so that if Mr. Hoyle finishes in time you might be able to take his evidence then. TRUBSDAY, 12 MAT, 1892. \_The Commission met in the Board-room., Colonial Secretary's Office, at 2 o'cloc'k p.m.] ISreami;— E. E. EOG-ERS, Esq., Q.O., President. Phofessoe WAEEEN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDBE BEOWN, Esq., J.P. 5395. Professor JVarren.] I desire to state that I have read through the programme submitted to me by the Eailway Commissioners for the trial trips of the Baldwin engines to take place on Sunday next. I am perfectly satisfied with the suggested trials. The programme consists first of all in taking a train up the Picton incline with a maximum load of 144 tons, up the 1 in 30 grade, and after that there will be another trial with a lighter load, up the same grade, and then up the 1 in 40 grade a load of 176 tons will be taken, and subsequently a lighter load. Indicator diagrams will be taken all through these trials, so that we shall obtain the actual measurements of the horse-power, and the speed of the engines indicated with stop-watches. It is proposed to obtain the coal and water consumption by taking the precise amount of coal used from Sydney to Picton and throughout the trials and back to Sydney. I do not regard the coal and water test with the same degree of importance as I do the power developed and the load hauled at a certain speed. Mr. Kidd and Mr. Pollock are appointed to take diagrams. 5396. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 6— Y 5397, I'^O BALDWm IiOCOMOTIVES INQITIET COMMISSIOIT — ^MINUTES OF EVTDENCE. 5397. Professor Warren.] On tie trial trip with lii tons, and also with 178 tons, I wish to have half the indicator cards, and from them I will work out the results, and the Department will have an opportunity of working out the results on their half of the cards. We ought to agree as to the results, and thus put them beyond aU dispute. Eegarding the engines, I think it will be well to have as few persons upon them as possible, one representative of the Commission and myself and one other person, an assistant who will help me with the gauges ; and I shall have to look after the diagrams, and to look after the speed. I do not know whether Mr. Hoyle would like to travel on the engine or not. 5398. Mr. Soyle?[ Tes, I should like to go. 5399. Mr Fehon.'] There will be a carriage put on, so that Mr. Hoyle can accompany the engine if he \NdsheB. 5400. Mr. Moyle.l Which are you going to try ? 5401. Professor Warren.] We are going to try the Baldwin passenger engine only at present, and I take it that the trial of the Baldwin consolidation engine will stiU remain open. The gentleman who will accompany me is a graduate in engineering of our University. 5402. Mr. Hoyle.] I have a number of witnesses this afternoon, and the suggestion I would make is this, that without any desire to interfere with the Commissioners at all, as Mr. Rhodes, a representative of the Baldwin Company, and is, I understand, to return to San Francisco on Tuesday next, he might be called this afternoon, as my witnesses will take aUthe whole afternoon, and perhaps longer ; so that if it wiU meet the convenience of the Commissioners Mr. Ehodes' evidence might be taken now. I am quite agreeable to that course, being aware that that gentleman has been in attendance here for a very considerable time. 54X)'ii. President.] We could do that if you wish, Mr. Pehon. 5404. Mr. Pehon.] I think it would be better not, for I understand that the Commission wiU sit for a short time to take evidence to-morrow. 5405. President.] Mr. Hoyle does not know if he can get through his evidence this afternoon. 5406. Mr. Soyle.] If I must complete the examination of the whole of my witnesses, I may have to continue for some time ; but if you say that I shall be allowed to call one witness as a rebutting witness, I may finish to-night. 5407. President.] I do not know what there is to rebut. Ton have given evidence in support of certain charges, and the other side will then proceed to answer these charges. I cannot say at present that there will be anything you can give in reply until I hear vvhat the other side say, but I cannot say anything in anticipation of that. 5408. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Hoyle).] Can you sit to-morrow? 5409. Mr. Hoyle.;] Yes. 5410. President;] Ton do not think you can finish to-day, Mr. Ho^le? 5411. Mr. Hoyle.] I do not think so. 5412. Mr. Brown.] Well, I suppose we cannot help it — we cannot hurry it. 5413. Professor Warren.] I look upon it, if I may say so, in this light : this is a Royal Commission, and you can call Mr. Rhodes at any time you desire ; and as it seems unlikely that Mr. Hoyle can complete his evidence, and Mr. Rhodes has to leave early next week, it seems very undesirable that he should go away without giving evidence. He is the representative of the Baldwin Company, and this inquiry concerns the Baldwin engines, and we should like to hear what he has to say. 5414. Mr. Hoyle.] I have one important witness to call who is too ill to come to-day. That is the reason I made this suggestion. 5415. President^ Yeiy well, we shall see presently what can be done. Mr. S. S. PolUtzer, being sworn, said : — _ B p^ii-f 5416. I am a consulting engineer, and have practised for nine years in Sydney, before that I was resident ■ ■^^^^__^ ■ engineer on the railways and waterworks of the South Australian G-overnment, and I was Engineer-in- l2^^avlSQ2 ^^i^^ ^°'' ^^^ Bulgarian G-overnment for a considerable period. I have been on four or five different ' lines of railway and have practised as engineer in Hungary. I have taken my degree as a civil engineer at Vienna. 5417. Mr. Hoyle.] Are you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? Of what country ? 5418. Of England? No. 5419. Are you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers in any other country ? Tes ; in Hungary. 5420. Professor Warren.] What body does that correspond with in England ? It is the Institute of Civil Engineers and Architects. 5421. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you had much experience in connection with railways ? Tes ; my experience was about twenty-three years as a railway engineer. 5422. Was it a varied experience ? Tes ; it was mixed. I have had under my charge, constructed, and surveyed, at least 2,000 miles of railroad. 5423. Then you have a knowledge of the placing of sleeper ? Exactly. 5424. And the position of curves ? Exactly. 5425. Tou have a knowledge of these things ? I think I have. 5426. , Mr. Hoyle.] I wish to ask you some questions about the Baldwin engines, Mr. PoUitzer ? 5427. Witness.] I wish to state to you, Mr. President, that I have had no conversation whatever with Mr. Hoyle, and it was not agreed between us as to what way he should place the matter before me. I think with your permission, that I shall place the case as I think before you, and then von may put what question you like to me. 5428. President.] Do I understand that you wish to place your views before the Commission before Mr. Hoyle asks you any questions ? 5429. Mr. Hoyle.] I am quite willing for the witness to take that course. 5480. Witness.] After I have made my statement, any person can ask me what question he likes. 5431. President.] Very well, Mr. PoUitzer, you may take the course you suggest. 5432. Witness.] I came here with the object of ascertaining whether the Baldwin engines are suitable for the roads of this Colony or no, and stating toy views thereon so far as I am acquainted with the subject. This is a most important and serious question that I come forward to prove. 5433. President.] What do you mean by coming here with the object of proving anything ? 5434. Mr. Brown.] I presume that he means he has been called to give evidence. 5435. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IKQUIET COJIMISSION — MIinjTES OP EA'IDENOE, 171 5435. President.] I understand Mr. Hoyle has called you to state what you think, and not to advance Mr. S. S. any particular view? Tes. To answer this question I should have to look at it from three points of PoUit^^er. view ; first, prima facie, are the Baldwin engines suitable or not for the road. My authority is Professor -.^^i^T'^^^ Eanldn, one of the greatest engineers of the day. He says that the weight of a yard of rail should be 12 ^' pounds for every ton the driving-wheel brings to bear on the rail. In this case you have 15i- tons pressure on the driving-wheel, multiplying it by 12^, that gives 195 lb. of rail section, I mean of rail weight per yard. Now, Eankin is a great authority, but I cannot agree with him on that point, because no man would think of making a rail of 195 lb. per yard, and even making a concession of half the amount, is exaggerated ; therefore if you have one-half of what Eankin allows, you will have 97i lb. per rail— that is even taking half. Hence, on the face of it you cannot come to any other conclusion than that the rail is perfectly inapplicable to the engine, or in other words, that the engine is not suitable to this rail. This is only a practical observation, it is not conclusive. Conclusive proof means that I must take a careful cross-section of the rail, and with the utmost precision and accuracy, ascertain the strain on that section for the length of its support between sleepers, and with the maximum weight of the driving-wheel on it. "Well, I cannot pass an opinion upon that matter, because no section has been submitted to me, and I have not had a chance of doing it, therefore I am not in a position to pass any opinion with regard to the stability of the rail, or the weight of the engines in connection with it. I should not care to say that it is too heavy ortoo light, although my professional view is, on the whole, inclined against it, that is to say, I believe, andam underthe impression, thatif such a calculation were made, it would turn out to be against the Baldwin engine — that is the second point. The third point is to consider the engine in proportion, or rather in con- nection with the whole roadway. According to my experience, I think this road is absolutely unfit to carry the engine, or what comes to the same thing, the engine ought not travel on that road, and this is to be explained simply by the construction of the permanent way ;— how is it constructed ? It cannot be other- wise, in consequence of the double-headed rail. These rails are not in any way fastened to the sleepers or properly secured to the permanent way. They are only secured by wooden keys. Now certainly the gang men have their duty to perform, and it is to watch over these keys in their allotted portion of the hne; but a key may drop out after the man has passed, perhaps a shower may fall and the wood swells, the sun may come out, and it follows that the wood will then contract, and the key comes out, the rail, which is supported by sleepers 3 feet apart, the rail which is calculated to bear a certain weight in proportion to the distance of the sleepers from each other, ceases to have that support. The condition upon which the weight it could bear was based no longer exists. In the first place it is not fastened, because the key perhaps has fallen out, or the chair may be cracked, and instead of the distance between the points of support being 3 feet it becomes 6 feet, or double the length between the sleepers. That cannot be a proper construction. What I maintain is that in straight lines they are objectionable, these double-head rails with .key fastenings. 5436. Do you mean chairs ? Tes ; they are objectionable in straight lines, and I should not allow any double-headed rail to go into any curve. I might put them in because the curvature of the road was not aflTected much by the shock of the passing engine. In my opinion these roads should be made capable of carrying these engines. The whole system of the double-headed rails will have to be amended. 5437. Professor Warren.] Tou mean that they should have the ordinary Vignole section, that is the T rail with a flat bottom, and fastened with ordinary dog spikes ? 5438. President.] Is the rail fastened directly to the sleepers with a spike. 5439. Professor Warren.] Tes without any chair. 5440. Witness.] Chairs are employed in very sharp curves so as to keep the rail more secure and per- manent. The chairs keep the rails in a fixed and permanent position. Now I come to my final statement, which is derived from a great many years of ■ experience. I have been seventeen years in these colonies, and I have carried out railways to a very large extent. Mainly in South Australia, and here I have only had a little to do in that' way, such as a person in private practice can have where the railways are in the hands of the Grovernment. Before I came here, seventeen years ago, I never saw a double-headed rail on a permanent way in any main line of railway in Europe. There are no instances in Europe where they have double-headed rails on the main lines, they have cast them out and use them up on the side- ways and stations. Where there is a heavy passenger and goods traific, no one would think of putting in double-headed rails. The reason is that on account of the keys dropping out, they are unreliable. I have only known double-headed rails to be used in exceptional cases before I came here, as for example at station yards and sidings. When I went to South Australia 1 saw them for the first time, and when I saw them here I was startled to see that with the advance of science and the safety of passengers in view these rails should still be used. That is in the main what I desire to convey to you with regard to the permanent way of the railways of New South Wales and the Baldwin engines. 5441. President.] Are there many double-headed rails made now ? Not very many I think. 5442. Why should people make them at all, if they are no longer used ? Well I suppose they make them for any Colony that wants them. 5443. I suppose when the G-overnment originally got them they must have been in considerable use and favour. 5444. Witness.] They generally think the double-headed rails are the better, because when they are worn oh one side you can turn them round, but that is very wrong. People who do not understand exactly the strains acting upon rails recommend them for this sole purpose, but this is perfectly erroneous. 5445. Mr. Proion.] Is it not a matter of commercial concern to the people using double-headed rails ; — double-headed rails cost more than the T rails, and a portion of the rail lying undergroundbef ore it is turned over may be subjected to certain chemical action and so on ;— has not that had something to do with the change in demand from the double-headed to the T rail ? Not quite. 5446. As a matter of economy, is it not much less expensive to lay down a T rail than a double-headed rail with a chair ? Tes. 5447. Is not the T rail much less expensive in the construction of the road ? Tes, it is less expensive, and it makes a more permanent way. 5448. Well, is not that a reason why the double-headed rail is becoming in less favour than the T rail ? Tes, it would be a good reason ; but the principal reason is the strain acting on the rail. 5449. Professor Warren.] Tou have quoted Professor Eankin ? Tes ; he is a very eminent engineer. 5450. 172 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES IITQUIBT COMMISSION— UCINtTTES OF ETIDENCB. Mr. S. S. 5450. Do you tHnk you have quoted him correctly. Tou said that if you took 16 tons on the wheel, and PoUiteer. multiplied it by 12, you got 12 X 16=192, or about that, I think you said? Yes ; so it would be. lo'^^^o 545] .Well, you are taking double the weight-Eankin's rule is with regard to the weight on one wheel ? 12 May, 1892. y . , .' -^ s 5452. But you have taken it for two wheels ? "Well, you gave me 15 tons on the dnvmg-wheel. 5453. President.] That is on the driving axle, the whole axle. u t, ■ •- , o 5454. Professor Warren.-] Surely you know that a weight of 15i tons on one axle would be impossible ? I certainly drew my presumptions from the weight given in the Press. It said 15^ tons on the driving- 545^5. And you base your evidence on that assumption, and if you presuUie that one of the Baldwin engines has 15 tons 9 cwt. on one wheel, the whole of your evidence falls to the ground .'' it does not. 5456. How do you mean ? I admit in my evidence that I only gave the half of it. 5457. But you certainly did presume that one wheel of the Baldwin engine had 15f tons weight on it ^ Yes. 5458. "Well, I can understand you drawing very strong conclusions from it, and I think we should all do so if it were a fact, and say that such engines would be unsafe for the permanent-way .-' 1 said distinctly that I took only h.alf of it. ..'.,.. 5459. Why did you take half the weight? Because Rankin's rule is a rule only ; it is empyncal; it is not a mathematical formula, and you agree or disagree with it just as you like. i ci o -v 5460. Eankin's rule on your assumption would be to take 8 times 10, or more correctly, 8 times 15 a r i^es. 5461. And that would be about 96 or 97 tons ? Tes ; about that. 5462. Tou probably know that Mr. Havcroft gave evidence here ? Tes. 5463. Tou attach some importance to the strength of the rail ;— do you consider that it should be treated as a beam ? Yes ; exactly. 5464. What kind of a beam ? A beam fixed at both ends. 5465. Fixed by the two chairs ? Tes. 5466. Will you tell me the condition that must be complied with in order to get a fixed beam ? Stability. The moment is a factor of the distance of the two supports from the fixed points multiplied into the weight on the beam sitting on it, and divided by a coefficient. 54G7. What is the bending moment for the point ? W.L. 4 would be the bending moment over the pier for the fixed beam — that is, for a beam actually supported at both ends. 5468. And loaded how ? In the centre. 5469. Tes ; that is right. 5470. Now, why do you take this as a fixed beam ? Well, you have a beam and two chairs, and these two chairs are fastened by two heavy bolts to the sleepers, and thus the rail is made tight. 5471. Very well ; I do not say it is a fixed beam, but I wanted to have your reasons ? I am here, and subject to examination. Tou have these rails with the chairs into which they are wedged, thus the rail is made immovable. 5472. That is, supposing the chairs are rigid, and the keys are driven in tight ? 5473. Then you think it would be just the same as a beam driven into a wall and with a heavy weight on it ? Quite so. 5474. If that is your assumption you are right upon it. But the question is the value of the assumption. (Witness) : If you raise any objection or question to the assumption, then how can you say the rail is over the whole. A rail over the whole_of the sleepers is a continuous girder. The rail represents nothing else than a fixed girder over so many piers. 5475. On what theory do you base your statement that it is a continuous girder; what conditions must be complied with to make it so ? It must be one piece over all the sleepers. 5476. What about the supports ? If the girder is one long stretch, and all the' piers which are between the ends are to prevent the bending of the rail, those points are where the continuous girder is supported. 5477. And that is all. What conditions must be complied with in order that you may treat a girder as continuous ? Will you kindly explain to me what you want me to answer. 5478. Supposing th9,t the sleeper is depressed, and that the supports are not of the same length, what becomes of your theory ? It still holds good. 5479. Without modification ? Tes, without modification it still holds good. 5480. I am surprised to hear it ? The pier must disappear if it has settled a little, the elasticity of the girder will come down. 5481. It would not interfere with the point of contraflecture, and the bending moments all through? It would alter. 5482. The evidence is remarkable up to the present time. Continuous girders are well understood, and I can call the Engineer for Bridges and Mr. Deane on this matter. Supposing then that in the case of a rail on several supports, one of the supports should be depressed, would that alter the positions of the points of contraflecture ? Tes ; but it will still remain a continuous girder, and the points of contraflecture will be different from what they were before. 5483. Tou admit then that if the points of support are altered there will be a difference between the points of contraflecture ? Tes ; but it is still a continuous girder. 5484. Then it would be a very dangerous affair. If one pier happened to be depressed, what do you say would then happen ? Oh, it dips down with sleepers, you must keep the sleepers up to the permanent level. 5485. I daresay we shall have evidence that will show the value of treating the rail as a girder or a continuous or fixed beam. Do you know what a bull-headed rail is ? I do not know any rail by that name. 5486. It has a larger head than other rails, and it is fastened with keys the same way as a double-headed rail ? Perhaps you will draw me a rough section ? \_A rough diagram is shown to toitness.l I have seen these rails very little used. 5487. It is fastened exactly in the same way as double-headed rails ; — would you apply the same remark to it as you have the double-headed rail ? With regard to the permanent-way ? 5488. That is what I mean ? Tes, I would. 5489. BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQTTIET COMMISSION — MIKUTES OF EVIDENCE. 173 5489. Tou would say tliat a rail that is fastened by keys and chairs in the same way as a double-headed Sfr. S. S. rail would be equally bad? Tes. PolUtjier. 5490. Tour experience is mainly Continental ? Tes, and Colonial. fwi'^'^r^ 5191. Tou say that ou the Continent the Vignole rail is almost universally adopted, and that I think '^^' ^^^^' is so as far as I can learn, and you look upon a rail supported by chairs and sleepers as exploded ? Tes. 5492. "Would you be surprised to know the double-headed rail is almost in universal use in England, and •that the Vignole section is not used to any such extent ? It may be so. 5493. And you still say that it is an exploded idea ? Tes. 5494. Tou admit, I suppose, that there are some engineers in England, such for example, as Baker and Powler ? Oh yes. 5495. And you admit they would know something about it ? Tes. 5496. On the London and North-Western they have nearly all bull-headed rails, and they have chairs and sleepers ? Oh yes, that may be. 5497. Still you come here and give evidence saying that the double-headed rail with a chair and keys is an exploded idea ? Tes. 5498. And yet nearly the whole of the English lines are laid with it ? Professor Weber says that a double-headed rail, no matter what shape or construction it may be, is not by far to be compared in resist- ing a strain, or in durability with the Vignole. 5499. I think it ought not to go through the Press that the system of rails adopted in the Colony is an exploded idea, without it being known at the same time that that system is universal in England ? It is impracticable and dangerous to every curve. I cannot disassociate myself from that idea. 5500. And yet the English engineers are competent men ? Oh yes, 1 have personal friends among them, and they are as clever as any engineers in G-ermany or Austria. 5501. Well, we will let it stand as a matter of opinion. 5502. Mr. Brown.'] Continental as against English engineers ? 5503. Witness.'] On the Continent you will not find any double-headed rails. 5504. Professor fFarren.] Tou approve of the Vignole section simply because it has no keys ? Tes ; the main objection to the double-headed rail is because it is not a permanent fixture to the sleeper. 5505. Tou said no man would venture to put in double-headed rails, because the keys would fall out ; you surely made that statement without a knowledge of the English practice ? I have not much know- ledge of the English practice, and if I make a statement of any kind before the Commission it is in con- nection with my experience on the Continent and in the colonies. 5506. I do not think you would find your fellow countrymen so enthusiastic about the merits of the Vignole rail ? Well, Professor Weber admits it. 5507. Admitting that you have double the weight on the wheels, you still hold that the Baldwin engines are unsuitable for the permanent-ways of this Colony ? Tes. I simply go by the empyrical rule of Eankin. 5508. Then, because Eankin's rule gives 96 lb. per yard, you say these are unsafe ? Tes. 5509. In applying the rule did you merely look at the strength of the rail? I looked at the strength and the durability and the cheapness. 5510. In order to satisfy the durability what did you require in the rail beyond what is necessary for the strain ; did you require better materials ? Tes ; either that they should put better material or more material into it. 5511. Do you allow a margin for wearing down so that the strength of the rail should be calculated for when it is worn down ? It should be calculated for the maximum strain that is to go on it. 5512. Is it not a fact that rails are often made heavier than necessary to allow for wear? Tes. 5513. Heavy rails are made where lighter would do, simply for economy — that is, lighter rails would carry the load but would wear out sooner than the large ones ? Tes. 5514. How do you make the strain calculation of a rail ? The strain calculation of a rail is obtained by its weight ; then you must add a certain percentage for wear and tear, that is, for the use of it. 5515. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you had any experience of the New South Wales rail? Very little. 5516. Do you know the weight of the rail here — the iron rail ? No. 5517. It is 75 lb. to the yard. I want to ask you whether, taking into consideration the way the sleepers ar^ placed from centre to centre, and that they are from 2 feet 4 inches to 2 feet 9 inches apart on the curves, and from 3 feet to 8 feet 4 inches on the straight, do you consider it safe for a Baldwin engine with a weight on the driving-wheel of 15 tons 6 cwt. to travel over a straight road at 40 miles an hour and round the curves at 25 miles an hour ? Well, I do not care to answer that question. It comes to the same thing as I said before. It can only be answered definitely by calculation. My superficial impression is that it would not, but to give you a definite answer I should require to make my calcula- tions. To give you merely an impression would be to place me in this position, that I might just as likely be wrong as right. 5518. Tou have not made such a calculation? I have not made it ; I have not had the opportunity of doing so. 5519. Prom your experience of rails, where you have found fracturing or breaking, did you find it more in the case of lateral than perpendicular fractures or breaks ? The centrifugal force you mean. I think it will be the perpendicular pressure on it. 5520. And not the lateral strain. It will assist it perhaps, on the curves ? Well, it is only a question as to the curves, because the centrifugal force can only occur on the curves. 5521-2. Tou say you have had very little experience of double-headed rails ? Well, I have had nothing to do with them. I am frequently employed at work on the Blue Mountains, and I have seen on the curves there long logs driven in against the sleepers on the side of the cutting. 5523. Tou mean struts ? Tes ; that shows the action of the engines on the rail. The action of the engines shoves the rails out. Tou have to keep them in by these logs of wood. On a well made road that would not be needful. 5524. With a T rail of the same weight these struts wouldbe necessary also ? JNot quite ; it might be necessary, but the shocks and bearing out of the rails occur from the loosening of the keys, and then the tangental force has more power to force the rail outside. On the other hand, if the rail is fixed, it would tend to greatly reduce it. , 552j. 174 BALBWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIEX COMMISSION — MISXITES OP ETIDENCE. Mr _S. S. 5525. You -fchink that the effect of the keys coming out of the chairs causes a liability of the road spreading ? Polhtzer. Exactly. isMiiC^TSQQ 5526. And that would be a dangerous thing in itself? Oh, yes. -vr x j t i. j la may, isa-s. g^^y. Witness.'] I want to refer to the two photographs hanging in this room. Yesterday I had an opportunity of carefully examining them. If you look you will find that these engines are photographed on Vignole rails, and the Baldwin engine people themselves would, I think, admit that they would prefer to run their engines on the Vignole rail instead of the double-headed rail. 5528. Professor Warren.] There is a difference between saying one thing is better than another from saying that it no use whatever ;— you say the double-headed rail is an exploded idea ? Tes. 5529. Tou said no man would venture to put in double-headed rails because the keys drop out, and that applies to the bull-headed rails ? Tes. 5530. It is not a question then of their comparative merits, but whether one is any good at all or not? It is a question of fastening the rails to the structure. 5531. Mr. Felion.] Tou have had a lot of experience of iron rails, I understand ;— will you look at that one ? [Witness here examined the rails from the scene of the Tar ana accident.] Is that a good rail' or a bad one ? I should not care to express an opinion. The break is pretty old— there is a black spot upon it. 5532. I mean the rail as a whole ? On one side it looks first-class, and on the other I should say it was very bad. 5533. What drop test should that stand, dropping from the height of a foot, before breaking the rail ? I should think about 18 tons. 5534. Tou should think it would stand 18 tons dropping 1 foot ? Tes. 5535. With a long experience of rails ? Tes. 5536. Tou say you have been in the colonies seventeen years ;— what have you been doing all that time ? I have been conducting business when I could get it to do. 5537. Tou have not been in any regular employment ? No ; I am consulting engineer. 5538. Tou were employed by the South Australian Government ? Tes. 5539. Tor how long ? For seven years. 5540. What have you been doing since that time ? I was employed on all kinds of engineering works. 5541. What are you doing now ? Nothing ; because there is nothing to do. I am not so fortunate as to have a billet like some men. 5542. Tou were speaking of your French experience ? Tes. 5543. What weight of rail do they use there ? The outside is 75-lb. rails. 5544. Would you be surprised to hear that they are now using 67-lb. rails, and that they run a 98-ton engine over these rails ? It does not surprise me ; it depends upon how far you put your sleepers apart. 5545. Tou have given us a lecture as to how our permanent-way should be built ? I have not given any lecture ; I was asked to give my opinion, and I have given it. 5546. Ihere was another gentleman here who had had ten months' experience, and he gave us his opinion as to how we should construct our permanent- way ? Well, with ten months' experience, no doubt he was a far superior man to me. 5547. Tou spoke of the road spreading ; — have you known any accident to happen in New South Wales from the road spreading ? That has not been my business ; I am not reporting the accidents on the railways of your country. 5548. Have you heard of an accident occurring through the spreading of the road ? No. 5549. Well, this is only theory on your part ? It is practice. 5550. Did you give evidence at the Cootamundra accident against the railway ? Tes. 5551. That was the last time you appeared at any of these investigations ? Tes ; I thuik it was. 5552. Mr. Hoyle.] There was no Baldwin engine there. 5558. Mr. Fehon.] Do you not think a trip to the old country would do you good to freshen up your knowledge ? I daresay ; but I think I should recommend it to you as more appropriate than to myself. David Dunbar being sworn, said : — ^ 5554. I am manager of the railway works from Bathurst to Bourke ; I was employed by Mr. Proudfoot D Duniaar. ^''^ *^® 1'^*^ November, 1890, to undertake the relaying and reballasting the line from Bathurst to Bourke. ^^.L^^ji^,—^ 5555. Mr. Hoyle^ Tou say you were manager for Mr. Proudfoot? Tes. 12 May, 1892. 5556. How long have you been in his employment ? Since the 13th November, 1890. 5557. Did you have much experience before that ? Tes ; I had about thirteen years experience altogether. I first started work near Blayney, and I worked right through on the construction of the permanent- way to Nyngan ; from th«re I came down to Strathfield, and was employed by Amos Bros, as foreman on the line — laying the Hawkesbury and Newcastle ends ; then I was employed to lay the permanent-way for 13 miles between those sections, — the whole length of the sections was about 100 miles ; before that I was employed by Messrs. HaUiday and Owen from Narrendera to Jerilderie. 5558. Then you have a general experience of the rails ot this Colony ; — have you any experience where iron rails haVe been in existence ? My only experience was from Bathurst on to Orange. 5559. That was with T rails ? Tes ; they were iron T rails. 5560. Are they all there now ? No ; they were all relaid with steel 70 or 71 lb. to the yard, 5561. Have you been on the road since the Baldwin engines have been running ? Tes. 5562. Can you tell us whether, in your opinion as a plate-layer, these engines are having any injurious effects on the roads ? They do not show it any more than the heaviest of the other engines. On my section the joints are down a bit. They are the only places which show a weakness, and that is because the sleepers are placed too far apart at the joints. 5563. If the sleepers were placed sufficiently close together would a 7l-lb. steel rail be sufficiently strong to carry these engines ? Tes. 5564. In consequence of the oscillation of these engines is the road thrown out of gauge ? It may be if there are bad spots in the road, but if the road is well ballasted I do not see that that would throw it out. 5565. Do you think if we had bad weather and long rains on your length that the Baldwin engines would be perfectly safe ? It all depends on the foundation under a road. If there were plenty of good ballast under the road it would be all right. No doubt it would go down more in wet than in dry weather. 5566. BAIDWIIT lOCOMOXITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINITTES OF ETIBENCE. 175 5566. Is there plenty of good ballast there ? Tes, in parts. They are only ballasted to 6 inches under Mr. the sleeper from Bathurst on. D. Dunbar, 5567. Are there any places where that does not exist ? Well, as the rolling stock comes over it of course i„''7^^^^» it comes down, but I do not suppose there would be that now. ^^' 5568. Is the road in your district wavey ? Tes, on account of the joints. I suppose there are 50 per cent, of the joints that are down more or less, and that makes it look wavey. 5569. Do you think that the joints coming down is caused by the great weight of the engines — I mean the Baldwin engines ?_ Tes, it is caused by the heaviest of the engines ; the Baldwins and others. 5570. It is the Baldwin engines that are under consideration ;— do you consider that the weight of these engines, taking into account that they are considerably heavier, about 8 tons, I think, in the passenger, and about 18 tons in the Consolidation, have an injurious effect upon the road ? 5571. Mr. Fehon.] I ask if that is a fair question. Mr. Hoyle put a question whether any injury was caused to the road by the weight of the engine, and the witnesses answered the heaviest of the engines — Baldwin and others. I submit that it is not the weight of the engine that has to be taken into account, but the weight on the driving-wheel. 5572. Mr. Srown.] I thought the term a scarcely fair way of putting it, and I thought some objection would be taken. 5573. Mr. Hoyle.] I only want to get at the truth ;— if the truth is elicited I am perfectly satisfied ;— as the weight of the driving-wheels of these engines is 15 tons 6 cwt. on the one driving-wheel, and 15 tons 9 cwt. on the driving-wheel of the other, do you think that weight would have a greater effect upon the joints of the rails placed as the sleepers are than a lighter weight would have ? The more weight there is upon any one pair of wheels would put the joints down — the heaviest weight would put it down. 5574. And you say the ends of the rails are down at the joints ? 5575. Mr. Brown.] Is it not fair to say that there are other engines with heavier weight on the driving- wheels on the line ? 5576. Mr. Royle.] Not on that road. 5577. Mr. FeJwn.] There are engines within 3 cwt. 5578. Mr. Brown.] That is a fair way to put it to him. The Commissioners say that there are some engines on the same line within 3 ewt. of their weight, you should ask him if these engines — the Baldwin engines — are heavier on the road than other engines of a similar character. 5579. Mr. Hoyle.] No doubt Mr, Pohon is in possession of information that I have not got, in fact there are no papers before me, although it has been stated several times that these weights would be furnished to me. 5580. Mr. Brown.] That, I think, is not the fault of the Eailway Commissioners. 5581. Mr. Hoyle^ The Commission, so far as I am concerned, will to-day be over, and I have not had the opportunity of seeing these papers before me, and if it were not for the courtesy of Mr. Fehon once or twice, I would not have known the weights at all. 5582. Mr. JFehon.] The diagrams have been on the table all through the inquiry. 5583. Mr. Brown (to witness).] Presuming that there are similar engines, or within about 3 cwt. of the same weight as on the driving wheels of the Baldwin engines, 5584. Mr. Fehon.] The exact weights are, I think, 15 tons 1 cwt. on the Mogul and 15 tons 6 cwt. on the Baldwin. 5585. Professor Warren.] Do you say that the Mogul weighs that ? 6586. Mr. Fehon.] Tes ; the Scotch Tankee. 5587. Professor Warren.] I think you mean Beyer and Peacock's Mogul ? 5588. Mr. Fehon.] I think it is the Dubs engine. 5589. Secretary to the Bailway Gommission.] Tes ; they are called the Scotch Tankees — 426 class. They were obtained about 1889. 5590. Mr. Brown.] Well, considering that the Baldwin engines are only about 4 cwt. more than the others, do you think that they would be more injurious to the road ? Tes, they are of course the heavier weight, and a heavier weight upon one pair of wheels must be more injurious to the road 5591. Do you think the Baldwin engines are perfectly safe on your section ? Tes, they are. 5592. Has your road been reballasted lately ? Part of it. 5593-4. And is now in what state of repair ? It ia in splendid condition, or rather that portion which has been resleepered and reballasted. 5595. What is the width of the sleeper from centre to centre on what you have done ? The width is 10 inches at the joints, the next sleeper is 2 feet 6 inches, and the remainder are 2 feet 7 iiches. 5596. Then 2 feet 7 inches is the greatest width ? Tes. 5597. Professor Warren.] What weight of rail is that, is that a 71 vignole section? Tes. 5598. Have you any experience where an iron road has been laid and sleepers placed further apart ? Very little. 5599. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you think it perfectly safe for that road — I mean the iron rails ? I do not know how far the sleepers are apart, and so I could not say. 5600. Say that the sleepers are 3 feet apart on the straight, and 2 feet 8 inches to 2 feet 9 inches on the curve, with an iron rail 75 lb. to the yard ? I consider that the joints, where they are coupled with the fish-plates, are the weakest part of the road. The sleepers are 2 feet 8 inches and 2 feet 9 inches apart on the curve, but that is not at the joints ; they are nothing more than 10 inches at the joints. 5601. Mr. Fehon.] Do you know the engine called the Vulcan ? No ; I do not know it by that name. 5602. Some engines are harder on the road than others ; — is not that so. Would an engine with a rigid wheel base knock the road about more than a pliable engine ? An engine with good wheels and springs could not knock the road about. 5603. And suppose an engine has one of the driving-wheels without a flange, and there is no lateral pressure at all ; — would not that be easier on the road compared to an engine that has a flange on all the wheels ? That — I mean the engine with flanges on all the wheels — would be harder on a curve than the other. 5604. Instead of three flanges gripping the rail, you would have only two ? Tes ; two flanges should be easier than three. 5605. Have you noted that the Baldwin engines have only two ? Tes y I have noticed 5608 176 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IHQTJIET COMMISSIOIT— MINUTES OP ETIDEIfOE. Mr. 5606. And do you not think they would be more easy ?. Yes. D. Dunbar. 5507, jif^_ Brown.] So far as you know, are these Baldwin engines suitable to the permanent way of New tf^^^^o South Wales? Tes. ., , J^iay, iaa.s. ggQg^ j^^^ ^^ ^^^^ section, with the exception of the joints, you find nothing wrong with the road ? No; except in the case of the joints — they are a little weak. Frederick Elliott, being sworn, said : — M'r. 5609. I am a driver at Penrith, and drive between Penrith and Bathurst. I have been driving for about P. Elliott, twelve years, but I cannot be sure to a month or two of the time. io1ir''"T^ 5610. if/-. SbyZe.] Have you driven a Baldwin engine ? Yes. 12 May, 1892. ^q^j^ ^j^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ engine have you driven ? Both -passenger and goods, but the goods the most. 5612. "What are the number of the passenger engines you have driven? Nos. 452 and 457, passenger engines. 5613. Was the number 457, the engine that was in the accident at Tarana? Yes ; I believe it was. 5614. Did you drive 452 ? Yes ; I have driven eight diiferent American engines altogether up to the present time. 5615. Can you tell us whether, whilst you have been driving these engines, you have had any trouble with , them ? No ; not with regard to breaking down, except for brake handles for the tender. 5616. Have you never had any failures of the reversing gear ? No. 5617. Or the brake-gear or tubes ? No ; only the screw that takes the brake up, that was bent with me, but there has been no accident with the brake itself. 5618. What caused that to bend, was it through weakness ? I think it is on account of not being counter sunk, some have been counter sunk, and they have never bent since. 5619. Would it bend through the result of want of care on your part in handling your brake? No; I think not. 5620. Did you handle it with all the care you ought to ? Yes ; it was through it not being counter sunk. 5621. To take the end of the screw, you say ? Yes. 5622. Have you had any leaking tubes ? No. 5623. Then, so far as you are concerned, your engine has been perfect ? Yes ; with the exception of some of the ferrules coming out of the tubes, but they never leaked. 5624. You mean they came out when you have been cleaning the tubes ? Yes. 5625. Have you ever minutely examined the wheels of these engines ? Yes ; I always examined them on coming home from trips. 5626. Have you seen anything the matter with them ? No. 5627. No defects in the wheels of No. 457 ? Well, there aro holes in them from the casting when they were made. 5628. Do you say there is nothing in 457? I have seen what appeared to be cracks in them, but I would not like to swear that they are cracks. 5629. Did you scrape the paint off r No. 5630. You had only a look at them ? Yes. 5631. They might be marks of welds ? Yes ; they looked like cracks, but I could not say that they were. I cannot say throughout, anyhow. 5632. How did you find these engines take the curve ? So long as you go cautiously they take the curves very well. 5633. What do you mean by cautiously — about what rate of speed do you go when taking curves ? On a passenger engine, I went about 20 miles, or a little over. Around a curve I should go comfortably. 5634. You would not attempt to go beyond 20 miles an hour ? No ; not round an 8-chain curve. 5635. Would you go 20 miles an hour round an 8-chain curve ? Yes. 5636. And you find that the engine takes it perfectly ? Yes. 5637. Easy? Yes ; that is going into it. 5638. You have been driving other engines before these Baldwin goods engines ? Yes. 5639. Have you driven the Scotch Yankee ? No ; she is passenger. 5640. Have you driven the Consolidation, which is nearly equal in weight — what is called the old Consolidation, the old American engine — have you driven those ? Yes ; a good many times over the mountains. 5641. Having driven the American engines and now the Baldwins, do you find that the road, and particularly where iron rails have been laid, any worse than before ? I, do not think so. 5042. You found no extra motion with your engine indicating that there are bad places? I do not think so any more than before, some places is better. 5643. Have you any places where you would slow down on the road ? Yes. 5644. I do not mean on the bridges, but where else are there places ou the roads where vou have orders to slow down ? It is only on the bridges, and where they are relaying. 5645. When you were driving the passenger engines did you use Helensburgh coal? That is' only for the mail. 5646. Then you used ordinary coal ? Yes. 5647. Do they steam well ? Yes, now very well, they have been altered, and now they steam very well, at least they did so when I was last on them. 5648. Did you find when driving the American engines that they were rough on the curves ? The old ones. 5649. Yes ? Well, I should sooner drive the old ones than the new ones, I should consider myself much safer. 5650. Do you consider them easier on the road than the new ones ? Yes, th^t is my opinion. 5651. Have you overused the Vulcan? No, I do not remember. 5652. In comparison with the larger American engine, did you find the coal consumed by the Baldwin very much greater ? Well, we used more coal on the new than on the old ones. 5653. Much ? Well, about 10 to 15 cwt. on the trip, perhaps about a ton— that is, from Penrith to Bathurst and baclv ; I think that would be about it. 5654. And now about the loads you haul ; what loads do you take up the Lapstone ? I never took a passenger train direct from Penrith ; I have taken it from Katoomba. 5655. 0' BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQriET COMMISSIOK — MIKUTES OP ETIDEIfCE. 177 5655. Do you run in then with the mail ? Tes, I only went two trips. Mr. 5656. "Well, in the case of the trips you have driven ; in taking your goods train from Penrith to ^- Elliott. Katoomba, are you always assisted ? Tes. .— — ^~— > 657. By a push-up engine? Tes. ^^ May, 1892. 5658. And they come back light from Katoomba often ? I am not in a position to say whether trains come back light from there very often, but I have shoved up myself and I have come back light. 5659. In your case, where you have had to shove up behind, have you oftener come back light than with a load ? I do not think so. 5660. Have you any doubt about it ? "Well, I have not shoved up much for nearly two years, I have generally been in front, but I have come back light. 5661. As often as with a load ? Tes ; I think about equal. 5662. President.'] Why is that so. 5663. Mr. Brown.l Because he had not anything to carry I suppose. 5664. President.'] But what bea,ring has that upon this inquiry whether you have come back light or not. 5665. Mr. Soyle.] It is a question of economy, the contention is that having larger engines such as these they can take larger loa,ds, and I ask whether if they have to come back light it is any economy at all. 5666. Mr. JPehon.] It is a question upon a matter which is scarcely in issue, what this inquiry has to determine is whether the Baldwin engines are fit for the road and the road fit for the Baldwin engines. 5667. _ President^ I see what you mean now, Mr. Hoyle, but at first I did not see how coming back light was material, and as it affects only a matter of economy, I do not see still how it is material with regard to what we have to inquire into. But of course the pushing up is material. 5668. Mr. Soyle.] Do you know the weight on your engine or the weight on your driving-wheel ? It is 15 tons. 9 cwt., I think. 5669. "What load did you haul up from Penrith unassisted ? The greatest was twenty waggons loaded. 5670. That is 10 tons a waggon ? Tes. 5671. So that it was equal to 200 tons? Tes ; I think it was made up of seventeen waggons and one large brake-van and a small brake-van. 5672. Professor Warren.] "Well, that is equivalent to twenty vehicles ? Tes. 5673. Have you had any draw-gear break ? Tes, the draw-hooks and centre chains on the trucks. 5674. But on the engine ? No. 5675. And when you take a load of that kind up unassisted you take up an extra brake-van for the purpose of protection, and when you take a shove-up engine you do it for the purpose of assistance? Tes. 5676. Mr. Felion.] The push-up is really a brake, having regard to the power required to assist the trains. 5677. President.] In case anything should give way, I suppose. 5678. Mr. Brown.] It is quite evident you never had a conversation with this witness, Mr. Hoyle. 5679. Mr. Hoyle.] I have never had any conversation with any of these witnesses. 5680. Witness^ I have not had any conversation with Mr. Hoyle about this matter. Patrick Dwyer, being sworn, aaid :^ 5681. I am a ganger in the employment of Mr. Proudfoot, working on the section between the 105 miles Mr. and the 128 miles on the "Western Line. P- Dwyer, 5682. President.] Is Mr. Proudfoot working on this line ? r-— ''^— ~^ 5683. Mr. Fehon.] He had a contract under the Commission for relaying and putting the line in a better ■'•^ ^"Jt ^892 order. 5684. Mr. Hoyle.] "Where is the 105 miles and 128 miles ? Between Wallerawang and Bathurst. 5685. Have you had in your capacity of ganger a practical knowledge of the line, have you walked the lengths where your works are carried on ? "Tes., 5686. "Were you ganger when the road was reballasted between Sodwalls and Tarana ? The old road ? 5687. Tes, I mean the old road ? Tes. 5688. Do you consider that that part of the road near Sodwalls, where there are iron rails now is perfectly safe for the heavy traffic going over it ? No, I do not think it is. 5689. Mr. Fehon.] The witness asked if the old road or the new road is meant, I think you should define a little more clearly that it is the old road you mean, as for the new road it could not be better. 5690. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you have a knowledge of the road before it was lifted ? Are you speaking of the old road ? 5691. Tes, that portion which was not lifted beween Sodwalls and Tarana? No, I had not. 5692. "Were you on the work when it was lifted ? Tes. 5693. Since it has been relifted and reballasted, is it your opinion that taking into consideration the lifting and reballasting the road is perfectly safe for this heavy trafSc to go over it ? I do not think so. 5694. Why ? Because the joint sleepers are too far apart in the first place. 5695. Does that apply on the curves only or on the straight ? Both on the straight and on the curve. _ 5696. "Whilst you were relaying by the instructions of the Commissioners, will you tell me what spacing between the sleepers was carried out in that new work ;— what was the spacing ? Ten inches the joint sleepers from the centre, that is, first from the joint ; then 2 feet 6i inches the second sleeper, and 2 feet 7 inches right through the length and on the curve. 5697. Professor Warren.] That is what you are doing on your contract ? Tes, on the new works. 5698. What is the spacing on the road you are now reballasting ; on the old road that you lifted; — what is the spacing there? I never lifted any old road. 5699. "Well, that portion of the road which is being reballasted ;— how are the sleepers placed there? The j'oint sleepers are 10 inches, or, perhaps, 11 inches, on one side, and 18 inches, perhaps, on the other side. 5700. At the joint — that is 28 inches between the centres and the sleepers ? "Tes. 5701. "With the joint between ? Tes. 5702. Mr. Hoyle.] And you think it should only be 20 inches? Tes. 5703. Professor Warren'] Ton think that 10 inches joint and 2 feet Q\ inches and 3 feet 7 inches are all right and would carry the Baldwin engines ? Tes,' I think so, in safety. G— Z 5704, ^'* BALDWIN lOCOMOTITJLS INQITIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. 57o4_ 2£r Hoyle.] Do you know whether the engines which were running over the road previous to this /_^^^^ were too heavy for it. It appears there had been engines running over these roads with only 4 cwt. less IZMw'lSDZ t'^'^^ tlie present Baldwin engines;— do you consider that these Baldwin engines, which are heavier than the ■ previous ones, knock the road about more than the others did ? I cannot say. I might give an opinion if I had travelled on them, but I have not. 5705. Then you have not travelled on the Baldwin engines at all ? No. 5706. Do you know anything about the bridges ? No. 5707. Have you found in your esperienoe that the sleepers placed in the old road had a tendency to spread ? Yes ; I think they would. 6708. When you were reballasting these lines did you find many chairs and keys broken? Yes. 5709. How many chairs ? Sixty per cent. 5710. Sixty per cent? Yes ; sixty out of 100 of the chairs, that is on parts of it,_were broken. 5711. Would those parts be on the bad road— that is, on the road that was relif ted twelve months ago, when you reballasted the road. I understand you to say that you found this number of broken chairs ? Yes; when I was relaying. 5712. You are now referring to the relaying at Sodwalls ? Yes. 5713. And you say that you found as a rule about sixty out of 100 chairs broken ? Yes. 5714. Did the Baldwin engines run over that portion before the relaying took place; — Are you speaking of the section from the 113 miles 30 chains to the 114 miles 60 chains ? Yes. 5715. When you were reballasting the other portion of the line did you find many chairs broken there ? Yes, I did. 5716. Did you find in picking out your line any broken rails ? , No; I did not. 5717. You did not find any cracked rails ? No ; but I have seen men from the gangs take broken rails out. 5718. That was before ? Before I came to the part of the road that I had to relay. 5719. But was it on that portion of the road before you relaid it that you took these rails out ? Yes. 5720. When you were taking out the old rails, and putting in the new ones, did you find any of the old ones broken ? No. 5721. Where did you get the two broken rails from ? About one-half mile ahead of whereil was relaying. The flagman came back and told the inspector that there was a rail broken, and that there was no repairer to put it right, so that I had to send a couple of men back to relay it. 5722. Have you taken iron rails out anywhere else, and relaid the line with steel rails ? No ; I have not. 5723. So that you cannot say, from your experience, whether you found broken rails anywhere el.se ? No. 5724. Now, can you tell me what is the condition of the rails generally between Sodwalls and Tarana — that place that you ballasted, but did not relay ? They are in very bad order. 5725. Have you been on the job recently? Yes. 5726. When were you there last ? I was there nine weeks ago. 5727. And you say that the rails then were in very bad order? Yes. 5728. Did you find that many of the rails, when you were re-ballasting, were turned rails ? Yes. 5729. What is your experience, as a fettler ; do you find that a rail that has been turned is more easy to fracture than a rail that has not been turned ? Well, it all depends on where it is put in. If the sleepers are the same distance apart, and they do not the rail, it might make no difference ; but if they are put on at different distances, it would make a difference. Generally, where the rail rests on the chair, it is worn away, and if it were shifted 9 or 10 inches away it might not come in the same place, and it would make the rail weaker. 5730. Did you find many instances where the chair has Worked into the sleepers ? Yes. 5731. Would that cause the road to become unsteady, and easily to get out of gauge ? Yes. 5732. When you were relaving this portion of the road before did voutindtheroadprettvwelltoeaufe? No. 5733. Not to gauge? No. i- J s o 5734. How would you account for it getting out of gauge ; — would you account for it by the heavy rolling stock running over it ? Well, it might or might not be owing to that. 5735. You do not care to express an opinion upon it ? There is a different tempering in the rails. Some rails might be more easily worn than others, and the more the rails were worn, the narrower the gauge would be. 5736. That is the result of the process of flattening ? Yes ; on the top. 5737. But what I thought you meant was the sheering on the side of the rails ? No. 5738. Do you find many of the rails on this part bulged much ? Yes ; that is what I am speaking about. That is what makes them tight. 5739. Professor Warren.'] Flattened on the head, you mean ? Yes. 5740. Mr.MIion.] What was your experiencebefore you went with Mr. Proudfoot ? About fifteen years. 5741. Or the permanent- way ? No ; not on the permanent-way. 5742. What on ? On contractor's job. New construction. 5743. You have never been with contractors on the permanent-way ? Not on the permanent-way ; but I have been on with contractors on new construction work. 5744. How long an experience have you had with the permanent-way ? Fifteen months. 5745. Did you work on this section fifteen months ago ? Yes. 5746. And when did you relay,the section. When did you do the lifting and relaying that you speak about. Is that twelve months ago ; — how many ? It might be. 5747. Just think of what you are saying, because we know ? About five months ago. 5748. When did you commence ? I cannot say to a certain day. 5749. But you finished it five months ago ? I was on the job five months ago. 5750. I ask when you commenced relaying ; — did you commence relaying as soon as you went on the job ? No. 5751. How long afterwards ? About a week afterwards. 5752. And you continued until the last five months, and it was then complete ? No. 5753. That is what you said just now ? No ; I did not continue relaying. 5754. Never mind whether you were relaying or not. You finished relaying about five months ago .'' Yes. 5755. And the road was in very good order then ? Yes. 5756. BALDWnr LOCOMOXrVES IN-QriHT OOMMISSION—MINrTES OF ETIDESTOK, 179 5756. Do you know when the Baldwin engines commenced to run ? No, I cannot say. 5757. Well, they commenced running when you got the road in good order. You were speaking about sleepering curves. Suppose a curve is under 16 chains how many additional sleepers do you put in to the length of the rail as compared with the straight ? On the new road ? *^' 5758. On any road whether new or old? It ail depends upon what the inspector tells me to put in. 5759. There is no choice at all. There is a standard for it ? Well, what is the standard. 5700. That is what I am asking you. Tou do not know ? Tes, I do know. 5761. Supposing it is a 15-chain curve, how many sleepers do you put in ? Twelve sleepers. 5762. And if it is over 15 chains ? Twleve sleepers. 5763. Then there is no difference in the number of sleepers whether it is under or over 12 chains ? No. 5764. Then you have not followed instructions ? There ought to be a difference. 5705. Tou say the engines are too heavy for the road. But at the same time you say that you have never travelled on one of them ? I did not say that the eneiines were too heavy for the road. 5766. Well, I took down your evidence and I have ft here ? I cannot say anything at all about the engines. I never travelled on one. 5767. Tou cannot say whether they are injurious to the road or not ? I cannot say. 5768. What is your opinion on the matter. Do they do more damage to the road than any other engines? My opinion is — 5769. We do not want your opinion, we want actual information as to what you have seen, because you are not here as an expert ? Well, I am sure I cannot say. I cannot answer that question. 5770. Alright. Tou say you have 60 per cent, of broken chairs. Was it after you had taken the road up that you found you had only forty good chairs out of the 100 ? No ; they were broken after the old road was taken out. 5771. M.r. Brown.'] That is not what you said just now. Tou said that when you went to take the old road up you found 60 per cent, of chairs broken ? Tes. 5772. That is not the question Mr. Pehon is putting to you now. He asks whether it was after you had taken the road up that you had 40 per cent, of good chairs. He wants to know whether you broke the chairs yourself in taking the old road up and had to get new ones to replace them with ? We did not use any chairs in relaying the road. 5773. But no matter, pay attention to Mr. Fehon's question. Eemember where you are. Tou say that when you puUed the road up you found only 40 per cent, of the chairs good and that the rest had been broken. Do you mean that that per centage was broken before you touched the road at all? Tes; there were only forty good chairs out of every 100. 5774. Mr. Fehon.'] And how long ago was that ? About four or five months ago. 5775. But you said you had finished it five months ago ? About five months ago I said I was relaying. 5776. Tou said you were relaying from eighteen months ago to five months ago, and now I ask you when it was that these chairs were taken out ? It was between four and five months ago. 5777. That is enough. 5778. President.] Tou say you worked on the length from 105 to 128 ? Tes. 5779. What work have you done on that length. Have you relaid it ? Tes ; parts of it. 5780. Do you know where the accident occured lately ? Tes. 5781. Have you relaid that length ? No, but it was relifted twelve months ago. 5782. Did that part seem all right ? Tes ; to my idea it did. 5783. Nothing wrong with it as to the sleepers or anything else ? No ; I cannot say that there was. 5784. They were sufficiently close together were they ? Tes. 5785. Mr. Soyle.] What I want to know is this — were the broken chairs that you have referred to broken by your people in taking them out or did you find them broken when you got to the I'oad. Were they broken by you in taking them out ? No ; they were not. 5786. They were broken before you touched the road ? Tes. George Frederick Evans, being sworn, said : — 5787. I am a fireman on the New South Wales Grovernment Eailways. Mr. 5788. President.] How long have you been on the railways ? Nine years. Q-. P. EvanB. 5789. What have you done during that time ;— how long have you been a fireman ? Seven years. r-^ \ 5790. And before that ? Well, I have been driving:, too. ■ 12 May, 1892, 5791. What part of the line do you do duty on ? Well, I am stationed at Bathurst. 5792. Prom Bathurst to where ? Penrith at the present time. 5793. Mr. JLoyle?^ Were you firing on the express train on the night of the accident? Tes. 5794. Tou were firing the engine that drew the train that met with that accident ? Tes. 5795. Can you tell me whether that train was stuck up before you got to the place where the accident happened ? Tes. We took charge of the train at Katoomba, and going up Dargin's Bank— that is entering Clarence Siding station — she slipped, and stopped, though only for a second ; she lifted again as soon as she got sand. It was a nasty greasy night, and the sand-pipe was choked. We had a very heavy- load on too. 5796. What load had you on ? Twenty-two and a half. 5797. Twenty-two and a half carriages ? Tes ; twenty-two and a half was the load. 5798. And you had no assistance ? No. i i_ ■ -nr 5799. Were you stuck up more than once? Twice. Though it was only for a second each time. We lifted her again as soon as she got sand. • c tt- 5800. President.] "Whatdoyoumeanby" lifted "her again;— do you mean that you went on again? Tes,sir. 6801. M:r. Hoyle.] Have you fired on any other engine besides this one? Tes. 5802. What is your experience as regards the engine ? As a fireman? 5803. Tes ? Well, I like the engines. They are good steamers, and pull well. 5804. Have you had any breaks with any of them since you have been here ? No ; not firing. 5805. Had you when you were driving ? Tes ; though it was not the engine's fault. It was the result of a collision. She broke a bufi'er-plate. 5806. 180 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION— MINUTES 01- EVIDENCE. 1^. 5806. And do you know of any failures, except this particular collision ? No ; it ^^«„^°*;X" Thif w^llf e. S. Evans. 5307. Then, i^your opinion, these engines are good for steam and good engines generaUy. , They will ,f;:r^^, haul the loads, and do everything that is required of them ? They are master of ^J^"^ l°f : . 12 Slay. 1892. ^ ^^ ^j^4^^ ^^ ,tj,er occasion-on a wet night-you have had any f PP^^g *<> P^t up with ;-though, as a matter of fact, you have not had many wet nights up there lately ? It is always Islrwrd^^^^^^^ any other failures of the kind ;-I mean have you been stuck up on wet nights on any hut those two occasions to which you have referred ? No, sir. „.„„;„„ j„v„, T,„„ 5810. Do you have to use sand frequently ? No ; at least I cannot say whether the engme-driver has his hand on the sand cock or not, hut you would have to use sand with a light engine if you were startmg in a fog on the mountains. „ , i j j 4.i,„i jj. ,■„ „„; i 5811. At all events, you consider the load you are speaking of was a heavy load, and that it is owing to that that you were stuck up twice on the night of the accident ? No. It was owing to the greasy night, I think. She walked the load off on other occasions. , 5812. President. 1 You know where the accident happened near Tarana •'' /es, i was tnere. 5813. Before that sad accident happened were you stuck near there, or did anything else happen ? No. 5814. Everything was going alright? Yes, there was something about two years ago, but i was not on the train then. ,, ,, t ■ . • ii,j-j.o 5815. But I am talking about this particular night. The engine had not stopped just previously had it ? No, she merely came to a dead stand when the accident happened, just as if the air pipe had burst. We did not hear any crash at all. 5816. There was nothing wrong with the engine ? No. i.,tt. 3 e i,i 5817. How far had you got on the curve when the accident happened? From what 1 heard, trom what my mate said he thought it was about 98 yards. j . o tt 4.1, 5818. At all events you had taken the curve right enough, and were going round it .'' Xes, the engine was round the curve. i -rrr j.- i, -u i 4. 5819. Professor Warren.] Of course the uncoupling of the hose-pipe puts on the Westmghouse brate at once ? Yes. . n • • j. i.i, 1 5820. So that pulled you up ? Yes. That and the back portion of the tram being against the rock cutting. I have been in a train when a hose-pipe has burst before, and the sudden stopping of the tram threw us off our seats. We did not know anything of the accident until we went back. We thought it was a broken hose-pipe and went back to look for it. 5821. Of course the hose-pipe had been broken aa a matter of fact. 5822. President.l Where was the broken rail ? Well into the curve. 5823. And is that where you say vou measured 98 yards ? 5824. Mr. Koyle.'] It was not on the curve that the rail broke was it ? No, not in the centre of the curve. It was I'ust at the commencement of it. We were 98 yards in when we stopped. 5825. President.'] What I want to know is, how far the broken rail was from the beginning of the curve? I think it is about the second rail in the curve. But at the time I was too much excited at seeing so many wounded people lying about to notice very particularly. 5826. Mr. Fchon.'] If you had not had a Baldwin engine on your train, you would have had two ordinary engines? Yes, with that load. 5827. And would you have been able to pull up so quickly with two engines worked by two sets of men as you did with this Baldwin engine ? No, the leading engine would not have had the brake on at all. 5828. And if you had run another 6 or 8 yards the chances are that the people in the sleeping car might have been killed ? Yes, all killed. . 5829. So that the safety of the passengers on that train depended as a matter of fact on the Baldwin engine ? Yes. 5830. Mr. FeJion.] That is a fact. 5831. Professor Warren.'] That is to say from the fact that the Westinghouse brake could not have been applied by both engines ? Well, the pilot engine would not have touched the brake. 5832. Quite so. The pilot engine would have been running independently of the other engine as far as brake power is concerned. It would have had brake power but it would not have applied it, and as a consequence that if you had had two engines on the train you would have had the extra momentum caused by the pilot engine running on after the accident had happened. 5833. President.] Then, if that deduction is correct, the fact that a Baldwin engine was on the train when the rail was broken resulted in saving the lives of a great many persons. 5834. Professor Warren.] Yes; but then as a set-off against that it must be remembered that the Westinghouse brake could not be applied to both engines at once. 5835. Mr. Hoyle.] It is the Westinghouse that saved the train. 5836. Professor Warren^ That is perhaps a matter of opinion. 5837. Mr. Fehon (to Witness).] I will ask you a question or two, not in the way of eliciting evidence, but to show how matters are being managed with regard to these inquiries ; — have you been in communica- tion with Mr. Schey since this accident ? No. 5838. Did you not write to him on the 2nd of May ? No. 5839. Had you a letter from him ? Yes ; I received a letter on the 29th. 5840. Mr. Soyle.] I must object to this, Mr. President. What has it to do with the Baldwin Engine Inquiry. I must object to such matter being imported into the proceedings. 5841. Mr. JPehon.] Well, I am only referring to a letter that has come into our hands in a perfectly legitimate manner. I may say at the outset, as was said at the beginning of the inquiry, that so far as the facts to be inquired into are concerned, we face them with the full knowledge that what we have done is right, and if we had to deal with the same case again we should repeat to-day what we did then, butwe do object to the way in which our servants are undermined by persons who are not in the service now. Here is a letter addressed by Mr. Schey to a locomotive driver at Bathurst — " G-. Evans, Esq.," and in this letter he says that Mr. Hoyle has gone to Bathurst to make inquiries 5842. Mr. Hoyle.] I object to all this. It is entirely irrelevant to the matter that we have in hand. 5843. President (to Mr. Eehon) .] I do not think you can read the letter, because it has nothing to do with BAXDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQiriET COMMISSION — MINUTES 03? ETIDENCE. 181 with this inquiry. No matter how wrong or how monstrous it may be we have still nothing to do with it. Mr. How can what Mr. Schey may have done affect Mr. Hoyle in regard to this Inquiry. ^- ^- ^Tans. 5844. Ji^f- Fehon.'] They are coupled. ' -.^-— n 5845. President.'] I do not think so. ^2 May, 1892. 5846. Mr. Fehon.] I mean in this letter. 5847. Mr. Brown.] They are not coupled, and I do not think it is fair to say so. 5848. President.] Without in any way expressing an opinion upon Mr. Schey's conduct, I will say that I draw a very marked distinction between Mr. Hoyle and Mr. Schey. 5849. Mr. Fehon.] So do I. 5850. Mr. Hoi/le.] If there is anything that I pride myself upon as a man, it is doing things in a manly way, and I wish it to be understood that I have not written to a person in the department in connection with the Inquiry. I have not instructed Mr. Schey to make any inquiries on my behalf, nor has Mr, Schey given me any information. All that I have done I have done upon my own responsibility, and ia many cases I do not know where I have got my information from. Some of it has come to me by means of anoymous letters, and all of it has been brought to me unsolicited. I based my charges in the first instance upon public documents furnished by the Commissioners themselves. Something in those docu- ments alarmed me, and I decided to take my present course of action, and I have done it fairly and honestly, and I deny absolutely that I have had any communication with a railway employee. I would seorn to ask any man to give me information behind the backs of his officers, because if I was an officer in the department to-morrow, the man who gave information behind my back I should deal very severely with him. 5851. Mr. Fehon.] I have no wish to impute anything dishonorable to Mr. Hoyle. Although Mr. Hoyle has left the service of the Commissioners, when there we always esteemed him as an honorable straight- forward man, but I say it is a rascally shame the way this service is being undermined by some who are bringins; discredit upon honest men, and using our employees for the purpose. It is too bad also the way in which men are brought to the inquiries to give evidence on matters that they know nothing about. 5852. President.] I cannot deal with that, but if Mr. Schey were here, and it was proved that this letter was written by him, then I should make such remarks as I thought were necessary. I want Mr. Hoyle to understand, however, and I want you to understand that he and Mr. Schey are not in any way associated by the members of this Commission. I do not know that they are associated, except in so far as being Members of Parliament, and that does not necessarily make much association between them. Mr. Hoyle pays that as far as he is concerned he has never consulted a single person in the department in regard to the matter that he has brought before this Commission, and I believe him. Indeed one can see that it is so from the fact that he often puts witnesses in the box who clearly do not help his case, and assuming as you may be allowed to assume that he is mistaken, you must admit that he is doing everything in a fair and manly way. 5853. Mr. Fehon.] We quite admit that. 5854. Mr. Brown.] We all re-echo those sentiments. 5835. Professor Warren.] Tes, I certainly think that Mr. Hoyle has been exceedingly fair in the way in which he has conducted the case. 5856. Mr. Hoyle.] I am exceedingly glad to hear these remarks from the members of the Commission. It is especially gratifying to me to know that I am not misunderstood by them, because I have suffered a good deal in that direction. The last witness that I have to call, until Tuesday, is G-eorge Yates. 5857. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Fehon).] Do I understand that you will put Mr. Ehodes in the box then ? George Tates, being sworn, said : — 5858. I am shed foreman at Dubbo. G-. Yates. 5859. President!] How long have you been there ? A little over eight months. ^-^v.^-^ 5860. And where were you before that ? In the Eveleigh shop. 12 May, 1892. 5861. Mr. Hoyle.'] Are you the locomotive officer at Dubbo ? Tes. 5862. I suppose there are some of the Baldwin engines there ? "We have four of the Baldwin engines there. 5863. Consolidation goods engines ? No, we have no goods engines there; they are all passengerengines. 5864. Have you had any engines breaking down in your district ? One. 5865. What was the cause of the break down ? A valve-buckle broke. 5866. Was that on the occasion of a trial of this engine? Oh, that would make two failures. But that was hardly in my district. 5867. Well, as 1 do not intend to call any other witnesses, you might tell me about it, if Mr. Fehon does not object ? Tes ; an engine. No. 453, was sent to Bourke to bring down a load of fifty trucks of stock and it failed on the road. But Mr. Bough is in charge of the Nyngan district, and as the engine failed near Byrock it was not in my part of the road. Tou could not call that a break down however. 5868. Professor Warren.] What was the failure in the case of the engine that was doing the trial ? The valve-buckle broke. It broke near Byrock, and since a valve-buckle has broken on the road. 5869. And is that the only accident you have had in your district? That is the only accident. 5870. Since they have been with you have you closely examined the wheels of the passenger engines ? Tes. 5871. Do you find any defects in them ? No, not real defects. 5872. Well, what you imagine to be defects ? Well there are one or two that you might call welding 5873. President.] Do you mean in the spokes ? Tes, in one or two of them. Nothing further. 5874. Mr. Hoyle.] There appeared to be cracks in the wheels ? Well, I would not call them cracks. 5875. What is the number of the engines ? 453, 446, and 447, though that is down here for repairs. 5876. It is down here doing a trial now, I believe ? Tes, 449 and 455. . , ■, n . 5877. Have you examined the wheels of the whole of them ? I think 447 has most of the detects, if we can call them defects, in the spokes. 5878. Do you find these engikes do their work well ? Tes. 5879. And the only failure has been breaking a valve-buckle? Tes. When I say that 453 broke down in Byrock she was not stationed in our district, she was sent up to the particular work over which she broke down. We have had one failure whilst the engines have been with us. 5880. i82 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITKS DfQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDBNCB. - Mr. 5880. No failures with the brake-gear ? Xo. **• **■■'■ 5881. No leaking in the tubes of the boilers ? "Well, we have had a tube weeping now and then, but that ^' ■ 5882. Have you done more repairs to these engines than you would to new engines generally ? Well, when I was called away to come down here I was compiling a return, and I believe the Scotch Yankees will be heavier in repairs than the Baldwins. 5883. I suppose you know nothing about the permanent-way ? No. 588i. What I mean to say is that it has been no part of your duty to look after the permanent-way ? No ; but I may say that t believe the Baldwin engines may be lighter than some of the engines we have been running from Dubbo. 5885. Have you got the Scotch Yankee there now ? No. 5886. Then your experience is that the Baldwin engines, with their greater weight on the driving wheel, would be lighter upon the permanent-way than some of the engines that you have ? Yes ; lighter than the Vulcans, for instance. William Ehodes, being sworn, said : — "W Bhodes. 5887. I am an engineer of the Baldwin Locomotive Works. ^.^^^v,,.-^' 5888. Mr. Felon^ How long have you been with the Baldwin Company, Mr. Ehodes ? _ Twelve years. 12 May, 1892. 5889. Had you any previous experience ? 1 was ten and a half years on the Pennsylvania Eailroad. 5890. What number of locomotives do the Baldwin Company turn out each year ? Over 900. 5891. Do you know the total number of locomotives that the company has builtH They have built over 12,000 up to the present time. 5892. I simply ask you this question to prove the importance of the works with which you are associated ; — have you seen any of the recent Board returns ? Yes, I have. 5893. What is given as a total number of engines in Grreat Britain ? Sixteen thousand— a little over. 5894. Then your company have made three-quarters as many engines as there are being used on the railways of Great Britain ? Yes. 5895. Is it usual for a company to send an officer to see that the engines are properly fitted up? Yes, sir. 5896. Is it customary for the firm to receive independent specifications of the engines to be built for the persons ordering the engines ; — for instance, when a railway company is ordering an engine from the Baldwin Company, do they send a specification describing the minute parts of the engine, or simply do they give you the leading points ? They simply give us the leading points ; we furnish specifications for their perusal. 5897. Of course the breaking of axles has come under your observation since you have been here? Yes. 5808. What is your opinion with regard to iron axles ? Iron axles are used very extensively. It is a matter of opinion amongst railway experts whether they prefer iron or steel axles. It is a very open question. 5899. What is the custom in America ; — is it the custom to use iron or steel ? Iron. 5900. What is your opinion with regard to axles ; — do you make them yourself or do you order them from other firms ? We generally purchase them from manufacturers of axles. 5901. Are you aware what class of material was specified for the axles for the engines ? Iron or steel. 5902. We left it to the judgment of the Baldwin Company to use which they thought best ? Yes. 5903. What was specified with regard to the testing of the axles on that occasion ? Not"hing that I know of. 5904. What is your custom with regard to testing ? We depend upon the manufacturers for their axles' when we purchase them. 5905. As a rule, you do not test these axles ? No ; not scrap axles. 5906. Would a test be any guarantee that if one axle is good the others are good also ? Hardly ; the drop test is not the result with regard to a scrap axle. 5907. What is the weight usually adopted in the United States ? It has been from 67 lb. to 70 lb. per yard. I understand they are going into heavier rails. 5908. How long is it since they began to go into heavier rails? About two and a half years. 5909. And that would be on railroads where there is an immense traffic ? Yes ; a heavy traffic. 5910. Do you consider that the additional weight of the rail is for the purpose of getting a longer life out of the rail or for additional strength in order to carry the weight of the engines ? Well, in both cases. Where they adopt a very heavy weight on the axle, on the rails between New York and Philadelphia, they have adopted a heavier rail also. But the lighter rails are almost universal throughout the United States. 5911. What is the weight of the locomotives ; — I am speaking of the heaviest of the locomotives running on the principal roads of the United States at the present time. Take, for example, the Baltimore and Ohio road. It is a road that has been mentioned very often during this inquiry, and we are supposed to have adopted the Baltimore and Ohio style of engine. What is the weight of rail there ? The main line from Baltimore West is a 67 -lb. rail. The new line between Baltimore and New York is built of a heavier rail. 5912. And are these heavier rails running on the 67-lb. rail ? Engines a little heavier than hose you have imported. 591S. That would be a steel road, I presume ? Yes ; a steel road. 5914. And what is the weight on the driving-whefel on those engines ? They run nearly 15 tons, on an average. 5915. That is, there are some a little heavier and some a little lighter, but the average is 15 tons ? Pourteen and three-quarters tons, I think. 5916. What is the weight on our axles ? Fourteen tons 8| cwt., on an average, I think, as. the weight was taken here. When they were weighed in Philadelphia they v/eighed rather lighter. 5917. What were our instructions to the company about weight on axles ? That the weight on the axles was to average 14 tons 10 cwt. 5918. And have you complied with that ? Yes, sir. 5919. That is, you have averaged that ? Yes. 5920. But your driving-wheel is heavier ? Yes. 5921. BALBWIN- LOCOMOTITES INQUIRY COMMISSIOK — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 183 5921. Will you explain why it could be allowed to be heavier than the other wheels ? We always make Mr. the driving-wheel heavier ; it has no flange, and has nothing to do with the guiding of the engine. In ^- ^liodgs. fact, it is simply a weight rolling over the road in going into a curve, and has no effect on the rails at all. .f!7'''^TT^^ 5922. Ton are aware of the weight of the rails on the New South Wales line ? Yes. i-SMaj, 1892. 5923. The lightest rail here is heavier than the average rail used in America ? Yes. 5924. President.'] But, as a matter of fact, our rails are of iron and they are not. 5925. Mr. Fehon.l Our rails are of steel and iron. 5926. Fresident.'] The 75-lb. rails are of iron, are they not? 5927. Mr. Fehon.l Yes ; and the 71-lb. rails are steel. There may be a few lengths of 71-lb. rails on the road, but they are very few. The rule is that the 75-lb. rails are iron and the 71-lb. rails are steel. 5928. (To Witness.) What plan has been followed in the constructiou of these locomotives ? The regular system in the shops and the system of inspection that has always existed there. 5929. What is your system of inspection ? As the parts pass from department to department they are inspected by the leading hand of each place, and also by the foreman ; and then there is a general inspector, whose duty it is to pass from department to department and inspect everything, and also make the final inspection before the engine leaves the works. 5930. What defects have developed themselves in these engines, taking first the truck axles? The truck axles ran hot, and we used every endeavour to get them to run cool, with partial success, and finally some of them broke. 5931. You were fitting up other engines at the time these axles broke, so they were under your observation daily? Yes. 5932. President.] Did Mr. Ehodes come here to set these engines going? 5933. Mr. Fehon.] I am speaking of the bogie axles that have been replaced. 5934. President.] Yes, I know ; but did Mr. Ehodes come out here to set the engines going ? 5935. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 5936. (To Witness.) There have been some remarks about the reversing-gear ; — will you say what you consider are its defects ? The screw of the reversing-gear is something that we do not use in America. The space was very confined in which it was placed, and after the engine had been running for a time the fulcrum-pin was broken. We replaced all the fulcrum-pins at the expense of the Baldwin Company. 5987. Your roads are more level that these, are they not, and so the reversing gear would not be so essential as on the steeper gradients on the new South Wales Eailways ? We never use screw reversing gear. We always use a lever. 5938. Who manufactured the break gear? The break gear was manufactured by the United Sates Brake Manufacturing Company. That company is considered by the Westinghouse Company as one of the best houses in the States, and we have never had any complaint about their work before. I may say that the Westinghouse brake is on the goodsengines, and most of these failures have occurred with the engines that have been coupled to goods trains bn which we know the breakage was very very severe, because the engine has to haul the whole train, without the assistance of a brake-van ; but on the passengers they have a continuous brake throughout the train, and the strain is not so much on the engine. 5939. There has been a great deal said throughout this inquiry about the driving-wheels ; it is said there are flaws in the'wheels, or what are called flaws ; can you tell the Commission the process of manu- facture, whether it is a new or an old system of making wheels ? This system of making wheels was introduced by the superintendent of the works some years ago, and we have made a great many of them. They are considered a strong wheel. There are little places where the film of iron near the hub presses over the spoke of the wheel, which would apparently look like a crack, but it is not a crack. It is just a fihn of iron that had been pressed round the wheel. The committee of the IVanklin Institute sent to examine the process of making the wheels, and reported in favour of them. We have the same wheels running in the United States, in Mexico, and in the Argentine Eepublic, and so far we have had no failures with them. 5940. And did not all scientists who saw the process award a medal for it ? Yes ; they recommended that the inventor should receive a gold medal. 5941. Professor Warren.] A Franklin gold medal ? Yes. I have the book here if you care to see it. 5942. Mr. Fehon.] What engines are the Baldwin Company at present making? They are making the very heavy engines now. They have 19^ tons on the axle. 5943. And what would be the weight of the engine ? It is given in one of these papers. 5944. You say that some of them are 19| tons ; do you mean British tons or American tons ? British tons— 2,240 lb. to the ton. American short tons contain 2,000 lb. 5945. Professor Warren.] What number of the Hailroad Gazette is it that you have ? 12th February, 1892. The total weight of the engine is 123,000 lb. 5946. Mr. Fehon.] What weight of rail is that engine running on ? It is running over the Brown Buck road, between Pensylvannia and New York. That has a heavier rail. It is a rail weighing about 76 lb. to the yard. 5947. A steel rail, about 76 lb. to the yard. 5948. Is not that the weight of the engine itself, without the tender ? Yes ; we never include the tender. 5949. Are you aware that your company raised any objection to the weight we were adopting on the wheels ? They considered it was unnecessary to reduce the weight. They pointed out that they thought it unnecessary, 5950. Professor Warren.] That is stated in the correspondence as follows : — " The proposed reduction of weight per axle will, we fear, cause disappointment in the performance of the engines. We judge the same work is expected of them as that stated in the Eailroad Gazette, as being performed by the Balti- more and Ohio engines. It should be fully understood that their deficiency will be correspondingly reduced. As we understand that the permanent way of New South Wales Eailways is of a much more sub- stantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad, we see no reason why the engines built for the latter could not be adopted entire. We should be gratified if on further consideration this is decided upon." 5551. Mr. Fehon.] Did not you build these Baltimore and Ohio engines yourself? Yes; I was in the shop when they were being built. 5951^. You were superintending their construction, were you not ? I was assistant-superintendent at the shop. 5952. 184 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTJIET COMMISSIOS-— MlNrTES OP EVIDENCE. --, ^^- 5952. And you were out in this Colony some few years ago to superintend the erection of the other •W. Rhodes, pugi^eg -which have been bought from the Baldwin Company ? Yes. i^lIT^o 5953. And knowing the state of the railways in New South Wales, you consider that we would have been 1/ Ma.y, 1892. ^^^^^^-^^ justified in adopting a heavier engine than the one we had ? I consider that the Baltimore and Ohio engines would have been very suitable for the road. , • , . 5954. President.'] Tou refer to the modifications about which the Company make some complaints m their letter ? Tea. I think the New South Wales roads are better than the Baltimore and Ohio road— more secure. . , -, r ^i ■ n 5955. Mr. Felon.] It has been stated that there were defects in the draw-gear of the engine. Can you explain that ? The draw-gear was made rather light, owing to an error made in our office, and when it was pointed out to the Baldwin people they authorised us to replace them. . i i j. 5956. The Eailway Commissioners of New South Wales gave you instructions to make a heavier hook for the engines ? Tes. . 5957. With regard to the modifications made in the Colony, did they affect the stability ot the engines ? No, not at all. We changed the boiler from a waggon top to a straight boiler m order to reduce the weight. 5958. Tou have seen a great deal of the engines since they were erected. What is your opinion regarding them, as to their efficiency and stability for the work for which they were obtained ? I consider them a very suitable engine, and a good working engine. .jit. 5959. Are these engines quite up to the average of the engine that you have supplied the other countries, and those that you use at home ? Quite up to the average. 5960. In fact, I presume thev are better in some respects, inasmuch as we have them fitted with copper fire-boxes and brass tubes ? "Tes ; I consider that our people made more of an effort over these engines than they usually do. , 5961. It has been stated that the wheels are considered light. What is your opinion, as a mechanical engineer as to the weight of these wheels, taking into consideration the general weight of the locomotives and the work they have to do ? I think they are quite heavy enough. 5962. And it has 'been stated that the boss of the wheel is lighter than it should be ? I cannot see that it is. 5963. Is that the ordinary size boss — the size which you usually put in engines of that character ? Eor that class of wheel. 5964. But if you were making a cast wheel ? I may make a bigger box then. 5965. The Company wished the engines to be heavier, but we wish to have them lighter, and how did they do it ? By putting on a straight boiler instead of a waggon top boiler rising over the fire-box. 5966. And anything else. Was the engine shortened up in any other respect H No ; those were the principal changes. 5967. Well, the wheels were made 2 inches lower, I thinlc ? Yes ; the Baltimore and Ohio engines were 5 feet 4 inches. 5S68. It was said that there was a danger of the axles ^^'orking loose. Is there anything exceptional in the fixing of the axle on those engines from your usual practice ? No ; the axle is fixed on with pressure in the usual way. I do not think they would work loose. 5969. Of course, you know as a fact that one or two of the axles have worked loose. Is it a usual thing for engines from your works for the axles to work loose ? No, we do not often get ax'.es working loose, though occasionally an axle will work loose. 5970. I suppose you cannot account for it with regard to these engines? No, I cannot. 5971. It has been said that the rim of the -wheel is'defective. Are you aware of any defects in it ? No. 5972. What is the general opinion of drivers in the United States as to these large engines. Do they favour them, or do they dislike them ? Oh, they like a good sized engine. I never heard anything unfavourable with regard to them. 5973. Do you think they prefer them to the smaller engines ? Well, a larger engine means more work for the driver ; that is all there is about it. 5974. I do not think there is anything else I want to ask you. 5975. Mr. Hoyle.] Can you tell me how long ago it is since the first of this class of engines was made. I refer to the heavy engines — ^the Baltimore and Ohio engines ? Somewhere about 1889 or 1890 ; I am not sure which. 5976. The first of them were made in 1889 or 1890 ? Tes. 5977. How long ago is it since you were in America ? I left in June, 1890. 5978 Were you in America, in the Baltimore and Ohio shops, when these engines were being constructed ? Do you mean the first Baltimore and Ohio engines ? 5979. These engines for the colonial Government ? No. 5980. Were you in the shops in America when these engines first began to run ? Wliich engines ? 5981. The Baltimore and Ohio engines ? The engines running on the Baltimore and Ohio railways? 5982. These large Baldwin engines. Were you in America when they were first made for the Baltimore and Ohio Company ? Yes ; the New York, Lake Erie, and AVestern engines were the first heavy engines made. 5983. You say that the first heavy engine was made in 1889 or 1S90 ? Yes. 5984. Do you know that the Baltimore and Ohio Company selected a new standard rail — a steel rail 85 lb. to the yard — in 1891 ? I had left the United States at that time. 5985. Is the Engineering News a good and reliable paper ? Yes. 5986. I have it here. Let me quote from it. Here is a paragraph headed: — "Standard 85-lb. rail and joint, Baltimore and Ohio E.E., 1891. The Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad has approved and adopted under date of May, 1891, a new form of standard rail section and joint, which are shown in the accom- panying cuts, prepared from blue prints, furnished by Mr. H. T. Douglas (M. Am. Soc. C.E.), chief engineer. This track is to be laid on the division between Baltimore, Md., and Philadelphia, Pa., which is now laid with rails weighing 67-lb. per yard." Well, that is a different division altogether, Mr. Hoyle. 5987. But does the Baltimore and Ohio engine run there ? Not on that division. 5988. They run between Baltimore and Ohio ? They run from Baltimore West. Philadelphia is west of Baltimore. 5989. Well, would that description apply to these rails ? It does not refer to the road on which engines similar to these run, but it does refer to the engines running between New York and Washington. 5990. Is it not a fact that where these engines are running they are laying a heavier rail ? Now, no doubt they are adopting a heavier rail all over America. 5991. BALDWIN LOCOilOTrV'ES INQITIET COIIMISSION — MIHTTES OF ETIDENCE. IgS 5991. Professor Warren.] That is the tendency of American practice, is it not ? Tes. Mr. 5992. Mr. Hoyle.'] "Well, would that not be as much to meet the additional weight of the engines as for ^- Bhodes. the purpose of economy ? No, doubt it is more economical. '""""'^ ^ 5993. President.'] Do you understand the question ;— would it be as much to meet the weight of the -^^ '^^'^''' ^^^^ engine as for the^purpose of economy — that is what Mr. Hoyle asks you, and you say, " No doubt it is more economical "—I want you to answer the question as he puts it ? AVell, I do not know what they had in their mind at the time the railroads began to adopt the heavier rail. 5994. Mr. Hoyle.] Is it not your experience that where you get a heavier rolling you get a heavier rail practically with regard to rolling stock of this description ; or I might put it this way, do you think that the Baltimore and Ohio Company has been influenced by the great weight of these engines by putting down a heavier track ? They are putting down a heavier track where they are running these engines. 5995. Well what is the difference in the weight of the driving-wheel of the engine running through the St. Clare tunnel and these engines ? Well, I think they are about 20 tons on the driving-wheel. 5996. They have 19i tons on their driving-wheel have they not ? The St. Clare tunnel is a very short road. 5997. Is it not a fact that they have laid down a heavier rail there ? It may be so ; the line is only a mile and a half long. 5998. What is the difference between the weight of the engine as it is used in America, and the weight of the engine we have got out here ? From the Railway Gazette of 8th June, 1891, page 421, I find that one of the drivers on the American engines is 1,002 lus. 5999. With regard to these axles, does not your company provide for any tests from the persons from whom they get them ? Kot as a rule. 6000. Then you take the most reputable firms, and you take the axles that they make for you in the belief that they will be all right ? Yes. 6001. Can you tell us whether the axles turned out very bad ? W(511, they run hot, and why they run hot it is difficult to say, but whilst they were hot they finally broke. 6002. Do you think that the axles you supplied here are the usual class of iron you supplied for axles in America? It may have been a little inferior iron, but it was impossible to test it. 6003. President.] Tou mean that the axles which broke were a little inferior iron? Tes. 6004. Mr. Hoyle.] We spoke about the loose wheels. When you are putting on the wheels, is there not some standard pressure that is used ? Tes. 6005. If a wheel goes on at less than that pressure, ought it not be convincing that the wheel is too loose ? Tes. 600(5. And do you think that the wheel ought to be put on if it is too loose ? No. 6007. And would that not imply neglect on the part of the man who was putting it on ? Certainly. 6008. But when you are doing anything so important as putting on wheels is there not some officer whose duty it is to stand by and see that the work is done properly ? There is a leading hand standing by. 6009. Do you consider, as in the case of engine No. 456, in which the wheel has worked loose from the axle that there has been some neglect on the part of your officers ? It depends upon what pressure it took to press that wheel off. 6010. What is the pressure adopted for an 8-inch axle in America ? About 70 or 80 tons. 6011. Then, as a matter of fact, you were not in America when these engines ordered by the Colonial Grovernment were made ? No. 6012. Therefore you cannot say whether the wheels put on to these engines were specially made for these engines, or whether they were in stock. Do you always make them specially, or do you keep them in stock ? We never keep them in stock ; they are always made specially for the different engines. 6013. If your company had been left to themselves, do you consider that they would have sent these engines here as they are ? They would have come out rather heavier. 6014. But do you think that they would have sent these engines out if they had been left to themselves ? They would have had a waggon top boiler, and probably a steel fire-box. 6015. Tou say that you were not in America in 1890 ? No. €016. Therefore your experience as to what has been done to the roads, there is the result of reading ? Tes. 6017. Do you consider it safe to run these heavy engines on a 75-lb. iron rail with the sleepers placed 3 feet apart ? Tes ; I thing it is quite safe. 6018. Is there any road in America laid with 75-lb. iron rails — any road over which these heavy engines are running every day ? I do not know. 6019. This screw reversing-gear was put on specially at the instructions of the Commissioners ? Tes. 6020. And would not have been put on but for them ? No. 6021. And the brake-gear — was the brake-gear used in America ? Tes. 6022. Can you give us the difference in the weight between the Baltimore and Ohio engine, and the engines that we have ? I only know the weight of these engines from what I have heard here, and I have given you the weight of the Baltimore and Ohio engines, as published in the Railroad Gazette. 6023. Mr. I'ehon.] Speaking about the weight of engines, Mr. Rhodes, I will ask you have you seen the process of weighing in the Eveleigh yard ? Tes. 6024. And do you consider that you can get the most perfect weight by that means, or by adopting a weighbridge ? I think the weighbridge is the more correct of the two. I have known engines weighed on the steel yards to weigh one weight in one portion of the road, and another weight another portion of the road. 6025. Then you consider that we cannot place exact reliance upon the weights we have taken, and the results we have published ? No ; riot until they have been tested on a weighbridge. 6026. I ask that question, because the Commissioners contemplate getting a weigh-bridge, m order to be able to obtain accurate weights. Tou were asked about the weight of rail in the St. Clare tunnel. Let me ask you this— are you aware of the weight of engines running on the Victorian railways ? No. 6027. Have you seen them ? I have seen them. 6028. They are all light engines, comparatively speaking. , , j 6029. Are you aware that they have 100-lb. steel rails on the viaduct between the bpencer-street and i'linders-street railway stations for these light engines to run on ? I have heard something of the sort. 6—2 A ^^^^- ^°^ EAIDWEN' LOCOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. W Rh" a 6p30. There I suppose it would simply be in order to do away with the difficulty of much fettling on the 1^^^^^' viaduct ; in other words, to get the longest life out of the rails, and it would have nothing at all to do 12Mayl892 ^^*^ *^® weight of the engine ? No. ^' ■ 6031. And that, I presume, would be the reason for the heavy rails in the St. Clare tunnel ? Very likely. 6032. President.'] Tou say it is a question of the weight of the engine, but that it is a question of the durability of the rails ? Tes. 6033. Mr. Fehon.'] "What is the weight of the rails on the elevated railway in New Tork? The Mana- hattan has a very heavy rail, but I do not know what is the weight of the others. 6034. "What is the weight of the engines upon those roads ? They are very light, not much heavier than the" motors. 6035. And what is the weight of the rail ? I do not know exactly, but it is between 80 and 1001b. 6036. At all events, is it a very heavy rail for a very light engine ? Tes. 6037. Dr. Williains was out here for a long period some years ago. Are you aware whether he made himself familiar with the railways of Australia, their construction, and their requirements? Tes; he went into that matter very fully. 6038. And you think that Dr. Williams' opinion would be very valuable with regard to the suitability of a particular engine for a particular road ? Very reliable, indeed. 6039. Are you aware that the railway Commissioners of New South "Wales iave adopted an 80-lb. steel rail as their standard rail ? Tes ; I have heard so. 6040. Tou have been erecting engines, I believe, the whole time you have been away from America ? Tes. 6041. "Where have you been since you left San Francisco ? I left Vancouver for Japan, and erected engines in different parts of that country. Then I came to Australia to put up some motors in Victoria, and then I went over to New Zealand and Tasmania, and put up some engines there. 6042. At all events, that is your particular business — going about the different countries erecting engines for the Baldwin Company ? Tes. 6043. Professor Warren.'] I was going to suggest that we adjourn until Saturday afternoon. I find Mr. Brown cannot come to-morrow afternoon. Saturday, however, will suit me very well, and Mr. Ehodes is too important a witness to take up the tail end of a sitting in this way. I want to ask him several questions, and I do not see how I can possibly do so to-night. "Will Saturday afternoon suit you, Mr. Pehon ? 6044. Mr. FeJion.] "Well, I am quite in your hands. 6045. President.] "Would it not be possible to continue to-morrow ? 6046. Mr. Brown.] Tes ; that would be better, and I will try to be present. Frank Dwyer re-called : — Mr.P.Dwyer. 6047. President.] Tou have just handed a letter in,. I believe you want to correct something that you <'^^■^^-^~^ said in your evidence. Tou stated in your evidence that you had only had fifteen months of permanent- 12 May, 1892. yf^j -^vork. I believe you wish to correct that statement now by saying that what you meant was that you had only had fifteen months' experience of contracts for the Commissioners, but that you have had fifteen years' experience of permanent way work as a ganger ? Tes ; I meant to say that I had had fifteen years' experience of permanent way work instead of fifteen months. FRIDAY, 13 MAY, 1892. [The Commission met at 2 o^cloch in the Board-room, Oolonial Secretary's Office.] ^xzssni: — E. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.O., President. Peofessoe "WAEEEN, M.I.C.E., | ALEXANDER BEOWN, Esq., J.P. "William Ehodes, recalled : — Mr. 6048. Professor JFarren.] I wish to ask you some questions, Mr. Ehodes, in the first place with regard W. Rhodes, to the matter of axles. The Baldwin Company, I understand, had the axles for the engines imported -to /^^-'•^^^ this Colony made by some other firm ; is that the usual course adopted ? Tes ; as a general rule. 13 May, 1892. 6049. However, in this case they did do so ? Tes ; so far as I know. 6050. It is usual then, in America, for locomotive builders not to make their own axles ? It is optional with the builders, but as a general rule they buy them from the manufacturer who makes the supply of axles a speciality. 6051. Is that why you do not specify any tests for these axles ? Well, no ; I do not think the question ever came up. 6052. Is it usual in America to specify tests for axles ? No. 6053. Testerday you said that you did not consider that the test of one axle was necessarily an indication of what the others might be ? I referred more particularly to the drop test. 6054. "Well, taking the drop test, the tension test, and ductility test, why should not they be an indica- tion of what the others would be like if manufactured in the same manner ? Well, you often get one good or bad axle among the lot. 6055. Would that remark apply equally to steel as well as iron axles ? Perhaps not. 6056. Do you consider, then, that in the case of steel axles you would be more likely to get uniformity ? Tes ; I think there would, more probably, be uniformity. 6057. It is a moot point, then ; you state in your specifications pretty thoroughly the tests to be applied for boiler plates. Well, with regard to the tests for boiler plates, would you say that what would apply with regard to them would apply pretty much to a:^les ? Tes ; but it is not the custom in America to test axles. In testing boiler plates they are sent with a test piece in each case which you cut off. There are a certain number for each boiler, and these pieces, when tested, are taken to indicate the condition of the remainder. 6058. BAIBWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQITIEX COMMISSIOK — MINrTES OF ETIDENCE. 187 6058. Then I understand that you trusted the axle manufacturers to supply good axles, and this, you ^^ TDelieved, they did ? We have admitted that the axles are not as sound as they ought to be. >.^^^v.^^' 6059. And you have replaced them with steel axles ? Tes. J3 jj^^ jggg 6060. Did it not occur to you that by supplying bad axles you subjected the travelling public to some " amount of risk and danger ? Tes ; that would be so ; but these things will occur even with steel axles. 6061. Professor Warren.'] Of course, we know that it has been unintentional? I have known steel axles to break in the same way. 6062. Have you ever known four axles to break as quickly as these, so soon after the engines have com- menced to be run ? I have known three steel driving axles to break out of a number of engines that had been supplied. 6063. What number ? Out of perhaps twenty-five new engines four, before they had been running for three months. 6064. Well, here we have four driving axles breaking in about the same time ? Three I think were truck axles. 6065. Tes, they were bogie truck axles, and one was a tender axle ? Tes, it twisted off the tender. 6066. The Commissioners, it appears, trusted to the Baldwin Company to supply good axles, and the Baldwin Company trusted to the manufacturers who supplied them with axles which had been satisfactory in the past, and the result was that they were delivered here in a defective condition, that is to say the locomotives were defective with regard to their axles ? 6067. Scrap axles can only be inspected from the surface, and we made those inspections both a t the works and here before the engines went into service. 6068. They looked clean ? Tes, they looked clean and there was nothing to indicate that the axles would give trouble. .6069. But surely great carelessness must have been shown to cause such defects as were- shown by these axles breaking ? The great trouble was their running hot. 6070. But do you not think that the reason they broke was the bad material of which they were made ? I believe the direct cause was the over heating. 6071. Well then what have you to say about the result of the drop test ? The drop test with scrap iron is not thought to be very conclusive. 6072. "Well what about the tension test ? That is more conclusive certainly. 6073. Tou have seen the tension test ? I believe I have, but I do not remember what it was, something about 20 tons, as far as I can remember. 6074. The tensile strength I mean, I will read them to you-;- strain in tons, per square inch. Contraction of area, P.O. Elongation p.c. A 22-07 19-36 21-04 12-9 2-5 31-6 11 B 4 C 13 So that you will see from this that the ductility is exceedingly low, and the tensile strength is also low. Looking down a list of subsequent tests I see that there is one where the strain is marked 16'6 per square inch, and the elongation 4 p.c. Surely you would not think that was iron fit to be put even into a bridge or the commonest girder work — you were disappointed in these axles I suppose ? 6075. Mr. Fehon.'] The proof is, that now they have steel axles they are not giving any trouble at all. 6076. Professor Warren.'] That is not all Mr. Pehon, the question arises whether these engines were supplied in a defective condition, and were allowed to run on the railways until the axles broke, and not till then was it discovered that the axles were unsuitable ; — the Baldwin firm, are I take it, responsible for that — do you admit, Mr. Rhodes, that the engines as delivered to the Commissioners were defective ? Well, the axles were not of as good a quality as we should have liked, otherwise the engines have been aU right. 6077. What about the reversing-gear ? Tes ; there was a fulcrum-pin broken on the reversing-gear, but that is not of very much importance. 6078. What do you say ? I say that it does not amount to much. 6079. I do not think I need say anything more about the axles except this — do you consider steel axles better than iron ? Tes ; if you make the best quality of steel from makers of known repute. 6080. They are a very good axle, and you think probably better than iron ? Tes ; but if you get a poor quahty of steel they are worse than iron. -6081. Should not an axle, whether made of iron or steel, be of the very best material that can be pro- cured ? Tes ; and the people who make these axles try to procure the best material, but they do not always succeed. 6082. So you substituted steel for iron axles in the Baldwin engines after their arrival here, and supplied Otis steel, I believe ? Tes. 6083. And Otis steel corresponds in America with Vickers' steel in England ? ^ Tes. 6084. So that now no danger may be anticipated with regard to the axles ? JNo. _ 6085. An axle might break, in the same sense as a Vickers' steel axle might break, but that would be a rare occurrence ? Everything has been done that we could do to make the engines reliable. 6086. With regard to the weight of rails, I am not clear upon what you said yesterday ;— could you tell the Commission where the Baltimore and Ohio engines run to ; I should like to be quite certain upon what sections of the line they travel ? They run on the Piedmont section. 6087. Do they go from ' Philadelphia ? No; on the Piedmont section, over the mountains. They are working on that section of the line on account of the heavy grades that are in it, in a similar way to the engines on the Blue Mountains. 6088. Are they not used anywhere else on the Baltimore and Ohio lines ? They were built for that par- ticular section. 6089. But would they be used for other sections of the lines on heavy grades ? Tes. 6090. Do you know how far these engines— I mean the Baltimore and Ohio type— are used in America ? They are used for that section ; they were built for it and are used for it. 6091. -'■"'^ BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IKQUIET COMMISSIOK — MIKTJTES Or ETIDEKCE. W Rhod ^^^^' '^^® ten-wheel 'Nevf York, Lake Erie, and Western Eailroad Company have similar engines, have they not ? Tes ; that is a. heavy engine. ^/T^""^ 6092. It is nearly as heavy as the Baltimore and Ohio engine? Yes. Id. May, 189-. ggos. What weight of rail would the New York, Lake Erie, and Western Uailroad engine run upon— for it is practically the same as the Baltimore and Ohio engine— it has 100,000 lb. on the driving wheel? Yes, I know the engine perfectly well, but I can only give you the information from Phor's Manual. In Phor's Manual for 1891 it is stated :—" New York, Lake Erie, and Western Eailroad steel 56 to 65 lb. rail." Here is also a paper from the American Society of Civil Engineers, 1888^ in which they give the weight of the rails on many of the roads in America, and the weight per axle. New York, Lake Erie, and Western Eailway 63, 67, and 74 lb. rails, eight-wheeled engine, 115,000 lb. ; total weight, 78,000 lb. on the four drivers, that is equal to 17 tons on the axle. 6094. Professor Warren.'] I suppose you would call that an express engine ; — if you were describing it would you call it a ten-wheel engine? Yes. 6095. You would count both sides? Yes, in America we generally talk of that number. 6096. So that you would have 17 tons on the axle, and that would run over a 63 Ib.-rail ? Yes ; we give the weight of the rails 63, 67, and 74 lb.— then there is the Now York, New Haven and Hartford Railway, they have rails up to 74 lb. 6097. Now I will read you an extract from a paper included in the " Transactions of the American Society of Civil Engineers," dated December, 1S91. .It is on longitudinals versus cross-ties for railway tracks, and is by E. E. Eussel-Tratman. In this paper it is stated that — The single track of the St. Clair Tunnel at Port Huron, Mich., connecting the Grand Trunk Kailway and the Chicago and Grand Trunk Eailway, is laid with rails of the Saurtbers pattern, weighing 100 lb. per yard; the Boston and Albany. Kailroad has adopted a 95 lb. rail. The Manhatten Eailroad (New York) and the Chicago and South Side Rapid Transit Eailroad (both elerated railways) are using 90 lb. rails. Now we are coming lo something interesting, — The Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad is la,ying 85-lb. rail upon its Philadelphia and Baltimore Division, the Great Northern Eailway has laid 80 lb. rails on the heavy grades of the Pacific extension of the St. Paul', Minneapolis, and Manitoba Eailway, and the New York, Lake Erie, and "Western Eailroad, and the Lehigh Valley EaiL oad have adopted 80 lb. rail sections. It may be noted also that the Government of South Australia lias adopted an 80 lb. Haoge or the rail for use on the main lines of its railways. 6098. Witness.] You should understand that the Philadelphia and Baltimore Division is' similar to the line running from here to Newcastle, and the main road is similar to the line running from here to Bathurst — so that you will see they are both distinct lines. 6099. Professor Warren.'] They say that they are laying an 85-lb. rail — they do not say it is the only line. 6100. Mr. Brown.] I understood the witness to say that at a time he quotes i'rom this manual there were engines of a similar character to these running over this line. 61ul. Professor Warren.] But the practice is altering, and they are now taking the heavier lines. 6102. Witness.] The speeds have been increased immensely, and all the lines which put in the heavy rails have greatly increased their speed. On the Baltimore and Ohio line — between Baltimore and Philadelphia — they run an engine with 17 tons on the driving-axle at a rate of 00 miles an hour. 6103. Professor IWarren.] And that is why they put in an 85-lb. rail, is it not ? Yes ; that would be a high consideration, taking into account the great speed of the train. 6104. We have the New York, Lake Erie, and Western Line and the New Haven and Hartford Line — they have adopted an 80-lb. rail and I understand from you that the engine on the former line is almost similar to the Baltimore and Ohio engine ? Yes ; that has been running since the j'ear 1S89. 6103. Well, tliey, at least, think that an SO-lb. rail is necessary, becaui-e thev have adopted that as a standard section ? Thoy approve of a heavier rail, liut, at the same time, they may have heavier engines for them ; they have heavier enjzines. 6100. A'7hat is the heaviest engine that run^ on the 80-lb. rail on the N. Y.L.E.W. line ? Well, they had engines in 1SS8 with 17 tons on the axle. 6107. So that you consider that this rail was put down in order to accominodate heavier engines and not for the Baldwin engine ? Also on account of the speed. That must not be lost sight of. 6108. And not for the engine that we are dealing with ? No, sir ; and it was also to meet the necessity of an increa,?ed rate of speed. The N.Y.L.E.W. Railway is a road which runs into Jersey City, and carries a very quick traffic, and speed is of great importance to it. 6109. Here is the paper referred to yesterday ; I think it should be made clear that the Baltimore and Philadelphia section is not the one on which this engine travelled, and that that company have engines on their line with 17 tons on the driving-axle running at 60 miles an hour ? Yes. 6110. Well, I have nothing more to say about that matter beyond this ; — are .you thoroughly satisfied, from your experience as an engineer, which has been considerable — ten and a half years on the Penn- sylvanian Eailway and twelve years with the Baldwin Company, that with a 71-lb. "steel rail or a 75-lk iron rail, and with sleepers 2 ft. 8 in. apart, centre to centre, and 20 in, in the joints — that is, 10 in, on either side — which is the standard practice in Is'ew South Wales, the permanent way is safe for these engines ? That has always been my opinion since I was here last time — 1885 or 1886, I wrote a letter to the then Commissioner proposing the purchase of an engine with 15 or 16 tons on the driving-wheel, 6111. We have had evidence and calculations placed before us to determine what is a safe load on the driving-wheel for a given section of the rail ; — now what is your opinion and your experience in these matters of the value of such investigations as applied to a rail? 'You must understand that I am not in the Permanent Way Department, and never have been, 6112. But you know about rails and their capacities ? I know what wo carry on rails, 6iLl3. You know what a rail has to do, and you know exactly the conditions which have to be complied with ? Well, we do not hesitate to carry 16 tons on the driving-wheel on a 65 or 70 lb, rail. 6114" You do not know I suppose whether it is usual in America to decide these matters by methods such as we have had explained to us ? Well, I have never heard of it, 6115. The Americans calculate a great deal more than the English engineers do with regard to bridges, but I should like to know would they think it necessary to calculate a rail out in the way we have been. told ? Well, I have never heard of such a thing being done, 6116. President.] You mean as a fixed beam ? 6117. Professor Warren.] Yes, as a continuous girder. (To Witness) : You say you have never heard of it being done ? No, I have not, 6118. BAIiDWIK liOCOMOTITES HTQriET CO^MISSIOK — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 189 6118. You hare had some experience with regard to the weight of rails ? Tes, on the Philadelphia and Mr. iBeading line they have a 68 to 70 lb. rail. Their road runs past our doors, and we have built their engines, ^- Khod^. 6149. I suppose the writer in the Oazefte is responsible for under estimating the power, he puts it at 1,300, whereas if you use the formula you get 1,936, he simply takes it on the grade resitance, so that it must be something more than that ? In indicating an engine is more for scientific purposes. •6150. But it is the measurement of the horse-power developed in the cylinder ? The tractive force of the engine is what we test it for practically. 6151. 190 BAIDWDT LOCOMOTITES INQITIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIBENCE. ^r. 6151. If the engine develops the necessary horse-power or if it should fail to do so— and the load hauled W. Rhodes, indicated a certain horse-power we should take it in making our test? The test of an engine is the 1 VM^irlRQ') ^°^^ hauled on a certain grade and at a certain speed. ^' "'* • 6152. In a letter to the Eailway Commissioners from Messrs. Towns & Co., dated the 15th December, '90, it states that the load is about 214 tons on the 17-mile grade, here is what it says.—" Have never had maximum load weight taken up 17-mile grade by 1,300 class engine." This 1,300 refers to the horse- power. " It is about 240 net tons at schedule speed of 22 miles per hour, exclusive of weight of engine and tender. The 240 tons of 200 lb. are equal to 214 tons of 2,240 lb. There is much curvature on the 117-foot grade, and we are informed that in some places the actual grade considerably exceeds 117 feet per mile. The latter is the theoretical grade as shown by the profiles. The B. and 0. locomotives have a total heating surface of 1,945 square feet, whilst the heating surface of the proposed locomotives, as per specification No. 5,231, is 1,937 square feet. Trom these data you can readily judge as to the power and speed of the new engines." Now this clearly implies that the engines can do more than the 214 tons up the 117-ft. grade at 22 miles per hour, because it says that there are sometimes more than that, that the actual grade in some places considerably exceeds the 117, and that there are some sharp curves on it, so that merely taking that would be making the horse-power a little smaller than it is ? I do not follow you exactly. 6153. What 1 say is this we have 214 tons hauled up a 117-ft. grade at 22 miles an hour and that grade is 17 miles long so that there is no doubt about the horse-power that would have to be developed ? It would be a heavy pull. 6154. So that taking these facts into consideration we can scarcely go wrong in assuming that the B. and O. engine did this work ? I suppose they did it. 6155. And we could express this work in horse-power ? Tes. 6156. We have so many tons hauled up a long grade and we cannot be put off by rushing it — so that this is a really good basis for the calculation of horse-power ? Tes. 6157. I do not see how there could be any mistake in that, that is what we propose to do, and it is just as well that you should understand this before going back to America so that you may be satisfied that we have tried to get our results as accurately as possible. You have already stated that the engines supplied to the G-overnment are less powerful engines than the B. and O. engines by the weight of the driving-wheels, so that I must reduce this horse-power by the weight on the driver ; taking the B. and 0. engine as actually working on the grade and using the figures sent to the Eailway Commissioners by the Baldwin Co. and applying Searle's formula for a speed- of 22 miles an hour the horse-power I get is 1,192 and not 1,300, that is what I make out to be the horse-power of the Baldwin engines in accordance with the correspondence of the company, so that the weight on the B. and O. engines being 45'5 tons and on the New South "Wales Baldwin engine 43"5 tons the work performed by the latter engine will be reduced on account of the decreased weight on the driving-wheel, and will therefore be 1,139 as against 1,192, there is, I believe, some question as to whether the engine is as heavy as it is represented to be by the Baldwin Company, the weight here taken on the steelyards varied from that on the weighbridge taken in America ? Tes, we make the engines lighter than you do. 6158. Mr. Fehon.] We find steelyards very unreliable. 6159. Witness.] Tes, I have known steelyards to give a wrong weight. 6160. Professor Warren.'] But what is the weight you make it in America. I want to make your engines do exactly what has been represented, and I understand it to be a weight of 43i- tons with regard to the New South Wales engines, and 45 tons with regard to B. and O. engines. Could you give me now the corresponding weight for our engines ? There is a total weight on the coupled wheel, but I have not got it with me. 6161. Mr. FeJion.] We have cabled to America to get the weight from the Baldwin Company of the engine, they always take the weight before they send out the engines. 6162. Professor Warren.] I make it 97,900 lb. on the New South Wales engine, I have taken it as 2 tons less than the B. andO., and if it is less than that we shall reduce the horse-power correspondingly. I want now to refer you to the letters sent by the Eailway Commissioners by your firm, showing that they must have considered the matter pretty much in the way I have done. The first letter was sent by the Secretary for Eailways, Mr. M'Laughlan. It is said that it is proposed to haul, with this engine, trains weighing 152 gross tons (340,500 lb.) up long grades of 130 feet per mile. That this would be the usual train, and it was expected to be hauled up this grade at about 22 miles per hour. Those were the usual gradients. Occasionally the train would have an occasional car, making the load, without engine and tender, 178 tons, or 394,240 lb. These loads include a full complement of passengers, mail, and baggage. The cars are all on trucks or bogies. " The regular load up the 176 feet grades would be 120 gross tons (269,000 lb.) without engine or tender. These grades are free from very sharp curves, and, therefore, in practice a greater proportionate load can be hauled than on the 130 feet grades. It is therefore expected that occasionally an extra car could be hauled, making the total weight of the train 144 gross tons (322,500 lb.) without engine or tender." Tou would consider that the engines would do this work? I do not know whether they will or not. 6163. Well, we shall know on Sunday. These are the actual loads and gradients the engine will be tested with. 6164. Mr. Fehon.] Was not that modified afterwards ? 6165. Professor Warren.] No ; it is emphasised, if it does not do this work then the Baldwin Company is, I take it, responsible. 6166. Mr. Fehon.] Do they not say that they do not guarantee the speed ? 6167. Professor Warren.] They say that they could do a great deal more. These are the words: "We have carefully considered the conditions of service for which these locomotives are intended, viz., to haul 150 to 176 gross tons of cars and load at a speed of 22 miles per hour up long grades of 130 feet per mile, combined with severe curvature, and to haul up grades of 176 feet per mile, with easier curvature, loads of 120 to 144 gross tons. We note that the sharpest curves are of 528 feet radius, but it is not stated that this is the radius of the curves in combination with the 130-foot grade. Our calculations indicate that the engines will have sufiicient tractive force to haul these loads, but we prefer not to make a definite guarantee of the speed, as it is more or less dependent upon conditions of which we are not fully informed, such as the quality of the coal, the wheel have of the rolling-stock, coadition of track, &c." Following BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ITIDENCE. 191 Following on that it says : — " In order to compare the stipulated performance with what the B. and 0. Mr. engines are actually performing in daily service, we telegraphed to the G-eneral Superintendent of Motive ^- ^^°^^s. Power of that Company, inquiring as to. the latter. The telegram in reply then goes on bo say that the i^r^T'^'r^t, B. and 0. engine had hauled a load of 214 tons on a 117-foot grade, at a speed of 22 miles an hour ; so *^' that they clearly implied -that these engines could also do that ; they infer that there is a good prospect of the engines doing this work, so I presume, Mr. Ehodes, that if good coal is supplied you would expect them to do that? Well, they would come close to it, but I should not consider that a guarantee. 6168. JSfot in the sense in which you would use the term, but you would regard it as a moral obligation. 6169. It is a fair anticipation. Tou would anticipate that they would do that. I will now read what the Commissioners say. They wrote the following letter, which, I think, is the most important letter in the correspondence, showing that they clearly understood the matter. With reference to the twelve express passeuger engines, ordered in September last, kindly note these should be numbered from 446 to 457 in plain block letters, 7 inches high, in gold, on the sides of the cab, on the front buffer beam, And the back of the tender tank. I think it well to inform you that our 12° curves on which these engines will work are on 160-foot grades, and that the worst curves on the 130-foot grades are about 7°. All our passenger rolling stock is carried on trucks, chiefly four-wheel, with about 5" 6" wheel base. All the axle-boxes are made for oil ; all the wheels under the roUing stock are 36" diameter, on tread and steel tyres. We calculate that to take a train up the 130-foot grades at 22 miles an hour will require about 50 indicated horse- power less than is wanted by the Baltimore and Ohio engine. That is, I presume, because the weight on the cylinders is less ? I have calculated it, and I make just that difference. During its maximum work, and, as in our weight for the train (176 tons gross, exclusive of engine and tender) we include an ample allowance for the weight of passenger and baggage, we anticipate that the engine will be fully equal to this performance. Erom this it will be seen that the Commissioners anticipate that the engine will draw 176 tons at a speed of 22 miles an hour up a grade of 130 feet per mile. I wish you to see that they were justified in doing so from what was said in your letter of the previous date, (15 December, 1890)? Tes, I see what you mean. 6170. Do you not think that the engines clearly ought to do that work ? There are several other letters which all show that the Commissioners follow you, except that one ; that is the only one in which a slight doubt is thrown on the speed. Tou have a long account of the performance of your engines on this grade, and you are morally responsible, I think, for the consequences, if it is not found practicable with them ? It is a desirable thing to accomplish that, I think both parties consider that to be so. 6171. Now, I will ask you if in using Searle's Formula, I should make the resistance either too big or too small, and suppose I should ' calculate the performance of the B. and 0. engine from the same formula and in the same way, the mistake I may make, which would apply in both cases, would not influence the ratio of the results ? Tes, I think that would be so. 6172. If for example, I should say 20 tons instead of 15, I should have all high throughout ? Tes. • 6173. We shall make out these calculations using Searle's Formula, and take out the areas on the in- dicator diagram, and record the whole thing in the report, and thus see whether the engines actually do the work they were expected to do, and now that we have told you exactly what we intend to do, I should like to know if there is anything you would like to have done in addition to what I have indicated or whether there is anything you would like to criticise, as I am anxious your firm should be satisfied with the way we propose to carry out these tests ? All bhese tests depend on the quality of the coal — how the engine is steaming and on the practical working of the engine, if any of these things go wrong, the consequence will be a disappointing result. 6171. (To Mr. Fehon).] I suppose you have got the best coal you can. 6175. Mr. Fehon.'] They are going to take a little Newcastle coal. 6176. Professor Warren.] I do not care what kind you get, but I wish it to be good. Whatever results we get in this trial you will not get as good under ordinary circumstances, of course. 6177. Witness.] They stipulate in the correspondence that it should be good coal. 6178. Professor Warren.] If we use the best coal we shall be testing them fairly. 6179. Mr. Fehon.] We shall get Newcastle coal. 6180. Professor Warren.] If we take the best coal we can Newcastle coal, do you consider that will be fair ? Tes, if the steam-pressure is kept up. 6181. We shall record the pressure every few minutes ? Anything may affect your boiler-pressure. If the steam-pressure were not kept up I should think it unsatisfactory. 6182. I suppose you will accompany us on the trip yourself ? I am afraid I cannot. 6183. I wish you could ; I desire to treat the matter as fairly as possible, and it is a matter Of accuracy no matter how things go ? I do not think that I could be of any assistance at all. 6184. I should like to see you there just to be sure that you are satisfied. I have nothing more to say, Mr. Ehodes, thank you. 6185. Mr. Brown.] I have only one question to ask you, certain alteration, and amendments were made in the specifications supplied by the Baldwin Company— These amendments were made by a committee of gentlemen who were connected with the Government Eailways ; now I want to know did these alter- ations and amendments interfere with the efficiency and speed of the engines you proposed to supply, according to the pattern of the engines used by the B. &. 0. Company? It reduced the power of the engine somewhat. 6186. As a matter of fact, these amendments did then interfere with the speed and power and tractive force ; from your standpoint, I understand you would have recommended the Q-overnment to take a B. and 0. engine rather than these. Were the Eailway Commissioners or their officers doing right in making these alterations to suit the B. and 0. engines to our lines ? Quite right, if they were satisfied with obtaining a little less work from them. . n 6187. Supposing that they did a little less work, are you quite sure that these changes did not interfere with the character and efficiency of the engines, may they not on the other hand have made them, so far as you are concerned, more suitable for the railways here ? Tes. 6188. Then inasmuch, as they did not decide on taking a B. and 0. engine, your people refused to guarantee them,~was that the reason ? Tes ; very much. 6189. 192 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTTIBT COMiHSSION— MIITUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr 6189. That is tlie Baldwin .Company did not know what would be the effect of the changes in the speci- _ A - ' fications they supplied, and therefore would not guarantee the speed of the engines ? Yes. 13M^yl892 ®^^°- ^°^ ^° ^°* *^"* ^'^^ *^^^® alterations made any material difference, but m fact made them mor& ^' ■ suitable and lighter for the work ? Yes. 6191. And you consider that these engines are suitable in every respect for the work of ourrailways ? I think they are entirely suitable in every respect for the railways of New 8outh Wales. 6192. Mr. Hoyle.'] Is it not a fact that on nearly all the railways in America they are mcreasmg the weight of their rails ? On the Eastern roads they are increasing them coosiderably. 6193. I see in the Engineering News, of lat October, 1891, it is said, " That m all new works not less than sixteen ties must be placed in each 30 feet, 67-lb. rails placed evenly"— now what would that be ? I suppose it would be about 1 ft. 11 in. apart. Eeferring to this matter again on February 20th, 1892, the same paper says, " An interesting and highly important fact is readily discernable in other tables yet to come. In the Northern United States, New York, Great Britain, and Germany, derailments are becoming of trivial importance as compared with collisions. In the south, with its few trains and most poor track, it is the other way. The west is betwixt and between. The moral deserves to be written in letters of gold over every operating officer's desk ' when track is once brought up to the east of Chicago, British, and German standards, derailments of serious moment tend to become evanescent.' " So that you see there is a statement that where in America they have not brought their rails to the English, German, and Chicago standard these derailments have been frequent; and this shows that the rails are too light for the work they have been doing. There is another reference in another copy of the Engineering News, of February 22nd, 1892, it says, '■ Erom Jersey City to Bound Brook the central railroad of New Jersey has- four tracks, ballasted with broken stone, the two middle tracks have heavy rails spliced by angle-bars 30 inches long with six bolts," and again, " The new standard tracks and the standard track sighs of the Baltimore and Ohio railroad have been described and illustrated in Engineering News, July 18th, October 31st, and November 7tb, 1891. The cuts and fills ard of a loose gravelly character, and are in place* badly washed and worn by the rain, necessitating frequent work in repairs" — now this it the very thing that I mentioned yesterday ; it shows that the newer and heavier road is being adopted throughout America, and we find that "the American railways are increasing their rails to the highest standard. Can you give us any reason, Mr. Rhodes, for this being so, excepting for the great power they are running on the line at the present time ; — is there any reason beyond the one that the original rolling stock is too heavy ? That ia the Philadelphian section of the Baltimore and Ohio line. As I have stated before, they run their trains at the rate of 60 miles an hour with a weight of over 17 tons on the driving-axle, or, ia other words, 6 tons 16 cwt. on the driving-wheel. 6194. On the Jersey City and Bound Brook line the paper says ;— is that the same place? That ia another section, between Philadelphia and New York. They run 19^ tons on their driving-axles there. 6195. Taking into consideration the fact that they use 67-lb. rails, and also that the sleepers are only 1 ft. Hi in. apart, do you think that our lines, with the sleepers 3 ft. apart and 75-lb. iron rails, are safe ? You must also look at the engines. The engine that runs over the lines in question are 19 tons 14 cwt. on the driving-wheel, and they travel at the rate of 60 miles an hour on a 76-lb. rail. 6196. Steel rail? Yes. 6197. What do you say is the weight on the driver ? 19 tons 14 dwt. 6198. Mr. Brown.'] Between the 7l-lb. steel rail and the 75-lb. iron rail there is not pinch practical diffei'ence ; for practical purposes they are much the same. 6199. Mr. Fehon.] Both being sound you consider they are equally strong. 6200. Mr. Brown.] You say that steel is as cheap as iron. 6201. .Mr. Fehon.] You can get steel rails as cheap as you can get iron rails. 6202. Mr. Brown.] They will last much longer. 6203. President.] And there is no differe/ice except in durability ? 6204. Mr. Eehon.] We should give a preference of steel over iron. 6205. President.] Because it is stronger ? 6206. Mr. Fehon.] Yes ; but considering that iron rails are perfectly sound, we believe that it is the equivalent of a lighter steel rail. 6207. Professor Warren.] Iron rails may be destroyed in detail, but steel is more homogenous. 6208. Mr. Fehon.'] Steel is subject to the same process of destruction, but perhaps to a less extent than iron. 6209. Professor JVarren.] Yes ; but experiments show that it has a greater vibrating strength — that is, a greater strength against repetitions of load. In other words, fatigue. 6210. Mr. Fehon.] I have seen some specimens of steel rails in Bessemer steel which, have gone very similar to iron after being a little worn. 6211. (To Witness).] Do you consider that the Eailway Commissioners of New South Wales in having ' adopted an 80-lb. steel rail as their standard rail are at all behind the rest of the world ? No. 6212. Mr. Hoyle.] Certainly not. They have done quite right. 6213. Mr. Fehon (to Witness).] Speaking of American ties, can you tell us' the size of the American tie as compared with the sleepers used in this country ? The cross ties that are used in America are from the woods found in the immediate neighbourhood. In the West they use redwood, and in the East they use oak. 6214. And that is a comparatively soft wood compared to the wood we use in this country ? Yea. 6215. And the size of the ties are rather smaller than ours, are they not? They are about the same. 6216. Well, I remember in my days they were smaller. 6217. President.] If they are only 2 feet apart, and our sleepers are 3 feet apart, surely, considering that the rail has to be borne by them, those 2 feet apart must be better than those 3 feet apart, no matter what kind of wood the sleepers are made of? Yes ; but a good deal depends on the sleepers. Supposing that the wood should rot by reason of its inferiority in the 2-foot sleepers, that will give a bearing area of 4 feet. 6218. I quite agree with you there. Of course it must be so ; but if the wood remains good, sleepers 2 feet apart must be better than sleepers 3 feet apart. 6219. Mr. Fehon.] Yes ; some lines are laid with longitudinal sleepers. The Great Western, in England for example, is laid with longitudinal sleepers, and there, of course, they have a bearing the whole length of the road, and in consequence can use a much lighter rail. 6220. BALBWIN- lOCOlCOTITES IN^riET COMMISSIOX—MINUTES OV EVIDEKCE. jgS 6220. Mr. Brdwn.] The practice in America is to tie them much closer than here. I remember that in Mr. the case of the Hawkesbury bridge, where they sent in their own epecifications, they put the sleepers ^' J^hodes. 14 inches apart. <-»wa.^-s 6221. President.] But I understand there is another reason for that. As I understand it, in case of a ^' ^^^' ^^2- tunnel, or a bridge, or a viaduct, or in any place where you cannot relay them without inconvenience, it is customary to make the work very much stronger than in other places in the first instance. 6222. Mr. lehoni] Yes ; you usually put a heavier head on the rails ; and consequently, instead of a line lasting for three years it will probably last for nine. 6223. President (to "Witness).] Have you been on the Western Line ? Yes, sir. 6224. Do, you know the Solitary Creek Bridge? No. 6225. Do you know a creek that you cross in going to Tarana— just a little time before yeu get there ? I have crossed it. 6226. Have you noticed the permanent way over it? Yes. 6227. Do you think that the engines are too heavy for the permanent way] there ? They rode very steadily over that, and I was on the engine at the time. 6228. Mr. Fehon.] I understand from Mr. Hoyle that he has only one more witness, and that that witness will speak on the question of the strength of the road, and that his evidence will not affect what has been given by Mr. Ehodes. I have asked him that question in order to make everything clear for Mr. Ehodes to get away on Monday. As I stated before, he is leaving for San Francisco on that dav, and it will be extremely unfortunate if evidence, is called subsequently by Mr. Hoyle in refutation of any- thing he has said. 6229. President.] Very well, then you will start your evidence on Tuesday, Mr. Hoyle. Is it the wish of both of you that we should adjourn from to-day over till Tuesday ? 6230. Mr. Hoyle.] Yes ; for my part I desire it, Mr. President. 6231. President.] You are sure you do not want Mr. Ehodes again, Mr. Hoyle ? 6232. Mr. Hoyle.] Quite sure. 6233. Mr. Brown.] You have one more witness, and he is summoned for Tuesday next ? 6234. Mr. Hoyle.] Yes ; that is so. 6234^ Mr. Brown.] And after that the Eailway Commissioners will go on with their case ? Yes. TUESDAY, 17 MAT, 1892. [_Tlie Commission met in ilie Board-room, Colonial Secret tiry's Ofice, at 230 ;?.«!.] ALEXAZs'DER BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P. (Presiding). PnorEssoE WAKEEN, M.I.C.E. (i235. Mr. Hoyle.] Previous to calling the evidence of my final witness, 1 wish to state Ihat at the kst sitting of the Commission I asked to be supplied with a report of certain tests that had been made in connection with the Glen Lee Bridge. That report was promised, but up to the present time it has not been produced ; and as I wish to ask several questions relative to it, I feel that 1 am placed at a disadvan- tage by not having it before me at present. Mr. Pollitzer states to me that he wishes to correct some evidence which he gave at the previous meeting of the Commission. 6236. Mr. Brown.] I understand that you want something to be produced which you say the depart- ment promised to produce, but has not. 6237. Mr. Hoyle.] Yes, it is a report of certain tests which were made by Mr. Eoxlee, Mr. Hickson, and Mr. Deane on the Glen Lee Bridge. Mr. Eehon promised to let me have it, but up to the i^resent time it has not been produced. 6238. Mr. Brov-m.] "What have you to say, Mr. Pehon, about it? 6239. Mr. Fehon'.] It is a question how far the production of anything in connection with the Glen Lee Bridge affects the matters before the Commission. 6240. Mr. Broion.] I think we havegot past that stage. I understand that you promised to produce it. 6241. Mr. Fehon.] I may have done so inadvertently. I do not see how this inquiry will be affected by the report. I may state that an article appeared in a certain Sunday paper reflecting upon the stability of the Glen Lee Bridge, and one of the gentlemen now in the room camo before a Committee of the Department, and there made certain statements. 6242. Mr. Brown.] "W^ouldit not be better, Mr. Fehon, to give this as evidence. It goes down in the short- hand notes, but has not the same weight as evidence given upon oath. You understand the difference there is between a mere statement made in this way and a statement made upon oath, so far as this Commission is concerned ? 6243. Mr. Fehon.] Wo see no necessity for giving information which is not pertinent to this inquiry merely for the benefit of private persons sitting at this table. 6244. Mr. Brown.] Then, I understand that the objection of the Commission is that this information would be given to parties other than those who are parties to this inquiry. 6245. Mr. Hoi/le.] I believe a report of these tests will show that this bridge is not capable of carrying a Baldwin engine, and, therefore, this report will, I think, disclose something material to the inquiry before the Commission. 6246. Mr. Brown.] Part of your allegation is that these engines are unsuitable for our permanent way, and you- think that the report upon these tests will support that allegation ? (5247. Mr. Hoyle.] Yes. ' 6248. Mr. Fr-hon.] Mr. Foxlee will be put in the witness-box and he will give all the evidence that may he required about that particular bridge to the Commissioners. 6249. Mr. Brown.] Or Mr. Hoyle. 6250. Mr. FeJion.j Yes, or Mr." Hoyle, he will be present. 6251. Mr. Brown'.] "Will that satisfy you, Mr. Hoyle. If Mr. Foxlee made a report you can call for its production when he gives his evidence. 6252. Mr Hoyle.] I think it would have been better if it had been produced before. To take me on the hop like this is unfair. It gives me no time to look over the report, and I cannot ask the questions I would 6—2 B probably 19* . BAIiBWIN lOCOMOTITES INQTTIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. probably otherwise have put to my witness if I had that report in my possession. The reason why I asked for its production was that I might have it in my possession to-day. Even if it were produced now ■ it would be useless to me as I would not have an opportunity of looking at its contents and framing my questions from them. 6253. Mr. Brown.] "Well, wiU you be content with the situation as it has now developed. 6254. Mr. Moi/le.] I suppose I must be. 6255. Mr. Brown.] It is for you to say in forwarding the interests of this Commission whether it is desirable to have it produced now, or whether it would not be prudent for you to wait until Mr. Foxlee is put in the box. 6256. Mr. Hotfle.] I think it would be usele'ss to produce it now, as I should have no time in which to digest its contents. 6257. Mr. Brown.] We shall give you an opportunity during Mr. Foxlee's examination of dealing with the matter. 6258. Mr. Hoyle.] A^ery well. Mr. Pollitzer wishes to make certain corrections in the evidence he has given. 6259. Mr. Broion.] We have no objection whatever to that, so long as no new evidence is introduced. Samuel Joseph Pollitzer, recalled, said : — Mr. C260. I am desirous of making a correction in regard to some remarks made by Mr. Fehon. S.J. Pollitzer. 6261. Mr. Broivn.'] You cannot correct any remarks made by Mr. Pehon. You can only correct your /■^•'—'^^^ own evidence. 17 May, 1892. 6262. Witness.] It is with regard to a question put to me by Mr. Pehon. He asked me to tell him what weight would be required to fracture the rail broken at Tarana under the drop test. I answered his question, but I bad no right to do so. It was an absurd question, and should not have been answered, and .therefore the answer I have given I do not wisli to be considered as given in my evidence. That is the main point I wish to give as a correction. I have shown great industry in compiling my opinious, and I now desire to submit the last number of The Engineer, from which I would like to quote a certain passage. 6263. Mr. Brown.] "What is that for. Presh evidence ? 6264. Witness.] It is simply in explanation and support of my character as an engineer, which has been questioned by Mr. Pehon. 6265. Mr. Broivn.] I really do not think that is a matter at all in questitn. 6266. Witness.] I wish to read it on account of what Mr. Pehon s.iid. 6267. Mr. Brown.] Well, there is no objection to your doing so for the information of the Commission, , but it must not be considered as part of its proceedings. (To the shorthand writer) -. Do not take this as part of the procceedings. (The loitness then read an extract from a scientific journal.) 6268. Mr. Broion.] I do not think what you have been reading concerns 1;he Commission, excepting in estimating your value as an engineer. 6269. Witness.] I simply came here with that object to vindicate my position as -an engineer, on account of what had been said by Mr. Pehon. Albert Leahy, being sworn, said : — Mr. A. Leahy. 6270. I am a civil engineer, and have been resident in the Colony between seven and eight years. I am ^—^j.^^'-^ not connected with the Railway Department, but hold a position in the Roads and Bridges Department. 17 May, 1892. My position there is that of draughtsman. I am supposed to be what is called " an extra temporary hand." The chief of my department is Mr. McDonald. 6271. Mr. Hoyle.] Are you a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers ? I am not a member. Perhaps I may explain why I am not. At the time of my apprenticeship, or on its completion, some gentlemen who were connected with the institute proposed that I should become a member. I gathered from gentlemen who were seeking employment as engineers that they believed that membership in the institute was in the nature of a diploma, upon which they could trade. I thought at the time that it was not worth while becoming a member, and for the last twenty years I have continued to think so. I found that it was a very good introduction for quacks. Of course I do not mean that is so in every case. There are engineers and engineers. 6272. Have you had any experience in connection "vith railway matters ? I served my time with Mr. Charles de Bergue, who was at that time one of the leading authorities in connection with permanent ways. He has carried out work in all parts, of the world, paying special attention to permanent ways. He had patents which nearly all the G-overnment representatives m various parts of the world have made close inquiry into, and I believe that at that time his system of permanent way was considered to be one of the best that could be laid down. My association with him aiforded me such facilities in the way of introductions, that I was enabled to obtain entrance to and go round nearly all the works in England and some of those on the Continent, for the purpose of studying questions in connection with permanent way. 6273. And did you make such a study ? I did. So much so, that at the time when the Russian and Indian Governments were considering whether a 4 feet 8i inch gauge, or one smaller would be the better, I remember that. Colonel Scratchley, Captain Tyler, Mr. Bender, and many other gentlemen, including the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Sutherland, who interested themselves in this question, when I was afforded an opportunity of seeing with them a number of experiments then being carried on about London. My experience also extended to association with Mr. George England, who I believe was one of the fathers of railway works in the old country. 6274. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 195 6274. Mr. Royle.] What practical experience you had of railways was, I understand, during the period M"^- ■*■• ^'ei'iy' you were serving your time ? Tes. ^"^-'^-"s &2.1^. What position did you hold then ? I was studying as a civil engineer, up to 23 years of age. 17 May, 1892, 6276. Mr. Brown.:] What bearing have the Prince of Wales and Sir John Powler on your experience ? Well, sir, it was in this way. It was in connection with "The Little Wonder," when Mr. Fairlie was bringing forward his narrow gauge engines in England, and these gentlemei from Eussia and India were looking into this matter, and I was assisting Mr. John England in hunting up information. 6277. Tou were his assistant ? Tes ; we were carrying out experiments at New Cross. 6278. Mr. HoyleP^ Have you had much experience 'in connection with bridges ? Tes ; both on railway and road bridges. 6279. In connection with their construction ? Tes ; and in superintending their erection. ^280. Have you had also experience in the manufacture of rails, and do you know the strains to which they are subject? Tes. 6281. Both iron and steel rails? Not so much in steel rails but in iron. Steel has only come to the front in recent years, but in the manufacture of iron rails I have had a lot of experience, and I have been engaged for more than three years investigating into questions affecting iron and steel making for the purpose of rails. I was at Bolckow Vaughan's, and the Walker Ironworks, and Eosedale and I'erry Hill, at Durham, among the largest works of this kind, turning out about 600 tons of iron. I was engaged in making tests of iron and steel and also coal and fluxes and other things necessary for that particular kind of work. 6282. Mr. Brown.] I understand that you have had an opportunity of visiting all these places ? Tes ; before I came out here I had an opportunity of going through the whole of the works in Belgium, and also, if I had wanted to do so, through those of France and Germany. They would have shown me what I desired. 6283. Mr. Soyle.] Tour father was well known in connection with ironworks in England, was he not ? Well, he has been dead some fifteen or sixteen years now. 6284. Will you kindly explain to the Commission the circumstances connected with your discovery of the weak points in the Glenlee bridge? On one occasion I was going down to Picton with a view to looking for land for selection, and in passing the structure, which was near completion, it occurred to me that it looked rather weak, and I thought that on my return journey I would pay it a visit and inspect it carefully. I was not, however, able to do so ; but looking at it from the train I formed an opinion which did not please me, and I determined to pay a visit to it. I did not do so for some days, but when I did I took a few dimensions, and then discovered that the bridge had not what I thought suflicient base enough to support it in accordance with the rules adopted by engineers. 6285. Did you make any comments about the bridge to any one ? None whatever. 6286. Did you make any representations whatever about the bridge ? No ; I only spoke to a friend. In talking over the bridges on the southern line I said to him in a casual way that I had noticed the Glenlee viaduct, and that it seemed to be a little weak, but that I was not sure of it, and that I had not made any calculations, except a few figures which were altogether incomplete. 6287. Since then some tests have' been made ? Tes, I believe the Government have made some tests. 6288. Can you quote any authorities for the strength and tests of bridges? I do not quite understand you. 0289. Could you quote any authorites who would take the same view as you do about the Glenlee bridge ? I have made some calculations, but it would be difficult to tell you how I have dealt with them, without pointing out the common laws and regulations and foundation upon which I base them. G290. Mr. Brown. (To Mr. Hoyle)]. Cannot you get generally from him his views with regard to the bridge, whether it is suitable for carrying the Baldwin engines or not. 6291. Professor Warren.] I will go through these calculations with him afterwards. 6292. Mr. Brown.] He has made certain calculations, and the result of these calculations shows him something, Wliat is it. Do they show you that the result of your calculations is that the Glenlee bridge is weak ? I will give you the calculations. G293. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you know the weight of the Baldwin engines ? I think it is about 90 tons. 6294. One class weighs between 91 and 92 tons, with a weight on the driving-wheel of 15 tons 6 cwt., that is the passenger engine ; the goods engine is 97 tons, with a weight of 15 tons 9 cwt. on the driving-wheel. Now, having made your calculations with regard to the Glenlee bridge, do you consider that bridge strong enough to carry such an engine as the former travelling at the rate of 40 mUes an hour? The estimate I make my calculation upon is Class 1, No. 483. I have made my calculations upon the basis of this engine. 6295. Mr. Brown.] What is the weight on the driving-wheel ? The total weight on the driving-wheel would be equivalent to 63'6 distributed throughout, that is the weight resting the locomotive over one span of the structure. 6296. Had you not better ask him generally, Mr. Hoyle, if he can give you any evidence about the Baldwin engines and their suitability to our permanent-way. Ask him whether, assuming the weight to be what he states, his observations warrant him in saying that this bridge is safe for the Baldwin engine to pass over. 6297. Mr. Soyle.] With your experience as an engineer, do you consider the weights I have mentioned as being those of the Baldwin engines would be too great for the Glenlee bridge to carry with safety? Tes, I do, most decidedly. 6298. Now can you give us any scientific reasons why these weights are too heavy ? Tes, I can. I have asked myself two questions upon the strength of the girders to carry these locomotives, they are as follows : — " Are the beams designed and constructed so as to carry singly the greatest loads that can come upon them, and in accordance with engineering principles. 2. " Are the necessary factors of safety provided, in accordance with the Board of Trade regulations and recommendations, whicb regulations and recommendations the engineering profession has rigidly conformed to when designing structures of the class in question ?" With regard to the factor of safety, I claim that these engines should have a factor of safety, say, of ten for a live load, and five for a dead load ; that is upon the authority of tbe Board of Trade at home. In America the factor of safety is higher, but what it may be here I cannot say. I have inade several calculations about the bridge, and I have found them anything but what they ought to be ; and this might be said also with regard to other bridges in the Colony Eeference to the Bridges Com- mission isa BAI/DWIN tOOOMOTITES .IST^^IRT COMMISSION— MINUTES OF BTIDENCE. Mr. A.Xeahy.. mission would show that there is a great variation in these things. We have also to ask ourselves whether, ,iZ;~*-^„ if this structure is capable of carryin* the factor of safety of five for the dead load, at the present time, 17 May. 1892. ^^^j^ j^ ^^ capable of carrying it three years hence, for this is a permanent structure— not a temporary one. 6299. Professor Warren.'] Is it constructed of timber ? Tes; but it would stand for a considerable time, in fact until the timber is worn out. , , , „ 6300. Mr. Brown.'] Is the bridge suitable for the Baldwin engines, not three years hence, but now.'' That bridge has been erected to carry trafhc for the next two or three years. .■<.•. 3 6301. I do not say that they have not been built for five, ten, or fifteen years, but we have nothing to do with that. All that we can inquire about now is whether the Baldwin engines are suitable tor the permailent-way, as it is at present, and not as it may be years hence. 6302. Witness.^ My answer to that is, that it is not. The factor of safety that I have calculated to have been provided for this bridge is 2-18 instead of 5 in accordance with the Board of Trade regulations. 6.303. Professor FParren.] Is that for a dead load ? Yes; if for a live load it would by double that namely ten. i • i. t t. 6304. Witness.] An important question in erecting bridges is the co-efBcIent of rupture, which I have taken to be 18 cwt. which gives the modulus of rupture as 12-096 lb. 6305. Professor Warren,:] What is the timber? The timber I have estimated to be ironbark. The two beams are secured together, one on top of the other, and I cannot regard them as a compound beam. 6306. Are the beams constructed in the same manner as in the Wango Viaduct ? No. 6307. What size of bolt have they ? I think about an inch. I saw that they were not more than an inch and there was not a sufficient number of keys. 6308. Tou know what was the span of the bridge ? Twenty-one feet. 6309. Mr. Koyle^] You said you have had some experience of tests of iron and' steel, I think it is understood that these engines are not now run on the southern line, and the reason why I ask you about the Glenlee Bridge is because the exigencies of the Department may make it necessary to run these engines over that line at sonie future time. I wish to point out that we have had evidence to show that there are a number of turned rails over which these engines are repeatedly passing, and evidence has been produced to show that there has been a loss of weight of about l^- lb. per yard, due to the con- tinuous traffic upon them. The iron rails when new were 75 lb. per yard, and the sleepers are spaced at the curves from 2 ft. to 2 ft. 7 in. or 8 in., and on the straight from 2 ft. 8 in. to 3 ft. 3 in. Now, taking the weight of the engines that I have already indicated to you into consideration-^ — 6310. Mr. Pehon.]. I do not think there is any evidence about the sleepers being 3 ft. 3 in. apart on the straight. 6311. Mr. Jloyle.] I have measured them myself. 6312. Mr. Fehon.] Well, go into the box and give evidence about it. 6313. Mr. Brown.] I do not think any evidence has been given that the rails are 3 ft. 3 in. apart. ,6314<. Mr. Soi/le.] Well, 3 ft. 1 in. has been sworn to ; but taking into consideration these facts, and that the material has been worn on one side and the rail turned over, do you consider it right and safe to take engines of such a weight over them ? I should certainly sa,y not. I say it is not safe. 6315. Will you kindly examine that rail ; it is the one that was broken in the recent accident ? [Here witness examined the rail.] 6316. I would like to ask you whether, having seen the fracture in it, you consider that rail to be of good iron? Yes ; I think it is ordinarily good iron. 6317. Do you consider that that rail has been broken by a perpendicular or a Ifrteral strain ? I would like to know where the rail was broken ? 6318. It was broken just at the commencement of or a short distance beyond the commencement of a curve. Now having seen the rail and having been informed of its position at the time of the accident, do you think it was broken by a lateral or perpendicular strain ? To answer that question I would require to make a systematic examination of the rail, and that would be a matter of three or four hours. I should want to know where the curve commenced a nd where it ended, and where the breakages were, and I should also want to thoroughly examine the iron with regard to its quality. I could not form an accu- rate opinion by merely looking at the rail, that would be simply workingin the dark, but I should beiable to tell you something about it in an hour or an hour and a half. There are many matters in connection with locomotives going over a rail that should be taken into consideration, specially when the engine is running into a curve. It may be that this was part of an S curve, and there is nothing to prevent the engine being thrown from the one rail sharply against the other. 6319. It was not on a reverse curve I think, in fact I am sure it was not ? However, I could not answer that question unless there was a drawing of the curve before me. I should want to get the exact radius of the curve, &c., and with so little information before me it would be impossible for me to say exactly what caused the fracture. 6320. It has been sworn that the curve was taken at the rate of 25 miles an hour, if not a greater speed. Now taking again into consideration the weight of the engine and the weight on the driving-wheel, do you think it would be safe to take an engine of such a weight into a curve of 10 or 12 or 8 chains at a rate of 25 miles an hour ? No, not with an iron rail of 75 lb. weight and sleepers placed as you say from 2 feet 8 inches to 8 feet 2 inches apart. The sleepers at a curve should not be more than 20 inches apart from centre to centre, and here I understand they were about 3 feet apart. 6321. I wish to ask you another question, and it is relevant to the axle. Do you consider, having had some exp^terience in the manufacture of iron, that when axles are being ordered tests should be provided for them, irrespective of the repute of the firm providing them. When ordering axles, which are so vital a part of an engine, do you as an engineer, consider that tests should be specified for them with- out respect to the repute of the firm supplying them ? Most certainly. If I were ordering engines I should, irrespective of the reputation of the firm, provide for tests ; and I should also see that the men who inspected the engines during their construction were trustworthy. My reasons for doing so are these — that I find that, as a rule, foremen in large works consider it their business to get out the work as cheaply and as quickly as possible, and will pass over little defects which do not appear to be of much account to outsiders, but which, if an expert were called in to thoroughly examine the work, he would, probably, consider to be of very great importance. Take, for example, the accident which you referred to just now. It may be that the fibres of the metal were etrained, and ia the case of an axle whose fibres had BAIBWIN LOCOMOTIYES INCjriRT OOMMISSION— MINtJTBS OF ETIDENOE, fSf had been strained, it -would probably be unsafe, so that it is no use to imagine that the best firm in Mr, A. Leahy. England or America may be trusted without having some check placed upon it. Such firms are certainly S^"^^""^- not trusted by the railway companiea in England. There every railway company has a man whose duty " '^"y- 1^^^. it is to inspect the making of the engines. He watches over every job. and his position is held by the faithful performance of his duty to his employers. The best men they have are selected for this duly of inspection during the making of the locomotives in the shops of the contractors. Of course in places where the railway companies carry out their own work it is a different thing altogether. I must decidedly say that I would not order any locomotives, or axle, or any part whatever without having tests provided, and I should most decidedly specify those tests. 6322. Supposing that whilst running these engines you discovered that any of their axles broke, would you order the removal of the whole of the same class of axles from all the engines furnished with it, or would you a,llow theengines to run any longer ? Do you mean if any one of them broke ? 6323. Tes, if you discovered that any of these axles broke. You must understand that when the axles of the bogies broke they were all removed, but afterwards a tender axle broke, and the other tender ailes were permitted to remain. Now would you have allowed these tenders to run any longer without having the whole of the axles removed ? I might take that axle and test it ; but in the meantime I should look after the others. 6324. Mr. Srown.] If some of these axles have shown sufiicient defects to warrant the removal of a portion of them, would you as an engineer, knowing of these defects remove the whole of them ? Cer- tainly. 6325. Mr. Ilojjle.] Then you would stop these engines at once, until all these axles had been removed ? Certainly. 6326. Ton are aware, I presume, that sometimes when tests are made, one of a number only is tested. Thirty or forty may be brought in and one, taken out indiscriminately and tested. "Would you consider that to be a satisfactory test of the material contained in the rest ; that is taking one indiscrimi- nately would you take the rest as up to the balance of that one ? Are you supposing that certain testa must be made to the axles you are going to use ? 6327. Tes ? It would be impracticable for a man to test every axle. 6328. But we are supposing that there are thirty or forty in a heap together, and the person who comes to test them takes one indiscriminately out that heap and tries it. Would you take that to be a sufiBcient guarantee for the rest; if the one were found good, would you take it for granted that the rest were equally good ? I cannot quite follow for this reason — if these axles were made of steel and were submitted to specified tests, well and good if one axle stood it, but the day's work constitutes perhaps twenty axles. The way the work is done in manufacturing these axles is as follows : — First of all the material is selected, and every ingot is marked after being turned out of the crucible, and every process is closely watched until the metal is finally turned into an axle. If after this has been done upon testing it is foundi to be wanting, the whole of the axles which have been made of the same heat may have to be put aside, and a fresh lot made, but supposing the whole of that process has been satisfactorily ])assed through, you have the completed axle. I cannot see, why then, if you tested one by chance selection and it was not satisfactory, you could not take a second and test that, and so on. , 6329. Mr. Brown.'] Supposing there are fifty axles all ready for testing, and you take one and it answers the test, would you accept that one as a sample of the rest ? I would take one per cent., assuming that all the previous tests and inspections had been satisfactoTy. It places an engineer in a queer position when he finds one axle in fifty to be wrong. 6330. Professor Warren.']' You mean you would take 1 per cent, of the day's work ? I would take one in fifty. 6331. You would object to take a batch of axles unless produced in a certain time, dud then you would take 1 per cent. ? Yes. 6332. If the first axle selected passed the test you say that you would risk the rest ? Yes. 6333. The same test you would apply to boiler-plates and material in general, I suppose ? Yes. 6334. Mr. Soyle.] You have had no experience of our other bridges on the western line ? No ; except in the construction of the bridges here I have had no experience of them. 6335. With the 71-lb. steel T rail and the sleepers spaced as I have indicated do you consider that it would be safe, taking into consideration the bearing of the rail on the sleeper itself, and not on the chair, would you consider it to be safe to run these locomotives ? It all depends upon the speed. 6336. Taking the speed of the goods train to be 18 miles, and that of the passenger train not more than 40 miles an hour ? If the sleepers were placed 2 ft. 7 in. apart, at the most, I should say it would be fairly safe, but I would like a heavier rail, especially at the curves. 6337. Mr. Srown.] Mr. Hoyle wants to know if it is safe. 6338. Professor Warren.] It is not on the question of economy. 6339. Mr. Hoyle.] Do you think, taking into consideration all the other things I have indicated, that it would be safe to run these engines over a 71-lb. T rail ? I think it would be safe on the straight, but I am doubtful about the curves. I could tell if I had all the data before me. I think it would be perfectly safe on the straight if the sleepers were not more than 2 ft. 7 in. or 2 ft. 8 in. apart. 6340. Have you had any experience of the testing or the straining of rails ? Yes, I have seen thousands and'thousands of rails tested. 6341. Well, what do you think of the rail you have seen in this room, it has been turned twice or run on both faces, what do you think should be the test drop of a rail such as that, with a monkey of a ■ ton weight, what do you think it should stand. 6342. Professor Warren^ In foot tons. 6343. Witness.'] The test would be about 4 ft. with one ton. 6344. Do you mean the steel rail ? No, that is the 75-lb. rail. It would be about 4 ft. without fracture. 6345. Not repeated ? No, just one blow. 6346. What would it take to fracture it ? About double that. A little more than about 9. 6347. Nine- foot tons ? Yes ; I am speaking now from memory. I have not don© any testing for seven or eight years. 6848. Mr. Hoyle.] Have you ever tested rails such as these ? Yes. 0349. And from your experience that i« the test they should stand ? Yes. 6850. 1?8 . iBALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IN^QTJIEX COilMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. A. Leahy. 6350. What should be the test then that a T rail should stand, the. ordinary T rail.? Well, that depends i/r^''''!T>„ upon what we are testing for in the first place. Are you testing simply for breaking. 17 Jlay, 1892. 6351._ What should be the breaking drop test of a T rail 71 lb. steel? Well, 1 could hardly give you that from nlemory. 6352. Can you give us any rough idea ? To break the rail ? 6353. Yes ? I should say about 30 tons ; but I would not bind myself in these figures. I am speaking from memory,but I have no data to go upon. j -i -i o -c- 6354. I wish to ask you a question. Have you ever tendered for the manufacture of rails here ? Yes ; to re-roll the old rails of the Colony, about some six years ago. t, , , 6355. Professor Warren,:] But the Eskbank Company got it? Yes ; another company and the Eskbank Company. I believe I was by 6d. per ton the lowest tenderer. 6356. ilfr. ^)wo«.] Wedo not want to go into what the tender was. 6357. Mr. Soyle.] Did you ever tender for the manufacture of steel rails here ? It was my intention in laying down the plant for relaying the road, had I got the tender, to lay down a plant for steel rails. 6358. Mr. Fehon.'] How long have you been in this country ? About seven or eight years. 6359. I think you said in your evidence that you had not been in the employment of a railway company? Yes ; but I have been constructing railways all the same. 6360. What railways have you been in ? I have studied on the London, Chatham, and Dover Line. 6361. I did not ask you what companies you have studied with, but in what companies you had been employed? I have been employed on the London, Chatham, and Dover. 6362. What did you do there? I was employed in laying down about a quarter of a mile of patent permanent-way. 6363. Anywhere else ? 1 was engaged in Central America, on the Laguira and Carracas Eailway. 6364. What were you doing there ? I was acting as assistant engineer, and had the inspection of the works. 6365. Have you had any railway experience in this country ? "No ; not beyond constructing railway bridges. 6366. What railway bridges have you constructed in 'this country ? I referred to the iron bridges. I mean that I made them. 6367. Well, which of them have you made ? Well, I thipk the Black Creek Bridge was the last one I ma'de. That is somewhere near Newcastle. Then, besides that, we built some two or threes bridges for the Eailway Department. 6368. Whom were you with? Iwas with Ostermeyer,Dewez, & Company (Limited). Iwas their engineer. '6369. But they imported all their bridges? No; only one or two. That was just as I landed here. After that I took care that they did not import any others. 6370. You say you are a draftsman in the Eoads and Bridges Department ? Yes ; an " extra temporary'' hand. 6371. You say that with regard to the G-lenlee Bridge you were unsettled in your mind as to what to do, and you consulted a friend. Who was this friend, if you do not mind telling us. Who was he ? I do not think I should name my friend unless I received his permission to do so. He is sitting at this table, and I am not afraid of mentioning his name, if he has no objection. May I ask him the question ? 6372. Is it Mr. Foote, of the Sunday Times ? I never instructed him or anyone else to mention the matter in the Press. 6;J73. Did you mention it to anyone else. Did you not speak to the Colonial Treasurer about it? Yes. 6374. Well, what was the result ? I simply called upon Mr. See. 6375. Well, tell us as briefly as possible what took place ? I told him that I desired to speak to him on the subject of the railways, with reference to a railway bridge on the Southern Line. He replied, "Had you not better go to the Commissioners." I said, " I have a reason for not going to them, and my reason is that I should not place my charges before them as a Civil Seryant, and if you will allow me I shall make the charges to you, I only want you to see fair play, because I have, as a member' of the public, to travel oyer that viaduct in order to reach my land on the other side." Mr. John See said to me sharply, "Have there ever been any charges brought against you in the department? I said "no, Sir, never in that department or any other." The result of that interview was that between twenty- four hours I was asked to meet the Commissioners and the engineer, Mr. Darley, Mr. Hickson, Mr. Deame, and I believe Mr. McLachlan were there. 6376. Mr. Brown7\ At all events you met a big crowd of these gentlemen. 6377. Mr. FehonT] Do not you think you are the greatest engineer in the Colony ? No ; but I do think I have had a very fair training. 6378. Did you not consider these gentlemen the leading engineers of the Colony ? Certainly. 6379. And did they not tell you that you were altogether wrong in your idea of the Grlen Lee Bridge ? No, they did not. I wish they had, then I would have had something to say about it. 6380. Suppose Sir John Fowler had said that the Grlen Lee Bridge was quite safe ? I presume that I could produce evidence or state facts that might show him to be in the wrong. 6381. Mr. Brown.] What is your opinion, you know you came here as an expert ? I did not come here on my own account. 6382. But you are here as an expert ? I am not aware of that. I do not know who called me. I have never seen Mr. Hoyle to speak to until I was called here. 6383. Well, will you set your opinion against Sir John Powler, if he said this bridge was safe? Yes. 6384. Mr. Fehon.] And Mr. Deane, and Mr. Hickson, and Mr. Fbxlee, and Mr. Darley, you would set your opinion against theirs ? I would want to have their figures. There is no use in taking a man's word. Let us have the facts and the figures upon which ho bases his opinion. 6385. Why did you not send your figures to these gentlemen ? You sent for me at IL o'clock, staiing that you wished me to call at 12 o'clock the same day. I was on duty at the time, and my private house is at Fairfield. When present I said that I was prepared to give you a copy of my calculations. I asked you to produce the drawings of the bridge, and you would not produce them. 6386. How long were you with C. de .Berque ? Two years, I served my time there. I was under the greatest engineer of the day. 6387. Mr. Brown.] Where were you employed ? I did not say I was employed there. 6388. BALDWIN I,OC0MOTITES DfQtrifiT COMMISSION — MOrTES OF EVIDENCE. 199 6388. Mt. Fehon.] "What is the highest position you ever held ? The highest I. held is that of engineer, Mr. A. Leahy, at £1,000 a year, and more than that, T could get it again if I returned to England. ^ — * — " 6389. Would not that be better for you to do than remaining here as a draftsman ? I have family reasons ^'^ ^^y> ^^^2. for not returning home. 6390. Did you ever tender to supply a locomotive in this Colony ? Tes ; that was in the year 1887. 6391. Tou were the lowest tenderer ? I do not think I was ; but I think I was very near it. 6392. Tes, the lowest ? Tou do not know why your tender was not accepted ? No. 6393. Have you ever had anything to do with locomotives here ? No. 6394. Or permanent-way ? No. 6395. Then your experience must be a very old one, yet you come here as an expert, and give your opinion about the rails and permanent-way when you know nothing about them ? Witness : — Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you. 6396. Mr. Brown'] That is not fair, Mr. Fehon. He comes here to give his evidence before the Commission for whatever it is worth, and you have no right to comment upon it now. 6397. Jf»'. Felon.] Very well. Tou have looked at that ra,il, and you have given your opinion as to the drop test it could stand ? I am only speaking from memory. 6398. What weight dropping 12 inches should break that rail? I should say possibly from 20 to 22 or 23 tons. 6399. Mr. Felon.] Tou think it ought to stand that before breaking? No ; I think that should nearly break it. 6400. Professor Warren.] Will you tell me the span of the Glenlee bridge ? I think there are 19 spans ; but I would not swear to that. They have 21-foot centres. Three beams in the centre. The beams in the span are composed of six 12 x 12 ironbark timber, and corbels. These beams are not compound but only laid on top of the other. , 6401. Then they must be considered as two single beams ? I will leave that to you to settle. 6402. According to that they would not be strong enough ? If they were compound beams they would be about a third more than my estimate which is 49'35 tons as the ultimate breaking strength of each of the beams, and the ultimate breaking strength of the whole of the beams in one span would, I estimate, be 296-1 tons. 6403. Supposing that they are two single beams, would they not be twice as strong if you put in the necessary shearing and bolts ? Tes, I agree with you ; but they are not compound beams because they do not contain the necessary amount of keys to secure them together. 6104. The proper amount of shearing you mean ? Tes. G405. Tou have assumed in making your calculations that the medulus of rupture is 12'096 lb. ? Tes. 640C. Well, what weight would the bridge carry per foot, assuming the modulus of rupture to be right ? 13624 tons would be the maximum load which could be brought upon the beams, but the ultimate breaking strength of each of the beams provided is equal to 49'35 tons, and the ultimate breaking strength of the whole of the beams in one span equals 2961 tons, therefore the safe breaking strength of a complete span of the structure with a factor of safety of 5 equals 59'5 tons. The breaking strength of each of the beams provided, I have given as 49 'BS tons. 6407. That is the distributed load? Tes. 6408. I think I saw certain wheels drawn upon your diagram. I suppose you have taken the bending moments of these ? I have taken the centre of gravity of the whole .and put it in the worst position for loading. 6409. Then the total load which should come upon the structure or that portion of it would be about 9 tons ? Tes, I think so. 6410. Tou say that each of these beams will take 49-35 tons, and that is distributed, and six times that would be the strength of the bridge, let us call it 50 tons, then roughly we will have 300 tons as the carrying strength of the bridge ? Tes ; I make it 296'1 tons. 6411. What is the weight of the superstructure itself? Nine-tons, each span, in fact a little over, but I have taken everything in favour of the Commissioners. The only difference would be the modulus of rupture, and that I would not take in practice at too much. 6412. Nine tons is the weight of the beams then, and what*kind of deck is there ? The planks are about 14 inches apart, I think, and they are about 8 x 8 or 10, and the rails are laid on this longitudinally ; there are rail bearers underneath the rails, about 13 x 8 or 9 each. 6413. Well, you make out that this bridge will carry about 300 tons, that is 63'62 tons is the distributed load at the centre of the beam, and the distributed dead load due to the locomotive you estimate at 127'24 tons, and the load due to superstructure at 9 tons ? Tes. That gives a total load of 136'24 tons. The live load of the engine is equal to 63 tons and twicethe live load is equal to the dead load. 6414. 15 tons 9 cwt. is the weight on the driving-wheel, do you know what is the equivalent bending moment to that ? Tes, the maximum moment is 167 tons at the centre of the beam. ♦ 6415. Taking the 63'62 tons distributed load and dividing it into 300 that leaves you about 4 tons ? Tes. 6416. I do not say that is the correct way in which to treat the matter ; — what do you make out your factor of safety to be in these calculations — never mind about doubling the live load? My factor of safety, drawn from these calculations, is 218 and by doubling the -live load it would be slightly more' than that ; that is to say, if I took the dead weight. These calculations are made on the basis of Professor Eanken's rules, the only ones by -svhich I know these calculations can be made. 6417. 2-18 is not a large factor of safety? No, I think not. 6418. I shall be glad to look at that bridge. At present the calculations show that it is weak. In the calculations the witness may not have taken into consideration all the elements he should have done. 6419. Mr. Felon.] The question of this bridge scarcely comes in the scope of the inquiry ; but as the question has been raised as to its strength, we shall put Mr. Poxlee in the box, and he will clear up any- thing that requires explanation. 6420. Mr. Brown ^ This is Mr. Hoyle's last witness, and we look upon this matter as an important one, as it is possible that the Baldwin engines may have to he carried over this bridge. 6421. Mr.^ Felon.'] Tou went over it on Sunday on a "Baldwin engine. 6422. Witness.] I did not say that the bridge would not carry the Baldwin engine, but I raised the question whether there is not a doubt with regard to the public safety. ' Would, for example, an insurance company take the risi? 6423. 200 BAlDWnf lOCOirOTITES IKQTriET COMMISSION— MIKUTES Or ETIDEKCE. Mr.A.Lea,hy, 6423. Mr. Srown.] They would take it if you gave them the premium they wanted; that is the only ~ ^ question. 17 May, 1892. 6424, Professor Warren.] I understand that your factor of safety, 218, is arrived at by adding the live load to the dead load ? That factor of safety is the dead load. The Board of Trade regulation gives 5 ag the factor of safety, but iny calculations with regard to this bridge show, it only to have a tactor of 2-18. 6425. Never mind the Board of Trade regulations, I think they are generally recognised to be a little out of date. 6426. Tou consider that an iron rail is unsafe with the sleepers at their present distance apart, but that steel rails would be safe with sleepers about 2 ft. 7 in. in the centre ? Yes. 6427. You were asked some questions about axles— could you tell me, without referring to your notes, what tests you would specify for ascertaining their quality ? I have made no notes. I did not know that I was to be called here tiJl last Thursday ; this is my first day out since I have been ill— indeed, during the whole morning I did not know whether I should be able to reach here. I have had no opportunity of making preparations for examination, and the calculations which Ihavemade with reference to this bridge had nothing to do with this Commission at all. I have therefore made no notes, but I shall answer any questions put to me, as far as I am able, with pleasure. 6428. Mr. floyle asked you some questions with regard to testing of axles— now, what tests would you pre- scribe, first of all with regard to steel ? For steel I should expect the axle to double up whole without a sign of fracture, and in the event of a railway accident occurring through the breaking of an axle, I should want it to do exactly the same thing ; no matter whether the axle Avas of steel or iron, the same test should ap^ly to both. In steel it would be very important that it should contain a certain amount of carbon, perhaps a little more than is usual for some other kinds of steel. Steel axles should have 'a of carbon. 6429. "Would you subject them to tensile tests ? Yes ; I should apply a test of 23 to 28 tons with a contraction of area of about 20 per cent, "With regard to iron, the tensile test would be about the same, perhaps a little less — say from 23 to 26 tons. 6430. And the ductility would be the same ? Yes ; I would require a test equal to that for Bowling or Low Moor iron. 6431. Looking at the rail .taken from the railway accident, could you say whether it is good or bad material ? No ; it would take me several hours before I could answer all the questions necessary to be answered. The fact of a rail being turned is a very good guide to what may follow. 6432. Mr. Hoyle.] About the strain on an iron and a steel rail — what difference do you consider there is between the strength of steel and iron ; — for instance, that rail is 75 lb. of iron to the T?ard. Now, would the strength of a 71-lb. steel rail be equal to that, or greater? It would be equal in strength, but it would not be equal in section, and it would not do to make a smaller section of it. In the case of a steel rail it would have to be a smaller section than in the case of an iron rail. 6433. Professor Warren.] Taking the ordinary steel used for rails and the ordinary iron, what is the difference of strength ? There is not very much difference. I have known some good iron rails to be better than a great many common steel rails. Take, for example, the little ferrules for stopping the tubes of boilers. You can take some of our steel rails and make the finest ferrules b^' cutting off the flanges. You can get steel of almost any quality — some of it will break o3! like glass, and some twist off like putty. 6434. Mr. Soyle.] Do you consider the continual strain on iron reduces its power of resistance. For instance, if you put a T rail on the sleepers aud make the space 3 feet apart, as is at present the case, with our iron rails laid on the straight, what would be the resistance of steel compared with that of iron ; — would the resistance of the steel be greater than that of the iron ? Yes, in the proportion of about 3 to I, that is to say, that if in the one case you require 10, in the other you. would require 30. 6435. Profeisor Warren.] If the tensile strength of the iron rail would be 20, then the tensile strength of the steel rails would be 60 ; — is that what you say ? No ; I made a mistake — the tensile strength should be about 32 tons. I thought you were talking about the drop test. [This closed Mr. Hoyles case.] 6436. Mr. Broien.] I think the Commission should tell you, Mr. Hoyle, that, generally speaking you have produced no evidence with regard to the last part of your allegations— namely, that these engines are not rendering the services which they were expected to perform. There has been indirect and inferential evidence given touching upon this point, but no specific evidence has been called witli_ regard to it. 6437. Mr. Soyle:] I understand that. 6438. Mr. Prown.] I thought that, under the circumstances, I should call your attention to it. 6439. Mr. Fehoii.] The Eailway Commissioners ask for an adjournment until to-morrow. The Chief Commissioner is engaged on another Commission, and he expected to be there to-day, but, unfortunately, * Mr. Schey was sick, and, contrary to his expectations, Mr. Eddy is relieved from attendance there to-day. ' Anticipating that he would be at the other Commission, however, he was prepared to go on with' our case before you to-morrow, when the other Commission will not be silting. He will address some remarks to this Confmisslon on the general question of the inquiry, and then we shall proceed to call evidence in support of our statements, but I would ask you now, inasmuch as the strength and construction of the Glenlee bridge has been brought into question, whether I may not in the interim call Mr. Foxlee, who will lay before you, so that it may be made public, a statement, supported by the very best evidence that can be obtained in this world, in regard to the strength of the bridge, so that whatever may have been said on the subject may be put right. With your permission, I will ask Mr. Foxlee to come forward and lay certain facts before the Commission. 6440. Mr. Prawn.] I do not think there can be the slightest objection to either course. The adjourn- ment, of course, we shall grant at once, and we shall be glad in the mean time to hear Mr. Foxlee's evidence with regard to the Glenlee bridge. Mr. Foxlee recalled : — Mr. Foxlee. 6441. Mr. Fehon.] Tou are responsible for the designs of all bridges constructed under instructions by the '^■*~*-''~^ Railway Commissioners ? Yes. 17 M»y, 1692. 6442. You prepared designs for the bridge at 37 miles 75 chains near Glenlee ? Ye«. 6443. Have vou any doubt as to the suitability of that structure ? None whatever. 6444. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIRY COMMISSION— MINUTES OF ETIDENCE, 201 6444. Tou have seen certaia Press strictures in regard to the construction of that bridge ? Tes ; I saw Mr Foxlee. some in a Sunday paper some time ago. .' '' \ (11.45. Mr. Brown.] You may also add that you have heard the 6vidence that has heen given in regard to 17May, 1892. it this afternoon ? Tes. G446. Mr. Fehon.'] And as a result of the Press strictures was not a Board appointed to inquire into the construction of that bridge ? Tes, a Board was appointed for that purpose. 6447. Who were the members of that Board ? Mr. Deane, the Engineer-in-Chief for Eailway Construc- tion, Mr. Darley, Engineer-in-Chief for Harbours and Eivers, Mr. Hickson, Engineer-in-Chief for Eoads and Bridges, and myself. 6448. Have you that report ? Tes, I have it here. 6449. Would you kindly read it ? Certainly :— " At the request of the Eailway Commissioners we have carefully investigated this matter, making all necessary calculations with that view, and have no doubt of the complete stability of the bridge in question in every respect. — C. W. Daeiet, E. T. Hickson, H. Deane, W. T. Poxlee." 6450. Mr. £rown.] Tou put that in as evidence, do you not, Mr. Poxlee ?, Tes. 6451. Mr. Fehon.'] Was it not stated by the newspapers in question that designs would be forwarded to ■the engineering journals in England ? Tes. G452. And, as a result, were not plans and particulars of the bridge sent to Sir John Powler for his information ? Tes, sir. 6453. Have you got Sir John Powler's report ? I have a copy of Sir John Powler's report here. It is a short report only — only a few lines ; it is as follows :— " Sir John Powler to Agent- G-eneral. Sir, — I have to acknowledge your letter of the 22nd instant, enclosing letter from the Secretary of the Eail- way Commissioners, dated 15th Pebruary. I have examined the drawings of the bridge referred to in the letter of the Commissioners, and assuming the workmanship to be good, I am able to say that the design is satisfactory and sufficient, including the provision against wind pressure. — I am, Ac, John POWIBE." 6454. So that Sir John Powler, Mr. Deane, Mr. Hickson, Mr. Darley, and yourself all report that the structure is perfectly safe ? Tes. 6455. Were you present at the test of the bridge ? No ; I was not present. 6456. Have you reported the test ? Tes ; may I read it. 6457. Mr. Brown.] Certainly ; who made the test ? Two of my assistants tested the bridge, and this is the report they sent to the Secretary : — " We beg to report that yesterday, the 3rd instant, the traffic was diverted over what will be the up-road between 37 miles 37 chains and 40 miles 3 chains, and all was satisfactory. Owing to the comments that have been made regarding the strength and stability of the timber viaduct at 37 miles 75 chains, special attention was paid to this, and very careful tests were made laterally, transversely, and longitudinally, with a train consisting of a new Baldwin Consolidation engine, No. 495, and two suburban American carriages. These tests give highly satisfactory results, and we are satisfied that the viaduct is capable of carrying, with the utmost safety, the heaviest load possible to be brought upon it. Diagram of tests being attached, signed: James Praser, Eobert Kendall, David Simpson." I may mention that the maximum deflection of one span was a little over a third of an inch. They also tested the bridge by rushing down the incline, and putting on the brake, thus stopping the train suddenly on the bridge, and the longitudinal movement was nil. That is the result of the test. 6458. And that was one of the heaviest engines on the New South Wales Eailways? Yes; it was a Consolidation goods engine. 6459. Secretary to tTie Bailioay Commissioners.'] It was the heaviest engine on the railways. 6460. Mr. Fehon (to Witness).] And you consider that a highly satisfactory result? Thoroughly so. 6461. Mr. Brown.] Tou heard the evidence given by Mr. Leahy ? Tes. 6462. Was it correct from a scientific point of view ? No, it was not, in my opinion. 6463.' Mr. Hoyle.] Have you had any independent tests of these bridges from gentlemen outside the department, Mr. Poxlee ? No. 6464. The gentlemen whose names are here on these reports are departmental officers ? Tes. 6465. Tou said that this matter was submitted to Sir John Powler;— was the plan of the bridge sub- mitted to him ? Pull details of the structure, as carried out, were submitted to him. We would not content ourselves by sending to him merely a tracing of the drawing of the bridge ; we had the fullest details worked out for his information. Indeed, for that purpose I sent some of my best assistants over the ground to take very careful measurements, and then to plot them, and from that drawing tracings were sent to Sir John Powler. 6466. The remarks that I am going to make, gentlemen, I wish to explain, do not carry with them — at least, it is not my intention that they should carry with them any reflection, but I should like to ask you, Mr. Poxlee, whether you consider Sir John Powler the best authority in England to whom this question could have been submitted ? Tes, I certainly do; I consider him one of the best bridge engineers in the world, and seeing that he is the designer of the Perth Bridge, amongst numerous other structures, I think I am perfectly safe in making that statement. 6467. Would you now have any objection to supply me with a copy of the 'tests you have had made ? That is a matter for the Commissioners. 6468. Mr. Brown.] Have not the tests just been handed in. 6469. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes ; but those copies belong to the Commissioners. 6470. Mr. Broivn.] Tes ; but you. will have a copy of them procured for to-morrow. 6471. Mr. Fehon.] The reports are perfectly public now, only I have an objection to the way in which the matter was first brought on. 6472. Professor Warren (to Witness).] Is not the design of this bridge somewhat similar to thejiaduct that Mr. Deane has got out — I mean to say that it consists of three beams ? They are very similar. 6473. I take it that these wedges are 3 by 1^, and that they bear the shearing stress ? Tes, they are always carefully wedged and tightened up. ''474. That is 3 by li and 12 deep. What is a safe shearing stress per square inch ? I have not my calculations with me. 6475. I am not asking for the actual shearing stress, but here is a wedge which will obviously shear at a certain place. I take it that it is the best iron bark you can get. 6476. But you have to resist the horizontal shear with these wedges ? Not altogether so ; you see they are bolted rierht through, and then there is the friction of the timber beams and the shearing of the bolts. 6-2 C 6477. 202 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTJiaT COMMISSION— MINUTES OF ETIDENCB. Mr. Foxlee. 6477. And to resist the vertical sheer, you have the iron bolts ? Yes ; every transome is bolted through. v^T--^^ 6i78. But whatdo you allow per square inch sheering resistance on ironbark ? I have not my calculations ay. 8 ■ with me now, and do not remember thsm. ,., , 6479. This bridge may be safe, but those wedges are not safe, I am certain. They are nothing like large epough ? But there are the bolts. i. • -p- j 6480. Well, even so the wedges are too small beyond a doubt. I should not put them in. j: our wedges are 3 by U, and I should certainly think that 10 by 3 would be nearer the mark. This is a question that I put to Mr. Whitton before he left, and he agreed with what I am saying now ? Yes ; but you weaken your beams enormouslv by putting in such lariie wedges. 6481 I do not for one moment mean to say that the bridge is not strong enough. I have not gone into the subject sufficiently to enable me to form an opinion on it ? I say you weaken your beams enormously by making your wedges so large. 6482. Yes ; but you weakened your power there as it is ? Yes ; but you treat the beam as a continuous girder. 6483. But how can you treat it as a continuous girder, when it is joined here ? Under each beam. 6484. But most of them, I take it, would be joined over the piers? Yes; they are joined alternately under and over. 64S5. Of course you cannot treat a timber girder as continuous, unless it is actually continuous through- out ; — ^you cannot make joints unless you put iron plates on i' We have treated it as a single span. 6486. Of course I do not for a moment dispute the result that you have arrived at ; — you say that your assistants were very well satisfied with the bridge on account of the deflection? Yes. 6487. What does the deflection tell beyond the stifEness of the bridge ? It tells you the stiffness undoubtedly. 6488. A beam 12 inches deep might deflect a certain amount, and a beam 6 inches deep might deflect more with the same load;— how did your assistants connect the stiffness with the strain; — of course it can be done, but they speak so strongly in reference to the deflection that one cannot help pointing out that after all it only shows the stiffness of the bridge. A gentleman the other day giving expert evidence, made very strong remarks about the stiffness of a bridge, and he did not know what load was on the bridge at the time ? But if he had been there himself and taken deflections, he might at once have said that the bridge was not stiff enough. 6489. Well, there is no other question that I can ask Mr. Foxlee in relation to the bridge at present, because he has not got his calculations here. 6490. Mr. Brown (to Witness).] You heard the evidence that Mr. Leahy gave just now, and you heard him say that he had an interview with you and some other gentlemen with regard to this particular bridge? Yes. 6491. Did you give him an opportunity of putting before you his complaints with regard to the want of stability in the bridge ? Yes. 6492. When questioned upon the subject he seemed to complain that he was hurried into the question without being armed with the necessary papers, which he said he had left at home ; — he seemed to com- plain that when he came before you gentlemen he did not get the attention to which he was entitled ? He received every attention. This dravring was placed before him, and he was asked to say where the bridge was weak, but apparently he could not do it. He would only reply in very general terms. He could only say that it would break, that it would tumble down, and so on ; but when we asked him why he could not tell us. 6493. Mr. Sroum.'] Did you give him any other opportunity of proving his case — of bringing before you any papers of which he was possessed, or did you then set to work to decide the matter for yourselves ? We gave him every opportunity, and he said that he had not his calculations with him. 6494. Did you offer to delay your judgment at all in order to enable him to obtain the papers? I think I am right in saying that the Commissioners asked him to send in his calculations. 6495. They invited him to send in any information of which he was possessed ? Oh, yes ; Fam sure of that. 6496. And on this information you set yourselves to decide whether the bridge was safe or not ? Not that we had the slightest doubt about it. 6497. No ; but at all events you did make inquiry ? Yes ; it was after some articles appeared in the Sunday paper to which I have previously referred, I believe. 6498. After the articles appeared in the Sunday paper you sent these gentlemen out to inspect the bridge, and also the details of the structure home to Sir John Fowler? We made our own report, but as the comments to which I have referred continued, and as the paper threatened to send reports of the matter to the various engineering journals in England, we thought it just as well to anticipate anything they might do by sending the fullest possible details to Sir John Fowler, who, being on the spot, would of course know what was the best course to to take if comments upon the matter were made in the home papers. 6499. And the result was satisfactory ? Eminently satisfactory. 6500. Frofessor Warren.'} Do you not, think it would have been more satisfactory if you had sent the drawings home to Sir Benjamin Baker to examine ; — of course I do not wish to infer that Sir John Fowler's authority was insufiBcient, but we all know how much work he has, and the possibility of his handing the matter over to an assistant ? As Sir John Fowler is the Consulting Engineer to the New South Wales Government, and is in such intimate relationship with the Agent-General, we thought that the best thing we could do was to send the details to him. 6501. I should like to say when this question of bridges crops up again that I shall not ask any general question with regard to them ; I will either ask no questions at all or else I shall go into the matter thoroughly ; it is not sufficient to come here and say this bridge is good because so-and-so says it is ; no one doubts that Sir John Fowler is one of the first engineers of the world, but if any evidence is given it ought to be given in such a way that we can publish it so that the world at large can see that the bridge in question is all that it should be, and in order to know that I should require to be told the factor of safety that you h;ive adopted ? I think I am right in saying seven. 6502. That applies to all bridges, I suppose ; — I am very sorry to have to go into the matter at all, but it seems to me that we cannot escape from it, inasmuch as the Baldwin engines have to pass over these bridges? We shall be glad to put these drawings in for your information. ' 6503. BAIDWIF lOCOMOTITES INQTJIEX COMMISSION — MIWrTES 0I> EVIDENCE. 203 6503. Mr. Boyle.] As you had no doubt about the safety of this bridge, would you tell us why you Mr. Foxlee. submitted it to Sir John Powler? &. j /--.a^-^ 6504. Mr. Fehon ] I think I can answer that question better than Mr. Poxlee. ^'^ ^*y> ^^^2. 6505. Mr. B'own.'\ Tou will find it at question 35, as follows .— ^^y- 6578. Mr. Royle.] My fourth charge, Mr. President, is,— l8J[^!v^9 " (*) That there are engines already in use in our railway system that are as powerful as the Baldwin ay, i89^. passenger engines, and, therefore, another type of engine has been added to our stock, thus increasing the already too many types of engines in existence." 6579. Mr. mdy.l I must again object. The charge (No. 3) opens up the whole question of railway management. 6580. President?^ It has been decided, and I cannot hear you any more. It has been decided by a majority of the Commission to admit the charge (3) . 6581. There was not in use on our railways a passenger engine as powerful as the Baldwin, and no one in the service could confirm the assertion made. "With regard to the types of engines, as the restriction of type was one of the first things the Eailway Commissioners on taking oflSce announced their intention of dealing with, they can be safely left to carry out their own intentions. They, however, do not propose to put the Locomotive Department right by adopting as standard types engines they do not approve of, and so continue the wasteful expenditure caused by having so many types. 6582. President.'] Mr. Hoyle calls my attention to another part of the evidence showing that this charge was disallowed. The following is the passage in the evidence referred to : — 38. Mr. Koyle.'] (Eepeated the fourth charge.) It has been said, in inspired paragraphs in the Press, that we had no engines here powerful enough to do anything like what these engines can do. I say that we have engines quite powerful enough for that purpose. 39. President.'] That is entirely outside the scope of this inquiry ; — I understand you to say ttiat the Commissioners have ordered something thai, is clearly unnecessary ; — the question is whether they have received what they have ordered or not ; whether these'engines were necessary or not does not matter ; — that can be no charge. But, as you have got so far in your remarks, perhaps it does not matter. 6583. Mr. Hoyle.] I have no objection. 6584. President^ As a matter of fact, by having sold some of the exceptional types, broken up a few. that were completely worn out, and having placed others on the duplicate list, to be worn out in performing ballasting and other unimportant work, the twenty-eight recognised types have been already reduced to eighteen, even if all the new American and English engines are included, and out of the total stock existing at present, of 481 engines standing on the books on capital account, 831 of them belong to four types. 6585. We often hear of forty-two different types, but, as a matter of fact, there are only twenty-eight actual distinct classes or types of engines in the service of the New South Wales Railway, and we have already reduced that twenty-eight to eighteen by taking the course I have indicated. That includes all the new English and American engines. I might explain, with regard to purchase of engines, that it is customary with all good undertakings to renew engines out of working expenses, and somewhat in advance of time, because there is always depreciation going on in connection with all rolling stock ; so that, unless you pass something then to what stands on your books, you will afterwards be on the wrong side of the ledger. All good companies renew their engines sometimes in advance of time, and place them on their books. The engines so replaced are allowed to work themselves out in such work as ballasting and shunting, and work of that kind, and here we are adopting the same principle. We have a number of engines, waggons, and carriages which the capital account is free of altogether. 6586. With regard to the charge, — " That the Baldwin passenger engines and the Baldwin consolidation engines are faulty in design, and that certain parts — the axles of the bogies and tenders — were dangerous, and grave neglect was shown by allowing the engines to run before the parts in question were removed." 6587. I submit that not one iota of evidence of any weight has been produced to prove that the engines are faulty in design ; on the contrary, the witnesses called to testify against the engines have nearly all admitted that they are well-designed, and are performing the work expected of them. When the charges were promulgated in Parliament not a defect had shown itself in any of the engines, in fact, only a portion of the passenger engines were in steam, and not one of the goods engines had arrived in the Colony, the first one being put in steam on the 30th of September, whereas the charges were made on the 20th August. Although the attack was made in Parliament on the 20th August, the first failure that occurred was on 27th October — more than two months afterwards. 6588. With new engines small matters like axle-boxes running hot, and points of that kind, cannot be looked upon as failures, as all new machinery, whether in steamships, workshops, or locomotive engines, requires careful attention for a time. With regard to the failure of the bogie axles, &c., the Commission has had placed before it a letter from the Baldwin firm, which reads as follows : — Baldwin Locomotive Works, Burnham, Williams, & Co., Philadelphia, 15th February, 1892. Mr. H. McLachlan, Secretary Government Railways of New South Wales, Sydney, N.S.W., — Dear Sir, Your two favours of 27th November and 7th December were duly received, but our reply has been unavoidably delayed. It is with the utmost regret that we have learned of the breakages of the engine and tender axles of the twelve 10- wheel passenger locomotives which were received last year, per " Henley." The several reports sent us have received , careful consideration. In contracting for these locomotives, the Commissioners desired to obtain engines adaptad to unusually heavy service. In order to secure the utmost efficiency, and to obtain the best results of American experience, they left many of the details of the specification to our judgment. The material for the driving-truck and tender-axles was left optional, and as, in our opinion, the most satisfactory results are usually obtained from axles carefully forged from selected scrap-iron, we ordered such axles from the manufacturer, whose product we had been largely using with good results, and whose reputation for excellent work is generally recognised. No test was prescribed by us, as it is is well known that no test of scrap-axles is conclusive. We relied upon their showing clean, uniform, well-worked material when turned up in the lathe. Steel axles, or axles forged from muck-bars, can be tested under a drop with reasonable probability of the uniformity of the axles not tested, but the fact that a hammered scrap-axle withstands such test is no guarantee tliat others of similar manufacture and appearance will stand. Not only have we been buying axles in this way for many years but, so far as we know, it is the general practice in buying hammered scrap-axles, both by railroads and manufacturers. These axle forgings did turn up clean, smooth, and free from flaws, and we supposed to be as good as the many hundreds which we have received from the same maker without one instance of failure coming to our knowledge. We go into the matter at this length to assure you that there was no conscious lack of diligence exercised by us to supply materials of the best quality, which your Government was entitled to receive from us. We have already replaced the twenty-four engine truck-axles with others of steel. We ofier to reimburse the Government the cost of replacing the forty-eight tender-axles. AVe also offer to pay the reasonable cost of the labour involved in effecting the replacement. 6589. UALDWISr LOCOMOTITJKS INQTJIET COMMISSrON— MISTJTES OF EVIDEIfCE. 209 G589. miness.] They have also paid for a number of other things, the cost of which we thought they Mr. E. M. &. ought to bear. ° ' fa J ^^^^ f f JZ'a Tnr wlTh' thp* wf ' f°"^'"^^ dimensions of the truck and tender axles and journal bearings are ample for the ir'T;:-^, fast speed for which the locomotives are suitable, provided the quality of the material is good, and the bearings for such ^^ ^^^' ^^^2. ?-[:^^^f»,^rtPr of tW hi^rwf «. fl^"' 'T'''"' 'ri^^r'^ Sood results. ^Ve should have much hesitation in increasing *,t«fJ^T^.npr truck wwf '" • '"""" ^''^f =' °^'"g *° *^« ^'S^'' ^"'^"ve friction. It should be borne in mind Xl^wfnShttX^^^^^ l'^""-'-- *>>- the larger ]■ ,nir ^Z^view'TthHiZ ^'^ 'adopted we urge the desirability of making them 5i inches rather than 6 inches Wpdt^n, ariTarVr/rt»t th'f'^f ""^ ■''" T^ "^ new boxes-whether of Iron or solid gun-metal-should not be ohargedto iis as we are certain that the replacing of the axles will prove a sufficient remedy. trust Zr^Ti^onL^ltf^Sl^i^::::^^^^^^^ -^^ «- -- P^^y - the truck and^ender axles. We, therefore, by your drlwlngr' ^ ^''^^ ''''° ^ "'"""^^ '™' '" transmitting to our shopmen the dimensions of drawing-hook shown wftWh^^i'lTH-fi" f"'''* *" °V ^fT^ ^^"^ ""'t of replacing them with stronger hooks. Youra, &c., BURNHAM, WILLIAMS, & CO. 6590. All the cost of failures due to faulty workmanship has already, and without demur, been paid by udwin Company, and we still ^"l'^ " """~-J — i-i .j? _-,,..., „' ^. •> any other weakness should develop. 6591. "We deem it only rigbt to say r, o Tj • n 1 — V. i^v. j.oui.,j. ""liiinaiistiip nas aireaav, ana witnout demur, been paid by !it n£rwpS"^,ri'm^5 H!f "" considerable sum of money belonging to the Company in case , . ^. X • 1 . 1.- r . .^^l ^^^* ^® ^®^^ ^'^''^ *^^ Baldwin Company did not knowingly allow any defective material to be placed m the engines, and also acknowledge the readiness with which they and their representatives in Sydney did all in their power to rectify defects. Almost without a challenge they agreed to anything we proposed. 6592. With regard to the latter part of the charges it has been shown in evidence, even by witnesses called m to support the charges, that the usual precautions were taken in regard to inspection before the engines were put m work, and that no ordinary and usual mode of insnection could have detected the weaknesses which later on developed themselves. I think I may at this moment put in the result of some experiments with the Baldwin engines that we made some few weeks ago to test their hauling power.' We had not before tested these engines as to what they really could do. "We bad not driven them up to the highest point of their capacity. We simply put them to their work, and they were only called upon to the extent ot tbe reasonable requirements of our traflSc. When first using an engine it is not usual to test it to the utmost of its power— it is allowed to work up to its maximum capacity gradually. But when this inquiry commenced we thought it desirable to see what they really could do, and we gave directions that both a passenger and goods engine should be tested, and they were tested upon the Western line, and hauled exceedmgly heavy loads. The passenger engine was put to draw goods waggons, which is a heavier test than drawing passenger carriages. On the 1 in 33 grade the engine hauled 168 tons at the rate of 14|^^miles an hour. On the 1 in 40 grade the engine did not do so well as we had anticipated, till ultimately we found there was a piece of grade there of 1 in 37. The passenger engine went up this bank at 12^ miles an hour, with 195 tons. On the 1 in 50 grade the engine hauled 254 tons at 14-3 miles per hour. The Consolidation good.« engine, up the 1 in 33 grade, took 274 tons at 1\ miles an hour, and on the 1 in 40, part of which is 1 in 37, the engine hauled 311 tons at 47 miles per hour. On the 1 in 60 grade the engine hauled 433 tons at 97 miles per hour. These are very excellent results, and we question whether better have been ever obtained. 6593. Professor- Warren^ I think we got better results on Sunday. 0594. Air. HdJi/.'] Well, you had passenger stock then. These results were with goods engines. I will now put in this report. [The xvitness here put in "as Joint Report hy Messrs. H. Richardson, C. H. Stangar, and D. H. Neale, relating to tests of the New American Engine" together with a section showing the grades on the Marangaroo Bank.'] Another report, or, rather, I should say, interim report, was put into my hand as I entered the room by Mr. Hector Kidd and Mr. Eobert Pollock, who took the indicator diagrams on Sunday last during the trial trip. I will read what these gentlemen say : — Interim Kepoet. To the Commissioners of Railways, New South, Wales. _ Gentlemen, — In compliance with your request we have made a careful series of experiments with a 10-wheeled American engine. No. 447, in order to ascertain accurately the performance of the engine when hauling passenger engines up grades of 1-30 and 1-40. In your letter to the Baldwin Works, 22nd September, 1890, you stated that you wished the engines to haul regularly a load of 120 tons, exclusive of engine and tender, up a gradient of 1-30 without sharp curvature, and that occasionally you expected that a load of 144 tons should be taken up. On a gradient of 1-40 you stated that the regular load of 152 tons should be taken at about 22 miles per hour, and that the engine should be capable of occasionally taking a load of 176 tons. Our tests were especially directed to ascertain if the engines were capable of performing the above work. The trains were made up of Pullman sleeping-cars and first-class lavatory carriages, and in all cases weighed somewhat more than the stipulated loads. We succeeded in taking no less than 44 indicator diagrams, which will enable us in a few days to present you with a complete report as to the indicated horse-power of the engine, with a tractive-power and the .resistance of the train. Meanwhile the data so far obtained enable us to say that the load hauled and speeds obtained were as follows : — No, of trip. Gradient. Mean speed on the whole length of gradient. Weight of train exclusive of engine and tender. Remarks. 1 2 5 3 4 1-40 1-40 1-40 1-30 1-30 Miles per hour. 18.60 20.15 21.09 18'87 15'17 Tons. Cwt. 179 5 157 12 1.57 12 121 14 144 2 Length of gradient 2\ miles. Several curves of 16 chains radius on first mile. About 2 miles of 1-30 and | mile of 1-33. Curvature moderate. 6-21) We 2U BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQUIKT COMMISSIOlir — MIITUTES OF ETDDENCE. ■^ij ^® regard the results as extremely satisfactory and have little doubt that had the driver run such a train regularly, Eddy. he wpuld have been able to obtain even tetter results from the engine on the 1-40 gradients, which occurring immediately , — --«- — N after he left Pioton with a somewhat dead fire prevented the engine steaming as freely as she did in the 1-30 grades. The 18 May, 1892. latter however were approached by several miles of easy rising gradients' in running over which the action of the blast thoroughly iguited the fire, and consequently enabled the engine to steam freely and maintain its speed on the grade. We have, &c., HECTOR KIDD, EOB. POLLOCK. "Well, gentlemen, I think these performances are really magnificent performances. 6595. Professor Warren.'] Undoubtedly. 6596. Mr. Eddy.] In running the traffic from London to Scotland I can assure you of enormous talk of— and — but there we were only dealing with gradients of 1-75, while here we are dealing with 1-3. 6597. Professor Warren.] I shall have to ask you one or two questions about the speed when you have finished your evidence. 6598. Mr. Brown (to Mr. Eddy).] Eeally, that ought not to form a part of your case at present. Tou should call the witnesses who can prove these facts, and I presume you will submit them for examination" afterwards. 6599. Mr. Uddj/.] I am simply making a statement on behalf of the Commissioners, and I shall call witnesses to prove all the documents that I have read. 6600. With regard to the charge, " That in consequence of the great weight of these engines (the Baldwin passenger and consolidation), the safety of the permanent-way is likely to be endangered, our standard rail being 71 lb. per yard, whereas the above-mentioned engines wer designed for an 80-lb. rail," I beg to state that the whole charge is erroneous. The standard rail for the New South Wales Railways is 80 lb." to the yard steel rail, and at the present time no less than 200 miles exist, and the sleepers are laid 2 ft. 7. in. centre to centre, each sleeper averaging in weight over 2 cwt. 1 qr. The lighest rails these engines work are 71-lb. steel rails, but much of the road is 75-lb. iron and steel and 801b. steel. The question of the weight of the rail, however, is rather one of economy than of security, as the 71-lb. steel rail is sufficiently strong to carry an engine with a greater weight upon an axle than is the case with the engines under review. So far as the ordinary permanent-way is concerned, the actual weight of the engine is of far less importance than that of the distribution of the weight upon the wheels. In the case of the engines under c6nsideration, the 58 tons which the engine weighs when fully loaded is distributed over five pairs of wheels and axles, and the weight upon any one axle and pair of wheels is less by 1 ton 2 cwt. than in the case of engines which have been running for years past, and at a time when the roads were *not in so satisfactory a condition as they are to-day. 6601. I have had prepared, with a great amount of care, a statement showing the weight of rail in use in other parts of the world and the weight of engines run upon those rails, together with particulars of the weights borne by some of the driving-wheels, and this table will give a large amount of valuable and reliable evidence on the subject. C Appendix H) . That table will show you that in America on iron rails weighing 56 lb. to 60 lb. per yard, and on steel from 62 lb. to 70 lb. per yard, an engine is running with 19 tons 14 cwt. on its driving-wheels, and is going at a speed of from 70 to 90 miles an hour very frequently. You have got references here for that statement, and I am prepared to put in, if necessary the whole of the documents, of which Poors' manual is the most important. [A volume of Poors' Manual put in as evidence.] The Baltimore and Ohio Company have an iron rail of from 60 lb. to 80 lb. weight per yard, and their steel rail is 67 lb. per yard. That is lighter than any steel rail than we have in this Colony. They are running engines with 15 tons 14 cwt. on their driving-wheels, and the total weight of the engine and tender they are running is 93 tons 6 cwt. On the New York Central Railroad their maximum weight on the driving-wheels is 17 tons 16 cwt. Their steel, rails are from 65 lb. to 80 lb. per yard in weight, and on those rails they run regularly the Empire State express, which is the fastest train in the world ; and on the Philadelphia and Reading Railroad, where the maximum weight on one axle amounts to 17 tons, they use steel rails, varying from 56 lb. to 90 lb. weight per yard. The London North- Western Railway Company, with which I was nearly associaated for a quarter of a century, keep the weigt down very much. Here we look upon 1-30 as rather a troublesome grade, but but their worst grade is 1-75, and their object is not to run an engine adapted especially for that grade; but to employ a class of engines that will be useful for the average work of the road. The maximum driving weight on their engines is 15 tons 10 cw.t, but those engines are not ballasted in the Ijeautiful way in which the American engines are ballasted. The weight of the steel rails on the London and North- western vary from 80 to 94 lb. per yard. Then the North-Eastern Railway Company, which is the great competitor. London and North- Western run engines with 17 tons 15 cwt. on their driving-wheel. 1 am not certain of the weight of the rails on that line, but we will query it at 90 lb. per yard. The G-reat Northern Railway Company has engines with 17 tons on their driving wheels, and steel rails of 82 lb. per yard. That company runs exceedingly fast trains — indeed, it is the great racing line of England. Our 10- wheeled Baldwin engines carry 15 tons 5^ cwt. on a flangeless pair of driving wheels. The average weight on our driving-wheels is 14 tons 10 cwt. Our lightest rail is 71 lb., and it is a steel rail. We have also steel rails weighing 75 lb. and 80 lb. per yard, whilst the iron on the Western Line is 75 lb. to the yard. We have, therefore, a greater weight of road to run upon than many of the lines to which I have referred, and I will show you presently how our road is far superior to any other roads in the world. The Eastern Railway Company of France employs engines carrying a load of 16 tons 2 cwt. on the driving wheels ; there steel rails run from 69 to 89i lb. to the yard. 6602. Referring to the French railway^, the Engineer of 4th March says : " It might be thought that the engines would be somewhat heavy for the road, but the Chief Engineer of the permanent-way reports that 10 per cent, additional weight on the wheels is quite within its power to sustain. The rails are of steel, 69 lb. to the yard, but of later years, on different harder-worked sections, other of 89^ lb. to the yard, had been laid. These are 89 feet long, and cover sixteen sleepers. The rail is spiked direct to the sleeper in machine-sawn notches, that give a uniform inward cant to the rails. Under the flange, and on the sleeper, are laid pieces of felt soaked in tar to give a softer bedding, and prevent vibration." 6603. So you see this French engineers says that the rails 69 lb. to the yard can carry 10 per cent, to the yard more than 16 tons 2 cwt on a pair of drivers. I thought it was so striking that I ought to bring it before you. It is, of course, difficult to produce facts at this distance from England and America, to dis- prove statements made without justification, but fortunately I am in possession of some valuabe infor- mation on this particular subject. I deal with this matter very elaborately because I think it is a most serious BAIDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTJIET COMMISSION — MOtTTES OF ETIDENCE< 211 serious one that has been brought under the notice of the Commission, and it is one that is likely to Mr. E. M. G, alarm the public to some extent unless it is once for all disposed of. It was stated at the opening of this ^^"^y- inquiry, in support of this charge, that the rail in use on the Baltimore an Ohio line was a steel one, , a'^vT^^'iaQa weighing 80 lb. to the yard. This was stated to be on the authority of Poor's Manual, and the Eailway ^^ ^' ^°^' G-azette. Poor's Manual states that the rails in use are iron 60 to SO lb. per yard, and steel 67 lb. per yard. I submit to the judgment of the Commissioners the fairness of such a distortion of what is given in Poor's Manual. In addition to this I append copies of cables that were sent in August last, to and from America, when the statement was first made in Parliament (as it was so contrary to what was under- stood by the Eailway Commissioners), from which it will be seen that 671b. steel is the new standard rail. Our steel rails are 71 lb., 75 lb., and 80 lb. to the yard. This is the copy of the cable sent by Messrs. E. Towns & Co. to Messrs. E. "W. Cameron & Co., New York, on the 24th August, 1891. "Telegraph immediately for Government how many six- wheel coupled passengers, and eight-wheel con- solidation goods, the same as "Henley," " 8trathdon" (the names of the ships that brought our engides out) are running America. Is result satisfactory generally. Consult Forney. Advise weight rail Baltimo re . " The following is a copy of the reply that was received to that cablegram : — " Eight-wheel goods in general use with favourable results, weight better distributed and less destructive to rails. Coupled six- wheel passenger, same result as to rails. Over four wheels with increasing demand for heavy trains especially on western roads, but not used on Pennsylvania or New York central. They prefer dividing train. Baltimore steel rails 67 lb. per yard." Those two lines named have fairly easy grades as compared to our grades. 6604. The Commission has had evidence placed before it in support of the charge as to the importance of the society in America, styled the Master Mechanics Locomotive Superintendents Association. The body is undoubtedly a most important one, and much good has come out of its deliberations. It is well, therefore, to know what that body has decided upon this important question. At the annual convention of the association, in June, 1891, a committeed of the society reported that the limit of weight per driving axle should be 33,000 lb. (14i English tons) for rails under 60 lb., and 36,000 lb. (16 tons 1 cwt.) for rails above that weight. My authority for making that statement is the official report of the proceedings of the association at its annual convention in 1891. So that on a 62-lb. rail they consider that you can run with safety an engine over 16 tons 1 cwt. on the driving wheels. 6605. "Wellington's work " Eailway Locatron" is one of the standard works on railways, and from the extracts given below it will be seen that in America 70 lb. per yard for steel rails was evidently the highest standard, but that, for reasons of economy, an 80-lb. rail was urged, and it was thought it would doubtless be adopted ultimately. " Light rails," he says " are sooner or later avoided as the plague by all railways." He states (Tables 195, 196, and 197,page 740) that, by substituting an 80-lb. rail for a rail of similar form but 70 lb. weight the gain in the three essential qualities of the rail is as follows : — Stiff- ness 30 per cent., strength 22 per cent., durability 43 per cent. As the increase in first cost is barely 14 per cent, the advantage is obvious. Then again on page 747, and table 198 he states that, even supposing a 70-lb. rail has a life of sixty years, it is more economical to buy 75-lb. rails, reckoning compound interest at 5 per cent. 6606. On page 748 he says, again, " of all directions for economy, cutting down the rail section is the most costly in the end." On page 761 he says " It is in every way probable that in a few years 80-lb. or 90-lb. rails will be the rule, and lighter rails the exception. The inertia from past precedents which have come down to us from the days when rails were several times more costly than now, will in time be over- come." Then again he says " We have reason enough, and to spare, why all roads should tend as they do tend to use a heavy rail." It is all a question of economy why all roads should use a heavy rail. 6607. I wUl illustrate that by two sections of rails we have here. The 71-lb. rail was the standard rail when we took office. The head weighed 32'64 lb. per yard. We designed the 80-lb. rail with a head weighing 38'59 lb. per yard., therefore by adding 8i lb. to the total weight of the rail we got an additional 6 lb. in the head of the rail, and it is the head only that you can wear down with traffic. It was that reason, remember, which induced us to go into the stronger rail. The ordering of the engines in question and the weight to be borne by each axle received thfe most anxious consideration at the hands of the Commissioners and their officers before the order was given, but, as a farther increase in weight might become advisable in future years, I took the opportunity when I was in the old country of disucssing the question with Sir Benjamin Baker and Sir John Eowler — two of the most eminent engineers in England. Sir Benjamin Baker unhesitatingly agreed that we could with safety carry 16 tons on one axle on a 70-lb. rail with ironbark sleepers, 9 ft. x 10 in. x 5 in., placed 3 ft. centre to centre. I put a far worse case than our own before him, and he unhesitatingly agreed to that. As Sir John Eowler, Bart., is our consulting engineer I asked him to place his views in writing, which he did in the following words : — New South Wales Weight of Rails. 2, Queen'a-square Place, Queen Anne's Mansions, Dear Mr. Eddy, Westminster, South West, 22 October, 1891. The question you put to me yesterday with reference to the safety or otherwise of allowing locomotive engines with driving wheels having a weight of 16 tons on a pair to work on your 70-lb. rail was an important one, but I have no hesitation in answering it. Provided the sleepers are of ironbark, 9 ft. long by 10 in. wide and 5 in. thick, placed at a maximum distance of 3 ft. centre to centre, and the line, level, drainage, and ballast well maintained, there is no objection or danger in the use of such engines for either passenger or goods traffic. Of course I assume that the rails are renewed before they are worn and weakened according to usual good practice, which may be said to be applicable to rails of all weights ; but at the same time I should like you to undertsand quite distinctly, as my opinion, that with_ your present and certain increase of traffic, and the power and weight of engines, you are practically compelled to use a rail of 80 lb. per yard, is more economical than one of less weight, from its higher percentage of wearing weight, and its greater length of life before renewal. Your's, &c. To E. M. G. Eddy. JOHN FOWLER. 6608. The Lancashire and Yorkshire Company have running upon their line no less than 366 engines, with a weight upon a pair of driving-wheels of from 16 tons 10 cwt. 1 qr. to 17 tons 10 cwt. There is a diagram of all their engines with their weights. The Great Western Eailway Company of England have engines carrying 15 tons 10 cwt., 15 tons 16 cwt., and 16 tons 10 cwt. on a pair of _- wheels. As I am referring to the Great Western Company's engines, and you had so-called expert evidence the other day upon the weights of rails used by the different English companies by a gentleman who sa,id that he had given the matter a good deal of "study, and who spoke from personal knowledge of tbe rails on the Great Western *''-^ BAIDWIN LOCOMOTITES I>'QriRY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCK. ■"**'• J- ^- ^' Western Eailway seven years ago, his statements being to my knowledge absolutely wrong, I think I ^,^_j^_^ might giTeyou a statement by Mr. Wolfe Barry, a very eminent engineer at home, published in the work 18Ma^"l892 ^^ititled "Railway Appliances," a book of science, the 90th edition. The expert before you said ■ nothing at all about the bearings, he simply gave facta about the weight of the rails. 6G09. jProfessor Warren.] We kneW as a matter of fact that they had longitudinal bearing. 6610. Mr. mdy.] He did not say so. He said " The Great Western Eailway Company has 86-lb. bull headed rails, with the sleepers 2 ft. 9 in. apart, the sleepers in that case being 12 ft. x 6 in," and this was seven years ago, but the universal practice for cross sleepers in England is to place them 3 ft. apart. It is a most unusual thing to have them less than 3 ft. apart. Mr. Wolfe Barry, speaking on longitudinal bearings, says :—" There is ontheG-reat Western Railway a rail weighing 62 lb. per lineal yard, which has carried for many years and is now carrying the heaviest traffic, while other companies and the Great Western itself are using cross-sleepers for a rail weighinp; 75 lb.' to 80 lb. per yard." 6611. Well, I do think it is wrong for witnesses to say they have been studying the matter to come here to give expert evidence, and then make a statement of that' sort. But I will not be content with the contradiction that I have already supplied, I will give you information up to two days ago from Sir John Fowler, who is the Consulting Engineer of the Great Western Railway, because it is, I think, exceedingly wrong the reputation and the credit of the country, in connection with the Eailway Commissioners, should be jeopardised by witnesses who absolutely speak without knowledge of facts. As perhaps Professor Warren may know the Great Western Eailway is about to alter its gauge. The gauge was to have been altered last Sunday or this coming Sunday, from broad to narrow gauge, and there- fore, it would have been an opportunity for the Great Western Company to put in a new rail, therefore, in cabling to Sir John Powler, on the 11th instant we said, " Cable rail Great Western between Didcot and Bristol," which is a portion of the line upon which the heaviest of their traffic runs. In reply Sir John Powler said, " A quantity of 86-lb.. very small, nearly whole length is 68-lb. flat-bottomed bridge rails." That was on the 12th of this month, it was merely a repetition of the Baltimore and Ohio statement. 6612. Frofessor^arren.'] Does the telegram say that they lay the road with cross sleepers ? 6613. Mr. Sddy.'] It does not say that, but you see the rails are flat-bottomed. I should rather fancy that the 68-lb. rail would be on longitudinal sleepers. Still it was only a question of the weight of the rail that was stated here, and I produce sufficient evidence before the Commission to show the weight of the rail and the carrying power. The Midland Railway Company carry 17 tons 10 cwt. on a driving- axle and express engine. The London North Western carry 15 tons 10 cwt. on each of two pairs of driving-wheels of Mr. Webb's new description of engine, "Greater Briton." The Eastern of Erance, for the purpose' of avoiding running twO' engines with their passenger trains, has just put to work an engine carrying 32 tons on the two driving-axles, i.e., 16 tons on each axle, their general rail being 69-lb. in weight. But I will not trouble the Commission longer with that as we will put an officer in the witness-box to show you anything you desire to know with regard to the carrying capacity of rails in America in running engines with as great a weight as 17 to 19 tons on one axle at exceedingly high speeds upon rails varying in weight from 56-lb. to 70-lb, and he will give you all the information you desire, but this question being of so much importance I must trespass a little longer upon your time. 6614. Some stress has been laid upon the spacing of the sleepers upon the New South Wales Railways, as compared with those upon English and American lines, and the question has been put in such a way as to lead the Commission to believe that it is the prevailing practice in England to place the sleepers close together, and the New South Wales 3 ft. to 3ft. 1 in. apart, whereas the reverse is really the case. In dealing with the sleeper question, however, it must be borne in mind that this is not determined solely by questions of strength, but by the facts that a sufficient bearing area must be obtained for the rail on the sleeper, and the sleeper on the ballast, and the class of wood used. With the soft woods in use in Europe and America, it is absolutely necessary that the bearing surface of the rail and the sleeper should be large enough to prevent the rail cutting into the sleepers. In England this is guarded against by using cast-iron chairs, and in America by placing the sleepers close together. Even then continual trouble is experienced in consequence of the rails and chairs cutting into soft woods, which involves constant attention to prevent the roads coming loose. On the London and North-western Railways, for years I remember an experiment of putting pieces of felt between the sleeper and the chair, to prevent the chairs cutting into them, and with that object too we made the base of the chair exceedingly wide. The class of wood, therefore, is a most important material to be taken into consideration in dealing with the permanent-way. The very exceptional ironbark sleepers we possess in this country are so hard and durable that the fastenings retain their hold exceedingly well, and the rail cuts but slightly into the timber. The question of durability is also very important. The uncertain quality of the timber used for sleepers in America renders it necessary for a larger number to be used as a matter of precaution. 6(515. A most important point to be considered in connection with permanent-way is the weight of the road as compared with that of the rolling stock passing over it, as the weight of the road, as a whole, measures its resistance to the blows of the traffic. The following statement shows the weight of a mile of permanent-way of our three types of road as compared with the standard main line of a leading English Railway Company. I have had this worked out with the greatest care, and have also obtained from England the exact rate of their Baltic wood sleepers. In England they use Baltic wood sleepers which they creosote to make them last a little longer. 6616. The weight of 1 mile of the permanent- way of this Colony, .laid with 75 lb. double-headed iron and steel rails, placed in 27 lb. C.I. chairs, upon ironbark sleepers' 9 ft. long x 10 in. x 5 in., 3 feet apart centre, is 384 tons 7 cwt. 3 qrs. and 11 lb. The weight of a mile of our permanent-way, laid with 71i-lb. T steel rails, upon ironbark sleepers 8 ft. long 9 in. xiiin.,2 ft. 7\ in., and 2 ft. 8 in. centres, is 282 tons 2 cwt. 2 qr. 15 lb. The weight of 1 mile of permanent-way laid with 71i-lb. T steel rails, placed upon ironbark sleepers 9 ft. long X 10 in. x 5 in., 2 ft. 7| in. and 2 ft. 8 in. centres, is 346 tons 8 cwt. 1 qr. and 11 lb. The weight of 1 mile of permanent-way of New South Wales, laid with 80-lb. T steel rails, placed upon ironbark sleepers 9 ft. long X 10 in. x 5 in. ; 2 ft. 7 in. centres (Standard Road), is 371 tons 1 cwt. 3 qrs. and 1 lb. Now the weight of 1 mile of permanent-way in England, laid with 84-lb. bull-headed steel rails, laid in 45-lb. cast- iron chairs, upon creosoted Baltic sleepers, 9 ft. long, 10 in. x 5 in., 3 feet apart centres, is 344 tons 1 cwt. 1. qr. 4 lb., so that our 75-lbi rail on ironbark sleepers weighs 40 tons per mile more than the 84-lb. steel rail used in England with its 45-lb. cast-iron chairs, in consequence of their having a lighter timber, but then of course beyond the lightness they have not got the resisting power. Sleepers are smashed to pieces with their heavy traffic. There the renewal of sleepers is a very heavy item, but when we come to the BALD-WHf lOCOMOTlTES INQUIRX COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 213 the 71-lb. steel rail used here, and laid upon the lightest sleepers in use on the "Western Line, we find Mr. E. M. G. that it weighs 282 tons 2 cwt. 2 qrs. and 15 lb. per mile, and with the new class of sleepers it weighs 346 ^"^^y- tons odd per mile, which is really more than 2 tons heavier than the road per mile in England, where i^T^"^"^, they have an 84-lb. steel rail. That, I think, shows conclusively that we are, if anything, in advance of ^^^^^^ ^^^2. the world m regard to the weight of our road. The weight of the standard Baltic timber sleeper in general use on the best lines m England, is 9 ft. long x 10 in. x 5 in. creosoted is 160 lb., and that our ironbark sleepers of similar dimensions is 252 lb. As regards durability the life of the ironbark sleeper may be taken as fully double that of the former. I fancy it is a great deal more, but I wish to be quite within the mark. 0617. Professor Warren.] Tes, it is more than double. 0618. Mr. Eddy.] In the evidence brought in support of the charges, the rails on the New South "Wales railways have been spoken of generally as being laid on sleepers 3 ft. to 3 ft. 1 in. centre to centre, whereas out of our total mileage of 2,180 miles, on no less than 1,650 miles of the road, the sleepers are placed from 2 ft. 7 in. to 2 ft. 8 in. centre to centre on the straight. On the old road where the sleepers were placed 3 feet centre to centre on the straight, the road on curves was strengthened by additional sleepers, the rule having been to place the sleepers as close as 2 ft. 4 in. centre to centre, in sharp curves, less than 15 chains radius, and 2 ft. 9 in. in curves of from 15 to 30 chains radius. 0019. It has also been represented than only a few miles of steel rails heavier than 71i-lb. to the yard exist on our lines, whereas since the Commissioners have been in office, no less than 215 miles of line have been laid with 75 and 80 lb. steel rails, and an additional 55 miles with 71i-lb. steel rails. In regard to improving the ballast of the lines no less than 700,000 tons of ballast have been used. Out of that quantity 600,000 tons have been blue metal, hard quartz, or slag. 0620. In regard to the ordinary repairs to the permanent-way it may be mentioned that for relaying alone there has been paid out of working expenses during the three and a half years the Commissioners have been in office, £230,000. During fifteen years preceding the Commissioners taking office, a sum of £195,000 was paid for the same purpose. This and other important work has been done, and the working expenses reduced by over 5 per cent, per annum. 0621. As practically the whole of the Baldwin engines are working on the "Western Line, it will be well to detail the improvements made on the oldest section (Granville to Bathurst), a distance of 132 miles, of which 25 miles are double line. During the past three and a half years no less than 44 miles have been relaid, and more than 60 miles reballasted and lifted, while on the remaining portion a very large amount of lifting and slight reballasting has also been done. Before the close of the yearwe expect the whole of the rails on the western line from Sydney to Bourke, a distance of 503 miles, will be of steel, varying in weight to the yard 71i, 75, and 80 lb. "Well, sir, the Commissioners proposed, with your Concurrence, to call witnesses to prove the reverse of what these charges would indicate, and then we would ask you to be good enough, after these witnesses have been called, to allow us to make a few general remarks upon matters that have been placed before you, 6622. President.'] As far as calling witnesses is concerned, yes, certainly, Mr. Eddy, but about allowing the .remarks you speak of, if they are evidence well and good, but I do not think it is needful to have any- thing in the shape of advocacy. If the statement that you have just made is not even amply but fairly borne out. you have made out a very strong case, and one that requires no advocacy. I would rather you leave the question of making remarks until afterwards. This is practically your evidence. If you want to say anything else you shall have an opportunity of doing so, or you can call anybody else as a witness. 6623. Mr. Eddy.] Of course I am quite prepared now to answer any question in regard to the evidence that I have just given, if it is a question that cannot be answered by one of our officers as well as by myself. But anything that can be answered by one of our officers, I would rather leave to them to answer, as my time is very precious. 0624. President.] That is to say, you want to get away if you can do so. 6625. Mr. Eddy.] I do, my hands are very full. 6626. President.] If Mr. Hoyle wants to ask you anything he can do so afterwards, unless, indeed, he would like to ask you any question now, in which ease I have no doubt you will be prepared to answer. 6627. Mr. Hoyle.] No, I have no question to ask Mr. Eddy at present. I would rather have a chance of digesting what he has already stated. 0628. Professor Warren.] I would like to have a chance of digesting that, too. 0629. Mr. Prown.] Tes, we will get it printed first. 0630. President.] We will call you again, Mr. Eddy, and give you ample opportunity of submitting yourself to cross-examination. 6631. Mr. Eddy.] I am in a position to snsvver any questions that Mr. Hoyle or any member of the Commission v ould like to put now. 6632. Mr. Hoyle.] Do I understand that these various documents and maps are put in evidence. I think it would be as well if they were for many reasons, apart from those directly connected with this inquiry. 6633. Mr. Brown.] Here are copies of them. (To Mr. Eddy) : You don't want the big ones to be taken away, I suppose ? 6634. Mr. Eddy.] The only one that has not been prepared in the small form is the one behind you, and I will have that done. 6635. Professor Warren.] So they are quite ready for binding up in the volume. 0636. Mr. Eddy.] Yes, I think it is rather an interesting thing. I was surprised, I must confess, to see that the gradients on our lines are worse than any on the Alpine lines; for although I have been over the Alpine lines, I did not imagine that it was so. It is the difference in curvature that makes them so much more difficult. 6637. Professor Warren.^ And the rises. 6638. President?^ Well, Mr. Eddy, it is useless for us to keep you any longer here, but what about your witnesses. 0039. Mr. Eddy.] Mr. Eehou is prepared to go on with our case, but, as a matter of fact, we thought my examination would last the whole day, and I don't think we are prepared with anything else. 6640. Mr. FeJion.] "Would it meet the convenience of the Commission to take an adjournment now until to-morrow afternoon, when we shall be prepired to call our witnesses. 6641. President.] Yes, I see no objection to that, provided it will suit the convenience of Mr. Hoyle. 6642. Mr. Hoyle.] Yes, perfectly, Mr. President; in fact, I would rather that we adjourned now than continued the inquiry any longer this afternoon. THUBSDAY, 814 BALDWnr liOCOMOTITES INQTJIBT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETTDIINOE, TRUB8J)AY, 19 MAI, 1892. [The Commission met in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Office, at 2-30 p.m^ ^xzstxd: — F. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.G., President. Peofessoe WAEEBX, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDEE BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P^ €643. Mr. Soyle.] Mr. President : In view oftbe very important, very complete, and very long statement made by Mr. Eddy yesterday before this Oommispion, I rise to ask for an adjournment until "Wednesday next. I would ask for the adjournment until Tuesday, but that is a holiday, and I therefore feel compelled to ask for an adjournment until Wednesday next. In doing so I wish my object to be clearly understood. In the statement made yesterday by Mr. Eddy reference was made to a large number of railways through- out the world. Mr. Eddy has the command of a large staff to work up information for his use— an advantage which I have not got — and as the statement contained such a large lot of important matter in connection with which it will be necessary for me to make considerable research, the time which has elapsed has not given me an opportunity of doing so, neither has the time at my disposal enabled me to place myself in an efficient position to fcross-examine the witnesses — at least not such a position as I should like to be placed in. I think, therefore, that under all the circumstances my request is a reason- able and just one. At the same time I regret to have to make it, because I know thai this Commission, as Well as the Eailway Commissioners, may be put to some inconvenience, but I think it will be admitted that I have in the past attempted, so far as possible, to meet the convenience of every one connected with this inquiry. At the same time I must be just to myself, and as new and very important evidence has been given which I have not had time to thoroughly make myself acquainted with, I trust that my request will be acceded to, and that the Commission will now adjourn until Wednesday next. Instead of sitting on Monday we might, I think, sit on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, so that no tiojc will he lost except this one day. After all, taking into consideration the circumstances, perhaps a day's loss will not very much matter. I hope the Commission will grant the request I now make. 6644. Mr. Fehon.'] I think this is a very unusual request to make at this stage of the inquiry. If the Commissioners had asked for an adjournment to prepare their case I think there might have been some reason in it, but once having opened our case by the statement of Mr. Eddy, which, of course, is evidence, I do not think an adjournment should be granted. It is true that the Chief Commissioner has given evidence of a voluminous character, but I do not see that that is any reason for granting Mr. Hoyle's request. It must be remembered that this is Mr. Hoyle's inquiry; he has brought his witnesses and examined them, and put his case before the Commission, and we submit now that upon the threshold of our case — when we have been put to the trouble and expense of bringing men from the country to support the statements made by Mr. Eddy — an adjournment should not be granted. It is not my intention to intro- duce any fresh matter into the inquiry, for we look upon Mr. Eddy's statement as a complete answer to the case submitted by Mr. Hoyle, but for the satisfaction of the Commission we intend to call a number of men of various grades in the service to substantiate the statement which has been made before you. I can, therefore, only ask you to consider the great inconvenience and expense which this department has been put to since the commencement of the inquiry, and ask you is it a reasonable thing to stop us now? Mr. Hoyle stated that he experienced some difficulty in dealing with the various matters Mr. Eddy has brought forward. I may call your attention to the fact that Mr. Eddy said that all the authorities for his quotations and statements will be put into the hands of this Commission, and that being' so, I presume Mr. Hoyle would have the right to look at these authorities if he questioned any portion of the statement made by Mr. Eddy. 6645. Mr. Hoyle."] I would like the Commission to bear in mind, in coming to a decision about my request, that the Eailway Department is in a very different position to myself. That department, as I have already said, have a large staff of gentlemen at their command who can go on compiling the case for the Eailway Commissioners as the evidence is brought forward, but I, on the other hand, have got my private business to attend to, which gives me, so far as a day is concerned, very little time to consider the case as it is developed. The only time I have at my command for that purpose is after tea in the evening. My position is, therefore, very different from that of the Eailway Commissioners. The matter is now in your hands, and if you determine to go on with the evidence, of course I must give way, but if you grant the adjournment I ask I shall be exceedingly pleased. 6646. Mr. Fehon."] The Eailway Commissioners would not care to oppose anything in reason asked by Mr. Hoyle. He puts his case very fairly, and, perhaps, it may be admitted that we have .more assistance at our command than he has, but we are not going to bring forward one item of evidence beyond what has been placed before you already. The evidence we shall bring will be simply in corroboration of what has been stated by Mr. Eddy. Mr. Hoyle will have the right, I presume, of saying something at the termination of the inquiry, and by that time he will have been able to consider the matter in the whole of its bearings, so as to lay his views completely before you. 6647. President.] Mr. Hoyle, are there any witnesses present who might be examined this afternoon without prejudice to you. I am only thinking when I say this of the inconvenience to which the Eailway' Department may be put to by our granting an adjournment. 1 presume it would be the scientific evidence more particularly that you would like to be prepared for, but if there are some men here belonging to the Eailway service who would only depose to facts, would their examination place you in any difficulty with regard to the evidence ? 6648. Mr. Moyle.] I do not know who are here. Perhaps if Mr. Fehon would indicate the witnesses who are present I might be able to state wiiether their examination would interfere with me at all. 6649. President.] Is there anybody, Mr. Fehon, who might be examined without objection by Mr. Hoyle ? 6650. Mr. Fehon.] I would be content if the inspectors and gangers from the country were examined to-day. 6651. President] AVould that put you in a difficulty, Mr. Hoyle? 6652. Mr. Hoyle.] Well, Mr. President, there is a great deal in the statement made yesterday that is altogether wide of this inquiry, and there are many things I would like to think out. I would press again for an adjournment. It would not be much inconvenience to the Commissioners — only a matter of saving a day — and it would be a great convenience to me to have the inquiry adjourned. 6653. BALBWIN- LOCOMOTIVES IlfQTJIRT COMMISSION — MINTTTES OP ETIDENOE. 2l9 6653. Mr. Brown.] The department say they have two or three gangers here they would like to examine, so that they might then return to their work. Suppose the scientific evidence were set aside— the examination of Mr. Foxlee, for example, or other officers high in the service of the department. If that evidence were postponed, could we not take the testimony of two or three witnesses, such as gangers and others like that. Suppose the Commission grant your request so far as a postponement of the scientific evidence is concerned, would that meet your views ? 6654. Mr. Soi/le.'] Tes ; I would be satisfied with that. 6655. f resident.] If there were any thing you wanted to cross-examine these witnesses about which was not convenient now, your cross-examination might be postponed. ' Suppose we take only the men Mr. I'ehon has mentioned. 6656. Professor Warren.] I suppose that if Mr. Hoyle W9,nts to call a witness he can do so. I do not think any harm would be done to Mr. Hoyle bv going on with the evidence of the gangers, buti think'any expert evidence— such a high authority as Mr. Poxlee, for example— ought not to be put in the box without Mr. Hoyle having the opportunity he desires. I presume, Mr. Fehon, it is not your intention to put such a witness in the box this afternoon. Is that so, Mr. Fehon ? 6657. Mr. Fehon.] No. 6658. Mr. Brown.] Then you will be content to call these witnesses only ? 6659. Mr..Felion.] What I propose to do is to call some gangers on the line over which the Baldwin engines have run, and two or three officers of the department. 6660. Mr. Brown.] "Who are they ? 6P61. Mr. i'eJwn.] They are men a grade higher than the gangers. 6662. Mr. Brown.] Have you any objection, Mr. Hoyle ? 6663. Mr. Hovle.] Tes; I have. I believe one of these officers is an inspector of great ability. 6604. Mr. Fehon.] It is rather curious to object to him because he is a man of great ability. 6665. Pre-nifent] So long as you are not excluded, Mr. Fehon, you need not mind, I think. Mr. Hoyle is in this difficulty. The able statement made by Mr. Eddy is likely to occasion him considerable ground for thought and consideration, and I think it is very natural that it would do so, and if, without having gifsn that thought to this statement on account of the short time at his disposal, there are witnesses he thinks he will not be able to examine efficiently to-day, I think it would be fair to postpone their examination. 6666. Mr. Fehon.] 1 would like Mr. McLachlan to be called to put a document in evidence, so that itmay form part of the evidence of this Commission. 6667. President.] Tes. 6668. Mr. ffoyle.] I may mention that I made a request for certain books from Newcastle to be produced by the Eailway Commissioners, but up to the present time they have not produced them. 6669. Mr. .Fehon.] I think they are upstairs. 6670. The Secretary to the Saihvai/ Commissioners.] I thought they had beea sent in to the Commission. 6671. Mr. Hoyle.] The books will not go out of the possession of the officers of this Commission, and I do not intend to take anything out of this room, so that they will be quite secure. 6672. Mr. Brown.] Tou will let Mr. Hoyle inspect these books, Mr. Fehon ? 6673. Professor Warren ] The Secretary will be in charge of them, so that it will be really quite satis- factory to all parties. They will be in the charge of the Secretary to the Commission. Hugh McLachlan, being sworn, said : — 6674. -I am Secretary to the Eailway Commissioners of New South "Wales. Mr. H, 6675. Mr. Fehon.] In connection with the speech made by Mr. Hoyle in Parliament on the 20th August, McLachlan. did the Eailway Commissioners prepare, at the request of the Minister for Eailways, a statement in /''~'»-"~^'~^ regard thereto' dated the 7th October, 1891 ? Tes. _ 19 May, 1892. 6676. "Was not that document compiled by the Commissioners after discussing the matters thoroughly with their various officers ? Tes. 6677. Have you a copy of that document with you ? Tes. 6678. "Will you hand to the Commission a copy of the same ? Tes. [Witness here handed a copy of the 'document in question to the Commissioners.] 6679. Witness.] In the copies of Hansard containing the speech in question, certain extracts were marked for evidence. The extracts referred to 'are marked in the margin of this document. 6680. "Were the replies to the various statements made in Parliament based on the reports of the various officers in the department ? Tes ; we quote the names of the officers in full in this document. 6681. "Was a further paper prepared on the 18th November, regarding the various defects that had developed themselves in the engines, and sent to the Minister? Tes. 6682. Will you hand to the Commission a copy of the same ? Tes. [ Witness here handed to the. Commis- sioners a copy of the docmnent referred to.] 6683. Tou have heard most of the evidence given at this inquiry ; — have not the failures referred to been simply a repetition to a great extent of what the Eailway Commissioners themselves ofiicially informed the Minister of in the papers referred to ? Tes ; I think the Commissioners will find this to be so by reading the documents I have handed in. John Brady, being sworn, said : — 6684. My position in the Eailway service is that of a ganger. _ Mr. J, Brady. 6685. Mr. Fehon.] "What part of the road are you engaged on ? On Springwood. /-v_^^--^ 6086. What is the present state your length;— I may state to the Commissioners that I intend to ask all 19 May, 1892. the witnesses the same questions ? Very good. 6687. Has your length been lifted and ballasted ? Tes ; all but about 2 miles. 6688. And why has not that been lifted and ballasted;— does it not need it ? Not so badly as the other parts. 6689. From your experience, which do you think, two engines coupled together or one Baldwin engine, would knock the road about the most ? Two engines coupled together, from my experience. 6690. Professor Warren.] They would do more damage, you say ? Tes. 6691. S10 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQVrRY OOJIMTSSIOX— iril^'UTES OF ETIDENCE. Mr. J. Brady. C691. Mr. FeJion.] Have you had more trouble in keeping the road in order since the Baldwin engines ■./T7"'*"'TI)J„ ^^^® been running than before? Not a bit. „ \^ j. x 19 May, 1892. 6692. Do these engines take the curves more easily than those of other types? Tes, so far as I am concerned they do. 6693. Is your road sleepered with ironbark ? Tes. 669i. Did you find the fastenings hold well in those sleepers ? Yes. 6695. Did you ever see an ironbark sleeper decay ? Tes. 6696. Ton have seen them rot in the road ? An odd one; a very odd one. , o tr 6697. Generally speaking, do you consider the Baldwin engines fit engines to run on that road .-^ ies, I do. 6698. Mr. Hoyle.'\ "What length are you on ? Springwood. 6699. What rails have you on that length ? Double-headed steel rails. 6700. "What weight ? 75 lb. to the yard, and 42 chains of it is laid with steel T rails. 6701. "What is the space of the sleepers in your length ? On the curves it is 2 ft. 4i in. 6702. Is that right through, or does it vary on the straights? It varies on the straights. 6703. Is that the uniform spacing both for the 80-lb. steel and the 75-lb. iron rail;— is the spacing the same for both rails ? The spacing for the 80-lb rail is 2 ft 4^ in. 6704. The spacing then is the same ? Tes. 6705. Are they all steel rails in your length ? Tes ; 80-lb. and 75-lb. steel rails. 6706. Have you any broken rails in you length ? No. 6707. None whatever ? I have seen them, after they have been in the press where they have been cut. They might go out a little at the bottom flange, but nothing to hurt. It would be inside the fish-plates. 6708. The double-headed rails you speak of have they been turned? Tes, in two of the curves. 6709. But anywhere on the straight ? No. 6710. Did you turn the rails on the curve ? No ; I did not turn them. 6711. Are there any turned ? Tes, there are. 6712. Are your curves true ? Tes ; in the cuttings. 6713. Do you know the weight of these engines passing over the road ? "Well, according to what I see in the papers, they are 90 odd tons in weight. 6714. One of these engines weighed 90 odd tons, and there is one case in which the engine weighed 97 tons ; there is alse another engine by the same company weighing about 87 tons. Do you consider that the engine which weighs 10 tons more than the other is not more injurious on the road than the ligdter one? 6715. Mr. Fehon.] That is scarcely a fair question. Witness.'] I am not an expert, and so I cannot say. 6716. Mr. Fehon.'] That is scarcely a fair way of putting the question. Every well-informed man in these matters knows that the weight of the engine itself has nothing to do with the wear on the road. It is the weight on the driving-wheel that has to be considered. I suppose, as far as the ganger is concerned, he does not know anything about it ? 6717. Mr. Brown.'] So far as he is concerned, he has already given evidence that the engine is suitable to the road, and I think it is only fair that Mr. Hoyle should have an opportunity of getting from him by what means he arrives at that conclusion. 6718. Professor IVarren.] Are you speaking of the old Consolidation engine — that is 75 tons, is it not ? 6719. Mr. Royle.] Tes ; but there is another, I think, which weighed 87 tons. (To "Witness) : You were asked just now by Mr. Fehon whether two engines coupled together would be more injurious upon a road than one. Now, remember that these two engines coupled together are each of them lighter than the Baldwin engine. Now, considering that, do you swear that these two coupled-engines, each of which is lighter on the driving-wheel than the Baldwin engine, would do more damage to the road ? 1 believe that the Baldwin engine goes round the curve easier than the other two engines. 6720. Professor IVarren.] That is not the question. 6721. Mr. Soyle.] The question is, whether the enginewith the lighter load on the driving-wheel, would do more harm than the engine with the heavier weight ? I do not think it would make any difference to the road. 6722. Mr. Broion.] He cannot tell you ; he only sees the road and the engines passing over it. It is in, that general way you should ask him the question. 6723. Mr. Soyle.] Tour esperience has been then, that the two engines coupled together are just as injurious to the road as one engine ? Tes. 6724. Now, have the two engines coupled together been more injurious ? I cannot say. So far as my experience goes, one is as safe as the other. ' 6725. How long has the 75-lb. steel rail been in your road ? Since 1878. 6726. Professor TVarren.] "With regard to the effect of the Baldwin engine in knocking about the road ; in answer to Mr. Tehon, you were saying what you actually saw every day. Tou do not base your opinion upon the weight itsfelf, but from the work you have to do on the permanent way. Does the Baldwin engine knock the road about ? I would as soon see it go over the road as any other. 6727. Tou have no more extra work to do on account of it ? No more than I did before. 6728. The Baldwin engines do not tend to spread the road more ? Not so far as I can see. 6729. Then, in the curves you mean to say that they do not tend to spread the road more than the ordinary engines ? No ; not so far as I can see. 6730. Mr. Brown.] Do you put strutting in at a curve? I did do so.- 6731. "When ? Shortly after the road was lifted. 6732. How long ago was that ? Over twelve months ago. 6733. Professor 'PFarren.'] Tou have not to do more work now than you had to do before ; — I mean in consequence of the Baldwin engine being on your line ? No. 6734. And your lines are in good order ? First rate. 6735. Mr. Fehon.] Has it always been the custom to strut in the curve ? Always. 736. There is nothing new in it, is there ? No. 6737. Mr. Hoyle.] How long has the 80-lb. rail been down on your line ? Since the beginning of 1891. ' "'""■ John BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQUIEX COMMISSION — MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE, 217 John Berghoffer, being sworn, said : — 6738. My position in the Eailway Service is that of a ganger, and I have been in the service for Mr. J. eleven years. . Berghoffer. 6739. Mr. Felon.] What part of the road are you now engaged on ? Erom 65 miles to 70 miles 60 chains. ^''TJ^'^^o 6740. Yes ; but whereabouts is that ? At Katoomba. ^^' ^ ' 6741. What is the present state of your length ? It is in very fair order. 6742. Has it been lifted and ballasted ? Tes. 6743. Prom your experience, can you say whether two engines coupled together, or one Baldwin engine would knock the road about more ? There is very little difference, I think. 6744. Have you had any more trouble in keeping the road in order since the Baldwin engines have been running on your Hue ? No. 6745. Tou have seen the Baldwin engines running daily ? Tes. 6740. Do you consider that they take a curve more easily than engines of other types ? I cannot say that they do. ^747. What is their effect on the curve ;— do they knock theci about at all ? No more than the other engines ; they seem about equal. 6747i. What weigbt of rail have you on your length ? We have two different weights— 75-lb. steel rails, double-headed, and the 80-lb. T rail, also steel. 6748. Tour road is all steel ? Tes ; that is on the main road. 6749. Have you iron-bark sleepers ? Tes. 6750. Spaced how far apart on the straight ? About 3 feet. 6751. We do not want to know "about," give it to us exactly what is your standard distance? About 3 feet seven-eighths, I think. 6752. Is it not a little less than that; — do you say that that is exactly how you lay them the straight ? Tes. 6753. On the curves, the light curves a^id the sharp ones, how many sleepers do you put on the rail length. Pirst of all how many on the sharp curves ? On the 30-ft. rail we put twelve sleepers. 6754. How many on the straight ? Twelve on the straight. 6755. And if a curve of a larger radius how many additional? On the 24-ft. we put ten sleepers. 6756. Do you ever find any of your sleepers decaying ? Tes. 6757. Do you consider the Baldwin engine to be suitable for running on your length of road ? Tes. 6758. And do they do any more damage than other engines ? No. 6759. Mr. Hoyle.] How long have you been upon this length? Nine years. 6760. On this particular length ? Yes. 6761. Will you tell me how many sleepers you put on a 30-ft. rail on the straight? Twelve sleepers at present. 6762. Professor Warren.'] On the straight ? Tes. 6763. Mr. Hoyle.] And on the curve? Do you mean the 30-ft. or the 24. 6764. How many sleepers do you put to the 24 ? Ten. 6765. Is that only in the case of the 75 and 80 lb. rails ? Tes. 6766. Tou do that in both cases ? Tes. 6767. That is ten sleepers to the 24 ? Tes. 6768. Since these Baldwin engines have been running have you had any broken rails on your length ? None. 6769. None whatever? No. 6770. Do you find that the rails crush much at the chairs or ends ? No. 6771. Is your road wavy ? Have you indents in your road ? Tes. 6772. Do the ends of your rails bend down ? Tes. 6773. Do the joints bend down ? Tes. 6774. Do you find that to be the case with tlie SO lb. rail as well as the 75 lb. rail ? No, not so much. 6775. Not so much with the 80 lb. rail ? No. 6776. Does the bending at the joints cause you any extra trouble ? That always has been the case. It is most of our work lifting joints when they go down. 6777. Are all the sleepers in your length perfectly firm ? Tes. 6778. Do you find the sleepers loosening from time to tinje ? No. 6779. Tou do not ? In wet weather they sometimes get loose a little. 6780. Then you injmediately pack them ? Tes. 6781 . Do you know the weight of the Baldwin engines ? Only by what I have heard. 6782. They are 90 tons for the passenger and 97 for the goods ? Tes. 6783. Do you consider that an engine of that weight has a worse effect upon the road than two engines coupled together ? It has not. 6784. Have the two coupled together a worse effect than the one ? I do not know. 6785. But do you think they have ? I do not. I think they are very much alike. 6786. Is the bottom of your road rocky under the ballast ? Only in the cuttings. 6787. What kind of ballast are your rails fixed with ? There are different kinds, sandstone, hardstone, and some other ballast. 6788. Have you any blue rock ballast ? No. 6789. Do you consider your road in first-rate order ? Tes. 6790. And perfectly safe? Tes. 6791. Professor Warren.] When you say that the Baldwin engines do not knock about the road more than other engines, do you go simply by the work you have to do to keep it in order? Tes. 6792.' Tou say you have no more work upon your length now than you used to have ? No. 6793. Tou say that you have had a lot of work at the joints, do you find that the 80 lb. rails give you as much work at the joints as other rails ? Tes, just about the same. 6794. Tou have the ordinary fish-plates I suppose ? Tes. 6795. They are not angle fish-plates are they ? No. 6796. They do not spread over the rails ? No, they fit tight. 6797. Mr! Fehon.] We use no angle fish-plates at all. 6798. Professor Warren.] I am surprised to hear that. I rather like the angle fish-plates. 6-2 E ~ 6799. ^■'■^ BALDWIN lOCOMOTITBS INQTJIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. Charles Low, being sworn, said :— 0. Lowe. 6799. I am a ganger employed on the New South "Wales Government Eailways. ■ -^ 6800. Mr. Fehon.] How long have you been in the service ? ^Fourteen years, or thereabouts. 6801. "Were you ever on any other railway worls; besides this ? Tes. 6802. "Who were you employed by before you entered the Government Service ? By contractors. _ 6803. "What part of the road are you engaged upon now ? My length goes from 150 miles 40 chams to 156 miles 40 chains. . 6804. Tes ; but what do you call your nearest station ? The nearest station is George s Plains. 6805. "What is the present state of your length ? In very good order. 6806. Has it been lifted and reballasted ? It has beeH lifted right through. 6807. "What is your opinion about two engines coupled together as compared with one heavier engine, in their effect upon the road. "What effect has it on the road ;— do you consider that two engines knock the road about more than one engine of a heavier type, or do you think that the one heavier engine would do more damage to the road ? That is, two light engines to one big one. 6803. Yes ; \thich do you think would do the greater amount of damage to the road ? 'Well, in my opinion, it makes no difference. The road is very heavily ballasted. I do not think it makes any difference. 6809. Have you had any trouble in keeping your length in order since the Baldwin engines have been running? No. 6810. How do you find the Baldwin engines take the curves ? They do not appear to hurt the curves. They do not appear to hurt the line any more than any ordinary engine. 6811. "What weight of rail have you on your length Y I hare never seen thorn weighed, but I think they are about 73 lb. to the yard. 6812. Are they double-headed rails ? No ; they are steel T rails. 6813. And you have got ironbark sleepers down there ? Tes. 6814. Do you find the fastenings hold well? Do you mean in the new sleepers ? 6815. Tes ; in the new sleepers ? Tes ; I do. 6816. Tou consider the Baldwin engines are suitable for running on the length of road that you have, charge of ? They do not hurt the length of road that I have charge of in any way whatever. 6817. Mr. Hoyle'.'] Is all your length of road laid with T rails ? "Tes ; all T rails. 6818. "Was it relaid with new rails when it was lifted ? No ; not all of it. 6819. Have any portions been relaid with nevvr rails ? Tes. 6820. What was the weight of the rail ? About 73 lb. to the yard. They are not the heaviest rails. 6821. Mr. Felion.'] They are 71-lb. steel rails. 6822. Mr. Hoyle.'] What is the space of the sleepers in your length on the straight — how far apart, centre to centre ? It all depends upon the length of the rail. 6823. Well, I hardly see how that can be, but at all events in your length there is nothing more than 24-foot rails. With a 24-foot rail there are ten sleepers. 6824. And the 21-foot rails — how many sleepers are there to them ? There are nine sleepers on the 21-feet rails. 6825. Tou have no chairs on your road at all ? No. 6826. And you have no double-headed rails ? No. 6827. And your road has recently been lifted and re-ballasted ? Tes. 6828. With what ballast ? With blue metal. 6829. How long is it since your length was re-sleepered ? Well, they did it in 1891 — some time last year, but I have forgotten the exact date. 6830. Was it re-sleepered last year ? Partly last year and partly the year before. 6831. Was it only re-sleepered where you put in new rails ? No ; all through with the exception pf a few chains on the other end. 6832. And there the sleepers were already good ? Tes. 6833. Have you had any broken rails on that length ? No. 6834. How long have you been on that length ? Two years two months and two weeks. 6835. Where were you before you went there ? Before I went there I was at Woodstock. 6836. What rails w«re there there ? The rails there were similar to those at George's Plains. 6837. Were they T rails ? Tes. 6838. And was the spacing of the sleepers the same ? No ; the sleepers were not placed as close. 6839. What is the spacing of the sleepers on the Cowra line? A 24-foot rail has nine sleepers under it. 6840. Sinc6 these Baldwin engines have been running, have you had any more work to do by way of keeping the line in repair ? No. 6841. "Tou have not had more work to keep your length in order ? No. 6842. What speed do the engines travel over your length ? I do not know which portion of the length you refer to. 6843. I refer to any portion of it. Tou have curves, and you have gradients on your length ? Tes. 6844. About what speed do the engines travel up the hill — take a Baldwin passenger engine for example ? About 20 miles an hour, as well as I can tell. 6845. At what speed do they come down the hill? They come down the hill at about 30 miles an hour. 6846. Have you had any trouble with your curves since the Baldwin engines have been runnin" ? Not since the road was fixed up. 6847. But have you had any trouble before it was fixed up ? No more than we should have had with any ordinary engine, 6848. Tou were on the line before it was fixed up ? Tes. 6849. The Baldwin engines were not running then, were they ? No. 6850. Had you more trouble then than you have now ? Tes ; I had a lot more trouble. 6851. Of course you would have, because then you had a bad road, and now you have a good one ? Tes. 6852. Professor Warren.'] Where' did you say your section is ? George's Plains. 6853. Where is that ? The second station on the other side of Bathurst, the fiirst staff station beyond Bathurst. 6854. Mr. Felion.] Tou see we have taken men from various places along the Western road, where these engines BALDWIlf LOCOMOTITKS INQUIRY COMMTSSIOIT — MIUrTES OF ETIDENCE. 219 engines are running, in order that we might give the Commission a fair idea of the general condition of Mr. C. Lowe, the road. / — ~a-— m 6855. Professor Warren fto Witness).] And you have 7l^-lb. steel rails? I have never seen them ^^.^^y'"^^^^. weighed, but I suppose they are about that, I know they are the second size. 6856. Do the Baldwin engines give you more trouble to keep your road in order ? Not the least. 6857. And you think that two smaller engines coupled together would knock about the road more than one large one ? I do not think there would be much difference. . 6858. Supposing you put two Baldwin engines together, would they not knock the road about more than one engine would ? 1 believe they would knock the road about more than one would. John McPeak, being sworn, said: — 6859. I am a ganger on the Xcw South, Wales Eailways. \ M^Peak 6860. Mr. Felion.'] How long have you been in the service ? I commenced in the service in January, 1877. "^^^.^^ 6861. Have you been in any railway" employ before ? No ; I have been in the Government Eailway jg j^^y 1392, employ all the time. ' ' 6862. What part of the road were you engaged upon? Two hundred and thirty-two miles ten chains to 6863. But what is your nearest station ? It is a station called Mumbil, 233 miles west of Sydney, near Dubbo. 6864. What is the present state of your length? It is ffiir, there is a fair running top on it. 6865. Has it been lifted and ballasted ? It has never been ballasted, only maintenance ballast. 6866. Has it been lifted ? A part of it has. 6867. It is in good order, is it ? Tes ; it is in fair running order. 6868. What is your experience about two light engines coupled together, as against one heavy engine. Do you consider that either the one or the other does more damage to the road ? The two engines coupled together will knock the tangents out on the curve, more than one engine would. 6869. Have you had more trouble in keeping your length in order since the Baldwin engine started running ? No. 6870. Tou consider the Baldwin engines take the curves very easily ? Tes ; they take the curves easily — they keep the tangents better than the other engines. 6871. What is the weight of the rails on your length ? They weigh 71 lb. the yard. 6872. They are steel rails, of course ? Tes ; they are steel T rails. 6873. What space apart are they ? Two feet four inches at the joints, and 3 ft. 1 in. intermediate. 6874. How many sleepers do you put on a 30-foot rail on the straight ? We do not use any 30-foot rails up Lhere. 6875. Well, how many sleepers do you put under a 24-foot rail ? We put nine under a 24-foot rail. 6876. Do you find that the fastenings hold well ? Tes ; the fastenings hold well in these ironbark sleepers. 6877. Have you ever had any broken rails on your length ? Tes. 6878. How many ? I have had three within the last two and half years. 6879. Have you had any lately ? Tes ; I had one on the 7th April. 6880. Do you consider that the Baldwin engines are fit for running on your length ? Tes ; they are fit to run on the length. 6881. And they do no more damage than any other engine? No. 6882. Mr. Soj/Ie.'] How long have you been on this length ? I have been on this length three years and four months. 6883. Where were you before that ? On the Molong line — the branch line. 6884. Tou told us just now that you had a broken rail on the 7th of last month ? Tes. 6885: Are there many of the Baldwin engines running on your length ? Tes ; there are a good few. There is one on the mail train, and there is one on the 38 mixed goods — the Limerick — and then there is an occasional goods. 6886. Can you tell us how long before the 7th of April it is since you had a broken rail? About ten months before that. 6887. From your experience, do you consider that the rail that broke was an inferior one— was it too hard ? No ; it had a flaw in the flange. 6888. I ask you whether it was too hard, because we want to be perfectly fair, and I have had a great deal of experience of rails myself. I have had a rail break with one blow of the hammer, because it has been too hard. . 6889. Did you find that the rails which you took out were very hard ? Well, it had an old flaw in the flange — the flaw was not visible for daily inspection, because it was covered with the ballast. 6890. Was it broken very far up ? It was broken right across the flange. 6891. Did it appear to be an old break ? Tes ; it was rusty right across the bottom. 6892. Tou said just now that you considered that two lighter' engines coupled together would do the road more harm than one heavy one ; you said that they would do more damage to a curve than one engine of a hei^vier type ;— how do you account for that ? Well, the two coupled together oscillate to such an extent when they go on to a tangent. 6893. But do you draw your conclusioa from the fact that with two engines you get two quick successive blows on the leading wheels of the first and second engines, from the fa'ct that they follow so close one behind the other, two engines not being able to take a curve at the same moment? No. 6894. Well, do you consider that it is the two quick successive blows that do the damage .-' Tes. 6895. Do you know that it is not so much the four bogie-wheels as the driving-wheels that do the damage ? It is the driving-wheel that does the injury. i 1 -n j i. 6896. Well, do you contend that an engine with a light weight on the driving-wheel will do as much injury as an engine with a heavier weight on the driving-wheel ? Tes ; it will do as much damage as a heavier engine, in my opinion. , 6897. Are your curves strutted in any way ? No ; they are not strutted. _ 6898. And you say that you have had no more trouble since the Baldwin engines began to run tlian you had before? No. ^^^^^ 220 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQUIRY COMMISSION- —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. T M^P k ^^^^- -^^^'^ J"^ ^^"^^ ^^^ °^^J ^^''6^ broken rails in two and a half years ? That is all. d^^mcreak. gQQQ jj^^^ ^^^ p^^^ of your rails been relaid lately? There was a deviation relaid, but that was all. 19 May 1892 ^^^^- Have you had any new rails put in lately ? No. 6902. How long have these rails been in ? About twelve years. 6903. Mr. Fehon.] These gangers, whom we have called as witnesses, represent two from the Mountains and two from the level country beyond. "We can bring gangers from each length if necessary, but we thought that in bringing the four men whose evidence you have heard, we should be giving you a good deal of the work along the road where the Baldwin engines are running. As I said before, we have some inspectors here waiting to give evidence, and I do not know whether Mr. Hoyle would object to our calling the two who have come from the west, Mr. King and Mr. Eobins. It is Mr. Waring, I under- stand, that he does not wish to have called until next week. 690i. Mr. Hoyle.'] No ; if they have to go back, I will not object. I might point out here that up to the present I do not think I have had Inspector Gregory's report. "We had to get two reports— one from Inspector Gregory and the other from Mr. Eobirison. Mr. Robinson's report has been laid before the Commission, but up to the present we have not had Mr. Gregory's report. Both of these gentlemen took trains to gauge the width of the platforms, and so far they have only had the report of one of them. I should like to have Mr. Gregory's report before me before Mr. "Waring comes to give evidence. 6905. Mr. Brown.'] Mr. Pehon, this was promised a week ago. C906. Mr. Fehon.'] I believe there is a report from Mr. Gregory. 6907. Mr. Brown.] "Will you see that Mr. Hoyle gets it ? 6908. Mr. Fehon.] I will see that it is laid on the table. 6909. Mr. Brown.] Well, as long as you see that he gets it I do not care ; but we do not want to have any more postponements. Mr. King, being sworn, said : — Mr. King, 6910. I am a sub-inspector of the permanent way on the New South Wales Government Railways. ^~^^ — — s 6911. Mr. Fehon.] What is your district ? Onohundred and four miles twenty chains to 19 L miles. 19 May, 1892 (J9i2. Tou have nearly 90 miles on your road then ? Tes ; 87 miles. 6913. How long have you been in the Service ? Twenty -three years. 6914. Have you had any experience in railway work before you joined the service ? Only with contractors. 69^5. The road that you have under your charge is a portion of the road over which these Baldwin engines are running now, is it not ? Tes. 6916. What weight of rail have you on your length ? Various weights. 6917. Will you tell us what weights ? 80-lb. steel rails, 75-lb. steel rails, 71-lb. steel rails, and 75-lb. iron rails. 6918. And is your length all sleepered' with ironbark sleepers ? Well, yes; with ironbark sleepers, but not right through. 6919. That is to say, that some of the original road was not laid with ironbark sleepers, and yet those sleppers are so thoroughly sound that you do not need to take them out yet ? Tes. 6920. Are all the fastenings good ? Thoroughly.. 6921. What is your experience of an ironbark sleeper, as to the quality of wood ? It is far superior to a gum sleeper. (5922. Is there any wood that you know of that is better than an ironbark sleeper ? Not for sleeper purposes. 6923. Do you know the weight of an ironbark sleeper? Well, it just depends on the length of it. 6924. Well, yours are 9 ft. long x 10 in. x 5 in. ; — do you know what an ironbark sleeper that size would weigh ? I do not know ; I never weighed one. 6925. I suppose it is heavier than a sleeper the same size made of any other kind of wood, is it not? Tes. 6926. What is the spacing of your sleepers ; — give us the old road and the road that you have been relaying ? The straight portion of the old road was sleepered with sleepers 3 feet 1 inch apart, and the curves from 15 chains and upwards had one extra sleeper in every 24 feet, whilst curves 15 chains and under had two extra sleepers to every 24 feet ; the system adopted with the new road with 80-lb. rails is 20-inch joints, centre to centre, and 2 feet 7 inches intermediate. 6927. But is 3 feet 1 inch the uniform thing; — how many sleepers would you have on a 24-ft. rail? Eight on a straight. 6928. Professor JVarren.] Well, if you had eight sleepers, how do you make them 2 feet 7 inches apart? Oh, it is the 80-lb. rail that is 2 feet 7 inches apart between the sleepers. 0929. Mr. Fehon ^ Tou have had considerable experience of the Baldwin engines passing over the lines, and from your personal knowledge, arid from inquiry of the men of various grades under you, do you consider that they are in every way suitable for the piece of road that i^ under your care ? Well, I have not found any difference in the amount of work necessary to keep the road in repair since they have been running. 6930. i>o you find that they take the curves very easily ? Yery easily. 6931. They do not knock them out of line at all, do they ? No. 6932. Tou have seen these engines, I suppose ? Tes ; and ridden on them several times. 6933. Tou know that the driving-wheel is flangeless ? "Tes. 6934. Do you not think that that should make it much easier on the road than an engine that has all the the wheels flanged? Well, I should say so. 6935. However, you have ridden on them, and you think that they ride smoothly and evenly, and are a suitable engine to the piece of road under your charge ? Tes. 6936. Mr. Hoi/le.] How do you account for the broken rail at Tarana ? Well, how could we account for broken rails years ago ? 6937. Well, I am asking you how you account for that rail being broken ? I cannot account for it. I do not know any man who could account for it either. Tou cannot foresee these things. 6938. Do you consider that it was broken by the Baldwin engine attached to the mail train, or by the wheels of the carriages ? It would be very hard indeed tc aay. 6930. BAT,BWIN LOCOMOTIVES raQUniY C0MMISSTO1N-— MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 221 6939. But have you any opinion as to tow it was broken ? None whatever. Mr. King. 6940. Tou are the inspector on the length where the accident occurred ? I am. ' ^ 6941. Can you tell me how many new rails you have put in between Tarana and the scene of the acci- ^^ ^^y> 18^2. dent ? Not many. 6942. Well, I have seen you there on the job, you know, putting them in ? "Well, 1 saw you there myself. 6943. How many did you put in ? Fourteen of the rails that you are alludiug to. 6944. Pourteen new rails ? No ; they are good second-class rails. 6945. But I am speaking about absolutely new rails ; — how many new rails did you put in ? None. 6916. Do you swear there were no new rails put in on that part'of the road ? Tes ; I do. 6947. Now, think again ; remember you are on your oath, and that I have been on the job ; — think again whether you have not put in any new rails since the accident? I have put in rails, but not new ones. The rails which I have had to put in are good second-hand rails, fit for main line use. 6948. They have been used before then ? They have been run on slightly before. 6949. Have you discovered many broken chairs in your length lately P Not more than usual. 6950. But have you discovered many broken chairs there lately ? Since when ? 6951. All that sort of thing is reported to you, I suppose, is it not ;— can you tell us about how many you have taken out within the last twelve months ? Some thousands. 6952. Is that not a serious matter ? Well, it all depends upon the way that the chair is broken. 6953. Have you not had more broken chairs since the Baldwin engines commenced to run than you had before any given time ? No. 6954. Are you positive of that ? Positive. 6955. You made an inspection of that line since the accident, did you not mark a number of rails in chalk to come out, because you considered them bad ? I did. 6956. When you were making your inspection, did you not find a rail with the end broken off like that [showing the witness a drawing of a Iroken raiV] ? Tes ; I did. 6957. ] s not that a very dangerous thing to have in the road ? Well, it is under the fish-plate. 6958. Tes, I am aware of that ; but the end of the rail was off all the same ; — did the ganger take it out ? Tes. 6959. When did he take it out ? I told him to renew it at once. 6960. Was it renewed the Saturday 1 was there ? No. 6961. When did he take it out ? On the Monday morning. 6962. Do you not think it was a dangerous thing to leave it in the road after you had discovered it ; I measured the rail, and there was a crack 4 inches long in it, through the centre of the holds, down the flange of the rail; do you not consider it was a most dangerous thing to leave it there, and that it would have been better to replace it there and then, even although you had to work all night to do it ? Well, it was taken out as soon as we could get another rail to the spot. 6963. That length of rail was lifted, was it not, Mr. King ? Tes. 6964. Was it lifted on new or on old ballast ? On the spot of the accident r 6965. Not on the spot of the accident merely, but the whole of the rail I am referring to ? On old ballast. 6966. And the spot of the accident, what have you done to that ; — have you lifted it at all ? No. 6967. What have you done to it ? We have put in new rails were they were broken. 6968. Have you not put in additional sleepers ? No. 6969. Was that a new or old rail, the one that was broken ? It was a second-class rail. 6970. Professor Warren.'] I do not quite understand what he means by a second-class rail? It is a rail which has been slightly used, but has no defects in it whatever. 6971. Mr. Hoyle.'] Have you any rails between the scene of the accident and the Tarana station that are very much bulged r There are a few. 6972. Were they not discovered by you since the accident — two rails, one that had been worn up to 2i inches on the top, right through from end to end, and another varying from 2i inches to 2^ inches in thickness from end to end ? Tes ; but they have been taken out. '6973. Those rails must have been in the road for some time; — do you not consider that that rail was weakened by reason of the amount of wear that it had had ? No ; the bottom piece was sound— there was no bulge in it. 6974. But would it not weaken the rail very much to have so much taken off the top of it ? Well, I have weighed rails something similar to that one, and they are only reduced in weight from 2 to 3 lb. per yard. 6975. But do you not think that a very big reduction ? No. 6976. Supposing a rail was in the road, and was reduced to the extent of 1\ lb., and was then turned over and used on the other side, do you not think that would be weakened considerably ? That has not been done since I have been in charge of that section. Kails that have been worn to that extent I take out altogether. 6977. But are there not a number of turned rails in the road ? I have not put any ot them down. _ 6978. At 118 miles 27 chains were there not several rails bent very much— lowered very much m the joints ? Slightly down in the joints. 6979. Not slightly, but very much bent ? As a rule, that is, all joints are likely to go. 6980. Mr. Fehon'.'] I would ask whether this is not degenerating into a question of railway management more than anything else. The Commission is inquiring whether the engines are suitable to the permanent- way, and the President has already ruled that the permanent-way means the road m an ordinary state ot 6981. President.'] You mean to say, Mr. Tehon, that even if the rails were very much bent, it would be merely evidence of negligence, and would not come within the scope of our inquiry ? 6982. Mr. Soyle.] May I point out, sir, that we have had a witness in the box who has given very different evidence from that which the present witness is giving now, and my object m asking these questions was to show the value that was to be attached to the previous evidence. However, it you think I had better desist, of course I will do so. 6983. President.] Well, the other members of the Commission think that you may go on. 222 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES IXQUIET COMMISSION— MINUTES 01' EVIDENCE. Mr. King. 6984. Mr. Soyle (to Witness).] Do you think that the Baldwin engines are perfectly safe, running at 40 , oC"^'^ miles an hour. I am speakinff of the straight part of the road, between where the accident took place and 19May,1892.T^^^,^^P Tes ; I do, ^ ^ ,, ,, ^ , 6985. Do you consider, also, that the Baldwin engines will do less damage to the rood than would be done by two lighter engines coupled together ? Yes. ' 6986. "Why do you come to that conclusion ? As a rule, two engines take a curve tar worse than a, heavier engine does. I experienced that with the first American engines which came out. I was a ganger at the time, and there was a great deal of complaint about them going to play the " Dickens " with the road, and, as a matter of fact, they make the road more solid. G987. Do you think that making the road more solid was necessary ? Tes. 6988. Then if you thought it was necessary in the case of the lighter American .engine to make the road more solid, how is it that you say the heavy American engines do less injury to the road ? They do not hurt the road in the slightest. 6989. Tou have just said that it was necessary to make the road more solid for the other American engines. Tou now say that these American engines, which are heavier and longer than they, are doing less damage to the road ? It is all the better. 6990. Mr. Brown:\ Tou are not answering the question. Mr. Hoyle wants you to explain your previous answer. 6991. JPresidentI\ "What Mr. Hoyle said is this, if he will allow me to put the question. Tou say that you had to consolidate your road for the other American engines which were lighter than these. Then, how is it that you make out that these engines do not hurt the road ? "When the former engines came out the complaint was that they would hurt the road ; but after they had been running on the road we found that they had done the road good by consolidating it, and that they had not injured the road at all. 6992. Mr. JBrown.'] Then for the benefit of the road all the Commissioners want to do is to get heavier engines still ? 6993. President.'] I suppose they make it settle down better. , Edward Eobins being sworn said : — Mr. 6994. I am an Inspector of the permanent-way on the New South Wales Eailways. E. Robins. (;995. Mr. Fehon.'] What is your district, Mr. Eobins ? Between Wallerawaug and Bourke, and on the <" * ^ Molonv branch. 19 May, 1892. gggg j^^^ i^^^ jjg^^g ^^^ j^^l^j ^j^g position of Inspector ? Since September, 1880 ; but not all the time on this side. Previously I was on the southern side. 6997. But you were in the railway service ? Tes. 6998. And have you had any experience prior to that ? Tes ; I was over twelve years a ganger, and altogether I have had over forty years experience in railway work. 6999. And you have always been on permanent-way work ? Well, on construction and permanent-way work. 7000. What weight- of rails have you on your length from Wallerawang to Bourke ? 80-lb. steel rails, 71i-lb. steel rails, both of them T rails, and 75-lb. "iron double headed, and 75-lb. steel ■ double-headed rails. ' 7001. And ironbark sleepers ? Tes, ironbark sleepers. 7002. What is your experience of ironbark sleepers ? Oh, they are the best sleepers I ever saw. 7003. Do you know the weight of an ironbark sleeper ? We used to call them eight to the ton when we were putting down the southern line. That was the coast ironbark. 7004. And you consider them more durable and fitter in every respect for their work than any other class of wood ? Tes. 7005. What is the standard spacing of sleepers on the straight. What have the instructions been since the Commissioners have had charge of these lines regarding the placing of sleepers centre to centre ? 1 ft. 8 in. joints, and 2 ft. 7 in. intermediate sleepers. 7006. And what was the spacing of the old sleepers ? The old sleepers were placed 2 ft. 4 in. apart at the joints, and 3 ft. 1 in. intermediate for straights and light curves. 7007. Has your road generally been relifted and ballasted to a great extent ? Tes. 7008. Tou consider it in good order ? Tes ; in very good running order. 7009. I suppose the Baldwin engines are running altogether on your length ? Tes. 7010. What has been your experience of the permanent-way since the Baldwin engines have been running. Do you find the permanent-way has been injured more by them than by other engines ? No, I do not. 7011. Have you ridden on the Baldwin engines yourself ? Ses, many times. 7012. And you consider them easy to ride on ? "Tes. 7013. And they take the curves very well? Tes, easier than some of the other engines. 7014. On the whole, you consider that the Baldwin engines are suitable to the road from Wallerawang to Bourke ? They are the best and easiest engines that lever rode upon. 7015. And as to the load they take, of course there is no question that they do a great deal more work than any other engine ? Oh, they take heavier loads. 7016. Mr. Soyle.'] Can you tell me, Mr. Eobins, what distance you have ridden on these engines ? That I cannot, because I have been so many years riding on them. 7017. Tes, but I mean on the Baldwin engines ? I have ridden some hundreds of miles since they came out here. 7018. Tes, but I mean at one stretch ? Testerday, I rode from Orange to Bathurst on a goods engine, and last Monday I rode on a passenger engine. » 7019. What speed were you going at ? About 25 miles an hour. 7020. What other engines have you ridden on ? On all classes of engines that the Government havegot. 7021. In what respect are these engines easier than the other engines ? They do not seem to jolt you ; there is not a movement in them — probably because they are so well balanced, and are fitted with springs. 7022. But would that be any indication of the effect of them upon the road ? Well, some engines are jolting up and down all the time, whilst these engines do not move you at all. 7023. Tou are the Chief Inspector from Wallerawang to Bourke ? Tes. 7024. BALDWIN lOCOMOTIVES INQTJIBT COMMISSION— MINtTTES OF ETIDENCE. 223 7024. Can you tell me how many broken rails have been taken out of the length between Tarana and the Mr. scene of the recent railway accident ? For how long ? E. Eobins. 7025. Say for the last twelve months ? About two broken, I should think. At all events, that is all ' * > that I know of. 19 May, 1892. 7026. Is it the duty of the men to report to you when they take broken rails out ? Two broken rails were taken out in addition to the two that were taken out of the line upon which the accident occurred. 7027. Tes, but ^e these matters reported to you ? No, not always. I may be away at Bourke, and then the boy m the ofEce would send it on at once to the Engineer's o'iEce. 7028. There .have been no more than two broken rails within the last twelve months, at all events except- ing those broken by the Tarana accident ? There might be, but T have heard of no more than two. 7029. Do you consider that the piece of the road between Tarana and the scene of the accident is quite safe for the Baldwin engines to run over ? Tes, it is very fair. ( 7030. Ton have heard of no complaints from your gangers as to the knocking of the road about by these engines? No. 7031. Do you know whether slow-down notices have been posted on the bridges ? Tes. 7032. Why is that ? Because there is one bridge under repair, a bridge at 120 miles 3 chains. 7033. Is that the only place where, they have slow-down notices on the bridges? No ; they have slow- down notices generally to run over bridges at the rate of 15 miles an hour. 7034. Are there not slow-down notices on other bridges beside the one under repair ? Tes ; they have 'to run 15 miles an hour only on the bridges between Sodwalls and Tarana. 7035. Can you tell me why that is ? No, I cannot say why it was. 7036. How long have you been an inspector ? Three years on Western Division and 8J years Sub- Inspector on Southern Division. 7037. Ton were not there when the Eoyal Commission on bridges sat ? No. 7038. What is the spacing of the sleepers on the road where it was not relaid, between Sodwalls and Tarana station ? Not where it was relaid, but between those points, the sleepers are placed 3 ft. 1 in. on intermediate lengths, and 2 ft. 4 in. of the joints. 7039. Are there none more than 3 ft. 1 in. apart ? Well, it is just possible that in repairing the road a fettler might knock a sleeper an inch one way or the other. 7040. Are there many broken chairs there ? There are always a good many chairs breaking. 70401. Can you tell us how many have been broken during the last twelve mouths ? No, we do not keep any account of them. 7041. And you do not think these Baldwin engines are doing any more injury to the curves than any other engine ? IN o, I do not think they do ; they seem to take the curves much easier. 7042. Tou say they take the curves much easier, but considering they are heavier engines, and much heavier on the driving-wheels, also heavier on the bogies than the other engines, can you tell me why they ride so much easier on the curves ? Because they are on such good springs. 7043. Do you know what is meant by the rigid wheel base ? Tes ; where the wheels are coupled together, I suppose. 7044. Tes ; where the wheels are coupled together, and the connection- rods and the side valves are ? Tes. 7045. Well, the Baldwin engines are much longer on the rigid wheel base than most English engines are ? Tes, but there is no flange on the middle wheel. 7046. Well, even admitting that, how do you account for these engines riding easier on the curves ? Well, they seem to ride easier, that is all. I am no engineer. 7047. Have you strutted your road on the curves ? No- ; I do not believe in strutting the curves, I beheve in curving the rails so that they will stand. 7048. Have you put in many new rails recently where the 75-lb. iron rails are ? Well, we change them as they were. We take them out and put others in. 7049. Do you know whether any orders were given to relay the road some short time ago ? How long since ? 7050. I saw the iron rails as I passed along between Sodwalls and Tarana, were not those rails put there on purpose for relaying the road ? No, the rails you are speaking of were put there by mistake. I ordered the men to put them out at 113 miles 40 chains to 114 miles 60 chains, and he laid down where you indicate, and had to shift them again. 7051. Tou say that they were put there by mistake ? Tes ; and they had to be moved. 7052. Mr. Fehon.'] Are chairs ever broken by the gangers and fettlors in driving keys ? Tes ; and the breaks are sometimes hidden under the rails. "7053. Do you know a class of engine called the Vulcan ? Tes. 7054. Are they pretty rough on the road ? Tes. 7055. Much rougher than the Baldwins ? Tes ; they are 6-wheeled coupled engine, with flanges on all the wheels. 7056. Mr. Hoyle.'] Do you say that the Vulcan engine is a 6-wheeled couple? Tes. 7057. Tou are wrong there, they are only 4-wheeled coupled engines ? Well, I think the 6-wheeled coupled engines are the heaviest on the road. 7058. Then how is it that the Baldwin engines are easier than the Vuloans — because they are G-wheeled coupled engines ? Tes, but the middle wheel is flangeless. 7059. Do you consider that the Baldwin engines are very much _ easier on the road than the Scotch Tankees ? Tes, they are. 7060. Well, as the Scotch Tankee has got a flangeless wheel, how do you account for that ? All I know is that I have been on the Scotch Tankees and they ride rougher ; the difference must be in the springs, I think. 7061. Mr. I'eJion.'] That exhausts all the country witnesses. 7062. President.] Well, we will adjourn until Wednesday, and sit on Wed^esday and Thursday and Friday. 7063. Mr. Soyle.] This question of the bridges has come up and Professor Warren has stated that he will not take any responsibility about any hridge to which his attention has not been specially directed. I would therefore direct his attention specially to the G^lenlee Bridge and ask him to be good enough to see it for himself before the Commission sends in its final report. 7064. Professor Warren.] I will do that. WUBJ^USBAY, ^^^ BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQOTEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. WIIBNIISDAT, 25 MAY, 1892. [The Gommission met in the Board-room, Colonial Secretary's Office, at ^-^0 p.m.] ^Xtsmi'. — P. E. EOGERS, Esq., Q.C, Pbesident. Peofessok WAEEEN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDER BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P. Eiehard Waring, being sworn, said : — Mr. 7065. I am Chief Inspector of Railways in the employment of the Railway Service of New South Wales. R. Waring. 7066. Mr. Fehon.] How long have you been connected with the New South Wales Eailways ? Thirty- c,^Z7~^^^I^n three years and five months. 25 May, 1892. ijqq^ -^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ experience besides that? Tes ; I had five years' experience besides th^t. 7068. And your time has been altogether taken up in connection with works on the permaneut-way ? Tes. 7069. You are well acquainted with the material used in the formation of the permanent-way on the New South Wales Eailways ? Yes. 7070. Will you give us the weight of the rails used on our lines ;— what is the standard rail now being used ? There are 80-lb. steel T rails. 7071. And what other rails? Double-headed 75-lb. rails, also 71i-lb. steel T rails, iron rails 75-lb., double-headed iron and 71i-lb. T rails. 7072. And the road is laid throughout with very little exception with ironbark sleepers ? Yes. 7073. There is no other wood in the country so fit for sleepers as ironbark ? There is none equal to it. 7074. And it will compare with any other wood in the world ? Tes. 7075. And that you have ever seen with regard to stability ? Yes. 7076. Considering the weight that thei-e is passing over these lines, do you consider that they are suffi- ciently heavy ; — the question of weight is a very important one in passing trains along the line, is it not ? It is. 7077. What is the present standard for the spacing of sleepers on all the new lines laid down ? At the, joints it is 1-ft. 8-in.', in the intermediates there are 2-ft. 7-in. centres. 7078. And what was the old road laid at ? On straights and curves of above 30 chains it was 2-ft. 4-in. at the joints, and the intermediates were 3-ft. 1-in. 7079. Is the Toad throughout well ballasted ? Yes ; thoroughly well, as a rule. 7080. Are not the New South Wales Eailways in a better condition with regard to their permanent- way than any roads you have ever known in your experience ? Yes. 7081. Mr. Brown.'] I suppose he is speaking of the whole of the railways ? 7082. Mr. Fehon.] Yes; the whole. (To Witness.) Have you noticed any particular efiect upon the road through the running of the Baldwin engines on the line ? I have observed no difference whatever. 7083. Either one way or the other ? No ; I have not noticed any difference. 7084. Do you consider the permanent- way of the New South Wales Eailways well suited for carrying such engines as the Baldwin passenger and consolidation engines ? I do. 7085. Mr. Soyle.] Have you any iron rails weighing 70 lb. on any part of the permanent-way ? We have 71i-lb. iron T rails. 7086. Iron T rails ? Yfes. 7087. Where are they ? On various portions of the line. 7088. Any on the western portion ? Yes. 7089. Can you tell us where ? At least not exactly on the western line ; there are 11 miles 52 chains on the Ei'chmond line. 7090. I do not think these engines are running on the Richmond line, are they ? No. 7091. Any outside of the Richmond and Windsor line ? No. 7092. Are there any on the Northern line — any between Newcastle and Wallangara? Yes ; there are some between Newcastle, Werris Creek, and Tamworth. 7093: Do you know the piece of road where the accident occurred recently ? Yes. 7094. Have you examined that part of the road recently ? I have. 7095. Did you examine it before the accident took place ; — was that examinatiou made at an early period before the accident happened ? Not immediately. 7096. How long before ? About nine months before. 7097. What state was it in then ? Not in the best state. 7098. Has anything been done to it since ? It has been lifted. 7099. Was it lifted within the last nine months ? Yes. 7100. Was that done with old or new ballast ? With old ballast. The old ballast is equal to the new, it is got from the same place. 7101. Do you know if the contractor made any objection to lifting it on the old ballast ? Not to my knowledge. 7102. Do you remember some alterations being made to the coal-stage at Eveleigh yard ? That was not carried out under my supervision, so that I cannot say anything about it. 7103. Well, I shall not ask you the question under those circumstances. Do you know the Scotch- Yankee engine ? Yes. 7104. And the old Consolidation engine ? Yes. 7105. Do you consider the old Consolidation engine or the Scotch-Yankee engine injure a road more than the present Baldwin engines ? I have not seen any perceptible difference between the effect of them. 7106. I place a great deal of importance on your testimony, Mr. Waring, as I have known you for a very long time now. You say you did not find any perceptible difference between the effect of the two ? I have not seen any perceptible difference. 7107. Do the present Baldwin engines have any more injurious effect upon the roads than • the engines you had formerly ? No ; I do not see any difference. 7 108. Do you consider that with the sleepers spaced 3 ft. 1^ in. the road is perfectly safe, considering the age of the rails , upon it, and considering that a number of them have been turned over, for Baldwin engines to pass over, with the weight they have on their driving-wheel? Yes ; I do. 7109. BAMWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQriBT COMMISSION— MIKTITES OF EVIDENCE. 225 109. At the speed of 40 miles an hour ? They never travel at that rate there. Mr. 110. Do you mean to say they do not travel at that rate upon the straight? Where do you get the ^- Waring. traight on that section of the road. j & — a . ^ 111. Well there are straight portions on the line. At all events, do you consider the Baldwin engines ^^May. 1892. be periectly sate on that line .'' I do. ' j o 7112. Are the broken rails taken out of the permanent way reported to you? No ; the reports do not come to me. -i r j i r 7113. Do you remember the Vulcan, the 4-wheeled couple P Yes 7114. Would that engine he more injurious on the permanent way than the old consolidation engine or the pr^Qt Baldwin engine ? The Vulcan is rougher than the Baldwin enaine. 7115. Why :' i cannot explain, I am not a mechanical engineer. But anyone riding upon them, as I have done, will experience a difference. 7116. Then, you say she is rougher on the road ? Yes. 7117. While you were Inspector did you receive any complaints from your Sub-inspectors about the Vulcan engine doing more injury than the other engines ? No. 7118. Not from your gangers or fettlers ? No. IH^' ^™-ff *°T^ Warren.y You said that there were certain 7li-lb. iron T rails on the roads ? Yes. 7120. Do the Baldwin engines run over them ? No, not at the present time. 7121. Mr. Brown.] I think the Commission will have to recall Mr. Halligan with regard to question 2195 in the minutes oi evidence. It is as follows :— o o ^ 2195. Have you made any alteration to them (the platforms) since the Baldwin engines came here? We made some alterations to the buildings, but not to the platforms. 2196. You are quite sure ? Yes. Also : — 2200. Then you say positively that no alterations were made to the Murrurundi and Parleieh plat- forms since the engines came here ? Yes, I say so. Mr. Ha,Uigan wants to alter the word "here," to "Newcastle," in both of these questions, in order to make his answer correct. Mr. Iloyle points out that in one of the books, with regard to repairs produced by the Commission, and from the Newcastle line an entry is made as follows :— " Altering platforms to give clearances for the new locomotives." For the purpose of examination,fso far as Mr. Hoyle was con- cerned, it was material Mr. Halligan should have made the statement he did, so that we think he should he recalled in order to give him an opportunity of correcting his evidence, if he wished to do so, and also of course of being cross-examined upon it. James Praser being sworn, said : — 7122. I am in the employment of the New South Wales Eailway Department, and at present occupy the Mr. position of Assistant to the Engineer-in-Chief . I have been in the Department altogether 14 years. J- I'raser. 7123. Mr. FeJion.l How long have you been altogether on the Construction and Existing Lines Depart- ' ^-"^ ment ? Fourteen years. 25 May 1892. 7124. In your experience in connection with the railways, have you found the ironbark sleeper of exceptional quality ? Yes, it is the finest that can be used. 7125. What are its principal advantages ? They are its weight, great strength, and durability. 7126. Do these sleepers hold their fastenings well ? Yes, exceedingly well. 7127. And exposure has very little effect upon, the wood ? Practically none. 7128. What is the spacing of sleepers on all roads at present renewed ? Two feet seven inch centres. 7129. And the weight of the rail used ? Eighty pounds to the yard. 7130. And the material is steel ? Yes. 7131. Is not a great portion of the Eailway now spaced with sleepers 2 ft. 1^ in. apart ? Yes, about 1,650 miles 7132. The original spacing of a large portion of the road with 711 steel rails was with sleeepers 2 ft. 7-| in. apart ? Yes. 7133. That is out of the total mileage of about 2,200 miles, 1,650 miles have sleepers spaced 2 ft. 7 in. to 2 ft. 8 in. apart ? Yes, the total* mileage is 2,179 miles, that is the exact number. 7134. Where the sleepers are 3 feet apart on the straight, are not special steps taken to strengthen the line at the curves. 7135. To what extent ? From 30-chain to 15-chain curves the sleepers are placed at 2 ft. 9 in., and on curves less than 15-chain they are spaced 2 ft. 4 centres. 7136. Do you consider the lines to be well ballasted at the present time ? Yes. 7137. Are not they in better order now than at any time previously you have known during your fourteen years experience ? Yes ; they are in very much better condition. 7138. You know the amount of ballast the Commissioners have put on during the time they have held office ? About 700,000 tons. 7139. And the greater portion of that is of what class metal? About 600,000 tons of it is blue metal. 7140. It is ballast of a high quality ? Yes ; the iinest quality. 7141. What is your experience with regard to the effect of the Baldwin engine on the permanent way ? So far as I can judge by seeing the effect on the road, I do not think that they have any detrimental eifect upon it. 7142. These engines are not detrimental to the road you say ? No ; certainly they are not. 7143. There has been evidence given here of alterations to platforms ; — were not a large number of the platforms allowed to stand as they had been originally constructed ? Yes ; a very large number. 7144. And those which were altered were such as were not up to the standard gauge laid down by Mr. Whitton ? No ; they were within that gauge. 7145. Professor Warren.'] They were narrow you mean? Yes ; they were within the standard laid down by Mr. Whitton, 7146. Mr. Fehon.] If all the platforms had been built in Mr. Whitton's gauge, no alterations would have been necessary to enable the Baldwin engines to pass ? No, sir ; that was proved in one case. On the Blayney section, from Harden to Blayney, the Baldwin engine ran through without alteration being made to any of the platforms. " 7147, 6— 2F 226 BALDWIN- LOCOMOTIVES IKQUIItT COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. 7147. One of the charges made against the Eailway Commissioners is that in consequence of the great ^^_2r!!l weight of these engines— the Baldwin passenger and Consolidation— the safety of the permanent-way is 2SMal892 ^^^^^J *° become endangered ;— what is your opinion with regard to that charge ? I do not think there is • ^' • the slightest danger of the safety of the permanent-way being endangered. n , . o, , 7148. Tou consider that the Baldwin engines are well suited to the permanent-way of this Colony ? Tes ; the permanent- way- is quite suitable to carry them safely. 7149. Mr. Hoyle.'] I understand you to say that you are Assistant to Mr. Foxlee ? Tes. 7150. Do you remember some alterations being made to the coal-stage at Eveleigh ? That was before I was appointed Assistant to the Engineer-in-Chief. 7151. But you were in the Department at the time? Tes ; as Divisional Engineer at Groulburn. 7152. Tou say you consider the permanent way to be suitable to carry the Baldwin engines— that, I suppose, is with the 80-lb. steel rail, which I myself consider perfectly safp for carrying these engines— but, taking a 75-lb. iron, and a 75-lb. and 71-lb. steel rails, do you consider that they are perfectly safe for carrying a Baldwin engine travelling at the rate of 40 miles an hour ? Tes, 7153. Would it be equally safe with 75-lb. and 71,-lb. iron rails with sleepers spaced 3 feet 1| inches apart ? There are none spaced so. 7L54. I am speaking of the iron rail ; — do you say there are none of them spaced at that distance ? Tes, now I think of it, I believe there are — 7li-lb. iron rails aad part of them are supported by sleepers 3 ft. IJ in. apart. 7155. Do you consider a Baldwin engine passing over that line perfectly safe ? Tes. 7J,56. Mr. JFeJion.] They are not running on that part of the road at all. 7157. Mr. Srown.'] Unfortunately our Commission uses the words " Unsuitable for the permanent-way of the New South Wales Railways," and although they may not be running along the line in that locality, still they may be required to do so at some future time, and we have to take into consideration whether they are suitable for doing so or not. 7158. Professor Warren.'] At the same time it is quite right for Mr. Eehon to point out that they are not running in that locality. 7159. Mr. Hot/le.'] They were running on express duty at Newcastle. 7160. Mr. JBrown.J But they are not running now. 7161. Mr. Soyle.l But they might be used for that purpose. 7162j Mr. Brown.'] Certainly, and therefore for that reason the Commission has not shut out this evidence. 7163. Mr. Moyle.] Do you consider that they are perfectly safe, and that they do not knock the road about ? They certainly do not knock the road about. 7164. Professor Warren.] Tou asked him if the 71|-lb. rails with sleepers 3 ft. 1\ in. apart were safe. I do not think he answered that. 7165. Witness.] Tes ; I think they are perfectly safe. 7166. Mr. Soyle.] Eunning at a speed of 40 miles an hour ? They are not running at a speed of 40 miles an hour. 7167. Mr. Brown.] I should think the Commissioners, where the sleepers were spaced at that distance, would take the necessary precautions for the public safety by slowing down the speed. 7l67|-. Mr. Soyle.] Well, this road that is perfectly safe, does it keep in good order ? Tes ; very good order. 7168. Is there any more trouble with it than with the road where the 80-lb. steel rail is used ? No ; no more where the road is well boxed up and ballasted. 7169. And why do you put in an 80-lb. rail ? For economy. 7170. Do you consider, then, that a 71i-lb. iron rail that has been run upon, and which evidence_has been brought to show was reduced by 1^^ lb. by wear and tear, and then turned over, is safe for these engines to run upon ? The 71i-lb. iron T rail is never turned. 7171. I am referring to the 75-lb. double-headed iron rail. This rail, it has been shown, has lost 1^- lb. through wear, and has then been turned over. Do you consider that rail would then be safe ? Tes ; I think so. I think it would still be safe. 7172. Professor Warren.] Tou say that a 71i-lb. iron T rail, supported by 3-ft. l^-in. sleepers, would be safe for the Baldwin engine to run over ? Tes. , 7173. Would you tell us the minimum weight of rail that could be used for carrying a Baldwin engine — I mean a T rail, with the sleepers 3 feet If inches apart. What should be the minimum weight of such a rail to carry a Baldwin engine with safety ? I could not say. I think a rail of 69 lb. iron would carry it with safety. 7174. If you were making calculations, you would not make them on the basis of treating the rail as a fixed beam ; — would you calculate the rail, considering it as a beam ? Tes ; I think you could calculate it that way. 7175. Would you place any reliance on such a calculation ? Well, you would not get really good results. Mr. W. T. Eoxlee recalled :- Mr. 7176. Mr. Felion.] Are you a member of the Institute ot Civil Engineers ? Tes. ■W. T. Foxlee. 7177. How many years have you been employed in connection with railway construction and working ? '■^'^-^^^'^ About twenty-five years. 25 May, 1892. 7^73 Are you thoroughly acquainted with the mode of construction and maintenance adopted by the principal English railway companies ? Tes. 7179. It has been stated that in consequence of the extra width of the Baldwin engines or their great length the platforms in various parts of our lines have had to be altered, is that correct ? No ; they have been altered to bring them back to the standard gauge, that is to say those which were out of gauge have , been brought into gauge. 7180. Is it not a fact that as far back as 1879 reports were made that certain engines, then placed upon the lines, could not pass the structures then existing ? Tes ; that is a fact. 7181. President.] What is a fact ? 7182. Mr. JBeJion.] That as far back as 1879 objections were made to certain platforms being too near the rails. (To AVitness.) Do you produce a paper in confirmation of this statement ? I do. [Pap-r produced and put in.] 7183. BALDWIN lOCOMOTlTES IlfQTJIET COMMISSION— MmUTES OP EVIDENCE. 227 7183. To enable the engines referred to therein to run on the Western line, were not a number oi Mr. structures altered and m many instances lines slewed to admit them to pass ? Yes ^* ^- ^°^Be. 7184. Was not the width of_ those engines over the cyclinders slightly in excess of the width over the n/TT^^^ ■ cyclmders which the Baldwin engines, now under discussion, were ordered to be? Tes ; they were ^^^^y-^^^^- slightly over the width of the Baldwin engines— the new Baldwin engines ^^^5 J}l^- Y°'^^f,, rails m connection with the permanent-way had been kept to the gauge adopted by Mr. Whitton, the late Engmeer-in-Chief for Construction, would it have been necessary for the Eailway Commissioners to have spent any money whatever to admit of the running of the Baldwin engines over the whole of the line P Not a penny. 7186. What is^the total amount of money that has been expended to enable the' engines to pass over all the mam lines and many of the branches ? A little over £3,000. 7187. Is this expenditure not a very small one, as compared with the great advantages gained by the change? Undoubtedly. ° o o j 7188. Is it not a fact that the question of making these alterations had been prominently before the Eailw^ Commissioners long, before the Baldwin engines were ordered ? Tes. When the Commissioners took oftce, the whole question was taken in hand, and instructions were given for the matter to be gone into, and measurements taken, m order to find out exactly which of the structures were out of gauge. 7189. bo as to bring them all to a uniform gauge ? X es. 7190. Mr. Brown.] Whose fault was it, if there was a uniform standard gauge laid down by Mr. Whitton that. this otherwise unnecessary work had to be done ? 7mi. Mr. Fehon.] A great many of the platforms were taken over from the contractors before they were fimshed by them, the people being anxious to have the platforms so as to use them. They were taken over by the Construction Branch, and built by the Existing Lines Branch under Mr. Cowdery. 7m. Mr. Brown.] But still the uniform gauge was in existence, and some one should have seen to it that the platforms were made in conformity with it. 7192. Mr. Fehon.] Oh, undoubtedly. The platforms varied from 8 inches to li inches out of gauge. 7193. Mr.Foxlee.] The return I have put in will show that the platforms varied and were at all sorts of distances from the rails. 7194. Mr. Brown.] Then it is plain someone blundered ? Tes. 7195. Mr. Fehon.] It has been stated that in consequence of the great weight of these engines— the Baldwin passenger and Consolidation— the safety of the permanent-way is likely to become endangered, our standard rail being 7li-lb. per yard, whereas the Baldwin engines were designed for an 80-lb. rail. Did not the Commissioners immediately after taking oifice adopt as a standard rail for the New South Wales railways a steel rail weighing 80-lb. to the yard ? Tes. 7196. So that 714 -lb. to the yard is not oilr standard of rail ? No. 7197. And do you consider that the permanent-way is likely to be injured by these engines running over it ? Not in the least. 7198. Atthe present time are there not more than 200 miles of road laid with the 80-lb. steel rails ? Tes. 7199. That is since the Commissioners took office ? Tes ; there are over 200 miles laid with the 80-lb. steel rail, and some 70 miles with the 71-i--lb. steel rail, making a total of 270 miles of steel rails. 7200. And that is since the present Commissioners took ofSce ? Tes. 7201. What is the standard spacing of the sleepers adopted by the present Commissioners ? Two feet 7 inches from centre to centre on the straight. 7202. President.] And the same on the curves ? Tes. 7203. Mr. FeJion.] So far as the spacing between the sleepers is concerned there is no difference made between the straight and the curves ? No. 7204. What are the dimensions of the sleepers now used ? Nine feet long, 10 inches wide, 5 inches thick. 7205. Are they not exceedingly heavy compared with the sleepers used in other parts of the world ? Tes ; we take them to average 252 lb., whereas the average weight of the Baltic timber creosoted sleeper of similar dimensions to our own used on the English railways is 160 lb. 7206. What is the lightest rail used on the western line ? On the main western line ? 7207. Tes ? Seventy-one lb. iron and 71i lb. steel. 7208. In regard to the weight of rail ; — when a rail is about 70 lb. in weight per yard, is it not a question of economy rather than security to add to its weight ? Tes ; we take that as our practice now. Anything above 70 lb. we regard as being used for reasons of economy. 7209. That is to say, that you would consider a steel rail 70 lb. to the yard on ironbark sleepers, spaced as under the present standard, capable of bearing any weight that may be placed on the driving-wheels of the engines that are running upon the New South Wales railways ? Oh, yes ; thoroughly so. 7210. And even capable of carrying a greater weight ? Tes. 7211. Although the Baldwin engines are much heavier than other engines in use upon the lines, does not the distribution of weight over a greater number of wheels do away with any disadvantages arising from extra weight ? Tes ; we do not find these engines, though they have a somewhat heavier weight on their axles, tell injuriously upon the road at all. 7212. And do you not consider them easy and flexible upon the road — are they not easy running engines ? Tes ; all the reports I get tend that way, and from my own observation I have no doubt that they are , quite as easy, if not easier, than the heavy engines previously used on the lines. 7213. Does not this, therefore, even considering the extra weight, make them much more easy upon the lines when passing round curves. I refer more particularly to their flexibility ? Tes ; and the absence of a flange on the driving-wheels also helps to ease them when running round the curves. 7214. "You have been over the lines recently ? Tes. 7215. What is your opinion of the permanent-way of the New South Wales railways from end to end ? Speaking generally, it is in very good order. 7216. Do you consider the permaneut-way of the New South Wales railways equal to a large portion of the roads of the English railways ? Quite, and a considerable portion is better. 7217. What is the prevailing practice in England with regard to spacing of sleepers ? Three feet apart centres. 7218. What length of the railways of New South Wales at the present time have the sleepers spaced 2ft. 7in. and 2ft. 8 in. apart? About 1,650 miles. 7219. Is there not an enormous advantage gained upon our railways over the English by having our very hard ironbark sleepers ? Certainly. 7220. ^■^^ BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIEX COMMISSION — MINUTES OF- EVIDENCE. w ri?^^' , ^220. I think you stated the class of wood in use in Eneland on the railways ? Yes ; it is soft Baltic ^•^•^°4«e- timber.' 25mI^"^2 ^^^■'- -^"^^^ because of the softness of the wood, and to ensure the rail being safely secured upon the ^' ' sleepers, what course is taken by these Companies ? To distribute the weight; a broad cast-iron chair is used, with four fastenings. That is the usual practice. . 7222. In consequence of the sleepers being soft, chairs are used more frequently in England to keep the rails in their place than where they have solid hardwood sleepers, such as ironbark ? Tes. 7223. President.'] Do they not have four fastenings to the chairs here? No; not in the case of the rails, but there is an extra spike put in in the case of sharp curves. 7224. I was only asking on account of something I saw on a suburban line ; I arrived at my station too early this morning, and during the time I was waiting I looked at the chairs holding the rails on the line, and I certainly saw four holes for fastening them ? Oh, yes ; that is so in the case of the bull-headed rails which we have used on the suburban line' where chains are of course used. As a matter of fact, although there is provision made in the chairs for four fastenings, we only find two to be necessary on account of the hardness of our sleepers. They (the fastenings) are placed diagonally, so that when the holes become worn we can change them to the other pair. 7225. Mr. FehonP^ But in England, in consequence of the soft wood they use as sleepers there they have to utilise the four fastenings? Tes. 7226. Is not the security of the fastenings an exceedingly important element in the keeping of a safe road for the engines to pass over ? Tes ; undoubtedly. 7227. The Chief Commissioner stated that the total weight of permanent way employed to the mile of road was a most important element in showing the stability of the line ; is that so in your opinion ? Tes. 7228. That is, the heavier sleepers make the better road ? Tes ; and it is most important with regard to durability; 7229. Have you in your possession any facts bearing upon this point ? Tes ; I have the- details of the weights of four different types of permanent way in use upon these railways per mile with me.. Shall I quote the -weights for each ? They are as follows : — 75-lb. D.H. iron Sleepers, 3-ft. centres : — lb. tons owt. qr. lb. Eails, 1,760 X 75 lb. X 2 =264,000 Eish-plates (average), 940 X lOi lb — 9,870 Eish-bolts, 1,880 X 20i oz = 2,409 Chairs and spikes, 3,520 X 29| lb =103,810 Keys, 3,520 X l-,\- lb. = 37,400 Sleepers, 1,760 X 252 lb =443,520 891,039 = 384 7 3 11 7li-lb. T steel ; 8 ft. sleepers ; 2 ft. 7 J- in. and 2 ft. 8 in. centres : — • lb. tons 6wt. qr. lb. Eails, 1,760 X 71i lb. X 2 =251,680 Fish-plates (average), 940 X lOi lb = 9,870 Eish- bolts, 1,880 x 20* oz = 2,409 "Wood screws, 4,935 x 14i oz = 4,395 Spikes, 3,996 x 14^ oz. ^ 3,621 Sleepers, 2,000 X 180 lb ^260,003 631,975 = 282 2 2 15 If laid with sleepers 9 ft. long, 10 in. x '5 in ; 2 ft. 7i in. and 2 ft. 8 in. centres :- Eails, 1,760 x 71 lb. x 2 Eish-plates, 940 X lOi lb. Eish-bolts, 1,880 x 204 oz. Wood, screws, 4,935 x 14J oz. Spikes, 3,996 x 14| oz. Sleepers, 2,000 x 252 lb. lb. tons cwt. qr. lb. 251,680 9,870 ' 2,409 4,395 504,000 775,975 = 340 8 1 11 80-lb. T steel. Sleepers, 2 ft. 7 in. centres. Eails, 1,790 X 80 lb. x 2 = 281,600 Eish-plates, 704 X lOi lb = 7,392 Eish-bolts, 1,408 X 20i oz = 1,804 "Wood screws, 4,928 X 14i oz = 4,389 Spikes, 4,224 X 144 oz = 3,828 Sleepers, 2,112 x 252 = 532,224 tons owt. qr. lb. 831,237 = 371 1 3 1 L. and N-W-E., 81-lb. bull-headed steel. Sleepers, 3 ft. centre. tons cwt. qr. lb. Eails, 1,760 X 84 1b. x 2 = 295,680 Eish-plates, 704 x 164 lb. Eish-bolts, 1,408 x 23| oz. Chairs, 3,520 x 45 lb. ... Spikes, 7,040 x If lb. ... Screws, 7,040 X li lb.... Keys, 3,520 x 1ft lb. ... Sleepers, 1,760 X 160 ... 11,616 2,068 158,400 8,800 8,800 3,740 281,600 770,704 = 344 1 1 4 These BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES Ils'QUIET COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 229 These weights have been gone into very carefully, and, I think, can be taken as accurate. Mr. 7230. On the old sections of the line where the sleepers were originally placed 3 ft. centre to centre on ^- T.Foxlee.- the straight, is it a fact that the road in the curves is strengthened ? Yes, on curves of from 15 to 30 „-0"^0' chains radius they were placed 2 ft. 9 in. apart, centre to centre, and on curves of 15 chains and under ^''^^y- '■^^^■ they were placed 2 ft. 4i in. apart, centre to centre. 7281. What is the amount of steel road that the Commissioners have put into the lines since coming into ofEce ? About 270 miles laid with 80-lb; and 71i-lb. steel rails. 7232. Do you know the amount, of ballast which has been used? Seven hundred thousand tons, I believe. 7233. What was the character of that ballast ? Basalt, and diorite, and slag— the very best. 7234. Of an exceedingly hard nature, so that it would last for many years ? Tes. 7235. What amount of improvement has been made on the line between Granville and Bathurst since the Commissioners came into office ? About 45 miles of road have been relaid, and about 60 miles re- ballasted, and about 81 miles lifted and partially re-ballasted. 7236. Are there still some iron rails on the Western line ? Tes, there are ; but we hope to get them all out of the main road by the end of the year, and to replace them all by steel. 7237. In relaying, if any rail is taken out, and is still fit for further use, is it utilised ? Yes ; we use them for sidings mainly, instead of employing new material. 7238. What is the weight of rail in use on the Western line ? The weights are 71|-lb. steel, 75-lb. iron and steel, and 80-lb. steel rails. 7239. With your knowledge of the railways of this Colony, are you of opinion that the permanent-way of New South Wales is suitable for the Baldwin engines to run on ? Tes ; I am. 7240. Certain bridges have been referred to in the course of this inquiry, namely, at Solitary Creek and WoUondilly Eiver, have plans been under consideration for strengthening these bridges, and is the work about to be commenced ? Tes ; we have already prepared plans for strengthening these bridges, and I would like to show the plans to Professor Warren. [Witness here produced the plans referred to, and pointed out to the Commissioners the proposed alterations.'] In the Eeport of the Eoyal Commission on the Railway Bridges of the Colony issued some years ago it was pointed out that certain of the structures, among them the bridges over Solitary Creek and the Wollondilly were weak, and in conse- quence of that wo are taking steps to strengthen them. This is how we propose to do it : We purpose putting in a centre girder under the existing bridges, and by that means we shall not only strengthen the cross-girders, which are unduly strained, but we shall relieve the main girders, which are also strained above the standard limit. Arrangements are being made for this work to be carried out at once, and in the meantime every precaution is being taken to render these bridges perfectly secure for the traffic. 7241-2. President.'] Tou mean, I suppose, by slackening the speed of the trains passing over them ? Tes. 7243. Professor 'Warren^ Tou are not propping the bridge, I suppose ? Oh, dear no, I should be very sorry to allow a bridge to fall into such a condition that it would require propping. 7244. President^ So I understand that until you have carried out these alterations you slacken speed in going over the bridges ? Tes. '7245. And you are going to put the bridge in such a condition that ultimately you will not need to trouble about checking the speed of the trains passing over it ? Tes. We do not say that there in any risk now, but we say that the iron is being unduly fatigued, and we think it desirable therefore to strengthen the bridges. 7246. Professor Warren.] But you do not mean that by slackening speed you relieve the bridge of stress ? Tes, to some extent. 7247. Tou have taken deflections, I suppose ? Tes. 7248. Well, do you find any difference in the deflection between full and slow speed ? Tes, with full speed the deflection is rather more than at a low speed. 7249. How much, 10 per cent. ? I do not remember exactly but I know that it was rather more in the ease under consideration. ?250. Then you suppose that the stress would be proportionate to the strain, but that the slowing down would reduce it a little ? Yes. We think it is perfectly safe, but at the same time we believe it desirable to adopt the recommendation of the Royal Commission that I have previously referred to. 7251. After the recommendation of the Eoyal Commission you say you determined to strengthen them in some way? Tes. 7252. Mr. Pehon.] Do you know how long it is since the project of strengthening these bridges was first in contemplation ? It was under consideration before the introduction of the Baldwin engines. The matter was looked into, but on account of the pressure of work it was not found possible to carry out until now. 7253. President.] What did you say ? 7254. Mr. Pehon.] I asked how long this work had been in contemplation, and Mr. Poxlee says long before the Baldwin engine was thought of instructions were given with regard to it. \_Plan of Solitary Creeh Bridge produced, and the proposed alterations were pointed out hy the witness.] 7255. Pending the strengthening of these bridges being carried out, have proper steps been taken to ensure the safety of the traffic passing over them ? Tes, as I have said before, the speed has been lowered and the bridges are carefully inspected. 7256. And although these matters are contemplated, do not you consider that at the present time the bridge has a very large margin indeed on the side of strength as compared with any possibility of risk ? Tes ; there is a good margin if you took the Board of Trade regulations — that is, 5 tons in tension and 4 compression — it would be quite safe. 7257i And is that your usual practice ? Tes, generally. 7258. I am very sorry to hear it. 7259. Mr. Fehon.] In that reduced rate of speed would you consider this bridge to be perfectly safe to carry traffic ? Tes. 7260. President.] What do you mean by factor of safety ;— is it the point beyond which it would be unwise to go ? 7261. Witness.] It is the ratio that the actual strain bears to the ultimate strength, it may be a fourth or a fifth of the ultimate strength, and that we call the factor of safety. 7262. 230 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES IHQriET COMMISSION — MINTTTES OF ETIBENCE. Mr. 7262. Mr.Fehon^ "What is the lenKtH of the span on the Solitary Creek Bridge? Sixty feet on ^- T- ^°^1««- the skew. 25mI^^2 '^^^^- With two engines coupled together, you would have two engines on together? No; we would ^' ' only get one engine on and its tender at the same time. i. i. v 7264. Do you consider that everything necessary has been done for the safe working of the lines, and that the Baldwin engines run with perfect safety on the roads throughout ? I do. 7265. And that the road is suitable for the engines in every respect. 7266. Mr. Hoyle.] Could you tell me the total mileage of the railways in New South Wales ? It is about 2,200 miles. j o -nr 7267. So that we have about how many miles of rails with less weight of rail than 80 lb. to the yard ? We have rather less than 2,000 miles. 7268. With a lighter rail than an 80-lb. rail? Tes. 7269. Ton have just stated that it is the intention of the department to take out all the iron rails ? Tes. 7270. Why take'them out if they are perfectly safe as you have stated, you say that the road is good and safe — why take them out until they are worn out ? Because it is desirable to do so, inasmuch as they are getting to the end of their life, and inasmuch as we cannot remove all the iron rails by a stroke of the pen, it is necessary to commence before they are actually worn out, in order to have them all removed by the time that they are worn out ; in addition to that where you have iron roads with rails wearing out it is necessary to get other rails for repairing purposes^ and with that object we are taking out some of the rails that are not actually worn out. 7271-2. Tou say that you are using the 80'-lb. steel rail for purposes of economy, how do you reconcile this with the fact that you are taking out a number of rails that are not worn out ? Because there is a limit to the life of iron rails, and we cannot wait till they are all worn out before we replace them. 7273. Has that limit been reached ? No, not yet, but by the time they are taken out it will have been reached, and there are rails which it is desirable to replace from time to time, and these we are taking out ; but if you ask me if the whole of these rails should be taken out now, I say no. We do not, in relaying, use a new rail to replace an old one, but we relay a whole length, and in that way we recover a certain number of rails useful for repairs on portions of a road that we do not .intend to relay. 7274. Tou say that the road is in good order, and perfectly safe, and now you say that you are going to remove all these iron rails ; I ask you is it because the limit has been reached to which these iron rails go ? There are certain iron rails which it is desirable for us to remove now, and in doing so we must also remove others which are not worn out, because it is not desirable to repair an old road with new rails. 7275. Well, when will the limit be reached ? By the time the whole of these rails are taken out the bulk of them will have reached their limit. 7276. I think we must conclude from that that we have unsafe rails on the road ? Not at all. 7277-8. Fresident.'] How do you tell when the rails have reached their limit of safety ; is there a certain rule by which you are guided ? There is no hard-and-fast rule laid down — we tell by inspection. Where they are sufficiently worn to warrant it we remove them. 7279. Then, are there a sufficient number worn to warrant the removal of these rails at once? I do not, say that ; we have made arrangements for relaying certain portions of the road, and by the time that ■relaying is completed it will probably be time to remove these rails. 7280. Mr. Brown.'] We might ask him if the limit of safety will depend upon whether the Commissioners can get the money to take the rails out or not. 7281. I'resident.'] Tou say you are going to take cut a lot of these rails ; is your reason for doing so that the rails have reached their limit of safety ; have they reached it, or will they have reached it by the time you mention ? They will have. 7282-3. What do you mean by that ? We are carrying out the change now, and by the time we get to certain sections it will be necessary to take these rails out — that is, calculating at the rate we are going now. 7284. Mr. Brown.'] In the ordinary course of events, if you had money' would you not take many of these rails out ? Tes. 7285. Professor TVarren.] Tou say it is economical to take them out, because you put in a larger rail? Tes ; and because I want the old rails that I take out for use for repairs and sidings. 7286. Mr. Hoyle.] Eelative to the bridges, you say that nothing has been done to Solitary Creek Bridge; which will answer for the lot, since the report of the Eoyal Commission was issued ; will you give us your reason why this bridge was not strengthened in accordance with the recommendation of the Commission, I understood you to say that the reason was the great quantity of other work that had to be done had delayed this being put in hand, do you not think that work which is in such a condition as to require the slowing-down of an engine passing over it should be gone on with at once ? Well, there were many important works to be done, and we took the most important ones first. I know bridges in England over which trains are slowed-down for the same reason that I have stated here. 7287. When was it that you decided to strengthen these bridges ? I cannot tell you the exact date, but it was before the introduction of the Baldivin engines. 7288. Tou are now making arrangements speedily to have this work done ? Tes ; plans are being got out for the work. 7289. Tou said that the platforms were altered purely for the purpose of putting them in gauge ? TeS. 7290. This [producing a book] is the cost-book from Newcastle, showing that the alterations made at certain platforms— I will read them to you :— June 25th, 1891, D.E. 91-1,048, E.E. 91, Hatnilton to 51 North Coast — altering platform to give clearance for new locomotives : — Date of completion, 14th Sep- tember, 1891 ; wages, £45 16s. lid. And again— June 25th, 1891, D.E., 91-1,048, Newcastle to Warraii- garra — altering platform to give clearance for new locomotives : — Completed, 14th September, 1891 ; wages, £1,092 3s. 2d. ; stores, £378 3s. 8d. And again— June 25th, 1891, D.E, 91-1,048, Newcastle and Wallerawang — slewing roads to give clearance for new locomotives— Completed 14th September, 1891 ; wages, £47 9s. 2d. ; stores, £2 8s. 7d. Can you explain these entries ? I explain as I have before explained, that since the Commissioners took office, instructions were given to ascertain to what extent th^ platforms on the lines were out of gauge, and that being done, directions were issued to bring them to Mr* Whitton's standard gauge, and the platforms to which you have referred are portions of the structures which were so brought to gauge ; the advent of the Baldwin engines undoubtedly accelerated these alterations ; I have hothing to do with the way they were entered in the book. 7291. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIYJSS INQtriET COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 231 7291. Fresidenf.] Who entered them ? The Divisional Engineer would probably be the person. Mr. 7292. Mr. Boyle.'] I notice that in this book the Engineer-iii-Ohief 's minute of 1891 is quoted, and I W- T- VQ%lee. presume that would be done from your instructions from the Head office ? No doubt it would be done „77r'^'\~^ from instructions received from the head office. ^^^> ^^^^• 7293. Will you produce that minute ? Tes ; I will have it produced. 7294. Now, if this work was only done to bring the platforms into gauge, why did you charge it in the way I have stated ;— why did you not charge it under the head of bringing the road to gauge, and nat to the Baldwin engines ? That is a matter that rests with the Divisional Engineer ;— the object was to enable the Baldwin engines and other engines of similar dimensions to run over the line without let or hindrance. 7295. The Divisional Engineer stated that nothing had been done since January, 1891, and any altera- tions that had been made had nothing to do with the Baldwin engines, but here we see that the work was charged directly to those engines. 7296. Mr. Brown.'] Tou can recall the witness, Mr. Hoyle, but you cannot connect Mr. Eoxlee with that 8tateme;it. I do not see how you can make this witness responsible for another person's statement. 7297. Professor Warren.] Have you got the minute referred to by Mr. Hoyle ? No ; I have not got it. 7298. Mr. Sqyle.] The number of the minute is 1,048, 1891. 7299. Mr. Broton.] You will produce that minute, Mr. Fehon? 7300. Mr. Hoylei] Some considerable alterations wore made at tlie Eveleigh coal-stage ; — were those alterations made in order to give clearance to the cab of the Baldwin engines or not r* Tes ; the Baldwin engines and other engines of similar dimensions. 7301. Is it not a fact that the Baldwin engine could not have got to the coal stage if these alterations had not been made ? Tes ; nor could any other engine of similar dimensions have done so. 7302. Then how did you coal the other engines, which you say were wider ? I cannot answer that question. Tou had better ask the Chief Mechanical Engineer. ■ 7303. I would like to recall Mr. Eobinson, of the Locomotive Department, for the same reason that I wish to recall Mr. Halligan, namely, that he has given very contradictory evidence— his report to the department is contrary to the evidence which he has given. 7304. President.] Very well, he will be recalled. 7305. Mr. Soyle.] Will you tell us when the alterations to the coal stage at Eveleigh were made ? I think some time last year ; but I am not quite certain. 7306. Have you any experience of the spacing of sleepers in England ? Tes. 7307. Can you tell us of any railway where the spacing of sleepers is greater than 3 feet — (say) 3 ft. 1 in. ? Speaking generally, the spacing is about 3 feet, but I cannot say accurately. Speaking generally, what I have said represents the fact. 7308. Tou know the rail on the Great Western line, the 62 lb.— a bridge rail — is that on a longitudinal sleeper or not ? A bridge rail is, of course, on longitudinal sleepers. The new rails they are putting down are double-headed. 7309. What is their weight ? I am not quite sure ; but I think it is less than 80 lb. per yard. However, I am not certain. 7310. But a 62-lb. bridge rail used on the G-reat Western line is, you say, carried on longitudinal sleepers? Tes. 7311. Would a bridge rail supported in that way be as strong, and. carry as great a weight, and be as solid as an 80-lb. rail with sleepers spaced 3 feet apart ? I do not think so. 7312. Why ? Because a light rail is more flexible, and, -despite your timber, it would have a tendency to bend with the weight passing over it. The heavier your rail the more rigid it is. 7313. I have the authority of Mr. Eindlay, the manager of the Great Western, for saying that a longi- tudiual sleeper is about equal to 10 lb. on the rail. 7314. Professor TVarren.] But Mr. Eindlay is not an engineer. 7315. Mr. Hoyle.] I shall put in evidence to-morrow to show that English railways have their sleepers more closely spaced. (To Witness.) How was the Glenlee Bridge tested ; — what was the weight on the bridge when the test was made ? A Baldwin consolidation engine. 7316. Only one engine ? Tes ; and, I think, two cars. 7317. Professor Warren.] Tou put the heaviest load you could on, and I suppose that was a Baldwin engine ? Tes. 7318. The 62-lb. rail was used by the Great Western Eailway Company was carried on longitudinal sleepers, was it not ? The bridge rail was. 7819. Would not the bridge rail, carried on longitudinal sleepers, be as strong and carry as great a weight as an 80-lb. rail with sleepers placed 3 feet apart ? I do not think so. 7320. Can you say why? Because the lighter rail is more flexible than the heavier rail, and, in spite of your timber, the thing would bend with the weight passing over it. The heavier the rail the more rigid it is. 7321. I have not the authority with me, but I have it at home, and can bring it to-morrow ; but Mr, Finlay, of the London and North- Western Eailway Company, states that the longitudinal sleeper adds strength equal to about 10 per cent, of the rail. 7322. Professor Warren.] Mr. Eindlay is not an engineer. 7323. Mr. Hoyle.] No ; but he makes the statement upon the authority of Mr. Thornhill, who has calculated the thing out. 7324. Professor Warren.] Well, he is an engineer. 7325. Mr. Hoyle (to Witness) .] Will you tell us how the Glenlee Bridge was tested ;— what was the weight on the bridge when the tests were made ? A Baldwin consolidation engine was run on to the bridge for the purpose of making the test. 7826. Only one engine ? One engine and, I think, two cars. 7327. But is it not customary when testing bridges to put a greater weight upon them than the weight that they are likely to have to carry ? Tes ; but it is not intended to couple two Baldwin engines together in any portion of these roads, so that no bridge is likely to have to carry them, and in the case of the Glenlee Bridge only the engine could rest upon an opening at one time. 7328, Tes ; but when you are taking a test of a bridge of that kind you would usually have more than two carriages, would you not ;— is it not customary when testing a bridge to put a live and dead load upon it ? It is customary to put the heaviest rolling load upon it. 232 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQTJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES Or ETIDENCB. _ _'^- 7329. Well, then, inasmucli as that was not done in this case, do you consider that the test was a fair • • ^°^le6. Qjjg p -^g p^^ ^jjg heaviest load upon the span that it could possibly have to carry, and that is a Baldwin 25 MavTRQ? consolidation engine. y, io»^. ^33Q_ ^^^ .^ ^^^ j^^g^j^ ^^ ^^^ ^p^^ p rp^e^^y.one feet. 7331. What is the factor of safety allowed by you for the dead load on your bridges ? We took the whole thing together in the Grlenlee Bridge, and we made a f actoi of safety at about 7. 7332. And do you consider that a factor of safety of 7 for a live and a dead load is perfectly safe ? Yes ; I do. 7333. Is that the same for iron bridges ? It is lower for iron bridges. 7334. What would be your factor of safety in the case of iron bridges ? Tour or 5. 7335. I see Professor Eankin states here that in timber bridges the dead load should be from 4 to 5, and the live load from 8 to 10 ; — do you consider that a factor of safety of from 8 to 10 for a live load is excessive ? I told you what our usual practice is with timber such as we have in this country, and that I consider suiScient. 7336. Do you know what is the custom in the railroads of America — Mr. Eddy stated in his evidence the other day that some of the trains run from 50 to 70 miles an hour over a 67-lb. steel jail;— do you know what the spacing of the sleepers is in that case?. I am not very well acquainted with the railways of America. 7337. Mr. FeJwn.] It will, perhaps, be as well if Mr. iloyle, in the first place, asks Mr. Toxlee if he has been in America. 7338. Witness:] No ; I have not. 7339. Mr. Hoyle.l Well, Mr. Eddy in the course of his evidence stated a great many facts in regard to American railways, but I might as well have asked him if he had ever been in America. 7340. Mr. Fehon.'] Oh, yes ; he has been in America. 7341. Mr. Soyle.] Well, he has never been on the line that I am alluding to. 7342. Professor Warren.'] Mr. Eddy will probably give evidence again, and you will then have an opportunity of asking him these questions. 7343. Mr. Iloyle (to Witness).] Do you not consider, taking a 71-lb. rail for example, that sleepers placed at 2 feet 9 inches apart, would make the rail infinitely stronger than a rail of the same weight with sleepers placed 3 feet 1 inch apart would be ? Oh, yes ; I daresay it would. 7344. Can you tell us what is the difference in strength between iron and steel in rails ? You may take 50 per cent, in the case of steel over iron. 7345. That is to say that steel is half as strong again as iron ? I should say so, taking it roundly. 7346. Professor Warren.] You have spent considerable sums of money in relaying various parts of the road with 80-lb. rails ? We have. 7847. Do you think that the spacing of 1 foot 8 inches in the joint will be sufScient to prevent the joints going down, as a result of the pressure of the driving-wheel ? You have to take into consideration the length of the fish-plate. 7348. Yes, but your fish-plate is a common fish-plate ? Yes. 7349. Well, if you look at this sketch you will see an angle fish-plate, which I daresay you are familiar with. Is it not customary on the English railways to use angle fish-plates ? Speaking generally, English rails are double-headed rails. 7350. Yes ; but even on a double-headed rail, is it not the custom to use angle fish-plates ? Eish-plates, with a lip to them. 7351. We will take a T rail for example. Is it not customary in America to use angle fish-plates with T. rails ? They ha,ve angle fish-plates on some of the roads there, I believe. 7352. Take the London and North-western Eailway, in England, for example. You have a double- headed or a bull-headed rail there, but they are not content with the common fish-plate — they want some- thing stronger ? A large proportion of the roads in England are laid with a fish-plate which do not pass under the rails, but as the North Western Company are relaying their main road, they are, I believe, putting in fish-plates that have clips. 7353. WeU, do you not think that you ought to have done so here ? No ; I do not think so. We find the spacing of our sleepers at the joints gives a sufficiently rigid road. 7354. You think that the joints, as the lines are laid at present, are as strong as the rest of the rails, do you ? I think they are sufficiently strong. I may say that we have had the angle fish-plate before us, and are making experiments with it, and if we see that any advantage is to be gained by using them, I have no doubt that the Commissioners will take into consideration the advisability of adopting them generally. 7355. You think that the common fi,sh-plate is good enough, however, with your present spacing of the sleepers ? We think so. 7356. When you spoke of the spacing of the road, it was merely with regard to the assumption that the joints are well designed ? We find that it is necessary to have a certain dead weight in the road to resist the shock of passing trains. 7357. What was the dead weight in this case? Three hundred and eighty-four tons 7 cwt. 3 qrs. and 11 lb. per mile, in the case of the 75 doublerheaded iron rails with sleepers 3 feet apart centres. 7358. In another case about 882 tons per mile, and in another. 346 tons ? Yes ; we find that the heavier the road the easier it is to keep it in order, as far as line and level are concerned. 7359. But what do you think, yourself, about the angle fish-plate ;— do you think that it would be a very desirable thing to put in ? We are experimenting with it, but I certainly have not come across an angle fish-plate for a T rail that I should feel any confidence in asking the Commissioners to adopt at present. 7360. Do you drill holes in the fianges- of the rails ? It has been the pr.actice to some extent. 7361. Do you consider it good practice ? It has the effect of keeping the rails from creeping. 7362. Uould you not arrange an angle fish-plate that would have the same effect ? I have not seen it done satisfactorily with an angle fish-plate. All sorts of contrivances are adopted for the purpose of preventing the rails from creeping. I have seen an arrangement by which deep fish-plates are used, and which extend below the tops of the sleepers. 7363. Do you not think it is a bad thing to bore holes through the flange of a rail? Well, if you cut it out at the end where it rests upon the sleeper I do not think it would matter much. If it is near the end of the rail I do not think there is any great objection to it, 7364. BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES IlfQUIET COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 233 7364. One more question upon rails, I merely want to talje your opinion, do you consider that treating Mr.. a rail as a fixed beam or a continuous beam is correct ? In the evidence that I gave ^- T-I'oxlee, 7365. Tes, but since then we have had other evidence, and I want your opinion upon that point ? I 25'^'''^o think that any calculations you make one way or another are of very little practical use. owiay, myi. 7366. In fact you think that you cannot represent by calculation what actually takes place? No, because there are so many buts and ifs about it all. 7367. Mr. Hoyle.] Well, now bearing in mind the factor of safety recommended by Mr. Eankin, would you say that the same factor of safety should be maintained in ironbark as in Baltic timbers ? Oh, no. 7368. Professor Eankin can hardly be including ironbark in his calculations, I should think ? I do not think so. 7369. He certainly does not refer to it specifically. I do not see it included amongst the timbers given in the list, upon which he bases his calculations ? And I do not think he can have had it in his mind when he recommended such a high factor of safety. 7370. In ironbark would you not consider a factor of safety of four would be sufficient, providing of course that the wood is in good condition ? Yes ; I should. 7371. I mean of course a real factor of safety of four, not a factor of safety of four at some distant period in the past ? Yes. 7372. I will not say anything about the Grlenlee Bridge, except to ask you about the tests you said you have made, were those tests made with a Baldwin engine and the driving-wheels in the centre of the bridge? Yes ; the engine was placed in the very worst position in which it could be piit. 7373. And you got how much deflection ? Kve-sixteenths of an inch I think. 7374. Professor Warren.] That is very small indeed. It is no use for me to say anything more about the matter, except this ; Mr. Hoyle referred to the testing of the bridge with an engine and two carriages ? That has nothing at all to do with it, we put the heaviest portion of the load on one span. 7375. I was going to say would it not affect the brake test? Of course, if you have a long train and after running it on to the bridge apply the Westinghouse brake, you produce longitudinal stress ? Yes ; that is precisely what is done, the train was taken on to the bridge at a high rate of speed and the brakes were then applied, the result being, I believe, that the longitudinal stress was nil. 7376. If you had had a longer train you would have tended to produce a greater stress, I take it, of course you had a small train with a heavy engine attached to it ? "Well, the effect was nil, possibly there might have been a greater effect witb a longer train. 7377. You stated just now that you adopted the Board of Trade rules — 5 tons in tension and 4 tons in compression for iron bridges. Are not the Board of Trade rules considered to be obsolete? Well, I have heard some people say that they are getting behind the age, but they are almost universally followed in England, in bridges of moderate dimensions. 7378. Yes, but take the deck of a bridge in England, would it not be much heavier than the deck of a bridge here? They are not heavier than the decks of bridges that we have been building recently. We have adopted the English practice. 7379. That would be in the quadruplication . work I suppose? Yes; and in the duplication of the Southern line. 7380. But if you were building a bridge in the country you would not use brick arches, would you ? Yes ; if I could afford it I certainly would use brick or masonry arches. 7381. Mr. Brown.] Then after all the amount of money you have to spend determines the factor of safety ? No ; it is not so much a question of the factor of safety that I am thinking about as the desirability of avoiding frequent repairs. 7382. Professor Warren.] The Petersham viaduct is laid with what I believe you call an American deck? The old Petersham viaduct is, but not the new one. 7383. The deck of that bridge would weigh much heavier than an American deck ? It would weigh much heavier no doubt. 7384. But take this bridge as you have designed it (referring to the new portion for the quadruplication) the ratio of the dead load to the live load that it carries is very small compared to your brick arches. Would you not allow a larger factor of safety in the case of a bridge like this than you would in the case of a bridge with a heavier deck ? You can hardly compare an iron bridge like this with a brick bridge. 7385. No ; but I want to get at is the factor of safety, and I want to hear what you would say about the factor of safety, if you have a smaller dead' load to the same live load. There are some bridges between Parramatta and Penrith with lattice girders. The dead load is say one, and the live load nine, would you allow 4 or 5 tons there? Where the structure is proportionately so much lighter than the load that it has to carry, I should certainly be inclined to put a little more metal into the girders. 7386. But in certain parts of these bridges between Parramatta and Penrith, which are not so very new, what working stress would you allow? You could not bring those little light bridges down lo tho standard of four or five, or probably three. You could not reduce your metal sufficiently to bring them down to the theoretical strength. 7387. You would allow a smaller working stress ? Yes ; that is what it amounts to, and that applies generally to lattice girders of small dimensions. 7388. Can you give me the dead load per foot run on this bridge ? I can supply you with the figures. 7389. At all events you have provided for the Baldwin engines on this bridge ? Yes. 7390. Did you reduce it to so many tons per foot run ? No ; we never do that. We loaded it as badly as we could, shifting the engines about, so that they would produce the worst possible effect upon the bridge. I never take the rolling load at per foot run. I put the heaviest engines I can get in the worst possible position, and having done that, find the resulting stress and provide metal accordingly. 7391. Can you tell me whether that is the best American practice also ? I am not sure ; but I think it is a very proper one. 7392. Did you take more than one engine on the bridge ? Yes ; in this case we filled the spans with American engines. We pat four or five on the bridge, and then got the resultant stress, not because they would ever run over the bridge four or five at a time, but because we determined to provide for the greatest possible stress. 7393. And you have done that on all the bridges that you have designed ? Yes. 7394. Well, that simplifies that matter very much, and shows that you have taken due precautions ? That is, I think, the proper thing to do. 7395, (J— 2G- 234 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES HTQUIET COMMISSION— MINITXES OP EVIDENCE. w rr^-^- , ^395. If they had done that in the case of the Solitary Creek bridges, there would not have been so much ^;.^;f°fj*^- trouble with them? No. 25'l&V^2 7396. Tou prepared a list of the bridges for the Commission, did you not ? Tes. ajr, xov^. yggy -^.j^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^ g^^^ ^^ ^jj^ ^.^j^ regard to the Solitary Creek Bridge, what is your maximum stress ? Do you mean what will be the maximum stress when the Baldwin engines are on the bridge and when it has been strengthened ? 7398. No ; as it is now. We see that you are going to strengthen the bridges, and we are very glad of it ? The maximum stress is 5 tons in compression, and 7-24 per square inch in tension. 7399. Did you do that in exactly the same way as you took the stresses on the other bridges, by placing the Baldwin engines in the worst possible position ? Yes. I have a diagram prepa,red specially, showing the stresses. I have had a second diagram prepared also. I am not sure whether it varies slightly from the first or not ; but practically these are the stress [pointing to the diagram]. The working drawings have been prepared. I think the figures are the same as those I have given you. 73991. The dead load on the bridge has not been altered since the Eoyal Commission on Bridges sent in their report, and it is given as 726 tons per foot run ; the total load is given as 2,726 tons per foot run. The ratio of the dead load to the dead load plus the live load is -27. Assuming that the stress may vary from •27 to 1, what would be the breaking strength of the material — supposing you take a piece of iron in tension, what would be its breaking strength ? I am afraid I do not quite follow you. 7400. I want to get the real factor of safety, and I want to find out what would be the breaking strength of the iron in the Solitary Creek bridges if they were loaded and relieved just as they are, in point of fact, by the trains running over them ? I get a factor of safety of four. In strengthening the bridges I shall take care tliat the factor of safety is not below four. 7401. "Well then, assuming that you put a girder in, that would be as strong as the two girders that are in at present, your factor of safety at the present time would be about two, would it not ? "What I say is that the range of stress is '27. If the breaking strength is 21 tons, when the load is gradually applied, and you apply loads which vary from, say, 2 tons to 8 tons, and then again from 2 tons to 8 tons and so on, which you really do when you run a train over them, what would then be the breaking strength of the bridges it would be very much less than 20 would it not ? Tes. 7402. Supposing it was 15 or 16 tons, and you gave 7"24 tons ? I see what you are driving at. 7403. Yes ; in that case where is your factor of safety ? That would bring the factor of safety down to about two, assuming, of course, that your calculations are correct. 7404. "Well, you can prove them for yourself ; they are not mere calculations, they are facts proved by experiment. Do you consider that merely slowing down a train is good enough on a bridge that only has a factor of safety of two ? I certainly think it is desirable to have a greater factor of safety. 7405. Yes, you would like to have a factor of safety of four ? Oh, I certainly should in putting up a new bridge. I should never think of giving a smaller factor of safety. 7406. Do you think for a moment that putting the Baldwin engines quietly on the bridge would produce half the stress that would be produced by them if you were running them over it at the rate of 50 mUes an hour ? It would undoubtedly produce half the stress. 7407. It would produce more than half the stress, would it not? I am looking at the deflections actually taken in regard to the "Wollondilly Bridge, and also upon some of the Solitary Creek bridges. 7408. Can you tell me what is the difEerence between your live load deflection and your dead load deflec- •tion ? I have generally found that the efi'ect of a train rushing over a bridge is greater than one standing upon the same bridge. 7409. I want to know how much greater ? There is a difference, but I cannot give you any rule, because it varies in almost every ease. 7410. All I want to know is what it would be in the case of the Solitary Creek Bridge ? I do not know what it is ; I only know that it varies, or that it did vary. 7411. "Well, then, I must fall back on the report of the Royal Commission on railway bridges, in the case of Barber's Bridge, which is similar to the Solitary Creek Bridge in construction ; the span is 60 feet, and a standing train produced a deflection of "5, and the running train produced a deflection of '56, so that the difference would only be about 12| per cent., or say 15 per cent., between the train standing on the bridge and the train running over it ? Yes. 7412. "Well then, looking at the facts of the case, do you think that these bridges are safe, and that all precautions are being taken ? Yes, considering that we are preparing to strengthen them. 7413. You believe then, or I should say do you believe, that these bridges are weak ? They have not the same factor of safety that they would have if we were building new ones. 7414. That is to say, you feel rather nervous about them ? No, I certainly do not feel nervous about them ; but I say that if we were building new bridges, we should build them stronger. 7415. And you say that there is a factor of safety of two ? "Well, you tell me that there is. If your calculations are correct there is, and I do not want to dispute them. 7416. "Well, you have taken your factor of safety on 21 tons, which is not the breaking strength of the iron in the Solitary Creek bridges, considering that the load varies from 0"76 tons to about 2"76 tons ? You have stated there is a factor of safety of two, and now you are asking me to verify your figures. Probably you are right, but I would like to have an opportunity of looking over my figures again. 7417. But it would have heed better if you had come here with your figures, Mr. Poxlee ? I did not know that you were going to question me exactly on the lines that' you have been questioning me upon. I have brought my diagram here, which shows that the iron is unduly strained. These are my calculations, and we are taking steps to remedy the defects in these old bridges. 7418. "Well, I ask you then what factor of safety have you in the Solitary Creek bridges ? A factor of safety of about three. 7419. How do you find that factor of safety ? By taking the ultimate strength of the iron at 21 tons per square inch. 7420. Therefore, you make no allowance for the fact that there is a range of stress ? I have made no allowance whatever. 7421. And that is your factor of safety ? That is my factor of safety. 7422. Are you aware that experiments have been made in Germany and also by Sir Ben. Baker and others showing clearly that the strength varies entirely by the way in which the stress is applied — supposing that BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTTIET COMMISSIOK — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 235 that -the tensile strength is 21 tons per square inch, and you apply a tension of 8 tons per square inch, and J^- that test varies from tension to an equal compression. "^' ■'■• ^"^^e. 7423. I want to get at this factor of safety ; — I want to see how you arrive at your conclusions — it is very 2gMavl892 important, because if one man takes it one way, and another man takes it another way, we shall have all ^' sorts of standards with regard to the factor of safety, and the consequence will be that some engineers would give two as the factor of Safety where you are giving three — each meaning quite a different thing — it is very important that we should know really what is meant ? Tes. 7424. What I say is this : a piece of iron is put in the testing machine, and you pull it gradually, and it breaks with a pull of 21 tons pers quare inch ; but suppose you supplied a stress and then relieve it entirely, and applied it again, and continued relieving it, and applying it say 5,000,000 times, what is the effect ? The effect is to fatigue the metal of course. 7425. "What will be the ultimate breaking strength, if the statical load is 21 tons ? I take it that ultimately the iron will fail. 7426. WitTi how much ? I am not at this moment prepared to say. 7427. Would it not break at about 14 tons ? Possibly. 7428. Well, then supposing you applied the stress in that way by compression, and an equal tension alternately, what would be its breaking strength ? I am not prepared to answer that question, in a small bridge of this character, I do not consider that it makes a very material difference. 7429. But the stress varies considerably between a live and a dead load according to your own figures. This bridge carries its own weight, and if a Baldwin engine passes over it it carries the Baldwin engine as well. The ratio between the bridge loaded and unloaded is very considerable ? Tes, undoubtedly. 7430. It would be about -27 would it not ? Tes ; I think so. 7431. So there is great difference between the range of stress, and I want you to show what the difference is, taking it in conjunction with the experiments made ? I have not gone into that beyond taking the stress resulting from the worst possible load that we could put upon the bridge. We put the worst possible load on the bridge, and we take the resultant in stress. 7432. And have you made these calculations ? Tes. 7433. Can you give any idea what the strength would be after a certain number of applications of the test ? I have not gone into that. 7434. It gets those applications, no doubt, when a train passes over it ? Tes. 7435. It is a very important matter ? We shall get these and other tests of the strength of the viaduct when we put the work in hand. 7436. I take it that you are going to do the same thing with the Wollondilly bridges ? Tes ; they are exactly similar. 7437. Have you noticed some difference in the joints ? No ; I have not had detailed drawings before me ; but the main girders, and also the cross girders are precisely similar to those on the Solitary Creek bridges, and we propose to deal with them' in the same way. 7438. That is to say, you will make each additional girder about as strong as the two present girders in each span ? Theoretically, I think it takes about two thirds of the load, but we shall make it strong • enough to carry the whole load. 7439. In the list of bridges supplied you give the spans and the actual working stresses ; I take it that these working stresses are due to Baldwin engines passing over the bridges ? Tes. 7440. Tou do not record the deflections, though they were asked for ? I believe we have the results in the office. 7441. Tou say on your own paper here that they were asked for ? If they are not here we shall let you have them. I asked that the deflections and the loads producing them should be recorded. 7442. So that I cannot ask you any questions upon these bridges ? I am sorry that they have not been supplied, but I will take care that you have them. 7443. What span has the Petersham viaduct ; I do not see it amongst these calculations ? Tes ; I think it is included in the calculations you have before you. Each span is 87 ft. 9i in. 7444. Well, you have given me the working stress at 4 tons on the top, and 4'93 tons — practically 5 tons — at the bottom ? Tes. 7445-6. That is a case in which I think there is some variation ; you have not given me the load here ? That is arrived at in the same way, by putting a Baldwin engine on the bridge. 7447. The weight of those bridges, referring to Eochester Creek and Duck Creek Bridges, would be very slight compared with the load they carry, would it not ? Well, the floors are rather heavy. They are cross troughs; all iron, and consequently heavier that the other system of flooring. 7448. Well, the highest stress is only 5 tons r Tes. 7449. We have a series of plans of 21 feet. 7450. Are they designed in the same manner as on the Grlenlee Bridge ? 7451. Are they of iron ? No ; they are timber. 7452. Is that vour standard bridge ; that is what I want to get at ? Tes. 7453. So that,' whatever the Glenlee Bridge is in strength, these are as strong as this is ? Tes. 7454. Tou have here a factor of safety qf 7'5 ? Tes. 7455. There is a bridge at 37 miles 75 chains ; is that stronger than the G-lenlee Bridge ? It is the G-leulee bridge. 7456. Well, these carry the Baldwin engines, I take it? Tes. 7457. So that, assuming your calculations to be right— assuming the G-lenlee Bridge to be correctly worked out — these bridges must be weaker in proportion by 9-77 to 7-5 ? Tes. 7458. I suppose there is no doubt about the factor of safety. They show really what has been done r Tes. 7459. I suppose we can see these viaducts on our way up the line ? Certainly. 7460. Are they new viaducts ? They ar,e old bridges widened. 7461. Tou have adopted the same system of construction, I take it, in the other bridges and in Q-lenlee Bridge ? In some cases we put the longitudinal timber iihmediately over a pair of girders instead of on one side and that accounts for the variation in the factor of safety. 7462. Do you propose to do anything to the Penrith Bridge ? There are two or three recommendations by the iRoyal Commission on Eailway Bridges, one of them is that when the line is duplicated the weight should be distributed over the cross-girders, but we are not duplicating the line ^t the present time, so we are leaving it. 7463. 236 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES II goods, nineteen coal, sixteen cattle, and seventeen sheep trucks— so you see the difference it makes in ^^' '^ ' going from a grade of 1 in 30 to 1 in 42. 7652. Tou must drop some of your load, or take a push-up engine ;— have you not a number of engines at Penrith now specially designed for push-up work— Saddle tank engines ? These engines were got for two purposes, either for pushing up or for taking the heavy mineral traffic at Newcastle. 7653. But the object of sending them to Penrith is for pushing up ? Xes ; you must understand that these engines you speak of have the same power as the old 205 class ; they are not new engines. 7654. They are at Penrith now, however, on account of their power for pushing-up purposes ? They are handy engines, but they were not got specially for that purpose. 7655. It has been sworn to that these push-up engines were put on more for the purpose of protecting the coupling than of helping the Baldwin engines ;— do you say that you do not take that view ? I do not take that view. 7656. Inspector Duff said that these engines were used more for protection than for assisting the Baldwin engines. Mr. Fehon has asked you about certain things relative to the Baldwin engines ; — I think you were out of the country when these engines were ordered ? I was. 7657. Tou were never consulted about the importation of these engines ? The necessity does not appear to have arisen for these engines before I left the country. 7658. So that you knew nothing about the necessity for them ? No, 7659. Nor about the specifications ? No. 7660. Only when you were in England you received the cablegram asking you to do certain things ? I heard, somehow, when in England that the engines had been ordered. 7661. Did they reach here before or after your arrival? After my return. 7662. When these engines were.put together did you personally make a close inspection of them ? Tes, I saw a good deal of them — close inspection may mean a different thing to you to what it does to me, my works manager, Mr. Howe, made a close inspection of them, and if he saw anything he thought required my attention he called my attention to it, I also inspected them myself in going through the works, and I made a point of looking at them when the men were away, I frequently saw the engines in walking through the workshops. 7663. Did Mr. Howe report to you anything that bethought defective about these engines ? He drew my attention to the wheels among other things, pointing out that there were various holes in them filled up with putty, he also drew attention to what he thought were flaws in the spokes of the wheels, we had wheels and spokes examined, and the putty taken out — and I came to the conclusion that they were a ■ very rough job — a rough piece of forge work, we did not arrive at the conclusion that there was any want of strength about them. 7664. Were there any defects in other parts pointed out to 'you? I do not remember any particular parts at the present time. Not until the engines commenced to run. 7665. Then you had bad axles ? Tes, and there were various parts which had to be attended to, for example, the draw-gear and the reversing-gear, and the wear and tear on the axle-boxes, these were pointed out to me after the engines had commenced to run. 766B. The wear and tear on the axle-boxes you refer to — do you consider then it was excessive, con- sidering the time that these engines had been running, I am speaking of the boss of the axle- wheel working into the axle-boxes ? Tes, I do, as compared with English engines ; but you have to compare these engiaes, not with English engines, but with similar ones from America such as we had before, and there you will find that the wear and tear on the American engines, or I should rather say the Baldwin engines, (because I have not had experience with other American engines) has been greater than with English engines. 7667. Did you get greater work out of the American engines than out of the English ? Tes, we got greater work out of them on account of their having greater power, when compared with small English engines. 7668. With regard to the previous Baldwins, did you get enough additional work out of them to com- pensate for the greater wearing away that you have spoken of ? Tes, the old Baldwin was a more * powerful engine than any English engine that we have had until the new Manchester engines arrived. 7669. Did you have more wear and tear in comparison with the old Baldwins when the new engines com- menced to run ? I think there was quite as much wear and tear on the old Baldwins as the new ones of the Consolidation type ; but not if you compare them with the passenger type. When you are running trains at a high rate of speed you must expect greater wear and tear, that follows as a consequence. 7670. Tou were speaking just now about the weight of rails upon which some of these heavy engines run in America and England, you say that with a 67-lb. rail they run at a high speed ? I spoke of very heavy weights upon the driving-wheels running in England on heavy rails. I did not refer to America. I am not acquainted with the American lines. 7671. Then these heavy weights are running in England on 80-lb. rails ? Tes ; 82 and 84-lb. rails. 7672. Do you know anything about the spacing in England and America ? Tes. In England the universal custom at the time I am speaking of was to have rails 21 or 24 feet long, and in almost all eases the spacing was as follows,— 21 ft., eight sleepers ; 24 ft., nine sleepers, so that you would have about 2 ft. 9 in. centres. In America the sleepers are spaced much closer. 7673. The custom in England then would be to have the sleepers spaced about 2 ft. 9 in. ? Tes, about that. And I should like to say that the sleepers in England are soft wood as compared with the hard wood we have here, which as you know makes a considerable difference. 7674. But in some cases they have cross ties on the English rails ? There are no ties. 7675. But take the G-reat Western for example ? Oh, that has longitudinal sleepers, that is quite a different thing. 7676. About the Scotch-Tankees— Tou know that their axles were taken out, and a comparative statement has been drawn up by your Department with Regard to this matter. When you took these axles out of the Scotch Tankee engine, did you do so because they were defective ? The reason was because they were running hot. They could not be kept cool. The engines were .b;ing constantly lifted. 24l4 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. lifted, and I came to the conclusion that we should get better results by putting in larger axles, and this ■^^^ has been borne out by experience, for now they are giving no trouble. 26mIt^2 ^^^''- -^^ *° *^^ Scotch Yankee, I take it that that was pretty well all that was the matter with thorn, y. ioy^. namely, that they were running hot ? We spent a great deal of money on them, and we had them a long time in the Colony before we ran them on passenger trains at all. They had no hand-brake on them. 7678. If they had no hand-brake that would come to the same thing as altering the light hooks of the Baldwin engines ? I thought it was with reference to the cost the Department has been put to with regard to the engines that you referred. The Department paid for the hand-brakes. 7679. I notice with regard to the ten Dubs engines that there is a great difference in the class of repairs carried out upon them aa compared with the Consolidation engine ? Yes ; there are a great number of the detailed parts of the Consolidation and passenger engines which have gone wrong, whereas the main troubles with the other engine were the altering of the axles and putting on the hand-brakes, which runs up the cost very considerably. 7680. I see that you charge the renewal of the axles and hand-brakes against the engine in the one case but you do not charge the renewal of the axles against the cost of the Baldwin engines ? "Well, it is not our work, the Baldwin Company have sustained the cost of it, and therefore we have not charged ourselves with the expense of putting these new axles in the Baldwin engines. 7681. But it was done in the Scotch- Yankee case on account of the defects in the axles, but the Baldwin engines with just the same defect, it is not shown against their cost ? It was admitted by the Company that it was a mistake, the Department did not pay in the Baldwin case. 7682. There are a great number of details in the running-sheds against the Consolidation and passenger engines, whereas with regard to the other engines the repairs made have been chieily hand-brake, and axle repairs, so that I do not think this comparative statement is a very fair one ? I think the object of the Department was to show the comparative cost of these engines to the country, and the charges which made up that cost. 7683. This statement is from the 11th February, to the 29th March, 1892, and the twelve passenger engines have a total sum against them of something like £400 or £500, and the other engines have beeu running a very much longer time ? 7684. Will you read the dates given ? 7685. There are no dates. This shows simply a return of one month — it shows that all these repairs have been made in one month, from the 11th February to the 29th March. We have wages, £306 148. Id ; stores, £77 Is. 7d; charges, £71 11. 6d., making a total of £455 7s. 2d. For the twelve passenger engines the cost of repairs and alterations are given as follows : — Total. Average per engine. Alterations £113 9 10 £9 9 2 Shop repairs (excluding cost of repairs through accident) £79 9s. lOd £375 17 4 £31 6 5 Eunning repairs £481 2 7 £40 1 11 With regard to the other engines there are no dates given ? May I look at that statement. 7686. Mr. Fehon.l This question has no reference to the subject under inquiry. 7687. Mr. Hoyle.'] This return has been put in evidence. 7688. Mr. Fehoru\ These questions are going into a great deal of irrelevant matter, not bearing on this inquiry. 7689. Professor Warren.^ I think the questions do bear on the case very decidedly, the amount of money spent in repairs on the engines is very important. If Mr. Hoyle had not asked these questions I should have done so on this very return. (Witness) I can give you all the dates you require, and I assure you that the time taken in making the comparison was as similar as we could get. The statement^with regard to the Baldwin engines is I think brought up to date. 7690. I think it would be fairer if we had a return showing the cost of these engines from the time they commenced to run up to the initiation of this Commission ? The date of the issue of the shop order was the 30th August 1891, that is about the earliest, then the return is brought up to the 25th February, that is the latest, you will see that the dates are given there. My impression is that in dealing with the repairs for the Scotch Yankee we took a similar period after their arrival in the Colony. The expenditure is not brought up to the date, but up to a similar time after their arrival in the Colony to that during which the Baldwins have been here. I could give you the dates, I think. , 7691. I think it has been given in evidence that these engines were lifted several times in the North, but I do not see anything in the return about that. 7692. Mr. FeJion.] Taking the charge that the Baldwin engines are faulty in design, the question of their design is a right matter to inquire into, but the question whether the engine had to be lifted or not is altogether different. All engines have to be lifted, and to compare them with other engines which have to undergo repairs would serve no purpose. All that appertains to this inquiry is to ascertain whether these engines were faulty in design, and. if money had to be expended by the Railway Commissioners to put them right, which ought not to have been expended. That is a legitimate question, but to go into matters of shop repairs will carry on this Commission interminably. 7693. Mr. JSoylei] The question of the axles of the Baldwin engines running hot has formed a great portion of the examination of witnesses. It is not easy to find out whether this is due to the design of the engines or not. Some of the witnesses would not say, some said it it due to laminations of the iron used, but at all events it is a charge that has been made against the engines. 7694. Mr. Fehon.] We admit everything in regard to the axles, there is no necessity to ask any questions about them at this stage of the inquiry. 7695. Professor Warren.'] I do not think Mr. Hoyle has asked any questions so far that he should not have asked. His questions show that expense has been incurred in making repairs which should not have been incurred if the engines had been originally sound. If the cost is abnormal it shows that there is something more defective in tliese engines than is met by ordinary repair. If there is an unduly large number of breakages it might show that there was something faulty in design. It is hard to say whether these things are of faulty design or not. This return furnishes certain information with regard to the goods engines, and Mr. Hoyle is now asking questions as to the statements which compare one engine BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 245 engine with another. The CommiBsioners have made this comparison in a return they have put in, and I Mr. see nothing wrong in Mr. Hoyle's question. W. Thow. 7696. President.] You may go on if you like, Mr. Hoyle. 'm""^"""^ 7697. Mr. Hoyle.] I think I have^ examined sufficiently upon that point. Eelative to the test of these' ^^^^^ '^^^• rails, Mr. Thow, you say that they broke with a drop of about 6 inches, with a monkey weighing a ton ? I said afterwards that I had not the figures with me; 7698. But it was about that, it was a very small drop ? Tes, 6 inches to the foot or something of that kind. 7699. Have we any guarantee that there are not many other rails on the road of a similar kind ? "Well, I cannot say that, it does not come under my supervision in any way. 7700. President.] Can you tell us whether a rail can be ascertained to be defective by merely looking at it when it is on the road ? I do not think there is any external sign which would shov^ it to be bad on mere inspection. 7701-2. Could you tell it by sounding ? No. 7703. Then it is one of the risks incidental to permanent way ? Tes, that is so. 7704. Mr. Hoyle.] Did one of the tender axles break on the mountains last Saturday week, I mean of the tender attached to one of the Baldwin engines ? Yes, an axle did break. 7705. There was a report of this tender axle breaking ? Yes. 7706. Has that axle been tested ? Tes, partially by the' drop test. 7707. And have the Department determined to take out all the axles ? Tes, we determined upon that some time ago, and the work has been going on. 7708. Professor Warren.] Is that to be done on the Consolidation engines? "We have taken out a number of the axles in the Consolidation engines too. 7709. "Was this a Consolidation engine ? I think so. Tes ; upon referring to my book I see it is. 7710. Mr. Hoyle.] "What was the test it stood ? We tested two pieces ; the axle was broken on the road in the middle, at almost equal distances from the wheels. We tested both pieces under the drop test. The first piece received blows of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 ft., and it broke at the seventh blow with a drop of 10 ft.— that is to say, 1 ton falling 10 ft. ; the second half was tested with blows of 7, 8, and 9 ft., and it broke after the third blow, with a drop of ft. 7711. Do you consider that a satisfactory test ? No ; I do not think that the iron was good. I think that had it been good iron it should have stood a much more severe test. 7712. Are there any more axles of that description in any of the tenders of the passenger engines ? I am not quite sure ; there may be a few, but most of them have been changed. 7713. In the tender wheels ? Tes, in the tender wheels. 7714. They have not all been removed from the Consolidation engines, have they ? No. 7715. It is one of the Consolidation engines, I believe, that runs the mail train ; — do you think it wise, under these circumstances to allow one of these engines to run a passenger train ? I do not think there is much risk ; its speed is very slow — it does not exceed much more than 18 miles an hour, at least, that is the speed between Penrith and Katoomba ; it has heavy climbing all the way, and therefore the speed is slow. 7716. This particular engine whose tender axle was broken was attached to a goods train ? Tes. 7717. Since that there has also been a broken tire, has there not ? Tes ; a tender tire. 7718. Have you made any tests of the quality' of that steel ? No. 7719. Do you intend to do so ? It might be well to do so, but tires often break — tires received from all makers — they sometimes break in the same way. The fact of this tire breaking did not attract much of my attention, because it is not very uncommon for a tire to break in that way. 7720. But it is a very dangerous thing though? It would be very dangerous if it came off. We have tires which break, biit they do not necessarily come off. 7721. I have here a copy of the Engineering News, dated 2l8t March,. 1891. It relates how a broken tire accident was averted, and it gives a section of the broken tire which was held by Mansell retaining rinp;s. It says, " When the engine reached the engine-house after making this run (130 miles, * without a stop, at the rate of about 40 miles an hour) the tire was found broken nearly square across, as shown [in the diagram]. As will be seen from the accompanying section the tire was still tolerably thick, I in., and only moderately warm in the tread, and the fracture was wholly without visible cause or excufie. Such fractures usually are. At what point in the run it occurred cannot now be known, but it is almost certain that except for the retaining ring the tire would have left the wheel, and it is quite possible that the result would have been as serious as at the St. George disaster, on the G-rand Trunk Uailway, about two years before, when a score or so of lives were lost as an effect of a similar breakage, since which date the Grand Trunk Eailway has been using Mansell rings on the wheels of its passenger •engines." 7722. President.] Would you not regard that as an advertisement for the Mansell ring manufacturers ? 7723. Mr. Hoyle.] Would it not be a very dangerous thing for a tire to break ? It might be if it came off, as I said before. i _ ,7724. Do you remember the Sunday we were engaged in making the trial trips ? Tes. 7725. Was a rail broken on the line that day ? Tes; but not by the engine we had. 7726. How do you know ? 7727. Mr. Fehon.] Because we did not go over it until after it was found broken. 7728. Then it was discovered before the engine I refer to reached it ? 7729. It was an 80-lb. steel rail, and it was broken by a man hammering it. 7730. Witness.] The Baldwin engine and the engine you had in front of your train passed over this rail after it was discovered, without the slightest risk or danger. 17^1. ^President.] Did we go over it ? Tes; but of course we knew all about it, and it was perfectly clear there was no danger ; it was just like the ordinary joint, but without fish-plates. 7732. On Easter Saturday, was there not a breali-down on the mountains in connection with a tourist's train with a Baldwin engine attached to it ? There may have been, but- 1 do not recollect it. 7733. Well, I think if you will make some inquiries you will find that it was so, because as a matter of fact a friend of mine happened to be in the train and told me of the circumstance. Tou do not know what part of the engine broke down do vou ? No ; I do not. ^ ^ 7734. *" BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQITIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OT EVIDENCE. ^ Mr. 7734. As I say, a friend of mine was in the train and told me of the break-down, saying that there was ^,.„^^j^_Ji^ a considerable delay in consequenee? .We have had trouble with the reversing-gear, as you know, and 26 May 1892 *^^ break-down you speak of may have been in connection with it. ' 7735. Have you had much trouble wilh the reversing-gear since you have had the engines ? Yes ; we have changed a good many of the screws and are going to change more. 7736. Were those defects the result of bad workmanship — did they arise through anything that occured in the shops ? No ; they were the results of inefficient designs. 7737. And you have had to renew the reversing-gear on a great msyiy of them in consequence of it? We are renewing the reversing-gear at the expense of the Baldwin Company. 7738. That does not matter to me for the purpose of this inquiry whether the Baldwin Company pay for the renewals or not, the charge sets out that the Baldwin engines were defective in design and construction? You must understand that ordinary reversing-gear cannot be used on the steep grades of our lines ; they are much steeper than anything they have in America, and the Baldwin Company did not know what our requirements were, all they knew was that we had asked for reversing screw gear, but as they always use levers instead of screws in America, they had not made anything of the kind before. They did their best, but their best has not been strong enough. Our heavy grades put such a strain upon the motion of the engine that the reversing gear has to-be unusually strong, otherwise it will not last. 7739. I'resident.^ Then would the reversing-gear that the engines came out with have been sufficiently strong for the requirements of' an engine running in America ? Oh ; it would have been strong enough. 7740. Mr. Fehon.'] You might ask Mr. President whether in point of fact is it not the universally used reversing-gear. 7741. President (to Witness).] Yes. Was the gear that the engines had when they came out the kind of gear that is always used in America? No; the usual gear used in America is a lever, but these engines came out with screws. We have to abandon the lever in this country and use a screw, because of our very heavy grades. 7742. Professor Warren.^ Have they not very heavy gradients in America ? Is not for instance that Baltimore and Ohio used on a 137-mile grade ? Well ; they have some steep grades in America, of course, but generally speaking their ruling grades are nothing like as heavy as ours. 7743. Mr. Brown.'] Did you go over the Marshall Pass, on the Eocky Mountains, when you were in America, Mr. Thow ? I know the part you are alluding to, but I did not go over it, although I went by Rio Grande Route, and of course there are some exceedingly heavy gradients there. 7744. Mr. Soyle.'] Did you see a report in yesterday's Daily Telegraph, stating that the coupling of the Melbourne express broke ? Yes. 7745. Had that anything to do with the reversing-gear ? No ; I might explain how it occurred. The coupling that broke was an old screw-coupling put on by mistake at Eedfern station, between two carriages. 7746. Can you tell us — but perhaps you cannot— as you were not here at the time the engines were ordered, whether the Baldwin passenger engines were brought here to run the express service ? I fancy they were. 7747. If you will allow me for a moment I will read a paragraph from the Sydney Morning Herald, of 26th June, 1891. In that paper it is stated that, the locomotives are of the ten-wheel make-six driving- wheels and a four-wheeled truck, and attached to each is an eight-wheel tender. They are the heaviest and most powerful locomotives introduced to the Australian continent. They are guaranteed to accomplish double the work of any engine now in use on the New South Wales railways. Por instance, one of the new engines wi[l run an express train to the Northern and Southern borders as quickly and as safely as two of the ordinary locomotives do similar work now." You have heard that extract, Mr. Thow, can you tell me whether the facts are as stated ? 7748. {President. (To Mr. Hoyle).] One moment, I do not understand the nature of your question exactly. What paper is that you are quoting from ? Mr. Hoyle : The Sydney Morning Eerald, of June 26, 1891. ' 7749. President."] Yes, it does not matter what paper it is. The only question is whether it is admissable as evidence, and in order to determine that we must know whether the information was supplied by any of the Railway Commissioners, or indeed by any [body in the department. Or whether the paragraph ia simply a description written by some gentleman whose business it is to write for the papers. 7750. Mr. Soyle.] 1 do not know who supplied the information, it must have been somebody who knew something about the engines. I conclude that whoever wrote the paragraph must have obtained the information from somebody in the Department. 7751. President.'] Yes, but a gentleman who wanted to get a paragraph for a newspaper very often comes to the persons from whom he expects to get the necessary information, and after being told a few bare facts, goes back to the office and writes a long description. He arranges the matter as picturesquely as he can, and it would, of course, be unfair to bind the Commissioners to anything that was written in that way. If the gentleman who wrote the paragraph indulged in a little word-painting, it would be impossible to hold the Commissioners responsible for that. 7752. Mr. Moyle.] Well, my only object in reading the paragraph and asking Mr. Thow about it — if indeed he knew anything about it, which, as I said, he perhaps does not — was to save the time of the Com- mission, because I may think it necessary to bring a number of reporters from the Sydney Morning Htrald as witnesses to prove who gave them the information. 7753. President.] But surely there is no necessity to do that, Mr. Hoyle. You can get all the information you want in regard to the paragraph, if it is in Mr. Thow's power to give you any information, by asking him to answer a few questions upon it. 7754. Mr. Soyle.] Very well, Mr. President, I will not press the matter. 7755-6. [To Witness.] Can you tell me, Mr. Thow, whether as stated in this paragraph the Baldwin passenger engines were interided for the express service ? I believe they were intended to run the express service. It was, however, stated in my former evidence that we intended to run passenger engines in one direction and goods in another ; the idea was that by getting these large engines we should be able to diminish the accidents and delays of haulage, and, as a matter of fact, we have succeeded in that to a considerable extent. If the engines were wanted to take a passenger train from here to Bathurst, the same engines should be powerful enough to bring back a goods train, and the new Baldwin engines are sufficiently powerful. 7757. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES lyQITIEY COMMISSION-— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 2^7; 7757. Were tbey put on the express service? They were. ^1'- 7758. And they were taken off I believe because of the breaking of the axles ? Tes. ^- ^^°^^ 7759. Why were they not put on again ? I believe the principal reason was that we had at the time a n^^Z^^n number of engines from Manchester— the Beyer and Peacock's new engines, which are running the express " '».''•' trains now, and consequently it is not necessary to use, as was previously used, the Baldwin engines for that purpose. 7760. Tell me, then, were these powerful Beyer and Peacock engines which the Commission saw in the Eveleigli workshops here at the time the Baldwins commenced to run the express ? No, they were not in the Colony when the Baldwin engines were taken off the express service owing to the breaking of the axles. 7761. Then, what engines were used for the express trains at that time, how did you manage to get along without the Baldwin engines for your express trains when they were taken off after once beginning to riln them ? We returned to the old engines — the engines that used to run the express trains before the Baldwin engines arrived. We used the 304 class for the Newcastle express on some occasions, and we always use the 255 class, which is a two-wheeled couple engine for the Melbourne express. 7762. Then, as a matter of fact, when the Baldwin engines, after being laid up for repairs to the axles, were put in running order again, there was no necessity to use them for express purposes because you had other engines in the service sufficiently powerful for the work, and the Baldwin engines were put on ordinary passenger and goods traffic ? Tes. 7763. Mr. Brown.] Why are they all used in the West ? Well, because it is better to keep one class of- engines in ope district. When that is done the men whose duty it is to repair them get used to one particular kind of engine, and they work more efficiently and more economically than as though they were engaged in repairing a number of types. The drivers and firemen also get used to a certain class of engines, and they do their work better. 7764. Mr. Fehon.'] Tes, but a,s a matter of fact, the Baldwin engine^ are used in the West because it is the Mountain line and there is the heaviest work to be done upon it. 7765. Mr. Royle^ They did run the Southern express at one time, did they not? Tes ; as far as Goulburn. 7766. It must have been as far as Junee, because we had evidence of a broken axle at Junee, you remember that ? Tes, I remember the broken axle, they did run as far as Junee for a short time. 7!r67. Mr. I'ehon.'\ It was only for a very short time. 7768. Mr.Soyle. (To witness).] And they were taken off the Southern express because of their defective axles ? Tes. 7769. Mr. Fehon (to Witness).] Is it not a fact that they used a push-up engine on the mountains for years before the Baldwin engines were thought of? Tes. 7770. Professor Warren.'] I want to ask Mr. Thow a few questions. The English engines that you have been referring to draw from 130 to 192 tons, do they not ? "We have had an engine (English) in evidence to some extent, and I wish to get a few particulars about it from you ? I can give you the loads of the •engines if you like. ^ 7771. Give me the biggest load on the Picton incline and also the speed ? From Picton to Mittagong is one section, and the load on the mail trains is eight anrl a quarter carriages. 7772. That is eight and a quarter times twenty ? Tes ; and the load on the express trains is seven and a quarter, and at times if the trains are unusually heavy we take eight and a quartjsr^ — that is up the Picton incline. We take the same load with the express as we do with the mails if occasion requires that we should ; but we ask the traffic people to keep the load on the express down to seven and a quarter if they possibly can. At the same time there is foot-note in this load table that permits them to load the express up to the weight of the mail train if necessary, provided that they give us a little more time to do the work. 7773. Something has been said about the speed that these engines have on the inclines ; I suppose you must know something about what the English engines do with this load of 178 tons. What speed will an English engine come up the Picton incline with that load ? We have never made any experiment, so I am not able to give you any valuable evidence on that point. 7774. Can you give me any figures that will enable me to get at the horse-power of the English engines ? No, we have not made any experiments in that direction. 7775. Tou say that the draw gear is limited to the hauling of 10 tons ? Tes. 7776. So that your draw-gear is now, I think, four to five times as strong as your strain ever can be ? I was speaking generally with regard to the draw-gear. 7777. What factor of safety have you got in your draw-gear ? It is quite six in the draw-gear on the engines, and four and a half to five in the other vehicles. 7778. How many types of engines have you in use which you propose to continue to use ; of course, we understand that you are endeavouring to gradually reduce the number of types of engines on the hne ? We have eighteen types of engines in use that we intend to continue. That includes the new Baldwin engines. 7779. Tou would call the new Baldwin engines three types, I suppose— that is to say, Baldwin passenger engines, Baldwin goods engines, and compound engines ? No, we call the Baldwin engines two types. 7780. But how do you account for the compound engines ? I do not consider that to be a special type ; indeed, there is nothing special about it, except the cylinder and the side-bars. 7781. Then you classify them in the same type as the passenger engines, I suppose ? No, we classify with the goods engines. 7782. Tou intend to keep them for running the goods trains then ? Tes. 7783-4. When you stated the Baldwin engines did more work than English engines you merely meant that they were more powerful, I take it ? Tes ; they are so constructed as to do more work, because of their greater size. 7785. Tou did not intend to institute a comparison between an English engine and an American engine ? No ; I merely meant that they are fitted for heavier work by reason of their larger cyhnder and larger heating service. 7786-7. With regard to the trials that we made the other day,'I am very sorry that I have not a copy of the results with me. I know that they are printed, but I would like to have it to refer to now. I am referring of course to the report of Mr. Kidd and Mr. Pollock ; but as a matter of fact they would have to come here, or one of them at all events. Still, before then I should like to have gone over the results with you and ask you a few questions upon them. 7788. 248 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IXQUIliY COilMISSIOJf — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. 77S8. Mr. Hoyh.] If you want a copy of the report of Mr. Kidd and Mr. Pollock on the trial made the W. Thow. o^.j,gj, g^„(jaj \^-^^Yi the Baldwin engines, I can let you have it. I have it beside me. It was road by Mr. 2fiM^a^^i8q9 Eddy in thti course of his evidence the other day. '' 7789. Professor WarrenJi That is only a preliminary report. The report is very much longer. I saw it printed in Mr McLachlan's hands ycsterdav, and sliould very much like to have it before me now. 7790. To Witness.'] I notice that in taking these tests the average speed up the incline is given ;— does, that not include the inertia of the engine when ,it begins to make the ascent ? Yes ; in these particular tests that would be the case, because the speed was pretty high after leaving Picton, and then it began to fall as the engine settled down to her work. 7791. So that if we were to calculate the horse-power for the first quarter of a mile or so, that would be altogether misleading ? As regards the power of the engine, I think it would. 7792. It would depend upon how much work you got on the incline ? Yes. 7793. In fact, you may get a very large apparent horse-power out of some very ordinary engine by making the test in that way ? Yes ; the only way the horse-power of an engine could be tested would bo by taking the area of the indicated diagrams after the engine had settled down to her work, and computing the speed of the wheels. If that were not done, it would be like trying to weigh a body in a scale, and pushing the scale up and down. 7794. Of course I do not want to alter any of the figures in the report. The speed up the incline is rightly" recorded ; but when the horse-power is put on I think it should be as you say, after the engine has settled down to her work, and then that should be put against the iudicated diagrams, which correspond with the mileage on the wheel, and thus show what the engine is doing ? It is not done here. 7795. You do not consider the defects in the wheels are flaws ? I do not say that I would regard them as absolute fractures. 7796. Here is a report by Mr. Eobertson, Mr. Stanger, and Mr. Neale, relating to tests with the new- American engine. This of course is before the trial, and I think it looks like the report that Mr. Stranger handed to me when he was giving his evidence. It is the report of the test made with the Baldwin passenger and Consolidation engines. Do you remember that ? Yes ; I think I have seen that. 7797. Have you considered the results as shown by these figures. I do not consider the table at all complete. It lacks one very important column, and that is horse-power. Did you calculate the horse- power when these tests were made ? It .can be done from the speeds, if the speeds are given there, provided that they are correct. 7793. I take it that you are anxious .to find out what work has been done by all the engines in the service and of course the only way in which you can do that is by taking the horse-power ? Yes ; we like to know what each class of engine is doing, and I generally run out the horse-power. 7799. Mr. FeJion.'] As a matter of practice, Professor Warren, we do not bother about horse-power. It does not matter to us what the horse-power of an engine is if she is doing her work well, and all that we calculate is the work done. 7800. Professor Wan-en.'] That is all very well for the Railway Commissioners ; but it would not be at all satisfactory to the Chief Mechanical Engineer, No doubt it is enough for the Commissioners to know that the engines are doing their work well ; but it is necessary for a gentleman in Mr. Thow's position as he has just admitted, to know the horse-power which the engine is capable of developing under given conditions. 7801. To Witness.] You would not consider it a fair test of an engine unless the horse-power was given, would you ? I always consider the horse-power an important factor in a test. Por instance, if I wanted to compare the work done by an engine at one time with the work done by another engine at another time, each perhaps drawing a different load, it would be absolutely necessary for me to work thctn both out to horse-power. The work done by the two engines must be reduced to a common denominator, otherwise it might be made to appear as if one engine with a very small load behind her was "doing :noro work than an engine with a very much heavier load. 7802. Exactly ; your answer implies that it is impossible to form an exact estimate of what the engines aro doing, unless you have a basis of comparison, and that you have to get by obtaining the horse-power ? That, of course, depends entirely upon the point of view which you consider most important. It might be of the greatest possible importance in railway working to clear a station-yard of waggons. It might be much more important to clear a station-yard of waggons than to clear it at a great pace. If you could only get the waggons out of the station-yard, it rnight matter very little if they are cleared out at a high rate of speed or at a. low rate of speed, and, therefore, horse-power does not come into consideration in such a matter. 7803. But in ordinary traffic it does ? Yes, that is another thing altogether ; there I should certainly consider the horse- powder an important factor in calculating the work done by an engine. 7804. I was not thinking about the taking of waggons out of the yard, I was thiaking about the hauling of a train up a grade, and in that you say the horse-power is an all important element ; — have you worked out the horse-power in these tests — there are six of them made with Baldwin passenger engines and Baldwin Consolidation goods engines ? It is the first time that I have seen that particular paper. 7805. Do you know what horse-power these engines are supposed to develop ? Which engines are you referring to, the passenger or the Consolidation engines. 7806. The passenger engines ? I know there are statements before they were put into use, but I do not remember the exact result.. 7807. But do you know what they wore supposed to exert ; — do you remember what they were supposed to do in the correspondence that passed between the Railway Commissioners and the Baldwin Locomotive Company ? Wo, I do not. 7808. Mr. Fehon.] I do not think that horse-power was once mentioned in the whole of that corres- pondence. 7809. Professor Warren.] I think that spewed and weight and gradient are mentioned, so that although you may not have asked for the horse-power in so many words, you did the same thing in another way. 7810. Mr. Fehon.] No, we did not ; we certified the size of the boilers, the wheels and the cylinder, and various more or loss important details, but said nothing about horse-power. 7811. Professor Warren (to Witness).] You have read the correspondence between the Railway Com- missioners and the Baldwin Locomotive Company, I suppose, Mr. Thow ? I have read some of it, but I do not know whether I have read what you are referring to. 7812. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEY COMMISSIOH-— MINUTES OE ETIDENCE. 249 7812. Do you know the horse-power which these engines are supposed to exert? No, I could not tell you. Mr, 7813. Do you know the horse-power that they do actually exert ? No, I do not. W. Thow. 7814. But surely you have thought of this matter ? I can tell you approximately from calculations as to „^7i^ ^ what they did on the Sunday that we made the trials on the southern line. ^° ^^^' ^^^^• 7815. We know that they did excellent work on that occasion, and we want to find out whether they are doing what it was intended that they should do ? Well, we have a record of the work that they did, and we know that it was thoroughly satisfactory. 7816. It would be much better to have the actual horse-power stated in evidence by the Chief Mechanical Engineer than a bare statement that the engine performed its work satisfactorily. What it says in the correspondence is this.: "It is proposed to haul with this engine trains weighing 152 gross tons (340,500 lb.), up long grades of 130 feet per mile. This would be the usual train, and we expect it to be hauled up this grade at about 22 miles per hour. Oceasioaally the train would have an additional car, making the load without engine and tender 178 tons, or 394,240 lb. These loads include a full complement of passengers, mail, and baggage." So you have here a maximum load of 178 tons up a grade of 1 in 40 at 22 miles an hour. That is specified in the letter written by Mr. McLachlan to the Baldwin Company, on the 22nd of September, 1890. Is that not quite as good as if you had the horse-power stated in so many words ? 7817. Mr. Fehon.] Tou must not forget, Professor Warren, that in answer to that letter the Baldwin Company said that they could not guarantee that speed. 7818. Professor Warren.'] They said they could not guarantee the speed because it depended on certain other things. They also say this, that they could not guarantee the speed because of the reductions in the weight on the driving-wheels. What they say is this :— " The proposed reduction of weight per axle wiU, we fear, cause disappointment in the performance, of the engines. We judge the same work is expected of them as that stated in the Railroad Gazette as being performed by the Baltimore and Ohio engines. It should be fully understood that their efficiency will be correspondingly reduced. As we understand that the permanent-way of the New South Wales railway is of a much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad, we see no reason why the engines built for the latter could not be adopted entire. We should be gratified if, on further consideration, this could be decided upon." 7819. Mr. Fehon.} And we accepted the engines on this understanding, and therefore our original estimate falls to the ground altogether. 7820. Professor Warren.'] I do not think it does. The only difference between your original specification and the engines that you have received is that the engines sent out to you have less weight on the driving- wheel ; but surely it does not follow that because they reduce the weight on the driving-wheel, although it was done at your request, and they said, " that they feared it might cause disappointment in the performance of the engines," that therefore the engines should do nothing. 7821. Mr. Fehon.] We reduced the width over the cylinder, and also the weight on the driving-wheels, and made various other alterations, and in consequence of that the Baldwin Company wrote to say that they could not guarantee that the engines would perform the work as far as speed is concerned, that we said that they would be required to perform in the first letter we wrote to them, and that is why I say that the original specification falls to the ground. 7822. Professor Warren ] That is a matter of opinion. I do not think that it does. It seems to me that in that first letter you stated distinctly what it was that you expected the engines to do, and, apart from that letter, we have no guide as to what your expectations were. In a subsequent letter the Baldwin Company say : — " We have carefully considered the conditions of service for which these locomotives are intended, namely, to haul from 150 to 176 gross tons of cars and load at a speed of 22 miles per hour, up long grades of 136 feet per mile, combined with ^severe curvature, and to haul, up grades of 176 feet per mile with easier curvature, loads of 120 to 144 gross tons. We note that the shortest curves are 538 feet radius, but it is not stated that this is the radius of the curves in combination with the 130 feet grade. Our calculations indicate that the engines will have suflScient tractive force to haul these loads, but we prefer not to make a definite guarantee of the speed, as it is more or less dependent upon conditions of which we are not fully informed, such as the quality of the coal, the wheel-base of the rolling-stock, condi- tion of track, &c," That is the point. They do not guarantee the speed, because they are not informed of these things ; but the next line in the letter shows that, although they do not guarantee the speed, they anticipate that the work will be done at the speed you expect it to be done, and they give as an example the performance of a Baltimore and Ohio engine in daily service on one of their own lines. They say that the maximum load taken up a 17-mile grade is about 214 nett tons, and that the speed is 22 miles per hour. They say that there is much curvature on the ll7-ft. grade, and that they are informed that in some places the actual grade considerably exceeds 117 feet per mile. " The B. and 0. locomotives," they add, " have a total heating surface of 1,945 square feet, whilst the heating surface of the proposed locomotives as per specification number 5,231 is 1,937 square feet. From these data you can readily judge * as to the power and speed of the new engines. 7823. Mr. Fehon.] It was quite experimental. They altered the engines to accommodate us, and they sent them out, not knowing exactly,' and not guairanteeing Avhat speed they would travel. 7824. Mr. Brown.] I can quite understand that. The fact of the matter is that you wanted to strike the best bargain you could with the Baldwin Company, and in specifying the speed at which you expected the engines to travel, you gave a pretty high figure in your original letter. Then you make a reduction in some of the parts of the engine ; and upon considering the effect that that reduction may have upon the performances of the engine, the Baldwin Company say we will not guarantee that they will do the same performances as we would have guaranteed if you had not made the alterations. Upon receiving that letter the Commissioners say, " Well, although we want the engines to do so and so, and you will not guarantee that they will do it, still we shall be glad to take them," and, as a matter of fact, you would have been satisfied if they had done less. 7825. Mr. Fehon.] Tes ; that is exactly how the matter stands. 7826. Professor Warren.] Allow me to quote from a letter written by Mr. McLachlan on the 29th December, 1890, to the Baldwin Locomotive Company. In that letter he says, "We calculate that to take a train up the 130-ft. grade at 22 miles an hour will require about 50 indicated horse-power less than is wanted by the Baltimore and Ohio engine during its maximum work, and as in our weight for the 6—2 1 t^^aiii ^^^ BAlD'yriH- LppOMpXITES INQUIJir pOMill^SIOST — illNTJTES OF ETI^ENCE. ^ M^ train (176 tons gross, exclusive of engine and tenjier), we include an ample allowance for the weiglit of '^:..iZ^°^ passengers and baggage, we anticipate that the engine will be fully equal to this pei-formance. \Yo 26 May '1892 ^^o^^^'^i however, be glad of your confirmation on this point." That is the letter sent by Mr. McLaughlan ^ 'on behalf of the Railway Commissioners after you had received the letter from the Baldwin Locomotive people to vvhich you refer. 7§27. Mr. FeJion.] Not after we had received the engines. The engifies came here without any stipulei. tion at all from the Baldwin locomotive people, or indeed from us, considering that our original specifica- tion was ovBrthrown by the alteration in the parts of the engine. ' 7828. Professor Warren.] But you have been stipulating all along what you expected the engiao^ to do, and in the letter which I have just quoted Mr. McLachlan says, referring to the work done by the Balti- more engine during its maximum performance, " "We anticipate that the engine will he fully equal to this performance." Surely that is a stipulation on your part, or at least a very clear indication of what you expect the engine to do. 7820. Mr. Felion.'] "We expected them to do very much more work than any engines we have had in the Colony before, and I think we have proved that they are doing very much more. 7830. Professor Warren.'] The Commissioners evidently anticipated that the engines would do vyhat I say, or else why should Mr. McLachlan have written to the Baldwin Locomotive Company on their behalf, saying, " "We anticipate that the engines will be fully equal to this performance "? 7831. Mr. Fehon.] It takes two sides to make a bargain. The next sentence in Mr. McLachlan's letter reads, " We should, however, be glad of your confirmation on this point." "We might have anticipated that the engines would do what you say, but as a matter of fact the Baldwin Company distinctly refused to guarantee the speed, and I do not know what they are doing to this day. All that I do know is that, engine for engine, they are doing more work than we could have expected. 7832. Professor Warren.] "What I want is to have the horse-power that they are actually exerting worked out. I consider that you clearly indicate the horse-power expected of them by you when you ordered them, and it is only by a comparison between the two that we can find out whether they are performing the work that is expected of them. 7833. Mr. Fehon.] "We never stipulated what the horse-power was to be in any engine that we imported, either from England or from America. 7834. Professor Warren.] But do you not see that horse-power is distinctly implied in what you ask for, when you state' the load that the engine will have to draw, and the speed at which you expect it to haul that load ? 7835. Mr. Fehon.] No. "We wanted a particular 'engine for particular work, quite irrespective of horse- power, and we say that they are doing that work. 7836. Professor Warren?^ But you will have to prove it ; and you can only do that by working out the horse-power that the engines are actually exerting, and comparing that with the horse-power that you stated in your letters you expected them to exert. 7837. Mr. Prawn.] I think you will have to construe that correspondence much as you will have to con- strue the correspondence about the axles. The Baldwin Company say they will pay for new axles to re- place those of inferior quality sent out vvith the engines. I maintain, commercially, that they will do nothing of the kind ; they will pay for a proportion of them, and you will have to bear the rest of the ^expense. The Baldwin Company will never pay for the boring of the hole to a larger size, and the pj;her expenses incidental to putting the new axles into the engines. 7838. Mr. Fehon.] But we had the mqney in hand, and we have stopped it. 7839. Mr. Brown.] A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Do you mean to say that the Baldwin Company have actually paid for this work ? 7840. Mr. Fehon.] Yes, I do; we have had a settlement with their own representative ; they have paid |or and settled everything ; they have behaved in a most liberal manner ; indeed, when they heard of the fault that we had to find with the axle, they voluntarily offered to make them good at their own expense. 7841. President.] Then instead of getting less than you anticipated you have, in that case, got more than you expected ? 7842. Professor Warren.] I want to get this question of the work that was expected of them, and the work they are actually doing, placed upon a fair basis. In your letters to the Baldwin Company we have a certain statement ; and what we want now is, to know exactly what the engines are doing. They are evidently doing very good work, but I want to see exactly what they are doing. 7843. (To Witness.) Have you worked out the horse-power represented by 176 tons on a grade of 1 in 4p at 22 miles an hour ? Tes, I have worked it out ; but I understand that the Baldwin Company did not guarantee any speed. 7844. Tes,' but the Railway Commissioners expected that they would haul 176 tons up a grade of 1 in 40 at 22 miles an hour. That is evident from the letters ? The speed has everything to do with the ques- , tion, and if there was no guarantee of speed I do not see how we are to fix the horse-power that they were expected to exert. They did not say the engines would do a certain thing at a certain speed ; then I do not see how we can make the comparison of horse-power that you ask for. 7845. What horse-power did they get in the correspondence? That would represent about 1,030 horse- povver. 7846. Do you not think it is a little more than that ? I do not think so. 7847. Well, we still call it 1,030, but I make it 1,222. Have you taken a load of 176 tons, or a load of 150 tons, as a basis for your calculations ? I took 176 tons, plus the vveight of the engine and tender, which gives altogether 270 tons. 7848. What is your total resistance ? Sixty-five lb. per ton. 7849. And you reckon a speed of 22 miles an hour ? Yes. 7850. And you get as a result a horse-power of 1,030 ? About that. 7851. What was the horse-power taken at the trial — not at the commencement of the grade, but after thp engine had settled down to its work ? I have not seen the card. 7852. What is the biggest horse-power you got altogether on the grade ? It was something over 900, 1 think. I have not got the card, so that I cannot speak from facts. To the best of my recollection, however, it is about 900. 7853. Mr. Fehon.] Perhaps it might expedite matters a little if Professor "Warren would leave this ques- tion until Mr. Stanger is called. I intend to call him this afternoon, and as he was here at the time i ho engiiu s BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES IWQTJIRT COMMISSION— MIXTJTES OF EVIDENCE. 251 engines were ordered, and, as a matter of fact, prepared tlie specifications, he knows exactly what was „, Mr. ejected of them. ^ W. Thbw. 785i. Presideni .'] As far as the question of what was expected of the engines is concerned, that cannot be ^5jJ^^^"^2 gathered from these documents, because one thing was said by the Baldwin Company, and another thing ^' by the Eailway Commissioners, so that what we have to do is to determine broadly what work was expected of the engines. Professor "Warren's point is this : That, in the first place, you wrote for engines capable of hauling 176 tons up a grade of 1 in 40 at the rate of 22 miles an hour, and that after you received the letter from the Baldwin Company, in which they said that owing to the alterations you had made in the engines they would not guarantee the speed. Mr. McLachlan, on behalf of theEailway Commissioners, said, " We calculate that to take a train up the 130-ft. grades at 22 miles an hour will require about 50 indicated horse-power less than is wanted by the Baltimore and Ohio engines during its maximum work, and as in our weight for the train (170 tons gross, exclusive of the engine and tender), we include an ample allowance for the weight of passengers and baggage, we anticipate that the engine will be fully equal to this peformance." That is what Professor Warren says was expected of these engines, or rather he takes that as one of the elements of your expectations. The question for us is to consider whether that is actually what you expected, or whether you were simply trying to get the best you could from the company, and, in order to do that, stating more than you really expected to get. 7855. Professor WarrenJ] Well, if they had put it in that way, I should not have pressed the matter, but they have brought forward no evidence at all to show that they did not expect the engines to do all that was expected in the correspondence. 7856. Mr. Fehon^ Ton must not forget that the engines were ordered in a very great hurry. 7857. President.'] Well, I am only putting my own views of the question before you. It seems to me that it is quite possible that as business people — for in this respect the Commissioners were acting as business people as well as the Baldwin Company — you ware each trying to get as much as you could, and that there was no actual contract entered into. 7858. Professor Warren.~] Is Mr. Stanger to be called ? 7859. Mr. Pelion.'] Tes ; we will call him after Mr. Thow's evidence is concluded. 7860. Professor Warren.'] Well, then I shall ask him a number of questions with regard to the tests that have been applied to these engines, and I hope that he will come prepared with figures. It is very uusatisfactory to receive answers couched in general terms. 7861. Mr. Proton (to Witness) .] What kind of inspection were the engines submitted to after they arrived here ? Just the ordinary inspection that an engine would get before being put to work. 7862. These engines were not inspected in America, as the engines built in England are ; it was quite understood that they should not be inspected there ; indeed, it was thought better that they should not he, and what I want to know is more for the sake of information than anythjng else — what kind of inspection they received after arriving in the Colony ? An engine in process of manufacture is inspected as the parts are being made. 7863. Where is that ? Either in England or America — where ever inspection during manufacture is instituted. 7864. But I am speaking now of the inspection to which the Baldwin engines were subjected at the hands of the Eailway Commissionei's or their officers ; what inspection where they subjected to in Sydney ? Only the inspection involved in the examination of the different pieces before they were put into their proper places. It was seen that they were alright and sound. 7865. It would only be a cursory examination ? Oh, iio. The different pieces could be examined in this way : Take the wheels ; they were all completed when we got them. We could not see the process by which they were made ; we could not see whether the iron that was put into then| was clean iron or not, or whether the scrap was properly worked ; and the same applies to the axle. We could not tell whether there was any foreign matter in them. All we could do was to judge by appearances, but as far as possible, with- out actually breaking the iron, we examined them as carefully as we could. 7866. Then, practically, it was not possible to subject them to any other inspection than that involved in looking at them before they were put on the road ? Quite so. That was the only inspection that in the nature of things could take place here. 7867. And is that the only inspection that could be given to that kind of work after it arrived ? Tes ; that is so. 7868. There could not be any other ? No. 7869. What is the inspection that is given to engines being built in England by Sir John Eowler ? When these things are being manufactured in England, Sir John Eowler or his assistants inspect them when they are in the rough. That is before the machine itself has been made out of the raw material. The inspection that he carries out is an inspection in detail before the parts are finished, and whilst they are being made. 7870. Then would he see the engines tested after they were made ?- Tes ; he would see them tested in the maker's works. He would first of all see the different pieces tested, and then he would see the engines tested in the maker's yard under steam or on rollers. They very frequently test engines on rollers, and consequently the inspection that the Baldwin engines underwent here is similar to the subse- quent pat't of the inspection in England, ij 7871. So that no matter what kind of examination you had submitted the engines to here, you could not have discovered'the (jiefects that subsequently manifested themselves P Tou could not have discovered them in the course of the examination in the works. They were defects that could only manifest them- selves after the engines had once began to run. We saw that there was a roughness about the wheels which we did not like ; but after examining them as closely as we possibly could without pulling the wheels to pieces, we saw that therb was no actual unsoundness, and satisfied ourselves that the flaws were only apparent flaws — not real ones. t j • o tvt 7872. It would not have been a wise thing to have submitted the axles to the drop test, would it f No ; I do not think thfere was anything in their appearance to justify it. 7873. Although it became necessary to do it afterwards? Tes ; it did become necessary to test the axles subsequently. i_ , . i i •7874. I am speaking about the axles ? There was nothing to show any want of soundness about the axles when we examined them before putting the parts together. It was only after the engines had once began to run that the flaws were discoverable. 7875. 252 BALBWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. 7875. How many axles would there be in these thirty locomotives? There were twenty-four axles J[]^^J^™^' similar to those that broke, and there are also forty-eight tender axles. 26l^y^2. ^^^^- ^^^ *^^y ®®°'i y"'^ ^^y ^P^^® ^^^^ ^ ^^ ' ^^'^ ^^^ °° ^P.'^'"® '^^'®^- ^® ^^^ duphcate wheels and ' * axles, but ho axles alone, except those that were ia the locomotives. 7877. Well, would it not have been judicious to have tested one of these at any rate for what it was worth? No ; I do not think it was at all required, because we did not suspect that there was any want of soundness or strength about the engines. There was nothing to indicate that there was, and it has not been the practice to test new finished axles as you suggest. Such a thing has never been done. 7878. Did you see Dr. Williams when you were in America ? Tes, 1 did. 7879. Did he say anything to you about the engines that were being ordered by the Eail way Commis- sioners ; — did he compare them in any way with the Baltimore and Ohio engines ? No. 7880. Had you any conversation with him about it ? No ; I did not know anything about the Baltimore and Ohio engines at that time. 7881. Did you not know about the alteration in the specification of the engines ordered by the Eail way Commissioners, and the fact that the Baldwin Company had recommended that they should have been built from the same model as the Baltimore and Ohio engine ? I inquired about the specifications when I went to the works, and they showed me some of the correspondence. 7882. And did they not say anything about the alterations that were being made ? No._ 7883. They did not refer to the fact that the Railway Commissioners wanted an alteration in the tyi)e of engine, and that the Baldwin Company recommended them to take a Baltimore and Ohio engine ? No ; they did not. • 7884. Mr. Hoi/le.'] Were the Consolidation goods engines here before the Beyer and Peacock express engines ? I think they were. 7885. Were they running before the Manchester engines arrived ? I think some of them were. 7886. But were the twenty in work before the Beyer and Peacock express engines arrived in the Colony ? I think they were, but I am not very sure. 7887. Was it very long after the Baldwin express engines began to work that the Beyer and Peacock engines came ? Tou are speaking of the Consolidation engines now, are you not ? 7888. Tes ? No ; not very long after. 7889. There was a loose wheel on engine 45(), was there not. That is the engine that the members of the Commission saw when they went to the workshops at Eveleigh. Could not that wheel have been put into the furnace to show whether those roughnesses that you speak of in the wheels were real flaws or only apparent cracks ? Tes ; no doubt it could have been put into the furnace, but, as a matter of fact, we want to use the wheel again, and do not wish to injure it. 7890. It would not have hurt it at all, and it would have been just as well to make perfectly sure ? Tes ; I think it might have hurt it. At all events, I do not think it would be a wise thing to do. If it were a wheel that we did not want to use again we might have done it, buOj as a matter of fact, if the spokes are going they will show it. I have no doubt you are aware that we often have spokes broken on the wheels of engines. I have seen an engine with three or four spokes broken in one wheel, and there has been no risk whatever. It is not at all an uncommon thing for the spokes of wheels to crack. Tou hear them jingle just as you hear the wheel of a car or a buggy jingle if its spokes were broken. There are scores of locomotives running that way. 7891. Do you not take them out when they are running like that ? No. 7892. Mr. Brown.~\ I know there are not scores of buggies running like that. If the spokes of a buggy wheel break we soon get them repaired ? Unless there are a large number of spokes broken in one wheel we never think of throwing the wheel away. 7893. Mr. Hoyle.'] Tes ; but in that engine. No. 447, more than two-thirds of the spokes in the wheel appear to be cracked. Supposing that the tire of that wheel was to break if the spokes are really cracked as they certainly appear to be, would there not be a liability of their giving way? No ; I do not apprehend any danger whatever, because I do not think those are cracks. The marks that you see are fins. When the iron is in a molten state, and being pressed into a mould, a thin film always squeezes over the colder parts of the wheel, and that is exactly what has taken place there. Those apparent cracks that you saw are simply thin films of iron squeezed over the spokes of the wheel. 7894. Mr. HoyleP\ At all events one or two of them sounded decidedly bad when they tried them with the hammer. 7895. President (to Witness).] The thin film, looking as though you could dig a knife into it is whatyou call a fin ? Tes ; that is the technical name given to the thin pieces of iron which overlap the spokes in some cases, but I do not think for a moment that these could be regarded as broken spokes — not at present, at all events. 7896. Mr. Hoyle.'] Would they not be Kable to brea,k sooner than the ordinary English spokes ? That I cannot say. I have not had any experience of these wheels, and there is one thing that must be regarded as a set-off to the roughness of manufacture. The English wheel, although it may be stronger, is built in various pieces, whilst these wheels are made of rolled bars. They are continuous, and as rolled bars the spokes would no doubt be stronger per square inch of section than as though they were built up, as is done in the case of English wheels, and therefore I should not be surprised to find that as a matter of fact they will last very well although they are light. 7897. Can you give us the height of the Baldwin engine from the rail to the top of t"he cab. Mr. Gregory's report states that the measurement from the rail to the top of the gauge on the cab is 12 ft. 6 in., whilst that shown on the sketch put in evidence by the Railway Commissioners is 12 ft. 3 in. ; — would that be the distance from the rail to "the widest portion of the cab — 12 ft. 6 in. ? I have not the dimensions with me so I cannot say, but I will get them for you, and send them to you. 7898. Thank you ; you see, in this case Mr. Eddy put in a diagram of a Mann car, to show that we had a vehicle wider than the cab of the Baldwin engines on the line before the Baldwin engines arrived, but I maintain that whether it would foul the structures on the stations or not depends entirely on the height of its widest point from the rail. The cab of a Baldwin engine may foul a structure by reason of its being higher than the Mann car. The height of the widest portion of the rail of the Mann car is 9 ft. 6f inches, and the cab of a Baldwin engine is 9 feet 5f inches ; but according to Mr. Gregory's report the widest point of the Baldwin engine would be 12 feet 6 inches from the top of the rail, wherea ! the iJann BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIRY COMMISSION-— MINUTES OP ETIDENOE. -253 Mann car is only 11 feet and | inch. Therefore the Mann car, although wider, would go clear of the Mr. structure, whereas the cab of a Baldwin engine, being higher, might foul the structure, so that there is W. Thow. really no analogy between the two. The statement that Mr. Eddy made with regard to a vehicle wider '"TT^^""'^ than the Baldwin engines running clear of the structures before they were altered is nothing more than ^^ ^^^' ^^^^• a broad assertion without any point in it ? I cannot give you any information upon the. point at present. 7899. Can -you tell me whether this [proi/ucinff a diagram of engine 132, class J\, was the widest engine you had in the -service before the Baldwin engine came ? Yes. 7900. And that engine is wider over the cylinders than a Baldwin engine. According to the measure- ment it is not ;— will you give me the measurement ? Nine feet three and a half inches. 7901. The measurement of a Baldwin engine is 9 feet 4<| inches? Tes ; but that measurement is taken from the altered dimensions. They were to be within those dimensions. 7902. Nine feet three inches ? The drawing shows 9 feet 3 inches, so that the engine ought to be within that dimension. 7903. And the engines to which you have just referred (No. 132, class J.), have been running on the western road for many years. They are 9 feet 3i inches according to their drawing dimensions, but this 9 feet 4 inches is a variation due to the workshops, and not to designs ? Quite so ; but it is a variation all, the same. 7904. Can you tell me whether this engine carries her cylinders higher than that ? The cylinders in the passenger engine will be higher than these, but in the consolidation goods engine they are about the same level. Perhaps the new Consolidation engines may be a little lower in the cylinders. 7905. Mr. Brown.'] What is the value in money of one of these axles — say, a tender axle ? About £7. 7906. And of a driving axle ? The driving axles have not given any trouble to us. 7907. No ; but I am only asking for my own information. I wanted to know what was about their com- mercial value ? The driving axle would be worth about £24 or £25 when put into the wheel. 7908. Mr. Hoyle.'] The Baldwin engines were narrower in the cab, I presume ? I think they would have a smaller cab on the J class. 7909. I notice here, by Mr. liobertson's report, that the cab of a Baldwin engine fouls several times in the coal-stages, particularly against the Bathurst coal-stage. Mr. Eobinson showed where the cab fouled, so I suppose it must be lower than the cabs of the other engines? Tes ; it is a smaller cab. Charles Hursthouse Stanger recalled : — 7910. Mr. Fehon ] Mr. Stanger has already stated the position he occupies in the Service. From certain Mr. C. H, questions asked by Mr. Iloyle during this inquiry, it appears that surprise is experienced in some quarters Stanger. that the Baldwin passenger engines have required assistance in working the mail and passenger trains /'— ^-«— "^s between Penrith and Katoomba. Will you kindly tell us what the facts are ? Well, I never expected ^6 May, 1892. that the Baldwin passenger engine would work the mail between Penrith and Katoomba without assistance. I never expected that she would take over a load of 124 tons up the mountain grades, and I knew that the mail would never be kept down to that load. The minimum weight of the Western mail-train, as it is now made up, is about 140 tons. 7911. Professor Warren?^ One hundred and forty tons you say ? Tes. 7912. Ton are sure of it, I suppose ? Tes ; though I shoulinot like to be bound by a cwt. or two ; but I know it is approximately that. 7913. It is not 144 tons, is it? Oh, no; certainly not. One hundred and forty tons represent the minimum train that we can run as the Western mail, I always thought that we should have to assist the mail-trains to Katoomba every night. 7914. Mr. Fehon.] Tou were one of the officers who advised the Commissioners in regard to the ordering of these Baldwin engines, were you not ? Tes. 7915. Tou know the conditions that were first of all put before the Baldwin Company. In those conditions we stated that we expected the engines to do a certain thing ? Tes. 7916. And are they really doing that ? Tes. 7917. President.'] What 'did you expect them to do ? 7918. Have your expectations been fulfilled ? Fully. 7919. President.] Wait one moment, what did you expect them to do. Let us have that point fairly defined ? I only tried to estimate their load for goods trains at slow speed. I did not go very much into the question of their loads at high speeds, but when we first put them into the service on the passenger trains between Sydney and Newcastle, I then tried them with a load of a little over 160 tons. 7920. Professor TVarren.] On wha^; grades? 1 in 40, and to make time with that train, a man ought to get up the Hawkesbury bank, the most severe grade between here and Newcastle, at certainly not less than 15 miles an hour. 1Q2\.. President.] Have you looked at the correspondence. As I take it, there is no contract whatever between you and the Baldwin Company as to the speed which it is expected these engines will run ? No ; I understandnot. 7922. If you look at the correspondence you will see that you say you expect them to do one thing, and the Baldwin Company write to you to say that, inasmuch as you altered the specifications, they could not guarantee the speed. Subsequently to that, however, you wrote to them saying that you expected them to do a certain thing. It may be that in the letter, in which Mr. McLachlan said, " We calculate that to take a train up the 130-feet grade at 22 miles an hour, will require about 50 indicated horse-power less than is wanted by the Baltimore and Ohio engines during its maximum work, and as in our weight (176 for the train, 176 tons gross, exclusive of engine and tender) we include an ample allowance for the weight of paesenger and baggage, we anticipate that the engine will be fully equal to this performance." In that letter, it may be that you were only writing to the Baldwin Company, as business people doing your best to get the most you could for your money, and that whilst you stated that you expected the engines to do this you had calculated upon being satisfied with something less than that. What I want to know is what you actually expected, no matter what you may have said in the course of your correspondence with the Company that you expected ? j^, i ^.j. r 7923. Mr. Brown.] I believe if you ask Mr. Stanger he will tell you that he never saw the letter from which you have just quoted until the correspondence was printed ? It is quite true that I did not see the 254 BAMTVIN- LOCOMOTITES IKQUIET COMMISSION — MrUTJTES OT ETTDEIirCE. Mf- C- H. letter at the time it was written, and was quite ignorant of the fact that it had been sent. I was consulted btdngM>. ^^ ^p whether the engines should be ordered, and also as to the specifications, and after that I do not 26^»Iaf~i892 ^^''ollect seeing any of the papers or having anything to do with the Baldwin Company. ' ■ 7924'. Presiderd.'] 'Ihen what do you expect the engines to do? 7925. Professor IFarren.l ICO tons he said. 7926. Mr. Brown.] Thatla what he told them when they were ordering the engines, but as a matter of fact what did you expect them to do Mr. Stanger, at the time you ordered them what did you thihk they would do ? I thought they would take 196 tons up 1 in 40 at the rate of 15 miles an hour. 7927. JUr. FeJion.] Which engine ? 1 am referring to the Baldwin passenger engine. 7928. President] Will they do that ? I think so. 7929. Professor Warren.] Mr. Stanger did not order the engines, we must remember that it was the Commissioners who ordered the engines, and therefore it was not what Mr. Stanger expected them to do but what the Commissioners expected. 7930. President.] Exactly, but entirely in consequence of a report by Mr. Stanger ; — subsequently the Secretary wrote to the Baldwin Company without consulting Mr. Stanger, and we know what was stated in that letter, but what I want to find out now is what Mr. Stanger, as the person who put the Commissioners in motion expected ? Well, I expected them as I have just said to take 19G tons up 1 ia 40 at a speed of 15 miles an hour. I expected a tractive power of a little over 19,433, but I then had to assume the pressure on the cylinders. 7931. Professor Warren.] What did you assume as the pressure on the cylinders ? I assumed it at 128. 7932. That is the mean pressure on the cylinders ? That is what I assumed. I am not quite sure of th6 exact figures, I have not got my note-book with me. 7933. Of course you assume that you had a full load, and were giving the engine as much pressure as you could ? Tes. 7934. Mr. Felwn'.] Have your expectations been fulfilled by the performance of these engines? QuitS, in fact I think the passenger engines are taking a larger load than I expected they would be. I first of all thought they would take 12l! tons, but we have since made them take 132 tons as a regular load, and if on a nne day a driver told me that he could take more than that load without an assistant engine I should have no hesitation in letting him do so. I would be quite willing to let a driver try an extra 8 tons over the mountain grades. 7935. Tou use a Consolidation engine on the mail-train, and that is the result of a recent idea, and is intended to avoid assistant mileage, and not at all because you were disappointed in the Baldwin passenger engiries not taking the mail without assistance ? Tes. 7936. What was your object in using a goods engine ? It was done with the idea of saving assistant mileage with the mail-trains to the extent of about 10,000 miles a year, and light return mileage to the same extent, or in other words with the idea of saving 20,000 useless engine miles in every year. I madfe the proposal and felt perfectly certain that it would answer, "because the speed of the mail-train is necessarily slow up the steep grades to Katoomba. I was allowed a trial, and I think it has been very successful. We are now taking the very heavy mail-trains up without assistance. 7937. It was not that you were disappointed with the Baldwin passenger engines ? No ; I have already said that I did not expect the Baldwin passenger engine to take more than 124 tons. I think that thfe rfeport that I addressed to Mr. Thow explained distinctly that the chief object I had in view was the saving of so much unnecessary mileage. 7938. And the assistant engine usually returns from Katoomba light? Yes. 7939. AVhy is that ? That is inevitable. We must of necessity have some engines running light from Katoomba to Penrith, because an engine can bring a much heavier load back to Penrith than it can take from Penrith to Katoomba. 7940. One of the witnesses, Driver Gasgoine, was asked if there was not a special quality of coal kept at P(3nrith for the Consolidation engines. What are the facts? ' It is a fact to some extent ; but I think that G-asgoine would have been fairer if hb had said that the special quality of coal was kept for the mail- trains. ' 7941. Professor Warren.] He did say that as a matter of fact, I remember that his said although he drove a Consolidation engine himself he did not get the special coal and would like to get it. 7942. Witness.] Well, as a matter of fact we have abandoned that arrangement, because now the mail Consolidation engine uses mountain coal for the mail-train — the best mountain coal it is true, but not the rich southern coal. 7943. Has the working of the Consolidation engine on the mail-train been satisfactory ? I should like here to make a statement giving a history of the mail working between Penrith and Diibbo. Before the Baldwin passenger engines came into use, the maximum load for one engin.e on the passenger traiiis, between Penrith and- Katoomba was equal to 104 tons, and even this load on the ihail-train had to be reduced to 96 tons just before last Christmas, owing to the 436 class engines not being in very good con- dition. Excepting when the mail-train was divided and run in two divisions from Penl'ith, the 436 class engines invariably required assistance from Penrith to Katoomba, and when the load exceeded 130 tons, which was of frequent occurence, a pilot engine had to go on to Wallerawang. This was a very expensive matter owing to the difficulty in getting a return load for the engines. Occasionally the pilot engine had to go on to Bathurst, and then unless the load could be reduced at Bathlirst station an. assistant engine was reqilired to assist the train from Bathurst to Dubbo. The load for this class of engine frciin Katoomba td Dubbo being the same. For the up journey from Dlibbo, the locomotive foretnanj at Dubbo, had always to be prepared with an assistant engine in case the load exceeded equal to about 130 tons. The sdme applied to Bathurst. At Wallerawang the liability to require an assistant engine was so great that both men and engines had to be provided and held in readiness until the mail-train had gone past, in case it was required to assist the mail to Clarence siding. All of this is now done away with since we have had the larger engines to use for the mail service. I do not know arly case in which we have assisted the larger engines. 7944. Mr. Pehon^ Has there been any instance in which the Consolidation engine, foi: some reason or other, was prevented from joining its train and two other engines had to take the mail ? A Consolidatioti engine failed one night. There tvas a slight mishap when it was coming out of the shed yard, there was ' a load that night of abotlt 148 tons, and as the Consolidation engine was not available we had to put on BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IITQUIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 255 on two of the 304 class Mogul engines, and those two engines lost time. I feel confident in my own Mr. C. H. mind that if the Consolidation engine had been running the train instead of losing time it would have Stanger. made time with that load. It is true that they had to make an extra stop at Wentworth Ealls, hut apart or'TT^'"^, from that the two engines made a loss of ten minutes. ^o !»^ayj^Q»^- 7945. Then as a matter of fact you believe that a Consolidation engine would not only have kept time, but would have made time with that load ? Tes, I think so. The time allowed between Penrith and Katoomba is much less than it was a year ago, and I tlunlt we send a heavy train away with the Con- solidation engine with more likelihood of its reaching Katoomba to time than if we were using two engines. 7946. In questions to Mr. Howe, Nos. 1129, li:W, and 1132, of the printed evidence, Mr. Hoyle refers to the fact thart the wheels of some of the passenger engines having to be put in the lathe to be turned up shortly after the engines commenced to run, and asked if it were due to any failure of the brake-gear or to carelessness on the part of the drivers. What are the facts ? That was not owing to a failure of the brake gear. The engine had to have the large coupled wheels taken out and put into the lathe. The fact wa;S, that the driver had to do sometljing to avert a collision. He allowed his train to go into the station too fast, and seeing something ahead of him was obliged to put the brakes on, and I think apply the reversing-gear and that made the wheels skid. 7947. And of course produced a flat place on the tires ? Tea. The man did the proper thing under the circumstances only that he should not have allowed his engine to run into the station 'so fast. 7948. What was the practice when the Commissioners took office with regard to working heavy trains, when although not sufficient to make two trains the load was beyond the power of one engine, and when a' portion could not be left for a considerable time, such traffic as for instance live stock ? We wore not allowed to make up a train of more than 50 per cent, above one engine's load ; that is to say, that two engines would have to take a train with only a, load equal to one and a-half of the engine-power, and that, of course, meant a great deal of waste in engine-power, particularly in the case of live stock. What I mean is this, if there were forty trucks to be moved, and that represented the power of two engines, we would only be allowed to haul thirty with the two engines. 7949. And has the use of the Baldwin engines entirely remedied that defect ? Tes, before we got the Baldwin engines, the Chief Commissioner was, I think it must have been, so disgusted at seeing the number of small trains that were going along one night that when I explained to him on one of the Western tours that we were prohibited putting more than 50 per cent, of the assistant engine's power into a train he consulted with Mr. Kirkcaldie'as to whether we could not put a double load on. I demurred a little at first, because I thought that with the slack Couplings there would be a difficulty in doing so, but it was ultimately decided that if the combined power of the two engines was forty, we might put thirty-seven on, and that the couplings should always be screw connections when that was done. The result was, in my opinion, very successful as an expedient until we got the large Baldwin engines, which take almost the double load. The double load.is twenty-six of sheep and two brake vans. The Baldwin engines take twenty-five of sheep and two brake vans. 7950. Ton stated in your evidence, when called by Mr. Hoyle, that you considered the Baldwin engines, which are the subject of this inquiry, compare favourably as regards the cost of repairs with other American engines that you have had experience of ; — how do they compare as regards failures on the road ? I have ijpade a short return in regard to that. There is one thing I should lilto to niention. I intended to have done so when you asked me the last question. That was that I consider that doing away with the two engines, and having one powerful engine, has been a very great improvement in our working as far as hrake and draw-gear goes. When working the trains with two engines we used to have a great many broken couplings between the two engines. Now that we have only one engine that is done away with. Then again, I think that one driver taking control of the whole train is likely to be more careful in handling the train than two drivers with two engines can possibly be. 7951. Of course it conduces to economy of working the traffic? It must be a very great advantage to the traffic in that respect. About these failures I have taken from our monthly returns for the lastthrep months particulars with regard to the failures in the best used American engines — the 304 class engine, built by the Baldwin Co., and known as the Mogul engine, the improved 304 class engine, built by Dubs and Co., and the 446 " O" class engines, built by the Baldwin Co. From these returns I get the following facts :— That the ten Baldwin engines of the 304 class '-L" show an average for the last three months of one failure for every 4,466 miles run ; ten Dubs engines " L" 4,366 class show an average for the three months of one failure for every 3,076 miles run ; and the twelve Baldwin engines of "O" 446 class show an average for the three months of one failure forjevery 7,431 miles run. Of course it is fair to say that the Baldwin passenger was a new engine, but on the other hand that has been a reason for the failures in many instances. We blame it for being a new engine. The other engine — the 436 class, built by Dubs & Co., known by the men as the Scotch-Tankees, have been through the shop very recently, and have in consequence, I think, been in very fair order, and I also think that the engines built by the Baldwin Co., arid known as the " L" 304 class, have been in very fair order during the last three months. I could have given details with regard to other engines, but as the Scotch Tankees were not in good order, I did not consider it fair to include them in the comparison. 7952. Professor Warren.] Do you consider that a fair return ? Tes, I do. I have also compared the new Consolidation goods engines, with the old goods engines purchased from the Baldwin Company, and this is what I find. The average in the case of eleven of the old engines for the last three months was one failure for every 3,386 miles, whilst the average in the case of the twenty new Consolidation engines for the three months was one failure for every 7,848 miles. I attribute' that to the fact that the new engines are of a better design than the old ones. Of course we have had a large experience, and were satisfied that the new ones would be an improvement. 7953. Mr. Fehon.'] All the Baldwin engines are in your charge ? Tes ; with the exception of one, and it is working ballast on the South Coast line. 7954. With that exception, all the Baldwin engines are in your charge ? Tes ; I think so. 7955. Tou are in constant communication with the inspectors and drivers who work these engines ? Tes. 7956. What is the general opinion as to their suitability for the service they are m? I have never heard anything but great praise of the passenger engines given to them by the driver even at the time when we had serious trouble witli the axles breaking. The drivers said that they were sorry to lose thepi and. 256 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQTIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. C. H. and would be glad to have them back again. Since we have put in the axles the drivers like them very htanger. ^g|j^ ^^^^ speak highly of them. "With regard to the goods engines I thought the drivers would not 26Mav"l892 ^^^^ i^e^ so well, but to my surprise they spoke very highly of them. The only one I have heard speak ^' ■ against them is G-ascoigne, who was brought here by Ma-. Hoyle. 1 am surprised at that, because I have met him often, and he has said nothing about themto me. I think G-ascoigne must have been unfortu- nate in a few trips and got down-hearted about them. The motion, I think, is less than it would be with a lighter engine. 7957: President^ G-ascoigne, I think, said that the engines were not good for the hea.lth, as they were a little hot ? Well, I have ridden with the drivers of the engines, and travelled long distances with them. It is true that they are hot, but then every locomotive is hot on the foot-plate. They are certainly not the coolest engine I have been on ; but I do not think they are more hot than the old express engine — the four-wheeled couple. 7958. President.'] It is part of the driver's contract to live a rather hot life ? Yes ; he accepts that as part of the conditions. 7959. Mr. Felion.'] One of the charges made before this Compiission is that "The Baldwin engines are too wide for the platforms ;" you have heard what has been said on the subject ; — can you give us any information as to whether you have had any difficulty in the past in working other engines on any portions of the line ? Tes, I can. It is more than two years ago now since I wished to put the Mogul engine on the Northern mail service at Murrurundi to go on to Werris Creek with a mixed train. I had only just been put in charge of the Northern line, and was rather strange to it, and somebody reminded me that before using wide engines I had better look out for the platforms. Then I got templets made showing the width of the Mogul engine, and sent them up to the inspectors of Newcastle and "Murrurundi, asking them to bolt them to the buffer beam of an engine working a slow train, and report to me if they fouled any of the platforms. They were to run them over the line and allow the drivers to measure the distance betw^een the platform and the templet and report to me whether they fouled or not. This was quite early in 1890 I got that report, and the work required seemed to me to be so much that I dropped my intention of using these engines, and made shift with the Vulcan class. 7960. President.'] You refer to the work of altering the platform ? Yes ; the Baldwin engines had not been thought of. "We expected to get engines from an English syndicate. After the Baldwin engines had been ordered I was asked by the Commissioners to reduce the assistant mileage that was being run with the Northern mail-train. Almost night after night we ran two engines with the mail-train to "Werris Creek, and the Commissioners, upon receiving that statement said, " We have powerful engines and ought to use them," and I said that they might be used on the Northern line if the platforms were altered. That was then done, and these engines were used very successfully on the line between Singleton and Werris Creek. 7961. This was in 1 890 H Yes, it was early in 1890 that I put the templet on. Towards the end of 1890 I sent in a report as to the alterations that would be required. I was compelled to ask for these plat- forms to be altered. I did not know much about the llichmond line but I was not able to "work the American engines which had been imported at that time until some of the platforms had been altered. It is well known that on the Western line the roads were slewed in front of some of the stations. When I went to Wellington in 1884 I saw that the line had been slewed in front of the station 6 inches, and upon making inquiry I was told that it was to make room for the Baldwin engines which were then running. 7962. Mr. Felum.'] "When was that ? In 1884, or rather before that. I think I was stationed there in 1884. 7963. These alterations of platforms have been going on more or less since 1884 ? Yes, slewing rails and so forth. 7964. From your experience of these engines and from what you have heard do you consider that they are suitable for the permanent ways of New South Wales ? Yes, I do. I have heard a great deal of the evidence here. On all the occasions that I have ridden on the engines and when I knew that I was going over roads laid with the lightest rails we have I have not experienced the slightest uneasiness. It never occurred to me that there was a disproportion between the weight of the engines and the rails. I am not a civil engineer and therefore I have not gone into the question of roads in any scientific sense, but as I have stated I never in travelling on these engines felt the slightest fear with regard to their safety. At the same time I should not care to run them at a very high speed on that portion of the road that lies between Newcastle and Maitland, but I do not think we do that as a matter of fact. 7965. Mr. Hoyle.] I do not think this statement is of any value whatever. In any comparative state- ment it is only fair to state what the failures were. You may have a pin falling oiit or an axle breaking ; two very different things in relative importance. There are failures and failures. So far as I am con- cerned, I think this is a very misleading statement. It would be much better in a statement of this kind to include all the details and as it is I must regard it as a very misleading statement ? It is very kind of you Mr. Hoyle to remind me of my omission. I should have said that this statement includes every failure that has caused any delay to the traffic. 7966. I think it ought to be stated what the failure was ? One class of failure only has been kept out, and I thought it only fair to keep it out. I refer to failures to keep time owing to bad coal, every other failure that has effected the traffic has been included. 7967. Mr. Hoyle.] Quite so, but I think it would be fair to both sides if the particular nature of each failure was stated. 7968. President.] Mr. Hoyle says that whether it is the breaking of the reversing-gear, draw-gear, axle, or anything else, it should be stated in detail. 7969. Witness.] I meant to say that the statement included everything that happened to the engines, such as the breaking of axles and everything else. 7970. Mr. Hoyle.] Mr. Thow, who vacated that chair just before you took it said that the " Scotch Yankee" engines were giving no trouble ? Neither are they at the present time. 7971. You have compiled a statement in the last three months, and by that statement you show that these engines are really giving more trouble than the Baldwin ? During the last month they have not given much trouble. We have put them through the shops and they do their work very well. 7972. Professor 'Warren.] Mr. Thow said that a' great deal of money had been spent on these engines? Yes, and it is since the money has been spent upon them that they have given no trouble. 7973. President.] That is evidently so. ■ 7974. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUmY COMMISSION— MINOTES OF ETIDENCi:.- ^257 7974. Mr. Hoyle.] What I complain of is that in a statement purporting to be a comparison of the various Mr. engines certain details have been given in one case and not in another ? Ton cannot complain of that ^- H- Stangor. in this instance, because everything is given, each class of engines have been treated alike. ^C^T^'^^ 7975. Mr. Thowhas_ already promised to submit an amended return with these details, and to put in the ^^ J>iay,1892. figures we require in regard to these statements, stating what the repairs were, and how they have happened. 7976. Professor Warren.] I did not understand him to say, that I think ^e said he might do so. I do not know whether he will or not. 7977. Mr. Fehon.'] I think it comes back to what I said before. Only failures of construction should be considered by the Commission. If there are faults in construction, let them be given by all means. Such details as Mr. Hoyle talks of — hot-boxes, &c. — will happen anywhere ; if there are errors of construction, well, let me know, but it is useless spending time by going intb petty details of this kind. 7978. Fresident.'] Surely if the more important things were set out Mr. Hoyle would be satisfied. Engines, I understand, go into the workshops for all sorts of little things. 7979. Mr.Koyle^ No ; there is the distinction; small repairs are attended to in the running-shops between the trips of the engines. They only go into the workshops for important repairs ; the workshop repairs are comprehensive repairs. 7980. President.] Ton want to show, Mr. Hoyle, that there are repairs necessitated by defective designs ; will it answer your purpose if you have a statement of all repairs that have been necessitated by defective design ? 7981. Mr. Soyle.] Yes ; and of failures which ought not to occur in engines so new as these are. 7982. It says distinctly in the charge, " failures of construction." 7983. Fresident.] Surely it would be enough for Mr. Hoyle if he got that. I mean the statement I have referred to. If we keep on multiplying the arguments it will be interminable. 7984. Mr. Soi/le.] I only want one report, and that is to be comprehensive. If it is to be a comparative statement, let it be one giving the details in each case. 7985. Mr. Fehon.] I do not see any necessity for a comparative report ; why should we have one ? 7986. There is nothing in making a comparative report which will give you no information ; why compare the " Scotch Yankees " or others with any other' class of engine ; it will lead to no decision 7987. Mr. Soyle.] "Well, if it is a mistake it is one of your own department. 7988. Mr. Fehon.] Very well, then, we will withdraw the statement. 7989. Witness.] The reason why wo made this comparative statement was that when I was previously examined I told Mr. Hoyle that these engines did not give us any more trouble than other American engines we have had ; that is why I supplied this comparative statement. Every failure is noted in that list that caused a stoppage of the traffic, because the stoppage in the traffic had necessitated a loss of time. Every failure, whether great or small, is entered there. 7990. Mr. Frown.] I understand that Mr. Hoyle is dissatisfied with the report; suppose we let it be left out altogether. 7991. President.] Very well, then, we won't have it put in evidence unless you want it put in Mr. Hoyle ; shall we leave it out altogether ? 7992. Mr. Soyle.] I do not want it in that form ; it will be very much more satisfactory to have it inclusive of the cause of the failure, but as I say, I did not ask for it. 7993. Witness.^ As I have said before, I only drew up tfais statement because I thought I had committed myself to certain facts when last examined, and I "was desirous of doing what I could to substantiate those statements. 7994. Professor Warren.] You want a statement of repairs to be put in. 7995. Mr. Fehon.] I do not think it is at all necessary. 7996. Mr. Frown.] But I am afraid they have already decided that it should be supplied. 7997. Mr. Fehon ^ I do not object to a statement of that kind being made, and it was only with the idea of shortening the inquiry that I spoke. 7998. Mr. Hoyle.] I do not think I can ask Mr. Stanger any more questions. 7999. Professor Warren.] You say that you took a load of 195 tons at a rate of 15 miles an hour as a basis of your test. Of course you have not read the correspondence — I mean you only saw it in this room, and not before ? Yes. FBIBAY, 27 MAY, 1892. \_TUe Commission met in the Foard-room, Colonial Secretary's Office, at 2 p.m.] r. E. EOGEES, Esq., Q.C, President. Peofessoh WAREEN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDER BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P. 8000. Mr. Felwn.] Mr. Thow, who made a slight mistake in his evidence yesterday with reference to the tests which took place in connection with the rail broken at Tarana, wishes to correct what he stated. He is present. Will the Commission permit him to make the correction he desires ? 8001. President.] Certainly. William Thow recalled : — 8002. President.] I understand, Mr. Thow, that you want to correct an error in the evidence you gave Mr. yesterday with reference to the rail broken at the Tarana accident. I believe you had not your notes W. Thow. when you were here yesterday ? No. a^7~M~'^^n 8003. You found, I understand, that the rail you said was broken and submitted to a test, and which 27 May. 1892. was fractured by a fall of from 6 to 12 iflches, -nfas not tfie rail in question, but wother taken from a 6—2 K ' scrap 258 .BALDWIN LOCOMOXIVES IlfQTJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. Mr.W.Thow. scrap-heap. Will you explain what took place with regard to the Tarana rail and the tests yon applied 'Ty'-^ to it ? We tested two pieces of that rail. There was only one drop test applied to the first piece, and £J May, 1892. j^ y^^^^^ ^-^^ ^ f^^j^ ^^ ^ f^^^ 2^ inches. It broke very freely. 8004. Professor Warren.'] That was the worse of the two, I take it ? Yes ; the first we tested. It had only one blow. . 8005. It broke with a test then of 4-3 foot tons ? Tes ; that would be about it. We then tested the second piece of the same rail, and subjected it to four blows, 1, 2, 3, and 6 feet falls, and it broke very freely under the last blow (6 feet) . 8006. That equals 12 foot tons ? 6 foot tons, I think. 8007. Tes ; 6 foot tons is the final blow ? It broke very freely. That is all I have to correct. 8008. The President.'] Mr. Hoyle wanted a copy of the Western load table ? Tes ; I hand that in. 8009. I understand, Mr. Thow, that yesterday you undertook to give Mr. Hoyle the height of the cab of the American passenger engine from the rail. I understand you to say in the paper before me that the height is 12 feet 2 inches at the sides, and 13 feet in the middle. 8010. Mr. Soyle.] That is 12 feet 2 inches from the rail to the highest point ? Tes. 8011. Professor Warren.] I see, Mr. Thow, that your name is attached to the report of tests I have before me. In it I see a statement that looks like a bending test, is that so ? The first table in that statement relates to the hydraulic test, and the second is the falling-weight test. 8012. Mr. Fehon.] With regard to Messrs. Pollock and Kidd's original report of the trial of tests made at the desire of the Commission upon a recent occasion, I desire to state that Mr. Pollock is now present, and I wish to call him in order to answer any questions the Commission may desire to put to him. 8013. Professor Warren.] Unfortunately I have not had an opportunity of reading that report ; perhaps you can call another witness first. 8014. Mr. Soyle.] I wish to explain before that is done that a minute was asked for by me yesterday in connection with the cost-book which has been produced before this Commission. I notice on a page where the entry of the alteration I have referred to, made for the purpose of permitting the Baldwin engines to pass, that minute is given as D.E. 91-1048, but on getting that minute, at least one bearing that number, I iind that it has got no reference whatever to this matter ; therefore the minute that has been handed in to me is of no use. 8015. President.] What oflicer handed that in ? 8016. Mr. Brown.] Do you want that paper, Mr. Hoyle ? 8017. Mr. Soyle.] I did want it, but I will not press for it now. 8018. Mr. Fehon.] Tou will have Mr. Halligan recalled, and you can question him about it. 8019. Mr. Brown.] Where was it obtained from ? 8020. Mr. Pehon.] Bathurst. 8021. Mr. Soyle.] It should be Newcastle. I think I can explain how the mistake arose. I asked for a copy of the report sent to the Engineer for Existing Lines made by Mr. Watson with reference to the effect of the Baldwin engines upon the road. Mr. Watson is the divisional engineer at Bathurst. Probably this number has been sent to him by mistake. The telegram for the minute I asked for should have been sent to Newcastle. 8022. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Halligan will be called presently, and perhaps he will be able to give you some information upon the point. Edwin MoUoy Halligan recalled : — Mr. B. M, 8023. Mr. Soyle.] I wish to point out that certain questions were asked Mr. Halligan relative to altera- Halligan. tions to platforms. The answers to those questions did not seem to me to correspond with the entries in / """ — ^ the cost-book of alterations made in his district, and I wish to recall him in order that he may have an 27 May, 1892. opportunity of correcting that evidence, or explaining the discrepancy between it and the entries in the cost-book. He may have given the statements contained in his evidence from memory, which was only partially correct, and I therefore thought it right that he should now have an opportunity of correcting those stateinents. 8024. Mr. Brown.] I understand that certain questions were asked by Mr. Hoyle, and Mr. Halligan, in the report of the evidence which was forwarded to him, desired to alter the word " here," contained in Mr. Hoyle's questions, to the words " to Newcastle." 8025. President.] Tes, you will find one place at least where he alters "here " to "Newcastle." 8026. Mr. Soyle.] Tou were asked, Mr. Halligan, " Have any additions been made to the structure or' permanent-way since the Baldwin engines came here? " to which you answered " None." Now, from a charge I see in the cost-book, I see that alterations have been made in the platforms since the engines came here. 8027. Mr. Brown.] Mr. Halligan, I understand, desired to amend that statement by striking out the word " here " and inserting " to Newcastle " in Mr. Hoyle's question, the effect of which would be to alter the whole tenor of the question. Now we find,, since the book containing the entries of the alterations has been produced, that your evidence would correspond with those entries if the word " Newcastle " were substituted for " here " in Mr. Hoyle's question ? ( Witness) : I did not know the word " here," and so I made the alteration. 8028. Mr. Brown.] It was very important to Mr. Hoyle's case if your answer were given as it stands to the question he put, so it was thought desirable to recall you, that you might have an opportunity of correcting, or explaining this matter. Tou did make the correction, but it was in Mr. Hoyle's question, and being very material, the Secretary would not allow it, and so you have been recalled. The question put to you was, " Have any additions been made to the structure or permanent-way since the Baldwin engines came here ?" to which you answered "No." Now, what have you to say about that? (^Witness): I don't know when they came here ; I have no idea when they arrived. I meant to say that after the first Baldwin engine came to Newcastle there were no alterations made. 8029. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 259 8029. The President.] But you said in your evidence " ^ere " — meaning, I presume, " Sydney " ? Mr. B. M. 6030. Mr. Soyle.'] I suppose you took " here " as meaning Newcastle ? HaUigan. 8031. Mr. Brown.'] Tou see, Mr. Halligan, that it is material to Mr. Hoyle's case to show that these afl^jT^^T^a alterations were made for the Baldwin engines ; that is what he desired to get from you, and the altera- ^^' tion you have made has changed that altogether. 8032. Mr. Hoyle.] " Tou told us that nearly all the platforms had been altered in the North— why was that?" to which you answered, "In order to get uniformity of gauge, I understood. There was a Conference of Engineers in Mr. Goodehap's time in 1888, before the Hne was opened to Hawkesbury^ before I took charge of the Northern district the platforms were all different gauges, and he wanted uniformity in them." He then asked you " When was this work absolutely commenced " and you answered " About twelve months afterwards, about June." He then said " Were these platforms altered prior to the importation of the Baldwin engines," and to this you answered " Tes." Tou were subsequently asked if on the trial trip you made you saw any of the engines touch anywhere, and you said " No," and that the cab of the engine did not touch anywhere but was very close at some places ; it was close at Cockle Creek, and you also said that after this trial trip spouting was lifted about 3 inches at Bast Maitland and Cockle Creek. Mr. Halligan has stated that these alterations in the platforms were made to bring the lines to gauge, and I wish to know how he reconciles this with the statement contained in the cost-book. 8033. Mr. Brown.'] The entry in the cost-book is " Altering platforms to give clearance to new locomo- tives " ? That is a heading I would not take any notice of, the clerk who made the entry would put any heading to it which he thought would distinguish it. I think I can show you other entries in similar words in the books. 8034. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes, there are others. 8035. Mr. Brown.] Mr. Hoyle says that these alterations were made in consequence of the importation of these locomotives, and this entry is made in a book connected with your department. It appears to be against these new engines, it says " To give clearance to the new locomotives," and the sum debited is over £1,000. (Witness) : It is just a question of how a clerk enters it up. [Witness here pointed out another entry of a similar nature.] This alteration was made in order to bring the line up to guage, and yet it is entered for the clearance of engine 304. 8036. President.] So that in both cases you have put it to the engine^instead of the gauge ? Tes ; it is a matter of entering up. 8037. Mr. Brown.] Do you not see the importance of your evidence in connection with the charge made against the engine. Is there no other explanation you can give, except that with regard to the clerk ? We had the same charge previously, and it was all for the same thing, widening the gauge, I do not enter up the charges myself, there is a number to each of them. 8038. Mr. Soyle.] 229 A. is the number of the order attached to this charge. 8039. Mr. Brown.] Do you remember the contents of that order from memory ? (Witness): No, I do not. 8040. Could you find it out ? I daresay I could. 8041. Mr. Brown.] Would that order correspond with this heading ? It might or it might not. The heading might be in the words of the order or it might not. 8042. Would not the clerk follow the words of the order ? As a rule I think he would follow pretty near the words of the order. 8043. Mr. Fehon.] As a matter of fact the alteration of the platforms was proposed some years before the Baldwin engines were thought of ; is not that so ? Tes, on the north. 8044. And when the Baldwin engines were ordered it was known that a great number of the platforms were not to gauge, and instructions were given to bring them to gauge ? Tes, as quickly as possible. 8045. And you hurried it on ? Tes, it was rushed towards the end. 8046. Mr. Brown.] I thought the case for the Commissioners was, that the importation of these engines had nothing to do with the platform. 8047. President.] Neither has it. They say " We were going to alter these platforms to a uniform gauge, orders had been given to bring them to that uniform gauge years before these engines arrived," and the Commissioners say that they were only carrying out those orders, but that when the Baldwin engines had been determined on, anticipating that they would be of a large size, they hurried on the work. 8048. Mr. Brown.] So it is a coincidence ? 8049. Mr. Pehon.] Tes. 8050. Mr. Hoyle.] Tou say in yt)ur evidence that these platforms were altered prior to the importation of the Baldwin engines, I find that the date of the completion of the platforms was the 14th September, 1891, It does not say in your evidence that the platforms were in course of alteration, but that they were altered? I certainly stated that, for I knew the platforms were altered before I went on the trial trip. I am certain they were. I am speaking of when I took the trial trip to the Queensland border and back, at that time the platforms were all altered. 8051. Professor Warren.] They were finished before you started ? Tes, if they had not been I should not have attempted to start. 8052. Mr. Hoyle.] I iuay state that probably this matter of the Baldwin engines may not end here, and there might be attempts made in the future if this matter cropped up to question what has been said, and if I should have to review this case hereafter, and perhaps have to go to my constituents upon it, I would not care to say that Mr. Halligan's book stated one thing and the evidence another, therefore I have recalled witness, in order to giving him an opportunity of reconciling his evidence. (Witness) : , Quite so. 8058. Mr. Hoyle.] I did not wish to take advantage of you, in any way. (Witness) : Could I ask Mr. Hoyle if he would instead of giving the date of importation give me an exact date? 8054. Mr. Brown.] The engines came here in June or July, 1891. 8055. Mr. Fehon.] The first engines were in steam in July, 1891 ; but they were not running on the road regularly, they were doing their 1,000 miles preliminary running, which it was necessary for them to do . before being passed and considered fit to run on the main line in regular work. I do not think any of them were running regularly in July. It was well into August before any of them ran on the mam line. 8056. Mr. Brown.] You see that these engines were not in steam until July, 1891, and the cost-book shows that on the 14th September of the same year certain alterations were made in connection with the ■ platform, under the head of " Griving clearance to the new locomotives." 8057. 260 BALDWIN lOCOMOXITES INQUIRY COMMISSION— JUNUIES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. E. M. Halligan. 27 May, 1892. Tes. up to date of arrival ia 8057. Mr. Soyle.] This passage is contained in your evidence : — Mr. Brown.l Were any alterations made prior to the engines arriving ? How long before? They were altered six months before, and some Newcastle. Were many of them altered ? A great number of the platforms. Nearly all of them ? TeS, nearly all on the old line. "When were these alterations begun ? About 14 months ago. January, 1891 ? Tes ; I thint that is the date ; about 14 months ago. 8058. Mr. Brown.'} Then he must be wrong in that. , , j. i • , 8059. Mr. Soi/le.'] Now the book shows that alterations were made to the platforms on the 14th September of last year. . . . 8060. Mr. Brown.] And the engines were imported in June last, 1891 ? That is the importation into Sydney, sir, not Newcastle. 8061. 'Mr. Brotvn.'] The date of importation is not the place, but the time when they arrived here? I was not aware of that. 8062. President.'] "Why could you not have said in your answer when your evidence was sent to you :— "I do not know the date of the importation of the engines into the Colony, but I can say that all of the alterations in my district were made before a certain date," that would fix it. 8063. Mr. Hoyle.] All the alterations were made before the engines went to Newcastle, you say? Yes. 8064. The platforms were all altered before the engines came to you ? Tes, in my division. 8065. And you believe that the heading contained in the cost-book is a mistake so far as the clerks are concerned ? I do not blame anybody for that. It might have been entered up in a clerical way. It might be right so far as I know. 8066. Mr. Brown.] Ton say the heading would probably follow the words of the order 229 A. add this point — that the evidence you tender, or that tendered by anyone else in your position, be as reliable as you can make it. I might ought to Mr. E. Pollock. Eobert Pollock, being sworn, said : — 8067. I am a consulting engineer, practicing upon my own account. I am President of the Engineering Association of New South Wales. 8068. Mr. MJion.] Have you had considerable experience in determining the power of various engines at 27 May, 1892. .various times ? Tes. 8069. Did you conduct certain trials on Sunday, May 15 ? Tes. 8070. Tou were associated with Mr. Kidd in making those trials ? Tes. 8071. And you and Mr. Kidd reported upon them? We did. [Eeport produced.] 8072. Did you consider the result of those trials satisfactory ? Tes, I did. 8073. I have no further questions to ask you. 8074. Professor JVarren.] Did you work out the horse-power required in drawing a load of 176 tons on the 1 in 40 grade at 22 miles an hour? No ; I think you will sea that the tractive power is given in the report. 8075. Tou have not compared it with any fixed standard of requirements which have been submitted to you ? No ; only the weights the engine was supposed to pull. 8076. Did not the Commissioners send you a letter saying that the engine was expected to pull a load of 176 tons up a grade of 1 in 40 at a speed of 22 miles an hour ? Tes. 8077. Did you work out the horse-power necessary to do that ? No ; I only worked out the horse-power the engine developed at different times on the trial trips. 8078. I am sorry you did not do that, for then you could have compared the horse-power you actually obtained with the horse-power which the engine was expected to develop ? I worked out the horse-power of the work accomplished, in the day. 8079. I refer to the horse-power that would be shown by drawing a load of 152 tons up a grade of 1 in 40 at a speed of 22 miles per hour ? I do not remenjber the tenor of that letter. 8080. None of your speeds reached 22 miles per hour, though your loads sometimes exceed the standard of 152 tons, what was the highest speed you obtained ? The highest speed we obtained was on the fifth trial, it is given in the report, 8081. Did you compare the speeds I sent you with your own ? Tes, and with your times also. They all come out very closely to within an eighth I believe. In the main they were very good. 8082. The load was 5 tons 2 cwt. and 11 qrs., and more than was intended I think ? Tes. 8083. Tou agree that it is right to take the indicated horse-power after the engine had settled down to its work ? Tes. Tou will notice that on the fourth trip she was gaining speed, and gaining steam up the 1 in 30. •Iji Mile-post whore taken. Speed in miles per hour. Boiler pressure. Initial pressure. M.E.P. l.ll.P. Tractive power. Eesistance in lbs. per ton of whole train. lbs. lbs. 19 661 20 -4.5 155 142 97-85 012-0 16,732 '4-12 20 G7 17 '64 155 144 107-5 864-7 18,382 11-8 21 67i 17-45 160 144 106-6 849-8 18,228 11-17 22 671 16-82 155 145 109-7 841-8 18,758 13-6 2.'? 6S1 17-47 155 142 108-4 863-5 18,536 12-6 21 6Si 18-18 150 136 103-8 SiO 17,749 8-9 ALDWIN LOaOMOTIVES INQUJUT COMMISSION — MISTJTES OP ETIDEK-CE. 261 8084. In recording the horse-power o£ these engines, would you take the last four results in this report Mr. as your basis ? There is a diagram accompanying this report showing the grades and the time in which R- PoUock. they were taken, and a tracing that will show you when the engine was fairly on the grade, there are a good /— ^-"^-^ many curves on the gradients, and they, of course, would affect the speed. I think the gradient, in order ^^ ^^y- ^^^2. to try the engine fairly, ought to he straight. In the diagram, I have referred to, you will see exactly where the curves are, and where the engine settled down to her work. 8085. It would be unfair to average all the horse-powers, and take that as the horse-power of the engine, would it not ? Tes. I should take out the first trip, I think. 8086. Mr. Fehon.'] The horse-power will fall going up the grade. 8087. Professor Warren.l No ; because if you were drawing nothing you would get no pressure on your cards, but these have all been taken from indicated diagrams, and they would correspond with what you would get drawing a weight up a certain height ? There is a beautiful correspondence between these horse-powers, and what we expected. 8088. How did you get the resistance ? "We first took the whole weight of the train and engine, and then divided it by the grade. 8089. This is the resistance in lbs, per ton in the report ? Tes ; on the level. 8090. That varies considerably ? I put it down considerably ; the curves affected it to some extent. 8091. Take trial No. 1, you say the speeds there were 17, 17, and 15; the engine was evidently feeling the effect of the grade ? You must compare that with the falling steam power. 8092. Then take the other, 18, 18, and then it increases a little ;— that would be a fair average to take ? I'thjnk you might' leave out the first two, but that is a good deal a matter of opinion. 8093. Tou would consider that a fair thing ? Tes. 8094. I think it would rather overstate the horse-power, but you would think it fair ? Yes. 8095. If I average it at 64 or 65, 1 would take a fair average"? Yes ; I think you would. 8096. The best test of all is No. 5 ;— that is undoubtedly better than any of the others ; the speed is higher and the road heavier — 5 tons 12 cwt. and 2 qrs. heavier, more than was ever expected, and the speed is practically 20 miles an hour? Oar speeds were sometimes a little over or a little under yours, ■ but on the whole we thought that they were remarkably alike. 8097. There is one diagram that Mr. Pollock has referred to, which shows the grade and the position on the grade at which the indicator diagram is taken ; — could you let me have that tracing, Mr. Pehon ? 8098. Afr. Fehon.'] Yes. 8099. Professor Warren.] I shall send it back to you ; I merely want it in order to check for the purpose of verification. 8100. Did you use a planimeter ? Yes ; and then we checked off. Howell Bland, being sworn, said ; — 8101. I am assistant running foreman at Eveleigh ; previous to that I was travelling locomotive ^''- ^- Bland, inspector on the Southern and Suburban line. I have been in the service of the New South Wales o/TT"^^"'^ Railway Department between twenty-three and twenty- four years ; for about fourteen years I was a y' ^°'^^- driver. 8102. Mr. Fehon.] Tou have had a large experience of engines, and have ridden on the footplates of all the different types ? Tes. 8103. Tou have ridden on the Baldwin passenger and goods engines ? I have. 8104. "Will you tell the Commission briefly your experience of these engines? I found that both the passenger and goods engine did all that was required of them. Their performances were beyond my expectation. I always found them to run freely and well, and to take the curves better than most of our English engines. I have ridden on the passenger engine at the rate of 50 miles an hour, and I have no hesitation in saying that they rode comfortably and safely, and did not injure the road in any way so far as I could see. 8105. Did you consider that they rolled more than other enges do ? No, I did not, although the impress- sion might be given that they did on account of the driver standing so high. The driver stands much higher on the Baldwin engine than he does on the ordinary English engine, so that these engines would appear to roll much more than they would if the driver stood lower down. 8106. Tou consider them to be comparatively easier then than any other class of engines on our lines ? Tes, I fancy that they ride easier. 8107. Do not they draw alone the loads which previously required two engines to draw them ? They do. 8108. What is your opinion as to whether one large Baldwin engine or two smaller engines coupled togeitber are easier on the road ? Certainly I think the one Baldwin engine Is easier than the two engines coupled together. 8109. Are they not easier in every way, being controlled by one set of men instead of by two ? It must necessarily follow that a train is more easily managed and better in other ways in the hands of one man— that is, under his control— than under that of two. It Is difficult to get two men to work in unison with each other. . 8110. With your experience of the lines and roads of the New South Wales Eailway, do you consider them to be suitable to the Baldwin engines ? Yes ; I do. , __ , .r. -i o 8111. Do you think them a valuable addition to the rolling stock of the INew South Wales Eailways ? Tes ; I think they are a valuable addition, so valuable that we have been able to reduce the number of drivers considerably, on account of these engines doing the work which previously two engmes had to do, necessitating the employment of two sets of men where now only one set is required. 8112. Mr. Soyle.] Tou say that these engines did more than you expected of them ;— what would you expect ? I expected them to haul about 200 up the 1 in 30 grade. I am speaking now of the consolida- tion goods engine. The passenger engine I expected to draw 125 to 130 tons up the same grade, and they are doing more than that now. . i j o nt 8113. Upon what do you base your opinion ;— were you consulted when the engmes were ordered ? No. 8114. Did you know anything about them before they came here ? No. • , ^, ^ 8115. So you had no way of forming an opinion about them till they actually came here ? IN o, only that from my practical experience I came to the conclusion in my own mind as to what they would do. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. g. Bland. qi i « iiri ^^.^,_^j^^^^ o-iio- W nat was there about the engine that led you to come to that conclusion ? There was nothing in 27, May, 1892. |f^^?Jf except that, from the way the old Baldwin's handled the light trains, I came to the conclusion SI 1 7 -R "^^ ^^giJies would handle a heavier train in a certain way. V- ^* you must have had something to go upon that made you arrive at this conclusion ; what made you think that they would haul these loads of 200 tons in the case of the consolidation engine, and 125 *° T°^^ ^^ *^^* °^ the passenger engine ; what was it led you to believe that these engines would do that I mean from an engineering point of view ; — how did you arrive at these conclusions ? I was led to believe that the engines were brought here to run the through Southern express to Junee, and they were put on that road and did run the express, and I have no hesitation in saying that if the material in the bogie axles had been what it ought to have been they would have been running that service now. 8118. You say you believe that these engines were brought here to run the express ? "Well, I did not knofv. 8119. Tou were told ? Tes ; it was the general opinion. 8120. Well, now that these axles are put right, and since the engines haul so much more than others, why are they not used for the express service ? We have other engines on the line now doing the work just as well. ^^^.\ ^°^ ^^^^ *^** *w engines coupled together would do more harm to the road than one heavy engine ? 1 said that is my opinion. 8122. But we want you to give more than an opinion ; what you are giving here is evidence ; if you say tuese engines are doing a certain thing, it comes before the Commission as a fact. Have you had anything to do with the permanent-way of the colony ? No. si'of ■ m° ^'^^ ^°^ anything about civil engineering ? No. tilt' Zl^^' ^° ^°^ ^^^^^ ^°^ ^^^ qualified to give, or capable of giving an opinion upon this matter ? No. »i25. Ihen, any statement you make upon this question will be simply a matter of opinion of an unpro- fessional character ? Tes, quite so. 8126. Now, about the loads these engines will haul, you say these passeager engines will haul 125 to 130 tons up the Im 30 grade at what speed? About 12 to 14 miles an hour, S dn |"^^Y "^^ *^^* ^°^^ experience only extends to the metropolitan district; have you control beyond 8128. Does your duty take you to Newcastle ? No 8129. Or Penrith? No. «i f ?■ w^ ™®*'"°P°li*a'i district will extend, I suppose, up to Picton ? I havfe control to Albury. »idi. When these engines were running in Sydney did they give much trouble; were the breakages in connection with them any greater than those in connection with other classes of engine ? Not more than with new engmes usually. That is until the axles began to give way; that was the first serious trouble they gave. 8132. Would you be prepared to answer any questions relative to the axles, the bearing service, and that class of matter? No. > & > 8133. Tou are not competent to do so ? No. al'qt' ^^ ^elong to the driving section of the Department only ? Tes. 81d5. Mr. FeTion.] As far as you have had experience with these engines, have they had more breakages than ordmary new engines ? No. o > j b 8136. Was it a new experience for reversing gear to give way, or a fulcrum pin to drop out ? No ; there IS always something in new engines that requires to be done ; when 304 class was brought here we had to make a great number of alterations. ' ^/^''"fl"^"'' ^"■^^f-^ ^S y°" ^^^"^ *^<^ '^0* ^'^^«' o"" Baldwin engines? The 304 Baldwin; when that class hrst came here there was very considerable trouble in getting them to run at all, on account of the beyond pSamltta °^ ^''<'°"'^* °^ *^e faulty lubrication; it was some weeks before we could get them 8138. Mr. Fehon.-] Comparing new English engines with these new American engines, have the breakages and repairs m the latter been excessive? Tes; I rather think it has been more on these engines than on the Engbsh engines ; yes, I think so. ^ q}^^' ^)°^V'^^ mechanical part of the Department you know nothing ? ^;tl=T ■ 7 -^ '^^^f ^""l °^-, ^''^t '^"^^'■^ complained about these engines? So far as I know, the drivers have always spoken highly about the engines, and have wanted to get them again. ^,,^P #7.T^'tT *^^^^^^^^e ^een no complaints of a general nature since they first commenced to run f JN ot that I know of. ■' l]tl' ^/^^J"*^ ^® m^ *^^* ^^^"^ "^^'^ complaints about.them ? No, I never have. 8143. Mr. Moyle.] That is all I wish to ask the witness fn^^'.'^r-^'T ^"''"''''■l ^ ^"^l"! lil^^ to ask Mr. PoUock a question. There was a certain amount of coal and water consumed on our trial trips, and I find that that has not been deducted from the load, SmI w^ lr\TT^ *tf' '' ^ ^"^'^y^- ^"•'^•^ ^^- ^°11°'''^ gi^« ">e the quantities consumed ? SiIr ^'^•/^^'"'J^^ ^° ?*J^?r ^V*^i^g ^I'oi^* It- The driver runningthat trip would probably know. sTl^' l^^-^ZT TT^'*-^ ^^ ^%.^\^. ^ ^°*^ °^ *^^ ad been running ; the principal failures of the old Consolidation engine were blowing the cylinder '' ■ ends out, and with regard to crank pins, and I do not doubt that these faults will also show in the Baldwin engines with the high pressure they have and the amount of slipping they do. 8278. Professor Warren.] The slipping shows the high power of the cylinder, does it not ? Tes, or that there is something preventing cohesion. 8279. "Would the reduction of the pressure obviate this ? It might obviate the slipping. 8280. And the blowing out of the cylinders and the breaking of the crank-pins ? 8281. Mr. Fehon.'] But that does not happen in these engines ? No, it does not take place in the Baldwin engines, I was referring to the ol d Consolidation. If you reduced the pressure you would reduce the speed. 8282. Professor Warren.'] And therefore the utility of the engine. Henry Robinson recalled : — Mr. 8283. Mr. Brown.] Have you ever seen this paper ? [^Paper produced heing a report on JSTo. 455 American H. Robinson, engine working special between Emu Plains and Duhbo, to ascertain the clearance for cylinders and cab of ' ^-^''~\ engine between all platforms, verandahs, bridges, and tunnels, Sfc] Witness : Yes, it seems somewhat 27 May, 1892. similar to a report I made, with reference to the clearance for cylinders and cab of engine between platforms, &c. 8284. Mr. Brown.] Will you turn to page 2, what does this portion of the report refer to ? That was in connection with measurements made of the coal-stage at Bathurst. 8285. Has it anything to do with the coal-stages Mr. Hoyle asked yoii about ? None whatever. 8286. Has it anything to do with the question contained in your evidence : — Mr. Hoyle (to witness) .J Did you make any reports in connection with the coal-stages ? I made no report whatever. Witness : That was in connection with the Eveleigh coal-stage. 8287. Mr. Brown.] Is that so, Mr. Hoyle ? 8288. Mr. Hoyle.] I did ask some questions about the Eveleigh coal-stage, but then I asked elsewhere the general question you have quoted. 8289. Mr. Brown.] This is the general question you refer to ? ("Witness :) I answered that thinking you were referring to the Eveleigh coal-stage. 8290. Mr. Soyle.] But then I asked you the general question before that. 8291. Mr. Broion.] You were asked this question, and gave the reply I have read. You must remember that you come here to give correct evidence, and not to mislead the Commission. Now here is the tenor of your evidence, and it goes to show, just as Mr. Hoyle says, that you are asked generally with regard to the coal-stages. This is your evidence on the general question, " Did you make any reports in connection with the coal-stages ? " to which you answered, " Made no report whatever." Your evidence then goes on as follows : — "Was there not any investigation made relative to the coal-stages in connection with these engines ? Not that I am aware of. "Were any alterations made at any of these stages to meet the convenience of these engines ? I cannot say whether there was any alteration made or not, but I daresay the line was altered a few inches perhaps. Had that anything to do with the width of the cylinders of the Baldwin engines ? I do not know why it was altered at all. Do you know if thei coal-stage at Eveleigh was altered in connection with these engines or not ? I do not. . This is a general report upon the whole question {referring to paper produced]. It is signed by you, and it refers, among other matters, to the coal-stage at Bathurst fouling the cab of the engine. Yet, when Mr. Hoyle asked you if you made any report in connection with the coal-stages, you said you had made no report whatever ? ("Witness :) At the time I was giving my evidence I was referring particularly to the Eveleigh coal-stage. 8292. How can you say that, when you were asked generally about the coal-stages ? I was asked about the clearance of the engines on the Northern line. 8293. You had been as far as "Wallerawang on the Northern, and Bourke on the "Western line, and Mr. Hoyle asked you certain questions incidental to those trips ; — it is not as if you were on one particular part of the line, but you went as far as Wallerawang ? Yes. 8294. And you went to Bourke r No ; I went to Dubbo. 8295. At all events you took two trips, one on the north and one on the west ? Yes. 8296. You have been recalled with regard to that particular part of the evidence to which I have referred, and the Commission wish to know now if you desire to amend that part of your evidence, because they are under the impression that your remarks applied to the coal-stages generally. 1 8297. President.] Do you want to say that when you were asked if any alterations were made to the coal stages, and you replied " No," you meant that none had been made at Eveleigh coal-stage? Yes. 8298. Mr. Brown.] Our object in recalling you is that you may correct your evidence now. Is there-any- thing more you have to say about Eveleigh. It seemed to me to be a very light and airy way of giving evidence, considering the difficulties the Commission labour under. Your explanation is that you intended to refer to Eveleigh coal-stage alone ; but there is no reference to Eveleigh coal-stage whatever in the previous part of your evidence. You gave evidence that you had been as far as the Queensland border, and after that you were asked this question in connection with coal-stages generally. 8299. Mr. Hoyle.] I suppose you really had in your mind at the time the Eveleigh coal-stage only, and you meant to refer to that alone ? At the time of my examination I was referring to the northern line and Eveleigh. 8300. I wish you would correct your evidence in that respect. There is another little matter that also requires clearing up. I asked a question with reference to Picton ; the evidence was as follows : — Did you go to Picton on the Southern Line with an engine ? Yes. Could you come past Picton platform before tne rails snifted, I mean the line was altered ? No. You could not? No. 8301. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES OQUIHT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 267 Tou could not pass Picton platform with the Baldwin engine until the rails were lifted or the station ^ ^^:^ altered ? Oh, we got past the station certainly, but the lines were afterwards altered I believe. ^^-.^.^J^"* But the cylinder touched ? No, it went very close. 2? May, 1892, 8301. President.'] Now, here is your report, which has been produced to you, and on page 3 you will find the following :—" Picton, cylinder fouled platform on down run," and here is your examination before this Commission on the other hand, in the words just read to you — how do you reconcile those two statements ? ("Witness) : Well, certainly, the cylinder did go very close ; it was the buffer that touched the platform. 8302. Mr. Hoyle.] But your report says : " Cylinder fouled platform on down run "; and in answer to Mr. Hoyle's question, " Did the cylinder touch?" you said, " No, but it went very close." Then he asked, " Could the engine have passed with safety running at the rate of say 30 miles an hour ?" To which you replied, " I daresay, if all the brasses were in good condition. In that event we might have got through safely." I do not quite understand what is meant by the brasses. 8303. Witness.'] In all the measurements, if there was not sufficient clearance, I made use of the word " foul." I have given no measurements in the case of Picton. 8301. Mr. Brown.] You have stated what was incorrect, as a matter of fact. 8305. President:] lunderstand this to be the fact, that the cylinder fouled. I could understand you making a mistake with your measurements, but whether the cylinder fouled or not is a fact which there was no getting beyond. 8306. President.] It is for your own sake that we have called attention to this. 8307. Mr. Brown.] Have you had an opportunity of perusing the evidence ? I have had an opportunity. 8308. President.] Have you got a copy of your own report ? I think I have ; I think I can find it. 8309. It would be well to find it and amend your evidence, for the two statements are inconsistent. How do you explain this inconsistency? (Witness) : We went up to measure the clearance between the plat- forms and the cylinder, and I made use of the word " cylinder " all along, because the bufEer being of the same size it was just the same as if the cylinder had fouled. Coming into Picton we were on a curve, and naturally the platform would be very close to the bufEer. The buffer-beam would strike. 8310. Professor Warren^] But in your evidence, in answer to Mr. Hoyle, you said nothing about that. 8311. President.] How could the engine get by if the bufier-beam struck ? It might have scraped a little. 8312. Would it not be rather risky if you were going at any pace ? Well, it would not be a safe thing to do in usual every day practice. 8313. But I see in your evidence that Mr. Brown asked you, " Would you like to be on an engine, going at the rate of 30 miles an hour, and have it pass so close to the platform as this passed j^would you have liked to have driven an engine through at that rate ? " — to which you answered, " Tes, I daresay I could have driven the engine." Again he asked you, " Do you think it would have derailed the engine ? " — and to this you said, " No ; perhaps it might have scraped the bufEer -beam, that is all." 8314. Professor TVarren.] I should say, remembering the oscillation, that, it would have knocked the bufier-beam all to pieces ? (Witness) : No ; it just scraped. 8315. Do you mean to say that if you were going at the rate of 30 miles an hour, and the buffer-beam touched the platform, it would not be knocked to pieces ; it is obvious from your report that it fouled ? Well, I have been asked my opinion, and that is all I can say. 8316. President.] Do you say that you could drive an engine through the station with the buffer-beams scraping the platform whilst travelling at a speed of 30 miles an hour ;— would you not have smashed something up ? Mr. Brown, when he asked you the question I have quoted, meant, of course, did you get through clear ? We could have passed that platform without carrying anything away. 8317. Mr. Broion.] Do you desire to amend your evidence ? Tou had better take a copy of it with you, and, after comparing it with your report, consider what you really intend to say, and amend it accordingly. 8318. Mr. JFehon.] 1 may as well explain to the Commission that it is a very common thing, if a cylinder runs close to a platform, to say that it fouls. 8319. President.] Showing that the platform needs some alteration. D. H. Neale recalled : — 8320. Mr. Fehon.] Tou are a member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers ? No ; I belong to the Mr. D. H. Institution of Civil Engineers. Neale. 8321. How many years have you been a member? I have been an Associate Member 19i years nearly, „{T^;~^~^r~^„ „«j T J. J i I, j: j-T, i 27 May, 1892, and i was a student before that. ■" 8322. And do you hold any other diploma ? I am an Associate of the Master Car Builders' Association of America, which embraces the principal locomotive and rolling-stock men of that country. 8323. What has been your experience in railway management ? I have had altogether twenty-five years' experience. I served my pupilage on the North London Eailway, after having served a pupila,ge with a civil engineer. I was on the North British Eailway as general assistant to the Locomotive Superintendent. I was chief draftsman on the Monmouthshire and also on the Great Eastern Eailway, holding the former position for twenty months and the latter for four years. I was assistant locomotive superintendent, and for a short time acting locomotive superintendent of the Cape Government Eailways. I was inspector at home for the South Indian Eailway, and I was also independent engineer for the Metropolitan District Eailway, for which I designed standard rolling stock, and I have been connected more or less with other railways. 8324. Were you an editor of the Bailroad Gazette in America ? Tes ; I was mechanical editor for that paper for five years, and in that capacity I wrote the articles about locomotives and rolling stock, and also many about permanent-way. 8325. Is not the Bailroad Gazette considered amongst professional men a paper of, very high standmg as an engineering journal, particularly on questions of the management of railways ? Tes ; it is the leading paper for railway ofEcers not only in the United States, but also, I may say, throughout the world. 8326. Had you, in the capacity as editor of the Bailroad Gazette, an opportunity^ of becoming acquainted with the condition, from a civil and mechanical point of view, of all the principal railways of the 2G8 BAED-WIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTOIT COMMISSION — MINUTES OP JETIDENCE. Neale *^® United States? Yes, I had; 1 met the leading railroad men in the United States.and they were all ^.„^^^^' very kind in giving me facilities to inspect their latest improvements and information on subjects of 27 Mav 1892 ^^^^^^^st to railroad men. And they depended upon me to disseminate that information. ' ■ 8327. Can you give the Commission some idea of the weight of the rails used in the United States ? It varies very much indeed. The rails in use most generally vary from 56 to 67 lb. per yard in weight. Of course there are some lines' that have heavier rails, and during the last few years very much heavier rails have been introduced. I saw the first 80-lb. rail that was used in America. It was used on the IN^ew York Central Bailroad, and it gave satisfaction, and they have since laid the line from New York to Buffalo. 8328. President.'] I should like to ask here, Mr. "Neale, whether they gave such satisfaction by reason of their durability or by reason of additional safety insured by heavy rails over light rails ? They gave satisfaction because of their durability and the fact that they gave less trouble with the fastenings, which are the weak point in American roads, owing to the soft character of the sleepers. 8329. Mr. Fellon.'] Are not the sleepers very soft in America as compared with the hardwood sleepers in use here ? Yes ; it is entirely due to the fact that there was no timber used in the United States, that could be used i or sleepers, that is as hard and durable as ironbark. White oak is the best and most .durable wood in America for sleepering the roads, and that is far softer and lighter and much more liable to decay thaii iron-bark. 8330. President.'] What do they use for sleepers on the English railroads ? They use Baltic pine generally — yellow pine creosoted, oak would be too expensive. 8331. Professor Warren,.] They use larch too do they not? Yes, but it is an inferior timber, and for that reason is not used on main lines 8332. Mr. Fehon.] And is not the ballasting very much disregarded on a great portion of the United States ? Yes ; taking the American railroads as a whole there is very little ballasting indeed. Of course on some roads, particularly between ]N"ew York and Philadelphia, for example, they have stone ballast something like ours, but taking the majority of the American roads, and amongst them the Baltimore and Ohio over which the Baldwin engines are running, the lines are very poorly ballasted indeed. 8333. President.] Why do they not pay more attention to the ballasting of their roads ? It is a question of economy. The American road is built cheaply and imp'oved out of the earnings. 8334. Mr. Fehon!] Are you acquainted with the new and improved class of engines that they are now using in America ? Yes, I am ; they use the Consolidation engines which were first introduced about twenty years ago. They have greatly increased them in size and power, and have found great advantage in doing so, and more recently they have superseded the old four-wheel couple engines which were used for passenger trains, and put six-wheel coupled engines on the road instead. I witnessed the beginning of that movement, and talked to the people who had charge. of the new type of engines, and they expressed themselves as very much pleased and delighted with their superior performances. Since then I may say .that the movement has very much extended on a large number of roads, and now the ten-wheeled and Mogul engines are used to a large extent. The preference is for the ten- wheelers although it is a little heavier. They prefer it because they think the ten wheels give a little more security. 8335. Professor Warren^ What is the maximum weight of consolidation engines in America ? They run up to very heavy weights, the heaviest is about 66 or G7 tons without the tender. 8336. Mr. Fehon.] Grive us the weight of the engine and tender combined, because that is the way in which it has been calculated in this Commission ? Engine and tender combined in some instances is up to ] 00 English tons. 8337. Professor Warren.] The Decapod engme would be over 100 tons would it not? Well, it might, or it might not, they might use ten wheels instead of eight so as to better distribute the weight over more wheels. The Decapod engines are not, however, in general use in the main lines in America, they are only in use on the special inclines. 8338. And are not the Consolidation engines generally used in America with safety, and running with good results ? Yes ; the managers and engineers, to whom I have talked on the question, amongst them Mr. Ely, the leading Superintendent of Motive Power in the United States, with whom I had a long chat on the subject of the lower freight rates as compared with those in England, notwithstanding the difference in wages, said that he believed that the most important reason for the lowness of rates in America was the use of powerful locomotives. The average rate per ton per mile is a halfpenny on the American railways, and it is continually being reduced, whilst in G-reat Britain, although the rate is not actually known, I may safely say that it is fully a penny per ton per mile. I have just been working out the pecuniary result of these different rates, and I find from "Poor's Manual" that the difEerence in rates on the annual business of the American railroads as against the English rates is equal to a saving of from £130,000,000 to £150,000,000 per annum ; that is to say, the low American rates mean a saving of £2 per head of the population as against the rates charged in England. If we only realise one quarter of the saving in jTew South Wales it would mean a saving of half a million a year. Of course, having been in America, I am perfectly conversant with this question, and any American who came liere would tell you that the hauling of big loads, and consequently of the employment of engines of sufilcient power , to haul big loads unassisted, is a very important thing, not only to the railways of the country, but to the people at large. 8339. Mr. Fehon.] Some of these engines are running on the Baltimore and Ohio, are they not? Yes; they have used six coupled passenger engines for crossing the AUeghanies for years, and have been con- stantly increasing their weight and power for the corresponding increase in the weight and length of their passenger trains. 83iO. What is the standard weight of rail on the New South Wales railways ? The old standard was 71i lb. to the yard for steel rails, and 75 lb. for iron rails, and the present standard is 80 lb. for steel rails. 8341. And what is the standard of the spacing of the sleepers ? The present standard is 2 ft. 7 in. 8312. And is not the ballasting good and equal to the best of American roads, or even to the average of English roads ? Yes ; I think, taking the line from Penrith to Bathurst, over which I rode some little time ago with the special object of noticing the permanent way, I may safely say that I never rode over an equal length of line upon which so much work had been bestowed within the last two years by way of draining and ballasting and renewing rails and sleepers. 8343. Do you know the weight of the Baldwin engines now running in New South Wales ; — what is your BAIiDWIN LOCOMOTIVES IKQUIUT COMMISSION— IIINUTES 0¥ ETIDENCE. 269; your opinion of them, taking into consideration the roads over which they have to run ;— do you consider Mr. D. H; the engines suitable for the roads and the roads for the engines ? I think, they are eminently suitable, ^«*le- and that they will produce very important economical results ; that they will save time, increase ofi^ir'^'^ punctuality, and prove a great convenience not only to the Railway Department, but to the people oi^^^^>^^^^' jS'ew South "Wales. 8344. Do you know the builders of these engines ? Yes ; I visited their works very often, and I know the members of the firm, or at least some of them. They are very fine works— the largest locomotive works in the world, and the firm has a. very high reputation indeed. The works are about four times larger than any works in G-reat Britain, and about three timas as large as any other locomotive works in the United States. 8345. Then, if you ordered these engines from that firm you would have ordered them without troubling very much about supervision. In fact, you would take 'it for granted that they would only supply you with a first-class article, and that it was unnecessary to employ an inspector on the spot ? Tes, I should take it for granted that they would give me a very good design, and put the beat workmanship into the engines without supervision. I may add that it is not the custom in America when ordering locomotives to send in an inspector to see them built. I was an inspector of locomotives for some years at home, and I must say this, that I never would order a locomotive from a firm that- 1 was not prepared to trust with- out the presence of an inspector. You send an inspector to supervise the building of a locomotive, and he is but one man among some thousands, and you may take it for granted that if those men do not know their work he certainly cannot teach them. 8346. Did you make some alterations in the specifications of these engines, and if so, for what reason ? Yes, I did. I know there are divers opinions of steel fire-boxes and iron tubes ; they are very much cheaper, and they have many advantages over copper, but where there is lime in the water they have a very short life. Now copper, while it is heavier and more expensive than steel, and in many respects an inferior material for fire-boxes, has this advantage, — -that it disregards to a great extent the presence of lime in the water. If you have perfectly pure water 'and a steel fire-box, a person inspecting it after sixteen or seventeen years wear would not be able to tell that it had been in use for more than six or seven months ; but, on the other hand, if there is lime in the water, it will wear out possibly in six months. With regard to the screw revcrsing-gear, I may say that, personally, I prefer it to a lever, but apart from that, there are two very strong reasons why we should adopt it in this case. Pirst of all, nearly all our engines have screw reveralng-gear, and consequently our men are accustomed to it, and secondly, on our steep gradients it is advisable to have every possible appliance for stopping an engine. If a brake gives way or is out of order you have to reverse your engine at once, and sometimes it is almost impossible to do so as quickly as is necessary if your engine is only fitted with a lever; but a screw is always easy to handle because you have so much power over it ; and, consequently, under the circumstances to which you have referred, with a screw you can act with greater certainty. Then there is another thing, though it very rarely occurs. Sometimes you cannot shut steam off your engine, and under those circumstances it is very necessary to be able to reverse without a moment's delay, because an engine running down an incline with steam on in forward gear cannot be held by the brake. The other alterations made in the specifications are not of much importance, and I do not think it is necessary for me to refer to them in Retail. 8347. "Was the design of this engine entirely original, or was it suggested by that of an engine already in use? It was suggested by an engine in use on the Baltimore and Ohio railway which gave very good results. 8348. It has been said that your modifications somewhat impaired the power of these engines — is that a fact ? I have gone into that question carefully, and have not quite finished my investigation ; but here is a diagram which may throw some light upon it. I have plotted here the horse-power and different speeds of the Baltimore and Ohio engines, and have done the same with regard to our own engines. The blue figures on the diagrams represent our engines and the red the Baltimore and Ohio engines, and the two things pretty well coincide. 8349. Professor Warren.'] Has that anything to do with the gradients, or is it simply a statement of horse- power ? No ; the gradients are not shown. These figures are taken from the results of a test of the Baltimore and Ohio engines and the results of the tests that we made on 11th May with our Baldwin passenger engine. I may say with regard to tractive power, that of course is the most important feature in locomotives for heavy gradients, that our engines develop a greater maximum than the Baltimore and Ohio engines. Our engine on 11th May developed 19,836 lb. as maximum, and the Baltimore and Ohio engines developed 19,064 lb. as a maximum. 8350. But it fell as low as 9,000 lb. ? Yes ; but that was before it was exerting its full power. I do not know if you have the figures of the 4th test made on May 11th when the engine was ascending the 1-30 gradient with a load of 144 tons. The tractive power varies as follows :— 19,152 lb., 19,836 lb., 19,323 lb., 19,545 lb., 19,237 lb., 19,476 lb., 19,647 lb., 19,297 lb. Now the Baltimore and Ohio engines never once exerted these powers. 8351. That is merelv tractive force ? Yes. 8352. It has been said that these engines slipped their wheels ? The engines do not slip. 8353. Therefore it does not follow that the hauling power of the train is proportionate to the tractive power ? Certainly. 8354. But does it not depend on the weight on the driving-wheels, and so on ? If the engine can exert that tractive force, the train will have to move. 8355. But the tractive force does not depend upon the weight on the driving-wheel ; will you give me the formula from which you obtained your results ? tt = tractive co-efficient ; d = diameter of cylinder : S = stroke ; D = diameter of driving-wheel. 8356. Well, where does the weight of the driving-wheels come in there ? It does not come in there ; but if the weight on the driving-wheels is deficient, the engine will slip. 8357. Exactly, that is what I say ; the weight on the driving wheel must be proportionate to the tractive power, but we have it in evidence that the engines do slip ? If all the evidence you have on that point is like the evidence I heard this afternoon, it has not much bearing upon the question. It was stated by the witness who referred to the slipping of the driving-wheel that it was owing to bad cleaning, and in consequence the oil was dripping on to the driving- tire. Any engine in the world would slip under those conditions. 270 BAIiBWIN LOCOMOTITES IITQTTIRT COMMISSION-^MIITUTES OF ETrDETTCE. ^N ■'^1 ^' °°^*li*ioDs. I am perfectly satisfied, from my experience after riding upon the engines, and after speaking to ^**'«- the drivers, that they are very well proportioned and rarely slip. Indeed,their adhesive weight is rather more ^'JM^^^WQZ ^^ proportion to their cylinder power than that of other types of engines on the line. I investigated this ^' * question some two years ago, and came to the conclusion that in this climate we could do with a lower co-efficient of adhesion than you would require in the United States or in Canada, ; and in the United States and Canada they can do with a lower co-efficient than they can in Great Britain. 8358. In other words, you have a " better rail " ? Tes. 8359. The point is with regard to the letters that were sent by the Secretary to theEailway Com- missioners to the Baldwin Company. Tou, in conjunction with others, advised the Commissioners as to the purchase of these engines. Did you authorise this statement ? 8360. Tou made a report in which it is stated that these engines are expected to haul such-and-such a weight at such-and-such a speed up a certain grade ? The essential statement is in a letter from the JKailway Commissioners to the Baldwin Company, dated 22nd December, 1890, and found on page 4 of the correspondence. 8361. Tes, that is it; in that letter you say : — There is a mis-print in that letter. The weight should be 176 and not 178 tons. 8362. So that really it is intended to haul 176 tons up 1 in 40 at a speed of 22 miles an hour ? No, I do not read it in that way. 8363. Well, let me read you another letter ; this is on page 7 of the correspondence, and the letter is dated December 29th, 1890. It is from the Secretary of the Eailway Commissioners to the Baldwin Company. I admit that the load which it was said necessary to haul up 1 in 40 at 22 miles an hour was not mentioned in the first letter, but it certainly is stated distinctly in this letter. So you see that in this statement to the effect that the engine will be expected to haul 176 tons up 132 feet per mile, or 1 in 40, at 22 miles an hour ? l_The correspondence was then handed to the witness.'] 8364. The power of the engine is implied in this letter very distinctly ? Tes, that is a little mistake, I certainly consider that the engine should haul 152 gross tons, as I staled in the former letter, I expected to be able to put on an additional car occasionally up the 1 in 40, but I hardly expected that under these circumstances the engine would keep this time. We named our very maximum requirements. The Chief Commissioner asked me before the letter was written what was the very best speed at which the load could be hauled up the gradient in question, and asked me if it could not be done at 25 miles at hour. I told him that it could not be done at that speed up that incline, and ultimately I told him that he had better say 22 miles an hour. 8365. Then we may take it that you are the author of these figures ? Tes, I believe I am professionally responsible for them. 8366. And you worked out the horse-power, I suppose ? Tes, and found it as stated in the letter. 8367. I may say that I have checked them and made the same difference ? Tes. 8368. What horse-power did you put down? I have lost those calculations. 8369. Well, the highest horse-power recorded in the Baltimore and Ohio trials is 1,003, is there another table ? Tes, there are various runs in which the horse-power is shown. 8370. I see one runs up to 1,300, but that is taken from the Railroad Gazette, which says that the Baltimore and Ohio engines developed 1,300 horse-power, but then that was before she had settled down to her work ? Tes, that was before she struck the grade that they work out 1,800 horse-power. 8371. Tou know the horse-power that the New South Wales engines develope ? I expected them to develop from 900 to 960 as maximum. 837li. Tes, that is very well, but the figures you give in the letter work out considerably beyond that ? I think not. 8372. I think, if you work them out by the American practice, you wiU find that they give a result exceed- ing 1,000 horse-power. It is certainly more than 1,000 horse-power to haul 176 tons up 1 in 40 at 22 miles an hour ? Tes ; but I did not expect them to haul 176 tons up 1 in 40 at that rate. I thought it would be a very good performance if they hauled 150 at that rate. 8373. Well, but if you work that out you will find that it comes to more than 960, 1 think ? I think not, 8374. Of course I know there is a train resistance. However, let us take 960 as what you expected them to perform ? I expected them to perform between 900 and 960. 8375. Then I will refer you to some of your own tests. Did any one of the tests made by Mr. Eichardson and yourself with the ten-wheeled engine come up to 930 horse-power ? No, not any of them, but you cannot develop a very great horse-power in going up a long incline with such an extreme load, as the speed is necessarily slow. 8376. That is very well, but we cannot accept th^t ? But that is a mere statement of fact. I am telling you what the engines actually did. 8377. But if they will develop from 900 to 960 horse-power up such a steep incline as 1 in 40, why would they not develop it on the trials you had between Wallerawang and Mount Victoria ? They have done it, they did it on May 11 ; but I did not expect them to do it with a welter weight on such as we had between Wallerawang and Mount Victoria. On that occasion we hauled heavier loads than we did on May 11, and consequently went at slower speed. Supposing the engine is exerting her very maximum tractive power but is only just moving, it is evident that if the motion is infinitely small the horse-power must be infinitely small also, although the engine is exerting her utmost tractive power. Then take the other extreme ; if an engine is going at a very high velocity it will develop a high horse-power, though its tractive force will be very small. 8378. Therefore it is on the incline that we have to measure the performance ? The weights that we hauled between Wallerawang and Mount Victoria were far larger than we should ever haul in actual practice, yet the engine kept time according to the time-table. I may also say that the loads were much larger than we asked the Baldwin Company to make the engines capable of hauling. The horse-power has no commercial value in locomotives. People do not know the indicated horse-power of the great majority of locomotives in the world ; they have no object in finding it out, as it has no value from a pounds-shillings-and-pence point of view, and as a matter of fact it was not referred to in the whole of the correspondence between the Eailway Commissioners and the Baldwin Company. 8379. But pardon me, you did mention the horse-power ? No, we simply stated the load we expected these engines to haul at a given rate of speed. An engine might have indicated a very high horse-power and BALDWIN IiOCOMOTITES INQITIEY COMMISSIOIT— MINUTES OP ITIBENCE. 271 and.still be utterly useless for our purpose. Take an engine like the engine that won the first prize in Mr. D. H. the International Exhibition, 1862, the " Lady of the Lake." She has developed about 800 horse-power, ^«^1«- but she would be utterly useless to us. She would barely haul her own weight up 1 in 30. o^"^;]!"^^, 8380. Yes, but is that not apart from the question? I think not; I think it is rather an apt illus- ''^^7'^^^^- tration. 8381. Well, I know the " Lady of the Lake " very well ; I remember her when first she was built, and have assisted in taking her to pieces, but to compare that engine with these has nothing to do with the question ; it is an absurd comparison ? I think it has a great deal to do with it ; if horse-power has to determine the fitness of the engine, our ten-wheeled engine and the "Lady of the Lake " are fit subjects for comparison. 8382. Ton are trying to show the Commission that the horse-power developed going up an incline has nothing to do with the power of the engine ? I say that the horse-power is not a usual element in calculating the power of an engme on steep inclines, and that the usual criterion of the power of an engine as m the case of our engines working on exceedingly steep inclines is the weight of train hauled. 8388. Not the speed ? Not the speed. f= J r s, 8384. "Well, that is quite another matter altogether. What I want to know is why you ever put into the correspondence the speed at which you expected the engines to haul these loads up given grades, if you were quite indifferent to the speed ? I do not say that we were quite indifferent to the speed ; but what I do say is this : you do not buy these engines for the horse-power they exert, as you buy marine engines, because, as I have explained, the mere fact that an engine can exert good horse-power is no security that she will pull a good load up a given incline, and as a matter of, fact I think these engines have quite exerted the horse-power that was expected of them. 8385. If you put your horse-power at 900 or 960 I think you are fairly within the mark ? That is my calculation. 8386. They have developed that ; but a great deal has been said about this horse-power, as though it had nothing to do with the question, and I do not think that evidence ought to be given to that effect. The case is good enough as it stands — quite ? Tou take a light train and run it up the Picton bank, and you will probably obtain a higher horse-power than we developed on the 11th of May ; but take a heavier train than we hauled — and an engine has taken a heavier train up — and you would probably get a lower horse- power. I say, therefore, that the horse-power up an incline has very little to do with the question. I think you will find on referring to the occasion when the engine exerted its maximum tractive power that the horse-power developed was from 730 to 860. 8387. That was the fourth test ? Yes, but on a grade of 1 in 33 where the engine was exerting 4,000 lbs. less tractive force it developed 1,029 horse-power simply because it was running faster. 8388. Yes, but that was not on a grade ? It was on a grade, but the engine had not dropped down to its work. The driver had not " opened it out." 8389. Yes ; I understand the meaning of the horse-power there, and I should certainly take that out, as the engine had not settled down to her work ; do you agree with that ? In order to get an accurate statement of the horse-power, you should certainly wait until the engine had settled down to her work, but for practical purposes the speed from the top to the bottom of the incline should be taken. 8390. When you said that the engine should exert from 900 to 960, do you mean from the beginning of the incline or after the engine has settled down to her work ? After the engine lias settled down to her work ; but I did not expect that in a gradient of 1 in 30 or 1 in 33. I only expected it to do that on a gradient of 1 in 40. I did not expect it to develop as much horse-power on 1 in 30 or 1 in 33, although it would probably develop more tractive power. 8391. We have 920 in one case. It was hardly on the incline then, and it will show that the engine cou]d do 900? Well, I should like to say that the engine would do much better on the 1 in 40 than she did on the 11th May. When we made the- tests between Wallerawang and Mount Victoria the mean steam-pressure was never lower than 158 lb., and in two trials it was 159 lb., and in another one it, was 162 lb. That was because there are very few people about the footplate and in the cab. The driver was not hampered ; but on the 11th of May the fire was dead when the driver started. On one occassion he started from Picton with steam 20 lb. below the standard, and he would never have done a thing like that in running an express train ; and thus the difference in the steam-pressure will make the train run faster and to develop more horse-power in ordinary work than she did in the test on May 11th up the 1 in 40 gradients. 8392. You have mentioned that, and it is quite right ; but we repeated the second test because of the conditions under which it made it in the first instance ? Yes, and on that fifth test the pressure never was above 155 ; and when the engine had fairly entered the incline, it was only 150. That sort of thing does not occur in regular work. 8393. Yes, but in the 1 in 40 she developed 1029 horse-power, what would you say to that ? What I do say is this — that in ordinary working the engines do better than they do in these tests. 8394. And therefore, since she actually developed 940 up the 1 in 40, the engine is up to what you expected ? It is most decidedly no to what I expected. 8395. The 176 tons at which you' set down in the correspondence to the load that you required hauling up the 1 in 40 gradient slipped into the letter unawares, and as a matter of fact you did not expect it to be hauled at 22 miles an hour? I did not expect 176 tons to be taken up 1 in 40 at 22 miles an hour ; I expected her to take it up a 1 in 40 without sticking, but I thought that she might perhaps lose a little time in doing it. 8396. You expected that she Would pull the extra load, but at a lower rate of speed ? Yes. 8397. That explains the whole thing, and it is a pity that it was not stated at first. 8398. Mr. Fehon (to witness).] What was the result of the modifications made by you in the Specifications as tested by actual working experience ? As far as I am able to judge, the modifications have somewhat improved the steaming powers of the engine. As far as I can judge, they will steam a little better than the Baltimore and Ohio engines. 8399. Professor Warren.'] That is owing to their copper fire-boxes and brass tubes, I suppose ? Yes ; though I do not think there will be much difference. 8400. Mr. Felton.'] What is your opinion as to the effect these engines have on the permanent way ? Well, I have ridden on a great many engines on a great many railways. I have ridden 1,500 miles a week, week 272 EALDWIir IiOCOMOTITES IlS-QriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. Mr. D. H. To-eek after week, and I may say this most emphatically— that better riding engines and better engines to _ ^^^' enter a curve I never set foot upon, and I think that they must be very easy on the permanent way. I 27M^isq2 '''^^'^^ *^^* f°^ *^^®s reasons : — Krst of all, the arrangement of their wheel-base is very good. They have ay. o»2. ^ ^^^^ guiding power round curves, and that is most important. I would like to point out that the highest figure in the diagram of these four typical engines shows these ten- wheeled engines. The manner in which any engine takes the curve is a very important point. Here you have the bogie with four wheels to guide it round a curve, and part of the work of guiding round the curve is done by the leading pair of drivers. If you take the Scotch-Yankee, which, I believe, is a good engine, you will find that they have only two bogie wheels to guide them round curves, and that the rigid wheel-base will make it more difficultf or them to take curves. It is 2 feet 6 inches longer than the rigid wheel-base on the ten- wheel engines. If the road is going to be damaged at all it will be damaged by the leading driving-wheel ; and secondly, we know that the Scotch-Yankee is heavier on the leading driving-wheel than the Baldwin ten-wheeled engine. Therefore, they are more likely to do damage to the permanent way than the ten- wheeled engines, and if anything should go wrong with the bogie — a spring break, or anything else happen — you have in the case of the ten-wheeled engine four bogie wheels to depend upon instead of two. For these reasons I consider that the Baldwin engines are easier on the curves than the Scotch-Yankees. The rigid wheel- base of the Baldwin engine is only 12 feet 6 inches, and that of the Scotch-Yankees is 15 feet. On the Monmouthshire where they have 5-chain curves — much shorter curves than any we have here — we could not use an engine with more than 13 feet rigid wheel-base, and every additional inch in the length of wheel-base tells on sharp curves. For those two reasons I calculate that the Baldwin engines are much easier than the Scotch-Yankees. Then these engines are very well equalized as far as the weight is concerned. I mean by that that the weight on the wheel-base is very well distributed among the various wheels. Often, sitting on an ordinary chair, we find that it is only resting on three legs, and that the fourth leg, instead of being on the ground, is in the air. The weight on the wheels of an English engine is not, as a rule, equalized, and they may, consequently, be compared to four-legged chairs. 8401. Professor PTarren.'] Does that apply to the newly imported engine ? It does to a certain extent ; but I am speaking of English engines generally, which are not so well equalized as American engines. If you take a three-legged stool you may pitch it down anywhere and it will always take a bearing on three points, however uneven the surface, and that is the principle upon which the American engines are built. The wheels of these engines are so equalized that the engine is, in this respect, like a three-legged stool. Put them down as you will, all the wheels bear equally on the rails. It is a very important principle indeed, and it is one that is recognised by the Scotch and English engineers in charge of the Canadian railways. 8402. Yes, but that applies to American roads, A\'hich are very bad ones ; ours are the best roads in the world ? I should be very sorry to say that ours are the best roads in the world. I admit that they are well sleepered, well ballasted, and well looked after generally ; but you cannot call any road first-class in which there are 8-chaui curves and L in .30 gradients on the main line. I say that our road, taking only the .gradients and curves into consideration, renders the Baldwin engines very valuable. There is another point. All American engineers are of opinion that equalisation has a very powerful effect in preventing the engines slipping. Engines in which the weight on the wheel varies are apt to commence slipping, while with a constant weight on the wheels they do not slip. Now it is obvious, that, putting out of the question the permanent way, putting out of the question the curves, equalisation is a very important factor in that respect, because we want engines to pull. We have grades here steeper than any road over the Alps ; we have steeper grades and a greater total height to surmount. 8403-4. President.'] Would it be convenient for Mr. Neale to come on Tuesday. Mr. Brown, who has been obliged to leave the meeting, wants to ask him a few questions, and Professor Warren, I believe, proposes to examine him further. 8405. Mr. Fehon.] I have also a good many questions to put to Mr. Neale- 8406. President.] Well, if Mr. Neale can attend again on Tuesday we had better adjourn the inquiry at this stage until . Will Mr. Eddy be able to attend then ? 8407-8. Mr. FeJion.] Yes, I thiiik so. 8409. President.] He is better, is he? 8410. Mr. Fehon.] Yes ; but he has not been at the office at all during the week. 8411. Professor Warren.] Have you any other witnesses to call, Mr. Eehon, besides Mr. Neale and Mr. Eddy? 8412. Mr. Felwn.] ISTo, I think not. 8413. Professor Warren.] I should like Mr. Deane to be here again. 8414. Mr. Fehon.] Oh, we can get him easily. 8415. Professor Warren.] Then the secretary will give him notice, because Mr. Eddy will not be very long under examination, I suppose ; and Mr. IDeane's further examination will not take more than half an hour. 8416. President.] If Mr. Eddy is not able to come on Tuesday, we shall want him to come some other day. We do not wish to bring him here if he is not quite better ; but we should be glad to know when he wir. be able to come. 8417-18. Mr. Hoyle.] Before we adjourn, I would like to ask this one question. There was a great deal involved in Mr. Eddy's statement that one cannot get out in cross-examination, and I want to know whether, when the case for the Eailway Commissioners is over, I shall be allowed to get into the box and make a statement, which will be a sort of review of the evidence given up to the present. I should also like to put in certain evidence as to the weight of rails being used in America, the spacing of the sleepers there, and other information in connection w ith the whole inquiry. 8419. President.] I thought, Mr. Hoyle, that you had finished your case, and that it was understood that you would not call any more evidence ? 8420. Mr. I£ot/le.] I do not propose to call any further witnesses ; but I am asking now whether the Commission will allow me to make a personal statement, in the nature of a reply to the evidence that has been given by the Railway Commissioners. Mr. Eddy made a very powerful and carefully prepared statement, traversing a very wide range of subjects connected withrailway management. He had the advice of many able officers, backed by the assistance of his entire department. 8421. President.] Well, I hardly like to decide this matter in Mr. Brown's absence, because he may not BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIUT COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 273 agree with my views ; but as far as I am concerned, I thought that you made your stalement at the out- Mr. D. H,- set of the inquiry, and I do not think that we want any statement in the way of advocacy. If it is part ^®''^^- of yourevidence, the Railway Commissioners are making out their case now, you having previously con- n-^TT^'Oo' eluded your case. I would like you to think the matter over, and if you still wish to make a statement ^^' ask the question again on Tuesday, when Mr. Brown will be present. 8422. Mr. H(,yle.'] Well, I would' state this that many of the statements made by Mr. Eddj cannot be borne out by tacts, whilst I believe, that I am in a position to contradict them by a statement of facts if I am only permitted to make it. 8423. President '] The way in which what you seek to do is done in a court is this, you put a witness in a box, perhaps a doctor, and he is describing the effect of some poison, and you want to get in some authority who does not agree with him which is much the same as getting in a document as you wish to do in this instance. Tou say to him, " Have you read such and such a book," he says " Yes," or " No," as the case may be, and then you proceed to ask him whether he knows that that authority says " so and so." 8424. Mr. So^le.] Then sir, I will make the application as you suggest on Tuesday, and if it is not granted I shall then do the best I can to get at the facts I want to adduce in the course of cross-examina- tion; but I must say that Mr. Eddy made a very exhaustive statement which was fully published in the newspapers, and I think it is only just to myself that I should endeavour to obtain equal publicity to the facts that 1 am able to bring forward. The time will come when I shall have to face my constituents— I am under a pledge to do so at the termination of this inquiry— and I am naturally anxious that they should have as fair an opportunity of judging for themselves the gravity of my allegations as possible. 8425. Fresident.] Quite so, Mr. Hoyle, but I have no doubt that the representatives of the press, if asked to do so, will give equal pul^licity to anything that vou may say that they have given to the statement of Mr. Eddy. 8426. Mr. Fehon.] I presume, Mr. President, that Mr. Eddy is coming here for the purpose of being examined upon the statements that he made the other day. 8427. President.'] Yes. 8428. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Hoyle will then I imagine have every opportunity of eliciting any information that he desires, but I do not see how, having once finished his case, he can in fairness ask to be allowed to go again into the witness box. TUESDAY, 31 MAT, 1892. [The Commission met in tJie Soard-room, Oolonial Secretarifs Office, at 2 o'clocTcp.m.] present: — F. E. EOGERS, Esq., Q.C, Peesident. Peofessoe WAREEN, M.I.C.E. | ALEXANDER BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P. Mr. Deane, recalled: — R429. Professor Warren.] I wish to ask you some questions, Mr. Deane, about the Solitary Creek and ^•'' Deane. AVollondilly bridges, and especially with regard to the actual factor of safety existing in those structures '' — "^ — ^ fit the present time ; — the particular point to which I wish you to direct your attention is with regard to ^^ ^^y^ ^^^^- ihe maximum intensity of the tensile strength of these bridges when loaded with the Baldwin engines? I find the stress very heavy with these engines, one calculation shows it to be 8'24 tons per square inch, but I myself make it a little more than that in another calculation, indeed a good deal more, I make it up to 9 tons per square inch. 8430. That shows the tensile strength on the bottom fiange of the Wollondilly bridge ? Yes. 8431. What then would be the breaking strength with the range of stress which exists in the Solitary Creek bridges ; — what is the breaking strength with regard to the range of stress ? The breaking stress with Launhart's formula would be 15'6 tons, and that would give a factor of safety of less than two. H432. That is to say, there is not a factor of safety of two in the bridges ? Yes. That is to say, taking the more modern way of computing these things. If you merely took the breaking strength of the material itself the factor of safety would be more than I have stated. It would be undesirable to run any- heavier weight upon these bridges. I do not believe there is any immediate danger, but it must be remembered that every time an engine goes over these bridges it exhausts so much of their life. I have strongly recommended that steps should be taken to strengthen them, and I believe that that is now being done. 8433. It means that when one of these bridges has had the 5,000,000 applications of its maximum stress there would be a factor of safety of 1'7 ? Yes. 8434. So that you recommend that these bridges should be strengthened ? Yes. 8435. So that there is no allowance in these calculations for the dynamic effects, except in Launhart's formula ? No. 8436. That gives practically the dynamic eff'ect ? Yes. 8437. Have you tried the Wollondilly bridges ? No ; I have not tried them specially. I have no particulars with me, but I have examined all the bridges to see what should be done to them, 8438. Prom what you saw of these bridges you recommend that they should be strengthened m a similar way, is that so ? Yes, undoubtedly. 8439. The proposal that Mr. Eoxlee has made to strengthen these bridges is a girder in the centre and underneath the bridges ; — do you agree with that proposal ? Yes. I discussed that matter with Mr. Poxlee some time ago, and that was the -conclusion we came to, namely, that the bridge should be strengthened in that way. There is plenty of room between the flood level and the under side of the bridge to insert a third girder. 8440. I would like to ask you another question, Mr. Deane. Do you consider that the Board of Trade rules are good rules for determining the working stresses of bridges ? Do you mean their rules for tension and compression strains ? 6—2 M 8441. "'* BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIET COMMISSION — MINOTES OP EVIDENCE. Mt. Deane, 8441. Tes. I mean tie rules which give 4 toDS and 5 tons as the required stresses. They say nothing, you ilit^^i^ ""^ll remember, about the range of stresses or alternating stresses, but simplytake the 4 tons and 5 tons ? ay, 1891. j^ jg g^ convenient rule for ordinary structures, but, of course, it is not scientific. 8442. Have you seen f ormul© that have been proposed by the French Grovernment recently. They are recorded in Engineering, and were given about a couple of months ago. They give the working stresses for both iron and steel bridges ? No ; I do not think I have seen it. 8443. It is almost identical with Launhadt's formula. All I mean to say is that the formula given by him has become generally recognised as the proper system to go upon. It is now beyond discussion that the working strength should depend upon the range of strength, is that not so ? Tes. 8444. Tour keys, those in your bridge, are, I believe, 6 by 3. I am not certain what the size of the Grlenlee bridges keys are. Tou would not think the keys excessive in this bridge ? [P/a« of bridge pro- dueedi] I think that is a convenient size, and such as would answer the purpose. 8445. If you were designing a beam so as to make it carry its greatest load would you not make the keys larger than you have done here ? Theoretically, they should be larger towards the end, and I should not make them any smaller than that. I am not sure about the size of the keys in the Glenlee bridge. They are a little smaller, I believe, but I do not think that of very great importance, but I think the span is somewhat smaller also. 8445|. Do you not think the beam in your viaduct, and the same would apply to the Crlenlee bridge, would be stifEer if the keys were made larger, and consequently the beams would carry a little more ? Tes. 8446. Tou have made these keys smaller for convenience, I suppose ? Tou have to take into considera- tion that the keys work loose occasionally ; they require constant supervision to see that they are tight. If made very large they would still get loose, and, of course, the bridge would then be depending too much upon the reduced section of the girders, so that I think it would be undesirable to have them larger, or, at all events, very much larger than shown here. 8447. Tou have not any in the centre ? No ; merely in the ends. In the centre there is very little horizontal shear. 8448. Then this is designed to resist the horizontal shearing stress ? Tes. 8449. Provided the bolts are kept tight there would be very little stress ? 8450. I am not hinting that the bridge is not strong enough, but a question having arisen as to the bridges, I thought I would ask your opinion about it ; I see that you have twice the shearing resistance in your case, besides there are only two wedges in the corbels, whereas you have four, so that makes four times the sheering resistance, and apparently there are only two attached to the end of the beam, so that you have a larger amount of sheering resistance in your viaduct ? Tes ; the keys are small, but in 'spite of that I consider that the bridge is perfectly safe. The spans are shorter, and there is also another point about it. Taking the bridge as a girder, there is an additional stringer on the top of the transomes, running along the top of the bridge. 8461. The Guard? Tes. 8452. I have to test that bridge, and work out the calculations of it, and that is the reason I have asked you the questions I have just put. There are six ironbark beams in each span, 12 x 12 ; they are fully 12 x 12, in the Glenlee bridge, in your case, they are slightly less ; the centre ones there are 11 x 12, I think, 80 that there are six beams carrying the load ? There is the small additional strength given by the kerb. 8453. That is only spiked ? No ; it is bolted through. It seems, according to this drawing, to be bolted right through, so as to form part and parcel of the structure. 8454. So that it would seem that the Glenlee bridge is as strong as your viaduct, except that there are two extra guard timbers ; that should be a set-off against the small size of the keys ? Yes. 8455. I think that is all I have to ask, Mr. Deane. 8456. Mr. Brown.'] Do you want to ask any questions, Mr. Pehon? 8457. Mr. Fehon.] No. 8455. Professor Warren.] Do you, Mr. Hoyle ? 8456. Mr. Spyle.] No. D. H. Neale, recalled :— Mr. 8460. Mr. Fehon.] Have the Baldwin engines any features in which, in your opinion, they are superior to V."*/!^ *^® engines previously in use ? Tes ; I think they have many features in which they are superior to the ii'iirTms °*^®'' engines in use. They have, for example, a very efficient means of lagging the boiler, preventing the ^^' ' radiation of heat, and the regulator is also very efficient and very convenient for the driver, enabling him to regulate the motion of the engine very easily and exactly.' The brake on the driving-wheels, which few of our other engines have, is of very great importance, especially on our steep inclines. These features are of course entirely independent of the great power and flexibility of the engines to which I have already alluded. 8461. Have you investigated their consumption of fuel ? I have, with the Consolidation engines, and owing to the large loads they draw the consumption per unit of load hauled is 75 per cent, of that of the goods Mogul engiiues formerly in use. 8462. What has been your experience in other railways with new engines ? It is a well-known fact that new engines always give trouble, and that is especially so in the case of a new type of engine. I have been connected with many railways, and I could give you a long list of failures in almost every part of an engine. All sorts of trouble arise with new engines, the most prevalent being inability to make steam, and the next incapacity to haul loads required of them. Many other troubles arise, the source of which it is often difficult to detect. 8463. Did the defects you have mentioned occur in engines well designed and built? Tes ; it is a well- known fact that engines built by some of our most skilful engineers, and turned out of the largest locomotive shops, have had to be started with their trains by means of a pinch-bar. There have also been new engines which have thrown their coupling rods into adjacent fields. Others have frequently broken away from their tenders, although coupled together with exceedingly strong couplings, in fact, all sorts of troubles have arisen in connection with new engines. 8464. BAIDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIBT COMMISSION— MINITTEa OP ETIDENCE. 275 8464. Then do you say that engineers generally are agreed that it is practically impossible for new engines Mr. to have an entire immunity from failures P I never knew of any new engines that had such an immunity. ^' ^' ^«als. 8465. Have the Baldwin engines on our lines shown any of the defects you have enumerated, as occurring -(TT"*"^, in new engines, in your experience ? No, they have not ; they have steamed well, and they have pul^d *^ '^^' "^*' their loads,_and shortcomings in these respects are the two most important kinds of failures that ocour in new engines. 8466. Do you say that they have hauled their specified loads ? Yes ; and more than their specified loads. 8467. Is it not exceptional for engines to haul more than'their stipulated load in regular working ? Yes ; it is decidedly exceptional. 8468. Do you consider that the quality of the axles could have been detected earlier than it was ? No ; I do not see how it could have possibly been detected earlier than it was, and I may state that I have had similar experience with regard to, other engines that were otherwise well built. After running for a little time the tires all stretched and showed themselves to be soft and became loose. I do not suppose, thafe the makers could have possibly anticipated that. I do not see how their quality could have been detected earlier than it was. 8469. Are scraj)-iron axles cheaper than steel axles ? No ; they are dearer. '8470. It was left to the Baldwin Company to determine whether they would supply scrap-iron Or steel axles, was it not ? Yes. 8471-2. And you consider that they exercised proper judgment in sending us iron axles ? Yes ; I. think they did. It is a matter of opinion whether iron or steel axles are the best, and the Baldwin Company acted on its experience, and I do not think they could have done better than they did. 8473. Then the reason for selecting scrap-iron instead of steel axles was not because there was any economy in it ? Certainly not. 8474. Why are tests of scrap axles not usually made ? Because a test of one axle is no certain criterion of the strength of the whole of them. • 8475. Why is steel more generally tested than iron ? Because a very small difference in the chemical composition, such as, for example, a fraction of 1 per cent, more or less of phosphorus in the composition of the steel would make all the difference. It is, therefore, necessary to test every batch in order to make sure of the quality of the material. 8476. Can you tell us whether iron or steel axles are more frequently used in Great Britain ? Well, for the crank axles iron is very nearly as much in use in England as steel, and as this is a part which is exposed to very violent strains, and is consequently liable to fail, iron is used as the more trustworthy material. 8477. Have you any figures showing the accidents resulting from broken axles in Great Britain ? Yes. I have compiled some figures on that subject from the Board of Trade returns. From these returns it will be seen that 245 leading or trailing axles were broken in ten years, and only two accidents resulted) and only one life was lost, the axle having run 619,414 miles, and being flawed. 8478. So that the chances would be about 1 in 100? Yes. 8479. ^Professor Warren?^ Will you put that return in ? Yes. 8480. Mr. Fehon.] Have you examined the driving-wheels of these engines, and do you consider them sound or not? I have, and consider them to be perfectly sound. 8481. Professor Warren.^ Do you refer to the driving-wheels ? Yes ; the driving-wheels. 8482. Mr. JFehon.] Have you had much experience in making locomotive wheels ? Yes, I have ; and I understand the process thoroughly. I have had to inspect hundreds of locomotive wheels being made, and can speak with a good deal of confidence upon that point. 8483. Do you know the process by which these wheels are made ? Yes ; I understand the process, and I think it a very good one ; I consider it to be better than the ordinary English practice, because there are no transverse welds, and therefore a faulty weld cannot be so serious as in an ordinary wheel. 8484. How do you account for what some people consider to be flaws in these wheels ? In making the wheels the iron is pressed in an hydraulic press, and any surplus iron may flow over under the pressure, and consequently partly cover the spokes. 8485. Do you consider the hoop on the boss of the bogie wheels needs fastening as much as tires do ; — do you consider that it should be fastened on the same way as tires ? No ; I do not think it at all necessary. I have seen similar hoops upon wheels elsewhere, and they have been running for years. A tire is likely and liable to be heated by the brake blocks ; it is continually hammered on the rail, and that stretches it ; it also gets hammered sideways on the rail, and all these things tend to loosen it, but the hoops have nothing of that kind to contend against, consequently they are not so likely to get loose as the tire is. 8486. It is a very common practice is it not ? I will not say that it is a very common practice, but I have seen these hoops on thousands of wheels, 8487. Is the thickness of the smoke-box tube-plate in accordance with general American practice ? Yes ; I looked that question up, and went through a number of drawings of American locomotives, and I found only one that was one-sixteenth thinner, all the rest were of the same thickiiess. 8488. What is the height of the centre of the boiler as compared with that of other express engines ? Well, it is lower than a good many express engines. Tor example, the Central of New Jersey, an express engine running at an extremely high speed is 9 inches higher than our Baldwin engine, Baltimore and Ohio engines, i| inches higher, the New York Central engine which runs the Empire State express, the fastest train in the world, and going around numerous curves, is 10|: inches higher. Philadelphia and Beading express is 1 foot higher. Cleveland, Oincinatti, Chicago and St. Louis express is the same as ours. The North Eastern Eailway, in England, express is 2 inches higher— and one of the engines is 1 ' inch lower. [The Great Northern Standard express engines, which have for many years run about the fastest trains in England, is 5i inches lower, but the wheel is 3 feet greater in diameter. Of course the vital thing in these matters is, what is the height of the centre of gravity above the rails, and I find on making an approximate calculations that the Great Northern express engine is about 3 inches higher in the centre of gravity than the Baldwin engines running here, therefore I thmk our centre of gravity is perfectly safe, that is to say our ten-wheeled locomotives have a lower centre of gravity than any of the English and American engines I have just quoted. The North-eastern express engine which has attained the highest speed ever made in England, 86 miles .an hour, is about 6 inches higher m the centre of gravity than our Baldwin engines, and I find the same generally with regard to other engines. President.l Did you say 86 miles an hour ? Yes ; that was accurately ascertained. -' -^ 8490. 276 3ALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQXIIIIY COMMISSION — MIHUTES OF EVIDENCE. D. H. Neale. l.^^?' V^^^ ^° ^"^ consider our height at the centre of b9iler excessive ? Certainly not. I put in a table of figures on this point aHMa^, 1892, Heights New South Wales Government Railways, of centre of Boiler, Gravity, &c., various Express Locomotives. Kailways. No. of wheels coupled Centre of boiler above rail. Diameter of wheels. Diame- ter boiler. Weight engine working order. Centre of gravity above rail. Fire-box above or between frames. Remarks. Dr ving Bogie. Central of New Jersey ... Baltimore and Ohio 4 6 4 4 6 6 2 4 2 6 6 ft. in. 8 6 7 lOJ 8 7i 8 9 7 9 8 5i 7 11 7 8 7 3J 7 9 7 8 ft. in. 5 8 5 2 6 6 6 6 5 6 5 8 7 7i 6 8i 8 li 5 1 5 OJ ft. in. 3 2 6i 3 4 2 6 2 9 I trailing. ] 3 71 3 11 2 6 inches 58 64 58 574 60 60 51 57i 50 62 58 ton cwt. 55 6 59 8 57 1 50 58 13 58 46 13 (about) 47 10 45 3 58 56 15 ft. 5 13 4-60 5-24 5-22 5 03 4-79 4-79 4-52 Above Between. Above Wootton above » Between. Above. Between ... do do do do Runs regularly over 70 miles per hour. New York Central Eunsfastesttrain in world Philadelphia and Beading Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago, and St. Louis. Erie North-Eaatern over numerous curves. Runs regularly over 70 miles per hour. ( Attained highest speed, < 86 miles per hour, ever ( made in England. Runs fastest train on linp Do Great Northern over sharp curves. New South Wales Do England for many years. Note. — The New South Wales ten-wheelers have, therefore, a lower centre of gravity than any of the above English and American engines, though the lattdr comprise engines running the fastest trains in the world. D. H. NEALE. 8491. Do you consider the power of the engine unduly strains the draw-gear at the rear end of the tender ? No, I do not ; and I have made some calculations showing the strain on the rear of the tender that is upon the couplings there. The two following tables show the maximum working strain on the draw-gear with ordinary goods trains working loads. Gradient. No. loaded waggons. No. bogie brake-vans. Weight of train behind tender. Total tractive power of engine. Total draft back of tender max. strain on draw-gear. Safe load en draw- gear-quarter breaking strain on draw-hook. 1-30 20 1-33 22 1-40 30 1-50 35 1-60 42 Gonsolidatio n engines. tons. lb. lb. 196 23,781 15,876 216 23,238 15,984 288 23,990 17,852 336 23,181 17,136 394 21,313 16,942 lb. 25,200 American ien-wheeled engines. 1-30 13 15 20 25 31 137 156 197 248 297 18,747 18,294 18,152 17,598 16,841 11,097 11,544, 12,212 12,648 12,971 1-33 1-40 1-50 1-60 8492. Professor Warren.'] Then will you give me the breaking strength of the draw-gear ? Yes ; from the table I hate just quoted you will see that 25,200 lb. is the safe load on the draw-gear. 8493. Then what do you say is the breaking strain ? Porty-flve tons. 8494. That is about a factor of 4 ? Tes. These draw-hooks have all been tested, and have been found to be good iron with a great elongation. I think it is safe, certainly, at that figure. It is a strain of about 6 tons per square inch in tension. 8495. That is a steady pull of 6, tons, not a jerk ? Tes, a steady pull. It would be a high strain for inferior iron, but this is as good iron as we could possibly get, we have taken every precaution to get good elastic iron, and so I think it is perfectly safe. 8496. "What are the other qualities ? Tensile strength in all cases above what we asked for, and so is the elongation. 8497. What did you ask for ? I could not tell at the present moment, there is a little difference for the links, the draw-hooks, and the draw-bar. 8498. Mr. Fehon.] To put it in another way. How many times the hauling strength of the engine would the draw-gear be? I think the hauling power of the engine is about three-fifths of the safe load of the draw-gear. 8499. Professor Warren.] So that the other two-fifths will go for shock? Tes, and there are also springs which are supposed to take up the shock. 8500. Mr. Fehon.] Has there ever been any breakage of draw-gear since the heavier hooks have been put on ? Not that I am aware of, I have never heard of any breakage. 8501. It has been alleged that negligence has been displayed in not supplying the Works Manager with a copy of the specifications of these engines when they arrived ; — can you tell us what is the usual practice on English railroads in this respect ? It is not the usual custom to supply the Works Manager with a copy of the specifications, for this reason, that up to the time the engine arrives the Chief Draughtsman is the BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIKr COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 277 the person responsible for it. He has (under the instructions of the Locomotive Superintendent) designed Mr. it, made the drawings, and conveys instructions of the Inspector. "When the engine arrives, it is turned ^- H. N«ale. over to a fresh officer (the Works Manager), and he, by inspecting the engine independently of the speci- „/7^^^0„ fication,is a checkbothon the maker and on the specification. It might be that the Chief Draughtsman had *^^ ^^^' ^"^^• made errors m the design and also in the specification, and if the Works Manager simply saw that the engines were made in accordance with the specifications, he would not check their accuracy ; but not doing so, he ascertains if the engine is fit for the work she has to do and can be sent out and maintained in order hereafter. _ If he finds anything wrong about the construction of the engine, he calls attention to it, and then possibly it will be found that the error has been made in the specification, and the Chief Draughtsman will then be called to account for it. 8502. Is the brake gear on the engine of a pattern used in the United States ? Yes ; it is of a pattern which is largely used in the United States, and it is highly esteemed, being regarded as the best in use for that purpose. 8503. Has not the question of the relative superiority of the ten-wheeled engine over the Mogul engine been discussed by the Master Mechanics' Association ? Yes ; I think I have the report of that discussion with me, but I cannot find it at present. [The Beport was put in later.] 8501. Generally speaking, what was the tenor of that report ? The question was discussed by the master mechanics' and whilst there was some little difference of opinion on the matter, the general concensus of opinion was in favour of the ten-wheeled engine for passenger trains. They considered that the four- wheeled bogie gave a greater margin of safety than the two-wheeled bogie. They also discussed the links which regulate the play of the bogie, and whilst there was also some difference of opinion about that, I can certainly say there is no question that vertical links are unsafe or dangerous, and riding upon the engines would show this to be the case, they ride extremely well. There is no fault to find with them. It is all very well to say that theoretically the vertical links are bad, but you must ride upon them and judge by experience ; certainly, in this respect, the Baldwin engines are irreproachable. 8505. Has your attention been drawn to a discussion in the proceedings of the Master Mechanics' Association as to the weight on a wheel for given weights of rail ? Yes ; a report was presented and discussed in June of last year, and the report thereon was drawn up by five members, three of whom I know, personally, Messrs. Pulaski Leeds, C. E. Smart, and James Meehan. These gentlemen represented large railway companies, and had charge of about 1,000 locomotives, running on 6,000 miles of road, and they stated that they considered 14 tons 6 cwt. was a safe load for rails under 60 lb., and 16 tons for rails above 60 lb. and that was not traversed in any way whatever in subsequent discussions, though it was suggested that the tyres would wear faster with the heavier weights. 850(5. Have you any figures as to the American practice on different lines as regards the weight on wheels with certain weights of rails ? Yes ; I have some figures, which I have taken from Poor's Manual, which is the standard authority in America for the earnings, history, oflBcers, weights of rail, &c., in connection with the various railway companies. I have taken also the Railroad Gazette as my authority for the weights of the engines, and I find there that the relative weights are as follows : — Railway. Maximum weight on one axle. Weight of Bteel rail per yard per ton on each wheel. Lightest rail. Heaviest rail. Central of New Jersev Tons. 19 15 17 17 15 15. 15 15 14 15 17 17 15 16 cwt. 14 14 16 6 9- 6 18 10 15 5i 2 lb. lb. 6'3 7-1 Baltimore and Ohio 8-5 7-4 9-0 66 10-6 C. C. C. and St. Louis 8-8 Erie about 7-4 7-2 7-3 10'-8 9'''2 8 '5 8 '7 Atchison, Topeka, and St. Fe ^ Cheaaneake and Ohio 8-4 9-8 L, andN. W. R 11-6 North Elastem 10-1 (rreat Northern 9-6 N S W (10- wheeled Baldwin) 10-4 11-0 8507. Have you devoted some attention to the question of permanent-way ? Yes ; I have for a great many years. 8508. What have you found to be the most frequent causes of derailment ? I find from the Board of Trade returns, and from such information as I can get in S;ydney, that the most frequent_ cause is some- thing the matter with the switches, and next to that something the matter with the fastenings of the rail. Of course there are a great many other causes, such as decayed sleepers, and the train being allowed to run at too high a speed over places where ballast has been removed for repacking, also from various other causes. I find that broken rails are a very infrequent cause of accident. 8509. Professor Warren.'] Like axles ? Yes. 8510. Mr. Fehon.] Are breakages of rails of frequent occurrence in England ? I have searched the Board of Trade returns carefully, and I find that the total number of broken rails during twelve and a half complete years was 6,005. . . , ,. 8511. That is about 500 a year? About 480. There were in the North British line 893 broken rails in one year, and no one was injured. During that year there were 1,541 rails broken altogether in the United Kingdom. In the whole of those twelve and a half years these 6,005 broken rails resulted in accidents in which only one person was killed and foriy-one injured. 8512. Have not the Baldwin engines up to date run over 500,000 miles on the railways of JNew South Wales, that is half a million of miles ? Yes ; I believe they have. 8513. And with the exception of the defective axles and one or two other small defects made good by the Company have they not done their work in a very admirable manner, and given the greatest satisfaction- 2?S BiXDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQITIET COMMISSION — MINTJTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. X».E.Neale. 31 May. 1892. in keeping time and drawing heavy loads ? Tea, they have done their work in a very satisfactory manner. The return of the loads that they draw passes through my hands, therefore, I am in a position to make this statement. They have drawn the maximum load which we gave them to draw regularly day after day. 8514. Has not their performance proved a complete contradiction to everything said against them by Mr. floyle ia his speech in Parliament on the 20th August last, which statements form the subject of this inquiry ? I think most undoubtedly they have. 8515. President.} If Mr. Hoyle had objected to that question I should not have admitted it. 8516. Mr. Royle.'] Oh, I do not object to it. 8517. President.'] You should not put such a question to the witness, we have nothing to do with what Mr. Hoyle may have said in Parliament. 8518. Mr. JfeAow.] Very well, I shall put a question or two in detail. 8519. Mr. Brown^ Oh, I do not thinlc we require that. 8520. President.] We think the evidence Mr. Neale gives wiU be quite sufficient for your purpose. He s^s in effect that these engines completely answer your expectations, and are not defective in any way. 8521. Mr. Fehon.] Well, it was rather a comprehensive question, perhaps as you say so, I had better not refer to the subject of Mr. Hoyle's speech. 8522. President.] No, I think it would be better not. 8523. Mr. Fehon.] Then I shall refrain from referring to it. 8524'. President.] Tes ; I think it is just as well. There are three distinct matters this Commission has to inquire into, whether the engines are defective, whether they are unsuitable for the permanent way of the railways of New South Wales, and whether they are doing what was expected of them. 8525. Mr. Pehon.] So far as the Eailway Commissioners are concerned, it takes a much wider scope ; it attacks our administration. 8526. Mr. Brown.] We are not trying the Eailway Commissioners, Mr. Fehon. 8527. Mr. Pehon.] Tou would not find them wanting if you were. 8528. Witness.] Since you have referred to the question of the engines doing what was expected of them, I may state that I have here a diagram showing the difEerent loads the engines haul. It gives the tons hauled and the grades ori which they were drawn. [Diagram produced and earplained to the Commission.] The loads in this diagram are all goods train loads, taking a goods train speed, which is, of course, slow in going up an incline. Three dots indicated upon this diagram show that the ten-wheeled Baldwin engines have actually hauled these loads at a passenger speed, that it is to say, they have hauled at a passenger speed what we only expected them to haul at a goods train speed. 8529-30. Mr. Fehon.] With the experience of the work these engines do and the opportunities we have had of testing their suitableness for the New South Wales railways, could we do better to-day, supposing the same necessity should arise, than purchase similar engines, with the exception only of stipulating for steel axles instead of iron axles ? I do not think we could order more suitable engines for the New South Wales railways than the ten-wheeled and Consolidation engiues we possess to-day. 8531. Professor Warren.] Tou state that the passenger engines haul a much heavier load at passenger speed than you expected them to haul ? Tes ; than we expected them to haul at a goods train speed. 8532. The dots on the diagram you have produced, do they show that these engines haul 150 tons at 22 miles an hour on a gradient of 1 in 40 ? They show that they haul a bigger load at a slower speed. 8533. That is, a load of 195f tons at what speed ? On this gradient of 1 in 40 there was a long reverse curve of 10 chains radius and a piece of 1 in 37"5 in the middle of it. They hauled that load at \2\ miles an hour, and that would equal passenger speed. All trains go very slowly over that bad piece. 8534. Amd you say that is better than hauling 150 tons 22 miles an ,hour up a grade of 1 in 40 ? Tes, I consider it to be better. 8535. It is a far lower horse-power ? Tes ; but as I have tried to explain, horse-power varies according to speed. I have plotted out the performances of the engines on this diagram which I produce. The red line on this diagram shows the performance over the Picton grade of 1 in 40 ; they are a little the lowest, because the fire had not burnt up. The green dots show the Baltimore and Ohio engine performances, and the black show the Wallerawang trials. It is obvious from this diagram that all these performances are nearly equa.1, and that there is very little to choose between them. The black curves on the diagram show the indicated horse-power. The following table shows the mean results obtained on the trials of a Baldwin 10- wheeled engine on May 15th of this year, of the Baltimore and Ohio engines in May, 1891, and the Wallerawang trials on April 11th, 1892. So, ot Tesk. Maximum Grade. Mean speed whole len^h of gradient. Mean Boiler Pressure. Mean Initio] Pressure. Mean I.H.P.* Mean Tractive Power.* Mean speed at which diagrams were taken. Picton Trials {JST.S.W.), May 15, 1892. 1 1-40 2 1-40 .5' 1^0 3 1-30 4 1-30 1-46-3 1-46-3 1-46-3 1-46-3 1-56 1-33 1-40 1-50 m.p.h. 18- 5 20-15 21-09 18-87 16-71 22- io-'? 18- 5 lb. 146 148 149 155 153i lb. 137 137 133 142 143 Baltimore and, Ohio, M!ay, 1891. 150 1464 149 '157" 812 830 874 865 777 968 857 825 791 933 Wallerawang Trials {N.S.W.), Ajpril 11, 1892. 162 159 159 754 652 694 lb. 17,661 16,461 16,270 18,064 19,455 15,676 16,656 18,420 16,945 17,288 19,500 19,600 18,250 m.p.h. 17-23 18-90 20-30 18- 15- 23- 4 19- 3 16- 8 17- 6 20- 3 14- 5 12- 5 14- 3 * These figures are mean results obtained on the last 1| or 2 miles of gradient. 8536. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQTJIEY COMMISSION— MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 27fl 8536. I should say that since I was last under examination I have studied the report of the Baltimore Mr. D. H. and Ohio trials, which I think the Commission has already seen, and the result of my examination is that Neale. I find a little different value should be attached to that report with regard to the speeds stated therein. >~^'- — ^ We intended tha-t the speed of 22 miles an hour should refer to the speed from the foot to the top of the ^^ "^^y- ^^Sa- incline of the 1 in 40. The Baltimore and Ohio Company in their trial seem to refer to the speed from the station near the bottom of the incline to the station near the top. The whole incline averages 1 in 51, whereas they give the maximum of 1 in 45. It is evident to my mind that you cannot judge of engines from expectation, you must judge from what they have actually done, and the diagram I have explained to the Commission shows what they have actually done. I dare say that the Baltimore and Ohio engines had not been tested m that accurate way previous to May, 1891, and it was quite allowable under the circumstances for the general superintendent of motive power of that line to speak in the way he has done, as quoted in Messrs.' Towns' letter of December 15,1890. It was merely a point of Bcienlafle interest to ascertain what was the speed obtained on that portion of the line on a grade of 1 in 40. For example, if the Chief Commissioner were to say, "I want a train to run from Penrith to Katoomba at 20 miles an hour," he would not tell you the exact speed on any particular incline, but would only allude to the train arriving within that time at the particular station indicated ; that I think was how this misapprehension has arisen. 8537. Professor Warren.'] "Where engines haul a load up an incline, is not the speed proportionate to the horse-power exerted ? Yes, and the result ought to be the same with the same engine and the same gradient, but here we have to compare different gradients and difierent engines. 8538. The load of 152 tons at 22 miles an hour up a grade of 1 in 40, does not that really express the maximum hauling power of that engine at that speed ? Tes. 8539. So that we are not confounding it with other grades? Messrs. Towns & Co., in their letter of 15th December, 1890, quote a letter from the Baldwin Works, as follows :-r-" In order to compare the stipulated performance with what the B. and O. engines are actually performing in daily service, we telegraphed the general superintendent of motive power of that company, enquiring as to the latter, and have the following telegram in reply : — ' Have never had maximum load weight taken up 17-mile grade by 1,300 class engine. It is about 240 net tons at schedule speed of 22 miles per hour, exclusive of, weight'of engine and tender. The 240 tons of 2,000 lbs. are equal to 214 tons of 2,240 lbs. There is much curvature on the 117-ft. grade, and we are informed that in some places the actual grade con- siderably exceeds 117 feet per mile. The latter is the theoretical grade, as shown by the profiles.' " When he says that, he does not say that it is on the 117-ft. grade that the speed was 22 miles an hour, but that the speed from Piedmont to Altamont, 16-8 miles distant, is 22 miles an hour. Now a great deal of that distance is on a grade of 1 in 45, and some of it 1 in 182, but the average is 1 in 51 and not 1 in 45. 8540. Tou are certain of that,? Tes. 8541. Could you show us a profile of it? Tes ; you will find it on that page of the report of the Baltimore and Ohio trials in your hand. The height of each station above the sea is given in the profile, and the distances are given in another table. By dividing one with the other I get an average of 1 in 51, and it is on that that a speed of 22 miles per hour was obtained. It is true that upon this piece of road there is a grade of 1 in 45, but the actual speed there is 19'8 miles. 8542. Does not the letter imply that it is on a grade of 1 in 45 ? Tes ; it is not quite clear, but I never expected the engines to do that. Only a few years ago it was very doubtful whether it was possible for an engine to indicate 1,000 horse-power under the most favourable conditions, and to expect an engine to realize 1,100 horse-power at a speed of 22 miles an hour is beyond reasonable expectation. 8543. Do you know the Sailroad Gazette ? Tes. 8544. Do you consider it to be a reliable paper ? Tes. 8545. Then I shall quote from the Railroad Gazette for the year 1890, page 421, as follows: — "The Baldwin Locomotive Works built for the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad a 10-wheeled express locomotive having 21 x 26 inch cylinders, under a guarantee to haul seven passenger cars up. a 117-ft. grade 17 miles long, at 25 miles per hour. This engine has been put in service, and has more than met the guarantee ; it hauls readily eight cars up the grade mentioned. At that speed and up that grade the engine is performing over 1,300 horse-power of work, considering the total train load to be 440 tons. The weight on drivers is 102,000 lb. The total weight is 133,000 lb." (Witness) : Tou have stated 440 tons, that is probably a misprint for 240 tons. Experiments were afterwards made by Mr. Barnes of the Mailrmd Gazette, in order to test accurately the performance of these Baltimore and Ohio engines, and he found that he did get 1,300 horse-power. 8546. Have you worked this out ? Tes. 8547. Do you not think that 440 tons hauled up a 117-ft. grade of 17 miles long, at 25 miles an hour, would amount to a great deal more than 1,300 horse-power ? American tons ? 8548. Tes, given American tons, you see how much it exceeds our performances ? Tes j but I have already stated that it is founded on a misprint. 8549. I quite agree with you that it was a misprint, it should have been 240 tons ? Tes ; audit is stated in the letter of December 15, 1890, that the probable maximum load was about 240 net tons, at 22 miles per hour. 8550. But the 240 tons would be about equivalent to about 1,300 horse-power, whereas the actual load they give is more nearly 1,900 horse-power ? The 440 tons is evidently a mistake. The 1,300 horse- power was done, but it was when they were running at the foot of the incline on a grade of 1 in 132, at 30 miles per hour. S551. Eunning down ? No ; running up. And the driver probably put the lever over preparatory to striking the grade, and when he did so he got that recorded horse-power. 8552. That simply means the indicated horse-power was wrongly obtained ? Tes. An English loco- motive superintendent, some years ago, obtained a miximum of 1,000 horse-power ; but it was a tour de force, and he did it by putting the engine in full gear whilst running at 60 miles per hour,_ and at that time he obtained one diagram showing a horse-power of ] ,000 ; but that is, I think, of no scientific value. 8553. Does not your diagram show the work that is done ? Tes ; but you only get credit in this diagram for the work you actually do in that particular time. Our inquiries have been directed to the engines hauling a train up the 1 in 40 grade. 8554. 280 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEY COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ^^P- "?• ,8555. And the indicated horse-power has all to do with that question ? No. As I have previously stated _^^^' an engine would develop its maximum horse-power running down hill or on a level at high speed, whereas 31 M Tsqs! ■^^ want an engine that can climb gradients. ^^' ^" 8556. Mr. Fehon.] We never mentioned the horse-power in ordering engines. 8557. Professor Warren.'] But you have what is ooiiivalent to that, the load, the grade, and the speed. 8558. Witness.'] Yes. ' , • t i • , , 8559. And you have got a very fair bargain if you do not get any more fractures m the iron. I think the Commission by the by would like to see more of these fractures,— the fulcrum pins broken from the reversing gear for example. ,8560. Mr. Fehon.] I think you saw the axles. 8561. Professor Warren.] Are there any other parts ? 8562. Mr. Soyle.] There are the draw-gear, the fulcrum pins. •8563. Mr. Fehon.] The draw-gear was acknowledged to be a mistake and was renewed at the expense of the Baldwin Co. 8564. Mr. Hoyle.] There is the brake gear also. 8565. Professor Warren^ Where did that go to, Mr. Hoyle ? 8566. Mr. Fehon.] Well, it might be on the scrap heap ; these things are not kept for inspection. 8567. Mr. Hoyle.] I think the Commission should see the wheels of the engine 457 about which so much has been said. 8568. Mr. Fehon.] Would you not like to see the one referred to in your speech, Mr. Hoyle? The one with the fourteen or fifteen broken spokes ? 8569. Mr. Hoyle.] Don't you think you had better give my speech a rest. 8570. Professor Warren (to Witness).] You have seen these tests of the bogie axles, and I presume you have made experiments with the drop test yourself ? No, I have not. 8571. Well, you saw the results ? No ; I think I have only heard of them ; I do not think I have seen the paper containing them ; I have heard about them, but I cannot give the exact results. 8572. I was going to ask you about the quality of the iron, but you can only judge by the fracture ? Yes. 8573. Well, what do you think of the quality of the iron ? I think it is inferior iron. 8574. "Undoubtedly bad ? Yes. 8575. You were speaking about the permanent way ? Yes. 8576. Do you think an 80-lb. rail would be better if it had angle fish-plates, such as they have on the railways in America ? That is a matter of opinion, even in America, and there may be some reason against the adoption of the angle fish-plate on these railways. 8577. Mr. Fehon.] There are some of these fish-plates in use upon our lines. I saw some myself on the suburban line. 8578. Professor Warren.] But it is not a standard here ? No ; the standard is the straight fish-plate, I believe. 8579. What is your opinion; — which is the best? Personally I prefer Fisher's joint underneath the rail to any fish-plate. 8580. Is that because it is stronger and stiffer ? It is more logical in construction and likely to keep up better ; but it is entirely unknown here. 8581. But the angle fish-plate would be stronger and stiffer than the ordinary one, would it not ? Tea, but possibly there are difficulties in the way of its use here. There are a great many broken fish-plates even when the angle fish-plate is used. 8582. You know about the number of rails that have been broken on the lines over which the Baldwin engines run ; — could you tell me how many have been actually broken for a certain time on the lino between Bathurst and Penrith ; — you keep records, Mr. Fehon, do you not? 8583. Mr. Fehon.] Yes. 8584. Will you supply the Commission with the number of rails that have been broken durino; the time that the Baldwin engines have been running, and also with the number in an equal time before they have been running, between Penrith and Bathurst. 8585. Mr. Fehon.] We have relaid 200 miles with new rails, so that probably the breakage would not be BO numerous. 8586. Professor Warren.] Well, that would be so much in favour of the Baldwin engines. 8587. Mr. Fehon.] Yes, the breakages would be greater with the old iron than with the present steel rails. 8588. Yes ? Our experience is that there has been no greater proportion of rails broken with these engines. 8589. Well, the Commission would like to have that information, in order to support the evidence with regard to the weight of the rails ? Yes. 8590. Mr. Brown.] You were largely concerned, Mr. Neale, in amending the specifications that were sent for the Baldwin engines ? Yes. 8591. Are you aware of the contents of a letter of the 10th October ? Will you look at that letter ? Yes, I see that letter. 8592. When were you first informed of the contents of this letter of the 10th October, 1890, and also the contents of the letter of the 15th December, 1890? I believe I was informed as soon as they were received, but I cannot exactly remember. 8593. Does your memory serve you as to the intimation received by the Commissioners that the company would not guarantee the speed or efSiciency of the engines if the suggested alterations in the design of the engines were carried out ? Yes. 8594. Did it strike you at that particular time, on receipt of the letter of the 15th December, 1890, whether it would have been advisable for you to report, with a view to receiving a guarantee of the speed and efficiency of the engine, either when these alterations should be carried out, or if you could not get a guarantee with those alterations, then that the alterations should be done away with? No; I thought our alterations were necessary, and it did not at all alarm me that the Baldwin Engine Company could not guarantee the speed, because I thought we had put the speed very high ; I had that opinion myself, and I think the Commissioners thought so also. 8595. Then you thought it was better to accept the engines as modified, rather than obtain a guarantee :^rom the company? Yes ; and because I knew that we did not want as much from the engines as the Baltimore BALDWrN LOCOMOTIVES INQriET COMSIISSTOIf— MUflTTES OF ETIDETTCU. 281' Baltimore and Ohio engine could do, and also, havin;? regard to our having a copper fire-box aud brass Mr.D.H. tubes, I knew that the engines would steam a little better, and beyond all that I knew that our engines in Nealo. thischtnate would do a certain amount of work, with a less amount of weight on the driving-wheels than ' — -^ — ^ , they would do in any country that I am acquainted with. I should have no hesitation in putting 43* tons ^^ ^^^7' 1892. on our driving wheels where^the Baltimore and Ohio Companv would think it necessary to have 46| tons, so I was satistiedthat we had sufficient power, and consequently what was said did not alarm me. 859G. And it you had to order engines to-morrow, would you add these engines which are stock of your own type to vour plant as against guaranteed engines from the Baldwin Engine Company? Tes; I think I would. I do not see anything the matter with these engines. 8597. And do you, representing the Eailway Department of this Colony, think that you could afEord to disregard the advice of this large company, with its large responsibility, when they gave a guatantee for an engine then running on the Baltimore and Ohio line as against one which the Commissioners had altered to their own design, and tor which the Baldwin Company would give no guarantee ;— if you had an oppor- tumty of repeating the order, would you carry out the same tactics ? I would certainly, because I think the engines have given perfect satisfaction. 8598. Then would you accept an engine not guaranteed from the Baldwin Company, although they being very responsible people, were prepared to guarantee another kind of engine, which they regarded as suit- able for our lines? Tes ; and I think we are right in doing so. If we had accepted these engines as they were we would have taken, for example, steel fire-boxes, and when we found that these boxes wore away rapidly, if we expostulated with the Baldwin Company they would say, " you have lime-water in your Colony, and you knew it when you purchased these engines, consequently you must renew these boxes at your own expense." 8599. And altogether you are satisfied ? Tes. 8600. There was no inspection of these engines, and you say it was contrary to the practice in America to make any inspection ? It is contrary to the usual practice" 8601. But you see it is the practice in England to have an inspection? "We had an inspection when the locomotives arrived here. 8602. Mr. Brown.] "When the engines canle here they had spare axles and wheels. The expenditure for a bogie axle represents about £7, and for a driving axle about £25. That we have in evidence. It is also in evidence that the Baldwin Company sent us engines, the axles of which had to be fitted by boring out the axle-boxes from 5 to 6 inches. Now, bearing in mind that these engines came to the colony without having been inspected, contrary to the practice prevailing in England, and also bearing in mind the fact that we had engines of a similar kind here whose bogie axles had been altered, do you not think that before these engines were put on the road' some precaution should have been taken in order to • secure the public safety. "What we find is that the public- transfers the responsibility to the Eailway Commissioners, and the Railway Commissioners transfer that responsibility to the Baldwin Company, and the Baldwin Company in turn transfers it to a certain firm of waggon-makers, and we do not know how many others may be behind that last firm. Taking that into consideration, do you not think that it would have been well to test these axles by the drop test hydraulic press before they were allowed to- run upon our lines ? No, I never heard of it being done on any railway. 8603. Supposing the Commissioners had destroyed a number of axles, representing £i00 expenditure, for testing purposes, would you not consider that to be a judicious outlay. The tests were made after the mischief was done — after the axles had actually failed, and the result of those tests was to satisfy the Commissioners that the axles were made of inferior material. "Well, now, looking at the responsibility of the Commissioners it would have been possible to make such a test before the engines were put in use. Do you think would it have been of any value to have made such a test ? In the first place I never heard of such a thing having been done, and I do not think that anybody can be blamed because it has not been done, and in the second place I doubt if such a test would be of value, as I am not sure in my own mind that these axles were defective when leaving the Baldwin "Works, or whether they were made defective since they have been here by running hot. 8604. Mr. JSrown.] But it is a fact tbat these tests have been made since, I want to know from you if it was not necessary for the railway authorities to make such a test before running these engines, or whether you think it would have been judicious for them to h^ve done so. The railway Commissioners representing the Colony sent an order to the Baldwin Company, and they send it to some waggon-maker, and these axles come out to us without having been inspected ; now remembering that the axles are a very material part of the engine, do you not think it would have been advisable for the Commissioners to have made some sort of experiment to test their quality before permitting the engines to run upon our road ? It is not quite correct to say that they were not inspected, they were inspected — that is to say they passed through the usual inspection by the foremen of the workshops. 8605. Mr. Brown.'] But the shop inspection is not the same inspection that is made in England ? It is really more efficient. The person appointed to act as inspector in England often knows very little about the work that is going on, is frequently a young man just out of his time, who is sent to gain experieiice in this way. An inspection by the foreman in the shop where each foreman is held responsible for work done under him is in ray opinion far more efficient than the inspection made in England. In a large shop where much work is going on at the same time in connection with the same contract it is impossible for anv inspector to exercise a thorough supervision over the whole ; he cannot be everyvvhere at' once. 3606. 'Professor Warren.] Is what you have said your opinion with regard to Sir John Eowler's inspec- tors, for if it is so it seems to be a reflection upon Sir John Eowler ? I do not know any of Sir John Fowler's inspectors, but I have been an inspector myself. 8607. But what you say is a reflection upon Sir John Eowler ? I do not know anything with regard to Sir John Fowler's inspectors beyond this that I once met a man who was inspecting for him ; he was older than myself, and no doubt he was a very efficient man. 3608. Professor Warren.] Was not Mr. Thow an inspector under Sir John Eowler ? I believe so. 8609. "Would he not have selected pieces from the axles in order to have them tested in the testing machine ? I do not think so at the time he was inspector. 8610. Tou mean to say that Sir John Eowler does not do so ? I cannot say what he does or does not do ; I can only say what has been done in connection with the railway compaiiies I have had to do with. 8611. It is well known that Sir John Fowler does select pieces ; the inspection he makes is most thorough ? I think you will find that his tests may be taade with regard to steel axles but not with iron. G-2N 8612. ■^°^ BALBWDf LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSIOlf — MINUTES OF EVTDBNCE. N 1 ^' ^^^^- -^'■- ^fown.] But if sucli a test as I have alluded to and such tests as were made after the accident ^^^^^^^^^" happened had been made prior to the accident, would not the defects in the bogie axle have been 31 May 1892 '^i^^overed ? Probably they would. ^' '8613. Professor Warren.'] Would there be the slightest doubt about it ? I think there is a doubt about it. • 8614. Mr. Brown.'] It strikes me that this particular phase. of it is incontrovertible. I want to know if some such test should not reasonably have been made ? I do not think you could reasonably expect anyone to do it ; in all my experience I never knew anyone to do it. 8615. Professor 'Warren (jilacing a table of the tensile test before the witness"). 8616. Witness.] Prom what part of the axle were the pieces of iron subjected to these tests taken ? 8617. Professor Warren.] They were taken from the journal and the centre of the axle. There were a great number of pieces tested — the wheel-seat, the centre of the axle, and the centre of the journal principally. 8618. Witness.] The limit of elasticity seems to be fairly high in most of these eases. 8619. "Would you pass such material for axles Y Not some of it. I may state that I have formed a theory about the cause of this trouble, it is only a theory, however, and I have not had time to test it. These results appear to me to support my theory. ' 8620. What results ? I see the, contraction of area is 19i, and the elongation 14 in one case, in another it is 15 and 13 ; the limit of the elasticity is over 11 tons per square inch. I do not call that such bad iron ; at all events I do not think it bad enough to account for the fracture. 8621. Is the irregularity accounted for by theory ? Tes. 8622. Would you take that iron for any purpose whatever, even the commonest bridge work, when it is so irregular as that ? 'No, it is too irregular ; but the question in my mind is whether that irregularity existed at the time the iron left the makers' works, or whether it was produced here by the journal running hot. 8623. President.] You think that the constitution of the iron was changed in the meantime ? Tes, I do. 8624. What temperature would be necessary to alter the constitution of the material ? The whole thing is very novel . There are a great many mysterious cases in which trouble has occurred lately of steel forgings and flanged plates failing after the steel had been tested and found right. It is only when they have been traced to their origin that they are capable of remedy. In some cases it has been found that some phosphor bronze has been used in the same furnace as that in which the material was made, and has impregnated it. If these bearings were made of phosphor bronze, then when they ran hot the phosphorus would be possibly absorbed by the journal, and would deteriorate the quality of the material. It wiU be noticed in these tests that pieces possibly taken from the centre were not deteriorated to the same degree as pieces taken from the journal. I merely put this forward as a theory. 8625. Professor Warren.] If your theory is correct, it would have made the iron cold short on the surface, though it would have remained sound in the centre ? Tes. 8626. Then, if a piece were cut out in the centre, it would be good according to your theory ? Tes ; but it is impossible to say how far the phosphorus may have penetrated. 8627. Well, you are the first who has said anything in favour of the axle ? I say it is not such iron as I would use in an axle, but a part of it is not so bad as to explain the breakage of the axle. 8628. Is it not usual to specify the ductility tensile strength of the material in your specification ? I have not been accustomed to do so ; it is not usual in iron axles. 8629. Professor Warren.] I can show you a specification of tests of iron axles ? Witness : Ductility tests ? 8630. Tes? Then it must be recently. 8631. These tests were so conclusive that it surprises me that anything has been said In favour of the material ? 8632. Have you any guarantee that the driving axles are not of bad material ? So far they run very freely. The driving axles are not made by the same firm as the bogie. 8633. But you have not any proof of the soundness of the material; you have not made any test up to the present time, and yet it would only cost about £24 to make it ? Tou would have no guarantee that the whole were sound if you did test one of them. In my last examination I referred to a case where the axles of certain engines, after running very satisfactorily for some three years, commenced every one of them to break, though the axles were the largest then used in England. 8634. Were they iron ? No ; steel, made by a first-class firm. I found, on making inquiries, that another railway had similar trouble ; the cause was unsuspected by anyone, and could not be reasonably anticipated. 8635. Is not what you were saying just now about steel due to^ the fact that steel must be homogeneous if it is any good at all ? Tes, certainly. 8636. The want of homogeneity in steel would cause fracture ? Tes. 8637. Then you believe that the present driving axles are all right ? Tes, I do. 8638. And the reason for that is that they have not given any trouble during the nine months they have been running ? No ; my reason for that is a great deal beyond the mere fact that they have been running for nine months without giving trouble. They are procured from as first-rate a firm of manufacturers as there is in the world. 8639. Tes, but we have had experience of that firm in the bogie axles ? Tes, but everybody is apt to make mistakes sometimes ; and what I mean to say is, that if you go to a first-rate firm, whilst they make a mistake once in a thousand times the probability is that nine hundred and ninety-nine times they will supply first-rate material. 8640. Mr. Prown.] Did we take all the precautions that we could have taken here with the bogie axles after their arrival in the Colony ? Tes. 8641. Professor Warren.] But if the bogie axles could have been tested after they had arrived in the Colony how can you say that would not be a guarantee as to their quality ? I do not know that I did say that. . 8642. Mr. Brown.] There is not the slightest doubt about what the result would have been if the bogie axles had been tested ; it has been admitted by the Commissioners that they were bad material, there can be no further question about it ? Tou may have a number of tests and still you may have trouble ; for instance, there have been nine broken shatts in the steam-ships that have come to this port, from one builder alone, and yet that builder is one of the best builders in G-reat Britain, and has given special ' attention BALBWra LOCOMOTITES DfQUIET COMMISSION— MINUTES OF ^ETIBENCE: 283 attention to testing steel. In this instance, no doubt the machinery was subiected to all the tesT;s that' Mr. were considered necessary, and yet the breakages have been so striking that a special report has been »• H. Neale. sent to the Board of Trade about them. & i r ^ ^ 8643. Professor Warren:] But supposing that the tests had been made, and the results had been pretty ^^ ^*y> ^892, much as represented m this list, would you have allowed the axles to run ? No ; I should not. 8644. Mr Royle:\ I would like to ask Mr. Neale whether this is a correct copy of the letter that he addressed to the Commissioners in respect to the Baldwin engines, Tou have seen this letter, Mr. Neale, IS it a copy of the one to which I refer ? Yes ; I believe it is 8645. I noticed in your evidence on Friday last that you used these words, "If you take the 'Scotch "Yankee, which I beheve is a good engine, you will find that they have only two bogie wheels to guide " them round curves, and that the rigid wheel-base will make it more difficult for them to take curves. It " '" ^11 •; 'n Z^T^ J u i"^-,"^ wheel-base on the lO-wheel engines. If the road is going to be damaged " at aii It will be damaged by the leading driving-wheel, and, secondly, we know that the ' Scotch Yankee ' is "heavier on the leading driving-wheel than the Baldwin 10-wheeled engine, therefore they are more likely " tn do damaffe to the nermanfiTi-H-wnv t^lian +1iq in ,„v,,^„l„J „„~,- j m j.i_; i u . . _.-j.i_ uvg.v. „^^^^ „„ ^^^^^^ „xi ii^otoau. uj. i;wu. ror tnese reasons i consiaer tnat tne Jiaidwm engines are 'easier on the curves than the ' Scotch Yankees.' The rigid wheel-base of the Baldwin engine is only " 12 ft. 6 in., and that of the ' Scotch Yankees ' is 15 ft. On the Monmouthshire, where they have 5-chaiii « curves— much shorter curve than any we have here— we could not use an engine with more than 13 ft. "ngid wheel-base, and every additional inch in the length of wheel-base used tells on sharp curves. For " those two reasons I calculate that the Baldwin engines are much easier than the ' Scotch Yankees.' Then " these engines are very well equalised as far as the weight is concerned. I mean by that that the weight " on the wheel-base is very well distributed among the various wheels. Often sitting on an ordinary chair " we find that it is only resting on three legs, and that the fourth leg, instead of being on the ground, is in " the air. The weight on the wheels of an English engine is not, as a rule, equalised, and they may con^ " sequently be compared to four-legged chairs. " 84ul. Professor Warren.'] Does that apply to the newly imported engine ? It does to a certain " extent, but I am speaking of English engines generally, which are not so well equalised as American "engines. If you take a three-legged stool you may pitch it down anywhere, and it will always take a " bearing on three points, however uneven the surface, and that is the principle on which the American " engines are built. The wheels of these engines are so equalised that the engine is, in this respect, like a " three-legged stool." ' 8646-7. Now you say in you evidence on Friday ? There are some mistakes in that ; you have not read it quite as I gave it. 8648. I read it just as it has been given to me by the officers of the Commission; — will you point out where the mistakes to which you allude are ? What I said was that we used a 13-ft. wheel-base on the Monmouthshire railway, and you said that I said a 15-ft. wheel-base. 8649. "Well, I wiU not deal with the Monmouthshire railways at all ; — can you say why the " Scotch Yankee" does more harm to the permanent-way than the Baldwin engine ; — is because it has a longer rigid wheel- base ; and you also say that that it is a 2-wheeled instead of a 4-wheeled bogie ; — -will you tell me why you, believing that it is better to have a 4-wheeled than a 2-wheeled, recommended the Com- missioners to take a 2-wheeled bogie instead of a 4-wheeled bogie ; judging by the correspondence, you evidently recommended the Commissioners to get a 2-wheeled bogie-engine from the Baldwn Company, and now you say that a 4-wheeled bogie is better ? "Well, you yourself, in Parliament, stated that I "had gone one better," and the fact that I recommended a 10-wheeled engine shows that I did go one better. 8650. The fact that I did make a certain speech in the House has nothing to do with it ; I am asking you questions in the course of your examination, and it is quite unnecessary to refer to anything that I may nave said in the House ; — I ask you the questions just as one gentleman may ask questions of another ? I do not see that you can object to my reference to your speech in Parliament — you quote from my letter to the Commissioners, and I quote from your speech in the House. 8650^. Here is your evidence that you gave before the Commission on Friday last. You do not deny it, and in it you say, " If you take the " Scotch Yankee," which I believe is a good engine, you will find that they have only two bogie wheels to guide them round curves," this implying that it is better for engines to iave four bogie wheels, and yet you recommend the Commissioners to purchase engines with two bogie wheels; — how was that? Well, I certainly may be permitted to improve upon a suggestion; the world improves, and I hope that I do. I have explained what are the advantages of the 10-wheeled engine ; I have said that it is heavier and more expensive than the Mogul ; but that, after taking the question very carefully into consideration, the Master Mechanics' Association (than which I should wish for no better authority) decided that the balance of advantages lay with the 10-wheel engine for purposes of passenger traffic. I am supported by that authority, and I do not know what more you want. 8651. Then again you say that the Baldwin engine has a 12-ft. 6-in. rigid wheel-base, and the " Scotch Yankee " has a 15-ft. rigid wheel-base ; — as a matter of fact, I find that the Baldwin Consolidation engine has a rigid wheel-base 14 ft. 8 in. in length ? I was talking about Baldwin passenger engines, and not Consolidation engines at all ; they are very different things. 8652. Yes, but the evidence speaks of Baldwin engines ;— does it not imply that you are speaking of Baldwin Consolidation engines only ? Yes ; I was certainly only alluding to the passenger engines at that particular time. 8653. And here again [showing the witness a diagram of a Consolidation engine] you say that this one has a pony truck, which you can condemn ? W' ell, the very name Consolidation engine is enough to indicate to anyone who knows about the subject that it has a pony truck. As a matter of fact, I vras only speaking about passenger traffic in this particular portion of my evidence, and drawing a distinction between a 10-wheeled engine and a Mogul, for the purpose of passenger traffic. 8654. You were simply speaking about Baldwin engines, and we must take the lot ? "When I referred to the 4-wheeled bogie, it must be taken for granted that I am referring to an engine with a 4-wheeled bogie, and the only engines under discussion that have 4-wheeled bogies are 10-wheeled engines. The very name of the Consolidation engine shows that they have only pony trucks. 8655. 284i Baldwin locoiiOTivEs inquiky commission — minutss op eyibence. TT*^ 8655. But you said here that the rigid wheel-base of 15 feet in length on the " Scotch Yankees," is injurious l^l^^ to our curves. The Consolidation engine has a rigid wheel-base of 14 ft. 3 in. Now, if _ a rigid 3rM^!/l892 ^^^^^ ^^^ °^ 15 f^®* ^^ injurious to the curves, is not a rigid wheel-base of 14 ft.-3 in. also injurious ? ^' ■ The speed has a good deal to do with that, and you must remember that the Consohdation engines are only employed in running passenger trains up the mountains, where the speed is necessarily slow. 8656: But there are many places where the engine can travel at a high rate of speed round the curves on the mountains. For instance, at Tarana, where the accident occurred, you iittain a high rate of speed ? I beg your pardon ; I know very few places on which it is more difficult to obtain a high rate of speed than on the road between Penrith and Bathurst. 8657. But I say that from Wallerawang to Bathurst, where the accident occurred, you were going down hill, and if a high rate of speed is possible upon any curves, it is possible there ? When you are going down from Katoomba to Emu Plains you are going down hill continually, but you would not for a moment say that it was possible to attain a high rate of speed there. It certainly does not follow that because you are going down hill that you can attain a high rate of speed. 8658. What I want to know is this : If a 15-ft. wheel-base is injurious to the curves, is not the 14 ft. 3 in. also injurious to the curves ? No, it is not, for the simple reason that there are thousands of these engines working with' most satisfactory results. The Master Mechanics' Association highly approves of them, and in further evidence of the advantage of using them I may say that they have saved several millions of pounds sterling, annually to the American people. 8659. There was nothing about speed given in the evidence by Mr. Neale on Priday, you did not qualify your statement in any way, what you did say was that engines with a 15-ft. wheel-base were injurious to the curves, and now I ask you why a wheel-base of 14 ft. 3 in. will not be injurious to the curves also? My answer to that is that engines with a rigid wheel-base of 14 ft. 3 in., if run at a limited speed, are not injurious, and we know, as a matter of fact, that these engines are run at a limited speed. 8659^. Then would the " Scotch Yankees" be injurious to the curves when run to moderate speed ? "Well, apt if run at a moderate speed, though, as they are 15 feet the wheel-base, they will be more injurious than the Baldwin engines, as every additional foot tells; but I was not speaking of goods engines at all — I was speaking of passenger engines. 8660. Mr. FeJion.'] This is a very unfair comparison to make. Mr. Hoyle is pitting the rigid wheel-base of a goods engine against the rigid wheel-base of a passenger engine. 8661. President.'] What Mr. Neale says is that although my previous evidence bears the construction that Mr. Hoyle put upon it, as a matter of fact, I did not mean that it should have that construction. I was comparing a Baldwin passenger engine with Mogul engines, and not referring to goods engines at all. 8662. Mr. FeTion.'] Yes, but the engine which Mr. Hoyle was referring to is an engine that runs at a low rate of speed, whilst the " Scotch Yankee" is a passenger engine, and an engine that runs at a high rate of speed. 8663. President.'] We shall see that when we come to read through the evidence. There is no need for any explanation about it at all. 8664. Mr. Hoyle^ With regard to these axles, I should like to know whether Mr. Neale has any guarantee that the axles supplied by the Bald\\an Company were not a lot that they had on hand, and were not specially made for these engines at all. 8665. Mr. Brown.] How can he tell whether they were or were not made specially for these engines? %QQG. President.] Of course he has no guarantee. That is quite plain. We can see that. The evidence upon that point was given by Mr. Eddy, or Mr. Rhodes, of the Baldwin Company, who said that the axles were not made by them, but were got by them from a firm upon whom they placed entire reliance. They could not tell you more than that. That is all they know themselves. 8667. Mr. Hoyle (to Witness).] Do you consider that iron is as good as steel for axles ? It is a matter of opinion. Steel is, the cheapest, and therefore I generally prefer to use it for that reason. S668. Can you tell us what was the thickness of the tube-plates of the Baldwin engines ? Well, I believe that in my evidence in chief I got a little confused about that. I thought that you referred -to the fire- box tube-plates, but, upon reading it over, I am of opinion that you were really referring to the smoke-box tube-plates. 8669. Yes ; the smoke-box tube-plates ? They are half-inch plates. 8670. Do not most of the English railway companies build their own engines ? No. 8671. Well, now, in England, when an engine is being built, is it a fact that the English companies do not provide or do not insist upon some rigid inspection when the engine is being constructed ? They send an inspector down to either visit the works every day or so many days every week, and he walks through the shop and endeavours to see that everything is progressing satisfactoBily. He sees the boilers tested, and tries the truth of a good many measurements, and so on. 8672. You are referring now to an inspection undertaken by a person provided by the railway company themselves ? By the railway compapy, yes. 8673. But I understood you to say before that it was only boys or young men just out of their time who were sent to the locomotive works for that purpose ? Yes. 8674. You said that you were an inspector on the English railways ? Yes. 8675. Was that just when you were out of your time ? Very shortly afterwards. 8676. Well, do you mean to tell me that when you were out of your time you really did not know and were not capable of properly inspecting all the parts of an engine ? It is not a question of whether you are competent to examine all the parts of an engine ; it is a question whether you can watch work that is going on in a large number of shops, and can be sure that that work is being done honestly. It is a question of whether you can watch a couple of thousand men all on your work at the same time. You go into the boiler shop, and there may be twelve of your boilers under construction at once. At the same time there may be a large number of wheels being welded in the wheel shop. You cannot possibly see that the work that is put into your boilers is all honest work, or that your wheels are properly welded. You can only make the best inspection possible under the circumstances. 8677. But is that not better than having nobody there at all ? It is a matter of custom, and in America it is a custom for the locomotive makers to take the whole responsibility upon their own shoulders. 8678. Mr. Brown.] Yet, if you were going to get any more engines from the Baldwin Company, that custom would hardlv obtain, I imagine ? That is not for me to sav.' , 8679. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIllX UOJiHISSION— IIMUTES OF EVIDENCE). 285 8G79. Mr. Hoyle.] You say that there are no flaws in the wheels, but that the indications we saw only Mr. appeared to be flaws, that is to say that they are only flukes in the iron, raised by the application of the ^- ■^- ■'^®*^®' hydraulic press ? Tes. ii'iT'^TRqa 8680. Do you not know, because I do as a mechanic, that one of the first things that a mechanic could ^»^1>^°^^' be dismissed for would be for laying down a piece of work with galls in it. If I were foreman of a blacksmith's shop, and a man under me was laying down work with galls in it, I should dismiss him at once? Tes; but you have not seen work done" by a hydraulic press. I have. 8681. And you think that those wheels are perfectly safe ? I am sure that they are perfectly safe. 8682. "Well, I am not ? That may be ; but I doubt if you have ever seen a locomotive wheel made at all anywhere. 8683. "Well, that is not to the point ;— relative to Poor's Manual, which you have quoted as your authority for the weight of these engines on the road, and for the weights of the rails ? 1 do not think I quoted Poor's Mamiel with regard to the weights of the engines. 8684. No, I recollect you did not ; but you did with regard to the weights of the rails? Tes. 8685. Well, what date was the edition from which you quoted? 1891, 1 think it is. It was from the ■ last edition of Poor's Manuel procurable ; but I cannot remember whether it was 1891 or 1892. 8686. Would the information in that not be compiled for the year 1889 ; it would not give data for the particular year in which it was published, would it ? Well, you can see what the date of -the reports in it are by looking at it. 8687. But do you not think that the reports from the Engineering Neivs and the Railroad, Gazette are of just as much value as the reports in Poor's Manual ? Tes. 8688. -Tou have spoken about the weight of the rails in America. Tou told us that you have written some articles on the question. Do you know anything about the spacing of the sleepers in America ? Yes ; they are placed at distances varying from what would be represented by 2,000 sleepers to the mile to 2,800 to the mile. 8689. And that would be about 2 feet apart ? Tes. 8690. Do you consider that a road with the sleepers placed 2 feet apart is any stronger than a road with the sleepers placed 3 feet apart ? It all depends upon the sleepers, the ballasting, the drainage, the fastenings, and the tamping. 8691. Would a road in the United States with sleepers placed 2 feet apart be any stronger than a double- headed rail with 1\-va.. chairs spaced 3 feet apart ? What is a 24-in. chair ? 8692. Our chairs are only 2^ in. wide ? Do you mean chairs weighing 25 lb. ? 8693. I cannot tell you exactly what their weight is, but I suppose it would be about that, and what I want to know is whether you consider that a road such as they have in the United States, with sleepers placed 2 feet apart, would be any stronger than our double-headed rail with 24-in. chairs, and the sleepers placed 3 feet apart ? I consider that our road would be the stronger of the two. 8694. That is inasmuch as our sleepers are of ironbark, I suppose ? Tes, with our ironbark sleepers, our stone ballast, our very good drainage, our roads would be, in my opinion, better than the roads in America, if even they were paved with sleepers. 8695. That is not quite what I mean. I am referring particularly to the bearing surface of the rails. In America you have sleepers from 7 to 12 inches wide ? I never heard of sleepers 12 inches wide. 8696. I think I can produce evidence to the effect that sleepers are used in America 12 inches wide ? 8697. President-I Let me tell you, Mr. Hoyle, that now is the time for you, if you have anything to bring forward in the nature of rebutting evidence to do so. Tou can do so in the course of cross- examination. If you have some book which shows that the sleepers in America are 12 inches wide, or that there are sleepers used in parts of America 12 inches wide, your proper course is to ask Mr. Neale if he knows that it is so. Ask him whether he knows that in such and such a book it is stated that in America there are sleepers 12 inches in breadth. 8698. Mr. Moyle.l Well, I take this from the JSncyclopcedia Britannioa, page 244, vol. 20 ; the article is contributed by four eminent engineers — D. Kiunear Clarke, C.E. ; Professor A. T. Hadley ; A. M. Wellington, C.E. ; and S. Wright Dunning. In that article these engineers say, " The usual dimensions are 6 (sometimes 7) inches thick, 8 (sometimes 8^ or 9) feet long, and 8 to 10 or even 12 inches face. The usual rule is to place them 2 feet or less apart, and 2,640 to 2,700 to the mile. The large bearing surface thus afforded has especially favoured the use of the- flat-based or Vignoles rails, and it is in exclusive use throughout North and, for the most part, South America." These eminent men further , state, on page 253, that." the close propinquity of the sleepers gives much greater stiffness to the rails than comparative weights above would indicate, a 60-lb. rail beiiig fully equivalent in stiffness and strength to an 80-lb rail, supported on chairs 3 feet between centres " ? Well, that only confirms what I say. I told you that 12 inches is a most unusual width for a sleeper ; the general width is from 7 to 8 inches. 8699. Well, I will take sleepers 8 inches wide. Do not you consider that road with 8 inch sleepers 2 feet apart would be stronger than our own road with the sleepers placed 3 feet apart and 2i bearing surface provided by the chairs ? Prom a theoretical point of view it might be stronger, but not necessarily from a practical point of view. What you have to take into consideration are the fastenings. If you had 150-lb. rails laid upon sleepers ever so broad, and they were not fastened at all, you dare not run over them, and if your fastenings, by reason of the softness of the wood or anything else, are not secured, then you have not a safe road. An engine strikes the rails as it is riinning, oscillating from side to side, and gradually shifts it further and further outward's, and in time if the line is not attended to, she would slip in between them. There you have an instance in which an engine comes to grief and yet not a rail has been broken. The fastenings alone are gone, . . 8700. President.] Tes, but what I understand Mr. Hoyle to mean is this : he says, supposing a rail is resting on a sleeper 8 inches wide and 2 feet apart, is that not better than a rail resting on a little chair in the middle of the sleeper, some 7 inches wide and 3 feet apart from the next chair in the rail ? 8701. Witness.'] No, I do not think it is, and for this reason : that if the rails were simply strained by a dead load of (sav) 30 or 40 or 50 tons, and placed on chairs 3 feet apart, you would probably^find that such a load would bend them a great deal more than if vou had a flat-footed rail with sleepers 2 reet apart, but that is not what you have got to calculate for in railway work. Tou have to allow for a running load not for a dead load. When you come to investigate an American hne you find, probably, that not one of the 286 BAIiDWIlT lOCOMOTITES INQTJIBT COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. -^ ^^ the fastenings is perfectly secure ; you find that you can draw the spikes ; the spike-heads are cut by the D. H. Neale. ^g^jj^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^-^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ gjj j tjiat the sleepers are perfectly tight, and that ai'^'^'^isqa' *^® fastenings are perfectly tight. That is what makes the difference. It is not the fact that the sleepers *^' ■ are placed so closely together. The reason they are so closely spaced in America is that they are none of them perfect. If they had such sleepers as we have they would put them further apart, but they know that they are putting down sleepers that are going to decay — sleepers out of which the fastenings are going to work loose', and therefore they put them closer together. 8702. Mr. Soyle.'] Ton assume that our fastenings are tight, and I cannot accept the statement. 8703. Witness.] Well, I am telling you from my own knowledge. The great complaint among permanent way men in America is that the rails are incessantly cutting into the sleepers, and that the spikes are always working out. 8704. Fresident.'] If they had as good wood in America as we have — if they had our ironbark, and the permanent way was as well ballasted, then, of course, sleepers placed 2 feet apart would be better than sleepers placed the distance that we place them apart. Perhaps they would be unnecessarily strong ? They would to a certain extent be better, but the question would then arise whether it would be at all necessary to place them so close, and whether it would not be better to spend the money in some other direction. 8705. Mr. Srovm.] In America I have seen sleepers placed almost on the virgin soil. The sleeper has hardly any ballast. 8706. Mr. iSoyle.'] The article from which I have already quoted in the Encyclopcddia Britannica states further : — " The close propinquity of the sleepers gives much greater stiffness to the rail when comparative weights above will indicate a 60-lb. rail being fully equivalent in stifiness and strength to an 80-lb. rail supported on chairs 3 feet between the centres." Would that be correct? I do not think that they say so at the present time. At the date that that was written Mr. Wellington had never been in England. I know these gentlemen well. 8707. President.'] What heading in the Encyclopmdia Britannica is that article under ? I have quoted from pages 244 and 253, vol. 20, 1886. 8708. Mr. Hoyle.] I have no further questions to ask. 8709. Mr. Brown.] Have you any more witnesses, Mr. Fehon ? 8710. Mr. Fehon.] I have no more witnesses. 8711. President.] Do you mean that you have no more witnesses to-day, or no more witnesses at all. Of course you are going to call Mr. Eddy ? 8712. Mr. Fehon.] Well, Mr. Eddy is prepared to come, but we have no particular wish to call him unless the Commission or Mr. Hoyle desire that he should come. 8713. President.] Oh, Mr. Eddy must come. We understand that he is to come for the purpose of being cross-examined upon the statement that he made. 8714. Mr. Hoyle.] I made a request on Eriday last that I should be permitted to make a statement in I reply to the statement made by the Chief Commissioner. I would propose to read that statement exactly as the Chief Commissioner's was written, and either to read it or put it in as evidence in reply. I have gone to a great deal of trouble to search for information as to what is going on in various parts of the world in regard to railway matters, and as the Press gave a full report of Mr. Eddy's statement, I only ask that I may be allowed to make this statement in reply. Tou will remember, Mr. President, that I asked you a question on Eriday, after Mr. Brown had left the meeting, and that you then said that I had better wait until to-day, and then ask it again in Mr. Brown's presence. 8715. Mr. Fehon.] I may say with regard to Mr. Eddy's statement that we look upon it as sitnply evidence. It did not travel outside the range of evidence, and if Mr. Hoyle has an opportunity of asking Mr. Eddy questions upon it, there is not the slightest objection to his doing so, and that, I think, should satisfy him, but Mr. Hoyle made his statement at the commencement of this inquiry, and if he is to make another at the termination of it, it will be necessary for the Eailway Commissioners also to make a further statement, and in that case they might feel inclined to travel a little outside the range of the evidence which is before us. 8716. Mr. Brown.] I am very sorry, Mr. Eehon, that you have such a poor opinion of evidence as to say that the Commissioner's statement did not travel outside the ordinary nature of evidence. 8717. Professor Warren (to Mr. Hoyle).] -Could not you give your statement in the form of evidence? , 8718. President.] That does not make it any better. I would like to hear what you have to say in answer to Mr. Eehon, Mr. Hoyle? 8719. Mr. Hoyle.] It must be remembered that in bringing these charges before the Commission in the first instance, I went into the box for the purpose of stating the charges themselves, and not so much for the purpose of giving evidence upon them. Of course, whether I have made out the charges or not is ■ not for me to say, but all the time this evidence has been going on the Commissioners have had at their command a number of very able gentlemen, who have been able to deal with it day after day. When called by me to give evidence, Mr. Eddy withheld a certain large amount of information that he subsequently gave, when giving evidence as a witness of the Railway Commissioners. Inasmuch, there- fore, as the Railway Commissioners have had this large staff at their back to render them assistance, as they were able to cable to various parts of the world for information, and make a most important statement at the conclusion of my case, whilst I have had to attend here day after day, and attend to my private business as well, I ask this opportunity of reply may be accorded to me. 87^0. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Eddy's statement was made, not at the conclusion of your case, but at the beginning of ours. 8721. Mr. Hoyle.] It was practically made at the conclusion of my case. Tou may see, Mr. President, that whilst I was conducting this case and attending to my ordinary business, it was a very difficult thing for me to work at any information, and many things came out in the evidence given by the witnesses of the Railway Commissioners that I could not possibly be aware of, but now that the case has taken the turn that it has, and the Chjef Commissioner having given the evidence that he has given in support of his case, I would ask to be allowed to make certain statements in evidence just as the Chief Commissioner has done. Considering the Chief Commissioner has had an opportunity of giving evidence twice, and I have only given evidence once, it seems to me that at present I am placed at a disadvantage. 8722. Mr. Fehon.] I would point out that it would be a most unfair thing for Mr. Hoyle to make a statement now. 8723. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIEX COMMISSION-MIHTTTES OF ETIDENCE. 287 Tk^St::vlZ!l^^.i^:KTl^- Vt ^'T^^^ ^^ application. Tou have obiected to it, and M. llli- ^'■' ^"1^1^ w*?^ Ji.'^f-SJy n'^^^* *° '"^^e ^ Statement. 31 May, 1892. t!LutlXlJofLTJoT:'}S '" ^'^^ . '' ^" ff^ ^^-i '=°-fi-'i hi--lf --ply to a statement of mSerrthane knew MmsT f^rJ J ^' '^■'^'''''' fi^*^ ^^'^^ ^^ ^°''^^ ^^^^ ^^ti'^elj aseVidence-l mean to Ms to fav thev wnnlH Sr '^^'^-^^-^'i^^ould certainly not allow any farther statement to be made. bitMr EddvSHsvervabt^ ^"'"^'^ '^^^ '^' Commissioners' case as ■ they . stand ftrtrLTuX'iJrert^^^^^ s^si;; otheTth^ran'dt lo^s^aurriS: trom Dooks and under these circumstances we thmk the fairest thins to do is this that Mr Hovle should etXt:teS^ti:;fc:xv^^^^ evidenceUs statement ma/be thrwe w^iJuA^tX^t'ol t^r^^^^^^^^^^ do^btfS^wS: hrVe laU XwV T f ^•'^^ ''^ ^"''^T*^^^' -' ^ --' academicalX^Sonfit s Very oSo« ^ wiietJier we shaU allow them to be incorporated in the proceedings. ^ 8726. ilz?'. J±oyLe.\ i am very much obliged " Sr"le mt-y^ understand that we shall have another opportunity of questioning anything that 8728. FroBident:\ I understand that if we take Mr. Hoyle's statement in as evidence Mr Hovle will be cross-examined upon it m the same way as Mr. Eddy is to be cross-examined on his statement.^ WEBNESBAT, 1 JUNE, 1892. \_The Oommission met at 2 o'clock in the Board-room, Gblonial Secretary's Office.-] fr£0m:— F. E. ROGERS, Esq., Q.C, President. Phoeessor WAEEEN, M.I.C.E. | A. BEOWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P. Mr. Cowdery, recalled, said : — 8729. President.-] 1 beHeve Mr. Cowdery you wish to make some explanation, or in some way to amend ^ r a the evidence you have given ? Shall I state what I wrote to you, Mr President p Mr. Cowdery. 8730. In your letter to me, Mr Cowdery, there were certain charges made against absent people, notably, i jj^^T^o I think, with regard to Mr Whitton-and of [course I could not, under tht circumstances, permit thJt ' letter to be read, and I think it would be better if in the evidence you are now about to give, you should rpfram from saying anything about persons who are absent from the proceedings of this .Commission I thought that instead of my reading your letter, you should make an explanation with regard to certain matters mentioned therein, and in doing so I trust you will refrain from saying anything that may in anv way reflect in any way upon the people who are not here, and who, therefore, have not an opportunitv of replying to your statements. ■' 8731. Witness.] I will endeavour to do so. Tou will, I hope, allow me to refer to that letter P 8732.. President.] Certainly. 8738. -pFitness.] In the letter addressed to the President, I said that my character as an engineer had suffered somewhat through the publication in the newspapers of certain mis-statements made by Mr Fehon and some of the witnesses. They were, I thought, misleading statements, which I intend to correct. I have gathered my information from reports published in the Sydney Morning Serald, 8734. Mr. Fehon.] To whom do you refer ? 8735. Witness.] In the first place I refer to the question you asked from Mr. "Wearing. 8736. Mr. Eehon.] I submit that that is not in order. 8737. President.-] Tour explanation, Mr. Cowdery, must not be relative to the evidence given by other witnesses, but simply to the evidence given by yourself. I can only allow any explanation you have to give to that extent. As I understand your letter, you made certain explanations with regard to the railway lines being out of gauge. If you wish to explain that matter, you are at liberty to do so. Tou may say when you left the service or whilst the lines were under you management they were of proper gauge, you may do that, but you must not comment on any question of Mr. Pehon's or any answer given by the witnesses to him. 8738. Witness.] Tes ; with reference to these gauges, it is well known that most of our lines are single lines, and it is quite patent to every body, I think, that it was not necessary in the case of single lines to alter the platforms in any shape or form. It would be a very simple matter to correct where these roads an inch or two outside or inside the gauge. 8739. President.-] Were all the buildings connected with the platforms ? 8740. Witness^ On the Murrurundi and Blayney lines it is a single line, and I believe no alteration was made. No alteration, I understand, was made there, but on the lUawarra railway, a portion of which is a double line, there are many stations which have been altered. If you will allow me to refer to the names of them, I will do so. 8741. President.] Tes, you may do so. 8742. Witness.] They were St. Peters, Eockdale, Hurstville, Apncliffe, Tempe, and Marrickville, all these platforms have been altered for the Baldwin engines to pass through. 8743. President.] Do you say they were altered for the Baldwin engines to pass through ? 8744. Witness.] Tes, they were built by Mr. Whitton, and I had nothing to do with them. I make this statement because the whole onus has been laid upon my shoulders for the expenditure in altering these platforms. I had no objection to the width of the platforms ; under Mr. Whitton the original standard gauge was Mr. Whitton's, and no other was used by me until the introduction of the first American engine, the Carlton platforms were built by me and have not been altered; the Erskineville platforms were also built, by me and they have also been slightly altered for the new engines. They were quite right for 288 BALDWIN lOCOMOTITES INQTJIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. Mr. Cowder;;. for the old class of engine, which has run through them without obstruction at the time of the infcroduc- T '"'tT' ^^°^ of these new engines. Nos. 5 and 6 platforms in the Eedfera station have been cut away from end 1 June, 1892. t^, ^^^ f^j, ^j^g^g ^^^ Baldwin engines. These platforms were built by Mr. Whittou. I had nothing at all to do with them. It is not Mr. "VVearing's reply that I so much object to as to the answer Mr. Foxlee has given to some questions ; but perhaps I cannot put the matter in that way. 8745. President.'] You can make your explanation without mentioning any person's name. If there is anything in the evidence that calls for remark from you in opposition to it you can make it. It does not matter who gave the evidence. Make your corrections independent of any one else's statement. If any- thing a witness has said tends to refresh your memory, well and good ; but you must not give what has been stated by any particular person in your evidence. 8745^. Witnesi.'] Mr. Foxlee says that many of these platforms have been altered from the original standard gauge. Upon that point I wish to state that the original standard gauge was Mr. "Whitton's, and no other was used by me until the introduction of the first American engine. 8746. Professor Warren.'] Ton refer to the old Baldwin engine ? Tes ; and for them we only altered the stations of the "Western line where they were supposed to run, and were in fact kept. on this line. The evidence says, " Is it not a fact that as far back as 1879 the engines could not pass the structures as they existed?" 8747. President.] Tou say in 1879 ? 8748. Witness.] Tes ; and it is said in the evidence to be a fact. This was before I had charge, but it is the first time I ever heard of it. 8749. Professor Warren.] Do you know when the new standard gauge was introduced ? 8750. Witness.] I could not tell you exactly. 8751. Professor Warren.] Mr. "Whitton I believe altered his gauge ? 8752. Witness.] Not in my time. I think it was after the introduction of these wider engines. I never heard of the alteration of the gauge; it was adopted by every one up to that time. I never dreamed of altering his gauge. 8753. Professor Warren.] I suppose we could get that date from Mr. Deane. 8754. President.] I believe he has gone to Melbourne. 8755. Witness.] It is also stated in the evidence that to enable these engines to run on the western line the structures were altered. Now as this line was single beyond Parramatta there could not have been any necessity to alter the platform, as it would have been easy to slew the road in or out an inch or so. Again in the evidence it is reported that the width over the cylinders of some of the engines then in the Colony was slightly in excess of the width over the cylinders of the Baldwins. If this statement is true, how does it happen that in first running the American engines we had either to alter platforms or slew the roads ; therefore if these engines were wider than the American engines the cylinders must have been placed at a difEerent level in order to clear the platform. Then again it has been stated that if the structures had been to Mr. Whitton's standard width it would not have been necessary to spend one penny in altering the platforms. Now as a matter of fact no other gauge than Mr. Whitton's was ever used to my knowledge either before or after I took charge, until the arrival of the Baldwin engines. Then I altered the gauge 2-ft. 9-in. from the top of the rail to the top of the coping of the platform, and 2-ft. 5-in. from the outside of the rail to the front edge of the platform. To prove what I say here, it is only necessary to send to Eedf ern and ask for the gauge used by me. 8756. Professor Warren^ That is practically 5 feet from the centre. 8757. Witness^ I never gauge from the centre. 8758. Professor WarrenJ\ We have had it that they were that width from the centre 8759. Witness.] Tes, I daresay it would be about that. 8760. Professor Warren.'] I quite agree with you as to the proper way of measuring the width. 8761. Witness.] I consider that Mr. Whitton's was a most suitable one for the then description of carriages and engines, and I believe that the present gauge has been made necessary by the introduction of the Baldwin engine and is dangerously far away for the carriages of the old stock. 8762. Professor Warren.] What was that gauge ? 8763. Witness.] I would not be sure whether he measured from the inside or the outside of the rail, but I believe that 2-ft. 4-in. is the gauge. 8764. President.] Tou say it always existed? 8765. Witness.'] Tes, twenty-five years ago I put up platforms for Mr. Whitton to that gauge. His gauge was 2-ft. 4-in. — ^whether from the outside or the inside of the rail I cannot say. But there are plenty of plans in the office which will show that. 8766. Professor Warren^ When you were Engineer for Existing Lines did you use any other gauge ? 8767. Witness.] The gauge was never altered until the first Baldwin engine arrived, and I do not mean that mearly by me, but by anyone. 8768. PresidentI] When did the first Baldwin engine come here ? 8769. Professor Warren.] About eight years ago. 8770. President.] That was before the present Commissioners took office. 8771. Professor Warren.] So that as time went on, and Mr. Whitton found the necessities of the rolling stock required it, he altered the gauge. 8772. Witness.] Tes. I altered it to 2 ft. 5 in., as Engineer for Existing Lines, to allow these new American engines to pass. 8773. President.] Had Mr. Whitton anything to do with the new engines ? 8774. Witness.] He was constructing the new lines, and he had information of the width, and, I suppose, he altered the platforms accordingly. I do not know what he did. 8775. President.] Tou say you altered the width to allow the old Baldwin engines to pass, 8776. Witness.] Tes. 8777. And about the same time Mr. Whitton altered his gauge ? I do not know that be did so, but, I think, he did, because he had information of the width of these engines. I have no doubt that he did alter it, but I cannot say positively. I was saying that Mr. Whitton's gauge was a most suitable one for the description of carriages of the old stock, and the present gauge which has been made necessary by the introduction of the Baldwin engines is dangerously far away from the carriages of the old stock for passengers— that is to say, the gauge is dangerous for working the old stock with the new engines. 8778. BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIttY UOMMISSIOX— MINVTES OJ? EVIDEXCE. 289 ^n?, President.'] I understand by that there is a great distance between the carriage and the platform? Mr. Cowdery. res, i think so. And even with the present carriages and the present engines I have heard complaints ^—^ ^ from many passengers that they are inconveniently far away from the platforms when passengers are 1 J""«. 1892. utepping in or out of the carriages. ^m Professor Warren:] What do you think, yourself? Tes, I think that is so, the width of the cylinders ot the engines is of no consequence in America where they do not use platforms as we do. I may mention that some years ago two carriages were brought to this Colony, one named the "Lady Parfces and tlje other the " Lady Eobertson." I saw them in the yard before they were placed on the line at all, and i thought that they were a great width, and so I put my rule across them, and ascertained that they were too wide tor our lines, consequently the two sides had to be reduced, for they could not pass each other on the curves without touching, I mean when one carriage was on one road and one ,m the other, ihere is one of the platforms now— and I suppose it has been passed by the present Commissioners— tor trams are running through it, where the gauge is 5 feet 8| inches in one place and 5 feet 10 inches m another. 8780. Professor Warren.] "Where is that ? 878L Witness.] At Croydon, that is to say, it is out' of gauge 3i inches in one place and 2 inches in another place— it IS an old platform, and one end of it has been altered. 8782. President. Is it onl^ in course of construction or is it going to be finished? The old and the new wall are blended togetner as if it were finished and the trains are running through at the present time, I may say that it is with the greatest reluctance that I have come to this room at all, and I should not now be here only that I thought an injustice had been done to me by what had been said.. 8783. Mr. Pehon.] You say you think an injustice has been done to you? Tes, I do. 878 i. Well, you have done it yourself by the way you have given your evidence ? In what way ? 8785. By not stating the facts thoroughly with regard to th^se platforms ? It has been put in such a way that I am made to appear entirely responsible for the expense which has been gone to in altering these platforms. 878G. How many have you put up under your own superintendence ? I do not know, but they were put lip ill accordance with the dimensions given to me. 8787. Ton put up seventy-eight, and out of the whole lot there were only two to gauge— seventy-six out of seventy-eight were out of gauge ? You say I did that. S788. Yes, or your people, those who were in your department when you had charge of it ; I have a list here, and I shall read it if you like, shall I read them all ? 8789. President.] I do not know if it is necessary to do so. 8700. Mr. Prawn.] Head some of them. 8791. Witness.] They seem to be all too wide. 87!}-'. Mr. Fehon.] Too wide or too narrow ? A difference of an inch and an eighth might occur in the i-Iearance of the road. 879.J. You say that most of these are on the single road? Yes. Tbe road has not been altered, but taken as a true road, and the platform has been calculated as a true platform. 879-1. The road has not been shifted to meet the mistakes'you made, but it has been considered to be a true road, and the platforms made what they ought to be to a true road? But you cannot get away from the fact that they are single roads. 879.1. The fact that it is a single road is no excuse for it being out of guage to meet a mistake in the construction of the platforms ? Those platforms were not erected by me. 8796. All these platforms were erected during the time you were in the Existing Lines Department ? Not those lines you are now alluding to. ' 8797. Professor Warren.] Speaking of Eedfern and other stations near Sydney, were not these platforms ])ut up many years ago by Mr. Whitton ? Yes, many years ago. 879S. Mr. Fehon.] Are you aware that Mr. VVhitton's guage in ,1878 or 1879 was 4 ft. 9 in. and not 5 ft. I never heard of that guage at all ; it was never shown to me in that way at all. 8/99. He had two gauges, one being 8 inches less than the present standard gauge, all the alterations which had to be made in Sydney and close to Sydney were they not carried out prior to the alteration of Mr. Whitton's gauge in 1878 or 1879 ? The Eedfern platform you are speaking of. 8800. President.] Were not all these platforms erected before the alteration of gauge ? I do not know of any alteration of gauge in 1879. 8801. Mr. Fehon.] Of course, if Mr. Cowdery does not know anything about it, I will ask him no more questions. 8802. Professor Warren.] Mr. Cowdery, I think, would not be ofiicially informed of what Mr. Whitton's alteration of gauge was. 8803. Mr. Fehon.] I presume not ; but Mr. Cowdery held an important position in the service, and hs ought to have known all the gauges. 880i. Witness.] If Mr. Whitton did alter the gauge I was never advised of it. He may have done so, but I was never informed of it. 8805. Mr. Fehon.] Mr. Cowdery said when he was last before this Commission that his memory was a little defective, so that perhaps he cannot remember it. 8806. Witness.] Perhaps. I only remember one alteration of gauge ; that was when the new engines came out. 8807. Mr. Hoyle.] Did you make any changes at Parramatta and along the suburban line for this class of engine \_Diagrani of class J, 152, put in] ? That is an American engine. It must have been for that engine that the alterations were made. 8808. These engines have been running since 1879 ? Then it was for them that the alterations were made. I never made any alteration after the introduction of the American engine on our line, and it was only on the Western line that I made the alterations I referred to, that is, on the line from Sydney through to the west. 8809. If the platforms were altered for these engines in 1879, and they have been admitted to be wider than the present Baldwin engines, then it would not have been necessary to alter the line to the we it in order to use the present engines ? No, not to alter the Western line. 8810. This diagram I may mention that engines as wide as the present Baldwin engines, if net a little 6—2 wider, 290 BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQUIEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OJ? ETIDENCE. Mr. Cowdery. wider, w6re running on our lines previous to the importation of the new Baldwin engines ; if the line 'T^''*"isq9 ^^® altered in 1879 to use these engines, surely it need not have been altered in order to use engines °®' ■^°-^- which the Eailway Commissioners have shown 'to be narrower ? I think, if such alterations were made, it must have been because the cylinders of the recently imported engines were at a different level, and the alterations were made to enable these cylinders to clear the platform. 8811. That would have all to do with it? Yes ; that is to say, the position in which the cylinders are placed in the present Baldwin engines. The new engines might be narrower over all, and still have carried the cylinders lower than the former engiiles. 8812. And that would have all to do with it ? Yes, I suppose so. The question of the American engines coming in contact with the platforms might depend upon the bearings or the cylinders overhanging more than other cylinders have done. All these things would bring them close to the platforms in going round curves. 8813. "When orders were issued for erecting platforms you always used plans ? Certainly. 8814. And they were to the standard gauge of your department at that time ? Certainly. 8815. And to the gauge of other platforms ? Yes. 8816. And if an error were made it was made, by those who carried the work out ? Certainly ; I do not suppose that any of the gentlemen present expect that in the position I then held I could go out and strictly measure every inch and see if anything were carried out. 8817. Professor Warren.'] You had competent men to do that ? Yes, most competent men. 8818. Mr. Fehon.] And if they had been carried out to the 5-foot gauge ? I do not know anything about the 5-foot gauge, it is a measurement I never heard of before. 8819. It comes to the same thing measured from the edge of the rail, or from the centre, if carried out to that gauge none of these alterations would have been necessary ? I say it is wrong. 8820. Professor Warren.] We have not the amount of water consumed during the trial trip, Mr. Fehon, Mr. Bland promised to get it for me, but he has not done so ; it is supplied, I suppose, to the Com- missioners, could they get it for us ? also, how many times they took water, so that we may be able to get the exact weight on the engine during the various trials ; my object is simply to check the weight of the engine at the time the trials were made ? Mr. E. M. G. Eddy recalled :— Mr. B. M. Q-. 8821. President.] Mr. Eddy is now present. Mr. Hoyle desires to ask you some questions by way of Eddj. cross-examination upon the statement you made before us in opening your case. C""'^^, 8822. Mr. Hoyle.] I noticed that in Mr. Eddy's evidence given a few days as;o he made the following "*' ■ statement. And I would ask at this point that if this matter has nothing to do with the subject of this inquiry, it would be well for the Commission to state so in order that time may not be wasted by going , into it. Mr. Eddy says in paragraph 6119 of the evidence : — " The failure of the various negotiations for the supply of engines to be built in the Colony, and consequent great loss of time, the rapid increase of traffic, the worn out condition of many of the locomotives, and the prospect of an exceptionally heavy wool season, rendered the immediate addition of new stock absolutely necessary. English locomotive builders being very busily engaged and consequently being unable to supply our wants promptly, the Baldwin Works were applied to and offered to deliver a large number of most powerful locomotives within an unprecedently short period." I ask Mr. Eddy, through you, Mr. President, if the Baldwin Co. were applied to immediately on the failure of the ntegotiations to have the engines manufactured in the Colony ? 8823. Mr. PJddy.] I do not think the question is one that has been referred to this Commission to inquire into. I stated at the commencement of my evidence that to make certain things intelligible I had to ask for little latitude to be allowed me to make a few general remarks. 8824. President.] "What have we got to do with whether tenders had been called in the Colony or not, or whether the American companies were applied to before the tenders were called or anything of that kind ? How does that affect the question as to whether the engines were rightly or wrongly ordered or were defective in their working and unsuitable to the permanent- way ? 8825. Mr. Hoyle.] That is why I raised the question. It was to have the matter decided that I raised It, because I thought that this part of Mr. Eddy's evidence was not within the scope of the inquiry, and I did not wish to transgress in that direction. 8826. Mr. .Eddy."] I think I said in opening my evidence that I must trespass upon the time of the Commission to explain what would be otherwise unintelligible to them. I know that Mr. Hoyle, Mr. Schey, and Mr. Midelton — what I may call " a ring," an expression so common at the present time. I know that this " ring" has been scheming and plotting throughout the .Commissioners' term of office, and I do object to be used in an improper way to get information from me for tKe use of this " ring," which has been using its best endeavours for the past three years and a half to get rid of the Eailway Commissioners. 8827. President.] I do not think we can go into anything like that now. If I am asked to rule about it I must rule that Mr. Hoyle cannot put the question ; it is right out of the scope of the Commission, and having ruled that, there need be no trouble about it, no matter what the motive is, whether it is the best or the worst motive. 8828. Mr. Hoyle.] I can only say here, as I have said many times since the inquiry began, that I regret that I should be made the subject of insult as I have been at the hands of the Chief Eailway Commissioner. As far as Mr. Eddy's remarks concern myself as being one of a " ring " who have attacked the Eailway Commissioners, I deny absolutely that I have had anything to do with a " ring," I have not been a tool; nor have I been a tool of Mr. Midelton's. * 8829. Mr. Eddy.] If you will read your speech in Parliament of March 30th. 8830. Mr. Hoyls.] I am in possession of the chair. 8831. Mr. JEddy.] You are in possession of a scoundrel. This Commission, Mr. President, has been appointed to inquire into the truth or otherwise of certain charges. I refuse to answer any questions put to me by one of our dismissed men, who entered Parliament and declared that he went there for the purpose of revenge. I decline to answer that man's questions. 8832. President.] I have already ruled that Mr. IToyle could not enter upon that line of inquiry, and after BAIiDWm DOCOMOTITES INQriET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENOE. 291 after Baving ruled that there is no need for you to say anything that is offensive to Mr. Hoyle, or for Mr. Mr. E. M; G. Hoyle to say anything offensive to you. Supposing that he is connected with other people towards whom ^"^^y- you have hostile feelings. , ':^^'-^^ 8833. Mr. Hoyle.'] Which I say is absolutely untrue. ^"®' •^^^^■ 8834. President.'] Supposing he was, what has it got to do with this inquiry ? "We want to conduct this inquiry quietly, calmly, and dispassionately. We want to see three things — whether these engines were required, are they doing the work expected of them, and are they suitable for the work ; and we do not want anything else. JSo doubt Mr. Eddy has been very much annoyed. 8835. Mr. Eddy.] I am prepared to. answer any questions which you, sir, or the other Commissioners put to me, but I decline to answer any such questions as those put to me by Mr. Hoyle. 8836. Mr. Hoyle.] I, as the son of an English gentleman, and from as good a family as anyone in this Oolony 8837. Mr. Eddy.] Behave yourself like a gentleman, and not like a scoundrel, then. 8838. Mr. Hoyle.] I now decline to cross-examine a man who has forgotten what one gentleman owes to another when he stands before a Eoyal Commission of the country, and forgets all the dignity of the great position he occupies. I decline to cross-examine a man who has so far forgotten himself before the public of the country. 8§39. Mr. Eddy.] 1 decline to answer you. 8840. Mr. Hoyle.] I decline to take any notice of you. I decline to cross-examine y6u. I am as good a man as you are, and came from as good a family. 8841. Mr. Brown.] To u must not turn this Commission into a bear-garden, you know. Mr. Eddy has shown a certain amount of hostile feeling. 8842. President.] There need be no hostile feelings here. 8843. Mr. Eddy.] I have no hostile feelings. 8844. Mr. Brown.] Tou have displayed them in a very marvellous way since you have been in this room, then. 8845. Mr. Eddy.] I am the victim of a n\imber of men in a conspiracy. 8846. Mr. Hoyle^ If I were in a position, I would make you prove it. 8847. President (to Mr. Eddy.)] So far as I can see, I do not think that there was any reason to call for anything you have said in reference to this, whatever may be your private feelings towards any person who is opposed to you. Mr. Hoyle is now here to ask you certain questions ; why cannot you answer him without anything like a feeling of warmth being imported into the matter at all. If anything you think wrong is asked you, appeal to us ; but I do not think, certainly, that you should make the Com- mission a means of using strong language about those who are opposed to you. I make every allowance for your feelings at this time, and I sympathise with you. (To Mr. Hoyle), I think it would be better to go on, Mr. Hoyle. 8848. Mr. Hx)yle.] No, Mr. President. There was never a man who sprang from the stock that I spring from who would ever do it. Whilst I was an officer in the service I treated Mr. Eddy with all the respect and consideration that I could. I fought as hard as any man could to make the service as perfect as it possibly could be. 8849. Mr. Eddy.] Is this speech to be allowed ? 8850. Mr. Hoyle.] I decline to cross-examine Mr. Eddy any further. 8851. Mr. Eddy.] I say distinctly that Mr. Hoyle and Mr. Schey have done more injury in the railway service of this Colony than, if they were given ten lives, they could overcome, and that if Mr. Hoyle considers it to be the work of a gentleman to make charges in Parliament about engines that had not yet reached the Colony, and fail absolutely to prove any one of those charges ; to undermine the service ; to cause papers to be stolen, and get information by tampering with the men in the service ; and joins with Mr. Schey to work up the Bathurst 8852. Mr. Hoyle^ It is only my sense of what is due by one gentleman to another that prevents me from •telling you what you are : Coward ! D d cur ! ! 8853. Mr. Eddy.] I decline to answer Mr. Hoyle. 8854. Mr. Brown.] Mr. Eddy, I think you lose sight of the fact that, whilst holding the high position you do in this country, yet before this Commission you are only a witness. Whilst I recognise your high position, I cannot admit any difference between you and any ordinary witness called to give evidence before us. ' . 8855. President.'] Would you like to put any questions to Mr. Eddy, through me, Mr. Hoyle ? Tou can do so perfectly well through me. 8856. Mr. Hoyle.] No, Mr. President, I must decline. 8857. Mr. Brown.] There is one feature in connection with these things that I am not quite satisfied with, and that you can no doubt give me a satisfactory explanation of ; I refer to the inspection of the loco- motives in America. Erom the evidence that we have had it appears the practice is not to send inspectors to the various locomotive works in America to supervise the building of the engine^, and in that way that the engines ordered from the Baldwin Company were not inspected whilst they were being built ? No. 8858. And when they arrived they were put on the road, as far as I can make out, in the ordinary way. The question for me to consider is, whether it was incumbent upon you— and when I speak of you of course I mean your officials— to have had the axles tested in any way before they were put upon the road, bearing in mind the fact that some previous eijgines not manufactured by the Baldwin Company, it is true, and manufactured in Scotland, but engines of a similar character to the Baldwin engines, had been the cause of dissatisfaction as far as the bogie axles were concerned. Taking all these things into consideration, knowing that you had had trouble with the axles of engines of a similar class before, and knowing that these engines had .been manufactured without the oversight of an inspector acting m your interest, do you think that it was incumbent on you to have subjected the axles to any test before you placed them upon the road ? I think you have had evidence given before you that with steel axles you can apply a test to one axle which will indicate pretty accurately the condition of the test that will be of value by testing one axle out of a lot. In the case of steel axles you can do that, and be pretty sure that the rest of the axles will be of the same material, but in the case of wrought iron axles the tact that one axle out of a lot has been tested and proved to be a good axle is no proof that the test of them are good ; and therefore, unless you smash up the whole of your axles m the process ot testing them, you could not possibly tell whether they were all good axles or not. 8859. *^2 BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVIS INQTJIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. "^ Edd^' ^* ^^^^' ^®^ ' ^^^ *^® evidence is to the effect that after you had been running your axles some time you ^^ A^^ did make a test. Tou subjected them to a drop test and to some other tests. If your argument is a good 1 June 1892 °^^ — ^^ ^* would have been valueless to test the axles in the first instance, of what use was it to apply * ■ the tests when you did ? I do not think that it would be a proper thing to break up axles sent with an engine for the purpose of testing whether the other axles were good. It is not the practice ; but with regard to inspection, taking advantage of the fact that Mr. Thow was on his way to America at the time that the engines were being built, we cabled to him to get his advice as to whether an inspecting officer should be appointed to supervise the construction of the engines in the same way as our inspecting officer supervises the construction of all engines that are built in England. He cabled back to us that it was not the practice in America to inspect, and that in America the- purchasers of engines trusted to the reputation of the firm with whom they placed their orders, and under those circumstances he asked for instructions, and we, not wishing to depart from the general practice, or to throw a doubt on the reputation of the Baldwin Engine Company, instructed Mr. Thow to follow the general custom in America. 8860. And you did not think it was necessary, on the part of yourselves or your officers, to subject the engines to any further inspection than the ordinary inspection to which you subject engines before they were put on the road ? Looking at the reputation of the firm, no. 8861. Although subsequent evidence proved that it was advisable, and, as a matter of fact, you actually did subject the axles to a test ? As they were scrap-iron axles, I did not see what could be the object of applying a test in the first instance. 8862. Te.s ; but we ha.ve this fact before us, that after you tested one axle the whole of the bogie axles were tested. 8863. Professor Warren,] Yes; but the axles had broken then. Mr. Eddy means, as I underslani it, that it is not customary to test axles before they are put on the road, inasmuch as the test would mean the breaking of the axles, and that that was why it was not done in this particular case. 8864!. Mr. ilddy.] Iron axles are better than steel. When the axle that broke was tested it was found that in its manufacture into an axle the iron had not been properly worked. When we found that the whole of the axles had been made by the same firm we thought that, as a matter of precaution, we liad better remove them all for fear that there might be bad material in some of the others. 8865. Frofessor Warren.'] To say that testing one of a series of scrap axles is no criterion of the quality of the remainder is rather a sweeping statement, I think, inasmuch as they were all made by one firm ? I did not make that statement. What I said was, that the testing of one scrap axle does not prove the quality of another scrap axle. If you were to say to me, " Could you not apply a test which would be of advantage if you had an inspector on the ground, who told you that they were all made in the same way ?" then I should say yes ; a test under those circumstances might be of advantage ; but inasmuch as the axles might have been made at different times, and in thirty different shops, I do not see that by taking one axle out of a lot and testing it you could obtain a standard of the quality of the other. ■ It is simply au argument in favour of the system of inspecting engines as they are inspected by Sir John Fowler during the process of manufacture in England — a system that has been attacked here very much lately — that of having an inspecting officer on the ground. 8866. Mr. Brown.] Tou evidently had that system in your mind when you cabled to Mr. Thow, suggesting the propriety of appointing an inspector to supervise the constructing of the engines by the Baldwin Company ; he told you that it was not the custom to appoint an inspector of that kind in America, and then very wisely retired from the field to await your instructions ; you did not think, under the circum- stances, that it would be wise to act contrary to the prevailing custom in America, and decided to throw the onus upon the manufacturers. Those are all the questions I want to ask. 8867. Mr. JEddi/.] I saw in the newspapers something with regard to Mr. Iloyle making a statement respecting this inquiry. I raised the question the last time I had the pleasure of being before you as to making a statement at the end of the inquiry, and you said that if it were evidence you would be prepared to admit it, but that if it were not evidence you thought it would be unwise to do so. Before we leave the room, I would like to know what is going to be your decision in regard to the statement that Mr. Iloyle has asked to be allowed to make. My statement, as it is called, was my evidence, and I was prepared to be cross-examined on it at once, and to answer any question at once, though I have this after- noon objected to answering questions put in the way they were being put. Mr. Hoyle, in formulating his charge, made a statement on my evidence. I do not look upon that as a statement at all in regard to the case. Mr. Iloyle stated his case ; I, on behalf of the Commissioners, when we began to place evidence before you, put the whole thing as concisely as I could, and that was done in the shape of evidence. The authorities I referred to I put in evidence, also drawings of engines and other references of that kind, so that those authorities, if it had been desirable, your Secretary could have checked, and thus arrived at the accuracy of what I said. If Mr. Hoyle is permitted to make a statement, I must ask. on the part of the Commissioners to be allowed to say something, but so far as my 'personal views are concerned, I think it would be better that no statement were made, because if I did make a statement I feel that it would be incumbent upon me perhaps to say something as a matter of duty that would' be disagreeable. 8868. President.] Will I tell you exactly what happened in regard to that. Mr. Hoyle asked whether he would be allowed to make a statement. I said if it were a statement in the way of advocacy, no. I was then reminded that in the statement you were good enough to give us the other day certain authorities were referred to that Mr. Hoyle might wish to call in question, or perhaps to bring other authorities forward to rebut. I then said that Mr. Hoyle should be allowed to state what he wished, which I took to be mainly in regard to these authorities, and that if they were considered by the Commission to be strictly in reply with the statements made by you, then we would exercise our discretion as to whether his state- ment should go into evidence at all. If, on the other hand, he is going to say a number of things that has nothing to do with the case, then the Commission would stop him at once ; but that if he was only going to quote authorities in conflict with authorities quoted by you then his statement might be made. 8869. Mr. Eddy.] Is he going to make his statement now ? 8870. President.] I suppose he will, as soon as the Commissioners' case is concluded. There was a good deal of difficulty about it, but as it was thought that yours was a very able statement of the case it was considered fair if there was anything that Mr. Hoyle wished to question in it that he should have an opportunity of doing so. A good deal of your statement, you understand, was not really, strictly speaking, evidence. 8S71, PrepJetit] Is that tlie Ciise for the Commissioners f 8^72, BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQtFIET COMMISSlOIf — MlNtlTES OF ETIBENCE. 293 8872. Mr. Eddy.] Well, tte Commissioners understand that you have stopped our evidence on certain Mr. E. M. G. points. . Eddy. 8873. President^ That is all in your favour. /p--^^— n 8874. Mr. Eddy.} Tes, if you are satisfied. We of course can produce any quantity of evidence beyond "' ^^^^' what we have produced to prove vs^hat is the correct answer to these charges, but if you are satisfied that you have sufficient evidence we have no wish to further prolong the inquiry by putting any more witnesses before you. 8875. President.'] I will tell you exactly how the matter stands. We understood the other day that there were a number of drivers who Could come and testify to the same effect that the drivers whom you have already called have testified to. We said that we did not want them, because we took it for granted that they would come here and say precisely what had been said by the drivers whom you had already called. 8876. Mr. Eddy.] If you are satisfied, that is all we require. 8877. Mr. Brown.] On that particular point we are satisfied. 8878. President^ We vvere quite satisfied that the drivers whom you were prepared to call would say what the other drivers had said, and that in saying that they would be speaking quite conscientiously. 8S79. Mr. Eddy.] The drivers of whom I have spoken would have been able to give very much stronger evidence thon those whom you have already heard ; they would have testified to the quality of the engines from daily experience. S8S0. President.] Then perhaps we had better have them. What we say is that we are satisfied that Ihese witnesses would all testify, and testify truthfully to the good qualities of the Baldwin engines. They would say that there was apparently nothing wrong about them in construction ; that they took their burves well ; that they did not do the road any harm ; that they were good engines to work ; and were hauling their full loads. We take it that you have a large number of good witnesses who are prepared to come here and say all that ; but if you want to call them, you had better do so. 8881. Mr. Eddy.] ISTo ; if you are satisfied on that point, we do not want to call them. 8882. Mr. Prown.] Have you any other witnesses ? 8883. Mr. Eddy.] We have no further witnesses, unless there is anything that you would like to hear. 8884. President.] I understand then that that closes the case for the Commissioners. What do you intend to do, Mr. Hoyle ? 8885. Mr. SoyJe.] In reference to my statement, I may say that I am in the unfortunate position of not being able to go on with it at present. I have sent it to the typewriter, and it has not yet been returned. So far as that is concerned, I am not able to go on this evening with the statement, and must ask for an adjournment. 8886. Mr. Brown.] Will you be able to go on to-morrow ? 8887. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes ; I shall certainly be able to proceed with the statement to-morrow. I thought I should have been able to do so this afternoon ; but it is not here, and therefore I cannot. 8888. Mr. Eddy.] I must point out that by reason of being here to-day, the Commissioners have had to postpone the hearing of twenty-six appeals from all parts of the Colony. They have had to send all these people back into the country, and already they have been waiting for a week or two. I cannot be here to-morrow ; I have got another of these Commissions to attend — a Commission that is inquiring into charges made against me of all sorts of things — and it is rather hard upon the Eailway Commissioners that another adjournment should be asked for. 8889. President.] What day could you conveniently attend. Your convenience shall certainly be considered as well as anybody else. 8890. Mr. Eddy.] I have not a day ; the work of the railways is in fact now a month or more behind. 8891. President.] We cannot help that. 8892. Mr. Eddy!] I have had to work all the night through to be ready with my information — night after night and Sunday too. I have not delayed the Commission for one minute. Mr. Hoyle ought also to be in the position to proceed with his case without causing delay. He has had the Court adjourned on one or two occasions ; he obtained an adjournment in the first place, owing to the Tarana accident. 8893. President.] I want to tell you this, Mr. Eddy. It is not Mr. Hoyle who is delaying us now. Mr. Hoyle has done his share towards getting ready, but some typewriter has not got ready for him what he anticipated this afternoon. That is not nis fault. 8894. Mr. Eddy.] I do not know. I had to write my statement with my own hand — every word of it — and if, when it was given to the typewriter, it had not been ready, I should have gone on with it. 8895. President.] Ton quite understand this — how the case has been conducted. I called upon Mr. Hoyle, first of all, to specify the charges we had to inquire into. He made his case ; you made your case ; and if there are certain things which have come out for the first time when you made your statement, in answer to what he has said — things which he wants in some way to qualify or contradict — I cannot prevent him doing that. I shall not let him go beyond that, however. I do not know what his statement may be. If it goes beyond the contradiction of certain new facts which you brought out in your state- ment, I shall prevent his stating them. 8896. Mr. Eddy.] It is a week since I gave my evidence. I was prepared to be cross-examined at the time. Every witness Mr. Hoyle has brought we cross-examined on the spot. He had the same oppor- tunity of cross-examining me. He did not do so. A week has elapsed since then, and now he is asking for another postponement. 8897. Mr. Brown.] The fact of the matter is, that if it had not been for the fire that took place just now Mr. Hoyle would have been all the afternoon in cross-examining you, but the proceedings have broken down. Unexpectedly, he finds he is in want of his notes, and they are at the typewriter's. 8898. President.] There is this difficulty in the way, Mr. Hoyle, as I pointed out to you before. _ Sup- posing, for the sake of argument, Mr. Eddy had said that the spacing of sleepers on certain Imes in America is so much, and you want to make out by some authority that the spacing of sleepers in America is very much less— that they are spaced at distances quoted by you from the Encyclopedia Brifannica yesterday — the proper way,' and. indeed, the only way, for you to get it in evidence is to ask, in the course of cross-examination, from Mr. Eddy or anybody you like, whether he has heard the statement quoted in a certain article that sleepers are placed in America only 2 ft. 7 in. apart, whilst he stated that they were placed 3 feet apart, In that way, yo^ get your authprity yegorded ip pvidepce, qtherwisp I do not "^* BAIDWISr LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRY COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Md ^ ^^^ ^°^ ^^ ^^ evidence at all. All the books that were cited by Mr. Eddy were not evidence in any way ^,^^,^^" "whatever. " In a Court of law in a poisoning case perhaps something of this kind would happen. A 1 June 1892 •^°'^*°^ 1*^8 come into Court to swear that a man has exhibited signs of poisoning by strychnine, and it ■ may be the case of the opposing counsel that the man was poisoned by arsenic, and in those circumstances the side that wanted to prove arsenical poisoning would probably say to the witness, ' Do you know such and such a book. In that book it is pointed out that the symptoms that you have described are symptoms of arsenical poisoning. How does that affect your conclusion ? ' " In that way the authority would be placed in evidence. 8899. Mr. Royle.'\ Tou promised that I should make a statement, Mr. President, and I concluded that ia the course of making that statement I should not be interrupted. There was much in Mr. Eddy's state- ment thab was not evidence ; but in order that the public should have the benefit of it I did not rise from my seat once for the purpose of interrupting Mr. Eddy when he was reading it; and I consider that when I come to make my statement I should not be interrupted, but that when the matter came before the Commission in typewriting they might then strike out what they considered not to be evidence. 8900. President.'] I want to point out to you what the exact position of things is. You made your state- ment in the beginning. Tou made that statement on oath, and we have got practically everything in it. Then Mr. Eddy made his statement. If you did not object to it when he was reading it, or to any part of it, I cannot help that. If you had objected to it, and the Commission had considered that it was not evidence, or that some parts of it were not evidence, they would have been disallowed. Now you say that you could make a statement. I do not know what was in the minds of the other Commissioners, but I certainly thought that if there were certain things in it that were not evidence that you would be told at once that it could not be admitted ; but the other members of the Commission do not seem to agree with me. They seem to think that you -s'ere told that you might make your statement, and that afterwards, if we thought that some portions of it were not admissible as evidence, they would afterwards be eliminated. I am very sorry if you have been misled by what was said to you yesterday. What I meant to say was that if you had anything to advance in reply to any facts that Mr. Eddy brought out the first time in his statement you should have an opportunity of stating them, but not of going beyond that. 8901. Mr. Eddy.] And I would submit that all the evidence that I gave has been confirmed by our oflScers. They have been subjected to cross-examination, and if there was anything in my statement which, as I say, was confirmed by them that deserved challenge, they could have been cross-examined upon it. 8902. President.'] Well, I do not know what Mr. Hoyle's statement is until I see it or hear it read. Then it will be necessary for the Commission to rule upon its admissibility or otherwise.' I have my own views about it, but I do not want Mr. Hoyle to be misled by anything I have done. If I have misled him by any statement of mine I should be very much more inclined to give him more liberty than I. otherwise should have done. I do not know what he wishes to say. He may wish to bring rebutting authority, or there may be some new fact which you mentioned that he wants to refute, and that will be allowed ; but further than that, personally I shall be opposed to him going. 8903. Mr. Soyje.] What I want to know is, whether I am allowed to make the statement in the first place, any whether, having made that statement, when it is placed before the Commission they will then consider the admissibility of the whole or any portion of it. 8904. President.] If, by making a statement, you mean that you want to make a reply upon the whole case, as far as my judgment goes I say "No." If you wish to point out that some ot the facts stated by Mr. Eddy are wrong — some of the statements made by him for the first time when opening the case for the Railway Commissioners, I see no objection tg your doing so. • 8905. Mr. Brown.] Tes; but that is not the decision of the Commission ; it is the decision of the Presi- dent. As far as I am concerned, you may go through the whole case, and afterwards you may hand that statement in, and the Commissioners will go through it and eliminate what they consider ought not to form part of the proceedings. That is ray opinion. I do not know what Professor Warren says. 8906. Professor Warren.] 1 entirely agree with Mr. Brown. I do not see that there can be the least harm in the world in Mr. Hoyle making a general statement, and I should like to hear it. 8907. Mr. Eddy.] In the meantime the whole of the statement having gone to the Press ? 8908. President.] No, I do not think so. If your statement, and the majority of the Commission seem to think you can make that statement, is to be a sort of reply to the whole case, then it would be for us to consider whether they would not first hear you or any of your officers make your resume of the whole case. That is what would be done anywhere else. 8909. Mr. Brown.] Then the Commissioners can cross-examine Mr. Hovle. 8910. President.] Again? 8911. Mr. Brown.] Tes. My idea is that after Mr. Hoyle has made his statement Mr. Eddy might cross-examine him and then make his statement. 8912. Professor 'PFarren.] If the Railway Commissioners wish to give further evidence. 8913. Mr. Brown.] But I should object to any more evidence coming in at all. 8914. Mr. Uddy.] I quite understand that if Mr. Hoyle is allowed to make a statement the Railway Commissioners will be allowed to do the saine. 8915. Mr. Brown.] As far as I am concerned, yes. And if these statements are to be published I think they ought to be published together. 8916. Mr. Uddy.] I do not for one moment wish to be considered to be dictating to the Commission, and I hope that they will understand the spirit in which I make this suggestion, but inasmuch as there is a grave question as to the wisdom of Mr. Hoyle's statement being admitted, would it not be well for Mr. Hoyle to submit it to the Commission before he reads it. Ia that case they could consider whether it is of such a nature as it would be wise to make public ; then after having considered the statement they could give their decision upon it. 8917. Mr. Brown.] I do not think so, because Mr, Hoyle is prepared to swear to the statement that he is going to make. Is that not so ? 8918. Mr. Hoyle.] Tes. 8919. Mr. Brown.] Therefore he is in exactly the same position as you were in when you made your statement. 8920. Mr. Eddy.] I beg to differ. Mr. Hoyle made his statement and brought his witnesses. I made my statement and brought my witnesses, and so far as the Commission are concerned thev have said the case may be BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIET COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 29S be closed this moment, but if Mr. Hoyle is permitted to sum up the whole case, and to make statements, the Mr, E. M. &. nature of which are not known at the present time, then we think that we should be permitted to cross, -^ddy, examme Mr. Hoyle, and to make a similar statement upon the whole case, but in view of the length' of /p-*— \ time that has been occupied by the proceedings up to now we should like to see them closed at once. •"• •'"°^' ^^^2. 8921. Frestdent.'] Well, I have given my opinion about it. I have said that I consider that Mr. Hoyle ought only to make a statement strictly in reply. That is to say, if there are any new facts brought up by you ni your statefhent to be refuted, or if some authority that you then quoted is to be disputed or qualified, that is, as far as I am concerned, as far as Mr. Hoyle ought to go, but the majority of the Commission do not think so. They tbinlc that Mr. Hoyle is at liberty to make any statement he likes. If it is convenient to Mr. Hoyle to hand a type-written copy of his statement in I should be very glad to see it, but the probability is that, as far as I am concerned, the whole statement would be valueless. 8922. Mr. Eddy.'] I believe that Mr. Hoyle has a type-written copy of his Statement before him now. 8923. Mr. Royle.'] It has just arrived, but I have not had time to revise it. If you will permit me however, Mr. President, I will end the matter now, and I do it against the advice of my friends and with- out any desire to I now ask permission to withdraw my application to make a statement at all, I will endeavour to get another opportunity of placing it before the public. As a matter of fact the statement is here, but I have not had an opportunity of revising it. I bes: now to thank the members of the Commission for the manner m which they have conducted the case, No man could have had more fair play than I have had in this matter. What I have done I did from a sense of public duty ; I believed what I did to be right ; and I trust that I should do the same though I were faced by any man in the world. Whatever the finding of this Commission may be I shall always consider and I can only say in conclusion that what I have done I have done from a pure sense of public duty, absolutely free from the promptings of any man. That whatever information I obtained I obtained through documents published in the public press or laid on the table of Parliament House, and from my own experience of fifteen years in the Eailway service. I am not a man to be induced to take a step simply because someone comes along and tells me that such-and-such a thing is the case without carefully considering the ma,tter in all its bearings myself. However, the proceedings are now at an end, and all I can say is that again I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the kind and generous treatment that I have received at your hands. 8924. Mr. Eddy.] I have also to thank the Commission for the way in which they have conducted the business of the inquiry. I think I can say something very different from what Mr. Hoyle has said in regard to his sense of public duty in the making of statements and charges. 8925. Mr. Broivn.] I hopie you will not say it then. 8926. Mr. Eddy.] But I will refrain from doing so, and will only say that I regret that such grave charges should have been made with so little justification, and that the country should have suffered the enormous loss that it has suffered through the Eailway Commissioners and their chief officers being withdrawn so much from their duties, the result of which can only be an enormous loss of money and the creation of considerable trouble in the Service; but so far as this Commission is concerned I thank you for the courteous way in which the Commissioners and their oificers have been treated. 8927. President.] To both Mr. Eddy and Mr. Hoyle it is needless to say that the Commission have done no more than they thought to be perfectly right. They have, I hope, to each side meted out the same measure of justice ; and 1 need hardly say that we are quite charitable enough to attribute good motives to Mr. Hoyle in bringing the charges forward, indeed nobody has supposed anything else. There is no necessity for him, on the one hand, to say that he is not actuated by any evil motive, for we do not con- sider that he is. On the other hand we shall consider the case apart from any warmth of feeling ; and I think it is fair to say this, that if Mr. Eddy has been unduly warm to-day and has offended Mr. Hoyle there cannot be any doubt that he has suffered great provocation, I do j^ot say from Mr. Hoyle, but from others, and that this is only the last straw that is breaking the camel's back, because it may be that Mr. Hoyle has not only brought this matter forward from the best of motives, but he may possible be quite right in some of his intentions, and, therefore, Mr, Eddy should not have questioned the motives which led him to bring it forward ; but at the same time I think great allowance must be made for Mr. Eddy. It is a matter of notoriety that ever since he has been here, by disappointed people, and by people who ought to have known better — there is another Commission sitting and I cannot say more — otherwise I should speak very strongly regarding their actions, but I do not refer to Mr. Hoyle — but in other quarters there has been one of the most disgraceful persecutions I have ever seen in my life. I do not say by whom the persecutions have taken place, because the case is at present suh judice. I cannot say more ; only let it be understood that Mr. Eddy has been the subject of persecution. I wish to be perfectly understood, that I do think Mr. Hoyle has had any part in them. FBIBAY, 11 JUNE, 1892. \_The Commission met in the Board-room, Oohnial Secretary's Office, at 3 p.m.] P. E. EOGERS, Esq., Q.O., President. Pe&fessor WAREEN, M.I.C.E., | ALEXANDER BROWN, Esq., M.L.C, J.P. 8928. President.] On the 3rd of this month I received the letter I hold in my hand from Mr. Eddy. It was marked upon the outside " private," but I presume that there is no harm in my referring to it. 8929. Mr. Smith.] Certainly not. 8930. President.] Because it has since appeared in the public press. The letter is couched in the following terms : — Sir, Eailway Commissioners' Office, 3 June, 1892. I write to call your attention to the proceedings at the last meeting of the Railway Commission on the Baldwin engines, and to state that the remarks made by me to Mr. Hoyle were unguarded. But they were made under circumstances of great mental suffering and excitement, cause by the intolerable attacks made during many months past, not only upon my capacity and management, but also upon my integrity and reputation— attacks in which I felt convinced, from a great number •293 BAfJD^^'I^^ LOCOiiO'X'ivEs ixciuiiir coiiiiissioir — iiisuTES op evidence. number of circumstances, Mr. Hoyle was involveil. Nevertheless, on reflection, I feel I failed in the respect due to the Commission, and also in the respect due to Mr. Hoyle's position before the Commission. I therefore desire to express my regret, and to withdraw the offensive observations I used with reference to Mr. Hoyle and his conduct. If it could be arranged for the objectionable remarks to be omitted from the minutes of the proceedings I should be glad. I am, &c., E. M. G. EDDY. After that, at a meeting the Commissioners held in this room on the 9fch June, which I may state was the first meeting at which I could command the attendance of my colleagues, I caused the following letter to be sent in answer to that of Mr. Eddy : — Sir, Colonial Secretary's OfBoe, 9 June, 1892. Eeferring to your communication of the 3rd instant, which I regret to say I have not had an opportunity to answer before, in consequence of not having met my brother Commissioners, I desire to say that the Commission accept your withdrawal of the remarks made by you on the occasion referred to, and readily understand that they must have been made under circumstances of great mental suffering. With regard to your request, that " If it could be arranged for the objectionable remarks to be omitted from the minutes of the proceedings " you would be glad, the Commissioners are of opinion that whilst they would be most happy to fall in with your wishes, they think that the application you make should be considered publicly in the presence of all concerned in the inquiry, and with a view to this object being attained, they have convened a meeting of the Commission for the I7th instant, of the time of the holding of which due notice will be given to the parties interested. I am, &c., F. E. ROGERS, President. 8931. Mr. Smith.'] I would like to make an explanation here, appearing as I do for Mr. Eddy. Since that letter of the 3rd instant was written, namely, on the 7th of this month, Mr. Eddy has been served with a writ, or rather a writ was issued out of the Supreme Court" against him at the suit of Mr. Hoyle in which the endorsement states that the plaintiff claims £10,000 for damages, and so forth. It is a writ issuing out of the Supreme Court of New South Wales, and that writ being in the ordinary form it gave no information as to what the cause of action is, and for' reasons which are obvious, it was not preceded by the ordinary solicitor's letter, which gives a general idea of the cause of the action. So that until the declaration is filed, the defendant does not really know what is the cause of action, but Mr. Eddy has, of course, no doubt that it is the outcome of the proceedings referred to in this correspondence, and in connection with which the Commission have met to-day. There are several small matters in con- nection with this writ which I need not-now refer to. I mean in the way in which it was brought to Mr. Eddy's notice at a time when he was in attendance at another Commission, though probably this arose through a mistake. It must not, however, be understood that the reason Mr. Eddy does not appear here to-day is because he is terrified by these proceedings. It is not on account of that he is absent. 8932. President.'] I do not understand what it is you desire to do, Mr. Smith. S933. Mr. Smithi] I am explaining that in the interval between these two letters a writ was served on Mr. Eddy. 8934. Mr. Brown.] I do not think there ought to be any discussion about it in any shape or form. So far as the parties here are concerned, if there is no objection on the part of Mr. Hoyle or anyone else to the withdrawal of these objectionable remarks, the Commission think that course may be taken, hut if Mr. Hoyle has any objection to the withdrawal of the report of these proceedings, he can say so, and there is an end to the matter. 8935. Mr. Williamson.] 1 appear for Mr. Hoyle. 8936. Mr. JBroion.] Tou cannot appear for Mr. Hoyle. No one can appear here as the representative of any party, it having been resolved by the Commission that counsel should not appear. 8937. President.] I understand he appears only with regard to this one particular thing. 8938. Mr. TVilliamgon.] Yes ; it is only with regard to this one matter. A declaration has been put on record to-day, and Mr. Smith's firm has been served with a copy of it, and I have a copy with me sctliug forih the grounds of the action. The declaration will show Mr. Smith the full cause of the action. S9o9. Mr. Brown.] Do you object to the report of the proceedings being withdrawn. 8940. Mr. Williamson.] I do ; I object to any elimination of the remarks made by Mr. Eddy from tlie ofScial report. 8941. President.] Does Mr. Hoyle object ? 8942. Mr. Williamson.] Yes ; I object on behalf of Mr. Hoyle. 8943. President.] I am only speaking for myself, but what struck me was this, that the passages in the proceedings referred to had nothing to do with the evidence in the case, and I proposed to have them eliminated. I refer to what was taken down in shorthand, relating to what was said by Mr. Eddy and also by Mr. Hoyle. I thought it would be better if those remarks should not appear in the printed record of the proceedings. "What have they to do with the proceedings in any way whatever, and I understood that this would apply in one case as well as in another. 8944. Mr. Williamson.] Our cause of action is based upon what was said by Mr. Eddy. 8945. President.] 'We have nothing to do with your cause of action. 8946. Mr. Williamson.] "We have been supplied with a type-written copy of the shorthand notes, manifesting that they were part of the records. This [producing manuscript] is a copy supplied to Mr. Hoyle. 8947 President.] They were not part of the records, then. 8948. Mr. Williamson.] It appeared to be so from the copy supplied to me. 8949. President.] "What appears as part of the record is what is printed in the official report of the pro- ceedings ; what you have will not be part of the records until it is printed ; and I think it would have been wise for both sides to have it kept out of the proceedings. 8950. Mr. Williamson.] The position in which Mr. Hoyle stands is this : A full report of these pro- ceedings was contained in the summary published by the Sydney Morning Herald, and has been trans- mitted to other parts of the world. 8951. President.] That is so much damage, of course, but I cannot see how it affects your action in having these passages left out of the records of the Commission. For the sake of both sides I think it would be nicer to have them left out. S952. Mr. Williamson.] If it were the party who was aggrieved — namely, Mr. Hoyle — who made the application, it would be different, and there would be something for the Commission to consider, but for the person who commits the offence to step in afterwards, and ask for these words to be eliminated from the official records, is quite another matter. 8953. BAIBWIN LOCOMOTIVES INQUIRT COMMISSION— MIHrTES OF ETIDENCE. 397 8953. Mr. Smith.] I do not ask to have the passages left out; I simply leave the matter to the Com- mission. 8954. President.] Mr. Eddy asks for it in this letter ; he says he will be glad if it could be done. 8955. Mr. Srown.] If there is any objection to their being taken out of the records thev must stand as part of the proceedings, at least, so far as I am concerned. If this objection is pressed I think we must allow them to stand as part of our proceedings. 8956. President.'} If the matter were left to me I would leave them out. For the sake of both parties I think that would be the better thing to do. There were words, also, which were said on the other side. I do not say they were not very much provoked, but I think, for the sate of both parties, it would have been well to leave these passages out, and if the matter were left to me I would do so ; but, of course, it depends upon what the majority of the Commission thinks ought to be done. 8957. Professor Warren.'] I agree with Mr. Brown. 8958. President (after consultation with the other members of the Commission).] The majority of the Commission think that these passages should form part of our proceedings. 8959. Mr. Smith.] I beg to say now that inasmuch as proceedings have been brought to the Supreme Court of New South Wales against Mr. Eddy, he feels that he would not be showing sufficient respect to that Court if he continued to appear at the proceedings of this Commission otherwise than as a witness. He thinks he may injure himself by appearing before this Commission in any other capacity, or by taking part in its proceedings m any way other than as a witness. He is quite willing to attend and answer any questions that may be put to him, but his time is now so very much taken up that he thinks it would be more convenient if any information is required from him that the questions should be submitted to him, BO that he may be able to furnish the answers required in the form of a return. 8960. Mr. Proien.] I do not think we shall want him. ■ 8961. Mr. Smith.] Inasmuch as these charges have been brought against the corporation known as the Eailway Commissioners, who are now the only party before this Eoyal Commission, they have furnished me with a retainer under their common seal to appear for them, and if anything should be required on their part I am here to represent them. 8962. Mr. Brown.] The inquiry is practically over. It has been reopened only for the benefit of the Commission, to enable them to secure certain information they want. 8963. Mr. Smith.] We are anxious to give the Commission all the information we can. So far as we are concerned, I think we will not call any witnesses. 8964. Mr. Brown.] "We are simply holding this meeting for our own information, and not with the idea of having witnesses from either side. 8965. President.] Is Mr. Thow here ? 8966. Professor Warren.] Before Mr. Thow is examined I would like to say a few words. I asked for a return of the broken rails on the lines where the Baldwin engines were running, showing the nuinber of rails broken since the time they have been running, and also those broken during a similar time previously. That return has not been furnished to the Commission. 8967. Mr. Smith.] It will be furnished in due course. 8968. Professor Warren.] I hope it will be furnished as soon as possible, as we hope to bring our report out within a week or so. 8969. Mr. Smithy As a matter of fact, there is not a complete record of these, rails, but a return is being prepared, and will be furnished as soon as possible. Mr. M'Lachlan left Sydney yesterday to get the figures. 8970. Mr. Soyle.] He did not leave yesterday. I believe I saw him yesterday myself. 8971. Mr. Smith.] I have had a telegram from him, despatched from Bathurst this morning. 8972. Mr. Hoyle.] He may have gone up by the morning train. 8973. Mr. Smith.] Tes, probably. Any particulars the Commission want relating to this matter will be furnished as soon as possible by the Eailway Commissioners. 8974. President.] There is some difficulty about this matter, Mr. Smith. Hitherto we have not had either the Eailway Commissioners or Mr. Hoyle, represented by counsel or solicitor, and one at all events of my fellow Commissioners, thinks it undesirable to admit counsel or solicitor to represent either party at this late stage of the proceedings. 8975. Mr. Smith.] I do not take any part in the proceedings in that way. The Eailway Commissioners do not appear, and I am here simply as their representative. They are a corporate body represented by their common seal, and as they cannot very well bring their common seal here to represent them. I have been retained to appear on their behalf. 8976. President^ Mr. Eddy was here at the early stages of the inquiry, and in the later Mr. Pehon appeared. 8977. Mr. Smith.] And Mr. Eddy also appeared in the later stages. His sole reason for not appearing now is that an action has been brought against him. 8978. Mr. Brown.] If he likes to stay away, that is his own look out ; but so far as we are concerned, we do not intend to have any of the parties represented here by counsel. 8979. Mr. Smith!] Quite so. I am not going to have any counsel here. S980. Professor Warren.] You will write about the return I spoke of, Mr. Smith ? 8981. Mr. Smith!] I undertake to furnish the return. 8982. Professor Warren.] I am surprised that it should take more than an hour or so to furnish the particulars. We know these things are kept on record by all railway companies. William Thow recalled : — 8983. President.] Mr. Thow, we want you to give us all the information you can about the breaking of a Mr. tire of one of the wheels of a Baldwin engine, which took place last Monday week between, I thmk, W. Thow. Bowenfels and the next station. Do you remember the breaking of that tire ? Tes ; I remember f-^ — v the case. . 17 June. 1892. 8984. Do you know anything yourself about it ? I have seen the broken tire, 8985. Can you give us any reason for its breaking ? I do not think I could just now. The steel has not yet been tested. The tire was made of steel by a very good firm in America, and it broke apparently g_2 p without BALDWIN- LOCOMOTIVES INQTTIET COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Mr. TOthout any extra strain. There was no unusual work on the tire at the time it fractured, but the W. Thow. testing of the steel is the only thing that will reveal the cause of its breaking. To aU appearance the 17Jiine'l892 ™^terial of the tire is very gopd steel, but I should say it was hard ? ' 8986. Hard ? Yes ; hard ; and that would cause the fracture. If it is over-hard it is unsuit-able, because a tire must have a certain amount of elasticity, and you cannot have both hardness and elasticity. 8987. "Would you call it good steel for a tire ? I would rather not speak upon that point until the material has passed through the tensile test, because any opinion I now give is simply drawn from the appearance of the tire. We are preparing to test pieces of the tire, and they will be ready on Monday night or Tuesday, and the result of those tests wiU show what the steel is. 8988. When wiU you have the tests completed, that is to say, when will they be in such a condition that anyone could give us information about the tire ? Wednesday or Thursday next, I should think. 8989. Professor Warren.'] Might I ask who is going to test the pieces ? I think it is very likely it will sent to the University. 8990. In any case I would like to know the nature of the tests, because one would theii be able to form an opinion on the quality of the steel from the nature of the tests you are going to submit it to. 8991. Mr. Brown.'] Was it the tire of the bogie-wheel or of the tender-wheel ? It was on one of the tender-wheels. 8992. Is it usual for a tire to break in that way ? I have known them to break ; but it is not a very usual thing for tires to break in that way. 8993. President.'] Was there anything the matter with the bolts ? Ko ; they were all right. They came ofE after the tire itselE broke. That seemed to be proved by the examination that was made. 8994. So that there was nothing the matter with the bolts ? Nothing at all. 8995. Professor Warren.] Tou think the breakage was entirely due to the steel of the tire ? I think so, from the appearance of the steel. When we cut it, I saw it was very hard — probably too hard to be good material for a tire. 8996. "Professor Warren.] We have had evidence of another tire breaking. Mr. Park gave some evidence on the subject ? Tes, there was one that broke. 8997. President.] What tire was that? A tender- wheel tire. 8998. Professor Warren.] The present one is a tender- wheel tire also, is it not ? Tes. 8999. Mr. Brown.] Tou do not know the circumstances under which it broke, do you ; was it a passenger Baldwin engine ? Tes ; the tire of the wheel which broke at Bowenfels was on a Baldwin passenger engine. We have had three tires broken altogether. Two have been on passenger trains, and one on a goods train. 9000. President.] Was the one Professor Warren referred to on a passenger or a goods train ? The first one was on a goods train, and the other on a passenger train. 9001. Mr. JR. Smith.] I have a report by Mr. Thow, which gives details of these matters. 9001^. Mr. Brown.] How many of the Manchester engines have you — the large ones? We have twelve running, and I think eight in the harbour. 9002.. How long have these been running ? I suppose they have been running about seven weeks. 9003. Have they shown any defects in the wheels or tires ? No ; nothing at all. 9004. Professor Warren.] Do you not think it unusual for so many tires to have broken since these engiaes — I refer to the Baldwin engines, of course — ^have been here ? It is unusual. 9005. And there is no guarantee that the other tires are any better ? 9006. Mr. Smith.] I am authorised to say that on this tire breaking the Railway Commissioners took the opportunity of ordering that the whole of the tires, forty-eight in number, should be taken off, and other wheels and axles should be pMced upon the Baldwin engines. They were withdrawn from traffic until this was doiie, and they are not being put into traiSc where the ordinary standard tires still remain. In order to afford an opportunity to this Commission to examine the tires it was suggested that they should inspect all of them, and then select from the whole one, two, or three which they thought might look the worst and submit them to any strains or tensile tests thought fit. Of course, the Bailway Commissioners are just as anxious as this Eoyal Commission to secure the safety of human life, and they felt that it was a very unusual circumstance that after an engine had travelled only 20,000 miles, a tire should break. They thought there was something extraordinary in this happening. This is not a matter which originally arose upon inquiry before this. Commission ; but since this accident has happened the Commissioners desire me to say that they have taken them off and put new wheels and axles in place of the old ones, and the whole of these old wheels and axles have been kept, so that it would be convenient, in the event of the Commission appointing experts to test the wheels. Professor Warren himself, who is a member of this Commission, might undertake the necessary tests. Of course, the broken tires will be examined by direction of the Railway Commissioners, and if they are not examined by Professor Warren himself, he will be asked to be present at the examination. Of course, in saying this I have presumed that the Commission defer to Professor Warren as their scientific representative. 9007. President.] Of course. 9008. Professor Warren.] I may state that the best examination will be in the testing machine, where we can obtain ductility and tensile results. The only machine available for such a purpose is at the University, so that if I could get the test pieces which have been already prepared we could settle the question beyond all doubt. 9009. Mr. Smith.] Hitherto the Baldwin Engine Company Lave not made any objection to refunding in cases where defective material has been proved to have been used. The Railway Commissioners have money in hand not yet paid to the Baldwin Company, and it is proposed to charge that company with the expense of refitting these engines. If it were considered advisable to break up five or six more of these wheels it might be done. 9010. Mr. Thow.] The following is the report I made with regard to the breakage of tires : — The first case of broken tires on Baldwin engines occurred on the tender of engine No. 485 (goods), which engine worked No. 46a up-goods into Penrith' on the 4th May. After the arrival ii> locomotive yard at that station it was found that the left hand leading tender tire was broken. The wheels were changed, and no damage and no delay to traffic was caused by this breakage. The next case w.is that of engine No. 448 (passenger), on which the tender tire broke when working No. 28 up-passenger train on the 6th instant, from Bathurst to Penrith. Driver Pullerton reports that when approaching mileage 98 "50 chains, between Wallerawang and Bowenfels, at about ]1"50 a.m., his fireman (H. SmithJ called out to him, " Hold hard." FuUertonat once stopped the train as quickly as possible, and upon looking round he found the tender and BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQtriET COMMISSION- — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 399 a Wse-box, which was the leading vehicle oa the train, oscillating very much. Upon getting down, he found the tire of the Mn third pair of tender wheels on the right-hand side was broken and off the wheel, causing derailment of the trailing bogie W. fhdw of the tender and the leading wheels of the horse-box. Delay was occasioned to the two passenger trains by this accident, -.^^i^-^ The only damage to permanent- way was a few chairs broken. The damage to the rolling-stock consisted of the trailing iyjnnfl.l«iK> tender bogie framebemg broken and some of the air pipes broken. The time-table speed for No. 28 up-passenger between ""«i"»»- Wallerawang and Bowenfels is 31 miles an hour. The next case occurred about midnight last Sundav, the 12th instant, when engine No. 449 (passenger), after having worked the up-mail train from Dubbo to Bathurst, was, upon examination by the driver, Beverley, after reaching the shed, found to have the third tender tire on the right-hand side broken. This tire had not left the wheel, and had only just broken, as the tire bolts were found lying close by. There have been two oases of stoppage of Baldwin engines in Bathurst, which may wrongly have been attributed to breakage of tires; Their defects were as follows :— One instance is that of engine 452, which was booked up to work the up-mail from Bathurst on the 7th instant, but during the day it was found that one of the tender wheels was loose on the axle. Nothing was wrong with the tire. This, however, rendered it necessary that the engine should be stopped, and another engine sent with the mail. The other instance is that of engine 450, which was discovered last week to have one tender wheel loose on the axle, and therefore could not be sent with the train until the wheels were changed. 9011 . President.] I miglit mention to you that at a meeting we held last night, this very point Was considered. Of course we were not in a position then to dictate to the Commissioners what should be done, but we were I think pretty well agreed that it would be a wise step if the engines were to some extent withdrawii from service until they had been thoroughly tested. 9012. Mr. Brown.'] "We came to the conclusion that you should remove the wheels and axles, and submit them to a proper test before you allowed them to run again. That was part of the Commissioners' decision last night, and it will be a part of their recommendations. 9013. Mr. Smith.] There is another little matter. Mr. Thow has stated that the tires were made by a good manufacturer. The specifications says that they were to be made by the Standard Company of America, and I understand that a tire made by the Standard Company means a tire made up to their test, which is a very severe one. A Standard Company's tire means" not merely a tire made by the Standard Company, but a tire that has been submitted to a certain test provided by the company, just as Vicar's steel, or Otis steel, or B.P.B. steel means steel of a guaranteed quality. 9014. Mr. Royle]. I understand from what Mr. Smith says, that it is intended to put on new axles and wheels. I also understand that it is the English type of wheel and axle that is going to be placed in the engines when these have been removed and that these wheels and axles are not going on again. Q(>15. Mr. Smith.] Not until they have been tested. Thosenothrokenwillprobablybe sent back to America. If they are found to be unsatisfactory, the Railway Commissioners will return them to the Baldwin Company. Hitherto the Baldwin Company have never made the slightest objection to making good any loss that has occurred through an error on their part, and I might say that there are ninety-one Ibco- inotives in the Tramway Department all made by them, and that not a single one of the tires (and all of them were made by the Standard Company) have shown the slightest indication of giving way. I think I am right, Mr. Thow ? Tes. 9016. Mr. Smith.] Further than that, none of the old Consolidation engines which have been in use for so many years have given any trouble by reason of defective workmanship or material in the tires. 9017. Mr. Hoyle.] One, broke. 9018. Mr. Smith!] Well, I did not know that even one of them had broken. And what I want to point dut is this, that it seems very strange as the tires had given such satisfaction in the past, in connection with the tramway^ motors, and the old Consolidation eilgines, they should hare given trouble Tvhen inanu- faistuSed fW a more highly-fitiished machine. 9019. Mr Broion.] I would_ just like to read to you one paragraph from the report— a paragraph upon which the Commission decided last night : " The Commission further recommends, inasmuch as certain of the axles and ■wheels have not yet been submitted to any test, that in the interests of the travelling public steps should be taken immediately to have a thorough examiiiation made by the drop and hydraulic tests of the axles and wheels which have not yet been tested, and in the meantime all the Baldwin engines be Withdrawn ff om pasSebger traffic and that they be employed upon goods traffic for a reasoiiable'period, until it has been demonstrated, as far as it can be conclusively, that thete is no liability of further accident by the bteakage of the axles or the loosening of the tires." It is somewhat singular that the Commissioii should have come to that conclusion last night, in the face of the announcement that you have made to- day with regard to the intention of the Railway Commissioners. 9020. Mr. Smith.] Tes ; I should like to explain that inasmuch as the engines were required to keep time, and to avert the inconvenience' of much delay in the traffic, they were not taken oft the line, but •Were merely fitted with other wheels and axles, and have now iiearly all been restored to service. I believe that is right, Mr. Thow ? 9021. Mr. Thow.] Tes ; they are being replaced. I should like to explain. The laSt breakage of a tire occurred on the l^th instant. Immediately after that — on~the 13th instant — a meeting was held betweeU the Cotamissioners, and one or two of their officers, including myself, and it was at that meeting decided that in order to give the public a feeling of security, the whole of the tires under the tenders should he withdrawn from passenger traffic, and as soon as possible they should be replaced by tires which We had greater coUfidence in. As soon as those tires have been changed, or I should say as soon as the wheels and tires have been changed, and English made tires and wheels put under the tenders of the Baldwin engines, then the engines will be returfled to traffic. At present they are not doing any work whatever, hiit they will be returned, and we shall make the change as quickly as possible, probably at the end of liext week, or very soon afterwards. The whole of the passenger engines, and one or two of the Consolidation engines— certainly one of them— Will then have had^the Whole of their tires changed, and they will consequeiltly be employed ib the running of trains again, whether upon goods or passenger trains I am not at present in a position to say. 9022. President.] But have any of the tires of the engine wheels given aWay ? I do not kUow that any of the engine tires have broken ; I have not heard of any brealdUg. One wheel came off-rgot loose on the axle— but that is the only defect that I am aware of in connection with the engine wheels. 9028. Professor Warren.] Ton have then a great many of the tires taken off these engines and lying at Eedfem? Wo'; We are taking off the origiUal tire, wheels, and axles, and putting in new tires, new wheels, and new axles, so that we have not taken the tires off the wheels. . _ 9024. No ; there are twenty Consolidation and twelve passenger engines, that is thirty-two engines altogether, and there are ten wheels under each engine, I want to get at the number of tires ? Ton have eight tires under each tender and ten tires under each engine— eighteen under eadh machine. 9025. Then there are 576 tires altogether to be considered ?■ Tes. 9026. 800 BAIDWIH LOCOMOTITES IKQT7IET COMMISSION— MINUTES OP I,TrDENCE. Mr. 9026. I think the usual practice is to take one in fifty for the purposes of testing, hut one in 100 would liT^ be sufficient for all practical purposes ? One per cent, is the usual thing. ITJuM^a. 9027. That would practically be six tires then. Do you think that would he too many to test ? I think ' ^ you would be in a better position after you have tested the tire that is broken. That is the way that I would go about it. 9028. And those will be ready by Tuesday ? Yes ; I think so. 9029. What would you consider to be the tensile strength and the elongation and contraction of area that tire steel ought to stand ? Well, perhaps I had better hand in my own Specification for tires. This gives the drop test and the tensile strength :— " The tire selected for test is to be placed in a vertical position without being annealed, reheated, or otherwise manipulated for test purposes, on a solid, metal foundation of at least 10 tons, and subjected to repeated blows trom a 1-ton tup falling from a height of 10, 15, 20, and 25 feet or upwards, and' it must be flattened at least one-sixth of its diameter without showiag any signs of fracture." 9030. Mr. Smith.'] What do you put the tensile strain at ? Forty-five tq 52 tons. 9031. Frofessor Warren (to Mr. Smith).] Will you supply me with the tests of the Standard Company. It will be interesting to have a specification of the test to which the Standard Company subject their tires ? 9032. I'resident.'] Mr. Thow tells us now, that the tires about which there is any doubt are not running, and will not be running again until they are tested ? 9033. Witness.] There are a few running on goods trains, but not on passenger trains. 9034. President.] But the same danger does not exist in thfe case of goods traius ? No ; I do not think there need be any anxiety whatever about the tires when the engines are employed in goods traffic, because it is very unusual for that kind of accident to happen. The tire that broke so recently had become so loose on the wheels that it was pushed by the pressure of the rail inwards towards the axle. The flange of the tire was gradually pushed off the wheel on to the axle, and became a loose ring there. 9035. Frofessor Warren.] How many wheels do you know of that have worked loose on their axles ? I cannot give you the exact number, but I should fancy a dozen or fifteen. 9036. As many as that ; but what you are going to do with the tires will not affect that question? We are going to put under the engines new axles, new wheels, and new tires. 9037. President.] In point of fact, the whole undercarriage, if one might use that word in connection with locomotives, is to be new ? Only so far as the wheels, tires, and axles are concerned. The carriage proper is available, and new wheels will be fitted to it. 9038. Frofessor Warren.] I do not think there is any necessity to ask Mr. Thow further questions. Will you let me have the test pieces as quickly as possible, Mr. Thow ? Tes. 9089. Mr. Frown (to Mr. Hoyle.)] I do not know that it will be necessary for you to ask any questions as this evidence has been called by the Commission purely for their own information. 9040. Mr. Soyle.] Very well. I do not think there is anything that I want to ask questions about from Mr. Thow. 9041. Mr. Smith (to Witness).] Why were you not able to get all the test pieces ready before this, Mr. Thow. Perhaps it would be as well for you, merely as a matter of explanation, to tell the Commission ? On account of the steel being so hard. We have been working upon this particular tire, endeavouring to get the test pieces prepared, for the last three or four days, but the steel is so hard that the machines will not make any progress with it. 9042. Mr. Smith.] Thank you. I merely wanted to get the reason for the delay on record. 9043. Fresident.] If you want to ask any questions, Mr. Hoyle, you had certainly better do so, because something may come out as the result of your examination of the witness that has not transpired from any questions that have been asked by us. 9044. Mr. Soyle.] Well, I might just ask whether the tires on the tramway motors are not of English steel ? Tes. I think they are made by Vickers. 9045. The tires of the tramway motors are of English make — ^Vickers, I believe? Tes; I believe they are. 9046. There was a tire broken ^t Bathurst since the one you referred to broke at Narrangaroo ? Tes ; that woiild be the one that I referred to as happening on the 12th. 9047. Did it come off or did it break ? It broke in the yard after the engine came in with its train, because after the tire was broken the bolts holding the tire were found by the broken pieces. It was evidently broken by being subjected to too great a tension. Of course, when a tire is running it gets hot, and when it stops it contracts, and I have no doubt that that tire broke as the result of contraction conse- quent upon cooling, showing also that the material was exceedingly hard, I subjected one to a test this morning. On that occasion I took the tire off the opposite wheel to that which broke at Bowenfels, and tried it under the drop-test. It stood two blows, one of a ton at any rate falling 6 feet, and the other a ton weight faUing 10 reet, and it broke under the 10-foot blow. 9048. Mr. Brown.'\ And what ought it stand ? It ought not to break at all. It ought to bendj not break. Our test requires such tires as we are dealing with to be bent one-sixth of their original diameter, so that if a tire is 24 inches in diameter it would have to bend 4 inches before it was passed as a good tire. The first blow of 6 feet bent this tire a quarter of an inch, which was a very small amount indeed, and the second blow broke it. Erom appearances, I should say that it broke simply because it w&s very hard steel. I do not say that the steel was bad quality steel, but it was very hard steel. 9049.. Fresident.] It would not be good steel for tires ? No ; certainly not. Ton must have a certain elasticity and a certain softness in the tire. The test that we specify is as follows : — " The tire selected for test is to be placed in a vertical position, without being annealed, reheated, or otherwise manipulated for test purposes on a solid metal foundation of at least 10 tons, and subjected to repeated blows from a 1-ton tup, falling from a height of 10, 15, 20, and 25 feet, or upwards, and it must be flattened at least one-sixtn of its diameter without showing any sign of fracture." 9050. Mr. Smith.] There are two other witnesses, but I do not think they can give any evidence upon this matter. They are the driver of the engine No. 448, which broke the tire, and the locomotive foreman of the district, but they cannot, for the purpose of this inquiry, give any evidence at all of value. The principal thing is to test the tires, and no evidence that persons who have merely looked at it could give would be of any use whatever, would it, Professor Warren ? 9051. Frofessor Warren.] Not the slightest, 9052. BALDWIN LOCOMOTITES INQriEY COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 30J 9052. Mr. Smith.'] The only evidence worth having now is the evidence as to how it worked. That shows Mr. that it was hard, and the evidence that Mr. Thow has given also shows that it is hard, because it broke ^ ' a ^ ' with a blow of 1 ton falling 10 feet, and the evidence you require in addition to that is the result of 17 j" ioqo the test. - _ _ ""*' 9053. Mr. Srown.'] The action of the Eailway Commissioners in having taken the wheels, tires, and axles ofi the engines used in the passenger trafSc has changed the aspect of the whole thing. As far as I am concerned, I do not want to ask any more questions. 9054. Mr. Smith.'] Professor "Warren has referred to the return of broken rails for which he asked. I wish to explain how it is he has not received that return before. The practice is to remove from the line all crippled rails, and to keep a return of them, but not to specify how many of them were actually broken. As a matter of fact, I had occasion to look up the returns in the case of the late Tarana accident, and I found them utterly valueless for my purpose, because they included all the crippled rails, 9055. Professor Warren.'] Now I quite understand what you mean, Mr. Smith. 9056. Mr. Smith.] The returns will not be very useful to you even when complete, because the rails are constantly getting older, and are being replaced by other rails. A return of the kind you ask for dealing with the later rails would be reliable, but not returns as old as two years ago, I do not know whether the Commission has seen Mr. Price Williams' report. 9057. Mr. Soyle.] Tes. It has been put in evidence. 9058. Mr. Smith.] Mr. Price Williams, in his report, dealt with the very subject, speaking of the G-oulburn line, and another important matter was this, that after the reballasting and boxing up of the line, necessarily there was a large number of crippled rails to take out. 9059. Professor Warren.] Tes ; I see that. The crippled rails would then be brought to light. 9060. Mr. Smith.] At all events, the information the Commissioners ask for will be furnished. 9061. Professor Warren.] If I have to give evidence on the test, and can get the test pieces on Tuesday, I shall be able to run over them by Wednesday. 9062. Mr. Smith.] What about the Glenlee bridge ? 9063. Professor Warren.] I have written the report, and intend to put it in evidence, and I thought of treating the axles in the same way. 9064. Mr. Smith.] I suppose the report on the G-lenlee Bridge is not ready yet ? 9065. Professor Warren.] Tes ; it is ready, but that is all. I do not know whether I can disclose it. 9066. Mr. Smith.] I dare say that I shall be able to let the Secretary have the other particulars on Monday. APPENDIX. 302 APPENDIX. CoBBESPONDBNCB re Purchase of Baldwin Engines. Twelve 10- Wheeled Passenger Engines, 1890. lii- donsequence of the period of time that would elapse before delivery could be given of engines ordered from Eriglaiid, the Commissioners, after consultations with their officers, found it absolutely necessary that iinmediate Steps should be taken to secure engine power to prevent the traffic in the wool season of 1890-1891 from being seriously hampered. Information being to hand that in the United States, where the conditions in many respects resemble the conditions on our lines, a new departure in engines has been tried with mt)st satisfactory results, the Commissioners decided to instruct Mr. D. H. Neale (Mechanical Engineer), Messrs. Loiighry and Stanger (our Out-Door Locomotive Superintendents), and Mr. Howe (workshops maiia|er), to report in the matter of the merits of the 10- wheeled American Express engines and 8-wheel consolidated good engines. Their report and other correspondence, &c., in connection with the ordering of the Baldwin engines, are appended. PtJECHASE of American Passenger Engines — Joint Eeport of Messrs. Loughry, Stanger, Howe, and Neale. To the Eailway Commissioners, — Gentlemen, _ 1 September, 1890. After carefully considering this question as requested, and in view of the urgent necessity for more locomotives, we are unanimously of the opinion that it would be advisable to purchase not less than twelve powerful American passenger engines, provided that the builders can guarantee early delivery. The Eogers engine for the Chesapeake and Ohio (as illustrated in the BailroaA Journal for July, 1890) and the Baldwin Engine for the Baltimore and Ohio (described in ^QRailroaA Gazette, 13 June, 1890), both appear suitable and sufficiently powerful for our requirements, viz., hauling a train of four express carriages fully loaded, and two 28-ton sleeping cars up 1 in 40 at 25 miles per hour, and capable of attaining an average speed (including stoppages) of 32 miles per hour between, say, Groulburn and Junee, where there are constant undulating gradients of 1 in 40. •' The engines require, however, the following modifications : — Our coal being good the grate area might be somewhat reduced, lessening the weight on each driving axle to not exceed 14f gross tons or 32,500 lb. Our water being bad, the fire box should be copper and the tubes brass. No bell is required. Hand-brakes and Westinghouse automatic are wanted on all driving and on all tender wheels. Screw reversing gear is wanted. Trailing sand- pipes behind rear driving-wheels are wanted. The sand-boxes would be preferred on or under the footplate instead of on top of boiler. Bushes are preferred on coupling-rods. The connecting-rod would be preferred with adjusting cotters and split brasses as usual, but without straps. The capacity of the tender should not be less than 3,600 American gallons. The gauge of road is 4 ft. 8^ in. The extreme height of chimney should not exceed 13 ft. 6 in. The extreme width of engine should not exceed 9 ft. 6 in., and if possible should not exceed 9 ft. 3 in. Particular care should be taken that all bearings of importance should have good oil-cups or cellars, capable of holding a proper worsted syphon or other efficient means of feeding oil. All oil-cups should have proper covei-s, well seoiifed",' and "'dust "proof, as our line is very dusty, and hot bearings very common. The workmanship throughout should be extra good, especially in boiler-work and in the smith- work of rods and frames. The engine and tender should be fitted with the European style of cover buffers and draw-hook. The latter should stand a breaking-strain of not less than 100,000 lb. The pilot or cow-catcher should be arranged to suit the use of these buffers. An ample supply of spare parts should be included, so that delay may be avoided in replacing parts damaged by accident. It is presumed that these engines referred to, being for American trunk lines, and used in hauling their most important trains over the most trying parts of their systems, that the details of the engines (not before us) are in every respect first-class, and representative of the best American practice. That being the case, it would be safe to adhere to the other details of the engine as made for the American railways. Both Baldwin and Eogers are excellent makers. The former firm have made many of our present engines, and therefore know many of Our requirements, their travelling partner. Dr. Williams, having lived here for some time. The latter firm also do an export business, and are thought by some to turn out better finished work. These engines would be especially useful between Penrith and Bathurst and between Picton and Junee, and might also be used on Northern Line on the long inclines between Tamworth and Armidale. They would save a great deal of assisting mileage, and twelve such engines would virtually do the work of over twenty of the best of our present passenger engines. "We, remain, Ac, H. D. NEALE, (Eor H. HOWE), E. A. LOTJGHET, G. H. STANGEE, ' and Self. Sirs, APPENDIX. 303 New South Wales Grovernment Eailways, Sirs, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 2 September, 1890. The Commissioners would be glad if you would quote a price for twelve engines, delivered in steam in Sydney, exactly similar to those constructed by the Baldwin Locomotive Works for the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad Company, and described in the Railroad Gazette of 13th June, 1890, with the following modifications : — Our coal being good, the grate area might be somewhat reduced, lessening the weight on each driving-axle to not exceed 14^ gross tons, or 32,500 lb. Our water being bad, the fire-box should be copper and the tubes brass. JSo bell is required. Hand-brakes and .Westinghouse automatic are wanted on all driving and on all tender-wheels. Screw reversing gear is wanted. Trailing sand-pipes behind rear driving-wheels are wanted. The sand-boxes would be preferred on or under foot-plate instead of on top of boiler. Bushes are preferred on coupling-rods. The connecting-rod would be preferred with adjusting cotters and split brasses as usual, but without straps. The capacity of the tender should not be less than 3,600 American gallons. The gauge of road is 4 feet Si inches. The extreme height of chimney should not exceed 13 feet 6 inches. The extreme width of engine should not exceed 9 feet 6 inches, and if possible should not exceed 9 feet 3 inches. Particular care should be taken that all bearings of importance should have good oil-cups or cellars, capable of holding proper worsted syphon or other efficient means of feeding oil. All oil-cups should have proper covers, well secured and dustproof, as our line is very dusty and hot bearings very common. The workmanship throughout should be extra good, especially in boiler- work and in the smith-work of rods and frames. The engine and tender should be fitted with the European style of corner buffers and draw-hook. The latter should stand a breakirig strain of not less than 100,000 lb. The pilot or cow-catcher • should be arranged to suit the use of these buffers. An ample supply of spare parts should be included, so that delay may be avoided in replacing parts damaged by accident. The Commissioners would, of course, allow you any shop facilities for erecting the engines, but would require you to send out a man to erect them and put them in steam. Early delivery is very essential, and will be an important factor in placing the order. I have, &c., H. McLACHLAN, Messrs. Towns & Co., Sydney. Secretary. There is some little doubt whether we can allow you anything beyond 9 feet 3 inches for the extreme width of the engines, but the matter is being inquired into, and you could cable your principals definitely on this point before the letter could reach them. It would be well if you arranged a code on this point and enclosed it in the letter. . The Commissioner for Railways, Sydney, — Gentlemen, Sydney, 8 September, 1890. Immediately after our Mr. Stokes' interview, of 2nd instant, with Mr. Eddy, we forwarded follovring cable to the Baldwin Company : — " Eeply by wire quickly price and earliest date delivery approximately, in steam, at Eedfem, twelve " passengers, similar to Baltimore and Ohio ten-wheeled express, copper fire boxes, despatch urgent." And have just received following reply : — "$15,000 each, including steel boiler, copper fire-boxes, iron tubes, wheel, hand-brake on tender, Westing- . " house automatic on drivers and tender, tender and truck wheels with steel tyres, buffers, English, "free on board steamer, Eedfern extra. If screw reversing gear, $75;, copper stay bolts, $540; " brass tubes, $1,650 ; shipment five months." Trom this you will see that the offer is free on board steamer. The time mentioned " five mopths" will, we hope, be within your idea of despatch. I have, &c., ^ ^ E. TOWNS & CO. New South Wales Government Eailways, Gentlemen Secretary's Office, Sydney, 9 September, 1890. Eef erring to your letter of yesterday's date, I am directed to say that the Eailway Com- missioners are disposed to consider favourably Messrs. Baldwin's offer to supply twelye 10-wheeled express passenger engines as contained in your letter, but I have to call your attention to the fact that m my letter of the 2nd instant, I asked that the engines might be modified and reduced m weight by lessening the grate area. This would decrease the cost somewhat, atid the Commissioners presume tha,t it would be allowed for by the Baldwin Company. I have also to call your attention to the extreme width of the engine. This is a very important point, and it is thought that the width of the engine could be kept down to the figure given without making any serious alteration. The offer of the Baldwin Company does not include a hand-brake on the engine, but I presume there would be no difficulty about this. The Commissioners would like to understand whether the price ij-r. I presume you have forwarded a copy of my letter, of the 2nd instant, to the Baldwin Company, but should be glad to hear definitely from you upon this point, and on the other points raised in this letter, before the Commissioners decide definitely upon giving the order. j ^i. j. xi,- j -f I need hardly remind you that early delivery is of extreme importance, and that this order if given, will be a trial one based on the understanding that the endues will perform the heavy work needed on our very severe gradients, and can be deUvered f. o. b., New York, early m lebruary, and be m steam ere ^^^^P"^^^;^^^.^'^.^^^^^ ^^^1^ ^^ gl^^ jf yo^ eould also quote an inclusive price, delivered in steam here, and subject to the conditions in my letter of the 2nd instant. i ^^ve, «c., Messrs. E. Towns & Co., Sydney. ; H. McLACHLAN The so* APPENDIX. The Commissioners for Eailways, &c., Sydney,— Gentlemen, Sydney, 9 September, 1890. "We have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your favour of this date, and have despatched following cable to Baldwin Company : — " Eeduce weight to 32,500 lb. per axle by reducing grate area, allowance expected for reduced "weight. Screw hand-brake on tender and drivers, Westinghouse air on drivers and tender. Width " over all, 9 feet 3 inches. Offer includes an engineer. Must supervise erection and trial. Commis- "sioners desire alternative offer to deliver on shore at destination of vessel. Must have immediate "reply." We shall communicate with you immediately reply is received. We have, &e., K. TOWNS & CO. The Commissioners for Eailways, Sydney, — Gentlemen, Sydney, 11th September, 1890. The following cable has reached us from the Baldwin Locomotive Co. : — " Are working freight, wait advices," The Company is endeavouring to secure the best terms for freight in the Locos., and it is very probable that in the course of the day we may receive a cable giving full particulars. We remain, &c., E. TOWNS & CO. The Commissioners for Eailways, &c., Sydney, — Dear Sirs, Sydney, 16 September, 1890. We have just received following cable from the Baldwin Company in reply to ours, of which you have copy: — " Price will be 13,500 dollars, f .o.b., New York, in Tebruary. Screw hand-brake on tender and drivers. Westinghouse air on tender and drivers. An engineer must supervise erection trial. Expecting figures steamer delivery." Tou will see that they have met your wishes as to modification in price. We shall no doubt receive the alternative offer in a few days. Tours, &c., E. TOWNS & CO, Accept.— E.M.G.E., CO., 17/9/90. Se Locomotives. The Commissioners for Eailways, Sydney, — Dear Sirs, Sydney, 20 September, 1890. As requested by Mr. Neale, we yesterday cabled the Baldwin Company as follows : — " Commissioners will accept. Proceed with work as per telegram. Letter will give further detail. Waiting alternative offer," and have just received following reply : — " Order entered for twelve, try to increase order to eighteen or twenty, full steamer load. Contract to deliver f o.b. at destination of vessel (i.e. Sydney), $14,800 ; contract to deliver on shore at Sydney, $15,000." This cable is, we think, sufiBciently explicit. We shall be glad to wait upon you if desired. Tours, &c., E. TOWNS & CO. Government Eailways of New South Wales, Gentlemen, _ Secretary's OflSce, Sydney, 22 September, 1890. I am directed by the Eailway Commissioners to inform you that they accept the offer of the Baldwin locomotive works, to supply twelve 10- wheeled express engines and tenders similar to those recently supplied to the Baltimore and Ohio Eailway under a guarantee to haul a passenger train of seven cars up a grade of 116 feet per mile, and 17 miles long at a speed of 25 miles per hour. The price of these engines modified as under to be $15,000 landed at wharf, Sydney, April, 1891, copper fire-boxes, screw hand brakes on both engine and tender, Westinghouse automatic on engine- drivers and on all tender wheels. Grate area to be reduced so that weight on each driving axle is about 32,500 lb. The Baldwin Company to send out a competent engineer to supervise the erection of these engines, but the Commissioners will supply labour, and shop, and crane accommodation. All wheels, engine, and tender, to have steel-tires, boiler to be of steel, no bell is required. Trailing, sand-boxes, and pipes behind rear drivers are wanted. All sand-boxes on or under foot-plate instead of on top of boiler. English style buffers, and draw-hook on front of engine and back of tender. Bushes on coupling-rods. Connecting rod would be preferred vrith split brasses and cotters as usual, but without straps. The capacity of the tender should not be less than 3,600 American gallons. A tender interchangeable with those supplied in 1885 for passenger Mogul engines preferred. The gauge of road is 4 feet 8^ inches. The extreme height of chimney from rails should not exceed 13 feet 6 inches. The extreme width of engine should not exceed 9 feet 3 inches. Particular care should be taken that all bearings of importance should have good oil-cups or cellars capable of holding proper worsted syphon or other efficient means of feeding oil. All oil-cups should have proper covers, well secured, and dust-proof, as our line is very dusty, and hot bearings very common. The workmanship throughout should be extra good, especially in boiler- work, and in the smith- work of rods and frames. An ample supply of spare parts should be included, so that delay may be avoided in replacing parts damaged by accident. A list of these parts will be forwarded to the Baldwin works by an early mail, for which a CI,!", quotaption is requested by cable. The APPENDIX. 305 The prices quoted for the following extras are agreed to :— Copper fire-box stays, 540 dollars • screw reversmg-gear, 75 dollars ; brass tjubes, 1,650 dollars. The Commissioners will forward by next mail blue priiits of the following parts as a gdde to the Baldwin works |-(1) drawhook ; (2) Turton buffer; (3) cylinder flange ; (4) connecting rod-end • (5) contour of tire. o ^ / o > ■ X ^ml'^fi'^^^'^ works are requested to work exactly to the dimensions of the first and second blue prints. Ihe third ismtended as a means of flattening the cylinder-flange, so as to keep the engine within . the limrts of width without narrowing the centres of the cylinders, and, therefore, shortening the crank-pins Ihe Jdaldwm works are, however, at liberty to obtain the same end by any other means they con- sider preferable. ■< j j The connecting rod end shows a form that works well here, and one of similar design would be pre- ferred to the strap end usual in the United States. The blue print shows an end for an engine with 18 in cylinders and 150 lb. boiler pressure, and the dimensions would require modification for the larger cylinders, and higher pressure of the present engine. The contour of the tire should be worked to exactly for all tires with flanges" t er mile ''^^^* ''"''^^ ""^ °'^'" '^°^'^ '^ ^^^ *®^* ''^'^™^ '-'^^"''^^ ^^ degrees). The steepest grade is 176 f 1 on I* 'f P^P"?^^ *° l'?"^ ^i* this engine trains weighing 152 gross tons (340,500 lb.) up long grades of 130 feet per mile. This would be the usual train, and we expect it to be hauled up this grade at about 22 miles per hour Occasionally the train would have an additional car, making the load without engine and tender I7b tons or 394,240 lb. These loads include a full complement of passengers, mail, and baggage. The cars are all on trucks or bogies. r & > . The regular load up the 176-feet grades would be 120 gross tons (269,000 lb.) without engine or tender. These grades are free from very sharp curves, and, therefore, in practice a greater proportionate load can be hauled than on the 180 feet grades. It is therefore expected that occasionally an extra car could be hauled, making the total weight of the train 144 gross tons (322,500 lb.) without engine or The Commissioners would be glad to have your guarantee that your engines can perform this work Ihe engines should have brick arches in fire-box. ^ • , i;"^?®^^.^^ headlights and pilots or cow-catchers have not been hitherto used on our lines, but the trial otthe latter is contemplated, and therefore we should be glad to have iron-pilot or cow-catchers on the engine you furnish, but headlights will not be required. J.X. ■ J ^^® Commissions regret that their urgent need of these engines prevents a further examination of their design, but trust the Baldwin works will do their best to supply thoroughly efficient and serviceable pngines, which shall do credit to the builders. I have. &c., H. McLACHLAN, ] — Secretary. i?e Locomotives. The Commissioners for Eailways, Sydney, — ^ear Sirs, Sydney, 24 September, 1890. We have the honour to acknowledge your letter of the 22nd instant. Immediately on receipt of same copy was forwarded to the Baldwin Company, we also cabled to them as follows :-^ "Commissioners have accepted offer of twelve locomotives landed at Sydney 15,000 dollars." The mail via San Francisco will leave Sydney on 1st October, and we shall be very pleased to forward any documents or particulars which you may desire to send. Terms of payment will, we presume, be as usual, i.e., 85 per cent., to be paid on shipment by credit on Agent-G-eneral, London, balance on delivery, Sydney. We remain, &c., E. TOWNS & CO. New South Wales Government Eailways, Sir, _ _ Secretary's Office, Sydney, 1 October, 1890. I enclose you herewith six tracings referred to in my letter to Messrs. E. Towns & Co., of this city, of the 22nd ultimo, and in accordance therewith would wish you to work exactly to the tracings of the draw hook and contour of tires. I should be glad if you would follow as closely as possible the Turton buffer, which is our standard, and which is a well-known article of commerce, and which you. doubtless can procure from Sheffield (England), where they are made in large quantities. The con- necting rod ends we send you have been found to work very well in practice, and we would like something of the same style, but larger dimensions to suit the increased size of cylinder and higher pressure. Those we send you are used for engines with 18-inch cylinders and 140 lb. pressure, and have been running for a good many years. The tracing showing the cylinder flange is a method which has suggested itself as a means to keep the extreme width of the engine within the 9 feet 3 inches limit ; if, however, you can carry out a pre- ferable plan to effect the same object without reducing the distance apart of the centres of the cylinders, and so shortening the crank pins, I shall be glad if you will do it. _Tou will, of course, readily understand that we wish good bearing surfaces, and would prefer flattening the flange in some way to shortening the crank pins. I have, &c., PI. McLACHLAN, -^ Secretary (per A. P.) The Manager the Baldwin Locomotive Works, Baldwin Locomotive "Works, Burnham, Parry, Williams, & Co., Philadelphia, 4 November, 180O. Mr. H. McLachlan, Secretary Grovernment Eailways, New South Wales, Sydney, Australia, — Dear Sir, We acknowledge receipt of your Talued favour of October 1st, together with six drawings showing respectively the buffers, draw-bars, section of tires, styles of main rod ends, and method sug- gested of reducing the width over the cylinders of the twelve ten-wheel passenger locomotives which we are to build for your railways. We will be governed by your wishes as expressed by these drawings. We • regret that it is necessary to restrict the width of the engine within a limit of 9 feet 3 inches, as we fear 6—2 Q . it 306 APPENDIX, it will considerably interfere witli tlie convenience of tHe enginemen. We will, however, make the most desiratle arrangement practicable. "We note your desire to avoid shortening the cranb-pins, and we will- take care to provide ample bearing surfaces with efficient means of lubrication. Tours, &c., BUENHAM, PAEEY, WILLIAMS, & CO. (A. S. JOHlfSOlf). Government Eailways of Kew South Wales, Gentlemen, Secretp,ry's Office, Sydney, 19 December, 1890. Eeferring to your letter of the 4th ultimo respecting the restriction of the width of the engine within a limit of 9ft. 3in., I have the honor to confirm cablegram sent to you on the same subject, viz., that the 9ft. Sin. only refers to a height of 5ft. from the ground, above that the extreme width may be 9ft. 6in. I have, &c., H. McLACHLAN, Secretary. Messrs. Eurnham, Parry, Williams, and Co., Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philadelphia, U.S.A. Baldwin Locomotive Works, Burnham, Parry, Williams, and Co., Philadelphia, 10 October, 1890. Messrs. E. Towns & Co., Sydney, New South Wales, — Gentlemen, Tour two favours of September 2nd are to hand, together with the letter of same date from Mr, McLachlan, Secretary for Eailways, communicating the Government's requirements for twelve ten-wheel passenger locomotives similar to those built by us for the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad Company, and mentioned on page 420 of the Railroad Oazette of June 13 last. Before receiving these letters we have been in communication with you by wire, having duly received your messages of September 2nd, 9th, 19th, 22nd, and two of 23rd, and replied to same September 5th, 15th and 19th, all as per copies enclosed. We observe that your message of September 2nd was sent specifying delivery " in steam, Eedfern," whilst it was delivered to us "in steamer Eedfern." We presumed, an offer was desired including delivery f.o.b. Sydney by steamer, the word in being used as less likely to be misunderstood or altered in transmission than f.o.b. We presume our reply of September 5th made this clear. Basing our estimates on Dr. Williams' experience with the engines shipped per " Niobe " in 1879, we are willing to undertake the erection under steam at 300 dollars each, exclusive of cost of shop space. The propositions cabled you for these engines have been as follows : — Engines like those for the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad, page 420, Railroad Gazette, 13th June last, but with copper fire-box, iron flues, hand brake, and Westinghouse automatic brake on drivers and. tender, steel-tired truck and tender wheels and spring buffers, f.o.b. steamer at Sydney, each 15,000 dollars, or if delivered f.o.b. in New Tork, 13,500 dollars ; additional for screw reverse gear, each, 76 dollars ; copper stay -belts, if required, 540 dollars ; for dis'charging at Sydney, if required, 200 dollars ; brass tubes, if required, 1,650 dollars ; deduct if weight is reduced to 32,500 lb. per axle each engine, 200 dollars. Enclosed please find specification No. 5,173, which was prepared before receipt of your message limiting the weight. It describes engines of the same dimensions as those furnished the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad, but owing to the change of copper fire-box the weight is somewhat greater than the B. and O. engines. The proposed reduction of weight per axle, will, we fear, cause disappointment in the performance of the engines. We judge the same work is expected of them as that stated in the Railroad Gazette as being performed by the Baltimore and Ohio engines. It should be fully understood that their efficiency will be correspondingly reduced. As we understand that the permanent way of the New South Wales railways is of a much more substantial character than the Baltimore and Ohio railroad, we see no reason why the engines built for the latter should not be adopted entire. We should be gratified if, on further consideration, this is decided upon. Since receipt of Mr. McLachlan's letter we have gone carefully over the details mentioned. We submit specification No. 5,231, of locomotives of the stipulated weight and details of construction. In preparing this design we have endeavoured to provide the maximum heating surface and interchange- ability where practicable with locomotives previously supplied by us to your railways. With reference to the suggestion of the reduction of the grate area, as the Railroad Gazette contains no detailed descrip- tion of the Baltimore and Ohio engine, it occurs to us that the railway authorities have based their conclusions upon the drawings published in the same paper, of a 10-wheel passenger locomotive for the New Tork, Lake Erie, and Western Eailroad. We explain that the latter was designed for burning anthracite coal, which requires a specially large and rather shallow grate. The furnace was therefore made 11 feet long, and placed over the frames, giving an inside width of nearly 43 inches. The B. and O. engine, on the contrary, was designed to burn the best quality of bituminous coal. It is generally considered that there is no coal produced in this country of better quality than that mined on the line of the B. and 0. E. E. As bituminous coal requires greater depth for proper combustion, we dropped the fire-box between the frames, making it 33 inches wide, and shortening it from 11 feet to 10 feet. We were at first disposed to think it too small, but further service confirmed the correctness of the dimensions adopted. As we believe it to be just right, we should regret to change it, and have not therefore altered it in preparing the enclosed specification. We fear difficulty in steaming with less grate area. To secure interchangeability with the Midelton Moguls, we propose driving-wheels 61 inches diam- eter. In consequence of this smaller diameter, and of the somewhat reduced weight, we propose making the cylinders 21 x 24, instead of 21 x 26 inches. This will give correct proportions of cylinder power to adhesion, with a boiler pressure of say 150 lb. TheB. and 0. engines carry 160 lb. ' The B. and 0. engines have their crown sheet supported by radial stay-bolts 1 inch diameter,: with upset ends, tapped through crown sheet and roof of boiler, and riveted over at both ends, care being taken to arch the sheets so as to have the bolts as nearly as possible at right angles to both sheets, as shown in the engraving of the N. Y. L. E. and W. locomotive, page 414 of the Railroad Gazette, June appendix;. 307 June IStli. We believe this to be the simplest and strongest construction, and adopt it without hesita- ,ti(in with steel fire-boxes. "With flre-boxes of copper, which expands at about double the rate of steel, we have had some doubts about using the radial stay-bolts, but these doubts have been removed by experi- ence with engines so constructed for the Dom Pedro Second railway of Brazil. Some fifteen years ago we built six Mogul locomotives for this road, with copper boxes and radial stays. We have repeatedly made inquiries as to the results which they have given. These are indicated by enclosed copy of a letter from Dr. Niemeyer, the locomotive superintendent. As there is a saving of about 4,0U0 lb. weight by this construction, as compared with crown bars, we propose adopting it. If this is not approved we win support the crown by crown bars without extra charge. The change if required will, however, involve either an increase of about 4,000 lb. to the weight of the engine, all of which will come on the driving- wheels, or a corresponding reduction in the dimensions and'capacity of the boiler. A method of decreasing the increased weight some 2,000 to 2,500 lb., if crown bars are desired, is to substitute wrought-iron for cast-iron driving-wheel centres. Their extra cost is estimated 100 dollars each, or 600 dollars per engine. We append code words for use in this connection. Our offer of steamer, delivery, and discharging, is based upon the following conditions, which, from consulting with Dr. Williams, we understand prevail at Sydney : — , 1. Steamer can discharge from ship's side to railway pier, where cars can come alongside to receive . cargo. 2. Sufficient water at discharging berth to lie safely in all times of tide. 3. Discharging berth to be immediately available on arrival of steamer, or demurrage to be at the expense of the G-overnment. 4. Cars to be tendered to receive cargo as fast as it can be discharged through all the steamers' hatches at the same time, and switching to be done promptly as required without cost to the ship. We understand the new railway piers at Eedfern have been completed, and that there is now a draw in the Pyrmont Bridge large enough for the passage of the largest steamers. The price of each engine as per enclosed specification No. 5,231 and as per our cable quotations recited above will be : — Cost of locomotive with steel boiler, copper fire-box, screw hand brake, and Westinghouse automatic brake on driving-wheels and tender, spring buffers, &c., but with iron tubes, iron stay-bolts, discharged at Sydney as above, each, 15,000 dollars; additional for screw reversing-gear, 73 dollars; brass tubes, 1,630 dollars ; price as per specification No. 5,231, 16,725 dollars. This price does not include duplicate parts other than the usual tools and accessories enumerated in the specifica- tion. We quote separately for such a supply as we presume may be required, prices for same including delivery, and being subject to the other condiiions of the locomotive contract. Our offer includes the services of a competent engineer to supervise the erection of the locomotives ; all necessary labour, tools, aud supplies being furnished by the Government, but no charge being made by us for his time or expenses. He will run each engine one or more trips on trial, to make sure that it is in efficient working order before being finally put into regular service. We trust a width of 9 ft. 6 in. over all can be allowed us, as suggested, as even this we fear will be difficult to work to where the diameter of the boiler is so large and a screw reverse is to be provided. We will adopt this width unless we are otherwise directed. We presume the terms of payment will be the same as in previous contracts viz. : 85 per cent, cash by the Agent- General in London, on production of shipping documents, and the, remaining 15 per cent, by the Colonial Treasurer, on arrival of the vessel carrying the locomotives. We also confirm the sale of fifteen motors, at 5,000 dollars each, delivered over ships' side at Sydney, terms of payment and other conditions as above. We understand these motors are to be duplicates of those shipped per " Luxor," in 1885, singled gear, with hollow crankpins. All rods, main and connecting, to have solid ends and bronze bushings, aud the axles to be made of steel. We await further instructions as to the axle-boxes as directed. As the figure which we accept for these motors is an exceptionally low one, in consequence of the large shipment we are enabled to make, and other special circumstances pre- vailing at this time, it should not be regarded as a precedent. Our prices for the same machines are likely to be higher in any new quotations. We expect to have the entire twenty-seven machines ready for shipment by the end of Tebruary, We are now chartering a steamer to begin loading at that time. We remain, &c., BUENHAM, PAERT, WILLIAMS, & CO. Messrs. Burnham, Parry, Williams, & Co., Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philidelphia,— Gentlemen Sio de Janeiro, 10 November, 1888. I just received to day, 7 a.m., your favour of 9th October, 1888. I thought I had replied about these questions when you asked me before, but I do it again now, and can give you assurance that the engines from No, 83 to 88, which had their fire-box crown sheets supported by radial stay-bolfa screwed and riveted, work very satisfactorily, as well as our others in usual manner. I remain, &c., CAELOS DE NIEMEYER. 17 November, 1890. Having carefully considered the specifications 5,173 and 5,231, enclosed in a letter from the Baldwin Locomotive Works to Messrs. E. Towns and Co., of Sydney, dated 10th October, 1890, 1 consider the engine in specification No. 5,231 would meet our requirements, with the following modifacations :— 1. Steam-ports made wider. 2. Boiler pressure increased from 150 to 160 lb. per square inch. , ..i . -n 3. Cast-steel driving-wheels adopted instead of wrought-iron, as suggested by the makers ; this will lighten the engine. . 4. The width over cab 9ft. 6in. over all, width over cylinders 9ft. 3in. over all. 5. Eadial stays adopted for fire-box, as suggested by the makers. 6. The boiler barrel preferred A in. thick instead of iin. According to the makers offer, the price delivered at Sydney would then be £3,557 each (117.325) or at the rate of £54 15s. per ton, which I consider very moderate. I estimate the engines would be fully equal in power to those recently ordered in England, and would haul five loaded lavatory carnages and' two 28-ton sleepers up a long gradient of 1 in 40 at 22 miles per hour. 308 APPENDIX. I would advise the Baldwin Locomotive Works be cabled to tbia effect : — " Approve 5,231, but steam-ports wider ; require bigb-speed boiler pressure ; 160 lb. plates nine- sixteenths cast steel drivers, width cab nine six, cylinders nine three." D. H. NEALE. I concur, — E. A, Lottghet. Government Eailways of New South "Wales, G-entlemen, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 18 November, 1890. Tour letter of the 15th November, together with the communication received by you from the Baldwin Company, have been laid before the Commissioners, and after considering the whole question, they will be glad if you will cable to the Baldwin Company to the following effect : — " Approve 5,231 ; high speed necessary ; steam-ports should be wider ; boiler pressure 160 lb. ; plates ft ; cast-steel drivers ; width over cylinders must not exceed 9 ft. 3 in. ; width of cab maybe 9 ft. 6 in. I have, &c., H. McLACHLAN, Messrs. E. Towns and Co., Margaret-street. Secretary. The Commissioners for Eailways, Sydney, — Dear Sirs, Sydney, 12 January, 1891 "We have the honor to enclose herewith letter received per mail just arrived from the Baldwin Locomotive Company, dated 20th November, the contents of which will, we trust, be satisfactory to you. Under date 28th November the Baldwin Company write in reference to locomotives : — " As we have already advised you, we are in excellent position to furnish prompt deliveries of these locomotives. "We are now completing a new erecting-shop, having trackage space for the simultaneous erection of sixty-five locomotives. This shop is fitted with two electric travelling cranes, each of 100 tons capacity. With their assistance we expect to be able to construct twenty-four locomotives per week, whilst the increased facilities, improved machinery, and superior light will enable us to improve the quality as well as the quantity of our work." We are, &c., — R. TOWNS & CO. [IEnclosure.'\ Baldwin Locomotive Works (Biirnham, Parry, Williams, & Co.), Philadelphia, 20 November, 1890. Messrs. E. Towns &■ Co., Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, via England. G-entlemen, We have received your message of the 18th instant, as follows : — " Government adhere to dimensions as specification 5,231, but modified as follows : — High speed necessary ; stea^n-ports should be wider ; boiler pressure, 160 lb. ; plates, nine-sixteenths. Government accepts offer to supply wrought iron driving-wheel centres of cast steel. Cylinders : — ■ Government will allow only 9 feet 3 inches for extreme width of cylinders, but cab allowed 9 feet 6 inches." We have accordingly entered the order of the Government for wrought iron driving-wheel centres at 1100 each wheel, or $600 each engine additional. We note that we are allowed a width of 9 feet 3 inches over cylinders and 9 feet 6 inches over cab. We will thicken the steel plates of the boiler shell to nine-sixteenths inch, as desired, and will make no additional charge therefor ; bnt we call attention to the fact that this involves adding about 1,500 lb. extra weight. Our specification. No. 5,231, was in error in proposing a waggon-top boiler. This error was merely clerical, the number of tubes and other ' dimensions being correctly stated for the straight-top boiler intended. The restricted limit of width makes it important to adhere to the straight form of boiler, as does the desirability of reducing the weight on each driving axle. The waggon-top boiler would throw a considerably larger proportion of the weight of the engine on the driving-wheels. We therefore assume that the straight-top boiler will be acceptable, and we are proceeding with work accordingly. We send this letter via England, hoping it may reach you before the next mail via San Erancisco. Verv truly yours, BUENHAM, PAKET, WILLIAMS, & CO., (Per A. B. Johjtsoit). To the Secretary -to the Eailway Commissioners,— Be Locomotives. Dear Sir, Sydney, 15 December, 1890. The following is extract from letter received by us this day from the Baldwin Locomotive Company. We forward same for your information : — " We have carefully considered the conditions of service for which these locomotives are intended, " viz., to haul 152 to 176 gross tons of cars and load at a speed of 22 miles per hour up long grades " of 136 feet per mile combined with severe curvature, and to haul up grades of 176 feet per mile with " easier curvature, loads of 120 to 144 gross tons. We note that the sharpest curves are of 528 feet " radius, but it is not stated that this is the radius of the curves in combination with the 130-feet "grade. Our calculations indicate that the engines will have sufficient tractive force to haul these " loads, but we prefer not to make a definite guarantee of the speed, as it is more or less dependent " upon conditions of which we are not fully informed, such as the quality of the coal, the wheel base " of the rolling-stock, condition of track, &c." "In order to compare the stipulated performance with what the B. and 0. engines are actually "performing in daily service, we telegraphed the general superintendent of motive power of that company "inquiring as to the latter, and have the following telegram in reply : — " Have never had maximum load weight taken up 17-mile grade by 1300 class engines. It is about 240 "net tons at schedule speed of 22 miles per hour, exclusive of weight of engine and tender. The 240 " tons APPENDIX. 309 " tons of 2000 lb. are equal to 214 tons of 2,240 lb. There is much curvature on the llV-feet grade, " and we are informed that in some places the actual grade considerably exceeds 117 feet per mile. " The latter is the theoretical grade as shown by the profiles. The B. and 0. locomotives have a total "heating surface of 1,945 square feet, whilst the heating surface of the proposed locomotives, as per " specification No. 5,231, is 1,937 square feet. Prom these data you can readily judge as to the power " and speed of the new engines. "We will supply irort pilots, and in all other respects not specially herein mentioned conform to "the details desired in the Commissioners' letter of 22nd September." We have, &c. TOWNS & CO. Government Eailways of New South Wales, G-entlemen, Secretary's OflSce, Sydney, 29 December, 1890. With reference to the twelve express passenger engines ordered in September last, kindly note these should be numbered from 446 to 4-57 in plain block letters 7 inches high, in gold, on the sides of the cab, on the front bufEer beam, and the back of the tender tank. I think it well to inform you that our 12° curves on which these engines wdll work are on 160-feet grades, and that the worst curves on the 130-feet grades are about 7°. All our passenger rolling stock is carried on trucks chiefly four-wheel, with about 5' G" wheel base. All the axle-boxes are made for oil ; all the wheels under the rolluig stock are 30" diameter, on tread and steel tyres. We calculate that to take a train up the 130-feet grades at 22 miles an hour will require about 50 indicated horse-power less than is wanted by the Baltimore and Ohio engine during its maximum work, and, as in our weight for the train (176 tons gross exclusive of engine and tender) we include an ample allowance for the weight of passenger and baggage, we anticipate that the engine will be fully equal to this performance. We should, however, be glad of your confirmation on this point. I enclose herewith a list of duplicate parts required, with prices as supplied by Messrs. Towns & Co. I have, &c., H. McLACHLAN, The Baldwin Locomotive Company, Philadelphia, Pa., U.S.A. Secretary. The Commissioners for Railways, Sydney, — Dear Sirs, Sydney, 5 Pebruary, 1891. At your request we cabled to the Baldwin Company to know what progress was being made with the locomotives on order, and we have just received the following : " Pirst order locomotives in progress rapidly," which we trust will be satisfactory. We have, &c., P. TOWNS & CO. H. McLachlan, Esq., Secretary N.S.W. Eailways, Sydney, — Dear Sir, Sydney, 19 March, 1891 Our friends, Messrs. E. W. Cameron & Co., write from New York re the advisableness of shipping the engines to come forward in May per sailer instead of per steamer. The Baldwin Company are under contract to ship these per steamer, and on 30th January advise that they were inviting tenders for a steamer to carry them. Tenders to be opened and contract closed on 2nd March. Messrs. Cameron have discussed the question with Mr. Thow and have written to him on the matter. They consider that the engines can be delivered as advantageously by sailer as per steamer, and desire that instructions may be cabled to the Baldwin Co. to ship per E. W. Cameron's line of sailing vsssfils Will you be good enough to favour us with the Commissioners' views on the matter ? If they decide per sailer, we would on behalf of Cameron bear the expense of a cable to them. With reference to the twenty Consolidation freight locomotives, the Baldwin say that they fear the detail particulars will arrive too late, as the work is well advanced. Mr. Thow, however, saw the specifi- cations. At the time of writing, it was the intention of the Baldwin Co. to send Mr. Ehodes to take charge of the erection of locomotives. We have, &c., E. TOWNS & CO New South Wales Q-overnment Eailways, Secretary's Office, Gentlemen ^7'^'^^^' 21 March, 1 891 . Eeferring to your letter of the 19th inst., intimating that Messrs. Cameron & Co. suggest thai the twenty goods engines manufactured by the Baldwin Locomotive Co. for this Departnient may be shipped b/their line of sailing vessels, I have the honor to inform you that the conditions of contract- pro nding for shipment by steamer— cannot be departed from, as speedy delivery of the engmes is one of the principal objects aimed at by the Commissioners. ' H. McLACHLAN, Messrs. Towns & Co., Sydney. Secretary. H. McLachlan, Esq., Secretary N.S.W. Eailways,- ^^^^^^^ ^4 March, 1891. ^"We'have iust received a cable from the Baldwin Company informing us that the s.s. "Henley," 2,243 tons register, classed Al 100, and built 1887, takes the first shipment of locomotives and motors, in place of the s.s. " Dunmurry " which has been disabled. The " Henley :^y];;^;^l°^^f^'^S- E. TOWNS & CO. The 310 APPENDIX. The Commiasioners for Eailways, Sydney, — Dear Sirs, Sydney, 22 April, 1891. We have to-day been advised by cablegram received, from London, that the s.s. " Henley" left Philadelphia for Sydney, on 16th April. -We judge this vessel' should make the passage direct to Sydney in something under 60 days, and therefore will be due here about middle of June at latest. We have, o o ^ .a o i ^ g gl ^^ 03 la o 03 J3 ^ ?* a E3 g cd p^ '^ § t>^ c3 S § 9 - .° u - crt l>> r-l (> fi i-l ■* CO l-H iH W43 fl o:) vra CD . o ^ r-i m ^ rt .• S S 3 00 eo o a < «"-#■« o 6 6 6 c m ■1 S i . = 13 ^ 1 H 1 S O OJ o O -^ M 3 1^ i> to o o o n ■ b to m E-S-J o »f3 : N -^ : 3 S iH- rH ; H ' s .-§ ^ CD -- 5' •*■*■* !1< O O O m lo o 1 1 °° '"i, '"Jn ih" I> O N iH M OJ N (M « r-1 i-( iH 51 ■* ■* 10 OJ en ■f^ 6 ■*- ''- a t» i- n o o 1 ^ i. t» S o g ■&I A ^ ^ as .e. 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O CO CO CO eo eo eo eo IM ■* ■* ■* ■* ■>? ^ ■>* ■* lO U3 Wi m U3 U3 U3 « 00 00 oo 00 00 n » 00 03 [^ < ^ r-T K' tc tC tC »-" ■^ P^ 1 tn »3 1 1 •S 9 •* •^ " ** " ** ■a 1 Q ■E ^ O « l-H " - ^^ ^ - " 1 . 1 1 1 e3 W 5 a L > «[ r a .g t3 § Si 1 1 a 1 ,_i_ a i-i 3 ! M , 1 c 1 1 ' H 1 1 &J /~"— % ,^-^- ^, ^,__ ^(^fc.*— NC"-*— ^ II 1-i cq ffl (N CO (M -^ (M U3 CD CO CO ^ CD 00 CD 1 <(.^ ! SERVICE FAILURE —it— ^TEST FRACTURE 36" h- 5i"~~>\ Axle broke with first blow, 15 feet drop, and apparently with very slight resistance. Locality of fracture, about U inch to one side of blow centre; quality of fracture, mostly crystalline, but good colour. Considerably less drop would probably have fractured this axle. 2nd drop test ; whole journal. Axle broke at an almost continuous circumferential flaw, with 1 foot drop, and apparently very slight resistance. Note. — The flaw here mentioned had been considerably shaken and aggravated by the first or body test, and was found to penetrate from i inch to i inch deep, or about f inch average all round, except at two spots, one about | inch long and the other about i inch long ; very slight signs of fibre and mostly crystalline, like previous fracture. J.C. Eveleigh "Works, 11 November, 1891. Test of two samples of wroiight-iron (hammer forged) machined from the broken bogie axle of an American passenger engine ; Eedfern accident. Samples, 1^ inch square turned down for 10 inches to 1 square inch sectional area. Tons. 6 7 1st Sample. 0-32" elongation in 10". Not tested. Sample failed at square end in one grip, the fracture showing crystalline and indications of pre-existing trans, flaw or shake right through, proved by water rust- marks. Material apparently rotten, and resembling case-hardened wrought- iron. Tons. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Nil. 2nd Sample. 0-32" elongation in 10" 2-32" 4-32" 7-32" 10-32" 12'32" 15'32" signs of straining. 20'32"b. 25-32"b. 1-2-32" 1-2-32" Axle broke without lifting beam. Breaking strain, 22 tons. Ult. elong. in 10", U" = 12-5%. Eeduction of sec. area at fracture (1") = 21-5%. Prac. about 50% fibrous, balance fine hard looking crystal. J.C. Now South Wales Grovernment Eailways, Gentlemen, Secretary's OiEce, Sydney, 30 November, 1891. I have the honor to inform you that we have written to the Baldwin Company, intimating that the passenger engines recently supplied have developed defects, and that we should look to them to make gpod the same. We shall, therefore, claim in due course. I have, &c., ® H. M'LACHLAN, Messrs. E. Towns & Co., Sydney. Secretary. 6 2 E — : Grentlemen, 314 APPENDIX. New South Wales Grovernment Eailways, Gentlemen, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 7 December, 1891. Adverting to my letter of the 27tli ultimo, I beg to say that a clerical error was made in the enclosed copy of Professor "Warren's tests marked " B." Tou will notice in the eighth test (A 8-456) that the total strain in pounds is given as 37,242. This, however, should read 29,250. The strain per square inch is correct as given, namely, 37,242. Will you kindly note ? I have, &c., H. McLACHLAJSr, Messrs. Burnham, Barry, Williams, & Co., Secretary. Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philadelphia, Pa., U.S.A. The Secretary, N. S. Wales Government Eailways, — Dear Sir, Sydney, 11 January, 1892. As the freight engines ex " Strathdon" have now completed their mileage, we shall be obliged by your passing on the enclosed voucher for £7,427 Is. 8d. for payment, as we are anxious to remit same or a portion of it by the mail leaving on 25th instant. We remain, &c., E. TOWNS & CO. New South Wales Government Eailways, Gentlemen, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 13 Pebruary, 1892. With reference to previous letter relative to defects in locomotives supplied by the Baldwin Company, I am directed to inform you that, in order to be secure, we are having all engines examined as opportunity offers, and remedied any defects that may have been found in the axles. The cost of the work to date has been as follows : — £ s. d. Alterations to bogie axles, axle-boxes, and bogie-wheel bosses of engines... 555 11 1 Eeplacing condemned axles on tenders with new steel ones ... ... 59 16 3 £615 7 4 This amount will be deducted from the retention money now in Commissioners' hands, and the Commis- sioners trust the Company will see tbe justice of this proposal. I have, &c., Messrs. Burnham, Parry, Williams, & Co., H. McLACHLAN, Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philadelphia, Pa-., U.S.A. Secretary. Baldwin Locomotive Works (Burnham, Williams, & Co.), Philadelphia, 15 Pebruary, 1892. Mr. H. M'Lachlan, Secretary, Government Eailways of New South Wales, Sydney, N.S.W., — Dear Sir, Your two favours of November 27th and December 7th were duly received, but our reply has been unavoidably delayed. It is with the utmost regret that we have learned of the breakage of the engine and tender axles of the twelve ten-wheel passenger locomotives which were delivered last year per " Henley." The several reports sent us have received careful consideration. In contracting for these locomotives the Commissioners desired to obtain engines adapted to unusually heavy service. In order to secure the utmost efficiency, and to obtain the best results of American experience, they left many of the details of the specification to our judgment. The material for the driving, truck, and tender axles was left optional, and as, in our opinion, the most satisfactory results are usually obtained from axles carefully forged from selected scrap-iron, we ordered such axles from the manufacturer whose product we had been largely using with good results, and whose reputation for excellent work is generally recognised. No test was prescribed by us, as it is well known that no test of scrap axles is conclusive. We relied upon their showing clean, uniform, well-worked material when turned up in the lathe. Steel axles, or axles forged from muck-bars, can be tested under a drop with reasonable probability of the uniformity of the axles not tested ; but the fact that a hammei^d scrap axle withstands such test is no guarantee that others of similar manufacture and appearance will stand. Not only have we been buying axles in this way for many years, but, so far as we know, it is the general practice in buying hammered scrap axles, both by railroads and manufacturers. These axle forgings did turn up clean, smooth, and free from flaws, and we supposed them to be as good as the many hundreds which we had received from the same maker without one instance of failure coming to our knowledge. We go into the matter at this length to assure you that there was no conscious lack of diligence exercised by us to supply materials of the best quality, which your Government was entitled to receive from us. We have already replaced the twenty-four engine truck-axles with others of steel. We offer to reimburse the Government the cost of replacing the forty-eight tender axles. We also offer to pay the reasonable cost of the labour involved in effecting the replacement. We are of the opinion that the original dimensions of the truck and tender axles and journal bearings are ample for the fast speed for which the locomotives are suitable, provided the quality of the material is good and the bearings are well lubricated. These dimensions are here considered the best for such engines, and have been widely adopted for similar service with good results. We should have much hesitation in increasing the diameter of the bearings with such small wheels, owing to the higher rotative friction. It should be borne in mind that the smaller truck wheels necessary in engines of this type require closer attention to the lubrication than the larger wheels usual in English locomotives. If, however, larger bearings are adopted, we urge the desirability of making them 5-2- inches rather than 6 inches diameter. In view of the above, we think the cost of new boxes, whether of iron or solid gun metal, should not be charged to us, as we are certain that the replacing of the axles will prove a sufficient remedy. We remark that the driving axles were not made by the same party as the truck and tender axles. We therefore trust they will, upon investigation, prove satisfactory. There APPENDIX. 315 There appears to have been a clerical error in transmitting to our shopmen the dimensions of draw- hooks shown by your drawings. "We authorise ydu to debit our account the cost of replacing them with stronger hooks. "With these modifications we trust the engines will speedily show the special adaptation, which we believe they possess, to the difficult service for which they were ordered. That similar engines are doing such work on our American railways is shown by the recent tests of our ten-wheel locomotives on the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad. Under separate cover we mail you three copies of the report of these tests. We trust these tests will, -in a measure, justify the wisdom of the Commissioners in the purchase of these locomotives, and that after the defective axles are replaced, the performance of the locomotives will be such as to merit their entire approval. Very truly yours, BUENHAM, "WILLIAMS, & CO. Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philadelphia, 24 March, 1892. Mr. H. M'Lachlan, Secretary, Government Bailways of New South "Wales, Sydney, N.S.W.,— Dear Sir, Tour favour of the 13th ultimo is to hand this day informing us of the expenses, amounting to £615 7s. 4d., for alterations to bogie axles, axle-boxes, wheel-bosses, and replacing condemned axlea on tenders of the locomotives last supplied by us to your railways. In reply, we beg to say that we have given our agents, Messrs. E. Towns & Co., full authority to make such settlement of this claim as may appear to you and them to be equitable. We have no doubt they will adjust the matter to your satisfaction. "Very truly yours, BUENHAM, WILLIAMS, & CO. Dear Sirs, • Sydney, 4 March, 1892. In accordance with the promise made at the interview on the 26th ultimo, I beg to enclose herewith for your information a copy of the notes of the proceedings. Tours faithfully. Messrs. E. Towns & Co., Sydney, H. McLACHLAN, ■ Secretary. Dear Sir, Sydney, 7 March, 1892. We have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 4th instant, with copy of notes of the proceedings of interview on 26th ultimo. Mr. Stokes has perused the same, and would wish that what Mr. Ehodes said in reference to the arrangement proposed by Mr. Thow for supporting the reversing gear be inserted, viz. : — " That as this would be an alteration of design he could not express an opinion, and desired that it should be referred to the Baldwin Company." Mr. Thow then promised to furnish full particulars of his proposed alterations, to be sent to the Baldwin Company, and he has since done so. Mr. Stokes and Mr. Ehodes understood that, save this matter, the settlement arrived at was a final one, and that should anything crop up in connection with the engines which, in the opinion of the Commissioners, ought to be borne by the Baldwin Company, the same would be referred to them, Mr. Ehodes having to leave for New Zealand, en route to America. We have, &c., H. McLachlan, Esq., Secretary, New South Wales Eailways. E. TOWNS & CO. Dear Sirs, New South Wales Government Eailways, Sydney, 9 March, 1892. I have to acknowledge your letter of the 7th instant, respecting copy of notes of interview, and have to say that the Commissioners have no objection to the insertion of the clause quoted by you, and attached you will find slip embodying the same, which will replace. the paragraph at bottom of page 2 of the notes. Tours, &c., Messrs. E. Towns & Co., Sydney. H. McLACHLAN, -, Secretary. Ofiice of the Eailway Commissioners of New South Wales, Sydney, 26 February, 1892. Notes of interview relative to Baldwin Locomotives. Present : The Eailway CoMMissioifEES. Mr. Thow. Mr. Ehodes (Baldwin Co.) Mr. Stokes (Towns & Co.) A STATEMENT showing the whole of the expenditure which has been incurred in connection with the 32 engines purchased from the Baldwin Co., by the Eailway Commissioners, since they have commenced working, was submitted by Mr. Thow, and the following items were agreed as being properly chargeable to the Baldwin Co., and it was understood that the amounts not already deducted from the retention money should be deducted. On account of 12 Passenger engines : Eepairs to portion of brake gear of engine No. 448 Mtting reversing screw catches to 12 engines Fitting Westinghouse Iprake (finishing incomplete brake fitting) Carrying out finishing work on buffers, &c. ... Eepairing or replacing damaged parts Strengthening all reversing lever pins Cost of fitting new bogie brass and turning up tires of bogie wheels ot engine 451 £ s. d. 1 6 43 19 7 6 2 11 38 2 11 .23 2 5 5 4 8. 15 6 (Has been deducted) ^^^^ ^^ ^ On 31G .UiPEITDIX. On account of 12 engines, yet to be charged : — Eeplacing draw-hooks on 12 engines and tenders ... Making 12 wrenches, 1 for each engine * One moiety of cost of testing axles... On account of 20 Consolidation engines : — Fixing catches to reversing screws, putting new fulcBum pins in reversing screw bracket Fitting buffers on engines and tenders Eeplacing draw-hooks on tenders and engines JFinishiug incompleted brake fittings ... JVIaking 40 bars 3 ft. 6in. long to fit sockets of screwjacks (jack-bars) ... Jfinishing' work not completed The following alterations are not yet completed and a further debit will be made for the work still to be done, as well as whatever is necessary to complete : — Alteration to bogie axle, axle-box, and bogie wheel-boss (changing axles, &c.) (12 engines) ... ... ... ... Alterations to axle-box brass and shoe (32 tepders) Eeplacing condemned axles .. Total to be deducted to date Amount previously deducted, as above ... ... ... , Total amount chargeable to Baldwin Co. to date On account of 12 Passenger engines : — Testing 1 broken axle of engine No. 457 Breaking 2 axles and preparing pieces for University test (6 axles tested altogether) £ s. 22 4 14 16 19 d. 6 7 3 62 8 10 16 34 10 16 1 5 3 23 10 8 3 4 626 2 21 14 168 14 4 4 2 £1,008 18 226 13 5 4 £1,235 11 9 15 16 18 2 6 £33 18 6 The Commissioners decided that the following items, in addition to £16 19s. 3d., being one moiety of cost of testing axles before referred to, should be paid for by the Department, as they were details necessary for the working of the Department, and quite outside the work required from engine builders, unless specially ordered, and^a special allowance made for the carrying out of the work. Complete or Incomplete. Particulars of Work. Engines dealt with. Cost. Complete..., Incomplete Complete... )i Inopmplete Complete... Incomplete Complete... Incomplete Fitting lamps and irons, also coal boards Fitting 1 additional water guage, and carrying main air-pipe to front Repairing 1 tender bogie hook, 2 diagonal stays, and arm of tender brake shaft Fitting hand-rails to tenders, and making 20 wrenches for oil-nups Fixing 2 foot-boards on each engine , Alterations to bolt in large end of connecting rods Fixing hand-rails in front of tenders Fixing coal boards to tender Shield-plate for fire door-rings Making frames for notices in cabs ; Making and fitting strainers in man-holes of tanks Alterations to brake shoes Alterations to brake shoes Alterations to rcTersing gear Alterations to tender brake shoes 20 Consolidated... 12 Passenger . ,32 Engines .... „ .... „ — 20 Consolidated. 12 Passenger . 32 Engines .... £ s. d, 34 10 10 81 6 5 27 14 4 38 2 3 22 14 2 1 10 6 32 I 3 4 14 10 10 1 2 2 10 5 32 11 9 2 18 11 3 9 5 5 4 The arrangement for supporting the reversing screws was discussed, as in the opinion of Mr.Thow the strengthening was absolutely necessary, but at the present moment the details of the arrangement had not been fully worked out. It was intimated that the Commissioners considered the Baldwin Company should bear the cost of this, and Mr. Ehodes said that as this would be an alteration of design he could not express an opinion, and desired that it should be referred to the Baldwin Company. It was intimated that should any further weaknesses develop themselves which, in the opinion of the Commissioners, were defects in material, or should have been provided against by the Baldwin Company, the cost of making such alteration would be deducted from the retention money. "With regard to the axles whieli were sent by the Baldwin Company to replace the defective axles in the bogies of the engines, it was understood that no debit whatever should be made against the Eailway Commissioners on account of these axles. E.M.G-.E. w.M.r. CO. Government Eailways of New South Wales, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 22 September, 1890. Dear Sir, I send you copy of further letter to Towns & Co. (for the'Baldwin Co. of America), ordering twelve locomotives from that firm, to be supplied in five months. The letters already sent fully explain the steps we have taken, and you will notice in the present communication our requirements are fully stated. No provision, however, has been made with regard to the inspection of the engines ; but, if you deem it desirable that the engines should be inspected, the Commissioners will be glad if you will arrange for the appointment of a suitable man, and pay whatever remuneration you may deem right for such services. No doubt leading local engineers would be glad to advise you as to the merits of suitable gentlemen, and you could arrange with Messrs. E. W. Cameron & Co. as to payment of an inspecting engineer's salary. Tours faithfully, H. McLACHLAN, W. Thow, Esq., care Agent-General N.S.W., "Westminster Chambers, London. Secretary. Sir, *The other moiety will be charged to the Railway Department, Messrs. Stokes and Rhodes having urged tij that the tests were unusually severe, and consequently unusually expensive. Commissioners on the grounds APPENDIX. 317 Sir, Chief Mechanical Engineer's Office, Eveleigh, Sydney, 8 December, 1891. With reference to the subject of our conversation to-day, and your instruction of September 22, 1890, containing the following :— " If you deem it desirable that the engines should be inspected, the CommissionerB will be glad if you will arrange for the appointment of a suitable man, and pay whatever remuneration you may deem right for such services," — I beg to inform you that, on reaching the States, I visited the Baldwin works on the 20th December foUowing, and after I had ascertained the nature of the contract entered into, as well as the other state of the work, I consulted our agents in New York, and other gentlemen, whose knowledge of rolling stock contracts in America enabled them to advise me with regard to the question which your letter left to my iudgment._ It was pointed out to me that the manufacture of locomotives under' inspection was only usual when the purchaser furnished his own specifications and designs, and that although an inspector might still be appointed he could not have any useful status under a contract then three months old, which did not recognise his authority, and that any action he could take must of necessity, under such circumstances, be very feeble. Our agents pointed out that the name of the Baldwin firm was a guarantee that the quality of the work they would send us would be equal to the high class productions which had made their reputation. Prom what I heard and saw, I concluded that, except in the event of fraud, which there was no reason to apprehend, any inspector appointed by me would be more likely to relieve the makers of some of the responsibility and onus, which, under the contract, rested upon them, than to assist the Com- missioners, and also that the cost of the engines would be increased without securing an equivalent benefit. W. THOW, Secretary. Twenty Goods Engines. H. M'Lachlan, Esq., Secretary, Government Eailways;, N.S.W., — i2e Supply of Locomotives. Dear Sir, Sydney, 15 December, 1890. Eef erring to our letter of 15th November, on this subject, we have the honor to forward here- with three specifications of consolidation locomotives. Engine No. 5,291, class 10. 38 E, Engine No. 5,292, class 10. 36 E. Engine No. 5,293, class 10. 34 E., which have been forwarded by the Baldwin Locomotive Co., Philadelphia, for the information of the Commissioners. In reference thereto, the Baldwin Co. write a.s follows: — " On the 23rd October we received your telegram informing us that the Commissioners for Eailways require within the coming year about eighty locomotives, and it' we can furnish engines sufficiently powerful for speedy delivery the order will probably be given us. "We replied on the same date inquiring of what weight and power the locomotives are needed, as we have built engines weighing upwards of 150,000 lb., exclusive of the tender, and are constructing for the Grand Trunk Eailway Decapad tank locomotives weighing in working order about 180,000 lb. or 81 gross tons. We offer to construct and ship the entire eighty engines within six months after receipt of order. We have not yet received your reply to this message, and we presume the delay is due to the difficulty in determining the exact specification upon which to invite our estimate. In order to assist in coming to a decision we enclose specifications of three sizes of consolidation freight loco- motives." Specification 5,291 describes the engine above referred to as weighing in working order upwards of 150,000 lb., with cylinders 22 and 28, boilers, 72 inch diameter, and with a wheel-box no greater than the consolidation locomotives at present in service on your lines. The weight per axle is about 34,000 lb.,' or somewhat more than the limit fixed for the 10-wheel passenger locomotives ordered. _ It may be, however, that this excess will not be objectionable, as these locomotives will be used in freight service at a much lower speed than the passenger engines, and therefore the effect of impact upon track and gradients will be much reduced. We enclose a statement of the performance of engines of this class on the Northern Pacific Eailroad, on grades of 116 feet per mile, in combination with curves of 573 feet radius. We hereby propose and agree to construct locomotives to this specification for the sum of 19,250 dollars each, delivered on shore at Sydney by steamer. Specification 5,292 describes lighter engines, with cylinders 21 and 26, and a weight per axle of 30,500 lb., or 2,000 lb. less than the limit fixed for the 10-wheel engines. We hereby propose and agree to construct locomotives to the specification for the sum of 17,750 dollars each, delivered as above. Specification 5,293 describes engine still lighter, the weight per axle being about 26,4.00 lb. _ This is the size of freight engines most generally used in tbis country, being the standard freight engine of the Pennsylvania Eailroad, the New York, Lake Erie and Western, the Boston a^d Albany, the Eichmond and Danville, the Louisville and Nashville, the East Tennessee, Virginia, and Georgia and many other lines. We offer to construct locomotives to this specification for the sum of 16,750 doJlars each, delivered as above. „ . . , j , • n .i, t n j-i. The wheel-base proposed for the three classes of engines is substantially the same. In all three specifications we have included copper fire-boxes, brass tubes, copper dry pipes, copper stay-bolts at the sides of the fire-box, and crown sheets supported either by crown bars or by iron radial stay-bolts. Steel- tired wheels throughout ; Westinghouse automatic brake applied to all the driving and tender wheels ; screw hand-brake on driving and tender wheels ; buffers, draw-hooks and coupling-rods m accordance with the drawings sent us, and all details throughout in accordance with the most approved American practice, as modified by our correspondence respecting the 10-wheeled engines. Should the Government decide to place the order with us we offer to construct at least twenty locomotives within five months after receipt of order, and to ship the balance m lots of twenty or more if steamers can be obtained to carry them, at intervals of not more than monthly thereafter. We append memorandum of code words to be used in connection with these specihoations. j;rm<«.-We desire to correct the following clerical error which we have discovered m specification 5,261. Fire-box to be,of copper i inch thick instead of i inch thick. e— 2S We have, &c., E. TOWNS & CO.- The 318 APPEKDIX. The Locomotive Engineer, — Referring to the subject discussed with the Chairman yesterday, yiz., th^t of providing more powerful engines for goods and live stock traffic over the heavy portion of the line, we pave considered the matter, and are of opinion that there is much to be gained in that direction. With heavy gradients on single lines, engines that will take heavy loads at a fair speed, thus reducing the number of trains passing over the line, and shortening the time occupied between stations, is an important consideration. As an instance, we may state that to move 100 trucks of cattle from Dubbo to Penrith seven trains are now run, the speed of which (including all stoppages) averages 13^ miles an hour. Engines are required that win take 33 per cent, greater load, and have a margin of power for increasing the speed to 17 miles an hour. Moreover as there will be shortly on the lines engines capable of hauling forty waggons qt cattle from Bourke 1o Dubbo, assisted possibly for the last 9 miles, to be able to divide such trains into two at Dubbo will greatly facilitate the work. "With our existing engines a tra.in of forty trucks of cattle would have to be formed into three trains at Dubbo. The same advantages, though possibly to a lesser extent, are to be' gained on the Northern and Southern systems. The engine described, viz., having cylinders, 21 inch diameter and -26 inch stroke will, we are satisfied, give such a service, but we would recommend that instead of 50-inch wheels they should be 51 inch, so that the wear of tyres will not bring the wheel diameter below 4 feet. We would also recommend that the engines and tenders be fitted with the most powerful hand and power brakes, and that the details be specifieoTin accordance with our present practice. Twelve of these engines will be required to meet the Western live stock traffic alone between Dubbo and Penrith. D. H. NEALE. '""" E. A. LOUGHRY. 20/12/90. > C. H. STANGER. The Secretary — W. Thow {per C.A.N.). Order twelve engines of No. 5,292 type, all details possible to be made interchangeable with the express passenger engines ; ordered wheel to be 51-inch diameter. Pressure to be 160 lb. Breaks to be so arranged that only two men required. Early delivery most important. — E.M.G.E., W.M.F., CO., 22/12/90. New South Wales Government Railways, Gentlemen, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 22 December, 1801. I am directed by the Railway Commissioners to request you to order from the Baldwin Locomotive Works twelve engines of the specification No. 5,292 type, all details possible to be made interchangeable with the express passenger engines ordered ; wheel to be 51. inch diameter; pressure to be 160 lb. Brake to be so arranged that only two men required. Early delivery most important. Eurther particulars will follow. I have, &c., H. M'LACHLAN, Messrs. R. Towns & Co., Sydney. Secretary. The Commissioners for Railways, New South Wales, — Dear Sirs, ydney, 23 December, 1890. We have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your favor of 22nd instant, ordering twelve engines of the specification No. 5,292 type, as sent by the Baldwin Locomotive Works. As requested by you we wired this order and have pleasure to hand you herewith copy of cable sent. We have, &c., R. TOWNS & Co. Copy of cable sent Baldwin Locomotive Works, 23rd December, 1890, at request of Commissioners for Railways. Commissioners for Railways, New South Wales. — ^^Order twelve locomotives as per specification No. 5,292 ; all possible details interchangeable with previous orders ; make driving-wheels diameter 51 ; pressure, 160 lb. ; brakes so arranged that only two men required ; despatch urgent, sending details. The Commissioners for Railways, Sydney, Sydney 29 December, 1890. Dear Sirs, In reply to cable to Baldwin Company, conveying your order for twelve locomotives, we have just received following reply : — " Order entered, shipment May ; can construct twenty to twenty-five within same time ; this would permit best arrangements possible for shipping. We would advise trial compound system on two or more, 750 dollars each extra." Should you decide to have twenty to twenty-five, shipped and to try the compound system, please be good enough to instruct us accordingly. We have, &c., • R. TOWNS & CO. Increase the order to twenty, compound two ; care to be taken not to exceed outside measurements already given. Inform Thow.— E.M.G.E., W.M.F., 29 12/90. Dear Sirs, Sydney, 29 December, 1890. We are in receipt of your memo, to increase order for locomotives to twenty, two to be compounded, and care to be taken not to exceed outside measurements already given. We immediately, on receiving this, sent the following cable to the Baldwin Company : — " Commissioners for Railways, New South Wales. Increase order to twenty ; compound two, not increasing outside measurements. Inform Thow." Tours, &c., The Commissioners for Railways, Sydney. R. TOWNS & CO. . New South Wales Government Railways, Gentlemen, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 8 January, 1891. I beg to confirm cablegram forwarded you through Messrs. R. Towns & Co. on the 29th ultimo, increasing the order for twelve goods engines. No. 5,292 specification, to twenty, two of the engines to be compounded, and care to be taken that the outside dimensions do not exceed the measure- ments already given, and asking that Mr. Thow might be advised. I have, &c., ■ H. M'LACHLAN, The Baldwin Locomotive Company, Philadelphia, Pa., U.S.A. Secretary. APPESDIX. 319 ^Form 1S6.) Baldwin Locomotive Works, BURNHAM, PARRY, WILLIAMS, & CO., PHILADELPHIA, P.A., U.S.A. 1^0. 5433. Class 10-36 D. 9 to 20. OF A LOCOMOTIVE ENGINE FOE TilE GOVERNMENT OF NEW SOUTH WALES. J.'\N. 17, i8gi. GENERAL DESCRIPTION. Oeneral design, illustrated by attached photograph, of Engine 1300, with straight boiler. G— 2 T DIMENSIONS. AMENDIX. 821 Specification of Passenger Engines. 'Baldwin Locomotive Works, Buknham, Paeet, Williams, a^d Co., Philadelphia, Pa., U.S.A, (No. 5433.) ' (Class 10-36, D 9 to 20.) Specification of a locomotiv-e engine for the G-overnment of New South Wales, Jan. 17, 1891. General Description. General design illustrated by attached photograph of engine 1300, with straight boiler. Design. . Dimensions. Gauge of road, 4 feet 8| inches in the clear between the rails. Gauge. Extreme width not to exceed 9 feet 6 inches ; aeross-cab, 9 feet 3 inches across cylinders ; extreme Limitatiom.. height not to exceed 13 feet 6 inches ; sharpest curve, 528 feet radius ; maximum grade, 176 feet per mile. Diameter of cylinders, 21 inches ; length of stroke, 24 inches. Cylinders. Weight of engine, empty, about 112,000 pounds; with water and fuel, about 130,000 pounds ; Weight of engine, total weight on driving-wheels, in running order, about 97,500 pounds ; weight on engine truck, in running order, about 32,000 pounds ; -32,500 pounds per axle. Weight of tender, empty, about 33,000 pounds ; with full load of fuel and water, about 72,000 pounds. Weigiit of tender. Diameter of driving-wheels, 61 inches. Driving-wheels. > Total wheel-base of engine, 23 feet 4 inches ; rigid wheel-base, 12 feet 6 inches ; spread of engine wheoi-base. truck-wheels, 6 feet ; distance from centre of truck to centre of front driving-wheels, 7 feet 10 inches ; pentre of front driving-wheels to centre of second pair of driving-wheels, 5 feet 6 inches; centre of second to centre of third pair of driving-wheels, 7 feet. Springs throughout to be of best crucible cast-steel, carefully made and of proper proportions ; to Springs, be carefully tested before being applied. All pins to be case-hardened. The fuel will be bituminous coal. F"*'- The Boiler. The shell of boiler to be of best homogeneous cast-steel, of flange quality, ft inch thick ; riviBted Material, with 1-inch rivets, placed not more than 3i inches from centre to centre for double riveting, and not more than 2i inches from centre to centre for single riveting. Seams of connecting sheets double riveted ; *'^^'"b '"''^*^5u sq in longitudinal seams, butt-jointed, with double covering strips. Plue-sheet, at smoke-box end, of steel. Fire-box'.'. 'loa sq! in! half-inch thick. Throat-sheet \ of an inch thicker than shell of boiler, to prevent undue thin- ^otai .i.gasj iq. in nini' where flanged. All parts well and thoroughly stayed, and extra welt-pieces riveted to inside of side- sheets, providing double thickness of melal for studs of expansion-braces. All plates planed at edges with round-pointed caulking-tool, insuring plates against injury by chipping and caulking with sharp- edged tools. Working steam-pressure, 160 pounds per square inch ; boiler tested with hot water to a pressure of 200 pounds per square inch, and with steam to a pressure of 180 pounds per square inch. Waist, 62 inches diameter at smoke-box end ; made straight top, with one dome placed centrally. Waiat. Dome to be made of best homogeneous cast-steel, \ inch thick, 31^ inches diameter, 30| inches ^°^<^- high, aud flanged at bottom ; to be fitted to boiler by flanging upward the waist-sheet on which dome rests, and flanging outward the bottom of dome to fit the flange of waist-sheet, the two flanges being riveted together by one row of horizontal and one row of vertical rivets. Fire-box to be of best copper, i inch thick ; flue-sheet, \ and 1 inch thick ; crown-sheet of copper, Fire-box. \ inch thick ; all plates to be thoroughly annealed after flanging; fire-box to be ]20 inches long by 33^ inches wide, by mE inches deep inside. Stay-bolts of copper 1 inch diameter and 4 inches apart ; the bolts to be screwed into plates stay-boits. with fine threaded screw and both ends carefully riveted. Water space, 3 inches sides and back, 4 inches front. Crown supported by iron radial stay-bolts, 1 inch diameter, not more than 4 inches from centre crown-staying. to centre, screwed through crown-sheet and roof of boiler and riveted over. Brass plug, with fusible centre, to be inserted in crown of fire-box. Fusible plug. Pire-brick arch supported by studs, tapped into side-sheets of fire-box. Fire-brick arch. Pire-door (oval) to be made of cast-iron, sliding, with cast-iron liner; fire-door opening formed by Fire-box door. I flanging and riveting together the inner and outer sheets. Tool guard to be cast on lower part of fire- ! door frame. Grate-bars of cast-iron ; of design adapted to fuel, to be properly fitted and arranged. ^f*** ^"'^ Ash-pan of iron. No. 8 wire-gauge, to be properly secured to bottom of fire-box ; bottom to be *»•»?»"• 12 inches clear of grate. Damper to be placed at each end of ash-pan, to be worked from foot-board ; each damper when D™pera. ; shut to keep itself well closed by its own weight. i; , Mud-holes, for cleaning, to be made in the legs of the boiler at bottom, one in each comer, 2 Mud-hoies. ■ inches diameter, and one under waist in front end, below the tubes, 2\ inches diameter, all with brass plugs screwed in; two cleaning-plugs 2i inches diameter on right side, and one on left side level with crown-sheet. Plues to be made of brass, Nos. 12 and 14 wire-gauge; 270 in number, 2 inches diameter, 13 feet Flues, long ; to be fitted at fire-box end with steel thimbles, and carefully expanded and beaded over both flue Balanced poppet throttle-valve or regulator to be fitted in dome to vertical arm of dry-pipe and R«e"i»'t<« or throttle, worked by rod and handle from the foot-plate. Steam-pipes, main and branch, leading from dome to cylinders ; main or dry-pipe of copper, steam-pipei. i inch thick, inside 7i inches diameter ; branch pipes, of cast-iron, accurately fitted with ground-joints aud brass rings. The smoke-box to be round, and extended, with netting, deflecting plate and spark ejector ;_ smoke- Smoke-box. box front of cast-iron ; the door to be in one piece, to open horizontally ; to be fastened by outside tap- bolts, fitted so that they will draw the door to a close joint. Smoke-stack of iron, taper pattern j to be perfectly and strongly fitted to smoke-box ; top to be smoke-staoic. not more than 13 feet 6 inches above top of rails. 6—2 XT MacMnery, 322 APPEITDIX. Oylinders. Cylinder-cocks. Pistons. ExliauSt-pipes. Steam jet or blower. Steam-joints Cross-heads. Guides. Valve-motion Packing;. Bods. (*IArN5OTBS =a Crank-pins (large), eti-oups. Feed-water. Safety-valves. Steam-gauge. Glass water-gauge. Gauge-cock. Slow-oS cock. Engine-frames. Boiler-bnuses. Expansion room. Driving-wheels, Tires. AXCE 3 PRE EERgED Driving-boxes. Lubricators as speciiiod by Mr. Thow. Plan. Wheels. Springs. Cylinders to be outside-connected, of close-grained iron as hard as can be worked ; each cylinder cast in one piece with ' half saddle, placed horizontally ; right and left hand cylinders reversible and interchangeable ; accurately planed, fitted, and bolted together in the most approved manner. Vake-face and steam-chest feeat raised above face of cylinder to allow for wear. Cylinders and valves oiled by Nathan 8-automatic sight feed lubricator, placed in cab, connected to steam-chests by copper-pipes running under jacket. Pipes proved to 200 pounds pressure. Cylinders to be 22 inches inside diameter ; stroke to be 24 inches; cylinder-covers to have ground-joints ; steam-ports to be 19 inches by 1-f inches; exhaust- ports to 19 inches by 3 inches. Cylinder-cocks to be fitted to cylinders ; to be operated from foot-board. Piston-heads of cast-iron, fitted with approved form of steam-packing ; piston-rods of iron or steel, ground and keyed to cross-heads, and securely fastened to pistons. Exhaust-pipes to be of cast-iron, with three difierent sizes of nozzles, of suitable capacity. Cock and pipe to be fitted to boiler to turn a jet of steam up the chimney when required ; to be worked from foot-board. All steam-joints to be metal to metal when finished. Cross-heads to be made of cast-steel, with brass-bearings ; wrist-pins to be 4 inches diameter and 3^ inches long. Stub solid as P.E.E., except-wedge vertical. G-uides to be of steel, cast-iron, or wrought-iron case-hardened, fitted to wrought-iron |piide yoke. Shifting link-motion, graduated to cut off equally at all points of the stroke. Links, sliding-blocks. pins, lifting-links, and eccentric-rod jaws made of hamniered iron, well case-hardened. Sliding-blocks with foug flanges to give ample wearing surface. Eock-shaft of wrought-iron ; reverse-shaft of wrought-iron with arms forged on. Weight of links and eccentric-rods counterbalanced by a spring. Slide-valves, balanced pattern, with vacuum-valves ; valve-stems to clasp valves. No screws or joints inside of steam-chests. U.S. metallic packing for piston-rod and valve-stems. ' Screw reverse-gear. » Connecting and parallel rods of steel, or hammered iron, forged solid. Conneeting-rods with main stu W, keys, and brasses, but without straps. Parallel-rods with straps, keys, and brasses, or with solid ends and heavy brass bushings. Bushings put in by hydraulic pressure and well secured from turning in rod. ' ^, Crank -pins of steel or wrought-iron, of proper size, accurately turned and fitted with care. ' Lubrication of all bearings carefully provided for and oil-cups attached where required. Wick, spindle, or adjustable needle oil-cups on rods and guides. Supplied by two 10|-Sellers' 1887 injectors, valves and cages of best hard brass, accurately fitted ; cock in feed-pipe regulated from foot-board ; all pipes, feed, steam, and check, of copper. Three safety-valves to be placed on the dome ; to be set to blow ofi" at a pressure of 160 pounds per square inch ; safety-valves to be furnished with relief lever, one with cap and lock. Steam-gauge of approved make, after being tested, to be fitted on top' of boiler, inside of cab. One glass water-gauge to be fitted to boiler, in cab, with brass cocks and guard-case of polished iron ; gauge to be of Scotch annealed glass. Three gauge-cocks, to be finished and fitted to face of boiler, with drip-funnel o£ brass. ; .! Blow-off cock of brass, to be fitted in fire-box at bottom ; to be worked from foot-board. !•« Frames and Running-gear. Erames of hammered iron, made in two sections, so as to be taken apart in or near the middle, for convenience of repairs or shipping. Prom rails bolted and keyed to main frames, with front and hack lugs forged on for cylinder connections. Pedestals forged solid with main frame and protected from wear of boxes by cast-iron gibs and wedges. Pedestal-caps lugged and bolted to bottom of pedestals. "Waist of boiler securely braced to frames between fire-box and smoke-box by T-irons fitted to boiler and bolted to wrought-iron plates extending across. Proper allowance for difference of expansion of boiler and frame to be made where frame is attached to boiler at fire-box end. Driving-wheels. Six in number, 61 inches in diameter. Centres of wrought-iron, turned to 55 inches diameter and carefully counterbalanced. Of cast-sfeel, of Standard Steel "Works' make, 3 inches thick when finished ; front and back pairs flanged, 5 J inches wide,, main pair plain, 6 wide. Of hammered iron or steel ; journals 8 inches diameter and 8^ inches long ; to be made a true cylinder and carefully fitted. Driving-boxes of steeled cast-iron, planed true on all sides, and slotted to the bearings, which are to be turned and truly fitted ; the upper bearings to have oil-box and cover and grooved diagonally on the inside ; the lower part to have a sponge-box cast in it and to be supported by two bolts, easily reimovable for examination of bearings and journals ; the boxes to be provided with wedgen on one side to take up the wear. Engine-trucTc. Centre-bearing swivelling, 4-wheeled truck. Truck-frame of wrought or east-iroii, with brakes of wrought iron ; fitted with swinging bolster, or with fixed centre-bearing. Eour cast-iron centre steel-tired wheels, 30 inches diameter. Axles of hammered iron or steel, with journals 5 inches diameter and 10 inches long. Of crucible cast-steel, tempered in oil; connected by equalising beams resting on tops of boxes. Equalisation.. The weight of the locomotive to be distributed upon the wheels by e^ualising-levers, connecting to the springs and propei'Iy designed to give each wheel perfect bearing on the track under all conditions of service. APPENDIX. 323 Accessories. Substantially built of clear, sound ash, or clear pine, well seasoned and finished, and properly Cab. painted and yarnislied. Cab to be fitted together with joint-bolts and corner plates and firmly secured to boiler. To be provided with suitable windows and doors, conveniently arranged, and glazed with first-quality double American crystal glass. Doors to open on hinges and provided with strong fastenings to secure them shut or open at any distance. Roof to be covered with tin, properly put on, and painted. Cab made so that it can be taken to pieces to facilitate shipping. Eunning-boards of iron, with nosings of iron, polished or painted. Runnidg-boaKia. Hand-rails of polished brass, or of iron, polished or painted. Wheel-cover nosings of polished Hand-rails »nd wheel brass, or of iron, polished or painted. covers. Cylinders lagged with wood and neatly cased with iron, painted. Cylinder-head covers of Finish, hydraulic forged steel or cast-iron, painted or polished. Steam-chests with cast-iron tops ; bodies cased with iron, painted. Dome lagged with asbestos or magnesia, with iron, painted, casing on body, and cast iron top and bottom rings. Boiler lagged with asbestos or magnesia, neatly jacketed with planished iron, secured by brass or iron bands. Screw' hand-brakes and "Westinghouse automatic air-brake on all driving and tender-wheels. Ross Brakes, modified shoes. Pilot of iron, strongly braced with iron, arranged to suit buffers. Pilot. Draw-bar of wrought-iron, strongly fastened to centre of forward buffer beam. Drawn-tar. Engine and tender fitted with spring buffers and draw-hook, latter to withstand breaking strain of Buffers and eoupiingsi &t least 100,000 lb. Turton buffers same as furnished Beyer, Peacock, and Company. Each locomotive shall be erected complete at the works of the builder, and a trial under steam be Testing, made sufficient to show that it is in perfect working order, and that proper clearances and a;dJHBtments have been provided. Engine and tender to be properly painted ; to be neatly striped when required ; to be varnished Painting: with three coats of best varnish. Engine to be furnished with front and back sand-boxes, but not on boiler, gong, whistle, cab-seats, Furniture and tools; and cab-seat cushions. To be provided with a complete set of wrenches to fit all nuts and bolts, including one large and one small monkey-wrench ; six files, assorted ; one gauge-lamp and holder ; one brass torch ; three iron and six wood tube plugs; one tube-plug holder; six cast-steel chisels, assorted; two pin-punches; one chipping hammer ; one soft hammer ; one copper tallow-kettle; one copper tallow-bucket ; one brass oil- can ; two oil-feeders ; two galvanised buckets ; one pick ; one slice-bar ; one rake ; one fire-shovel ; and two screw traversing jacks. Cab tool-boxes with locks and keys. To be carefully taken apart and boxed ready for shipment. All the bright work, such as connecting Paeking. rods, pistons, straps, eccentrics, guides, cross-heads, cylinder-covers, bolts, &c., to be well covered with and protected from oxidation by a mixture of tallow, beeswax, and white lead put on while warm ; these parts to be then packed in boxes and securely braced, and not packed with shavings, hay straw, or any similar material. The bright work that cannot be boxed, such as crank pins, journals of axles and eccentrics, to be coated same as other bright work, then wrapped with stout canvas tied on and tarred. Packing-boxes to be made of suitable material and strongly hooped with iron. Packing-list, in duplicate, to be made by builders, showing weight and measurement, together with PaokiDg-iist, names and numbers of boxes, bundles and pieces. A drawing to be furnished for guidance in re-erecting the engine. General Features of Construction. All principal parts of engine accurately fitted to gauges and templates, and thoroughly inter- Gauges. changeable. . /. , ■ All finished movable nuts and all wearing surfaces of machinery of steel, or iron, case-hardened, case-hardening. I All threads on bolts to United States standard ; such bolts as require them to have jam-nuts. AUoy. Tender. Tank of steel or iron, strongly put together, with angle iron corners and well braced. Top, inside. Tank, and bottom plates i inch thick ; outside plates fe inch thick ; riveted with f inch rivets, 1| inch pitch. Capacity 3,600 gallons (of 231 cubic inches). Shape of tank wedge, square top. Capacity. Tender-frame substantially built of channel iron, strongly braced. Tender floor to be of wrougM- Frame. iron plates, i inch thick. . » , i , i t. . . r Two 4-wheeled centre-bearing trucks; additional bearings at sides ot back truck. Pattern ot Trucks. truck, square wrought-iron frames equalised. Springs of crucible cast-steel, tempered in oil. springs. "Wheels, cast-iron centres with steel tires, 36 inches diameter. , ■, , n ^^*''' Axles of hammered iron or steel; journals 4 inches diameter by 8 inches long, 5i' whed fit. Axles and journals Oil-tight boxes with brass bearings, accurately finished and fitted. Joumai-boxes. Brakes on both trucks, operated by suitable, brake-shaft at forward end of tender. Brakes. Tank-valves, with strainers conveniently arranged in front end of tank at bottom to connect with Tank-vaives. feed pipes, and worked from foot-board by levers at top of tank. Tender connected with engine by India-rubber hose, one on each side, of best quality and proper Host-connections. S1Z6 Two safety-chains to connect tender with engine ; also two for each truck, connecting front Safety-chains. corners of trucks with tank-frame. ,,■ . ■> ^ 3 Two tool-boxes of iron, strongly made, with good locks, and strong strap hinges ; to be placed on looi-boxes. Particular care to be taken that all bearings of importance have good oil cups or cellars capable of Lubrication, holding a proper worsted syphon or other efficient means of feeding oil. , ^ , • AU oil cups should have proper covers, well secured, and dust-proof, as our Ime is very dusty and hot hearings very common. «, u v Especial care to be taken with boiler, frame, and rod work. workmanship. Tire section as tracing 2090. . Baldwin 324 appendix. Baldwin Locomotive Wouks. Physical Test of Materials. All materials used in the construction of the locomotive shall be of the best quality of their respective kinds, carefully inspected, and subjected to the following tests. Notwithstanding theSe tests, si ould any defects be developed in working the corresponding part will be rejected. Boiler iron. ' All boiler iron will be specified C. H. No. 1 Flange quality, and must be made from the best char- coal blooms. A careful examination will be made of every sheet, and none will be accepted that show mechanical defects. hi?n?8he'j tom'^^i^ *"* ^ *®^* piece to be furnished from each sheet, to be tested. , Such test strips must show an ultimate sheet. tensile strength with the grain of not less than 50,000 pounds, an ultimate tensile strength across the grain of not less than 45,000 pounds, and must show a ductility, measured by elongation, of not less than 20 per cent. Should any of the test pieces fail to fulfil the above requirements, the corresponding sheet will be rejected. Should any plates develop defects in working, they wiU be rejected. Each plate must be stamped with the maker's name and the guaranteed tensile strength and elongation as above. Boiler and flre-box steel. A careful examination will be made of every sheet, and none will be accepted that show mechanical defects. Test strips taken lengthwise from each sheet and without annealing should have a tensile strength of 55,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of 30 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Sheets will not be accepted if the test shows a tensile strength less than 50,000 pounds, or greater than 65,000 pounds per square inch, nor if the elongation falls below 25 per cent. Should any sheets develop defects in working they will be rejected. Fire-box copper. Copper plates for fire-boxes must be rolled from best quality Lake Superior ingots ; they must have a tensile strength o£ not less than 30,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of from 20 to 25 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Test strips must be furnished with each fire-box for testing. Iron and steel stay-bolts Iron or steol for stay-bolts and braces must have an ultimate tensile strength' of not more than and boiler braces. 60,000 pounds nor less than 50,000 pounds per square inch, with an elongation of not less than 30 per cent., nor undergo a reduction of area of fractured section of more than 35 per cent. Copper stay-bolts. Copper stay-bolts must be manufactured from the best Lake Superior ingots ; they must have an ultimate tensile strength of not less than 30,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of from 20 to 25 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Boiler-tubes of steel or All boiler tubes must be carefully inspected and be free from pit-holes or other imperfections. Each tube must be subjected to an internal hydraulic pressure of not less than 500 pounds per square inch by the manufacturers before delivery. They must be rolled accurately to the gauge furnished by the Baldwin Locomotive Works, filling the gauge to a plump fit. They must be expanded in, the boiler without crack or flaw. When tested, iron or steel tubes must show a tensile strength of not less than 55,000 pounds per square inch, and a ductility of not less than 15 per cent. Boiler-tubes of brass or Tubes of brass or copper to be of uniform circumferential thickness and solid drawn ; to he ptpe^"^' '*'"" '^'^'''" perfectly round, and to resist an internal hydraulic pressure of 300 pounds per square inch. From the tubes under test, a piece 4 inches long will be cut, annealed, sawn lengthwise, and doubled inside out without showing sign of cracks. When annealed they must withstand flanging cold a flange -«- of an inch broad for 2-inch tubes without- cracking. Copper tubes must withstand flanging hot as well as cold. Tubes other sizes than 2 inches diameter must flange to a width proportional to their diameter. A piece 30 inches long, annealed and filled with rosin, must withstand being doubled until the extremities touch each other without showing defects. A piece 30 inches long, not annealed, filled with rosin, and placed on supports 20 inches apart, must withstand bending to a deflection of 3 inches without showing defects. Bar iron. Bar irou should have a tensile strength of 50,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of 20 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Iron will not be accepted if tensile strength falls below 48,000 pounds, nor if elongation is less than 15 per cent., nor if it shows a granular fracture. Chilled wheels. Of approved make, and of following guaranteed mileage : — For 28'^ wheels 40,000 miles. For 33" wheels 50,000 miles. „ 30'' „ 45,000 „ Other sizes in proportion. (Adopted by Joint Committee of Master Car Builders' Association, American K»ilway Master Mechanics' Assooiatio n and Association of Manufacturers of Chilled Car-Wheels, 21 st NoTember, 1889.) Deficient mileage will be adjusted upon return of the defective wheel, or that part of same containing the defect causing withdrawal from service. Or, if preferred, wheels will be furnished subject to approvedi specification and drop test, without mileage guarantee. iron. (Fonn APPENDIX. 325 (Form 186.) Baldwin Locomotive Works, BURNHAM, PARRY, WILLIAMS, & CO., PHILADELPHIA, P. A., H.S A. No. 5432. Ct,Ass 10-30 E. 40 to 57. SI^ECIFTC^TIO:^ 10 21/3SE. 1&2. LOCOMOTIVK ENGINE GOVERNMENT OF NEW SOUTH WALES. Jan. 17, 1891. GENERAL DESCRIPTION. G-eneral design, illustrated by attached pliotograpli, of Engine Don Pedho, 125. DIMENSIONS. 6— 2X APPEKDIX. 327 Specification of Consolidation Goods Engines. Baidwiit Locomotive "Woees (Btienham, Pabet, Williams & Co.), Philadelphia, P.A., U.S.A (No. 6,432.) (Class 10-36 E. 40 to 57, 10 21/88, E. 1 & 2.) SpECiriCATiON of a Locomotive Engine for the Government of Kew South Wales, January 17, 1891. General Description. G-eneral design illustrated by attached photograph of engine Dom Pedro, 125. Design. Gauge of road — 4 feet 8^ inches in the clear between the rails. Gauge. Extreme width not to exceed 9 feet 6 inches ; extreme height not to exceed 13 feet 6 inches ; 9 feet Limitations. 3 inches across cylinders ; sharpest curve, 528 feet radius ; maximum grade, 176 feet per mile. Diameter of cylinders, 21 inches ; length of stroke, 26 inches. Cylinders: Weight of engine, empty, about 118,000 pounds ; with water and fuel about 138,000 pounds ; tota^ Weight of Engine, weight on djiving-wheels, in running order, about 122,000 pounds ; weight on engine truck, in running order, about 16,000 pounds — 30,500 per axle. Weight of tender, empty, about 33,000 pounds ; with full load of fuel and water about 72,000 pounds, weight of Tender. Diameter of driving-wheels, 51 inches. Driving-wheels. Total wheel-base of engine, 22 feet 4 inches ; rigid wheel-base, 14 feet 3 inches ; distance from wheei-base. centre, of truck to centre of front driving-wheels, 8 feet 1 inch ; centre of front driving-wheels to centre of second pair of driving-wheels, 4 feet 11 inches ; centre of second to centre of third pair of driving- wheels, 4 feet 6 inches ; centre of third to centre of fourth pair of driving-wheels, 4 feet 10 inches. Springs throughout to be of the best crucible cast steel, carefully made and of proper proportions ; Springs, to be carefully tested before being applied. All pins to be case-hardened. The fuel will be bituminous coal. Euei. The toiler. The shell of boiler to be of best homogeneous cast steel, of flange quality, ^ inch thick ; Material, riveted with 1 inch rivets, placed not more than 3i inches from centre to centre for double riveting. Heating Surface— and not more than 2i inches from centre to centre for single riveting. Seams of connecting sheets riro^box 'isssqift double riveted ; longitudinal seams butt-jointed with double covering strips. Plue-sheet, at smoke- rrri .. hox end, of steel, half -inch thick. Throat-sheet one-eighth of an inch thicker than shell of boiler, to prevent undue thinning when flanged. All parts well and thoroughly stayed, and extra welt-pieces riveted to inside of side-sheets, providing double thickness of metal for studs of expansion-braces. All plates planed at edges with round-pointed calking-tool, insuring plates against injury by chipping and calking with sharp-edged tools. Working- steam pressure 160 pounds per square inch ; boiler tested with hot water to a pressure of 200 pounds per square inch, and with steam to a pressure of 180 pounds per sq^uare inch. Waist 64 inches diameter at smoke-box end ; made straight top, with one dome placed centrally. Waist. Dome to be made of best homogeneous cast steel, i inch thick, 31i inches diameter, 30^ inches Dome, high, and flanged at bottom ; to be fitted to boiler by flanging upward the waist-sheet on which dome rests, and flanging outward the bottom of dome to fit the flange of waist-sheet, the two flanges being riveted together by one row of horizontal and one row of vertical rivets. Fire-box to be of best copper, i inch thick ; flue-sheet | and i inch thick ; crown-sheet of copper, Mre-box. \ inch thick'; all plates to be thoroughly annealed after flanging ; flre-box to be 112 inches long by 42 inches wide, by 62 E 58 B inches deep inside. Stay-bolts of copper, one inch diameter, and four inches apart ; the bolts to be screwed into plates stay-bolts, with fine threaded screws, and both ends carefully riveted. Water space 3 sides and back, 4 inches front. Crown supported by iron radial stay-bolts, one inch diameter, not more than four inches from centre to ceniire, screwed through crown-sheet and roof of boiler and riveted over. Brass plug, with fusible centre, to be inserted in crown of fire-box. FjisiWe piug- Eire-brick arch supported by studs tapped into side-sheets of fire-box. Fire-brwit arch. Eire-door oval to be made of cast iron sliding with cast-iron liner ; fire-door opening formed by Fire-box door, flanging and riveting together the inner and outer sheets. Tool guard to be cast on lower part of fire- door frame. r f h Grate-bars of cast iron, of design adapted to fuel, to be properly fitted and arranged. wate-oars. Ash-pan of iron. No. 8 wire-gauge, to be properly secured to bottom of flre-box ; bottom to be Ash-pan. twelve inches clear of grate. Damper to be placed at each end of ash-pan, to be worked from foot-board ; each damper when Dampers, shut to keep itself well closed by its own weight. Mud-holes, for cleaning, to be made in the legs of the boiler at bottom, one in each corner, two Mud-hoies. inches diameter, and one under waist in front end, below the tubes, two and one-half inches diameter, all with brass plugs screwed in ; two clea~ning-plugs two and one-half inches diameter on right side and one on left side level with crown-sheet. Elues to be made of brass. No. 12 and 14 wire-gauge ; 231 in number, 2i inches diameter, 13 feet *'"^s- 4| inches long ; to be fitted at fire-box end with steel thimbles, and carefully expanded and beaded over both flue-sheets. Balanced poppet throttle-valve or regulator to be fitted in dome to vertical arm of dry-pipe and Regulator or throttle, worked by rod and handle from the foot-plate. . i of ■ Steam-pipes, main and branch, leading from dome to cylinders ; main or dry-pipe of copper, i mch steam-p.po». thick, inside 7i inches diameter ; branch pipes, of cast iron, accurately fitted with ground-joints and brass rings. The smoke-box to be round, and extended, with netting, deflecting plate, and spark-ejector; smoke- Smoke-box. box front of cast iron ; the door to be in one piece, to open horizontally ; to be fastened by outside tap- bolts, fitted so that they will draw the door to a close joint. Smoke-stack of iron, taper pattern ; to be perfectly and strongly fitted to smoke-box ; top to be Smokestack, not more than 13 feet 6 inches above top of rails. 6 2 T Machinery. 328 Al'PENDIX. Cylinders. Two engines com- pounded. H.P. Cyls. Ki In. diam. L-P. „ 22 in. „ Strolje 26 in. .. Cyiinder cocks. Pistons. Exhaust-pipea. Steam Jet or blower. Steam-Joints. Cross-heads, Guides. Valve-motion, Machinery. Cylinders to be outside-connected, o£ close-grained iron as hard as can be worked ; each cylinder cast in one piece, with half saddle placed horizontally ; right and left hand cylinders reversible and inter, changeable ; accurately planed, fitted, and bolted together in the most approved manner. Valve-face and steam-chest seat raised above face of cylinder to allow for wear. Cylinders and valves oiled by Nathan 8 inch automatic sight feed lubricator placed in cab, connected to steam-chests by copper pipes running under jacket. Pipes proved to two hundred pounds pressure. Cylinders to be 21 inches inside diameter ; stroke of piston to be 26 inches ; cylinder-covers to have ground-joints ; steam-ports to be 19 inches by 1| inch ; exhaust-ports to be 19 inches by 3 inches. Cylinder-cocks to be fitted to cylinders ; to be operated from foot-board. Piston-heads of cast iron, fitted with approved form of steam packing ; piston-rods of iron or steel ground and keyed to cross-heads, and securely fastened to pistons. Exhaust-pipes to be of cast iron, with three different sizes of nozzles, of suitable capacity. Cock and pipe to be fitted to boiler to turn a jet of steam up the chimney when required ; to be worked from foot-board. All steam-joints to be metal to metal when finished. Cross-heads to be made of cast steel, with brass bearings ; wrist-pins to be 4 inches diameter, and 3J inches long, Gruides to be of steel, cast iron, or wrought iron case-hardened, fitted to wrought-iron guide yoke. Shifting link-motion, graduated to cut ofi equally at all points of the stroke. Links, sliding blocks, pins, lifting-links, and eccentric-rod jaws made of hammered iron, well case-hardened, Sliding-bloeks with long flanges to give ample wearing surface. Eock shaft of wrought iron ; reverse shaft of wrought iron, with arms forged on. Weight of links and eccentric-rods counterbalanced by a spring. Slide-valves balanced pattern with vacuum valves ; valve-stems to clasp valves. No screws or joints inside of steam chests. IT. 8, metallic packing for piston rod and valve stems. Screw reverse gear. Connecting and parallel rods of steam or hammered iron, forged solid. Connecting rods with keys and split brasses. Parallel rods with solid ends and heavy brass bushings. Bushings put in by hydraulic pressure, and well secured from turning in rod. Main rod ends similar to prints 2,088 and 2,089. Crank-pins of steel or wrought iron, of proper sixe, accurately turned and fitted with care. Lubrication of all bearings carefully provided for, and oil-cups attached where required. Wick, spindle, or adjustable needle oil-cups on rods and guides. Supplied by two lOJ inch Seller's 1887 injectors, valves and cages of 'best hard brass, accurately fitted ; cock in feed-pipe regulated from foot-board ; all pipes, feed, steam, and check, of copper." Three safety-valves to be placed on the dome ; to be set to blow off at a pressure of 160 pounds per square inch ; two valves to be furnished with relief lever, one with cap and lock. Steam-gauge of approved make, after being tested, to be fitted on top of boiler, inside of cab. One glass water-guage to be fitted to boiler, in cab, with brass cocks and guard-case of polished iron ; gauge to be of Scotch annealed glass. Three gauge-cocks to be finished and fitted to face of boiler, with drip-funnel of brass. Blow-off cock of brass, to be fitted in fire-box at bottom ; to be worked from foot-board. Frames and Bimning-gear. Engine-frames. Prames of hammered iron, made in two sections, so as to be taken apart in or near the middle for convenience of repairs or shipping. Front rails bolted and keyed to main frames, with front and hack lugs forged on for cylinder connections. Pedestals forged solid with main frame, and protected from wear of boxes by cast-iron gibs and wedges. Pedestal-caps lugged and bolted to bottom of pedestals. Boiler-braces. Waist of boiler securely braced to frames between fire-box and smoke-box by T-irons fitted to boiler aijd bolted to wrought-iron plates extending across. Expansion room. Proper allowance for difierence of expansion of boiler and frame to be made where frame is attached to boiler at fire-box end. Driving -wheels. Driving-wheels. Eight in number, 51 inches in diameter. Centres of cast-iron, turned to 45 inches diameter, and carefully counterbalanced. Tires, Of cast steel, of Standard Steel "Works make, 3 inches thick when finished ; front and back pairs fianged, 5i inches wide, intermediate pairs plain, 6 wide, Aries. Of hammered iron or steel ; journals 8 inches diameter and 8^ inches long ; to be made a true cylinder and carefully fitted. Driving-boxes. Driving-boxes of steeled cast iron, planed true on all sides and slotted to the bearings, which are Lubricators as specified to be tumed and truly fitted ; the upper bearings to have oil-box and cover and grooved diagonally on by Mr. Thow. ^j^g iugi(je ; the lower part to have a sponge-box cast in it, and to be supported by two bolts, easily removable for examination of bearings and journals ; the boxes to be provided with wedges on one side to take up the wear. Engine-Truck. Plan. Centre-bearing swivelling two-wheeled truck with radius bar. Truck-frame of wrought or cast iron, with braces of wrought iron ; fitted with swinging bolster or with fixed centre-bearing. Wheels, Two cast iron centre steel-tired wheels 30 inches diameter. Axles of hammered iron or steel, with journals 5 inches diameter and 10 long. Springs. Of crucible cast steel, tgijjpprpd ia oil ; connected by equalising beams resting on' tops of boxes, Jlg^liolixation. The weight of the locomotive to be distributed upon the wheels by equalizing levers, connecting to the springs and properly designed to give each wheel perfect bearing on the track under all conditions of Bods. Crank-pins, oil-cups. . Feed-water Safety-valves. Steam-gauge, Glass water-gauge. Gauge-cocks. Blow-off cock. Equalization, service. Cab, Substantially built of clear, sound ash, or clear pipe, well seasoned and finished, and properly painted and varnished. Cab to be fitted together with joint-boltg and corner plates, and firmly secured to b^ijer, Tg be provided with suitablei windo^^'g and doors, conveniently arrange(J, ajid glazed with first- ■ '■■ • ' .. , ■ v.M -^ ■ quality APPENDIX. 329 quality double American crystal glass. Doors to open on hinges and provided with strong fastenings to secure them shut or open at any distance. Eoof to be covered with tin, properly put on and painted. Cab made so that it can be taken to pieces to facilitate shipping. r r, j r Running-boards of iron .with nosings of iron, polished or painted. Runmng boards - Hand-rails of polished brass, or of iron polished or painted. Wheel-cover nosings of polished brass Hand-rails and wbe-i- or of iron polished or painted. , ° ^ covers. Cylinders lagged with wood and neatly cased with iron, painted. . Cylinder-head covers of Finish, hydraulic-torged steel or cast iron, painted or polished. Steam chests with cast-iron tops ; bodies cased with iron, pamted. Dome lagged with asbestos or magnesia, with iron, painted, casing on body, and cast- iron top and bottom rings. Boiler lagged with asbestos or magnesia, neatly iacketed with planished iron, secured by brass or iron bands. Screw hand-brskes and Westinghouse automatic air-brake on all driving and tender wheels. Boss Brakes, mfidified shoes. Pilot of iron, strongly braced with iron, arranged to suit buffers. Piiot. Draw-bar of wrought iron, strongly fastened to centre of forward buffer beam. Draw-bar. Engine and tender fitted with spring buffers and draw-hook, similar to tracings 2,086 and 2,087. Buffers and couplings Turton buffers same as furnished Beyer, Peacock, and Co. Each locomotive shall be erected complete at the works of the builder, and a trial under steam be Testing, made sufficient to show that it is in perfect working order, and that proper clearances and adjustments have been provided. Engine and tender to be properly painted ; to be neatly striped when required ; to be varnished Painting, with three coats of best varnish. Engine to be furnished with front and back sand-boxes, not • placed on boiler, gong, whistle, cab- Furniture and tools, seats, and cab-seat cushions. To be provided with a complete set of wrenches to fit all nuts and _ bolts, including one large and one small monkey-wrench, six files, assorted ; one gauge-lamp and holder", one brass torch, three iron and six wood tube-plugs, one tube-plug holder, six cast-steel chisels, assorted ; two pin-punches, one chipping hammer, one soft hammer, one copper tallow-kettle, one copper tallow-bucket, one brass oil- can, two oil-feeders, two , galvanised buckets, one pick, one slice-bar, one rake, one fire-shovel, and two screw traversing jacks. Cab tool-boxes with locks and keys. To be carefully taken apart and boxed ready for shipment. All the bright work, such as Packing, connecting-rods, pistons, straps, eccentrics, guides, cross-heads, cylinder-covers, bolts,etc., to be well covered with and protected from oxidation by a mixture of tallow, beeswax, and white-lead put on while warm ; these parts to be then packed in boxes and securely braced, and not packed with shavings, hay, straw, or any similar material. The bright work that cannot be boxed, such as crank-pins, journals of axles and eccentrics to be coated same as other bright work, then wrapped with stout canvas, tied on and tarred. Packing-boxes to be made of suitable material and strongly hooped with iron. Packing-list, in duplicate, to be made by builders, showing weight and measurement, together with P»oking-iist. names and number of boxes, bundles, and pieces. A drawing to be furnished for guidance in re-erecting the engine. General features of Construction. . AH principal parts of engine accurately fitted to gauges and templates, and thoroughly Gauges. interchangeable. All finished movable nuts and all wearing surfaces of machinery of steel, or iron, case-hardened, case-hardening. All threads on bolts to United States standard ; such bolts as require them to have jam-nuts. Aiioy. Tender. Tank of steel or iron, strongly put together, with angle iron corners and well braced. Top, inside Tank, and bottom plates J inch thick ;o utside plates ^ inch thick ; riveted with three-eighths inch rivets, one and one-quarter inch pitch. Capacity: 3,600 gallons (of 231 cubic inches.) Shape of tank: wedge, square-top, same as capacity, passenger engines. Tender-frame substantially bujlt of channel iron, strongly braced. Tender-floor to be of wrought- Frame, iron plates, one-quarter inch thick. Two four-wheeled centre-bearing trucks ; additional bearings at sides of back truck. Pattern of Trucks, truck : square wrought-iron frames, equalized. Springs, of crucible cast-steel, tempered in oil. springs. Wheels, cast-iron centres, with steel tires 36 inches diameter. wheels. Axles of hammered iron or steel ; journals, 4 inches diameter by 8 inches long, Si inches wheel fit. A^ies and journals. Oil-tight boxes with brass bearings, accurately finished and fitted. Joumai-boxes. Brakes on both trucks, operated by suitable brake-shaft at forward end of tender. Brakes. Tank-valves with strainers conveniently arranged, in front end of tank at bottom to connect with Tank-vaives. feed-pipes, and worked from foot-board by levers at top of tank. Tender connected with engine by indiarubber hose, one on each side, of best quality and proper size. Hose-connections. Two safety-chains to connect tender with engine ; also two for each truck, connecting front corners safety-chains, of trucks with tank-frame. Two tool-boxes, of iron, strongly made, with good locks, and strong strap hinges ; to be placed on Tool-boxes, top of tender. Particular care to be taken that all bearings of importance have good oil-cups, or cellars, capable of Lubrication, holding a proper worsted syphon or other eflScient means of feeding oil. All oil-cups should have proper covers, well secured and dust-proof, as line is very dusty and hotbearings very common. Especial care to be taken with boiler, rod, and frame work. Consider interchangeability with Workmanship, previous engines. Tire section, as tracing 2,090. BAJiDWIS- 330 appendix. Baldwin Locomotive Wobks. Physical Tests of Materials. All materials used in the construction of the locomotive shall be of the best quality of their respective Kinds, carefully inspected, and subject tp the following tests. Notwithstanding these tests, should any defects be developed in working, the correspondjing part will be rejected. Bojier-iron. AH boiler iron will be specified C. H. No. 1 flange quality, and must be made from the best charcoal blooms. A careful examination will be made of every sheet, and none will be accepted that show mechanical defects. Apie'cDfprtestingtobe -A- test piece to be furnished from each sheet, to be tested.' Such test strips must show an ultimate turnished trom each tensile strength with the grain of not less than 50,000 pounds, an ultimate tensibl^ strength across the grain of not less Ihan 45,000 pounds, and must show a ductility, measured by elongation, of not less than 20 per cent. Should any of the test pieces fail to fulfil the above requirements, the corresponding sheet will be rejected. Should any plates develop defects in working, they will be rejected. Each plate must be stamped with the maker's name and the guaranteed tensile strength and elongation as above. Boiler and fire-box steel. A careful examination will be made of every sheet, and none will be accepted that show mechanical, .defects. Test strips taken lengthwise from each sheet and without annealing should have a tensile strength of 55,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of 30 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Sheets will not be accepted if the test shows a tensile strength less than 50,000 pounds, or greater than 65,000 pounds per square inch, nor if the elongation falls below 25 per cent. Should any sheets develop defects in working, they will be rejected, rire-box copper. Copper plates for fire-boxes must be rolled from best quality Lake Superior ingots ; they must • have a tensile strength of not less than 80,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of from 20 to 25 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Test strips must be furnished with each fire-box for testing. Iron and steoi atay-boits Iron or steel f or stay-bolts and braces must have an ultimate tensile strength of not more than and boiler braces. 60,000 pounds nor less than 50,000 pounds per square inch, with an elongation of not less than 30 per cent., nor undergo a reduction of area of fractured section of more than 35 per cent. Copper stay-bolts. Copper stay-bolts must be manufactured from the best Lake Superior ingots ; they must have an ultimate tensile strength of not less than 30,000 pounds per square inch, and an elongation of from 20 to 25 per cent., in section originally 2 inches long. Boiler tubes of steel or All boiler tubes must be carefully inspected and be free from pit-holes or other imperfections. "■""• Each tube must be subjected to an internal hydraulic pressure of not less than 500 pounds per square inch by the manufacturers before delivery. They must be rolled accurately to the gauge furnished by the Baldwin Locomotive Works, filling the gauge to a plump fit. They must be expanded in the boiler without crack or flaw. When tested, iron or steel tubes must show a tensil6 strength of not less than 55,000 pounds per square inch, and a ductility of not less than 15 per cent. Boiler tubes of brass or Tubos of brass or copper to be of uniform circumferential thickness and solid drawn ; to he pipes!"^' '"^' *"'' to .-1 rH I-H CO • CO CO I-H 5 i>eoi-Hoo :■* iNcot^oo :« OS 10 00 CO 7 4 1 5 3 13 4 2 OS CO 3 17 8 18 1 7 14 10 1> 05 o : lo : CO ; ooo : oio : "*co : i-i . 4 10 9 "5 14 "e 2 12 9 CO OS CO CO ■*rHcoQ -to -00 : OS 10 S5 m ■*o : "5 : OS : I-H : ■* : lo : fH g ^ 6 10 3 5 5 20 12 3 CO !>. 00 CO CO :e« oooto CD :co-* ■<(iio >o :i»-*oos 1— t . I 10 12 1 9 1 8 14 19 3 IN 10 I-H . 10-* : I-H ; ■*rH ■ OS I-H I-H 00 coco 2rt CO Ir- rH 15 18 9 1 1 3 17 7 8 10 6 6 OS IN CO I-H to G 1 \1 ■.X : b H 'J 4 1 it I: 3 5S E I i 3 : ^1 i ■ ■ 342 APPENDIX. Alteeations, &c., debited to the Department. — 20 Consolidation Engines. No. ot order. Date issued. Particulars of work. Date of completion. Expenditure ■ to 11th February, 1892. Expenditure from nth February, 1892, to 27th March, Total expenditure 27th March, 1892. 8,344 3,386 T43 3,327 22/9/91 6/10/91 21/9/91 16/9/91 3,367 30/9/91 3,496 2/12/91 3,330 24/9/91 3,376 2/10/91 3,424 29/10/91 3,578 27/1/92 3,594 1/2/92 3,652 3/3/92 Fitting lamps and irons, also coal boards Fitting one additional water gauge, and carrying main air-pipe to front Repairing tender bogie hook, two diagonal stays, and arm of tender brake-shaft Fitting hand-rails to tenders, and making 20 wrenches for oil cups Fixing two foot-boards to each engine Alterations to bolt in large end of connecting rod Sliield plates for fire door-rings : Making frames for notices in cabs Strainers in manholes of tanks Alterations to engine brake-shoes Alterations to reversing gear Providing additional water carrying capacity, tender No. 497 3/12/91 3/12/91 28/1/92 3/12/91 28/1/92 28/1/92 25/2/92 £ s. d. 34 10 10 81 6 5 27 14 4 38 2 22 14 1 10 6 5 1 11 8 20 6 9 2 18 11 237 1 £ rf. d. 4 7 9 4 17 9 18 18 4 75 13 5 103 17 3 £ s. d. 34 10 10 85 14 2 27 14 4 38 2 3 22 14 2 1 10 6 6 5 2 1 11 8 20 6 9 7 16 8 18 18 4 75 13 5 340 18. 3 Shop Eepairs to 20 Consolidation Engines. N6. of 1 engine. Where repaired. Details of repairs. Wages. Stores. Charges. Total. 483 486 488 492 Bathurst Eveleigh Eveleigh Bathurst Eveleigh Eveleigh Repairing damage caused by collision at Kerr's Creek.. Firebox examined, and leading tire lined up Firebox examined, tubes repaired, and stays caulked... Extensive repairs caused by engine being in collision ... Ash-pan taken down ; 230 ferrules taken out at firebox end ; 7 tubes taken out and brazed, tubes fitted ; all tubes expanded and ferruled both ends ; 257 crown stays caulked; seams of copper tuble plate caulked . . ,' £ s. d. 64 2 S 10 11 8 11 4 27 2 16 18 2 68 6 £ s. d. 13 1 2 1 1 12 2 £ s. d. 14 2 11 2 12 3 2 14 2 £ s. d. 78 18 7 14 6 15 6 8 27 2 498 1 1 10 7 10 9 4 4 6 17 1 22 4 6 501 Left cylinder repaired, damaged by collision at Eveleigh 92 11 4 197 15 4 159 5 2 11 19 10 8 3 9 40 13 11 31 3 250 9 1 Less cost of repairs through colli- sions and derailments, and not due to faulty workmanship. No. of engine. Amount. 483 492 501 £ s. d. 78 18 7 27 2 92 11 4 198 11 11 I £ 38 10 2 3 16 1 9 10 11 51 17 2 APPENDIX. 343 o H R H o EC o o H a> o I £ s. d. 144 8 6 106 " "6 7 r-t C5' 1 TJ : . . . . 1 »:^ n M M M ^ ^ : ««§ 1— ( OS 1 M I i : i : i : i : ■ : i -6 1 -d^ »■* i M 1 ! i : : : ■ : ^^■- ■■•■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■ to 1 M : : : : i : : • I ; : : 1 m ::::::•::!: : © f^ 1. » : : : : : r . I 1 .* .' : 1 o 1 K ::;::::;■:: : 6 .J3 1 ■a -d ^ M I i jiM ::::::: : o ^ M ■:::;::;:;: : 1 »J ; : ; . : : : I : ^ J 1 1 -d °» •••:::: i ::: : 1 -d" 00 to TJ CO 00 -0= m«o i ! i : i : i i : ; i =«3 ' ' ' to 00 -* S5 TS " M i i M M i i M 00 ^ ^ »5 ; : 12 : : : i i i i i =« ■ ■ s 05 (— ( 00 Eveleigh Shops „ R'g Shed Penrith Bathurst Nyngan Pictou Goulburn TTaTden Junee Newcastle Murrurundi ... Armidale 1 p. ID P=i bD a ■a p^ . d t^Ol CO O tf )tD rt 1— t 'l« ^ : (H OS C5 -< rtC )!>::: im o H tji : : ; .* : "* trt «"=) 05 ^ -^too O 1 m ■^l« CO : : ■ : <^' trt fH fH O CO ^ COOt^ m cs ^ :oosin : : : : lo ^ tii ototo n CO to rH ^ ra COOlC i i ; : 2 trt i-i ^ to 00 • OOiO 00 cs cs « (N iO !>• : : : : lo w o ^ o (N • -* CO ^ 00 t^ ^3 r-l g ■* » OfOCO(M 1— 1 : : : : lo CJ O^ INO ■* -* U3 as OS w toco t^o- : : : : m tt^ IC^CO -H COCC i^ Td ^ S rH -^ 00 «0 tH : : : : th ? til coocoo o o ^ . r^ : : : r- 1— 1 r-1 ^ : ; : >— t Crt COM ■= - s (N § m COOO (N : : : : t^ ■ • - ■ rH « rHgO rH ^. otoo to 1— i m TUt^CO 1—1 : : : I '* O OWN OD o o n' CO 00 o osc : I : ■ " Cfi ^^^ 2"^ 00 ^ . CO t- o o ~ p— 1 r-^ ai mcooo-tji 1— I 1—1 • ; • : ''' qj O OiCO^ o ^ Ol -d ^^° " 00 OD m «oco : ; : : os : : : : ^-^ til nHlr~-* e^ ^ (N ^ tX •* t^ CO 00 •<* m OOU3 : : : : >o ; : : : •"< trt P^OSIN to 00 -* (Q OOCCO" 1— ( : ; : : ""^ trt ^-o § . OiCO CO 00 w COnH 1— 1 : : : : oo '^^ ss; ■* -* o o o s IQ O r-l : : : : rn tfl 5;t- ■* -d ° ° o CO 00 ■* a CO rH O 1— t : : : : ^ =fl O PH CJ K% \ : : : : : tfl 9 ja : ^» : Junee Newcastle . Murrijrundi Armidale . Totals ^1 = §1; PMfC % I \9- '■■I f: Mi APPENDIX, Alteeations Debited to Department — 10 Dubs' Engines. No. of shop^ order. Particulars of work. Cost. Average Wages. Stores. Charges. Total. per engine. 541 £ a. d. 6 12 1 249 6 4 13 16 4 58 7 2 59 17 4 4 2 6 £ s. d. £ 8. d. 1 13 62 6 7 3 9 1 14 11 9 14 19 4 1 7 £ 8. d. 8 5 1 519 16 10 20 6 4 81 13 2 192 8 5 3 1 1132 \ 1321 ■ 2536 Attaching hand-brake8 and additional work... Fixing stays in cabs 208 3 11 3 11 8 14 3 117 11 4 2624 Alterations to bogies, regulator rods, &o Alterations to axle-boxes, fitting new brasses, and raising bogies of tenders. Alterations to regulators, bell-orank, and crank-pins. £ 2625 3470 392 1 9 337 10 5 98 4 827 12 6 82 15 3 Shob Eepaies. — 10 Dubs' Engines.- -4 Class. (Exclusive of Eepairs of Damages caused by Collisions and Derailment.) No. Of engine. Where repaired. Wages. Stores. Charges. Total. 436 Eveleigh.. )} ... »l )> J» £ S. d. 11 11 11 15 12 13 58 6 9 11 5 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 10 £ 8. d. 19 18 19 10 20 15 19 5 7 13 3 5 19 18 8 15 10 6 13 10 6 £ 8. d. 2 17 9 2 18 9 3 3 3 14 11 8 2 16 3 2 18 2 18 2 18 £ B. d. 34 6 9 437 34 3 9 438 36 11 3 440 441 442 444 445 Turningwheels, refittingbrasseSj &c., and general repairs it n ^ »» »» »i J» )» )> }} •■■ • >» n »i £ 92 4 27 4 8 34 8 6 30 4 23 4 140 6 3 141 11 8 35 1 8 316 19 7 APPENDIX. 345 □Q - 61 ^ •a »-H M? m Is, tri i 'd t- o m 05 ■§ «« lO H « -a ■* »rf , A o tH «rt ^ ■d ■* :$■ m o trt g -s 1 «; =rt S -d CO p-H £j 00 S3 il! ,u =rt ss s fi -a 00 43 M »— 1 !>; ■<* 5 «rt & n v tS o ■s o D3 -* § trt o d cS -a u % M CQ g ^ s t* [z; ^d CO 00 . r-H =rt g -d 05 t-^ . « tH trt ^ -d 05 (O CO ^ =rt ^ ns e3 Pi « 0} j5 fe W 1 t3 OS S o 1:^ o 1— ( rdN m OS 00 ■* ojO t- o 00 r- ■* «rt^ o g? -JIN 00 03 J>. m m"5 ■>* OS OS ^ i-H trt'* 85 o g? V rjjCN 00 I-H o> fA HI'S 00 o OS . I-H trt'* rH .—1 rdlN 00 OS : t^ f-H „-o M IN : CO ^ t-H "— < 1 =«■* s o : ; CO T3«l 00 (N I-H (—1 W) Q njin o r-l t— 1 OS ^ l-( t— 1 I-H = CO I-H g raffl (M cc CO CO ■* i «« CO oc o I-H o CO I-H «« CO I-H CO i-H rH ^ t« r/ b r. ^ 1 ^ J a fl 0) °^ 1 1 1 1 1 g 1 1 i H fS ^ ^ (1- c n >= ^ IS < 1 3i6 APPENDIX, Return of Broken Rails on Portion of "Western Line. Grovermnent Eailways of New Soutt Wales, Sir, Secretary's Office, Sydney, 2l8t June, 1892. In accordance witH the request of your Commission, conveyed in your letter of the 13th instant, I am directed by the Eailway Commissioners to forward herein ijiformation with reference to the number of broken rails prior to the introduction of the Baldwin engines, and since they have been regularly running on the Western Line, say from 1st November, 1891. With respect to the section of line between Penrith and Bathurst it will be seen that oti the most difiBeult part of the line, viz., between 34 miles and 114 miles, only one rail has been broken in the three years, and that before the Baldwin engines arrived ; whilst between 127 miles and 143 miles three rails were broken before and only one since these engines were introduced, although the road is growing gradually older. With these exceptions, the whole of tbe breakages, Penrith to Bathurst, have occurred between 114 miles and 127 miles. On this section the rails are chiefly 75lb. iron rails, approaching the period of exhaustion. This portion of the line has been for some time past under extensive renewal, and within a short period the whole of the old rails will be replaced with' new steel rails. The result of the running of the Baldwin engines can be better gauged — so far as broken rails extend — by the experience with the 71ilb. steel rails, between Bathurst and Dubbo, as shown on the returns submitted. For easy reference I forward attached sketches showing the broken rails for each period, with the mileage, &c. I have to regret that there has been some little delay in preparing the information, but the returns available did not clearly indicate which were broken rails, andi^ inquiry had to be made in each case to ascertain facts, the returns which it had been usual to submit including rails whicb showed flaws, &c. It is the practice in the Existing Lines Branch to take out any rail which may show any defect, no matter how slight, in the way of flaw or fracture, and to submit such in a return of broken rails. It may, however, be possible for a flaw or fracture to exist in a rail for months, or even years, and of late rather more flawed rails have be,en detected than was previously the case. This is largely due to the fact that so much has been done in the way of re-ballasting, re-sleepering, and lifting, and by this means faults which may have been unnoticed or covered up by ballast for some lime have been detected after the opening up of the road. Where the rails have broken between 115 miles 32 chains and 118 miles 75 chains (16 per cent, of the whole), the rails weighed 75 lb. per yard, chairs 27 lb. each in weight, and the ironbark sleepers, iji the majority of instances, were closely spaced. ■ I have, &c., H. McLACHLAN, The Secretary, Eoyal Commission, Baldwin Engines. Secretary. GrEEAT Westben Bailwat — Statement showing Broken Rails. Nearest Station, Dis- tance. Date broken. .a 6b it's Descrip- tion—Steel or Iron. Brand. Date laid in. a 5^ Feb., 1889 1887 1873 1880 1880 1872 1880 1880 1880 1880 1872 1881 1S84 188fi 1874 18)56 1S80 1871 1872 1886 1H88 1872 1880 1881 3 1872 3 1872 3 1S88 3 1885 3 1880 3 1880 3 1891 3 1891 3 1880 3 n 1870 3 1880 3 1876 3 1874 3 1S78 3 1875 3 1870 3 1886 3 1881 2 4 1875 2 6 1879 2 6 1880 2 4i 1880 2 6 1881 3 1 1881 3 1 1883 2 4 1892 2 10 Bemarks. MillthorjK). Orange Locksley . . . Dripstone . . . Locksley . . , Store Creek , Wellington Geurie Mary Vale . . , Tarana Blayney Spring, Hill Locksley Huntley.... Orange . . . . Tarana — Eydal Millthorpe.. Blayney Rydal Dripstone . . Blayney .... Locksley . . Millthorpe . Apsley . . . Miunbil . . . Locksley . Millthorpe.. Orange Bowentells Warne .... Tarana . . . . Locksley . . Orange Tarana . . . . Orange Tarana Orange Kerr's Creek. Mumbil Brewongle .. . Tarana 176 76 190 .36 127 30 238 50 239 1-26 40 222 75 249 20 259 40 260 121 60 169 63 175 41 184 30 129 63 189 73 197 118 114 6 181 43 172 2 114 65 241 30 176 13 125 70 126 70 126 38 181 62 244 67 235 125 63 179 60 196 98 56 215 121 56 130 6 196 117 8 118 30 196 117 50 115 32 117 43 118 75 197 207 20 237 132 14 117 14 19 Dec, 1889 19 „ 1889 18 Feb., 1890 9 Mar., 1890 6 ,, 1800 20 April, 1890 20 „ 1890 30 June, 9 July, 10 „ 8 Aug., 23 „ 23 2 Sept., 15 „ 23 Oct., 25 „ 26 „ 27 Nov., 7 „ 3 „ 1 ., 14 Dec, 18 Jan., 27 „ 14 Feb., 2 April, 14 May, 16 June, 13 July, 21 Aug., 31 „ 8 Sept., 17 „ 1 Oct., 20 „ 21 „ 13 Nov., 19 „ 1 Dec, 3 „ 12 „ 9 Jan., 16 „ 16 „ 28 ,„ 12 Feb., 7 April, 21 „ 27 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1890 1891 1891 1891 1891 1890 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1891 1892 1892 1892 1892 1892 1892 1892 1892 lb. 71i 75 71J r^ 75 71i 71i 7li l^i 76 71i ^* 76 71i ni 75 75 71J 75 7U 71} 75 76 75 71J 71i 71i 80 7H 76 ni 75 75 75 75 76 75 75 75 71i ni 75 76 steel 1) Iron steel Iron Steel f) Iron Steel Iron Steel Iron Steel Iron Steel Iron Steel )> Iron Steel Iron Steel Iron Steel Iron Steel Iron B. V. & Co West Cumbld. N.S.W.G. VIII. Parkgate S. J.G. IX.77 Dowlais 1.77 B. V. 4; Co Dowlais 11.77 S.J.G. 77 I( DowIais-2.77 Parkgate B. V. &Co. ll.SO Darlington Milton May West Cxuiiberland Dowlais 77 B.V. &W. P West Cumberland Darlington Parkgate S.J.C. 77 B.V. &Co Parkgate B.v.w.p. y.y.v.'.'.y.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.y. West Cumberland S J.C. 9-77 S.J.C. IX.77 Cammell Sheifield toughened steel. West Cumberland Dowlais X17-7 B.V.W.P. ..' Dowlais XII. 77 Parkgate S.J.G. 77 .''.'!.'.'.".'!!!".!.'! L.W. &B Parkgate S.J.G. 77 Parkgate Dowlais 77 Dowlais XII Dowlais X.77 Parkgate Old flaw 8 feet from end. „ 2 „ Flaw in rail. Existing flaw. Broken on edge of puncbed hole when spiking back. Broken where hole had been punched. Existing flaw, A clean break. Flaw in flange. An old flaw. Broken where punched. A clean break. Flaw in rail. Broken in centre ; no flaw. An old flaw. Existing flaw. Clean break, 4 feet from end. Old flaw, 4 feet from end. 4 feet „ Clean break, 3 feet from end. „ 2 ft. 2. in. from end. Old flaw, broken in centre. Existing flaw, 4 ft. 9 in. from en I. Old flaw, 5^ inches from end. New break, 2 ft. 10 in. from end. Broken in middle. , , ftsh-plate holp, 6 inches from end. „ middle. New breaks, 8 feet and 1 ft. 6 in. from end. Old flaw_, 6 ft. 8 in. from end. Existing flaw, 14 inches from end. Glean break, 2 feet from end. New break, 8 „ ,, Old flaw, 16 „ „ Clean break, 7 ft. 7 in. from end. „ 7 ft. 6 in. „ „ 8 feet „ 1 ft. 3 in. „ „ 4 ft. 7i In. „ 2 ft. 8 in. „ Old flaw, 8 ft. 6 in. from end. „ 1 tt. 8 in. „ Clean break, 3 ft. 4 in. from end. I* A second rail was broKes ^t t^Js place 9^ving to first accident. APPENDIX. 347 Messrs. Kidd and Pollock's Report on Trial of American 10-wlieel Passenger Engine. To the Commissioners of Eailways, — o j f>, t,^ ,P Gentlemen, Sydney, 21 May, 1892. all the remaimng passenger vehicles on four-wheeled bogies. All these whells Sre 3 feet dTai ' The general dimensions of the engine are as follows :— diameter. Diameter of cylinder ... 2i" stpke „ ... ;;; ■;; 24" Diameter of drivers '" gi// Area of firegrate ... . n^.n r. . Ha ■ ji i. / s ^7'7 square feeh . o. m lire-box (copper) 105-6 tubes (brass) ]". !;!l,822'5 Total ,. Tractive force per lb. of M. E. P. per square inch Maximum boiler pressure Total weight of engine in running order, with f glass of cold water and sand-boxes full — "Weight on driving wheels bogie „ Total weight of engine Weight of tender empty „ 3,000 gallons water „ 5 tons coal ... Maximum weight of tender ... Maximum weight in running order, engine and tender ... 90 7 The weight of the train was ascertained by weighing each vehicle on the previous dav on an accurate weighbridge at Eveleigh. An addition varying from 2 tons to 1 ton 15 cwt. was made for the weight or the passengers carried. The incline of 1-40 on-which the trials ISTo. 1, 2, and 5, were made, was 2i miles long, and there were four curves of 16 chains (1,056 feet) radius on the first mile. ' The incline of 1-30 on which the trials 3 and 4 were made, was about 2 miles long, having at the foot an incline of 1-33. The trials were made on the combined length 2f miles of these gradients. The position of these inclines is shown on the accompanying section. The train approached the foot of these gradients at about the speed usual in ordinary running. The weather was fine with a dry rail, and no slipping was observed throughout the trials. The full train (179 tons 5 cwt.) was run from Sydney to Campbelltown by one engine, but two engines of tlie English express type (four wheels coupled with inside cylinders) were required to haul the train from Campbelltown to Pieton over the 1-70 gradients between these points. It is noteworthy that the ten-wheeled Baldwin engine then took the same train unassisted over the 1-40 gradients between Pieton and Pieton Lakes, thus very clearly demonstrating its superior power. The first trial was made with a load of 179 tons 5 cwt. up a grade of 1-40. The indicated horse power developed and tractive force exerted during the trial being as follows : — ...1,928'1 h = = 171-0 lb.* 160 lb. s Tons cwt ... 43 11 ... 14 16 ... 58 7 Tons cwt. 13 12 13 8 5 ... 32 TABLE L Eirst test up 1-40, May 15tb, 1892. Tons cwt. qr. Actual load, exclusive of engine and tender 179 5 2 Stipulated load, as per letter to Baldwin Works, September 22, 1890 176 0. Excess of actual over stipulated load 3 5 2 No. indicator Mile-post Speed in miles Boiler pressure. Initial pressure M.E.P. I.H.P. Tractive power. Resistance in lb. per ton card. per liour. of whole train lb. lb. lb. 1 54i 31- 155 139-5 63-4 996- 10,'841 15-79 2 54g 22- 155 139-5 95-6 959- 16,347 4-62 3 54J 19-56 155 144- 103-4 922- 17,681 9-51 4 554 17-47 150 140- 105. 838- 17,955 10-59 5 55§ 17-64 150 138- 102-8 826- 17,578 9-18 6 65J 17- 147 137- 105-5 817. 18,040 10-9 7 56i 15-93 140 134- 102- 740-9 17,442 8-78 8 561 15-79 135 127 5 101- 728- 17,271 S-05 ■ Allowing a deduction for the area of tlie piston-rod. 6—3 B Witiiout tills deduction, tlie tractive co-efficient is 173-5 lb. The 348 APPENDIX. The aoeompanyingtables give an analysis of the performance of the engine during the trials. It will he seen that the boiler pressure was better maintained on the 1-30 than on the 1-40 gradient. This is probably attributable wholly to the difference in the condition of the fire. The engine commenced the ascent of the 1-40 gradient after running down hill slowly tender first, and standing for some time at Picton. The fire thus became partially dead, and was not thoroughly ignited in the shoTt distance run before reaching the gradient. In ordinary working this would not occur, as the firemen usually tijke the opportunity of building up the fire and getting it in good condition for rapid steaming when approaching a heavy gradient. The engine approached the 1-30 gradient after having run for some miles on slightly-rising gradients, the blast had consequently thoroughly ignited the fire, and the engine maintained steam, and in some cases showed an increase of speed and tractive. power towards the summit. Had the engine been running the regular mail or express trains she would have approached the 1-40 gradient under the same condition, and would doubtless have carried a higher pressure, and obtained a higher speed, especially on the trial with a load of 157 tons up 1-40. The distance run on the trials was 21 miles 10 chains. The coal used was (Metropolitan) of fair quality, and the total amount burned 91 cwt. 2 qrs. 21 lb. = 82-38 lb. per mile. TABLE II. Second test up, 1-40. Tons cwt. qrs. Actual load, exclusive of engine and tender 157 12 2 Stipulated load as per letter to the Baldwin Works, September 22, 1890 152 Excess of actual over stipulated load 5,12 2 No. indicator card. Mile-post where taken. Speed in miles per hour. BMlcr pressure. Initial pressure. M.E.P. I.H.P. Tractive power. Resistance in lb. per ton of whole train 9 54i 2D-8 lb. 155 lb. 141-5 lb. 56-8 lb. 772 lb. 9,712 - 16-8 10 541 ■ 21-43 150 133- 79-4 776 13,577 - 1-09 11 5iJ 19-147 143 134- 91-7 801 15,680 + 7-22 12 55 18-75 145 135- 94-7 808 16,193 9-3 13 53i 18-55 . 150 138-5 101-12 855 1*7,291 13-7 U 551 18-75 150 139- 95-4 815 ■16,313 9-77 15 5GJ 19-35 150 138- 98-43 872 16,829 11-839 TABLE III. Third Test,>p 1-33 and 1-30. Actual loa.l, exclusive of engine and tender Stipulated load as per letter to Baldwin Works, September 22, 1890 Excess of actual over stipulated load ' Tons. cwt. qr. 121 19 2 120 1 19 2 No. of indicator card. Mile-post where taken. Speed in miles per hour. Boiler pressure. Initial pressure, M.E.P. I. II. P. Tractive power. Resistcnce.in lb per ton of whole train 16 17 18 G6i 661 Grade, 1 -33. lb. lb. lb. lb. lb. 30-3 160 143 58-4 812 9,986 20-83 26-08 160 147 83-55 1017-3 14,629 -1- 1-01 21-95 150 140 92 -3 925-6 15,817 6-6 Grade, 1 -30. 19 66 20-45 155 142 97-85 912-0 16,732 4-12 20" 67 - 17-64 155 144 107-5 864-7 18,382 11-8 21 67i 17-45 160 144 106-6 849-8 18,228 11-17 22 671 16-82 155 145 109-7 841-8 18,758 13-6 23 684 17-47 153 142 108-4 863-5 18,536 12-6 24 68| 1818 150 136 103-8 860 17,749 - 8-9 APPENDIX. 349 TABLE IV. i'ourth Test up 1-33 and 1-30. Tbns. cwt. qrs. Actual load, exclusive of engine and tender 144 2 2 Stipulated load as per letter to Baldwin Works, September 22, 1890 144 Excess of actual over stipulated load 2 2 No. of indicator card. Mile-post whevc talten. Speed in miles per hour. Boiler pressure. Initial pressure. M.E.H. l.H.P. Tractive Power. Resistance in lb. per ton of Whole Train. 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 651 66J 66i Grach, 1-S3. lb. lb. lb. lb. lb. 31 'S? 160 138-5 61 878 10,431 -23-1 25-35 155 141-5 89-1 1,029 15,236 - 2-12 19-56 155 141-0 95-35 850 16,304 + 1-9 18-75 155 143-5 104-8 896 17,920 8-8 661 16- 67J 15- 671 15- 671 14- 68| 14- 68i 14- 68g 14- 68J 14- -82 -38 ■65 -87 -81 -062 -4 -7 155 155 155 160 150 155 145 Grade, 1- 144 145 145 145-5 140 145-5 146 137-5 112 116 113 114-3 112-5 113-9 114-9 112-85 860 815 807 774-5 750 730-3 754-5 756-4 19,152 19,836 19,323 19,545 19,237 19,476 19,647 19,297 7-4 10-3 8-73 8-22 7-7 8-7 9-32 8-00 TABLE V. Eifth Test, up 1-40. Tons cwt. qrs. Actual load, exclusive of engine and tender 157 12 2 Stipulated load as per letter to Baldwin works, 22 September, 1890 j.... 152 Excess of actual over stipulated load 5 12 2 No. of Mile-post where taken. Speed in Resistance in lbs. Indicator Card. miles per hour. Boiler pressure. Initial pressure. M.E.P. l.H.P. Tractive power. per ton of whole train. lb. lb. 37 54i 31-00 155 141-5 54-90 776-0 9,387 18-15 38 54| 26-86 150 1400 77-90 954-0 13,320 2-29 39 54 20-93 150 136-0 93-20 889-0 15,937 8-26 40 54| 21-17 150 136-5 91-80 866-0 15,697 7-29 41 55g J 9 -56 155 139-0 96-70 862-0 16,535 10-67 42 55f 20-22 155 139-5 99-80 920 17,065 12-81 43 551 19-78 150 135-0 97-15 870-0 16,612 10-98 44 56A 20-00 145 130-0 97-00 884-6 16,587 10-88 45 561 20-93 140 118-5 88-46 844-0 15,126 4-99 The indicator diagrams -were taken by means o£ a " Crosby " indicator. The L.H. diagrams are from the front end of the cylinder, and the E.H. diagrams from the back. The pipes connecting the cylinder ends and the indicator were of copper 1 in. diameter, reduced to i in. where they joined the breeches piece. They were carefully lagged with asbestos and spun yarn. "We regret that the position and design of the cylinder necessitated these pipes being so long, viz., about 4 ft. 11 in. at the front end, and 5 ft. 6 in. at the back, and we are of opinion that an allowance of 5 per cent, should be added to the mean pressure indicated on the cards to allow for friction and condensation. In support of our opinion we would refer to some trials reported in the proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, England, January, 1890, in which 10 per cent, was considered a fair allowance, and in this case the pipes were only 3 ft. long, as against 5 ft. long. On the evening previous to the trials we rode on the engine from Picton to Campbelltown, attaining a speed of about 45 miles per hour. The engine ran very steadily and took the curves very smoothly, there being a noticeable absence of shock on entering the curves. In conclusion we would observe that we consider the engines to be very satisfactory in design and workmanship, while the haulage power and steadiness in running leave nothing to be desired. We would further observe that the maximum tractive power obtained on the trial of 1-30, viz , 19 836 lb exceeded the maximum recorded in the trial of the Baltimore and Ohio engine (viz., 19,064 lb.), which is nearly 4 tons heavier, and has larger heating surface and cylinder capacity. We beg to enclose four .packages, containing in all forty-five indicator cards, being the originals taken during each test. We have, &c., HECTOE KIDD, A.M.I.C.E.,M,I.M.E. EOBT. POLLOCK, President, Engineering Association. Mcasurf ments 350 AlPPENDIX. Measurements of Platforms sliowing clearance. The following shows the measurement from centre of cylinder to top of platforms, Homebush to Bathurst ; also measurement from gauge fixed on cab to outer edge of station veran-dahs. Cylinders. Outer edge of ^Cab; Cylindera. Outer edge of Cab C. of cylinder to top of platform. gfauge to top of platform. Edge of gauge to verandah. C. of Cylinder to top of platform. gouge to top of platform. EJffe of gauge to verandah c. F. c. ¥. 0. F. 0. F. C. F. C. F. in. in. in. in. in. in. in in. in. in. in. in. Homcbusli 14| 1 i 1 1 Clear Hazelbrook Lawson m 151 4 2 C!ear Granville Parramatta 16^ 1^ i 1 Wentworth Falls 15^ ... 3 ... 14^ 161 15f 1 1 3i 2i 1 Clear ... m 161 ... 4 3J Clear "Westmead Medlow "Went worth ville ... )1 Blaokheath •. m ... 4 J) Toongabbio m ii » Mount Victoria 141 i li i ii ... Seven Hills 15J 161 16J 16J 2 Hartley Vale Sg. Bell I8i 5 ... 3 3 )) ... 14t lot i H 2i f )) Clarence Siding .. Zigzag B. Points Rooty Hill 3 »> 151 2i it ... Mount Druitt 161 3i ,» Eskbank Coal Sg. Clear Clear »» ... St. Mary's 16i 3 Eskbank 16i 3 141 14f 16i 1 1 1 16f 3i i li 4 161 3i Penrith, 3 3 Marrangaroo Wallerawang . . . 18| 5 Emu Plains 16i ... 3 Clear • •• 16J 3 )> u 191 6 Eydal 16i 3 GHenbrook 151 16i 16| ... 2i 3 3 » ... Sodwalls m 17t ... 2 4 4 i} Plaxland Tarana .... Xarabar IjocksleT ... . Valley Heights ... 16f 3i it Brewongle Ifif ... 31 )t ... Springwood Faulconbridge ... 19J 6 Baglau 151 16f 16i 2i 18i 5} Kelso 3i 16J 3 3 Woodford 16J ... 3 it Sir, When testing the clearance at the Bathurst coal-stage, I find the bottom of the woodwork fouls the gauges over the top of the cab llj inches at west end, and lOf inches there is quite sufiScient clearance at the side of cab and cylinders. Bathurst platform on the down line is only 21 inches ; Mullion Creek platform is only 1 j from outer edge of gauge to top of platform ; all the other platforms between Bathurst and Dubbo are all over 3 inches clear. All the verandahs are well clear except Orange, and the cab-gauge touches the facing-boards at. the ends of the verandah. This station I will measure again on the return journey at every point. The measurement from rail to top of gauge on cab is 12 feet inches — that shown on sketch 12 feet 3 inches. J. G-EEGORT, Mr. Stanger. 29/7/91. Sir, I have tested the clearance of all platforms and verandahs west of Bathurst, both on up and down journey. The platforms that were a little too close on the down journey have been altered ; not any of them are now under IGf inches from centre of cylinder to top of platform. All the verandahs are well clear except Orange, and 'when approaching the verandah the gauge caught the facing-boards at each end, owing to them projecting out ; the one at the west pnd knocked the top corner of the gauge down about 1| inches. The water-pipes are only 1 inch from the outer edge of the gauge. J. GEEGORY, Mr. Stanger. 31/7/91. Eveleigh, APPENDIX. 351 Ereleigh, 9 September, 1891. No. 455 American engine working special between Emu Plains and Dubbo, to ascertain the clearance for cylinders and cab of engine between all platforms, verandahs, bridges and tunnels, &c'. «on ^° Saturday, September'Sth, this engine left Eedfern at 8-33 a.m. and arrired at Wallerawang 6-20 p.m. There IS ample clearance for the cylinders and cab of engine between these two stations on platforms, &c., except Blaxland, Woodford, Lawson, Eskbank, Bowenfels, and the goods platform, Wallerawang. The following stations' verandahs only allow clearance thus :— e, if , WENTW.ORTH BALLS CLEAR OE GUTTER LITHGOW CAB ofJengine CLEAR OF FASCIA CAB OF ENGINE CLEAR BOTTOM OF FASCIA CAB OF ENGINE 3' CLEAR OF BARGE BOARD CAB OF. ENGINE VERANDAI-n GOODS SHED <- WALLERAWANG -> ROOF OF CAB FOULS BARGE BOARDAT WEST END CAB OF ENGINE A spring which is attached to the water-column;- west end of Lawson, to prevent the jib from swinging, clears the side of engine cab by 3| inches only. The pilot will foul the coal-stage (made of old sleepers) when the^e engines are being turned on th9 fable at Kaloomba. The roads leading into the Eskbank running-shed are not in the centre of the doorways, as the opening between doorposts is 9 feet 10 inches, very little clearance thus being allowed for side of cabs when entering this shed. Sunday, 6th. — Rydal to Orange. There is ample clearance between cylinders and cab of engine between these two stations on platforms, &c., except llydal, (up side) Bathurst, Wimbledon, Newbridge, Blayney (Cowra side), Spring Hill, and Bloomfield platforms. Cab of engine clears down-tiipcs from guttering on Orange verandah 3i inches only. CAB OF ENGINE J of same Guttering on Kelso verandah clears cab of engine 1 inch to 2 inches only. A water-pipe projecting from the face of Tarana platform will require to be let in flush with face The 352 APPENDIX, The coal-stage at Bathurst fouls cab of engine, thus : — RAIL LEVEL The feliding-doors on the sand-house, Orange, clear the handle on tide of cab by 3 inches. The stop-block at the end of road on the Orange turn-table will foul the pilot when turning these American engines. The batter will also require to be cut away to allow ihe pilot to pass. Thus : — TURNTABLE Monday,- 7th. — Orange to Dubbo. — There is ample clearance for the cylinders and cab of engine between these two stations on platforms, &c., except Keer's Greek platform. On the face of the Wellington platform five water-pipes project. Also at Dubbo they will require to be let in flush with the face of platform. Most of the end posts on the "Wellington coal-stage (near running-shed) have been forced out at the top, caused by the stacking of coal, and foul the handle on the side of cab. These posts are not required, and could be cut off level with the floor of coal-stage. The ends of bolts will require to be cut ofE on posts at the sand-house coal-stage to give more clearance for cylinders. The coal-stages at Mount Victoria, Wallerawang, Orange, and Dubbo are of similar construction to the Wellington one, and clear the cab from 2 inches to 5-|- inches ; cylinders, 3 inches to G inches. Thus :— 2" TO 5r-- ^ l^ CAB OF ENGINE - HANDLE 3" TO 6"^ ade and fixed in the lids of each journey. It will not be Sable toTunne fh.tf^r' ^n'"" "° t^°"We for the remainder of the ihey yLt, .'if the boxes ^^'^S^^^^^^^^^^^^t^;- — ' °' *^« ^-'^^7 of oil from M^rrut^^difotetlo v'37"'^^ 1° ^r^^l.^^^^ '='^'^™^'=^ •^'^^--" ^-^'^''^^er and platforms platfo™, Xchtriefi^ltirhes "3 inchfs" Sh sThtf' "'' ?°, '^^^'f^^V.' ^""P^"^"' ^°'1°- platform at Willow Tmo Pln.,t4 f)^„ r V "l'^"^^' ^^^J^ platform is to be replaced by a new one). The 2" ONLY ON SOME OF THE PILES AT THIS POINT All the verandahs bridges, and tunnels, &c., allow ample clearance for the cab, with the excenti of Werns Creek verandah ; the mouldnig on the side of cab just touches the down-p res and orname covering same leading from the guttering. F li-a duu oiuamex DOWN PIPE^ CAB OF. .ENGINE The guttering on verandah at Wiilcha Eoad platform hardly allows sufficient clearance for tbe cab on the up end. "When approaching Armidale, the engine (448) ran through and smashed Peckes' gates. The driver did not give the gatekeeper sufficient warning, as no notice of this special was given, and the whistle was not blown until within 200 yards of the gates. The pilot (cow-catcher) lifted the gates off the rails, and threw pieces of the gates into the air to the left and right. No damage was done to the engine beyond breaking one head-lamp and a slight strain to the pilot. During the run to Armidale the boiler primed badly. The engine being stabled here for the night, the boiler was washed out and the water changed ; for the remaining portion of the journey the boiler steamed splendidly. Tuesday, 4th August. Armidale to Jennings and return. — The clearance between cylinder and platforms from Armidale to Jennings varied from 4 inches to 5 inches, with the exception of the new timber-faced platform at Glencoe, which varied from 3 inches to 4 inches. Glen Innes platform varied from 3| inches to 4 inches. All verandahs, bridges, Ac, allow ample clearance for the cab, with the exception of the verandah guttering at Dundee, which gives the cab 2| inches clearance. GUTTERING On S58 APPENDIX. On the return run from Jennings to Armi^ale the E.H. leading axle-box on engine bogie ran hot. The keep of same was taken down at Armidale, journal examined and found to be in good condition-. Keep repacked, this box ran fairly cool for the remainder of the journey. Wednesday, 5th August. Armidale to Newcastle. — After passing G-reta the L.H. pin in the quadrant link-bloek broke. On examination I found that this pin had previously seized in the block, and had been working so for five or six djiys ; this pin then worked loose in the rocking-shaft, and, for the want of lubrication, seized in same; the pin thus being held fast in the shaft and link-block was sheared and broken oiF. The broken pin was sent to you for inspection. Engine 426, working, 101, down, pushed the disabled engine to Greta, where she was picked up by engine 419 (which was wired for at Singleton) and towed into Newcastle. The pin was replaced at Newcastle, and the engine reached Eveleigh on Priday, 7th, at 1-30 p.m. H. E. EOBINSON. E. A. Laughry, Esq. Name of Platform. Clearance of Cylinder, Remarks. Strathfield Concord Rhodes Meadow Bank Ryde Eastwood Carlingf ord Beeeroft Pennant Hills Thornleigh Hdrnsby Colah Berowra Cowan Hawkesbury River Wondabyne Mullet Creek Woy Woy Point Clare tiosford Narara Ourimbah Tuggerah Wyong Wyee Morisset Dora Creek Awaba , Fassifern Teralba Cookie Creek..., Young Wallsend .... Cardiff Adamstown Broadmeadow Islington Hamilton Honeysuckle Newcastle .' Waratah Sandgate Hexham Tarro Thornton Victoria-street East Maitland High-street West Maitland, Farley Lochinvar AUandale Anvil Creek Greta Branxton , , . . . Belford Whittingham Singleton Rix's Creek Nundah Glennie's Creek Ravens worth Liddell Toowong Grass Tree Muswellbrook Aberdeen Scone Parkville Wingen Blandford Murrurundi Temple Court Doughboy Hollow .... Willow Tree Braefield in. to 5J in. in. in. to 64 in. in. to 4J in. in. to 6 in. in. to 5 in. 5J in. to 6 in. 3 in. to 3i in. ii in. 54 in. to 6J in. 5|in 44 in. to 5 in. 5J in. to 6 in. SJ- in. 3| in. to 5| in. Clears 4J in. to 8 in. 4| in. to 4J in. 3| in. to 4| in. 5 in. 4J in. to 5 in. .3| in. to 5 in. SJ in. to 5 in. 5 in. to 7 in. in. to 6 in. in. to 4J in. in. to 5 in. in. to 5 in. to 5 in. to 6 in. to 6 4iin. 4 in. to 5J in. in. to 5| in. in. to 5 in. in. to 5J in in. to 5 in. in. to 6 in. to 5 in. to 5 in. to 5 in. to 5 in. in. in. to 4 SJ in. to 5 3i in. to 5 3 in. to 4 4 in. to 5 3i in. to 5 3i in. to 4 m. m. in. in. in. in. in. in. m. in. in. in. iu. in, in. 4 in 34 in. 3Jin. 4 in. 4 in. 3iin. 34 in. 4 in. 4 in. 4 in. 3 in. 4 in. 4 in. 44 in. 4 in. 4 iu. 4 in. 5 in. 44 in. 4 in. 24 in. 4 in. 4 in. to 5 jn. to 4 in. to 4 in. to 44 in. to 4 in. to 44 in. to 5 in. to 5 iu. to 5 in. to 5 in. to 54 in. to 5 in. to 3 in. to S in. to 5 in. The following platforms, from Strathiield to Jennings, were measured as the engine passed slowly by each one. Did not go over North Shore line. jDid not take engine into siding. Cab almost touches verandah. To Newcastle. Verandah not complete. Fouls verandah. Verandah too close up platform. New verandah clears cab 84 in. No record taken. Verandah too close. Verandah not complete. Platform to be rebuilt. Timber piles to be cut down. API ESDIX. 359 Name of Platform. Cloaranoc of Cylinder. Remarks Qnirindi Quipolly Werria Creek Terrible Vale Currabubula Duri West Tamworth . Tamwortli TintinhuU Moonbi Farquharson Macdonald River , Waloha Road ,.., WoUun Kentucky TTralla Kelly's Plains . . . , Armidale Dumaresq Duval Black Mountain . Guyra Llangothlin Ben Lomond Glencoe Stonehenge Glen Innes Yarraf ord Dundee Deepwater Bolivia Sandy Flat Bluff Rock Tenterfield Sunnyside Jennings 4 5 5 4 4 4 5 5 44 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 4 4 34 4 5 5 4 5 G 4 5 4 to 5 in. to 54 in. to 6 in. to 5 to 5 to 5 to 6 m. in. in. m. to e in. in. to 5i in. in. in. to 5 in. in. in. in. to 5 in. in. Fouls verandah, &c. Did not go over the N.^Y. line. Guttering projects. to 5 in. ! to 5 in. to 5 in. to 5 in. to 5 in. , to 5 in. to 6 in. to 6 in. to 5 in. to ,5 Ill to 5 in. to 4 in. to 5 m. to 6 in to 6 m. to 5 in. to 6 m. to 7 in. to 5 m. to 54 in. 1 to 5 in. New platform 3 in. to in. Guttering on verandah too close. There is ample clearance for the cab of these new American engines going through and under all "the tunnels and bridges on the Northern line. The tumiels varied in clearaiice from 7i in. to 16 in. All doors of running sheds on the Korthern line will allow cabs of new American express engines to enter the sheds. At mileage 364'10 the engine struck something on the line and threw ballast about. Being on a ticket we did not go back to see what it was. The train was pulled up. On examining the engine and car no marks could be found. The District Engineer sent a ganger back from the nest station to inspect about mileage 364'10. I have not been informed of the result. Standard Profile Measurements to Existing Structures— Passenger Platforms. P.S.— All measurements from inside of rail, except books 6, 7, and 8, which are from centre of rail. Name of Station. Description of Platform. Measurements. Cant. No. and in^'lfeld Book. Top. Bottom. Height from rail. In. Out. Granville (up line) .. „ (down line) Merry lands Guildford Fairfield Canley Vale Cabramatta Warwick Park ... Liverpool Glenfield..... Maequarie Fields Ingleburn Minto Leameah Campbelltown Gbeat Southern Railway— Geanville to Aibubt. Brick (stone cap.) jj » Timber »> '■ Brick (stone cap.) Timber 31 •• Brick Brick (stone cap.) Brick )i J) )) Timber Brick Brick (stone cap.) Brick ft. in. 2 61 a 6 2 5J 2 Si 2 9* 2 fif a 5t 2 6i 2 5 2 8S 2 6!t 2 8i 2 7 a n 2 7* 2 6* 2 n 2 5 2 71 ft. in. ft. in. in. in . Page. No. 2 11 3 n ... 71 2 Dished IJ in. 2 2f 3 71 2 Dished li in. a 2i 2 lOf 70 2 Dished If in. a 3i a 10* 70 a Dished li in. 2 5| 2 10 65 2 2 11 2 lit 65 a 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 2 ai 2 71 1« 63 a 3 2 8i 62 2 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 2 9i 2 lOi 60 2 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 2 5i 2 91 59 2 a 3 a 9f 58 2 Dished 1^- in. 2- 51 a 8| 51 2 a 3 a loi 50 2 2 3| 2 lOi ■ 49 2 Dished If in. a 3 2 lOi 49 2 2 Hi a lOi .•> 49 2 6 in. X 6 in. piles 2 44 a 8i • <• 47 2 2 2 2 .91 • >• 43 2 Dished It in. 2 4 2 9i 43 2 360 APPENDIX, Name ol Station. Description of Platform. Measurements. Cant. No. and in Field Book. Top. Bottom. Height from rail. In. Out Remarks. Between North Menangle and Campbelltown. North Menangle Menangle -.. .. J) Douglas Park Maldon P.cton Uhirlmere P.cton Lakes Bam oral Hill Top Colo Vale Bush's Mittagong Bowrjl Burradoo Bong Bong Moss Vale Meryla Exeter Bundanoon WoUondilly Wingello Barber's Creek Marulan Carriok Towrang Murray's Flats North Goulbiirn Qoulburn )j Yarra Breadalbane Bazorbaek Fish River Gunning Gunning, Jerrawa Jerrawa Jerrawa, Yass Yass Bowning Binalong Galong Eocky Ponds Cunningar Harden Murrumburrah Demondrille Nubba Wallendbeen Oootamundra frampton ' ,,i Bethungra Ulabo Junee Junction I) ji 3) )* >' Harefleld. Bomen.: Wagga Wagga Sandy Creek TheEock , Yerong Creek Doodle, Cooma Culcairn )! • Gerogery Yambla Ettamogah Albury Ettoecouree Albury Gkeat Southern Eaiiway— Qeanvilie to Aibuey — continued. Timber It Brick (ftone cap.) ., Timber J) Brick (stone cap.) .. Masonry Old f leepers Timber Masonry )> Timber Brick (stone cap.) .. Timber )» Brick (stone cap.) .. Masonry Brick (stone cap.) .. Timber Old sleepers Masonry Timber Brick (stone cap.) . . Timber j> Masonry (brick cap.) Brickwork Britk (stone cap.) .. _j> » •• Brick j» • Old sleepers Brick Old sleepers Brick.... Old sleepers Masonry (brick cap.) Brick Masonry Brick )> ' •• Masonry (brick cap.) Timber Masonry (brick cap.) Brick j» Masonry (wood cap.) Masonry (brick cap.) Brick (stone cap.) .. Masonry (brick cap.) Brick (stone cap.) .. Masonry (brick cap.) Brick (stone cap.) .. Masonry (brick cap.) Masonry (brick cap.) Brick Timber )) )i _ Masonry Brick (stone cap.) .. Timber Brick...!!!...!!!!!!...!! Timber' ! Brick (stone cap.) .. ft. in. ft. in. ft. in. in. in. Page. No. 2 8 2 lOf 2 7J u 38 2 3 Oi 3 2 2 191 ... ... 38 2 2 fi 2 2i 2 lOi 2 35 2 2 61 2 llf 2 lU U 85 2 2 61 2 lit 3 01 li 32 2 2 P| 2 7J 2 9 3f 31 2 2 5i 2 U 2 lOJ • •■ f 28 2 2 8f 2 5i 2 74 1 25 a 2 Hk 2 10 2 91 3 25 2 2 7i 3 Oi 2 9^ 24 a 2 8i a 5i 2 9* 24 2 2 8J 2 4i 2 91 2 ... 23 2 2 6i 2 8f 2 9J 23 2 2 7 2 4J 2 lOJ li ... 21 2 2 4J 2 li a 11 13 2 2 5i 2 lOi 2 9 • •> ■ .. 13 2 2 6 a Hi 2 lOJ ,,, 10 2 2 3f 2 Oi 2 71 ... 6 2 2 H 2 5S 2 71 5 2 2 11 2 5i 2 n . .• n 4 2 2 6i 2 13 2 8i 2 2 2 8 2 8 a 71 2i .4. 2 2 2 6i a 4 a 9j 1 a 2 9f 3 2i a 91 , ... 165 1 2 6 a 3i 2 9s u 161 1 2 5 2 101 2 8 157 1 a 5^ 2 13i 2 7t , , 157 1 a 6f 2 5i 2 8f ... 153 1 2 n 2 2i 2 9f <•> 153 1 a 7^ 2 2i 2 lU . .. 141 1 2 9 2 21 2 lOi ... 14t 1 2 5i 2 3t 2 ^t ... 93 1 2 4t 2 2i 2 at , , li 89 1 2 8 2 7i a loi 4^ 89 1 2 il a 2 2 6i n 87 1 2 4\ 2 U a 11 i<1 1 2 5i 2 6 2 8i *.. 83 1 2 5i 2 3i 3 Oi 82 1 2 6i 2 8 2 7i • •• . >• 83 1 2 6i a 4i 2 7 • > . 79 1 2 6i 2 3i 3 OJ 74 1 2 5i 2 H 2 81 1* 67 1 a 5i 2 ai 2 9i ... 65 1 a 6i 2 3| a 41 3i 64 1 2 4J 2 11 2 8f ... 62 1 2 n 2 If 2 lOf , 57 1 2 Z\ a 9 2 71 2* , 4 1 2 11 2 5 2 lOi 2i 1 1 2 61 2 0£- 2 9t 45 1 2 51 2 3t 2 Si tV 49 1 2 41 2 2i 2 8t IB 10 2 4f 2 U 2 8i • •• 22 10 2 7i 2 2f 3 4f 23 10 2 5i 2 2 2 9t ... 24 10 a 8 2 3J 2 8 9 8 2 3J a 1 2 lOi ... 9 8 2 7i 2 21 2 74 9 8 2 4i a ri a loi ... >•■ 9 8 2 9 a 3 2 8i • ■* 9 8 2 4f 2 2t 2 9i 9 8 2 5 2 2i 2 9i i . .. 32 8 2 4i 2 U 2 8f 32 8 2 5i a n 2 9f 34 8 2 6 a 3i a 94 35 8 2 5J. 2 4 2 91 ... ... 36 8 2 61 2 5t a lOi 38 8 2 6i 2 8^ 2 81 • •• 38 8 2 7S a at 3 S| . ,, 39 8 2 2t 2 Oi a 'fit ... 39 8 2 3J 2 2f a 6i • •• 40 8 a 5 2 3i a 8| • •• k 9 10 2 8 2 3i 2 71 ... 11 10 2 5| 2 lit 2 lOi . . . ... 12 10 2 7i 2 7i 2 9i 1 10 8 in. diameter piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 7 in. X 9 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. Dished It in. Ashlar cap set off li ip. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. Asblor cap set off 14 in. Ash] or cap set off 14 in. 9 in. X 5 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. Set ofE 14 in. Set off 14 in. Setoff li in. 6 in; X 6 in. piles. Set off 14 in. 6 in. X 6 iii, piles. 6 in. X 6 m. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. Set off li in. Dished 1 in. Dished li in. Dished li in. 6 in. X 6 in. Set off li in. Set off 4 in. Dished Ij in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, Set off '2| in. Brawlin . Muttama . Coolac Gundagai GbBAT SoriHEEN EaILWAY — ^^COOTAMUHDEA TO GUNIJAGAI, Timber 2 7 2 54 2 71 ... ... 30 10 a 94 2 5f 2' -St ■ . •• ... ; ^9 10 2 8i 2 5 2 8 29 10 2 tl 2 4J 2 5J .— 25 10 APPENDIX. 3G1 Name of Station. Description of Platform. Measurements. Cant. No. and in^Field Book. Top. Bottom. Height from rail. In. Out. Remarks. Gillenbah Ciiddell Colombo Creek Widgiewa Coonong ... Bundure Yathong Jerilderie O-EEAT SoUTHEBJr EaIIWAX — NaEEAKDEEA TO JeEILBEEIB. Old sleepers Masonry (briek cap.) .. Timber 'j' -" J) )i )» ■•■• Brick ft. in. ft. in. ft. in. in. in. Page. No. 2 6i 2 6^ 3 61 15 8 2 71 2 4i 2 81 15 8 2 5 2 3i 2 8^ 16 8 2 6k 2 lOf 2 8f 17 8 2 2i 1 111 2 lOi • •• 17 8 2 2| 2 0^ 2 7i 20 8 2 4 2 21 2 It 19 1 2 5f 2 21 2 8i "18 1 6 in. xi) in. piles. Gbbat Soutiieen Railway — Cooma Branch. Bangalore lake Bathurst Tarago Lake Bathurst (on Lake) Fairy Meadow Bungendore Bvirbong Queanbeyan I'uggeranong Rob Roy ._. Michelago Colrnton Bredbo TJmeralla Buuyan Cooma Brick Concrete (brick cap.) Brick Timber Brick 7 2 2* 2 91 , , 95 1 7 2 41 2 5 n 96 1 6i 2 4^ 2 81 98 1 8 2 5i 2 91 ... 2S 100 1 7* 2 U 2 9J 101 1 64 2 Si 2 9i 103 1 4* 2 n 2 10 i 107 1 7i 2 4 2 91 136 1 ■6i 2 3i 2 lOi ... 31 133 1 5f 2 4 2 lOf ... 132 1 7i 2 4i 2 91 129 1 7 2 3J 2 9f 125 1 7i 2 4S 2 9f Ir 121 1 7t 2 4» 2 9i is 117 1 6t 2 4 2 10^ i 116 1 7i 2 41 2 91 110 1 Dished If in. Set offi U in. Set off i in. GrEEiT SotTTHEEN RAILWAY — PEMOIfDEILLE TO BlATNEY. Kingsvale jj Toung Burrangong Burrangong, Monteagle Monteagle Bendick Morrell Crowther Koorawatha Cowra Holmwood Holmwood, Woodstock , Woodstock WyaUa Garland Lyndhurst Mandurama Careoar Blayney Brick. Brick (stone cap.) Old sleepers Timber Brick Old sleepers . Timber Brick Tiinber Brick Timber Brick ... 73 2 a 2 9i 6 1 6* 2 5 2 9J ... 6 1 6* 2 6k 2 lOi •■* 12 1 ei 2 8i 2 10| 1 16 1 8t 2 9^ 3 2i ... 16 1 7 2 31 2 IH ..• 17 1 1i 2 5f 2 9f i 18 1 6 2 71 7 71 19 1 6 2 3 3 OJ ... 20 1 n 2 5i 2 91 ... 25 1 6i 2 3i 2 lOi r ... 41 1 H 2 2J 2 lOf 1* ... 43 1 8^ 2 4 2 11 1* 42 1 fi^ 2 31- 2 7i •ii 40 1 SiS- 2 5i 3 Ot ... 39 1 8i- 2 5J 2 Hi ... 57 1 «T 2 91 3 44 i 36 1 1h 2 41 2 9i 33 1 7i 2 51 2 10} 30 1 Set off li in. Set off 1 in. Old Junee Marrar Coolaman Boggy Creek .. Devlin's Siding Grong Grong . Narrandera Yanko Siding.. Whitton Darlington Benerembah ... Bringagee Oroongal Carrathool South-Westeen Line— Junee Junction to Hay. Masonry (brick cap.) - Timber Masonry (brick cap.) , Old sleepers Timber Masonry (brick cap.) < Masonry Old sleepers Timber Old sleepers . Timber 2 5| 2 3k 2 9J ... 10 8 2 4f 2 lOi a 81 11 8 2 7i 2 6k 2 81 ..* 11 8 2 8i 2 9i 2 71 12 8 2 5k 2 91 3 12 8 2 6i 2 21 2 91 12 8 2 6i 2 2i 2 lOf 1* 13 8 2 5f 2 11 2 6i • •• 4 29 8 2 3 2 2f • 2 81 ... 29 8 2 6 2 3| 2 5 ... 28 8 2 41 2 7 2 5 26 8 2 5i 2 6i 2 lOi ii 26 8 2 6i 2 4J 2 5i 25 8 2 3f 2 3} 2 5J 21 8 6 in. X 6 in. piles. South-Western Line-Junbe Junction to UAY-contimed. TJardry .. Tnononga Beabula . Hay Old sleepers . Briek . 2 Hi 3 3i 2 lOi ... 24 8 2 di 3 li 2 10 ... k 23 8 2 6k 3 Ok 2 9 i 23 8 2 5f 2 41 2 5i ... 20 8 nG-2 APPENDIX, Name of Station. Description of Platform. Measurements. Top. Bottom. Heiglit from rail. Cant. In Out. No. and in Field Book. Remarks. Geeat Noetheen Railway. Wallangarra , Sunnyside Tenterfield Bluff Keck Sandy Flat... BoliTia Deepwater Dundee Yarrowford Glen Innes Stonehenge Gleneoe Ben Lomond Llangothlin Guyra Black Mountain DuTal Diunaresq Armidale , Kelly's Plains TJralla Kentucky WoUar Walcha Koad M'Donald Eiver TTarquharson Siding Moonbi Tintinhull Tamworth West Tamwortli Duri Cnrrabubula Werris Creek »» • Quipolly Quirindi Braefield , Willow Tree Doughboy Hojlow Teniple Court Murrurundi Blandford Wingen Parkville Scone Aberdeen Muswellbrook Grass Tree Liddell Kavensworth Glennie's Creek Eix's Creek Singleton Whittingham Belford Branxton Greta Allandale )i Locliinvar Lochiuvar- Farley Farley West Maitland High-street (up line) „ (downline) ... East Maitland (up line) ... ,, (down line) „ (up line) ... „ (Morpeth branch) Victoria-street (up line) ... „ (down line) Victoria- street-Thornton ... Thornton (up line) „ (downline) Tarro (down line) „ (upline) Hexham (down line) „ (upline) Sandgate (up line) „ (downline) Waratah (up line) „ (downline) „ (upline) „ (downline) Concrete (wood cap.) Brick »j Timber Brick »i • >j » )» Brick (stone cap.) . . Timber Brick )» •■• Timber Brick Timber )i Brick Brick (stone cap.) . . Timber Brick )j Timber Brick Timber >i n '•• •• ») Brick )t Masonry (brick cap.) Brick i> Masonry (brick cap.) Timber )> • » Brick '3 '• Brick (stone cap.) )j * J) Brick >» Brick (stone cap.) .. Brick Brick (stone cap.) .. Brick ») Brick (stone cap.) .. Brick ..-. )t Timber Brick _j' ' Timber Brick J) » »> Timber Brick Brick (atone cap.) .. Timber »» Brick Timber *i )> Brick j> Timber Brick » ■ )) Timber Brick Brick Tirnber Briti '.'.'. ft. in. ft. in. ft. in. in. 2 6 2 3J 2 94 2 61 2 34 2 114 2 8 2 54 2 104 2 lOi 2 9t 2 84 2 7i 2 44 2 8| 2 6i 2 4 3 4t 2 6i 2 51 2 104 2 61 2 4t 2 10 ... 2 ^i 2 4* 2 104 2 n 2 44 3 04 2 54 2 64 2 54 2 6 2 3 2 Hi 2 61 2 4 2 94 2 a 2 54 2 9 2 6i 2 64 2 9f • •• 2 6i 2 2f 2 9f ... 2 8 3 2« 2 54 .•* 2 7i 2 54 2 94 2 6f 2 54 2 lit 2 44 2 64 2 71 2 5i 2 34 2 84 2 6 2 Si 2 8S 2 5i 2 ei 2 114 2 8i 2 n 2 84 2 4 2 4i 2 lOf 2 4i 2 5 2 9i 2 3 2 14 2 Hi ... 2 2f 2 44 2 104 2 4i 2 0* 2 6| ■■• 2 44 2 2 2 8|- 2 3J 2 2 2 14 2 6i 2 2 2 94 ... 2 3f 1 H 2 94 ... 2 5 1 lit 2 94 2 5 2 24 2 6f ... 2 41 2 2 2 10 2 4 2 34 2 24 2 34 2 24 2 84 2 54 2 44 2 2f 2 54 2 24 2 54 ... 2 If 2 2 4 2 54 2 34 2 8 ... 2 41 2 34 2 94 ... 2 61 2 44 2 104 2 H 2 21 2 7f ... 2 44 2 24 2 lOJ 2 31 2 14 .2 71 ... 2 4J 2 54 2 41 ... 2 6i 2 44 2 51 * 2 51 2 Si 2 8 2 4J 2 54 2 8i 2 54 2 2f 3 • •■ 2 74 2 94 2 104 2 4 2 4* 2 84 2 3t 2 34 2 94 • •• 2 54 2 64 2 lOJ 2 54 2 5S 2 94 li 2 4. 2 34 2 104 2 64 2 44 2 104 2 4 2 54 2 84 2 6| 2 6* 2 gf 14 2 44 2 44 2 74 2 51 2 1* 2 94 2 44 2 9 •2 lOf 2 5 2 Of 2 7f 1 2 n 2 2f 2 74 2 3i 2 9f 2 101 1* 2 6 2 in 2 84 ... 2 4| 3 3 44 2 7S 2 48 3 04 * 2 34 2 2 2 7f 2 8 2 54 2 94 ... 2 41 2 24 3 14 2 24 2 2» 2 54 ..• 2 74 2 4f 2 lOf 2 54 2 1* 2 111 .t> 2 34 2 54 2 114 ,,. 2 5 2 34 2 11 2 54 2 It 2 84 2 64 2 3 2 64 2 4J 2 7 2 7i 2 81 2 94 2 64 2 4i 2 24 2 8| 2 54 2 14 2 8J 14 age. 138 2 133 2 126 2 125 2 124 2 123 2 122 2 118 2 116 2 113 2 110 2 107 2 lOG 2 140 2 141 2 145 2 146 2 147 2 150 2 1 3 5 3 7 3 8 3 9 3 13 3 16 3 17 3 18 3 21 3 29 3 31 3 32 3 35 3 34 3 .37 3 38 3 43 3 44 3 47 3 51 3 56 3 57 3 60 3 61 3 61 3 66 3 6& 3 74 3 74 3 75 3 78 3 79 3 80 3 87 3 89 3 94 3 97 3 99 3 99 3 101 3 104 3 106 3 108 3 112 3 112 3 113 3 ]13 3 113 3 114 3 129 3 129 3 130 3 131 3 131 3 133 3 133 3 136 3 137 3 138 3 138 3 139 3 139 3 140 3 140 3 Set off 4 in. Set off 4 in. Set ofE 4 in. Double set off 14 in., 14 in. Dished 2 in. Dished 24 in. 9-in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in, piles. Set ofE 4 in. Dished 2 in. 8 in. X 8 in. piles 20 ft. 9 in. 8 in. X S in. piles 20 ft. 9 in Dished 14 in. 7 in. X 7 in. piles 21 ft. in 6 in. X 6 in. piles 21 ft. in. 6 in. X 6. in. piles. Dished If in. 20 ft. 6 in. 20 ft. 4 in. Dished 2 in. ") Dishedlf in. j 20 ft. 8 in. 20 ft. 81 in. } APPENDIX. 363 Name of Station. Description of Platform. Measurements. Top. Bottom. Heiglit. from rail. In. Out. No. and page in Field. Book. Ecmarkg. Gbeat Noetheeh Eailwat — continued. Hamilton (up line) ... „ (down line) Newcastle Mortuary Honeysuckle Point Junction . (up line) Adamatown (up line) „ (down line) .. Broadmeadow (down line) „ (up line) . . Cardiff. Cockle Creek Teralba Fassifern Awaba Dora Creek Morrisset Wyee "Wyong Xuggerah Lakes. Ourimbah Narrara Grosford Point Clare.... Woy Woy .... Mullet Creek . Long Island . Hawkesbury River (up line) „ (down line) Berowra Colali Hornsby Thomleigh Pennant Hills Beecroft Carlingford ;. Eastwood Eyde Meadowbank Khodes Concord Brick (stone cap.) n )j Timber Brick (stone cap.) Brick Timber , Brick..., Timber . Concrete (wood cap.) Timber Concrete (wood cap.) Timber Brick (stone cap.) Brick Timber Old sleepers., Brick Timber Brick ... Timber Brick ... m. n 3i 3* 7f 4 5i 8J V 61 5f 61 64 5i 1 8 5i n 8^ 6i 7i 8 Ik Timber Brick ... ft. in. 2 a 2 4f 2 5 2 4 2 3i 3 Oi 2 2 2 2i 2 6 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 11 61 6i 7i 8i 8 7* 7i 10 7i 5i 9 7 7 7i 6i 7i 4f 4i 4J 4 4i 4i 5i 6| 6 4i 2 5^ 2 lOi 2 5i 2 51 2 3i 2 3i 2 5i 2 5i 2 4f ft. in.. 2 7i 2 10 2 101 2 44 2 4i 2 9J 2 10 2 5 2 4t 2 2 2 2 7i 4i 4 2 5i 3 4 n n 2 2 2 2 9f 3 If 2 71 2 7i 3 li 2 94 2 9* 2 7i 2 10 2 lOi 2 7J 2 91 2 8i 2 61 2 n 2 Hi 2 9 2 lOi 2 104 2 9 2 91 2 84 2 9i 3 Oi 3 Oi 2 lOi 2 114 2 Hi 3 31 2 94 3 04 3 54 2 114 2 94 2 8 2 9i 2 94 2 9f 2 HI 3 5i 2 91 2 Hi 2 lOi 2 114 24 14 14 14 2i If Page. No. 145 3 145 3 18 4 19 4 19 4 1 4 148 3 148 3 21 4 20 4 21 4 21 4 17 4 17 4 23 4 24 4 24 4 26 4 27 4 28 4 30 4 32 4 83 4 36 4 38 4 40 4 40 4 44 4 44 4 46 4 47 4 49 4 52 4 52 4 53 4 53 61 61 63 4 87 4 91 4 93 4 91 4 96 4 99 4 100 4 101 4 102 4 I 20 ft. 6i in. Set ofe 2 in. Setofe2in.| jf 4JJ Set off 2 in. ) 7 in. X 7 in. piles. 5 20 ft. lOi in. 21 ft. Oi in. 7 in. X 7 in. piles. I 62 ft. Oi in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. I 21 ft. 04 in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. Si in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. 3^ in 5 iu. X 5 in. piles. Wahroonga Turramurra Pymble O^ordon Lindfield Eossville Chats wood ... St. Leonards Gkeat Nobtheen Railway— St. Leonards Branch. Concrete (wood cap.) Brick Concrete (wood cap.) Brick 2 84 2 5i 2 9i 4 6t 4 2 7f 2 5 2 91 ... 64 4 2 74 2 4f 2 lOi ... 65 4 2 7i 2 4 2 104 70 4 2 74 2 44 2 104 14 75 4 2 8f 2 54 2 114 i 77 4 2 7 2 4i 2 104 80 4 2 7i 2 4i 2 104 83 4 NOBTH-WESTESy Railwat. Narrabri Brick... Tibberena Timber Turrawan Eaan Baa Boggabri Emerald Hill . Q-unnedah .... Curlewis Breeza Gap Wallsend .... Brick.... Timber . Brick.... Timber . Brick . . . , Timber , Brick..., 2 7f a 4i 2 10 ..• 85 2 2 7i ■2 104 3 4f 88 2 2 4 2 74 2 7f 89 2 2 54 2 8i 2 114 ... 90 2 2 5S 2 3i 2 94 • •• 92 2 2 54 2 74 3 2i ... 94 2 2 21 2 1 2 74 ... 97 2 2 34 2 24 2 5J .•■ 101 2 .2 24 2 li 2 61 102 2 2 3f 2 2t 2 41 105 2 2 4 2 44 3 5i 143 3 5 in. X 9. in. piles (old sleepers). 5 in. X 9 in. piles (old sleepers). 5 in. X 9 in. piles (old sleepers). 5 in. X 9 in. piles (old sleepers). Eaworth . Morpeth . Brick Brick (stone cap.) Brick Brick (stone cap.) MOEPBTH BBANCH. 2 64 2 44 2 lOi 14 118 3 2 54 2 24 2 9 119 3 2 7 2 44 3 1 ... 120 3 2 If 1 74 2 10 ... ... 124 3 6— 3D 36'! APPENDIX. Name ot Station Description of Platform. Measurements. Cant. No. and in field Boole. "Top. Bottom. HeiRht from rail. In. Out. Bemarks, South Coast Eailway. Kiama Shellharbour Albion Park Yallah Dapto Kembla Orange Unanderra WoUongong Para Meadow Corrimal Bellambi BuUi Eobinsville Austinmer Clifton South Clifton StamVell Park Otford Lily^ale Helensburgh Waterfall Heathcote (upline) „ (down line) Loftua Junction (up line) „ (down line) Loftua t) I • ■••■ »' Sutherland (up line) ,, (downline) ... Como (up line) ,-, (down line) Oatley (up line) ,, (down line) Penahurst (up line) „ (downline) Huratyille (up line) ......... „ (down line) Carlton (up line) „ (down line) Kogarah (upline) „ (down line) Rockdale (up line) „ (down line) Ar^cliffe (upline) „ (down line) Tempe (up line) „ (downline) Marrickville (up line) „ (down line) . . . St. Peters (up line) „ (downline) ErstincTille (up line) „ (down line) ... Timber Brick M )» Timber Brick Brick (stone cap.) .. Brick )j • ■ )> Timber J) Brick Timber )» )> u ) Brick J) u it • Timber I) • Brick Masonry Timber (top on rock) )» Brick J) Timber >» • ••' Brick )> J) )» )) ' ) Brick (atone cap.) .. Brick in. n ei 8f 8i n 8i 8i 9i 5i 7 n i\ ii 7 8i 5i 8 ■5i 5 6f 6i 6i n 74 7i 81 74 2 7 2 9 2 9i 8 7i 8 71 64 Ik 81 8i 7i 7i 7i 71 6J 6f 7 6 7i 7i 5t 74 hi 74 ft. in. 2 54 2 81 2 2 2 54 5 5 2 llf 2 44 64 5 2 2 2 6f 2 5S 2 2S 2 3f 2 44 2 3S 2 54 2 Hi 2 74 2 104 2 5J 2 24 2 24 2 3i 2 lOj 2 114 2 4J 2 44 2 14 2 6 2 3f 2 34 3 04 3 04 2 44 2 44 2 44 2 54 2 44 2 3| 2 44 04 8S 104 94 2 lit 2 lOf 2 lOf 2 8t 2 11 2 11 2 H 74 9i 11 94 04 94 lOJ 9 91 9i 9 2 3 2 2 2 2- 91 2 114 2 OJ a 94 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 9| 2 104 2 114 2 81 2 114 2 11 2 11 2 7i 2 8| 2 lOJ 2 114 2 10 2 84 2 104 2 94 2 94 2 91 2 2 2 2 2 2 84 84- 94 84 8i 101 If 14 21 Page. 152 147 145 142 140 138 137 13i 131 129 128 126 123 122 119 118 116 113 111 107 25 27 27 32 32 33 33 33 33 35 35 37 37 39 33 40 40 1 2 5 5 6 6 10 10 13 13 16 16 17 17 20 20 24 21 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 1 in. set off. 6 in. X 6 in. pilea. I 20 ft. 104 in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 20 ft. llj in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 20 ft. ISJ in, \ 20 ft. 11 in. 6 in. X 6 in. timber, 21 it. 4^ in. 6 in. X 6 in. timber, 21 ft. 4^ in. I 21 ft. 04 in. |.21ft. 04 in. I 21 ft. If in. I 20 ft. 11^ in. I 20 ft. Xl'i in. I 20 ft. 114 in. ] 20 ft. 11 in. 20 ft. Hi in. 20 ft. lOf in. I 20 ft. lOf in. Geeat Westeen' Railway. Bourke Mooculta Byrock QlenarifP Coolabah Wilga Q-irilambone .... Nyngan Mullen gudgery . Nevertire Trangie Narromine Minore Dubbo Murrumbidgerie Q-eurie Maryyale Wellington Apsley Springs Mumbil Ironbarks Store Creek .... Warne Kerr's Creek .... MuUion Creek ., Timber Old aleepera Bricks , » s> Timber ^)» ■■«... Bricks Timber Masonry . . . Bricks )» jj >i Timber Bricks » Timber Brick Timber Brick 74 2 5 "l 2'"5 "84 2'"74 10 •2 10 64 2 34 7 2 5 4 2 3 54 2 54 8 2 11 6 2 3 7 2 10 7 2 54 7 2 5 54 2 34 6 2 34 64 2 44 5 3 5 7 2 54 5f 2 34 8 2 5 8 2 104 64 2 44 7* 3 1 6J 2 34 2 9f 2"ioi 10 14 7 44 1 7 8 11 2 10 2 10 2 7 2 84 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 8 7J 10 104 10 10 9 14 3 6 3 6 8 6 10 6 12 6 13 6 14 6 14 6 16, 6 17 6 17 6 17 6 18 6 19 6 19 6 20 6 21 6 6 in. X 6 in. pilea, 8 in. X 8 in. pilea. 6 in. X 6 in. pi 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 84 in. X 54 in. piles. APPENDIX, 365 Description of Platform. Measurements. Cant. No. and in''neld Book. Name of Station. Top. Bottom. Height from rail. In. Out. Remarks Q-EEAT Westebn EAlLWAr — continued. Orange Huntley Spring Hill .... Milltliorpe Blajney Newbridge Wimbledon .... George's Plains . Perth Orton Part., Bathurst .... Kelso Eaglan Brewongle .... Loctsley ..' Parana Sod walls Eydal Wailerawang . Marrangaroo , Bowenfels ... Lithgow Eskbank . Zig Zag Clarence Siding . Bell Hartley Vale . . . . Mount Victoria . Blacklieath Medlow Eatoomba Wentworth Falls Lawson Hazelbrook Woodford Linden Numantia Faulconbridge ... Springwood The Valley , Karabar Blaxland Glenbrook Lucasville Emu Plains' Penritli Eingswood Parkes >> ' St. Mary's )) •■■•■•■•• Mount Druitt EootyHill » _ Boonside M Blaoktown Seven Hills )» ^ ' Toongabbie ^^ )» Went worth ville . . . Westmead )j Parramatta Park Parramatta >» ' Harris Park Brick... Timber Biiok . . . Masonry (brick cap.) Brick Timber Brick , Timber Brick (stone cap.) Brick (concrete cap.) Brick Timber Brick... Brick (stone cap.) Stone Brick (stone cap.) Brick Timber Masonry Brick , Timber , Brick (stone cap.) Timber . Masonry Brick (stone cap.) Timber Brick (stone cap.) Timber Brick (stone cap.) Timber Concrete Brick (stone cap.) Timber , Brick (stone cap.) Brick Brick (stone cap.) Timber Brick (stone cap.) Timber . Brick.... Timber Brick (stone cap.) 6i 61 7 6 5i 5i 6 6i 6 8 7 5i 6 6i 5i 4i 8i 6i 6 5 6 5 5i Bf 51 6 6f 5J 5i 6* 5i 6i 6.^ 5i 6 8f 4 5i 7f 6 71 H n 4i 51 64 6 ft. in. 2 4, 2 lOi 2 i 2 3| 2 4 2 3 2 4i 2 3 2 5 2 44 2 Hi 2 4 2 4i 3S 3i 4i 2 2 2 3 2 4i 2 3 2 4| 2 5 2 1 2 li 3 Oi 2 3i 2 3i 2 104 2 2 2 U 2 li 2 li 2 8i 2 Hi 2 7i 2 11 3 Oi 2 1 2 10 2 li 2 Hi 2 11 2 lOi 3 Oi 2 ICi 2 3i 2 Hi 2 11 2 7i 2 9i 2 5 2 1 2 2 2 10 2 lOi 2 7f 2 lOi 2 4i 2 4i 2 li 2 6 2 4f 2 9i 2 4| 2 4i 2 11 2 5i 2 4i 2 4i 3 If 2 9f 2 li 2 5 2 1 2 5 2 91 2 lOi 2 Of 2 1 2 1 2 ft. in. 2 9i 2 lOi 2 11 2 Hi 2 Hi 3 2 9i 2 9i 3 Oi 2 9J 2 9i 2 10 2 8i 2 11 2 Hi 3 5J 2 7i 2 lOi 2 10 2 11 2 9i 2 lOi 2 9i 2 8i 2 lOi 2 9i 2 9i 2 lOf 2 8i 2 9i 2 Hi 2 9i 2 8i 2 lOi 2 9i 2 lOi 2 9i 2 8i 2 lOi 2 Hi 2 10 2 10 2 lOi 2 9i 2 Hi 2 lOi 2 lOi 2 8i 2 Hi 2 Pi 2 9i 2 10 2 8 2 9i 2 lOi 2 8i 2 9i 2 Hi 2 9i 2 Hi 2 lOi 2 Hi 2 lOi 2 Hi 2 Hi 2 6 2 lOi 2 9i 2 11 2 Hi 2 11 2 8i 2 lOi 2 11 2 lOi 2 10 2 9i li li Page. No, 28 6 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 35 35 6 36 6 36 37 38 39 42 40 43 44 44 45 45 7 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 9 9 9 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 30 33 33 33 33 34 34 36 36 37 37 38 38 39 1 8 1 8 2 8 2 8 4 8 4 8 3 8 3 8 3 8 3 8 6 8 6 8 8 8 8 8 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6^in. X 6 in. piles. G in. X 6 in. pile? 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. .\ 6 in. piles, 21 ft. 2i in. Dishedljin., 21 ft. lin. Dished li in., 1ft 1 in. 6 in. X fi in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. I 21 ft. 1 in. 6 in. X 6 in. pjles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. 6 in. X 6 in. piles. Dished 2 in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 2C ft llj in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 20 ft. UJ in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 20 ft. llj in 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 20 ft. UJ in. SetofE2iin., 20ft.lltin. Set off 2i in., 20 ft. Hi in. Dished If in., 21- ft. Oi in. Setoffilfin., 21ft. OJin. Set off 2f in., 21 ft. 1 in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. 1 in. Set off 2 in., 21 ft. in. Set off 2 in., 21 ft. in. Dished If in., 21 ft. 1 in. Setoff 1| in., 21 ft. 1 in. Set off 2 in.", 21 ft. Oi in. Set off 2 in., 21 ft. Oi in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. 2^ in. 6 in X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. 2J in Dishedliin., 21ft. liin Set off li in., 21 ft. li in] Dished 2 in., 21 ft. 2 ip. Set off li in., 21 ft. 2 in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. IJ in. 6 in. X 6 in. piles, 21 ft. IJ in. Dished Ifin., 20 ft. Hi in. Dished if in., 20 ft. Hi in. Dished 1 Jin., 22 ft. Hi in. Dished 2 in., 22 ft. Hi in. 368 APPENDIX, Addition to joint report of trials of new American Engines on 10th April, 1802. I CONSIDEE that the performances, especially of the goods engines, has rarely or never been surpassed by Main Line engines in Australia or Europe. A load of 350 tons, exclusive of engine and tender, is the maximum load hauled up gradients of 1 in 100 in regular service in G-reat Britain, and on many lines the regular load for this gradient (which on our lines is moderate), is less than the American consolidation engine hauled unassisted up a gradient of 1 in 40, with long ten chain curves. The train the passenger engine hauled up the 1 in 33 gradient is equal to 7 lavatory carriages in weight. The power of the engine needs no further demonstration, as such a train exceeds the carrying capacity of the majority of fast express trains both in England and America, where such trains are more- over generally assisted over gradients steeper than 1 in 70. D. H. NEALE, 11/4/92. Secretary. The Secretary to The Railway Commissioners. Addendum to Eeport on Trials of American Engines on lOth April, 1892, between Wallerawang and Mount Victoria. 23 April, 1892. HAViura suspected from the behaviour of the engines on the 1-40 grade at Marangaroo that it was somewhat steeper than 1-40, I find now, from a special survey just made under the direction of the Engineer-in-Chief for Existing Lines, that after passing- over 50 chains of 10-chain reversed curves without any intermediate straight the engine came to a piece of 1-37-5 five chains in length, and that this doubtless checked the engine and was the cause of the slow average speed up the bank, as the check caused by the extra grade was coincident with the effect of the curvature and the engine slipping. The fact that the engine was able to pull the train up the bank, despite this combination of. grade and curvature, speaks volumes for the power of the engines. I annex tracing of the grade. D. H. NEALE. Appcndix /4. (5ee pdpe ^04-) N.S. W. R Western line DIAGRAM OF GRADES We/ PENRITH TO BATHURST I Hazelbrooj WOODFORC (MOTE do doT77v40"jrj^E do rhUS ^,-— Linden PHOTO-LITHOGRAPHED AT THE GOVT. PRINTING OFFICE SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES. FaULCONBRIDC! SPRINCWOOD^ KARABAR Slaxland GLENBROOK LAPSTON ZIC ZAC 5 6 7 8 9 40 6 7 8 50 7 8 Clarence Sioi K/KTOOMBA Blackheath '^--U'**'^ M"^ Victoria Wentworth Fal' DioiNc Siiirinnh X«ev«?l SG58 Peet V 5500I^eet V^ZigZag \ RVDAL LOiCKSLEY TRRflNR i3e 1/3 660 j_j III" I I I ^^V^ 4\ RnCLHN AOC 500 J Li 88 89 120) ^3A5G7 89 830 I 23456789 140 I Z 2> A S 3MnONI diO J.OOJ UAOflV -LHOI3H .0 Q» }i ^ •*i Vv V, APPENDIX, CO < J < P^ W ' :^ « 1 — 1 CO Ph >- J < 5 < -J ^ - < q: h- ^ z r/i Lll 2 y< (N Z o ffl ^ LU > O O • o PL, BQ *t ^ ^ 0) III _i > < ^ S p I u o CO w CO p 5 p^ LU o w > 1 — 1 Ph O u Maximum Grade Ascending. - o o (N o J;- CO o 'S o rH 1 rH -1 rH I CO 1 H H rH • • ■ • '• • • '• . CQ Sd ; ' I * * * ■ a> 'r-K n a d i> o • • * • : '-' ' * • ' " o rd ^ CQ Pi f4 • . T-l Q ; i—H S QQ " • • : cj .§ ^ ^ ■iH CQ IH h5 a OJ r, »> *i - o 1 — 1 r, <+-i "?j • 1— 1 -H o p^ • ■ a o a H^ CO o 00 I>- lO h^l ® "S ac sc 05 o -<# J>- O .3 g >o CO «:- rH (N ''J H 'o g CM lO kO »o O ■+J .M r-H g1 s (j^ -* lO CO 05 IC o s:^ (M (N H CM iH CO ^M w '• rg r^ : : : ■ +J -l-= 1 'r-l O : CQ ■+2 ^ m t/3 '^ 0) ?3 O H o • F-J ■ rH p_l *•«.—' 1=1 rt c3 , Q o o g: ^ ^ 1 -g ■4J Pi m OQ (32 m o o , , ^ ^ 02 ^ !^ )^ •r-s O =H o Pi o -H PI OS o o o f-< H Pi o PI Ph O Pt D (j3 to •i-H o m O • I-H 6— >r in >- o Q < UJ X I- > OH 03 in O o < Q _l o z o o (0 03 1- n u "^ Csj t^ 5 u CO - o<" I o \- o I a. o o < QQ >■ QO QQ CO cn ui q: a. >< Q X CM „6.-^ ^ cc a Cf CVJ o M o ^ "N o r-- 2, '^ IT) to o OO o o V 1- ■>J r~- S 111 H ID CO 10 0) I- C c -o 45 bj 1- 1— _^_ _C O-i ^ ^ Jl> ^ o to C\J -a c I 8 i o lii I CD o o o UJ CL cc Ml >- Ui CO CO cc CO UJ >- QQ 0. LJ 00 m ui Q. X UJ to -J z Q -J LxJ UJ X UI o z — to Km IL_I ^1 <1JJ UJ I H -J I o I- o I a. 6^ c • E «;; fi- ^ c yj s: ^ d ^ ^ z • >«Mi •y— CO W cc o X ^ ^1- c ^ C£l D C r ^ 03 U CQ Cx- t/J 0) _0 • __ .^ o CO vw C w ^ c 0) J— ^ (/) c/D X r «i) E XDl j Diagram of Engine N° 132. Class J. { Runninq upon some portions of the lines since 1879.^ ^5 9- Ik -— 9' ■■ 2%. - 9- B'z Over CfUNoeiss CO \-='^'=v APPENDIX. H =5 ffi I ^ H S ^ I (^ 1-H 00 i rH rt l-l h I g 0} 82 (D P4 n <1 o ^ a O (D (J) !?; I « 1) oo M P I O fl |2i ^ y < <1 (D 1 ^ h ^ h rt < Ph fi h Ct3 1— 1 CD H W b H 6— 1-1 . , 05 a O 05 QO r-i 1 1 $t o « 3 tJ3 •4 ^ l^icc 1-5 ►-? <1 § Hi =8 „ -^ „ " .. ., iitb i^ N £> S « o ^c§H 1 IT 1 ft? :; :; - :; :; - 'J (u a; CO T3 T3 3^ 00 IB fl I •^^ ;-*' ^^ s CC £ «^ d 3 o ■TS 'S "bo O • rH rG ' 05 fcl =1 h ^=3 zo , £ OQ > .s s Ph O -3 CQ 03 1 05 .9 *" 0, eg 05 5 S£3 3 -M HI P .g OJ q 3 Ph §W N: 03 i s 9 g c3 a « M K W P^ P^ l|^' ED 4i "T* O o ^^~ 'SI .* * CO • CO rH * CD xjl o - t- 05 6 00 00 05 • iH 6 OS 6 iH S S.£^ 1— < . rH T^ rH rH 1.1 00 00 ■4^ 'do Weight per ya on ea Id 1-^ £§ o .* . CO : 00 ; J> : o : • 1—1 . 05 do o a o 00 co" o c o £ CI CO O CO ™-» ^<>3 'a Hi" S 05 !S CO =0 a s M co''i> K5 J 1 CO 00 c. .co- J >o"cn J> CO rH " 1— 1 /-N lO lU KJ ^ CO «5 1 S CD ii o -4-J 02 - "a 05 1; o O o a 03 t- tmum ht on axle. "Sir 4- -i- •4--!- •4- ■4- rt|c» ■* CD O .CO O 05 CO 00 O U5 o >0 (N iH iH 1-1 t-Kt-^ T^ H illl,u j3'S c i =» iOi> t- lO kO »o lo •* >n x> 1> V5 CO 3 '-I iH t-l iH rH iH rH rH -J rH rH ^-A rH rH 6D 1 . .9 o oi fe ?D O 05 O (M CO 1— 1 CO rH ^ £ : rH : : "-1 rH o ^ ■1* no ■ coo; IM (M : : i^, CD 00 o,j> fl 05 CO o; 03 i> GO 1> 03 05 •- u -(3 o UD^i I 6 .s l« 00 1-1 O CO o O O 00 O CO CO 1> 00 ^ iH T-< rH r^ 5b ' s, IS] oi W 05 t^ o 00 00 00 05 03 (N CO \a 00 0 kO lO »o >o >o >o lO >o ■* ^ lO lO . . ^"^ ; ; ■ ; * NO \ '. \ '• ; s Ph 'S M .ti 2 _n M 'S . 1 O § •3 o H^ : -J-J Si 05 Ph O o o ' ' ' o g ■^-vS • iP p 1 1 pq : ad M 1 ^ R^ S !;pw' p: IS ^ i3 ^ o P -p m -a an a a fe 11 t4 Ph -4J fe <^4H t>~, O CM rU CD ill ,S O T3 o CQ p a o ;-! a ea p p to si a R r§ o H .^ nS 2 1— H d m +> CQ a> o N ;^ 4S cS ti P 03 rri . zn »rl S 1^ Tl CU 4J '^ Ph 1 o ClH OQ 3 o rt 0) a> -> (B rfl ■p a o o OQ ,1 .§• 4^ rJ:3 ■3 bn !h W) ■JTi Ph a P _(I) "> m Sd 03 ^ to c3 QQ >. ^ • <1 <1 * -K 05 CO APPENDIX I. /Ippendix to rdpor}: by Messrs Kidd &- Pollock DIAGRAM OF GRADE — Showing Where Imdicator cards were taken and corre spondino boller pressure Pressure lbs. N" Card ISiT ISS- ISO 2 5 4 ISO 147 I40 I5S 5 6 7 » f4 i's Pressi/he Its N" OP Card & /z ^ff<^ ;^ ^ J^ «- ^ ^ 4«<3<5 «' ^z ^57 4^i5 X^ ^ ^4* /^ >4 ^4-'6- ;4< ^ f^i6 '/^ '/z %.S7 Pressure lis i6o \bo 15015s i«b' N" OB Card 16 17 18 19 20 ISS ISS ISO Z2 23 Zt Pressure Its \bo 155 WS. 154' ISS ISS 154' 155 S SSJ N" Of Card Z5 26 27 2» Z? 30 3/ 32 3134353^ Mill I 1 ^'^ 'k h ^ 'h ^^ /<. 'A %*''* ;^ /4 ^^ "^^/^ /z ^'^.'^'^ /^ /a y/^ /^ >i ^^.^"^ /^ ;* '•'^^ Pressure lbs N° OP Card ;55 ISO 57 38 ISS ISS ISO, 145 I40 41 4Z 45 44 4S %^ 'U ^ f*^'^ /« /z ^'^TT^^r^/^ /2 ^M^^ '/^ (slg.s) PHOTO-LITHOQRAPHED AT THE GOVT. PRINTING OFFICE SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES. APPENDIX TO MPSS'^s KIDD AND POILOCK'S RPPORT. New South Wales Railways ( Southern Main Line ) Diagram oF Grades \pmim m mum Hill Top SCALES Horizontal_3 Miles to I Verbical_400 Feet do Inch do NOTE Grades I in 40 shewn thus do I m 30 £33 do do Lithographed & Printed at: the Department oP Lands. Sj/dney. ty. S. IV. 1832. H^ofbth D 92 2^ Thirlmere PiCTON Lakes PiCTON Distance from Sydney _ 52 3 4 Colo Vale mittaconc I I Rush's Platform Mdes 5 6 89 60 I 23 456 8 9 70 I 3 4 5 6 7 (Sig. 6 ) Appendix J lbs 20000 — LOCOMOTIVES — ■ TRACTIVE POWER & HORSE POWER INDICATED AT VARIOOS SPEEDS — 10 Wheeled Baldwin^ N.S.Wales & BalhmorefcOhio Railways 19000 700 I8000 800 !r,ooo 900 I6O0O lOOO lbs 15000 TP IIOO I.H.R to IZ 14 16 18 zo 2Z 24^ 26 — 28 Note RAI LW A Y Indicated Horse Power TR] S^cT/r^afTE U Ohio 77^ /'^ts THUS (g) UP l-46bQ)u,.l-S6 X /v. S. W. WAi.i.cn.tnr^'VO. TKl^LS IT ® ' /-33, ® - /-*>, ® • ISO * yt r< yf -^/cr-oyv ,t If Q . /-50 ^ ■ ;4^ + rs/^ej 30 ft. ^^.) Stycf, yd^^