' ' ' ' i. 7 ''i, olinJ '■ 1', E. X5 U3^ Huntington Free Library Native American 1, 1 Collection ?.' h^ioi 1, ., , ^ . ■" vJ ir t ,. CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY \ 1 . 1?„ ;' \, '!'*!-- :, /;'■'■ ''■ !/■ / / ' CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY 3 1924 097 702 090 Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/cletails/cu31924097702090 59th Congress \ SENATE / Report No. 5013 ' 2d Session J \ Part 1 .J-^ ^ REPORT ///4- (lJ^5Xl^f^X-V:V ;-...,c.-^ THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE MATTERS CONNECTED WITH ^AFFAIRS IN THE INT^IAN TERRITORY^ WITH HEARINGS NOVEMBER 11, 1906-JANUARY 9, 1907 IN TWO VOLUMES VOL. 1 Report and Part 1 of Hearings tjrOPLlGAT WASHINGTON, D. C. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1907 B E7^ V.I MV5EVM OFTHEAnER.lCAN INDIAN! 59th Congress \ SENATE / Report No. 5013 2d ScsMon i \ Part 1 - - ^ ( REPORT OF r|^ IHE SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE MATTERS CONNECTED WITH AFFAIRS IN THE INDIAN TERRITORY WITH HEARINGS NOVEMBEE 11, 1906-JANUARY 9, 1907 IN TWO VOLUMES VOL. 1 Report and Part 1 of Hearings WASHINGTON, D. C. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1907 «THE NEW ^ORK! ! PUBLIC LIBRA RYi ' ASTt'h, uEi'JOX i TILDEN *-""■' INDATIOI^. 1 !i£Z_ >J- I COMMITTEE: Senator Clarence D. Clark, of Wyoming, Chairman. Senator Chester I. Long, of Kansas. Senator Frank B. Bhandegee, of Connecticut. Senator Henry M. Teller, of Colorado. Senator William A. Clark, of IMontana. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Januaey 16, 1907. — Eeferred to the Committee on Indian Affairs i.n ordered to be printed. Mr. Claek, of Wyoming, from the Select Committee to Investigate Matters Connected with Affairs in the Indian Territory, submitted the following REPORT. To the Senate of the United States : The select committee appointed under the provisions of Senate res- olution of June 30, 1906, to investigate all matters connected with the conditions of affairs in Indian Territory in relation to legit 'tion in- cluded in the act entitled "An act to provide for the final disposition of the affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes " and kindred matters in said Territory, begs leave to submit the following partial report : On June 30, 1906, the Senate of the United States authorized the appointment of a select committee consisting of five Senators, under a Senate resolution, as follows: Resolved, That a select committee consisting of five Senators be appointed to fully investigate all matters connected with the condition of affairs in the Indian Territory in relation to legislation included in the act entitled 'An Act to provide for the final disposition of the affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes in the Indian Territory, and for other purposes,' approved April twenty-sixth, nineteen hundred and six, and kindred matters in said territory with reference to the Five Civilized Tribes, and that said committee be authorized to employ a stenographer to report its hearings and all necessary clerical assistance ; and said committee is authorized to sit in the City of Washington and in the Indian Territory or elsewhere, as circumstances may demand, with power to send for persons and papers and to administer oaths, and shall make full and complete report, together with their conclusions and recom- mendations, to the Senate of the United States, on the first Monday in December, anno Domini, nineteen hundred and six. The necessary expenses of said committee shall be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senate. Under said resolution the President of the Senate appointed said committee as follows: Senator C. D. Clark, Wyoming, chairman; Sen- ator Chester I. Long, Kansas; Senator Frank B. Brandegee, Con- necticut; Senator H. M. Teller, Colorado; Senator W. A. Clark, Montana. The committee organized at Denver, Colo. , on August 10, 1906, and on November 12, 1906, met at Kansas City, Mo., and at once proceeded to Indian Territory, where public hearings were held at Vinita, Musko- gee, McAlester, Ardmore, Tulsa, and Bartlesville. II ' FIVE OIVIIiIZED TKTBES. These meetings were open and free, and the public was fully advised as to the dates and invited to be present and give to the committee such information as might be available and offer such suggestions as might be deemed proper by the persons appearing. Special effort, and with marked success, was made to have the Indians, both those of the full and those of the mixed bloods, fully represented. While the time of the committee in the Territory was necessarily limited, it is believed that opportunity was offered for everyone who desired to do so, to give his views upon matters of general interest. Much information was obtained by the committee as to existing conditions, and not a few valuable suggestions received as to legislation which might be beneficial. The committee at the very beginning of its investigations was struck by the magnitude of the interests involved, the unsatisfactory condi- tions prevailing, and the difficulties of arriving at just conclusions as to necessary legislation. The matters of greatest immediate concern seem to be : (a) The proper disposition of the large tract of land in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, segregated from allotment by the Executive as coal and asphalt lands under act of Congress approved July 1, 1902, and acts amendatory thereof and supplemental thereto. (5) The question of the restrictions upon the alienation of lands taken in allotment by the individuals of each of the civilized tribes. (c) The rights of certain classes of people to be enrolled on the tribal rolls as citizens who had been denied such enrollment by reason of being partly of negro blood. (d) The situation in regard to oil and gas upon allotted lands and the governmental procedure with relation thereto. (e) Many questions of less general interest, but to which attention should be given in order to secure needed legislation. Upon all these principal matters and upon many of less general interest, voluminous information was received, which was reduced in all cases to writing and which is returned herewith. In all its inquiry and deliberations, the committee has been much embarrassed by the former legislation by Congress as to the legal status of the members of the Five Civilized Tribes. By definite and express act of Congress, March 3, 1901, each member of these tribes was made a citizen of the United States, and as such, under the Con- stitution, and under the terms of said law, entitled to all the rights, privileges, and immunities of every other citizen of the United States. Yet, notwithstanding this express legislative naturalization. Congress, in its subsequent legislation, and the Department of the Interior, acting under such legislation, has apparently ignored entirely this established citizenship, and in nearly every instance has treated the questions arising within the Five Civilized Tribes as though no such acts had ever been passed and as though the Indians were still in the broadest sense the wards of the Government. In other words, it appears that since the passage of the act above referred to the Con- gress of the United States and the Department of the Interior have proceeded in dealing with Indian Territory affairs along the same lines as were followed before said act was passed. Many complaints have been submitted to the committee of private or personal interest and which do not affect any considerable number, and while the committee has, so far as possible, heard the interested parties, it has not considered it possible to take action or make report in such specific oases. ^ FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Ill THE SEGBEGATED COAL AND ASPHALT LANDS. By act of Congress approved July 1, 1902, it was provided among other things that the Secretary of. the Interior should cause to be segregated coal and asphalt lands in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, not to exceed in extent 500,000 acres, the same to be sold for cash, under terms and conditions as provided in said act. Pro- ceeding under the provisions of that law, the Secretary of the Interior caused thus to be segregated from allotment 4M,983 acres, and duly caused the improvements upon the surface of said lands to be appraised. Included within this segregation were lands under lease to different persons and corporations to the extent of 100280 acres, each of said leases having an unexpired term of twenty years and upward to run. Under the provisions of said act of Con- gress the Secretary of the Interior caused full information to be pub- lished and offered said segregated lands for sale in the year 1904. None of the bids received, however, for one or more tracts was accept- able to the Secretary of the Interior and none was accepted. By said act of July 1, 1902, the authority to lease any of the unleased lands within said segregation was withdrawn, and under the act of April 26, 1906, it was provided that all said lands, whether leased or unleased, should be reserved from sale until the existing leases for coal and asphalt lands should have expired or until such time as might be otherwise provided by law. Under these several acts of Congress, therefore, this land stands segregated from allotment, but no authority in the Secretary of the Interior or elsewhere to make new leases or to sell the said doal land without a further act of Congress is given. The present revenue under leases now in operation, which is used for school purposes by the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, amounts to about $250,000 per annum upon a royalty of 8 cents per ton mine run. The committee in its investigation sought diligently, by personal observation and by soliciting information both from interested and dis- interested sources, to ascertain the value of these lands. Special atten- tion was paid this inquiry because of exaggerated views that have found expression in regard not only to the value of the land per acre but to the extentand quality of the actual producing coal lands included in said segregation. There will be found in exhibits attached to this report estimates placed upon the land from experts connected with the operation of certain portions of the land under lease; from the United States inspector of mines for Indian Territory; from the Director of the United States Geological Survey and others connected with that Bureau; from the Secretary of the Interior, himself an owner and operator of large tracts of coal lands, and from many others well informed on the subject; and from all the evidence and state- ments thus submitted, while the committee is unable to arrive at a definite price per acre which might be considered the fair value of all the land, it may be reasonably said that the entire value of the said segregation per acre for the mineral rights alone and the necessary surface for outside workings may be safely put, as indicated by the Director of the Geological Survey, at from $5 to |40, dependent upon the amount of coal actually in the land, varying expense of mining, and access to transportation. The development of the oil and gas industry in territory formerly supplied with fuel from these coal fields and the incoming competition rv FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. from mines in other localities will, in the opinion of the committee, tend to restrict any great increase in the value of this property in the near future. The best evidence obtainable shows that a considerable portion of the surface of the segregated lands is suitable for agricultural purposes and at a fair valuation worth from $10 to $15 per acre. Two ways have been submitted for the disposal of the lands: First. An outright sale under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior to the highest bidder, in such tracts as the bidder may desire. Second. The sale of the surface of said land, reserving the mineral right thereto, to individual settlers in small tracts for farming pur- poses, and the sale of the mineral rights in such tracts and under such terms and conditions as might be approved by the Secretary of the Interior. It is the insistent opinion of the authorities of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and of the great majority of the Indians themselves having interests in common in said tract, that the lands should be dis- posed of in such a manner as to bring the greatest possible price, and at an early date, and the opinion of the nations themselves seems to be that this purpose could be best accomplished by sale outright of the surface and mineral rights without separation and in one transaction. The committee is not of opinion, however, that this course would result in obtaining the greatest price or would be for the ultimate best interests, either of the tribes or of the individual members thereof, or for the general public good. In the vicinity of these lands, and in many cases upon the lands, are towns of considerable importance, and it is clearly apparent that the surface of the segregation, much of which is first-class farming land, should, as early as is possible, pass into individual ownership. The interests of the Indians, the necessities of the new State, and many other considerations, seem to demand that this be done; but as to the mineral rights the same necessity does not exist. Indeed, in the judg- ment of the committee, the time is not now propitious for a final decision as to the disposition of these mineral rights. A fair income is now being derived from present leasing operation, and except for the advisability of closing up as early as practicable the community affairs of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, no necessity exists for action in the near future as to the disposal of these lands, so far as the mineral rights are concerned. It has been presented to the committee that there has been appointed by the constitutional convention now in session at Guthrie, Okla., a committee to examine these lands with a view to acquiring the same by the State of Oklahoma, within whose boundaries the lands will fall; and that such committee is required to report to the first legislature of the new State. Upon consideration of the whole matter the commit- tee recommends that no immediate action be taken by Congress as to the leasing or sale of the mineral in said lands, but that immediate steps be taken to provide for the sale of the surface of said segrega- tion for the best price obtainable, in tracts not exceeding 160 acres each to actual bona fide settlers, reserving from sale a sufficient amount of surface for the necessary outside works, buildings, and operation of mines. The committee is convinced that by dealing thus separately with the surface and the mineral, the best price can be obtained for the owners and the best results will accrue to the State and its people. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBE3. V KEMOVAL OF RESTRICTIONS. By the act of March 3, 1901, all Indians in Indian Territory were made citizens of the United States. The Indian Tribes had title to these lands by patents from the United States. These lands were occupied in common by the members of the respective tribes. By the supplemental agreements made in 1902 these Indians agreed to take their lands in severalty upon condition that they could alienate their allotments within a certain period, which differed in the several tribes. We believe that Congress might shorten this period and permit alien- ation at an earlier date. Congress, by the act of April 21, 1904, removed the restrictions upon the alienation of all allottees of either of the' Five Civilized Tribes who were not of Indian blood, except minors, and except as to homesteads, and provided that restrictions upon the alienation of all other allottees, except minors, and except as to homesteads, might, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, be removed upon application to the Indian agent at the Union Agency. Section 19 of the act of April 26, 1906, provides that no full-blood Indian of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, or Seminole tribes should have power to alienate, sell, dispose of, or encumber in any manner any of the lands allotted to him for a period of twenty-five years from and after the approval of that act, unless such restrictions, prior to the expiration of said period, shall be removed by act of Congress. We believe that this last legislation was unwise, injurious to the Indians, and of no validity. Congress, after providing in the supple- mental agreements that all the lands allotted to the citizens of the different tribes should be alienable within certain periods, could not, without the consent of the Indians, extend the time in which the lands could not be alienated and add to the restrictions imposed by the orig- inal agreements. The effect of this legislation has already clouded, and, if unrepealed, will continue to cloud the title of much land in Indian Territory, and will result in endless litigation. It will prevent the Indians from obtaining a fair price for their lands, and has been and will continue to be a fruitful source of dis- honest transactions. It will not prevent sales being made at the expiration of the periods designated in the supplemental agreements, and has alreadj' resulted in contracts being made for such sales. This provision is generally considered to be invalid and should be repealed. We recommend that all restrictions be removed from the surplus lands of all citizens of the Five Civilized Tribes, except minors. We recommend the removal of restrictions as to homestea(j^ of the members of -such tribes who are not of Indian blood, which mcludes intermarried white citizens and freedmen. The removal of restrictions on the alienation should also include the removal of restrictions as to encumbering and leasing. We believe that the restrictions should remain upon the homesteads of citizens of Indian blood, which would include both full bloods and mixed bloods. This will insure each member of every family a home that can be improved from the funds derived from the sale of his surplus lands. A homestead in Indian Territory is not like a homestead on the public domain, where the head of the family only has a home- VI FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBE3. stead. A homestead in Indian Territory consists of from 40 to 160 acres of average land for each member of the tribe, and may or may not be his place of residence. A family of six may have homesteads aggregating from 240 to 960 acres, and in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations such a family may have from 480 to 12,000 acres, which would still be inalienable under the supplemental agreements and the legis- lation which we here recommend. OIL AND GAS. Meetings of the select committee were held to investigate the ques- tions of oil and gas at Vinita, Tulsa, and Bartlesville, where hearings were had and statements made by the many people engaged in these industries, as well as by all others who desired to be heard. The regulation providing a limit of area not to exceed 4,800 acres to any one individual or company governing the oil lands seemed to be generally satisfactory to all parties, except that a party interested in a 4,800-acre tract, even though only to a small extent, is prohibited from having an interest in any other lease. There was a general con- tention that each party should be entitled to hold in several companies, if so desired, so that he should be entitled to an aggregate holding of 4,800 acres, though said holdings might be distributed in different companies. The royalty at one-tenth was not complained of and seemed to be generally satisfactory. There was universal complaint as to the requirement of the Depart- ment for a deposit of $5,000 in bank as a guaranty for each lease, and it is the opinion of your committee that this regulation should be modified or dispensed with where the parties obtaining leases would make a showing of ability to carry out their contracts. There was also a general demand that leases should be transferable without necessity of securing consent of the Secretary of the Interior, and this would seem to be a reasonable demand, provided always that in no instance should the maximum limit of 4,800 acres to a single holder be exceeded. It was the concensus of opinion among the producers that there should be some local authority in the Territory to pass upon applica- tions for leases, and thereby avoid the long delay which they claim usually occurs in having an application submitted to the authorities at Washington, and if a proper tribunal or agency could be established to carry out this plan it would seem to be advisable to adopt it. At present there are only two pipe lines running into the Indian Territory, both belonging to the Prairie Oil and Gas Company, one a 6-inch line and the other an 8-inch line, and the total capacity of the two lines is only 50,000 barrels per day. From the best information obtainable, the oil district, which comprises an area of about 100 miles frona north to south and about 40 miles wide, extending from the Kan- sas line to a point below Tulsa, and which is being enlarged from time to time by new developments, is capable of producing with the wells now completed about 200,000 barrels of oil daily. It is evident that the pipe-line facilities are wholly inadequate to supply transportation. One or two lines have been contemplated, and one or more companies have been formed to construct pipe lines from Tulsa to Port Arthur FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBE8. VII or some other point on the Gulf of Mexico where there are ample refining facilities and harbors which would permit of shipment and distribution of the product to foreign countries. Evidently what they need is more pipe lines, as under present conditions they are not receiving a fair price for their product, the present price being about 39 cents per barrel. The oil in that region has a gravity of about 32, which, while a little inferior to the Pennsylvania product, is very much superior to the oils of California. It is very probable that all the capital necessary to build a sufficient number of lines to meet the requirements of this great oil region could easily be raised, pro- vided the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior were sufficiently liberal to warrant capitalists to construct the same. Under date of December 21, 1906, the Department of the Interior issued reg- ulations governing the granting of rights of way for pipe lines, pump- ing stations, and storage tanks and their construction, operation, and maintenance for the transportation and storage of oil through land situated within Oklahoma and the Indian Territory. Some of these provisions, however, are of such a drastic nature that your committee is of the opinion that no competent parties would undertake the con- struction of pipe lines in pursuance thereof. One objectionable feature of the regulations which has been pointed out is, that it will " require individuals of companies granted rights of way for pipe lines to construct additional stations and extend their pipe lines to particular wells or pools at their own expense, and if in the exercise of this authority a question shall arise as to the fairness of such proceeding, the decision of the Secretary of the Interior therein shall be final." We believe that this gives a Secretary of the Interior, who might be inclined to act in an arbitrary manner, too much power. There is also another provision of similar import, which reads as follows: " Any permit granted heretofore or under these regulations shall be subject to any changes or amendments in or to these regulations hereafter made by the Secretary of the Interior." Further provision is made, as an " express condition" of the accept- ance of a permit or permission to build or operate a pipe line and appurtenances under these regulations, that if at any time the Secre- tary of the Interior shall be satisfied that any of the provisions of these regulations or of any amendments or changes thereof hereafter established have been or are being violated, the said Secretary of the Interior, after ten days' notice to the owner or owners of such pipe line of his intention so to do, shall have "authority summarily to suspend, cancel, or revoke" such permission under certain conditions, which are stated. It is doubtful whether any company could be financed under such uncertain conditions, which are subject entirely to the uncontrolled discretion of a Secretary of the Interior. Your committee approves of stringent regulations to prevent monopolies, but they should be of such a character that they would not work a forfeiture of property^ without due process of law. _We believe that Congress should provide appropriate general regulations with reference to oil and gas leases and the transportation of said com- modities in the Indian Territory. VIII FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. WITHDRAWAL OF LANDS FROM ALLOTMENT. Many earnest and insistent protests have been received against the withdrawal from allotment by the Secretary of the Interior of a large body of land in the Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Cherokee nations. The original withdrawal was of about 4,000,000 acres and also suspended further action as to perfecting complete individual title to all allot- ments already made within the area withdrawn. This was subse- quently modified by rescinding the order as to allotments already made and by cutting down the area about one-half. The committee has carefully considered this matter and is of the opinion that the order of withdrawal was without authority of law. The agreement with the tribes and the act of Congress approved July 1, 1902, authorized and directed the allotments to be made as soon as piacticable, and that law, the committee believes, can not be set aside, impeded, or modified except by act of Congress repealing or changing the original statute. The Secretary of the Interior advised your committee that he had made this order of withdrawal upon the request of the Secretary of Agriculture, who contemplated establishing a forest reservation therein if Congress should authorize the purchase by the Government of the land from the Indians for that purpose; but the committee is of opinion that, whatever may have been the purpose or object of the Secretary of the Interior, he had no authority under the law to make the order of withdrawal. The investigation made by the committee has satisfied it that the general situation in the Indian Territory, so far as concerns the rela- tionship between the Government of the United States and the several Indian tribes and the individual members thereof is such as to demand as speedy action by Congress as may be consistent with the magnitude, and multitude of the interests involved. In view of this fact the committee submits this partial report, and at an early day, if permitted by the Senate, will submit to the Senate its conclusions upon other matters herein referred to, which have been subjects of its inquiries. Kespectfully submitted, C D. Clark. Chester I. Long. Frank B. Brandegee. H. M. Teller. W. A. Clark. HEARINGS BEFORE A SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE APPOINTED BY RESOLUTION OF JUNE 30, 1906, TO INVES- TIGATE MATTERS IN THE INDIAN TERRITORY CONNECTED WITH THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, THE COMMITTEE CONSISTING OF MESSRS. CLARK, OF WYOMING (CHAIRMAN), LONG, BRANDEGEE, TELLER, AND CLARK, OF MONTANA. Following is thp'resolution creating the committee and defining the scope of the investigation: Resolved, That a select committee coDsisting of five Senators be appointed to fully investigate all matters connected with the condition of affairs in the Indian Territory in relation to legislation included in the act entitled "An act to provide for the final disposition of the affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes in the Indian Territory, and for other purposes," approved April twenty-sixth, nineteen hundred and six, and kindred matters in said Territory with reference to the Five Civilized Tribes, and that said com- mittee be authorized to employ a stenographer to report its hearings and all necessary clerical assistance; and said committee is authorized to sit in the city of Washington and*in the Indian Territory or elsewhere, as circumstances may demand, with power to send for persons and papers and to administer oaths, and shall make full and com- plete report, together with their conclusions and recommendations, to the Senate of the United States, on the first Monday in December, Anno Domini nineteen hundred and six. The necessary expenses of said committee shall be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senate. Agreed to June 30, 1906. Kansas City, Mo., Novemier 11, 1906. The committee convened at the Hotel Baltimore, Kansas City, at 10.30 a. m. this day. Present: Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming (chairman). Long, and Teller. STATEMENT OF MB. EDWARD C. WRIGHT. The Chairman. Please state your residence and occupation. Mr. Weight. I am a lawyer, residing and practicing in Kansas City, Mo. The Chairman. What is the exact matter, Mr. Wright, which you wish to bring to the attention of the committee? Mr. Wright. It is the matter known as the Ford and Childs leases, in the Atoka district of the Indian Territory, taken in this maimer: Under the Choctaw laws and constitution an individual Indian who discovers minerals on land in the undistributed portion of the Choctaw public lands has the right, so long as he shall wish, to take out min- erals from the Territory for a mile in every direction from his discovery shaft, provided he does not interfere with the prior approjpriation of some one else nor with the prior location on the surface of some one claiming the surface rights. Starting from Coalgate there are three coal crops which come to the surface and radiate from Coalgate. In 3 4 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 1892 indications of coal having been found down there, the parties whom I represent sent experts down there with diamond drills The Chairman. Who are the parties that you represent ? Mr. Weight. Newton B. Childs, claiming for himself and Dr. J. M. Ford, formerly of Denison, Tex. After sinking these shafts and prospecting this region, and having the reports made by these experts, they took leases from the indi- vidual Indians, under the head-right claim, and built shafts on each particular portion, as was required by the Choctaw laws. At about that time the act providing for United States courts in the Indian Territory, by a rider attached to the bill, removed all restrictions on the Indians' leasing their ground for a period of more than ten years,' and it then provided for national agents of the two nations who should have supervision of the mining rights. These leases of the individual Indians were taken before the national agents, and what we call national contracts, or national licenses, to take out coal at an increased royalty (part to be paid to the head-right Indian and part to be paid to the nation), were approved and made matters of record in the Territory, and were offered for approval and for record in the Department at Washington, and approval and record refused because the Department in a written opinion had stated that restrictions had been removed and record in Washington was not essential to mining rights in the Indian Territory. The parties then, under their head-right leases and under national contract, were bound to construct a rauroad for the development, of this coal field (to connect with the Santa Fe Railroad) another rail- road which is now a part of the Frisco system — I do not remember what the name of it was then. They surveyed and graded 150 miles of railroad through that Territory. That road is now the Choctaw, Oklahoma and Gulf. It was then the Denison and Northern. They provided for the construction of that road. The death of Senator Stanford, of California, brought a cessation of a goodly portion of the supplies that were being used in the construction oif the road, and a contract was made with the contractors to finish the road under a new .contract. Up to that time the parties. Ford and Childs, had invested some- thing over $80,000 of their own money, which was approximately all that they could themselves raise. The Chairman. Was that in the mining operations or in the con- struction of the road ? Mr. Weight. That was in both, but mostly in the construction of the road to the mines, as a branch line, to bring the coal crop entirely within the limits. That portion they conceived to be the most impor- tant part, because without that they could not mine coal to advantage, there being no method of transportation for the coal. But they had paid to the individual Indians royalties in advance to the tune of several thousands of dollars, and had constructed a strip pit and had coal taken out and tested thoroughly, and had reports made. With their diamond drill they had ascertained the vein all over the Territory covered by their leases, and had sunk a number of discovery shafts down to the coal, so as to verify the statements based upon the dia- mond-drill work. Just at that time, as they were to go ahead with the development of coal, and had begun the actual operation of a portion of the railway riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. intended to develop this field, the contractor failed and applied to the United States court for a receiver for the railroad. A receiver was appointed and receivers' certificates were issued and a contest begun through the courts there, and went up to the United States court of appeals, covering several years of litigation. In order to provide for the completion of the road these parties were compelled to surrender their rights under the road construction, and that road is now owned by the Frisco System; it was acquired by them; but the parties had reserved their rights in the coal lands and had done just a sufficient amount of work to keep those things alive but had never attempted to miae coal in commercial quantities. Then the Curtis act was passed, which purported to abrogate all leases and compel all parties to come in and take their leases in tracts of 960 acres instead of in the larger tracts under which they had acquired their rights and on which they had paid royalties, and to compel them to pay on these tracts of 960 acres a royalty the first year of $100, the second year of $100, the third year of $200, the fourth year of $200, and the fifth year, and each year thereafter, of $500 on each tract of 960 acres, which was such a burden on unimproved lands at that time, in their condition, after this long fight in the courts, as absolutely to preclude them from compliance. So we wrote to the Department about the matter and have, since that time, been trying to get recognition of our rights in the Depart- ment, to enable us, with reasonable certainty of returns, to invest the amount of money necessary in improvements down there, in the sink- ing of shafts, etc., to enable us to get out the coal and develop the property. The Chaieman. How much land, all told, is there under these leases that you speak of? Mr. Weight. The national contracts covered a tract of from 8 to 15 miles running along partly on the coal crop and partly on the other commercial lands and only a portion of that is among the sequestered coal lands. That will be pointed out on the map. The Chairman. The northern part of your land comes in the segregation, does it? Mr. Weight. It would be the southwestern part of our land, I think; that is my recollection. It runs up past lands that had been estab- lished by the Government engineers as coal lands, and outside the sequestered coal regions. We have been prevented by the action of the Department down there, twice, from developing it; and they offered this land for sale. The Chairman. They only offered for sale that portion that was within the segregation? Mr. Weight. Yes; and except two small portions they have never been able to sell because of this complication. Parties do not care to touch it; and while it has been resting in that shape it has seemed to us that there was no possibility of relief in the courts; that we must get it so that we might go into the courts and establish our rights. , And it is keeping back that land, which is undoubtedly the best basis of industry in the Territory. The Chaieman. Where is that located, as regards McAlester ? _ Mr. Weight. It is quite a little distance from McAlester (indicat- ing by reference to the map). It comes from this point marked "W. C. Fordyce" on this map of the Lehigh district, runs up covering 6 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. this Coalgate Company matter in this northeasterly direction and then runs out over this leased land, farm land, and dowij in this direction, southwesterly, and back agam to this point of beginning, covering m part those tracts numbered 26, 27, and up to 28. It just covers this part of the outcrop and the rest of it is over there; it is not segregated coal land. All that our reports will furnish to the committee. Goalgate is right here, and South McAlester is oflF to the northeast. 1 do not think it is on this map at all. This land that is marked "Southwestern Development Company" in these larger tracts was leased shortly after this, and the leases are identical with the leases which we secured, both in the individual contracts and the national contracts. Our provisions there as to royalty were satisfactory to the national agents and to the individual Indians, and we gave a bond, which was approved by the national agents for the payment of royal- ties. We have been prepared for several years now to begin a thorough development of that property, to get out the coal and to work it to its highest degree of efficiency; the money has been secured, but the parties have not felt that they wanted to sink several hundred thousand dollars there in permanent improvements while they had the opposition of the Interior Department. The Chairman. I gather, in short, that your complaint, if we can call it a complaint, is that Congress, by its action, and the Interior Department, Dy its ruhng, has divested you of rights which you had under the law and had acquired in compliance with the law at a prior date? Mr. Wright. If that is the effect of the Curtis Act, our contention is that it is an erroneous construction of the Curtis Act, and we have brought that point to the attention of the Department. In 1904 the report of Commissioner Tonner states that the reason our leases were not approved was that we did not have a national con- tract, and after calling the attention of the Department to the fact that we had a national contract, and had acted under that national contract, and had given a bond which was approved by the national agents, we have not been able to get anything further from the Depart- ment. But they did inform us that if we started work they would stop us at once. If the effect of the Curtis Act, which contains a large number of pro- visions, is to divest Ford and Ghilds of their rights, rights for which they had paid, and as to which they had made full compliance with the law, we object seriously to that. But oiir contention always has been that that was not the true effect of the Curtis Act, but that other provisions of the act protected us, and that we should have been left by the Department free to go down there, and should have been left a free hand to develop the property, and leave for the courts to deter- mine the proper construction of that act. The Chairman. My idea of the Department rulings is that in many cases they seem to be entirely inconsistent, one with another. You have doubtless discovered that. Mr. Weight. They approved the Southwestern leases, which were identical with ours, and did not approve ours, because at that time we were not in full operation of the coal fields. We never had the inten- tion to cease to actively operate the property, but it would have been a piece of absurdity to get out that coal and pile it on top of the ground while waiting for our railroad to go there. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 7 The Chairman. But I understand you to say that you paid, during all that time, your royalties. Mr. Wright. We paid royalty to the individual Indians, and we have had the affidavits of some of the head righters that they had gone underground themselves The Chairman. What do you mean by "head rightets?" Mr. Wright. I am a title examiner more than anything else, per- haps. I have examined titles in all parts of the United States, to the extreme Southwest ; and we speak of a man who acquires title to land other than by an absolute grant as a "head righter." Mr. Ralph H. Faxon. May I ask the gentleman a question, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Faxon. I have been wondering how much importance Mr. Wright attached to the fact that their preliminary plan — what they understood to be necessary — was not approved by the Department on the ground that it was not essential; how much importance he attached to that action of the Department? Mr. Wright. We had intended to send representatives down to Washington to have our leases all approved, even if it were necessary to go ahead and have a bill through Congress approving these rights, because we got our rights from Congress. The only reason for the construction of the railroad was that both in the individual leases and in the national contracts we were compelled, for the proper development of this coal field, to build this railroad. That was the essential part of it, and that was what we expended our energies on the first year. We reported all that to Washington. That road we surveyed and graded and it is now in operation, but not under us. We were not heavy enough to carry that thing through at that date. That is, in the main, the situation as we find it, and the proposi- tions have been constructed with due care. We had a report from the Indian agent, Mr. Wright, at Muskogee, that our leases were valid when taken and that no leases adverse to ours had been acquired at all. The Chairman. I was going to ask you whether any adverse rights had been sought to be established. Mr. Wright. On two small tracts only, so that eliminating these two small tracts, which were taken under the Curtis Act and under our repeated protests at Washington, there are at present no adverse rights on the coal. The Chairman. What is the attitude of the Indians themselves toward your leases ? Mr. Wright. They are very favorable to them. They wish them to be improved and they are welcoming action. The Chairman. They are not seeking in any way to avoid them? Mr. Wright. No. Governor Green McCurtain stated that he was familiar with all the facts, and that he was satisfied that we owned those coal rights and would be pleased to have the restrictions taken off and to have us permitted to develop the property, because he was satisfied it would be a good thing for the nations to have that development and to have the royalties begin coming in. The Chairman. Let me ask you one other question, a question on which the Government places a good deal of importance ; that is 8 ' FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. this: In case your leases were put in such shape that you ^ould begin operations there, are you prepared to go on and carry them forward? Mr. Wright. We would furnish a bond m any amount that may be required that construction would be begun on the development work, and that they would be pushed through to completion as rapidly as circumstances down there might permit. Th^e might be a question of lack of labor, or something of that kind, but there would be no question of lack of funds. In the shortest time in which development could be had we would be mmmg from 2,000 to 3,000 tons of coal a day. The Chairman. How long have these leases yet to run? Mr. Wright. The individual leases have about thirty-five years to run. Up to the time that these parties started upon this develop- ment plan for this railroad, that was the deadest portion of the entire territory. Nobody knew that there was coal there. And even to- day, as you will notice on this map, the Department does not consider a goodly portion of this land to be coal land. Our work shows that within proper distance for development there are two veins^ The Chairman. I will say, regarding these maps, I am informed that as to this segregation, as made by Mr. Taff, they are not consid- ered entirely accurate. Mr. Wright. In connection with our statement there will be sub- mitted to the committee two reports of experts as to this particular tract of ours, which will give the analysis of the coal, the depths at which the different strata lie and the continuance of the different veins of coal. The Chairman. That, I understand you, has been definitely ascer- tained with a diamond drill ? Mr. Wright. Yes. We had a diamond drill there, and made a number of borings, and all along the crop line we sank discovery shafts on the coal and opened up the coal which is now being brought out. The Chairman. And this particular tract of yours is, you say, 8 miles wide? Mr. Wright. Yes. Senator Long. Near where ? Mr. Wright. Its corner is near Coalgate. I will explain it in detail, by reference to the map. [Mr. Wright explained it accord- ingly by reference to the map and continued.] There was a sale of some segregation to the Coalgate Coal Company, and a small sale to W. C. Fordyce. The Chairman. I think that offer for sale applies generally to all this segregation — the whole segregation was offered for sale. Senator Long. Under authority of a law that is now repealed? The Chairman. Yes, and what few bids were received were not so large as that the Secretary could feel authorized to sell any of the lands. Mr. Wright. Borings and expert reports show that there is coal commercially available at reasonable expense to warrant all those lands being considered as coal lands. The white portion up there [indicating on the map] shows that the surface rights of a good por- tion have been leased. It was not sectionized at the time we leased FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 9 and consequently was not capable of any more definite description than we have. Mr. Hunt. We have a sectionized map that will show. Mr. Weight. Yes, and everything will be furnished to the com- mittee in concise form. Senator Long. How far is that from McAlester? Mr. Wright. McAlester is not on that map at all. Unless you go ■ to Coalgate, which is in the heart of the best development at the present time, you will not come very close to this field. The Chairman. Is there more development at Coalgate than at McAlester ? Mr. Wright. There is more development at McAlester, but indi- cations, according to our experts, are that Coalgate will be the center. The Chairman. How far is Coalgate from McAlester? Mr. Wright. My recollection is about 50 miles. The Chairman. "What road is it on? Mr. Wright. On the Frisco system — the Choctaw and Gulf. Senator Long. You say that Coalgate is more in the center of this coal field than McAlester is? The Chairman. Prospectively, he said. Mr Wright. Prospectively. That is, the outcropping and the easily mined coal near the surface is nearer to McAlester, but at Coalgate there is the underlying coal about 350 feet below the sur- face — just about right for commercial development. The Chairman. Is that good coking coal? Mr. Wright. The underlying coal will make a good coking coal, but I think will not come into competition with the other regions. I have a coal that is taken out from here [indicating] that will find ready sale in this southwestern country. The Chairman. There is a tremendous amount of coke used, and with the exception of a little produced in Colorado, nearly all the coke used at the smelters comes from Pennsylvania at very great cost. In our State we have a great area of coal, but have not been able to get it to make good coke for smelting purposes. Mr. Wright. This coal that is in what I call the underlying vein is reported to coke easily, but I do not think they will coke it because they can sell every ton of that coal all throughout the Southwest without doing anything to it but taking it out of the ground. The Chairman. Unless by treating it they could add considerably to theirprofits. What is the naarket price of coal at the mines ? Mr. Weight. I could get that from our figures at the office, but I could not tell you offhand. I have got that from some bankruptcy reports. The Chairman. Of course, the value of that whole coal field will depend largely on that proposition. Mr. Wright. The value of that coal field at a few cents a ton royalty would run into some hundreds of dollars an acre to the Nation. The development that we have done down there tends to show that at the ordinary royalty that ground is worth from $300 to 1400 an acre. You will hardly coal enough from it — merchantable coal— to make the royalty come to $400 an acre on an average. Mr. Wright. It is an inordinately rich coal field. S. Rep; 5013, 59-2, pt 1 2 10 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. But you must figure that your coal veins down there will not go over 4 feet in thickness. That is to say., any oi those that I have read about. The committee adjourned untU to-morrow, Monday, mormng at 10.30 a. m. Kansas City, Mo., Monday, November 12, 1906. • The committee met at the Hotel Baltimore at 10.30 a. m. Present: Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming ( chairman). Long, and ielier. STATEMENT OF MR. GEK.SON B. SILVERMAN. The Chaieman. Please state your residence and occupation. Mr. Silverman. I am an attorney at law, residing and practicmg in Kansas City, Mo. -it I have here a prepared typewritten statement which I will read to the committee, with your permission. This statenaent will give a very succinct view of the issue which we desire to submit to the com- mittee. It is very short, and I can not add anything substantial to it. Everything will be found in the statement and the documents annexed to it. Mr. Silverman proceeded to read the statement, as follows : Kansas City, Mo., November 10, 1906. To the Honorable United States Committee on Indian Affairs (sitting at Kansas City, Mo.). Gentlemen: The undersigned, your petitioner, Newton B. Childs, now a resident and citizen of Kansas City, Jackson County, Mo., begs leave to inform your honorable committee that in the year 1892 he and his then associate. Dr. J. M. Ford, of Denison, Tex., entered into and were bound by two coal leases from parties having then lawful right to grant same, covering a coal field of 15 miles by 8 miles in area, in the Lehigh- Coalgate district, in Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Ind. T. These leases were executed in approved form and duly recorded in the proper and appointed official records. True copies of these leases are hereto attached, marked "Exhibits L and N," respectively. These leases, at the time of their execution, were recognized by the Interior Department of the United States Government as lawful and valid leases, and were executed in strict accordance with the laws and constitution of the Choctaw Nation as then approved by Congress. Immediately following the execution and recording of these two coal leases there was executed in the same year, 1892, in compliance with the laws of the Choctaw Nation and the act of Congress relating thereto, what was called a national contract between E. N. Wright, the then national agent of the Choctaw Nation, and D. 0. Fisher, the then national agent of the Chickasaw Nation, parties of the first part, and J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs, parties of the second part. This national contract was filed for record with the said E. N. Wright, the said national agent, and by him turned over to the lawful authorities of the Choctaw Nation at its seat of government, Tuskahoma, Choctaw Nation, Ind. T., where it now remains a matter of governmental record. A true copy of this national contract is hereto attached and marked "Exhibit M." The conditions of the individual Indian leases and of the national contract were fully performed and complied with by the said lessees. There is hereto attached a statement, marked "Exhibit S,'' showing in part only the expenditure of moneys by the lessees in carrying out the terms of the said leases. There is also hereto attached, marked "Exhibit Q," a copy of an official letter from B. V. Belt, Acting Commissioner, dated September 15, 1892, which stated that these leases were submitted to the Department and declares such leases good and valid, without the approval of the Interior TDepartment. Following this, and showing the .attitude of the Department, is hereto attached, marked "Exhibit R," copy of an official letter, dated Washington, D. C, Januai-y 7, 1904 (this was six years after the passage of the Curtis Act), from A. C. Tonner, Com- missioner, in which he gave it as his opinion that the Ford-Childs leases were void unless covered by a national contract signed by the respective national agents. That FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 11 such a national contract did exist has been heretofore stated. Commissioner Tonner acted on a mistake of fact. We also herewith attach as Exhibit V that part of the Curtis Act under which it has been, and is attempted through the interference of the Interior Department for the past eight years, to prevent these lessees from carrying out the terms of their leases and operating the coal fields thereby and therein leased to them. We have appended as Exhibit T, copies of the provisions of the then established law with reference to the affairs of the Indians in its application to .coal leases previous to the enactment of the Curtis Act. There are also appended as Exhibits O and P, expert reports of the work done in the development and opening of these coal fields bjr these lessees. A shaft was sent down to the coal on each claim located on the eastern crop line, as shown on the map attached to the exhibits, and work done preliminary to mining in earnest. No royalty was paid to the nations because coal was not mined in commercial quantities, but to the individual Indian lessors money to the amount of several thou- sand dollars was advanced to be credited as royalties when the actual commercial mining of coal was begun. In addition to these shafts upon the crop lines, a diamond drill was used on a number of claims, by which means the fact of the existence of coal over the entire field was established, and the thickness and location of the vein deter- mined, made a matter of record, and the quality of the coal ascertained by analysis. On the individual head rights, or Indian locations, money was advanced by the lessees to the Indian locators or head righters, to build such an individual house or shack at their discovery shafts as their laws required. That portion of the Denison and Northern Railway directly north of Denison on the Red River was surveyed to Coalgate, a branch line surveyed from Coalgate west and south to Dougherty, on the Santa Fe Railway, the total mileage surveyed being 150 miles, and the maps of the survey and alignment were filed in Washington and approved by the Secretary of the Interior. The amount of money spent by the lessees on railway, as a compliance with the requirements of their contracts with the Indians of the nations, was over §80,000. In this connection, we show as Exhibit W, a copy of an affidavit by J. D. Davis, one of the interested lessors, that he had person- ally ascertained that the work called for in the leases was being actively pushed in good faith. At this stage of affairs the Interior Department proceeded under an erroneous con- struction of the Curtis Act to sectionize the land covered by these- leases, sequester a portion only as coal lands, and to offer for sale the surface rights on part of the land, and the rights to mine coal on the sequestered portions, and to sell some small portions of the lands covered by these leases, over the repeated protests of these lessees, entail- ing upon them by such action a multiplicity of costly and unnecessary litigation. Since such interference with their rights, repeated efforts on the part of these lessees to have their vested rights recognized by the Interior Department m such a manner as to permit them to safely invest their capital in" the necessary permanent and costly physical improvements required to enable them to take out the coal under the terms of their leases have, up to this date, utterly failed. The situation of these lessees is unique in the affairs of the Indian Territory, different in every respect from that of any other lease status which has heretofore arisen, or which now presents itself, or which can hereafter arise, and therefore any precedent laid down by the Interior Department can not, in justice or in law, apply to these lessees. The lessees are prepared to at once, upon recognition of their rights, take such steps and expend such sums of money as will bring about a full development of this important factor in the growth and welfare of the new State and to give satisfactory security for such action and expenditure. Wherefore, these lessees respectfully ask that this honorable committee, having investigated the situation, may report that the rights of these lessees under these leases were acquired in full compliance with the laws existing at the time of the enter- ing into the said contracts, and they have not been in any wise abrogated by subse- quent legislation, and that the committee recommend that such action be taken by the Executive Department of the United States Government as shall result in the cessation of the attempts to prevent these lessees from lawfully doing, in the operation of their coal leases, that which is required for their full performance, and would respect- fully ask that this honorable committee further take such action and do all such legally necessary things for the relief of these lessees as in pursuance of the powers vested in them they have a right to do. Respectfully submitted. Newton B. Childs, Lessee. Edward C. Weight, Gerson B. Silverman, Counsel for Newton B. Childs. 12 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Teller. Have you got Mr. Belt's letter there? Mr. Silverman. Yes, sir. . Senator Teller. Suppose you read that. It will be short. Mr. Silverman (readmg) : Depaetment of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, September 15, 1892. Jambs F. Hadley, Esq., Kansas City, Mo. Sir: I am in receipt, by Department reference, of your communication of September 2, 1892, addressed to the Secretary of the Interior, in which you state that you have recently become interested in some coal leases in the Choctaw Nation, Indian .lerri- tory, and that you have been told that it is necessary to the validity of such leases that they should be filed in the Department of the Interior and approved by the Secretary thereof; that, on the other hand, you have been told that the Attorney-General m 1886 or 1887 rendered a lengthy opinion to the effect that the Interior Department had nothing whatever to do with matters relating to patented Indian lands. You ask to be furnished with a copy of said opinion of the Attorney-General and to be advised of the ruling of the Department relative to such leases. . . In compliance with your request I transmit yoji herewith a copy of the opinion of the Attorney-General of July 21, 1885, relative to whether there is any law empow- ering the Interior Department to authorize Indians to enter into contracts with any parties for the lease of Indian lands for grazing purposes; and also whether the Presi- dent or the Interior Department has any authority to make a lease for grazing purposes of any part of any Indian reservation, or whether the approval of the President or the Secretary of the Interior would render any such lease made by Indians with other parties lawful and valid. Since the rendering of said opinion by the Attorney-General Congress has passed an act repealing all laws having the effect to prevent the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Seminole nations, or either of them, from lawfully entering into leases or contracts for mining coal for a period not exceeding ten years. The law referred to is contained in section 6 of the act of March 1, 1889 (25 Stat. L., 783), entitled "An act to establish a United States court in the Indian Territory, and for other purposes," and is as follows: "* * * That alllaws having the effect to prevent the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, Chickasaw, and Seminole nations, or either of them, from lawfully entering into leases or contracts for mining coal for a period not exceeding ten years, are hereby repealed; and said court shall have jurisdiction over all- controversies arising out of said mining leases or contracts and of all questions of mining rights or invasions thereof where the amount involved exceeds the sum of one hundred dollars. ' ' Leases for the purpose of mining coal, entered into with the Choctaw Nation, in accordance with the laws of said nation (for a period not to exceed ten years), are not required to be approved by this office or the Interior Department in order to be valid. Very respectfully, B. V. Belt, Acting Commissioner. (McPherson.) The Chairman. Wliat was the term of the lease of Mr. Childs? Mr. Silverman. Fifty years. The Chairman. The reference in his letter to leases that do not require the approval of the Department is to leases" that were not to exceed ten years? Mr. Silverman. His statement is that leases that are not to go beyond ten years need not have the approval of the Department. Senator Teller. It seems to me that that is not the law. Read that over. Mr. Silverman. It is a Uttle confusing if you do not study it very closely. The naked law extract is this : That all laws having the effect to prevent the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, Chickasaw and Seminole nations, or either of them, from lawfully entering into leases' or contracts for mining coal for a period not exceeding ten years are hereby repealed. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 13 _As I understand it, at the time tliis act was passed the law pro- hibited the Indians from leasing their lands for a period of more than ten years. Senator Teller. Without the approval of the Secretary? Mr. Silverman. Without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, yes. There was a prohibitive law to that effect, and this was intended to repeal that. The Chairman. Was there any law at that time preventing leases from extending for more than ten years ? Mr. Silverman. No, sir; there was just that naked statute. Senator Teller. And that is repealed? Mr. Silverman. Yes; and that left the matter as it would be in the case of any private individual in a State. That was our construction of the matter. According to ovir position, the matter is a very simple one. We have here a map showing the old Indian way of locating a mine. Under the Choctaw law an Indian could dig a hole in the ground, and if he found coal there he had the right under their laws to own the coal rights of all the coal fields within a radius of a mile all around that hole. A large number of those claims were located in that way by those original Indians, and Ihey in tiu-n, in 1892, made these two leases to Mr. Childs and his then partner Doctor Ford, and the property was sm^eyed and the leases were recorded at Atoka, in the Choctaw Nation, and then a national contract, as provided by law, was made by the then national agents in 1892 of the Choctaw Nation. That national contract is what may be termed a national license from the fovemment of the Choctaw Nation, permitting those things to be one. These lessees then went to work and expended something like $80,000 of their own money in building a railroad, which railroad was provided for in the original leases, and they sank shafts, etc., in the prosecution of those leases. Senator Teller. Who owned the railroad? Mr. Silverman (to Mr. Childs). Who owned the railroad, Mr. Childs? Mr. Childs. It was never finished. Senator Teller. Who started it ? Mr. Childs. Myself and Dr. Ford. Mr. Silverman. Under what name? Mr. Childs. Under the name of the Denison and Northern Rail- road. Senator Teller. You put up the money to build it ? Mr. Childs. Everything. Senator Teller. Why did you not complete it ? Mr. Childs. Owing to the death of Senator Stanford. Senator Long. Who is in possession of this property now? Mr. Silverman. There is one allottee only who is m possession of part of it. Senator Long. Part of it has been segregated as coal land since then? Mr. Silverman. No, sir. Senator Long. No part has been segregated ? The Chairman. I think it is said in the statement submitted that it has been segregated. 14 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Long. After the segregation, has some one else been given a lease covering part of this property? Mr. Silverman. Yes. , n j. o Senator Long. And approved by the Secretary^ Mr. Silvekman. Yes; 960 acres in one allotment, and a small por- tion of 960 acres. Senator Long. Under subsequent laws?. Mr. Silverman. Yes; imder subsequent laws. , j- j- Senator Long. Have you ever attempted to have the courts adjudi- cate your rights to this property? Has this matter ever been m any court ? Mr. Silverman. Not on the part of these lessees. Senator Long. "Why not ? i- j j • Mr. Silverman. Because it involved a large area of ground, and it would have been useless for us to attempt that. The litigation would have been a long litigation, and the courts down there, as I understand, had a case similar to this, which, however, was not appealed to the United States court. The judge in that case followed out the ideas laid down in the Curtis Act — ^that all these leases were absolutely null and void. Senator Long. That is, prior to the Curtis Act ? Mr. Silverman. Yes; he held that everything prior to the Curtis Act was absolutely null and void. Senator Long. The Curtis Act provides that all leases prior were absolutely null and void. Mr. Silverman. The Curtis Act was passed in June Senator Long. 1898. Mr. Silverman. Yes. One paragraph of that act reads as follows: All agreements heretofore made by any person or corporation with any member or members of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations the object of which was to obtain such member or members' permission to operate coal or asphalt are hereby declared void. — absolutely wiping these people out. Senator Teller. "What was the date of the Curtis Act ? Mr. Silverman. June 28, 1898. Senator Long. "When were your improvements made there? Mr. Silverman. Eight at that time. Senator Long. You had been operating up to that time? Mr.. Silverman. Yes. Senator Long. You have done nothing since that time? Mr. Silverman. Only corresponding with "Washington and receiv- ing the encouragement from "Washington to stay off that land ! Senator Long. You have been engaged for eight years in that cor- respondence ? Mr. Silverman. Yes. Senator Long. "Which is not yet finished ? Mr. Silverman. Not yet finished. Senator Long. "What do you want this committee to do ? Mr. Silverman. To recommend that the Executive part of this Government recognize the rights of these lessees. Senator Long. Do you want legislation? Mr. Silverman. I do not think it is necessary. I do not think it is necessary to do as they do in the Choctaw Nation, pass a law that Mary Brown is the lawful heir of John Brown. We want this com- mittee to recommend 3PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 15 Senator Long. To whom? Mr. Silverman. To the United States Senate — that the executive department of the Government, especially the Interior Department, the Indian OflB.ce, let us alone, so that we can go ahead and develop that territory. We do not want to be stopped in it. Senator Teller. Do you think they would stop you ? Mr. Silverman. Oh, yes. The Chairman. In your statement there is an intimation that the Acting Commissioner, or the Commissioner, of Indian Affairs at one time wrote that you had no rights there, in effect, because you had no national contract. Mr. Silverman. I will come to that. The Chairman. You may explain where your national contract was at that time, and how the Indian Ofl&ce failed to acknowledge that the contract was in existence. Senator Teller. That is, where Tonner passed on it. Mr. Silverman. This is a letter we received from Washington: Department op the Interior, Oppicb op Indian Affairs, Washington, January 7, 1904. The Secretary op the Interior. Sir: There is inclosed herewith a report from Inspector Wright dated December 11, 1903, returning a communication from Edward C. Wright, of Kansas City, Missouri, That is Mr. Edward C. Wright here, who is associated with us in this matter. i attorney representing J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs, protesting against any further coal leases being made to parties covering lands claimed by them in the Choctaw Nation. The inspector says that Ford and Childs have not entered into any lease with the mining trustees By that he means that the Curtis Act did away with these national agents of the Indians, and in their stead the Curtis Act provided for mining trustees for each Nation. There is a mining trustee now for the Choctaw Nation and another for the Chickasaw Nation. That the records of his office do not show that they ever made application for a lease in accordance with the regulations That is, that they did not come in under the Curtis Act ; they had their rights prior to that time. that it appears that they claim to have certain leases made in 1892, with individual citizens, and he invites attention to the provisions of the original agreement with the Choctaws and Chickasaws concerning leases. That is, he says that Mr. Wright, the inspector down there, invited attention to the original agreement between the Choctaws and Chick- asaws concerning leases. Then Mr. Tonner's letter goes on: The provisions of the agreement referred to by the inspector are familiar to the Department. He says that under these provisions the individual leases claimed by Ford and Childs are void unless the land was covered by a national contract signed by the agents of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes, and the mines were being operated in good faith on April 23, 1897, which would give the lessees the right to have the con- tract renewed at its expiration, subject to the provisions of the act. He says that as Ford and Childs do not appear to have made application for a lease, their claim is with- out merit, and recommends that Mr. Wright be advised in accordance with the above, and that his attention be called to the provisions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw supple- mental agreement concerning the segregation of coal and asphalt lands, and to section 61 of the supplemental agreement, which declares that no lease of any coal or asphalt lands "shall be made after the final ratification of this agreement to the contrary notwithstanding. ' ' 16 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ._ The inspector inclosed with Ms re - sketc^ whi.h ^^o.^^^g'e^^ ,^^^^^1 io t.lct{7l^Ztf^t'uTr:it^^^^^ commuB^ication, aa the same is not described according to the Government survey Well, at that time there was no Government sm-vey. As it does not appear that Ford and Childs applied for a lease for coal lands in the Choctaw Nation it^i^'ecommended that their attorney, Mr. Wright, be advised as indiiated by the inspector. Tonneh, Very respectfully, Commissioner. The Chairman. This national ratification of this lease, whatever you may call it- Mr. Silverman. National contract. The Chairman. National contract— where was that kept, and was there any provision of law by which copies of it should be tiled with the Department at Washington, whereby the Department would have knowledge of it ? i • mi. Mr. Silverman. The status of the matter is simply this: That up to 1898, the time of the passage of the Curtis Act, these leesses were m. law the rightful lessees, and had the right to operate the coal fields there. That was the status of the matter. Now comes along the Curtis Act, saying that all these proceedings — everything you have — are null and void. The Department applies that to us, but we say that it does not apply. Senator Long. How can you say that it does not apply ? Mr. Silverman. As lawyers, we say to you that our right is a vested right, and the act can not apply. If that could be so the found- ations of the Government would fail. Senator Long. The Curtis Act does not make any exceptions. Why do you not go into court and have your rights adjusted? Mr. Silverman. I will let Mr. Wright answer that question. Mr. E. C. Wright. Anything which we might raise in that way would affect but a very small portion of claims which we would make. Under that we should be allowed to contest only a small portion of the outcroppings of the coal — in all less than one-twentieth of what we claim to be coal lands. The Department of the Interior say that the greater part of the ground covered by our leases is not coal land and can not be taken under the provisions of the Curtis Act in any way. Senator Long. It has been allotted to the Indians ? Mr. Wright. The surface rights. But there are two small portions which overlap our rights. If we contest, we must contest matters that our leases do not and never did cover; and we should have to establish, as matter of fact, that they were taking out coal under the Curtis Act within the limits of our survey. It would require a long "reference" to a master to get at the facts and confine the matter within the limits of the Congressional grant. At that time they were offering openly for sale, as appears from "Circular No. 5," issued from the Department of the Interior, a copy of which the com- mittee have with them, merely the outcroppings of the coal along the southern crop line of the land claimed by us. Had we gone into court then it would have necessitated our contesting our claims piecemeal and in each separate allotment, whereas, had the Depart- ment at any time recognized our rights, we stated that we stood ready to yield to adverse claimants the rights which they could law- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 17 fuUj'^ claim under the decision, which we considered an erroneous decision of the Interior Department. Senator Long. The Interior Department construed the Curtis Act to wipe out any rights you had there ? Mr. Wright. Yes. Senator Long. What do you want us to do ? Mr. Wright. We simply want a report from this committee to the proper department of the Government or the source to which it makes its report Senator Long. We report to the Senate. Mr. Wright (continuing). That the rights were acquired to the knowledge of the Department at a time when there were no restric- tions in the acquisition of such rights, and had been recognized by the Department up to the time of the passage of the Curtis Act, and that the Department had no right to divest us without a hearmg. Senator Long. You want us to make such a recommendation? Mr. Wright. And that it reconunend Senator Long. The Senate does not "recommend." Do you not want l^islation? Mr. Wright. I do not think that there is any legislation necessary. We only want the Senate to act in such a way as that the Interior Department will stop interfering with us. Senator Long. That is to act by legislation. Mr. Wright. Then the only thing would be to approve the leases as being valid leases. Senator Long. To amend that part of the Curtis Act which declares all leases void, to amend that by declaring your leases valid ; is that it ? Mr. Wright. Yes, and that we come within the section which says that "all coal rights," etc., be sold subject to existing leases. Our lease is "an existing lease." This clause is taken out from the Curtis Act by itself, and was made the basis of action by the Interior Depart- ment subject to existing leases, of which we claim ours is one. Senator Teller. Does your trouble arise from the statement in the act that all leases were void? Mr. Wright. Yes. At that time we were going ahead to bring this property to a high degree of development. Senator Long. And you never applied under the Curtis Act for the approval of your lease ? Mr. Wright. No, sir. When an application was made on behalf of those parties in the Indian Territory to Agent Wright he stated that it would have to be applied for in tracts of 960 acres according to Government surveys. Senator Long. You had a much larger claim than that ? Mr. Wright. Yes, and our claim was prior to the sectionizing of the land, and we would have been deprived of the right to apply for the greater portion of our land, for the reason that the Department refused to recognize nineteen-twentieths of our land as coal land. Senator Long. There were a number of leases made prior to the Curtis Act, and approved by Congress, were there not? Mr. Wright. There was one. Senator Long. The Choctaw lease was approved by Congress. That was prior to the Curtis Act? Mr. Wright. Yes. 18 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. The Curtis Act did not interfere with that? Mr. Wright. No. , . , j i j v,r „„+ ^t Senator Long. And yours, not havmg been declared by act of Congress, was not approved? TV/T-p ^^T? T p TTT No . Mr Childs When the application was made for a charter for the Choctaw and Gulf, they at the same time had leases from the individual Indians, owners of the property at and near Hartshorne and South McAlester, for a large quantity of coal lands, ihey asked Congress for a charter to build the road and to approve their leases, so that they could put them under mortgage for the raising of the money to finance the road. Congress did it, and authorized a mortgage for thirty years. Mr. Weight. As we have stated in our application to the com- mittee, our leases are the only leases in the Indian Territory to-day that stand in this position, and since the passage of the Curtis Act no such situation could arise. So far as we have been able to learn, from a careful search of the records in the Indian Territory and in Washington, our leases stand alone in their situation of having been acquired prior to the Curtis Act, and reported to the Department, and reported back from the Department to us as needing no further action upon the part of the lessees to make them valid. Senator Long. That was in 1892? Mr. Weight. Yes. Senator Long. But in 1898 Congress declared all leases void, without exception. Mr. Wright. Except those that had been approved by Congress; and we had asked for the passage of no bill through Congress approv- ing these leases. Senator Long. All you want is our good offices with the Interior Department ? Mr. Weight. Yes; to allow us to get in there in proper shape and test our rights. Part of this land has not been allotted. Senator Long. Suppose we have no influence with the Interior Department ? Mr. Wright. Even so, your good offices ■\*'ould still be appreciated, and we would still be in the position of having our claim against the United States and the Indian nations, instead of against the allottees. But we do not feel strong enough to take a position against the LTnited States Government, especially if we are not to have our day in court. Mr. Silverman. The committee would perhaps like to know what the Senate could do, if anything, to come to our i'elief. They could pass an act which should declare that leases were in existence at the time of the passage of the Curtis Act — leases to Ford and Childs — ^which leases were, at their inception, valid, and should have been excepted from the provisions of the Curtis Act; and that from and after the passage of the act in which this is declared the Interior Department shall not interfere with the lessees or their assigns in the proper development of their coal leases, but leave all parties interested m the lands to their action in court without interference by the Executive Department of the Government. Senator Long. Do you mean a Senate resolution or an act of Congress ? Mr. Silverman. An act of Congress would of course bring us within the exception. I-IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 19 Senator Long. I thought you said all were declared void except such as had been approved by Congress ? Mr. Weight. The act of June 25, 1898, provides as follows: " Section 29. All agreements heretofore made by any person or corporation with any neniber or members of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations, the object of which was to obtain such member's or members' permission to operate coal or asphalt, are hereby declared void : Provided, That nothing herein contained shall impair the rights of any holder or owner of a leasehold interest in any oil, coal rights, asphalt, or mineral, which have been assented to by act of Congress." Senator Long. Yes. Mr. Weight. "But," continues the act, "all such interests shall continue unimpaired hereby." Senator Tellee (to Mr. Child s). You started a railroad, Mr. Childs. What became of it in the end ? Mr. Childs. It had to be abandoned and let go. The United States court, however, at Ardmore, after the death of a gentleman that was a friend of mine Senator Teller. You mean Mr. Leland Stanford? Mr. Childs. Yes. Senator Tellee. He was furnishing you the money? Mr. Childs. Yes. He started to loan me a million dollars. After we had gone so far the contractors we had on the road said: "Instead of giving us money give us bonds on the road; we will be glad to take them." They started under that idea. The panic came on at that time and they fell down. The court at Ardmore, Judge Kilgore, after they had started to build the road, threw the road into the hands of a receiver. Here [producing a paper] is one of the receiver's certificates that was issued at the time. Senator Tellee. Did he issue a lot of those ? Mr. Childs. Somewhere between seventy and ninety thousand. Senator Teller. Who holds those ? Mr. Childs. They are scattered all over the country. We appealed from the validity of those and took the case to the court of appeals in St. Louis finally, and the court declared all the receiver's cer- tificates invalid. While that litigation was going on, the Choctaw, Oklahoma and Gulf, now known as the Frisco Road, built a road directly over the line of this road to Ardmore on the Santa Fe, giving us an entirely independent outlet for our coal. Senator Teller. So that you did not need any other ? Mr. Childs. We did not need any other. Senator Teller. So that there is a line now over which the coal can be shipped? Mr. Childs. There are three lines now; three outlets for the coal. The Chaieman. Is there any mining done under the leases that were covered by the Curtis Act ? Mr. Childs. There is by pne company. The Chaieman. Is that one that was leased under the segregation clause of the Curtis Act? Mr. Childs. Yes. The Chairman. What is their production, probably? Mr. Childs. That I could not tell you. Mr. Silverman might be able to say something about that, as he was on the ground one day last week. The Chairman (to Mr. Silverman). Are they producing very much coal, Mr. Silverman? 20 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Silverman. Yes, they are getting out a lot of coal. Senator Long. And that is on the property covered by your lease? • Mr. Silverman. One part of it. Senator Teller. Part of it is outside? Mr. Silverman. Yes. . Senator Teller. A part of it would not be m controversy? Mr. Silverman. Oh, no. If we could get our rights from Congress we could settle with that company. ,.. . . • -rr n m , Mr Wright. I have secured from the Mississippi Valley Irust Company a copy of a report made by Arthur Wmslow, cml engmeer and geologist on the Ford-Childs holdings, in which he makes an engineering and geological report showing the strata and the coal basins, and while it is not strictly ^ , , t, . Senator Teller. Your trouble did not grow out of the tact that they disputed that it was coal land, but that the act had destroyed your lease ? • , • i Mr. Wright. Yes. But I thought a copy of this report might aid you to some extent. (The report of Mr. Arthur Winslow, mining engineer and geologist, is appended hereto, marked "Childs's Exhibit Y.") There has been no attempt to argue or place before the committee any propositions of law. We have extensive briefs, which could be condensed, and the essentials of law which have always been main- tained by the courts in dealings with the Indians could be presented. I have assumed that there would be no fine-spun questions of law before the committee, and we have confined ourselves to questions of fact. Mr. Silverman. You will find a brief in here on the law as applied to the Indian nations. (See Childs's Exhibit T, below.) Senator Teller. What particular feature of the law? Mr. Silverman. This particular feature, running back to 1830. Senator Teller. It seems to me there is a question here that does not have any relation to Indian law. Can Congress take a\vay, even by a law, a man's right that was fixed ? If a contract is a legal con- tract at the time when made, is it not a contract, whether with a white man or an Indian? The primary question therefore seems to me to be. Can the Curtis Act take away a prior right of lessees ? Mr. Silverman. You will probably remember that in 1895 a contro- versy arose. The Secretary of the Interior in a letter to the President pro tempore of the Senate, dated January 3, 1885, in speaking upon the subject of the right of the Cherokee Nation to lease its lands, said: The rights reserved to the United States are clearly expressed in the several treaties, and the right of the United States to control the Cherokee property and prevent the nation from having the full and absolute control of the products of these lands is not even suggested. * * * The Department has not considered it the duty of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior to interfere with the affairs of the Cherokee Nation except in cases especially provided for by treaty with that nation. * * * The Cherokees have a fee simple title to their lands and they do not recogni'/.e the right of the Department to interfere in the management of their affairs with reference thereto. You will observe that the opening of that paragraph states that " the rights reserved to the United States are clearly expressed in the several treaties and the right of the United States to control the Cherokee property and prevent the nation from having the full and FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 21 absolute control of the products of these lands is not even suggested." That also applied to the Choctaws. Senator Teller. They undoubtedly had a lease unless there was some Congressional law prohibiting a lease, and you say there was none. Mr. Sllverman. Up to 1898 there was absolutely no law whatever prohibiting Indians from making any lease such as ours. Senator Long. Arter 1898 there could not be any made? Mr. Silverman. No. Senator Long. You want us to suggest to the Department of the Interior that they have done wrong? Mr. Silverman. What we would like and what we ask is perhaps covered by the closing words of our submitted statement, which closing words I will here repeat: and would respectfully ask that this honorable committee further take such action and do all such legally necessary things for the relief of these lessees as in pursuance of the powers vested in them they have a right to do. Senator Long. But what can we, as a committee, do ? Senator Teller. What we would say would have no effect with the Department. Senator Long. And, short of an act of Congi'ess, what would be of any benefit to you ? You claim that your lease should not have been declared void, as you had a valid existing claim at that time; is that it? The Chairman. At the time the Curtis Act was passed they claim that they ought to have been included in the exception. Senator Long. Yes. The Chairman. Now they ask that Congress include them in that exception, nunc pro tunc. Senator Teller. My opinion is that if those people had a vested right Congress could not take it away from them. Senator Long. But that question, whether they had a vested right, would be one for the courts. Senator Teller. Well, I think their place is in court, and I think that if I were a lawyer in the case I should go into court. Senator Long. That would unquestionably raise the validity of that part of the Curtis Act. Senator Teller. If I were Secretary of the Interior I would treat the Curtis Act, so far as that is concerned, as not applying to the case. Mr. Hunt. If we were Eockefellers perhaps we might go into the courts, as the Senators recommend. But it is a difficult matter to butt against the United States Government, represented by the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Chester Howe. Pardon me for a suggestion in the matter, but I think the question has been decided, the question of the appli- cation of the Curtis Act to leases similar to this. The Chairman. Decided in what court ? Mr. Howe. Decided by Judge Clayton, in the case of Engsley v. Ainsworth. Senator Teller. What did he hold? Mr. Howe. He held that Congress had plenary power and authority, and that they could set aside the action of the Indian nation. The Chairman. Was that case appealed ? 22 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Howe. It never went up, I understand. Senator Teller. We have had cases similar to that, but i do not believe that that power or authority exists. i j „_ j Senator Long. There is no question that Congress could amend the act and make an exception, but short of that we do not see any relief that we or Congress could grant. Mr Silverman. That would be sufficient. [Laughter.] Senator Long. Certainly, that would be sufficient. _ Mr Wright If it were considered to come withm the province of the committee, we would be very pleased to prepare and forward a suggestion for such an amendment. We have hesitated to ask tor favors or to ask for too much. We should be very pleased to submit by mail to the committee, through their secretary, a suggestion of that kind, which has been prepared, but not prepared for the action of this committee— one that was prepared some time ago. We hesitated then, to ask for a declaration of our rights. If the com- mittee will permit, we will prepare and submit by mail such an amendment as will be satisfactory to all concerned, in our opinion. The Chairman. There would be no impropriety in submitting the matter. Senator Long. My question to you was not in reference to the propriety or legality of your claim, but what we could do in the matter. We are not in the habit, as a committee or as a Senate, of submitting suggestions to the Interior Department. Senator Teller. And we could not say that a ruling of the Depart- ment was not correct. In one case that I recall we could not get relief from the Department, and we went to work and passed a law setting aside the ruling. Mr. Wright. We shall submit such a paper as I suggested, em- bodying a provision of law to cover the case. The document is annexed hereto, marked "Childs's Exhibit X." STATEMENT OF MB. MELVEN CORNISH. Kansas City, Mo., November 12, 1906. The Chairman. Do I understand from you, Mr. Cornish, that the Choctaws and Chickasaws are opposing the propositions of these gen- tlemen ? (Referring to Messrs. Wright and Silverman, appearing for the Ford-Childs claim.) Mr. Cornish. They do not oppose it in so far as these lands have been leased under the Curtis Act. It would be their duty to defend in so far as it concerns outside leases. I think that in a very brief time I could make clear to the committee the matter involved in this case. The Chairman. You may proceed. Mr. Cornish. I will state first to the committee that we had no idea that this matter affecting the rights of the Choctaws and Chicka- saws would be presented, and I am unprepared to enter at length into it because it is entirely new. But after giving many of the active years of my life to the matters that apply to these particular people I shall ask the committee to permit me to examine in detail the paper which has been filed, and to file such other papers as mav be necessary. What I say in answer will be in writing, and a copy will be filed with the gentlemen on the other side. I am aware that you gentlemen are perfectly familiar with the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 23 history and trend of legislation beginning with the Curtis Act in 1898, and going on to the supplemental legislation of 1902, and the legisla- tion later than that. It is well known that the foundation of the Government's action in the Indian Territory with reference to coal and asphalt, to matters of citizenship, to matters affecting railroads, allotments, etc., rests on the Curtis Act. That act became necessary becaxise it was realized by everybody that the Indians were incompe- tent to manage their own affairs. Up to that time the matters of leasing coal and asphalt lands had been managed by the Indians themselves. Railroads had been attempted to be built there and town sites to be laid out. The whole matter was in a glorious mix up. The Government of the United States realized that the Indians were unable to manage their own affairs for two reasons: First, because they had no experience in such management, and, secondly, because many of them were corrupt. The Government first sent out a commission known as the Dawes Commission, in 1893. That commission existed during the years from 1893 up to 1897. No legislation of any importance was effected during that time. The thing that was demonstrated to the entire satisfaction of everybody, from the President down, was that the Indians were incompetent to manage their own affair?. The terrible things that have been done to the Indians have been done because of their own corruption and incompetence. It was then that it was thought the power should be taken from the hands of the Dawes Commission, and so the Atoka act was passed, and on that the Government action has been based ever since. So far as concerns this matter now before this committee, it is unnecessary to refer to anything but that part of the act relating to coal and asphalt. As a first proposition, as a realization by the Government that the Indians were unable to manage their own affairs, it was provided absolutely, by legislative act, without qualification, that all leases existing at that time are absolutely null and void — the Government thus exercising superintendence over its wards — a government exer- cised sometimes wisely and socaetimes not perhaps so wisely. That wiped out those agreements that were supposed to be outstanding. It rehabilitated certain of those which in the wisdom of Congress seemed to possess merit, to wit, those that had received the approval of Congress. Senator Long. By the exception? Mr. Cornish. Yes. Senator Teller. They were simply let alone? Mr. Cornish. Yes; they were let alone. Now, it provided as to another class — the persons in possession of national contracts. By express provisions they were given the right to have those national contracts carried into leases under the provisions of the Atoka act. Senator Long. That was in the Curtis Act ? Mr. Cornish. They were given that power if they had such a national contract as was contemplated by law; and that was a mat- ter to be determined by the Interior Department.^ Another class was made possible of rehabilitation and resuscitation, to wit, the leases that were existing at that time by national contracts. Colonel Busby is in possession of leases that were in existence at that time, and it became his duty to file those. 24 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman (to Mr. Silverman). I understand, Mr. Silverman, that these contracts of yours, or these leases under which the con- tracts were given, have still some thirty years to run. Mr. Silverman. Let me explain that, Mr. Chairman. The original leases with the Indians upon which the law would base these people's rights, just, as they would those of white citizens of the States, those were for fifty years. At that time the law required that these lessees should get permission from the authorities of the Choctaw Nation, to wit, a national agent down there, who, as I understand it, repre- sented both the Choctaw and the Chickasaw nations. Mr. Cornish. There was one for each ? Mr. Silverman. The term of that national contract was for six years, and it said that it may be renewed for another six years, and renewed again for another six years, making eighteen years. Now, the Curtis Act wiped out the national agents. Mr. Cornish. That is not correct. It did not wipe them out. Mr. Silverman. Wait a moment. Senator Long. This was never renewed? Mr. Silverman. It could not be. Senator Long. But it was not renewed ? Mr. Silverman. It was, for six years, and was to be renewed by these national agents. Senator Long. But it was never renewed, you say? Mr. Silverman. It could not be. Senator Long. But, as a matter of fact, it was not? Mr. Silverman. No. The Chairman. Did the Curtis Act substitute anybody or any official for this national agent ? Mr. Silverman. It said that the national contracts then existing should be carried forward into new leases. Mr. Cornish. The Curtis Act says : All contracts made by the national agents of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations for operating coal and asphalt with any person or corporation which were on April 23, 1897, being operated in good faith are hereby ratified and confirmed, and the lessee shall have the right to renew the same when they expire, subject to all the provisions of this act. Senator Teller. That is a qualification of the statement that all leases were void. Mr. Cornish. If these gentlemen possess rights such as they now claim, those rights could have been secured if they had presented them to the right authority. Now, if it had been found by the Sec- retary of the Interior that they were in possession of such rights, that national contract could have been carried forward into a thirty- year lease. Senator Teller. Could they have had a valid lease without having a valid contract? Mr. Cornish. No, su-; they could not. The only outstanding obligations that the tribes were held to were those that were repre- sented by national contracts. Senator Long. Under the Choctaw law that could not have been a valid lease. Mr. Cornish. There could be a valid contract only when approved by the national agent. Senator Teller. Do you know anything of their national contracts « FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 25 Mr. Cornish. No, sir; I never heard of this particular matter before. It could hardly be said that they would be entitled to an "extraordinary remedy at this time if they did not pursue their remedy at the proper time. Senator Teller. It seemed to me a very remarkable thing in an act of Congress that Congress should try to destroy a lease existing at the time, and I do not think the point would be met by the sug- gestion that the Government had absolute right over its wards. Mr. Cornish. The parties had ample power to carry that forward into a thirty-year lease. Mr. Childs. In tracts of 960 acres. Mr. Wright. The Curtis Act says : All lessees shall pay on each coal or asphalt claim at the rate of one hundred dollars per annum in advance for the first and second years, two hundred dollars per annum m advance for the third and fourth years, and five hundred dollars for each succeeding year thereafter. The act also says: All leases under this agreement shall include the coal or asphaltum or other min- eral, as the case may be, in or under nine hundred and sixty acres, which shall be in a square as nearly as possible, and shall be for thirty years. Senator Teller. The whole question, it seems to me, presents a proposal for the courts rather than for legislation, and an appeal to the cotirts is the only thing that can do the parties any good. No reconunendation that we could make would do them any good. The Department might accept a suggestion from us and might not. Senator Long. Even a Senate resolution would not do. Senator Teller. No ; and it is very doubtful whether we ought to do a thing of that kind with reference to a Department. We can pass a law ratifying an original agreement, or something of that kind, but even that might require a good deal of effort in Congress. Adjourned, to meet at Vinita, Ind. T., to-morrow, Tuesday, Novem- ber 13, 1906, at 10.30 a. m. Childs 's Exhibit L. Copy of coal lease January 9, 1892, at Lehigh, Ind. T.,from Henry Breedlove, James D. Davis, and David W. Hodges, citizens and residents of Lehigh, Choctaw Nation, Ind. T. . parlies of the first part, to J. M. Ford, of Denison, Tex., and Newton B. Childs, oj Kansas City, Mo., parties of the second part. Recorded in the office of the county clerk, pages 589 to 593, book 1, of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Ind. T., March 24, 1892. B. S. Smiser, County Clerh. This agreement, made and entered into in duplicate this 9th day of January, A. D 1892, at Lehigh, Ind. T., by and between Henry Breedlove, James D. Davis, and David W. Hodges, citizens and residents of Lehigh, Choctaw Nation, Ind. T., parties of the first part, and J. M. Ford, of Denison, Tex., and Newton B. Childs, of Kansas City, Mo., parties of the second part, witnesseth: , , . • That said parties of the first part, for themselves, their heirs, executors adminis- trators and assigns, in consideration of the sum of II to them cash m hand paid by said parties of the second part, the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged, and lor other valuable considerations hereinafter mentioned, have this day contracted, and by these presents do contract, with said parties of the second part, their successors and assigns, that said parties of the seconid part, for and during the full term of six S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 3 26 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. years, with the privilege of twelve years at their option from the above date, shall have the exclusive right and privilege of mining, digging, and removing coal, bormg and otherwise prospecting for same on the following described tracts or parcels ot land m the county of Atoka, Choctaw Nation, Ind. T., which are shown and all their boundary lines defined on the plat or map hereto attached and made a part hereof, which said plat or map is recognized by all parties to this agreement as a correct map of the coal claims called the "Breedlove claim and East Davis claim," more particularly defined as follows, to wit: Beginning at a drill (discovery) hole called the center of the Breed- love claim lying south 58° 30', west 5.050 feet from a mound, which mound lies north 52°, west 4,070 feet from Cottonwood tree, the center of the Denison and Washita Rail- road claim; thence from point beginning 1 mile in every direction, excepting and barring that portion on the west side of East Briar Creek, and the interference on east sides of boundary lines of the Folsom claim and the Denison and Washita Railroad claim. The East Davis claim, more particularly described as follows, to wit: Beginning at a point called "Davis discovery shaft," lying south 39° 20', west 4,070 feet from a drill hole at the center of the Breedlove claim-, which drill hole lies south 58° 20', west 5,050 feet from a mound, which mound lies north 52°, west 4 070 feet from a Cottonwood tree in the center of the Denison and Washita Railroad claim; thence from the point of beginning 1 mile in every direction excepting and barring that portion on the east side of East Briar Creek and the interference by the boundary line of the west West Davis claim. The foregoing claims being claimed by and secured to the parties of the first part, who are known to be citizens of said Choctaw Nation, duly authorized to take up and hold and own said right and claim under the constitution and laws of the said Choctaw Nation aforesaid. Said party of the second part shall have the right to use, occupy, and control all of said lands for erecting tenement buildings thereon, the same to be occupied by their employees, and for such other buildings and superstructures as may be necessary for properly opening up, developing, and working of said coal mines, with the further right of surface use for all necessary tracks and such shafts and openings as may be required thereon for the economical and efficient working of the same. And said parties of the second part shall have the right to cut and use any of the timber on said lands for building houses or other works in, above, and about said mines and for use in said mines; said parties of the second part shall also have the use of all stone and such other materials as may be found thereon for the same purpose, when necesssary, for the operation and development of said mines. Said parties of the second part shall keep or cause to be kept correct and proper accounts of all coal mined upon and from the property above described, and shall pay to the party of the first part a royalty of one-quarter of 1 cent per bushel of 85 pounds on coal which shall pass over a 1-inch screen, and on such coal as will pass through a 1-inch screen no royalty shall be due or payable. Royalties under this agreement shall be paid monthly, and on or before the first day of the second month succeeding that in which the coal is mined. And until advised to the contrary by the party of the first part, this royalty shall be paid to David W. Hodges, who is authorized to receipt for same for all of the parties of the first part. It is further understood and agreed that this agreement gives to the parties of the second part the right to control the surface occupancy of the lands hereinbefore described, and that no buildings shall be erected or occupied thereon without the consent of said second parties. And said parties of the second part shall have the right of way for and may con- struct and operate or cause to be constructed and operated a line of railway to and upon the Lehigh coal field into and through the premises hereinbefore described for use and during the existence of this agreement. Whenever this agreement shall terminate by limitation, or for any cause or at any time during the continuance of this agreement, said party of the second part shall have the right of its option to remove or otherwise dispose of all its machinery, tools, buildings, or other property of any nature whatsoever made or placed by them' upon said land. It being agreed by the party of the second part that no abandon- ment of these premises shall be made as long as coal can profitably be mined there- from: Provided, That if no development shall have been made of these claims prior to December 31, 1892, by the location of a mine thereon, or the beginning of the con- struction of a railroad thereto, it shall be at the option of either of the parties to this agreement to terminate the same by giving the other party sixty days notice. Also said second parties shall prospect and develop the coal field at their own expense, and any discovery made by said second parties outside of above-men- tioned claims shall be located and held by said parties of the first part, but the right to mine said coal shall belong to said second parties on the same terms and conditions as herein expressed. This contract and agreement to be in full force and effect from and after sixty days from the date hereof. State of Texas, County of Grayson: Before me, W. S. Nevins, a notary public in and for Grayson County, Tex., on this day personally appeared J. M. Ford, who is personally known to me to be the same person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument, and Newton B. Childs, who was made known to me on the oath of said J. M. Ford to be the same person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument, and they severally acknowl- edged to me that they executed the said instrument for the purposes and consideration therein expressed. Given under my hand and official seal on this the 13th day of January, 1892. [notarial seal.] W. S. Nevins, Notary Public, Grayson County, Tex. Entered and recorded in my office, this, the 24th day of March, A. D. 1892, on pages 589, 590, 591, 592, and 593, book No. 1 of Atoka Cqunty records. Witness my hand and official seal this 24th day of March, 1892. B. S. Smiser, County and Probate Clerh. Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory. In witness whereof, the said parties have hereunto subscribed their names and affiLxed their private seals, using scrolls for seals, the day and year first above written. Henry Breedlove. James D. Davis. David W. Hodges. J. M. Ford. Newton B. Childs. Indian Territory, Second Judicial Division, ss.: Before me, John Rennie, a notary public, duly commissioned and acting in and for the aforesaid division and Territory, on this day personally came and appeared Henry Breedlove, David W. Hodges, and James D. Davis, to me known as the persons whose names are subscribed to the foregoing instrument, and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purposes and considerations therein expressed. Given under my hand officially, and seal of office, this the llthday of January, 1892. [notarial seal.] John Rennie, Notary Public, Second Judicial Division, Indian Territory. Commission expires 14th February, 1895. seal, seal. SEAL. SEAL. SEAL. Childs's Exhibit M. Copy of the national contract between E. N. Wright, national agent of the Choctaw Nation, D. 0. Fisher, national agent of the Chickasaw Nation, and Newton B. Childs and J. M. Ford. Indorsement: Filed for record in my office July 14, 1892. [seal.] E. N. Wright, National Agent Choctaw Nation. Caddo, Ind. T., November 24, 1892. This is to certify that the bond of Newton B, Childs and J. M. Ford, for the payment of royalty to the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, was this day presented and approved and forwarded to the national secretary to be filed in this office. Witness my hand and the seal of the Choctaw Nation this the day and date first above written. [seal.] W. N. Jones, Principal Chief Choctaw Nation. A. Telle, Private Secretary. 28 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. This contract, made and entered into in duplicate at Lehigh I. T by and between E. N. Wright, National Agent of the Choctaw Nation m behalf of said nation rnmmiqqionpd as such bv W. N. Jones, principal chief of the Ohoctaw JNation, on rSth day orOctober,^890, in pursuafce of an act of the general council of said nation, approved November 5th, 1880, and D. 0. Fisher, national agent of the Chicka- saw Nation in behalf of said nation, commissioned as such by W. L ±iyrd, governor SThfcSckLaw Nation, on the 2nd day of September, A D 1890, m pursuance of an act of the Chickasaw legislature, approved October 18th, 1876, part es of the first part, and J. M. Ford, of the City of Denison, State of Texas and Newton B Childs, of Kansas City, State of Missouri, parties of the second part, witnesseth, as follows: Whereas, the parties of the second part desire to engage m the business of mining coal upon and from what are known as the Consolidated Henry Breedlove^ James D Davis David W. Hodges, and other claims, all situated m Atoka County, Choctaw Nation west northwest, and north of the Atoka coal mines, beginning at a point on the southwest side of what is known as the Folsom claim, the situation and extent of which claim and claims are actually shown upon the map hereto annexed, marked "A," and also identified by the signatures of the parties hereto, to which reference is hereby made; and . _ , . . . Whereas, the parties of the second part also desire to engage m the business of min- ing coal upon and from such other claims, mines, or openings as may be hereafter made or discovered in or upon the same coal fields in which the said described claims are situated; and Whereas, it is for the interest of the Choctaw Nation and its citizens that the said claims and the said coal fields shall be mined and developed; and Whereas, the parties of the second part have filed the bond as required by the laws of the Choctaw Nation; Now, therefore, in consideration of the premises and of the sum of one dollar by each of the parties hereto, in hand paid to the other, the receipt whereof is hereby acknowl- edged, and of the covenant herein contained, the parties hereto mutually covenant and agree with each other as follows, to wit: 1. That we, E. N. Wright and D. O. Fisher, the national agents of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, under and by authority of the laws of said nations, hereby contract to the parties of the second part, their heirs, representatives, or assigns, the following tract of land, to wit: "Beginning at a point marked ' B ' on the southwest side of the 'Folsom Claim,' thence south 45 degrees west eight (8) miles, thence due northwest fifteen (15) miles, thence northeast eight (8) miles, and from there to the point of beginning." 2. It is hereby agreed by the parties of the first part that the party of the second part shall so engage, on the condition that on all coal mined within said Choctaw and Chickasaw nations said party of the second part shall pay monthly to the properly authorized officers of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations a royalty of one-half (i) of one cent per bushel of eighty-five pounds for all coal passing over a one-inch screen, said payments to be made during the month succeeding the month in which the coal is mined, and in the proportion of three-fourths to the Choctaw Nation, and one-fourthr to the Chickasaw Nation, to be applied under the direction of the respective govern- ments, to purposes of education, and such other objects as may be best calculated to promote and advance the welfare and happiness of said nations and their people. 3. The parties of the second part, their representatives and assigns, shall provide suitable and convenient facilities for weighing all coal mined by them, their repre- sentatives or assigns, upon or from the said claims, in order that the weigher of said nations might ascertain the weights of all coal so mined. And the books of said second parties showing the amount of coal mined under this contract shall at all times be open lor inspection by the party of the first part. 4. The parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, shall give preced- ence to all orders of Choctaw and Chickasaw citizens, and of merchants and licensed traders in said Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, for coal for their own use, over those of persons, firms, or corporations not resident in said Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and at the lowest regular prices at the mines or on cars or wagons for transportation; and, also, shall furnish coal to all Indian and authorized Indian traders in the Indian Territory, for their own use, to be shipped, when paid for, to any railroad station or other point in said territory, as the purchaser may require, filling all orders from such Indians and traders according to the priority in receipt of the same, and at prices not exceeding the regular prices to other customers at the mines, or on cars or wagons for transporta- tion. 5. The parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, having filed a bond in the sum of ten thousand (10,000) dollars running to the United States, for the use and benefit of the said Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, to be approved by the principal chief of the Choctaw Nation, and to be continued for the faithful compliance with the FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 29 provisions of this contract. And, immediately upon the approval of said bond, this contract shall take effect and shall continue in force until the expiration of the term of six years after the date of the giving of such bond, unless sooner revoked, as herein- before provided. 6. In consideration of the royalty hereinbefore covenanted to be paid, and of the covenants of this instrument to be kept and performed by the parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, the parties of the first part, on behalf of the Choc- taw and Chickasaw nations, hereby grant full, free, and exclusive permission to the parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, to do all and everything that may be necessary for the successful mining, removal, and shipping of coal upon and from the said mining claims, which are leased to the parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, for the purposes, terms, and periods herein mentioned, with the absolute control of the surface and occupancy of the land hereinbefore de- scribed, and hereby covenant and agree that full protection shall be afforded to the parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, to the limit of the authority of the said nations, against any interference with or stoppage of the full, free, and exclusive enjoyment of all privilege hereby granted. 7. The parties of the first part hereby further covenant and agree that upon the ex- piration of this contract the parties of the second part, their representatives or assigns, may renew the same for the further period of six years, and thereafter may again renew the same for a period of six years, upon the same terms and conditions herein contained. In witness whereof, we, the said E. N. Wright, national agent of the Choctaw Nation, and D. O. Fisher, national agent for Chickasaw Nation, have, by virtue of the herein- before recited authority conferred upon us respectively by the Choctaw and Chicka- saw nations, hereto subscribed our names and affixed our private seals (there being no public ones), and the said J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs have hereunto set their hands and seals this 9th day of July, A. D. 1892. (Signed) E. N. Wright, [seal.] National Agent, Choctaw Nation. (Signed) D. O. Fisher, [seal.] National Agent, Chickasaw Nation. (Signed) J. M. Ford. [seal.] (Signed) Newton B. Childs. [seal.] State op Missouri, County of Jackson, ss. On the 9th day of July, 1892, before me, L. E. Wyne, United States Commissioner for the Western District of Missouri, personally appears E. N. Wright, national agent for the Choctaw Nation, and J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs, to me known to be the persons described in and who executed the foregoing instrument, and acknowledged that they executed the same as their free act. In testimony whereof, I hereunto set my hand and affixed my official seal at my office in Kansas City, the day and year first above written. [seal.] (Signed) L. E. Wyne, TJ. S. Commissioner Western District of Missouri. State of Texas, County of Grayson, ss. Before me, W. J. Scott, a notary public for Grayson County, this day personally appeared D. 0. Fisher, national agent for Chickasaw Nation, known to me to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that he executed the same fof the purposes and considerations and in capacity therein stated. Given under my hand and official seal on the 19th day of July, 1892. [seal.] (Signed) W. J. Scott, Notary Public, Grayson County, Teras. Kansas City, Mo., April 26, 1897. For the sum of $1, to me in hand paid, receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, I hereby assign to Newton B. Childs, of Kansas City, Mo., any rights I niay have by virtue of this contract; providing, however, that should mining operations be had under this contract with the Choctaws or Chickasaws that a new bond shall be given for the pavment of royalties'; otherwise my interest is not to pass. ^ ■^ (Signed) J. M. Ford. State op Missouri, County of Jackson, ss. I hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and correct copy made by me of contract as copied by me. [seal.] (Signed) Annie L. Greer, Notary Public, Jackson County, Missouri. My commission expires October 19, 1901. 30 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Childs's Exhibit N. Covy of coal lease, date ISth day of July im, at Lehigh, I-nd T., betwemHen^Breed- fove et al ciHzens and residents of Choctaw Nation partus of tM first part, and J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs, parties of the second part. Endorsement: Filed for record in my office July 16, 1892. FSEAL "■ E. JN. WRIGHT, '■ ' ■■' National Agent of Choctaw Nation. Piled for record on pages 598 to 602, book 1, at Atoka, the Wth day of July, 1892, in the office of the county clerk. „ „ „ ^ , ^, -, B. S. Smisbb, County Clerk. This agreement, made and entered into in duplicate, this 13th day of July, A. D. 1892, at Lehigh, Indian Territory, by and between Henry Breedlove, James D. Davis, David W. Hodges, B. N. Wright, and others, citizens and residents of the Choctaw Nations, Indian Teiritory, parties of the first part, and J. M. Ford, of Denison, Texas, and Newton B. Childs, of Kansas City, Mo., parties of the second part, witn^sseth: That said parties of the first part for themselves, their heirs, executors, adminis- trators and assigns, in consideration of the sum of one dollar, to them cash in hand paid by said parties of the second part, the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged, and for other valuable considerations hereinafter mentioned, have this day contracted and by these presents do contract with said parties of the second part, their successors and assigns, that said parties of the second part for and during the whole term of 50 years from the above date, shall have the exclusive right and privilege of mining, digging, and removing coal, boring and otherwise prospecting for same on the follow- ing described tracts or parcels of land in the county of Atoka, Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, which are shown and all their boundary lines defined on the plat or map hereto attached and made a part hereof, which said plat or map is recognized by all parties to this agreement as a correct map of the coal claims called the Breedlove claim, East Davis claim, and D. W. Hodges and others, more particularly defined as follows, to-wit: Beginning at a drUl (discovery) hole called the centre of the Breed- love claim' lying south 58 degrees 30 minutes, west 5,050 feet from a mound, which mound lies north 52 degrees, west 4,070 feet from cottonwood tree, the centre of the Denison and Washita Railroad claim, thence from point beginning one mile in every direction, excepting and barring that portion on the west side of East Briar Creek and the interference on east sides of boundary lines of the Folsom claim and the Den- ison and Washita Railroad claim. The "East Davis claim" more particularly described as follows, to wit: Beginning at a point called "Davis discovery shaft, lying south 39 degrees 20 minutes west 4,070 feet from a drill hole at the center of the Breedlove claim, which drill hole lies south 58 degrees 20 minutes west 5,050 feet from a mound, which mound lies north 52 degrees west 4,070 feet from a cottonwood tree in the center of the Denison & Washita Railroad claim; thence from the point of beginning one mile in every direction, excepting and barring that portion on the east side of "East Briar Creek," and the interference by the boundary line of the west "West Davis claim," also the D. W. Hodges' claim being situate 2 miles south of the West Davis claim, also all claims that we, or either of us, may now or hereafter hold, within the boundary as described on the map marked A, and attached to the National Contract made and filed July 9, 1892. The foregoing claims being claimed by and secured to the parties of the first part, who are known to be citizens of said Choctaw Nation, duly authorized to take up and hold and own said right and claim under the constitution and laws of the said Choctaw Nation aforesaid. Said party of the second part shall have the right to use, occupy, and control all of said lands for erecting tenement buildings thereon, the same to be occupied by their employees and for such other buildings and superstructures as may be necessary for piroperly opening up, developing, and working of said coal mines with the further right of surface use for all necessary tracks and such shafts and openings as may be required thereon for the economical and efficient working of the same. And said parties of the second part shall have the right to cut and use any of the timber on said lands for building houses or other works in, above, and about said mines and for use in said mines; said parties of the second part shall also have the use of all stone and such other materials as may be found thereon for the same purpose when necessary, for the operation and development of said mines. Said parties of the second part shall keep or cause to be kept correct and proper accounts of all coal mined upon and from the property above described and sMl pay to the party first part a royalty of one-quarter of one cent per bushel of eighty-five FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 3l pounds on coal which shall pass over a 1-inch screen, and on such coal as will pass through a 1-inch screen no royalty shall be due or payable. Royalties under this agreement shall be paid monthly, and on or before the first day of the second month succeeding that in which the coal is mined. And until advised to the contrary by the party of the first part this royalty shall be paid to , , the parties of the first part. As per memoranda to be hereafter furnished by the parties of the first part. It is further understood and agreed that this agreement gives to the parties of the second part the right to control the surface occupancy of the lands hereinbefore described, and that no buildings shall be erected or occupied thereon without the consent of said second parties. And said parties of the second part shall have the right of way for and may construct and operate, or cause to be constructed and operated, a line of railway to and upon the Lehigh coal field into and through the premises hereinbefore described for use for and diu-ing the existence of this agreement. Whenever this agreement shall terminate by limitation, or for any cause, or at any time during the continuance of this agreement, said party of the second part shall have the right of its option to remove or otherwise dispose of all its machinery, tools, buildings, or other property of any nature whatsoever made or placed by them upon said land. It being agreed by the party of the second part that no abandonment of these premises shall be made as long as coal can profitably be mined therefrom. Provided that if no development shall have been made on one or more claims prior to one year from this date by the location of a mine thereon, or the beginning of the construction of a railroad thereto, it shall be at the option of either of the parties to this agreement to terminate the same by giving the other party sixty days' notice. Also said second parties shall prospect and develop the coal field at their own expense, and any discovery made by said second parties outside of above-mentioned claims shall be located and held by said parties of the first part, but the right to mine said coal shall belong to said second parties on the same terms and conditions as herein expressed. This contract and agreement to be in full force and effect from and after the date hereof. In witness whereof, the said parties have hereunto subscribed their names and affixed their private seals, using scrolls for seals, the day and year first above written. ^Signed) Henry Breedlove. [seal.' (Signed) J. D. Davis. [seal.| (Signed^ D. W. Hodges. [seal.' (Signed) E. N. Wright. [seal.^ (Signed) John C. Davis. [seal.' (Signed) Mrs. M. A. Smalwood, [seal.' (Signed) By J. D. Davis, [seal.' Atty. in fact. (Signed) J. M. Ford. [seal.] (Signed) Newton B. Childs. [seal.] Indian TBRRrroRT, Second Judicial Division, ss: On this 13th day of July, 1892, personally appeared before me, a notary public of the above-named judicial division, Hemy Breedlove, James D. Davis, David W. Hodges, E. N. Wright, John C. Davis, Mrs. M. A. Smalwood by her attorney in fact James D. Davis, to me personally well known as the person named in the foregoing instrument, as the grantors and acknowledged that they had executed the same for the considera- tions and purposes therein set forth as their free, voluntary act and deed. Witness my hand and seal as such notary public the day and year last above men- tioned. ^ „ John Rbnnib, Notary Public. The State op Texas, County of Grayson, ss: On this 14th day of July, 1892, personally appeared before me, a notary public of the above-named county and State, J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs, to me personally well known as the persons named in the foregoing instrument, and acknowledged that they executed the same for the considerations and purposes therein set forth as their free, voluntary act and deed. . , , , , ^ i_ Witness my hand and seal as such notary public the day and year last above men- tioned. _ „ _ J. K. Handy, Notary Public, 32 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES County op Atoka, Choctaw Nation, ss: ^.-OUNTY Oif' ATOKA, K^ILUVlliW j.yuuu^'v, «"- -»t , • 1 1 1. I B S Smiser county and probate clerk of Atoka, Ghoctaw Nation, do hereby cer- tify' laUhe^rgoing^XmLt wa. entered and recor^ 599 600 601 and 602 of Book 1, of Atoka County, this the 14th day ot July, A. U. iS92. wftness my hand and seal a^ such officer the day and year last above written. r n (Signed) B. S. Smisbe,- Childs's Exhibit O. Oom of revort and analysis of Prof. Wm. J. Rattle, mining engineer, Lehigh, Imlian ^^ ■> ^ 'Territory, March 10, 1892. BEPORT AND ANALYSIS OP PROP. WM. J. BATTLE, MINING ENGINEER. Lehigh, Ind. T., March 10, 1892. Messrs. Newton B. Childs & Co., Kansas City, Mo. Gentlemen: At your request I have visited the coal fields of the Indian Territory and submit to you the following report: Location. These coal fields are in the western part of the Choctaw Nation, near the town of Lehigh, and between the fiftieth and fifty-fourth mile posts, and known as claims Noa. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. Claim No. 1. Located If miles from No. 6 shaft of Lehigh mine, which is operated by the Osage Mining Company and is a continuation of this vein. On this property there is a shaft 42 ieet deep showing a vein of coal 5 feet thick and dips 5° to the east. Coal also out- crops 200 feet west of shaft. An analysis of average sample taken from top to bottom gave, moisture, 2.92; volatile matter, 47.44; fixed carbon, 41.43; ash, 8.21; sulphur, 2.51. Claim No. 2. Known as Strip Bank, located IJ miles from No. 1 claim. Bore holes and outcrop show the vein to be continuous length. This can be stripped, as the surface covering is only 2 to 3 feet. Thickness of vein, 4J feet. Dip, 8° to east. An analysis of average sample gave moisture, 2.70"; violatile matter, 47.02; fixed carbon, 41.86; ash, 8" 42; sulphur, 4.28; 2,600 feet west of strip bank on this same claim coal outcrops with a dip to the west. This proves up two distinct coal basins on the property. Judging from the course of this west vein I think it will eventually run into the No. 4 claim. Claim No. 3. This was a bare hole and claimed to show 4 feet 9 inches coal and of the same quality as No. 4 claim. Claim No. 4. Located If miles from No. 2 claim. Shaft on this property 37 feet deep, showin| 4 feet 7 inches vein coal, with 5 feet cannel coal on top. This is a separate basin froir Lehigh and much better quality. No sulphur showing to the eye till within 5 inchet, of the bottom. Dip, 5° northwest. Made very fair coke. In this claim the coal out- crops 300 feet east and 3,000 feet south of shaft. A bore hole was put down 2,000 feet west of shaft, which passes through 4 feet 9 inches of coal, same in quality as shown in shaft. About 1,000 feet from shaft a second bore hole was drilled 46 feet 10 inches showing the coal 4 feet 6 inches thick and of same quality as shaft. The surface lies very flat and regular, showing no faults or dikes, which is a strong indication of find- ing a large coal basin under this claim. An average sample taken from the shaft gave moisture, 3.22; volatile matter, 46.74; fixed carbon, 45,24; ash, 4.80; sulphur, 1.46. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 33 Claim No. .5. Located 1 mile from shaft on No. 4. Here the coal outcrops in several places and appears of same quality as No. 4. Dip, 5° west. Claim No. 6. Located 1 mile from shaft on No. 4 claim. A bore hole they claimed showed a 5-foot vein of coal and same in quality as No. 4. Dip, 5° east. Claim No. 7. Located three-fourths of a mile from No. G. Coal outcrops in bed of creek, showing 2i feet vein. Dip, 7° east. Claim No. 8. Located 1| miles from No. 7 claim. A shaft 32 feet deep shows a vein of 4 feet. Dip, 10° east. An average sample taken from this shaft gave moisture, 2.60; volatile, matter, 46.42; fixed carbon, 40.80; ash, 10.18; sulphur, 7.32. An outcrop 100 feet from shaft exposed a 4 J feet vein at a depth of 3 feet from the surface. Dip, 14°. An average sample gave moisture, 3.18; volatile matter, 47.50; fixed carbon, 38.38; ash, 10.94; sulphur, 2.45. Claim No. 9. Located IJ miles from No. 8 claim. A very small outcrop appeared. Claim No. 10. Located three-fourths of a mile from No. 9 claim. Coal outcropped exposing a 3J- foot vein. Analysis of average sample gave moisture, 5.55; volatile matter, 49.70; fixed carbon, 39.79; sulphur, 1.77. Claims Nos. 11 and 12. These I did not go to, as they were nothing but bore holes and nothing to see. Claims Nos. IS and 14. These are continuations of Nos. 4 and 5. Claim No. 13 has a small outcrop and claim. No. 14 a bore hole which is claimed to be of same quality as Nos. 4 and 5. QUANTITY. Judging from the surface outcrops and shafts on the 10 miles of territory examined, there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of coal. These claims must be further developed to prove their quantity absolutely, but it is reasonable to believe that where you find such a continuous line of outcrops through an almost unbroken field you will have a large basin of coal underlying them, QUALITY. All the coal found on the claims are bituminous and compare very favorably with the McAlester and Lehigh, which are now being mined in large quantities. An anal- ysis of their supply by myself I give for comparison. It must be borne in mind that the sample taken from these claims were most of them outcrops, the greatest depth being only 42 feet, while those of the McAlester were a depth of over 200 feet. The No. 4 claim, which is by far the best in quality, and most favorable, will make a fair grade of coke, and I believe when it is worked at the same depth as the McAlester its quality will be equal to it. Nos. 5 and 14 will undoubtedly prove to be the same thing in quality as No. 4. All the rest of the claims are merchantable coals and compare favorably with the coal territory. All claims have a good roof. 34 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. CHEAPNESS OF MINING. This coal can be mined cheap if properly equipped with good hoisting machinery and cutting machines in the mines, which reduce the miners and lessen the chances of strikes and stoppages from that source. In order to mine this coal cheaply further developments must be done, so that working shafts can be located in the proper places. Wood for mining purposes is in abundance on the claims and will last for years. No. 2 claim can be stripped (the surface being but 2 to 3 feet thick) very cheaply. The slope of surface down the draw where the coal outcrops is sufficient if stripping is commenced at lower end to drain itself. Respectfully submitted. William J. Rattle, M. E. Indian Territory coals. Moisture. Volatile matter. Fixed carbon. Ash. 1.20 41.66 52. 7S 4 36 3.20 60.80 37.96 7.92 2.92 47.44 41.43 8.21 2.70 47.02 41.86 8.42 3.22 46.74 45.24 4.80 2.60 46.42 40.80 10.18 3.18 47.50 36.38 10.94 6.55 49.70 39.79 4.96 Sulphur. McAlester Lehigh No. 1 claim, Cottonwood. No. 2 claim, Trip Baric. . , No. 4 claim, McJames No. -claim, shaft No. 8 claim, outcrop No. 10 claim 0.56 2.01 2.51 4 28 1.46 7.32 2.43 1.77 Childs's Exhibit P. Copy of letter from Joseph Fletcher, company mine inspector Santa Fe Railway, July 5, Chicago, July 5, 189$. Dear Sib: Under your instructions I visited the coal fields controlled by M. N. B. Childs & Co. You will find in the following a report of the same. This property bounds the Lehigh and Coalgate property on the northwest. The crop line is shown for 6 miles along the southeast line, and has been prospected in seversd places by strip pits and small shafts. On the northeast corner of the field strip pit showed 3 feet 10 inches of clean bitu- minous coal, with 6 feet to 9 feet of shale covering. Stanley Davies' claim, about 2 miles southwest, prospect shaft shows 3 feet 10 inches of coal with 16 feet of shale covering, owing to it being farther in from the crop line. On the West Briar Creek, on the Davies claim, the coal is shown 3 feet 10 inches, with from 8 to 10 feet of shale covering. There are several bore holes along the line of crop, which I was informed had struck the coal as far southwest as the D. W. Hodge claim, 6 miles southwest of the northeast corner of the property. This coal seam dins from 10° to 12° north, 15° west. r f j F There is considerable of this coal that could be stripped 100 feet from the crop lines, balance by shafts and slopes. There are several faults running through this field which displaces the coal, as can be seen by the changes of dip in the crop lines. . The quantity is in proportion to the size of the plateau or table-land between these displace- ments. At Hickory Hill, northwest of Atoka about 4 miles, there are coal croppings from 2 feet 7 inches, but is displaced in several places. You will see by the samples brought in the quality of the coal. Sample No. 1, bottom coal from 16-foot shaft. Sample No. 2, top coal from 16-foot shaft. Sample No. 3, bottom coal from 8-foot strip. Sample No. 4, bottom coal Hickory Hill fields. Hoping this will enable you, with plan, to see the outlines of this field, I am Yours, truly, Jos. Fletcher, Company Mine Inspector Santa Fe Railway. Chas. J. Devlin, Esq., Manager Coal Properties Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad, Topeka, Kans. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 35 Childs Exhibit Q. Copy of letter from. Hon. B. V. Belt, Acting Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washing- ton, D. C, September 15, 1892. Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, September 15, 1892. James P. Hadley, Esq., Kansas City, Mo. Sir: I am in receipt by Department reference of your communication of September 2, 1892, addressed to the Secretary of the Interior, in which you state that you have recently become interested in some coal leases in the Choctaw Nation, Indian Terri- tory, and that you have been told that it is necessary to the validity of such leases that they should be filed in the Department of the Interior and approved by the Secretary thereof; that on the other hand you have been told that the Attorney-General in 1886 or 1887, rendered a lengthy opinion to the effect that the Interior Department had nothing whatever to do with matters relating to patented Indian lands. You ask to be furnished with a copy of said opinion of the Attorney-General, and to be advised of the ruling of the Department relative to such leases. In compliance with your request I transmit you herewith a copy of the opinion of the Attorney-General of July 21, 1885, relative to whether there is any law empowering the Interior Department to authorize Indians to enter into contracts with any parties for the lease of Indian lands for grazing purposes, and also whether the President or the Interior Department has any authority to make a lease for grazing purposes of any part of any Indian reservation, or whether the approval of the President or the Secretary of the Interior would render any such lease made by Indians with other parties lawful and valid. Since the rendering of said opinion by the Attorney-General Congress has passed an act repealing all laws having the effect to prevent the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, Chickasaw, and Seminole nations, or either of them, from lawfully entering into leases or contracts for mining coal, for a period not exceeding ten years. The law referred to is contained in section 6 of the act of March 1, 1889 (25 Stat. L. , 783), entitled "An act to establish a United States court in the Indian Territory, and for other pur- poses," and is as follows: "That all laws having the effect to prevent the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, Chicka- saw, and Seminole nations, or either of them, from lawfully entering into leases or contracts for mining coal, for a period not exceeding ten years, are hereby repealed; and said court shall have jurisdiction over all controversies arising out of said mining leases or contracts, and of all questions of mining rights or invasions thereof where the amount involved exceeds the sum of one hundred dollars. ' ' Leases for the purpose of mining coal entered into with the Choctaw Nation in accordance with the laws of said nation (for a period not to exceed ten years) are not required to be approved by this office or the Interior Department in order to be valid. Very respectfully, (Signed) B. V. Belt, Acting Commissioner, Childs's Exhibit R. Copy of letter from A. C. Tanner, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, to the Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C, January 7, 1904. Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, January 7, 1904. The Secretary of the Interior. Sir: There is inclosed herewith a report from Inspector Wright, dated December 11, 1903, returning a communication from Edward C. Wright, of Kansas City, Mo., attorney representing J. M. Ford and Newton B. Childs, protesting against any further coal leases being made to parties covering lands claimed by them in the Choctaw Nation. The inspector says that Ford and Childs have not entered into any lease with the mining trustees; that the records of his office do not show that they ever made application for a lease in accordance with the regulations; that it appears they claim to have certain leases made in 1892 with individual citizens; and lie invites 36 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. attention to the provisions of the original agreement with the Choctaws and Chicka- saws concerning leases. . c ■■,■ ^ ^t. The provisions of the agreement referred to by the inspector are familiar to the Department. He says that under these provisions the individual leases claimed by Ford and Childs are void unless the land was covered by a national contract signed by the agents of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes, and the mines were being operated in good faith on April 23, 1897, which would give the lessees the right to have the contract renewed at its expiration, subject to the provisions of the act. He says that as Ford and Childs do not appear to have made application for a lease their claim is without merit, and recommends that Mr. Wright be advised in accordance with the above, and that his attention be called to the provisions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw supplemental agreement concerning the segregation of coal and asphalt lands and to section 61 of the supplemental agreement, which declares that no lease of .any coal or asphalt lands "shall be made after the final ratification of this agreement to 'the con- trary notwithstanding. ' ' The inspector inclosed with his report a sketch which shows the lease in existence in the vicinity of the tracts referred to by Mr. Wright. He says that it is impossible to exactly locate the land referred to in Mr. Wright's communication, as the same is not described according to the Government survey. y As it does not appear that Ford and Childs applied for a lease for coal lands in the Choctaw Nation, it is recommended that their attorney, Mr. Wright, be advised as indicated by the inspector. Very respecfully, A. C. Tonnee, ComTnissioner. Childs's Exhibit S. Copy of a financial statement showing moneys expended by Ford- Childs in pursuance to the provisions of their respective leases. STATEMENT OP MONEY EXPENDED ON PORD-CHILDS LEASES, WITH CITIZENS OF T^E CHOCTAW NATION, INDIAN TERRITORY; LEASES DATED JANVARY 9, 1892, AND JULY 13, 1892. Transcript from cashbook of N. B. Childs; Amount expended in the erection of houses, in sinking shafts, and making borings required, under the Choctaw and Chickasaw domestic laws, to perfect head-right titles during the years 1892 and 1893 $3, 280. 00 Mar. 15, 1894. Paid J. D. Davis and associates, advance royalty 515. 70 May 15,1894. Do 115.25 Sept. 17,1894. Do 550.00 Oct. 19, 1894. Ludgate, engineer, drilling 150. 00 Feb. 19,1905. J. D. Davis, drilling 250.00 Feb. 19, 1905. H. Breedlove, drilling 250. 50 Apr. 24,1905. J. D. Davis, advance royalty 250.25 Amount expended in grading and bridging 28 miles of the Denison and Northern Railroad, under stipulation clause in leases 41, 000. 00 46, 361..70 Childs's Exhibit T. Memorandum of the original laws applying to the Indians. In order to arrive at a correct understanding it will be necessary to go back and examine the treaties, etc., bearing upon the subject. THE CHOCTAW AND CHICKASAW INDIANS HAVE A EEE SIMPLE TITLE TO THEIR LANDS. .n-"^ nl^^'^^^ ^°^ owned by the Choctaws and Chickasaws were originally conveyed to the Choctaws m fee simple m pursuance of the second article of the treaty between them and the United States, concluded September 27, 1830 (7 Stat. L. 330) wherein It IS provided that— > /■ FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 37 "The United States, under a grant specially to be made by the President of the United States, shall cause to be conveyed to the Choctaw Nation a tract of country west of the Mississijjpi River, in fee simple to them and their descendants, to inure to them while they exist as a nation, and live on it, beginning near Fort Smith, where the Arkansas boundary crosses the Arkansas River, running thence to the source of the Canadian Fork, if in the limits of the United States, or to those limits; thence due south to the Red River, and down that river to the west boundary of the Territory of Arkan- sas; thence north along that line to the beginning The grant to be executed as soon as the present treaty shall be ratified." In pursuance of said treaty patent was issued to the Choctaw Nation covering the tract of country above described, under date of March 23, 1842. INCORPORATION OF THE CIIICKASAWS WITH THE CHOCTAWS. By a convention and agreement entered into between the Choctaws and the Chick- asaws, January 17, 1837, subject to the approval of the President and Senate of the United States, and which was approved by the Senate February 25, and by the President March 24, 1857 (11 Stat. L., 573), it was agreed by the Choctaws that the Chickasaws should have the privilege of forming a district within the limits of their (the Choctaw) country, to be held on the same terms that the Choctaws held it. "Except the right of disposing of it, which is held in common with the Choctaws and Chickasaws, to be called the Chickasaw district of th* Choctaw Nation, to have an equal representation in their general council, and to be placed on an equal footing in every other respect with any of the other districts of said nation, except a voice in the management of the consideration which is given for these rights and privileges; and the Chickasaw people to be entitled to all the rights and privileges of Choctaws, with the exception of participating in the Choctaw annuities, and the consideration to be paid for these rights and privileges and to be subject to the same laws to which the Choctaws are; but the Chickasaws reserve to themselves the sole right and privi- lege of controlling and managing the residue of their funds, as far as is consistent with the late treaty between the said people and the Government of the United States, ' and of making of such regulations and electing such officers as they may think proper." Article 5 of said convention or agreement states: "It is hereby declared to be the intention of the parties hereto that equal rights and privileges shall pertain to both Choctaws and Chickasaws to settle in whatever district they may think proper, and to be eligible to all the different offices of the Choctaw Nation, and to vote on the same terms in whatever district they may settle, except that the Choctaws are not to vote in anywise for officers in relation to the resi- due of the Chickasaw fund." Difficulties having arisen between the two nations in regard to the boundary line between the Chickasaw district described in the convention of 1847 and the other districts of the Choctaw Nation, a treaty or convention was concluded between said nations on November 4, 1854, which was duly ratified by the Senate and approved by the President of the United States (10 Stat. L., 1116), and by which the bounda- ries of the Chickasaw district were reestablished and defined, but no modification was made in respect of any of the other provisions of the convention of 1837. The Chickasaw district was again defined by the treaty of June 22, 1855, between the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and the United States. The title of the Choctaws and the Chickasaws to their lands, as has been seen, is a fee simple one, and is the same as that of the Cherokees, and as to the latter the courts have held it to be an absolute fee simple (Holden v. Joy, 17 Wall., 250; U. S. v. Ben. Reese, Western District Arkansas, May term, 1879; U. S. v. Rogers, 23 Fed. Rep., 659; U. S. V. Soule et al., 30 Fed. Rep., 918; Cherokee Nation v. Southern Kansas Rwy. Co., 135 U. S., 441.) RIGHT OF SELF-GOVERNMENT AND JURISDICTION OVER PERSON AND PROPERTY. The Choctaws and Chickasaws have been recognized as having the power to make treaties for more than one hundred years. .They have exercised the right of self- government, in civil as well as criminal matters, from the foundation of our Govern- ment. This right of self-government is distinctly recognized and declared in the fourth article of the treaty with them of 1830 (17 Stat. L., 333), and again m article 7 of the treaty of 1855, wherein it is provided that— "The Choctaws and Chickasaws shall be secured in the unrestricted right ol self- government and full jurisdiction over persons and property within the respective limits." 38 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. This right has been passed upon by the United States Supreme Court, which says:^ "All rights which belong to self-government have been recognized as vested in them. * * * In the management of their internal concerns they are dependetn upon no power." (5 Pet., 16; 6 Pet., 580; Choctaw Nation v. U. S., 28 and 33.) The Secretary of the Interior, in a letter to the President pro tempore of the Senate, dated January 3, 1885, in speaking upon the subject of the right of the Cherokee Nation to lease its lands, said: "The rights reserved to the United States are clearly expressed m the several treaties, and the right of the United States to control the Cherokee property and pre- vent the nation from having the full and absolute control of the products of these lands is not even suggested. * * * The Department has not considered it the duty of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior to interfere with the affairs of the Cherokee Nation, except in cases especially provided for by treaty with that nation. * * * The Cherokees have a fee simple title to their lands, and they do not recognize the right of the Department to interfere in the management of their affairs with reference thereto." As before stated, the Choctaw and Chickasaw title is exactly the same as that of the Cherokees, and these decisions apply to them as well as the Cherokees. Much more might be said on this subject, but the foregoing is sufficient to show that the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations not only have a fee simple title to their lands, and the unrestricted right of self-government, but full and complete iurisdic- tion of the persons and property within their limits, and the right to make such use of their property as they may see fit. The action of their legislative and executive bodies in this respect have always been recognized by the Government of the United States in all its branches. Under date of December 22, 1886, the Chickasaw legislature passed an act relating to minerals, etc., which was confirmed or approved by the Choctaw legislature Jan- uary 27, 1894. By the terms of this act three or more citizens of the nation have the right to take out a charter for the development and working of mineral lands, as well as the right to negotiate with the noncitizens, or white man, and enter into arrange- ments for developing and working the same. That law was passed upon and recog- nized by the Interior Department as constitutional and valid as far back as 1888, and operations under it are now being and have been carried on for several years past. In view of the laws, treaties and decisions bearing upon the subject, it is not seen how the Interior Department could have done otherwise than recognize the validity of this law and the agreement and arrangements entered into in pursuance thereof. The law is much stronger now than when first brought to the attention of the Department, for the reason that it has since been approved by an act of the Choctaw legislature. Childs's Exhibit U. Copy of the laws of the Choctaw Nation as applied to the Ford- Childs leases. Section 18, Article YIl.— Constitution of the Choctaw Nation. "Sec. 18. Any citizen of the nation who may find any mine or mines, or mineral waters, shall have exclusive right and privilege to work the same so long as he may choose, within one mile in any direction from his works or improvements; provided, however, he does not interfere with the rights of the former settler. " (P. 21. Consti- tution and laws of the Choctaw Nation. Published, by authority and direction of the general council, by Joseph P. Folsom, 1869.) 4BTICLE 33.— Treaty of 1866. The unselected land shall be the common property of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in their corporate capacity, subject to the joint control of their legislative authorities. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. '6\) Childs's Exhibit V. Copy of that part of the Ciirtis Act which has attempted to invalidate Pord-Childs leases. AN ACT For the protection of the people of the Indian Territory, and for other purposes, [Act oJ June 25, 1898, chapter 517, 30 Statutes t Large, page 495.] Sec. 29. All agreements heretofore made by any person or corporation with any mernber or members of the Choctaw or Cliickasaw nations, the object of which was to obtain such member or members' permission to operate coal or asphalt, are hereby declared void: Provided, That nothing herein contained shall impair the rights of any holder or owner of a leasehold interest in any oil, coal rights, asphalt, or mineral which have been assented to by act of Congress; but all such interests shall continue unimpaired hereby and shall be assured by new leases from such trustees of coal or asphalt claims described therein by application to the trustees within six months after the ratification of this agreement, subject, however, to payment of advance royalties herein provided for. All leases under this agreement shall include the coal or asphaltum, or other mineral, as the case may be, in or under nine hundred and sixty acres, which shall be in a square as nearly as possible, and shall be for thirty years. The royalty on coal shall be fifteen cents per ton of two thousand pounds on all coal mined, payable on the twenty-fifth day of the month next succeeding that in which it is mined. Royalty on asphalt shall be sixty cents per ton, payable same as coal. Provided, That the Secretary of the Interit r may reduce or advance royalties on coal and asphalt when he deems it for the best interests of the Choctaws and Chickasaws to do so. No royalties shall be paid, except into the United States Treasury as herein provided. All lessees shall pay on each coal or asphalt claim at the rate of one hundred dollars per annum, in advance, for the first and second years; two hundred dollars per annum, m advance, for the third and fourth years, and five hundred dollars for each succeeding year thereafter. All such payments shall be treated as advanced royalty on the mine oi- claim on which they are made, and shall be a credit as royalty when each said mine is developed and operated, and its production is in excess of such guaranteed annual advance payments, and all persons having coal leases must pay said annual advanced payments on each claim, whether developed or undeveloped: , Provided, however. That should any lessee neglect or refuse to pay such advanced annual royalty for the period of sixty days after the same becomes due and payable on any lease, the lease on which default is made shall become null and void, and the royalties paid in advance thereon shall then become and be the money and property of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. In surface, the use of which is reserved to present coal operators, shall be included such lots in town as are occupied by lessees' houses, either occupied by said lessees' employees, or as offices or warehouses. Childs's Exhibit W. Affidavit of J. D. Davis. United States of America, Atoka County, Choctaw Nation: I, J. D. Davis, being duly sworn, say that I am a resident and citizen of the Choctaw Nation; that I have been over a portion of the right of way of the Dennison and North- ern Railway Company in the Chickasaw Nation; that I was over said right of way in the latter part of June or on the 1st of July, 1895; that at said time said company hod started a construction of their railway; that at said time I saw 12 or 15 miles of ssid right of way cross sectioned and the timber cleared therefrom, and that said road was being constructed toward the coal field. ^ J. D. Davis. United States op America, Atoka County, Choctaw Nation: J. D. Davis, being duly sworn, upon his oath, says that the statements above made are true. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 2d day of November, A. D. 1895. ■ [seal.] Gbokgb D. Moulton, Notary Public. 40 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. Childs's Exhibit X. Proposed provision of law to cover the case of the Ford and Childs' leases, as suggested in the statement of Mr. Edward C. Wright, above. Sec. . That the consent of the United States is hereby given to the following described leases of coal rights, which citizens of the Choctaw Nation have made to James M. Ford, now of the Territory of Arizona, and Newton B. Childs, of the State of Missouri, copies of which leases, two in number, have been filed and deposited with the Secretary of the Interior, namely: First. A lease bearing date the ninth day of January, anno Domini eighteen hundred and ninety-two, between Henry Breedlove, James D. Davis, and David W. Hodges, citizens of the Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, of the one part, and James M. Ford, then of Dennison, T-exas (but now of the Territory of Arizona), and Newton B. Childs, of Kansas City, Missouri, of the other part, recorded in the clerk's office of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, March twenty-fourth, eighteen hundred and ninety-two, in record book numbered one, pages five hundred and eighty-nine to five hundred and ninety-three, inclusive. Second. A lease bearing date the thirteenth day of July, eighteen hundred and ninety-two, between Henry Breedlove, James D. Davis, David W. Hodges, E. N. Wright, John C. Davis, and Mrs. M. A. Smallwood, citizens of the Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, of the one part, and James M. Ford, then of Dennison, Texas (but now of the Territory of Arizona), and Newton B. Childs, of Kansas City, Missouri, of the other part, recorded in the clerk's office of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, July fourteenth, eighteen hundred and ninety-two, in record book num- bered one, pages five hundred and ninety-eight to six hundred and two, inclusive. Third. That all the royalties of said leases shall be paid as the Secretary of the Interior may direct, for the use and benefit of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in the fol- lowing proportions, that is to say, that three-fourths of said royalties for the use and benefit of the Choctaw Nation, and one-fourth of said royalties for the use and benefit of the Chickasaw Nation. Fourth. All acts, laws, and regulations inconsistent herewith, or in any maimer changing the terms of, or invalidating, the said leases shall not apply thereto. Childs' Exhibit Y. Report of Mr. Arthur Winslow, mining engineer and geologist. CoALGATB, Ind. T., September 16, 1899. Beeckinkidge Jones, Esq., First Vice-President Mississippi Valley Trust Co., St. Louis, Mo. Dear Sih: I submit herewith the report of my reconnoissance of the coal area west of Coalgate, Ind. T., tributary to the line of the proposed St. Louis, Oklahoma and Southern Railway. Your letter of instructions of September 12 was received by me the evening of the 13th, and in planning my inspection I was controlled by the following ideas expressed in your letter: (1) That you wished to know how far west of Coalgate there extend seams of coal of 3 feet or more in thickness and so located as to be suited to economical mining. (2) That you are exceedingly anxious to have at least a preliminary report at your meeting in New York on the 21st instant, and would be pleased to have me make out the best report I can by that time. (3) That you expect my report to be only supplemental to the drilling you are having done, and expect a report based on geologic conditions, embodying conclusions as to whether those conditions will reasonably warrant you in expecting to find marketable coal within 15 miles of the projected survey. Up to the time of receiving your letter I was, as you know, ignorant of the nature and scope of the work before me, and was hence able to make no special preparation. Had I known m advance, and had there been time to have collected maps and other results of Government and private work the outcome would have been more satisfac- tory to me and also to you. As it was, I deemed it best to proceed as best I could. Thanks to Mr. Chapman and his associates I was able to learn a great deal and their guidance over the country proved invaluable. ' FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 41 The lack of a topographic map, or, in fact, of a reliable map of any kind, was the principal obstacle to rapid or accurate work. I proceeded to Mr. Chapman's camp at Oconee the night of the 13th and from that point made three excursions during the next three days as follows: (1) A trip over the country to the southwest of Oconee to determine the limits of the coal-bearing formation in that direction. (2) A trip to the northwest, to learn something of the extent and structure of the coal formation in that direction. (3) A trip to the northeast, to trace the connection with the coal fields developed near Coalgate. The small sketch map accompanying this report shows the approximate location of different points visited, and also in a general way the boundaries of different formations. THE OCCURRENCES OF COAL. Beginning in the east, in the vicinity of Lehigh and Coalgate, there is a large and extensively developed coal field tapped by the Missouri, Kansas and Texas Railway. The coal bed principally worked is about 4 feet thick. It is a good bituminous coal, about the same character as other Indian Territory coals near McAlester and Krebs, but perhaps somewhat higher in sulphur and not found to be of so good coking qualities. Its outcrop line follows very nearly the line of the railway between Lehigh and Coal- gate, with an easterly dip, but just north of Coalgate it bends sharply back, around and over an anticlinal flexure and assumes a nearly due southwesterly direction and a northwesterly dip of about 10°. Above this coal bed the deeper shafts of this camp encounter another coal bed from 16 to 20 inches thick and from 40 to 80 feet higher. At Hickory Hill, south of Lehigh, another coal bed about 4 feet thick is reported, which may be as much as 1,000 feet below the Lehigh bed. This has, liow- ever, not been worked extensively and appears to be irregular in thickness, according to reports. Lack of time prevented my visiting this locality. Proceeding westward along recurving outcrop line of the Coalgate coal bed, the last opening now operating is at the Perry mine. Here I measured the coal, and found the thickness to be 4 feet full, and the dip 14° N. 75° W. (mag.). Following is the section of the bed: 6' 6' X 4'+ Shale— Red and Yellow Shale -Black Coal— Bony Coal— Good Clay About 2 miles farther southwest, in the direction of the strike of this outcrop, strip pits have been opened, about where shown on the sketch map, and test pits have been sunk still half a mile farther west. There is thus practically no doubt of the extension of this bed on this dip to these points, and the topography and geologic structure indi- cate the continuation of the same basin at least a mile or two beyond. At Nixon, a few miles to the northwest, are reported discoveries of coal, and a Mr. Davis, who prospected much of the Lehigh-Coalgate country, personally told Mr. Chap- man that he exposed about 4 feet of coal at a point near one-fourth mile north of the post-office. This pit has long since caved in, and only small "knife edges" of the coal were seen by me in the banks of an adjacent branch. Mr. Davis' reputation for truth- fulness is, however, good, and the rocks and structure here permit the conclusion that coal may be here. About 2 miles west of Nixon, on the Martin Charleston farm, coal is reported to have been struck in a well, but this report- could not be confirmed. It is not incompatible with the geologic conditions. Immediately south of this well, at Raymond Plum- mer's house, a drill hole is reported to have been sunk a depth of "101 feet without striking coal. This does not oppose the idea of coal in the Charleston well, as the rocks here dip toward the north and the underlying sandstone crop out. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 4 42 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. At Oconee coal is reported to have been struck in a pit in the town, in the wheel pi at the mill, and at other points. The first drill hole was put down by Mr. Chapma: here, and 3 feet of coal was struck at a depth of 45 feet, as follows: 334' ,3 X 1' Slate— Black Coal Clay Another hole, sunk 400 yards to the northeast, was down 143 feet at the time of mj leaving. This indicates that the coal here dips at least 15° in that direction. At Jamison's, on the "F Ranch," coal is reported in wells and in shafts, at depths o: about 28 feet, and about 31 inches thick. About a quarter of a mile northwest of therf it is exposed in the bed of a branch, and was dug into and measured by me. It waj found to be from 30 to 33 inches thick, and of good quality. The upper half was some- what soft and friable, but the lowest bench was very hard and compact. Very littlt pyrite or sulphur was seen. The coal is here nearly fiat, or with a slight southward dip. It is in a good position and locality for stripping. It is overlain by a drab shale and some slate. About 2 miles south of Jessie is a cropping of coal exposing the following section, This is shown in the bank of a branch, and dips 10° N. (mag.). 6' 3' 12' 3' ^ Clay and Slate Coal— Soft Coal— Hard-with Traces of Pyrite Clay Shale At other points about Stonewall and elsewhere in this northern section of our area are reports of findmgs of coal, mostly of only a few inches thickness, however. The above are, however, the principal ones, and the only ones that could be located and inspected m the time available. In the southern portion, on what is known as Ash Plats, coal is reported, but Mr. Chapman has been unable to find any one who could guide him to the precise locality, and there is considerable doubt as to there being any good foundation for the report. Large thicknesses of black shale and slate are exposed in this neighborhood, and a bed of coal is quite possible here, but it is too near the limestone for such bed to be the same as the Lehigh coal. STRUCTURE AND CORRBLATION8. The general geologic structure of the area is expressed on the sketch map by the diagonal lines running from southeast to southwest. The limestone formation is the lowest, and higher rocks are encountered proceeding from it toward the northeast. The change from the coal-bearing shales and sandstones to the limestone is abrupt and well defined, and the position of this line is of great importance and significance. It shows that the coal series which extends from Arkansas westward through Harta- horne. Savanna, and Kiowa, to Coalgate and Lehigh and beyond, is here sharply terminated or deflected toward the north and that no coal is to be looked for in that direction. Though these larger features of structure are plainly marked and easily defined, it is different with the details of structures of the coal series. In Arkansas and the I'lvja (jiviijiZijiu TitiBJiie. 4:0 eastern part of the Ten-itory the rocks are strongly flexed and are thrown into sharp folds, producing well-defined basins and anticlinal arches, the limits of which can be easily traced. Here, however, the flexures are not abrupt, but are of the nature of undulations which can not be recognized and traced without careful detailed mapping. Such flexures exist, however, and they are sufiicient to throw the coal into basins separated by barren areas. In the country marked as "Coal area," between Perry, Nixon, Oconee, Jessie, and north of these, there is probably a series of basins something like this: Their distribution could not be defined in the time at my disposal, but they should be carefully mapped, preferably in advance of any detailed prospecting of this field. From such observations as I was able to make it is probable that the coal of the Perry slope and of the strip pits to the west is the same as that reported at Nixon, but in different basins, separated by a barren strip between. The coal at Oconee and that ■ at Jemison's is doubtless the same, but is probably a lower coal than the Perry bed, and may be the same as the Hickory Hill coal south of Lehigh. The coal south of Jessie may be the same as that at Jemison's, but, if so, it has become thinner. The rocks about Stonewall must be much lower in the series, and the Coalgate coals can hardly be expected to extend that far. With reference to the question of workable coal accessible to your railway, I have sketched on the map a suggestion for a branch line. This would lead directly to the nearest -and best defined area of the Coalgate coal, and the Jemison and Oconee coals could be reached by spurs. As your market for these coals would be toward the south, this branch would be in the right direction. Beyond the coal area it would pass through a good farming country, and beyond this, close to the manganese and iron ores, of which you already know. In conclusion, I would say that, though further study and investigation would be preferable before deciding matters involving such large expenditures, in a case such as this seems to be, where quick action is necessary, I think the probabilities of a large business are sufiicient to justify the construction indicated. Yours, very truly, Arthur Winslow, Mining Engineer and Oeologist. ViNiTA, Ind; T., Tuesday, November IS, 1906. The committee met at the rooms of the Vinita Commercial Club, at 11.30 a.m. Present: Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming (chairman), Long, Brandegee, and Teller. The Chairman. Gentlemen, this is a committee which has been appointed by the United States Senate, in view of the extraordinary 44 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. situation which exists in the Indian Territory, especially in regard to the relation of the Government with the Five Civilized Tribes, and we are visiting you for the purpose of obtaining such information as may be accessible, and arriving at conclusions based on that information, and reporting those conclusions to the Senate of the United States as a possible basis for legislative action. _ We find it necessary to economize time as much as possible, because the entire membership of the committee realizes that w-ith the impor- tant questions before us, and the limited time at our disposal, we can at best ftly skim the surface. We have only about three weeks to devote to this work, and we earnestly desire that every moment of that time be employed profitably in the interest of the whole people of the Indian Territory. To secure that end we shall have to avoid all social functions, as it is our desire to give our undivided attention to the business that calls us here in an honest efl'ort to arrive at just and sane and right conclusions for the benefit of all the people of the Indian Territory. We are ignorant, in a great measure, of those special things which might interest the people of this or any other particular community. We are here to find out, and to that end we have extended a particu- lar invitation through the press that people whose interests are in- volved shall attend upon the committee and present those interests. Doubtless you people here in this section of the Territory have con- sidered carefully the matters you wish to call to the attention of the committee. Our earnest hope is that, in order to get along as rapidly and as efficiently as possible, these matters may be presented clearly and as concisely and briefly as will be consistent with their due and proper presentation. This afternoon, immediately after lunch, we propose to begin and proceed as rapidly as we can, with a due regard for the importance of the interests involved, to dispatch our work here in Vinita; and we invite you, either through consultation among yourselves, or other- wise, to be prepared immediately after lunch to present for the con- sideration of the committee some one or more of the various matters in which you are interested. I understand from the president of your club that you will be at that time prepared. Senator Teller. I think you had better say that we can't hear too many people on any one matter. The Chairman. Yes, we hope these matters will be presented as concisely as possible, and, where many people are interested in the same matter, we hope you will select as few people as possible to pre- sent that matter to the committee, because m a hearing of this kind there is otherwise likely to be confusion. Mr. Kiddle, can you say what particular interest it will be convenient to present immediately on our convening at 1.30 o'clock? Mr. Seymour Riddle. I do not know at this moment, Mr. Chair- man. I have not talked over the matter with the other members of the club, but we will get together and talk it over and have something ready. I am not sure, and would not like to say offhand, but I think that probably we will wish to present the subject of the oil and gas industry, and the rules and conditions prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. I do not know that that will be what we will wish to present, but I can say this, that if nothing else will be ready that will be ready. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 45 Senator Long. That will be at half past one ? Mr. Riddle. Now, I want every gentleman who is in the room, and who is on the programme to present anything, to remain in the room after adjournment, and also, if there are are any Indian citizens — and I see there is — I ask them also to remain. Senator Long. I would inquire as to what other subjects will be brought before us. You may be able to give us that information ? Mr. Reddle. The removal of the restrictions on the sale of land, and the question of schools, and the lands in the Choctaw Nation. There is a good many questions that will be brought before you. Senator Long. Well, that question witii reference to the Choctaw Nation — that is a matter that wiU not be presented to us imtil we reach McAllister or Muscogee. Mr. Riddle. Well, the united representatives of the commercial clubs took action on that subject something like two or three weeks ago, and there are two or three representatives here, who are prepared to present that subject. I am not sure, however, that the gentleman who will present the coal-land proposition is here. The Chairman. Our idea was that that subject would be more likely to be presented at McAllister, for that would we thought be the best place to go into that matter. Senator Long. That is right, but the oil and gas questions are matters that are directly pertaining to you here. Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; and they will probably be presented this afternoon, the first thing. Mr. SwAETZ. I win say that the gentleman who is subject of the removal of the restrictions is Mr. Coombs, of Ardmore, but he has notified us that he will not be here; therefore that matter will not be presented by him here; but he says that he will be glad of an oppor- tunity to present it when the committee reaches Ardmore. The Rev. Mr. Eyans, of Ardmore, will be here by noon, and also Col. Shepherd, of South McAllister, who will present the subject of the sale of the surface of coal lands as well as the question of the sale of surplus lands, and at least one other subject. At any rate these three that I have named will be taken up. Mr. Riddle. We had a gentleman to take Mr. Crew's place on the subject of the removal of restrictions on the Cherokees by blood, and he is ready to present that subject or matter at any time. The Chairman. Well, we will adjourn to half -past one, and I wish everyone to be prompt and be on hand at that time, for the session will begin inunediately. The committee took a recess till 1.30 p. m., and then reassembled. The Chairman. As I stated this morning, we find that we wiU have an immense amount of work to do, involvmg many matters, and it is our desire to gain all the information that we can possibly gather during the limited time that is at our disposal at each place. We wUl be glad to proceed now. I notice that the president of the Commercial Club, acting, I suppose, with the approval of others present, who had matters to present to the committee, proposes to occupy one hour this afternoon — say from 1.30 to 2.30. I do not wish to be understood, nor does any member of this committee desire to be understood, as limiting the time of any person or any subject that may be inquired into to one hour or to any other fixed time. The committee does not believe that the question of hours cuts much figure. But beginning 46 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. now, at 1.30, the question taken up will be the question of the restric- tions upon the alienation of lands m the Quapaw Agency, and how the question in that particular case differs from alienations or restrictions generally. i /-." Mr. Wilson. The committee will understand that the Quapaws have a treaty separate and disti'ict, and wholly disconnected from any of the treaties of the Five Civilized Tribes; that their land, and also a part of the land of the Five Civilized Tribes, is separate and dis- tinct, under a separate set of laws, differing as to their treaty rights and with different provisions as to the ahenation of lands and restric- tions upon alienation. Senator Teller. In what respect do they differ ? I know they have separate laws, but what is the difference in the question presented to us as to the other tribes ? Mr. Wilson. We will take, for instance, the Curtis Act. That does not apply to the Quapaw Agency at all. I am not very familiar with the laws up there. Let me say at the outset that the Commercial Club did not want to appear presumptuous by attempting to outline a programme, but we thought that you might want to Imow about the great mass of the people, their wants and their views. We have a sort of a programme arranged, but that programme is merely suggestive; nothmg more. Mr. Teller. Who represents the Quapaws in this hearing, if we are going into this matter ? Senator Long. The Quapaws? Senator Teller. Yes. Senator Long. They do not belong to the Five Civilized Tribes. Mr. Wilson. I desire to call your attention briefly to the Quapaw Agency. Most of the people in the Indian Territory have been attracted to the conditions that exist in the so-called Five Civilized Tribes, or the big nations, as they are known, and so have lost sight of the very peculiar conditions that exist up here in the northeastern corner of the Territory. This is comparatively a small tract of country; its area is very small compared to or with the total area of the Territory, yet it is occupied by eight separate and distinct tribes of Indians. I say tribes, and that is possibly an error, for it would be more appropriate to say "fragments of tribes." All except- ing the Quapaws in this district have been placed on allotments of land; that is, all excepting the Quapaws were placed there from Northern States. They have been brought there from Kansas and Michigan and Illinois and Ohio, and possibly some other of the Northern States. Now, Congress, in passing acts for the protection and government of the Indian Territory, have failed repeatedly to pass acts which applied to the Quapaw Agency. The Curtis bill, in its general pro- visions, does not apply to the Quapaw Agency, and most of the bills providing for the establishment of a school system and for the establishment of a survey and other matters of that nature which I might call your attention to — not one of them apply to the Quapaw Agency. I merely suggest these as indicative of the manner in which it has been neglected and overlooked. Wherever m the acts the Five Civilized Tribes have been referred to it has been done, and reference in the Curtis Act is made to them and it is for them, so the eight tribes up there in the northeast corner of the Territory FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 47 are left out, for they are not a part of the Five CiviHzed Tribes and have never been so regarded or considered by Congress. Senator Long. What are these tribes? Mr. Wilson. The Quapaws, Modocs, Shawnees, Senecas, Peorias, Ottawas, and Wyandots. Senator Long. They are all imder the jurisdiction of the Quapaw Agency, are they not ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; but each one of these tribes, or rather rem- nants of tribes, for that is all they are, have been located on lands in the Quapaw Agency under a number of different treaties, and they have been brought to the Indian Territory from different parts of the country at different times. Now, heretofore in the passage of the acts for the allotment of land in the Quapaw Agency district it has been necessary for all of the people to get together as nearly as may be to consult together and appoint a committee to go to Washington to suggest to the legislators the necessity of recognizing the difference between the Indian Territory proper and the Quapaw Agency. Many acts which were passed for the protection and allotment of land for the Indians in the Five Civilized Tribes never did apply to the Quapaw Agency land, and that is where the trouble arises. If these acts had been made applicable to all of the lands in the Territory, it would have been all right, but they did not. That is the almost universal way that things have been done. Senator Tellee. I think that is correct in all cases except in the case of a few acts which applied to the whole of the Indian Territory. Senator Long. Did any of them apply excepting special reference ? Mr. Wilson. I think not, excepting by special reference in a few acts; that is to say, a few acts applied to the whole of the Indian Territory. Most of the laws passed applied specially to the Indian Territory, or I should say, applied to the Five Civilized Tribes. Of course, I think that an act passed to apply to the whole of the Terri- tory would as a matter of course apply as well to the Quapaw Agency. Now, the disadvantages of this course are apparent. For example, we have no road system, nor is there any provision for the establish- ment of a public road system or roads of any kind in the Quapaw Agency. Senator Teller. Will not the lands in the Quapaw Agency be in the new State and will they not be governed by the laws of the new State? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; they are all included in the boundaries of the new State. Senator Teller. Then it is a question, as far as the roads are concerned, for the new State to deal with, and not a question for the General Government. Mr. Wilson. I presume so, unless you should take the position — unless the position should be taken by the Department that question of the relinquishment of land for new roads was a c^uestion or a matter under the control of the Government, owing to the tact that the restric- tion was on this land at this time. If it should present itself in that shape, it might be a question for Congress to legislate on. I don't know that that would be the fact, but it might be a question that would come up or present itself in that way. As it is, there are no roads there at all, excepting such as have been established by mutual consent among the owners of land; but there are no roads established on section lines 43 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. or where Government surveys locate them. Now that is the condition of the road question. . . Another thing that I desire to call your attention to is the matter of legislation on the school question; but that is a matter that will probably be properly provided for. Well, I may say that it is reason- ably sure to be provided for. I will call your attention to the fact that the act in this behalf passed by Congress applies only to the Five Civilized Tribes or nations, and does not apply to the Quapaw Agency at all. Senator Long. The act making all citizens of the Indian Territory- all Indians in the Territory citizens of the United States, includes these eight tribes, does it not ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; under that act they will be citizens of the United Spates. Now in order to Senator Teller. Was any part of the fund provided for ia the enabling act to apply to the Quapaw's too? Mr. Wilson. I ain not prepared to say it would apply. A Voice. Yes; it does. Senator Long. Do you mean the $5,000,000 appropriation? The CiAiRMAN. Yes. There is the Curtis Act before you. That is provided for in the Statehood act. Mr. Wilson. Ihe location of the various Indian tribes on this land, and the places where they came from, and their various s'ages of civilization at the time they came there, compared wi^h their evolu- tion and Stale of civilization now, show that they are in advance of the other tribes in the Indian Territory. In fact, we have a very small percentage of Indian blood, or "full blood," as it is called, among the residents of the Quapaw Agency. The most of the resi- dents of that agency are from Kansas and Missouri and surrounding States, but noiwithstanding that condition, the restriction on the alienation of the Cherokee land has been much less and for a less term of years than ic has been upon the land in the Quapaw Agency. The restriction on the land in the Cherokee Nation, as I understand it, applies to the sale of the land and that restriction applies for five years from the time of the issue of the patent. That is the way I understand it is in the case of most of the Indians, but in the Quapaw Agency it is for a term of 25 years from and after the issuance of the patents. Now, we have another restrictive condition, and it is this — and I believe it applies to all the tribes, but I don't know — but among the Miami, Peoria, and Quapaw tribes they have patents issued to them with restrictions, but not alienation, and the others have simple certifi- cates for patents issued to them, which provides that after the expira- tion of twenty-five years a patent will be issued by the Government. Now, if the restrictions were removed from the lands of the Indians in the Indian Territory, or any part of it, some provision would have to be made providing that an estate in fee simple should pass to the holder or purchaser of the land without issuance of title or patent, or else a provision made that patents be issued to parties holding certificates. Now certain of the Indians of the Quapaw Agency, representing various tribes, are here, and desire to appear before the committee, and wish to take up the question of the removal of these restrictions. Senator Teller. There is not such a large amount of land per capita there as there is among the other tribes ? Mr, Wilson. The Peorias and the Miamis are alloted 200 acres each. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES, 49 and the Quapaws are alloted 240 acres a piece, and the Senecas, Wyandottes, and Ottawas and Shawnees have 80 acres a piece, and the the Modocs have 90 acres each. The Chairman. These allotments consume the entire Territory? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; with the exception of a small fractional part. The Chairman. There is no land there excepting land that is allotted ? Is that what you mean ? Mr. Wilson. None excepting some surpluses. There is a little surplus amounting to about 5,000 acres, all told. The Chairman. Is that scattered around among the different tribes ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; but it is mostly in the Quapaw tribe of Indians. Senator Beandegee. Can you give us the number on the rolls of each of these tribes? Mr. Wilson. No, sir; I do not believe I can. Senator Brandegee. Of course it can be obtained from the records. Mr. Wilson. I can't state the exact number in each tribe, but in the whole eight tribes there is 1,680 members — that is, in all the eight tribes. Patents have been issued to these Indians on an average for about sixteen years, and these patents provide that the restrictions on alienation should not be removed until a period of twenty-five years had elapsed from the issuance of the patent. Senator Long. Does the legislation provided by the Curtis bill remove the restrictions — that is, does it not provide that in certain cases the conditions of the patent as to restriction of alienation may be removed by the Secretary of the Interior on application made in that behalf? Mr. Wilson. No, s'r; it does not; but it has been removed in several cases by private acts passed for that purpose. Senator Long. Well, I understand that; but does not the general act providing for the removal of restrictions by the Secretary on appli- cation apply to these tribes also ? Mr. Wilson. No, sir; it does not. The Chairman. There is no way it can be removed excepting by special act in individual cases? Mr. Wilson. That is the only way it can be done so far as these tribes are concerned. Senator Brandegee. About how much is the area of this reserva- tion in square miles? Mr. Wilson. About 20 miles square. It is now developing into a very valuable tract of land. It has prospects of developing into a valuable tract of land. It is fair to presume that it fairly lies in the mineral district. In the northeast part of this agency there has been developed valuable mines of lead and zinc. Now, there is another thing I wish to say, and it is this: In the Quapaw tribe there is proba- bly more full-blood Indians in that tribe than there probably is in any other tribe in the Indian Territory; certainly more than in any tribe in the Quapaw Agency — that is, the proportion or per cent of full bloods is higher. Senator Long. What tribe is that ? Mr. Wilson. The Quapaw tribe. Now, the conditions that sur- round them and their ability to handle their land and dispose of it 50 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. should be distinguished and recognized by others, and in arriving at a just conclusion as to their abihty in that behalf their civilization, or the stage of civilization at which they have arrived, should be taken into account. This should be considered also with reference to all the Indians in the Quapaw Reservation. That is all I desire to say, gentlemen, and I thank you. If the committee will permit me, I have some maps here ot the agency that I desire to submit [handing same to committee]. The following letter was placed on file: ViNiTA, Ind. T., November 10, 1906. Senators Clark, of Wyoming (chairman), Long, Beandegee, Teller, and Claek, of Montana, Select Committee on Affairs in Indian Territory, United States Senate. Gentlemen: I respectfully request your consideration of a matter in which I am personally interested, as well as a number of other persons who are similarly situated. I am the purchaser of 160 acres of land, which is located in the Ottawa Reservation (Quapaw Agency), Ind. T., through proceedings partitioning said land, in the United States court at Vinita, Hon. Joseph A. Gill, judge, presiding. These proceedings are under the law of Kansas relative to partition, put in force by act of Congress of Febru- ary 8, 1887 (24 Stats., 388), sec. 5, under which it is provided as follows: "That upon approval of the allotments provided for in this act by the Secretary of the Interior, he shall cause patents to issue therefor in the name of the allottees, which patents shall be of the legal effect, and declare that the United States does and will hold the land thus allotted for the period of twenty-five years in trust for the sole use and benefit of the Indian to whom such allotment shall have been made, or, in case of his decease, of his heirs according to the laws of the State or Territory where such land is located, and that at the expiration of such period the United States will convey the same by patent to said Indian or his heirs, as aforesaid, in fee, discharged of said trust and free of all charge or incumbrance whatsoever: Provided, That the President of the United States may in any case in his discretion extend the period. And if any conveyance shall be made of the lands set apart and allotted as herein providfed, or any contract made touching the same, before the expiration of the time above mentioned, such conveyance or contract shall be absolutely null and void: Provided, That the law of descent and partition in force in the State or Territory where such lands are situate shall apply thereto after patents therefor have been executed and delivered, except as herein otherwise provided, and the laws of the State of Kansas regulating the descent and partition of real estate shall, so far as practicable, apply to all lands in the Indian Territorv which may be allotted in severalty under the provisions of this act." The law of Kansas, as thus put in force (Comp. Laws, 1885), page 684, provides, at sec. 625, if partition can not be made it shall be appraised, and any one or more of the parties may elect to take the same at the appraisement, and the court may direct the sheriff (marshal) to make a deed to the party or parties so electing on payment to the other parties their proportion of the appraised value. Now, the case I desire to more specifically call to your attention arises under the laws above set forth, and is about as follows: Catharine Petah, an Ottawa Indian, died, leaving an allotment, which was patented to her under the said act of Congress, described as follows: N. J of the SW. { of sec. 34, Twp. 28 north. Range 23, containing 80 acres, in the Ottawa Reservation, Ind. T.; and Susie Petah, an Ottawa Indian, was patented the following land in said reservation: W. J of the SW. i of sec. 34, Twp. 28 north. Range 23 east, and died, leaving said land, which had been allotted to her under said act of Congress. Peter McCoonse et al., as a portion of the heirs, instituted a partion suit against Thomas Petah for the partition of said land (case No. 1960 in the United States court, at Vinita, Ind. T.), and after all proceedings had been had and the interests of the respective heirs found and ascertained by the court, Mary Walker, one of the heirs, who was a party to said suit, elected to take said land at its appraised value, which was $3,280. Not being able to raise this sum of money, Mary Walker applied to different persons for the purpose of borrowing it, and was finally referred to me. I did not care to make the loan, but finally agreed with her to buy the land from her at the same figure, she to put up the money to the court and make a deed from herself to me. This was done. I advanced the full amount of the purchase money, and she in turn gave me a warranty FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 51 deed, and the marshal executed to her a partition deed, which was approved by the court. At the same time I executed an agreement on my part to sell this land to Mary Walker at any time within six months, provided she would pay me a profit of $400. Otherwise there was no further obligation on me. After the partition deed was approved by the court, I, believing that everything connected with this transaction was fair, and that the land had sold for all it was fairly worth, and without even taking the precaution to put the partition on record, sent it to the honorable Secretary and asked him to approve it, at the same time sending him certified copies of the court records. This was in the summer of 1903, and I was advised by the Secretary of the Interior that my deed (that is, the deed to Mary Wal- ker) would not be approved, for the reason the deed was not made in accordance to his regulations pertaining to the sale of lands belonging to deceased Indians. The act of Congress of May 27, 1902, section 7, in part provides as follows: "That the adult heirs of any deceased Indian to whom a trust or other patent con- taining restrictions upon alienation has been or shall be issued for lands allotted to him may sell and convey the lands inherited from such decedent,; but in case of minors, their interests shall be sold only by a guardian duly appionted by the proper court upon the order of such court, made upon petition filed by the guardian;, but all such conveyances shall be subject to the approval of the Secretray of the Interior. " * * * In accordance to said law, the Secretary of the Interior made his rules for the sale of land of deceased Indians, and claims that his jurisdiction is exclusive and that the deed which was made by the United States marshal was void, and therefore refused to approve the same or to return it to me. However, I presented the matter later on and by the assistance of Hon. L. F. Parker, jr., and one or two other gentlemen who pre- sented the case to the Secretry in person, I was enabled to get the deed approved by the Secretary on December 12, 1904, but the same was not returned to me, but was retained by the Interior Department for investigation, as I understand. Thus the matter stood, and in the meantime a number of investigations were made; but I know that no question can be made regarding the good faith of the transaction on my part, as I had no knowledge of the case whatever, and bought the land only at the solicita,tion of Mary Walker. So far as I am advised np suggestion has ever been made that the partition proceedings were irregular or that any fraud was committed or that the interests of the heirs were not properly protected; but I believe the sole con- tention is that the United States court could not make the sale to Mary Walker and that the deed which was made under the order of said court was void. In the meantime the heirs had received the money, and on August 25, 1906, as I am advised, the Secretary again considered this matter and disapproved the deed to Mary Walker, and advised me further that appropriate steps would be taken to enable suit to be instituted to set aside all conveyances, including the one to me, covering said land. It is conceded on the part of the honorable Secretary of the Interior that the court could legally partition the land, but that it could not legally make a sale of the land as an incident to the partition proceedings. It is a subject on which lawyers differ; but I do not feel that I have wronged any one, nor do I feel that the Indians would be wronged in case appropriate legislation was had to approve this deed as well as the one from Mary Walker to me. I wish to say again that had I had the slightest doubt regarding the matter or that the deed would not have been approved by the Secretary I should have acted differently. But I did not believe that with the judgment of the United States court approving the deed that the Secretary would disapprove it, especially when the law expressly gives the court jurisdiction in partition proceedings, and in no where is that law repealed. A number of cases of this character have arisen from the sale of land in the Quapaw Reservation, and I believe that without doubt the land has in every case sold for what it was reasonably worth, and that it would be a great wrong and hardship on the pur- chasers, most of whom are poor men, for this great Government of ours to permit them to be deprived of their lands under the circumstances. I would respectfully ask that your honorable committee cause proper legislation to be enacted which will protect purchasers who have bought land under partition proceed- ings in the Quapaw Agency, Indian Territory. Respectfully submitted. '^ D. H. Wilson. The Chairman. Is there any other person present who desires to V anvthine on this matter? say anything on this matter? g2 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. STATEMENT OF MB. JOHN W. EABLEY. Mr Earlet. I am an Ottawa Indian of the Quapaw Agency, and my post-office is Miami. I desire to introduce to your attention the condition of the people in the Ottawa tribe of Indians under the Quapaw Agency. We formerly were from the State of Kansas, and after the war— after the rebellion— the Government persuaded us to purchase a httle tract of land or a reseryation up here. We were located then in Kansas in what is now called Ottawa, in Frank- lin County, Kans. In 1862 the Ottawa Indians made a treaty with the Government of the United States. At that time, in 1862, there was a provision made in the treaty that the Ottawa Indians would become citizens of the United States. It was agreed that the Ottawa Indians after the ratification of that treaty would become and be citi- zens of the United States and that they would be declared citizens of the United States after five years. Now, that is what that treaty said to the Ottawa band of Indians. Now, at that time, just at the closing of the war, and after the war in 1866, commissioners were sent out from Washington and they went all through among the Indian tribes getting some of them to make a contract or treaty for the purpose of buying homes elsewhere, so the Ottawa Indians and my people, they made supplement treaty with the Government in 1866 and 1867, which provides in that treaty, the Ottawas their citi- zenship was extended two years from that time in order to enable them, the Ottawa Indians, to emigrate and occupy the little reserva- tion which the Government allowed them to purchase from the Shaw- nee tribe of Indians in the Quapaw Agency, which was called the Eastern Shawnees. At the time this contract expired, the treaty, the Ottawa Indians then were declared citizens of the United States in 1869, but not- withstanding that the Government department has all the time since then been controlling the band of what they call the Ottawa Indians and dealing with us just the same as it does with any other band of Indians, and just the same as if we were not citizens of the United States. It seems to me that is a funny condition of affairs, for if we are citizens of the United States we should be treated as citizens. Senator Long. How many is there of your band or tribe? Mr. Eakley. We rather believe that the Ottawa Indians are not a band — not a band of Indians in the sense that a tribe of Indians is understood, having dissolved the tribal relations, for the tribal rela- tion has been dissolved and there is no more a tribe of Indians. In that treaty there was some trouble occurred. In that Quapaw Agency about the land which was purchased by and for these Ottawa Indians in that Quapaw Agency reservation. It was purchased for them as a reservation and paid for. It is a small reservation that was purchased and paid for, and the other Indians made a complaint to the Indian department that they didn't want any band of Indians to be in there in that reservation who were citizens of the United States. They complained that they did not want any such a band of Indians to come on to this reservation which they were induced to sell to the Government and to the Ottawa Indians, and under that head the Attorney-General of the United States decided at the time that the Ottawa Indians were made citizens of the United States and he decided that they could not be disturbed because they were citi- zens — native citizens. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 53 We are inclined to believe we are not altogether subject to the rule which requires sales to be submitted to the Interior Department for rulings; that is, in regard to the sale of inherited land or other land. Now, the point is that under the treaty we are citizens and have been for many years, yet under this ruling we were controlled as if we were not citizens of the United States. Now, there is a ruling made by the Interior Department that when they are old men — when they sell their old land or inherited land — that is funny. Of course. Now I'll just tell you what it was — it is about the sale of old land or inherited land. When that land is sold under the "ruling they are — the Ottawa Indians — citizens of the United States, as the Attorney- General says — when they sell that kind of land they are only allowed to draw, under that ruling, $10 a month from the money got from the sale of this inherited land. Now, to my mind, that is a rule that my people have a right to object to, and we do object to it. They put us in the same class with these other Indians who are not citizens of the United States; and while the Attorney-General says we are citi- zens, they treat us as if we were not citizens of the United States, and we are not able to help ourselves. At that time when the treaty was made, in 1866 and 1867 — previous to that time there was a bill passed, what we called a "general severalty bill" — I mean what is some- times called the Dawes bill. Well, we simply came in under that bill, and then we petitioned the Government of the United States to divide this land up, for it was held in common, you know. Now, there was 14,500 acres of land that the Ottawas had purchased from the Government, for we were a small band of Indians at that time. Now, under that law it made us citizens of the United states again, and that made it twice that under the law we were made citizens, and still the Interior Department kept treating us the same way as if we were not citizens, so it didn't seem to make much difiference what the law said. At the same time, under the rulings of the Department, we are inclined to believe that the Department has no jurisdiction in the matter, but it goes ahead as if it had, and we have to submit. It is a funny situation. Still we thiak that the Departnaent has no jurisdiction over our band of Indians. We want to know where we are at, you know, and we think we ain't where we ought to be. We are citizens. The law says we are, and the Attorney-General says we are, and the Interior Departmeent don't say anything about it, but -treats us as if we were not citizens. Now, I want it understood that I am appearing here only in behalf of the Ottawa band of Indians. I don't appear here for anyone else. Now, your honors, we believe that this restriction about the sale of our lands should be removed, and I am here trying to see if it can't be removed. That is what we ask here, and that is what we believe we should have. We have only a little fraction of land down here, and we bought it and paid for it, and if we see fit to dispose of it or sell it we should be allowed to do so. We believe we can sell our land and do as we see fit with the money or whatever we get for it, for we believe we are able and competent to manage our own affairs, as the Government has made us citizens of the United States, and when they said that we were citizens — when they made us citizens of the United States they must have meant that we were fit for citizens, else they would nofl have made us citizens, and when they made us citizens they placed 54 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. US on equal footing with the white people, and they are allowed to manage their own affairs. Now, here is a little sketch made in 1888, which I will show you, and which speaks for itself, and it shows the location of the band of Indians in the location where we live. Senator Long. Do you want that put in here? It is on page 91 in the report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of 1887. Mr. Earley. Yes; I want that to be read, and I offer it to you, for it speaks for itself. I will read it. The Peorias, Miamis, Wyandottes, and Ottawas are practically white people, a part of them having farmhouses and barns that will compare very favorably with their white neighbors over the border in the States of Kansas and Missouri. They nearly all have good farms and are good average farmers. Senator Long. That was in 1887? Mr. Earley. Yes, sir. This was after the division of this land in this small reservation of 14,500 acres. After that land was divided there was a small surplus of the land still remaining unsold. We have made several efforts before the Government or the Department to help us in having this land sold or disposed of in some way, and now we are asking you to help us as the representatives of the Govern- ment or the Government, and I am here as the representative of our people. We do wish to have this surplus of land of something like a thousand acres, more or less, which is not sold disposed of in some way. Senator Teller. Do you mean that is the surplus after allotment? Mr. Earley. Yes, sir; after we received the allotment there was still a surplus of about a thousand acres. We want to have that sur- plus sold under some instructions. We want to have a bill passed to sell it to the highest bidder, the same as any other reservation has been sold— in the same way that it was sold in the case of the Peorias and the Miamis. If it is sold right, so there will be a good title, it would bring a good price. We have been offered sometimes to have it appraised. Some parties offered to have it sold — to buy it if it could be sold; but we are opposed to any contract to sell this land to individuals unless they pay right for it. Now we ask the Govern- ment directly to have this land sold under some act The Chairman. That land, I suppose, lies in small tracts? Mr. Earley. Well, it is in fractions, and some of it hes in bodies. Maybe there is 160 acres, more or less, in a body. I don't know, but it is perhaps that much in a body. There are a good many fractions, of course, along the river banks, btit it is considered good land. I don't know about it myself, but mineral men say that there is very good mineral there. Senator Long. You are an Ottawa ? Mr. Earley. Yes, sir. Senator Long. How many Ottawas are there ? , Mr. Earley. There is something like 168 on the roll. Senator Long. Not with the idea or purpose of in any manner reflecting on the other tribes, but as you have put in part of this • report m reference to the Peorias and Wyandottes and Ottawas it might be well for the committee to hear what is said in the same report m reference to the other tribes. It says : "The Senecas are not as industrious, etc." Now, that is what is said in this report about some of the other tribes of Indians. Mr. Earley. Yes, sir; that is about right, I guess. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 55 The Chairman. What is your age? Mr. Earley. I am past 72. The Chairman. What is your blood 1 Mr. Earley. Well, I believe I am a quarter either French or some other kind of white. Senator Long. And the rest is Ottawa ? Is that right ? Mr. Earley. Yes; the rest was Ottawa. Well, you might say that I am a Potawatomi, but I don't claim it. Senator Teller. Where were you born? Mr. Earley. In Ohio. Senator Teller. Where did you say you were born? Mr. Earley. In Kansas. I am a Kansas man. Senator Teller. Did you ever vote ? Mr. Earley. Yes, sir; I voted when I was in the army. Well, I did vote in Kansas, too. Senator Long. Not this year? Mr. Earley. No, sir. Now, if there is anything more that you want to hear about our people we have other representatives here who can tell you about it, if you want to hear them. Senator Teller. Have you a patent for your land ? Mr. Earley. We have certificates for our land. Senator Teller. But no patents ? Mr. Earley. Well, they are what we call certificates. Senator Teller. For twenty-five years ? Mr. Earley. Yes, sir; certificates only for twenty-five years. Then we are supposed to get a patent. Senator Teller. When were they issued ? Do you remember the date? Mr. Earley. Well, they were issued the same year that the land was allotted, and that I think was in 1872. I think that is the date the patent was issued. Senator Teller. Then that was after you became citizens? Mr . Earley. That is what I don' t know. - They say we are citizens — that is, Congress says so, and so does the Attorney-General, but the Department, while it does not say anything about it, treats us as if we were not citizens, so I don't know whether or not we are citizens. Now, we were declared citizens of the United States in 1869, and since that time the Attorney-General of the United States has made two decisions that we were citizens. We have not the copies of these decisions, for we have misplaced them, but the Attorney-General declared us citizens of the United States. Senator Teller. Well, as I understand you, what you want now is to sell the surplus land ? Mr. Earley. Well, yes; we want to dispose of it. Senator Teller. Do you want to dispose of the land occupied by the Indians ? Mr. Earley. Well, we would like to have the restrictions taken off our allotments — that is, if we can prove that we have been declared citizens of the United States both by Congress and the Attorney- Geiieral. The Chairman. How much of a homestead have you? Mr. Earley. Eighty acres. The Chairman. Do you want the restrictions removed from that too? 56 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Eaeley. Yes, sir. I will state here I made application a year ago while Congress was in session; I put in an application that the restrictions be taken from my allotment. The Chairman. An application to whom? Mr. Earley. To the Department, the Interior Department. I made application to have the restrictions removed from my allot- ment. I believe I sent my papers to my friend Curtis, but I don't know whether he had anythmg done with them or not. After some of my friends knew that I had made this application they came to me and said, "Would you sell your land right away?" and I said, "I will answer that question," and I did answer it. I said, "Now, look at me and my age. I am getting old, and I am hardly able to do my work. Ir I work an hour or two I am all played out, and ' I can't do work any more like I used to be able to do it, for I am getting too old. When I do two hours' work I am just exhausted and must give up." Now, this 180 acres of land — the title to this land is held by the Government — they won't give me a title to it. Now, then, while it is held that way I have no title to it at all. I am not any better off than if I did not have it at all, as far as getting any- thing out of it is concerned, and at the same time I might say that I have put all my fortune in that land, and what I have put in it I can't get out again. I have put in a whole lot of work on that place in the way of improvements, and I have tolerably good build- ings on it. Now, all that I have to show for this allotment is just simply the improvements on it. That is all, for I haven't any more real title to it that is worth anything to me than any man in this room, and if I offered it to anybody he would not buy it; he would not give a dollar an acre for it, for I haven't any title to it that is any good before the law. Now, just as soon as the Government would remove the restrictions on it, you know how much it would improve in price, for I would have a title then that would be worth some- thing, but as it is, it isn't worth anything. Senator Teller. If the" restrictions were removed it would be worth more, is that it ? Mr. Earley. Sure thing. It isn't worth anything now. Senator Teller. How much would it be increased in value? Mr. Earley. Well, from nothing up to $35 or $40 an acre. I think I could get $35 or $40 an acre for it. Now, then, I think, in my old age, I ought to be allowed to sell my land and go and buy a little place where I could live in comfort and not have so much to do. I think if I was allowed to sell it I could make good use of the money. I think I am capable of making a good use of this little money for the little while I have to live, for I am getting old and I ain't going to live very much longer. That is talking about my age, for I don't want to go out on the streets or the highways and sell this land to the highest bidder. That is not my object, but simply to get out of this land what it is actually worth; but I can't doit, for the way it is now the Government really owns this title and I want to enjoy it and know it is mine now while I am here. If I die the way it is now, my heirship will probably fight over it, and it will be divided up among them — what is left of it after the lawyers and the courts get through fighting with it; they would probably eat it up and there would not be anything left for anybody. There might be a httle left for my heirs and the lawyers would take the rest, so very little would be FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 57 divided among my relatives. Now, that is the way I feel, and while I live I would like to know for awhile that I own it and have a title to it, and if I want to sell it that is my own business, even if they do have a fight for it after I am gone. The Chairman. Have you any children? Mr. Eaeley. I have no children at all. I have had them, but my children are all dead. I have a wife and I have one grandchild, too. Now, that is about all I have to say. I think I have stated our case substantially right, and as far as my people are concerned, and anyone else in a similar fix. I hope you will consider it carefully and if you think it is anything worth while taking our case into considera- tion, I would like to see something done. Now, here is the Mr. Senator from Kansas. I am partly acquainted with you, but you don't remember me. I met you in a reunion here last fall and I shook hands with you and heard your speech, and I'll shake hands with you again. The Chairman. You heard his speech and still you shake hands with him! Senator Long. Well, shake hands with this Senator. He is from Connecticut. Mr. Earley. Is he a Senator, too ? Well, I thought he was too young for a Senator. STATEMENT OF MR. M. B. POOLEK, CHIEF OF THE OTTAWA TRIBE OF INDIANS. Senator Long. What is your post-office address? Mr. Pooler. Miami, Ind. T. Gentlemen, I come in behalf of the Ottawa tribe of Indians to present to you the wants of that Indian tribe. Although the Depart- ment of the Interior recognizes us only as Indians, we ourselves claim to be citizens of the United States, and we claim to be citizens of the United States under treaty stipulations. The majority of the tribe, nearly all of them, are self-supporting ; others, perhaps, are not. Senator Long. You are an Ottawa ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You are chief of that band or tribe ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Senator Long. How many of you are there ? Mr. Pooler. We have 168 at the present time enrolled. Senator Long. That is of the Ottawas ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And you are their chief now ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir ; I have been chief now for twelve years, and I have been connected with tribal matters ever since I was 21 years old. Senator Teller. How do you manage to be chief, if, as you say, you are a citizen of the United States ? Mr. Pooler. Our tribe elected me as chief, and the Indian agent told us that as long as we had Indian lands to deal with, or he had to deal with us as Indians, we had to have some one as head or chief that he could deal with ; he wanted some man to do business with. Senator Long. How long were you elected as chief, or how often during that time have you been elected chief? S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 5 58 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Pooler. We used to have elections regularly and elect the chief, but we have had no regular election for eight years now. Senator Long. You were elected eight years ago and you are just holding over? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Well, go ahead. Mr. Pooler. Our tribe believes that we are capable of managing our own business, and we want to have the restrictions removed from our allotments. The Chairman. Your opinion in regard to that coincides with the opinion of the last speaker; Mr. Early, I believe was his name? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you want it removed also from homesteads? Mr. Pooler. We want it removed from the whole of it. We be- lieve the Ottawas are citizens of the United States and are entitled to be treated as citizens, and we believe that they are capable of man- aging their own business the same as any other citizens of the United States are. We believe they are capable of managing their own business and looking after their own welfare, and the majority of our people, you will see by the last speaker and what he said and read to you, you will see that the majority of our people are capable of transacting their own business. Now, our tribe has very few full bloods. There is only three full bloods in our tribe any more. Senator Long. Three only out of the 160 and some odd are full bloods. Is that it ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What proportion of Indian blood have you ? Mr. Pooler. Well, I'm a half breed. I am French and Ottawa. Now, in our tribe we all talk English. The Chairman. You do? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir; we do — every one of us. You take these three full bloods, they talk some English and understand it very well, with the exception of one of them; he don't know much about English, but as far as that is concerned, he is very Intelligent and can do business for himself just about as well as any of us, and has been doing it for several years. Senator Teller. You say you all talk English— do you talk English in your families ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir; English is our language now — the language we use most all the time. Senator Long. Do the members of your tribe live on farms ? Mr. Pooler. Most of them do. I don't live on a farm; I am conducting a barber shop now in the town of Miami. The tribe wanted me to come up here and meet the committee and represent to it what we wanted done in the way of removing these restrictions from our entire allotments. We have an allotment of 80 acres now under the general severalty act of 1887. Senator Long. A lot or allotment of 80 acres ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Senator Long. In addition to the homestead ? Mr. Pooler. No, sir ; that is all we had. That is all we had. We took our allotment under the general severalty act of 1887, commonly known as the " Dawes act," and after this allotment was made, there was a residue left of 1,700 acres. Now we want some action taken by FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 59 Congress that will put us in a position to dispose of it and the money be paid out to the tribe. That is what we want. Senator Long. That is in connection with this surplus of 1,700 acres ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. We want some arrangement made to sell that land and sell it and divide the money among the tribe. Our inherited land out there is being sold and the money belonging to the heirs is put in the bank or held in some way and the Department allows them only $10 a month, which anybody knows is not sufficient to support any one man. The Chairman. That is not a great deal. Senator Teller. Well, that is a regulation of the Department, and is not embodied in a statute ; it is a departmental regulation. Mr. Pooler. Well, yes ; I think it is something the Department has put on us, but I think that it ought to be attended to, so the ones selling the land could draw the money themselves and pay off their indebtedness, or pay off the indebtedness of the deceased. Senator Long. Are any of your lands coal, oil, or gas lands? Mr. Pooler. No, sir ; not that we know of. Senator Teller. But you have some mineral land? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir ; it is supposed to be mineral land, but in the immediate vicinity of the Ottawa tribe it has never been developed. Senator Brandegee. Have your people held a public meeting and requested you or deputized you to come here and make this request ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir ; we have consulted over it, and that was the conclusion arrived at. We have made this same request on several occasions in the past. This is not the first time, for we have several times done the same thing in the past, but of course it has never had any effect. The Chairman. I understand you to say that, considering your- selves as citizens of the United States, you want the right and power to go ahead in your own way the same as other citizens do, and trans- act your own business, and if you have property you wish to have the privilege of transacting all your own business in connection with it; in other words, you want to be placed on the same footing that you would be on if you were citizens living in a State with a duly organized government and living outside of any control by the Gen- eral Government? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, do I understand you to further represent that that is the wish and desire of your tribe as a whole ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of any dissenting voice to the propo- sition ? In other words, are there any members of the tribe who dis- sent from that proposition, and if so, what number or proportion of the whole so dissent? Mr. Pooler. Well, I don't know of but one person who is not will- ing to have the restrictions removed from his land. The Chairman. Is there any particular reason that would impel him to that course of action ? Mr. Pooler. No, sir ; there is no particular reason that I know of. You can see by J. B. Summers' report of 1887, that the Ottawas as a whole are peaceable and law-abiding citizens. Senator Long. That was the report that I read from ? 60 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Of course in that report it gives my brother Shawnees a kind of a setback ; but since that report was written they have advanced a great deal, and are now farming largely and have more facilities for farming. They are going right along and im- proving their land all the time. Senator Long. That report was made nineteen years ago ? Mr. Pooler. Yes, sir. Of course, as I said, there has been a great deal of improvement since that report was made. The Chairman. I would ask if there is any gentleman in the room from that particular tribe who holds views contrary to those ex- pressed by these two last speakers ? If there is we would be glad to hear from him. Mr. Pooler. There isn't any one here, I believe. STATEMENT OF MR. A. S. THOMPSON. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, we have desired on this question in regard to the removal of restrictions that the Indians take that up ; and in view of the fact that it has been taken up and questions raised in regard to our homesteads, I wish to say that we, as members of the band at Miami, think that perhaps we have no homestead whatever. There is a homestead in five of the tribes pro- vided by treaty, but up there it is doubtful if there is any at all. There is just an allotment of 80 acres to each individual, and we have no provision in regard to a homestead, and'^it is almost a certainty that we have no homestead unless we are living on it. In reference to this report that has been quoted here, I want to call your attention to the fact that that report was prepared nineteen years ago — that the Senator has just read — and the fact is that the Quapaws at that time were a kind of shiftless people, but that is changed, and to-day they are becoming very progressive. The fact is that their reservation in view of the mines is the richest one there. Senator Long. "What mines ? Mr. Thompson. The lead and jack mines. The Joplin district is being extended across that way, and we have probably 25 or 30 good lead and jack mills in the Quapaw reservation. The royalties com- ing from these mines are quite an item to the Indians, and they are becoming more progressive, and it is also true of the Shawnees that they are daily becoming more industrious and progressive. Yes, we are progressing, and almost all of us are living on our homes at the present time. I understand that last year the Indians — each tribe — prepared a petition and submitted it to Congress; and nearly every Indian up there asked for the removal of these restrictions upon all land except- ing the homestead of 40 acres, and that he should have the right to select the 40 acres. Now when an Indian inherits land up there, through the Department he receives $10 a month. The Chairman. Well, is that not a regulation of the Interior De- partment applying to all the tribes ? Mr. Thompson. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. It is a regulation of the Department ? Mr. Thompson. Yes, sir. That is one of the reasons they want it removed, because they are not selling, and they can get just as much in rent. The Chairman. Is there anything more on this subject? FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 61 STATEMENT OF MB. GEORGE W. FINLEY. Mr. FiNLET. Yes; I want to say something. I am a Peoria, and my post-office is Miami. I don't know that there is any use of my talking very long for the men who have spoken have made about as good a statement of it as can be made, but I want to say that we all want these restrictions removed. I have a personal reason for want- ing these restrictions removed. I have two children, and one of them drawed an allotment and one of them didn't. The last child, the one that didn't draw an allotment, ia crippled and never can work on a farm for he couldn't do anything, and I would like to have this allot- ment of mine in such shape that if I would lie down and die I could leave it to the crippled child, for he needs it, and the other child don't, as it has already an allotment. One of them is a girl and the other is a boy, and the girl has an allotment and the boy hasn't, so he needs what I have more than the girl does. I want it fixed so I can divide it between the wife and the boy. Now that is my personal reason for wanting the restrictions re- moved. If I should die as things are that would be divided up and the child that already has an allotment would come in and share with the others who haven't any, and she don't need it and the boy does. That is what would be done under the present law, and there would not be enough of it to do any of them any good, so I want it fixed so I can leave it to the one I want to have it when I am gone. The girl is married and has as good a home as anyone in the reservation now, and she don't need it. Senator Long. How does it come that one of your children got an allotment and not the other ? Mr. FiNLEY. He was born since the allotment. He is crippled and I would like to give him most of this land. Senator Lokg. How many people are on your rolls ? Mr. FiNLEY. Well, I usually take the census every year, but I didn't this year. Senator Long. Well, about how many is there ? Mr. FiNLEY. Well, there was 180 and some odd two years ago. Senator Long. Well, there is less than 200 ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Have you a chief ? Mr. FiNLEY. No, sir; we have what we call a business committee, that looks after things. There is 5 of us. Senator Long. There is a committee of 5 *to look after the business of your tribe and you are one of the 5 ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Elected by the tribe ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. That is done by instructions from the Department. Senator Long. And you haven't any chief ? Mr. FiNLEY. No, sir ; we have done away with chiefs. We used to have them, but now we don't have any chief any more. We have no business but what the business committee attends to. The business committee is to indemnify the person who sells the land. On part of our land the restrictions are removed — on 100 acres. The Chairman. How much is an allotment in your tribe or reser- vation ? 62 FIVE CIVILIZBD TRIBES. Mr. FiNLET. Two hundred acres. The Chaieman. And the restrictions have been removed from 100 acres of it ? Mr. FiNLEr. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Your land lies right south of the Quapaw land, don't it? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So with 100 acres you can do as you please ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, if the Secretary of the Interior approves it ; but under the restrictions now, if we sell it, we don't get the money, we only get $10 a month out of it. Mr. Chairman. Well, then, if this land is sold you don't get the proceeds of the sale to do with as you please, notwithstanding the fact that the restrictions are removed ; but the fund realized from the sale passes under Government control, and out of that fund the person who sells receives $10 a month. Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. Senator Long. That applies to inherited land, does it not? Mr. FiNLEY. That is under the original allotment. Senator Long. Do they have the same rule in regard to these things ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir ; it is all the same. I didn't come here to give any speech in, for I did not know anything about this meeting until pretty late last night, but I have often thought how it is that the Government won't let us handle our own lands after we became citizens of the United States, for a special act was passed making the Peorias citizens of the United States. I feel like I ought to be allowed to do as I please with my land, and as far as taxes are con- cerned, I am ready to pay my taxes for improvements just like any other citizen. The Chairman. In other words you want the right of citizenship ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You are not paying any taxes now ? Mr. FiNLEY. No, sir. ' , Senator Long. But if all citizenship rights are accorded you, you are willing to pay your proportion of the taxes necessary to be levied ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir ; I am willing to pay whatever may be wanted. I want to live right — like a citizen. Here is a white man here— he has 40 acres, and here is another that may have 500 acres, and there is no improvements — no good roads or anything — and these men have to suffer as well as the Indians, because there is no roads. They will keep on suffering too, unless the restrictions are removed. Senator Teller. Well, you think that your people — all of your people — are able to take care of themselves? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir ; I do. There is not one in my tribe but what reads and writes; not one in my tribe. Senator Long. How many full bloods have you got in your tribe? Mr. FiNLEY. There is mighty few. Senator Long. What is your percentage ? Mr. FiNLEY. About three-quarters, perhaps, and the other fourth French. There is mighty few can talk our old language, but we can all talk English. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 63 Senator Long. You can't talk the Peoria language? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Can you talk your native tongue ? Mr. FiNLEY. Yes, sir; I can, but my children can't and I can't teach them at all. That is all I have to say, for I didn't come here to make any talk at all. I didn't know about this till last night, and I haven't had time to think up a speech if I wanted to make one. Thank you for your kindness in listening to me. The Chairman. Is there any representative of any other tribe here? Mr. John Wadsworth came forward. STATEMENT OF MB. JOHN WADSWORTH. Senator Long. What is your name ? Mr. Wadswohth. John Wadsworth. Senator Long. What tribe do you belong to ? Mr. Wadsworth. Peoria. Senator Long. What is your post-office address ? Mr. Wadsworth. Miami. Senator Long. What do you wish to say? Mr. Wadsworth. I can't say much more than Mr. Finley has said, only I will say that our people want the restrictions taken off the re- maining hundred acres — we want the restrictions taken off all of it. Senator Long. You are not a full blood ? Mr. Wadsworth. No, sir. Senator Long. What blood are you? Mr. Wadsworth. I am about half. My grandfather and grand- mother were full bloods. Senator Long. And you are a Peoria ? Mr. Wadsworth. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Do you know how many full bloods there are in the Peorias ? Mr. Wadsworth. Well, sir, when it comes down to that, we haven't got nary a full blood. Senator Long. You haven't any full bloods then ? Mr. Wadsworth. No, sir. Mr. Finley there is the nearest to a full blood that I know of, and he isn't full blood. Senator Long. You refer to the gentleman who just spoke? Mr. Wadsworth. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And he is not a full blood ? Mr. Wadsworth. No, sir ; he is the third oldest man we have in the tribe — ^Mr. Finley is. I am the oldest, and there is another one a few years younger than I am, and then he comes along. All the rest are younger than he is. Senator Long. How old are you ? Mr. Wadsworth. 64 years old last July. Senator Long. Have you a family ? Mr. Wadsworth. Well, I have only a wife and myself. The chil- dren are all gone. I have 100 acres, and I want to sell it and go to town, for I am tired of farming, so I want to sell my land and go to town. Senator Long. How long have you lived there on your farm ? 64 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. Wadsworth. Eight there on that land I have lived there ever since '68. I was there long before we had any allotment at all. I have lived right there on that same place. The Chairman. How many acres have you? Mr. Wadsworth. I have 180 acres. I used to have 200, but I have sold 20. The Chairman. Would you consider it of any special value to have your restrictions removed ? Mr. Wadsworth. Yes, sir. I am getting old like Mr. Finley, and I want to get away from the farm. I am tired of it, and I want to go to town. The Chairman. Well, unless you had an opportunity to invest your money in another place, you would not want to leave the farm or sell it. You would not want to sell it unless you saw a favorable opportunity to invest your money somewhere else ? Mr. Wadsworth. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So you would prefer to sell your land even though you could only draw $10 a month ? Mr. Wadsworth. No, sir ; I don't want it that way. I want to be allowed to sell the land and invest the money in my own way. I would rather have it the way it is, if I would be subject to that restriction. The Chairman. Then you mean that you would not sell your land if this restriction were removed until you saw an opportunity to sell it again — I should say, you saw an opportunity to invest the money elsewhere on favorable terms ? Mr. Wadsworth. That is what I mean. Senator Teller. Then you would not sell? Mr. Wadsworth. No, sir ; I wouldn't have to sell ; but if I get a chance to sell at a good price I want to be fixed so I can sell ; but the way it is now I can't sell. Senator Long. Is there any mineral on your land ? Mr. Wadsworth. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Were any of your people in the Army ? Mr. Wadsworth. Yes ; but that was several years ago. They are all dead now that were in the Army. The Chairman. Is there anything further you wish to say ? Mr. Wadsworth. No, sir. Thank you for your kindness. The Chairman. Now, gentlemen, there is another matter that seems to be kindred to this, and about which some gentleman spoke this morning, and that is in reference to the approval of deeds in the Quapaw agency. I suppose that matter will be submitted by law- yers. I think the committee — at least I confess that I am entirely Ignorant of this matter, and I am sure that all of us would like to hear about this matter. If there is anything further to be said on this subject, we are ready to hear it. STATEMENT OF MR. S. C. PTJLLERTON. Senator Long. State your address and your occupation. Mr. FuLLERTON. I am a member of the bar and a citizen of the town of Miami. I will take up the matter to which the Senator has ]ust referred concerning court deeds, for that is the way the subject IS entitled, and as a prelude, I desire to say, or, rather, I should say, I FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 65 desire to call your attention to the fact that several gentlemen before you have given their address as Miami. It does not necessarily fol- low because that is their post-office address that they live in Miami, for they do not all live there. They live anywhere from 6 to 8 miles and 9 miles out of town. Their post-office, however, is Miami, as we have rural routes over there, and all of them live on these rural routes in different directions from the town. The Chairman. How large a town is Miami ? Mr. Ftjlleetgn. It has somewhere from 2,300 to 2,500 people. Now, on behalf of the chief of the Miamis, Thomas F. Kichard- ville, who is the" old chief of the Miamis, and he is about 76 years of age, and he is very enthusiastic on the question of exercising the rights of citizenship. Last year the subject came up of how to pro- ceed to get the restriction removed from the land of himself and his wife and daughter The Chaieman. Was that through the Interior Department? Mr. FuLLEETON. Yes, sir. Application was made to Congress. I am not sure whether it went through the Interior Department or not. Senator Long. The Interior Department under the law of 1884 has no authority to remove the restrictions from any of this land of these eight tribes ? Mr. FulijEeton. No, sir; none whatever. What I gather from the Senator's question was whether the application was submitted to Congress through the Interior Department. About that I am not certain; however, Congress passed an act authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to issue him, his wife, and daughter a patent in fee simple to all their lands, and these patents have been issued and de- livered. It has been several months now since they were delivered, and I happen to know that the old gentleman had an offer of $35 an acre for the land — that is, an offer of $35 an acre for 100 acres of raw prairie land — which he turned down, standing out for $40 an acre, which in my opinion and in the opinion of real estate men who laiow the value of the land and whom I have heard express an opinion, is from $10 to $15 more than it is actually worth. Now, I merely mention this case as an illustration of how they hold on to their land when it is in their power to sell it, and the idea they have as to its value. Now, the old gentleman has expressed on nu- merous occasions his desire to have all restrictions on the sale or dis- posal of land removed, and it has been done in his case, in order that he and his tribesmen may become citizens of the United States in the fullest sense of the term, with all, the duties and obligations thereof, and he is willing to have that done knowing full well that it carries along with it the obligation to pay his full proportion of the taxes of the community on everything he possesses. He wishes to be in a position to discharge every obligation, financial and otherwise, of a citizen of the new State ; and I think I can safely say that that is the sentiment of a large proportion of the members of those tribes over there with whom I am personaly acquainted. Now, as to the matter of court deeds. I will make a brief statement concerning this matter. The lands of these tribes to which I refer are already under the general act of 1887, excepting the Miamis and Peorias which were allotted under a special act of March, 1889, these allotments having been made from 16 to 18 years ago. Previous to 66 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. this the Miamis and Peorias had a patent to their lands in conditional fee, containing provisions against taxation and alienation for a certain length of time. Now, in the act of 1887, in section 5, it was provided that these Indians, on accepting their allotments, should become citizens of the United States. By the terms of that act a certificate for a patent, or a trust patent, was issued, reciting that the Government would hold the tract of land selected by the Indians in trust for twenty-five years, and that at the expiration of which time a patent in fee should issue, or would issue. It further provided that the laws of the State of Arkansas regu- lating descent shall, so far as applicable, apply to all the lands in the Indian Territory — the " laws of the State of Arkansas regulating descent and partition " is what it says. Since the passage of the act of May 27, 1902, a number of partition suits have been instituted in the United States court at Miami for the partition of the lands of deceased allottees among the lawful heirs. In this connection I desire to say that in a number of instances it has developed by the report of the commissioners back to the court that the land was not susceptible of being partitioned in kind among the heirs. I think I recall instances or an instance where the portion of the heir was as small as the one sixty-fourth part of perhaps 80 acres, in which event you can readily see it would be a matter of practical impossibility to set off one sixty-fourth part of 80 acres without prejudice to the rights of the owners. A number of instances have arisen in which the commissioners have, upon their oath, reported back to the court that the land could not be divided among the heirs without manifest injury to their rights, and that they could not make a division of it, and refused to do so for these reasons, and the court — Judges Gill and Lawrence and Judge Springer, I believe, in different instances — have made an order in such a situation that the land be sold to the highest bidder after being so advertised for sale for so many days, and the United States marshal pursuant to that would proceed and offer the land for sale and sell it to the highest bidder, and in doing that the marshal would be performing the duties of the sheriff of the county. The land would be appraised prior to a sale, and at the sale in no case could that land be sold for less than two-thirds of its appraised value. Now, that was the course of procedure for some time. It went along that way for several years. It went along that way — well, I'll say for two or three years — before any question was ever raised as to the right or power or jurisdiction of the court to so order these sales, and by doing so vest a good title in the purchaser. Some question, how- ever, has been raised on that question as to the jurisdiction of the court. One to which Mr. Wilson will refer, after I have concluded, was forwarded to the Secretary of the Interior after the court had ordered it — that is, after the court had ordered the marshal to make the sale in the old manner described, or after the marshal had been ordered to make the deed, and the marshal did make the deed, and his act was approved by the court and the deed delivered; and it was sent to the Secretary of the Interior, with the request that he approve it The Chairman. When was that done ? Mr. FuLLEETON. Well, sir, I confess that I can't tell. I don't know when it was done. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 67 The Chairman. Or why it was done ? Mr. FuLLEETON. No, sir; I can't tell that either, unless it was done for the purpose of forestalling any question that might arise in the future as to the legality or regularity of the proceeding. I can't account for it on any other theory. I have always taken the position that there was no necessity for forwarding a deed, court deed, to the Secretary of the Interior for his approval if the proceedings were irregular or void or fatally defective ab initio. I have taken the position that the mere approval of the Secretary did not and could not cure a defect that was latent in it, and I can account for this pro- cedure on no ground other than that people who were buying these titles were beginning to get suspicious of all such titles and sought to fortify themselves by securing this approval. They were probably getting suspicious of these Indian Territory judges, and they thought they would be benefited by getting this approval when it came to transferring the property to some other purchaser ; otherwise, if you had a citizen from Missouri or from Kansas, with whom you were going to negotiate a sale of this land, if he found there was the semblance of a doubt as to the regularity as to its character, he would turn it down, and it probably was because of that feature that this was done. The Chairman. Was it done under the act of '92 ? Mr. FtTLLERTON. No, sir ; I think not. I think these instances to which I refer have all occurred since 1892, and I might suggest a reason for that. The Chairman. Well, does not the act of 1902 say that it must be approved by the Secretary ? . Mr. FuLLERTON. Ycs ; if it was sold through the Department. Senator Teller. Does it say so — sold through the Department or sold through the court ? Mr. FuLLERTON. No, sir. Senator Long. Well, do you consider that these two acts conflict ? Mr. FuLLERTON. No, sir ; now I will state my position as nearly as I can. I think there is two methods of acquiring title to inherited Indian lands. I believe it must, have been the intent of Congress at the time the allotment was made that the law of partition which was then in force in Kansas should be put in force in the Territory. In fact, the act so states that said law should be put in force and apply as to these lands. Congress must have known that there were instances which would arise where the land of the estate of an allottee could not be divided among the heirs in kind. Senator Long. Well, there was a special act applying to the tribes in the Quapaw Agency, was there not ? Mr. FuLLBETON. Ycs, sir. Senator Long. What was the date of that ? Mr. FuLLERTON. 1887. Senator Long. And this general act was passed in 1902? ' Mr. FuLLERTON. Ycs, sir ; that was in 1902. I believe, as I have suggested, that prior to the passage of this general act, that if the heirs of a deceased allottee went into court — into a court of competent jurisdiction, and it was claimed that our courts were courts of com- petent jurisdiction — if they went into court, the court acquired juris- diction of the person and subject-matter of the suit, and by proper proceedings decided that the land could not be apportioned among 68 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the heirs. Now, that proceeding is entirely a matter by itself and is not a matter with which the Interior Department has anything to do; it is purely and simply a matter of partition entirely separate and independent of the Department of the Interior. The Chairman. Do you think that applies since 1902 ? Mr. FuLLEETON. Ycs, sir ; I think so ; but the Secretary of the In- terior says it is not an independent action ; but the courts have gone right ahead and said they have jurisdiction of these matters and we will exercise it, and not pay any attention to the Secretary of the Department. I think they have been holding that now for some two or three years. The Chairman. The point is whether the general act applies, or the special act applies since 1902. Is that the point? Mr. Ftjlleeton. Well, the Secretary of the Interior, as I am in- formed, is claiming that the courts absolutely have no jurisdiction in the matter excepting to partition the land in kind, and I understand his position is that when it comes to the point that it appears that it can't be partitioned in kind, the courts must stop right there, for his contention is that if that can't be done, to wit, partition or apportion it in kind, that is the end of the court's jurisdiction, and it can't do any more. In other words, the court can not order a sale and have the land sold, and the proceeds divided in lieu of kind. The Chairman. And the sale is only valid when approved by the Secretary, is that it ? Mr. Ftjlleeton. Yes, sir. That is the decision of the Department. Senator Teller. Who made that decision ? Mr. FuLLERTON. Hitchcock. Senator Teller. Eecently ? Mr. FuLLERTON. Ycs, sir; quite recently. I think he made it in 1903. A Voice. No, it was in 1904 first, and later he reversed his decision. Senator Teller. What is his decision now ? Mr. FuLLEETON. He holds the court has no jurisdiction to make these sales. The Chaieman. What did he first hold in that matter ? Mr. Ftjlleeton. He at first held that he would approve the deed. He did not say that the court had any jurisdiction or power to order the sale ; he ignored that question, but decided that he would approve the deeds, and now he says that the court has no jurisdiction, and in that way he has varied the regulations from time to time in such a way that it is impossible to tell what the rule is, or what will be done in any particular case. At first he said that he would approve the deeds that justice might be done, but he studied over the matter for a long time, but at length, on August 25, he wrote me that he had dis- approved the deed and would continue to disapprove them. Senator Tellee. On the ground stated— that is to say, that the court had no jurisdiction to order the sale? Mr. FuLLEETON. Ycs, sir ; I think so. Now, I want to say that I don't know exactly what his reasons were, for I never did elicit much information in the corespondence. Senator Tellee. Well, did he send you a copy of his opinion ? Mr. FuLLERTON. Nothing further than to say he was of that opinion. Senator Teller. You don't know what officer wrote that opinion? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 69 Mr. FuLLEETON. No, sir. I had correspondence one time and an- other with about all of them — I think I had correspondence with Mr. Larrabee, one of the acting commissioners, and with Judge Ryan and Judge Wilson, and several others, and also from the Secretary him- self. Senator Long. They held that the general act of 1902 repealed the special act, or modified it? Mr. FuLLERTON. They claimed that there never was any jurisdiction in the court either before or after the passage of the general act. In other words, they claimed that the court never had jurisdiction to sell these lands. Their claim was that the court had jurisdiction to partition, but not to sell. Senator Long. Now, what do the courts hold about that ? Mr. FuLLEETON. Well, the courts hold that they have. Now I want to call your attention to the fact that the Secretary of the Interior has stated recently that he will cause the district attorney to institute proceedings against all these purchasers to set aside all these proceed- ings and dispossess them of any title they may have acquired. These matters never come up in this shape except in these partition suits. However, I haven't much fear of the result of such proceedings if instituted, for I think the court will stand by its ruling. Senator Long. Well, now, what do you want ? Mr. FuLLEETON. We want Congress to pass an act allowing them to sell their lands. We want an act that will put validity in these titles that have been acquired in this way, where the court has found that partition in kind could not be made, and has decreed a sale which has been made and the land put up and sold by the marshal at public outcry, and has been purchased by the purchaser in good faith, and he has paid his good money out for it — paid it into the court through the marshal, and he has a deed which the court has approved, and has ordered the marshal to make distribution of the funds realized to the various heirs according to their respective in- terests. This has been done, and the Indians have in each and every instance accepted the money and yielded possession to the purchaser, and now the Secretary of the Interior comes along and by his ruling casts a cloud on every one of these titles. We want Congress to take such action as will remove that cloud. Senator Long. How many of these cases is there — not altogether, for I expect you can't state accurately how many, but approxi- mately, how many is there ? Mr. FtJLLERTON. Well, in the Quapaw Agency there has been twelve or fifteen tracts sold that way. Now, I want the committee to understand that this method of disposing of land has never been countenanced or resorted to by the courts unless it was in a case where it appeared that the land could not be divided among the heirs with- out great injustice to some of them. The tract of land is almost always small, it is never very large, and there may be a whole host of heirs which would render a division in kind out of question, as the part of each heir would be so small that it would be useless for any practical purpose, it is in such cases that the courts have resorted to a sale of the property and a division of the proceeds; but where it is possible to divide the actual land it has always been done by the courts. 70 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Senator Long. Then the heir who inherits, may, under the act of 1902, go ahead and sell ? Mr. FuLLEETON. Yes, sir; and I might suggest that I have per- sonal knowledge of instances of this kind. Take the case of a large estate up there in which there is— say 160 acres— for that is a large estate up there for an individual to possess. The value of that land was something like $30 or $35 an acre. Two of the heirs were in possession of that land. All the heirs were of age excepting one or two minor children of the deceased. Now, the two that were in pos- session absolutely refused to join in a petition for division; and the others were obliged to bring proceedings for a division of the estate by sale, and this was their sole remedy— the sole remedy of the ones that were out of possession. Now, proceedings were brought to divide the land, and if the court found that the land could not be divided in kind, and suppose that it could not be sold, what remedy would the other heirs have ? Here is two of them in possession and the others want to sell or divide it, and the court finds it can't be divided, the other heirs are absolutely out of it, they have no remedy and can't share in the estate for they can't go down to the agency and force them to sell. To suppose that there is no equitable remedy for such a condition, is, in my judgment, preposterous. I will say this, that the court has in every instance sought to protect the interests of these Indians in every way possible. Now, we want Congress to ratify and confirm these sales or fix it up in some way so there will be no cloud on these titles, for as it is the purchasers at these sales can't dispose of the title or the property to anyone with that cloud on it. They bought their land in good faith and paid their money for it, and now if the Secretary of the Interior causes the district attorney to institute suits against the purchasers of the land at these sales, and if the courts should refuse to sustain the proceedings by which they acquired what title they have to the lands, these purchasers would absolutely lose their money which they have paid out on it. The Indian would not get the land ; it would be no use to him if he had it divided up into such small bodies, and in most cases a farmer has bought it who is capable and willing to farm it ; and so I submit that on any ground of expediency or justice these deeds should be con- firmed and made — the title in fee simple made absolute in these purchases. I will say, further, classes or deeds that have been before the De- partment for confirmation, that this does not apply to, and this com- mittee from these tribes is not here asking for any relief whatever for these purchasers of these lands sold under court proceedings, further than what we believe to be just and fair and equitable. We hope that the committee will see it as we do, and that in your report such appropriate action in the way of legislation will be advised as will settle this question for all time. Senator Long, I believe, has some knowledge of these things, and Mr. Curtis knows all about it, I am quite sure. A number of years ago when Judge Springer was on the circuit bench down here, parties purchased some Quapaw lands and made some payment down on the land at a nominal price, with the agreement expressed that when the Indians could make a valid title they would pay the balance ; that was the way it was done, and then the Indian would be bundled off down here to Muscogee to the land FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 71* office, and, finally, under some course of procedure, it was decided that the Indian could make a good title. Senator Long. Under what law ? Mr. FuLLEETON. Well, the court took the position, as I understand it, that he was an interested person. They were really on a contested case; the restrictions died with the allottees, and the heirs of the allottees could come in afterwards and sell it. Senator Long. Well, when was it ? Mr. FuLLBRTON. Oh, that was sometime ago. Senator Long. That was before 1892? Mr. FuLLERTON. Ycs, sir; that was a good long while ago. some- where along about between 1888 and 1892. After the court made that holding, the purchaser would go to the Indian and get a new deed from him, reciting that it was in satisfaction of a vendor's lien for unpaid purchase money. These deeds, as I understand it, have been presented and their approval asked, but we don't want these matters taken up; but these matters have been decided by Judges Gill and Springer over here at Miami, to which I have referred, in reference to the sale of estates of deceased allottees, have all been open and aboveboard, and the rights of the Indians protected as well as they have been protected by any court on earth ; and these people who pur- chased at these sales have come in there and invested their money in good faith in the belief that they were getting the title which the court said they were getting, and now that the action of the Secretary of the Interior has cast a cloud upon all these titles, we ask Congress to take such action in the way of enacting appropriate legislation as will confirm the titles in the purchasers. These other matters that I have referred to as coming from the Quapaw agency are not par- tition suits. Senator Long. You have a printed statement. Will you present that statement to the committee, showing the individual cases? Mr. FuLLERTON. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You want such legislation as may be passed to specify clearly and unmistakably its purpose, so there will be no doubt about it? Mr. Ftjlleeton. Yes, sir ; we would like it to be so clear that any- one may know just where he is at. The Chairman. I would suggest that the legislation be general legislation that would apply to all cases that might arise later on in the matter of these partition suits. Senator Long. Will you draft a bill that will be presented to the committee embodying your ideas as to what the legislation should be along these lines ? Mr. FuLLERTON. Yes, sir — that is, ratifying and approving the deeds made by the United States Court in partition matters. The Chairman. What you want is a bill conferring jurisdiction on the court in such cases ? Mr. Ftjlleeton. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And also ratifying what the courts have done heretofore ? Mr. Ftjlleeton. Yes, sir; we will prepare something along that line and send it to you. We had something of that kind prepared, but since getting the views of the committee probably it should be 12 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. amended, so we will have one prepared embodying what is desired according to the suggestions and send it to you That is all, gentle- men, and I thank you for your patient and courteous hearing. STATEMENT OP MK. D. H. WILSON. The Chairman. Please state your residence. Mr. Wilson. Vinita, Ind. T. Being personally interested in this matter, I am very glad of an opportunity to appear before this committee and express my views on conditions as they exist down here in the Indian Territory and to call your attention specifically to certain wrongs and abuses which, I think, before you get out of the Territory you will agree with me exist. I confess that I am personally interested in this matter — indeed, every resident of the Territory has a vital interest in these matters and in seeing that they are settled in such a manner as will result in the advantage and benefit of the Territory as a whole. As I said before, I am personally interested in this matter or these matters, and that probably is the strongest reason that would induce me to say anything about it. I live here in Vinita, and it follows as a matter of course that the gentlemen from Miami, who are on the ground, are more familiar with the matters which they have dis- cussed than I am. As a rule, they are more familiar with that class of business than we are who reside here in Vinita, but I and the other gentlemen prepared a statement in writing, consisting of a number of pages, setting forth these different laws and directing the attention of the committee to them, so I will not refer to that at length; but the particular matter that controls me and governs my action in inducing me to send my deed to Washington was this: I should have stated in the beginning that I bought a quarter section of land that had been sold under partition proceedings. This land belonged to two Ottawa Indians, and the question had been discussed to some extent then among the people up there and down here too, and always as to when these deeds should be given; nnd I began to think about the matter, and I became somewhat in doubt about it ; but having paid the full appraised value of the land and knowing that it was a fair, square deal all through, and that I had had no connection with the suit, and knowing that no fault could be attributed to me or anything in the way of wrong had occurred which could be charged to me, or to anyone else, so far as I knew, I felt per- fectly confident of the matter and sent the deed to the Secretary of the Interior with a copy of it, asking him to sign it and return it to me. Senator Long. When was that ? Mr. Wilson. That was in the summer of 1893. I did that without taking the precaution of putting it on record in the office of the cir- cuit clerk, having confidence in the Secretary of the Interior and that he would send it back to me as requested. I had confidence that he would at least return me it, but he did not do it, and he refused to approve it, taking the position that it was illegal and therefore void, it would not be returned to me, but would be kept there. Senator Long. Did he write you to that effect? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Have you a copy of that communication, or the communication itself? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 73 Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; I think so. I had considerable correspond- ence with him and I think I have most of it. At any rate it was my purpose to keep it, and I think I have it. Now, gentlemen, I paid $3,280 for that land, being the full ap- praised value of it. The Chairman. How many acres? Mr. Wilson. One hundred and sixty acres. I discussed the matter with the Secretary from time to time and pressed it upon his atten- tion as best I could. Senator Long. You say you discussed it with him? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. In writing? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir ; I kept pressing the matter on him, endeavor- ing to get my deed approved, until the fall of 1904, when I was advised on December 12, 1904, that this deed had been approved. Well, in a short time after that, or as soon as I thought proper courtesy re- quired me to wait for them ; I waited for the deed, and then I wrote to the Secretary to return me the deed, but for some reason, I don't know what, they concluded not to do it. Well, that is the way it is. Since that time they have had a number of special agents investigat- ing the question as to whether or not that deed was not obtained fraudulently. Well, that was all an ex parte matter so far as that was concerned. Senator Teller. Did you buy it at a public sale or after it had been sold ? That is, did you buy it yourself at the public sale, or did you buy it afterwards ? Mr. Wilson. I bought it after it had been sold. The law pro- vides — Senator Long is well versed in these laws ; he knows all about them — the laws of Kansas. That provides that when one or more of the heirs elects to take the land it is appraised by appraisers and the court allows the heirs who so elect to take the land to pay into the court to the other heirs, or for the other heirs who don't so elect, the proportion of the appraised value coming to these heirs, and then they receive a deed for it. Now that was the way it was done, and in this case that I have in mind there was a sale to be made, and this purchaser was casting about for the money with which to pay the purchase price of the land and she couldn't do it ; she couldn't get it. Of course, she had attorneys who were attending to it for her and she was looking around for the money, and she couldn't make it. She applied to the bank, but they wouldn't advance it, and her attorneys were looking around for it, too. She finally came to me and laid the matter before me, and I did not have the money, for I don't usually carry that much money around with me, but I was fortunate enough to be able to borrow the money, which I did, and advanced it to her and let her pay it into court, and the deed was made to her, she in turn making a warranty deed to me. Senator Long. Now, what deed did you send to the Secretary ? Mr. Wilson. I sent the court deed to her. Now it rested from this time — December, 1904, to August, 1906 — during all of which time I was trying to get my deed back, but since August, 1906, the Secretary wrote me that they had reconsidered the matter and the deed was disapproved, so you see it finally wound up in a disap- proval; so he wrote me that the deed had finally been disapproved and that he had taken steps — that he had directed that proper action S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 6 74 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. be taken to set aside and annul the conveyance to her as well as her deed to me, to the end that the legal title be declared in the United States. Senator Long. Who was in possession of the land ? Mr. Wilson. I was in possession — am now and have been. Now, the reason I was in doubt was on account of the shape the regulations that apply to restrictions on this land are in. I had some doubt about it, but I didn't think that there could be any such a result as has been brought about, for I bought the land in good faith and paid the full appraised value of it, and that was the value of it. There wasn't any of the element of graft in this deal that I have called your attention to. The Chairman. Did you say that the Secretary said in his commu- nication that the purpose he had in view in instituting these proceed- ings was to have the title declared to be vested in the United States ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then his position is that the title had never legally passed from the United States ? Mr. Wilson. That is what he holds, it seems, and I wish now to more specifically pass to that point. I was just about to do it. The Chairman. I beg your pardon for interrupting you. Pro- ceed. Mr. Wilson. It is very natural you should take — ^that he should take that view, perhaps. I wish to refer to the law of 1887 (reading from the law of 1887). The Chairman. So the claim was that the fee to this land — or, rather, I should say, the claim was that this land was held by the United States in trust. Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir ; and for that very reason, after I had exam- ined the matter, I concluded that I would rather have the deed ap- proved by the Secretary; and it is my opinion yet; my opinion is so strong that I would not risk any more money on a deed of this kind unless it was first approved by the Secretary. Well, the law that was passed subsequently, in 1902, in effect raised these restrictions, for it permitted the restrictions to be lifted and the Indians to sell their land — that is to say, under the regulations and directions of the Secretary of the Interior it was permitted, and that is the first regu- lation or jurisdiction that appears to have been conferred, so far as vesting the full title, or conveying away this trust title that existed in the United States. Now, I am not prepared to say what would be the holding of a court of equity upon this question where the money had been paid in full at the full appraised valuation, in a partition suit, so long as the title was in the United States, and I am frank to say that it would appear to me to be a doubtful proposition as to whether the court could, by any action it would take, vest a good 1 itle in the purchaser. Now, upon examination of the matter, that is the conclusion I came to, and that was what induced me to send the deed to the Secretary for approval. At any rate, that is the position he took on the question, and he took the matter up with the Assistant Attorney-General of the United States, and they thrashed it over pretty thoroughly. The Chairman. The Secretary informed you that suit would be brought to set aside these conveyances ? Mr, Wilson. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 75 The Chairman. Has any suit been brought yet? Mr._ Wilson. No, sir ; but I would not be surprised to be notified, any time, that suit has been brought. Now, gentlemen, it seems to nie that the two acts of Congress that have brought about this con- flict and this unfortunate situation should be repealed and a new law passed that would be so plain and specific that there could be no mis- taking its provisions and meaning. I am satisfied that the court has acted in entire good faith in this proceeding, believing that its pro- ceedings are regular and valid; and I have not a word to say as to the Secretary, for I haven't the slightest doubt but that he is just as honest and sincere in his conviction that he is right as I am that the court was right and that I thought I was doing the right, proper, and legal thing in purchasing this land, and that I got a good title. This matter has been discussed more than once before the courts, and thej' have unhesitatingly taken that view ; but I will say that Judge Parker, who has been recently appointed, has expressed the opinion that the deeds when made by the court are not good, and that he would decline to order such deeds. Senator Long. In cases coming before him ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Has the court of appeals ever passed on this question ? Mr. Wilson. No, sir ; the court of appeals has never had a case of this kind before it. The reason for it is that the division that has been made has been eminently satisfactory to all parties concerned. That being the case there was no occasion for a case to be appealed. The land of such estates have been divided in that manner up there, and it has universally brought a good price — a price satisfactory to all parties concerned, and the proceedings were amicable, the money has been paid and distributed to the Indians and everybody was satisfied, so, as I say, there has been no reason for an appeal. Now, the committee will give a statement as to the prices and every- thing as nearly as it can. It is in the form of a prepared statement, written or typewritten Senator Teller. You are going to file that with the committee ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir ; and I am going to prepare and file with you a statement of my own case, not because it is my own case, for I appre- hend the committee don't care to take up a personal matter as such, but because it is typical of a condition that applies- to more than myself. This is the course that has been agreed on by the people up there at Miami and also by the citizens of the different tribes in- terested. Senator Brandegee. Do you know how many cases altogether there are that are similar to yours ? Mr. Wilson. Well, there is from fifteen to twenty cases that are in" the same shape — that is, that are liable to get in the same condition exactly, and there might be more of them. Now, awhile ago — the gentlemen referred to some cases awhile ago that might be distin- guished from these partition suits, and I felt that there might be some embarrassment or confusion in your minds gi'owing out of these statements, so I have been a little prolix for the purpose of explaining, so that you may differentiate. Now, I happen to be familiar with these cases from having written briefs in two of them^that is, two of the cases that were taken to the court of appeals, and the cases 76 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. were of tips character : A man by the name of C. D. Goodrum, who lives up here at Lamar, in Missouri, bought about 400 or 500 acres of this land, and he had paid a part of the purchase price, and he had taken warranty deeds from the Indians who owned the lands — that is, from the heir or heirs of the allottee or from the allottee himself Senator Long. That was before 1902 ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. It was before this act was passed? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; it was a good while ago. Well, this man failed to pay the full purchase price. Now, whether that was under- stood between him and the Indian in order to facilitate the sale I don't know — but at any rate he failed to pay the purchase price in full and the Indians were induced to — or did, at any rate — and whether they were induced to do it or not I don't know, possibly they did it voluntarily — ^but at any rate, however it was brought about, they went before the United States court and brought a suit to enforce a vendor's lien on this land and get a judgment declaring that there was so much due. Now, in a stipulation between them and Goodrum it was stipulated that whereas the land had been sold and the parties were in doubt as to whether the sale was valid or legal, and there was a certain portion of the money that was due on the purchase price, and asking the court whether a sale of the land could legally be made or a contract for the sale of it could legally be enforced, and if so, that a lien be declared for the unpaid balance of the purchase price, and on that showing the court adjudged that a lien be declared against this land for the balance of the purchase money and that the heir to the allottee had the right and power to make the deed. Well, as that Avas what they were after that ended the transaction, and the balance of the purchase money was paid, and the purchaser took his warranty deed and took possession of the land and went on about his business, and the Indian the same way, for they had ob- tained a judicial finding and that was what they wanted. Well, so far, so good ; the matter went on until both these Indians died, leav- ing another heir, a minor child, and the guardians of this child brought a suit for this land, and on the trial of that suit Judge Law- rence instructed peremptorily the jury to find for the plaintiff, the mi- nor child. Against this finding the defendant has appealed to the court of appeals and it has not yet been decided. Now, in that case, I can furnish this honorable committee Avith a copy of the briefs in that case and also a copy of the record, if desired. The Chairman. Nothing is desired. We simply want to distia- guish between these cases. Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; I understand, but I wish it understood _fully, because the committee may be very easily prejudiced by think- ing there was something else to this. I notice that Judge Gill is present here and I believe he will corrob- orate what I have stated as to the facts and the briefs and record set forth exactly what the facts were and the issues, and you may have copies of them if you desire, or you may use your own judgment. ^^Hiichever course you may pursue I am satisfied that you will come to the conclusion that these sales have uniformly been made for a fair and reasonable price, and that the proceedings have been regular and such as not to put any honest, citizen from apprehending danger in FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 77 iicquiring such titles— that the money has been paid or distributed to the Indians, and that the entire transaction has been in good faith in every instance ; and, as I said before, if you desire proof further than my statement of these facts, we will only be too glad to furnish that proof. We feel that a situation up there confronts us that is unendurable. No man can tell where he stands or what his title is to anything, and that legislation can be easily provided that will promptly right what we conceive to be great and gross wrongs. Now, I will say in conclusion that on a par with my case, I know of one other case where the Secretary has refused to approve a deed. I think that was the only other one presented to him, and the news has got abroad generally of the fate that befell these applications, so I suppose that no more will be presented to him. That is all, gentle- men. The following is the statement I agreed to leave with the committee : In the behalf of the public welfare, and especially those interested as pur- chasers of land in that portion of the Indian Territory linown as the Quapaw Agency, which comprises reservations belonging to a number of small Indian tribes or nations, I wish to make a brief statement. An act of Congress of February 8, 1887 (24 Stat. L., p. 388), provides at sec- tion 5 in part as follows : " That upon approval of the allotments provided for in this act by the Secre- tary of the Interior he shall cause patents therefor to issue in the name of the allottees, which patents shall be of the legal effect, and declare that the United States does and will hold the land thus allotted, for the period of twenty-five years, in trust for the sole use and benefit of the Indian for whom the allotment shall have been made, or, in case of his decease, of his heirs ac- cording to the laws of the State or Territory where such land is located, and that at the expiration of said period the United States will convey the same by patent to said Indian, or his heirs as aforesaid, in fee, discharged of said trust and free from all charge or encumbrance whatsoever : Provided, That the President of the United States may in any case in his discretion extend the period. And if any conveyance shall be made of the lands set apart and allotted as herein provided, or any contract made touching the same, before the expiration of the time above mentioned, such conveyance or contract shall be absolutely null and void : Provided, That the law of descent and partition in force in the State or Territory where such lands are situate shall apply thereto after patents therefor have been executed and delivered except as herein otherwise provided ; and the laws of the State of Kansas regulating the descent and of real estate, shall, so far as practicable, apply to all lands in the Indian Territory which may be allotted in severalty under the provisions of this act." * * * The law of Kansas as thus put in force will be found in the Compiled Laws of Kansas of 1885, at pages 683 and 6S4, wherein on page 684 it is provided as follows : " Sec. 618. After the interests of all the parties shall have been ascertained the court shall make an order specifying the interests of the respective parties and directing partition to be made accordingly. " Sec. 619. Upon making such order the court shall appoint three commission- ers to make partition into the requisite number of shares. " Sec. 620. For good and sufficient reasons appearing to the court the commis- sioners may be directed to allot particular portions to any one of the parties. " Sec 621 Before entering upon their duties such commissioners shall take and suljscribe an oath that they will perform their duties faithfully and impar- tially to the best of their ability. " Sec 622. The commissioners shall make partition of the property to the par- ties according to their respective interests, if such partition can be made without manifest injury ; but if such partition can not be made, the commissioners shall make a valuation and appraisement of the property. They shall make a report of their proceedings to the court forthwith. " Sec. 623. Any party may file exceptions to the report of the commissioners, and the court may, for good cause, set aside such report and appoint other com- missioners or refer the matter back to the same commissioners. 78 PTVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. " Sec. 624. If partition be made by the commissioners, and no exceptions are filed to their report, the court shall render judgment that such partition remain firm and effectual forever. " Sec. 625. If partition can not be made, and the property shall have been valued and appraised, any one or more of the parties may elect to take the same at the appraisement, and the court may direct the sheriff to make a deed to the party or parties so electing on payment to the other parties of their proportion of the appraised value. " Sec. 626. If none of the parties elect to take the, property at the valuation, or several of the parties elect to take the same at the valuation, in opposition to each other, the court shall make an order directing the sheriff of the county to sell the same in the same manner as in sales of real estate on execution ; but no sale shall be made at less than tvco-thirds of the valuation placed upon the prop- erty by the commissioners." The above portion of the statutes of Kansas show clearly enough the right and power of the United States courts in the Indian Territory to take jurisdiction of the lands of deceased persons in partition proceedings, in connection with other portions of said laws not quoted, and Judges Springer, Gill, and Lawrence were of the opinion that when the commissioners found that the land could not be partitioned in kind, that it might then be sold, etc. Judge Luman F. Parker holds to the contrary, as does also the Secretary of the Interior, as will be pointed out later on. The act of Congress of March 27, 1902, in part provides as follows : " That the adult heirs of any deceased Indian to whom a trust or other patent containing restrictions upon alienation has been or shall be issued for lands allotted to him may sell and convey the lands inherited from such decedent ; but in case of minors, their interests shall be sold only by a guardian duly appointed by the proper court upon the order of such court, made upon petition filed by the guardian ; but all such conveyances shall be subject to the approval of the Sec- retary of the Interior. * * * There are a number of small Indian reservations in what is known as the Quapaw Agency, which is in the northeast part of the Indian Territory, where deceased Indian lands have been sold in partition proceedings, in accordance to the laws of Kansas, above quoted. The proceedings in all cases have been fairly conducted, and the landhas sold for all it was worth, according to the appraisement at public outcry a'fter advertisement. I am fully warranted in saying that the United States courts in the Indian Territory are careful to scrutinize all proceedings, especially of this character, and as a rule the lands have sold for as much or more than they have when advertised and sold under the rules prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. Thus matters have proceeded for a number of years, one set of purchasers buying at sales made in partition proceedings, while others bought lands when advertised by the United States Indian agent, under the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, and, as a matter of course, all purchasers believed they were getting a good title. However, in the case of the Petah land, in suit No. 1960, entitled Peter McCoonse et al, v. Thomas Petah, in the United States court at Vinita. Ind. T., where the land was sold through proceedings in partition, and one or two other instances which have come to my knowledge, the deeds that were given the purchasers in the partition cases were forwarded to the Sec- retary of the Interior in order to secure his approval of the sale in addition to the approval of the United States court, and the Secretary of the Interior held and still holds that the United States court has no power to make such sales, and that the deeds issued in the partition proceedings are void. A statement of the said case No. 1960 is attached hereto. Judge Luman P. Parker, jr., has recently passed upon this question, and, in view of the restrictions in the law of February 8, 1887, holds that the court has no power to sell the land as an incident to partition, but that it may legally divide the land in kind, according to the respective interests of tlie heirs. The attitude of the Secretary of the Interior and the views of Judge Parker regarding this matter have placed a cloud upon the titles obtained in par- tition proceedings which is likely to result in great damage to the owners of this land in instances where they desire to sell, if, indeed, they may not lose their land altogether, as the honorable Secretary of the Interior has already indicated that he will cause proper steps to be taken to have all conveyances made ia partition proceedings set aside. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 79 It can be fully demonstrated on investigation of tlie records of the United States courts at Miami and Vlnita, Ind. T., ttiat in every case, wtiere lands have been sold in partition proceedings, that the same have brought a fair value, that they sold for at least tv^o-thirds of the appraised value, and in most in- stances more than the appraised value, that it was sold at public auction after being duly advertised, and that it was sold by the United States marshal to the highest bidder. Again, it should be remembered, that the purchaser paid the money for the land into court, and the same was distributed to the Indian heirs according to their interests ; and as the matter now stands, if these sales were held void, the purchaser would simply lose all he had paid for the land, after he had bought it in perfect good faith, under a judgment of a United States court, which acted under a law of Congress as its authority. I have never so far heard of any of the Indians who have claimed that they were robbed or mistreated in any way in these cases, but in view of the fact that the two laws of Congress above quoted .have caused the court and the Honor- able Secretary of the Interior to hold different views, with the result that the purchasers of these lands may lose their investments, it seems to me it is neces- sary and proper that remedial legislation be had to cure the defects in their titles. In this connection, I beg your honorable committee to bear in mind that these titles can be cured without injuring anyone, the Indians in every case having received his pay for the land, and, without relief of the character indi- cated, the purchasers of this land are likely, at no far distant time, to have suits to defend, with the probable loss of their lands. Attached hereto is a provision which, I think, will be sufficient, if enacted as a law. I again respectfully express the hope and desire that your honorable com- mittee will cause such laws to be passed as will cover the matter herein indi- cated. Respectfully submitted. D. H. Wilson. We, the undersigned, members of the bar of Miami, Ind. T., have read the within and foregoing statement, and do most heartily adopt and indorse the same and recommend that the relief prayed for be granted. This November 13, 1906. S. C. FULLERTON. F. D. Adams. A. S. Thompson. D. W. COOTEB. V. E. Thompson. D. W. Talbot. We, the undersigned, citizens and members of Indian tribes located within the Quapaw Agency, Ind. T., do most heartily adopt and indorse the foregoing statement, and recommend that the relief prayed be granted. Dated this 13th day of November, 1906. Manfobd B. Pooler, Chief of Ottawas. O. J. Enswobth. Joseph B. Ring. John Wadswobth. George W. Finley. John W. Eabley. Mr. M. M. Edmondson, of Miami, Ind T. I desire to call the at- tention of your honorable body to the mineral leases up there in the lands of the Quapaw Agency. There was an act approved on June 7, 1 believe, was the date Senator Long. You are now presenting a matter entirely different from anything we have had up before us so far. Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir ; I desire to say something germane also to these matters we have been discussing, but I also desire to discuss the question of the mineral lands in the Quapaw Agency. If it is not proper for me to do so I can wait until the proper time. 80 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. The Chairman. There is no programme mapped out but it might be a good plan to pursue a subject until it is exhausted before pro- ceeding to something else. Is there any other gentleman present who wishes to say anything regarding this matter of the lands in the Quapaw Agency? STATEMENT OF MR. W. A. KORNEGAY. Mr. KoENEGAY. In connection with what has been stated here there is another matter that has arisen in the Quapaw Agency, that is in reference to the question of marriage. All kinds of laws approved by custom — that is laws regulating the matter and customs under which they act. Congress has attempted — ^has passed acts regulat- ing this question. In these tribes the laws governing the matter de- pend on each particular case. In some of these tribes we will find Indians who have more than one wife. They seem to have a habit or practice or custom in some places of just going together and living together as man and wife without any marriage ceremony, and they will live together that way as long as it proves satisfactory to them, and when it does not they will just part — just quit and go off and take up with and live with someone else, and so on, and in some places you will find an Indian who has two or three wives at the same time, and so we find xmder this Kansas law whereby we have to determine heirships; I think under that law the wife inherits one-half the estate of the decedent, and frequently we find two or three wives and two or three sets of children, and the question is up as to who or which set is the lawful heirs. The Chairman. Are there any divorces ? Mr. KoRNEGAY. No, sir; no divorces in the sense that we under- stand it, but sometimes they are divorced by mutual consent, and sometimes they are divorced entirely by the consent, or rather I should say the will of the man. He wills that there shall be a divorce or rupture of the relation and it occurs. He simply divorces the woman. At times there seems to have been some kind of a ceremony before the council. Now that is the question that comes up there in a good many cases, which has to be determined before the heirship can be, settled. There seems to be no difficulty about the children, for they have all been made legitimate by the statute, no matter what union they are from, but when it comes to the other half there is a great deal of con- fusion and uncertainty. The Chairman. How does the court act where it finds a case of that kind? Mr. Kornegay. Well, we have never gone any further than the master's report on it, and he says that they are good, for the United States statute says that all marriages are validated, and the statute is silent on the matter of divorces; but I think, if the statute means anything, it means simply that the first marriage is a good one, and always remains as the legal marriage, unless dissolved by some com- petent authority. In a recent case up there, however, the court holds — or I ought to say the master holds — that the second wife was the legal one ; and I brought in another case, and I have passed that matter up. Now, this is a matter that ought to be remedied in some way or other by legislation, because that is the condition up there, and I don't FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 81 think such a condition should be permitted to prevail anywhere in the United States. Senator Long. You saj' that the condition you have described should be regulated by legislation ? Mr. KoRNEGAY. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What legislation do you suggest? Mr. KoENEGAY. Well, I haven't had any experience in legislation, and you gentlemen or others who have had experience in legislation can probably solve the problem. Senator Long. I do not mean the exact form of the legislation, but the purpose of it. What, in your opinion, should be the purpose of it? Mr. KoRNEGAY. Well, the purpose should be to fix and define in some way what Congress meant by that law. Senator Long. Can't the courts do that ? Mr. Koenegay. Well, sometimes the court can and sometimes it can't.' I mean by that, that there is no unifomity in the findings. Sometimes it is one way and sometimes another way. We want ii fixed so that it will always be one way. Senator Long. I take it that you mean that sometimes the acts of Congress can't be interpreted ? Mr. KoRNEGAY. Yes, sir; but I did not like to put it that way to you gentlemen. Senator Long. I think we will agree with you that sometimes they can't be interpreted. I have seen such enactments myself. Mr. Koenegay. Well, be that as it may, I hope you gentlemen will discriminate when the time comes to pass legislation, so as not to cover the cases of specific performance, where they get a contract from the Indian. It should all be regulated in a manner that is plain and specific. I think it could easily be done. Now, under the act of 1889, or perhaps it was the act of 1887 — I won't be positive as to which it was, but at any rate it was under some of these allotment acts — there was a clause that no contract should be of any validity until twenty-five years had elapsed ; and there was another clause in the act that the law of descent and distribution of the State of Kansas should apply, but we found that a sale under partition proceedings was not legal, so the Secretary holds, although the law of Kansas, made applicable, says that it is. Our courts in construing this matter have held both ways. On one hand we find a section which says that it is inalienable, and on the other hand we find that it does not apply, so we don't know where we are at, but we believe you gentlemen can find a way out of the difficulty. STATEMENT OF MB. M. M. EDMONDSON. The Chairman. Where do you reside ? Mr. Edmondson. At Miami, Ind. T. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I desire to call your attention to the general mining lease laws of the Quapaw Agency — that is, the laws in regard to mining leases that apply to that agency. I refer to the act passed June 7, 1897, Public Document 3, page 11. Now, I want to present two cases. The law of 1897 gives these people the right to make their own leases without the approval of the Secretary, provided the Secreatry shall have 82 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the supervision or approval of the leases made by minors or old people and imbeciles, or, in other words, persons who are not regarded as competent to transact their own business in a businesslike manner. Now, there are instances where this law should apply, many of them, but in many cases it works a great hardship on people through the delays and technicalities that are interposed. I have in mind one instance, and that is where a very elderly Indian woman makes a lease to her land for a comparatively nominal royalty, and she does not get the royalty that her contract entitled her to until the lessees are required to make a report to the agency. The Chairman. Is that not true in regard to all the leases in the Five Civilized Tribes? Mr. Edmondson. Well, yes; it is true to some extent. The point, however, that I desire to make in this connection is this : Take an in- dividual who is intelligent, but who is old — and there are many Indians as well as white people where age does not interfere with their intelligence. Take the case of an Indian, male or female, who is intelligent if old, and there are young people who are young and intelligent; but the j'ounger individual is influenced by the money consideration which he particularly needs at the time he makes a subsequent contract to the first lease. Now, I have in mind, and my attention has been called to it as an attorney, a case where the lease Avas made for the limit of ten years — it was a mineral lease — it was made at that limit, and in the following year there was an extension made between the same parties cf the same lease, and it was an exten- sion in that way of the ten-year lease, and extended it practically beyond the original limit of ten years. I was a second extension of the same lease. Senator Teller. To what length of time did that extend? Mr. EdmondsojST. The extension? Senator Teller. Yes, sir. Mr. Edmondson. That extended to ten years from date — the full limit. The lease is made for the full limit in 1893, and in 1894 the limit is extended to ten years from that date, and in 1895 it is again extended to ten years from that date, and in 1896 it is again extended for the full limit of ten years from that date — down to July of this year, I believe it is. Now, a new lease is made for ten years between the same parties, commencing in July, 1905, and running to the year 1915. That is one case to which I cite you. That is practically an evasion of the spirit of the law. Senator Teller. Is there much of that kind of work being done? Mr. Edmondson. Considerable — not in the court, however. Senator Long. These lands are zinc lands, are they not? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir; zinc — principally zinc. There is some lead. Senator Teller. Have you the wording of the act? Mr. Edmondson. No, sir; I have not. I simply hold a letter in my hand, a copy of which is embodied in the letter from the Acting Commissioner, and I only refer in my letter to that. Senator Teller. What does he say about it ? Mr. Edmondson. I am not attacking nor do I desire to attack or be understood as attacking the legality or justice of this decision or the law itself, but I desire to point oiit that the law is improper as applied to these Indians. It is not right that lessees should be per- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 83 mitted to make leases in this form, for if thej' are there is in my judg- iDPiit a clear evasion of the intent of the law, for they can make leases in this way to run indefinitely. Senator Teller. They can make leases that will run for forty or fifty years ? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir; for one hundred years as well as forty or fifty. Such a sj^stem practically amounts to a perpetual lease. So you can readily see that the purpose of the law is thwarted which provides that a lease may be made only for ten years. The Chairman. Can you refer the committee to that law ? Mr. Edmondson. I did. It is the act passed June 7, 1897, Public Document 3, page 11. Senator Long. But you have not the language of the law ? Mr. Edmondson. No, sir; I haven't the text of it. In this par- ticular case to which I refer and in which I am interested as an attorney, the royalty prescribed in the first ten-year lease was 5 per cent. It was made to a lessee who resides in one of the States, and that lessee subleased at a royalty of 10 per cent, making 5 per cent clear to himself; that is, the original lessee, by subleasing it, makes a clear 5 per cent ; and then the second lessee makes a second lease, he leases, subleases again to another party, stipulating 15 per cent roy- alty, by which this second lessee made 5 per cent; so it seems that the leaser gets, the original lessor gets 5 per cent, the second lessor gets his 5 per cent, and the third lessor gets his 5 per cent; and the Indian along in 1896 when he got needing money sold out three- fifths of his 5 per cent for $200. Now that is the pittance he sold this valuable lease for, three-fifths of an interest in a 5 per cent royalty for the niggardly sum of $200, and he is an intelligent, educa- ted Indian too. The royalty stipulations in the leases made now are somewhat better, and contracts or leases are made for five acres of ground where there is not a drill hole or a shaft sunk, or valuable development done on surrounding ground proving the land to be in the mineral district. Five-acre contracts in proven ground are selling up there now for a bonus of say from $600 to $1,000 exclusive of the royalty, and yet I have cited you the case of an Indian who sold his right, his right to three-fifths of a 5 per cent royalty in a valuable lease, for $200, and that not on a little 5-acre tract, but on a tract of 40 acres. The Chairman. How long ago was that ? Mr. Edmondson. Well, I don't know just when it was. The first lease was made in 1892, I believe. The Chairman. Was that before it was definitely learned that it was so valuable? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir ;it was not then determined to be so valu- able, but it grew so valuable in 1894 and 1895, and it was extended — the lease was — as I have stated, and by that time it had grown so valuable, for the land had been developed and proved to be very valuable, but these extensions were made from year to year, as I have shown you. Now if this Indian — if this lease originally rnade had been limited to 10 years, and no extensions allowed, the original lease would have expired in 1902, and the Indian could have made a new lease for the 15 per cent royalty, instead of allowing these sublessees to get it, and then the lease of July of this year was obtained, rurming to 1915. 84 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Brandegee. It was three-fifths of this royalty that he sold for $200. Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. What was that royalty worth ? Mr. Edmondson. Well, it depends on how the land is worked. If it is worked energetically and carefully it would amount to a great deal, and if it is not it would not be so much. It all depends on the way the lease is worked. There are three shafts on the 40 acres that are valuable. Senator Brandegee. I know that, but your suggestion is that the Indian sold it for a great deal less than it is worth. Mr. Edmondson. My suggestion is that when these people first leased the land at the time the first lease was made that the royalty paid was probably a very fair and reasonable one for the term of 10 years, for the miner or the person who operated the lease took his chances on not finding anything valuable — he took the risk of finding nothing and losing all the money that he would put in it for develop- ment ; but I say that the manner in which the lease was extended from time to time was practically a fraud on the Indian and an evasion of the law, and in that manner a lease which should have been strictly confined to the 10 years was extended to a period beyond that and into a time when the property had been proven to be very valuable, and a royalty of far more than 5 per cent exacted. The property is becoming more valuable all the time, and as proof of that I have cited the fact that it has been subleased each time at an increase in royalty equivalent to the total amount of the royalty under the original lease. The Chairman. Then, as I understand you, your proposition or argument would settle down to the proposition that these Indians are incapable of managing their own business ? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir ; that is just it. I think in mining mat- ters they require some protection. Senator Clark. These leases don't require to be approved by the Secretary ? Mr. Edmondson. They don't unless they are old people, minors, or imbeciles. The Chairman. Is that a special law? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir; and they all apply to the QuapaM' Agency, or to the Indians in that agency. The Chairbian. So then, under your theory, they have too much liberty in making these contracts, and some sort of restrictions should be thrown around them ? Mr. Edmondson. That is just it — restrictions or protection, which- ever you choose to call it. Now, I think so; I think that it will be more necessary in the future, because of the increased mining opera- tions up there. That is developing into a great mineral country, probably one of the most valuable in the Southwest. In July there were 17 mills at Lincolnville. This is all in the Quapaw country. The Chairman. Do you consider the Quapaws as capable of taking care of their property as the other seven tribes? Mr. Edmondson. The Indians are all able to take care of them- selves in ordinary matters. The Chairman. All excepting the Quapaws? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 85 Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir ; all of them — Quapaws and all in ordi- nary affairs. The Chairman. Excepting in mineral matters? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir; and in that too, excepting when they get hard up, and then they will sell for anything they can get. And the Indians everywhere in that respect are alike, I guess. They haven't any very well-defined conception as to its value, and the value of these mineral lands is probably the most valuable asset of any of the Indians in the Territory — far more valuable in the long run than the oil or gas will prove to be. I really believe that, gentle- men. They will sell anything they have if they get necessitous — if they can get a little money. Senator Long. And they get in that condition frequently? Mr. Edmondson. Some of them do, but not all of them. A great many of them have just about as good an idea of doing business as the average white man — some of them better, in fact^and are amply able to look out for their own interest ; but on the other hand, there are a good many who are not competent to protect themselves. I believe that the law ought to be changed so that it will be construed to mean that no lease may be made for a longer time than ten years, if that is the intention of Congress, and I believe it was. Senator Tellek. You have not been in court with this question ? Mr. Edmondson. No, sir; but I am informed by the Acting Com- missioner of Indian Affairs that the courts have passed on these re- newals and held them to be valid. Under the peculiar wording of that law it might be that some change might be made whereby leases for lands might be made for fifty years or for twenty-five years, but whatever the term is, it should be so stated in a manner that there can't be any dispute about. Mr. Seymour Riddle. It might simplify the matter if I stated that the matter referred to, which the courts decided, was not a mineral matter at all. It was the farming leases that went up from the Quapaw reservation and had nothing whatever to do with the min- eral leases. I am quite familiar with the case. The case to which the Assistant Secretary referred and concerning which the court of appeals had decided was a farm-lease matter, and, as I stated, the mat- ter of the extension of these mineral leases has never been decided, for it has not been before the court of appeals. Mr. Edmondson. Well, this is a sj)ecific case, and I called the atten- tion of the prosecuting attorney to it, and he put it up to the Secre- tary of the Interior, and the Acting Commissioner, Mr. Laird, writes me a letter stating that he has received my letter, and he quotes it and this specific case m reference to mineral leases. The Chairman. Be kind enough to read the letter ? Mr. Edmondson. Yes, sir. (Eeads it.) The Chairman. What is the date of that ? Mr. Edmondson. November 10, 1906. Mr. EiDDLE. Now that is the case to which I referred when I was on the floor, and Judge Gill is here, and he will remember the case of Moore v. Girton. It is in the Southwestern Reporter — the 82d South- western Reporter; pages 848-51. Judge Gill was the trial judge in that case and he will remember that it was a farming case. Senator Teller, Did the Secretary hold that a man who had made 86 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. a lease for two years could subsequently extend it to five years, or ten years ? Mr. Riddle. The holding of the court was in effect this : That the Quapaw Indians had a patent for their lands and that the only re- striction was against alienation; and that there really was no limit on the leasing of lands in the Quapaw reservation for agricultural purposes. That was the case of Moore v. Girton that that was de- cided in. The Chaiejian. The Department also extends that ruling to in- clude mineral lands? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Is there a special law affecting minerals in the Qua- paw agency ? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; there is a ten-year limit put on leases on mining lands or leases in the Quapaw agency, but the court of appeals holds that that. was rather an enabling act instead of a restricting act — the other Indians having received their lands by other acts, each containing different provisions. The Quapaw received theirs in fee absolute, the only condition being that it should be inalienable for twenty-five years. After this act of 1897 was passed, it was the en- abling act, the effect of which applied to the members of the Quapaw tribe. I might suggest that out of the great number of leases over there in the Quapaw agency or reservation this is exceptional, and this particular matter to which Mr. Edmonston refers might be looked at as a special case and one in which the Indian ought to be taken charge of and his property administered for him, for evidently he is not able to do it properly himself. There are such cases, no doubt, there, but the fact that this field has been an undeveloped field should be taken into consideration, and one having lands to lease, either mineral, oil, or gas, can not make as good terms in an unde- veloped field as can be made in fields that are already developed. Large sums of money has been spent in developing that field, and lots of money has been lost, irrecoverably lost, and all these things ought to be taken into consideration. A few years ago, when this deal was made, the matter of the ultimate value of these royalties was purely speculative; and a man who paid $200 for three-fifths of such royalties was perhaps taking his chances on whether he would get anything or not, and the man that got the $200 had it and did not take any chances. The man that paid the money took his chances on whether the royalty would ever repay that money. Of course he knows now that he will in all probability get it back, for of course he has proven the existence of deposits of mineral up there. As I stated, the field has been proven and partially developed — at any rate enough to enable these Indians who owned the land. to receive hand- some royalties on ores taken from their lands ; and *it is a matter of common knowledge that, generally speaking, these Indians are as competent to take care of their affairs as the average white man. Now, that is my knowledge, and I have no hesitation in saying that if this committee had the time to go over there and personally investi- gate it they would come to the same conclusion. Senator Beandegee. Do you think the restrictions ought to be re- moved from the lands of all these Indians? Mr. Riddle. Well, I think that, perhaps, these lands of the Quapaw Indians, as suggested by Mr. Edmondson, thev mieht well be removed. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 87 but there may be some of them that would not know what use to make of their land ; but on the whole I think it would be as well. There might be some of them that wouldn't make a good use of their oppor- tunity, and would squander their property, but you will frequently find white men that will do the same. The Chairman. In speaking- of the Quapaw Indians, do you mean all these eight tribes up there? A. No, sir; I mean just "the mem- bers of the Quapaw tribe. You understand there is the Quapaw Reservation and the Quapaw Agency and the , Quapaw tribe of Indians, and I believe there is a larger percentage of these Indians who are able to care for themselves than in the other tribes. Now, I will state my position. These Indians, the Quapaws, have a larger acreage of land per capita than the other tribes. They have 240 acres each, ajid I think it would be as well to protect them to the extent of say 160 acres each for a homestead. That would give each of them some 80 acres to dispose of and realize money to improve their other land, and still leave them with ample land; or, on the other hand, it might be advisable to let them dispose of 160 acres and hold 80 acres, for 80 acres might be ample for the requirements of a homestead. I believe from my knowledge of the condition of these Indians that the average Quapaw Indian would be better satisfied and better off if he would be allowed to sell all his land down to 20 acres. The fact is that they are not inclined as a class to be as industrious or progressive as their white neighbors. They don't want to take rank with them, but they will go back in the woods and lease their land to white men, and if they only had 20 acres they could not do that. They could not lease it for enough to live on, and they would be forced to live on it themselves. Senator Beandegee. Do you nieaii that it would be wise to remove all these restrictions absolutely from all these Indians besides the Five Civilized Tribes ? Mr. Riddle. As a rule, I believe it would; but as I stated, there may be some exceptions. Take the Miamis and the Peorias and the Ottawas and Wyandottes — I think in the case of those, almost with- out exception, the restrictions might with perfect safety be removed ; and there are the Shawnees, Seneca s, and Modocs Senator Brandegee. What about the Five Civilized Tribes, so called ? Do you think the restrictions should be removed from them ? Mr. Riddle. Well, I would not like to say as to that, for I am not as well posted down there as I am up here. All I know anything about of my own knowledge is up here in the Quapaw Agency, where we don't come in contact with the others to any extent. STATEMENT OF MR. CHESTER HOWE. The Chairman. Please state your residence and occupation. Mr. Howe. I am an attorney, residing in Washington, D. C. I am attorney for the New York Indians who have interests here. Senator Teller. Do you mean the Senecas there ? Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; there are some of them in the Quapaw Reser- vation. I am familiar with their history and surroundings, and I think in any action that is taken in reference to the Indians in the Quapaw Reservation or Agency that they ought to be taken into con- sideration, although I had no idea until just now of mentioning it. 88 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. There is the Cayugas. There are about 100 or 120 of them live in that agency, but they are now incorporated with the Shawnees as a part of that tribe. These Indians sold their land in the State of New York and moved to what is now Sandusky, in the State of Ohio, in 1818, and from there they moved west and came to where Wyandotte, in the State of Kansas now is, before the war, and at the breaking out of the war of the rebellion ; and then this band of Western Cayugas enlisted in the Federal Army, and from money received for their army serv- ices they purchased and paid for the land which they now have the right to occupy in the QuapaAV Agency or Reservation. I beg to cor- rect my statement here; they did go to the Senecas instead of the Shawnees. The amalgamation with the Shawnees was in the allot- ment act. They bought their lands and paid for them out of the money they earned as soldiers in the Federal Army; and I submit that their case ought to receive proper consideration in this matter, for they occupy a more than meritorious position among these people. The Chairman. Were they alloted lands ? Mr. Howe. They were alloted lands the same as the Senecas and Shawnees in that reservation, and these lands have been so alloted to them since about in 1887 or 1888. Senator Long. Well, what do you want? Mr. Howe. Their restrictions removed, and that they be given control of the property that they bought and paid for with their own money. Senator Long. Do you believe they are competent? Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are they as competent and well qualified to tran- sact their business as the civilized tribes ? Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. The Cayugas in the North are, and I believe these down here are just as competent. I believe I will not be criti- cised when I say that these Indians are just as well qualified to transact their business as any white farmer of the ordinary capacity. These Cayugas in New York, and these western people have had opportunities and experience, and if anything, these in the West have had more experience than the ones in New York. The thing I desire to particularly impress on the committee is the fact that they worked for and earned the money that was paid for their land. They did not inherit it or receive it for lands elsewhere, but earned it themselves. That is all, gentlemen. The Chairman. It has been suggested by a member of the com- mittee — the local committee — that there is present in the room several representatives of the full bloods of the Five Civilized Tribes, and if that be true, we would like to hear from them on this matter of aliena- tion of land. If there are none present, we will pass on to something else. Mr. BroDLE. There are some present. The Chairman. We will hear from them. Mr. Evans, of Mus- cogee, I am told, is present and that he will have or has something to present on the question of schools, and pending the arrival of these representatives of the full bloods of the Five Civilized Tribes we will be glad to hear from him. Mr. BiDDLE. Here are the full bloods now. They are ready to be lieard. The Chairman. Very well. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 89 STATEMENT OF EtTEALA HAB.JO, OF HANNA, IND. T. (James L. Gray, interpreter.) By the Chairman : Q. Where do you reside?— A. I live the other side of Hanna, 3 miles. Q. Whom do you represent? — A. The four mother nations have sent me here to represent them. Q. What do you mean by that ?— A. The Creeks, Cherokees, Choc- taws, and Chickasaws. Q. What are you? — A. I am here representing the four mother people as to our original rights. Q. How many people do you represent? — A. Twenty-four thou- sand full-blood Indian people. Q. That is, people without any white or other blood in their veins save red blood? — A. Yes, sir. I am here representing 24,000 full- blood Indian people that don't want to .take their allotments of land. Q. HoAY many full-blood Indians are there in the Five Civilized Tribes? — A. I don't know that. Senator Long. What is he — a Cherokee or Avhat? — A. I am a full- blood Cherokee. By the Chairman : Q. When were you authorized to represent these 24,000 full-blood Indians? — A. Twenty-four thousand full-blood Indians that are in the Indian Territory have got me here to represent them, for they don't want to take their allotments of land in severalty, and they have authorized me to come before you and make that representation to you. Q. How many of them don't want to take their land in severalty ? — A. In the Territory here those of the Indians that are full blood be- li<^ve that they don't want to take their allotments, and although some olt them did it, they have asked me to come here and tell you that they were scared into it. Q. Well, I did not ask you that. How many of them is there — of the full bloods — that don't want to take their allotments? — A. As I said before, these 24,000 full-blood Indians have never consented to take their land in severalty by allotment. Q. Do you mean to say that none of the 24,000 full-blooded Indians in the Territory did not want to take their land in allotments ? — A. I said in the four mother nations. Q. Were you one of the committee of full bloods that was before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs last winter? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you state exactly what these people you represent do want? — A. In the first place, when the white man came into this country he found the Indians and made a treaty with the Indians. The white man and the Indians together made a treaty between each other or with aach other. I am here representing the full-blood Indian people, and the Indians that made that treaty were full blooded. Our Great Ruler has intended that the full-blooded Indian people should own this land forever. We full-blooded Indian people used to live east of the Mississippi River and we made a treaty with the white man. That treaty was made in 1832, on March 24. Our Great Ruler was a witness to this treaty that we had. S. Rep. 5013, .59-2, pt 1 7 90 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Whom do you refer to as the " Great Euler ?"— A. I mean God- God looked upon us all and he always looks on us and sees us and rules us all. Q. Well, go ahead? — A. The Government of the United States made a treaty and signed it Avith Sopoksyolar in Washington, and this land was given to us forever, as long as grass should grow and water run. It was given to us and the Government of the United States has divided the land up without the consent of the Indian people. The Indian people did not know anything about it until the land was cut up, and it was done without their consent. Senator Long : Have you taken your allotment ? — No, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Well, what do you mean or want? — A. I love mj treaty, and I want my old treaty back. That is what I am asking for — the original treaty — I want it back. Q. Well, can't you understand that the great majority of the Indian people having supplemented that treaty by other agreements, and having taken their land in severalty and in some instances this land has been transferred — can't you understand that the Congress of the United States can not at this time nor at any other time give you any inducement to hope that what has been done Avill be undone or that the other acts of Congress that have been passed with reference to this land, and its division among the Indians, can not be repealed? Now you understand what I mean, don't you — the action that has been taken in that regard with reference to the division and allotment of this land is irrevocable and something that can't be undone ? — A. I can not take the allotment. Q. I will explain to you further that since the time of the first treaty, to which you have referred, the various Indian tribes by subsequent treaties or agreements with the United States have con- sented to these divisions or allotments of the land, and the Govern- ment of the United States and the Indians themselves have acted upon these various agreements or treaties. — A. That is about divid- ing our land in our country ? Q. Yes. — A. The Indian people don't want their allotments in severalty, but at the same time some of them take them, for they scared them into it, and that was the way the land was broken up, but they don't want it. The Indian people are weak. They are like children with the white man. The white man can come among us and give us whisky and get us drunk and then he can get us to do anything. When he gets us that way then he takes our land. That is the way it has been done. The full bloods don't want to take allotments. Q. Some of them have done so, though ? — A. Yes ; but they were made drunk or scared into it. Q. How many of the full-blood Indians have refused to take their allotments? — A. I don't know, but it seems to me that the Indian people don't like it at all. When they have taken them they have been given whisky and made drunk, and that is the way they have been worked on. If all the Indian people were asked the question they would answer it in the same way. That is the way I answer for them, and they appointed me to come up here and answer for them. Here is a majority of the white people in this house to tell you what FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 91 e to do for the Indian people, and the Indian people, if they were her_ in the same way, would tell you just as I do what they want you to do for them, if they M-ere asked the questions that I have been asked. Q. Have allotments been made to you, or ha\e you been notified that a certain section of land has been allotted to you? — A. It has been done this way, and I will make the report now : After our coun- try was divided they would send the half breeds around — the half- breed Indians — they would go out and hunt for the names of the full-blood Indians without their consent, and they would take the names down and go and present them before the Dawes Commission, and these half breeds that brought these names before the Dawes Commission would go and take an oath over it. That was the way it was done, and the Dawes Commission itself has taken an oath for the Indians. Q. Have the full-blood Indians been given allotments by the Dawes Commission upon which they have refused to go ? — A. When I get to the end I will tell you. Q. Well, go ahead. — A. These jjeople would not know anything about it, but they would find a certificate sent to them at the post- office. Q. What kind of a certificate '. — A. A certificate of allotment, and they didn't ask for it or want it or know anything about it, but the oath would be taken for them and the certificate sent to them. Q. It is a certificate of the allotment that you refer to? — A. Yes, sir. "^ATien I went to the store one day the postmaster handed me this certificate, but he did not tell me what it was. I took it because I didn't know what it was, but when I found out what it was I re- turned the certificate back again to the Indian agent. The Indian people did not want these certificates, so they gathered uj) a whole lot of them and brought them to me and I took them to the Indian agent. The Indian people are still sending these certificates back again, for they don't want them. They are sending them back to the Indian agent, and that is the reason why I come here to report to the Sena- tors why I am here as a delegate from the four mother nations. By Senator TellLee : Q. I will ask you how many of the Indians, or what proportion of them sent them back? I want to know whether some did not keep these 'certificates — some of the Indians of the full blood — whether some of them did not keep them. — A. I don't know exactly. They are still sending these certificates back to the Indian agent. Q. They are still sending them back to the agent ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. When and how were you selected to represent the 24,000 full bloods in the Indian nations referred to? — A. When this land was cut up or divided up they were issuing them around, and the Indian people did not want them, and they said that they would send someone to you to tell you that they did not want them, and they selected me as their representative. The Indian people think it is this way : The Government of the United. States made a treaty and it said, When you are removed west qf the Missis- sippi Eiver, and when you are there you will never be disturbed, and the Indian people M-an't that treaty and their rights, for the Indian people are still insisting on their rights yet. Our fathers made the 92 FIVK CIVILIZED TRIBES. treaty, and when they make a treaty with me they make it that it shall protect me and my people forever. That was the treaty that my fathers made Avith the Government of the United States, and that is why the people — the Indian people — send these certificates back to the Indian agent. Q. To what particular band of the Indian tribes do you belong? — A. I am a full blood, and I don't mix with any '' nigger " or any white man either, and that is the reason I Avant my rights and my treaty back. Q. Is there any particular band of the Indians that you belong to ? — A. As I explained to you a while ago, I am a full blood, and I say again that what Indian people have taken the allotments, you or the white man has scared them into it and that is the reason they did it, for they don't want the allotments and they don't want to take the severalty of the land. Q. Is there anything else you desire to state? — A. In the Indian Territory there is lots of schools in the Territory. There has always been lots of schools among the Indians ever since we came here, and we were proud of our schools, and our children went to them until the white men came in and crowded us out and took our schools away from us, and it seems to me that the little white childern and the little negro children should not be made to go to the Indian schools that the Indians made with their own money. As long as the Indian had his own schools they A\ere good schools and they Avere proud of them ; but they can't say that any more. Q. Well, why is it that you don't Avant the Avhite and negro children to go to your schools? — A. Well, Ave Indian people haven't much edu- cation in English. We can't speak the English and don't knoAv much about it. We haven't any English education and we don't live like the Avhites, and that is the reason Ave Avant our rights back. Q. Well, Avhat is the reason the full-blood Indians can't send their children to the schools ? — A. The Indian people Avant to be left alone. They don't Avant to trouble the Avhite people. They Avould rather live as they always have lived and be free, and that is the reason Ave Avant our treatj^ and our rights back again. Q. Well, that don't explain why the Indian children can't go to school where the white children go. — A. I came in here a good Avhile ago, and I was sitting back there a long time, but I couldn't under- stand what Avas going on only from Avhat my interpreter Avould tell me. You saAv me sitting back there, and I don't like to come for- ward. NoAv, when I take a little Indian child to school the Avhite man and the negroes Avill go before me to school Avith their children and they will put their children first and they Avill push mine out of school, and that is the Avay it Avill go. It seems that there isn't any room in school for the Indian children and they are the schools of the Indians too, and that is the way it Avill go. We are pushed out of all that Ave had. The full-blood Indian people are pushed out to- day, and they have left their homes and taken what they have, and everything, and are camped out in the woods to-day. The half breeds and negroes are the ones that have taken all the land, and there is nothing left for the full-blood Indian at all. Their homes and their lands are all taken, and noAV the Indians are all outside nearly— the full bloods — and they don't knoAv Avhat to do or where to go. It is going to be cold Aveather after a while, and there is the women and rrVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 93 do the little childi-en and the old people, and we don't know what fo with them or where to get a house to put them in. All the property, such as cattle and hogs and horses — it is all gone, and yve. have not got anything left. We used to ha^■e plenty and more than we wanted, and now w^e haven't got anj'thing. Q. Is that not because you have declined to take your allotments, or make your allotments on the land you have occupied, and having de- clined to make the allotments on that land, it has been allotted to someone else ? — A. They have taken it away from us, and they are in the houses that we built and that are ours. Q. Couldn't you have protected your interest in that land by taking your allotment on it ? — A. The haff breeds and the negroes have taken it all, and it can't come back to us no more. The Indian department in the Territory here don't attend to anything at all for the full- blooded Indian. Q. That is all ? — A. "Well, I am not through yet. I am here asking for the treaty, and the treaty that I am here asking for — I will never stop asking for this treatj^, the old treatj^ that our fathers made with the Government which gave us this land forever, as long as the • grass grew and water ran. I will keep on asking for it, for my old fathers and your old fathers made that treaty with us away back there on the other side of the Mississipjji, and they said that this land out liere was to be ours as a nation for ever, and that is the treaty I want, for we are to have it as long as the grass grows, water runs, and the sun rises, we should have this land, and we are still asking for this land just as the treaty says. Our great-grandfathers had made four white paths leading to Washington City and we have stood in them all the time and are standing there to-day. According to the laws of that treaty, if I wanted an allotment of the land I should have taken one of these little white paths and go right to my white father's house and ask for the land. Q. Is the rest of what you say contained in these papers which you present to us? — A. Yes; and you can examine these papers and see what is in them. STATEMENT OP SAMUEL, liESLIE, OP HANNA, IND. T. By the Ciiaikman : Q. Wliat is your name ? — A. Samuel Leslie. ■Q. What are you — that is, what is your blood? — A. I am a full- blood Creek Indian. Q. What do you wish to say to us? — A. My fathers, I have met you to-day, and I am very glad, indeed, and happy to see you, "for you are my protectors. I want to say that the Indian jDeople did not want to take their allotments and the full bloods who did so were scared into doing it, for they have been arrested and brought down here to Muskogee, and I was arrested, too. (The last statement, " I was arrested, too," is made by the inter- preter, who states in response to a question that he was arrested. ) Q. Well, go ahead. — A. (Continuing). We did not want to make the enrollment, but they made us do it, and we did not want to make the enrollment and we did not want to take the allotments, but they arrested us and shackled us, too. Q. Did you take your allotment, too? — A. I never saw the certifi- 94 ]?IV]i CIVILIZED TRIBES. cate or anything like that. There is no free country, and I haven't any farm any more. The improved land that I had has been taken away, and somehody else got my farm, and I haveji't got any farm at all to-day. Anotlier Avonian got my farm, and she has sold it to a white man, and they have that farm and have been working on it for two years, so I haven't any farm to-day, and that is the way they are treating the poor Indian i^eople to-day. I am very sad, and I hope my fathers Avill try and help the poor Indians. "Q. ^^'hy don't you take your allotment? — A. The reason I did not take it was because I wanted my right and property interest, for I loved them. I love the old treaty, and I want it. Senator Teller (speaking to interpreter). Do you know this man? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Do you know about his farm ? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Of your own knowledge you know about it ? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Where was his farm ? The Interpreter. Eight close to Hanna. Senator Teller. That was in the Creek country ? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. How far from here ? The Interpreter. I don't know. By Senator Teller (resuming examination of Mr. Leslie) : Q. How far is your farm, or the farm that you say was yours, from here ? — A. About 80 or 100 miles. I don't know exactly. Q. Did he have a farm that he worked ? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you work that farm? — A. I had that farm and worked it for a good while. It was about fourteen years that I Avorked it. Q. Has that farm been allotted to someone else? — A. Yes, sir. Q. '\¥ho has it been allotted to? — A. You Avill find the name right in there. Q. Well, do you know the name ? — A. Yes, sir ; a lady by 4he name of Sylumbel. You will find her name right there in these papers. That is the woman that took it. By Senator Long : Q. Where do you live ? — A. Near Hanna. Q. Well, do you live there in the same place that you lived for fourteen years ? — A. On the same place. Q. Right there on the same place? — A. Right there on the same place. Q. Then you have not been removed from your farm ? — A. No, sir ; but that lady has it, and she is working it to-day. Q. That is all. — A. My father has promised me that this will be my home there, and I never moved at all. Q. And you are still there on that same land that you have pos- sessed and worked for fourteen years? — A. Yes; I am still there, but this lady has the land. I have stayed right there. Q. Did anyone try to put you out? — A. They have sold my farm and it is not mine, and I want my fathers to see that I have justice. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 95 Q. Well, answer my question; has anyone tried to put you out of your farm ? — A. Yes, sir ; they tried to put me out, but they never put me out, for I am still there yet ; but they sold my farm, and this lady has it and is working it to-day. By Senator Teller: Q. This woman to whom you refer got the land, did she ? — A. Yes, sir; this lady got the land. Q. It was allotted to this woman, was it? — A. I don't know. It must have been for she has got it. A white man told me that he had bought that farm, and he would put me out. Q. But you have not been put out yet? — A. No, not yet; but that white man says he will put me out soon. Q. Well, he has not put you out ? — A. No, sir ; not out of the house, but they have taken my land away. A white man by the name of R. B. Moon bought it. I will present these papers to you. By the Chairman : Q. "UTio wrote these papers? — A. Some of our boys. Q. Some of your schoolboys? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Creek boys? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did these boys learn to write? — A. They went to school at Eufaula, and some of them went to the Wetempeka school. I am through now. I want to say that the full-blood Indian people don't want to lose their property or their rights, for the white man comes in ovir country and buys the land or they lease the land out. They have taken everything on that ground out there and the poor In- dian hasn't anything left, and we want our fathers to protect us and give us back our land again. They have taken everything — the wood, and grass, and roclf, and everything. In those papers it means specially the home places in our country, for the white man has got everything in that country in their hands — the oil lands, and coal lands, and such as that — -and the Indian people haven't anything, and they are now destitute; 24,000 full-blood Indian people never have consented to any of this. It is all we have and we don't want to lose it, and we want our fathers to get it back for us. It is our prop- erty, and we love our rights. That is all I have to say. STATEMENT OP JOHN GRAY. By Senator Teller: Q. Have you taken your allotment? — A. No, sir. Q. Why not? — A. I have never got any certificate. Q. Are you a full blood ? — A. No, sir ; I am not a full blood. By the Chairman: Q,. Why don't you take your allotment ? You certainly realize, or ought to realize, that the Government of the United States can not go back now and abrogate all the treaty rights established or treaties made since 1832. You must realize that these allotments that are made, and being made, are being made once and for all time. They will not be unmade, and nothing that the United States can do can undo them. Senator Teller. You must all understand finally that we are not 96 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. reviving the treaty of 1832, for we could not do it if we would, and we want to impress upon you that if you don't take your allotments now you will be without any land at all. The Chairman. The only salvation or hope for the Indians is to take the land as it now is — go out and take their allotments out of the land that is still unallotted, or they never will have anything. Say, now, to them, and say it as emphatically as you can, as coming from this committee, that if they do not take their allotments while there is land left for them, they will not get anything, for this is positively the last opportunity. STATEMENT OF ETJFALA HARJO (RECAIiLED). By the Chairman : Q. Did not the Government of the United States and the Indians agree to an abrogation and setting aside of these old treaties? Senator Teller. Ask him if — tell him that most of these Indians agreed to get rid of these old treaties and that that has been done, and we have made new treaties with them. A. The Government of the United States is sitting on the white- chair or seat to-day, and I don't try to tell them to get off that seat. The Government has promised me that it will be my protector and my father, and I want it to be my protector and my father. I have never asked for anything else but this. Senator Teller. I want you to understand, and to know, that this committee and Government is trying to protect you, if you will only let it — it is trying to protect you and all other Indians. — A. The Government of the United States has promised me that, if I would be removed west of the Mississippi River, I would not be disturbed, and now I am here west of the Mississippi River living in my own home. Senator Teller. That is all. — A. I have explained to you that the people are keeping in this country, and I hope that you will do some- thing for me. The Chairman. Just explain to him that the Government is trying to save for him and have him take a piece of land where nobody on the earth or in the heavens above the earth can ever disturb him or take it from him — a piece of land that will be his absolutely, and that the Government of the United States will convey it to him in such a shape that nobody can ever take it from him or disturb him.— A. That is all right. If the Government of the United States had protected me in my original rights I would be willing to do it. To-day I have reported to you all that I know. Senator Teller. I will tell you that every American, when he owns a home or owns a piece of land, gets a title, not to the tribe but to the individual, and that the Government will give him that kind of a title, and that title will assure to him the possession and use of the land forever. A. These are the last words that I am going to say— my fathers will protect me, for they sympathize with me and they will restore my old rights back to me and mv people. Senator Teller. Not unless you take your allotment. Don't be under any misapprehension as to that. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 97 STATEMENT OF BEDBIBD SMITH. (Mr. John R. Smith, interpreter.) By the Chairman : Q. What is your name ? — A. Bedbird Smith. Q. ^^Tiere do you live ? — A. Near Campbell, Ind. T. Q. (To the interpreter). What is your name? — A. John R. Smith. Q. Whe'-e do you live ? — A. I live near Campbell, I. T. Q. (To Redbird Smith.) Are you a full-blood Indian ? — A. lama Cherokee Indian. Q. Are you a full blood or part blood ? The Interpreter. From my experience he must be a full blood. A. I think I must be a full blood ; I don't know, but I think I am. Q. From your experience you must be a full-blood Cherokee In- dian ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, go ahead and state what you have to say. — A. To-day I am more than glad to meet my old fathers. To-day has been intended by our God, who rules over our souls and looks on us, that we should meet together and talk together over the things that trouble the Indians. Now I would like to say a few words, but I am not educated and I can't talk English very well and don't know much about the English and it is hard for me to explain what I want you to under- stand from me. It is hard for me to explain it to you. Q. Yes, Ave know it, Mr. Smith, that is all right. We appreciate Ihe difficulty you are under, Mr. Smith, but go ahead and do the best you can. — A. The people that live at their homes in the different dis- tricts of the Cherokee people of the full bloods have sent me here to- day to talk with you, and to come before your respected committee, that I now have the opportunity to express my remarks to you. The condition of the four nations together, and we the full-blood Indians, there is still a great many of us that still contends for our original rights. We want our old original rights which our grandfathers made; a treaty and agreement with one another in the presence of our God, and declared that we would love it and respect it as we love our God, and we have done so up to the present time. We made that treaty and agreement with the great father that we love at AVashington, and he guaranteed with us when that treaty was made that it would remain as long as the grass grows, trees grow, water runs, and the sun rises and shines. I mean that the United States Government was to be the guardian of the Indians. I live under these respective treaties that have been made between the Govern- ment of the United States and the Indians, and I am resting now under these treaties, but I am suffering from the infraction of them. I have suffered in the past and I am still suffering up to this date. According to the treaty I made with my father I am trying to live in peace and happiness and friendship, and raise my children up in good, and I am respecting these treaties and have respected them up to this time. At the present time the Indian's land is divided up in severalty and that was done without my agreement or consent, for I never agreed or consented for anyone to make any such a treaty and the full-blood Indians never consented to it. I never consented to any 98 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. agreement to divide up my land, and I don't want it divided up. I want the old treaty. When the Dawes Commission was here for the purpose of making the enrollment for final settlement by the allotment of the land, I stood up for my rights. I stood for the treaties and agreements that were made by my fathers with the Gov- ernment of the United States; and I was at home enjoying myself in peace when I was arrested and taken to prison. 1 and several other Indians were arrested and taken together to the Muskogee jail for standing up for our rights — my own old treaty with the United States Government — as I have always stood for it without violating any part of it, nor have I violated any law. By Senator Long : Q. How long did they keep you there? — A. One night. On Sat- urday evenmg thej^ put me in jail and they kept me all night in jail and on Sunday morning they let me out, and then they took me to the commissioner's office and made me enroll against my will. Q. Have you taken your allotment? — A. No, sir; not up to the present time. Q. Do you live at the present time where you used to live? — A. I live on my own improved land, at home. Q. That is the same place where j'ou have lived all the time? — A. Yes, sir ; it is my own improved land and I live on it. Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. About twelve years. Q. Have they tried to take it away from you? — A. No, sir; they have not tried to take my home where I live away from me ; but my people are reporting every day that they are taking the improved land and homes that they have made with their OAvn labor, and made crops on the improved land, and they have taken it away from us; and here now, at the present time, I report the conditions of myself and my people ; and I stand here underneath the father, and in his presence, asking for help and protection from the powerful who are going to take my land from me. I stand here before the father ask- ing for this protection and help as a little child asks for the protec- tion and help of its father — for when a child wants help, where can it go but to its father? And so as a little child I come to you for this help and protection; so I announce to you myself as a little child and look to you, my father, as my protector and guardian. As the iDatent has been issued by the acts of the United States and presented to me, positively, as a Cherokee Indian, I am standing on that patent for the land, and I am standing on all my rights and con- tending for it all as my patent dictates, and I want my land to be in all of the whole nation as my patent directs. This is what I am after and what I want [presenting a photograph of treaty to, com- mittee] . You will see it there as it has been photographed from the deed and the patent. Now, that is all I have to show, but it is a photograph of the patent ; and I show it to you to show you that I respect and keep my own agreement; and I look upon this feather [presenting an eagle feather to committee] — I look upon this feather as my crown, and I will present it to you to show you the respect that we have, as Cherokee Indians, for our treaty. When the treaty was made with the Government of the United States by our great- grandfathers — by my great-grandfather — he took the feather as it was intended by God to help the Indians; and I think it is suffi- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 99 c-ient now, as I have stated: but I will state further that the four nations have withdrawn, so far. The Indians of the four nations sent an application to go before the Government of the great father at Washington city. Theechum- fixio was a delegate, and Eufala Harjo and some others; and the Indians which were appointed as a delegation to go before the Gov- ernment at Washington city, named H. B. Moulton to be our repre- sentative before the Government, and it was told bj^ our attorneys that a bill was framed up by them to go before the Government at Washington city asking what we Avanted; and what is in that bill is Avhat I want before the Government — that is what I want the Government to do for me and that is what I ask the Government to do for me. I am here showing you what are the conditions and wishes of the Indians who are not here, but who are living back home. In the four nations there is about 24,000 Indians that are in sympathj' with me in this thing. The Chairman. Now, I must tell you that this thing which you ask, and which your people ask through you, and which they asked last winter in Congress — this bill will never be passed, for the reason that Congress can not make a law of that sort, and that is the opinion of all the members of the committee here. I will tell you that, however much the Indians may be sympathized with, and I think I voice the sentiment of the committee when I say that you have our profound sympathy — yet notwithstanding that fact there are conditions which exist that can't be removed by any action that the Government will take. You refer to these treaties, and I tell you that the after agreements made between the Government of the United States ancl the Indians, and accepted by both the Indians and the Government, can not now be modified or set aside, and the old agreement or treaty substituted or made effective. I can not impress upon you too forcibly the fact that what you ask for and wish is wholly and totally out of the question, for it can never be; and I wish in the name of the committee as a whole to further impress upon you the absolute importance of your taking your allotment, for if you do not you will soon find yourself without land altogether. A. As I show you our condition and wishes, I say that I never will change ; before our God, I won't. It extends to heaven, the great treaty that has been made with the Government of the United States. Our treaty wherever it extends is respected by the Creator, God. Our nations and governments all look to our God. The Chairman. Tell him that Congress in order to protect him in his farm and the possession of it forever has provided a way for him to make a permanent home as the result of his work ; that we all hope he will agree to the after treaties that were made and thus preserve what he now has. — A. I can't stand and breathe and live if I take this allotment. Under the allotment rules I would see all around me — I see now all around me and all the Indians — people who are ready to grab from under us my living and my home. If I would accept such a plan I would be going in starvation. To take and put the Indians on the land in severalty would be just the same as burying them, for they could not live. I will present this [presenting to committee Exhibit 5] . Now, will you accept that, father ? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Now, tell him finally that if he doesn't accept his 100 riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. allotment, after a while he won't have any land at aU, and he can have it now. Tell him that the law has been passed and can't be changed, and that it won't be changed — ^that is final and positive — and he must accept his allotment unless he wants to go without any land at all. — A. If I accept the allotment it Avon't make any difference. Destruction will overtake me just the same. It would not make any difference. The Indian can't live on allotments. Senator Teller. Not if he takes care of it? — A. I am an Indian, and I know the Indians, and I can't do it. Now, I have a petition here that I want to present. It is a petition from the Cherokee people [presents the paper]. STATEMENT OF WILLIS F. TOBLY. (Interpreted by Stephen Peter.) By Senator Long : Q. Where do you live, or what is your post-office? — A. My post- office is Coalgate, Ind. T. Q. What tribe do you belong to ? — A. Choctaw. Q. Are you a full-blood Choctaw ? — A. Yes, sir. Q (to the interpreter). Stephen Peter is your name? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Are you a full-blood ChoctaAv ? The Interpreter. No, sir. Senator Long. Well, go ahead and let him make his statement. — A. Honorable father, I am glad to meet you here to-day at this hour. We have great trouble in our nation and among our people, and I am here to show you how it is. I am a full-blood Choctaw, and I stand on the treaty between your people and the Choctaw people. I stand on the treaty made between the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in 1832, east of the Mississippi River, when our Great Father of the United States made a treaty and agreement with us that if we would emigrate to the west side of the Mississippi River, to this country, we should forever live in this country, as long as the grass grew and the water ran. I am very much pleased with this treaty, made in 1832, between the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and the Government of the United States, and I am always very much in favor of standing on that treaty made at that time between the United States and the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in 1832. The full-blood Indians of the Choc- taw and Chickasaw Indians never wanted this country to be divided in severalty, and never have consented to anything of the kind ; but these things have been brought into our country, and they give us a great deal of trouble, for they suit the white and mixed-blood Indians, for they are willing for the land to be allotted, but the full-blood In- dians are not willing. All the classes of Indians, the negroes, and all want it, but not the full-blood Indians. These troubles commenced very gradually, and every year they got a little worse and worse, until at last they got the land divided in severalty, but the full-blood In- dians don't want it, and the others do. They don't want their land di- vided or sold at all — the reason we selected Eufala Harjo and James L. Evans to be delegates. These two persons are our delegates;' and when the Dawes Commission came into our country the Indians were ignorant and did not know anything about what it was for, and did FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES, 101 not want their old treaty done away with ; but they tried to scare us into doing what they wanted, for they told us that "if we did not take the land quickly someone else would take it, and they would put us out of it, and they would put us in "jail and make us take it. They scared us that way; and they came out into our country, and with whisky and laudanum they made lots of our people drunk, and got the land that way. Q. Who was it gave the Indians whisky to induce them to take the land? — A. There are the names in there of the men that did that and scared the Indians and caused the trouble [handing papers to Senator Long]. Q. These are the names of the people that scared the Indians? — A. Yes, sir. Q. All these names here ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Seventy-three of them? — A. Yes, sir. Here is the names of other people who did the same thing and gave the Indians whisky and laudanum [handing same to Senator Long] . These names there are the names of some of the persons who came into our country and took our people's land and scared them into giving up their land. Q. Who wrote this ? — A. The people back there in my country who had trouble about their land and homes. Q. Who wrote it? — A. Well, these neighbors that they had trouble with. Q. Do you want to leave those names with us? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Very well, go on. — A. And some of the white men went before the United States, who made this treaty with the Indians, and I me. They took away all our children from their father and mother and made a guardian for them in the United States court, and we don't want it that way. I am still faithful to the Great Father of the United States, who made this treaty with the Indians, and I am faithful to that treaty, and the Almighty God that rules the world, I trust in him, and he will stand as the guardian of my people, for the people and the little ones are beginning to learn something, and the time will come when they will know a great deal more ; but now it is only the little ones that are learning, for the old ones don't know anything. The Chairman. Tell him that the Government of the United States stood by the treaty of 1832 until new treaties were made which changed the old treaty of 1832; and that by the new treaty the Indians agreed to take their land in severalty, and the Government agreed to protect them in their allotments, and the only way for him and his people to protect themselves is to live up to the agreement which was afterwards made between the Government and the Indians by which the land was to be divided up to be alloted. — A. Well, I can't say anything more. That is all. STATEMENT OE JOSEPH FOX. ^ (Interpreter, S. H. Colson.) By the Chairman : Q. What is your name ? — A. Joseph Fox. Q. What is your post-office ? — A. Grove, Ind. T. Q. Are you a full-blood Cherokee ?— A. Yes, sir ; lama full blood. 102 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. By Senator Long : Q. Go ahead and state anything you have to say. — A. I have been delegated by my people to visit you and tell you what they want me to say, but I don't want to worry you by taking up much time. I have brought a petition which you may look over. HOJMEY CeEEK. ChEBOKEE NATION, rinitci. I. T., ^for. 12. 1906. To the Honorable United States Senate Coinwittce: We, tbe undersigued full-blood Cherokees, forward you this memorial by the following committees : Joseph Fox, Rob't Ofield, and James llildebrand. ^Ye request that the alienated land of tbe full-blood Cherokees remain tbe same as passed under the Curtis Act. Enoch Six, Henry Blackfox, Jim Ofleld, James Wright, Sam Suagee. T. J. Rabbit, Jane Busbyhead, Blue Runabout, Ida Six, Will Bushyhead, Cornelius Featherbead, John Ode-Ia-da, John Starr, Busbyhead Ofield, Ellie Snell, Jim Runabout, Joseph 0. Snell, Judge Jones, Charley Snell. Sarah Osawi, Jesse Bushyhead, Luciuda Starr, Susan Suell, Rachel Snell, Sarah Snell, Maggie Bushyhead, Nancy Snell, Wilt Taylor, Jennie Jones, T. I. Musk- rat, Willie Sulcer, AVhite Runabout, Joseph Fox, Juo. Bushyhead, Bobt. Ofleld, Celie Welch, Myrtle Smith, Charlotte Runabout, Henry Hummingbird, Jack Grasshopper, Sam Lacie, John L. Raven, Joe F. Raven, Sprow Sulcer, Dave Handle, Lucy Sulcer, Anna Wright, Lucy Raven. Joseph Fox: My speech will differ, perhaps, from those spoken here before. I respect all treaties and love my country and my peo- ple, and the people of the country, and wish always to remain so. The treaty of 1866 specifies that the Cherokee people any time they want their lands taken in severalty can have them, and that the Cher- okee council should make application to Congress for that purpose, but since the Cherokee council ceased to exist then that matter was left with the people of the Cherokee Nation. It Avas a matter of choice with the Cherokee people whether they wanted to have their lands taken in severalty, and the majority of the people said yes, while I was in the minority and I voted " no." After the treaty had been ratified, knowing that I was beaten in the matter, my first step was to secure land for myself and my family. I did that because I knew I was beaten and that I would have to take the land, so I took it. Q. You took the land knowing that a bad bargain had been made? — A. Yes, sir. I knew that that was all there was for me to do about it, so I took it. I consoled myself with the idea that that treaty said that I was to have my land for twenty-one years, and I would not be allowed to make any disposition of it, and I thought that, perhaps, it was a good thing ; but if the restrictions are removed from the land, those that are placed on it under our present treaty, then that is a violation of our treaty. From what I can understand, if the restrictions are removed from my land then I will become a taxpayer, and my land will be taxed. The full-blood element of our people are opposed to the removal of restrictions for several reasons. One said that all will become taxpayers, and another said that all would get rid of their land and that soon none would have any of the land if the restrictions are removed, and would have nothing. I have brought that paper here for the purpose of showing you what the views of our people are, and that paper expresses their views- expresses the views of the people of our community, and I feel that I FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 103 will have done my duty when I pass it on to you and you read it and fix it so that it may be read to other people, so that the other people may know the wishes and attitude of the Cherokee people on this matter. One principal cause of this is because all people don't understand — they don't understand how it is done — they don't understand barter- ing land or dividing it up, and they don't know what is theirs and what is someone else s. They can*'t understand what it all means and they don't know what the restrictions are, and they have been so mixed up in the past that they would like to have things remain as they are and nothing done until some future time. Perhaps in the future, as it is stipulated in that treaty, these restrictions may be removed, but we believe that the restrictions should remain on the land for 21 years, and in that time we will be learning all the time and will probably be in a position to understand what the laws and these restrictions are, and we will understand better the conditions under which we will have to live, and probably be able to derive some bene- fit from our lands. "We believe in the cases of full bloods, where they become old and feeble and there is no one to take care of them — we believe that for such there should be some law enacted that Avould allow these old and feeble people to sell their land and get the benefits from it in their old age. Let them sell their surplus so they can get the benefit of it in their old age and reserve for them their homesteads. Now we ask one f a\'or of the United States courts or Government, and that is to pass a law — never to pass a law that will allow a Chero- kee Indian to dispose of his homestead during his life time. "V^Hien he dies it would have to be disposed of, but Ave ask the Government never to pass a law that will allow him to do so in his life time. If I should die, then my children would inherit my homestead as an inheritance, as a homestead, and they would forever inherit it and own it. My reasons for making this statement to this honorable com- mittee is because I have been sent here bj^ my people to do so, and in doing so I am proud to know that I have done my duty and that is all I can do. While we of the full-blood element don't understand all these things as we should, we hope in time to understand them pretty well. However, the half breeds are better posted and know more about these things than we do. That is the reason we don't want our larid in severalty, for we don't know or understand about these things, and don't know what to do, but we hope in the future, as I said before, to have a better understanding on these subjects. The longer we live and the more we learn about them the better it Avill be for us. Again, if it should be so that the law can't be passed in any other way except to allow us to have our restrictions removed by application and so on, I am not averse to that situation, although I would prefer, and my people would prefer, that the restrictions be made so they can't be removed on the full bloods, except, as I said, in the case of very old and feeble people who should be allowed to dispose of their surplus lands, but not their homesteads, so they would have the means to pass the few days remaining to them in comfort. It don't take much to keep an Indian in comfort, and if there is no other way to do it it should be done that way. One reason why we don't think it would be wise to allow us to sell our lands is because the allotments are small ; the average is about 80 acres, and that is too small almost 104 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. to allow US to make any disposition of it to advantage. The land is not all of the same quality, for some of us get our land here and some there, and it is all mixed up, and on the average it is not possible for anyone to get 80 acres, all of which is good land, for some of it is poor land, and it is no more, even if it was all good land, than we want for a homestead. Now, I won't take up any more of your time, for I know that your time is precious, and I hope you will pardon me for the little time I have taken to make these short remarks. I felt that I ought to come before you and make this statement, so you will know how the full bloods feel about these things. That is all. The commitee took a recess till 8 p. m., when it reconvened. STATEMENT OF OSWAT PORTER. By the Chairman : Q. Where do you live? — A. Conway. Q. Is that in the Indian Territory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In what nation do you live? — A. Chickasaw Nation. Q. You ai-e a Chickasaw ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you a full-blood Chickasaw? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is it you wanted to talk about? — A. I will explain what I want to talk about, but I don't know that I can talk with you to-night. I didn't know it when I came up here. Q. Go on and state what you want to say, and make it as short as possible. There is no restriction on what will be said here or who may say it, but we want everybody who has anything to say to make it as short as possible, for our time is limited and we have a great deal to do. Senator Teller. Go right ahead and make your statement, for this is the best time you will find to make it. — A. Oh, father, I come here to-day with a heart that is happy and glad to come before my fathers. I am a full-blood Cherokee, and I come here because I love my Gov- ernment and my people, and I love the laws, too; and also I come here because I am selected as our delegate to attend to this business. ' I urged that our delegation go and see our father and attend to this business, and that is the reason that brings our committee here, be- cause our fathers are here. It has been said that our country will be divided, and it is divided, but I never have consented to it and the full bloods of my nation haven't consented to it. I never consented that our country be divided at any time. I say here in your presence that we have 24,000 members who never at any time have consented that our country be divided. And the land that our fathers were living; on to the east of the Mississippi in the old country of the Chero'>:33s, at the time that our old father came to us and asked for this country for us, for he came out here and looked at it and saw that it was a good country and asked for it, for our father at Washington came to us and told us that there was land out to the west of the Mississippi that we could have forever as long as the grass grows, water runs, and sun rises, for the land that we loved back east of the Mississippi in our old home, and our father told us to come over here west of the Mississippi and make our home here in this land and live there forever ; and he said, " If you will go over there west of the Mississippi and make your home there, you will never be troubled with us Or we with you ; " and our FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 105 father said, " We never Avill follow you into that country or try to bother you in anything ; " and we Mere bothered in that old country with the white man, and so we agreed to come out here west of the Mississippi and take this land here, hoping that the white man would never bother us again; and our father said that no other tribes or citizens of the United States should bother us in our home here, and he told us that we must look upon him as our father and protector, and he said, " If you tell me all your troubles, and tell the truth about it, I will help you and I will stand b}^ you and protect you ; " and the great father said " if you never loose your hand from my hand I will never loose my hand from your hand," and he told me that he would be the great father to me alwaj's forever. So I made this agreement — my father did for me — and that is so I come here before you to-day and explain these mattersto you. Now, I am like this : I am like a child, when it falls it looks to its father for help, and I am in trouble and I look upon my father for help. I am in trouble, something like that what you call fear, and it comes upon me and alarms me so much that I turn to my father for protection. And as it is with me, so it is with all the other classes of people in my country. We don't want our country divided up, and Ave don't want any part of the country of the Indians to be divided up. This thing that is upon us now is brought upon us on account of the mixed bloods and other classes of people who bring all these things and troubles on us now. I am a full blood and I know what the full bloods think. I am a full blood and I know what the full bloods want, and I know that I have not ever wanted our country to be divided, and I know that none of the full bloods have ever wanted it divided. I have been loving my own mother, and I love this country as I love my mother, for it is my mother. I love it as I love my own father. I love its hills and mountains, and its valleys and trees and rivers, and every- thing that is in this country. I am still here before you, my father, humbly asking for your help, and humbly asking you to protect me and my people. We are poor and ignorant, but we know that we love our country, and have confidence in our father's protection. I am faithful and my people are faithful, and we trust that our old original rights will be restored. Q. Have you taken your allotment? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you live in the same place you have been living for the past ten or fifteen years? — A. I am still living on the same place now for 24 years. I just had a little patch of my own. Q. And you still are there in the same place ? — A. Yes, sir ; I never depended on no big farm or any thing of that kind. Q. Have you been interfered with in the possession of that home? — A. I have been under fear all the time about that home. By the Chairman : Q. Well, why don't you take this allotment — why don't you take your allotment and so remove this fear? — A. I believe the old treaty between the United States and the Indians never told me that I must take a piece of ground. My father told me to come west of the Mis- sissippi River, and that if I would I could make my home there for- ever. And my father told me that no other man or other tribes would trouble us if we did not trouble them, and we have kept our treaty and S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 8 106 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. haven't troubled anyone, but they have troubled us. Our father told us to let him know if other men bothered us, and we did let Kim know, but they kept on bothering us, and it got worse and Avorse all the time; and my father said, at that time, he told me : " If you will trust me, I will trust you the same," and my father said : " Take these and they ■will never wear out " (producing two medals of silver). He gave us these and showed the patent to us, and gave his hand so that we would forever be friends. That is what our father did — he gave us his hand and that patent together. That is the same patent that showed that my father trusted in his word, and looked as his word as the truth. My father never told me that after I got west of the Mississippi I must take a piece of ground for myself; he never told me that. Before we came west of the Mississippi River here we held and managed all these things; and my father told me that if I really Avanted this business done right I must sign my name ; and that old Indian fore- father was at Washington on this business. In the first place, these things (medals) were carreid over here by an old chief or man named Thehola. He was the old chief. . They laid just that way. My father was next, and he said : " Have you one of these things so it is a wish," and I went to my father and said — I said these words, and my father said ; by that time both parties had a bow and a wit- ness, and when they all got together they all went to the office and signed everything. Now, on March 24, 1832, that was, for that was when the treaty was made, and they made a promise between them — our father and the Indians — that that treaty should remain forever between the Indians and our father; and this is what was clone through all this. It is what is called the light path, and it is a wide and broad path, and this means that nothing but the full peace Avill be between us forever; and my father was his own seed, and it shall be done and carried out that way, and my father said, " Let my and your sons enter on this bright and narrow path," and when I come west of the Mississippi into this land it shall be his home forever and ever in which to raise his children and in which he will have a home always. That was what this treaty promised him if he would come west of the Mississippi. The treaty promised the Indian that he should forever, with his children, have a home on this propertjr. Q. Well, what do you want now? — A. I want nothing but these old original rights. That is all I want, as was promised me in the treaty. Q. You want your rights under the original treaty, then? — A. Yes; that is what was promised my grandfathers forever, and that is what I want. The Chairman. I will tell you that after 1832 your fathers and the Government of the United States made other and different treaties and agreements. They made treaties and agreements by Avhich it was agreed and stipulated that the land should be divided up and each Indian receive his portion, and that while there was different agreements or treaties made, the last treaty is the one that must stand.— A. I know that is what they say, but the full-blood Indian never agreed to that. They never said that before at all. Q. Never agreed that the lands should be divided?— A. That is what I mean. We don't want the land divided. I say that we full- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 107 blood Indians never agreed at all to a division of the lands. We want the old treaty to stand — we never asked for anything else at all. Q. Well, did not the tribe vote on it altogether — vote on the ques- tion as to whether they wanted to divide up the lands? — A. They voted, some of the so-called Indians did, but the full bloods did not. The ones that voted were the half-breeds and the one-fourth and one- sixteenth Indians, and the whita people that got into the nation voted, but never the full bloods. It was these people that call them- selves Indians, and the negroes, that voted. Q. Did not the majority of the tribe ratify the Atoka agree- ment? — A. Not a full-blood Indian ever voted. Q. That is all. You are through, are you not? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller: Q. Where did you get these (medals) ? — A. That is what my forefather brought from ilississippi over here. He said to me, " You always keep these, for thejr are in the Indian treaty at Wash- ington." This patent shows that my father told us that we Avould never be bothered any more. Q. So they were brought here from your old home in Missis- sippi? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Is that all? — A. Yes sir; but I want to say that I am well pleased with you to-night. I am just as well pleased with you as I am with my own son. I never ask you for what some other people or somebody else want, but I ask you for my own rights, and that is all I ask for. The Chairman. It has been suggested to the committee that it is quite possible that much time is being taken in this locality in hear- ing from full-blood Indians from their nations. I would say this, on behalf of the committee, that our desire has been and is to meet at the most convenient point the people of the Territory irresj)ective of condition in the most natural and convenient place for the people; but it is apparent that many people have come to this jjoint from other nations, and that the matters which they present could be more properly presented at some other point. It is the desire of the com- mittee not to leave the Territory until all the people who have any- thing to present shall have an opportunity of doing so at a point most convenient to their residence, to the end that there shall be full and complete hearings. I make this explanation in view of a note that has been sent to the committee. Are there any other of the full- blood Indians present who desire to be heard ? If so they may come forward and we will hear them now. STATEMENT OF JOHN COKNTASSEL. By the Chairman : Q. What is your name ? — A. John Corntassel. Q. What is your post-office address? — A. Vinita. I want to ask you one question. Q. What is your question ? — A. Well, I ask for an interpreter, for I haven't much of an education. 108 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. Well, you have done pretty well. You do not seem to be much in need of an interpreter, so you can go ahead. I do not think the committee will have any trouble in understanding you — A. All right. I'll do the best I can. Q. How far do you reside from here, or do you live here in Vinita ? — A. No, sir ; I don't live here. I resided east of here about 35 miles, and that is the place Avhere I was born and raised. I don't reside there now, for I reside west of here about 8 miles now. Q. Wliat is your age ? — A. I am 56 years of age. I am out there where I live now about eight years. Q. Are you a Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Full blood ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Now you may proceed and make any statement you desire to make. — A. I am sorry for it, but I haven't much education; never had much chance to get an education, and I wish I had it now, for I want to say something to you and don't know how to say it. If I could speak English as well as the rest of you I could do it; but I think I can't, because I haven't enough education. Q. Oh, go ahead. You are doing very well. — A. I am afraid that I might say something to you that I oughtn't to say. All I state is, these tribe of Indians that have spoken to-night by their men, I am sorry for them, for my opinion is not the same. I come before you, and glad I am that I am before you. I am glad that'you are willing to hear every full-blood Cherokee Indian. I don't agree with them. T was disposed not to pay much attention to these full bloods before — that is, to what they say. The point that I like is the Cherokee Nation, and I don't know any- thing about how the Indians feel except in the Cherokee Nation, and I am a Cherokee myself, and I know something about it, I think. I ought to. I have lived here among them all my life, and I am one of them. I don't know anything about the rest of them. The state- ment that was made here before you, I don't know anything about it. I suppose these Indians feel the way they say thej' do about it. My opinion is that in this Cherokee Nation a treaty — a responsible treaty — was forced on us, and we have to take it as it is. It was forced on us, in my opinion, and I don't think the people knew what they were doing. I believe they were deceived and fooled about it, and I believe that was a mistake — a great mistake. Neither the United States should be regulated nor the people forced to do a thing they don't want to do, and so I say the treaty ought not to have been forced on the Indians, for that was about what was done, and so we have this trouble and this little rebellion. Well, it ain't strange. I have been expecting it all the time. I knew it would come, and it has come. Now, I think I know something about Indians. I'm one myself, and I ought to know. Now, I was down in the Choctaw Nation in '61, and I was in the Chickasaw Nation when I was a boy, and I came in here along about '64 or '65, when I was a little bit of a boy and didn't know very much, for I was too small, and it was true then, and it's true now. I say I don't know nothing about this tribe of people. The Choctaws and the Cherokees say — I don't know how they voted on this thing about dividing their land — " alloting," as it is called — T don't know how they voted, and I don't see how this thing was car- ried, for so many of them say they didn't vote for it. It is funny to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 109 me, but they say it was carried and the people voted that way, but I don't knoAY. There may be some crooked work about it — mind you, I don't say there is, but there may be, for lots of funny things have been down here. Anyway, no matter how that is, the thing is done and it can't be undone, so we ought to take it and go ahead and do the best we can. In the Cherokee Nation we had a constitution and laws and government and we knew what we were doing, and I think that the vote, or most of the vote on it, Avas really carried. We ^'()te here on most every old thing — on councillors and prosecuting attorneys, and most all kinds of officers, and in our nation I don't think there was anything Avrong, for 1 think always with the Cherokees the high- est vote carries it; but in the other nations it might be different, but I don't know anything much about them. Now that Avas the con- stitution AA'e had in the Cherokee Nation. Well, in regard to the treaty— in 1832 and '34 and '35, and in 1767 and along in there away back before 1832 — I read all about it, not in the English but in the Cherokee, for I no can read English. Well, there is not any use talking about it. These treaties were made, but like all the other treaties they did not amount to a hill of beans. There is no use in talking about these old treaties away back there, but I think there is a treaty that we ought to talk about, and that is the treaty of '66. That is the first treaty that it is Avorth Avhile to talk about noAV. It Avas in 1866, on the 10th of July — ain't that right? — that treaty was made. I think that's right — Avell, if it ain't it Avas right about that time. We don't all agree about it, for there is dif- -ferent Indians that deny it; but Ave had laAvs then such as we have in this Cherokee Nation. I don't know AA'hether the other nations had the same laws or not, but the Cherokees had them, and of course as we ran our government ourselves aac A^oted on it. All these things, Avhen the Cherokees voted on them and they were carried, became laws, of course. Now, that is what we done in this Cherokee Nation. Noav, I want to say that there is one thing that I am glad of, and that I am satisfied with, and that is that the United States Government runs our affairs in the way it thinks best and for our benefit, and while the Government in all it does don't satisfy the Indians, I am satisfied' that, after all, what was done was the best thing that could be done at the time, and it is all turning out all O. K. A good many of them complain, but they'd complain anyAvay ; but they want the old treaties kept up, and they ought to see that things are getting in such a fix that it couldn't be done, and what's the use in trying to do something that can't be done. Now, in '66, on the 19th of July, all these Indians they changed their government. Ain't that Avhat he said there? I am not an educated man, but I can talk a little, but I can't always say Avhat I Avant to say, but if I could read English it would be all right, for I'd get the books and papers that tell how it was done. This is what I say all the time myself, and I am a full-blooded Cherokee myself — anyway I knoAV I ain't any half blood or nigger — not much. Now what is the reason the lest can't attend to what we do in this Cherokee Nation ? It is the fault of the Gordon treaty. We have to vote for it or go off and lay doAvn, and that is the end of it. That is the rule. Is that right? I say no, it ain't right. And so you have these Cherokees like were up here a little while ago speaking for the old laws, for the old laws are simple and they know what they are ; they can understand them all right, 110 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. and they want them, and it is not funny that they want them. Wliat are we worth if we can't run our government ourselves ? "We have run our government ourselves, and we ran it well, for the Government men said we did, and no matter what they said, we knew Ave did. But that was not law like it is now. This country is opened up and the whites are in here, and we must have laws to suit them, and our old laws didn't suit them, for the laws that suit the Indian won't do for the white man, but I say the white man is here and there has to be laws for him, for he can't understand the white man's laws any better than the white man can understand the Indian laws. The white man, it was promised us by these old treaties, wouldn't be allowed to come in on us, but they did come whether or not, and they are here, lots of them, thousands of them — more of them than there is of the Indians — and they are going to stay, for we know that where the white goes he stays; so he is here, and I am glad to say that the laws are being made for them, and I think it is right that they ought to be made for him, and I believe after a while the Indians will get so they will understand them. The laAvs that we had in the old times were very good for us, and we liked them, but times are not as they were then and the laws that were all right then are all wrong now. I don't find it any trouble to keep the laws. It is easy done — the white man's laws as well as the Indians. I am 56 years old, and I never was guilty of anything. I never broke the laws and got in trouble. No one has ever accused me of stealing anything any way. I never was in no " coolers," any way. Why is it that he is restricted ? If he don't pay any attention to the law is he going to be put in the " cooler ? " No, sir ; not if he knows what to do. You see it is who he is if he is going to be put in the " cooler." Is it because that he was guilty that he was put in the " cooler ? " Yes, sir; it is because he was guilty and violated the law and was arrested that he was put in the " cooler," and there is lots of men around here all through this Indian country, where if there was a good man to prosecute them and a good man to get after them and arrest them, there is lots of men down here who would pretty soon be in jail. That is all I can say now, and I am glad that there is a Gov- ernment here to run our government. By Senator Tellee : Q. Do I understand you to say that you want the United States to run this government for you ? — A. Yes, sir ; and I will tell you why. The old Indian government suited me pretty well, but we had a vote on it about Avhether the Government of the United States should run it or not, and it was carried, and I am glad that it is done. By Senator Long : Q. You are in favor of allotments ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you take your allotment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How much of an allotment have you? — ^A. I have an allotment of 400 acres for myself and my family. By the Chairman : Q. You voted at these elections? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And they were carried? — A. Yes, sir. Q. By a majority vote? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Ill Q. And that was all done in the way the laws of the Cherokee Nation pointed out ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And these treaties were afterwards ratified in the customary and legal way according to the laws of the Cherokee Nation? — A. Yes, sir. Now, I want to tell you that it was clone against my con- sent, for I always voted against it, but it was carried by a majority of the votes, and that satisfied me, for I am with the majoritj' every time. Now, I am going to say another thing, and that is about what these restrictions seem to me to be like. They are all tied to it — these half breeds are tied to it, and I am just as much tied to it as any half breed, and I am a full-blood Cherokee. Now, I want to say that you can't fix and suit all these people at once. Some of these old ladies and old men are so fixed in their ways that they can't see it right. They don't understand how it is; but I think if you just give them time they will come around to it. At any rate they are old and they won't be here much longer. Some of them don't want to take their land and won't do it, and some of them have taken it ; and now about the restrictions. Some of these people are old and ignorant, worse than I am Q. You are all right? — A. Well, I know I am ignorant, but I can see some things. Some of these people — a good many of them are old and they are ignorant, and it might be wrong to remove their restrictions. Q. Have you had your restrictions removed? — A. No, sir, I haven't, and I don't want them removed ; but I want it kept so that they can be removed, for I might want it that way after awhile. I don't need it now, but I might need it by and by. If you had it too close, so that I could not get them removed it would not suit me at all, for then I'd want them removed, but as it is I can get them removed, and I don't want it done. By Senator Long: Q. If you couldn't get it done you'd want it, but as you can get it done you don't want it ? — A. That is it. Q. Do you think the restrictions should be removed from these full bloods? — A. I don't think they should. Q. Do you think that they are qualified to transact their own busi- ness and take care of their property ? — A. Some of them are, but lots of them are not. Q. Do you think the half breeds should have their restrictions removed? — A. Yes, sir; if they were wanting it and were willing to ask for it they could have it done. Q. Well, what do you mean by that ? — A. I don't know that I said it right, but it should be the same for both. By the Chairman : Q. You mean that if the restrictions are removed from the half breeds that it should also be removed from the full bloods ? — A. Tes, sir; they are all the same. One is able to look after his as the other, all excepting some of these old ladies and gentlemen. By Senator Long : Q. Don't you think that some of these full bloods would sell their land for less than it is worth?— A. Well, I don't know about that because that is something the Government is to see about. 112 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. You mean that it should be the duty of the Government and the Government should exercise the duty of seeing that they would not sell their land for less than it is worth? — A. Yes, sir; they have to get the right to sell it, and when they get the right the Government ought to see that they are getting what it is worth. The Chairman. I don't understand that he wants his restrictions removed unless the mixed Indians will agree to it. — A. I want it the same on both. There is one thing that the committee ought to know about and that is the guardianship on children. The Indian wants to have the guardianship of his own children. Q. The guardianship of his own children ? — A. Yes, sir. There is some kicking on that, for the way it is now they have to be ajjpointed by a trust company. That is one thing that I don't like, for I think we are smart enough to give bonds for each other the way we used to, and it was all right then and ought to be all right now. Q. Your idea is that the parent of a child ought to be allowed to act as guardian of the child's estate ? — A. Yes, if they have an estate. Plenty of them have an estate or an allotment, and the parent should be allowed to act as guardian and give their neighbors or friends as bond for it. Q. So you prefer to have the guardianship in the family rather than outside of it? — A. I don't understand. Q. I say you would rather have the guardianship of your family in the family rather than outside of it? — A. Yes, sir. If they have land and we all who have taken allotments have land, and it is in the neighborhood, we would rather look after it ourselves. I don't be- lieve that we ought to have to go to the trust companies to buy an appointment. It don't seem to be right. Q. Now, the committee has heard numerous complaints regarding the expense attendant upon guardianships of minor children. Do you know anything about that ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you thought anything about that? — A. How is that? Q. Have you ever thought that an absent guardianship cost too much, and ate Ui3 a-n estate ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. "Well, have you thought out any remedy for that? You say 3'ou think that it costs too much, and now I want to know if you can think of anything that would be a remedy for that condition ? — A. Well, we know that it costs so much often that there isn't anything left for the child. Some years we have it and we don't get anything at all. We might get something out of it and we might not. We never can tell. If we are guardians we have to have a trust company for us, and we don't think that is right. By Senator Teller: Q. You think that you yourselves might be guardians and that you could get your neighbors to go on your bonds, which would obviate the necessity for a trust company going on the bond? — A. Yes, sir. Q,. When the bond is made by a trust company the estate' has to l^ay for it ? — A. Of course it pays for everything. Q. And you think that your neighbors should be permitted to sign the bond with you ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Won't they let you do that now?— A. Yes, sir; of course, but it isn't legal. A good many of them will do that, and they believe it when they take them of course. Of course I don't believe in doing it riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 113 unless I have to. I believe I can get my neighbors on a bond if I need it, but I don't know that I need it. Q. Do you know of many full bloods who have refused to select their allotments? — A. Yes, but I don't believe that I can name many. Q. There is some full bloods who have refused to select their allot- ments ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But you don't think there is many? — A. No, sir; not a great many that I knoAv, but there is some. Q. Well, some full bloods do take their allotments? — A. Yes, sir; some do. Q. ^Vhich is the most numerous, that is in numbers, which take their allotments the most, the half breeds or the full bloods? That is, which, of the half bloods or the full bloods, in percentage, take their allotments? — A. They get their allotments. Q. No, no ; that's not it. "\'\liich among your Cherokees, of the full bloods and the half breeds, in each case which is there the most of that do take their allotments? That is are there more full bloods take their allotments than there are half breeds; and by half breeds I mean the mixed-blood Indians, the ones that are not pure Indian ? — A. Well, I guess thej? are just about alike as far as that goes. Q. About as many mixed bloods take their allotments as there is of the full bloods that take them? — A. Yes; I think there is just as many, about. Q. Is there not more mixed bloods than there are full bloods, or is the reverse true? — A. You want to know if there are more mixed blood Indians than full bloods ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Just about the same. I Avould say that the full bloods are just about as many as the half bloods. Q. When you say half bloods, do you mean Indians whose blood is mixed ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I don't believe that you understand the question, for my infor- mation is contrary to that. A Voice. There are about 33,000 or 84,000 mixed bloods, and there are only about 7,000 full bloods in the Cherokee Nation, as is shown by the enrollment; so the mixed bloods are, as compared with the full bloods, about four to one. The Chairman. That is all. Mr. CoENTASSEL. Thank you for your attention, gentlemen. STATEMENT OE RICHARD GLORY. By the Chairman : Q. What is your name ? — A. Eichard Glory. Q. Where do you reside ? — A. I live on Spring Creek out here in the country. Q. In what nation is that ? — A. The Cherokee Nation. Q. What is your blood?— A. Full blood. Q. You are a full-blood Cherokee ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, kindly go right on and make such a statement as you care to make to the committee in regard to the matters in which you are interested or desire to speak of to the committee — that is, such matters as in your opinion your people are interested in. — A. Gentlemen, I don't come before you as the Pharisees did, but I do come before you 114 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. as the Publican did; and I do not wish to talk with you or detain you any longer than is absolutely necessary ; therefore, I believe that with a very few words I will be through. I am here before you, gen- tlemen, representing the full-blood element of my people, and what I shall say upon this subject will be based upon experience and observa- tion as to the feeling and condition of my people. I wish to impress upon you gentlemen composing this special Senate committee that you are down here on a mission, the chief purpose of which is to hear the different opinions of the people. You are here for the purpose of receiving these views, and I am here be- fore 3rou now for the purpose of presenting my views and the views of the people I represent. In the original agreement that was made there was a provision in that agreement that we could sell our land within live years from the adoption of that agreemnet. Only the surplus land could be sold, of course, and the homestead was reserved. Only last winter the Congress of the United States enacted laws to the effect that they prevented us from selling our surplus land on any terms for the term of twenty-five years — that is, the laws enacted last winter prevented us from selling or disposing of any of our land, surplus of homestead, for the term of twenty-five years. Senator Long. That is, a full-blood Cherokee could sell his land in five years from the date of the first patent, or from the date of the agreement ? Mr. Gloey. From the date of the adoption of the agreement. Senator Long. From the date of the issuance of the patent? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. Senator Long. He could sell in five years from the date of the patent ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir ; I think it was on the 7th day of August that the agreement was made. Senator Long. Yes, sir ; but it was from the date of the patent that the restrictions extended, and they extended only five years from that date, and that did not apply to the homestead. After five years he could sell his surplus land. Mr. Gloky. Yes, sir; and the homestead should be reserved, of course. Senator Long. And it was reserved under that treaty? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. Now, I think, or have the opinion, and that opinion is based upon my experience and observation of my own people — I am of the opinion if the Indians are given a chance to dis- pose of some of their surplus land they would have money with which to improve their homestead, and that, I think, would be an advantage to them, for it is plain that if they are not allowed to do this the majority of them will not do anything toward improving their homesteads. An Indian is not like "a M^hite man. I am one of them myself and I know. They are not as industrious as a white man usually is, and they are handicapped by having a lot of land that they can't do anything with, for they haven't any start, and they won't get a start unless they can dispose of their surplus land, or enough of it to get some money to make improvements on their homesteads. If (hey could do this they would have a start and something to live on. Another thing, I think that the condition of some of the Indians should be taken into consideration. Some of my own people are to FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 115 getting very old and helpless ; they are very mature in years, and they wont be here very much longer. They are getting helpless and they can't work any more, and for that reason I believe it is nothing but right that Congress should act upon that question of sale of surplus lands and let these old people sell it and get money to make them so they would enjoy the few days they have to remain here. I want to emphasize these facts, for the reason that the full-blood Indians — in fact, all of them, but particularly the full bloods — are in a more critical condition than ever before. There is no doubt in my mind, or in the mind of the more intelli- gent of my people, that Congress, when they were enacting that law, thought tha;t they were doing a great and good thing for the Indians. I admit it, but still there Avas a great majority of them that did not know the real condition of the people and their needs, and for that reason I believe that there should be a remedy provided by this coming session of Congress. I believe that if we were to dispose of our sur- plus lands that it would be a good thing and would do more to relieve the condition of my people than anything else. We are rich in land and poor in everything else. If Ave could eat the land it would be all right, but we can't. There is three-fifths of my people taking their allotments, and the land is lying idle, for they can't even rent it. If they want to rent some of that land you have surrounded the attempt to do so with so many complications, for you say that it has to go before the Interior Department The CHAiRjrAN. Is it your opinion that if Congress were to rescind the action of last Avinter and stand upon the agreement that was made between the tribes and the Government of the United States that the surplus land should be salable after five years, would that meet the difficulty that you speak of — Avould it meet that difficulty now — going back to the last agreement between the tribes and Con- gress that gave the right to sell the surplus land at any time after five years — that is five years after the delivery of the patent ? Would that meet the difficulty, or would you consider that more ample legis- lation was necessary to provide the relief necessary ? Mr. Gloky. Well, I would prefer that Congress should make some legislation in regard to that. The Chairman. Well, in regard to what? AVhat I am speaking of is this : If the legislation by Congress at the last winter's session was Aviped out — if you went back to the agreement that allowed the Indian to sell his surplus land five years — after five years from the date of his patent — would that be sufficient legislation to meet the dif- ficulty you now speak of, or would it require still more liberal legis- lation? Mr. Glory. Well, I believe that still more liberal legislation Avould be required. That would do if we could not get better, but if we could get something more liberal it would be better. Senator Brandegee. How do you think it ought to be done? Mr. Glory. AVell, that is for you gentlemen to say. Senator Brakdegee. Well, that may be so, but my question is what you think about it. I want to know how you thmk it ought to be fixed ? Mr. Glory. Well, I don't know that Congress would take my advice, 116 i'lVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Senator Brandegee. Well, we might take it. You don't know — any way we would like to know what your opinion is about how it ought to be fixed? Mr. Glory. Well, since you insist on it, I'll tell you that I think that you ought to make it so these restrictions would be removed — remove the restrictions at once on the surplus lands of the full bloods. I believe that the restrictions should be removed as a whole from the full bloods of all the Indian Territory. Senator Brandegee. So you think the restrictions should be re- moved as soon as possible on the surplus lands of full bloods ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Well, how about the homesteads? Mr. Glory. No ; not the homesteads. Senator Brandegee. How ? Mr. Glory. Not the homesteads. Senator Brandegee. You mean that that you don't think the re- strictions should be removed on the full-blood homesteads? Mr. Glory. That's it. The restrictions should be left on the home- steads. Senator Long. Then you believe that the restrictions should be re- moved from the surplus lands only ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. I don't believe it would be wise to remove them from the homesteads. If they were removed from the surplus lands so we could dispose of them it would enable many of us to get something to go on and improve our homesteads. The Chairman. What is your occupation or employment or profes- sion now ? In other words. What do you do for a living now ? Mr. Glory. My occupation at the present time is clerk in a store. The Chairman. Your occupation at the present time gives you an opportunity to observe very closely the condition of the full-blood In- dians in your tribe ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So your occupation now and at other times has furnished you with ample opportunity to observe and become very thoroughly acquainted with the sentiment of the Cherokee people on this and all other subjects that interest them? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. I was born and raised with them, and I come in contact with them every day. Senator Long. You think, then, that the extension of time from five years to twenty-five years was a mistake in the Curtis Act of last winter ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir. Senator Long. When we extended the time from five years to twenty-five years you complained of that ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir; I think it is subject to criticism. Senator Long. And you think it ought not to have been done ? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir ; I think that ought not to have been done, and the rest of my people think so, too. It is done, though, and they want it remedied in some other way so that they can dispose of their sur- plus land as soon as possible — not that all of them want to dispose of it, but we want it fixed so we can dispose of it if we want to and in that way get money with which to go ahead and improve our home- steads. An Indian is not a white man, you understand ; on the aver- age he is not, but I have seen Indians that would average up fairly FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 117 with white men when it comes to doing things; but as I say, on the average they don't come up to white men. They are not as capable of starting without anything as a white man is, and making a farm out of the wilderness, but if they could get a start I believe that lots of them would average up well with the white man; but, as I said before, the only way they can get that start the way they are situated, is to make the law so they can dispose of their surplus land or what- ever part of it they want to dispose of, and use the money they get in that way for improving their homesteads. If they do that, I believe lots of them will get along just about as well as the average white. We would then have something to go on to make a living. Some of our people are getting very old and feeble, as I stated, and their land is lying idle and there they are old and feeble, and very poor and wanting for the ordinary necessities of life, to say nothing of the comforts, and all the time they are rich in land that they can't sell ; and I am sure that you will agree with me when I say that the restrictions ought to be removed from their land so that they could sell it and get something that would be of use to them in their life- time. The Chairman. Well, I am inclined to agree with you, for I think that would be a very good thing to do. Mr. Gloet. That is my opinion. The Chaieman. But as to the homestead, you would not be in favor of taking the restrictions from that ? You think the homestead would furnish enough land to furnish a living even if the surplus land was sold? Mr. Glory. Yes, sir; for the Indians, as a general thing, it does. I don't knpw of one that the homestead would not be all and more than he would want. Of course, you understand that all of them who have taken their allotments have both homesteads and surplus lands — children and all. The Chairman. Yes, sir; I understand. The full-blood Indians hardly ever make use of more than the homestead? — A. No, sir; I don't know of any of them using all of that. It is more than the great majority want or ever will need. An Indian don't hardly know what the value of land is, and in disposing of it they should be held under some kind of supervision to see that they get what it is worth ; but that is a subject that you gentlemen can easily solve. The Chairman. Well, we would like to have your solution of it. Mr. Gloet. Well, I don't know that I could fix it right, but I think that somebody ought to have charge of it; the agent or some court or committee should have the looking after it and see that it is sold for what it is worth. An Indian thinks a great deal of his home- stead — his home — and they are much attached to it, but they don't care for anything more than is sufficient to supply their simple needs. Senator Teller. So they hardly ever make any use of anything more than the homestead ? Mr. Glory. No, sir; and no more of that than they can handle. Now I am speaking of the full bloods, you understand, all the time. Of course, you take the mixed bloods, there is lots of them would want more than the homestead. I expect there is lots of the mixed bloods that would need more than the homesteads, but the full bloods, they don't need or want any more than the homestead, and very often they can't use all of that. They don't inclose their land and don't think of 118 5'I'^B CIVILIZED TRIBES. doing so only with the little bit they have under cultivation. It has ahvays been customary for them to have under inclosure say 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 acres, and perhaps some of them might have 30 acres, but it would be few of them that would have that much, and the homestead is 80 acres, so you see that they don't need even all of the homestead — 40 acres might be enough for a homestead— it is now, but they hight get so in the future that they M^ould cultivate more, so I think it advisable to keep the whole 80 acres as a horaestead. Q. In effect, their surplus land is so much dead capital, and can't be utilized for any useful or beneficent purpose ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And so they don't get any revenue from it I. — A. No, sir ; not at the present time. Senator Long. Do you know of many full bloods who have refused to take their allotments, or have refused to select their allotments? Mr. Glory. Well, there is a considerable number of them that have failed or refused to do so. Q. The Commission in that case selected their allotments for • them ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And arbitrarily awarded them ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And in doing this the Commission generally allowed them to remain where they were ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Selected that as their homestead for them? — A. Yes, sir; they selected their homesteads there — the Dawes Commission did — ^but of course they selected their surplus land at different places scattered around the country within the limits of the tribal lands. They are scattered around at one place and another. By Senator Beandegee : Q. I understood you to say that the full-blood Indians, or some of them, refuse to take their allotments? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you understand or know the cause or reason for these full- blood Indians refusing to take their allotments either of homesteads or surplus land? — A. Well, of course I have devoted a good deal of study and attention to that subject. I know them very well and go around among them, and I hear them talking about it ; and I have conae to the conclusion the reason they don't do it is because they expect that they are going to get their old laws and old treaties back again, and that aU the land will come back again to be held by the tribe; and I mean by that that they expect that conditions will revert back to what they were in the old days when aU the land was held in common. Q. What do you mean by "getting the old laws back?" — A. The old conditions that were there. I have not studied this thing in the way of specially and particularly studying it, but I know enough about it to know that that is what they expect. Q. Well, that is too indefinite. You say the old laws. Do you mean the old treaty of 1832, or the one establishing the homestead? — A. No, sir; I mean the old conditions that were here prior to the passage of the last law. By Senator Teller : Q. Do you mean the act of 1866? — A. I mean the laws that were here before the abolishment of the tribal government that they used to have. sir, FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 119 Q. Oh, I see. They want the tribal governinent back? — A. Yes, By the Chairman: Q. They are hoping that the time will come again when all this land wUl be held in common? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Just as it was before they voted on the agreement to abolish tribal government and agreed to take their land in severalty? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is what they are hopiag for? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, it is a vain hope, a hope that will never be realized. — A. I know it, but you can't make them realize that. By Senator Long : Q. That is the reason they won't take their allotments or accept anything, for they fear that if they do so it will prevent the return of this time which they are looking forward to, when aU the land wUl be held in common as it was in the old days ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there few or many of the full bloods that hold that view ? — A. Well, there are a good many of them. Q. How many? — A. I could not say, but there are quite a few of them. Q. Do you think the majority of them hold that view of the mat- ter? — A. No, sir; I think not. Q. Then you think that the majority of the fuU bloods have taken their allotments? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the mixed bloods ? — A. They have taken them. Q. So the majority of the fuU bloods and all of the mixed bloods have taken their allotments ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. You are appearing here for a part of the people of the Cherokee Nation? — A. Yes, sir; I am appearing here only for the Cherokee people, or that part of them who have requested me to do so. Q. And there are how many fuE bloods in the Cherokee Nation ? — A. There is about 7,000, 1 believe. I won't be positive, but I under- stand that is the number. Q. Well, I believe that is the number that is reported officially — about 7,000 fuU bloods and about 26,000 mixed bloods. That is about correct, is it not? — A. I suppose that is about right. They have been enrolled, and I suppose the enrollment is about correct. Q. And you say that all of the mixed bloods took their allot- ments? — A. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. By Senator Long: Q. And you don't think the majority of the full bloods refused to take their allotments? — A. No, sir; I don't think they did. Q. Well, do you mean that thej^ did or did not? — A. I think the majority of the full bloods took their allotments. Q. And as to those of the full bloods who refused to take or select their allotments, the Commission went ahead and selected them for them? Is that right? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And left them in the places where they were and had been Hving? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I mean that the Commission in selecting arbitrarily for them X20 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. selected the place where they were residing and allotted it to them? — A. As a rule, they did. Q. And where that was not done it was because of the fact that inasmuch as they had refused to claim it as an allotment someone else had come in and filed on it ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. Are there many of your people, I mean your Indian people, who beheve it is a crime to divide land and hold it in severalty ? — A. No, sir; I believe not. Q. Well, some tribes do hold such a belief. — A. I suppose, of course, there is some that do; but I don't know of any. If they held such a belief they haven't said anything to me about it. Q. You do not hear that advanced as a cause or reason for their refusing to take their allotments? — A. No, sir; only as I said iDefore, that they thinlc they will ultimately return to the old original conditions. By Senator Long : Q. You are a full-blood Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How old are you? — A. 37. Q. You speak good EngUsh? — A. Yes, sir; fair. Q. Well, I think you speak excellent English. I suppose you were educated? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you educated ? — A. I went to school in the States. Q. What school did you go to ? — A. In the State of Ohio. Q. I don't like to interfere with the tenor of your statement here, but I would like to have you tell me something about the schools here in the Territory so far as they apply to your people. I would like to have you tell us about that, if it doesn't interfere with your statement here. What we particularly want to get at is the extent that the children down here go to school, and the extent and char- acter of the school facilities. That is something that I am sure every member of this committee is profoundly interested in. — A. Well, I was going to bring that out in my talk later on. Q. Well, just go right ahead then, and make your statement in your own way. — A. The cu-cumstances and conditions in our country down here are such that if the matter is not settled definitely and on some fixed basis very soon there will be a season of great disaster. It is bad enough now, but this is nothing to what it will be later. No one knows what the result will be. The land question is a very perplexing one, and it will require all your patience and wisdom, gentlemen, to find out the truth about it and devise a remedy; but we believe you are equal to it, and the way to find out is the way you have taken — come down here and listen and see for yourselves. The great bulk of the land all through the Indian Territory is lying idle and unpro- ductive, and especially is that true of the land held by my people; and of com-se nearly all of it is held that way. As I stated, the Indians are not capable of cultivating it, and they can not dispose of any part of it to people who know how to cultivate it ; and the result of that is that nothing is done with it. This is very bad. The biggest portion of it — of that part of it that is comprised in the holdings of the full-blood Indians — is abso- lutely unproductive, and, as I have stated, if the full blood was per- mitted to dispose of his surplus land or a part of it, as the case may FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 121 be, as I said, he would be able to realize a little capital with which to improve his homestead, or a part of it, and that would be the first step in his advancement. Now, I want to say that Indians, espe- cially the full bloods, are just about lilce children. They must be taught and taught intelligently, and if you get them started right they will very often advance and become good useful citizens. I am one of them, and I know just how they feel about it. It is hard to make them understand a thing, but when they understand it no one laiows it better than they do. Of course the homestead should always be theirs. They should not be allowed to get rid of that at all. They might squander their surplus — it is well worth while let- ting them make a try at it — but the homestead ought to be kept as their home always. Forever, if possible. By the Chairman : Q. About how many acres are there in a homestead in your nation ? — A. Well, it varies; some are larger than others. It is owing to the valuation of the land they select or the grade of the land. Now, I say if these privileges were granted us — that is, to dispose of our sur- Elus lands — it would enable a place for the good citizens of the United tates to come amongst us and settle amongst us — people who know how to farm and how to live, and you can depend on it that their fresence and example would have a very stimulating effect on the ndians. They would be our neighbors, and they would be all amongst us, and that is what the Cherokees want. The presence of these white citizens would be of the greatest benefit in every way, for it would have a tendency to persuade the Cherokees, and this I believe would apply to every Indian tribe in the Territory. It would have a tendency to persuade them to go to church and to school — to send their children to school. I know this from my own personal history, for had it not been for this influence I would probably be just as they are. They are honest and true and loyal. They want to be citizens, good citizens, but they don't know how to set about it. The presence of these white citizens would stimulate them in every way. They would have their example held up daily before them, and they would try to live as they live and emulate their example. This is the most important thing in my opinion in the whole situa- tion — the matter, I might almost say, of supreme irnportance. Now I will say that all my people don't think on this as I do, but I know that the result would be as I have put it. I know it by my own case and numerous others I have seen. There could be no other result. My people would drop their old habits and customs insen- sibly and by degrees and constantly live more and more like their white neighbors. Our children would go to the same school and we would attend the same church, and the civilizing influence could not be resisted. I am looking to the future, and I believe that we should all look to the future and should not be bound by any desire to get a temporary advantage, for it is what the future holds for my people that counts. When children go to school and play together and go to church together and are together in all things there can be no result other than the advancement of the race inferior in the scale of civilization; therefore I believe that an all-wise God has intended we should finally be the beneficiaries of this civilization which is sweeping the world and that my people can no more escape it than they can escape anything else that is inevitable. S. Rep. 5013, 50-2, pt 1 9 122 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. I don't think it would be wise to let them go off by themselves and live as they always have lived. If the white man in large numbers could come among us and get this land they would set out their trees, their orchards, and vineyards, and finally the Indian would be impelled to follow their example and do likewise. I have no other object than the upbuilding and benefit of my race. I am not ashamed of my blood or lineage — not by any means — I want my race andthe future children of that race to go on and up in the path of civilization until at length they would stand side by side with their white brothers on equal terms in every respect. Now, these are the propositions that I have wished to pz'esent to you, gentlemen, and I have done so to the best of my ability. I hope you will take into account my limitations and understand just what I am attempting to point out, and take into your fullest consideration and act on them to the best of your knowledge; and I am in hopes that the session of Congress about to convene will look into these matters carefully and conscientiously and enact such laws as will do away to as great an extent as possible with the evils that at present oppress this country and its people, which are shown to exist by the testimonies which have been laid before you. That is all, gentlemen, unless you wish to question me. Q. Well, what is the present condition of the schools? — A. Oh, yes, I overlooked that. Of course we have a very good system of schools. This system of schools was devised, worked out and car- ried into effect by the Indians all through the Territory many years ago under the tribal form of government, and now that the United States has taken charge of these schools, I can't say that they have been benefited any, nor would I say that they have been damaged, but the fact is that we Indians had devised and put in operation what we considered to be a good system, and this was the opinion of competent whites who examined them; but there are some of my own people who are holding back from them, but they are ones that don't believe in the advancement of civilization. Q. Have you a claim in that country? — A. Yes sir. Q. Do the children of the full bloods attend these schools ? — A. Well, quite a number of them attend these schools. Q. But all of them don't attend them? — A. No, sir; but a great many of them do. It is a matter that I am satisfied will adjust itself in time, like all things adjust themselves. Now, gentlemen, I wish to point out that the great evil in connection witH the educational system here is that it is not compulsory — there is no such a thing here as compulsory education. By Senator Teller: Q. I guess that is what you need. It is a good thing anywhere, and it would no doubt be good here? — A. There can be no question about that. Some of our people live back in the woods and away from school facilities, but of course as schools are established ia greater number, the school facilities will be available to more and more of our people, and they send their children to school or not, just as they please. There is nothing regular about the attendance. One day they will go to school, and the next day, if they see fit they will remain away, and this system is demoralizing on account of the lack of regularity. They should be compelled to send the children during stated terms to school every day. This is brought about of FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 123 course bj^ the fact that their parents don't take much interest in edu- cation. Now, this is not universal by any means, for there are some few parents — well, quite a number of them — more than you would probably imagine, who take a very great interest in schools, and are intensely anxious that their children should receive a good education, and use every effort in seeing that they do get it. There are a great many people who take a great deal of interest — full-blood Indians at that — in the building of schools and churches. By Senator Long: Q. What about your restrictions — have you ever had them re- moved? — A. Yes, sir. Q. By the Secretary? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How did you get them removed ? — A. Through the Indian agent. Q. You made your application to have your restrictions removed, and the Indian agent investigated your case and found or decided that you were capable of managing your own affairs, and he recom- mended that your restrictions should be removed and the Secretary removed them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When was that done?— A. In 1905. Q. In 1905, a year ago? — A. Yes, sir. Now, I wish to say that the majorit}^ of my people are capable at least of handling their own affairs if they are given a show or the privilege was extended to them. I believe that the majority are just as capable of doing so as I am. Q. Well, do you think — really think — that you" are capable of managing your own affairs? — A. Yes, sir. Now, of course, you will find people now and then that are reckless, but that is not a condition that is peculiar to the Indians, for you will find lots of white people who are not capable of managing their business. I have known white men that were not. Q. So have I — lots of them. — A. You will find them among all classes of people, no matter what their color, that are not capable of managing their business. Some are more extravagant than others. Now, I don't know that I have anything more to say. By the Chairman : Q. I would like to ask you a hypothetical question. Do you believe that a full-blood Indian ever will acquire increased capacity to transact his own business unless he is given an opportunity to experi- ment ? Do you not think it is impossible to say whether he is, or will ever be able to do so unless the opportunity is given him to try it ? — A. Do you mean by removing his restrictions, so he can transact business ? Q. No; I mean this: Do you think that it can be said of any full- blood that he is or is not capable of transacting his own business in a safe and sane manner unless the chance is given him and it is actually dem- onstrated whether he can or can not ? In other words, do you think that it can be definitely said whether or not he is capable of transact- ing his own business as long as he is held in wardship and is not given the opportunity of transacting any business? — A. I don't know; only this, that if he was given the full benefit of transacting his own business, it could then be seen whether he was or not. I believe that the major- ity of them, if they were given the opportunity, would show that they are capable of doing business for themselves. I think, as he gained 124 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. experience, if he was allowed to start in a %mall way, that he would be fully as capable as the average white man. Q. You believe if he was given the opportunity that he would grow with his responsibilities or opportunities? Is that what you desire to be understood as saying? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. Are the full bloods of your age able to speak English ? — A. Yes, sir; quite a number of them are. Q. But not all of them?— A. No, sir. Q. They have gone to school — the ones that speak English? — A. Yes, sir; they have been attending school. Q. Do they teach EngHsh in school ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Soitfollows that if they go to school theyhave to learn English? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you mean that they have attended the schools in the States or in the Territory? — A. Yes, sir; in the Territory. Q. And in these schools they speak Enghsh ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you think that most of the full bloods of your age are capable of attending to their own business afi'airs? — A. Yes, sir; most of them are, to a certain extent. Q. But all of them are not? — A. Well, there is one now and then that might not be. Q. But the older full bloods, in your opinion, are not capable of attending to their business? — A. No, sir; some of them might not be. Well, I say most of them might not be. Q. You would not consider it to be a safe experiment to allow them to do so? — A. No, sir. Q. If the attempt were made the result in some cases might be disastrous? — A. Yes, sir; to a good many of them, I have no doubt about it. Q. And the full bloods of your age have taken their allotments, haven't they, or the most of them have taken them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They are the younger Indians? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is all. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Had you been attending school here before you went away to attend school? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where had you attended school here? — A. I attended the pub- lic schools. Q. How old were you when you went away from here ?-^ A. I was about 18. Q. You went to school in Ohio? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it your own 'dea to go into another State to school? — A. Well, I can't say that it was. I was raised by a poor mother; she was poor and ignorant, but she knew the value or education and she always tried to impress upon me the value of a good education; she never let an opportunity pass of impressing that on me, and I was impressionable and I never forgot it, so it has always been my effort and desire to learn in every way possible, and she helped me in all ways, and of course I had a hard time of it; I had to work part of the time to get provisions and clothing to live and to get a little money ahead, and when I would get a little money ahead of course I would FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 125 go to school as long as it lasted, and then I'd go to work again and earn more and go back to school. I want to acknowledge, here, what I owe to her for the way she impressed me, for she always told me to go to school and study hard and learn what I could and, gentlemen, I have never forgotten it. I don't want you to understand, gentlemen, that I am the only one amongst my people who is sensible of the advantages to be derived from education, for there are plenty in my nation who have striven in their own way to acquire it, and if they did not succeed it was not because of a failure of their will — it is because they did not go about it as I did. When I had advanced so far, of course, it was my will that I should go elsewhere and iinish my education, and though it was hard I managed to do it, and that was the way I acquired what edu- cation I have. It is not very much, though; I regret that I haven't more. Q. Well, I must say that you seem to have done very well; you are to be congratulated. — A. Thank you. By Senator Long : Q. Have you ever taught school? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where? — A. In the Cherokee Nation. Q. Right in the Cherokee Nation here among your own people? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And now you are clerking in a store? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have had your restrictions removed ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you sold your land ? — A. Yes, sir ; part of it. Q. What part of it have you sold? — A. I have sold my surplus land. Q. Have you sold all your surplus land ? — A. Yes, sir. I have sold all my land excepting my homestead. Q. And how many acres are there in that ? — A. In my homestead ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Thirty acres of homestead. By Senator Tellee : Q. Do you live on it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You live there now ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It is near the town here, is it ? — A. Well, no ; it is not very near. It is about 25 miles from town. By Senator Long: Q. You live in town here, don't you? — A. Yes, sir; at the present time, I do. Q. So you live here in Vinita at the present time ? — A. Yes, sir — oh, herein Vinita? No, sir; not here in Vinita. Q. Well, where do you live? — A I live out here at Pryor Creek, about 25 miles from Vinita. Q. And you live on your homestead there ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you work it — cultivate it yourself? — A. No, sir; I live there, but I don't work on it. I have a man that cultivates the place ; he attends to the place for me. Q. This man whom you have employed looks after your homestead and you clerk in a store in town? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you sell your surplus land?— A. Immediately after the restrictions were removed. 126 FIVS CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Did you get a good price for your land? — A. Yes, sir; I got a yerjr good price. Q. Why did you sell your surplus land ? — A. I had to do it in order to make a start. I could not make a start at improving my homestead unless I did it, for there were things that I had to have. Q. What did you have to have? — A. I had to buy my farming implements and buy my team, and put buildings on my homestead. It was unimproved, and there was no other way of improving it but by selling my surplus land. Q. In other words, j^ou improved your homestead from what you got or realized from the sale of your siu-plus land? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Tellek : Q. Could you raise enough to support a family on 30 acres of groimd? — A. Yes, sir; I think so. Wherever there is good tillable land a man can raise enough on 30 acres of ground to support a family all right, provided he kept it in a good state of cultivation. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Let me ask you this question: Do the majority of the full bloods in the Cherokee Nation speak and write English? — A. Well, you will find quite a good number of them that can speak and write the Eng- lish language. Q. Well, can the majority of them do so? — A. I don't know whether the most of them can or not ; but there is quite a number who can. Q. But whether or not the majority can do so, you can't say? — A. No, sir. Q. I understood some witness to say here this afternoon that almost all of the full bloods of the Cherokee Nation both speak and write English. What do you say as to that ? — A. Well, that probably is correct. It is true, I think, of the younger generation; but now and then you will find one who can't. Q. Well, now, let me ask you this. Is there any prejudice or jeal- ousy among the people of your nation against those who can or do manage to get a good education and return to the tribe? — A. No, sir; there is not. I don't believe there is. There don't seem to be any discrimination against such. Q. They are willing for anybody to acquire as good an education as they can acquire in any way they can acquire it ? — A. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is all. Mr. Glory. Well, gentlemen, I am very thankful for the privilege of appearing here before you and I hope that in the future these few words that I have spoken inay so impress you, or have a tendency to impress you, and through you others that they will eventually bear fruit. Senator Long. We appreciate what you have said, and I am sure we have all been much interested and instructed by it, and we trust it will. Mr. Glory. Thank you. The Chairman. Are there any others present who desire to address the committee? If there are we would be glad to hear from them now, one at a time, however. I am informed that Mr. A. Grant Evans, of Muskogee, is present, and if so we would be very glad to hear from him. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 127 STATEMENT OE A. GRANT EVANS, PRESIDENT, HENRY KENDALL COLLEGE. By Senator Long: Q. Your name is what? — A. A. Grant Evans. Q. And you reside where? — A.- At Muskogee. Q. What is your business ? — A. President of Ilenry Kendall College at Muskogee. By Senator Teller: Q. Is tlmt a denominational college? — A. It is a Presbyterian college. The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Evans. Mr. Evans. At a meeting held recently of the authorities of the various commercial clubs of the various cities of the Indian Territory I was requested, as soon as possible after this committee should reach the Indian Territory, to put before it some circumstances in regard to the present educational situation, not because it was our purpose to get an early hearing, but for the purpose of placing some facts before you so that if you deemed proper later on in your progress from point to point in the Territory you could make inquiries and take eAadence in regard thereto that you might think necessary. There are three things in the present educational situation in the Indian Territory that seem to be of the most urgent importance. In the first place there is the immediate future, the time that must still elapse before a State government can be formed and before this country can begin to have any income from taxation for the support of the schools. We can hardly hope to have any revenue from that source for two j'ears and probably not by that time. Of course this does not apply to the city or town schools. It applies primarily to the country schools or the schools in the rural districts. The towns that have been incorporated have built up their own school systems without any help, but in the rural districts there is absolutely no system of taxation by which a school system could be maintaned on any stable basis from the proceeds of taxation. Now, I call your attention to this, as it is a matter that requires prompt attention, if it is to have any attention at all, for we can not hope to realize any- thing from taxation before the year 1908, if then. This being the condition, the best that we can hope for is the continuation of such schools as we have at the present time. Now these are the Indian school systems of the various tribes, the systems that were placed in operation by the tribes before the tribal government was abolished. The boarding schools of these tribes furnish educational facilities at this time to something like 2,300 chil- dren, and then there are the day schools of the tribes that provide facilities for some 12,000 Indian children. Three years ago an appeal was made to Congress, and was responded to by Congress, to supplement the money on the day schools by these Indian tribes by the grant of $100,000, in order that the system of day schools and small neighborhood schools should be so enlarged that white children might be enabled to go to these daj^ schools side by side with the Indian children, and that the Indian citizen negroes might go to school side by side with the children of the Indian freedmen. That grant of $100,000 was made, and within the first year under the opera- 128 ^IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. tion of that grant there was 21,424 white children enrolled in these rural schools. That was the result of the first year's operations after that grant was made. The second year the grant was increased to $150,000, with the provision that in addition to that sum it was sup- plemented by the addition of some court fees that would accrue. This of course was a great assistance, but still last year there was a great deal of uncertanity as to whether or not the schools should go on through the year. On the Friday before the 4th of March, when the schools were closed for the week, we did not know at that time whether the schools would be closed or opened on the following Monda)-. It depended on Congressional action. Well, the action of Congress was favorable and the news came. Telegrams were sent around notifying the teachers of the fact, and they in turn got around and notified the pupils that school would be open on Monday, and the schools were opened. Now, I refer to this to show you that in spite of all that doubt and uncertainty the attend- ance increased so that the attendance of white children was practically double what it was before, being 42,830 white children taking advan- tage of the opportunity to attend these schools last year, being an increase of the noncitizen children, the figures being 4,923 for the past year, as against 2,763 the year before. So you will see that the system of schools has been a very successful one as far as it has gone, there- fore I submit that it would be a most lamentable thing should there be any confusion or doubt over what your action is to be. It is true that there will doubtless be more or less confusion attendant on the closing of the Indian schools as they have been managed and operated in the past, and the opening or putting into effect of the State system of schools under the new State management soon to be inaugurated here. Now, I wish to say that those who worked hardest in securing this grant from Congress worked in the interest of the Indian schools to the end that the best educational facilities available should be secured for the Indian children as well as the whites. I say "Indian schools." Perhaps I should not designate them as Indian schools, and should say schools for both races, Indian and white. We feel that we have been successful, as successful as could be expected, and that the schools are now so organized that the evolution of the school system of the future will be natural. We feel that they can be by a natural process devel- oped into the school system of the future, and that when the time comes the Indian child will find himself in tlie school system and schools of the new State enjoying the same privileges side by side with the white children, and the children of noncitizen negroes would be in school side by side and enjoying the same privileges with the children of negro citizens. Now, all we have to suggest in regard to this is the importance of prompt action by the means of aid from Congress for the purpose of prolonging the Indian school system at least for another year by a re- newal and increase, if possible, of the supplementary grant. It should be increased for the reason, if no other, that there is no system of taxa- tion down here in anj^ degree adequate to maintain tliese schools, out- side of the incorporated towns, and the population of the Territory is constantly increasing, therefore the number of children of school age is constantly increasing, and at the same time there are thousands of children in this country who have never attended school. There is no FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 129 way of compelling them to attend, and many of them can not attend for the reason that there is no school convenient or accessible. There- fore the amount should be increased, if possible, to provide additional schools and maintain and increase the efficiency of those already in operation. This is a most important matter, and I trust the very great importance of it will manifest itself to the committee. Now I say that the supplementary grant should be increased, because from all I hear from the superintendents and various super- visors and others there is almost an unlimited opportunity for enlarg- ing this work. It is a hard work and one that must be engaged in from a pure love of the cause, else they would not stay in it. In the rural districts the neighborhoods do little toward the help of the teachers in the way of supporting them. The people are poor and are able to do but little, jet what little they are able to do thej^ do cheer- fully. They put up their own schoolhouses and get their own school furniture, and do everything in the way of bearing the incidental expenses in that way. It is true that the houses in many cases are not models of convenience or architectural beauty, but they are the best that the people can furnish and they do very well too, bearing in mind the people who build them. The furniture is often home- made and of the crudest description — such furniture as the native artisans can manufacture. In addition to this, where they can do it, they assist in the maintenance of the teachers. Indeed, they are required to contribute toward the maintenance of the teachers. The average cost has been just about $3 per capita per annum — that is, on these white children that have been brought into these schools. That appropriation has been so well used that for 13 per annum fair educational facilities have been given to the white children who attend these schools. The Chairman. Can you give some estimate by comparison as to the cost in the Indian Territory as compared with neighboring States ? Mr. Evans. I haven't these figures here, but I can get them for the committee, and I will do so before the committee leaves Muskogee. I find that there is more of this than I calculated, and I did not get the figures that I expected. By the Chairman. Q. "What is the length of your school term? — A. Well it is hard to say. It varies. It is from five to nine months as a rule. Of course some of these children have been in school for a long time, while others have only attended a short time. Q. Have the schools been maintained nine months in the year ? — A. In most instances, but not in all. In most instances they have been maintained for nine months. Q. Am I correct in the impression that up to the time the supple- mentary grant was made by Congress the white children had no right in the Indian schools excepting by sufferance? — A. They had no right to attend the Indian schools, except in the Chickasaw and Southern nations where they were permitted to come in on the payment of $2 per child. An effort was made by the supervisors to get the same rule in operation in some of the other nations, and it was tried, but my understanding is that it did not prove satisfactory. Now we have, according to the latest figures I have been able to 130 FIVE. CIVILIZED TRIBES. get from the census department, I find that we must have at least 150,000 children of school age in the Indian Territor}^ That is what the statistics show — that we have at least 150,000 children in the Indian Territory, say between the ages of 6 and 16. Q. Do you mean there are that many in the Indian Territory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In the Indian Territory alone? — A. Yes, sir; between the ages of 6 and 21, statistics show that there is that man}', and I appre- hend that the actual figures would be very close to those of Okla- homa. Practically we had the same population at the last census, and with the development of the resources of the Territory and the rapid influx of immigration it is fair to assume that we have in- creased in as great a ratio as Oklahoma. Some insist that the Territory has increased faster, and that it has a larger population by a considerable margin now than Oklahoma has, and I incline to believe that that is true, but for the purposes of this argument I will assume that the population of the two are about equal. At the last census the figures for Oklahoma was just about 200,000 between 6 and 21, so I think I am safe in saying that we have at least 150,000 between 6 and 16. Q. That number in the rural districts only? — A. No, sir; that includes all — the children in the incorporated towns as well as the country' districts. Q. Take the schools in the incorporated towns, do the Indian children go to them? — A. Yes, sir; where they are residents of the towns they do. Q. Prior to the time of this appropriation by Congress the white children in the Territory did not attend the schools in the country ? — A. No, sir; excepting in the case where, as I have stated, they allowed them to attend upon the payment of a stipulated sum for doing so. Q. There was a charge made, then, for the privilege of white children attending the Indian schools?— A. Yes, sir. Q. What was that charge? — A. $2 per month, paid by the parents. Q. There was a charge of $2 per month for each white child who attended the Indian schools prior to the time Congress made this appropriation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But the white children do attend now without the payment of anything?— A. Yes, sir; where the school is supported partly by that appropriation or wherever the arrangement is made by the superin- tendent for a combined school. By Senator Teller: Q. And no tuition fee is charged now? — A. No, sir; the money is paid out of the tribal funds for the niaintainance of the Indian children and out of the Congressional appropriation for the white children. Q. This appropriation of $150,000 is available for the maintain- ance of these schools up to the 1st of July of this next year? — A. The appropriation is $175,000 and it is available up to the 1st of July coming. Q. Well, what do you suggest ought to be done? — A. Well, I think that at least the same appropriation ought to be made for the next current year after that time, for the reason, as I have stated, that we can not get our State government in running order and a levy of taxes made that could be collected and available before the first of FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 131 1908, and it is probable that nothing could be done for at least eighteen months or longer from this time. Q. When do you expect that the State government will be able to take hold of State questions and administer them ? — A. I think it is beyond peradventure that we will hardly be organized and have a revenue before next summer. It takes time to organize a State and get the government in running order. The State convention will assemble next Monday — that is, the constitutional convention — and it will be in session anywhere from forty to sixty days; and so it will be more than a full month before we can even know what the consti- tutional convention submits in the way of a constitution — yes, two of them—and then follows the proclamation and the submission of the constitution to the people to be voted on, and then if it carries, and then comes the election of State officers and the organization of the departments. All of this will take time and a good deal of it. This will run through next year or most of it, and we can not even begin to collect taxes until the following year, which will be 1908. Q. You have a $5,000,000 appropriation. Won't that be avail- able? — A. Well, I was going to speak of that. That will not be specially available for the schools in the Territory. It is a fund the inconie from which will be available for the schools of the whole State. That is a very important matter and I was going to speak of it imme- diately. I thank you for calling my attention to it. Q. That is the sum that has been appropriated by Congress to the new Stated; — A. Yes, sir; to be invested for the benefit of the school fund of the whole State — Oklahoma and the Territory. Q. You will get interest- on that? — A. Yes, sir; I assume so. That is, as I understand, provided foT' in the enabling act, and it does not come into our hands until statehood is accomplished. When state- hood is an accomplished fact, then it will be turned over to the State — handed over to the new State — but it is not specified in the enabling act what the vState is to do with it or how it is to expend it. That is a matter, however, that I was going to take up presently. There is a matter that is important with reference to the school sys- tem — the coming school system of this Territory under statehood — that will be adjusted by the authorities of the new State, I have no doubt, on a basis that will be mutually satisfactory to both portions of the new State of Oklahoma, for it is positively decided now that we are to have a new State; but I think it is important to arrange it so that the present school system of the Territory may go on without interruption until the new State is fully and finally organized, when it can take the schools over. The schools in the country districts at the present time belong to the neighborhoods, and there will be an easy and natural plan of starting them. The new State superintendent will find it comparatively easy to do that. There are no obstacles of a diffi- cult nature intervening, provided the system is kept going in the right manner until the time arrives for doing so; but if any interruption occurred it would prove disastrous to the whole school system. It is much easier to assume charge of a sjrstem that is already organized and running than to take one over that is disorganized. I have talked with a number of the Indians, and they seem to be entirely willing that the funds of the nations should be used for the education of their own children until the time that the State is willing to assume the responsibility of their education. 132 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. And do you think that the State will not be ready to take over the schools until the 1st of July next? — A. No, sir; I don't think it will. I don't see how it can be ready by that time. Q. No; I think not. It will take some time to get things under way? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It will take some time to collect the taxes, anyway? — A. Yes, sir; and it would be a very risky thing to leave it dependent on the organization of the State and municipal governments, for all that takes time, and if there was not a sufficient appropriation to run them until that time things would revert to a condition of chaos as far as educational matters are concerned. Therefore, I urge upon you the importance of making early provision for the continuation of these schools, at least on the basis they are now, until such time as the State is ready to assume their control and maintenance. As it is, we have no provision in the day schools for about 60,000 children, and in all other schools — that is, the town schools and board- ing schools and mission schools — for about 32,000, so, as I say, there is between 50,000 and 60,000 children of school age that there is abso- lutely no provision for at all of an educational nature. Under these conditions there is no cause for wonder that there is an alarming degree of illiteracy among the people. As I have no figures, I can't give the percentage of illiteracy, but anyone can figure it out approximately for himself, but I will say that we have figures which show that the percentage in the Indian Territory is 23 per cent, as compared with 6 per cent in Oklahoma. Now, that is the condition in the rural dis- tricts, but in the cities and towns the educational standard and the percentage of those who have the necessary qualifications is fully up to that of Oklahoma and the other States ; but we have that percent- age of illiteracy in the neighborhoods right adjoining the full-blood settlements. There should be something done to relieve education, or rather to assist it and promote it in these neighborhoods, if any- thing is ever to be done in the matter of their upbuilding and uplifting. As a rule, there are no schools in such localities, and schools should be established and maintained and the educational standard of the peo- ple elevated, if there is to be any uplifting and upbuilding of these people. Conditions must be established that will invite the better class of whites to settle in these neighborhoods, and that can't be brought about in any way other than by increasing the educational standard of the people. In these times the desirability of a neighborhood is judged by its educational fucilities, and before an average white man will settle in any location one of the first things he will inquire about is the condition of the schools and their availability. In the past there has been no inducement ofl'ered to the best class of whites who desire educational facilities for their children to live or locate in these neighborhoods. I think it is pertinent at this time to discuss ways and: means for inducing the better class of white citizenship to come among these people and associate with them. For if this is brought about, the constant association of the whites and the Indians — their constant mingling together — will be most important in its bearing upon the Indians with reference to their advancement and bettering of their condition in every way. When full statehood comes to be an accomplished fact, the situation for the full-blood Indians will be an exceedingly trying one. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 133 It is trying now when they are under the wardship of a parental Governraent and are held in wardship; but when they are accorded all the rights of citizens, with perhaps such limited restrictions as to the disposition of their landed property as Congress in its wisdom may impose, their position, I say, will be doubly trying. Therefore steps should be taken now to bring, about a condition that would be for their advantage by establishing facilities tending to their educa- tional upbuilding to the end that they may finally become worthy of all that is implied by the word "citizen." So I say Congress should be sure to take steps without loss of time for the continuance of the Indian schools and the continuance of the appropriation to supple- ment the funds of the Indians themselves devoted to that purpose, to the end that the comnion school system may be maintained up to the time that the State will take hold of and continue the work. Senator Long. How much will the schools cost, do you think — all of the schools ? In other words, what I am asking for is the total expense of the schools. Senator Teller. Yes, we would like to know what it will cost to take care of the schools already established and which you wish con- tinued; and I agree with jo\i in that, that they must be continued until the State government is ready to assume control. How much will it cost to maintain these schools until that time and also to estab- lish the additional schools you ask for? A. Well, the superintendents and supervisors say that they could use to the very best advantage a quarter of a million dollars. Q. They think that it would take about $250,000 to do the work profitably and properly? A. Yes, sir; that is what they tell me. The Indian appropriations altogether amount to about $350,000. Q. You have more white children down here, haven't you, than Indian children ? — A. Oh, yes, vastly hiore white children than Indian children. Now these figures I got directly from the superintendent. Last July there was 10,859 Indian children and 42,830 white children. Q. Those are the ones in school ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any figures showing the proportionate number of children, Indian and white, who have not had advantage of the day schools ? — A. Well, the Indian children in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations are, as a rule, ovit of school and out of everything of an educa- tional character, for they feel that the}'' have not been fairly treated in the management of the schools. They feel that way, probably without just cause, but rightly or wrongly they won't send their children to school. The Indian tenants who sent their children to school contributed about $1,600 less than a fair part of what the Indians considered they should contribute ; and these Indians, feeling that the Government had interfered undulj^ with their educational matters, withdrew their children largely from the schools ; therefore it appears now that these Indians don't send their children to the day schools. The Shawnees still maintain their boarding schools, but not their day schools. Q. What control does the National Government exercise over this matter of education and schools? — A. It appoints a superintendent for the whole Territory and supervisors for each nation. Of course, the tribes have gone on as they used to do, electing their own super- intendent — each tribe has continued to do that ; but that tribal super- intendent has been gradually shorn of all his power, but where it 134 riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. has been managed tactfully instead of exciting his hostility, as would usually be the case, he has become the adviser of the Government supervisor, and they have between them managed the appointment of the teachers. Of course, the Government supervisor, when he don't have the power of regulating things, or when he thinks that things are not going as they should, can always shut off the appropriation. He can always do that. That is the reason some Indians have felt the way they do about the management of the schools, and a great many of them have always felt that the tribal funds should not have been taken out of their hands. I do not care to pass on the right or wrong of the question, but I will say this — that there is no doubt but that the fiinds have been used by the supervisors under the Gov- ernment for the purpose of providing a very effective system of schools. The next matter that I wish to speak of is the condition after the actual change shall have taken place. In the actual physical change that will take place there are a certain portion of the children that will be vitally affected for special reasons. It is of the first impor- tance that something be done for their care and education. I speak now of the orphans — the ones who have no natural guardians, and the ones specially afflicted — such as the deaf and dumb and the blind. As it is now, these are provided for in the various asylums oF the different Indian nations. I don't know just how many of them there are, but I will procure the figures for you before you leave. A large number of them are provided for, but some are not. There is comparatively a large number of them — hundreds of them. As it is now, these children are supported in these schools and asylums entirely at the expense of the different tribes. These people — that is, the Indians — have some most excellent buildings for boarding-school purposes, but these buildings are only for the Indian children. Q. What becomes of the white children of that class? — A. Well, it is very hard to say what does become of them. There is one or two refuges for them that do a small work; they are small and can not do much. There is one at Pryor Creek, I believe, and we have here By Senator Long: Q. They have asylums for the insane also? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And for the deaf and the dumb? — A. No, sir. There is a small asylum at Fort Gibson for them. Now, this is one of the lamentable things. Now, there are buildings that are not used as boarding schools. Some very excellent buildings are, according to the pro- gramme, to be disposed of, and the proceeds are to be added to the funds that are to be divided among the tribes, respectively. Some of these buildings are admirably adapted for school purposes. Now, I wish to rnake a suggestion, and that is that this sale be made through a commission that will be able to delay the matter long enough at least to be able to deal with the new State in reference to the matter of their purchase, for I believe beyond question in that manner a better price would be obtained for them than if they were put up and sold now or at any time before the new State is in a position to purchase them. I believe it would be a serious misfortune if these buildings were sold now, for they will be needed by the State, and the sale should be delayed until the State is in a position to purchase them. It certainjy can purchase them and afford to pay a better price for them FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 135 than anybody else can at this time. If they were put up at auction and sold now they would bring a merely nominal figure. Q. You mean for the new State to become the purchaser? — A. Yes, sir. I believe the commission should have at least the power to delay the sale until the new State would have the opportunity of attempting to purchase them or acquire them for educational purposes. They are good buildings and admirably fitted for that purpose. This is a mat- ter that the representatives of the tribes should deal with, I think. Now, there is one other thing in this connection that I wish to saj- in behalf of the orphan children, and that is that the orphan schools should, if possible, be retained. These children have all of them allot- ments, and if these allotments are properly managed they will bring an income sufficient to support them m the schools. As it is, they don't get anything from their allotments. They attend the schools, and out of the tribal moneys draw enough to clothe and feed them, while their allotments are in most instances in the hands of guardians who get all the income, and by some process to me unknown — that is, the actual modus operandi of the process is to me unknown — they manage to keep all the income or dissipate it in court costs and expenses. This is a matter that, in my opinion, you should look into, although I confess that I am not prepared to give you specific infor- mation. It is a great abuse and generally recognized as such down here, and somethmg should be done to remedy it. There can be no doubt that these allotments if properly managed would yield enough to clothe, feed, and school these orphan minors, but as it is they are kept in school and clothed and fed at the expense of the tribal fund. I am informed that in the Creek Nation alone there are fifty of them whose allotments were idle, and there was no prospect of their being no more valuable in the way of improvements or revenue to be derived from them than they are now. Now, I am not a lawyer, but it does seem to me that there could be some system of public guardianship devised for such minors and helpless ones, either through a near relative or some honest person, which would make possible the leasing and using of these lands so that they would yield something in the way of money with which to maintain them in some manner other than at the public expense and at the same time improve their land, so that by the time their minority expired their allotments could be turned over to them in such shape that they could make use of them. I believe that such a system can be devised by which this result can be reached. If the child is properly educated, and I believe they are being educated in that manner, then it would be a great boon to him to be in a position upon reaching majority to go on their own home- stead with a feeling of independence and freedom, and that this can be accomplished in addition to paying all the necessary expenses attend- ant on the education of the minor I have not the slighest doubt, pro- vided only that a proper system of guardianship is put in operation. Now reverting to the matter of these educational institutions, the assets of which are to be sold, I am sure that the tribes would be very willing to leave the buildings intact for such uses as the State might wish to make of them, and these buildings could be used for this pur- pose of educating tliese orphan children in the proper manner without any expense to the State, for they would be self-supporting, as the children would be in a position to pay their way if their property was 136 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. properly managed. They all have property, and if it is wisely man- aged it will render every one of them self-supporting and more. So I say I hope some system for the management of the property and allotments of these Indian minor children will be discovered that will render them all self-supporting, as it should be. Now that is being done in an orphanage that is not under the control of the Indian nation. A number of children are put under the control of a guardian who sees that they are maintained properly and that all the proceeds of their estates are spent for them and that nothing is wasted or dissi- pated in useless or unnecessary expenses. On the other hand, I read a statement a^short time ago, and I will use it as an illustration, of a child who fell heir to five different allot- ments in the Choctaw Nation. Now, that means a great deal of land, for the allotments down there are large. Well, this child fell heir to five different allotments, and a man got himself appointed guardian to that child, and he took the child and put it in the cheapest kind of an orphanage. I don't know whether it was in the Choctaw or the Chickasaw Nation, but at any rate he put it into the cheapest kind of an orphanage. It was down here in the southern part of the Terri- tory, and this man was reaping an income of $1,500 a year from the property of his ward and doing nothing for the child. I have no doubt but that instances of this kind will be brought to your attention before you get through with your investigations. My information is that this guardianship business is a more extensive industry in the southern part of the Territory than it is up this way; but it is bad enough here. Now, I submit that that is a condition that needs investigation. Something effective ought to be done for the protec- tion of these helpless little ones. They are alone in the world, practically, for if they have any rela- tives they are usually so ignorant that they don't know what steps to take for their relief even if they have the inclination, and really the courts don't seem to do much for their protection, probably for the reason that the courts are so crowded with business that it is an im- possibility to give special attention to each case, and so when a guardian comes in and makes a showing that can not be contradicted it is allovi'ed to go through; but surely this condition can be ended and effective supervision secured for the estates of these helpless wards of conscienceless so-called guardians, whose performances are a slander on the name. If there is not something done, these minors will be "ihrown on the State as a business proposition. I say this should not be tolerated, for every one of them is capable of being made absolute]}^ self-supporting. By Senator Teller: Q. Well, that is a matter the new State ought to take charge of, don't you think so? — A. Yes, sir; the State can regulate it if it gets an opportunity; but in the matter of the sale of these buildings, the matter will be carried through probably if something is not done to stop it before the State will be in a condition to act. lam just attempt- ing to refer to matters that ought to be done before the new State is fully organized, for in the rush and hurry of the organization of a new State many things are overlooked that would nave received atten- tion or different treatment had attention been called to them. I know that ultimately the State would have to look after all these FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 137 things; but we haven't a State yet, and we want the matter fixed in the interest of these children. What we ask is temporary treatment, you know, for when we have a State it can and will no doubt look after these matters in the most effective way, and likewise I have no doubt but that many of these abuses will be taken care of in an equally effective way. Now the last point I want to make is this. It is in regard to the educational future of this country. We are here in what has been the Indian Territory for many years, and in this change that is being brought about we, of course, become a part of the grfeat State of Oklahoma. It is claimed that the school lands are worth in the neighborhood of two hundred millions of dollars. That claim is made, but it may be an overestimate, and I incline to the opinion that it is a very large overestimate. Whatever the amount is, it is a very large amount and will yield a large sum, which invested at four per cent, or say 34 per cent, the income from it will be probably in excess of half a million annually, and we are going to add to that by the enabling act $5,000,000, and when we consider that the lands appropriated for the school funds of the new State are in old Okla- homa, and taking into consideration the great number of children in this Territory that will be added to the already existing school popu- lation, it is evident when it comes to providing educational facilities for all these children and bearing in mind the relative income that each section produces it is evident that the children or people in Okla- homa will have some justification in feeling that we are bringing them more burden than help — in other words, that in this matter they are handicapped and the bargain is all in the favor of the Indian Territory. By the Chairman: Q. Inasmuch as Congress increased the appropriation by the extent of this $5,000,000 in view of this very fact, I think that Oklahoma will probably have no cause to complain. At any rate they should not complain, for that was done for tne very reason that the Indian Territory had no school lands. I think that Oklahoma has been very well treated, taken as a whole, and should not have any cause to complain, for I take it that you mean that Oklahoma would complain because of the fact that it had the school lands and the Ter- ritory hadn't any. — A. Yes, sir; that is true, but that is not the way the Oklahoma people will look on it. After they have had it a few years they will reel that it was theirs always and that they had a prior right to it. Q. Well, that won't avail them. — A. I understand that, for every- body knows that that $5,000,000 grant in the enabling act was made in lieu of a land grant; the land in the Territory being all Indian land there could be no grant made of it for school purposes, the Indian title not having been extinguished for a consideration as it had been in what is now Oklahoma. It won't take into account the fact that for a num- ber of years this Indian territory, on account of the tenure under which a great deal of the land will be deprived of the revenue ordinarily derived from taxation of land values, and that this $5,000,000 grant was made also on that accoimt partially. Taxation can not be levied from the fact that the lands held by the Indians are subject to restric- tions, and therefore nontaxable. Now this is a fact that we have to S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 10 138 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. confront — a fact and not a theory — that will produce most unfortu- nate results in the rural or more remote districts — in districts where there are more Indians, for the more Indians there are in a community the less land there is subject to taxation; and as I say, this is unfortu- nate for. rural districts. It is going to make it almost impossible for schools to be organized, and if organized to maintain these schools in those districts where they are to be supported by local taxation. Now the State grant in Okla- homa has been from 50 cents to $1.50 per annum out of the entire land-grant fund, and when we increase that fund by $5,000,000 and at the same time increase the school population by over 100 per cent it is quite plain that we can't expect any very large annual grant from that fund, for the fund will not be sufficient to yield it, to aid in the public schools as far as maintainance is concerned. In the neighborhoods where there is a large proportion of Indian lands the people will have a proposition to grapple with that I fear will tax their resources beyond the limit of endurance, for you must never forget that the communi- ties down here are and for some time will be largely in a primitive con- dition. We look for a large influx of foreign population from other States, but I don't believe that the march of progress here will be as rapid and pronounced as it was in Kansas, and has latterly been shown in Oklahoma. Conditions here are against such development. Therefore I say that in the more remote localities where the Indian population pre- dominate and the land is largely exempt from taxation there is a prob- lem confronting such people, and it is a question in my mind if they will be able to erect their schoolhouses and furnish them in even the most primitive fashion and provide for the other expenses of running the school, paying the teachers' salary, etc., even with all the aid they will get from the State school fund, for under such conditions all the State can do would be merely a supplement not of proportions suffi- cient to be of any real assistance. Now, it is in these very neighbor- hoods that it is of the utmost importance that we have schools, and it is also of the utmost importance in those neighborhoods that possess a class of white children or white people who want schools and will use them. I wish to emphasize this for the reason that if there be such neigh- borhoods — and there are plenty of them, I assure you — where such conditions prevail, and it is essential that they be provided with schools that the children of the better class of white people can attend. For if such are not provided, the better class of immigration which we hope to attract to this coimtry, and which can not be attracted to any locaHty where proper educational facilities do not exist, will pass us by and go on to Texas and other localities, and the country will be filled up with the poorer white people and the Indians vnll be no better off, for they will still have the same old undesirable neighbors instead of neighbors whose example would stimulate them to better things. Q. Have you any suggestion to make that will tend to remedy this condition? — A. Yes, sir; the suggestion I have to make is this. We have in this Territory a very large amount of land that is valuable land — mineral land — we have in large quantities that is very valuable. This land is to be sold Q. What land do you refer to specially? — A. I refer now to the coal lands in the southern part of the Territory. It has already been FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 139 offered for sale, and bids were sent in — sealed bids — bidding' on this land, none of which the representatives of the Government felt were reasonable bids for that property or represented what they felt was the true value of the property. The proposition is now made, mainly by the people of the Choctaw Nation and the Chickasaw Nation, that the surface of these lands should be sold only to actual settlers as soon as possible and the proceeds txirned into a fund — a common fund for division among them. That would make the entire value of these lands considerably less than it is where the whole is included for this purpose only to sell the surface rights to actual settlers, and I think it makes it an entirely feasible proposition — it is an entirely practical and feasible proposition — that the grant given to the new State of Okla- homa on behalf of the Indian Territory, or rather on account of the absence of land available in the Indian Territory for the purpose of making a land grant for school purposes, that that fimd of $5,000,000 should be used for the purchase by the new State of such lands with the provision that the first payments of royalties or incomes that shall accrue from such lands, the first payments shall be made to meet the deficit in taxation that shall accrue on account of the nontaxability of land in the neighborhoods where Indians live. Q. Well, I am seeking information, and we are all seeking infor- mation. That is what we are down here for. You have proposed what you tetro. a remedy for certain conditions which you have described. Now, would that remedy that you propose meet the situation? Are not the coal lands of which you speak, the prop- erty of the two southern nations rather than the property of the Five Civilized Tribes? Therefore, when these coal lands are dis- posed of either in that way or in any other way, would it not be a fair and just claim that it should be entered in the funds of the State to the credit of that portion of the State from which it was derived or where the land was situated ? As a general propo- sition, would you not say that would be the fair and equitable way of doing it ? — ^A. My proposition is that that should not be taken away from the Indians; but the Government is not going to pay to the Indians this $5,000,000. It is not a payment to the Indians in exchange for anything. It is a gift to the State of Oklahoma in lieu of school lands in the Indian country. It is going to the State of Oklahoma. Therefore it does not belong to one tribe more than another, and my proposition is that the Government should seciue for the new State these coal lands and turn them over to the State for its control in lieu of the payment of this $5,000,000. I simply offer this proposition for your consideration, and I am confident that you will appraise it at its true value. I don't know, however, how it will strike you, but I feel that at least it is a propo- sition that is worthy of some consideration. I confess that I am no judge of these matters, but in the opinion of people who are con- sidered to be competent to judge I am assured that it is a worthj proposition. If it is done there is no manner of doubt but that it would bring in a princely income for many years to come. Q. Then, for the purposes of your plan, you would not make the value, of the coal in these lands to exceed the sum of five million dollars, which the Government has already guaranteed to Oklahoma? — A. Well, that is a detail that I haven't figured out. I think if the Government gave them — the Indians — that sum for the mineral in 140 E'lVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. the land that they would probably realize more in that way than they ever will be able to realize in any other way. This does not propose to interfere with the surface of the land, and the way I look at it, absolute justice would be done to the Indians. Now, you understand my plan is to take out of the first payments that are made for royalties enough to equalize the matter of taxation, and then the Indian neighborhoods would be the easiest places to establish schools, and good schools, for at once there would be a cer- tain income derived from this source that would be dependable and certaui; and there would be no ground to discriminate against Indian children on the ground that their parents did not pay taxes. It would leave no ground on the part of the white people who have to pay taxes to complain against the children of those who do not have to pay taxes coming to school. And so I conceive that if you gen- tlemen will investigate this matter as you go through the Territory, bearing in mind this suggestion, you may see it as I see it, and my suggestion may yet bear fruit. It is merely a suggestion given to you as it was given to me, and I have talked the matter over with several people who have thought that it was entirely feasible, and I now lay it before you with a view of interesting you and seeing if something can't be done for the purpose of increasing and placing on an ample basis our new State school fund. We have a great country down here and its future prosperity and upbuilding lies very near to my heart. True it is that we have our grafters down here and plenty of rascals of one kind and another, but where is the community that is not afflicted with that class; but while we have them, we have, on the other hand, a substantial majority of citizens who are honorable and straightforward and who are all wiUing and anxious to take their part, and more if need be, in assisting in the upbuilding of this great country, and all of whom are willing to cooperate with Congress in every way possible in seeing that justice is done these Indian people and that their children are afforded a sure and certain means of acquiring an education. We realize the many disappointments that have fallen on them, the difficult and arduous path that they have been forced to follow, the delays and procrasti- nations, the changing of policies, one change speedily following the other, until at length to the untutored mind of many of them all has been reduced to chaos, and they know not where they are or what to do. We realize that the situation to them is indeed one of great per- plexity, and we all feel that it is our duty to have things established on a basis that will be stable and permanent and make it easier for them, and above all things to provide for them an education that will render them capable of coping with the problems of civilized life from which there is no escape. It is our hope to confer this gift on the rising generation and to aid the present generation all that is in our power in the same direction. We realize the supreme importance of impressing this on the minds of the children as early in life as possible, to educate them in right ways of thinking and living, and divorce them as much as possible from the past and all its traditions; and so it is that I make these suggestions in the hope that something will be wrought out of them by others more capable of solving the problem in a satisfactory and practicable manner than I. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 141 By Senator Long: Q. How long have you been here? — A. I first came here in 1884, but I did not stay long. I went away and then came back here in 1890, and I have been here ever since. Q. What business have you been in? — A. In 1884 I came here and taught in the seminary, and then for a time I was a missionary, and since I have been back here I have been president of Henry Kendall College. Q. You are the president of the institution? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that a college of the Indians ? — A. Yes, sir; it is an institution of learning for all the tribes. Q. You have traveled aroimd amongst these Indian tribes quite extensively, I take it? — A. Yes, sir; quite extensively. Q. And you are reasonably familiar with them and their condition and method of living ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I ask these questions for the reason that I would like to have your views on the question of the removal of the restrictions. — ^A. Well, very briefly stated ; for that is what you want, I suppose. Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, my views on that question, briefly stated, are just these — that the restrictions should be removed from those who are not full-blood Indians just as soon as possible, to the end that the number of people who have to be cared for in this manner will be reduced. Q'. All those on the rolls are not of Indian blood. I am informed that all the Indians carried on the full-blood rolls are not full-blood Indians? — A. That is my information, too. Q. As to those on the rolls who are not of full Indian blood the restrictions are removed practically. You understand it to be the fact that the restrictions are practically removed from those of mixed blood ? — A. Well, there are others on the rolls that are practically of Indian blood that don't show — the overwhelming majority of half- breeds — there practically is no difference between them and the major- ity of citizens in other States that are wholly of white blood. As far as the Indian is concerned, I don't think that any pressure should be put on him, but I think a fair opportunity should be given him to prove himsel fcompetent, and when he has demonstrated his compe- tency I think that he should be allowed the same discr'etion to manage his own affairs that is accorded other citizens who are not under restriction. Q. What do you say as to the present method of removing restric- tions through the Secretary of the Interior and the Indian agent? What is your opinion as to that? Is it one of criticism rather than indorsement? — A. Well, the criticism rather than the indorsement is this, that it really does not do anything positive. Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. I mean that it is entirely negative. Q. That the effect of the policy is negative ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you mean by "negative"? — ^A. It simply ties the hands of these people. Q. Well, explain how it ties them up in practical operation. — A. Well, in practical operation the Indian gets in a position where he needs money, or thinks that he does, and when he thinks he needs it the effect is the same as if he did need it, and it seems to me that he can't get his restrictions removed without unwinding what seems to 142 FIVE CIVILIZED TElBfig. me to be a very formidable amount of red tape. There is a great deal of formality about the operation, and that seems to me to be something that is wholly unnecessary. The difficulties thrown in the way of getting restrictions removed are so formidable and onerous that it seems like a hopeless task to the Indian, and when he wants this money he is ready to take anything that he can get for his land, and that is where the grafter gets in his work. He knows the Indian; he knows that he wants money, and he makes a bargain that he will give him so much for his land and get his restrictions removed, and he makes a bargain with the Indian, sets the machinery in motion to have the restrictions removed, pays the Indian a little money from time to time until the restrictions are removed, and then he takes the land at a mere moiety of its actual worth, and the Indian haviag made the bargain, although he is under no legal obligation to convey it, will almost invariably stand by his bargain and let the grafter have it. These Indians have a very high regard for their word, and when they make a bargain to do a thing if the other party to it lives up to his part the Indian will almost invariably live up to his part of it. Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. I mean that he will give a bond or his word that he will sell his land for so much after the restrictions are removed — now this refers to the full blood — and when a full-blood Indian gives his word that he will do a thing, if he makes a bargain, good or bad, he will stand to it. I don't believe that in one case out of a hundred he will appeal to the courts to help him out of a bad bargain. Q. So he makes a bargain and the person with whom he makes it takes the full responsibilty of getting the restrictions removed? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And then in that way the purchaser, whether he be a grafter or some one else, gets the property at a price below its real value? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In that case, the fact that the purchaser took it at a price grossly in default of its real value would entitle such purchaser to the appellation of "grafter," for it is by such practices that the grafter acquires his name and reputation. Is that not true ? — ^A. It is. Now, if you will permit me I will add this — the entire difl&culty is this: Under the present system it is very hard for an Indian to find out the actual value of his property, for it is usually gone out of his hands before there is any way by which he can establish or know its prac- tical value. If a man has a piece of land which he is prohibited from selling or disposing of there is no way of finding out what it is worth. That would apply equally to anything else that a person might pos- sessandwas forbidden or debarred from selling. There is not enough of this land thrown on the market for him to know what his land is worth or about what it is worth, and so he takes whatever is offered him for it, when he gets hard up and needs money; so the grafter, knowing his necessities, approaches him and they make a bargain on the ground whereby the Indian agrees to sell the land to the grafter or to some one else for him for so much money, and the grafter agrees to get the Indian's restrictions removed, and as soon as they are removed the grafter gets the land for a good deal less than it is actually worth. Q. Then I understand you to consider that the present system is very objectionable ? — A. Yes, sir. Five civilized tbibes. 143 Q. And in actual practice your observation is that it does not work out to the benefit of the Indian?— A. No, sir; I don't think it does at all. Now, if I am permitted Q. Yes, sir; you are permitted to say anything you want to. — A. Well, I was just going to remark that my idea is that when they were appraising the land they should have appraised the Indians and found out what their capacity for doing busmess was, and the ones that were incapable and needed guardians should have had guardians appointed to manage their business, and those that did not need guard- ans should have been allowed to go and attend to their business. Q. Your idea is that the Indians should have been appraised instead of the land? — A. Yes, sir; well, I think both should have been ap- praised; but this idea that all the. Indians are alike is ridiculous. There is just as much difference in their capacity to manage their affairs as there is among white men. There are white men who are incapable of managing their own business. All of us have known instances of white men who inherited estates and ran through with them in a manner that would do credit to any Indian; and this way of assuming that aU Indians are incompetent to look after their own affairs is preposterous. I will say this, however, that the percentage of Indians capable of prudently managing their business affairs, m my opinion, is not as large as it is in the white race. Q. What about the removal of restrictions? — A. WeU, I don't believe on the other hand that there should be any sweeping removal of restrictions as far as they are concerned. That, in my opinion, would be just as foolish as the present system of grading the Indians as all of a piece and all of the same mental caliber. On the mixed bloods they should be removed entirely Q. You think on the Indians of mixed blood that the restrictions should be entirely removed? — A. Yes, sir. I think the new State will enact such a good homestead law that in practice it will prove to be aU the protection they need. Restrictions could not do any more than that for them. Q. Oh, yes; it could totally prohibit the alienation of the home- stead ? — A. Well, I understand that a homestead law can be enacted that will do the same thing. I understand that mortgaging or pledg- ing the homestead can be prohibited. Q. Yes, sir; but that is not done? — A. I understand that it has been done elsewhere, and what has been done elsewhere can be done here. It would be a good plan anyway to prohibit the alienation or pledging of homesteads everywhere, except by a volimtary sale. I mean by that to exempt them from execution for the payment of debts, for it is better that creditors should go without their money than that people be thrown on the community. Now we have a great many intelligent full-blood Indians who are great people toma'nage their affairs. There is many such who have demonstrated their ability in that line and it is absurd to restrict such on anything. My idea is that some court or tribunal should be established right here in this country where any such may go and after due hearing have their competency to manage their affairs passed on by that court or tribunal and be adjudged to be either competent or noncompetent. One great difficulty down here is the remoteness from the final arbiter who passes on aU these questions and the time it takes to get any action. 144 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. I understand you to say that you have been a missionary down here? — A. Yes, sir; it is a mission school. I have acted as mission- ary. Q. Well, do you express the opinion of people engaged in mission- ary work down here in the Indian Territory when you say that the restrictions should be removed from the Indians of mixed blood ? — ^A. I think so. Q. But you don't intend to express or reflect the opinion of the mis- sionaries in the East, who have never been closer than a thousand miles to the scene of action and who are firmly of the opinion that it would be a crime to remove these restrictions ?^-A. Oh, no; I am basing my opinion on what I have personally observed. Q. Then you don't agree with these eastern missionaries? — A. No, sir. Q. What is the scope of your work here and what is the character of your teaching ? — A. I have stated in effect what our method is. We try to make the people a better people and try to teach them Q. Yes; I understand. I overlooked that. Now, you say you are in favor of removing, without qualification, the restrictions of the mixed bloods. Are you aware that there is a very strong oppo- sition in the East among people engaged in Indian affairs — such as missionary work among them at long range — against the removal of these restrictions on any ground? — A. Oh, yes; I am aware of it. I had the opportunity of speaking at Mohawk a year ago last month, and I found out that there was a strong sentiment existing against it. There was not much said publicly about it, although I spoke pubhcly. Q. You found a pretty general interest in it, didn't you? — A. Oh, yes; there was a great deal of interest in it, but not much public dis- cussion. I will say this that the inclination there seemed to be ia the line of removing the restrictions and throwing them entirely on their own resources. Mr. Evans submitted the following: Educational Conditions in Indian Territory. Facts and statistics submitted by Rev. A. Grant Evans in connection with his statement before the Senatorial Committee at Yinita, November IS, 1906. I. It is urged that Congresa provide for the continuance of the present system of Indian schools, at least until June 30, 1908, and that the supplementary grant for extendiBg the benefits of the day school part of this system to whites and other non-Indian citi- zens be increased to at least $250,000; also that the expenditure of this sum be expressly managed so as to include the Quapaw Agency, in which it has not yet been possible to inaugurate any system of schools outside the incorporated towns. The following facts will make plain the reasons for the above request: 1. As the constitutional convention has only just been elected, it can hardly be expected that the new State government will be in operatf ion before the summer of 1907. It will be impossible to have any funds from State taxation available for school pur- poses before 1908. An interruption of such schools as we have would be disastrous to the present generation of school children and would be specially hurtful to the Indian children who have been provided with school privileges out of tribal funds for half a century and upward. 2. No dollar of the appropriation asked could be used in incorporated towns which have municipal government and can tax themselves. These have never asked any help in this way. A number of the towns are expending as much' as half their entire revenue from taxation for the support of their public schools. Without any help what- ever from outside, these towns have built up most creditable school systems. The FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 145 help is asked entirely for rural communities where, under the legislation of Congress, it is entirely impossible for the people to tax themselves. 3. The provision of means to make what are practically common schools for the white and Indian children on the one hand, and Indian freedmen noncitizen negroes on the other, will do more than anything else to make a homogeneous citizenship of the mixed population of the new State, and it will be for the Indian a most valuable step in the direction of establishing his status side by side with the white man. On the other hand, the dropping of such schools or the failure to create them means that in the full- blood Indian neighborhoods, as well as the rural districts generally, the class of white people who care nothing about education for their children will settle. No worse injury could be done the Indians at this time than to maintain conditions which make it inevitable that their nearest neighbors will belong to the most ignorant and shiftless class of white people and negroes. 4. The urgency of the need as far as the new State is concerned is shown by the fol- lowing figures: Oklahoma Territory, according to the latest figures, has a population of within a very little of 200,000 young people between the ages of 6 and 21. The latest figures I have show an enrollment of considerably over 150,000 in Oklahoma schools. At the last census there was only a difference of 6,000 between the population of Oklahoma and that of Indian Territory. It is believed that in the past six years the rate of increase in Indian Territory has been fully as large or larger than that of Oklahoma, and the recent vote on the constitutional convention would seem to fully justify this belief. There can be no doubt that Indian Territory ought to have as large an enrollment in schools as Oklahoma. The Oklahoma figures include nothing but public schools. Indian Territory enrollment, according to the latest reliable figures, is as follows: Children in Indian and combined day schools 60, 476 Children in schools in incorporated towns 26, 859 Children in Indian boarding schools 2, 301 Children in private and denominational schools 2, 330 Total , . 91, 966 Thus upon the most conservative estimate it is shown that not more than three-fifths of the young people who should be in school are provided with school places. 5. This condition is inevitably making our unenviable condition as to illiteracy much worse. The figures of the Census Bureau, which follow, show how serious this is: Per thousand. Illiteracy in Oklahoma 30. 3 Illiteracy in Indian Territory 260. It is pointed out that the condition making so high a percentage of illiteracy almost inevitable has been brought about by the action of Congress or its failure to act, while the people of the Territory were deprived of all power to attempt any remedy of the condition. 6. The splendid results produced by the comparatively small appropriations made in the past few years are urged as an argument for an increase of the work which has been done with such economy. The following figures make a showing of the results accomplished in the first two years in which supplementary appropriations were made: Appropriations for the vear — 1904-5 ". 1100,000 1905-6 150,000 1906-7 175, 000 Showing of work in first two of these years. Nation. Schools. Indians. Whites. Indian freed- men. Non-Indian negroes. 1905. 1906. 1905. 1906. 1905. 1906. 1906. 1906. 1905. 1906. 209 164 107 16 250 278 219 161 16 316 3,690 1,758 647 71 6,606 3,006 375 694 24 6,760 6,427 5,805 3,155 838 5,199 13,670 12, 899 6,991 1,000 8,270 425 739 1,291 148 160 975 1,271 Creek 927 21 862 985 25 864 2,277 209 Cherokee . . . . 191 Totals 746 990 12, 472 10.869 21,424 42.830 1,810 1,864 2,763 4,923 Increase C-f) or decrease +24i -1,613 -K21.405 -54 +2,160 146 I'lVfi CIVILIZED TRIBES. The above table shows that the grant of $100,000 for the year 1904-5 gave some school- ing to 21,424 whites and 2,763 non-Indian negroes, or 24,167 children altogether. This would be at the cost of a fraction over $4 per capita. In the following year, with $150,000, schools were provided for 42,830 white children and 4,923 non-Indian negroes, or for 47,753 children altogether. Thus the average cost for each child given some school advantages during the year was only a fraction over $3.14. Comparing this amount with the common cost of providing day-school privileges for children, it is found that in the towns and purely Indian schools the expenditure per capita varies from $15 to $25 per annum. Voluntary subscription schools have found that the least they can be run on is an average of ?2 per capita per month, or $18 for a nine-months' session. As a large majority of the schools aided by the grant run for eight or nine months, it is evident that the fund is most economically administered. In view of the fact that Indian Territory has at least 60,000 children who have no school places, swell- ing the ranks of the illiterate, and the further fact that these can be provided with some fair opportunity at an expense of only about $3 per capita per annvmi, the grant for next year should be increased by at least enough to provide places for 25,000 of them. This would mean increasing this year's grant by $75,000 and making it in all $250,000. 11. The second matter to which it seems urgent that attention should be given is in the steps necessary for as advantageous transfer as possible of the present school system to State control. The Indian nations have upward of 20 good school buildings used for boarding schools, orphanages, etc. According to the terms of the treaties, when the affairs of the tribes are wound up, these are to be sold and the proceeds divided. If they are sold without reference to the special purposes for which they are adapted, they will evidently only realize' a small part of their value. Besides this, there will be the waste of much valuable property, which would be most useful for the educational and benevolent work of the new State. The suggestion is most respect- fully made that either the United States should buy these with a view to transferring them to the new State, or they should be put into the hands of a commission empow-' ered to sell them to the State or to societies doing educational work in the new State for the uses to which they are well adapted. Further, it is urged that the asylums for orphans and other entirely dependent classes should not be discontinued, but arrangements made so that they can be handed over eventually to the new State for the continuance of their present work. While the tribal grants which have maintained these will necessarily soon be withdrawn, it is confidently believed that the estates of the inmates of these institutions would and should provide means for maintaining them, so that they shall not be an additional burden to the State. All these orphan and afflicted children have estates which should be developed and made productive. This may involve the appointment of a public guardian for them, or a commission of guardianship. This is a most important matter, as there is no worse scandal in the affairs of this country than the way in which some of the estates of such children have been and are administered. It is realized that it will not, as soon as the State is organized, be the province of Congress to care for these children, as that duty will devolve upon the State, but it is the duty of Congress surely to see that in closing its administration of these affairs it leaves them in such a condition that there will be the likelihood of the best provision being made for these helpless little ones. It is simply urged that no more important matter could demand the attentive care of Congress. III. It is urged in the last place that the grant of $5,000,000 provided in the enabling act of last June does not adequately discharge the duty of Congress with regard to the future educational conditions of the Indian Territory part of the new State. It is claimed in Oklahoma that the school lands there are equivalent to a fund o£ about $20,000,000. As the cash income from this source last year was over half a million dollars, and as the Commissioners are allowing some of the rentals of the lands to be used in improvements, and as the rent charged is 4 per cent and less of the assessed va-luation of the property, the Oklahoma valuation is probably not too high. It is said that Indian Territory being joined to Oklahoma adds not more than 25 per cent to the school fund, but adds 100 per cent to the school population. While it is true that Congress has been lavishly generous in this matter to Oklahoma, with the prob- able thought that it was making provision for the whole of the new State, it is certain that the people of Oklahoma in a great many instances do not so regard it. Undoubt- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 147 edly this inequality will be one of the causes which will make it hard to maintain a spirit of practical unity between the parts of the new State, which have been allowed for so many years to grow apart. With its immense school fund Oklahoma has been able to make annual grants to its public common schools of from 50 cents to $1.50 per capita per annum. If the whole State shares alike, it is quite plain that this annual gi-ant can be nothing like as large as the grants made recently of a little o^'er |1 per annum. Plainly such grants can only supplement in a very limited way what must be done by local taxa- tion. As an offset to the fact that Indian Territory is being given no school lands as have been given to Oklahoma and the Western States generally, it seems plain that the $5,000,000 grant is quite inadequate. But absolutely no provision has been made by Congress to offset its action in depriving the eastern half of the new State for many years of a large part of their natural revenue from taxation. This must inevitably work most unfairly and disastrously to the part of the State which has been known as Indian Territory, and especially must the effect upon the Indians, particularly the full bloods living in the more remote rural dLstricts, be most injurious. It will mean that the districts in which there is anjr considerable amount of Indian land, and so in which the Indians are living, will either be unable to support any school system at all or will only be able to do it at a heavy expense to the white people. If no schools can be supported the Indians are still forced to have as their nearest neighbors the shiftless and ignorant class, who readily consent to live where they can do nothing to educate their children. If schools are supported, those who bear the burden of their maintenance are almost inevitably certain to feel that it is unfair that they should bear the extra burden of educating Indian children when the Indians' exemption from taxation is making their own burdens of taxation unduly heavy. The tendency will undoubtedly be to exclude Indian children from the schools, and to discriminate unjustly against Indians in the taxation of their personal property. Some of the Indians- in Oklahoma already complain bitterly of such discrimination. Thus, unless some further provision is made, it is inevitably that the eastern part of the State, and especially the full-blood Indians, will suffer very seriously. It is respect- fully suggested that it is in the power of Congress, to a considerable extent, to rectify this injustice. An additional grant should be made, which might include the Indian school buildings above referred to, and a sufficient sum to purchase Indian coal lands beneath the surface, and made over to the new State for the definitely expressed pur- pose of offsetting the exemption from taxation of the lands held by Indians in the eastern part of the State. It should be stipulated that the first income from this grant must be applied to help- ing the districts m the land thus held under exemption to maintain public schools. Those districts in which Indians live might thus be made the easiest districts in which to organize school systems. When the State accepts the grant it should be required to give assurances that in the use of this fund no school shall receive anything from it which is not freely open for Indian children to take their places side by side with the white children, and noncitizen negroes to take their places side by side with the Indian Freedmen. It is believed that in view of the fact that the proceeds of the sale of their property is to be used to secure important advantages for them, the Indians would be willing to sell to the Government, or by arrangement of the Gov- ernment, at a price which would not be large in view of the situation. It is going to be one of the hardest matters to give the more ignorant of the Indians the help they will sorely need under the new conditions forced upon them. What more helpful work could be done in this direction than to make it possible for their children to be educated side by side with white children; to make them a help instead of a hindrance to their white neighbors in the matter of securing schools, and to give county super- intendents the means of organizing and carrying on schools in the most difficult neighborhoods as far as income from taxes is concerned, upon condition that in using this Indian fund they see that the Indian child is not deprived of any of the benefit which it is meant to bring him. No bids received for the coal lands have been con- sidered adequate. Thus a fair price from the Government seems the very best thing the Indians can hope for in the sale, and if that price should seem a large additional sum to give to the new State, it surely could not be too large if it does anything to assure for the real Indian people, who have had all the hardships of the present con- ditions forced upon them m spite of their repeated and solemn protests, so reasonable a measure of protection and hope. The committee adjourned till tomorrow, Wednesday, November 14, 1906, at 9 a. m. 148 ^IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ViNiTA, Ind T., Wednesday, November I4., 1906. The committee convened at 9 a. m. at the Commercial Club rooms. Present: Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming (chairman), Long, Brandegee, and Teller. The T!h AIRMAN. It was annomiced at the close of the session yester- day that this morning there would be considered matters in connec- tion with coal and oil leases. There is another matter to be presented by a gentleman who has been waiting upon the committee for an opportunity to be heard for sometime and is desirous of leaving the Territory, and as his matter will take but a short time we will take that up first. STATEMENT OF MR. CHESTEK HOWE. The Chairman. State your residence and occupation. Mr. Howe. I am an attorney and my address is Washington, D. C. Mr. Chairman and gentleman of the committee, the matter which I desire to present is a Cherokee matter or it would not have been pre- sented to you here. As I am in the way of these people who desire to get at this question of restrictions and oil and gas leases, I will be very brief. I had hoped Mr. Hastings would be here ; as a matter of fact I pre- sumed that a representative of the Cherokee national government would be present at Vinita. He is not here and I desire to file a copy of the petition which this committee is addressing to the select Senate committee with the understanding that he shall have an opportunity in Washington to appear and defend any matter presented by that petition. Senator Long. What gentleman is that you refer to ? Mr. Howe. Mr. Hastings, the attorney for the Cherokee Nation. The only matter which I care to settle before this committee is the correctness of the statement of facts contained in this petition addressed to your committee by a committee of Cherokee clients of mine who think they have wrongs which can only be righted by legis- lation, and I filed, I think, a number of copies of that petition with the committee at Kansas City, and I do not care to make any statement in regard to the matter except a statement of fact just short enough so that you may see and understand the question involved, and so that any person may controvert any statements of fact if they are state- ments of controversy. The Cherokee clients whom I have the honor to represent are a small body of persons — the wheat winnowed out of the chaff — ^who, by reason of general legislation in reference to citizenship matters in the Cherokee Nation, have been grievously wronged. They are persons of Indian blood, residents of this nation, qualified at law and in fact as Cherokee Indians, but not enrolled at the time of the passage of the act of March 3, 1893, under which the Cherokee Outlet was transferred to the Government, and by provision of which the Cherokee national government was permitted to judge itself as to who were and who were not intruders. There was cause and reason for that legislation. The Government had not kept its promise to the Cherokees. There were probably 25,000 people in this country who had no right to be here and had simply come upon the better lands and taken them and held them, sometimes FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 149 for grazing purposes and sometimes for agricultural purposes. There were in the country a few families who were Indians by blood and resi- dents in good faith for years who were not on the roll when that legis- lation was passed. When the government of the Cherokee Nation was given the right to oust and move out the intruders they made a roll of over 2,800 families who were not on the roll The Chairman. Who were living here not members of the tribe ? Mr. Howe. As they viewed it. Senator Teller. Were they Indians, all of them? Mr. Howe. Many of them were not, but there were included on that roll about one hundred families who were really Indians. The Chairman. Those are the ones whose interests you represent ? Mr. Howe. Those are the ones whose interests I represent. Those people came before the Dawes Commission in common with the other of the 30,000 — there were 30,000 applications filed for citizenship; there were ninety days to consider 30,000 applications; there were 3 commissioners here on the ground, and part of them were away a part of the time. If you will figure it up there was less than eight minutes for each application. They were rejected almost in toto by the Com- mission to the Five Civilized Tribes, the Commission taking it that authority was had by the United States court to review their decisions and correct any errors. They appealed to the court of the northern district — and let me say they appealed, I am informed, out of those 30,000 cases, about 150 cases, the more meritorious ones. Those people went before Judge Springer and the cases were referred to a master in chancery. He made findings of fact and in those cases he found these people to be Indians at law and in fact. Senator Teller. All of them ? Mr. Howe. All that I represent who have the master's findings. Those findings were filed in court; some were approved and the others not disapproved. That had to be, because the nation came in and filed demurrers which were sustained on the sole ground that they had not been on the roll and that the court had no authority to grant them a place on the roll. Their idea was to place themselves on the rolls, and the proceedings were for that purpose. The holdings of Judge Springer in the northern district were to that effect. Judge Clayton, in the central district, held that in order to be enrolled an Indian must show that he was an Indian by blood and a resident of the nation. Judge Towitsend held, in the southern district, that he must be an Indian by blood, but not necessarily a resident of the nation. Judge Springer held that he must be an Indian by blood, a resident of the nation at the time of the passage of the act. We are confronted by three holdings of three judges. They came to Wash- ington and asked the right to appeal; the nation also asked the ri^ht to appeal from the judgments in the southern district and the central district, and Congress put together the two demands for appeal and granted them. In the Stephens case, decided May 15, 1899, found in 174 United States Eeports, 445, the Supreme Court held that their jurisdiction was limited to passage upon the constitutionality of the law giving jurisdiction to the Dawes Commission. There was no trial upon the merits of the case at any time; neither before the Dawes Commission, as they were rushed at the time, with ninety days to consider 30,000 150 E'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. applications, nor before the court, because the whole case went out on demurrer. But they did obtain before the court the report of the master in chancery in their favor, his full findings of fact not denied and no Senator Long. You did not try to do anything under the act of April, 1906, under section 1 ? Mr. Howe. No, sir; for the reason that the Supreme Court of the United States in the Stephens case had rendered judgment sustaining the constitutionality of the act of June 10, 1906, and while it did not render judgment upon the merits of the case, it affirmed the judgment of the district court below. That judgment stood as a bar, and there was no possiblity of any relief under the act of April 26, 1896, in view of that judgment, and no legislative relief. Senator Long. So you didn't make application under that act? Mr. Howe. We have always had our application from the begin- ning. The record shows the application at all times and I don't think the purpose of that act was simply for the purpose of preserving any right to reapply where a man's case was occupying the position this did, and I have avoided encumbering the records by new applications. This is purely a legislative question. These people are the people who came in here and made farms Senator Long. How many of them ? Mr. Howe. The list now is perhaps forty families. The Chairman. How many individuals in those families ? Mr. Howe. Four or five persons to each family, and some deaths in that. Senator Long. Less than two hundred ? Mr. Howe. In my opinion. I am not going to burden you with the facts; but there has never been anything to equal the wrongs of these people. Their homes were taken from them without any recompense. They lost all of their property, they were beggared, and the only cause was that they believed they were right. Mr. Davenport. Do I understand you to say that a single one of the claimants of citizenship in the Cherokee Nation who were denied citizenship by the Commission and by the United States courts were deprived of their homes without recompense being tendered them or paid to them ? I interrupted because I was one of the attorneys who represented the Cherokee Nation in the 188^application. JMr. Howe. They sought temporary relief and obtained it and it is cited in this matter [indicating the petition presentedl. In 1895 they were given the right to have appraised their improvements made prior to Aug-ust 11, 1886, under authority of the Secretary of the Interior. A*board of appraisers was appointed. It held that appraisement must be made of only the improvements made prior to August 11, 1886; that all improvements made in the interim between August 11, 1886, and 1895 should not be considered; that they should deduct from the value of the improvements rental of the land, and where a person's improvements were made by other parties they should not be consid- ered. In the cases referred to here the actual value of the improve- ments ran into many thousands of dollars. His appraisement was $1,117. That was simply the appraisement of those improvements made prior to August 11, 1886. A tender of the appraised value of the improvements was made to Mr. William Stephens, and he FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 151 refused to accept it at that time that tender was made because it coupled with it a presumption or afRrmation that he was improperly on that land in the Cherokee Nation — not a Cherokee citizen. He was claiming that property and all of it by virtue of his blood and citizen- ship. That tender M-as not kept good; it was not deposited with the clerk of the court — I am right in that — because he refused ; the money was taken and spent somewhere else. They never had another tender. The case went through the district court, judgment was rendered ; it went to the Supreme Court, judgment was rendered and no tender was made. This same property appraised by these appraisers lay round over land claimed by William Stephens and his family. It was sold at the town of Tenapah. One Coody called together some people, and all this man's improvements and, as I understand it, not only these improvements appraised at $1,117, but several thousands dollars of otherjmprovements with it, were sold for the magnificent sum of $382. They were transferred for that sum of $382 — sold by the Cherokee Nation — and his only crime was that he had been acting all this time in the contention to establish the ri^ht to citizenship that came to him imqualifiedly by blood. This man is a one-fourth Cherokee by blood. This man's grandfather, at the raid of the- Cherokees in the State of Kentucky, forcibly carried a white girl to Georgia where they were then living. His grandfather was Shoe Boots, chief of one of their clans. His mother was a white woman. His father and his uncle are on the 1851 roll. He came here in the year 1870 imder the invitation of Chief Downing and built a home. He was accused of the crime of petition- ing the Cherokee legislature for enrollment. They were denied on a technicality, but Chief Mays sent a message to the legislature suggest- ing that the claim was honest and it ought to be passed. Senator Teller. Where did he come from here ? Mr. Howe. He was bom in the State of Ohio. His grandmother left her husband when her people found out, after three children were born, that she was alive, and went to visit her friends in Ken- tucky and her daughter grew up there, married a man there, and this claimant was bom in Kentucky. In his boyhood his father moved over in the State of Ohio. As soon as he grew larger he came down, first to Kansas, and then down to Indian Territory. He came first to this country in 1869 and moved permanently in 1870. Senator Teller. Where is he now? Mr. Howe. He is here before this committee to-day, a man stripped of his property. Senator Teller. What do you mean by property ? Mr. Howe. His citizenship in the Cherokee country. There has been no chance for relief in these matters Senator Long. How long have you represented these claimants ? Mr. Howe. Not until after the Supreme Court decided in the Stephens case. Senator Long. How long is that ? Mr. Howe. About five years. Senator Long. How often has this matter been presented to a com- mittee of Congress ? Mr. Howe. Twice. Senator Long. You tried to get this matter in this bill ? Did you present it when the Five Tribes bill was up ? Mr, Howe. No, sir, 152 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Senator Long. Why? Mr. Howe. The people were not tliere; I didn't have the people before the committee. The only thing I did with relation to these people — I had practically given up the matter — but the only thing I did was to go and consult with Mr. Curtis and asked him if there wasn't a possibility of his coming down here some time and examin- ing the conditions. The matter has not been presented to my knowledge to any committee in the two or three — the last two Con- gresses probably. Not since the adoption of the treaty. The mat- ter was presented and urged urgently at the time of the ratification of the treaty with the Cherokees. Senator Long. When was that ? Mr. Howe. In 1902. The matter was opposed by the Cherokee attorneys on the theory that if anything was opened there would flow into this country a multitude of claimants. Senator Long. What merit is there in that contention ? Mr. Howe. We don't ask any relief except that those who have court findings may be included. Senator Long. What would they get now? Mr. Howe. They would get a chance to take a remnant of unal- lotted lands. The Chairman. They would get citizenship rights ? Mr. Howe. They have lost all that. The time has come now to open the door. Congress has been very loath to open any rolls on account of the contention that there would flow into this country a river of applicants. Senator Long. They tried to close the doors in this act, didn't they? Mr. Howe. There have been several efforts to close them. Senator Long. Didn't they go further in this act? Senator Teller. No, I think not. We tried to turn it over to the tribes and let them settle it. Senator Long. That has been the policy all the time. Mr. Howe. That is the correct policy, too, to this extent, that their only opportunity would be, when the time came, that they could be admitted on the merits of their case. They could secure their rights because they had a right to them, and none others would be admitted by the legislation. This very act provides for that; it shuts off those who haven't made application. I refer to relief, if any came to be passed, subject, of course, to the criticism of the Cherokee national authorities and opposed by their attorney. I supposed Mr. Hastings would be here, but as they can be granted relief which will admit none who are not entitled, none who can't show that they are Cherokees at law and in fact, with the sole exception of enrollment, and who have received protection papers from the agent The Chairman. What is that ? Mr. Howe. They went before the agent and proved their blood and he gave them a paper which prevented their being interfered with in their possession of their lands; and on the faith of these papers they went on and got improvements. They have no right of recovery against the nation; no right of recovery against any one. They simply want to receive citizenship which should have been theirs. Senator Teller. And if there is any left they want allotments. The Chairman. Is there any land left ? ETVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 153 Mr. Howe. I understand so. The Chairman. When they come in they want a division? Mr. Howe. They are entitled to everything, but have been kept out simply because of the large number that are not ; and legislation could not be secured which would protect two or three hundred people and admit 30,000 who were not entitled. The Chairman. Mr. Howe, what became of the 30,000 — the bal- ance of them ? Are they here ? Mr. Howe. Some went away, some are here. There was a great rush about that time to make apphcation for citizenship. In the 30,000 there was a large number of people that were claiming, either by intermarriage or by blood, that they were entitled to citizenship and, largely, to hold land. The Chairman. These people who went into court and got judg- ment of the court, are they Indians by blood, all of them? Mr. Howe. Every one. They couldn't be anything but by blood to have secured the judgment. I desire to file with the conunittee for your information the original transcript and master's findings in this case. The Chairman. Is that a single case ? Mr. Howe. One single case; the only one that ever went to the Supreme Court of which a complete record can be filed with your com- mittee. Senator Long. You want to file that? Mr. Howe. Just for your information; I don't expect it to be put in the record. The Chairman. You say some of the master's findings were ap- proved by the court and none were disapproved; what do you mean by that ? Senator Teller. I suppose he means some were approved and others not acted on. Mr. Howe. They were all acted on, but the judgments do not set out afiirmatively that the master's report is hereby approved. Senator Long. Judge Springer held that no matter whether the people were citizens by blood they must show they were enrolled by the national authorities prior to June 10, 1896, and the other courts contend that they had no power to add to the rolls ; that has been the contention of Congress, that the Indians should make up these rolls, has it not ? Mr. Davenport. In the case of the Cherokee Indians against the State of Georgia and others, it is held that if they expected to be mem- bers of the tribe they must come and be readmitted -according to the conditions of the tribe. Mr. Howe. Now, I will explain as to the intentions of Congress. The Dawes Commission came down here in 1893. It is upon the reports of that Commission for the years 1893, 1894, 1895, and up to 1896 that all Congressional action was based. They show that this nation was not competent to make up their roll. Names were added to the rolls by fraud and purchase or stricken from them for the same reason, for the purpose of blackmail, if you want to use that term, and under those reports Congress, on June 10, 1896, empowered the Commission to make a roll; took the authority from the nations and empowered the Commission to make a roll of these five tribes. Senator Long. Then why did you not get in? S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 11 154 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Howe. We went before the Commission and they hurriedly- passed on the appHcation and rejected it. I don't blame the Com- mission. They rejected a large part of the applications on account of time. Senator Long. You mean that 30,000 ? Mr. Howe. They all piled in. They felt that the more meritorious ones had a remedy. The court held, as Mr. Davenport has said, that they had to be readmitted by the tribe before June 10, 1896, or they were not citizens and could not be citizens. Now, the purpose of our appeal to the Supreme Court was to obtain a trial of the case on its merits. Unfortunately the act was so worded that we couldn't get it. No consideration was given to the master's report in the court below. They have been in the boat with the other crowd and swamped when it went over the falls. They have lost homes and valuable ones. They have waited patiently, knowing that the time would conae when there would be a chance to remedy the existing wrong and didn't ask anything else. Nothing that isn't just and equitable under the facts, and the facts can not be denied. (To William Stephens.) Will you stand up just a moment? (To the committee.) Tliis is William Stephens, whose case I have referred to. He is the one man who has a complete record before you. Senator Long. Was it his case that went to the Supreme Court. Mr. Howe. It was his case in which that judgment was rendered. He is here so that you may ask him an_y questions you may desire on any question of fact here raised. The Chairman. What is your post-oifice address, Mr. Stephens? Mr. Stephens. Vinita, Ind. T. Mr. Davenport. In reference to this matter, there are some things I will ask the Senate committee to allow me to add. I was attorney for the Cherokee Nation at the time this case was presented. Mr. Howe. I am glad that Mr. Davenport is present. This will enable us to take up the question more fully. The Chairman. Do you gentlemen want to ask Mr. Stephens any questions ? Mr. Howe. There is also a report of the appraisers, a certified copy which I desire to file. The Chairman. The stenographer had better make reference to it. That is all, Mr. Stephens. Mr. Howe. Mr. Stephens wanted me to say to you that he never got before the Dawes Conxmission, although he desired to appear before it personally. The case was decided on affidavits. The Chairman. As were many others. Mr. Howe. It was a physical impossibility for them to take the cases up personally. I am not complaining of the Commission, as I said before. The follo^ving memorial was filed: To the honorable Select Committee of the United States Senate on Affairs in Indian Territory: The undersigned Cherokee Indians by blood respectfully represent that they are a duly selected committee representing certain claimants who deem themselves greatly ■wronged by the legislation heretofore enacted with regard to the enrollment of the Cherokee people, and, feeling that they have grievances which can only be remedied by Congressional action, respectfully ask permission to lay before your honorable com- mittee, and through it the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate, the following facts; FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 155 That, through, inadvertence, there has been excluded from the rolls of the Cherokee Nation a number of persons who are Indians in law and fact and who have been for from twenty-five to forty years residents in good faith of the Cherokee Nation, with undis- puted Indian blood and rights therein, the sole objection to the enjoyment of which has been the fact that they were not enrolled upon any of the tribal rolls, and that thereby a great injustice has been done. This difficulty arose from the following facts: The Cherokees acquired their title to their home under the treaty of New Echota of December 29, 1835, and this treaty, while it contemplated the establishment of a Clierokee national government, also contemplated the enjoyment of equal rights by all Cherokees. After the emigration repeated invitations were sent to their brethren in the East to jointhemintheWest, and the term "brethren in the East" did not apply to those who remained and are now known as Eastern Cherokees alone, but to those who were scattered through the country formerly occupied by the nation. In 1841 the Cherokee council extended an invitation by resolution. The treaty of 1846, sec- tion 8, made provision for transportation for those who would consent to join their people in the West, and Chief Downing issued a general invitation to all of the Cherokee people to come and join with the nation. It is true that immediately following the war in 1866 white men who were not Chero- kees began to intrude upon the Cherokee lands, and the legislation directed against these people was just and reasonable, but it was so worded that in the end a great advantage was taken over innocent persons who were bona fide Indians and residents. A number of families having Cherokee blood came to the Cherokee Nation from 1866 to 1886. They met no opposition in the occupation of unappropriated a'nd unim- proved lands. The Cherokee national government at various times appointed commissions to pass upon citizenship, in some cases approving, in others denying, but these claimants whose ancestors were clearly Cherokees were permitted to go before the United States Indian agent — in early days at Tahlequah and subsequently at Muskogee — and there make proof of their Cherokee blood, and were given what is known as "protection papers" — i. e., a finding by the agent to the effect that they had furnished satisfactory proof of their being Cherokees in fact and that they should not be disturbed until they had an opportunity in some way to secure a trial upon the questions of fact. Relying upon these protection papers, these men opened up farms, erected houses, built schools and churches, and were the real and actual persons who made the name of Cherokee synonymous with that of the most advanced and civilized Indians. During this time other persons with no rightful claim to Cherokee blood had also intruded upon the lands of the nation, and against such intrusion the Cherokees right- fully protested. Their protests took form in the ratification of the agreement for the sale of the Cherokee outlet under the act of March 3, 1893, 27 Stats., 641, and therein a great injustice was done in this — that it gave to the Cherokee national authorities a right to say without trial whether or not a man was an "intruder." It is true that there were at this time many properly so-termed "intruders," but a list was imme- diately prepared containing the names of 2,858 heads of families and including the names of about 100 heads of families who were fully entitled under every law, treaty, and Droperly construed enactment. These men saw that their homes were threatened, that their children were about to be disinherited, and, finding no immediate remedy possible, they sought protection in further legislation, which was secured by a provision contained in the act of March 21, 1895 (28 Stats., 903) directing a suspension of proceedings until improvements made prior to August 11, 1886, could be appraised, it being believed that those who had migrated to that country prior to that time were entitled to some consideration at the hands of the government and the officials of the Cherokee Nation. Thereupon a board of appraisers was appointed, who reported upon a total number of 315 cases, and allowed awards in 117 cases of a total amount of $74,180.56. This was subsequently modified by deducting certain freedmen claims, leaving a total award in 89 cases of $68,645.36. The appraisers had no authority to determine the merits of any cases — merely the value of the improvements, after deducting the value of the rental of the land. It was in no sense an adjudication of the rights of the parties. The authorities of the Cherokee Nation then tendered to each of these parties the amount of the award, accompanying such tender by a receipt, in which they waived their claims to Cherokee citizenship, and all claims of every nature whatever against the Cherokee Nation. In the majority of cases, the parties refused to accept the award if obliged to sign such a receipt, there having been no adjudication of their rights, and the tender was not kept good by deposit or otherwise. In 1902 the Chero- kee Nation then proceeded at public auction, held at different points, to sell the improvements appraised, and the bidders being confined to Cherokee citizens, it being known that the sale would be contested, trifling sums were bid for valuable homes. 156 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The matter stood in this condition when the Dawes Commission reported to Con- gress in 1894 and 1895 that the national government was rotten; that citizenship rights therein had been made the subject of barter and sale; that this national government was not competent to make a roll of its citizens, and thereupon Congress authorized the Dawes Commission, under act of June 10, 1896, to prepare a roll of the Five Tribes, applications to be filed within ninety days from June 10, 1896, and to be passed upon within three months from that time, allowing an appeal from such action to the district couit of the proper district. Under the rights so granted, about 30,000 applications were made. Men with no shadow of right other tlian that they desired to obtain something of value, made appli- cation, but among them a small number of rightful claimants. The result was practi- cally a general denial. No other course was possible, considering the time allowed, while the commission was present in the Territory, as, allowing full work by every member for the twenty-four hours of the day, there were about eight minutes to be given each application, and it is fair to say that no decision upon the merits was ren- dered in any of the disputed cases represented by your petitioners. Thereupon, appeals were prosecuted to the district court. These appeals were lees than 200 in number, and constituted the more meritorious class. These people had by this time become poor. They knew they were Indians by blood; they knew that they had been residents for many years in that country; that their children had been born to the allegiance of the nation; that they had exercised every privelege except that of voting, and that they had been included in what is known as the "intruder roll." In some cases they were stricken from the roll after having been enrolled. They sought justice in the court. The judge referred the cases to two masters in chancery to take evidence and render findings of fact. This was done at the expense of the applicants who were appellants, and, in some cases the last cow was sold to pay the expenses. After the master's report had been rendered, finding them to be Indians and residents, the demurrer filed by the nation was, by the district court, sustained, on the sole ground that they were not upon an approved roll. They knew that in the beginning. The judge of the western district and the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes were aware of that fact, their sole object being to be placed upon that roll, and we find this condition in the district courts at that time. Judge Hosea Townsend held in the southern district that the test of citizenship was blood ; that the right came from birth, and where appeal was prosecuted admitted the applicant. Judge Clayton, in the central district, held that Indian blood must be accompanied by bona fide residence, and where both these requirements were shown admitted the parties. Judge William M. Springer held that no matter whether the parties were Indians by blood and bona fide residents of the country or not they must show that they had been enrolled by the national authorities prior to June 10, 1896. In other words, that the Dawes Commission had no power to add to the rolls of the Cherokee people. It is believed by your petitioners and applicants that the purpose in creating the Dawes Commission and granting them this power to make rolls was to give them the right to add to the roll where the party was entitled. Among none other of the nations has it been held to the contrary. Your jjetitioners then sought an appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States, and the same was granted, but the act was so worded that the Supreme Court took jurisdiction only for the purpose of passing upon the constitutionality of the act of June 10, 1896, and, while the facts were proven and admitted, no remedy was granted. We allege that we represent the wheat winnowed from the chaff; that the few hun- dred persons for whom we speak are bona fide Cherokee citizens, whose wrongs have not been equaled in the Western Hemisphere, unless it is by the expulsion of the French from Arcadia. We desire before the closing of the affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes to be allowed a fair presentation, and in proof thereof we refer to one record as being a complete one, and, being a court record, substantiating the facts set forth. This record is the case of William Stevens. The history of this man is as follows: Captain Shoe Boots, Teaskiyarga, a full-blood Cherokee Indian chief of a band of Cherokees, captured a white girl named Clarinda Ellington, in Kentucky, and carried her to Georgia, where she became his wife, and there was born to them three children as the issue of this marriage, two sons and a daughter, one of the sons being William Ellington Shoe Boots, and the other son John Shoe Boots. William Ellington Shoe -Boots's name appears upon the roll of 1851. (He afterwards adopted his mother's name of Ellington.) After the birth of these children the friends of the wife traced her to her home and induced her to return to her relatives and the home of her childhood. She went with her children, and never returned. The daughter, Sarah, married BTVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 157 ■Robert Stevens, a white man in the southern portion of the State of Ohio, and there was born to them William Stevens, a one-fourth blood Cherokee. William Stevens, in response to Chief Downing's invitation, came to the Cherokee country in 1869, and removed there permanently in 1870. There he reared his family, cleared out farms, built houses, and erected improvements, which, in 1893, amounted to many thousands of dollai-s, a portion of which only had been made prior to August 11, 1886. Soon after establishing residence, he made application for his mother and himself for readmission and enrollment as citizens of the nation. The Commission which heard the case was convinced of the genuineness of his claim of Cherokee blood, and so reported to the chief, but rejected his application upon a technical ground. Upon this report Chief Mayes, in a message to the general council, stated his confidence in the honesty and genuineness of the claim, and advised the passage of an act recognizing the applicant as a full citizen, but, for some unknown reason, this was never done. On the 6th day of December, 1873, he went before the United States Indian agent at the agency then located at Tahlequah, in conformity with the practice approved by the Secretary of the Interior, and offered proof showing that he was in fact and law a Cherokee Indian, and was entitled to improve the lands then occupied by himself, and, upon such proof, the following paper was issued to him: " United States agent for CheroJcees, Tahlequah, 0. N., Dec. 6, 1873: " This is to certify that Sarah J. Dictus and William Stevens have brought proof to show that they have filed their claims for citizenship before Cherokee council through the proper channel, but that no action was reached in their case. " I have also information that there is good evidence to show that these parties are Cherokees by blood. They wiU, therefore, not be interfered with until further notice from this office. "Jno. B. Jones, " U. S. Agerdfor CheroJcees." That at no time and in no place have the facts submitted to John B. Jones, Indian agent, as to the blood of William Stevens ever been controverted by the Cherokee Nation, but, after the passage of the act of March 3, 1893, William Stevens ascertained that his name had been put upon the list of intruders "so-called," or upon the intruders roll, and that at that time he had improvements of the value of $10,000.00 upon lands which he owned under the title under which Cherokee lands were held and owned by Cherokee citizens. That later the appraiser appointed by the honorable Secretary of the Interior appraised said improvements, but refused to appraise any except such as were made prior to August 11, 1886, and did not include any purchased by him or made after that time; that said appraisement was to be found on 284 of the list (see House Doc, 54 Congress, first session, No. 116) and the value as then found for such improvements was 11,177.50; that the representatives of the Cherokee Nation tendered this amount to him accom- panied by a receipt in which he waived his citizenship and claims thereto, and that he replied to the same to the effect that he had never had a trial nor a hearing upon the merits of his case; that he was a Cherokee in law and fact, and refused to accept such an amount and sign such a receipt. Thereupon, on October 25, 1902, one John Coody, a representative of the national authorities, collected together a small body of men in the town of Lenepah, and, as an officer of the Cherokee Nation, held a public auction or sale, and sold all of the improve- ments of the said William Stevens for the sum of $382.00. That upon the passage of the act of June 10, 1896, William Stevens made proof of the facts above set forth before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, and upon a denial by them of his claim as a citizen, appealed to the district court. That the case was referred by the judge of the western district to R. P. De Graffenried, as special master, for findings of fact. That said master found each and every allegation of the said William Stevens to be true, and so reported to the court. That after said finding, without any exceptions thereto being filed, the judge of said court sustained a demurrer upon the ground that, not being enrolled by the National authorities, William Stevens was entitled to no relief. That thereupon, under authority gi-anted, this case was appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States, and is reported in 174 U. S., p. 445. That the court, in passing upon this matter, held that the only proposition before it was the constitutionality of the act of June 10, 1896, said court, however, holding on page 488 — "We repeat that in view of the paramount authority of Congress over the Indian tribes, and of the duties imposed on the Government by their condition of dependency, we can not say that Congress could not empower the Dawes Commitsion to determine, in the manner provided, who were entitled to citizenship in each of the tribes and make 158 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. out correct rolls of such citizens, an essential preliminary to effective action in promo- tion of the best interests of the tribes. It may be remarked that the legislation seems to recognize, especially the act of June 28, 1898, a distinction between admission to citi- zenship merely and the distribution of property to be subsequently made, as if there might be circumstances under which the right to share in the latter would not necessa- rily follow from the concession of the former." That, under these decisions and this law, William Stevens has lost the work of a life- time for the insignificant sum of 1382.00, and that this tender has not been kept and made good; but, on the contrary, has been since expended in some other way. That his children have been beggared, his property confiscated, in violation of the fundamental law of the land, but without right of recovery by him in view of his depend- ent condition, due to the wardship of the applicant in the past and the guardianship of the Government both in the past and present. RELIEF PRAYED. Your committee represent that they can furnish records of at least eight or ten cases similar to the case above cited for the inspection of the members of the Select Com- mittee if desired. They file herewith the record in the Supreme Court showing the facts set forth, the appraisement record, a plat of the ground, and offer nothing which is not capable of direct and positive proof. They ask for no relief which will delay the final fclosing of the affairs of this Nation. They are only seeking to make effective and just the laws which have heretofore been passed, and ask nothing which a court of equity would not grant were it not for the special plenary authority which Congress possesses over Indian peopJe. They do request that the Secretary of the Interior be authorized to add to the roll such persons as are found by the court records to be Indians by blood, residents of the nation in good faith at the date of the passage of the act of June 10, 189C, and who under any reasonable construction of the law were actually entitled to enrollment at that time. This will reopen no case, delay no procedure, but simply grant the right to those who are entitled. The records are completely made. The number is small. The justice of the application can not be denied. The masters' reports in every case show the exact status of the people. Only those who are Indians are asking for relief. Your committee respectfully represent that in closing the affairs of this nation their prayer may receive consideration. They further represent that they each of them have been and are law-abiding citi- zens; that they have never been accured of any crime nor charged with any violation of law; that they have stood by and seen their homes taken from them and their chil- dren beggared, relying upon the final justice of the great Government of the United States; that the time has now come for final action. They realize that because there were many who had no rights the few who did have were deprived of that which was theirs; but this condition no longer exists. This can be speediiy, easily, and inexpen- sively granted, and they specially pray for an opportunity to pVesent in a simple and plain manner the facts herein set forth to the full committee of the Senate and for such further relief as may be deemed proper by your committee. Kespectfully submitted. J. H. Hargrove. W. J. Gambill. James McNeal. H. A. Henley. S. C. Hill. STATEMENT OF MB. JAMES S. DAVENPORT. The Chairman. Give your address, please. Mr. Davenport. My post-office address is Vinita, Ind. T. The reason why I ask to make a statement was because of the fact that I went through what was known as the 1896 appHcation of claimants for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation and know practically everyone who made application and know the conditions. Just prior to that time and a few years before the cry went up by claimants who lived in the Cherokee Nation, in Carolina, in Ten- nessee, Georgia,, and almost every other State in the Union that the tribal authorities were unfair, would not give them a hearing, and would not pass on the merits of the case. That being the case. Con- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 159 tress in its wisdom, on June 10, 1906, gave jurisdiction to what was .nown as the Dawes Commission, vesting the power in that Commis- sion to tell and determine all citizenship cases and all claimants by blood to Cherokee citizenship in the Cherokee Nation. The applica- tions were filed ex parte ; testimony was taken. That is to say- that Mr. Stephens made his apphcation — the Commission went from place to place to hold court — where he had testimony he could pro- cure, and he took affidavits of individuals. We represented the Cherokee Nation, and usually followed in his wake or went any other place and got testimony as we could. All that testimony the Com- mission had, and passed upon the Stephens case among a number of others. My recollection now is — I haven't examined the records since 1896 — there were 5,400 separate applications made at that time, embracing 30 or 40 in a family. Mr. Stephens's case was one of those cases. He was denied citizenship by the Commission to the Five Tribes in 1896 and, as stated by Mr. Howe, he appealed to the court, the United States court in the northern district. Judge Springer then presided. He was there denied, and the decision of the Com- mission was affirmed. Just what the master in chancery reported I do not know. Mr. Howe. That was not tried on affidavits that time? Mr. Davenport. It was tried on affidavits before the Commission to the Five Tribes. Senator Teller. It was the only way they tried them, wasn't it? Mr. Davenport. It was the only way they were heard at that time. The case was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes; it was tried by a competent tribunal and the decision of the Commis- sion was affirmed by the courts in the Territory, and in order that not only his, but the cases of all other people in this country claiming rights by Cherokee blood might be determined, the case was appealed to the Sixpreme Court of the United States. The decision of the Supreme Court has been referred to by Mr. Howe. The Congress of the United States provided the right of permanent location by which the Cherokee Nation or an individual citizen of the Cherokee Nation who had acquired any rights that had been made by these parties — many of them, as said by Mr. Howe, had been made under what is known as protection papers you can get that more accurately from the Indian agent's office at Muskogee. In the eighties there was a number of people came to this country and began on the public domain of the Cherokee Nation to make farms and build houses. In 1886, the exact date I can't give, these parties were about to be deported and placed beyond the jurisdiction of the Cherokee Nation under the old law that when objectionable to the tribe they might be removed, and the Indian agent, tipon ex parte showing by the claimants that they had rights, that they had filed their application and it had not been passed upon by the tribe, would stay proceedings under what they called protection papers, forbid- ding their removal until their rights had been adjusted. When Congress went to legislating about improvements, just prior to the act of 1893, 1 think it was, a commission was sent down here by the United States and appraised the improvements made on the public domain in the Cherokee Nation on a certain date, August 11, 1886, and the Cherokee Nation, before they should be removed, should pay to the claimants the sum of money found to be due them 160 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. by those appraisers. That board of appraisers was composed of Joshua Hutchins, Peter H. Pernot, and Clem V. Rogers. They made their report to the Secretary of the Interior. The honorable Secretary of the Interior submitted it to the Congress, and it was approved. The Cherokee Nation went from place to place over the country and Eaid those claimants their money. Some refused to accept it. Mr. tephens didn't accept his money. Senator Long. They offered to pay him ? Mr. Davenport. They offered to pay him; the money was appro- priated. Governor Blackwell, down here, and a number of others, took their money. Mr. Howe. He had had no trial then? Mr. Davenport. It came on time. It stood in that condition. Some had taken the money and continued to occupy the improve- ments. Others, among whom was Mr. Stephens, continued to occupy them and refused to vacate. The United States court of the Indian Territory had to eject him, and he still refused to vacate. There had been a legal tender at this time. It was not deposited with the court. The reason why I will show what the court said why that didn't have to be done. The Curtis bill provided that the nation or an individual claiming rights through the nation, might sue to recover these places held by these parties that had been rejected by the Commission or the court. Following in the wake of that law a suit was instituted, and I am not positive now whether it was a man who bought it from Mr. Coody, whom Mr. Howe has spoken of, or not; but be that as it may, a suit was instituted against Mr. Stephens in the United States court in the northern district of the Indian Territory. Under the Curtis bill, sec- tion 3, it was provided that if the court deemed it necessary, the nation, upon proper affidavit, upon its own motion might make the nation a party to these suits. At this time Mr. Thompson and myself represented the nation. The court held that the nation should be made a party to the suit — the Stephens case — and it was made such party and judgment was rendered after a hearing in court in favor of the nation and for several hundred dollars against Mr. Stephens. He had an opportunity there to have presented all these facts. For the nonpayment of money he had opportunity to present it to a court which had full jurisdiction. He could have presented those claims. Those laws gave him that right. Now, as to the tender. That question was thoroughly fought out Senator Teller. Could the court pass upon the question of citi- zenship ? Mr. Davenport. If the Senator will remember I didn't mention that fact. He had a claim against the nation. His suit was finally adjudicated at that time. So far as any legislation was concerned or law of forum was con- cerned, our law had not been exhausted at that time. It was the rights of the parties in the cases, and that was passed upon. But as to the tender and as to their not having money paid them, that' was fought out in the Cherokee cases over and over and was tried in the United States court in the northern district, went to the court of appeals at South McAlester, Indian Territory, to the United States court of appeals for the eighth circuit and was passed upon by the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 161 court at that place and decided in favor of the Cherokee Nation, and I think you will find, gentlemen, and I think it will be presented to you very forcibly, that every right under God's green earth that these Sarties have have been placed by their own acts and the Cherokee [ation before a competent tribunal to pass upon and they have failed. It is true they want to get on, and we contend that in every forum thus selected by themselves they have failed. They complained that the tribe was not fair; they appealed to the greatest government on earth, and we should contend that after they have been refused by the Commission and the courts that this matter should not be brought before Congress again at this late day. They have had their day, and there ought to be an end to their claim for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation. But the question of the jurisdiction of the court here in Indian Territory was passed on by the Supreme Comrt in the case of Steph- ens et al., the case referred to by Mr. Howe. Mr. Stephens's citizen- ship, as many others, has always been disputed by the Cherokee people, and you gentlemen, even in the Senate, would not undertake to pass upon the question of fact or jurisdiction, after you should go there, with reference to the citizenship of these -people; you would pass upon it as an equitable matter, taking it for granted that they had rights and ought to be protected in that, and not upon the basis of a business proposition or to establish or grant citizenship. You would have to pass upon it as you did in the recent Congress in what is known as the Five Tribes bill, to extend the rights of the freedmen in the Chocktaw and Chickasaw nations to purchase at the appraised value an additional forty acres. You would not pass upon it as a question of fact. We say, as to their being Cherokee people, that has been thoroughly fought out and been adjudicated and held by Judge Springer at the time that they had not been readmitted by the tribe as laid down in the decision in the case of the State of Georgia and Cherokee people against the Federal Govern- ment and the Cherokee Nation. Mr. Howe. Mr. Davenport, I can aid you by saying that we admit we had no standing. We just rely upon the facts referred to the committee. Mr. Davenport. They have had their question as the facts were presented here passed upon in the Stephens case, and I want to say that the record is absolutely conirovertible as to Mr. Stephens being a Cherokee by blood. The testimony in that case showed that he originally claimed that he belonged to another tribe. "That is aU I care to mention unless some of the gentlemen desire to ask some questions. The Chairman. We had better go on with the restrictions ques- tion. Mr. Riddle, do you present that 1 Mr. Riddle. No, sir; I present the matter of oil and coal leases. The Chairman. Then, as we announced at the close of our session last evening, if any of you have anything to present in regard to oil and gas and mineral land situation, we will be glad to hear you. 162 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. STATEMENT OF MR. SEYMOUR RIDDLE. The Chairman. Mr. Riddle, how long will you probably occupy in presenting your proposition? Mr. EiDDLE. Not more than thirty minutes. The Chaieman. You mean the entire discussion of this proposi- tion. Mr. Riddle. I don't know of any other persons present who have come for the purpose of presenting it. The Chairman. Except yourself? Senator Teller. Can you get through in thirty minutes? If you can, I suggest that you go ahead. We can't discuss every question that comes up. Senator Long. You are an attorney here ? Mr. Riddle. I am an attorney, and my address is Vinita. Gentlemen of the Senate Committee: At a meeting of the United Commercial Clubs of the Indian Territory at South McAlester some weeks ago that body selected me to present this subject to you at this point and at this time. I have reduced my remarks to a brief and have attached to it copies of the form of lease and other papers required by the Secretary of the Interior in connection with mineral leases. Under the treaty between the United States and the Cherokee Nation, passed by Congress in 1902, ratified by the Cherokee Nation in 1902, on the 7th day of August, the treaty provided that when the citizen had selected his allotment he might lease the same for mineral Eurposes for a term not exceeding fifteen years and to be approved y the Secretary of the Interior. This power which came to the Secretary of the Interior necessarily gave him the authority to prescribe the conditions upon which he would approve a lease. He has, therefore, from time to time pre- scribed rules and regulations for the leasing of mineral lands in the Cherokee Nation. The form of lease has several times been changed and the rules and regulations have several times been amended, but the rules and regulations and the form of lease which are in force now are the ones I want to discuss. It might be of interest to you to know at this time the extent of the mineral development in the Cherokee Nation. The present oil field of the Cherokee Nation lies from the Kansas line yonder in the north- west down the Osage line to Tulsa^^ a distance of 65 miles. That is what is known as the Deep Well field in the Cherokee Nation. It comprises the Bartlesville and Dewey fields. The other field in the Cherokee Nation is known as the Shallow Well field, and embraces what is known as the Chelsea and Coodys Bluff field, and extends from about 4 miles northwest of Chelsea up the Verdigris River almost to the Kansas line. The other mineral resources of the Cherokee Nation are coal, lead, and zinc, which are wholly undeveloped. The zinc and lead fields of the Quapaw Nation, as you well know, lie yonder at the northeast corner of the Cherokee Nation. It would surprise you, I am sure, and you will no doubt be startled to know that there is now more than 25 great ore mills, and the revenues are tremendous, because the leases and those lands have been developed under the usual form of lease used in the States. In that agency the Secretary of the Interior FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 163 has nothing to do whatever with the mineral leases. The citizens lease them as in the States, and the operator comes in closer touch with the landowners. Hence the splendid development. But in the Cherokee Nation, where the mineral leases must be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, the zinc and lead country dropping right on down through our rough country on the east has been untouched, except by surface prospectors. It is the same way with our coal. We are now within nine miles due north here of the best vein of coal so far discovered in the Cherokee Nation. It is a vein of coal 52 inches thick, of splendid quality, being produced very largely by the owners of the land themselves. Senator Teller. How deep is it? Mr. Riddle. It is about 35 feet under the suiface, and is slope mined. Timber Hill is a hill rising up out of the prairie about 6 miles long and averages 3 miles in width, and the coal crops out on every side. I wanted you to distinguish the difference between develop- ment and production where the Secretary of the Interior has not been interfering and where he has. Under this authority to prescribe a form of lease for lands in the Cherokee Nation the Secretary of the Interior has prescribed a form of lease, and prescribed rules and regulations governing them, a copy of which is hereto attached. Under these rules the lease must be executed in quadruplicate; a written application is required to be attached, together with a certificate of some banker showing that the required amount of money is on deposit and his bond in the sum of $1,500 where the lease does not exceed 80 acres, executed by the lessee with approved security. There must also be filed the affidavit of the lessee showing the value of his property over his liabilities, and the amount of his lawful exemptions. The lease provides for the payment of royalty on oil of 10 per cent and $150 per year on each gas-producing well which the lessee shall use, and $50 per year royalty for each gas-producing well from which the gas is not utilized. Senator Teller. How much per acre? Mr. Riddle. Fifty dollars a well. The Chairman. Right there — I understand the ruling of the Department is that in neither case does the royalty of $150 or $50 cover anything except the gas used for the purpose of developing the tract, or in other words the $150 will not cover the royalty commission. Mr. Riddle. The Secretary retains the right in the lease to regulate that further. I am not sure whether j'ou are right about that; my understanding is that the present rule requires $150 per year per well for any purpose, and $50 a year where the gas is not utilized. The lease contains the forfeiture clause which is usually found in such instruments. When- the lease is properly executed it is filed with the United States Indian agent at Muskogee and by him examined and turned over to be examined by the United States Indian inspector. It is then forwarded to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at Washington and by him examined and finally turned over to the Secretary of the Interior for consideration. The principal objections which the producers of the Cherokee Nation to the form of lease prescribed, and the rules and regulations, are as follows: The lease can not be transferred or assigned except on the written 164 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. consent of thfe Secretary of the Interior. The oil men regard that as no privilege at all. They have found it very hard to induce the Secretary to give his written consent to the assignment of a lease. The transaction is scrutinized closeljj, and if the Secretary finds there is the least indication of speculation his consent will be refused. Senator Teller. What do jou mean by speculation? Mr. Riddle. I mean if I owned a lease in my own name and desired to sell it to some other person, he would iilquire of me why I wanted to do it and how much I Avas getting to do it and whether or not I am speculating on the lease. The Chairman. And whether or not it would be of more value to him than to you? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir Senator Long. Do you mean he doesn't permit you to sell it for a profit? Mr. Riddle. He does not. Senator Teller. Do you mean to say if you had a lease and you were going to sell it for more than you paid for it Mr. Riddle. He would turn it down. If I were to show that I can't go on with my contract and the other fellow could do it, he might approve it after a long delay. The Chairman. What evidence have you of such a situation? Mr. Riddle. I have gone through it. If you are in Muskogee and will ask the Indian agent to furnish you copies of the papers that the Secretary requires an assignor to make Senator Teller. Who is the agent there? Mr. Riddle. Mr. Dana H. Kelsey, a very fine gentleman. The oil operators and those who desire to engage in the operation for oil and gas believe that this is an unjust provision. Individuals hesitate to take leases at all. Many for the reason that they can not assign or transfer them should they become financially embarrassed or otherwise prevented from developing them. If an oil operator having oil leases in his own name should become embarrassed finan- cially the money which he has invested in the oil and gas leases of other leases as well is so tied up that he is unable to realize on his property, making his lease holdings a weight rather than a help in time of financial distress, and if he should die his estate must be kept in court during the lifetime of the lease or the lease be lost to the estate for the reason that it can not be converted into cash on account of the nonassignment clause. It is wrong in principle ; it violates a business rule. The right to alienate is connected with ownership. The lease should be made transferable because the forfeiture clause amply protects the lessor. The great oil fields from the Atlantic to the Pacific oceans have been developed under leases which give the lessee the right to assign and transfer them without the burden of executing a bond for its faithful performance because the forfeiture clause amply protects the lessor. Under the rules and regulations of the Secretary of the Interior, every person or corporation having a lease approved must show that they have $5,000 for each lease in cash for the development of that lease and in addition to this they must show that the cash is deposited in a bank and name the bank and the bank must furnish a certificate of one of its ofiicers to the effect that the money is on deposit subject to the lessee's check and that no part of it has FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. 165 has been borrowed of the bank. I have attached that apphcation and certificate here as exhibits. Senator Teller. That is in the interests of the banks, I suppose ? Mr. Riddle. It is certainly in the interest of the man that has much money. Senator Teller. Yes, I think so. Mr. Riddle. These regulations have kept persons and companies of moderate means from engaging in the production of oil and gas or other mineral in this nation. No individual or corporation without a vast amount of money can comply wdth these rules and the result is that only the very wealthy individuals and corporations of unlimited means have been able to secure the approval of very many oil and gas leases in the Cherokee Nation. I know of one instance where the Honorable Secretary of the Interior refused to approve a lease where the lessee could only prove he was worth $15,000 and was a good business man. Within the last year a few individuals and corpora- tions having leases which they have had approved by the Secretary of the Interior have made working or drilling contracts with certain oil well drillers and oil operators to go upon their leases which they have had approved and drill wells for them, and in consideration for the labor the owners have agreed to pay the drillers a certain sum of money equal to a certain per cent of all the oil and gas produced from the lease. The title to the oil and gas all the time remaining in the owner of the lease, the original lessee, and the settlements made when the oil and gas was sold monthly. The Secretary of the Interior objected to this arrangement and within the last few weeks he has prescribed new rules and regulations and a new form of lease which forbids this arrangement. Let me make tnat pJain. I hold a lease on ten acres; I have had it approved by the Secretary of the Interior. An oil well driller from Pennsylvania comes over to me and says "Riddle, I would like to go on that ten acres of yours and drill it. I place so much confidence in that piece of land that I will drill the wells, equip them, and pay for it myself and you pay me 75 per cent of what you get for the oil. If I don't get oil it don't cost you any- thing." The Secretary of the Interior has positively forbidden it and when he found that the leases which he had already approved could not be disapproved by him he has made a new form of lease in which he expressly forbids that and makes it a cause for cancellation. I want to read it [reading from copy of lease hereto attached]. "It is further agreed" (thS is in the body of the lease. This form has only been out three or four months) " that this lease is made with full knowl- edge of the fact that under the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior governing the leasing of lands in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, lessees are prohibited from being directly or indi- rectly interested in leases, in their own names or in the names of other persons, or as owners or holders of stock in corporations or as members of associations, covering an aggregate of more than 4,800 acres of land in the Cherokee and Creek nations ; that the said prohibition is made a part and condition of thds lease and that the Secretary reserves the right to cancel leases at any time during the period for which they are to run, after due notice as herein mentioned, when he is satisfied that the terms of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter prescribed have been violated in any particular." 166 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Riddle proceeded: In other words, under this provision the Secretary may, upon ten days notice, cancel and annul that lease for any reason he may see fit, and he binds the lessee not to go into court to protect his rights, in the paragraph below. Senator Beandegee. That would be void. Mr. Riddle. It is a part of the lease when a man signs it with that condition stated in it. Senator Teller. I shouldn't think a man of common sense would take such a lease. Mr. Riddle. They have almost quit. Senator Long. Where is that provision in regard to the drilling contracts ? The Chairman. I don't know whether that is in the lease or not. but I know he holds that. Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; it is in the lease. The application is made a part of the lease, and reads as follows: "John Jones, of Vinita, Ind. T., desiring to avail himself of the provisions of section 72 of the act of July 1, 1902 (32 Stat. L., 716), hereby makes application to have approved the accompanying lease for the purpose of mining oil and gas, embracing in the aggregate acres of land situated in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, and agrees that this application shall be considered a part of the lease. John Jones does solemnly swear that the lease presented herewith between John Smith and John Jones is taken in good faith in my interest and for my exclusive benefit, and not for speculation or transfer, or as agent for, or in the interest or for the benefit of any other person, corporation, or associa- tion, and that no 'other person, corporation, or association has any interest, present or .prospective, directly or indirectly, therein, and that there is no understanding or agreement, expressed or implied, by which the land leased, or any interest in or under the lease, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, is to be used, sublet, assigned, or transferred, without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior'ftrst obtained, to any person, corporation, or association, but that it is taken for the purpose of operation and development under my direc- tion, supervision, and control. "That this application is made with full knowledge of the fact that under the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior governing the leasing of lands in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Terri- tory, lessees are prohibited from being directly or indirectly interested in leases in their own names or in the names of other persons, or as owners or holders of stock in corporations, or as members of associa- tions, covering an aggregate of more than 4,800 acres of land in the Cherokee and Creek nations, and that the Secretary of the Interior reserves the right to cancel leases at any time during the period for which they are to run, after notice as herein mentioned, when he is satisfied that the terms of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter prescribed have been violated in any particular, and I further agree not to transfer, assign, or sublet, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or allow the use of the land leased, or any oil and gas in or under it, without first obtaining the consent of the Secre- tary of the Interior." Senator IjONG. Please read that sentence again. Mr. Riddle. It is further agreed " not to transfer, assign, or sublet, by working contract or drilling contract or otherwise, or allow the use FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 167 of the land leased or any oil or gas in or under it, without first obtain- ing the consent of the Secretary of the Interior." Senator Long. He holds that this drilling contract is in eifect an assignment. Mr. Kiddle. Under this new form of lease and application for approval of leases the Secretary of the Interior expressly reserves the right to cancel the lease on ten days' notice for any fancied viola- tion. He has reserved to himself the power, on ten days' notice, to confiscate oil properties by canceling tne leases, and without giving the lessees recoiu-se to any court whatever. Careful business men are afraid of this arbitrary and unusual power, and believe that no man should be given such authority. I have attached hereto copies of the lease, the application, the certificate of the banker, and copies of the last j'ules and regulations of the Secretary of the Interior. Now, we think the Cherokee citizens should be allowed to lease their lands for mineral purposes without approval by the Secretary of, the Interior. Without these burdensome rules and regulations there would be ten persons desiring to lease a body of land where now there is one person. The result would be that the owner of the land would secure a better contract and more money for his lease than he does now. This oil field would be developed as all other oil fields in the United States have been developea under a busmess lease alid in a business way. These rules and regulations, so herd and arbitrary, have resulted in oil operators quitting the field almost entirely. For several weeks no wells have been drilled ia the Cher- okee Nation; there is little demand for leases, and few companies who are able to comply with the rules and regulations are willing to do so. Of course, the low price of ojI is partially responsible for the falling off of the production. The rules and regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Inte- rior for the development of mineral leases in the Cherokee Nation are restrictive in effect and character and have a tendency to restrict the number of persons who are able and willing to engage in the business, and thereby decrease the value of the oil and gas lands in the hands of the Cherokee citizen and reduces the amount of pro- duction and retards this great industry in this country. Every- thing of a restrictive, expensive, or burdensome character which has been placed between the owner of the land and the producer of the oil and gas in this country should be removed, and to the extent that this is done the owner of the land and the producer of oil and gas or other minerals will be benefited. What is said here concerning oil and gas mining leases may ^e said of coal, zinc, and lead. The expense and delay incident to the pres- ent system is discouraging and should be abandoned. The whole system can be changed by the enactment of a law by Congress giving the Cherokee citizen, irrespective of blood, the right to lease his land for mineral purposes absolutely. So long as the matter is left in the hands of the Secretary of the Interior, he has the power and apparently the disposition to retard the development of the great natural resources of the Indian Territory. He no doubt thinks this restrictive policy is to the benefit of the Cherokee citizen, but a personal investigation as this committee is making I am sure will convince you that it is harmful in many ways. 168 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The greater the expense and burdens to the lessee in securing min- eral leases and having them approved the less he is willing to pay the owner of the land to secure the lease, and at last all of the expense in complying with the burdensome rules and regulations concemiag mineral leases is borne by the Indian citizen who has the mineral lands to lease. Put the Indian citizen who has the mineral lands as close to the operator'who has the money to develop them as possible. If there are any questions I will be glad to answer them to the best of my ability. Senator Long. You understand this subject thoroughly. What is the contention of the Secretary as the reason or necessity of these strict regulations? Mr. Riddle. Senator Long, I have never seen or heard an expres- sion from him on that proposition; we know the result, that it makes it possible for a wealthy operator to operate Senator Long. First, there is one proposition against any one corporation obtaining more than 4,800 acres of land leases. Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What is the effect of that ' restriction ? Mr. Riddle. I have always thought that the effect of that was very good except in case of gas. We, and other towns and cities near here, have given franchises for natural gas and it makes it hard for a com- pany to have land enough to produce the required amount of gas to furnish a city, and they are not very anxious to make a contract to supply a large town with gas, because if they have 4,800 acres under lease they can not lease any more gas land, and in that way it has operated as a hardship, but we have always thought that 4,800 acres was enough oil land. Senator Long. Now, what is the reason given for the provision against assignment? Mr. Riddle. I suppose that it is to keep one company from secur- ing a greater number of acres. There is nothing to hinder one cor- poration from buying stock in another corporation. Senator Long. You are possibly a little inaccurate there. There may be nothing in the regulations, ^lut the condition is in the lease that he shall not be interested either directly or indirectly in more than 4,800 acres. Mr. Riddle. I believe that it is held that one corporation shall not own stock in another corporation, and neither shall an individual stockholder of one own stock in others when the acreage of the two corporations will be more than 4,800 acres. Senator Long. I think that is the main reason for all this restric- tion, tff prohibit the holding in excess of 4,800 acres, and to be sure that is not avoided by assignment of leases. Mr. Riddle. That is probably proper, but what we insist on is that a man of moderate means may have a part of 4,800 acres, and that he will not be required to have this money on deposit and give bond and then have his lease nonassignable, and have no recourse to the courts to protect his rights. Senator Teller. When was that bill passed that requires the Sec- retary to approve leases, the original leases? Mr. Riddle. In 1902. Senator Long. Has there been no legislation affecting that matter since that? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 169 Mr. Riddle. 1 think not. Senator Teller. There is no law prohibiting the assignment, or anything else; all regulations ? Mr. Riddle. All regulations. Senator Long. And you think there shoula be fewer regulations and more legislation? Mr. Reddle. Yes, sir; that's it, and then we will go right along to splendid development. Then we will do like they are doing in Texas, in Ohio, and Indiana. Senator Teller. Where do you get this coal from? You spoke of coal a bit ago. Mr. Riddle. We have mines at Timber Hill. The coal is near the surface and is slope-mined, and it is hauled in from there principally in wagons. Senator Teller. Comes mostly from private claims ? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Is this coal field extensive ? Mr. Riddle. We think it is. Senator Long. Practically undeveloped ? Mr. Riddle. Practically undeveloped. People wanted to take leases — why, I have had clients, many of them, who had leases on this coal land, and when these rules came they just threw them in the waste- basket. Senator Long. On the average, after you make a lease and start it on its way to the Indian agent, how long until you get it approved ? Mr. Riddle. It varies greatly. Some grow gray-whiskered, Sen- ator; some get out pretty promptly. It depends a great deal upon the vigorous manner in which the attorney attending to the matter hurries it up. Senator Teller. Isn't this really settled by the agent? Mr. Riddle. They pass through his hands. Senator Teller. And he makes his report ? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; favorable or otherwise. Senator Teller. His recommendation is usually accepted ? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; when the regulations are complied with. A man in his financial statement must show that he is able to carry out his lease, and must have a bond, and the lease and papers must be made out with the accuracy of a pension voucher. Wnen this is done he will recommend its approval if it is correct in other respects. Senator Teller. Did I understand you to s£y that before the lease would be considered by the Indian agent at Muskogee, or any other authority, it must be shown by certificate cf a bank and the affidavit of the man that he has five Ihor sand dollars in clear cash in that bank, and that he hasn't borrowed iL. Mr. George Wivell. For each lease — I am speaking from an oil- man's standpoint; that's all. Senator Long. I understood you to say, in addition to that five thousand dollars that he has deposited in bank, where a man was unable to show he was worth more than five thousand dollars, that the lease would be disapproved ? Mr. Riddle. The man I spoke of only showed he was worth $15,000 and his lease was disapproved on that ground. He had not made the bank deposit. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 12 170 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. Your contention is that the effect is a man of mod- erate means can not operate one of these leases under these rules ? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; Senator Long, that is it exactly. The Chairman. Your further contention is that these restrictions reduce the amount of the revenue that the Indian gets ? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir. Where there is one man now desiring to buy the lease, if you will take off these restrictions there will be ten men wanting it, and we could know the extent of our oil field; we don't know its limits now. The extension of the field stopped when they stopped drilling wells. I might say further — to show you the atti- tude of the Secretary — Mr. LaHay, an attorney of Claremore, Ind. T., has just called my attention to the fact that an Indian citizen who has an allotment can't drill it for oil. The Secretary holds that an Indian citizen who has an allotment and has a patent for it can't operate that lease for oil and gas. The Chairman. For his own property? Mr. Riddle. Yes, sir; his own property. He can't drill it and sell the oil, and where that has been undertaken he has sent out the Indian inspector and closed the well, and where a drilling company was drilling for the citizen he said to them "If you go on against my will I will never approve an oil lease to you in the Cherokee Nation." Senator Teller. What was his theory? Mr. Riddle. I don't know. Senator Long. That was where he has made a contract with a drilling company ? Mr. Riddle. The case I have in mind is the Ross case at Bartles- ville. Mr. WiVELL. Excuse me for interrupting. I am an oil operator, and have been here for three or four years and I want to say a few things. Mr. Riddle has presented this matter very fully and very forcibly, only there are one or two clauses that he forgot to mention. The Chairman. Just wait until we get off of this particular matter. I suppose, as Senator Long suggests, that that is where one of these outside companies which is holding 4,800 acres was drilling for this landowner for a proportionate part of the production ? Mr. Riddle. I can't give you the particulars; I don't know the working arrangements. Senator Long. Will you not ascertain these facts and present them either at Tulsa or Bartlesville ? Mr. Riddle. I will endeavor to do so. (Copies of leases, rules, regulations, etc., appear later.) Senator Teller. But he says that the man owning the land can't drill it himself. Mr. Cyrus S. Avery (of Vinita, Ind. T.). That is exactly the case. I have land under lease right now which was owned and allotted to my brother-in-law, who is a Cherokee Indian and here in the room. He had land adjoining Bartlesville, also 6 miles north in the Dewey field. He desired to go on that land, drill it, and produce this oil himself, and financially was in a position to do that. He made investigation of it, and the Prairie Oil and Gas Company informed him they were for- bidden to take the oil by Department order, and that he could not drill or produce that oil only under approved lease or upon having his restrictions removed. Senator Long. That is, that he could not sell it to the oil company? FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. 171 Mr. Avery. There isn't any metnod by which he can produce it himself. If this Cherokee citizen, who is just as competent to manage his affairs as you or I, had undertaken to go on that land and drill it the Indian agent would send out and close that land up. There is not a single case in the Cherokee Nation where any man who owns land, as an individual, has ever been allowed to drill the land. He might go into a company and drill it, but the Secretary holds that he, as an mdividual, hasn't got the right to take oil from it in his own right. Senator Long. With or without patents ? Mr. Avery. With or without. We have very few patents here. Senator Long. Well, suppose a citizen took an allotment, and that allotment was invalid, and you were extracting a portion of the oil Mr. Avery. These attempts to drill were not made until the expi- ration of the nine months' contest period provided for in the Curtis bill and certificate of allotment to that land issued, which is prima facie ownership. Senator Long. You say the Prairie Oil and Gas Company will not buy the oil from the man. Mr. Avery. No, sir; they have instructions not to. Senator Teller. From whom did they get these instructions. Mr. Avery. When we sell oil to the company we have to furnish an abstract of title, and if the title is not satisfactory or if there is any doubt as to the title to the oil they make us furnish a bond pro- viding that in case anything comes up we will pay back the money Senator Teller. And the company itself will not take your oil? Mr. Avery. They have refused to take oil where the land is not leased in regular form or the restrictions have been removed and the land sold. Now that I have gone this far, I will say that a citi- zen of mixed blood has a right to get his restrictions removed; he can come to me then and get a farm loan on that- land, but if he undertakes to get the oil out of it the Secretary says he can't do it, although he can pass full title. Senator Teller. And that is after the restrictions are removed? Mr. Avery. Yes, sir. He still says unless you transfer that land it is still under his jurisdiction, so we transfer the land, and the party to whom it is transferred makes the lease and then transfers it back. That is the way we have of beating the devil round the bush. Senator Long. And the Secretary of the Interior as well The Chairman. Which is far more satisfactory. Senator Teller. I don't believe it is necessary to go into this matter any further. The Secretary is not authorized to do that sort of thing; it is simply an excess of authority on his part. I do not think we ought to waste much time on it. , The Chairman. I think the matter has been discussed sufficiently. Mr. Seymour Eiddle. There is a matter of considerable interest to many of the citizens here to which the attention of the committee has been called; that is the conditions of the intermarried whites, and it is especially interesting now on account of the recent ruling of the court and the Department. The Chairman. Is anybody present prepared to present that matter or make any suggestions about it ? This was not announced last night; you have opportunity now to present it. 172 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. John E. Campbell. I am one of the intermarried whites. There is no disposition on our part to present that matter to-day. Mr. Seymour Riddle. Mr. Duncan is ready to take up the re- moval of restrictions at any time. Mr. Campbell. I would like to say I know a case in point where application was made by a citizen by blood of the Cherokee Nation to be allowed to put a well or wells down on his or her land, and the Secretary was communicated with and he positively forbid it. That case, the one I have in mind especially, is my daughter. She wanted to have her land developed herself, and the matter was placed before the Secretary of the Interior and he would not allow it. The Chairman. Did he assign any reason? Mr. Campbell. No, sir. Senator Teller. Are you a Cherokee ? Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I am an intermarried Cherokee. I have lived in this country thirty-five years. The following documents were filed: Regulations governing leasing of lands in the Greek and Cherokee nations for oil and gas mining purposes. REGULATIONS. Amendments of May 22. 1906. The regulations of March 20, 1905, governing the leasing of lands in the Creek and Cherokee nations for oil and gas mining purposes, as subsequently amended, are hereby further amended as follows: Oil and gas leases executed after June 15, 1906, shall be on Form A, this day pre- scribed. Lessees whose leases have been submitted to the United States Indian agent, Union Agency, Ind. Tt, but which have not been approved, and others whose leases have been approved, but bonds covering which have not been approved, and lessees who hereafter submit leases for approval, shall furnish an application (Form B), under oath, and a certificate (Form C) of an officer of some bank; such forms, and Form A, to be furnished applicants by said agent. The application shall be considered a part of the lease. No lease, or any interest therein, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or the use thereof directly or indirectly, shall be sublet, assigned, or transferred without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior first obtained, and if at any time the Secretary of the Interior is satisfied that the provisions of any lease, or that any of the regulations heretofore or that may hereafter be prescribed, have been violated he shall have author- ity, after ten days from notice to the parties, to cancel and annul such lease, without resorting to the courts and without any further proceedings, and the lessor shall be entitled to immediate possession of the land. Lessees whose leases have h eretof ore been approved and those whose leases may here- after be approved shall have the privilege of delaying operations for a period not exceeding five years from the date of this amendment, except where bonds are approved subsequent to the date hereof, in which event the period shall run from the date of the approval of the bond, by paying to the United States Indian agent, Union Agency, for the use and benefit of the respective lessors, in addition to the required annual advanced royalty, the sum of |1 per acre per annum for each leased tract remaining undeveloped. The Secretary of the Interior reserves the right to require any lessee to immediately develop a leased tract, should he determine that the interests of the lessor demand suen action. C. F. LabraBbe, Acting Commissions: Department op the Interior, Washington, D. C. Approved May 22, 1906. E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ■ 173 AMENDMENTS APPROVED SUBSEQUENT TO MARCH 20, 1905. Amendment of April 22, 1905. Hereafter the papers accompanying leases made with a corporation and a guar- dian shall be: (1) Sworn application upon form provided by Department. (2) Statement from Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes verifying allotment. (3) Affidavit of some representative of oil company showing no operations and payment of bonus. (4) Certified copy of articles of incorporation. (5) If a foreign corporation, certificate of clerk of Indian Territory court of appeals showing compliance with Indian Territory corporation law. (6) Evidence in the form of a single affidavit of the secretary of the company, or by the president, showing authority for the ofi&cers to execute the lease, bond, and other papers. (7) Financial statement made by an officer of the company showing the amount of capital stock issued and actually paid in and money available for mining operations; that the lease is taken in good faith and not for speculation and resale. Also statement showing |5,000 set aside for developing the particular lease and where the sum is deposited, together with certificate from such depository of the fact of such deposit, but not as to the intentions of the depositor. (8) Certified copy of appointment of guardian. (9) Certified copy of order of court authorizing guardian to enter into lease, and confirmatory order. (10) Affidavit of guardian showing his relationship to, and age of the minor, and whether any bonus paid, and the amount thereof, if any paid or to be paid directly or indirectly to said guardian. No plat will be required with oil and gas leases,' but with leases covering other min- erals there shall be furnished a map on a sufficiently large scale to show the part or parts of the allotment which are supposed to be underlaid by such minerals. Where the lessee is an individual the following papers will suffice: (1) Sworn application upon the form provided by the Department. (2) Statement from the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes verifying allotment. (3) Affidavit of lessee or his representative showing no operations and the payment of bonus. (4) Financial statement, with necessary statement from bank and other evidence required to accompany same. But where the lessor is a minor the following additional papers should be furnished: (5) Certified copy of appointment of guardian. (6) Certified copy of order of court authorizing guardian to enter into lease, and confirmatory order. (7) Affidavit of guardian showing his relationship to, and age of, minor, and whether any bonus paid, and the amount thereof, if any paid or to be paid, directly or indirectly, to said guardian. Amendment of May 23, 1905. Every lessee shall securely cap or plug each oil or gas well upon the land leased within three days after the same is abandoned or not used, and every lessee failing to securely cap or plug his oil or gas well, as above required, shall pay the United States Indian agent for the Union Agency, for the use of the lessor, the sum of $10 per day for each well during the time said well or wells remain not capped or plugged, and for any failure on the part of the lessee to comply with any rule or regulation or any obligation in his lease, the Secretary of the Interior may revoke his approval of any such lease, after due notice to the lessee. This regulation shall be applicable to leases heretofore made as well as those hereafter entered into. Amendment of June 8, 1905. In order that the Department may have definite information before it concerning the lessees in oil and gas leases covering lands in the Cherokee and Creek nations, it is required that corporation lessees furnish affidavits covering the following points: (1) State the total number of shares of the capital stock actually issued and specifically the amount of cash paid into the treasury on each share sold, or if paid in property, state kind, quantity, and value of the same paid per share. (2) Of the stock sold, how much per share remains unpaid and subject to assessment? (3) How_ mucn cash has the company in its treasury and elsewhere, and from what sources was it received? 174 I'lVE CrVlLIZBD TEIBES. Certificates by officers of the banks should be furnished showing the amount deposited therein to the credit and subject to the check of the company. (4) What property, exclusive of cash, is owned by the company, and its value? (5) What is the total indebtedness of the company, and specifically the nature of its obligations? (6) State what experience the officers of the company or others connected with or employed by it have had in the production of petroleum and gas, or in any other business. Affidavits should also be furnished by individual lessees showing their financial responsibility, the amount of cash on hand available for mining operations, and their experience in the oil and gas business or other business. They should also submit affidavits by bank officers showing the amounts deposited to their credit. The required information shall be furnished within fifteen days from the date of the letter of the Indian agent at Union Agency requesting it. These amendments shall be applicable to all leases heretofore approved, as well as to those that may hereafter be approved. Amendment op December 27, 1905. Lessees shall not be allowed to drill oil or gas wells within one hundred and fifty feet of the division line between the lands covered by their leases and adjoining lands, whether the latter lands are leased or unleased, allotted or unallotted. Porm A. — Cherokee. LEASE. [Transferable only with consent of the Secretary of the Interior.] OIL AND GAS MINING LEASE UPON LAND SELECTED FOE ALLOTMENT, CHEROKEE NATION, INDIAN TERRITORY. (Sec. 72, act of July 1, 1902, 32 Stat., 716, 726.) This indenture of lease, made and entered into, in quadruplicate, on this — — day of , A. D. 190-, by and between , of part — of the first part, lessor-, and of part — of the second part, lessee-, under and in pursuance of the provisions of section 72 of the act of Congress approved July 1, 1902, and the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior thereunder. Witnesseth, that the part — of the first part, for and in consideration of the royalties, covenants, stipulations, and conditions hereinafter contained, and hereby agreed to be paid, observed, and performed by the part — of the second part, heirs, successors, and assigns, do — hereby demise, grant, and let unto the part — of the second part, heirs, successors, and assigns, for the term of years from the date hereof, all of the oil deposits and natural gas in or under the following-described tract of land, lying and being within the Cherokee Indian Nation and within the Indian Territory, to wit: The of section — , township — , range — , of the Indian meridian, and contain- ing acres, more or less, with the right to prospect for, extract, pipe, store, refine, and remove such oil and natural gas, and to occupy and use so much only of the sur- face of said land as may be reasonably necessary to carry on the work of prospecting for, extracting, piping, storing, refining, and removing such oil and natural gas, includ- ing also the right to obtain from wells or other sources on said land, by means of pipe lines or otherwise, a sufficient supply of water to carry on said operations, and including still further the right to use such oil and natural gas as fuel so far as it is necessary to the prosecution of said operations. In consideration of which the part — of the second part hereby agree — and bind ^ , heirs, successors, and assigns, to pay or cause to be paid to the United States Indian agent, Union Agency, Indian Territory, for the lessor-, as royalty, the sum of ten per cent of the gross proceeds, on the leased premises, of all crude oil ex- tracted from the said land, such payment to be made at the time of sale or disposition of the oil; and the lessee- shall pay, in yearly payments, at the end of each year, one hundred and fifty dollars royalty on each gas-producing well which shall use. The lessor- shall have the free use of gas for lighting and warming his residence on the premises. It is further agreed that a failure on the part of the lessee- to use a gas- producing well, where the same can not be reasonably utilized at the rate so prescribed, shall not work a forfeiture of this lease so far as the same relates to mining oil, but if the lessee- desire- to retain gas-producing privileges shall pay a royalty of fifty dollars per annum, in advance, on each gas-producing well not utilized, the first payment to become due and to be made within thirty days from the date of the dis- covery of gas. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 175 And the part— of the second part further agree- and bind , heirs, successors, and assigns to pay or cause to be paid to the said agent, for lessor-, as advanced annual royalty on this lease, the sums of money as follows, to wit: Fifteen cents per acre per annum, in advance, for the first and second years; thirty cents per acre per annum, in advance, for the third and fourth years, and seventy-five cents per acre per annum, in advance, for the fifth and each succeeding year thereafter of the term for which this lease is to run; it being understood and agreed that said sums of money so paid shall be a credit on the stipulated royalties; and further, that should the part — of the second part neglect or refuse to pay such advanced annual royalty for the period of sixty days after the same becomes due and payable, the Secretary of the Interior, after ten days' notice to the parties, may declare this lease null and void, and all royalties paid in advance shall become the money and property of the lessor-. The part — of the second part further covenant- and agree- to exercise diligence in the sinking of wells for oil and natural gas on the lands covered by this lease, and to drill at least one well thereon within twelve months from the date of the approval of the bond by the Secretary of the Interior, and should the part— of the second part fail, neglect, or refuse to drill at least one well within the time stated, this lease may, in the discretion of the Secretary, be declared null and void, after ten days' notice to the parties; provided that the lessee- shall have the privilege of delaying operations for a period not exceeding five years from the date of the approval of the bond to be furnished in connection herewith, by paying to the United States Indian agent, Union Agency, Indian Territory, for the use and benefit of the lessor-, in addition to the required annual advanced royalty, the sum of one dollar per acre per annum for each leased tract remaining undeveloped, but the lessee- may be required to immediately develop the tracts leased, should the Secretary of the Interior determine that the interests of the lessor- demand such p,ction. The part — of the second part further agree- to carry on operations in a workman- like manner to the fullest possible extent, unavoidable casualties excepted; to commit no waste on the sa'd land, and to suffer no waste to be committed upon the portion in occupancy or use; to take good care of the same, and to promptly surrender and return the premises upon the termination of this lease to the part — of the first part or to whomsoever shall be lawfully entitled thereto, and not to remove therefrom any buildings or permanent improvements erected thereon during the said term by the said part — of the second part, but said buildings and improvements shall remain a part of said land and become the property of the owner of the land as a part of the consideration for this lease, in addition to the other considerations herein specified, excepting the tools, boilers, boiler houses, pipe lines, pumping and drilling outfits, tanks, engines, and machinery, and the casing of all dry or exhausted wells shall remain the property of the said part — of the second part, and may be removed at any time before the expiration of sixty days from the termination of the lease; that will not permit any nuisance to be maintained on the premises under control, nor allow any intoxicating liquors to be sold or given away for any purposes on such premises; that will not use such premises for any other purposes than those authorized in this lease, and that before abandoning any well will securely plug the same so as to effectually shut oft all water above the oil-bearing horizon. And the said part — of the second part further covenant- and agree- that will keep an accurate account of all oil-mining operations, showing the sales, prices, dates, purchasers, and the whole amount of oil mined or removed; and all sums due as royalty shall be a lien on all implements, tools, movable machinery, and all other personal chattels used in said prospecting and mining operations, and upon all of the unsold oil obtained from the land herein leased, as security for the payment of said royalty. And it is mutually understood and agreed that this indenture of lease shall in all respects be subject to the rules and regulations heretofore or that may hereafter be lawfully prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior relative to oil and gas leases in the Cherokee Nation, and that this lease, or any interest therein, shall not, bv working or drilling contract or otherwise, or the use thereof, directly or indirectly, be sublet, assigned, or transferred without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior first ob- tained, and that should or sublessees, heirs, executors, administrators, successors, or assigns violate any of the covenants, stipulations, or provisions of this lease, or any of the regulations, or fail for the period of sixty days to pay the stipulated royalties provided for herein, then the Secretary of the Interior, after ten days from notice to the parties hereto, shall have the right to avoid this indenture of lease and cancel the same, when all the rights, franchises, and privileges of the lessee-, sublessees, heirs, executors, administrators, successors, or assigns hereunder, shall cease and end without resorting to the courts and without further proceedings, and the lessor- shall be entitled to immediate possession of the leased land and the per- manent improvements located thereon. 176 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. If the lessee- make- reasonable and bona fide effort to find and produce oil in paying quantity, as herein required of , and such effort is unsuccessful, may at any time thereafter, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, surrender and wliolly terminate this lease upon the full payment and performance of all then accrued and payable obligations hereunder: Provided, however, That approval of such surrender by the Secretary will be required only during the time his approval of the alienation of the land is required by law. It is further expressly agreed that this lease is made with full knowledge of the fact that under the regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior governing the leasing of lands in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, lessees are prohibited from being directly or indirectly interested in leases, in their own names or in the names of other persons, or as owners or holders of stock in corporations, or as members of associa^ tions, covering an aggregate of more than 4,800 acres of land in the Cherokee and Creek nations, that the said prohibition is made a part and condition of this lease, and that the Secretary of the Interior reserves the right to cancel leases at any time during the period for which they are to run after notice as herein mentioned, when he is satisfied that the terms of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter prescribed have been violated in any particular, and further agree — not to transfer, assign, or sublet, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or allow the use of the land leased, or any oil or gas in or under it, without first obtaining the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, and that any violation of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, respecting oil and gas leases in the Cherokee Nation, shall render this lease subject to cancellation, after ten days from receipt by of notice, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, whose declaration of cancellation shall be effective without resorting to the court and without further pro- ceedings, and that the lessor- shall then be entitled to immediate possession of the land. If, at any time, the Secretary of the Interior, after due notice to the persons or parties interested, determines that any person, partnership, or corporation has, by means of stock ownership or otherwise, directly or indirectly, obtained and holds interest in leases of oil and gas properties in said Territory, said, leases covering, in the aggregate, an area of more than 4,800 acres, and further finds that the property herein leased is a part of said aggregate area, then the Secretary of the Interior may cancel this lease in the same manner as provided for in the case of any violation of the terms of said lease. It is further agreed and understood that the approval of this lease shall be of no force or effect, unless the part — of the second part furnish — , within sixty days from the date of approval of the application filed in connection herewith, a bond to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the Interior, in accordance with the regulations of March 20, 1905, prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, which shall be deposited and remain on file in the Indian Office during the life of this lease. In witness whereof, the said parties have hereunto subscribed their names and affixed their seals on the day and year first above mentioned. Attest: SEAL." Two witnesses to execution by lessor: P.O. SEAL. SEAL. P.O., Two witnesses to execution by lessee: P. 0. P.O., [Indorsement:] Department of the Interior, Washington, D. C. Oil and gas mining lease, Cherokee Nation, Ind. T. to of , sec. , tp. , range , in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory. Dated , 190-. Expires , 19— Department of the Interior, U. S. Indian Service, Union Agency, Muskogee, Ind.T., , 190-. The within lease is forwarded to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, with recommendation that it be . See my report of even date. U. S. Indian agent. Department of the Interior, Ofiice of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. 0., , 190-. Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of the Interior, with recommendation that it be . , Commissioner". Department of the Interior, Washington, D. C, , 190—. -7 Secretary of the Interior. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 177 Form B. — Cherokee. APPLICATION FOB OIL AND GAS MINING LEASE. To the Secretary of the Interior: , of ■ ■ — , desiring to avail the act of July 1, 1902 (32 Stat., 716), hereby make- application to have approved of the provisions of section 72 of the accompanying lease for the purpose of mining oil and gas, embracing, in the acres of land situated in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, and agree- that this application shall be considered a part of the lease. do solemnly swear that the lease presented herewith, between and , is taken in good faith in interest and for exclusive benefit and not for speculation or transfer, or as agent for, or in the interest or for the benefit of, any other person, corporation, or association, and that no other person, corporation, or association has any interest, present or prospective, directly or indi- rectly, therein, and that there is no understanding or agreement, expressed or implied, by which the land leased, or any interest in or under the lease, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, is to be used, sublet, assigned, or transferred, without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior first obtained, to any person, corporation, or association, but that it is taken for the purpose of operation and development under direction, supervision, and control. That this application is made with full knowledge of the fact that under the regu- lations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior governing the leasing of lands in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, lessees are prohibited from being directly or indirectly interested in leases, in their own names or in the names of other persons, or as owners or holders of stock in corporations, or as members of associations, cover- ing an aggregate of more than 4,800 acres of land in the Cherokee and Creek nations, and that the Secretary of the Interior reserves the right to cancel leases at any time during the period for which they are to run, after notice as herein mentioned, when he is satisfied that the terms of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter prescribed have been violated in any particular, and further agree- not to transfer, assign, or sublet, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or allow the use of the land leased, or any oil or gas in or under it, without first obtaining the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, and that any violation of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior respect- ing oil and gas leases in the Cherokee Nation, shall render this lease subject to can- 'cellation, after ten days from receipt by of notice, in the discretion of the Sec- retary of the Interior, whose declaration of cancellation shall be effective without resorting to the court and without further proceedings, and that the lessor shall then be entitled to immediate possession of the land. The name of the lessor and the date of the execution of each lease heretofore applied for by , including the lease covered by this application, are as follows: Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease Lease executed - executed - executed - executed - executed - executed - executed ■ executed - executed - executed ■ executed - executed - executed - executed - executed - executed - executed - , 190-, , 190-, ,190-, , 190-, , 190-, , 190-, , 190-, , 190-, , 190-, , 190-, 190-, 190-, 190-, 190-, 190-, 190-, 189-, by- by- by- by. by- by- by- by- by- by- by- by- by- by- by- by- by- -, for ■ -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for ■ -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for • -, for - -, for - -, for - -, for - - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. ■ acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. - acres. 178 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Lease executed , 190-, by , for acres. Lease executed , 190-, by , for acres. Lease executed , 190-, by , for acres. Witnesses: (P. 0. address) (P. O. address) ■ Subscribed in my presence and sworn to before me this day of , 190- Depaetment op the Interior, Washington, D. C, , 190- Approved: Secretary. [Indorsement.] DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, D. C. Application for oil and gas mining lease (Cherokee Nation) Dated , 190- affidavit of witnesses. United States of America, Indian Territory, Northern Judicial District, ss : , of , and , of , witnesses to the attached lease executed by to , being by me first duly sworn, upon their oaths state, each for himself: That said oil and gas mining lease was in their presence read and fully explained to the lessor, and that understood the nature, contents, and effects thereof, and approved of the same. Subscribed in my presence and sworn to before me this day of , 190- Notary Puilic. My commission expires . certificate of officer taking acknowledgment. United States of America, Indian Territory, Northern Judicial District, ss: I, , a notary public within and for the northern district of the Indian Territory, do hereby certify that , of , and , of , witnesses to the attached oil and gas mining lease, executed by to , signed the same in my presence at the request of lessor; that they are personally well known to me; that I know of my own knowledge that they are reputable persons and entitled to full faith and credit. Witness my hand and seal as such notary public on this day of , 190—. Notary Public. My commission expires . United States of America, Indian Territory, ^ Northern Judicial District, ss: Be it remembered that on this day came before me, the undersigned, a notary public within and for the northern judicial district of the Indian Territory aforesaid, duly commissioned and acting as such, , to me personally well known as the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 179 party lessor in the within and foregoing indenture of oil and gas mining lease, and stated that had executed the same for the considerations and purposes therein mentioned and set forth, and I do hereby so certify. Witness my hand and seal as such notary public on this day of , 190 — . Notary Public. My commission expires — ^ — . Know all men by these presents. That , of , as principal-, and - of , as sure-, are held and firmly bound unto the TJnited States of America in the sum of dollars, lawful money of the United States, for the pay- ment of which, well and truly to be made, we bind ourselves, and each of us, our heirs, successors, executors, and administrators, jointly and severally, firmly by these presents. Sealed with our seals and dated day of - The condition of this obligation is such that whereas the above bounden - as principal-, entered into certain indenture of lease, dated with • for the lease of a tract of land described as follows: and located in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, for purposes for the period of years from the date thereof. Now, if the above bounden shall faithfully carry out and observe all the obligations assumed in said indenture of lease by and shall observe all the laws of the United States and regulations made, or which shall be made thereunder, for the government of trade and intercourse with Indian tribes, and all rules and regula- tions that have been, or may be, prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, under section 72 of the act approved July 1, 1902, relative to leases in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, then this obligation shall be null and void; otherwise to remain in full force and effect. Signed and sealed in the presence of — Witnesses: a as to • — — . [seal.] as to ■ — — . [seal.] APPIDAVIT OF SURETY. (To be used only when individual sureties are offered.) P. 0. p. 0. p. 0. P.O. I, — ,• one of the sureties on the prefixed bond of - depose and say that I am worth in unincumbered property, over and above my debts, liabilities, and exemptions under the laws of the of , dollars and upwards, as follows: Real estate, valued at dollars, situate in , and consisting of 6 : and Personal estate, valued at dollars, located in , and contisting ofc (Signature) ■ (Post-office address) , Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of . [seal.] • "Two witnesses to all signatures. 6 Here state wliether city property, improved or unimproved, farm or unimproved land. Prop- erty must be described by street numbers, lot numbers, or section, township, and range numbers. cHere describe ttie nature of the property, whetlier notes, bonds, stocks, merchandise, etc. State also, as nearly as practicable, the present market valu/>- 180 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. I, , do hereby certify that , who administered the above oath, was, at the time of doing so, a in and for said , duly qualified to act as such and to administer oaths in such cases, and that I believe his signature as above written is genuine. In testimony whereof I have hereunto set my hand and affixed the seal of this day of , one thousand nine hundred and . [Indorsement:] Department of the Interior, Washington, D. C. Bond of ■ , lessee of , in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, for ■ purposes, dated , 190-. Department of the Interior, Washington, D. 0., , 190-. Approved: , Secretary of the Interior. Form C. CBRTIFICATB OF BANK OFFICEE. I, , of the Bank, certify that I am personally acquainted with - of , and that I have known him for years, during which time he has been engaged in the following occupations and business enterprises: - That I believe the oil and gas lease in favor of covering certain lands in the Nation, with respect to which this certificate is made, is taken for, and to be operated by, and not for or in the interest of any other person, corporation, or association. In my opinion the said is fully competent and has the financial ability to comply with the requirements of such oil and gas leases. I certify that there is now on deposit in the bank to the credit of — the sum of $ , in open account, subject to check, no part of which was secured through a loan from this bank for the sole purpose of making a financial showing in sup- port of an application for approval of oil and gas leases in the Nation, Indian Territory. Dated at , this — day of , 1906. STATEMENT OF MB. D. W. C. DTTSTCAN, A CHEROKEE INDIAN. Senator Long. State your post-oflBce address. Mr. Duncan. My post-office address is Vioita, Okla. Senator Long. Are you a Cherokee? Mr. Duncan. I am a, Cherokee. Senator Long. By blood ? Mr. Duncan. By blood; mixed blood. I am exceedingly glad, gentlemen, for the courtesy of your proffered attention for a short time. I will say, however, that the presentation of the resolutions of the Commercial Club comes in simultaneously with my appearance before you, and I suppose that it was the intention of my friends, the members of the • Commercial Club, that you should consider the mat- ter contemplated along with nay remarks. I would like to have myself distinctly understood before I take hold of the subject that I am now contemplating lest I be construed some- thing to my detriment, and that of my people, those whom I rep- resent. I am no commercial man. I don't know that I ever made a dollar in my life in any way except by hard labor. I am not a member of the Commercial Club, and when I say that, gentlemen, I do not mean to say I am unfriendly to the ends and aims contemplated by that organization; I simply mean to say that I am not a member of it and I do not directly represent it to-day. I will proceed, however, and FIVE OrVILIZBD TRIBES. 181 read the resolution that I have in my hands, and as I advance in my remarks I will endeavor to present the matter fully. Be It resolved, by the Commercial Club of the city of Vinita, Indian Territory, in meeting assembled, on the 10th day of November, 1906, that it is the sense of the Com- mercial Club: That the best interests of the residents of the Cherokee Nation, both citizens and non- citizens, require the immediate removal of the restrictions upon the alienation of lands, both surplus and homestead, of allottees who are not of the full blood or who are not minors; That the full bloods should be permitted to appear before a court of record sitting nearest where their lands are located and show to said court that they are competent to manage their own affairs and to handle their own lands, and that thereupon, if said court finds them competent and qualified, it should have the power to remove their restrictions; That the restrictions upon the lands of minors should be removed upon application to a court of record sitting nearest where said lands are located by a guardian duly appointed according to law when said guardian shows that the removal of said restric- tions is for the best interests of and for the purpose of educating, maintaining, and sup- porting said wards. In connection with those resolutions, gentlemen, I have here a page of typewritten argument, which, though not my own production, I feel it my duty to present along with the club resolutions. It is as follows : The history of the Cherokee Nation for the past twenty-one years demonstrates that the course pursued by the Government as to restrictions upon the alienation of lands of Chereokee citizens has hindered the free use of the entire allotment, has depre- ciated the value of the lands, and has worked a great hardship and injustice upon the allottees. By refusing entirely to permit-the allottees to alienate their homesteads for a period of twenty-one years, and permitting the alienation of the surplus, the Gov- ernment has very materially depreciated the value of both the surplus and the allot- ment. In the Cherokee Nation the, average allotment is 80 acres. Of this, 30 acres is reserved as a homested. By removmg the restrictions upon 50 acres only, the surplus sells for less than if the whole 80 acres could be sold. The 30 acres reserved for a home- stead, being cut off by itself, is undesirable to hold as a homestead on account of its small quantity, and when it is later put upon the market it will bring less price than if it were a part of the larger tract. This club believes that the interest of the Cherokee citizen is best conserved by the removal of the restrictions upon his entire allotment. This argument applies forcibly to the allotments of all Indians of less degree than full blood, and it applies with equal force to the allotments of all full bloods who have sufficient intelligence to manage their own affairs and transact their own business, and to the allotments of minors, when the alienation of their lands is necessary to procure funds with which to educate them for citizenship. This club respectfully suggests that a law should be enacted removing the restric- tions upon the alienation of the allotments of all Indians not of the full blood and not minors, and that provisions should be made whereby, under certain conditions, the restrictions on the allotments of full bloods and minors should also be removed. A law might be enacted providing that Indians of the full blood might appear before the nearest court of record for the purpose of making a showing as to their capability to manage their own affairs; that said court be given jurisdiction to determine whether or not the restrictions upon their lands should be removed, and that if it should decide that the restrictions should be removed said court should have the power to thereupon remove them. Said court should have power to hear and determine the matter of the removal of the restrictions upon the alienation of the lands of minor Cherokee citizens, upon applications duly made by the guardians of said minors, when said applications show that the removal of the restrictions are necessary in order that funds may be pro- cured with which to properly educate the wards and to maintain them while they are being educated. Many of the Cherokee citizens of the full blood are educated and intelligent persons and are as capable of managing their own affairs as are many of the white citizens of the other States. It is an injustice to such Cherokee citizens to place a cloud upon the title to their lands and to restrict them in their rights and ownership therein. This club believes that intelligence, rather than the degree of Indian blood, should be the deter- mining factoi^in removing restrictions upon Cherokee allotments, and that to refuse the ' removal of restrictions upon the lands of educated full-blood Indians, because of the accident of birth, wrongs them and benefits no one. 182 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Duncan. I am unable, gentlemen, to determine in my own mind the reason why these resolutions have come in before you simul- taneously with my presence. There is one thing that I understand very distinctly, and that is that the aim of the commercial club lies in the same direction with the end for which I am working, and I do not know any other reason why this commercial club should bring the resolution in at this time, unless it be that it simply wants to hitch its little sled on my own automobile and ride on a free ticket to the desired end along with me. The point I desire to make, gentlemen, is simply this: That I am not working as a speculator. I am friendly to that organization. That commercial club is deserving of praise, and I think its interests lie right along dhectly with the interests of the common Cherokee people, to which I am endeavoring to work at the present time. I am perfectly willing that anything that I can say or do in promotion of the interests of my people if it redounds any benefit to the com- mercial people of this country, I am perfectly willing to lend that kind of aid to my commercial brethren. I feel, gentlemen, I am ia a unique position to-day, and I am admonished by the peculiar character of this occasion that it is a little proper, somewhat proper, that I should give a little explanation of the reason why I am before you ia this attitude. The fact is, I am an Indian, a Cherokee Indian, born of Cherokee parents something over three-fourths of a century ago; brought up under Cherokee influence, imbibed the elements of character from the spirit of Cherokee civilization, forged and shaped out on principles of mental and moral nature accordingly, under the rules of my own Indian civilization. In a word, gentlemen, at this time there is a trace of white blood coursing in my veins; I am influential in spirit and I am as much of a full-blood Indian Cherokee as any of those noble characters to whom you listened through an interpreter during yesterday's hearing. Senator Long. How old are you, did you say ? Mr. Duncan. Seventy-six years. Senator Long. Where were you educated ? Mr. Duncan. Mostly in the woods around here; I got my education in the thicket. Senator Long. Did you ever go to college ? Mr. Duncan. With this exception. Senator, I went to college — I prepared myself alone by ray own efforts on the farm and went and entered Darmouth CoUege and graduated with a rate of scholarship that gives me standing among the "Phi Betas" over the United States. Let me say this. Senator, I must give just a short biography — what I wanted to say in my former remarks is this : If there is any- thing of merit in me, anything worthy of praise in my character, any mental ability, the mental and moral consideration due to me is due to my mental efforts and struggles for information and knowledge in the thicket of my own Cherokee Nation. In my advantage of college life I obtained some of those requirements that are useful to me, but of minor importance. What I am aiming at is this: I have on, from my very youth, devoted my energy, all my influence, for what I thought to be good and just, and I must confess to-day, and I do frankly, that I have never been in accord with the administration of the Federal Govern- FIVE CrVILIZBD TRIBES. 183 ment in disposing of and handling the interests of my people. That is not to say that I have not been in accord in the ultimate end which the Federal Government hopes to be of benefit to my people. I have not been opposed to the great movement of the great wheels of ^Cherokee progress. I have not been one of the holdbacks, as we Che^okees are often accused of being. I have been in favor of progress, but oppose only the manner, the modus operandi, by which this ultimate end is to be aimed at. Senator Long. Have you been opposed to the allotment policy ? Mr. Duncan. No, sir, Senator. I have exerted all the powers of my reason both with Members of Congress at Washiagton and with the Federal officers ia this country and with my full-blood friends and countrymen of mixed blood against the means, understand me, Senators, against the manner, by which this allotment has to be brought about. Senator Long. You are in favor of the policy ? Mr. Duncan. I am. I am in favor of statehood, and there is no man in the new State of Oklahoma who is prouder of the dignity and future prospect of our young State than I am myself, but my conten- tion is to-day as to the manner in which it was brought about. Senator Long. What criticism have you to make of the manner? Mr. Duncan. I am in accord with Congress; I am in accord with you gentlemen in every ultimate end; it is only to the method by which they proceed that I object. In order to make myself distinctly understood, gentlemen, it will be necessary to take you and carry you on a very brief glance over a page of Cherokee history, if you will give me the time. A few decades ago, not more than forty years ago, the Cherokee Indian was the owner of a magnificient estate, mcluding not less than 14,000,000 of the best acres that can be found now upon the American continent. The value of that land, upon a favorable market, was enough to give every man, woman, and child of the Cherokee people an ample competency for their life as long as they should live and a like provision to their posterity for a number of generations. But, to-day, what is the condition? All that I have. Senators, to-day, although I was part owner in that magnificent estate; all I own to-day is measured by the pitiful sum of $325. The great question in the minds of my people to-day — the great question that is agitating the minds of The Chaibman. If I may interrupt you a moment — that $325 you referred to is the classified value of your allotment? Mr. Duncan. The value of my allotment. The Chairman. It is intended as a classified value and doesn't nearly equal the true value. Mr. Duncan. The great question now, not only before the Cherokee people, not only in Congress of the United States, not only in the columns of the press throughout the United States from the Lakes to the Gulf and from ocean to ocean, the great question is simply this one thing: What will the Federal Government be willing, in what manner will the Federal Government be willing, to let me or my fellow , Indian citizens enjoy that little estate. Or, in other words, shall these restrictions be maintained and perpetuated upon this little morsel of land that the Government has set apart for me, or will the Federal Government be willing to submit this little amount of 184 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. inheritance to my control — submit it to my discretion as a free cit- izen of the United States'? Those are the questions and that is a subject to which I desire to direct the attention of the committee to-day. ..*' Between the years of 1886 down to the present day, 1906^ th^e iies a chapter of history, of the Cherokee history, replete with/ the most thrUling lesson of instruction ia the philosophy of human iiHairs as well as the finest of human nature. / But it will not do for me to attempt to lead you thstiugh that extensive field of discussion. In the first place, we were required to surrender over to an alien race, the negroes, thoiasands of our acres. You, Senators, are perfectly familiar witti^ the argument made by the Government as to why that was done. It is not worth while for me to say anything about that. At the same time we were required to surrender all that estate of ours from the 96th meridian, extendiag over the 100th meridian, east longitude, embracing a tract of which Senator Long. The Cherokee Outlet. Mr Duncan. The Cherokee Outlet. At the same time our 8,000 acres that lies at the southwest comer of Kansas — we had to surrender that. At the same time we had to surrender what is known as the Kansas Strip, a tract about 4 miles wide and embraces something over 300,000 acres. At the same time we were required to grant without one cent's compensation the right of way of two railroads 200 feet wide, extending throughout the length and breadth, east and west, north and south, as I said, without one cent's compensation. At the same time we were required to accept as our fellow-citizens thousands of the African race, sharing with them in our lands, in our moneys, in our civil and political privileges, and at the same time granting a priv- ilege of the Government to locate in our midst a United States court in contravention of our granted rights of the Government, said court being located at the present time down here in the brick build- ing, and what for? Mr. Dennis Cooley, of Ohio, chairman of the commission sent down to the Cherokee Nation to transact this busi- ness with us, told us this: "In order to restore your lost favor of the Federal Government you will have to pay all this as a penalty." Oh, we had to do that. After those years of conflict we were com-, pelled to do it under the treaty of 1866. Well, that is enough of that history. We paid the penalty and were then restored to the favor of, as my Indian fellow-citizeijs call him, "our Great Father at Washington." He smiled upon us again, and we had hoped that those smiles would have been continued throughout the length of the period of time which was described to us a few years ago by President Jackson, "so long as grass grows and water flows," and we went to work and grass grew and water flowed and we lived in peace until Mr. Curtis, up here in Kansas, introduced a bill which was pushed through the forms of legislation at Washing- ton, obliterating our tribal nation, abrogating our laws, extinguishmg our treaties, rescinding our patents signed by the President of the United States, taking possession of our lands, placing the disposing power over it in the hands of the United States Government, which is nothing more nor less than fee-simple title. I might say that it prac- tically transferred the title of our vast estate down here in the hands of the Government, and the Government assumed control over it and fIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 185 goes to disposing of it. In the first place, setting apart what is called reserves, thousands of acres for town sites, many acres for educa- tional purposes, for churches and colleges, and I might go on and enu- merate until every possible pretext for reserving the lands had been provided for and no more imaginable claims remaining to be gratified, and then, after the whole segregation was declared to be unafiotable, we Indians, we Cherokees, we original owners of this land in fee simple under a solemn patent, come in as a last thing to be cared for, the very last thing; and then the Dawes Commission assigned us what? A piece of land valued at $325. Is that all? By no means, by no means. For instance, to illus- trate, $325 on my farm would give me 65 acres; I was awarded as my allotment just 60 acres. What becomes of that $5.60? Why not let me have the value of that money in land so that my little pitiful tract of 60 acres might be better qualified to meet the wants of myself and family ? For some unaccountable reason that neither I nor my Chero- kee countrymen ever understood, the Dawes Commission promul- gated a rule, as we maintain, in conflict with the spirit of the Cherokee agreement, the last law the allotment was effected under; we main- tain that it was an incorrect construction which prescribed that all allotments which go to Cherokees must be of a certain number of 10-acre lots, and any piece of land that would be less than 10 acres would be regarded as a fraction and taken from the allotment. In other words, my allotment was cut down to 60 acres. Now, what I want to do is this — that is the history of the whole thing in brief; I have endeavored to state it in a cursory manner, of the dealings of the Federal Government with us Cherokees until we have been brought down to this little narrow allotment on the face of the earth. Now, what does it signify to the Cherokees ? Gentlemen, yesterday you heard some of those full bloods say like this — I think it was Joe Frog speaking to you through an interpreter; he threw out this idea; it is an idea which has been in my mind for years, ever since the Dawes Commission entered this Territory: "We can't afford to sell any of our land because we have not got enough. It is too small. If we sell any we will not have enough to maintain our families." As he was endeavoring to convey that fact another one of my fellow-countrymen, Mr. Glory, said : ' ' Our people are in a bad fix." Those were his words, spoken in bad Indian language. Those words meant a great deal to people like us poor Indians. Our allot- ments are too small, and on the whole we are in a bad fix. Let me demonstrate my idea. Take my own case. I am a Cherokee, as I informed you at the out- set of my remarks, not without a purpose, and I am going to base a part of my arguments upon my own experiences. Under the old regime, when we were enjoying our vast estate in common here, we all had enough and more than enough to fill up the cup of our enjoyment, for every Cherokee that wanted a home or wanted a farm could go and open it up and enjoy it under the guarantees given us by that incom- E arable old President, Jackson, years ago. While that was the case I ad developed a farm of 300 acres up north of town, not more than 3 miles from where you gentlemen are sitting. I had expended all the labor of a lifetime and worked hard, lookmg forward to the future, when these gray hairs should come upon my head ; looking forward to the time when I should become disqualified by the weight of years to S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 13 186 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. labor and wanted to rest, and I had accumulated a competency suf- ficient to maintain me in my old age; but when the Dawes Commis- sion sent its survey party around and cut me off up there all but 60 acres, I went to work on that, and to-day the allotment process that has been brought upon us by the Federal Government has written destruction of property and capital more terrible than that which was visited upon the isle of Galveston years ago by the anger of the ocean. Senators, just let me present to you a picture; I know this is a little digression, but let me present it. Suppose the Federal Government should send a survey company into the midst of some of your central counties of Kansas or Colorado or Connecticut and run off the sur- face of the earth into sections, and quarter sections and quarter quarter sections and set apart to each one of the inhabitants of that county 60 acres, rescinding and annulling all title to every inch of the earth's surface which was not included in that 60 acres, would the State of Connecticut submit to it? Would Colorado submit to it? Would Kansas brook such an outrage ? No ! It would be ruin, im- measurable ruin — devastation. There is not an American citizen in any one of those States would submit to it, if it cost him every drop of his heart's blood. That, my Senators, permit me — I am honest, candid, and fraternal in my feelings — but let me ask a question: Who is it that hastened on this terrible destruction upon these Cherokee people? Pardon me, it was the Federal Government. It is a fact; and, old as I am, I am not capable of indulging in euphuisms. Before this allotment scheme was put m effect m the Cherokee Nation we were a prosperous people. We had farms. Every Indian in this nation that needed one and felt that he needed one had it. Orchards and gardens — everything that promoted the comforts of private life was ours, even as you — probably not so extensively — so far as we went, even as you in the States. The result has been — which I now want to illustrate, as I set out, by .my own personal experience. Under our old Cherokee regime I spent the early days of my life on the farm up here of 300 acres, and arranged to be comfortable in my old age; but the allotment scheme came along and struck me during the crop season, while my corn was ripening in full ear. I was looking forward to the crop of corn hopefully for some comforts, to be derived from it during the months of the winter. When I was assigned to that 60 acres, and I could take no more under the inexorable Taw of allot- ment enforced upon us Cherokees, I had to relinquish every inch of my premises outside of that httle 60 acres. What is the result ? There is a great scramble of persons to find land — the office was located here in our town — to file upon. Some of the friends in here, especially a white intermarried citizen, goes up and files upon a part of my farm — on a part of my growing crop, upon the crop upon which I had spent my labor and my money, and upon which I had based my hopes. I remonstrated with him. I said to him, ' ' Sir, you don't want to treat me that way. We are neighbors and friends. You can't afford to take my property that way. Of course the Dawes Commission and the Curtis law will give you the land, although I have subdued it, and I have fenced it, and cultivated it. But for God's sake, my friend, don't take my crop." "Well," says he, " I had to surrender my crop to a fellow down here. He allotted on me, and I don't know why I should be any more lenient on you than others are on me. If joo- FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 187 don't let that corn alone, I -will go to the court and get an order." That was new to me, but when I came to examine the Curtis law, and investigated the orders and rules established by the Dawes Com- mission, I just folded my hands and said, ' ' I give it up." Away went my crop, and if the same rule had been established in your counties in your State you would have lost your dwelling house ; you would have lost your improvements. Now, that is what has been done to these Cherokees. Now I will tell you Senators, I don't intend, I have no desire, to go and join the army of my noble full-blood countrymen in their untiring war against the Government in behalf of abstract right against the behests of organized authority and power. I trust I nave too much sense for that. I have been advanced sufficiently far under the tuition of the English law of civilization to know it won't do for me to join them in that conflict. But they are going to fight you. Senators, as long as breath remains in their bodies. They are going to fight you to the death. And you can't drive a Cherokee, you can't drive a full- blood Indian anywhere back upon the Ten Commandments of Moses. If you make a promise to, an Indian, he expects you to fulfill it, unless you get his consent to release you. That consent has never been obtained from the Cherokees. All I want now is simply this : To consider the result. As President Cleveland told our delegation once most thrillingly in the city of Washington: "I am considering the aim — not regarding the policy of this nation." He said, too, gentlemen, "The Indian problem of the Territory is not a theory, but a condition to deal with." That is my position now to-day. I am not to take issue with the Curtis law or any other provision, but I am now to deal with conditions. What a condition ! I have 60 acres of land left me ; the balance is all gone. I am an old man, not able to follow the plow as I used to when a boy. What am I going to do with it ? For the last few years, since I have had my allotment, I have gone out there on that farm day after day. I have used the ax, the hoe, the spade, the plow, hour for hour, until fatigue would throw me exhausted upon the ground. Next day I repeated the operation, and let me tell you. Senators, I have exerted all my ability, all industry, all my intelligence, if I have any, my will, my ambition, the love of my wife — all these agencies I have emplOTed to make my living out of that 60 acres, and, God be my judge, I have not been able to do it. I am not able to do it. I can't do it. I have not been able to clear expenses. It will take every ear of the bounteous crop on that 60 acres — for this year is a pretty good crop year — it will take every bushel of it to satisfy the debts that I have incurred to eke out a living during the meager years just passed. And I am here to-day, a poor man upon the verge of starvation — my muscular energy gone, nope gone. I have nothing to charge my calamity to but the unwise legislation of Con- gress in reference to my Cherokee people. When I personate myself in this case — pardon me. Senators — I am speaking for the thousands of my fellow-citizens that are inhabiting those flmt hills over there. This being the case, my own case, it doesn't begin to compare with the hardship with which those full bloods who spoke before you here yesterday have to contend. Compare — ^just take a practical view of the case — 60 acres; suppose I put every acre of that 60 acres throughout into corn, and that is 188 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. our staple production here, we have got to rely upon it — disregarding the space that I am to occupy for my dwelling, garden, hogpens, sheep-pens, and things of that kind; suppose I put every acre of that tract into corn and raise a bountiful crop, twenty bushels to the acre. Let's see: That would be 1,200 bushels, which at 30 cents a bushel would be $360. I have been industrious, worked hard, been cheer- ful; I have whistled along on my way to the farm and back, told pleasant stories to my wife, and endeavored to be as chippery as I could. Now, I have my clothes to buy, the apparel of my wife and children, my grocery bill to settle, my taxes to pay, my repairs on my premises, if I have any — all to come out of that $360. You can figure that out yourself; I can't do it very well now in my mind. But I say this: There isn't a man in the State of Kansas that can get through the year with anything like reasonable comfort and respect- ability with $360 and pay all of his expenses. If he did get through with the skin of his teeth at the end of the year, he would merely be able to live and breathe, and nothing else. But will that condition satisfy a proud-spirited American citizen? Would one of you gentle- men be satisfied with that condition of things ? Suppose, gentlemen, an allotment scheme be put in force in your country and you be put in the same predicament; under this inex- orable state of unchangeable affairs that you would never be able to have another acre but that, and if j'^ou can't live on it you can die on it. No! There isn't a citizen of the noble State of Kansas that would submit to it. Did you notice the trend of the minds of the full bloods that spoke to you yesterday? You didn't get all of it; I got it all. Didn't you see their great anguish was that thej were impoverished; that they were in a shape that they couldn't get through? What had actuated them to come down here and make those statements? They are in a bad fix; they are not satisfied. And I think that the Government of the United States ought to take these things into consideration and not to fearfully underestimate the mood of these Indian people, supposing they would be satisfied with anything less than you would be satisfied with. I am in that fix. Senators; you will not forget now that when I use the word "I" I mean the whole Cherokee people. I am in that fix. What am I to do? I have a piece of property that doesn't support me, and is not worth a cent to me, under the same inexorable, cruel provisions of the Curtis law that swept away our treaties, our system of nationality, our every existence, and wrested out of our possession our vast territory. The same provisions of that Curtis law that ought to have been satisfied with these achievements didn't stop there. The law goes on, and that 60 acres of land, it says, shall not be worth one cent to me; although the Curtis law has given me 60 acres as the only inheritance I have in God's world, even that shall not be worth anything. Let me explain. If you had a horse that jou couldn't use, and some competent Eower ordained that that horse should have no value in any mar- et on the face of the earth, and at the same time you should be com- pelled to keep that horse as long as he should live, or at least twenty- five years, at your expense; now, in the name of common sense, what would you do with that horse? He is not worth anything; his services are not worth anything tome; I can't ride him; I can't use FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 189 him. There is no man in the world that will give me a cent for him; the law won't allow me to sell him. I would get rid of that horse somehow, sure. The point I am making here is applicable to every species of prop- erty, whether real or personal. Prevent the property from being purchasable in open market and you destroy it. Upon the same frinciple, my allotment up here is absolutely destroyed. What am going to do with it ? What can any Indian do with his allotment under similar circumstances? Let me allude to myself again. It is not egotism. I will tell you what I am going to do with rny allotment. I sat down one day and wrote out my application for the removal of my restrictions. I went to work and pushed it through all the Federal machinery up to the Secretary of the Interior and back again, and a few days ago I was notified my restrictions were raised. Now for the next step. What am I going to do with that wortljless piece of property ? I am going to hold it — how long I don't know — tut I am going to wait untu the white population becomes a little more multitudinous, when the price of real estate will rise. When I can get anything like an ade- quate value for my farm I am going to sell it. It is worthless to me. The Government of the United States knows that these allotments of the Indians are not sufScient. Congress recognizes the fact forci- bly, by implication, that these allotments are not sufficient. Why, one American citizen goes out On the western plain in North Dakota to make a home. What is the amount of land allotted to him? Isn't it 160 acres? Why, it is the general concensus all over the country that nothing less would be sufficient to support any family; and there are many years when you think, too, that 160 acres is not sufficient. Since this country has been split up, the Cherokee gov- ernment abolished, and the allotments attained, immigration has come in from the surrounding States, consisting of persons of dif- ferent kinds. I have tested them, and know what I am talking about, personally. Persons in pursuit of a sufficient quantity of land upon which to rear their families and take care of themselves. I have interrogated them time and again. I have said to them, "Look here, my friend, where are you going?" "To Indian Territory." "What for?" "To get a piece of land." "Did you have any land in Missouri or Kansas?" 'Yes, sir; I had some up there, but it was too small and wasn't sufficient." " How much was it ? " "Eighty or one hundred acres," as the case may be; "I have leased out my land up there to parties, and thought I would come down here and get a larger piece of ground." Well, now, that is the state of the case. I think, gentlemen, when you investigate the case fully you will find that these people have been put off with a piece of land that is absolutely inadequate for their needs. I have detained you already too long. I will give you what I think ought to be done in this case and without extending an argument any further. I would just say simply this : Just do away with the restric- tions scheme in all its application — homestead and all. That is my view of the case. I could go on and give you reasons why I express that opinion that it ought to be done. I could give you more than I have already advanced, because in the first place the land is insuf- ficient; these landowners can't raise any money_ on their land. If they mortgage it the mortgagee will take it without redemption, 190 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. because they can never realize the money to pay the mortgage. If I should take a mortgage of $100 on my farm I could never make it on the farm. If they should execute a mortgage to raise money on the farm to improve it, they would never raise the mortgage. The fact is they are bound down to it, and in view of the hopeless condition and under the circiunstances I would advise that these restrictions be removed, and then let the Congress of the United States locate some kind of a tribunal here, we will say at Vinita, with this kind of power: With power to review all trades that may be made with full-blood Cherokees or any other kind in reference to their farms, and determine whether it has been a fair trade — whether it would be profitable or not — in order to protect the improvident from imposition. Gentlemen, I feel very grateful to you for your careful attention. I have wearied you, no doubt. I hope that if it is within the power of Congress that you will do something to relieve us. The fact of the matter is that we have been thrust by misfortune and mistaken ideas of legislation into a vortex of penury so nearly hopeless that I have very little hopes of ever having any relief whatever. When I was in Washington one day talking to Senator Pettigrew, who was chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate, as I had seen this present result from the beginning, I was arguing with him the pro- priety of the modification of the rigiditj^ of some of those provisions. He listened very patiently and said : "Look here my friend, Congress never takes a back step." That's true, and for that reason Congress has gone so far with the utter inability to take a back step that I, for one Cherokee Indian, stand here without hope of any relief except individual energy and the advance of the individual here himself. At 12 o'clock noon the committee took a recess till 2 p. m., when it reassembled. AFTERNOON SESSION. Vinita. Ind. T., Tuesday, Novemher 14, 1906. STATEMENT OF MB. J. W. OBB. The Chairman. State your residence and occupation. J Mr. Orr. I reside in Vinita, and am a banker. Senator Long. Connected with what bank? Mr. Orr. The International Banking and Trust Company. I desire to call your attention to the fact that the Indian people who get their restrictions removed through the tedious machinery of the Secretary of the Interior do not all sell their lands, and you may be interested to know that a little more than three out of five place mortgages on these lands, and in most cases the money is used to improve their estates by building houses or additions to houses, thus making themselves and families more comfortable and enhancing the value of all their lands. Most all of them have an earnest and burn- ing desire to take better care of their families, and to make their wives and children more comfortable; and with their land tied up they have no credit to borrow money to do these things with. You must understand the average Indian citizen has allotted to him in the Cherokee Nation an average of 80 acres of land, and 90 per cent of the allotments are unimproved and most of it raw prairie land. With the allottees poor, as most of them are, and no tangible property to give them credit, they are unable to make improvements and get FIVE CIVILIZBD TRIBES. 191 any benefits such as they ought to have from the revenue of their allotment. With no fences, no houses, no credit the Indians are powerless to support their children as they would like. Many of them do not realize more than 25 cents per acre from their lands, and many more realize nothing from it, because it is lying out on the com- mon or in some large pasture, and they have ro money to improve it or even secure it separate and apart from others ; hence they are no better off than when the country was a waste prairie. I submit to you the question honestly and earnestly: If such [)eople would not be better off if they could sell or mortgage their and and improve a part or all of it? No law can be passed but what would work a hardship on individual cases here and there; most all laws of every kind does that, but a law for the benefit of the masses and which works the least harm to the fewest people ought to commend itself to your consideration; and the removal of the restrictions from all but full-blood people would certainlj^ be a great boom to this country and to at least 95 per cent of the people directly affected. I desire to attach a list of loans on land made by the International Banking and Trust Company during the past year, and this shows the size of the loans and length of time, etc. Pet Jackson Ed Daugherty L. T. Brown David A. MoGliee Louisa Suagee R. Lee Martin John and Lucy Bean J. B. Belew David McGhee Wm. A. Day JohnH. Dick Joe David J. T. Ragan R. Lee Martin Walter T. Torbett... Nancy A. Jones EffleC. Bowers W. R. Badgett J. M. Daniels Alice Jones-Gibson. . Nannie E. Wilson. . . Wm. P. Drew W. B. DePue Sarah E. Clayton R. Lee Martin R. Lee Martin Johnson Landrum . . . JohnH. West Lee Tucker B. F. Cleveland ElzeB. Neville R. Lee Martin Henry 0. Tittle Rosella Bean Dora Gabbert Laura E. Hendricks . R. L. Johnson Perry Johnson Jos. P. Fritz Fannie Marks Acres. Amount , of loan. 50 $450. 00 40 150. 00 40 400. 00 60 600.00 40 350.00 40 400.00 30 200. 00 10 76.00 60 1,301.25 60 600. 00 40 250. 00 60 494 00 20 125. 00 40 400.00 40 400.00 40 400.00 20 550. 00 40 300.00 50 500.00 40 325. 00 20 100. 00 70 225. 00 50 600. 00 40 300. 00 80 800.00 40 325. 00 20 200. 00 40 300.00 20 100. 00 90 300.00 30 1,000.00 40 240.00 20 115. 00 30 200. 00 40 300.00 40 350.00 20 150.00 40 176. 00 40 300.00 40 376.00 Ragan & Foster Ed N. Washboume. Mary Z. Shelton C. C. Rase F. E. Heckethom... Johnson Landrum.. William H. Drew. . . Henry C. Tittle Thos. J. Inlow Thos. J. IiUow J. Watt Adair Henrietta Nichols . . Ruby Drew John M. Daniels Chas. J. Cronjnger.. R. Lee Martin Eliza McHenry B. F. Cleveland Susan Johnson W. H. Morrison John E. Butler Martha Ward William Smith Ida Bean Lucy M. Thompson. Mary Howie Luke Sixkiller Nora N. Day Dot F. Trott SamT. Hunt Wm. Green W. M. Charlesworth Wm. Cheamberlain . Wm. H. Doherty... Dan B. Davis Leander Lunday Geo. A. Melton Jamima Drew Martha Gilstrap Mary Caywood Amount of loan. $125. 00 300. 00 220. 00 500.00 600.00 100. 00 67.60 100.00 320.00 320.00 350.00 250.00 400.00 700.00 215.00 600.00 90.00 600.00 260. 00 236.00 260. 00 100. 00 240 00 600.00 400. 00 180.00 350.00 358.00 300.00 300. 00 660. 00 500. 00 250. 00 1,000.00 164.50 500. 00 500.00 500.00 165.00 300.00 Senator Long. What rate of interest do you charge ? Mr. Oer. Eight per cent. The notes of which I have given you a list draw eight per cent. Senator Long. Interest is payable when? 192 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Oer. Semiannually. Every six months. They aggregate something like $50,000 or $60,000. We do not make more than one- half the loans that are made here in Vinita. Senator Long. Are they made by some bank? Mr. Orr. No, sir. We are the only bank that lends money on real estate here in Vinita. They are made by some broker in real estate. Senator Long. How much interest do they charge ? Mr. Orr. Eight per cent. Senator Long. All over the Territory ? Mr. Orr. Eight per cent, so far as I know, all over the Territory, is the rate paid. I should like you to look the list over at yom- leisure and note the number of acres, the amount borrowed, etc. Senator Teller. When you make loans, what do you value the common farm land at? Mr. Orr. Fifteen to twenty dollars an acre. Senator Teller. How much do you lend on that? Mr. Orr. Eight to ten dollars an acre. Senator Teller. About one-half its value? Mr. Orr. About that; sometimes more. Sometimes a little over the half. The Chairman. For how long a time is the loan? Mr. Orr. One year. Senator Teller. No longer than that ? Mr. Orr. No, because, for one reason, most of these people are new and we do not know how they will meet their interest payments. The Chairman. How long has your bank been loaning? Mr. Orr. About fifteen months. The Chairman. What has been your experience with regard to those loans for a year; were they paid or renewed? Mr. Orr. Most of them were renewed. Some were paid off. The Chairman. How was it about the interest payments; were they promptly made? Mr. Orr. Very promptly. I have loaned money for twenty years and have never had more prompt payments. Senator Teller. Do you charge a commission on making a loan? Mr. Orr. Yes; there is a commission charged, generally of 2 per cent. Some of the loans are made through agents and they get a commission. Senator Teller. When renewed the charges come to 10 per cent a year? Mr. Orr. We renew them without the 2 per cent. Senator Teller. That is, a man who renews his loan gets it without the payment of that 2 per cent? Mr. Orr. Yes. Senator Long. What do they usually use the money for ? Mr. Orr. Just the same as if they were up in the States. The demand for money here generally is for improvements. They want to improve their nouses or barns or fences; very usually to add to their barns. Some of them, of course, may have some debts. It is not always easy to tell just what they want the money for or use it for, but as a rule it is for improvements. Senator Teller. Is land improving in value particularly about here? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 193 Mr. Orr. Yes, sir; it would increase a little faster if we had a little more competition in the buying of the lands. As thp restrictions are being taken off, it is such a slow process, and the land comes in such small quantities, that those who buy lands here manage to make the market for it — that is, those who come in here and would be willing to pay better prices, like people from the North, can not get these lands at first hands. In other words, owing to the manner in which the restrictions are taken off the land just filters out into the community here, and it naturally goes cheaper than if the whole world could come in and compete. A batch of restrictions is taken off this month, and a batch next month, and a batch the month after, and the price is established in that way. If a man desired to buy a farm for a home, and the owner could see that man, as he can in Kansas and elsewhere, the price would be enhanced. Senator Teller. How far are you here from the Kansas line ? Mr. Orr. About 28 miles. Senator Teller. Do you know anything about the price of land in Kansas? Mr. Orr. Yes. Senator Teller. How do jonr prices compare? Mr. Orr. Land that would sell for about twenty dollars an acre in the Indian Territory would sell for from forty to fifty doUars an acre in Kansas; the land, without improvements. Senator Teller. Is it any better land than this ? Mr. Orr. There is not a bit of difference. The line is only an imaginary line, and perhaps the land gets a little better as we get farther away from the line; I think it is a little better. The fact is that the manner in which the restrictions are taken away now is cal- culated to make a very poor market for the sale of land. Senator Teller. You know, I suppose, that the argument against removing restrictions is that the Indian wiU sell the land improv- idently and foolishly, and will waste his money? Mr. Orr. As to that, I will say that when they come into statehood they will give their boys their land. Some of them will no doubt get away with their land, or some of it, foolishly, but I do not believe that the percentage of people of mixed blood in this country who will show improvidence in the disposition of land or in any other respects is any greater than the percentage of improvident people in Kansas, Missouri, or Illinois. If there is any truth in the argument that the Indian when parting with land is to be eaten up, then the one who is saved from being eaten up this year would be eaten up next year anyway. Senator Teller. There ought to be either a perpetual restriction, you think, or they ought to be removed ? Mr. Orr. Sure. It is a question of approaching the matter fairly and judicially and giving these people a chance to administer their estate. Men come constantly to me at my counter and tell me of their difficulties in trying to make a living. Some of them are men who control seven or eight hundred acres of land, but are obliged to live in houses such as are used by the average man in which to keep his horses. These people live three or four miles from a school. They are intelligent men, and have families, and do not know what way to turn to get money. They come to me to see whether they can not 194 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. give me a bond or something on wMch to raise money to bring them relief. I am speaking now of the mixed bloods generally. We do not come in contact with the full bloods; they live away from here. Senator Long. How far from here ? Mr. Oee. About twenty miles. Senator Long. Very few of them live in this part of the country? Mr. Oke. Very few. These people around here understand what they want to do with their land. They are people that can take care of their land. If all could not, some of them would. Senator Tellee. You would not remove he restrictions from their homestead, would you? Mr. Oee. Yes; I would. What they want is to be put in possession of good credit. What would you have done when a young man if you had not had credit ? Take credit away from a farmer, and what can he do ? Nothing. Banks are afraid to lend him money. What these people want is credit. They have sons enough to take care of their allotments, and their lands, as a rule. But their lands are so fixed that they can not get credit on them. I do not believe all I hear about these lands not being sufficient to support people. I think that with any average 80 acres of land in this vicinity a man can make a good living from it if he will go out and work it; and so will his children — those that want to. Senator Long. He has 80 acres and his child 80 ? Mr. Oee. Some have 80 and soma only 60. Senator Tellee. When I began asking questions I did not intend to interrupt your argument. Mr. Oee. That is all right, Senator. I am glad to answer any questions. My position is that those people want credit more than anything else. Let them be responsible for their acts. They are willing to assume that responsibility. I am speaking of the mixed- blood Indians. The full-blood Indians, of course, bring up a different question. Senator Tellee. How long have you been here, Mr. Orr? Mr. Oee. About three and a half years. Senator Long. Where did you come from? Mr. Oee. From Illinois. Senator Beandegee. What do you think about the restrictions on the sale of the lands of the full-blood Indians ? Mr. Oee. Well, I do not think that the full-blood Indian should have his restrictions taken away; at least not in a wholesale way. Senator Long. You think that each individual case should be investigated ? Mr. Oee. Yes. It ought not, however, to be done by the Secretary of the Interior. It is easier to impose on a man in Washington than a man at your own door. A man ought to be allowed to go into the courts. There are plenty of full-blood Indians that are smarter than some of us who have no Indian blood in us at all. Senator Tellee. That is so. Mr. Oee. You must have come across some of them. Senator. They ought to be able to go into court and get their restrictions removed. They ought to be able to get their restrictions removed by the court so as to enable them to get credit. They have not got any more than they want, if they could only have credit. Senator Tellee. You may be right, but you can not pass an act FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 195 through Congress to-day or for some time that would accompHsh what you suggest. Mr. Ore. I presume that is so. Senator Long. This question has been twice defeated in the Senate within the last two years. Mr. Orr. I was asKed my opinion about the matter and I have given my opinion. You have a lot of people at Washington who know noth- ing about conditions here, and will not believe those who do know. Another thing which works a hardship and expense to the minors of this country is some of the departmental rulings of the Secretary of the Interior. For instance, on account of my official capacity with a trust company I act as guardian or curator for many Indian children. I give bond in the United States district court, approved by a good and conscientious judge. Money coming to me for my wards is arbi- trarily deposited in banks over the country and I can not draw it except by getting an order of court on the bank where it is deposited. The amounts are usually small, and an attorney's charges to prepare the court orders are out of proportion to the amount of money drawn; and in my case I get it done cheaper than where a person has only one or two cases, for I am able to make rates with an attorney, while thou- sands of others with single cases must pay from $10 to |25 to gel money due their wards, for which they have given bonds to the United States court to protect their trust. Senator Teller. Is that by Department order or by statute? Mr. Oer. By Department ruling. I submit to you a list of money recently deposited in a bank which I drew out on court order, showing cost of same, which is charged to the accounts of the various wards, who are poor and ought not to be compelled to contribute to the whimsical rulings of the Secretary of the Interior. Ward. Amount drawn. Fee. Watt Daugherty $160.96 4a 29 209.25 $5.00 Robin Daugherty 52.88 1 00 Watt WUte 1S6.53 46.96 Josiah Sam . 203. 49 5.00 23.14 3.00 Huckleberry Shell 196. 64 3.00 546. 26 525. 72 412.54 1,484.52 10.00 This is one drawing of funds and would be repeated every two months, except the judge, who fully understands the question, made the orde? perpetual as to all except the larger accounts. I desire to submit to you that this is unnecessary and works a hard- ship and expense on guardian and ward. I could give you many other cases of the same kind, but these are just last week, and refer to them as sample cases. I believe if the President and Congress knew 196 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. of the many red-tape rulings put in force by the Interior Department they would take prompt action to give the people relief. Mr. S. H. CoLsoN. Is that a ruling of the Department, that this money must be paid before the parties can transact business ?' Mr. Ore. The money is paid into the Indian agency, which is a department of the Office of the Secretary of the Interior. They, in turn, deposit it in some bank to the credit of the guardian. This is oil money usually. Senator Teller. Though credited to the guardian he can not draw it without a court order ? Mr. Orr. He can not get it without an order ; he can not get access to it. It is like the old legend of tolling the grist three times. The Indian agent puts it in the bank, and you may get a court order to get it out of that bank and into another bank. When you pay that out for the benefit of your client you have to get a court order to pay it out. Senator Teller. What you want is that the man who gives the bond should be held responsible for the money and should be able to get it? Mr. Oer. Yes. He is responsible, on his bond. STATEMENT OF CHABLES B. ROGERS. The Chairman. State your residence and occupation. Mr. KoGEES. I reside at Vinita and am a lawyer by profession. The Chaieman. You wish to make a statement to the committee? Mr. Rogers. I wish to present a letter which I received from Mr. R. L. Martin, a Cherokee citizen, who is, I think, almost a full blood if not entirely a full blood. He is a personal friend of mine. Some days ago I wrote to him asking him to come here and meet this committee and present his views on the subjects before the com- mittee for investigation, so far as they would interest him and his people. In reply he wrote me this letter, which I desire to file with the committee. The Chairman. If it is not a long letter you may read it. Mr. RoGEES. It is not a long letter. Mr. Rogers read the letter, as follows : Pensacola, Ind. T., November It, 1906. C. B. Rogers, Esq., Vinita, Ind. T. My Dear Sir: I am in receipt of your kind invitation to the meeting of the Senar torial committee at Vinita on the 13th and 14th instant. Sorry indeed that I can not attend the meeting. But I can assure the honorable gentlemen of the committee that I can say in behalf of every Cherokee in this neighborhood that they are very anxious that the restrictions be removed, whether they wish to sell or not, and are looking hopefully to the next Congress to relieve them of this one burden. By so doing we shall feel that Congress is willing to place us on an equal footing with other citizens of the United States and the great State of Oklahoma. So I hope the inves- tigation may prove to be beneficial along those lines. Again I thank you for your kind remembrance of me. Yours, very truly, R. L. Martin. Senator Long. Where does Mr. Martin live ? Mr. Rogers. At Pensacola. Senator Long. Where is that ? Mr. RoGEES. Sixteen or 18 mUes from here, southeast. I know Mr. Martin well, personally, and know him to be a very conscientious gentleman, who would not attempt to recommend to this committee FIVE CrVILIZBD TRIBES. 197 or to anyone else anything that would be detrimental to the Indian people. Senator Long. Do you consider him competent to take care of his own business ? Mr. E-OGEES. Oh, yes; very competent. As conapetent as any man, whether white, red, or any other color. STATEMENT OF CYRUS S. AVBBY. Senator Long. What is your business ? Mr. Avery. I am engaged in real estate, farm lands, and am general agent for a binding company. Senator Long. Where do you reside ? Mr. Avert. In Vinita. Senator Long. What matters did you wish to present to the committee ? Mr. Avery. I wanted especially to bring out the pouit that owing to the method of taking off the restrictions, the Indians are not get- ting from 50 to 75 per cent of the value of their lands. Niaety per cent of the land is sold to speculators. I have been in the real estate business two years and I have never sold a farm to a farmer. This Elat (producing a drawing) is a township plat and will show you ow the township is divided. In this plat the letter "H" stands for homestead. You will notice that each owner has his roU number. You will notice that each section is divided up. This is copied from the eighth annual report of the Dawes Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. These lines [indicating] represent the rough hilly land of the Cherokee Nation. A large per cent of the land you see in white here is 50-cent land. Senator Long. On this plat where is Vinita ? Mr. Avery. Right here [indicating]. This yellow land you see here is mostly four-dollar land. * Senator Long. Grand River is where, to the east ? Mr. Avery. Yes. In other words, when you cross Grand River you get into a prairie country. Senator Long. Where is Muskogee ? Mr. Avery. Right here [indicating] in the Creek Nation. The point is that some of the Cherokee Indians have their homestead and the allotment of their children over here [indicating], but the bulk of them have their allotment over here [indicating another point], 60 or 70 miles away. They are forbidden to lease this land for more than a year, and no good farmer would want to go on land for a year. I know of instances where parties wanted to get land free from restrictions, because it was within a few miles of an oil field, but the authorities refused to accede. I know of other cases where school- teachers wanted to get land from which restrictions were removed, but they could not get the land. The Indians could not, therefore, lease the land to the best advantage. Under the present rules and regulations for selling the land not only do the Indian owners get less than it is worth, but the land is going into the hands of speculators. So far as I am concerned, I do not propose to give for land more than it is worth, but I buy it because I can buy it at a bargain. I represent the Phenix Mutual Life Company in loaning money at 5, 7, and 8 per cent. 198 FIVE OIVILIZBD TRIBES. I will say that 90 per cent of the citizens around Vinita here who have had their restrictions removed have borrowed money instead of Belling their land. We lend from $5 to $7 an acre on it. The committee will notice, if they will study these plats, how important it is that a party who does not live anywhere near where his surplus is should be allowed to handle that surplus in such a way as may enable him to get something out of it. There is considerable land about there that full-blood Indians have been trying to get money on, but could not get it. Iknowthedierokeeswell; have known them for many years; they were my neighbors for years; and I know that the average full-blood Cherokee is capable of taking care of himself if allowed to do it. The majority of the Cherokees were never more destitute of money and credit than they are to-day. Senator Beandegee. How do you think is the right way to take care of them ? Mr. Avert. Submit them to a business proposition. Senator Brandegee. What do you mean by submitting them, as you say, to a "business proposition?" Mr. Avery. Give them the same privileges that the mixed bloods have to-day. STATEMENT OF JAMES HILDEBBAND, A PTTLL-BLOOD CHEROKEE INDIAN. The statement of Mr. Hildebrand was made through an interpreter, Mr. S. H. Colson, of Vinita, Ind. T. The Chairman (to the interpreter). What is the post-oJB&ce address of Mr. Hildebrand? The Interpreter. "Zenie, Ind. T." Senator Long. You are the interpreter? The Interpreter. Yes. Senator Long. What is your full name and address? The, Interpreter. S. H. Colson, Vinita, Ind. T. Senator Long. Is Mr. Hildebrand a full blood ? The Interpreter. To the best of his knowledge he is a full-blood Cherokee. The Chairman. Ask him to go on and make what statements he desires to make in regard to the matter of the restrictions. The Interpreter (translating). "A majority of the full-blood Cherokees of the Indian Territory are not in favor of the removal of the restrictions. As far as my knowledge extends throughout the Cherokee Nation such is the case. This is because the full bloods have not been educated, to the present time. The full bloods have been somewhat averse to the paying of taxes. Not being familiar with the laws of the United States, and entering into a new state of affairs, they are somewhat afraid of circumstances for the future. In the presence of this state of facts the Cherokees have here before this committee three or four delegates representing their interests. The Cherokees are not fully aware of the facts; and while not opposed to the rights of way that have been granted in the Cherokee Nation, they would ask this Committee some explanation on the subject. Ir it is possible to ascertain the number of full-blood Cherokees that have been removed from east of the Mississippi River, in the Cherokee Nation, it is the request of the Cherokees that that be done. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 199 My object being to present the sentiment of my people, I ask that the committee take into consideration my views. I ask this honorable committee if they will review these matters pertaining to the interests of the Cherokee people. I ask if it is proper and just that the United States of America and the Federal Government deprive our people of their estate ? It was promised by the Government of the United States of America that we should receive 160 acres of land, and I believe that that promise should be carried out. That is my understanding of the provision of the treaty made with our people east of the Mississippi — 160 acres per head. At present we find that things are changed, and that we are largely in a majority of the amount of land promised to our people accordmg to the treaty stipulation. Senator Long. Repeat tnat statement. The Inteeprbter. "We are largely in a majority of the lands promised to our people according to the treaty stipulation." Senator Long. I do not understand that. The Chairman. I understand what he said, but I do not understand what he means. The Interpreter. I could tell it to you differently, but I am going by what he says. I could interpret it otherwise. Senator Long. Give us your interpretation. Senator Teller. Tell us what he means. The Interpreter. "The United States of America promised us that we should have an inheritance in this country, and that the pro rata amount should be 160 acres per head." Senator Long. You said something about a "majority." The Interpreter. "The majority says 'No.' We ratified a treaty" — (the interpreter laughs, "Ha, ha, ha.") The Chairman. Proceed with the examination, and do not waste time. The Interpreter. "When we released and gave up our homes in Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee for this country, it was agreed that we should have a home, not exceeding 160 acres per head. We want you to understand distinctly that that is according to treaty stipu- lations." Senator Long. Is he complaining now that he has not got 160 acres? (After a pause.) He did not answer. The Chairman. What is the matter with him ? The Interpreter. He says I did not understand his interpretation. The Chairman. Is there any other gentleman in the house who can interpret ? The Interpreter. Mr. Ofeal says he would like to talk to this committee, and that he would like to go out and get an interpreter. The Chairman. Very well. Let him go at once and get him, and we will meanwhile pass on to something else. STATEMENT OF MR. S. H. COLSON, A CHEROKEE INDIAN. Mr. CoLsoN. I should like to make a few remarks. The Chairman. On what subject? Mr. CoLSON. On the subject of the removal of the restrictions. The Chairman. Proceed. Mr. CoLSON. I am a Sweetwater Cherokee by blood. It affords me great pleasure, honorable Senators, to meet you. I am speaking 200 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. for the half-breeds, the quadroons, the octoroons, and down to the thirty-second Cherokee Indians — for we have in our country people who are only a thirty-second part Cherokee Indian — who have to obtain their rights. It affords us great pleasure to have the opportunity to meet you face to face, something that an ordinary Cherokee heretofore never had the opportunity to do. You have had the Snakes, Crazy Snakes, you have had the Katoogas, and they have presented you with their claims. I speak now in behalf of these Cherokee people I have named. Senator Long. Do you consider yourself one of them? Mr. CoLSON. I am a three-quarter Cherokee. Was bom and raised among the full-blood Cherokees. All the education I ever had was by a fire light on a farm at my own home. I am a mechanic, gentlemen. You can look at my hands and see that I am capable of taking care of myself ia any community in any State of the Union. I am speaking to-day in the interest of the Cherokee people. We are divided. You have seen our ladies. You have seen our "squaw men" — our ladies, so commonly called "squaws" by the Congress of the United States — and our bucks. You have seen them all. The Chaieman. Please hasten along with regard to the question of the removal of the restrictions, because time is very pressing, and we wish to get at the pith of the matter as rapidly as possible. Mr. CoLSON. Yes, sir. We believe that a majority of the intelligent class of the Cherokee people are in favor of the removal of the restric- tions. They believe that there is an obstruction to their progress by having the thongs of restriction on their lands. When we enter state- hood we do not want these restrictions on us. We want to be free American citizens and we want the rights and franchises that any other citizen has ia the United States of America. We believe that our people — a portion of us — are competent to take care of our own interests, though there are a portion of our people as to whom it is necessary that the restrictions should be retained, as I believe they would squander anything they got. We are no exception to the rule. We have our spendthrifts and people who are trying to make away with their inheritance and their money. Senator Long. Have you filed your allotment ? Mr. CoLSON. Yes, sir. Senator Long. How many acres have you ? Mr. CoLSON. I have 320 acres. Senator Long. Have you ever had your restrictions removed ? Mr. CoLSON. No, sir; and I do not want them removed. Senator Long. Have you ever made application to have them removed ? Mr. CoLSON. No, sir; I do not want them removed at all. Senator Long. You do not want Congress to remove your restrictions ? Mr. CoLSON. No, sir; I do not care about Congress removing my restrictions at all, because I believe I am able and competent to take care of myself, and I believe that that is the case with a good many Cherokee Indians. I am a mechanic. If you look at my hands you wiU see that I earn my living by honest toil. Senator Long. What sort of mechanic are you? Mr. CoLsoN. I am a saddler by trade. Senator Long. Do you work at the trade all the time? FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 201 Mr. CoLSON. Yes, sir; constantly. I am engaged in the saddle business all the time. Senator Long. You are opposed to the removal of the restrictions ? Mr. CoLSON. No, sir; I am not. Senator Long. You want everybody's removed but your own ? Mr. CoLSON. Except the fuU bloods. Senator Long. Except the fuU bloods ? Mr. CoLSON. Except the full bloods; yes, sir. The fuU-blood Indians we know. I know, and every other man in this house knows, that we have incompetents. We have full bloods that are not com- petent to take care of their own interests, and, as Mr. Duncan has told you, I believe it would be a wise thing for a commission to be appomted in this town and other towns, so that a full-blood Indian could receive full compensation for his allotment or for such land as he wishes to sell. Petitions have been laid before this committee saying that the Cherokees wish that no restrictions be removed from their lands. But they say also this — that when the time comes, if it does, that our people beconie competent, and it is plain that they are competent and qualified to take care of themselves and their interests, a law should be enacted to provide for those people. I wish to say to you that our people — the full-blood Cherokee people — are somewhat divided. You have had before you here the Katoogas; you have had the Night Hawks The Chairman. I think we understand your position pretty fully in this matter, and we will not ask you to continue any further, as our time is pressing. We should be glad to hear fxirther from Mr. Hildebrand, but he has not yet been able to find an interpreter. STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN B. TTTBNEK.. The Chairman. Where do you live ? Mr. Turner. At Vinita. The Chairman. What is your occupation? Mr. Turner. I am an attorney at law; have been in the active practice of the law for the past twenty years. I never did anything else in my life to make a living by. I am a native Tennessean. I came to Fort Smith in 1889, and from Fort Smith I removed to Vinita in the spring of 1895. I have been practicing law in Indian Terri- tory ever since the United States courts were established in this country. I think I am reasonably familiar with the sentiment of the people of this part of the country and with their desires. Congress has seen fit in its wisdom to remove the restrictions from tne Cherokee freedmen, and thereby enabled them to sell their surplus lands without any permission of the Secretary of the Interior or anybody else. In other words, by act of Congress the United States has declared the Cherokee freedman thoroughly capable of attending to his own business. I think I can state to the committee that the sentiment of this community is that the Congress has made a very unwise and unjust discrimination against the Indians. They can not see why it is that the Cherokee Indian should have been discrim- inated against in that way. To say the least of it, our Cherokee full bloods are just as intelligent as our Cherokee freedmen. They are S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 14 202 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. just as capable of taking care of themselves and their affairs as are the Cherokee freedmen. To say that they are citizens of the United States, and at the same time say that they are incapable of taking care of their own business or managing their own affairs, and to dis- criminate against them in favor of the Cherokee freedmen is, in their opinion and in mine, very unjust. I am thoroughly persuaded in my own mind, being pretty well fahiiliar with the full-blood Cherokee people, that they are a very intelligent sort of people, as a rule. You will understand, gentlemen of the committee, that the Chero- kee people have their language reduced to an alphabet, and there is scarcely a full-blood Cherokee within the length and breadth of the Cherokee Nation, I am told and I believe, who can not read and write in his own language. I was just informed by a bank cashier on the streets here not over an hour ago that there is a larger percentage of our Cherokee people who can write a fine hand than you will find in any of the States. They write in their own language and wr'te well. They are a very proud people, and very justly so. They are known to be further advanced than any other tribe of Indians, and they feel very keenly the restrictions placed on them by the Congress of the United States in discriminatmg very unfavorably and unjustly, as they feel and as I feel, against them. A large part of our Cherokee full-blood people are fully capable of managing their own affairs. I believe that there should be exceptions to a rule which would permit them to alienate their" surplus lands. I believe that our full-blood people should be permitted to come into court, and, by petition and proper representation to the court here on the ground, their cases should be investigated. They should be open to judicial investi- gation and determination right here as to whether they should be permitted to sell or not. I believe that as to every man outside of our full bloods every restriction should be removed absolutely. Of course we have improv- ident people among both the full bloods and the mixed bloods, but where can we go and not find improvident people ? Where a man is declared a full American citizen at 21 he should be allowed all the rights and privileges of an American citizen, without any supervision. We are here to build up a State. We must have taxable property. There is not a Cherokee who shirks his duty as a citizen of the United States. To be sure they are a little afraid of taxation. They were not taxed here. Taxation is new to them. They have never been taxed outside of their municipality. I believe that the homestead should remain absolutely intact for all of them — full bloods and mixed bloods ; and I believe also that a lib- eral exemption law should be secured for all of them, under the consti- tution that is to be made, yet I believe that as to the full bloods a judi- cial determination should be made right here on the ground as to whether his restrictions should be removed. You gentlemen see our mixed bloods here. They bear favorable comparison with the people of the adjoining States. In conclusion I will merely repeat that an act of Congress should be passed removing all restrictions, save as to homesteads. I thank you, gentlemen. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 203 JAMES HIIiDEBBAND, RECALLED. John Corntassel, Interpreter. The Chairman (to John Corntassel, interpreter) . Ask Mr. Hilde- brand if he wants to strike out the testimony he gave this morning, through the other interpreter. I understand he was not satisfied with the other interpreter, and perhaps he will wish to strike out what was then placed on record as his statement. Ask him if he wishes to begin all over again. The Interpreter (John Corntassel, after speaking with Mr. Hilde- brand). He says, "Yes, sir." He says he would like to go over it again and he will try and do the best he can. The Chairman. What we wish to know is whether he wishes to begin his statement all over again. The Interpreter. Yes. He asks how long a time you will give him to speech. [Sic] The Chairman. Just as long as he needs to say what he wishes. We want it to be as short as he can make it, however; and tell him that there is not much use in talking about the old treaties. We should like to hear from him about the removal of the restrictions. Senator Teller. What should be done now. The Chairman. Yes; what he thinks should be done now. The Interpreter. He says that the people who come before you are mostly white citizens. There are just a few Cherokees by blood. You can see how we look, the full-blood Cherokees. He says that the Cherokees got by fair frade the lands they have now; they bought those lands. The Chairman. They got these lands in a fair trade with the United States ? Senator Teller. That is what he means. The Interpreter. He says a good many people cqme from North and East and South and West to claim our land and our money. The Cherokees thank you for coming here. They thank the Govern- ment and the Senate of the United States for giving us the oppor- tunity to meet you. There was one case we had lately in which our .people won; it was sued on by an adopted citizen, who claimed our land. Our citizens by blood were sued, and the case was tried before the Supreme Court. We won the case. We had a big expense on that account. That was to maintain our title to that land. We have lots of expense in our government. Some of our people that take the land came from Ala- bama and Tennessee awhile back. People come among us here and claim our land yet." The Chairman. John, tell him that what we wish to hear about is what should be done about the removal of restrictions. You under- stand what I say, do you not ? The Interpreter.- Yes. The Chairman. Well, tell him that what we ^wish more than any- thing else is to get his idea as to what should be done about the removal of restrictions. Nearly all the Cherokees have taken their allotments. What we wish to ascertain is what the Cherokees think about the removal of restrictions from their lands. Senator Teller. Shall we remove the restrictions or not? The Chairman. Yes, whether we shall remove them or not. 204 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Inteepeetee. He said he was trying to make a statement a while ago and he could hardly be misinterpreted in his statement. That was with the other interpreter. He was asked, he said, just one question about that — one statement about getting the land at the east here, and then came a claim again. They had land over there and then had another allotment in this country Senator Long. We want to know whether he wants to sell his land. He has an allotment ? The Inteepeetee. Yes. Senator Long. Ask him whether he wants the right to sell his sur- plus land — his allotment ? The Inteepeetee. "No, sir." Senator Long. He does not ? The Inteepeetee. "No." Senator Long. Ask him whether the full bloods whom he knows want the right to sell their land ? The Inteepeetee. " No. " Senator Long. They do not ? The Inteepeetee. "No, sir; that is, the full-blood Indians do not want to sell their land." He says he wants an answer as to what makes a citizen of this country out of a citizen of Alabama. He wants to know what makes a citizen in this country. He says he got 160 acres in Alabama and got land up there. That was before being a United States citizen. He wants to know about being an American citizen and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Senator Tellee. He knows that he is a citizen now, does he not? The Chaieman. It is explained to me that he says that some of the Cherokees have allotments in Alabama and Tennessee, and that they have allotments also here, and why should they have allotments there and here too ? That is the way it is explained to me. Senator Tellee. They may have had land over there. Mr. James M. Keys. I would like to explain what he wants, or says. There is a class of people known as " Reservators " in this country, who took reservations under the old treaty in Alabama and Tennessee, and they have come here. Now, he wants to know ■ whether they can be citizens in this country — having taken their reservations there — whether they would be entitled to allotments here. Senator Tellee. Undoubtedly, if they came with the consent of the Cherokees here. If the Cherokees here wanted them to come and asked them to come and accepted them, then of course they are citi- zens here. (To the interpreter) : Tell him that we do not have any- thing to do with that question at all. That question we can not set- tle. That will be settled in the courts. Senator Long. Tell him we can not answer that. Senator Tellee. Does he not talk English? The Inteepeetee. He says "that is all." The Chaieman. Referring again to the note I received from the freedmen who wished' to be heard, to present some matters, I will ask whether Mr. J. B. Wilson is in the room at this time? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. Will you step forward Mr. Wilson and present what you have to sajr. And let me impress upon you that we have to leave here early in the evening, and we shall be glad if in presenting your statement you will be as brief as possible. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 205 STATEMENT OF J. B. WILSON, A CHEROKEE FBEEDMAN. Senator Long. What is your business ? Mr. Wilson. Farming. Senator Long. What is your post-office address? Mr. Wilson. Lenapah, Ind. T. Senator Long. You are a Cherokee f eedman, are you ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir; I was born a Cherokee slave. I am 50 years old. The Chairman. You may proceed with your statement. Mr. Wilson. I have lived all my life, with the exception of about two and a half years during the civil war, in the Cherokee Nation. During that time I was in the Choctaw Nation. I have been twice enrolled as a Cherokee freedman, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation; received moneys that were paid to the citizens on the two rolls on which 1 was enrolled. Since that time I have been rejected lay the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes as a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. What I wanted now to put before this committee was this : That I felt that my treatment was not exactly just, as I had been accorded the right by two Commissions sent by the United States to the Chero- kee Nation to enroll the freedmen citizens of the Cherokee Nation — the John W. Wallace^ and the Colonel Clifton Commissions. The tes- timony that I gave before those two Commissions sufficed to show that I was entitled to citizenship in the Cherokee Nation. I was rejected by the Dawes Commission on that same testimony ; not only myself but some two thousand others. Perhaps more. The Curtis Act pro- vided against us. I myself, with other freedmen whose cases are of the same nature as mine, met several honorable gentlemen of the Senate, some of them memxbers of this committee, asking them to favor us when the bill came before them to enable us to prove that we were citizens of the Cherokee Nation. Senator Long. What was the basis of the proof that came before the Dawes Commission that induced them to reject you as citizens? Mr. Wilson. That if our names were not on the roll of 1880 we were not entitled to enrollment as citizens of the Cherokee Nation, and of course we thought that we ought to be entitled to enrollment, as we had given satisfaction to the two Commissions that had preceded that that we were entitled to be allowed to participate, and had been allowed to participate, in the funds of the Cherokee Nation, as other citizens. I desired to present before this committee my case and ask them that my case be represented or defended in the approaching Congress. Senator Long. Why were you not put on the rolls of 1880? Do you know that ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What was the point? Why did the tribe reject you? Mr. Wilson. I did not suffice the tribe that I was here. Senator Long. You did not satisfy them ? Mr. Wilson. No, sir; that I was here within six months from July, 1880. Senator Teller. That was a matter that came before the Com- mission? 206 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. Yes. We tried three times to get them in. Senator Teller. Yes, and failed. Mr. Wilson. I wanted to say to the committee that we took an appeal and it is now pending. Senator Teller. Where ? Mr. Wilson. It was taken before the honorable Secretary of the Interior. I suppose it will be pending until March 4, 1907, and we suppose that according to law the roll will be closed and that we will not then be entitled to prosecute our claims. We want it to be pre- sented to this committee that we were entitled to be enrolled as Chero- kee citizens, having been born and raised with the Cherokee people and never knowing any other. Senator Teller. Were you not out of the State or Cherokee Nation? Mr. Wilson. I was in the Choctaw Nation during the war. Senator Teller. And you did not get back before February 11, 1867, did you? Mr. Wilson. We proved by the two commissions that we were here during that time and in the next commission they set it aside. . Senator Teller. The proof was the same, you say? Mr. Wilson. Yes, the very same. Senator Long. But you were rejected by the nation on the ground that you did not get back before February 11, 1867? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. John W. Wolf and D. W. Wilson, a young master of mine, swore for me before the Wallace court in 1899 and swore for me before the Dawes Commission that he knew me; that they came here in the spring of 1866 during the month of March and that he knew me beyond reasonable doubt to be in the country before the closing of that year, not later than January 1, and he was confident of it. Later he changed his view as to the fact and swore that he made a mistake, and that he was not positive as to my coming and that it was later, 1867 instead of 1866. That was the nature of his statement. Mr. John W. Wolf failed to appear before the Commission and Mr. Tom F. Wolf, who went to Fort Gibson to swear in our behalf, backed down and would not swear at all and that was the basis of our testimony before the Dawes Commission. Senator Long. How many of you freedmen that were in this case were rejected? Mr. Wilson. About 2,000. I can not tell definitely, but some- where in the neighborhood of that number. Senator Long. Some of you were up in Kansas ? Mr. Wilson. I never saw Kansas. Well, yes; I have seen it within the last few years. Senator Teller. Had you never been out of the Territory? Mr. Wilson. No, sir; I never was out of the Territory in my hfe. Senator Long. You were with the Choctaw Nation ? Mr. Wilson. Yes, but never out of the Territory. Senator Teller. After the war was over where did you go ? Mr. Wilson. We came right back to the Cherokee Nation just after the closing of the war. Senator Teller. Under that act you had to get back when? Senator Long. Before the 11th of February, 1867. Senator Teller. That was six months after the treaty? Senator Long. Yes. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 207 Senator Teller. Where were you during that time — you say you were here in the Territory ? Mr. Wilson. Yes. We estabUshed the fact that we were here. Senator Teller. Did they establish the fact that you were some- where else? Mr. Wilson. We were neighbors — Mr. Wilson and we — all during the war. Senator Teller. Where were joii from the summer of 1866 to the following February? Mr. Wilson. We were in the Cherokee Nation. The Chairman. When did you return to the Cherokee Nation from the Choctaws 1 Mr. Wilson. In December, 1866. Senator Long. December, 1866 — ^.you are sure about that? Mr. Wilson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Then you got in here before February 11, 1867? Mr. Wilson. Yes; but since that time the Cherokees hold that we did not return before that time. When they made the roll of 1880 they refused to take us on. It was this way: It was no trouble during these Commissions to establish the fact or get people to swear out people that they wanted to swear out. It was no trick to get witnesses to swear out those they wanted out. Senator Long. Did they introduce evidence to show that yoa had not been there? Mr. Wilson. I do not know what evidence they introduced or proved in my case, but they rejected me as not being here in time for the treaty of 1866. I was not here when my case was in rebuttal — here in Vinita. I was tried at Fort Gibson, and when the case was rebutted I was not here. Afterwards I received notice that I had been rejected on the ground of not returning. The notice says, "Your application for enrollment among the Cherokee freedmen, among others, the Dawes Commission do not find you upon the authenticated roll of the Cherokees of 1880; therefore you are denied the right of enrollment as a Cherokee freedman." That was all I know about that. I should like to be enrolled. I came here offhand to-day and had nothing to present to this committee in the way of a statement. I hoped that I would be allowed to present a written statement of my case and I would leave it with this committee, that it may be presented — my case may be — to the Senate and House, if it pleases them. The Chairman. You may present us with anything you wish, in writing. Mr. Wilson. Very well, sir. I thank the committee, and perhaps I will meet you at Muskogee. STATEMENT OF D. H. WILSON. The Chairman. State your residence and occupation. Mr. Wilson. I am a lawyer; residence, Vinita, Ind. T. The Chairman. You may proceed to state what you wish to present to the committee. Mr. Wilson. I represent about forty of the Cherokee freedmen and their descendants, constituting about forty in all, in the attempt to collect what is known as their share of the strip money due them as 208 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. citizens of the Cherokee Nation. The committee will understand that what was loiown as the Cherokee Strip was sold some years ago and the money was prorated among the citizens of the Cherokee Nation and distributed by an agent. Senator Long. How much did each citizen get ? Mr. Wilson. Two hundred and ninety-five dollars. Senator Long. The whole sum was collected and distributed pro rata? Mr. Wilson. I understand that $295 was the total amount, but some deduction was made for transfers. I am not certain about that. But, be that as it may, it is hardly material so far as the statement goes. The Cherokee freedmen whom I represent under- took to get their claims allowed through the Cherokee council. A number of them were disallowed, so that I presented them afterwards to the Secretary of the Interior. Senator Long. They were rejected because they were not con- sidered citizens? Mr. Wilson. No, sir; they simply rejected them. Senator Long. Are those on the rolls ? Mr. Wilson. They are on the authenticated rolls of 1880. That is the basis of the citizenship of all the Cherokee freedmen. They are either on that roll or they are the descendants of freedmen on that roll. Their claims have been disallowed ever since that time by the Sec- retary of the Interior and by the Cherokee national council. The Secretary of the Interior simply held that he had no way of meeting the payments. Senator Teller. The money had all been paid out, I suppose? Mr. Wilson. There is a considerable sum of money in the hands of the Government belonging to the Cherokee Nation, but for some reason the Secretary of the Interior did not see his way to reaching it. Senator Long. Why were they rejected if they were citizens or were on the roll? Mr. Wilson. The Cherokee national council did not see fit to allow them. I did not go there personally. To be frank with the committee, I think that is largely through prejudice. There is a very strong prejudice between the Indian blood of the Cherokee Nation and the freedmen. Senator Long. Some of the freedmen were paid, were they not? Mr. Wilson. Oh, yes, a good many of them. Senator Long. Why were your particular clients not paid? Mr. Wilson. The pay roll was made up by a John S. Dixon and he paid the claimants their share of that money in 1886, I believe. I can only account for it by the fact that that *vas hastily done and their names were left off, or that in the hurry and rush and con- fusion that existed there they were overlooked. But the fact remains nevertheless that they were citizens on the roll of 1880 of the Cher- okee Nation and were placed on the rolls by the Dawes Commission. Senator Long. And received allotments since ? Mr. Wilson. All of them received allotments. The Chairman. Is there any question between the Cherokees and themselves as to their citizenship ? Mr. Welson. None at all. No question anywhere. I thought that the matter was proper for legislation — that the subject war- ranted some action of Congress that would give them the right to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 209 apply in some proper form for tliis money, and I suppose that the committee could do nothing more than cause an act to be passed that will enable these people to sue in the Court of Claims for the recovery of the money, and I have prepared a bill that I think will meet the case. The thought occurred to me that I would like to say something to the committee on the subject, but it was only a few minutes ago and therefore my remarks are not very well prepared, but I think the committee will get the sense of what I have to say about it. With these few remarks I will leave the matter with you, gentlemen. I will perhaps, however, have a gentleman in Washing- ton to present the matter further or keep in touch with the subject there. I was before the committee , yesterday in reference to the sales of certain lands hj partition proceedings with regard to the reservation constituting the Quapaw Agency. I have prepared a bill that will apply in, I think, proper form for legislation on that subject. I left a draft of a bill yesterday, but that one was not satis- factory to my mind. Mr. Wilson presented a new draft, which is as follows: A BILL Empowering certain citizens of the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, to sue in the Court of claims. Be it enacted in the United States Senate and House of Representatives: That all freed- men citizens and all free colored persons, who are citizens of the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, be and they are hereby granted the right to sue in the United States Court of Claims at Washington, District of Columbia, for their proportionate share of moneys derived from the sale of what is known as the Cherokee Strip, commonly known as Strip money. Sec. 2. That said suit may be brought against the United States and the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, as parties defendant, and one or more persons may join as plaintiffs, the parent or parents, or lawfully appointed guardians being authorized to sue in the behalf of minor children; and in the event any minor child or children shall have no parent or guardian, suit may be filed in its behalf by a next iriend. Sec. 3. That judgment may be entered in such suit for or against any person or per- sons joining in such suit, or for or against either the United States or the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, as to the court may seem just and proper. Sec. 4. That full and complete jurisdiction is vested in the United States Court of Claims to entertain and determine all suits that may be filed under the provisions of this act. Sec. 5. That money due deceased persons may be sued for by their duly appointed executors or administrators: Anxl provided further, That such guardians, executors, or administrators may receive their appointments at the place of residence of such minors, or at the late residence or domicile of deceased persons. Mr. Wilson also presented the following: PETITION OF FKEEDMEN CITIZENS OF THE CHEKOKEB NATION. ViNiTA, Ind. T., November U, 1906. To the honorable chairman and members of the select committee of the United States Senate investigating affairs in Indian Territory: Your petitioners, the undersigned committee, for and on behalf of the freedmen citizens of the Cherokee Nation, would respectfully state and represent that heretofore to wit, , 1901, the said Cherokee freedmen for and on behalf of themselves and their descendants made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes to be enrolled as freedmen citizens of the Cherokee Nation. That at the time of making their said applications they introduced and offered in support thereof the testimony of various witnesses to the effect that the said freedmen had complied with the provisions of article 9 of the treat)^ of 1866. Your petitioners, the undersigned committee, aforesaid, would further show and represent that at the hearings before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, the said freedmen applicants, numbering in all about 2,500 or 3,000, further offered in 210 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. support of their said applications and rights to citizenship in the Cherokee Na''ion, the Kerns-Clifton roll whereon their said names appear as indicated by the page and number, as set forth in the records of their said cases made by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes and now in its possession. Your petitioners, the undersigned committee for and on behalf of said freedmen citi- zens complaining of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes and the Cherokee Nation, would respectfully show and state that said Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes acting within the scope of its and their duties exceeded its and their jurisdiction in this; whereas the status and rights of said freedmen citizens had been fixed and became vested by virtue of the decision, judgment, and findings of the decree of the Court of Claims rendered on the 3d day of February, 1896, in the case of Mose Whitmire, trustee, against the Cherokee Nation. That said Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes and the Cherokee Nation wholly disregarding the rights of said freedmen citizens which had become fixed and vested by virtue of said decision, judgment, and findings of said decree, did thereby on the day of , 1903-4-5, reject the rights to citizenship of said Cherokee freed- men numbering as heretofore stated, about 2,500 or 3,000 persons. Wherefore your petitioners, the undersigned committee aforesaid, would respect- fully ask and request that this honorable committee recommend to the Congress of the United States, this incoming session, the enactment, at the very earliest date possible and practicable, such appropriate legislation as will meet with justice and equity for and on behalf of said freedmen.. And especially does your committee ask and request that if the Congress should see fit to enact the legislation herein requested that it include the holding intact the judgment, decision, and findings of the decree of the Court of Claims hereinbefore referred to, and the freedmen citizens whose names appear thereon be entitled to participate in the allotment and distribution of all lands and moneys of the Cherokee Nation as mentioned and set forth in said decree. To all of which your petitioners will ever pray, etc. Respectfully submitted. Franklin Ross, J. B. Wilson, Moses Rn.sY, E. Freeman, Geo. W. Vann, Andy Webber, Committee. STATEMENT OF ADELINE BIVINS, A MIXED-BLOOD CHEROKEE. Senator Long. Are you a Cherokee ? Mrs. BiviNs. Yes, sir. Senator Long. By blood ? Mrs. BiviNS. Yes, sir; a little by blood. Senator Long. What was it that you wished to state ? Mrs. BiviNS. I have two sons, both grown. One of them lives in the Cherokee Nation — the oldest one. The other lives in Missouri. He came out here when we came and he stayed two years. When we went back he was not grown, and he went with us. The oldest one was in Missouri then; came out again and has always lived here ever since. He got his land and everything all right, but the one ia Mis- souri has not. Senator Long. You got yours ? Mrs. BiviNS. Yes. He was before the Dawes Commission to enroll and they would not let him. Senator Long. Why not ? Mrs. BiviNS. He has poor health and could not live here. Senator Long. They refused to enroll him because he had aban- doned this place ? Mrs. Bivins. He lived here only with us. He went back and forth every year or so. He has stomach trouble and thinks he could not live here at all. Senator Long. How old is he ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 211 Mrs. BiviNS. He is about fortj^, I suppose. Senator Long. Is he married ? Mrs. BiviNS. Yes; and has two children. Senator Long. Where does he live ? Mrs. BiviNS. In Johnson County, Mo. He has such poor health he never felt that he could live here. He can hardly live there. I wanted to know whether you could not do something for him. It is hard for one son to get what he ought and the other not. Senator Long. You had no trouble in getting yours ? Mrs. BiviNS. No. Senator Long. The other son had no trouble ? Mrs. BiviNS. No.' Senator Long. You were on the Indian rolls of 1880, were you? Mrs. BiviNS. Yes. Senator Long. But he was not? Mrs. BiviNS. He has two children who are grown — my son in Mis- souri has. Senator Long. And they are not on the rolls ? Mrs. BiviNS. No. He came out and drew his strip money. Mr. J. R. BiviNS (husband of Adeline Bivins). He came out before the payment and was readmitted. Jm-s. Bivins. I left my farm in Missouri and I gave him a farm and he lives there and is taking care of mine and his too. Senator Long. Is that all you wish to say? Mrs. Bivins. Yes. STATEMENT OF A. S. McBAE. The Chairman. Give your address and occupation? Mr. McRea. My post-office address is Muskogee, Indian Territory. I am an attorney at law. Senator Long. You are a Cherokee freedman, are you ? Mr. McRea. No, sir; I am from a State. Senator Long. What was it that you wished to say to the com- mittee ? Mr. McRea. I desire to say that in the year 1901, when the com- mission to the Five Civilized Tribes was taking the census of the Cherokee freedmen, I was employed by a considerable number of the freedmen to represent them before the Commission. The applica- tions for the enrollment of freedmen citizens began ia April, 1901, and the Commission was in session taking the census during April and May of that year. Citizen freedmen who made applications for enrollment during that period were not rebutted by the Cherokee Nation as to the evidence introduced for or on behalf of them until October of that year. The representatives of the Cherokee Nation having, as they had, plenty of means to go into the State of Kansas and other States and obtain witnesses to testify against those freedmen, did so. The freed- men, being poor, were unable to secure the means to go and get wit- nesses in rebuttal to those offered by the Cherokee Nation against them, but the contention of those freedmen, numbering about 3,000, is that the Dawes Commission exceeded its authority and its jurisdic- tion when it went behind the decree of the Court of Claims rendered on the 3d day of February, 1896, in the case of Moses Whitmire, trus- tee, V. The Cherokee Nation. As you gentlemen are aware, that 212 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Commission was created hj one being appointed for and on behalf of the Cherokee Nation, one for and on behalf of the freedmen of the Cherokee Nation, and one for and on behalf of the Secretary of the Interior. That Commission was given power to come down into the Cherokee country and ascertain who of the Cherokee freedmen were entitled to participate in the distribution of the strip money of the Cherokee Nation. They were not only under the provisions of that decree entitled to participate, but under its terms and provisions they were permitted to participate in the distribution or all other moneys and the lands of the Cherokee Nation. A roll was made and the roll was approved by the Congress of the United States and by the Secretary of the Interior. Now, then, gentlemen, the contention of these freedmen is that the Dawes Commission was without authority or jurisdiction to go behind that roll, and that by the terms of that decree the only power delegated to the Dawes Commission was that whenever an applicant came before the Commission for enrollment the Commission was to ascertain whether or not the particular applicant's and his descend- ants' names appeared on the roll, and the identity of the persons established. Also, whether under the Curtis Act of 1898 the person making appli- cation for citizenship had been a citizen prior to June 29, 1898. They were further invested with the power to ascertain whether or not the names of the parties who applied for citizenship were placed upon these rolls or this particular roll without authority of law or by fraud. Neither of these propositions has been charged by the Cherokee Nation — that is, as to whether or not these people's names were placed on that roll by fraud or without authority of law, and they ask through me, as their representative, that this committee will recom- mend to the Congress of the United States that the roll prepared by the Kerns-Clifton Commission and the names of all persons appearing on that roll may be permitted to stand under and in accordance with the provisions of the decree of the Court of Claims rendered February 3, 1896, Whitmire v. The Cherokee Nation. The Chairman. So far as the committee is concerned, we feel that we have received information on all important matters as to which we were seeking information. It is exceedingly important that we leave this city this evening, and it is therefore necessary for us to close these hearings as quickly as possible. If anything should occur to either of you, you will be welcome to appear at any hearing given at any of the other cities in the Territory, or if anything should occur to you now we shall be glad to extend our hearing this afternoon. Mr. TooLEY. I should like to say a few words. ViNiTA, Ind. T., November 14, 1906. STATEMENT OF WILLIAM TOOLEY, A CHEBOKEE-SHAWNEE INDIAN. The Chairman. State your residenge and occupation. Mr. TooLEY. I live about 8 miles from here. I am trying to be a farmer. The Chairman. What is your nationality? Mr. TooLEY. I am a Cherokee-Shawnee. The Chairman. You may proceed to make your statement. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 213 [ Mr. TooLET. I wanted to say something in regard to the removal of the restrictions. I do not think that the full-blood Indians ought to have the restrictions removed unless they want it done. They make their application to the agent, and if the agent sees fit to have the restrictions removed they are removed. There are lots of full- blood Indians that need this. They have land, but they have no money. Some are blind, some are crippled, and they lack money to live on. The Chaikman. Do you think they ought to have their restrictions removed in the same manner in which the mixed bloods have theirs removed now? Mr. TooLEY. Yes, sir; not to remove them generally, but in proper cases. Senator Long. Are you a full blood 1 Mr. TooLEY. "Yes, su-. Senator Long. A full-blood Cherokee ? Mr. TooLEY. No; a full-blood Shawnee. Senator Teller. You live in the Cherokee country ? Mr. TooLEY. Yes, sir; 8 miles west of here. Senator Teller. You have your allotment? Mr. TooLEY. Yes; 110 acres. Senator Teller. Is it good land ? Mr. TooLEY. No ; it is poor land. Senator Long. You are a member of the Shawnee Tribe? Mr. TooLBY. Yes, sir; the Cherokee-Shawnee. We bought in in 1869. Senator Long. How many of your tribe of Cherokee-Shawnees are there ? Mr. TooLEY. Somewhere about 900, I guess. The full bloods were about 279 on the Dawes roll. That was a good while ago and many of them have died. The Indians can not blame anyone if they want their restrictions removed hereafter. They can not say that the Government imposed on them. Senator Long. Do you really want to sell your land ? Mr. TooLEY. I do not. Senator Teller. Do the others ? Mr. Tooley. Some of them do. Senator Long. Have you made application to have your restrictions removed ? Mr. Tooley. No, sir. I do not intend to, either, as long as I live. I can hold my own. I can naake my living out of the ground and what the Government allows me. I have a few hogs and some cattle, and I get my living out of the ground. If I did not have the cattle I should have to sell the land, I guess, in order to live. Senator Brandegee. Is that all you want to say? Mr. Tooley. That is all I want to say, except this : I married one of the Eastern Shawnees. My family belongs over that way. My baby, I guess, will draw, under that Curtis Act. I would like to have matters fixed the same way over there among the Eastern Shawnees, as we were talking about yesterday. Some of them, the young peo- ple, are educated, and they can comply with the ways of the white men. When they grow up, like white men, they can be citizens and will know the prices of property and can realize on their money. 214 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. What you think is that the full-blood Indian, no matter of what tribe, should be allowed to show his competency to transact his business? Mr. TooLET. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. And if he can do that, and wants his restrictions removed, he should be allowed to have them removed ? Mr. TooLEY. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Through the agency, or before a judge, or other- wise? Mr. TooLEY. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF MB. GEORGE MEIGS, A CHEROKEE FREEDMAN. The Chairman. Are you a Cherokee freedman ? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where do you live? Mr. Meigs. On the Big Creek. The Chairman. How far from here? Mr. Meigs. About 20 miles, I guess. The Chairman. What is your post-office? Mr. Meigs. Wyman. The Chairman. If you have anything to say to the committee we shall be glad to listen to you. Mr. Meigs. I have got this much to say. I was one of the old settlers over here on Dog Creek, and somehow or another this last court knocked me and my five children out. We got rejected notices from the Dawes Cormnission. Then the mother and her people, a daughter and nine children, got admitted, while we got knocked out. The Chairman. Were you a Cherokee slave? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir; I was a Cherokee slave. Was owned by the Cherokees. Senator Long. When did you leave the nation? Mr. Meigs. At the breaking out of the war. Senator Long. When did you get back ? Mr. Meigs. In 1866. Senator Long. But you could not prove it ? Mr. Meigs. I proved it in this way: I proved it in the other two courts. I was on the roll. When they asked why I was not on the roll of 1880; the reason I was not on that roll was that I had to bring my teams and everything down, and when we got to this country there was nobodjr here in the country — no settlers. We had to work then for something to eat. My daddy had to sell his horse to get grub. Then we were here afoot. The others got enrolled. They throwed us out. The Chairman. Because you were not there? Mr. Meigs. I suppose so. Senator Long. About when did you come back here — in 1866? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Where were you during the war? Mr. Meigs. At Fort Scott. Senator Long. In Kansas? Mr. Meigs. Yes; but we moved back. I moved right back here with my folks before the Dawes Commission. Senator Long. What did they say ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 215 Mr. Meigs. My witnesses were Reuben Sanders and Daniel Sanders. Senator Long. When did they say you got back ? Mr. Meigs. In 1866. The Chairman. Did they tell the Commission that ? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir; they told the Commissioners those very words. Senator Long. What did the nation say? What witnesses had they to show that you did not get back? Mr. Meigs. Well, now, sir, that is too much for me to say. I would not like to stand up here and tell you anything that I did not know. The Chairman. The Dawes Commission decided that you were not here? Mr. Meigs. Let me tell you. Senator. Give me a little time to think. When I got my "rejected" notice I believe it read that George Meigs moved back here with his father and mother, and he was of age at that time. That is all the evidence that I ever heard was against me. But then, of course, it would leave out that I claimed I was under age and the reason I claim I was under age — I remember the old men went down to Dog Creek and got down to the Cherokees. I can not think of all the names, but one was named James Henry and one was John Grass, and there were others, New- man Reilly says to my daddy, "Your boy is under age, and when he goes into the woods to cut down a tree he must cut it down and not leave it half on the stock." Senator Long. How do you explain that your daddy got on the rolls and you did not ? Mr. Meigs. I can not tell you. When the rejected notice first came in, they enrolled my father and my mother and I do not know how many grandchildren, but anyhow they rejected me and my five children and my brother Sam. We got rejected notices. That is all I know. My mother is dead now. Just a few days before she died she got a rejected notice, but still before she got the rejected notice they let her go to work and file, and she went to work and sold her land, down to her homestead, and then one of her granddaughters sold down to her homestead, and a few days before she died she got a rejected notice. I wanted to carry it to her, but they told me not to; that she was sick. The Commission sent her a rejected notice, but still they held that my father and one of the oldest daughters and one of the youngest daughters are on the rolls yet, and are citizens of the Cherokee Nation. Senator Long. They are still living ? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir; they are still living. And now, since I came back to this country Senator Long. When did you come back ? Mr. Meigs. When the whole set of men on Dog Creek came back. But now I am gone blind. When my daddy was coming here he was coming to get a home for his children. When we got here over on Dog Creek we had nothing to eat. Old man Reilly lived on another creek. My daddy looked 'round and 'round and found Lee Scrimson and made a bargain with him to take his son over there to work. I worked over there a week for a bushel of corn. Then I made rails and got good wages — good money for my rails. At that time, too, I got a doflar and a half for meal. Then I had nothing to live on and 216 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. had to go back to the woods and get poke salad (herbs). We could only strip the leaves off. I said to my daddy : " If you had stayed up in Kansas we would have had meat." The Chairman. If he had stayed in Kansas you Would have been able to live more comfortably ? Mr. Meigs. Yes. Now we had only poke salad and onions, and did not have any grease with it and no salt with it. Then we got up on Catlin Creek and our team gave out. Then daddy would go down and shoo around old Dog Creek again. He had a steer, and built him a house almost complete, but the steer gave out and he had to stop building. That is the way we had to live. It was left with the United States Government. If I was that kind of a man I would have come to the nation to give me a home, but I was thinking hard of my daddy. I left it till my daddy died, and then I went to work to get a home for my children. Now my children are all grown up and settled down and they have places, but they are liable to be knocked out any time. Of course I would not go to work and tell any lie to try to get on that roll, but I claim the right to the Cherokee Nation and the reason that I claim that right to the Cherokee Nation is that when we first came down here among the Cherokees I could not talk Cherokee at all, but I say I was Cherokee raised, and after I got back there I could under- stand every word they said. My daddy could talk, and the old man Sanders could talk. They went to work, and I believe we were enrolled then, and if those old Cherokees were living to-day we would not have had such a hard time. But all the old Cherokees are gone — dead and buried — and all the old colored men are gone. I guess that I am mighty near the oldest one now over there. The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Wilson, the man who talked here this afternoon? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You are in pretty much the same situation that he is in, are you? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And your experience, so far as the rolls are con- cerned, is very much like his-? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Both of you were refused admission by the Dawes Commission at the time on the ground that you were not here when the law specified you should be here? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And you both claim to have been here? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. And they had enrolled my daddy and one of the oldest daughters and the youngest. Senator Long. Where do you live now ? Mr. Meigs. Over here on Dog Creek. Senator Long. You farm there ? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Do you own the land ? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Did you buy it? Mr. Meigs. No, sir. Senator Long. How did you come to own it? Mr. Meigs. I improved it. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 217 Senator Long. How many acres have you ? Mr. Meigs. 120 acres. Another man filed on that 120 acres, but they allowed me to file a contest, and I filed a contest. The Ghaikman. Is that contest decided yet? Mr. Meigs. No, sir. The Chairman. Then it is not decided whether you own the 120 acres or not? Mr. Meigs. No, sir. Senator Long. Do your children own land ? Mr. Meigs. Yes. Senator Long. Are they allotted ? Mr. Meigs. No, sir. Senator Long. Is that all the land you have? Mr. Meigs. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And that is under contest ? Mr. Meigs. Yes. The Chairman. When you took that land you iust went out and took it? Mr. Meigs. Yes. Just took it under the rights that they said the treaty gave me — that if we came back in here we would have the right and title to the land that we would have had if we were with the Gherokees. When we came here my daddy was known to the old rnen and if the old men lived now we would not have had such a hard time. Now, when I am with some of the young men I do not know them and they do not know me. STATEMENT OF MB. JIM WOOLF, A FULL-BLOOD SHAWNEE INDIAN. Mr. WooLF spoke through an interpreter (Mr. Ben Carpenter). The Chairman. State the nationality and the address of this man. The Interpreter. He says he lives at Whiteoak Hill, Ind. T. He is a full-blood Shawnee. The Chairman. Tell him we wish him to make such statements as he desires to have on record. The Interpreter. He says that the Dawes Commission told him he was not in time for the enrollment because he was not on the roll of 1880. He has been a voter here in the Cherokee Nation when we had elections here and joined with the Cherokee Nation always. He thought that that was his home — the Cherokee Nation. He would like to know whether he would be entitled to enrollment or not? Senator Teller. We can not tell. The Interpreter. He says that he has drawn with us Shawnees when he drew Cherokee money. He thinks he belongs here. Senator Long. But the Dawes Commission rejected him? The Interpreter. Yes; on the ground that he had not been on the roll of 1880. The Chairman. Ask him whether he had been on any roll before that. The Interpreter. He says he supposed he was on the Shawnee roll before 1880. The Chairman. Where was he before that ? The Interpreter. In Oklahoma. The Chairman. How long was he there? How long away from the Cherokees? S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 15 218 FIVE CIVII^IZED TRIBES. The Interpreter. He was out there six years. Senator Teller. That is the reason, I suppose, that he was not put on the roll. Senator Long. They thought he had abandoned them. He was out therein 1880? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. We could not tell him whether he was entitled to be enrolled. We would have to ascertain where he was, and all about it. The Chairman. We are much obliged to the gentlemen here for the information that we have received. We can only say to those who are interested that all that we have heard will be most carefully con- ' sidered. The purpose of the committee is, as nearly as we can, to arrive at just conclusions, and the recommendations that we shall make will be such as will be justified by the information we receive in the Territory. We can only hope that the recommendations of the committee and their report may result in much information to the Congress of the United States and much benefit to the citizens of the Indian Territory. The sessions at Vinita are now closed. At 4.30 p. m. the committee adjourned, to meet at Muskogee, Ind. T., to-morrow, Thursday, November 15, 1906, at 9.30 a. m. Muskogee, Ind. T., Thursday, November 15, 1906. The committee met at 9.30 a. m., at the rooms of the Muskogee Commercial Club. Present: Messrs. Clark, or Wyoming (chairman). Long, Brandegee, and Teller. The chairman filed the following letter: Department of the Interior, Washington, November IS, 1906. Hon. Clarence D. Clark, Chairman of Senate Investigating Committee, Vinita, Ind. T. Sir: I have the honor to request that any complaint that may be entertained by your committee which may in any respect reflect upon the administration hj the Department of any matter in the Indian Territory under its jurisdiction will be exhaustively examined by your committee in order that every relevant fact may be ascertained, considered, and reported, and accordingly I have instructed the local officials of the Department in charge at Muskogee to place their services at the disposal of your committee, and also the services of any employee under their control, and such records, papers, or other information that said officials may have or can obtain, when- ever your committee may desire the same. You are further advised that all records, papprs, or other information in the posses- sion of this Department, which may be thought by your committee to be of service to it in the discharge of its duties, will be promptly furnished upon request. Respectfully, E. A. Hitchcock, Seeretary. The Chairman. Gentlemen, the select committee, appointed by the Senate of the United States for the purpose of visiting Indian Territory and gaining such information as might be of interest and value in recommending future legislation in regard to matters con- nected with the Territory, has been for the two days last past hold- ing sessions at Vinita. Of necessity, when we consider the great and manifold interests involved, the time at our disposition is exceedingly limited. There- FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 219 fore it will not be surprising if some of those who have interests wliich are paramount in their own nainds should fail to receive suffi- cient consideration, or the consideration to which they may think their particular matter is entitled; but the committee, so far as it is concerned, is willing to devote all its time to the work before it. We have lost half an hour this morning, but that has not occurred through any fault of ours. We are prepared not only to devote to the work the hours of the day, but if necessary, are wilhng to hold night ses- sions here as well as at the other places which we expect to visit, to the end that we may secure all the information possible. Under the conditions which I have outlined, those who have mat- ters to present will realize the necessity of having these matters pretty thoroughly digested and arranged, and be prepared to present them in as speedy and concise a form as possible. Our time is lim- ited, as I before observed, and we have a great deal to do, so I trust ' all who have matters to present will bear this admonition in mind. When I say this, however, I do not wish to be understood as intimat- ing that the committee desires that any person or body having mat- ters to present shall slight in any degree the matter they •wish to present. The committee simply wishes all to understand that the presentation of any subject may be made as brief as is consistent with a full and fair presentation, considering the importance thereof. It has been thought by the committee that this meeting to-day should be devoted largely to things which apply more to individuals or to small bodies of men rather than to the greater matters which pertain more properly to the entire territory of the Five Civilized Tribes. In other words, that it might be better for the question of alienation, and the question of mineral leases, and perhaps the ques- tion of mineral lands, and what should be done with them, to be deferred until to-morrow. If, however, and I wish to impress this upon those who are interested, the parties desiring to speak are not ready when their time comes, the purpose of the committee is to go on with whatever may be ready for presentation and thus not allow any time to be lost. I presume some of you gentlemen who are present here have some matters along the lines that I have indi- cated, which you may wish to present this morning, and I assure you that the committee will be glad of any information that any of you may care to present. I will say further, that all the sessions and meetings of the com- mittee will be public, and the committee invites all persons within the limits, of the Five Civilized Tribes to come before it with any matter which they wish to present, and they will be accorded a hearing and consideration in public. No case or matter will have any consid- eration or hearing in private. All sessions are absolutely open to the public. Now, if anybody is prepared to make any presentation we will be glad to hear him. Mr. Robert L. Owen, of Muskogee. The superintendent of the schools is present, Mr. Chairman, and the matter of providing for the schools in Indian- Territory prior to the time when statehood becomes effective is one that is exceedingly important. It repre- sents practically all of the country school children, as well as many of our town school children, probably numbering as many as 150,000 school children in all ; and as the superintendent of schools is present I think it .would probably be well to hear from him now on that sub- 220 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ject. I have not discussed the matter with him, but I know he will be prepared to give very important information on that matter to the committee. The Chaikman. We investigated this matter to some extent at Vinita, and we would be very glad to hear any further information on that subject from the superintendent if he is able to furnish it. STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN D. BENEDICT, SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, INDIAN TERRITORY. Gentlemen of the Committee: I am superintendent of schools for Indian Territory. I will make my statement as brief as possible, because I have submitted to the Indian inspector, to be presented to you, some statements containing statistics regarding the schools in Indian Territory. During the year beginning with July 1, 1904, Congress gave us an appropriation of $100,000 to be used in connection with the tribal schools here for the purpose of withdrawing the country schools and admitting the white children to these little schools. With the aid of that $100,000 during that year, we were able to establish about 700 little day schools to which the whites and Indians were admitted on equal terms, the salaries of the teachers being paid partly out of this appropriation and partly out of the tribal school fund. For the next year. Congress increased that appropriation to $150,000 and that enabled us to establish about 800 of these schools. I will not be exact in my figures, but will say that the report that I will submit to you on this matter will give you definite and accurate figures. Of these little day schools By Senator Teller : Q. You mean that it increased the number so as to make 800 schools in all ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't mean 800 new ones? — A. No, sir. Q. Well, you may proceed. — A. During this past year the total number of schools we were enabled to establish was 972. Those By Senator Long : Q. That is during this fiscal year? — A. Yes, sir; during the fiscal year just closed on July 1 last. For this year Congress gave us an appropriation of $150,000, together with some surplus court fees, and we have now iti operation nearly 900 schools and are intend- ing to establish some more. In many of the neighborhoods, on account of cotton picking and other matters that require the work of the children, they don't desire the schools to begin quite so early in the season. This refers to certain portions of the 'Territory where cotton is raised in large quantities, and in other portions they desire the schools to begin on the first of September, but we expect by the first of the year to have from 950 to 1,000 schools in operation for periods varying from five to eight months each^ During the year just closed — that is, the school year which closed last June, there were in these schools which we established 10,849 Indians, 42,820 whites, and 6,807 negroes. Prior to the time of the Government beginning this work of assist- ing us in this, you will understand there was 42,820 whites and about FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 221 one-half of the 6,807 negroes who were noncitizens, who had no assistance whatever in the matter of education. The Chairman. That is for the country schools? — A. Yes, sir; these are all from the country schools. Senator Long. These do not include the town schools? — A. No, sir; we don't assist the town schools any whatever. The Secretary of the Interior ruled, I think, very properly, that where a town is incorporated it is presumed that it has the ability to maintain its own schools and that they should maintain them. Senator Teller. Well, do they do that? — ^A. Yes, sir. If you will drive over this city you will see six excellent public schools build- ings and a corps of teachers equal in educational ability to any corps • of teachers of the same size to be found any where in the States. Q. But your work or duty does not touch them? — A. No, sir; I have nothing to do with them — I don't have anything to do with the city schools. Senator Long. You have no supervision over them? — A. No, sir; my work does not include supervision over the schools in incorporated cities. By the act of 1898, 1 think the Curtis Act, the laws of Arkan- sas were made applicable in this Territory under that law the people of the towns in this Territory considered that they were governed by the laws of Arkansas governing such matters, and they proceeded forthwith to levy taxes for school purposes and build and carry on their own public schools in their own way. That is the only law we have governing the matter, and it applies only to incorporated towns. By Senator Teller : Q. Taxes are levied in the towns or cities then for the maintain- ance of public schools? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But you do not levy taxes for the maiatainance of country schools? Is that correct? — A. Yes, sir; that is right. There is no law authorizing the levying of taxes for school purposes outside of incorporated towns; but there is a good many little towns of 200 inhab- itants that have incorporated for mutual protection throughout the Territory, and I guess they have the authority to levy taxes if they want to; but that was not the purpose of their incorporation. They incorporated so that they might have some police power to enforce law and order in their borders. There are a good many towns of that class that are incorporated who are unable to maintain schools because of their lack of taxable property, and these towns are full of children without the means of acquKuig an education through the medium of schools. Q. I suppose some of these children attend the country schools ? — A. Yes, sir; we assist them to some extent by permitting them to attend the schools, but we have said to them that they must assist to some extent, and where the school needs two teachers we have said to them that they must pay for one teacher and we pay for the other, and in that way some of them get educational facilities, but they have to bear a share of the burden of maintaining the school. If this were not done, they could not have schooling at all, for many of these places are so small and the amount of taxable Property is so small that it is impossible for them to raise enough y a tax levy to pay for the cost of erecting and maintaining a school. So I will say in these nine hundred or more schools that we are 222 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. maintaining in the Territory we have not spent a dollar in the way of furnisliing or erecting schoolhouses. It has always been the tribal law, and we have followed it, that where a neighborhood desires help of this character — that is, assist- ance in the way of education — it must first, as a condition precedent to extending that assistance, build a schoolhouse, and knowing that our funds are limited, we have consistently followed that old tribal law or custom. Q. How do they raise the money? — A. To build the schoolhouse? Q. Yes, sir. — A. By contribution. One man will furnish a little money and another man will agree to haul the lumber, and so on, a few of them will devote a few days' labor at carpenter work, rough though it may be, and in that way they will build the schoolhouse, and, rough though it may be, it answers the purpose very well, for these people are not as particular as they are in the towns or the older settled portions of the States. What would not be tolerated in some localities is looked upon with a good deal of pride, and really it answers very well. It answers the purpose in this mild climate. It may not be ceiled and the walls are rough, in many instances undressed logs and chinked with wood and daubed with mud, but, as I say, it answers these people very well, and the education they get there is just as good as anywhere, as far as it goes. Under these cir- cumstances the only expense the fund is to is merely the payment of teachers' salaries. Now I am very anxious to present this matter just as it is, for the reason that I feared that Congress might con- sider that as we are very soon to have statehood they might come to the conclusion that it was not necessary any longer to hold out a helping hand. I feared that the impression might prevail that the State would be able to furnish all the aid that was necessary ia the matter of furnisliing an education to the children in the public schools. I wish to impress upon you that this is not the fact. State- hood has not been consummated yet — that is, we have not arrived at the point where a State is organized and running, so that it can step in and assume control of these schools. I have considered this question deeply and I can't see how it is possible ior the new State to help us. There will be very little property available for taxation. The lands are as yet nearly all owned by the Indians, and their lands are not subject to taxation and will not be subject to taxation even under the State as long as they continue to be held by the Indians. These lands are in the main still in their natural condition, and where they are improved as a rule the improvements are of the very simplest and primitive character, and where the land is cultivated it is done almost invariably by some poor white renter on shares and who is almost always totally devoid of anything approximating what is considered as wealth, but they almost invariably are rich ia the possession of children, so there you have the situation. Taxes can not be levied on the Indian's land, and the white renters, even if they were subject to taxation, are totally unable to bear the expense of maintaining schools, even if the same were supplemented by any little aid they might get from the State. There is not personal prop- erty enough to levy taxes on to yield any revenue approximating what would be required, and so there you are. The entire aspect of the country, so far as the character of its inhabitants, will have to change — that is, in many districts, before there can be a school sys- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 223 tem in these districts that will be self-supporting, and so it seems to me that, notwithstanding the fact that we have a new State, this portion of it to which I refer will be as absolutely helpless to main- tain schools as it is at the present time. That is my candid opinion — that it will be absolutely as helpless in the matter of maintaining rural schools as it has ever been. By Senator Long: Q. How long do you think we will be required to assist them, if Congress does conclude to assist them, which is by no means a fore- gone conclusion? — A. Well, I don't know, but if you want my opinion I can give it. Q. Well, that is what I asked for. — ^A. Well, gentlemen, it is my opinion that it will be necessary to furnish this assistance as long as the Indian lands in the locahty remains untaxable. That is my opiu- ion, that the schools in many of the rural districts will be nonsupport- ing until the lands become taxable. Q. In other words you mean until the restrictions are removed ? — A. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In your opinion for some time to come the main part of the means required for their support must come from the division of the State funds apportioned for that purpose? — ^A. Yes, sir; either from Congress or the new State, and I don't see how the new State can appropriate sufficient. The new State it is true will have $5,000,000, but that must be maintained as a peimanent State fund, for that is my understanding, that it must be maintained intact as a permanent fund and must not be distributed or disturbed as an entirety. In other words it must be loaned out and the interest derived from it only can be used for educational purposes. By Senator Long: Q. Congress has made no provision for distribution? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You have $150,000 appropriated for the current fiscal year, haven't you? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. That was the amount appropriated by Congress for the current fiscal year to aid education in the Indian Territory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And in addition to that you have some court fees? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How much would they amount to ? — A. The court fees ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. I don't know exactly. Q. Well, how much did they amount to last year ? — ^A. On account of the tie up which occurred on the 4th of March, and we were not allowed to use them, but my understanding is that we have about $100,000. By Senator Teller: Q. Of court fees ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Appropriated? — ^A. Yes, sir; but not expended. Q. Well, how much would that amount to for this year ? — ^A. That would give us, if we would spend it all, for this year about $250,000. Q. Would that be more than you need ? — A. No, sir. I have two of TOY assistants here with me, the supervisor of the Creek Nation, Mr. Caldwell and- the supervisor of the Cherokee Nation, Mr. Dread. Under our system we have a rule that when a school is established — before the establishment of a school in a neighborhood — the people 224 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. who desire to secure the school must get up a petition, showing how many children they have of school age, and which o.' them are of Indian blood, whether full blood, mixed, or white, and send that peti- tion to our supervisors. That is the procedure that is followed, and I think our supervisors can testify — they are here, and they can speak for themselves, but I think that they will testify when they come before you that there is upward of 100 of these petitions for the establishment of schools on file now. I mean that there is more than 100 of these petitions on file from each nation. Q. Have you established these schools? — A. No, sir; that is for the schools that have been petitioned for, and which we have been unable to grant on account of the want of funds. I don't know how it will be, but possibly it may be after January 1 we will find that we are able to establish a few more schools. By Senator Long : Q. For the support of these schools you get $150,000 from the National Treasury? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you got some out of the tribal school funds ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. About how much did you get out of the tribal school funds ? — A. About the same amount. Q. You got the same amount out of the tribal school funds that was appropriated by the nation — that is, the amounts derived from each source about equaled each other? — A. Yes, sir. Well, we got more than that, too. There is more than that belonging to the tribes, which is recognized as tribal school funds; but it is not all used for the pur- pose of maintaining the rural schools. A large proportion of the tribal school fimds is used in maintaining their boarding schools, to which you understand white children are not admitted. Q. Well, from what source are their school funds derived ? — A. In the Cherokee Nation it is derived entirely — I mean in the Choctaw Nation it is derived entirely from royalties on coal, and in the Chickasaw Nation the original arrangement between the Choctaw Nation and the Chickasaw Nation was that the Chickasaw Nation was to have one- fom-th of the coal royalties and the share that the Choctaws got was sufficient to maintain their schools, and in the Chickasaw Nation it furnishes about one-fourth of what is necessary. In the other na- tions, the Cherokee and Creek nations, the funds for the maintenance of their schools comes largely from the interest on invested funds which the United States Government holds in trust for these various tribes. That is where most of it comes from, but not all, for some of it comes from the proceeds of labor and royalties from coal and oil and gas, etc. By Senator Teller: Q. These sums will not be increased much. — A. Well, we are satis- fied that the appropriation of $150,000 and the surplus court fees that it will amount to about $250,000 a year, at any rate that is about what it will amount to this year; but the country is growing and develop- ing, and as the country grows and develops that means more children and more children mean more schools. By the Chairman : Q. In your statement, without being absolutely accurate in your figures, I assume that approximately they are correct ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In proportion to numbers, that is, the number of Indian chil- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 225 dren and the number of white children, the Indians are furnishing about their fair proportion of the expense of running these schools ? Is that right ? — A. Yes, sir. Senator Long. There are about 10,000 Indian children and about 42,000 white children? — A. Yes, sir. The whites have no fimd at all for educational purposes excepting this Government appropriation. Now in some cases again we have this rule; in some neighborhoods where the white people predominate, in order to get a teacher they club together voluntarily and offer to contribute from $5 to $10 a month to the teacher's salary. We can afford to pay a teacher $40 a month, but many teachers, particularly the ones they want, will want $45 or $50 a month, and as we can only pay the $40, the white people in the neigh- borhood will volimtarily contribute the deficiency, and that enables us to estabUsh the majority of the schools. The neighborhood contrib- utes a small amount toward the teacher's salary, and they build the schoolhouse and furnish the fuel and everything, such as seats and everything, and in the majority of them, as I stated, they contribute from $5 to $10 a month toward the teacher's salary, and considering the financial condition of the average white renter, I think that they are paying about as much as they could be expected to pay if the very little property which they have was subject to taxation. By the Chaieman : Q. From the very best information you have as to the number of children of white, Indian, and negro blood, how many children are there now in the Indian Territory — in the Five Civilized Nations — of school age 1 Of course I do not expect that you can state that with absolute accuracy, but approximately, how many are there without any school facilities? — A. About 100,000. Q. About 100,000 school children of white, Indian, and negro blood in the Five Civilized Nations who are without school facili- ties? — A. Yes, sir. Do you mean aside from the others? Q. Yes, sir, I mean how many children of all bloods, all ,told, are there in the Five Civilized Tribes, or in the Territory, with school facilities? — A. That is children who are not within reach of the schools that we are running ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, I presume in each nation our supervisors have from 75 to 100 petitions for the establishment of schools that we are unable to grant. Mr. Falwell, supervisor of the Creek and Seminole nations. We have 76 now. Mr. Benedict. I thought that was what it was. Senator Long. Just wait, gentlemen, one at a time. Mr. Falwell, what is the number? Mr. Falwell. I have one petition that I am unable to grant for each school that I have established. In other words, we are unable to grant more than half the applications. Senator Teller. How many schools have you established ? Mr. Falwell. I have established 180 schools. Senator Teller. Then you have left 180 petitions? Mr. Falwell. I have about 375 petitions for schools altogether, and I have been able to establish or grant about one-half of them. The Chairman. Well, Mr. Benedict, you may proceed with yom- statement. 226 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Benedict. These petitions on an average, I think, wiD repre- sent about 40 pupils, so I figure that perhaps, taking the Territory- through, there would be about 100 neighborhoods m each nation which we have not yet been able to reach. By the Chairman : Q. One hundred neighborhoods in all? — A. Yes, sir; that is in each nation. Q. Then you ought to have 100 more schools to afford reasonable school facilities ? — A. Yes, sir ; in each nation. You understand that is not for the whole Territory, but fdr each nation. Q. Yes, sir; I understand. — A. And each of these schools, well, taking them all together, would average about 40 pupils to the school, making about 4,000 children in each nation, and in the four nations it would be about 16,000, and including those in the Seminole country, it would make — well, somewhere from 16,000 to 18,000 children. Well, I'll change that estimate — I think, including the Seminoles, it would make somewhere from 18,000 to 20,000 children of school age who are as yet entirely out of reach of any school. Now by that I mean white children. Q. My question was not confined to whites alone. What I want to get at in the first place is the probable number of children of school age in the entire Indian Territory who are without school facilities, including them all, white, Indian, and colored. A. Well, there are about 160,000 white children and about 16,000 Indian children. Q. 160,000 white children? — A. Yes, sir; as near as we can get at it — that is, white children. We have not had any general census of the Territory since 1900, and that is as near as we can come to it. There has been a great influx of people here since 1900, and the num- ber of white school children has vastly increased, but what the actual numbers are we have no way of telliag. Q. That is an estimate? — A. Yes, sir; merely an estimate. There probably are more than that. By Senator Teller: Q. That estimate does not include the freedmen ? — ^A. No, sir. Q. How many of the freedmen are there ? — A. There are in the neigh-borhood of 10,000. The Chairman. Does that include the negroes that are not freed- men? — A. Yes, sir; citizens and noncitizens. Senator Teller. Now you have separate schools for these? — A. Yes, sir; we have separate schools for the negroes, but not for the Indians. The Indian children and the white children attend the same schools. By the Chairman : Q. How many children are attending these schools, or how many could attend them? — A. The schools that we have established? Q. Yes, sir ? — A. I would not undertake to state that exactly, but the statement that I will submit to you through the inspector will show that. Well, I believe I can give you that for the last year. Last year we had 10,849 Indians and 42,820 whites and 6,807 negroes. Q. Then you are able to provide now for about 70,000 children?— A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 227 Q. Out of 186,000 of school age? — A. Yes, sir. In other words, as I have stated in my written statement, which I have submitted to you, it will give you some idea of how the schools are located. This statement will show that there is 900 schools in the Territory, dis- tributed equally throughout the Territory, and that barely gives us one school to the township. Q. One school to the township ? — A. Yes, sir; one school for each 6 miles square, which is one school for each 36 square miles. That will give you some idea as to how thoroughly furnished we are with schools. We are doing as well as we can with the f"unds we have, but we could use a great deal more money. We are not complaining, for we recognize that Congress has been Hberal with us, but as I say we could use a great deal of money. We are thankful and grateful for what we have received. We think that with the $250,000, sup- plemented by the tribal school funds, we can get along very well. It IS not what it should be, but we might be worse off. By Senator Long : Q. That is what you expect to have for the next fiscal year? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, of course. Congress is not going to continue supporting the schools here after the State gets well started. That is something it will not do, for it is the duty of the State to look after its own schools system. — ^A. Well, I think, in view of the peculiar system or situa- tion down here, that Congress ought to do it, owing to the lack of taxable lands, and that is a situation which Congress created; there- fore we think that Congress should continue to afford relief for a condition that has been brought about through no fault or action of the people here. Q. So you beMeve that Congress should continue these appropria- tions? — A. Yes, sir; I most assuredly do, and should increase them. That is the only way that anything approaching an adequate school system can be maintained here. Congress should certainly maintain its appropriations, and increase them, until such time as the land may become taxable for school purposes. Ttlese restrictions are on the land, and the State can't do anything in the way of removing them. Q. Then, you think that it would be necessary to make the usual appropriation after this fiscal year? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And for the next fiscal year? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And continue making them? — ^A. Yes, sir; for the State can't appropriate all the revenue accruing to its school funds to maintain schools here, and the people of Oklahoma proper will not submit to be taxed for the purpose of maintaining schools here at this time. That is in Oklahoma proper^what is now Oklahoma. The people there won't consent to be taxed to meet a deficiency that arises in the Territory here on account of the lack of taxable land, and it would be unreasonable and unjust to expect them to do so, or to consent to an appropriation to this Territory of the entire revenue from their school funds. Now, there is the condition — a condition we are in nowise accountable for. Therefore, we believe that Congress should keep up this appropriation and increase it according to the growing require- ments of the Territory until such time as the restrictions shall be removed from sufficient land to enable sufficient funds to be raised by 228 PIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. taxation without confiscating the land through excessive taxation. I mean by this that until the time that there is enough land released for taxation to support the schools without oppressive or excessive .taxation, that Congress should supplement the grant from the State school fund with enough to provide a good coihmon school system ia all parts of the Territory, so that every child in it should be able to attend some school and live at its home at the same time. By the Chairman : Q. What would be the effect if this legislation should be cut off? — A. Well, it would be very calamitous, indeed. Its effect would be to exclude these 42,000 white children from the schools. Q. Under the present conditions, without this appropriation and aid to the schools in the country districts, there is no way by which a a white cliild can attend school? — A. None whatever. Q. All the schools have been conducted solely as Indian schools ? — A. Yes, sir; the only country schools which we have had have been the Indian tribal schools; but soon after I came to this country I began the plan of allowing the white children to attend these little Indian schools where they were not crowded by the Indians. We inaugurated the plan of allowing the white children to attend by paying the small fee of 50 cents a month — well, the fee that was paid hj white children for the privilege of attending these Indian schools varied all the way from 50 cents to $1 a month — or they were sup- posed to pay that amount — but some of them paid it and some of them did not pay it, and it was very hard on the teachers, for they were depending on these paj^ments for a part of their salary and they had to collect it. If they did not get it they were short just that amount. By Senator Teller : Q. What do you pay the teachers in your schools? — A. They receive from $40 to $50 a month. It varies according to location and circumstances. Q. What are your teachers ? What avocation in life do they follow before they become teachers ? — A. Two-thirds of them are farmers. Q. When are your schools closed? — A. In June. Now, I wish to say that soon after our schools are closed we have a summer normal, where we bring them together and instruct them for a month — and the classes. At the close of that normal we have our examinations — the annual examinat'ons. Q. What is the character of these examinations? — A. Well, our examinations are somewhat similar — well, just about the same as they are in the States. Q. Well, if they do not pass that examination, do you drop them out ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Senator Long. If they do not pass you drop them ; but if they do pass you give them a certificate? — A. Yes, sir; when we give out the posi- tions of school-teaching, we give the best positions to the teachers that have done the best work in the normal. The work that is done at the normal is very similar to the work that is done in the States- Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, or Kansas. I laiow something about that, tor, I was for eight years a county superintendent of education in FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ' 229 Kansas, and for two years I was State superintendent of that State, so I know the character of the work there, and our work is very similar to the work that is done in Kansas and the other States — so far as the general character of the work is concerned. By the Chairman: Q. What was the earliest date at which wliite children were ad- mitted to these country schools? — A. I came here on the 10th day of February, 1899. For sometime after I came here, as a rule, the Indians were opposed to allowing the white children to attend their schools. They seemed to be afraid of the whites — to fear that they would crowd their own children out of the schools — that seemed to be their first fear, and secondly, they feared that if the whites were permitted to attend their schools it would rec^uire the expenditure of tribal money; and for some time there was quite a good deal of prej- udice and opposition to it; but that gradually wore away. In a few neighborhoods even at that time, children were permitted to attend these schools, and there are some schools in the Territory which white children have been allowed to attend during the past seven years; and on the other hand, there are still a few schools where white children are not allowed to attend. Q. Where is it that the whites are not allowed to attend the Indian schools? — A. It is over here in what is known as the "Snake" country. You have heard of the "Snake" Indians — that is a name that is applied to them for the reason that they are almost all full bloods and they are opposed to everything almost that the Govern- ment wants. It appears to be sufhcient to set them against a propo- sition, if the Government want it, or they think it is wanted. They are opposed to everything the Government is doing. In fact there are a few neighborhoods in such localities where I don't think it would be quite safe to send white children to school. By Senator Teller: Q. In these neighborhoods do you keep up the schools? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you have control over them? — A. Yes, sir; if we were to send the white children to these schools they would take their children out. Q. The Indians would take their children out ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What do they teach there in these schools? — A. English. Q. Is that universal, to teach English in the schools? — A. Yes, sir; in all the schools English is taught. Outside of the Cherokee Nation nearly all of our teachers are white; but in the Cherokee Nation nearly half the teachers are of Cherokee blood, but the rnajority of the teachers that are called Indian, have some white blood in them — more or less — but they are all Cherokee citizens. By Senator Long: Q. I understand you to say that in all the schools they teach English? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So English is the only language taught in any of the schools ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the course of study? — A. Well, in these little rural schools, they teach reading, writing, arithmetic, grammar, geography, and during the last two years we have been teaching, with quite a marked degree of success, agriculture. They seem to take a pretty 230 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. lively interest in agriculture, and we have been teaching them some- thing about it. The Chairman. Do you teach them spelling also ? — A. Yes, sir; of course; but we have not yet begun teaching the simplified spelling. The people generally are showing quite a good deal of interest in edu- cational affairs — that is, the ones of Indian blood. Wliites always manifest a great deal of interest in educational facilities, and, as a rule, won't five in a neighborhood where their children can't get it. Senator Teller. I wish somebody would give us a statement as to what these incorporated towns are doing about educational matters or schools. For instance, you make a statement that there are six up- to-date school buildings here in Muskogee. Now, if we had specific and reliable information on that matter, it would very materially assist us when we should get to consider the appropriation bills. I make this suggestion because I am on the Committee on Appropria- tions, and without all this data and information I laiow just what Mad of opposition it would encounter. Some of the members of that com- nfittee are pretty good objectors, and I am a pretty good one myself sometimes, but I tell you this so you may know that it is not all plain sailing. Mr. Benedict. I can furnish that with a fair degree of accuracy. Senator Teller. Do the best you can. Mr. Benedict. In my position I have endeavored to collect all the statistics I could and make a statement of it to the committee. It is hard to get absolutely accurate statistics, for some of the public schools have been careless and don't keep complete records, but I have reasonably accurate information from all the larger towns, or nearly all of them, and that will be compiled and furnished to the committee. Senator Teller. Well, if you can furnish that it would be a good deal of help. We might hunt it up ourselves, but we have such a mul- tiplicity of business to attend to. While we could get it ourselves, I am sure that every member of the committee would appreciate it if you would see that it is done. Mr. Benedict. Well, gentlemen, I realize that, and if there is any- thing I can do for you, any information you want during your stay here or after you leave here, if you call on me for it, I would be glad to furnish you with any information on any subject you may desire; I will be only too glad to furnish it. If that is all, gentlemen, I wJll retire. The Chairman. Does any other member of the committee desire to question Mr. Benedict any further ? That is all, Mr. Benedict. STATEMENT OF MR. D. F. BEDD, STJPEBVISOK OF SCHOOLS IN THE CHEROKEE NATION. By Senator Teller : Q. What is your occupation? — A. Supervisor of the schools in the Cherokee Nation. What is the point generally that the committee wish to know ? Q. You have some petitions before jrou, I understand, for the estab- lishing of additional schools ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I would like to know, in the first place, how many schools you have, or are established under your jurisdiction? — A. I have 303 schools in operation to-day. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 231 Q. That is the number that is under your jurisdiction that are actually in operation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, how about your petitions ? — A. What petitions ? Q. Petitions for establishing new schools ? — A. I have 76 petitions that I have been unable to grant. By Senator Long : Q. Why? — A. Because of lack of funds. By Senator Teller : Q. Have you any idea how many children that represents? — A. These petitions give an enumeration of the pupils that will attend the school petitioned for, and in granting these petitions we take the ones that enumerate the most pupils. We have them tabulated in order of the number of pupils, commencing with the highest, and then if we have, say 10 more schools, that we can estab- lish, we go right down the list and take 10 of them in the order of the number of pupils ; so the number of pupils in the schools established is ditninishmg, or would diminish were it not that new petitions are coming in frequently. On account of granting the petitions for the larger number of pupils or children, we are now down in the list where the enumeration runs from 32 to 48. We go on the plan of doing, or trying to do- the greatest good to the greatest number, and so those communities that furnish us an enrollment of the greatest number of pupils, these are the petitions that are granted first. By Senator Long : Q. What do you require in the way of schoolhouses or facilities before you grant a petition ? — A. When an application comes in for a school we have a blank that is sent out from Superintendent Bene- dict's office — a blank that is prepared by the superintendent — that asks for the location of the school, giving the section and range, etc., fiving the exact location of the school, and giving the post-office, and escribes the house; it gives us the measurements of the house, its height, and other dimensions, and the number of windows in it, and how the house is furnished, desks, stoves, buckets, etc., and the loca- tion of three trustees and their names and post-offices ; the amount that the community is willing to contribute toward the support of the school. Q. What is that ? — A. The amount that the community is willing to contribute toward the maintenance of the school, and who they are, and then a list below of the — then a list of the patrons of the school with their names, and then following that is a list of the pupils that are naturally in that district, within a raidius of 3 miles from the proposed location of the school; the age of these pupils, and whether they are white, red, or black. All these statistics come up here to the office, and they are all properly recorded and the school is located upon a map, and in all sessions of the tribe boards and the supervisors, when we grant these petitions, we issue notice to the trustees stated in the blank I have described that the petition has been granted and that the school will be opened on a certam day, leaving it to them to notify the people in the district of the fact. By the Chairman : Q. You are supervisor of schools in the Cherokee Nation or tribe ? — A, Yes, sir. 232 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Who have you associated with you? — A. In performing my duties ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. I have the Cherokee tribal board, consisting of three people in that nation, and they are an efl&cient tribal board, too. Q. Of whom does that board consist — that is, who composes it ? — A. It consists of A. S. Wyly, O. H. B. Brewer, and Miss Carlotta Archer. These are the members of my board. Q. And are these persons elected by the Cherokee council? — A. Yes, sir. Now we work jointly or in conjunction in the matter of handling school matters. Does that answer the question? Q. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. Usually, then, these petitions for establishing schools come from neighborhoods that have already built their schoolhouses and have started a subscription toward maintaining a school which they are trying to maintain themselves in a way? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then it is an application coming from that neighborhood for aid from tbe Government to establish a school there? — ^A. Yes, sir; it is often the case. Frequently they will send in their petition and say that they will have a house up at such and such a time; but we never grant a petition until we know that the house is built — actually built and furnished. Of course there is a heavy correspondence going on all the time and we laiow they will proceed and build the house, for they would i}ot go to the trouble of doing what they do if they did not intend to build the house, so we are reasonably assured that they will build the house, but at the same time we don't grant the petition until we know the house is actually built and furnished. Now, of course, it does not take long to build a house down in this country, and it does not take much money to build them the way they do build them, for the average schoolhouse down here is a pretty crude affair. By Senator Teller : Q. What kind of houses are they? — A. Well, they are commonly what is called a box house — sealed — just an ordinary frame and sealed on the inside; no plaster or anything of that kind; and sometimes they are built of logs. They are very cheap and crude affairs. The furnishings are mostly home-made benches. Q. Benches without backs ? — A. No, sir; they have backs, but they are home-made affairs; but there is quite a good many of them that haven't any desks in front; some few of them haven't. Taken as a whole, they are very plain, but still they are sufficient for the simple needs of these people. I am speaking now of the general run of them, for they are not all alike. Some of them are more pretentious and have desks from regular furnishing companies — that is, they have regular manufacttu-ed desks. Some of the houses are log houses, but I mentioned that before. By Senator Long: Q. As supervisor, do you occasionally visit these schools after they are established ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is one of the duties of the supervisor to visit these schools and give them his personal supervision as often as possible. Q. And that you do ? — A. Yes, sir. Well, when I took charge of the schools in the Cherokee Nation, in order to become more perfectly ia FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 233 touch with these teachers — and I have 360 of these teachers — they were induced to come to the normal school held in the summer time so that we could come more and more in touch with them and exchange views, and to arrive at that end I took charge of the normal myself, teaching five classes daily in order to come in personal contact with the teachers; but I found that the clerical work of the oflBce, together with the time required by the boarding schools and seminaries and also an orphanage which we have to attend to, makes the work very heavy, and I regret to say that I don't have the time to devote to these schools in the riual districts as much of my time and supervision as I would like. I would like to be able to give it more supervision in the class room. However, I have personally visited 36 of these schools since the 3d of September, and lam through with my other work, and I trust that I will be able to find time to see all of the schools this year. / By Senator Teller: Q. Were you a teacher before you entered on this work? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long had you been teaching before entering on this work ? — A. Well, I will simply say that I have been a teacher all my life. I never did anything else and don't know anything else. I think I know that. Q. You know teaching? — A. Yes, sir; I ought to, for I have never done anything else. Q. Where were you from originally? — A. From Indiana. I was at the head of the schools in Plymouth, Ind., for fourteen years. Q. You speak of boarding schools? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there some of them down here ?^A. Yes, sir. Q. Where are they located ? — A. The Cherokee female seminary is located at Tahlequah, 35 miles east of here. This is a very fine beauti- ful building located on a most beautiful site, and I have 166 girls in that school. I wish you gelitlemen could visit it. I have a faculty there that I am proud of. It would grace any academy anywhere. The nature of the work in the class rooms there is most commendable and it is a pleasure to go through it. I wish you could go out and see that school from start to finish. I am proud of it, and prouder still to say that in all respects it justifies the pride I feel in it. It is proud of itself. Q. Well, we can not go and see it, but we are gratified to hear your opinions of it. — A. I trust that you will read a portion at least of the report for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1906, which has a description. Q. What is the extent of your course there ? — A. It is a twelve-year course — about the same extent of curriculum as you would find in the average high school — in the big high schools. The high school in a town of, say, three thousand, would generally take the pupils over a course of two years in Latin, and we do that — sometimes it is three years, and first, second, and third, and plane and solid geometry, and so on. We have a night school of domestic science in which children are taught to cook, bake, etc., and we have a night industrial school there also in which the pupils are taught to sew and make their own clothing. That is very much like the girls' schools in the East. Q. It is run just about as the girls' schools are run? — A. Yes, sir; it is about the same thing. It is a good thing; a school that I am very proud of indeed. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 16 234 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Is that school attended solely by Indians? — A. Yes, sir; it is open only to Cherokees, and is attended solely by them. Q. It is only open to Cherokees? — A. Yes, sir; it is not open to whites nor to freedmen. By Senator Teller: Q. That school has been in existence a number of years, has it not? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that school is under your supervision? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You spoke about having some other duties? — ^A. Yes, sir; I have a brother institution. Q. What is that ? — A. The Cherokee male institute. That is a simi- lar institution located at Tahlequah also. That institution to-day has 122 boys in it, and the course of study is about the same to a consider- able extent as in the other, with this difiference, that in the male insti- tution wepay a great deal of attention to the industrial branch of edu- cation. We teach them the elements of farming, and there is now on foot a plan to give them an elementary training in manual training. Q. And the appropriation made by Congress for the support of schools is not used in these schools? — A. No, sir; not a dollar. They are supported solely from the Cherokee school funds. Q. What will become of these schools when the State is organ- ized? — A. Well, that is a very grave question. It is a question that merits the gravest consideration. These schools are very dear to these Indian people. They are very proud of them, and with reason, for they are institutions that any people might be proud of, and what is to become of them under the State is a question of great concern. I will say without fear of contradiction from any source that these schools have exercised a very wonderful and beneficial influence on the character of the Cherokee Nation and its citizen- ship. These children have gone out from these institutions for years, and they are the fathers and mothers of the children now attending, and in many instances the grandfathers and grand- mothers of children now attending these institutions; so in many cases we find that for three generations they have studied within their walls, and is it any wonder that they should become so dear and held in such esteem by these people? A great many people, whites as well as Indians, would like to see these schools continued just about as they are now, and if there is any way by which that can be done I hope that it will be put in operation, for, I say it confi- dently, I can not think of any thing worse in an educational way for these people than the destruction of these schools as such. Q. You believe that they should be continued as they are?— A. Yes, sir. Q. As Indian schools? — ^A. Yes, sir; continued as Cherokee schools. Q. Is there not a provision of the law regarding them? — ^A. It is provided in the act that the Secretary of the Interior may dispose of all Government property; but as far as the manner in which that is to be done is concerned it is not specifically determined. Q. That authorization to dispose of all public buildings would include these school buildings? — A. Yes, sir; unquestionably. Q. But the Government would have no control over the rund?— A. Yes, sir. The time when they are to be sold is not specified. That is something that is left to the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 235 Q. Are there any other schools; and if so, what are they and where are they located? — ^A. Yes, sir; we have a freedman colored school that is located 5 miles out of Tahlequah. It is a very com- modious building. We have in there to-day 43 negro boys and girls. Q. Of what age are they? — A. Of course their ages vary. We take what we call "primaries" first. We start to teaching down in the third grade in that institution now, taking them through algebra and plane geometry. They are not able to do the high school work so thoroughly as in these other institutions I described to you — • the male and female seminaries. Q. Do you prepare them there for teaching? — A. Well, we graduate them from these schools in annual pommencements and we admonish them to attend our normals. We give very little time there for professional training. We are now receiving a great many teachers from the States down here, and we have a good many teachers right here who graduated right here into the ranks of the teachers. We can, with the facilities we have here, graduate as good teachers for the work they have to do as can be found anywhere. Now, I will say this, that while we have a good many trained and proficient teachers here there is a good many teachers that are not so well prepared. Q. What are the individual expenses of the students at these insti- tutions of learning? — A. The individual expenses of a student at one of these institutions is simply the nominal price paid into the general fund, which comes back to the fund through the Indian agent. It is not used there at all. It is 15 a month for board. The old Cherokee laws — the old Cherokees had these laws and they admitted these pupils as boarding pupils. Under the old law it was permitted that so many pupils could attend there if they would make affidavit that they could not pay even that ; they were permitted to attend free of cost. That was under the old Cherokee law ; but under these circum- stances they were permitted — they were expected to work in the din- ing room and in the gardens and fields, etc. — do any work that was required of them, and if they did that they were permitted under the old laws to attend without the payment of anything in money. In the female seminaries we continue that yet. There is now in that institution between forty and fifty pupils who can't pay anything, and so they get their tuition entirely free. Q. These are Indians ? — A. Yes, sir; they are all Indian full bloods. Q. They do what work they can in lieu of money? — A. Yes, sir. I wish, gentlemen, that you could see our schools there. They are something that we are very proud of, whites as well as Indians. Q. I wish we could, but it is out of the question. Nothing would please me more than to look over them, but our time is so limited and we have so much to do we can not consider it. — A. I am very sorry that you can't. It would be an object lesson of the greatest value to you m showing you what these people are capable of doing. I am becom- ing very much attached to these people. Q. Now, in addition to these primaries in these schools, there is a number who pay $5 per month board ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Does that include tuition?— A. Yes, sir. Now you understand that that 15 we have nothing to do with it at all. Q. Well, what is done with it? — A. I don't know what is done with it. 236 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Benedict. That is paid over to the Indian agent and goes to the credit of the Cherokee Nation. Senator Long. It does not go back to the school fund? Mr. Benedict. No, sir. ; By Senator Long: Q. Where is your fourth boarding school ? — ^A. That is 5 miles east of Tahlequah, and it is called the Cherokee Orphanage. This insti- tution is supported out of the funds of the Cherokee people, or out of the interest derived from the invested funds of the nation, known as the Cherokee orphan fund. We have now about 85 or 86 boys and girls in that institution. Q. What is the character of the work done in that institution in the way of education? — A. That work runs up to about the eighth grade of the work that is done or found in the schools of the ordinary town. Q. Taking your statement that the Cherokees are very fond of these institutions, both from the standpoint of sentiment and of a knowledge of their practical utility, the only way they could retain them would be to acquire them by purchase if they are sold by the Secretary of the Interior and run them as private institutions? — A. I have never given that matter very much thought, gentlemen; but it does seem to me taking into consideration the purely beneficent work they have done, the manner in which they are run, and the pur- pose for which they are run and maintained, both now and in the past, it does seem to me, gentlemen, that some way ought to be de- vised and could be devised so that these people could be allowed to keep these institutions, which I am sincere in saying I believe have in the past made more for the uplifting of this people than any other influence within their borders. I think it little less than a shame that they can't be spared and left to these simple people just as they are. There is nothing in their present or their past that can be looked to but what brings a feeling of pride to these.people who know and feel that in their own way they had worked out this problem of giving the unfortunate and helpless, as well as the ones not so situated, a chance to get an education there which they could get in no other way; and so I say it is no less than a shame that these institutions be taken away from them. It is not enough to run them as private institutions. Private institutions will never do what these have done; they will never occupy the. same place in the minds of this people, and could not be maintained anyway unless amply endowed, now that the endowment of the people who have maintained them in the past is taken away from them. I don't believe that State could or would consent to operate them as they have been run; so I say again that some plan ought to be devised right down in Wash- ington whereby it could be done. It is idle to do anything out here, for there is where it is finally done. By Senator Teller : Q. That is all very well. You have not -had as much experience in and about Washington as I have had, and a thing that can be figured out here to a mathematical demonstration will not work out the same way there at all. Demonstrations here are not demonstra- tions there, and while I have often thought that the other fellows were wrong, I could not convince them; they would stick to their riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 237 demonstration, and they'd get enough to think as they did or see it as they did to out vote me. Now have you not some plan to suggest ? Let's hear it if you have. It won't do any harm. — ^A. Well, I have thought of it this way, that instead of selling those instutions and taking the money and turning it over to the new State — ^for this money would be but a trifle and absolutely would not be thought of in that connection — that instead of selling these buildings, turn them over to some trustees or some one, with the fund that matinains them kept intact; have the whole thing held inviolate for the main- tenance of these institutions. The Government can do it; the Sec- retary can do it; the Department can do it; but, however it is managed, be sure and keep and maintain and run them as strictly Cherokee schools, just as they have been in the past. It will be a long time before a great naany of these full bloods that we have down here will consent to mingle and pass along with this great amalga- mated race that we will have down here; so my idea is to keep it and run it as an Indian school. By Senator Long: Q. Would it not be better to have these schools belong to the State and be open to all classes of people ? In other words, do you not think that in the long run it would be better for the Indians if they had to associate with the white boys and girls? — A. Yes, sir; if you could get them to do it, but I fear that they won't consent to do it. Senator Teller. Speaking for myself solely, I have no hesitation in saying that I think the provision of the bill to sell is a very absurd provision. Mr. Benedict. I think the law says that they shall be continued under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior until the new State is formed and is ready to take charge of all the children's edu- cation, and until that time comes he may sell them; but I understand that he has the power, without legislation, to contuiue them indefinitely. Senator Teller. He can not continue them as special schools ? Mr. Benedict. No, sir; but he can continue them as they are now, and if the State should take them over we would lose the benefit of the tribal funds. Senator Teller. Well, the tribal funds will cease when they get a State here. Mr. Redd. No, sir; the State won't afl^ect the fund. Q. The organization as a tribe has entirely disappeared, has it not? — A. Yes, sir; but that would not affect this matter, for the .tribal funds are absolutely in the hands of the Secretary of the Interior. The schools and the school funds are absolutely in his hands with authority to conduct them just as long as he pleases or as long as he thinks they are needed. Q. The power and authority to conduct schools ought to be lodged in the hands of the people, and not in the hands of some man in Washington. I have had enough experience in schools to know that otherwise they can not be a success for any long time. Something is sure to go wrong. — A. I agree with you there, too. Senator Teller. I have had some experience at school-teaching myself in my time, and I know what I am talking about. You can depend on this, that you will never have an effective school system until the people take charge of it for themselves, and whether or not 238 PIVE CIViLIZEt) TRIBES. it is effective will depend entirely on the wishes of the people them- selves. They are the only power that can determine that question. So it resolves itself down to this — it all depends on the wishes and desires of the people. You have to have the people back of schools. Mr. Benedict, i realize that; but, just as Mr. Kedd says, these institutions are the pride of the Cherokee Nation, and it does seem to me that they should be allowed to retain these things that are so dear to them. Senator Teller. It is a perplexing problem and appeals to the sympathetic side of a person, but I do not see any way out of it. There is one thing sure, however, and that is that the Cherokees ought to be strong enough in the new State to at least patronize them, if nothing more. It is a matter that we will look into and it is possible that the law as it now exists will be changed. It is possible, I say, but by no means certain that the law will be changed. As Mr. Redd has said, the amount coming from the sale of these buildings is so trifling that I do not think anyone will care much about it. Mr. Redd. It is trifling to the Government, but it is not trifling to these people out here, for there is more than the mere money cost or value of the matter in it to them. Senator Beandegee. What did you say the length of the course was? Mr. Redd. In the female academy or seminary it is a twelve-year course. Q. What are the age limits? — A. Under the old Cherokee law we did not adhere to the age limit, but as the schools are run now under the control of the superintendent and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs it linaits the age of students or pupils to between 6 and 21. If, however, a boy and girl has been in regular attendance at the school and can't complete the course, say^ until they are 23, they are permitted to attend the school for the purpose of finishing the course, until they are 23 years of age. Q. While they are permitted to do that they do not have to remain and complete the course, for they can retire at any time they have a mind to, can they not ? — A. Oh, yes, of course they can quit any time. Q. Is the rule the same in the girls' school as in the boys' school?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, what proportion of the boys that attend this school are of Indian blood — that is, full-blood Indians ? — A. That is in the boys' academy that I have described? Q. Yes. — A. I think that out of 122 boys that are in attendance there now. I don't believe that there are more than 20 that are full- blood Cherokees. Q. Well, about what proportion, as near as you can form an opin- ion, would be of more than half blood — that is, more than one-naif Indian blood? — A. Well, I don't know as I can answer that definitely, but if you want my opinion Q. That is what I asked for, for I do not suppose you could tell exactly? — ^A. I will say probably one-half. Mr. Benedict. Did you say more than half? Mr. Redd. No, sir. Mr. Benedict. More than half the children in the school are what? Mr. Redd. More than half the children in the school are less than half blood. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 239 By Senator Beandegee : Q. Well, that is the case with the whole tribe is it not — more than half of them are less than half-blood Indians? — A. Yes, sir; in the Cherokee Nation I think that is correct. Q. I will ask you this, in the country schools do the boys and girls attend the same classes? — A. Yes, sir; the Indian boys and girls attend the same classes. Q. Have you any idea of the number of boys, or proportion of the boys as compared with the girls that attend these schools ? — A. Well, I could not say exactly. I don't believe I could make anything approximating an accurate answer in regard to that, however, it is all in my report and you gentlemen will have that report. I expect that there is more boys than girls, but I won't say. My report will show how that is. Q. Are there more Indian girls that attend the public schools than boys? — A. Well, now as to that I could not say. I can't state what the positive fact is. The report will show that, too. I will say offhand, though, that I beheve they are just about equal. Q. Is there any age Hmit there as to how young they can attend the schools? — ^A. No, sir; but of course they can't come until they are old enough to learn and understand. We don't want them under 6. Q. Is there any age limit as to how old they shall be? — A. No, sir; we don't enforce that. They can come at any age as long as they want to learn. Mr. Benedict. We have boys and girls that are grown men and women, who are just learning to read and write. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Have you any idea of the average age of the boys and girls — the pupils in these country schools — at the time when they finish their studies in these schools ? Mr. Redd. Well, the system of grading them is not definitely worked out as far as the ages are concerned; but I will say that it is about the same as it is in the schools in the States. There would not be much difference as far as that is concerned. I think if anything the age is perhaps a little greater here than in the States. Senator Tellee. That means that they would be older? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. These four schools that you have referred to, of the higher grade, are attended only by Cherokee Indians? Is that right? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Only Cherokees attend them — the other tribes don't send their children there? — A. No, sir; only Cherokees attend. Q. There is no provision for that ? — A. No, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. Do the other tribes have schools of this character? — A. Yes, sir; they have their own boarding schools. Q. I would like you to have that in your report. Mr, Benedict. Yes; I have all these things in my report. It is comprehensive, and I think will give you all the data and information you are seeking. Senator Teller. I have been complaining for several years that we do not look after these matters close enough. That is all. 240 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. STATEMENT OF MR. WALTER EALWELL, StrPEBVISOR OP SCHOOLS FOR THE CREEK AND SEMINOLE NATIONS. By Senator Long: Q. What is your post-ofBce address? — A. Muskogee. Q. And what is your business? — A. I am supervisor of schools in the Creek and Seminole nations. By the Chaieman : Q. You may proceed. — A. Is there any questions you desire to ask me? Q. Just proceed and tell us about your work and the condition of educational matters in the nations you represent. I believe you said So a are supervisor in the Creek and Semmole nations? — A. Yes, sir. ■ow, gentlemen, I believe there is one misconception which I want to right if I can, and that is in regard to the relative amount of money spent from the Indian funds and from the Congressional fund. I believe it has been stated that these funds are about equal, and that there are so many boarding schools maintained where the board of the pr.pil is paid or the pupil is maintained and the total expenses of the schools are paid from the Indian funds, and that these expenses con- stime so much of the Indian fi nds that it leaves a very small portion to be expended in the rural district schools. Now, in the Creek Nation we have ten boarding schools. Q. How many of these boarding schools did you say there were ? — ^A. In the Creek Nation, ten of them. Q. Are they in the towns ? — ^A. In or near the towns. Q. Are they maintained exclusively for the Indian children? — ^A. Seven of them are maintained exclusively for the Indian children and three of them exclusively for the negro citizen children. Now, these ten schools require annually an expenditure of about 170,000 out of an Indian fund of about $83,000 in the Creek Nation and about $23,000 in the Seminole Nation. There are two boarding schools in the Seminole Nation and ten in the Creek Nation, and these boarding schools consume about 85 per cent of the tribal funds. Now, I expect to use somewhere about $80,000 of the Congressional fund and the surplus Indian funds throughout the rural districts, and this leaves only between $9,000 and $10,000 that is available for this purpose out of the Creek fund. This is all of the Creek school fund that we would be allowed to use in the Creek Nation. Q. That is in the country schools ? — A. Yes, sir. I want to make this explanation, for I was afraid that you had the wrong impression. Q. I did have a wrong impression, and for one I am very glad to be corrected. — ^A. Now, there is one thing I want to bring up at this time. ' I have two orphanages. One is a colored orphanage on the old agency hill, and if the day was clear you could see it fromhere, out of these windows over in that direction, and an Indian orphan home at Okomulgee. Now, these children are maintained there in these orphanages and clothed, educated, and fed, and they each hold an allotment, and they have Indian guardians appointed to look tfter their affairs, and it is absolutely true the most that I have ever heard of any of them getting from their allotments is a bunch of bananas or perhaps that much candy — say, something that would cost about 10 cents — or perhaps their guardian will come in and take FIVE CrVILIZBD TRIBES. 241 them to the street fair or something like that. That is an absolute fact that notwithstanding the fact that they hold allotments they get absolutely nothing out of them. Some of these orphans hold allot- ments, too, that are very fine and the rentals collected are reasonable. Now, I think that some provision ought to be devised by which these chUdren would get something out of their allotments to pay at least a part of the cost of keeping them. Q. I think so, too. If that condition exists, it is all wrong. — A. Well, it exists all right. Q. Who is the guardian? — ^A. There are different guardians for different wards, but usually it is some Indian relative. They get the profit out of the allotment and don't turn over any of the profits. I am satisfied that if these allotments were managed by an honest, capable person that sufficient would be got out of them to maintain the majority of these orphans and thus relieve the fund of the bur- den of caring for them in the way of feeding and clothing them. Q. Does not the guardian give bonds? — ^A. I don't know whether he does or not; at least the bond he gives is a very uncertain quantity. That is a matter that ought to be looked after, and I thought I would call your attention to it. J^. Who accepts these bonds? — A. The United States court. I think they give bonds in a manner, but their value is uncertain. I think they have a habit of giving or making bonds among themselves, one for another. The Indians have this .all among themselves, and what is everybody's business turns out to be nobody's business, and nobody has taken the pains to ask the court to see to it that good guardians are appointed and good bonds taken. Q. Has not the court ever taken the trouble to see that these guardianships are carried out according to the spirit and intent of the law ? — ^A. If some one ask the court to do so it will to the best of its ability, but otherwise I don't believe the court pays any attention to it. It is just a formal matter and is treated as such. There is a referee whose duty it is to investigate the matter and report on it, too, but that is a merely formal matter or is treated as such, but in the majority of cases I believe there is no guardian formally appointed at all. The child is helpless, is in the orphanage, and usually an uncle or cousin or somebody related to the orphan assumes to act as guardian, and there is no legal guardian appointed. I am stating the conditions to you and you can arrive at your own conclusions. Q. Do you think these schools are good things and ought to be maintained? — A. Yes, sir; I think they are good things and ought to be maintained indefinitely. Yes, sir; I certainly do think they should be maintained indefinitely, because their need is great. These chil- dren are helpfess, and God alone knows what their fate would be if it were not for these institutions. There is a set of children, particularly Indian orphan children, who are less able to care for their allotment than even the ordinary Indian child, because it is fair to assume that a body of orphan Indian children are more susceptible to the ills of life than any body of children of similar age and capacity whose parents are living and in a position to advise them. Now these children de- serve our consideration more than any other class of children, and so I believe that these two schools should be maintained indefinitely. Now, to do this and get the best out of the situation there is in it, I 242 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. believe the whole thing should be turned over to the superintendent and that he should be given a sufficient number of capable assistants, so as to make his administration efficient in every respect, and that these allotments should be turned over to him as long as the children are in the schools, so that he may manage them and get the revenue from them and see that it is applied toward the payment of the expense of maintaining these children, and at the end of their terms in the schools the surplus profit accruing from their allotments, if there is any, turned over to them. I believe that under a system of that kiad the schools could be maintained on nearly a basis of no cost to the fund and the pupils' allotment be saved and improved in a great measure and the general condition of the pupil made better, because he could see for himself what an intelligent use of his allotment had done for him and how it could be made to yield a profit for him besides paying for his schooling. As things are run now he does not get any benefit from it, either mental or financial. Q. How are these schools managed — that is, what is the method of their management? — A. Well, those are under contract the same as any other boarding schools. We receive bids and award contracts to individuals who agree to maintain them for so much per pupil per quarter, and out of the Indian fund Mr. Benedict pays the cost. Q. It seems to be a fact that many of these Indian pupils would be self-sustaining in these schools if their assets were properly managed or administered. That being the fact, there is an evident lack of good management somewhere. Now, who is it looks after the payment of these pupils out of the school fund? For instance, some one has the fund to administer ? — ^A. Well, there is no fund of the orphans ; every- thing is furnished to them. Q. Free?— A. Yes, sir. Q. That is what I understood, but I understand further that the orphans go to that school — take the case of one individual orphan. He goes to that school and he has an allotment, and whatever revenue comes from that allotment is supposed to go to the support of that pupil in that school. Is that not correct ? — A. No, sir. Q. I was mistaken then? — A. Yes, sir. He has an allotment, but the way it is managed now there is no revenue from it. It is absolutely unproductive as far as concerns the orphan getting anything out of it. The guardian gets what comes out of it and keeps it. By Mr. Teller: Q. Who does pay for the support of these orphan schools ? — A. The Creek Nation pays for the ones in the Creek Nation and in the Seminole Nation it is paid out of the funds of the Seminole Nation. By the Chairman : Q. And these men who have charge of the allotments of the pupils, I understand you to say, only buy for their wards now and then some little thing. Is that it ? — ^A. I said that they did not buy them anything, and I mean what I say. They don't even buy them a book or a pair of shoes or anything at all. Q. They do not buy them anything at all? — A. That is just what I mean, that they don't provide anythmg at all. FIVE CIVILIZED TElBES. 243 By Senator Teller : Q. Perhaps they turn over what belongs to the pupil to the Creek authorities? — ^A. No, sir. Q. It is incredible that such a condition should exist. — ^A. Well, it does exist right here. Q. You are sure of that? — ^A. Absolutely sure. I never heard of one of them spending more than a dime or so on one of them, and I never heard of their turning anything over to anybody for one of them. I have called for a report of the superintendent of the colored orphan home and a report from the superintendent of the Creek orphan home, and I have asked them to mvestigate the matter and see what was or is done with these allotments, and in each case I have a report which shows that the child received nothing, absolutely noth- ing from its allotment. By the Chairman : Q. If there was sufficient to support the child, would it be made from the allotment of the child ? — ^A. From the tribe. Q. Then it is not the school that is a cause of complaint — ^you are not making any complaint against the school as a school, but you are complaining against the management, or rather the lack of proper management, of the allotments of the pupils in these institutions ? — ^A. Yes, sir; that is it. Q. It is simply the way affairs are managed as between the guar- dian and the child that you are calhng attention to ? — ^A. Yes, sir. I wish to say, however, that if these schools were discontinued, run as they are, it would be a calamity to these people. I believe that these schools should be continued even after the other schools are discon- tinued, for we are under more obligations to these people than to any other in the Creek Nation. I believe, in fact, that with a proper man- agement of these allotments that these schools can be placed on a self-sustaining basis in this country. STATEMENT OF MR. M. li. MOTT, ATTORNEY FOE. CREEK NATION. By the Chairman : Q. Where do you reside? — A. At Muskogee. Q. You may proceed with your statement. Mr. MoTT. If you will allow me, I will state that I am the attorney for the Creek Nation. I wish to state in regard to this guardianship matter at this point that all the full-blood Indians are bitterly opposed to the appointment of guardians for their children, and the chiefs have made every effort to get that practice stopped or have it "regulated, and we have taken action in the tribal councils and tried to obtain results, for they think that they can manage it among themselves. So, as I say, they are bitterly opposed to the whole system of guardian- ship and say that they won't have it and won't pay the fees. That was a matter that was discussed before the last council of the tribe. I see Judge Lawrence here, and I will say that I have discussed the matter with him and it was suggested that we get some substantial banking institution or trust company, something that had substantiality and respectability back of it, to make these bonds under a contract to make the bonds for guardianship of these very children whose cases have been cited here, and it was proposed to the council to do that, 244 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. and this institution would advance all the fees for doing so, and the council declined to take any action. They think that they should act as guardians themselves, and that it should not be necessary to pay any fees to anybody for doing so. Now, those of the Creeks who can't speak the English language are very anxious to have it attended to, and the whole nation is very anxious that Congress should take action. We presented this matter to Congress last winter, and the matter was reported to the Interior Department from the Department of Justice, and in the advice or recommendations of the Department of Justice we were advised that Congress would not pass any special legis- lation on this matter touching the guardianship of infants or minors. By the Chaieman : Q. You say the people whom you represent object to the paying of fees; is that because the fees are large or small? — A. They think they are too large. It requires a trust company on the bond, and the fees are quite large and they think consume too much of the revenue of an ordinary allotment. Q. So they object to paying these fees? — A. Yes, sir; they say they are too large and they haven't the money with which to pay them. Of course the fees would come out of the proceeds of the allotment, but they have to be paid in advance of the receipt of anything from the allotment, and that is what they particularly object to — paying them ia advance, and they haven't got the money to advance. This fee is an annual one, for the bond has to be made annually, and it amounts to a tax of just that much on the allotment, and this and the other fees accruing to an administration down here are a very serious tax and drain on the income from the average allotment. Now the making of a contract with a good, reliable banking institution to attend to this business for them would materially cut down these fees and is the best course for these people to pursue, but it is hard to make them see that it is the best course and the only way that these estates can be admin- istered while waiting for such action as may be taken by Congress. But they bitterly protest and object to having some one else act as guardian for their children, particularly to a white man acting, and they won't take the steps that are necessary to qualify them to act. They think that every man should have the right to control the affairs of his own minor child. Senator Teller. Well, they are right in that. Mr. MoTT. They can't speak the English language themselves and they don't want to do these things. They are full bloods and they can't understand the wliite man's ways and don't want to understand them, I guess. Some of them speak broken English, but the Indian who speaks this broken English knows no more about the proper inter- pretation of the English language and what it means than does the Indianwho can't speak it at all. I thought it would be well to make this explanation here. Mr. Walter Falwell. Is there any question you gentlemen wish to ask me ? By Mr. Teller: Q. You say there are 10 boarding schools ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Seven for the Creeks and three for the colored people ? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 245 Q. I think you also gave us the boarding schools in the Seniinole Nation, being 2 in number? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Making 12 in all? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now tell us what these schools do ? — A. These schools are not as expensive as the schools that Mr. Redd spoke to you about in the Cherokee Nation, at Talequah. They haven't as extensive a curricu- lum as the Cherokee schools. We only go to about the eighth grade in ours. We have one school at Eurala called the "Orphan High School," and the pupils that attend that school are pupils that have attended schools elsewhere in the Creek Nation. Although imder a new organization beginning the first of this fiscal year there is an arrangement under which all the boarding schools are placed under a direct and uniform system; there is no distinction between them. Now, taking all the children, we have about a thousand, or nearly a thousand, children in the boarding schools of the Creek Nation this year, while in the Seminole Nation I think there are about 150. I say "about," for I only know of one school. That is the Mensekey School of the Seminole Nation, which is under our direct supervision at the present time. The Ema Haka School is another boarding school, and that is a female academy, the Mensekey School being a boy's academy. This academy has not come under our control, because the tribal authorities of the Seminole Nation have resisted the orders of the Secretary of the Interior in the matter of turning over their educational institutions, and I don't know what the enrollment is there, but the enrollment in the Mensekey School was, in the month of September 84. That is a boys' school. I can't give you any information about the girls' school, because I have not assumed actual, supervision over that yet. I think -I shall do so soon, but I don't know how soon or under what circumstances. We have at any rate here in the Creek and Seminole nations, I am satisfied, at least 1,150 pupils in the boarding schools alone, and they are all maintained there without any outlay or expense to their parents except for clothing. In the Creek Orphan Home and the Seminole Orphan Home everything, including the clothing, is fur- nished. In all the other schools of the Creek Nation all the expenses are paid by the nation excepting the clothing. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Are these schools open to everybody on these conditions? — A. Yes, sir; to everybody citizens of the nation. They are open to any member of the tribe. Now, in the Creek Nation we have seven schools open solely to Indians of the Creek Nation, and three schools open to the freedmen of the Creek Nation. Q. They are freely open to all such with the necessary qualifications as to blood or lineage ? — A. Yes, sir. Now, on the other hand, in the Seminole Nation the schools are mixed. They are open to both negro and Indian. There is about 20 per cent negro and 80 per cent Indian attending at these schools. These buildings are fine ones and' liberally furnished — in fact they are the finest buildings I know of in the Territory outside of the female seminary at Tahlequah. _ They are all steam heated, with hot and cold water in every room inthe houses, and elegantly furnished. They are standing out alone in a fine situation about 5 miles from the town. They are fine buildings and would be a credit to any community. 246 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. What about the faculties? — A. Well, the faculty at Mensekey is a very fine faculty, and they are at present using a little manual training there. In the Creek schools the faculties are supplied in the maimer that Mr. Redd spoke of. They have about the same curricu- lum and the same course of training, and the teachers are taken from the ones having the best standing who have attended and passed the examination at the teachers' normal. We are just now introducing manual training into three of the schools in the Creek Nation. During the summer I induced three of the teachers to go to the State normal — I should say to the State manual training school at Pittsburg, Kans. — and take a course in special manual training, and in these schools over which they preside we have introduced a course in manual train- ing, and we have placed about a hundred dollars worth of tools there for the use of the pupils in doing the work. Q. Of what does this manual training consist? — A. Well, wood- work and general carpenter work, showing the child how to make a perfect joint, and showing him how to square a piece of irregular tim- ber — in short, showing him how to do the things that would probably be most useful to him, so that when he leaves the school and goes to his allotment and he wants to do something he will know how to do it. For instance, if he wants to build a chicken house or a barn or a house for himself even, he will have some idea of how to go about it and do it. We don't attempt to give him any elaborate training, but just simply what is necessary to show him how to do the things that a man is ordinarily called on. to do about a farm. Q. If he wants to build a fence or anything he will have some idea of how to go about it ? — A. Yes, sir. I am optimistic. I am expecting great things frona this manual training school. I firmly believe that they are as much or more in need of that training than they are of the ordinary school training. At any rate I am going to put in some of the hardest licks this year that I can put in to give it a fair trial and see what comes of it, and if it is satisfactory I will try and get it estabhshed in all the schools, for I am convinced that it is the thing to do and that in the end it will prove of more value to these people than an ordinary education would be to them. If it works out all right, I'll try my best to get it established in all the schools of the Creek and Seminole nations next year, because I believe it is some- thing that they need, for they can use it every day in their lives. It is something the people need. The reason they haven't better houses and barns and improvements of all kinds is more because they don't. know how to make them than anything else. You .will see the neces- sity for this if you drive around over the country. If you travel around as I have, you would readily see what a benefit they are going to receive from manual training. Is there any other question you wish to ask me, gentlemen? The Chairman. You have covered the ground very thoroughly, and I am sure what you have said has been instructive to all of us. I have not anything more to ask you, and I do not think any other member of the committee has. ^ FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 247 STATEMENT OF CHEESIE MCINTOSH, TRIBAI, SUPERINTENDENT CREEK SCHOOLS. My name is Cheesie Mcintosh, and my post-office address is Che- cotah, Ind. T., and my official title is tribal superintendent of the Creek schools. By the Chairman: Q. And what is your nationality or blood? — A. I am a Creek citizen Indian. I just wanted to say, gentlemen, that I fully indorse the request of Mr. Benedict and the supervisors for an appropriation of $250,000 to further aid in the establishment of schools and the devel- opment of the educational facilities of the Indian Terptory. I fully indorse Mr. Falwell's idea that the Creek Orphan Home and the Creek Colored Orphan Home, that the inmates of these institutions should be placed m the charge of an administrator or some other per- son capable of an honest administration of their estates and account- ing therefor, such person or administration being given full charge of all the land or allotments or effects of such orphans, to the end that an income may be secured from their allotments ; for I believe if this is done that in this way the pupils in these institutions will be able to secure an income that will pay their expenses in these institutions and the institutions be made self-sustaining, and in this way be sustained indefinitely in the future. I would recommend that after statehood is permanently estab- lished, and the schools firmly established and in rtmning order, that the Indian appropriation for schools be discontinued for that purpose and paid out per capita to the citizens of the Creek Nation. That is all on the school question. I would like to suggest that, as the law now stahds in this country, when a deceased child dies it is not known what kind of an estate the father or mother of that child has in the dead child's allotment. It might be a life estate or it might be an estate absolute. No one knows what the estate is. No test case has been brought in the United States court, and it is therefore an undetermined question. I think that Congress, through the medium of about half a dozen words in the Indian appropriation bill, could state or make the law so plain that we would know whether that inheritance is an absolute inheritance or only a life estate. As it now stands, if an Indian child dies without issue, and he is approached for the sale of this land, he don't know what to do or what he can do. If he is a mixed-blood Indian, he can sell that land under the law as it stands at the present time. If the Indian tries to sell and approaches a buyer and states the facts to him, the buyer says, "I don't know_ what kind of an estate you have. If I buy it, it may be that your interest in it is for your life only, and if I buy it j-ou may live five or six years and then die and the land goes to your heirs. I won't buy it, for I don't know what your interest is in it." Now, that is the way a buyer will look at it, and his lawyer will so advise him, but he will say to the Indian, "If you could give me a fee-simple title, or if I knew that you could make that kind of a title I would buy your land and give you more for it." So it is that this class of lands are withheld from sale in this country for that reason. If the Indian sells, he can only get a frac- tion of what the land is worth, all because of this uncertainty as to 248 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the character of the title. Now, I think that Congress should fix it by stating in an act in plain terms just what the title of a father or mother, or both, i6 in the land of a child deceased and remove all this doubt and uncertainty. Of course I refer only to children who die without issue, for where they leave issue the law is plain enough; but something should be done by stating just what the interest of a father and mother, or either of them, is in the allotment left by a child deceased without issue. It is a serious matter down here and we want it fixed so we may know what kind of a title we have. We think we ought to know just what our title is in such cases. As it is now the speculator comes in and buys the land and takes whatever title he can get, trusting to luck to make it come out all right in the end, and in this way they have secured control to thousands of acres of the land down here, while if the people had a title in fee, a title in fee simple, they could make a good deed that a prudent buyer would accept, and not have to resort to these speculators or grafters and take just what they saw fit to give them. The condition that exists now will inevitably lead to law suits and lots of them in the future. If it is not arranged either one way or the other by Congress, the fellow that buys it and the heirs of the man that sells it will have numberless law suits, enough of them to practi- cally swamp all the courts we can have down here for years to come; so I say something ought to be done in the matter so we will know just where we stand, and in such cases know just what kind of a title we are getting or what kind of a title we have. In testing matters of this kind there would be no uniformity at all in the decisions, for one judge would decide oneway and another judge another way, and so on, until a case could go to the United States court of appeals in St. Louis and be passed on, all of which would take years, and the titles in the mean- time being in a state of utter confusion. It will, if Congress don't straighten the matter out right away, be a number of years before the buyer will know what he has bought or the seller know what he is selling, and for that reason I think it ought to be determined one way or the other right off. By Senator Teller : Q. Has that question not been litigated? — A. No, sir. Q. Has it been raised ? — A. No, sir; I think not. Not that I have heard of. By Senator Long : Q. These lands are sold as inherited lands ? — ^A. These lands are sold as lands inherited from deceased children who died without issue. It refers to full bloods. Now, a mixed-blood Indian can sell it without restrictions according to the Curtis bill, and a full blood can sell it by petitioning to have the restriction removed through the United States Indian agent. By the Chairman : Q. Under what law are estates administered? — ^A. Chapter 49 of Mansfield's Digest is the law of descent in this country. Q. Has there been any case decided in which that point was raised and passed on? — ^A. I don't know, sir. There has been none in this country. Q. So there has been nothing of that kind decided here? — ^A. No, sir. The law says that if a child dies without issue the father shall FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 249 inherit, and then the mother; but if it be a new acquisition, it does not say. So the question that will be raised here about that will be whether the allotment of an Indian is a new acquisition or an old one, whether it is newly acquired property or property heretofore or there- tofore held, and Congress can easily simplify it so that trouble and liti- gation will be avoided by stating what kmd of an estate the child has if it die without issue. It is important to the Indian and it is important to everybody excepting the lawyer, who probably would like to see it stand as it is so he could get fees out of the cases. - That is all I have to say or present on this siibject^ gentleman, and I trust you will give it your attention and see that it is straightened out. STATEMENT OF MR. J. H. SHEPHERD, OF McALESTER, IND. T. Mr. Chairman and Senators. I am not officially connected with the school systems of the Indian Territory. The only official position which I hold in connection with the schools in any way, and which I think is a very important one, is that of a school director of the city of McAlester; but I have always taken the position, ever since I left college, that a free government in all that the word "free" impHes must rest on the intelligence of the people; that the State owes every child an education or the means of acquiring it and that a good system of public schools is the foundation of the State. I have given that matter a good deal of thought in traveling over this country down here. I have traveled in one direction 60 miles without finding a school or a school building, and I found chil- dren in every, house I came to. I say thlat the maintenance of a good public school system, and the means of acquiring a good education is a duty that the State owes to every child within its borders, for on that education and the intelligence it develops must, in the end or final analysis, rest the success or failure of government and popular institutions under our democratic form of government. Where ignorance prevails there can be no such thing as the proper con- ception of what a free government means — a government for the people, of the people, and by the people ; and so I say that in travers- ing this country I have gone 60 miles in one direction without finding a single school or schoolhouse, and yet I found children in every house, all of whom desired, and should have, the means provided for them to get an education. I tell you, gentlemen, there is no such a thing as race suicide in this country. The people down here believe in children, and they put their beilef in practical operation, so you find children on every hand in the rural districts. The average number of children in native American families down here in the Indian Territory is greater than in any State in the Union, and particularly is this true down south here in the Choctaw and Chickasaw country; and at the same time the illiteracy is greater — among these same native American families is greater — than in any State in our Union. By the Chairman : Q. When you speak of native Americans, do you mean native Americans of all bloods ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you mean Indians, too? — A. Yes, sir; I mean Indians and everybody else, both whites and Indians, and I emphasize it S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 17 250 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. as far as the native Americans are concerned. Now, while that average of illiteracy is so high when you take the whole country — cities and towns, take it all — it is appallingly high when you take out the cities and towns, because in the cities and towns down here they have as large a percentage of educated people — that is, edu- cated as education is ordinarily understood — as they have anywhere in the country. I think the facts justify the statement that the educational standard down here in the cities and towns is as high as it is in towns in Connecticut or Kansas, or Colorado or Wyoming. In the cities down here in the Indian Territory you will find a very large percentage of college men. You will find a people who are keenly alive to the necessities of education, and people who have organized and put into practical operation a splendid system of education. I understand that Colorado stands at the head of the list of States in the amount of money per capita contributed by the State for educational matters and for providing the very best system available for the education of its children. I believe it is $22 per capita; but splendid as is that showing it is exceeded here, for the people of the towns and cities in this Territory appropriate one-half of thier entire revenue from taxation to the cause of educa- tion and the maintenance of their children in schools as well equipped and with as good facilities as can be found anywhere in the world in cities of like size. They have erected and are erecting public school buildings of the best type, and in addition to contribut- ing right now fully one-half their entire revenue to the cause of education, they are issuing thirty-year bonds, from the proceeds of which they devote an equal proportion to the erection of school buildings, thus showing their faith in the cause and the future of the country by so doing. They are willing to mortgage the future to get a result in the present that will meet with their wishes. In my city of McAlester on the 1st of December we will open bids for bonds which my people have voted that bonds shall be issued to the extent of $175,000; and we propose to erect schools to which everybody's child will be admitted — Indians and whites alike, though we are under no obligation to admit the Indians. We have admitted the Indian children to our schools, and we have quite a number of them down there; but we are just as anx- ious that they receive an education as we are that our own children receive it, believing that education every time makes for better citi- zenship, and the person who acquires it is better fitted to fight the bat- tle of life than is he who lacks that education. So, I say, we are willing to tax ourselves and give gratis an education to our brethren whose skin is not quite as white as our own. Now, I wish to state that where they are able to pay we admit them on the payment of a nominal fee, but if they are not able to pay, an education is not denied them on that account. By the Chairman : _ Q. Are you not obliged to admit them if they reside in the juris- diction? — A. Yes, sir; but we would admit them without any fee if it was necessary. We believe that an educated Indian is better than an ignorant one, and I fancy you gentlemen, if you don't entertain that belief now, will absorb it before you finish your peregrinations around the Territory. I will say, however, for your information, in our town FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 251 we admit them under an arrangement with the Choctaw authorities by which they pay $2 per month for their tuition. Q. You do not do that if they hve within the school district, do you? — A. No, sir. Q. That is an arrangement that is made with reference to the out- side scholars — the ones that do not live in the district ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Now, there are thousands of children who live in the Territory outside of the towns and cities who are absolutely without any educational facihties. In the great mining camps that we have in this country the miners contribute out of their monthly earnings a certain sum — I believe it is a dollar a month — to provide for their schools, and I don't believe they get any assistance from any outside source at all, except- ing that I do beheve that the Government has made an appropriation, a portion of which is furnished them; but at the same time I under- stand that that appropriation is furnished for the Indian children, and they don't get any of it except where there is Indian children. Now, the illiteracy is so great that the census of 1900 showed up a difference of 6,000 between Oklahoma and the Indian Territory, the figures being 392,000 for the Indian Territory and 398,000 for Okla- homa, being a difference in favor of Oklahoma of practically only 6,000 ; yet the number of illiterates — the number of persons between the ages of 10 and 24, native Americans unable to read and write in the Indian Territory — was something like 52,000, and in Oklahoma about 15,000. Now, I got these figures from my friend. Doctor Evans, and I understand that he gave these figures to you, or stated that he would have them prepared, along with other statistics, for your infor- mation. Now, gentlemen, that gives you some idea of the appalling degree of illiteracy there was down here at the time that census was taken, six years ago, but I assure you that the illiteracy is still greater to-day. I am satisfied that the percentage of illiteracy here now is greater than it was then, because of the great influx of white farmers, who have come in here as tenants on the Indian lands. All of these farmers have children who are coming into existence and growing up to manhood and womanhood without any school facilities in very many instances. Now, gentlemen, if something is not done on a scale sufficient to obviate the difficulty, that condition will remain. It may be asked if the new State will not put in operation a school system. I answer that it will; but it will be impossible for the new State to estab- lish and maintain all these schools at its own charge and expense. There will be no other revenue available for their maintenance, because in these rural communities there is no land taxable for school purposes or for any other municipal purpose. When you stop and reflect on the condition that the whole rural section of this Territory will be in in regard to the maintenance of municipal governments and the mak- ing of local improvements, the situation is very depressing. The lands are all owned by Indians, excepting, perhaps, a tract here and there, which will be totally inadequate to maintain or bear the entire burden of taxation. To attempt to do so would be confiscatory, and in any event would far exceed the limitation on taxation which the consti- tution will undoubtedly provide. So I say the thing of paramount importance is the establishment of schools and their proper and efficient maintenance, and as the State will be unable to do so, and if able would be unwilling to expend its entire revenue for school purposes in the maintenance of schools in the Territory, it follows, then, that if 252 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. schools are to be established and mamtained, they can only be so estabhshed and maintained by an appropriation from the National Treasury adequate for the purpose. I say this because it is apparent that the Oklahoma legislature would be very loath to expend more in the rural sections of the Indian Territory for school purposes than they would be willing to expend in Oklahoma proper for the same pur- pose. There must be some equitable and proper basis upon which the school funds of the new State will be distributed. There must be a per capita basis uniform over the whole State, and if $500,000 — ^we will assume that amount for the sake of argument — is the sum that is received from the sale of the, public school lands and the interest on investments of the State school fund, permanent school fund, and the interest on the $5,000,000 appropriated by Congress in the Indian Ter- ritory in lieu of school lands in the Territory, that will be all there is to maintain the schools in the rural districts in the Indian Territory, Q. What will be the interest on that fund of $5,000,000 ?— A. I don't know that. I don't know how the State will invest that money. I haven't any idea, however, that the State will be able to realize more than 4 per cent or 5 per cent at the outside. Q. I do not think you would realize more than that? — A. I can't see how we can. We have been able to sell our municipal school bonds ruiming thirty years at 4 per cent. Now down here in this country — the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations are expending $246,000 a year on their school systems. The largest part — well all the coal royalties are practically devoted to the educa- tion of Indian children by these two nations, but the larger portion of that fund goes to the boarding schools or academies. These are the academies which board and clothe the children or students. These students are selected under a former law by the appointment of the county judges, as the county judges are authorized by law to send so many pupils from each district; but since the tribal form of govern- ment has practically ceased, the schools are full of the children of citi- zens in these nations and so there is no education facilities at all for the vast majority of the residents in the rural districts. We would like to have this situation calmly and judicially considered by this committee, and if you don't come to the conclusion that the situation is really appalling for the future of the rural districts, it will be because we have not been able to impress on you a true sense or understanding of what that condition is. Now I submit that under these circum- stances — the fact that the land is nontaxable for school purposes, the fact that the new State can't show any favoritism in the distribution of its school funds and in any event can't appropriate sufficient to pro- vide and maintain school facilities here; the fact that the schools are needed so badly; the fact that if such facilities are not provided a very large class will grow up totally and wholly ignorant of education and its advantages; a fact which is ominous for the welfare and character of the future citizenship of this new State — I say, in view of all these facts and conditions that the United States ought to be very liberal in its appropriations, and that it should continue them until the time arrives when these communities will be able to help themselves, m other words, until such time as they will become self-supporting in all respects. I think that an appropriation of at least $250,000 annually should be provided — if it was double that amount it would not be too much — and that it should be given as a gift, willingly and cheerfully, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 253 in the grandest cause that ever a legislative body was appealed to in behalf of. This work should be taken hold of right now. There should not be any delay. Children have a habit of growing. They will keep on growing, and every year hundreds and thousands of them pass out beyond the limits of school age, imeducated and unequipped to fight the battles of life. Time and tide wait for no man, and so it is that while we are talking about these matters time in his resistless flight carries beyond school age thousands of children annually in this territory and the tide that sets toward ignorance and iacompetence will not permit their return. Now is the time when the work must be done for these of school age; if not done now it is past forever. So I say that all these children to which I refer pass out of the school age limit poorly equipped for the battle of life. These children are here all over this territory, working in the cotton fields and on the farms By Senator Teller : Q. How long in your opinion should this Congressional aid be con- tinued, or how long can it be contiaued? — A. Well, two propositions present themselves to me upon which, or by which the United States should act, and the first is to contiuue this appropriation for not more than two years,' but to make a very liberal appropriation for the com- ing year. I would say that under that proposition $250,000 is too small. I beheve that half a million dollars appropriated for the schools ia the Indian Territory would not be a bit too much, and that that appropriation should be expended under the present system of supervisors, and have all these schools wherever needed organized and placed in running operation, and then renew that appropriation for the next year sufficient to purchase all these school buildings and suffi- cient funds to operate them for another year. I think these buildings can be purchased for a very small appropriation. Now this applies specially to the rural schools, so called, because schools in the rural districts. By Senator Long: Q. Do you mean for the National Government to purchase them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What would it do with them when purchased ? — ^A. Devote them to the new State. Q. Give them as a gift to the State? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you aware of the sentiment that exists in Congress as to what we have done? Are you aware of the fact that there is a senti- ment existing in Congress, and a very strong sentiment, that we have done too much already? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you aware that that sentiment is that we have done by far too much for your people down here already? — ^A. Yes, sir; I am aware of it, but it should not exist. Q; Perhaps it should not exist, but it does? — A. Yes, sir; so I am told, but it IS a burning shame that any such a sentiment should exist among Americans or that any objection would be made for doing for our own flesh and blood a tithe of what has been done for an ailen race, the Filipinos. [Applause.] Senator Teller. That is right. We have not done anything for these people such as we have for the Filipinos. A. No, sir; nothing like it. 254 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Long. I hope you will not be the instrument of raising any difference in the committee. A. I can't help if a statement of the cold facts brings that result about. I think there will be no dispute about the proposition, that we ought to do as much at least, for our own people as for an alien race 10,000 miles away. Senator Teller. I think so too. A. Now resuming, I believe that these buildings could be purchased at a price very much less than their cost and very much less than what it would cost to replace them. They are all good buildings ideally fitted for the purpose for which they were erected ; and I am satisfied that the Indians will be satisfied with a reasonable sum for them, with something nowhere near their cost. Oklahoma has, I believe, to-day five normal schools already located, and it has a university located and endowed. It has an agricultural college in the northern part of the State endowed and located. It has a university at Norman with 800 students already located and in running operation. It has all these educational institutions already located and running, and there is nothing located over here. It will not be very easy to get the people of Oklahoma to locate any more institutions over here. Now, if we had these Indian national academies as a donation from the United States given to the State, then we could ask the people of Okla- homa to support them and furnish the people, the children of the Indian Territory with an education equivalent to what the children receive now in Oklahoma. We could ask the State to furnish the chil- dren, Indian and white, with a system of education corresponding in a measure to the educational facilities which they enjoy in Oklahoma now. They are admirably fitted for high schools and normal insti- tutes or technical schools, and could easily be added to as the require- ments of the educational system advanced. Q. What would you say as to the propriety of taking a part of the . five million dollars appropriated already and purchasing these build- ings with it? What would you say as to feasibility or appropriate- ness of doing that? — A. Well, I say that I don't think that it ought to be done. I think we ought to get them without touching that fund ; but I will say this, that if it was done that way it would be money well spent. It would be better to spend the whole thing in acquiring the buildings and the system which they represent when compared with the crime which the State commits m permitting children — white and Indian and negro or mixed bloods — to grow up in ignorance. Anything that will prevent that result can not cost too much, in my opinion. That can't be done, though. Q. You mean that we can't now take any part of the five million dollars, for that belongs to the State? — A. No, sir. Q. The State might do it, but we can't? — A. No, sir; that appro- priation is merged mto a contract, and it can't be touched now, the way I view it. I hardly think that the State could do it; but whether it could or not it is certain that it won't do it. I think that Congress ought to do it. By the Chairman: Q. On what theory do you say that Congress should step in and as- sume authority in any way over the school system of a State ?— A. You misunderstand me. I have not said that Congress should do so; and I FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 255 don't believe that Congress under any theory or precedent has any right to step in and assume authority over the schools of a State or interfere with it in any way; but if Congress should purchase these buildings and donate them to the State for educational purposes, I take it that that could not be construed into an interference with the State school system, any more than any gift I might see fit to give an individual could be construed as an interference on my part in his private affairs. I will state my position again, for there seems to be some misapprehension. If Congress by its action through the past has created a condition by which the people can't tax themselves — because I believe that the foundation of all good public school systems rests on taxation, for that is the source after all that must be looked to for the production of a steady and safe fund with which to carry on that work as well as all the other work of local self-government — so I say if Congress has created this condition by which the people are re- strained from taxing themselves to raise the fund to defray the cost of running and mamtaining these schools, then Congress ought to remedy that condition, and ia the present case the only way they can remedy it is by an appropriation. Q. Could it not be done by changing the conditions so that the people themselves could arrange for their schools and their mainte- nance? — ^A. Yes, sir. Unquestionably that would be the best way, if it could be done; and I say that because I am a firm believer that the best way for anything to be done is to have it or permit it to be done by the people who are interested in the work. Always get the Government as close to the people as possible and let them manage locally as many of their affairs as they possibly can. That is the way to get a good government and an effective government. Q. Well, would it not be well to address your effort to asking Congress to create such a condition of affairs here as would allow the people here to support their own schools? — A. Yes, sir; I think so. But still we would need this help for two or three years before we could get the machinery set up and oiled and in motion. I am not here asking for a continuance of this condition that exists; I am calling your atten- tion the best I can to the condition as it is as a basis for asking for these appropriations. But if Congress can see a way out of the diffi- culty and placing this country on a basis where it would be self-sus- taining, I assure you that there is nothing that they would appreciate more. Our people don't like to come to Congress in the attitude of suppliants or beggars. We are proud and independent, but, unfor- tunately, are the victims of a condition which we had nothing to do with in the way of creating it. All I am here to do is simply to ask for aid to help us bridge over the condition that now exists. The country is filling up with white people. Now, right here a word as to these people; I mean these people — white people — who are here; these people I have heard spoken of in Congress as squatters. Now, these people came here on the invitation of the Indians to improve the land. The Indians won't improve it themselves, and if it was to be unproved it had to be done by the whites; so the Indians invited them to come here and rent then- land and improve it. They paid their rent, and still pay it. They came here very largely from north- em Arkansas and from Texas and other States and they have filled up this country. These people are honest and they are law-abiding and . industrious. They are passionately interested in schools, and 256 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. every one of their children are in schools if it is at all possible to get them there; and I predict that in time they will make some of tlie very best citizenship in the United States — a citizenship that any community or State will be proud of. When they get an opportu- nity they will develop into the very best citizens ia all this broad land of ours, because of their thrift and industry and economical habits of life; and when they get an opportunity they buy the land and place their permanent improvements on it, for they are home builders and not simply birds of passage. It is no fault of such a people that there is not a school system; and I wilhsay this for them, that they have a stronger conviction in favor of a good public school system than I have found elsewhere among the people of the other northern Gulf States — I mean ia the northern portions of the Gulf States. I have preached the doctrine of schools and education there for years and years and could not get them to take any interest in it, but these people give an earnest and hearty response to any and every appeal in favor of education and are ready to tax themselves for its maintenance whenever they get an opportunity. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. Is there any large portion of northern-born people among these settlers? — ^A. No, sir; I don't think there is 1 per cent. I don't think there is one-half of 1 per cent. Q. You spoke of the people that came in here and rented the Indian lands. — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who were they? — ^A. Farmers. Now, about the coal and min- eral lands and the questions involved in their consideration, I will address the committee on these subjects when it gets to McAlester. That is a question that interests mostly, as far as education goes, foreigners and negroes. Q. Are the negroes that are in the coal-mining districts negroes mostly that came in there from the Southern States, or are they mostly negroes that are citizens of this country? — ^A. I think they are mostly citizens of this country, not members of the tribe, but people who drifted in here from time to time and remained here. Q. They are not the freedmen? — ^A. No, sir; I think not. There may be a few of them that are freedmen. They come in there because they can earn more money in the mines, therefore they go into the mines and work. Mr. Evans. I wish to say that in the entire mining population the foreign population is something less than 3 per cent. Practically there is no foreign population outside of the mining regions. Mr. Shepherd. Now, we have the facts, the population of foreign extraction is practically nothing, and that is a reason why I can and do appeal to you with more force in favor of our own people. We ask you to do something for your own kin and blood. Give us a basis to start off a good government and we will not do anything to bring the blush of shame to the cheek of any American. All we ask is a start on equal terms, and if we are given that we will do our duty. I repeat that my idea is that we can't have a good government unless we have a good public school system. Now, gentlemen, I did not come here on my own volition, but I am here at the request of the commercial clubs of the Territory to present this matter. Also the cities and towns of the Territory at the meeting we had through their FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 257 representatives requested me to appear here with Doctor Evans and present this matter, so we have prepared ourselves as best we could and made our statement. By Senator Long : Q. Do you later contemplate addressing the committee on the sub- ject of the removal of restrictions ? — A. No, sir. Q. Well, what views have you on that ? I would like to know what your views are, and I am satisfied that the other members of the com- mittee would like to hear them likewise? — A. Well, gentlemen, I haven't any very well-defined views. What views I have are crude, and really I would prefer not to discuss. them. Q. We win take that subject up to-morrow. — A. I will address the committee later on on the subject of the segregated coal lands. Q. You reside down at McAl ester? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you resided in the Territory ? — A. Three years. Q. Where were you from originally? — A. I am from Louisiana, but I was educated in New York City, at Columbia University. Thank you, gentlemen. That is all I have to say at this time. A VOICE. President Evans, president of one of our leading institu- tions of learning, is here. The Chairman. If President Evans has anything he desires to say to the committee, we would be glad to hear from him. Mr. Evans. I spoke verj fully to the committee at Vinita, and I don't believe I have anything I care to say further, at any rate not at this time. STATEMEITT OF MB. J. J. StlLLIVAN", OF BOKOSHE, IND. T. By Senator Long : Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Miner and lawyer. Q. You may proceed with your statement. — ^A. The principal people of the town of Bokoshe sent me here to speak to you on the segregated coal-land question, for the town is situated altogether on the segregated coal land. Q. Of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, do you want to go on with that question now? We intend taking that question up at McAlester. — A. Well, I don't intend to take up the question of the segregated coal lands as such. I will speak on the school question and the manner in which it is affected by this segregation, and particularly the school question as affecting the town of Bokoshe and the other towns in the Choctaw Nation. Upon reflection, I think I had better confine myself to Bokoshe, for what is true of that town is true also of all the other towns or mining camps. Q. How large a town is this ? — A. It is a place of about a thousand inhabitants. Q. And it is a mining town? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Coalmining? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And it is situated on the segregated coal lands? — A. Yes, sir. There are something like 34 towns situated on the segregated coal lands, and some of the town sites are provided for by the Govern- ment, so they own the lots their buildings are on. So these towns in that condition are able to tax the property for the purpose of building 258 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. schools and maintaining them; but towns located like Bokoshe is — that and smaller towns down, say, to populations of 300 inhabitants, and from that up to 500 inhabitants, and we have some 24 towns like that in that district that run from 300 inhabitants to, say, a thou- sand Q. How far are you from McAlester ? — A. Seventy-one miles. Q. Which direction? — ^A. East. We are situated between two tracts of segregated coal lands, and there is so little property that is taxable — that is, so little from which the restrictions have been removed, for that is all that is taxable, and there is so little of it, and there is so much segregated coal land that can't be taxed that it is impossible to raise any revenue to build a school, to say nothing of maintaining it after it is built. The Indian land can't be taxed as long as it belongs to the Indian, and the coal land is segregated and that can't be taxed either; and while some of the Indian lands are rented they can't be taxed, and the segregated land can't even be rented at all, and so there is no way of producing a revenue that would be fixed and certain and dependable to keep up schools. We have got schools down there, though, in some locaHties, that the people have built by clubbing together and they get a teacher in the same way when they can, but they are poor affairs. They can be called schools and that is all. I have been in about twenty of them in the last three months, and I'll tell you, gentlemen, that there are no desks of any description in two-thirds of them, and not one of them had a regular manufactured desk in it. These schoolhouses and the furni- ture in them are of the most primitive and simple description, and there is nothing about them that is attractive to the pupils. I tell you, gentlemen, that recently in the town of Bokoshe — and I use that as a sample, because what is true of it is true of every other town down there — in the town of Bokoshe recently there was a sub- scription taken up among the miners for school purposes, and some put in 50 cents, and some 10 cents, and so on for the purpose of putting m desks in the little old schoolhouse, and the desks that we got are just homemade desks and little better than nothing. In the country north and south of us there are schoolhouses so poorly furnished that, to say nothing about desks, there is not a sufficient number of benches for the children to sit on, and yet they will go to these schools and endeavor to learn — so anxious are these poor people to get an educa- tion that they will endeavor to get it under such discouraging circum- stances. Now, we took up this subscription to get benches for the children, and these benches must be made by people who are willing to contribute their labor for nothing. Now we have a school that was moved from old Bokoshe, two miles above there. That school building is made of very rough boards — boards of all lengths, thick- nesses, and widths. Some of them are half an inch thick, and some are an inch thick, and some are an inch thicker at one end than another, and it is the most wonderful piece of patchwork imaginable, and the floors are made out of the same kind of lumber — well, I need not describe it for it is about like most of them. It has very few win- dows in it — many of them haven't any windows like ordinary win- dows in them at all. They are not glazed with glass and lots or them haven't any ceihng in the!3i. They are just thrown together in any old way so as to keep out the wind and the rain, and they don't always do that; so you can see that they can't be very wann in the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 259 winter, and that is the time that the children should go to school. Well, while these schoolhouses are crude and primitive, at the same time they are the best we can get, and we consider them far in advance of nothing at all. It is true that down here in this mild climate we don't need as elaborate school buildings as they do up north, still we have some real nippy weather in the winters, and the children ought to have a place where they could go and study and recite their lessons in comfort. As I say, some of them have no desks — that is the way ours is — and hardly enough benches to sit on, and our school has 134 pupils going to it at the present time. Q. How many pupils are going, did you say ? — A. One hundred and thirty-four. Q. At the present time? — ^A. Yes, sir; all in that little schoolhouse. Q. How many teachers are there ? — A. One teacher. Q. One teacher attempting to teach 134 pupils? — A. Yes, sir; that is about all it can be, an attempt at teachmg them; still they learn something. It is far better than no school at all. Q. "Well, they don't have them all in one room, do they? — A. Yes, sir; all in one room. There is only one room for them. Now, that is the way it has been until recently, when the teacher made com- plaint to the parents of the children and to the superintendent, I think, as I have been notified by several. I will say this, however, at this ?oint, that my children are not down there at the present time, hey are in Chicago and they are not attending school here at the present time. They did attend last year; but, as I said, the teacher made complaint to the parents of the children and the superintendent, as I am informed, about what was being paid to the teacher, and the superintendent insisted upon $15 or $20 additional being paid in the way of a subscription from the parents of the children to aid in sup- porting the school, and he said that if they did not do that the $50 a month by the Government given to aid in supporting the school would be withdrawn. By the Chairman : Q. Is the teacher a male or female teacher? — A. It is a male teacher. That job down there would be too much for a woman. By Senator Teller : Q. I should think so. It is a wonder that it is not too much for a man. I do not see how it can be done. I have had some experience along that line and that beats anything I had. — A. Well, he has his hands full. He knows he has a job on his hands to teach those kids, but they are earnest little fellows and want to learn, if they are kids and a little wild at times. Q. Well, has not that teacher any kind of an assistant ? — A. I think he has one at the present time- that gets something like $15 or $20 a month. You understand my children are not there now; they are in Chicago, and what I tell you is hearsay, but last year I had personal knowledge of the conditions. _ / Q. And that work is all done in one room ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you say the teacher is disposed to complain? — A. I under- stand that he complained that the work was too much for him. I understand he has complained to the parents of the children as well as to the superintendent. 260 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. I think if I were in his place I should do more than complain; think I'd be likely to kick clean out of the traces and quit. — A^ Well, I guess that was what he was thinking of doing, but he's there yet. Now, there is no uniformity about the length of the school year. When we start in we don't know how long school will last. Last year we had about nine months of it, and this year about seven months, and the year before — three years ago — ^we had about two months, and so it goes. Now, I want to draw your attention to the fact that we don't hope for anything to be done in the immediate future by the Statfe govern- ment that we are so soon to have down there. If anything is done to relieve our conditions and give us a school that is worthy of the name and anything that is an improvement on what we have will be gratefully appreciated, but we must look to Congress for an appro- priation that will help us. We know that Congress has given us an appropriation that looks pretty generous, but we have a big country down here and there are lots of children in it and more of them coming all the time, and when you think that we have no land — absolutely none that a tax can be laid on — and no personal property to tax, and that everything that is done must be done voluntarily by a lot of poor coal miners that don't earn the biggest wages in the world, I believe you will come to the conclusion that we have some peculiar claim on your generosity or the generosity of the nation. We do things for every country under the sun that is imfortimate, and I believe if the situation were known in Congress that that body would do something for its own people, who need it just as bad as they do in the Philippines or Kussia or China. Charity is always com- mendable, but the place to practice it first is at home, and this is home, There must be something done in the immediate future, specially for the relief of this section imtil such time as Congress takes action on these segregated coal lands. The situation is'just this, we have a dis- trict there that is over 4 miles wide of this segregated coal land, that is all imtaxable and will remain untaxable as long as it is held as it is, and even when we get into statehood that land will still be untaxable, unless Congress takes further action to dispose of it or of the surface rights, for if the surface right to the land was sold — that is, the agricul- tural use of the land — and if it was sold reserving the minerals it could be taxed and we would be all right; but that is not the shape it is; so I say that unless something is done when statehood comes there will be no relief, for taxes can't be levied except in little patches here and there where the Government has authorized the building of little towns and sold the people the right to lots, so that they could erect their buildings on them, which gives the power to tax them. Aside from these isolated localities there is nothing that is taxable, excepting here and tfeere where people have located on the land, such as miners in the coal mines, some of whom mayhave a little personal property that might be taxable, but if there are such they are very few, and the little that they have that is taxable is not worth considering when it comes to a con- sideration of how to relieve this condition. Our condition appears to me to be desperate, and I don't know just how to lay it before you. There is our little town that has these children in it. We are all poor. We haven't anything much, none of us. It is a constant struggle to live at all, and the little pittance that we give to the school is some- thing that represents more to us than thousands would to others who rrVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 261 give nothing. There is our little town — no taxable property to amount to anything. To the south of there is a strip more than 4 miles wide of this nontaxable segregated land that no one may occupy. North of us is another tract of about the same width with a town on the northern edge of it. Four miles north of that again is another tract of this segregated land that rims clear from the State line of Arkansas to a point more than 30 miles west, and scattered at intervals all over this immense tract of segregated coal lands of upward of 440,000 acres there are these towns and hamlets and vil- lages, each teeming with a child population that gives the lie to the assertion that race suicide is the mam pursuit of the American people in this generation. All through it are these little towns and villages, all of which are situated right upon the coal land or immediately adjoining it. Now, it don't make any practical difference from a taxation stand- point whether this land is segregated or is not, for where it is not segre- gated it is Indian lands or allotments that can't be taxed, so it is not necessary to discuss that question. The sense of the matter is that it is all exempt from taxation. We have lands down there belonging to Indians from which the restrictions have been removed, which land is still not taxable, so I think that the people down there have more rea- son to complain about the record of Congress in reference to these mat- ters than any people in the Indian Territory. It seems that if Congress had set about fixing it so that there would not be anything by which a government could be mantained they could not have done their work any better. Of coiu-se we know that that was not the intention of Congress, but all the same that has been the effect of it. By Senator Long : Q. In what way or manner do you thiuk relief could come ? — ^A. To my mind it is very easy. The relief can be brought about by selling the surface or agricultural rights to all this segregated coal lands. Sell it all, reserving only the coal — that is, sell it all everjrvvhere except perhaps the small tracts that have been leased; but sell them too if they can be, reserving only the coal that is under it. There is a great deal of fine agricultural land down there in that tract, and it would all sell mighty quick to people who would move on it and improve it and raise cotton and corn and other crops on it and be in a position to pay their taxes. If you will do that you need have no fears about our going to Congress or to anyone else for relief. We will j^e able to take care of ourselves, and the population of the district will be tens of thousands more than it is now. Now there is not anybody on it only the coal miners and perhaps here and there a fellow who is raising a little garden truck and stuff that he sells at the coal-mining camps. Q. What do you think the surface of that land is worth down there, reserving the mineral ? — ^A. Well, sir, in district 92 I think that the mineral Q. The question is : What, in your opinion, would the surface of the land be worth ? That is, not selling the coal or mineral, but reserving that, what do you thiak the rest of the marketable land would be worth ? — A. Well, there is lots of it would be worth $25 an acre with- out the coal. Q. Twenty-five dollars an acre without the coal ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How deep is the coal there? — A. Well, the coal crops out on the surface there in places, and it is usually reached by drifts from the 262 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. surface that are run in on the vein of coal, which dips as you follow it. It is reached by drifts and slopes from the surface. Q. Are you familiar with that land down there ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What proportion of that land down there is available for agri- cultural purposes? — A. Well, there are 26,000 acres of it that I could mention in one patch that is all good land. Q. Where is that located? — A. That is from Stigler running west or northM^est along the Canadian Kiver. That is as fine agricultural land as there is in the Territory or in Oklahoma. There is no finer land anywhere. Q. Do you think that 26,000 acres would sell for $25 an acre? — A. Yes, sir; I do. If it sold for any less, it would be going too cheap. If I had the money and the Government would give me a good title, I would take it mighty quick at that price — the whole of it. Now, I will say this, that if due notice is given for some time in advance, so the public here and in other States would know that it was going to be sold, that that land would sell for more than that all through. It is worth a hundred dollars an acre right now as it is. There ain't any finer cotton land anywhere than that land. I know what I am talk- ing about, for I traveled all over it about a month ago. There is one farmer I have in mind who, in a way, has squatted on it, and he has about eighty acres of it ; and he said he would be glad to pay $8,000 for what he has under fence. He told me that he had bought the right to be there from a man who had squatted on it before it was allotted, and it was allotted to him and he had paid these people for their improvements. He has a mixed tract of land there, and he told me that he would be willing to pay $40 an acre for the land he has under fence. That is fine land down there; there is no doubt about it. Farmers who are in there renting from people who own the improve- ments tell me that it is nothing uncommon with the kind of farming they give it to raise three-quarters of a bale of cotton to the acre. I believe it, too, for I saw cotton down there that I believe would go better than a bale to the acre. Lots of that land would be worth a hundred dollars an acre and a great deal more than that if it was in some localities. I don't think there would be any trouble at all in getting an average of $25 for the whole thing. Q. Is you town on a railroad? — A. Yes, sir; it is on the Midland Valley road or Fort Smith and Western, as it is called, but this 26,000 acres that I have been talking about is not on any railroad at present. Q. How far -is it from railroad facilities? — A. It is 8 miles from the railroad at present. Q. And where is it located ? — A. It is in the Canadian River bottom. Q. What is the character of it with reference to its being timbered or otherwise ? — A. Oh, it is not timbered only in little patches. It is a fine rolling prairie — nothing necessary to be done to it in order to put it in cultivation, only to put up the fences and put the plow in it. There are no stones or timber on it at all. Now, m the south part of that strip of land it would not be worth so much, for it gets up in the hills, but even there there is some good land, quite a bit of good bot- tom land. Bottom land in this country is always good if it is high enough to be above overflow. Now, I think the majority of all that land down there would bring more than $20 an acre for the surface, and then again in the Wilburton district, running along from the Sta.te line of Arkansas east to South McAlester on the west, which is a dis- FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 263 tance of about 130 miles, in all that district through there I would think that the surface of most of it would bring about $20 an acre, for there is some mighty good fine land in there. Q. Do you mean the whole of the suf ace would bring that much ? — A. Yes, sir; I think the whole thing, hills and all, would bring that much. I think that some of it womd not bring that much — I know that some of it would not bring that much — but on the other hand, there is a lot of it that would bring a great deal more than that, so I am safe in saying that it would all bring that. Now that is provided you get the people there who want it to make farms of and live on it. If it gets into the hands of the speculators and grafters, of course it would not bring anything like that. They would get that for it and a great deal more, but they would not be likely to pay that much for it. Q. Your estimate is based on the condition that actual settlers who have money and are seeking homes would bid on it? — A. Yes, sir; and that is the only way to sell it — to that kind of people. What we want down in this country is people who will make homes and live and die here. By Mr. Benedict : Q. Are you in that estimate including the value of the coal? — A. No, sir; I am not. The coal is very valuable. If I included the coal it would be far above that. I am just valuing the surface and the right to cultivate it, that's all. Now, some may think that I am putting a high value on this land, but I believe if they had been over it as I have and saw it as I have seen it, any fair-minded man would agree with'me in placing the values on it I have. Now, this comes down to the coal proposition. It is hard to say what that coal is worth, but it is very, very valuable indeed. Experts will talk about the value of coal land andi so on, but the fellow that can tell you about that is the man who actually works in the coal mines. He knows more about it than the other fellow has forgotten. No one who has not worked in the coal mines can tell anything about what that coal is worth down there. By Senator Teller : Q. Have you worked in the coal mines? — A. I have. Q. Kecently? — ^A. Yes, sir. . Q. Have you worked in the mines down there ? — A. I have, and I have been through lots of them. Q. Are you a practical, experienced miner? — A. I consider that I am. I have worked at it long enough to consider myself a graduate in mining coal. Q. How long has it been since you worked in the coal mines down there ? — A. Well, I am working in them at present. I work every day they are in operation. Q- Well, proceed. — A. Now, I want to say further, with reference to these coal lands, that there are a great many coal miners down there who have been economical and careful of their money and they have managed to save up something and they are living down there and hanging on in the hope that the Government will decide some- time soon to do something with these segregated coal lands in the way of selling the surface rights to them ; and these men wish to go in and buy a quarter section or less of this land when it is sold with the idea of quitting the coal mining business and making farms for themselves where they can enjoy themselves and have a home. 264 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Now that is what they are waiting for and hoping for and all througli that country down there there are plenty of people waiting for tne same thing, and people in other States, I understand, have their eyes on the situation and wish to come down there. It is a fine country and it has as fine a chmate, winter and summer, as in the world. It is one of the very best cotton growing districts in the world and is as free from insect pests as anywhere in the world ; so I predict that if you will offer the surface rights to this land for sale at pubUe sale or "by sealed bids, as has been suggested, or in any other way, that the whole thing will be sold — that it will scare you, and at such prices as will prove that my estimate is much nearer the mark than others who are trying to get it down to almost nothing. Just have the same publicity as attended the opening of Oklahoma and other Indian reservations that have been thrown open to settlement and it won't be six months until every foot of it tnat is at all cultivable will be bought by farmers — actual bona fide farmers. Q. You think that the coal miners would take these lands? — ^A. Yes, sir; not all of them, but some of them. Some of the men I know have selected their land and are ready to buy it any time it is offered. They are holding on and waiting until a disposition is made of it and then they will be ready to go in and take their quarter section, or what it may be, and make their home on it. Q. They can get that information right now? — ^A. Well, I don't know about that. Can we be told when the lands will be offered for sale? Q. No; but they can get the information now about the character of the land? — A. They live down there and they don't need any information about the character of the land. They know what it is. The information they want is when the land will be sold and how it will be sold, and on what terms. They are in hopes that Congress will do something. Q. You seem to know something about this land. I would like to know how you would advise that this land be sold — ^in what sized tracts and on what terms or how paid for? — ^A. Well, sir, the people in my part of the territory are almost unanimous in the belief that it should be cut up into tracts of 160 acres, and no one person or company should be allowed to be in possession of more than 160 acres, and these parties, every one of them, should be actual settlers. It should not be sold to any but actual settlers. Now I mean by that that the surface of the land should be sold without the coal — the coal should be reserved. Mr. Shepherd. I will say that at a convention of the various cities and towns of the territory represented in that convention, commit- tees were appointed to secure all this information, which will be col- lected — it is now collected and all ready — and will be furnished to the cormnittee at its sessions in McAlester; and at that time and place we will give you an opinion as to the value of the land and the amount or proportion of it that is tillable — that is, of these segre- gated coal lands — and also the amount that can't be tilled, and the concensus of opinion as to how the land should be sold or disposed of. We have it all collected and ready for presentation. I will say further that almost every city and town down there was represented at that convention. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 265 The Chairman. That is the kind of information we are looking for and we will be very glad to have it. Mr. Shepherd. Well, it is all ready for you, and will be presented at McAlester. Mr. Sullivan. I would like to impress the committee that it is not only the importance that the sale of tnis land will have upon the school question, but also with the effect that it will have upon the country as a whole in attracting to it a numerous and stable population. This coal land, as the committee is aware, is almost exclusively in the Choc- taw Nation. There are vast areas of this segregation that have no mines on it at all. This 26,000 acres that I referred to awhile ago is unde- veloped entirely. There is not a mine open on it, excepting small surface or stripped mines, where a little coal is mined for sale to the farmers and others in the section, which amounts to nothing in the way of develop- ment. Now, there can't be any taxes raised there, not a cent, until that land is disposed of, and it can't be disposed of for the reason that it is set aside and withdrawn from the market, and over there on Brazil Creek the same conditions exist — it is all out of the list of taxable prop- erty. Besides being hampered by the restrictions on the Indian land we are hampered by this vast tract of segregated land the final disposition of which is in doubt. The amount of taxable prop- erty is so small that if a county government is to be maintained the county will have to be about seven or eight times the size of an ordi- nary county in order to secure any adequate revenue, and anybody knows that it is no advantage to have a county too large, for the very size of it adds to the cost of administering its government. Increased area means increased obligations, so there probably would not be any- thing gained by that ; but something of that nature will have to be done for the reason that there is so much segregated land and so much land held by the Indians that is not taxable. By the Chairman : Q. What is your recording district? — A. Fourteen. Q. What is the district town? — A. Poteau. By Senator Teller : Q. Suppose Congress determines to sell this land, how do you think it ought to be sold ? Do you think it ought to be sold at auction or at an appraised valuation or how ? — A. Well, sir, it ought to be sold at a price and in a manner to get all the money out of it for the Indians as possible. It is their land and they should, get all there is in it ; and in the second place, care should be taken to sell it in such a manner and on such terms as would keep speculators out of it, and result in getting actual settlers on it at once. You may not think so, but I tell you the speculators are the difficulty we will have to meet, and very rigid rules will have to be enforced if they are to be kept out of it. I think the best way to do it would be to have it appraised first and then sell it at auction. Q. You mean to sell it in such a way that the price at which it would be sold would not be below the appraisement ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. The terms you propose require actual settlement on the land ? — A. Yes, sir. I would have the land sold only to actual settlers. Q. And what do you suggest as to the size of the farms ? — A. Not more than 160 acres. Not more than that to one person and in less S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 18 266 FI'^'E CIVILIZED TRIBES. tracts in case they desire it. If a man only wanted 80 acres I would be 1 ., )r letting liim have it. I think it would, if any thing, be more desirable to sell it in tracts of less than 160 acres than in tracts that size. Q. Now about the terms; there are not many men that can afford to buy 160 acres of land at $25 an acre. There are not many labor- ing people who can do that, are there?— A. No, sir; but I think that a system can be arranged by which they can pay for it in installments. Q. What system do you suggest in reference to that? — A. I think that the system that the State of Iowa followed in the sale of its swamp lands would work all right. There was a system followed in the sale of the school lands and the swamp lands that came to the State that worked to perfection. In my opinion it was just about as fair as could be devised, and under that system they had eight years in which to pay for their land — the purchasers did. Q. With interest? — A. Yes, sir. Q. At what rate ? — A. Eight per cent. Q. That is too much. In these days 8 per cent is too much to pay. — A. Well, they don't have to charge that much. Congress can reduce it if that is thought to be too much. Q. Are you from Iowa? — A. Yes, sir. Now, the reason I say that is because in selling these town lots down there they gave the pur- chasers three years to pay for them, but it would be a greater hard- ship than in buying a farm, for they sold these small lots for not less than $25, and some of them went to $750 in Wilburton — yes, some of them went for $760 — and the people that were buying these lots at that price had the ability to pay for them in three years, and a man buying a homestead or farm of 160 acres is usually not as able to pay for it promptly as the man who comes into a town and pays $750 for a town lot upon which he has to erect a building and pay for it. They had three years to pay for these lots in the town, so it seems to me that Congress ought to give the man who is buying a homestead which he has to improve a longer time than three years to pay for it. I believe Congress in that respect ought to be more lenient to the man who is buying a home of 160 acres than it is to the man who buys the town lot. There are hundreds of men all around down there in that coal country who are anxiously waiting the day when they can jump in and buy some of that land to make a home for themselves. That was the way it was in Iowa when that swamp land was drained and put on the market. Q. What did they pay for that land ? — A. One-third or one-fourth down, the balance in two or three equal installments. , Q. Would any of them pay cash down ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Frequently? — A. No, sir; it was seldom that the land was paid for on the spot. Q. Now, you say there are some renters down there on the Indians' land? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind of rent do they pay, cash? — A. Very seldom they pay cash. In fact, there is but one man that I know of who pays cash, and he pays $2.50 an acre rent. Q. Do they live on the land? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And put up their own improvements ? — A. Well, in most cases the improvements are there before they go on it. The improvements don't amount to much. In a civilized community they would not be considered as improvements at all. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 267 Q. Of what do these improvements consist? — A. Well, they are of the most simple character. In most cases they consist of a little log house and a shack of a shed or something of that kind. The fences and everything are the very cheapest and most easy to make that they can put up. There are a great many of these people who are now renting fi'om the Indians who if this segregated land was thrown open to sale and settlement would quit renting and go on this land and buy farms for themselves. Another thing I wish to say is that in case this land is sold for settlement it would bring in a class of farmers different from what we have here now. The farmers as a rule are not very good; apparently they don't know how to farm to advan- tage and the opening of these lands would bring in a class of farmers who do know how and whose example along that line would be most val- uable to these people now there. Land down there that produces a quarter of a bale of cotton to the acre and perhaps 20 to 25 bushels of com by proper cultivation would produce its bale to the acre and •from 50 to 60 bushels of corn per acre, and so on. The reason that thiQgs are not managed better and better farming done is because they have a class of croppers down there. By Senator Long : Q. What do you mean by croppers ? — A. Well, I mean people who come in and take a piece of land for a year or for the season or for the crop. All the interest they have in the land is to get their crop off it. They want to get as much out of the land and give it as little as pos- sible. They don't pretend to manure or fertilize it; they are not there long enough to have any real interest in it, and under this sys- tem of farming the land rapidly runs down and gets worse and worse. They don't fertilize it, for they don't get the benefit of it for more than the one year, and they don't fence it for the same reason; conse- quently the improvements go on decaying and running down, and all the work that is done on them is just patchwork to hold them together long enough for the renter to get his crop off and hike out for some other location, and another man will come along like him- self and take the place for another year. That is the way it goes, you know. Under this system the land is overburdened and never has any show, and it's a wonder that it will grow anything. Now, under these conditions you could not expect men to do good farming, even if they knew how. Some of these men know that is not the way to farm, but the system really don't allow them to do anything else. Some of these men have hopes that the country will be opened up and they will be allowed to buy a farm and have it for their own, and if that time comes and they can get the farm on terms that will justify them to buy, they will probably show a different system of larming, and I know that the land wiU respond to it. We have hopes, too, that the restrictions will be removed from the Indians' lands, at least from their surplus land, and that will open up a good deal of land for purchase, and that, with this segregated coal land, which, if placed on the market, will render enough of the land subject to taxation to remove all fear as to the future of our school system and county gov- ernments down there. I wish to say further that we have a town laid out down there, and it has been laid out for years and years. It was laid out by a town company who hoped to purchase it from an allottee, and after that 268 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. was done and arrangements made to buila — indeed some houses were erected — the land was all segregated and consequently it could not be purchased at all ; but we went on with our building operations and people were born there and people died there, and consequently we have two cemeteries there. We have lived and died there, my people have lived and died there, my wife's grave is there and my child's grave is there, and, gentlemen, you can understand that there are many things that bind a man to a country under such circumstances. I love that country, and I want to see it enfranchised and redeemed from the curse and blight that hangs over it like a paU. I want to see it so situated that a man can have a title in it and can look the world in the face and say this house is my home or this farm is my home, and know and feel that it is indeed his home. As it is it is no man's home. No man has a title to anything. Everything is in a state of unrest and disorder so far as any real title or stake in the country is concerned. I wish you gentlemen could be there and see the improvements that have been put in there by people whose works ' show their faith in it and its ultimate redemption. Why, we have one rock building down there that cost $14,000 to build it. It is a build- ing that is used for a store in the under part and the upper part is used for a hall. It is a building that is 78 feet wide and 100 feet long, with an extension about 30 feet long at the rear for a store. Q. Of course the man that erected it expects to get the preference in purchasing the ground that it stands on when it is sold ? — A. Yes, sir. That is not the only building either, for we have over $44,000 worth of other buildings on the ground, including the lumber and labor. Most of the buildings, however, are of a cheap character and did not cost much. We have houses there that it did not cost over $50 to erect, and we have some that cost upward of $900, a store building that cost $700, another that cost' $1,000, another that cost $1,800, and so on. We have all kinds of improvements there in the way of build- ings, running from $50 up, and these people who made them must have had faith and confidence in the fihal outcome of things. But, notwithstanding this, there is really no inducement for people to make the kind of improvements they would like to make down there. Things will have to be on a fixed, permanent, and stable basis before people will go at work and generally make permanent improvements. In- dividuals may have more faith than others and do so, but the people as a whole won't do it. Q. You are speaking of your own town now? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. Three years. Q. And how long have you lived in the Territory? — A. Well, I have been in the Territory three years at the present time. Q. You mean you have been here that long this time ? — ^A. Yes, sir. I was down here in the Territory before, in the early days. Q. What State are you from ? — A. I came here this time from Ala- bama, but I spent the biggest part of my life, especially my boyhood, in Iowa. What the citizens down in that section are mostly inter- ested in is to get Congress to dispose of this segregated coal lands in such a way that they can acquire a title to the town first, so that they can have some assurance that they may safely build on their land or the land they occupy, and when they have that assurance they will go ahead and put up improvements that will be a credit to the place and be permanent; and of course they are also interested in seeing FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 269 that the segregated land — the surface of it — is disposed of in some way so that settlers will be induced to come in and settle on it and make their homes on it, and thus provide trade to support the towns and also furnish taxes for the support of the nev.' county, for the more peo- ple come in there and settle and the more land that is occupied in fee simple, the lower the rate of taxation will be on all. As it is, it is almost impossible for the people to pay the taxes that would be nec- essary to carry on local government, there being such a very small part of the land, relatively, subject to taxation. Now, gentlemen, I think I have fully laid before you the conditions down there and what we want and must have if the country is to thrive and prosper as na- ture intended it should thrive and prosper. Q. Have you any suggestions to make as to what to do with refer- ence to your local town down there? — A. Well, all the suggestion I would make is that you treat us just as you have the other towns in the Territory. Treat us no better and no worse — that will be all we ask. We desire to be treated just as the other towns in the Territory are treated by the Secretary of the Interior. All we ask is that a sur- vey be made of the town, or take the survey that has already been made, and sell the property on the same terms as the land was sold in the other towns. If that is done, it will be perfectly satisfactory to the people. Congress might by special act extend the same privileges to us that was extended to the city of McAlestcr or to McCurtain and Wilburton. That is all we ask, and if that is done we will l)e perfectly satisfied. We don't ask any special privileges, but we do ask that no special treatment be accorded other places that is denied us. If we can buy the land on the same terms and in the same way that the other towns did in the segregated district or in the other parts of the Indian Territory, we will not ask anything more. Q. That would enable the men who have built buildings to pur- chase the lots on which they stand ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is all that is asked? — A. Yes, sir; and allow the man who wants to purchase a lot and build a home. If a m.an wishes to purchase a lot for the purpose of building him a home, we believe he should be allowed to do it. As it is now, if the Goverimient authori- ties come in there and order us ofT that land, as they have the right to do, as intruders, we have to go, and we have no place to which we can move our houses. Now at Chant a decision was rendered by the district court — it appears that there is a clause in the lease to the coal company that compels them to keep off all intruders and to allow no person on there who is not associated or connected with the coal com- pany — that is is, not to allow any one there who is not connected with the coal company or its business, the land being used only for mining purposes, and the only houses under that lease that could be erected would be houses for the machinery and pumps, etc.; but people came in there and built houses to live in and merchants places to do their business in, but the court has decided that they are intruders. Now, that is the decision of the district court, and that town was built in just the same way that ours was, and the decision applies as much to us as to them. Now, if that decision is correct, we are all intruders and could be ejected at any time. Now, it seerns to me that this is a situation when as a matter of right and justice it is up to Congress to give us relief. It hardly seems to me that it was the intention of the Government in' the beginning to keep off all intruders absolutely, because there are 445,000 acres of these segre- 270 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. gated coal lands in the Territory, and 111 ,000 acres of it are under lease, and as the intention in leasing it was to operate coal mines it seems that it must have been known that it would be impossible to keep off intruders. Now, if it is true that the decision of the district court is correct, and that it will be sustained by the Supreme Court or the court of appeals, it seems to me, then, that the best proceeding in the case would be to institute and carry through condemnation proceedings, and purchase these leases back from the companies obtaining them, in order not to violate the contract with them. It is obvious that under the circumstances the two positions are irreconcilable, for the coal properties could not by any means be operated without people flocMng in. No business can be carried on without merchants and tradesmen being present to supply the demands of the people; and if the presence of these intruders is a violation of the lease, then the whole thing ought to be abrogated, and we should start from first principles again. Q. Are you on leased ground ? — A. How? Q. Is your town on leased ground ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; that town of ours is on leased ground, and Chant is on leased ground also, but it was a lease from the original lessee, and they have leased the part upon which coal has been found, but the part that the town is on contained no coal. Q. How far is the mine from the town? — A. About half a mile. Well, it is hardly a quarter of a mile to the place where the outcropping of the coal is found, but it is all segregated land, and is included in the lease that was granted to the Mazzard Coal Company. What we are specially anxious about is that Congress take some action on our town and other towns in the same fix that we are. In fact, we want Con- gress to take action that will fix safely the status of all the towns on that segregated land that are on our level, and grant us the same rights, privileges, and immunities that have been granted to other towns in the Indian Territory, so that we may proceed safely with our business, and also take such steps as will open up and develop the surrounding territory. That, gentlemen, is all I have to say. STATEMENT OP DR. CHARLES W. IVIE. By the Chairman : Q. What is your name ? — A. Charles W. Ivie. Q. Where do you reside ? — A. At Bokoshe, Ind. T. Q. What statement do you desire to make? — A. I just wanted to correct what perhaps might be a false impression that Mr. Sullivan may have conveyed without intending to do it, and that is in regard to the value of som.e of this segregated coal land. Now, I don't think that a valuation of $25 an acre would be just right ; I think that would be higher than what land of a similar character has been sold for. I think it is too liigh. ' There has not been much land sold down there, but I think the most of the land that has been sold about Bakoshe has been sold for about $10 an acre. That is what it has been offered at. Now, I know that that is not the land that he referred to, for the land that he referred to as being worth $25 an acre is in a special section; but I still think that his valuation is too high. Q. The land that has been sold in your vicinity is land that has been sold by allottees who have had their restrictions removed?— A. Yes, sir; and he was speaking of other sections where it would be worth $25 or $50 an acre and even more than that. I don't know FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 271 about that, for I haven't his information; but I do know that about Bakoshe and Brazee, which Hes southeast, and also off to the south- west of Bakoshe, land would sell for, I think, about six or seven or ten dollars an acre. That is about what I think it would sell for. Q. Is that land unimproved? — A. Well, it is practically unim- proved. The improvements don't amount to much. It is land on winch these renters are living or have been living. In some respects it is not as good as totally unimproved land, for the land has been rented to people who have always been trying to take as much out of it and give back as little as they could. The tenure of land down there is usually from year to year, and naturally when a renter don't know whether he will have the land longer than that one crop season he is under no obligation, he thinks, to treat the land with any care. His only object is to get all he can out of it before he leaves it, and that course of treatment naturally has not done the land much good. Q. Can you raise cotton on that land? — A. Yes, sir; they are raising cotton on it. Q. How much do they raise to an acre? — A. Well, about half a bale to the acre is the average all about Bakoshe. Q. About half a bale to the acre is the average? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How much do they get for their cotton per bale? — A. Now it is about $50. Q. Fifty dollars per bale? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How much is in a bale ? — A. Well, it is from 500 to 550 pounds. That is the average. Q. It is sold by the pound, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Beandegee : Q. You are talking now about the surplus lands — the lands that have been sold? — ^A. Yes, sir; land that was allotted to Indians as surplus and upon which they have secured the removal of restric- tions and it has been sold by the allottees. In some instances it has been mineral land with coal under it, but not in the segregation, so they have been able to give a fee-simple title to their property when selling it. Q. And this is the land that they sell for from six to ten dollars an acre ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. This is the land that they raise about half a bale of cotton to the acre on? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. So, then, this land that they can raise half a bale of cotton per acre on, and which they sell at for from six to ten dollars an acre, is land that raises about |25 worth of cotton per acre per annum ? — ■ A. Yes, sir; in a good year they can. But you must remember that they have to pay for picking that cotton, and it costs about 75 cents a hundred to pick it; and then there is the ginning, and the labor of raising and cultivating.it is worth something, so it is not all profit. Q. But they can raise $25 of cotton to the acre less the cost of picking, cultivation, and marketing? — A. Yes, sir; in a good year they can. This year they probably raised about seventeen or eighteen dollars worth per acre, and maybe it was as low as |15 an acre. This has been a hard year on cotton in that neighborhood. Of course what they get out of the crop depends a great deal on the price at which cotton is selling. This year cotton has been selling at a good price, and that has helped them out. 272 FIVH CIVILIZED TllIiBES. By the Chairman : Q. It would appear to me that land that produces cotton annually that sells for from $20 to $25 an acre, and which can be purchased at from $6 to $10 an acre would be an exceedingly good bargain to purchase at that price. It would seem to me that that Avas an ex- ceedingly small price for it to sell for. Is there any special reason why that land should not sell for more than that with that productive value ? — A. Well, I don't know. I never did any farming in my life, and I don't pretend to be competent to pass on that question. I am just stating the facts. I do know this much about it though, that it costs a good deal to raise a crop of cotton. The attending to it and picking costs considerable. Q. Well, is it expensive labor? — A. Well, 1 believe they pay on an average about 75 cents an acre for picking it. Q. In raising their cotton crop, did I understand you to say that they don't use fertilizers? — A. No, sir; they do not. Of course I realize that after a time as that country is opened up and settled, the value of that land will be greater. That is a new country, you understand, and in a new country land is never as available as in an old and well- settled country. Q. You think the value of land will increase in time then ? — A. Yes, sir; I haven't any doubt about that at all. When I was in Iowa some twenty years ago, land there was selling for $6 and $7 an acre, and you can't get it now for .less than $75 an acre, and it has increased that much in value in that time. It has to be a pretty poor man who will come out in this country and take a farm at this time. He has to have a hard time and make a hard living. Now, down there on Nubbin Ridge, which is down there in this segregation, and it gets its name from the kind of corn they raise on it, for it is mostly nubbins, it is poor soil up there, and there is a number of families up- there that I have treated as a physician, and I know that they are always complaining about being hard up and unable to pay me, for they say they can't get hold of any money to pay anything with. They live very poorly and a doctor never collects a doctor bill there. Now, I don't suppose that land would be valued at more than three or four dollars an acre, and in my opinion it is not worth a cent more than that. I wouldn't want it at any price, to be frank about it; still, that is not an average sample of the land down there. By the way, Mr. Shepherd says that he wishes me to state that this matter of the value of the land down there will be brought up at South McAlester, for he is representing all these towns and he will have all the data on hand there, and present it to the committee. The Chairman. Unless there is some one present who has some- thing to present to the committee on this matter that will take only a few minutes, we will take a recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon, at which time we will be glad to hear from any parties who have any- thing to present. So the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m., when it re- assembled. ArTEENOON SESSION. The Chairman. I am in receipt of a persohal note, wherein com- plaint is made that the enrollment has not been properly made, and 1 will say that that matter will be considered either in to-day's session or in to-morrow's session, when kindred matters will be brought up. i?iVB CIVILIZED TEIBES. 273 It has been and is the desire of the committee to secure as wide in- formation as possible, not only from the cities and towns, but also from remote districts, and more especially from the Indian side of the question. A delegation of full-blood Cherokee citizens have asked that their matters may be presented — that is, such matters as they may be interested in, and I have informed them that at the opening of the session this afternoon they would be given time and opportunity to present their matters, and if they are now ready we are ready to proceed with that matter. STATEMENT OF DAVID MTJSKEAT. By the Chairman : Q. State your name to the reporter ? — A. David Muskrat. Q. What connection have you with the Cherokee tribe? — A. I am acting head captain of the Keetoowah Society. Q. Where do you reside? — A. At Avonsville, Ark. — that is my post-office address, but I live just inside the line of the Indian Terri- Q. Then you live in the Indian Territory ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But your post-office is in Arkansas ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your nationality ? — A. Cherokee. Q. Are you a full-blood Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you speak English? — A. No, sir. (The responses to the foregoing questions were rendered by Mr. J. Henry Dick, official interpreter of the Keetoowah Society, who trans- lated the questions to Mr. Muskrat and translated the answers as above set forth, and who continues to act as interpreter, as below set forth.) Q. If you have anything to present to the committee you may pro- ceed to do so. Mr. Dick (interpreter). My post-office address is Tahlequah. Ind. T. A. (By Mr. Muskeat). My name is David Muskrat. I am glad to see you, and I am glad that you have permitted me to address you this afternoon, and I shall tell in as short a manner as I can what I have to say to the representatives of the United States. I came here at the solicitation of the full bloods of the Cherokee Nation, of whom I am one. I see since I came here that you are pressed for time and I won't be. able to go into full details at this time in reference to the matters that I wished to talk to you about, for the reason that you are so pressed for tinie. It would not be right for me to take up your time. Q. Take your time and tell us all you desire to tell us. We will be glad to hear it. — A. I will not be able to talk with you regarding all the matters I wanted to speak with you about. It would take up too much of your valuable time. I desire to take up with you the mat- ters that have transpired in our country here, beginning in the year 1893, and from then running down to the present time. It is my desire to inform you fully of matters that we desire that you should consider. The matters are matters relating to our personal property, and when I have explained fully to you you will be more able to take it up and consider it when you have all the facts before you. If you 274 FIVE CIVILIZED TElBEg. have the time to consider the matter I will take it up with you, and from the full blood's point of view I hope I will be able to make you understand it fully. I think I can make it very clear to you just what I mean, and I will do it as quick as I can so as to take as little of your valuable time as possible. ^Vhat I would like ver}' much for you to do is to give me time to prepare a written statement. If you will do this, in that statement I will go into full details concerning all the matters I desire to submit to you, and I will have it ready for you by the time that Congress convenes. The Chairman. We would be very glad to have it in that form, and he can furnish it, if possible, before we leave the Territory, which will be along about the latter part of the month. Mr. MusKRiVT. I shall try and have it prepared for you. The Chairman. Is that all? Mr. MusKEAT. That is all I care to say now, unless you desire to ask me some questions. The Chairman. We would like you to go generally into the subject- matter of what you desire to make your statement about. In other words, we would like to have some intimation or indication as to the nature of the subject — in a general way only, and without entering into details. Mr. MusKEAT. If you will tell me what you want, I will gladly do it. The Chairman. We would like your views now as to the general matters you wish to present. Senator Long. I will ask you what you object most to that has been done and what you think ought to be done by Congress in rela- tion to tribal matters? Mr. MusKRAT. One of the main things I desire to say is in relation to our land and the method that has been pursued in dividing it up. Senator Long. You desire to say something to the committee rela- tive to the method that has been followed in dividing your land? Mr. MusKRAT. Yes, sir. Senator Long. "^Yhat objection have you to that method ? Mr. MusKRAT. I want you to know that I don't object to the allot- ment of the land, but I do object to the manner in which it was done and the manner and method in which the allotment was made. Senator Teller. Let him state why he does not like the method. Mr. Mtjskrat. The part that I object to in reference to the allot- ment of the land is with regard to the lands due to married citizens. Senator Long. You believe that they were entitled to their allot- ments ? , Mr. Mtjskrat. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Has not that been decided recently by the Supreme Court? Mr. MusKRAT. Yes, sir; the Supreme Court has decided recently that they were entitled to them, that they were entitled to their allot- ments, but that was not done until we were forced to institute suit, We had to institute suit before it was done. Senator Long. And that suit has recently been finally decided by the Supreme Court? Mr. MusKRAT. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 275 Senator Long. That suit was ilecided in a way to suit you, was it not? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Well, what do you want Congress to do now ? Mr. Mtjskeat. At the coming session of Congress, what do we want it to do? Senator Long. Yes. Mr. Muskr.\.t. I would like to have them do this : If the other peo- ple in my nation who have taken allotments of land, and who were not a part of the people that the land was sold to by the Government, I would like to be able to go into court and see whether or not they were entitled to allotments of land. Senator Long. To whom do you refer specifically ? Mr. MusKRAT. To the freedmen and children born since 1902. Senator Long. Have you taken your allotment? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You have taken your allotment then ? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What do you think about the question of the removal of restrictions on allotments ? Mr. MuSKEAT. I believe that the idea of keeping the restrictions on their land is a good one. Senator Long. For all the Indians — for all the full bloods ? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir; for all the full bloods. Senator Long. Have your restrictions been removed ? Mr. MusKEAT. No, sir. Senator Long. And you do not want them removed ? Mr. Mtjskeat. No, sir. Senator Long. You believe that the restrictions should not be re- moved ? Mr. Mtjskeat. No, sir. Senator Long. Do the full bloods as a rule prefer not to have their restrictions remcwred ? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir ; as a general rule they do not want them re- moved, but there may be one now and then that would like to have his restrictions removed. Senator Long. As a rule, then, the full bloods believe that restric- tions of the sale of land should not be -removed ? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir ; that is what they believe. Senator Long. Do you want to pay taxes on your property ? Mr. MusKEAT. No, sir. The Chaieman. I would like to know whether you think there should be any restrictions on the homestead or the surplus land ? Mr. Mtjskeat. There should be no difference. The Chaieman. It should be all the same, then, in your judgment? Mr. Mtjskeat. There should be no difference ; they should be on all of it — the restrictions should. The Chaieman. The restrictions should remain in your judgment on both the homestead and the surplus land alike ? Mr. Mtjskeat. Yes, sir. They should be on all of it just the same. The Chairman. I just wanted to get your idea of it, as a full blood. Senator Long. Then you do not believe in the removal of restric- tions on any of it ? 276 I'lVE CIVILIZED tftlBES. Mr. MusKEAT. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. Are there many of the full bloods that are per- fectly competent to manage their own affairs ? Mr. MusKEAT. Not of those I know. Senator Beandegee. The ones that you know are not competent to manage their own business or affairs ? Mr. MusKEAT. Not the ones I know. Senator Beandegee. Do you consider yourself competent to manage your own affairs ? Mr. MusKEAT. As a general proposition I understand things very well, but I don't feel competent, I don't feel that I understand busi- ness well enough at all times to manage my own business. I mean that I don't feel competent to manage my own business all the time, for things come up now and then that I don't understand, and if I was allowed to sell my land 1 might make a bad bargain when I thought I V\'as making a good one. Senator Beandegee. Are you a farmer ? Mr. MtJSKEAT. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. And do you cultivate a farm ? Mr. MusKRAT. Yes, sir. I used to cultivate a farm mj'self, but I don't do it now. Senator Beandegee. How large a body of land have you under your control or in your farm ? Mr. MusKRAT. I have 160 acres of land, 80 acres of which is in cul- tivation. Senator Beandegee. Is that your own land ? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. Have your wife and children land, too? Mr. MusKRAT. We are living now on my wife's allotment. Senator Beandegee. You have an allotment in addition to that, too, haven't you ? Mr. MusKRAT. Yes, I have one somewhere. Senator Beandegee. And you live over east of h«re, near the Ar- kansas State line ? Mr. MusKEAT. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. How far is that from here ? Mr. MusKRAT. Seventy-seven miles. Senator Beandegee. That is all. Mr. MxjSKEAT. I am very glad to see you and meet you. STATEMENT OF J. HENRY DICK. Senator Long. Are you a full-blood Indian ? Mr. Dick. No, sir ; I am not a full blood. Q. Well, what is your blood? — A. I am half Indian — a quarter Creek and a quarter Cherokee. Q. Where do you live ? — A. At Tahlequah. Q. Where were you educated ? — A. Here at Muskogee — out here at this Baptist college, about four miles from here. Q. What do you say as to the general competency of full bloods to manage their business? I suppose you are well acquainted with them ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have lived among them all my life. Q. As you know them, what do you say about their competency FIVE CIVILIZED .TKIBES. 277 to manage their own business affairs for themselves — that is, the full bloods? — A. Well, some of them are competent to take care of their property and some of them are not. Q. You think that some of them are able. to take care of their property? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And some of them are not able to care for it properly? — A. I think some of them are not. Q. What do you say about the proportion of them that are able to care for their property as compared with those that are not able to care for it? — A. Well, I would say that most of them were not. Q. So you sajr that most of them are not able to care for their property ? — A. "\Vell, yes, sir ; I should think so. Q. And, as stated here by Mr. Muskrat, generally the full bloods do not desire the removal of their restrictions? — A. As a general proposition they do not. Q. They do not want to pay taxes ? — A. No, sir ; they do not. Q. And they know that if their restrictions were removed they would have to pay taxes ? — A. That is their understanding. By the Chaieman : Q. What are your personal views as to the removal of restrictions on either the full bloods or the half or mixed bloods? — A. Well, I will say this. If I had anything to do with the removal of restric- tions I would make it a sweeping thing. Q. What do you mean by that? — A. AVell, I mean that I would remove them from everything — homesteads and all. As to full bloods, if I Avere going to make any removal of restrictions I Avould let the Secretary examine into their competency. Q. Into their competency to do business for themselves? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You would have the Secretary of the Interior do that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And then, if upon that investigation it was shown that the full blood was capable, thoroughly capable, of managing his property, you would allow him to dispose of it if he desired ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then, if they were proved fully competent, you would not remove it on the homesteads? — Yes, sir; that is the way I would do it. Remove it off the whole thing. Q. Have you found some of the full bloods wanting that re- moved ? — A. On what ? Q. On the surplus lands? — A. Well, I have found some of them wanting it all removed. Some want it removed on everything and some only want it removed on the surplus. Q. And some do not want any of it removed? — A. Yes, sir; the great majority are against having any of it removed; but some want it taken off the surplus only, and some off both the surplus and the homestead. • Q. What is the sentiment regarding removing all the restrictions ? — A. Well, I think the sentiment is pretty generally against having it done. Q. They think that if the restrictions are removed they will have to pay taxes, and for that reason they do not want it done ? — A. Yes, sir. I think that all the Indians, full bloods and mixed bloods too. 278 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. understand pretty generally that if the restrictions are removed it means that the property will become taxable, and because of that they, as a rule, don't want their restrictions removed. Q. They are opposed to paying taxes? — A. Yes, sir; if they can avoid it they mean to do so. I have my personal opinion. Q. What is it? — A. I believe that if the restrictions were re- moved from all the property down here that it would greatly lessen the taxes on the property that is taxed now, for if all the land was taxed it would be distributed around over so much more land that it would be lighter. Q. And so I understand you to say that the majority of the full bloods are ojoposed to the removal of the restrictions on any of their land ? — A. Yes, sir ; I believe that is the fact. Q. And the reason they are opposed to it is because it would ren- der the land taxable ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is one of the reasons. Q. How far into the question of the objection to the removal of , restrictions does this question of taxation go ? In other words, what is the extent of the objection on that ground? I mean by that how far does it influence them ? — A. Well, it is a great deal. They don't want to have to pay taxes. Q. Is that the predominating objection, the element of greatest force and weight that enters into that objection? — A. I think so. They seriously object to paying taxes. They have never done so, and they don't want to begin now. They don't want to hasten the time when they will have to pay taxes. They think that they will have to pay taxes sometime, but they don't want to pay them be- fore they have to. I mean that they don't want to hasten the day when they will have to pay taxes. I believe that is the thing that they most fear. Q. Then that is the thing that mostly moves them to object to the removal of restrictions? — A. I belive so. Now there are other things that cause them to take that position, too. While most of them believe that they are capable of taking care of it, and a few of them know that they are, still they don't want the restrictions re- moved, because they know that there are some that are not capable of taking care of it, and they would be swindled out of it in a short time, and that such would come back on the nation again for sup- port. Now, that is another strong reason, and I don't know but that it is the strongest reason, the knowledge that a great many of the full bloods and half and mixed bloods, too, are not competent or capable of managing their affairs, and if their restrictions were re- moved they would sell their property for whatever they could get for it, and spend it, and then in a short time they wouldn't have anything and would be a charge on the people. Q. What is the feeling among the children of the full bloods gen- erally with reference to getting an English education in the schools? Are they desirous of getting a good education in the schools? — A. Yes, sir; you will find that the full bloods, all of them, are very anxious that their children go to school and learn the English lan- guage, but they also feel that they have often been discriminated against in the schools, because you will often find a full-blood set- tlement that has no school, although it is full of children; so they feel that in the establishing of schools they have been discriminated FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 279 against; and I myself believe that is the case, but whether it has been intentional or not I don't know. Q, Is that not because they have not provided the required school- house and other facilities? — A. I don't think so; for often they have the schoolhouse there already, but they don't get the school. Q. Do you know how many neighborhoods of full-blood Indians there are in the Cherokee Nation where they maintain a school by subscription ? — A. No, sir; I have no information on that subject. They feel that they have money of theirs that is held by the Govern- ment that should be used for schools, but the Government don't do it. It continues to hold the money and won't give them the schools. They understand that so much of that money is set aside for educa- tional purposes and they feel that it ought to be applied to that purpose. Q. But generally the full-blood parents desire that their children should have a good English education ? — -A. Yes, sir. Q. You have lived down in the Cherokee country all your life? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you know these people very well, speaking their language as you do and mingling with them ? — A. Yes, sir ; I don't think any- bocly can know them better than I do. Q. What business are you in ? — A. I am in the real estate business. Q. In Tahlequah ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is all. '■ By Senator Brandegee : Q. Why have so many full bloods refused to take their allotments ? — • A. Well, the primary reason for their refusal to take their allot- ments was because the law regarding the allotment of the land re- quired that the distribution should be made equally among all classes of citizens; their contention being that the freedmen were not en- titled to participate in the final distribution of the lands. Q. And for that reason refused to accept their allotments, or to select them ? — A. Yes, sir ; for that reason they refused to take allot- ments — refused to have anything to do Avith it. They voted against the agreement and refused ever since to recognize it in any way. Q. You mean that the full bloods voted against it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But they were not a majority of the tribes? — A. No, sir. Q. And not being a majority of those entitled to vote, they were outvoted? — A. Yes, sir; the majority was against them. The citi- zen vote and the full-blood vote together would have defeated the treaty. Q. Well, what is it they expect to achieve in the way of benefit i,o themselves by refusing to accept their allotments ? — A. By eliminating those that they think are not entitled to participate in the final dis- tribution. They understand that when a Cherokee receives his deed, he receipts in full for all his interest in the tribal property, that he relinquishes all and every interest he has in the tribal property. By Senator Teller : Q. Do they actually expect now to reverse the policy of the Gov- ernment in respect to the allotment of the land? — A. Well, I don't think they expect to do that, but they want the court to pass on the question of whether or not the freedmen have a right to participate in 280 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. these allotments. They have already decided in the Whitman case Q. Is the freedmen's case appealed ? — A. I don't know what shape it is in now. Q. Their position now is that they do not want to take any action that will estop them from taking advantage of any future decision? — A. Yes, sir ; that is it. Q. The f reedmen are provided for in the treaty of '66 ? — Yes, sir. Q. They were to have a certain amount of land and the Govern- ment was to pay for it? — A. Well, the contention of the full bloods who refused to accept or select allotments — their contention is that the treaty of 1866 provided that the freedmen were to live in the Cherokee Nation and go out on the public domain and make a farm and get all the benefit of the law and an education, but that they were not to get the land if it was distributed among the owners. Q. He was to have just the same right of occupation that any Indian had or shouTd have? — A. Yes, sir ; I believe it was as much as any citizen should have. Q. Under that condition of affairs he became as much of a land- owner as you or anybody else, did he not? — A. Yes, sir; under that proposition. Q. Well, under this state of facts there was a result arrived at, and they can not expect the Government at this late day to change that result? — A. Well, that is what they do expect. Q. They might as well understand now as at any future time that it is a fallacious hope, it is an expectation that will not be realized for the Government certainly will not change it. — A. Well, I don't know about that, there may be a difference of opinion on that subject. Q. I do not think there can be any difference of opinion — they feel that the distribution was unequal ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that people have participated in it that had no right to particii^ate ? — A. Yes, sir. The Chairman. They had a right to occupy the land and share in the political rights, but not to own the land. Is that it? A. That is the proposition. Q. That is the contention of the full bloods ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; that is the proposition in a nutshell. That is where they stood in 1866, and that is where they stand to-day. Q. Is there a suit pending now to determine whether the freedmen are entitled to this share in the land? — A. There is a suit instituted. I don't know what shape it is in now. Q. But litigation has been instituted to determine that question?— A. Yes, sir. By Senator Brandegee: Q. If that question were settled, would the full-blood Indians come up and take their allotments ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I hope it will be speedily settled and so as to determine this question ? — A. I hope so, too. By Senator Long : Q. Some of the full bloods have taken their allotments ?— A. Yes, sir; some of them did and others did not. The most of them did not, however. Some of them went and voluntarily selected their FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 281 allotments, and those that did not voluntarily select them the commis- sion arbitrarily selected them for them, but they would not accept them, and no plan has been devised yet to compel them to accept them. Q. They are, generally speaking, on their own land that has been allotted to them, are they not ? — A. No, sir ; not generally. Q. In a number of cases the allotments were made where they live, were they not? — A. Well, in these arbitrary allotments they will often find that they are living on another's land — they will often find that they are living on another fellow's land. By Senator Brajvdeuee : Q. Among the full-blood Indians that you know, do you find any people who believe that the Government will recede from the policy it has followed for years? — A. Yes, sir. Q. There are such ? — xV. Yes, sir. Q. How many? — A. Well, I couldn't say how many, but we have quite a lot of people who believe that. Q. That was the belief of several Indians who appeared before us at Vinita, and I just wanted to know if there Avere any elsewhere who entertained the same oj)inion. — A. There are a few amongst them who believe that. By Senator Teller : Q. What percentage of the full-blood Indians took their allot- ments? — A. Well, I could not say, but you can easily find that out here. Q. There are about 7,000 full bloods in the Cherokee nation? — A. Well, I don't think there is hardly that. It is 6,000 and something. Q. And about 25,000 mixed bloods? — A. I don't know the number of mixed bloods. Q. Did any of the mixed bloods refuse to take their allotments? — A. I don't know of any. Q. As a matter of fact, the mixed bloods will take anything they can get in the way of land ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Bbandegee : ■ « Q. Is this Mr. Muskrat, who appeared here, a chief among his people? — ^A. No, sir; he used to be senator off and on for a long time, but he never was chief. Q. But he was a senator in the Cherokee council ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But he is a prominent man in the Cherokee Nation ? — A. Yes, sir; he has been made captain of the organization I spoke of a while ago. Q. Are the proceedings of that organization public? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. There is no objection to these allotments as far as that is con- cerned : the objection only goes to the f reedmen sharing in them ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the only objection to them ? — A. Yes, sir ; but some don't believe in allotment on any terms. Q. What does that word " Keetoowah " mean ?— A. That is the ancient name of Cherokee. Q. Do you belong to it? — A. Yes, sir. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 10 282 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. What is its object? — A. To protect the full bloods. Q. It is organized in the interest of the full bloods? — A. Yes, sir. It is in the interest of all the members of the tribe. Q. Does it take in any others as members excepting the Chero- kees? — A. Well, none others have made application to join it, so I may say it is confined to the Cherokees. Q. And it is not a secret organization ? — A. No, sir. Q. Is there any other representatives of the full-blood Chero- kees who would like to be heard? — A. No, sir; I think not. They want me to make and prepare a statement to you, but I have not had lime to prepare it yet, but it will be done. We have not got it ready for presentation now. STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK J. BOUDINOT. By the Chairman : Q. Your name is what? — A. Frank J. Boudinot. Q. What is your post-ofRce address? — A. Fort Gibson, Ind. T. Q. You may proceed with your statement. Mr. President and gentlemen, I appear in behalf of the Keetoowali Society, and I am a member of that society, and its English secretary. Referring to the objections which the full bloods entertain to the al- lotment of lands in the Cherokee Nation, I can state their grounds of objection, because I was intimately associated with them during the years of the negotiations that were going on that led up to the enact- jnent of the law of 1902. I have letters and communications that are of record and on file in the office of the Dawes Commission which show the facts in that regard, and show clearly the grounds of objec- tion. They objected to allotting their lands among all classes of citi- zens at that time. The Cherokees by blood who had originally bought this land, or the descendants of the ones Avho had bought it, who were also citizens of the Cherokee Nation, Delawares, and Shawnees and Creeks, who had been expressly adopted into the nation and whd had interests in the lands and funds of the nation who Avere alike equally interested. In addition to these, there v.ere a few white farmers who had been formally adopted into the nation, were also interested in the matter. These were the descendants of old missionaries or were old missionary families. These constituted the class of citizens who were recognized as having a legal right to share in the common property of the Cher- okees. There was no question as to the right of any of these to share in the common property of the nation. Q. What were the classes that they objected to? — A. The inter- married whites, whose case has been decided in the Supreme Court, and the freedmen, Avho were allowed in the Cherokee Nation by virtue of the act of 1866, and in addition a class called " reservators, Q. Describe them. — A. I will tell you what is meant by that. That is what they were called — " reservators." In the old nation, back east of the Mississippi, where they came from originally, there were certain individuals allowed in the nation by the terms of an agree- ment. They Avere allowed to stay there and to withdraw their lands out of the Cherokee lands and be paid their share and then become citizens of the United States, which they did. Q. You mean they practically withdrew from the tribe? — A. YeS) FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 283 sir ; afterwards great numbers came out here since that time and were in tlie Cherolfee Nation, and are in it now, or their descendants are here. The Cherokees objected to them and to their sharing in the national domain and funds on the ground that they had taken their sliare therein away back many years ago east of the Mississippi Elver in the old country where the Cherokees lived at that time. It Avent along so far and things had become so remote that it was kind of passed over, but these people were here all the time; and finally this allotment act was made and there was not any distinction made, and all these classes wore permitted to come in and take their share in the allotments that were made. By Senator Long : Q. Proceed and tell us what the objections were to the freedmen. State the respective claims on that proposition. — A. Under the ninth article of the treaty of 1866, all freedmen who had been freed or lib- erated by the voluntary act of their Cherokee owners, or by law, or free colored people, no matter whether they had ever been slaves or not, Avho lived in the nations at the time of the war of the rebellion, or returned to the Territory within six months afterwards, should have all the rights of full-blood Cherokees; but the courts have de- cided that that did not refer to their property rights, but meant that they should have full civil and other rights not property rights. Q. What do j'ou mean by property rights? — A. That they could not share in the lands of the Cherokee Nation. That is what the courts decided, that that provision of the law did not mean that they were to have that kind of property rights. They construed the law to be that the Cherokee Nation was simply a trustee and was holding the land in trust for all the people of the Cherokee Nation who were full citizens in every respect, without limitation or restriction. They decided that the title rested solely in the jaeople who originally bought it; and if the time should ever come when that trustee title should fail, only those who owned the fee should have a right to take their shares in the national domain in severalty. The argument made by the freedmen was that they had lived here for many years, and ahcl used the land just as other Cherokee citizens had used it before the division, and therefore thej^ had the right to take their several shares in fee, and the Cherokees, on the other hand, said that they did not believe that could be, for that in effect would be giving them some- thing for nothing. Q. Is there anything pending in the courts to test the construc- tion to be placed on that ninth article? — A. Not directly. There was a test case; it was an injunction suit instituted before the United States court at Talequah Avhich raised these questions, and that went out of the court on a demurrer. Q. It was demurred out of court? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Before what judge was that case pending? — A. Before Judge Gill, was it not? Now, my understanding is that it went out on a demurrer. I really don't know whether that case is pending now or not. By the Chairman : Q. And the allotments were made to the freedmen? — A. Yes, sir. Now, that was- their objection. They insisted that if this division was to be made, they believed that before any attempt was 284 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. made to make it that these preliminary questions ought to be settled. They insisted that all these preliminary questions ought to be settled before the law was passed, and that after it was passed they ought to be settled before any attempt was made to put them in operation by alloting the land. I don't think anyone will dispute the proposition that it would have been a good thing if that course had been followed. Q. They believed that that should have been done before the division was made? — A. Yes, sir; that all these questions that were raised should be settled before the law was passed providing for a final distribution of this land. In other Avords the position of the Indians was that it should be divided as any other estate is divided, first find Avho are the legal heirs and then divide it among them according to their several interests, instead of dividing it among people who claimed that they were interested in the division, but whose legal right to share therein was questioned. That was the way it was done — divided up amongst people part of whom were unques- tionably entitled to share in it, but a great many whose right to share in it was disputed and gravely doubted. Now, as to the complaint. Wliile the full-blood Cherokees did ratify or approve the treaty— I mean the law of 1892^still after it was ratified they realized that it was the law and was binding. It was the agreement sub- mitted by Congress to the voters of the Cherokee Nation to be ratified by them, and it was ratified by a majority vote, although the full bloods almost unanimously voted against it. That agreement or law closed the roll on September 1, 1902. Now, relating to the closing of the rolls. of citizenship, it appeared plain that Congress intended it, and did close the roll finally and provided that anybody born after ►S'eptember 1, 1902, should not share in any manner in any property of the Cherokee Nation. Q. That Avas Avithout reference to the blood? — A. Yes, sir. Citi- zens entitled to participate Avere entitled to be enrolled, but the rolls were closed absolutely from on and after that date, and there could be no enrollment after that time. Now, in April, 1906, you remem- ber Congress passed a laAv providing for allotments to minors living on March 4, 1906 ; but the law don't say " born since 1902," but that was the way the Dawes Commission construed it, so since that time they have been enrolling minors born after September 1, 1902, and up to March 4, 1906, and there was 5,500 of them, making the cash valuation of the allotment in money at $650 each, or a total of $3,750,000 I think it was about. Now, the Cherokees in their annual meeting in August, 1906, passed a resolution protesting against that law, and asked its officers to institute proceedings in court if they could to contest the consti- tutionality of the law on the ground that vested rights had attached after the passage of the act of 1902 ; that citizens living then had an indefeasible right in the property after that time, and that Congress had not any right after that time to give the property to anybody else, either to Cherokees born after that date or to anybody else. Q. Has that suit been instituted ? — A. Yes, sir ; that suit has been instituted. Q. Where is it pending? — A. That suit is pending in the United States court here. I think it went out on a demurrer, but it is still pending on an appeal. PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 285 By Senator Long : Q. How was it brought ? — A. How was the suit instituted ? Q. Yes, sir. In what way did it come into court? — A. By in- junction. Q. Do you mean by a suit seeking to enjoin the Commissioner from placing them on the roll ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that suit went out of court on demurrer ? — A. Yes, sir ; but it is still pending on appeal. By Senator Beandegee: Q. Has that money been paid over to these minors? — A. No, sir; there is the complaint we wish to make. Of course, it is possible they may take it up by injunction to test the constitutionality of it, but if Congress won't do it that way they will at least ask of Con- gress the right to test it in court to see if it was right. We want to know if that decision is right, and we think we ought to have the right to take any question up involving what this does and have it passed on by the highest court in the land. Q. You mean to ask Congress to authorize a suit to be brought? — A . Yes, sir ; in the Court of Claims. By Senator Teller : Q. To see if Congress had the constitutional authority to add all these new people to the rolls? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Your position is that you dispute the authority of the Dawes Commission to put these people on the rolls? The Chairman. No; I understand it is a complaint about what Congress did. The Commission had the right, and it was their duty to do what they did as long as the law was not declared uncon- stitutional or enjoined by some competent tribunal. — A. Yes, sir. Now we would like to change section 2 of the act of April 26, 1906. At the bottom of section 2 it is i:)rovided as follows : " That nothing herein shall be construed so as to hereafter permit any person to file an application for enrollment in any tribe where the date for filing application has been fixed by agreement between the said tribe and the United States." That is what the act of April 26, 1906, says. Now, I was before the subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs when the committee was considering it, and I objected to it on behalf of the Cherokees ; but this was in there, and I did not believe they would authorize it,, but they did, much to my surprise. Q. What was the effect of that proviso? — A. Well, they did not give the court time to hold anything, for in the Indian ajipropriation act passed in June Congress repealed it. Q. You were depending on tlie prior act that was lost in the shuffle? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It was repealed? — A. Yes, sir. Now it is not a question of whether I am right or whether the Cherokees are right, but it is a question of whether the principle is right, and I think the courts ought to be permitted to pass on it and say whether it is right. The magnitude of the matter would seem to decide this, for there is nearly four millions of dollars' worth of property involved in it, and it seems to us that that is enough to justify a judicial determination of the question. 286 5'IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By Senator Brandegee : Q. You say you want a decision of the court on this question?— A. Yes, sir. Q. If you could get a court decision on that matter, would that satisfy the Cherokees ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You believe it would satisfy them? — A. Yes, sir; I am confi- dent it would. I have known these people all my life and I never knew them to want to do anything that is unreasonable or arbitrary. They are honorable and law abiding and have a very high sense of honor and justice, and when they are satisfied with a thing and know that it is what they ought to have and is right, they will be satisfied. Give them a decision on the matter and that will end it — I am satis- fied it will. Q. If the court shall say that Congress had the right to pass this law, or the jjower to pass this law of 1906, you say the Cherokees would be satisfied with that decision of the court? — A. Yes, sir. They might not be satisfied with it, but they would submit. They are just like other people in that respect; thej may think a decision is unjust, but they submit to the inevitable. Q. They Avould accept it? — A. Yes, sir; of course they would accept it, and I will go as far as to say they would be satisfied with it. The full-blooded Cherokee loves his own country, and he is much attached to his home and family, but they love their own family first like everybody else. Q. This is the provision that was inserted ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It provides another and different thing? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You -were not present when this Avas done? — A. No, sir. I didn't know anything about it until after it was done. Q. You were in Washington and you came home, and this was done after you left there? — A. Yes, sir. I came home and this was done after I came home. I wouldn't say why that was done — the fact remains that it was done. Now, I heard something said here this morning by Mr. Mcintosh about the law of descent and distribution. Now, in that connection I would like to request, if Congress can do it, or has the authority to do it, that these estates shall be vested— that the fee shall be vested — shall vest, I should say, the fee to estates of minor children dying without issue, shall vest in the father or the mother and do away entirely with life estates. I think if it was pro- vided by suitable and proper enactment that they should be the heirs of minor children dying without issue, or it can be taken by the other children — brothers and sisters — any way that you may fix it so as to relieve the uncertainty and confusion that now prevails in regard to what the law is in a case of that kind. All we want is for it to be fixed up in some way so there won't be this life estate intervening. Q. This matter comes up in that way on account of the Arkansas code ? — A. Yes, sir ; and the dispute comes up every time, and a great many lawyers say it is a new acquisition, and others say it is not. I don't think it is a new acquisition, but, on the other hand, lots of good lawyers think it is; so, like doctors, we can't agree on what the law is. I think it is an open question, and should be settled one way or the other. Q. At any rate, it is a troublesome question. — A. Indeed, and it is; and it leads to endless litigation ; and if it can be settled definitely it would be a good thing. It all grows out of that Arkansas code. • FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 287 Q. When was that Arkanses law adopted? — A. In 1902. Q. What do you think about the question of the removal of re- strictions? I am sure that all members of the committee would like to have your views on that subject. I know that I would. By the Chairman : Q. Yes ; we would like to be favored with your views, if you have no objections to stating them. — A. I was just coming to that. I have no objection to stating them. Xow, gentlemen, this question about the removal of restrictions seems to be the question of most special and general interest here in the Territory. It seems to be the all- absorbing question, and you will hear more talk and discussion over that than all other things combined. It seems to be a question that interests everybody. Of course there are various interests involved, such as the mixed bloods, intermarried whites, and the full bloods, freedmen, etc. There are many conflicting interests, although there should not be any conflict of interest. I don't know any better way to illustrate it than by taking the half bloods, as they are called — ^I can speak of them better perhaps than anything else, for that is exactly what I am — that is to say. I am what is called a half blood — and I had the restrictions removed on myself by the Secretary of the Interior. Now, I have my allotments — homestead and surplus — and I haven't sold it, nor have I any intention of selling it, for it is a fine farm, and I am proud of it, and intend to keep it for myself. I am not afraid of taxes either; in fact, I want to pay my taxes — am anxious and willing to take my full share of financial obligation in carrying on the Avork of government. I am a citizen, and I do not desire to avoid or shirk one single obligation that goes along with that privilege. Now, that is the way I feel about it, and I know a good many of the people who feel just the same way that I do. I mention this to show that we don't all feel the same way. Now, while some of us feel this way, there is a good many — quite an element — that don't feel as we do about it. They don't want their restrictions removed, for they don't Avant to pay taxes. They are not progressive and don't care anything much about government as long as they have a reasonably good order. On the other hand we, who feel as I do, know that we can't have good government and the comforts of civilization unless we have that government, so we deem it a privilege to be permitted to con- tribute to the support of that government. We expect to realize the benefit of good government and local improvements and we know these things cost money ; so I say we are willing to paj taxes on our property and all our property wherever situated, but, as I stated, there is a difference of opinion. Some of the half and mixed bloods don't look at it in that light at all, and when you get down to the mixed-blood proposition then you find that you have something diffi- cult to wrestle with. I don't believe — well, I am satisfied that the present law is a bad thing for the full bloods — that is, the law as amended last spring — I am satisfied that it is a bad thing for the full bloods. Q. In what respect do you consider it bad? — A. Well, because the full blood can not handle his allotments at all. He is prohibited from handling it at all. Q. He can not get his restrictions removed at all ?^A. No, sir ; and he can't lease his land. Theoretically, he can, but the procedure 288 . FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. he has to go through and the amount of red tape he has to unwind before getting the approval of the Secretary amounts, practically, to a prohibition. Q. That is not the fault of the law, is it? — A. It is the fault of the enforcement of the law, or the effect of the law, Avhich is the same thing. Q. It is the effect of the regulations imposed by the Secretary of the Interior. — A. Yes, sir. Q. How can the law be blamed for that? — A. The law author- izes and directs the Secretary to allow certain things to be done under certain regulations and he makes the regulations. If it was not for the law we would not have the regulations, and if not the regula- tions we would not have the law. Q. Your idea is that the regulations impose such conditions that it is impossible to comply with them? — A. Yes, sir; that is my idea; there is so much to be done, so many conditions to be met with such a minutia of detail, that it is almost impossible to ever get a thing through. Q. Then, your idea is that these regulations are such as to be im- possible to comply with ? — A. Yes, sir ; I would not like to be conclu- sively required to do all the things that have to be done in their case to get restrictions removed. Q. What remedy have you to propose? — A. Now, you understand this is what we get by being governed at long range. I don't think these are questions that should be settled at Washington. I don't see any reason why they can't be settled right here on the ground and settled in a far more satisfactory manner than by having to get it done in Washington. Now, my idea is that we ought to have right here on the ground some sort of a tribunal with power to adjudicate and pass finally on all these apiolications for removal of restrictions. It is an absurdity to have that done in Washington. There ought to be some tribunal down here to pass on the qualifications of full bloods ; to manage their affairs when applying for removal of restric- tions from the lands of full bloods. Q. Rather than have the Secretary of the Interior do it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. "\^Tiat kind of a tribunal would you suggest ? — A. I don't think there would be anything better than the courts to do it. They are established now and can easily be given additional power to act in that capacity. Q. So you would suggest the courts? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you thinlf the courts are better qualified to try that issue than the Secretary of the Interior down at Washington? — A. Yes, sir; I do. It is 1,.500 miles from here to Washington, and the Secretary has a great deal to do, and I don't imagine, if he had nothing else to do, that he would be better qualified than the court is here. I know that sometimes there .is cases go up there that there is no decision on for months and months, and the length of time it takes to get a deci- sion depends on who the man is that is managing the matter Some people can get them through in short order, and others will have to wait months and even more than a year for a decision. One case may go up there and another one go up months afterAvards, and the last case will be decided long before the first one was. It all depends on who is managing the case down there as to when it will get before FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. . 289 the Secretary. I say this is true not only of applications for removal of restrictions, but it applies to everything else, every piece of busi- ness that comes before the Department from here apparently is in the same boat. I had one case before the -Department, and it was a contest case. He was enrolled as a quarter blood but he is not able to read or write English. Q. You mean you had the case as an attorney or lawver ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You are a practicing attorney ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where are you practicing? — A. My present post-office is over at Fort Gibson, but I have lived at Tahlequah nearly all my life. Q. Tahlequah is the headquarters of what nation, the Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir.. Now, this contest case that I refer to was a well known case. It was well known down in this country. We had fought over it for more than two years, and finally as such things go, it went to Washington. We had lots of trouble before it got there, but it was not a marker to what we run up against after we went there with it. Well, it went to Washington city and it was remanded and sent back here and back it came. The main question in it was that this man George Gritts had been imposed upon on account of not being able to read and write. All of it was contained somewhere in a great big record that had been sent to Washington and from there sent back here again. Now, I was in the case you understand, and when I was at Washington last winter I found in the Indian office that George Gratts's restrictions had been removed pending the decision of this lease question that was involved, the point involved being whether this man George Gritts should get $3,000 or nothing for his lease. This was before this new rule went into effect. Now, it was purely by accident that I found out that his restrictions had been removed, and afterwards a gentleman in Washington told me that he knew at the time it was done all about it. Noav, I mention this matter to show how easy it is to get a thing through that office when you know how to go about it and pull the right wires. It almost got away from me for they had it all primed and fixed, but I managed to nip it, and finally saved for him his money, but it was a close call. There isn't any trouble in getting a thing through down there if you know how to go about it and care to do it. Q. This man had made application to have his restrictions re- moved? — A. Yes, sir; but he made it through somebody else and not through me. I mention this for the reason that it should not have been granted under any circumstances when that other matter was pending, and that while they make a pretense of exercising great care and insist on every technical detail being complied with, yet a matter like this could go through when the right influence is back of it. Well, that was one case. .Now, I had another case — a case of my own minor child, for I am his guardian and I am under bond, but I haven't had to handle any of the monej', although I am the guardian acting or supposed to act under an approved bond. Still, as I say, I don't get the opportunity to handle any of the money. Q. Where is it ? — A. Well, the agent has got it somewhere in some bank and I don't get it. I suppose he has it in some United States depository. 290 . FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. You are under bond? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you give the bond for ? — A. Well, now, you have got me. I really don't know what it is for. I haven't anything of value to handle. I would like to have it, but I can't get it. Q. Does he not deposit it somewhere to your credit? — A. He de- posits it, I suppose, somewhere to the credit of the minor, and I can get it by going to the court and getting an order. Every time I want to draw some money that comes in from royalties or oil, I have to get an order of the court for it, and pay a fee. Q. Is it your child's allotment and you were appointed his guard- ian? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you gave bond ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But you do not handle the money? — A. No, sir; but I could handle it by going to the expense of getting an order of court for it, but that would cost twenty-five or thirty dollars, for I would have to employ an attorney to attend to it for me. I can't handle it myself and I would have to get a lawj^er to do it, and that costs money. I don't see, when I have to give a bond and do give it, why that money should not be paid over to me, for I am responsible with or without the bond, so I don't see why it is not paid over to me. By Senator Long : Q. I think when you are under bond it should be turned over to you ? — A. I think so, too. Q. That is the way we do it in our country. — A. Well, I am telling you the way it is done here. Now, there are two or three things that are done down here that I don't think are right, but I'll let them pass. We Cherokees think that we ought not to be required to give this bond. They require a trust company bond and we don't think it is right. You have to pay for that kind of a bond, and we could give good bonds that wouldn't cost us anything. We think that perhaps the Secretary could act as the guardian of these wards or let the money be turned over to the courts, where it could be obtained on application and the right kind of a showing as to what it was wanted for. Q. Is that system going on here now ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is going on just the same as it has for a long time. Parents have to give this bond for taking care of the allotments of their children. By the Chairman : Q. You are not required to do it, unless you are appointed guardian by the court ? — A. No, sir ; but what difference does it make ? If you are a guardian they won't let you handle the money, and they won't let you make an oil lease, or anything. You can't do a single thing unless you are appointed a legal guardian, and then if you are ap- pointed you can't do anything Avith the allotment, for everything has to be aj^proved by some one — the Secretary or some one else and before you can get any action on it it has exjDired and you have to be ap- 23ointed again, or your bond expires and it has to be renewed, for all of which you have to pay another fee. I have some experience in this matter, for the allotment of my boy is in the oil belt. Q,. And there are royalties coming _in from it ? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 291 By Senator Beandegee: Q. The terms of the oil lease compels the lessee to pay the royalties in to the Indian agent ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is the contract. Q. Wliy is that provision put into the contract? — A. It has to be done imder the rules of the Secretary of the Interior. Q. Then it is a departmental regulation? — A. Yes, sir. That was in his first rules. Back in 1903 I received the first payment myself, and then he changed it all and made a rule that thereafter no money should be paid by the lessee directly to the guardian, but should be paid to the Indian agent. Q. How long have you been a citizen of the United States? — A. Since 1901 ; that is, I was flattering myself that I was a citizen since that time, but according to a ruling of the Secretary of the Interior I am not a citizen yet. I don't know just where I am at. I seem to be some kind of a hybrid citizen, or in a condition of evolution, and I would like some of you gentlemen to tell us just what we are down here anywaj'. We would like to find out. Q. You mean that the law says you are citizens, but he does not allow you to exercise the rights of a citizen. Is that it? — A. That is about it. I had an injunction suit against some attorneys to restrain them from collecting some money that they claimed on ac- count of some eastern Cherokees, and one of my statements in my peti- tion was that I was a citizen of the United States, and I referred to the law of March 1, 1901, showing that all Indians in the Indian Territory at that time were citizens, and as I was there at that time I naturally thought that I was a citizen and justified in so stating. Q. Well, that law is in force yet, is it not? — A. I don't know. I have my doubts about it. Q. Did the Secretary assume to repeal that law ? — A. I don't know what he did, but he said that I was not a citizen, and when you have any business to do with that Department you find out generally that what he says goes, so since he has said that I was not a citizen I pre- sume I am not. Q. Then I gather from the tenor of your remarks that you do not know what you are? — A. No; I don't know what I am; and I am trying to find out. I wish Congress would fix it some time so we'd know just what we are. Congress says we are citizens and the Secre- tary says we ain't ; so there you are. Q. You are not certain whether you are a Cherokee or not? — A. No, sir. Q. And so notwithstanding the fact that Congress has said by its enactment that you are a citizen of the United States, the Secretary says that you are not a citizen ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And he treats you as a noncitizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, I certainly think that that is a condition that needs look- ing mto and remedying. — A. We think so down here, too. By the Chairman : Q. Was not that a general denial under oath? — A. He denied it specifically by a special paragraph. Q. And he did not give any reason for that statement? — A. No, sir ; just denied it and that was all. 292 I'lVE CIVILIZED TMBES. By Senator Tellee : Q. Who was your father? — A. William T. Boudinot. Q. He was born here ? — A. No, sir. Q. "\^liere was the place of his nativity? — A. He was born in Georgia in the old Creek Nation. Q. Are you a relative of E. C. Boudinot? — A. Yes, sir; he was my father's brother. The young man? Q. The old man. — A. Yes, sir; he was my father's brother — my uncle. He is dead now. He died in 1891. Now, gentlemen, that is all I have to say. STATEMENT OE SPENCER STEVENS. By the Chairman : Q. What is your post-office address? — A. Waggoner, Indian Ter- ritory. Q. What is your blood ? — A. I am a Cherokee by blood. Q. What degree is your blood? — A. Half. My mother is a white woman — well I am three-quarters Cherokee. Q. And your father what? — A. Cherokee. Q. Was he a full blood Cherokee? — A. Well, no, about three- quarters. Q. That would make you less than half Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. How old are you? — A. Sixty-six. Q. You are one of the old timers? — A. Yes, sir; but I was born out here in 1840 after the removal to the West. Q. You were born here in the Territory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What have you to say — we are ready for your statement? — A. Well, I came ujj here to see you about a matter that is of interest to me and my people. I am here representing the Cherokees who live about 10 miles north-east of Waggoner in the Indian Nation on Grand River. Q. Are they full bloods ? — A. Full bloods and half breeds or what we call half breeds and quarter bloods. That is the way we are all registered as Indians by the Dawes Commission. Q. What is your business ? — A. Well, I am a professional man. Q. Well, what profession do you follow — a " professional man " is rather indefinite? — A. Well, I am a school teacher. Do you want to know all that I have done in my time? Q. Yes ; if you choose to tell us ? — A. Well, I haven't any objection. I was the auditor of accounts for four years for our nation, and I was school superintendent for six years for my nation, and then I have taught school off and on for about twenty-two years of my life. I have been principal teacher of the male seminary off and on for years and also off and on of the Orphans Home. Q. Well, proceed with your statement. — A. I want to say to your honors that I feel a deep interest in my people. I am very deeply interested in them and in their future, and if I can say anything here to your honors that will impress you with their condition, I will think that the trouble I have been to in coming here has been well rewarded, Away back, when that cruel war came that caused us to separate, the evil people who were seeking the destruction of this nation came FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 293 to me and said to me: "You have been educated by the Cherokee Nation, and you should go with us; " and so it was, they were after this one and that one to go witli them witli the South, or confedera- tion, as they called us, and that caused much dissension and strife amongst us who had heretofore lived in peace and quietness ; it caused much dissension and strife with us, just the same as it had caused in the nation outside of the Territory ; and there was a division hei-e the same as there was there, and some went off with the North and some with the South. There were two regiments that enlisted in the Federal Army — two regiments that enlisted and joined the Federal service on August 11, 1862, at Camp Flat Rock, S miles northeast of Waggoner, and they served three years in the Federal Army, and were mustered out, what was left of them, on May 31, 1865, at Fort Gibson. By the Chairman : Q. Do you remember the number of these two regiments? — A. Yes, sir; there were 2,200 of these men. Q.. I mean the regimental numbers — the numbers of the regiments;, not the number of men in them? — A. Yes, sir. It was the Second and Third Cherokee Indian Home Guards. Q. Infantry, were they? — A. Yes, sir; Indian infantry; 2,200 of them. I remember that gentleman sitting there three years ago; I appeared before him three years ago when he was Secretary of the Interior ; that is Mr. Teller By Senator Long : Q. No, sir ; that is not Mr. Teller.— A. I thought it was Mr. Teller. Q. No, that is Mr. Teller over here [indicating Senator Teller]. — A. Well, that is the gentleman I met, and I was introduced to him by Don Cameron, Senator from Pennsylvania — leave that out, please. By Senator Teller : Q. You are not ashamed of it, are you? — A. No, sir; I am not ashamed of you. Q. Well, you are not ashamed of Don, either, are you? — A. No, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Proceed. — A. I am not ashamed of either of you, but Don was certainly in sympathy with the Secretary of the Interior at that time — Secretary Hitchcock. Q. Were you in the regiment at the time of the war ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. As a private, or what ? — A. Yes, sir ; I was in them. I acted as adjutant of both of these regiments — the Second and Third Cherokee regiments. It seems that you gentlemen want to know something about the Keetoowah Society. I am one of the oldest members of the Keetoowah Society. I was one of its olde t members. I belonged to that society when it was first organized, before the war broke out. A majority of the Cherokee people at that time were opposed to the Con- federate government. They did not want to have anything to do with the war, but they just" had to, for they could not get out of it. If they had their way they would not have taken any sides, but when they had to do something, they went in and cast their lot iuAvith the Government at Washington. They wanted their country just as it was all the time. They "wanted to govern the country themselves just 294 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. as it was in the old days — just as it was dedicated to them by Jefferson, and just as indicated in the patent that was given to them by Martin Van Buren in 1838. The Cherokee people were communists and were fully engaged in that line at that time. That was the purpose of the organization of the Keetoowah Society at that time. Since the war, and after the treaty of 1866 was made and submitted to them for their ratification at Talequah, for the people were called together by their chief and they consented to the ratification of that treaty, and the treaty was ratified by the Cherokee people at that time. So you see that in these days that I am talking about everything was done by the people ; everything had to be submitted to them and ratified by them, before it was binding on the Cherokee people, and that treaty of 1866 was ratified and there was no dissenting voice. , By the Chairman : Q. Who was it ratified by? — A. By the people themselves. Q. Not by the legislature? — A. No, sir; by the people themselves. The people had to ratify or reject all treaties. Q. How did they vote? Was it by ballot?— A. Well, they just stood up and gave their undivided consent to the treaty of 1866. By Senator Brandegee: Q. Without a dissenting voice ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Every man voted for it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it a free vote? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there any charge at any time that the ratification of that treaty was improperly obtained by improper influences? — A. No, sir; I was there present at the time and I know it was all right. Q. It was a free and uncoerced expression of the popular will?— A. Yes, sir. Commissioner Cooley was there at the time — he was there at Fort Smith after the cruel war was over, and he met the northern Cherokee delegation and the southern Cherokee delegation, headed by E. C. Boudinot. Q. What do you mean by the northern and southern delegations?— A. These that were in the northern army and the ones that were in the southern army — for some of them, I am sorry to have to admit, went with the South. The northern delegation was headed by Chief John Eoss and the southern delegation was headed by E. C. Boudinot Q. How manjr Cherokees went with the Southern Confederacy?— A. Well, we considered that there Avas one regiment, but the south- ern Cherokees mixed them up with the Texans and a great many white men who were here at that time. Q. Were there as many Cherokees that went Avith the South as went with the North? — A. No, sir. Q. There were more went with the North than with the South?— A. Yes, sir. Q. The regiment that went with the South consisted of about 1,000 men ? Is that right ?^A. Yes, sir. I think that was about it. Now, Commissioner Cooley was there at Fort Smith and he heard these delegations, for I was sitting there in the house at that time. I was secretary at that time for Chief John Ross. It is not necessary for me to tell you that there was a heated debate and what was said on both sides, but I will leave that where it is; but Commissioner Cooley told them that he would have to recognize the northern Cherokees, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 295 and that he would receive and recognize their delegation in Wa.sh- ington; and he said he wanted them to come there with credentials for the purpose of negotiating that treaty of ISGd. The southern Cherokees were not satisfied, and the,y appointed a delegation to go to Washington too, and they went there and remained there and watched over the matter until everything was consummated. By the Chairman : Q. That is until the treaty was consummated? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Brandegee : Q. At that time had the southern Cherokees returned to their country up here? — A. The southern Cherokees commenced return- ing to this country after Commissioner Cooley had held that meeting at Fort Smith. He requested them to return to their homes. Q. Where were they when they sent this delegation to this meet- ing? — A. The southern Cherokees at that time were down south here, some in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and some' in Texas. By Senator Teller: Q. That was a year after the close of the war? — A. Yes, sir; more than that. Q. Why had they not come home before? — A. Well, the reason, your honor, that they did not come home before was because the Cherokees were bitterly divided. They were utterly divided by the war. Q. The John Ross party was the strongest party at that time in the nation?— 'A. Yes, sir; his party Avould not let them come, and the others were begging for peace. Q. Yes ; I remember all about that. By the Chairman : Q. Proceed. — A. Well, I have told you about it up to the time that treaty of 1866 was ratified, and now comes the dissatisfaction after the treaty. After fifteen or twenty years the people began to talk as they were watching the acts of Congress, thinking that the time would come when these people would want to allot their lands, for they know that the treaty of 1866 made provision for the allot- ment of their lands. The Cherokees, both north and south, after that act passed — they elected a man named Louis Downing chief. Louis Downing was the colonel of the Third Cherokee Regiment, and so he was elected chief, and he was called the "peace chief," having been elected after the peace — and there was peace after that time. Yes, there was peace after his election, and the Cherokee people prospered. Now, before the war the Cherokees were very prosperous; they had cattle and horses and hogs, and lots of every- thing, but the war destroyed all of that. They were robbed and everything they had was stolen, and they could not stay in this coun- try at all, but after the Avar and after the time that Louis Downing, the "peace chief," was elected, there Avas peace in the land and it was not long before there Avas plenty, and there has been jDlenty ever since. The Cherokee people t©-day are prosperous. Yes, gentle- men, the Cherokee people as a class to-day are prosperous. 296 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. It is true that there is a little poverty among them, just the same as there is among the whites or any other class of people, but take the Cherokee people altogether and they are prosperous. When I say " Cherokees," I mean both north and south, and the Delawares and the Shawnees and the negro freedmen. The Cherokees, in a little while after things settled down became interested in politics — they got to be pretty good politicians, and in their elections they used the darkey as long as they were allowed to remain as a little govern- ment. Now, w^e are taught that we must not tell tales out of school, so I am not going to tell you gentlemen about our little irregularities among ourselves. I will just say that we got to be just about as ex- pert in the game of politics as they make 'em, and we used the negro in the game just about as other people do elsewhere. He was made to think he was a big fellow and was running the show, but — well, there Avasn't much in it for him, after all ; but what matter, it tickled him and didn't hurt us ; but I'll not tell any more about it. I'll just leave that for someone else to tell. Well, I'll not detain you any longer than I have to, and to make a long story short I'll say that the Con- gress of the United States decided, and that was a law for us, that all the Cherokees should be placed under the laws of the United States, or laws that they made specially for us — at any rate we Avent under the laws of the United States, both civil and criminal. Well, that was brought about it M^as seen by the progressive elements in the nation that it was a good thing for them that the laws of the United States had been imposed on us and we were put under the United States judiciary. I don't intend to speak about the little irregularities that there was down here in the courts — I won't say anything about that, for you'll find them everywhere. Nothing is perfect, I suppose, so I'll say that they didn't amount to anything. It was satisfactory, taking it all in all. The truth is, gentlemen, that there is a lot of lawless fellows down here, Cherokees — not full bloods, but with enough of something else in them to make them mean — and they have been hampered and worried and sent to the penitentiary. They are men that go around and sell a pint of whisky here and a quart there — bootleggers, I mean — and there is a lot of our people that like to take a drink of whisky when they can get it. I admit that they oughtn't to want it, but they do, and these bootleggers is about the only fellows that can get it for them, and then, on the other hand, the United States has a set of officers clown here that are pretty hard on the bootleggers and on all violators of the law ; and so this set of men employed by the United States Government has incensed all the people to a great de- gree, about all of which you have read in the papers. Here lately we have been having trouble, and I suppose all you gentlemen are aAvare of the details as they have been reported in the papers. There is a family down here whose name is a familiar name all over the country, I guess, and that is the Wyckliff family. John Wyckliff's family are now outlaws and the officers of the law have been after them for a long time, but they don't get them. Yes, the marshals have been trying to catch them, and in doing so, they have lost one or tAvo men. Q. Do you mean to say the Wyckliff's are employed by the Gov- ernment? — A. No, sir; but the marshals are, and they are trying to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 297 get the Wyckliffs. "Well, they ain't trying very hard now to get them, but they have been trying pretty strenuous. Q. I thought you said the people were incensed at the actions of the officers? — A. That is what I said — they are incensed at the marshals, the United States marshals, and their actions. This has caused a great deal of unpleasantness among the Cherokees — that is, you un- derstand, among a certain element of the Cherokees — the actions of these marshals has caused a great deal of friction and unpleasantness. Now, I want to tell you something about these boys : These boys are the sons of an old Grand Army man. He lives at home and has a nice little farm of his own, and don't molest anyljody, and the facts are that there has been a regular imposition practiced on him about these sons of his that are out in the hills. Q. "Where does he live? — A. In the Saline district, about oi') miles northeast of "\A''aggoner. Now, gentlemen, I wish he was here to-day to tell you the story about how he has been persecuted and hampered and hounded by these marshals; and jon could believe all he would tell you, for he is a truthful man. He is a very truthful man. Q. Do you represent him? — A. I can"t say that I do, but I thought I'd tell you just how it is, for I think you ought to understand it. Q. You said you represented something or somebody? — A. AYell, I thought that I would just tell you about this case because there has been so much in the papers about it, and I thought I would make a try at getting it settled up some way. Q. You say these men are out ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where? — A. In the hills and mountains. Q. VThj are they out? — A. Because the marshals spend most of their time hunting them. Q. AYhy are the marshals hunting them? — A. Because thej^ killed one or two marshals. Q. Oh, that was their oifense — just killed a marshal or two? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that all — A. That's all. [Laughter.] Well, now, it ain't anything to laugh about, and of course they ought not to have killed them; but they had a great deal of provocation, and there is always two sides to everything, and their side has a story, too, that would show they were not altogether to blame. Noav, I ain't trying to ex- cuse the killing of the marshals, but there was a lot of provoca- tion Q. No provocation excuses a deed like that. — A. T know that is so, but there are extenuating circumstances Q. Since you have gone into that matter, in all seriousness, I would ask you Avhether this affray in which one or two marshals lost their lives was an affair where the marshals were seeking to ar- rest them for some violation, or alleged violation, of the law? — A. Yes, sir! the first marshal that they killed, the marshal was after them. Q. What did he want to arrest them for?— A. For selling a little whisky — well, selling a little whisky when nobody is supposed to be looking. Q. For bootlegging ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And in seeking to make that arrest he lost his life ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, what was the second marshal doing when he was seeking S. Kep. 5013, .59-2, pt 1 20 298 J?IVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. to arrest them — ^what was his object or purpose in trying to make the arrest ? — A. It was for killing the first marshal. Q. The second marshal was trying to arrest them for killing an- otlier marshal ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, what happened to him ? — A. He was killed, too. Q. He also lost his life?--A. Yes, sir. Q. That made two of them that lost their lives? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. The first offense was selling whisky ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. And one marshal went out to arrest him and was killed? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And then another one went to arrest them, and he lost out, too? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And so, altogether, how many marshals lost out ? — A. Two. Q. Two were killed? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the rest escaped ? — A. Yes, si'r. Q. And the "Wyckliffs also escaped? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Where are the "Wyckliffs now ? — A. In the hills. By the Chairman: Q. You say that this matter is a cause of friction between the Cherokees and the authorities? — A. Yes, sir; and do you want me to give a reason for it ? Q. Without regard to the reason, I would like to know the fric;- tion that exists? — A. Well, the trouble that exists between the Chero- kees and the United States is murder. By Senator Long: Q. That is, you mean the United States objects to having its mar- shals killed ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. By the Cherokees or any one else? — A. Yes, sir; I suppose so. Q. Is it not a natural supposition that it would object. The Chero- kees do not see anything remarkable in that objection, do they?— A. No, sir. By the Chairman: Q. You do not mean to say that the Cherokees uphold these peo- ple in their attitude of resisting and killing officers who are doing their duty in attempting to enforce the laws? — A. No, sir. Q. I understood you to preface your remarks with the statement that the Cherokee people were peaceable and law abiding, and now you say that the matter of the enforcement of the law is a cause of friction between them and the officers whose duty it is to enforce the law ; and that the fact that in the attempt to enforce the law two offi- cers have been killed is looked upon by the Cherokee people as a cause of friction — and I would infer from Avhat you said that the people sympathized with these murderers. — A. I did not say that. Q. If I am mistaken I would like to be corrected, for that is the gist of what I understood you to say. — A. The Cherokees, or a great many of them, sympathize with the father of these men, who has been persecuted beyond all endurance, and to be plain with you, these boys have a good deal of justification in doing what they did. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 299 They are Indians — more Indian than anything else — and they have some old remnants of the old Indian idea of justice, and they just took the law in their own hands. It was one of these cases where Q. We don't care about hearing the details of the matter, for in our opinion nothing will excuse a crime of that character. — A. Well, that is all right. It is quite a little story, and it would take some time to tell it, but I think if you heard it it would help you to understand the situation. By Senator Long : Q. I would like to hear it, and if it is not too long, you might as well tell it, for anything that sheds light on the unfortunate situation is welcomed. — A. Well, the Wycklifis are called " night hawks " — now, that is a name that has not been used to-day. Senator Teller. We heard it at Vinita. — A. They belong to that organization, and they have withdrawn from the Keetoowahs, and those of the Cherokees who have come forward and taken their allotted land, they do not have anything to do with. These men be- long to that organization, and that organization is in touch with them in their acts. By the Chairman : Q. In what acts? — A. In these unlawful acts. Q. The night hawks are ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And these Wyckliffs are night hawks? — A. Yes, sir. Q^ How many of these Wj^ckliffs are there? — A. Three brothers. Q. How many night hawks are there? — A. I don't know. Q. Have you no idea of their number? — A. No, sir; all I know is that they have an organizatioii that goes by that name, and there is sixteen of them in my neighborhood. Q. You do not belong to them ? — A. No, sir. Q. Do they justify the killing of marshals or look with approval on such acts. — A. Well, I don't know how they look on that. Mar- shals can't do much out there in those hills among the jDCople that are there. Q. Do you mean to say that these Wyckliffs are being protected by these night hawks? — A. Yes, sir; that is my opinion. I don't think there is any doubt about it. Q. Do you know about how many of them there are? — A. No, sir; I can't say ; but there are quite a number of them in every district in the nation. It is a secret organization that I know nothing about. Q. I suppose they justify the killing of the marshals on the ground that they ought not to have been arrested ? — A.' Yes, sir. Q. Why? — A. Well, they don't believe they ought to have been arrested. Q. Why? Because they had not been guilty of any unlawful net?— A. Well, they claim that there has been impositions imposed on them from the beginning, and they went out there — the marshals did— and they tried to get one of the liquor sellers, and in doing that they shot one of the Wyckliffs, and that wasn't right. Q. The marshals shot one of them ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they kill him?— A. No, sir. Now I think that is some- thing that ought to be considered. Q. Why should it be considered ?— A. Well, you ought to consider the provocation. 300 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Q. What do you think we could do about it? — A. Well, your notice of it would be like this — in creating this new constitution and State, it could be pardoned, and it could be done in creating the new State. It has always been customary with the Government of the United States in m.aking new treaties with the Indians, that if there were any Cherokees that had violated the law to forgive them the past, and let them come home and be law-abiding men again. Q. Oh, I see; you want the Government of the United States to pardon these men? — A. Yes, sir; I think it would be a good plan; for if it is necessary to let us have an amnesty, let us have it, and let us have peace. We have had trouble enough doAvn here. Q. I understand now what you mean; but you have been a long time beating around the bush. — A. Yes, sir. Q. Proceed with your statement. — A. Well, that will do for the Wyckliffs. Now, gentlemen, when the Dawes Commission was cre- ated, with the Honorable Dawes at the head of it, the Cherokee Nation rejoiced to know that he Avas at the head of this Commission. It pleased us all to know that, and that it was created to be under an honest man, and they accepted this Commission, and the Commission came here and located, and Avent to work. I have had some thing to do with that Commission, and I want to say for that Commission, that as far as I have ever been able to examine into it or pry into it — I may use the word " pry " — I am compelled to do it on account of the others using it — what I mean to say is that as far as I know, all their public and official acts have been honorable. Yes, gentlemen, I want to say that for that Commission. Now, in connection with the Curtis Act passed by the last Congress, I have told my people that the Secre- tary of the Interior was acting under an act of Congress, and that those laws which they thought were being made by the Secretary of the Interior were really made by Congress, and he wasn't doing any- thing but carrying out these' laws. I have told them that he was simply a servant of the GoA^ernment or the people, and that his rulings were entirely in their interest, for he didn't have any other idea than their protection. I have taken special pains to tell them just how that was, for a good many of them are rather ignorant when it gets down to a thing like that, and they can't understand it unless it is explained to them by people Avho know hoAv to do it. Now, un- fortunately, after the Cherokees began to enroll, there was a class of men in the Cherokee nation Avho took some of these full bloods out and filed them on oil lands. Now, these men have tried to get the restrictions on these, people removed after they filed on the oil land, so they can buy it from these people for a trifle, for these men that filed them had it in their mind all the time that they Avould get this oil land. They did not take them out of their homes in the hills and file them on oil lands for nothing. Well, noAv, the average Cherokee don't knoAv Avhat a township is or what a section or range is, or any- thing about it. He has always been independent and not confined to any special piece of ground, for he had the Avhole nation to roam over and he could make his home anywhere where it had not prior to that time been occupied. He did not know what oil land was or what it meant, and he did not care much about it, and so they would take him out and shoAv him the land and get him to allot it, and I know that is the way it was done, for I have done it myself lots of times. Quite a FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. , 301 lot of men were in the same business that I was, and we would take them and file them in the Cooweescoowee district. Q. What is that name? — A. Cooweescoowee; that is the Indian name of the old chief, John Ross; that is his Cherokee name; and, gentlemen, that is where and how all the trouble originated in the Cooweescoowee district. Q. "\ATiere is that district? — A. It is north of here — north of the Arkansas River and west of the Grand River. Q. That is where the oil field is? — A. Yes, sir; there is where Chelsea, Coodys Bluff, AUewee, and Nowata districts are located. They are all headquarters for the oil men. They went over to Bar- tlesville to find how deep they would have to go and the shallow drilling is west of the Verdigris River and the deep drilling east of it. Q. The time you showed these Cherokees the land, when you say they did not know anything about a township or a range or section, and which they were to allot and did allot, did you at that time know that these lands were oil lands? — A. Well, there was not much to go on at that time — they were just guessing at it, and hoping that it would be. Q. Well, did you know it was oil land ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the Indians know it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Both you and the Indians who were allotting the land knew that it was oil land? — A. Well, it was this way. We had reason to think that it was. There wasn't any development done that would prove it conclusively, but we were hoping that it would turn out to be. We were guessing at it, and it turned out all right. Some of these Indians that we got to file on this land have reaped thousands and thousands of dollars in royalties out of it. Now, I say that some of these men that wanted to get the Indians to file on this land were rascals and wanted to cheat them or get the best of them if they could, but I want to say this, that these developers — two- thirds of them — have been honest and square with the Indians. Q. I am sure that all the committee will be glad to hear that. It is rare to hear of anyone who has been honest with the Indians. — A. Well, two-thirds of them down here have been square with them and the Indians, as a rule, have not any reason to complain. They have got thousands and thousands of dollars out of this land in royal- ties, and it has made some of them rich. You will find out, I think down here, that the ones that rant most and make the loudest noise against this restriction business are the ones that are after the oil lands. They want to get the land away from the Indians. You Avill find every time that they are the ones that are interested in the oil lands. Q. Who do you mean by that? — A. I mean Cherokees that live in the Coweescoowee district. They have filed on oil lands, and that is where the trouble is. These speculators or grafters are after the land and they have contracts made to get it at a low price, and if they can get the restrictions removed from the full bloods they will purchase it at that price. Q. That brings up the question of the removal of restrictions. What do you think about the removal of restrictions on the full bloods and the half breeds ? — A. Well, I am glad that you have asked me that question. I have lived here all my life and I think — I flatter 302 «FIVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. myself — that I know as much about it as anybody. Now my friend Boudinot, when he was answering that question, said that he was glad to know or'believe that he was a citizen of the United States ; but there was a little hinge on it, it appeared, and I am in the same position. Although I am a citizen according to the law, still I am a ward of the Government, and, like Boudinot, I don't know what I am. That is what the Secretary says, and it is just possible that he intends to keep us in that condition until the affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes are settled up. Now, the Curtis Act made provisions for taking care of these little children until they came of age, and I have always told my people that, taking it all around, the best things that was ever did along that line was to adopt the provisions of the Arkansas law on that subject. Heretofore they have spent every cent of the income of his estate, and when the child would come of age he would not have a cent to go on, and, as it is now, when the child reaches maturity or comes of age he has a home provided for him, and the law now is that whoever is the tenant on that place must make him a home, and he must do it under the direction of the court. The Curtis Act has arranged it so that the Cherokees can't handle that money only for the benefit of the Cherokee child. Now, I say, it is a fine and commendable thing that you men have done for the Five Civilized Tribes. You have before you the" example of the Cheyennes and all the other Indians, who are worse off, under the Government, and its trying to protect them and preserve them. You will frequently hear people say that the restrictions ought to be removed, and people who are friendly to us think so — lots of them. Now, we have recognized the United States as our friend. It has had a difficult proposition to tackle and I believe it has clone the best it could under the circumstances, but we expect it to deal out justice to us and see that justice is done to each individual. Q. What has that to do with the question I asked you? — A. I am coming to that. Now comes the question of the removal of re- strictions. I am opposed to it. I don't believe it is right. The United States has done many bad things for us while trying to do right, but the worst thing the Congress of the United States ever did for this people was to give them the right to sell their soil. They ought to have been compelled to keep it and not sell it until they got out of this jumble they are in to-day. You must take into considera- tion the education of these people. A great many of them don't speak the English language, and when they are talking with people who do speak English they must speak through interpreters, and half the time they don't know what is being said to them. They will say they do, but they don't. You have seen them here to-day who had to say '^^'hat they did say to you through interpreters. Their education is slight, and their knowledge nothing of what this Curtis Act means. Some of them absolutely don't understand any- thing about it. You can't understand the ignorance of some of these people ; some of them told me to-day as I was coming through Waggoner that they did not understand that you were coming here, and they are not the ignorant class either, some of them are prom- inent Cherokees. Now, I am opposed to the removal of restrictions from any of them, but if the restrictions are removed from any of FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 303 them at all it should be from the ones that are over 60 years of age, for they won't be here very long and their age is against their spend- ing their means as foolishly as a young man would. If you remove the restrictions ninety-nine out of a hundred of them would sell everything they have, and they haven't as a rule anything but land, but they would sell it as soon as they could, and in six months they would not have land or anything. They would be paupers and a charge on the public. Now, this applies to the mixed bloods only, for I don't believe it should be removed at all on the full bloods. Q. What about the mixed bloods? — A. Well, I said that they should keep their land, too. I said if the restrictions were removed on any it should be on the aged and not at all on the younger ones, and not at all on the full bloods under any circumstances. The Indians should have learned long ago that they are no match in busi- ness for the white man. They ought to have learned long ago that it is the disposition of the Anglo-Saxon race to get hold of everything that is in sight and hang on to it, and if these restrictions were removed it would not be a year until the white men would have almost everything there is in the whole country and the Indians would have nothing — neither land nor money. I have heard that it has been advocated before you that the restrictions ought to be removed from the half breeds and mixed bloods. Now as I said, I have lived all my life among these people, and I say that nothing of the kind should be done. I assert it as a fact that many of these half breeds as they are called, are more improvident than the average full blood. Yes, sir; there is lots of the mixed blood that live among our Cherokee people and are allottees of land that are more improvident than many full bloods. You can take the freedmen element — you removed the re- strictions from them — and what is the result ? They are worse off and poorer to-day than ever. They have built poor little houses all over the country and they are not doing anything — poorer a good deal than they were, and their surplus lands are all in the hands of the grafters and the real estate men. I don't believe any Indian, with few exceptions, is capable of taking care of his own business. Q. You have an allotment, have you not? — A. Yes, sir. Q. By the Secretary ? — A. Yes, sir ; he removed mine, without much about it, for it came very quick to me, and I could not understand how it was I got it so quick, but I got it. I know that I have to pay taxes, and I feel good about it, for I fall in line with Mr. Boudinot and say that it is a fine thing to pay taxes. Q. So you are willing to pay your taxes ? — X. Yes, sir ; it makes a fellow feel like a man to pay taxes. Q. Have you kept your land ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have, and I have it all in cultivation, and my wife's land, too; but we are old people and would like to have things arranged so we could rest the balance of our days. Perhaps some of these days we will get that arranged. Now there is another thing that I agree with my friend Boudinot about, and that is that we should have somebody or some court or tribunal down here Avhere these things could be arranged without having to go to Washington with them. It should be settled here in court right at home, where the court can meet these people face to face and see what kind of people they are and make a guess at their busi- ness capacity. If restrictions are to be removed at all, right here is 304 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. where it ought to be decided. Now I have this to say about our Secretary of the Interior, and I suppose I liave had about as much worli to do with tlie Secretary of the Interior as any man that sits in tliis room. I have tliis to say about him, that he has acted lionorably with us, every time he has, and if a man has a just cause he can get justice there every time. Of course the grafters are not satisfied with liim, for he has stood in their way all the time, but he has been the Indians' friend, and the poor man's friend, and has protected them all the time. No grafter can get the better of his ignorance if thii Secretary knows it, and while they cuss him down here, the time will come when everybody will acknowledge it. I want to put myself on record on that right now. By Senator Long : Q. Do you think you reflect the general sentiment on that propo- sition down here? — A. Yes, sir [laughter] ; I do among the people who are not grafting, and think. Now, I-have just one more thing to say, your honors, and I am satis- fied that you can fix thar. These Cherokee people who speak the Cher- okee language mostly want it arranged with Mr. Benedict that in their own schools they can have their own teachers, and on that point, we have the Curtis bill, which states that where the examination is equal and the teachers are fit that our people shall have their own teachers, who will be allowed to take charge of the work of teaching. Now we ask that that be allowed, for our people are interested in it very much. Q. Do 3'ou speak Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir; in a way. I speak English better than Cherokee. I am, when I trj to speak Cherokee, like a German trying to speak English ; I don't speak it very well. Q. Do you read it? — A. Yes, sir; I can read it very well. I tried to teach it in school, and did too, but I found that it was not akin to any other language. It is simply a dialect, and there is no useful object served by trying to keep it up. Q. Are there many of your people who read and write it — Chero- kee ? — A. Yes, sir ; a good many. ^ Q. How about English ? — A. There is more of them that can read and write English. About three-fourths of them read and write English, and a good many of them write their own language when they can't speak it. I wanted Mr. Mercer to make his report to you in the Cherokee language; that I did not know what to do; and then have Mr. Dick translate it for you. Now, there are lots of the Indians that can't speak English, but that is not any reflection on their intelligence. Here is the case of David Muskrat, who made' a talk before you. I know him right well, and he is a good man and an intelligent man, but he can't speak English. By the Chaiesian : Q. I understand you to say that in your judgment the restrictions ought not to be removed from the lands of either the full bloods or the mixed bloods ? — A Yes, sir ; that is my position. Q. As a general proposition, I also understood you to say that you are anxious to have a stable and proper system of State and city and county governments installed in your State, and also school dis- tricts? — A. Yes, sir. Q. As a practical proposition, how would you go about supporting mVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 305 the school district and the county and State governments, if the land was to remain as it is, nontaxable ? I am asking this simply for the purpose of getting your ideas as to how that should be done. — A. Have Congress erase the sentence that pertains to exemption from taxation and let us pay taxes just the same as you or any other white man does on his property. Q. Do you believe that that course would meet with the approval of these people who hold these lands, and whose land has been given to them with the understanding that as long as they should continue to hold them they would not have to pay taxes? — A. Well, I sup- pose they are like any other people — they don't want to pay taxes if they can get out of it. Q. They would not care to pay taxes? — A. No, sir; I am sorry to say that they are not a progressive people, and they don't want to pay taxes. It takes a patriotic man, in the broadest sense, who is willing to come forward and pay his pro rata of taxes. Q. And that you are ? — A. I "don't know about that. I am willing to pay my taxes, anyway. By Senator Teller: Q. Would they not refuse to pay the taxes or neglect to pay them, and in that way allow the property to be sold and so dispose of their land without reference to the restrictions put on them ? — A. Yes, sir ; perhaps they would. Q. In that case what would you do ? — A. Let them sell it. Q. You realize that in a Government of this kind, where a tax is levied on property and it is not paid, that property is subject to levy and sale to pay the ta-xes? — A. Yes, sir; if it wasn't nobody would pay their taxes. Q. Well, would not people take charge of it and let it be sold, and would not the Indian in that way lose some advantage that he would have if he was allowed to sell it direct? — A. Now, your honor, I want to say this, that we have been seventy years trying to get ready for citi- zenship, and we are not more ready for it now than we were when we commenced. There were men among us then that were fit to become citizens, and good ones, and there are men among us now that are ready for citizenship — lots of them. You just look at the works of the Boudinots and read the constitution of 1849, and see what they wanted to give us. Q. There were only a few of them that could write in these days. — A. Well, that is all right. There are lots of them can do it now. A man don't have to write — to' be able to write to do business. There are lots of white men right here in this Territory to-day who sign their name by a mark, and they are good business men ; lots of them. So the fact that a man either white or red or black can't write is no sign that he don't know what is good for him. He may know what his interest is and not be able to read or write. Lots of these men have good natural common sense, but they were situated so when young that they did not have a chance to learn these things. Now, if a man of that kind is fit to own land, he is going to see that the taxes are paid, and if he is that class of man that is so ignorant that he don't know how to look out for himself, he hasn't any land or anything that he will have to pay taxes on. Now, you take people and let them 306 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. know that the land is their home, and that they have all the obliga- tions and duties of a citizen to perform, and that the giving of this home is the last act that the Congress of the United States will have to do to them, and that they have given them this land as was promised in the treaty of 1835, to be theirs as long as grass grows and water runs, and he knows if he sells it he is responsible to himself and no one else, and the same is the case if he lets it be sold for taxes. By Senator Brandegee : Q. You state in effect — I do not know that you put it in these words^that where an oil man has induced an Indian allottee to take his allotment in the oil fields, if the restrictions were removed from the Indian's land the oil man would buy it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. At his own price ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You mean by that that at the time the oil men induced the Indian to locate there, he already had an agreement with the Indian that if he did get his restrictions removed, he, the Indian, would sell it at a certain price? — A. Well, I don't know what other men have done in that way, but I have done acts like that myself, "and I will only answer for myself. Q. You have done that yourself? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Often ? — A. Well, several times. Q. Is it your opinion that that is generally done? — A. You want my opinion? Q. Yes, sir ; that is what I asked for. — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then it is your opinion that that is done frequently?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Would it not have been for the benefit of the Indian if at such times his restrictions had been fully removed and he had been left free to deal with the oil man, who had been instrumental in removing his restrictions ; and not only to deal with that oil man but with other oil men — make the best bargain he could? — A. Yes, sir; I think it would have been a good thing. Q. You think it would have been a good thing had the land been without restrictions? — A. Yes, sir; but the Indian would in many cases have got the Avorst of it. Q. But still you think it would have been a good thing? — A. Yes, sir ; on the whole it would. We have our rings and bosses down here the same as everywhere. Senator Long. Q. You are speaking about the Cherokees ? — A. Yes. sir ; and the white men, too. By the Chairman : Q. Then your opinion is that it would be worth more to the Indian if the restrictions were removed as far as the bonus or price that the Indian would get for it is concerned? — A. Yes, sir; because it does not charge him up with the cost of getting the restrictions removed. The man that gets them removed gets paid for his trouble every time, and the Indian has to pay for it. Q. By taking a smaller price for his holding? — A. Yes, sir. Bjr Senator Brandegee : Q. Still, you think the oil man may get the land at his own pri«, or a very small price ? — A. No, sir. Q. That follows, does it not? — A. No, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 307 Q. "VNIiy not ? — A. Because the Secretary will see that it is paid for at the appraised price, or more. He won't approve it unless it is. That is where he protects the Indian. That is the reason the oil men are down on him. He stands between them and the Indians and won't let them swindle the Indians. That is where the trouble is. You will hear from them before you leave the Territory; they will have a terrible kick to make about that. Q. Why do you not want them removed? — A. It has gone so far now it is the business of the Congress of the United States to take care of them in most ways here. Q. So then you do not want the restrictions removed? — A. Well, it is the business of Congress to attend to that, for it has passed an act making them citizens of the United States. Q. You do not answer my question. Under present conditions, what do you think Congress ought to do ? — A. I think they ought to pass an act taking all the restrictions off the half breeds and leave it on the full bloods. Q,. Why leave it on the full bloods? — A. Because, they are not as capable of taking care of themselves. Lots of the half bloods are not competent to tak^ care of themselves, but they are no worse off than white men, for lots of white men are not capable of doing so. Q. Then, I did not understand your previous statement, for I un- derstood you to say awhile ago that you did not believe the restric- tions should be taken off either the half breeds or the full bloods. I can not reconcile your statement then with your statement now. — A. Well, I say that the restrictions ought to be taken off the half breeds and kept on the full bloods unless you want to do as you do with other Indians in the United States — keep them and feed them for an indefinite time or let this new State feed them. Q. So you think the half breeds would get rid of their property ? — A. Sure. Some of them would be all right, but the most of them would not. Q. And you think as far as the half breeds are concerned, and when you say '" half breeds " you mean the Indians of mixed blood, that their restrictions should be removed? — A. Yes, sir. I believe that the greatest curse that could occur to this country would be to take the restrictions off the full bloods indiscriminately, and the same would be true of the negroes and half breeds, too, but it is a question of the greatest good to the greatest number, so on the whole I'd take them off the half breeds and leave them on the full bloods. If there was a court established down here that had j)ower to hear applications from full bloods and grant them on proof that they were conipetent — that is the right way to do it, but I wouldn't advocate doing it in any other way. That is all. STATEMENT OF MR. J. S. MTJRCHISON. By the Chairman : Q. What is your post-office address? — A. Tahlequah, Ind. T. Q. What is your business or occupation? — A. I am attorney for the Cherokee Nation, or rather for the full-blood Cherokees in the white man's suit and also in the negro cases. Q. Are you an Indian? — A. No, sir; I am not an Indian at all. 308 S'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. I am a full-fledged citizen of the United States. Now, with regard to the negro question : The Indians have felt all .along that the negro should not get anything and did iiot get anything in the Cherokee country by the treaty of 1866 — that is, he did not get anything except- ing political rights by that treaty of 1866. On an investigation as an attorney I advised the Indians that I did not think that the negroes got any land under that treaty, and that in my opinion the only thing they got was the political rights, and that I did not think they got any property rights by that treaty, for it is well understood that property, as such, can pass only by grant. The treaty of 1866, on behalf of the Cherokees, was made at about the same time as the treaty between the United States and the Creek Indians, and the same language was used in both treaties as to the rights of the freedmen in both nations up to a certain point. In the Creek treaty it is pro- vided — I forget which article it is in in the Creek treaty, but in the Cherokee treaty it is article 9 — in the Creek treaty it was provided that these freedmen, describing them, shall have the right of native Creeks, including the money and funds of the Creek Nation, whereas in the Cherokee treaty the provision only goes so far as to give them the rights of native Cherokees. Now, on that ground, and for that reason, and finding the rules laid down by the Supreme Court of the United States as to the construction of the law, I believed, and do believe now, that they have no right to participate in this property. The 'Whitman case in the Court of Claims is the Cherokee Freedman case, and that case went off on an entirely different point, and that is, I think, taking the reasoning of the court — I believe the Court of Claims in reaching this conclusion violated every rule governing the construction of law in order to reach that conclusion in giving these freedmen the right they gave them. I believe that if the Cherokees had understood the situation and had appealed this case to the Supreme Court of the United States the error would have been detected and there would have been no such rights claimed by the freedmen in the Cherokee Nation, nor would there have been any freedmen in the Cherokee Nation now. Now, under that state of facts, we knew the difficulty in reaching Congress. The committees of Congress have but one hour in which a person is allowed to present a case, and the difficulty or rather the impossibility of making an effective presentation of any matter of the importance and intricacy of this matter was apparent. It was impossible to argue and present propei'ly to any committee of Congress a question of the importance and intricacy that this possessed, and feeling this disadvantage, I sought to raise the question by seeking by injunction proceedings to restrain the allotments of lands to a freedman of the Cherokee Nation. Mr. Dick, the interpreter of the Indians, had al- lotted on a piece of land of a Cherokee freedman whose right is per- fect if the right of any freedman is perfect, but he was on the roll of '80, and you gentlemen know the significance of that roll after it has been examined by the committee and approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Dick had selected that piece of land and this freedman contested his right to the allotment, or to the land being al- lotted to Mr. Dick, and I sought to restrain the Commissioner from considering that contest on the ground that the negro had no right to any land in the Cherokee Nation. I denied his citizenship, or rather FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 309 not his citizenship but his right to allot land, as the Supreme Court has decided in one case that citizenship did not necessarily carry with it any property rights. Previous to that, however, the Cherokee Nation had sought to restrain the application of the freedmen to be enrolled — that is, had sought to restrain the Commissioners from en- rolling them. That suit was brought in this district, and the judge of this district held that under the law the courts were prohibited from restraining the Commission in dealing with this matter, and by that decision giving the Commission jurisdiction in this matter of en- rollment. Now, I think that decision was correct, but this raised another question and a demurrer was filed against it, and in order to get the matter before the court of appeals, and I had prepared my pleadings so as not to anticipate any pleadings, and I think I did right, but at the request of the court I filed an amended complaint in which I set up the defense and then attempted to knock it down, which any lawyer knows is a bad practice in pleading, but I did that in order to get the case before the court of appeals. Well, the demurrer was sustained in the court below and the case went to the court of appeals and the court below was sustained by the court of appeals in an opin- ion which shows that the court clearly thought that we were trying to restrain the enrollment of these negroes, which was another case entirely. That case went up to the Supreme Court, but in the mean- time the Commissioners proceeded to hear the contest, and passed it up to the Secretary, and before we could get our appeal to the Su- preme Court the Secretary of the Interior decided the case in favor of the freedmen, and so we had nothing but the abstract question to present to the Supreme Court. It is our intention in some way, preferably, if Congress will allow us to do so, to get it into the Court of Claims or the supreme court of the District of Columbia, or in the Supreme Court of the United States. The Indians claim that this allotment is premature, and that it can not legally be made until the rights of the various citizens to allotments are decided by the courts, for the Department, they claim, has not sufficient power under the Constitution to declare of the par- ties under the law. Now, I won't refer to this again. So much for the negro question. I believe that one of the Senators said that the claim of an Indian tribe never dies; and I imagine that Senator Teller has had expe- rience as a member of committees long enough to verify that state- ment; and the Indians, it appears, are rather persistent in this matter. Senator Teller. If they were not persistent they would never get fustice down there at Washington. Mr. MuRCHisoN. Yes, sir; and I think the Indians recognize the fact that they have a friend in you when they can satisfy you that they are right. By Senator Long: Q. You are an attorney? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And an intermarried white? — A. Yes, sir; I am one of them. Q. How many of them are there? — A. I believe the records show that there are 3,620 that have applied. Q. And are on the rolls? — A. No, sir. When we began suit the Secretary of the Interior had approved the rolls, or the enrollment, 310 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. of l,li5, and we presented the matter to the Department in such a way as to satisfy the Assistant Attorney-General of the United States who is now on the circuit bench, and he advised the Commissioner not to act on them until action was taken. Q. At that time there were about 1,100 of them, you say? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That had been enrolled? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And had taken their allotments ? — A. Well, they had up to the time of the filing of the suit, which was the 24th of February, 1903. Up to that time they had taken their allotments just the same as any Indian had taken allotments, but of course the Secretary stopped all enrollment and allotments of land; but they were permitted after a long time to come in and take what w-as termed by the Dawes Com- mission and held the allotments — that is, to designate a piece of land, which, if they were permitted to locate, would finally be allotted to them. Q. And this has not been allotted to any person since? — A. No, sir; excepting where they took possession or charge of it under the Commissioners order permitting them — that is permitting these white men who had reserved these rights and who had allotted with Indian families on public domain — that is, they were allotted where there were Indian families which had made the improvements on the land. They were under these conditions permitted to take the land, which was a just and desirable decision. The court found that the Cherokee Nation had not granted these white men any rights — that is, property rights. Now, on this matter of descents and distribution. We are now in a very, very unfortunate condition in this country on that question. I think the Senators wdio investigated in the investigation i^rogramme, the bill that was returned by the committee in the Senate, and which is now known as the " Curtis Act," will remember that in the original bill that went to the Senate, and perhaps, as it passed the Senate— but I am not certain about that — was the provision repealing the Arkansas statutes on that question and putting in place thereof cer- tain sections of the laws of Oklahoma. I think objection was found to that, because it would produce a very confusing and unfortunate situation. Well, all I have to say as to that is that it was very unfor- tunate that it did not pass. Now, chapter 49, sections 25-52, in the Arkansas statute, makes the usual provision for descent and distribution to children first and their descendants, and on failure of children to the father — but I will read the section (reading it). Now that is practically a common- law rule of descent. But this statute goes on and deals with illegiti- mate children and children of the half blood, etc., and it has nothing to do with this question; but when it comes to section 2531, which reads like this: "in cases where the intestate shcU die without de- scendants" (reading it). Now the courts of Arkansas have held that if there be a father, and it is a new acquisition, the fathers kindred, although of equal degree of blood, take exclusive of the mother's descendants until they are exhausted, and if they found none of that class then it goes back to the children. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 311 By the Chairman : Q. What does it mean by "new acquisition?" — A. Well, now there you have got me, for that is what we are trying to make out. That is the very thing we are trying to find out. Q. Have they not interpreted it ? — A. The courts ? Q. Yes, sir. — ^A. Well, they have in this way: It is a matter of purchase. The court has held that where the father paid the land- office fees where the son homesteaded that it becomes an ancestral matter, by reason of the father having paid the land-office fees, or the homestead fees. Now, a definite settlement of this question is important to the In- dians to have this question determined on account of the probate situation. Now, our Indians have always been accustomed to manag- ing and handling whatever property came to their children. These things consisted at that time, or up to this time, of such payments as came to the children from the Government of the United States. Well, I believe the Government of the United States never made any payments direct to the people, but made it through the Cherokee government or the government of the Cherokee Nation. Under the regulations of the President, prescribed in section 464 I think of the Revised Statutes, they are made the guardian of their children generally — all Indians who are tribal Indians are guardians of their children. Now, under this statute it is provided, probably under the provision of the chapter relating to guardianships, that a parent need not take out letters of guardianship on the estate of his child that is not a new acquisition. Now, the courts have proceeded on the theory that that is a new acquisition, and they have required that they make an agricultural lease on the land for 15 cents an acre. It was only the other day that an Indian came to me and wanted me to collect the sum of $8 for one year's rent on 80 acres of land from a man who did not even pay that little sum. Now, a man does not miss that so much, particularly since the oil agitation, and I understand that agricultural pursuits in the oil region have practically been destroyed by the soil industry, but that is neither here nor there. I simply make thi^ digression to give you some idea of the conditions. Reverting to the question we were considering — if the land that comes is an ancestral estate the parent or parents may handle it without the ex- pense of a bond or fees of court. Now, this question may seem trivial, but, gentlemen, it is really a serious question. In order to procure, an order for $2 it will cost an Indian $7.50. This may seem extravagant and impossible, but I assure you that it is the sober truth. A case came under my own observation a few days ago. It was the case of a minor who wanted 75 cents' worth of merchandise, and the merchant was willing to give it to him, or rather to let him have it, for the guardian thought he ought to have it. I don't know what the article was, but it was some trifling matter that perhaps he needed badly and had to have — the cost Avas only 75 cents. At any rate the minor got it, and he said to the merchant, " You see my guardian and get the money," and the merchant saw the guardian and told him about it, and the guardian said it was all right, but he said, " I will have to get an order of court to get the money." That is the procedure in such case, for the bond companies are on the bond and they require that they shall always get an order of court first. 312 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. Do the courts hold that for each individual item of expense of that kind and character the guardian must get an order of court ? — A. Yes, sir ; unless there is a general order made. Q. But the general order could be secured? — A. Yes, sir. In all the cases where -I have had anything to do with it, I have asked the court for a general order to allow the guardian to withdraw such money as he needed for the use of his ward, all such items of expense to be accounted for by proper vouchers in his annual settlement with the court. Q. Did the courts object to making that kind of an order 1— A. No, sir; I never had them object, but even then we have to have a report of a master on the matter that costs $2.50: That re- quires a fee of $2.50. I don't know of any case being handled by the master for less than $2.50. He examines the authority for every- thing or anything, and then he makes his report and it costs $2.50. Q. But these reports need not be made more than once a year? — A. If the guardian wishes to, or has to spend any large or extraordinary expense for his own protection or in the care of his ward, he has to have the master's report on it every time. Q. But the courts will make a general order on proper petition and showing? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On a proper petition and showing that the guardian should be allowed to make these expenditures from time to time,, and account in his report to the court therefor? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then would it not be quite proper for the guardian to estimate what the expenses would be for the minor during the year, and pass the whole thing through at once — get the master's report approving the settlement and the court to approve it at the same time, so it would only have to be made once? — A. Yes, sir; I think that is true, if you knew what it would be. The trouble with that is that the court will make you specify the purpose or purposes for which you want the money, or for which you withdraw the money, and you can't always state in advance what the purpose will be. If a person could look forward far enough to see just what each item of expense would be necessary he could do it that way, but it is impos- sible to do that. There is some things always coming up that you can't foresee. Q. Does the court require you to specify it in detail? — A. No, sir. To illustrate what I am driving at, I will state a case I know all about. A client of mine had a ward that had quite a sum of money in the possession of some bank, and deposited there by the Indian agent. As explained by Mr. Boudinot, he wanted to send this child to a school in Staunton, Va. He did not know how much it would cost to maintain his ward there, or what the tuition would be. We asked the court for permission to withdraw enough of the money to send him there, but the question of transportation, board, cloth- ing, tuition, etc., for one school term was something we could not. say. It was utterly impossible for the guardian to anticipate what this expense would be ; but if he wants to report to the master he could not do so, for he would not know what the amount would be that he would have to withdraw for this purpose. Now, that is what I mean. A person must have definite information as to these things, and it is not always possible. If he could say I want so much for FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 313 this and so much for that, and so much for that, and so much for that, it would be all right ; but, as I have explained, a person is not ahva_ys in a position where they can give that information lo the master or to the court, and they have to have it before they can withdraw the money. That is what I mean. Now, I don't see veiy well where there are valuable oil deposits on an allotment why there should not be a provision that a sufficient bond would be furnished for the han- dling of the money derived from these valuable properties, for an estate of that kind is valuable and yields large sums of money fre- quently as the proceeds of royalties accruing, and it is altogether different in the case of the ordinary allotment. In the case of the ordinary allotment it is of no earthly use except for agricultural purposes, and the amount of income derived from them is very small, and I don't see why, in the case of the handling of an allot- ment of that character, there should be a bond required for the handling of the few dollars that would come in from it. The courts require a trust company, and the trust company must be paid, and then when you pay the cost of the bond and the court fees very often there is very little left for the guardian or for anybody else. It is in such cases that I don't think any harm would arise if the estate was left to be handled by the parent without the necessity of going through the formality of being appointed a legal guardian. I trust the committee will see the distinction between such cases and the case I have cited, where the allotment is in the oil district and is productive of large royalties ; for in the latter case the amount of the money involved would dictate that ordinary prudence should be observed to the end that it would not be dissipated or lost. The cases are not parallel. There ought to be some flexibility about the rule, for in the other class of cases practically all of the income from an allotment is spent in costs of administration, and nothing is left for the minor. Now, on the question of whether or not this was ancestral estate, and what it is, we have made some effort to get up a case in shape so that we could discuss it with some court and get a final disposi- tion made of it, to the end that we might know what the position was. They point out that they paid their money to this country, and the children come in and are entitled to allotments by virtue of that fact, merely by reason of the fact that they are of the blood of the original purchasers of this country. That is true. This country here was purchased by the Indians from the Government of the United States either by the payment of money or by turning over other valuable possessions to the United States east of the Mississippi Eiver, which the Supreme Court said is a sacred trust, as sacred to the Indian as any white man's fee is to him. Now that is the way the Indians feel, that their title is a sacred trust and must be redeemed by the United States. Now, on the question of taxation, I have no doubt that you will find a great variety of opinion on that subject. If you want my opinion on that question I will give it to you. By Senator Long : Q. Yes, sir ; go ahead and favor us with it. — A. Well, I am of the opinion that all the property of the Indians, all their allotments excepting their homesteads, should be subject to taxation now. That S- Rep. 5013, .->!>-2, i)t 1 21 314 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. is the conclusion I have reached — I mean under the present condition of things. Q. Do you mean under the present legislation? — A. Yes, sir; I think under present legislation as it exists it is all, excepting the homestead subject of taxation — that is, extending for twenty-five years. Q. Yes, sir. — A. Yes, sir. Q. On what do you base that opinion? — A. Well, I think the Supreme Court has passed on the question of whether or not an Indian's allotment is taxable or not. It will be seen that the grounds on which the court holds it to be nontaxable heretofore was because the title to the land was all in the United States. That is not so— the complete, absolute title to the land. Q. What do you say as to that provision [handing same to Mr. Murchison] ? — A. Well, I haven't noticed that particular language Senator, but what I refer to is this section 19 of the act of April 26, 1906. The language to which I desire to call attention will be found at the end of the section on page 11, and reads as follows: "That all lands upon which restrictions are removed shall be subject to taxa- tion, and the other lands shall be exempt from taxation as long as the title remains in the original allottee." Now, that is the language of the act, but it occiirs to me that there may be some question as to the right of Congress to deprive by legislative enactment, some sovereign State of the right of levying taxes, but that would not apply where the estate or agreement with the Indians accrued in this way; the essential point being that as to the homestead, that is where the treaty provided it should be exempt; that in an agreement with the In- dians the homestead could not be taxed, but the rest could be taxed. Q. By agreement, you mean the Cherokee agreement of 1902?— A. Yes, sir. Q. "\¥liat is the exact provision in that agreement that you refer to? — A. Well, it is section 13, I believe. I think I can find it here. This is the second edition of Indian laws and treaties by Kappler, and it seems that I can't find 'it here (examining book). Yes, it seems that I can't find it here. Q. You know the section? — A. Yes, sir; it is section 13, on page YSS. I see the provision is for the homestead. That is what I thought. Q. For the homestead ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Only?— A. Yes, sir. Q. It is silent as to the others? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It just mentions the homestead as being exempt ?^-A. Yes, sir. Q. Please read the provisions. — A. I will do so. I will read sec- tion 13. (Eeading sections 13, 14, and 15). Now, section 14 aliena- tion (reading same) — which takes place on the 2d of August, is a prohibition against alienation. Then there is a negative form of restriction here ; it is doubtful if it ever will have any effect or not (reading section 15). That declares a fact which would have existed but for sections 13 and 14 immediately, and it is questionable whether or not it had any effect on the question of alienation, the other two sections being positive in their form and this section being negative in its form. Now, you understand, of course, that I don't propose to discuss here the constitutionality of an act of Congress. I really FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 315 don't know whether I ever read this act right through, never having had any occasion to consider it. Q. It is necessary to read it a good many times before you will understand just what is in it? — A. I expect that is so, but I must con- fess that I have not done so. Now, I have been opposed to full bloods selling their inherited lands through the Secretary of the Interior — that is, through application to the Secretary — I have been opposed to that; but aside from that question — the question of the constitution- ality of that law — I think, if the Senators will examine the Supreme Court decision, and the grounds upon which the decision is based, declaring the allotment of Indians to be nontaxable so long as the title was in the United States. Senator Teller. That was where the title was in the tribe? — A. That was where the title was the individual fee simple. By the Chaieman : Q. As a practical proposition, what would you say as to the ques- tions of restrictions being removed — that is, as applied to the full bloods and mixed bloods; and if there is any distinction as to the application of it, state what, in your opinion, that distinction is. — A. Well, sir, I am somewhat like Mr. Boudinot on that question. Q. I am speaking from the standpoint of benefit to the Indian full blood or the Indian of mixed blood without reference to the question of law. — A. Whether it would be a benefit or injury? Q. Yes, sir. — A. I think it would be an advantage to the mixed bloods. That is, generally speaking, I think it would be. Now, that is as a general thing, but there are exceptions to that rule, you under- stand. It would not be a blessing or advantage to all of them, for there are some mixed bloods that live in the hills that really are more ignorant and incompetent than a great many of the full bloods ; but 1 believe firmly that on the whole, if the restrictions were removed so that they could go out freely into the market and offer their lands to the best buyer and get the best price for it that the market affords would be a decided advantage to them. Now, while I feel that this is true, I don't know absolutely that it is true. I know that in many cases it would be a curse to them, but I feel that, on the whole, it would be a blessing. A great many of these people, where their re- strictions have been removed, have already made a contract or a sort of tentative agreement for the sale of their land. I don't know that it is true, but I believe it is true. I know that once their restrictions are removed they sell very quickly; and I know that up until re-, cently that the people who would buy the lands of such people knew a long time in advance of the Indian that his restrictions had been removed. Speaking of George Gritts, I represented him in his appli- cation for the removal of his restrictions, and I was in the Depart- ment at Washington and the matter was taken up there by me, and his restrictions were removed on the afternoon of January 6, 1906, and I sent a telegram out here that same afternoon announcing that his restrictions had been removed, and it was known here that they had been removed before I sent my telegram. Q. How long was it before he sold his land? — A. I don't know just how long it was, but it was very shortly. Q. Then, I understand that your vieW is that the general removal 316 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. of restrictions by act of Congress is iDreferable to the present plan?— A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the full bloods? — A. Well, I think that as to tk full bloods that the inspector's idea — that Mr. Wright's idea — is the best thing. Q. Expressed in some report? — A. I think not; well, I don't knoiv whether it is in a report or not. Q. Well, what is his idea? — A. His ideas regarding the removal of restrictions is that there should be removal of the restrictions on the surplus land of the full blood, with the condition or restriction on the sale of it, if he desires to sell it, until such time as the contract for the sale of his surplus land is approved by some one who is capa- ble of determining whether or not he has made a good contract and is getting a reasonable value of the land, and his idea was that it should be the Secretary of the Interior or some man out here on the ground who would or should determine that question. He told me about his plan, and I told him that I agreed with him, and that if I appeared before this committee that I would agree with him in so far as the matter in which the land should be sold ; but that if it was left to the Secretary to determine that question, I could not agree with him, for I said I felt that we ought to do something to get rid of these heart-breaking delays that occur because of the fact that we have to send all these things to Washington to get these con- tracts approved. The delay in securing these approvals is discouraging, and I might say heartbreaking, because the Indian Office in Washington is generally full of matters of this kind, and it takes time for every- thing to reach the Secretary, and that takes time. Last winter when I was in Washington I had some six cases that I was very anxious to have attended to, and they had been there some time and should have been decided before that, but when I got there and looked them up I found that they were just about six months from consideration. Now, that is the great obstacle we butt up against here at every turn. We can't get away from it, and never will as long as every little trivial thing is referred to Washington for decision. In the Indian office they try to give it a very thorough examination, and when they are through with it it goes over to the Secretary of the Interior for him to pass on it, and that takes more time. There is a limit on what a man can do, and I am satisfied that the office is overcrowded with work, and that is another reason why there should be some speedier way devised to get through with these things. Now, I am satisfied that the people in the Indian office don't know the condition that exists down here. They don't know the condition of the Indian ; they don't know that, perhaps, he has not anything to eat — is in a condi- tion of beggary and semistarVation ; if they did they might work out a plan by which greater activity would be shown. They don't know that he has to go three or four months without any means of get- ting anybody to relieve his necessities, and that is the condition we are in. Anyhow it is several months after the application is sent in, even under the most advantageous circumstances, before we can get the action of the Secretary of the Interior, and then it is frequently refused or dismissed through lack of knowledge of the situation. It is all right enough to wateh the welfare of the Indians, but they should not be allowed to starve and at the same time have more land FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 317 than they know what to do with. Frequently, if they could get rid of bome of it, they could get money enough to make a start in their home- stead, and the remedy for this is, in my opinion, the appointment by the President of some man, with the approval of Congress — the appointment of some man here in the Territory with authority and power to decide these questions, so that when the Indian makes his trade it can go at once before this man and he can make his investigations and examination, and if it is such a trade as any reasonable discreet man would make, let it be approved on the spot and the trade closed there and then, instead of having to send the thing to Washington to the Secretary, and then sit down and wait several months to know whether it is going through or not or having several attorneys going to Washington to see whether it is done or not. Xow, that is one great drawback to this country here and the ability to transact business. I would also let them apply for infants thi'ough their guardians. Frequently a child, if permitted to sell a part of its surplus or the whole of its surplus, could realize enough money to give it a reasonably good education, and at the same time its homestead could be improved so it would yield a nice revenue, and when he would become of age he would have a farm and a home to go to ; but restrictions should be thrown around all these transac- tions so that these people should not be able to dispose of their holdings and squander the proceeds in riotous living, but at the same time they should not be limited to $10 a month or to any specific sum. The money should be applied to improvement of the homestead as far as possible with the view of giving them a fairly comfortable home to live in, and also for the support of the family, if needed for that purpose. If a man is employed to build a house on the home- stead, the work must be supervised, and when the house is done the contractor must get his money, and when the infant, if the work is being done for an infant, comes of age his homestead should be turned over to him free of debt. It would not do to let these people in every instance have the handling of this money, for they would dissipate and squander it. Many of them would not, but 1 believe ■ that more of them would do so. Q. Would you have a probate court to do this work, or would you have the courts here assume jurisdiction over these matters? — A. It is immaterial to me who does it or how it is done, so long as it is in competent hands. I have no preference as to who does it, only the man who does it should be absolutely independent of the people in Wash- ington. I have never had any opinion other than I have expresed about these matters. Long-distance government has always proved absolutely disastrous to the people who are governed, and this coun- try has not been any exception to the rule. Senator Long. You do not believe in this long-distance govern- ment ? — A. Indeed I don't, nor would anyone if they lived down here and had practical experience with it. I don't think that there could be anything -devised that would operate to the disadvantage of a sec- tion to the extent that it does. I believe that more of our troubles are attributable to that factor than all others combined. Senator Teller. The business is done by the Commissioners. The Secretary rarely pays any attention to it. There is not one case in a hundred where the Secretary knows personally anything about it when he signs his name to the papers. He does not know, and under the 318 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. conditions, with the volume of work there is to do, he could not know. All he can do is to refer it to some clerk or assistant in his Department to look it up, for he can not do it himself, and so as far as he is con- cerned it is pro forma. — A. Yes, sir ; I understand that. If they would put some theory into practice and keep it going so we would not have to wait for months for the Secretary to get things done, it would be a great advantage to the Indian and other citizenship here. Now, Mr. Gritts is also secretary of the Keetoowah Society, and he is here and would like to say something. The Chairman. Let him come forward, for we would like to hear what he has to say. STATEMENT OP MR. LEVI V. GRITTS. By the Chairman : Q. Where do you reside ? — A. Tahlequah, Ind. T. Q. And your nationality ? — A. Cherokee. Q. What are you, a full blood or mixed blood ? — A. I am classed as one of the full bloods — that is, I am classed by the Dawes Commission as a full-blood Cherokee Indian, but I am not a full blood, for my mother's father was a white man. Before I go any further I want to mention a newspaper that we used to run at the expense of the Cherokee government, and when the Cherokee tribal government was abolished this newspaper was also abolished, and I have been in- formed that this last Congress instructed the Secretary of the Interior to continue the publication of this newspaper. Q. What newspaper was that ? — A. That was the Cherokee Advo- cate, and it was published in Cherokee and also in English. Now, we have among us the people who spoke here awhile ago and who are representative of the full-blood element in the Cherokee Nation, and while they can't read English all of these people can read Chero- kee, and it is or was through the medium of this paper, published partly in Cherokee, that they got any information as to the Govern- ment and what was being done ; but since this paper was stopped they have no way of enlightening themselves in regard to the country and , what is being done. I thought I would mention this now, with a view of enlightening you as to the situation. At the present time we have no way of enlightening them as to the situation. We have a good many of these full bloods in our nation, and they don't know the situation of the country for these reasons. It is true that they are ignorant and backward, but they mean well and they are honest and truthful, and would do better if they had anything that would enlighten them, but that has been stopped, as I have told you. If they had any way of informing themselves about what was going on in the United States, I believe they would do better. Q. What complaint have you to make, if any? — A. Well, we complain — I appear here in behalf of the Cherokee Nation — particu- larly the full blood element in it, and we complain because the Sec- retary of the Interior has not carried out the instructions given him by Congress. Q. You refer to the fact that he has not caused the resumption of the publication of your Cherokee paper? — A. Yes, sir; he was in- structed to do so by Congress, and he has not done so. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 319 Q. Why has he not clone so ? — A. We don't know. There has been no one appointed as editor of the newspaper. Q. Do you want the Secretary of the Interior to run the news- paper? — A. We want him to appoint some one as editor and let the editor run it. I wish also to spealc and say something about the tallts that have been made here this afternoon about the ignorance of the full-blood Cheroltee. Now I want to say as one of them that we are a proud people. We are no suppliants, but we have pride, and we feel that we are law- abiding people, and that we go by the laws of the country, and if any one commits a crime, we believe that he should be punished for it, and we don't uphold any criminal acts at all committed by anybody. We believe that this should be a law-abiding country and that the laws — every one of them — should be upheld. That is what we full- blood Clierokees believe. Q. Then you do not indorse the night hawks or their actions or policy ? — A. Well, no ; we don't indorse them when they go to violat- ing the law. If they violate the law we believe that they should be punished like any other people who violate the law. Q. Then you condemn their action? — A. As a member of the Ketoowah Society, and speaking for the members of that society, we say that we don't indorse any lawless acts committed by some unfor- tunate and ignorant full-blooded Cherokee. We want that distinctly understood — that we stand for law and order and the enforcement of the law. Q. Where were you educated? — A. At Tahlequah, and also at the Indian University. Q. Where is that universitj' ? — A. About 3 miles from here. Q. What do you say about the removal of restrictions on the full bloods? — A. Well, I am somewhat situated as to that like the balance of them. It is a question that has two sides to it, and which- ever side you take you might wish that you had taken the other. I will say that I am acquainted with the Indians. I don't think that there is anyone in the Territory better acquainted with them than I am. I have lived with them all my life and don't know anything much else. I am over there at Tahlequah, and I am in the real-estate business; and I know the way of the Indians and the way that they have of trading, and I will say that taking the question all together and weighing the advantages against the disadvantages, I must say that I don't think it would be a good idea to have their restrictions removed. Q. I mean from the full bloods alone ? — A. I understand. Q. That is what you mean ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So, you say that you think it would not be a good plan to remove the restrictions from the full bloods? — A. No, sir'; I don't think it would. Q. You are a citizen of the Cherokee Nation ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. And have lived here all your life?— A. Yes, sir; was born, raised, and educated right here among them. Now, of course there are some full bloods that have been away from home and have been educated, and they are capable of managing their business, but on the other hand there are some that would never learn to attend to business the way a white man does; and, again, there are sonie old people who are very old and helpless and haven't any means of living. 320 3?IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. and for these that are capable of managing things and the ones that are old, it might do to remove their restrictions, for the old people could sell some of their surplus land or all of it, or even their homesteads to get enough to supply them in their old age; but on the majority of the full bloods, the great majority of them, I don't think it would be wise to remove their restrictions, for the reason that they don't knoAv the value of their property and would squander it. Now, that is the way 1 see it. As far as the old people are con- cerned, they are old and they haven't much of life before them, and it might be beneficial to remove their restrictions to sell it, for they can't use it anyway; but as for the majority of the full bloods, I think that it woulcl be a detriment to them to take off their restric- tions. Q. Do I understand you to say that in cases of the sort you have described that it woulcl be well to provide some way for the removal of their restrictions, in individual cases? — A. Yes, sir; I do. We have some full-blood Cherokees that are blind and others are feeble. I know of several cases of that kind, and I believe that thejr should have their restrictions removed, for they need the money that they would get for their support ; but still at the same time I don't believe that they should be removed from all the full bloods, for the reasons I stated. Q. Then I understand that there is a limited class or number of the full bloods whose restrictions should be removed ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the mixed bloods? — A. Well, a good many of the mixed bloods are capable of transacting their own business. Q. And you think their restrictions should be removed? — A. Yes, sir; I think they ought to be removed. A great many of them are more capable of transacting business than the full bloods, but some of them are not capable, just as it is with the whites ; there are lots of white men who can't transact business, you know. Q. Yes ; that is true of any race. — A. Yes, sir. Q. With reference to the mixed bloods, do you think that as a class they want their restrictions removed? — A. No, sir; I don't. I think the majority of them want them to remain. Q. They do not want to pay taxes? — A. No, sir; I have heard a great many of them say they did not want them removed, for if they were taken off they would have to pay taxes, and that they don't want to do. Q. That is all ? — A. Now, the most important thing that I wanted to speak about was this newspaper business. Since Congress passed an act that the paper should be published and that the Secretary was to give us an editor down there, I think that it ought to be done. I think he should obey Congress and do as he was ordered. All we want him to do is to obey the law. We obey the law and he is very strict with us in seeing that we do, in all the dealings we have with him, obey it; and we think he should set us the example of obeying it himself. Senator Teller. I think you are right about that. The Chairman. Was that the only newspaper published in Cherokee ? — A. Yes, sir ; it was the only one lately. You notice that we had an election a little while ago to elect delegates to the consti- tutional convention at Guthrie, and there was a lot of Cherokees who did not know anything about that election or what it was for. They FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 321 can't speak or read or write English, and so they were in igno- rance, but if we had had that paper we could have told them all about it, and they would have understood it, but as it was they didn't knoAv anything about it. All they knew about it was what they learned in verbal conversation. They are not able to read English, and there is no newspaper in this country that has Cherokee type, and so the news of what that was did not reach the full-blood people at all. By Senator Beandegee : Q. That paper was published in Cherokee? — A. Yes, sir. Q. AVhere was that paper published ? — A. At Tahlequah. Q. Wlien was its publication suspended? — A. Last March. Q. Do you know the reason why the Secretary has not appointed an editor?— A. No, sir; I do not. I have understood, or, rather, I have been informed, that two partie.s sent in their application for the editorship, but there has never been any appointment. Q. Is the office there yet ? — A. Yes, sir; there is the building there. Q. And material for printing it? — A. Yes, .sir; I suppose so. Q. When the pajDer was published, how was it supported — from what fund? — A. From the Cherokee funds. Q. From the Cherokee national or tribal funds? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is all. The Chairman. If there are others here v,dio wish to be heard on this question we are ready to hear them ; but we would like them to be as brief as possible, for time is slipping by and our session of neces- sity must be brief. I noticed a lady here a while ago who informed me that she would like to be heard — a Mrs. Wood. (Mrs. Wood arose.) Mrs. Wood, you spoke to me this afternoon and evinced a desire to say something to the committee or make some presentation of matters. We would be glad to hear from you now. STATEMENT OF MKS. J. A. WOOD. By the Chairman: Q. Give your full name to the reporter. — A. Mrs. J. A. Wood. Q. Where is your residence, Mrs. Wood? — A. Fort Gibson, Ind. T. Q. What is your nationality? — A. I am a Cherokee Indian. Is there any particular point you desire ? Q. Oh, no, madam. You may proceed and state anything that you may desire to the committee. — A. Well, in the first place, I think we have got to get a title to our land, for until we get that all these restrictions, particular and otherwise, won't benefit us much. It won't benefit any of us, because we are all tied up in contests and things of that kind, and if we did get our restrictions removed we could not handle anything until the contests and lawsuits are settled. So what good would it do to remove the restrictions ? Q. Are these contests between the original holders of the allot- ments? — A. Yes, sir; the people who improved them and occupied them as a home for themselves and where their children were born, people who have held them and occupied them as homes and improved them for twenty-five or thirty or forty years in many instances, and who have inherited them. Other people have come in and claimed to have them allotted to them. That has been done in many cases. 322 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Many of the people on them have improved' them, and others have lived there and made their improvements on another tract of land. Many times several members of the same family will make improve- ments and a home on tracts of land adjacent to each other. They will marry and settle down on it and raise their families on it. And in other cases all the family will be on the same place and they will make the improvements in common ; and we have been in the habit under the old tribal government of going and having our improve- ments on record in the book kept publicly for the recording of improvements. That book is kept in the executive office of the Chero- kee nation at the capital of the Cherokee Nation, Tahlequah. That is the book in which we kept the record of our expenditures, and it was kept there at the capital. That book was kept there until the United States came in and took charge of all our property, and I suppose it can still be found. Now, I speak of that because that book and the records in it is supposed to protect us against all intruders and trespassers over that boundary line that is described in there, and it is therefore segreT gated for us from the rest of the land. It is ours as long as we want to use it, under the old rule, and when we are done with it it goes to our children, and so on, on down the line. As the Constitution states, when a Cherokee Indian selects a piece of land — when he selects a piece of the public domain — he could declare that to be his homestead if he desired to do so, and it was his own property just as long as he wished to stay there, and the Cherokee laws and the Cherokee courts protected him in the enjoyment of the possession of that tract of land; but he had to give it boundaries, so that no one else could legally trespass on it. It would be recorded in his own individual name, and he could put his improvements on it ; but under the laws of those days he had to improve it, and if he did tUat there was no per- son or lawyer or judge who could ever take it away from him or his people. The land was the public domain — all of it that was unoccu- pied — and, as I say, any Cherokee Indian could go on any part of it where no one was before him, and he could locate there, and set up his home, and it was his always thereafter, and the law and the courts protected him in the possession and enjoyment of it without our having anything else, specially, but simply the being in possession of it; and in cases where the chief has been spoken to about it — where some one came in and tried to take our land — and it was all on record, as it should be, the chief has said : " It is yours, and you can keep it ; " and he said : " You will have to be defended in the pos- session, even if the nation has to do it." When we go and record it in our executive department it is ours, and no man or woman or any other kind of a trespasser can come in and steal it away from us. Now, that was the way it was in the old days, and I wish I could say as much for these days, for it appears now as if any low-down kind of a thief can come in and set up a claim that the present Govern- ment and courts will uphold. Now this may sound strange to you, and probably no one has come before you who has talked as plainly to you ; but I am here to tell you facts. I have just begun, and I am going to keep at it until I finish. The white people may deride our old Indian government, but I tell you that we had worked out a plan of government that suited us mighty well. We ■\vere satisfied with it — all of us — and now that the whites have come in here and PIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 323 are imposing on us their laws, and making new ones for us, we are in a bad shape. We have fallen upon evil days — or evil days have fallen on us — and I can tell you, and do tell you, that your laws will never suit us as our old ones did. So it was that when a title was properly recorded in those days, instead of a person having to go out and spend their money to defend a title the nation had given them, the nation defended it for them. It is your custom, if you sell a piece of land, to give what is called a " warranty deed." Now, if that title fails, you have to defend it. The Government proposes to give me a warranty deed, and if the title is not all right I have to defend it. I leave it to you which was the best and most hon- orable plan — the old Indian plan or the white man's plan. Now, then, in a case where parents would drop out — die — and leave children unprotected, our nation steps in again for their protection, and no one can attempt to molest or intrude on them. There is no limit as to time. The nation is absolutely the protector of the weak and helpless, as it is of the strong and rich. There is no distinction, or favor of class, or anything else. If you had the boundary lines of the land you had selected for yours on record, it was better far than any conveyance, or lease, or anything else, and there was no limit as to area Q. How is that? Did you say there was no limit to the area claimed? — A. No, sir; no limit — if the recorded lines were there plainly shown. Q. Do you mean that there was no limit to the number of acres that could be there recorded ? — A. No, sir ; the Indians were not greedy — they did not take more than was necessary. If they had attempted to take more than was necessary to the disadvantage of the rest of the nation, I think we would have made a rule to meet the occasion ; but the people were modest in those days. There was no land hunger like there is now. The rule that we followed was that each member of the family should claim 160 acres, and no more — that was a sort of custom or unwritten law — or 640 acres for the family. We were not excessive landholders, and we did not want to be. It was a common thing where a family held a good deal of land in a favorable location, if somebody else came along who wanted to locate there, for the In- dian to relinquish his claim to a particular tract of land and let the other person file on it or record it. We were living a very simple life then, and there was none of this turmoil and strife ovei land, and this eagerness to get it in any way and at any cost of principle or honor. Q. And how much did you say it was the custom to claim or file on them for an individual or a family ? — ^A. 160 acres each, or 640 acres for a family. Q. Is not the practical effect of the present allotment plan the same? Is it not an impartial and equal division of the land? — -A. And equal conditions ? Q. Is it not the theory of the present allotment law that there should be an equal division of the land ? — A. Well, yes ; that is what it is supposed to be. Q. In fact, is that not what it is? — A. Yes, sir; I suppose so. In the old days any time we saw fit to call on the Government for a survey of our land they would send men out to do it ; but we had to call on the Government through our counselor to do that. The pres- ent plan is all right, if it had to be done, and I suppose the time had 324 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. come when it could not be delayed any longer. Right here in this connection I would like to know why the Congress of the United States has by law made us citizens, yet in its connection with us it treats us as not being citizens? If we are citizens, why restrain us from acting in any capacity as citizens? That is what I would like to have explained to me. I can't understand it, I admit — we are either citizens, or we ain't ; but the law says we are, and I believe it is that Secretary that you have up there that meddles in our affairs so much says we ain't citizens. Q. That is what is sought to be done under the present laws. — A. "What is it that is sought to be done ? Q. Make you citizens? — A. But the law says right now that we are citizens. That is what was supposed to be done through a treaty which we all finally agreed to. The Cherokees are all willing to take their land, but they want it so that it will be their own land and they will know that it is their land ; but like other people we don't propose to let other peojole, interlopers, come in and take the land we have held for years. We know what is ours and we want it, and all of it and no more. We only ask for our own, and it seems a shame that we should have to ask and beg for our own. There is nothing unforeseen, however, in all this situation. Many of as knew what was coming. jVs for myself I saw it coming for years. Many of us made preparations for it, for we knew it was coming. Myself, I bought two plots and paid $2,000 for one. It is right over there near Tahlequah. I never was very robust and I have four children grown practically now, or partly grown, so I bought this tract of land with the improvements on it, and I never thought that I would have any trouble about it. I had it recorded in the name of my two little girls ; but when this allotment law went into force and we all had to file, I went up to file on this land that I had bought and paid my money out for, and I found that about fifteen minutes before I appeared to file that there was a man who had a ticket before him with a description of the land, had filed on it. He had never made any effort before that time to get this land, but he filed on my land because he said I had no right to it, and that I was an excessive property holder, and so he filed on my land that I had paid $2,000 for and had spent a great deal more on it in the way of improvements. Well, I went and notified the Dawes Commission, and I had it stamped with the valuation so as to show whether I had more land than I was entitled to f or_ myself and family, and it appeared that we did not have near as much as we could hold. I bought that land in the first place because it was a nice place and I wanted to be near town, for I haven't very robust health, and I had it recorded so these little girls could hold it. I thought I was mak- ing a wise provision for them, for the time might come when they would need it, and that was the reason I did it. Q. And some one else had filed on it before you did ? — A. Yes, sir. When I went in to file he was ahead of me by one number. One of the clerks said when I explained the situation to him — what he said was, " Here is a case that you will have to contest for perjury, for if the facts are as you have stated that man has committed perjury, for we all know that it is your place;" and that is the fact, for every- body knows that it is my farm, and they have known it ever since FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 325 1895, for I bought it and put it on record, and I bought it for the purpose of keeping it. Q. "What family did you have? — A. I had four girls at that time to educate and bring up, and I thought it would be a nice home- stead to keep these girls on until they were grown, for they could go to school in the town and live at home, and it was very convenient in that way, and I gave each of them a lot. Q. And when you went to make your allotment or file for it, you found that this man was ahead of you and had filed on it? — A. Yes, sir; he had filed against an 80 of it, and had sworn that it was public domain, although the clerks in the office knew that it was not public domain, but they couldn't help themselves. They had to record it when it was accompanied by the affidavit that it was public domain. There was nothing that they could do, so I am not blaming them. Now, that case was called for trial, and I had the clerk bring in this book of public records, and it was all he could carry, and he gave in his evidence that my claim was filed on it and that it was not public domain; and some of the attorneys on the other side objected to this being introduced, and the clerk said, " This book was put in our possession long years ago to protect our citizens in just such a case as this. Now, it is in this record that this property is indisputably and unmistakably Mrs. Wood's property, and any man that has filed on it has indisputably filed on her property, and it was her property long before the filing was done." Now, that was what the clerk would have testified to if they had let him ; but they would not let these facts come out in evidence, and the case was tried, and when it was decided they gave Mr. Will 70 acres out of the 80 to Mr. Will. Q. How much did he file on ? — A. He filed on that 80 and another 80. In fact, he filed on 100 acres across the front end of my prop- erty. That was 20 there and 80 of my daughter's land that he filed on, and that was the way it was decided at the trial — that he should get 70 acres of that 80. Q. What was the ground of that decision ? — A. Well, they claimed, or said that I never had it improved and I had no right to it. If you knew the situation there, you would understand it. The female seminary there had 160 acres of land there bought and paid for, and it was devoted to that institution years before, but this treaty we had with the United States cut it down to 40 acres, and that left that small tract of about 10 acres that I did not have anything on, for it was inside the female seminary fence. The agreement about that said that whoever took that property must pay the seminary for a wire fence that was put up, and if it was filed on it would have to be paid for before the patent would l^e issued or the parties using it would pay for it, and so on, and as it was right there beside my place I wanted it, and so to avoid any trouble I went to the superintendent of the female seminary and made a deal with him to pay for the wires that they had put up and the posts that he had put up and hadn't received any pay for it from the nation. I went to him at a time when they were suffering from the cold, and I said to him " if you will agree to sell me that wire I will pay for it and I will have some wood delivered here to you that is cut oii my farm," and he agreed to it, and I de- livered the wood. Now, that was the arrangement I made with 326 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the superintendent, but afterwards, after I had delivered the wood, I went to the seminary board of education — the managing board — and told them about it and tried to get their approval, and they said they had no right to accept payment for it, and I went to the agent and he said the same thing; he said that we could not do a thing about it until it was appraised. I did everything I possibly could to get it settled, but there seemed to be no one who had authority to accept the payment. I bought the entire property, some 350 acres in all, and all in one body and every foot around it belonged to the neighbors. Mr. Pratt said there was no public domain there at all; it was all taken up, and every foot of land around there belonged to somebody else and everybody laiew it, so there was not a foot of public domain there at all. By Senator Long: Q. As to this property that you have the trouble or the contest over, who is in possession of it ? — A. I am in possession of it. Q. Who was it allotted to — what was his name ? — A. A Mr. French. Q. What has become of Mr. French? Has he ever taken jDosses- sion of it? — A. Well, they have given him the certificates for it. Q. Has he ever attempted to take possession of it? — A. No, sir. His father was very near death at the time he filed and he gave him a power of attorney to file on it; and now that he is dead this land belongs not only to an older son by a prior marriage, but to the present children, and of course one has as much interest in it as the other. Q. Has he tried to occupy it? — A. No, sir. Q. Or to take possession of it? — A. No, sir. Q. So yoa are now occupying it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then he has not disturbed you in any way? — A. No, sir; not yet. Q. But he has the certificates of allotment and you have not? — A. Yes, sir. They gave him 10 acres out of what was my daughter's, and I haven't anything. Q. Is the land improved now ? — A. A half wire fence runs through my field and the rest of it is in my field — well, the rest of it is inside the seminary fence. Q. Is there any income from it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you collect the rents from it ? — A. Yes, sir ; and 500 barrels of apples. I have only 5 acres-^inside the fence — but it is all cleared. Q. Mr. French died since the time he filed on it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you are in possession of the property, but the French estate has the certificate? — A. Yes, sir. Now there is another thing I want to say. He filed on that land of mine, when Mr. French and his family have plenty of land. I laiow the reason he did that; that is right there adjacent to the city of Tahlequah, and he imagined that they might turn out to be valuable for town lots some day. He thought that Tahlequah would grow, and he could cut it up into town lots and sell them at a good price some day, and everybody there was segregating his father's allotment, taking the land that their fathers had located on and improved years ago, and I suppose he saw that this was a good chance to get in on something that was good, and so he •filed on my land, when there was plenty of land a little farther out that he could have got. I don't believe he ever wanted it for a home- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ■ 32? stead; in fact, he has tried to sell it recently, but I understand his stepmother has served a_ notice preventing him from selling it. Q. What do you think this committee can do. You are here making a complaint about a personal matter, and we would like to know what you think this committee can do about it? — A. Well, I don't know that you can do anything. I didn't come here expecting that you could or would do anything. That is not my object. I understood that you were down here for the purpose of finding out conditions down here, and I just thought that I would come before you and give you one example of the way things are done. There are many things to complain about down here. There is the question of people who are citizens and can't do the things that citizens are au- thorized to do by custom and law. Then, there is the question of these restrictions — you give us our land — or the United States gives us what is our own^ — and you tie all kinds of strings to it, so we can't do anything with it unless we go to the trouble and expense of un- winding several miles of red tape, and I don't think that is right. You gentlemen can recommend that Congress pass a law, and they will do it. Senator Teller. Do not be too sure about that. Sometimes we recommend a thing, and they turn it down. There is no telling what Congress will do with any proposition. A. Well, I am not afraid, if you will ask them to do a thing after you have been down here and see just the condition we are in, but that they will do it. Q. Do not be too sure of it. — A. Well, gentlemen, we are in bad shape down here. We have grafters and every kind of bad men down here who are laying for the Indians all the time. I am not afraid of them. I think I can look out for myself. I am able to match them, I believe; but they will put up a job on a person like I have told you about, and they will get it through, and there don't seem to be any redress. That is where they can get the better of me — • when they get me in court. Frequently the Indian don't have any chance there. By Senator Long : Q. Well, this contest with Mr. French was between two Indians ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You can not have any cause to complain about that ? — A. Well, I don't know about that. There was, perhaps, some one back of him who was not an Indian. I incline to the opinion there was. Anyway, I hadn't any chance in that court. Q. Do you think the court did not give you a fair deal? — A. I might think a good deal that I am not going to express. Q. What do you think about restrictions ? That seems to be a troublesome question down here, and we would like to. have your opinion? — ^A. I think that there are Indians just as competent as any white man to transact business. Q. In your opinion, then, should the restrictions be removed? — A. Not by the Secretary. I think there ought to be some one here that^ould do that. Q. Remove restrictions? — ^A. Yes, sir ; if they are removed. Q. I understand you to say that in some cases they should be re- moved and that in such cases it should be done by a competent per- 328 I'lVB CIVILIZED TEIBES. son or tribunal established for that purpose here in the Territory.— A. Yes, sir ; but I think that restriction business is simply an illegal transaction all the way around. You say we are citizens, and the Sec- retary says we are not, and we either are or are not, and I think that is a question you should decide and fix it so we will know just what we are. Q. Do you think that restrictions should be removed from every- body? — A. I think that this whole restriction business is illegal and that something ought to be done about it, for that restriction business, I tell you, gentlemen, is simply working a hardship on everybody. By imposing them you have put us all in the hands of the grafter and he works us — well, not me, thank God — I flatter myself he can't work me — ^but there are thousands of people he can work, and his vile work is done frequently through some Indian that he has seduced from his own people, and lends himself to the work. All the bad men are not found among the whites — some of the Indians are as bad as the whites ; but, gentlemen, they did not know how to be bad until the white man showed them how. That is the fact; the white man is just as bad as the Indian and the Indian just as bad as the white man. Now, that brings me down to the question of restric- tions. I will tell you, gentlemen, that my restrictions are removed. I had mine removed without any trouble. Q. I would like you to go into details a little as to the way these restrictions work, for I understood you to say that they only work to the detriment or disadvantage of the honest man whether he is white or Indian? — A. Yes, sir; it works to the disadvantage of every white man whether he is an honest man or a grafter, and right here I will say that nearly every white man engaged in the real estate business is a grafter and the same is true of the Indians in the same business; so I say it works to the disadvantage of the white 2nan for the reason that he can't legally buy a foot of land unless the restrictions are I'emoved, and men are not going to the trouble of fixing up a scheme to get the restrictions removoxi from a man that they know in their hearts is not fit to manage his busi- ness, and take advantage of his incompetency. I gave my daugh- ters, minor daughters, every foot of improved property I had out there and I took raw land myself. Now, that is what I did, and I mention this to show if I was helpless and had no business sense, that I could not rent that land or lease it, for the country is full of that kind of property, unimproved, and I did that because at my place I have several young ladies, daughters, who couldn't go out on that land and clear it and improve it. Now, pay attention to this, for all over the Territory you will find the same condition, young women and old women and children who have been allotted land, homestead and surplus, and under this inflexible rule they can't sell an inch of their land, and they can't improve it them- selves, and the result is that they pan do nothing. They can't, per- haps, show that they are competent to manage their affairs, and there- fore can't get the restrictions removed, unless they employ some one who will manufacture evidence for them, and by perjury get it, and in any case getting the restrictions removed is a very long anflt tire- some and at the same time expensive process. Now, if they could sell some of their land, their surplus land or part of it, they could get the FIVE CIVILII^ED TRIBES. 329 means to improve their homesteads and put it in condition so they could rent it and get something out of it; so all over this land you will find people who are just in that condition. They are rich in land and still objects of charity. Now, that is the way with my family ; they can't do a thing with their land until they are grown, and all the time I have to support tl\em at my expense. Now, this applies to the women, but I believe in our boys having all the re- strictions that we can have on them. I don't believe you can have too many restrictions on them. They are not like girls. They are wild, as a rule, and like to have a good time. I don't want my boy's restrictions removed at all, for I Imow pretty near what he would do with it. Now, I will state my position, I am in favor of removing the restrictions from all the land that people can't use, or improve, or cultivate, remove the restrictions from every acre of it, and also from the land of ladies, whether old or young ; and I don't know but what it would be a good plan to remove it from all of them, for that plan would shut the grafter out, and he is the curse of this unfortunate country. It is a hard problem, and I don't like to say what should be done, but I have given you my idea. Q. How would that operate to shut the grafter out? — A. Well, the honest men would come into the country and they could buy a farm at first hand for a fair price and the Indian would get the value of his land or something close to it, for these men that would come in to buy farms would go up to the Indian and say, " Do you want to sell this land ? If you do I will give you so much for a little piece of it," and they would make the bargain and it would be to the advantage of both of them ; but as it is now the grafter comes in and he says, " You have more land than you want or know what to do with, and you would like to have some money to buy things you want." " Now," he says — the grafter does — " if you will let.me have this land, I will get your restrictions removed and pay you so much for it, and if you will make that agreement with me I will let you have some money now;" and the Indian is an improvident fellow, the kind that the grafters deal with are, and the Indian -thinks that it is a big job to get the restrictions removed, and he knows that he can't get a cent for his land any other way, so he makes the contract and the grafter gets the restrictions removed, and then the Indian sells him the land. Kemember, that nine out of ten Indians are as honorable as any peo- ple on earth ; when they give their word that they will do a thing it is a matter of honor with them, and they will do it at any cost, and so the grafter gets the Htnd at small cost, nothing like what it is worth. Now, if the restrictions were all off, the Indian would sell his land to an honest man nine times out of ten, and he would get what it was worth. Remember that an Indian is a very honorable fellow and he will never go back on it ; in fact an Indian's word is as good as a white man's bond, and the grafters know this to be true and rely on it. They know that they haven't any contract that they could enforce in court, but they know that they have the red man's word and that he won't go back on it. If an Indian tells you that he will sell you a piece of land for a certain price, you know that you will get it for that amount every time. Now, gentlemen, we are all United States citizens. We were all ad- mitted as citizens under the treaty. I told them that when I was in S. Kep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 22 330 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Washington two years ago. I said, " I am a United States citizen," and I told the committee that, and Senator Nelson was very much surprised when he found out that we were full-fledged United States citizens, and the only reason that we can't come into our own is be- cause the State is unsettled. That is the way it is looked on back there in the east, yet the fact is that right here in the Territory it is as well settled and has as many people in it to the square mile as has Kansas or Nebraska. When we get a State government down here they will probably change their mind. I see there is a Senator here from Connecticut. I hope he will learn something and be able to go back and tell his people that we are not quite as wild and uncivilized down here as the storybooks and illustrated papers make us out to be. Senator Beandegee. I certainly shall ; I have been telling them that for a long time. — A. They seem to think in the East that we still Avear blankets and live in wigwams, and a person is looked at incredu- lously when you state that right down here in this Indian Territory you will find Indians — real Indians — the direct and lineal descendants of the noble red man that are just as cultured and refined gentlemen and ladies as can be found in New York or anywhere else. I am not making any claim for myself, but I am not ashamed 'to be classed as an Indian. I am not a pure blood by any means, but if there were more Indian blood in me than there is I would not consider it a cause of shame. I want Congress to take these public buildings that we have here and pay us for them — take them and turn them into good agricultural and industrial institutions and if necessary give us more of them That is what the Indian wants — training as a farmer and artisan — training in habits of thrift and industry, and if he has it he will develop to a surprising extent. Take the tribal moneys and pay it over to us per capita and give us our lands, and treat us as you have declared we are — citizens with the rights, privileges, and immunities of citizens — and then if you still think we are not properly qualified, tender to us the oath of allegiance and we will take it ; but above all things, first be consistent 'with us and say once for all whether we are or are not what you have by solemn treaty proclaimed us to be. I don't believe we have a man, either full blood or otherwise, who can at all times manage his own affairs, but I know that the Avomen can. But if the men can't manage their affairs, the women can educate them. Well, I don't mean that seriously, gentlemen; you will pardon a little pleasantry at the expense of the men, but seriously I think some of the men can manage their own business. I have four sons and a son-in-law, and I think they can all handle their own affairs, but at times, considering some things they do, my faith is a little shaken in that proposition. Now, they say that one thing is certain, that a full blood can't do it. Well, perhaps that is so. I am sorry to say that it looks as if they were not sometinaes, but I will say this, that in every deal that the red man has had with the United States Government, or the governments that preceded it for the last two hundred years, the pure-blood Indian has been the last one to turn his land loose. It was always the half breeds and the mixed bloods that were willing to do it, and not the full bloods that wanted to give up the lands. The full bloods always stood out against relinquishing their land until the last and never yielded until FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 331 they were forced to. And to-day it is the same way — it is not the full blood, but the mixed blood who is willing to let the land go. So don't say that the Indian full blood will get rid of his land. The mixed blood will be landless in this country long before the full blood will be. However, I would like to dispose of my land and go to California and live. I want to leave this country, but I am not going to allow my desire to do that to interfere with my selling the land and porperty I have for every cent it is worth, so here is one Indian that will get what it is worth. Still, as I say, I would like to go to California. Q. So you think the full blood clings to his land more tenaciously than the half breeds or mixed bloods? — A. Yes, sir; far more tena- ciously than whites or any kind of mixed bloods. TJiat is the fact, gentlemen. The full blood won't sell his land, and that is the reason these grafters, are kicking. That is a condition that don't suit them at all. It is the full blood that is holding this country back. He Imows he has a title to his land. He is no fool. He knows what he has got, and he still has faith enough in our old guardian to believe that he will stand by him through thick and thin. Q. By " old guardian " you mean the United States ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is, the full bloods still retain their faith in the United States ? — A. Yes, sir ; they still believe it will stand by them through thick and thin, and they haven't any serious alarm at the final results. That is what we would all like to believe, and, personally, I believe the Government and people of the United States are well disposed toward us and would like to do the right thing, but the difficulty is to know what is right. We are governed, as has been said, at long range by an official who sits in a richly upholstered chair at a desk in Washington for perhaps two or three hours a day, and he has an army of inspectors, and one and another thing of that kind in this country, reporting to him on everything, and the only way he can see it is through their eyes, and sometimes that don't give him a true reflection of conditions here; but I suppose he does the best he can. We ought to be governed, if we must be governed, by some one right here. There is no reason or sense in having our active government over a thousand miles away, for all the conditions we have here are local conditions. As I said to one of our Senators — for he was my Senator as well as the Senator of anyone from one of the States — as I said to this Senator that the United States was our guardian and that the United States was represented by the Senate, for our treaty says the President of the United States and the Senate are our guar- dian ; it makes the people of the United States and the President and the Senate all parties to that agreement and our guardians. And I said that we never signed any kind of a paper or agreement since 1838, when the patent was issued. I know that was the time, for I have a copy of it here in this old book, and I think it is a pretty strong document, and I believe the United States will live right up to it to the best of its ability. I am not a bit afraid of my title to a share in this country. I know the full blood is not afraid, and I know that while he ofttimes comes to this old guardian as a suppliant, yet he does not fear at all for his land. He knows his rightsand he knows that his guardian knows them, and he has an abiding faith that this guardian will stand by him through thick and thin, and you 332 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. may depend on it that he will never accept a foot of land until he gets all that is coming to him. He is the most kindly dispositioned person in the world when he gets what is due him — only that, no more, no less ; but when he don't, knowing his rights, he sulks, and nothing short of a full granting of all his rights will bring him out of that condition. Now, while these men, these full bloods, very often can't read English they can read in their own language, and they understand this condition thoroughly; and they understand that whe«i this land is gone all that is theirs is gone irrevocably; they understand that this is the last stand — that there is no place else where he can go ; they understand that this is the last corner and patch that is left them out of the vast domain, the vast empire that was once theirs, which from a vast empire has melted down by degrees to this fraction. He knows that there was a patent for 14,000,000 acres of land issued to him in 1838, and he knows that he never parted to the title of one acre of that of his own free will. Now, there have been agreements and treaties made by some politicians amongst us, for I am sorry to say that we have politicians amongst us just as the whites have, not a bit better, and they couldn't be any worse; and while we were in bad shape when we made them we invariably found ourselves in worse condition after they were made. Treaties have been made and signed by our people that were not worth the paper they were written on, for we are citi- zens of the United States, and how can the United States treat us as wards and make a treaty with us that is binding? Here is the United States in the attitude of making a treaty with itself and with its own ward, acting for itself and the ward ; and who ever heard of a legal agreement being drawn up between a guardian acting for him- self and in his own behalf and his ward ? The fact is that we could Hot under those circumstances make a legal transaction ; so all these treaties are not worth legally the paper they are written on. Q. Did not the Cherokees ratify the treaty of 1902 and recognize it ? — A. No, sir ; because the Cherokees did not vote for that treaty. Q. They did not ? — A. No, sir ; it was white men and mixed bloods and negroes. They were admitted merely as citizens without prop- erty rights in the national domain. These were the, people whose citizenship was forced on us after the war of the rebellion. We were forced to take them in as citizens after the war of the rebellion and enfranchise them. Now, the Constitution states in that amended article that they have political rights only, and that was all that was given them. Now, prior to that time no colored person — ^not even a mulatto — was allowed to hold any political office, and was not at any time considered an heir to any of this property which the Indians bought and held down there. This patent — this treaty "of 1838— gave us this land here, and it did not say anything about giving it to any- one else — ^it was to the Indians and their descendants forever. Now, if I was to drop out to-morrow I should want a good guardian for my little girls, and I would, if I thought such a thing was going to happen, be looking for such a guardian now, and I would place them in his hands to look after, and that is just what the old Indian fore- fathers did, for they foresaw what would occur — that this land could not be kept sacred for them and their descendants — they saw that everybody would come crowding in as they had crowded in on them back there in their old homes, so the deal was jtnade, and they FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 333 relinquished an empire back there east of the Mississippi, and in return therefor got this kingdom out here in exchange therefor, with the solemn promise that the strong arm of this protector and guar- dian against all foes, enemies, or trespassers ; and the solemn promise was made that it should be theirs, and their children, and children's children forever ; and that they would protect them in the possession of it forever against all trespassers of other races and nations, and put out all intruders, and only allow good people to come in here. Well, one by one these promises were cut off; one by one these conditions were changed, for the trespasser and the intruder were allowed to come in. The civil war came on us, and we were left here without protection, a prey to Kansas Red Legs or to Missouri, Arkansas, or Texas freebooters; and each plundered and robbed us in turn, and we were helpless to defend ourselves for fear of violating our obliga- tions, and looked in vain to this guardian who had made these prom- ises to help us; but that guardian had other work to do. We do not blame the United States for what occurred then, for it was unavoid- able and could not be helped; but we do not think it was right to force all these negroes onto us after the war as a punishment for doing what we could not help. The Indians in the northern part of the Territory sympathized with the North, while those — or a great many of them — in the south, lying as they did on the Texas line, sympathized with the South. Many of them were slave owners and owned large numbers of negroes, and all these were enfranchised by the war and forced in onto us as citizens, though, we deny, without any right to share in the national domain. So it went; one by one the conditions were cut off until at length there was very little left to hang on to. So I say we have no fear over the matter of our title to this land, only we fear that we are going to have some trouble before this is settled. When we all under- stand that you are absolutely our guardian to watch over and protect us, and not to protect some other race, for the Government never mentioned any other race in a single one of these treaties. It was always the Indian people that were to be protected, and not the negro or some other race, and as far as my people were concerned, it was simply to protect the Cherokee Indians. For many years the Gov- ernment of the United States did protect us. They built forts down here and they sent troops here to protect us, and as tresspassers and intruders came in the troops put them out for many long years, but they kept returning and coming in ever increasing numbers until finally it was impossible for the troops to put them out and keep them and then people will say that we squander our property and don't They forced us to do that, and paid us a tithe of what it was worth ; and, then, people will say that we squander our property and don't know how to keep it, and point to what we once had compared with what we now have as proof. No, gentlemen, the Indian full blood has never ceded a foot of land voluntarily. "When he has done so it has been because he could not help it. It was not a mistake, for a thing that can't be avoided is not a mistake. When I was at Wash- ington and was showing these things up — and I had the documents to back up my position, and I was telling them about it — ^Mr. Nevison, who seemed to be specially well informed, said : " I had no idea that you had any such papers as that. Why didn't you come and tell us about it before," and I said : " I thought you knew it," and he said he 334 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. did not know it. Now, there was a well-informed man who you would have thought would have known all about it, if anybody would, and yet he did not know it. Now, gentlemen, it is through our land down here that this deplorable state of affairs has been brought about. If we had a country down here that was bar- ren and had neither agricultural nor mineral wealth, the white men would not bother us, but unfortunately for some of us we have both, and therefore the trouble. Take this oil and gas-land business. They have loaded our rolls down tremendously with these colored people, and they have been allotted allotments in the very best part of the oil regions, and see what they do with it. They sell it to the first person that comes along for anything that thej^ can get. Talk about the Indian not knowing how to take care of his property. The col- ored men were brought in here by the old slave owners among the Indians or by slave dealers away back in the slavery days, and they were literally turned loose on us. We did not want them nor their presence, but the Government would not turn them out. They did not belong to the Indians, for the Cherokee Indians never had slaves. They were left here on our hands, and we, the innocent parties, that never enslaved a being in all our lives, were punished for an offense that they had never committed. Well, they were left on our hands, and in the war of the rebellion everybody was driven out of the coun- try and everything we had in the world was ravished from us, stolen or destroyed. Our improvements were ruined, our buildings in pure wantonness burned. My family was north at the time, and when the 1866 treaty was made they were forced in on us, for we did not want them — never have wanted them, and don't want them now. Yes, gentlemen, they were forced in on us because a small part of our people rebelled, and the greater number were punished for the fault of the lesser. But it is said that we agreed to it — well, what if we did ? I don't admit that we did — I deny it, but what if we did ? We were minors, and can a minor bind himself in that way ? I am not a lawyer, but I think that you gentlemen are lawyers, and if you were in court with a case and could avail yourself of that point I am sure you would do it, and the court would sustain you. But wedid not agree to it. You put all these people onto us — forced them onto us — gave them the right of citizens, and then come in and secure a ratification of a so-called treaty. More- over, this so-called treaty says that they shall be " deemed " citizens. Now, the word " deemed," according to Webster, means the same as " think " — and it said that we would take them and deem them citi- zens; that left it optional with us, and we could do as we please; we could deem them citizens, or, acording to Webster, " think " that they were citizens, and there you are. It did not say that they would be citizens, or must be citizens, but that we might deem them citizens. Now, so says the franchise, and I submit that that did not make citi- zens of them in any sense of the word, although probably usage has made them so with civil rights only. Our old chief, John Ross, when this treaty was put before him while on his death bed to sign — when he saw that the treaty gave him equal rights and privileges to share in our lands and public domain— but I will read it (reading same) , he ran his hand through that and said : " No ; never while I have the breath to write will I ever sign that. As far as their being citizens is concerned, I can't help that, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 335 because the Government forced them onto us, but I will never sign away your property rights." Then, in 1878, almost forty years later, a law was made to alter that condition ; and so it went — change after change was forced onto us, and all the while we could see what it was coming to — a guardian coercing his ward to do things that the ward did not want to do, but was too weak and helpless to resist. According to the law of England and the United States, and every civilized nation contracts are held to be inviolable except with the consent of the parties to it, and that consent must be entirely free and volun- tary — - By the Chairman : Q. Excepting with the consent of both parties? — A. I know that is the rule, but it could not be in our case, because we are the wards, or were the wards, and are treated as such yet, of one party — we were your wards until you turned us loose, if we are loose yet. You say you have turned us loose, but it seems that there are a good many strings tied to us yet. It seems to me that we are tied hand and foot, and can't use anything that we have unless we are specially permitted to do so. I have a town site platted and I think I could sell the lots if it was not for these restrictions; I would get some good, honest man to go on it and occupy it, and I would let him have it for five years rent free if he would go on it and stay there. There are lots of good, honest farmers down here that would be benefited and it would do good all round. The Indians that had their children in colleges had to take them out, for the conditions got so that they could not rent their lands so that they would produce any rent, and they couldn't lease it, so they had to go to work and do something else. Now, if these restrictions were removed, the honest farmer and voter would come in here and he would take the land. He would buy it and pay for it if he could get it that way, and he would see my certificate and know that he was safe if he bought it. Now the grafter don't want the restrictions removed on everybody — not by any means. It would spoil his business if they were removed, so he would rather it re- mained as it is. As it is, the bona fide settler coming in — the man who comes with the intention of staying and raising a family here, can't put out a dollar safely, and if he wants land, he has to go to the grafter to get it and pay two or three prices for it. Naturally, he is not going to do that ; but the grafter goes along making his contracts with the Indians for their land when the restrictions are specially removed, and he knows that his contract is not worth the paper it is written on, but he knows that he has something better than his con- tract to fall back on, and that is the honor of an Indian. So any way you look at it it is wrong. Take the case of the full blood — that man is admitted to citizenship, and that man should be allowed to attend to his own business. You have no right to keep leading strings on him. It is simply working a hardship, and if you look at it as I do you will simply see that it is crowding out honest men and bringing in a bad class of shyster lawyers, who expect to thrive and fatten on the deplorable condition that prevails. This is the land for the lawyer ; they do better here than any place in the world, I guess, and the bigger shyster he is, the better he gets along. It is, above all things, the haven of refuge — the heaven, I may say, of the grafter and the shyster. Now, we have some good lawyers here, and they 336 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. are honest men, and clean men, who do not engage in disreputable business, but you must understand that there is a very large element here of the shyster class. And then there is the grafter — ^he generally understands some law, which enables him to sail so close to the wind that he can keep out of the penitentiary. This limited knowledge of the law enables them to see a way around the Secretary's restric- tions, and they manage to get around it, if not one way, then another. Now, what the grafter wants is land — first, last, and all the time — land. He would buy my land to-morrow if he could get it at his price, but he would not take it at my price. The grafter is a curious compound — ^he is honest, in his way. When he makes a contract he will generally carry it out strictly, for part of his capital is the estab- lishment of a reputation for square dealing in that way. Oh, no; he is not without his virtues. The objection to them is that they take advantage of the ignorance of the ignorant, which they are able to do on account of these restrictions, and they shut out the honest home builder who would like to come with us and build his home along with us. They take chances that no one else will take, and they are able to do this because they know all the rules of the game. They are good students, and they have learned the game thoroughly, and no body is in it but them when it comes to playing it. Q. Well, do you think the restriction should be removed by some general act? — A. Yes, sir. Now, just consider a little the situation with one citizen restricted and all tied up so that he can't move in a business way and another that is not ; and yet the law says that they shall have equal rights. The Constitution guarantees each equal rights, and here is one citizen who has every right and here is another who can't sell a thing he has. Here you are inviting us to come iato this great Union with an equal right and on the same footing of the other States, and yet more than one-half of us, or the biggest part of us, find that we have our land all tied up with restrictions. I say it is absurd and a contradiction in terms to say that we have equal rights, and if it is permitted longer the Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee equal rights to everyboody, is a farce. It leaves us abso- lutely in the hands of the grafter and at their mercy, for if we want money, we have nothing to raise it on but our land, and we can't get a dollar anywhere except from the grafter. Q. Now, there is one question I want to ask you ? — ^A. Pardon me a moment. I will let you have thai book, Mr. Chairman, and I hope you and the committee will look over itj and I think you will find that our laws under our tribal government were very just and equitable, and the case that I have in mind, which I illustrated to you — ^my own case about my own allotment--according to these old laws would have been settled without a law suit or any trouble whatever. Q. Well, we will examine it. — A. Now, I am done; I will simply say that if the grafter was shut out, or things were arranged that he would find himself without an occupation, the honest man would come in here. Q. Are you going to submit anything in written form? — ^A. Yes, sir ; I will leave you a lot of information, all type written ; so you won't have any more trouble with me. I want to go down emphatically in your record as being against restrictions, not only for the half breeds and mixed bloods, but for the full bloods and everybody. Sweep them FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 337 all away, for they are the curse and blight of this country. Sweep them all away on everybody and don't place a restriction on the deal- ing in land no more than on anything else. If the Government of the United States will treat the people down here, whatever their blood may be, as they are treated in other localities, there need be no fear but that they will do as well as anywhere. I am sorry, gentlemen, for taking up so much of your time. I had no idea I talked as long as I did, but I won't detain you any longer. Thank you. STATEMENT OF MB. W. H. WALKER. By the Chairman : Q. Where do you live, or what is your post-office? — A. Tahlequah. Q. What is your business ? — A. I am assistant secretary to the chief of the Cherokee Nation. Q. What is your citizenship ? — A. Cherokee, by blood. Q. Are you mixed blood? — ^A. Yes, sir; one-eighth Cherokee. Q. And the balance white ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you wish to say ? — A. I want to speak to the committee on this question of the removal of restrictions for a moment. Q. Very well; proceed. — A. I can probably illustrate it better by taking my own case. I am one-eighth Cherokee. I have three chil- dren that I have allotted for, and one that I have not filed for yet, and there is my wife and myself who have filed also, making in all about five hundred and fifty acres that my wife, myself, and my family have. Now there is about 150 acres of that land that is not good agricultural land. It is a cheap grade of land. Now, I am illus- trating the point I want to make by my own experience. I made application about five months ago to the Secretary of the Interior to have the restrictions removed from my surplus allotment, and although five months have passed I have never had a hearing on it yet, and there has been no action taken at all. Q. Well, what do you expect this committee to do? — A. Well, I call your attention to these delays in these matters with the hope that Congress will do something to remove the trouble. (qi. Where did you make your application? — A. Through a repre- sentative of the Indian agent's office here who was there at Tahle- quah, where they come from time to time to attend to any business there may be for them to do. I requested the Indian agent here, Mr. Kelsey, to make a special recommendation in the case if he would, as he has authority to do under the rules. Q. Did he make it special ? — A. I am not sure, but I — well, I don't know, and I have not asked him about it. His representative that was over there at Tahlequah, to whom I made the application, told me that he thought he would do it without question. Q. And that was five months ago ? — A. Yes, sir ; it was in the last of May sometime, and this is November — ^it is more than five months ago. Now the point I want to get at is the slow action that is taken in these cases like mine. There can be no objection to the removal of my restrictions. I believe that everybody who knows me will cer- tify that I am about as capable of running my own business safely and carefully as the average white man. I think that Mr. Kelsey 338 FIV^E CIVILIZED TRIBES. himself will certify to that, and there can be no objection on that ground. Now, I don't blame Mr. Kelsey, I think he does the best he can and that the business in his office is attended to as weU and expeditiously as is possible, but I think the trouble occiifs down there in the Department of Indian affairs at Washington. There is more or less delay in every case, but in some of them it is very great and very annoying, for it is hard to think that in a case like mine they could not get action on it in nearly six months. We are feehng that these delays are brought about under the present regulations, and that they are unreasonable and unwarranted, and we feel that Congress should take it up and make a general order. Q. Removing restrictions? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think that should include full bloods? — A. Well, I don't know about that. I have been among them all my life — was practically born among them and haye been brought up among them, and I think I know them just about as well as anybody, and when it comes to saying that I would make the order so sweeping as to include them, I have to stop and think. Now, I'll tell you the way it is. There should be distinctions — there should be some discretion shown. I don't believe it would do to take it off all of them. There are a great many among them — men like Mr. Gritts, who was here- before you and made a statement — there are men among them like him who are competent to handle their own affairs. Q. So you think there are some of the full bloods who are compe- tent to manage their affairs in a safe manner ? — A. Yes, sir ; and on the other hand a great majority of them are not. Q. To what extent would you remove the restrictions on the mixed bloods ? — A. Now, it is the mixed bloods — well, I believe it should be a general order. Q. Removing all restrictions? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On the homestead and all ? — A. No, sir ; I don't think I would take it off the homesteads. No ; I would leave it on the homesteads, for there are people that ought to be protected in their homesteads. Q. Then, you would not approve taking it off the homesteads?— A. No, sir, I would not; for if you did that I know that he would soon have a great many people who would be homeless. Q. What conditions would you recommend as to the removal of restrictions from the full bloods? — A. Well, I believe it should be done through the United States courts in each case and making a special and separate examination into the merits of each application and a special investigation as to the fitness of the full blood to have them removed, and it should be done by hearing evidence like in any ordinary suit in court. Q. You think, then, that there should be no general law passed by Congress removing the restrictions on any of their lands? — A. No, sir ; I don't believe it would be a good idea. I think it ought to be a court proceeding as I have described. I think each case should be handled separately in the case of the full bloods. Now, I want to impress upon the committee the fact that there is a very great necessity for some relief on this restriction business as far as. the half breeds are concerned, because we are soon going to have a new State down here, and there is a problem confronting us as to how we are going to carry on our local government without some FIVE CIYILIZED TRIBES. 339 taxable property. We can't carry on any kind of government with- out having something that is taxable. Q. Then you do not object to be taxed? — A. No, sir. Q. You are perfectly willing to be taxed? — A. Yes, sir. If I am to be a citizen in this new State I want to bear my share of the expense of running the State. Q. You wish to be a good citizen? — A. I do. Q. And you think it is the duty of every good citizen to pay his due share toward the expense of running the State and local county or city governments ? — A. I do. Q. Are there many more like you down here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You say that you are secretary to the chief? — A. I am one of them. He has three secretaries, and I am one of them. I have been one of his secretaries for three years now. Q. The chief's name is Rogers, I believe? — A. Yes, sir; W. E. Rogers. In my position I have an opportunity to know what the senGment of the people is on any question, and I think I know what it is on the question of removal of restrictions. Q. Has Mr. Rogers ever passed any opinion, or has he ever expressed any opinion, either public or private, on that question — that is, inj-egard to the removal of restrictions? — A. Well, I have heard him say so privately — yes, and publicly, too, but not in an official capacity. He would make suggestions along that line. Q. His views are similar to yours? — -A. Yes, sir; I think so. Q. How about your people — the Cherokees? — A. I think it would be the sentiment of a great majority of them that the restrictions should be removed. Well, now these people who have come here and who have homes here — if the people who desire to come here and make their homes with us — ^if there was a general order made that they could come h^re and buy their homes and improve them and live on them — if they would come in or were allowed to come in and buy this land from the allottees it would be a great thing for the country and for the people who own the land, for, as a rule, they are poor and haven't anything, and if they could sell their surplus land or part of it, say, they could go at work improving their homestead and have a comfortable place to live; they would have the means of getting a start, and that is what most of them need; and another good thing would be that the land would sell for what it is worth in the market the same as it does in the State. If that was done it would just about shut out the speculator. Q. Is that the class of gentlemen who have been referred to many times since we began this investigation as the " grafter ? " — A. Yes, sir. I will call him the speculator — for that is what he is. If this was done I believe there would be a very great and sudden advance in the prices paid for land. This is a great country; it is all right, and some day everybody will admit it is all right. All it wants is half a chance, and it will show the country a thing or two. I am free to say that we would much rather see it settled up by a good class of farmers and put in crops — settled by people who know how to farm, for their way of doing things would oe an object lesson to our peo- ple, and that is what they need more than anything else — that and money with which to get a start. Thank you, gentlemen. 340 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. STATEMENT OF MR. C. F. HUDDLESON. By Senator Long : Q. What is your post-office address ? — A. Okemah, Ind. T. Q. You may proceed with your statement. — A. At the last session of Congress in the Indian appropriation bill there was a little clause- just a little short sentence — which reads like this, " in the act making appropriations to sujoply deficiencies in the appropriations for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1906, and for prior years and for other purposes." The part that I refer to removes certain restrictions. Now, I know an Indian who is about 64 or 65 years of age; he is a full blood and don't speak a word of English; he is very illiterate and a confirmed drunkard. In the year 1901 his allotment was on a new railroad where the depot was about to be established, and the Secretary removed the restrictions off 120 acres of his land. Since that time something like from $40,000 to $50,000 worth of improve- ments have been placed on that homestead. It stood there for three or four years and we were never able to get the Secretary to remove the restrictions until this act of Congress was passed. Now, the trouble is that there are three Nocus Fixicos. That is where the trouble comes up — there is three of them in the Creek Nation, each of them having an allotment and each of them being the same age, about, and each having a homestead — it does not describe the Indian nor the land. Now, that is the only thing on that homestead that saved these people from being robbed of their homesteads. He was taken to Guthrie, Okla., Topeka, Kans., and to Kansas City, and kept there two weeks. The President signed the appropriation on April 26, in Washington, and on the 27th he signed a general warranty deed in Kansas City, where he was at the time conveying this land and all the improvements on it away, and they paid him $2,000 in money for it. Well, he only got $200 of it in cash at that time, but they afterwards placed the rest to his credit in a bank. I will read his sworn complaint, for a suit was afterwards filed to set aside the deed on the ground of undue influence or duress. By the Chairman : Q. Have you a case pending ? — 4- Yes, sir. Now, what the people want is that a general curative act be passed by Congress. The opin- ion is universal that that bill did not take the restrictions off any land, for the reason that it is too indefinite and nonoperative, and if that is so, the party that paid that sum of money thinking he was getting this land is just out that amount of money. They have paid out their money and are simply out a couple of thousand dollars ; but I have been informed and understand that they intend to get another act through Congress that will cure the defects in this one ; but we want nothing done curing that case. What we want is an act authorizing any Indian to sell anything he has excepting only his homestead. The ordinary Indian, if he gets hold of money, will go off and fill up on whisky. Q. Can he get that here in the Territory ? — A. You just bet he can; and he should not be allowed to sell his homestead. He can sell his surplus. Let him sell it, for it won't do him any good anywaj^, but don't let him sell his homestead. It won't do him any good, either, but he has a place he can go to, and it will be his home anyway and FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 341 keep him off the public, for otherwise he would become a public charge. What we want is that Congress pass an act removing the restrictions on the land and allow them to have it upon paying, say, $100 or $125 an acre for it, and then leave that fund under the control of the Secretary, and he could pay it out monthly, say at the rate of $25 a month for each child, and at that rate in this case it would last him one hundred and sixty months, which would be about as long a time as he would live. He is 67 or 68 years old, and probably would not live longer than that anyway, so let him have it. By Senator Teller : Q. Do you realize that we can not do that, for this man is a citizen of the United States. If that act is void, that is just the shape the purchaser is in ; he is out his money and can not get it back. — A. Well, I don't agree with you. Senator. I think you can do that very thing and not avoid any constitutional right. Q. Is this man a full-blood Indian? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. What nation? — A. He is a Creek. In this same appropriation bill there is a provision by which the Secretary may remove the pro- visions — I mean the restrictions — a provision by which the Secretary may remove the restrictions for town-site purposes, but we had an application in there for four or five months and could not get it heard. Q. Do you mean that the Indian Office is overcrowded with busi- ness? — A. Well, it was filed under Tams Bixby down here; it was filed here and has never reached the Indian Office. Q. The petition is in the Interior Department. — Well, it never has reached it if -it is. They have filed it with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I think ; but I don't know what has become of it. Q. Why did you not present the matter to him? — A. Well, we are waiting to hear from him. He will write when he gets ready and say that the matter has been received and will receive due attention. That is all there is to it. The committee took a recess till 8 o'clock p. m., when it reassembled. MtrsKOGEE, Ind. T., Thursday, November 15, 1906. EVENING SESSION. Present : Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming, chairman ; Long, Brandegee, and Teller. The Chairman. Mr. Webster Ballinger has a matter which he de- sires to present for the consideration of the committee, and we have told him that he can take this occasion to make his presentation. It is a matter somewhat different from what we have been considering to-day, and we shall be obliged to Mr. Ballinger if he will state as clearly and concisely and briefly as possible the nature of the propo- sition which he has on hand. I will say that Mr. Ballinger has asked the committee to send for certain records of the Dawes Com- mission, and also certain persons whom he wishes examined on the subject-matter that he has under consideration, and the committee have complied with his request. 342 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. STATEMENT OE MR. WEBSTEE, BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, this matter per^ tains to the enrollment of citizens of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, persons of mixed Indian and negro blood. They claim the right to enrollment as citizens under the treaty of 1830, under which the land was granted to the Choctaw Nation. The terms of Article II of that treaty are: "Article II. The United States under a grant specially to be made by the President of the United States shall cause to be conveyed to the Choctaw Nation a tract of country west of the Mississippi River, in fee simple to them and their descendants, to inure to them while they shall exist as a nation and live on it," and it then goes on to describe the land, as follows : " Beginning near Fort Smith, where the Arkansas boimdary crosses the Arkansas Eiver, running thence to the source of the Canadian Fork ; if in the limits of the United States or to those limits ; thence due south to Eed Eiver and down Eed Eiver to the west boundary of the Territory of Ar- kansas ; thence north along that line to the beginning. The boundary of the same to be agreeably to the treaty made and concluded at Wash- ington City in the year 1825. The grant to be executed as soon as the present treaty shall be ratified." The Chickasaw Nation at a subsequent date purchased a property right in the Choctaw Nation, taking their property identically the same as the Choctaws had acquired their title. In 1866 the question arose of the freeing of the slaves then held by the Choctaws and Chickasaws absolutely^ and a joint treaty was entered into between the Government of the United States and the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations whereby the slaves were given their freedom, and it was specifically provided in that agreement that the slaves should be adopted into the tribe, with all the rights, privileges, and immunities of any other citizens of those nations except as to participation in the tribal funds and lands. The slaves were to be given not to exceed 40 acres of land each. . This case now arises out of the intermarriage between the Choc- taws and Chickasaws and the ex-slaves, and relates to the descendants of those marriages. The rights of these people have never been de- nied directly by legislation. On the contrary, in the act of 1896 Congress directed the Commission to enroll these people. In the act of 1897 Congress directed the Commission to enroll these people. In the act of 1898 Congress again directed the Commission to enroll these people, under the laws passed in preceding years. Senator Long. These descendants? Mr. Ballingbr. Yes, sir ; these descendants. Senator Long. What is the language ? Mr. Ballingee. I have it right here. This is the provision of the act of 1896, relating to this subject: That said Commission is further authorized and directed to proceed at once to hear and determine the application of all persons who may apply to them for citizenship in any of said nations, and after such hearing they shall determine the right of such applicant to be so admitted and enrolled: Provided, however, That such application shall be made to such commissioners within three months after the passage of this act. The said Commission shall decide all such appli- cations within ninety days after the same shall be made. That in determining all such applications said Commission shall respect all laws of the several na- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 343 tions or tribes not Inconsistent with tlie laws of the United States, and all treaties with either of said nations or tribes, and shall give due force and efCect to the rolls, usages, and customs of each of said nations or tribes. The treaty of 1830 provided for their enrollment. That is, it pro- vided that they should take equally with all other Indians in the distribution of the property. The property was given to the people then members of the Choctaw Nation and their descendents ; given by the treaty of 1830 and the patent issued in 1842. This act — the act of 1896 — directed the Commission to enroll those who were entitled to enrollment under the laws and treaties of the United States. Senator Beandegee. For the purpose of your inquiry, is it neces- sary to determine now whether or not these people are entitled to go on the roll? Mr. Ballingee. I take it that that is a matter that may provoke considerable discussion, and that it is matter that may properly be postponed to some subsequent day, when you may take it up in Wash- ington or elsewhere. Senator Long. Just state the points of contention between the two sides on this proposition. Mr. Ballingee. The proposition in brief is thi^: That the Com- mission construed the law of 1898 to mean that descendants of inter- married negroes and Indians took only the status of the servile parent, namely, the negro, and accordingly enrolled them as freed- men. As a result of that construction we find a peculiar condition of aifairs existing, by which a father appears upon the roll of citizens by blood, while his children appear upon the freedmen roll ; and by which a father and mother appeared upon the roll of citizens by blood with some of the children upon that roll and others upon the freedmen roll ; and so on all through. Senator Long. How could that happen ? Mr. Ballingee. I can not understand. Senator Long. How could a citizen father and a citizen mother have children on the freedmen's roll? Mr. Ballingee. I am not prepared to answer that, Senator. Senator Long. You state it as a fact that that condition exists ? Mr. Ballingee. I state it as a fact that that condition does exist. I have the records here and will offer them as exhibits at the proper time. I desire to read the act of 1898. These were the instructions Con- gress gave the Commission in that act : That in making rolls of citizenship of the several tribes as required by law the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes * * * is authorized and di- rected to make correct rolls of the citizens by blood of all the other tribes, eliminating from the tribal rolls such names as may have been placed thereon by fraud or without authority of law, enrolling such only as may have lawful right thereto, and their descendants born since such rolls were made wilih such intermarried white persons as may be entitled to Choctaw or Cliickasaw citi- zenship under the treaties and laws of said tribes. Under that act the Commission sent out notices to the people of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations to come in. For what purpose ? For the purpose of examination and identification. Parties of mixed Indian and negro blood appeared before the committee at the times stated in the notices and at the places specified in the notices. When persons of mixed Indian and negro blood applied to the Commission 344 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. for enrollment as citizens, the Commission directed them to proceed to another place where freedmen only were enrolled, and they there examined these parties solely as to their descent from their negro ancestors. I have the records here and will offer them at the proper time to sustain these statements. Having made a record of the descent of these parties from negroes, those records were not transcribed for four years, and they were not accessible to either the applicant or his attorneys until a little over a year ago, and then only by direction of the Secretary of the Inte- rior. In the meantime Congress passed a law under data of May 31, 1900, in which it was provided that the Commission should not there- after receive any application for the enrollment of persons. These people were barred then from making application and the Com-* mission construed the appearance of those parties before it under the act of 1898 as an application. How they reached that conclusion is a mystery to me, but they did, and they refused to consider an application for the transfer of the names of these parties from the freedmen roll to the roll of the citizens by blood. A test case arose The Chairman. Let me ask you right there, if it will not interrupt you, How many individuals are affected by this proposition of yours, who were placed on the freedmen roll ? Mr. BAiJCiiNGER. Senator, there are between 1,000 and 2,000 persons. Senator Long. Persons that are now on the freedmen's roll? Mr. Ballingee. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Persons that you claim should be placed on the citi- zen roll? Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In both nations? Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. They have had their 40 acres? Mr. Ballinger. They have been allotted their 40 acres of land. When they refused to take their allotments the Commission arbitrarily allotted them 40 acres. Senator Long. If placed on the citizen roll what would they get? Mr. Ballinger. They would then get 320 acres. Senator Long. Not in addition to the allotment? Mr. Ballinger. Oh, no. The freedmen allotment would be can- celed. They were entitled to be on the citizen roll long before that. And in addition they would be entitled to share in the tribal funds. They would be citizens, in fact. A test case was made — the case of Joe and Dillerd Perry. The Department held that the descendants of persons of Indian blood, whether the ancestor intermarried with a negro or with a white per- son, was entitled to enrollment under the treaty of 1830 and the pat- ent issued under that treaty. The Chairman. That was held by the Interior Department? Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir. An appeal was taken in that case and it went before the Assistant Attorney-General and two or three of his assistants who sat as a cou»t of review. They sat for two or three days. Mr. Cornish argued the case before them. Under the law it was held that if these parties had made or attempted to make an assertion of right prior to December 24, 1902, they were entitled to enrollment as citizens. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 345 There is a little history connected with that case which I will bring out later. After that decision was rendered by the Department, Mr. Bixby, the chairman of the Five Civilized Tribes Commision, went to Washington and secured the enactment of section 4 in the Five Civi- lized Tribes bill, which provided that no name should be transferred from the freedmen roll to the roll of citizens by blood unless the record in charge of the Commission — mark you, those were made under the act of 1898, and these persons were denied by the Com- mission the right to make application for enrollment as citizens by blood — unless those records showed that the party had made an appli- cation or attempted to make an application for enrollment as a citizen. Since that time there has not been to my knowledge, and I have made inquiry relative to it, a single case favorably adjudicated by the Com- mission for the transfer from the freedmen roll to the roll of citizens by blood, but on the contrary, every petition acted on by the Com- mission to the present time has been denied. That, in brief, is a statement of our case. The Chairman. What is it that you want ? Mr. Ballingee. I want to secure legislation so mandatory in its terms that the Commission will be compelled to transfer these parties from the freedmen roll to the roll of citizens by blood. They are entitled to that by the laws of Congress and the treaties with the United States, and under the constitutions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and under every act that has ever been passed by any competent tribunal, except the act of April 26, 1906. The Chairman. In the statement which you have filed before the committee I take it from a careful reading of it that you are claiming at this time that the failure of these people to get upon the roll of citi- zenship is very largely due, if not to the intentional wrong action, at least to the gross negligence in the performance of duty of certain officers, which you have specified in your statement. Mr. Ballingee. I do, Mr. Chairman. I not only state that it is due to gross negligence, but I charge here and now that it was inten- tional, and that they have asserted at various times that these parties should not be transferred if they could prevent it. The Chaieman. You certainly, Mr. Ballinger, are aware of the fact that a charge of that sort against an official of the United States Government is a pretty serious charge to make, and I take it that you would not make such a charge in writing unless you wore prepared by proper evidence to sustain it. Mr. Ballingee. I certainly would not. The Chaieman. You have asked the committee to request the pres- ence of certain officers connected with the Government of the United States that you might examine them on these points. Notice has been g?ven to these officers. Some of them are in the room at this time; and if it is your desire to examine them, I think it is the sense of the committee that you now have that privilege. Mr. Ballingee. I should like to call to the stand Mr. Franklin. He is not an officer, but I desire to take his testimony first. The Chaieman. Do you want this to be a statement merely or an examination under oath? Mr. Ballingee. I desire it given under oath. The Chairman. Mr. Franklin will be sworn- S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 2.3 ' 346 ^IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. I should like to ask Mr. Ballinger one question. Do you contend that the Commission adopted a wrong rule for deter- mining citizenship or that they deliberately intended to prevent these persons being placed on the roll after they knew that they were enti- tled to be there ? Mr. Ballinger. I assert this, Senator : That at the time the Com- mission reached its conclusions as to the rights of these parties, they probably acted through error. I am not prepared to assert anything else. But I do say that since that time there has been a deliberate attempt upon the part of the officers of the Commission — certain offi- cers of the Commission — to defeat the rights of these parties. Mr. WiET Franklin was then duly sworn by the chairman. TESTIMONY OF WIRT FBANKLIN. Direct examination by Mr. Ballinger : Mr. Ballinger. State your full name, occupation, and residence. Mr. Franklin. Wirt Franklin; lawyer; Indian Territory. Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Franklin, were you ever connected with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir ; I was employed by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. I was sworn in on February 18, 1902, as stenographer, which position I held until April, 1904, when I was appointed to the position of law clerk in the preparation of decisions in the Choctaw and Chickasaw enrollment division of the Commission. From that time up to October, 1905, 1 was engaged in the preparation of decisions and of partial rolls of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations — rolls of persons that were entitled to be citizens of those nations — that were forwarded to the Secretary of the Interior from time to time for his approval. Mr. Ballinger. You say you were an attorney of the Choctaw and Chickasaw enrollment division? Mr. Franklin. I was employed as such from October, 1904, until October, 1905, at which time I resigned. Mr. Ballinger. From whom did you receive your orders relative to citizenship matters? Mr. Franklin. I was under the direction and supervision of Wil- liam O. Beall, who was chief clerk of the Choctaw and Chickasaw division when I went to work for the Commission, and was later secretary to the Commission, and since July, 1905, has been secretary to the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, and in his absence Acting Commissioner. Mr. Ballinger. During the time you were with the Commission as attorney did Mr. Beall instruct you as to how you should write up decisions ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Regardless of the law and the evidence? Mr. Franklin. Well, I remember one instance which I consider was regardless of the law and the evidence ; yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. State that case. Mr. Franklin. It was at the time the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court was in session, and they had before that court the case of Molsey Butler, who was one of those applicants in the case^i to which you have referred in your opening statement. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 347 At the time this decision was rendered by the Choctaw and Chicka- saw citizenship court there were a good many cases of a parallel nature that were yet to be decided by the Commission, and I had the records of those cases on my desk, ready to prepare the decisions in the cases. The decision in the Molsey Butler case came out, and my recollec- tion is that Mr. Beall came into the room, where I was sitting at the time at my desk, and laid this opinion of the citizenship court on my desk, with a statement to the effect : " Here, Franklin, is this Molsey Butler opinion ; deny all these niggers, following this opinion." Senator Long. What was that opinion ? Mr. Franklin. It was the opinion which held that the servile an- cestry of an applicant, although an applicant was possessed of Indian blood, debarred that applicant from enrollment. I got that opinion, and on looking it over I could not see that it was the law and in accordance with the opinions of the Attorney- General and the Secretary in like questions. I looked up a good many Cherokee cases, and found that the court had uniformly held that any Indian blood made one an Indian, regardless of what the other blood was, whether white or negro ; that the Indian blood fixed the status. Mr. Ballinger. The citizenship court took the other view? Mr. Franklin. Yes, in the Molsey Butler case. Mr. Ballinger. Do you know whether the Commission followed the Molsey Butler case in any of the cases ? Mr. Franklin. I believe they did in the case of marryirig-out of the intermarried citizens ; not in this class of cases. Mr. Ballinger. But in this class of cases ? Mr. Franklin. No; I do not believe they did, although I was di- rected to deny all those cases. He said deny all those niggers. I prepared decisions at the time denying all those negro applicants who were on the tribal rolls of the nation, and, although there was considerable comment on it, those that were on the tribal roll went three. The others, I believe, were denied. Mr. Ballinger. Did he say anything to you about denial regardless of the records ? Mr. Franklin. The statement was : " Deny all those niggers, fol- lowing the Molsej^ Butler case," or words to that effect. I can not be certain of the exact words. Mr. Ballinger. Did you write up any decisions afterwards — sub- mit them to Mr. Beall thereafter, and did he reject them? Mr. Franklin. I have written a great many decisions which he has sent back with notice on them how to reform them. Mr. Ballinger. Is Mr. Beall a lawyer ? Mr. Franklin. I think he studied law; yes, sir. I understand that he is a graduate of a law school. Mr. Ballinger. Did you ever prepare cases of this kind contrary to those instructions? Mr. Franklin. Those cases of mixed Indian and negro blood? Mr. Ballinger. Yes. Mr. Fbanklin. Yes, sir ; at that time I looked all over those Chero- kee cases for precedents, and I could not find any decisions of the Department that would uphold the Molsey Butler opinion, and it was not my idea of the law on the point. I could not see that the servile 348 E'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ancestry had anything to do with the citizenship ; ajid in cases where the applicants were on the tribal rolls I prepared decisions enrolling the applicants, and as I said a while ago I think that those decisions finally went through after considerable discussion; but that was in direct conflict with this order. Mr. Ballinger. Did they go through with Mr. Beall's approval, or over his protest? Mr. Franklin. I could not say. Mr. Ballinger. What are you doing now, Mr. Franklin ? - Mr. Franklin. I am in partnership with Mr. Apple at Ardmore. Mr. Ballinger. When did you leave the service of the Commis- sion? Mr. Franklin. In October, 1905. Mr. Ballinger. Since that time have you had any diiSculty with the Commission in securing access to records in the cases in which you appeared as attorney ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir; although at the time I quit Mr. Beall and Mr. Bixby both insisted on my remaining in the service of the Commission, in the preparation of the rolls of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, the Commission from that day to this have dis- criminated against me, and, I understand, against others, though I can only testify as to myself. The Chairman. I do not know that that is material. Mr. Ballinger. I am coming to something that I think is im- portant. . The Chairman. If you make it material, very well ; but you must bear in mind that we must get through. Mr. Ballinger (to the witness). Did he ever deny you access to the records of the cases in which you appeared as attorney ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. If so, what cases? Mr. Franklin [exhibiting a paper]. Here is a slip — the original slip on which I made application to Mr. Beall to see the records in cases in which I was employed. There are 12 cases here. I pre- sented them to him. I had applied in each case with the applicant. There was no question of my being employed. My name appeared on the record. Mr. Ballinger. An examination of those records was essential to the proper preparation of the cases, was it ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Did he make any remark at the time he denied you that right? Mr. Franklin. He denied me arbitrarily ; said I could not take up the Commission's time fooling with those cases, or words to that effect. Senator Brandegee. Were those cases of this character that you are talking about, Mr. Ballinger? Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir. [To the witness.] Do you know of any suppression of records by the Commission? Mr. Franklin. May 28 and 29, 1906, in a Choctaw case, they absolutely refused to make an entry in record relative to the tribal enrollment of Sarah J. Darken, although at the time I insisted that the statement was made. I found the applicant's name on a tribal roll. He would not put it in the record. I insisted on putting it in the record .myself , and he directed the stenographer not to take the FIVE crvrrLizED tbibes. 349 record I was making. The transcript of the proceedings does not show anything regarding the enrollment, and it was the important matter in the case. I later made out a statement in which I said that it was the only way I could get the matter before the Secretary of the Interior. The Chairman. What action was later taken on the case ? Mr. Franklin. The record has been complete since May 28, 1906, and no action has ever been taken on it since, so far as I know. Senator Brandegee. In what year was that Molsey Butler case decided ? Mr. Franklin. I believe in the summer or fall of 1904. Senator Long. Was there a dissenting opinion in that case of any of the judges. Mr. Franklin. No, sir ; I do not think so. Senator Long. It was a unanimous decision, was it ? Mr. Franklin. I think it was. I am not positive, but I think it was. Mr. Ballinger. Do you remember at what time the Commission commenced to transcribe the records of the parties under the act of 1898? Mr. Franklin. No ; I do not know that I can testify about that. Mr. Ballinger. Do you remember when they commenced to make up the record of citizenship from the records ? Mr. Franklin. They began to prepare the rolls of citizens of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in September, 1902. I was in that work from the start up to the time I resigned. Mr. Ballinger. Was there any notice issued to applicants as to their status prior to that date? Mr. Franklin. I believe that notices were sent out all over the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, notifying applicants of the appoint- ments to be held by the Commission in those nations, and requesting the applicants to appear before the Commission to give their status on September 25, 1902. The Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Mr. Tams Bixbt. May we have the privilege, Mr. Chairman, of cross-examining the gentleman ? The Chairman. Certainly. The Commissioner. I will ask that he be cross-examined by Mr. Qeorge D. Eogers, chief law clerk to the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. Cross-examination, by Mr. George D. Rogers. Mr. EoGERS. I would like to ask you, Mr. Franklin, how long you were engaged in the preparation of decisions in the Choctaw and Chickasaw enrollment cases? Mr. Franklin. From April, 1904, until October, 1905. Mr. Rogers. Were you writing decisions at that time — preparing them? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir; I was writing decisions all the time. Mr. Rogers. You were at that time under the general supervision of Mr. Beall, I believe? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. ,Mr. Rogers. As secretary of the Commission and in charge of Choctaw and Chickasaw enrollment work? 350 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. Feanklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. Did Mr. Beall ever tell you to write a case contrary to the law and the evidence? Mr. Franklin. In this Molsey Butler case, in my opinion, it was contrary to the law and the evidence; yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. That was just your judgment in the matter? Mr. Franklin. That was my judgment; yes, sir. I was there writing decisions for the Commission. I suppose I should have some judgment as to how opinions should be written, or I would not be there. Mr. Rogers. Certainly he did not tell you in so many words to ignore the law and the evidence? Mr. Franklin._I do not know that there was any reference to ignoring the law and the evidence, but he said in so many words, " Deny those niggers, following this opinion." Mr. Rogers. And he cited as his authority for that the opinion of the Choctaw and Chickasaw court in the Molsey Butler case ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. The words, as nearly as I can remember, were : " Deny all those niggers following the Molsey Butler case." Mr. Rogers. Do you not know that the opinions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court were followed in certain cases of enrollment in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations by the Commis- sioner and the Department? Mr. Franklin. I testified a while ago that they were in the case of an intermarried citizen, on the question of marrying out. That citizen was Thornton D. Pierce. Mr. Rogers. I would like to ask you, from your experience as a clerk preparing decisions, what was done with those decisions after they were prepared by you and the other law clerks? Mr. Franklin. They were turned over to Mr. Beall for his 0. K., I understand. Mr. Rogers. What was done then with them? Mr. Franklin. They were then turned over to the chief law clerk by Mr. Beall, and if they suited him they went through. Mr. Rogers. What was done with them after they went to the chief law clerk ? Mr. Franklin. They were then submitted to the Commissioner for his signature, if he O. K.'ed them. Mr. Rogers. They went to the chief law clerk's hands after thpy were in Mr. Beall's hands, and if O. K.'ed by him they went to the Commissioner for his consideration? Mr. Franklin. That is as I understand it ; yes. Mr. Rogers. You stated that in ten or twelve cases in which you were attorney for the applicants you asked Mr. Beall, when he was in charge, for the office records in these cases. Will you enumerate, those cases, giving the names of the cases ? Mr. Franklin. They were the cases of Calista Green Russell, Mary Etta Latta, Martha Cusher, Susie Bell Krebbs, Florence Burriss, Martha Thompson, Sarah T. Burkes, Hezekiah _ Enoch Autrey. Those are all Choctaw cases ; and there was one Chickasaw case, Lucy Bacon. Mr. Rogers. Did you ask for the records in all those cases at one time? Mr. Franklin. I did, sir. i*IVE CIVILiZEi) TEIBES. S51 Mr. Rogers. Can you state when that was ? Mr. Franklin. I have the date on this slip [consulting a paper]. February 28, 1906. Mr. Rogers. Were you representing all those parties as attorney ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. The records of t*e Commission will show that. Mr. Rogers. Did the records of the Commission at that time show that you were the attorney for each of those parties ? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. What records did you ask for in those cases ? Mr. Franklin. I asked to see the records that were on file in the jacket of the case. Mr. Rogers. The complete record in the cases ? Mr. FranklHst. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. Did Mr. Beall give you any reasons for refusing to let you see the records ? Mr. Franklin. As I stated awhile ago, he made some remark about that I could not take up the Commission's time. Mr. Rogers. Have you not been permitted on numerous occasions to examine the records in cases in which you represented the applicants ? Mr. Franklin. I have been, on numerous occasions, yes; but I thought that as attorney for the applicants I had a right to examine the records in any case in which I was attorney. Mr. Rogers. You have been allowed, in many cases? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. Can you account for this refusal of Mr. Beall on this particular day to let you see the records in those cases? Mr. Franklin. No ; I can not. Mr. Rogers. He did not give any special reason? Mr. Franklin. The reason I gave the other day — it would take one of their clerks probably ten or twelve hours to get them out, and he made some excuses that seemed very insufficient to me. Mr. Rogers. Had you been permitted to see those records before ? Mr. Franklin. I believe I had. Mr. Rogers. On the same day ? Mr. Franklin. No, sir. I had not seen the records then, since the date of the hearing, and I wanted to look them over to see if the records were complete — if there was any fact that was material that had not been brought out ; simply a checking up. Mr. Rogers. Had you represented the applicants at the hearing? Mr. Franklin. I had. Mr. Rogers. Had you been furnished with a copy of the testimony taken at that ? Mr. Franklin. I do not believe I had. Mr. Rogers. Is it not customary to furnish a copy of the testimony taken at the Commissioner's office ? Mr. Franklin. They have only furnished them to me in some cases. Mr. Rogers. You have received them on numerous occasions? Mr. Franklin. I have, on making request for them, either in writ- ing or orally. Mr. Rogers. Can you state that you had not received them in these cases ? Mr. Franklin. I could not say that I had received them in all 352 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. cases. I had received them in some cases ; but it did not cover any documentary evidence that might have been on file. Mr. EoGEES. Was there, or could there have been any other docu- mentary evidence on file than that which you introduced at the origi- nal hearing — ^that which was evolved from the testimony of the wit- nesses ? Mr. Franklin. I do not know ; there might have been other evi- dence. The question involved in most of those cases was a question of application, and at the time the hearings were had in some of the cases the Commission did not bring forth what its record showed as to letters or other documentary evidence that might have been on file. Mr. KoGEES. Was not reference made to any such documentary evidence when the attention of the Commission was called to it? Did you attempt to introduce anything in any of those cases which was not placed on record ? Mr. Franklin. I believe that in some cases I called for certain let- ters, and they said that they would be looked up at the proper time before a decision was rendered, and it was not brought forth. Mr. KoGEES. Can you state that that was done, or is that an impres- sion of yours ? Mr. Franklin. I state it absolutely. Mr. KoGEES. That it was done in some of those ten or twelve cases? Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. Are you engaged in practicing in citizenship cases before the Commissioner and the Department ? Mr. Franklin. I am still attempting to practice before the Depart- ment, but since June 26, 1906, I have been suspended by Mr. Bixby because of the fact that I was formerly connected with his office. Mr. EoGERS. That is, under the provision of the Indian Appropria- tion Act ? Mr. Franklin. Yes. Mr. RoGEES. You not having been out of the office two years? Mr. Franklin. That is the provision. Mr. Rogers. Are you interested in any of those transfer cases, the transfer of the names of persons from the f reedmen roll to the Indian roll? Mr- Franklin. Yes, sir ; I have, I believe, two cases of that char- acter before the Commission, that hearings have been had in, or attempts made to have hearings, in which Mr. Apple, my partner, was present. I was not present because they were set at about the time I was suspended. Mr. Rogers. How many people are affected by those cases? Mr. Franklin. Probably about ten. Mr. Rogers. Are those all of the cases of this character in which you are interested ? Mr. Franklin. I have accepted employment in four or five other cases,- but never did file any petition, owing to the fact that the Indian appropriation bill, or the Curtis Act, I would say, and this Five Civ- ilized Tribes bill of the last session made provision that these people could not be transferred unless the records of the Commission showed that applications had been made, and after looking the cases over at the Commission I could find no record of any application other than that which stated on the back of the census cards that the fathers were Indians, and I did not think that under the ruling of the Commission FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 353 that -would be sufficient evidence, and therefore have not filed peti- tions for the remainder of the applicants. Mr. Rogers. Have you got contracts with those people conditioned upon placing them on the roll ? Mr. Franklin. Which ones? Mr. Rogers. These ten which you say you represent ? Mr. Franklin. Yes. Mr. Rogers. Your fee in those cases is conditional upon your hav- ing them enrolled ? Mr. Franklin. Yes. Mr. Rogers. What is the amount that you will get in the event that they are enrolled in each particular case. Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Chairman, I submit that this is immaterial to the matters in issue, was not entered into in the examination-in-chief, and is improper. The Chairman (to Mr. Rogers). "V\Tiat is the purpose of the question ? Mr. Rogers. I want to show that his interest is contingent in the matter. The Chairman. You may ask the question. Mr. Franklin. I could not answer absolutely. I have the con- tracts. I can submit copies of them to the committee if they so desire. Our fees vary from $50 to $1,500. We have some cases in which we charge as much as $1,500 a head. We are offered that by the appli- cants. We do not have to charge it. We are offered frequently as much as $1,500. Senator Teller. It makes no difference whether he gets $5 or $50. The fact that he has an interest in it is admitted. Mr. Rogers. Mr. Ballinger takes the ground in the opening argu- ment that the testimony taken in the field in 1898 from these freed- men applicants was not transcribed for four years. Now, from what you learned from your employment with the Commission, can you verify that statement ? Mr. Franklin. No, sir; I do not know anything about the time that the records were transcribed. Mr. Rogers. Do you not know, on the other hand, that this tes- timony was transcribed soon after it was taken and appears now in these records as transcribed at that time? Mr. Franklin. I know that the testimony is on file in the jackets, but most of it bears no date. The testimony taken in 1898 and 1899 is not dated. I have never seen more than, I should say, 10 transcripts that were dated at all. Mr. Rogers. Are you able to state that this was not transcribed immediately upon the return of the parties from the field in 1898 and 1899 ? Mr. Franklin. I said I did not know when it was transcribed. I did not have the least idea. Mr. Ballinger. I would like to offer, right on this point, an ex- hibit showing these records. Here is one [producing a paper]. There is no date whatever on it. The Chairman [after examining the paper]. This is a copy. I do not see how we can admit this. Mr. Ballinger. It is a copy of the record. 354 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Teller. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ballinger makes a statement. To make that statement of any value before this committee he has got to prove it. I do not see why Mr. Rogers should enter on an exam- ination of this witness on this point. Mr. Rogers. He was an employee of the Commission for three or four years, and I wanted it to appear whether he had any knowledge on the subject. Senator Teller. It is cross-examination, and if Mr. Ballinger fails to prove the p)oint it is waste of our time. Senator Brandegee. You can make him your own witness on that point. Mr. Rogers. I shall not press the point. Mr. Ballinger. Reference has been made to the Molsey Butler case. Do you know whether or not the Department of the Interior criticized that decision very severely in the Jo and Dillerd Perry case? The Chairman. I do not think you need enter on that. You can show it. Please proceed as rapidly as possible with the main or sahent points. Mr. Rogers. On what day in October, 1905, did you sever your con- nection with the Commission? Mr. Franklin. I handed in my resignation to take effect October 1, 1905, but owing to the persuasion of Mr. Beall and Mr. Bixby I worked for two weeks longer to finish up some schedules I was pre- paring, and handed in a new one to take effect October 14, 1905, and that was accepted October 16, 1905. Mr. Rogers. Were you in the office of the Commissioner from the 1st till the 14th of October, 1905, continuously? Mr. Franklin. No, sir. Mr. Rogers. Plow long were you out during those days? Mr. Franklin. I was out several days. Mr. Rogers. I Avould like to ask you if you were not in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations during that time soliciting business in enroll- ment cases which were afterwards brought before the Commissioner? Mr. Franklin. No, sir. Mr. Rogers. Plad you not, previous to October 14, 1905 Mr. Ballinger. I do not think this comes within the scope of crossi- examination. The Chairman. I think we should get through more quickly. Senator Teller. I think we should have some rules. This is con- nected with absolutely nothing that comes before us, and if Mr. Rogers is allowed to go on with it he can use up the whole evening. Mr. Rogers. I think it material on this point. He has testified as to the action of the Commissioner and of certain of his employees, and I think the answers to the questions I have propounded will bear very materially on the point of the animus which Mr. Franklin bears to the Commissioner and his action at the time he was still an employee of the Commission. That is the only object of the question, and I wanted to ask only one or two more questions about it. Mr. Franklin. I should like to make a request. If the gentlemen are going to charge me with something, if they want to question me on these points, I should like to question Mr. Bixby and Mr. Beall Senator Brandegee. The only objection is that it is not cross- examination of any testimony given on the direct. FIVE CIVILIZEiD TKlBBS. 355 Mr. EoGEES. That question will be the last I shall have to ask. Senator Teller. It seems to me to be entirely indifferent which way he answers. I am old-fashioned enough to think that a lawyer ought to follow the rules. The Chairman. If I were sitting as a judge I would make a rul- ing on the question; but my desire is to get through as rapidly as possible, and I have felt that we should not try this case as if we were trying a case in court. I believe the question is a proper one, show- ing the interest of the witness, but I can not see the necessity of it at this time. The witness has testified that he had an interest in the cases. Mr. Ballinger. I Avill now call Mr. Charles Von Weise. Mr. Charles Von Weise came forward and was duly sworn by the Chairman. TESTIMOJSTY OF CHARLES VON WEISE. Direct examination by Mr. Ballinger : Mr. Ballinger. State your residence and occupation. Mr. VoN Weise. My residence is at Ardmore, Ind. T. ; my occu- pation is that of attorney at law. Mr. Ballinger. Were you ever in the employ of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes? If. so, when? Mr. Von Weise. Yes, sir ; I was in the employ of that Commission from, I think, 1900, if I mistake not — either that or 1901 — up to the end of April, 1903, at which time I resigned and went to practicing law in Tishamingo. Mr. Ballinger. What positions did you hold with the Commission? Mr. VoN Weise. I started in as stenographer; was in the Creek department awhile ; then in the Cherokee department ; then I was law clerk in the Mississippi Choctaw department. Mr. Ballinger. Who was directly over you? Mr. VoN Weise. I was under the direct supervision of Mr. William 0. Beall, as chief clerk of the Choctaw and Chickasaw enrollment division. Mr. Ballinger. Did he ever direct you as to how you should pre- pare citizenship decisions? Mr. Von Weise. In these Mississippi Choctaw decisions I got my instructions as to how to prepare those decisions, to deny all persons who had not proved that their ancestors complied with article 14 of the treaty of 1830, and I got those instructions from Mr. Beall. The decisions were prepared along that line. I had nothing whatever to do with the Choctaw and Chicasaw citizenship matters other than the Mississippi Choctaw cases. Mr. Ballinger. State Avhat you know with respect to the suppres- sion of the record of the application for the enrollment of Joe and Dillard Perry. Mr. Von Weise. All that I know in regard to that case is this : I have stated it in an affidavit heretofore, and that affidavit was also, I believe, made an exhibit in the Joe and Dillard Perry case upon appeal. I was in Muskogee trying some other cases. The Chairman. That is, after you left the employ of the Five Civilized Tribes Commission? 356 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Mr. Von Weise. Oh, yes ; it was in this year. I have forgotten the exact date now. And after I had finished with the case that I was on I had a conversation with a clerk of the Commission by the name of D. Conway Lloyd, in which he stated that the Joe and Dillard Perry case could have been won by us if the record had been complete; that there was an application on file in the Commission which had been filed in 1896. The Attorney-General had decided that Joe and Dil- lard Perry were not entitled to enrollment for the reason that they had not made an application according to the record transmitted by the Commission prior to February 25, 1902, the Commission having reported that their first assertion of blood rights was first made in August, 1903. I was not employed by Joe and Dillard Perry at that time, but have at least 100 applications here of a similar nature, and being aware of the fact that there were suppressions of record in these cases I secured employment from Joe and Dillard Perry's mother to prosecute an appeal in that case. On the 6th day of May I wrote to the Commission a letter request- ing a certified copy. I requested to be informed as to the price of a certified copy of the petition in the Joe and Dillard Perry case and such judgment as might have been rendered by the Commission at that time ; because under the law — the Curtis bill, and an amendment to it in the Indian Appropriation bill — I supposed that I would have to pay for a certified copy, and I wanted to ascertain the price, not knowing how long the papers were, and I stated that I wanted to make this motion within the thirty days' time allowed to make ap- peals from the Secretary of the Interior. To this good day I have never received an answer to that letter. I took into that particular case Mr. A. J. Lee, of Ardmore, as asso- ciate counsel. He went to Muskogee and secured a copy of the paper. We then filed a petition, and we received a decision of the Secretary of the Interior on the 28th of September enrolling those people. The Commission, however, in the face of this recommended to the Depart- ment that the motion to reconsider this case be denied for the reason that there was an implied denial; there was no record showing whether that decision in 1896 was acted on or not, but the idea was that there was an implied denial. Mr. Ballingee. It was reversed by the Department? Mr. VoN Weise. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Please be as brief as is consistent with the facts. What did Mr. Conway Lloyd say to you at the time he told you of the existence of this application ? Mr. Von Weise. He said that it was not exactly an oversight ; that it was really a suppression ; that he and another clerk, whom he did not mention, and Mr. Beall were in the room where the records were kept — he did not say where they were — but were together, and that this 1896 record — petition — was there, and that William 0. Beall stated to him that " Now, only the three of us know of the existence of this petition, and if it becomes public one of the three of us will have told it, and I am certainly not the man to tell it, and it will be between you two." There was not one human being that was connected with those cases, of the attorneys who had been employed previous to this, that knew of the existence of this record. The report to the Department FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 357 was that it did not exist, and it was because of the statement made to me by Lloyd that I secured the application at all. The Chairman. Where was this application at the time ? Do you know ? Mr. VoN Weise. Mr. Lee will have to testify as to that, because he got it. He came up and made a personal request. I had waited about two months for an answer to my letter, and then Mr. Lee came on to Muskogee on other matters and secured this petition. Mr. Ballingee. Have you ever been refused by the Commission or by Mr. Beall the privilege of examination of records in cases in which you appeared as attorney ? Mr. VoN Weise. Only this, that they have refused in all instances when I have requested to let me examine the tribal rolls to find out whether the parties through whom my applicants claimed or Avhether the applicants themselves appeared thereon. I had to write the name of the applicant on a slip, and it was handed in to a clerk. Since then I have never made application. I have, however, seen the tribal rolls during the trials. Mr. Ballinger. Were you refused permission to examine the rec- ords of the applications made in 1896 ? Mr. Von Weise. Well, I do not recollect whether I was or not. I do know this, that I have called for records of 1896 that I knew existed, and they have reported that they did not *xist or could not be found. Mr. Ballinger. State to the committee as briefly as you can the conversation you had with Mr. Beall, if you had any, relative to the enrollment of this class of transfer cases at Ardmore more than a year ago. Mr. Von Weise. I think it was along in the fall sometime; I can not recall the date of it, but Mr. Beall was down on Commission business at Ardmore, and the conversation came up as to those freed- men transfer cases, and he remarked to me that there was not any need of my wasting my time and money on those cases. I had then filed quite a number of petitions for transfer. They were going to be denied, he said, if there was any power to do it; that this next session of Congress would have a request made tg it to eliminate that class of people from ever being enrolled on the blood rolls, because, he stated, that they were the descendants of slaves, and the slaves were mere chattels, and he went on giving his reasons. That is the only conversation I ever had with him there, and he has reiterated that, here in Muskogee, in the presence of Mr. Tom Nor- man, attorney of Ardmore. The Chairman. Were you present at that time ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes, sir ; reiterated to me, I mean, in the presence of Mr. Norman, that the decisions of the Attorney-General in those cases, and two or three other cases where the Department has over- ruled the Commission, were absolutely nonsensical ;_ that they were not based upon law or common sense, and especially in these transfer cases; that if there was any power to get around following that, it would be done. Mr. Norman is an attorney, and does not represent any freedmen's cases. Mr. Ballinger. When papers were called for by attorneys while you were an employee of the Commission, did Mr. Beall give them the entire record or did he give them part of the record ? 358 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Von Weise. I do not know what he did while I was with the Commission about giving cases to attorneys, because I had nothing whatever to do with giving out records to attorneys. Applications for records were made in another room from the one I occupied. I do not know what he did. Mr. Ballinger. Have you had any difficulty with the Commission relative to misstatements of fact contained in the records ? Mr. VoN Weise. Yes, sir; I think I have. Mr. Ballinger. Do you know anything about the case of Theoda Sparks? Mr. Von Weise. Yes ; that is not exactly a case of suppression of record, but this applicant was brought to Muskogee from Wynne- wood, Ind. T., and her witnesses from Wynnewood, and one from Ryan, Ind. T., I suppose at an expenditure of $60 or $70. Mr. Ballinger. For what purpose ? Mr. Von Weise. For the purpose of complying with the require- ments of their case by appearing before the Commission on July 24, 1906, at 9 o'clock, at which time they were advised that they could appear there and that the Commission would hear testimony and receive such other evidence as might be submitted in connection with that filed by Theoda Sparks as a citizen of the nation. In that par- ticular case we based our contention on the fact that these people had made documentary evidence of application having been made or some assertion of blood right prior to December 1, 1905. Under this act of April 26, 1906, as the committee know, documentary evidence was required. The field card shows that the father of this woman was a Chickasaw by blood. We had that father there to testify that he wa?. There is no evidence in the freedmen's jacket showing the blood of this father or who the father was, but on the field card does appear the name of this father and the statement that he is a Chickasaw by blood. How that information was derived I can not say, but that field card was made in 1898. We based our contention on the fact that that was documentary evidence to show that this man had made some sort of a claim in 1898 that he was of Indian blood. The Com- mission arbitrarily said that that was not such documentary evidence as they would consider, and they refused to let us introduce any tes- timony whatever. They did not let that question go up to the Department to be construed later, but refused us the right to give any testimony then. The applicant had to go back without offering the testimony. I requested that that testimony be taken at that time, because, I said, we are going to appeal to the Department of the Inte- rior on your construction as to whether that is documentary evidence, and we would like to save these witnesses the $40 to $60; and they refused it. Mr. Ballinger. I regret that these field cards in the cases called for have not been supplied. [To Mr. Von Weise.] In brief, you brought these witnesses to Muskogee at the direction or at the instance of the Commission to be examined on a certain day. Were they examined ? Mr. VoN Weise. No, sir. Mr. Ballinger. What reason did they assign ? Mr. Von Weise. I have given it, that they did not consider the evidence offered documentary evidence, and unless we did show by documentary evidence we could not offer any proof. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 359 Mr. Ballingee. Did the Commission claim that a record was not made in the Boston Colbert case ? Mr. VoN Weisb. Yes. Mr. Ballingee. State the circumstances. Mr. VoN Weise. In the Boston Colbert case — that is, a case in which the applicant claims The Chaieman. Please be as brief as possible. The time is rapidly passing and we want to get over as much of the ground as possible. Mr. Von Weise. Application was filed by me for the record. It is not here. The Chaieman. What case is that ? Mr. Von Weise. The case of Boston Colbert. The 1896 record is not here — the petition filed in 1S96. We have here the registry- receipt, addressed to the Dawes Commission at Vinita and P. S. Moseley as chief of the Chickasaw Nation, wherein they are receipted for by the Dawes Commision September 9, 1896, and by the chief of the Nation at the same time. Mr. Ballingee. Was application made by that man ? Mr. VoN Weise. By that man in 1896 and registered to the Com- mission and a copy to the nation, asking that he be enrolled as a citizen by blood. Mr. Ballingee. Did they deny it ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Ballingee. On what ground ? Mr. Von Weise. They stated that no application was ever made within the time required by law. Mr. Ballingee. But application was made in 1896, you say ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes, sir ; that is what we claim. It was made in 1896, and we have the register's receipt showing receipt of it and can prove by Boston Colbert that he did make application. Mr. Rogers here produced from a package in his possession the document referred to. Mr. Von Weise. This is the first time I have seen it. I have re- quested it three times and here is their statement on the slip that it is not in existence. It seems that we have to have the power of the Senate to secure it. This is the first time that we have received it. Senator Tellee. You say that the Commission denied that that was in existence ? Mr. VoN Weise. They did. I have the slip here where I re- quested it. Mr. Ballingee. Have you the decision of the Commission? Mr. VoN Weise. Yes, sir; I have the decision of the Commission and the correspondence of the Commission with the Department of the Interior. Mr. Ballingee. I will present dozens of these cases in the record. Mr. VoN Weise. The records can be discovered now, it seems. First they are denied and then they are produced. Mr. RoGEES. Is this case to be argued in this way ? The Chaieman. No. Senator Teller. You say that the case was decided because there was no application, and you say that this is the application here now ? Senator Long. An application of the claimant for enrollment? Mr, Ballingee. Yes. 360 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. Well, this does not seem to be that. This seems to be a demurrer by somebody. Mr. Von Weisb. We claim that we made an application. Mr. Rogers. That is the 1896 record. He is talking about an ap- plication he made afterwards. The Chairman. This is the demurrer of the Chickasaw Nation. Senator Teller. Wliat is the date? The CHAiEaiAN. 1896 ; the file mark is on the back. Senator Teller. Well, this proves that it was there, because they asked to have it dismissed. Mr. VoN Weise. This is the first time I have ever had any intima- tion other than that it was not in existence, except that we have the register's receipt and that our applicant would be willing to swear that he did file it. Senator Teller. They claim that he did file it. Senator Long. This is a motion to dismiss it, but it is not the appli- cation. Mr. VoN Weisb. I do not know where the application is. I would like to have that inserted in the record. Senator Brandegee. In the letter from them to the Department do they deny that the application is on file ? Mr Von Weise. They simply say this: This is a copy of letter written by " Larrabee, acting commissioner." From the report of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes it is apparent that these applicants did not apply for enrollment for citizenship in the Chickasaw Nation within the time required by law. The first law requiring application to be made was in 1896. Senator Brandegee. He does not deny that there was an applica- tion paper put in ? Mr. Von Weise. He says it was apparent that the applicants did not apply for enrollment within the time prescribed by law. Senator Brandegee. What is the date of that letter ? Mr. Von Weise. January 20, 1906. Senator Teller. If they furnished it during that year, that would be sufficient time ? Mr. VoN Weise. Certainly. The Chairman. It was in 1896, January, that the demurrer was filed. Mr. Ballinger. Prior to what date could an applicant make an application ? Senator Brandegee. And have it within the time? Mr. VoN Weisb. The act of 1896 provides the time. It must have been made, though, within ninety days. Senator Long. From the date of that act ? Mr. Von Weise. I do not recall e&actly whether from the date of that act or a certain time after the act. Mr. Ballinger. Does he not refer to September, 1902 ? Mr. VoN Weise. That is a denial of my motion to transfer this enrollment. The Chairman. When would it hav.e been in time ? Mr. Von Weise. Any time prior to December 1, 1905, by the last act of Congress — the act of this year. Senator Teller. What is the date of your cards ? FiVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 361 Mr. Von Weise. Our cards are September 9. They were mailed September 4 and received at Vinita September 9. The Chairman. In what year ? Mr. Von Weise. 1896. Senator Long. The application does not seem to be in this jacket. Mr. Rogers. It is only within the past few months that the Depart- ment has held that an application under the act of 1896 is a continu- ing application for the enrollment of the parties under the subsequent act of Congress. The original act of 1896 was for the admission of persons to citizenship in the Five Civilized Tribes. The act of 1898 was for the enrollment of persons, as also was the act of July 1, 1902. The Department has recently — that is, within the past year — held that under certain conditions an application made in 1896 is a con- tinuing application and that it must be considered as an application for enrollment. Since that time the Commissioner has held that uniformly in the cases which have come before him for decision. Mr. Ballinger. When was the decision of the Department? Mr. Rogers. We have numerous cases of that kind within the past year. Mr. Ballinger. Since when has the Commission held that to be the case? Mr. Rogers. In numerous cases. We have held it in this Boston Colbert case. Mr. Ballinger. Since what date ? Mr. Rogers. I will find you that letter in a minute. Mr. Ballinger. If it is important I would like to know the date. I would like to state with reference to those applications filed in 1896 that while the Commissioner held that his action upon them was final the Department held otherwise. Mr. Rogers. That is exactly what I stated that they had held. ' Senator Long. In this Colbert case under consideration, has an application been made since the act of April 26, 1906, for transfer under section 4? Mr. VoN Weise. No, sir; not since, but prior to that time it had been made. Senator Long. You have not raised the question under section i of that act. Mr. VoN Weise. Section 4 of that act would deny us if we had no documentary evidence of an application. Senator Long. That is the point I want to know, whether there is sufficient evidence here. The question is raised whether there is doc- umentary evidence here. In other words, this is a demurrer. The application is missing, but the demurrer here shows that an applica- tion was filed. Mr. VoN Weise. Yes. ' Senator Long. Has the question been raised before the Commission as to whether that is documentary evidence under section 4, that such an application was filed? Mr. Von Weise. Not in this particular case, but in the case of Theoda Sparks documentary evidence was put in by us, and in the face of that we were denied the right to take the testimony. Senator Long. I would like to know what documentary evidence is. When we passed that act of Congress we discussed a good deal what documentary evidence was. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 24 362 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBB^. Mr. Von Weisb. That qaestion has been decided in none of my cases except by the decision in the Theoda Sparks case, where they held that their own field card, where the name of the woman was marked as a Chickasaw Indian, was such evidence as they would not hold her to be an Indian on, under the act of 1906. The Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes (Mr. Tarns Bixby). For the purpose of perhaps clearing the atmosphere with regard to the question of documentary evidence in these matters I would like to state to the Committee that the Commissioner has been as liberal as it would be possible, I think, for anyone to be with regard to what documentary evidence is. We have accepted the applicant's letter or statement of any kind or a letter even from a friend as being documentary evidence sufficient to entitle it to be con- sidered, ever since the passage of this law. Senator Long. Where the application is missing, but a demurrer is filed referring specifically to the application, have you passed on such a case? Commissioner Bixby. I do not remember any such case, but I would consider the demurrer sufficient evidence. Senator Long. Would you consider it sufficient to show that docu- mentary evidence existed? Commissioner Bixbt. Certainly. Mr. Melven Cornish. I am one of the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, and that is the reason why I ask to be heard on one matter that has been suggested. By reason of the interest which we have in this matter as attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, I wish to say a word in the hope that I may be able to make clear the situation from the stand- point of the Nations and the Commission. Eeference has been made to the Joe and Dillard Perry case and to the Boston Colbert case. The inference is drawn — not only is the inference drawn, but the statement is made — that there existed applications under the law of 1896, and that these applications, while in existence throughout all these years, have not been brought to light until very recently for the purpose of entering into the case to the extent of being considered applications within the later law. The first law with reference to citizenship matters was passed in 1896. That was the first enactment which the Congress of the United States ever passed with reference to citizenship in the Five Civilized Tribes looking to the assumption of that jurisdiction by the Govern- ment of the United States. These two papers referred to, the demur- rer which refers to an original which is lost, the papers filed in that case and the Boston Colbert case, were filed under that law of 1896. Now, the cases which arose under that law and the later law had abso- lutely no connection; there is no connection whatever between the jurisdiction which the Commission possessed under the law of 1896 and the later law. The jurisdiction which it possessed in 1896 is that which passed to the United States courts and subsequently to the citi- zenship court. Mr. Ballinger. Only to a limited extent? Mr. Cornish. To an absolutely unlimited extent. . , Senator Long. What have you to say to the point made, that it is a continuous application? Mr. Cornish. Every application and scrap of paper filed under the law of 1896 passed through the jurisdiction thus conferred by that FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 363 act to the United States courts for the central and southern districts of the Indian Territory, and thence farther on. That jurisdiction has never been revised. Then tlie jurisdiction expired absolutely so far as the Commission was concerned. Later, in 1898, the Com- mission was given an entirely new jurisdiction to enroll persons — to take the tribal rolls and make a roll under the jurisdiction of the laws of the United States. As to the Perry people and the Colbert people (I have eliminated everything that occurred under the law of 1896, because there is no parallel between the jurisdictions and the laws), they worked under the law of 1898, and it became apparent to the Government of the United States and to the Choctaws and Chickasaws that an end must be put to the jurisdiction of the Commission conferred by the law of 1898, not to that conferred by the law of 1906. But it operated through 1899, 1900, and 1901, and it became apparent that an end must be put to that jurisdiction. So the law of 1902 was passed pro- viding in terms that all applications must be filed within three months, must be in the hands of the Commission by the 25th day of December, 1902. That is the period which the Government and the tribes put to the time within which application should be made. That period was fixed by stating that all persons claiming to be Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians must have their applications in by December 25, 1902. These people concede that they enrolled as freedmen. They con- ceived the idea in 1903 or 1904 that they might be Chickasaw Indians instead of freedmen. Now, the question arose whether they had filed application under the law of 1902. It became apparent that no application had ever been made to the Commission under the law of 1898 or 1902. No application had been made and their application was denied. The Commission therefore had no power to go into the merits of their cases. The committee will bear in mind the difference I have pointed out between the different jurisdictions of those acts. It had never been suggested by anyone until the past year that the old papers which had been filed before 1896 before another Commission might be con- strued to be an application. Senator Long. What does the Department hold on that point ? Mr. CoBNiSH. That it was a continuing application. Now that explains why it was. The idea never was conceived until the last year that these old papers could be an application within the meaning of the late law. The Chaikman. When was it held by the Department that this was a continuing application ? Mr. Cornish. Within the last year. The Commission held other- wise, but the Department overruled the Commission and said that they might get out an old paper filed ten years ago and give it juris- diction under the laws of 1898 and 1902. Senator Long. I had something to do with the passage of section 4. I did not know what it meant when we passed it and I do not know that I know now. (Laughter.) Do you consider that this Colbert case, where the application is missing — was that an application to be enrolled as a f reedman or as a citizen by blood ? Mr. CoENiSH. You understand that this was years before I came into these matters, and I can not tell. 364 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. From reading this demurrer I think the conclusion could be drawn that this was an application for citizenship. Would you consider that paper, in the absence of the original, sufficient documentary evidence under section 4 to justify the Commissioner to make the transfer ? Mr. CoENisH. As to the first proposition I am fair enough to say that I would be willing to concede, as a matter of fact, that there is in existence or ought to be in existence an original. That there is, to wit, a paper filed in 1896, which is an application for citizenship. But I would not hold and I would not agree, if that original existed and was before us, that it is an application or could be considered an application before the Commission under subsequent law — subsequent ' to that of 1896. Senator Long. You would consider, though, that it was docu- mentary evidence? Mr. Cornish. Not documentary evidence unless the Department so held. Mr. Ballingee. Has not the Department so held ? Mr. Cornish. That I do not know. Senator Long. In other words, to give them jurisdiction under sec- tion 4? Mr. Cornish. No, sir ; as a lawyer I would say no. Senator Long. Then, how much would there be in the case to make it sufficient? Mr. Cornish. There should be an application. Senator Long. But the application is missing. Senator Brandegee. If the application were sufficient, when in existence ? Mr. Cornish. Oh, yes. For the purpose of this discussion I am conceding that the original is in existence. The demurrer shows that the original was in existence. Senator Teller. You mean that they should file a new application! Mr. Cornish. Under the laws of 1898 and 1902. Senator Long. But I understand that the Department held that it was a continuing application ? Mr. Cornish. But I think that was bad law. Senator Long. You and the Department do not agree on that. Mr. Cornish. No, sir. The jurisdiction was entirely different and was given for an entirely different purpose and an entirely different end, and therefore there is no connection between the jurisdiction given under the two acts. Mr. Ballingee. The Commission was directed to prepare these rolls. Senator Long. I do not wish to prolong a discussion of the case. Mr. Cornish. What I said was in order to clear the minds of the committee as to why the papers were not brought forward until last year. Senator Teller. I would suggest that this case be not argued here. The Chairman. I fully agree with the Senator. Go on with your testimony, Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Rogers. May I say a word about the Boston Colbert case? Senator Long. If it is a fact. "We want all the facts. Mr. Rogers. About two months ago the Commissioner made a full report to the Department, setting forth what was done in 1896. That FIVE CIVTLIZBD TRIBES. 365 matter is pending before the Department, so that whatever virtue that paper has is now being considered. Senator Teller. Did the Commission treat this as if the document was there? Mr. Rogers. The Commissioner has considered the applications made in 1896 as continuing applications ever since the Department so held. Senator Teller. But there is no application here. Mr. Rogers. We have documents in the office showing that they were filed, and we considered them as filed. Senator Long. And that the case is pending in the Department ? Mr. Rogers. Yes. Mr. Ballinger (to Mr. Von Weise) . Are you an attorney in that case ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Have you been notified of that action of the Com- mission ? Mr. Von Weise. No, sir ; I have not. I know of no other action of the Commission than the refusal of the Department on January 25, 1906, and I filed a supplemental motion asking that it be reconsidered and have never received any acknowledgment or return in regard to that. I have never been informed of the existence of this until this evening. I have never received any communication from the Com- mission, They knew that I was the attorney because I am noted there as attorney of record and have made requests three times that I know of. Mr. Ballinger. That case has been decided by the Commission, has it? Mr. Von Weise. It was decided by the Commission, transmitted to the Department, and refused January 25, 1906. Mr. Ballinger. That is, your application for transfer was denied ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Rogers. I will state that this report that was made was a vol- untary report made by the Commissioner, and we stand ready to present that report. The Chairman. You can do it in due time. Proceed, Mr. Bal- linger. Mr. Ballinger. Do you recollect the George Crawford case ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Were there any misstatements of fact by the Com- missioner in his decision in that case ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. If so, what? The Chairman. We do not care for any long dissertation. Senator Long. Stick to facts. The Chairman. If there was any misstatement, state what it was. Mr. Von Weise. In that case I relied on two proofs of death made by George Crawford as to the death of his Choctaw wife and Choctaw son, wherein he swore that he was a Choctaw by marriage and the husband of this Choctaw wife and the father of this Choctaw boy. The Commission denied that application on the ground that these two documents that were filed were not sufficient documentary evi- dence to be considered as an application in the face of the decision of the Department holding that a burial certificate wherein a mother 366 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. swore that she was the mother of a Choctaw child and made no state- ment in that as to her own citizenship was a sufficient application for her enrollment. And in rendering that decision they absolutely misquote the affidavits. They say : It is not claimed that any formal application has ever been made for the enrollment of the applicant as a citizen by intermarriage into the Choctaw Nation, but it is contended that the adavit of the applicant, filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes on August 22, 1902, in the matter of the death of John Henry Crawford, wherein the applicant stated that he was " the father of John Henry Crawford, who was a citizen by blood of the Choc- taw Nation," should be considered as sufficient application for his enrollment. That is all they say on that. They absolutely ignore the sworn statement that he was a citizen by marriage. They mention another affidavit of Thomas J. Morris, which is immaterial. They say: With the exception of the records above referred to, this office is not in pos- session of any record filed prior to December 1, 1905, having reference to the applicant, George Crawford. Mr. Ballinger. Is that all in reference to that case ? Mr. VoN Weise. Yes. We relied on those affidavits. Senator Teller. What became of that case ? Mr. Von Weise. It is now before the Department on appeal. Mr. Ballingee. Denied by the Commission ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Their denial is : I am of the opinion that the evidence fails to establish that application was made for the enrollment of George Crawford as a citizen by intermarriage Of the Choctaw Nation within the time limited by the provisions of the act of Congress approved April 26, 1906 (Public 129), and that no authority exists for the receipt of any application for his eni-oUment as a citizen by intermar- riage of the Choctaw Nation at this time, and I therefore decline to receive the same. The Chairman. Is your contention that that was a corrupt denial or a mistaken construction of the law ? Mr. VoN Weise. I am constrained to believe that it was certainly a — well, I do not know whether it was a corrupt denial or not, but it looks very corrupt to me — ^not corrupt, I do not mean; but taking either horn of the dilemma it is certainly damnable. If it is a care- less oversight, then it is just as bad for that applicant. I do not care whether you say it is corrupt or not. Mr. Ballinger. Are you attorney in the case of Minerva F. Swadley ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Did the Commission make a false report to the Secretary relative to that case ? Mr. VoN Weise. No, sir. Not to the Secretary, but Mr. Ballinger. To you? Mr. Von Weise. To me. They made it to me. I wrote to them and asked whether Minerva F. Swadley appeared on the tribal rolls of 1898 as a Chickasaw, and also requested that my name be entered of record as the attorney in the case, and they answered me that the name did appear of record — that is, of tribal enrollment, but it did not appear from their records that any application had ever been made by or for Minerva Swadley or her family to the Commission for enrollment. Mr. Ballinger. Had an application been made? Mr. VoN Weise. I got a certified copy of the application from the United States court at South McAlester, which showed that it was FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 50V made in 1896, that this applicant was admitted. That decision was rendered December 7, 1896. Mr. Ballinger. The Commission held that no application had been made ? Mr. Von Weise. They informed me that the records of the Com- mission did not show that an application had ever been made by or for this woman, and the correspondence with the Commission is now on file in the Department. The Chairman. Do you know as a matter of fact what the records did show ? Mr. VoN Weise. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Did you examine the records? Mr. Von Weise. Yes ; and have a certified copy of the record. Mr. Rogers. Did not that say by or for " enrollment " of this woman ? Mr. Von Weise. That is what I stated. I asked to be entered as attorney of record in the case, for the reason that I desired to enter a motion. The original certified copy is on file with the Department. Senator Teller. Have you a copy of it ? Mr. VoN Weise. I have a single copy of it. Mr. Ballinger. Is it on file with the Commission or with the Department ? Mr. VoN Weise. With the Department. Mr. Ballinger. There may be some exception taken to the admis- sion of this. If so, we will let it go out. I am going to offer a copy of the record of the court in that case. Mr. Rogers. No objection whatsoever. The document was put in evidence and is as follows: APPLICATION FOR CITIZENSHIP. Indian Territory, Atoha County: Before me, the undersigned, a notary public, this day personally appeared Minerva Swadley, who, after being duly sworn, states as follows: I am 42 years of age and a citizen of the Choctaw Nation by blood. I am a daughter of William Hunter and Martha Hunter, both citizens of the Choctaw Nation by blood. I was bom in the Indian Territory and have lived here nearly all my life. I married my present husband, W. T. Swadley, in November, 1871. I am enrolled on the rolls of the Choctaw Nation as a citizen. I was entered as a Choctaw in the last rolls; also when the lease district land money was paid in 1894. "When I went to draw my money in Atoka I was told I could not draw it, for I was not a citizen and was shown the roll books. My name was there, and under it was written "No citizen, not entitled to draw." I have traced the matter up and find that the party who entered the protest against me was William Harrison, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation by blood, and with whom my husband had trouble with a short time before this. William Harrison was an influential man here at that time. For further proof that I am a Choctaw, I beg to refer to the certified copies of affidavits of Vina Franklin and Bob Rbberts, Indian name being Ikebuska. I am duly recognized as a Choctaw citizen, and my rights have never been disputed only by the said William Harrison. I further beg that my children be also registered. Their names are as follows: J. W. Swadley, 23 years old, single. A. Rose Swadley, now Fulson. Witness my hand this 5th day of September, 1896. her Minerva ( X ) Swadley. mark. Witness: Victor Bey. Jos. A. Bogy. Sworn and subscribed before me this 5th of September, 1896. H. T. V. Pehby. 368 I'lVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Bob Roberts, a citizen of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, and of lawful age, testified as follows in reference to the citizenship of Mrs. Minerva Swadley, n6e Miss Minerva Hunter: I am 93 years old; I have known her people from way back yonder. She ia a daughter of William Hunter, who was in all Choctaw. His father was a full- blood Choctaw named Hunter in English. Mrs. Swadlei^'s father was an uncle to young Thomas Hunter, who lives near Caddo. I have known this woman all her life and know her to be a Choctaw. his Bob (X) Roberts. mark. Sworn to and subscribed before me this the 30th day of August, 1893. B. S. Smisee, County Clerh, Atoka County. Entered and recorded in my office this the 30th day of August, 1893. B. S. Smisee, County Clerh, Atoha County. I, Sam Downing, county clerk of Atoka County, do hereby certify that the above ia a true and correct copy as recorded in the clerk's office of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Book 1, page 534. Sam Downing, County Clerh, Atoka County. Choctaw Nation, Atoha County: Mrs. Levina Franklin, a citizen of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, and of lawful age, testifies as follows in reference to the citizenship of Mrs. Minerva Swadley, n6e Miss Minerva Hunter; I have known Mrs. Swadley ever since she was a child. Her father's name was William Hunter, who was a half Choctaw and who lived near Caddo, and was an uncle of young Thomas Hunter, now living near Caddo. His mother waa also part Choctaw. The family has always been recognized as Choctaws and have many full-blood relatives. her Mrs. Mbva (X) Franklin. mark. Subscribed and sworn before me on this the 30th day of August, 1893. B. S. Smisee, County and Probate Clerk, Atoha County. Entered and recorded in my office this the 30th day of August, 1893. B. S. Smisee, County Clerh. I, Sam Downing, county clerk of Atoka County, do hereby certify that the above is a true and correct copy as recorded in the clerk's office of Atoka County, Choctaw Nation, Book 1, page 535. Sam Downing, Atoha County Olerh. In matter of petition and memorial of Minerva Swadley as a citizen by blood of the Choctaw Nation. Indian Territory, Atoka County: Before me, the undersigned, a notary public, this day personally appeared Silas Law- rence, who, after being duly sworn, states as follows: I am 56 years of age and a citizen of the Choctaw Nation by blood and duly regis- tered and enrolled as such. My post-office address is Coalgate, Ind. T. I am per- sonally acquainted with the applicant, Minerva Swadley, nee Hunter. Have known her about thirty years. I was well acquainted with her father, William Hunter, and Martha Hunter, her mother, both citizens of the Choctaw Nation by blood. Tne Hunters were called Huntubby by the Indians and called Hunter by the missionaries. J. R. Plummer, one of the board who registered the applicant as a Choctaw, told me William Harrison had entered a protest against her drawing the leased district FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 369 land money in 1894, owing to some trouble said applicant's husband had had with said William Harrison. Witness my hand this 5th day of September, 1896. his SiLi.s (x) Lawrence. mark. Witnesses: Victor Bey, Jos. A. Bogy. Sworn and subscribed before me the 5th day of September, 1896. H. T. V. Perry, Notary Public. My commission expires March 2, 1899. [Commissioners: Hem'y L. Dawes, Frank C. Armstrong, Archibald S. McKennon, Thomas B. Cabinis, Alexander B. Montgomery. H.M. Jacoway, Secretary.] Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Fort Smith, Ark., December 5, 1896. 1080. Minerva Swadley et al., v. Choctaw Nation. Filed September 7, 1896. Answer filed. Minerva Swadley, an intermarried citizen, and J. W. Swadley and A. Boss Fulsom, citizens by blood, admitted. H. T. V. Perry, Coalgate. I, H. M. Jacoway, jr., secretary, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of Choctaw record C, page 380, of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. Given under my hand and official signature this 13th day of February, 1897. Henry Stump, Acting Secretary. In the United States Court for the Central District of the Indian Territory, at South McAlester. PETITION FOR APPEAL. Minerva Swadley, plaintiff, v. The Choctaw Nation, defendant. The Choctaw Nation, your petitioner, represents that heretofore, to wit, on the day of , Minerva Swadley presented her claim to the Dawes Commission to be admitted as a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and thereafter on the day of De- cember, 1896, said Dawes Commission, by its order, admitted said Minerva Swadley to citizenship in the Choctaw Nation. That said Minerva Swadley based her claim to citizenship upon the fact that she was descended from William Hunter and Martha Hunter, and alleged that said William and Martha Hunter were citizens of the Choctaw Nation by blood. But your petitioner would show that it is not true that said William and Martha Hunter were citizens of the Choctaw Nation, and alleges that they had no Choctaw blood. That the Dawes Commission erred in holding that this plaintiff was of Choctaw blood and entitled to citizenship. Wherefore, your petitioner makes this its appeal and prays that the order of the Dawes Commission admitting said Minerva Swadley to citizenship be set aside, and that he may be declared by this court to be a noncitizen of the Choctaw Nation. Wm. M. Cravens, Stuart, Gordon & Hailey, Attorneys for the Choctaw Nation. Indian Territory, Central District: I, E. J. Fannin, clerk of the United States Court for the Central District, do hereby certify that the foregoing are true and correct copies of certain papers on file in the case of Minerva Swadley v. The Choctaw Nation, in citizenship case No. 228. Witness mv hand this 12th day of April, 1906. E. J. Fannin, Clerk United States Court. By J. B. Rose, Deputy. 370 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Cominissloiiers, Henry L. Dawes, Frank C. Armstrong, Archibald S. McKennon, Thomas B. Cabinnls, Alexander B. Montgomery; HT M. Jacoway, secretary. Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Fort Smith, Ark., December Jf., 1896. 819. W. T. Swadley v. Choctaw Nation. Filed September 7, 1896. Answer filed. Applicant admitted a citizen by intermarriage. I, H. M. Jacoway, jr., secretary, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of Choctaw Record C, page 337, of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. Given under my hand and official signature this the 13th day of February, 1897. H. M. Jacoway, Jr., Secretary. By Henry Stump. Indorsed on back: "No. 235 Filed— Feby. 27, 1897— P. B. Stoner, clerk." Indian Territory, Southern District: I, Charles Von Weise, upon my oath state that the foregoing is a true and correct copy of a document now on file in the ofSce of the clerk of the court for the United States court in the central district, Indian Territory, in citizenship case No. 235, the same having been copied and compared by me. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 31st of May, 1906. . Notary Public. Cross-examination by Mr. Rogers : Mr. Rogers. As to this Crawford case, George Crawford, in •which you say the Commissioner made an adverse decision, did not that affi- davit upon which you rested that case accompany the record to Washington? Mr. von Weise. I do not know what you sent to Washington. Mr. Rogers. Do you not know as matter of fact or were you not present when this testimony was taken ? Mr. Von Weise. I was present when no testimony was taken at all, because Mr. Beall decided he would not hear any testimony on that. Mr. Rogers. Was not that affidavit made a part of the record in that case ? Mr. Von Weise. Why, certainly. I introduced it, but Mr. Beall refused absolutely to let me introduce any testimony, because, he said, "this is not such evidence as we will consider an application." Mr. Rogers. My question was whether or not the affidavit itself did not accompany the record to Washington? Mr. Von Weise. I do not know; you may have sent it. Mr. Rogers. It was introduced, was it not, by you? Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Rogers. You rested your case on the question of death? Mr. Von Weise. No, we did not. , . , Mr. Rogers. That was a portion of your case and your principal contention. That affidavit accompanied the record to Washington, FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 371 Mr. Von Weise. I suppose it did. It should have accompanied it. All I had to go by was the decision that I got. Mr. RoGEKS. In this Minerva Swadley case, I would like to ask you just what you were told by the Commissioner in regard to an applica- tion for enrollment. Mr. Von Weise. I was not told anything. I was written to by the Commission in answer to my letter, and the letter I received from the Commission I attached as an exhibit to a letter to the Secretary of the Interior, wherein I set out that we desired to make an application, and I attached that as an exhibit to show that the Commission had stated that there was no record showing that they had ever appeared before the Commission for enrollment. Mr. Rogers. This Minerva Swadley case was also an application for a transfer. Mr. Von Weise. No, sir; but for the enrollment of herself and of her children and of the intermarriage of her husband. The Chairman. There were two or three cases in the documentary evidence that came up marked on the outside that they were not available this evening, but would be produced in the morning. One was Minerva Swadley, and the other Anna Magie. Mr. Rogers. You are familiar, Mr. Von Weise, with the procedure had in cases for enrollment before the Commissioner and the Depart- ment, are you not? Mr. Von Weise. I am familiar with the part of the procedure that I had any direct connection with. I ana not familiar with any other. Mr. Rogers. Do you not know that in cases that are continued by the Commissioner the record goes to the Department from the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, whether or not the parties appeal the case ? Mr. Von Weise. Yes, it is supposed that all the records go there. Senator Long. Are all the papers in the case sent up ? Mr. Rogers. Yes, that is the procedure. The record is made up complete and sent to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, who reports on it, then it goes to the Department, and the Department fiually passes on it in all cases, whether an appeal be taken by the individ- uals or not. Mr. Von Weise. It is supposed that all of them go there. Mr. Rogers. You are interested in a number of cases for the transfer of cases from the freedmen's roll to the roll of citizens? Mr. Von Weise. Yes, quite a number. Mr. Rogers. You represent a number of persons as attorney?. Mr. Von Weise. Yes. Mr. Rogers. About how many would you say you represent? Mr Von Weise. Well, I could not say. I did not figure it. I suppose I filed one hundred and twenty-five or one hundred and fifty applications, and represent about fifty more. That is given just roughly. Mr. Rogers. About how many persons ? Mr. Von Weise. I suppose I represent about four hundred per- sons. That is about what I represent. I am not giving that as ab- solute, but it is close to that. _ Senator Long. (To Mr. Rogers.) Has the Secretary of the Inte- rior passed on any cases appealed under section 4, in which he con- strued that expression as to what is documentary evidence ? Mr. Rogers. No, sir. 372 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. None of those cases have been reached. Mr. EoGERS. In one case, the Katie Wilson case. There is no claim made in that case that under the law of 1896 Senator Long. Have you got the opinion of the Secretary? Mr. Rogers. We have not got it here to-night, but I have the opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General. Senator Long. I would like to see it. Mr. Ballinger. In reference to the transmission of the records in these cases, here is the uniform note sent out by the Commission, and, so far as I have been able to ascertain, it is all: The petition of has this day been transmitted to the Secretary for review — the petition only. TESTIMONY OF ME.. ALBERT J. LEE. Direct examination by Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Ballinger. Please state your residence and occupation? Mr. Lee. I reside at Ardmore, Ind. T. By occupation I am an attorney. Mr. Ballinger. Did you secure a copy of the apphcation made in the case of Joe and Dillard Perry ? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballinger. If so, state the circumstances. Mr. Lee. I appeared at the office of the Commission in Muskogee and stated that Iwas attorney employed in that case and asked to see the record of the case. After some consultation as to whether or not I would be allowed to see the record, it was finally produced. They brought to me a jacket similar to that [exhibiting] except that there was no writing whatever upon the jacket. This is not the jacketof the Perry case, but the jacket was similar to that. There was nothing whatever on it except a number on the corner. On opening the jacket I found the original application filed by Joe and Dillard Perry's mother in 1896, which I copied. The copy I took out and had a ste- nographer transcribe. The Chairman. Was that an application for citizenship ? Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; and I found no other record which showed that any entry had ever been made on that application. No docket record had ever been presented to me that it had ever been received. Senator Teller. Was it filed ? Mr. Lee. There was nothing to show that it had been filed. On the application itself there was a stamp "Received by Jacoby," secretary to the Commission in 1896. Mr. Ballinger. Have you ever had any difiiculty in getting access to the records or copies of the records in those cases ? Mr. Lee. Yes; Ihave had considerable difficulty. Mr. Ballinger. If so, state the circumstances. Mr. Lee. When I first became employed by a number of people seeking to be transferred I made a list of the cases and went to Musko- gee to inspect the records, in order that I might see whether there was anything in the cases or not and how to prepare the cases. I pr^' sented that list to the commissioner. I believe I presented it to Mr. Beall first, and he said they could not furnish me those cases to look them over nnrl nn mv nrnt.psf, hp. t.nnlr fViA ma.ti.p.r nn -wnth Mr. BlXbyt FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 373 who called in Mr. Rogers, and they consulted whether they would let me see the records. I stated that I was duly employed, and they put me off until afternoon. In the afternoon I came back, and they stated that they had decided that they could not let me see those records; that I had asked for a list of cases, and that if they let me see those, some other attorney might come up with a list of fifty cases; that they could not permit that ; that they could not permit attorneys to see the cases. I thereupon told Mr. Bixby that I should appeal from his decision in the matter, and in his presence I asked for a telegraph blank. He pro- tested against a telegram, saying that I could not make it plain in a telegram. I told him that I would make it plain to his satisfaction and did so, telling the Secretary of the Interior that Mr. Bixby had refused me permission to see the records in those cases and please to advise the commissioner by wire in the matter. Mr. Ballingek. Is this a copy of the telegram you sent the Secre- tary ? [Handing paper to witness.] Mr. Lee. This is the carbon copy made in the office. Mr. Ballinger. I should like to have that go into the record. The telegram is as follows : Muskogee, Ind. T., November 9, 1905. The Secretahy of the Interior, Washington, D. C: Commisioner Bixby refuses inspection of enrollment records in cases of Albert Thompson, Emily Franklin, and a number of other cases, all Chickasaw freedmen, by whom I am employed as attorney, on ground that cases are closed and parties enrolled as freedmen. Advise commissioner by wire. Albert J. Lee. Mr. Ballinger. Is this the answer you received from the Secre- tary? [Handing another paper to witness]. Mr. Lee. This is the answer that I received from the Secretary. The Chairman. Have you any objection, Mr. Rogers, to this going into the record ? Mr. Rogers. No objection. The letter is as follows : Department oe the Interior, Washington, November 10, 1905. Mr. Albert J. Lee, Muskogee, Ind. T. Sir: The Department is in receipt of your telegram dated November 9, 1905, com- plaining that the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes refuses to allow you to ■ inspect the records relative to the enrollment of certain parties as Chickasaw freedmen. You are advised that the Commissioner has been requested to make immediate report concerning the statement made by you. Respectfully, Thos. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary. Mr. Lee. That reply from the Department simply says that they have asked for a report. Subsequently a report was made by the Commissioner recommending that I should not be allowed to see the record, and the Department adhered to the request of the Commis- sioner declining to let me see the records. The reply of the Department was put in evidence. It is as follows: Department oe the Interior, Washington, November 24, 1905. Mr. Albert J. Lee, Mushogee, Ind. T. Sir: In further reply to your telegram of November 9, 1905, concerning the refusal of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes to allow inspection of the enrollment 374 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. records in a number of Chickasaw freedmen cases, in -wMcli you claim to represent such freedmen, you are advised that on November 15, 1905, the Commissioner reported in the matter. It appears from your letter to the Commissioner of November 10, 1905, that your request was made for the reason that each of the parties you represent claim to be entitled to enrollment as Chickasaws by blood and state that they were enrolled as freedmen, notwithstanding the fact that they applied to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enrollment as citizens by blood. These parties further state that they reluctantly accepted their allotments as freedmen , but that they insist now as they did at their first appearance before the Commission that they should be on the roll by blood, and in order to prepare a petition to the Secretary of the Interior in an intelligent manner properly setting out a statement of facts it is necessary that an inspection of the enrollment records above mentioned be had. The Commissioner states that the persons in whose cases you desire to examine the records have all been enrolled as freedmen and that they have voluntarily selected their allotments as freedmen and that certificates of allotments as such have been delivered to them; that in none of the cases referred to by you does he find that any assertion has ever been made by the applicants to any rights that they might have a? citizens of either the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations; that therefore he did not consider that he was authorized to accede to your request. He states, however, that if in the final disposition by the Department of the applica- tion of Joe and Dillard Perry to be transferred from the roll of Chickasaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation any rights are granted persons of this class petitions by others could then be considered; that if your clients should eventually come within any ruling of the Department you could then file petitions on behalf of or present your clients in person for the purpose of examination under oath. Your attention is called to the opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General of Novem- ber 11, 1905, in the case of Joe and Dillard Perry approved by the Department, a copy of which was furnished the Commissioner November 18, 1905. In view of that opinion, it would appear probable that your clients have no rights to enrollment as citizens by blood. Besides, the Department sees no reason why you should not be able to prepare any petition you may desire to present, in accordance with the Commissioner's suggestions, from the statements made to you by your clients. The action of the Commissioner is therefore sustained. Respectfully, Thos. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary. Mr. Lee. I then filed a statement showing my interest and asking the Department to review the decision of the Commissioner, and it was referred to the Attorney-General as to whether, under the facts stated, I was entitled to see the records in these cases as attorney. Thereupon the Department rescinded its decision adhering to Mr. Bixby's decision, and notified Mr. Bixby that the records in his charge in all citizenship cases were considered to be open in all proper cases to attorneys. Since that time I have had to use that decision repeatedly in order to get opportunity to see the records. Senator Long. But you have succeeded since then in seeing the records ? Mr. Lee. Oh, yes ; but I have had to use the decision. Mr. Ballinger. Have you made application to the Commission for certified copies of records, and have you inclosed money orders, and been denied? Mr. Lee. I have. Mr. Ballinger. If so, state when. Mr. Lee. In the transfer case of Dick Stevenson and others. I asked for a certified copy of that portion of the Chickasaw annuity roll of 1878 showing the enrollment of James Colbert. Mr. Ballinger. Is this the Commissioner's letter? Mr. Lee. That is the Commissioner's letter. I requested that under the act relating to money orders. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 375 The letter was put in evidence, and is as follows : Department or the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., June S5, 1906, Albert J. Lee, Ardmore, Ind. T. Dear Sir: Receipt is hereby acknowledged of your letter of June 20, 1906, inclosing post-office money order in the sum of fifty cents which you state is in payement for a certified copy of that portion of the 1878 Chickasaw annuity roll as to James Colbert and family. In reply you are informed that this office does ilot deem it advisable to undertake to furnish certified copies of the roll referred to by you, and your money order is respect- fully returned. Respectfully, . Tams Bixby^ Commissioner. Mr. Ballinger. Did yea receive a communication from the Assist- ant Secretary, Jesse E. Wilson, in reference to this matter ? Mr. Lee. Yes; I appealed from the decision refusing to give me the copy of the annuity roll. Mr. Ballinger. Is this a copy ? Mr. Lee. No; that is the original. Mr. Ballinger. I want that in the record. Mr. Lee. A report has never been made to my knowledge. The letter is as follows : Department of the Interior, Washington, July 14, 1906. Mr. Albert J. Lee, Ardmore, Ind. T. Sir: You are advised that your communication of the 9th inst. inclosing a copy of a letter from the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes denying your request for a certified copy of that portion of the 1878 Choctaw annuity roll as to James Colbert and family has been referred to said Commissioner for report. Upon receipt thereof you will be further advised in the premises. Respectfully, Jesse E. Wilson, Assistant Secretary. Mr. Ballinger. Did you receive a communication from the Secre- tary in which you were informed that you could have access to the records? Mr. Lee. Yes; in regard to the first time that I asked for it and took it up with the Secretary; that is the letter in which the Secretary directed that the records be farnished. Mr. Ballinger. I desire that to go into the record. The Chairman. Pass it to Mr. Rogers, and see if he has any objec- tion. Mr. Ballinger. Is that a letter which you received from the Secre- -tary with reference to this matter? Mr. Lee. That is the letter of notification to me that the Commis- sioner had been so notified. Mr. Ballinger. I desire this to go into the record, if there be no objection. No objection being offered, the letter was pat in evidence. It is as follows: Department of the Interior, Washington, December 20, 1906. Albert J. Lee, Ardmore, Ind. T. Sir: In reply to your letter of December 14, 1905, relative to the refusal of the Com- missioner to the Five Civilized Tribes to grant your request to be allowed to inspect the record of certain Chickasaw freedman citizenship cases and in which you state 376 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. that the Department has sustained the action of the Commissioner you are advised that the Department merely informed you in its letter of November 24, 1905, that it did not appear, in view of the opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General approved by the Department, that your clients had any rights as citizens by blood and fliat it saw no reason why you should not be able to prepare any petition you desired, in accord- ance with the Commissioner's suggestions, from the statements made to you by your clients. However, you are informed that the Commissioner has been instructed in the matter by letter of even date. For further information you are referred to him. Respectfully, Thos. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary. The following was also put in evidence: ■Decembee 20, 1905. Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Indian Territory. Sik: Calling attention to your letter of November 15, 1905, reporting relative to tele- gram from Albert J. Lee, complaining of your refusal to allow him, as attorney, to inspect the enrollment records of your office in certain Chickasaw freedmen cases, and to Departmental letter of November 24, 1905, inclosing to you a letter to Mr. Lee, in which he was advised, in view of the opinion of the Assistant Attorney General, approved, in the case of Joe and Dillard Perry, that apparently his clients have no rights to enrollment as citizens by blood, you are informed that the Department is in receipt of a letter from Mr. Lee, in which he asserts, contrary to your understanding, that certain persons he represents did claim their rights to be enrolled as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation, when before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enrollment, which resulted in their enrollment as freedmen, and that how much of that assertion is of record and how much of it was not made of record can only be determined by an inspection of your records. He, therefore, insists upon his right to have access to such files, etc. The Department considers the record of your office in any enrollment case open to inspection, under proper regulations, by parties in interest, or their duly authorized attorneys or agents. You are, therefore, directed to advise Mr. Lee, at Ardmore, Ind. T., if duly admitted to practice before you, and if otherwise qualified, that the records in question are open to his inspection under the usual regulations. Respectfully, Thomas Ryan, First Assistant Secretary. (Through the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.) The following documents relating to the case of Dick Stevenson et als. were put in evidence by Mr. Ballinger: Postal registry return receipt for letter mailed by the Comirissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, addressed to Albert J. Lee, receipt being signed June 20, 1906. Postal registry return receipt for letter mailed by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, addressed to Dick Stevenson, receipt being signed June 23, 1906. llCopy.D Muskogee, Ind. T., June 15, 1906. Albert J. Lee, Attorney at Law, Ardmore, Ind. T. Dear Sir: I inclose herewith copy of the order of the Commissioner to the Five Civil- ized Tribes of June 15, 1906, denying the petition submitted by you for the transfer of the names of Dick Stevenson et al., from the roll of Chickasaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation. The original petition, with the order of the Commissioner, has this day been trans- mitted to the Secretary of the Interior for review. Respectfully, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, 377 ICopy.] MtrsKOQBE, Ind. T., June 16, 1906. Dick Stevenson, Hennepin, Ind. T. Dear Sir: I inclose herewith copy of an order of the Commissioner to the Five Civil- ized Tribes of June 15, 1906, denying the petition submitted by Albert J. Lee, as your attorney, for the transfer of the name of yourself and others from the roll of Chickasaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation. The petition, with the order of the Commissioner, has this day been transmitted to the Secretary of the Interior for review. Respectfully, Tams Bixby, ComrMsdoner. Muskogee, Ind. T., June 15, 1906. Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, Attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, South McAlester, Ind. T. Gentlemen: I enclose herewith copy of an order of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes of June 15, 1906, denying the petition submitted by Albert J. Lee, attorney-at-law, Ardmore, Ind. T., for the transfer of the names of Dick Stevenson et al., from the roll of Chickasaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chick- asaw Nation. The original petition and the order of the Commissioner have this day been trans- mitted to the Secretary of the Interior for review. Respectfully, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., June IS, 1906. The Secretary of the Interior. Sir: I have the honor to transmit herewith a petition filed with this office February 12, 1906, by Albert J. Lee, of Ardmore, Ind. T., as attorney for the petitioners, pray- ing for the transfer of the names of Dick Stevenson, Joe Stevenson, Dave Stevenson, Myra Stevenson, Robert Stevenson, Alfred Stevenson, Brown Stevenson, Channie Stevenson, Annie Stevenson, B. B. Ada Stevenson, Lucy Williams, Richard Williams, Francis Williams, Chubb Williams, Mattie Williams, Timothy Williams, Johnnie Williams, Serina Stevenson, Manley Stevenson, Johanna Williams, Delia May Williams, Edward Stevenson, Cornelis Stevenson, Viola Stevenson, Elizabeth Lanie, Dewey Lanie, Robert Lanie, Peter Stevenson, J. C. Stevenson, Angeline Stevenson, Monroe Stevenson, Gaddis Stevenson, Amos Stevenson, Nancy Tyner, Ally Tyner, Riley Stevenson, Elijah Stevenson, Cora Stevenson, Henderson Stevenson, Jackson Steven- son, Amanda James, Gertie Knowles, Laura Richardson, Amanda Richardson, Robert Richardson, Mera Richardson, Sylvia Alexander, Flora James, Lanie CoUey, Oliver Colley, Maudie Colley, Mary Colley, Winchester Colbert, Leford Colbert, Thomas Colbert, Clodia Colbert, Mary Kendricks, Nelson Stevenson, Cornelius Stevenson, Lucy Stevenson, Matildy Johnson, Ellis Stevenson, Edward Stevenson, Fleet Steven- son, Sam Stevenson, Ellen Williams, Mattie Williams, Irine Williams, Pearlina Franklin, Helen Franklin, Alice Hamilton, Gurda Newberry, Dave Stevenson, Lydia Franklin, Solomon Franklin, Willington Williams, Henrietta Williams, Calls Sherley, Bell Sherley, Albert Sherley, Victor Sherley, George Hamilton, Stand Watty Ste- venson, Hattie Stevenson, Esther Lee Stevenson, Mary Stevenson, Lillia Eight, Earnest Eight, Celis Walters, Bertha Walters, Lila Franklin, Ed Franklin, Arthur Franklin, Rupert Stevenson, Abraham Stevenson, Banks Stevenson, May Williams, Benjamine Williams, Katie Williams, Albert Williams, Carrie Williams, Rutha Wil- liams, Eulson Williams, Sical Williams, Thomas Stevenson, Anna Stevenson, Dud Stevenson, Henry Stevenson, Houston Stevenson, Carrie Butler, Moseley Butler, Moseley Plummor, Lischice Munds, Annie Munds, Levy Stevenson, Benjamine Ste- venson, Bell Williams, Wade Williams, Mary Williams, Henrietta Williams, Laura Colbert, Andrew Colbert, Beulah Colbert, Battle Colbert, Sarah Colbert, Lester Col- bert, and Lorado Abrahams from the roll of Chickasaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation, with the order of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes of June 15, 1906, denying said petition. Respectfully, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Through the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 25 378 PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Department of the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. In the matter of the petition/or the enrollment of Dick Stevenson, et al., as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation. On February 12, 1906, there was filed with the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes by Albert J. Lee, attorney for the petitioners, a petition praying for the trans- fer of the names of the following persons from the roll of Chickasaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation: Dick Stevenson, Joe Stevenson, Dave Stevenson, Myra Stevenson, Robert Stevenson, Alefred Stevenson, Brown Stevenson, Channie Stevenson, Annie Stevenson, B. B. Ada Stevenson, Lucy Wil- liams, Bichard Williams, Francis Williams, Chubb Williams, Mattie Williams, Timo- thy Williams, Johnnie Williams, Serina Stevenson, Manley Stevenson, Johanna Williams, Delia May Williams, Edward Stevenson, Cornelis Stevenson, Viola Stevenson, Elizabeth Lanie, Dewey Lanie, Robert Lanie, Peter Stevenson, J. C. Stevenson, Angeline Stevenson, Monroe Stevenson, Gaddis Stevenson, Amos Steven- son, Nancy Tyner, Ally Tyner, Riley Stevenson, Elijah Stevenson, Cora Stevenson (wife of Elijah Stevenson), Henderson Stevenson, Jackson Stevenson, Amanda James, Gertie Knowles, Laura Richardson, Amanda Richardson, Robert Richardson, Mera Richardson, Sylvia Alexander, Flora James, Lanie CoUey, Oliver CoUey, Maudie Col- ley, Mary Colley, Winchester Colbert, Leford Colbert, Thomas Colbert, Clodia Colbert, Mary Kendricks, Nelson Stevenson, Cornelius Stevenson, Lucy Stevenson, Matildy Johnson, Ellis Stevenson, Edward Stevenson, Fleet Stevenson, Sam Stevenson, Ellen Williams, Mattie Williams, Irine Williams, Pearlina Franklin, Helen Franklin, Alice Hamilton, Gurda Newberry, Dave Stevenson, Lydia Franklin, Solomon Franklin, Wil- lington Williams, Henrietta Williams, Calis Sherley, Bell Sherley, Albert Sherley, Vic- tor Sherley, George Hamilton, Stand Watty Stevenson, Hattie Stevenson, Esther Lee, Stevenson, Mary Stevenson, Lillia Eight, Ernest Eight, Cells Walters, Bertha Walters, Lila Franklin, Ed Franklin, Arthur Franklin, Rupert Stevenson, Abraham Stevenson, Banks Stevenson, May Williams,Benjamine Williams, Katie Williams, Albert Williams, Carrie Williams, Rutha Williams, Eulson Williams, Sical Williams, Thomas Stevenson, Anna Stevenson, Dud Stevenson, Henry Stevenson, Houston Stevenson, Carrie Butler, Moseley Butler, Mosely Plummer, Lischice Munds, Annie Munds, Levy Stevenson, Benjamine Stevenson, Bell Williams, Wade Williams, Mary Williams, Henrietta Wil- liams, Laura Colbert, Andrew Colbert, Beulah Colbert, Battle Colbert, Sarah Colbert, Lester Colbert, and Lorado Abrahams. The petition alleges that the principal petitioners, Dick Stevenson, Joe Stevenson, Dave Stevenson, and Myra Stevenson, are the children of Lanie Stevenson, a recognized Chickasaw citizen of one-half Chickasaw blood, who was the daughter of James Colbert, a recognized Chickasaw citizen, that all of the other petitioners are grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the said Lanie Stevenson, and are each and all enrolled as freed- men of the Chickasaw Nation; that petitioners were before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Pauls Valley, Indian Territory, and made application for enrollment as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation; that prior to said appearance to the said Commission they made written application to the Commission when sitting at Vinita, which applications, to the best of the knowledge of the petitioners, have never been acted upon by the said Commission. No answer to the petition has been filed by the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickar saw nations within the fifteen days allowed for that purpose by the regulations adopted by the Commissioner January 2, 1906. The following petitioners have been enrolled as Chickasaw freedmen, and their names appear on the final roll of Chickasaw freedmen, approved by the Secretary of the Interior, as follows: Dick Stevenson, opposite No. 1750. Alefred Stevenson (as Alfred Stevenson), opposite No. 1748. Brown Stevenson, opposite No. 1745. Channie Stevenson (as Chaney Stevenson), opposite No. 1747. Annie Stevenson, opposite No. 1749. B. B. Ada Stevenson (as Bebee Ada Stevenson), opposite No. 4322. Lucy Williams, opposite No. 1504. Richard Williams, opposite No. 1507. Francis Williams (as Frances Williams), opposite No. 1508. Chubb Williams (as Cub Williams), opposite No. 1509. Mattie Williams, opposite No. 1510. Timothy Williams (as Timisy Williams), opposite No. 1511. .TobnTile Willifl.ma f'a.q .Tnbnv W^ll^Il.TnR^ nnnnsitp Nn 1.^1.^ FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 379 Serina Stevenson (as Serena Stevenson), opposite No. 1807. Manley Stevenson (as Manuel Stevenson), opposite No. 1808. Johanna Williams (as Joanna Stevenson), opposite No. 1743. Delia May Williams, opposite No. 4321. Edward Stevenson, opposite No. 1752. Elizabeth Lamey, opposite No. 1753. Dewey Lamey, opposite No. 1754. Robert Lamey, opposite No. 4323. Peter Stevenson, opposite No. 1365. J. C. Stevenson (as Jay C. Stevenson), opposite No. 1368. Angeline Stevenson, opposite No. 1367. Monroe Stevenson, opposite No. 1805. Amos Stevenson, opposite No. 1779. Nancy Tyner, opposite No. 1782. Ally Tyner (as Alva Tyner), opposite No. 1783. EUey Stevenson, opposite No. 1780. Elijah Stevenson, opposite No 1778. Jackson Stevenson, opposite No. 1781. Laura Richardson, opposite No. 1773. Amanda Richardson, opposite No. 1774. Robert Richardson, opposite No. 1775. Mera Richardson (as Eknira Richardson), opposite No. 1776. Lanie CoUey (as Laney Colly), opposite No. 1756. Robert Stevenson, opposite No. 1742. Leford Colbert, opposite No. 4328. Thomas Colbert, opposite No. 4329. Clodia Colbert (as Claudie Colbert), opposite No. 4330. Fleet Stevenson (as Fleetwood Stevenson), opposite No. 1770. Sam Stevenson, opposite No. 1769. Ellen Williams, opposite No. 1785. Mattie Williams, opposite No. 1789. Irine Williams (as Irene Williams), opposite No. 1790. Pearlina Franklin (as Palina Franklin), opposite No. 1787. Alice Hamilton, opposite No. 782. Gurda Newberry (as Gertie Newberry), opposite No. 783. Dave Stevenson (as Dave Stephenson), opposite No. 784. Lydia Franklin (as Liddy Franklin), opposite No. 789. Solomon Franklin, opposite No. 790. Henrietta Williams, opposite No. 1788. Bell Sherley (as Belle Shirley), opposite No. 1795. Albert Sherley (as Albert Shirley), opposite No. 1796. Victor Sherley (as Vick Shirley), opposite No. 1798. George Hamilton, opposite No. 1792. Hattie Stevenson, opposite No. 1800. May WOliams (as Mary Williams), opposite No. 701. Benjamine Williams (as Benj. Williams), opposite No. 702. Katie Williams, opposite No. 703. Albert Williams, opposite No. 704. Carrie Williams, opposite No. 705. Rutha Williams (as Ruthie Williams), opposite No. 706. Eulson Williams (as Ulcum Williams) , opposite No. 707 . Sical Williams (as Silas Williams), opposite No. 708. Thomas Stevenson, opposite No. 1720. Anna Stevenson (as Amy Stevenson), opposite No. 1722. Dud Stevenson, opposite No. 1723. Henry Stevenson, opposite No. 1725. Houston Stevenson, opposite No. 1726. Carrie Butler, opposite Ne. 1716. Moseley Butler (as Maulsy Butler), opposite No. 1719. Levy Stevenson (as Leavy Stevenson), opposite No. 1715. Benjamine Stevenson (as Benjiman Stevenson), opposite No. 1713. Lorado Abraham (as Lovard Abraham), opposite No. 1941. The following petitioners have been enrolled as Choctaw freedmen and their names appear on the roll of Choctaw freedmen approved by the Secretary of the Interior, as follows: Joe Stevenson, opposite No. 2485. Dave Stevenson, opposite No. 2484. 380 I'lVE OrVTLIZED TRIBES. Cora Stevenson, opposite No. 2514. Cornelius Stevenson, opposite No. 2527. Henderson Stevenson, opposite No. 2522. Amanda James, opposite No. 2466. Sylvia Alexander (as Silvia Alexander), opposite No. 2469. Flora James (as Florry James), opposite No. 2468. Oliver Colley (as Oliver Colly), opposite No. 2505. Maudie Colley (asMaudie Colly), opposite No. 2506. Mary Colley (as Mary Colly), opposite No. 2507. Winchester Colbert, opposite No. 2496. Mary Kendricks (as Mary Kendrick), opposite No. 2497. Lucy Stevenson, opposite No. 2503. Matildy Johnson (as Matilda Johnson), opposite No. 2495. Helen Franklin, opposite No. 3024. Stand Watty Stevenson (as Standwatie Stevenson) , opposite No. 2511. ' Lillia Eight_(as Lillie Eights), opposite No. 2445. Ernest Eigh't (as Earnest Eights), opposite No. 2446. Cells Walters (as Celia Walters), opposite No. 2441. Bertha Walters (as Bertha Oliver), opposite No. 2443. Lila Franklin, opposite No. 2532. Arthur Franklin, opposite No. 2534. Ed Franklin (as Eddie Franklin), opposite No. 3025. Abraham Stevenson, opposite No. 2444. Banks Stevenson (as Bankston Stevenson), opposite No. 2501. Bell Williams (as Belle Williams), opposite No. 2449. Wade Williams, opposite No. 2450. Mary Williams, opposite No. 2451. Henrietta WUliams, opposite No. 2452. Laura Colbert, opposite No. 3778. Andrew Colbert, opposite No. 3779. Beulah Colbert, opposite No. 3780. Battle Colbert (as Bady Colbert), opposite No. 3781. Sarah Colbert, opposite No. 3782. Nelson Stevenson, opposite No. 2488. Ellis Stevenson, opposite No. 2487. This office has no record of any application ever having been made for the enrollment of the petitioners Lester Colbert, Cornells Stevenson, Mosley Plummer, Lischice Munds, Annie Munds, Myra Stevenson, Viola Stevenson, Gaddis Stevenson, Gertie Knowles,Calis Sherley, Esther Lee Stevenson, Mary Stevenson, and Rupert Stevenson as Choctaw or Chickasaw f reedmen or as citizens by blood of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations prior to the filing of the petition herein. Two persons by the name of Edward Stevenson are mentioned in the petition. The records of this office show, however, that application was made for the enrollment of but one of said persons as a Chickasaw freedman. It does not appear that any application was ever made for the enrollment of the peti- tioner, Wellington Williams, as a Chickasaw freedman. It appears from the records of this office that on September 9, 1896, original applica' tion was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes under the provisions of the Act of Congress approved June 10, 1896 (29 Stats., 321), for the enrollment of Ben- jamine Stevenson (as Benjiman Stepheson), Levy Stevenson (as Leavy Stepheson), Carrie Butler (as Carrie Stepheson) as citizens of the Chicaksaw Nation, and that on November 10, 1896, the Commission rejected their application and that no appeal was taken from the decision of the Commission. It further appears from the records of this office that on September 9, 1896, original application was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes in the case of Eamie Colbert et al., v. Chickasaw Nation for the enrollment of the following peti- tioners as citizens of the Chickasaw Nation: Laura Richardson, Am'anda Richardson, Robert Richardson, Fleet Stevenson (as Fleetwood Stephenson), Sam Stevenson, Ellen Williams, Mattie Williams, Irene Williams, Palina Franklin (as Palina Williams), Alice Hamilton, Liddy Franklin (as Lydia Hamilton), Wellington Williams, Dave Stevenson (as David Stephenson), and Mary Kendrick, and that on November 2J, 1896, the Commission rendered a decision rejecting their application, from whicn decision no appeal was taken. , On September 9, 1896, there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes under the provisions of the act of Congress approved June 10, 1896 (29 Stats., 321), original application in the case of Thomas Stephenson, et al., v. Chickasaw Nation for t.Vlp PTirnllmpnl-. nf thci notitinnprn Thrtmaa .Clf oirono/^n I r»o TVii^TTlQfl StfinheilBOIl) ^^^ FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, 381 Amy Stevenson (as Ama Steptenson) as citizens of the Chickasaw Nation, and that on November 23, 1896, the Commission rendered a decision rejecting their application, from which decision no appeal was taken. Application was made Dy George Hamilton to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of himself as a Chickasaw freedman. Application was made by Ellen WUliams to the Commis- sion to the Five Civilized Tribes at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 15, 1898, for the enrollment, among others, of herself, Polina Williams (now Franklin), Henrietta Williams, Mattie Williams, and Irene Williams as Chickasaw freedmen. On the same date application was made by Amy Sherley to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of herself. Belle Sherley, and Albert Sherley as Chickasaw freedmen. Subseciuent thereto there was filed with the Commission a birth affidavit showing the birth of Victor Sherley on March 27, 1902. On September 16, 1898, Althea Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., for the enrollment of herself, Hattie Stevenson, and Ethel Stevenson as Chickasaw freedmen. On the same date Sophronia Hodges made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of Monroe Stevenson as a Chickasaw freedman. On September 19, 1898, at Ardmore, Ind. T., Richard Abram made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment, among others, of Lovard Abraham as a Chickasaw freedman. On September 18, 1898, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., Manuel Williams made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of himself, Lucy Williams, Amy Williams, Richard Williams, Frances Williams, Cub Williams, Mattie Williams, and Timisy Williams as Chickasaw freedmen. Subsequent thereto there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes a birth affidavit showing the birth of Johny Williams on June 22, 1902. On September 16, 1898, at Pauls Val- ley, Ind. T., Josie Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of herself, Serena Stevenson, and Manuel Stevenson as Chickasaw freedmen. On September 16, 1898, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., Robert Ste- venson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enroll- ment of himself, Joanna Stevenson, Angeline Stevenson, Brown Stevenson, Chaney Stevenson, Alfred Stevenson, and Annie Stevenson as Chickasaw freedmen. Subse- quent thereto birth affidavits were filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of Bebee Ada Stevenson on January 16, 1901, and Delia May Williams on August 24, 1902. Dick Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of himself, Hannah Stevenson, Edward Stevenson, and Lizzie Stevenson (now Lamey) as Chickasaw freedmen. Subsequent thereto birth affidavits were filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of Dewey Lamey on November 6, 1899, and of Robert Lamey on July 19, 1902. Elmira Bruner made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., for the enrollment of herself and Lany Colly as Chickasaw freedmen. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes by Thomas Stevenson at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 15, 1898, for the enroll- ment of himself, Alice Stevenson, Amy Stevenson, and Dud Stevenson as Chickasaw freedmen. Subsequent thereto birth affidavits were filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of Henry Stevenson on February 17, 1899, and of Houston Stevenson on February 1, 1901. On September 15, 1898, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., Georgia Ann Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of herself, Benjamin Stevenson, Levy Stevenson, Carrie Stevenson (now Butler), Malsy Stevenson, and Ida Stevenson. Subsequent thereto there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes ahirth affidavit showing the birth of Maulsy Butler on January 18, 1901. Application was made by Peter Stevenson at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 13, 1898, for the enrollment of himself, Lizzie Stevenson, and Angeline Stevenson as Chickasaw freedmen. Subsequent thereto there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civ- ilized tribes a birth affidavit showing the birth of Jay C. Stevenson on December 22, 1900. On September 12, 1898, Liddy Franklin made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of herself as a Chickasaw freedman. On May 29, 1900, an affidavit was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of Solomon Franklin on July 14, 1899. On April 12, 1902, there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes a birth affidavit showing the birth of Dave Stevenson on September 7, 1901. _ On September 12, 1899, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., Josephus Williams made applica- tion to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of Mary Wil- liams, Benjamin Williams, Katie Williams, Albert Williams, Carrie Williams, and Ruthie Williams as Chickasaw freedmen. Subsequent thereto birth affidavits were 382 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. filed with, the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of TJlcum Williams on February 10, 1900, and Silas Williams on December 2, 1901. Applica- tion was made by Viney Stevenson at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment, among others of Flora Stevenson, Samuel Stevenson, and Fleetwood Stevenson as Chickasaw fre'ed- men. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes by Laura Richardson, on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of herself, Amanda Richardson Robert Richardson, and Elmira Richardson as Chickasaw freedmen. Application was made by Elijah Stevenson to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Paula Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of Amos Stevenson, Riley Stevenson, and Jackson Stevenson as Chickasaw freedmen. On September 16, 1898 Nancy Tyner made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of herself and Alva Tyner as Chickasaw freedmen. On September 16 1898, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., Laura Colbert made application to the CommissioEto the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of herself and Leford Colbert as Chicka-* saw freedmen. Subsequent thereto birth affidavits were filed with the Comniission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of Thomas Colbert on December 25, 1900, and of Claudie Colbert on May 3, 1902. Application was made at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 12, 1898, for the enrollment, among others, of Alice Hamilton and Gertie Newberry as Chickasaw freedmen. Joe Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1899, for the enrollment of himself as a Choctaw freedman. Dave Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enroll- ment of himself as a Choctaw freedman. Ellis Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of himself and Nelson Stevenson as Choctaw freedmen. Standwatie Stevenson made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the em-ollment of himself as a Choctaw freedman. Oliver Colly made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the emoll- ment of himself and Maudie Colly as Choctaw freedmen. Subsequent thereto there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes an affidavit showing the birth of Mary Colly on January 11, 1901. Application was made by Billie Stevenson to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on Septem- ber 16, 1898, for the enrollment, among others, of Bankston Stevenson as a Chickasaw freedman. Subsequent thereto birth afiidavits were filed with the Commission show- ing the birth of Lucy Stevenson on February 12, 1901, and of Robert Stevenson on September 18, 1902. Application was made by Mary Kendrick to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of herself, among others, as a Choctaw freedman. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes by Win- chester Colbert, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of himself as a Choctaw freedman. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes by Ed Franklin, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment, among others, of Lila Franklin as a Choctaw freedman. Subsequent thereto there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes an afladavit showing the birth of Arthur Franklin on June 9, 1901. On September 16, 1898, at Pauls Vallej^, Ind. T., Calvin James made application to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the em:ollment, among others, of Amanda James and Flora James as Choctaw freedmen. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes by Belle Williams, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of herself and Wade Williams as Choctaw freedmen. Sub- sequent thereto birth affidavits were filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tnbes showing the birth of Mary Williams on January 2, 1900, and Henrietta Wil- liams on July 7, 1902. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes by Celia Oliver, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., for the enrollment, amom others, o! Lillie Stevenson (now Eights) and Abraham Stevenson as Choctaw freedmen. On October 28, 1902, there was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tnbes an affidavit showing the birth of Earnest Eights on September 1, 1902. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ina. T., on September 12, 1898, by Sanders Franklin, for the enrollment of Helen wan™ and Eddie Franklin as Choctaw freedmen. Application was made by Robert Colbert, at Ardmore, Ind. T., on September 20, 1898, for the enrollment of Laura Colbert, Andrew Colbert, Beulah Colbert, and Bady Colbert as Chickasaw freedmen, wmcn resulted in their enrollment as Choctaw freedmen. A birth affidavit was ^^^jr the CommisBion to the Five Civilized Tribes on November 8, 1902, showing the bm FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. dUS of Sarah Colbert on Marcli 25, 1901. On October 27, 1902, an affidavit was filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes showing the birth of Cornelius Steven- son on February 28, 1902. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, by Robert Farris, for the enrollment of Cora Fams (now Stevenson) as a Choctaw freedman. Subse- quent thereto a birth affidavit was filed with the Commission showing the birth of Henderson Stevenson on October 29, 1900. Application was made to the Commis- sion to the Five Civilized Tribes by Calvin James, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on Sep- tember 16, 1898, for the enrollment of Silvia Alexander as a Choctaw freedman. Appli- cation was made by Matilda Johnson, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 16, 1898, for the enrollment of herself as a Choctaw freedman. Application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Pauls Valley, Ind. T., on September 12, 1898, for the enrollment of Celia Oliver (now Walters) and Bertha Oliver as Choctaw freedmen. It does not appear from the records of this office that at the time application was made for the enrollment of the petitioners above mentioned as Choctaw and Chicka- saw {reedmen or at any time subsequent thereto and prior to December 25, 1902, was any application ever made for the enrollment of any of the petitioners as citizens by blood of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations. It is not alleged in the petition, neither does it appear from the tribal records of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in the possession of this office, that any of the peti- tioners or Lanie Stevenson, the alleged mother of the principal petitioners, was ever recognized by the tribal authorities of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations as citizens by blood of the said tribes, nor have they ever been admitted to citizenship by any duly constituted court or citizenship committee of either of said nations or the Com- mission to the Five Civilized Tribes, or the United State sCourt, under the provisions of the act of Congress approved June 10, 1896 (29 Stats., 321), or the Choctaw and Chickasaw, citizenship court. The name of one James Colbert appears on the 1878 Chickasaw annuity roll — seven in family. The allegation in the petition that James Colbert, the alleged grandfather of the principal petitioners, was a recognized Chickasaw citizen and the fact that the name of one James Colbert appears on the 1878 Chickasaw annuity roll is considered irmna- terial, inasmuch as it is shown from the records of this office that the principal peti- tioners, Dick Stevenson and Joe Stevenson, were bom about the year 1829, that the principal petitioner, Dave Stevenson, was bom about the year 1857, and that none of said petitioners or Lanie Stevenson, the mother of the principal petitioners, have ever been recognized or enrolled as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation by any duly constituted authority. ORDER. I am of the opinion that the petition fails to state facts sufficient to warrant a hearing upon the alleged rights of the petitioners to enrollment as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation; that the absence of any tribal recognition whatsoever of any of the petitioners or Lanie Stevenson, the mother of the principal petitioners, as citi- zens by blood is conclusive under the act of Congress approved May 31, 1900 (31 Stats., 221), as to my jurisdiction to now receive or consider any application for the enrollment of any of the petitioners as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation; that the petition should be denied, and it is so ordered. Tams Bixby, Commisdoner to the Five Civilized Tribes. Muskogee, Ind. T., June 15, 1906. Cross-examination by Mr. Rogeks : Mr. Rogers. I believe you have stated that you are a practicing lawyer ? Mr. Lee. Yes. Mr. RoGEKS. Located at Ardmore? Mr. Lee. Yes. Mr. Rogers. You have considerable practice before the ofl&ces of the Commissioner and the Department ? Mr. Lee. I have some. Mr. Rogers. Have you any cases involving the matter of the transfer of persons from the freedmen' s roll to the roll of citizens by blood? 384 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES, Mr. Lee. Practically all the cases I have pending before the Department are those cases. Mr. EoGERS. About how many cases of that character would you say you have? Mr. Lee. I do not remember about the exact number, but it is 121 or 122 cases; somewhere in that neighborhood. Mr. Rogers. About how many applicants will it cover in all? Mr. Lee. Those cases cover applicants numbering up to 900, and probably a few more. I did run them up one day, and I believe now that the number was 923, though I will not state that as an accurate fact. I will say iu the neighborhood of 900. Mr. EoGERS. At the time you say you appeared at the office of the Commissioner and made application to look at the records in a number of cases how many cases do you suppose you had on that day, doyou remember? Mr. Lee. Yes ; I had quite a number. I had, I think, about a dozen or maybe more. Mr. Rogers. Were there not a good many more than a dozen? Mr. Lee. I do not remember exactly the number. Mr. Rogers. Were not those people enrolled as freedmen of either the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations, their names appearing on the final approved roll ? Mr. Lee. That is a fact. They appeared on the records as having been enrolled. Mr. Rogers. I mean at that time you believed that they were en- rolled as Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen? Mr. Lee. That statement had been made to me by the applicants themselves. Mr. Rogers. As matter of fact what you were attempting to efiect was the transfer from the roll of freedmen to that of citizenship by blood at the time? Mr. Lee. No, I was trying to instigate the record of their examina- tion and enrollment by the Commission as freedmen. Mr. Rogers. You were attempting to see whether they had any rights as citizens by blood ? Mr. Lee. What the record showed their statements to be at the time they made their applications as freedmen. Mr. Rogers. You do not know whether as matter of fact they had made any application as citizens by blood or attempted to make it? Mr. Lee. I had the statement of the applicant that he had made the application, but I did not know how much of an application he had made and could not know until I had examined the record, and it was for that reason that I asked for the record. Mr. Ballinger. I would like to ask the witness a few more questions (To the witness.) Are you attorney in the case of Mary Butler et al? Mr. Lee. I am. Mr. Ballinger. Has that case been decided by the Commissioner to the Five Civihzed Tribes? Mr. Lee. It has. Mr. Ballinger. What was his decision? Mr. Lee. His decision held that no application had ever been made or no documentary evidence had ever been introduced to show that an application had been made for their enrollment as citizens and that FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 385 the facts that I had set up in the petition were not sufficient to grant a hearing. Mr. Ballinger. This is the decision [exhibiting]? Mr. Lee. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. I desire to read it. Mr. Ballinger read as follows : It does not appear from the record herein or from the records of this office that at the time application was made for the enrollment of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, and Lemon Butler as Choctaw freedmen or at any time prior to January 15, 1906, date of filing of petition, was any application ever made for the enrollment of any of the petitioners as citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. Mr. Ballinger. Is that a correct copy of the letter that you found in the files in that case ? [Exhibitiag.] Mr. Lee. It is a letter which I copied from the files and swore to the correctness of. Mr. Ballinger. I desire to read this (reading) : Department of the Interiok, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Miiskogee, Ind. T., March 16, 1901. Prince Butler, Grant, Ind. T. Dear Sir: Receipt is hereby acknowledged of the application for enrollment as a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of George Butler, the infant son of Prince and Mary Butler, bom April 3, 1900. The application is again returned for the reason as stated in the Commission's letter of the 23d of February. The mother of the child appears upon our records as listed or enrollment as a Chickasaw freedman. There is inclosed you herewith a new blank application, which you will have made out in conformity with the corrections made in lead pencil upon the application returned you herewith. Upon the return of the new application in proper form for the enrollment of the child as a freedman the matter will be given further consideration. ~^ Acting Chairman. Mr. Ballinger. That was not an application. I desire, Senators, that the letter of the Commission, the decision m that case, the sworn affidavit of Mr. Lee relative to that letter that he found on file, the statement before the Commissioner, and the examination record may go iato the record and appear. No objection being offered, the following papers were put in evidence : ' Department of the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., October 4, 1906. Albert J. Lee, Attorney at Law, Ardmore, Ind. T. Dear Sir: I inclose herewith copy of the order of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes of October 4, 1906, denying the petition submitted by you for the transfer of the names of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, Lemon Butler, and Julius Butler from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. The original petition, with the order of the Commissioner, has this day been trans- mitted to the Secretary of the Interior for review. Respectfully, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. 386 E'lVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Depaktmbnt of the Interior Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. In the matter of the application for the transfer of the names of Mary Butler, et al., from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. decision. The record herein shows that on January 15, 1906, there was filed by Albert J. Lee, attorney for the petitioners, a petition praying for the transfer of the names of Mary Butler and her minor children, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, Lemon Butler, and Julius Butler, from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation; that the petitioner, Mary Butler, claims to be the daughter of Hampton Willis, who is alleged to have been "one-half Choctaw and Chickasaw mixed, a little Chickasaw," and Julia Russell, a negro woman; that the petitioners Henry Butler, George BUtler, Lemon Butler, and Julius Butler are the children of Prince Butler, a negi'o, and the petitioner, Mary Butler; that the peti- tioner Willie Roberts is the child of Mary Butler and Dennis Roberts, an alleged Choctaw Indian. The record herein further shows that a hearing in the matter of said petition was had at the office of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Muskogee, Indian Terri- tory, February 13, 1906. The records of this office show that the petitioners Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, George Butler, and Lemon Butler have been enrolled as Choctaw freedmen and their names appear upon the final roll of Choctaw freedmen approved by the Secretary of the Interior, as follows: Mary Butler, opposite No. 4367. Willie Roberts, opposite No. 4369. George Butler, opposite No. 4370. Lemon Butler, opposite No. 4371. Application for the enrollment of Henry Butler as a Choctaw freedman is now pend- ing before this office. Application was made by Prince Butler to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Alikchi, Indian Territory, April 27, 1899, for the enrollment of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, and Henry Butler, among others, as freedmen of the Choctaw Nation. Subsequent thereto written applications were made for the enrollment of George Butler and Lemon Butler as Choctaw freedmen. It does not appear from the records of this office that any application was ever made for the enrollment of the applicant Julius Butler as a Choctaw freedman or as a citizen by blood of the Choctaw Nation prior to the filing of the petition herein. It does not appear from the record herein or from the records of this office that at the time application was made for the enrollment of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, and Lemon Butler as Choctaw freedmen or at any time prior to January 15, 1906, date of the filing of the petition, was any application ever made for the enrollment of any of the petitioners as citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. I am, therefore, of the opinion that inasmuch as it has not been shown that any application was ever made for the enrollment of any of the petitioners as citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation within the time prescribed by law, the petition herein should be denied, under the provisions of section 4 of the act of Congress approved April 26, 1906 (Public No. 129), and it is so ordered. Tams Bixby^ Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., October 4, 1906. Affidavit of Albert. J. Lee. United States of America, Indian Territory, Southern District, ss: Albert J. Lee, first being duly sworn, on oath states that on the 12th day of February, 1906, at the office of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, he examined the rec- ords and correspondence in the Choctaw Freedman case of Mary Butler et al., among the papers of which he found the letter set out hereinbelow, and which he states he copied verbatim, and that the same reads as follows: FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 387 Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., March 16, 1901. Prince Butler, Grant, Ind. T. Dear Sir: Receipt is hereby acknowledged of the application for enrollment as a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of George Butler, the infant son of Prince and Mary Butler, born April 3, 1900. The application is again returned for the reason, as stated in the Commiseion's letter of the 23d of February. The mother of the child appears upon our records as listed for enrollment as a Chickasaw Freedman. There is inclosed you herewith a new blank application which you will have made out in conformity with the corrections made in lead-pencil upon the application returned you herewith. Upon the return of the new application in proper form for the enrollment of the child as a freedman the matter will be given further consideration. Yours, truly, Albert J. Lee, Acting Chairman. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 14th day of February, 1906. [seal.] Mary J. Taylor, Notary Public vnthin and for the Southern District of the Indian Territory. My commission will expire March the 10th, 1908. Beforre the honorable Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Muskogee, Ind. T. Petition of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, Lemon Butler- and Julius Butler, Children of the said Mary Butler, for the Correction of the Enroll, ment Records of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, in the Matter of Their Enrollment as Freedmen of the Choctaw Nation, and for the Transfer of Their Names from the said Freedman RoU to the roll of Choctaw Citizens by Blood. STATEMENT. Mary Butler, the principal petitioner herein, is of one-fourth Choctaw blood, one- fourth white blood, and one-half negro blood. She is the daughter of Hamp Willis, a half-breed Choctaw and white citizen of the Choctaw Nation. Her mother was Julia Russell, a negro woman. The said Julia Russell was the common-law wife of the said Hamp Willis and lived with him continuously as his wife until his death, some twenty- nine years ago. Mary Butler, by her lawful husband. Prince Butler, is the mother of four children, and by Dennis Roberts the mother of Willie Roberts. Willie Roberts, one of the petitioners herein, is the son of Dennis Roberts, a full- blood recognized Choctaw citizen, and of Mary Butler, the petitioner herein. These petitioners, being each and all descendants of duly recognized Choctaw citi- zens, and having been bom within the Choctaw Nation and to its allegiance, respect- fully represent to the Commissioner that under the ruling of the Assistant Attorney- General in the case of Joe and Dillard Perry they are entitled to a correction of the Choc- taw enrollment records by the transfer of their names from the roll of Choctaw Freed- men to the roll of Choctaw Citizens by Blood. Mary Butler, one of the petitioners herein, states under oath the facts as above set forth, which sworn statement is attached hereto and made a part of this petition. Respectfully submitted. Attorney for Petitioners. Albert J. Lee, attorney for petitioners in the above matter, stated that on this 13th day of January, 1906, he mailed under registry receipt a copy of the above petition to Manns- field, MacMurray and Cornish, attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations at South McAlester, Ind. T., which registry receipt is hereto attached. Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of , 1906. Notary Public within and for the Southern District of the Indian Territory. My commission will expire , 190 — . 388 ^IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Department op the Inteeiok, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., February IS, 1906. In the matter of the petition of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, Lemon Butler, and Julius Butler, the children of the said Mary Butler, for the correction of the em-ollment records of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes in the matter of their enrollment as freedmen of the Cho.ctaw Nation, and for the trans- fer of their names from the said freedman roll to the roll of Choctaw citizens by blood. Under the regulations adopted by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes January 2, 1906, there was filed on January 15, 1906, by Albert J. Lee, the attorney for the petitioners, a petition praying that the names of Mary Butler, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, Lemon Butler, and Julius Butler be transferred from the approved roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. January 30, 1906, the petitioner, Mary Butler, Grant, Ind. T., Albert J. Lee, Ard- more, Ind. T., her attorney of record, and Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations at South McAlester, Ind. T., were advised that the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes would, at his office at Muskogee, Ind. T., onMonday, February 12, 1906, at 2 o'clock p. m. , hear such testimony and receive such other evidence as might be presented by the petitioner in support of her application for the transfer of her name and those of her children from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. This cause being called for hearing on Monday, February 12, 1906, as specified in the notices above referred to, it was upon agreement of the attorney for the petitioner and the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations continued for further hearing until February 13, 1906. Now on this 13th day of February, 1906, at 3 o'clock p.m., this cause being called for hearing, the following appearances were entered and proceedings had. Appearances; Petitioner, Mary Butler; witnesses. Pink Thompson and Jim Russell. Albert J. Lee, Ardmore, Ind. T., appearing as attorney for the petitioners. G. Rosen- winkel, of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish appearing on behalf of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations. By Mr. Lee. I will ask to have included in this petition the name of Stephen Rob- erts, minor child, now deceased, of Mary Butler, the principal petitioner herein. By the Commissioner. We will have to confine the hearing to the allegations in the petition. By Mr. Rosenwinkel. The Choctaw and Chickasaw nations object to any proceed- ings in this case for the reason that no formal application was made for the enrollment of the applicants as citizens by blood of either the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations within the time prescribed by the act of July 1, 1902, and for the further reason that their names do not appear upon any of the tribal rolls and that therefore, under the act of May 31, 1900, the Secretary of the Interior is without power to inquire into their status at this time. By Mr. Lee. The petitioners respectfully submit that the objections stated by the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations are in fact an answer to the petition filed in this case and is precluded under the limit of time set out in the order of the Commissioner dated January 2, 1906. They further submit that no objections to the introduction of testimony can be made until the testimony is actually introduced and then only on the ground that such testimony is incompetent, immaterial, and irrele- vant. Mary Butler, being first duly sworn, testifies as follows: By the Commissioner: Q. What is your name? — A. Mary Butler. Q. Your age?— A. 36. Q. Where do you live? — A. Grant. Q. In what nation? — A. Choctaw Nation. Q. How long have you lived in the Choctaw Nation? — A. All my days. Q. You have submitted to the Commissioner a petition praying for the transfer of the names of yourself and your children, Willie Roberts, Henry Butler, George Butler, Lemon Butler, and Julius Butler from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citi- zens by blood of the Choctaw Nation; are these persons all now living? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How old is Julius feutler? — A. 2 years old. Q. When was she bom? — A. 1904. Q. What day and month? — A. February 2d. Q. Has any application ever been made prior to this time for the enrollment of this child as a Choctaw freedman or citizen of the Choctaw Nation?— A. No, sir, until this time. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 389 Q. This petition you have filed is the first time you have made application to have this child enrolled? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Lee: Q. Who is your father? — A. Hampton Willis. Q. Always called Hampton? — A. Yes; Hamp is his short name. Q. Was he a Choctaw? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Full blood?— A. A half blood. Q. Half what? — A. Half Choctaw and Chickasaw mixed — a little Chickasaw. Q. Did he have any white blood? — A. Yes, sir. Q. His father was a white man and his mother was a Choctaw? — A. I know he was a Choctaw. Q, You know his father was a white man? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your mother? — A. Julia Russell. Q. Is she a Choctaw? — A. No, sir. Q. What was she? — A. Negro. Q. She was a slave? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Was she the wife of Hamp Willis? — A. Only common law. Q. What do you mean by that? — A. Wasn't married. Q. Did she live with him? — A. Yes. Q. AE the time? — A. I couldn't tell you anything about that; I was small. Q. Are you married to Butler? — A. Yes. Q. Lawfully? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are all these children that you have named the children of Prince Butler? — A. Yes, sir; with the exception of Willie. Q. Whose child is Willie? — A. Dennis Roberts. Q. Who is he?— A. Choctaw. Q. Is he living or dead? — A. Living. Q. Where?— A. Grant. Q. Is he an enrolled Choctaw? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Rosenwinkel: Q. Are you the oldest child of your parents? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know how long they were living together before your birth? — ^A. No, sir. Q. Your information is that they were never lawfully married? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Lee: Q. Did Hamp Willis have any brothers? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What are their names? — ^A. Jim Willis and William Willis. By the Commissioner: Q. Where was you born? — A. Towson County, Choctaw Nation. Q. Have you always lived there? — ^A. I lived there after my mother brought me from Kiamitia County. Q. Have you ever drawn any money or been recognized by the Choctaws as a citi- zen? — A. No, sir. Q. You say that Dennis Roberts, the father of Willie Roberts, is a Choctaw? — A. Yes, sir. , Q. Choctaw Indian? — A. Full blood. Q. Has he an allotment? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Was you married to Dennis Roberts? — A. No, sir. Q. Who is the father of the Butler children? — A. Prince Butler. Q. Is he a Choctaw citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Choctaw Indian? — A. No, sir. Q. Freedman? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was you married to him? — ^A. Yes, gir. Q. Then the only rights that you and your children get are through your father, Hamp Willis? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. With the possible exception of this child, Willie Roberts? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have any of these children drawn any money or been on any rolls? — A. No, sir. Q. Where did you apply for the enrollment of yourself and your children; what place was it? — A. First at old Doaksville in Towson County. Q. What place was it that you were before the Dawes Commission? — A. The last time? Q. Yes?— A. Antlers. Q. Was you there yourself? — A. No, sir; Prince went. Q. Have you ever applied to the Dawes Commission for the enrollment of yourself and these children as Choctaw Indians prior to the time that you sent this petition here?— A, No, sir. 390 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Have you ever asserted any rights, either you or your husband, Prince Butler, for the enrollment of these children as Choctaw Indians? — ^A. No, sir. (Witness excused.) Pink Thompson, being first duly sworn, testifies as follows: By the Commissioner: Q. What is your name? — A. Pink Thompson. Q. Your age and post-office address? — A. Fifty years old; Fort Towson. Q. Are you a Choctaw or Chickasaw freedman? — A. Well, I filed as a Choctaw freedman. By Mr. Lee: Q. Do you know Mary Butler? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know who her father was? — ^A. Claimed Hamp Willis. Q. Do you know Julia Russell? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know whether Julia Russell ever lived with Hamp Willis or not?— A. No, sir; I don't. Q. But you know Hamp Willis? — A. Yes. Q. Was he a Choctaw? — A. Well, I believe he was. He lived there and claimed Choctaw. Q. Do you know Dennis Roberts? — A. I don't know him. Witness excused. Jim Russell, being first duly sworfi, testifies as follows: By the Commissioner: Q. WTiat is your name? — ^A. Jim Russell. Q. Youri^e?— A. About 49. Q. Post-office? — A. Kiamitia. Q. Are you a citizen or freedman of the Choctaw or Chickasaw Nation? — A. Choctaw citizen. Q. Citizen by blood? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Received an allotment as a citizen? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Lee: Q. Do you know Mary Butler? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know who her father was? — A. Yes. Q. Who?— A. Hamp Willis. Q. Was he a Choctaw? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know Dennis Roberts? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know whether Dennis Roberts has a child by Mary Butler? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you know? — A. I have seen them. By Mr. Rosen winkel. We object to the witness testifying as to the relationship and pedigree of the family; he isn't qualified to testify to that. He is not a blood relative of the family. By Mr. Lee: Q. Are you any relation to Mary Butler? — A. No, sir; only I married her mother. Q. You married her mother? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Living with you at this time? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You say that you have seen the child of this Dennis Roberts? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You know that he is the child of Dennis Roberts, do you?— A. Yes, sir; he has told me himself that it is hie child. By Mr. Rosenwinkel. We move to exclude all of the testimony of this witness which tends to prove the blood and racial status of Hamp Willis on the ground that it is incompetent. You can't prove blood or racial status by testimony of this kind. The records of the Commissioner are the best evidence. By Mr. Lee. I do not wish to make any objection except that it is competent. By Mr. Rosenwinkel: Q. What you know about the parents of these children you have learned by hear- say; you know from what other people have told you? — A. No, sir; only from the mother and the daddy. Q. Were you present when these children were born? — A. Yes, sir; the mother was at home living with me. Q. You saw them born? — A. Yes, sir. By the Commissioner: Q. Did you mean to say that you were present when these children were bom to Mary Butler? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you there? — A. No, I wasn't there. By Mr. Lee. Bom in your house? — A. Yes, s ir. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 391 By the Commissioner: Q. You testified that Hamp Willis was the father of Mary Butler? — A. Yes, sir. Q; Who was the mother of Mary Butler? — A. Julia Russell. Q. That's your present wife? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been married to Julia Russell?— A. About twenty years. Q. Was Hamp Willis married to Julia Russell before you was married to her? — A. Not as I- know of. Q. Then how do you know that Hamp Willis is the father of Mary Butler? — A. By hearing the others say so. Q. It is hearsay? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Lee. Is it generally known that she is? — ^A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Rosenwinkel. I object; you can't prove family relationship by general reputation. By Mr. Lee. I want the same objection to show in this record that under the regula- tions prescribed by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes under date of Jan- uary 2, 1906, the petitioners object to the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes cros.s-examining witnesses with a representative of the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations present for that purpose. (Witness excused.) OiiGA Petrofp, a stenographer to the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, on oath states that she correctly reported the proceedings had in the above-entitled cause and that the foregoing is a full, true, and correct transcript of her stenographic notes thereof. Olga Petrofp. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 16th day of February, 1906. [seal.] Walter W. Chappell, Notary Public. Senator Long. When was that decided ? Mr. Lee. This was decided recently — October 4, 1906. Senator Long. Has that been appealed to the Secretary? Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; it has been appealed to the Secretary. Senator Long. And is not yet decided ? Mr. Lee. I beg to correct that statement. The appeal has not yet been filed. I bave drawn it up. Senator Long. You are still within^the time ? Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. It will be filed. I thought it had been. The Chairman. I will say to you gentlemen here who are inter- ested in this matter that we do not care to take this matter up in the daytime, but will take it up at the evening session. Mr. Rogers. I would like to make one request. When the charges and complaint were handed to Mr. Bixby and Mr. Beall it was late. The Chairman. It was at a very late hour, I know. Mr. Rogers. We would Uke to have the privilege of preparing an answer and filing it. The Chairman. Certainly. Mr. Ballingee. With reference to the statement made by Mr. Cornish The Chairman. We do not wish to hear any argument now. Mr. Ballinger. It is not an argument, but I desire to say that we do not agree at all as to the statement of the law. The Chairman. To those interested I will say that to-morrow morning at 9 o'clock we will proceed to hear those who wish to be heard on the question of alienation, and to-morrow evening at 8 o'clock, Mr. Ballinger, you will be prepared to go on with this matter ? Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir. At 10:25 p. m. the committee adjourned till to-morrow, Friday, November 16, 1906, at 9 o'clock a. m. 392 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Muskogee, Ind. T., Friday, November 16, 1906. The committee met at 9 a. m. at the rooms of the Commercia Club. Present, Messrs. Clark (Wyoming), chairman; Long, Brandegee Teller, and Clark, of Montana. The Chairman. Gentlemen, the first part, at least, of our day' session will be devoted to the question of the removal of restrictions in which many are interested, and I have asked Mr. Owen to presen his views in regard to that matter. STATEMENT OF MB.. ROBERT L. OWEN. Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee: In appearinj before the committee I do so on my own individual account anc representing nobody on earth except myself. I believe, however that I do represent the sentiment of a great number of people ii this country. I will not presume to say how large a majority, but '. think I do represent- the sentiment of a great many people. W regard the question of the removal of restrictions as vitally impor tant to the development of our country. We have undertaken t( build up cities in this country, the result of which efforts you sei before you in this town, where men have spent hundreds of thousand of dollars. The assessment of this town is now ten millions, and wi have been building up these towns without being able to build u] the surrounding country, which ought to support these towns b] the cultivation of the land. In presenting this matter I want to call attention to some ele mentary propositions, which I think the committee ought to hav( carefully m mind. The first proposition which I wish to lay dowi is that the Interior Department, or the Government of the Unitec States, for that matter, has no supervisory control of any Unitet States citizen within our borders — not one. In 1901, while ii Washington city, I had the honor of drawing the form of a bil giving citizenship of the United States to every Indian in Indiai Territory. I presented it to the committees. I presented it t( Senator Piatt, of Connecticut, the predecessor of Senator Brandege( of this committee. Senator Piatt agreed with me on this proposi tion. After talking the matter over with him, and he being some; what indisposed, I made this argument to him: that the Unitec States in 1861 had been rent asunder by a violent internal war the chief differences between the contending parties being as to th( extension of slavery; that the whole country was torn by the debates of that period; that it was agreed by the majority of the people o: the United States that slavery was wrong; that slavery was wronj as a moral proposition; that slavery had the effect of taking awa) from the individual the right of personal initiative; took away fron the individual the right of self-control, of self-direction, and there fore it prevented the development of the black race in the Unitec States; and I said to him that that argument applied with equa force to the red race, and that the individual could never develof so long as he was kept a ward; so long as he was kept under th( supervisory control of the United States; so long as he was treatec as the Osage Indian was treated, the Osages being the ricnesl FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 393 people per capita in the world, have made no progress, but, on the contrary, have been kept as a prey for traders, and the Osage Indian has been a pensioner, receiving every ninety days a large amount from the Treasury of the United States, and having no occasion what- ever to make any effort for his own development. And Senator Piatt agreed with me that the principle was right, and that the Indian people should be given their freedom and no longer be under supervisory control. And Senator Teller will remember the great influence which Senator Piatt had with the Indian Committee, and it was upon his consent and with' his advice that that committee passed that bill, and they never would have passed it except for the advice of Senator Piatt. Now, when that bill was passed and citizenship was given to the Indians of Indian Territory I believed that I had rendered a service to my people. I lived to discover my mistake. The Interior Depart- ment immediately construed that law out of existence. They took the ground that although he had been given citizenship of the United States nevertheless he still was a ward, he still was subject to the supervisory control of the employees of the Interior Department, and they still had a right to manage him and his afl^airs, and they are doing it to this day, collecting the money belonging to the Indians of this country, depositing it in the banks around here, and exercising entire control over his estate. They have done that notwithstanding the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States — an opinion pre- sented in the Senate of the United States only this last spring by Sena- tor Teller and by Senator Clark — and I want to call the attention of this committee to that decision, to the decision of the Supreme Court in the Rickert case, which was a Dakota case and upon which the Inte- rior Department has been standing all these years. The E-ickert case was a case in Dakota where the Indian had received an allotment. He had become a citizen of the United States, it is true, but he had not received the full title to the land. On the contrary, the United States as trustee held that land; the United States had turned over to that man, however, certain property for the purpose of enabling him to develop it, and the State of Dakota undertook to tax that prop- erty. The Supreme Court held, in effect, in that case that the prop- erty was in the United States, that the United States had not deliv- ered the title to this Indian, that the personal property turned over to him was, in effect, the property of the United States, and therefore the United States, in pursuance of its policy, had the right to protect the property which he was using by virtue of that policy. Therefore the court held that Dakota did not have the right to tax the property. When the case came up from Kansas recently, the Albert Heff case, with which Senator Long is doubtless thoroughly familiar, the Supreme Court held that the United States had no supervisory con- trol of an Indian who had become a citizen of the United States, although he was a full-blood Indian. The Department of the Inte- rior caused this previous Dakota decision to be argued before the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Attorney-General, repre- senting the views of the Department of the Interior, urged this decision in the Rickert case as a reason why the Supreme Court should declare for supervisory control over the Indian. I wish to read the language of the Supreme Court in commenting on that Rickert case. The court said. S. Rep. .501.3, .59-2. pt 1 26 394 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. But the logic of this argument implies that the United States can never release itsel from the obligation of guardianship; that so long as an individual is an Indian bj descent Congress, although it may have granted all the rights and privileges of nationa and therefore State citizenship, the benefits and burdens of the laws of the State ma; at any time repudiate this action and reassume its guardianship and prevent the India: from enjoying the benefits of the laws of the State and release him from obligations o obedience thereto. Can it be that because one has Indian, and only Indian, blood ii his veins he is to be forever one of a special class over whom the General Governmen may in its discretion assume the rights of guardianship which it has once abandoned and this whether the State or the individual himself consents? We think the reach b which this argument goes demonstrates that it is unsound. Gentlemen, that is the decision of the Supreme Court and its com- ment upon the Rickert case, and the Rickert case is the strength oi the Interior Department in supporting the theory of maintaining supervisory control over the citizenship of this country. The Supreme Court leaves no possible doubt about its meaning, but it goes on and gives this unanswerable and undebatable declaratior of principle. Here is the language of the court : In United States v. Bickert (188 U. S.,-432) we sustained the right of the Govern ment to protect the lands thus allotted and patented from an incumbrance of Stati taxation. But it is unnecessary to pursue this discussion further. We are of opinioi that when the United States grants the privileges of citizenship to an Indian it give him the benefit of and requires him to be subject to the laws, both civil and criminal of the State; it places him outside the reach of police regulations on the part of Con gress; that the emancipation from Federal control thus created can not be set aside ai the instance of the Government without the consent of the individual Indian and th( State, and that this emancipation from Federal control is not affected by the fact thai the lands it has granted to the Indian are granted subject to a condition against aliena tion and incumbrance, or the further fact that it guarantees to him an interest in triba or other property. It is impossible for the English language to make clearer the propo- sition than when the Indians of Indian Territory were given complete citizenship of the United States they were emancipated from Federal control, and that when they were emancipated the United States itsell has not the right to reassume gu&,rdianship of these people or of theii property. I am perfectly willing to concede, and I do concede, that the grantor of this estate, the Cherokee Nation, for example, has a right to impose a condition upon the property granted, but the condition which the grantor nation has the right to impose relates to the property, and to the property alone. It does not Umit the independence of the indi- vidual, and the Cherokee Nation has no more right to limit the inde- pendence of the individual than the Congress of the United States, neither more nor less. Title is vested in the individual when the allotment certificate issues to him, as will appear in the case of Wallace v. Adams, Fed. Rep. vol. 143, page 721, speaking of the Dawes Commission, as follows: This tribunal undoubtedly has exclusive jurisdiction to determine such claims and to issue such a conveyance. The allotment certificate when issued, like a patent to land, is dual in its effect. It is an adjudication of the special tribunal, empowered to decide the question, that the party to whom it issues is entitled to the land, and it is a conveyance of the right to this title to the allottee. U. S. v. Winona and St. Peter R. Co., 15 CCA. 96, 103, 67 Fed. 948, 955. Like a patent, it is impervious to collateral attack. (Circuit Court of Appeals, Eighth Circuit, Feb. 21, 1906.) I grant that the Cherokee Nation may impose a condition upon that title by which these tracts of land may not be sold for five years; but I maintain before this honorable committee and before the country that if I have this limited estate, being myself a free man, I have a right to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 395 sell my limited estate to whom I please, and when I please, and for n-h&t I please. I have a right to give it away in charity; I have a •ight to give it away in folly; I have a right to dispose of it as I please. But I can not divest myself of the legal title for five years, because the jstate which I have forbids it ; but I can sell my equitable estate in the property and give good right to my equitable vendee, and thereafter I svould hold that property as trustee for my equitable vendee, and the Supreme Court will so hold, in my judgment. Now, if true, that is a most important proposition. I may be in error with regard to it, but I believe it to be true, and this country seems to believe it to be true, because it is acting upon that theory, and these equitable estates are changing hands all over the country, the laws to the contrary notwithstanding. And therefore I hold that it is a most important matter to the Indian people. I do not care to discuss sections 19 and 20 of the recent act of April 26, 1906. They are so obviously contrary to the Constitution of the United States in assuming to take away property rights belonging to other people that I hardly believe it is necessary to go into that before this committee, except to point out the fact that the property rights of an individual can not be taken away from him except by due process of law, and it is not due process of law to pass an act of Congress taking those rights away from liim in the manner proposed. That I believe to be true, and it is now being presented to the courts of the United States and will be taken to the Supreme Court as rapidly as possible. The cases are already in court and preference will be given to them. Senator Teller. You mean as to the extension of these limita- tions? Mr. Owen. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Well, you want to remember that the committee here did not recommend that legislation at all. Mr. Owen. I understand that, and therefore I say it is hardly neces- sary for me to take up this matter before this committee. Now, if my theory is correct that I am a free man, that I am a citizen of the United States, that I have the right to do with xnj property as I please without the aid and consent of the Interior Department — if that be true, if it be true that I can sell my equitable estate, holding the legal title in trust for my equitable vendee, if that be true, then the proposition is obviously true that these restrictions do not protect. They simply hold the hands of the citizenship of this country while their pockets are being picked, as I said to a reporter in Washington, and which was afterwards quoted by you. Senator Clark, in the Senate. The first proposition, therefore, that I want to lay before this com- mittee is that under the decision in the Albert Heff case the United States has no'supervisory control of me, and it has no supervisory con- trol of any other citizen of the United States who formerly was a mem- ber of one of these tribes. In that connection I wish to call the atten- tion of this committee to another act recommended by the Interior Department on the theory of protecting the lands of this country against the M. K. and T. Railroad land grant suit — the extension of tribal relations. I want to call the attention of this committee, first, to the fact that it was not necessary to extend the tribal relations for the purpose of protecting this country against that suit. That that theory was false for this reason: The Cherokee Nation, by its own vote, under the authority of Congress, act of July 1, 1902, voted its If 396 I'lVE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. own extinction. The Cherokee Nation as a tribe ceased to exist i September, 1902. I was a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, and m tribal relations ceased in September, 1902, and I refuse to renew m tribal relations, and I refuse to agree to the proposition that the Int rior Department may require me to renew my tribal relations to tribe extinct and dead by its own vote. Shall that tribe be dragge from its grave and rehabilitated with life and I made a member of ii I deny the proposition as either a legal or a moral proposition. I sa it was not necessary for the protection of this property against the M. I and T. Railroad to extend those tribtmal relations, andTl say so for th reason: By the vote of the Cherokee people of September, 1902, tl property of the Cherokee Nation ceased to be tribal property on thi date and became vested in the individuals of the extinct tribe as ( the rolls made of that date, September, 1902. I lay that down as legal proposition that I think no lawyer will take issue with. B their vote they terminated the tribe. By their vote they declare this property vested in themselves as individuals, and the propert vested in those individuals can never be taken away. David Muskrat, representing the Keetoowa Society, yesterda called attention to the fact that the United States had passed a pre vision to give to all children born since 1902 the right to an allotmen I am perfectly willing to give all of the property to the children bor since 1902, as far as I am concerned. I would be delighted to ha'v them take it as a sentimental proposition; but as a legal propositio this land, which has been vested in these Indians on tlie roll of Sej tember, 1902, can not be divested of them and invested in other pe( pie without their consent, and the individual consent is obviousi impossible to obtain. So that as a practical proposition the settl( ment of that estate by the act of 1902 is ended, it is concluded, and : can not be reopened. But sentiment has much to do with legislatioi and we often get sentimental acts that forget entirely the Constitutio of the United States and its provisions. I care nothing for this mal ter of the children's estate except to point out this legal propositioi and it is going to lead to a lot of suits. The Keetoowa Society wi bring a suit to set aside these proposed estates to be taken and give to the children because they say it is not good law, and I think thei is not the slightest doubt about their position being correct as a matte of law. Now, gentlemen, the theory upon which these restrictions have bee put upon the people of this country is based upon two proposition! The first is that the United States has supervisory control of tli Indian citizen, and the second proposition is that it will protect th incompetent man. The Interio^r Department has urged those tw reasons — principally the sentimental reason that the man who is ignc rant of property values -will be defrauded by the unscrupulous. K a sentimental proposition, I sympathize very much with an ignorani poor, dull man who is subjected to the superior craft of the unscrupi) lous. I sympathize with the man who is ignorant and who has chiJ dren to maintain and who is defrauded of his property by craft. Bu while I sympathize with that man as a sentimental proposition, I hav observed that these restrictions do not protect that man. I want t call your attention to the condition of such a man. This man is no legally incompetent; he is merely incompetent in the sense of no being skilled in the knowledge of values — that he does not know mud FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 397 about business. He is spolcen of as incompetent in that sense. The word "incompetent" ought not to be used, because it carries a double meaning. It is an equivocal term. When you say that a man is incompetent you imply that he is incompetent under the law. I maintain the proposition that no matter how ignorant a man is he' is competent under the law. He can not plead ignorance of the law, because his ignorance does not excuse him for a violation of the law, and because he is ignorant does not take from him his individual liberty. Senator Brandegee. It does not make him non compos. Mr. Owen. It does not make him non compos. If he were non compos mentis (if he were a minor), he would tnen be legally incom- petent and he would then be protected by the probate court. The act of a person who is non compos, or a minor, is void because of his legal incompetency to make a contract. But these people of whom we speak are not incompetent imder the law. They are competent under the law, and they can sell their equitable estates with as much freedom, with as much certaintj', as you can. The result of this is that these restrictions which are presumed to protect these people have driven out of this country competitive buying. We see it every day. Train-loads of people come into the Southwest under the advertisements of the network of railroads penetrating the South- west — ^home-seekers' excursions without number. I saw the other day five thousand people go on one excursion from St. Louis into the Southwest to buy homes. Did they stop here ? Indeed they did not. They went through this country without stopping. What is the effect of that on values in this covmtry ? Instead of values rising by leaps and bounds, as they ought to have done, they have risen com- paratively slowly to what they woidd do if there were free competi- tion in buying. There is one class of people who are benefited by keeping these restrictions on. They are those companies engaged in buying lands and whose interests would not be benefited by active competition. That is so obviously true that I hardly know how to present it stronger than to state the fact. If there is anything that is well understood it is that competition will determine the selling price of anything. The farmers can not come in here and buy these lands. A farmer comes here and wants to buy a piece of land. He goes out and after driving around and hunting about at an expense of two arid a half or three dollars a day — he maj' drive around for a week — he frnaUy finds an Indian who has a piece of land which he would like to buy, and he asks the Indian if he wants to sell it. The Indian says "yes," he wants to sell it, but the Indian says, "I can not give you a good deed to it because of the restrictions in this country; and if you want to buy it I will have to go up to Muskogee and get the Indian agent to advertise it, and after it has been advertised there will be an officer sent out to appraise it; and after his report goes in it is offered for sale under sealed bids, and I don't know whether you can buy it or not; perhaps you might." I ask you, gentlemen, as a matter of plain common sense whether any farmer coming down into this country is able to submit to that kind, of a proposition? He obviously can not do it. He can not wait, and he does not know whether he is going to get anything or not, and the man is ordinarily required by his conditions to be economical and not waste his funds; 398 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. and so he finds it more advantageous to him as a business proposi tion to go to some of these companies and pay their commission. Now, that is what they actually do, and these companies charm them a good substantial commission, and they give the farmer somi advantages in giving him a period of time within which to pay for tb property. They will, perhaps, give him five years, making him pa^ enough down to reimburse their original purchase money, and tneS let him pay for five years more, the profits coming to them. It i a very thoughtful and judicious way to make a living. I do no criticise these land men. I am calling attention to tms fact, how ever, that the Indian, instead of being able to deal with the farmer who would give him the full price, is compelled to deal with the mid dleman, and afterward thfr farmer comes in and pays the commission I was talking to General Porter, chief of the Creek Nation, a fev days ago. A piece of land was bought by a land-buyer right next t( his farm. He wanted to buy it, but the land-buyer would not taki three times what he had paid for it. It illustrates what I am callinj attention to, and I offer it simply as an incident — as an illustration General Porter would have been wUling to pay two or three timei what the Indian got, but General Porter did not care to take the trou ble to work it out and go through this red tape. Senator Brandegee. Within how long a time had it trebled tha way in value ? Mr. Owen. I do not think it had trebled in value at all. Senator Brandegee. I mean, tlie price had risen? Mr. Owen. It was only a short time. A Voice. The piece was bought in last May. Mr. Owen. Well, I do not know just what period it was, but thii country is fuU of such incidents. The Indian is absolutely bein| deprived of his legitimate right of competition. Competition hai been run out of this country, and run out of it by the endless red tap( of these departments. I do not blame these boys who make up these rules and regulations They are in the governing business, and are doing it the best the] know how, but it reminds me a little bit of the old sign in the dana hall at Deadwood — " Gentlemen are requested not to shoot the pianist he is doing the best he can." I don't blame these men; they are doinj the best they can, and I don't blame the Secretary of the Interior except, perhaps, for being a little bit too suspicious, and I don't wan to criticise him before this committee. Senator Teller. Where does the blame lie ? Mr. Owen. I am going to point it out right now. The blame lies ii this — in that frailty of human nature which always persuades a mai at a long distance that he can govern somebody else better than th( Eeople can govern themselves. That is the argument of kings, and i ad its foundation in the human heart before the American continen was discovered, and it will be in the human heart as long as mai remains in his present condition. We all believe we could goven other people better. I rather incline to think I could do it myself That frailty, gentlemen, has dominated the Interior Department evei since the passage of this act of 1901. When that act of 1901 wai passed, I thought the supervisory control would terminate — Senator Long. That was the purpose of the act, was it not? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 399 Mr. Owen. Certainly it was — iindoubtedly it was. That was the only purpose of the act. It was to give personal liberty to these people. That was the exact purpose of it, out the purpose has been thwarted and annulled — nullified by the construction placed upon it by the employees of the Interior Department. When these different agreements were up from this country — I want to call the attention of this committee to the history of this matter — these agreements did not go up from the Indian people asking that they be put under these restrictions. In the case of the Choctaws and Chickasaws alone it was desired, and that was desired by one of the best men iu the world, Capt. James S. Standley, whom Senator Teller will remember, a man of great purity of mind and uprightness of char- acter, and his idea was that they could be given five years within which to become accustomed to hand.ling land; that they should be allowed to sell one-fourth in one year, one-fourth in three years, and the remain- der in five years, so that they would, by familiarity with dealings of that character, not make any mistakes by selling out completely at once. They still have in that country, after the surplus land should be dis- posed of, a large homestead, ranging from eighty acres of the very finest possible bottom land, worth seventy or eighty dollars an acre, up to two thousand acres of common land. Now, m all the other cases, in the case of the Creeks, the Seminoles, and the Cherokees — I do not clearly remember about the Seminoles, but I do about the Creeks and the Cherokees — when these agreements were drawn up first they did not have these restrictions, but when they went into the Interior Department these restrictions were written in. I remember that Gen- eral Porter, when he represented the Creeks up there, was not dis- posed to have these restrictions put on, but when he got up there he was accused by persons in the departments of being in sympathy with Eeople who wanted to graft on the lands of the Indians. He is a very onorable, sensitive, high-strung man, and it had a great effect on his mind, and his feeling was that ne could not bear to be subjected to such a suspicion as that, and he yielded to the desire of the Department to impose restrictions on the sale and lease of these lands. Senator Long. Section 14, then, was not in the Cherokee agreement when it was voted on ? Mr. Owen. It was not in the Cherokee agreement when it was first framed. The Cherokees afterwards, you remember, refused to make any agreement at all, and Congress passed an agreement and sent it down to them to confirm. Senator Long. And they confirmed it with that section? Mr. Owen. They confirmed it without having had any voice in its framing. It came out of the Interior Department. That is where it came from, and the Interior Department has absolutely written its name across every one of these agreements in such a maimer as to extend these rules and regulations and their tenure of office and their authority. I do not really believe that the ordinary men in the Department are doing this for the purpose of extending their tenure of office, but I do believe that they are extremely desirous of magnifying their importance. That old principle of human nature is just as much in effect there as anywhere else in governing bodies ; and you know it to be a fact that they made themselves busy about these agreements whenever they could before Congress, and they sent for members of 400 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the Senate committee and urged upon them the necessitj of keeping up these restrictions for the purpose alwajrs of protecting the poor Indian, and incidentally enlarging the duties of the protector, and enlarging the authority of the protector; and I say that the only people who are benefited by these restrictions are those employees of thi Interior Department who keep the grist grinding and who contmue to enlarge their own authority, and the men who are buying land down here and are free from competition. These are the two classes oi people who are benefited. It is the land buyer who knows how to meet these rules and regulations, and it is the employees of the Inte- rior Department. Those are the persons who are benefited. It does not benefit the man competent to manage his affairs. I have an illus- tration of that in my own case. I have my homestead, twenty acres of land, up in Cooweecoowee district. I can not lease that land with- out the approval of these clerks in the Interior Department, in theii anxiety to protect me. Senator Long. You never had your restrictions removed? Mr. Owen. I have never had my restrictions removed, and I would not apply to have my restrictions removed, because I do not recognize that I have any personal restrictions whatever. I am as free a man as any member of this committee. I have the same personal rights under the Constitution of the United States, and I will not consent tc bow my head to the Interior Department to have my restrictions removed ; and there are thousands of men in this country who feel the same way — that it is a humiliation and a disgrace that they should have to bow their heads before these Department clerks to have theii restrictions removed. I would take that land and sink it in the bottom of the sea before I would ever benefit by the removal of mj restrictions. I was going to say that my homestead has an oil field developed right up against it, producing a hundred barrels a day — the wells are producing a hundred barrels a day. I will let them take every barre of oil from under my homesetad before I will ever consent to apply tc have my restrictions removed. A man named Weber has developed s field right against my land and has been urging me to allow him tc develop that land. 1 will not. Weber can drill his wells against thai land and suck it dry. These restrictions do not protect the competent man, and I allege as a fact that they do not protect the incompetent man, and I am pre- pared to prove it now before this committee, and I will show you how The Chairman. Would it disturb you if I interrupt with a question' Mr. Owen. Not at all. The Chairman. There was a claim made at Vinita that under the present rules and regulations of the Interior Department itwas impos- sible for an allottee to develop his own allotment as to mineral or oi or other resources ? Mr. Owen. It is practically impossible for him to do so unless he li peculiarly expert in the oil business. The Chairman. Is it impossible for him to contract with other peo- ple to develop it ? Mr. Owen. He is forbidden to make a working contract with an other person. It is practically impossible for him to make a contraci with anybody else to do it. He has got to go through this long hn( of red tape, a line that has no end. I myself applieeffor some leasei FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 401 eighteen months ago — about. Those leases all lie here still in the Department. I made my financial showing. It was necessary for me to show that I had financial ability. Senator Long. Those were leases on property other than your own? Mr. Owen. Yes, sir; but contiguous to some land I had. I made the financial showing. A few days ago I made it over again, certi- fying that I was worth $40,000 over and above my liabilities, and then I had to go down and have the First National Bank certify that I had the money on deposit there, and this certificate of the First National Bank was required to be, and was, reduplicated 40 or 50 times — a very interesting thing. The Government management here is a very disgraceful one, and one that was so reprehensible that when the people had a chance to vote a few days ago they gave a big majority against this bad man- agement. And this bad management goes to many other things. It goes to the question of guardianship. We all agree that when a minor has an important estate that that estate ought to be protected by proper proceedings in court. But when the minor's estate only brings in a little income of $30 or $40 I submit that it is a shame to have the law so drawn and interpreted that all of that estate shall be consumed in traveling expenses, in hotel bills, in notarial fees, in bonding company fees, and in lawyer's fees and in other kinds of fees that simply consume that little estate. I had an experience myself which is ludicrous. I gave my little girl a lot on East Brook- lyn street. I thought perhaps it might be well to sell it and put the money in bank stock for her benefit. I therefore applied for letters of guardianship. On further reflection I concluded that the lot was increasing in value more rapidly than the bank stock would and that I would leave it as it was. I therefore notified the court that I would not take out the letters. I was summoned before the court by a somewhat summary process, as if I were a personal delinquent. I appeared before that august body with fear and trembling, and was told that if I did not take out those letters the court would be com- pelled to appoint somebody else as guardian of my child. What do you think of that? That is the kind of government we are having in this country. That is the kind of government that disgusts any man, and I protest against it. Now coming back to this question of protecting the incompetent, from which I was diverted by your question, I want to call your at- tention at this time to the legal proposition that a man competent under the law can sell his equitable estate, and that his equitable vendee can hold him to the bargain. And I want to call your attention further to this elementary prop- osition of human nature: This man that we call incompetent, who is competent under the law, is only a man supposed to be very ignorant of business — very ignorant of business. He is the kind of a man who, when he wants money, will sign any kind of an instrument that is put before him. He will sign a warranty deed; he will sign a bond for title and have his friends guarantee it ; he will execute a power of attorney to a neutral person authorizing that person to give a good deed when the restrictions are removed ; he will make his win in favor of his equitable vendee, leaving the balance of the pur- chase nrice to his family and leaving the land to such vendee; he 402 FIVE CIVILIZED XBIBES. will make a contract giving exclusive right of ingress and egress to his equitable vendee; he will execute at the same time a five years' agricultural lease, which is valid under the statute. In addition to that, he will execute a mineral lease on it, and in addition to that, ii he had any legal rights left, he would convey them away. You gentlemen will not assume that that man could go into a court of equity with the money of his equitable vendee in his pocket and obtain redress in that court. If he goes into a court of law, he will face a jury of twelve men who know these conditions in this country and are not in sympathy with a man who receives money and then tries to break the bargain. Probably every member of that jury has a little piece of land that is similarly situated. Here is this man that does not know anything about business and therefore has no money with which to bring a lawsuit, and he is not going to bring any lawsuit and is not going to find any man foolish enough to back him up in a lawsuit, and if he did all that the equi- table vendee would have to do with such a man is to quietly take him around the corner somewhere and give him $50 and have him abate the suit and stop the whole business. Now I ask you as a conscientious proposition, do these restrictions protect the incom- Eetent man, and tne more unwise he is, the niore unlearned in values e is, the less they protect him. The Indian had tne only way on earth to protect the incompetent man, under the old Indian title, which the Congress of the United States, against the universal protest of all these people, violated and broke, and broke those treaties and those agreements upon the express theory of developing the Indian; and instead of developing him, instead of giving him the right, and the free right, of a man to do with his own as he pleases, and take his own responsibility, he has been tied up in swaddling clothes so that he could nave no exercise whatever. I have had some experience with other men in trying to develop them. I have myself spent a good many thousands of dollars in trying to help other men, and I have found this to be my experience with intelligent educated men — that whenever I fixed them up with a certain amount of money each month, while they were going to do things, they always fell down, and they got into the habit of looking to me for a monthly stipend, and if I didn't keep it up they withdrew their friendship. And that is human nature — you know all that. We all have seen intel- ligent worthy men who have been harmed, and seriously harmed, as far as their personal initiative is concerned, by our national pension system. When a man gets a sufficient amount of money to live on as a rule he sits down and lives on it. It takes away from him his personal ambition and energy, and we have seen that exemplified all over this country. There is not a member of this committee who does not know that that is true. And yet here we have established' now, m defiance of the Supreme Court decisions, the very same system by the Interior Department, and they are urging these committees, both here and in Washington, to extend this system for the protection of the full-blood. The full-blood had the only way on earth to protect him in land holding in the way he had the old titles, and they would like to go back to 1832. They can not. It is impossible. The only thing now that remains is to put him upon his own responsibility, and I want to call your attention to an example which the wild Indian follows. When he wants to teach his child to swim he puts the child into swim- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 403 ming water, and it swims. IN'o man is going to develop his powers unless he is charged with the personal responsibility of self-control and self-direction, and the more he is nursed and the more he is made a pensioner the more his powers will decrease and the less development he will make. Now, gentlemen, I want to call your attention to another feature of this matter, and that is that these restrictions not only do harm to the citizen Indian, but they do harm to a class of men whose rights in my judgment have not been fully and properly considered. I want to call your attention to the fact that while the Indians have made prog- ress on their own account, worthy of high commendation — they nave established schools," and they have established respectable govern- ments, and have done many things in the line of development, and they deserve great credit — but I want to call your attention to this: That by their paucity of numbers, by their limited opportunities, they would never have created the values which have been built up in this country. It is a well known economic proposition that the presence of men, that the character of men present, create land values, and the values of this land have been raised from a low point to a very high point, by the presence in this country of intelligent, industrious, and honest people from all over the Union. I want to call your attention to the fact that these restrictions prevent men who have come into this country, and who are creating its values, not only for themselves, but for the Indians as well — the Indians are the direct beneficiaries of the labor of these men — the lands which the Indians retain have all risen in value from two or three dollars an acre up to eight or ten dol- lars an acre on an average, and will rise more and more until they reach about thirty dollars an acre on an average ; and I want to call your attention to the fact that these values are created by white men who come into this country, and they deserve the respect of this Government. It has been stated in Washington that we are not concerned about the white men down there; they went down there of their own motion and if they don't like it down there let them get out. I don't think that that is a proper spirit in which to deal with the citizenship of this great country; but that argument has been made, and you gentlemen have no doubt heard it, and therefore I think it proper to say that those men create the values for the Indian people, of which values the Indian people are directly the beneficiaries ; they get this increase of value, and all they have to do to obtain that increase of value is to sit still and do nothmg. I say that these men should be considered. It has even been said that none of the Indian lands ought to be taxed for the support of the new State. I don't know how other Indians may feel with regard to that — I don't know how they generallv feel about it — but I think that the Indian always desires to do wnat is right and what is fair, and when the Indian sees that his land is rising year by year, from three dollars to five dollars, to seven dollars, to ten dollars, and up and up and up, and he is being benefited by the labor and the good neighborhood and the presence of these laboring citizens of the United States who come in and develop this country, that the Indian is not so ungracious and so ungenerous as to desire that the white man in addition to creating these values shall pay all taxes when he has only a small part of the land and the Indian shall pay none of the taxes when he has practically all of the land. 1 404 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. therefore favor for myself, and I speak for none but myself, that every tract of land in Indian Territory, homesteads and all, shall bear'its just burden of taxation, I am willing to concede that the homesteads should be free from taxation, but there should be an equivalent foi that abatement of taxes, and I think it would be only fair that the school properties, heretofore exclusively used for Indian purposes, should pass to the new State in consideration of the abatement of taxes upon the homesteads of the Indian people. Now these restrictions not only impair the development of this country, but they seriously affect the development of the new State. We are just about to go into a State government. We are about to be confronted with the necessity of building* section roads and bridges all over this country. Obviously the building of those section roads and bridges will increase the value of every acre of land. The high- ways develop and improve the land, and that benefit goes direct to the landholder. I submit, therefore, as a special element of justice in this case that the land should be taxed for its proportionate part of the expense of building roads and bridges and making the land itself more valuable. There is one other point that I think proper to submit to the com- mittee, and that is this, that under this system a bad method of gov- ernment necessarily follows — cannot be avoided. Here we have, for instance, the removal of restrictions. Under the present method the application is made to the Indian agent, and if it finally goes through at Washington, it goes through a file of clerks up there. The removals of restrictions are not published until a certain day down here, the idea being to publish them on a day certain so that all these land buyers on the ground can make a run after these boys who are turned free. That is very nice in theory, but the significant fact is that all of these people who have land to sell receive private and con- fidential solicitation to sell from somebody who has got an inside hold on it. Now, who is going to say how that happens? The application passes through a long file of clerks, and any one of them can give a Crivate tip. I don't know how it happens, and I don't care how it appens, and I don't feel disposed to blame any of the clerks for it. I don't care if they do take advantage of a bad form of government. What I am calling your attention to is that it is a bad system of gov- ernment, which it is your duty to correct. I am not complaining of individuals. I don't care anything about individuals and am not here complaining of individuals. I want to make a note for the purpose of the record to show that the extension of these restrictions is unlawful under the Constitution of the United States, violating the fifth amendment and the four- teenth amendment. Senator Brandegee. That is the Cherokee agreement? Mr. Owen. No; I am talking about the act of April 26, 1906. Senator Brandegee. Yes, and that Congress can not enlarge or extend it as they have attempted to do under the act of April 26. Mr. Owen. I don't think this committee will take issue with that proposition. Senator Teller. Well, we do not. Senator Brandegee. Congress has taken issue with it. Mr. Owen. Yes, we all know how Congress does things and we don't take it seriously. FIVE CIVIIjIZED TRIBES. 405 I want to call your attention to this proposition, that thirteen years have elasped since the Dawes Commission was established. Congress was going to allot these lands and give the Indian his liberty, and after thirteen years have passed the Interior Department has lobbied through Congress — the Interior Department has put this through Congress — extending these restrictions for twenty-nve years. I tiold the Interior Department responsible for the bad manage- ment of this country, and I wish to make a record of my protest against it on behalf of those who think as I do, that it is a bad method of gov- ernment. The chief desire of Congress has been nullified. This proposition of establishing the Dawes Commission for the purpose of devBloping the Indian and putting him upon his own responsibility and doing away with the tribal relation has been absolutely brought to naught by the constant advice of the employees of the Interior Department influencing the mind of the Secretary, and the Secretary, being the responsible head of the Department, influences Congress to pass this legislation. It comes back at last to the employees of the Interior Department who are concerned in extending and enlarg- ing their own authority. That is what it comes to, and that is what I want to make a record of. And I want to enter another protest against the Interior Depart- ment employees, and that is this: That no matter what the charac- ter of a man is who comes from this country, from the Chief of the Creeks down, no matter what his character is, when he goes up there taking issue with the enlargement of their authority and taking issue with this bad method of government, he is immediately accused of bein^ insincere and dishonest and in league With the indecent elements of this country. Against that I wish to enter my emphatic protest, and I wish to make a record here and now that the Department of the Interior is deliberately ignoring the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in the A,lbert Heff case, and, second, that no man from this country can be heard in Washington without their impugn- ing his motives. Now, I want to lay down, finally, these propositions : The Interior Department has no legal supervisory control of citizen Indians. The citizen Indian is not protected by these restrictions, but is injured. The home-builder and the farmer are injured by this system. The State is injured by this system. The grafter is benefited by this system. The employees of the Interior Department are benefited by this system; only the grafters and the employees of the Interior Depart- ment are benefited by this system. I know those men personally in the Department of the Interior, and I wish to say nothing to wound their feelings. I know them person- ally, and I Imow them well. I believe they are good-hearted men. I do not believe their purposes are bad, but they are misled by that element of human nature that always wants to rule somebody else and always wants to enlarge its authority when charged with the responsibility of government. That is another human frailty, and it is exemplified in the most distinguished manner by the Interior Department. ■ I shall be pleased to answer to the best of my ability any questions which you gentlemen may desire to ask. 406 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Bbandegee. Why is it, in your opinion, that quite a num- ber of the full-blood Indians appear to want to keep the restric- tions on? Mr. Owen. I am glad you asked the question" The Indian is the most sentimental man in the world. The Indian is desirous, as we all are, of protecting the full blood. No man whose heart is good and whose sentiments are humane would withdraw protection from the full-blood Indian if he could. If he could control the matter, he would protect him. Our full-blood Indians, many of them, believe that this alleged protection really protects. I think to a limited extent it does — in this, that it prevents some of the full bloods from selling and it prevents some buying that otherwise might take place. To that limited extent it does. But before this matter closes there will not be a single person who ought to be protected as a matter of sentiment who will be protected as a matter of fact. Now, they refused a day or two ago in the Creek coimcil to pass a resolution introduced there for the removal of restrictions. I am satisfied that it was done under a burst of sentiment ; that they did not want their people to lose the protection of the Government. They don't under- stand precisely how this works out. They feel that they would like to protect them if they could. So would I. But how are you going to protect them with this condition existing ? I lay these propositions before you, and you can not answer them in my humble judgment. You can not answer them. You are not going to protect the ignorant man, because he can sell his equitable estate, and though he doesn't give good title you still can not protect him by these laws. Senator Bbandegee. But I want to know what influenced these full-bloods. Mr. Owen. The sentimental feeling, and I sympathize with them in that. Senator Long. Does the desire to be free from taxation enter into it? Mr. Owen. I have heard that that cuts some figure, but I think they desire to protect their people, and they think the system does protect. Senator Long. As a practical matter, what legislation would you suggest on the subject of restrictions ? Mr. Owen. I suggest the removal of all the restrictions except on the full-blood homesteads, removing the restrictions even on the homesteads of half-breeds, whites, and negroes. Senator Long. The full blood now can not get his restrictions removed if the act of April 26 is valid, under any circumstances. What amendment would you suggest as to that? Mr. Owen. I would eliminate it. Senator Teller. You would repeal it ? Senator Long. Would you leave it to any tribunal to judge of the competency of the man to have his restrictions removed? Mr. Owen. I would not. I don't think he is under any personal restrictions, and I don't think you can put him under any. Senator Long. Your theory is- that under the agreement which was ratified by vote of the Cherokee people after five years everybody, full bloods and all could alienate their lands, with the exception of homesteads ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 407 Mr. Owen. Yes, sir; and sell the equity before the five years expired. Senator Long. That five-year period will soon expire. You believe that Congress can not by subsequent legislation without the consent of the individual Indian enlarge or extend that period of restriction? Mr. Owen. I take the ground that they could not extend the restrictions and that therie are no personal restrictions, in the first place, on the Indian. Senator Long. No personal restrictions ? Mr. Owen. No personal restrictions. The restrictions in regard to the sale of the land being in the agreement cannot be modified except with the consent of both parties to the agreement. You will under- stand inore clearly my view of it by supposing, for instance, that I had a limited legal estate in St. Louis; that my vendor put a condi- tion on me that I should not sell the estate that I had from him for five years. I could sell my equitable estate. I could not divest myself of the legal title for five years, as a matter of law, but I could sell my equitable estate, and I would hold the legal title as trustee for my equitable vendee. And I hold that these so-called restrictions are not personal restrictions at all ; that Congress has no right to impose personal restrictions upon these people by the act of 1902; that the Cherokee Nation much less has the right to impose restrictions upon these individuals. They are under no personal incompetency. The only personal incompetency known to our Constitution is that a man shall be non compos mentis or shall be a minor, and you can not by act of Congress take away from him his personal liberties. The people of this country have the same rights, privileges, and immunities as other United States citizens, and the word "immunity" in the United States Constitution has a significance that Congress must observe. Immunity means that a man is protected against this very kind of thing; otherwise under the name of "protection" Congress could take my estate. I do not want to be "protected:" I want Congress to keep its hands off of me and off of my estate, and I think that that is almost the universal opinion of the people of this country. I would just like to have this committee before it adjourns these meetings take the voice of the people who are present — have them raise theiir hands on this question and see how many want to be governed by the Inte- rior Department. Senator Long. I believe you say that that "voice" has already been taken ? Mr. Owen. It has been taken. With the permission of the com- mittee I desire to submit as an exhibit resolutions passed at a general convention of the people of Indian Territory assembled at Okmulgee, Ind. Ter., on January 19, 1904, adopted by a unanimous vote. I will not take the tiine to read it, because your time is precious. The Chairman. What is it, Mr. Owen? Mr. Owen. It relates to the removal of restrictions and the vote that was taken in connection with it, the vote of the leading citizens of this country, and the evidence in connection therewith, which was taken upon these conditions. Hon. E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary ofthelnterior, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: The undersigned having been appointed by the Chamber of Commerce of the city of Muskogee, Ind. T., to act in conjunction with representative citizens of all the other towns and localities in the Indian Territory, to the end that we may secure 408 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. the passage of such laws by Congress and the promulgation of such rules by you as will result in the removal of the restrictions upon the sale or lease of lands by allottees in this Territory (other than the homestead), and for the general welfare and advance- ment of all the citizens of the Territory. Acting under the above authority of our fellow citizens, believing that yourself and the Congress of the United States desire to administer the affairs of this Territory and govern it solely with a view to the best interests of the Territory and all its citizens, we, as such committee, desire to prepare and submit the proofs of existing conditions, and to submit, for the consideration of yourself and of Congress, such suggestions as the citi- zens believe would benefit the people of this Territory of all classes, and best prepare the people and the lands of this country for the maintenance of the necessary expense of self-government as contemplated by Congress in the legislation of the last ten years. The plan appi'oved for obtaining this information will be by talking the deposition, under oath, of various persons in all the localities of the Territory, using care to obtain the testimony only of persons of good standing, of unquestioned veracity, and whose surroundings have been such as to qualify them to testify intelligently. The taking of this testimony will begin at the rooms of the Chamber of Commerce, in the city of Muslcogee, at 10 o'cloclc a. m. on the 7th day of January, 1904, and will invite like testimony from other places until we are satisfied that a thorough hearing has been had, to the end that by unquestioned evidence the true conditions and needs > of the Territory are truthfully set forth. This taking of testimony will be public and impartial. We respectfully ask that you designate a representative to attend these sessions, question any of the witnesses as he may desire, introduce any other witnesses of his own selection, subject to his examination and ours, to the end that he and ourselves may, by joint effort, elicit the most thorough and correct information. We pledge to you our best efforts to present the most reliable testimony obtpinable, to the end, only, that the truth may be known. That earnest prayer to the Secretary of the Interior to take the tes- timony with regard to these conditions was ignored, and we were com- pelled to take the testimony without any representative of the Depart- ment being present, but we at least discharged our duty in seeking the presence of a representative of the Interior Department and the cross- examination of witnesses. Senator Teller. Did you furnish them a copy of the testimony? Mr. Owen. Yes, sir; and we furnished Congress a copy of it, and Congress was sufficiently impressed with it to remove the restrictions off uie negroes and the whites, but the Interior Department, being extremely anxious " to protect the Indian," ended it there. Now, I am anxious to present this matter as completely as possible and not to omit anything that ought to be presented to the com- mittee. If there are any other questions at all, either upon the law or the facts, I will be glad to answer them. Senator Teller. You said you thought steps were being taken, as I understood it, with reference to the extension of the yjars of limita- tion. Is that a siiit in court ? Mr. Owen. Yes, sir; there are three suits in court. Senator Teller. What court are they in ? Mr. Owen. There are three injunction suits against the Secretary of the Interior in the courts of the District of Columbia, with an a^ee- ment to take the case as promptly as possible to the Supreme Court of the United States. Senator Teller. Of course you know that no member of this com- mittee voted for that amendment. I want to defend the committee to that extent. Mr. Owen. Yes, sir; I know that. Senator Teller. I do not want to be responsible for everything that Congress does. FIVE CIVILIZJSD TlilBES. 409 Senator Beandegee. I was going to ask if all the Indian lands were thrown open to taxation Mr. Owen. No, sir. Senator Beandegee. I say, assuming that they all were thrown open and taxed and increased quite rapidly in value, as you think they would under the free competition that would then ensue, I suppose these Indians are not rich m ready money, but more in land, and that therefore after a few years they might have to sell a portion of their land to get the money to pay the taxes on the increased valuation and use the balance to improve the remainder of their land. Mr. Owen. They would not have to do that if people were invited into this country, because they would have the land cultivated by tenantry, and it would not only bring enough to pay the taxes, but furnish a good income besides. Even the land that is called common is of value. It is a mistake to underestimate its value. Land said to be worth fifty cents and a dollar an acre would be worth a great deal more if conditions were made reasonable and proper in this country. At present it is very diJB&cult to get a suitable class of tenantry, because these home seekers' excursions simply go through here and nobody gets off. They have been told that titles were so mixed up here that they are unsafe, and that is enough to deter them. If they came down here and saw this book of rules and regulations that would finish them. Senator Beandegee. You think these societies for the protection of the Indians and the newspapers and the other people who are agi- tating in favor of keeping the restrictions on the Indians are entirely mistaken in their policy ? Mr. Owen. I know they are entireljr mistaken in their policy. They are mischief-makers who are our friends. I thank you, gentlemen, for the courtesy and patience with which you have heard my views. STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN R. THOMAS, OF MUSKOGEE, IND. T. Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee: I shall not occupy much of your time. My name is John R. Thomas, I am 60 years of age, and by profession a lawyer. I have resided in the Indian Terri- tory nine years since the 5th day of last July, and my post-office address is Muskogee, Indian Territory. By Senator Long: Q. What official position did you occupy here in the Indian Terri- tory ? — A. I was Judge of the United States court for the Indian Terri- to^. Q. For how long? — ^A. Four years. Q. What official position did you occupy prior to coming to the Indian Territory? — A. I had occupied various official positions. I had been prosecuting attorney in Illinois for ten years, a member of Congress from the State of Illinois, and I had filled other official posi- tions both at home and abroad. While a member of Congress, going to Washington fresh from the people, I felt quite competent to pass upon most of the questions which were presented to the House. I had not been there long until I questioned very seriously whether I was prepared and qualified to S. Rep. 501. n, .59-2. pt 1 27 410 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. pass upon any question which came before the House. It became my official duty, of course, to cast my vote for or against measures which were brought before the House touching the Indian Territory, and I voted, as most of us did, as a rule, as the committee suggested for I soon learned that this was an age of specialties and that a man could only know one thing or one branch of the public service, and know it well, even though he devoted all his energies to it. So we had to rely on the reports of conunittees as a rule, and I cast my vote with about as much intelligence as the average member of Congress does, and as some Senators do. I knew practically nothing of the Indian Territory when I came here, except a superficial knowledge gained in passing through in 1875. In my peregrinations after passing through here the happy memory always remained with me that it was the most beautiful country on earth. I came here in 1897, and the next day after my arrival I declared publicly that I intended to become a citizen of the Indian Territory. There has been a great metamorphosis since then. There were scarcely 1,200 people in the city of Muskogee when I came here. There was not a man within its limits who owned an inch of ground. It all belonged to the Creek tribe of Indians. Wewerecom- Eelled to have homes, inasmuch as we were not a nomadic people, and ad been in the habit of living in houses, and we found some Indian who was in possession of a piece of land, and bought what was known as the possessory right, the right to occupy the land, and upon that sort of a title the great city of Muskogee was built, and the great cities and towns of the Indian Territory have grown up upon that founda- tion, feeling confident that there were certain laws of nature and eco- nomics which would finally bring, as a matter of necessity, the nations and the tribes of Indians to a recognition of the propriety of alienating the title so that men might become possessed of a fee simple title to the land. There has never been a country under God's sunshine that has grown up under such trying times, such tribulations, as the Indian Territory. There never has been a people so handicapped as the active, careful, enterprising people of this country have been handicapped, not only by the laws passed by Congress, but by the regulations of the Interior Department. I remember once while abroad going into one of those old mazes, those wonderful endless Euzzles, and we were trying for over an hour to get out, and I remem- er with what consternation I contemplated the fact that an intelli- gent human being could get within a small compass into paths so intricate that with all his intelligence and experience, his woodscraft and all that, he could not get out of it. But that was as simple as ABC compared to the labyrinths and mazes through which the feet of these people have been treading for the last nine or ten years. I am not going to make much of a talk, but just give a few views that have forced themselves upon me. In spite of all the deterrent influences of law and rules and regulations, this country has grown to be a great country, and still, gentlemen, we have found ourselves like Sisyphus, rolling the stone up with a limitless energy, to find the Inte- rior Department and Congress rolling the stone back on us. How- ever, we have gained something, and we will work out our salvation, even without your help, since we have a just God above us, a Consti- tution which protects our rights, and a Supreme Court which will properly interpret the laws. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 411 There is no such thing as a personal disability on these Indians. They are American citizens by birth, and entitled to all the rights and privileges of American citizenship by reason of their being native born citizens. I lay that down as a fundamental proposition, which can not be overturned. Mr. Owen. Under the fourteenth amendment ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; but in addition to that they have by the solemn voice of the law-making power of this coimtry been declared citizens of the United States, entitled to all the rights and privileges and immunities of American citizens, and they stand up in all the panoply and glory of American citizenship, whether they be white, or red, or black. But Congress has attempted to do several things, and sometimes things occur in Congress, as you gentlemen know, in spite of the recom- mendations of gentlemen who know best about the matter. Some- times the committee is overridden. Outside influences have worked upon the general membership of the House and the Senate until finally the tide becomes strong enough to cause the House and the Senate, or the House or the Senate, to ride roughshod over the com- mittee, as was done, I understand, in this act of April 26, 1906. One of you gentlemen asked a question of Colonel Owen. He may have answered it before I came in. If so, I didn't hear it, and I beg leave to make answer to the question as to why some of these full- blood Indians desire the restrictions to remain on their land, because the restrictions apply to the land alone and not to the individual. An Indian can sell his horse or his wagon or his cow or his wheat, and there is no pretense that the law has any power to prevent it; but since he took the land with the limitations upon it which Congress and the nation had a right to impose it became a vested right in nim, and Congress can not rob him or those rights or change the rules by which he is to be governed. He took this land under the agreement that he should not have the right to sell or incumber the land for five years. He was a free American citizen in everything except that there was this burden placed upon his land. The Indians were the owners of this land in fee simple, subject alone to the sovereignty of the United States. They said, "We will take this land under that agreement," and they so took it, and the title became vested in them subject to this simple disability or restriction on alienation and incum- brance. Now on the 26th of April Congress came along and said that a full-blood Indian should not alienate his land for twenty-five years. Well, gentlemen, if they had solemnly declared, as our distinguished ex-President Pierce said, in the presence of the whole world and the rest of mankind, that the sea should not go beyond a certain boimdary along the low-lying coast, it would probably have been just as effective legally as this declaration on the part of Congress that after five years these Indians should not have the right to sell their land. But you asked the reason why some of the lull bloods were anxious to have the restrictions remain, and it is this: The full bloods, almost without exception, were opposed to the allotment of their lands ; the breaking up of their tribal laws. They wanted to hold it as their fathers and^ their grandfathers and their great-grandfathers had held it, but finally under pressure they were compelled to enter into these aOTeements. ' If anybody imagines that it was through the free will of these nations that these agreements were entered into, they are 412 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. people who have come here since or else are too blind to recognize a fact when they see it. They made these agreements because they had to, and they said, "All right, if we are compelled to do this we will do it. Now you do your part," and ever since then Congress and the Interior Department have been working and scheming and hunt- ing means by which they could get out of the complication and still tie up the Indian. Now, Mr. Owen has told you why. He has made his explanation of it. You will remember, gentlemen, the great effort that was made for the establishment of the com-t of chancery in Eng- land ; how it began with a very small beginning by those who were unable to obtain redress under the common law applying to the con- science of the King, as he had all power and could do right — in spite of the rules of the common law he could do equity. Finally, as popu- lation grew and interest multiplied, it became necessary to appoint a chancellor. And so the powers and jurisdiction of the court of chan- cery grew like a great snowball running downhill, and you will remem- ber it almost resulted in a war in GreatBritain — the tight between the common law com-ts and the courts of chancery. And while the powers of the courts of chancery expanded and are constantly expanding under the necessities of civilization, it has been but a pigmy compared to the rule of geometrical progression by which the Interior Depart- ment has piled up obstacles in the pathway of civilization and the development of the Indians. Only a few old-time full bloods object to having the restrictions removed, and they object to it simply because they do not understand the msiduous force of the conscience- less enemies who are cutting the dirt from under their feet. They have no conception of the guile, the insidious influences, the malign influences, that are working against them under the pretense of working for them. You were asking if these Indian rights asso- ciations, and so on, were doing good. That was a pat answer made by the Colonel. They know as much about the condition of the Indian here, and the conditions in Indian Territory, as you knew, Senator Brandegee, in Connecticut, even after the Senatorial toga fell on your shoulders. They know as much about it as you knew, Senator Long, even though you live on the borders of this Territory. They know as much about it as you did. Senator Clark, before you came on this committee and investigated it. You see, those people are under the impression that an Indian is an Indian, and that it does not make any difference whether he is a Creek, a Seminole, a Choctaw, a Chickasaw, a Cherokee, a Sioux, a Comanche, or what. They forget the fact, if they ever knew it, that for more than one hundred years the Five Civilized Tribes have been Christian tribes of Indians, have been civi- lized tribes of Indians, have builded schools here that have cost hun- dreds of thousands of dollars for the education of their children, male and female, for the purpose of fitting them for the responsibilities and duties of American citizenship. They are not aware of the fact that we have here in Indian Territory, and living in Muskogee, Indians who are graduates of the highest universities in this country and abroad, men who are able to meet their fellow-men in whatever walk of life it be as their full equals. Now, of course, one of our brightest specimens, who is least competent, probably, to take care of himself, is our distinguished friend. Col. Robert L. Owen, and I fancy that no man, certainly no one who knows him, will question his ability to look out FIVE CniLIZElJ TRIBES. 413 for his own and as much of other jjeoples as he will find an opportunity to, properly. You asked the question here, Do you tliink that the restrictions should be removed off of these lands ?' Yes, by all means. Will you stand in the way of the great car of progress ? ~ Will you shut off the springtime of growth, the summer of bloom, and the autumn of harvest and of the ripe fruit? Will you stand in the way of the mighty tide that is pushing this co entry forward? In tne first place, there never was any reason why there should have been restrictions placed upon the lands of the negroes. Everybody knows, who has studied the question at all, that the negroes had no right to this land. Everybody knows that they became part owners of this land simply by force that was applied at the time of^the making of the treaty of 1866, and there was just as much justice in it as there would have been if the Government had compelled the slave owners of Texas and Arkansas and Mississippi and Louisiana to have divided their lands with the negroes. But the fact that they were made part and parcel of the nation and given lands did not make them Indians, and there is no obligation resting upon the Government to treat them as though they were children and as though they were wards of the Government. There is no earthly reason why that should have been done, and there is no common sense in retaining restrictions on these lands of the colored people in any of the Five Tribes. They ought to have removed the whole business. And as to the Indians, as to all except full bloods, restrictions should be removed from the land completely. There may be a few instances in which an Indian is not able to take care of himself, but as a rule you will find that about 99 per cent of them are able to shinny on their own side and take care of the white man likewise. You go out and try to trade with one, and see— his senses are as alert and acute as the senses of the shrewdest trader on earth. Senator Beandegee. Why do you except the full bloods ? Mr. Thomas. Well, sir; I except them as a sop to Cerberus. We can not expect, sir, to get all that should be done. Senator Beandegee. But you think they ought to be taken off? Mr. Thomas. I think as a matter of right that the restrictions should be entirely removed; it would be the best thing that ever happened; it would be a saving to the Government annually of immense amounts paid in salaries to the working force, and in other ways; if these people were simply dropped into swimming water they would swim all right. Senator Beandegee. The full-bloods too ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; the full-bloods too. Now look at this sit- uation. You take the case — and I could give you a dozen cases like it — of a girl by the name of Mary Trent. The Dawes Commission refused enrollment to her mother and the children, an(i the case went up three different times before it was finally settled, and involved a very large expenditure of money, but they secured their citizenship ; there are nine in the family; the grandfather was practically a full- blood, or was a half-breed, I should say. They were finally enrolled as Indians by blood of the Creek Nation. Mary Trent is a colored girl who has one-eighth Indian blood; she can neither read nor write; she has not a cent of money on earth; the only means she has of 414 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. making a living is to go and work in the kitchens of people around town or go into the cotton field and pick cotton. She owns as her allotment 160 acres of as good land as there is in the Indian Territory, up here west of Okmulgee. It is in the timber. She can not clear the land — she has not a cent of money to hire anybody to clear the land for her; she can not fence the land, and she has no money to buy the wire with which to fence it; she can not break up the land, for she has neither horses nor plows, nor money with which to hire men or horses or plows to do it. Mr. Owen. And a five-year lease will not do it. Mr. Thomas. A five-year lease will not do it, and she could'nt make that without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, because she is em-olled as an Indian by blood, although she is only one-eighth Indian. Now, that poor girl has never been able to get one cent out of her land and will not be for the next ten years, although it is rich bottom land, because she cannot sell, although she has made applica- tion to sell 80 acres of her land in order that she might have something to live on and improve the other 80. But the Department said no. Why? Why, because she is enrolled as an Indian, and she is only one-eighth Indian. Now, take the case of Sillen Bighead, a full-blood Indian woman, who lived out here at Okmulgee and left one child, little Sam. Sam has his own allotment, he has Sillen's allotment, he has the allotment of Sampson Bighead, his father, and he has half of his grandmother's allotment and half of his grandfather's allotment, and he is living on the charity of Sulphur Harjo, a full-blood Presbyterian minister out here, without a cent of money to buy bread or clothes. The Chairman. How old is he ? Mr. Thomas. Eight years old. He can not rent his land, he can not lease his land, he can not sell his land ; he can only, with the pa- tient stoicism of the Indians, old and young, sit and starve with a prince's estate belonging to him. And I could go on and give many illustrations of that kind. It was asked yesterday whether the sale of this land should not be put into some hands with authority so that- it could in cases of necessity be disposed of, as in the case of Mary Trent. Why, of course. The Indians can not sell their land, and the courts can not order the sale of the land or any part of it, and the Indians can not lease it under the order of the court. Why? Because it has to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, and maybe a whole crop year will pass from the time it is sent up until it is heard from again. The laws governing United States citizens should apply, and the judges of the courts are the proper persons to determine when land should be sold for the support of the Indians; and if those Indians are incompetents, or it is claimed they are, then let them go into a court of competent jurisdiction and establish their competency and have it declared by the judgment of the court. That will put it be- yond question. "That protects the alleged incompetent — ^but every- body knows that nine hundred and ninety-nine out of every thou- sand of these Indians are no more incompetent than many white men who regard themselves as bright in this world. They are not incom- petent legallv, as Colonel Owen has explained, and as you gentlemen know. They are not incompetent, they are simply chained by the laws and bv the rules and regulations of the Interior Department and FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 415 are held helpless prisoners, although native-born citizens, and citizens of the United States at that, simply because their color is red. As a judge of the United States court, holding court in all of the five tribes, I had opportunity to observe these things, and I have spoken to you frankly and freely as to what I have observed. When I came here, gentlemen, this land was rated at $2.50 an acre. The first piece of land that was developed and sold after this city had been built — in spite of the burdens resting upon us, in spite of our not being able to own a foot of the land, this great city had been built here — and that land sold for $50 an acre; it was 4 or 5 miles to the west, |ind $50 an acre it brought in cash. Now, do you suppose it was the Indians that made it that valuable? Is any one simple enough to suppose it was because it was Indian land ? We know God has been good to this country. The action of the white men drove the Indians away from their native home and sent them out of that part of the United States known as the Great American Desert, and supposed to be only good for coyotes, rattlesnakes, and wild Indians to five in, and they came where it is seen that God is good, and that he holds the hearts of his red children in the hollow of his hand the same as he does the hearts of his white children. He led them along that long pathway to this veritable paradise, to this country, of which no tongue or pen can describe the fertility of its soil, a land that is beyond all others in its natural resources, a land that is rich in oil, copper, iron, manganese, coal, asphaltum, in marble, and in granite; all the building-stones of the finest possible quality are to be found here. There is no other country under God's heaven that is so blessed as this and at the same time so cursed as is this country to-day. Blessed by God and cursed by man. Cursed in this, that the natural aptitude and energies of this people have not been given fair play or a fair opportunity. But whatever may be the condition which assails us, whatever obstacles may confront us, this people — gentlemen, you see them here — this people will triumph, and will make this a garden of golden prosperity. But we think we have the right to ask the rep- resentatives of the people that they correct this great wrong and that they do us justice, and when I say us, I mean not only the Indians, but the whites. Give us a fair show for our white alley, that is all we ask. Give us a fair show for our white alley, and at the same time while you are protecting the Indian don't protect him to the point of starvation and death, don't, while pretending to guard him, rob him of the income from his land, upon which he can live and by which he can improve the balance of his land. I thank you. Senator Bkandegee : We hear it said in Congress, and generally through the East, that the Indian is naturally reckless and improvi- dent, and being poor, except in the ownership of land, and inexperi- enced in business, that if he had the power to sell without restriction he could not resist the temptation to sell all his land at once for what- ever was offered him and then become a pauper in the community. Now, for the purpose of having it in the record, sir, and you having held court in every one of these tribes, I wish you would state what, in your judgment, would be the procedure of these Indians if they had the power of sale, and whether they would get rid of their lands, and whether they would improAddently use the proceeds of sale, as a general rule. 416 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. Thomas. I have been something of a student of this question here, have observed the Indians closely, and have been their friend, and my judgment, soberly arrived at and conscientiously given, is that there are about from 85,000 to 90,000 Indians Mr. Owen. Including the freedmen and the intermarried whites. Mr. Thomas. I do not remember the number of Indians. The Chairman. Twenty-four thousand. Mr. Thomas. Full-bloods, yes. Senator Brandegee. I mean particularly as to the full-bloods. Mr. Thomas. And I think it is safe to say that 24,000 of the average inhabitants of Kansas are no better able to take care of themselves than these 24,000 Indians are. It is true that you will find improvi- dent individuals among the Indians as well as among white men. The Senator will remember the time when the sooners came upon the plains of Kansas and stopped hardly long enough to untie the chickens at night, and some man came along and bought for a song the site of Emporia and bought lands around there at a little advance over nominal prices that are to-daj'' worth hundreds and thousands of dol- lars an acre. Now, it will be just the same way here. You will find some improvident Indians who will sell all the land they can, and they will do just as the whites did — they will spend the money. Lots of them will do that, and lots of them will take care of it, and by far the largest number will take care of their property and handle it dis- creetly and properly. Of course, they have not got all the cunning and learning of the white man in commercial transactions, but the Indian knows how to take care of his money. There is no people in the world where a husband loves his wife more; there is no people on earth that will go further for the protection of their family than will these same Indians, whether they be Creeks, Seminoles, Choctaws, Chickasaws, Cherokees, Comanches, Sioux, or others. Senator Brandegee. Most of these full bloods who live on the land are farmers, are they not? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. And although they are ignorant of our busi- ness methods, would they not know this : That if they sold their farms it would be pretty difficult for them to establish themselves in any other vocation of life? Mr. Thomas. I do not know whether I am able to answer that ques- tion or not. I can not look into the hearts or minds of these Indians and understand their mental processes. I only know that those of them who have had an opportunity have done well as a rule, except the ne'er-do-weels, and there are as many of them among the ne^oes and the whites as you will find among the Indians, and an infinitely greater number, I believe. Mr. Owen. How long have they been self-supporting? Mr. Thomas. How much money has been paid to these Indians by the Government of the United States, except for the sale of their own property? Have any annuities been paid to them? Has the Gov- ernment treasury been depleted one dollar for the support of these Iijdians? No, sir; they have been working out their own salvation, making their own living, and maintaining their own homes and retain- ing their autonomy as long as they were allowed to by the Govern- ment of the United States. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 417 Senator Long. You and others have rather an exalted idea of the capacity of the Indian to protect himself in his business affairs. The Chaieman. And if that idea be true, how is it that so many of them, where the opportunity has been allowed, have sold their land at ruinously insufficient prices compared with its true value, as stated by Colonel Owen. Mr. Thomas. Very few of the Indians have done that. The negroes have, and the mixed bloods have, but there a^e very few Indians that have. The Chairman. That is, very few full bloods ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; very few of the full bloods have been improvident. Mr. MoTT. But has not the land of the full bloods been sold under the restrictions and rules imposed by the Secretary of the Interior, which is not true with reference to the negroes ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, that is true. As Colonel Owen says, govern- ment at long range is a very dangerous thing for the governed and a very comfortable thing for the governor. Now, we don't think that the Secretary of the Interior or the men under him are able to under- stand the conditions or appreciate the necessities here. I think it is safe to risk these Indians. If you will put upon them the responsi- bility and give them to understand that this is the last piece of prop- erty the}' have, they will take care of it as well as any white man will, in my opinion. There was one thing that was done by the act of April 26, 1906, that I think was the most diabolical piece of legislation that has ever been perpetrated on the people of the Indian Territory. Those of us who have lived here and observed know that hundreds and hundreds, and almost thousands, of the freedmen citizens of the Cherokee Nation, for instance, who upon filing upon their land were at once taken in hand by land speculators, land grabbers, and as soon as they had made selection oi their lands, and even before their certificate of selec- tion had been issued to them, sold their lands, their whole surplus, for $100, for S200, for $500, with the understanding that when they received their deeds and could properly convey the title they would be paid the balance. Congress comes in by this act and says that the nondelivery of the deed shall not work a forfeiture of the purchase. That is not the exact language, but it is the idea. In other words, that sales of land before the vendor had the title to sell should not be illegal by reason of the nondelivery of the deed. Now, each of you will doubtless remember that the Supreme Court of the United States said that when conditions were agreed upon, limitations placed upon land, that the allottee took the land subject to those liiriitations, and that the title did not pass until all of those requirements had been com- phed with. In the Creek Nation, for instance — Colonel Owen, will you turn to that provision that I speak of — well, you doubtless remember that the Supreme Court of the United States said that all the conditions must be complied with before the title passes. Now, in the Creek Nation, for instance, before there could be an allotment the Indian citizen must apply to the Dawes Commission and select his allotment and his homestead Senator Teller. Here is the provision : That conveyances heretofore made by members of any of the Five Civilized Tribes subsequent to the selection of allotment and subsequent to the removal of restriction, 418 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. where patents thereafter issue, shall not be deemed or held invalid solely because such conveyances were made prior to the issuance and recording or delivery of patent or deed; but this shall not be held or construed as affecting the validity or invalidity of any such conveyance, except as hereinabove provided; and every deed executed before, or for the making of which a contract or agreement was entered into before the removal of restrictions, be and the same is hereby declared void; Providedjlhai all lands upon which restrictions are removed shall be subject to taxation. Mx. Thomas. That is the provision, and you will remember that the Supreme Court of the United States held that all the conditions prece- dent must Mve been complied with before the title could pass. Now, upon the selection of land in the Creek Nation a certificate of selection was issued, showing that the Indian had selected that piece of land and that the Government of the United States had consented that he should have that piece of land as his allotment. Next, there had to be a deed issued by the principal chief of the Creek Nation ; also, that deed had to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, which was the grant by the United States of all the right, title, or interest it had in the land; then, that deed must be delivered by the prin- cipal chief, which was an acquittance by the Creek Nation, througli its princpal chief, of all the right, title, and interest in the land; and then it had to be accepted by the Indian, and by that he emblemat- ically relinquished all right to the other land of his nation. Then, and then for the first time, Ms title became perfect, and he was in condi- tion to sell it. But there was an act passed in April a year or two ago by which the restrictions on citizens who were not of Indian blood were removed. There had not been half of the lands allotted hardly up to that time, and as soon as these Indians and others who were citizens of the differ- ent nations came in and made their filing, even before they had received their certificates, they sold their land for pitiful sums — $100, $200, $500 — with the promise that when they got their deeds and could make a legal conveyance the balance would be paid. Now, through influences which were brought to bear upon Congress this act was passed, and now these purchasers at one-tenth of its value of almost hundreds of thousands of acres of land in the Indian Territory sit back and say to the allottees, "You go to thunder; Congress has fixed it ; I don't have to pay you the balance ; my title has been con- formed by act of Congress."' I think if there ever has been a great wrong perpetrated upon an innocent and unsuspecting people it was by that provision of law, and I think it ought to be rectified. I think it ought to be wiped out, and I think that where men have bought land under a contract to pay its value when a legal title should be made they should be put in a position where the allottee could compel them to do it. But there are lots of these ignorant people who think that that is all there is to it, that they are out, that that is all they are going to get, and so the unconscionable grafter and land speculator can sit back and laugh at their misery and their poverty. -It makes it possible to do just that thing, and if there is one thing on earth that cries to heaven for rectification it is that very act — and I hope to God you will rec- tify it. I hope you will do it. After a long course of litigation m many of these instances the parties by coming forward can have these conveyances set aside. They can only do that in a court of chancery, however, and most of them have not a cent of money. They can not bring forward the money and come into equity with FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 419 them. They do not know the diflference between a waranty deed and a quit-claim deed. They do not realize that under the warranty that is made, under the guarantees that are given in a warranty deed., the title, although not in the grantor at tne time, if subsequently acquired passes eo instanti to tne grantee. They ought to be given a chance to make these parties who bought their land for a trifle, for a song — they ought to be put in a position where they can compel these people to make payment, and pay what is just and right for the land. Senator Teller. Have you in your practice, since you retired from the bench, had anything to do with the securing of removal of restrictions ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; I have, sometimes with success and oftener with failure. I tried to have the restrictions removed in the Mary- Trent case, about which I told you. Senator Teller. You were her attorney in that case? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; and she set up in the petition all that I have told you, that she was poor, had not a cent in the world, and that she owned this land and had not a cent to improve it, and yet they said, "No, we can not." Now, by an arbitrary rule of the Secretary of the Interior there was a certain section of country in the Creek Nation that a circle was thrown around, and the Secretary said, " That is oil land; that is coal land; that is mineral land, and," the secretary said, "We will not remove the restrictions on that land no matter what the conditions maybe." Now, take the case of a. Cherokee woman, Lizzie Stover, she owned a piece of land up here near Ramona Mr. Owen. May I ask a question? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir. Mr. Owen. Was this line drawn around this supposed oil land with a view to the Interior Department getting some more laws passed tying it up ? Mr. Thomas. Why, of course; to continue the dominion over the land and keep it out of the hands of those men who would improve it, profitably alike to the Indian and the white man. There can not be any doubt about that, because Mary Trent's land is 20 miles from the nearest oil production. Senator Teller. And was her land included within that circle ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; and the nearest^ oil production was 20 miles away, and yet that poor girl, suffering almost for bread to live on, can not sell 40 acres of 80 acres of her land. Mr. Owen. Under that rule, could I get my restrictions removed? Mr. Thomas. I don't know. Colonel, but you are pretty resource- ful; but there is one thing I will say, if I know the man, you never will. Now, taking up the case of Lizzie Stover. She had a piece of land right near the town of Ramona. She was offered $400 bonus for an oil lease on the land. She did not like the man who made the offer, and she said, "No, I won'tlet you have it." Shortly afterwards another party came along, and said he would give $500 bonus. She said , ' ' You can have it; I will give you a lease on it." But during all the time that the thing had dragged along, with negotiations back and forth, and the question whether the lease would be approved or not—it dragged along four or five months — and in the meantime they drilled wells in the neighborhood and they were dry, and Lizzie Stover, by reason of 420 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. having no opportunities to sell or lease her land promptly, lost her $500, and to-day the land is worth $5 an acre. There are many cases of that kind — it has occm-red over andover again, because these citizens of the United States are unable to take advantage of the tide that comes in the affairs of men. Senator Long. I wish you would describe briefly the manner in which these restrictions are removed. Mr. Thomas. Well, take an illustration from the town of Boynton. That land was allotted to Benjamin Grayson, an infant. The father and mother are ignorant people, one a negro and the other, the mother, is part Indian. The allotment was made before the Ozark and Cher- okee Central Railroad was contemplated, or before at least it was laid out or built, but when it was determined to build that road it was determined by some enterprising citizens that this allotment of Ben- jamin Grayson was a good place to build a town. So, in absolute violation of law, and before any deed had been issued at all, certain deeds were taken from Pomp Grayson and his wife for this land. The town was laid out, and the property sold by the town promoters. Finally it was discovered that this conveyance had been made for a very small consideration, and suit was brought to set aside these deeds and to retain the land for the benefit of the heirs, as the treaty pro- vides. Well, that was fought, I believe, about three years, it went up to Washington and back several times, and finally, when denying the right of the heirs to the land, the Secretary held, under the pow- erful pressm'e brought to bear upon him, that he had the right to vacate this selection of an allotment, and have it made a Government town site, and it was done. Senator Teller. What did the allottee get ? IVIr. Thomas. He got 10 per cent of the value of the property when it was sold — the heirs got that — and the right to select another 160 acres. That was the compensation. The Chairman. And that must have been merely an act of grace, that 10 per cent. Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; it was an act of grace. The Chairman. There is nothing in the law imder which any pro- ceeding of this sort could take place ? Mr. Thomas. Oh, yes, sir; the law provides for it. Senator Brandegee. But when an Indian wants to get his restric- tions removed does he go personally before the Commissioner, or the agent, or does he go to a lawyer and have the lawyer get up the papers, etc. Can you explain that ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I can; but Indian Agent Kelsey can do it better. As a rule the applicant goes to a lawyer in whom he has confi- dence and says, I want to apply to have my restrictions removed. There are certain blanks furnished under the rules of the Department. He makes his application, giving his name, his age and residence, and the tribe to which he belongs and the lands which have been allotted to him. He is compelled to say what his education is, what business experience he has had, what amounts of money he has had, and what he has done with it. Senator Brandegee. This is his own statement in his application? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; then he goes before the Indian agent on a day fixed. Senator Long. Must he go before the agent here in Muskogee? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 421 Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; before the Indian agent. Senator Long. But suppose he lives in a remote part of the Chero- kee Nation, for instance ? Mr. Thomas. He comes right here. Well, recently there have been some changes in that respect, and officers have been sent out by the Indian agent to different parts of the Territory for the accommoda- tion of these people, but originally they all had to come here. Until a very recent time they all had to come to the Indian agent, or to the Dawes Commission if it were a town site. In those cases they had to apply to the Dawes Commission and set out the facts of their citizenship, their age, etc., that the land had been allotted to them, that it was contiguous to a certain town, and was needed for town-site purposes, and then to prove it Senator Long. He makes his application and then what ? Ml'. Thomas. Then he is notified of the time to appear and bring his witnesses to establish the matters set up in the petition. He brings in his witnesses to show all these matters that he has affirmatively set up in his petition. If it is a town-site case he has to go before the Commission Senator Long. Just an ordinary case of removal of restrictions? Mr. Thomas. Well, recently officers have been selected to go around Senator Long. What kied of an officer is that ? Mr. Thomas. One of the clerks in the Indian agent's office. A clerk in the agent's office. A man who is on the rolls as a clerk goes up there and hears the testimony and his stenographer takes it down. The Chairman. Well, go on from your petition; tell us what is done with it ? Mr. Thomas. Well, after the testimony is taken the clerk takes it and makes up the case and decides what recommendation should be made, and that is brought to the attention of the Indian agent, and theoretically Senator Long. That is the first time the Indian agent appears? Mr. Thomas. In some cases I have been before the Indian agent where he personally presided, and wherever it has been within his power to give his personal attention to it Mr. Kelsey has done so, and I think Colonel Shoenfelt, his predecessor, did the same thing; but the volume of business has been so great that it was hke the court of chancery — there had to be a chancellor appointed to take the place of the king, and there had to be a clerk appointed to take the place of the Indian agent. But the clerks take the case and make it up, and it goes before the Indian agent for his recommendation as to whether the restrictions should or should not be removed. Then it passes from him to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at Washing- ton, and there the clerks in that department, generally Mr. Ward or Mr. Henderson, under the supervision of Major Larrabee, or some of the other clerks there, they work the thing out, see what the evidence is and what the Indian agent has found, and if it commends itself to them Major Larrabee then signs it, or the Commissioner signs it, and then it goes to the Secretary of the Interior. Senator Long. And who goes over it there ? Mr. Thomas. I think Judge Smith is at the head of that. Senator Bbandegee. How many witnesses do they ordinarily require ? 422 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Thomas. Oh, usually two or three witnesses. Senator Bkandegee. I do not suppose the evidence of an individual whose restrictions have not been removed is competent, is it ? Mr. Thomas. Oh, certainly; the restrictions do not apply to the individual, but to the land. Senator Bkandegee. Yes, but I did not know whether the evi- dence of some one who has not had his own restrictions removed would be received as to the competency of another man. Mr. Thomas. Oh, yes, the rules regarding the admissibility of evi- dence are not yet dependent upon the question of the removal of restrictions. There is one thing I want to mention. Colonel Owen finds fault with the rule of the courts here that the Indian minors shall have guardians, and he holds it up as a wrong and holds himself up as an illustration — a man worth a hundred thousand dollars and with an only child. But can you point to a single State of the Union where that same rule does not apply to minors who are the owners of estates ? Mr. Owen. The point I made was that where the income from the child's estate was extremely small that that income ought not to be consumed by these expenses. I did not take the ground that the child with an estate worth while should not be under the provident care of the probate court. What I was talking about was the making of laws, and that we ought to have in this«country a probate law that would be economical for the man with a very small estate. The French law — they have what they call a court of pied poudre for the dusty-footed fellow that costs but a trifle to administer but a very small estate. Mr. Thomas. That is all right. We all hope and believe that in this day of great civilization the laws will be humanely and sensibly administered and the courts will not biu'den a nonproductive estate with costs and expenses unnecessarily. Under the treaty it is within the power of a judge to allow the natural guardian of the children to administer his child's estate, but experience has taught the judges of the courts here that in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the money that was derived from the minor's estate went into the common fund and was expended just as if it belonged to the father and mother, and there was no attention paid to the interests of the minor. Now, a judge of a court, acting conscientiously, can not afford to see that thing done and a child's estate wasted or misapplied, and therefore they require the appointment of a legal guardian. The Chairman. But in nearly all of these cases of removal of restrictions it is necessary for the applicant to employ an attorney? Mr. Thomas. Well, at least as a rule that is done. The Chairman. Now, assuming that to be true, which it undoubt- edly is, I want to ask you what is 'the ordinary legal charge for that service, or the ordinary fee that the lawyer receives, taking the case through from the time the application is made up until the final decision is reached by the Secretary ? Mr. Thomas. From $50 to $100, depending somewhat upon the value of the estate and the amount of work there may be. Senator Teller. And the character of the lawyer? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; that has a good deal to do with it, and upon the ease with which a client may be manipulated. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 423 The Chaieman. We have had some evidence in some of our hearings that this cost would sometimes run up to 11,500. Mr. Thomas. Well, there may have been instances of that nature, but I have not been one of the fortunate lawyers who received that sort of fees — and I am not a cheap lawyer, either. The Chairman. You fix the freight rate at what the traffic will bear ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; that is the very thing. Senator Long. And you say this evidence is taken and heard bv a clerk? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; at the present time; but that grows out of the fact that there is such a volume of business Senator Long. Yes, I understand. A clerk in his office hears this evidence. Now, in practice, in these cases, suppose the clerk decides that the restrictions ought not to be removed. Do you still carry the thing forward ? Mr. Thomas. Oh, certainly; you may do it if you want to; you may go before the Indian agent and argue against it. Senator Long. And then you can go before the Department ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; you can if you want to. Senator Long. But as a rule it is not done ? Mr. Thomas. No, sir; because the Indian has no money with which to pay you. Senator Long. Then the decision of the clerk generally is final in such cases ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; it amounts to that. The Indian agent looks into the case himself just as far as possible, but after all it is the opin- ion of the clerk that is approved or is not approved. - Senator Long. And if the opinion of the clerk is that the applicant should not have the restrictions removed, in most cases that ends it, does it ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; that judgment generally stands. Senator Long. Suppose the clerk decides in favor of the removal of the restrictions, that does not end it by any manner of means, does it ? Mr. Thomas. No, sir. Senator Long. You have known of cases where the opinion of the clerk was favorable and yet he has been overruled by the Indian agent. Where the Indian agent has decided favorably, does that end it ? Mr. Thomas. Well, sir, of course it goes up to the Department, but the fact is that if a decision is favorable here it is usually favorable above. I think the Indian agent conscientiously looks into a case before he puts his name to a decision, and in most instances he looks at the evidence carefully, every word of it ; but as a rule he does not meet many of the applicants face to face. Senator Long. How long does it take usually after the Indian agent gets through with a case here before the Secretary gets through with it up there ? Mr. Thomas. I have known instances where a case has gone through in as short a time as three months, and I have known an instance where the matter has been pending for two years and a half. Senator Teller. And I will ventiire to say that the Secretary of the Interior has never heard of the case yet. Mr. Thomas. Why, of course not. 424 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. What I am trying to find out is, whose mind it is that finally makes that judgment. Senator Teller. Let me tell you. It is the clerk here with the assistance of the Indian agent, and if he is as industrious as they say he is here, he is an exception. When it goes up to the Interior Depart- ment, the Commissioner never looks at it, and does not know anything about it, and signs his name to what some clerk says. When it goes into the Interior Department, the Secretary of the Interior, owing to the amount of business, could no more look into all these cases than a Sen- ator, with all his duties, could. He does not try to look at them. The Secretary will sign 500 kinds of papers in an afternoon that he can not look at. It is a clerk here, and a clerk there, and a clerk in the Secretary's ofiice that settle the whole business. Mr. Thomas. It was because of your intimate knowledge, sir, hav- ing been Secretary of the Interior, and because of my knowledge, hav- ing been in Congress, that when I heard you were coming here I said, "Thank God, there is a man who knows all about it." It would be a work of supererogation for me to state that condition which has been set forth here clearer than I could do it by the late Secretary of the Interior. Senator Long. Of course, the full blood can not have his restrictions removed at all now. Mr. Thomas. Not unless his land is needed for town site purposes. Senator Long. You have been on the bench and know the proce- dure here in the courts. In your opinion, could a judge on the bench be better trusted with inquiring into the qualifications of an applicant to have his restrictions removed, than this clerk under the Indian agent ? Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; because we have crystallized systems of judicature, we have regular forms which have come dovra. for ages- machinery by which we work by exact rules — and a judgment when rendered is a finality. True, it may be appealed from, but I mean the judgment of the court of last resort; and where it is determined by legal process, under the Constitution and the law, it is infinitely safer than it can be in the hands of any clerk. I don't care whether he is a lawyer or not. It is very much better to put it in charge of the judi- cial branch than the executive branch. The committee at 12 o'clock noon took a recess till 2 p. m., when it reassembled. Friday, November 16, 1906. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Chairman (to Governor Porter of the Creek Nation). Gov- ernor, the committee have asked you to come before them, seeking to get your individual views and the views of your people as to matters m which you may be interested, and with special reference this after- noon to the matter of alienation of lands. If you have any informa- tion that you can impart on that subject we would be glad to receive it, or to hear auythiag that you wish to present. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 425 STATEMENT OF GOVERNOR PLEASANT PORTER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, the Creek Council was aware of your coming and they thought that they ha^ better define what they beUeved to be the wishes of their people with respect to, first, this matter of the alienation of lands, and some further subjects which they deemed would be for the betterment of their condition, of a remedial character — that is, to present views on different subjects touching their interests, for the consideration of your committee. The council appointed the gentlemen here, Mr. Davis, speaker of the House of Warriors, and the chairman or president of the House of Kings, who is not present; Mr. Johnson here especially representing the colored people, as well as a general character of representation, Mr. George Cosa, a member of the House of Kings, and Mr. Sam Haynes, a member of the House of Warriors, and Mr. Lands, who is not present. I would like to ask the indulgence of the committee to this extent, that they permit each one of these gentlemen in their own way to answer questions or make statements that any member of the committee would like them to make. In that way you get, per- haps, a broader view of the opinions of the Creek people with regard to the matters you wish to hear about. Senator Long. When was this committee appointed ? Governor Pokter. At the last Council, this last month. I think it would be well first to hear Mr. Cosa make a statement, and I think Mr. Grayson can interpret, can you not, Mr. Grayson ? Mr. Grayson. Yes. Governor Porter. Mr. Cosa is a full-blood Indian and is closer to those who dissent from the general matter of allotment. I would like him to speak to you first. The Chairman. The committee will welcome any course of proce- dure that you think best, Governor. STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE COSA, A FULL -BLOOD CREEK INDIAN, AND MEMBER OF THE TIPPER HOUSE OF THE CREEK COUNCIL. Mr. Cosa made his statement through an interpreter, Mr. G. W. Grayson. The Chairman. Give the post-ofiice address and nationality of Mr. Cosa. The Interpreter. His post-office address is Eufaula, Ind. T. He is a full-blood Creek Indian and a member of the upper house. The Chairman. Ask him to make any statement that he wishes to present to the committee. The Interpreter (translating) . "I wish to make to this august body just a few remarks. I only wish to touch upon one point in what I wish to say at this time. The full-blood Creek peoplehave heard that the Congress of the United States has enacted a law whereby the full- blood Indian is prohibited from the sale of any of his land for twenty- five years, and also is not to be taxed for that length of time. If this has actually occurred, then it is true, gentlemen of the committee, that the large majority of the full-blood people are satisfied with that piece of legislation. Some of our people are disposed to think that this is only a make-believe, and that even if you have enacted such a law you probably do not intend to carry it out fully as written, but S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 28 426 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. for myself and quite a large proportion of our people, the full bloods, we are disposed to believe that so intelligent and great a people as you are would not do a thing of that sort simply to make them feel good when you did iiot mean to do what your law seems to intend. "The reason that they are satisfied with that legislation arises from the fact that they believe that they are not competent to cope with the intelligence of the white man and that ways and means will be devised, if the bars are all thrown down, whereby the lands of the full-blood Indians will be taken away from them by the white people, and that would be very bad for our people. They say that this legis- lation of Congress seems, however, to be in keeping with the spirit of the first overtures that were made by the officials of the Government, whereby the Indians were told: If you will consent I will come in and will sectionize your country and individualize your country, and when so individualized you will be able to hold and enjoy the benefits of your lands. On that particular point that is all I have to say at this time." Senator Brandegee. I would like to ask him whether, when he says that they fear that their lands will be taken away from them owing to the superior intelligence of the white people, he means that the land owners of the full blood are not intelligent enough to under- stand the value of their lands? The Interpreter. He says that that is just what he means; that the people do not fully understand the value of landed property. Senator Long. How many full-blood Creeks are there ? The Interpreter. "I do not know. I do not think that the Colonel knows any more about it than I do. I think perhaps 11,000 or 12,000." Senator Long. And how many mixed bloods? Governor Porter. You can get that information from the Dawes Commission record. Mr. Kelsey. I think 7,000 or 8,000 or between those numbers. Senator Long. Full bloods ? Mr. Kelsey. Yes. Senator Long. About how many mixed bloods ? Governor Porter. About 2,000. The negroes constitute about 5,000 and over. Senator Long. So there are about as many full bloods as there are mixed bloods and freedmen? Governor Porter. Yes. Senator Long. Ask him whether he understands that under the law passed by Congress there is now no way for the full blood to have his restrictions removed even by the Secretary of the Interior, and ask him if that is satisfactory to him. The Interpreter. He does. He thinks that that is satisfactory, and he thinks that they can not sell their lands for twenty-five years. Governor Porter. Speaking for the full bloods he means. Senator Brandegee. I would like to ask him whether under that prohibition against selling his land for twenty-five years he thinks that his full-blood people would be liable to sell for a very small price now to somebody who would be willing to take title at the end of the twenty-five years ? , The Interpreter. He says that there are a great many people or that kind, who would put a small valuation on the land because of the fact that it is to be delivered at some time twenty-five years hence. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 427 Senator Beandegee. Ask him why, if that is so, it is not a damage to the Indians to have that restriction continued, if they are now going to sell for a very small price, when they could, if they had a free market, get a very large price? The Interpeeter. He says that that might possibly be better. Governor Poetee. This is what he says; that that might be true; that is, that he might get a very small price if it was to be delivered twenty-five years hence, and that if it was sold at all now, he would have to sell it at a very small price, and that he thinks it might be that they would get a better price if it were sold outright now. Governor Poetee. I would like Mr. Haynes to be heard now. He is a member of the House of Kings. The Chaietman (to Mr. Haynes). Do you not speak English? Mr. Haynes. Very Httle. The Chaieman. Would you not prefer to speak English? Mr. Haynes. No, sir. Senator Long. Where were you educated? Where did you learn to speak English ? Mr. Haynes. Here in the coimtry. Senator Long. You went to school here? Mr. Haynes. Yes ; I went to school here and in Jackson, Tenn. Senator Beandegee. Had you not better continue to speak Eng- lish? Mr. Haynes. I can not make myself so clear. STATEMENT OF MR. SAMUEL J. HATNES, A FTJLL-BLOOD CHEEK INDIAN AND A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF KINGS OF THE CHEEK COUNCIL. (Mr. Haynes spoke through an interpreter, Mr. G. W. Grayson.) The Inteepretee. He says he is very glad to meet you gentlemen and wishes to speak a few words to you. He says that the Creeks have known now for quite a while that such a committee from the Senate of the United States would visit this coimtry, and, anticipating that visit, the Creeks recently appointed a number of gentlemen to appear and talk to you on subjects that will be of interest to them, and being one of those gentlemen he is glad to be before you and to be able to talk to you. JHe says : ' ' In delegating myself and others here to appear before you; the Creek Council as a council expressed to me and to the other gentle- men here their views on certain subjects, and I was instructed to speak those views, and that is about all that I shall have to say to you here this evening. "The Council, sitting as such and formulating instructions for these gentlemen, wrote out what it was that they wanted these gentlemen to represent to you, and I have that now in written form and will speak to you first of the article that first appears there. "According to the last treaty, or rather agreement, with the Gov- ernment of the United States it was stipulated that in the issuance of deeds to allotted lands these deeds were to be perfected by the Creek chief and by him delivered to the citizens. That now is the wording of the agreement; but just reqently this law we spoke of that was enacted by the Congress of the United States seems to provide for the deeds thus issued to come to the Dawes Commission, and through that Commission the allottees are to be foimd and the deeds delivered to 428 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. them. That is the understanding of the Creek Council and also our present chief. "The Creeks are of the opinion that inasmuch as we have a treaty stipulation, or rather an article of agreement, with the Government whereby these deeds were to be issued to the allottees by the chief, and inasmuch as we have gone on for several years delivering these through our chief to the allottees, the Creeks are of opinion that there are no good causes existing now why that procedure should be changed. While the Government in passing that act saw probably no difficulties that would arise under it, there is nevertheless this trouble: The Indians know that the majority of their people are people who do not speak two languages, but only one — the Indian language. The Creeks in entering into agreement with the Government provided for the chief to issue these deeds, for the reason that the chief knows a large number of the people personally. Then, again, he speaks their language, and many of the people do not speak more than the one language, and for that reason the chiefs and the people believe that the chief is the most proper person to deliver them and will be able to do so more successfully than anybody else. "They provided this arangement in the agreement for the reason that, as has just been said, the chief knows the various towns. Our people are divided up into what we call 'towns.' There are 47 of them, and each town has a specific name designating and meaning that settlement of people. The chief knows all of these towns, knows all the names of them, and, as said before, knows a great number of the people living in those various towns. " When an individual comes to the Executive Office for his deed, or if he has come for the deed of some one who died, all these various explanations can be made, and the Indian would feel perfectly free when speaking to one of his own people. It was believed that this was and would be the most successful way of delivering these deeds to the proper owners. "If the new plan is adopted, as we hear is to be adopted, a great number of our people who have never come to so great a town even as Muskogee, when they come to this place become perfectly bewil- dered. They do not know which one of these great buildings to approach in order to get at the Conunissioner. They are embarrassed and must hunt up somebody to interpret what they have to say, and probably a lawyer. This will entail upon the Indians a decided hardship. "One of the results of this would be that those people, knowing those difficulties and dreading to come here, and when here becoming bewildered and knowing nobody to whom to go to get the deed, would be likely not to come at all, and that would be likely to spread out the process of settling up the matters of the Creek Nation. "That is one matter that the Creek Council wanted distinctly set before you gentlemen, and their request is very clear and specific on this subject. They ask that if it be possible for you to so amend your last law on this subject they would like you to so amend it as to continue that provision in the agreement with the Government whereby the principal chief may continue to deliver these deeds to the allottees." The Chairman. When the Indians receive their deeds under the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 429 present procedure, do they not have to come to Muscogee to the governor's office to receive them?' The Interpreter. You are speaking now of the procedure under the new law. The Chairman. No, under the former procedure, where the gov- ernor dehvered the deeds. The Interpreter. Those that did not come to the chief's office to get their deeds would write to him, and these letters were registered, and a number of these full-blood Indians write the Indian language, and he understands the Indian language and he responds to them as they may require. Of course the Indian could not write in the Indian language to the Dawes Commission on business of that kind or any other business. The Chairman. I understand. The Interpreter. Mr. Haynes says that the next matter that the Council touched upon was the matter of orphans, minors, and incom- petents. As to those persons the Creek Council had an idea. They believed when they adopted the agreement that the parents would be the guardians of their children without bond. They so understood it, and they agreed to the agreement under that belief. That was largely from the fact that a large number of our Creek Council do not speak the English language, although they write it, and the interpre- tation might not have been as clearly rendered to thena as it should have been. They fully expected that they would have full charge, supervision, and management of their children's property, land and otherwise, also of the incompetents. They expected that the property of the incom- petents would be cared for by the nearest of kin. But after that agreement had been agreed to they learned that some one of the courts had decided that a parent could not handle his minor children's property without a hearing before some court and executing a bond, etc. Governor Porter. It may be as well to say ' ' allotments." That is what he meant. The Interpreter. Yes. That is right. "They fully believed that they would have the management of their minor children's allotments. But when they found that the courts had decided differently, they then saw at once that it was going to be very burdensome to them. They saw that they knew nothing about the laws of the United States that requires a person to come before a court and give bond. They saw that they would have to come to this place and find somebody to interpret for them before the courts and the various officers of the courts here in regard to this bond and getting control of the allotment. They found that certain expenses accompanied the procedure — they would have to pay some lawyer to act for them and have to go into various different procedures here, something entirely new to them, and they saw that this was an ad^itior^al burden to them that they never had expected in the beginning when they signed the agreement, and now they wish, if that original understanding of the agreement can be so maintained as that*they would not have to go to all this trouble, that is what they desire. They do not wish to be obliged to incur various expenses which they would be unable to meet, as they have no one to whom they could apply for loans of money accompanying these expenses of giving 430 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. bond, SO that it is a great hardship to very many of our people from which they would like to be freed. "Even in the matter of recording a deed in some of the courts, all these things cost money, which they had never understood would be any part of the procedure when they signed the agreement. "Seeing these difficulties and hardships that must necessarily devolve upon our people, the Council told this Commission which they sent here to meet you gentlemen, they instructed them to ask if you will not adopt such conditions as to enable them to be the guardians of their own children and deal with their property. "There are other matters here that the Council formulated for our instruction, but there are other gentlemen here who were sent along with myself, and I will leave the others of them to speak to you about those matters. ' ' The proposition to remove the restrictions from the surplus allot- ments is a matter that I wish to speak of. It is in our instructions, but then I am a member of the Upper House of the Creek Council, and it was very fully discussed there, and I know whereof I speak." Senator Long. One question. Was action taken by the Council on the subject of removal of the restriction ? The Interpreter. He says on that subject: "The Council passed a resolution whereby they appointed a committee and the committee who drafted this paper said to the Council : Now, gentlemen, you have appointed us a committee; we want to hear from you in your indi- vidual capacities here as members of the National Council, and rep- resenting your constituency back at home, what it is you want on this subject. That is how I came to hear so fully the expression of the full- blood Indians on that subject! They spoke very fully and spoke as representing the people who had sent them to that Council. And they spoke there in the Council on the subject of the removal of restrictions, believing that the committee who had been appointed to draft these instructions would thereby be instructed and Know better what to prepare to present here to you gentlemen. They spoke very fully there in our Council and said that this last law of the Congress of the United States prohibiting the sale of lands for 25 years was a very good thing for the full-blood Indians, but then the committee having heard what the Councillors wanted, went out and formulated instructions, and that committee, after having heard all that had been said in the House of Kings on the subject of the removal of restrictions, nevertheless, contrary to what they had heard the members of the Council say, brought in a report (these instructions here) with one article in it wherein you gentlemen were requested to use your efforts to have the restrictions removed. "When this report came up from the committee, this report that I hold in my hand, with this provision in it, the House of Kings were very expressive in their expressions against it. It was, upon motion, cut out, and it is not in it." • The Chairman. That was in the Legislative Assembly, was it? Senator Long. The council. The council is composed of two hojjses. The Interpreter. Yes. Senator Long. Which is the higher house? The Interpreter. The house of kings is the higher. The speaker, Mr. Haynes, is a member of it. "It went to the other house and they FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 431 very gladly agreed to it. And therefore I have to say to you gentle- men that that was the emphatic action of the council and such action is well known. It is very recent and it expresses the wishes of these people on the subject of the removal of restrictions. They want no removal so far as restrictions generally are concerned. They think the law as it now stands is the better thmg for them." Senator Long. That is, for the full bloods ? The Interpreter. Yes. Senator Long. Under the original agreement all Creeks, including full bloods, could dispose of their lands after the 30th of June next, except homesteads, but he thinks this last law is an improvement on that? The Interpreter. Yes, sir. He says: "The Creeks in council expressed themselves very clearly on that subject. There are a few people who wish their restrictions removed, and there are a few people who are having their restrictions removed, but the council was very decided in declaring that the great majority of their people wanted no restrictions removed." The Chairman. Did that refer to all bloods, to all members of the tribe, or did it refer to full bloods only ? The Interpreter. He says : "There are very few full-blood Indians who want their restrictions removed. A large proportion of those who are not full bloods want their restrictions removed. He says that some time ago it was open for any full-blood Indian to make application for the removal of his restrictions, but a little examina- tion will show that a large majority of the people never availed them- selves of the opportunity." Governor Porter. Or of any other blood? The Interpreter. Yes. "And that is one proof that the people do not want their restrictions removed. It is so now under the pres- ent law that a half blood or a person that is not a full blood can have his restrictions removed. There are a great number of them who have not tried and do not seem to intend to avail themselves of the opportunity afforded by the new law. It would seem that they do not care to have their restrictions removed at all." He says that a great number of people get in among these full bloods. ' ' These people are usually lawyers, who talk to them and induce them to have their restrictions removed. In that way some restrictions have been removed, and it probably went so far.as that Congress thought it was a proper thing for the Indians to have all their restrictions removed." He says that he might give a case in point. " One of my own constit- uents," he says, "had 40 acres of land. It was near to a town. He was induced to have his restrictions removed. These people who wanted to have this old Indian's restrictions removed took him up to Kansas City and endeavored there to induce him to make application for the removal of his restrictions. It was his homestead, and he objected to it. There he was, in Kansas City, a plS,ce he knew noth- ing about, and where he had no friends. They said to him 'you have got to stay here until you sign these papers. We won't give you a cent to go home on until you do.' This old Indian, a consuituent of mine, wrote me a letter to that effect, that he was treated in this way, and asked me to send him $20 to come home on. I did not get the letter for quite a while, and when I did get the letter calling for the $20 I did not know where the Indian had gone or where he was to be 432 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. found, but in a short time afterward I found that the parties who had taken him up there had brought him back. They had consummated the trade by which they got his 40 acres, his homestead. When the members of the house of kings saw such procedure as characterized this case and other cases of which they knew they took it into their heads that this law of the last Congress of the United States was the better thing for them, for their people. I have a letter here that might be of some interest here in this connection." Senator Teller. Is that about the same Indian that' he has just been speaking of? The Interpreter. No. The letter is as follows: International Land Company, Muskogee, Ind. T., November 13, 1906. Mr. Job Grayson. Dear Sir: In regard to the Indian tribes and the removal of restrictions of the Indians' allotments I wish to inform you that I am appointed by the Commercial Club of Muskogee, Muskogee, Ind. T., to have five Indians as a committee, and by thinking it over I find that Mr. John Goat, of Holdenville, Ind. T., Little Joe Grayson, of Okmulgee, Ind. T., Timmie Fife, of Sapulpa, Ind. T., Toney Proctor, of Okmulgee, Ind. T., and Coachman Charlie, of Wotunka, Ind. T., would be the ones that I would want, so I will call you all to meet at Muskogee, Ind. T., in the morning of the 15th, of the week 1906, to meet the Senatorial Investigating Committee, which will be here on the 15th, 16th, and 17th of this month, and I thought that it is the best interest for us to lay our little matters before the committee. So, come, and let's all be together and see. We all know that the committee of the Creek Council will be here that day. So come, and I will pay the hotel bill and all the cigars that we can smoke up. Come at once. Yours, very truly, W. M. Freeman. The Interpreter. He says: "I do not lay much stress on this letter ; but the person that was asked to come down here simply said to this gentleman that the National Council had appointed these fentlemen to appear before this committee of the United States enate, and that whatever they wanted to say they would say, and he would not have anything to do with those parties. There is one of the gentlemen here; but I do not know whether he came on this business or not. "The man, William Freeman, who wrote that letter is a Creek Indian, and he says that people here — somebody in this town — have employed him or engaged him to do this kind of work among the Indians. The Indians think that they have seen not only this case but other cases very like it, and they have an idea that if the bars are thrown down and all classes of people are turned loose upon them it will be the ruination of the Indians, and for that reason they are of opinion, and decidedly of opinion, that the last law enacted by Con- gress was a better thing for the full-blood Indians. "I am glad to have met with you gentlemen. In our council we call you ' Kings, ' and I am very happy to have had the opportunity of talking with you on this occasion." The Chairman? I notice that nearly all your thought is directed to the question of the full-bloods, you appearing, as it were, in a rep- resentative capacity. I would like to have your opinion, if you have no objection, not as representing the council of the Greek Nation, but as an individual, and as a man acquainted with the people and with the circumstances. If you have no objection I would like to have your views in regard to the removal of restrictions as to the mixed bloods. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 433 The Interpbeter. He says: "I have not dwelt on that subject for the reason that the mixed-blood people are people who can speak English and can talk and think for themselves. And they know where to find the officers who can attend to matters of the removal of restrictions. I do not know that that is a matter of detriment to them. I was only speaking as to the matter of the full-bloods." Governor Porter. He (signifying Mr. Haynes) stated that the law had given liberty to the mixed bloods to sell, under the supervision of the Department, and that that was satisfactory so far as he knew; but he is speaking of the people that were satisfied with what you have done. The Interpreter. He says : " I would say in conclusion that I am in rather an embarrassed condition now. I belong to a race of people who had a government with which they were satisfied long before you were ever known as a nation; and now that it has come to the point where our sun is setting in the far west and we must soon be known no more as a tribe of citizens and a government there is a pathos about it that is not very pleasant to contemplate. But, never- theless, I am pleased to meet with you gentlemen. I gather courage from the fact that you are a great people, a strong people, and claim sometimes to be a magnanimous people. You have gone and made great preserves whereby you are keeping from destruction and annihi- lation the wild beasts of the field, and if you will go so far as to lay out great sections of country and keep wild animals in those preserves and prohibit the firing of guns in those preserves in order that those animals may be kept alive I take it that inasmuch as I am a human being and you have come into my country and have taught me the Christian religion and have talked to me about the great God above and how he controls the destinies of men and directs them in the right fath, if that is your religion, gentlemen, then I am glad of the fact, and take it that you will protect me and my people. That is all I can say. [Applause in the hall.] STATEMENT OF MR. ALECK DAVIS, A FULL-BLOOD CREEK INDIAN AND SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF WARRIORS OF THE CREEK COUNCIL. , Muskogee, Ind. T., Friday, November 16, 1906. Mr. Davis spoke through an interpreter, Mr. A. P. McLupp, of Mus- kogee, Ind. T. The Chairman. Let him give his nationality and post-ofiice address. The Interpreter. He says : " I am a full-blood Creek Indian. I am speaker of the house of warriors of the Creek council." He says he does not understand the English language. Senator Long (to the interpreter). Are you a mixed-blood Creek? The Interpreter (speaking for himself) . I am three-quarters Creek and one-quarter Scotch. Senator Brandegee. Ask Mr. Davis how many members there are of the national council, each house of it. The Interpreter. He says there are 47 members of the house of kings and 101 of the house of warriors, and he says: "I am speaker 434 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. of the house of warriors and I desire to speak with the committee very briefly. In speaking I shall speak with respect to all classes of citizens, the half -breeds, the full bloods, and the freedmen. I include the different classes of citizens in this nation, for the reason that the treaty or agreement was made with all, and for the further reason that I do not believe that the Government of the United States has fully carried out its agreement with us. The Creeks on their part have always complied fully with all the terms of the agreement and treaties heretofore made with them; but I do not believe that the United States Government has, on its part, carried out the conditions of the treaty, especially the recent agree- ment with the Creek people. The original Creek agreement pro- hibited all citizens of every class from selling their allotments except after five years without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. That is, the agreement prohibited any citizen from selling his land within five years from the date of allotment without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. Now, the treaty provided that allot- ments can be sold only on the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. The Government, without the knowledge of the sense of the Creek people, passed an act allowing certain citizens of the Creek Nation the right to alienate their allotments; that is, the freedmen. The Congress in removing the restrictions on the sale of lands of freedmen undoubtedly believed that in so doing they were not in any way injuring the full-blood element. But the removal of restrictions on the freedmen's lands has injured the full bloods, because of the fact that that act of Congress removing the restrictions upon the sale of the lands of freedmen was taken as a basis by parties in the Terri- tory here in the Creek Nation, and they began to petition Congress for further legislation looking to the removal of restrictions on the aliena- tion of lands of other Indians as well. When persons who were in favor of the removal of restrictions saw that Congress had taken one step in the removal of restrictions on the allotment of freedmen, they would increase their energy to have the restrictions removed from the lands of full bloods, and when the full bloods know that the first five-year limit has now expired and that. by act of Congress the time is now extended for twenty-five years and have seen the effects so far, they have decided that the law should remain as it is continuing the restrictions. I do not believe that Congress can do anything that would.be better or would be a greater benefit to the Creek people than to stand by this act that continues the restrictions for twenty-five years on the alienation of their lands. If Congress will continue the restrictions on the lands as at present, the next generation will perhaps be in a better condition to protect itself and to appreciate its property better than the present genera- tion does. While it is true that these people own this land and it is theirs, at the same time I believe that if the land was thrown upon the market they would be robbed of it. It would be bought at an inade- quate price, and they would soon be without land. I beheve, there- fore, that the Secretary should continue his control over the property of these full-blood Indians and manage it. In accordance with the treaty of 1866 the freedmen of the Creek Nation were given the same rights to land and money as the original members of the tribe, and they acquired the same rights of property, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 435 and when Congress passed the act removing the restrictions on the aUenation of the allotments of the freedmen Iwas satisfied that before that act went into effect or even before it was passed contracts had already been made for the larger portion of the lands of these freed- men. I believe that if the restrictions of twenty-five years are re- moved on the Indian lands the bulk of them will be sold within a month afterwards. Then if the restrictions are removed that would subject the land to taxation, and that would be a further inducement to those people to dispose of their holdings. The intention, no doubt, was that by con- tinuing the restrictions for twenty-five years those who are now chil- dren will have become of age, and they will have learned the ways of the white people and will be in a position to take better care of their property — the property that was left to them by their parents — and they will be better able to take care of themselves. No doubt in your plans you expect to visit all the different nations of the Territory. You have had much of your time consumed by others than citizens of these nations, and we have been accor&ed but a short space of time this afternoon to confer with you. I close by stating that T feel an honor conferred upon me for the privilege of speaking to you gentlemen, Senators of the United States, and I ask very earnestly that you consider carefully the statements that we present to the committee." Senator Brandegee. May I ask a question? Have the Five Civil- ized Tribes communicated with each other through their national councils about this matter of the removal of restrictions? The Interpreter. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. What is the amount of the homestead allot- ment among the Creeks ? The Interpreter. Forty acres. Senator Brandegee. How much surplus lands does each have? The Interpreter. The whole allotment of each individual Creek is 160 acres, of which 40 acres is a homestead and 120 acres surplus land. Senator Brandegee. Is the surplus 120 acres usually in the neigh- borhood of the homestead, or is it far removed ? The Interpreter. In many instances the allotment is iu one body — a quarter section. Sometimes it is 80 in one quarter section and 80 in another. It is in various ways, usually iu one body. Senator Brandegee. Is it all agricultural land, or is some of it mineral ? The Interpreter. Some of it is oil land, or some coal land, or all agricultural land. I do not know as to the mineral part of it. Senator Brandegee. Ask him if he can tell on an average about what it is worth an acre ; if he has any general idea on that subject ? The Interpreter. The average price would be about $2.50 to $3.50. Governor Porter. The way it has been appraised, he means. The Interpreter. He says he has given the Government ap- praised value. Senator Brandegee. But I wanted to know whether he considers it worth more than the appraised value or not. The Interpreter. He says : " If I had to put a price on my own land I would put it at $25 an acre," 436 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Beandegee. If the full bloods do not speak English and have to have an interpreter when they make a bargain, ask him whether he thinks they are competent to make a bargain with a pur- chaser for the sale of thv. ir lands (if their restrictions were removed) that would be a just bargain for them? The Interpreter. No, sir; I do not believe that they could make a good trade. Senator Brandegee. Ask him this: Whether they made a good trade or not, assuming that the restrictions were removed, and that they sold the lands now for their value, what would become of the majority of the full bloods? The Interpreter. I think that thev would waste their money. Take, for example, the matter of the allotments that are being sold now through the Indian agent. Some of the allottees receive $1,000 for their 120 acres, some as much as $2,000. This is put in bank by the United States Indian Agent, and is paid to the allottees at a rate of $50 a month, and the allotee, knowing that he can receive 150 a month, it happens very often that he will spend that $50 in a very few days and is in need of money again. The bank, knowing that the money is there, and that in another month he will have $50 more, advances him money in the nature of a loan, charges him in- terest and keeps advancing money to him all along; and when the money is all withdrawn from the bank the allottee has consumed a good deal of it in paying interest and has not received the full benefit of the purchase price of his property. That is being done now and it would not be done if he were to receive all his money at one time. Senator Brandegee. When the full-blood Indian parts with his land in the country, where is he himself going to live? If he comes to the city, where he can not speak English, and is to be a farmer, what is he going to do ? The Interpreter. He will there have to work, or else go to steal- ing and be sent to the penitentiary, and then he would die. Senator Brandegee. I do not care to ask anything further on that phase of the matter; but let me ask him this: Were the instructions of his council to opi)ose the removal of restrictions confined to the removal of the restrictions of the full bloods, or did those instructions include the restrictions of the mixed bloods? The Interpreter. The mixed bloods or half breeds have already been permitted to dispose of their lands, but the council undoubtedly had reference to all the citizens, and made no distinction between any classes of them. Senator Long. What proportion of the house of kings are full-blood Indians? The Interpreter. He says that over 40 of the 47 members are full bloods. Senator Long. And what proportion of the house of warriors? The Interpreter. About 70 of the house of warriors. Senator Long. Seventy out of how many? The Interpreter. Seventy out of 101 are full bloods. Senator Brandegee. What is the occupation of the witness? The Interpreter. He says he is a farmer. Senator Brandegee. Do his people have any trades among them? The Interpreter. He says "I only know of about two." FIVE OIVrLIZED TRIBES. 437 Senator Brandegee. Do they not manufactiire anything — leather or anything? The Interpreter. No. Senator Brandegee. Do they not have any school in which chil- dren learn some manual training ? The Interpreter. They do not teach them any trades in the schools of the Creek Nation. They teach them farming, but not the trades or professions. Senator Brandegee. Do they not have any carpenters or black- smiths? The Interpreter. No, sir. Governor Porter. They are not taught them. Senator Brandegee. If a Creek Indian wants to get a horse shod, does he have to come into the city ? Governor Porter. They have some carpenters and blacksmiths and quite a number of other trades followed by individual citizens, and have been ever since I could understand anything, and I am 66 years old. Senator Brandegee. Did he not understand my question? Governor Porter. I do not know. He said they were not taught that in school. STATEMENT OF MB. E. B. CHILDEKS, A CBEEK INDIAN. Mr. Childers spoke through an interpreter, Mr. G. W. Grayson. The Chairman. Please state your citizenship and blood. The Interpreter. He says, "I am a Creek Indian, three-quarters Indian." The Chairman. If there are any matters that you would like to pre- sent to the committee, we shall be glad to hear you. What is your occupation? The Interpreter. He says: "I am a farmer, and a member of the house of warriors. " My statement will be short, inasmuch as the other members of the committee have stated fully and gone over the ground in reference to our instructions from the Creek council; but in reference to the removal of restrictions I may add that after returning home from the Creek councU I took occasion to call my constituents together in order that I may get their sentiments, particularly as to the matter of the removal of restrictions. Right here I may mention that my constitu- ents are — three-quarters of them may be classed as — half-breeds, or mixed bloods; that is, there are but very few full-blood Indians in the town that I represent, and the sentiment, as shown in the council, by representatives of the full bloods, is that they are opposed to the removal of restrictions; but representing another element, as I deem it, I deemed it necessary to ascertain the sentiment of that other ele- ment. That is because of my being appointed one of the committee to appear before your honorable body. My people decided that they favor the Government's maintaim'ng the present laws of restriction, with some form of modification." Senator Long. Your constituents do ? The Interpreter. "Yes. Then in reference to the allotments of deceased people, we have what is knoWn as 'dead heirs.' There are citizens who have acquired allotments, have obtained deeds, who, later, 438 nvB oiviLizBD tribes. have died, and there are other citizens who have also acquired allot- ments of their own, who should be heirs to these deceased's allotments. In that case we favor removal of restrictions from all classes of all citi- zens, with the right to be given to some competent court to decide the heirship to those allotments." The Chairman. In other words, you want the restrictions removed from that allotment, and the court to decide who are the heirs? The Intbrpketek. He says: "Yes. Some court authority to decide who the heirs are, and in case the property is sold that the pro- ceeds be paid to the parties that are heirs to the allotment. This is the sentiment of my own town, my constituents. "There is another instruction that probably might have been over- looked; it just comes to my mind now; another instruction of the national council that I do not think has been touched upon. It is that in our treaty or last agreement the improvements that were made upon the lands of the Creek people prior to allotment, the Creek lands, those improvements should be paid for by parties who allotted upon those lands, and that the appraisements be made without recourse to the Creek citizens, on the part of the United States Government. That work has been discontinued for reasons, of course, unknown to us." The Chairman. Then I understand you that where an allotment is made by a man upon improved land on which he has not lived thereto- fore there is no provision made by which he shall pay the former occu- pant of that land for the improvements? The Interpreter. He says, "There were provisions" The Chairman. They are not followed out, you say ? The Interpreter. Not in this case. For instance, there was a citizen who had quite a farm and had more than he could hold. He first allotted what he could hold. Then any other citizen can allot on that land, but the new citizen should pay the citizen that owns these improvements, and if the payment is not made the rents of the land should go for the payment of the improvement until all are paid for. We know of cases where parties were forced to give up their improvements without being properly compensated, and, on the other hand, we know of parties who still hold allotments or property that if the proper rent had been properly applied they would more than pay for the improvements that were on the allotment. Governor Porter. He still has possession. The Interpreter. He still has possession. We would like to have . some way or method applied by which that matter could be remedied. I do not know of anything else to say. The Chairman. You have been speaking as a representative of both the Creek National Council and of your own constituents. If it is entirely agreeable to you, I would like to ask your own personal opinion, without reference to your representative capacity. _ I should like to get your views as to the general removal of restrictions, in so far as they affect the Indian of mixed blood. The Interpreter. He says: "My personal view on that would he this: We have mixed bloods as well as we have men of full blood that are able to take care of their own interests, and the renioval or restrictions would not affect them one way or the other, while I am sorry to say that quite a number of our younger growing generation would actually become homeless if the restrictions were all removed. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 439 The Chairman. I ■will ask your opinion also as to the matter of removal of restrictions where a person shows his competency and pro- ceeds through proper channels to effect the removal of restrictions, as with the present regulations; whether that is preferable or whether it would be preferable to have a general law for the removal of restrictions for all except the homestead, as to those of mixed blood. Do you understand what I mean ? The Interpreter. He says: "I understand. My personal opin- ion is that I never favored class legislation. I believe m dealing with citizens all alike." Senator Long. Under the present law or the supplemental Creek agreement unless there is additional legislation the mixed bloods can sell their lands after the 30th of June next. The Interpreter. Yes. Senator Long. All of them except the full bloods. Do you favor an amendment of that law extending that time, or do you thiak that law should be permitted to go into effect ? The Interpreter. He says: "I do not understand you." Senator Long. As I understand, and I will ask Governor Porter whether this is not correct, under the supplementary Creek agree- ment, after the 30th of June next the mixed bloods of the Greek Nation can dispose of or sell their lands except homesteads. The Interpreter. Yes. Senator Long. Is that your understanding? The Interpreter. He says: "My understanding of that law is that all citizens can." Senator Long. Congress attempted last winter to amend that or modify it by saying that the full bloods of all tribes can not dispose of their lands for the next twenty-five years. The Interpreter. He says: "Yes." Senator Long. Do you think that that law so far as it relates to mixed bloods should stand or should it be extended — should the time be extended ? The Interpreter. He says: "I believe that if anything is done I would rather see that law maintained." Senator Long. He would like to have it maintained? The Interpreter. Yes. Senator Long. So that they would get the right on the 30th of June next — I think I am right on that, am I not. Governor Porter? Governor Porter. Yes; all adults. The restriction being removed would have nothing to do with minors. Senator Long. Minors and full bloods ? Senator Teller. It would not apply to minors, anyway. Governor Porter. No. Senator Long. Nor to homesteads ? Governor Porter. No. The Interpreter. Mr. Childers says : " I would like to see a general law that would apply to all citizens of the Creek Nation." Senator Long. Including full bloods ? The Interpreter. Yes, all. The Chairman. Which class would you have in that removal of restrictions ? The Interpreter. He says to "keep the restriction on all classes of citizens." 440 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. For twenty-five years ? The Inteepretee. Yes; if necessary. The purpose, as I under- stand, of this individuahzing of this allotment is to procure homes for those people, and it is for the betterment of those citizens to teach them to take care of their own interests and to ieach them to have a home. That was the understanding of the Creek people when they accepted the arrangement of partition of a common holding. It was to select a home. All citizens should have a home, and by forcing the restrictions to be removed on all classes of citizens you would be sub- jecting them to an element of people who would barter or trade them out of their homes, thereby defeating the idea and the main object in entering into this treaty. Governor Portee. Let me read: "Lands allotted to citizens shall not in any manner whatever or at any time be encumbered, taken or sold to secure or satisfy any debt or obligation nor be alienated by the allottee or his heirs before the expiration of five years from the date of the approval of the supplemental agreement." That is the treaty. Senator Long. That is the treaty of 1902 ? Senator Tellee. That will expire next year. Senator Long. Next June. Governor Poetee. That would release all but the homesteads; but you have protected the full-bloods by extending the time. Now, gen- tlemen, I wish to say that Mr. Johnson is here, and I would like him to speak about how these matters affect his people. STATEMENT OF J. COODY JOHNSON, A CBEEK! FREEDMAN, MEM- BEE. OF THE NATIONAL COTTNCIIi OF THE CREEK NATION. The Chairman. Give your post-office address and nationality. Mr. Johnson. My post-office address is Wewoka, Ind. T. I am a citizen of the Creek Nation by adoption, a freedman, and a very full- blood one. I am also a member of the National Council of the Creek Nation. I was appointed or selected by the Council to accompany this delegation to confer with you as to the wishes of the Creek Nation in the final settlement of their landed interests by the Government. You are doubtless aware that the citizenship of the Creek Nation is composed of a mixed multitude, I might say, of people of various nationahties. One of the reasons for that is that in 1866 and prior thereto the Creek Indians, along with other citizens of the United States, were pleased to own slaves — ^persons of African descent and blood — and on the abolition of slavery the proclamation of emanci- pation found these slaves — these persons who had been slaves — resi- dents of the Creek Nation. The Creeks, in making their treaty of 1866 between themselves and the United States Govermnent, saw fit to make citizens of these people who had been their slaves. Some gen- tlemen take the position that they became free in spite of the Indians; but I say that they made citizens of them of their own free volition. That is evident, because there was no reason why those people should be given citizenship among those Indians if the Indians had not so desired. There has never oeen, so far as I know — and I think I may state that I speak advisedly when I sayso — there has never been any cojnplaint among the Creeks as to this particular class of citizens. They have not felt that we were intruders or usurpers of a part of tneu: domain, as has been stated by some overzealous citizens looking for FIVE CIVILIZBD TRIBES. 441 our protection; but, rather, the Creeks have recognized them as citi- zens, and as such they were amenable to all the laws governing the (>eek people. They were eligible to any office in the gift of the Creek people. We lived here side by side, and there grew up a friendship among the people of the different nationalities, and this friendship continues to exist up to this day. When the Government saw fit to insist upon the people of the Creek Nation segregating their lands and taking their allotments in indi- vidual holdings, these people were included as citizens, and we rnider- stood that there would be certain restrictions placed upon the alienation of lands, and that that was a wise provision made by the general Government for the protection of people who had recently come into an estate the value of which they did not fully realize, nor did they hardly understand how then to protect that estate. I say that the freedmen in the Creek Nation, as well as the Indians, were satisfied with the restrictions placed by Congress governing their allotments, and it is no wish of the freedmen, this class of citizens, that those restrictions should be removed. They never asked or desired it and they never, up to this day, have asked that any discrimination should be made by the general Government in their favor. We are willing to accept the citizenship just as the agreement of 1866 would haveit. Senator Long. Yoxir restrictions have all been removed ? Mr. Johnson. Yes ; I understand that. Senator Long. In 1894? Mr. Johnson. Yes; and I contend that they were removed without our consent. Senator Long. What has been the effect of that removal ? Mr. Johnson. That fully two-thirds of the adults of the freedmen citizens of the Creek Nation have been induced to part with their holdings for a very inadequate consideration. • I know of a number of instances that I could recall in which, the morning after the law had gone into effect, and before noon, parties had secured from 15 to 20 allotments — that is, surplus holdings of 120 acres each — and I know of some instances where 10 persons were induced to part with their entire 120 acres, and the aggregate sum of money paid for that land did not exceed $1,000. The Chaikman. A thousand dollars for the 10 allotments? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. I said it did not exceed $1,000. The effect of it has been that it has worked a detriment to the different classes of these people. It has thrown among us here a varied class of people. It has made idlers of people who, before these restrictions were removed, were content to attend to their labors and were industrious people and bade fair, if the restrictions had continued, to have grown into a better citizenship than we are making to-day. From what I know of the removal of the restrictions upon the lands of the Creeks, what I say naturally applies to the Indian, because it is an erroneous idea to suppose that because a few of the Indians pre- tend to speak the English language they are better capable of pro- tecting themselves than the full bloods. Rather the contrary is the case. There are very few of the freedmen in the Creek Nation who can be said to speak English intelligently and understand it, and the removal of restrictions from their lands has induced them to become idlers, to leave their homes, and drift into the towns here. They naturally acquire the vices of the superior race, and do not emu- S. Eep. 501.3, 59-2, pt 1 29 442 FTVB CIVILIZED TEIBE3. late any of their virtues. Our jails are full of a class of these lawless young people, while before the removal of restrictions there was hardly such an instance heard of. We have cases of men who have squandered the money that came from the sale of their allotments, and, in order to secvu'e further funds to carry on this blase life that they are living, they have forged the names of their allottees, and have sold their lands. I suppose it is safe to say that there are fifty cases of forgery on this docket here of that character. Since the removal of restrictions they have gone further and have been induced by designing persons to make affi- davits to the fact that mere children had reached their majority, in order that they may dispose of their holdings, notwithstanding that the records of the commission here are supposed to show the correct ages. I know of cases in which boys of sixteen have had the assist- ance of their elders in showing that they had reached 21 years of age in order to sell their allotments. That is working a great hardship on the people. What is true of the English-speaking people is also true of the full-blood Indian. Notwithstanding that the freedmen can speak English, if they are not able to take care of their allotments after having their restrictions removed, the case of the Indians would be three times worse. I do not suppose that it would take more than thirty days for the major- ity of the allotments in the Creek Nation to pass into other hands. I understand that some go so far as to say that the restrictions should be removed from even the homesteads of the freedmen. I want to enter an objection to that. If the homestead is to be dis- Eosed of they will be paupers. That will be true of the Indians also. much as to the restrictions. The Creek Council thought it best to ask that the restrictions be continued, and on the part of the freedmen I would like to ask that the restrictions on the homestead be continued just as it is, because it is a matter of protection to the people. They are no better able to take care of these 40 acres than they were able to take care of the 120. There is another matter to which we would like to iavite your attention, and that is to a part of the act of Congress approved in 1902 which provides that no funds belonging to said tribe snail here- after be issued or paid out for any purpose by any official of the United States Government without the consent of the tribe ex- pressly given through its National Council. We have been informed by our delegates returning from Washington that there is some- thing in the neighborhood ol 180,000 of the moneys belonging to the Creek people that has been expended by the various departments of the Government without the knowledge or consent of the National Council. Our people here have had under consideration the matter of the issuing of the patents to our citizens. The agreement provides that these patents shall be delivered to om: people without any addi- tional expense, and we naturally expected that the expenses incident to the delivery of the patent would not be taken from the treasury of the Creek people. We have been put to considerable expense as to that. The disbursing of money from the national treasury- money belonging to the Creek people — without the consent of the Creek people we deemed an infringement upon the agreement and treaty, and we a^k you that it be corrected. PIVB OrVTLIZKD TEIBES. 443 The CHAraMAN. Do you know what items entered into the dis- lursement of that $80,000? Mr. Johnson. No. It was a report submitted by the delegates on heir return. I have no statistics of it. Capt. G. W. Grayson was lue of the delegates. He is here and I think ne can mention some of he items. Governor Porter. You can get those from the records of the Gov- irnment. There are a number of items, such as collections of reve- me, payments made on that account, payments made for the pre- tention of smallpox, etc. There are quite a number of items. One tern is the expenses of the issuance and dehvery of deeds. Mr. Johnson. I thank you, gentlemen, for your attention. The Chairman. What is yom- occupation? " Mr. Johnson. I am a farmer, and I practice law in the Territory, n the United States courts. Senator Long. Have you any Indian blood in you? Mr. Johnson. Not any that I know of. Senator Brandegee. Where did you say you reside? Mr. Johnson. At Wewoka. Senator Brandegee. Is that a town or city? Mr. Johnson. It is a town, and the capital of the Seminole Nation. [ live just on the line. Senator Brandegee. Let me ask you this question: It is claimed jy those who want restrictions removed from their land that it will 36 better to have them removed; better for the Indians and freed- nen, because with the restrictions as they are now the allottee will sell for a song his property (it being under that cloud), that mider ;he restrictions nobody will pay him a good price, and if he, wants noney he will sell for almost nothing, and the purchaser takes the jhances of ultimately getting the title in some way or other, and therefore that it is better to have the restrictions removed entirely so ;hat they could have competition in the open market and let every- 3ody bid bona fide on it m the open market. Have you any views is to that? Mr. Johnson. I do not agree with that, Senator, for this reason. rhe majority of the people who are investing moneys in lands are, you might say, speculators. The money that they are using is bor- rowed &om eastern capitalists, and that argument does not hold good that the citizens would be induced to part with their lands for a very inadequate consideration, because of the fact that the title can not be perfected. I do not believe that that will be done, because as a rule these money lenders are very careful to know that they get good col- lateral for the money that they advance, and I think that a wholesale removal of the restrictions will tend, as I said awlule ago, to impover- ish the freedmen. It will make a class of citizens here who, because of the fact that they do not understand the value of their lands, will part with them for a nominal sum. Their immediate wants are, after all, about all that the citizens care anything about. For instance, if a man's fancy is taken up with a nice horse and buggy that he sees, and if he knows that he can readily part with 80 acres of his land and get liim a horse and buggy he will part with the land. Senator Brandegee. He need not part with so much, even if he parted with enough to get a horse and buggy. 444 ETra CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Johnson. Well, he will part with so much of it as the specu- lator insists on having. We hope that the Government will pass laws which will make a title of that kind invalid. We hope, in fact, that no encumbrance that can be placed on the land before the expiration of twenty-five years will be of any validity. Senator Brandegee. It has been stated by several r itnesses that if a law should be passed making those agreements invalid the nature of a full-blood Indian is such that he would regard it as a matter of honor, having made the agreement, whether valid in law or not, and that he would live up to it and would give over his lands. Mr. Johnson. I have lived among them a good many years. When the first agreement was made, there was an idea that that permitted them to sell their lands, and I noticed that some of them did; but just as soon as they found that the General Government would protect them in getting it back they generally tried to get it ba(?k. So I do not agree with the suggestion that the Senator mentioned. Senator Brandegee. You think they are safer in having the restric- tions on, instead of off? Mr. Johnson. Undoubtedly, yes, sir. The following were received and filed: To the Honorable Senate Committee on Affairs in Indian Territory, in session at Musiko- gee, Ind. T., this 16th day of November, 1906: As there are Indian citizens of one-fo\u'th and one-half Indian and white blood on the final census rolls of the Creek and Cherokee nations made by Dawes' Commissioii whose names are recorded as ' ' full bloods " and are not allowed the removal of restric- tions to sell their surplus lands to secure money to improve their homesteads and who are too old and too poor to work and improve their lands, I most respectfully ask and suggest that you recommend to the United States Congress at Washington in coming annual session to make a law removing restrictions from the alienation of their surplus lands, and when said parties are fifty years and over that they be allowed to sell their homesteads, and, further, if a full-blood Indian asks the removal of his restrictions grant him the right to sell his land. Joshua Ross, A Cherokee by birth and a Creek hy marriage. My age is 73J years. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 16, 1906. Hon. United States Senate Committee, Mvskogee, Ind. T.: Gentlemen: The rulings of the United States Court in the Indian Territory requir- ing natural guardians to get letters of guardianship for their minors are an expensive burden on the parents of Indian children, many of whom are poor and require the help of lawyers to make out papers and reports and be represented before the Hon. United States Court, or have other than parents to be guardians. Congress should make a law on the subject. Clerk fee, master of chancery fee, and lawyer fee, make large bills, and bills are larger when somebody else is guardian instead of the parent. I have no minor children, but other people have. I know the facts. Bespectfully, Joshua Ross, Cherokee by blood, Creek by marriage. STATEMENT OF MB. J. GEOBGE WRIGHT, UNITED STATES INDIAN INSPECTOB FOR THE INDIAN TERRITORY. The Chairman. vState your official position. Inspector Wright. United States Indian Inspector for the Indian Territory, having general supervision of matters pertaining to the Interior Department outside of those pertaining to the Dawes Commission. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. 446 The Chairman. We shall be glad to hear from you with regard to the working of the matters in your charge — as, for example, the matter of the sale of lands by the Indians, the removal of the restric- tions on the alienation of the lands of the Indians, and the oil and gas leases and their operation. Inspector Wright. With reference to the sale of land, there are two provisions of law with regard to the alienation of land at this time. Section 16 of the act of Congress approved June 30, 1902, being a supplemental agreement with the Creek Indians, provides that : Lands allotted to citizens shall not in any maimer whatever, or at any time, be encumbered, taken or sold to secure or satisfy any debt or obligation, nor be alienated by the allottee or his heirs before the expiration of five years from the date of the approval of this supplemental agreement, except with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. The five years mentioned will expire June 30, 1907. In 1903 the Secretary promulgated regulations whereby such citizens could sell their lands at private sale subject to his approval. About 450 sales were consummated, aggregating approximately $400,000. The Secretary, after investigation, considered that the prices offered for these lands were inadequate, and therefore he disapproved all sales and directed that they be sold by sealed bids. During the time those lands were advertised an appraiser was sent out by the agent to place a value on them. When the bids were opened, the highest bid was accepted, provided it was above the appraisement fixed upon it by the appraiser, which was not made known. After that sale was consummated the money was deposited in the Govern- ment depository, subject to the check of the Indian, with the approval of the Indian agent, in amounts not more than $50 a month, except where the Indian was shown to be competent, and then only by the authority of the Indian agent, the money to be left in the bank. Senator Long. Have there been any removal of restrictions except in that way? Inspector Wright. Except where the restrictions had been removed by the act up to April 26, 1906. In the Cherokee Nation by the terms of the agreement approved by Congress July 1, 1902, ratified by the vote of the Cherokee people August 7, 1902, concerning the sale of land, section 14 provides as follows: Lands allotted to citizens shall not in any manner whatever or at any time be encumbered, taken or sold to secure or satisfy any debt or obligation or be alienated by the allottee or his heirs before the expiration of five years from the date of the ratifica- tion of this act. Section 15. All lands allotted to members of said tribes, except such land as is set aside each for a homestead as herein provided, shall be alienable five years after issuance of patent. That has been held to apply as being subject to aUenation five years from the date that they get their deed, in the case of each individual. Senator Long. That is the construction of the Secretary, is it, or of the Department? Inspector Wright. Yes. No lands have yet been sold, because the time has not yet expired. Senator Long. When will the time expire ? 446 FIVE OIVILIZED TEIBES. Inspector Weight. August 7, 1907. Five years from the date of the agreement. The act was passed by Congress August 1, 1902, but subject to approval and ratification by the Cherokee people. It was ratified August 7, 1902. In the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, section 15 of the supple- mental agreement approved July 1, 1902, provides as follows: Lands allotted to members and freedmen shall not be affected or encumbered by any deed, debt or obligation of any character contracted prior to the time at which said land may be alienated under this act nor shall said land be sold except as herein provided. Section 16. All lands allotted to members of said tribes except such land as is set aside to each for hojnestead as herein provided, shall be alienable after the issuance of patent as follows: One-fourth in acreage in one year, one-fourt hin acreage in three years and the balance in five years, in each case from date of patent, Provided : That such lands shall not be alienable by the allottee or his heirs at any time before the expiration of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribal government for less than its appraised value. That is, the appraised value as fixed by the Dawes Commission. Senator Long. When did the patents in those two nations begin? When did the delivery of the patents begin in fact ? Mr. Wright. That I can not say. That is in charge of Mr. Bixby, and I do not know anything about the dates. Senator Long. They have begun to dehver the patents in both the Choctaw and Chicksaw nations? Inspector Wright. Yes, they are delivering them. Senator Long. What is the law in regard to the Seminoles? Inspector Wright. The Seminoles provide that their lands shall be alienable under the terms of their agreement after deeds are issued by the principal chief, and those deeds were to be issued by the principal chief after March 4, 1906, when it was expected that their tribal government would have expired under their existing law. Senator Long. And their lands were immediately alienable? Inspector Wright. Yes. Inspector Wright. Yes. Aside from those agreements there were two other provisions of. law prior to that of 1906 whereby lands might be sold. One was the act of Congress of March 3, 1903, which provided that whenever lands were desired for town site purposes on the line of any railroad being built the allottee could apply to the Dawes Commission, and when recommended by the Commission to the Five Civihzed Tribes to the Secretary, he could in those instances remove the restrictions from the allotments to permit the building of a town where town sites were desired. AppHcations in those cases have been made to the Commission. The act of April 21, 1904, provided for the removal of restrictions on the alienation of allotments of any of the tribes who are not of Indian blood, except minors and homesteads, and restrictions may be removed with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior in the Creek Nation under the provisions of the Creek agreement. Where a citizen by blood in the Indian Territory desires to have his restrictions removed, he makes application to the Indian agent, either by himself appearing before the agent or by written application sent in by mail. Where the appHcant is not known to be a capable person, the agent sends out a representative, and has hearings and has testi- mony taken showing the qualification of the appUcant. The Indian agent will explain more in detail the manner in which he handles that FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 447 matter, as well as the number of applications that have been made and received the approval of the Department. It appears that from April 1, 1904, when applications were first made, up to the present time, throughout the Territory there have been 7,415 applications submitted to the agent. The Chairman. That is all from the Five Civilized Tribes? Inspector Wright. All from the Territory; yes, sir. By order of the Department those applications after being passed on by the agent are forwarded by the inspector to the Indian Office with a recom- mendation. In view of the fact that no appropriation was made by Congress for the removal of the restrictions for carrying on the work prior to February last, applications up to that time did not receive the consideration that they should have received, but we had to take the regular force, and did not have any appropriation to put a sufficient force onto that class of work. But the urgent deficiency bill last February contained an appropriation for that pmrpose. The records show that up to Jime 30, 1905, there were filed 2,205 apphcations for the removal of restrictions. Of that niunber 388 were recommended by the then agent for approval and 982 for dis- approval. The balance, about 900, were pending in the agent^s office at that time. The reason of the recommendation of so large a num- ber for disapproval at that time was because full bloods were per- mitted to file their applications and it was considered in the judgment of the agent that they were not competent to have their restrictions removed. As I stated, there have been filed altogether since August 1, 1904, to the present time about 7,500 applications. Senator Brandegee. In deciding a case does the agent base his decision solely upon the testimony or does he base it partially upon bis own observation? Inspector Wright. If the Indian appears here the agent bases his decision on his own observation. If the Indian does not appear here, and can not come, as many Indians can not, the Department, when the apphcations were first considered, appointed a special agent from the Department to have those hearings. He woula set dates for the difFerent parts of the Territory, and apphcants would be notified that they would be heard before him and they may show their competency as best they could. In those cases where reports were made by the agent and passed on by myself they were passed on to the best of my abihty. Senator Brai'TOEgee. If the agent knows the apphcant personally does he require any testimony at all ? Inspector Wright. No, sir. In a great many instances, no; where there is no question of his capacity and where he is well known. Of those 7,500 applications that have been submitted to the present time there have been 5,195 submitted to the Department for approval, and of those 3,380 have been approved and 1,015 approximately dis- approved. Most of those that were disapproved by the Department were those of full bloods. Since the act of April 26, 1906, however, eliminating the full bloods, practically all the applications are recom- mended for approval. I doubt if 5 per cent are reconmiended for disapproval. The Chairman. You say that so many hundred of those have been disapproved by the Department ? Insepctor Weight. Yes. 448 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. The CHAmMAN. Are those cases which have been disapproved here or are they cases which have been approved here and reversed by the Department ? Inspector Weight. They have been disapproved here and recom- mended for disapproval. The Chairman. And the Department at Washington has followed •the recommendation of the ofhce here ? Inspector Wright. It is very rarely that cases that are recom- mended for approval here are disapproved by the Department. Senator Long. The Department generally approves your aption? Inspector Wright. Almost invariably. Senator Long. How long does it take the Department usually to express its approval? Inspector Wright. Since this last spring we have had applications come back here approved in sixteen days. That is about the shortest time. Others would run about a month; some two months. Senator Long. Some longer ? Inspector Wright. In the spring of last year the Department directed me to forward a map showing the location of the oil fields in the Creek Nation and in the Cherokee Nation, and it directed that the agent in forwarding his applications for removal of restrictions state ■vdiether or not the lands were within that field, as it would not be the policy of the Department to approve applications in that field; and they have not been approved m those cases in that oil field. There are a few cases, however, in the field where wells have been drilled on the tract itself where applications have been made for the removal of restrictions, and the locations have proved to be dry locations — dry wells — and in such cases the Department has removed the restrictions. I have a map here which will show the area of the oil field in the Chero- kee Nati^jn and in the Creek Nation. The Chairman. In which the restrictions are not removed ? Inspector Weight. In the Cherokee Nation the field noted in blue is what is considered by oil operators as producing territory, and differ- ent parties who have maps showing the different locations of the wells consider it producing territory. The space within that field which is noted in red is what is consid- ered by most operators to be the dry section, and is so referred to. Most of the wells that have been drilled in that section are dry. There are two gas wells in the western part, but most of that country has been Sound dry where drilled, and therefore in reporting to the Depart- ment as to the removal of restrictions within that area that fact is stated. The Chairman. Upon whose judgment was this segregation, as you might call it, made? Inspector Weight. It was made under my direction for the Depart- ment by a special agent appointed by the Department; but it was the area considered by oil operators and by maps prepared by parties advertising what is known as the oil field in the Cherokee Nation. The Chairman. In the rdmoval of restrictions, I understand you thus far, there is no bar because of this segregation to the removal of restrictions on this part in red. Senator Long. And the Department approves those? Inspector Wright. Where it is found that there have been oil wells drilled in that vicinity and that there have been no producing wells. PITE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. 449 Senator Beandegee. Has the Government, through the Geological Survey or otherwise, made any experiments or investigations itself? Inspector Wright. Not to nay knowledge. Senator Long. Has not the Geological Survey made an investiga- tion there of the producing field ? Inspector Wright. Not that I know of. The oil field of the Creek Nation in which restrictions are not removed are noted also in blue [referring to the map] ; and the other Sart, marked in green, is where coal leases are taken in the Creek ation. In the Cherokee Nation there have been no oil leases taken east of range 17, but they are taken all over this part west of that and joining the Oklahoma country, the Osage Nation. I will furnish the committee with a map showing the location of a great many wells as gotten up by parties who keep in touch with this question. The Chairman. Where is what is called the shallow well field ? Inspector Wright. East of here [indicating], while the deeper wells are to the west. Prior to a short time ago in the Creek Nation the oil operations in the vicinity of mounds was not very large — in fact, many wells were abandoned. But now there are large producing wells in the Territory; and that demonstrates that the field has not been sufficiently explored throughout the coimtry to know exactly where the largest fields may be. There are no oil wells, so far as I know, in the Choctaw Nation. There are several wells in the Chickasaw Nation, in the vicinity of Medill, and also at another place farther west, at Wheeler. In rec- ommending the removal of restrictions in those instances the attention of the Department is drawn to the fact of their proximity to that The Chairman. What is the theory of the Department in declining to remove restrictions where the land is supposed to be underlain with oil? Inspector Wright. It is my understanding that it was the poKcy of the President not to remove restrictions from oil lands whereby such lands might fall into the hands of a monopoly. That is my under- standing of it. During the time that the examination was being made by order of the Department to ascertain, as nearly as we could, the oil fields, applications generally for removal of restrictions in those nations were held in the Department until the receipt of the report of that examination, and when shown to be outside of that field the restric- tions were removed. Since April 26 last the applications for removal of restrictions are passed on without much delay. Senator Long. When an application is rejected here by an agent has his action ever been disapproved ? Inspector Wright. No, sir; I do not recollect of any. Senator Long. Then what necessity is there for the approval of the Secretary ? Why not have the whole matter determined here by the agent ? Inspector Weight. The Secretary, as I have always understood, has considered that matters in the Territory requiring his approval and for which he was responsible must be submitted to him. Senator Long. The law now requires the submission to the Secre- tary of the Interior. 450 FIVE OIVILIZED TRIBES. Inspector Wright. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What necessity is there for that action by the Sec- retary if the action here is always approved outside of the oil fields? Inspector Wright. I do not Know that I could answer that ques- tion. That is a matter for Jie Secretary. The Chairman. Let me supplement that. In your judgment, could not the final determination of these matters be made here by officers properly qualified as well as to hare the final action made in Washington, thus avoiding, perhaps, unnecessary delay ? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir. i beHeve that the secretary or the^ President could designate some one to act here for the Secretary, on the ground that a great deal of delay and friction — and the conse- quent feeling — that exists throughout the Territory might be avoided. The Chairman. And in your judgment, would not that course be equally as beneficial as the course at present pursued ? Inspector Wright. If the Secretary saw proper. Senator Brandegee. If we change the present law, so that there shall be an officer here who could finally determine these cases of appli- cation, do you not think it would work better than to have the law as it is now, where applications have to be forwarded to Wash- ington ? Inspector Wright. If they could be removed in that way, so that an officer could be authorized by law to act here Senator Brandegee. Congress can remedy it, can it not, if it wants to? Inspector Wright. Yes. Senator Long. You think that would be better? Inspector Wright. It would unquestionably expedite the con- sideration of matters. Senator Long. And the service would be just as good as now? Inspector Wright. If the law would authorize the Secretary to place some officer here whom he desired to act for him on the ground it would expedite matters materially. Senator Long. Suppose the law should authorize the Indian agent here to do this without any approval by the Secretary? Inspector Wright. I would not approve of the Indian agent being the final judge of matters. Senator Long. Suppose the law gave that power to the Indian inspector ? Inspector Wright. I should most certainly oppose that, but I should have some one here independent of the inspector or agent who should represent the Government as a final officer to pass upon matters, and Ibelieve it would be better still if there were a commis- sion of two or three men instead of one single officer. It might not be deenaed advisable to place such authority in the hands of one man. Now I wish on behalf of the Department and of the office here to say a few words on this matter of removal of restrictions on the sale of Indian lands. There has been a good deal said here to the effect that the only argument that could be advanced, largely, for not removing the restrictions was in order that employees of the Department might hold their positions. It seems to me that such an argument is not to be considered at all. The different agreements with these different tribes pro-vided that at specific times and at the expiration of certain periods the restrictions should be removed. As 1 understand it, the riVB CIVILIZED TBIBB8. 451 Department last year had no objection if Congress saw fit to remove the restrictions from all except full bloods, excepting the home- steads and the property of minors, of course, and the lands covered by oil leases or the oij fields. There have been very few restrictions removed by applications covering the lands of full bloods. In the Indian Appropriation bill last year there were some restrictions removed not only upon the sur- plus, but upon the homesteads of certair full bloods in the Cherokee Nation. I have been directed by the Department to ascertaia what disposition those full bloods made of those lands, if any. That law provided that all restrictions upon the alienation or leasing of lands in the case of certain of the full-blood Indians may be removed, which it is considered covered their homesteads, because it does not exempt them, and ui every.instance in the case of all of those full bloods I find that they were charged about $50 apiece to get their restrictions re- moved by a party who held a power of attorney from them to transact all their business, and he had all of their land, in some instances before their restrictions had been removed, and in no snstance did he pay them within a third of what the land was con- iidered worth by appraisers sent out from the office. Senator Brandegee. How many of those cases were there? Inspector Wright. Sixteen. Senator Long. Was that in the appropriation bill of last session ? Inspector Wright. Yes. I have here a report of the appraiser sent out to examine those lands to ascertain what disposition was made of them. Senator Brandegee. What kind of lands were they? Inspector Wright. Lands of different characters. Senator Brandegee. Any of them mineral? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir. Here is a case where 130 acres was sold for $2,350. There is an oil lease on that land. There are 28 producing wells on it. The foreman of the company that have that oil lease estimates a present production of 1,750 barrels a day, of which 1,000 barrels run to a pipe-line. The allottee's interest at a royalty of ten per cent from that oil, if it ran every day in the year, at a price of 39 cents a barrel, would be about $14,000 a year. The Chairman. But the allottee under the present conditions could not receive that, could he ? Is not that in the oil field? Inspector Wright. Yes. He had a lease on it, and the lease was one approved by the Department. When the land is sold, the lease is sold with the land. The lowest estimate made by an oil man was $25,000 and the highest $50,000; but it was sold for $2,350. Senator Brandegee. Do you know the man who sold it ? Inspector Wright. No, sir; I do not know the person. It was not a man, but a woman. I have another case of an Indian woman whose restrictions were removed. She had never made application for the removal of her restrictions and did not know they were removed. ' She was a feeble-minded woman. Her land was sold for $1,500. She was offered at that time $3,000 for it by the party who had the oil lease on it and she would not take it. She got $575 in the last tnree months in which she held it. The party to wnom she sold the land for $1,500 gave her $200 and told her that he would keep the other $1,300 for her, as it would be taken away from her if she kept it. She is to-day 452 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBE8. sick in a hut without even a window in that hut, and she is lying on the floor without a cent in the world. Senator Beandegee. Will you not give the stenographer the names of both those women? Inspector Wright. Yes, I will give the con*iittee a complete report of those matters. Senator Beandegee. What investigation did you make upon which these facts are based? Inspector Wright. I first ascertained from the records of the Dawes Commission the degree of blood that those people were. I ascer- tained that they were all full bloods. Then I ascertained from the Dawes Commission the description of their allotments, and then I ascertained Irom the court records what had been sold. Then I had a man to go and examine the land to see what it was worth and to see the conditions and surrounding circumstances and also to see the Indians. That was the manner in which I pursued my investigation. Inspector Wright submitted particulars of the 16 cases above men- tioned, with the names of the Indians, the reports of the Examiner, and a communication from the Commissioner to the Five Civihzed Tribes, as follows: Department of the Inteeiob, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muscogee, Ind. T. , September 20, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory, Muscogee, Ind. T. Dear Sir: In reply to your letter of September 17, you are advised that the following persons appear upon the approved partial roll of citizens of the Cherokee Nation. The number opposite which their names appear on said roll and the quantum of Indian blood possessed by them is indicated opposite their respective names: Name. RoU No. Blood. Name. Roll No. Blood. Annip. Pntts 28935 20001 28500 23332 15220 20399 16211 18665 Full. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Halt. FuU. NeUiemoks 6179 29525 18003 6316 18108 6441 26407 6291 Full. Sam Spade Charley Ellis Do. TillTnan England ^... Taylor Soldier Do. Alexander Proctor Do. Do. Sarah Ooyusuttali Tyler Tilden Do. Betsy Galcatctier. Lewis Dragger Do. Do. Keapectfully, Letter from Commissioner dated September 28, description of land allotted. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. I gives post-office addresses and Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November 10, 1906. Dana H. Kelsbt, United States Indian Agent, Muscogee, Ind. T. Sir: Inclosed herewith you will find report on the sale of Betsy Galcatcher, Sarah Oo-yu-sut-tah, Famous Dew, Alexander Proctor, Lizzie Sunday, Tyler Tilden, Sam Spade, and Ann Potts,tracts of land; also the particulars of the sale and the present value of the land. Respectfully submitted. Arthur Clark, Your representative. PIVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. 453 Betsy Galcatcheb, Oaks, Ind. T. (130 Acres). Sold for $2,350. Warranty deed to Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah, Ind. T., for $2,350; deed executed June 22, 1906; recorded at Nowata June 23, 1906. Quit claim, deed from Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah, Ind. T., to W. L. Mays, of Pryor Creek, Ind. T., for $1 and other considerations; deed executed June 22, 1906; deed recorded at Nowata, Ind. T., June 23, 1906. From an agricultural standpoint this land is pasture land, worth $15 an acre. Oil lease No. 1456, to John T. Furlong. Twenty-eight producing wells on this property, eight of which are flowing wells to-day, 20 of which are being pumped. The foreman of this, oil lease estimated present production at 1,750 barrels daily. One thousand barrels run to pipe line. Allottee's interest at one-tenth royalty, at 39 cents a barrel, would equal $39 per day, or $14,245 a year. By reference to plat you will see that the Delia M. Allen land and the Lula Vann land lies just west and north of the Galcatcher land. Delia M. Allen leased her land to The Devonian Oil Company for a bonus of $75 per acre and one-tenth royalty for the 80 acres. Lula Vann, freedwoman, sold her land in fee to Robert Mooney, of Nowata, Ind. T., for $10,000 cash. The lowest estimate made by oil men in the vicinity for the fee simple value of the Galcatcher land was $25,000. The highest estimate was $50,000. In a personal interview with Betsy Galcatcher she said that her name was placed on the bill to have her restrictions removed without any authority from her and she knew nothing of it; that Jesse E. Bristow, of Pryor Creek, Ind. T., came to her and wanted buy her land for $1,000, and he assured her that her land was worth no more. He took her to Pryor Creek to get the money and make out the papers. Bristow gave her $25 to pay her expenses in Pryor Creek for one week while he went to see some more people to buy their land. While she was in Pryor Creek Mr. Samuel, treasurer of Pryor Creek (that is what she says), asked her and Lizzie Sunday to go to a show at Vinita. Just as they were getting on the train Will Foreman, first cousin of Betsy Galcatcher, jumped off and asked where they were going. They said to Vinita. Foreman got on the train and begged Betsy Galcatcher not to sell the land to the Pryor Creek people, as they were trying to swindle her. Mr. Samuels tried to get Will Foreman to keep quiet. Said that we will go to the bank as soon as" we get to Vinita and borrow the $1,000 and pay you for the land right at once, but I refused and went back to Pryor Creek. On Friday morning Will Foreman and I got on the train and started for home. (This was the second time I had ever been on a train.) Will Foreman said that we would have to change cars at Wagoner on our way home, but when we got off the train we were in Fort Smith, Ark. That night we took another train and got off this train when we reached Tuskahoma, Ind. T., where Mr. Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah, met us and told me that the Pryor Creek people had a half dozen men out hunting me to make me sign the deed for $1,000. We left there on Saturday evening and went to Poteau, Ind. T. Sunday evening we got on the train and went to a little station called Shady Point and stayed there two or three days, and then I said I was going home. They said they would take me home, but when we got off the train we were at Mena, Ark. We stayed there one night and the next morning went to Westville, Ind. T., where Mr. Reed said he found out the papers were all right and that I could sign the deed. I told my cousin Will Foreman that I would not sdl my homestead, only my surplus land. When the deed was made out they gave it to me to read, but I could not under- stand it; but as Will Foreman, my first cousin, had told me that my homestead would not be in the deed and that he was trying to keep me from being cheated I believed that it was not there and signed the deed. Mr. Reed and Will Foreman both told me that my land was poor stony land and not worth any more than what was being paid for it. At Mena, Ark., they told me my name had been put by somebody on a bill to have my restrictions removed. They also told me there were no oil wells on my land. After I was paid for the land and reached home I received a check for $625, oil royalty. I then went up to see the land, which I would have done before if I had had the money. When I saw the land afterwards with all the wells on it I could have cried my eyes out. I did not think that Will Foreman, who kept telling me all the time that he did not wish to see any kinfolk of his robbed, would help cheat me as he did. Betsy Galcatcher is a Cherokee citizen, said to be a half-blood, talks English fairly well, but can talk the Cherokee language much better, can read and write English, but very poorly, is married to a Cherokee full-blood. 454 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Ann Potts, Hulbeet, Ind. T. Allotmmt.—N. J of SW. i of sec. 20, twp. 24 N., R. 13 E., 80 acres. Sold for $550. Ann Potts sold the above land to Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah, Ind. T., on June 22 1906; deed recorded at Claremore, Ind. T., July 2, 1906. ' Same land from Guy L. Reed, a single man, of Tahlequah, Ind. T., warranty deed for $1,770; deed executed July 6, 1906; recorded July 7, 1906, at Bartlesville, Ind. T. Same land and 110 acres more in same section sold by A. D. Morton and wife to the Prairie Oil and Gas Company for $5,700; deed executed July 23, 1906; recorded July 30, 1906. This land is rolling prairie land, is IJ miles from the town of Ramona, Ind. T. It ia worth $25 an acre for agricultural purposes. In prospecting for oil the wells drilled to the north and south have been dry ones. In a personal interview with Ann Potts, who is a full-blood Cherokee, she said that she had never asked or employed any one to get her restrictions removed, and they were removed, she says, without my knowledge. I was living at the town of West- ville, and Bill Glory, a Cherokee, of Tahlequah, came to me and wished to buy my land for Mr. Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah. He took me to Fort Smith, Ark., and kept me at the Hotel Henry for a week waiting to see it the papers were all right. I had to stay, as I had m> money to get away with. I told him I did not wish to sell my homestead. He said I would not have to and they would give me $550 for my surplus land which was near Bartlesville. I saw the deed when they made it out, but was unable to understand what the land description meant. I am 22 years of age; I can read and write English, but not very well. I had never sold any land before and had no knowledge of what the Bartlesville land wag worth. I have some land down near Bunch, Ind. T., for which I made contract with Mr. Cox, of the firm of Cox & Coursey, of Tahlequah, to sell to him at $1 per acre. I have never made the deed to it to Mr. Cox. I was 19 years old when I made the contract with Mr. Cox for the 40 acres near Bunch, Ind. T. The deed from Ann Potts to Guy L. Reed included her homestead. Sam Spade, Welling, Ind. T, AMoimerU.— In Sec. 20, Twp. 24 N., R. 13 E., 80 acres. This land was sold by Samuel Manus, guardian of Sam Spade, a minor of Tahlequah, Ind. T., by order of the United States Court, for $1,330.52, to A. D. Morton, of Ramona, Ind. T. Deed executed July 19, 1906; recorded July 30, 1906, at Bartlesville, Ind. T. Same land and 110 acres more in the same section sold by A. D. Morton and wife to the Prairie Oil and Gras Company for $5,700; deed executed July 23, 1906; recorded July 30, 1906, at Bartlesville. This land is rolling prairie land, IJ miles from the town of Ramona, Ind. T. It is worth $25 an acre for agricultural purposes. In prospecting for oil the wells drilled to the north and south are dry. Since the above transaction, Samuel Manus, guardian of Sam Spade, has died. In an interview with Mrs. Manus, who is a Cherokee full-blood, said that some men came from Ramona and said that they could get the restrictions of Sam Spade removed and that they could also get an order from the court to sell the land at a good price, that Mr. Manus was willing, and that after the restrictions were removed he sold the land belonging to Sam Spade for $1,330 and some cents. John Spade, a full-blood Cherokee, father of Sam Spade, by the interpreter said that his son's restrictions were removed without his knowledge or consent. Sarah Oo-yu-sut-tah, Oaks, Ind. T. Allotment being in Sec. 13, Twp. 26 N., R. 16 E., 50 acres. Eight flowing wells. Two hundred barrels per day run to pipe line. One-tenth royalty would produce to allottee at 39c. per barrel $2,847 per year. The foreman of this property said the fee simple was worth $10,000. All good rich bottom land, flowing water all the year. Sold by Sarah Oo-yu-sut-tah on August 6, 1906, for $1,500; recorded at Nowata August 18, 1906, to Johnson Palling and wife of Vinita, Ind. T. Johnson Falling and wife sold as follows: one-fourth interest to John S. Thompson for $375; T. M. Buffington, one-fourth interest for $375; L. W. Bufiington, one-fourth interest for $375, Deeds executed August 7, 1906; recorded August 8, 1906, at Nowata. Oil lease No. 1,562 to Morris L. Painter, et al. Property easily worth $10,000. PIVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. 455 In a personal interview with Sarah Oo-yn-sut-tah, who lives on Saline Creek, nine QUes northwest of Oaks, Ind. T., she says that a man came from Vinita, Ind. T., and (ought her property. He gave her only $20. She swore to the deed in her cabin before , yoimg white man who came with the man who bought her land. She maintained his statement through the whole interview, and she also stated that she knew nothing if her restrictions being removed, had never asked for their removal. She lives in a one-room log house with no windows; the only furniture are 5 chairs md a rough board table; there was a small canvas trunk in the room worth $2 or $3. Jhe was sick at the time, lying on a bundle of old bedding on the floor. She said she lad never sold any land before in her life and that there was no one present in the room vhen the land was sold but two white men and the interpreter, David Fields, of Oaks, [nd. T. She has four grown-up children and two minor children; she does her trading it Oaks, Ind. T. Mr. N. M. Avers, dealer in general merchandise at Oaks, Ind. T., said that he had )ffered Sarah Oo-yu-sut-tah $3,000 for the land, that he was authorized to make the )fter by John Rial, of Nowata, one of the lessees of her land, but she refused to take it. Ee afterwards heard that at the solicitation of "old man" Wyckliffe that she had sold ;he land to Johnson Falling, of Vinita, Ind. T., that Falling paid her the whole amount n twenty gold pieces. Ayers said she spent $102 of this at one time for groceries, with which she fed the Dherokees of her neighborhood for two weeks. She also purchased two horses at 3iloam Springs, Ark., and a wagon, two saddles, harness, a fiddle, and hardware, her ion-in-law and daughter-in-law being at Siloam Springs with her. She gave Rome jochran, for a piece of land which he was squatting oa but had no legal title for it, P500. It is also said that she gave $500 more for a piece of land on the edge of Elm prairie to a Cherokee full blood. She answered our questions very reluctantly. Mr. Thomas P. Roach, the inter- preter, and myself being entire strangers to her, she seemed afraid of us. Sarah Oo-yu-sut-tah is a full blood Cherokee woman and very ignorant. Alexander Peoctor, Spavinaw, Ind. T. Allotment being in sees. 6 and 7, twp. 26 N., R. 17 E. Alexander Proctor sold to W. L. Mays, of Pryor Creek, and Guy L. Reed, of Tahle- juah, Ind. T., the 40 acres described in the plat for $1,000; deed executed June 22, L906; deed recorded at Nowata, Ind. T., June 25, 1906. Land leased to the Eclipse Oil Company, No. 1960, of Blairsville, Pa. There are 7 producing wells on this tract. This land is worth $20 an acre from an agricultural standpoint. Produces 1,000 barrels of oil per week. The fee simple of this land is worth $8,000. Alexander Proctor's land in section 12, township 22 N., range 21 E., is all upland, of srhich 8 acres can be cultivated, the remaining 12 acres being rocky land covered with ;imber. This piece of land is worth $6 to $8 per acre. Alexander Proctor was not at home, having gone west of Pryor Creek, and will be back lext week. Famous Dew, Tahlequah, Ind. T. Allotment being in sec. 13, twp. 25 N., R. 16 E. 50 acres. Famous Dew sold the SW. i of SE. i and SE. J of NW. i of SE. } of sec. 13, Tp. 25 N., R. 16 E., comprising 50 acres, to Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah, Ind. T., for $1,000; leed executed June 22, 1906; deed recorded at Nowata, Ind. T., June 23, 1906. Guy L. Reed, of Tahlequah, Ind. T., by quit-claim deed sold to W. L. Mays, of Pryor jreek, Ind. T., for $1 and other valuable consideration; deed executed June 22, 1906; leed recorded at Nowata, Ind. T., June 23, 1906. From an agricultural view this land is worth $20 per acre. Oil lease, No. 1964, to The Chelsea Oil Company, of Chelsea, Ind. T. The Dew land is in the proven oil territory. There are now 12 producing wells on the Daffenbaugh and Lane tract lying just west )f this land. (See plat.) Griffin & Company gave to Daffenbaugh and Lane $50 per acre bonus and one-eighth •oyalty for their lease. The Chelsea Oil Company commenced November 5, 1906, drilling three wells to )ffset the Griffin & Company wells. I would place the fee simple valuation of this Dew tract at $8,000. Famous Dew has also sold "as sole and surviving heir of Rachel , of Oaks, Cherokee Nation, Ind. T.," for $750 to him paid by Samuel Foreman, of Tahlequah, [nd. T., and W. L. Mays, of Pryor Creek, Ind. T. (See plat.) 456 FIVE CIVILJZED TRIBES. This land is also in proven territory and worth anywhere from $3,000 to $5,000 as an oil prospect. I found Famous Dew living at the house of Dave Rodgers, southwest of Oaks, Ind. T. He said that he had never asked any one to have his restrictions removed, and knew nothing about them being removed until Guy I^ Reed came to him and offered him $1,000 for the land. He said he knew it was near the oil regions, but that they told him it was only worth $1,000. He has most of the $1,000 in the Ijank at Tahlequah. Famous Dew is a full-blood Cherokee, 23 years of age, and does not speak English. Sam Foreman, of Tahlequah, was Guy L. Reed's interpreter. Lizzie Sunday, Oaks, Ind. T. Allotment being sec. 7, twp. 26 N., R. 14 E. 80 acres. Lizzie Sunday sold this land by warranty deed to Jesse E. Bristow, of Pryor Creek, for $450; deed executed June 22, 1906; recorded at Bartlesville July 11, 1906. Oil lease to Arthur W. Lewis, No. 966. This land is prairie land and a little broken, worth $20 an acre. No oil wells near, but supposed to be in oil territory. In a personal interview with Lizzie Sunday she said she never knew anything about her restrictions being removed, never asked any one to have them removed. Jesse E. Bristow, of Pryor Creek, came to her and wished to buy her land. He told her that her restrictions had been removed and said the land might be worth $450 that was east of Bartlesville and not fit for a goat ranch. John Leach was the interpreter for Bristow. There was some money due from the oil lease, the annual rental which Bristow promised to send me, and he signed a paper to that effect, but it has never come. Lizzie Sunday is a full-blood Cherokee and can not speak English. She has not sold her land in sees. 5 and 6, twp. 19 N., R. 23 E. Tylbk Tn^DEN, Rose, Ind. T. Allotmml.— In sec. 28, Twp- 26 N., R. 13 E., 80 acres. Tyler Tilden and wife, Efiza Tilden, sold the S. i of NW. i, sec. 28, to Philipp W. Samuel, of Pryor Creek, Ind. T., for $900. Warranty deed executed July 11, 1906; recorded at Bartlesville, Ind. T., July 13, 1906. Oil lease, No. 2063, to the Bell Oil Company. This land is worth $20 an acre from an agricultural standpoint. There is a gas-well one-half mile north and oil wells 1 mile west. This land might develop into an oil proposition, being so near other wells. I think, taking into consideration this fact and its agricultural value, that it is worth three times this $900. Mr. Tuden states that he never asked or employed any one to have his restrictions removed; that a man named Whitaker wanted $70 of him for getting his restrictions removed, but that he had never employed Whitaker or any one else. Department op the Intbbioe, United States Indian Sbkvicb, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November 1%, 1906. United States Indian Inspector fob Indian Territory. Sir: George W. Bark and wife, liillie, sold 75.34 acres for $750. Post-office, locust Grove, Ind. T. Record at Pryor Creek shows: January 1, 1906, George W. Bark and wife, Lillie, gave power of attorney to W. T. Whitaker, of Pryor Creek, appointing him as their attorney in fact with full power to sell or lease their land. June 21, 1906, filed this day warrantee deed from George W. Bark and wife, Lillie, by W. T. Whitaker, their attorney in fact, to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, considera- tion, $750, conveying the following land: Lot 4 less 1 acre reserved for school, and SB. i of the SW. i of the NW. i, and the W. i of the SW. i of the NW. i, and the NE. i of the SW. i of the NW. i of section 4, township 20, range 18, containing 75.34 acres. George W. Bark. Lillie (her x mark) Babk. June 22, 1906, warrantee deed filed this day from George W. Bark and wife, Lillie, to W. A. Graham, conveying the same described land, consideration, $753.40. This is a piece of fine agricultural prairie land located 5 miles northwest of Chouteau, value, $2,000. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 457 September 3, 1906, warrantee deed from George W. Bark and wife, Lillie, to J. 0. Hogan, of Pryor Creek, conveys 40 acres in section 33, township 20, range 22, for $60. This is timber upland, is rocky, and only suitable for pasture land; value, $200. Personal examination, November 8, 1906: Mr. George W. Bark states that he sold this tract of land to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, for $20 per acre. He got no money at the time he sold; he got a team of horses, old wagon, and harness for $276 and a saddle for $38. He owed Mr. Whitaker $200 at that time. On October 23, 1905, he signed a contract with W. T. Whitaker to have him assist to sell his land. He wanted him to do so. Whitaker charged $50 for getting his restriction sremoved. Three weeks afterwards he was paid $25 in cash, and after that he received $69.50 cash. The remainder he took out m trade out of Whitaker's store. At the time he signed the deed he supposed he was only selling his surplus land for $753.40. He was told he was getting $20 per acre. The allottee states he can read and write. He was refused permission to read the deed before he signed it. Afterward he found out that he had sold his homestead. They told him the deed was only for his surplus land. He called on "Whitaker and asked him about it. Whitaker said he could not help him now; he had his deed. Hia remaining 40 acres surplus land in section 38, township 20, range 22, he has signed contract to sell to Ed. Crawford. They paid him $25, and when he makes a deed he is to be paid the remainder. Respectfully, A. G. McGrbgoh, Creek Land Appraiser. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November 12, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Tillman England, Peggs, Ind. T., 50 acres sold for $600. Record at Pryor Creek shows: Warrantee deed dated June 28, 1906, from Tillman England and wife, Mary, to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, conveying land as follows: 30 acres in section 8, township 21, range 19; 20 acres in section 17, township 21, range 19, consideration $60Q. This land ie located from one-fourth to one-half mile east of the town limits of Pryor Creek. The 30 acres in section 8, township 21, range 19, is worth $50 per acre — $1 ,500, and the 20 acres in section 17, township 21, range 19, is worth $75 per acre ($1,500) for town lots, or a total of $3,000 for the two tracts. The records do not show that the 40 acres in section 12, township 19, range 20, has been sold. Respectfully, A. G. McGregor, Creek Land Appraiser. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November 12, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Charles Ellis, of Dragger, Ind. T., 140 acres sold for $640. The records of Claremore show: June 21, 1906, warrantee deed from Charley Ellis, of Dragger, Ind. T., to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, conveying 140 acres in section 28, township 21, range 17; consideration $640. Description of land. — Upland prairie, gradually rolling, some rocky land on the south- west part; located 5 miles southeast of Claremore; value $2,100 — $15 per acre. Personal examination. — Charley Ellis states that he sold 40 acres of his surplus land to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, and was paid $450. He received $200 cash and about $250 in trade — $100 from Graham's store and $100 from Whitaker's store. Whitaker charged him $50 for removing restrictions. He did not owe Graham at the time he sold his land. He did owe Whitaker. He never asked Wliitaker to have his restrictions removed, and he never knew until now that he had sold more than 40 acres of land. The allottee can not speak, read, or write the English language. He was very much surprised when informed that the deed he gave W. A. Graham shows that he sold 140 acres. The 10 acres surplus land in section 10, township 19, range 20 are not shown to be sold on the records at Pryor Creek. Respectfully, A. G. McGregor, Creek Land Appraiser. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 30 458 riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, I Muscogee, Ind. T. , November 12, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: In the matter of the sale of the allotment of Lewis Dragger, of Dragger, Ind. T., recorded at Claremore, 80 acres sold for $700. June 21, 1906, warrantee deed from Lewis Dragger and wife, Nellie, to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, conveying 80 acres in section 20, township 21, range 17, located about 6 miles east of Claremore, by W. T. Whitaker, their attorney in fact; consideration $700. This includes 50 acres of surplus land and 30 acres homestead. Description of land. — Upland prairie, 40 acres in cultivation, some parts thin soil and rocky, value $1,400. I find no record of the sale of the lO acres in section 2, township 14, range 23. It is located in the mountain district and not very valuable. It may be recorded at Tahlequah. Personal examination. — Lewis Dragger states that he sold all his land — 90 acres— to W. T. Whitaker for $800. He received $100 in cash and he took all of the remain- der out in trade in the store. Mr. Whitaker wanted him to get his restrictions removed. He owed him at that time $150 for groceries and he got him to sign an agreement to sell his land when he got the restrictions removed (this was about one year before he sold the land) and then he compelled him to sell the land at the price he said it was worth. Mr. Lewis Dragger is postmaster at Dragger, Ind. T. Kespectfully, A. G. McGregor, Creek Land Appraiser, Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November 12, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Taylor Soldier, Locust Grove, Ind. T., 10 acres sold for $100. The records at Pryor Creek show: September 8, 1904, Taylor Soldier and wife, Nancy, sold to W. T. Whitaker 10 acres in section 17, township 21, range 19 for the sum of $100. Description of land. — Upland prairie, located one-third of a mile east of Pryor Creek worth $650. September 12, 1905, warrantee deed from Taylor Soldier to W. T. Whitaker, of Pryor Creek, conveys 40 acres in section 22, township 22, range 19; consideration $400. June 22, 1906, warrantee deed from Taylor Soldier and wife, Nancy, to W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek, conveying 10 acres in section 17, township 21, range 19, and 40 acres in section 22, township 22, range 19; consideration, $500. The value of the 40 acres in section 22, township 22, range 19 is $800. He states that he sold 10 acres near Pryor Creek and 40 acres more to W. A. Graham for $500. He got $120 cash and the balance they traded out of the store. He also sold 10 acren in section 14, township 19, range 21 for $1 per acre to Watt Mays. He further says that Mr. Whitaker got him to have his restrictions removed. Respectfully, A. 6. McGregor, Creelc Land Appraiser. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November 12, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Joshua Young, Salina, Indian Territory, sold 80 acres in section 17, towMhip 21, range 17, for $395. Records at Claremore show:, February 14, 1906, a power of attorney given by Joshua Young to W^ T. Whitaker, with full power to act for him. _ February 14, 1906, warrantee deed from Joshua Young, by his attorney in fact, W. T. Wliitaker, to W. A. Graham; consideration, $395. This includes 50 acres surplus and 30 acres homestead, all in section 17, township 21 north, range 17 east. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 459 July 11, 1906, Joshua Young, a single man, quitclaim deed to W. A . Graham, of Pryor Creek, for the above-described land — 80 acres; consideration, ($1) one dollar. The above land is upland prairie and worth for agricultural purposes $1,000. I was unable to find Joshua Young at home. He was temporarily absent. Respectfully, A. G. McGrbqok, Creek Land Appraiser, Department op thb Intemoe, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Mmcogee, Ind. T., November 12, 1906. Unttbd States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Carrie Downing, Locust Grove, Indian Territory, 70 acres, sold for $620. Record at Pryor Creek shows: June 23, 1906, warrantee deed from Carrie Downing, unmarried, of Locust Grove, Indian Territory, conveys the following: NW. J of the SW. i, W. i of the SW. i, and the NE. i of the SW. } of section 26, township 21, range 19, 70 acres, to Mr. W. A. Graham, of Pryor Creek; consideration, $620. June 21, 1906, warrantee deed from Carrie Downing, of Locust Grove, by W. T. Whitaker, her attorney in fact, conveys the above-described property to W. A. Graham; consideration, $620. (Signed) Carrie Downing, By W. T. Whitaker, Iter attorney. (No witnesses to this deed.) Description of land. — Upland prairie, some rocky land on the northern part, worth $1,050— $15 per acre. Personal examination. — She states that she sold 70 acres to Whitaker for $495. He paid her $309 cash, and the remainder she traded in the store. Whitaker helped to get her restrictions removed. She supposed she had paid him as much as other peo- ple paid him, which was $50. He told her he was paying $20 per acre. The allottee is a young woman 19 years old last July, and can not speak, read, or write the English language. The records at Pryor Creek do not show that she has transferred any more of her land. She owns 20 acres in section 34, township 21, range 20, which is rocky timber land, value $100, and 10 acres in section 19, township 20, range 21, which is medium fair timber land, value $75. Respectfully, A. G. McGregor, Oreeh Land Appraiser. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Muscogee, Ind. T., November IS, 1906. Unpted States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Alexander Proctor, Spavinaw, Ind. T., 40 acres, sold for $400. Records at Pryor Creek show: Warrantee deed filed May 1, 1906, from Alexander Proctor and wife to Pryor Creek Real Estat* Company, and Ella Crav/ford, of Pryor Creek, conveys 40 acres in section 17, township 23 north, range 19 east. I have not examined this land. It is located east of Tahlequah. July 23, 1906, warrantee deed from Alexander Proctor and wife to S. H. Mays and J. C. Hogan conveying two 10-acre tracts in sections 7 and 8, township 22, range 17; consideration, $100. Description of the above 20 acres — upland timber, is worth $240. The 20-acre tract in section 12, township 22, range 21, is upland timber. About half is very rocky. It is worth $100. I find no record of the sale of this land at Pryor Creek. I was unable to find Mr. Proctor at home. Respectfully, A. G^ McGregor, Creeh Land Appraiser. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Union Agency, Mmcogee, Ind. T., November 1$, 1906. United States Indian Inspector for Indian Territory. Sir: Nellie Hicks, of Pryor Creek, Ind. T., 90 acres, sold for $438. Records at Claremore show: March 26, 1906, warranty deed filed this day from Nellie Hicks to Pryor Creek Real Estate Company, of Pryor Creek, conveying 20 acres in section 16, township 21, range 17 for $137. 460 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. May 4, 1906, warranty deed from Nellie Hicke to J. S. Calfee, of St. Louis, Mo., conveying the same 20 acres, consideration, $300. July 7, 1906, warranty deed from Nellie Hicks to J. S. Caltfee, of St. Louis, Mc, conveying the remaining 70 acres in section 15, township 21, range 17, consideration $1. Description of land. — Upland prairie, no improvensents, worth for agricultural purposes, $1,350. I was unable to find the allottee at Pryor Creek. She was reported to have gone north on a short visit. Respectfully, A. G. McGeegoe, Creek Land Appraiser. Inspector Weight. At the time that the lands were sold by private sale in the Creek Nation, the sales of which were disapproved by the Secretary of the Interior, and which lands were afterwards sold by sealed bids, a comparative statement would show what the lands sold for under sealed bids after advertisement as against the previous private sales. As to the policy of the removal of restrictions, I have reported to the Department that should Congress deem it advisable that the restrictions be removed from all Indians except fuU bloods, and from all those who are not of Indian blood — that is to say, intermarried whites The Chairman. AU restrictions removed ? Inspector Wright. Yes; all restrictions, so far as concerns inter- married whites who are not of Indian blood, including negroes Senator Long. Are not all restrictions already removed from those? Inspector Wright. Not as to the homesteads. Senator Long. The act of 1904 removed them from aU, except homesteads ? Inspector Wright. Yes. As to the fuU bloods, there are a good many on the Dawes Commission rolls as full bloods who are not full bloods, and who are competent in the judgment of the agent and employees of the service here, for instance, myself, to have their restrictions removed, if that law did not prohibit the removal from those classed as fuU bloods from the rolls of the Dawes Commission. Inasmuch as those roUs must govern, and they are on there as full bloods, therefore their applications can not be considered. No doubt there are people on that roll whose restrictions might be removed. My suggestion would be, as I have stated to the Department, that the full bloods' applications might be considered in the same manner as they are now, and restrictions removed in the case of such fuU bloods as seemed to be competent. That would eliminate those on the rolls as full bloods but who are not so in fact. As to the other class, the ignorant full bloods, I would suggest that they be allowed to have their lands sold for them in some manner, eith» by sealed bids or at auction sale, but not to remove the restrictions indiscriminately. They are at present land-poor; they have a great deal more land than they cultivate or ever will cultivate, and they should be permitted, I believe, to dispose of part of their land. It is incumbent upon Congress to ascertain whether they are competent. It would seem that in justice and fair dealing their interests should be considered. If it is borne in mind that they are citizens of the United States, and the time can not be extended, that is a legal proposition; but, if the competency and welfare of the Indians are to be considered, then it seems to me there should be some means adopted whereby these ignorant fuU-blood Indians, of whom you gentlemen do not see macv FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 461 here — those living back in the woods and in the wilderness — should be permitted in some way to part with some of their lands and, with the proceeds, to improve their homesteads and their homes. As to the manner in which it should be done, that is a matter for consider- ation, but it seems to me that the money could be used for getting them a home and after that they could take care of themselves. Senator Long. You have made these recommendations in your annual report? Inspector Wright. No, sir; in a private report. Senator Long. Separate from your annual report? Inspector Wright. I made no recommendations in my annual report. The Chairman. In regard to the mixed bloods, what recom- mendations did you make? Inspector Wright. I suggested in the cases of mixed bloods in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, where they had 160 acres, whether that is not too large for a homestead. Forty acres here is sufficient. Where the Incfians are found competent, restrictions might be removed in such cases. The Chairman. How would you deal with the surphis, in the matter of restrictions ? Inspector Wright. The surplus, now, in the case of the mixed bloods, is removed, and as for the full bloods, I would suggest that you let them either sell the land at auction to the highest bidder or, as I would have it, sell it under sealed bid. In that way competition is invited. Senator Long. The Creek lands were sold under the act of 1903, were they? Inspector Wright. Yes. Senator Long. Is that act still in force except as to full bloods ? Inspector Wright. Yes. Senator Long. Do you think that the provision of the act of 1906 forbidding any sale of the lands of full bloods should be amended? Inspector Wright. Yes. Senator Long. Permitting a sale under certain circumstances? Inspector Wright. Yes. In my judgment that law has been found to be undesirable in many respects, inasmuch as it permits the full blood to lease his land for. a year without the approval of the Department. The consequence is that no leases are being sub- mitted for the approval of the Department, and none are being made by the full bloods for longer than a year. They are getting nothing for their land, because they are told that they can lease their land only from one year to another. What they get does not support them. They are not even required to record that lease, and while making investigations as to vmether leases are made without ade- quate consideration, we found verbal leases and all kinds of leases, but could not disturb them because the leases are only for one year and from one year to another. It is a detriment to all concerned. Senator Brandegee. How recently did you make this report to the Secretary? Inspector Wright. About a week ago. Senator Long. It was made to the Secretary! Inspector Wright. Yes. Senator Brandegee. At his suggestion! 462 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Inspector Wright. Yes. Senator Long. You do not know whether it •will be printed or not? Inspector Wright. No, sir; it is a separate special report. Senator Long. But it was an official report made to the Secretary? Inspector Weight. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Under what date ? Inspector Wright. I can not recollect the date. Senator Long. Can you give us the exact date ? Inspector Wright. No ; I would have to look it up. Senator Long. Will you look up the date and give it to us? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir. You were asking for a map of the oil fields. The Chairman. Yes. Inspector Wright. This is the Osage Une [indicating] and the loca- tions of the wells are marked. The Chairman. On the Osage lands? Inspector Wright. Yes. I was required to make a report on matters over there. Those on the Osage hne have 680 acres in their lease. The Chairman. In the oil lease? Inspector Wright. Yes. The Chairman. We should like to hear your views in regard to the oil leases in the Five Civilized Tribes. Inspector Wright. The extent of leasing, and what has been done by the Department ? The Chairman. Yes. Inspector Wright. In the matter of oil leases in the Creek and Cherokee nations, the Creek and Cherokee agreements provide that allottees may lease their land for oil and for other minerals for a period not exceeding fifteen years, with the approval of the Secretary. Several coal leases have been taken in the Creek and Cherokee nations. Since February 14, 1903, when the oil leases were first made, there have been 10,270 oil leases filed with the Indian agent, of - which 427 have been approved by the Department to this date; 3,600 are pending in the agent's office, and 1,400 have been forwarded to the Department since the 1st of July last lor approval. Under instructions from the Department certain leases are sent up there for approval and are approved. Operators are then allowed sixty days to file a bond. But the Department has recently issued instructions that bonds could be forwarded after theleases are ready to be sent iip for approval. When the leases were first taken in the Creek and Cherokee nations here they were not filed with the Indian agents. Nearly all of that leasing was wild-cat leasing. In the fall of 1904 the Department issued an order that all oil leases that had been taken prior to that time must be ffied with the Indian agent wthin thirty days, otherwise they would not be considered. Indians were constantly complaining that they were not ffied with the agent or that the lessee was not taking any action. The thirty days expired on the 13th day of Octo- ber, 1904. As a consequence of that order there were approximately 2,000 leases ffied with the agent withm twenty da,ys. A great many of these leases had been taken over a year previous, and there are veiy few leases wl^n ffied with the agent, as Mr. ^elsey will ex- plam, that are in shape to go up to the Department. A great source FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 463 of delay in the consideration of a lease is that parties do not file the necessary papers. Under the ruling of the Department they are required to drill a well before the expiration of twelve months from the filing of the bond, because many Indians complained that adjoining leases were being operated and theirs were not. Conse- quently they were not getting their royalty. Therefore the parties must within twelve months attend to this matter. The Chairman. I understand that when a lease is taken or applica- tion is made it must be shown to the satisfaction of the representa- tives of the Department of the Interior that $5,000 cash for each lease is deposited. Inspector Wright. No, sir. That was required at the start, but that has since been modified. The Secretary requires a showing that the parties are at least able to operate the lease, if they get it, and they make such financial showing as they can. The Chairman. There is at present, then, no regulation requiring any deposit? Inspector Wright. No, sir; not at the present time. The Chairman. When was that changed or abrogated ? Inspector Wright. I can not recollect. It is a long time ago. Agent Kelset. March 20, 1905, I think. I am not certain that that is the date, but I can get it definitely. The Chairman (to Inspector Wright). I understand that the lessee has to make a financial showing that he is able to operate the lease. Now, what sort of a financial showing is required to be made? Suppose,. for instance, the case of a lease of 120 acres of land? Inspector Wright. He is required to show what available means he has at hand, or what property he has at hand, or what money he could get, to develop the property if he gets it. When parties have shown that they were worth $15,000 or $20,000 they have got it. The Chairman. How much was the minimum amount on, say, 120 acres? Inspector Wright. I do not know that any minimum amount has been fixed. It is now more a matter of the standing of the parties and their ability to get money to operate the lease. The Chairman. But you must have some standard on which you go, do you not? Inspector Wright. Yes. We require them now to file a statement with the indorsement of some bank officer showing the amount of money they have on deposit. The Chairman. Suppose they have not any on deposit? Inspector Wright. I do not recollect that there were any of that kind. The Chairman. Do your regulations require that they have soine on deposit ? Inspector Wright. Yes. The Chairman. How much? Inspector Wright. I do not know that there is any amount stated. The regulations now simply require them to show what amount they have. The Secretary first considers the application, and I think now that he would give the maximum acreage (4,800 acres) to parties that show that they have at their command $40,000. The Chairman. Suppose a man has not at command $40,000. Suppose he is not a capitalist, but wants to enter on the oil busiaess — 464 PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. he is an oil driller, we will say — perhaps he has nothing but his muscle and perhaps the assistance of a friend who has a string of tools. How is such a man to get a lease ? He can make no financial showing. He has nothing but his experience and good character, and wants to come in where he thinks he can make a stake for himself. Is there any way in which a man of that sort can get in ? Inspector Weight. If he could not show anything at all, he could not. The Chairman. If he could not show anything at all ? Inspector Wright. No, sir. The Chairman. Can you say on what theory that ruling or regula- tion is based ? Inspector Wright. That is a matter for the Secretary. The Chairman. You do not care to speak personally about it? Inspector Wright. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. At present the applicants have to have this money in the bank on deposit ? Inspector Wright. They make what showing they can. They show what money they have on deposit, and we send that up and ask if that is satisfactory to the Department. Senator Brandegee. But suppose they have no money in the bank, but have resources elsewhere ? Inspector Wright. I do not recollect any that have not had any resources in the bank. Senator Brandegee. Assuming, now, that some one comes to you showing that he has no money in the bank ? Inspector Wright. I simply send his case to the Department. Senator Brandegee. Is there any rule requiring that the applicant shall have money in the bank? Inspector Wright. I can not say as to that, because frequently we get notice from the Department to send leases up ; that the party has made satisfactory showing to the Department as to the financial matter. Such cases very frequently happen. In those cases we are not required to know whether the parties have money in the bank or not. The Chairman. In forwarding these leases from the local office here, do the local authorities make a recommendation? Inspector Wright. Yes. The Chairman. Is it their practice, in making a favorable recom- mendation, to require as a part of the showing that there is money deposited in the bank? Inspector Wright. Yes ; the regulations of the Department require them to show that money is in the bank, and I do not recall that any leases have been asked to be forwarded by parties otherwise. The Chairman. Then, according to that, no leases would receive or could receive the approval of the local office unless there were a show- ing made by the applicant of money in the bank? Inspector Wright. Unless the Department The Chairman. I am not speaking of that. The local officers here would not report favorably or approve an application unless it showed that there was money deposited in the banls? Inspector Wright. There were some two or three instances m which I do not recollect that the papers stated that there was any money in the bank. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 465 Senator Brandegee. But I understand you to say that the regula- tions require that there shall be a showing of money in the bank? Inspector Weight. Yes, they do ; but there have been instruc- tions sent that papers be sent, and we have stated that the parties were known. The Chairman. In making your recommendation for a lease, say of 160 acres, how much of a deposit in the bank would you require on that lease? Inspector Wright. Well, we have not required any specific amount We just send up their application. The Chairman. But do you not make your recommendation here ? Inspector Weight. Yes. The Chairman. How much of a deposit in the bank does it require to receive favorable recommendation? Inspector Wright. I do not know that I could answer that ques- tion, because when it comes to me they have already shown. The Chairman. Well, let me become a little more specific. Sup- {)ose I, a stranger to you, had made an agreement with a man for a ease of 160 acres of land and I came and said to you that I was worth $10,000 and that I had $1,000 on deposit ia a bank, would or would not that lease receive favorable consid!^eration in the local office ? Inspector Wright. It would receive consideration here with the proviso that it was satisfactory to the Department. The Chairman. But I understand that you approve or disap- prove of the leases here? Inspector Wright. No. The Chairman. With what recommendation do you send them up? Inspector Weight. We send them up with a recommendation, but those applications are made to the Indian agent at first, and when they come to me they have been transmitted from the agent, and go through my office to the Department. The Chaieman. I understand that you are the ones who make the .recommendation to the Department? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir; but let me explain a little more. When these come to me they have already gone through the agent's office and are transmitted from my office to the Department; and I do not recall any instance where the leases did not show some money in the bank. The Chairman. What I am trying to ascertain is how much money in the bank is necessary to receive favorable consideration. Inspector Wright. I do not recall that a minimum amount has ever been fixed. The Chairman. Suppose you take this case: I come with a lease for approval; I show that I am worth $10,000, or 15,000, as a finan- cial showing, but that I have only $1,000 in the bank. Would that lease be forwarded to the Department with a favorable recom- mendation ? Inspector Wright. If the party showed that he had $5,000 at hand that he could use for the development of the lease, yes. The Chaieman. Do you require that all the financial showing is to be used in the development of the lease? Inspector Wright. No. The Chairman. I do not think I understand the situation, Mr. Wright, 466 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Inspector Weight. It is considered that a drill and well will cost from $1,000 to $2,500. I understand that in these deep wells the cost runs from $2,500 to $3,000. (That is what the oil men say.) The Secretary requires that these leases must show that they are taken in good faith, to be operated by the lessees, and that they intend to operate them themselves and that they have sufficient to start operations themselves if they get the lease, and that the appli- cation which they make shall state that they take this lease for the purpose of developing it themselves. Senator Beandegee. Does the applicant have to make a satement under oath? Inspector Weight. I think so. Senator Beandegee. Does he have to swear to the amount of his indebtedness ? Inspector Weight. No; I do not think that he does. Senator Beandegee. Then of what good is the showing? Inspector Weight. Well, , he makes his application upon the showing. Senator Beandegee. Suppose he has $5,000 in the bank and owes $15,000, and you certify that he has $5,000 in the bank, and the next day he draws it out and pays that amount on his bills, how does the money in the bank help to establish his credit? Inspector Weight. It does not. But you have to make some rule. Senator Beandegee. Well, but you should make a sensible one. Inspector Weight. The Secretary has required that when leases are made the parties should not be interested in more than 4,800 acres. Guffey and Bailey, of Pittsburg, took a large number of leases — nearly the 4,800 acres. They made their showing to the Department. They transferred those leases, sold them absolutely, to another party without consulting the Indian or consulting the Department. The Secretary'' directed me to ascertain whether any other transfers were made. I went to Pittsburg and I found one case where a man had made his financial showing, under oath, that he was worth $60,000, that he had $40,000 in the bank, that he was not an oil man himself, but had sufficient means, etc. His leases were recommended here for approval. He took 4,800 acres from the Indians, but the leases had not all been approved. He had made this previous showing. The investigation showed that that man was a young boy 22 years old, who did not have any money or property, and never did have any. He was a clerk in Mr. Barns- dall's office, and Mr. Barnsdall had gone to the bank and borrowed the money for thirty daj^s. This young man made the affidavit that he was worth $60,000, that he had $40,000 in the bank, and he considered that the lease he was asking for was worth $20,000. The Chaieman. In that case the requirement of the Department for a financial showing was absolutely futile, was it not? Inspector Weight. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. In that case Mr. BamsdaU, or whoever was oper- ating the lease, gave to the Indian the royalty? Inspector Weight. Yes. The Chaieman. The Indian received the same amount as if the young man in Pittsburg was all right? Inspector Weight. Yes; there was nothing wrong about it, except FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 467 that it was against the rule that one man should be interested in more than 4,800 acres. I have seen that a statement was made to this committee that applications for transfers of leases from one operator to another were not approved by the Department. I simply desire -to state, ss to that, that at the present time our records show that there have been 121 applications made to the Department for the transfer of leases — assignments to others. Seventy-six of those have been approved, the others are pending before the Department. Two applications have been disapproved. I desire further to say that I notice a statement was made to the committee that Indians were not permitted to operate their own leases where they saw fit — that is, to operate their own land for oil — and that the Indian agents stopped it where it was done. Our records fail to show any such thing. There has been no instance where any application was made by an allottee to operate his land, except recently, where a guardian for a minor desired to operate the land himself instead of leasing, and that is now pending before the Department. The Chairman. Are not the allotments subject to the personal use of the allottee in any way that he chooses to use them? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir; but the Department requires this, that if the allottee wishes to drill wells or work his allotment him- self he must file an afiidavit in the Department that he is doing that in good faith for himself and not as a subterfuge for somebody else, because the Perry Oil Company wiU not take oil from anybocU^ unless they have assurances either from the allottee or from the office that that party has a right to use it. If they apply to the Perry OU and Gas Company to run a pipe line, they wiU not run a pipe line until the party shows them a bul of sale showing that they are authorized and also show that it is not a subterfuge for somebody else. Senator Long. Can the allottee make a drilling contract on his own allotment ? Inspector Wright. That point has never been presented. I do not know whether he could do so or not. No apphcation has ever been made. Mr. J. J. Sullivan presented the following: SEGREGATED COAL LANDS, CHOCTAW NATION. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 16, 1908. To the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. Senatobs: In addressing your honorable committee yesterday on the question of schools, I digressed of necessity to show you that the school system in operation in towns like Bokoshe and Chant must always remain far behind the schools of other por- tions of the new State, owing to our unfortunate position in being placed on lands which have been segregated and set apart by Congress for future disposition, owing to its being underlaid with coal. The town of Bokoshe itself, which I represent, has a popu- lation of 1,000 people, has been in existence nearly six years, and was platted and set- tled on prior to the segregation of that land. There are now buildings erected on the site platted originally amounting in cash value to $45,000. We have five coal mines opened in our immediate neighborhood, three of which are in active operation and pro- ducing 300 tons of coal per day. We need some place where our people may erect houses to which they may secure titles. Being situated on segregated coal lands, there is no way by^which we can secure a title to a town lot or an acre of land legally. As a matter of fact, we can not even secure a title to the cemetery lots in which our loved ones are buried. We request Congress to order a survey of our town site and sell us our 468 FIVE CIVIIilZED TRIBES. lots on the same plan as was pursued in selling town sites to the people of Muskogee, McAlester, Wilburton, and other towns throughout the Territory. We ask no special favors, but we do request equal privileges with our sister towns. As conditions exist, we have nothing in sight from which to derive a revenue either for school, sanitary, or police purposes. Hence the great need of immediate legislative relief from Congress. The farmers living along the two belts of segregated lands in my neighborhood have asked me to speak to you of their grievances. I respectfully submit one or two of their grievances. It has been frequently stated upon the streets that the estimate I gave yesterday to your committee of the value of the surface of the coal lands was far too high. In answer to this, I beg to say that land speculators are buying up all the agri- cultural lands they can get hold of along the segregated belts at from $15 to $20 an acre, and they are getting it for far less than its actual value, owing to a peculiar condition of the Indians' powers of alienation, which prevents free and open competition in the pm^chase of Indian lands. I know of no agricultural lands in the segregated belts, nor lands owned by allotees, nor lands purchased by other people from allottees, that can be rented to-day for less than "a third and fourth" of the crop. In other words, if an acre of land produces a half bale of cotton, and cotton sells at ?50 a bale, the man with the hoe pays $6.25 per acre for rent. If he raises 40 bushels of corn per acre and sells it at 50 cents per bushel, he pays a cash equivalent of $6.50 per acre rent. I submit that this rent, if charged in the Northern States, where the fences, fruit trees, and outbuildings are permanent fix- tures, the farmhouses luxurious palaces as compared with the hovels in which our Territory farmers have to live, and their markets, I might say, right at their front door- were those farmers in Illinois or Iowa, and such exorbitant rent charged, he would buy out his landlord at any price, but here he can not buy at any price. He is at the mercy of the speculator. The sealed bid in the sale of Indian lands is a curse to the com- munity, in that it robs the Indian of the opportunity to sell his land to many competitors and denies the actual farmers who need a home the opportunity to offer in open market what he thinks the land is worth or what he can afford to give for it. On these segregated coal lands there are a large number of farms which were cleared prior to the segregation by Indians and white men holding under Indians. All these improvements were appraised by a commission appointed for that purpose, and at the final disposition the owners of these improvements will be. paid for these improve- ments. Now, as each of the citizens have taken their allotments they have moved to enter their homestead or their surplus land, and a large majority have sold their equity in the improvements owned by them in the lands previously held by them. These equities have in many cases drifted and are still drifting into the hands of speculators. Farmers tell me, who are renters themselves, that it is a common occurrence for a specu- lator to receive as much for one year's rent as he paid altogether for the improvement, and at the final disposition of the segregation land he is paid the full amount of the price which the appraisers found it to be worth when they viewed it. They have purchased the Indian's equity, and they receive the money due him for the improvement besides all the rent they can squeeze out of the fellow who tills the soil. I know of one man near Cartersville who has so much of these farms on segregated land that he has stated repeatedly that he would willingly pay the Government $8,000 for a deed to his holdings if he could only get a fee title, and yet a dozen farmers are paying him as much rent each year for this land as would purchase an equal amount of land — good land — in other States. Another man near Chant has bought enough of these improvements to equal upwards of 2,000 acres of land, and has the whole amount now under one fence and rents it out just as the other fellow does to farmers who are waiting and renting from year to year and always hoping that Congress will take some action looking to a sale of this immense body of land that will enable them to secure a home for themselves upon reasonable terms. There are 445,000 acres of segregated coal land in the Choctaw Nation, and there are enough of home seekers living here — permanent residents of this Territory — to take up every acre of it. "Here thousands of hands want acres and thousands of acres want hands." One hundred and eleven thousand acres of this land is under lease for mining purposes. The surface should be cut up into plots of not more than 160 to each actual settler, and an opportunity should be given to actual settlers to purchase a lesser amount, according to his wants or his means; therefore, it should be subdivided mto plots of 80, 40, 20, 10, or 5 acres, and ten years' time given for full payment, and interest charged at the same rate which the Government pays to bondholders for the money it borrows for its own use. If this is done the country will be rapidly developed and built up by a home people. The speculator and grafter will be forced oft the field and the man with the hoe will be realizing the produce of his own labor, the schools and churches of the Nation will flourish, and the new State will take its place where it FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 469 naturally belongs — i. c, in the front ranks ot the richest and most prosperous States in the Union. ' ' We have the land, we have the climate, we have the men. All we ask is the oppor- tunity, and will give you a State that the Congress itself will be proud of. For God's sake, gentlemen, listen to the pleadings of the renters and croppers of the Choctaw Nation, who are begging you to give them a "show for their white alley." Respectfully submitted. J. J. Sullivan, Charles W. Ivbl, M. D., On Committee from Bohoshe, Ind. T. At 6 p. m. the committee took a recess till 8 p. m., at which hour it reassembled. Muskogee, Ind. T., Friday, November 16, 1906. EVENING SESSION. The Chairman. I notice the interest that is felt in these hearings, and we are glad to see so many here, but where there are many people there is apt to be considerable noise. I hope that those who are pres- ent will maintain qaiet in the hall as much as possible, in order to expedite business. I would also call the attention of those most closely interested in the hearings to the fact that while their business is very important, and there is no disposition on the part of the com- mittee to curtail anything that may be material in these matters, yet we hope that those having charge of the subjects that are to be presented to the committee will very rapidly dispose of such points as are not of first importance. I would also ask all who are called upon to testify in this case this evening to be as brief as possible in answering the questions propounded by counsel and in volunteering information not called for and opinions not called for. Mr. Ballinger will now proceed. Mr. KoGERS. Just one moment, if you please, Mr. Chairman. We have here this evening Mr. Hopkins, who is a member of the consti- tutional convention which is to sit at Guthrie very soon, and we wish to introduce his testimony if possible at once, also the testimony of Captain McKeimon, a former member of the Commission. The Chairman. I do not like to disturb the regular order. I am afraid that if we start in in that way the entire evening will be used up in one way and another without accomplishing a great deal. Mr. Rogers. The testimony of these gentlemen is very important, and they are very anxious to get away. Mr. McKennon was for- merly a member of the Commission, and Mr. Hopkins was at one time chief law clerk of the Commission. The Chairman. Do you want to bring them in rebuttal of the evidence already put in ? Mr. EoGERS. No, sir. The Chairman. I do not see how you can anticipate what is coming. Mr. Rogers. We have the charges and the specifications. The Chairman. Possibly the other side may abandon the charges about which you want these gentlemen to testify. Senator Teller. Can you not postpone it ?■ Mr. Rogers. These gentlemen are going to attend the constitutional convention. I think the testimony will be very brief. Senator Brandegee. How long will it take? 1:70 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Rogers. I do not think it will take very long. The Chairman. About how long? Mr. Rogers. The direct examination of Mr. Hopkins will not be jrobably more than fifteen minutes. Mr. Hopkins. I am on a committee and really ought to be at juthrie. The Chairman. I think the business of this committee ought to .ake precedence of all other engagements. At the same time, if the gentlemen want to go to the constitutional convention we will hear .hem. TESTIMONY OF MB. PHILIP B. HOPKINS. Mr. Philip B. Hopkins was duly sworn by the Chairman. Direct examination by Mr. Rogers : Mr. Rogers. State your name, occupation, and residence. Mr. Hopkins. Philip B. Hopkins; residence, Muskogee, Ind. T.; )ccupation, banker. Mr. Rogers. Were you at one time an employee of the Five Civi- ized Tribes ? Mr. Hopkins. I was. Mr. Rogers. Will you state when you entered service with them. Mr. Hopkins. My employment began along about October, 1897. Mr. Rogers. How long did it continue? Mr. Hopkins. It continued, with a slight intermission of three or oar months, up to May, 1903. Mr. Rogers. During the years 1898 and 1899 were you present vith the field parties of the Commission engaged in enrolling citizens if the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations ? Mr. Hopkins. I was so engaged during 1898, but not in 1899. Mr. Rogers. Where was the field party of the Commission work- agin 1898? Mr. Hopkins. We began at Stonewall, Ind. T., on the 1st of Sep- ember, 1898; moved from there, I believe, to Pauls Valley, from here to Ardmore, and on a tour of the southern part of the entire yhickasaw Nation. Mr. Rogers. What did your work embrace in that time? Mr. Hopkins. I had charge of the records of the Conunission, lelped in the examination of the rolls, and I believe on some occa- ions had charge of the examination of parties who appeared before he Commission. Mr. Rogers. How were the applicants examined, and how were hose applications taken before that party? Mr. Hopkins. The applicants were examined orally, and we had tenographers, who took evidence in most of the cases, I believe, and he record of their application was made upon cards at the time that he applicant was there. Mr. Rogers. Did the Commission at that time have in their pos- ession any of the tribal rolls? Mr. Hopkins. Yes, sir. There were a number of the tribal roUs in he possession of the Commission. Mr. Rogers. Did they use those when the applicants made appli- ation ? Mr. Hopkins. They did. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 471 Mr. Rogers. Were all the applications taken by one examiner, or was there a distinction made, someTiy one and some by another? Mr. Hopkins. The applications for citizenship by blood were taken in one tent nnd those for the freedmen in another tent. Mr. Rogers. In which class of applicants were you engaged? Mr. Hopkins. I was more closely identified with those to be enrolled as citizens by blood. Mr. Rogers. Were you famihar with the entire work of the field parties ? Mr. Hopkins. I was; yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. Do you know of anybody being turned away from the tent where they were receiving applications of citizens by blood without beiug permitted to present his claims and having his rights examined as a citizen by blood? Mr. Hopkins. I never heard of such a case; no, sir. Mr. Rogers. Was there any distinction made between citizens by blood and freedmen at that time in the way in which they were treated by the field party ? Mr. Hopkins. None that I know of, except that the applications of those by blood were received in one tent and those or freedmen ia another, but the examinations were as nearly identical as possible in both places. Mr. Rogers. Were those examinations taken down by stenog- raphers ? Mr. Hopkins. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. Do you know when those notes were transcribed by those stenographers? Mr. Hopkins. The notes were transcribed as rapidly as the infor- mation was taken by the stenographers in the field, as rapidly as they could transcribe them. I presume that they were somewhat behind in the work by the time the party left the field and finished transcrib- ing their notes when they came to the office. I feel well satisfied that there was some of that work done possibly when they came back, but there was an effort made to transcribe as much of the work as possible in the field. Mr. Rogers. Was it done as quickly as the clerical work would per- mit, as far as you know ? Mr. Hopkins. Yes, and it was done at a great sacrifice to the men who were doing it, because the Commission, as I understood the situ- ation at that time, and I was very familiar with it, did not have as large a force to attend to the business as they should have had, by rea- son of lack of appropriations, or something of that kind. Mr. Rogers. Do you know of any person who was denied the right to make application as a citizen by blood and compelled under duress to make application as a freedman ? Mr. Hopkins. No, sir. I never heard of a case of that kind. Mr. Rogers. Did you hear of any complaints made by individuals or bya committee against the action of the Commission in that regard ? Mr. Hopkins. No, sir; I never did. I would say in that regard, if I may be permitted, that there was a committee of freedmen who appeared beiore the Dawes Commission, first at Stonewall, and stated that they were there to assist in the enrollment of Choctaw and Chick- asaw freedmen; but I never heard of any complaints having been made by them or to them as to the manner of the enrollment. But 472 PrSTE CIVILIZED TRIBES. with reference to the question just preceding, I was asked whether I knew that anybody was turned away. I have a very distinct recol- lection now of a few instances, a very few instances, of people appear- ing in the tent where the record was made of citizens by blood, claiming to be such, in which the rolls, running down to the last rolls of the tribes were thoroughly examined, and examined twice, and, the names not being found upon the rolls, it was suggested to the parties that they would probably find the record of their enrollment m the other tent. Mr. RoGEKs. Is there any other statement you desire to make in regard to this work? Mr. Hopkins. There is no statement that I desire to give to the com- mittee, except to say that when we were in the field the party averaged twelve hours' work a day in order to take care of everybody who was present, a great many being from a distance and not being provided with shelter or food. Our average time of work was at least twelve hours a day, working into the night, and I never knew or heard of a case of any person who appeared before us who was not given all the time and opportunity that he or she desired to have a thorough examination of all of the rolls of the tribe on which the enrbllment was based, which rolls were examined to see whether they had any right of enrollment. Not only was the examination made by one person, say by Mr. Bixby, who had charge of my tent, but, for fear that he may have pa,ssed the name in some way unintentionally, he would call upon myself or someone else to go over the names a second time. Mr. Rogers. You say that Mr. Bixby was with the party; was any- body else? Mr. Hopkins. Mr. Needles and Mr. McKennon were with the party when we first started; and my recollection is that Colonel Needles stayed with the party straight throught until the work was finished, or practically so, but that Mr. McKennon was called to Washington. The others were with the party during the entire trip. Mr. Rogers. Is it not a fact that the testimony taken in 1898 and 1899 was transcribed by the stenographers within a month at least after they returned to the ofSce from the field? Mr. Hopkins. I would not be in a position to say that it was done within that time, but I know that they were urged to have it done in the shortest time possible, and my recollection is that it was only a very short time after they reached the office before the work was finished. It may have been a month, it may have been five weeks, or something of that kind. I could not say just as to the time. I have no means of refreshing my recollection about it. But I know we were short of stenographers. We did not have relays, and we reached the office before the transcribing was completed. Cross-exammation by Mr. Ballinger : Mr. Ballinger. What was your official capacity with the Commis- sion? Mr. Hopkins. To the best of my recollection, I was merely a clerk at that time. I do not know whether at that particular time I had been designated chief clerk to the Commission or not. Mr. Ballinger. Is that a copy of the notice you sent out to the applicants in the Chickasaw Nation to appear at certain times and places? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 473 Mr. Hopkins (after looking at the paper) . The dates look famihar, but I could not say as to the wording now from recollection. Mr. Ballingek. I desire to offer that in evidence. Is there any objection to it. It is a certified copy. The Chairman. Do you desire to offer it in connection with his tes- timony? Mr. Ballingee. I desire to offer it right here, now, Senator. [The document was put in evidence. It is as follows:] [Taken from the issue of the Dally Ardmoreite, July 28, 1898.] CENSUS NOTICE. Dawes Commission program/or Chickasaw Nation, to make final enrollment of CMckasaws andfreedmen. The Dawes Commission will be at the places on the dates below, for the purpose of taking the census of the Chickasaw Indians by blood and Chickasaw freedmen. Heads of families may enroll the members of their families and minor children who make their homes with them. Guardians may enroll their wards. Stonewall, September 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. Pauls Valley, September 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16. Ardmore, September 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23. Tishomingo, September 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30. Lebanon, October 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Colbert, October 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. This work is done preparatory to making final rolls of the Chickasaw citizens and freedmen, under provisions of the recent act of Congress, viz: Said Commission is authorized and directed to make correct rolls Of citizens by blood of all the tribes, eliminating from the tribal rolls such names as may have been placed thereon by fraud or without authority of law, enrolling such only as may have lawful right thereto, and their descendants, born since such rolls were made . No person shall be enrolled who has not heretofore moved to and in good faith settled in the nation in which he claims citizenship . Said Commission shall make such rolls descriptive of persons thereon, so that they may be.thereby identified, and it is authorized to take the census of each of said tribes or to adopt any other means by them deemed necessary to enable them to make such rolls. They shall have access to all rolls and records of the several tribes, and the United States Court in the Indian Territory shall have jurisdiction to compel the officers of the tribal government and custodians of such rolls and records to deliver same to said Commission, and on their failure or refusal to do so, to punish them as for contempt; as also to require all citizens of said tribes and persons who should be enrolled to appear before said Com- mission for enrollment at said times and places as may be fixed by said Commission, and to enforce obedience of all others concerned, so far as the same may be necessary, to enable said Commission to make rolls as herein required, and to punish anyone who may in any manner or by any means obstruct said work. It shall make a correct roll of Chickasaw freedmen entitled to any rights or benefits under the treaty made in 1866 between the United States and the Choctaw and Chick- asaw tribes, and their descendants, bom to them since the date of said treaty. • No person shall be enrolled who has not heretofore removed to and in good faith settled in the nation in which he claims citizenship. The rolls so made, when approved by the Secretary of the Interior, shall be final, and the persons whose names are found thereon with their descendants thereafter bom to them, with such persons as may intermarry according to the tribal laws ^ , shall alone constitute the several tribes which they represent. The members of said Commission shall, in performing all of the duties required of them by law, have authority to administer oaths, examine witnesses, and send for persons and papers; and any person who shall willfully and knowingly make any false afiidavit or oath to any material fact or matter before any member of said Commission or before any other officer authorized to administer oaths, to any affidavit or any other paper to be filed or so taken before said Commission, shall be deemed guilty of perjury, and on conviction thereof shall be punished as for such offense, Persons claiming rights as Chickasaw freedmen will be examined orally, under oath, by members of the Commission, and if additional evidence be deemed necessary in any case, witnesses will in like manner be examined and the rights of claimantg thereupon determined by the Commission. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 31 474 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Persons claiming right to be enrolled as citizens by blood may also be examined under oath as aforesaid. Persons desiring enrollment should be promptly on hand. Tams Bixby, Acting Chairman. A. S. McKennon, T. B. Needles, United States op America, Indian Territory, Southern District. AFFIDAVIT OF CLARA THURMOND. Clara Thurmond, first being duly sworn on her oath, states that she is a stenographer and typewriter, employed in the office of Albert J. Lee, an attorney at law at Ardinore, Indian Territory, and that on the 30th day of August, 1906, she copied from an issue of the Daily Ardmoreite of July 28, 1898, a notice signed by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, which she has transcribed on the foregoing sheets, and which tran- scription she asserts to be a true and correct copy of the original notice appearing in said issue of said paper. Clara Thurmond. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 31st day of August, 1906. [seal.] D. H. Dawson, Notary Public. Mr. Ballingeb. Mr. Hopkins, were you with the Commission on September 1 when it met at Stonewall ? Mr. Hopkins. I arrived at Stonewall, I think, on August 31 at noon. Mr. Ballinger. Are you familiar with any decision reached by the Commission relative to the status of persons of mixed Indian and negro blood at that time? Mr. Hopkins. Somewhat. Mr. Ballingee. Did the Commission reach a decision to the effect that all persons of mixed Indian and negro blood should be enrolled as freedmen? Mr. Hopkins. They did not. Mr. Ballinger. You said that no person had been denied the privilege of making application for citizenship by blood. Under your notice here was a person invited to make application or required to? Mr. PIoPKiNS. I do not understand the question. Mr. Ballinger. Under your notice here you invited persons to appear before the Commission for examination and identification. Is there anything in this notice or was there anything said by the Commission that required them to make application for either enroll- ment as a citizen or enrollment as a freedman? Mr. Hopkins. I could not state unless I looked at it. Mr. Rogers. I think the notice itself is the best evidence of that. The Chairman. Objection sustained. Mr. Ballinger. Were you with the Commission at Pauls Valley? Mr. Hopkins. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Do you remember a person by the name of Kich- ard Alexander, who appeared as representative of persons of mixed Indian and negro blood? Mr. Hopkins. I do not remember such a party; no, sir. Mr. Ballinger. You say that those records were transcribed in the field and also, as I understood you, you stated that there was a record; that the Commission had with it copies of the enrollment records of the tribes, or the tribal records of enrollment. riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 475 Mr. Hopkins. Pardon me. You are speaking of records that were transcribed and records of the roll. Do. the same questions apply to both? Mr. Ballinger. I ask them separate and distinct. You stated that the Commission had with it at that time the enrollment records of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, and that when a person made application for enrollment as a citizen they examined the records to see whether or not the names had previously appeared upon one of the records of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations. Mr. Hopkins. We had every record that it was possible for the Commission to procure from the tribes and from the Government at Washington. Mr. Ballinger. Were not some of those records delivered by the tribe to the Commission as late as 1903? Mr. Hopkins. Well, there was a roll offered by the tribe possibly as late as 1903 ; but as I stated we had every record, that it was possible to obtain, either from the tribe or the Government at that time. Mr. Ballinger. What tribal rolls did you have of the Choctaw Nation at that time. Mr. Hopkins. I really could not tell you now unless I could go into the matter more fully and examine the records in the office of the Commission. Mr. Ballinger. Would you remember them if I should recall them ? Mr. Hopkins. I would not say; possibly I might. Mr. Ballinger. Did you have the Choctaw census roll of 188.5? Mr. Hopkins. Well, I would not remember the date of that. We had a large number of the census rolls of both the different tribes. Mr. Ballinger. Did you have the Choctaw census roll of 1896? Mr. Hopkins. I do not recollect whether we did have. I do not think we had any authentic roll of the Choctaw Nation of 1896. Mr. Ballinger. Now, as a matter of fact, was not the Commission without any reliable Choctaw citizenship rolls down to 1903, and did it not procure them in that year? Mr. Hopkins. No, sir; that is not the case. We haxi rolls that were represented to us by officials of the tribes to be reliable rolls. They were what we presumed to be all the rolls that could be furnished to us upon our request. We knew of no rolls that were in existence, my recollection is, that we did not try to get. Mr. Ballinger. In the case of persons appearing upon those rolls, say, where a man who had intermarried with a negro woman and his name appeared on one of those tribal rolls; did you enroll his children on the same card with that of the father? Mr. Hopkins. I have no recollection as to the enrollment of inter- married negroes or the enrollment of particular cases, but in a few words I will say this, that we traced down those rolls to find the first and original enrollment of the parties who appeared before us. The tribes were divided into counties, and in some of the nations into bands and towns, and their names must have appeared first on some one of those rolls — freedmen or citizenship rolls — and the Commission traced back as far as it was possible to determine in what class of citizenship the tribe had originally recognized the parties. Mr. Ballinger. Where the names of father, mother, and children appeared on one' of those rolls and the children were of mixed Indian and negro blood did you enroll those on the roll of citizen by blood ? 476 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. Hopkins. It would depend largely upon what the tribal enroll- ment was. If the tribal enrollment of the mother was separate from the tribal enrollment of the father the chances are nine hundred and ninety-nine to one that the children were enrolled with the mother and if we found the tribal enrollment of the mother in that way we enrolled them ourselves — the original enrollment of the tribe. Mr. Ballinger. For instance, take a case such as this. On page 11 of the 1885 eensus roll of Klamitia County of the Choctaw Nation, opposite 166 appears the name of Oliver McCoy, 34 years of age, a full- blood Choctaw Indian. Opposite 167 appears the name of Susan McCoy, 33 years of age, a colored woman, and the notation "citizen by marriage to McCoy." The names of Francis McCoy, Emily McCoy, Molsy McCoy, Michael McCoy, and Elizabeth McCoy appear opposite to 168-172, respectively, as colored persons with the notation opposite their names, "half-blood citizens on their father's side." How would you have enrolled those parties ? Mr. Hopkins. Do I understand you to say that the record there says that the mother was a colored person — a slave ? Mr. Ballinger. A colored person; an intermarried citizen. Mr. Hopkins. I would certainly have enrolled her and the children together. Mr. Ballinger. As what ? Mr. Hopkins. In the first place I would have enrolled them on a doubtful card, with further testimony to be procured, to know whether they were entitled to citizenship or not. One of the earliest acts of these nations down there was prohibiting marriage of Indians with persons of negro blood and prescribing severe penalties and Eractically disfranchising anybody and punishing their own citizens y whipping, I believe, or some severe punishment for cohabitation. Mr. Ballinger. What was the date of that act ? Mr. Hopkins. It was along back in the sixties sometime. Mr. Ballinger. Was it not in 1888 ? Mr. Hopkins. I could not tell you. I should want to see the original act. . Mr. Ballinger. I have it here. Mr. Hopkins. You mean you have the original act ? Mr. Ballinger. If it was 1888 then it was three years after these parties were enrolled on the tribal roll of the Choctaw Nation. Mr. Hopkins. I do not know the date. Mr. Kogers. The law is the best evidence of that, and if you intro- duce it it will be evidence. Mr. Ballinger. You would have enrolled those parties, notwith- standing their appearance upon a citizenship roll of the Choctaw Nation, as upon a doubtful card or upon a freedman card, would you not ? Mr. Hopkins. I would undoubtedly have made a record in that case that would have required further investigation, because the Commission was charged with the duty of eliminating from the tribal rolls those who were on there by fraud or without authority of law, and on the presentation of a case of that kind I would have made a record that would have required further investigation before putting them on a regular card. Mr. Ballinger. You did that in all cases wherever it appeared that a Choctaw, no matter whether a full blood or a half blood! or quarter FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 477 blood intermarried with a negro woman — you placed them either upon a doubtful or a freedmen card ? Mr. Hopkins. It may be possible, but the instances in which we found that the Indians were lawfully or legally married to negroes were so scarce that I have no recollection of one now. It is almost impossible, in enrollment matters of the various nations, for people of mixed blood, African and negro blood, to show a lawful or legal mar- riage between the parties, and the testimony when given is almost entirely of a hearsay nature. That has been my experience. Mr. Ballinger. Well, that was the holding of the Commission, was it not, at that time, and the general understanding of all the clerks of the Commission, that whenever a person of mixed Indian and negro blood appeared in the tent where citizens by blood were being enrolled or examined their names were placed either upon a freedman or a doubtful card. Mr. Hopkins. No; it was not invariably the case. There are a great many cases in which the mother happened to be the Indian and the father happened to be the negro — either a person of African descent or pure negro — and the record, of the enrollment in those cases would be found with the mother. Furthermore, it was the general practice in each one of the five tribes that the enrollment of the children followed that of the mother from time immemorial. Mr. Ballinger. I object to this argument. The Chairman. You have asked that question several times and he has given the same answer. Mr. Hopkins. I stated positively that it was not the invariable rule of the Commission to so enroll them. Each case was examined on its merits. Mr. Ballinger. Why was an exception made in the McCoy case ? Mr. Hopkins. I do not know. I have not examined the McCoy case. You showed me some extracts from it. Mr. Ballinger. Were you familiar with the examination of per-, sons of mixed Indian and negro blood? Mr. Hopkins. There were some such persons examined in my tent. Mr. Ballinger. I show you papers showing Oliver McCoy as a Choctaw citizen, his children as freedmen, and here is the examination record in that case. I desire to read that to the committee and I will say to the committee that this is more elaborate than the generality of those records. The Chairman. Can you not put that in later and finish with this gentleman ? Mr. Ballinger. I can. The Chairman. If so, we would like to finish with this witness. (The McCoy papers will be found at foot of Mr. Hopkins's testimony.) Mr. Ballinger. Is this the act you refer to [exhibiting a book to witness] ? Mr. Hopkins. No, sir; it is not. It is an earlier act. Mr. Ballinger. That act prohibits intermarriage does it not? Mr. Hopkins. It makes it a felony. Mr. Ballinger. That is not the act you refer to ? Mr. Hopkins. No, sir; to my recollection it is not. It was an earlier act of the Choctaw Nation. Mr. Ballinger. I should like to have that act inserted in the record at the proper time. 478 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. For what purpose ? There is nothing in the record to justify the insertion of it. Mr. Ballinger. I would Hke to have the other act, the one Mr. Hopkins has testified about. The Chairman. I think it would be perhaps the duty of counsel to put that in. The Choctaw marriage act referred to above by Mr. Ballinger as "the one Mr. Hopkins has testified about" is as follows: Sec. VIII. 1. Be it enacted by the general council of the Choctaw Nation assem- bled. It shall not be lawful for a Choctaw and a negro to marry; and if a Choctow man or Choctaw woman should marry a negro man or negro woman he or she shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and shall be proceeded against in the circuit court of the Choctaw Nation having jurisdiction the same as all other felonies are proceeded against; and if proven guilty shall receive fifty lashes on the bare back. [Laws of the Choctaw Nation, page 206.] Mr. Ballinger. I have before me the record in the Jesse McGee case. He appears, I think, on the records as one-quarter Chickasaw and his wife and children appear upon the freedman card. How about that case? Mr. Hopkins. I can not recollect those separate and distinct cases. I resigned from the Commission because I was going crazy at the objections and rulings and reversals of the Department. I quit, to get away from it. Mr. Rogers. I object to this because it is not cross-examination. The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Ballinger. The witness answered the question before the objection came. Mr. Ballinger. Did you know Charles Cohee, one of the committee of citizens of the freedmen of the Chickasaw Nation? Mr. Hopkins. I knew Charles Cohee. I would not state from recollection now as to whether he was a Choctaw or Chickasaw. Mr. Ballinger. Did he make any contention before the Com- mission as to the rights of these parties ? Mr. Hopkins. Only so far as the rights of freedmen to enrollment were concerned and the fact that he and his committee were there to assist the freedmen in being enrolled. Mr. Ballinger. Were the notes taken by the stenographer taken in full or were they abbreviated — was everything the witness said included in the record 1 Mr. Hopkins. Well, it was supposed to have been, as far as I knew. I was not a stenographer and had never taken the work but it was supposed to have been taken. Mr. Ballinger. As a matter of fact, was not the entry made dic- tated by some member of the Commission or some employee? Mr. Hopkins. Not to my knowledge or recollection. It may have been that in some cases where the witness could not be heard dis- tinctly the stenographer leaned over and asked what the answer was, and the answer was repeated by the examiner or the party in charge. 1 feel quite certain that it was not the practice for the answers to be dictated by the examiner. Mr. Ballinger. Where the legality of the marriage did not appear, where parties were living together under what may be termed a common-law marriage, did you enroll the children of an Indian man and a negro woman as either freedmen or upon the doubtful cards . Mr. Hopkins. I think invariably the children were enrolled with the mother. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 479 Mr. Ballinger. Was that the rule where the mother was white ? Mr. Hopkins. If the mother was a citizen, it was. Mr. Ballinger. If she was not? Mr. Hopkins. Then there would have to be proof of marriage furnished. Mr. Ballinger. Where there was proof of marriage furnished, how were the children of an Indian man who married a white woman enrolled ? Mr. Hopkins. To the best of my recollection they were all enrolled on the one card. Mr. Ballinger. What card? Indian or noncitizen ? Mr. Hopkins. The children would be enrolled with the father. The memorandum of enrollment would be made of the father and children on an Indian card and a notation that such and such a named woman was his wife, and her enrollment would be entered on a straight card and cross references made to the card of her husband. That is my recollection about the matter. Mr. Ballinger. In other words, there was a discrimination against the intermarriage of an Indian with a negro and an Indian with a white woman. Mr. Hopkins. I do not know that there was any discrimination made. Mr. Ballinger. Well, against their descendants, or the issue. Mr. Hopkins. I do not know of any discrimination being made in the matter, because I can not recollect an instance where the proof of an Indian man married with a negro woman was presented to us. I do not recall one. The claims were made by various freedmen women as to who their children were, but no evidence of marriage was given. The following papers in the McCoy case were put in evidence by Mr. Ballinger, bemg offered during the foregoing examination of Mr. Philip B. Hopkins: In re application of Susan McCoy to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Goodland, 1. T., May 11th, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freedman. Being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles and examined by him et al., she testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Susan McCoy. Q. Were you a slave? — A. Yes, sir; I belonged to Sam Colbert. Q. Who was your mother? — A. Polly Colbert. Q. Who did she belong to? — A. Sam Colbert. Q. Have you been living all the time in the Territory? — A. Yes, sir; right here; no other place but here. Q. Are you married? — A. I was married, but my husband is dead. I have a married daughter. Her husband took her off a little before Christmas, and she was to get back here by this time, but she has not come yet. He took her down about Texarkana somewhere. Q. Has she got any children? — A. Yes, sir; she has them with her; she has six. Q. What is her name? — A. Frances Boatwright. Q. Do you know that she has this young child, Geo. W. Boatwright?— A. Yes, sir. (Enrolled Susan McCoy and children and Frances Boatwright and her children as Choctaw freedmen.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. 480 i'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, Department of the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., February IS, 1906. In the matter of the application for the transfer of the names of Susan Brasheare Mary Jane McCoy, Michael McCoy, Lizzie Robuck, Francis Boatright, Emma Cook' Isaac, Lila, Nellie, Willie, and Eva Cook from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. Under the regulations adopted by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes January 2, 1906, there was filed on January 15, 1906, by Albert J. Lee, Ardmore, Indian Territory, the attorney for the petitioners, a petition of Susan Brashears, Mary Jane McCoy, Michael McCoy, Lizzie Robuck, Francis Boatright, and Emma Cook, children of the said Susan Brashears, Isaac Cook, Lila Cook, Nellie Cook, Willie Cook, and Eva Cook, minor children of the said Emma Cook, for the correction of the enrollment records of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, in the matter of their enroll- ment as. freedmen of the Choctaw Nation, and for the transfer of their names from the said freedmen roll to the roll of Choctaw citizens by blood. January 30, 1906, the petitioners, Susan Brashears, Atlas, Indian Territory; Mary Jane McCoy, Atlas, Indian Territory; their attorney of record, Albert J. Lee, Ardmore, Indian Territory, and Messrs. Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, attorneys for the Choc- taw and Chickasaw nations, South McAlester, Indian Territory, were advised that the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes would, at his office at Muskogee, Indian Ter- ritory, on Tuesday, February 13, 1906, nine o'clock a. m., hear such testimony and receive such other evidence as might be presented by thd petitioners in support of their application for the transfer of their names from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation, and by the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. Now, on this 13th day of February, 1906, at nine o'clock a. m., this case being called or hearing, in conformity with the notices to the petitioners, their attorney of record, and the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, the following appearances were entered and proceedings had : Appearances: Susan Brashears and Mary Jane McCoy, petitioners. Albert J. Lee, attorney for petitioners. G. Rosenwinkel, appearing on behalf of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, attorneys for Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. By Mr. Lee. Now, Mr. Commissioner, let the records show that the request was made to have included in the record the names of Oliver Boatright, Tommie Boatright, Jimmie Boatright, Marion Boatright, Cleaton Victor Boatright, and George Washington Boatright, minor children of Francis Boatright, one of the petitioners herein. By the Commissioner. These children are not named in the original petition, are they? By Mr. Lee. No, sir. By the Commissioner. The hearing will be confined to the allegations contained in the petition under the regulations adopted by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes on January 2, 1906. The testimony to be taken in this case will not apply to those applicants. By Mr. Rosenwinkel. The Choctaw and Chickasaw nations wish to object to any proceedings being taken in this cause, for the reason that the records of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes do not show that any application was ever made by or on behalf of these applicants for their enrollment as citizens by blood of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations. We object, further, for the reason that even if such an application had been made that the Commission would be without jurisdiction to hear or consider their applications, because their names do not appear upon the tribal rolls of either of said nations, within the meaning of the Act of May 31, 1900. By Mr. Lee. Just let the record show now that we submit that the objections made by the attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations is in fact an answer to the peti- tion filed in this case and is barred by the rules and regulations adopted by the Com- missioner to the Five Civilized Tribes January 2, 1906. We further object to the insertion of the objection of the attorneys for the Chickasaw and Choctaw nations, on the grounds that no objection can be made to testimony intro- duced except such objection is made upon the introduction of the testimony of the witnesses, for the reason that it is incompetent, immaterial, or irrelevant to the issue aa shown by the petition. By Mr. Lee. Now, I want to ask if it is the practice of the Commissioner under the regulations to conduct the examination of the petitioners. By the Commissioner. The Commissioner will certainly conduct the examination to such an extent as to satisfy the Commissioner as to the identification of the applicante. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 481 By Mr. Lee. We wish to submit under the regulations we are entitled to conduct our own examination in chief. We wish to conduct our own examination. (No objection offered by Commissioner.) Susan Brashears, being duly sworn, testified as follows: By the Commissioner: Q. What is your name? — A. Susan Brashears. Q. How old are you?— A. About 59; I think that is what I said when I was up before. Q. Where do you live? — A. I live near Hugo, Kiamatia County. Q. Have you been enrolled as a Choctaw or Chicksaw freedman?— A. Been en- rolled as a Choctaw citizen. Q. Citizen, freedman? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you selected your allotment? — A. Just got twenty acres, all I got. Q. That is your entire allotment? — A. Yes, sir, I think so, little strip of land. Q. How long have you been named Susan Brashears? — A. Going on five years or six. Q. Know what name you were enrolled under? — A. Susan McCoy. The witness is identified upon the records of this office on Choctaw Freedmen Roll Card No. 615, and opposite No. 1346 upon the final rolls of Choctaw freedmen approved by the Secretary of me Interior. By Mr. Lee: Q. Are you enrolled by the Dawes Commission? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How were you enrolled by the Dawes Commission? — A. Colored. Q. What do you mean, on the freedmen roll? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever enrolled on any of the tribal rolls? — A. My old man said I was. (Answer of the witness objected to by Mr. Rosenwinkel.) By the Commissioner: Objection sustained. By Mr. Lee: Q. I want to ask you when you were married to McCoy? — A. When I was first adopted as a Choctaw citizen. Q. When were you adopted as a Choctaw citizen? — A. First adopted at old Good- land. Q. As to point of time? — A. I married first and walked right on in and was adopted. Q. What year? — A. I couldn't tell what year. Q. What year were you married to McCoy; let me ask it a different way; how long after the war were you married to McCoy, about how long? — A. About five years before I married after the war. Q. Immediately upon your marriage you were adopted as a citizen? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. That adoption was as an Indian citizen of the Choctaw Nation, was it? — ^A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Rosenwinkel: Q. Who adopted you as an Indian citizen? — A. One Green Thompson, used to fol- low around. Green Thompson was living at that time. Q. Who was it adopted you as an Indian citizen? — A. I mean to say Green Thomp- son. Q. Don't you know whether you were adopted as a freedman or Indian citizen? — A. Adopted as colored citizen, freedman. Q. Ever attempt to draw any money? — A. No, sir. Q. Never drew any? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Lee: Q. The adoption that you speak of was the adoption after you were married to McCoy, about five years after the civil war? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You just answered you were adopted as a freedman? — A. I was adopted as a citizen. By the Commissioner: Is it contended that this woman Susan Brashears was adopted by the Choctaw tribe of Indians as a citizen of the Choctaw Nation? By Mr. Lee: Yes, sir; and appears on the tribal rolls as such. By the Commissioner: Was she adopted by any act of the Choctaw National Council or any citizenship committee. By Mr. Lee: We don't contend that that is the case; our only contention is that this person is an enrolled Choctaw citizen, on the tribal rolls of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. By the Commissioner: On what roll? By Mr. Lee: I think she appears on the 1885 roll. 482 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. By the Commissioner: Q. Susan, how old are you now? — A. About 59 I guess, this coming March, 6th of March. Q. In this petition you also mention Mary Jane McCoy, is she living? — A. Yes sir- she sits right here. Q. Is she your daughter? — A. That is my child. Q. How old is Mary Jane McCoy? — A. I can't keep up with their ages, she can speak for herself. Q. About how old is she? — A. About 15 I guess, I don't know how old she is, I can't keep up with their ages. Q. Now, is Michael McCoy your son? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he living? — A. Yes, sir; at home. Q. Is Lizzie Robuck your daughter? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Under what name is Lizzie enrolled? — A. McCoy. Q. Are Francis Boatright and Emma Cook your children? — A. Yes, sir; that is my two children. Q. Are they all living? — A. Yes, sir; they are living. Q. Whose children are Isaac, Lila, Nellie, Willie, and Eva Cook? — A. Emma's children. Q. Are they all living? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now are these persons that you have named in this petition, and concerning whom you have just testified — they have been enrolled as Choctaw freedmen, have they not? — A. That is what they were. Q. All selected allotments? — A. All but one, Francis, the smallest one. Q. Now you are 50 years of age? — A. Yes, sir; I guess. Q. Where were you born? — A. In the Choctaw Nation. Q. Were you a slave? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Whose slave? — A. Colbert's; old man Sam Colbert. Q. Have you lived in the Choctaw Nation continuously since the time of your birth up to the present time? — ^A. Don't know any other place but that. Q. Now whatever rights, if any, that these other petitioners have, your children and grandchildren, are through you, are they not? — A. Yesj sir. By AiBEBT J. Lee. We didn't put in the record that some of these children are enrolled on the 1885 roll; they are there except Mary Jane McCoy; I didn't deem it necessary that that should be put in the record by reason of her being on the roll. By the Commissioner: Q. When did you apply to the Dawes Commission for the enrollment of yourself and family as Choctaw freedmen? — A. Down there at Atoka. Q. When was that? — A. I don't know what time it was; some time ago. Q. How long ago? — A. Been over a year, I guess; since I was up to Atoka. Q. What did you do at Atoka? — A. I went up there and filed on 20 acres of land. Q. That is when you selected your allotment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I am talking about when you went to the Dawes Commission and applied for the enrollment of yourself and family? — A. When did I? Q. Yes. — A. We were enrolled by the Dawes Commission when they were at old Goodland. Q. Was that the only time you went before the Dawes Commission to be enrolled?— A. Yes, sir; Goodland; I went twice; when they was at old Goodland; the Dawes Com- missioner had lots of camps. Q. Was that the only time that you went before the Dawes Commission to be enrolled when they were at Goodland in those tents? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Lee. We will let it be stated that she didn't make any assertion of her rights as a citizen by blood when she was enrolled as a freedman of the Choctaw Nation. By the Commissioner. Now, do I understand, Mr. Lee, that it is not contended in behalf of these persons that they have ever asserted any rights to be enrolled as citizens of the Choctaw Nation. By Mr. Lee. It is contended that it is immaterial whether they did or did not at the time they were enrolled as Choctaw freedmen make any assertion of Choctaw descent or rights as Choctaw citizens by blood. By the Commissioner. Then there is no contention, as I understand, that these people specifically, within the time prescribed by the act of July 1, 1902, apphed to the Dawes Commission to be enrolled as citizens of the Choctaw Nation or asserted any rights to enrollment as such. By Mr. Lee. They never formally. By the Commissioner. Have they ever applied? By Mr. Lee. I don't know. riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 483 By the Commissioner: Q. Do you remember that you have ever made any application to this Commission up to three years ago last Christmas for the enrollment of yourself, children, and grand- children as citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation? — A. No answer. By Mr. Lee: Q. When you were before the Commission and enrolled as a freedman, did you make any assertion of the Choctaw blood of yourself and children? — A. Yes, sir; that was up at Antlers. Q. When was you at Antlers? — A. When they was taking up people's names up there. Q. How long ago was that? — A. I don't know, I can't tell you wnen it was. Q. About how long? — A. I don't know what time it was. By the Commissioner: Q. Have you or your children ever been enrolled by the Choctaw tribal authorities as citizens of the Choctaw Nation? — A. No answer. By Mr. Lee. Commissioner, please, she answered she was after she married McCoy. By the Commissioner: Q. Have you? — A. I told you that I was. Q. You said you had been adopted? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever been adopted, your name ever been put on any roll? — A. What do you mean? Q. You know what the rolls are; when the Choctaws made the roll of citizens? — ^A. When they adopted us, didn't they put us on the roll? Q. When who adopted you? — A. The Dawes Commission, I guess. Q. Who is this man McCoy that you married; who is he? — A. Choctaw. Q. What is his full name? — A. Oliver McCoy. Q. How long has he been dead? — A. Nine years. Q. How many children did you have by him? — A. Well, I have got two dead and five living; seven children. Q. What are their names? — A. Francis, Erma, Michael, Lizzie, and Mary; two dead. Q. What are the names of the ones dead? — A. Molsy and Tommie. By Mr. Lee : Q. Mary also? — A. Yes, sir; I said Mary. By the Commissioner: Q. Have you or these children ever drawn any money as citizens of the Choctaw Nation? — A. We never drawed none; their pa did. Q. You say your husband, McCoy, has been dead about nine years? — A. Been dead about nine years. Q. Was he living when the 1893 payment was made to the Choctaws? — A. When they drawed so much money? Q. $103 apiece? — A. Yes, sir; he was living. Q. Did he draw any money? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he draw any money for you or the children at that time? — A. Drawed for himself. Q. Did he attempt to draw for you or the children? — A. I never did ask him. Q. You was born a slave, wasn't you? — A. Yes, sir; I was a slave. Q. A slave of Sam Colbert, a Choctaw Indian? — ^A. Old man Colbert. Q- Now, if you had any rights as a Choctaw citizen you have acquired them by your marriage to McCoy? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You are not positive of any Choctaw blood, are you? — A. I don 't claim to be. Q. When were you married to McCoy? — A. I told you it was at old Goodland, I mar- ried and was registered. Q. How long ago was that? — A. I couldn't tell you; been such a long time. Q. About how long? — A. I don't know, sir; I can't tell you. Q. Who married you to McCoy? — A. Solomon Hotama. Q. Did you get a marriage license and certificate? — A. He never gave it tous; my old man told me it was recorded in a book. Q. Have you any evidence of your marriage to this Choctaw Indian McCoy? — A. I never got none at all. Q. Now you stated in your testimony that whatever rights, if any, your children and grandhildren had were entirely through you; was that Correct? — A. No, sir; I didn't tell you that. Q. Now in this petition you claim that you are a Choctaw by blood, and ask that your name be transferred from the roll of Choctaw Freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood 484 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. of tte Choctaw Nation. Now, you are not positive of any Choctaw blood at all, are you? — ^A. I don't know nothing about nay blood; don't know nothing about my blood. I told you once what my father was. Q. Your father and mother were both negroes and slaves, were they? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You do not claim any rights as a citizen of the Choctaw Nation except by reason of your marriage to this man McCoy? — A. No answer. By Mr. Lee. The petition here states that her father, Martin"GuesB, was a white man, an adopted citizen of the Choctaw Nation; that is before the Com m ission, if the Com- missioner please. By the Commissioner: Q. Answer the question, please? — A. My father was a Choctaw man. Q. Were your father and mother both citizens of the Choctaw Nation? — ^A. What you mean — applied here to this nation? Q. Do you claim any rights as a Choctaw citizen through your father or mother? — A. My mother was a colored woman. My father was a Choctaw man, come here with the Indians from old Mississippi, lived here with them, and died here. Q. Was he a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, an enrolled citizen of the tribe? — A. I guess he was, by him coming up with them. Q. You don't know? — ^A. No, sir; I don't know; come here with them when they first come to this country. Q. Now, Susan, at the time you appeared before the Dawes Commission at Goodland, did you say anything about your children being entitled to enrollment as Choctaw Indians? — A. What place you mean? Q. When you were at Goodland, when you applied for your enrollment and the enrollment of your children? — A. No answer. By Mr. Lee. I want to ask if the Commissioner deems it his right or his duty to take upon himself the cross-examination of the witnesses, when there is present for that pur- pose an attorney for the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations. By the Commissioner. Objection is overruled. The Commission to the Five Civi- lized Tribes is authorized to avail itself of any reasonable means to reach the facts with reference to the right of any applicant. By the Commissioner: Q. Answer that question, Susan. I want to know when you applied to the Dawes Commission for the enrollment of yourself and your children as Choctaw freedmen, and you said nothing about them being entitled to enrollment as Choctaw citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation? — ^A. Yes, sir; I did. I told them my children ought to be enrolled as Choctaws; I sure did. Q. J^ow, tell us exactly what took place there? — A. They enrolled us; that is, all my children. They said that my children ought not to come on the colored roll at all; ought to be on the Indian roll. Q. Who told you? — A. Man doing the work. Q. Who was it? — A. I can't tell you — one man there at the time who was old Dick Murray's son; where he is I don't know. He asked my girl how she come to be down on the colored roll, and asked her, Why ain't you on the roll with your daddy? Q. Who was it? — A. One of Murray's boys, old Dick Murray's son; don't know whether he is living or not. Q. What was the lull name of this Choctaw Indian that you married?-r-A. Oliver Stock McCoy. Q. Did he have any other name? — A. Boss, just a nickname, short name. By Mr. Eosbnwinkel: Q. Do you remember the name of the man that swore you at Goodland when you appeared before the Commission? — A. No, sir; I couldn't, they were strangers tome, Q. Well, you remember that, don't you? — A. Don't remember who he was. Q. You went before him, did you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Held up your hand, did you? — A. Yes, sir; he was off to one side of the room where the colored people were. Q. Who was off to one side; Indians at one table and colored people at one table?— A. Yes, sir. Q. You went where the colored people were, did you not? — A. Yes, sir. Q. If you were an Indian and claimed Indian rights why did you not go where the Indians were? — A. Well, they would have pushed me away. Q. You are quite positive that they would have pushed you away? — A. Yes, sii. Q. Would you remember that Commissioner's name if you heard it now? — A. ao, sir; I wouldn't know his name. Q. Did you have any conversation with him? — A. No, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 485 Q. You didn't tell him that you were an Indian? — A. No, sir. Q. Didn't tell him that your children were Indians? — A. Yea, sir. Q. This Commissioner that swore you? — A. I told him that I was a colored lady. By Mr. Lee; Q. Why did you say that if you had have gone up to the table where they were enrolling Indians they would have pushed you away; what makes you think they would? — A. My old man wasn't there at the time. I couldn't go up by myself; if he had have been living I might have walked up with him. Q. Well, that would not be sufficient for making you think you couldn't go up there; wasn't other colored people going up there? — A. You see we just had to go in and come right out; they would not allow us in there. On page 11 of the 1885 census roll of Kiamatia County of the Choctaw Nation, oppo- site No. 166, appears the name of Oliver McCoy, 34 years of age, a full-blood Choctaw Indian; opposite No. 167 appears the name of Susan McCoy, 33 years of age, a colored woman, and the notation "Citizen by marriage to McCoy." 'The names of Francis McCoy, Emily McCoy, Molsy McCoy, Michael McCoy, and Elizabeth McCoy appear upon said record opposite the numbers 168, 169, 170, 171, and 172, respectively, as colored persons with the notation opposite their names, " Half-blood citizens on father's Bide." The names of none of the petitioners appear upon the 1893 Choctaw leased district payment roll or the 1896 census roll of citizens of the Choctaw Nation. Witness excused. Cora Moore, being duly sworn, states that as stenographer to the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes she reported the proceedings had in the above-entitled cause on the 13th day of February, 1906, and that the above and foregoing is a transcript of her stenographic notes taken in said cause on said date. Cora Moore. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 20th day of February, 1906. [seal.] • Myron White, Notary Public. 486 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. s o aso§ FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 487 i o 6 a 3 siz; 1= S 00 00 00 00 fH^fe^ 1^^ to >0 "^ nW O A? ■ o . - o- - o O) Q3 9^ 9 O 9^ T-l iH iH fH e*3 rt S O O O O O Ig o o. o o- i-tw«^»oo I I |-§| PI vam 1 8 ^it •ea oi3p5 1 3 O >. % Ot3'^ -o n«g > nS sjaB ja*^E-i i feOTJ u n 92 sf S 23 J3 Si^r> *^ &» s i^^' Ti Mfl 0) S'^*^ ■t'a-S t^™-*^ J3 2 S s O "^1 ?. 3^" P. t^h>^ ■ S n 2 »|m ■^ ^ •StjE^ << a a > kTo CD ^3 ,a o o o 03 n asa ^a t! O iS ^o pi-- aas-S > (=1 O O a 1 i 1 1 ■s s 1 s a 6 iiiiii O o O o 1 t2 : - - - S 6 d d 6 6 d mZ2;;gZZZ o ' i iiiiii 8 4J s s g a) i 6 ha: . . : : o 1 'Z 1 00 Rela- tionship to per- son first named. c c DC : : 1 < c f 1 I + C PC i -> I c &■ let 1 Q C i 3CC 5 1 1 cxo j ,a 1 •s a 5 i a 5 1! nS O i-t Ca CO rjl to CJ CO CO CO CO CO CO (N rt ^ rt »-( i-K l-t lO '6-S: = = : mo - HC ^P 3T ^« :l^ - 1 ?d ■g'^ FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 489 TESTIMONY OF MB. ALBEBT J. LEE, BECALLED. Re-direct examination by M. Ballingeb : Mr. Ballinger. Were you attorney in the Bettie Ligon case? Mr. Lee. Yes; I was and am. Mr. Ballinger [showing a paper to the witness]. Did you receive that letter from the Commissioner to the Five CiviHzed Tribes ? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballinger. I offer that in evidence. No objection being offered the letter was put in evidence. It is as follows : Department op the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., July S, 1905. Albert J. Lee, Attorney at Law, Ardmore, Ind. T. Dear Sir: Receipt is hereby acknowledged of your letter of June 27, 1905, in which you state that the affidavit of Margaret Ann Wilson was filed by Attorney Cruce, of that city, in support of the application of Bettie Ligon for enrollment as a Choctaw or Chicka- saw by blood. In reply to your letter, you are advised that it does not appear from the records of this office that application has been made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of Betty Ligon as a citizen by blood of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nation, but she has been enrolled as a Choctaw freedman and her enrollment as such approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Respectfully, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Mr. Ballinger. Did you receive the decision of the Commission in that case? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballinger. Is this the copy you received [showing paper to the witness] ? Mr. Lee. That is. Mr. Ballinger. I desire to insert this statement from this decision. Mr. Rogers. I prefer to have the whole decision. Mr. Ballinger. It will greatly encumber the record and I only want one line. The document was put in evidence. It is as follows: Department of the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. In the matter of the petition for the transfer of the names of Bettie Ligon, et al. , from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation. On March 5, 1906, there was filed with the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes by Albert J. Lee, attorney for the petitioners, a petition praying for the trans- fer of the names of the following persons from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation: Bettie Ligon, Mat Ligon, Clarence Ligon, Mitchel Ligon, Gladys Ligon, Leader Ligon, Chadwick Ligon, Mable Douglas, and Sophia Myrtle Douglas. The petition alleges that Bettie Ligon, the principal petitioner, is a daughter of Bob Love, a recognized Chickasaw Indian citizen, and a mixed breed slave woman named Margaret Ann Wilson; that the petitioner, Mable Douglas, is a daughter of the said Bettie Ligon and the lawful wife of Anderson Douglas, and is the mother of the peti- tioner, Sophia Myrtle Douglas; that the petitioners, Mat, Clarence, Mitchel, Gladys, Leader, and Chadwick Ligon, are the children of the said Bettie Ligon by her lawful husband Hadley Ligon; that the petitioners have always insisted that they were entitled to enrollment as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation, and that when before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes the principal petitioner made formal application for enrollment as such, setting out the facts that she was a daughter of Bob Love, a recognized Chickasaw Indian citizen, which formal application and statement of descent resulted in her enrollment and the enrollment of her children without her consent as freedmen of the Choctaw Nation. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 32 490 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. No answer to the petition has been filed by the attorneys for the Choctaw ana Chickasaw nations within the fifteen days allowed for the purpose by the regulations adopted by the Commissioner January 2, 1906. The petitioners have been enrolled as Choctaw freedmen and their names appear on the final roll of Choctaw freedmen approved by the Secretary of the Interior as follows: Bettie Ligon (as Betty Ligon), opposite No. 2604; Clarence Ligon, opposite No. 2607; Mitchel Ligon (as Mitchell Ligon), opposite No. 2608; Gladys Ligon, oppo- site No. 2609; Leader Ligon, opposite No. 2610; Chadwick Ligon (as Shadrack Ligon), opposite No. 2611; Mable Douglas (as Mabel Douglass), opposite No. 2605; Sophia Myrtle Douglas (as Sophia Myrtle Douglass), opposite No. 2612. This office has no record of any application ever having been made for the enrollment of Mat Ligon as a Choctaw freedman. It is presumed, however, that the petitioner, Mat Ligon, is identical with Nathaniel Ligon, a son of Bettie Ligon, and enrolled as a Choctaw freedman opposite No. 2606. Application was made for the enrollment of all the petitioners, except Sophia Myrtle Douglass, as Choctaw freedmen by Bettie Ligon, at Ardmore, Ind. T., September 20, 1898. Subsequent thereto written application was made for the enrollment of Sophia Myrtle Douglass as a Choctaw freedman. It does not appear from the records of this office that at the time application was made for the enrollment of the petitioners as Choctaw freedmen, or at any time subsequent thereto and prior to December 25, 1906, was any application made for the enrollment of any of said petitioners as a citizen by blood of the Chickasaw Nation. The records of this office show that on September 9, 1896, original application was made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of Bettie Ligon, Hadley Ligon, Mabel Ligon, Natt Ligon, Clarence Ligon, Mitchell Ligon, and Gladys Ligon as citizens of the Chickasaw Nation. All of said applicants, except Hadley Ligon, claimed rights to enrollment by blood, and as descendants of a former slave woman. Hadley Ligon claimed right to enrollment by reason of his marriage with Bettie Ligon. On November 8, 1898, their application was rejected by the Commission, without prejudice to the applicants' claim as freedmen; no appeal was taken from the decision. It is not alleged m the petition, neither does it appear from the tribal records of the Chickasaw Nation in the possession of this office, that any of the petitioners have ever been recognized by the tribal authorities of the Chickasaw Nation as a citizen by blood of said tribe ; nor has any of said petitioners been admitted to citizenship in the Chick- asaw Nation by any duly constituted court or citizenship committee of said nation, or the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, or the United States court under the pro- visions of the act of Congress approved June 10, 1896 (29 Stats., 321), or by the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court. The name of R. H. Love appears on the 1878 Chickasaw Annuity Roll. It can not be determined from the petition whether Bob Love, the alleged father of the principal petitioner, Bettie Ligon, is identical with the R. II. Love whose name appears on said roll. The allegation in the petition that Bob Love was a recognized Chickasaw Indian citi- zen is considered immaterial, inasmuch as it appears from the records of this office that the principal petitioner, Bettie Ligon, was born in the year 1865, and that neither she nor any of her children, the petitioners herein, has ever been recognized or enrolled as a citizen by blood of the Chickasaw Nation by any duly constituted authority. I am of the opinion that the petition fails to state facts sufficient to warrant a hearing upon the alleged rights of the petitioners to enroEhnent as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation; that the absence of any tribal recognition whatsoever of any of the petitioners as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation is conclusive under the pro- visions of the act of Congress approved May 31 , 1900 (31 Stats. , 221) , as to my jurisdiction to now receive or consider any application for the enrollment of any of the petitioners herein as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation; that the petition should be denied, and it is so ordered. Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. Mdscogeb, Ind. T., June 9, 1906. Mr. Ballinger. Did you receive any letters similar to the one there received from the Commissioner, either prior to or after the receipt of that? Mr. Lee. I did; some two or three. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 491 Mr. Ballingeb. What did those letters state? Mr. Lee. Substantially the same fact as stated in the letters here presented — that no application appeared of record. Mr. Ballingek. Did you at any time previous to the filing of the petition on which this decision is based nle a similar petition in this case? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballingek. If so, when? Mr. EoGEES. I tliink he ought to produce the petition or a copy of it and not refer to "simDar " letters or papers. I have no objection to the letters themselves going in. The Chairman. I think the objection is well taken, unless the original letters are accounted for or inability to account for them is shown. Mr. Ballinger. We can produce it at Ardmore. The Chairman. Very well. Senator Teller. At Ardmore? Mr. Ballinger. Will the committee give us any time at Ardmore ? The Chairman. No ; but we will give you opportunity at any time to produce these letters or any other documentary evidence. Mr. Ballinger. Did you appear in the case of Calvin Newbury as attorney? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballinger. Is that a copy of a letter you sent to the Secre- tary of the Interior under that date ? Mr. Lee. That is. The letter was put in evidence. It is as follows: June 20, 1906. The Sechbtaey of the Interior, Washington, D. C. Sir: I enclose herewith copy of the decision of the Commissioner to the Five Civi- lized Tribes in the matter of the petition of Calvin Newberry et al., for the transfer of their names from the freedmen roll to the roll of citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation, and especially call your attention to the paragraph therein which recites that "The records in the ofHce of the Commissioner show that no application had ever been made prior to December 25, 1902, for the enrollment of these parties as citizens by blood." I also invite your attention to my sworn statement, herein inclosed, which shows that application was made m 1896, received and filed by the Commission, that it was rejected, that appeal was taken to the United States court and there dismissed. As this application does not appear of record in the office of the Commissioner at Muscogee, and as there is an authentic United States court record, which shows it was made and received, I desire to very respectfully request to be informed by the Department if said application is on file in any bureau of the Department at Wash- ington. This statement of the Commissioner that applications do not appear of record is of great frequency, and inasmuch as the act of April 26, 1906, makes the records of the Commission conclusive as to applications, it becomes very important to know where the applications made m 1896-97 can be found by petitioners, as recourse to these records is absolutely necessary in the preparation of petitions, owing to the fact that it is of great difficulty to remember for so long a time the dates and details of filing applications. Under the act of Congress above referred to, petitioners can not establish, except by the records of the Commission, that they made application within the time prescribed by law, and when they are informed by the Commissioner that his records disclosed no applications they are absolutely helpless and without any means of showing that the Commissioner is in error. This is a matter of great importance, and it is respect- fully requested that the Secretary personally investigate the manner of keeping records by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, and take such steps as will insure parties having applications pending the right to search such records themselves, per- sonally, or by attorney. Very respectfully, Albert J. Lee. 492 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Ballinger. In the decision in the Newbury case there appears this: "It does not appear from the records of this office that any appli- cation was made for the enrollment of the petitioners, or any of tnem as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation prior to December 25, 1902." Did you subsequently find an application in that case? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballinger. If so, is that an affidavit you made relative to it? [Showing paper to witness.] Mr. Lee. It is. The Chairman. Why do you wish to introduce the affidavit? Why can you not prove by him exactly that ? Mr. Ballinger. lean. (To the witness.) Where did you find the original application? Mr. Lee. I never found the original application, but on the infor- mation of the applicant himself I round in the United States court at Ardmore, in the clerk's office of that court, a record showing that the original application made by this man had been certified to that court — certified by the Commission. Mr. Ballinger. You state in an affidavit made in this case the following : He further states that on the 20th day of June, 1906, he examined the docket of citizenship cases appealed from the decision of the Commission under the act of June 10, 1896, in the office of the clerk-ot the United States court for the southern district of the Indian Territory at Ardmore, and that therein he found the case of Callie Newberry- et al. V. The Chickasaw Nation, with entries as follows: First. Application of Callie Newberry for the enrollment of herself and Sam, Willie, Louis, Calvin, Mariah, Lula, and Ludia Newberry, made on the 31st day of August, 1896, and that notice was served on the Chickasaw Nation by registering a copy from the post-office at Elmore, Ind. T. Second. That said application was received by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes and: marked " Filed by H. M. Jacoway, secretary," on September 9, 1896. Third. That a demurrer was filed on October 21, 1896. Fourth. That the application and papers in the case were certified by the Commis- sion December 22, 1896. Fifth. That the appeal was dismissed on the 15th day of January, 1900. Is that correct? Mr. Lee. That is correct. Mr. Ballinger. Did you make inquiry at the office of the Com- mission this afternoon relative to the enrollment record in the case of Jesse McGee and his children ? Mr. Lee. I did. Mr. Ballinger. What, if anything, did you find? Mr. Lee. I found a field card entry of the names of Jesse McGee's children on a doubtful card for enrollment as citizens by blood of the Chickasaw Nation. Mr. Ballinger. Had you at any time previous made a request for that? Mr. Lee. I had made application to be informed as to whether or not they had made application for enrollment as citizens or were scheduled for enrollment as such. Mr. Ballinger. How did you happen to make application this afternoon as to whether they had made enrollment as citizens? Mr. Lee. Through conversation with a former employee of the Commission. They had never previously supplied me with this infor- mation. Senator Teller. What did they say about it before? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 493 Mr. Lee. They said it was not in existence. Even this afternoon they said it was not in existence until I took Mr. Franklin up there to cite it to them. Senator Teller. What passed? Mr. Lee. My first application this afternoon was made to the chief clerk, Mr. Belrord, who went to make search and said that the card was not in existence. I had a conversation then with Mr. Franklin, who told me he could put his finger on it. Mr. Beall asked me if Mr. Belford had made a search for it. I said yes. Then he said it is not here. I insisted that Mr. Franklin could find it and that if he would bring the index to the desk we would locate it. Then Mr. Beall turned to his own desk and said: "We have the freedmen enrollment of it," and I said that is the one I want, whether freedmen or not. I got a certified copy of it. Mr. Rogers. Mr. Lee has testified as to what that card contained, and I would like to have it in or a certified copy of it. Mr. Ballingee. I would like the card itself to be put in. The Chairman. One moment Mr. Rogers. That is a certified copy. The Chairman. I thought it was the original. Mr. Ballinger. I would like to insert in the record at the same time, following that, the record of the enrollment of Jesse McGee — certified copies by the Commission. This shows Jesse McGee and his family enrolled as citizens. Mr. Rogers. He says what it shows. I think the record will show for itself, without his description of it. The Chairman. I think that is sufficient evidence, without the remarks of counsel. Mr. Ballinger. I now offer the record of Jesse McGee' s wife and children enrolled as freedman. The Chairman. That is, a certified copy? Mr. Ballinger. A certified copy. 494 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. O S S ¥ P Z; t-i 1 s fl a a oi f? 1 a -(J Z ^ S o .0 M t^ s ■d ;h ^ ^ . 03 a D ^ f^ R (-1 s \» """ '6 H-y ffi M s ^ (TO < , cl -o ^^«s^ «■ s-^s.'^g l> O" ^ ;z; i« (D §a •"I OS Q> ^ r^ 4i -0 5^ d ^ _o 1 Im'-O P4 ;S~ A CJ ffl s m ^ mO m a » >j ■^.g < ^ H(^ W CD >, ■^ m n QJ -B Is s o 5^ :aS a> II Oi fs ^•^ ^. ^0 M s ° %>. ^ 1^ P4 »« 3 t>^ s rHT3 £-- r^ el Bi M-( y^ ni el , ^ a CD CJ CO t:J ci s y ^ 60 a5 S-^sfi Stag "'2 • "S*^ ri K e^ ^ a g ^ 1 1 S 1=1 'O oj "^ .S' f-> b R ^ +3 xl '^^ '^ 03 O .000000 g o o o o o o r^ b- r- 1-- 1-- 1». i> Oi Oi 3i ^ Oi Oi Oi 00 00 oc 00 00 CO CO o a ' o d d o d d I "O '^ 'O 'O 'O 'O r+0 rWrWrW r+tF+C*" hahsaan- U5 N O t- tD ■* rl , OJ . . . Q tH 0} t4 l-l M 2 lllllll FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 495 >:- ^ o e a Oh 1 £ n S §i !« m "^ PS p V o o •s -<2 Hi M io4 S t- II >- -,1^ <^ cS ■w 03 °S o c3 '^ m.^ •a^ S OJ ^ ao 1 li 1 a a ^Z Ot3 M-.^ iS a s o,d i* n |g t3 S 'o ^ §:^ M Q) a^ (D--H s6 ^:2 °i a . ^•S o !s rt ^fl -S,5 1) oj a> ■^a i P^ O CO 8s (—1 (U o m ^ SH-J3 ^1 »0 o +3 ■ < 1 &(ii.a aaaai^Sf^ 1 oQioo 1-1 1* o Tt< CO 6 d Relation- ship to per- son first named. s II CQ ^ M o m 1 i c p o o S a *c C u s CM I ^ i 1 o a C C 1 c ii3 -g < o a CO 1 1 > f ■>Q. > C u 1 '5 CI 1 1 P 6 1 1 1 C § C o I O o . s m 5 1 o a a (U Eh 6 « ^ n 1 o Lh d (U 03 JD ^1 _cn 1-1 03 XI O ^ i b a ■ ' * ■ O ' ' ' ■ M ■ ■ ' ' o ^ ■ ■ i . a § : : : : o ^ ; ! ! ; CD rf * d o o d d d d d 'g-H'D'O'a'O'O'O'O'O ) oj j= 6 ' ■ ! 125 ^^ : : : n' n a .* : : : o _w a ; ; 1 : o^ ^ ^ ^ £ a ■ ■ * (d ^l-H ■ I • pR S ^j o o o c 3 o o o o n-^'O-a-aT: 3'D'U'O'O oIq ' • ■ e^o : : : d +J ^ 1 "o MM? t< H tu rf ^ ■n CO 41 :g c3 tH M - t-.' (D fl ■•^ cd a s : i ; o go : : : ^ o . . . © cd^ O O O O d d d d >-s o -a t: TD -o -o T) -d -o | ^ ■Urn*'' o s : : : ■-H (N CO rf Id ^ t>- 00 Oi o j .H 1 m s o S-J s »^ m'S f? o •JS CQ O H'S.M ■3 ■^^ ■" m o o g n - n-1 r CD a? a S T-l c o OJ H > o ft a> Ph o > :j T^rrt -a a 3 60 n is > oj r^ M fin S fl n o £ 4^ T) a cS 0) 1— 1 > O 5^ .q ca .f^^ o-g TJ rn a r/1 J5 H rt TS a FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 497 Rccross-examination by Mr. Rogers : Mr. Rogers. Have you ever appeared before the Commissioner's ofRce and asked to see the record m this Jesse McGee case previous to to-day ? Mr. Lee. I have. Mr. Rogers. Have you represented Jesse McGee as attorney? Mr. Lee. I have and had. Mr. Rogers. Have you not been shown the record ? Mr. Lee. I have never been shown this record. Mr. Rogers. Just what did you ask for? Mr. Lee. I asked for any record showing the apphcation for enroll- ment of Jesse McGee's children as citizens. I did not specify this card because I did not know of its existence. Mr. Rogers. Did you not know that they were listed in the office of the Commissioner? Mr. Lee. I have seen a card in which they were listed as freedmen, but Jesse McGee told me that he had applied for their enrollment as citizens ; that I have never been able to obtain. Mr. Rogers. When did you ask for this card, aside frona to-day? Mr. Lee. I can not recall the exact date, but it was some time dur- ing this summer, when I took it up with Mr. Bixby and Mr. Beall, the question whether the record of this case showed sufficient docu- mentary evidence to bring these people within section 4 of the Five Civil- ized Tribes bill — some time during the latter part of the summer. Mr. Rogers. You stated that you went to Mr. Belford to-day, one of the clerks of the Commission, and asked for this card. You are familiar with the work of the office of the Commissioner, are you not ? Mr. Lee. Not as much so as I would like to be. Mr. Rogers. You know the work which Mr. Belford ordinarily does is not connected with the ordinary work of the office. Do you not ordinarily go to Mr. Beall or Mr. Johnson for that ? Mr. Lee. I have been informed on numerous occasions that Mr. Belford was the clerk in charge of certified copies, and that is what I wanted this afternoon, a certified copy of this record. TESTIMONY OF MR. WIBT FRANKLIN (Resumed). Redirect examination by Mr. Ballinger: Mr. Ballinger. While you were in the employ of the Commission and in the legal division, was your attention called to the Jesse McGee case ? Mr. Franklin. I had that case on my desk for decision at one time. Mr. Ballinger. State what, if anything, transpired ? Mr. Franklin. The Jesse McGee card was one of those cases follow- ing the Molsey Butler case that I had on my desk, that Mr. Beal directed me to deny, when he said, " Deny all these niggers." In look- ing up the case, in preparing it for decision, I discovered another case, this freedman case where they had finally been enrolled as freedmen and therefore could not enroll them as citizens by blood, because their enrollment as freedmen had already been proved. I could not deny them, because I did not think they ought to have been denied, their father being on the final roll as citizen by blood. Mr. Ballinger. What then did you do ? 498 I'lVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Mr. Franexin. I called the attention of Mr. Beall to the matter that they had been enrolled as freedmen and that there was an applica- tion pending for enrollment as citizens by blood, and asked him if he should not write a letter to the Department asking that their enroll- ment as freedmen be cancelled. Mr. Ballingee. What did Mr. Beall say, if anything ? Mr. Franklin. I do not remember his exact words. Mr. Ballingee. In substance. Mr. Franklin. The substance was to let it go for the present, and I turned the case back into the fil^s. Mr. Ballingee. Was anything done with that case while you remained with the Commission? Mr. Franklin. Not to my knowledge; nothing further was ever done. Mr. RoGEES. For the purpose of expediting this matter, as I see that the line of testimony has to do with these freedmen cases, we will admit that the Commissioner and the Commission to the Five Civil- ized Tribes have held constantly up to the time that the decision ia the Jo and Dillard Perry case was rendered,- that the children of freedmen mothers followed the enrollment of their mother unless they showed tribal recognition or admission to citizenship by blood. That has been the consistent attitude of the Commission and Department until the decision was rendered in the Jo and Dillard Perry case. Mr. Ballingee. Mr. Rogers, will you not ple9.se supplement your statement with a statement as to how you arrive at that conclusion? The Chairman. Mr. Rogers is not under examination, Mr. Bal- linger. Mr. Ballingee. I know that, Mr. Chairman, but I still think it is material. The Chaieman. You can call him as your witness if you think it material. Mr. Ballingee. I call Mr. Tams Bixby. Mr. Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, was duly sworn by the chairman. TESTIMONY OF MR. TAMS BIXBY, COMMISSIONER TO THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Direct examination by Mr. Ballingee : Mr. Ballingee. Mr. Bixby, were you with the Commission The Chaieman. You had better first identify Mr. Bixby. Mr. Ballingee. What is your name, officialposition, and residence? Commissioner Bixbt. My name is Tams Bixby. I am Commis- sioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. I live in Muscogee. Mr. Ballingee. Were you in the field when applicants were ex- amined and identified under the act of 1898? Commissioner Bixby. I was in the Chickasaw Nation in the fall of 1898. Mr. Ballingee. Were you in charge of the examination and identi- fication of either the citizens by blood, freedmen, or intermarried ? Commissioner Bixby. I presided ia the tent at which the applicants who claimed enrollment by reason of Chickasaw blood or Choctaw blood presented themselves. Mr. Ballingee. Did you and your associates decide at Stonewall, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 499 September 1, 1898, that all persons of mixed Indian and negro blood should be listed for enrollment as freedmen ? The Chairman. I think that has been admitted, has it not — that that was the rule that was followed ? Mr. Rogers. Not so broadly. Commissioner RiXBY. No, sir; we made no decision at that time. Mr. Ballinger. That was the rule, though, that was followed, was it? Commissioner Bixby. In what way? Mr. Ballinger. That all persons of mixed Indian and negro blood appearing before your Commission were listed for enrollment as freeman. Commissioner Bixby. All persons were enlisted for enrollment in accordance with their application either on what we called a regular card or a doubtful card. Mr. Ballinger. What application ? Commissioner Bixby. The application that they made. Mr. Ballinger. Were they directed or required to make applica- tion? Commissioner Bixby. I do not remember whether they were di- rected or required, but they did come before us at various points in the Chickasaw Nation for the purpose of being enrolled. Mr. Ballinger. The law did not require them to make applica- tion, did it ? Commissioner Bixby. I do not think it did. Not in that form, as you put it now. Mr. Ballinger. Did you deny any person the right to make appli- cation for enrollment as a citizen by blood ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir. Mr. Ballinger. If a person of mixed Indian and negro blood appeared at the citizenship tent, was he permitted to make applica- tion for enrollment as citizen ? Commissioner Bixby. As I recollect it he was. Of course I would not be entirely certain as to everything that was done by everybody in all the tents and before all our officers. Mr. Ballinger. You know Charles Carter, of Ardmore, do you not? Commissioner Bixby. I think I do. Mr. Ballinger. Do you remember of his appearing at your tent and before you when the Commission was sitting at Pauls Valley in the year 1898 with an application for enrollment as a citizen by blood? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; I have no distinct recollection of it. Mr. Ballinger. You do not recollect having denied an applicant who returned with Charles Carter and after a prolonged argument you permitted her to make an application — an old Chickasaw woman ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; I do not recollect. Mr. Ballinger. Do you remember having denied James E. Hum- phreys to make application for a client for citizenship at Pauls Valley the same year ? Commissioner Bixby. I would have a remarkable memory if I could remember that. Several thousand people applied to us at those hearings that we had in the Chickasaw Nation. I can not remember everybody that applied or what was done with them. I can make a general statement that everybody who applied was per- 500 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. mitted to make application in accordance with their own notion about it. Mr. Ballingbr. As matter of fact were there not dozens and hundreds of appHcants who appeared before you and endeavored to make apphcation as citizens, whose apphcation was denied ? Commissioner Bixby. What do you mean — denied on the spot ? Mr. Ballinger. Whose application for enrollment as citizens by blood was refused by you ? Commissioner Bixby. On the spot do you mean ? Mr. Ballinger. Yes. Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; emphatically no. Mr. Ballinger. You did not compel persons of mixed Indian and negro blood to proceed from your tent to the tent where freedmen or negroes were being enrolled ? Commissioner Bixby. Certainly not. Mr. Ballinger. Where the father was a citizen by blood of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, his wife of negro blood, did you enroll his children upon the roll with the father or with the mother? Commissioner Bixby. We did not make any final enrollments at all in the field. Mr. Ballinger. How did you list them for enrollment ? Commissioner Bixby. Why if they appeared to be regular and their names were on the rolls of Indians, as furnished us by the tribes, we listed them in accordance with their application, but that was not fitnal. The final decisions were made afterwards in the office at Muskogee. Those enrollments in the field were tentative. People were put on the cards in the field who were afterwards denied. Mr. Ballinger. Was everything that was said by the applicant at the time he or she appeared before you for enrollment entered upon the examination record such as that [exhibiting paper to the witness]. Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; not at all. Mr. Ballinger. Such portions of their statements as you deemed proper to place upon it. Commissioner Bixby. We did not take any testimony in our tent at all. Mr. Ballinger. In the tent in which citizens of mixed Indian and negro blood appeared, did they enter everything said by the applicant. Commissioner Bixby. I do not know what you mean by that. In the tent where the freedmen applied, they did take some testimony. They did have some stenographers. I did not have anything to do with that. In the tent where I enrolled the Indians by blood, we simply made cards. We did not take any testimony at all. That is the proceeding we followed all through the Creek Nation. We did not take any testimony. Mr. Ballinger. Then if a person of mixed Indian and negro blood appeared at your tent, how do you know whether or not he appeared there? Commissioner Bixby. We did make a record. We made the card which is all the record we had in those cases. Mr. Ballinger. The examination record in the great majority of the cases of Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen do not show any assertion of right to enrollment as a citizen by blood, do they? Commissioner Bixby. I did not take those. I could not tell you unless I examined them later. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 501 Mr. Ballinger. Were those examination records the only records made by the Commission at that time? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; they made a card also in the Freed- men's tent. Mr. Ballinger. In the adjudication of cases before your Com- mission do you consider that card as a portion of the evidence? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. You do? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Where the examination record is silent upon the Indian blood and the field card shows the Indian blood of the father, do you consider that in connection with this record under the act of April 26, 1906? Commissioner Bixby. We would now; yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Would you in July of this year? Commissioner Bixby. Well, I should think so. Mr. Ballinger. Did you, in the Theoda Sparks case? Commissioner Bixby. I can not remember that case. You must remember that we have about 25,000 cases. Mr. Ballinger. You knew in November of last year that the examination records in practically all cases of mixed Indian and negro blood did not show any assertion of right to enrollment as citizens, did you not? Commissioner Bixby. I do not remember whether I knew that all the records showed that or not. I have no recollection of each par- ticular case. Mr. Ballinger. The great majority of the records? Commissioner Bixby. I expect they show, if you say so ; you prob- ably have examined them all. Mr. Ballinger. Knowing that to be true why did you draft a pro- vision of law or a tentative provision of law that made those records conclusive as to the rights of these parties? Commissioner Bixby. I do not know that I am under obligations to answer that. Still I will waive that. I submitted a draft of a law, under the direction of the Secretary, in conjunction with the chief law clerk and other employees of the Commission, embodying such provisions of law as I thought were fair and reasonable to protect the interests of the tribes and to facilitate business. That was not a law, by the way, but was submitted to Congress by the Secretary. Of course, what we drafted originally was submitted to the Secretary. Mr. Ballinger. Was it changed materially? Commissioner Bixby. Yes; very much. Mr. Ballinger. In what respect? Commissioner Bixby. I can not remember. In almost every respect. Mr. Ballinger. Have you not got a copy in your office of the original draft? Commissioner Bixby. I expect so. Mr. Ballinger. Will you furnish it to the committee ? I will show the committee in the next question why I am getting to that. The Chairman. Ask him that question first. (Laughter.) Mr. Ballinger. Prior to the time of drafting that act the Depart- ment had made a decision in the case of Jo and Dillard Perry, had it not? 502 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Commissioner Bixby. I believe it had. Mr. Ballinger. That under that decision every person of mixed Indian and negro blood was entitled to enrollment as a citizen pro- vided the records showed that they had made an assertion of right. Is not that so ? Commissioner Bixbt. I do not think that that is a correct state- ment. Mr. Rogers. I have no objection to that being introduced into the record. The Chairman. The witness has answered the question. Mr. Ballinger. At the time the decision in the case of Jo and Dil- lard Perry was rendered Commissioner Bixby. Which decision do you mean? Mr. Ballinger. The decision of November 11, 1905; were there not a good many cases of parties of mixed Indian and negro blood seeking a transfer of their name from the freedmen's roll to the roll of citizens by blood, then pending before your office? Commissioner Bixby. I think there were. Mr. Ballinger (showing a paper to the witness) . Is that a copy of the notice issued by your office under that decision and under date of January 2, 1906, to applicants? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, it looks like it. Mr. Ballinger. You state in this notice as follows : In cases of petitioners who do not appear from the records of this office to have form- ally applied for enrollment to the commission to the Five Civilized Tribes as citizens of the Choctaw or Chickasaw Nation within the time prescribed by law, the commis- sioner will require conclusive evidence to the effect that application was made or attempted to be made within the time specified for that purpose. And then you go on and promulgate rules. At that very time you were trying to secure the enactment of legislation that would prohibit any applicant from availing himself of that regulation, were you not? Commissioner Bixby. I do not understand that I was doing it. It was the Department, as I understand it. Mr. Ballinger. Either for yourself or for the Department you were urging the enactment of Sec. 4 of the Five Civilized Tribes bill, were you not ? Commissioner Bixby. Perhaps not in its present form. Mr. Ballinger. Was that section amended in any substantial respect from the time it was introduced into the bill, as originally introduced in the House, in December, until the time it was approved by the President ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes; I think it was. Mr. Ballinger. In what respect? Commissioner Bixby. It had some changes in it that were made, I believe, in conformity with your suggestions. Mr. Ballinger. As matter of fact, there was merely a provision inserted in the bill by the Senate committee permitting the introduc- tion of documentary evidence. Am I not correct ? Commissioner Bixby. I think that is about right. Mr. Ballinger. The rest of the bill was as sent to the chairman of the Indian Committee of the House ? Commissioner Bixby. By the Secretary; yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. If you had placed the names of those persons of mixed Indian and negro blood upon the field-card record during the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 503 examination, under the act of 1898, would not every one of those per- sons of mixed Indian and negro blood be on the tribal rolls to-day ? Commissioner Bixby. I think not. Mr. Ballinger. Why would they not ? Commissioner Bixby. I do not think they would conform to the decision of the Secretary of the Interior in regard to it. Mr. Ballinger. What decision do you refer to ? Commissioner Bixby. The decision in the Jo and Dillard Perry case. Mr. Ballinger. The Department in its ruling upon the Jo and Dillard Perry case uses the following language : The treaty right was to the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and their "descend- ants. ' ' Descendants, as pointed out in the case of James W. Shirley, is a term of wider signification than heirs or legitimate issue, and includes those springing from an ances- tor, whether legitimate issue or not. The descent of the applicants is fully and indubi- tably shown to be from Charles Perry, a Chickasaw by blood, recognized by him, and born of a union that he and Eliza evidently regarded as a lawful one, openly avowed and by the Chickasaw Nation tolerated, which it did not compel him to abandon, or impose the penalties of its law upon him for contracting and observing. That law properly enough imposed no penalty of contamination of blood upon the innocent issue of such union. I am therefore clearly of the opinion that applicants are entitled to be transferred to the roll of Ghickasaws by blood. Were all those cases practically similar to that except that in many cases there was a lawful marriage between the parents? Commissioner Bixby. I could not tell you from recollection. Mr. Ballinger. In that case the Department holds that where there has been no marriage the issue is entitled to enrollment as citi- zens, does it not? Commissioner Bixby. I think it does. Mr. Ballinger. Then in a case where the mother and father were lawfully married would not those children be likewise entitled to enrollment as citizens? Mr. Rogers. It seems to me that this is just questioning him about his own opinions. The Chairman. That is correct. It is just asking the legal opinion of the witness. Mr. Ballinger. Why did you not follow the opinion in the Jo and Dillard Perry case in the cases then pending before your office ? Commissioner Bixby. I expect we did. Mr. Ballinger. Did you decide a single case between November 11, 1905, and the date of the approval of the Five Civilized Tribes bill? Commissioner Bixby. I did not have time. Mr. Ballinger. That is, favorably to an applicant? Commissioner Bixby. I left' Muskogee on the 17th of November and was in Washington practically from that time until about the middle or latter part of May. Mr. Ballinger. Your employees were here? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. The acting commissioner was here? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Your law clerks were here ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Why was there a suspension in the adjudication of all of those cases ? Commissioner Bixby. The acting commissioner or law clerks never decided any case. 504 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Ballinger. Did you decide? Commissioner Bixby. Yes ; I finally decided, always. The acting commissioner never decided a case to my knowledge. Mr. Ballinger. Did you examine the records in these cases Mr. Rogers. I object to that question. Mr. Bixby signs these decisions and they are his decisions. The Chairman. He may' ask the question. Commissioner Bixby. I attempt to. Of course it is a pretty big task. I sit up nights trying to do it and work practically sixteen to eighteen hours a day trying to do it, but of course I depend largely on my legal department. I do not claim to be a lawyer of course, but I do the best I can. Mr. Ballinger. Do you intend that the committee shall under- stand that in all citizenship cases decided by your Commission and over your name you have examined the records in those cases ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; I do not pretend that I have exam- ined every part of the record. In some cases I do. I have read a great many cases, every word of them, but I do not read all the testi- mony in every case. I admit that. It would be an absolute physical impossibility. Mr. Ballinger. Did the Acting Commissioner ever decide any cases ? Commissioner Bixby. Not to my knowledge. Mr. Ballinger. I desire to offer in evidence a list of cases decided by the Acting Commissioner. The Chairman. Why do you do that — ^for the purpose of disputing Mr. Bixby' s testimony? Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you dispute your own witness? Commissioner Bixby. If Mr. Beall ever decided cases it never came to my knowledge. Mr. Ballinger. I do not introduce it merely for the purpose of disputing him, but for the purpose of establishing facts. Senator Long. What relevancy has it, whether the Assistant Com- missioner decided it or not ? Mr. Ballinger. If the Acting Commissioner had been in the habit of deciding cases, then these cases might have been acted on during the Commissioner's absence. The Chairman. I think that is very remote ; but if you have those decisions, file them. Mr. Ballinger. When you issued the notices to applicant on January 2, 1906; did you intend to permit any one of those applicants to avail themselves under that notice ? Commissioner Bixby. I never had any other notion whatever. That was issued in absolute good faith. Mr. Ballinger. What is the purpose of section 4 of the Five Civil- ized Tribes bill? Commissioner Bixby. It speaks for itself. Mr. Ballinger. There are a good many who have been unable to ascertain its purpose. Commissioner Bixby. Well, we have some difl&culty in finding out what the laws of Congress mean sometimes. Mr. Ballinger. You drafted it ? Commissioner Bixby. I do not say that I did. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 505 Mr. Ballinqer. You made the original draft? Commissioner Bixby. I helped prepare it; yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. What was your object in inserting that section in the bill? Commissioner Bixby. My only object in drafting that entire bill was conformably to the direction of the Secretary of the Interior to draft a bill (I believe that was what he said) ; to prepare a draft of such legislation as the Commissioner or his office thinks needed for the winding up of the affairs of the Five Civilized Tribes. Mr. Ballinger. Why did you think that was needed ? Commissioner Bixby. I am unable to say just at present why that particular paragraph was needed. I thought the whole bill was needed, as I drafted it when it went down. I certainly had no object except what I thought was right and conformable to the ideas of what I thought Congress wanted us to do down in this Territory; no other object in the world. Mr. Ballinger. Did you not know at that time that that would bar all of these applicants? Commissioner Bixby. I was not thinking about any special appli- cant. Mr. Ballinger. You know now that it has barred them, do you not? Commissioner Bixby. No; I do not know it absolutely, because I do not know that anybody is barred who ever had a drop of Choctaw blood or Chickasaw blood. Mr. Rogers. Shall I be confined at this time to the cross-examina- tion of Mr. Ballinger's direct, or can I ask any questions I wish in regard to the charges made by Mr. Ballinger? The Chairman. Ask anything you want. Cross-examination by Mr. Rogers : Mr. Rogers. Were you Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes in May and June, 1903? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Rogers. Were you in charge of the Commission directly on Junes, 1903? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; I was in Washington, I think. Mr. Rogers. Where were you at that time? Commissioner Bixby. I tmnk I was in Washington. That is my recollection. Mr. Rogers. Who was in charge of the general offices in Muskogee at that time? Commissioner Bixby. I think Major Breckenridge was in charge. Mr. Rogers. Do you know whether at that time there was a fur- lough of employees of the Commission? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir; June 3 to June 30, inclusive, I believe. Mr. Rogers. What was the cause of that furlough? Commissioner Bixby. The disbursing officer had a little misunder- standing about the funds that were available and we ran out of money. Mr. Rogers. Were the employees furloughed without pay ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. How many employees were retained, if any ? Commissioner Bixby. I think there were perhaps half a dozen. I S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 33 506 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. never examined into the matter very definitely, but I expect a half dozen or so. Mr. Rogers. Do you know anything about the employees in this limited time between June 3 and June 30, 1903, accepting any other occupation? Commissioner Bixby. I have understood that several of them did. Mr. Rogers. So far as you know did any of the members of the Commission object to the employees taking other work at that time so long as it did not interfere with their work as employees of the Commission ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; none of the Commissioners objected. Mr. Rogers. Do you know anything about Mr. William 0. Beall, the present secretary of your office, accepting employment at that time? Commissioner Bixby. I knew that he had accepted employment. I found after coming from Washington that he had accepted employ- ment. Mr. Rogers. Do you know where? Commissioner Bixby. He was employed at South McAlester in the ofiice of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish. Mr. Rogers. Do you know the nature of his work there ? Commissioner Bixby. I only know what he told me. I do not know of my own knowledge. Mr. Rogers. What did he say? Commissioner Bixby. He told me — and I think he made a state- ment over his own signature — that he was preparing cases that were to be, or were, in the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court — not, perhaps, that he was exactly preparing cases, but that he was pre- paring the data on which the cases were to be prepared, as I under- stood it. Mr. Rogers. Were those cases pending at that time before the Commission ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; they were not before the Commis- sion; if those were the only cases that he was at work upon, they were not ijefore the Commission. Mr. Rogers. Did you, at the time that Mr. Beall engaged in this work or afterwards, object verbally or in writing to his taking this work? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir. I understood that Major Brecken- ridge had gone into the question before he took emplojrment and had approved it. It seemed all right to me. Mr. Rogers. Do you know of Mr. Beall 's having passed on any cases which were before the citizenship court at that time, or which might have been handled by him in the office of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir. Mr. Rogers. Will you state briefly the method pursued in the preparation of decisions in your office? Commissioner Bixby. The testimony, when it has all been taken, is given to a law clerk in the particular division Mr. Ballinger. This is all set forth in the answer of the Commis- sioner, and under oath. Mr. Rogers. If you will admit it we will not continue. The Chairman. I have not seen the answer. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 507 Senator Teller. Is it material? Mr. Rogers. It is material to the charges which have been made. They charge that Mr. Beall decided cases contrary to law and to the evidence, and we simply wish to show the procedure that has been carried out. Mr. Ballingee. I could not admit the procedure set out there. The Chairman. Well, Mr. Rogers, go on with your question. Mr. Rogers. Will you answer the question, please ? Commissioner Bixbt. After the evidence has been taken the case is given to a law clerk in a particular division in which the case belongs, the Commissioner having several law clerks in each division. After the law clerk to whom the case is originally given has prepared a decision which in his judgment is in accordance with the law and the evidence, that decision is passed on to the chief of the division, the chief law clerk of the division or chief of division, and is reviewed by him. Then it passes to the secretary, or to Mr. Beall ; that is, a Choctaw or Chickasaw case, to be checked up by him as to whether it is in form as following precedents, and by him handed to the chief law clerk for his review. All cases go through the hands of the chief law clerk, and from the chief law clerk passed to the Commission when the Commission was in existence, or, now, to the Commissioner. Mr. Rogers. Does the complete record in the case accompany the decision on its round through the office ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes; in every case, clear around to the Commissioner. Mr. Rogers. Is it attached to the decision? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. When that decision is signed, if it is an adverse deci- sion, what action is taken? Commissioner Bixby. In all cases that are denied by the Commis- sion or the Commissioner the decision and the complete record are for- warded to the Department. Mr. Rogers. That is, whether the parties take an appeal or not? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. , Mr. Rogers. Are the parties and their attorneys, if they have one or more, furnished with a copy of the decision of the Commissioner or Commissioners ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. That is, immediately after it is rendered? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. In the case of favorable decisions, that is, decisions favorable to the applicant, what action is taken ? Commissioner Bixby. If it is favorable to the applicant the national attorneys of the nations to which the particular case pertains are given notice and a copy of the decision and are given fifteen days in which to file protest, and if they do not file protest in that time the case is declared to be favorably adjudicated, and is then sent up to the Department. Mr. Rogers. What was then done about persons having favorable judgments ? Commissioner Bixby. They are put on a schedule, sent up to the Department, and, on the approval of the Secretary, become part of the tribal roll. 508 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. RoGEES. Do all these schedules constituting part of the tribal rolls go to the Secretary of the Interior? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. For his consideration? Commissioner Bixby. Every one. Mr. Rogers. Do all of these denied cases go to the Secretary of the Interior before any action is taken by your office in the way of reject- ing the person and depriving them of their rights as applicants ? Commissioner Bixby. Before they are finally deprived of their rights, yes, sir; in every case. Mr. Rogers. There is one point I would like to clear up about this field work. In some of the testimony there was something said about enrolling these applicants. In 1888 and 1899 you made enrollment. Was that the final act enrolling those people at that time ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; I said it was tentative. Mr. Rogers. They were listed on cards at that time? Commissioner Bixby. That was what was done and what it was called. Mr. Rogers. And the enrolling actually took place subsequent to that tiine? Commissioner Bixby. When the names were placed on the schedule. Mr. Rogers. In the preparation of these decisions, are the employ- ees of your office instructed to make a part of the record all the records of yoiu- office, including the records made in 1896 under the act of June 10, of that year and the records made or received under all subsequent acts? Commissioner Bixby. That is the procedure now; yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. That is, all the records pertaining to that applicant's enrollment are considered in the preparation of the decision ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. - Mr. Rogers. That is your object and that is the instruction which you have given your employees, is it ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. What have you done in the matter of encouraging any of your employees through whose hands a decision passes to set forth in full their views, either by a note on the decision or to you personally. Commissioner Bixby. I have always encouraged that in all depart- ments of the business; not only the legal department, but all others. I desire always to have the opinion of all my employees. I think I have a number of bright men and I am glad indeed to have their views. Mr. Rogers. These records and decisions that come up to you, do they frequently hold opinions in which the employees disagree, some holding one view and some another? Commissioner Bixby. Frequently, three or four different views; yes, sir. Mr. Rogers. In regard to the draft of legislation and the Jo and Dillard Perry decision, I would like to call your attention to this printed copy of the opinions of the Department and the Assistant Attorney-General in regard to that case [hands a paper to the wit- ness]. Can you refer there to the particular opinion in which it was held that it was necessary for those persons to show that application had been made for their enrollment prior to December 25, 1902, or within the time prescribed by law? Mr. Ballinger. The decision speaks for itself. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 509 The Chairman. He can ask it, if the witness can refer to it. Commissioner Bixby. I can' not see it. Mr. Rogers. I refer to this particular opinion which was rendered by the OflSce of the Attorney-General, November 11, 1905, and which was approved by the Department and forwarded to the Commission November 18, 1905. I would like you to state whether that draft of legislation was prepared in your office prior to that tim^? The Chairman. You mean the draft of section 4 ? Mr. Rogers. The draft of legislation to which they referred. Commissioner Bixby. That was drafted some time prior to the receipt of this opinion. Senator Teller. Not prior to the date of the opinion, but prior to the receipt? Commissioner Bixby. I think it was prior to the date. I left Muskogee on the 17th and I know it was prepared some time prior to that. Mr. Ballinger. Which decision do you mean? Commissioner Bixby. The Joe and Dillard Perry case. Mr. Ballinger. There, are two opinions. Commissioner Bixby. The opinion of November 11, 1905. Mr. Rogers. I would like to have you state whether that is the letter [handing letter to witness] in which that draft is transmitted, and give the date of it, to refresh your memory. Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir; dated October 13, 1905. Mr. Rogers. I will have you refer to this letter [referring to another letter] dated October 16, 1905. Mr. Ballinger. Does that contain an explanation of section 4? Mr. Rogers. It contains an explanation of all the recommenda- tions made by Mr. Bixby at that time. Senator Teller. Explanation by whom? Mr. Rogers. Mr. Bixby was asked by the Secretary of the Interior to prepare a draft of legislation to be presented to Congress. He prepared that draft and sent it in with a letter giving his reasons. Senator Teller. Does this contain a copy of the draft ? The Chairman. It contains the letter which accompanied the draft. Senator Teller. But not a copy of the draft? Commissioner Bixby. This is the letter explaining it, dated October 16, 1905. Mr. Rogers. Both these letters were prior to the decision of the Department in the Jo and Dillard Perry case in which they held that it was necessary for both those people to make application within the time prescribed by law. Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Do you offer that in evidence? Mr. Rogers. No; it is a permanent record of the office and I pre- sented it to refresh Mr. Bixby' s memory. We have no objection to the committee having copies of it. Mr. Ballinger. I would like to have that portion of it relating to section 4 inserted in the record. Mr. Rogers. I have no objection to the whole letter going in. Mr. Ballinger. I do not care about any portion of it except that portion relating to section 4. The Chairman. That is the only portion having relation to this matter before us. 510 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Rogers. T will state that this draft was changed materially in the Department, and also after it was sent to Congress. It wouli be hard to identify section 4 herewith that that went into the bill. The Chairman. Can you not identify the reference to the subject- matter of that particular legislation sought. Mr. Rogers. After you went to Washington will you state what action was "taken there in regard to preparing a draft of legislation to be submitted to Congress. Commissioner Bixby. When I reached Washington I was advised by the Secretary of the Interior that he had received my communi- cation submitting the proposed bill and that he had appointed a committee, consisting of Judge Luther R. Smith, chief of the Indian Territory division, Mr. W." C. Pollock, of the assistant attorney-gen- eral's office, and George A. Ward, chief law clerk of the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, to act as a committee to go through this proposed legislation and formulate a bill to be reconunended to him, and that he desired me to sit with them and to confer and render such assistance as I could. We did meet, held various sessions for about two weeks, I think. The committee formulated a bill which was signed unanimously by the committee, sent to the Secretary, and by the Secretary sent to Congress. Mr. Rogers. Was that draft the same as the draft which you had prepared in your office and sent to the Secretary? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir. Mr. Rogers. There were many changes in it, were there? . Commissioner Bixby. Yes; many changes, and there were some things that I thought very important in that bill that were stricken out entirely. Senator Teller. Will you put in the copy of the draft of that proposed legislation? Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. We will furnish one only; we have not got it here now. We will fumi h it to-morrow. The Chairman. You have stated that, so far as your recollection goes, decisions were never made by the assistant commissioner or anybody else in your absence? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are the affairs of your office so conducted that you can leave it for the time you mention, from November to May, and have nobody there who is qualffied to render decisions in cases pending during, that time, or has somebody there authority to decide if the cases should be finally ready for decision? Commissioner Bixby. The acting commissioner, during my absence, decided, I think, many small matters, such as apphcations for re- linquishment and routine matters, and sent a number of citizenship cases to me at Washington — cases that I think, perhaps, had been pending a long time in the office. The Chairman. But I am asking as to the general rule of the office. Is there no person there who is authorized during long absences, such as you have mentioned, to decide upon cases that are pending ? Commissioner Bixby. You mean citizenship cases ? The Chairman. Any cases that are pending. Commissioner Bixby. I think the acting commissioner is fully authorized from the Secretary. He has a letter from the Secretary FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 511 authorizing him fully to act in my stead when I am out of the Ter- ritory. Senator Teller. He can go over any subject, can he, as well as you can? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir; I think so. I never asked him as to any of those cases, and as Mr. Ballinger said, perhaps he did; I never knew if he did; it was never called to my attention. I had no notion that he did decide any citizenship cases, but he was fully authorized to do it. Redirect examination by Mr. Ballinger: Mr. Ballinger. You have said that your preparation of the Five Civilized Tribes bill was thirty days or thereabout prior to the ren- dition of the second decision of the Jo and Dillard Perry case. Is that it? Commissioner Bixby. We commenced it, I think, as much as thirty days before that. Mr. Ballinger. The first decision in the Jo and Dillard Perry case was when ? Commissioner Bixby. In February, 1905. Mr. Ballinger. That completely changed the lines of decision of your office, did it not — it reversed entirely the line of cases, did it not ? Commissioner Bixby. It probably would reverse the cases that came directly in line with the Jo and Dillard Perry -case. That case is a peculiar case. It is a case, probably, by itself, almost. Mr. Ballinger. Was not the same question involved as in all those cases ? Commissioner Bixby. I think not exactly. Mr. Ballinger. That case was decided, you say, when — the first decision ? Commissioner Bixby. I would not be certain about it, but I think in February, 1905. Mr. Ballinger. You knew that a decision on an application in review, in that case, was about to be rendered by the Department, did you not ? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir; I could not tell you anything about when the Department is going to render a decision. Mr. Ballinger. You knew it was pending before the Department ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. Did you not intend to anticipate the decision of the Department in that case ? Commissioner Bixby. I certainly never had that in mind. Mr. Ballinger. Why did you not adjudicate any of the cases in the Department ? Commissioner Bixby. I have all the time had from 1,500 to 2,000 cases ahead of me ever since I became Commissioner. I could not tell you why I did not decide any single case. I am crowded to the wall all the time with cases. I took cases home at night and took them up at 5 o'clock in the morning, and worked on them. Mr. Ballinger. These cases have been pending in your office for the last four years, have they not ? Commissioner Bixby. There are a good many cases that have been pending there longer than that. Mr. Ballinger. Longer than four years ? 512 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Commissioner Bixbt. Yes. You know we can not decide 25,000 cases at once. Senator Teller. Did your office go on and adjudicate these cases at all — I mean cases similar to the Jo and Dillard Perry case ? Commissioner Bixby. The first decision, you know, denied Jo and Dillard Perry, in February, and the one we received November 11, enrolling Jo and Dillard Perry — no, that denied. Mr. Ballinger. The one in February admitted them? Commissioner Bixbt. I think we were proceeding as fast as we could with those cases. Mr. Ballinger. Did you decide any? Commissioner Bixby. I could not say definitely whether we did or not. Mr. Ballinger. Will not your record show ? Commissioner Bixbt. Certainly. Mr. Ballinger. Will you get the record ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Will you also show the cases that were favorably decided. There were some adversely decided. Will you furnish the favorable cases ? Commissioner Bixby. If we find them. Mr. Ballinger. How did it happen that immediately after the passage of the Curtis Act there were some hundreds of notices instantly issued from your- office in those cases ? Commissioner Bixby. I can not remember. We sometimes get out a hundred cases in a few days. I do not remember about things away back in 1898. Mr. Ballinger. It might have been just an accident ? Commissioner Bixby. It might have been an accident, yes. Mr. Ballinger. After the Five Civilized Tribes bill became a law The Chairman. You mean the last one ? Mr. Ballinger. Yes — the bill approved April 26, 1906. Commissioner Bixby. I told you how I found out after I came from Washington that I had a great deal of work piled up in relation to cases that had not been attended to because of my absence, and I went home and was at home a couple of weeks working on those cases and deciding them. Mr. Ballinger. They were all decided under the provision of the Five Civilized Tribes act making the record conclusive, were they not? Commissioner Bixby. Oh, no. There were all kinds of cases, you know. Mr. Ballinger. This line of cases? Commissioner Bixby. I could not tell you how many were on this line. I presume there were very few. They might have been m course of preparation during the winter. I do not loiow. Mr. Ballinger. You know that Mr. Lee had quite a number of cases pending in your office? Commissioner Bixby. I understand from him that he has about 900 or so, I think he said. I did not, but I knew that we had a great number of cases. Mr. Ballinger. While you were in Washington you set days for these cases here in the Territory, did you not, and put Mr. Lee and his clients to great expense coming to Muskogee to hear evidence? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 513 Commissioner Bixby. That I do not remember. Mr. Ballinger. You set the day for the hearing? Commissioner Bixby. I do not remember. Mr. Ballinger. Did you not appear before Luther E. Smith in Washington with Mr. Lee and there decide on the days when the hearings should be had? Commissioner Bixby. That may be possible. If he says so, it is true, but I do not recollect. Mr. Ballinger. You know that hearings were had in those cases ? Commissioner Bixby. I do not know at this moment of my own knowledge. I presume there were. Mr. Ballinger. You know that there were before the approval of the Five Civilized Tribes bill? Commissioner Bixby. I do not remember. Mr. Ballinger. Were they not all filed under your regulations of January 2, 1906? Commissioner Bixby. I expect they were subsequent to that. Mr. Ballinger. Every case of his that has been decided since the approval of the Five Civilized Tribes bill? Commissioner Bixby. I do not know. I do not keep track of who the attorneys are in cases. Mr. Ballinger. After you had promulgated those regulations you still continued to urge the enactment of that legislation, did you not?. Commissioner Bixby. I urged the enactment of that entire bill; every part of it. Yes, sir, so far as I was given the opportunity. Mr. Ballinger. You referred to the employment of William O. Beall by the firm of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish. What services did you say he rendered to said attorneys ? Commissioner Bixby. Perhaps I am not able to give the best evidence as to that. I only mow from what he told me and what others had told me. Mr. Ballinger. He told you that it was to prepare citizen papers that were to go before the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizen court, did he not? Commissioner Bixby. He told me he was working at them. Mr. Ballinger. How many of those cases have come to the com- mission for adjudication since that time? Commissioner Bixby. I think that under the decisions of the Department since then there have been quite a number. Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Beall has passed on those cases, has he not ? Commissioner Bixby. Not to my knowledge. Mr Ballinger. He does pass on those cases, does he not? Commissioner Bixby. Not to my knowledge, except in the way I have explained. Mr. Ballinger. They pass through his hands, do they not? Commissioner Bixby. They do to a limited extent. Mr. Ballinger. He issues instructions to the law clerks, does he not? Commissioner Bixby. Not to my knowledge. Mr. Ballinger. As acting commissioner, does he not ? Commissioner Bixby. He may when I am away; I could not tell you. I can tell you in a general way that he runs the office. 514 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Ballinger. You remember the Lula West case decided by the Commissioner some time ago? Commissioner Bixbt. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. That case was before the citizenship court, was it not? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Ballinger. He prepared that case, did he not? Commissioner Bixbt. I do not know. I have no way of knowing; Mr. Ballinger. You have never thought it proper to preclude his passing on those cases that he may have acted on while m the office of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish? Commissioner Bixby. As I understand it • Mr. Ballinger. He prepared them, did he not ? Commissioner Bixby. I think not. I think he just prepared cer- tain data or something of that kind. Of course I could not tell you exactly because I do not know of my own knowledge, but I have no idea that he prepared the cases or tried them or did anything what- ever with them. Mr. Ballinger. You have testified relative to the transmission of the records in these cases to the Department, accompanying a decision. Is it a fact that when you transmit a decision you transmit to the Department the record in that case — in this line of cases ? Commissioner Bixby. Why, as I understand it, yes. Mr. Ballinger. You pass upon the decision, do you not? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir; as I understand it. Mr. Ballinger. Do you include the examination record in the field under the act of 1898? Commissioner Bixby. What do you mean ? Mr. Ballinger. In these transfer cases. Commissioner Bixby. If they make a case. We find in many of those petitions that are submitted, that if the allegations were true they would not make a case and we would send the petition with the recommendation that the case is not made. Mr. Ballinger. And you do not transmit the record in any case that is not made before your office? Commissioner Bixby. No, sir. Mr. Ballinger. That is the proposition. Now, Mr. Bixby, why did you, last winter, while in Washington, endeavor to make the decisions of your Commission final and conclusive in all cases? Commissioner Bixby. What is that ? Mr. Ballinger. Why did you attempt to secure a provision in the Five Civilized Tribes bill, which you did secure an insertion of in the Senate, making your decisions final and conclusive in all citizenship cases? Commissioner Bixby. I have no recollection of trying to do it at all. I never attempted to do it. Mr. Ballinger. It was inserted in the bill, was it not? Commissioner Bixby. Well, it might be. I am not responsible for the bill, Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Ballinger. It was inserted there after consultation with you, was it not ? Commissioner Bixby. Not that I know of. I never heard of such a thing before. I never had a. notion of that kind in my life. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 515 Recross-examination by Mr. Rogers : Mr. Rogers. Do you not remember that after the decision was rendered by the Department, the first decision in the Joe and Dillard Perry case, that a short time thereafter we received notice from the Department that a motion had been filed by the attorneys for them for a review in that case and were directed to suspend action on the final decision in those cases? Commissioner Bixby. I do not remember, sir. I expect I was in Washington at the time, was I not ? Mr. Rogers. It may be that you were. Shortly after the first decision by the Department in the Joe and Dillard Perry case, the Commissioner received notices from the Department that the attor- neys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations had filed in that case a motion for review, and the Department instructed the Commis- sion to suspend final action in the matter pending a decision in the cases. That motion was decided finally in November, 1905. Mr. Ballinger. If this goes into the record I should like to have the order of the Department directing the Commissioner to suspend action. Senator Teller. That is what he proposes should go in. The Chairman. I think that should go in. Mr. Rogers. We have not got it here, but we will get it and pre- sent it. Senator Teller. Better put it in in the morning, and we will be sure to have it. Mr. Rogers. In those petitions filed for the transfer of the names of persons from the freedmen's to citizens' roll or the roll by blood, dia not these parties or their attorneys ask for a hearing ? Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Rogers. Then if those cases were heard, as alleged by these parties, it was simply granting a request which they had made in their petitions? Commissioner Bixby. That is the way I understand it. Mr. Rogers. I want to ask you when the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court was created — by what act? Commissioner Bixby. By the act, I think, of July 1, 1902. Mr. Rogers. When those cases were submitted to the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court, did you anticipate that any num- ber of them would ever be readjudicated by your office? Commissioner Bixby. I did not expect we would ever have one of them. I supposed that the decisions of that court were final. Mr. Rogers. It was your opinion at that time that the decision of that court was final? ' Commissioner Bixby. Yes. Mr. Rogers. Was that your opinion in June, 1903? Commissioner Bixby. I had that opinion until the Department took a different view of it. Mr. Rogers. Was that different view of the Department taken subsequent to July 1, 1903? Commissioner Bixby. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballinger. I want to ask one more question. You stated, Mr. Bixby, that those dates for examination were set upon request of counsel in those cases? Commissioner Bixby. That is my understanding. 516 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Mr. Ballingee. Notice was issued by you to them that their cases would be adjudicated under the then existing law? Commissioner Bixby. Yes; I think so. TESTIMONY OF GEORGE D. ROGERS. Mr. Rogers was called as a witness by Mr. Ballinger and duly sworn by the chairman. Direct examination by Mr. Ballingee : Mr. Ballingee. You stated to the committee last evening that in the Boston-Colbert case the Commission held for the first time that the application made in 1896 operated as a continuing application. Is that true? Mr. RoGEES. I do not remember making that statement. Mr. Ballingee. You stated at the time and told me that that case was the first case decided of that kind. When did the Commission commence holding that way? Mr. Rogers. I think I have a copy of the first decision. It was in the Ellen Beagles case, and was rendered June 22, 1905. Mr. Ballingee. You have adhered to that line of decision since then? Mr. RoGEES. Yes, sir. Mr. Ballingee. I have in my hand a decision rendered under date of November 5, 1906, in the matter of George F. Peary et al., in which this appears: It does not appear from the records in the possession of this office that any application of any nature whatsoever has ever been made for the enrollment of said applicants as citizens of the Chickasaw Nation within the time limit limited by the provisions of the act of Congress of June 26, 1906. It appears, however, that on September 8, 1906, that in the case of George F. Peary et al., docket case 150, original application was made to said Commission under the provisions of the act of Congress approved June 10, 1896. And in your decision in that case this appears : I am of the opinion that following the rule of the Department in the case of Hayne Nelmes the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes in 1896 had jurisdiction over the applicant George F. Peary; that following the rule of the Department in the case of Laura E. Aiken the application made to said Commission in 1896 can not be considered aa a continuing application made for the enrollment of George F. Peary as a citizen by intermarriage of the Chickasaw Nation. Mr. RoGEES. I will have to qualify my statement in this regard. On May 25, 1906, the Department rendered its opinion in the Laura E. Aiken case, in which they held that when the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes decided a case under the act of June 10, 1896, and denied an applicant, and such action of the Commission was taken within its jurisdiction, that such a case was 'not a continuing applica- tion. When, however, the Commission in 1896 decided a case or attempted to decide a case and acted without their jurisdiction, that it was a continuing application. The distinction there was pretty hard to draw, but it amounts to about this: That those who were rightly denied in 1896 and could not be enrolled anyway, in those cases it is not a continuing application. In the cases in which the parties had a tribal enrollment or active recognition and were not denied in 1896, the Department held that it was a continuing applica- tion. These opinions of the Department we tried to follow as far as possible, but I call your attention to the fact that we are not respon- sible for those opinions. . FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 517 Mr. Ballinger. You received those, did you not ? Mr. Rogers. We did, and we attempted to follow the decision of the Department in the Laura Aiken case and in the Nelmes case, Mr. Ballinger. You stated here that you had uniformly followed that rule. Mr.. Rogers. I have just qualified my answer. In cases similar, however, to the Ellen Beagles case, we still hold that same way. Mr. Ballinger. Has the Department not held that when an appli- cant had a tribal status in 1896 the Commission was without power to deny them their right to enrollment and was compelled to place them upon the roll ? Mr. Rogers. If the party had a tribal status such as would entitle them to enrollment, in the event that there had been no adverse decision, the Department has held that the Commission in 1896 acted without its jurisdiction and that the party is entitled to enrollment. Mr. Ballinger. Did not the Commission hold in its recommenda- tion in December, 1900, that a marriage under tribal license was an enrollment, and has not that opinion been sustained by the Depart- ment? Mr. Rogers. Without refreshing my memory I could not tell whether the Commission in December, 1900, decided that point or not. Mr. Ballinger. Was not that one of the questions m the Mary Elizabeth Martin case ? Mr. Rogers. I will say that where a person was married in com- pliance with all the tribal laws, that was equivalent to a tribal enroll- ment. Mr. Ballinger. What constituted a marriage under the Chickasaw tribal laws? Mr. Rogers. I can refer you to the laws governing intermarriage in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. Mr. Ballinger. Do you not know? Mr. Rogers. I do. Mr. Ballinger. Well, then, state it. Mr. Rogers. In the case of which nation? Mr. Ballinger. The Chickasaw. Commissioner Bixby. Would not the law itself be better evidence ? The Chairman. I think the witness is able to take care of himself. Commissioner Bixby. I am not afraid of that. The Chairman. Of course there is no question but that the law itself is the best evidence. Mr. Ballinger. He is the law clerk of the Commission. Mr. Rogers. I am willing to say all I know about it. Mr. Ballinger. Go on and say. Mr. Rogers. Of course the law has changed from time to time. Mr. Ballinger. What is it now ? Mr. Rogers. There is no tribal law which permits persons to inter- marry in the Chickasaw Nation at the present time. Mr. Ballinger. Seven or eight years ago what was the law — between 1896 and 1900? Mr. Rogers. Between 1896 and 1900, in order for a person to marry a citizen of the Chickasaw Nation and obtain rights as an intermarried citizen of the Chickasaw Nation, it was necessary that they apply to the county judge of the Chickasaw Nation having jurisdiction and obtain a license. They thereupon having complied with the law and obtained 518 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. their license went before anyone competent to solemnize marriage and were married under that license. Mr. Ballingek. In that case there, does not the record show that he secured a license from the judge? Mr. Rogers. I have not got the record in that case. Mr. Ballingee. There is the decision. Mr. Rogers. You asked whether the record shows. Mr. Ballinger. The decision states what the record is, Mr. Rogers. I think this decision shows that the man did not com- ply with the tribal law. TESTIMONY OF MB,. O. L. JOHNSON. Mr. O. L. Johnson was called as a witness by Mr. Ballinger and duly sworn by the Chairman. Direct examination by Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Ballinger. In regard to this 1896 application, I would like to ask you whether when applicants applied to the Commission in 1896 their application was in itself a continuing application — the fact of the application alone ? Mr. Johnson. At what time during the work of the Commission ? Mr. Ballinger. At the present time or a year or two back up to 1 905 when that decision was issued. Mr. Johnson. I will say that originally my view at least of the law was that an application in 1896 for admission to citizenship, in the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations was not an application for enrollment. The two acts were entirely different. In 1896 the Commission was clothed with authority to try and determine the right of persons to be admitted to citizenship in these five tribes. In other words, to add their names in a way to the tribal rolls. In 1898 the Commission was acting under the Curtis Act and preparing a tribal roll upon which allotments of land and distribution of tribal moneys was to be made. Mr. Ballinger. Is it not a fact that at the present time and under the present ruling in order to determine whether an 1896 application is a continuing one, it is necessary to go into the merits of the case and determine whether the Commission had jurisdiction in 1896? Mr. Johnson. Oh, yes. As I stated in explaining these decisions the Department has held denying the party. It is not a continuing application. But that would have deprived these parties of no advan- tage any way, because when persons were denied in 1896 and the Commission had jurisdiction, at least in the case of Laura Aiken, she would be denied. Mr. Ballinger. Passing to the question of the requirement to be enrolled as citizens by intermarriage with the Chickasaw Nation, you are acquainted with the rulings of the Department in connection with that point. Is it a fact that if a person procured a Chickasaw tribal license that is of in itself sufficient to entitle that person to enrollment as a citizen of the Chickasaw Nation? Mr. Johnson. Not necessarily so, no. They must comply with the law in all respects. Mr. Ballinger. You are acquainted with the decision of the De- partment in the John Y. F. Blake case, are you not? Mr, Johnson. Yes. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 519 Mr. Ballingek. Did the Department not hold in that case that although the party had procured a Chickasaw license he was not entitled to enrollment as Being a married citizen inasmuch as he had not paid the required amount on his license. Mr. Johnson. They did. They held that he had not complied with the law in procuring his license, and was not entitled. Mr. Ballinger. That was the first case in which the Department went behind the license to ascertain whether it was procured legally or not ? Mr. Johnson. That is the first that I remember. Mr. Ballinger. In the case of George F. Peary referred to there, does not the act of the Chickasaw legislature provide that in order that a license fee should issue properly a person shall have a residence in the Chickasaw Nation for two years and have a petition signed by at least five citizens of the Chickasaw Nation, and a number of other requirements before he could procure a Hcense ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, and it is held there that the man did not com- ply with the law and for that reason it was not a continuing applica- tion and he was denied. Mr. Ballinger. What was the point decided in the Nelmes case? Mr. Johnson. That was very similar to this — that the man had not complied with the law in obtaining his license to marry. Mr. Ballinger. I want to ask you when it was that the Commis- sion held that the appearance of a person before the Commission in 1898 operated as an application and now they held that. Senator Long. 1898, do you mean, or 1896? Mr. Ballinger. Under the act of 1898. Mr. Johnson. The Commission when they started work under the act of June 28, 1898, wanted to prepare a list of those persons — find out who was entitled, and list them in such a way that their cases could be decided ; and, as I understand, though I will say now that I was not an employee of the Commission at that time, as I understand, they sent out notices and had these records. Mr. Ballinger. They were not directed to make application, were they? Mr. Johnson. I believe that the Department approved a certain system of conducting this work, and in that system was the making of applications by persons who desired enrollment. Mr. Ballinger. One word further in reference to that. As to the examination records, I have some here that I desire to offer together with the affidavits of the parties as to their blood, all of them copied from your records. There is the affidavit of Albert J. Lee, who had them copied. I oflFer them all in evidence. Mr. Johnson. I will not admit that these are copies of our records, without looking them over more carefully. (The papers will be, found inserted at foot of Mr. Johnson's testi- mony, with a letter from Commissioner Bixby, transmitting them to the committee.) Mr. Ballinger. You can examine them to-night and introduce them in the morning. Accompanying each one of these is a field card, is there not ? Mr. Johnson. All of the enrollment cases before the Commission in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations have what we call field cards; yes, sir. 520 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Ballinger. The field cards show the descent of these parties? Mr. Johnson. Families, so far as possible, are listed together, and it gives the names of the father and mother of the applicant and such other information as will assist in identifying them not only in the matter of enrollment, but also when they come up to make selection of allotments, if there is any doubt about identification. Mr. Ballinger. Were those field notes confirmed and made a part of the record under the act of this year — April 26, 1906 ? Mr. Johnson. What field notes do you refer to ? Mr. Ballinger. The examination records were made conclusive with the field notes, field cards, made a part of these records. Mr. Johnson. Well, yes; all field cards are a part of the records of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. We do not attach the field cards to the record which we send to the Department. Mr. Ballinger. In other words, you keep them for your own pri- vate information ? Mr. Johnson. Not for our private information. Mr. Ballinger. For your guidance ? Mr. Johnson. For our guidance, yes, and assistance in identifying the people, but the field card does not go with the record to the Department. Mr. Ballinger. And unless that record before you shows that the person made an assertion of right to enrollment he is barred. Mr. Johnson. I would say that we consider these in all of these cases. Senator Brandegee. You consider them in all cases, what? Mr. Johnson. We consider them in the office. We get the field cards and all the other records and we keep them in our office. Senator Teller. They are of record in your ofSce ? Mr. Johnson. Yes. It is in the nature of a census card. It shows a family and it shows the father and mother, and in the case of the- freedmen, as that is there, it shows the name of the person and of the father and mother. Senator Teller. Do you make these cards except in cases where people make application ? Mr. Johnson. Those cards were made when the parties made appli- cation. They were made just as the party came in. Senator Long. This is the only record of the application? Mr. Johnson. Oh, no. We take testimony with the application. Senator Long. I understand; but you require no written applica- tion? Mr. Johnson. We do not require them to file a written application; no, sir. Mr. Ballinger. Can you find a case or do you know of one in which the Commission decided that the question of right was not decided? Mr. Johnson. The only evidence on this card, where the Commission have decided in favor of the applicant — no, I could not now cite you a case of that kind. Mr. Ballinger. I want to offer here certified copies of the field cards and record in the case of Susan McCoy. Mr. Rogers. I have no objection to that going in. Mr. Ballinger. In cases where you have placed the mother and children on a freedmen card and a child has been born within the last six months, upon what record have you placed the name of that child FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. 521 Mr. Johnson. I expect the child goes with the mother and the rest of the children, but iwill state that in regard to these new-borns we have special cards for them. Mr. Ballingek. Children born within the last year are placed on the record with the father, are they not, while those born previously are on the freedmen's list ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; under the act of June 26, 1906, we have spe- cial cards. Mr. Ballingee. Where did you enroll McGee ? Mr. Johnson. I could not state at this time. The following papers were put in evidence by Mr. Ballinger : In the matter of the application of Joe Battiece to the Commission to the Five Civil- ized Tribes, at Goodland, Ind. T., May 9, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freedman. Being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles, and examined by him, et al. , he testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Joe Battiece. Q. What is your age?— A. 23. Q. What is your mother's name? — A. Lottie Shields. Q. Who did she belong to? — A. I don't know. Q. Anybody here know you? — A. Yes, sir. Dick Roebuck, being diily sworn, testified as follows: Q. Do you know who this boy's mother belonged to? — A. Yes, sir; she belonged to Daniel Miller. Q. What was he, Choctaw or Chickasaw? — A. Choctaw. Joe Battiece reexamined : Q. Are you married? — A. No, sir. I want to register my sister, Lily Le Flore. Q. Was her mother the same woman as your mother? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How old is she? — A. About 20 years old. And I have another sister, Jane Williams, by the same mother. (Enrolled Joe Battiece and two sisters as Choctaw freedmen.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smtlby. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 84 522 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. S 5 s ^ .3 g.S' M •Pf P d-d S .P- 0).-^ Wp^W lI "^ ^'o S s^i >H n.:-" t-4 0) 5 i J3 ^■^ ■tJ a m O (S IS ' fl s s "n eqrt a S o rt 03=3 a ^; ;z;w s t-i "3 >, el "3 5 r^ Mrt 't-l Eh t^ 13 J ej So 0) 5313 >^ o ; li 3 ifl ^ o o mn i oSo OSO.-H a sss ce Cl A. cy 1 o >, rf : +j ■^ ■ a o +3 • 1 R'O'd 1 1 '3 I fr< h 0=00 a CnO"-Oi .* 00 00 00 >^ I-(>-l,-l T 3 c > -J o O c > o-a-o 5 I ^ : : s OT :^P^s a MQO b D ■* -^ r-i < 1 |5i l^'S 1"^ ^ ■ ' ko^ ; '^co , fl^co 3 o)^ Il5 i ot> o ^ 0) O dj (S ca =3 iOtOI- d SS§ Z ■VtT'^' 1 05 OS 00 1 r-T C-> ^"d ^ «l«i? "y^ O S 5^ < f^S- "^ rTj ■s CO ^W ^ ■*^ a S PI fe ,1^ 3 c tcl bCT3 rt S3 (3 CJ 03 f% p. ^ ^ rJ:^ ■So o CD >^ ^ ft n r^ o o o a T3 s ■^ :3 ci o M fl j3 ?* +* ca r^ r^ m (_, ^« sa &n r^ a 03 T) "r—K 0) l> H^ O o « © M.^ -d O 0) boo ;3 - Jl m^ "rt d O 2 C3 ^^ a ta T1 fl FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. 523 tic ) c3 1 o A +» o 6 03 "in ■[3 o ^ S 1 n >^ t^ o JS o g s = o S E O) o o 1 iS ■^-a-o 1 ^ o ^ a> CI ^ o c:' "tH 1? (d XJ o3 o P^ xi iH u O 6 4-1 :zi fl o tH >. % d .2 ■ rO d o • O o3 ■ 03 XI ? COtDCC P^ OiCJCi S 00X00 03 i» to XI e3 t-i "o s ■■ J ' 1 " '■jj ; ^ 1"- W Or O ' t o^.S DQMtn -&1 p. m^ o O CO Gi Pi . a 2 S^ o el .2 ■a-' a> »^ >-< P< ° fc: %^ p c^ " CD E '^ saa O QJ ^^ s « ' > ^^ -(-3 "^ H c6 524 nvB oiviLizBD tribes. At 10.50 p. m. the committee adjourned till to-morrow, Saturday, November 17, 1906, at 9 a. m. The following are the papers offered in evidence by Mr. Ballinger during the examination of Mr. O. L. Johnson, at Muskogee, Ind. T., during the evening session of November 16, 1 906, but held in abeyance awaiting verification, consisting of examination records, affidavits of garties as to blood, etc., prefaced by a letter from Hon. Tarns Bixby, ommissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, transmitting the papers to the committee: Department op the Interior, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Ind. T., November ^4, 1906. To the Select Committee of the United States Senate on affairs in the Indian Territory. Gentlemen: On the night of November 16, 1906, while your committee was in session in Muskogee, Ind. T., and during the hearing before your committee on a complaint filed against the action of the office of the Commissioner to the Five Civil- ized Tribes in Indian Territory, Mr. Ballinger desired to introduce as evidence before you certain alleged copies of the records of this office. At that time objection wag made to their introduction for the reason that it did not appear that they were true copies of the original records, and they were handed to me for the purpose of having them compared with the originals before the reception of them by-your committee as evidence. On the next day Senator Brandegee, a member of your committee, asked me to have certified copies of these records prepared and sent to your committee sometime before it left the Indian Territory. In accordance with said request I have had prepared certified copies of the original records in my office, which were included in the alleged copies presented by Mr. Ballinger. These certified copies are herewith transmitted for your consideration. It will be noted that certified copies of certain of the affidavits filed with this office in enrollment cases have not been made. The reason for this is that the original affidavits have in these cases been forwarded to the Department, and therefore I can not make certified copies of them. In each case where the original affidavit has been forwarded to the Department I have noted the fact on the bottom of the affidavit over my signature and have given the date when the original was transmitted to the Department. Very respectfully, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. [Chickasaw Ireedmen card No. 1056. In re application of Oliver Colbert and others.] Sworn by Commissioner McKennon, Sallie Burton says: I belonged to Zack Colbert; I have brothers: Oliver Colbert, 40; his wife, Delia, is a United States citizen; he was married to her by Rev. Webster Cole; he has one child: Robert, 8. Simon Thompson, 30; his mother belonged to the same man; his wife, Ida, is a United States citizen; he was married to her by Rev. Charley Stewart, a Methodist. preacher; she has one child: Robert, 7. Colbert, October 12, 1898. Oliver Colbert, Robert Colbert, enrolled. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Sallie Burton given on October 12, 1898, in the matter of the application for the enrollment of Oliver Colbert, and others, as Choctaw freedmen, as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., Novemter 31, 1906. Affidavit of Oliver Colberts United States of America, Indian Territory, Central District: Oliver Colbert, first deing duly sworn, on oath states that he is48 years old, acitizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives in Shawneetown in said nation. Affiant further states that he is of one-half Choctaw and one-half negro blood, his father having been FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 51^5 Zacharia Colbert, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw citizen, and his mother having been a halt-breed Choctaw slave woman named Caldonia. Affiant further states that his father, with whom he lived until he was a large boy, always acknowl- edged him as his son. Affiant states that when he was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enrollment he stated to the Commission that his father was a full-blood Choctaw citizen, but that the Commission enrolled him as a freedman. Th'at he is now on the Choctaw freedman roll. Oliver (his x mark) Colbert. Witness to mark: R. F. Grafa, T. H. B. FuLsoM. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 1st day of January, 1906. [seal.] R. F. Grafa, JVotan/ Tublic. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department March 5, 1906, therefore no certified copy can be made. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November £3, 1906. [Indorsed.] "Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906." Freedman. In the matter of the application of Josie Brown, to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Alikchi, April 18, 1899, for enrollment as Choctaw freedman, and being duly sworn, by Commissioner Needles, testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Josie Brown. Q. How old are you?— A. 37. Q. Were you a slave at the end of the war. — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your master? — A. Henry Folsom. Q. Was he Choctaw or Chickasaw? — A. Choctaw. Q. Where have you lived ever since the war? — A. Right there at Doaksville. Q. Did you belong to Henry Folsom or his wife?— A. His wife I think. Q. Was his wife a Chickasaw? — A. Yes sir. Q. And you belonged to her instead of him? — A. Yes sir. Q. Got any children? — A. Yes sir. (Enrolled Josie Brown and six children as Chickasaw freedmen.) Dbpartment of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Josie Brown given on April 18, 1899, in the matter of her application for enrollment as Choctaw freedman, as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., Nov. SI, 1906. Affidavit of Josie Brown. United States of America, Indian Territory, Central District, ss : Josie Brown first being sworn, on oath states that she is 43 years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at the town of Sawyer in said nation. Affiant further states that she is of Choctaw-Chickasaw and colored blood, her mother having been Sorena Willis, the daughter of Pheba, a half Choctaw slave woman owned by Pitman Colbert, a full-blood Chickasaw by Ihe said Pitman Colbert, and her father having been Joe Freeman, a colored man. Affiant further states that she is the mother of seven chil- dren— Mattie, bv a colored man named Calab Brown, to whom affiant was married ; John 526 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Willis, by a full-blood Choctaw, Jim Willis, who was recognized and enrolled as a Choctaw; Renzo and Lonzo Wilson, by Eddie Wilson, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw citizen; Willie McCoy, by Dave McCoy, who was the son of Eastman McCoy, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw citizen; and Emma Brown, by a colored man. Affiant states that when she was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enrollment, she stated the facts as above set out, but that the Commission stated that they would enroll her and her children as freedmen only. her JosiE X Brown. mark. Witness to mark: E. F. Grafa, G. R. Lucas. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 2d day of January, 1906. [seal.] R. F. Gbafa, Notary Puhlic. Commission expires July 28, 1906. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of an affidavit of Josie Brown of January 2, 1906, which was filed in the matter of the application of Josie Brown for the transfer of her name from the roll of Choctaw freedmen to the roll of citizens by blood of the Choctaw Nation. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November SI, 1906. [Indorsed:] Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906. Freedman. Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, South McAlester, Ind. T., September 4, 1899. KizziE Allen, being sworn, testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Kizzie Allen. Q. Married, are you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your name before marriage? — A. Kizzie Pitchlynn. Q. What was your mother's name? — A. Winnie Pitchlynn. Q. Who did she belong to? — A. Peter Pitchlynn. Q. Was he a Choctaw or a Chickasaw? — A. Choctaw. Q. Your husband is dead? — A. Yes, sir. Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. R. R. Cravens. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Kizzie Allen, given on September 4, 1899, in the matter of her application for enrollment as a Choctaw freedman, as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commisdoner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. Affidavit of Kizzie Fulsom {formerly Allen). United States of America, Indian Territory, Central District, ss : Kizzie Falsom, formerly Kizzie Allen, first being sworn, on oath states that she is 30 years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at the town of Idabel inthe Choctaw Nation. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 527 Aflfiant further states that she is of one-fourth Choctaw blood, one-half white, and one-fourth negro blood, her mother having been Winnie Peachlin, a one-half Choctaw and half negro woman, the daughter of Peter Peachlin, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw; and her father having been John Woolrey, an intermarried white citizen of the Choctaw Nation. Affiant states that for twelve years she was the lawful wife of George Allen, a mixed-breed Choctaw, who was enrolled as a freedman, by whom she has three children— Henderson, Birdie, and Jefferson Allen; that at the pres- ent time she is the lawful wife of Thomas Fulsom, by whom she has no children. Affi- ant states that when she was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enrollment she stated the facts as above set out, but notwithstanding such facts she was enrolled as a freedman. KizziB Fulsom. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 1st day of January, 1906. [seal.] R. F. Gkafa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department March 5, 1906, therefore no certified copy can be made, Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November S3, 1906. [Indorsed:] Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906. Freedmun. Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Caddo, Ind. T., August n, 1899. _ In the matter of the application of Zack Dunford, said Dunford being sworn by Com- missioner Needles and examined by him et al. testified: I am about 51 years old. I belonged to Robert Jones. I have been living here all my life and nowhere else. My first wife was a Chickasaw and belonged to old man Carr, a Choctaw. Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. B. McDonald. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Zack Dunford, given on August 22, 1899, in the matter of his application for enrollment as a Choctaw freed- man, as the same appears from the record in this case. MvsKOGEE, li^D. T., November SI, 1906. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Affidavit of Zack Dunford. United States op America, Central District, Indian Territory: Zack Dunford, first being duly sworn, on oath states that he is 61 years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at the townof Jackson, insaid Nation. Affiant further states that he is the lawful husband of Catherine, who was the daughter of Jim Har- kins, a recognized Choctaw of one-half Choctaw and one-half white blood. He further states that his said wife was first married to Isaac Matubby, a half-breed Choctaw and negro slave man, who has been dead about twenty-five years; that his said wife by the said Matubby is the mother of three children, as follows: Minnie, who married Tommie Carr and who is the mother of Tommie and Ella Carr and who lives at Bos- well, Ind. T.; Emma, who married Robert Hodgkins and who lives at Coalgate, Ind. T.; Jesse Matubby, who lives at Gbodland and who is the father of Maggie and William. He further states that by his said wife he is the father of three children, as follows: Rena Dunford, who is the mother of two children, Hattie and Albert Dunford, and who lives with affiant; Vicy, who married Cap Powell and who is the mother of Zack and Ester Powell and who lives at Jackson, Ind. Ter. ; and Elsie, a minor child of 528 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. affiants. Affiant also states that at the time he was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the enrollment of his said children a statement was made of the Choctaw descent of said children, which statement resulted in their enrollment as freedmen of the Choctaw Nation. Zack (his X mark) Ddnfoed. Witness to mark: R. F. Grafa, James Bbasley. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 18th day of January, 1906. [seal.] R. F. Ghapa. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department July 27, 1906, therefore no certified copy can be made. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 25, 1906. [Indorsed:] "Filed with Commissioner March 1, 1906." Freedman: In the matter of the application of Jordan Folsom to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Alikchi, Ind. T. , April 18, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freed- man. Being duly sworn and examined by Commissioner T. B. Needles, he testifies as follows: . Q. What is your name? — A. Jordan Folsom. Q. Where were you born? — A. At Doaksville, Ind. T. Q. Were you a slave? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your master? — A. Henry Folsom. Q. You have been living here ever since you were turned loose? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In the Choctaw Nation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was your master a Choctaw? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How old are you? — A. About 58 or 59. Q- Have you a family? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Your family not here? — A. No, sir; my wife is not here; I have one son here. Q. Is your son of age? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you belong to Henry Folsom or his wife? — A. To her, but I was freed under him. She died some years before the war ended. Q. What was your wife's name? — A. Amelia. Q. Was she a slave? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was she, Choctaw or Chickasaw? — A. Choctaw. (Jordan Folsom enrolled as Chickasaw and Amelia Folsom enrolled as Choctaw.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes. I hereby certify upon my official oath as stenographer to above named Commission that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. [Indorsement:] I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Jordan Folsom given on April 18, 1899, m the matter of the application for his enroll- ment as a Choctaw freedman, as the same appears from the record m this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., Novemder tl, 1906. Affidavit of Jordan Fulsom. United States of America, Indian Territory, Central District. Jordan Fulsom, first being duly sworn, on oath says that he is 60 years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at Fort Towson, in said nation. Affiant further states that he is of one-half Choctaw blood and one-half negro blood, his father having been FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 529 Henry Fulsom, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw citizen, and his mother having been Sylvia, a mixed breed Choctaw and negro slave woman, owned by the said Henry Fulsom; that the said Henry Fulsom at all times acknowledged affiant to be his son. Affiant states that he is the father of four children by his wife, Amelia Fulsom, as follows: Victoria Le Flore, who married Sam Le Flore, a half-breed Choctaw; Johnson Fulsom, Levenia McDaniels, and Jordan Fulsom, jr., who married Josephine McAffield, a half-breed Choctaw woman. Affiant states that when he was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enrollment he stated that his father was Henry Fulsom, a Choctaw, but nevertheless they enrolled him as a freedman. Jordan (his x mark) Fulsom. Witnesses to mark: R. F. Grafa, Joe Battiece. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 30th day of December, 1905. R. F. Grapa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department March 5, 1906; therefore no certified copy can be made. Tams Bixey, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 23, 1906. (Indorsed:) "Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906'." Freedman. In the matter of the application of Charles Alexander to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Gpodland, Ind. T., May 9, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freed- man. Being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles, and examined by him et al., he testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Charles Alexander. Q. How old are you?— A. 37. Q. Were you born a slave? — A. Yes, sir; !Pthink I was. Q. Who was your master? — A. Daniel Miller. Q. What was he, a Choctaw or Chickasaw? — A. Choctaw. Q. Where have you been living ever since you were turned loose? — A. Right here in the nation. Q. Are you married? — A. I have been married. My wife is dead. Q- Have you got any children? — A. Yes, sir; two. (Enrolled Chas. Alexander and two children as Choctaw Freedmen.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a tnie, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that' the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Chas. Alexander, fiven on May 9, 1899, in the matter of his application for enrollment as a Choctaw 'reedman as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. Affidavit of Charlie Alexander. United States op America, Indian Territory, Central District, ss: Charley Alexander, first being duly sworn, on oath states that he is 43 years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at the town of Hugo, in said nation. Affiant further states that he is of one-half Choctaw blood, his father havmg been Joe Alexander, or Joe Pis-a-chabbee, a full blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw Indian, and his mother having been Phadelia Thornton, a colored woman. That his father. 530 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Joe Alexander, at all times acknowledged to affiant that he was his father. Affiant states that when he was before the CommiBsion to the Five Civilized Tribes he stated the facts as above set out, but that the Commission enrolled him as a Choctaw Freed- man. Charley Alexander. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 2d day of January, 1906. [seal.] R- F. Grafa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department March 19, 1906; therefore no certified copy can be made. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Inc. T., November SS, 1906. Freedman. In the matter of the application of Cretia Shoales to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Alikchi, Ind. T., April 25, 1899, for enrollment as a Chickasaw freedman. Being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles and examined by him et al., she testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — ^A. Cretia Shoales. Q. How old are you? — A. Forty-seven. Q. Who is your husband? — A. Mitchell Shoales. Q. Where do you live? — A. Shawneetown. Q. Have you always lived in the nation? — A. Yes, sir; I was bred and born in the nation. Q. What is your mother's name? — A. Membry Jones. Q. Was she a slave of the Jones family? — A. Yes, sir; Susan Jones, a Chickasaw. Q. Is your husband alive? — A. No, sir; he is dead. Q. Have you got any children at home unmarried? — A. No, sir. (Enrolled Cretia Shoales as Chickasaw freedman.) Department op the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Cretia Shoales given on April 25, 1899, in the matter of her application for enrollment as a Chickasaw freedman, as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. Affidavit of Cretia Shoales. United States of America, Indian Territory, OerUral District. Cretia Shoales, first being duly sworn, on oath states that she is a citizen of the Choctaw Nation and lives at Shawneetown in said nation. Affiant further states that she is of one-half Choctaw blood at the least, and of part negro blood, her father having been Robert Jones, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw citizen, who has now been dead for the past thirty-five years, and her mother having been Membra, a mulatto slave woman owned by the said Robert Jones, who was of one-half Choctaw blood. Affiant states that her father, the said Robert Jones, at all times recognized her as his daughter and acknowledged that fact to all persons. Affiant states that she was ■first married to Nathan Williams, by whom she had one child named Oliver Williams, who had one child by his wife Julia, who is enrolled as Olie Williams; that Oliver WUliams is now dead and his wife is now living at Talahina, Ind. T. ; that for thirty years after the death of her first husband she was the lawful wife of Mitchell Shoales, by whom she had one daughter, Tena, who is the wife of George Woods. Affiant states that at FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 531 the time she appeared before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enroll- ment she stated that her father was Robert Jones, a Choctaw, and asked to be enrolled as a Choctaw, but the Commission in charge laughed at her and told her she could be enrolled only as a freedman. Ceetia (her x mark) Shoales. Witness to mark: R. F. Grafa. T. H. B. ,FuL80M. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 1st day of January, 1906. R. F. Geafa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. [Indorsed.] "Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906." Original forwarded Department March 5, 1906, therefore no certified copy can be made. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 2S, 1906. Freedman. In the matter of the application of Andrew McAfee to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes at Alikchi, Ind. T., April 25, 1899, for enrollment as a Chickasaw freedman. Being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles and examined by him et al., he testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — ^A. Andrew McAfee. Q. How old are you? — A. About forty-three. Q. Who did you belong to? — A. Susan Jones. Q. Was she a Choctaw or Chickasaw? — A. Chickasaw. Q. Are you married? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you marry a State woman? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you^ lived in the Choctaw. Nation all your life? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Never was sold before the war? — A. No, sir. Q. Have you any children? — A. Yes, sir; two. One is married and I have a young baby. Q. Anybody here know your baby? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the baby's name? — A. Terry. Charley Perkins, being duly sworn by Commissioner, testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Charley Perkins. How old are you? — A. 41. You live here in the nation, do you? — A. Yes, sir. Do you know Andrew McAfee? — A. Yes, sir. Has he got a baby? — A. Yes, sir. Is it a boy or a girl? — A. Girl. Do you know whether he was married to his wife or not? — A. The preacher told me he married them. (Enrolled Andrew McAfee and one child as Chickasaw freedmen.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the aboVe and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Andrew McAfee, given on April 25, 1899, in the matter of his application for enrollment as Chickasaw freedman, as the same appears from the record m this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. 532 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Affidavit of Andrew McAfee: United States of America, Indian Territory, Southern District; Andrew McAfee, first being duly sworn, on oath states that he is 49 years old and lives at the town of Idabel, in the nation and Territory aforesaid. Affiant further states that he is one-half Choctaw blood and one-half negro blood, his father having been Amos McAfee, a full-blood, recognized, and enrolled Choctaw, and his mother being Mima McKeys, a negro woman living at Fort Towson, in the Chotaw, Nation. Affiant states that when he was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for enroll- ment he states that he was a half-breed Coctaw and stated who his father was, but the Commission refused to enroll him as a Choctaw by blood, but enrolled him as a freed- man. Andrew (his x mark) McAfee. Witness to mark: R. F. Grafa. T. H. B. FuLSOM. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 1st day of January, 1906. [seal.] R. F. Grafa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department March 5, 1906, therefore no certified can be made. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 23, 1906. [Indorsed:] Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906. Freedman. In the matter of the application of Peggy Fields to the Commission to the Five Civ- ilized Tribes, 'at Alikchi, Ind. T., April 18, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freedman. Being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles and examined by him et al., she testified as follows : Q. What is your name? — A. Peggy Fields. Q. How old are you? — A. About 40. Q. Were you a slave? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your master? — A. Bert Wilson. I was not owned by him. Mary Wil- son was my owner. He was her father. Q. What was Mary Wilson? — A. A Choctaw. Q. Where did she live? — A. In Red River County. Q. Have you been living there ever since the war? — A. Yes, sir; I never have lived over 12 miles from where I was born and raised. (Enrolled Peggy Fields and three children as Choctaw freedmen.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes.- I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Peggy Fields given on April 18, 1899, in the matter of her application for enrollment as a Choctaw freedman, as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. Affidavit of Peggy Fields. i United States of America, Indian Territory, Central District: Peggie Fields, first being duly sworn, on oath states that she is 48 years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at the town of Harris, in said nation. She further states that she is the daughter of Mollie Butler, who is a daughter of Ellis, a full-blood FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 533 recognized Choctaw citizen, who was a brother of William Ellis, both of whom were rec- ognized citizens. That she is the lawful wife of Lewis Fields, by whom she is the mother of four children, Mollie, who married Andrew Moss; Lulu, Arthur, and John Fields. Affiant further states that when she was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes she stated that she was of Choctaw descent, but the Commission enrolled her as a freedman. She states that she has one sister, who is Fannie Fields. Peggie (her x mark) Fields. Witness to mark: R. F. Grafa. T. H. B. FuLSOM. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 15th day of January, 1906. [seal.] R. F. Grafa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department June 19, 1906, therefore no certified copy can be made. Muskogee, Ind. T., November iS, 1906. [Indorsed:] Filed with Commissioner March 1, 1906. Tams Bixby, Commissw-ner. Freedman. In the matter of the application of Redella Gideon to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, at Alikchi, Ind. T., April 18, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freed- man, and being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles, upon examination testified as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Redella Gideon. Q. How old are you? — A. Thirty-nine. Q. You were a slave, were you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your master? — A. Peter Pitchlynn. Q. What was he? — A. A Choctaw. Q. Have you been living here in the Choctaw Nation all the time? — A. No, sir; I have been living in the States, but have lived in the Territory about five or six years. Q. How long did you live in the States? — A. About eight years. Q. You are living in the Territory now, are you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any children? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is your husband a State man? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many children have you? — A. Six. (Redella Gideon and six children enrolled as Choctaw freedmen.) Department ot the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A. Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Redella Gideon, given on April 18, 1899, in the matter of her application for enrollment as Choctaw freedman, as the same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. Affidavit of Redella Giddens. United States op America, Indian Territory, Central District: Redella Giddens, first being duly sworn, on oath states that she is forty-six years old, a citizen of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at Harris, in said nation. Affiant further states that she is of one-half Choctaw blood and one-half negro blood, her father being Calvin Howell, a full-blood recognized and enrolled Choctaw citizen who now lives at Aeagletown, and her mother having been Myria Butler, a slave woman owned by Peter Peachlin. That for thirty years she.has been the lawful wife of Gains Gidden, who is 534 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. now dead, by whom she had the following children: Leanna Woods, Tennessee Edwards, formerly and enrolled as Tennessee Butler, her first husband having beeii Willie Butler, a quarter blood Choctaw, by whom she had three children, Conda Lee, Percy, and Redella May Butler, Alberta Parker, who married Wheeler Parker, a mixed breed man, Printice, Lola Bell, Fancy, James Ashley Curley, and Tillman Giddens. Affiant states that when she was before the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes she stated that her father was Calvin HoweU, but that the Commission enrolled her as a freedman. Redella (her x inark) Giddens. Witness to mark: R. F. Gkafa, T. H. B. FuLsoM. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 1st day of January, 1906. R. F. Grafa, Notary Public. Commission expires July 28, 1908. Original forwarded Department March 19, 1906, therefore no certified copy can be made. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muskogee, Ind. T., November ^S, 1906. [Indorsed:] "Filed with Commissioner January 13, 1906." Freedman. In the matter of the application of Sam Wright to the Commission to the Five Civil- ized Tribes at Alikchi, Ind. T., April 21, 1899, for enrollment as a Choctaw freedman, and being duly sworn by Commissioner Needles, and examined by him et al., he testi- fied as follows: Q. What is your name? — A. Sam Wright. Q. How old are you? — A. About 34. Q. Are you married? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your wife's name? — A. Effie Wright. Q. H«w old is she? — A. Twenty-five. Q. Were you born a slave? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was your master? — A. Colonel Jones. Q. What was your mother's name? — A. Abigail Stephens. Q. Did she belong to Colonel Jones? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is your wife a State woman? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you got any children? — A. Yes, sir; one. Willie Wright. Q. Did your mother belong to Jones or his wife? — A. I can't tell. Lin Colbert, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Q. Which side of the Jones house did Abigail Stephens belong? — A. She belonged to the Chickasaw side — to Susan Jones. (Enrolled Sam Wright and one child as Chickasaw freedmen.) Department of the Interior, Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, I hereby certify, upon my official oath as stenographer to above-named Commission, that this transcript is a true, full, and correct translation of my stenographic notes. W. A, Smiley. I, Tams Bixby, Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of the testimony of Sam Wright given on April 21, 1899, in the matter of his application for enrollment as Choctaw freedman, as the .same appears from the record in this case. Tams Bixby, Commissioner, Muskogee, Ind. T., November 21, 1906. Affidavit of Sam Wright. United States of America, Indian Territory, Central District : Sam Wright, first being duly sworn, on oath states that he is 38 years old, a resident of the Choctaw Nation, and lives at the town of Idabel in said nation. Affiant further states that he is the son of Wright Colbert, who was .the son of July Colbert, who was the Jcs and that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of a copy of the report of the special master in' chancery in the matter of the application of Eliza Mayberry et al. for admission to citizenship in the Cherokee Nation by the United States court for the northern dis- trict of Indian Territory on appeal from the decision of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Cherokee court case No. 78, said copy being in the possession of this office. Tams Bixby, Commissioner. Muscogee, Ind. T., August 16, 1906. IjNrrED States of Aiierica, Indian Territory, Northern District, ss: I, W. P. Johnston, notary public for the district and Territory aforesaid, hereby cer- tify that the within and foregoing copy of a copy of a copy of the report of the master in chancery in case 78, Eliza Mayberry et al. v. The Cherokee Nation, is true and correct. Witness my hand and seal as such notary public on this 24th day of August, A. D. 1906. [seal.] W. p. Johnston, Notary Public. My commission expires May 16, 1908. [Supplemental statement of Mrs. Lockwood, submitted in writing.] Since the filing of motions to reopen and to rehear the claims of these Cherokees to citizenship named, from 3,000 to 4,000 filings of intermarried white persons have been thrown back on the market or to the credit of the Cherokees for distribution, because the United States Supreme Court, in October last, decided against them and rejected their claims to citizenship and allotment in all cases where the marriage had been sol- emnized after November 1, 1875, reaffirming the decision of the Court of Claims of May 18, 1905, and maintaining a law of the Cherokee Nation. There is no reason now why this land or its equivalent may not be distributed to persons of bona fide Cherokee blood whose applications for citizenship are filed with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, and have been for years past, instead of to white persons who have married Indians. Respectfully submitted to the special committee on Cherokee and other tribal affairs in the Indian Territory. Belva a. Lockwood, Attorney for Applicants. STATEMENT OF DANA H. KELSEY, AGENT, MUSKOGEE, IND. T. By Senator Long: Q. What is your business? — -A. United States Indian agent for the Union Agency here at Muskogee in the Indian Territory. Q. And your post-office address is here at Muskogee? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. One desire of the committee is, to get information from you in regard to the detail work of your office — that is, in regard to the modus operandi by which matters of ahenation and lease matters pass through your office, and from that on to the final finding by the Sec- retary of the Interior. By Senator Teller : Q. Gonceming oil, more particularly, and mineral leases and alien- ation. — A. Yes, sir; I understand. By the Chairman : Q. You may proceed with your statement along that line. I wish, for instance, Mr. Kelsey, that you would start with one case, and tak- ing it down through its history give us the modus operandi from the 562 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. time that an application for an oil lease is first fUed in your office until it is finally approved by the Secretary of the Interior. — A. The rules of the Department rec^uire that when an oil lease is taken by an oil company from an individual Indian, the rules require that it be filed in the office of the Indian agent within thirty days from its date. This rule was made in 1904, and its object or purpose was to prevent oil companies from acquiring a large number of leases and withholding them from action or record, which, at that time, it was understood, they were doing, and, as explained by the inspector last night, nearly 2,000 or 3,000 leases were filed in a few days as a consequence of that order. Now at the present time leases are filed within thirty days of the time they are executed, or thirty days from date, which practi- cally means the same thing. Just as soon as these leases reach my office their receipt is acknowledged and a communication is addressed to the Commissioner for the Five Civilized Tribes to ask if that par- ticular Indian has received an allotment such as described in the lease, and if the allotment is free from obligations, and also if the Indian is properly enrolled. All this information is first sought from the Com- missioner's office. It takes but a short time to get all that informa- tion and data from the Commissioner's office. When that data is received, the lease is checked with it and the descriptions of the prop- erty and details are compared, and the lease is examined carefully to see if it is properly prepared and the papers accompanying it are prop- erly prepared. All this is carefully done to see that everything is straight and proper and complies with the rules and regulations. Q. What papers are required to accompany it? — A. Well, in a rough way, I would say the application of the lessee — a form of the Department — the present form has been changed two or three times — but the form exactly as it is now is printed in the regulation which I have here (filed with committee), the certificate to the Five Civil- ized Tribes from the Commissioner, which we receive hj mail; the affidavit of the lessee explaining what bonus transaction, if any, he has had v/ith the individual Indian — in other words, I mean by that that the lessee can not obtain a lease from an Indian without paying a bonus for the lease in addition to the prescribed royalties, for the oil companies are out after these leases — there is competition among them for them — and so they offer the Indians a bonus for the lease, and the company that paj^s the largest bonus usually gets it. The bonuses for these leases run as high as from $10 to $17,000 for a single lease alone, without the approval of the Department. That affidavit is required for the purpose of obviating or settling contro- versies that might arise between the company and the Indian, that the company had not paid to the Indian the amount of the bonus they had agreed to pay at the time they acquired the lease. By Senator Teller: Q. Did you say that they had to pay it? — A. No, sir; that they had paid it. It is a matter of bonus wluch the operator pays to the Indian for the oil lease, and it is simply a gift to the Indian for the lease — a bonus, rather, which the operator securing the lease pays to the Indian. 'It is something between the operator and the Indian and which the Government does not attempt to supervise, and the only parpose in requiring that affidavit is so that there may be no controversy afterwards between the company and the Indian as to whether or not that bonus has been paid according to agreement. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 563 Q. Suppose that the Indian complained that they had not com- plied witn the contract ; do you in that case make them pay up ?— A. Yes, sir; they are required to comply with their contract with the individual Indian in every respect, although, as I say, it is a side contract between them and has nothing to do with the lease proper. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. What did you say was the maximum bonus paid? — A. I think it was $17,000 for 160 acres in the Glenn oil pool. It was a verj'' favorable lease. By the Chairman: Q. Proceed. — A. If the oil company is a corporation such corpo- ration is reqaired to show — to furnish copies of its articles of associa- tion and certificate of incorporation showing that it is authorized to transact business in the Indian Territorj'', and a statement of its stockholders or who composes the company — that is, showing each individual stockholder and the number of shares held by each, and a statement as to their financial responsibility. If the lease covers the allotment of a minor or part thereof, a certified copy of the letters of guardianship must be furnished, together with the order of the court showing that the guardian had authority to enter into the lease. When all these papers are received the lease is then ready for transmission to the Department. The original lease is then forwarded with the papers to the Department, but without the bond. It is not necessary to for- ward the bond, for after the lease is approved by the Department the lessee has sixty da3's from that time in which to prepare a bond. Kecently, when a representative of the Department was here, I sug- fested to him that it would save time and trouble in corresponding etween there and Washington if the bond was filed with the lease, and thev made a favorable report to the Department. They evidently made a favorable report on that proposition, for the daj^ before yester- day I received a wire from the Department instructing me hereafter to call for the bond when the lease is filed so that the whole thing and all the papers can be forwarded to Washington at the same time for action. By Senator Long:' Q. I would like to know now you and the inspector transact this business. — ^A. How we transact it ? Q. Yes, sir; who initiates it — who starts it? — ^A. Well, the natural and ordinary course of procedure in all these cases excepting one arc for the Indian agent to start it. In other words, I mean that the details are handled by the Indian agent's office. ' That is where the work is done; but the inspector here has supervisory powers over the superintendent of schools and the Indian agent and also some others. Q. Has he an office? — A. Oh, yes; each has a separate office and a separate office force; but I, being a disbursing officer, pay his office force. The removal of restrictions is made through the Indian agent's office, and there are other things also that are done of minor import- ance. The report to the Department is prepared by the Indian agent . The report itself is prepared and forwarded by the Indian agent. Of course, it passes through the inspector's hands, but he only puts his indorsement on the report itself, whether it meets his sanction or not. He approves or disapproves in the report itself, unless it be a question 564 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. on which he disagrees with what is stated in the report on that subject, and in that case he writes to the Department itself. He reports to the Secretary of the Interior, and my reports are made to the Commis- sioner of Indian Aifairs. The inspector is the agent of the Secretary of the Interior, and he represents him on the ground. By the Chairman : Q. Before you pass these matters over to the Secretary of the Inte- rior, you indorse on them your disapproval or approval ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you do that? — A. I make a specific statement as to whether they should be approved or disapproved. Now, when the lease is completed, I make a report on it, and I set out in that report the names of the lessee and the lessor and the acreage that has hereto- fore been approved or not to that company or to that particular lessee, it being the policy of the Department not to allow any corporation or individual to acquire leases to more than 4,800 acres of oil land. For example, you take a corporation, as a corporation, that is interested in eleven hundred acres, and say that some of its individual stock- holders are interested in so many more acres, and if an individual that belongs to a company that has an interest in, say, a thousand acres of oil lands, he can only be a member of a company or a stockholder in a company or companies that have leases up to 3,800 more acres, for the combined interests of these corporations would be 4,800 acres, which is the limit, the object being that no individual, whether in a corporate capacity or as an individual, can be interested in more than 4,800 acres of land. Q. Suppose that a corporation applies for 4,800 acres of leases, and it is found upon an examination that one of the stockholders of the com- pany had 160 acres under lease theretofore — what would be the effect of that on that corporation? — A. Under the rulings of the Secretary, either the corporation or the individual would have to reduce its acreage, because no individual is allowed to be interested either per- sonally or as a stockholder of a company that holds more than 4,800 acres — that is, where the combined holdings equal or exceed 4,800 acres. Q. But this individual would only be interested in the 160 acres of his original lease, and perhaps as a stockholder in the one-thousandth part of the other. What would be the effect then? — A. It makes no difference. Q. It makes no difference? — A. No, sir; none whatever. That is the position the Secretary has taken, and that is the instruction I have received. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Are the stockholders and the number of shares held by each all filed in your office ? — ^A. Our regulations call for it. Q. Do the regulations and rules of the Department require that they should furnish that ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is, should be filed with you? — ^A. Yes, sir; I don't require any thing that the regulations don't call for, I don't call for anything that the regulations don't require, from people who wish to operate a lease. By Senator Long : Q. Now one other question when we are on this subject; what do you require in the way of a deposit of money, or a financial showing as FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 565 authority for operating a lease, if the appHca'tion for the lease is granted? — A. Prior to June 8, 1905, the regulation was for a mineral or oil lease. It first started in connection with a coal lease, and the regulation was that the operator should have at least $5,000 for a lease of 160 acres of land. There was considerable objection and protest on account of that ruling on behalf of the operators, who objected to it and kicked against it on the ground that it did not require that much ; for they said that it was too rigid and inflexible, and required the same showing in the case of every lease without any distinction; while in some cases it did not require anything like that sum to operate the lease, in other cases it was not sufficient, and might require a great deal more. And they contendied that it did not require a cash showing anyway, and was not the proper thing to do in any event ; therefore, the Department feeling these objections to be well fo.unded, at that time changed the regulation as will be seen in the printed copy which I have here — provided that a showing should be made as to the responsibility of the lessee and what cash he had available, but not pinning them down to anj" specific amount. Q. When was that change made? — ^A. June 8, 1905, as shown in the printed regulations. Q. Where is that regulation? — A. Here it is. I will read it. It is on page 10 of this regulation. It is as follows: In order that the Department may have definite information before it concerning the lessees in oil and gas leases covering lands in the Cherokee ^nd Creek nations, it is required that corporation lessees furnish affidavits covering the following points: (1) State the total number of shares of the capital stock actually issued and specifically the amount of cash paid into the treasury on each share sold, or if paid in property, state kind and value of same paid per share. (2) Of the stock sold how much per share remains unpaid and subject to assessment? (3) How much cash has the company in its treasury and elsewhere, and from what sources was it received? Certificates by officers of the banks should be furnished showing the amount deposited therein to the credit and subject to the check of the company. (4) What property, exclusive of cash, is owned by the company, and its value? (5) What is the total indebtedness of the com- pany, and specifically the nature of its obligations? (6) State what experience the officers of the company, or others connected with it or employed by it, have had in the production of petroleum and gas, or in any other business. Affidavits should also be furnished by individual lessees showing their financial responsibility, the amount of cash on hand ayailable for mining operations, and their experience in the oil and gas business or other business. They should also submit affi- davits by bank officers showing the amounts deposited to their credit. The required information shall be furnished within fifteen days from the date of the letter of the Indian agent at Union Agency requesting it. These amendments shall be applicable to all leases heretofore approved, as well as those that may be hereafter approved. That is the rule. Right here I would like to correct the state- ment the inspector made last night, when I was present, to the effect that a certain amount is requned. There has never been a case that I recall now where a company was called on to furnish an affidavit where it said that it had no money. They have always showed that they had at least some money, and probably mining tools or experience, which undoubtedly was satisfactory, and if they made a satisfactory showing in other respects that they were able to operate the lease and it was approved. I don't think it would be feasible to fix any amount as the maximum amount in any particular case. I think that each case has to be judged by itself, and that an individual or a company don't need as much capital in cash actually on hand where they have a string of tools and men with large experience in the busi- ness at their head, for that in many instances is an asset that is far ODD FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. more valuable than money in the bank. Another thing that is taken into consideration, or ought to be — and I say it now — is the character of the field that the lease is for. We have what are known as deep fields and shallow fields. Now it is apparent that in a shallow field it will not take anything like as much to drill and equip a well as it will in a deep field. The deeper a well is the more it costs, and it costs more to drill it deep in the ground than it does nearer the sur-^ face, and it costs more to case it, etc. Q. What would be the amount that they should have for consider-^ ation before the applicant for a lease would receive consideration? — A. Well you see by the regulations that I have read that that is a matter that would depend on other, circumstances. It would be entirely owing to the general showing of the lessee. Q. What would be or what has been the least amount of a showing of money upon which you have approved a lease? — A. I think probably the least amount might be a thousand or two thou- sand dollars, and that would be in a case where a man might have a valuable string of tools. Q. That would be where they had tools? — A. Yes, sir, where they had their mining tools. I recall one lessee who said that he had nine strings of tools and he had seven leases that he had applied for and with all these leases he only had $3,000 in cash and his leases were approved, for he was a man of experience and that was, after all, the most valuable asset he had. Q. What do you say about this general impression that prevails to the effect that you require a fixed sum to be deposited in the bank? — A. Because there is a provision in the regulations as I have read them that requires the bank officers to furnish an affidavit as to the amount of money that is in the bank or it is in the form of a cer- tificate from some responsible officer of the bank showing how much money the lessee has on hand in the institution. The old regulations in effect prior to June 8, 1905, required at least a specific and fixed amount, under the regulations put in effect on June 8, while a showing has to be made, no specific amount is required, and the department takes into consideration the standing of the lessee, his experience, and what other property he or it has, etc. I suppose it is this old requirement and the fact that a showing has stiU to be made as to the amo'lint of cash in bank that makes people think that it requires a specific sum. That impression is an error and I don't believe it prevails to any very large extent. Q. That is a form that is required to be gone through with? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Supposing a person did not know what it was? — A. You would have to strike out the clause. Q. Would you approve the application then? — A. I would. not unless he had something that was its equivalent with which to operate it. Q. Suppose he had tools? — A. As I said a minute ago if he had tools and experience and ability and some cash he certainly could operate it. Q. Then, you do approve leases where there has been no showing of money of any kind or in any amount? — ^A. No, sir. Q. I understood you to just say you did? — A. No, sir; there is no FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 567 case where there is not some money. They have always been able to make a showing of some money. Q. Oh, they always have some money? — ^A. Certainly. No lease will be approved, no matter what the other showing is, unless the lessee has money enough at least to satisfy the Department that he can drill a well. Q. How much is the least showing of money that you recall where the lease was approved? — A. The least showing or money that I recall where the lease was approved is the case of the man who had the seven leases, nine strings of tools, and only $3,000 in cash on deposit. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Is that pamphlet you handed in the regulations? — A. It is the regulations in force to-day, with the exception of the change that came day before yesterday by wire, of which I informed you. Q. Does that contain the blank form for a bond for an applica- tion? — A. Yes, sir; the application and the bank officers' certificate. By the Chairman : Q. The form of lease now, as I understand it, contains a stipula- tion whereby the lessee agrees to become subject to any future change in the regulations which the Secretary may hereafter make, and pro- vides for a cancellation of any lease upon ten days' notice, and waives the right to test the question in the courts? — A. I think that state- ment is correct. I think that regulation was prescribed on May 22, 1906. Q. There are no instances where any of these conditions are allowed to be waived under the present practice? — A. No, sir; not that I recall. My present instructions are to call for that form of lease Und that form of application in every instance. Q. And you follow these instructions ? — A. I do. Q. Strictly? — ^A. To the letter. All of those have been furnished ia every case. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Have you ever made any investigation in your office to deter- mine whether there was any combination or community of interest among the lessees of this oil field. — A. No, sir; not so far as my ofiice is concerned. Some time last spring it was currently reported that a number of interests had joined; it was only a matter of rumor, however, but the rumor came in, and it was reported to the Depart- ment, and the inspector was ordered to make an investigation and report on it, and he went from Washington to Pittsburg and other places, and made his investigation and made his report. Q; Do you know — do you happen to know whether that was reported to the Secretary of the Interior ? — A. Yes, sir ; and I under- stood it had been printed. Q. And made public? — A. Yes, sir. Copies of it, I think, were dis- tributed, but I am not certain. Q. Well, for my information, do ;^ou know what that report showed? — A. That report, I believe, showed that there were some combinations. In other words, I can explain it this way: Where a company took 4,800 acres of leases, and each one of its stockholders 568 rivE CIVILIZED tribes. took 4,800 acres of leases, and when the stockholders were interro- fated as to whether they owned these leases they said no, that they elonged to their company. Q. Have you read that report ? — A. No, sir. Q. You have not seen it? — A. No, sir; not to read it. Q. Have you a copy of it? — ^A. No, sir. By Senator Long: Q. Mr. Wright can give information about that? — A. I presume so. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. I understand these stockholders under the regulations would not be entitled to a lease? — A. No, sir; and I will say that the investi- gation — that investigation — was what called up or caused this new regulation in that behalf to be made, for the Secretary evidently thought that there should be a stringent rule made in reference to that. That company abandoned the leases they cared less about, and the stockholders reduced their total acreage down to 4,800 acres. By Senator Long : Q. I wish you would explain the regulations as far as drilling operations are concerned? — A. Well, at this same time, the time of this investigation, it was ascertained that certain parties had obtained in addition to their quota of leases a large number of drilling contracts. Q. How is that ? — A. I say at this time it was ascertained that cer- tain parties, in addition to the full quota of leases that they could obtain, had obtained a large number of drilling contracts. Q. What is a drilling contract? — A. It is a case where, say, one company has a lease and then it makes a contract with another com- pany to drill its lease for a certain stipulated per cent of the oil. In other words, they would — the company doing the oil — give the lessee from whom they leased say 10 per cent and the other original lessor 10 per cent, or if the original royalty was 10 per cent they would pay that and then take 90 per cent of what remained for the drilling, so that gave the company doing the drilling the lion's share of the pro- ceeds and gave them a live interest in the lease. Q. The company that did the drilling would get that 90 per cent? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What would they do for that? — A. The drilling company would drill the well and pay all the expenses of the drilling, and if they got oil they would pay the expense for getting the oil. In other words, they would assume the lease practically, for that was the effect of it, and do all the work and assume all the expenses, and the party, whether an individual or company, who got the lease in the first instance, would be under no further expense at all, but they would get their 10 per cent of the oil produced, or whatever percentage might be agreed on. That is something that is prohibited by the regulations. By the Chairman: Q. Suppose I have 160 acres of an oil lease, and suppose Senator Long is operating his full quota of 4,800 acres of oil leases right next to my lease, and he has all the facilities for operation and I have none; am i prohibited from entering into a contract with Senator Long for drilling on my land — that is, under the terms of a contract by which he FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 569 is to receive a certain proportion of the oil extracted from my lease? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That can not be done ? — A. No, sir. Q. That kind of a contract is prohibited? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. Suppose I have not 4,800 acres; suppose that I only have 2,000 acres, can I make such a contract with him? — A. Under the regulations I would think not. By the Chairman: Q. I understand that you can acquire an interest in land up to 4,800 acres. — A. Yes, sir. But the drilling contract business is pro- hibited on the theory that the acreage would be increased in that way without the knowledge of the Department — that it is a practical evasion of the regulations, for if it is permitted there would be no way by which the Department could tell whether you had less or more than the maximum amount of land leased, and such contracts are not valid unless approved by the Secretary. Q. Well, have not these contracts been submitted for some time? — A. Yes, sir. „ Q. And the Secretary's position is that these contracts are all void unless he approves them? — A. Yes, sir. They have not been sub- mitted, though, until this subsequent regulation. Q. What is that regulation? Read it, please. — A. This regulation is on page 32, Form B, and is as follows, omitting caption and pre- limmary parts — omitting these parts and beginning with the follow- ing: * * * not for speculation or transfer, or as the agent for or in the interest or for the benefit of any other person, corporation, or association, and that no other person, corporation, or association has any interest, present or prospective, directly or indi- rectly, therein, and that there is no understanding or agreement, expressed or implied, by which the land leased, or any interest in or under the lease, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, is to be used, sublet, assigned, or transferred without the consent of the Secretary gf the Interior first obtained to any person, corporation, or association, but that it is taken for the purpose of operation and development under direction, supervision, and control. That this application is made with full knowledge of the fact that under the regu- lations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior governing the leasing of lands in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, lessees are prohibited from being directly or indirectly interested in leases in their own names, or in the names of other persons, or as owners or holders of stock in corporations, or as members of associations covering an aggregate of more than 4,800 acres of land in the Cherokee and Creek nations, and that the Secretary of the Interior reserves the right to cancel leases at any time dur- ing the period for which they are to run, after notice as herein inentioned, when he is satisfied that the terms of the lease or of the regulations heretofore or hereafter pre- scribed have been violated in any particular, and further agree not to transfer, assign, or sublet, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or allow the use of the land leased, or any oil or gas in or under it, without first obtaining the consent of the Secretary of the Interior respecting oil and gas leases in the Cherokee Nation, shall render this lease subject to cancellation after ten days from receipt by of notirf, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, whose declaration of cancel- lation shall be effective without resorting to the court, and without further proceed- ings, and that the lessor shall then be entitled to immediate possession of the land. That, I believe, covers it. (5. That is all right, but I do not see how you gather from any- thing that is in there that a drilling contract would not be possible and proper in the case that I have instanced with Senator Long, where he has only 2,000 acres of land. I do not see anything in there S. Rep. 501 ;^. ."0--J. pi; 1 :!T 570 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. that says such a contract would not be approved. — A. I did not say- it would not be approved. Q. That is what I understood you to say, and I am glad to be correctedj for that is the impression that I had. — A. Well, you misunderstood me. I said it would not be effective unless approved. Such contracts may be approved and are approved. By Senator Long: Q. The facts are that under the regulations we can not enter into such a contract without the approval of the Secretary? — A. No, sir; the contract has to be first submitted to the Department, so that we would know how much land you were drilling. That is the only purpose of that regulation. By the Chairman: Q. Then if Senator Long was already drilling 4,800 acres, or had that much land under lease, it would not be approved? — A. No, sir; it would not be approved. Q. If he only had the 2,000 acres, would it be approved, or would there be anything to prevent the approval ? — A. I should think not. I can't think of anything that would prevent its approval if the acreage was not exceeded. By Senator Long: Q. The ruling of the Department is that such a drilling contract is in effect a transfer of the lease ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that transfer must have the approval of the Secretary of the Interior before it can be legally made? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is the only purpose for that provision or restriction? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. There are two objections to it — one is that it is a practical trans- fer of the lease? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the other is that if it is permitted it opens the door to the speculator? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Are there any restrictions on the operations of these drilling companies, or are they allowed to go ahead and extend their drilling operations all over the oil district? — A. Do you mean by taking drilling contracts? Q. Yes, sir. Now the lessees are restricted to not more than 4,800 acres each — that is, they can take leases which in the aggregate do iiot exceed 4,800 acres to each individual or company? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Can the men who are drilling go around and take contracts from whomsoever and wherever they can get them without restrictions as to the number they have or how much land they cover ? — A. No, sir; none whatever so long as they contract to drill wells for a certain specified figure and have no interest in the production. Q. Might there not be room for a monopoly in the operations of these drilling companies ? — A. Well, there might be ; but it is not very likely that such would be the case, for the parties that do drilling in that way are usually individuals who own their own drilling rig and take contracts and move their rigs around from place to place and drill wells for so much a foot for each foot drilled. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 571 Q. Are there any regulations of the Interior Department that restrict driUing operations? — A. No, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Suppose I am the executive officer of a drilhng company, and I have organized a company for the purpose of drilling Avells, say, and you have a tract, say, of 2,000 acres, and I make a contract that I will drill it for, say, 30 per cent of the oil it produces, and suppose there is another man who has 2,000 acres and I make a contract with him and drill it in the same way and on the same terms, I suppose my com- pany \\'ould have to cease operations at the time thej^ acquired in this manner an interest in 4,800 acres? — A. If those contracts were approved by the Interior Department, they would approve no more after the limit of 4,800 acres was reached. Q. That would be the limit? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. And no contract can be made by a lessee unless it is first sub- mitted to the Department for approval? — A. No, sir; no contract of that kind. Now, understand that independent of the Department they may make these individual arrangements to drill where the party drilling don't get any interest in the lease or the oil produced by the lease. That is the waj" that nearly all the drilling is done, and the Department don't care about it one way or the other. The lessee goes and hires a driUing outfit just like he would hire any other work- ingman to do work for him. Q. And you have nothing to do with it ? — A. No, sir ; and we never have attempted to interfere with that part of the oil business at all. That is a matter of contract between the lessee and the driller and is their own business ; that is Avhere the contract is for drilling the well for so much or for so much per foot. Bj' Senator Brandegee: Q. Are there any restrictions whatever on the owner of land who has developed his own well or wells about his making any contract he wants to make with the driller for drilling his oil wells or his land? — A. The only restriction imposed by the Department is that it requires that an affidavit be submitted, stating that that drilling IS required to be done and is being done in his own interest exclusively and not for or in the interest of some corporation for the purpose of violating the law. By the Chairman : Q. Of course, then, with this restriction he could not make a con- tract for more than 4,800 acres of land ? — A. No, sir ; now, you under- stand that there is no objection to the Indian operating it himself if he is capable of operating it and he owns the land, there is no par- ticular objection to that, but the idea is to prevent all the Indians from making on the outside, the practical effect of which would be to do away with the regulation. Q. But the Indian could not make a contract with the operator, provided the operator already had the 4,800 acres of land? — A. No, sir; unless the Secretary would see fit to waive it for the benefit of that particular Indian, for the additional acreage would not hurt, and also because it would not give him enough to gain a monopoly. I 572 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. can't say what the Secretary would do, but he might waive tlie regu- lation in that case. By Senator Beandegee: Q. Supposing the owner of land makes his application to drill his own land for oil and to develojD it for himself, he might make a con- tract with a driller to drill the well or wells if he was not going to pay him any percentage of the oil or anything of that kind? — A. Yes, sir. Q. If the contract provided that he was to pay him in money it would be all right? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And there would be no objection to it? — A. No, sir; we have no objection to their doing that. We have no objection in any case excepting where the drilling company or people practically take the lease over under the guise of getting a percentage of the oil for drill- ing, for the Department holds that that amounts practically to the same thing as making him the lessee of the land, and that by the regulations is prohibited unless first submitted to the Secretary for his approval. By the Chairman : Q. I do not suppose that the individual owner of the land or the allottee is required to apply to the Interior De'partment for permis- sion to drill his own land? — A. No, sir; the sole purpose of the re- strictions is to apply to land that is drilled by a company. Q. Suppose the Indian goes on and drills himself, or has it done under a contract for a certain specified price, may he go ahead and do it without reference to the Department? — A. Yes, sir; it is an im- provement, and he can go ahead and do it just like the owner of any piece of property improves it — just like he builds a fence or a house or a barn. It is no one's business hoAV he does it. Q. Then he can go ahead and do it himself just like he would do anything else to improve his land or allotment ? — A. Yes, sir ; I sup- pose so. Now, I say he can, but that is merely my construction of the case you put. I will say this, that we never have had a case of that kind. Q. ^Vho are in the business of purchasing oil in the Territory?— A. Well, I don't know who all are engaged in the business, but the Prairie Oil and Gas Company according to my understanding buys practically all the oil that is produced here. In this connection I might as well state how the royalties are paid. Q. Yes, sir ; go ahead and state how that is done. — A. Well, bafore the operator would run his oil, for his own protection would h^ive it paid over to the office, for they couldn't get any one to take it until that question was determined. Now, as the case of the Indian doing his own development, there has been no such a case as that, but should there be such a case and the Prairie Oil and Gas Company should write to the office that the Indian himself should want to sell that oil, the only thing to do under the regulations Avould be to find out if that Indian was doing it himself or whether some one else was doing it who already had their full quota of 4,800 acres of land, and I would probablj^ write him under the instructions of the Sec- retarj'- to send on an affidavit stating how it was done. That would probably be the course pursued. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 573 By Senator Brandegee : Q. AVill you state what business it is of the Interior Department or any other Department of the Government how or to whom or when the owner sells it ? — A. Only to protect the company that buys it, for they don't want to take oil where there will be any complications. Q. What complications? — A. Where they would take oil from an Indian whei-e the lease is not approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Q. AAliat has that to do with it? I fail to see where an}^ com- plications could arise. — A. Onl}' in the case of an Indian who might desire to sell oil to the Prairie Oil and Gas Company; it must first be shown that that Indian is an allottee and that he has an allot- ment. There is a great many allotments made here in the Cherokee Nation, where the allotment is only tentative and there is a contest filed, and the right of the allottee to the allotment is contested, and the contest may be decided against the allottee. Xow, until the matter of the allotment is finally passed on, and the records show whether they are or not — imtil the question of the allotment is finally settled they will not buy the oil or pay for it, and they must get that information from our office, for the Prairie Oil and Gas Company has no information on the question, and so, for that reason, the Prairie Oil and Gas Company has always required anyone who wanted to run their oil to show them that they have a right to run that oil and the right to the land where it comes from ; and in case that land has been alienated or sold they want to know who it has been sold to, and the people who buy that land in all cases have to show the Prairie Oil and Gas Company that they have bought the land and have the legal right to sell the oil produced from it. The oil company don't take any chances at all. They want to be sure every time that they are right. If a strike is made and application is made to them for a pipe line, they won't even lun their pipe line down to it until they are sure that the man who has the oil is legally the owner of it, and is legally entitled to sell it to them. If they would run their pipe line several miles, go to that expense, they might find that the man that got them to do it did not own the land and could not sell them the oil. Q. Is there any regulation of the Department which compels an allottee where he owns his own land to apply to the Department for permission to develop it, or may he go ahead and develop it? — A. There is only this requirement of the Department, that where allottees want to develop their land themselves or to operate it, then they shall file a notice with the Department that they want to develop it and will develope it and operate it. Q. Is it a regulation of the Department that they shall do that? — ■ A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you explain to me by what possible theory or on what pos- sible theory they can imagine or conceive that it is any possible business of the Department what the man wants to do with his property? It is his property, and I really would like to know for my own information and also for the record what theory can possibly be conceived by which it can even be imagined that it can be any possible concern of the Interior Department? — A. Well, sir, I don't consider that it is any business of the Department any further 574 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. than this: That, the assistant attorney-general of the Department has rendered a decision or opinion, I should say, that in the alienation of lands the Indian has a right to sell his lands, but he has not the right to lease it ■without the approval of the Department. Q. You do not understand me, for that is not an answer to my question ? — A. I think I do, and if you will give me an oppor- tunity I will answer you. Now, then, if an}'- allottee desires to put up any machinery or go ahead and use his own land he can do so. I don't know of any other theory than that the Department has a right to make him, or require him, to make a showing, or rather request of him' that he file something so our records will show what are being operated by himself and not by leases. Now we are required to keep in touch with the situation, and there would be no record to show that that lease had been sold or that that land had been sold or was operated, or anything else about it. Q. Still that is not an answer to my question. I want to know this : If I own a piece of land here in the Territory as an allottee, it is mine, is it not '. — A. Yes, sir. Q. If I want to sink an oil well on it, are the regulations such that the Department can compel me to tell them why I want to sink a well and when, or to whom I am going to sell my oil, or how much money I am going to spend on it or on my own land? — A. I don't know that it would, we have no case like that. f Q. If an allottee concludes that he will develop his own land or allotment and the Department asks him these questions, has he not a perfect right to say to the Department : " It is none of your business. It is my land and I proiDOse to go ahead and develop it in my own waj' "? — A. Well, I expect that would be their privilege. ' Q. You believe that would be the privilege of the owner of the land? — A. Yes, sir; probably so. Q. Then the Department has no legal or moral right to interfere with his purchasing a string of tools and going ahead and developing his own land and selling the product to whom he pleases, has it? — A. I don't know that it would. Q. Do you know that it would not? — A. I don't know anything about that. We don't cross bridges clown here until we get to them — and there are not many to cross in this country. I mean that we don't attempt to solve problems until they are presented, and we never had a case of that kind, so I don't knoAV what the Depart- ment would do. It has troubles enough of its own, I apprehend, without going out of its way to find them. Q. We will suppose that the owner could drill his own well or hire some one else to do it foi' him; then what he would re- quire as a condition precedent to the successful operation of the well would be that he would have to satisfy the Prairie Oil & Gas Company that he was the owner of the land on which the oil was l^roduced and had the right to sell it to them ; and if he would pro- duce satisfactory evidence to them that he is the owner of the land they would take the oil? — A. Yes, sir; if they could. I believe the production now is greater than their capacity or ability to handle it. Q. If these conditions were complied with, and they were in shape to take the oil, they would do so? — A. Probably. Q. There would be no objection to their doing so? — I can't say what objections they might raise. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 575 Q. There would be no objection that yon can think of now, thought — A. No, sir; they would probably take it. They have re- quested to know if parties who wanted to operate the land owned if, Q. That is a pure question of fact I ask you, without legard to the law. — A. Well, I don't know. Q. Has the Department any right to insist upon these things other than as a means of keeping a statistical bureau of these things, where the information may be obtained as to what is being done in the oil business — in other words, has the Department any right to insist upon it if the owner does not desire to furnish it? — A. I don't know. Q. You do not know anything about that? — A. Not a thing. Senator Long. We will suppose that he is an allottee in the Chero- kee nation and has had his restrictions removed under the act of 1904, being a white allottee Or not an allottee of pure Indian blood. Now the Department holds that while such an allottee could sell his land he could not lease it for mineral purijoses; is that right? — A. Yes, sir. Q. "\Miile he could sell his land the Department holds that he could not lease it to an oil company or to anyone for mineral purposes without first securing the approval of the Secretary of the Interior ; is that right ? — A. That is the opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General for the Department of the Interior. By Senator Beandegee : Q. The Assistant Attorney-General for the Department has so decided ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He may be right ; but offhand I would call that pretty bad law that saj's a man may alienate a thing by sale but can not lease it. That does not seem to me to be good law. — Well, I don't know about that, but that is what he says. The Chairman. It may be owing to some law that we may have passed. We have legislated so much on this question that none of us knows exactly the legal status of it. Senator Teller. That is right. We may be to blame for that anomaly. Do you mean this that we are talking about now ? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Teller. Oh, we have not passed any law of that kind. We are pretty bad sometimes, but never as bad as that. Senator Long. Don't be too sure that we have not. Senator Teller. We are not quite lunatics yet. Senator Brandegee. I want to ask Mr. Wright a question or two. Q. Mr. Wright, did you conduct an examination for the purpose of ascertaining whether there was any combination among these oil lessees to control the oil situation out here ? Mr. Weight. Yes, sir ; the office did. Q. At whose instance was that investigation made? Mr. Wright. By order of the Department that investigation was made by me and a report was made to the Department of the result of that investigation, under date of April 7, 1906 — that was embodied in a series of hearings held before the Secretary and printed, and I now furnish the committee with a copy of that investigation. Q. This is the only copy you have of that investigation ? Mr. Wright. Yes, sir. 576 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By Senator Teller: Q. Now proceed, Mr. Kelsey. — A. In the matter of a cash finan- cial showing I find a copy of a report of which I did not have any recollection at that time, that is, at the time that I testified, but I find here a 'report on an oil company which shows that all the money it had M'as a cash deposit of $210.76; but that companj' had producing oil wells and a number of leases. In furnishing their application they did not say what cash they had on hand or what their finances were, but I insisted on it and pointed out the impor- tance of it, and finally, after some delay, they made a showing which showed that was the extent of their finances, and their leases were approved. Q. Because they had the tools ? — A. Yes, sir ; and it was a produc- ing property and was in a good district, and while their cash had run down pretty low they were producing oil, and it was fair to infer that they would soon be in a different condition. They had their, tools and had developed their property and it was all paid for, so they were in pretty good shape in applying for approval of another lease, for they could go right on and develop it out of the proceeds of the producing property they had then. By the Chairman : Q. Do you know what showing they had made in their former application for leases ? — A. No, sir ; I don't. By Senator Beandegbe : Q. Let me ask you this question here. What is the smallest tract of land that has been leased which you have approved for oil develop- ment? — A. I think, in the Cherokee Nation as low as two acres, where there are fractional allotments. Well, less than that. Let me see. Well, I think — well the lowest that I recall now was three- quarters of an acre. Q. I notice that you use the term " string of tools." Now, what constitutes a string of tools? What constitutes a string of tools is according to what a man will have to pay for his outfit? — A. No, sir; the meaning of the expression " a string of tools " is just that — it means the outfit of machinery that is necessary for drilling a well. Q. It is a drilling outfit ? — A. Yes, sir ; a " string of tools " is one drilling outfit. Q. What is the ordinary cost of a first-class drilling outfit? — ^A. I could not say, because I am not familiar with the business in that way — that is, I am not familiar with the cost of drilling tools and equipment — but if you want my opinion, based on what I have heard about it, I can give it to you. Q. Well, what is it? — A. My information is that they cost from $2,500 to $4,000 each, according to the character of them. Q. And Avhat does it cost to drill a well ? — A. Well, I don't know that exactly, but I understand from $500 or $600 in the shallow fields all the way up to two or three or four thousand dollars, according to the depth and the difficulty they meet in the drilling. Some fields drill much easier and more inexpensively than the others, and the cost depends entirely on these difficulties and the depth. The deeper you go the more it costs per foot. Q. Are these applicants for these oil leases usually companies? — Yes, ser; the majority of them are corporations. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 577 By Senalor Loi^g: Q. I want to ask you in regard to the usual time it takes from the tirne the application is filed for your approval in your office, un- til it is finally approved by the Secretary of the Interior. I ask this question because there has been a great deal of delay incident to the securing of a lease and its approval — and I mean by that, that the delay has been in securing approval by the Secretary. — x\. I am glad you asked that question. I will say that the greatest delay oc- casioned in this matter has been by the negligence and carelessness of the oil companies asking for approval. They have the regulations and rules of the Department, and yet I will say that out of 10,000 leases filed, or applications filed in my office, there has not been 10 that were in proper shape for transmission to the Department. They are imper- fect either in their execution, errors in preparation, or omission of some necessary matter. It seems to be impossible to get them to pre- pare them properly. As a general rule they will file it without the accompanying papers. In the first place the company or individual filing the lease will wait until they see whether the execution is cor- rect — whether there is a prior lease or any other complications in the matter of allotments — they will wait to ascertain these things before the attorneys will go to the trouble and expense of getting certified copies of their corporation papers. As a general rule we call for that information when we receive the information from the Commissioner to the. Five Tribes regarding the allotment, which is usually in about five days, and then we have to wait for the other papers from the oil company. We usually have to call for them two or three times, and then after more or less delay we will get them by registered mail. I can show you cases where I have called for these papers three or four times, and the papers after a great deal of delay have been received and checked over, and then the lease has been sent on to Washington. Now there are cases where the parties will inform me that they are anxious to get their lease approved for the reason that the territory adjacent to them is being developed and they want to get to work drilling before their land will be drained. They urge that as a reason why their cases are given — why their cases should be given — expedi- tion, and in such cases I inform the Department, and I will say that I believe in all such cases where everything was straight and regular that there has been no delay worth mentioning. In other cases they are not in any hurry, for the country around them is being prospected, and their acreage, perhaps, is large, so they are not anxious to get the work, preferring, I suppose, that some one else prove up the country. The acreage is not charged up to them until the lease is approved, and if it is not approved, it is not charged up to them, so in a large number of cases they are not anxious for the approval of a lease when the country is being prospected in that particular locality; and in a great many cases leases have been abandoned after being approved, because operations on adjacent land have proved it not to be worth anything. Now I will answer your question. You asked me the short- est time it has taken to get a lease approved ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. The shortest time that I have known it to take for the approval of a lease was seventeen days. That was the lease for which the $17,000 bonus was paid. Owing to the fact that they • 578 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Avere draining the land, I sent it to the Commissioner " special " and got it back " special," and it came back here in seventeen days. Q. And that was the shortest time that you have any recollection of that it took to get a lease approved after it left your office? — A. Yes, sir. Q. "What was the longest time? — A. Well, they run anywhere from that time on up. There is a large number of leases in Wash- ington now which were there at the time these regulations were promulgated. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Wliat is the name of that oil-purchasing company to which most of these oil-producing companies sold their jDroduct? — A. The Prairie Oil and Gas Company. Q. Is that a corporation organized in this Territory? — A. No, sir. It is a corporation organized in some other State. Q. Do you know under what laws it is organized? — A. No, sir; all I know about it is that it is reputed to be a Standard Oil company, and, in fact, it is so admitted to be. Q. And they run. their pipe lines down into this field? — A. Yes, 'sir; they have their pipe lines all through the field — they cover the entire field. Q. Is that the only company having pipe lines in this field? — A. Yes, sir ; they are the only one having pipe lines here. They have a pipe line that runs from Tulsa around through Humboldt, Kans., and on to Kansas City, and, I understand, from there to Wiiting, Ind. Q. Does it cover the entire field where it has not been developed 1 — A. Xo, sir. They extend their pipe lines as the development demands. Q. Is there any other pipe line company anywhere in this coun- try? — A. Not of any consequence. There are a few local lines that have been built from certain localities to the railroads since the price of oil has been reduced. They have been built to the railroads so that the oil could be shipped by tank cars. That is all there is at the present time. There is, I understand, a pipe line projected from Tulsa to the Gulf — that is, merely projected. The Prairie Oil and Gas Company has the only pipe lines that I know of ex- cepting the ones to the railroads, which are short lines for local use, so as to get the oil to the railroads so it can be shipped by tank cars. This matter of pipe lines is one that is constantly under discussion. Q. The oil-producing people are interested in it? — A. Yes, sir; very much interested; and it is a question that is being discussed constantly. By Senator Teller: Q. Have you got any record of all the pipe lines? — A. No, sir; only where they get their right of way from the Secretary of the Interior over Indian lands. Where that has been done our office has it. That would be with reference to the assessments of damages to individual owners of land. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Do you think it woiild be a good policy to allow these people , who are producing oil to go ahead and build a pipe line of their own?- — A. I do. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 579 Q. AVhy do you think so ?— A. Well, there can be no question that it would be a great thing to the producer. The more pipe lines there are the better it is for the oil men. Oil here in this territory has gone down from a dollar to 39 cents a barrel. At the price there used to be here the Indian got a big royalty, but now it sells for 39 cents for the best grades, and on down for the lower grades, Q. Xow, on this question of delay in securing the approval of leases, how long did you say it takes to get the information from the Com- missioners to the Five Civilized Tribes? — A. How long does it take to get the desired information from that office ? Q. Yes, sir? — A. Well, it probably takes a week from the time I write the letter. Q. That office is right here in this town ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And so is your office ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, why should it take a week ? — A. It does not always take a week. Sometimes they have to send it to the outside land office to have it checked up — to check it up with the plats, allotments, and sur- veys, and see if it is right, and that takes some time. By Senator Long : Q. Well, these plats are now here, are they not? — A. Yes, sir; they are so far as the Cherokee Nation is concerned. Q. Well, it usually takes about ten days, does it not? — A. Some- times ; but I would say that about a week is nearer the time. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Where is this oil that is produced here in the Indian Territory refined? — A. Well, it is refined in Kansas or some place else — some place east. All I know of my own knowledge is that they pipe it out of here to some place in the east. There are a few local independent refineries in the Indian Territory, but their product is small. By Senator Long : Q. There is one refinery at Neodasha, and another at Kansas City, and another at Whiting, Ind. — A. Yes, sir. Now, in reference to these leases, while there is delay in the matter of these leases, I will say that in the last year and a half, since we have had a sufficient force on the work, there has been no delay that I know of, and for the last six months every lease that is ready for transmission to the De- partment, every lease that has been properly completed and made read}^ for transmission, goes forward to the Department at once. There is no delay whatever in this office. Q. An attorney in the matter of these leases usually represents an oil company? — A. Yes, sir; usually the oil men are somewhere else and they have an attorney to represent them. Q. And as soon as the lease is received it is forwarded right away ? — A. Yes, sir ; if it is all right it is forwarded right away. I have none in my office now excepting such as correspondence is being conducted about. They are always checked right up to the day and forwarded as completed. None are permitted to lie over. Notwith- standing that fact, I have 3,600 here now. Q. How much of an office force have you? — A. There is between 80 and 90 now in the office. Q. That does not include the inspector's office? — A. No, sir. There is twelve separate divisions in my office. There is the oil-lease divi- 580 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. sion, and that is one of the largest and most important — well, it is the largest and most important right now. The removal of restric- tions is the next most important. These two require more clerical force than all others. By Senator Claek, of Montana : Q. You are constantly making mining leases, too? — A. Yes, sir; and that is constantly growing, too. They are extending now into the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. In the Creek and Cherokee nations all leases are required to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior: Q. All leases there require the approval of the Secretary ? — A. Yes, sir ; all original leases do. Q. You said a while ago that in jsrocuring an oil lease the person securing it had to pay a bonus for it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Eunning, I believe you said, from $10 up to $17,000 ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, in addition to that, what is the usual royalty that an Indian gets on his land ? — A. Ten per cent. Q. Ten per cent of what? — A. Of the gross proceeds. Q. Ten per cent of the gross product ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who determines that? What statements are made to the Indian whereby he knows that his rights are protected and that he is getting the stipulated royalty? — A. Under the regulations his rights are protected from the agent's office through the lessee com- pany, or from the pipeline company. Q. How is that done — what is the method of procedure by which that is determined? — A. Well, the lessee company furnishes monthly a sworn statement of the production and we check that statement over with the statement of the pii^eline company that runs the oil, so we have the affidavit of the producer and the purchaser, and we collect the money monthly. Q. Do you collect the money from the pipeline company? — A. Yes, sir ; we do it that way where the lessee desires to make the pay- ment that way, or we do it from the lessees. That has grown to be a large business, this matter of the collection of royalties. The oil roy- alties have grown from $1,300 in the year 1904 to $325,000 for the fiscal year of 1906 just closed, and all that money is collected and handled in the Indian x\.gent's office. Q. How is it paid out, and when ? — A. It is collected and paid out immediately to the Indians, excepting in cases where there are minors or incompetents where they have guardians; and in such cases the money is placed in depositories and is drawn out as the court sees fit to order. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Does that pamphlet which you put in, containing the regu- lations of the Department, does that contain also the rules and regula- tions for leasing coal and mineral lands? — A. Yes, sir; all the rules and regulations and official forms prescribed are in there. Q. Is there anything you wish to say on the coal question? — A. In the Cherokee and Creek nations the leases are all filed with the De- partment and the sales of the product are all filed with the Depart- ment. There is not in the Cherokee Nation, I suppose, probably a FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 581 dozen operated, but the royalties are all paid in in the same way to the agent at the rate of 8 cents a ton for the coal mined. These royalties are calculated through the agent's office. By Senator Long : Q. Will you furnish to the committee a statement showing the acreage leased in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations ? — A. Yes, sir ; but I think the agent has a map printed which he will present to you showing that. The Chairman. I understand we will get that information at South McAlester. A. I have some maps showing the individual leases in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations as canceled and approved. I have that right here, and it shows you exactly their extent. The Chairman. Very well. Produce it. By Mr. Clark, of Montana : Q. Is there any coal in the Cherokee Nation ? — A. Very little. Oh, well, there is considerable, too. Now here is the map I referred to. The red tracts on this map show the leases approved, the blue shows the canceled or disapproved, and the green shows the pending leases. That is merely a rough draft, and does not attempt to give the acre- age. It is on too small a scale to do that. This is Tulsa here, and this is Bartlesville. I made these a couple of weeks ago. Since that was made a very large number of leases have been approved around in this Glen district. Q. This is the Glenn field that we have heard so much about ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is a new field ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It is south of Tulsa ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And it is very productive? — A. Yes, sir. It is nearly south of Tulsa and is a field that gives promise of a great production in the future. It is a great producing district right now — the greatest that has been struck in the Territory, and it is producing many thousands of barrels of oil daily now. Q. What nation is this in? — A. The Creek. You will see it by this map. This is the Creek and this the Cherokee. Q. We will be near this field when we are at Tulsa? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And this shows, also, Bartlesville? — A. Yes, sir; both Tulsa and Bartlesvillci Now I think that is about all I want to say or can say on the oil business. Q. Is there anything else you want to submit on the coal and oil business? — A. Well, you can get all the information you desire on the coal segregation at McAlester. There is the matter of restrictions. By the Chairman : Q. Yes, we want you to explain your method of procedure in the matter of the removal of restrictions under the present law. Just tell us all about it, who does it and how it is done, for we want Just tell us all about it, who does it and how it is done, for we want everything in connection with the removal of restrictions explained. You understand what we want ? — A. Yes, sir. Under the present act of April 21, 1904, Avhich provides that restrictions upon citizens may be removed on the application of the person desiring them removed, such application having received the recommendation of the Indian 582 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. agent and the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. That was the provisions of that act, briefly stated, but upon the passage of the act of April 26, 1906, the removal of restrictions was proliibited upon full bloods. A large number of applications were made by full bloods and a great many were disapproved largely on account of incompe- tency. Since the passage of that act the large majority of them were from part bloods, and 95 per cent or more were approved. The In- dian comes in and makes his ajDplication upon a form which I filed with the committee yesterday — or if I did not leave it with you, I can readily furnish you. The application has to be made by the Indian upon a form which was prepared and prescribed immediately after the passage of that act, in which he sets up his Indian blood and his desire to have them removed. That application is filed in the Indian agent's office here. At first it Avas required that they be submitted by the Indian agent upon his own statement, as there was no appropria- tion made for investigation of these applicants, and as a result, unless the agent himself could see these people himself at different points, they would have to come to Muskogee, and that was a great hardship, for some of the people would have to come a long way, and so I re- quested that Congress make an appropriation to carry on the work, if the law was to remain in effect, and last year you gave us $18,000 to proceed with the work; and a special agent was appointed to assist the agent, as he could not be in every place at once, and places were fixed for the hearings, and times were fixed for these hearings at all important points in the Territory ; and this special agent, who was recently appointed, made these tours and held these hearings and reported the result of these hearings at these various places to the agent. He would see the Indian and hear about him from liis neighbors and people who knew him and from his impression from his general appearance, and he would take his statement and any statement of any witnesses he wanted to produce, and the statements would be taken down by a stenographer and transcribed, and then the agent would make his report. That is the way it would be done at these other points in the Territory, but when it was held at Muskogee the}^ w^ould come here and I would see them myself. Q. It would be impossible for you to see all of them? — A. It was impossible for me to see them all in the whole Territory, but the ones that came to Muskogee I would see nearly all of them myself. It is, of course, impossible to see them away from Muskogee — unless they would come here on other business and be examined while here. Quite a number of them from distant points I saw in that way here. This first agent was given another position and another gentleman, Mr. H. C. Cusey, was given the position, or emploj^ed in his place, and by direction of the Department he was instructed to act for me in hearing these various applications; and he goes around to these various places and holds these hearings and makes his reports. The stenographer goes with him and takes notes, which he writes up, and he writes up the report of the field man as he sees them in the field. He reports his view of the case. He reports the fact of what the man is doing, and his general appearance and the impression that he made on the field man Avho saw him at his home — his general appearance, etc. — and then he closes with what he thinks about it and what he thinks should be done in that particular case, hav- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 583 ing in view the best interests of that particular Indian. The chief- thing that he is interested in is whether or not that Indian is competent to manage his business; whether he realizes the value of his property, and if he should dispose of it what his ideas are as to what he should do with the proceeds, for wc don't want to remove the restrictions on one who would squander it and be a charge on the community in a short time. If we had reason to sus- pect that that would result we would report adversely every time. Q. If that special agent who investigates the case reports in favor of a rejection, that ends the matter, does it not? — A. No, sir; not necessarily; for every allottee is examined personally by myself. Q. Do you, in the face of his objections, sometimes approve the application? — A. Quite frequently. His report is not conclusive or binding on me. The testimony may show that he was a one-sixteenth blood, and while he might not have much education, yet from his testimony and his application I might feel that it might be more advantageous to have his restrictions removed, and quite frequently I send it back to the field man for reconsideration. I make up every report and sign every case myself. Q. When you have finished a case what do you do? — A. It goes through the inspector or agent the same as an oil lease. Q. Does he sometimes reject them when you approve them? — A. Yes, sir; sometimes he does and sometimes it goes on and may be acted on differently by the Department from the way I act on it. Q. Well, suppose in a particular case that you have reported in favor of rejecting it, do they ever approve it? — A. They have sent it back for instructions. They sometimes believe that an applicant should have the restrictions removed, and they send it back to me for further inspection. Q. Do you know of any cases under such circumstances where you have adhered to your original report ? — A. Yes, sir ; I know of many cases where I have reconsidered and approved the application, and on the other hand I know of very many cases where I have adhered to my original finding. I have five cases on my desk now that have been sent back to me, and three of them I shall give further considera- tion. I don't know what my final decision will be, but I do know that in two of them I shall adhere to my original position and adhere to my disapproval; Q. A'^Tiat will probably be the result of you adhere to your posi- tion in disaproving them ? — A. Well, under the law, as it is- con- strued, it takes both of them, the Indian agent and the Secretary, to I'emove them. All the Secretary can do is to resubmit the matter to me and ask me to investigate it and see if I can't change my opinion. If I don't that ends it, for the way the law is construed it takes both of us to do it. If I think the Indian is not intelligent enough to make a proper use of his liberty to dispose of his projDerty, I decline to approve the removal every time. That is my position and I pro- pose to adhere to it. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Is this matter of removal of restrictions a question of intelli- gence entirely ? — A. No, sir ; not entirely, but largely. I have known of cases where it was a question of charity, and I know of cases where I have been sorry that I assisted in removing them. We can't always 584 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. be right, but we can try and be as near right as possible ; but, as I say, I have made mistakes and removed restrictions, or assisted in doing so, that I have since had cause to regret. Where they have come in and said that they were poor and helpless and poor and needed the money to improve their homesteads, so they could get something out of it to live on, I have approved the removal of their restrictions, for I believe that if there is a case where they ought to be removed it is in the case of the Indian who has a lot of land that he can't do anj'thing with. A white man would make the shift of getting a start if you put him on the land without a thing; but it is different with these Indians, they have to have a start and very often they will fail. They have been kept up by the Government so long that they don't know how to do things for themselves, and they will come in and ask for the removal of restrictions so they can sell some of their sur- plus to improve the homestead with, and when they sell it they will go and squander the money away in riotous living; and in selling it they don't very often show any business sense in driving a good bar- gain ; they will let it go for a small sum, frequently only a fraction of its actual worth. If there could be some plan formulated and put in practice, so that the improvements could be made for him, and he would not have the disposition of the proceeds himself it would be a good thing, but that seems to be impracticable. I have known cases where the restrictions were removed and they have sold the land and in a very short time they had neither land nor money. Ninety-five per cent of them are poor and absoluteh^ improvident. Since the first of July there has been forwarded nearly sixteen hundred cases, and out of these I don't think that there was twenty disapproved. Q. Xow, from the time of the passage of the act of April, 1904, until the end of the fiscal year 1905 how many applicants was there and how many approvals? — A. I can tell you, for I have it right here. In the fiscal year of 1905, there was, well up to the fiscal year of 1905, there had been 338 cases approved out of Q. Well, 3'ou can furnish that information later on ? — A. I can do it now as well as anytime, for I have it right here. Q. Well, go ahead then? — A. In the fiscal year of 1905 there was 338 approvals and 998 disapprovals. Q. And how many pending, unacted on? — A. Well, there was probably 800 pending at the end of that year. Now, you understand that was prior to the time we had the appropriation to investigate. Q. Now how many was there in this last fiscal year? — A. In this last fiscal year there was 2,083 approvals and 981 disapproved, and on the 7st of July there was pending ready for approval 1,100 cases. Q. Eleven hundred cases pending? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Pending where? — A. Here. They were pending and ready for transmittal on the 1st of July, but owing to the fact that we only had the ajDpropriation a couple of months before that time they accumu- lated on us, but they have all been forwarded since that time and ap- proved. Q. There are none of these, then, at this time, remaining undisposed of? — A. No, sir. Q. That is all. By the Chairman : Q. Is it not a fact that in certain portions of the Indian Terri- tory — in the oil field — there has been recognized by the Interior De- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 585 partment no applications for the removal of restrictions, and that in the oil fields no application for the removal of restrictions has been considered? — A. Within the first few months after the discovery of oil in large quantities in the Territory I recived a map from the De- partment showing the area of the oil region and I was instructed or requested not to forward applications for the removal of restrictions upon Indians who were allotted land in that area. Q. There was no reason given for doing that ? — A. No, sir. Q. You received instructions not to forward applications for the removal of restrictions from that Territory? — A. Yes, sir; I was instructed not to do it. At the present time applications are being filed, however, and investigations are being made of these applicants preliminary to reporting on them, and I will state that at the present time I have applications on file for the removal of restrictions in this oil territory amounting to 126 in number. Q. In the oil belt ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Not forwarded? — A. No, sir; they have been withheld on ac- count of these instructions. There was on the passage of that act about thirteen hundred applications from full bloods dismissed, mak- ing a total of about 3,400 cases, nearly, that were By Senator Long : Q. I want to have your opinion upon the necessity of having these cases go to Washington, or, rather, your opinion upon the proposi- tion of having some competent authority down here tha;t could pass on the question of the propriety or impropriety of removing these restrictions. Since the change in this law — what is your opinion as to that? — A. There can be no question about the fact that it would facilitate action, for it necessarily takes time for the papers to go to Washington and back. Q. And would not the work be just as effective? — A. Undoubtedly so, if that person so authorized to act was properly empowered by Congress. By Senator Teller : Q. It is in very rare instances that any of these matters come under the personal attention of the Seeretary or are given his personal at- tention? — A. Some of them are signed by his personal signature. Q. Well, it does not follow that he examines any particular case because he signed it ; that does not follow. The Secretary has a great deal to do in his office, and there is such an overwhelming mass of business to be attended to, with so much detail work, that it is prepos- terous to expect that the Secretary can give personal attention to each individual case. — A. I don't know about that — that is probably right. Q. I know it is right. No man living, if he worked every minute of the twenty- four hours, could do it. By the Chairman : Q. Is it not a fact that whatever follows after the application leaves here is purely formal ? — A. I have no knowledge of what they do in Washington further than they examine the record that is sent there from here, only I suppose they have an opportunity to ex- amine the person there if they desire. I was going to explain a little further in reference to cases that are personally known to the agent. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 38 586 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. There are cases of many people personally known to the agent, where they would require no hearing, for there are many Indians here in the Territory that I know personally are fully competent to attend to their own business — as competent as I am, and perhaps more so ; so in these cases it really don't require any hearing, and such cases when application is made are recommended at once and without any hear- ing. Here is Chief Porter and men of that class; no one questions their ability to handle their business. Here is a case of that kind, and here is another case that I recommended myself, and it is fol- lowed by the report of the field man. They are ready to be sent in now, and will be forwarded immediately, but as I had them ready I thought I would bring them in and show them as an example of the way business is clone in that connection. These furnish a fair exam- ple of the way it is done, and these are no sample cases; they are actual cases all ready to be signed and forwarded. Now, I believe Senator Clark asked me how long it took to have an application for removal of restrictions acted on. I came near forgetting that. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Yes, sir; I would like that information. — A. Well, there has been a very wide difference as to time. Some of them go through very quickly and some take a longer time. I can not say what the extremes would be, but I will say that taking it all together that the average length of time in which they are acted on is about thirty days ; or probably it would be safer to say a month and a half. There are some in Washington now that were sent last April or May, but they are in the oil cases. Now, there was a man named Walker who made a statement or testified here a day or two ago, and I looked it up and saw that he was personally known to me, and he was recommended by me, for his land was in that oil belt. Q. Do you know what proportion of the persons who are available for the removal of their restrictions — the people who have restric- tions or are subject to restrictions — do you know about what propor- tion of them have made application for the removal of their restric- tions? — A. Well, a very small portion of them. I have the total number of applications here. Q. AVhat is the number of applications? — A. Well, there has been just about 7,500 have made application, and about 4,000 of them have been removed. Now a great manj' of these who made application to have their restrictions removed were full bloods Avhose applications were dismissed by the operation of that act of Congress. Q. So out of about 7,500 applications for the removal of restric- tions about 4,000 have been granted? — A. Yes, sir; and a portion of the 4,000 were dismissed by the operation of that last act of Congress. Q. I understand. Now about how many allotments have been made altogether? — A. There is some 95,000 citizens enrolled — minors and freedmen, intermarried whites, and Indians by blood. Of these there is about 25,000 full bloods, but for all practical purposes they are out of consideration now. I can give you the figures, if you desire, on each class. Q. Well, you may do so, if you have them there. — A, The inter- married are 2,109, and the freedmen are 20,000. In the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations the freedmen allotment is only a homestead, and PIVB CIVILIZED TEIBES. 587 he can't alienate it. The mixed bloods altogether are in the neigh- borhood of 42,000, and of them the restrictions have been removed on some 4,000 through the agency ofHce, which is proportionally a small number. I would say that with the pi'esent facilities the appli- cations are being acted on as rapidly as possible. As fast as they apply now they are being removed. I sign in the neighborhood of twenty a day, and they are all practically removed. By Senator Long : Q. I notice that on the blank form that you fill out and send to the Secretary of the Interior you recommend on that that the restrictions be removed, and the Secretary approves the recommendations, and when that is done he has removed the restrictions, as you understand it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where was that form prepared? — A. The Assistant Attorney- General prepared it, I understand. That is the regular form as prepared by him, and that form, when filled out properly and signed by the agent and the Secretar}', is all that is needed. Q. Well, do you think that blank form, as prepared, is correct under the law ? — A. I would not care to exjDress an opinion. Q. Well, you have an opinion? — A. Not being a lawyer, I am not prepared to say. This is the certificate that is recorded in the same manner as a deed, and this is the one that the showing of the trans- fers are made on. This is the form prepared by the law officers of the Department. Now, there is some attorne}' who recently brought up that very question Q. \\Tiat question do you refer to? — A. Some attorney recently brought up the question that there should be a positive order remov- ing the restrictions, and that is something that I have submitted to the Department in the last few days. Q. Now, in this sample case you have submitted you make the state- ment that the applicant to have his restrictions removed is an one- eighth Indian [reading same]. Now, do you get this information from his application, or do you know the Indian personally? — A. I know it personally. Q. Then you make that statement of your own personal knowl- edge? — A. Yes, sir. I make that statement where I know the man well enough to know that it is true. By Senator Beandegee : Q. In the case of the mixed bloods you spoke of, what proportion of their numbers are minors? — A. Well, that is hard for me to say. I have no information as to that. That information would have to be got from the records of the commissioners to the Five Civilized Tribes. Q. You have no idea what the number of minors is? — A. No, sir; but probably about the usual proportion. Q. That would make the percentage of minors among that total number ; that would make a larger percentage ? — A. Yes, sir. There is about 42,000 mixed bloods who could have their restrictions re- moved by this plan, and there is only 4,000 of them removed; and taking the minors, which would be one-fourth or one-fifth, the pro- portion might be much more. Q. Did you state how long you had been in this office here? — A. Yes, sir ; I believe I stated that to the stenographer here yesterday. 588 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Well, how long have you been in it? — A. I have been in the Government service between twelve and thirteen years — two years and a half in the Government land service and two years and a half among the Kiowas and Comanches, and here in Muskogee eight years, and since July 1, 1905, I have been Indian agent here, for at that time I took charge of this office. Q. What is your age ? — A. Thirty-one. By Senator Long : Q. That is a sample case where the agent in the field signs himself as your representative ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He makes a representation similar to that in each case? — A. Yes, sir; his rei^ort is that he finds the man to be partly of Indian blood, as described there, and that he believes him to be a man ca- pable of attending to his own business. Now, that is his report; and if I find that it is not correct I may reverse it. Q. Well, is that a sample case? — A. It is a sample case; yes, sir. It is one that I just picked up off my desk, and it is all ready to be forwarded. Q. The evidence he took at the time and the application containing your letter to the Secretary of the Interior recommending the removal of the restrictions? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that is all there is to it? — A. Yes, sir; and when this cer- tificate is signed and returned and recorded it is delivered to the Indian. Now, when the statement was made yesterday' that the Indians did not receive advice of the removal of restrictions until after other outside people had received it, I would like to explain that, if you please. Q. Well, the charge is that it leaks out in Washington. There is no charge, as I understand it, that it leaks out here; but it is charged that the place where the leak is is in Washington. — A. I don't know. Q. Or elsewhere — there is a leak somewhere, according to the charge? — A. I don't know about that, but some months ago it was brought to the attention of the Department that attorneys out here had telegrams or advices of the removal of restrictions and that they would get such advice of such removal long before the Indian would know it; and the matter was discussed, and it was decided to give the information out to the public, and that is the way it has been done since that time. I now have in mind a case that was brought to my attention where a land speculator went to an Indian and told him that he had been to see me and I had told him that the restrictions wouldn't be removed, but he would give him $50 for his land — he said that he would chance $50 on it any way, and the Indian sold it to him, and there was nothing to it. The Indian's restrictions were removed, and that fellow got the Indian's land for that paltry sum. Now, the present plan is that when the lease is approved it is not sent to my office, but it is sent to the office of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, and at the same hour that that list is posted in the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs the office of the Dawes Commission here is informed of with the names, and that is done so the public here may know simultaneously with the posting of the list in Washington. Here is a list that was published last night. Then this certificate contains a provision that it is to become effective thirty days from date; so the Indian if he gets prompt notice will FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 589 know thirty days before his restrictions will be removed that they will be removed, and therefore no deed made before that time will be valid, and as there is this thirty days to go on the speculator has a poor chance to keep the Indian from knowing it, as the knowledge is public property during that time, and the Indian is also specially notified of the fact that his restrictions will be removed by a certain time. I don't believe a better plan can be devised than is pursued now; and I don't believe that under this plan the speculator can receive any undue advantage or any kind of advantage. That plan was aimed primarily at the land speculators, in which this country is prolific, who would start out, get advance information, and start out after the Indian whose restrictions had been removed, and in one way and another induce him to part with his land for a trifle, or far under its value, and I believe under the present plan that has been entirely done away with. Q. How long has it been since that proviso was put on the end there? — A. I suppose it was about eight months ago. Prior to that time I believe the charge was very well and properly made that some people did get advance information — I believe that now has been entirely prevented. Q. Now, what have you to say to the charge that the removal of restrictions has usually been brought about or obtained by some party who is interested in the matter in the way of getting the land after the restrictions are removed — that some person has made a side arrangement for the purchase of the land from the Indian with the proviso that if he can get the restrictions removed he will pur- chase the land from the Indian? What have you fo say on that matter? — A. I don't believe that is true in the majority of cases. I don't believe it is true in even a small minority of them. I will admit that it may be true in the case of some of the more ignorant cases. Now I am referring to the mixed bloods — I don't believe it could be said to apply to them ; but I will say that I believe that undoubtedly it was true to a large extent among the full bloods when they could have their restrictions removed. When the full bloods' applications were being received, I know of a case in the Choctaw Nation — and that is where the Indians received a larger share of land than anywhere else in the territory — where one man brought sixty applications for re- moval of restrictions among the full bloods, and on communication with these Indians not one of them wanted their restrictions removed. This man went out and said, " if you will come in the agent will have your restrictions removed," and when they were informed as to what it was they did not want them removed. Now, it is undoubtedly true that that could be worked and was worked on the full bloods, but I don't think it ever was true of the great majority of the half-breeds or mixed bloods. As a general rule the larger part of them are absolutely as competent to take care of their own business as a similar number of whites, and that rule is true in all the nations. Now you can't draw any line or any hard and fast rule that will fit every case. You can't say that all half bloods are competent or that all full bloods are incompetent, because it would not be true. You will find incompe- tent part bloods and you will find competent full bloods, or vice versa. You never can say definitely, and you have to judge each case by itself and pass on its merits. 590 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. Well, are the larger portion of the full bloods incompetent ?- A. They are so called incompetents, but, as I say, that is not true o all of them ; but the truth is that the most of them utterly fail to see o: realize or appreciate the value of their land. They may know some thing about the value of other things, but they don't seem to bi capable of understanding that their land is something of specia value. Through all their history their land has been held in common it Avas as free as the air they breathed or the water they drank aiu they ranged over it at will, and made their habitations wherever the; wished, and it has become a kind of an inherited instinct with them that land is about the most abundant and cheap thing they have Some of them value it and appreciate its value, but the majority o them don't. This applies to the full bloods. For this reason they an good material for the scheming and unscrupulous. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. But when you found a person who had physical disabilities such as old age and so on, that incapacitated them from working yoi recommended the removal even in the case of the full bloods? — ^A Yes, sir; in some extreme cases where they were old and needed i for their support I did it knowing they would sell, and indeed tha was the purpose of it ; but I have been excessively careful in so man] cases, and was sure that it ought to be done, and even with all thii care I would find afterwards it was an unwise thing, for they woulc dispose of their land and in a very short time have neither the lane or the money. I have known of many pitiable cases where the re strictions have been removed on my recommendation and in a shor time the Indians were in a state of abject and absolute poverty. Thii country right now is full of such cases, and I say to you gentlemer that my experience and that of every one who has had the oppor tunity to observe and who will come up here and tell the facts aboul it is that the full blood, as a class, is not competent to manage hii own business. I feel that there should not be any absolute ba] against the removal of restrictions, but if it could be done under th( supervision of some board or authority who would have power tc dispose of the proceeds and invest it in some manner so that th( Indian would have the means of living it would be a good thing foi the country, but I don't believe it would under any other conditions My experience is that it would be the worst thing for the Indians especially the full bloods, to indiscriminately remove their restric tions, for if that were done it would be a short time until they woulc have nothing — neither money nor land. Now this applies to tli( majority — the great majority — but, like all rules, it has its exceptions and there are many full bloods . who would prove that they wen amply able to look out for their own interests. I don't think th( present condition is ideal by any means. Q. Then you don't think the present law is a good one? — A. No sir ; I do not in this, that the Indians are rich, but it is a kind oi riches that they can't use — they are land poor — so far as their land is concerned. In the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations particularl) there are families whose holdings run up into the hundreds anc thousands of acres ; and these families, not one in twenty, know jus where their land is. Their homesteads are in the hills and mountains and their surplus is in the valleys, where it is farmed out to somi FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. 591 speculator, and don't do them a bit of good. You can't get these Indians, whose whole life has been passed in the hills and mountains, to go down into the valleys and make their homes there. This surplus land is farmed by tenants and the Indians never see it, and don't know where it is, and, in fact, wouldn't know it if they were to see it. Q. I understand you to say that you think there ought to be a law that would permit them to sell their lands under some sort of super- vision ? — A. Yes, sir. I don't know how it could be done, but if their land is sold they ought to have some protection against wasting and dissipating it. They will do it sure every time if left under their control. Q. Well, have you any suggestions as to how this should be done ? — A. It is a difficult problem to tackle at best,'but I believe that certain full bloods should have their restrictions removed wholly and absolutely by some competent authority. There is some question as to the legality or constitutionality of this last law, which has been very well presented to j'ou here, and, of course, not being a lawyer I am not able to arrive at any conclusion as to that; but if Congress attemps in any way to regulate and control these full bloods it should certainly be in the way of protecting these incompetent Indians. I know, as Indian agent, I would not want to do it. I don't want the responsibility of saying what Indians should be re- leased or which ones should not. Any way you look at it, the respon- sibility is very great, and it means so much for the future of these people, but there should be some way of getting at it. However, I can't attempt to outline a plan. It is too much for me. I have known cases, literally by the thousand, where these people have been imposed on outrageously in the matter of leases and sales. Q. But under competent supervision you would in certain cases allow them to dispose of their surplus lands? — A. I do, most em- phatically, for they hold the best lands in the Territory — all of it — and they will never improve it or farm it themselves, so it is a ques- tion that vitally affects the power of this country to progress. If the lands are retained absolutely in the hands of the Indians it is as effectual a bar to progress as can be devised. They will never farm this land, and it will never be and good to them, and they should be allowed to sell it under some sort of supervision, as we do in the Creek Nation at this time. Q. What is the plan there? — A. In the Creek Nation we sell the land under the sealed-bid plan, and the money is held for the benefit of the Indian, and he gets his $50 a month every month, and if he wants to build a house or improve his land or to pay off his just debts he goes to the Indian agent and gets permission, with the authority of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to do so, and he gets the money and puts it where it can do the most good. We are doing it that way up there ; but the fact is that very few sales of that kind are being made now. Q. So you think that the sealed-bid system of selling the land worked well up there? — A. Yes, sir; I think so, only the charge is made that the speculator got all the land. Q. Why is that charge made? — A. Well, it comes about through the delay in handling it, and the uncertainty as to whether a person who bids will get it keeps the farmer from buying it. When a farmer comes down here to get a farm he wants it right away — he 592 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. wants it just the same as he would in Missouri or Illinois or Kansas- he expects he won't have any more trouble than in the States, and when he finds that he has to put in a sealed bid which will not be opened for some time that, coupled with the uncertainty that he will get it, keeps him from bidding, for he won't as a rule wait. He comes here and sees a piece of land that he likes and wants and he makes application for it, and he has to wait sixty days for the adver- tisement, and then he bids, and if his bid is accepted he has to wait to get it approved, and if he does bid he don't know that it will be sold to him. Some one may bid higher and get it; so, taking these things into consideration, he concludes that he hasn't the time to lose, and he passes on to some locality where there is not so much red tape. On the other hand, the speculator is always with us, and he can afford to wait. Q. It is the idea to abandon it, or leave him at the mercy of any adventurer that comes along. — A. Now, I am glad to say that a large per cent of these part-blood Indians are competent, and I think they should be relieved of their disabilities in that respect, and I am reliev- ing them as fast as I can, or as fast as they come up and ask to be relieved ; but I can't say the same of the full bloods. I believe that the incompetent full blood should be protected against his own incom- petence and improvidence in a way that is legal and the way that Congress in its wisdom may direct. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. What do you mean by the phrase or word " incompetent " ?— A. I mean the Indian or person who does not realize the value of his land or his property — the one who is not able to cope with the brighter minds that surround him on every hand, waiting for an op- portunity to despoil him. In other words, I mean the full bloods. By Senator Teller : Q. You pay no attention to the applications of full bloods for removal of restrictions ? — A. No, sir ; under your act of Congress we dismiss them as soon as they come up. Q. But you have removed their restrictions? — ^A. Yes, sir; before that act went into force. Now, I can cite you many cases where I have removed the restrictions from full bloods, and I can cite you just about as many cases where it has proved to be to their detriment, for they sold their land and now they have neither the money or the land. Now, while I can do that I don't believe there has been a single case where the removal of the restrictions has in the slightest degree been a benefit to the full blood. There may be such cases, but, if so, I can't cite you to one of them. I would not want to say, however, that every full blood has been an incompetent in business affairs, for there are many that are not so ; but, as a rule, they don't want their restrictions removed. By Senator Long : Q. What would you say as to the results of the wholesale removal of the restrictions from the freedmen by the act of 1904? — A. Well, I havn't been dealing in land, and I don't know. Q. Well, have the freedmen parted with their lands to any great extent ?- -A. The most of the freedmen that I know have parted with their lands. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 593 Q. How is that? — A. The greater per cent of them have parted with their lands. Q. The greatest part of them have parted with their land — that is, of the freedmen? — A. Yes, sir; I think so. Q. At a good price or a poor price? — A. Well, some of them got a very good price. That is not the question to my mind, though, for it don't matter what price they get if they don't know how to use the proceeds. Now, there is no question but what it would be to the in- terest of this country to have these lands settled up. That is the ques- tion of prime importance here with every progressive citizen, and I believe the people here, taken as a whole, are just as honest, and cer- tainly they are as progressive, as any people on earth. I don't believe that you will find cities and local improvements like we have here in any community anywhere laboring under the disadvantages that exist here; and another thing, people down here don't object to being taxed for these things ; but they almost to a man go on the theory that the only rule to follow is that of the greatest good to the greatest number. Q. What is the homestead allotment in the Choctaw Nation? — A. It varies according to the value of the land allotted. Sometimes it is 160 acres and sometimes it is 2,000 acres. They get their land allotment on the basis of its value per acre. If it is only 50-cent land, they get a great deal more than if it is 6-dollar land. Q. So the homestead in some cases has more acres and in others less? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Taking it as a whole they get a good deal more land down there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They get a good deal more land down there than the allottees did in the Creek and Cherokee nations ? — A. Yes, sir ; the allotments are larger. By Senator Brandegee : Q. The value of the land decided how much of it there will be in a homestead? — A. Yes, sir; or in any other allotment, such as surplus land. It is fixed as to size by the valuation placed on the land selected for allotment. Q. Now, what is your theory, if you have any, as to what is to become of the children of the present full-blood adult Indian after they sell their surplus land — -that is, if 160 acres makes a homestead for one family? — A. No; that is not it. Each individual, whether adult or minor, has his allotment of a homestead and surplus lands, and under present conditions a minor can't sell his allotment at all under any circumstances, but the father and mother still have the care of the minor child and his allotment or land — that is, if they are appointed guardian. You understand that full bloods are not per- mitted now to sell any of their land. Q. Yes, sir ; but suppose that they were permitted to do so, and sup- pose, further, that when the minor comes of age he sells his home- stead ? Suppose that these restrictions were taken off and they should do that ? What I want to get at is what would become of these full- blood Indians if they should do that? — A. I am afraid that it is a proposition that the State and Congress will have to determine. If they sell their lands, I can foresee what will become of them, the State will be burdened with their care. 594 E'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Well, Congress won't have anything to do with it then, for you will be a State down here then. Now, what I want to know is if the full-blood Indian is allowed to sell his land what will become of him? That is the proposition that J am interested in noAV. — A. Well, I sincerely believe that a large per cent of them will be on the State. Q. As charges? — A. Yes, sir; that the State will have to keep them, for they will stay right here. I hope it would only be a small per cent of them, but I can only hope. I sincerely and truly believe that a small percentage of them should be protected in some way. Q. Protected in what way? — A. Well, that is not for me to say. It is up to you gentlemen to say. If I was a legislator I might pro- pound a scheme. Q. Well, you are the kind of man that we like to get ideas from. You have had experience, and you have thought over it, and we would consider it a favor if you would give us your ideas as to the manner in which this protection should be granted. — A. Well, gentle- men, I am too modest to formulate a theory. It is not my place to do it, and, really, while I have thought over the matter very deeply, I con- fess that I have been unable to see my way to a solution of the prob- lem. Now, that is all I can say. Now, gentlemen, I just want to tell you of one case where the restrictions did protect. There may be many cases now where Indians are signing these deeds to speculators in Indian lands and others, on the theory that the Curtis law of April 26, 1906, is illegal and unconstitutional, and on the theory that they have the right to do' it, and there are many such cases, I have no doubt, where they are doing it for a small sum or part of what the title is really worth if it turns out that they get a good fee title. Q. There are companies and individuals proceeding along these lines? — A. Yes, sir; companies and individuals who are taking deeds and contracts for deeds and wills of Indians for an inade- quate consideration. Q. Do you know the extent of it? — A. No, sir; but I have had some Indians complain to me that they were induced to sign papers, and they did not know what they were signing. Q. Are there any offices or companies or individuals here in Mus- cogee who are taking these conveyances or titles acting under the advice of attorneys in taking these contracts and conveyances from full bloods — acting on the theory that these restrictions imposed by the act of April 26, 1906, is illegal and unconstitutional? — A. I don't know; but I suppose it is being done. I can give you an instance of a will that recently came to my attention — a will of a full-blood Indian to a white man. I was requested to pay to the beneficiary of certain Mississippi Choctaws under letters testamen- tary. It came to me in such a manner and it was so absurd that I referred it to the Department. It was the most absurd ar- rangement that I ever heard. It was this Avay, and purported to be the last will and testament of a Choctaw Indian — one of the Missis- sippi Choctaw — and it read this way: "(so and so) bequeath to my dear wife five dollars and to Mr. (so and so) the balance of my allot- ment." That was what purported to be the will and testament of that Indian, and it appealed to me as being so absurd and ridiculous and inequitable that I at once referred the whole matter to the De- partment for it to handle. PrVE CIVILIZED lEIBES. 595 By Senator Teller : Q. Was the Indian dead ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He ought never to have been alive. Was the will probated? A. Yes, sir. Now, I have thousands, literally thousands, of them in my office to-day. Now, these are the Mississippi Choctaws, the most ignorant of ^ the whole Indian population, and they are absolutely indigent and without one iota of thrift. Q. They are more ignorant than the average Choctaw? — A. Oh, Lord, yes ; they can not in any sense be classed with the Choctaw of this countrj'. There are no points of comparison at all. Q. How many of them is there here ? — A. I don't know. Q. About how many? — A. I can't say. They are not enrolled here. Q. Well, haven't you any idea how many there is of them ? — A. Oh, yes; I have it here. Here it is; there is'2,300 of them. I have one man that don't do anj^thing else but work on them. Q. You say they are Nvhat kind of Choctaws? — A. Mississippi Choctaws. Q. They came here from Mississippi ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How did they come to come here — they -came recently? — A. Yes, sir ; in the past few years. Q. Well, how did they happen to come here? — A. Well, they were brought here by speculators or people who hoped to allot them and then get control of their allotments. Nearly all of them were brought here by one man, now a speculator, and they were allotted lands, and there is not one of them, I believe, who knows where his allotment is or anything about it. Q. Well, from your description of them I would think that they would be just as well off without their allotments as they are with them ? — A. Possibly so. Now, here is the question of these wills that I referred to a moment ago — where they leave $5 to their dear wife and all the rest to some one else. Well, I will pass that. I wanted to speak of one oil case where the restrictions to my knowledge has protected the Indians. There may be hundreds of cases where it would not protect them, but this is surely one of the cases where the restric- tions did protect the Indians. Now, I will give you the name of this Indian and you can look him up and find out if I don't state the facts. His name is John Falleaf (FalUeaf). He is a Delaware Indian, and he had 40 acres over here near Bartlesville — has it yet in fact. It was three or four miles from the oil production, but it was right in the line of development. It laid directly in the direction of the oil trend that was progressing in the direction of his land and some persons went to him and bought his land from him on the promise of getting his restrictions removed, and they were to pay him $10 for the 40 acres, and in the investigation that was held over the application to remove the restrictions on this Indian the testi- mony showed that it was a rocky forty and not in cultivation or fit for cultivation. Well, the case was written up by my representative in the field, and it was written up for approval of removal of restric- tions, stating that the land was not fit for agricultural purposes or for any other purpose and that was all it was worth. Well, the case came to my desk for approval, and I happened to know where that land was and the prospects for finding oil on it, so I said to myself, 596 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. " I'll just leave it there for a few days." Well, I kept it there, anc in a few days the lawyer who was representing the lessee came to mt and requested me to send it on for approval, but T didn't ; I thoughl I'd just hold it for awhile ; and in a few days he came again with th( request to send it on, but I still held on to it ; and then began to com( letters saying I'll give twenty and twenty -five and fifty and seventy five and a hundred dollars for it, raising the price right along. Well to make a long story short, wells were coming in every day, almost in that direction ; and finally the development proved that it was oi land, and I made them pay that Indian—they took it on such termi that it paid that Indian $400 every month for royalty, and the fe< to that land is worth at least $10,000 to-day, and yet that Indian wai willing to sell it for $10. Now, that is an instance of where thf restrictions help the Indian, and there is lots of them. I wil venture the assertion that there is not a single lease that is paying the Indians thousands of royalties monthly but what could hav( been purchased for a song if it were not for these restrictions. Tha tract of land I refer to is one of the best oil tracts in the Territory. Q. Instances are on record where the Department has refused t( remove these restrictions on land and where oil has not been found ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, take this case you refer to — suppose that the oil had no been found on it, what then ? — A. Well, it would not have made mucl difference. What they were offering him was not worth anything It would not have made him rich, and the loss of it certainly coulc not have made him any poorer. I knew that country up there. ] kept myself informed and knew something about the strike or trenc of the oil, and the chance was taken, and it was a winning chance. • Q. A kind of a gamble ? — A. Yes, sir ; but nothing like the gambl( the fellow was taking who wanted to get it in the first instance. Hi could well afford to take that chance. It would have been one of th( best chances he ever came across if he had got it ; and the fact tha he did not get it made the Indian's chance. Now, I don't want yoi Senators to understand that that man's case would keep me fron recommending the removal of restrictions in the oil field if I though that the man was competent. Hundreds of people who own land ii the oil fields know the value of that land and can readily take can of it — can take better care of it for themselves than I can for them I don't believe in restricting any man's power to dispose of his prop erty absolutely and irrevocably at will if he is competent, be h white, red, or black. That, however, was one case where I did no think so, and the result proved that I was right. Now, there has been some question brought up here about thi removal of restrictions on part bloods, or on the homesteads of par bloods, and some Indian or some one else here said that they did no think it should be done without the consent of the part bloods. Thes people were in favor of allowing them to dispose of their surplus i they wanted to — that is, remove the restrictions on their surplus Now, I wish to say that if the part bloods are capable of handlini properly their surplus land they are just as capable of handling thai homesteads, and I am in favor of letting him handle his homesteai as well as his surplus free of restriction — that is, I mean if th restriction is removed froin one it should be removed from the other but that is a matter that can and will be arranged in such a manne FIVE CIVII.IZED TRIBES. 597 as Congress sees fit. Now, I believe it was Senator Brandegee who asked if it always took two or three witnesses in the removal of restrictions. It don't take any at all. In many cases there is not a witness taken at all. We see the applicant and we may know him. but if. we don't we judge the matter more by his manner and his apparent intelligence and appearance generally. A great many of them are decided on that evidence solely. Q. How many men have you in the field examining witnesses ? — -A. Only one. He travels around most of the time. If I had more I could remove more restrictions ; but as it is I could not put any more force on the work, for the appropriation is not sufficient. By Senator Brandegee: Q. In considering the question of the removal of restrictions on the full blood, is it not a fact that it is a matter of education, and whether he can read and write, and whether he appears to under- stand the value of his land? — A. Not particularly his education. Did you say a full blood ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, when their restrictions were removable it was not particularly his educational qualifications that governed. That was not a prime factor. I think that many men not edu- cated at all are more shrewd in their land deals than some others who are highly educated. I don't think that a man's fitness to direct his affairs depends on his education at all, not, at any rate, in the kind of business that a farmer would be engaged in down here. Q. So that you think that a man's ability to deal in land and judge of its value does not depend on the education that he has received ? — A. Not by any means. I have seen men totally without education who were the most shrewd traders in the country. I know some of them now. Q. They are white men ? — A. Yes, sir ; but that don't make any dif- ference; the rule is just as good whether they be red or white or black. Now, I remember that there was one man here who said that the restrictions off many full bloods had been removed ; now that was not right. A very small percentage of the full bloods have had their restrictions removed. Now, that is about all that I have to say. That is all I can think of now, at any rate. Yes, there is one question I wish to speak about, and that is the question of heirship, that was brought up here a few days ago in reference to inherited lands. Now, I believe that is a matter that should receive your most earnest consideration, for the question of heirship in that particular discussed before you is a very serious question down here. The courts claim to have no jurisdiction, and the Department can't do any- thing except in an ex parte manner, so it should be fixed up in some way so the people will know just what the law is. By Senator Long : Q. Mr. Wright, I desire to ask you a question or two. What was the date of that report that you made to the Secretary of the Interior making certain recommendations on the removal of restrictions? — A. On the 12th of this month. Q. On the 12th day of November, 1906?— A. Yes, sir. Q. You do not know whether it has been published yet, do you ? — A, No, sir. In fact I know that it won't be sent up to the Depart- 598 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ment until the investigation here is concluded, and if anything de- velops here that would warrant a further investigation it will prob- ably be made. But it will be sent in by me as under that date. Q. It will be sent under that date ? — A. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I see Colonel Zevely in the room, and T under- stand that he has something to say on the question that we are considering. I am sure that the committee would like to hear from him in reference to the leasing of oil and gas lands in the Creek and Cherokee nations. By Senator Long : Q. Mr. Wright, can you furnish the committee a copy of that re- port? — A. Yes, sir; I can, and I will either furnish the committee with a copy of it or send it to you. STATEMENT OF ME. J. W. ZEVELY. Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the committee, the Commercial Club of this city, in obedience to a request preferred by this committee, sought to arrange for a discussion of these matters and appointed committees, as you know, to discuss these various questions, and designated a committee of five to arrange for a discussion of this matter before your committee, said committee of five consisting of Mr. Tisdale, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Huckelberry, Mr. Madison, and myself ; and it has been suggested by the other members of that committee that I present some suggestions therein in reference to the question of the leasing of oil and natural-gas lands in the Creek and Cherokee nations. Primarily, I will say that I don't know what range the discussion has taken at Vinita and here, having only come into the room at the close of the first discussion of the subject. The law under which oil and gas leases are taken in this jurisdic- tion is very simple and only contains one paragraph practically, and that is in the Creek and Cherokee agrements of 1901 and 1902. I will read from the Creek agreement on page 1. What I purpose to read from is the act of Congress of July 26, 1902, commonly known as the " Creek agreement," and is as follows (reading same) . Now the same provision which I have read from that act is contained in an act of Congress of about the same date which is known as the " Agreement with the Cherokee Indians," exactly the same language being used— "And leases for mineral purposes may also be made with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, and not otherwise." That is the only law there is in this country upon the subject of leasing for min- eral purposes, and under that general provision and under these plenary powers the Secretary of the Interior has prescribed all the lease forms, all the rules and regulations, and all the laws that there has been in reference to the matter, and we have sought to comply with these rules and regulations relative to the leasing of land of allottees for mineral purposes. I suppose the purpose of the commit- tee is to have circumstances from us as to these questions in regard to which we are not entirely satisfied. In the first instance, taking the lease which is now in force and which was prescribed by the regula- tions of March, 1906, and became effective June 15, 1906, I will dis- cuss the features which will result as objectionable, and I will take FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 599 them in the order in which they will occur in the lease. The first one is — "And the lessee shall pay in yearly payments at the end of each year $150 royalty on each gas-producing well which he shall use. The lessor shall have the free use of gas for lighting and warming his residence on the premises. It is further agreed, that a failure on the part of a lessee to use a gas-producing Avell where the same can not be reasonably utilized at the rate so prescribed shall not work a forfeiture of this lease so far as the same relates to mining oil, but if the lessee desire to retain gas-producing privileges he shall pay a roy- alty of -$50 per annum, in advance, on each gas-producing well not utilized, the first payment to become due and to be made within thirty days from the date of the discovery of gas." Now, the objection that we make to that provision, in short, is this : That if the purpose of drilling is for the production of natural gas, undoubtedly none of these wells will remain unused; if, on the contrary, the drilling is for the purpose of producing oil, and incidental to that gas is produced at such a place and under such conditions that it can not be used by the person who discovers it, then he ought not to be required to pay this $50 annually in order that he immediately might receive the benefit from the sale of the gas. It may be, and in very many instances it is certain, that he can not receive any benefit from it. He was drilling for oil and struck gas. He did not expect gas, he wanted oil and ex- pected to strike it, but it is a misfortune to him that he struck gas that he can not make any use of, that he can not sell to anyone, and yet be compelled to pay this $50 a year in order to retain control over it pending the time when he may be able to dispose of the gas and get some return for all the money he has expended in sinking the well. That the lessees should be required to pay the $150 per annum for the gas they use we think is entirely right, and we have no objection to it, for, as I say, Ave think it is entirely right and proper. To illustrate, take this situation : Here is a man Avho is drilling for oil. He is in a district where he has reason to expect oil. He has no reason to expect he will strike gas. He drills his well and instead of striking oil he strikes gas. He is in an oil district. It is not a gas district. There is no market for his gas. He is remote from the pipe lines of a natural-gas company, and there is no place where he can sell it. The time may come when he can sell the gas from that well, but he don't know when it will come. Now is it reasonable, pending that time that he should be required to cough up $50 each and every year in advance while he is waiting for the development of a situation which may never develop? Yet that is the position this lease puts the lessee in who is unfortunate enough to bring in a gas well under these circumstances. He has to do it every year, and if he fails to do it for one single year he has forfeited that well. It is a penal provision, for if he strikes that gas well that is no earthly use or profit to him, it is for the time being and for all time, for aught he knows to the contrary, a sort of white elephant on his hands — he has to pay $50 yearly to retain control of it, and if he allows, wan- tonly, the gas to escape, he is penalized in the sum of $10 a day for that — so there is no danger oi that being done. If he wants to get back the money he has expended and disbursed on that lease, he must pay out $50 a year for that gas well, which by no possibility he can use under the conditions I state. There is nothing about the situation which would induce him to conserve the gas or save the well from 600 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. destruction. Instead of encouraging that condition, apparently the opposite end is provided for — there is a very strict penalty provided for that. Now, if in addition to the failure to find oil, after the expenditure of the money necessary to sink that well, he strikes the gas well, which instead of being a benefit is a positive burden and detriment for the reasons stated, and on top of all that he is forced to pay out $50 a year to retain any possible advantage that may flow from it later on in the way of his ability to dispose of it to someone who can use and pay him for the gas; and so the man is positively punished for discovering gas which he can't sell. If he don't pay the $50 a year, this gas well reverts to the Indian — at least it does not become the property of the lessee. Now, what can the Indian do with this gas well where there is no market for it whatever? He is no better off with it than he was without it. He can't sell it, or trade it, or do anything with it. It is his, and he may not exercise the care that the lessee must preserve not to waste it. He may waste it, for he is under no obligation to preserve it, for there is nothing that re- quires him to preserve it, and owing to the illusory character of natural gas, if that well is allowed to waste, it not only injures it, but it injures and finally destroys all the wells around it, for its waste is their waste, so that when a market becomes available the gas is gone or so reduced in volume that it is comparatively worthless. The Chairman. What remedy do you suggest for this condition? Mr. Zevely. I suggest that the lessee be required to pay only for what he uses, and that on doing that and using the best efforts and means for conserving the gas against the time when there will be a market for it is all that ought to be required of any one. It is a regu- lation of the Department, and not this statute, that makes this condi- tion. The Chairman. Why do you not go there and not to us? Mr. Zevely. Well, that is why I call your attention specifically to this law. It is a matter that can be regulated specifically by legisla- tion. You have gone to work and clothed the Secretary of the Inte- rior with plenary powers and you vest in him the power to make all the laws pertaining to this matter, and these rules and regulations and forms of leases, etc., which he prescribes, are in effect the same as statutory enactment on the part of Congress. The Secretary, as far as all these things are concerned, is the law-making power down here in the Indian Territory pertaining to these matters. The Chairman. What is your complaint ? Mr. Zevely. I thought — I was under the impression — that I had stated our complaint very plainly, but if I haven't, I will try and do so. Plainly speaking, we feel that such unlimited powers should not be vested in any cabinet officer of the Government in the administra- tion of the affairs of this Territory. We feel that nearly all the troubles and afflictions that we have suffered in the past and are still suffering come from what we consider this unwise investure of such extraordinary power in a single officer, which practically gives him the power to legislate upon all the affairs of any consequence in this Territory. Our Government is democratic in its form, and we feel that it is practically a going back to one-man power, which violates every precedent and tradition of our national life. Senator Brandegee. Have you ever presented this matter to the Department ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 601 Mr. Zevely. No, sir. The Chairman. I think you are right on this point. Now, what do you consider this $150 a year to cover ? Mr. Zevely. That is an arbitrary price fixed on each well by the Secretary, by which he has decreed that every man who is so unfor- tunate as to strike a gas well when he expected to strike an oil well shall pay the price of the gas that he uses from it. It don't matter how little or how much he uses, the price is just $150 — no more, no less — and you can't help yourself. The Chairman. Well, now, are you not aware of the fact that a different construction from that is placed on it by the Secretary ? Mr. Zevely. Placed on that regulation ? The Chairman. Yes sir. Are you not aware of the fact that the Secretary places an entirely different construction on that regulation ? Are you not aware of the fact that the Secretary construes it to mean that the $150 is the price that you pay for the gas from the well when it is used for operating that lease ; and that if it is used for commercial purposes then an additional percentage of some sort on the product of it is held to be due, dependent on the production of the well ? Mr. Zevely. I don't know that. The Chairman. I just wanted to get your idea of it. Mr. Zevely. That is not what it says. If that is what is meant it ought to be so stated. Here is the contract between the parties, and I take it that something can't be injected into it that is not already written into it, even by the Secretary of the Interior. I take it that the contract as it is would have to be respected The Chairman. There is no disputing that. Mr. Zevely. I am not advised that he did that or construed it that way, because here is another provision in this lease to the effect that all the natural gas for the use of the families on that lease for heating and lighting purposes shall be had free, and I hadn't any idea that the Secretary had construed it to mean that it was only for that purpose. The Chairman. I do not know whether he has construed it that way officially or not. I am not advised as to that, but he has con- strued it that way unofficially. Mr. Zevely. Well, it is immaterial to my argument whether he has or not, for I only sought at this time to direct attention to what I deemed the unreasonableness and unfairness of a provision which re- quires a man to put $50 each year to retain control of something which is of no earthly use to him, and no possible source of revenue, but which' at some undeterminable time in the future may prove to be of value. Senator Brandegee. You can see that it is a very difficult matter to handle. You can see — at any rate I can see — that it is almost posi- tively necessary to place the authority and power in the hands of some one to prescribe these conditions; otherwise it is necessary that Congress prescribe every condition of a lease, or give some one else the power to do it. That is what I consider a self-evident proposition. Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir; but Senator Brandegee. And as Congress is a large body, and large bodies proverbially move slowly, you might want some changes made that it might be difficult to secure ; therefore possibly some time you might find your last condition worse than your present, S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 39 602 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Zevely. That is true, but it is hard for us to figure out how it could be worse. Now, I would think that Congress might, if it con- tinues to exercise supervision over this mining question, have some one official vested with authority to have original and limited jui'isdiction in all these matters and construe them and go sufficiently into detail regarding them — as we do in the courts — to be able to intelligently diagnose the conditions and apply the remedy in each individual case. I admit that there has to be some general law or authority gov- erning all these matters — ^something general in its character; but at the same time there can not be any hard and fast rule or regulation made that will adapt itself to every case that may arise. There will constantly be cases coming up that need special treatment. I think if there was some central authority of that kind with limited original jurisdiction and with such statutory regulation as would direct him to proceed and how far to proceed — something after the fashion in which courts are directed how to proceed in the case of minors and deceased persons. Senator Beandegeb. All that can be turned over to the Secretary. Mr. Zevely. I understand that. I am not complaining of it par- ticularly ; I am calling your attention to the fact. It could work all right, but the trouble is that it don't. The Chairman. The trouble with your suggestion is that if it was done it would necessitate a change in every Department of the Gov- ernment ; it would necessitate a special tribunal in every Department. Mr. Zevely. I can't see how it would affect every Department of the Government excepting when you might touch some special inter- est which that Department might have under control. The Chairman. I mean that your complaint on this subject and the application of your remedy would effect every Department of the Government, and if applied to one would have to be applied to all. Mr. Zevely. Well, it might do so. I am willing to say this and admit this — that if the legislation of Congress confers such wide powers on some executive officer there certainly ought to be some judicial authority to supervise and review the decisions of that officer, for he is granted not only legislative power but discretionary judicial powers also. He sits there as a court with power of judge, jury, and all in one, without any power of appeal from his judgment or decree. Senator Long. Do you mean that the Secretary in making these regulations or in preparing this form of lease should not require this payment of $60 for the wells that are not used ? Mr. Zevely. Well, I am not making a suggestion that Congress should suggest to the Secretary of the Interior what to do or what he should do. Senator Long. Do you want us to use our influence with the Sec- retary ? Mr. Zevely. Not at all. Senator Long. Well, what do you want? Mr. Zevely. I understood, I have understood all along that the purpose of the committee in coming down here to the Indian Ter- ritory and holding these hearings was to get at the grounds of ob- jection that we have to these propositions ; that the purpose, in fact, was to give every person, so far as possible, an opportunity to present any grievance or trouble he had to the committee in so far as it related to conditions here or the government of the Territory. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 603 The Chairman. You are right in that, for that is our purpose. Senator Long. With a view of legislation? Mr. Zevely.' Well, that might follow, but we have not had the pre- sumption to suggest to Senators of the United States remedial legislation, because being legislators and being on the ground and hearing what people had to say we have believed that they would go away from the Territory knowing more about what legislation was necessary to correct conditions than we could possibly suggest. Now, it has been suggested by one of the committee that if Congress attempts to regulate this matter it will have to enact legislation that will have to go into the minutiae of every detail of making a lease. Of course we don't expect Congress to go into the matter of legislation to the extent of fixing every little minute detail, but we do expect that Congress by appropriate legislation can fix the broad essentials and not leave so much to one man. Senator Long. You mean by that that Congress has left too much to a department? Mr. Zevely. Well, that is what our experience down here teaches us. Senator Beandegee. Why have you not presented this to the Secre- tary? Mr. Zevely. Well, I don't say that it has not been presented to him. We have not had much time to present it. This is a new thing. This proposition was not in the lease, you must remember, before June 15 of this year. It is a new provision in the lease. It is an entirely new provision in the lease and has only been there since June 15 of this year. Before that time it was in the regulation and not in the lease. Senator Long. It is not a very serious one, is it — not a very serious proposition ? Mr. Zevely. You mean this clause about paying $50 a year in advance to retain possession of a gas well? Senator Long. Yes, sir. Mr. Zevely. Well, I guess you would think so if you were in the business and had 50 or 60 of that kind of wells. If you were drilling for oil and happened to strike a gas district, as they do sometimes, and struck a whole lot of these gas wells, I guess that you would think a cash payment of $50 a year each would be a serious propo- sition when you are absolutely without a market for your gas. I refer now to wells where there is no market for the gas, for this clause is without discrimination. It says that that must be paid regardless of conditions or circumstances. Now, I don't know whether the attention of the Secretary has been called to that. There is so many things down here, little minor matters, that could be dilated on, but I won't detain you with them. I will strike at the essentials, the matters that we conceive are real and substantial burdens. The Chairman. I think his attention has been called to it. Mr. Zevely. I think Mr. Franchot, the secretary of the Mid- Continent Association, presented it to him, but I was not present and I don't know it. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are the instances very numerous where this occurs, where in drilling for oil gas is obtained and no oil ? Mr. Zevely. Well, it occurs quite frequently. It is a matter of not uncommon occurrence. There is very little of the natural gas in this territory being marketed, and naturally this condition may become 604 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. very serious if this proviso is not done away with or modified in some manner. People in a great many instances are prospecting for oil, and they expect to strike oil and don't wish to get gas, knowing there is no market for it. A great many of these people are men of limited means, and it is a serious matter with them if they get a gas well instead of an oil well. It is true that the time may come when the gas well would be as valuable as an oil well, but in every one of these instances, if he desires to retain possession of it and reap the financial gain that the future may have in store, the Secretary requires that he shall put, up $50 each year in advance for each well and so you see in the case of a large number of wells it becomes actually oppressive. If there were a market, or means of transporting the gas to the mar- ket, there would be no particular objection to it. Now, so much for that. The next provision which I desire to discUss is this : The party of the second part further agrees to carry on operations in a work- manlike manner to the fullest possible extent, unavoidable casualties excepted. Now, my uiaderstanding about that is that " the fullest possible ex- tent " is too strict a requirement to have in there when you consider that it does not take into consideration the question of whether there is any market for oil, if oil is discovered, or whether it can be pro- duced at a price or, I should say, at a cost which is less than the price for which they may sell it ; it does not take into account that factor at all, for it may cost more to produce oil than it is worth after pro- duction, and 1 believe that undoubtedly that will appeal to you as a condition that ought to be modified. The conditions down here are that the development and production have kept so far ahead of the facilities for taking care of it that a great many oil wells have to be kept shut down. There are no pipe lines nor rankage to care for more than one-half the production, and that part that is in a measure be- ing taken care of is holding down its production to the end that it will not have to increase its tankage facilities. Oil is very low in price too, and that is another factor that is holding down the pro- duction, for the oil men are optimistic and are hoping for better l^rices in the future. I think it is simply ridiculous to attempt to force an operator to produce oil at 39 cents, but that is what the effect of an enforcement of this proviso would be. We think this is a burdensome provision, and that it ought to be modified. Senator Long. Read that provision again, please? Mr. Zbvely. The party of the second part further agrees to carry on opera- tions in a worlimanlilie manner to the fullest possible extent, unavoidable casualties excepted. Senator Clark, of Montana. "Well, would a non-compliance with that provision work a forfeiture? Mr. Zevely. Well, there is a further provision, as I will show you later, that it is within the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, which, if invoked, might work a forfeiture. Anything he construes to be a failure of the lessee to comply with any of the terms of the lease authorizes him to forfeit and terminate the lease on ten days' notice, and the lessee has originally obligated himself not to test the right of the Secretary to do so in court. Senator Long. This is the latest form ? Mr. Zea-ely. Yes, sir; this is the form of June 15, 190G; that is FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 605 when it became eifective and it is the latest thing that is out. Now I assume that further discussion of the harshness of that clause is not necessary. It seems to me that it is apparent at a glance. The committee I think will understand that it may work a hardship, not only on the lessee, but on the lessor as well, for if the lease is de- veloped and oil produced that can't be sold it is a positive detriment ; nor is it any advantage to produce it and sell it at the prices that prevail now — it would be better to test' the land and show the fact that oil exists and stop right there and wait for better prices, which means a profit to the operator and a better royalty to the lessor. Of course you understand that there is no liability on the part of the lessee to pay royalty before the oil is marketed ; but there is nothing to be gained in producing oil and holding it in storage and waiting for a market. As a matter of fact oil deteriorates in quality rap- idly up to a certain point after it leaves the ground and is held in storage, and that means a corresponding decrease in its value. The oil may have been taken out of the ground, but it must be sold before the lessor or allottee receives his royalty. Senator Brandegee. A representative of the chamber of commerce of Vinita handed in a copy of this lease and said that it was restrict- ing the development of the oil fields down here. Mr. Zevely. I would be glad to answer any question you or any of the Senators desire to ask at any time. Now, the next proposition that we object to is this — It is mutually understood and agreed that this indenture of lease shall in all respects be subject to the rules and regulations heretofore, or that may hereafter be lawfully prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, relative to oil and gas leases in the Cherokee Nation, and that this lease, or any interest therein, shall not by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or the use thereof directly or indirectly be sublet, assigned, or transferred without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior first obtained, etc. That is the same provision as in the Creek Nation^ and I have read it as it appears in the lease itself. Now the objection to that pro- vision is this — that whenever a contractual relation is entered into the parties to the contract ought to know its terms and all its terms, and ought to know that the contract would not be liable to be varied afterwards at the whim or by the caprice, or in the judgment or wis- dom of one party to the lease. In other words, the contract should be so fully considered before it is entered into that these changes would not be necessary ; and certainly no changes ought to be allowed to be made in it afterwards without the consent of both the parties to it; no change should be permitted after the contract is entered into unless both parties concur in it and agree to it or them. Now, to illustrate what I mean by that, and how the Secretary may do it. When this form of lease was prescribed in June, 1906, there was prescribed at the same time a new form of application, which is called Form B, and a new form of blank certificate which is called Form C. At the time this lease form was prescribed, and this appli- cation and certificate forms were prescribed, there was pending before the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Af- fairs and the Indian agent together, for approval, several thousand leases. There was a great number of leases which up to that time had been approved by these gentlemen — that is to say, the leases had been approved, but the bonds for their performance had not yet been approved at the time these forms were put in force. 606 :five civilized tbibes. When these forms were prescribed, the Secretary then prescribed in his rules and regulations that all leases then pending, either for his approval or for approval here, should not be approved, but kept open, and that the bond should not be approved until the applicants for leases had filled out and sigTied this Form B and until the bank officer made this certificate Form C. Now, this Form B absolutely and totally changed the tenor and purpose of the lease or leases that were theretofore entered into by putting in many provisions that were not in them before, and we contend that it is an arbitrary and unjust assumption of authority that does so. I think it will appeal to you, gentlemen, that way — it will appeal to any fair-minded man as being a most arbitrary and unjust usurpation of power to com- ( pel these alterations after a contract is entered into. There is no such a thing as a meeting of the minds of the parties and a merging in the contract of the agreement. To illustrate: Among these pro- visions so injected in the lease is one that the lessee agrees that the Secretary may vacate that lease at any time that he pleases without any agreement or consultation with the lessee, thus placing it within the caprice or whim of the Secretary to do so at will, or for any rea- son, fancied or otherwise — all that the Secretary being required to do is to give the lessee ten days notice of his intention to vacate the lease. Now, why that ten days' notice was put in there is a matter of conjecture. He could just as readily, and with as much justice, have said 'that it could be terminated at his will. I suppose that the Secretary put it in that form so that the man would know that his finish would come in ten days. The Chairman. He could not do anything in the ten days. Mr. Zbvely. He could say his prayers. It would give him time to prepare The Chairman. How give him time to prepare? Mr. Zevely. He could say his prayers. He would have time for that, but not much time for other preparation. That is all he could do. He couldn't take any steps for his protection. He couldn't file anything in court, for he has agreed not to do it. There was thou- sands of leases pending at that time, when these rules, regulations, and forms are jjut in effect, and these leases had all cost money every time. The lessees had paid out their money to these Indians in the way of bonuses, some of them paying large sums for them, relying that they would get a lease on certain fixed conditions and terms, and here come these changes and catch them, as it were, be- tween heaven and earth, and a lot of new conditions are imposed which were never contemplated by the lessee in his original calcula- tions. I supose you know that it is very difficult to get any of these Indian allottees to sign any pajjer at all unless you pay them for it. The rule is to pay them something for everything these people sign; and there has been such keen competition for these oil leases that the price of bonuses have risen, and no one knows it better than an Indian. An Indian may not know the value of his land, but just try to get a lease from him on some of his land, and you will see that he has a pretty good idea of what its value is — generally an inflated idea, though. Now then, these people who had these leases hung up, as I say, were put in this attitude on the question of the power or right of the Secretary to change these regulations in a manner that would affect, or vary, the terms of a contract already entered into. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 607 These persons in many instances, as I have stated, had spent large sums of money in procuring tliese contracts. They had spent large sums of money to make these contracts effectual, the only executory condition being the approval of the Secretary of the Interior; and now, while that is pending, he comes in — the Secretary does — with a whole lot of new rules, regulations, and conditions, which he requires the lessee to accept before his lease will be finally approved ; and the lessee has to accept these provisions, or lose his lease and all the money that he has paid out to the allottee for it. He has to agree that these changes will be made in the lease before the lease will be approved, and I submit that that is not fair, or right, or just, viewed from any point. No one will have the hardihood to say that it is just or right for anyone to impose conditions, under such circumstances, which were never contemplated when the agreement was first made. It is an arbitrary exercise of power, as arbitrary as could be exercised by any potentate this world has ever seen, and we object to it and protest against it most emphatically. We insist that these leases pending at that time should have been approved and confirmed in accordance with their terms and intent and in accordance with the rules and regulations in force at that time ; but the Secretary decreed otherwise, and insisted that all these additional terms and conditions should be put in that lease absolutely. And so we feel, gentlemen, that the clause in the leases which provides that the regulations that may thereafter be made, which change or vary the terms or conditions of the lease, be not inserted in it. We object to that provision. Now follows the next provision, as follows : And that this lease or any interest therein shall not, by working or drilling contract or otherwise, or the use thereof directly or indirectly, be sublet, assigned, or transferred without the consent of the Secretary of the Interior first had and obtained. Now, what I desire to direct the committee's attention to is the matter of this drilling contract. I was in town here and called the agent's attention — got from the agent his definition of a drilling contract, which was, I think, that the person holding the lease could contract with another person to drill a well and agree to give the lessee, or, rather, the lessee agreed to give the person drilling the well, a certain portion of the oil produced by the well, and he said that could not be done, for that would be, in effect, a transfer of the con- tract or lease without the permission of the Department. His con- struction was that that was, in effect, a transfer of the lease. Q. Such a contract that extended during the life of the lease? — ■ A. Yes, sir. Now, I don't agree with that definition of a drilling contract. To say that a drilling contract is tantamount to an assign- ment of the lease is absurd. Senator Beandegee. Why is not a drilling contract that runs through the life of the lease — a contract where the person drilling the well is to receive a certain percentage of the oil product during the life of the lease — equivalent to an assignment of the lease or a transfer of the lease ? Mr. Zevely. I don't understand that. Senator Brandegee. You say that it is not equivalent to a transfer of the lease, and now I ask you why such a contract for drilling a 608 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. well by -which the person doing the drilling is to receive a certain per cent of the oil produced for drilling the well and the lessee is to re- ceive another percentage, and the lessor another percentage; why is not such a contract the equivalent of a transfer of the lease, or why is it not in effect a transfer of the lease under conditions ? Mr. Zeverly. Well, the lessee is under bond always for the faithful performance of the terms of the lease and the conditions of that lease. The Secretary provides after the approval of the bond that accom- panies the lease that at least one well must be drilled ; and that was afterwards modified so that the time might be extended for five years on the payment of $1 per acre for each year if the lessee did not care to drill within the five years, with the further provision that the Secretary might at any time require the property to be drilled. Now, suppose a man wants to drill a well in what we call a " wildcat " district — that is, a district where no well is drilled ; and in doing so it is purely a speculative proposition; or he may have to drill in a condemned area, which is a district where wells have been drilled and no oil found. Now, your lessee is in this position — ^he must either drill one well within a year on each lease named, no matter where they may be, whether in a proven or condemned district, whether legitimate developing or purely of a speculative character, he must drill at least one well each year on each lease, or he can accept the alternative of paying a rjDyalty of $1 per annum on each acre of ground he has under lease so as to extend the time of each lease, or he must vacate and surrender it. Now, let us see how it works. Here is one person, and for the sake of illustration we will say it is Senator Clark here, who has a drilling outfit ; he has a string of tools, and you own these leases, and you have not the money to pay for this drilling, but you have the money to pay for this dollar an acre, and Senator Clark may have confidence in the fact that there is oil in that country. Now, if you own the lease, why can't you say to Senator Clark, " can't we make an arrangement for you to drill these wells, and if there is oil there the benefits that may come to all of us from finding it may be had, for j'ou can take part of it to pay you for the expense of drilling and I will get part of it for my trouble and expense that I have been to." Now, what reason is there that that kind of a contract can not be made ? That is the only way that you can develop it, and I would like to know why you can't make that contract with him by which he is to be paid a certain percentage of the oil for drilling the well, rather than pay him a certain portion of the new proceeds that you receive in the way of money from the sale of the oil that comes from that well. Senator Brandegee. Or a certain per cent of the oil? Mr. Zevely. Well, supposing he does not have anything to do with the oil. I get the money, anyhow, back, and my agreement is on the side that I will give you a part of the money received from the sale of the oil from the well. Now, I want to know what right the Sec- retary of the Interior has to interfere with that contract. What right has he to interfere with that any more than he would have to interfere with a contract where I would agree to pay you $10 a foot for drilling, when the prevailing price is $1 a foot? It certainly seems to me that he would have no right to interfere with either. It certainly seems to me that such a contract don't prove that any monopoly is going to be created. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 609 Senator Beandegee. I suppose that is what the Secretary believes. Mr. Zevely. I suppose so. Senator Brandegee. He believes that in that way Senator Clark may have contracts and practically what are, in effect, leases on more than 4,800 acres of land ? Mr. Zevely. I suppose so, but it does not make any difference what he believes. He says, " or any interest therein, shall not, by working or drilling contract or otherwise." It does not make any difference to him whether he has or not ; that is not the question. He assumes the question. He assumes that a drilling contract of that kind is tantamount to an assignment or transfer of the lease. Senator Teller. And requires his approval? Mr. Zevely. Undoubtedly. Now, my position is that there may be agreements or contracts which say they are drilling contracts that are in effect transfers or practical assignments of leases; that may be ; but it is not proper or necessary to say that all such contracts shall be barred, for that is what they amount to, and it is not proper for him to bar all such contracts because there may be one in a hun- dred that are fraudulent in that manner; and I assert that it is not proper for the Secretary of the Interior to say that if I want to have a well drilled I shall pay for it thus and so, or I shall not pay for it thus and so. I say it is my right and privilege to pay for it in whatever form I see fit and proper. It is none of his business how I do it, so long as I develop the property and comply with the terms of my lease. I believe that that is a matter that is not legally or properly within his power or jurisdiction to control. At 12 o'clock, noon, the committee took a recess till 2 p. m., when it reassembled. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Chairman. Gentlemen, there are two announcements that I desire to make at this time, and the first is in regard to the matter to which we have given our entire attention .for two evenings. It is the matter in relation to the enrollment of certain citizens in different nations of the Five Civilized Tribes. _ That. is a matter that has required a good deal of time. No satisfactory conclusion has been reached in regard to certain charges which were made in the pre- sentation of the matter. I do not see the attorneys for all of them here. I do see Mr. Rogers here, but in that connection I will say that the Department at Washington has sent an agent here for the purpose of investigating these charges, and pending that investiga- tion no further action will be taken by this committee. In regard to the particular matter jiresented by Mr. Ballinger, to wit, the right to transfer from one roll to another, the committee have conferred over the matter and decided that it can not give any further time to an examination of witnesses, but each party will be allowed to file with the committee record, documentary evidence, affidavits, or anything of that nature, all of which will be duly con- sidered by the committee, and such matter may be filed at any time from now on up to the time the committee leaves the Territory, or indeed at any time up to the time that the committee is ready to make its report to Congress. The other, announcement that I have to make is that this session this afternoon will close the work of the committee in Muskogee, and 610 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. there will be no evening session, as the committee will have to leave here this evening in order to fill their other engagements at other points in the Territory. I will therefore especially urge that every- one who has anything to present this afternoon will try and make it as concise as possible and to the point and without reiteration as far as it can be done in justice to the matter presented. If this is borne in mind the committee will appreciate it. Senator Long. Mr. Rogers, in any statement you may have to make touching the matter I would like to know what effect you give in your ruling here to section 4 of the act of 1876. I would like you to include that in your statement given, for I want to know how you construe that and what procedure you have taken under it. The Chairman. As far as the charges against public officials is concerned, the committee will take no action pending the investiga- tion by the Interior Department. In regard to the transfer from one roll to the other no further oral evidence will be heard, but either party can submit any evidence, affidavits, or anything they choose to submit between now and the time the committee reports. Now, Colonel Zevely, we are ready to hear further from you. Mr. Zevely. Gentlemen, before proceeding further with the argu- ment I am making, and in answer to a query propounded by Senator Brandegee this forenoon as to whether or not the statements I made have ever been presented to the Secretary, I find that in the month of June, immediately after these rules went into effect, a committee, consisting of Messrs. Franchot and Gumberg, were presented to the Secretary of the Interior and the President and objections were made to these new rules and regulations, and with the consent of the com- mittee I will file this letter and statement for its use. Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the next provision which I have marked in this form of lease, and which I desire to discuss, re- lates to the authority which the Secretary retains in himself to annul or vacate any contract or lease at will and without the other party having a hearing in court or elsewhere ; but in view of the fact that this matter has been presented to you very thoroughly and ably else- where, I shall not attempt to argue that question at this time, and, in fact, as far as I am concerned, I think I perhaps went into that mat- ter fully enough this forenoon. Now, the closing paragraph of this lease is as follows : If, at any time, the Secretary of the Interior, after due" notice to the parties or persons interested, determines that any persons, partnerships, or corpora- tions, has, by means of stock ownership or otherwise, directly or indirectly, ob- tained and holds interests in leases of oil and gas properties in said Territory, said leases covering in the aggregate an area more than 4,800 acres, and fur- ther finds that the property herein leased is a part of said aggregate area, then the Secretary of the Interior may cancel this lease in the same manner as pro- vided for in the case of any violation in the terms of said lease. Now, that provision in its operation would not oply affect a person who may hold stock in a corporation with reference to the additional property he acquired, but it would seem under that general provi- sion or proposition to vacate or authorize the Secretary, at his op- tion, to vacate all the leases taken by that corporation, even though this stockholder held but one share, and even though he did not dis- close to the rest of the stockholders about having this other property; and the officers in the corporation in which he has stock certainly FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 611 have not any authority or right or power to require him to dispose of the stock he has in his own name or tlie stock he has in the company. So, if the rule as arbitrarily stated should be enforced, the result is that there is no sort of title in any of these leases vested in the lessee, and the utmost that you can get out of a lease as it is now taken, and as persons engaged in the oil business must take, he gets nothing but a license to operate it, revokable at the will of the Secretary. Senator Beandegee. One provision that he agrees to abide by, which is his agreement to abide by any ruling of the Secretary, is that it makes the whole tenure of the whole thing, and all the money he has invested subject to the whim of the Secretary? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir ; it is all subject to the caprice or whim of the Secretary, and I submit that such a situation is opposed to every instinct of our institutions. It savors too strongly of an arbitrary form of government, and I submit that it should not be permitted. I tried to illustrate this morning that when this rule came in force there was pending then several thousand leases, and the applicant for a lease had to agree to these conditions or surrender the leases, and not only the leases, but all the money that he had invested as a bonus to secure the lease. Yes, sir; he had to agree to these provi- sions or surrender the lease and all the money in it by way of attor- neys' fees and bonus. Now, on the question of the transfer of these leases. That is a very serious matter. There is one provision in the contract that there shall not be any transfer. The original lease provided that there should not be any transfer except with the consent of the lessor and the Secretary of the Interior, and this "new form provides that the lease may be transferred by the sole approval of the Secretary of the Interior, thereby relieving the lessee of the necessity of inquiring of the lessor whether he cares to have it transferred or not. My idea about the question of transfer is that perhaps there ought to be a very liberal rule with reference to the right to transfer a lease or property of this kind without reference to the question of whether the party making the transfer makes anything out of it or not. My idea is that it is nobody's business whether he makes anything out of it or not. The same rule ought to prevail in transfers of this kind that prevails in the transfer of any other property. It concerns no one whether he is making anything or what he is making out of it. The rule in regard to that is very stringent and ought to be relaxed so that the transfer can be made more safely or easy. Senator Bkandegee. Do you agree that it is a good policy on the part of the Secretary to demand and insist that all these transfers of leases be first approved by him, in order to keep these oil fields from falling into the hands of the same party — that is, to keep out combi- nations and allow individual effort in its development rather than to permit it to get under the control of one corporation or person? Mr. Zevely. I will admit that I believe it was the purpose of the Secretary in making this rule or law to secure the best result he could for the Indians in this country. I will admit that that was probably the idea he had in mind, for he fancied he saw that the country was getting into the hands or would get into the hands of some monopoly, and I am unable to say why it is that a company shall not have as many leases as it wants or can secure or can control, so long as the 612 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. power resides in the Secretary of the Interior to say to a man or a corporation you shall not have any lease there. Senator Beandegbe. Then I take it from what you say that you think the 4,800 acre limitation proposition is an unwise one? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir ; I do. There is no reason why the limitation should be fixed at 4,800 acres unless it is good to have a rule in that respect beyond which you must not trespass. Now if a person takes 4,800 acres and he does not develop it he is obliged to pay a dollar a year per acre for what he does not, develop, and in addition to that the Secretary under his general power is not obliged to let any man or corporation have 4,800 acres. Pie don't have to let them have anything imless he sees fit. He has the power absolutely to say what they shall have or what they shall not have. He may say, for exam- ple, to an applicant, " You already have a thousand acres of land, and I think from your experience and ability that that is all you should have — it is all you are able to handle, and I don't think you ought to have any more, and decline to approve the lease," and on the other hand a person may have the money and the experience both, and he may be given a wide latitude. It all rests with the Secretary after all. Senator Long. So you think this effort of the Secretary to prevent one company from getting control of the whole field is unwise? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir ; in the interest of the allottee I should say it is, and it is only in the interest of the allottee that the Secretary is working. He is not supposed to be interested in any one else. Senator Beandegee. Is not the purpose of these regulations to pre- vent the gobbling up of this oil territory and the monopolizing of it the purpose and object of the Secretary? Mr. Zevely. I will be frank about that and say that I understand and believe it is. Senator Beandegee. Now, if it is a wise policy to make such regu- lations as will continue these separate and several oil fields in the hands of very many persons, if the Secretary does not adopt and put in force such rules and regulations calculated to accomplish that purpose, is it not probable, and in view of what has occurred else- where, it is not inevitable, that ultimately some great corporation will control the whole of it; and would not then these very people who are objecting to these rules and regulations be clamoring against these restrictions, claiming that thej^ have prevented the development of the oil fields — would they not be coming forward then and claim- ing that the octopus had gobbled up the whole country and claim that if some such rules and regulations had been put in operation and enforced, such a result would not have been accomplished? Is that not correct ? Mr. Zevely. Well, I don't know. This '' octopus," as you call it, now comes pretty near actually controlling it. They have actual control of what you shall receive for your oil, and that comes mighty near controlling the whole situation. Through their pipe lines and tankage, and facilities for handling it they practically have control over it now, so as a matter of fact the producers are just about as much in its power now as if it owned all the land. If the Standard Oil Company had bent its energies to securing control of the wheat lands or the wheat industry with as much energy and ability as they have applied to the control of the oil business and production, they FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 613 would now control the production of wheat and the price paid for it just as effectually as they do the oil industry. Senator Beandbgee. Well, they do not own the land ? Mr. ^EVELY. No, sir; but through their pipe lines, tankage, and other facilities they are able to control the price of the oil. Senator Bkandegee. It is possible to build other pipe lines, is it not? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. It is not possible to discover new oil fields, is it? Mr. Zevely. Well, they may. Senator Beandegee. New pipe lines could be built? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir. The only pipe line down here now is the Standard Oil Company's lines, and that is an air-tight monopoly. If any one doubts it, just let them go up against it once and see what happens them. Senator Beandegee. The fact that the pipe lines are a monopoly does not indicate that the oil fields should be in the hands of a pipe line? Mr. Zevely. Well, I don't know about that. It is a condition with us down here, not a theory. Senator Beandegee. Why is it there are not more pipe lines ? Mr. Ze\'ely. Well, I don't know that either. I suppose the reason is that we have not been able to induce sufficient capital to invest in them. It has always seemed to me that as a financial proposition it would be a good thing, but evidently capital thinks otherwise. There was an effort made, of which I have personal knowledge, to have a pipe line built from this field to the Gulf or down to Port Arthur. The proposition to build it was submitted by some capitalists of Pittsburg, Pa. — the Mellins, I believe, were the parties in company with some English capitalists — and the proposition to us was if we could get together a sufficient amount of acreage that would patronize it so as to insure a sufficient volume of production that they would build it. Senator Beandegee. And the deal fell through ? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir. Senator Tellee. Does not everything that is done in the way of not enough to sustain two lines of pipe in the opinion of capitalists ? Mr. Zevely. Well, I don't know. They backed out for some rea- son. My opinion is that there is plenty of oil for two, but probably they thought differently. Senator Teller. Does not every thing that is done in the way of developing the country tend to get rid of that monopoly ? Mr. Zevely. No, sir; everything that tends to retard the develop- ment of the country and retard the production tends to foster that monopoly. Senator Claek, of Montana. Well, if that be the fact, the converse of that proposition is true, is it not ? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir. I believe if the production of oil was fos- tered instead of being retarded that the production would be so great that the other pipe line would be speedily forthcoming. Senator Clark. Well, under the existing circumstances it certainly won't come until there is a demand for it by another pipe line ? Is that not true ? 614 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir ; that is true, too. Now I wish to suggest the allotment question with reference to the natural-gas proposition. I know that a proposition was presented to the Interior Department that if certain persons would be allowed to drill — that is, authorized to drill — a certain large area of this field for gas purposes, so it could be demonstrated that gas in large and permanent quantities existed down here, that pipe lines would be laid down through this territory and north of here sufficient to convey the gas to Kansas City and St. Louis and such other commercial centers as would consume the gas produced in this field. Now, that proposition was submitted to the Secretary and he refused to permit that to be done under present conditions. He suggested that if the persons desiring to drill for gas, and should discover it, would put a meter on each well in the field and account for the number of feet of gas the meter registered, and paid a certain royalty per thousand feet on the gas taken from the well — ^he said if they would agree to do that that he would then consider the proposition and let them acquire as much interest in gas lands as they wanted to acquire; but the persons making the proposition were experienced in gas, and they said it was wholly im- practicable, for the meters would range in cost from $600 to $2,500 each, and anj'way it had been tried before and found to be impracti- cable, even if the cost of the meters did not make it impracticable. They said that the idea of paying an arbitrary and fixed price of so much per well had been followed in other localities and had been found to work satisfactorily to the owners of natural-gas lands, both in Kansas and in Pennsylvania, and other localities where natural gas had been produced. As it is now natural gas can't be utilized at all unless you can get some concern with the capital to put in pipe lines from here to Kansas City or St. Louis or other great centers of con- sumption, and no one will undertake it unless they have assurances that they can drill anywhere from two hundred and fifty thousand to three hundred thousand of acres of land. You may get a gas well here and a good one, and some of the strongest gas wells in the world have been developed in this country, but they are sporadic, and while gas has been proven to exist over wide areas of country there has been no systematic development done for it, and under the circum- stances no one with sufficient capital will come in here and take their chances on the supply unless they have the power to test large areas of land for the purpose of determining the quantity and permanence of the supply, and you can't, therefore, get the capital to invest in a pipe line; therefore the allottees down here, while we are confident that there is practically an exhaustless supply of it, the allottees don't get any benefit from it at all, and the gas, or practically all of it, is not being used, for what is used here in the Territory don't amount to anything in comparison with the quantity we already know of. Now on the question of leasing by allottees whose restrictions have been removed. They are the class that come in directly under the act of 1904, 1 think it was, which provided that certain persons could alienate without restrictions and other persons could not do so except through the Secretary of the Interior by securing first his permission. Now that word " alienate " has been construed strictly by the Secre- tary. We all know what the dictionary definition is, and it does not mean anything in this connection excepting to sell the fee according to the view of the Secretary, and in this instance the greater does not FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 615 include the lesser, and it does not include the right to sell or to mort- gage or anything further' than to dispose of the fee. Now that is the construction that is placed on that law by the Department, and the consensus of opinion among good lawyers that I have talked with on the subject is that it is a strange construction of that law. I think it would be wise of Congress if it would say what that word " alien- ate " means wherever it occurs in that law, for it would let us know just what is meant by it. The construction that is placed on it now, we think, violates every rule of construction and experience, and we think it is a matter that should be defined by enactment that would leave no doubt as to what the intention is. We want to know our rights and that is all. As it is now, the Department forbids us to drill under the terms of a lease entered into with a party whom we think is free to make that lease. The freedmen, whose land was given to them without restriction, can't enter into that kind of a lease, and the same is true of the freedmen — I mean the full bloods — who can't alienate their allotments at all. The Chairman. Tlfty did not apply that rule to a white man who has an allotment? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir; I understand that that same rule has been applied to the intermarried whites in the Indian nation — in the Cher- okee Nation, I should say. They may sell the fee, but they can't lease it to anyone else or mortgage it, or sell any part of it. Senator Clark of Montana. That is the interpretation the Secre- tary puts on it ? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir. Senator Clark of Montana. That is a strict interpretation, indeed, of the word. Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir; we think an unwarranted interpretation. Q. He can sell the fee, but he can't lease it or mortgage it? — A. Yes, sir; that is the way the Department construes it. Senator Teller. The Supreme Court said in the Union Pacific case, where they were required to sell in a given time or dispose of it, that the mortgaging of it was a compliance with that condition or requirement. Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir. Q. A mortgage is a sale subject to redemption? — A. Yes, sir. Now, I don't know that the matter of requiring a financial showing before the Department in regard to these leases has been gone into before the committee. Senator Teller. Yes, sir ; it has. Mr. Zevely. By the agent ? Senator Teller. Yes, sir. Mr. Zevely. I heard the last part of the agent's statement this morning to the effect that that rule was now not being rigidly en- forced. Now, I wish to say that, so far as my experience has gone, they require any lease, no matter how small it may be — no matter how small the area — whether 10 acres or more — it had to be accom- panied by a check for $5,000 before it would be considered, and so on until eight leases were presented by the same party, when a total amount of $40,000 would have to be shown to be in bank for the pur- pose of developing that property, and that when that was done that leases might be presented on that showing on up to the maximum of 616 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 4,800 acres. I understood Mr. Kelsey to say that they were changing that now. The Chairman. Mr. Kelsey says that it has not been in operation for over a year. Mr. Zevely. Well, I know of instances where it has been complied with in that time. Now, a further proposition with reference to, the character of this lease question as it is now being held by mere license of the Secretary of the Interior. Of .course, to a stranger who exam- ines one of these leases it is of no value at all, for if it is given to a corporation the stock of that corporation is not negotiable, practi- cally; it ceases totally to be of any value as a security on which to raise money with which to proceed in the development of this prop- erty — there is not a bank in the country that would loan on it as collateral — and, in short, you have your good money in the concern and it may be destroyed at the whim of the Secretary of the Interior. Now, that may appear to be pretty strong, but that is just what it amounts to. And so it is if you go to outside places for the purpose of procuring capital to develop these, or help j»u to carry them, the rule of the Secretary that you have to drill in a certain time and in a certain way, and if you don't you are penalized — all these things or provisions of the lease really deprive you of the ability or power to comply with its terms. Q. Well, do you say that in practical operations no one will loan any money on this stock as collateral secruity? — A. No, sir; the ' stock has no value at all, unless it be to some one who has developed property or knows that it is valuable. Now, I have here — but I will not burden the committee by going into it — but I have here a com- plete showing of all the papers that are necessary to be filed with an application for the approval of a lease from a full-blood Indian to a corporation. Now, if you desire to know what it is you can look this over and rely on the fact that it is absolutely straight and correct. It is for a lease from a full-blood Indian to a corporation, for that is the lease that requires more papers than any other, and if upon looking over these papers and the requirements, technical and other- wise, that are required you do not come to the conclusion that the lawyer who prepares them and can get them all straight earns his fee for doing the work — well, I won't say any more. A lease from one individual requires fewer papers than a lease from a minor to an individual, that is next ; and then from a full blood to a corporation, that requires the most of all; in that latter instance a great many papers are required to be filed. Now, I am about through, but there is one thing I wish to sug- gest to you, gentlemen, and it is this: That after a lease and the accompanying papers are filed with the agent here the lease or any other of the papers can not be withdrawn either for correction or anything else, and if you have to make a correction in a lease, such as the supplying of a name or a misdescription in the lease, you have to get a power of attorney from the lessor to make that correction, or have him come here in person and come into the agent's office and make it himself. The Chairman. Does that refer to anything other than the lease? Mr. Zevely. Yes, sir; it refers to any paper that is filed — they are all treated alike, as far as that goes. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 617 '' Q. Does your man want another bonus when that is done? — A. Yes, sir; frequently he will want money. If he is a full blood he will want itevery time. They won't do anything without money. Q. That is the custom down here? — A. Yes, sir. Usually you can't get any paper signed without a bonus. Q. And does that rule refer to your financial showing? — A. It applies to everything; like the laws of the Modes and Persians, it is without exception. Q. Now, does that rule against withdrawing papers apply to your financial showing? — A. To everything. Q. And if you find that you Avant to make or have to make some addenda to some paper that has been filed, do I understand you to say that before you can do that you have to secure the presence of the lessor or his consent before that can be done? — A. Well, I don't know about that. I Avould not like to say positively. I don't think it goes to that extent — no; I am not quite sure about that. I will find out. Is- Mr. Givens here? Hoav far does that rule go, Mr. Huckleberry ? Mr. Huckleberry. No, sir; it does not apply to that. Mr. GivENS. Well, that is my recollection, too — that it does not go to that extent. Now, the rule heretofore has been 4;hat a bond must be filed with each lease^or I should say the rule has been that a bond for each lease must be filed within sixty days after the approval of the lease. These bonds range from a thousand dollars up The Chairman. How much? A. These bonds range from a thousand dollars up ; the lowest bond is for a thousand dollars, and from that on up to $2,000; and surety company bonds are required, and they cost from $5 to $20.50 each. A recent ruling says that these bonds must accompany the lease and papers; therefore now the lessee must provide this bond before the lease is acted on by the Secretary, and of course he has to pay the surety companj^ for it, so the money is gone just the same if the lease is not approved. Senator Clark of Montana. That was done, as was stated here this morning, to facilitate matters? — A. I think that is probably true, Senator. Now, I believe the only other proposition that I care to suggest is this : An inquiry was made this morning as to what remedy I had to suggest with reference to the power exercised by the Secre- tary of the Interior and the arbitrary power or manner that char- acterizes the exercise of that power. Now, I don't want any of you to imagine for a moment that he ought to be shorn of all power. Not for a moment would I desire that. He ought to exercise some power here — there is not a place in America where it is more nec- essary at times ; but I do suggest that in regard to the matter of this leasing of oil lands and mineral lands and the removal of restrictions, etc., he ought to select some person here or some method of doing this business. He has for a long time followed a certain method of doing it at long range, so to speak, and by this time even he ought to be satisfied that it is not satisfactory. There can be no question of the fact that it has proven neither satisfactory or beneficial to the people down here who are most concerned. It is not the people in Iowa or Kansas or Missouri or Colorado or Connecticut who are in- terested in this; it is the people right here, and I think that some attention should be paid to their protest, which you will find is pretty S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 iO 618 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. nigh universal here. The whites are not satisfied and the Indians an not satisfied — no one is satisfied. Now, gentlemen, as to the remedy I will say that so far as my view is concerned, and I think it is th( view of the committee whose spokesman and representative I am here we believe that the restrictions on licensing for mineral purpose; ought to be removed totally. Lawyers believe pretty generally thai after next June the restrictions will be off the full bloods, and thai the restrictions heretofore imposed on the alienation of surplus lancl be removed, and that that removal apply to the pledging, leasing, anc sale as well as the fee. As I said before, Ave believe that the restric> tions by operation of law, notAvithstanding the law of April 26 1906, will be removed on the full bloods in the Cherokee and Creel nations. There is some A'ariation in the time that will be, but, foi the sake of argument, consider that the last act of Congress is effect ive, and they shall not be able to alienate their homesteads for twenty one years. Now, it seems to me, gentlemen, that^some tribunal or the ground ought to be established right here on the ground Avhen the matter of removal of restrictions and alienation of land on the part of the full bloods could be considered and passed on intelligently after an examination into the merits of each application. That is i matter which we feel ought to be considered here, and not in AVash ington. I think that Congress ought to go into it deeply enough t( legislate ; that there are certain things that they can do and certair things that they can't do, just as we do noAV in the case of the estati of decedents or people in bankruptcy proceedings, and we believf this committee Avhich I represent would be glad to frame a bill alonj these lines which would meet with the approval of your committee. Senator Teller. You are acting on the theory that the last Con gress, the one just terminated, did. Mr. Zea'elt. Yes, sir ; but the mixed bloods can do as they pleas( with it. Q. AH excepting lease it ? — A. Yes, sir ; they can't lease it, but the] can alienate it, but not that way. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Your idea is, that if Congress would establish some tribuna here to handle the lease problem, and that Congress should establisl some general rules Avhich would enter into all these leases and giv( the local tribunals authority to make different conditions in differen cases, according to the necessities of the case? — A. Yes, sir. Now I wish to say that I think there are a great many full bloods who an not capable of looking after their business. I don't wish you to infei that we believe in any sweeping removal of restrictions. It is ; matter that ought to be handled carefully and advisedly, and no remove them in every case or even in the majority of cases. By Senator Teller: Q. In other words you want a tribunal here to execute the paper; and do the business for these Indians? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On that theory you would include the ones'^^f Avhite blood the ones of mixed blood also — you would extend it to all, in othei words? — A. Yes, sir. I was going to call your attention to th( illustration made by the agent this morning, of the Indian wh( wanted to sell his allotment at private sale for a very small sum— a a nearly or merely nominal figure — and by withholding the paper FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 619 for a short time he ^Yi^s able to make a bargain for that Indian that has jaelded him many thousands of doUars. I want (o say that that is not especially signifiotmt. I supiDose you gentlemen in your experience have seen a good many white men who wished they had held on to their property? Q. Yes, and I have seen a good many who had reason to wish that they had sold it. — A. My idea is that the restrictions as to leasing for mineral purposes ought to be removed from everybody without exception, because Congress when it first legislated on this matter evidently thought the full bloods were competent to handle their own affairs, and if they were competent then, in 1902, they are com- petent to-day, and it seems to me that they ought to be competent to-day to lease their lands for mineral purposes, for that does not involve a sale of it ; thej' can still use the surface of it for their living. Q. Well, maybe if they are competent, Congress is not? — A. Well, if they are not competent you can't legislate it into him, for you can't pass laws that will protect a man against himself, and the rules with reference to protecting Indians protect him absolutely up to the time that he wants to dissipate and throw away his property, and if he can sell his property and get his money for it his protection is gone; and if you go into this thing with the idea that you have to protect the Indian against himself, the Lord only knows over how many years and generations you will have to continue it. Now, gentlemen, unless there are some questions to ask me, I am done. Thank you, gentlemen. STATEMENT BY PLEASANT PORTER. By the Chairman : Q. Your name is what? — A. Pleasant Porter. Q. And you are chief of the Creek Nation? — A. Yes, sir; I am principal chief of the Creek Nation here at Muscogee. Q. Well, General, the committee would be glad to hear your views upon any of these matters which you may care to present to them which may or would affect the general welfare of the Indians or the general welfare of the Territory? — A. I have a few things to say; but may I sit down in doing so ? Q. Yes, sir; if you wish, to — certainly. — A. I would prefer to sit, for I am feeling weak. I have been indisposed this morning, else I would have been here; but I really was not able to come. Now, gentlemen, you have heard from other members of the Creek com- mittee, who have stated to you the things which their people desired them to say to you, especially what their views were on the question of the removal of restrictions. Therefore, it will scarcely be neces- sary for me to go over that matter again. All I will say about that is that they stated substantially the feeling of the full-blood Creek on that question. They stated it correctl}^ and accurately. The half blood, or the " mixed blood," as it is sometimes called, have now the right to sell by advertisement through the Government. The sale is conducted under qnd by the Government officials and is made to the highest bidder and for the highest price bid, if the highest lorice bid is greater than the appraised value of the land. This is supervised and attended to by an official of the Government, and 620 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. really is very satisfactory. Therefore, the mixed-blood question, I am of the opinion, needs no further treatment or consideration. The full blood and the negro question has been disposed of. They all have the right — the negroes have — all their adults have the right to sell their allotments. -A great many of them would prefer that they did not have this right, but they are the ones who have already sold, and it is useless to talk about that. But as they come into their majority, if it is the purpose of the Government to protect the colored people here equally with the Indians, I would suggest that he be placed and classed with the full bloods. They have got rid of it so fast that in my judgment there ayIU not be many of them will have any land at all soon, unless it be the homestead, and there are requests made that the land be turned over entirely to the negro element and this homestead be no further protected. The Government promised to protect these citizens of the Creek Nation without any mention of complexion. In this connection I want to say this, that neither the negroes as a people, nor did the Creek Nation ask for the removal of restrictions on the negroes. There may have been some members of the negroes rights association or society who asked that it be done, but it was not asked in any general way by the people as a whole, either negro or Indian. I know this, that Avhen it was done that the Indian element felt very much offended that the negro had been placed on a plane or on a higher scale of ability than they, the Indians, were. I know that the Indian people felt offended at that apparent favor- itism or assumption that the negro possessed a higher intellectual and mental makeuj) than the Indian did. I confess that I felt it myself, and personally I made this application, or, in other words, this statement to the Senate committee, that they remove the restric- tions on all adults, and I said that when it was clone there would be some of them get rid of their estate. I asked that this be done for all at least that held allotments, excepting their homesteads, and I said that the restrictions on the alienation of that should not be re- moved. Now, after seeing and observing the experience that the negroes have had and the result of the experiment of turning them loose, so far as I am concerned it has changed my opinion about not only the full bloods, but the negro too. I want to say this, that the negro — the ones we have down here — are no better than an Indian, and he is no more competent than an Indian. I will say this, further, that there are many ignorant negroes, many more in proportion to their number, than there are Indians. The negroes as a class are far more ignorant than are full-blooded Indians as a class. ■ It was an unfortunate thing to remove the restrictions from the negroes, but it is done, and it can't be changed I suppose now execpt- ing so far as relates to minors. He is not an Indian, anyhow, and he has had his good chance and has missed it, and in that he is no better nor any worse off than the Avhite man, so let him and his children take the fate of the white man or the chance of the white man and take care of himself. He is on an equal footing, anyhow, and his chance for the future is as good as that of the negro anywhere; but as for the minors they come under the care and rule of the courts, and the courts presumably will take care of them ; and I mean by that they would have to have guardians appointed with a good and suffi- cient bond before parents even could take charge of their estates or FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 621 iillotments, and this rule applies to the case of their own children. If it was not for this rule, they would probably dissipate the allot- ments and estate of the minor children as they did their own. Now. if that be done, if we had an officer here whose duty it Avas to attend to these things, and I think we might call him the general adminis- trator of estates of the State ; but whether you call him administrator or what not, T don't mean the court here, for that would not do at all. The court here has too much to do to pay propei' attention to each of these cases. It may have less to do when statehood is established, but I think we all take into consideration whether or not they shall not be better taken care of along with the Indians if they wish. As a general rule the Indians don't see why tliey should bs taken care of and supported by the Indians, inasmuch as they were made equal by the law and received their allotments the same, and while Mr. John- son spoke of that pretty thoroughly I want to say here and now that his statement was true. Now about the full blood. I am satisfied that if you removed his restrictions generally upon reaching his majority the first thing that he would do would be to go to the wall. What he had in the way of land would soon pass from him, and it is natviral that it did. The white man would do the same thing. Suppose that every body that would drive along the road and would see a good farm and would drive up to his house and say, " I want to buy your land," and he would say, " I don't want to sell it," and another one Avould come along and tell him the same thing, and every time us he priced it would say, " I want to improve your land for five years, and I will rent it first with the right to buy," and after awhile some one will come along and they will get to talking about it and that person will tell him that he has no sense or he would take up these ofi'ers, and so it is he sells. The continual thrusting before his mind of this one thing, the amount that he can get for his farm, will have its effect, and he will go crazy, just like a dog will go crazy if he hears a bell rung every day in the same way. It is the same thing, now that may be new to you, but he will. Yes, gentlemen, Ave are a good deal of an animal after all, and we are affected in the same Avay and by the same things that animals are affected by. Noav, I think, that there is a great many of our full-blood Indians that are competent to take care of themselves, and these persons will not sell any hoAv, but if they happen to do it will be for very good reasons and they Avill get the value of it, depend on that. Now, I belicA'e that there should not be any hard and fast rule about this matter of alienation, as it is called. I believe that persons who are elderly, whose childien haA'e allotments and have left them, and who are old and practically alone in the world should have some latitude in this matter. Their children are rich, they have allotments and are doing for themselves, and he has nothing and is in rags, and he has nothing at all. Now. that man or woman ought to be permitted to eat and drink and have a comfortable place to sleep for the little time he will be here. He is old and none of us live forever. He has land that he can't use. His estate is not needed for his children. They have theirs. He ought to be jjer- mitted to sell his land and enjoy it, what he gets for it while he is here. I don't understand why any of the land should be called " surplus." It is as complete and as much his as is the homestead The Chairman. I suppose that term is used to designate in a gen- 622 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. eral way the land that is not homestead ? — A. Yes, sir ; I suppose so, but I don't see the necessity for it. It has a bad effect. That you may sell, and the other you can't, and that is the very thing that is put before them so frequently and so persistently that, as I said a while ago, they kind of get crazy and think they have to get rid of it. Q. You would treat all the land alike, then? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you would not have any of it designated as homestead or as surplus? — A. No, sir; I would just call the whole thing his allot- ment and let it go at that. I would make it all the same. Now, with reference to the class of people that I was speaking of — elderly people — that is, the elderly class of the full bloods and those that are competent — I think they ought to have permission from the Com- missioner to sell their land under the Government, or I mean under the control of the Government. Q. That is, those that are full bloods? — A. Yes, sir; the elderly full bloods and the ones that are competent. That is my jjersonal view now. Those people that spoke here stated exactly what their people believe; but stating this as a personal matter and sjjeaking for myself personally, I give it as my judgment that it would be humane to let these elderly peojole sell their land under the proper supervision and with the proper safeguards around the expenditure of the proceeds realized from it, for I don't think it would be wise or IDrudent to allow them to have the expenditure of it themselves. These elderly people have the land. They can't cultivate it properly themselves. They can't make improvements on it, for either they don't know how, or they haven't the time or strength or ability to do it. There is a great many of them who practically abandon their allotments and practically live around from house to house with their families and neighbors and kin folks, and then there is a certain f)er- centage of the people in all communities who make a practice of prac- tically living off of other people or their kin folks, and sometimes with people who are kind to them, but Avho can ill afford the burden of their maintenance. We have a good many like that who are lazy and shiftless and no good at all from any point of view — well, there is not such a great number of them either, and these people will help him or any other person who is a director — or in other words, any person that is a working man. They are not lazy when it comes to doing something for some one else — and I mean by that that they will help some one else when they will not help themselves. Now, if these people have an allotment it is evident that it is perfectly useless to him, and so I think that on grounds of public policy such persons ought to be permitted to sell it, for it would then get into the hands of some one who would improve it and put it to some useful pur- pose. These people Avon't do anything with it, and it just lies there or has some poor renter on it, and so it goes until he dies, and then it goes to his heirs, for if the heirs had nothing he would reasonably leave it to them, and that might be a good thing and it might not. Now, there is another thing, I don't see that it is. in the interest of the grafter or anybody else. It is as much as the average man can do, anyway, to take care of 160 acres of ground, and then thei'e are the inducements to sell that are being thrust under his nose every day. I think that deceased lands — lands of deceased persons for distribution among the heirs at their request — I think they should be permitted to go into court through some person having charge of the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 623 matter and have it sold for the purpose of distribution among the heirs. I think that the lieirs to deceased allotments should be per- mitted to do that. Outside of that I don't know that I have any- thing further to say on the allotment question. I think that it has been pretty veil thrashed over here and at Vinita, and I suppose that it will be thrashed over at the other places that you will be, so that anything I would say would be merely a repetition of what you have heard or in anticipation of what you will Uear. It is a big question and an important question, and I am somewhat chary about expressing myself, for the fact is that I have taken almost c\'oi'v side of this matter that anybody else has taken for the past seven or eight years — I have been on all sides of it — and I have been so sure so often that I was right only to come to the conclusion that I was wrong that I hardly know what to say, and perhaps the best thing I could do would be to just say nothing at all. But while I admit that I have taken these mistaken and erxoneous positions, as has been proven by the result, yet I will say that I did so honestly and, as I thought at the time, for the best. I knew nothing about it when I commenced. I was ignorant, and am ignorant yet, I suppose, but I am learning, and when I find out that I have made a mistake it is a sure thing that I won't make that mistake again. It was all new to me when it commenced. I did not know anything about allotting lands, excepting that I saw the history of the allotments that were made for the last forty or fifty yeais, and I saw that each of them proved to be a complete failure, as far as Securing the Indian a home and making him a carpenter or a farmer. No^^•, with the exception that you can't make a farmer or a me- chanic out of an Indian like you can out of a white man — with these exceptions, the Indian is not so very much different from the white man after all. The principal difference is that he can't speak English, and he is not as good a judge of humanity as the white man. He is more like a child, simple and credulous, with a wholesome and profound fear of the law; and if he has any business to perform he is more than likely to get the fellow who has a glib tongue and an insinuating presence to attend to it for him than the man of busi- ness. He will get the grafter and the rascal, which is the same thing, to do his business for him, instead of going to the man who is known by every one to be a man of integrity. It is not the good attorney, the man who has a pride in his profession, that goes out and hunts them up, but it is the shyster, the man who is perfectly useless in a matter that requires a profound knowledge of the law — who has neither morals or conscience — that is the man who' goes out and hunts them up and gets them to sell their land for a mere pittance in comparison to what it is worth, and who is the coad- jutor of the gentleman of oily address, whom you doubtless have so often heard referred to since you have been in the Territory as the " grafter." Now, that is niy judgment, and that judgment is based on my experience with them and observation of them. If you have any doubt of the existence of the genus all you have to do is to look around this room and you will see them sitting in front of you and on every side of you. They are a prolific brood down here, gentlemen; their name is literally legion, but enough of the " grafter." 624 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. ISTow, the Seminoles by accident — none of us knew anything about it — ^but, as it happened, they took the course purely by accident that has turned out best for them. They took a course that seems to have turned out better for them than any of us took, and in fol- lowing that course they did something that was unique in the expe- rience of we Indians — that is to say, they employed an attorney who was actually an honest man to draw all their contracts. [Laughter.] Yes, jfehat is a positive fact — they actually did. Now, all the balance of us did not do that, and that is where we were not so fortunate as the Seminoles. We asked for it, but we left it out of the agreement. This was the thought afterwards, but we never could secure it. We had the opportunity, but we did not take it, and we never could get it to come again. I thought that it v\rould be better for each • one coming into the possession of property to have no knowledge of its value or use. In those days they alwa3's raised enough to eat, and that was all we wanted. We had little farms, and we raised patches of corn and potatoes, and poultry and pigs, horses and cattle, and a little of everything, and the country was jorosperous. In fact, in my early life I don't know that I ever knew of an Indian family that were paupers. There is plenty of them now ; there was none then. They were all prosperous and happy and contented in tlieir Avay, and what mi ore could they want? 1 say I don't know of an Indian family in my early life that were paupers. In those days the ones that would be paupers if they lived now stayed with their kin 'folks and they made them work. Now, back of that the custom of the Creeks was that everybody had to work or live on the toAvn, and the town had taskmasters who took care of him and saw that he worked. There was not a skulker or one Avho shirked amongst us then; quite different from what it is now. We had a kind of an Arcadian government then. If anyone was sick or unable to Avork, the neighbors came in and planted his crop, and they took care of it — saw that the fences were all right — and the women took care of the garden, and wood was got for him, and so on. In fact, everything was done under the care of the peo- ple — they did everything and looked after the welfare of everything. The Creek had that much knowledge, that they cared for each other in that way; and while they used to live in towns, out here in this peaceful country they had scattei-ed out just like white men, and each one had gone to his farm, because when they commenced to feel the demands or requirements of civilization they did not just know what it meant; but it ojoerated just the same on them as on a white man, and they scattered out and each man went to his home ; and there was a great deal of land for these people — there was too much of it for these people, and they got pretty smart and they wanted taxes and big lots of cattle — they wanted everything that Avay, and if we didn't do it we were in the soup anyway. Now, I mean that was the white people that came down to our coun- try. They wanted all these things ; but we wouldn't listen to them at first, but took them and turned them loose up here on the borders of Kansas and Missouri, but they would come back, and others would come, and we could not keep them out, so they would flow all over us. The Government did not give us much assistance, either, as they agreed — but that is neither here or there. There is where began, I PIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 625 suppose, this term " maverick." They didn't all come in here from Kansas, by any means. I don't wish to lay all the odium on Kansas, for Missouri and Arkansas and Texas must bear their sliare ; and I guess about every other State contributed its share, but ^Y(', got the people who couldn't live at home for one reason or another, and in the main that is how the mixed bloods came here. They came here and intermaiTied with the full bloods, and their descendants arc the mixed bloods of to-day. As I was saying, they would come down here and they would hang around for a time with the Indians, and a pretty good all-round fellow vmtil they gained the confidence of (lie Indian, and then when the opportunity presented itself they would disappear with his little stuff. In those days, you know, a hog ran wild in the woods — went just where he liked — only they would be fed regularly a little corn or something to keep them kind of tame and domesticated ; but now you have to keep him under fence, you can't leave him out now like then. He is just as iinsafe outside to-day as a squirrel is. That's right. He is just as unsafe as a squirrel would be. [Laughter.] Any- thing that is out of doors and is notunder fence or fastened down good and hard is an unsafe piece of pix)perty to have in these times, particu- larly chickens and hogs. It don't seem to be regarded as any crime to pick them up and eat them. Now, that is with people traveling on the road from one place to another. They .".re usually Avhite people, for the Indians don't travel aroun'd much. Mr. Porter. Now, we have had our misfortunes. AVe have striven in our own way for our elevation and uplifting, and for a time it seemed that we were actually going to evolve a sort of civilization that Avould suit our temperament ; and we probably' would if it had not been for this white and black invasion. I will say this, that by nature the Indian is honest. He is trustful and confiding ■\\'ith any one who approaches him as a friend or with friendly protestations. He trusts such a person, and the fact that he may be fooled time and time again don't seem to make much difference. He falls almost as readily as at first a victim to the v/iles of the next schemer that comes along; but, I say, the Indians in their own institutions are a naturally honest people. I think if they had any religion it was to tell the truth and do no harm to their neighbor or his property, or to injure anything that belonged to another man, and our contact — well, we came in contact with a certain class of whites, and speaking con- fidentially, that contact has not been advantageous to the Indian; but on the other hand, vre have come in contact with another class of white people whose association with us has been very beneficial, and that is the missionary class of whites; and you will find this in this country that the best class of people we have here were raised and educated in the missionary training schools. That is the Avay that they used to be trained ; but it seems that the chief result of the train- ing that they get now makes them grafters. Q. You are speaking now of the Creek country, are you not? — A. Yes, sir ; both the Creek country and all the rest of the country. It is all alike all over the country. It is graft, and graft wherever you go. When our young men get partially educated they go right to the grafter and hire to him, and they see that he is making money, and as that seems to be the chief end and aim of existence they try to do likewise, and so they follow his ways and try to make money by the 626 ^IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. same methods he does, and they succeed mighty well too. As a natu- ral thing they go to the grafter and hire to him, and he hires them to go out among their neighbors and make contracts for the purchase of land or get him to purchase things that he can't pay for, and in that way get him tied up in debts and difficulties so that they will be able finally to purchase his land. Now, the young man gets more money that way than he would by plowing and farming, and it suits him better, because he don't particularly like hard work anyhoAv; and so our young man's only opening is to join himself to a grafter, for in that way he makes a living and he don't have to do any hard work with his hands, and, as I say, that suits him perfectly, for hard work is something he will avoid if he can. We have lots of that class down here, gentlemen. I don't know how many of them there are in it, or what their share in the graft is, for it is pretty hard to tell. Now, I am telling you what the conditions are, but how that is to be remedied I don't know that I can tell you. It is a bad condition and something ought to be done for it, but just what to do I am not able to say. And so it goes. The whole history of his country is but one story, continued chapter after chapter, of the same general tenor. I am satisfied that the Government of the United States from the time of its organization has tried in good faith to protect the Indians. Yes, they have tried it in good faith, I think, and I think there should be no complaint on that score. Reading all through our history every- thing seems to point to that". They have made mistakes, tliat is true, just like Mr. Hitchcock is making mistakes, but they are mistakes that can not be avoided. If a person or a government could look forward as easily as it can look backward and see what the effect of its policy would be, it could avoid them, but the gift of foreseeing and foretelling the future has not been given us yet. Speaking of Mr. Hitchcock, I am satisfied that his intentions are good and that he is not actuated by anything save an earnest and honest desire to protect the Indians and their interests. The only fault to be found with him, perhaps, is that he is too much of a theorist and he had too much to learn when he went into the business. However, I have no charge to make against the theory of the Government to take care of us. I suppose it is right. I think we need protection if only the right kind of protection could be devised. It hasn't been discovered yet, and it is pretty late in the day to apply it now, even if it was discovered. However, as I say, I have no fault to find. I have made mistakes myself, and I am one of them, for I have been for things which I honestly believed were for the good of my race, but that plan when put in operation has proved by its results to have been a bad thing; so how could I blame the Government for doing things that tui'ued out badly when many of the very things that I advocated turned out badly. It is a complex problem, gentlemen. It is some- thing that never was tried before, this trjdng to educate a people up to a form of government and conditions alien to all their habits of thought and action. So I say I have no fault to find with the Government, nor do I think the Government is incompetent; but it thought that the Indians' property should be held in severalty ; that is, that nothing should be held in common, but that all should be divided up amongst the people, and they started out with that theory and the purpose to train and teach the Indians how to act against the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 627 day when that should come to pass. But as I say, it is a complex problem. It was too much to undertake in one or two generations. Perhaps if the Indian had had time it would have worked out all right. I have faith enough to believe that it would, but this great flood of population came down on this western country and all the land was taken and settled up, and it enveloped us on every side, and it is too much to expect that it would permit itself to be curbed by any mere boundary line. It came in on us and overflowed us, and so we are the mere creatures of events with the shaping of which we had nothing to do. So I say the Govei-nment was confronted with a condition which set all theories at defiance, and at last it was concluded that the only thing to do Avas to have the Indians take their land in severalty and this was done, and perhaps it was the best thing that could be done. Anyway, it is done and can't be undone. If the Government has made mistakes in the past, it should not allow itself to be bound by any precedent or pride of opinion, but it should set about the correction of these mistakes, and that is what I believe it has done in good faith. The Chairman. Xor should it be ashamed to correct them. Mr. Porter. That is what I say — it should not allow any pride of opinion to restrain it, and I don't believe it has. I believe that a good many of these mistakes have been made through the representa- tions of designing men who had their eye on this vast and wealthy domain of ours, and they foresaw more clearly than we did what the result would be, and persuaded us, as well as the Government, to take this course which has brought so much trouble on us. Now you will understand that I am speaking of the Indians and as one of them who has perhaps had better opportunities for seeing and judging these things than the average. I have lived quite a long time here and all my life amongst my people, and all that time I have been a pretty close observer, and for years I have watched the trend of events and foresaw what it would inevitably come to. I am not one who kicks against that which can't be helped. There is enough of the Indian in me to take what is coming to me without repining, and I have the hope all the time that all that has been is for the best ; and sometimes I can see through this cloud that obscures us — this semi-darkness which covers the whole land — the dawn of a better hope and a better time. Now, referring to what Mr. Owens said yesterday, Mr. Owens may not know it, but I know that Mr. Owens and myself can go where we please if we don't like conditions here, for the world is open to us, but I don't think that either he or I or anyone else should agree from any legal reason or reasoning to cut the throats, so to speak, of the many thousands of poor Indians who are here and can't possibly do what he or I can do. I don't think it ought to be done. I think the Government should save them, or as many of them as is possible ; but I feel that there are not going to be many of them saved. There are some growing up to a realization of the present, but not many — the rate of evolution has been too fast for them, and in the limited tiriie at their disposition they have not had time to adjust themselves. It is not so much a question of capacity as it is of time. We are all the creatures of inherited tendencies and capacities, that descend to us through numberless generations of ancestors, and the education and training of one generation or iwo generations will not change or eradicate these tendencies and capacities. No, gentlemen, it takes 628 S'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. time, time, and lots of it. The civilization of one people may take five hundred years and of another people a thousand and another per- haps five thousand. You are the evolution of thousands of years, and we the evolution of thousands of years, perhaps. Our civi- lizations are diametrically opposed, so how can we be expected to reach the same degree of civilization in two or three hun- dred years that has taken you at least a thousand or more to reach. Perhai^s if we had started from the same point and had been sub- ject to the same influences we would have reached a stage of evo- lution similar to yours. We both probably started at the same point, but our paths diverged, and the influences to which we were sub- jected varied, and we see the result. Who can say but that we would finally have reached a stage of civilization, toward which Ave were progressing slowly, but none the less surely, which Avould have suited our life better than the civilization which has been so violently and suddenly thrust upon us — a civilization which in the matter of the care and disposition of propertjr would have suited us far better than the cumbrous and intricate methods Avliich you have of adjusting proj^erty interests amongst you. I haven't much more to say. In conclusion I vv'ould say that I would like to see this country become a great and a prosperous State, and while it may not be granted me, I would wish to live to see that daj', and see the day when all these questions which so vex us now would be settled in such a manner as to show that the designs of Providence are always good, though at times inscrutable. Above all things, I would like to live to see the day when, in the great State that Avill inevitably be here, I would see my people and the white man living side by side in a prosperous land on terms of perfect intellectual and political equality, and each doing their share toward the maintenance and support of that State ; and above all things, I would like to live to see the day when all these questions would be settled and would see ourselves in the same light as the white man, and be proud of the knowledge that he lives under the same laws and enjoys the same benefits that the white man does, and also upholds the same obligations, but I don't want to rush it at such a rate that the Indian would be lost in the transformation. Now I must close. I can't think of anything more to say. I don't know that I have said anything in this rambling talk of mine that would suggest remedial legislation, and that, I apprehend, is what you wanted. I have advised so often in the past and been wrong that I am a little loath to give advice in these days even when it is asked. These matters of the leasing of lands and rents and royalties are all provided for, and, indeed, practically, I don't know anything about them, for I have never had anything to do with minerals, or oil, or coal, or gas, or anything of that kind. I have not dealt in real estate excepting to buy town lots once in a while right here in my own town. I would suggest, though, that you call some of these fellows before you whom I call " grafters." Everything has two sides to it, and I would suggest that you hear their side of it before you leave. It might prove instructive. I can assure you that it will prove enter- taining — m a way. If they will tell you anything you will know whether they are telling the truth or not, and possibly they may tell you something of their methods that will reveal to you how things are done and how it is looked at from their point of view. I don't FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 629 think they can keep it from you, even though they are talking the other way, and so I think it would be proper for you to take some of them and ask them how they do their business and what kind of con- tracts they have. Take copies of their contracts, for you have taken Zevely's papers, and they are the fellows that are holding these lands more than anj^body else. That is all I have to say, gentlemen." STATEMENT OF MR. NEV. CAMPBELL. Mr. CAMrBELL. I live at Pryor Creek, Ind. T., Cherokee Nation. My profession is that of an attorney at law, pure and simple, for I never bought a piece of Indian land or sold a piece of Indian land or had anything to do with an oil lease in my life, directly or indirectly. My practice in in the courts and before the Department down here for clients, and I think under the circumstances that I should know something about the Indian question. I propose to talk to you upon the general proposition as to whether it is feasible to pass a law that will be just and right with reference to removing the restrictions upon land here in the Cherokee Nation. That is a question that has been agitated a great deal, and there was a good deal said to you upon that matter at Vinita, but I want to say to you that if such a law is passed it should apply to the whole Indian Territory. I think that any law of that character that might be passed applicable to the Cherokee Nation would be equally applicable to all the other nations. I think there can be no doubt of that ; hence I say if a law is passed it should be made to operate everywhere down here, and I assure you if it is done it Avill not be to the detriment or disadvantage of the Indians, but will be a benefit to them, and at the same time result in building up the whole country. Now, in order that you may understand the reasons that I shall give you as to why the restrictions should be removed, I want to preface my statement with a short history of the allotments. I have been down here for years at that point following my jorofession of attorney at law. I formerly lived in Lynn County, Kansas, and I came here in 1902. The Indians chose their own allotments by going before their land office for their own nation. The father, if alive, went down and represented his wife and family, or the mother did so if the father was not alive. That was the way it waS done, the father representing the whole family, and if the father was not liv- ing then the mother represented the family. Now, as a general proposition, in talking these allotments the whole family took theirs in a compact form — the father and mother would take theirs side by side and they would then take their children's allotments around them as closely and compactly as possible. That was their idea, for as a general rule an Indian is much attached to his family and the idea was to keep them all as close together as possible, so the father and the mother would select their homesteads side by side and range the children's allotments as close as possible. Now, the allotment for a homestead in the Cherokee Nation was 40 acres for each member of the family, and over in the hills where the full bloods live it was much larger than that, for the size of the allotment depended on the value of the land selected, but the average was about 40 acres each. Of course, the children vastly outnumbered the adult population, and as a result of this about three-fifths of all the land in the Cherokee 630 VIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Nation is oAvned by minor children. Of course, under the law and ■svithout restrictions, that land would be inalienable, and under the law that land can't be sold at all. They can use it, if they can — put it to any use agriculturally they please — but they can't sell it. Now, of the two-fifths that is left it is safe to say that three-fifths of that is inalienable oh account of its being homesteads. So you see the general removal of restrictions is not going to put a great deal of land on the market, excepting it- would put more on the market in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations because the allotments are larger there than in the Cherokee or Creek nations. We have a kick coming here that is the legitimate offspring of long- range government. If this country Avas settled up as far as it is with , Kansas people, there would have been a great deal more kicking done than there has been. It is a good thing for the Department that it is settled Avith people Avho are patient and long-suffering, and, Avhile there has been a good deal of kicking, enough to get you gentlemen down here, it is not a marker to Avhat it would have been if we had all been Kansas people. It Avould have been heard in Washington a great deal louder than it has; but that is an incident of long-range goA'ernment, and I suppose that, bad as it is, it could not have been im- proved much. Long-range government is ahvays bad — for the people who are governed. No man sitting at a desk in a Department at Wash- ington can properly govern a people as far aAvay as this is ; but there is a Avhole lot of things that can't be helped in this Avorld, and I sup- pose that is one of them. Consequently what Ave are after now is to try and inform you gentlemen, since you are here, to try and inform you as best Ave may, of just AA-hat the conditions are doAvn here. I think your eyes Avill be opened and you will knoAv a AA'hole lot of things Avhich perhaps you have dreamed of before, but which you know now to be facts. NoAv, then, in order to give jou an idea of what ought to be done I want to give you the result of the present condition doAvn here. I could spend a day or two on it, but you need not fear that I propose to take up any more of your time than is absolutely necessary to give you a brief summary of it. I know that your time is limited — I heard the chairman so announce — and I feared that time Avould be denied me, so I Avill address myself to the subject as briefly as possible. Senator' Long. That is the thing to do — time is passing. Mr. Campbell. Noav, then, to give you an idea of the conditions prevalent down here noAv. Noav, then, in the Creek country the way a man does if he wants to sell his surplus land is to go to the Indian agent and have it advertised and put up and sold to the highest bidder by the sealed-bid system. Noav, that is in this district. Mus- cogee is the iDlace where the Indian office is, and no one can buy that land unless they come here to Muscogee and lie around waiting the day of the sale, without any assurance that his bid Avill be accepted; and there are a lot of people probably doing the same thing — all bidding on the land — so no one knoAvs aa'Iio Avill get it. The land is first appraised, and it can not be sold for less than the appraisement; and then after the bid is accepted he must still — the purchaser must still — lay around another sixty days or so before the sale will be approA^ed. People are not going to do that. They Avant land, and they want it quick ; so I suppose, as has been stated here, the result FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 631 of that system is that the grafter or speculator gets it, for he is here and the only one who can wait the slow movements of the iiuu-hinery that unwinds the hxpe. The curse of this country is the incalculable amount of red tape that has to be unwound to do the simplest thing. You may think yon knoAv just how much of it there is, but before you get tlirough it generally develops that there was se\'eral miles niore of it than you anticipated. But I am digressing. I was telling you about the system of disposing of surplus lands in the Creek Nation. Xow, up in the Cherokee country the way of disposing of surplus land is by getting the Secretary to remove the restrictions. I will tell you how that works: A little Indian over here — it is immaterial what his name i? — but he has some surplus, and he wants money. lie knows a fellow who has money, and he goes to him and says : " I am hard up and want some monej^ You give me some money and get my restrictions removed, and I will let you have the land." Now, that man he goes to is what we call a " grafter " down here, and this grafter knows the land and he knows what it is worth, and he gives the Indian $10 and makes a contract to take the land when the restric- tions are removed, and he tells him that he will have them removed for him ; so he tells him to go and make ajsplication to the agent, and he will say : " When you see him tell him that you want your restric- tions removed. You haven't anything, and you have all this surplus land and your homestead — you have that anyway — but 3'ou ought to get your restriction removed, so you can sell your surplus, and I will take it and give you some money for it, and here is $10 to start with. If you sell your surplus you can buy a team and a plow and wagon, and build a house on your homestead, and be able to do something with it.'' That is what he will tell him, and it is all true; the only objection to it is that the land goes to the grafter at a grossly inadequate price and out of any proportion to its actual value, all because he is in a position to take advantage of the ignorance of that Indian, for there is not one in ten of them that have any ideas about business. So the Indian goes down to the agent and tells him that he wants to get his restrictions removed. He don't tell him that he has already sold the land — he is Avarned against that — he just says he wants to get his restrictions removed, and the agent gets up the papers and he signs them and they are witnessed and the agent looks at him and perhaps hears from two or three people about him, and they think he is a pretty good fellow, and so the agent recommends the removal of the restrictions and it goes on to the Secretary, and comes back in due time approved and the restrictions are removed, and the grafter gets the land, for when the Indian gets his certificate he goes to this same grafter and says : " I have got the restrictions removed ; " and the grafter says : " That is all right, come down here with me," and he takes him down somewhere and buys the land from him for eight or ten dol- lars an acre — often for less, for you can depend on it he don't pay any more for it than he has to pay — so he gets the land for perhaps _$8 or $10 an acre, and perhaps in two weeks he turns around and sells it for $20 or $25 an acre. Now, that is the trouble, for there was nobody in that whole country knew that that Indian was getting his restrictions removed or that he was going to sell his land. If that had been known ,he could have got the $20 or $25 aji acre for it instead of the grafter. 632 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The grafter by these methods has an actual monopoly of the business, and they are buying land in that manner almost every day — land that might have been sold to some actual bona fide farmer at a fair price, ■which would have been for the benefit of the country — for we want people down in this country who are looking for homes; who want to come among us and be one of us; but such a man has no chance at all under such a sj'stem. I want to say to you gentlemen that I believe I am within the bounds of reason when I say that in the Cherokee Nation and the Creek Nation that 9 out of every 10 acres of land that has been sold by the Indian agent, and by the removal of restrictions in the way I have instanced, have passed into the hands of the grafter or speculator to 1 that has passed into the hands of a bona fide settler. In point of fact, it is almost an impossibility for a settler to get land down here except through the medium of the speculator, who has to have his profit, and it is a good one every time. The Chairman. Is there not a restriction placed on the sale of the land after the restrictions are removed, so that it can not be sold for thirty days? Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; that is in the Cherokee Nation. The Secretary did one fine thing, one good thing; and when he does a good thing no one will give him credit for it quicker than I ; he did a good thing when he ruled that no land upon which restrictions had been removed could be sold for thirty days thereafter ; but what he ought to do is to remove them first and put the limit at sixty days and then advertise them in the newspapers, so everybody will have an opportunity to see it and know it. If that is done, there will be a chance for the actual settler to get a look in at these lands and buy them and come with us and live with us, he and his family. I agree with what a gentleman said here, that it was the shysters and disreputable Indians who go around looking up these ignorant Indians and holding inducements before him that he can not resist ; for, as has been said here, the Indian after all is a good deal like a child ; he is only a grown up child as a rule, and when he sees anything he wants, he wants it right off; he wants it quick, and can't get it any too soon, and to get it he will make any present sacrifice. They have been well described here. That is the rule amongst them. Some of them, though, are quite capable of looking out for themselves — lots of them are, in fact. When these shysters and grafters come to them, they, like a child, take them right in and swallow everything they say to them, particularly when they have money, for there is nothing an Indian values above money. It is not the quantity of it, but just the fact that it is money that they are stuck on. But as I was saying, when these fellows get out among them they 'are not able to discriminate between them and a capable honest man, and they will be,more than likely to employ them to do their business. Now, as I said before, the Indian and his wife have been alloted their allotments in most cases side by side, and when that is done that farm will amount to two eighties or 100 acres in all, and that is all that he wants, and more than he used when he had all this country back of him to choose from. That is a fact ; when he had the whole of this country back of him to choose and pick from he only had a little place of, at the outside, 20 or 30 acres ; and he can very easily now make his home for himself and wife on 80 acres, As a rule that is double what he wants, FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 633 Now, here is what I wish to impress upon you more than anything else in regard to this matter : it is the policy of the Government in breaking up these tribal relations so as to get these Indians on their individual land and to alloAv the white people to come in and settle on them. Now, that was the policy of the Government in changing this, it Avas with the idea that the whites in coming here .and settling on these lands, would by their precept and example and by association with the whites, the Indians woulcT be stimulated into an emulation of their example and their Avays of doing things — show him by exam- ple a better way of living and a higher civilization — that was the idea of the Government, and it was a good idea, and the only idea out of which there can anything good be coming for the Indian. Now, Con- gress at its last session went to work and put restrictions on every full blood's land up here across the river, and you can see how that is arranged. That land a great deal of it in certain sections is taken up by the full bloods. Now, in my opinion the result of that law as far as the development of these sections is concerned will be very disastrous. That land, as I say, is all held by the full blood, and if he can't dispose of it in any way for twenty -five years, there is no hope for the advancement of that country. It was designed in good faith for the assistance of the Indians, but the result of it will be to para- lyze the development of the country, for no decent white man will take his family and go in there and live among the Indians, and if he did so it would be as a renter or leaser, and the best element in the whits race — the ones that we want to get to come to the country — are opposed to renting. They want to own the land where their home is, and if they can't own it here they will go somewhere else where they can buy the land and own it. You have said to the Indian you can't sell your allotment at all, you can only lease your surplus land for one year and no longer. Now, what kind of a farmer Avill come in and lease land for just one year? Now, nine acres in that country out of every ten is absolutely unimproved^ Do you think that any white man that is any account will take his family in among these people, even for one year? Not much. And what you want and what we want is that very thing — the presence of white people whq by their example will stimulate the Indians to a better Avay of life and bet- ter things. And so all that magnificent domain of as fine land as the sun shines on is for twentj^-five years left in its original condition without any prospect or hope of amelioration or improvement. So by your action j'ou have made him — the Indian — more exclusive and inaccessible even than he was in the past, and the very thing that should have been avoided has been done. That condition under this enactment, waiving the question of its legality, which in my opinion is very doubtful, you have more effectually bottled up the country and exempted it from material progress and improvement than by any enactment that Congress ever passed. Now, I will say this on the side, that I don't think that law as a ■ legal enactment of binding force, that will stand the test of litigation, is worth the paper that it is written on, and I think that is the univer- sal opinion of competent lawyers, because it is an attempt to restrict what a man shall or may do with his property after it has been al- lotted to him. You first gave him the land on the condition that he could sell it in five years, and after it had been accepted on these terms you come in with condition that he can't sell it for twenty-five years, S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 41 634 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. and I don't think there is a lawyer anywhere, that is a lawyer, but will say, offhand, that is a restriction that you were powerless to impose. No, I don't believe you can extend the restrictive term in any such a A¥ay as that. Now, even when the law runs out in his case, which will be the 1st of next July, under the original five-year restrictive clause — even when that law runs out the worst thing that you have done is to put a cloud on his title which will depreciate the value of the land, and if he sells it, as I hold he can, and convey a good title, the purchasers will take advantage of that flaw or cloud on the title and will not pay what the land is worth ; so here again, quite inadvertently. Congress has worked into the hands of the speculator and grafter, for if these gentlemen can get it at their price you may dejoend on it the cloud on the title will not have any tendency to deter them from purchasing. So I say, the man who believes that he has a good fight- ing chance to ultimately get a good title to it, will buy it at a good deal less than its actual value, and that man will be the grafter and speculator, and they will litigate the matter when they get about all there is to get and have the courts decide the constitutionality of that enactment, attempting to restrict the sale of it for tAventy-five years. I tell you gentlemen of the jury — pardon me — I meant to say gentle- men of the committee — I am so accustomed to addressing juries that it slipped inadvertently from my tongue — I tell you gentlemen of the committee that that is a matter that you ought to look into. You can easily tell what my profession is. Senator Long. Yes, it is plain to see that you are a lawyer. Mr. Campbell. Noav, gentlemen, I honestly believe that you ought to pass a law removing the restrictions from all the land in this country — in all the Territory removing the restrictions from all the land excepting the homestead. I don't believe that the restrictions ought to be removed from that. AMien you do this, the husband and Avife who have their allotments of homesteads side by side will have ample land for their requirements and will still have the home- stead that they can — I should say will have their surplus land which they can sell to some good enterprising white man who will buy it and make a farm of it. He will take his wife and children there and build him a nice house, and fence that farm and put it in cultiva- tion, and the Indians that are living there by his side and in the whole neighborhood Avill see Avhat that white man is doing and the way he does things, and gradually they will follow his example, and in that way little by little it will gradually have its effect on the Indians. This white man will talk to his full-blood neighbor and say to him, " Let us have better roads in this country, and let us have a school over here on the hill, or a church over here on the hill," and he will talk to him about obeying the laws, and little by little the full blood will realize that there is a better and more comfortable way of living' than the way he has been accustomed to. Now, I know something about this matter. You can go out among these full bloods to-day and observe the way they are living, and you would not think it is' living at all. It strikes us as merely existing, and yet these full bloods would q.uestion whether there was any better way of living. They actually think they are living as well as it is possible for a man to live, simply because they have never known anything better. Well, " where ignorance is bliss, perhaps 'tis folly to be wise." You all know that, but it is hard to believe that even ignorance can be blis" FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 635 under the conditions you would observe. So I say, the removal of the restrictions will bring men into this country — good white men, energetic and industrious white men — men Avho know how to do things and have left tlieir impress all over this broad land of ours except down here in the Territory, excepting in the cities, where there is a class of men as energetic and progressive as exist anywhere. As Chief Pleasant Porter has said, the trouble is that the class of white men who have come into this country have not in all instances been exercising the most beneficial influence on the Indians, and that is true. In the past the record of many of the white men who came here would not bear an investigation ; but the good white men would come into it, and would haA^e come long ago if they could, but the trouble is that they can't gain a foothold. He would come here to-day and see conditions and he would be somewhere else to-morroAV, and tlie fact is that very few of the best white people would come into the country. In the past down here when one Avhite man would meet another he would say, " What did you come to this country for?" and the man addressed would say, " I had a falling out with my sheriff where I lived up there and I thought it best to leave ; so I thought I would come down here where we would not have any chance of meeting and getting mixed up in some more trouble." As Chief Porter said, the best element in this country — the best element of the whites that were in it in the past — has been the missionaries. I agree with him. It is a pity that all white men did not follow the example of the missionaries. Now, gentlemen, I have consumed considerable time and said more really than I intended to say, but when a person gets their blood warmed up and are full of a subject they sometimes say more than they ought to. I hope I haven't said anything that will prejudice against the things I advocated. I want to say to you that whatever you do is of no moment to me financially. I probably could make more money out of the present conditions than I could out of con- ditions as they would be if you folloAV the course I have outlined. So I say it is of no importance to me from a financial standpoint, but I have very near my heart the progress and development of the country. I have learned to like it and love the simple people by whom it is inhabited to such a large extent; and I honestly believe that if you will remove the restrictions from the surplus land and give tlie white people a chance to come in here from all over the United States and buy this land and get a good title to it and build their homes and raise their families that you will see one of the most progressive and prosperous communities in all America built up here, and that tlie ultimate effect upon the Indians in the way of teaching them how to live better will be beyond all computation. I knoAV that if you will do this you will be doing more for them than anything else you can do. Let them sell their surplus ; they don't need it at all. They still have their homesteads — don't remove the restrictions from it — they will still have it, and it is as much land as they will need, and far more than any of them will improve and cultivate ; and when you pass that law say to all the world that the restrictions will be removed in sixty days from the time of the signing of the bill and that news will go out over the country and thousands upon thousands of the best and most desirable people in all these United States will flock into thig 636 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. country and be here before the law goes into effect, and they will look it over and search out for themselves the location they want, and they will go to the Indians and say — one man will say " I will give you $10 an acre for your surplus," and another one will come along and he will like it and he will say " I'll give you $12 an acre for it," and another and another and another, and they will raise the price; another will say " I'll give you $15 " and another $18 and still another $20 an acre for it; and thus the market being provided the competi- tion will come and instead of the Indian bemg compelled to sell to some grafter or speculator his land will be in the market and will bring what it is worth for the first time in the history of this Ter- ritory. The Indian will be able to turn his land over at a profit — something that will do him some good — if he is capable of appreciating the full value of .money, and the country Avill be filled up with home makers and not with transients or birds of passage, as it is at present. Now, that is what I believe the full bloods want. I live right there, next door to their neighborhood, and they come to my town and to my office, and I know them and have talked lots with them, and they all v/ant that kind of thing done, and I know that it will be to their interest, as well as the interest of the country, if it is done. I again earnestly assure you that I have no ulterior motive in this thing. Again I say that it will be of no financial advantage to me. Again I say that-if things remain in their present condition it would probably, from a financial or money-making point of view, be to my advantage, for out of the present condition, after next July, is sure to grow or spring a crop of litigation that would be profitable to the lawyer. Again I say that my only interest in this matter is that something may be done that will result in advantage to these people and to the whole country. I almost believe that you would better take the restrictions off entirely than leave it in the shape it is now, for certainly the Indian in our country is not going to be able to hold his lands, and it is almost a certainty that in the process of change almost every bit of it will filter through the hands of the land speculators and grafters. Senator Teller. Well, independent of the act of April 26, 1906, the restrictions will be removed in the Cherokee Nation next August. — A. Well, that treaty has two clauses in it — one says that it shall be alienable five years after date, and the other says it shall not be alien- able on or before five years from patent. Now, which of them gov- erns ? The first of them says it shall not be alienable before five years from the ratification of the treaty, and the next one says it will be alienable five years after the date of the patent. Now, that is a con- dition that Congress can correct, and it ought to be corrected, else the courts will be full of law suits after the 1st of next August. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, where would the time limit for alienation be ? — A. Well, that is what we have been talking about for a year — since the matter became imminent — hundreds of people and lawyers have talked that matter over pro and con — discussed it and turned it over and no two can agree hardly as to where it is or when it will be. The patents are dated along clear for a year and you can't tell any thing about it, and if something is not done at this ap- proaching session of Congress to settle the matter it will inevitably , be a fruitful source of litigation ; and as a result of this uncertainty FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 637 when a fellow buys a piece of land he is not going to pay as much for it as he would pay for it were this cloud not on the title — provided, of course, it is not removed. If that McCumber Act is not valid — well, there will be a lot of land bought and sold regardless of that McCumber Act. Now, I wish to say this, that there can't be any question but that it applies to all allotments taken after its passage; but those taken before its passage I don't believe it applies to, because the Supreme Court of the United States says that the law existing at the time of the making of a contract enters into and becomes a part of it, and I don't see why that would not apply in this case. I thank you, gentlemen, for your attention. STATEMENT OF HON. PLEASANT PORTEE. Gentlemen, with your permission I wish to add a few remarks in addition to what I have already said on the question of why the full bloods do not want their restrictions removed. In the first place they had this idea — have it yet- — that if their restrictions are removed it would become subject to taxation and possibly pass from under them, for when this becomes a State then the laws of the new State of Okla- homa would be in force, and they can't pay any thing, or a great many of them can't, and they fear in that way their land would be taken from them for taxes. The Chairman. They are afraid it would be sold for taxes ? Mr. Porter. Yes, sir; and that is the greatest feeling they have against the removal of their restrictions — tlie fear that the land would be taxed and they would not be able to pay the taxes and it would be sold for the taxes. They feel that the State of Oklahoma would be good enough to do that very thing. Mr. Campbell. I might add that I would suggest that the home- stead be untaxable twenty-one years. Mr. Porter. Well, I don't believe the idea should go out that it is taxable at all. If they have any option of selling, let it be at the option of the person owning it. The idea that they can't have more than 80 acres is not susceptible of universal a23plication. It has been stated that 80 acres is enough for any of them, and too much for most of them, is not true. I am talking of the full-bloods. I know them as well as any man in the Territory. I ought to know them. No one has had a better opportunity to know them than I, and I assert that many of them are as capable of taking care of IGO acres as any white man is. There should be nothing compulsory in the mat- ter of sale. It should be left perfectly at their option — to sell or not at their option. Another thing we were speaking about, where — well, I see a good deal in the newsiaapers about the schools. Now, these schools were built up by ourselves. We built them ourselves. The Government never built them for us. We took our annuities and built the schoU houses and organized the scholl system, and it was very well organized. I don't think that anything better could be devised than what we did of and through ourselves. It operated very well, indeed. We were proud of our educational institutions and facilities. We did not refuse to continue them. For fear that we might refuse to continue them with white supervision was the excuse for taking this school system from us, and it was taken from 638 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. US against our will. We never consented to it. We protested against it. I mention it now, for we felt very bad about it. We think that what we had built and established with our own money, and which was the child of our sacrifice and endeavor to find our way to civilization, ought to have been left to us ; but it was not. I say we had built up these schools ourselves. Forty or fifty or sixty years we were at the work of building them up, and we brought "them to a stage of perfection and efficiency that would be a credit to any community of white people anywhere. Our schools were models and so considered everywhere. People — educators — came long dis- tances to inspect them, and we received approbation and commenda- tion on every hand for the way they were built, equipped, modeled, and organized. They were taken as models. We, alone, brought this about; but they were taken from us. A great many of our young people were partly educated in them, and a great many more received all the education they ever got in them — and it was an edu- cation that they need not be ashamed of. We had a good staff of teachers. I don't say that they were as finely educated as the teachers from the States were, but they knew how to instill knowledge into the material they had to work on, and they did it; and, after all, that is the test. The main thing is that the teachers we had down here were home-grown, so to speak; they weie the product of our own schools, and when they were ready they got employment as teachers, and still they coulcl go on learning; and it was an encour- agement to them to get an education, for they could see before them something that all felt was worthy of an effort to reach ; but you took it all away from us and put in your superintendent and supervisors and teachers, and we have nothing more to do with it. I say, in all this there is not much food for the encouragement of the Indian population in seeking an education. The avenues of promotion along educational lines are all closed to them now. Now, to these higher schools that we had — ^there was 70 or 80 j)eople went to them, and from that on up to 200 or 300 — and in the little neighborhood schools there would probably be 30 or 40. Now, since they have been taken from us, what are they doing? We used to maintain them — and all of them — and in all these nations there was not an Indian child who could not get an education. I see that Mr. Falwell says — and I haven't a word to say against him, he is a good man and a gentleman — but I see that he says there should be some provision for maintaining these schools until the State is organized and is able to make provision — adequate provision is, I believe, the way he put it — for the maintenance of these schools. Now, that is already pro- vided for. We are not paupers down here. We always had money to carry on the schools and pay all the exj^enses for doing so, without discount or defalcation. There is a fund of money provided for that purpose, and the principal of that fund for the schools is to be paid to the individuals to equalize their allotments. That is in the treaty. We have got to divide the school fund, and we can't divid°, it up among the schools after the end of the tribal government at all : and then the government that succeeded us Avould have to provide for schools. Now, I am very sure that we never asked for a change of government. None of us ever did that; but that, like many other things, was forced on us — for we never asked for the stoppage or end- ing of our tribal government ; but I realize that we had to do it, for FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 639 the growth of the country had reached such a point and conditions had got to be so that it was impossible for tlie Government to carry out its promises. Everybody will concede that who has any intelligence. So we finally gave it up at a great sacrifice and expense to us, and it really would have been unjust to the age to have resisted it. Now, there is one thing I am ready to admit, and that is that there is no such thing as making an Indian the equal of the average white man. We made that deal as usual, and as usual got the worst of it. We had our best and wisest men to council over it, and yet we got the worst of it, and so it went on from the start — making deals and treaties and agreements and getting the Avorst of it. "Well, if some of the whites could be in our place for a little while they would probably sympa- thize with us. We are in the habit of obeying the laws — most of us are, but some of the whites don't apjoreciate it. It is a strange thing that the farther we get away from our home down here the more sympathy we get from the people. One thing sure, our neighbors down here don't seem to ha\'e much sympathy for us. The idea that the only good Indian is a dead Indian is a pretty strong fixed idea out here. That he has got to go is the general opinion of this ad- vancing idea of civilization. It is unfortunate that it is so, but there is no question but that it is true. Now, we are soon to become part of a State, of the new State of Oklahoma, and our property rights and rights of persons will have to be adjudicated by the courts of the State. We won't be able to appeal to the courts of the United States on every question, for its protecting hand will be withdrawn from under us, and we will be at the tender mercy of the people and courts of this State, the majority of whom firmly believe it is true that the only Indian that is worth anything is the one that is dead. That is the truth — our rights will have to be adjudicated by the courts that will be elected by the people here. We know now what will probably happen us. We had a little election here a few days ago, and some of the Indians were a little ambitious and they thought that they would like to run as a delegate to the constitutional convention that will begin its sessions over here at Guthrie next week — but it did not seem to make much differ- ence whether he was a Republican or a Democrat — ^liis ambitions were not realized. He got beat. Well, some of them at other points in the Territory tried the same thing; but it was all the same, whoever he was or wherever it was, he got beat every time. Now, not one good Creek Indian is a member of that constitutional convention — not one. I mention this merely to show that the Indian won't have any show when State government comes, for it will be just the same in selecting the officers either for the State, county, or city. He will not have any place in the dispen- sation of justice. You take the Indian — he will never be on a jury. He will never have a chance, and while, perhaps, I should not say these things thus openly, I am acting somewhat in the role of a prophet, and I ask you gentlemen to pay attention to the result and see if what I predict will not come to pass. There is, of course, no use talking about that ; but I want to call your attention to the diffi- culties the Indian is under and the troublous times that are so rapidly advancing on him. The white element and the element that it can control is in the saddle, and in the ordering of things the Indian has neither place nor part. It is true that we consented to it; but 640 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. there was no alternative, no more than there is to the victim when the highwayman at the point of the pistol politely requests the de- livery of his pocketbook. Now, understand that I am not saying that the Government in any such manner forced us into it. Far be it from me to charge that; and I say again that the Government, I believe, at all times has acted in perfect good faith, and I don't want you to be under any misapprehension about that; but what I mean is that we were forced into this position by the operation of a law higher than any law ever passed by human enactment. Yes, gentlemen, the operation of a law higher than any you can make has brought about this condition, and that is the law of evolution, which works out its immutable decrees in the case of nations and individ- uals without variation, deviation, or exception. It turns aside at no obstacle, it moves forward like a great river to its home in the sea, and peoples and individuals are like chips on the surface, bound all alike for the same destination ; and so, I say, like the flow of a great river Avhose tide can't be stemmed for any length of time, we have been carried forward and have reached another stage in our evolution. But to get back to my subject — here is $76,168 annually that we devoted to tne cause of schools Senator Clark, of Montana. In the Creek country? Mr. Porter. Yes, sir ; in the Creek Nation — we applied that much to the cause of education here in our country annually, but they have taken that away from us and now they are telling the public that we need more, and no doubt we do, but if it is needed it is for the white people and not for the Indians, and I hope that they will get more, for I believe it is needed, but as I say that was what we used and it was sufficient for our purpose, and, as I said, furnished an education for every Creek child. There were none so poor or obscure but had the opportunity of a schooling that we believed was exactly fitted to his needs. Yes, gentlemen, they took our funds and applied it to the education of white children, and now th'ey come before you and make the plea of poverty for the cause of education, and I want it distinctly understood that the Indian is making no such plea. If he had his own he is amply provided with funds to take care of the education of his own. Still, as I say, I hope their plea will meet with a liberal response, for white children are just as much entitled to education as Indians, and if you don't provide it I don't know where it will come from ; but the point I make is that it is unjust to take the Indian funds and use them in a manner that de- prives fully half the Indian children of an education that under our own Government was denied to no one. I make this explanation here in view of the statement made by the officers of the present school system, which would leave the impression that it was the Government of the United States which, out of the goodness of its heart, had done all this. Nor do I find any particular fault to find, but I say this, that when the Indians — when we were carrying on our own schools we had just as good schools and just as good results, at a far less cost, as we have now, and it was more satisfactory too. I will say further that now the superintendents and teachers are selected by these school officers and we don't know anything about who they are or where they come from ; all we know is that they come here from somewhere and are given positions as teachers. We know that there are very few, if any, Indian teachers employed. They all FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 641 went out. They could not get along with the school management here and I don't know of any that are left. There may be some of the Cherokees who still are employed in their schools, but if we have ten in the Creek Nation who are Creek teachers I will say that I don't know now where they are. I want to impress you with this idea, that tlie persons you put here, some of them are very good; but it seems to me that all the labor they could put on it would not convince the public that tlu\y have done well or that they have done all that has been done in the matter of the education of the peojDle. They have these new persons that came here — well I don't know ; I'll let that pass. I want to call attention to another thing — about the delivery of deeds. The treaty provides that the agent shall do that. I was not chief at the timethat treaty was formulated, but they did it verj^ well then. The chief made the deed in all cases for lots in towns. The Government appointed the surveyor, who segregated the town. Each of these towns was designated by the Government commissioners, who were employed by the Government to value these lands, and, under the agreement, to say who was entitled to it — that is, which person or what person was entitled to this or that lot — the Indian agent, under the inspector's directions; and whenever full payment was made for a lot it was made known at the chief's otRce, and this person who had paid in full for the lot was entitled to a deed, and he gave me the certificate or sent me a copy of it, and he got the deed. I made the deed out for him in my office — that is, it was made in my office and forwarded to the Secretary for approval, and they were approved and brought back here and the Dawes Commission recorded them and returned them to me Senator Long. The Dawes Commission had to record them? Mr. Porter. Yes, sir; they all had to be recorded with the Dawes Commission, and then they were sent over to my office to be deliv- ered by me to the person entitled to them. Xow that was the i^ractice and the course up to last January, when all at once it stopped. We had the allotment deed, with the exception that they made them here, for we never had a roll of the Creek Nation in the chief's office. We ought to have it, but we never have had it. I don't know what the rea- son is for that, but they have never furnished it. There is two thou- sand people that we don't know who the deeds belong to, and neither does the Dawes Commission, any more than the man in the man in the moon knows who they belong to. Q. How was that governed or done? — A. Those deeds were made out by the roll that the Dawes Commission made. Q. Then the Dawes Commission had a roll ? — A. Yes, sir ; Congress authorized them to take our old rolls and determine AA'hich were citi- zens and which were not citizens and to add to them any persons they should find that were not enrolled. Now, we never had any roll, and no doubt the Dawes Commission had authority finall}' that if anj^ person — any citizens of the Creek Nation — did not apply for a deed and never selected an allotment, the Dawes Commission evidently thought that they had, or should have, authority to set off allotments for these persons. That is the way I suppose it was, for a great many of our people did not want any allotments. There was a good many that did not know about it in the first place, and some did not want 642 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. them that did know about it; but finally nearly all took them, and at the last there was a residue of them that they could not get in in any way in the world unless they arrested them and brought them in, and where the deed was sent to them they sent it back or would not take it out of the office ; so they had all kinds of trouble over the mat- ter trying to make them take tifie deeds that they did not want. Now, I mean that I sent them, and they would do that — for I sent them myself — I don't know that the Dawes Commission ever sent any at all. They may send them now — I don't know about that — but at the time I am referring to I sent them; but it was satisfactory to these people. Well, when they were all located and delivered that could be found, we find that we have a lot of these deeds that appar- ently don't belong to anybodj^. Now, these rolls that were authenti- cated by Congress were rolls that were made five or six years before, and the people on these rolls died, in my judgment, ten or fifteen years before, and some perhaps four or five years before. Now, the people as a rule took these deeds reluctantly, and, as I say, some of them wouldn't take them ; but the ones that wouldn't take them felt that they were on the rolls anyway, and it did not make much dif- ference for all on the rolls were entitled to allotment if they had to take them. The Dawes Commission tried to sift the rolls, but it was impossible, for how could they do it when the people would keep out of the way. I am just telling you about it so you will under- stand that there are now in my office a great many deeds that don't belong to any living person. By Senator Teller: Q. Do you think the people named in them are dead? — A. Yes, sir; I know jjersonally that many of them are dead, and then there are some of them have two names, ai .[ there are deeds for them there in both names. I knoAv of instances where people under different names — the same person under different names — ^has deeds there for him, and where the same person under different names has taken his allotment under each name; and I know of that occurring in different towns and also right in the same town where the same person under different names has got an allotment under each name. Q. So that person would get two deeds? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And two allotments? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And would get a deed for each allotment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that common? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It is common for an Indian to have two different names? — A. Yes, sir ; it is not uncommon. Q. Are there many such instances ? — A. Plenty of them have two names, and some of them have two or three or four names. Q. How is that — what is the cause of that ? — A. Well, to illustrate, in the first place he will have a boy name, a name that he is known by as a boy, and as he grows up and performs some achievement he has another name given him growing out of that achievement or con- nected with it in some way ; and then when he becomes a great man another name is given him. You see that titles improve with age in the Creek Nation. Now, if the matter of delivering these deeds were left with the chief's office, where it used to be, I believe that we could deliver the deeds better than they can be delivered from the office of the Dawes Commission. We are Indians, and we know each FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 643 other much better than white men do, and for that reason I believe we could do it much better. I don't know why the delivery of them was stopped through our office. If there had been any reason for arbitrarily discharging me, as it Avere — well, I don't know what the reason is. Mr. Bixby has never told me what his reason was, and all I Imow about it is that he has never returned any of them to my office since the first of January. Q. You think that the chief ought to deliver them? — A. Yes, sir; for he is the one to do it. Under the law of Congress he is desig- nated as the one to do it. Q. Has the law been changed ? — A. If I or my office had done any- thing Q,. Has the law been changed? — A. It was to be delivered under- the Secretary of the Interior. Taking the two acts together, the act provides that certain lands, the remainder or residue of the lands after all allotments have been taken and the schools and public buildings have been taken — they go with the lands around them — and it is provided that it should all be sold by the Secretary of the Interior, and title should issue in like manner as other titles issue; but it goes further and says " shall be delivered under his direction." Now, how it is stated is this — it says in accordance with law, and the Secretary says he may designate somebody other than the chief; and taking it altogether it is all right, unless I am unworthy, and if I am, my people would not demand that I should deliver tliese deeds. Q. How many have you delivered? — A. I have delivered a little over 14,000, and there may be 3,000 left there including infants, for there is a lot of infants v/hom I have never seen, you know ; I mean I have never seen the deeds for them. Q. You mean the deeds for their allotments have never been sent to you? — A. No, sir; I think in order to carry out the legality of the settlement — I think that usually when a person receives these ~ deeds — I think that in doing that or by doing that he relinquishes his right to the remainder, for it was held in common. We have their signatures taken for every one of them that was delivered, and parents took it for their children by filing their letters of guardian- ship. That was the way it was done, but it is not done that way now. Now, we ought to have a roll of these people. We have not got one as I said before, but Ave ought to have one, and the Dawes Commission should furnish it. There is no reason Avhy we should not know who all our people are. We used to knoAV, but since the Government has taken charge we don't know anything about it. Now, I want to know why I can't turn over these deeds when the law says I shall. I want to know Avhy I couldn't turn them over as Avell as Mr. Bixby. I am pretty sure that I could do it as well, if not bet- ter, than he can. I haven't anything much to do, and he has a thou- sand different things to do that ought to keep him busy. I know the people and I think I am qualified to do it — — Q. And he does not know the people at all? — A. Well, I don't know. He knows some of them, of course, but he can't know as many as I do. There was an Indian, Abbot Burgess, came into my office two or three days ago, and he wanted to get a deed and he stated that he was in the office of the Dawes Commission to see about it, and he was told that he would have to go home and write a letter 644 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. and get certain evidence to show that he was the guardian — ^the legal guardian — of his own child, and that when he had done that they would send it by mail or express. Now, that man is a member of the council, and is well known, and he thought it was an unreasonable thing to do. The fact is, gentleman, that no Indian gets much con- sideration in that office. I have been treated so in there that I don't feel like going there only when I can't avoid it. They don't know where these people live, and they can't deliver them to the right par- ties. If you have any business there with them perhaps you can get it transacted and perhaps you can't. They don't seem to think it is anything to make a man tramp up and down the road waiting their pleasure. If you live 100 or 200 miles away it is all the same — come back some other time, for we can't do it now, and so it goes. It is / expensive traveling around , and it is not everyone that is able to do it. I think that we should get some consideration in these matters. This man that I told you about came here in person to get it, for he was informed officially that it was here, but he didn't get it, and there was a lot of red tape to unreel before he could get it. Now, that is my comjDlaint. These deeds are all here uncalled for in my office, and the Lord knows hovf many more there is in Mr. Bixby's office, and I think the nation has a right in demanding to know where they are going or what is going to be done with them. They represent a whole lot of land and are of great value. I really think that neither the Secretary of the Interior or even Mr. Bixby ought to assume to deliver them without the authority of the nation. The Chairman. In other words, if these allotments were unlaw- fully made they should be canceled? — A. Yes, sir; that is what we think. Q. I think there can be no disputing that? — A. That is what we think. I just want to call your attention to these things. There are many things that I could call your attention to that might be worth while, but I did not make any memoranda of them, and it is hard to think of them at all at once. But these things — the school question and the question of these undelivered deeds — are matters that should be attended to, for the nation is interested in the matter. I expect the same is true of the other nations too. Q. So your position is that if these allotments were made to per- sons wrongfully, or made to persons who do not exist, they should be cancelled? — A. Yes, sir. Q. For they take just that much from the property of the Creek Nation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Diminish its assets by just that much? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And your iDosition is that neither Mr. Bixby nor any one else has a right to dispose of them without the knowledge of the Creek Nation or some information of that action being given to the nation? — A. Yes, sir ; that is our position. Q. Well, that appeals to me as being rather a reasonable propo- sition. Senator Teller. And to me. Senator Brandegee. To me also. Senator Clark, of Montana. No one will disagree with that propo- sition. — A. I have delivered fourteen-seventeenths of the deeds in round nmnbers and no complaint was ever made against me or any thing I did that came to my ears, either by any Government officer FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 645 or any Indian. This has been going on for four or five years — my delivering these deeds — and I Avill say further that no complaint was ever made by any white man who bought a lot yet about the way the business was done, excepting in cases whei'e they were sent on for approval and we could not get them l^ack very quick. Q. Are they delayed sometimes? — A. Oh, yes. Q. What is the ordinary extent or duration of that delay? — A. Oh, it sometimes takes five or six months before they make the rounds. Senator Teller. That was not your fault? — A. No, sir; as soon as they came back to me I forwarded them. I took their post-offices and sent it to them right away as quick as I got it. I did that and took their receipt for it. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. Now, you say you have not a copy of this roll ? — A. No, sir. Q. Has the Dawes Commission a copy of it? — A. Yes, sir; I sup- pose they have the original. Q. Have you ever asked the Dawes Commission for a copy of this roll ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What did they say ? — A. They promised to give me one. Q. Which they did not do ? — A. No, sir ; they did not do it. They had three cojjies of the roll made. I heard Mr. Bixby say to the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs in reply to Mr. Clapp — who it was, I think, said that there was no reason why those people should not have access to the roll or a copy of it, so that they could know who were adjudged citizens of the country and inherited the estate — and he said, Mr. Bixby said, that we should have it ; but we have not got it. I can't say why we haven't got it, but there may be some reason why that was not clone. The Chairman. Well, we will find out about it right away. A. Thank you. Now, gentlemen, I want to say this : If the delivery of these deeds was taken away from me because of any fault on my part or any wrongdoing on my part, I want the Secretary or whoever has charge of it to say so, for I don't want to be condemned without a hearing; and it looks to me like their action amounts to that. It is not right to condemn a man without giving him some sort of a hear- ing. I don't know how it is, but the treatment I have received I consider to be a reflection on me, to say the least. I was told by Judge Smith that the only reason he could see why it was done was that the other chiefs were ojDposed to it. Q. The chiefs of the other tribes? — A. Yes, sir. Q. But you do not know that that is the reason ? — A. Oh, no, sir ; I don't Imow anything about it. That is what Judge Smith said, but I don't know that is right. I don't know why they should object to it. I never had any trouble with them. I never disagreed with them or any of them about anything unless I knew I was right, and when I know I am right, as a question of principle I will stick to it, and if it offends others I can't help it. I have always tried to follow that course. I will say this : That I never have brought a thing up with the Department Avhere we differed and reasoned it out but what they eventually adopted mine. Now, that may sound rather fishy, but it is as true as it is that I am sitting here, 646 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Do you know whether or not the other nations have copies of their rolls? — A. No, sir; I do not. I think they come here and sign the roll and then go home. Now, I have a record of everything that has been done here in my office, and I am not ashamed of it. It is open at any time to the inspection of any Government official. All my acts in my office have been open and aboveboard. There has been nothing concealed and nothing to conceal. It is all there a plain record of everything, open, as I say, to the inspection of any Govern- ment official, and it is also open to any Creek citizen. Now, that is about all I have to say. I hope that you will take all these things into your consideration. You will have a record of your proceedings, and what I have said will appear in it, I take it, and if you are in doubt about anything, I appeal to that to set you right. That is all, gen- tlemen, I have to say. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Governor Porter, did I understand you correctly when I under- stood you to say that the Indians down here in the Creek Nation would have preferred to remain under the tribal form of govern- ment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is a fact that they would have preferred to retain their tribal form of government ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You spoke just now of the Creek Nation — could you say now whether the same is true of the other Indian nations or tribes? — A. Well, I could not say as to all of them, but I believe the same thing is largely true of the Cherokee Nation ; and I will say further as to the Choctaws that there are a great many of them have told me the same thing ; but I would not undertake to say what the sentiment of the other nations are, as a whole, for I don't know. Q. That is all. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Well, if that was the case, why did you not remain under the old government? — A. You will remember that you and Senator Piatt and some other Senators came here and I handed you a paper which the Creek Council prepared, passed, basing their refusal on and in which they gave their reasons for it. You remember about that, don't you ? Q. Yes, sir ; I remember. — A. I think you gilso remember that they started in there, that it Avas their deliberate judgment; I remember and know just what was in it, for I drew it up myself at the request of the committee of 15, and I know it was universally Senator Teller. Well, I want to add for your information that I sided Avith you on that proposition, and I will say that I was no niore in favor of this present system then than I am now. I was against it then and I'm against it now. — A. If it was necessary for them to take a part of the country why didn't they say so ? We had no idea that things would be managed as they have been, not the slightest idea or we never would have consented to it, never in the world. This matter of a sale was never put in the treaty, but when the Com- missioners came down here they said that a few of us were nionopo- lizing the whole country, and that was true, for there were white men coming in here and getting leases on about everything there was in FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 647 sight. Kansas City men in cattle companies were coming in here and leasing the country in large leases, and they are the ones that made the trouble when it came to canceling their leases; but that commission had no right to come down here and change the laws and the condition of affairs down here. We entered into the treaty and they came down here and it seemed that the stipulations of the treaty did not have much weight with them. The intention all the while was that they should all hold the land in common and not in sever ■ idty. All the treaties say that. There is not one that says anything else. All the laws we passed said it and, really, the reason why Con- gress changed it was because some ^^hite men came in here and got up that law and railroaded it through the council — that was the first of it. Q. Through j'our own council ? — A. Yes, sir. We were ignorant in these days. We did not know anything about oil or gas or coal then, or their value, so they hadn't much trouble in getting it through ; but if we had knoAvn ju.st what it meant they never Avould have succeeded. We did not know anything about minerals in those days. All we knew was about cows and grass, for we all had their cattle down here and grazed thousands of them for 5 cents an acre. That was the way it was started and after it was done for a while that way it was difficult to raise the price ; but I want to say this further, that the Indians did not sectionize their country for the purpose of selling it. They believed, the wiser of them did, that the time would come when they would have to come down out of the hills and mountains and settle on these beautiful prairies and make their homes there, and that to do that there should be some boundary lines. We belie^'ed that the time would come when that would be done and that homes and churches and schools would be built and it would be the homes of a busy and peaceable people who would hold their lands just as they always had held them, and not continue to live like they were then. Well, it isall right, I suppose, for we have never, apparently for many years now, had anything to live for. We never had any real assurance since first our fathers came in contact with the white man that we would have any permanent residence. It was move and move, build a home here only to abandon it in a few short years, and then move on farther and build another only to have to abandon that, and grad- ually the people lost their desire to build homes and settled down into a kind of nomadic existence, and then we came out here and for a few years it looked as if we at last had found 2^eace and rest, but gradually the old conditions again confronted lis, and now the same old conditions exist again, no man knew where his home was. It might be that he Avas allotted the land that he had occupied for a generation or two, and it might be that it was somewhere else and he would have to go on a hunt for it. I will say to the credit of the grafters that they did one good thing in carrying out the policy of distribution in severalty of the land. He has taken the ignorant and has found good allotments for them, and has paid them a little money. He has been a large factor in the work of carrying this out, and if the purpose was in getting the land in- such shape that it could be sold out, you owe Mr. Grafter a debt of gratitude that will be hard to discharge. Q. You mean that he has assisted the Government in carrying out this policv ? — A. Yes, sir. 648 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. That is all. — A. Mr. Herrington wants me to call your attention to this — that our rolls, the last ayb knew of them — and in the interim, I think there has been as many deaths as births — we haven't the statis- tics in regard to that, but we think they would just about equalize each other — but according to our rolls, the last we knew of them, there was 14,500 people enrolled, and now there is over 17,000. By Senator Long : Q. Did that include freedmen? — A. Yes, sir. The Indians were 10,000 or close to that. In the old days we had no half breeds or freedmen — then everjr man was a Koman. Now we have over 17,000 it seems, and there are not many Romans left. Q. Including the new born ? — A. No, sir ; including them it would be about 19,000, I think. Q. That is in the Creek Nation ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't knoAv exactly what the number is? — A. No, sir; but Mr. Bixby would know how many. Q. Well, how are they divided as to blood? — A. 6,692 full bloods, 3,371 mixed bloods, 5,636 freedmen, and 1,586 new born, making 18,000, about, in all. Q. There are a good many freedmen? — A. Yes, sir; our freedmen have increased wonderfully. They have been increased by every imaginable means. They can get the required proof that they are of Indian extraction, that their granddady was an Indian or something like that. It is no trouble to get any kind of proof you want down here. They can do it every time. They come forth from the four quarters of the earth and employ a lawyer here to assist them, and they and the lawyer will get up the proof that slides them through, and on the rolls they go. It is as slick as grease. There is no reason why a lot of colored people can't organize to help each other through. Now, we have our own negroes down here ; we know them and they know us. We have always treated them right ; we have had a heavy enough load to carry, God knows, with them, but I don't see why we should be punished in this manner, by unloading criminals from other States on us, but that is what is being done. Q. Unloading what on you ? — A. Criminal negroes from other States. They can prove anything, those rascals can. Now, I think that we have pretty good niggers of our own here, but they are pretty different propositions from the niggers that come in from other States and jjrove their rights to enrollment and allotment as Indians. Now I don't know that there is anything that can be done, but I want you to know the situation, and if there is anything that can be done to relieve us I want you to see about it. If there is any remedy please let us have it, and if there is not, I suppose we will have to take our medicine. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. Don't your nation here keep any record of the births and deaths? — A. No, sir; not now. We have no roll. They took it away from us. Q. Well, do you not keep one now? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you not keep a record of the new deaths? — A. No, sir. Q. Why not? — A. The Dnwes Commission took away from us our rolls and we have none now. I will tell you what I have felt and I FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 649 ought not to have felt that way. I have said that I was conscious that I was impelled under the advance of civilization to sign the paper now that I know took the lifeblood of my people. Rejoicing over a celebration, I could not help but say it, for they asked me to make a speech, and I rejoiced with them, but all the time I knew that was what it was and this was what it would come to; and, gentlemen, I tell you now, as I tell my people, that I don't take to myself any pride in haA'ing made a treaty to divide up their lands, but I did it, and I am willing, as I have always been, to assist the Government in every way in my power to carry it out. When we agreed to do it and I saw that it could not be deferred, my idea was to do it at once, if we were going to do it, for that was the will of the Government, and as it was I realized that we had no means or power to resist. There was only three ways of resistance, and none of them were practicable — one would be to fight, and we couldn't do that, for Ave would have been destroyed right away; another was to emigrate, but if Ave had done that we Avoiild have irrevocably lost our country by doing that, and anyway there Avas no place to emigrate to that avouIcI have bettered our condition ; and the third Avas to haA^e refused to do anything — just join ourselves together like boys bucking wood and be kicked out of the way. This matter Avas discussed, and in fact we came to the con- clusion that there Avas no Avay out of it ; that a situation confronted us that Avas onh' soluble by one process and that Avas to accejjt it and make the most of it. Noav, that is all that made me accept the posi- tion of chief, Avas to bring about that solution and see as far as lay in my power that every person, Avhether Indian, half blood, mixed blood, freedman, or negro should get what was coming to him and no more ; for if he was a citizen he had a right under the treaty to haA'e it — all except the freedmen — I Avas Avillihg that he, too, should come in under that treaty, but in equity I did not feel that he had any such right. Thirty or forty years ago our old people agreed to do it, and I remem- ber saying that Ave had better take and have the credit of doing for our less fortunate brothers an act that might be construed as charity and divide up with them, and in doing so I belicA^e Ave are entitled to take credit to ourselves for being more generous and humane than any other people in the United States have been or ever Avill be again, for Avhile the North freed them, Ave not only freed them, but we divided up our property Avith them equally, man for man and woman for woman and child for child, and that is something that nobody else did. That is all. We Avill submit some papers later on, but first we have to go down to the office and prepare them. The Chairman. All right. Governor, Ave would be pleased to receive and consider anything you choose to submit. I see Mr. Bradley in the room. He has stated to me that he Avould like to be heard. Mr. Porter. I would like to suggest to the committee that there is ■one gentleman here who is the chairman of the house of kings, and he wishes to say something. He is a full-blood Indian, although he looks like a Avhite man, but he is a full blood. The Chairman. After Mr. Bradley Ave will hear from him. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt I 42 650 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. STATEMENT OF ME. C. M. BRADLEY, OF MUSKOaEE, IND. T. Mr. Bradley. My name is C. M. Bradley. I live here. Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I don't pose as a speech- maker — in fact, I never tried to make a speech, and I couldn't make one if I tried, and when a fellow knows his limitations he is not very likely to make a fool of himself. So knowing that I am not cut out for making speeches I will try and proceed and give you a plain, unvarnished statement from the " grafter's " side of this question. I feel that it is my duty to do this after listening to all the reflections that have been cast upon so-called " grafters " and from having heard of a great many which I did not have the pleasure of listening to but which were reported to me. Under these circumstances I feel that I owe it to myself and in my own protection and the protection of the people I represent to say something in my own and their protection. Now, gentlemen, I propose to start out and make a short statement, and when I am through if you gentlemen want to ask me any ques- tions I will gladly give you any information in my power to give. I feel that I ought to have considerable information that might be of benefit to you. I suppose I have bought more land, and leased more land, and have come in contact with more citizens of the Indian Territory than any other single individual in it in the last five years. I want to say here that my first exploit in a business way here in the Territory was when 35 citizens and myself and a few others of my friends, who had a small amount of money amongst us, joined our forces and organized this land company. Q. This company you have now ? — A. No, sir ; at first it was purely a real estate company that we organized, and then later this company that we have now was organized. Mr. Porter. Like the Creeks, as you progressed you got interested in other lines? Mr. Bbadley. Yes, sir ; that is true. Like anyone else we were not in business for our health. Like anyone else we went after the business and tried to make money and we did make money. We flattered ourselves that we were hustlers and we went after the busi- ness. We bought land and got it any way we could without violating the law, and as cheap as we could, and we took that land and adver- tised it and brought people in here — farmers — and sold that land to them at a price you bet every time more than we paid for it. That, we considered, was the only way to do, for if a fellow buys land and sells it for less than he gives for it, well, anyone will be able to tell he won't last long, and we intended to last a good, long while if we could, and I guess we can. That is the way we started out at first ; we did not have much money and we couldn't operate on a very extensive scale, so we tried to turn things as often as we could and make as good a profit as we could, and w succeeded reasonably well, in fact we had no cause to complain. Well, as we turned deals we kept looking out for more business, and to get it we looked out and our vision or hori- zon took in a more extensive landscape, and as distant fields always look greener we tried our hands at that and got stung, sometimes pretty bady stung. Well, we were green then and hadn't experience, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 651 but we know more now, but we get stung now and then yet. "Well, we went after the business right along. We got the best local talent we ■could find to help us. We knew that the negroes could sell their land and we went after that and we went after the Indians whose restric- tions could be removed, and took in their land ; in fact, it did not make much difference what kind of blood it was, mixed or any other land, we went after their land, and if we could get it we turned around right away and tried to sell it, and did sell the most of it to actual farmers who are to-day living on that land and making something out of it, which is something the Indians and freedmen, niggers and half bloods, wouldn't have done. In doing this we were under the im- pression that we did the country a service, and at the same time did ourselves some good. That might have been a mistaken notion, but we had it and still have it. Now, about these restrictions on the full bloods. We figured out, or tried to figure out, whether or not there was any way of getting around that restriction business. We took legal advice on it, and the best local advice we could get at that time was that it could not be removed at that time, and on that advice we proceeded and bought these titles, or what we considered as the tenta- tive title, and had contracts that when the Indian got the fee to the land he would transfer it to us. We took about 600 of these titles in that way, and as the Indians got their title we got ours. By the Chairman : Q. In what nation was that ? — A. In the Creek Nation. Now, of course, we did not have the title in fee, but we had what may be called tentative titles. Q. Contracts for titles? — A. Yes, sir; contracts or agreements. We took them all over the Creek Nation wherever we could get them, and also in the Cherokee Nation ; but what we took in the Cherokee Nation were blank deeds. Q. But first you made these contracts with them ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind of a contract did you make with them? — A. Well, we don't make the same kind of a contract everywhere. West of the Frisco Railroad you get mixed up in a business proposition, and you have trouble with them. Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. I mean that over there west of the Frisco if you attempt to make a business proposition with the Indians they will all get mixed up and you can't do anything with them on the basis that you can talk business with a white man. It is mighty hard for them to understand a thing, and it takes a whole lot of talk to get them to understand it ; but when they do understand it, you can just bet your life that there is nobody anywliere that under- stands it any better — they understand it thoroughly and don't forget it. Now, over there west of the Frisco in making a deal we would only pay a small amount of money down, for they were not on the ropes there — they did not know the rules of the game so well as these other innocent red men. Right here let me tell you that if anybody tells you that the red man is an easy mark you can put it down for a fact that he is either a liar or a sucker, and the chances are that he is a liar. No one knows better than an Indian around in this country the value of what he has got, and if he sells it he gets the most there is in it for him every time; but I'll come to that later on. As I was saying, over there to the west of the Frisco at the time we began op- 652 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. erations there it was not necessary to pay clown more than a small amount, for you could get a contract out of them on that basis, and we were not going to pay out a whole lot of money when less would do. "We would take a warranty deed where we could get it, or a contract for one, the price agreed to be paid to be paid when the deed was exe- cuted and delivered. Now, we did not make written contracts with them over there, for if they don't understand a contract there is no use in having it in writing, and if they do understand it a verbal contract is better than a written one, and they will be more likely to stand by it. That is the way it was over there; but on this side of the Frisco it is a different proposition entirely. By Senator Clark of Montana : Q. What was the maximum price generally fixed in the deeds ? — A. $6.50 an acre. Q. That was the most that you paid ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And what was the minimum price? — A. Fifty cents an acre.. That is land that is worthless — it is mountain land and is worthless except for park purposes or for pasture, and it is not worth much for that. Q. How is that? — A. I say it is not even good for pasture. It is not much good for anything excepting that it would make a nice park or game preserve. By Senator Beandegee : Q. Did you take a warranty deed from the Indian? — A. Yes, sir. Q. "\Aliat guaranty did the Indian have that you would comply with your contract and pay him? — A. It was all done in the name of the company, and our company is solvent and responsible. As an indi- vidual I would feel that I was imposing on a company to make a con- tract of that kind. Yes, sir ; that is the way I would feel, as if I was — but our company is responsible, and it is able to fulfill every contract it has out or ever put out, and you won't find a man in the Territory who will say that it has not lived up to every promise that Avas made by anyone connected with it. Yet we are called grafters. It would be a mighty good thing if some of these people who are talking about us so harshly had as good a reputation among the Indians and their neighbors as we have with these same Indians, and I'll say further that I believe I could go out and deal with every Indian that we ever had any dealings with, if he had anything in our line that we wanted. Yes, sir ; my company is able financially to fulfill and perform every contract I have made, and that, too, regardless of whether I am living or dead ; so I don't see that anyone who made a contract with me was taking any chances, for he was as sure to get his money as he was that the sun would rise the next morning. Q. You get the deeds ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you record them ? — A. We do. Q. And the grantor has what ? — A. Nothing. Q. He gives you a deed on this small preliminary payment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And has a contract for the payment of the agreed balance ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the title is in your company? — A. Yes, sir; or a trustee for it. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 653 Q. And the grantor has what to secure him ? — A. Nothing but the agreement to pay him. Q. He does not have any mortgage back? — A. No, sir. Q. Well, what does he have for payment — what does he get? — A. A contract. Q. Well, what does the contract amount to? — A. It is valuable. You just ask any of them and see what they think about our contracts. Q. So that contract you consider to be a valuable consideration ? — A. I do. It has never failed to prove to be. Whenever they are redeemable they always get their money — never one failed yet. Q. But I understood you to say these contracts were oral, and were not written? — A. That is true, but there is always parties present that can prove them. By Senator Long : Q. Who are these parties ? — A. Our employees. Q. Your employees? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Men working for your company ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Ever anyone else? — A. I don't remember; possibly there has been at times. Oh, yes ; lots of times there are others present. Q. Who are these parties? — A. Citizens of the United States. Q. Well, who are they — that is too general — citizens of the United States don't mean anything in particular? — A. I can't say now; first one and then another. Now, I will tell you the way it is. These contracts are made generally now days in our office. These people know we are buying land and they will come into our office and we will talk it over, and there is always a crowd around our office, you know. Q. Well, these are employees of your company, or you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And these are the kind of witnesses there are to these con- tracts? — A. Yes, sir; and I will tell you that they are as decent and respectable men and have as high ideas of honor as any crowd that can be found around any office, whether it be here or in Washington. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. Is there a record of the transaction made — that is, made at the time? — A. There is always a place on a deed for a witness to wit- ness the execution of the deed. Now, I would like to explain that my idea or my motive in thus trying to talk to you men, or offering to give you a talk, is because I have two reasons for doing it, and one is, if you were a poor Indian and had nothing and would let this cloud hang over that title of yours after next August, for I tell you that our advice is that that law you passed last April is not worth any- thing at all, and we are willing to take our chances by going out and buying up these titles with that cloud on them, and if you gentlemen don't repeal that law we propose to go after it and bust it if we can, and we have pretty good advice that we can do it. Now, it is evident that a poor Indian or a poor farmer can't do that. He can't attack that law in good shape. It appears to me pretty evident that the only thing that can do it is a corporation that has resources and is able to stand until the thing is tested, and take its chances, or an in- dividual of large means. It means time and it takes money, and the man with $1,000 can't afford to attack a thing like that that has to go 654 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. clear up to the Supreme Court. It takes a corporation to do it, and we are willing to give it a try. We have not gone into this thing blindly. We had our eyes wide open, and if it is a trap we have walked into it all right. We won't blame anybody but ourselves, and we will take our medicine without a whimper. We don't be- lieve that you can issue these patents to these Indians on the theory and promise expressed — that the limitations should expire in five years, and then turn around and say after the patents are issued that the people holding them can't sell their land for twenty-five years. We don't believe it for a minute, and our lawyers don't either. So I say if this question is to be tested it is clear that it will not be the man with a thousand dollars or so and a wife and babies to shelter and pro- vide for that will do it. It will have to be a corporation that is able to make it, and I think we have just that kind of an institution. Now, they say that we are not paying what the land is worth. We are pay- ing what it is worth to us. If it is worth any more to anyone else, why don't they take it ? There is no strings to it. We don't have any monopoly on it. There are men in every country that would take 120 or 160 acres of land for a pony if they could get it, and they are mighty jealous if some other fellow goes out and gets it. It is not because it is wrong to do it — that is not where the trouble is — ^but what is a sin in others is a virtue in them. The Pharisees are not all dead yet by a good deal. By Senator Teller: Q. How much do you pay for it? — A. Any kind of a price. Q. You have no set price for anything? — A. No, sir; excepting in the case of these special contracts. We take it in just as cheap as we can get it. Q. Location has nothing to do with the price, then? — A. Oh, yes; of course it does. It depends on where the land is and what it is. But we often buy stuff that we never do see — just take it in, and that is all there is to it. Q. You buy land that you haven't seen? — A. Yes, sir; lots of times. There is lots of land that we have in this country that if any- one wants it we will just lease it to them for five years for nothing. Q. Well, you don't take that kind of land — ^you don't purchase that kind of land, do you — land that is worthless as an income- producing proposition? You don't take that, do you? — A. Oh, yes, sir — yes, sir — you bet. Take everything that comes along. We don't play any favorites ; we try to treat 'em all alike. [Laughter.] Well, that is the truth; I take it all in and treat them all alike. I'll tell you how it is. When I take a piece of land from one of them and let him have a little piece of money — for I don't let them have any more than I have to — I know that they will be back after more shortly, so I give it to them in sort of broken doses and as seldom as possible ; but, as I said, when I buy a piece of land from one of them Injuns he goes home and tells his neighbors ; he says, " There is Mr. Bradley up at Muskogee ; he gave me so much for my land. It isn't worth any- thing to me and I let him have it." He tells his neighbor that and that fellow tells the next man he meets, so the story has got out all around almost over the five nations that there is a fellow named Bradley up here at Muskogee that will buy almost anything, and they are coming in here from the four points of the compass, fairly FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 655 tumbling over each other to sell their land. Now, some of it is good and some of it ain't. I lose money — lots of it on some of it — but I make it up on the other, and a good deal more, too. It is not all cream in the business. Every now and then they work off a lot of skim milk on you. Q. You contract to buy this land from these people, but you don't put it in writing? — A. No, sir. Q. Why don't you have the contract reduced to writing? — A. It is not necessary. Q. Well, why is it not necessary? — A. He knows what it is. He understands. Q. The other party understands — the man you are buying from ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you know he knows it? — A. Well, I know from expe- rience that he knows it. I have never met one yet that wouldn't re- member it better than if it was all writ down in a contract with every " i " dotted and every " t " crossed. Perhaps these people can't read and write, and lots of them can't speak English, but, don't you forget it, when they once understand a contract, they don't forget it — not much. They are not the kind that forgets. Q. Do you keep a record of it in any book ? — A. Yes, sir ; of course I keep a record of all my deals. I wouldn't be able to remember half of them if I didn't. I do business on a pretty extensive scale. Now, they talk about my buying land cheap. I admit the charge. I do buy it cheap. I haven't any use for it if it don't come cheap. I am in the business to make money, but I'll keep to the letter any and every contract I make with everyone, if it busts me. I am in the speculative business, buying land that has a questionable title, the way things stand now. Of course I hope to get these titles straight- ened out in time. Wouldn't buy it if I didn't, but the fact is that the title to lots of land we buy is, to say the least or the most, question- able. It is such a title as the owner of the land couldn't take to an individual and sell for half what we give for it. We take chances on making the title good. We may do it and we may not. The stuff that we handle an individual wouldn't feel like fooling with it at all, but we have a corporation back of us, and it is a good, strong one with ample resources, and if it is necessary to litigate anything it is able and prepared to do it. Now, in that case, we feel that we are entitled to some credit for making a market for stuff that wouldn't have a market if it was not for us and people like us. This man who has something like that and he wants to realize a little money for some pressing necessity can't go to a bank or an individual or a cor- poration in the money-loaning business and get a dollar on the strength of that as security. He comes to us and he can do it — any of them can — and we make a contract with him by talking it over and he understands — we don't do anything until we know that he understands it — and then we give him a little book, and some money, and we put the amount of money down in his book that we pay him, and we put it down in our books charged to that man ; and then per- haps in sixty or ninety days he comes in again and is hard up again, and we give him some more money and charge it in his book and in our books. 656 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By the. Chairman : Q. You open a kind of an account with them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. AVhat do you do with the land ? — A. Just sit there and looli at it. Q. You hold it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And don't do anything with it ? — A. No, sir ; you can't do any- thing with it. You can't sell it again or lease it. It is there, and it will be worth something by and by, and whole lot more than we paid for it, and that is where we come in at. Q. How long do you expect to hold it? — A. Well, until sometime after next August, when we expect to turn it at a profit. We expect to do that to the people who will come in here. Now, gentlemen, let's look at this thing. They talk about " grafter," but the people who do that are influenced by two considerations — it is either jealousy or ignorance. If this business that I am in is a grafting game, then there is not a business in the world that is not a graft. It is all a simple business proposition — buy for as small a price as you can and sell for as big a price. That is the rule of the game the way I am trying to play it, and, as far as my observation goes, it is the rule of the game the way everybody else plays it. Q. Now, are you going to get another deed from these people when you pay them the balance? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Your purpose is to take a new deed? — A. Yes, sir. Now, they talk about getting restrictions removed. I never have advanced an Indian a dollar pending the removal of his restrictions but what he came straight to me when they were removed and sold it to me, and was good enough to appreciate the fact that I had been kind enough to him to advance him money when he didn't have anything. There is never a one of them that did not come straight to me and sell to me just as quick as they could. Q. Did j'ou ever have a case where you could not agree on the price ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Does that occur often ? — A. No, sir. Q. They take just what you feel disposed to give them? — A. No, sir ; not by any means. They have a good deal to saj' about what you will have to give them. It is a mistaken idea that these Indians don't know any business. Some of them are mighty full of business. Q. Full bloods? — A. Yes, sir; full bloods. If anybody takes them for fools he will probably Avake up and find that he has been the fool. You bet some of them are as full of business as anybody. AVhy, there is Calvin Backbone — he has land about 6 miles from here over there. I can see it from this window By Senator Long: Q. AVell, the necessities of the Indian usually bring you to an understanding with him there on the ground as to what the price will be? — A. Is that a question? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, I don't understand it. Q. The Indian is in need of something? — A. Certainly he is in need of something. They are always in need of something. That is their chronic condition. Say, do you know anything about Indians? Q. Something. — A. Well, I'll just bet you a ten that you never saw one in all your life that didn't want something and want it bad. Oh, pshaw ! what's the use in talking about it — everybody knows that. PIVE OlVILtZEt) TMBES. 657 They are dead stuck on getting money all the time. If they were as dead stuck on keeping it it would be a fine thing. Q. Well, is it not true that the more an Indian thinks he needs money, the less money he is willing to take for his land ? — A. No, sir. I have had Indians in Muskogee for as much as two or three days at a time hanging around trying to sell it, and they wouldn't take what was offered them, thinking they ought to have more. They would hang around the office here trying to get it. I tell you that when an Indian makes up his mind that he ought to get so much for his land he will come pretty near getting that much for it. before he will let it go. What he thinks is the right thing he will do, and if he thinks that so-and-so is the value of anything he has to sell, he will have to be mighty hard up before he will let it go for any less. Now, I want to say another thing; and that is, that the Indian, as a rule, is a mighty honorable fellow ; they think a whole lot of their word, and when they pass it you can come pretty near banking your last dollar on the fact that they will do it. Now, some of these so-called Indians — mixed bloods and the fellows that are daubed with the tar brush — haven't got the same ideas of honor. Some of them have, but lots of them will carry out their contract when it is profitable to do it, but the full bloods are a mighty honorable race of people; and I'll tell you another thing, that I'll give $1,000 to anyone who will find one of them — red, black, or variegated colors — that will say that I ever failed to carry out to the letter any and every contract I made with them. Why, gentlemen, it wouldn't be j)rofit- able to act any other way, and so I am honest because it pays to be. It is part of my capital down here among these people. It is estab- lished and they have confidence in it, and there won't be anything that this individual will do to shake that confidence; you can bet your last dollar on that. Q. You expect to have litigation down here? — A. Lord bless you, lots of it all the time. I have the best legal advice there is available — cheap screws don't do for me. Nothing but the best will do me, and I expect to have it all the time. People who buy as much land as I do, and of the kind that I do, can't expect to get off without lots of trouble, and so I am prepared for it. I have had some trouble already, and I know when you get into legal trouble what it means to you to have an incompetent lawyer. Q. So you have trouble and have had it already? — A. Oh, yes; lots of it. Take the case of these freedmen that came in here and sold me their land — why, 5 per cent of them went crazy. They were not crazy when they sold the land ; at any rate, didn't act lilre it or look like it, but as soon as they had sold the land and spent the money they began to go crazy — went as crazy as bedbugs. They will sell the land to anybody and sign receipts for it, and then they will go crazy. Several of them have done that with me, and the courts are pretty busily engaged just now in setting aside the deeds and turning the property to their crazy guardian that they have had ap- pointed. Oh, don't have any fears about the courts protecting them. That is dead easy — the dead easiest thing in the world is to beat the " grafter " in court. Why, I am an authority on that subject. This year is not dead yet, but I have lost over $5,200 in it on that crazy Freedman proposition. Now, if the Indian was incompetent he certainly could have that deed set aside. 658 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By Senator Beandegee: Q. Did you test these actions in court to set aside these deeds? — A. I did the best I can, but what is the use, for the jury will be against you every time. Why, their whole families and all their neighbors will come in and swear that they are wild, raving maniacs, and they have to tie them in the house; and you haven't any show at all — no show on earth. Q. After all, you have to rely a good deal on their integrity when it comes to giving that second deed? — A. Well, not so much so, for this reason : Taking for granted that this deed that I have got is worthless and void, when the time comes to sell it he could sell it to ' Senator Long there if he wanted to and Senator Long would say to • him, probably, " You will have to square up with Mr. Bradley before I will buy this land," and the Indian wouldn't want to do that, or couldn't do it ; therefore I stand a pretty good show of being able to get my money back, in any event. Now, gentlemen, I want to say something else to you. I want to say to you that these restrictions which you have put on these people for their benefit, as you thought, has really been a detriment to them. If there had been no restrictions at all, except on the homestead, I believe that these people would have got from one-third to one-half more than they have got for their property. They are not going to be able to keep their surplus land any way. Thev will get rid of that some way or other, and I think that since that is the case they ought to be permitted to get the most they could for it. This long-range government has not been of much advantage to the Indian; it is a paternal sort of government and it don't work any hetter here than elsewhere. It is a kind of long-range guardianship, I might say, and it don't really protect at all. Q. Well, then, I gather from your remarks that you are opposed to these restrictions? — A. I am. Q. What suggestions have you to make in regard to the removal of restrictions? — A. Well, now, I am a little backward about making suggestions. I am afraid that you might think I had some ul- terior motive, and it might be prejudicial to what I think is right and ought to be done. Now, as I said I am in the business of buying and selling land, and I ought to know something about the way this restriction business works. I don't think there is anybody in the Territory or in the Interior Department that knows any more about it than I do, and I can tell you what I think about it, and then you can fix it up to suit yourselves. I don't know that you will attach much credence to what I say, but I can't help that, for I will tell it to you just as it is. Q. We would like to hear your statement of it, and we may give it more weight than you anticipate. By the Chairman : Q. How long have you been here ? — A. Seven years. I have had a pretty strenuous time of it, and I think have learned more than some who have been here seventy years. Q. Where are you from ? — A. I am from a little bit of everywhere. I came from Oklahoma to the Indian Territory, and I was born and brought up in Missouri until I was eight years old, and since that time I have been in Texas and Oklahoma and Missouri, and I came here about seven years ago from Oklahoma. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 659 By Senator Long: Q. And you have been in trouble ever since ? — A. Yes, sir. I want to say further that I don't want to take any issue with anybody. We have had dealings with what we consider to be over 500 full-blood Indians. We don't know whether all of them are actually full bloods, but that is what they pass for. There was one of them at the office to-day as fair as I am or any of you gentlemen, but he said he was a full blood, and he is on the full-blood roll, and he has a brother that is on the half-blood roll; and I want to say this, that I have never yet seen one of these Indians but what would give one-half their estate to be a full-fledged American citizen; but I will say further that they don't want their restrictions removed as a rule, and why they don't want them removed I don't know. You take Jim and John, who are brothers; it is a cinch that this will be the way that that restriction proposition will be decided in each of their minds: It is a sure thing that Jim will want his restrictions removed, but he won't want them removed qff John, and, on the other hand, John will want them removed off him but kept on Jim, and that is the way it is. They all want their own restrictions removed, but they don't want them taken off anybody else. John does not want Jim's re- moved because he is afraid that he will have to go to work, and he would like to eat off him, and that is just the way it is as a full-blood proposition. I never sit down and talk with an Indian, excepting it is a Snake, and there is only about 220 of them out of a total full- blood population of about 7,000 Q. Do you talk or speak the Indian language? — A. Not much. Q. You can't talk their language? — A. Not much; only a little. 1 am too old to learn it. Q. And they don't talk English, do they ? — A. No, sir ; very little. Some of them can a little, but these Snakes as a rule they can't. Q. Well, you deal with those Indians through an interpreter? — A. Yes, sir ; sometimes they bring their friends in to interpret for them, but I don't know who they are. Sometimes I have an Indian boy that stays around the office a part of the time to do the interpreting, and I pay him 50 cents or $1 or so, now and then, for doing it. He isn't working for me exactly, but he hangs around the office a good deal of the time. Q. You have Indians in your employ on these different trips when you go out to look at the land? — A. No, sir; I don't look at the land. Q. You don't look at the land at all? — A. No, sir; I never look at land at all. Now, I know that seems strange to you, but it is a fact. Q. It does seem strange. — A. Well, when I explain it perhaps it won't be so strange. Now, that land has all been appraised by the Government, and I have a record in a book that shows what every 40 acres was valued at; therefore I know what the appraisement of it was, and I don't have to go and look at it. Q. You depend on the Government appraisal or valuation? — A. I do. Q. Your proposition is to hold this land until this question as to the title is settled ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And when the title is settled, then you propose to sell it? — A. Yes, sir ; if the title is settled the way I think it will be. It is utterly 660 FIVE CIVILIZED TElBEg. a speculative proposition. It can't be called legitimate business, but my associates and myself are willing to take our chances with it. Q. And this business is all handled through a corporation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the capitalization of your corporation? — A. Well, we only have a capitalization of $112,000. Q- And where is it organized; under the laws of what State or Territory? — A. Our company is chartered under the laws of Okla- homa. We are operating now under the laws that govern corpora- tions in the Indian Territory. Q. What is the total sum that you will have to pay when you get all these titles? — A. Well, I can't tell you just what it will be. Of«« course we have a record of it in our office, but I can't say what it is without looking it up. I would not object to telling you if I knew, but I'll say this, that it will take a whole lot of money. Now, I am not able personally to pay all this money, nor is the corporation, but I don't hesitate to tell you that I am in touch with people wIk) will furnish me with an unlimited amount of money, so I am not worried about that jDroposition. When the time comes to pay for it, the money will be forthcoming; all they want is for me to furnish a good title, and the money will be forthcoming. Q. But you are now buying these questionable titles? — A. Well, that is the way it may appear to some people, but I don't believe there will be much question about them after next August. Q. Have you been discussing the question of whether or not the act of last spring supersedes the one passed before that time, in 1902 ? — A. Yes, sir ; decidedly we have been discussing it and consid- ering it very deeply. Q. And you have come to the conclusion that it is safe to buy these titles? — A. We have come to the conclusion that it was a mighty good gamble to take these tentative titles pending a fmal decision of that question. I will say this: That if I had thought or had been advised that that law which tied up these titles or tried to tie them up for twenty-one years, I would have abandoned tlie matter long ago if I had been advised that that law was constitutional. Q. Do you say that your lawyers advised you that that action on the part of the United States Congress in attempting to raise the ]imit of these restrictions to twenty-one years was not constitu- tional ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is the advice that we have received. They said it was a farce — a complete farce. That is the way they told me it was. Senator Teller. Well, I agree with you and j'our lawyers ; I think it was, if anything, worse than a farce. — A. I know you did, and that had great weight with us. We think you opinion is sound and worthy of being followed, even if we didn't have to pay for it. I will say further, Senator Teller, that I have your remarks on that subject made in the United States Senate — I have them up there in my office in a scrapbook, and I am depending on that a great deal. Senator Beandegee. Hoav many acres of this land have you in the Creek Nation? — A. Well, I got out a report the other day on that, and it showed that we had something like 100,000 acres, and besides that, there is the f reedmen's land — we have a good deal of it. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 661 By the Chairman: Q. Did you file tliat report with the Secretary of the Interior? — A. No, sir; for the reason that it was none of the Secretary of the Interior's business. Q. But if is filed with your company? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Claek, of Montana : Q. Your company in raising funds for the continuance of this business, would it be able to hypothecate any of these titles such as you have described for that purpose ? — A. Well, I doubt if you could get money from banks on them, but fortunately I don't have to go to a bank for it. I went down to St. Louis and saw some parties there who have ample funds, and I explained the situation to them and told them just what I was doing and they told me that when the time came and I wanted the money I could get all I wanted if I needed it. They examined it and notified me that they would advance me money on that proposition. That is Avhere I went to look after backing to carry this proposition out. Q. Then your judgment is backed up by the local opinion of law- yers here and also of financial men ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller: Q. You did that after the last Congress had adjourned, or after the last session? — A. Yes, sir; I anticipated that the Secretary of the Interior would take the stand he did, and I was cautious to see that the patent was actually issued to every one of these people I dealt with. I believe that law will bind these people who have taken their patents since that Curtis act was passed, but I don't be- lieve it can affect the ones issued before that time — that is what I am banking on, and every one that I have got was issued before that time. As I say, it might be that the ones issued since that law was passed last April would hold, but I haven't any of them, so it is im- material to me. I think it will be a bad thing if there are any that are in that shape. It will bottle that country up for many years. There is no doubt about it, it is the worst thing that ever happened. I don't take any chances on these patents issued since that time; I take the conditional patents that were issued under the law of 1902. I feel safe with them. Q. But you have your doubts about the others? — A. Yes; I don't want them. Twenty-one years is too long to wait. Q. So then I gather from what you say that your lawyers have advised you that the United States could not legally modify that contract of 1902, or any patents issued under it, by a subsecjuent enactment or legislation ?— A. You are right. That is just what they have advised me. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Have you a form of a contract that you give to these men ? — A. Oh, no; no special form. 1 just write them up in each case. I haven't any blank. Q. Each contract is written up to comply with the facts in that particular case ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And so they vary in different cases ?-— A. Yes, 3ir ; it is a,ll according to the district the land is in and wliat is going to be paid on it. In some cases we won't agree to pay anything, and in others 662 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. SO much, and somewhere else so much, and there is lots of things that differ about them. In fact there are no two trades alike, and so we just write out the terms of a contract, when we have one that way, on a slip of paper in a brief form and give it to them. It is just as satisfactory to them that way as any way, for they can't read it any- way ; and if they want to know what is in it they have to go to some- one else to read it anyway. By Senator Teller : Q. Well, after you have made these contracts with them, and paid down the money that is to be paid, do they come back again? — A. The Indians? Q. Yes, sir.— A. What for? Q. For anything. — A. Yes, sir. Q. What do they come back for ? — A. For money. Q. They come after more money ? — A. Yes, sir. .Q. When and how often do they come? — A. Oh, that depends on the man. Some of them come in three months and some of them will be around after it in ten days. You have to pay them twice. Senator Teller; some times you pay them at night to do a thing, and then you have 'to pay them again in the morning when they do it. It is a bad thing to pay an Indian anything until you are through with them, for if you are foolish enough to do it you'll sure have to do it again. Why, ajn Indian has to be paid every time he signs anything and every time he does a thing for you. The only thing that goes with them in business is money. I have had a lot of experience with them, and I think I know how to handle them. I never pay them any more than I can help, for I feel that if they haven't got it they can't spend it, and it don't matter how much you paid them, they could hardly sleep until it is spent. Money don't seem to do them much good. They haven't any idea of what it is for except to spend, so I have come to feel that he is just as well off without it as he is with it, and acting on that belief I give -them just as little as I possibly can. I don't know that I can tell you much about these people. They are pretty much all alike down here. There is not much difference between these mixed bloods here and the people in Arkansas. They are all about alike. You take the " hell billies " and the " rough necks " in Arkansas — the ones that live in the hills — you take them and put restrictions on them and in one hundred years where would they be ? Why they'd be eating each other. Gentlemen, I am in dead earnest about this. I appeal to you in the name of my wife and baby to give us fair treatment, so that my boy will not look back in reading history and see that his ancestors were a race that needed guardians in the opening years of the twen- tieth century, and that the great American recognized them as an inferior race. I say, it is not right; it is un-American. I know that the belief prevails that the full-blood Indian is inferior; that he has no business sense; that he is not competent to manage his affairs and all that ; I hear that so much that I myself repeat it, but is he? He is an American, and will be a good one if you will give him a chajice. And I say that we people who talk that way are sim- ply deprecating this nojple race of people — noble in every fiber and instinct of their being. I say, give them a chance and they will be as good Americans as any — peaceable, law-abiding, and industrious — FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 663 but they must have a chance. They can't be these things until they are released from these leading strings by which you have annexed them to your apron. I ask you as citizens of this country and who have a pride in this country and its future, for God's salie to give these people freedom instead of stifling and choking their manhood and independence to death. I don't care, as far as my future or the future of my pompany are concerned, whether you do or don't do anything about that, but I do say to you that the more you restrict these people the more you suppress and discourage them, and all that they want is to be treated as equals^ — treat them as brothers, as citi- zens able to stand up and enjoy the rights of American citizens, and see if they won't respond to it in a way that will surprise you. And I say again, that I am not appealing to you for myself or my company, or the future of myself or my company, Avlien I say again to you to give these people the rights of American citizenship. By the Chairman : Q. Well, these Creek representatives say they are satisfied with these restrictions. — A. Yes, sir, and they ought to be very well satisfied — indeed they should. Do you mean to tell me that these men are representative of the full-blood element ? Of course they are satisfied — there is not one of them but has had his restrictions re- moved — every last man jack of them has. Q. But the full bloods say that they are satisfied. — A. Have you had a full blood before you ? I haven't seen one or heard of one. Q. We had them at Vinita, and that was their wish there. — A. They don't know what they want. They think they do. They don't know what freedom to contract and buy and sell means. These men that come before you here and will come before you at other places and talk in favor of keeping these restrictions on, are the educated ones, . and they are educated because they want these things off in their cases — that is the proof of their education. Restrictions — why every one of them has had them removed. If they couldn't get them re- moved — if they were fastened onto them so that they could not get away from them, I'll guarantee you'd hear each one of them holler — why, they'd holler until they could be heard to the Arkansas River. Holler — well, I should say yes. I know 'em and they know me. Its funny how many people there are in this world that like to be able to do something — ^have some privilege or something that their neighbors don't have — or be able to do something their neighbors can't do ; and down here in this country it takes the form of lilting to be able to sell their property and keeping their neighbors from selling theirs. One of them is John and the other is Jim, and they want to sell their land, but each don't want tother to be able to sell it. They think they are the brightest people in the world — that they are the only ones able to care for themselves and all the rest of the world needs a guardian. Now, I tell you this, and at the same time I tell you that if these re- strictions were all swiped clean out of the way it would put me and my company right out of business. If you want to put us out of business I am telling you how to do it. Just remove all restrictions and throw everything wide open and out of business we go; but leave them on and we'll be in it right here at the old stand as long as that condition exists. Now, I flatter myself that I am more honest than they are. I tell you how to stop this business, and I tell them that if we are such 664 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. bad men as they represent, there is a way to put us off the road. If you want these people really and truly to get what their land is worth, taJie off these restrictions and then they'll get it. By, Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. I understand the full bloods don't want their restrictions removed? — A. I have reason to believe that a great ipany of them don't. Q. Does the question of taxation cut any figure in their wish? — A. I have every reason to believe that it does, but it is with the igno- rant ones, and they will remain forever ignorant if they are treated this way. It is like this: Take the question of citizenship. That is the thing that comes first of all, and I say that, while you call these . Indians citizens, they will not be impressed with what that means — that it is more than a mere word or name — if for twenty-five years their homesteads are exempt from taxation. If you want a man to realize that he is a citizen and feel its duties and obligations, put him where he has to pay taxes, and it adds a dignity to his feeling that can come in no other way. We don't want these Indians to be mere figures on the board — men in statue and outline only, mere voting machines, things that are not of any value or use except on election day. As it is and will be if this condition is kept up, they will be no better than the hoobes that lie around the swill shops and barrel houses in our cities, without individuality or a sense of responsibility, of no account in the calculations of anyone but the politicians, and then only at election time. Take off all these special exemptions. They are men ; take them and put them on their feet, and give them a good shake and say: "Stand alone now; you are men." Do you think they will ever know that they are men unless this be done ? Not in a million years. I know what I am talking about. Let them sell all their surplus land. If it is necessary, in your opinion, to make them keep their homestead, let them keep it, but on the condition that they pay taxes for it like anyone else. It has cost them nothing. It is jDractically a gift to them from the United States or their own nation, and the man that can't pay the little tax that would be imposed on it annually is of no sort of account and would not amount to anything anyway. Paupers are not the only people without homes. I know of people who have homesteads, and good ones if they would use them, who, to all intents and purposes, are paupers. Make them pay taxes. That is the way to make them know that they are men. Now, gentlemen, I don't know what you will do with this question. You probably will do the very reverse of what I avouH do, but I'll bet something that the time will come when you'll all admit that I am right. You have tried the course of protection and guardianship and leading and coddling for a long time, and you will see what it has led to; try treating them like men for a while and see what it will make of them. Just try it. I'll guarantee that you'll be surprised. All I have to say on that question further is that the matter of the payment of taxes on a homestead of eight or forty acres of land is not going to make or break anybody whether white, mixed, red, or freed- men, and I will say further, that it is not the fact that he doesnot have to pay taxes on his homestead that degrades the ladian — it is the other fact that he can't sell his land FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 665 By Senator Teller : Q. You think it degrades him because he can't sell his land? — A. It degrades him because you make a class of him, and, constructively, an inferior class. He knows all about our Constitution which says that " all men are free and equal," and yet you have put him in a class and say that he can't do certain things that every otlier man can do. Now, that is where the trouble is, and I know that these people are just as good as any other anywhere. I think mj wife was just as good as I was, and I was just as good as she was when I married her, and if I hadn't thought that I would not have married her — I married an Indian. Q. You married an Indian ? — A. I did. Q. A Creek? — A. Yes, sir. There should be no classes or distinc- tions or privileges either of class or race in this country — and you have made a class of them, and said practically to them, because you are of an inferior race you shall not do thus and so. Now, that has been put to you before, but I will try and impress it on your minds again. I think that if a man has 40 acres of ground and a two-room house on it and a single strand of wire around it, and has a pony and two pigs, that he is not doing very well. If he has had that land always — and much more than that — and that is all he has got out of it, he has not been doing A^ery well ; yet two-thirds of the land in the Creek country is held by people who have no more than that, and many of them not even that. If they have anything it will be the pony and the pigs, for they are strong on ponies and like pork. They won't come down out of the hills but will stay where the land is timbered and where they get patches of ground that they raise a little corn and garden truck amongst the rocks. They don't want much — very little does them, still if they had much they would let it go, they would not keep it. They won't come down into the prairies where their allotments are, frequently, and where their surplus is and live there where they could, perhaps, in time make farms. It is not their nature. They were born and raised in the hills as their fathers were before them, and that is where they want to live. Well, let them live there, for nobody is going to covet what they have there very much — at any rate not as long as there is good land to be got elsewhere. Q. Is that land agricultural land — any of it? — A. Yes, sir; some of it; but there is lots of timber on it, and it has to be cleared. You will notice in your travels through this country that they won't buckle down and clear the timber off the land like they do in the North — they are too lazy for that — so they will just girdle it and then they will plant their stuff around among the trees. Why they don't know what farming is. They want some good, sure-enough farmers mixed in with them to show them how to farm and how it pays to farm right. Q. Is the land well wooded ? — A. Yes, sir ; two-thirds of it has to be cleared before it can be farmed right, and it costs $5 or $6 an acre to clear it. Take the average tract of 40 acres in this country — it costs from $500 to $600 to put that in shape for farming. Q. Is the timber on the land valuable ? — A. No, sir. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. What kind of timber is it? — A. Oh, jack or post oak and scrub. Q. Is there any pine timber on it? — A. No, sir; not up in this section. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 43 666 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. It takes $600 to put how much of a tract in cultivation? — A. Well, that means 40 acres. Q. Is that calculation based on experience ? — A. Yes, sir ; we have put several of them in shape, and we know just about what it costs. It will cost that if you only put a fifty-dollar house on it and dig a well and fix it up so you can rent it ? Q. Is there any valuable minerals on that land? — A. Well, there was quite a rush into the Eed Fork region for oil, but it has not panned out very well; but over at Euchee there is a pretty good oil field. By Senator Long: Q. Are there many farmers coming in here in the last two or three years ? — A. No, sir ; .on the contrary there are more farmers leaving here at the present time than there are new ones coming in. There are not as many people in this country as there was a year ago. They get discouraged at the conditions and leave, and as a fact, land is harder to sell here to-day than it was a year ago — ^you could sell land a year ago at $15 an acre easier than you can sell it to-day for $12 an acre. These restrictions that were put on the land again have discouraged people. Wliy, you can't even lease a piece of land down here for more than a year, and you have to send off to Washington to see about that. People won't stand for that kind of condition. People are actually leaving this country now a good deal faster than they will come in; and I predict that the conditions will get worse instead of better if something is not done to relieve the con- ditions. Q. It is a good country ? — A. None better. Q. There is no question about the fertility of the soil? — A. None in the world. Now, about these restrictions — I want to say that the full-blood Indian suffers more than the freedmen do from that, for the reason that the Indian is back in the timbered country in the hills, and nobody Avants to bother his land because nobody wants it, for it takes so much to put it in cultivation — that is, his homestead is there; and his surplus, nobody knows — I mean he does not know Avhere it is at. I will warrant that two-fifths of the Indians in the Creek Nation could not tell you this — they could not tell you where it was unless you would get them a map and show them on the map where it is, and then all they would know about it would be the num- bers, and if some one would ask them where it was they would say: " Oh, it is number so-and-so, and it is out here north of JBrewster," or south of some other town, and they would tell you how many miles from the place it was. If they find the number and the town, and the direction from the town, and have a map — after that they can locate it on the map — but they never saw it and don't know a thing on earth about it. They don't live where their land is, at all. Most of the Indians that are filed that way were filed arbitrarily. Q. You mean that they did not file, but the Commission filed for them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where do these Indians live now? — A. Most of them live out there on Deep Fork and Euf ala ; they live as they always have, m towns or settlements. I know one locality over there in that sectiori where you can see a dozen houses all in sight of one another, and then you will go a dozen miles without seeing another house or habi- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 667 tation. They will gather together in these little settlements or clusters. Q. How do they live? — A. I don't know unless it is on what they get from fellows like me. Q. You don't know how they do live ? — A. No, sir ; it is a real mys- tery to me how they do live. They won't work. Q. Do they not farm? — A. Not to amount to anything. Some of them will have a little small patch of corn, and some of them are living with an uncle or a brother or aunt or uncle. God knows how they do live — but they are citizens, and they should be given every right of a citizen and then forced to carry his obligations, and if they can't do it let them go to the wall, as Chief Porter says. They cer- tainly won't be any worse off than they are now. They haven't any- thing now and they won't have anything then. Q. Well, they have their land, haven't they? — A. Sure, but they haven't any teams or anything to plow the land with, and it is not cleared so they could plow it if they had, and they are sittting around that way waiting until some soft-hearted cuss like myself comes along. Q. And they are living on you? — A. Oh, not all of them, but a good many of them are. We give them a little money now and then, but there are so many of them that we can't give them much. We have to be economical about the amount of money we pay them. If we didn't we would go broke mighty soon. Why, if I gave them all they want they'd bankrupt me in a week. Q. Well, when next August comes and you pay them their money and get the deed, what do you think they will do with the money ? — A. Oh, that's too easy ; you should ask me something hard. Q. Well, what will they do with it? — A. Hike off and spend it as fast as they can. That is what the majority of people do everywhere. It is not confined alone to this countrv. I know what you are driving at, but there is nothing in it. You give every citizen in the State of Arkansas a thousand dollars on Monday morning and on Saturday night two-thirds of them would be broke — they wouldn't have it. I am not apologizing for these people at all. They are wholly incom- petent, like most of the people are everywhere, as far as that is con- cerned. They are wholly ignorant and incompetent, but it is your fault, the way you have raised them and trained them. Bring your boy up in that way and see where he will finish. A nation, just like an individual, must be trained in the practice of the virtue of self- reliance and the power to do things for itself, but you haven't given these people a chance down here, and then a lot of demagogues and blatherskites come before you and say " you must protect the poor ignorant Indian against himself. He don't know the value of money. If he is allowed to sell his land, in a short time he will be without money and land, and you must protect him against his own improvidence." Well, what of it? He has the land and it don't do him any good, and as long as he has it it won't do him any good. If he is any good it will, and if he isn't it won't. He is no better off with it than he will be without it. Why is it that the great majority of the white men you meet haven't anything? Why is it that the great majority of the Indians haven't anything? Why is it that some white men accumulate property? Why is it that some Indians accumulate property? The reason is the same in both 668 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. instances — they are just like other people — there is no particular dif- ference in them. Now, do you imagine that you can legislate care and forethought into a man? Not in a million years. Throw away all such foolish notions. You have been trying it down here a good many more years than I have been on earth, and are you an inch ahead of where you started? Gentlemen, you are trying by your policy toward the Indian to reverse the laws of nature. Everything in this universe seeks its level — water runs down hill, and you can't make it run up hill — and so the Indian will have to find his own level. You may procrastinate and defer the time, but it will come, and nothing you or I or any legislative body can do will stave it off finally. Now, that is plain talk, but it is the truth, and there is not a man in this room but knows it is the truth with the bark on it. Of course, the Indians, as a rule, are inexperienced and ignorant, but how in God's name could they be anything else. Some of them are not. Take the ones who have been educated and have been guiding the local destiny of these people, they seem to have done reasonably well. They seem to be well able to paddle their own canoe, and they don't let anything that is good get away from them. But how is the Indian to become educated if you don't throw him on his own resources. You can't knock it into him in schools or colleges — there is only one place he can get it, and that is in the school that I got my education-^- experience and hard knocks and lots of them against the edges and corners of things in this world. Put him right up against it — let him go against it like we white men have to go against it, and if he is worth anything he will demonstrate the fact and be a better man for it. This is not the doctrine of philanthrophy, but it is the doctrine of common sense. Q. "When you buy this land do you take possession of it? — A. No, sir ; I don't fool with it at all ; I just leave it there in the shape it is in. Now I don't want to improve ^t for I don't want anybody to be around bothering me about it until I am in shape to sell it and make a deed to it. Q. Then you do not want to make it any more valuable than it is? — A. No, sir; and I'll tell you why. There is an Indian on it in a good many instances, and if I'd go to work improving it when it came time for me to get my deed for it that Indian would see his advantage and he wouldn't give me credit for improving it; he'd act as if he'd done it, and probably strike me for a raise, and I wouldn't get it unless I paid more for it than I'd agreed to pay. No, you don't catch me doing that. I've been caught too often, and know them too well. Not on your life — y— Q. Well, that is your reason? — A. Yes, sir; that is one of my reasons. I might improve some of the land that we have where there is no one on it, but it would cost more and be more trouble looking after it, and seeing that your tenant did not run off without paying his rent, than it would be worth. I believe that I am as fair as any of them ; I don't believe that one of them will ever come before you and say I told him a story. Q. Are there any other people down here who are doing what you are doing? — A. Yes, sir; lots of them, but I don't think any of them are doing as much as I am. Q. You have the cream of the business?— A. Well, I don't know PiVfi CIViLiZED TEIBES. 669 about that, but 1 am satisfied with what I am doing. To tell the truth, I am about loaded up with all I want. Q. You are not buying land, then, now? — A. Oh, yes; now and then. Now and then there is a fellow Avill come into the office and say, " I have a good piece of land out here," and tell me where it is, and he will say, " I am a little hard up and need a little money, and I want to sell this piece of land and improve this other piece and get a start," and I will take it in. I make money on one tract and lose it on another ; but I have a whole lot of it that I expect to make good on by and by. Q. Is this policy in vogue here in the Creek Nation? — A. Yes, sir. General Porter said here a little while ago that when a man was in business and was making money that he was a " grafter." I will correct that by saying that he was called a " grafter." Well, perhaps that is true. If he is taking chances that other men won't take and it turns out that he has made money, he may be a " grafter " according to the definition that some people down here put on the term, but it is another kind of practice that constitutes " graft " according to the way I have been taught to construe the term. If that makes a " grafter," then I plead guilty to the indictment, for I am dealing in lands that the ordinary business man would not pay 5 cents an acre for a deed to them. I am in the business and I think I am taking chances that are not nearly as desperate as a person who did not understand it might think. It is furnish- ing a market for land that nobody but the speculator or grafter will take. Q. Is that business largely conducted by that class of people? — A. Yes, sir. Nobody else who does any business at all here outside of mercantile line does any other kind. It is the chief and most thriving industry in this whole community. Q. Then I understand that outside of the Indians and this com- mittee, and the Government clerks, and a few others, the entire com- munity has been following this business ? — A. Oh, no ; I don't make it that sweeping. Q. Well, how sweeping do you intend it? — A. I mean of the peo- ple engaged in the land business. The great majority of the total population don't know anything about it. They think they do, but they don't. Of course, I did pot mean that everybody was in it — not at all; for of course we have dry goods men and grocery men and furniture and hardware men just like you have in Wyoming or Kansas or Colorado or Montana or Connecticut. I wish you to understand that I am speaking solely of the men who are trying to do something in the land business. Now, they may curse us and defame us as much as you like, we men engaged in that business are the ones who have developed this country and let the outside world know about it and its possibilities and productiveness and what it is good for. We have spent our money in advertising it and bringing people to it and in getting the railroads to run excursions to it, and give us rates to it, and I am not aware of anyone else who have gone down in their pockets for the wherewithal to do that but the land and real estate men. We have opened this country up to the world and spent a pile of money on it, and now because we take advantage of a good bargain when we see it we are termed grafters. We have 670 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. brought people here, some of whom have stayed here, but we can't keep them under the conditions that are here, and I tell you, gentle- men, that many of these buildings you see here will be empty before long. They will be seeking tenants if something is not done to keep the people here and bring more. I tell you these people are in des- perate straits, and they don't realize. By Senator Claek, of Montana-! Q. All of your operations have not been confined to the character of land that you have described? — A. No, sir. Q. You have been buying agricultural land? — A. Yes, sir; all over the Creek Nation. Q. About what proportion of the land in the Creek Nation of the character you have described is covered by timber and incapable of cultivation ? — A. Well, I will say about three-fifths or three- fourths. By Senator Teller: Q. Wliat proportion of the land in the Creek Nation is of that character did you say? — A. Well, that is it — about three- fourths is timbered land — has more or less timber on it — and the balance is considered to be prairie — perhaps a little more than that. Q. That prairie land is more valuable' than the other? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Well, did the freedmen and the mixed-blood people get the larger portion of the more valuable land ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They got more valuable land than the Indians? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How did they come to get it? — A. Well, that leaves the full bloods — thej were influenced by the Snake band not to take their allotments and they de: ned to select them when allotment was made, and the mixed bloods and freedmen accepted the situation and went out right off and selected the bulk of the good land. The full bloods stood out, and a good many of them are standing out yet, particularly that Snake-band bunch which numbers some five or six hundred; they won't take their allotments, won't have anything to do with them, and a good many of the other full bloods sympathize with them in that position, so they got left. The Commission could not help it. They tried to get them to come in and accept them and failed, and of course it was not long before the good land was mostly taken up by the ones that accepted the situation — ^the mixed bloods and freedmen — and then the Commission had to allot arbitrarily to these recalcitrants land, and they had to give them their arbitrary allotments out of the land that was not filed on. Q. So the full bloods got what was left? — A. Yes, sir; the ones that did not select their allotments did. By Senator Brandegee: Q. Did you say that your dealings have been mostly with the full bloods? — A. Yes, sir; in this particular land that I have been talk- ing about it has been. Q. You bought that outright? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Their titles are good ? — A. Yes, sir ; they are good if you don't pay them too much cash. If you pay them too much, so they think that you can't afford to let it go, when the time comes to finish up the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 671 deal they will hold you up; and often when they think that they did not get enough and are sorry of their bargin, they will go crazy and have a guardian appointed and haul you up before court, and there is never any trouble in proving this allottee was crazy. They were not crazy when they made the trade, not much, and you never heard of it before, but they get the land back. Q. These cases are brought in the court here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you try them before a jury? — A. Sometimes. Q. And they beat you? — -A. Yes, sir; why shouldn't they? They have all the evidence. They don't have any trouble in getting the evidence to beat you. Q. Now, do you think it is good business to deal with an allottee that way ? You go to him or he comes to you and you agree to buy his land and give him so much money for it, and you pay him some money down and^take his word that he will deliver the deed to you and that is all there is between you. Now, do you take that as an evidence on the part of the man who sells you the land of being the possessor of good business capacity ? — A. I take it that it is as much evidence of capacity on his part as it is mine. The result often shows that he had more business sense than I had. Now, there is a class of people down here that if you get their confidence once they will believe anything you tell them. If he has absolute confidence in you he won't break his word for he knows that you won't break 3'ours. I think if you came to him and he believed that you were a square man and told him that his land that is worth $20 an acre was worth only $10 an acre he would believe you and sell it to you for that; but they must have absolute confidence in you, and you must be sure not to abuse that confidence. I'll say this, that it is not often that you hear of anyone getting something from a full blood for nothing. Q. I would like to understand what you mean by that, for there is a little contradiction, I think, in your testimony. Now, I understood you to say that there was a verbal agreement on your part when you got the other deed ? — A. Yes, sir ; most generally there was a verbal agreement. Q. Then I understood you to say that you gave them a written slip ; now, which was it, the written slip embodying the contract or the verbal agreement? — A. When I gave them the writing it was only where it was a dead claim or the homestead — in those cases I gave them a written slip. Where there is a homestead involved I give them a book and open an account with them, and every time I give them money I put it down in that book. I make the payment as agreed to and put it down in the book, and from time to time I furnish them with something more. Now, to show you how it goes and how badly I get the worst of it sometimes, I will tell you about the case of Annie Scott. I had a fellow go and look at the land. I have a contract for it, and I had a fellow go and look at it. She is living on it. I said to this fellow, " I have $300 in it and I want you to go and look at it, for I think it is about time that I knew something about it, for I have been feeding her and her husband for three years now," and he went out and looked at it and came back and said ii.at he would not give 50 cents an acre for it. I started in with her, and then one of her brothers died and she had to have a coffin to bury him 672 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. in, and something of that kind came up — she was wanting money all the time, and got it, until at last I had this $300 into it and it was not worth $50, but I got into it and I stayed with it. Q. That is all. — A. I thank you gentlemen. STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES SMITH (G. W. GRAYSON, Interpreter). By the Chairman : Q. Mr. Smith, you may go on and make what statement you choose. — A. It would have pleased me very much to have made an extended talk to you to-day, but I see clearly that your time here is about up and I will not detain you. Q. What is your blood ? — A. I am a Creek Indian. It is very un- fortunate for people who are speaking to and trying to do business with people who speak a different language, and where you don't understand each other, and where the parties who are having the talk understand but one language each. I have sat here nearly all day and I have heard a very great deal of talk, very little of which I know anything about. I have heard a good deal said about full bloods. The full bloods seem to be the burden of the talk that has been going on here, and I gather from what I have heard here that t.:e question of the removal of restrictions on the full bloods is the subject that has been discussed more than any other. The question of the removal of the restric- tions on the lands of the full bloods seeems to be something that is very interesting to this Commission. I will say that even now our full-blood Indians are poor and needy, but it is the consensus of opinion among the full bloods, and it is my own opinion, that if the bars were thrown down and the restrictions removed from the land of the full bloods that they would be a great deal worse off than they are now. We learn things by observation. I can't read, but I learn and acquire knowledge by observation. That is the only way I have of acquiring knowledge. We have very many very ignorant people among the full bloods. Sometimes there will be an old lady who will have an allotment of land. She is old and unlearned and igno- rant, and she will be approached by a man who is pleasant and agree- able, and he will broach to her the subject of buying her land. She does not want to sell her land and she will tell him so, but he will per- sist and come again and again to see her and worry her about that land until finally that old woman will agree to sell this land of hers, and she does sell it; but in making this sale there are various costs, or what are said to be costs, that this man says have to be paid ; they are b. ought up, too, by the lawyers who are aiding her and assisting her in making this sale, and when the sale is consummated this old lady will find that she only has a small portion of the money that she was told she would get for the land, and in a short time you will find her without the money and without the land or anything, and she is just as bad off as she was before — indeed, worse off, for now she has neither the land nor the money. This teaches me that it is not the proper thing to alloAv this class of people to sell their land. However, on this subject of the removal of restrictions, I under- stand that is a question that has been fully discussed and canvassed before this committee, and therefore I will not dwell on it longer. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 673 Now, there is another point I would like to call your attention to, and that is to our financial affairs. Our money matters — money be- longing to the Creeli Nation. We have ascertained that large amounts of money belonging to the Creek Nation have been taken by the offi- cials of the Government of the United States, and this money we know has been spent here and there and everywhere, sometimes on one thing and sometimes on another, sometimes on this account and sometimes on that, and that all this has been done without the consent of the nation. Now, we think this is wrong, and we wish to call your attention to this fact, that this money has been all spent without the consent of the Indians to whom it belonged, while at the same time there is an existing treaty, or agreement, the stipulations of which provide that no moneys out of the treasury of the Creek Nation shall be appropriated or taken and paid out by any officer of the Govern- ment or other person Avithout such fippropriation shall first be duly approved by the Creek council. This protest and this treaty stipu- lation has had no attention paid to it, and something like $80,000, I believe, has been found to have been expended in this way, and the Indians have onlj^ found that out by a close examination, and I have thought that this was very unbusinesslike. We don't thinic tha-t it is treating the Creek Indians right, and we have wondered why the Government has thus treated us; and I, as a full-blood Creek' Indian, say that I wish you would see that ^xe are not anj^ longer thus treated. In speaking in this way, I am speaking for every full-blood Creek. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Can you give us the name of the person who informed you of that, if it be a fact ? What I want to know is the name of the man who knows that this condition exists ?^A. We last year sent Mr. Grayson Mr. Gbayson. I will speak for myself. Last year I was sent to Washington as the agent of the Creek Nation and representing them, and I ascertained these facts and reported them officially to the Creek national council. By Senator Beandegee : Q. I will say to you that if you will state to us or render us a state- ment showing what these expenditures were and for what purpose they were made, the committee, I believe, will be glad to have the matter investigated and render an answer to your question for information. — A. All right ; I will do so the best I can. I will state that this is all a matter of record. The delegates last winter obtained a statement from the Indian Office itemizing and showing the dates of the expenditures and the amounts, and that probably can be gotten from the Creek chief's office, for it ought to be there. There is another thing I desire to say, and that is, that before the allotments of land were decreed we all had our lands, our homes, and our farm selected and located where we wanted them. Our farm and our homes were located where we had lived for many years and expected to continue to live. The allotments of lands came along and overtook us, and a great many of our people could not understand what it meant. The allotments were supposed to be made to the vari- ous individuals in the nation, and they got us all mixed up. Some of us have been allotted land and have taken our allotments so as to lap 674 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. over on someone else's improvements, and that is a source of great dissatisfaction to our people, and some of our people are not dis- posed to talce allotments at all, and these people that were so disposed have been allotted land arbitrarily out in the hills and on the rock knolls and in places where they never would have gone if thfey had any choice in the matter, and so I say this is working a great hardship to the Indian people; and on that point it would be a very great pleasure to me to say a great deal — and I could say a great deal — but I see clearly that it is growing late and it is not a proper time for me really to say anything, so this is all I have to say on this point at this time. STATEMENT OF G. W. GRAYSON. . By Senator Teller : Q. Your name is G. W. Grayson ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You are the Mr. Grayson whom the last witness referred to as the man who went to Washington in the interest of the Creek council? — A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. Did you go to Washington to make this investigation ? — A. Yes, sn-; I went thei-e because I knew that considerable money had been expended here, and I went to Washington as stated and made an official demand on the Indian Office for a statement showing the ex- penditures and for what purpose. Q. Out of the Creek funds ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you get it ? — A. Yes, sir ; I got that statement, and the way it figures out is something like $80,000. Q. Of the Creek national funds ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was it used for?— A. First, you will understand that this matter of the allotment of land and taking it in severalty was forced on us, and we never agreed to it or accepted it voluntarily or willingly, and it was said to us by a committee that came here for the purpose of getting us to agree to it — that committee stated that it should not cost us anything, for it Avas stated to us that the Govern- ment was going to defray all the cost — the Government of the United States — and we would be at no cost in the matter; but the Govern- ment, after it had made these changes, took our school funds and paid the school officers here out of it. There is a lady sitting up there at the head of the table who was paid a portion of her salary out of our money; and Mr. Benedict himself, who is at the head of the school department now, was also paid out of our money, and is yet being paid out of our money. There is a gentleman named Falwell, who is an appointee of. the Government, and he is also paid out of our money. I am not sure whether it is all paid out of our money or whether it is supplemental, but I know that a part of all the salaries of these people is paid out of our money. I know that they are paying at least a portion of the salaries of these people out of our money; and there is a gentleman that is called a revenue collector, and he is paid out of our money, too. Q. Well, is he a revenue collector in your interest ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Collecting the Creek money ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is his name ? — A. I don't know who it is now, but at one time it was Cobb. Johnson is his name now, I think, but I am not sure. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 675 Q. Do you mean he is the collector of internal revenue ? — A. No, sir ; he is the collector of. Creek taxes — grazing taxe.5 and everything of that sort. Q. Do you mean that the Government has taken charge of your school money? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, has it taken charge of anything else but your school money? — -A. No, sir; I think not — not in the way of spending it. Q. All this money came from the school funds, did it not? — A. No, sir; I think not. Our school money is expended from the school funds. "WTiether these school officers were being paid somewhere else out of the school funds I don't know. Q. Who -appoints them? — A. The Government of the United States. Q. Well, what part of the Government appoints them? — A. The Interior Department. Q. Is it the Secretary of the Interior? — A. I think so, but I am not sure. Q. Then, you don't know what Department appoints them? — A. Well, I am not right positive, but I think it is the Secretary of the Interior. Q. And the schools were all turned over to the Interior Depart- ment ? — A. There was not any turning over about it, they were taken over, and that was all there was to it. Q. Taken by force? — A.. Well, you can call it that if you want to. Q. Well, is that the fact? — A. That is practically what it amounted to. Q. A seizure of the schools and the funds? — A. That is the way we look at it. Q. Well, was that not what was agreed to? — A. The treaty pro- vided for it. Q. How? — A- The treaty provides for it. Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. And the understanding, you say, was that the Government was to discharge the expense? — A. We expected to pay the money our- selves, but if the Government took our school funds and did not let us have anything to do with them, or say what should be done with them, then we expected the Government would pay these things itself. Q. Pay it out of what money? — A. Their own money. Q. But you don't know, you say, whether the treaty makes provi- sion for that or not? — A. No, sir. Oh, yes, I do know. By Senator Teller: Q. Well, what do you know about it? — A. I know the treaty don't say anvthing about it at all. There is nothing in the treaty about it at all." Q. Then your understanding is that the treaty don't say any- thing about it at all — that the treaty is silent on that point? — A. I don't think any such officers are provided for in the treaty. Q. Well, are you sure about that? — A. No; I am not sure about that? Q. Did I understand you to say that they made an official de- mand — that you made an official demand on the Indian department? — A. Yes, sir ; for this information. 676 S'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. What are your relations with the Creek Indians or th3 Five Civilized Tribes? — A. Well, sir, I'll tell you. I am a Creek myself. I was born and raised here, and have been here ever since I was born. I have represented the Creeks in various capacities ever since I was 21 years of age. I have been their national treasurer for years and years, and also I was their representative in Washington for a number of years. By Senator Brandegee : Q. You stated that the United States Commission or some commis- sion of some kind came out here to induce your people to accept the allotment system ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you say that that commission or committee assured yoji that it would not cost you anything? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Whom did they assure of that fact? — A. Well, it was the coun- cil; it was Mr. McKinnon here and the others — there was five of them at that time. Q. Well, never mind who they were, for that is immaterial for the purposes of this inquiry. Did j'ou understand at that time that that assurance went to the effect or extent that in the allotment of the land it should not cost you anything, or did you understand and your people — the Creek Indians — understand that it went to the extent of assuring you and them that it should never again in tlie future cost you anything for running your schools? — A. Well, we understood this, Mr. Senator, that in view of the fact that we were breaking up involuntarily as it Avere, our then existing condition, we thought and understood and Avere so informed that no expense of the Government incurred incident to that breaking wp would be borne and paid for by the Government of the United States. Now so far as the schools were concerned, we had the money to run the schools and we had been running them all the time prior to that time, and felt that we were able and competent to run them ; and prior to that time I think we had been using $76,000 a year to run our national schools, and we were willing to continue running them. Q. Well, does not this whole matter in dispute turn upon the repre- sentation that was made to you at that time or the way you under- stood it ; and since there seems to be some question about what it was, I will ask you if there is any evidence of it preserved in the way of a stenograjDhic report or notes or a transcript of such, or any report that contains a substantial report of the proceedings at these conferences?— A. Well, I don't know of anything; but the likelihood is that there are stenographic reports of it somewhere. ^ Q. If there be such, do you know where they are? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you claim that this money was taken and paid out without warrant of law, or do you claim that the law was passed differently from what you expected ? — A. We claim that it Avas paid out without warrant of Creek law. Q. Well, I mean United States law?— A. Well, that agreement that we had with the United States has been enacted into a statute of the United States, I take it, and that law says that no money shall be taken out of the Creek treasury by any officer of the United States, or other person, and expended without the consent and by the appro- priation properly made by the government of the Creek Nation. Now that is what is in the agreement and it has been enacted into a FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 677 law which I take it, is as binding upon the United States and its officers and employees as it is on any Creek. Q. So your position is, that before any of this fund can be ex- pended there must be a regular appropriation of it, made by the Creek government ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that appropriation has not been made? — A. No, sir. We have not been asked to make it. The Government of the United States has just appropriated it as if it was their own and seem to be spending it as they please regardless of what the Creeks have to say about it. Q. Have you any regular government that could do it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. "What is it? — A. AVe have the council. Q. Does the council hold sessions? — A. Yes, sir; but there is not mcuh business to transact any more. Now, I want to say this, gentle- men — the gentleman who has just spoken is the president of the house of kings. I am with them every time they meet. I am the national interpreter for the time being. They felt sore over the ex- penditure of that money. They say they want this government to wind up this business because if the Government of the United States feels that it is pledged or authorized to step in and take possession of the Creek funds and pay it out in every and any way it sees fit with- out consulting the Creek authorities or government, that the best thing to do is to wind the thing up finally and go out of business; but while we expect the Government of the United States to do this, we say that we expect the Government of the United States to pay us back this money by a per capita payment to all our people, for we think that if times and things go on as they are it will not be long before there won't be anything left for anybody, so we want this money paid out to us per capita for it is our money and belongs to all the people and they have a right to it. Q. You want the national funds distributed among all the peo- ple? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How much of this money is there? — A. Well, there is a whole lot of it now ; but we are afraid that after awhile there won't be any of it left. If Ave were spending it ourselves, as we used to, we would take care of it and have plenty for all time; but this way of doing business we don't like, and so we want our money. Q. Speaking plainly, you have not confidence in the integrity of the United States Government to expend this money? — A. We think the Government of the United States means well; but the trouble is that the e^roenditure of the money can't be seen after by the Presi- dent and me Cabinet officers. Its expenditure is necessarily left to some person under them, and they are not as careful in expending it is as the Indians are themselves. We have confidence in the Gov- ernment and its intentions, but we haven't confidence in these men who have the handling of it. We know that we had far better schools, at a much less cost than now, when we were running our own schools. Q. Well, how much money has the Creek Nation ? — A. It ought to have nearly three millions of dollars. Q. In the Treasury of the United States? — A. Yes, sir; that is what ought to be there — more than that, I think — but we don't know 678 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. just how much is there. Every time we learn anything about it it is less and less. Q. Well, interest is being paid on that money, is it not? — A. Yes sir. Q. Now, when these taxes are collected, who are they collected by? — A. By United States men. Q. Are they collected by this internal-revenue officer ?— A. Yes, sir. Q- Where does he put the money? — A. Well, we don't know, any more than we suppose he puts it in the subtreasury at St. Louis. Q. Do you think, now, that they have been using it without send- ing it there ? — A. No, sir. Q. And you think they send it there — to the St. Louis subtreas- ury? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, if they send it there, how can they get it out? — A. I don't know. Q. You know that money that goes into the subtreasury can not be paid out or gotten out of there without an appropriation, don't you? They can pay it out when it is appropriated to be paid out of there, but they have to have the appropriation every time to get a penny of it out after it once gets in there? — A. Well, I know that when the money goes to the subtreasury you have to have an appropriation to get it out, but I think that he has used it right here without sending it there at all. Miss RoBEETSON. I wish to explain that I was school supervisor, appointed by the Government to administer the Creek schools, and for my services I was paid $1,500 a year and my traveling expenses, and my stationery and office hire came out of this fund. You know how these expenditures are always made. There is a heading, and I was my own disbursing officer or agent, and the money was paid out of the Indian trust funds and the proceeds of labor By Senator Teller : Q. Where did this money come from? — A. The tax collector col- lected it from the white people doing business in the Indian Terri- tory ; or rather, I should say, the white people doing business in the Creek Nation, and paying revenue or taxes for the purpose of doing business there. He collected all this and it was sent on and placed to my credit with the disbursing officer at St. Louis.' I was paid out of the Creek funds, a portion of Mr. Benedict's salary came out of it, and also, I think, some expenses for clerical help were paid out of the proceeds of the tax collection. Senator Teller. Well, I don't see that we can do anything. It is a matter that ought to be taken up with the authorities at* Washing- ton and straightened out. Mr. Grayson. That is what we have done, but we don't seem to get much satisfaction. I want to call your attention to these things, for we believe it is not right to take our money without our consent when the treaty expressly says that shall not be done either by the Government of the United States or any officer of that Government; and we feel that if our money has been taken in an unauthorized manner for one purpose that it will be taken for another. We think it ought to be stopped, and we have tried to get some action on it at Washington and failed, so we appeal to you to aid us in the matter. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 679 By Senator Beandegee : Q. Mr. Grayson, Governor Porter is chief of the Creek Nation, is he not ? — -A. Yes, sir. Q. You heard his statement here in which he stated that he thought the restrictions ought to be taken oil of the old persons in your community, but, in his opinion, he said, he did not think they ought to be talten off tlie others. I want to linow what you think about it. — A. About the removal of the restrictions? Q. Yes, sir. General Porter said he was in favor of removing them from the older people, but he did not think the restrictions should be taken off the others. Wliat do you think about that proposition ? — A. Well, you understand that I am not here represent- ing anybody. The chiefs are the real representatives of the nation. These gentlemen here are the real representatives of our council, and they are here representing the wishes of the nation. They represent the wishes and views of the council and the council represents the people. Now, while I don't represent anybody but myself, I have no hesitation in telling you what I think. I can talk to you as J. W. Grayson. Q. Well, I don't wish to ask you to do anything that might embar- rass you, but I would like to have your opinion as an individual, if you are willing to give it as such ? — A. Well, I have heard a good deal of talk about the full-blood Indians, and particularly that man who made a talk just before Mr. Smith did — he is sitting over there now by the " king of the grafters." I have heard a large amount of talk here by lawyers, and so on, and they are supposed to know all about it. They are supposed to know, or make a pretense of knowing, more about the Indian than a man who, while he has not much Indian in him, still, was born and raised and lived al'l his life among them, and while he don't pretend to be a financial expert or anything of that kind, still, he is able to look out reasonably well for his own affairs. That is I; I ought to know something about the Indians and how they feel. Q. I know that, and that is the reason I would like to hear from you and your opinion on this subject. It is from men like you that I am sure the other members of the committee would like to hear also. — A. Yes, sir; and I will tell you. It is a complex question, as some one has said here. It is an expression that expresses the situation exactly. It is a question that no rule of general applicability will fit at all. There is no rule, so the maxim says, but has its exceptions, and so in this case you can't lay down a rule that will fit everybody alike. These lawyers talk very learnedly and very feelingly, but I somehow think they are more interested in themselves than in the Indian. The man that impressed me most as far as his honesty is concerned was the king of the grafters. He told you a whole lot of truth, for which he should be commended. Well, if these men were really as anxious for the welfare and future of the Indian as they say they are, the Indians certainly would be all right and safe, but, really, I don't think much of any of these professions. Now, to get down to the question you asked me. It is this way : I think that among our full-blood Indians there are some very smart and capable men — good, smart business men, who are fully capable of taking care of their property and interests. I know there are many such ; and my opinion is that we ought to have some tribunal in this 680 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. new State that is soon going to be established or inaugurated — some tribunal Avhere such a person could appear before the court, or what- ever it is — now, that is my judgment — where he could appear before the court established for that purpose with some good, honest, and keen man who is not a politician at the head of it, and have an examination made into the matter, and the court could find out and decide whether in its judgment this man that appeared before it, and had been ex- amined in order to have his restrictions removed, was really and truly a fit person to look after his property ; that is, capable of look- ing after his stuff when his restrictions were removed. I believe if that was done, and tlie court finds out that he is capable of looking after his stuff, that that person ought to be permitted to sell or dis- pose of his land in any way he sees proper. Now, that is the way that I, J. W. Grayson, look at it. Q. You believe that a person who had undergone such an examina- tion and had been found competent should be permitted to do as he pleased with his land? — A. Yes, sir; just like a white man or a negro does. Q. Now you are referring to the full bloods ?— A. Yes, sir. Now, I feel that in a case like that that there should be some place — some tribunal — some court somewhere — and I believe you have United States courts where the judge serves for a lifetime — it ought to be that kind of a court that had jurisdiction. Our new State courts wouldn't do, for they would have politicians for judges, and that Avouldn't do; but I have an idea that some such a judge as the judges of the United States court .ought to do it. Yes, sir; I believe that some such a court as that would be the proper place for these people to come in and have their cases adjudged. It certainly ought to be before some judge who serves for life or during good behavior — it would be before some such a judge as that that these people should be allowed to come before and have their capacity for taking care of their estates adjudged ; and I say that because I think where a person is in office for life or during good behavior he is not going about and being cuffed by everybody and afraid of everybody and trying to act so as to make his future election sure. A man in that position can't do right if he wanted to, and the man who holds it for life or good behavior is easy and he don't fear anybody or favor anybody. Now, that is my view of it, and I really believe that such a court as that will do our people a great deal of good. Q. The judge of such a court or tribunal would also have an excel- lent chance of getting acquainted with the Indian character and char- acteristics? — A. Indeed, gentlemen, I think he would. I am just giv- ing you my own proper view of it. Q. Yes, sir; we understand that. — A. I am not speaking for any- one but myself. These are my views. \ By Senator Long : Q. What do you think about the removal of restrictions on the mixed bloods of the Creek Nation? — A. That is, people like myself? Q. Yes, sir. — A. I think they ought to be removed. Q. You think the restrictions ought to be removed on them? — A Yes, sir. Q. Are you a mixed blood? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 681 By Senator Teller : Q. \Vhat did your people do about voting at this last election? I don't mean to ask you how you voted, but what I want to know is did you vote at all ? — A. Yes, sir ; I understand. Well, they took very little interest in the election. We just took this position — that we did not understand the thing, and we did not know what these white people were doing, and we wouldn't vote or take any part in it, because we did not know what the effect would be, so we just let it alone. We have had business with the white people a good many times when we thought we were doing one thing aijd it turned out that we were doing something else. As far as that is concerned I did not have anything to do with it, and as far as my advice went none of our people had anything to do with it, and that will be my position until I find out where I am. Some of the Indians did vote, however, and I believe the majority of the Indian vote that was cast went Democratic. Q. Well, the result of the election in the Territory and Oklahoma was not due to anything your people did?— A. No, sir; evidently the Indian had very little to do with it. Q. But you say that the Indians as a rule did not vote? — A. No, sir. Q. I suppose that they went into the question of politics, feeling that the administration of public affairs had something to do with that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They felt that that entered into their own affairs — that politics did? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And there was dissatisfaction? — A. Yes, sir; there was and is a very deep-seated disaffection. The condition now has never had anything in the past to approximately parallel it. They feel that they are being made the victims of the game of politics; they feel that they are being swindled and robbed; and — well, they are sore, and it will be a long time before they get over it. The Indian is a very hospitable and generous individual as long as he feels that he is being treated right, but let him get the idea into his head once that he is being wronged or not treated right and it stays there a long time. Q. Well, that is human. Can you give us any idea of what propor- tion of the Indian population voted at the last election? — A. No, sir. Q. There is no way you could do that? — A. No, sir. Q. I did not know but that you could tell us about the votes in precincts. — A. No, sir ; I couldn't do it. I didn't pay any attention to it. It was not my fight ; I was out of it, and the Indians were out of it, so it did not interest me at all. I felt as if I did not care how it went. By Senator Long: Q. Were some of the Creeks candidates for election as delegates to the constitutional convention ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many were candidates? — A. I Imow of three or four, but none of them were elected. By Senator Teller: Q. They were all defeated? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Were there any Indians at all elected as delegates to the consti- S. Rep. oOVo, '>U--2. 1 It 1 14 682 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. tutional convention? — A. I don't know exactly, but perhaps there was two or three or four Cherokees elected. By Senator Beandegee: Q. In the Creek Nation how closely do the full bloods come in con- tact with the white people? — A. Well, we have quite a number of towns now in the Creek Nation that are populated almost exclusively by white people, or in which the white people largely predominate, but the Indians — full bloods and others: — make a practice of going to these towns two or three times a Week and associating with the white people, and they come in contact with them that way. Q. These full bloods, I understand, can't speak English?— A. Not as a rule. Q. Coming in contact with the whites, in that way don't they learn to speak English ? — A. Well, now, there are a good many full- blood Indians who can speak English very well, but some can't. Q. Most of the delegations here can understand it, and can hear and understand what is said here? — A. Most all of them, excepting Mr. Smith — well, he can understand it very well, too. Q. He understands some things? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, it is a fact, is it not, that most of them understand it even when they can't speak it? — Yes, sir. Some of them can speak it, too, better than they imagine. You saw Mr. Harris here the other night. He wanted me to interpret for him, but he got along very well. He can speak it better than he thinks. He can't make what could be an extended talk, but for a short statement, such as he made here the other evening, he did very well. By Senator Teller: Q. Are you a professional man? — A. No, sir. Q. I thought you were a lawyer? — A. No, sir; I am just a clod- hopper, like most of the people. By Senator Long : Q. What part Indian are you ? — A. One- fourth. Q. One-quarter Indian? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the rest white? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How old are you ? — A. I am 63 years of age. I have a brother and other relatives who are very dark. I have full brothers who are very dark, but, as you see, I am rather light myself. Q. These others who are very dark are of the same blood as your- self ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Your mother, was she an Indian or a white woman? — ^A. She was nearly white. Q. That is all. — A. I am very much obliged to you gentlemen for listening to me so patiently, because these are matters out of the usual line, and I wanted to tell you about them. STATEMENT OF L. S. FAWCETT, OF HOLDENVILLE, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. State your name to the reporter.— A. L. S. Fawcett. Q. Where do you reside? — A. I live at Holdenville, in the Indian Territory. Q. What is your profession or occupation ? — A. I am another one FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 683 of these lawyers — just like so many of the others who have appeared before you. Q. Yes; the legal profession has been well represented. — A. Yes, sir; I am just a plain, every-day sort of a lawyer, that lives over here at Holdenville, and I have lived there now about five years. Now, gentlemen, I wish to say a word or so to you on the question of taxation. I notice that much has been said here in behalf of the Indian — the full bloods and the mixed bloods — and also I have ob- served that much has been said — well, that something has been said in behalf of the freedmen — not as much by any means as in behalf of the Indian, but still something has been said in behalf of the freed- men; but I notice particularly that nothing has been said in behalf of the " white man's burden." Now, I think that it is time that you gentlemen were told something about the most serious thing that confronts every community in the Indian Territory. AVe white men are here, and we think we are here by right and by permission of the law, and we hope to be able to stay here and make of this country something that will rival the fairest and most productive part of this great nation. We say we are here by right and by law, and also by the implied invitation of the Indians, and by the implied consent of the Government. Now, gentlemen, there are about 600,000 Q. You mean in the Indian Territory ? — A. Yes, sir ; in the Indian Territory alone there is at the present time at least 600,000 peo- ple. Next week a conventioij will convene at Guthrie for the for- mulation of a State constitution, so the question of the organization of a State government is almost immediately upon us. We have people living here from each of the States that you gentlemen repre- sent — indeed, we have people here from every State in the Union. We are flesh of your flesh and bone of your bone, and^ we believe we have a right to talk to you as brothers and neighbors, and we think we have a right to ask of you in behalf of this new State that it be established in a safe and substantial manner and basis; that it be established on as favorable a basis as its sister States in so far as that can be done with an intention to do what is fair and right to the In- dian and the freedman. We believe that our interests are largely iden- tical, and that what is good for the people of one nation or blood is good for the people of the other. We believe that as little of class or race legislation should be enacted as can possibly be got along with. We wish for this committee to represent to Congress that this coun- try is as fair, as fertile, and as productive as any other of a like area within the limits of this Government or any other Government, and that it will grow into a great and prosperous commonwealth if it has only the opportunities that the other States had. Now this is all preliminary to the proposition that there can be no State government without taxation ; and there can by no process of reasoning or practice be any taxation without ]^>roperty that is taxable. At the present time within the limits of the Indian Territory there is no taxable property, excepting personal property, and the little real property that can be taxed in these towns and cities. You can easily imagine that it is impossible to levy sufficient taxation on the property in these towns to support the burden of a State administration ; and you can as easily imagine that these towns and cities are already bur- dened with about all the taxation they can bear in the way of main- taining their magnificent public school systems and carrying on the 684 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. work of local improvements and maintaining their own municipal organizations. It will readily be conceded that it would be utterly out of the question to attempt to levy taxation on them sufficient to bear the burdens of a State government — ^they could not stand it, and if it was attempted it would be confiscation. So I say that as these local municipal institutions have all the burden they can bear, and we know that they have already loaded themselves to the limit in doing what they have done, it is preposterous to look to the real estate in the cities and towns and the little personal property there is in the country upon which to levy taxation sufficient to defray the cost of State government. Now this so far takes into consideration only the State government, but the fact must not be overlooked that at tifie same time there will have to be municipal governments established — county governments — all of which will need revenue for the purpose of building roads and bridges, schools, and the many other necessary local improvements, such as court-houses, jails, and so on, and the maintenance of them. When all these things are considered as being inevitable if we are to build up and maintain a prosperous and stable State and municipal life, and considering the paucity of taxable property, we may well stop and ask ourselves, " Where we are at?" How can this be done? How is it to be done ? Property will have to be taxed or some other means provided for yielding a revenue. We might as well look this matter squarely in the face and decide it, for depend on it, it will have to be decided soon. Under the conditions we recommend the removal of restrictions — we recommend that not only is desirable that the restrictions should be removed, but that they should be removed on behalf of the Indian as they have been removed on behalf of the freedmen, and that the constitution of the new State, with the per- mission of Congress — or that Congress will rise to the exigencies of the situation and will, from motives of public policy and in the cause of public policy, remove these restrictions so this land can be taxed or enough of it released so it will yield taxation sufficient to maintain our State and municipal governments. We believe that Congress should do this, for a question is involved that is greater than the pecuniary interests of any race or people or class. We ask, too, that the Indian be protected and provided for, but we don't believe that it should be done at the expense of the very life of this young State which you have chartered down here, by handicapping her in the race for place and position in the class of her sister States. We believe that this protection and safeguarding of the interests of the Indian should be done in some other way by Congress. The time has come when the position of the white race in this Territory must be taken more prominently into consideration than it has ever been. Pie is here, and he is here to stay and make a home for himself and his descendants. He is here by or at the invitation of the Indians, expressed or implied, and with the consent of the Gov- ernment, and he can no more be expelled than the negro can be ex- pelled from Mississippi or Alabama. He will have to receive the degree of protection — not that a white man needs protection, but he will have to be accorded the privilege of so conducting the affairs of the country as to make it a suitable habitation for a white man, and to this end we ask that the restrictions on the land of Indians be removed to a sufficient extent to yield a revenue that will answer for FTVE CTVTLIZED TEIBES. 685 the maintenance of government and the making of the necessary local improvements. Now, regarding the incompetency of the Indian and his lack of ability to take care of his estate, which has been so prominently featured before yon here and at Vinita, and doubtless will be pre- sented prominently in the same manner wherever you go, I have this to say, that it seems to me as a matter of public policy that the person who is declared to be incompetent, whether Indian or white, who is declared to be incompetent to sell his property, should be declared to be incompetent to hold it. Now, I am not in favor nor do I take the position that all of the Indians' property should be thrown open to sale. It may be all right to restrict their homesteads — I have my doubts about that — but still I won't say it is not right to do that, but certainly the restrictions should be removed from their surplus estates. I think it would be proper to permit the sale of their lands excepting homesteads — such sale to be made under such restrictions as Congress in its wisdom may impose, to the end that the full value of them be realized in such sales, the proceeds to be held by the Government and paid over to the beneficiary in such a manner and amount and at such times as Congress may direct by suitable legislation. By Senator Bkandegee: Q. But why should a man who is incompetent to dispose of it in a safe and sane manner be considered and declared to be incompetent to hold the land ? — A. I said that such a man should not be allowed to hold it as a matter of public policy. I do not argue that a crazy man or an incompetent should by reason of that fact have his property sold for him, nor am I arguing that the property of these Indians should be sold for them, but the restrictioiis should be re- moved and they be permitted to sell it themselves, provided they got the fair value of the property. I mean that inasmuch as there are a large class of that kind of incompetents in the Indian Territory, the fact that they are here should not be allowed to militate to the detriment of the general public welfare by withholding from the State the right to tax property in a just, impartial, and equitable manner. Now, that is what I mean, and I think I have explained my meaning. To this end, gentlemen, we believe that every reasonable precaution should be taken for the protection of the Indian, but we don't believe that unreasonable precautions should be taken. We believe that all doubts should be resolved in favor of 23ublic jjolicy. We believe that public policy, and what that demands in justice, should be the factor that would resolve all doubts. We believe that here as everywhere else the rule that should guide and govern legislators in considering this question is the rule or line of action that Avill bring the " greatest good to the greatest number." It should not be simply a question as to whether John Jones, an Indian, is competent to hold his estate or to sell it to his advantage ; but if it appears that he is about to sell it and is not competent, and he probably is not comjDetent, that fact ought not to restrain him, for the public should have the benefit of the doubt in behalf of public policy. The personal of John Smith, or Tom Jones, or Bill Johnson — Indians — should not be allowed to stand in the way of the progress, welfare, and happiness of a whole community. 686 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. I say, gentlemen, this question of taxation is the most serious factor that confronts us down here. The majority of people are prone not to see a difficulty until they are brought face to it, but here is a diffi- culty that we are now face to face with and yet the majority of the people don't seem to realize what it means. Here is a government about to be established Avithout any way of securing a revenue for its maintenance. I know of no way to secure revenue other than by taxation, and I know of no way to raise money by taxation unless it be from taxable property, and in this country all the property is held by the Indians and is nontaxable; hence it follows that unless some of this Indian land is released, a sufficient quantity of it is released to afford taxation, that we will be in a very bad condition down here, and instead of realizing the boon of State government we will find ourselves in the same condition we were before, only with added obligations and no more taxation revenue than we had before. Now, gentlemen, it appears to me that this question of taxation is of more importance to the future welfare of this country than any other question you have considered. There need be no fear of our ability to care for ourselves if you will only free- us and let us do it. We are not supplicants or coming to you begging you for anything more than we believe we are justly entitled to. We hope you will give this matter your mature and careful consideration, and out of it will be evolved a solution that will make for our welfare and pros- perity. I thank you, gentlemen. STATEMENT OP MISS ALICE M. BOBERTSON, OF MUSKOGEE, IND. T. Miss Robertson. I am the present postmaster of Muskogee, and was formerly connected with the schools here. I came here fifty-two years ago ; so I am at least that old. I answer that question without being asked, and I hope you will give me credit for being frank. I will give you a little of my history. I come from old Baptist missionary stock. My grandfather went to the Cherokees in the old nation more than eighty years ago, and our family has been with them and their neighbors ever since. My grandfather was Doctor Worster, who was sent to the penitentiary in Georgia for being a missionary. Mrs. Lockwood here claimed the honor of setting aside the Supreme Court, but I want to "assure her that she was not the only one, for Andrew Jackson also set it aside. When my grandfather was in prison, and Marshall rendered the decision that my grandfather was illegally imprisoned, Andrew Jackson said, " Let him enforce it if he can." Well, my grandfather was a man of peace, and instead of rais- ing trouble he accepted imprisonment, but after a while they relented and let him out on a pardon. So you see I am the granddaughter of a missionary who suffered in a cause that he knew was right, and I am proud to be the descendant of such stock. My father was a missionary and teacher here for many years. That was long ago, too. He taught a great many of the people here, but most of them have passed away. Some of them are here yet. A few are here. Here is General Porter; he went to school to my father as a boy. Didn't you, General? General Porter. I did. Miss Robertson. Were there any full bloods — [witness displays emotion] — well, I will speak. I will not let this conquer me. Gen- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 687 tlemen, these people are not of my blood, nor am I of their blood, but they are my people. I can show you people here as honorable and as high-minded among these people — people who have as lofty sentiments — as any people anywhere. Here are white men here whose wives are Creeks or Cherokees, and I appeal to them to answer what kind of wives they have made them. In too many instances the faith and devotion have all been on one side, but on that side it never falters or wavers. Oh, the simple trust and faith of these people, when once they have placed their trust in anything; and oh, gentle- men, the way that trust and faith has been outraged and abused! I have a sister that is married to an Indian, and he was one of the Indians that was placed on the ticket because he was a man of honor and known to be incorruptible in every way, and what was the result? Was he elected? Oh, no; he was snowed under, and his opponent was one of the very few Republicans elected. You want to know some things about these full bloods. You want to know who they are and how they live. Why, gentlemen, I can tell you. I know them. Haven't I lived all my life among them and with them? Under these circumstances shouldn't I know something about them ? Oh, the simple, truthful people ! I have been in their homes; I have eaten with them and slept with them, and I have talked with them in their own language ; and now don't you think I ought to know them ? I have listened to their relation of their history and traditions, and, gentlemen, I believe that I have felt in my soul that which they felt in theirs. I believe I have sympathized with them and felt with them as very few have; indeed, I feel that I Imow them and their wishes and hopes and aspirations, and, gentle- men, they have all these things, even if they can't express them to your comprehension ; but I believe I feel that I enter into their feel- ings. Don't you believe I do? Well, I am not ashamed of it, for I would rather enjoy the confidence and respect of these people, lowly though they be, than the respect of the great and powerful, for I know that could only come through wealth and station. These people know me and I know them, and that is sufficient for me. Now, I know you want me to tell you about these people. Well, these people are honest; they are truthful, and they are primitive. They can't get away from that. They are not white people. They don't have the aspiring soul of the white man, which is always seeking new heights to win and longing to meet difficulties for the sake of con- quering them. Take these people. What were they doing before the white man came here and intruded himself upon them ? Well, they were living their simple, primitive style of life, unvexed by the ques- tions that disturbed other regions, living in an Arcadian simplicity that exactly suited their wishes and desires. But the white man in- truded his presence upon them, not that the Indians wanted him ; he was just a trespasser, or an intruder that came uninvited, and these simple people could not foresee that this was the first faint trickle of the stream of invasion that would before many years simply over- whelm the land. Well, the white men came and they kept coniing in ever-increasing numbers until finally the Government of the United States confessed its inability to turn them out and keep them out, as it had promised solemnly to do by treaty. The Government said that it was unable longer to control them — the whites. 688 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. General Porter has told you that in these days of long ago, be- fore the white man came here in such numbers, that there were no Indian paupers, and that the unfortunate were always cared for. That is true. If a man was unfortunate and could not take care of himself his relatives took him in and looked after him, and if they were not able to do it or there were no relative then his neighbors did it. Those were the days when charity was abroad in the land and every one extended a helping hand, and selfishness was unknown. Yes ; the neighbors would look after them as if they were their own, and what they possessed was shared with the less fortunate. In those days they lived in cabins built of logs. Their furniture was of home manufacture. There were not many of the accessories of culture and refinement. Practically everything was of home manu- facture. They say the Indian has no constructive genius. Well, per- haps that is right ; but to a person like myself, who has seen what they could do as artisans, it is hard to make me believe that it is true. If I had you out at my place, I could show you chairs and desks and different things of Indian manufacture that display a very great degree of artistic skill and beautiful workmanship, all manu- factured by Indians. I have many things in my beautiful Indian collection, all of which they made. In those days they had little money. But what did they need of money? For each of them had a bunch of cattle or hogs that wandered at will through the beautiful forests, and periodically the strangers — cattle and live-stock buyers — would come in and buy their surplus, and in that way they would get sufficient money to meet their simple wants. In those days their bread was all made by grinding wheat in mortars, and this work was mostly done by the women. I have seen them do it many and many a time. There was always the glad hand and a hospitable welcome to the stranger travelling through the country who came within their gates. But they are generous and trustful, these Indian peopel; are yet, notwithstanding all that has been done to destroy this trust and generosity. It is a virtue which in their case has been too seldom repaid in kind. These people are easily persuaded, and too often they may be robbed with facility ; but you must remember that they must speak through an interpreter, and in making a bargain with them, while both parties may act in the best of good faith, neither party understands the other, and there is dissatisfaction, with the usual result that the weaker has to abide by the construction the stronger puts on the treaty, which has always been in the language of the white man. You can see for yourselves the difficulty there is in attempting to communicate with these people through an interpreter. The lan- guages in their construction and everything are so opposed to each other that it is very hard to find equivalents in either to express the exact meaning of the other. Indeed, there are forms of expression that don't admit of a literal translation. That is true of all the people who have lived among these primitive surroundings, whether they are or are not full bloods. Take the case of the negroes — the freedmen — so many of whom are here, and who have parted with their land so easily, and now have neither money nor land. Well, they are all alike, simple and credulous, and no match for the white man. I know that is the case, for I have bought a little of it myself, for I claim to be about as bright as the average farmer, but the result sometimes proves that I did not make the best FIVE CIVILIZED TEIEES. 689 bargain. The piece of land wlaicli I bought was listed for $3,200, and that is what I paid for it, but I understand that the negro woman to whom it was allotted sold it for $300. The piece of land next to that of my Indian adopted daughter was sold for $500 by the old negro that drew it, and I understand that that payment was made in the shape of $200 in cash and $300 in a check that was protested, and which was never paid. That piece of land went into the hands of a land company and was right afterwards sold to an Oklahoma man for $2,250 ; and when I wanted to get it, because it laid right next to my adopted daughter, this Oklahoma man wanted $4,500 for it. The Chairman. How much was there of it? — A. 98 J acres. I can tell you about old Micho Hiye; he is a Snake Indian; one of these that refuse to be allotted. By Senator Teller: Q. You don't mean that he is one of those that we call in the West Snake Indians? — A. No, sir; he was one of the party here that are called " Snakes;" they have a leader called Chitto Harjo — " chitto " being the Indian word for snake and " harjo " for crazy, hence the name means " Crazy Snake." He was sent to the penitentiary be- cause he would persist in telling the people who listened to him and believed in him that they could have their old ways back again. Now, I don't think that was right. I don't think anyone now thinks it was right. I never thought it was right. I think that man was just as much of a patriot in his mistaken, misguided way as George Washington was or William Tell, or any other national patriot we read about. He was upholding what he considered the rights of his countrymen and was willing to fight for a principle as sacred to him as the principle my great-grandfather was fighting for when he had his legs shot off at the battle of Bennington. I went to his home once over here in the West, and he had a little patch of cleared ground — maybe somewhere between 5 or 10 acres — that he and his old wife were trying to plow with a little pony, but he had plenty for his wants. He had his little log cabin and his smokehouse that was full of meat. He was a very skillful artisan and a worker in metals. I have a ring at home that he made and gave me, and also a silver ornament that he made for me, too. Remember, that he made these things in his little blacksmith shop. He did not have any of the elaborate and proper tools that the white man has, but he worked them with his own rough blacksmith tools, and they are a credit to any kind of a mechanic. He does a little blacksmith work for his neighbors that they want done — it is not much, but he gets a little of it to do now and then, such as sharpening plowshares for his neighbors. Well, now, don't you think that a people like this are worth saving ? I think so. Right here in the Indian Territory in this last week I understand that there were people who were denied their constitutional rights. We have, I believe, what is called the Fourteenth amendment to our Constitution, which guarantees to every man, regardless of race, color, creed, or former condition, equal rights and privileges; but right here in this Territory, regardless of that amendment, men were denied the rights of the franchise for fear of negro domination. Well, gentlemen, there is no danger of negro domination here. 690 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. When Captain Grayson said that some court ought to be allowed to pass on the qualifications of an Indian to transact his own business, but that it ought to be a United States court or a court established for that purpose, and should not be a local court, with a local judge elected by the people, he was speaking wisely. It should be some judge who is beyond the reach of local influences — some man who could listen and weigh and deliberate justly, and who would not be in fear of his election or popularity of the local sentiment. It seems to me that that "would be a wise way of deciding this question. It don't seem right that a man, simply because he has a red skin, should be denied the privileges of the Constitution to transact his business in his own way. It don't seem right to give a man something that is his, and say to him, "You shan't sell it, if he is capable of selling it in a reasonably safe way. And still it don't seem to be right to give these people full liberty. I have given you instances of the value that some of these simple people place on their inheritance. Some of them absolutely don't know Avhat it is worth. They sold it literally for less than a mess of pottage, and what are you going to do with them? It is not right that the restrictions should be removed, and it is not right that they should be inflexibly imposed on everybody. It seems to me that the suggestion made by Captain Grayson is a good one. I don't think you will listen to a better while here. They need some protec- tion — some of them — but when it is said that they all need it, it is just silly. It would be true of white men — plenty that I have known, it seemed to me, were in need of a guardian. It is all folderol to assert that every Indian is in need of a guardian. I am talking about the full bloods now. They are not. Many of them are just as fit to attend to their business as any white man; but it is the poorer ones — the ignorant ones, the uneducated ones — that do need some protection. They would fall a victim to the lures and wiles of some land company in a week if there Avas nothing restraining them from parting with their lands. But, gentlemen, I am trying to tell you about these things, and it is hard for me to do it. I know what I want to say, but I am not a public speaker. I am not gifted with the gift of eloquence, but I would give a great deal had I the power to lay a picture of my heart before you and show you all that is in it — ^the truth, the honesty of this peojale, and the pathos of their fate. I say I am not eloquent, but were I so I would tell you that the greatest joy to me is to go into the humble homes of these people — to go into the humble cabin of these full bloods — these so-called incompetent people, and on the mantel just above the rude fireplace what do I find but a well-worn copy of the Creek Testament — a faithful translation of our New Testament — and that translation was my mother's work ; and shall I say that all these people read that priceless book and find comfort in the message it conveys ? Yes, they read it, and they love it. Indeed they do. Tell me that these people are not true and honest. I go into their cabins and in every one of them I find this book, worn and showing every indication of being read and pondered over. Well has it been said that its message is peculiarly to the poor and lowly, for it came from one who was proud to register himself among that class. They are very earnest and devout — far more so than their white neighbors; I went to an Indian camp meeting once — it was here a few weeks ago — and it was held in a neighborhood that a few years ago was one of the JTIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES, 691 most disreputable and, dangerous in the whole Oreek Nation. It was a neighborhood that a few short years ago was the native haunt of the outlaw and the desperado. I went there, and what did I find? I found the place all filled with Indians. There was a part of the camp given over to the white people, and there they were selling cake and ice cream, and laughter and badinage went back and forth ; that was the only place that anything was sold on the ground, and it was patronized alike by the whites and Indians. Now, what I want to call attention to is the fact that the white people did not attend the services. They stood aroiind on the outside and talked and joked with each other. On the contrary, the Indians attended all the services, and they were so happy and joyous, they were so full of it, that they shook hands and laughed with each other and praised God, and were altogether so happy that it was good for any- one to see it; but the white people stood around on the outside and laughed and thought it was great fun to see the Indians acting. Now, who had the best of it there — who was the good in — the Indian or the white man ? Is the Indian really furnishing a show for these white people? The Indian came there from a sense of devotion and duty, the whites came there to witness something which to them was like a show — something that they could ridicule and make fun of. Now, which was influenced by the higher and worthier motive, the Indian or the white? I am using this to illustrate the fact of the essential difference between the Indian and the white. The Indian is more devout, and I believe more impressed with a sense of duty and obligation than the white, and that is what makes them more truth- ful and earnest and sincere. I believe, though, that my time is up and I must stop. Senator Teller. No ; go right ahead and finish in your own way. I am much interested in what you say and I believe my associates are also. Miss Robertson. Well, there is very little more that I could say, gentlemen. Q. Miss Robertson, I will ask you this — what proportion of these full-blood Creeks, or Creeks of any class or blood, read the Creek language ? — A. I think that I may safely say that 90 per cent of the Creek full bloods can read in their own language. Q. You think that 90 per cent can do it ? — A. I think so. It is a very simple language. Their alphabet only has 16 characters, and it is very easily learned. Q. And you Imow that language ? — A. Oh, yes, sir. They know it. I get letters written by them — I get letters from them written in their own language. Q. So they can write it as well as read it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What per cent of them, in your opinion, understand Eng- lish? — A. It is very difficult to tell what per cent of them do, Mr. Senator, because conditions will keep changing so constantly. Now, nearly all the half-breeds used to talk English, and there was a percentage of the full bloods that did it, and that has been practi- cally the dividing line between them. Another reason why there should not be an absolute cutting off of all the lands marked full blood is because in many cases there were mistakes made in making up the rolls. All the people on the rolls as full bloods are not, in 692 J^IVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. point of fact, full bloods. There were a great ijiany mistakes in that way. Q. How were these mistakes or errors made? — A. Well, I don't know any better way than to offer a case in point that will illustrate what I mean. For instance, a well-educated niece of my Indian brother-in-law, is not any more than a half blood, but by some mistake she was put on the full-blood roll. The way it was discov- ered was when arrangements were made for the sale of her land in order that she might buy the land of a neighbor that was more con- venient for her, but when that was desired to be done, when it was all ready to consummate, it was found that she was on the rolls as a full blood. And so it is that this woman who speaks as good Eng-**' lish as I do, and who in some respects is better educated than I, and who is married and has a husband who is a physician, a woman who is as intelligent and as refined and who has as nice a family, and is not more than a half blood, can not touch her land — that is can not sell it or dispose of it in any way, because she is placed on the full- blood roll by error. Q. Do you believe that the restrictions on the lands of the full bloods should be removed ? — A. I do not ; not absolutely. I think I explained how it should be done when done. Q. You believe it should be done upon due examination and judi- cial ascertainment and determination of the fact that the full blood is competent to transact his business, such judgment to issue out of some tribunal of competent jurisdiction? — A. Yes, sir-; and not a local tribunal at that; some tribunal presided over by a judge who would not be subject to popular favor or local clamor. Q. Well, do you believe that the restrictions on the lands of the half or mixed bloods should be removed ? — A. Yes, sir ; but I under- stand that that will be done by present enactment next August. That is my understanding of it. Now, I want to say this, if I were asked the question I would say that I would just as soon see the restrictions removed absolutely from the full bloods as the half breeds — that is, basing my saying so on their relative qualifications to manage their affairs, for I think there is not one whit of difference between them. I think the full bloods are every bit as well qualified to attend to their business as the half bloods. The only thing about it is that the mixed bloods on account of the strain of white in them are more assertive, and for that reason would probably more readily assert themselves if misfortune overtake them, but all the same they are just as liable to fall the victim of craft and guile as the full bloods, because of the strain of Indian blood in. them. If you want my opinion, I would say that I believe that they should all be bunched together. There should be no rule, inflexible rule, with which to judge them. Q. Then I take it that you mean that their qualifications to man- age their own affairs should be passed on by some court — ^regulated by some court? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller: Q. Are you a Cherokee by operation of law? — A. No, sir; I am neither Cherokee or Creek — I am just a plain everyday white. Notwithstanding that fact, every drop of my blood is in sympathy with the Indian. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 693 Q. I understood, or got the idea some way, that your people were admitted into the tribe? — A. No, sir; we were not, and I am more than thankful for it, for no one can say that it was through any selfish or financial motive that we were here. We were missionaries in the nation, and after the proposition had been voted down to make my mother an allottee and giving her land I looked well into it and felt that they had no right — I felt that the Creeks in their council had no right to alienate by adoption land that they only held in trust for their children, and I thought that it would not have been right if my mother had been made a citizen to have taken it. So I feel now that it was for the best that things turned out as they did, since now no one can say that any of our actions Avere dictated by selfish motives. Q. Are there any books published in the Creek language other than the New Testament ? — A. Well, yes ; the laws are codified and trans- lated. Q. Anything else ? — A. Nothing but the rules book translated and published by the missionaries. Q. Is there any newspaper jjublished among the Creeks? — A. There was in the Cherokee Nation, but not the Creeks. Q. There was a paper published by the Cherokees? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the name of that paper? — A. The Cherokee Ad- vocate. Q. And that is published no longer ? — A. No, sir ; the publication of the Cherokee Advocate is suspended — that is, I believe it is. I am not sure, however. I don't believe that I have seen it within a year. I understood that it was suspended. By Senator Brandegee: Q. One of the witnesses the other day stated that there were very few, if any, of the Indians who possessed mechanical skill, and Gen- eral Porter stated that the witness did not understand what was asked him, for there were such. What do you say about that? — A. Well, I have a great deal of knowledge about that. They are very skillful workers in metals. They have a good many blacksmiths among them, and they have also a great many native carpenters and a great many chair makers, and they are remarkably skillful considering the oppor- tunities they have. I believe that if many of them were given an equal opportunity they would stand fully up to the level of white craftsmen. A great many of the women make baskets — everybody down here knows that — and a great deal of their work is skillful and tasty. It is a fact that should excite wonder that they do as well as they do, having so few of the tools with which to do things and living as they do in scattered communities. Then another thing. Among them there has always been a good many pure white people who have had trades and handicrafts. Q. Well, take the case of the full bloods. When they have some job of work to be done, would they get one of their own kind of people to do it or would they go to some white craftsman or work- man to' do it? What I want to get at is, if they have something to do, do they prefer to have it done by a white man rather than by one of their own people? — A. Well, over here at the Alabama town church one of the good Indian brothers came to church to attend service, and he forgot to cover the fire in his cabin before he left, and 694 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. it caught fire and was burned down as a result of his carelessness, and there was a call made upon the brothers and sisters to help that brother out, and the sisters went to work and cooked the food and the brothers gathered with their teams and their axes, and they cut the logs and hauled them up and put them together, and by night there was another complete cabin, as good and better than the one that was burned. Now, I was there and saw that done myself. They com- menced in the morning and by night they had it completed ; and it was all chinked with wood and daubed with mud. You know that in the case of the ordinary cabin the interstices between the logs where the space was large was filled as well as could be with pieces of wood split out for that purpose, and then it was all daubed over with mud, and then they went to work and built another for a store- house, and so the result was that they had two very comfortable cab- ins built that day before the sun went down. They would built the fireplace out of logs daubed and covered with mud so that the fire would not reach them, and altogether it was a very good cabin. Now, that was done down here in the Alabama neighborhood, on the Frisco Railroad, in the Creek Nation. Now, this was done in as expeditious a manner as any people could do it, and they were all full-blood Indians that were there; there was not two people there amongst them that could talk English. Q. Did they have towns of any considerable size in this country before the whites came in here? — A. No, sir. What they called their towns in those days were political divisions rather than places where people gathered and lived together. The people then lived scattered all around over the nation, you know ; but still, there were towns, as they were called, but it meant a sort of political subdivision, and this place I speak of where this happened was in what is called the Alabama town, or center, which was their old meeting ground. Now, these people were little farmers, but in their way they were industrious — in their way. It is true that they did not know how to " hustle " as a Avhite man does,^ but they lived a clean and healthy life, and according to their standard they were industrious. They did not need much. Their wants were simple. It did not take much to clothe a man or a woman decently in those days according to the standard that they had. It did not require much' to supply all their simple wants, and what does any man want more than that? They had plenty to eat and drink and with which to clothe them- selves, and they felt that was enough. They had no occasion for five or ten story buildings or great mansions; they don't need it or want it, and would not know what to do with it if they had it. Life in such an environment would not be life to me. I am perfectly happy down here in my little three-room house by the Arkansas River, where I can go and spend my life among the trees that I knew and loved so well in the days when there were no whites here but myself, and this land was free from the unrest and turmoil that now afflicts it. No, gentlemen, these surroundings here suit me far better than all the pomp and glitter and show of Fifth avenue, and no mansion built by hands can hold forth the attractions to me that mv little home out here holds. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 695 By the Chairman : Q. Were there any stores in what you called these towns or divi- sions ?^A. There were a few Indian store keepers, but not many. They were not merchants in the sense that merchants are understodd. But there were licensed traders in those days — men licensed to do business. Q. That is, white traders, who paid for the privilege of doing business with the Indians ? — A. Yes, sir. That was before the town sites were made and before there was so many people here. These traders came in and business was pretty keen and a good deal of com- petition, so these people felt that it was necessary to get more people in here to make business for them, and they set up this agitation to open up this country, that has at last borne fruit. Q. Is there any sentiment among the younger generation of Creeks to go into the cities and go into business with white men when they know how to speak English? — A. Well, it takes a good deal of cap- ital. There has been a good deal of that in the Creek Nation, except- ing in — well, no noncitizens are allowed to handle any business, or were not in the old days in the country, so the young men went into business more. Q. Well, that hardly answers my question? — A. Perhaps I don't understand it. Q. My question is this, among the rising generation of young Creeks is there a disposition to go into the towns and go into business, either for themselves or in the emplov of someone else, where they can speak English — is there a disposition of that kind among the young men in the Creek and these other nations? Or is the dispo- sition among them to lead the same life their fathers and grand- fathers have led on their allotments where they were born, or, as I said, is the disposition amongst them to go into the cities and change their manner of life? — A. Well, I can't say as to what the general disposition is, but a good many of them do come to town and change their manner of life completely. Q. Full bloods ? — A. Well, very nearly if not quite full bloods. Q. But you can't say that that is frequent enough to be called a tendency in that direction? — A. No, sir. While many of them do, still it is a small proportion of the total number. If they came, or a majority of them came, they would overrun the towns. By Senator Teller: ^ Q. Well, the ones that do come to the towns and take up commercial and other pursuits, they speak English don't they? — A. Yes, sir. There is another reason for this tendency, and that is that they can't live any longer as they lived in the old times. In the old days they were all more or less hunters, and each year a great many of them went west and hunted, and there was lots of game right around here ; but the game is all gone now, and the whole country is open and free to anyone wishing it. All the land was as free as the air, providing you did not encroach on someone who had already located himself and improved the land, and now when each man must be content with his allotment of 160 or 80 acres, or whatever it may be, it seems hard to a man who not so very many years ago coi^ld go where he pleased and all was as much his as it was any other man's. It is a hard thing for them to understand that such a limited tract is theirs 696 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. now, and that other tract is John Brown's, when at one time they could travel for days around and all that they surveyed was theirs and they felt the sense of personal ownership. That is the thing that is especially hard for these people to learn. They can not bring them- selves to a realization that this magnificent domain that once was the nation's is no longer the nation's, but belongs to the individual. I remember the old times when they had the old town farm and the people came together at different times and worked it. These people were a religious people — are yet — and they worked for the common good and were glad and joyous when doing it. Never more so. None more faithful were in the keeping of the faith. Why, those old full bloods felt and kept the spirit of worship. They worshipped the spirit, and while they were called idolaters, I somehow fancy that ' they knew about the truth, for they had a faith that made them brave and loyal and true, and merciful, too, after their standard By Senator Clakk, of Montana : Q. What denominations were represented here in point of num- bers ? — A. Well, first comes the Baptists, and then comes the Method- ists ; but I believe the Presbyterians did more in the way of educating them and educating their children. All the denominations did more or less mission and educational work down here along mission lines, but the greatest in point of numbers is the Baptists and then comes the Methodists. Q. Are there a large number of the full bloods that belong to these religious denominations 1 — A. A very large proportion of them do. Q. About what proportion of them do belong to these religious denominations, according to your best judgment? Of course, I don't expect that you can tell exactly, but in your best judgment about what proportion of them ? — A. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but a large number of them do. A good many of the full bloods still cling to their old faith, which is a spirit worship — the worship of the Great Spirit. Away back in the mountains and more inaccessible portions a great many still cling to it; but that is gradually dying out, I believe, and does not amount to anything like it used to. Of course, there is not nearly so many of those as there are Christians. Q. Has there been any history .of the Five Civilized Tribes written since the time that they came from Florida and Georgia and these other States ? — A. No, sir ; no connected history. Now, in this town I am supposed to be a sort of a walking encyclopedia of their history whenever it does not interfere with the democratic doctrine ; when I quote history for them and tell them about it they don't like it, for I have to tell them that these restrictions were put on them in Andrew Jackson's time and it has been continued right on down until recently, and look at the old treaty of 1866 ; well , it is all right. They had a case in Muscogee the other day, where they had to look after the colored vote. You understand that when the treaty of 1866 was made the Indians were divided ; I mean that before that they were all divided up in the civil war. The Choctaws and Chickasaws, the Indians, almost all went with the Confederacy, for they were slave-holders; they had a large number of slaves, and of course it was only natural that they should look at it in that way ; at any rate they went to the Confederacy, and the only wonder is that they did not all go with the Confederacy, all of them; for the United States Government FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 697 withdrew all the soldiers from the military posts, and the country was left open to the Confederacy, with Arkansas a slave State on the east, Texas a slave State on the south, and then Missouri also a slave State on the northeast — the only wonder I say is that all the Indians in this country did not go to the Confederacy. The Confederacy sent commissioners down here and asked the Indians to help them; what were they to — what were they to do; that was the question that agitated them, for they did not know what to do. When they had made the treaties of 1828 and lo32 and the later ones they had in each case promised to stand by the Government at Washington, and now when they were met with threats of destruction and ven- geance if they did not go in and help the Southern Confederacy, what were they to do. The Federal Government was so far away and the Confederacy was so near; their protectors, the people who had under these treaties promised to aid them and protect them against all their enemies had left them to their own resources, being helpless for the time being to assist them, and to all their pleadings for assist- ance turned a deaf ear to them ; and yet through it all the majority of these Indians were loyal to the Union, and many, many of them went at great trouble and expense, walking and riding for hundreds of miles, in many instances, to enlist in the Federal army, where they served as soldiers until the close of the war, and then returned to their homes to find everything devastated, their homes burned, cattle and live stock driven away, and themselves reduced to a condition of actual beggary. Well, when the war was over the country was depopulated — the slave-holding Indians had all gone south ; that is why it is so black around here, for the negroes remained. They did not leave, and hundreds of others who were never slaves of the Indians came here also, and after the Avar was over, when the old masters came back here — for this was where these old slave masters lived before the war, around here — but when they came back here they said that they would not live with the free negroes and they would go somewhere else — which they did — to live, and that is how Muskogee came to be practically the negro settlement, for these negroes were freed by the war and they were imposed on the Indians after the war as a pun- ishment for the sins of the ones that joined the Confederacy, the commissioners forgetting the virtues and recommendations of the many loyal Indians who fought for the Union, as it has been charged before you, and imposing an indiscriminate punishment upon the innocent as well as the guilty. These negroes were declared free, and were free,' and since have been known as the " freedmen," and they shared, in the allotment of lands, which they nearly all sold promptly, and that is the reason why there was so much land for sale here around Muskogee, but when the ratification of the treaty of 1866 was had it seemed that the bulk or the preponderance of the Indian vote had gone south, and it was seen by the people who had gone north that they would be outvoted, so it was proposed to admit these people around here — votes — which they proceeded to do. Now, it has been charged that this was a condition imposed on the Indians by the United States as a punishment upon the Indians for going with the Confederacv, but I feel that in justice to the Government of the United States this should be explained as it really was. It is not fair to say that they were compelled to give the negroes civil rights. It S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 45 698 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. was done as a political act so that the negroes would help the Indians who fought with the Union to outvote the Indians who went with Confederacy. At the conference in which that was decided on they had a negro interpreter, and he helped the good work along to the best of his ability. By Senator Teller : Q. I think the record will show that the proposal came from the Indians themselves. — A. Yes, *sir; I think so. The Choctaws and Chickasaws, who were almost to a man in arms against the Union, were not required by the Government to give as much to their slaves as was given voluntarily by the Indians up here. The Cherokees freed their own slaves. They voluntarily emancipated them. • Q. Did they have as great a number proportionally as the other Indian nations had? — A. They had a greater number, but not in proportion to their numbers. They had a greater number of slaves, but that was because there was so many more Cherokees. They had about two to one in the Northern army as compared with the numbers in the Southern army. The Chairman. I desire to say that the committee is about to close its hearings here at Muskogee. We are very glad, indeed, that there has been such a generous response to our invitation in the proffering of information upon these matters of great general interest to the people of the Indian Territory, and which, I assure the people here, have been of great interest to the committee, in order that the com- mittee may in an imperfect way inform the Senate of the United States, whose commission they bear, of the true situation of things in the Indian Territory. There are a number of gentlemen who have asked to be heard whose requests have not been complied with. This has been in every case because they were requests to be heard upon matters of personal inter- est — that is, matters personal to the party making the request. The committee has felt all the time that its work here was to deal with general questions of importance to all of the people, and not with individual cases. In fact the committee has no authority or power to deal with these individual cases. There have been some who have asked to be heard this afternoon, and it is the regret of the committee that we have to close this hearing this evening without hearing from all who desire to speak upon these general matters; but you will understand, of course, that even acting in the most gen- erous spirit there must in the nature of things come a time when we must close this hearing at some point. That time has come. We hope that the information you have so kindly tendered and which we have gathered will prove to be of benefit both to you and the General Gov- ernment of the United States. It desires to extend its thanks to the people for giving this information, and it desires to extend its thanks also in another direction to the chamber of commerce of this city, which has so greatly aided in providing such good facilities for hold- ing these sessions. The committee now stands adjourned to meet at the city of McAlester on Monday morning at 9 o'clock. So the committee adjourned to meet at McAlester, Ind. T., on Mon- day next, November 19, 1906, at 9 a. m. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. G99 McAlester, Ind. T., Monday, November 19, 1906. The committee met at 9 a. m. in the assembly room of the Hotel Busby. Present : Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming, Long, Brandegee, Teller, and Clark, of Montana. The Chairman. Gentlemen, this is a special committee acting luider authority of the United States Senate, and is visiting Indian Terri- tory for the sole purpose of collecting information in regard to the conditions that exist here, so far as they may possibly aifect future legislation that may be necessary. The desire of the committee is to gather from all possible sources such information as it may be able to obtain that will serve as a guide in doing this — that is, in enacting this possible necessary legislation. We wish particularly to get at the great questions which are concern- ing you as a whole Territory. The question of the coal-land segregation, its present condition; the possibilities of good for the future which may come to the Choc- taw and Chickasaw nations from that segregation, both as to the mineral and as to the surface parts thereof ; the question of the aliena- tion of lands ; the question of the leasing of lands ; the question of the removal of restrictions— all of these are questions of general import- ance, and we are here seeking information particularly upon them. Of course, individual cases which would not fall within the general class, the committee, from lack of time as well as from lack of author- ity, will be unable to consider, but with reference to these matters and any others of general importance we are ready and willing to learn, and we invite your hearty cooperation. We want it further distinctly understood that the committee, so far as its time will allow, invites and desires to hear the views of everybody, and we would like this information as to the desire, wish, and purpose of the committee to be scattered as it were broadcast to the end that as many may be informed of our purpose, desire, and mission here as is possible. We invite the views of anybody and everybody to be presented here who have interests in the matters. There is no cut and dried program, gentlemen, nor has there been since the committee came into the Ter- ritory. This information has been given at each place where we have held sessions and will be given at each point where we shall hereafter hold them. We desire this information, if possible, to precede us, so that all may have the knowledge that the sessions of the committee are open to anybody and everybody. We want to get at the best things that can be done for this Territory, and we invite everybody to come before us and express himself freely as to his views about what is the best thing to do and the best way to do it ; and we hope in this way that there will be something got at that will be valuable to you and also to this committee, whose duty it is to report to the United States Senate at the next session of Congress. We have thought that possibly at this session it would be best to take up the question of the segregated coal lands, and with that in view we have asked Inspector Wright, the Indian inspector of the Territory, to be present and inform the committee as to the present status ol these lands, both under the law and the investigations thus far conducted bv the Indian department of the Department of the Interior. Mr. Wright, we will now hear you. 700 i"IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. STATEMENT OF MR. J. GEORGE WRIGHT, INDIAN INSPECTOR FOR INDIAN TERRITORY. Inspector Weight. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I will endeavor, as best I can, to explain to the committee the situa- tion with regard to the coal and asphalt lands at the time the first treaty was entered into with the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations in 1898. That agreement provided that the coal and asphalt lands or mineral lands should be reserved for the benefit of all the Indians; that the surface of the lands should all be allotted, and that the coal, asphalt, and minerals should be reserved for the benefit of the tribes or the members of the tribes; that the leases which had been previously" made for mining coal with the Choctaw authorities should remain in force and should be renewed at the time they expired, subject to the provisions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw agreements. Prior to the time of the agreement referred to, under the laws of the Choctaw Nation, parties desiring to mine coal in that nation made application to and received and entered into a national contract with the Choctaw authorities. Those contracts, as I remember, do not describe any particular tract that shall be mined, but give gen- eral permission to come into the Choctaw Nation and mine coal, and pay to the Choctaw national authorities a stipulated amount of royalty, which at the time of the Choctaw and Chickasaw agreement was as stipulated in those national contracts, at the rate of 12^ cents j)er ton for coal mined and run over a 1-inch screen. The Chairman. "What was the area of these leases? Inspector Weight. The contract that these parties had with the nations did not describe any area, but I will endeavor to explain the matter. After procuring such contracts it became necessary for the parties holding these national contracts to procure the permission of any individual Indian to mine coal on land which he or they con- trolled, as under the lease from the Choctaw Nation any citizen of the nation who discovered coal at any particular point at the out- crop was permitted to control that coal within the radius of a circle of one mile from that point of discovery; therefore after any indi- viduals or corporations had secured a national contract with the nation and desired to mine coal at any particular point they were required to make another contract with any individual mine owner within the radius of the country that he controlled by this circle of 1 mile. Some of the contracts, however, did describe a stated area, especially the contracts secured by the Missouri, Kansas and Texas Railway Company, and it is also my recollection that the same was true in the case of the Choctaw, Olahoma and Gulf Railway. I don't know just what they are, but others who were interested will undoubtedly explain the area of other contracts of a similar char- acter. I don't know the area of these two contracts, but others will be here who will give you that information. Under the Choctaw and Chickasaw agreements it is provided that such contracts shall be continued until they expire, where they were in operation in 1897. Other contracts which either of these corporations had with the Choc- taw authorities and on which active operations had not commenced were not recognized, and individual contracts which they had with FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 701 citizens of the nation Avere by the Choctaw and Chickasaw agree- ments declared void. In other words, the contracts which they had with the nation and under which they were operating at a certain date in 1897 were confirmed and ratified and continued until they expired, which were at different dates, and when they would expire they were to get new leases under the provisions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw agreements; but where the leases, which they had with the citizens, Avhich at that time, in addition to the 12^ cents a ton royalty, which they paid under the provisions of their lease from the national authorities and in which they paid to the indi- vidual owners 6^ cents a ton royalty were declared void and no longer in effect. The Choctaw and Chickasaw agreement provided further that there should be two coal trustees appointed, one by the executive of the Choctaw Nation and one by the executive of the Chicksaw Na- tion, who were to be considered as coal trustees, and the mines were to be operated under the supervision of these coal trustees, who in turn were to act under the instructions and supervision of the Secre- tary of the Interior. Immediately after the agreement was passed in 1898 two coal trustees were so appointed to make their headquarters at South McAlester. Various national contracts had with the nation were con- tinued for some time until they expired; they were recognized and operated until they expired. Others applied to the Department and got new contracts in accordance with the agreement before the expi- ration of their national contracts as they had the privilege of doing, unless they desired to wait until their contracts expired. There were a number of those national contracts made, and if any since then expired or have been taken under the provisions of that agreement^ — and there is not now and has not been for several years any of those national contracts in existence The Chairman. They have all expired ? Inspector Weight. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What was a national contract? Inspector Wright. The national contracts to which I referred or the contracts which I referred to as " national contracts " were the contracts made by individuals or corporations Avith the tribal author- ities in the Choctaw Nation. Q. Before the abolition of the tribal form of government? — A. Under the provisions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw agreements people got leases from the tribal government which authorized them to mine coal. Parties or corporations seeking to get leases under the provisions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw agreement, which provided that no leases should be for a larger area than 960 acres and which made application upon forms prescribed by the Depart- ment of the Interior to the inspector in the Territory. The course pursued with reference to these leases was that they were — I should say these applications — the course pursued in reference to them was that when received by the inspector they were in turn referred to the coal trustees for report and investigation to ascertain the condition of the lands desired to be leased, the amount of esti- mated coal thereunder, as nearly as could be ascertained, and also as to the standing and ability of the parties to operate the lease 702 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. which they applied for. After these reports were received from the trustees, such further investigation as seemed advisable was had or made by the inspector and a full report submitted to the Secretary of the Interior with this application or applications. The Secretary considered these applications and the report thereon and if they were approved, then the applicants were notified to enter into leases with the coal trustees, and submit them for the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. All the coal leases are made between the individuals and these coal trustees and are then submitted to the Secretary of the Interior for his approval. Those leases contained certain conditions — and I will furnish the committee with a copy of them at a later date, for I find I haven't them here, else I would do it now. Senator Long. If it will not interrupt your statement I wish you would explain about these national contracts which previous to this had been approved by act of Congress — what was done with them ? Inspector Weight. There was one class of leases which were held by the Choctaw, Oklahoma and Gulf Railway Company covering large areas of land — covering a certain large area; and what that area was I could not say, for I don't now remember what it was, but it covered a large field, and which was granted to that road by the act of Congress, I think, in 1890 ; and it was guaranteed by the terms of the agreement that they should have new leases, and they made applica- tion for new leases — for 30 new leases covering 960 acres each, which application was granted by the Secretary of the Interior. I think they were granted by Mr. Bliss, the Choctaw and Chickasaw agree- ment providing , for the making of these leases, provided that a royalty of 15 cents per ton should be paid for all coal mined. The national contracts to which I referred, however, are still in existence and will remain in existence until they expire if they so desire, pro- vide for a royalty of 12^ cents per txin for coal passing over a 1-inch screen ; and when the Department first required all operators, includ- ing those who were working under previous national contracts, to pay 15 cents royalty on all coal mined, those holding these national con- tracts contended that their contracts were continued in full force and effect under all the terms of these national contracts, which was that they should only pay 12^ cents a ton on all coal passing over a 1-inch screen. Those, therefore, who took new leases were required to pay 15 cents per ton on all coal mined as provided in the agreement, and they contended that it was an unreasonable burden on them to be compelled to pay that amount, while others should pay a lesser amount. That agreement with the Indians provided that the Secretary of the Interior could regulate that quantity or amount of royalty, either reducing it or increasing it as he saw fit and proper. Under that condition of affairs all these various operators paying different amounts of royalties, the operators requested the Secretary to consider a new basis of royalty; and on that proposition extensive hearings were had by the then Secretary, Mr. Bliss ; and as the result of these hearings he fixed and changed the basis to 10 cents per ton for coal passing over a 1-inch screen. Subsequently operators requested that a mine-run basis be fixed by the Secretary, which the inspector recom- mended for the reason that it was difficult for them to ascertain and keep track of the output of mines where they were not obliged to pay FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 703 anything as royalty on the coal j)assing through this screen, and get- ting the exact royalty for the nations, and therefore the Secretary did fix the royalty on a mine-run basis, after which time on all coal taken from the mines, including slack, the royalty was to be paid to the Indians. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. Did he change the royalty to them ? — A. The operators sub- mitted figures contending that on the 10-cent basis of royalty for screened coal the difference between that and mine-run coal would be at the rate of 6f cents for the mine-run, their contention being that the percentage of slack they took out would make that difference; but the Secretary, Mr. Hitchcock, after an extensive investigation and hearings before him, fixed the royalty at 8 cents instead of 6f cents, as the operators contended it should be, and that is the royalty basis that has been in force and the royalty that is paid at the present time. Q. Eight cents per ton? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On mine-run coal? — A. Yes, sir. The manner of the opera- tion of these mines, as I say — the amount of royalty and the general provisions are under these two coal trustees. By the Chairman : Q. Is that still the case ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. Who are the present trustees? — A. Hampton Tucker for the Choctaw Nation and Willis for the Chickasaw Nation. Q. They are compensated how for their services? — A. They are each of them paid $4,000 a year for their services by these different nations. Q. The Government does not pay them? — A. No, sir; they are paid by the Indian nations. Q. So they are paid by the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations? — A. Yes, sir. Q. At the rate of $4,000 a year?— A. Yes, sir; they are paid $4,000 a year each. , By Senator Clark of Montana : Q. Are they Indians or white men ? — A. They are Indians. Q. What are their duties? — A. It is their duty to visit the different mines and see how they are operated, and to visit the offices of the different companies operating these mines and examine their books, and ascertain from month to month the amount of coal mined. Un- der the regulations of the Department and the terms of the various coal leases, the operators are required to remit to the Indian agent at the Indian agency sworn statements of the amount of coal mined each month, such statements to be remitted not later than the 25th of the succeeding month; and the trustees visit their offices and mines and ascertain in their own way (and independently of the statement sent by the coal-mining operators to the Indian office) the actual amount of coal mined, and they embody the information and knowl- edge they get in that way in their own report, which they submit quarterly to the inspector, which report contains the result of their investigations and checking up of the books of the coal operators. 704 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. This report of the coal trustees shows the amount of coal mined as disclosed by their examinations and investigations, and the amount of royalty that should be paid on it at the rate of 8 cents per ton dur- ing the period covered by the report. That is the amount of royalty that should be paid to the nations during that period. This report, as I stated, is sent to the inspector's office, and is referred by the in- spector to the Indian agent's office, where it is checked over with the report made by the coal companies; it is checked with the amounts that have actually been received from the companies ; and if there is any difference in them they are investigated or referred back to the trustees for further investigation until it is found they are correct. This is the manner in which we check over and investigate the matter , until we see that the proper royalty is collected and remitted, and is the plan that is now in force in the office. Q. When do they pay their balance of 4 cents ? — A. When do they pay the balance of 4 cents ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. I don't understand. Q. I believe I understood you to say that at one time they paid 4 cents of the royalty, that would be one-half of it that they paid at one time ? — A. No, sir ; I don't think I said that. They paid 12J cents at one time. Q. No ; you don't understand. Speaking of the 8 cents royalty I understood you to say that they paid one-half of it at one time. I understood you to say that the first payment was at the rate of 4 cents per ton, but I may have misunderstood you. — A. I think you must be mistaken. I don't think I said that. If I did I didn't mean to so state it. The amount of royalty at the present time that the opera- tors pay is 8 cents per ton on the actual amount of coal mined and taken out of the mine, or in other words royalty is paid at the rate of 8 cents per ton on mine run coal mined. Q. Well, I misunderstood you, that is all right. — A. I thought so. As I stated before all the lands should be allotted and the coal and asphalt under the lands should be reserved for the benefit of the tribes wherever found in the two nations; and the amount of royal- ties paid over to the credit of the two tribes was to be used and is used for the education of the children of Indian blood. Now, the amount of royalty collected and the amount of coal mined during the last three years is as follows : From July 1, 1903, to June 30, 1904, there was 3,198,862 tons of coal mined. From July 1, 1904, to June 30, 1905, there was 2,859,516 tons mined, and From July 1, 1905, to June 30, 1906, there was 2,722,200 tons of coal mined. All this coal was mined on the basis of 8 cents per ton royalty, and the amount of royalty is paid to the Indian agent and is placed to the credit of the tribes at the departments, and is then used under the supervision and direction of the departments by the superin- tendent of Indian schools for the maintenance of these various Indian schools as far as it will go. I might say in connection with that statement that it is sufficient to maintain all the schools of the Choctaw Nation, but it is not suificient to maintain wholly those of the Chickasaw Nation, for the reason that by the terms of the agreement this coal property and the royalty arising therefrom is construed to belong to the Indians pro rata or per capita — - FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 705 Q. In both of them? — A. Yes, sir; and the Chickasaws have much less population than the Choctaws. It was always considered until the rolls were finally gotten up, and the rolls so found that the Choc- taws had about three-fourths and the Chickasaws about one-fourth. By the Chairman : Q/Mr. Wright, would it not follow, then, that the amount ob- tained from the fund by each child, or for each child, would be substantially the same — ^that is, if it was distributed on the per capita basis the amount paid for each child, no matter which nation it was in, would be substantially the same? — A. Yes, sir; that is the purpose of the agreement. Q. That was the purpose and design of the agreement? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then it costs more to support a child in the schools of the Chick- asaw Nation than it does to support a child of the Choctaw Nation in school? — A. No, sir; but the population of the Choctaw Nation is greater than the population of the Chickasaw Nation by about three- fourths to one- fourth. Q. Well, what I am getting at is if there are three times as many Choctaws as there is Chickasaws there would be substantially three times as many children ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, the ratio of money paid to each nation and the ratio of children are the same substantially ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What I want to know is why does it cost so much more to sup- port a Chickasaw child in school than it does to support a Choctaw child in school ? — A. Well, the Choctaws have different laws govern- ing the education of children than the Choctaws have, but they only get their proportion of the royalty that applies to their schools, and they have heretofore used their own tribal funds for the education of their children outside. Q. Still, I don't think you quite get my meaning. We will sup- pose that there are a thousand Chickasaw children ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And three thousand Choctaw children ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, on the general basis, or under the agreement, the funds would be divided on that basis, three times as much going to the Choctaws as goes to the Chickasaws, for the reason that there are three times as many children in the Choctaw Nation as there are in the Chickasaw Nation ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, as a general proposition these funds are divided as the children are divided and in the same proportion — say, on the basis of three to one ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The funds would be divided up on the basis that the children are divided between the two nations ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now it costs more than one-fourth as much to support these Chickasaw schools as it costs to support the Choctaw schools — I mean by that, pro rata for the children in the schools ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Now, why is that — why is it in other words, that it costs more per capita to educate a Chickasaw child than it does to educate a Choctaw child? Senator Long. I don't understand that it does. A. It does not. 706 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By the Chairman : Q. You say that three-fourths of the royalty derived from the operation of these coal mines will support the Choctaw schools, but it won't suffice to support the Chickasaw schools, although the children in the Chickasaw schools are not as numerous as the children in the Choctaw schools in the proportion of three-fourths to one-f ourt,[i ? — A. Here is what I mean; that the amount of money received was sufficient to support the Choctaw children — that is, their proportion of the fund received from the coal was sufficient for their national school purposes; but the proportion received by the Chickasaws is not sufficient to educate their children, because of the manner in which they have heretofore conducted their schools under their tribal laws. ' Q. Well, that is what I was trying to get at. Mr. J. F. McMuREAY. Pardon me one moment. I am attorney for the Choctaws and Chickasaws, and if I am permitted to do so, T desire to call Mr. Wright's attention to one thing. I don't think it ought to cost any more to educate a Chickasaw child than a Choctaw child, but it does cost more for this reason ; the Government expenses in handling the Choctaw schools is the same as in the Chickasaw Nation, because they have the same expenses that the Chickasaws have. The Chickasaws have always felt that they have too much supervision — that they have too much general expenses. They have always felt that, and that is the reason, I suppose, it costs so much to educate a Chickasaw child. If you were to take the same number of Chickasaw children it would be quite an amount. The Chairman. That is illustrated by the statement that Mr. Wright made about these two inspectors or trustees — each at $4,000 annually, one of whom, I understand, is paid by the Chickasaw Nation, and the other is paid by the Choctaw Nation. Now, does that expense come out of the fund that is apportioned; so much to each nation ? Mr. Weight. Do you mean out of the coal funds ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. No, sir; that expense does not come out of the coal funds at all. Q. Well, that is part of the expense connected with the collection of this coal fund, is it not ? — A. Yes, sir ; strictly speaking it is, but they make the appropriation to pay these salaries out of the national funds independent of the coal royalties. Mr. McMuRRAY. I want to suggest that Mr. Wright in his theory is correct about that; that is, about the payment of these expenses, but as a matter of fact the trustees of the Choctaw Nation and the Chickasaw Nation are not being paid at all, and have not been paid for a number of months. The money was appropriated and set apart for the payment of these salaries many months ago, but the fact is that the Secretary of the Interior stopped the payment and would not permit it to be paid. He did that many months ago, and as a matter of fact neither of these trustees has been paid anything at all since that time. As it happened, they were lucky enough to be able to live during the interim without pay and travel around and do their work, paying their own expenses ; but that is the fact that the Secretary months ago stopped their salaries or the payment of their salaries, as well as the salaries of the other officers of the nation, and none of them have had any money since that time. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 707 The Seceetaky. The Secretary has stopped the payment of the money ? Mr. McMtjeeay. Yes, sir; the money to pay the salaries of these coal trustees and the other officers of the nations was appropriated long ago, but it can't be paid without the approval of the Secretary, and he is withholding his approval. Mr. Wright. That takes vip a question, gentlemen, that is hardly pertinent to the matter we were discussing. As to the manner in which these funds have been held up. Senator Teller. Well, we would like to hear about that. Mr. Wright. That will come up later. Senator Teller. Will you reach it before you get through ? Mr. Wright. Yes, sir ; that is an entirely foreign matter, but I will present it at another time. Now, if you will pardon me just one moment, I will refer to the statement made by Mr. McMurray. T may be entirely mistaken about it, and if I am I desire to be corrected. The Choctaw schools from the time of the agreement and under the provisions of the Choctaw agreement were conducted entirely under the regulations of the Department, were they not? Mr. McMuRR/iY. Yes, sir ; for about two years and a half. Mr. Wright. And the Chickasaws have been after that ? Mr. McMurray. No, sir. Mr. Wright. The Chickasaw schools have been maintained under their own supervision, have they not? Mr. McMurray. No; not entirely; it has been under the joint su- pervision of the Government and the nation. Mr. Wright. Well, the only supervision that the Government has exercised over these schools has been by the supervisor stationed there to consult and advise with them, in accordance with the terms of the agreement entered into between the Government and the Chickasaw Nation and the Secretary representing the Government, as I understand it. Mr. McMurray. Yes, sir; that is correct. Mr. Wright. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Chickasaw schools are maintained entirely in accordance with the laws and customs of the Chickasaw Nation, and provide for one thing, and that is, where the burden of the expense in the education of their children has been — ^that any child must attend the neighborhood school, or what is called the day school, and that the people with whom the child boards shall be paid at the rate of $10 a month for each of their children who are attending a near-by school, and that is what has made it so very expensive for the Chickasaw Nation; and that will explain, in a measure, why their expenses have been much larger for the educa- tion of their children than in the Choctaw Nation. Mr. McMureay'. I think that one of the chief reasons — since we have got into this issue — I think that one of the chief reasons why the Choctaws have been cheaper than the ChickasaWs is this: The Choctaws, two or three years ago, had a Choctaw supervisor cut out and taken away, and all their supervision was taken away, and since that time the Choctaw children, or a great many of them, have not been attending school near so closely as the Chickasaw children have J?een. Down here in the Choctaw Nation many of the full bloods won't send their children to school at all. 708 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Long. What is there to this statement about the Chick- asaws paying the jDarents of the children for their board when the children are attending- school? Mr. McMuEEAY. They have done it. Q. Upon what theory? Mr. McMuERAY. They have done it upon the theory that the money that was so paid out did not belong to the parents, but that it be- longed to the child, and therefore the child had a right to have it paid out that way for its maintenance. Senator Teller. It belongs to the school fund ? Mr. McMtjeeat. No, sir; that it belongs to the child himself or herself. They hold that it belongs directly to the child, and they* have always felt that their children are entitled to their share of the money. Senator Beandegee. The inspector was removed, you say ? Mr. McMuEEAY. The inspector was taken out — he was removed and his connection with the schools ceased two or three years ago. Q. By whom? Mr. McMuEEAY. By the Secretary. Q. By the Secretary of the Interior ? Mr. McMuEEAY. Yes, sir. Q. So the inspection of the schools is now entirely under the United States Government officials? Mr. McMuEEAY. Yes, sir; and they have felt very much disgrun- tled over it. Senator Tellee. You say they are disgruntled ? Mr. McMuEEAY. Yes, sir ; they don't like it a little bit— they think they have not been treated right. Senator Tellee. Well, perhaps they have not. Mr. McMtTEEAY. They are very sure they haven't been treated right. The Chairman. Well, Mr. Wright, you may proceed. Mr. Weight. Mr. Chairman, as I was about to state, the manage- ment of the coal leases, or rather the basis of the coal-lease question, is this: Coal leases are made by the Secretary of the Interior now, under the terms of the agreement with the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations up to 1902. Then a supplemental agreement with the Choc- taw and Chickasaw nations was ratified by them on September 25, 1902, and in that supplemental agreement it was provided that no more coal leases should be made, and that the coal and asphalt terri- tory, or the area covered by such mineral, should be ascertained and these lands containing such minerals should be set aside — that is, the lands not allotted should be set aside and segregated, and to be dis- posed of and not allotted ; and the previous agreement provided that the surface of all the land in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations should be allotted and the coal and asphalt thereunder should be reserved for the tribe, but the supplemental agreement provided that no more leases should be made, but the coal lands, instead of being reserved, should l)e segregated under direction of the President and set aside and not allotted, but should be disposed of in such manner as Congress might see fit; therefore there have been no leases made since 1902. That supplemental agreement further provided that the Indians who were already located upon these lands and had improvements FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 709 made upon their locations should be paid for the improvements that they had upon these lands, and they were to be paid out of the tribal funds for their improvements, and they were to be allotted land else- where. By order of the Department an inspector — the regular Indian inspector, Mr. Beatty — made an appraisement of the property that belonged to these different Indians located on these lands. The Chairman. When was that done, Mr. Wright? Mr. Weight. About two years ago. Q. Did he make a report of that appraisement? — A. Yes, sir; that report was made directly to the Department, and while I can't state the amount — while I can't state the aggregate amount of that ap- praisement, because it was not given to me officially — well, I will not attempt to be accurate, for the reason that there was no official report made to me, nor was it stated to me in any official way what it was ; but I can give you the amount about that these improvements came to as it did come to me, which I think is about correct in a gen- eral way. Q. Well, what was it ? — A. While, as I say, I can not be absolutely correct, I think that the amount these improvements so appraised came to about $200,000, or perhaps it was $220,000. Q, That was the amount that the citizens of the nation who were living on the land and had improvements were to be paid ? — A. Yes, sir; for their improvements merely. Q. And they were to be allotted land elsewhere ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, has the amount of that appraisement been paid? — A. No, sir. Q. Now, can you tell us why that amount has not been paid? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, please do so. — A. After that report and appraisement was made to the Department Senator Teller. Was that Cyrus Beatty, the Indian inspector? Mr. Wright. Yes, sir. Q. Well, go ahead with your statement; I just wanted to fix the identity of the inspector who made that appraisement for my own satisfaction. — A. After that report was made to the Department different questions were raised as to whether or not Indians reported by Inspector Beatty were actually upon the rolls of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and in a number of cases they were referred to me to ascertain on the records of the Dawes Commission as to whether or not they were recognized citizens of the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations, because if they were not citizens and recognized as such on the rolls of the nations, they were in that case not entitled to re- ceive any payment for the improvements they had there. You will understand that a great many of the Indians located upon these lands in the first instance and then they leased these lands to persons who were not citizens, and these noncitizens were there as the tenants of the Indians who located or claimed the land by location. You will understand that under these circumstances in a good many in- stances it required a good deal of investigation to ascertain whether any of the improvements belonged to the citizen Indian or to the noncitizen. 710 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By the Chairman : Q. Well, assuming that they belonged to the noncitizen, under the terms of the agreement would they be paid for? — A. No, sir. Q. They would be paid for only in the case of their belonging to the Indian? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was a bona fide citizen of the nation in which they were located? — ^A. Yes, sir; they had to actually belong to a citizen. Q. Now, how long a time would it take to go to the roll and ascer- tain about that ? What I am trying to get at is this : I. was informed yesterday that these appraisements were made upward of two years ago, and that the people were summarily ejected form this tract; that they were forced to leave this tract of land summarily and go elsewhere and find homes for themselves; that all they had in the world, in many cases, were these improvements, and that they had not been paid tor them, and consequently were without the means, in many cases, to make improvements in the new locations they had selected or given them; that two years has elapsed and the Govern- ment has not paid them for their improvements as was agreed and understood, although this fund is under the control of the Depart- ment that can make payment at any time it sees fit. Now, what I desire to get at is, what is the cause of what appears to me to be an unreasonable and unjustifiable delay in paying for these improve- ments, if the condition exists which I have narrated as it was narrated to me yesterday ? If these facts be true, what is the cause of the delay or the explanation of this delay? — A. I will answer that. The De- partment considered last year that when these people were paid for their improvements they would have to go elsewhere, and that the Department would be the custodian of these improvements until the land and improvements were disposed of. Q. Well, don't they go elsewhere before the improvements are dis- posed of — I mean before the improvements are paid for? — A. They have taken their allotments elsewhere, but they have been permitted to remain just where they were upon this land, or as tenants upon it, until the time that the question of these improvements was finally disposed of. It was considered by the Department — well, I made a report last year to the Department suggesting the impracticability of the officers here taking charge of these improvements and preserv- ing them after they were paid for. I suggested that it would be impracticable for any officers down here to preserve them and keep them from being carried away, and that they certainly would be destroyed and carried away if they were paid for and the parties then occupying them moved away, and that the only way to prevent that would be to employ a sufficient force to guard them. I took that posi- tion for the reason that when the Government pays for these improve- ments out of the funds of the nations, the Government then becomes the custodian of these improvements for the nation, and that it would be the duty of the Government to protect and preserve them for the nation until such time as they would be finally disposed of by the Government. I called special attention to the fact that if they were paid for and the people who had possession of them should abandon them, as they would be required to do, and the improvements then were left in the care and custody of the Government, that it would be a physical impossibility for the officers then in the Territory to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 711 preserve them, or to see that these improvements were properly guarded. Senator Teller. Do you mean to say that these j)eople are still on the ground and have not been removed ? The Chairman. Senator Teller wants to know if these people are still occupying that ground and have not been removed ? — A. No, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. They have not been removed ?— A. No, sir. Q. None of them ? — A. No, sir ; none of them, excepting some who are noncitizens and had no right there at all — they have been re- moved — here we can find them ; but we have not removed any people from these lands, or attempted to do so, where they were there under any lease from a citizen, or were citizens — those have not been molested and are there yet; but the ones that are noncitizens and are there under no cOlor of right, who have neither a lease nor anything else from a citizen, have been removed. I want to state that I mean by this that anyone there who is a citizen or under a lease from a citi- zen, an Indian, who has the right to lease or rent it, has not been molested, and the Indians haven't been molested in any case. Q. Senator Teller wants to know what you mean? He wants to know if they are there without a lease. — A. I mean that are there under no lease from an Indian who had no right to be there. That is to say, if any person without any authority should go upon these lands to-day the same as jf they would go upon the public lands of the nation. Q. Well, do you mean by a lease — a written lease, or what ? — A. No, sir; I mean anyone who went on the lands by permission of these Indians who were located there. A great many of them have the right to lease the land for five years without consideration ; and the people who are on these lands are supposed to be there under some sort of a lease or arrangement from an Indian who has the right to lease it, or has the improvements there. Those are not molested. Q. And have not been ? — A. No, sir. Q. And these people will be there then under some right or permit, either written or unwritten? — A. Yes, sir; those that have not been disturbed. By Senator Clark of Montana : Q. What do you mean by improvements? — A. Their houses and springs, etc. Q. Do you mean that they are on the coal lands ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. These improvements are on the coal lands? — A. Yes, sir; they have their homes, houses, and outbuildings, if they have any, and fences and things like that on the surface. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Do you mean to say that the only people who have been re- moved are the squatters or trespassers? — A. Yes, sir. There are some people here on these lands that were here for the purpose of working in the mines for the miners, and these people built their houses on the land and they have little patches under cultivation; and the principal chief of the nation, although they had no right in these lands, advised me in a written communication that he had no objection to these people remaining there; but I will say this, that 712 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. it has been extremely difficult, in fact I'll say it has been impracti- cable, for the representatives of the Government to keep these people off this land. They will persist in going onto the land. It has been impossible to keep them off. We have continual complaints of timber cutting. We have tried to control it and find we can't. The force at our disposal is entirely inadequate to do so. Mr. MoMuBRAY. I would like to ask one question, or make a state- ment, if I am permitted. The Chairman. Proceed. Mr. McMuRRAT. I want to state that when the treaty was made by which it was agreed that these Indians should be removed from these segregated coal lands, the principal chief of the Choctaw Nation and the man who is now the principal chief — Governor McCurtain — said to the Secretary of the Interior that they would never agree that these improvements should be taken, unless it was specified and un- derstood and exjolicitly agreed to that these improvements should be paid for immediately, and the Secretary, Mr. Hitchcock, assured him that it would be done. Mr. Hitchcock assured him then and there that if it was agreed to — that is if the vacation of tliis land was agreed to — that the money should be paid out at once; Governor McCurtain explaining to him that these people living on these farms and having their improvements there, practically had nothing else; that all they had in the world was locked up there, and that they would be greatly oppressed if these payments were not made im- mediately, for they could not afford to Vait for them, and that they ought to have the money with which to go out and buy new improvements or make them where they would locate, and for that reason they should have their money at once, and Mr. Hitch- cock again assured him that they would have it — that it would be paid immediately. Now it has been more than three years since the treaty was made — yes, it has been more than four years since that treaty was made — and no money has been paid yet. That treaty was made in 1902, and this is the end of 1906, so it has been more than four years. Here are these people, some of them moved and some of them made every arrangement for moving, and there they are hung up and don't know what to do. They can't make any further improvements where they are — they can't do anything. Gentlemen, it is nothing more nor less than an outrageous breach of faith — a breach both of the letter and the spirit of that agreement Mr. Wright. Of course, you will understand that I am not famil- iar with anything of that kind. Any agreement of that kind which may have been made I know nothing about. I am telling you what I know. I am simply endeavoring to explain the situation as I under- stand it. Mr. McMuRRAY. I don't desire to be understood as imputing any blame on Mr. Wright for this condition. Not at all; the blame lodges higher up. Mr. Wright. I suggested in a communication to the Department last year the advisability of the Secretary recommending to Congress, or of calling the attention of Congress, to the fact that these lands could not be leased since the date of the agreement, and if they were to be left there in their present condition and not disposed of, I sug- gested the advisability of leasing them for agricultural purposes, and that the improvements be disposed of, and people be on there with FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 713 some authority for their being there. Now I have no knowledge of any conference that the Secretary may have had with reference to immediate payment. By Senator Long : Q. Has Congress made an appropriation for the payment of the amount of the appraisment of these improvements ? — A. No, sir ; the appropriation was provided for in the agreement. Q. How was it to be provided for? — A. Out of the tribal funds. Q. That was provided for in the agreement ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So the Secretary is armed with all the necessary authority to pay for these improvements and settle up the whole matter? — A. Yes, sir. In reply to my suggestion of last year that the surface of these lands might be leased, the Department did not think it advis- able to do anything with reference to leasing them until Congress had decided what it was best to do with reference to their final dis- position, or disposition in some manner. Mr. McMuERAY. The Governor, here, tells me that he has written the Department several letters in reference to this matter and he has had no reply. The Chairman. Mr. Wright says that he is ignorant of any agree- ment of the kind you stated that might have been made. He says if such an agreement was made that he knows absolutely nothing about it, and it might be well to let that matter rest or stand over until a later time, and then Governor McCurtain and yourself may present it. Mr. McMtJEEAY. Thank you. That is satisfactory. I suppose you are keeping a record of everything that is done here, and I thought I would like the record to show that the matter was presented to you. The Chairman. Well, ^ far as it has been presented it is in the record. With the understanding that later on you may present it, we will pass it for the time being. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Mr. Wright, are there a great number of improvements that have been taken in this way on this coal land segregation? — A. Well, now. Senator, I really could not tell you just what there is, for I never saw that report that Inspector Beatty made. They are all numbered and defined on there, but I could not say how many of them there is. Now, there has been no coal leases made since the sup- plemental agreement of 1902, which, by its terms, provided that no more should be made. Q. How many were there then in existence ? — A. At that time there were 109 coal leases, the maximum area of any one single lease being 960 acres; that being the largest acreage, and some being for a smaller acreage. The aggregate acreage- embraced in these leases amounts to 100 and 1,400 acres. Q. How much was segregated? — A. I was just coming to that; there was 445,000 acres segregated. Of these leases there are in existence, from a report made to me, or rather from data furnished me by the United States mine inspector, who has charge of the phys- ical operations of the mines, and who frequently visits them — ^he reports that 78 of these leases are being operated, or had been oper- ated, and that 31 of these leases have not yet been operated. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 46 714 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By Senator Beandegee : Q. How many leases did you say there were altogether? — A. 109; that was the number at the time of the supplemental agreement, and none have been made since. Q. I would like to know this for my own information ; is an appli- cant for a lease allowed to prospect to any extent before he makes a lease? — ^A. Yes, sir; he was allowed to prospect, but-'not on the understanding that such prospecting would give him any right to a lease. Q. There was no binding obligation that such prospecting implied the granting of a lease ? — A. No, sir. Q. How far could such prospecting go, to what extent? — A. Well— . prior to the time they got the lease, do you mean ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. At the time they made the application for a lease they had the right to apply for any particular land within that 445,000 acres, and they would ascertain by their own means or in any way they desired, what particular tracts they desired to lease, and they would furnish a description of it, with the estimated amount of coal that underlaid it. They would do all their own exploring in their own way and to the extent that they thought necessary. They went ahead and satisfied themselves by their own investiga- tions that they wanted that tract of land from the investigations that they had made. By the Chairman : Q. What would be the acreage of the old circular tract that a per- son could claim by right of discovery, whose radius was one mile from the point of discovery? — A. Well, «, good many of these old national contracts were Q. Well, that is all right, but what I want to know is the area of a circle whose radius is one mile ? — A. What is the area of it ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, it is a mile of course. Q. What is the area of it in acres ? — A. You will have to ask someone else. I can't say. I haven't figured that out. Q. You could figure it out? — A. I think so. That wouldn't be very hard. Q. Well, proceed. — A. Now the act of Congress which was ap- proved April 21, 1904, provided that the unleased land should be sold under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior within one year — I should say within three years from September 25, 1902, or before September 25, 1905, after due advertisement under regula- tions prescribed by the President; but it was further provided that the lands coA^ered bj^ the leases should not be sold until the further direction of Congress. It is my understanding that bids were re- quired to be made for this unleased land to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at Washington, and that these bids were to be made direct; and that bids were made and received at different times for these lands, but that in view of the inadequate price offered, no bids were accepted. Maps attached to recent reports of the Depart- ment show the area of the segregated coal lands in the Choctaw Nation, and the portions or areas of this land which are under exist- ing leases are noted on them. Q. On these maps? — A. Yes, sir; the areas under lease are noted and designated on them. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 715 By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. Where was that sale held? — -A. There was no sale, strictly speaking — that is, in the sense that sale is ordinarily understood, but bids were advertised for and were received and opened in Wash- ington in the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Q. These were sealed bids submitted by the would-be purchasers ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recollect what prices were offered for these- lands? — A. No, sir; I do not know. It was out of my province, and while I have heard it was not in an authoritative way. If you desire to know what I heard about it I will state that it was something around $20 an acre. Q. That is what you heard was offered for them ? — A. Yes, sir. Mr. Shepherd. I think the secretary has a report on that question, and while I won't be positive, I think it was seven dollars and some cents an acre. Mr. Wright. That was the average? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; that was the average. The Chairman. That was not the maximum ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir ; that was the average price bid. The Chairman. Well, the bids were rejected, were they not? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir ; Mr. McMurray and the attorneys for the nation were present at the opening of these bids. The Chairman. That was for the lands, or parts of the land that these bids were made on? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I don't understand that bids were made for all of the lands. Mr. Shepherd. No, sir ; it was for different districts, and the Sec- retary tabulated the bids and figured that that would be a fair aver- age for the whole of the land. Mr. Wright. Most of the coal lands which have been segregated, and which segregation was made under the direction of the Geological Survey, lie in the Choctaw Nation, as shown by the map referred to. There is a limited area, however, in the Chickasaw Nation, to which I would call the committee's attention. It is in the vicinity of Ardmore, which segregation at that point embraces about 1,560 acres, as made by the Geological Survey, lying all in one body. Nine hun- dred and sixty acres of that tract is under lease the same as the leases in the Choctaw Nation. By the Chairman : Q. Now, Mr. Wright, one question there, if you please. Do you know how long the Geological Survey was engaged in making this segregation, and determining the area of the coal land? — A. It is my understanding — although I have no official information on that point or subject — it is my information that they were about six months engaged on it. Does the committee desire that I' should fur- nish them with any information I have in connection with this matter? Q. No, sir; your understanding of it is sufficient. It is just a gen- eral inquiry. The Geological _ Survey were engaged on this work about six months, you believe? — ^A. That is my information. Of 716 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. course, as I said, I have no official information on the subject, so I might say it is merely hearsay. Q. Well, now, how definite and how much in detail was their ex- amination or exploration in determining the character of these 445,000 acres? — A. I have been unable to ascertain that. The committee may be aware of the fact that that segregation was ordered by Con- gress under this agreement, and there was no appropriation made with which to make that segregation. It is my understanding that the Department asked the Geological Survey to have that done or ascertained — that is, to ascertain the area of those lands — ^but they had no appropriation to perform that duty ; therefore the Avork was done from the appropriation of the Dawes Commission. In other words the officers of the Geological Survey reported to Mr. Bixby of the Dawes Commission and worked under his directions; but that he had no information of the details of their work further than they reported to him at Muskogee; and then he furnished them such assistance as they desired, and they proceeded with their work, and made a report to Mr. Bixby ultimately and he forwarded it to the Department. Q. Do you know whether they made any practical tests, such as drilling or sinking shafts? — A. I was directed by the Department to ascertain to what extent they had made explorations, and my report is embodied in the correspondence which I have furnished to you. I find as near as I can ascertain that they had made no explorations. Q. Now, one other question : Is it not a fact, Mr. Wright, that that report of the Geological Survey in segregating this 445,000 acres of land has virtually been — well, I would not say repudiated — but is it not a fact that it has been considered of doubtful value ? — A. How ? Q. Has not the report been considered of doubtful value by the De- partment — that report of the Geological Survey segregating this 445,000 acres of land ? — A. Yes, sir ; and for that reason the Secretary has directed me to procure more information on the subject, which is all embodied in the report you have. By Senator Beandegee : Q. What was the date of that geological report or survey to which you have referred? — A. I think it was made in 1902, but I am not positive as to that. However, my information is that it was made in 1902 some time, but the report to which I have referred will show the date. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. This is a map issued by the Geological Survey showing the loca- tion of these various coal fields, is it not? — A. No, sir; you have the report presented by me and maps made by me. I have the maps here made by the Geological Survey. Q. These maps, then, were not made by the Geological Survey? — A. No, sir. Q. This, then, is the result of your observations and examination as to the extent of the coal fields in the Indian Territory? — A. Yes, sir. The lines in red here show the extent of the segregation as fixed by the Geological Survey. I have caused to be noted on there, as neai' as it could be, the locations of the various coal leases now existing. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 717 Q. That is in blue ? — A. Yesy sir ; that is in blue and white and so on as indicated here. I was also directed by the Department to ascer- tain as near as possible whether or not the appropriation made by Congress a year ago of $50,000 for exploration of these coal lands was sufficient for that purpose. The Geological Survey reported that it would cost approximately $246,000 to ascertain by drillings the amount of coal under the lands. By the Chairman : Q. In that report, Mr. Wright, you had confidence in the Geologi- cal Survey, did you not? — A. Yes, sir. The United States mine in- spector of the Territory, under my direction and with me, endeavored to locate upon these lands where he considered it would be necessary or advisable to put down test-drill holes for the purpose of ascertain- ing the amount of coal, and this map which you have before you (Senator Clark) shows by dotted red lines the location approximately of the proposed drillings as they were noted by the United States mine inspector. The Geological Survey people, as I remember it, figured that it would take five drill outfits to properly explore these fields, and that these outfits would cost about $12,500 in the aggregate, and that the time required to make that exploration • By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Do you mean about $12,500 each ? — A. No, sir ; I mean that they figured that the cost of all of them — the aggregate cost of them — would be $12,500. Q. Well, what were you about to say with reference to the length of time ? — A. The Geological Survey figured that it would take about four years to make these drillings. It was on the basis of that report that the Department required me to ascertain whether or not that report was conservative, or, rather, to ascertain whether or not that estimate was conservative. Now, since that time — the time that the report of the mine inspector and my own were submitted — I have procured from nearly all, if not all, of the operators, through the mine inspectors, reports of the drillings which they had made themselves. You understand that the operators have drilled their own lands more or less, or explored their own lands to a greater or less extent, for they desired to know what amont of coal they had and the area and extent of it to their own satisfaction. They wanted to know what they had, and in order to ascertain this as well as might be they have all done more or less drilling, and we have procured this data since the time of making this report, and from that showing it is evident that it would undoubtedly greatly reduce the cost or expense of exploring the whole field, in view of the information we already have received, as shown by the drillings done by the operators, and from the information which I have received I have endeavored to locate upon the small maps of each of these districts furnished by the Geological Survey — as I say, I have endeavored to locate on each of these maps the location of the drilling done by each of the operators, and the depth to which they had to go to find the coal, and the amont of coal found. By the Chairman : Q. How many of these holes or wells have you the log of? — A. That is the record of the hole ? Q. Yes, sir4 the drilling record, the report that the men make who drill the holes ? — A. Well, I have probably ten or fifteen altogether. 718 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. By Senator Clakk, of Montana : Q. Is this the record of your work, this map? — ^A. No, sir; that is the report of the Geological Survey, and it is their estimate of the amount of coal in the various districts, or in certain districts, and it is showing or accompanied by a map showing the location of the leases and the coal lands which they have segregated, and I have noted on these maps the locations of the explorations which I have been able to ascertain, and the drillings. Q. They are all located on these maps? — A. Yes, sir; as well as I could locate them. I do not say that the locations are made with absolute accuracy but they are approximately correct. Q. You have noted that on each map ? — A. Yes, sir. It is on that map there which you have before you. " Q. Have you an extra copy of these maps ? — A. I have only one set of them here. Q. As I understand you, Mr. Wright, you say that there has been no drilling done of any consequence excepting by the parties inter- ested ? — A. Yes, sir. All of it has been done by these parties. None of it has been done by the Government at all. Q. And you have collated that and used it as far as you could to base your report on ? — A. Yes, sir ? Q. What is your opinion from the observation you have made and the information you have been able to obtain as to the extent of this coal field, as reported by the Geological Survey? In other words, do you think there is a greater or lesser amount of coal in the field than has been reported by them? — A. I could not make a very definite state- ment from my own observation, because I have not personally inves- tigated it on the ground, and in the preparation of my report I have been guided largely by the reports and statements that the United States mine inspector has made to me, and also these reports from the mining companies. By the Chairman : Q. Is that Mr. Cameron? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The United States mine inspector? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Go ahead. — A. There are some lands underlaid with coal that are not included in the segregation — that is, some lands that are not segregated that are underlaid with coal. The agreement recited that that should not be segregated ground, or rather that there should not be segregated more than 500,000 acres, and the Geological Survey segregated 445,000 acres; but recently there has been coal discov- ered outside of the segregated land in the Choctaw Nation. By Senator Clakk, of Montana: Q. Well, will you tell us what you know about that coal land out- side of the segregation and the extent of it ? — A. Yes, sir; I will do so. I have reports from the coal trustees, and also from the United States mine inspector, as the result of their investigations as to the area of the lands outside of the — of the coal lands outside of these segregated lands upon which or under which there is coal. That is the only information I have. Q. Have you made a report? — A. How? Q. Have you a written report on that matter? — A. Yes, sir; and I will furnish these written reports to the committee. I thought that I had them with me, but I fuid I have not. S'iVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 719 Q. Well, can you state generally whether it is a small or a large tract of land that you have found or that has been reported to you to be underlaid with coal outside of the land that is segregated ? — A. My recollection is that it covers some five or six hundred acres. Senator Long. 500 or 600 acres ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clakk, of Montana: Q. That would be a small amount? — ^A. Yes, sir; a small amount relatively as compared to the total segregation. Q. Now what is your opinion with reference to the land that is already segregated, the 445,000 acres; what is your opinion with refer- ence to its bemg underlaid with coal as disclosed through your inves- tigations, or is there a portion of it that is not underlaid with coal ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You mean that there is a part of it that is not coal land? — A. Yes, sir. Q. A part of it is not underlaid with coal? — A. Yes, sir; my inves- tigations and information show that a part of it is not coal land. Q. Well, how much of it is not underlaid with coal ? — A. The mine inspector who has made this examination and investigation at my request reports to me that the lands under lease, which consist of 101,000 acres, that the acreage which may be considered barren of coal or with coal too deep to mme at a profit and therefore considered unworkable, approximates 34,876 acres. Q. Well, now, have you a separate estimate as to the amount that is considered barren of coal, or coal too deep to be mined, and there- fore imworkable, as you have stated — what I want to get at is, what part of that tract is entirely barren according to your estimate ? You say that there is 101,000 acres of this segregated land under lease and that out of that there is 34,876 acres that either has no coal on it or if there is coal on any of it it is too deep down to be worked to advantage? Now, according to your estimate, what part of that 34,876 acres is entirely barren of coal? — A. That is, without any coal? Q. Yes, sir. Of that 34,876 acres is entirely barren of coal? — A. Well, all that acreage there. Q. I understood you to say that of that land part of it had no coal on it, or under it, and what coal there was under it was too deep to be worked to advantage? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, what part of that was entirely barren of coal? — A. I can't say. No one knows whether it is or not. It may be there for aught we know. If it is, it is too deep to be worked. Q. Then if I understand, the mine inspector does not know whether there is coal there or not? — A. No, sir. So far as he knows it is bar- ren of coal. If it is there it is too deep to be worked to any advantage. Q. Well, he would assume then that it is practically destitute of coal, because it has not been demonstrated that coal is there? — ^A. Well, I could not say as to that. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. The mine examiner is here ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And he is going to testify himself? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you a geologist? — A. No, sir. _Q. Are you a miner? — A. No, sir. I don't know anything about this of my own knowledge. I prefaced my statement with the state- ment that all my knowledge about this was obtained from others. I 720 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. am just giving you tlie information that I received from others in that respect. I thiak I stated that awhile ago. Q. Yes, I believe you did. Senator Long. Mr. Wright, I wish you would state briefly the dif- ference between your estimate of the extent and value of the coal deposit in these two nations, as compared with the estimate of the Geological Survey as contained in these two reports. — A. Well, now, Mr. Senator, the only estimate that I have upon the subject is based — the only iaformation, I should say, that I nave upon the subject of the area is based upon the reports submitted to me by the United States mine nspector, and upon whom I have relied entirely as the basis of the reports that I have submitted. The Chairman. And these are official reports ? — ^A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. I did not know but what you remembered and could tell the difference as shown by these reports ? — A. My recollection is that the mine inspector considered that about 200,000 acres out of the 400,000 acres contained workable coal, and that the balance of it was either barren of coal or with coal too deep to be worked; and if that was dis- posed of under lease at the rate of 8 cents a ton he estimated that that 200,000 acres would average, on the whole, as contaiaiag a 4-foot vein of coal. I want to explain that in some places there was two veins of coal, and in other places there was but one. But taking it all over, he averaged it, or considered that that whole 200,000 acres could be considered as containing a 4-foot vein of coal. That is the estimate of the United States mine inspector, which was the basis of my report and my guide in making it. By the Chairman : Q. Mr. Wright, I want to ask you in regard to your views as to the proper policy to pursue in regard to the agricultural surface of this land in this coal segregation? Now, what would be your idea as to the proper policy to pursue so as to bring the greatest good and bene- fit to the owners of it? — A. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say, preliminary to answering that question, that I understand that the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations are opposed absolutely to the sale of the surface outside of the coal; therefore anything I could say is out of the question if they have their desire. Q. Well, I am asking you for your opinion, Mr. Wright, regardless of what their desire may be. I would like to have your own opinion on the question. — A. Well, that is what I was coming at. Accord- ing to the best opinion obtainable, information that I have been able to get from the coal trustees and the mine inspectors who are travel- ing over these lands continuously, I would say that there might be about 25 per cent of these lands that could be classed as agricultural lands and the balance of them are rough. Now, if the nations were willing that Congress should see fit, I can see no objection to dis- posing of the surface of this segregation, or the agricultural lands therein, in such manner as Congress may deem best and disposing of the coal separately. There is one matter, however, that it seems to me should be considered in that connection; the committee is fully aware of the fact that people who are located on these lands and others in the vicinity of these lands are very desirous that the surface of FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 721 these lands be disposed of, and they desire that they be disposed of to actual settlers only. Q. Well, there is nobody located on these lands now, as I under- stand it, excepting in these various towns on the land? — A. These various towns and these tenants of the Indians that I referred to a while ago. By Senator Long: Q. Have not part of them been removed? — A. No, sir; they have not been removed as yet. Q. None of them? — A. No, sir; none of them. Now, it seems to me that if the surface of these lands were to be disposed of, and if any- one is to have preference rights in purchasing them, that the Indians who have these improvements on them and who have tenants there should be given the preference right if they so desire it. Q. You mean they should have the preference in the purchase of it? — ^A. Yes, sir; if they elected or desired to do so, they should have the preference right to buy where they have located or made the improvements. Now, I think that would be only right; and if the Indians should not desire to purchase it, then I think the tenants after the Indians should have the next right. In other words, I mean if the Indians should not want to purchase then their tenants should be permitted to step into their place and have the same right of pur- chase; but I don't believe in any case the tenant should be given the preference right over the Indian. I say that because nobody is sup- posed to be on this land at the present time. It is supposed to be vacated by all except those that are there by proper authority, and the tenants that are there are there only by permission of the Indians as their tenants. Senator Bkandegee. On what theory should the man who is renting the land have a preference right if it is sold to buy it? Why should the man renting land be given a preference in the pur- chase of it? Why should it not be put on the market and sold at the highest price it will bring? — A. I don't know any reason that they should be given any preference excepting that they are there on the land and have been there; but that preference, of course, does not mean that the land should be sold to them at any reduced price. Senator Long. Provision has already been made for paying for his improvements? — ^A. Yes, sir; and if he was paid for his improve- ments, of course he should not have any rights over anybody else; but if he retained his improvements, then I think in every case he ought to be given that preference. By the Chairman : Q. Then I understand you to say that your idea is that the mineral rights should be disposed of separately ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And the surface rights separately? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, what is your judgment as to the valuation or value of this 25 per cent that is susceptible of use for agricultural purposes ? — A. I could not say. Q. You don't Imow? — A. No, sir. Q. You have no views upon that subject? — A. No, sir; I have not examined the matter at all. I have not had occasion to examine into that matter, and I haven't given it any thought at all. 722 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. That being the case you have no opinion to express on that sub- ject? — ^A. No, sir. By Senator Long : Q. Have you any plan thought out or any scheme which appeals to you as being the best method for selling the surface rights to these segregated lands or the coal that is in them ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is it? — A. If the surface lands are to be disposed of it would be done in a way approved and ordered by Congress, and I believe as I have stated that as far as the surface rights are concerned that they should be disposed of in every instance, if possible, to the people living on the lands now — the owner of the improvements if he is not living on the land and if a tenant is on it, or a person in charge by* authority of the Indian, then' the land should be sold to him in case the Indian don't want to exercise his preference; and I would advise that they be sold by sealed bids — that the lands be all appraised, and the appraised value put on them, and not be sold below that appraised valuation. Q. Would you fix a limit in each individual sale as to the amount of land sold to each person? — A. Yes, sir. I think that should be con- sidered too. I think there should be a restriction on the amount sold to one person. Q. Well, have you any suggestion to offer along that line, as to what that limit should be ? — A. Yes, sir ; I should say that it ought not to exceed 160 acres, and in less proportions in certain localities. I don't know but that it might be best to make it not to exceed 80 acres in some localities, but generally I would say that it ought not to exceed 160 acres. Q. Your idea would be to sell enough for one man and not enough for large bodies of it to be combined ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now have you any suggestion to make as to the best method and manner of disposing of the coal land? That is disposing of the coal on it? — A. Well, I don't know about that. That is a very broad question for me to answer. Q. Why? — A. Well, the value of these coal lands has been esti- mated all the way from $10,000,000 or $15,000,000 to $2,000,000,000. Q. One moment; you are mistaken in that. It was $4,000,000,- 000. Now, so far as your knowledge goes of these coal lands, based on what you know and the information that has come to you, would you think that the entire segregation of 445,000 acres was worth or of the value of $10,000 an acre taking it all around? Now that may seem to be a queer question, Mr. Wright, but that statement was made, and apparently made in good faith before the Senate of the United States ? — A. No, sir. Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, it is considered that a coal vein a foot thick per acre will mine out 1,000 tons of coal, or not quite that much — the rule is that coal mines that have a 4-foot vein of coal will mine out about 3,500 tons to the acre. Now I am not any authority whatever on that question, and don't know anything about it excepting as the information comes to me from various sources, but that is the way I understand it from the best information I have. If it would average we will say for the sake of illustration, 4,000 tons to the acre on the basis of royalty at the rate of 8 cents per ton mine mn, which is the basis on which royalty is paid under the present leases, it would yield by way of royalty only $320 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 723 per acre, that is assuming that the production would be 4,000 tons per acre. Q. $320 an acre? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the vahie of the royalty ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On the basis of 8 cents per ton? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well I was not speaking about that, although it is instructive. The question I asked you was the value per acre of this coal land ? — A. I was just about to remark — the mine inspector has all the obtain- able information we have been able to get up to this time, and his information shows that there is just about 200,000 acres of that land — about 200,000 acres out of the total 445,000 acres segregated that had coal on it in a way that it could be worked to any advantage — as I stated the balance of the segregation consisting of about 245,000 acres either being barren of coal, or the coal lying too deep to be worked. The mine inspector estimated that the coal in this 200,000 acres would average about 4 feet thick, and taking that estimate on the basis that it could and would be worked out under leases on an eight cent royalty basis it would bring ultimately an aggregate of about 100,000,000 of dollars, provided that amount of coal was there. Q. That is, the total product of the coal brought to the surface and sold would bring in gross, $100,000,000? — A. If it was sold under the lease proposition and the operators paid 8 cents per ton. Q. Well what I want to get at is the value of the coal mined, and if i: was sold, what might reasonably be expected to be gotten for it in the market? Now that is what I am trying to get at? — A. I don't believe if that coal land was all put on the market and sold all at one time in bulk, that it would yield anything like it would if it was put on a royalty basis. I believe it would bring more worked on the royalty basis than if it was put on the market and sold and the money derived from it at a sale put out at interest. Q. Well you don't get my idea yet, for that is not what I want. — A. Well it seems I don't Q. Now that segregated land is worth so much in some localities ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It is worth so much to somebody that wants it, it is worth so much now? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now taking the value of the coal land as it is now, not the surface of it, but for the coal there is in it, supposing there is some- one that wants it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well under those circumstances, supposing there is someone that is ready to come in and buy these coal lands, how much is it worth? — A. It is worth just what that person thinks it is worth. Q. Well suppose it is for sale, how much is it reasonably worth in the market? — A. How much is that coal land reasonably worth in the market? Q. Yes, sir ? — A. Well I could not say, Mr. Chairman, because no- body has ever submitted a proposition for it as a body.- Q. I am not speaking about Duying that land as a body, I am just speaking of the sale of it in tracts — say, tracts of 160 acres or 920 acres. Can you say as to that? Do you understand? What we are trying to get at is something as to the value of these lands. Now they are admitted by parties who have studied this question, or say they have, to be worth $10,000 an acre for the whole 445,000 acres, and they have been estimated by parties who put bids in to 724 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. the Secretary of the Interior for them to be worth $7 an acre. Now, there being that wide a range in the value of the land in the opinion of different people, what I want to get at is some definite understand- ing as to the value of these coal lands, which runs all the way in the judgment of different people from $7 to $10,000 an acre? Senator Teller. I don't think he could tell you. The Chairman. I don't suppose he could, but we would like to get his idea about it. — A. Well, I haven't any idea as to their value. Q. You have no idea as to the value of the coal lands or as to the value of the surface? — A. No, sir. By Senator Long: Q. Let me ask you this question: In this document which is your« report to the Secretary, there is a letter from the Director of the Geo- logical Survey under date of April 4, 1906, in which he estimates that approximately there are 2,954,138,000 of tons of coal?— A. Yes, sir. Q. In these lands? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that at $2 a ton he estimates would make their value at $5,918,276,000? Now what have you to say in regard to that esti- mate as to the amount of coal being in these mines or lands? — A. I have not been able to ascertain that the geological people made any sufficient examination to base any estimate on. Q. Do you consider that to be a mere guess on the part of the Director of the Geological Survey? — A. Last winter after that report had been made to the Department the Secretary asked me what my information was as to the extent or continuance of the coal veins in this coal field By the Chairman : Q. Pardon me, that was some two or three or four years after the report was made? — A. Yes, sir. Q. After their attention had been called to the fact on the floor of the Senate, and the statement was made that this land was worth somethmg like $4,000,000,000?— A. Yes, sir; and I informed him that my understanding was that on the average, there was a 4-foot vein of coal, or veins that would average that in thickness ; and there was places where there was two or three veins that would average about that, and in one place or two places there was a 5 or 6-foot vein of coal, but that was only in certain localities and in certain places and did not prevail to any large extent; but I reported that it was my understanding that the average thickness of the coal was about four feet in thickness; and I informed him that Mr. Cameron, the mine inspector, could give more definite information than I could, for he had been mining superintendent and had observed mining opera- tions down here in the territory for twenty-five years. That is what I told Mr. Taff, and Mr. Taff was then requested by the Secretary to appear in his office and he was there and in my presence discussed this matter; and it appeared theoretically to Mr. Taff, from informa- tion which he had obtained from sources with which I am not famil- iar, that he calculated there was in places several veins of coal; and when he made the statement that there was 9 feet of coal, he stated to the Secretary that he meant to say that if these different veins of coal were added together they would make 9 feet of coal. Q. Whether they were 2 feet or 3 feet or only 18 inches thick each? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 725 By Senator Long : Q. Mr. Walcott in this same letter says, "the reasonable average thickness of the veins of coal in the segregated coal lands may be placed at 7 feet." — ^A. Yes, sir; and he bases that on the thickness of separate veins; but as near as I can ascertain they made no prac- tical observations of the lands from which they could accurately arrive at these conclusions. I will say further that I was directed to ascertain what explorations they had made, and I ascertained from the records of the Dawes Commission who paid all their field expenses that the only expense they had incurred in that time was the hire of saddle horses and for their subsistence. Now that is the only record of expenses I can find in the records of the Dawes Commission who paid all their expenses. I also interviewed a man who had charge of one of their camp wagons where they camped out, and he informed me that they did not carry with them any tools of any kind, such as picks and shovels or anything else. Q. They did not have with them even that much prospecting tools? — ^A. No, sir. Q. Well how did they investigate if not with tools? — ^A. They simply went out each morning from their camp on horseback. They traveled around the country that way and made what observations they could. They had called on Mr. Cameron, the naine inspector here, and got some information from him, of which he can inform you when he goes on the stand. It is stated by the Geological Survey that by test pits Mr. Taff and others had thoroughly tested and explored the outcroppings, but I can't fiad that they had any tools with them to make such explora- tions, and I have not been able to find anything that would indicate that they made any such practical explorations or tests as that. If they made them I can get no trace of them nor find where made. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. That is, the investigations made by the Geological Survey at the time this segregation was made? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How much of a force did the Geological Survey have at work on this? How many men did they have in the field? — A. Mr. Taff was the only one sent from the Department, and when he got out here the Dawes Commission furnished him with four other men. Q. And how long were they engaged in making these investiga- tions ? — A. About six months, according to my understanding. Q. That is all. The Ch AIRMAN. Are there any further remarks you wish to make, Mr. Wright? — ^A. Well, I don't know, unless it would be about the asphalt lands. Q. How much was there of those? — ^A. The segregated asphalt lands aggregated 7,236 acres, which is included in and is a part of the aggregate of 445,000 acres. Q. That was what is called asphalt lands? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Aggregating how much? — ^A.' 7,236 acres. Q. Where is that asphalt land found, Mr. Wright? — ^A. That lies almost entirely in the Chickasaw Nation. There are 6,400 acres of that 7,000 and more acres under lease, leaving 858 acres that is not under lease; and the royalty on asphalt as fixed by the Choc- taw and Chickasaw nations has never been changed, and that was /ZO FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. 60 cents a ton on the refined asphalt and 10 cents per ton on the crude product. All of the asphalt produced in the territory has been practically crude asphalt, composed of rock and sand and dirt mixed with the asphalt, and the operations have been very limited, even under the leases. The operators claim that they can not profitably put it on the market and compete with the refined asphalt that is put on the market from other sources. For the year ending June 30, 1905, there was 10,000 tons mined, and for the year ending June 30, 1906, there was 2,650 tons mined. These lands are all in the Chicka- saw Nation, where this asphalt was mined, and they are located at different places, as is shown by the map. By Senator Clakk (Montana) : , Q. They have railroad facilities, haven't they? — ^A. No, sir. Q. Where are they located? — A. Their locations are all marked on the map I have furnished the committee. Q. Are they near any place of importance? — ^A. Well, the trouble down the^e is that there are no places of real importance, but these deposits in several instances are near towns, and at other points they are not. These asphalt segregations were also fixed by the Geological Survey at the same time that they made the segregation of the coal lands. Q. Are they found to be about as correct as the fixing of the limits and extent of the coal lands segregation has been found to be? — ^A. I don't know. I don't think that the segregation of the asphalt lands is unreasonable, for the reason that all of it practically has been under lease, and parties when they took leases, or before they took them, endeavored to ascertain the locality of the asphalt, because at that time they could take leases anywhere in the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations. Now, unless the committee desires more special information, that is all I have to say. That is about all the general information I have to give the committee. If there is any- thing more the committee desires to know that I can furnish it I will be glad to do so whenever called upon. The Chairman. That is all for the present; we may want to hear something from vou later. If we do we will let you know. Mr. Wright. 1 wish to say to the committee, that while I have looked on these maps of the Geological Survey, and have located on them the location of the actual drillings that have been done to the depth of the coal, as furnished by Mr. Cameron and furnished by the operators to him, I wish to state to the committee that I had just last night completed that work and I have not had an opportunity to check them over sufficiently to be able to state that they are absolutely correct, and as far as I am concerned I woidd like to keep it in my possession for a few days so T may check it. The Chairman. That is all right. STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM CAMERON. By the Chairman : Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Cameron? — A. South McAlester — or McAlester, as it is now. Q. What is your official position at this time? — A. United States mine inspector. Q. What is your age? — A. 62, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 727 Q. What experience have you had in the way of practical over- sight or supervision of coal-mining operations? — A. I have been engaged in mining for the last fifty-four years, and I have at one time and another done all the work practically that there is to be done about mines, as boy and man. I have worked in all the differ- ent capacities from a boy of 8 years, when I first commenced, down to the present time. Q. You began the work of mining when you were 8 years of age? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And have you been continuously engaged in that work from that time to this? — ^A. Yes, sir. I have been everything from miner to superintendent of coal-mining operations. Q. And you are now United States roine inspector for the Indian Territory? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been United States mine inspector for the Territory ? — A. A little over five years. Q. And what was your occupation prior to that time? — A. For niaeteen years prior to that time I was superintendent of the Mis- souri Pacifitt interests in the Indian Territory. Q. Then you have been acquainted with the coal mines and the coal-mining operations of the Indian Territory here for something like twenty-three or twenty-four years ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, Mr. Cameron, this committee is down here authorized by the Senate of the United States to seek and collect evidence and information from any and every source that it sees fit, and particu- larly is its mission here to seek information in regard to what are known as the segregated coal lands in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, embracmg something like four hundred and forty-five thousand acres, and the committee would like you to give them all the information which you may possess in regard to that particular tract of land, and at the same time state how you became possessed of that information. — A. Well, I will state now that I can't give you that. I can't stand here and give you that. I am ready and willing to answer any questions that may be asked me, but as far as standing here and addressing this committee is concerned, I can't do it. Q. Well, Mr. Cameron, we will question you, then. I appreciate what you mean, and the best way to get at it any way is by ques- tioning you. Now, Mr. Cameron, are you familiar with the extent of the segregation of coal lands that was made down here in the Territory by th^ Interior Department some years ago? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You Imow where that land lies ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you made any examination of that segregation?— A. Yes, sir, in this way : I have made an examination or the different mines that are in it and in operation and I have put down a few test holes here and there. In what is called the Lehigh district I have drilled and tested a good deal there and that and the investigation and ex- amination of the mines that are being operated is about the extent of my investigations. Q. That is the manner and way in which you have gained your knowledge? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, now, Mr. Cameron, in your best judgment about what portion of this 445,000 acres would be available for mining pur- poses ? — ^A. For practical mining purposes ? 728 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, I have some papers here that I would like to refer to. It is about too much for mie to remember, that is to carry in my head, and if I am permitted to refer to the papers and memorandums I have here I could tell you. Q. Very well. Refer to anything you please to refresh your mem- ory. — A. I sum up the unleased land — the acreage of the unleased land is 144,174 acres — that is, land that has workable coal, 109,159 acres is doubtful, and 83,433 acres is perfectly and totally impracti- cable to work. Q. That is of the unleased lands ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. That is the total of the unleased lands? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How about the leased lands ? — A. Well, in what way? Q. Are they all practicable and all good coal lands — that is, lands that it is practicable to operate and mine coal ? — A. Are they all good that are leased ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. No, sir. I have a table here that shows how they are. Q. Now, give us the practicable coal land for mining purposes that is leased — the workable coal land that is leased. — A. Well, there is worked 48,831 acres, estimated balance workable, 58,053 acres. Q. Now, that does not comprise all of it? What is there that is unworkable, if there is any of it unworkable on the leased land? — A. I haven't figured that out. One moment please; here it is; estimated balance unworkable, 34,876 acres. By the Chairman : Q. Well, now, this doubtful acreage in the unleased land, what would be your judgment about that? Can you express it as any thing else than doubtful, with the chances evenly balanced as to whether it is good or bad? — A. Well, that is the way I feel about it, with the chances probably against the whole of it being workable. Q. Well, is all of it unworkable in your opinion? — A. No, sir, I won't say that, for some of it is undoubtedly workable. Q. Some of it is workable? — A. Yes, sir; in my opinion it is. I don't know that any of it is, but I haven't the slightest doubt but that some of it is workable. Q. Upon what do you base this estimate — upon what investiga- tion do you base this estimate that you have made? — A. Upon or by my periodical inspections of the mines and the dip the leases run to. Q. Well, we don't understand that. Will you explain what you mean by that? — A. Yes, sir. For instance, you take the L. E. Bosquet lease. That lease is a mile and a half from the top to the lower end of the lease, and where they are at work on it now it is dipping at about 32° or 33°, and if it continues to dip at that angle it will run to about 4,500 feet at the lower end of tne lease. So I cut out about half of that lease. Q. For what reason? — A. The coal would be too deep to mine. Now that is an example of the way it goes. It would be imprac- ticable to work it at that depth. I have come to the conclusion that about 1,000, or at the most 1,500 feet, is the greatest depth they can go and mine coal to any kind of advantage. Now I said 1,500 feet, but I don't think they can go more than 1,000 feet or perhaps 1,200 feet. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 729 Q. Is that a slope mine? — A. Yes, sir. Q. After they follow the vein down in the earth until it reaches a perpendicular distance of from a thousand to 1,200 feet from the surface you consider it of no value after that ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Why? — A. Because of the depth and the great expense inci- dent to hauling the coal to the surface, and pumping water and ventilating the mine, etc. It is very difficult to operate a mine in this country at that depth and very expensive and dangerous on account of the frequent explosions that occur. In this country they get more dangerous as they get deeper. Q. Is there much gas in this field? — A. Yes, sir; there is a great deal of gas, but the gas is not the great danger in this field. Q. What is the element that constitutes the greatest source of danger down here? — A. It is the coal dust that makes the most danger in the mines here. Q. Are the mines very dangerous here? — A. Well, sir, there is the most dangerous mines here in the Indian Territory that I have ever come across in all my experience as a miner. Q. From explosions? — A. Yes, sir; dust explosions are the source of the most danger. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. Can't you prevent the dust explosions by sprinkling? — A. No, sir; but they can moderate the force of the explosions to a certain extent, but nothing that they have been able to devise yet will totally prevent them. As I say, the best they can do is to modify them to a certain extent. Q. The .extent of the explosions can be modified, but not pre- vented altogether? — A. No, sir; they have not been able to prevent them completely by anything they have tried. Q. Have they tried the sprinkling system here? — A. Yes, sir; the law compels it. Q. Have there been many accidents and fatalities here in this field by reason of these explosions? — A. Yes, sir; we had three fatal accidents here last week through dust explosions. Q. Have there been any large or extensive accidents involving the loss of the lives of a good many people at one time? — ^A. Yes, sir; we had a large accident in the Osage Coal Company's mine in 1892, I think it was, where there was 67 lives lost. Q. That was when? — A. In 1892, I think. We are having these explosions all the time. Of course the preventative measures that are adopted minimize their effect, but we can't prevent them alto- gether, and as I say down here in this Territory in the last week there was three of these explosions that were attended with fatal results. * Q. That explosion by which or in which the 67 lives were lost, was that a gas or dust explosion? — A. That was a pure dust explosion, and the deeper the mines go here in the Indian Territory the more dangers there is from dust explosions, for the deeper the mines go the dryer they become. Another difficulty in deep mining here is the heat, for when you get down 1,500 or 1,800 feet the heat becomes very great, and it is very difficult to ventilate them. The heat gets so great at these depths that it is almost impossible to stand it. Q. What would be the degrfee of heat?— A. Well, at 2,000 feet the heat of the mines will be 90°; that will be just the natural heat of the mines — will go up to 90°, and that is hot for a man to work in, Some S. Kep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 47 730 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. authorities talk or speak about mining coal at a depth of 3,000 feet, but I very much doubt if 3,000 feet has ever been reached without an extraordinary expense. It has never been reached to my knowledge anyway. By Senator Branbegee : Q. Is the thickness of these veins uniform? — A. No, sir; the thick- ness varies in different districts. Q. Is the slope or angle at which the coal veins lie in the groimd the same everywhere? — A. No, sir; that varies, too, in different dis- tricts. It varies from 2|° to 3° all the way up to 55° or 60°. Q. Well, are the majority of these mines already being worked; is the vein of coal in them of an easy pitch or steep pitch? — A. Well, , they are all kinds. They are workmg them from 2° or 3° up. I believe there was one mine they worked here that the vein pitched fully 65° or 60° but as they got down on it it flattened out to about 45°, or perhaps it was 40°. My calculations are all based on these figures, for it don't take much figuring to show that when the coal dips at that angle it is not going to be very long before it will get so deep that it will be unworkable. Q. Does this coal in this district exhibit a comparatively uniform analysis as to its constituents? — A. No, sir. Do you mean if the coal is of a uniform quality ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. No, sir; it don't. There is many places where the coal is badly mixed with impurities. Now, you take — take the Southwest Development Company at Lehigh; they had ten leases, and after thoroughly exploring and operating these leases they volun- tarily surrendered four of them as being absolutely worthless. Q. Why were they worthless? — A. Because the coal was mixed with bone coal and impurities so that it was not worth anything. Now, there was something like 4,000 acres in these leases that they surrendered for that reason. Now, that was in this land that is segre- gated as good coal land. In this same district there is something like 700 acres of this land that is overflowed by the river and it will always be dangerous to work it, so much so — well, to show you what I mean the river got up last year so high that it flooded it, and it cost them at least from $75,000 to $100,000 to open these mines again. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. That is embraced in this estimate of yours of unworkable ground? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Is this district a basin or is there only one exposure of the out- crop ? — ^A. Well it forms basins in some places and in others there is only one outcrop or exposure. Q. How many formations of coal is there in this district? — ^A. Well, there is two formations. There is two principal formations — what we call the sea-coal formation — that has been worked on the segregated land. Now I will say further, that I believe the mines that have been worked in that formation have been losing concerns since the day that they were started. I don't believe that they have ever paid. Q. How thick is that vein of coal ? — ^A. Well that is hard to say. Well, it averages about 2 feet 6 inches or maybe 2 feet 7 inches. It varies in thickness; it runs down as low as 6 or 8 inches, and in places it is 3 feet 3 inches. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 731 Q. There is no uniformity about it ? — A. Well yes, on the whole, there is a tolerable degree of uniformity, but in places it will vary that much. By the Chairman : Q. In your judgment what thickness would a vein of coal have to be in this district in order to make the working of a vein of coal profit- able ? — A. Well, I think that a vein 3 feet tmck would be as thin as you could work them to advantage, considering the angle and the depth at which they would have to be. worked on the average. Of course as you go down deeper it costs more to work it than nearer the surface. That though is as think as it can be worked to advantage. Q. There is a good many veins though that are worked thinner than that, is there not? — A. Yes, sir. You take it up ia the Kansas coal district, in some places they work coal that is less than 2 feet thick. Well say about 2 feet thick; in some places, they might be a little less than that, but that is about as thin as they can be worked to advan- tage anywhere. Then they have to have a market right at the shaft for it or within a small distance. They can't afford to mine coal in a vein that thin and ship it any great distance. That will be in a dis- trict where the coal hes as flat as this table and they have a splendid roof. Now, it is diBFerent here from what it is in Kansas and in the Eastern States. In the Eastern States they haven't any gas to amount to anything to combat and no water. All these conditions gQvems the matter of working a vein of coal to advantage or at a profit. Of course no one will work a vein of coal long at a loss. If they can't make it pay they will drop it. Q. You mean that it costs much more to work a vein 2 or 3 feet thick than it does a larger vein? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. Now in regard to this upper vein, what sort of a top or bottom has it? — A. A great deal of it is bad coal; that is, coal that shps and faults out. Q. Do they have to timber it or just leave props under it? — ^A. They have to timber all the veins of coal here in the Indian Ter- ritory. Q. They have to use timber in all of them? — A. Yes, sir; all of them that I have seen, and I have seen about all of them. When I say all I mean it in a general way, that is the rule, but there may be exceptions to it, but in a general way they have to timber all the coal mines in the Indian Territory. Q. Do they work the pillar system here? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any partings in this vein of coal? — A. Yes, sir; in some places the bone comes in the bottom of the coal. Take the Wilburton district, you will find the upper half of the coal floatiag to such an extent that it is impossible to operate it to any advantage. Q. Do they wash this coal that is mined here ? — ^A. In some places they do. Q. What do they wash it for? — A. They wash the slack out. Q. Up to what size; 3 inches? — ^A. Well, less than that. The nut is 1 inch or IJ inches. " Q. And under that they wash it ? — ^A. They wash that, but above that I don't t hink they wash anything. If they wash any coke coal I don't know it. 732 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Is this a coking coal? — ^A. Yes, sir; some. Q. What portion of it is a coking coal? — ^A. Well, the Hartshorn and McAlester coal is. Q. What is the average of the ash and fixed carbon in a general way? — ^A. Well, the average is about 50 per cent iti fixed carbon, and what the ash is I could not tell you. I won't be sure as to the ash, but my impression is that it is something about 7 or 8 per cent. Now that is from memory, and I would not be certain, but as I say I think that is about it, and the fixed carbon is about 50 per cent, or perhaps a little higher. Q. And the coke, how is it ? — ^A. Well, I couldn't say as to that. Q. Now, where is the next vein, or the second veia that is work- able? How far is that below the upper vein? — A. Well, that varies. ' Q. How far is it below the upper vein on the average? — ^A. Well, that varies; well, it is probably on the average about 1,000 feet. Q. About 1,000 feet below the first vein is found the second veia? — A. Yes, sir; anywhere from 800 to 1,000 feet. Q. Well, have they sunk shafts on it ? — A. No, sir. Q. That vein is undeveloped ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They have not worked that at all ? — ^A. No, sir. I am going now from, the sea-coal vein to the upper vein. Q. That is the one I referred to? — A. Well, it might be 800 or 1,000 feet down. Q. Well, have they worked that vein ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Which is the best coal, that vein or the other one? — A. The second vein is the best vein of coal we have in the Indian j^erritory. Q. What would it run in thickness about, that is in a general way? — A. Well it varies a little in thickness. It runs from 3 feet up to about 4 feet 4 inches, I believe. Q. How about the gas and dust in that vein? — A. Well, that is a very dangerous vein of coal. Q. It is a very dangerous vein, you say? Is it more so than the other vein? — ^A. Yes, sir. j5. Is it on account of the depth, do you think? — A. No, sir; I think not. There is another vein; comes in probably a thousand feet below that. There is probably 30 or 40 feet between the third and fourth veins. It may be 40 or 50 feet intervenes between them. Q. Then they have four veins of coal here? — ^A. Yes, sir; in this McAlester district, they have. Q. Now, how far below the McAlester vein is the next one ? I want to get that straightened out. How far below what is known as the McAlester vein of coal is the next vein of coal? — A. The three and four Hartshorn veins come together. Q. They come close together? — ^A. Yes, sir; comparatively close together. Q. Are they close enough together to work? — ^A. No, sir. The upper Hartshorn vein in very mairy places is of little value. Q. What is its thickness? — A. ft is from 2 to 2^ feet thick, but it is mixed with dirt and full of faults. Q. The lower vein, then, I take it, is the more valuable ? — ^A. Yes, sir; the lower Hartshorn vein is more uniform. Q. How thick is that vein ? — ^A. It varies from 3 feet to 6 feet 6. Q. That is a good vein of coal? — ^A. Yes, sir; first class. Q. Have they worked it extensively? — ^A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 733 Q. What are the conditions in that vein so far as gas and dust are concerned ? — A. Well, as far as that goes, it is very much on the same footing as the McAlester vein is. Q. They are both dangerous ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Particularly from dust explosions ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there water in them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Which has to be pumped out ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there much water in the mines down here ? — A. Yes, sir; there is very few mines in the Indian Territory that you don't have to pump the water from them. Q. Is it expensive? — A. To pump them? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, in some places it is and some it is not so expensive. In some places there is a great volume of water that has to be pumped. You take No. 8 up at Hartshorn, there is a great deal of water that they have to pump, and they have to use a bronze pump, for the acid in the water soon ruins an ordinary pump. That is another thing that they have to contend with here — it is the acid in the water that soon ruins the pumps and the pipes. It eats them out in a httle while. Q. What kind of a haulage have they in the mines down here ? — A. Well, all kinds — electric and tail haulage; all kinds — mules and everything. Q. Is their haulage as a rule very long, or do they have shafts through which to hoist the ore to avoid mine haulage? — ^A. Well, so far as the haulage is concerned, there is no place where they have to haul it over a mile. The longest haulage i have ever known in the Indian Territory would probably be about a mile, but I don't know of any to-day that is that much. Q. Well, what would it be now; — about ? — A. Well, probably from half to three-quarters of a mile would probably be the longest haul that any of them would have now. Q. What class of labor do you have here in the Indian Territory ? — A. Well, we have all classes, creeds, and conditions. I don't know of any race that is not represented down here, and if you want to know about the character, I can tell you that some of them are very good and some are very poor and inefficient. Q. Is the coal mined by the ton? — A. Yes, sir; by the ton. Q. The miners are paid by the ton for the coal they mine? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are they paid for so much per ton of 2,000 pounds? — ^A. Yes, sir; it is so much per ton of 2,000 pounds. That is the way it is done here. Q. Is that on the basis of mine-run coal ? — A. They are all paid — well, they are all paid, excepting in one or two mines, on the basis of the screened coal. I mean that generally they are paid on the basis of mine-run coal, but in one or two mines they are paid on the basis of the screened coal that is mined. Q. When they are paid on the mine-run basis does that include the slack ? — A. That includes everything mined. Q. What is the proportion of slack that they have in their coal here ? — A. Well, it vanes. It runs from 25 to 50 per cent. Q. What do they pay the miners here for mining the coal? — A. Well, they pay them 72 cents on a 4-foot vein and on a 3 foot 4 vein they pay them 5 cents extra, but in the Sandboys district I 734 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. think it is 62 cents that they pay them there. I am not right positive, but I think that is the scale here. Q. Well, about 70 cents would probably be the average here, wouldn't it? — A. Well, somewhere about that. Q. Now, about what proportion of the cost of mining is paid to the miners? You say that would be on the average about 70 cents a ton. About what would be the additional cost of mining for timber, power and light, etc. ? I ask that, for I want to get at the total cost of mining. — A. Well, now, that is a subject that it is pretty hard for me to get at. I hardly know how to answer that. I don't believe I could tell you that. 'The operators as a rule don't care much about divulging to anybody what their cost of production is, and it would be very hard for me to find out. As it is, I don't believe I am suffi- ciently informed to be able to give you anything of value on that point. Q.. You don't know? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You haven't any data on that question that would be reliable? — A. No, sir; nothing that would be of any value, for I haven't any- thing only my guess, and I would not like to place that before you as being worth anything. Q. Well, let us have your estimate of what the cost would ,be? — A. Well, I suppose in some places they might produce coal at a cost of a dollar thirty cents a ton or a dollar thirty-five, and in other places it would probably be $2, and in other places — a few of them — where it would cost $3 or even $3i to produce it. It depends so much on the character of the vein of coal they are mining and the surroundings and conditions. It will vary a great deal, owing to conditions, etc. Now, that may seem to be a high price, but I have known one place where it cost them $3 J for every ton of coal they took out. Q. That concern did not make much money, did it? — ^A. No, sir; it lost money all the time, right from the time it started. It is still losing money. Q. They don't know enough to quit ? — A. It seems not. Q. That is the mine you spoke of awhile ago? — A. No, sir; it is another one. It belongs to the Rock Island people. Q. Well, what are the different grades of coal? They grade it, don't they? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the average selling price of the coal mined downliere? — A. Well, the average selling price of coal is made out and furnished to me once a year. For the five years previous to the one that ended in June the average selling price of coal was one dollar and seventy-seven cents for all the time. Q. Has that not risen lately? — ^A. At this season of the year? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, the average is taken from the winter's price as well as the price in the summer. ' Q. Itis the average for the year? — ^A. Yes, sir; it is the average for the year through. Q. And what did you say that price was ? — A. For the five years previous to June 30 last it was one dollar and seventy-seven cents a ton. This last year of that period it averaged a dollar eighty and something. I don't remember just what the fraction was. Q. That was the price the operators received ? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 735 Q. And was the average price during the year? — A. Yes, sir; the average selUng price. Q. The wholesale price ?— 7A. Yes, sir. Q. Do the railroads here mine their own coal? — A. They partly mine their own coal, and partly have mines of their own. Q. The railroads have leases of their own? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many leases have they? — ^A. Well, I don't Imow precisely, but the old "Choctaw" road has some twenty-five or twenty-six that are controlled by the road. There is under their direct control nine- teen leases, I believe, and they sublease in addition to these about seven more. Q. Has there been any fires in the coal mines down here in the Indian Territory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Frequently? — ^A. Yes, sir; we have them every week. Q. Serious fires? — ^A. Yes, sir; some of them very disastrous. Q. Have the operators been obliged to abandon any considerable portion of these mines by reason of fires; that is, mines where the coal IS valuable ? — A. Only temporarily. Q. The fires can be extinguished? — A. Yes, sir; we have always succeeded in doing it all right. We have to wall them up and keep them walled up until the fire is smothered. Q. Then the mines have been recovered?— A. Yes, sir; generally. I don't know of any of them that they have been unable to recover. Q. Therefore there has not been any large portion of good paying coal mining ground that has been abandoned on account of fires like has been the case in Montana and other districts? — A. No, sir; not here. Fortunately the strata both above and below it is air-tight, and when you get these conditions, where the strata is air-tight, when you wall it up it soon smothers the fire out, and you can reopen it again. By Senator Teller : Q. How deep is the deepest mine that is being worked here? — A. To the bottom of the deepest shaft it is about 660 feet. Q. And that is on an incline? — ^A. No, sir; it is a perpendicular shaft. Q. Well, is the vein on an incline there? — A. Yes, sir. . Q. And the depth of that shaft is 660 feet? — A. Yes, sir; but they have worked it on the pitch of the vein for three or four hundred feet below that. Q. Where is that mine located ? — ^A. That is a mine at Coalgate. Q. Well, these mines here — here around McAlester — how deep are they in this immediate vicinity? — A. They are all slope mines here. Everything from a thousand feet to nearly 3,000 feet is on the pitch of the coal. They have run into the ground 9n the pitch of the coal nearly three thousand feet in places. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. There has been no subsidence of the surface by reason of these workings, has there ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. To any great extent? — A. Well, in places to a considerable extent. Q. Has much of the surface of the ground been rendered unfit for cultivation by reason of these subsidences of the surface? — A. Oh, 736 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. very little. Where that has occured it is right near where the coal is near the surface. It would not be more than 30 or 40 acres in a place. Q. Do you think that the land that has been laid out here and segregated for coal, do you think that it is all underlaid with coal, or do you think that some of it is barren ?— A. In the segregation ? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, some of it is barren to begin with. Some of it never had any coal on it at all. The coal won't run with section lines. It crosses and goes into a quarter section, and it comes back and leaves the corner sticking out there with coal in it and a corner sticking out here without coal. It won't follow any particular line. At the limit of it there will be corners of it sticking out in different sections. Q. And the segregation was made by the subdivisions? — ^A. Yes, sir; and I think there is at least fifteen or twenty thousand acres of it in these points that are barren — I mean that there is no coal in them. Q. It is barren ? — ^A. Yes, sir. By Senator Brandegeb : Q. Do you know what portion of this amount of something over 100,000 acres of leased land is controlled by the railroads? — A. Well, the Choctaw, Oklahoma and Gulf Railroad Company^that is the name of the company, the original name of the company that got . the leases — that company now has thirteen leases that they are work- ing and six that they are not working. That is the number that is controlled by that railroad. By Senator Teller : Q. Is that the Rock Island road now? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And how many leases altogether are controlled by that com- pany ? — A. There is nineteen leases controlled by them. Q. Well, are there any more controlled by the railroads? — ^A. Yes, sir; there is the Missouri, Kansas and Texas, or the Southwestern Development Company, which is the Missouri, Kansas and Texas Rail- road Company; they own six leases, five of which are being operated and one is not operated. Then there is the Sanstois Coal Company, which is largely owned by the Fort Smith and Western Railway Com- pany. I belie've they have in all seven leases, three of which they are operating and foiu they are not operating; and then there is the Mid- land Valley Railway Company. I don't really know whether they own any leases or not. They don't own any to my knowledge, neither do any of the other railroads own any to my knowledge. Q. These railroads — the Choctaw, which is now the Rock Island, and the Missouri, Kansas and Texas, and the Fort Smith and West- ern — are the only railroads that own coal lands or lease coal lands down here that you know anything about? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Brandegee : Q. My idea when I asked the question was to bring out the fact as to what the total acreage was that was owned by the railroad com- panies. — A. I don't know. Q. I did not know whether you had the information or not. — A. No, sir; I don't know. That is something that I could not tell you. Q. You have not that information? — ^A. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. You can take the number of leases I gave you and multiply that by 960 and that will give you a close estimate on the acreage. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 737 Q. Why are not all these leases operated? — A. Well, because the production of the mines is greater or beyond the demand. Q. It is because the production exceeds the demand ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there a limited market for coal down here? — A. Yes, sir; certainly there is. In the summer season these mines don't work one-half the time, and in the winter time — well, if they were fur- nished with cars as they wanted them, they would more than sup- ply the demand then. Q. Do they ship the coal out of this Territory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where to? — ^A. To Texas and Oklahoma and to Kansas, and I believe some goes to Missouri, but not much. It would be hard to ship this coal up there or to Kansas. I believe the amount is very limited that goes to Kansas. Q. Does any of it go to New Mexico? — A. Yes; I believe there is some goes there, too. Q. It don't go to New Mexico? — A. Yes, sir; I say that I believe some of it does. Q. You said something about present conditions and the supply of cars — are the lines able to supply cars? — A. No, sir; they are away behind with their orders. Q. Does that affect the production? — A. Certainly it does. I would say that the lines are not working three days a week now. Q. Is that on account of the shortage of cars? — ^A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. Do the railway lines here make a practice of giving special rates on coal during the summer months for the purpose of inducing dealers and others to lay in a supply of coal for the winter's use? Do you know anything about that ? — A. Yes, sir. Well, now, I will say that my former experience with the Missouri Pacific people gives me some information on that. They did everything they could in the world to get the people to do that. There was no inducement they could offer that would induce the people to do that. Q. Then, as a matter of fact, I infer from your answer the railroad people don't do that down here. — A. No, sir. Q. Why not? — A. Because of the outlay of money, and the coal rapidly depreciates in value. Q. The coal slacks ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that diminishes its value ? — A. Yes, sir. Now for railroad [mrposes — that is, for making steam in engines, I don't know but that ump coal that is thrown into slack is just about as good for their purposes as the lump coal is, but they get it cheaper by 25 to 30 cents a ton, and when I was managing things for the Missouri Pacific people they thought they would try and get the people to lay in a supply in the summer for the winter's use, and they made a rebate on the freight rate, reduced it materially, and reduced the price of coal, too, as an inducement, but the people would not do it. There was no inducement that we could offer that would get them to do it at all. Q. Well, do the railroads for their own use make slack coal ? — A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Weh, do the railroads ever lay in a large supply of storage coal for their own use ? — ^A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Well, is this not a fact that out here in the West when the demand for coal is so great that it can not be supplied that the rail- 738 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. roads supply their own coal first? — A. Yes, sir; and if they haven't got enough of their own they will confiscate coal that is billed out to other people. Q. Now, what I want to get at is this, do the railroad companies that own and operate their own mines here in slack times supply themselves with storage coal to be used at times when there is a great demand and a shortage of coal for commercial purposes; do they use their cars in the slack season to lay in a supply of coal for their own use, so that when the busy season comes and there is a great demand for coal, these cars will be all in a condition to use in hauling coal to supply the commercial demand? — A. Well, to a cer- tain extent, but you must bear in mind that in the Indian Territory < there is only a certain percentage of the coal that is fit for railroad purposes, and so doing that would not help out as much as you would think. Q. Why not? — A. Because ia the operation of the mines there is a certain percentage of that coal produced, and they can't sell it; they have to use it themselves. Take the case of the Hartshorn and upper vein, there is only a certain portion of that that is sale- able commercially, and the same is true of the upper vein. It is very friable, and for that reason unsuitable; it makes so much slack that it is unsuitable for commercial purposes, for no one could buy that slack; there is no market for it down here and it can't be sent to St. Louis and Kansas City in competition with Kansas and Mis- sourLslack. Q. Well, my idea was that if the railroads would store a supply of coal for their own use in the summer time, store it then for winter use, that when the winter came and this great demand for coal came that their cars would be released from supplying their own demands and would be free to supply the consumers' demands? — A. Well, that would be true to some extent. Some of this coal that is used in the winter by the railroads could be used for supplying consumers if By Senator Clark (Montana) : Q. Let me ask you this, is there any danger from spontaneous combustion? — ^A. Yes, sir; and that is a thing I overlooked. The Texas Central stored a lot of coal from the Lehigh district and it took fire and burned up their buildings and everything, and they lost thousands and thousands of dollars. I think it is impossible to store the Lehigh and Coalgate coals, for the only way you can do it with safety is to put it on the ground in small layers or piles. You can do it that way, but if you try to put it in bins of a thousand tons or so, you can't do it. Q. You mean if you store it on the ground in thin layers it would be safe? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, is that practicable? — A. Yes, sir; it could be done that way, but there would be a whole lot more slack. Q. Do your dumps down here turn on the tipple? — A. Nearly all the dumps turn on the tipple. By Senator Brandegee : Q. I understood you to say that the average price of all the coal sold at the mines for the past five years was a dollar seventy cents per ton? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE C1V1L125EEI TRIBES. 739 Q. And you say that there is a good deal of inferior coal mined here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, I want you to take that in consideration and give me some idea of what the price of the best coal is that is mined here. — A. Well, in the sunjmer months that would probably sell for two and a half a ton. That would be for what is called "fancy lump," and in the winter time it would be about three and a half. Q. Is your very best coal produced here used for steam coal or for commercial purposes ? — A. Well, it is about all used for domes- tic purposes. Q. Well, is your best coal that is produced here what would be considered in the country at large as fine domestic coal? — A. It is. It takes the place of the very finest bituminous coal. There is hardly any finer bituminous coal produced in the world than this. Its only defect is its excessive friability and the readiness with which it slacks. In fact, it is, if any, very little inferior to the best grades of Pittsburg coal, and when you get down in the Howe dis- trict you get into the steam and domestic coal. It is a very fine coal; there is no question about that. Q. It is still domestic there? — A. Yes, sir; all the coal produced throughout the Indian Territory is a first-class domestic coal. By Senator Claek (Montana) : Q. Well, if the average selling price of the coal has been a dpUar seventy-seven, some of it must have been sold for less ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To the railroads ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. How much less? — A. Well, some of it is sold not as low as a doUar thirty-five; yes, for a doUar twenty-five; I will say from a dollar twenty-five to a dollar thirty-five. Q. What use is made of that ? — A. It is used on the Southern Pacific Railroad. I think though that the dollar and a quarter coal is com- ing out of Arkansas. Q. Does this coal down here contain a large per cent of sulphur — that is, friable coal ? — A. No, sir; I don't think it does. Q. What makes it friable? — A. Well, that is the nature of it. It is very friable and breaks up easily. It is very hard to handle it without breaking. Some of it contains as much as 50 per cent of slack. Q. Well, I imderstood you to say that it contains a large per cent of fixed carbon? — A. Yes, sir; it does. Some of it runs from 65 to 75 per cent. That is a very fine coal that does that. Q. Have they ever tried to brick this coal? — A. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Q. Nothing of that kind has been attempted in this country ? — A. No, sir; they tried to make agates out of it over at Huntington in Arkansas, but it was a failure. Q. They could not make it succeed ? — A. No, sir. Q. In other places they are briquetting this slack coal very suc- cessfully? — A. Yes, sir; I understand they are and I am looking for- ward to the time when we will do the same. There is no question but the time will come when this immense supply of slack coal will be utilized. It is here and can be got at any time. Q. Do you know how much coal land there is outside of this seg- regated area? — A. I don't know exactly, but I think I can give you 740 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. an approximation of that. There is not a great deal to my knowl- edge — that is, that I know of, but I think there may be a great deal that is not discovered yet. I think I have it here some place, but I am unable to find it. I have it all written down. I think it is some- thing like 4,000 or 5,000 acres that is known to me. Q. Is that segregated land? — A. No, sir; that is outside entirely of the segregated area. That is coal lands that have been allotted to citizens of the Indian Territory. By Senator Beandegee: Q. Now I want to ask you two or three questions along this line. Have you operated mines yourself? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How? In what capacity? — A. As superintendent I have. I ' have never owned mines. Q. Well, when you were operating mines as superintendent, were you familiar with all the items that went to make up or constitute the cost of production? — A. Yes, sir; I was familiar with every item of cost that was incurred in the operation of a mine. I had to he, of course. Q. Now, in looking over a coal field with a view of estimating the total amoimt of marketable coal in it, and the amount that can probably be realized from it, in estimating the total production of a certain area, is it a fair way in estimating the amount that it wUl yield -in coal or in money, to take the thickness of the vein and the depth to which it can be worked and figure up the total number of tons that can be produced before the mine will be exhausted, assum- ing that it will be running for a number of years — say a great number of years — and then putting a price upon the product at which coal is selling nowadays, and under existing labor conditions and present commercial demands, and then to say, irrespective of contingencies, such as explosions and strikes and new competition that may de- velop, such as new competitive fields, and irrespective of all contin- gencies that may arise in that time — would you say that the fair selling, or that the fair value of the land containing the deposit of coal is its present selling price per ton, less the present cost of pro- duction per ton ? That may be a long and involved question, but if you understand it and can answer it I would like you to do so? — A. Well, "the present price per ton" is hardly fair. I would not like to .do that. The present price of coal is higher now than the average. The way I would do to get at the present price would be to take the average price for a number of years and make an average price per ton, and figure on that basis. Now, take thedifferent things you have naentioned there — such as labor conditions, competition, and so on — I would look aroimd and take them all in and figure them. Q. Well, what I mean is, even then is it possible to anticipate the different contingencies that may arise to overturn the best calcula- tions as the result of a mining proposition? — A. Well, I will say, speaking from experience, that I have never known anybody that could. Q. Could do what? — A. Foresee everything that might develop. Q. You have never found anyone yet who could foresee every contingency that might arise? — A. No, sir. Q. You mean the ones that would operate against the success of the plan? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 741 Q. But unforeseen contingencies may arise that will operate in its favor?— A. Yes, sir; but they are more like to be adverse con- ditions. Q. It is utterly impossible to anticipate these things, good or bad?— A. No, sir. Q. You can't tell, for instance, when your mine is going to be flooded by water ? — A. No, sir. Q. Nor when it will or may be blown up with an explosion? — A. No, sir; all these things are things that it is impossible by human foresight and skill and prudence to guard against. They may be modified, perhaps, but there is no absolute assurance that can be had that they won't occur. Just to illustrate, I will say that one of the best ventilated mines and one of the best sprinkled mines in the Indian Territory blew up last night and killed two men. Now, there was a mine that had all the very best of appliances for safety, but human foresight and skill could not prevent that from occurring, and so I say it is beyond man's power to foresee and prevent every- thing of that kind. That is a very serious thing, for it not only damages the mine but it lays you liable to a suit for damages. Now the explosion in that mine was the most unexpected thing imagin- able, and everything would lead you to believe it could not occur. Now that explosion will cost these people anywhere from ten to fifteen thousand dollars, and that is something that they may not have figured on. You can't anticipate these things and when you are figuring on going into the business always figure on things like that occurring, no matter what provisions you made for preventing them. Leave a good margin for such things, for if you don't you will find that your calculations are all wrong, probably. Q. So when you contemplate going into the coal-mining business, like all other businesses a man may engage in, he should calculate on the fact that things will probably not turn out to be all smooth sailing? — A. Yes, sir. Q. For things like this explosion will occur that he can not guard against ? — A. Yes, sir. Well, a certain degree of prevention can be secured. Q. I mean that such means can not be devised as will absolutely guard against these things. Of course, anyone knows that there can be a greater or lesser degree of immunity secured, but it is impos- sible to guard against them absolutely? — A. Yes, sir; all the skill, and ingenuity of tiie greatest mining men in the world has been unable to devise means to absolutely prevent them. Ways and means are constantly being devised to prevent these explosions, but they keep on occurring just the same. Now, understand me, I don't mean to say that they are ineffective; what I say is that they are inef- fective in absolutely prohibiting them; but I believe that if it was not for these means that are provided that there is not a mine in the Territory that could be worked. Q. Do they insure mines? — A. Yes, sir; there are companies en- gaged in that work, but they have found out that the Indian Ter- ritory is such an unhealthy place for them to wort that we have very few of them here. By Senator Long: Q. What do you mean by "unhealthy?" — A. Well, I mean that it was unhealthy for the insurance companies. So many accidents 742 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. happened here that they had to make good that they lost mor and they concluded that thej^ would withdraw from the Territ( and m.ost of them did. There is very few of them operating here n By the Chairman: Q. Did they insure the mine? — A. No, sir. Q. What did they insure 1 — A. They insured the lives of the min Q. They insured against accidents to individuals ? — A. Yes, sii Q. And they did not insure the mine ? — A. Well, not to my kno edge. Q. Well, they will insure the property of a mining company i its machinery, won't they? — A. Yes, sir; against fire they do. Q. But they don't insure it against explosions? — A. No, sir. By Senator Glark (Montana) : Q. The business is too risky for the companies to attempt it?— They seem to think so. Q. Has it not been your experience, Mr. Cameron, that in estimat the available amount of coal that can be taken from a given ai and in making the most conservative calculation — has it not b- your experience that when the thing was wound up it very often f short of your expectations? — A. Yes, sir; that is undoubtedly case. It is a matter of theory against practical work or results. Q. And very often the theory won't pan out? — A. Yes, sir; t is true. Q. It won't work out in practice? — A. No, sir; you can theoi ically estimate the amount of coal in any field — you may make a t oretical estimate of it, and then dig it out, and it will never come > the way you had estimated it. It will never come anywhere near The man don't live who can tell anywhere near what a field will yi( I don't care what kind of a preliminary investigation he has made. Q. Well that was my idea of it, but I wanted to know what ] thought of it. Now about these coal lands in the Chickasaw count Now, in giving a description of the character of the veins and Quantity of the coal as you have done, I must say, very intelligently want to ask you if that same description applies to all the coal lai in the Indian Territory, or were you speaking more particularly w reference to the coal deposits in the Choctaw Nation? — A. Yes, i that is what I had in mind more particularly. Q. What you had particularly m mind was the coal deposits in i Choctaw Nation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you supervision over coal mines at any other point tl these in the Choctaw and Chicksaw nations? — A. Yes, sir; I hi supervision over the entire Indian Territory. It is all under ] charge. Q. What would you say comparatively with reference to the c deposits in the Choctaw Nation as compared with those in the Ghicl saw Nation? — A. Well, there is only a small piece of land segregai as coal lands. over in the Chickasaw Nation. There is just a corner the segregation that sticks over into the Chickasaw Nation. It almost exclusively in the Choctaw Nation — the coal-land segregat is. There is a good deal of land segregated there for asphalt, 1 there is only about 2,000 acres segregated there for coal, and tl 1 put down as of no value to anybody. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 743 Q. How about the Creek Nation? Is there any coal there? — ^A. Yes, sir; there is some very good coal in the Creek Nation lying in a vein about 3 feet thick. Q. How about the Cherokee Nation? Is there any coal of any con- sequence there? — A. Well, I have only visited mines at Blue Jacket — 4 or 5 or 6 miles from Blue Jacket. They have only a thin vein there, a floating vein that lies in little billets on the sides of the hills. There is not a very great deal of it, but it is of very good quality what there is of it. Q. What is the extent of that coal deposit? — A. Oh, it is about 2J feet thick. It is a floating deposit that is found on the sides of the hills and runs into them. Q. How about the Seminole Nation? — ^A. Well, they have no coal there to amount to anything. Q. How about these deposits of asphalt? Are they all in the Chickasaw Nation? — A. Well, practically so, but there are some deposits of it also in the Choctaw Nation at Antlers — well it is 18 or 20 miles from Antlers. There is some deposits of asphalt there — irregu- lar deposits about 18 or 20 miles from the railroad. It is over here on the Frisco road. Q. How? — A. It is over here about 18 or 20 miles from the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad. Q. I infer from your statement that you don't consider the asphalt deposits as having much value? — ^A. Well, I would not like to say that. They may become very valuable in time. I won't say that at all. I am not interested in them, for they are entirely out of my jurisdiction. The act creating my office confines me entirely and exclusively to coal mines. Wmle I have been sent up to the mines — the zinc and lead mines in the Peoria and Quapaw and Miami Indian district — I have been there, but I haven't anything to do with them. Q. That is, the zinc mines up here in the northeast portion ot the Territory? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. You have no jurisdiction over them? — A. No, sir. Q. You are a coal-mine inspector? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you anything to do with lead and zinc mines in any way? — A. No, sir. The act specifies distinctly coal mines, and I have con- fined my duties entirely to that class of mines under special instruc- tions from the Department. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. Could you suggest anything by which the committee could get an idea of the average value of the mineralized portion of these segre- gated coal lands? — A. Yes, sir; I can suggest an idea. Q. Well, let's have it, please. — A. There is only one way that I know of by which it can be done, and that is to drill them thoroughly and find out just what is there. Q. Could you tell in that way? — A. You could tell approximately; but when it comes down to telling absolutely what is there there is only one way of doing that, and that is to actually dig the coal out, and then you will know exactly. Q. But if the land was thoroughly drilled, a very good rough esti- mate could be made of it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, assuming that Congress wants to dispose of these lands — these coal lands — in a way to get the most mojiey possible out of them 744 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. for the Indians who are their owners, have you any idea now as to what would be a fair market value for them, taking the acreage there is there — per acre, I mean? — A. Well, I can't hardly form an opinion on that. Q. Have you any opinion? — ^A. I don't care about expressing an opinion, for I don't know. Q. I did not ask you if you knew ; I asked you if you had any opin- ion. But I will not press that question. If you can't form an opinion as to that, do you think it is possible for anybody to do it ? — A. No, sir; I don't think it is possible. I can see as far in the ground as anybody else can, and I can't tell anythiag about it. I will say that it is impossible for me to form any judgment that would come anywhere . near arriving at it. • Q. And anything you might say as to that would be a mere guess ? — A. It would be worse than a guess. When a person makes a guess they usually have something to go on, but I haven't that. I know something about the part of the field that is opened up and developed, but that IS only a small part of all of it, and I don't know anythiag about the rest of it. Q. Well, you have been down here for many years looking over these coal fields in the Indian Territory? — ^A. I have been here twenty- three years. Q. And you have been engaged for fifty years and more in this coal- mining business in difi'erent places ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you can't give, and could not give as an appraiser, a fair judgment under oath of what your best estimate would be for the purpose of appraising an estate in these coal fields per acre, or what it would be worth per acre over the whole coal field ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is it, for anything I would say would be only a supposition until such time as drilling is done to show up how much coal there is in it. If that was done generally and intelligently, then I would be in a posi- tion to make an estimate. As it is, I am unable to do so. Q. In other words any estimate that may be made of it, is largely speculative and theoretical is it not ? — A. It is wholly so. It would all be theoretical. Q. And in making any estimate that estimate must be based upon a condition which you assume exists, and which might not in practice eventuate in the manner expected or assumed? — A. That is true. Any estimate made now would be far wide of the actual truth, one way or the other. Q. And in making an estimate there would be very little upon which to ground it? — A. Yes, sir; very little. All there is is the mines that are now in operation, and you must take into account the fact, too, that only the very choicest lands in the Indian Terri- tory are being operated. These people who have leases had their time to prospect it and select their land, and they have taken up, it is fair to assume, the very choicest coal lands in the district, "rhat was their intention in selecting them, but now and then after all their care it turns out that they have made a mistake. Q. And got hold of some thing they don't want? — A. Yes, sir; some thing that it would not pay them to operate. Of course the time may come sometime in the future when it would pay to operate all these lands, no man can tell as to that, but what people want is FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 745 something that they can operate now at a profit and the larger the profit the more it is worth to them, and ought to be to the Indians. Q. They have what may be termed the tenderloin of it now? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is what they attempted to do? — A. They have not only attempted to take it, but they have succeeded. My estimate is based on the coal mines which have been opened and which are the best coal mines any where in the Indian Territory, Q. That is all. By Senator Teller : Q. I will ask you a few questions. Now, Mr. Cameron, do you say that the only way to determine the value of these coal lands is to drill them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And in that way, you say, a fairly accurate knowledge could be obtained as to their value ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon which a fairly accurate estimate of their value could be based? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now if you had purchased some of these lands and j^ou wanted to get at the actual facts regarding the coal that was on them, how deep would you drill to ascertain that fact, before you quit? — A. WeU, if I was going to purchase coal lands I would do a good deal more drilling. Q. Well, that is the theory I wish you to proceed o'n. — A. Well, I would drill the lease pretty well over. Q. You would drill all over the land? — A. Yes, sir; in a systematic manner. Q. So as to test all of it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, what depth would you drill these holes to? — A. Well, that would depend — probably a thousand feet. Q. Well, then, how large a tract would you set apart to drill on ? Would you take one hundred and sixty acres or eighty acres? — A. No, sir; I would take much more than that. That would not be worth while. I would not take less than 1,000 acres, or 900 acres — one lease is 960 acres. Q. Well, assuming it was a tract of that size, and you were drilling the whole of it, how often or how near together would you drill your holes?— A. Well, if it was, say, a 960-acre tract it would take four or five holes to satisfy me what was in it. Now that might not satisfy me. It might and it might not. It would depend on the result of the drilling whether it would satisfy me or not. Q. Well, how many would it take to satisfy you?— A. Well, I don't know. It would depend on developments, it might take a dozen holes. Q. If you did not fiaid it satisfactory results in one, you would drill another? — ^A. Yes, sir. I would distribute four or five or six holes around over that territory and if they did not satisfy me I would drill more. They might satisfy me that the thing was no good a,nd I would not drill any more, for I wouldn't have it; and it might be if I was not ?uite satisfied I would drill more. There is no rule that can be given, t might be that I would find that four holes were satisfactory. I might quit then and conclude that it would be reasonably safe to pro- ceed with the development of the property. Q. If you found one that looked like a failure you would try in some other place ? — A. Yes, sir. S. Rep. 5013, 50-2, pt 1 48 746 riVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. Because you might find that in a good body of coal? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And if you did find a good body of coal in that, you would not be satisfied with it alone, because in the next quarter section you might not find any? — A. Yes, sir. I would want to drill it pretty thor- oughly, and it would not look very well to me if I drilled a hole here and didn't get anything or one that showed up a poor result, and another in the next quarter section that showed up well, and in the next one that showed nothing and so on — that wouldn't be a good showing. It would be too spotted. The Rock Island drilled out here over an area 6 or 7 miles square, and they drilled six or eight or ten holes over that whole body, and there is only three or four of them that showed, good results or showed a good body of coal. One was nearly 1,500 feet deep, and it showed no results. The others were from 300 to 400 feet and showed nothing worth while, so on that showing it was condemned as I think it ought to be; yet all that land is segregated and said to contain good coal, while the drill holes drilled show that it did not con- tain it. Now that is the way that showed up, yet the report segre- gatingit showed that it contained a good big body of coal. Q. JDid you include that in your estimate? — A. Yes, sir; that is all included. Q. You say that a vein of coal can not be worked profitably where it is under 3 feet? — A. No, sir; where it is no thicker than that it can't be worked at a profit. Q. What do you think is the average thickness of these veins that they have been working here? — A. Well, it varies. Q. I asked you for the average thickness ? — A. Well, in the Choctaw Nation it is about four feet, one or two inches. My annual report gives that exactly. It shows the thickness of every vein in the field or in the Territory. It is all there. I can not tell you, in any special instance, what it is. Q. Well, if you had a vein 4 feet thick that it was profitable to work it would add very greatly to the profitableness of the mine if it was a foot or two feet thicker ? — A. Certainly. Q. The thicker it is the more profitable it is to work? — A. Yes, su'. Q. It would add more value to the mine than the proportionate thickness of the vein of coal. I mean by that, that a vein of coal 6 feet thick is worth more than double that of a vein 3 feet thick, assuming that a vein 3 feet thick was profitable to work? — A. Well, it adds to the value of it of course; but you take a vein 5 feet thick and add another foot to it, that don't enable you to mine the coal any cheaper. Of course, it makes it more valuable, even if the cost of mining is the same, for it adds that much more to the production of the ground. It has a great advantage, though, in the fact that it gives you more entry room without having to do dead work. Q. And your entrance and exit would, of course, be much easier if you did not have to cut through the roof for room ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, now, when you are working in a 3-foot vein, how do you manage to get room ? — A. You cut through the roof. That work has to be done — room cut in the roof to get room to work in. They pay so much a yard for that work. Q. The operators do? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That IS for running adrift ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You say that you sprinkle here ? — A. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED THIBES. ' 747 Q. How do 3^ou sprinkle? — A. Well, we have various methods of doing it. One is with a car that is run through the drifts and pas- sages, another is by means of pipes along the rear end and the sides, turned three or four inches at each end, and we fill them with water and turn it on, and then again they have a regular system of pipes, and they work it with a hose that they attach and sprinkle that way. In that way they can sprinkle both the faces and the entries. Q. Do they always sprinkle the coal before it is mined? — A. No, sir; not always; but it is done in some mines. In the Sanbois Coal Company's mine I think they did, for it was a very soft coal and pos- sesses a very high percentage of dust, and I think they sprinkle the coal there. I know a mine where they do it now. They sprinkle the walls and the face and then they have some trouble still. It is not generally done, though, but they do it in some places. Q. And still they will have dust? — A. Yes, sir; there don't seem to be any plan that will do away with it entirely. Q. So you think that no one can form a correct idea as to the coal in a body of land without first drilling the land? — A. No, sir; I don't think they can. Q. If they do it is a mere guess ; that is, if they attempt to say what is in it before it is drilled? — A. Yes, sir; it is an estimate and a very uncertain one. A guess about defines it. In this case that I told you about you can give a pretty correct estimate of it, for the Rock Island people have drilled that land that they had, and so have the Missouri, Kansas, and Texas people, and the Central Coal and Coke Company, and the Fort Smith and Western, and the Midland Valley; but the drillings are very imperfect and not made in a systematic enough manner to enable anyone to judge as to the whole tract. Q. Have you ever worked a vertical bed of coal? — A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever seen one? — A. I have seen one that stood at an angle of 60 degrees. Q. So you never saw one that was vertical ? — A. No, sir. Q. Well, we have some in Colorado that are that way ; they will go down for 500 or 600 feet and then off and be horizontal. — A. Well, I have heard of such. We have none of them here. In Scotland we have some that are nearly perpendicular; they are not quite vertical, but nearly so. Q. That is all. By Senator Beandegeb : Q. Well, we will suppose that you had to fix a value in some way upon a man's estate — that you had to make a guess of some kind at it, and you had to make the best guess you could, had to make a try at it and guess something or other as the value — is there not some ele- ment or elements out of which you could estimate or guess whether it was worth $8 an acre or $1,000 an acre? — A. How is that? I don't xinderstand that. Q. I say if you had to make a guess of some kind, make some kind of a stab at it, is there not some way in which or by which you could say whether a man's estate was worth $1,000 an acre or only $8 an acre? This is a case that I am supposing. Is there not some way, some element of value, something on which you could base an esti- mate as to its value so that you could arrive at an estimate somewhere between these extremes ? — A. Well, I suppose you mean to apply that to this coal land ? 748 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, I will tell you; if I was about to buy this coal land I would just about sum it up this way. If I had to do it I would sum it up about like this: Some of it is worth nothing, some of it is worth $10 an acre, and some of it may be worth $100 an acre, but any- thing above $100 an acre I would not give for the best unleased land there is in the Indian Territory. Q. You would not consider the best unleased coal land in the segre- gation to be worth more than $100 an acre? — A. No, sir. By Senator Long: Q. What do you say, then, as to the reasonableness of a valuation of $10,000 an acre that has been placed on it, taking into considera- tion both the leased and unleased land, what do you think of an" estimate of $10,000 an acre that has been placed on it by Senator La FoUette, of Wisconsin? — A. Well, it is so unreasonable that I have nothing to say at all. Q. You think that is an unreasonable valuation ? — Yes, sir. Q. Is it too high or too low? — A. Too high — absurdly too high. Senator Teller. I presume that it will not be disputed that ne is a better Senator than miner. Senator Long. Well that might be open to dispute also. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Now, about this lower vein of coal, there is one thing I wish to get straight in my mind. Did I understand you to say that it was about a thousand feet below the upper vein? — A. Not in every instance. Q. Well, how far below is it? How far below the upper vein? — A. It varies considerably. In some places it might be as much as a thousand feet below it. Q. Well, how about working that vein? I understood you to say that you could not work anything to advantage below a thousand feet from the surface? — A. I believe I said a thousand or 1,200 feet, or at most 1,500 feet. Q. Now, would any considerable part of that lower vein be a thousand feet or more below the surface ? — A. It might be. Q. Well, at that depth and dipping at the angle of the other vein, it would be impossible to follow it very far, as it would dip to such a depth that it would be impossible to follow it any distance? — A. Well, the veins are so far apart that they are not the same. That lower vein is so far down that it lies where they run reasonably level that you can work them very well. For instance, take it over at Krebs here; you take the Osage Coal Mining . Company's vein at Krebs — that is, the McAlester vein, or what is termed the second vein, but it is the first vein that it is practicable to work — if you follow that vein backward toward the surface you will find that it is a mile or a mile and a half to the outcrop, and by the time that lower vein gets to the McAlester vein it is just about a thousand or 1,200 feet deep, and just about out of reach for working. Q. Well, do I understand you to say that from that point on downward you don't consider it of much value? — A. No, sir. Q. Although the coal, owing to the depth from which it comes, would be more valuable? — A. Well, I don't know that that cuts much figure. I think that the coal that you get in this district at anything above — anything below, say — 200 feet is just as good ag FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 749 anything you get in this district. When you get away from the surface the coal is as good there as anywhere else. Q. By reason of its depth — I understood from your suggestion that this lower vein of coal was over a large area workable on account of its depth? — A. Yes, sir; that is what I said. Q. So you can't figure much on the depth? — A. Well, you take two veins approaching like that — this vein is good until it gets here — to a point where it underlies this vein, and when it gets down here it is not of any value because of its depth. Q. In other words, the coal is too deep to be profitably worked? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you Tuidercut your coal in this district with machines? — A. To some extent. Q. Well, to what extent is that done? — A. Oh, to some consider- able extent, but the machine proposition is rather on the wane here in the Indian Territory. Q. Is it on account of the dip of the veins; it is hard to hold the machine in position? — A. Yes, sir; that is the trouble. Q. Do they shoot from the solid? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Miners prefer to mine without the machines ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They prefer to mine by hand? — A. Yes, sir. Machines do reasonably well in places where the angle is not acute, but you take it where the angle is from 18 to 45 degrees the machine proposition is a pretty hard one to handle. It is a very hard thing to take into consideration. They don't do the effective work they are capable of doing where the conditions are favorable. Q. Do the coal-mining companies down here adopt the system of keeping company stores and boarding houses, or do they let the miners go out and buy where they please? — A. All the coal mining companies have stores, but the miners are absolutely free to go and buy where they please. Q. There is no pressure brought on the miners to compel or induce them to buy at the company stores? — A. No, sir. Q. How about the boarding houses? Do the companies run boarding houses? — A. No, sir; they have no boarding houses. There is nothing of that kind here. I will say this, that there is no place in the world where the miner is as free to go and buy goods where he pleases as here in the Indian Territory. I don't think there is any place in the world where the condition of the miner is superior to what it is here. By Senator Teller : Q. Do you have any strikes here? — A. Yes, sir; we had one here that lasted about three months. Senator Long. That was the same time that they had the one in Colorado ? Senator Teller. No, sir; we have them continuously in Colorado. As soon as it is settled at one point it breaks out in another spot. It is endemic there. Q. Was that strike you had down here a question of wages? — A. Yes, sir; it was the question of the mining scale. The operators and miners could not get together on it for some time. Q. They did finally get together? — A. Yes, sir. 750 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. By the Chairman : Q. Was that the strike that was uniform over the whole country at the same time in the coal-producing centers ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It was a question of dispute between the miners and the opera- tors over the question of the adoption of a schedule — a new schedule for mining in the whole country? — A. Yes, sir. It embraced Penn- sylvania and Ohio, Indiana and Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, and Kansas and Texas and the Indian Territory. By Senator Teller : Q. Do these miners down here all belong to the Miners' Union? — A. Yes, sir ; pretty generally they do. Q. What is their nationality ? — A. Well, they embrace about every nationality that there is in the country. Q. Practically all nationalities are represented ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. There is a preponderance of some particular nationality among them, is there not? — A. Well, I don't know. I think the Americans preponderate. There is Americans and English and Scotch and Welsh and Germans. Q. Is there any Huns? — A. Yes, sir, quite a number. Q. Do you think the English-speaking element predominates? — A. Yes, sir, I think it does. Q. Well, it don't do it in Colorado. The dagoes predominate there. We have too many Italians. — A. Well, in some places the miners will be nearly all English speaking, and in other places they will be nearly all Italians, but I think, on the whole, the English- speaking people predominate. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Do they all rent or do some of them try to get homes of their own? — A. Some of them own their own homes. Q. Does the company build the houses and own them ? — A. Some of them they do and rent them, but the people sometimes build their own. The Italians are a great people for owning their own homes. They will get a home if they can and they like to build it and fix it up for themselves. Q. They like to have a garden about their home? — A. Yes, sir; generally they do. Q. And they do that out here on this segregated land ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do they drift around much or are they pretty steady ? — A. Well, the Italians are a pretty steady class of people. As long as the mine to which they attach themselves runs anywhere near regularly they will staj^ pretty well. They don't seem to like to drift around much. Q. Have you got any Japanese here? — A. I don't think we have any of them. Q. Or any Chinese ? — A. No, sir. Q. The miners, I suppose, would not have them ? — A. No, sir; they don't like the "Chinks." I don't know why it is, but the miners won't have the Japanese or Chinese around. By Senator Long: Q. Are there any colored people? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Many of them ? — A. Lots of them. Q. Any Indians? — A. Mining? Q. Yes, sir. — A. Well, I have known one or two to take a short turn at it. As a rule the Indians don't care particularly about mining. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 751 Q. They would rather rake in the royalties? — A. Yes, sir; I sup- pose so. Senator Long. I have some questions to ask Mr. Cameron on the matter of the estimates and statements made by the Director of the Geological Survey and also some questions on the matter of the state- ments and estimates made by Senator La Follette in the Senate; but as it is about noon and it will take me sometime perhaps, I think it would be as well to adjourn for noon, and I can start in when we reconvene. The Committee at 12 o'clock noon took a recess till 2 p. m., when it reassembled. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Chaikman. Now, Mr. Cameron, Senator Long desires to ask you some questions along the lines indicated before we adjourned for lunch. Mr. Cameron. All right. I am here to answer them. By Senator Long: Q. Mr. Cameron, have you read page ten of this (locument, being a compilation of the correspondence on the coal lands in the Indian Territory just issued by the Department? — A. Yes, sir; I have seen it. Q. Have you read it? — A. Yes, sir; I have read it. Q. What have you to say as to the estimate referred to there by the Secretary of the Interior, of an estimate made by a certain Senator as to the value of these coal lands, in which the average of the total of 437,734 acres of segregated coal lands is estimated at, that the royalties would amount to .$100 per acre, which would make the amount of royalty, estimating the amount of coal per acre at 5,000 tons, would it not — that is, 5,000 tons per acre? — A. Yes, sir; I believe it would — at eigiit ce its per ton that would be it. Q. And at 5,000 tons per acre, and estimating the value at $2 per ton, that would make the value of the output per acre at $10,000 per iacre? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, what do you say as to that estimate? — A. I believe that is a fair estimate, if that was the price that the coal realized, but the value of $2 per ton is not borne out. The actual facts show that the operators don't get that. For the past five years, ending on June 30 of this year, for that whole period, the average selling price of coal was 11.77 a ton, and from that had to be deducted the royalty, and also there has to be deducted the cost of mining the coal and hauling it out and dumping it on the cars, and also numerous other incidental expenses incident to the mining of coal. I take it that the value of the coal is what remains after the cost of production and royalty has been deducted, and the other expenses, such as interest on invest- ment, wear and tear, renewals, etc. Well, the interest on the invest- ment could hardly be counted, for that is what is paid out of the profit and represents profit. But all these other things would have to come out first, and what would be left would represent the value of the product to the operator. Q. Well, what have you to say as to the total estimate made by the Secretary of $4,377,000,000 as the value of these coal lands? — A. 752 riVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Well, if you will turn to page 24 you will see that I estimate them at $71,956,160. That is what I estimate it to be worth. Q. Yes, sir; that is your estimate of the amount of royalties. Now, what is your estimate as to the value of these coal lands? Is that your estunate of the value of the lands? — A. Yes, sir. Take the — well, it would take the balance to pay the interest on the amount of money invested and the royalty. After you take off the 8 cents, the balance of the profit that would remain after that was deducted would go to pay the interest on the money that was invested. Q. Do you mean to say that these lands, if sold, would bring or should bring $71,956,160? — A. Yes, sir. That is what they are bringing now or would bring if put permanently on a royalty system, , of 8 cents per ton, for I estunate that that much coal will be mined out of the land after I have cut out one-third of it. Q. Yes, sir; I have read that. Now, if these lands were to be sold outright, what do you consider their value? — A. Well, sir, I will say that I don't consider that the value of them at all. Q. You don't consider that to be their value? — ^A. No, sir, not if sold outright, as your question suggests. Q. Then there is a difference? — A. There is. Q. Well, I want you to explain what that difference is. — A. Well, just as I said this morning, there is some of that land that I would not take as a gift; I would not want it at any price. And there is some of it that I would take at $10 an acre, and there is some of it that I would take at $100 an acre, if I was in the market for coal land. Each sepa- rate tract is worth so much, in my opinion, by itself, and I lump them all together. There is a difference m the value of these lands. Q. Well, I want your estimate on the present worth of these lands, what they would be worth if they were put on the market and sold for purposes of mining; their present value to the tribes if they were put up and sold ? — A. Well, that is my estunate. Q. Well, what is it ? You haven't stated it yet. — A. I have,- sir, on the basis of the royalty. It is on the basis of what they would yield in royalty. You must take into consideration that it would take probably fifty years or more to exhaust the coal in these lands. Sup- pose it was — suppose it did, and this money was paid, you would have to take an average of twenty-five years interest on the purchase money, and that would have to come out of the purchase money. Q. So, then, I infer that you think this valuation of $4,377,000,000 is entirely too much? — A. Well, yes, sir; that is certainly a wonderful estimate. I don't know where they got it at all. I have read that, but really I don't know where they could find the authority for it at all. It is beyond my comprehension. Q. You don't know where they dropped on to the information for that estimate? — A. No, sir; I can't imagine where they got the data for it. Q. Well, what do you say about taking as a basis for the value of this land taking the whole output and figuring it on a basis of $2 per ton, or figuring it at $1.77aton? Would you figure out ia that way? — A. Well, no; I wouldn't. That is not the proper way to figure it out. Q. Well, what is the proper way? — A. Well, you would have to take the interest on the money invested and the cost of mining and royalties from that $1.77 a ton. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 753 Q. Well, when you talk about deducting the cost of mining, what is that cost, about, per ton? — A. Well, it varies. It costs more in some localities than others. If you want to know the average, I can give it to you pretty closely. Q. Well, what is it?— A. Well, it is about $1.65 or $1.70 a ton. I think it costs about that much to produce a ton of coal and load it on the cars. Q. You say it costs that much to produce coal that sells for $1.77 a ton? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clakk, of Montana: Q. Including royalty ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long: Q. And the average selling price is $1.77 a ton? — A. Yes, sir; that was. what it was for five years prior to June 30 last. Q. And the cost of production is what, did you say? — A. From $1.65 to $1.70 a ton. I can't consider that selling price at $2 at all, for that is too high a figure. That is not a correct figure at all. Q. The maximum profit, if I understand your estimate correctly, would be about 12 cents a ton? — A. Yes, sir; on an average. Q. After paying royalty ? — A. Yes, sir; $1.77 is the selling price and $1.65 to $1.70 is the cost of production. Now, I don't know that that is exactly the cost of production. That is my estimate. The opera- tors as a rule are not willing to let you know just what It costs them to produce coal. They are kmd of shy about giving out information on that subject. So that is my- supposition, and there is a whole lot of supposition in it. Q. Well, that is pretty near the mark, I suppose ? — A. I don't know. I don't think it will miss it far. Q. That is as near as you can get at it anyway ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that cost of production includes the 8 cents royalty? — A. Yes, sir. That includes everything, putting the coal on the car and mining it and everything. Q. So you don't approve the idea we find on page 10 of this book as to the value of this property ? — A. No, sir. Q. On page 11 of this same document or book, what would you say as to the estimates made there by the Director of the Geological Sur- vey showing the average thickness of the vein of coal to be 7 feet in all these places ? — A. Well, I think that is an overestimate by about 2 feet 6 inches. I think we will get an average thickness of coal over the Indian Territory of about 4 feet 6 inches, and I think that estimate of 4 feet 6 inches is the very extreme limit. Q. It may be less? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Can you by any possibility figure out an average thickness of 4 feet 6 inches in these two workable veins? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. You don't mean to put the two veins together and estimate them as one ? — A. I take all the veins in the Indian Territory and I take one- third off them and figure the two-thirds that are left. That is the way I do it, but the whole thing is an estimate. It is all a guess. The whole thing is in the ground yet, and you can't see into the ground and 754 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. you have to guess at it and figure your guess; that is what it amounts to. Now, I estimate from what I do know and have seen that you will get an average of 4 feet 6 inches of coal over the whole area of two- thirds of it — that is, of the coal that is leased. By Senator Long : Q. Is that a fair way to estimate it ? Here is a vein of 3 feet. — A. Yes, sir. Q. Down below this or above it, as the case may be, is a vein of 2 feet? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, the 2-foot vein is useless, for it can't be worked ? — A. Well, I don't do that. Q. But the Director does take it ? — A. Yes, sir. In district No. 1 he takes four veins and I two. Q. How many are there? — A. Three in some places and two in some places and one in another, and some tracts ha^Te no coal on them at all. Q. How about district No. 2, in which he says there are four? — A. Well, that embraces what is probably the very choicest coal-mining land in the Indian Territory. Th'ere is 10,000 acres of coal land there where it runs from 6 feet to 6 feet 6 inches in two veins. Q. Well, what do you say about his estimate, it being that it will average 9 feet in thickness there? — A. Well, all I say is that it is contrary to my experience. Q. Is it not contrary to your knowledge ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How about district No. 3, in which he says there are tw6 workable veins there? — A. Well, there is only one'that has been worked there, and I believe the desire of the people to work these fields would have up anything like that if it had been there. Q. Well, how about the average of 7 feet there? — A. I don't agree with it. Q. In what way don't you agree with it ? — A. I think it is too much. Q. How much too much ? — A. Well, about 3 feet too much. Q. You think it is stretched about 3 feet? — A. I think it is about 4 feet there. Now, in this district. No. 3, the Mexican and Gulf Transportation Company sunk a shaft 300 feet deep, and they found less than 2 feet of coal, and they had to abandon it, and that is in a district where he talks about 7 feet of coal. Q. You have been down here a good long while and around pretty promiscuously and ought to know something about these things? — A. Yes, sir. Q. AJnd you say that is an overestimate of about 3 feet? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, what do you say about his estimate of an average of 7,000 tons per acre? — A. Well, I put it at an average of about 4,000 tons to the acre. A coal vein that will average 4 feet 6 inches will average a production of about 4,000 tons per acre. I stand by that, although in some places you won't get that much, but I will stand by that estimate. Q. So you disagree with this estimate of 2,954,138,000 tons of coal as given on page 11 ? — A. Yes, sir; I can't agree with that at all. Q. Well, referring to the method of estimating the value of the lands by showing what the output is figured at so much per ton, have you you ever applied that method to the surface of the lands for the pur- pose of showing what the surface of the lands were worth? — A. No, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 755 Q. Do you know how much cotton per acre the surface of these lands will produce? — A. No, sir; that is out of my line altogether, and I don't know enough about the surface of the land to speak intelligently as to that. Q. What do you think of estimating the value of the surface of the land and taking the production of cotton for one year and then multiplying it by 30 and making an estimate in that way of the cost of production? What do you think of that method as to its being the proper way of determining the value of the surface? — A. Well, I think it is altogether out of the question. 3. Is it any more unreasonable than determining the value of the lands on the basis estimated on page 11? — A. Well, it would be erroneous, for it does not take into consideration the cost of miniag and the interest on the money. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Take it on the other basis, Mr. Cameron, I understood you to say that of the lands that are not at present leased you would not give over $100 an acre for any of them; is that what you said ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. You would not give over $100 for any of the land that is not at present leased ? — A. No, sir ; I would not give more than that for the best of them. Q. Well, assuming that the unleased land is all worth $100 an acre, that would only make $33,000,000 for all that is unleased at present? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, if the total value of the land at $100 an acre, multiplied by the number of acres makes $33,000,000, how could the royalties be $76,000,000?— A. Well, I want to be understood in this way, that I can't pay what the royalties show the land is worth. That is out of the question. I am — this is figured on the basis of 8 cents royalty which, if it is paid, it shows the value of the land to be if that royalty at the rate of 8 cents per ton was paid on the coal that is in it. Q. Well, now, I will take your other figures in this way : Do I under- stand you to say that 12 cents per ton is about the average profit that is made on coal ? — A. Well, I think that is about it. I don't know what the profit is. The operators have never taken me into their confidence far enough to divulge that to me. That esti- mate is largely a supposition. I wouldn't be positive as to that, but I think if you could get the correct figures that about 10 or 12 cents would be about the outside limit. Q. You think it would be somewhere in that neighborhood? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, if the average coal production per acre was 4,000 tons and the average profit per ton was 12 cents, then the total average profit per acre would be $480? — A. Well, 1 have not figured it. Q. Well, 4 times 1 is 4, and 4 times 2 is 8 and that makes 48, and the ciphers added makes $480, don't it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, of course, in the coal-mining business everybody that engages in it expects to make a profit in it, barring out all unforseen contingencies and accidents that may upset their plans? — A. Yes, sirj and that is what a person can't foretell. It is very simple — my estimate is. I figure that that land will produce about an average 756 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. of 4,000 tons to the acre, but some of it may Hot produce more than 1,500 tons to the acre, and some of it will produec 6,000 to the acre, but on the average I figure it at 4,000 tons to the acre. That will cover the whole thing, m my jugdment, after you have figured off one-third of the unleased ground. Q. When the Geological Survey made their explorations of this land, do you know how they did it? — A. Of my own knowledge I know nothing about it. I know very little about it. Q. Did they not consult you ? — A. Mr. Taff called once on me and we had an interview which lasted about ten or fifteen or perhaps twenty minutes or something about that. He consulted me now and then about that coal that is located south of the Canadian River, . , , and asked me about its value or extent, and I told him that I did not know anything about it much. That was true and is yet, for I look upon it now as I did then as being an unknown (][uantity. Q. Did they do any drilling on the land ? — A. They might have, but if they did 'I don't know of it, and if they had I would have known of it. Q. Well, did they do any drilling? — A. No, sir; not that I know or ever heard of. Q. And you were the Government mine inspector down here at that time? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they come to you to see how much land had coal on it and which lands had no coal on them — if they had come to you to see you about that you would have given them all the information you had upon that subject? — A. I certainly would. Q. But they did not do that? — A. I have stated to you exactly what was done and what was said and all the talks or interviews we ever had upon that or any other subject. Now, that is an undeniable fact. Q. Did you think it was strange that they did not come to you to get more information about these coal lands? — A. Well, now that is asking for an opinion that I would prefer not to express. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. In making up your estimate of the cost of mining coal and fix- ing it at about $1.65 a ton, do you take into consideration the interest on the investment necessary to sepure the coal land? — A. No, sir. Q. You did not take into account the interest on the money in- vested? — A. No, sir. Q. How many large coal mining plants are there operating in this McAlester district — that is, operating coal mines? — A. There is 100 mines, all told — well, there is about 30 or 40 of them large plants. The others are of moderate size. Q. About how much does it cost to sink a shaft and do the neces- sary work — build tipples and prepare for operating one of these large mines — that is, install the necessary machinery and do all the work and incur all the expenses necessary for putting one of these large mines in operation? — A. Well, to sink the shaft in proper working order and round out the bottom and get it in shape under ground to begin the production of coal so as to produce, say, 100 tons daily, and provide all the machinery and everything necessary for complete and successful operation, it will cost close to $100,000 for a shaft 450 or 500 feet deep. That includes the necessary machinery and every- thing. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 757 Q. And that is available to work out an area or district of about what extent ? — ^A. Well, if the shaft is properly located you may work out 1,000 acres with it. Q. Well, after that is done, what is the value of the machinery remaining to be used elsewhere? — A. Well, the engines may be of some value, but outside of that the stuff is of no practical value. Q. So, then, as a general rule, that initial expense may be charged against the production as expense at so much per ton ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that ought to be considered in figuring the cost 1 — A. Oh, yes. Q. And probably that total amount of an initial expenditure would have to be written off in arriving at the cost ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, in reference to another statement you made in regard to the present operations here — and it was very reasonable too — taking the most available sites and the land that is most valuable and most easily worked; now, in considering the question of cost, would you not have to make allowance that when these easily worked mines are developed that the more dtfi&cult ones will require a more expensive installment, and naturally that would be at a greater cost for producing coal when completed? The idea I wish to get at is whether or not in installing the machinery and facilities in the locations where the mines are now located, it would not cost less and did not cost less than it will in the future to install machinery and facilities for mining at these locations that are left, where naturally the facilities for getting at the coal are naturally not as good as they were originally, and that that will increase the cost of producing the coal per ton when this increased cost of equipment is distributed over the production pro rataperton? — ^A. Yes,sir; itwill; and then there is the element of greater danger. Each one of these items materially increases the cost. The deeper you go the more expensive it is — the more expensive it is to sink the shaft and the further you have to hoist the more expensive it is, and it requires heavier and more expensive machinery; it requires a more expensive installment, and naturally all these things materially increases the cost of production. It requires bigger tipples and a greater outlay for pumps to lift water from greater depths, and also greater expense in operating, and installing ventila- tion equipment. The deeper you go the greater the cost. By Senator Long: Q. They are getting the cream of the coal now? — A. Certainly they are. Q. I don't know whether your attention has been called to it or not, but evidently you have read in this document a letter of the Director of the Geological Survey to the Secretary of the Interior, on pages 10 and 11 wherein the Director of the Geological Survey refers to a conversation he had with Mr. Taff, or a conversation in which he requested Mr. Taff to make up an estimate as best he could from the information contained in the publication of the Interior Department entitled "Maps of segregated coal lands with descriptions of unleased coal lands. " Now, are you familiar with that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know what these refer to ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Does this refer to the examination you made ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. These maps of the segregated coal lands don't refer to anything that my colleague referred to ? — A. Yes, sir. 758 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Now, he says that the report is based on a low average of the coal, and he puts it this way: District No. 1, four workable coal beds, average for total area 9 feet. District No. 2, four workable coal beds, average for total area 9 feet. District No. 3, four workable coal beds, average for total area 7 feet. District No. 4, one workable coal bed, average for total area 5 feet. District No. 5, two workable coal beds, average for total area 6 feet. Now, you have stated as I understand, that you think that estimate is very much exaggerated? — A. After giving it very serious consider- tion and making the best exanunation I could, I came to the conclus- ion, as I have already stated, that 4 feet 6 inches is the very highest average you can get. . Q. His estimate is about 7,000 tons to the acre, and you state that your estimate is about 4,000 tons to the acre ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, Mr. Cameron, on page 32 of this same publication, there appears to be a report — an estimate taken, as I understand it, from the report of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for the year 1903, with the indorsement of yourself that you have read it and approve it. Now, in that report you estimate that the aggregate tonnage of coal embraced in the leased and unleased lands would be about 1,252,916,000 tons, which, at a royalty of 8 cents per ton, would ^gregate $100,233,280. Is that correct? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you make that estimate in 1903, or what was the basis of it; and please explain the reason for the difference in that estimate and the one that is found on page 24 which you confirmed to-day? — ^A. Well, the one embraces the segregated unleased land and the other embraces the whole of the segregated land. Q. Then your estimate on page 24 refers only to the unleased land? — A. I think so. Q. I think not.— A. Well I give it there at $71,966,120 and I give it there the same on page 24. Q. Thirty- two includes it, you say? — A. No, sir; you turn over there and you will see how my figures are — 71,753,280 — there is a sHght difference. Senator Long. Here is an estimate on page 32: You have it $100,- 233,280; down there at the bottom or near the bottom of the page you will fiaid it. Now, please explain that statement? Mr. Cameron. Well, that is all right. That don't deduct the one- third — the one-third which I say is unworkable. Senator Long. Well, when was this estimate made that is found on page 32 ? Mr. Cameron. They were all made at the same time. Senator Long. Thej were all made at the same time? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Well, what was that time ? Mr. Cameron. The only estimate that I ever made was made in April, 1906. Senator Long. Well, I can't quite understand about that estimate. It appears to have been made or some estimate appears to have been made in 1903. On page 38 it refers to a report on the Five Civi- lized Tribes made m 1903? Mr. Cameron. Well, I don't know anything about that. That was not made by me. Senator Long. But you indorse it? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 759 Mr. Cameron. If I indorse it it was in April, 1906. Senator Long. You hare only made one estimate ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; and that is the one found on page 24. Now this indorsement takes in the whole of the unleased segregated coal lands, and this on page 34 takes in the same with one-third deducted — that is, it takes in two-thirds of it, and there is some dif- ference in the acreage. I will take Senator La Follette's figures on the acreage and my figures on the same show that there is some little difference in the acreage. Senator Long. Well, I wanted to be certain in regard to that? Ml". Cameoron. Yes, sir. Q. So then you have only made one estimate and that was in April of this year? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; in April of this year. That was the only estimate I have made. Senator Teller. On page 9, Mr. Cameron, you were before the Sec- retary of the Interior, and that is where you gave the information found on page 24 ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And on page 32, are the figures that they got up and made certificates frora — is that correct? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; yes, sir; I see now that is how it is. In glancing at it now I see they embraced the whole of the land. Senator Teller. If you will follow do'wn from page 12 to page 28 you will find really what Mr. Cameron said. I don't think there is any contradiction in it. Mr. Cameron. I am satisfied that there is not — that it will all recon- cile, for I have never had anything else to say only what I have stated here. There it is right there — you see the two are added together there. There is no difficulty about it. The thing is self- explanatory when you look at it Senator Long. Mr. Cameron, can the value of coal lands be arrived at by adding together the workable veins of coal and the unworkable veins of coal? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. Senator Long. The thickness of, say, three veins might be 8 feet when added together — the total thickness of all of them — but there might be only one vein of 4 feet that you could work. Is that right ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Senator Long. If you put in a vein 6 feet thick and one only 2 feet thick the only one that would be of any value would be the one that was 6 feet thick? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Senator Long. By adding together a lot of veins that would swell it up and make the aggregate look very well ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. How many veins were you consider- ing, Mr. Cameron, when you were making up your estimates of the workable, doubtful, and valuable coal? Mr. Cameron. Well, I took all the veins that were mentioned in Mr. Taff's report and I cut out the secor, or upper vein, and that runs from 2 to 3 feet in thickness. Senator Clark, of Montana. That you cut out of consideration? 760 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; and I can give you the reason I cut it out if you wish to know it. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, do so, please ? Mr. Cameron. I cut it out for the reason that every person who has ever tried to operate in it has made a total and complete failure of it. Nobody has been able to make a success of it, and I considered that it was worthless. Senator Clark, of Montana? Is anyone trying to work it now ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. Yes, sir; there is one trying it now. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you consider it worthless ? Mr. Cameron. Not worthless, but doubtful. Senator Clark, of Montana. Why do you consider it doubtful ? , Mr. CAMEfiON. Because it never was prospected, and no knowledge can be had of it from surface indications. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you refer to any particular vein? Mr. Cameron. Well, the general vein in the Indian Territory. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, what veins of coal do you con- sider of value down here ? Mr. Cameron. Well, the only ones that I consider of any special value are the MoAlester vein and the upper and lower Hartshorn veins. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, now, is this McAlester vein, or the one you refer to as the McAlester vein, is that called or referred to as the McAlester vein throughout the district ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; it is called the McAlester vein everywhere. Senator Clark, of Montana. And these other two Mr. Cameron. Well, no; that is not altogether correct. In the Lehigh district the upper vein is the McAlester vein and it is called the Lehigh vein there, but it is the McAlester vein, the same vein that is found everywhere, but it is changed slightly in character only. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, it is because you have no defi- nite information about this 109,159 acres that you have left it outi Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; that is the only reason, for if I had been possessed of definite information I would have put it in with one or the other. Senator Clark, of Montana. That is the land that you don't know anything about because no development has been done on it which would justify you in making any positive statement about it ? Mr. Cameron. That is the very reason. If I knew anything posi- tively about it I would say something about it, but not having any knowledge I don't say. Senator Clark, of Montana. Some of that land may turn out to be pretty good, may it not? Mr. Cameron. Some of it may and some of it may not. Senator Clark, of Montana. Would it be safe to make any calcula- tion about it, or would there be any use in doing that ? Mr. Cameron. Well, I would scarcely care to hazard an opinion about it, but I fear that there is a considerable area of that land which it will not be practicable to work. Senator Clark, of Montana. The question of depth may have influ- enced you in coming to that opinion or conclusion? Mr. Cameron. The one-third that I have cut out is cut out owing largely to the depth at which the coal lies; that and the other un- known conditions. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 761 Senator Claek, of Montana. What depth do you take in making your estimates as the extreme hmit of depth at which this coal could be worked? Is it a thousand or 1,200 feet? Mr. Cameron. Well, as I stated before, I state now; it is from 1,200 to 1,500 feet. I am not governed by what other people say about it; I, myself, would not take it as a gift below 1,200 feet, or, say, 1,500 feet. Senator Claek, of Montana. Well, which of these depths would you say would be the extreme limit of depth? Mr. Cameron. Well, I'll say 1,500 feet. That is the very extreme limit, and I have serious doubts if it can be worked at that depth. Ser\^tor Clark, of Montana. But there may be places where you could work it at from 1,200 to 1,500 feet? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. At another point in the coal field which you have described I understood you to say you could go down for some distance following the coal on an incline, when it changes its position and becomes flat, or practically so. Is that the case in some instances ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; it does in some instances. For instance, I can give you an illustration: Take that large body of coal land that is segregated at Red Oak — there is seven or eight miles, roughly speaking, in a square block there, and that goes on and comes up on the other side, and then it goes over again. Now, that is all we know about it, and we have a record of it from the most reliable people. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are any of these veins faulted? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; some of them are full of rolls. The McAlester vein is the freest from rolls. Where you find rolls it is impossible to get returns. You take the McAlester vein on the Ardmore branch. You will find miles of it where it is from 2 feet 6 to 2 feet 8 inches where it is broken off, and you will find it lying in all positions, from flat up to 30°. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you include that in your estimate ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; I cut that all out as being worthless. Senator Clark, of Montana. It is included in the portion that you say is of no value ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. That is all cut out of my estimates. Senator Long. Mr. Cameron, on page 36 of this document is found a memorandum which the director of the Geological Survey says was prepared by Mr. Taff, giving the basis or method of his determining the average thickness and extent of these coal beds. In the sketch found on the page opposite to page 36 he says the outcrop of the McAlester coal is 4 feet, the outcrop of the Hartshorne coal beds is 4 and 5 feet, average of the two together 9 feet, and on page 36 he states: The sketch herewith illustrates the conditions found in land west of McAlester; also in the vicinity of Wilburton. It is evident that the area between the outcrops of the Hartshorne and McAlester coals contains 9 feet of coal, the combined thickness of the two workable beds. Now, what have you to say as to the method of determining the average thickness of a vein of coal by combining the thickness of. each of two separate and distinct veins of coal. Now, I want to know what you think of that — from the standpoint of the practical coal man, what do you think of that method ? S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 49 762 . FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Cameron. Well, I think that you can't do it. Senator Long. You think it is not the proper way of arriving at the practicable and workable amount of coal anywhere to do that ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; that is what I think. Senator Long. Well, when it is done is it a practical estimate ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; it is a supposition. It is just a product of the imagination. Senator Long. It shows more»an ability of imagination rather than an imagination of coal ? Mr. Cameron. Well, you take that McAlester coal. He says it is 4 feet thick. He estimates it at 4 feet thick everywhere. That is what he assumes it to be uniformly throughout the districfr, and., it is now. You take that McAlester vein at Krebs, it is 4 feet thick there, but when you leave there and go down to Alderson you find it diminished to about 3 feet 6 inches. Senator Long. That is the McAlester vein? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. When you leave Alderson and go to Bach you find it diminished to about 3 feet or 3 feet 3 inches, and go from there to Dow, you will find about the same thickness — 3 feet or 3 feet 3 inches — and you go from there to the Bolen-Darnell Coal Com- pany's place it is from 2 feet 3 to 3 feet. I have never measured it there over 3 feet, and I have measured it on various occasions; and while they say it is 3 feet 3, 1 have never found it to be over 3 feet. Senator Long. Where is the thickest vein of coal in this country? Mr. Cameron. Well, I think at McCurtin it is about 6 feet. ■ Senator Long. Do you mean to say there is not a 9-foot vein of coal in the whole district or Territory? Mr. Cameron. Oh, no, no, no; there isn't. Now, you may find places where it is thicker than that, but if you do, it is where a dislo- cation occurred, and there may be a table formed. It would be thicker at that point temporarily, but I am talking about the veins of coal. There are no vems in the Territory that are that thick. I am speaking about the uniform thickness. I don't think it is over 6 feet anywhere. It will run from 3 feet to 6 feet, and the average over the whole Territory is not over 4 feet. Senator Long. So there is not a vein of coal in the whole field, so far as you know of, that is 9 feet thick? Mr. Cameron. No, sir Now, allow me to say this: One vein may average 4 feet, and then another vein may come in that will average 4 feet, too, but that would be two veins, and the total thick- ness of the two would be 8 feet, but if this vein dips on here to the outcrop of course you can't work it, and to count that as one vein is doubling up something that you can't work as one vein. This is the rule all through the district with a few exceptions in the Wil- burton district. Senator Long. That is all. Senator Clark, of Montana. You said this morning that there was a limited market for this coal, and that there was times when the coal mined could not all be sold? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; the mines will easily produce more coal than can find a market. Senator Clark, of Montana. I will ask you if this coal will make a good coke, or is it valueless for coking purposes? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 763 Mr. Cameron. It makes a very good quality of coke, although it is weak. Senator Glark, of Montana. That is, the cell structure is not firm ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; it is brittle. Senator Clark, of Montana. It would not be valuable for smelting heavy ores of copper and lead in the West ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; it is used considerably for smelting ores, but it is not used for castings and such as that. The Chairman. Where do they send that coke for sale? Mr. Cameron. It is sent largely to Mexico. Senator Clark, of Montana. I was going to ask you whether you found a limited market for coke or a good market for it, and whether or not you could not increase that market and make it more valuable ? Mr. Cameron. Well, the transportation charges on that coke are so heavy that it is a great handicap, and taking into consideration the price of coke and what it has to compete with, it is a very serious problem whether the facilities for making it can be increased. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, this is so near to Mexico and Monterey and other places where they use coke largely, and the dis- tance would not be much greater, if any, than from here to Colorado, and they ship coke from Pocahontas, W. Va., to these places, and this is much nearer. Mr. Cameron. Well, the cost of production or manufacturing coke is greater here than anywhere else that I know of in the United States. Senator Clark, of Montana. The cost of producing the coke is greater here ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; the cost of producing coke here in the Indian Territory is greater than anywhere else I know of. If my information is correct, they produce coal for about $1 a ton, and sometimes for as low as 80 cents a ton in Colorado. Now, coke pro- duced from that coal that is produced for 80 cents or |1 a ton as opposed to $1.77; you can see at a glance the difference that will make in the cost of the coke, and the day labor is much in conform- ity with the difference in the coke and the production of the coal. Senator Clark, of Montana. Then you think the production of coke here is out of the question? Mr. Cameron. Well, I don't say that. The production of coke down here is gradually developing. The Fort Smith and Western, which I stated is the Sanbois Company, they produce about 35 per cent of lump coal, and the balance is slack now. They have built either 200 or 208 ovens, and they are producing quite a good share of the coke; that is, they were for a time, but they have shut down now. They had just started and it began to look as if they were going to do a good business, but they have quit. Several of the plants are shut down. I understood that they would start up again, orsome of them, but they haven't as yet. For instance, there is 100 ovens at Howe that they can't use, and 58 at Alderson which they can't run. I was talking to a gentlaman that is in charge of one of the plants and he told me that the reason they could not run them was because of the new railway rates that have been put in operation, which are pro- hibitive. Senator Clark, of Montana. They cannot manufacture and ship under those rates ? 764 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. Cameron. No, sir; the rates are such as prohibit them from doing any business. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, it seems that in respect to that, the rate bill has not done them much good? Mr. Cameron. It would seem not. Senator Clark, of Montana. That is all. STATEMENT OF MB. CABL SCHOLZ. The Chairman. Mr. Scholz, I understand you are familiar with the operation of coal mines in this Indian Territory field. Mr. Scholz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I wish you would state for the benefit of th® stenographer your occupation, so far as it is connected with the pro- duction of coal here, and in what interest or interests you operate, and the extent of those operations, and your experience m coal mining matters? Mr. Scholz. My present position is manager of the mining prop- erties of the Rock Island Railroad, including the Choctaw, Okla- homa and Gulf, and my title is president of the Rock Island Com- pany's operating mines in the Indian Territory. In addition to these mines here we operate mines in Indiana and Illinois. The Chairman. What is your experience in the matter of the production of coal ? Mr. Scholz. My experience in the production of coal dates back to 1892 — from 1892 down to 1896 I was a mining engineer in West Virginia, and from that year down to 1901 I was a coal operator, operating my own mines, and since that time I have been operating mines for the Rock Island. The Chairman. How many mines does the Rock Island operate here? Mr. Scholz. Six mines — 5 shafts and 1 float. The Chairman. Now, Mr. Scholz, you may state what you have done toward ascertaining the extent of the coal fields down here in the Indian Territory. What I mean by that is for you to state the extent of what you have done, or the companies you represent have done, for the purpose of ascertaining the extent of the coal fields that are down here in what is known as the segregated coal fields or lands of the Indian Territory. Mr. Scholz. About three years ago when I found that the knowl- edge of these segregated coal lands was very limited, and that no one appeared to know very much about them, and that very little was known concerning the coal under our leases and under the land surrounding our leases, I recommended that we should go to work and do some prospecting by drilling, and especially did I recommend this when I found that there had been no drilling done in anything like a systematic manner. Well, that recommendation was carried into effect by the parties with whom I am interested, and drilling was done. Between 1903 and 1904, or rather in 1903 and 1904, between $35,000 and $40,000 was expended in drilling, and one- half of it was spent on the segregated unleased lands and the balance on our leased property. I fel*- that the interests of the railroad company demanded that we should find out as far as possible what coal we had on our lands and FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 765 what was available for mining purposes, and especially were we interested in finding that out since statements were made as to the quantity of that coal that seemed to us to be rather extravagant and without foundation. Under the circumstances I felt that we would be justified in expending considerable money for the purpose of finding out how much coal we had available for mining purposes, so we started drilling and that was carried on for nearly two years at a cost of nearly $40,000. In addition to that my frequent visits to the mines and the knowledge of what is being done at the mines has enabled me to arrive at a reasonably accurate conclusion as to the extent and continuity of the coal beds. I may say that, in addition to my experience in this field, I have had experience in other coal fields embracing a large part of the coal deposits of the United States and in foreign countries, especially in Kussia and Germany. Senator Long. Now, state what you did and what you found in relation to these coal beds. Please state it in detail all about that. Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, I have been in the room here and I have heard the statements made by Mr. Cameron, and I will state that they are very close to the facts as far as we have ascertained them. In fact realizing that he was a gentleman of a wide and practical expe- rience ia coal mining, we have frequently communicated with him in order to get his views and give him ours — in fact there has been a frequent interchange of views and opinions between us regarding the situation. This interchange of ideas is often very instructive and is never anything other than beneficial, for we are all here to learn what we can. Well to resume — I can't think of anything more to say unless you wish me to go over the same ground that Mr. Cameron did. What I will say will be substantially a repetitidn of what he has already told you. Senator Clark, of Montana. Mr. Cameron said that it was rather difficult for him to get at what the exact cost of mining was. He gave his estimate and said that it was only an estimate, though he thought it would be rather close to the mark, still he could not guarantee that it was accurate, for the coal mining companies were averse to giving out information as to what it cost them to produce coal. Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Mr. Cameron said the coal companies were rather reluctant to give him information on that subject. Now, can't you enlighten us a little on the subject of what the actual cost is for the production of coal down here m the Indian Territory, in- cluding the cost of labor, power, and everything connected with its production ? That is what we want to get at definitely, for Mr. Cameron said he did not know and the figures he gave us were merely an esti- mate that he had made with rather insufficient data. Mr. ScHOLZ. The statement of Mr. Cameron about the reluctance of the mining companies down in this Territory to give him figures does not apply to our companys, for we have always been willing to give him full and accurate figures as to the results of our operations, ]ust as they appear on our books. Our books are at all times open to the mine inspector or the State authorities who might call for them. Our company never has had anything to conceal, and these things are open to anyone who has the right to know about them. I have no hesitation in telling this committee. 766 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. I have before me here a statement which shows the results of our operations, and I might say right here that Mr Cameron's figures are too low. This may be due to the fact that we mine most of our coal from the McAlester vein, which is the most expensive vein to mine in the Indian Territory. He referred to a mine this morn- ing in which he said that it cost as much as $3 to produce every ton of coal mined there, and I regret to say that I am the guilty party. We have that mine. It is shaft No. 6. That is where that expen- sive coal comes from. It comes from conditions there you, can con- trol, but at the same time the mine is not fully developed. It is as yet in a constructive condition, and that is largely instrumental in the excessive cost of production. The average cost of producing Hartshorn coal runs from $1.35 to $1.50 on working days. Whei% we are able to work it six days in the week throughout the year, I believe that from $1.45 or $1.55 would be a fair average estimate of the cost of production, but owing to conditions you are not able to control, or we are not able to control, the cost runs up above that considerably. The Chaieman. That is, you mean that your fixed charges are just as heavy for the days you don't work as they are for the days you do work? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; the fixed charges runs on just the same, and the average cost for certain items are just the same during the year whether the mine is working or idle. So, you see, there are certain things that you can't control, and that is one of them. The Chaieman. How many days do you work in the year? Mr. ScHOLZ. There are six working days in the week, and that makes about 300 in the year, but we rarely get in as much as a month of successive working days, and in the year we rarely, if ever, average more than 200 workmg days in the year. The Chairman. And you have employees whose duty it is to be there every day in the year whether the miners are working or not, and these men are paid for their time? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; we have employees who are there three hundred and sixty-five days in the year, and nights too, and they are all paid, as a matter of course. These are the things that help to pull the price of the cost of mining the product up. If the mine was running all the time these fixed charges would be distriblited over a larger production, and that would proportionately lower the cost of production. In accordance with a request of Mr, Long and Mr. Lowe, I have here a statement which embraces 12 typewritten pages, and it sets forth in detail the expenses of mining which the average mining man is not familiar with. The Chairman. Can you state the contents of that in general terms that would be intelh^ble to the layman? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. In the first place, I have narrated or given a history of the Choctaw Coal and Railway Company's leases, which afterwards became the property of the Choctaw, Oklahoma and Gulf Eailway Companj^. I want to show that out of the thirty leases which we originally obtained we have retained only 18^ and let llj go, and these 18 J we now hold. These 11^ leases have been taken over — sur- rendered to other companies — without any compensation whatever. I can but briefly touch upon these matters that were gone into by_Mr. Cameron in his statement this morning. It is not necessary to go into FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 767 a detailed description of all the mining methods and conditions that are to be found m' this field. I will say, just briefly, that the condi- tions existing here are different from conditions in any field other than this that I have any knowledge of, and these conditions are various in their character and all operate to make the field harder to operate and more expensive than is usually found in coal-mining regions. These conditions, which tend to make this a difhcult region to operate, are the same as referred to by Mr. Cameron and which he has very fairly and accurately described, namely, pitching veins, water, gas, and the incidental troubles that follow water and gas, namely, fires and floods. Including these items the expenses are so large that you will reluctantly believe just what they mean. I affirm as a fact that it is almost incredible what these obstacles amornt to, and any man withoat actual experience with them would be hard to convince that their existence is so detrimental to the coal-mining industry down here. It is impossible without actual operating experience under these conditions to realize just what they mean. Unfortu- nately in addition to the actual damage they do to the physical property they entail loss of life and physical injury to the miners, which is by far the most serious consideration. Damage to the property of a mining company may be remedied by the expenditure of money, whereas no expenditure of money will restore a life that is gone. These accidents are of weekly occurrence, yes, almost of daily occurrence in this section; not is one property, bi.t taking the district as a whole, they are of very frequent occurrence, and frequently quite destructive. Another phase of the matter, aside from the damage to the physical property, is the damage suits that the company is subject to for damages resulting from tnese explosions to employees. No matter what the precautions may be that are taken to avoid and grevent them, when they do occur you are pretty sure to be con- •onted with one or more damage suits, which you will have to settle voluntarily or contest them in court. The advance in the price of cotton affected the operation of the mines to the extent of $200 a month. Very few men would know, and the most of them would be apt to ask in what manner the advance ia the price of cotton could affect the market for coal, or rather would affect the cost of operating a coal mine, but it does, and if they could see the amount of brattice we have to buy they would readily under- stand how it is. Now, Mr. Cameron made some remarks about the selling price of coal averaging abotit $1.88 The Chairman. I will correct you there; he said $1.77 a ton was the selling price for five years prior to June 30 last. Mr. ScHOLZ. Is that what he said was the selling price ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Mr. ScHOLz. Well, in that case that would be below what it cost to produce it. We could not produce the McAlester and Hartshome coals for that figure. The Chairman. That is not the cost of production; that is the average selling cost sold at the mine— what it sold for at the mine, in other words. Mr. ScHOLZ. I understand. I want to call your attention to this statement, which gives our selling figures just as they are with the cost of production, and as our coal is mined from the more expensive 768 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. and difficult veins to mine, hence our figures are greater than those fiven by him. I am making this explanation so you may see how the ifference arises. If I did not make this explanation you probably would not comprehend the difference. The Chairman. You are seUing the coal for more than $1.77? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And do you say it costs more than $1.65 to pro- duce it ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What do your figures show is the average cost of production of coal at your mines ? Mr. Scholz. The average cost according to our statement is $1.80, per ton in the Wilburton and Hartshorne, and it is $2.50 from the McAlester vein. Our McAlester coal is mined from a different portion of the vein upon the Bates and Alderson territory. The Chairman. What is the thickness of the coal? Mr. Scholz. In places it is from 3 feet to 3 feet 2 inches thick, and at Alderson it is from 3 feet 6 to 3 feet 10 inches. There is not very many places where it is 3 feet 10, but I want to be liberal. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is that clean coal ? Mr. Scholz. With one exception in the Alderson district it is thin coal. In one portion that I have just referred to we have found a parting of slate which has reached a thickness of 24 inches. It is — it has come in in the center of the vein which increases the total thickness of the vein, but 24 inches of the thickness of the vein is due to the slate parting that has come into it. It is very rare to find that, for the slate we have here is very soft. You can't pick it out very easily, for the slate is so soft it will fall to pieces if you attempt to handle it, and so it is very difficult to pick it out, and it is almost impossible to remove it except by washing. Senator Long. Have you seen this statement here which says that the thickness of the vein is 9 feet? Mr. Scholz. Yes, sir; I read it last night. Senator Long. Well, what do you think of it ? Mr. Scholz. Well, to say the least, it is an exaggeration. The Chairman. He means that the two veins taken together throughout the district would average 9 feet. Senator Long. Yes, sir; that is what he means. What do you say as to that ? Mr. Scholz. Well, all I have to say is that it is absolutely ridicu- lous so far as this Territory is concerned. It is true that there are two veins, but they have to be worked separately. I know of but few places where two veins can be mined at the same time. The profile that we have here shows what I mean. Senator Clark, of Montana. How far apart are these veins? Mr. Scholz. The McAlester and the Alderson veins are 1,200 feet apart. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do they lie at an angle? Mr. Scholz. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is the dip uniform ? Mr. Scholz. They dip very much at the same angle. The deeper down in the facing we go the bolder becomes the dip so there would be some little difference in the dip in the outcrop, because relatively FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 769 speaking you measure the dip at the right angle; but I think the two veins dip or pitch at about the same angle in the same place. Now this profile represents them as far as they can be represented with the geological structure 6i the field. It is taken at a point about halfway in the field, and this lower blue line represents the Hartshorn vein, and the top line represents the Alderson vein. The scale is so small, however, that it is difficult from this to conceive how the pitch is; nevertheless, it gives you an idea of how difficult it is to reach the center of the basin, or how impossible it is to esti- mate the basins. The bottom of the largest basins would lie at a depth of from 4,000 to 6,000 feet below the surface. That statement will give you an approximate idea of how difficult it is to get to it. Under these circumstances it is absolutely impossible to conjecture, much less to state, whether there is any coal at all, and if it is there whether it could be mined. There is nothing in "coal mining as developed at this time that would warrant anyone in saying that the coal could be mined at all. This thin blue line here represents the McAlester vein. Senator Clark, of Montana. It does not go as deep as the other? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, it lies 1,200 feet above the Hartshorn vein, consequently it would be that much nearer the surface. Senator Long. How deep can coal be mined with profit in this field? Mr. SoHOLZ. Well, I have always said that the limit, having in mind the surrounding fields — I have always said that the limit of depth was 1 ,000 feet. Senator Long. One thousand feet is as deep as it can be mined in this field? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir ; taking into consideration everything, I would say that 1,000 feet is the maximum depth at which coal could be mmed in this field. I would not say positively. It may be that we can't mine it at that depth. Our mining operations are conducted now at a depth of 650 feet, and I will say that the conditions which sur- round us have become so bad that if we had to go to a further depth of 400 feet and the conditions — adverse conditions and difficulties that we would meet with in that additional 400 feet — should increase in the same ratio, we could not do it. Senator Long. If the difficulties you have encountered thus far should increase as you go downward in the same ratio as to depth, then you say that you could not go to a depth of 1,000 feet? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; I would say that we could not. Senator Long. Well, how much deeper could you go than you are now? ' , Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, I don't know, but I would say not to exceed 850 feet. Senator Brandegee. Is it warm there ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. What is the temperature there? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, I regret to admit that I never took the tem- perature, but it is uncomfortably warm down there. It requires a great deal of ventilation, and there is a great amount of fresh air injected into the workings at that depth, and still it is uncom- fortably warm; that would natm-ally lower or raise the temperature 770 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. from what it would be there normally. The air is taken down the middle and is split at the bottom and allowed to return at either side. Senator Clark, of Montana (referring to plat) . Now, this represents the outcrop ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Natm-ally you would look for the out- crop of the coal to the southward ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, if you found it — if so, how far is that from here ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, I don't know just what facing this refers to. There are facings, however, such as the Hartshorn face, where the outcrop has been defined all around and it has been explored thor- oughly. The larger or main facing, which we assume is the out- crop, comes in from this side. That is our opinion, but it is a theory rather, which has not yet been established thoroughly. It prob- ably is correct. Senator Teller. Well, that is the outcrop as you have it shown there? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; that is what we assume is the outcrop. Senator Teller. Now, where are you working? Mr. ScHOLZ. We are not working either one of these veins. Senator Teller. You are not working either one of these veinsi Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; when these sections were taken. Senator Teller. What does this map represent? Mr. ScHOLZ. This map represents the leases which our company holds. The Chairman. Well, this is the map I saw yesterday? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What does this line represent ? Mr. ScHOLZ. This yellow line represents the outcrop of the McAlester basin, and this line here the outcrop of the Hartshorn. This underlies the McAlester coal. The vertical distance from this vein to this one is 1,200 feet. In other words, from where this crops out a shaft 1,200 feet deep would be required to reach the Hartshorn vein. In this case the outcrop has been definitely explored. Q. How far on the surface is it from this outcrop to this one? — A. Very nearly a mile. Well, in this case it is less than a mile, there- fore the pitch here is very steep — fully 70 per cent. The Chairman. What did you say the pitch was there? Mr. ScHOLZ. This vein pitches there very nearly 70 per cent, or on that angle. This map shows that pitch, so far as we have been able to get at it, and the Hartshorn vein pitches at about the same angle there. The Chairman. They are practically parallel? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So they keep just about as far apart as they are at the surface? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do they keep that pitch very far? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, that has never been established. That is the theory but it has not been established as a fact. The outcrop here is equal at those points and it is assumed that it must flatten down very rapidly as it goes down. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 771 Senator Clark, of Montana. The ground has been scored off here? Mr. SoHOLZ. Well, that may be. It has either been scored off in the days that have gone by, or the strata has been subjected to a fold- ing process and the result has been that it faulted and pitched at the angle it does. Senator Clark, of Montana. That is your theory or way of account- ing for the manifestations you find here ? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. This map was made from actual surveys ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. This map shows the worked-out areas and the dip of the coal and its depth at various places, or various portions of the various leases, and the drill holes and where there is coal, and at what depth, and also the shafts and their depths. Now, the question was asked of Mr. Cameron as to the cost of devel- oping mines and the amount of capital required or the amount of investment required to put a mine on a substantial and paying basis. Now, I will say that the equipment of a shaft mine will cost anywhere from $75,000 to 1100,000, and that means the cost of equipment and machinery and shaft sinking and underground development and the necessary houses for your employees; also mules, rails, tracks, mine cars, and everything in the way of equipment. Senator Clark, of Montana. To do this requires the initial expend- iture of from $75,000 to $100,000? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Before you produce one ton of coal ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Oh, in the process of doing the work of development it will produce some coal — it is necessary to produce some in doing that work. Senator Long. Well, I mean before it will produce a ton for the market ? Mr. ScHOLZ. I mean before the mine produces sufficient coal to be on a self-sustaining basis. In order to put a mine on a self-sustaining basis a certain minimum amount of production is required, and in the operation of a mine we charge all our expenses to construction account until the mine is producing 100 tons of coal daily^ for the reason that a mine until it reaches that producing stage can not be said to be earning its expenses. Now, that applies to a shaft mine ; for the cost of developing a slope mine is materially less, and you may say that it will require about $20,000 to develop a slope mine. The Chairman. Well, how many employees' houses can you build and other buildings with $20,000 that you say is all that is necessary in the development of a slope mine ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, a slope mine becomes productive in a much less time than a shaft mine. It develops much more readily and the length of time required to get, returns from it is very much shorter. When I state the difference in the length of time you will see the reason for that. It takes about two years, time to develop a shaft mine, at least from one to two years are required to sink the shaft, and after that the entries have to be cut, and it takes lots of time to put it in proper shape. In the history of coal mining in the Indian Territory the first coal mines that were developed were on the strip basis, and that was the proper way to develop them, for it was the cheapest. The country was new and the business was new, and the fieW was totally unde- veloped, and they could see what they were doing, so it had a good 772 PrVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. many meritorious points of view. Where it can be done it is always the best, the most economical, and the cheapest way of doing it. Now, that applies to where the mining requirements are small, where there is not a great demand for coal that recfuires extensive operations, and while strip mining is the best where it is done on a small scale, it soon becomes ineffective because the water soon collects in the slopes in such quantities that it precludes that form of mining. When we commenced operations here we worked on that plan, but it was not a great while before we had to abandon all our slopes and resort to shaft mining. Another thing that influenced us is the fact that the life of a shaft mine is longer and the output more regular and certain, and we are not subject to so many close downs such as unavoidably occur^ in slope mining. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, what causes are there that occur in slope mining that cause shut downs and don't cause the same troubles in shaft mining? Just state what they are. Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, the outlet of a slope mine is one siagle slope, and everything has to go in and out that way, and one rock fall will close it down effectually for a greater or shorter time. If you have a shaft mine you have two shaftlevel entries; besides, in a shaft mine you drive slopes below the shaft-level entry and drive planes above the shaft-level entry, and you have the chance of maintaining a reasonably regular output; and the output is very much greater, too, because as the slope goes down you have to haul all your coal over the same ground, and the speed of a trip on the rails is limited. In shaft mining you can hoist your coal very quickly, and the increased depth of a shaft is comparatively a very small item as far as the cost of hoisting is concerned. That is a very small item to overcome, because the cages travel up and down very quickly. Senator Teller. Will you explain what you mean by these dif- ferent levels? Here is your vein, I will say, and it runs this way, and you put your shaft down to catch it like that ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Now, do you go down here and run across here and strike the vein here [illustrating] ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Teller. That is not the way it is done here ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir ; that method is not pursued in this district. Senator Teller. Why is that method not pursued here? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, sir, that method would not be feasible in this section. You take the coal, lying as it does, in many instances at an angle of twenty degrees it is not possible; and it is not practi- cable where the coal lies at an angle or slope of ten degrees. I could make a sketch of it very readily and show just why it is not feasible. Now, if this will help the committee, I will say that we would drive slopes out. Suppose this is north [illustrating], we would drive slopes out east and west. Here would be the shaft-level entries, and at these shaft-level entries we would drive plans uphill and slpoe downhill, and by means of engines or motors or haulage of some kind, the coal would be taken from here up to the shaft, and up here we would station motors or some mechanical appliances and take the coal up. That is the method employed in this section. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are these shafts perpendicular or inclined ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 773 Mr. ScHOLZ. They are perpendicular. Senator Clark, of Montana. All of them ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sh. . Senator Long. You were discussing the question of production which you said in the case of your company — tlie cost of production you said was in the case of your company from $1.80 to $2.50 per ton. Is that correct? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. ■ Senator Long. Now, you said that the average selling price of the coal was $1.77 a ton, or that was what it is reported to he. Now, you use some of your coal yourself in your operations there. Now, that coal that is consumed by your company in its operations — do you charge that up to the company, or how do you proceed ? Mr. ScHOLZ. The method of procedure with our coal company is that it is handled entirely separate and apart from the railroad company. Senator Long. The railroad company has an account for the coal? Is that it? It buys the coal from the coal company and pays for it the same as any other customer would, or does? Is that correct? Mr. ScHOLZ. The coal company does business with the railroad company in identically the same way that it would do business with you or anyone else. There is no difference in the way the coal company does its business with the railroad company as con- trasted with the way business is done with anybody else. They are all on the same plane. That was the policy I recommended when I came to the company five years ago, and it has been put in effect. I recommended that course because I thought it was foolish on the part of the railroad company to operate mines at a loss and use the returns that it got from some other source to keep the mines alive; for I believed to do that would be borrowing money from Peter to pay Paul, if we were to operate the mines at a loss and make the railroad company stand the loss. That I felt would be a very foolish and unwise and unbusiness thing to do. Now, the railroad has contracts with independent operators, and these con- tracts provide that in all cases the same freight rates must apply on coal shipped from these other companies' mines as apply on the coal shipped from the railway company's mines; and it is further provided that the car supply must be equally distributed; that there must be no favoritism shown in the matter of supplying cars to anyone; that all must be treated alike; and that has been our pohcy to develop our railway requirements and facilities to meet the demand for equipment, etc. Senator Clakk, of Montana. You say that the policy of your com- pany — the railway company — is not to favor any one shipper at the expense of another, and that if there is a car shortage, whatever supply there is available must be divided among the shippers equally? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; on the basis of production. In other words, take any given time; if a company produces 100 tons a day and requires 30 cars to handle that, and it can only get, say, 20 cars, a company producing 200 tons a day would get 40 cars, and the same in proportion. Of course, these cars can't be distributed daily, for they are not always available, but say for a month, or 774 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. any given time, the distribution of cars must be on the basis of production. The idea is to ehminate any idea of favoritism. Senator Clakk, of Montana. And does the railway company follow that rule in its dealings with its own company? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, su; it does. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do the coal mining companies ever make any complaints to the railway company about its failure to sup- ply cars? Mr. ScHOLZ. I understand they do. Senator Clakk, of Montana. Do the coal mines owned by the rail- way company, the operations of which you superintend and oversee — do these companies ever make any complaints to the railroad com- . pany that owns them about the failure to supply them with cars? Mr. ScHOLz. Indeed it does. I am continually in hot water on that subject. Senator Long. There is no favoritism shown you on account of your relation to the company? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Long. Then you can pity the position of the unfortunate operator ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; absolutely. He has my profound sympathy. Senator Long. Do you make complaints to yourself ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; I make complaints to Mr. Winchell. I make life considerable of a burden to him, I think, sometimes. Senator Long. So you go right straight to headquarters to make your complaints? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; I go to the fountain head. He is our presi- dent, and sometimes I make these complaints to him direct and other times I make them to the different operating officers. Senator Long. Well, does he listen to your complaints? Mr. SoHOLZ. He has to. Senator Long. Are your complaints followed by relief ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Not always. He does the very best he can, but the best is often bad enough. Now, gentlemen, right here I want to say that statements have been made before Congress, and they appear in the Congressional Record, to the effect that some railroad companies have discriminated against the independent mine owners or operators — that is, mines owned by other people; that these railroad companies have discriminated against them in favor of mines operated by these railroad companies, or in which they were interested, or in which the parties that controlled the raihoad were interested. Now, that state- ment in its general application is rather too broad, for I know that there are cases where it does not apply. I know that it does not apply in our case, and I think there would be no trouble in getting plenty of evidence to present to you from independent operators down here who would testify that they get just the same treatment that we get; that the railroad company gives these independent operators the same treatment, as far as rates and an equal distribution of cars is con- cerned, that it gives to its own mines. Senator Long. And there has been no favors shown to your com- pany in the way of furnishing it cars ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Long. Sure of it ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 775 Mr. SoHOLZ. Absolutely sure. Whenever there is a car famine I believe that I have always got the short end of it instead of the long end. I believe I have got me worst of it. The Chaieman. I suppose the cars are distributed on the basis of tonnage ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Absolutely. That is the basis arrived at each month. While a good many complaints are made, if they are made — and I have been assiu-ed that they are — nothing could be done, for it would not be policy to show any preference, and in fact it would be against the law to do so; so there are two reasons why it would not do, and, besides, it wouldn't be fair. It has been our aim to comply with the law in all respects, and, in fact, as far as the shipments of commercial coal are concerned, we don't have anything to do with that, but have placed it in the hands of the sales agency and left it there — that handles the output of other mines as well as ours — and we did that for the pur- pose of taking or removing the semblance of suspicion that favors were granted to our own nunes that were not granted to others. Q. How many or how large a portion of the operators in this dis- trict are in that arrangement by which they handle their product through the same agency? I suppose it might be objected to calling it a pool, but that is in effect what it is, is it not ? Mr. SoHOLZ. It is not a pool. The Chairman. Well, don't the various operators enter into an agreement or understanding with each other by which it is agreed among them by whom or in what manner their output shall be handled, and that it shall be handled by the same man, all of it, and this man apportions the orders for commercial coal as he sees fit among the various mines that enter into the arrangement on an equitable basis according to their output or ability to supply the demand? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is the way it is done? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; quite so; that is the way it is done. The Chairman. I wish you would explain it more in detail if it needs any more explanation as to the details. Mr. ScHOLz. Well, the way you have it is quite right. It is per- fectly accurate. The Chairman. Who is that sales agent? Mr. ScHOLz. The McAlester Fuel Company. Now, in order to tell you what brought about the formation of that company, the McAles- ter Fuel Company, it might be proper to say that the market condi- tions existing in this country are entirely unlike the conditions exist- ing in the other bituminous coal fields. Down here the principal portion of the coal that is sold is sold for commercial purposes in car- load lots, that is, each sale is usually for one carload. The absence of industries down here or in this locality that require a large amount of coal is, however, the cause of that. Comparing the condition down here with that existing in Illinois, for instance, we haven't any such points as Chicago or Indianapolis which require very large quantities of coal. Our only requirements, our only markets down here, are the railroad requirements and what is required for domestic consumption and a comparatively small number of industries that only consume small quantities. There are a few packing houses at Fort Worth and Dallas and a few small electric-light plants, but the major portion 776 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. of the coal produced here is consumed in or used for domestic pur- poses or for ginning cotton and thrashing wheat, and those demands are largely for lump coal, and the major portion of the coal is sold in carload lots — that is, in single carload lots. Now, I think I can safely say that without some such sort of an arrangement as we have here, namely, a sales agent, the cost of coal to the consumer would be very much greater than it is, because the cost of selling the coal would be very much greater. The very fact that the consumers are scattered over a large territory in itself entails a very great expense, such as the employment of men and their traveling expenses when traveling around from point to point selling the coal. All these things were considered, and it was with the purpose in view of cutting down these expenses and eliminating them altogether that the McAlester Fuel Company was organized and the business of selling this coal placed in its hands. I might state other reasons why this was done. The Chairman. Is that your selling agent ? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir. That is not the only company. There are other companies and individuals who act as selling agents for other companies who were obliged to do the same as we do for the purpose of cutting down their expenses incurred in selling their product. All these things have to be added on to the cost of produc- tion and the cost of production regulates to a large extent the cost to the consumer. I thmk it would be proper to draw your attention to the fact that the selling price of coal has not increased since the forma- tion of the sales company. On the other hand, having in mind the great increase in the cost of wages, the price of coal has decreased. In other words, we have not made the increase in the selling price of coal that we would be justified in making, having in consideration the wages that we were paying five years ago and the wages we are paying to-day. One of the greatest increases in cost that we were obliged to meet was the decrease in the working hours from nine to eight hours a day, or from nine and an eighth hours to eight hours. It increased our cost of operation from $2.25 for nine hours to $2.56 for eight hours. The Chairman. Do you pay $2.56 for eight hours work? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir; inside it was $2.56 and outside $2.30 — I think it is about $2.20 and something — well, let me see, I think $2.18 is the outside day rate now, and the mining rate has been increased from 60 cents a ton in 1902 to 72J cents a ton in 1903, and it remains at that figure now. Now these increases all around amount to about 17i per cent, so when you hear of a reported increase in cost you must of necessity bear in mind the increase in the cost of labor; and so I say the cost of production has increased more than the selling price of coal has increased. In addition to that we were obliged to change from paying for the lump coal mined to mine-run coal, and this in turn has largely increased the production of the fine coal, as the miners when paid on the mine-run basis are not as careful in getting out the coal as they are when paid on the basis of produc- tion of lump coal, and this increase in the slack or fine coal has in turn depreciated or decreased tTie selling price of the coal, or the selling value of all the coal produced. The Chairman. I don't think I understand that. Notwithstand- ing your change in the basis of mining, your selling price is still the same that it was before? FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 777 Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; I have reference to the prepared sizes of coal. The prices of that is the same as it was before when the scale was for lump coal. In other words before that change was made from the lump-coal basis to the mine-run basis, we paid the miners for the lump coal and did not pay them anything for the finer grades. In 1903, we adopted the miner-un basis and the result has been a very large increase in the fine coal produced. The Chairman. 'Well, would you say that change was very much to the advantage of the miner? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; I would say that it was — that the result has been to injure the (quality of the coal produced, and I can't see that it has helped the miner any. I think the result has been to stimulate the miner to get out as much coal as he possibly could without regard to the quality. The coal miner — that is the operator, likes to pro- duce lump coal. They all try to avoid as much as possible the pro- duction of slack and finer grades. The average price of slack coal is 86 cents mind you — that is all we can get for it on the average, yet miiid you it costs us $1.86 to produce it; but the miner gets his 72 cents for it all the same. It is immaterial to him whether he produces lump coal or not. The Ghaieman. Now what is your average selling price ? Did you say it was $1.77 a ton? What I want to get at is the average selling price of the coalyou produce ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, the best way to illustrate that to you is to show you some of our tickets — sales tickets in regard to that. For the fiscal year ending June 30, 1906, of our coal including other earnings such as rentals, commissions on powder, etc. was $2.21 a ton, and the cost of operation during the same period was $2,206 per ton. That was the average cost of production and the average selling price for the entire year, $2.21 a ton The Ghaieman. On that basis what would you consider the actual value of the coal land in that lease to be ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, anyone can figure that out for themselves. It would not be worth a great deal. We are hoping for better times, which may come and may not. It is proper to say, however, in this connection that the last two months or that year there was a suspen- sion of business practically during which time we paid out a total of about $15,000 in keeping the mines open, and paid the expenses of the superintendents and bosses, ana fed the mules and kept the mines pumped out. That was an extraordinary expenditure. That amounted in the aggregate to about $15,000. The Ghairman. Give these figures again? Mr. ScHOLZ. $2,211 and $2,206. Now, I should say further that our cost of operation includes an estimate of two cents per ton for depre- ciation, which we set aside to replace our mining machinery and plant. Otherwise than these there are no charges, no interest charges and no fictitious salaries. In fact our salary list and general expenses are just 2^ cents per ton. The Chairman. And are there any interest charges? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Long. What was that 2 cents per ton for? Mr. ScHOLZ. Two cents per ton on production for depreciation of machinery and plants. S. Eep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 50 „ - — 778 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. Now, I understood you to say that you transferred without compensation llj of your leases? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You did that absolutely without compensation? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; just gave them away. Senator Long. And you retained the other 18^ ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And the rest you are preparing to give away or get rid of before 1908? Is that correct? Mr. ScHOLZ. No policy has been adopted as to that, and our com- pany has formed no general plans. Senator Long. Excepting you say your company obeys the law and gives everybody a fair show? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; we try to. It is a tough proposition some- times, but we manage to do it. Senator Long. I believe there is a law that goes into effect in 1908 The Chairman. They may want to use these plants for the pro- duction of coal for themselves. They don't have to get rid of them. Senator Long. Certainly. Now, you have read this report to which frequent reference has been made here to-day — this report with reference to coal lands down here in the Indian Territory? Mr. ScHOLZ. Certainly. Senator Long. Now, I find on page 1 1 of that report Mr. ScHOLZ. May I have a copy of that report, and if you read anything out of it I can follow you? Senator Long. Certainly. Here is one. Senator Long. On page 1 1 of this report, in the letter of the director of the Geological Survey, he states in a paragraph toward the bottom of the letter, as follows: "The total available tonnage for the whole area"-^that means all the segregated coal lands — ^" would be approx- imately 2,954,138,000 tons. Considering the cost to the consumer to. be $2 per ton at the mines, as stated by Senator La FoUette, the total cost to the consumer, when all the coal in the segregated lands is mined out, will be $5,918,276,000," and on page 32 of the same report, Mr. Cameron, United States mine inspector, estimates that the aggregate tons of coal embraced in the leased and unleased lands Mr. ScHOLZ. Where is that ? Senator Long. Down toward the bottom of that page ; right about there [indicating point] — in the leased and unleased lands would be 1,252,916,000 tons Now, I will ask you what you have to say as to these two estimates of the quantity of coal on these lands and their values. What do you think as to their correctness, or have you any opinion on that question? Which of them do you think is correct, or what is your estimate, if you have made one ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; I have an estimate that I made when the pamphlets on the segregated coal lands were first published. Senator Long. Do you mean the report by the Geological Survey? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Well, what is it ? What is your estimate ? . Mr. ScHOLZ. I know Mr. Taff personallv, and he called at my office in Little Eock personally to see me, and he asked me what I knew about the condition of mining out here, and about this district gener- ally, and I frankly told him what my opinions were. I spoke as FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 779 frankly as I could, and did not reserve anything. One point that he specially asked me about was with reference to the depth that the mineral could be worked, and I told him then just as I have told you, that I thought 1,000 feet would be the greatest depth at which it would be practicable to mine the coal in this district, at least during this present generation — say, for the next forty or fifty years ahead. I also gave hun my opinion as to the average thickness of the veins of coal, based on the development work that had been done, the coal that had actually been mined, and on what the drill holes drilled had developed; and as far as the drill holes were concerned I had that in mind at the time, for my memory was comparatively fresh on the data that they showed up at that time. Senator Long. When was this that Mr. Taff called on you in your ofRce in Little Rock? Mr. ScHOLZ. This was in 1903. It was just about three years ago now. Without having the figures that Mr. Cameron has given in this statement here, I will not say what the total tonnage is; but I do know this, that what the actual amount of coal is that there is there is a problem that will not be solved until the Territory is actually opened up or developed. One thing is absolutely certain, that under any and all circumstances there is an immense quantity of coal, an immense tonnage, that will always remain in the ground and never will be mined, for the reason that it can never be reached in a profitable way. No one dare attempt to tell even approximately the tonnage of this field until it is drilled and developed and tested thoroughly. As it is, it Tias just been skimmed over, and no one knows anything very definite about it. I am of the opinion, however, knowing my limita- tions, that an estimate of about 3,500 tons per acre would be a very fair average over about 75 per cent of the segregated and leased lands. Now, I have not figured that out, but anyone can do it. It is a matter of only a few minutes to figure out how much that would involve. Senator Long. Do you mean the leased and unleased lands both? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; that is for the total, the whole thing. I don't pretend to be accurate. It is merely an offhand statement, and can't be called anything better than a guess, but that is what you asked me for, and I am makmg the best attempt I can at answering it. I don't ask this committee to accept it as anything of particular weight or value, for I have not prepared myself to answer a question of that kind. I have my ofBce data, which I think is accurate and was written by an unbiased party, and I wiU be glad to submit it at any time. Senator Long. Where is your office ? Mr. ScHOLZ. In Chicago now. I will be glad to give you an accu- rate estimate made on each 40-acre tract, for I spent some time on it, and I would prefer that you permit me to send that to you. I would prefer that you would accept this office report rather than the state- ment I have made here offhand, which is based on data that I secured three years ago, and which I remember somewhat indistinctly. I am frank to say that my memory on that is not what I would like it to be, so I would like to be permitted to withdraw the statement I have just given you and substitute one which I know is as accurate as anything can be, considering conditions. Senator Long. Well, this written statement you have already sub- mitted, that does not already contain it? 780 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. This statement pertains more exclusively to the territory adjacent to our leases. I would like to be concise ia my figures, and I would be glad to give you the facts as I have ascertained them accurately, without attempting to either exaggerate or depress them. Senator Teller. Are you able now to make an estimate of the value of these lands ? Mr. ScHOLZ. I will be very glad to give you my opinion of their value, but it will only be my opinion and you wiU have to take it for what it is worth. An opinion is, not knowledge, and my opinion may not be any better than the opinion of anyone else reasonably well posted in the coal business. However, I can give you the opinion and you can decide as to its value. Now, I will say that the determina- tion of the value of coal lands is a very difficult matter to decide. There are no two engiueers ahke and the methods of no two engineers wiU be alike. Every man has his own way of arriviag at his conclusions, and the only real thing of value we have to go on is the precedent of some mine that has been sold or some coal land that has been sold, taking into consideration the location of the mine or the land. Unfor- timately, in the Indian Territory that condition don't exist. The only thing we know positively is that we are paying 8 cents a ton royalty and are mining a certain number of tons each day, or that we are mining so many tons from each acre of grotmd. /That is really all we do know definitely, so in the absence of aU precedents we have nothing else to go on. We have no precedent to go on, excepting that we might compare this Territory to Kansas or Colorado or Illi- nois or Arkansas. Now, the selling price of coal lands in Arkansas ranges from $15 to $35, and I understand that as much as $40 has been paid for it. Senator Teller. Per acre ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. I understand that as high as $40 an acre has been paid for it. Now that coal in Arkansas compares favorably with ours, so far as it belongs to the same vein, although it is softer and more friable, although at the same time it costs less to produce that coal than our coal here. So much for the Arkansas coal field and its value. Now, in the Kansas coal field the selling price of coal lands in Chereokee and Crawford coimties, Kans., is — well, it ranges from $45 to $75 an acre, and as for the selling price of coal lands in Colorado, I don't know of any recent sales that have been made, but I will say that the Government lands have been taken up at the rate of $20 an acre, and where they have been near railroads or transportation facilities, they have changed hands at the rate of $30 to $35 per acre. Now, that land was underlaid with coal ranging from 5 to 7 feet thick, and the mines operating in that field are able to produce coal at the top at a cost of from 80 to 95 cents per ton. Now, in niinois the selling price of coal lands ranges from $10 to $150 per acre. The Chairman. At what price do coal lands sell for in Illinois ? Mr. ScHOLZ. At from $10 to $150 an acre. I have purchased coal lands in Illinois at both these figures. We have recently turned down an option which we held on a very large tract of coal land there at $11 an acre, and the coal vein was about 9 feet thick. The Chairman. Whereabouts was that located ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 781 Mr. SoHOLZ. That was in Montgomery County, 111. Senator Beandegee. Did you say you declined it? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Why did you decline it ? Mr. ScHOLZ. We did not want it. Senator Beandegee. Did you think it was too cheap ? Mr. ScHOLZ. That did not cut any figure. We did not want it. We have all the coal land now that we can utilize for a long time to come. Senator Beandegee. Was the coal dirty? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; it is perfectly clean. It is good coal. Senator Beandegee. What kind of coal is it? Mr. ScHOLZ. Bituminous. All the Illinois coal is bituminous. Senator Beandegee. Soft coal? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What do you mean by average thickness ? Mr. ScHOLZ. One vein. Senator Long. When you speak of such and such a thickness of coal, you mean just one vein? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You don't take two or three veins and add them together? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. In the cases of these lands I have been talk- ing about, and particularly in the case of this Montgomery County tract in Illinois, there was only one vien of coal so far as we now know, but there might be others. If there was we would get it all, for we buy all there is in the land. We only expected to mine that one vc in. Senator Long. And in the case of this Illinois land, what was the thickness of it? Mr. ScHOLZ. I said .9 feet, but that was a little error. It showed an average thickness of 8 feet 6 inches. Senator Beandegee. That was a good vein of coal? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. Well, why did you not buy it? Mr. ScHOLZ. We have as much coal land now as we can very well take care of. Senator Beandegee. You had all you wanted? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. Well, if it was such a good thing I would magine you would want to take it in, too? Mr. ScHOLZ. I don't know about that. There is such a thing as having too much of a good thing. The Chaieman. Was that coal land in the market for sale to any one that wanted to buy it ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Where was it located ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Six miles and a half from the C, D. and I. Road. That is the "Big Four" Road. Senator Long. And in Montgomery County, 111. ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. If you did not want any more coal land, what did you go there and prospect it for ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well at the time we took that option we did not know but what we would or might want it. 782 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Brandegee. Was that before the law was passed forbid- ding you to be interested in coal lands ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; long before that. Our options were returned on this land in December, 1905. Senator Teller. Do you mean to say that land is on the market now at $11 an acre? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. How deep is that vein from the surface ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Five hundred and sixty feet. Senator Teller. Is that in an extensive coal field ? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir; the Montgomery County coal field, I should say, embraces 60,000 acres. Senator Brandegee. Is there any trouble with it or about it that you know of? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. Th§ title to it is all right ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; everything is all right. I will give you the benefit of our investigations. It is all right. Land lying south of the Clover Leaf Railroad there in Illinois can be bought for $5 an acre with coal all under it, and that is in Illinois, too. Senator Long. You say there is no fixed rule, no hard and fast rule that can be invoked in attempting to value coal lands ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; it is all a question of demand and supply, like everything else in this world. Senator Long. That is what I thought, when the trusts will let the law work ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, that is the way it is in the coal business. Senator Long. What do you say of the rule of taking the amount of coal in a given area, and then multiply that by the average selling price per ton of the coal and taking the product of that as the value of the coal land? Mr. ScHOLZ. I don't think anything at all of it. Senator Long. You don't agree that that is the proper thing to be done? Mr. ScHOLZ. Certainly not. That is a most ridiculous proposition. Senator Long. You don't think, then, that that would oe an accu- rate method? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; I would not want it to be applied to me or any of my friends. Senator Long. I thought not. Senator Teller. Does your company mine coal in Illinois ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Where? Mr. ScHOLZ. At Cable and Sherrard. Senator Teller. What line of railroad is that on? Mr. SoHOLZ. The Rock Island. Senator Teller. What is coal land worth there? Mr. ScHOLZ. From $50 to $75 an acre. Senator Teller. Well, what right does that take or give ? Mr. ScHOLZ. The right to mine the coal out from under the land, and it protects us against any damages for subsidence of the surface. Senator Teller. But it leaves the surface to the owner with priv- ilege of cultivating it or making any use of it he sees fit ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 783 The Chairman. In buying coal land or securing coal lands, who ordinarily assumes the damages caused by subsidence ? Mr. ScHOLZ. The seller of the land always assumes that. That has always been the case in the lands I have handled. The Chairman. Then the man that buys the coal, or the company that buys the coal assumes no risk ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; the customary practice in making these deals is that the coal company agrees not to mine the coal out from under buildings erected at the time the deal is made; but any future build- ings that may be put up would be exempt from that clause. The Chairman. So the buildings on the land at the time the coal right is purchased, it is agreed that the company will not mine the coal out from under them, but there is no agreement of that nature with reference to the buildings subsequently erected 1 Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; if the owner of the land, the surface of the land, erects any buildings afterwards he does it at his own risk, and if the land subsides and the buildings are damaged or destroyed that are subsequently erected the coal company is exempt from the pay- ment of damages. Senator Brandegee. In giving the cost of production, why is it you don't charge interest on your plant? Is it because you think it is not a proper thing to charge ? Mr. ScHOLZ. We do provide for it. We think it is proper to pro- vide for it, and do provide for it. Senator Brandegee. How do you do it? Mr. ScHOLZ. We provide for it in a sinking fund. Senator Brandegee. You provide for it by a sinking fund? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. And that is for depreciation? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Well, why don't you charge interest on the cost of your plant ? Mr. ScHOLZ. We do. Senator Brandegee. Do you say you do or do not? Mr. ScHOLZ. We do. In our method of bookkeeping we do not. Senator Brandegee. Well, why don't you do it m the regular and customary maimer? It is a proper item of charge, you say; now, why don't you do it? Mr. ScHOLZ. The only reason I can give for that is that our com- pany acquired these properties. It acquired these Indian Territory properties along with the railroad, and the value of the two — that is, the relative value of the two — has never been segregated. Senator Clark, of Montana. But you do practically make provision for that by charging something against the coal mined as expenses, for depreciation? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, what do you write off in that way for depreciation? Mr. ScHOLZ. Two cents a ton. That is what it is in the Indian Territory, and 5 cents a ton in other fields where we don't have the railroad. Senator Brandegee. Well, if you could separate the value of your plant from your railroad expenses, according to your statement, I understand you to say that you would be operating at a loss ? 784 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. SoHOLZ. We did last year. Senator Brandegee. You mean that you operated at a loss last year? Mr. SoHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Well, you would be operating at a greater loss if you charged interest on the investment in the plant, or interest on what the plants cost ? That is true, is it not ? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir; we would. Senator Long. You operated at an actual loss during the last year ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; in this field we did. Senator Long. How was it the preceding year? Did you operate at a loss that year? Mr. ScHOLZ. I could not be positive now, but I think I have the^ figures right here. Here it is. The preceding year our operating expenses showed a gain of $18,286.91. The Chairman. Does that include your entire operations ia the Indian Territory? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Oh, that should be a loss instead of a gain. The heading should be a loss. Senator Long. So then that year you operated at a loss also? Mr. ScHOLz. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And how much was that loss? Mr. ScHOLZ. $18,286.91. The Chairman. That was for the year ending June 30, 1905? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, how was it the year before that? Mr. Scholz. That was a gain of $1,490.83. The Chairman. $1,490.83? Mr. SoHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. But you have no interest charged for invest- ment, and if you had that interest charged, it would show a loss for that year instead of a gain? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; that includes a charge for depreciation of about $6,000. Senator Long. Well, what was the result of your operations for the year ending June 30, 1904? Mr. ScHOLZ. I haven't the figures for that year. Senator Long. Do you remember whether it was a gain or a loss that year? Mr. ScHOLZ. I think there was a slight gain of $15,000 or $18,000 for the year. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are you trusting that the future will be more satisfactory in the way of profit showing than it has been in the past? Mr. ScHOLZ. I think so. We are hoping that there will be a change for the better. Senator Clark, of Montana. If there was not a change for the bet- ter, I suppose you would stop operations and buy your coal from some of these other gentlemen or companies who are producing it down here ? Mr. ScHOLZ. That would be a very strong inducement. We could hardly be expected to continue to operate our mines at a loss. I might say here that some of the mines had been leased and the leases had expired and the mines had been turned over to us, and were not in FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 785 as good condition for producing coal as they might have been, and we proceeded to put them in good condition, and that cost a good deal of money to put them in a paying condition. We have installed a good deal of machinery. Senator Clark, of Montana. What is the average depth at which your company is operating now? Mr. ScHOLZ. It is about 350 feet for all of the 6 mines on the aver- age. Some are more and some less, but that would be about the average. Senator Clark, of Montana. If your loss is so considerable working at that depth, it would be considerably more working at a depth of 600 or 700 or 800 feet, would it not? Mr. ScHOLZ. There would be, unless there is a corresponding increase in the selling price of coal. Senator Clark, of Montana. Does the coal gain in quality as you gain in depth? Mr. ScHOLZ. There is not much dijfference in quality. The coal may be dryer. It don't contain as much moisture as we go down on it. There might be a half per cent difference in moisture, but that don't cut much figure with the trade we supply. They don't consider that at all in the great majority of cases. I mean by that that they don't take as much cognizance of the intrinsic value of the coal as would be taken by large consumers like there is in Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, and other large, consuming centers. The Chairman. Mr. Scholz, I understand you to say that there is not sufficient cars supplied to meet the demands for transportation for coal mined either oy your company or the other mining com- panies down here ? Mr. Scholz. I believe that is the fact. It is the case with our com- pany. The Chairman. I ask that for the reason that the independent operators say that they are not able to get cars to supply within 40 per cent of the cars that are required to supply their trade. Mr. Scholz. Well, the question you ask T suppose appHes to this immediate date. Do you mean the conditions existing now, or throughout the year? The Chairman. Well, I suppose it refers to this time, or any time when there is a shortage of cars, and there usually is a shortage, they say, at this season of the year? Mi. Scholz. I don't think that all the mines are operating just now at more than 50 per cent of their actual capacity, and with the amount of orders available now, I expect that about one-half of the orders are being filled. The Chairman. Why is that? Mr. Scholz. Shortage of cars. The Chairman. That condition is brought about by a shortage of cars? Mr. Scholz. Yes, sir. Now, I don't know how long that condition will exist, or when we will be able to get a full quota of cars. The Chairman. Then the condition exists because of the shortage in the car supply? Mr. Scholz. Yes, sir; in other words the condition continues because we are not able to get the required number of cars. If we were able to get the requisite number of cars I don't know how long 786 FIVE, CrVILIZBD TBIBES. it would be before the mines would be able to fill all the orders received, nor do I know how long it will be before we can get the number of cars we require. I stated before that the market was very spasmodic during the months of April, May, and June. There is no certainty as to just what it will be. I might say, during March, April, May, and June, that is the condition. We have practically no business to amount to any thing, and during that time we have ample cars but no orders; but beginning with the middle of July and continuing up to the first of January we generally have more orders than we can get cars to fill, and consequently there is a shortage of cars, or, ia other words, a "car famine." The Chairman. I asked some gentleman who was before the com-, mittee and who made substantially the same statement that you have made, what was the cause or reason for this shortage, or what was the reason that the railway companies and other large consumers of coal did not make provision against this periodical shortage of cars by storing a supply of coal during the slack months when there was filenty of cars, against this shortage that occurred annually in the all and early winter months. Now, can you say any thing about that? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The railway company has made provision for the storage of coal, and has stored large quantities of it thatwas mined in this field. This year we had a suspension of mining opera- tions lasting from the 1st of April to the 15th of June The Chairman. A suspension in operations ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was that a strike ? Mr. SoHOLZ. Well, it was not exactly a strike, but it had the same efl^ect. It was a difference between the operators and the miners over the wage scale, and they just stopped work until it was settled, and that tied things up effectually. To all intents and purposes it was the same as a strike. It came around through the expiration by limitation of the wage agreement. Senator Long. Well, stating it in plain English, it was a strike? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; there is a decided difference. A strike is when the operator offers to pay a certain price and the operatives refuse to accept it, and quits work by agreement. That was not the condition we had here at all. Senator Long. Well, the men did not work? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Long. Well, that is a strike, you offered them so much and they refused to work for it ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; but that is not a strike. We have what is called a scale for mining all over the country, varying in different fields, and that runs for a year, or for any other stated time as agreed upon by the operators and the representatives of the labor unions or miners. When you get down to the bottom of it it was merely a suspension by mutual agreement pending the arrangement of a new agreement. It was due to the expiration of the old wage agreement before a new one had been agreed to, so it was not a strike as we looked on it, though we could not get any ijien to do any work. Senator Long. Well, it was practically a strike, for there is a dis- tinction without any difference in the way you put it ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIEES. 787 Mr. SoHOLZ. Well, I have told you the facts. As far as effect went it was practically the same thine as a strike. Senator Long. To put it diplomatically, it came very near being like one ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Long. It came so very near being a strike that it is difficult to draw a distinction except in a technical way ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Excepting in regard to the way it started. • Senator Clark, ot Montana. In storing coal, do you have any instances or cases of spontaneous combustion? Mr. ScHOLZ. We have had some small fires. Senator Claek, of Montana. They have been small ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; we have not had anjj serious ones. In storing coal we always make arrangement for fires. We try and avoid it in the way we store it. Senator Clark, of Montana. In what does that prevention consist ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, we always pile the coal in smaller piles ; we don't store it in large quantities, but pile it in piles that are small and sep- arated 10 or 15 feet apart, so if they get fire, or one of them does, we can put it out without endangering the others. If it is in a large pile we have a perforated pipe in the center with a hose connection, so that in case of fire we can attach a hose to it and drench the pile with water and put it out. If we were using all our output we could do it, but it has been our policy to divide our orders up among the smaller pro- ducers or the independent operators and so furnish them with work during the summer months or keep them going a part of the time. If we did not do that most of them would be idle and they could not hold their men together, so we give them orders and close our mines down during the same number of hours or days during the week, and by pursuing that policy the independent operators are induced to develop more mines. This coal traffic proposition down here is an important one for the railway. It is one of the chief sources of rev- enue, and the policy of the railway company is to promote and foster it in every way possible as a simple business proposition. Senator Clark, of Montana. Their policy is to encourage the inde- pendent operator? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; absolutely. The assignment of leases to them proves that. Senator Clark, of Montana. The railway company looks at it from a business standpoint ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Please explain to the Committee how that policy works out to the best interest of a railway company that owns and operates its own mines. Mr. ScHOLZ. It is a very simple proposition. The main purpose and object of that policy is to provide a large shipping tonnage. The main object and business of the Eock Island road down here and else- where is the transportation of freight for a fixed charge. That is the business that provides its revenues almost wholly, that and passenger business, and the mining of coal is merely an incident to that purpose. The mining of coal is merely incidental, and is a very small part of our business or our operations. These mines here were acquired along with the Choctaw road, and I don't think there is any doubt about the fact that the road would prefer on the whole that it did not have 788 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. them ; it would rather see them in the hands of some good independent operator. I think you will agree with me in view of the showing that the mines have made that that would be a good policy. Now you may ask why railways engage in the business of mining, and I will say in a general way, in a manner, railroads have been forced into the mining of coal in this section primarily for the purpose of furnishing themselves with a safe and certain supply of coal. That was the first consideration, and in the second place they were actuated by a desire to produce tonnage to keep their trains moving and produce revenue, and in the next place by developing a permanent and valuable supply of fuel encoura.ge the establishment, of industries which would in their turn furnish business for the roads. That is always the primary , object of a railway in a new country, or in any country, for that mat- ter, to establish such conditions as will encourage people to come into a country, and the establishment of industries, for without these things a railway can not do a profitable business. It has to have the tonnage to move and the people to travel on its passenger trains, and that it seeks to secure in every way possible. If a manufacturer pro- poses to establish a business in any locality, there are three pomts that he satisfies himself about before he will consider the question. The first is in regard to the raw material which he intends to use, its accessibility and its cost; the second is the labor supply, and the third the fuel supply. Now he may be able to find the raw material and the labor, but if he can't find the fuel he will have to seek a loca- tion elsewhere. Railroads have been the first to recognize these requirements, and the one thing they can do is to develop the supplies of fuel along their lines and so be able to attract to their lines indus- tries, by assuring them that they can get a regular and constant supply of fuel at a reasonable price ;^ and it is only natural that having these natural resources they should seek to encourage the industrial devel- opment of the country. Senator Brandegee. Well, how do you reconcile that statement of the desire of the railroad to develop the country industrially and in every other way with your statement that they don't furnish half enough cars to carry away the coal that could be produced. To my mind there seems to be a contradiction there that I would like you to explain ? Mr. ScHOLZ. I have stated that the equipment of the railroad is not sufficient to meet these maximum requirements. Senator Brandegee. Well, if the railroad is so anxious to develop the country, why don't it provide the equipment? Mr. ScHOLZ. There is not a railroad m the country that is not at times troubled with this very question of car shortages. You will read about it in the papers daily. It is something that is periodically, and the expansion of the country has been so enormous and so con- stant that it is simply impossible for the railroads to secure the equip- ment. The car builders and locomotive builders are in the same fix; they have more orders than they can fill. The Rock Island road has orders in for thousands upon thousands of cars and is ready to pay for them when delivered, but it can't get them. If it could get its orders filled for cars that are already in it would be able, I have no. doubt, to meet every demand that is made on it. Its troubles are the troubles of every road in the coal-carrying business in the country, and it arises largely out of the exigencies of the business. A great deal of FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 789 the coal produced in the country is for domestic consumption. The average householder will not lay in a supply for the winter, and ap- parently he forgets all about it until he feels the approach of winter, and then he wants it, and they all want it and want it right away and they can't get it, and so the orders come to the mines for coal and the mines can't fill them, frequently, even if they could get the cars. Now, I think that explains the situation, but if it does not I will be glad to answer any questions that may be asked. I will simply say m con- clusion that our company, the Kock Island system, has orders in now for $11,000,000 worth of equipment, but if they were to offer $50,- 000,000, for its immediate delivery they could not .get it, and that applies to engines as well as cars. Senator Bkandegee. That is a very good explanation and I think the committee appreciates it. I certainly do. Now, there is another thing I would like to know. Does this McAlester selling company sell the coal of the independent operators as well as the coal prodTuced by the railroads? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir ; it does. It will sell the coal of anybody who will give it the agency to do so. Senator Bkandegee. What sort of an agreement is there between the railroad, between the Rock Island Railroad Company and these independent operators, which defines what these independents are to do? Mr. ScHOLZ. The only agreement or arrangement that the railroad company has with any of the operators is in regard to the installation of tracks. Senator Bkandegee. Well, is there any written agreement between them? Mr. ScHOLZ. There is an agreement executed between them that the coal company will produce coal for shipment over its lines, just the same as there is a similar agreement between railways and coal com- panies anyvfhere, where there is a contract requiring the installation of tracks. Senator Bkandegee. Well, what is the nature of that agreement? Mr. ScHOLZ. It simply states in its terms the conditions under which the tracks are to be installed, and, in the case of the coal com- pany, where the tracks are put in for a coal company, it specified that that the coal company will produce coal and ship it over the road putting in the tracks, and the railway company for its part agrees that it will give the coal company the same rate of freight that it charges for hauling coal from mines that it operates itself, and that in the dis- tribution of cars, that said distribution of cars will be the same to the independent company as it is to the mines which the railroad company operates itself. In other words, the agreement practically recites and sets out the fact that there shall be no discrimination or favor- itism shown to anybody, and that no preference shall be given to any- body, and when cars are received each company shall receive the pro rata share or number to which it is entitled. Senator Bkandegee. Does that contract specify how any dispute that may arise shall be settled ? Mr. ScHOLZ. I don't think that it does. Senator Bkandegee. Do the independent operators of coal mines and the railway officials ever have meetings or come together when they will discuss the conditions of the market and of the trade? 790 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; the sales agents as well as the producers have meetings with the traffic managers or officials of the railroad and discuss the question of the territory into which they would like to have a rate that would enable them to compete and if they feel that they are entitled to a reduction into any territory they meet together and talk it over. I have had some experience along that line, and I can assure you that they don't have any hesitancy in ask- ing for a reduction. I don't recollect of any of us coal men ever asking for an increase in rates — we are usually trying to get them as low as we can. Senator Brandegee. Is there any understanding between the operators and the railway officials as to the times these meetings are to be held? In other words, is there any regular time for holding them? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. The railroad company's officers visit the territory at various intervals. There is no regular or fixed time set for these meetings at all. Senator Brandegee. The railway officials just drop around any time? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; unless there is a persistent and aggressive kick about something that is claimed to be wrong, and then they will make a special trip to investigate it. Frequently the matter is discussed by correspondence or some special agent — traveling freight agent or someone specially delegated — will look into it and report. Senator Brandegee. When the wrong will be righted? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir; if it is a wrong it will be righted; but I don't think that every complaint is about a wrong. Frequently the operators ask for something that they know they should not get, but they proceed on the theory to ask for enough, without the expecta- tion of getting it. If they ask and get half of it they are satisfied. Senator Brandegee. They proceed on the theory that half a loaf is better than no bread ? Mr. ScHOLZ. I suppose so. Senator Clark, of Montana. I understood you to say that it is difficult to store this coal in large quantities, on account of its deteriorating or its susceptibility to spontaneous combustion? Mr. ScHOLZ. Well, this coal will deteriorate by being stored in the open, but that is true of all soft coals — they will all slack more or less — but this coal is perhaps a little more susceptible to that con- dition than most other bituminous coals. Now, while I am on this subject I may say that both the railway company and the operators have made considerable effort to encourage the storage of coal by the consumers during the early summer months. The effort, however, did not meet with the response that we think it should have received. The Chairman. Well, is any effort made to store it at the mines? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Why not? Mr. Scholz. Well, it would not avail to store coal at the mines, because when we have the demand for the coal the car shortage will interfere with the transportation, so the question is one where the difficulty arises at the point of production and not at the point of consumption. Senator Clark, of Montana. Now, when the demand is falling off, or there is a shortage of cars, do the independent producers and FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 791 your railroad company representatives meet together and determine when and, if so, m what proportions and how production shall be restricted ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Clakk, of Montana. That is not the way it is done ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir; the railway company does not ask anyone to restrict production at aU. The railway company never asks any- one to restrict the production of coal. Is that what you mean? Perhaps I don't understand your question. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, I don't mean that the railway company directly tried to do it, but what I mean is this, would the representatives of the raUroad company and the miners — the pro- ducers — meet and talk over the situation frequently? Mr. ScHOLZ. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Now, if you all see and recognize that the demand for coal is falling off, do you meet together and map out a programme by which you shall all reduce your production by such or such a percentage, or reduce the hours of labor, or cut out a cer- tain portion of the mines, or lay off a certain number of the miners and make a reduction in the operations of all the companies alike — pro rata? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. That is a matter that is regulated by the ability of the company to sell its coal. There is no agreement made to restrict the output from any field. Every operator decides that for himself, and his output is only luxiited by his ability to sell his coal. As long as he can sell his coal he will keep his mine running, and when he can't he will reduce production to keep pace with the demand. Senator Clark, of Montana. But where the producing companies are all represented by a general sales or selling agent, how can any company that has placed its coal for sale in the hands of that sales agent do anything about selling its own coal ? Mr. ScHOLZ. It is not the agent for all of them. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, I think that is what you said; at any rate that is what I understood you to say. Mr. ScHOLZ. There are in this city two or three selling agencies or companies that sell the output of their own mines, and each one of them and each miner or producer sells all the coal he possibly can sell; but the matter of the policy of the sales agent or agents and the power and policy of making the price is what forms or makes the restriction. The Chairman. Well, is this, in brief, the situation? Under the relations which exist between the mining companies or operators and the selling agent here, there is no competition or restriction of pro- duction ? Mr. ScHOLZ. There could not be. The Chairman. Then, as a matter of course, there is not ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. How far can you ship coal out of here east or northeast of this place, or is there any competition from the mines lying off in that direction ? Mr. ScHOLZ. Northeast? Senator Clark, of Montana. Yes, sir. Or east along the lines of your road, say? 792 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. ScHOLZ. Little Rock is about the eastern boundary to which shipments can be made from this field. At Little Rock we meet the competition of the coal coming from the Birmingham district of Alabama. Senator Clark, of Montana. How far in the other direction can you ship it ? Mr. ScHOLZ. That would be to the west? Senator Clark, of Montana. Yes, sir; westward. Mr. ScHOLZ. WeU, we can ship as far as Texas on Rock Island points. Senator Clark, of Montana. Can you ship it as far as El Paso ? Mr. ScHOLZ. No, sir. Amarillo is about as far as it can be shipped, in that direction. That is on the main line. WeU, we can't compete with other coals as far west as El Paso. There might be a few stray cars sold there at intervals, but if there is the amount is so small as to be insignificant. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is the rate out of here a rate of so much per ton for distance, or is it just a flat rate to given points? Mr. ScHOLZ. WeU, the rates vary so nxuch that I am frank to say I am not up sufficiently on the rate proposition to say just what they are. I mean by that that I am not sufficiently posted on the rates to five you the figures. The tariffs are variable, and I would be glad to ring them in here and show you what they are, but I haven't them. Senator Clark, of Montana. They can be obtained here in the city, I suppose ? Mj. Scholz. Oh, yes. Senator Clark, of Montana. Coal takes a very low rate, don't it? Mr. ScHOLZ. Oh, yes, as compared with merchandise or manufac- tured products it does. Senator Clark, of Montana. What I wanted to get out of you was, about how large about is the extent of the market into which this coal can be sent? Of course, its value depends a great deal on that. Mr. Scholz. The markets available for coal on Rock Island rails is different from the markets available over Missouri, Kansas and Texas raUs, for the reason that each railroad reaches different points, except- ing, of course, a few coimnon points. UsuaUy coal produced on Rock Island raUs finds its market m Rock Island territory, and coal pro- duced on Missouri, Kansas and Texas raUs finds its market in Mis- souri, Kansas and Texas territory, and coal produced on the Midland VaUey road finds its market in the territory served by that road, but it is of smaU extent comparatively, and does not afford much of a market. Senator Clark, of Montana. And I suppose the rates to common points are the same on aU roads ? Mr. Scholz. Yes, sir. The rates are the same, irrespective of the distance by any road to the common point. [Later, through Senator Long, Mr. Scholz submitted the foUowing:] Bock Island Coal Company, Chicago, January 2, 1907. Hon. Chester I. Long, United States Senate, Washington, D. 0. Sir: After hearing the statements made before your Committee at South McAlester, and upon reading the pamphlet j)repared in the office of the Secretary of the Interior, covering the data furnished by Mine Inspector Cameron, I had a statement prepared, FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 793 which is hereto attached, marked "A," by Mr. J. H. Mitchell, who did our prospecting work in the Territory, under my direction, showing the workable, doubtful, and unworkable area of the unleased segregated coal lands. Before proceeding further, I desire to say that the information as furnished is given as an individual and not as an employee of a railway or coal company, and only for the purpose of defeating the erroneous and false reports which were made public last year by mdividuals as well as by members of Congress. I do not question the good judgment and intentions of the United States Geological Survey in segregating from allotment the 437,743 acres, believing that the Government should anticipate the wants of the country for many years to come. From the stand- point of an investor (it seems that the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations wish to dispose of these lands at once), the situation should be viewed differently, and it would be unwise to anticipate conditions for more than twenty or twenty-five years. From 1880 to 1906 this field has produced about 35,700,000 tons of coal^ all of which was taken from the 101,400 acres included in the leases. I estimate that about 65,000 acres of these leases now contain workable coal; the remainder either lies too deep, outside of the crop lines, or is known to contain faults; only about 9,300 acres have been actually mined out, yielding on an average of 3,900 tons per acre. The leased territory, therefore, contains 250,000,000 tons of coal yet to be mined. In the Secretary's pamphlet, facing page 36, is a sketch showing a block of coal land, the surface or top having the area of a single lease or tract. This sketch shows conditions which are ideal, but actually do not exist in any part of the Territory, other statements notwithstanding. In theWilburton field only the upper and lower Hartshorne veins can be mined in the same territory, but even there usually one vein is faulty, or inferior in quality. It must be remembered that the Hartshorne vein lies 1,200 feet below the McAlester seam; therefore, where the Hartshorne vein would be 1,200 feet deep or less no McAlester vein exists, and in my opinion it would barely be possible to mine coal at that depth or much below. Therefore, the area of only one seam, generally, can be counted as workable. The memoranda concerning the occurrence of coal, on pages 36 and 37, are, therefore, misleading, in so far as they apply to but a small portion of the field, and even then to conditions much less favorable than noted. The leases now in effect will expire between 1925 and 1930, and since they contain about 250,000,000 tons of available coal the leased territory can more than furnish the demand of the markets, even if the production should grow in keeping with the increase for the United States, which has been on a basis of doubling once every ten years. The attached blueprint, marked " B," shows in solid line the production from 1880 to 1906, and in broken line the anticipated increase, which in my opinion is very doubt- ful for that territory, having in mind the cheap production of coal in the surrounding fields, the oil and gas developments, and the utilization of lignite for producer gas and briqueting purposes. Granting, however, that the tonnage as shown in broken line can be produced, the returns at the rate of five cents per ton credited to interest account and three cents to depreciation would warrant an investment of between $5,000,000 and 16,000,000. There will, of course, be a considerable territory of unmined coal on hand at that time; in fact, nearly 30,000 acres of the leases should remain, in addi- tion to the entire unleased lands; but the investment of such a large amount of money, coupled with the hazard of mining, the periods of financial depression and panics, resulting in interruptions and, as before stated, the almost certain inability to produce this output would warrant generous returns. If these lands would be sold in small blocks, it is believed that from $20 to $40 an acre would be realized for perhaps 65,000 acres of the unleased lands. About 30,000 acres of the doubtful territory may bring from $7.50 to $12.50 per acre. The land which I have designated as now unworkable may have a prospective value of $3 per acre for the coal rights and, as a whole, I doubt if it can be sold at all. I have some hesitancy in expressing a value on the leased lands; but I believe the values range from about 135 to $50 an acre for the workable area, depending upon the location, quality of coal, and availability. About 25,000 acres of the leases are unworkable on account of depth and faults, and I doubt if $5 per acre can be realized, the invest- ment being entirely speculative. On this basis an aggregate of $5,500,000 is reached for the coal rights, the values being fixed according to the mining conditions, the com- petition of the coal, and character of the improvements required. About two years ago an estimate was prepared on the value of the surface of the segregated coal lands, aggregating $3,600,000, as shown by the attached statement. Setting aside 10 per cent of this acreage for mining purposes, it may be fair to assume that the enhancement in value would not disturb the aggregate, and the total value of the leased and unleased lands for the coal rights and the surface would be about $9,000,000. The average allotment of coal area for each mine is usually 800 acres; at $50 per acre this would represent an investment of $40,000; with a production of 40,000 tons per S. Rep. 5013, 5»-2, pt 1 51 794 PITE CIVILIZED TRIBES. annum from the date of investment until the mine is worked out, 5 cents set aside for interest fund •would capitalize an investment of $40,000 at' 5 per cent. The average production of the mines in the Indian Territory has only been about 30,000 tons per annum, as shown by the inspector's reports. The statement made by Senator La FoUette that the Indian Territory coal lands are worth 110,000 per acre is evidently based on the yield of 5,000 tons per acre from the. entire segregation, at a value of $2 per ton. The Senator is evidently not informed on the mining question, else he would have known that but a small fraction of the $2 repre- sents the profit to the operator and landowner and is made up mainly of wages and cost of material in the production of the coal. It may fairly be compared with the cost of any other manufactured article. For instance, steel rails sell for $29 a ton, though the cost of iron ore is only $1.10 per ton at the mines. Mr. Cameron's statement that the leased and unleased lands will yield in royalties, at the rate of 8 cents per ton, $100,233,000 should be noted carefully, otherwise it may be misunderstood as representing the value of the land . In the first place, his estimate on^ the tonnage is high, but even if it were correct it will require many decades to realize this money. The solution of the problem entrusted to your committee is indeed a difficult one, especially in the face of the contradictory statements which have been made. I desire to assure you, however, that I have endeavored to give you the facts fairly as they are and as the situation presents itself to me. I have heard the clamor of the Indians to have these lands sold at once and appreciate that my statement, valuing these lands at about $10,000,000, compared with Senator La Follette's $4,000,000,000 estimate will not aid you in solving this knotty question. As stated in my report handed to you at South McAlester, I am of the opinion that a continuancB of the present method of leas- ing lands will serve to yield the maximum returns to the nations; besides I don't believe that purchasers for all or a large enough portion of this land can be found at the . values above stated. Yours very truly, Carl Scholz, Mining engineer. "A." Estimate by J. H. Mitchell of the Workable, Doubtful, and Unworkable Segregated Coal Lands of the Choctaw Fields (Unleased). In making this statement I have had to assume that the outcrop lines as shown on Mr. Taf t's circulars are correct. I do not consider that the McAlester vein can be profitably worked at depths exceeding 1,200 feet. While the acreages were computed on this depth, yet I believe that 1,000 feet would come nearer being the maximum workable depth for this vein. Where the coal is at a heavy dip, I do not consider it profitable to work more than half a mile from the outcrop, even in more favorable places. The topography in some cases determines how far the vein may be worked. I do not see how the eastern portion of these Choctaw fields can be profitably worked at a greater depth than 800 feet in competition with the large bodies of this class of coal in Sebastian County, Ark., lying at shallow depths and railroad facilities. CIECDLAR NO. 1.— McALESTER DISTRICT, INCLUDING HARTSHOENE BASIN. Tracts 1, 2, and 3. Very steep and faulted along crop Tract 4. Valueless; thin coal and deep Tract 6; Parcel 1. About 20 acres of this workable Parcel 2. Valueless; too deep to Hn. vein behind Alderson outcrop Parcel 3. Same condition as parcel 2 Parcel 4. Of value only to surrounding leases Tract 6. Faulty and worthless Tract 7. Worthless; faulty and steep Tracts 8 to 13, inclusive. Secor vein very irregular; thin and inferior quality of coal Tract 14". If vein is in normal condition, which is not known, it lays entirely too deep Tract IS. Same condition as tract 14 Tracts 16 to 20, inclusive. Slow dip here. I think 8 forties could be reached. Tracts 21, 24, 25, 26, and 27. Southern portion of these tracts is too deep. Southern portion of tract 27 also too deep Tract 22. Worthless, owing to great depth Tract 23. Same as tract 22, except 8 forties Tract 28. Western portion too deep Tract 29. A narrow strip workable; heavy dip Workable. Unworkable. 120.00 20.00 '480.' 66' 320.00 1,320.00 400.00 640.00 369.30 2,712.60 399. 16 20.00 120.00 320.00 960.00 956.05 4,636.07 960.00 923.41 4,401.36 3,478.96 834.56 360.00 280.83 350.00 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 795 CIRCULAR NO. 1.— McALESTER DISTRICT, INCLUDING HARTSHORNE BASIN— Contiuued. Tracts 30 to 38. No value, owing to depth and pitch; mountainous Tracts 39 and 40. Unworkable for same reasons as 30 to 38 Tract 41. Almost perpendicular Tracts 42 and 43. Unworkable; heavy dip and deep Tracts 44 to 48, inclusive. No value; almost perpendicular Tracts 53 to 59, inclusive. Neither vein is known to be over 3 feet thick on these tracts and dip from 60 to 60. About 24 quarters on the Hartshorne vein can possibly be worked. About 30 quarters on the McAlester vein can be worked down 1,500 feet. On no portion of these tracts can both veins be worked Tracts 49, 50, 51, 52. Heavy dip and depth in unworkable column Tracts 60 to 63, inclusive. Coal thin and steep. Tract 61 faulted Tracts 64 to 70, inclusive. Twenty-seven quarters can possibly be worked by small operators. Remainder too deep Tracts 71 to 74, inclusive. Too deep Total. Workable. 3,160.00 460.00 160.00 2,160.00 520.00 40.00 1,080.00 120.00 11,369.30 Unworkable, 5,246.63 1,080.92 460.00 1,721.18 4, 498. 54 4,467.60 2,618.61 3,717.04 4,898.98 3, 659. 20 63,981.60 Average workable Average unworkable. 11,369.30 53,981.50 Total 66,350.80 CIRCULAR NO. 2.— WILBURTON DISTRICT." The McAlester vein is not to be considered in this district, as was shown by prospecting, be Isolated places where I will consider it. There may Workable. Unworkable. 1,579.18 600.00 Tracts. Unworkai^le; heavy dip . ... Tracts 4, 5, and 6. Mountainous country and depth to coal too great Tracts 7 and 8. Same conditions as in tracts 4, 5, and 6 80.00 2,752.62 1,844.16 Tracts9, 11, 13, 14 16,18. Unworkable; same conditions as in tracts 7 and 8 5,669.21 2, 830. 59 Tracts 10, 12, 15, 17, and 19. Under all that portion of these tracts that are more than one-half mile from outcrop depth is too great ... 1,840.00 Tracts 22, 23, 25, 26, 28, 29, 31. 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37. We are compelled to con- demn these tracts (McAlester vein) from results obtained five diamond drill holes .'. 12,328.66 Tracts 20, 21, 24, 27, 30, 39, 43, and 44. The depth is prohibitive on these tracts. In drill hole three-fourths mile from outcrop on tract 27 the Hartshorne vein was found faulted and worthless. At more than one- half mile along outcrop the coal is faulted In several places 1,760.00 680.00 5,613.03 Tracts 38, 40, 41, 42, 45, 45, 47, 48. Seventeen forties workable along outcrop. Balance too deep.. 6,878.92 Total 4,360.00 39,986.37 Acreage workable Acreage unworkable. 4,360.00 39,986.37 Total 44,346.37 CIRCULAR NO. 2.-STIGLER DISTRICT. Unworkable. Tracts 49 to 75, Inclusive. Too thin to be ot any value at all 25, 392. 45 Total unworkable 25,392.45 796 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. CIRCULAR NO. 3.— HOWE-POTEAU- DISTRICT, HOWE SHEET. Tract 1. Small patches of good coal Tracts 2 to 7, inclusive. Owing to the softness ol coal and number of faults found in this field and the nature of the surface, I do not think this could be worked profitably at a depth greater than 700 feet. Owing to faulted conditions shown by drill holes, slope, and crop workings, I would con- sider the greater portion of these tracts worthless Tracts 8, 9, and 10. Half of this is too deep Tracts 11, 12, and 13. Steep pitch. Northern portion too deep Tracts 14 to 17, inclusive. Steep pitch; same as 11, 12, and 13 Tracts 18 to 30, incluKlve. Southern portion of tracts 17, 18, and 22 are all that are in workable depth. An anticline extends from Hartford, Ark., to the Howe fields, covering tracts 20 to 40, inclusive. Drill hole near the center shows anticline not to reach nearer than 800 feet of the surface and the coal thin and faulted Tracts 31 to 40, Inclusive. Condemned from deep drill hole put down near Monroe Total. Workable. 2,000.00 1,352.00 920.00 1,400.00 440.00 6, 112. 00 Unworkable. 520. 00 3,680.66 1,352.78 1,953.08 2,423.24 11, 924. M 9,393.96 31,247.83 Acreage workable Acreage unworkable. 6,112.00 31,247.83 Total 37,359.83 CIRCULAR NO. 3.— HOWE-POTEAU DISTRICT POTEAU SHEET. Workable. Doubtful. Unworkable. Tracts 41 to 52, inclusive, and 66 to 70, inclusive. Owing to close proximity to railroad and slowness of dip, this Secor vein, while very irregular, running from practically nothing to 3 feet in thickness, some places banded and others not, some portions of tracts 44 to 70, inclusive, may be of some value. However, this can only be determined by prospecting. Considered of extremely doubtful value 2,000.00 1,920.00 13,732 86 4,402.76 Tracts 53 to 65 inclusive. Tract 66, 59, 62, and the greater portion ol 57 are absolutely worthless. I doubt if any of these tracts can be profitably worked inasmuch as they never have been 5,200.00 Total . - 5,200,00 3,920.00 18,135.62 Acreage workable 5, 200. 00 Acreage unworkable 18, 135. 62 Acreage doubtful 3, 920. 00 Total 27, 255. 62 CIRCULAR NO. 4.— McCURTAIN-MASSEY DISTRICT, McCURTAIN SHEET. Note.— 1 have never prospected all of this district; so my judgments are made largely by drill holes put down by other parties. Workable. Doubtful. Unworkable, Tracts 1 to 6. I have no knowledge of these, but consider them 6,738.55 466.09 Tract 7. Halt of this is doubtful 465.08 469.00 Tract 8. Half workable, half thin and unworkable 470.47 Tract 9. Drill hole shows 1 foot 10 inches coal iW.OO Tracts 10 to 22, Inclusive. Reports of drill holes put down by other people indicate workable coal. 1 have some doubts ow- ing to the dip of half of these being workable 12,069.91 Tracts 23 to 26, inclusive. Half doubtful, half unworkable 1,913.74 2,363.95 1,913.75 2,363.94 Tracts 32, 34, 36. Prospects by others show to be worthless . . . 2,608.13 Tracts 33 and 35. Twenty-one South forties unworkable 763. 33 840.00 Tract 37. Unworkable 822.12 Tracts 39 and 41. Doubtful 1,722.89 1,360.00 Tracts 38, 40, and 42. Half unworkable, half probably workable . . 1,360.00 Tracts 44 and 46. Said to be subject to overflow by Poteau River 1,853.32 Tracts 43 and 45. Crop half subject to overflow. North half doubtful 1,871.69 PIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 797 CIRCULAR NO. 4.— McCURTAIN-MASSEY DISTRICT, McCURTAIN SHEET— Continued. Workable. Doubtful. Unworkable. Tracts 47, 48, 49. Thirty-one South forties unworkable 1,660.00 Tracts 60 to 63, inclusive. Thin and faulted 3,771.04 5 882 27 Tracts 64 to 60, inclusive. 1 have no personal knowledge ot these tracts, but Ca.nieron condemns them Tracts 61 to 64, inclusive. Eighteen South forties unworkable.. . 3,068.65 720. 00 Tracts 66 to 79, inclusive. I have no special knowledge of these, but with what 1 do have would condemn them 14,184.24 Total 20,749.91 21,318.03 30,743.07 Acreage workable 20, 749. 91 Acreage unworkable • 30, 743. 07 Acreage doubtful 21, 318. 03 Total 72,811.01 CIRCULAR No. 4.— McCURTAIN-MASSEY DISTRICT, MASSEY SHEET. Workable. Doubtful. Unworkable. Tracts 80, 81, and 82. Outcrop on a mountain side. Has 3 feet of coal, with one and sometimes two partings. On the south side parting 6 inches thick. On north side two slate partings 1 inch to 6 inches thick 2,222.16 960.00 Tracts 83, 84, and 87. Twenty-four forties doubtful. 3 feet of coal without parting, but in some places 2 Inches to 4 inches 1,920.00 1,920.00 Total 1,920.00 3,182.15 1,920.00 Acreage workable 1, 920. 00 Acreage unworkable 1 , 920. 00 Acreage doubtful 3, 182. 16 Total. 7,022.15 Note.— Mr. Cameron has 7,982.15 acres for this, or 960 acres more than is given in Mr. Tail's circular. CIRCULAR NO. 5.— LEHIGH DISTRICT. Workable. Unworkable or doubtful. Tracts 1 to 19. The Atoka vein and that portion of the Lehigh vein overly- ing the south end of the tract which is numbered from 1 to 19. (See Cam- eron's note on this. My own observations and prospecting bear this out) LEHIGH VEIN. Tracts 20 to 25, inclusive. East part of this segregation is all too deep Tracts 29, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39. Southeast portion too deep 18,012.85 3,880.00 9,765.43 1,347.41 1,861.76 1,666.59 1,347.41 1,332.40 Tracts 30, 31, 32. Northwestern portion too deep Tracts 26, 27, 28. Faulty and deep in northwest 1,332.41 Tracts 40 to 45, inclusive. Faulty and worthless 16,137.25 Total 6,197.16 49,476.36 Acreage workable 6,197.16 Acreage unworkable 49, 475. 35 Total '55,672.51 798 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. CIRCULAR NO. 6.— ARDMORE DISTRICT. Lot No. 1. Worthless. Unworkable. 600.00 RECAPITULATION SHOWING ACREAGE WORKABLE, DOUBTFUL, AND UNWORKABLE IN THE UNLEASED SEGREGATED COAL LANDS OF THE CHOCTAW NATION. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. Circular No. 1, McAlester district 2, Wil burton district 2, Stigler district 3, Howe-Poteau district, Howe sheet 3, Howe-Poteau district, Poteau sheet 4, McCurtain-Massey district, McCurtain sheet., 4, McCurtain-Massey district, Massey sheet 5, Lehigh district 5, Ardmore district Total. Workable. 11,369.30 4,360.00 6,112.00 5,200.00 20,749.91 1,920.00 6,197.16 65,008.27 Doubtful. 3,920.00 21,318.03 3,182.15 28,420.18 Unworkable. 981.50 986.^7 392.^5 247.83 1?5. 62 743. 07 920.00 475. 35 600.00 251,482.19 Total workable 65,908.27 Total doubtful , 28,420.18 Total unworkable , 251,482.19 Total.... 336,810.64 "C." i Year. Investment. Income account. Profit. 1908 $6,000,000.00 6,913,000.00 6,816,493.93 6,711,214.60 6,697,162.01 6,474,336.16 6,342,737.05 6,202,364.68 6,053,219.05 Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Depreciation . Interest Proat S87,000.00 300,000.00 Earnings Loss $233,000.00 154,000.00 $164,000.00 Earnings Loss 387,000.00 387,000.00 1907 , 96,506.07 295, 650. 00 257,000.00 135,166.07 289, 156. 07 Earnings Loss 392,156.07 392, 156. 07 1908 . . ... 105,279.33 290, 824. 65 280,744.88 116,359.10 404,515.17 Earnings Loss 396,103.98 396,103.98 1909 114,052.59 285. 660. 73 304,140.24 95,473.08 499,988.26 Earnings Loss . . . 399,613.32 399,613.32 1910 122,825.85 279,858.10 327,535 60 75, 148. 35 575,136.60 Earnings 402,683.96 402, 683. 95 1911 131,599.11 273,716.81 350,930.96 54,384.96 629,521.66 Earnings 405,315.92 405,315.92 1912 . . 140,372.37 267,136.85 374, 326. 32 33,172,90 662,694.48 Earnings Loss 407,509.22 407,509.22 1913 149, 145. 63 260,118.23 397,721.68 11,642.18 674,236.64 Earnings 409,263.86 409,263.86 1914 167,918,89 262,660.95 10,537.20 421,117.04 663,699.44 421,117,04 421,117.04 'B.- Production of coal from Indian Territory fields. Tons ,g 90 1885 1890 1895 1900 1905 1910 1915 1920 19 55 Tons ■11.000.000 10.000.000 9.000.000 ■8.000.000 7.000.000 e. 000. 000 5.000.000 4.000.000 ■3.000,000 2.000.000 1.000,000 / ' ,' ,' ; ' ' 1 6 000 000- 1 5.000.0m- 4.000.000 3 00" noo 2.000.000 ' { / > f { . { 1 \ > / \ / -, 1 i / r 1 1 / -^ / \ / ^ -■ -■ / -' 18 80 1885 1890 1895 1900 1905 1910 1915 1920 1925 \ f Tonnage actually produced 1880 to 1906 = 35,700,000 tons. ■■? Tonnage to be produced in accordance with earning table attached, 1907 to 1925 = 135,300,000 tons. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1. (To face page 798.) FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. " C" — Continued. 799 Year. Investment. Income account. Profit. 1915 $4,895,300.16 4,728,608.01 4, 553, 142. 39 4,360,132.22 4,149,571.50 3,921,466.23 3,675,814.41 3,412,616.04 3,131,871,12 2,833,579.65 2,517,741.63 2,184,367.06 Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit Depreciation . Interest Profit $166,692.15 244, 705. 00 33,055.25 Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings Earnings $444,512.40 $030,044.19 444, 512. 40 444,512.40 1916 176, 465. 02 236, 430. 40 66,012.30 467,908.32 574,631.89 467,908.92 467,908.32 1917 193,012.17 227,657.11 94,029.84 614,699.12 t 480,602.05 514,099.12 514,099.12 1918 210, 568. 72 218,006.51 132, 924. 69 601,489.92 347,677.36 561, 489. 92 661,489.92 1919 228, 106. 27 207, 478. 68 172, 690. 87 008,280.72 174,980.49 608, 280. 72 608,280.72 1920 245, 051. 82 196, 073. 31 213,346.39 666,071.52 38,366.90 666,071.62 065,071.62 1921 263, 198. 37 183,790.72 264,873.23 701,802.32 293,239.13 701,862.32 701,862.32 1922 280,744.92 170, 630. 80 297, 277. 40 748,653.12 590,416.63 748,053.12 748,653.12 1923.. . 298,291.47 156, 593. 66 340,658.99 795,443.92 930,976.52 795, 443. 92 796, 443. 92 1924 315, 838. 02 141,678.98 384,717.72 842,234.72 1,315,693.24 842,234.72 842,234.72 1925.. . 333, 384. 57 .125,887.08 429,763.87 889,025.52 1,745,447.11 889,026.52 889,025.52 1926 350,931.12 109,217.80 476, 667. 34 936,816.32 936,810.32 2, 321, 114. 45 935, 816. 32 800 FIVE CIVlLIZiED TMBES. " C "—Continued. Year. Tonnage. 3 cents per ton. S cents per ton. 8 cents per ton. 1906 $2,924,427 3,216,869 3,509,311 3,801,763 4,094,195 4,386,637 4,679,079 4,971,521 5,263,963 5,656,405 5,848,864 6,433,739 7,018,624 7,603,509 8,188,394 8,773,279 9,358,164 9,943,049 10,527,934 11,112,819 11,697,704 $87,732.81 96,506.07 105,279.33 114,062.69 122,825.85 131,699.11 140,372.37 149,145.63 157,918.89 166,692.15 175,466.62 193,012.17 210,568.72 228, 106. 27 245,651.82 263,198.37 280,744.92 298,291.47 316,838.02 333,384.57 3.50,931.12 $146,221.35 160,843.46 175, 465. 66 190,087.66 204,709.76 219,331.86 233,953.95 248,576.05 263,198.15 277,820.25 292, 442. 70 321,686.96 350,931.20 380,175.45 409,419.70 438,663.95 467,908.20 497,152.45 526,396.70 655, 640. 95 684,885.20 $233,954.16 1907 257, 349. 52 1908 280, 744. 88 1909 304. 140. 24 1910 372,535.60 1911. 350, 930. 96 1912 374,326.32 1913 397,721.68 1914 421,117.04 1915 444,512.40 1916 467, 908. 32 19^17 614,699.12 1918 661,489.98 1919 :.. 608,280.72 1920 665,071.52 1921 701, 862. 32 1922 748,663.12 1923 795, 443. 92 1924 842,234.72 1925 889,025.52 935,816.32 Valuation of surface sf segregated coal lands in the Indian Territory. Acres. Price per acre. Total. 79,833 600 20,000 2,880 3,840 6,720 10,906 14,378 6,774 20, 160 11,620 13, 440 6,760 36,776 8,640 26,392 13,000 18,480 20,000 3,360 9,773 101,400 $8.00 8.00 3.00 15.00 10.00 5.00 6.00 10.00 8.00 4.00 5.00 10.00 9.00 8.00 3.00 12.00 14.00 6.00 10.00 3.00 4.00 10.00 $638,664 4,800 60,000 Do 43,200 Do 38,400 Do 33,600 Do 65,436 Lehigh 143,780 5o 46, 192 Do . . 80,640 Do 57,600 Howe-Poteau 134, 400 Do 51,840 Do 294,200 Do ... 25,920 Stigler 304,704 McAlester . 182,000 Do 110,880 Do 206,600 Do 10,080 Do 39,092 Leases 1,014,000 Total 433,291 3,586,028 The Chairman. Now the operators in this McAlester field have asked that any statement they desire to make may be deferred until this evening, and of course it is the desire of the committee to accom- modate itself to their desire or wish in that regard. Now, Judge Shepherd, if you are ready to present the matter of the surface of these segregated coal lands we can expedite matters by having you present it now, if you are ready. We understand that you have been selected to present the matter of the disposition of the surface of these lands for agricultural or other purposes, and if you are ready to do so now the cominittee will be glad to hear you. Coal production of the Indian Territory, 1880 to 1905. Rock Island Coal Company. 1903 3.517,388 TQNS 1880 1885 1890 1896 1900 1905 120,947 TONS 500,000 TONS 869^29 TONS 1,211,186 TONS 1.922,298 TONS 2,924,427 TONS S. Sep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1. (To face page 800.) No, 1, The coal industry nfihe IJniled Slatea. I'mduclion in 1903. Itot'k Isliinrl ComI C^nmpany, Chicago. PENNSYLVANIA ANTHRACITE 76,000,000 TONS PENNSYLVANIA BITUMINOUS 103,000.000 TONS ^tUNO;^,, 37,000 000 %: ^ *i<*< "'►* o ° S. Rep. 6013, 59-2, pt 1. (,To face page 800.) No. 2. The coal inditntry of the United States. Rock Island Coal Company, Chicago. CONSUMPTION IN TONS PER CAPITA. TONS 1903 1900 1890 1880 1870 1860 1850 3 a 1 1 4 2'A 3 3J^ 4 S,A MILLIONS. M 1 1 1 M 1 1 M M 1 \ 1 330 1 M M 1 1 1 1 1 300 \ \ 270 — 240 210 180 — 150 1840 1830 1 120 1 90 "ML 1 60 1 w. Wm 30 w. I M V /^^JH| ^ M ^ w i YEARS 18 30 18 40 18 50 18 60 18 70 1880 1890 1900 1903 1^^ PRODUCTION IN TONS ^^^ POPULATION S. Eep. 6013, 59-2, pt 1. (To face page 800.) No. 3. INCREASE IN PRODUCTION COMPARED WITH QROWTH OF POPULATION FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 801 STATEMENT OF HON. J. H. SHEPHERD, OF McALESTEB, IND. T. Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I can present it now as well as any other time. The Chairman. Well, you may proceed with your presentation of that matter. Mr. Shepherd. Mr. Chairman and Senators, the people in this segregated coal belt having in mind the approach of statehood, began some twelve months or more ago to consider the question of the segregated lands; and at the instance of the mayor of McAlester there was a convention called in this city, and a request was sent out to the other cities and towns and all occupants of farm lands; all occupants of segregated coal lands, whether leased or unleased, should meet at this city, and formulate their views as to the conditions under which they should be placed if the statehood bill should be passed and thrust upon them the conditions of state government. That convention met pursuant to that call and was attended by delegates, I believe I am safe in saying, from all the cities and towns and from all sections of this part of the Territory; and the questions which so vitally affect this Territory, which has so long been governed at long range from Washington by the Department of the Interior, were discussed. That convention was a history-making assemblage in the affairs of this Territory, for it discussed all the troubles and difficulties which we have labored under and which have acted as a drag on the forward andup- ward advance of the district, and its discussions were conducted in a maimer which showed that the people representing their constituents realized fully what an important step in the history of the Indian Territory was about to be taken. That convention appointed a com- mittee to draft a memorial to be presented to the Congress of the United States embodying the views of the people of this district as to the best methods and means for disposing of the surface of these coal lands in such a way as would result in the greatest advantage and benefit to the whole country as well as to the Indian owners of these lands. In addition to the representatives of the cities and towns who were present at that convention, there were representatives present from the people who lived on these lands as the tenants of the Indian owners or the improvements; and there were also citizens present from the towns and cities in the segregation who owned valuable and expensive improvements on these places The Chairman. McAlester is in the segregation, is it not ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. There were some 34 towns represented in that convention. The memorial was prepared and approved, and delegates were selected to present it to the House and Senate; but as it happened we did not get our arrangements completed so that we could get into action until after the bill had passed the House. In company with the representatives of the operators, the repre- sentative of the convention that was held here appeared before the Secretary of the Interior on the 11th day of last January and sub- mitted to him the plan which we thought — the plan which the com- bined experience of the business men in this segregated coal belt thought would be the best plan for disposing of these segregated coal lands — or rather, I should say, presented to him the plan which they thought would be best for disposing of the surface of these lands consistent with the different interests concerned and conserving the S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 52 802 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. rights of the Indians, who are the unquestioned and undisputed owners of the lands and all that they contain, and at the same time conserving the rights of the vast body of white people who are at present living on this land; the exact number of which can not be exactly stated, but which, according to the votes cast in the last election, can not be less than 200,000 in number The Chairman. Two hundred thousand people in this segregated belt? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; not less than that. We have no census of them, but the vote cast would indicate that population. We elected one quarter of all the delegates to the constitutional conven- tion from this segregated coal land. The Chairman. Do you mean to say that there are 200,000 of them ? Mr. Shepherd. I don't say how many of them there are, but I do say that the number will approximate 200,000 and there may be more. There is a world of people on these lands, gentlemen — far more than anyone thought. It is almost a kingdom in itself; nearly half a million acres, and there are farms and towns and hamlets scattered all over it Senator Teller. That is a whole lot of people ? Mr. Shepherd. Certainly it is and we are not trying to hide the fact Senator Teller. Nor are you attempting to exaggerate the fact. Mr. Shepherd. I am trying to state the facts as they are. Senator Teller. How did these people get there? Mr. Shepherd. In the same way that people get anywhere, just moved in. Senator Teller. Well I had no idea there was anything like that number there. Mr. Shepherd. I am under the impression that you did not, but they are there all the same. You travel around over this land as I have done in the last year and you will come to the conclusion that that estimate is not very far wide of the mark. Senator Teller. How many people are there in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations altogether ? Mr. Shepherd. Taking the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations together, while I won't be positive I have an idea that there are about 650,000 people. Senator Teller. In these two nations together you believe there are 650,000 people? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. What is the area of these two nations in square miles, if you know? Mr. Shepherd. I don't know; I haven't that data handy. Senator Long. The estimates have been that there are not that many people in the whole Indian Territory. Mr. Shepherd. We can't help that. We are aware of the fact of what the estimates have been of the population made by the outside world, but we people down here know that the estimates have been all false. We know that the general impression has been that Oklahoma was much larger, more populous than the Indian Territory, yet the vote in the recent election' shows that the Indian Territory is much more populous than is Oklahoma. The Indian Territory at the elec- tion cast a very much larger vote than Oklahoma did. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 803 Senator Long. What was the total vote at the election in the Indian Territory at the election? Mr. Shepherd. Well, sir; I can't tell you. The fact is that I have taken comparatively little interest in politics Senator Long. Well you know that it was greater than in Okla- homa ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I know that it was reported to be much greater but what it was exactly I don't know. Senator Long. I saw it so reported but I thought that probably the people turned out better here than they did in the Territory. That probably accounts for it. What do you think about it ? Mr. Shepherd. I don't think anything about it at all for it is con- ceded to be a fact that the nonvoters in the Indian Territory were greater than in Oklahoma. Senator Long. Why was that ? Mr. Shepherd. Because there was a large percentage of the Indians did not vote at all, and a great many of the white men did not vote. The Indians did not quite understand what it was all about and they were kind of disgruntled and so they said they would just leave it alone and they did so, and a great many white men could not be inter- ested in it and they didn't vote either. Senator Long. Well what is it makes you think that the people in Oklahoma turned out and voted better than they did here? Mr. Shepherd. Well I think so because the people in Oklahoma have been voting for nearly seventeen years, they have had regular elections and have been better drilled in the act of voting than here. Senator Long. You reason that out on the theory that the more a man votes or the of tener he votes, the better he likes it ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir, if you want to put it that way. -It becomes a habit with a fellow. Let me see — for sixteen years the people in Oklahoma have been voting regularly, and in the Indian Territory they have not. Now to proceed. That memorial was presented first to the Secre- tary of the Interior, for we proceeded on the theory that it was right and proper that it should be. Before this was done, how- ever, at a meeting of the coal operators with the Secretary of the Interior, at which meeting I was present at the request and instance of the operators, and also at that meeting the memorial prepared by the convention was presented to the Secretary. Now recollect I was present at every conference that was had with him, and after this memorial was presented to him and he had read it and consid- ered it, it received his full and unqualified approval, and then I pre- sented it to the chairman of your Senate committee, of which Senator Clapp of Minnesota is chairman; and that memorial was taken up and thoroughly discussed before your committee. I don't know of a single hearing that was had before any of the Senate committees at your last session where there was cs much interest and impor- tance attached to the hearings cs there was to the hearings on this matter before your committee on Indian Affairs. I don't believe there was ever a hearing that held the attention of the members to such an extent as did this hearing. They all seemed to realize that his was a most vexing, complicated, f.nd troublesome question, one to the most complicated and troublesome questions that was before the Senate, so they gave it unusual attention, and after a hearing 804 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. that lasted from January 22 to February 23, Senator Clapp reported to the Senate the house bill with several amendments. Now those amendments I have right here, for they came recently from the Department of the Interior, and by reading this amendment pro- posed by your committee, and I believe aU the Senators present were members of that conunittee, you will see that this memorial contains the views of the great body of the business people inter- ested, as well as many of the Indians, because in company with myself. Dr. E. N. Wright, who is a highly educated Indian, was also delegated by the convention of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians, which convention was held at Lehigh, to proceed to Washington as their delegate and present at the same time that we did the views of the Indians themselves on this subject, which he did; and they indorsed the memorial which we presented. Now the amendment is found on page 16 of the House resolution 5976, as reported by Mr. Clapp, with amendments on February 23, 1906. The section as it passed the house in reference to coal and asphalt lands was in this form : Sec. 13. That all coal and asphalt lands whether leased or unleased shall be reserved for sale under this act until the existing leases for coal and asphalt lands shall have expired. And the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to lease the residue of the unleased coal and asphalt lands for mining purposes under rules and regulations to be prescribed by him, such additional leases to be limited in time so as to expire not later than the now existing leases, and the royalties to be collected and applied by the Secretary of the Interior in the same manner as the royalties under existing leases. Now that was the bill as it passed the house with reference to the coal and asphalt lands. The following is the amendment Senator Clark. What time would it be for the expiration of all of them? Mr. Shepherd. They range in point of duration at different periods up to twenty-five years. It would be about twenty-five years, for they were embraced in the agreement before the act of 1902. Now here is the Senate amendment: That the value of the segregated coal and asphalt lands of the Choctaw and Chicka- saw nations, whether leased or unleased, shall be ascertained under such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior and approved by the President, by a board of three appraisers to be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, subject to the approval of the President of the United States. Said appraiser shall return to the Secretary of the Interior a report sworn to by them, showing the value of the lands embraced within said segregations. And in making said appraisal, the surface and mineral rights thereon shall be separately ascertained and returned. And all such appraisals shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. The Secretary of the Interior, under rules and regulations to be approved by the President of the United States, may sell the surface of said segregated lands after six months' notice of said sale, in tracts of not more than one hundred and sixty acres to each purchaser, but at not less than the appraised values. Such land shall be sold on such terms as may be fixed by regulations as above provided for, but all such lands as are unleased at the date of the approval of this act shall be sold subject to the right of any purchasers of the mineral right to mine thereunder, together with the right of ingress and egress and with immunity from damages occasioned by subsidence, and to the right of said mineral owner to acquire a sufficient amount of the surface, not exceeding twenty per centum of the said surface area, for the necessary surface works and operation of said mine, the FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 805 value of said surface area for said mining purposes to be fixed by agreement between the parties in interest, or in case of disagreement said price to be fixed by three persons, one of whom shall be chosen by the owner of the surface, one by the owner of the mineral right, and the third by the two so chosen, and if they do not agree as to a third, then such third appraiser to be appointed by the judge of the United States court for the district in which such land is situated, and a decision of a majority of the three shall be conclusive as to the value thereof. And all conveyances of the surface of said lands shall contain said reservation of said mineral rights as above set forth. As to the sale of the surface of leased lands, the same shall be sold subject to the rights of such lessees to mine thereunder, together with the right of mgress and egress and with immunity from damage occasioned by subsidence, and to the right of said mineral owner to acquire sufficient amount of the surface, not exceeding twenty per centum of the said surface area thereof, for the necessary surface work and operation of said mines, the value of said surface area for said miaing purposes to be fixed by agreement between the parties in interest, or in case of disagreement said price to be fixed by three persons, one of whom shall be chosen by the owner of the surface, one by the owner of the mineral rights, and the third by the two so chosen, and if they do not agree as to a third, then such third appraiser to be appointed by the judge of the United States court for the district in which such land is situated, and the decision of a majority of said three shall be conclusive as to the value thereof; and also subject to any rights covered by such leases, and such rights as are granted to lessees under the provisions of an act of Congress enti- tled, "An act makiag appropriations for the current and contingent expenses of the Indian Department and for fulfilling treaty stipula- tions with various Indian tribes, for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1905, and for other purposes," approved April 21, 1904. All con- veyances of the surface of said lands shall contain said reservations of said mineral rights as above set forth. After said appraisals as aforesaid, but not prior to March 4, 1907, the Secretary of the Interior, subject to the approval of the President, may sell the whole or any part of the coal and asphalt in and under said segregated lands, for the best price obtainable, by public sale, sealed bids, or otherwise, at not less than the appraised value, together with the right to mine the same. The title to all buildings and improvements placed on the leased premises by the lessees shall pass to the purchaser of the mineral rights, subject to the terms of the lease. All expenses, inclusive of necessary clerical assistance in the Department of the Interior, connected with and incident to such sales, shall be paid from the funds of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes on deposit in the Treasury of the United States. All conveyances made under the provisions of this section shall be executed, recorded, and delivered in like manner and with like effect as herein provided for other conveyances. But the purchaser of any mineral right shall not, without the les- see, change the royalty under said leases, or any of them, from the royalty at the date of sale as then fixed by the Secretary of the Interior. Subject to the foregoing provisions of this section, the Secretary of the Interior, upon the recommendation of the Commissioner to the 806 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Five Civilized Tribes, is authorized to set apart for townsite purposes such tracts of lands within said segregation as may in his judgment be necessary to protect communities of persons residing upon said segregated lands, and to cause the same to be surveyed, platted, appraised, and sold under such rules and regulations as he may pre- scribe, but the setting aside of any such townsite and the sale of lots therein shall not convey nor in any manner affect the title to the coal and asphalt deposits in or under the lands included therein; Provided, That the exemption from damages for subsidence herein provided shall not apply to tracts of land within townsites created or located on mineral lands prior to the lease of such m^ineral lands. Now that is the whole of the section that was amended and this amendment was, I think, reported unanimously by the Committee to the Senate, and of course was stricken out, later on, after a debate in the Senate with which you gentlemen are familiar. So much for that. Now, again, in October, this last month, there was another conven- tion called at which there was a full representation of all the towns and occupants and the various interests and persons who were and are interested in the final disposition of these segregated coal lands and asphalt lands, and that was open to everybody, for everybody and anybody could come before it and present his views and his evi- dence to support them; there was no limitations on that at all. Senator Clark, of Montana. Where was that held 1 Mr. Shepherd. Here at McAlester. Everything was Avide open, and after extensive discussion and consideration the convention again adopted that same memorial, and a committee was again appointed, a committee to gather such information and data as could be secured regarding these segregated lands and their value for agricultural pur- poses, and information as to the number of persons living on the lands, and the improvements on the lands, etc. ; and also to again ask Con- gress to enact this into a law, and to ask that instead of the words may sell" the words "shall sell" be inserted in the act; and further to try and satisfy Congress that the people of this country are intensely interested in this question, and that no one be allowed to speculate in these lands, and with that end in view they have asked that Con- gress put these words in the act, that "the ^and be sold only to actual settlers and no one person be allowed to get more than 160 acres of it." Now this memorial was indorsed by the unanimous vote of the convention, and it has also received the indorsement of every com- mercial club in this Territory, and they have asked that it likewise be presented to this committee. Now, we desire to eliminate from the minds of the committee any idea that may have presented itself or found lodgment that there is any one in this country who desires to speculate in these lands, for it might be inferred that such was the case when we ask to have inserted in the act the words that ' ' no one be allowed to purchase more than 160 acres of these lands." We do not wish the committee to fancy that we are personally interested in this matter; but we make this request for many reasons, not only for the good of the white people, but also for the good of the Indian citizens. We do not wish that any one thing be done that would favor one at the expense of the other. We reahze that both are here — the Indian and the white man — and that they will for all the future have to live side by side as neigh- bors whose interests are identical. Therefore, we say that we don't riVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 807 want one single thing done that can even squint at favoritism. The future welfare of this country is the thing that we seek first, last, and all the time, and we know how very easy it is to implant the seeds of distrust and dissatisfaction in the minds of men, and when once implanted we know how fast they grow and how hard to uproot ; so we say that all we want is a fair even-handed deal that will treat everybody interested without fear or favor. Therefore, I say that we make this request with reference to the restrictions on the persons to whom sold and the quantity sold be inserted in any act that may be passed, and we make that request in the interest of the white man as well as the Indian, and equally in the interest of the Indian as well as the white man. Many of these Indian citizens were in that conven- tion; many of them are in the towns — their towns as well as ours — many of them are in business in these towns and are just as much interested in the welfare of the future of this country from an agricul- tural standpoint as any white man can be, and they will be interested with us in the upbuilding and development of this grand new State we are" going to establish down here. Now, if this segregated land down here should remain in its present condition- -if it should remain unsold — if nothing is done with these 111,000 acres of leased lands down here and all these 336,000 acres of unleased lands, these 111,000 acres being, as has been well said here, the cream of the coal lands in this section, if all this land is kept off the market and in its present condition and these improvements that have been appraised are paid for and the people who are now merely keeping watch and ward over the improvements are forced to vacate the premises, then I say that on all this vast domain there will be nothing; only the little towns that are around the coal-mining points as now established, or may hereafter be opened up, and over all this magnifi- cent tract of fertile agricultural land there will be miles and miles between these points that will be absolutely tenantless and as wild as it was the day Columbus discovered America; or, if perchance people are allowed to enter and squat on the land, as it were, or hold it oy lease for agricultural purposes, it will not aid much, for here again we will be confronted with the problem of maintaining schools and making public improvements with all these miles and miles of land that are untaxable. I say such a proposition is unthinkable in this age and generation. Think of the condition, gentlemen! Here is the county of McAlester. Why, if this condition is permitted to remain, the county of McAlester will have hardly a thousand acres of land that will be tax- able for county and State purposes. That is a fact. There will be scarcely a thousand acres from which a revenue can be derived for county government. Senator Claek, of Montana. If the sale of land to any one individual be limited to 160 acres — you mean that is of the surface of the coal lands? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; that is for the surface only. I desire to say to the Committee that we have not taken any action or proffered any advice with reference to the sale of the mineral. We are pretty presumptuous, I expect, but we did not presume that far. That is a subject that we believe will be taken care of in good shape. We are vitally interested in this question of the disposition of the surface of these segregated coal lands and asphalt lands, and that is why we are bending all our energies to the straightening them out. We are deal- 808 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. ing entirely with the question of the disposition of the surface of these segregated coal lands. Now we have two classes of persons on these lands, as was said by Mr. Wright, the inspector, this morning — one is the person who is there as the tenant or lessee of the owner of the improvements, who is an Indian. The Indian is the person who owns the fences and the buildings and other improvements, and he rents them to the tenant, who is usually a white man. The Indians are not there; they have taken their allotments elsewhere, and that is where they usually are. Of course a great many of the Indians are there yet. They have not removed to their allotments. A great many of them were born on these lands, and where an Indian is born, pretty much like a white man, he retains a warm attachment for the place of his birth. They may not display it, but there is a great deal of sentiment in an Indian after all. They are not at all the stoics they areusually represented to be ; but, as I say, many of these Indians are still on the lands and they have their tenants there, and they get rents from these tenants. All this is merely temporary. No man knows how long he will be permitted to remain. He can not make improvements ; if he does, he forfeits them. He may be dispossessed in a month. He can't make a contract for over a year, and even that is not legal. Now it is hardly necessary for me to say that that is not calculated to produce a healthy condition in any community. No one is inter- ested in improving property. The tenant is not, for he don't know how long he will be there. The owner won't make any more improve- ments, for he knows if he does he forfeits them. Now I repeat that is not a healthy condition. No community can prosper under these conditions. The wonder of it all is that there has been any real prog- ress. There is hardly a people on the face of the earth who would have risen superior to such conditions and accomplished what has been accomplished. I appeal to this city as a living demonstration of that fact, and a monument to the faith of the men who have evidenced their faith and confidence in the future of this district by erecting the buildings that we have here. This building in which we are now, and where this committe is holding its session, would grace any city any- where, and it is the outgrowth of the faith that the people here have in the future of this place. Such a people are not easily cast down, nor can they be long depressed by any misfortune, and though the clouds may lower, we feel confident of the fact that ultimately we will get a square deal. If we did not we would hardly be doing what we are. Arid so it is that there is an absolute bar just now interposed to all progress, for all these people living on this segregated land are under the impression that they will be ejected from their homes in a short time. The Chairman. Has there been any ejectments? Mr. Shepherd. I don't know. I understand not. I don't think there has been. We have been very careful in our discussions to say nothing about this matter of ejectments, for we don't think it should be done. I noticed this morning in his remarks that Inspector Wright said that he thought it would be the better plan to let these people stay where they were until this matter paying for the condemned improvements was settled, and that he favored selling the land to the tenants or occupants of it in every case where it was practicable, but our convention in its resolutions has not asked for anything of the FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 809 kind. While we would probably be in favor of doing that very thing, if we could see the way clear to doing it, yet we did not ask for any- thing of the kind, because we realized that this land was the land of the Indians, and when sold we felt that the Indians were entitled to get as much out of it as possible. If the Choctaw and Chickasaw occupant is to buy it, however, then he has no right to the improve- ments. The improvements ought to be sold with the land, and the value of them ascertained and paid for just the same as if the land was unimproved — in other words, the land we believe should be sold for what it is worth in the market plus the improvements, if improved. Now, I come to the second question, and that is on the question of these leased lands. There are possibly 12,000 or 15,000 persons The Chairman. Now pardon me if I interrupt you right there. Mr. Shepherd. All right, sir, I am glad of the opportunity to answer any question I can. The Chairman. Now in regard to these lands, are, do these leases carry with them siorface rights or do they only carry the mineral right? Mr. Shepherd. Only the mineral rights, and as much of the siu-f ace as is absolutely needed on which to conduct operations. The Chairman. Then the lessee has no claim to the surface. It only extends to the mineral beneath the surface, and such of the sur- face as they may need to carry on their mining operations ? Mr. Shepherd. That is all. The operators will present their side before you. They are here present. Indeed their case was presented by Mr. Scholz, and I presume others will address you on that subject. They are able to present their own case. I am not here representing them. Col. WiUiam Busby is here, and he represents about 92 per cent of the operators, and I will state that they are in hearty agree- ment with us in asking that this disposition be made of the surface of these segregated lands. Now there has been a condition or case of this kind occurred here. There are two gentlemen present, one of whom has lived on one of these leases for twenty-eight years. He owns a two-story residence and has an orchard and other valuable improvements and has raised and cared for a family on the land . This is one case, and there is another old gentleman who is on the Sanbois lease. He has been there sixteen years, and he has valuable improvements, and he has no legal rights at all, yet he has been there all these years; both of them have made these improvements and now stand to lose them. These instances could be multiplied indefinitely, and many of these people were on these lands before the coal companies secured leases or began opera- tions. Yet some people have told me these men were squatters — men who came and put the fruit of their labor and industry in valuable improvements. Call them squatters? Well, it would be a glorious thmg if the country was full of just such people. These people canie here and received permission, some from the operators and some from the Indian occupant, and many of them have paid for the privilege of living there. One gentleman here tells me that he paid 42 cents a month for the privilege of living in the Choctaw Nation while he worked in the coal mines, and that afterwards he paid 22 cents a month. That money was paid into the office of the superintendent of mines and by them paid over to the Indian government or collector. Now, on the other hand, while the Indian occupant was entitled to an 810 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBg. allotment^but while on that subject, I'll say that I have here with me some of the receipts for this tax that was paid to the Indians for the privilege of living in the Choctaw Nation, and I will file them with the committee mth no purpose other than to meet the charge that these people are squatters and were there in violation of the law and there- fore are not entitled to any consideration. People who were there under these circumstances and who paid a tax regularly to the Indian authorities can not very well be denomi- nated squatters, and I submit that under the circumstances these people are entitled to consideration. It would be a glaring injustice to say that these people are not entitled to consideration who have been there in good faith and during all these years have paid a regular tax for the privilege of being there and doing business. Now if there is any doubt about that fact here are some ot the receipts, which will be sufiicient, I trust, to convince you that they were there by author- ity and are entitled to consideration [handing same to Chaimian]. Now these people during all these years have had taxation without representation and were wilhng to pay their taxes and live in their own house rather than live in the company houses. Senator Teller. This receipt does not show what it was for. Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; but that is what it was for. Senator Teller. Well, what was it for? Mr. Shepherd. It was paid for the privilege of transacting busi- ness on this property — for the privilege of entering into business there. Senator Long. It was for permitting them to do business, but not for residing there? Mr. Shepherd. For both, for they were in the houses at the time this tax was assessed. Senator Long. Well, was this tax levied to authorize them to do business, or was it merely for residing on the land? Mr. Shepherd. It was for doing business and residing on the land both. Senator Long. It covered both privileges ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Do you mean farming, when you speak of doing business ? ^ Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; conducting stores. Senator Long. Well, if it was farming they were doing, what did they pay? Mr. Shepherd. Well, if they were farming they paid for an agri- cultural permit, and that cost $5 a year. Senator Long. To whom did they pay that? Mr. Shepherd. To the nation. It was, strictly speaking, an occu- pation tax that they paid. Senator Teller. Is this for a month? Mr. Shepherd. This is for a quarter — three months — I think. Senator Teller. This is $3.57 a quarter? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; that was what it was then, but that tax has been abolished. I think the last taxation of that kind ended in 1905. Now, gentlemen, around these various mining points there has grown up pretty good sized towns. I think Busby numbered 5,093 heads of families, and they have two schools and three churches, and FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 811 they have all the conveniences of an ordinary town, yet the whole thing is iti this segregated territory. The Chairman. Ajad yet they are not incorporated ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; for the reason that the United States court declined to incorporate any towns on the segregation. There has been some applications made since that time The Chairman. There have been some incorporated by act of Congress ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; not on the leased lands. The Chairman. But you say there are some towns on the leased lands? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sn. Not incorporated though. The Chairman. Well, on the segregated lands? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; under the town site act and agreement with the nation of 1902. Now under the town site act the persons living in towns anywhere in the Indian Territory, or according to the treaty or act of Congress, the towns that applied are laid off, and the persons occupying business houses and who build them are allowed to purchase the lots on which their business houses are built at 62 J per cent of the appraisement. They were also permitted to purchase a residence lot at 50 per cent of the appraisement — I think these are about the figures — in both the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and the Congress of the United States thought these people had an equi- table right to do so, for they had come here and had improved the con- ditions and in that manner had raised the value of lands; therefore Congress considered it right and proper that they be allowed to pur- chase the lots on which they had built their business houses and homes at these figures. The Chairman. I understand this to be the situation in regard to McAlester, for instance? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That when the town site was finally got into operation a large portion of the town site lots were sold, and that there still remamed some lots unsold the title to which was stUl in the Government ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And at the present time, as the law is administered by the Department of the Interior, is that true ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; that is not true. All the remaining lots on which there were any improvements and on which no one had any claim or made no claim were sold at public auction. The Chairman. They were not all sold, were they? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; all excepting the ones upon which there were no bids, that were up to or above the appraisement. I think that every lot in McAlester was sold, however. Mr. Wright. In these various towns under the terms of the agree- ment there were a number of lots reserved for the use of the coal operators which were vacant and which the operators under the terms of the agreement expressed a desire to have reserved for them for mining purposes or for miners' houses in the operation of their mines in the future. Many of these lots were vacant and the operators have expressed to the Department what they desired in that regard — that they desired them to be reserved for them; therefore they are vacant; therefore if they were not on the segregated land they would be sold 812 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. as vacant property, but being on the segregated land Congress said that none of the segregated land should be sold to anybody. That applies to all such lots on segregated land, whether leased or unleased. Mr. Shepherd. Well, that applies only to the lots that the mine operators said they wanted reserved. All the rest in the town was reserved, and they could not be sold, now as Mr. Wright says. Now you asked me awhile ago as to whether any of these people had been ejected. The Sanbois Coal Company and the Fort Smith and Western Eailway Company are the same. They are identical. Something like a year ago that company taking advantage of a clause in its lease which required that they should use their land only for mining purposes and not permitting them to use it for any other pur- pose, or allow any other person to use it for any other purpose. Tak- ing advantage of that clause in their lease some time last fall a year ago brought suits in ejectment against about a thousand persons living on that land out here at Chant. Here is a map showmg the improvements on that land. Now here is the line of the company's mines, they having been in on the ground, I should say, that that com- pany is operating on. The company's mines are placed here. Here IS their store, and their coke ovens are down here. Here are 40 acres that were owned or rather occupied by an Indian — Jackson Cooper. Cooper was the occupant of that property when that segregation took place. Jackson Cooper had allotted those 40 acres and he had the right under the law at that time to ahot them. It seems that he did not avail himself of that privilege at once, and I think some one else went and filed on that land. I think it was another Indian named Huston Terrel who filed on the land and he carried on a contest for it before the Dawes Commission for probably a year and a half and the Dawes Commission finaUy decided the contest in the favor of Cooper who was the contestant, because Cooper showed that under that law he had been the occupant of that land and making improvements thereon for years and that he was entitled to allot it. Now after the judg- ment had been rendered by the Commission, he supposing he was the owner The Chairman. Judgment was rendered in his favor? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. By the Dawes Commission ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Now after that decision was rendered a motion for a new trial was filed and vigorously pressed by counsel for the Fort Smith and Western Railway Company, and nowhere during the entire time up to the filing of this motion for a rehearing did the Fort Smith and Western Railway Company enter any objec- tion or seek to come into the case by interpleader or in any other way assert any rights; but simply in the motion for a new trial mentioned the fact that under the Enid-Anardako Act which is found in the Eroceedings of the 57th Congress, first session, 1902, on page 744 of tidian laws and treaties, volume I. That act while it was an act to grant the ridit of way through Oklahoma and the Indian Territory to the Enid Railway Company, and for other purposes, and under the heading of "other purposes" there was incorporated into that act a provision giving to that company the same rights possessed by other railway companies in the Indian Territory — that is, in addition to the usual grant of ground granted to the railway company for right of way granted the privilege that they should also be authorized to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 813 take 40 acres for machine shops or for water tanks or anything else they saw fit to take it The Chairman. It gave them the privilege of taking 40 acres for machine shops? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; for machine shops or water tanks or any other purpose — they could just take it according to the provisions of that enactment for any pvirpose they desired or claimed they wanted it for. Now it seems that while the contest was before the Dawes Commission this company filed a map in the office of the Secretary of the Interior alleging that they needed this 24 acres and that was all there was to it. There was no statement made in it as to what the purpose was they wanted it for. The land was not at or near the station. It was near a mile from the station where they had all the land they could possibly use for switching and turn-out purposes. Now as I said they filed that map with the Secretary of the Interior, and while this contest was pending before the Dawes Commission, they did not say a word nor appear in the case nor make any effort to get into it as intervener in the case between Terrel and Cooper — they simply contented themselves with filing this map, and on the 10th of January, 1905, Cooper was notified that the judgment in his case had been amended and instead of allowing him the entire 40 acres, that 24 acres of it had been awarded to this railroad company. Now that is what the Dawse Commission did, and I have examined the record in that case very thoroughly and have failed to find any suggestion from anyone that the company was interested in the matter imtil the motion for a new trial or rehearing was filed, or any suggestion that a rehearing was had to which Cooper was invited or notified to be present. Not content with that the company under the law filed a suit in condemna- tion in the Poteau division of the central district and without notice to Cooper, but at an ex parte hearing, if any hearing at all was had — I say at an ex parte hearing secured judgment for that 24 acres of land. Now aU this was done and Cooper was totally imaware of any of these proceedings either before the Dawes Commission or before the court. The Chairman. Who did they bring that proceeding in court against? Mr. Shepherd. The Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, and the appraisers reported in their report that they found no occupant on this land excepting a few squatters. The Chairman. They reported that they found no occupant on it? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; no occupant on it excepting a few squat- ters — no one there who had any right to be there. They made that finding when the Dawes Commission five years before that time found Cooper was on it. Cooper had been notified to appear before the Dawes Commission to allot elsewhere; but on a showing he was allowed to allot there. Now, it appeared in the proceedings before the Dawes Commission that all the people living there received per- mission from Jackson Cooper, or the superintendent of the Sanbois Coal Company, to locate there, and that m doing so they were acting pursuant to that permission. The Chairman. How many was there of them? Mr. Shepherd. Nearly a thousand of them. I have a fist of them here and their improvements, and also showing how long they have lived there. 814 I'lVB CIVILIZED TEIBBS. The Chairman. Were none of them made parties to these pro- ceedings ? Mr. Shepherd. Not one of them. The Chairman. The appraisers reported that they were squatters or trespassers? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; the appraisers reported in favor of the company. The Chairman. What is the character of these improvements? Mr. Shepherd. Some of them are mighty good improvements. There is one building there that cost $2,100, yet the appraisers reported to the court that that building was worth $7.50 — $7.50 for a building that cost $2,100. Yes, sir; that is a fact, and I, think that 'was the highest amount they awarded for any building in that city. Senator Clark, of Montana. Did you say this was a proceeding in the United States Court? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; a proceeding in the United States Court. Senator Clark, of Montana. And the appraisers were appointed by the court? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. And they made their return to the court ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. And reported to the court that a build- ing that cost $2,100 was worth only $7.50? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; it is almost incredible, but it is the cold fact. Senator Clark, of Montana. And do you say that it was entirely an ex parte proceeding ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; that is what it was — the appraisers said that all the parties living in that town were trespassers and squatters and there was no improvements of any value and that the land was worth only three dollars and a half an acre. Senator Clark, of Montana. And who did you say were the parties to the suit? Mr. Shepherd. The Fort Smith and Western Railroad Co. and the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, did the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations make any appearance? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; nothing that I know anything of. If they did, the record don't disclose it. There is nothing in the record to show that the council made any appearance or defense whatever. Senator Brandegee. Irrespective of the validity of these pro- ceedings, it is your complaint that inasmuch as there is a thousand people on that tract of land, that is a good and sufficient reason why that land should be set apart and sold separately? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Now, as I advised these people — now, you will understand that my attention was called to these facts when I made the canvass through the country in reference to securing data and stirring up interest in reference to this memorial to Congress — in other words, in the interests of the conventions that were held here. I was chairman of the executive committee that had that matter in charge, and I went up and down through the segregation in order to get the citizens interested in the movement, and this matter was FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 815 called to my attention, and I charged them to give me nothing but the facts — the facts as they could be proven; and particularly did I charge them to be fair and accurate in their estimates of the values of property, and if they erred to be sure and err on the side of under- estimating them, and to be particular in all these things and par- ticularly, also, with reference to the people who were living on the land and owned their own improvements and how long they had been there. The Chairman. Did you say that there was over a thousand people living on that 24 acres?. Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; over a thousand people living on land that the appraisers said did not have a building on it worth more than $7.50, and on land that was worth only $3.50 an acre. The Chairman. And what place did you say that was? Mr. Shepherd. Chant city. It is on the map.~ It is easy to find. The Government recognizes it. It has a post-office maintained by the Government of these United States. The post-office is located on that land and it is important enough in point of receipts or revenue to be a presidential post-office. Now, only twenty days ago a judg- ment was rendered against these people on the part of the Sanbois Coal Company deciding that these people had no rights there, that they were interlopers and trespassers. These people have prepared a bill and wOl appeal it to the Court of Appeals, but in my judgment they have very little chance of success under the pleadings as they are in the case and the evidence. I think it is a matter that should appeal to you gentlemen, for if ever there was a lot of people who are entitled to special and extraordinary measures for their relief these are the ones. It is nothing more nor less than a travesty on justice if such proceedings are tolerated in this land. Senator Long. Do you say that that coal company or railway or whatever it is has a title ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; I don't say anything of the kind. I say it has no better title than the blacksmith and the baker and merchant there. One has just as good and legal a title as the other. None of them in my opinion has a title that has any standing in law. I think that would be the decision too if a proper hearing was had in court in a case with proper pleadings. Senator Teller. These people I suppose had an attorney in court to look after their interests ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; they were supposed to have in the eject- ment proceeding. Senator Teller. Well, they did, didn't they, have an attorney? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; but — well, I won't say anything about that. Senator Long. You are not favorably impressed with the ability of their attorney? Mr. Shepherd. Well, I haven't anything to say. There are law- yers and lawyers, you know. I haven't anything to say about that. This is a matter that appeals to my sympathy, gentlemen; I think it ought to appeal to yours. It is a pity you haven't longer time at your disposal to remain in this section. It would be worth your while to go to that place and see with your own eyes what a travesty justice has played on herself in this matter. 816 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The Chairman. I don't wish to ask you to say anything that you don't desire to say, but I would hke to know if your idea is that the case of the defendants was not properly presented or defended. Now, you may answer if you like; it is optional with you, but you have investigated this matter, and I am sure the committee would like to have your opinion on that point? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; that is my opinion. I know it, and the judge who heard the case said that he was in sympathy with the defendants, but the way the case was presented and tried he could not do anything else. Now, that is what I heard. The Chairman. Who was the judge ? Mr. Shepherd. 'Judge Clayton. I heard his reasons for refusing or overruling the motion for a new trial, for he said openly that the case was not properly tried, and he suggested that they take an appeal and wait the action of Congress on this matter. Now, that is the only company that has taken any steps to eject any people who were in or on their own improvements. Now, there is the town of Dow and Bokoshe and some others on this segregation which have I suppose at least a thousand people each in them. Now, those towns have never been incorporated. They could not incorporate, being on the segregation. These towns have nice improvements, just about as good as you will find in towns of a like size anywhere out here in the west. Bokoshe particularly has some very fine improvements for a place of that size. And that is not peculiar alone to these towns. There are a great many fine improve- ments on this segregated tract. There are some large stone houses on the surface of this segregation. There is no difficulty between the residents of the towns and the mining companies that hold the leases, other than at the place I told you about — Chant — and the companies nowhere else have attempted to disturb the people. Senator Teller. You mean there has been no coal discovered? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; I mean that the coal company who held the lease did not seek to control them. In reference to the coal, fre- quently there is coal under these towns and often it could be worked, but the companies don't do it. Sometimes there is no coal under them. They try to establish towns where there is no coal if they can. Senator 'Teller. Well, I take it from all that you have said that you want Congress to do something. Now, what is it you want Con- gress to do for these people ? Mr. Shepherd. All we want done is for Congress to treat them just as it has other people in the Indian Territory similarly situated. All . we ask Congress to do is to put these people on a parity with McAles- ter and Muscogee and these other towns where a town site has been laid off. They stand in the same position relatively as the others did, and there should be a square deal for them as well as the others. Now these people are not rich; there is no one of great means amongst them. They are comfortable in their modest way, but there are none of great riches or means among them who are able to go out and fight this corporation. I think this is a particularly potent reason why Congress should come to the aid of these people, who are not able to aid themselves. If they have not been properly represented in court that is not their fault. They are not lawyers, nor are they judges of legal qualifications, and it they made a mistake in that behalf, it is only another reason why Congress should heli> tlioTv.— _x)articularly FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 817 when it will not cost Congress a cent and is so easily done. I repeat that these people are hard-working, honest, and industrious people. They are economical, and as a proof of their character and worth as citizens, I will say they have been law abiding in a place where there was no government. Senator Teller. Are they living mostly adjacent to the coal mines ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And are they miners in the mines 1 Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; not all of them, but a great many of them work in the inines. In a great many instances it is miners that own these improvements. In fact, in a great many places the miners have abandoned the houses of the mining company and have erected their own homes, and they have done this with the quasi consent of the mine operators. You will find many, very many instances of that kind where the miners have erected their own homes. This bespeaks a condition of thrift and intelligence, and a forethought for the future that is uncommon perhaps in the experience of anyone familiar with the class or type of miner in the eastern States, or even in Colorado; but I will say that you must not judge the miners here in the Terri- tory by that standard. We have many men working in the mines here who are the equals in point of intelligence and culture with any who grace the professions. Senator Teller. Well, you say that the miners in many instances have erected their own improvements on these lands leased by the coal companies? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And the mine owners do not object to that? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; the mine owners and the people are in per- fect accord. They are perfectly willing to have the surface of these leased lands sold for agricultural purposes, and as tar as the Indians are concerned in the matter of these towns, they are willing that they be laid off as towns and lots sold, for they realize it will bring them more money than in any other way. Take the case of this town of Chant — there is 24 acres there and the way it is appraised — if that deal goes through, the Choctaw Nation will get for that land three dollars and a half an acre — or is it $3 an acre; well it would be about $72 the nation would get for it; whereas, if Congress should pass an act con- stituting of this tract a town site, this land would be sold, every acre of it, for from three hundred to five hundred dollars an acre and the money would of course go to the Indians for distribution. I think, however, at the proper time the courts will deal with the railroad company. I have faith in our courts, after all. I think they will do the right thing. I haven't any faith at all in the condemna- tion proceedings. I don't think there is a court will let that stand. There has been a suit in equity filed on the part of this Indian, Cooper, contesting their claim to the land, and so far as that is con- cerned that is now pending. But I say that Congress can settle l11 these questions in short order, and I think it will be conceded that it is only fair and just that it be done. Cooper, however, has only 24 acres, and the Sanbois lease has 16 acres, and the railroad company has secured an order that possession be given them. That is the con- dition. Now, I have a list here of the people affected and their improvements and their value, and also the length of time they have lived on the land. I have such a list for nearly all these towns, S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 53 818 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Now, in addition to that, I have taken, as carefully as I could secure it, a statement of these districts. I have taken it district by district, and it shows the number of acres leased and unleased in each; the amount of land occupied by the city, the amount of land occupied by the railroad, and the amoimt of land available for agricultural pur- poses in each district, and dividing it into agricultural and grazing districts — that is the amount of land of each character in each district. The Chairman. What do you mean by districts? Mr. Shepherd. In the five districts, as it has been divided — each of these divisions is referred to as a district. Now, I will take district No. 1, which is the McAlester district. Now, here we find unleased land, but segregated, 69,724 acres. Leases, 54; approximation, 50,000 acres; making a total of 119,724 acres in the McAlester dis- trict. Occupied by towns and cities, 3,000 acres; occupied by rail- ways, 1,000 acres; available for agricultural purposes, 60 per cent; for fruit and hand cultivation, 20 per cent; for grazing and timber, 15 per cent, and worthless, 5 per cent. Now, gentlemen, if you have any doubt as to the agricultural pos- sibilities of this section I have only to appeal to the exhibit of agricul- tural productions behind you ranged along the wall. This is an exhibit every article and specimen of which was grown and raised on this segregation. The Chairman. Yes, sir; and it looks mighty good to me. Mr. Shepherd. Well, that is where each and every specimen exhibited there was grown. The Chairman. What do you mean by "worthless?" Mr. Shepherd. Kocks. The Chairman. Rocky land that will not grow anything ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; land that is worthless for grazing or any other purpose in an agricultural sense. Now, I will amend that by saying that nearly all the land that is rocky in this country is good for grazing — that is, where there is open ground in between the ledges of rock where grass and timber will grow ; but in this estimate we allow for the rocks pure and simple. Now, just look at that exhibit, gentle- men, and let it impress itself on you. It is an object lesson that is worth more than all the talk that can be made. It is something that appeals to you, for you can see it. Look at that pumpkin ! There is a pumpkin that weighs 10 pounds more than the one that was exhib- ited at the Dallas State fair this fall as the champion of all Texas. Yes, it weighs 10 poimds more than the one that took the first prize at the State fair at Dallas as the finest exhibit of the imperial State of Texas. Look at the corn, and the wheat, and the cotton. The Chairman. What does this one weigh here? Mr. Shepherd. This pumpkin weighs 89 pounds, sir, and the one at the Texas State fair weighed 79 pounds. That was the one that took the first prize at the greatest agricultural State fair in America. There is no question about the fact that the fair held at Dallas is the greatest State fair and exhibition held in the United States. Now, that there is a Hubbard squash, and 1 don't believe that a finer specimen was ever produced anywhere. We grow about every- thing down here in this segregation. We grow cantaloupes that are the equals of the ones grown at Rocky Ford — yes, gentlemen, cantaloupes equal to the best of Colorado; celery equal to Michigan celery, corn equal to any corn grown in Iowa or Illinois. Well, I said wheat a while ago; but we haven't any wheat here, although FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 819 it has been grown, and good wheat, too ; but we have sweet potatoes that grow 300 bushels to the acre. The Chairman. Is it good wheat land ? Mr. Shepherd. Well, there is 25,000 acres in the Steigler district that will grow 25 bushels to the acre. That potato was grown right here, too, on this segregated land, and if yOu could try it, I thinli you would find it the equal to that grown anywhere. Now, this is the exhibit from this district. No. 1 ; in other words, from this McAlester district. The Chairman. Were all the articles exhibited here grown in the McAlester district ? Mr. Shepherd. A few of the exhibits were grown in the Hartshorn district, I believe, they said. The bulk of them were grown right here at home. The Chairman. They were brought into the hall and grouped yesterduy? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Long. May I enquire if the entire agricultural production of the district is on exhibition here ? Mr. Shepherd. Not by any means. We had a little more brought in to-day, and at intervals diu-ing your stay here we will have more brought injust to show you that we have something back to draw on. Senator Long. Well, if it is much trouble you don't have to do so, for I think this is sufficient to convince the committee that the dis- trict, to say the least, has agricultm-al possibilities. The Chairman. So, there is still some more that you did not bring in? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; any quantity of it. Now, in the Wilburton district — but, by the way, I see a number of round marks on the map here. These, I understand, represent the location of the proposed test holes which the Government proposes to drill on these lands I understand there was an appropriation of $50,000 to make this examination, and I supposed possibly I could run across some one in this country out here in my investigations who was making use of the money in making these holes for the proposed coal survey, but I didn't. Now, in this Wilburton, we have of — Acres. TJnleased lands 44, 346 Leased lands (approximately) 10, 000 Making a total of unleased and leased lands (approximately) 54, 346 I will say here that we have had no opportunity to get any data from the Department; but I am satisfied from what I have heard here and from om- citizens who have gotten up this data and informa- tion, is much more accurate than any report that has as yet been got- ten up on these segregated coal lands. Now, in this Wilburton dis- trict, as I said, the approximate amount of the leased and unleased lands is 54,346 acres. The prairie lands are approximately 50 per cent. I will put it this way: Per cent. Prairie lands 50 Tillable lands, including prairie 75 Grazing and timber lands 12i WortWees 12i 820 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The towns in that district are Wilburton, Fanshawe, Ked Oak, Turkey Creek, and Hughes, each possessing from 500 to 5,000 inhabit- ants. Senator Clakk, of Montana. In this district, or in any district in this segregation, have you any sawmill timber ? Mr. Shepherd. Well, very little. If there is any it is of a very inferior character. I understand that down in the extreme south- eastern part of the Choctaw Nation there is some very fine pine timber, but there is none up in this district. Senator Clark, of Montana. But there is none up here in this district ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; I think not. Well, there is some gpod hickory. There is about as fine hickory as you will find anywhere, and there is quite a large amount of it. The timber down here is mostly oak, and it is largely of an inferior quality. Some of it is suit- able for railway ties; but we are not banking much on the timber. The Chairman. These towns that you enumerated, are they incor- porated towns ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I believe so. I don't know whether Ked Oak is incorporated or not. I doubt it. It may be, but I am inclined to doubt it. A Voice. Red Oak is incorporated, but Turkey Creek and Fan- shawe are not. Mr. Shepherd. Well, I was not sure about it. Hughes is incorpo- rated, I believe. Well, it is immaterial, that information can easily be obtained. Now, these are quite good sized towns; they range in population from 500 to 5,000 each. The Chairman. Have any of them as much as 5,000? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; Wilburton has at least 5,000 population. The Chairman. Is Wilburton incorporated ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; it is incorporated. It maintains a good system of schools and a good system of government. They are strictly up to date — they have electric lights and a waterworks system. The Chairman. Their title is all right ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; in the town it is, but still there are quite a number of persons living outside of the limits of Wilburton on segre- gated land. The Chairman. Can you estimate the number of people living on segregated land outside of the incorporated town? Mr. Shepherd. Well, I would not like to do it, for I have not esti- mated it in such a way only that it would be a guess, and I wouldn't like to venture that. I will say this, that I have made every efl'ort to get it, but I have not got it yet in the form that I want it to be. I will try again and get it right, if possible. Senator Long. Well, Government officers guess; why can't you guess, too ? Mr. Shepherd. I never liked to guess at things. I like to be more accurate. Now, I wish the committee to •understand that I have made the effort, I have applied to the Department of the Interior for a list of the appraisements on the segregated lands belonging to the Indians, for I was satisfied that if I could get a list of the appraise- ments I could get a full list of the population. The Senator knows that we made that effort, for I wrote to him asking that we have that FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 821 information here for this purpose. When I undertake to do a thing I Uke to make out my case right Senator Long. Well, all you are asked to do is to make an estimate, and an estimate is always more or less of a guess. The Government officials do it, and I don't see any reason why you can't do it, too. Now, can't you make an estimate, too ? Mr. Shepherd. I still adhere to my resolution to do no guessing. Now, I can make an ' 'estimate, " for that is what you want, and, first, I will tell you how I make it. When I have done that perhaps you will be as competent to make the estimate as I am. Now, if there were 12 delegates to the constitutional convention awarded to this segregated coal land belt, that would be 12 districts that were carved out of it, which means 12 delegates, and to give you an idea of how many people there is here I will state that these 12 delegates were one- fourth of all the delegates from the Indian Territory, or almost one- fourth. Senator Long. There was 55 delegates from the Indian Territory ? Mr. Shepherd. And 12 of them came from this segregated coal belt. The districts took in this segregated coal land. Senator Long. And you include as in the segregated coal belt, the incorporated towns? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir ; for they are in it. The Chairman. Well, how many people do you include in your estimate that there is on these segregated lands, outside of the incor- porated towns ? Mr. Shepherd.' Well, I will have to estimate that. I don't know any more than that there is somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 people. The Chairman. In that case there must be at least 150,000 people in the incorporated towns in the segregated coal lands ; for I understood you to say some time ago that there was at least 200,000 people in this segregated belt. Is that correct ? Mr. Shepherd. That is quite correct. Tha.t is my estimate. The Chairman. Does that include the people on town sites ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Now, I am not sure in my estimate as to the numbers on the farms. There must be more than that. Well, there are the mines; there are a good many people living around these mines. I suppose that there are fully 15,000 people living around the mines tnat are not in towns at all. I expect there are fully that many. That is something that I had not taken into con- sideration. The Chairman. Well, then, they should be included in the number of people living on the segregated lands outside of the towns. Is that not correct ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The people that are living on lands without any title — that is what I want, Mr. Shepherd. Mr. Shepherd. I understand perfectly what you want, and it is a matter that I have given a great deal of thought to. I tried to get that information collated so that it could be presented to you while here, but I have been unable to do it. It is a big thing for a number of individuals to do, and I liav-e tried to get the data from the Depart- ments as to the improvements that were appraised, for that would 822 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. give us something to go on, but we have been unable to secure it, so we are in the dark, as it were, and really the only tangible thing we have to go on is the vote that was cast at the election. Now, in the Howe-Poteau district The Chairman. You say there was 12 delegates selected from this district ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. To the constitutional convention? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were these districts selected by the judges? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The Federal judges? • Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; the Federal judges carved out these dis- tricts and estimated the population in them. The Chairman. Well, that was done on the judgment of the judges, or an estimate made by them and the commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, that may not have been done correctly. They probably had to guess at it. Mr. Shepherd. Well, if they did they made a mighty good guess, for the vote showed it was about correct. I take no stock in this cry of "gerrymander." There is nothing in it. I will get at that later, and the committee will probably hear more about that before it leaves the Territory. But I will get that later from Guthrie and furnish the committee with it, and it will show just what the vote w;as by districts. The Chairman. Yes, that would be a good plan, and it would be a better plan to get the entire vote of the Indian Territory duly certified, and that will show what the vote was in the segregated lands, and designate the voting places in the segregated lands so they can be designated. Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I can do that, and will do it. Senator Clark, of Montana. With the town sites included? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I can get it by districts. I don't know that I can separate them, but the committee can see by the map of the districts that they are all in the segregated belt. Now, in the Howe-Poteau district, which is the extreme eastern district, we have: Acres. Unleased lands 64, 615 Leased lands, approximately 10, 000 Total leased and unleased 74, 615 Leases, 11. There is 275 farm occupants, heads of families; 10,000 acres of land in cultivation. Forty thousand dollars worth of improvements and last year's cotton crop was worth $120,000. Now, that speaks for itself. A cotton crop m that Howe-Poteau district last year that was worth $120,000 speaks more eloquently than I about the fertility of the soil. Now here is a list of the occupants and the section of land they occupy and how long they have been there. It is a list that is substantially as correct as it is possible to make it. This list was gotten up by the people that live right there on the land and they have been at pains to make it accurate, and I believe it is as accurate FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ■ 823 as it can be and on the whole far more accurate and rehable than anything gotten up by the Department. I wish there was some means of verifying these reports or comparing them with the statistical information furnished by the Department, for I am satisfied the information that is compiled in this report is infinitely more accurate than anything the Government has ever gotten out. Now, in this report I find one man who has lived on the same land thirty-six years, and another one twenty years, and several of them have been there from ten to fifteen years, and many of them for five years and over. Now, all these people who have been there that long were there before the segregation took place. Senator Long. Are those Indians or white people ? Mr. Shepherd. They are mostly white people, but some of them — well, while they are mostly white people, still quite a number of Indians are living there, and although they have taken their allot- ments elsewhere still they are desirous of remaining there on the land where many of them were born and have lived all their lives, which is only natural. Now, gentlemen, I have just been handed the total vote of Okla- homa and the Indian Territory. The total vote of Oklahoma was 98,000— no, 94,000— and of the Indian Territory 108,000. Now I am satisfied that no one will gainsay the proposition that there was at least 20,000 voters in the Indian Territory that did not vote at all, but who remained at home. Senator Teller. Do you think there was a greater proportion of the voters remained at home in the Indian Territory than there was in Oklahoma? Mr. Shepherd. I don't understand that. Senator Teller. You have just stated that you thought it was a proposition that none would gainsay that there was at least 20,000 voters in the Indian Territory who remained at home and did not vote ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And now I ask you if you think there was a greater number or proportion of the voters remained at home and did not vote on election day than there was in Oklahoma? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Why do you think that ? Why did they stay at home? Mr. Shepherd. Well, from the simple fact that a large number of the Indians declined to vote. I don't believe any of the full bloods voted at all. They did not know exactly what it meant, and I under- stood there was a kind of tacit arrangement among them by which they agreed that they would not vote until they found out what it meant. Senator Teller. The full bloods did not vote ? Mr. Shepherd. Very few of them voted as I understand it. Senator Teller. That is what we were told at Muscogee. Mr. Shepherd. Well, there is no doubt about it. That is the information everywhere. And take the case of the Italian miners — a large number of them failed to vote. They would not take the time from their work to go and vote. We had a large number of that class here that did not vote. Now take the people in Oklahoma — voting is no new experience to them. They have been voting regularly at every election for more than sixteen years, and they know what it 824 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. means. Over there they are mostly farmers and business people, with a high standard of intelligence, and they have been votmg for Con- gressmen and legislators and municipal officers for over sixteen years. When people have all the machinery necessary to run a government, they are used to voting, and it is a habit that grows on a man. The Chaieman. In this election they elected county officers, didn't they? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir. That is something that goes over until the constitution is adopted, and after that is accomplished there will be an election to elect county officers. We have to vote two or three times yet before we get down to that. Senator Long. At this last election the people voted on nothing bmt constitutional delegates — that is, delegates to the constitutional con- vention ? Mr. Shepherd. That was all. Now, it is fair to presume that there was a full vote, or a fairly full vote got in Oklahoma, for there was two candidates for delegate to Congress nominated, and there was a very vigorous canvass made, and there was a lot of other prospective can- didates, ones who had their rods up with the hope that the political lightning will strike them, and all of these people were interested in making the best showing they could, so it is a fair inference that in Oklahoma they got their vote fairly well polled, yet we beat them by upward of 14,000 in the total number of votes cast. Senator Teller. You voted for nothing but delegates to the con- stitutional convention? Mr. Shepherd. That was all we voted for here in this Territory. Senator Clark, of Montana. Now, the importance, the object of this showing is to show to Congress the importance of selling these segre- gated coal lands? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; the importance of selling the surface of them. We are not saying anything or making any recommendations about what should be done with the coal. All that we are interested in is the surface rights, the agricultural rights to this land. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, I think, as far as this committee is concerned, that every.member of it will concede that that is a matter that ought to be attended to. Now, I want to ask you a question, and it is about this convention which was held here in McAlester lately. I understood you to say that that convention was very largely attended? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; every town in the segregation had a rep- resentative here. I don't think there was one that was unrepre- sented. Senator Clark, of Montana. There were representatives here from all these towns ia attendance on the convention? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Now, in that representation were there full bloods, and mixed bloods and whites ? Mr. Shepherd. There were no full bloods, but there were some mixed bloods in the convention. A voice. Excuse me, judge, but I think you are in error about that. I think there was one or two full bloods there from over here in the nation. Mr. Shepherd. I stand corrected. I think that is right. The gentleman who has just spoken was a delegate to that convention, and he was a representative of the Indians, and he knows far better than I. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 825 Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, do you think that convention was a fair representation of the people in the Indian Territory? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. It was not a convention of all the people of the Indian Territory. It was a convention composed of people who had interests in this segregated coal-land section. I know it was as fair a representation as could be secured of the land in question or the interests in question. Senator Clark, of Montana. How many delegates did you have here at that convention? Mr. Shepherd. Well, I don't remember. It was held right here in this room, and there was enough of them to about fill it. It was com- fortably filled. Senator Clark, of Montana. How were these delegates selected? Mr. Shepherd. They were chosen by the people in their various towns. Senator Clark, of Montana. Did they express their opinion as to the sale of the coal lands? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir. On the contrary, we have steadily pur- sued and kept in view the one object, and that is the disposition of the surface rights to these segregated coal lands. We have sought to keep out of any conflict with any other interest that might inter- fere with the accomplishment of the purpose we are seeking to accomplish. No, we don't want to get in any controversy about minerals, for we have felt that the salvation of this country and its future importance depended more on the development of its agri- cultural potentiality rather than its development as a coal-produc- ing section. Coal is all very well, but it is a temporary thing. The time will come when the coal will all be mined and the people will still be here depending on the land for their livelihood. 'That is something that can't be taken from us. They can dig the coal out of the ground and haul it away, but the surface will still remain and retain its agricultural possibilities. We have felt all the time that unless the surface of this segregation was sold that every town in it would have to abandon any form of local self-government, and that there would be nothing here on which to levy taxation for the pur- pose of maintaining a county government and the schools, etc., to say nothing of the State government. We feel and have felt that unless this relief is granted us the boon that has been offered to us in the shape of statehood would be as Dead Sea fruit in our hands and as ashes in our mouths. That is the way we feel about it and have felt for years. We know what has been hanging around the neck of this country here — this one thing that is fairly throttling the energy of this and every other community in this section, filled as they are by wide-awake and live American citizens. There are very few communities anywhere that would, under like conditions, show the enterprise and activity that this city does here, and yet its condi- tion IS incomparably better than many of these other less fortunate communities m the segregation to which I have directed your atten- tion. All that we ask is the sale of these magnificent agricultural lands to actual settlers in small tracts and in that way induce a pop- ulation to come here and live with us who will be able and willing to bear their pro rata share of the burden of maintaining a State and local governments, cities, and towns. 826 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Why, gentlemen, there are hundreds of farmers — whole train loads of them every week — daily almost — are sweeping right past our doors and over as fertile a soil and as genial a climate as can be found anywhere. On to the west they are going to the Panhandle of Texas to get land that can in no manner compare With these here. They have been here, many of them, and have been worried and made sick at heart by the infinite detail and multiplicity of red-tape methods that are involved in doing anything. Nothing can be done here. Everything has to be done in Washmgton by some clerk in the Interior Department, fifteen hundred and more miles away, who has never been here and never expects to be here and knows nothing about what conditions are here and probably cares less. So I s»y farmers who would like to locate on these lands have been made sore and heartsick waiting and waiting for the day when these lands would be opened up and they could get a little farm where they hoped to live snugly and comfortable as good citizens and rear their families in the way a family ought to be reared. It is not fair to the farmer and it is ruinous to this country. I will venture the asser- tion that there are far less people in the Choctaw Nation than there was a year ago. Farmers who want land can't wait. Time flies and they keep on growing older, and what they want they want now and in this life. Senator Long. Have you ma-de an estimate of the value of these segregated coal lands outside of the cities? Mr. Shepherd. Do you mean the surface of them ? Senator Long. Yes, sir. Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I have examined the land as well as I could, and particularly have I examined it with regard to what it produced. Now when I find farmers coming into towns with cotton that has grown on the land at the rate of a bale to the acre I can figure just as well as anybody what that land is worth for leasing, for cotton is the staple product of the State I came from (Louisiana), and when we see land down there that will raise a bale of cotton to the acre we figure that that land is worth anywhere from $18 to $20 or $25 an acre, and that, too, when cotton was no such a price as it is now. Down in my old State that land would be worth $30 to $40 an acre, if there was any assurance that cotton would stay around where it is now. Senator Long. What is cotton worth now ? Mr. Shepherd. Cotton is worth now, approximately — well, it is worth, I believe, a little more than $50 a bale, and the seed is worth one-third more. Senator Long. In arriving at the value of this land, do you follow the rule of taking the amount of cotton it would produce in a year and sell at $50 a bale, and then mtdtiply the product of that sum by the number of years that the cotton would probably sell at that price, and give the sum of that as the value of the land? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir. Senator Long. You don't believe in that rule of figuring for arriv- ing at the value of things ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; but if I find a piece of land in the Indian Territory that will produce a bale of cotton to the acre with good cultivation, I say that is good land; and if I find land that will pro- duce 60 bushels of com, I say it is good land, here or anywhere, .riVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 827 and I believe, if I had the means, that I would wUlingly pay $50 an acre for it. Up there in Kansas, in your State, they will willingly pay 150 an acre for land that will produce 60 bushels of corn to the acre, won't they? Senator Long. I guess they would — if they could be sure of it every year. The Chairman. I see by the evening papers the votes cast in the various districts in the Indian Territory. Here it is in the evening paper. Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir;, by districts. I will get it figured out for you and show you just what it was in this segregation. The Chairman. I wish you would. Mr. Shepherd. It will be done for you. ' Senator Clark, of Montana. Have you figured out about what percentage of the surface of these segregated lands are adapted for agricultural purposes? " Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; I have that figured out all right, too. Now, before answering that I wish to say that I don't agree with the estimates made by the gentlemen who appeared here before you this morning. They estimated that only about 25 per cent of the surface of the segregated lands were susceptible of cultivaton. Why, gentlemen, 75 per cent of the segregated lands are cultivatable lands, and if Congress will put them on the market they will find a ready purchaser at a good price. There is no manner of doubt about that proposition. It is simply ridiculous to estimate that only 25 per cent of these lands are fit for agriculture. But I can better answer your question by proceeding with this report which we have had prepared. I believe I finished the third district — yes, that is right — and I will now proceed with the fourth district. That is the McCurtain-Massey district. Unleased lands, 79,833 acres; 11 leases; leased land, approximately, 10,000 acres; making a total of 89,833 acres. Valuable for cultiyation, 80 per cent; valuable for grazing and timber, 20 per cent. Now, I will proceed to District No. 5, called officially the Wilburton- Stigler district: Unleased lands, 25,392 acres; no leases. Valuable for cultivation, practically 100 per cent; in cultivation, ascertained, 4,580 acres; value of improvements, f22,800. Cotton crop this year at the present prices of 10 cents, |55,100. Value of corn crop this year at present prices, 85 cents per bushel, $29,685. Total value of average crop at this year's prices, $84,785. Now, this report has been very carefully compiled by a committee who went out there and saw personally every person that occupied these lands and secured from him the amount of his crop and the number of bales of cotton he produced, and also the number of bushels of corn. This, I think, is the best and most perfect estimate I secured. On this 25,000 and some odd hundreds of acres there is not a lease, and everybody who has made an examination for coal has foimd very little of it. Apparently the coal deposits are not worth working. The coal that they found was of an inferior quality. I might say m this connection that for advertising purposes, if a person were to pass through the town of Stigler they will find a great big chunk of coal on exhibition, intended to duly impress the stranger, ■ but I'll tell you it is only for advertising purposes; and when we come to make a representation to a committee repre- 828 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. senting the Senate of the United States we propose to be accurate in our statements. Senator Clark, of Montana. What fruits succeed here? Mr. Shepherd. One acre of strawberries not 1 mile from where we are, yielded this year $1,000. That is what strawberries do here. None finer are grown in the world. It is also the natural home of the grape. Western New York, the great grape section of this country east of the mountains, can not compare with this district down here. The grapes there can not compare with the grapes grown here. Senator Clark, of Montana. Have you — have the people any vine- yards here ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; on these segregated lands the Italians here and there have small plantations of their own kind of grapes which have succeeded marvelously well, and they are apparently free from the insect pests which prove so destructive in other localities. But that is all there is; there has been no attempt to go into the cul- ture of the grape on a large scale; and so it is with other truits on a large scale. It is ideally fitted for such, but in view of the uncertain conditions no one has gone to the expense and trouble of setting out large orchards; but I will say this, that the apples that are grown here can not be excelled in New York or Michigan, nor can the best Eeach country in the United States excel the peaches that are grown ere. The pear does not do so well here, but cherries and plums are as good as they can be. All fruit experts unite in claiming that the apple and peach grow to perfection in southern Missouri and nothern Arkansas, and this is the same kind of a country, with the same characteristics as to climate, soil, etc., so why won't they grow here as well? Indeed, we know from the samples that are raised that they will, and that they are identically the same as the fruit that has taken first premium at every exhibition where it has been ex- hibited for j^ears. Now, gentlemen, I want to call your attention to this district here. If the committee only had the time to pass through it, you would find a prairie as fine as ever existed in Kansas or Illinois or anywhere else. I refer to the Lehigh-Ardmore district. Between here and Ardmore on the railway you go over a part of it, but not by any means the best part of it. You won't go over that in the day- time. It is here in District No. 6. It is the Lehigh-Ardmore dis- trict, and the figures which I now present are the statistics we have compiled regarding it, which are as accurate as can be. Unleased lands 52,432 acres. Leased lands (21 leases) approximately 25,000 acres. Total acreage 77,432 acres. Valuable for cultivation 87 per cent. For timber and grazing 10 per cent. Balance worthless. Production, 900 pounds seed cotton per acre on an average, 25 bushels corn, 25 bushels wheat, 40 bushels oats. Put in truck gardening and small fruits will yield .$3,000,000 annually. Annual gross ;^roduction, $27 per acre. This Exhibit No. 6, next to McAlester, is the largest producing coal district. Coalgate and Lehigh are in this district. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 829 Nine hundred pounds ot seed cotton is equal to two thirds of a bale, for it takes about 1,500 pounds of seed cotton to make 500 pounds of lint, which is a bale. These estimates are the estimates of the people' who visited the section and went over it and compiled this informa- tion as carefully as it can be done. The Chairman. Do you consider land that will raise 25 bushels of corn per acre real good agricultural land ? Mr. Shepherd. Well, yes, I consider it good land in a Southern country. This is not a corn country, you must remember, like Kansas and Iowa and Illinois. The Chairman. Well, I mean for commercial purposes — raising a crop for sale — in the production of corn, how will it compare with, say, Kansas or Nebraska? Mr. Shepherd. Well, it won't compare at all under present methods, but I will say this, that if the same methods of cultivation were applied, and the same pare used in the selection of the seed, and in all other things the same care was exercised in the matter of raising the crop, I am of the opinion that it would not fall very far behind either Kansas or Nebraska. When we get a State agricultural college and have a car going — an experimental car going through the country, as they have in these other communities — and the people are educated up to the proper methods of farming, my impression is that these lands will then produce as much as the lands of Kansas or Iowa or Nebraska or Illinois. The Chairman. Well, from the raw lands there they take oflF from 60 to 65 bushels to the acre? Mr. Shepherd. Well, that is better than with us. The Chairman. If they grow 25 bushels of wheat to the acre, that is a good crop ? Mr. Shepherd. I think so. That ought to satisfy anyone. Now, the gross production of the cultivated land in this section averages $27 per acre. The Chairman. What is the grass they raise ? Mr. Shepherd. It is all native grasses — mesquit principally. Cattle do well on it. It is good grazing. Cattle do well on it the year round. There are people now raising hay for sale on this segregated land. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is there any alfalfa land in this district ? Mr. Shepherd. Well, I have seen alfalfa raised in other places. I have seen it growing elsewhere. I don't believe that anybody has tried to raise it down here ; still I believe there would be no trouble in raising it in some of these creek bottoms. Senator Clark, of Montana. You have seen none growing in this section? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; but I believe there would be no trouble in growing it in these creek bottoms; however, I haven't seen any of it grown there. Senator Teller. Do they raise any timothy? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; no tame grasses are grown here at all. Now just a few moments ago Mr. Scholz gave you a very intelligent account of the coal mines. Now I have here a list of the persons on these leases he has described to you. I have here a list of the persons living on the land and the amount of land they have in cultivation, and the amount of their improvements with their value, and the 830 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. length of time these persons have hved on the land. I don't want to .read it, for it would take up too much of your valuable time. The Chairman. Do you intend to have the whole statement printed ? Mr. Shepherd. I thought it would be well to print the number of people and give their names, and I have that here as far as I have been able to get them. I wish to say this to the committee — of course I have had very little help. I have been engaged in this work for some time, but it has been a difficult matter to get people interested in a matter that every one is supposed to be interested in and nobody is paid for. It has been a labor of love; every one has devoted his time gratis. This is a work> that has been done by the progressive citizens voluntarily without any reward of a financial nature. Their work has been prompted solely and only by a desire to aid this section, and in doing that work only careful and painstaking people have been selected, and they have been cautioned particularly to be very careful, and I believe that is the way it has been done. I don't think the Government will be able to gather statistics in a general way such as these have been gathered that will prove more reliable than these. Now, about these lands. I estimate that if these lands are placed on sale, and the sale is advertised to take place about next July, if the land is appraised and the Department sets out these different mining towns and surveys them with a corps of surveyors, and plats of them are made, and if the farming lands are appraised and placed on the market in some such manner as the Kiowa pasture was, my opinion is that the surface alone of these lands will produce more money than was offered for the entire coal and mineral lands under the sealed-bid system. The Chairman. Well, what do you think it will produce per acre? Mr. Shepherd. Well, the land varies so much and there has been such a bearing of the value of this land that I am going to give you an estimate, and I am going to be conservative. I am going to give you an estimate that I am sure will be an underestimate, and which will be greatly exceeded if the land is placed on sale and sold at auction to the highest bidder. Now, I think that there will be a great variance in the price these lands will bring. I am satisfied that some of it will bring as much as $50 an acre, and there are lands that will bring $25 an acre, and some others that won't bring more than a dollar an acre. The Chairman. There is a pretty wide variance in these figures, from $1 to $50 an acre? Mr. Shepherd. Well, if they are sold they will bring that. The Chairman. Well, that is not exactly what I wanted to get at. I wanted to know approximately about what the average of the farm lands would be, what would the average price be? Mr. Shepherd. They will bring all around somewhere between $12 and $15 an acre. The Chairman. The $50 an acre land is land near the towns, I suppose, that would be used as truck land or garden land ? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir. There is lots of lands in the creek bottoms that will bring that price for farming purposes, as cotton land; and there is also some very fine prairie land that will bring that price too, if sold in small tracts. The Chairman. If sold in small tracts? FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. 831 Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How small? Mr. Shepherd. Well, in tracts as small as 40 acres or less if they want them smaller. The Chairman. Well, what part or what proportion of these lands would be sold in a reasonable time M ter putting them on the market ? Mr. Shepherd. There would not be an acre of it that there would not be bids for at a good price within a specified time. Just give three months' time for the railroad companies to get in their work of advertising the fact that these lands will be in the market and will be sold at a specified time, and if the people for, say, three months have a chance to go over the land and examine it, there won't be a foot of it but what will be sold, not an acre of it that there won't be a bid for, and the Indian people then will have plenty of money to go ahead and develop their allotments. The Chairman. Well, I don't know that I understand your plan for selling this land. Do you mean to sell it at public auction? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; for that gives opportunities for combina- tions; that would give opportunities for combinations. The Chairman. Well, I understood you a moment ago to say that the best way was to sell the land at public auction? Mr. Shepherd. Well, that was an inadvertence. It would be an auction in a way, but not an open public sale. The Chairman. Well, is it your plan to give the people a run for the land? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; that's not it either. I will tell you my idea of it. I think the best plan is to have all these lands appraised and then receive sealed bids for the land, to be sold on these sealed bids at a price not less than the appraised value, and to sell them pay- able part cash and the balance on time at a low rate of interest. The Chairman. Would you call for sealed bids for each tract? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir, I would, and require each man to have the homestead qualification. The Chairman. That would be a pretty big undertaking, I think, for there would be a great many thousand tracts ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And that contemplates that there would be a buyer for each one of these tracts ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; and there would be a buyer for each tract. From present indications there will be two or three buyers for each tract in the Kiowa Reservation, and it looks as if it would be that way here. The Chairman. You may have purchasers for the v/hole of each tract and you may have purchasers for half of it, or half a dozen of them for each tract, or half a dozen for one tract, and none at all for another? Mr. Shepherd. You need labor under no apprehension on that score. There will be bidders for all of it. Our Indian friends, one of whom wishes to appear before you and make a statement, are expect- ing to bid on it for pasture purposes only among some of the rocks and hills. I assure you that there will be bidders for every tract because of the great land hunger. There can be no question about that. Now gentlemen, as I said before, there are thousands of people going through here, train load after train load of them, going out to 832 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the arid plains of Texas buying land for $15 an acre and more, the same lands that formerly, and not so very long ago, sold for 25 cents an acre. I would have the bids received on the plan that has been finally mapped out for the Kiowa pasture. The Chairman. When are these^bids to be opened? Mr. Shepherd. The 6th of December. I understand that there are fully 50,000 people down there prospecting the land now. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you think it would be wise in the case of the rocky land that is fit for grazing purposes only to confine them to not more than 160 acres? Mr. Shepherd. No, sir; that was something I omitted. I think that land should be sold in larger tracts. « Senator Clark, of Montana. How much do you think could be realized on all these lands? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; Senator Clark, of Montana. Have you an estimate ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. How much is it ? Mr. Shepherd. My estimate is taking the toAvn lots and the farm lands in the 445,000 acres, and take out say the 20 per cent for the use of the operators, for 20 per cent of the area is about what they will need for plants and machinery and operating purposes, and taking out that 20 per cent that would leave in round figures about 360,000 acres of land. Senator Clark, of Montana. And then you would have to take out the incorporated towns ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; now stating it in a lump sum I am satis- fied that these lands would yield somewhere from five to six millions of dollars. Senator Clark, of Montana. Five or six millions of dollars ? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir; and a large part of it will be immediately available. It will furnish immediate money for distribution among these people, who are now starving on these lands. Senator Clark, of Montana. Would you provide for the immediate distribution of that? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. It is their money and why shouldn't they have it, when they are needing it. Senator Brandegee. Everybody down here is for immediate dis- tribution? Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. I think the Indians ought to have their money right away. The Chairman. At 8 o'clock this evening the committee will meet here for the purpose of hearing the operators on the coal proposition. I trust we will be able to complete that subject this evening. That hearing will begin at 8 o'clock, and we will now adjourn until that time. So the committee at 6 o'clock p. m. took a recess till 8 p. m., when it reassembled. The Chairman. Gentleman, the committee has asked the coal operators to meet here with it to-night, and give it such information as they may have and desire to present, and I have understood that they have selected some one or more of their number to speak par- ticularly for them. We will be glad to hear from the coal operators of this district at this time. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 833 STATEMENT OF MR. FRANKLIN BACHE. The Chairman. Where do you reside ? Mr. Baohe. I live in Fort Smith, Ark. The Chairman. What party or parties or interest or interests, if any, will be represented here particularly by you Mr. Bache. We wish to know that, if possible? Mr. Bache. This statement which I will read to you, will represent, I think, the views and opinions and wishes of a large majority, if not all, the operators in the Indian Territory. This statement is dated at South McAlester, Ind. T., and is as follows : South McAlester, Ind. T., November 19, 1906. To Hon. Clarence D. Clark, chairman; Hon. Chester I. Long, Hon. Frank B. Brandegee, Hon. Henry M. Teller, and Hon. William A. Clark, Members of Select Committee of United States Senate to investigate affairs in Indian Territory: The Indian Territory coal operators, knowing that you are anxious to obtain real facts with reference to the coal fields in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, beg to submit the following suggestions as to the conditions which obtain in such fields. Much has been said and written in regard to these coal fields, and, in view of the exhaustive reports which, have from time to time been made to the Government by Mr. William Cameron, United States mine inspector, we feel there is little now for any one to urge or present. The operators, however, are solicitous in seeing that the actual facts are brought to your attention. There are, as the committee doubtless knows, in actual figures 101,400 acres of coal lands now under lease in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. The total amount of land set aside and segregated by Congress as coal land amounts to 444,983^^ acres. By subtracting from this total amount the 101,400 acres under lease we have remain- ing 342,023fV acres of unleased coal land. The nature of this unleased coal land, its productive quality, and its workable condition are largely a matter of speculation, and these things can not be stated with anything like mathematical accuracy. We think it is fair to assume, however, that the best coal land has been taken up by lease. That is, that the unleased land will, in no event, discover thicker veins, nor a better quality of coal than the land already leased. In considering the conditions here it must be constantly kept in mind that much of the leased coal land is faulty and unworkable and the lessees of such land were compelled under Government regula- tions to accept these leases, in areas of 960 acres each, limited, however, as to the extent ■ of the outcrop, thus compelling the lessee to take chances as to the existence and avail- ability of the deeper coal. Those who have prospected here for the last thirty years practically agree that not more than 100,000 acres of the unleased land may be classed as workable. In other words, the leased and unleased coal land which may be classed as workable (but much of which we know to be actually unworkable) amount to about 200,000 acres. The statement was made by a United States Senator at the last session of Congress, and this statement can be found in the Congressional Record of March 28, 1906, that the coal deposits in the unleased lands in the Indian Territory were worth $175,000,000 in royalty, and the further statement w^s made that the coal lands leased and unleased were worth more than $4,000,000,000. It is clear to any man who has studied condi- tions here that the coal land in this Territory can not, under any circumstances, be worth more per acre than they bring in royalty. Although the royalty is high and oppressive, and put the operator at a great disadvantage with competitive States, that royalty, when applied to the acreage of coal actually workable and capable of develop- ment, could not bring the price per acre to more than |140. It is conceded, and, indeed, admits practically of no dispute that the coal veins in the Indian Territory field will not average more in thickness than 3.5 feet. With a thickness in vein of 3.5 feet, the best and highest ield taken into consideration, the mining conditions, as they will be hereafter shown, can not be more than 3,500 tons to the acre. This yield, con- ceding that half the coal is workable and capable of development, would, at 8 cents a ton, amount to $140 per acre. This, taking the rosiest and most optimistic view of conditions here, shows the absolute incorrectness of the statement above referred to. We beg now to call your attention to the physical conditions which obtain in these coal ■fields, for the purpose of showing that the royalty of 8 cents per ton, which is now fixed and charged, is exorbitant and unreasonable, and if continued will finally drive the present operators out of business. The statement was made on the flppr of the Senate, S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 54 g34 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. at the same session above indicated, that a vast area of country is dependent on the Indian Territory for its coal, and that within five years 10,000,000,000 people would take their coal supply from the Indian Territory. In view of this statement, we beg to ask your committee to what locality the Indian Territory is compelled to ship its coal? It can not be to Kansas, because Kansas can produce its coal and place it upon the market at prices that will defy competition from this Territory. And what little coal is shipped 'from here to Kansas is shipped because of its superior quality and for domes- tic purposes only. It can not be to Colorado, because there we find an unlimited sup- ply of coal on level veins from 6 to 7 feet thick, produced by labor at prices which will finally warrant the shipment of Colorado coal into the very heart of the Indian Terri- tory. It can not be to Missouri, because there new coal fields are being constantly devel- oped, and the conditions, both as to mining and to market, are such as to make competi- tion from the Indian Territory almost impossible. It can not be to Arkansas, because there first-class coal lands can be purchased, as they can in Missouri and Illinois, at from ^10 to $50 per acre. In Arkansas, which is our nearest competitor, level or nearly level coal veins can be found from 6 to 7 feet in thickness, and there is coal sufficient to supply, not only the needs of Arkansas, but of every adjacent State in which the In- dian Territory, even if conditions were entirely favorable, would seek a market. Another formidable competitor, narrowing and curtailing the market of the Indian Territory, is the State of Illinois, where coal can be and is mined and marketed at 85 cents per ton. It will be seen from the above statements, which are not only conservative, but which can be verified by data, that the market of Indian Territory coal is limited, practically, to the States of Texas and Oklahoma. In Texas we are met with unusual and unique opposition, because there we are competing with not only an unlimited supply of lignite coal, which, while inferior to our coal, is produced at so cheap a price as to command an extensive market, but also with oil, which as a fuel is driving us from the Texas market. The cost of producing coal in the Indian Territory is much greater than that of adja- jacent fields. Among the conditions which constantly confront Indian Territory oper- ators are the mechanical difliculties arising from the inclination or pitch of the veins, which vary from 10 to 70 degrees. We add to this the presence in all these mines of carbureted hydrogen, or explosive gas, and explosive coal dust, which are not only sources of constant danger, but an enormous expense — an expense in the purchase and establishment of means and methods for conducting air to dilute and expel the gas, to furnish protection against explosions of coal dust, an expense in the employment of men to inspect and detect the presence of gas and explosive coal dust, and an expense in the defense of suits for damages for accidents occurring week after week and month after month, although every precaution is taken to protect human life. We add further to the above items of expense, the treacherous character of the roof under which the miners work. This calls for an immense expenditure in timbers and . propping. We add further to all this the cost of pumping, which is enormous, and is necessary, and the expense of protection from sudden rainfalls, which have shut down permanently and destroyed several of the best mines in this Territory in which thousands of dollars have been invested and lost. We may add to the above, the great loss which is constantly occurring from fires in the mines, which the utmost dili- gence and foresight can not prevent, and which almost invariably necessitate the sealing and closing of the mines for a long period of time, thus putting both the oper- ator and the miner out of business. All these things, and there are many minor details left unmentioned, add to the cost and risk of mining coal in the Indian Territory. If our market is limited practically to Texas and Oklahoma it becomes highly important, not only to the coal operator but to the owner of the coal lands, that no greater tax or royalty shall be fixed and charged than will permit open and active competition with coal fields and coal dealers of adja- cent States. The justice of the thing can be easily reached and is not difficult of calcu- lation. A man goes into the State of Arkansas and buys coal lands at an average of lees than $50 per acre. The veins on these coal lands will be at least from 5 to 7 feet thick. But fixing the yield in Arkansas on the same basis as here, that is, 3,500 tons to the acre, the royalty would at $50 an acre be about 1.43 cents per ton. ' How is it possible in the face of these figures for the Indian Territory operators to make successful competition with the adjacent coal fields? As showing conclusively that the production of coal in the Indian Territory has not gained for the operator great profit, we quote from the vol- ume edited by Edward W. Parker, of the Interior Department, entitled ' 'The Produc- tion of Coal in 1905." On page 140 of this volume is found the following language- ' 'Comparing the output of the Territory in 1905 with that in 1904, it is seen that there was a decrease of 122,112 short tons, or4 percent, while as compared with 1903 the pro- duction fell off 592,961 short tons, or nearly 17 per cent. The loss in value was even more pronounced, for with the decline in the average price per ton from $1.82 in 1903 FIVE CIVILIZBD TRIBES. 835 and 1904 to $1.76 in 1905, the total value in 1905 shows a decrease of $386,708, or 7 per cent, as compared with 1904, and of $1,241,105, or nearly 20 per cent, as compared with 1903." We respectfully submit, therefore, that the question of royalty be taken up and considered by your committee, to the end that a fair and just price shall be fixed and charged, a price which will insure the development of these mines and a fair return to the operator on his investment. The above statement, both as to figures and conditions, can be verified by data and will be furnished later to your committee. They have been ascertained and learned from the most practical and expert coal miners and dealers in this Territory, and from Government officers, whose duties lead them to an investigation of these conditions, and whose statements as to the same are unimpeachable. With reference to the sale of the surface of the segregated coal lands, we beg to say that the operators make no objection. We do suggest, however, that where the surface of existing coal leases is sold, at least 25 per cent of such surface shall be reserved to the coal operator, and that the operator shall have the right to purchase at a fair val- uation this 25 per cent. This land will be needed for miners' houses and for develop- ment. The provision ought also to be made that in case of unforseen necessity for sinking new shafts, or of any other steps necessary to mining operation and development the operator shall have the right to buy the surface necessary for such purpose, under such terms and conditions as will be just to all parties interested. We further recommend that if the unleased coal lands are to be leased, they shall be leased on exactly the same terms as the leased lands, because it is clear that if the operators are not placed on a parity and even footing in this regard, much loss and confusion will necessarily result. The operators further suggest that if Congress shall see to provide for the sales of the unleased lands like provision shall be made for the sale of the leased lands, with the proviso, however, that those who have invested their money in present leases shall be given a prior right of purchase of their leased lands at a fair and reasonable price. We respectfully suggest that if the committee desires to inspect any of the mines in their fields, we shall be glad to see that every facility necessary to enable the com- mittee to make this inspection is furnished. We have made the foregoing suggestions purely for the purpose of directing the attention of your committee to the actual conditions which confront the operator, the miner, and the owner of the land, and we have made them without argument or elab- oration, hoping and believing that your committee will investigate and make such recommendations as will relieve the operators of the many unusual and unreasonable burdens which they are now compelled to carry, and at the same time do justice to the Indian, who owns the coal, and the public who buys it. Respectfully submitted, Indian Territory Coal Operators. The Chairman. Now, Mr. Bache, I will ask you one or two ques- tions in regard to this. I take it from the reading of this paper, that it is the view of the operators, or is contended to be the view of the operators in the Indian Territory, in other words, it is their conten- tion, that they are not now getting from their operations the full return on their business, or on the money invested in their business, because of the excessive royalty which they claim is levied or assessed on the product of their operations ? Mr. Bache. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, what royalty in your opinion ought to be charged, or how much ought this royalty to be decreased in order to make a fair investment, a fair return upon the investment or upon the business ? Mr. Bache. Well, I can answer that question perhaps best in this way: One of our chief competitors — in fact competition is growing more and more onerous, and that is the competition from Illinois — the railroads hauling it over the new Thebes bridge and delivering it cheaper than we can possibly do at Texas points. The Illinois fields are large and they are very easily worked, they have no dust or gas like we have and therefore it does not take as costly and expensive 836 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. equipment to run them, and the coal is mined for a very low rate on account of the ease with which it can be mined, and at home they practically have no competition. The market is all their own, but they have invaded this market out west here, and their competition is becoming very irksome and onerous, as they have a very favorable freight rate, which enables them to deliver their coal at Texas points cheaper than we can think of doing. Royalties in Illinois vary from 2 to 5 cents a ton and we pay here 8 cents a ton, and in Arkansas it is 3 cents a ton, or about the same as it is in Illinois. This extra royalty is a very great handicap to us. It may seem that a royalty ' f only 8 cents a ton is a trifling amount, but where the competition is keen it is a very serious matter and practically keeps us out of markets that we could enter if it were not for that royalty. The Chairman. Now, another question. I note in the statement you have read that the earnings of the coal operators in this field dur- mg the last two or three years have very materially decreased? Mr. Baohe. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is it not a fact that the demand for coal throughout the country in the past two or three years has been very greatly in- creased ? Mr. Bache. Yes, sir; it has been increasing right along. The Chairman. How do you account for the fact that it has decreased in this Territory while it has been so greatly on the increase elsewhere ? Mr. Bache. I don't understand that? The Chairman. You say it is a fact that there has been a great and continued increase in the demand for coal in this whole country during the past three years. Now I ask you how you account for the decrease in the production of coal here during that time in the face of the great increase in the demand for coal elsewhere in the country? Mr. Bache. It is accounted for in several ways. One is, the increase in wages here make on a percentage basis an increase in the cost of production. If coal is mined on the basis of 70 cents a ton in Illinois and there is an increase of 5 per cent in that amount, it figures out 3i cents a ton, and if we make the increase it amounts to 10 cents a ton instead of SJ cents. Another reason is the growing importance of the field; the Illinois field is growing in importance all the time. They are entering the market with coal here now and are keeping agents to dispose of their product in Texas, which Is something they did not do before. Probably the greatest cause of the depression here is the growing use of oil as a fuel in Texas, and in this mid-continent field. There have been great discoveries of oil and gas, which is used very largely for fuel, and all of that cuts down the consumption in the field which is to be our own exclusively. A great many people are using gas, and this cuts into our market in Oklahoma and here in the Territory. There are towns there that don't take a car of coal in the winter that used to take hundreds of them. Take Tulsa, for example; there are 5,000 people there, and the whole lot don't bum a car of coal in the year, and even in Muscogee they are figuring on bringing nat- ural gas in there. All of this cuts in on our market very severely, and it promises to keep on doing so for years to come; so the prospect for relief is not flattering. The Chairman. Now in regard to the sale of these leased lands: In the event that a law should be passed by Congress providing for the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 837 sale of these lands that are leased, what would be your view in regard to the disposition of the improvements now on the lands made by the Mr. Bache. I should think that they should be considered the actual property of the lessees. That is what it actually is, and I see no reason of right or justice why it should not be considered as the actual property of the lessees. I think if that land is put up for sale — the surface of it — that the lessee should be permitted to buy that prop- erty — should have the right to buy it at the actual price that is paid for the property adjoining it that is unleased. I think it is only right and just that the owner of the lease should have that privilege. The Chairman. Well, if I remember right, the improvements, excepting your necessary machinery, such as boilers, remain with the land at the termination of the lease. Is that true? Mr. Bache. That is true; the boilers and engines, and I think the miners' houses and probably the tipples. The leases are for thirty years, and the shortest of them now remaining have twenty-three years to run, and at the end of that time the improvements which are now on the land, although of a very substantial nature, will prob- ably be worth nothing, or practically nothing; they would not cut any ice, if you will allow me to use that expression. The Chairman. Well, I think that applies pretty well. Senator Long. I believe you stated in your paper that the average selling price of coal is about $1.76, did you not? Mr. Bache. Well, I don't recall now what it was, but it was some- thing along that line. Senator Long. Now, what information can you give us as to the average cost of production in this field ? _ Mr. Bache. Well, I could not speak with authority as to the opera- tions of .everybody else in the field, but the impression I have, judging from my own operations, is that there is not much made. Senator Long. How many mines do you operate ? Mr. Bache. Two in the Indian Territory. Senator Long. What is the name of them ? Mr. Bache. One is the Kali-Inla Coal Company and the other is the Bache-Duncan which is located at the end of the Choctaw road, or the Kock Island now, about 40 miles from here to the east. In reference to the cost of production, I would say that it is not any- where less than $1.70 a ton. Senator Long. Does that include the royalty ? Mr. Bache. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Does it include interest on the investment ? Mr. Bache. No, sir. Senator Long. "That figure of $1.70 includes royalty, but does not include interest on the investment ? Mr. Bache. That is correct. Senator Long. Does it include any special charge in lieu of interest ? Mr. Bache. It includes a charge of 2 cents a ton that is charged in as cost of production for depreciation on plant. That is the usual charge made for that purpose. It does not include any general sala- ries, or anything else other than what is properly chargeable against the product. I know of some coal, quite a large tonnage of it, that costs more than $2 a ton to produce. Senator Long. What does that coal sell for? 838 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Bache. I don't know what it is sold for, but it would sell for more than the average. If it did not sell for more than the average, they would not be operating it very long. Senator Beandegee. What determines the royalty as fixed in Illinois ? Mr. Bache. Competition. Senator Beandegee. Well, has it become the custom for all the lessors to charge the same royalty ? Mr. Bache. No, sir. Senator Beandegee. Then the royalty varies ? Mr. Bache. Yes, sir; I think it varies considerably. Senator Beandegee. How much does it vary ? • Mr. Bache. Several cents a ton. Senator Beandegee. Well, what determines the royalty? Mr. Bache. It depends on how bad the man that wants the place wants it. Senator Beandegee. Well, what did you say the royalty was there ? Mr. Bache. In Illinois? Senator Beandegee. Yes, sir. Mr. Bache. Well, I said from 3 to 5 cents, or from 2 to 5 cents. Senator Beandegee. That is all. The Chaieman. Now, is there any further presentation to make on behalf of the coal operators? Others have spoken to me about this matter, and if there be any others who wish to be heard the committee will be glad to hear them. If not, we will pass on to some other mat- ters. Now, I see a gentleman before me who, when we adjourned for dinner, was very anxious to say something to the committee about Redoak, I believe. Have you something you would like to present in reference to that matter, or anything you wish to say to the com- mittee ? I think that is the gentleman there. STATEMENT OP CARSON L. DALTON, OF BEDOAK, IND. T. The Chaieman. State your name in full to the stenographer. Mr. Dalton. Carson L. Dalton. The Chaieman. Where do you reside? Mr. Dalton. In the town of Redoak. The Chaieman. Is that in the Indian Territory? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. You may proceed to make your presentation, but of course, we will ask you to be as brief as possible. Mr. Dalton. Now, the gentleman that was on the floor here and who spoke about the convention that was held here The Chairman. Do you refer to Judge Shepherd? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; he spoke about all the towns being invited to meet in those conventions. Well, I have been in Redoak about fifteen years and I come pretty nigh to knowing everybody there — well, in fact, there ain't anybody there I don't know, for I have been there ever since fifteen years ago the 8th day of this month, and I read the papers pretty regularly too, every week, and I never did see any statement in the papers about any convention being asked for to meet here, made up of people representing all these towns, and the first I heard of such a thing was about three weeks ago. As soon as we heard of it we went to work there in Redoak and we tried FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 839 to get all the land there was there and around there so we could tell all about it. Now, I want to say that we have the largest coal field there at and around Redoak that there is in the Territory. It is 4 J miles wide and 6 miles long, and there is but one lease on it and that Mr. Duncan and Bache have. This man that spoke last is one of them. They have the only lease there is in that field there at Red- oak. There is but the one lease in township 6, range 21, northeast 36, and the town Of Redoak is on 34, 2i miles south of Lamed. Well, it is 2 miles south and 2J miles north of Redoak, that field is. What we wish to say to the committee is simply this, that we think it would be to the commercial interest of not only Redoak, but to the railroad and to the farming interests around that country if the top of that land was sold. As I said a while ago^ — The Chairman. You think it would be to their interest to do what ? Mr. Dalton. To sell that segregated land in a lump. There is nothing but segregated land around there and it is all over this coimtry but that segregated land and nothing can be done by no one the way it is now. It is a skeleton with me that I have slept with and thought over it and worried about it till I haven't any peace any more, and it is the same way with all the people around there. We have all worried and fretted over it until we don't know any more where we are at, and if something ain't done with it there will soon be more call for a lunatic asylum down here than anything else, and the first thing the United States Government will have to do will be to take care of a lot of lunatics. Now, that is about what my people down there told me to tell you when they learned I pro- f)osed to come up here and tell you gentlemen about it. I ain't a earned man and I ain't no public speaker, but this thing has got to be more almost than I can carry around comfortably, and I just thought I'd come here and spit it out. It kind of makes me good to be able to tell it to some gentlemen who have the right and the power to do things. We have so long been having things done by a lot of fellows down there in Washington who'd never come out here to see for themselves that we are getting mighty tired. Now, you are here and you'll hear lots of things that will come might near bein' the truth, and I propose to tell you just how we feel about it. Lots of these other fellows that will talk to you, they'll be dip- lomatic and smooth, but they won't tell you the truth. They'll be afraid of hurtin' some of them fellows feelin's at Washington, but I'll tell you the truth. The conditions are unbearable. Now, here is something that I have drawn up that is supposed to represent Redoak. It is mighty plain to me, but it mayii't be as plain to anybody else. Anyway, this is supposed to be Redoak here on section 34, and here is the railroad crossin' here, and here is the part of the section where the town is in. The Chairman. Well, what do you people down there want to do ? Mr. Dalton. Well, we want this town and the land around here laid off in 10-acre lots so that a poor man can get a lot, and we think that that is" about all one man can look after anyway, for there can be a mighty lot of stuff raised on a 10-acre lot if it is handled right. Plenty of people will tell you that it ought to be cut up into big farms of 160 acres or so, and that is what a man should have, but we think down our way that 10 acres is enough and all a man can handle. I'll bet I can raise more truck on 10 acres and make more g40 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. money out of it than lots of them will off their 160 acres, and instead of having one man with a great big farm, two-thirds of which he won't do anything with, you might have 16 men with 10 acres each, and each usmg every inch of it. "Well, that is what we want, laid off in 10-acre lots and a lot sold to each man, and no more than one to a man. We want one tier of lots laid off that way all around the town, and a second tier of lots 20 acres each laid off outside of that, and if you must have these great big farms 'we ask that none of them exceed 160 acres. "We ain't kickin' against a man having 160 acres if he'll use it, but the trouble is there's so cussed many people in this country that want land that there won't be half enough to go round if it is cut up in these big lots. This is about the last time a poor man will have any show to get anything in this country and we think it is about time he had his chance, for if he don't get it now he never will. The Chairman. Now, I would like you to tell me what a man can do with a 10-acre lot? Mr. Dalton. Do you know what this country will do down here if you give it a chance? I can tell you what a man can do with it; but probably you don't want to hear me, for if I'd undertake to tell you all he could do it would take me half the night. It would surprise you to know just what the ground down here will do when a fellow tickles it just right. The main thing, though, is that we are a lot of poor fellows, and we ain't able to buy more than 10 acres, but there is nary one of us but what can do that. A one-handed man can cultivate a 10-acre lot and he will make more stuff on it and make it pay better than he would on a 20-acre lot, and, as I said, lots more than most people would on 160 acres. I don't know much about political economy, but what I do know tells me that the best thing is to get as many people on the land as possible — that the people are more comfortable and happier and wealthier. There is a migthy lot of people in this big country of ours, but the trouble with them is that they are spread out so thin that they don't make a good showing nohow. Another thing that I think is a good thing why a man should own his own ground is the fact that he will take better care of it if it is his own than he will it it is rented ground. When it is his own he manures it and takes care of it, and helps it along, and if it is rented he goes right after everything that is in sight and don't give it no sort of a chance He takes care of his own little piece of ground, for that is the place that is his home, and any man takes a pride in his home and makin' it look well. Out there in our country it is so scattered with people — in some places there is plenty of them, and in other places there ain't any, and so in some places it is hard to get a school for the children, and plenty of them are growing up without any education at all. Some people will get an education wherever they are, and others, if they get any at all, you have to almost pound it into them with a club. But, I say, if that land is cut up in small tracts so that poor men can buy it, they will all manage to get a piece, and all these renters that there are scattered around over the Territory, and over this segregation, will go out and buy himself a home. It will often be a small one, but it will be his home, and they will make it best renting for a share of the crop every time. There is people liv- ing in our little town that go out now 4 or 5 miles every day to a piece FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. 841 of land thfiy have rented, and they lose so much time at it that they can't do much. The worst thing is the condition we are in about taxes. We haven't any land that we can tax. So we haven't any money to run our schools. The Government gives us a little, but it don't count for much. We ain't able to go down in our pockets and put up the money to run the schools, when all that land around •there don't pay a cent of taxes. We haven't got any kind of a Government, only a little kind of a local agreement about the way things will be done. I think we do pretty well considering, and we think we have just about as law abiding a little community as they have anywhere. I think that if this land was subdivided up into these little tracts of, say, 10 acres, by diversifying our crops we could do a whole lot better than we can now by going out 4 or 5 miles to farm 20 acres. I would like the chance of trymg it once anyway. If it don't work, things would find their level anyway in a little while, and we would either have more land or none at all. I am not afraid, though, of how it would turn out. The Chairman. How large is Redoak? Mr. Dalton. There is just 1275 acres of land that is set apart there as a town site, and that has all been bought up. The Chairman. How many people is there there? Mr. Dalton. There is something between 200 and 250 people there. The Chairman. Between 200 and 250 inhabitants ? Mr. Dalton. Yes, that is what we have; somewhere between 200 and 250 inhabitants in the town. It has been running on for the last fifteen years with somewheres between 200 and 600 people in it. When the mills were running there there was about 600 people there, but they are shut down now and I don't suppose there is over 225 people there now. When we incorporated we had only 225 people, and that is about all we have to-day. When the Curtis bill was passed for this country it shut out the mills The Chairman. It "shut out" what? Mr. DixTON. The sawimlls; it shut them out of doing business down here. The Chairman. What were the sawmills doing? Mr. Dalton. Cutting timber and sawing it, of course. The Chairman. It was in a timbered country? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; there is some pretty good timber around there, but not as much as there used to be. The Chairman. Then Redoak is in a timbered country? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; there is some mountains around it where they cut timber for lumber. The Chairman. So then if there was 600 people there at Redoak when the mills were running and only about 225 now, there was some 300 or 400 people there who were dependent on the mills ? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; there was as many as 600 of them working in the nulls and the farms around there. These people work these farms around there, but they live in town for the purpose of trying to get a home and because there is some kind of society in the town, which there isn't on the farm, and then oftentimes the improvements on the farm are so bad that no one will live on them. Improvements ain't kept up out there. No one will try to keep them up the way things are. Lots of people came in there and bought them a little bit of land and built themselves a little home and worked in the mills, but 842 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. now there ain't any work to do, so the people want to get a chance to buy a little piece of land that they can do something with and get a good chance to pay for, and make themselves a permanent home. If it is necessary they will get out of town if they can get a farm that is their own. Now, these are the kind of people that sent me up here to tell their story to you. They are all poor men like myself. They have made out a list of the land that each one has and what it is worth about and so on, and I have not got that here with me, for we mailed it a week ago last Monday to Mr. Shepherd, but he tells me that he has not got it yet, so it must have gone astray somehow in the mails. On that segregated land, when it was segregated on that 6-mile strip of coal land that is 6 miles long and 4 J miles wide, there was 1,500 acres under cultivation, and it was all fenced ia pretty good shape, but since the land was segregated it has not been taken any kind of care of, and the fences have all fallen down and rotted ; the fences and improvements have all gone down to a considerable extent. Every- thing is goiag to decay and ruin, for nobody wiU do anything. If we could get this segregated land sold, or some kind of a deal could be made so the farmers could buy it, it would be a great thing for the country. You would not know that country in five years if that was done. It would be a great thing for the commercial interests of the whole country here, especially for the farming classes, and where you find the farming class of people prosperous you will find the commer- cial classes prosperous, too. Now, we don't want anybody under any circumstances to have more than 160 acres of this land, and every time we want the Choc- taws — the Indians — to have the preference right to buy their 160 acres if they want to do it. We want them to have the preference every time. We want them to have a square deal. It is their land, anyway, and if they want to buy it let them do it, and pay for it, for of course, they will sometime or other get that money back, for it would belong to the nation. Now, there is one man that I know of right close to Redoak there, who before this treaty was made turned in and gave $10,000 for a farm with a fine house and fine improvements on it. It is a fine hay farm. Now, that man bought that to make it his home, and along came this segregation treaty and he was hung up and did not have anything, not even the improvements that he paid for. Now, I think when this land is sold that that man ought to be permitted to buy that farm for what it is worth and get credit for what he paid for these improvements. He ought to be allowed to make his home there, and so ought any- body else like him, for he is not the only one that is in the same fik. These people ought to be allowed to buy their land at the appraised value and if the improvements are appraised, too, they ought to be allowed to buy it and get credit for what they paid for the improve- ments. There is several of the Choctaws there, too, that want to make that place their home. They have lived all their lives there and they like it and want to stay there. The Chairman. Then your idea is that the man that is occupying the land is the man to have it ? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; the land he is on he ought to have. The Chairman. The land he is occupying as a home? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; the land that he is occupying and cultivat- ing he should have for his home. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 843 The Chairman. Of course the way it is now nobody owns it ? Mr. Dalton. No^sir; but the Indian who had it before it was segre- gated should have it. The Government said when they set this land aside that they would value these improvements and pay for them, and they did put a valuation on them, but the Government has not paid for them as it promised it would do. The promise was that that would all be done and the money paid inside of twelve months, but it has been several years now since it was done and the money is not paid yet. The trouble is that nobody can do anything about improving any of the land, for anything they do now they know they won't be paid for, and they don't know how long they wiU be •allowed to enjoy it, and the consequence is that the whole country is going down and backward all the time. It is a deplorable condition we are in. It couldn't be worse. Now I believe I am as liberal a man in my views as there is in the world and I don't want a nickel from either a wliite man or a Choctaw that I don't give good value for, so I say the Choctaw should have the preference right to buy any of these places he wants to buy. Now there is lots of these people that are living on this land wanted it listed to them, and they wanted it fixed so they would have the first right to buy it at its appraised valuation, but I couldn't see it that way and lots of my people held with me in that view, for we thought that as it was the Choctaw who had put these improve- ments on the land in the first place that he should have the right first of all to buy it if he wanted to. The people who held the other way said that the Choctaw was going to be paid for the improvements and the man that bought the land would have to pay for them in addition to what he paid for the land, but we met that with the argument that they hadn't been paid and God only knew when they would be, and in any case they never would be paid half what the improvements were worth, for it was a case where they have to take just what they are offered. There is no appeals, it is take it or leave it, and I know cases myself where the appraised value of the improvements were not anything near half what it cost to make them. The Chairman. What would 'that land bring ? Mr. Dalton. Well, in 10-acre lots, at a good, fair valuation, it would bring |20 an acre, and if it goes in 160-acre lots it would be about $10 an acre. By cutting it up in little lots the poor common , people can go out and buy a lot and afford to pay double for it what it would brmg in the big lots, and get themselves a home. Any of them almost can pay $200 for a 10-acre lot, but they couldn't pay $1,600 for 160 acres. Any of us wiU be able to go and get us a home if you put it down to one lot for a man. Senator Teller. He would be able to afford it if he could get 10 acres for $200 ? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir; and if he did not have.it there is plenty of men there that has the money and they would lend it to him. The Chairman. You think there are many men who could buy 10 or 20 acres at $20 an acre that could not buy 160 acres at $10 an acre? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir. I know it. I am one of them myself that could buy 10 acres or perhaps 20, but I know I couldn't buy 160 acres. Senator Teller. Is it poor land or is it rich land ? Mr. Dalton. Well, it is only tolerable. It is land that wiU make all the way from half a bale to three-quarters of a bale of cotton to 844 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. the acre or perhaps a bale of cotton to the acre; but on the average it takes about 3 acres to make a bale. That is according to the way they cultivate it; but I believe if the land had half a chance and was cultivated right that it would make a bale every year and often a bale and a half to the acre. Senator Tellee. How about corn ? Mr. Dalton. Well, it will make from 15 bushels up. Senator Teller Per acre ? Mr. Dalton. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Well, that is not much of a yield ? Mr. Dalton. Well, I am giving you the facts. That is the way it does now. I am giving you the facts. I ain't exaggerating any-- thing Senator Teller. I don't believe you are exaggerating anything, and I can assure you that I know of one member of the committee who has already duly credited you with that virtue Mr. Dalton. I aim to tell you things just as they are. Now I say the average is from 15 bushels of corn up to the acre, but I want to. tell you tnat there has been patches oi com down there that has Yielded 45 and 50 or 60 bushels to the acre; but, as a rule, in the ottoms if you get from 15 to 35 bushels to the acre you can consider that you are getting a good crop. Now to show you what that land will do, I'll tell you about an acre of land there m Redoak that lies down below a hill there, and up on the sides of the hill there is several barns and, of course, there is manure around them and 'other fertil- izers, like there always is aroilnd barns, and the rains washed, that down on this land and covered it pretty well, and that was planted to corn and taken the right kind of care of, and the result was that an acre of that land produced more than 100 bushels of com. Now that piece of land was just like river-bottom land — it has been manured for fifteen years right along — but there is no comparison between it and the general run of the land down there. As I say, the average is from 15 to 35 bushels an acre. The people down there don't know howto cultivate land, and there is not very much to stimulate them. I believe if that land is taken care of it will raise just as much corn as it does in Kansas. I believe all it wants is the right kind of treatment. Senator Teller. You think if it is treated right and cultivated right that it will yield as well as land anywhere 1 Mr. Dalton. I do. Take that acre of ground that I was telling you about. It had the right kind of treatment, it was tickled just right, and Kansas nor any other place can beat the yield it gave. Now this land that I have been talking about is just as good as river- bottom land, and it can be got for from $10 to |20 an acre, and it will improve every year with the right kind of cultivation, for every- thing you put on it will stay there. Down here they seem to think that they can keep on forever taking from the land without giving it anything back. Well, they can't do it here any more than they can anywhere else. Now the object I had in view in coming here was to tell you these things. I suppose I have not done very well, but I have given you the best that was in me and I hope it has made an impression on you. As I said before, we all went in there and hoped that we were getting a home. As it is, we haven't got any- thmg. We don't know that we ever will, but the faith is strong in FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 845 US that the Go^erpnent will do the right thing by us. We want a fair deal and that is all. We want things fixed so we can live reason- ably close together and have our schools available where we can send our children. We have had a pretty good school for the last fifteen years, but out in the neighborhood around us it is so thinly settled that they couldn't have any school. Our town is small, but it is honest. It is filled with law-abiding people, if they are poor. While we are poor, I feel that there is not a man iu it who could not go and buy a tract of 10 acres of this land. I am poor myself and haven't any money, but I know that if that land is sold in the way I suggest that I will go out and buy one or two of them, and pay for it. I haven't any doubt on that point. Now I think you know my views, so I'll say no more about it. Thank you, gentlemen. ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF HON. J. H. SHEPKEBD. Mr. Shepherd. The question has been asked by the committee about what could be done with 10 acres of this land. I have a state- ment of a farmer here in this vicinity who has farmed 25 acres, and here is a true and correct statement of what was raised on the tract of 25 acres this year. This is what was sold, actually sold, and the money received for it. This little farm is 2 miles west of South McAlester. Here is the statement: Turnips $29. 35 Corn in roasting ears 133. 30 Cabbage 19. 80 Radishes 31. 20 Tomatoes 22. 65 Beans 10. 50 Beets 1. 95 Cucumbers 9. 95 Peas 7.55 Lettuce 4.40 Sweet potatoes 47. 60 Onions 40. 00 Squash 6. 65 Peppers 3. 35 Hogs 153.80 Chickens 21. 80 Butter from 4 cows 76. 95 Eggs (345 dozen) 71. 50 Cotton 200. 00 making a total of $782 sold this year by a man from 25 acres of this land, and that man worked his own land and raised, the crop himself. The Chairman. There are some gentlemen here who wish to pre- sent their views upon a particular subject, but I think it would prob- ably be well to defer that matter until later. If the Eev. Dr. Murrow is present we will hear what he has to say. Senator Teller. I don't believe he has come up yet. He was downstairs awhile ago, and if he is sent for I have no doubt that he will be ready. The Chairman. Will someone kindly notify Doctor Murrow that the committee is ready to hear him ? In the meantime I would ask if the Reverend McKinney is in the room ? [No response.] Mr. J. H. Shepherd. I would like it if time is given to Dr. E. N. Wright to say a few words to you. He is here. §46 PI'^E CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. I see there are several delegations here to present a certain matter to the committee, and I would say to them that if they would come here in the morning we' will take Up these other mat- ters; but there are certain things pertaining more or less to a certain line of investigation which we would like to clean up as we proceed. We have to-morrow the delegation from the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, with Governor Johnson and Governor McCurtain, and as that would probably consume considerable time it would be inadvisable to go into it now, so we will take up matters that can be disposed of this evening. I think it would be better to take up all these Indian dele- gation matters in one day. There is another delegation here which wishes to be heard, represented by Mr. Howe, I believe. Is» he present ? Senator Teller. He, too, is down in the office, I believe. The Chairman. Mr. McAlester will fill in the gap and address the committee. STATEMENT OF MB. J. J. McALESTEK, OF McALESTEB, IND. T. The Chairman. You live here at McAlester? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you lived here? Mr. McAlester. Since 1866. I was about one of the first white men down here. I have lived right here since 1866, but I first came to this country in 1862. The Chairman. You may proceed with your statement. Mr. McAlester. Gentlemen, I must offer an apology for appearing before this committee, for I feel that I will not be able to express myself in such a manner as to leave a good impression, and of course that is what everybody who comes before you tries to do. I have lived down in this country a long while, and have roughed it so much that I am not qualified to speak in the way that some of these gentle- men have spoken — I am too old to learn now — but what I will say will have one merit, and that is that it will be my best. I hope you will be able to understand me, and if I don't make myself plain don't have any hesitancy about asking me for an explanation. Now, gentlemen, like a great many of my friends who have been here before you, and will after this be before you, I have a very simple proposition to offer for your consideration. I don't know that it is very important, although many of us down here think it is, and prob- ably it will appeal to you in the same way; at any rate, as I said, it has the merit of being simple, and it won't take me long to place it before you. The proposition I have to offer you, and I want to impress it upon you very earnestly, is the proposition that is involved in these segregated coal lands. In the beginning, I invested many a dollar in the development of these coal mines. I am the pioneer in this coal field. I am the first man that ever dug out a pound of coal in this country and trans- ported it somewhere else. Others before me dug out some for local use, but I am the first man that took it out and sent it to Sedaha to show the people what it was, and the Missouri, Kansas and Texas road was building then, and they came down here with their road and found that the coal was here i ust as I said it was, and that it was good coal, the best soft coal in this whole country anywhere. So when FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 847 they came here I was here before them and had cast my lot here. Well, it was not long after that before there was combinations formed for the purpose of controlling this coal field, but it was down here in the Indian country and they could not do much. Well, time passed on and then the treaty of Atoka was made, and the coal syndicate and coal operators made it about to suit them- selves. I don't know what complaint they had to make to you about what has happened them down here, nor do I care, for that is some- thing that don't interest me at all. It is neither here nor there with me. I want to say this, however, that conditions have changed in the past few years, and that they have changed very materially and that the profits are not in the coal business that there used to be — not by any means. The time was when a man could make a good profit on his business — if it was the coal mining business; but times are different now, and he can't do it the way he used to. As I said, I don't know what complaints they made before you, but I want to tell you if that was one of their complaints they told you the truth. When a man goes into this business and invests a large sum of money iato it — and to go into it right down here he has to invest a large sum before he will get a dollar out of it — when he has done that he finds that he has not a stock of goods, but a hole in the ground. In every other line but mining a man has something to show for his money, but in the coal business all he has is this hole in the ground, and then he has to go to work to produce his stock. All the money he spent was simply preliminary to getting things iu shape so he could produce the goods. They are there in the ground, generally, 'and he has to dig them out. Sometimes they are not in the ground just the way he expected they would be, and their character may be a little different, but these are all chances of the business that he must take. This is preliminary, merely. Now we have a little city built up here that we are a little proud of. It has my name, and I am proud of that, but it is really a nice, enterprising little city. It has been created and built out of the earnings of a great many men. Now, the point of my tale is this, that this city is surrounded by acres and acres, hundreds and thousands of them, and it is all segregated and, I say, it is wrongfully segregated. There is thousands and thousands of acres of land segregated down here that never should have been treated so at all. It is a great mistake that ought to be corrected, and it can't be done any too soon. Take that tract of land that is segregated and laid off in a zigzag shape up here north or northeast a little of McAlester. That is segregated as coal land and it will never be miaed in the world, and anybody ought to know it. "Why the coal there is as straight up and down in the ground as that piece of paper The Chairman. It lies vertically ? Mr. McAlestee. Yes, sir; absolutely straight up and down, as near as possible, and it is entirely worthless for mining, for nobody can mine it and sell it for what it costs to dig it out. But it must be segregated, for Mr. Taff said it was coal land — and it is coal land too, but coal land that is absolutely worthless as a mining proposition. There is not enough coal land there to employ five men. It is a use- less proposition. Mr. Clark, here, is a miner and he understands mining propositions.' He knows that it will pay to follow a vein of copper or gold or silver that stands that way, for that is the way they 348 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. are usually found, as I understand it; but he knows and any miner knows that a vertical vein of coal is no use as a mining proposition ia a country that is full of coal veins that lay all right for mining. Any mining man knows that who has had any practical experience, and I know it. When Mr. Taff investigated this he said it was min- ing land and I told him it wasn't. I was on the contrary side and I am on it yet, and always will be when anyone^ advances such a fool proposition as that. So, I assert, that was an unlawful and improper segregation. Now, I want to htirry along and get through with my talk. I am not going into the question of describing all this segregation, for I don't know that I could do it. I think I am well qualified to do it as anyone on earth, but it is a thing that is so fearfully and wonderfully devised that I hesitate to undertake it. It would take me a week to go over it and show the glaring wrongs and injustice that has been done to people. There is tens of thousands of acres that have no more business beiag segregated than any land where everybody knows coal does not and can not exist. Now, I won't talk on that any longer. What I want this committee to do is to recommend to Congress that it sells this whole thing — cleans it all out — sell it lock, stock and barrel; sell it on the same principle and in the same manner that town sites are sold. I had a two or three or four days wrestle with this question at Atoka one t im e, and several tussles with it since that time, and it never has turned out right. It has always been a thing to worry and vex, and so I say get rid of the thing, clean it out and have done with it. I was up there at Atoka and appeared before them and told them what I wanted, and they said that I was always wanting something, and that I was a troublesome citizen, for I was always kicking and wanting something. Well, I guess I have been, but How that I am getting along in years I would like to break myself of the habit before I die, and I can't do it as long as this thing is left to rile me. We tried this proposition many years ago of keeping the white people out of here, and we would send them away — I'll say they would send them away — but they would come back and every time bring two or three others with them, and at last they got so numerous that they couldn't be all sent away, and it was at last seen that they were here to stay. That is a characteristic of the white race, when they get a foothold they stay. Well, this is a digression. Up there at Atoka Mr. Armstrong asked me — he said to me : ' ' What do you want to do on this town- site proposition?" and I said that "I want half the increased price for the benefit of the occupants, and I want five years to pay for it;" and I said " I want to supply the town-site land and be able to give the man that buys any of it a title, and a good title. I don't want it left in such shape that when a man buys a piece of it some one can come in afterwards and raise trouble for him about his title. I want it fixed so he wiU have a good title to it and know just what he has, and he will feel like going ahead and making his home there." That is what I told them, for I wanted a man to feel or be able to say years after- wards, when he had come and made his home there and reared his children, that this was his and this was his neighbor's, and that there would not be any doubt or objection raised to it from any source, and that was the way it was done. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 849 Now, SO much for that. But to return to this segregated land propo- sition; you go out here on the south side of McAlester and you find this segregated land there, and if you were to follow that coal from its outcrop to that point on the dip of the vein it would be 2 J miles to the coal, if there is any there at all. Now, why was that segregated? What account is that or will it ever be to the mining interests of this country? It is a fact that there is a little skimmer of coal through there, but it is not worth anything from any practical standpoint; but all the same we are not allowed to use the land. Now, take this map and you will see that right in here there is 8 miles that there is not a bit of coal in workable quantities. Now, I did not think at the start of coming before you gentlemen and speaking a word about this, but there has been so many blunders made down here that I have seen, so much has been said that did not have sense, and so much that was worse than nonsense, that I have to say something about it. I don't know that you gentlemen will understand me, for I speak in such a rough, uncouth way, but this is the most important matter we have confronting us down here, and it is so important that I must speak of it. This matter of the segregation of this land and the restoration of it, or the surface of it, to usefm purposes is the most important question that we have to deal with. It means more to this country than all the coal there is in it, ten times over. The time was when I thought that about all there was to it was the coal, but as I have grown older I have learned many things, and this is one of them, that if this land was peopled with a sober, industrious population living on their own farms of a reasonable area, and I mean by that not too large, the annual production of it would exceed many times over any pos- sible production of coal, and would yield a great deal more to the wealth of the whole community; and as this committee is here from the Senate and will make a report direct to the Senate, and in that way to Congress, it is important that you get all the information you can. So I say again that the proper thing to do is to put this land up and sell it in the same way that town sites are sold. The first condition of such a sale should be that the purchaser must pay something down to show his intention of bujdng it and paying for it. If he comes to the mark and makes his first payment, then I say let him have from three to five years to pay the balance without interest. Now if you do that I will warrant that all this land will be sold at a fair average price and that every purchaser will pay for it. I will warrant that; every man of them will pay if sold on those terms. This gentleman that spoke before me was in favor of 10-acre tracts; don't do anything of the kind. Give them 40 or 60 or 80 or 100, and so on up to 160 acres. Give them enough to make a home. These lands are not as valuable nor as productive as some people say they are. I have been here nearly forty-five years and 1 know they are not. No man can make any kind of a home or decent living on 10 acres. He needs at least 40 or more acres. There is land down here that will raise a bale of cot- ton to the acre, lots of it, but on the other hand there is a great deal more of it that won't, and under any system of farming won't do it; so on the average it takes 3 acres to produce a bale of cotton. Of corn we make from 15 to 40 bushels on an average; but some years we have droughts and we don't make anything. The truth might as well S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 55 850 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. be told. This is not a paradise, either earthly or any other kind. It stacks up just about with the average in this western country, not as good as some and a whole lot better than some. On the whole, I think it's away above the average; but it don't raise any more phe- nomenal crops than any other section. Now there is one tract of land I want particularly to call your attention to. I want you to pay particular attention to it. Now here, gentlemen, is a tract of land that I ought to know something about. I have spent not less than $20,000 prospecting around here, and all I have to show for it is a hole in the ground. Now, my dear sirs, there is not a piece of coal, not a vein of coal, in it from top to bottom that it will pay to mine, and there is 27,000 acres of it that is segregated there in that one place, all of which as coal land is tofally worthless. That is in the Stigler district. Now here is the Massey district — it is a piece of ground that I know well. Now you can find coal in it, but you would not have it. No, sir; no one would pay anything for it. I know something about coal, and I would not take it as a gift Senator Long. Is this going into the record ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Well, if you want it to go in the record, you will have to talk slower and more distinctly. Mr. McAlester. Oh, that stenographer is on to his job, and lie will get what I say. They all can do that for I talk slow. I am easy to take. Well, gentlemen, here is my proposition: I'll state it again, and get through as quick as possible; here is my proposition: reseg- regate this land and cut out these good and valuable fields of coal, for there is valuable coal in it. Cut out the parts of it that we know are good and continue the segregation on them, but don't take about a quarter of the Choctaw nation, as at present — cut all that out and pre- serve it. Don't intrude on them; give the operator all he wants and five it to him willingly, so he won't complain, and when he finds that e has no more coal or hasn't coal that it will pay to work he can give up what he don't want, and then that can be disposed of, the whole thing if necessary, for if there is no workable coal in it there would be no use reserving anything, and as far as the rest of it is concerned, outside of this resegregation of the good coal land that is pretty well known now, sell the whole thing outside of it, bag and baggage, and iadeed I am in favor of selling the whole thing, lock, stock, and bar- rel, rather than having any more of the kind of times we have been having over this segregation. But do something, gentlemen. You can ordain the sale of the surface rights. That is easy. It has been done before. This Government knows how to sell large bodies of land. It is to be done in the Kiowa country in a couple of weeks, and what can be done there can be done here. Now I am not referring to the places where we know there is coal and good coal that is at too great a depth. The Chairman. Well, I don't know whether you are aware of it or not, but the last session of Congress appropriated $50,000 for a reex- amination of this segregated tract, and upon investigation the Secre- tary of the Interior found from the geological survey that it would take something like four years to make the investigation along the lines indicated, and would cost about $250,000 to m&e it. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 851 Mr. McAlester. Well, what of that? You can sell the surface rights to the land without an examination, but if it comes to making a proper examination as to the coal you can't get through with it in ten years. It is a big proposition, and it ought to be investigated properly, and to do that it will take ten years. The Chaieman. Well, is it your theory that only the lands should be segregated that have coal on them — that are sure enough coal lands? Mr. McAlester. The land with good coal in it ? The Chairman. Yes, sir; the land that has coal in it in commercial quantities for mining ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is the land that should be ascertained and re-segregated ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And it is your idea that in such cases the mineral right and the surface should be sold separately? Mr. McAlester. There is a certain amount of the land that these valuable coal bodies are on, and it is more than proper that the mine operators should have that from the fact that they are paying more than double the amount for it that would be necessary to place it in a different attitude as farming land, hence the best of the land that possesses coal can well afford to remain without being disturbed, and they should be allowed to hold them — that is, the main bodies of the valuable coal lands in their leases, but there is other pieces and ends and tails and pieces of land in their leases that the operators don't care a whit about, for they know now that there is not coal enough in them to be worth anything, and they are willing to let them go any time — in fact when a mine operator finds that there is not coal in commercial quantities on the land he hasn't any further use for it, for he is a miner and not a farmer. To illustrate what I mean I will say, suppose Mr. Busby has a mine that he is going down in the ground with, or a mine that he has already down and is mining coal from it, and over here half a mile, say, there is a piece of ground, 40, 80, or 160 or more acres, and he knows that there is no coal on it at all, or if any that it is not worth mining and he would never work it — he knows that now — now he should have the right of selling the use of the surface of that and of the under part of it if he wants to during the life of his lease, or as long as he prosecutes work on the lease and make what he could out of it, for he has taken the lease and he has spent a large amount of money in developing it, and is paying revenue to the Choctaw Nation right along in the shape of royalty on his product, and they should not object — I think the Ghoctaw Nation should agree to it, and the Government should protect the lessee in it, for he has put a large amount of money into the thing. Senator Brandegee. I don't understand whether you want the surface sold with the mining right or not. Mr. McAlester. Well, we have an unjust segregation of land here. It is unreasonable and there is thousands of acres that haven't any coal at all and thousands of acres more that have only this skirn- ming of coal, and I say that where that condition exists, or there is just a little piece of traveling coal on it, it is not all valuable for minuig, and the mine owners will select the part that is valuable and 852 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. they will show where the lines are that mark out the coal; and I say lots of times there is so little coal on it that it is not worth while putting a cloud on the title for the purpose of protecting the mining right. The Chairman. Well, let us suppose this: That the land of Mr. Busby, where he has a 960-acre lease valuable for the coal that is under all of iti Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You think there is a certain percentage of the sur- face that he needs to conduct his mining operations, and that the balance of the surface ought to be sold separately ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir; give him the full share of the surface that he needs— give it to him outright, don't make him pay for it— he is already paying the Choctaw Nation in royalties all that it is worth. Give him a show and encourage him, for he needs it in these days. Let him have it gratis, whatever he needs to do his mining on, to put up his machinery, tipples, and buildings, and then sell the balance of it to some farmer for a farm. It won't hurt the farmer a bit to have a good coal mine next door. I think the big majority of them would welcome the chance to get it. I think it would make the land more valuable. I don't think any coal-mine operator will object to that if he is given enough, but let him have enough and plenty, and don't cut him down to a little bit of a narrow slip. The Chairman. I think our proposed present legislation has been— well, our legislation is based on the theory of 20 per cent of the area being suitable or sufficient to conduct mining operations. Mr. McAlester. It seems to me that that is ample. It is probably more than would be required. Now, 1 object to the way my friend talks of the segregated land The Chairman. You mean Judge Shepherd ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir. I can't agree with him in his plan of selling these lands — the surface rights to them. He thinks he knows all about it, but he don't. Theory is one thing and practice another. Now, I never had any experience with the sale of between four and five hundred thousands of acres of land at one swoop, but I have had some experience in selling town sites — establishing them, laying them out, and selling them. The first proposition was that it should be all cash down. Well, how many of our people would be able to buy any- thing if he had to pay cash down for it? Not many. How many of the people would be able to buy town lots and pay all cash for them? It is not 1 out of 50, and it would be the same way with farms. Now, 1 in 50 would be able to do it. When this place was sold I insisted that we have five years in which to pay for them, but they put it at three years, and in that time every, one of us have paid. We did bet- ter than I expected. I wanted to give them plenty of time. I thought they would probably need five years, but three was enough. Sell this land, but don't have any sealed bids about it. I would like to agree with my friend, the Judge, on that proposition, but I can't. He says they would combine and buy as they pleased if there was an open auction. I guess he will find there will be so many after this land that there won't be any chance for combinations, and I believe it would sell for far more if you let the people compete openly for it. Go right out here and let the Choctaw and Chickasaw commissioners and the United States Commissioner say: We have this land for sale; FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 853 now, who wants it, and how much will you give for it? Sell it just like you would sell a pony or anything else at auction. Depend on it, they will pay more for it ; sure. The Chairman. Well, then, your plan is to sell it at public auc.tion ? Mr. McAlester. Every time; yes, sir. The Chairman. Would, you sell it in 160-acre tracts? Mr. McAlester. No, sir; I would divide it up in tracts to suit con- ditions and the land. Here is a strip of good land, I would divide that up into smaller lots, say 40-acre tracts, and sell them that way. Out here farther is a big hill, it is not worth 10 cents an acre, but I would put that in with some of the good land if necessary and make a tract that would be part good and part bad. That hill land is not worth 10 cents an acre for agricultural purposes, and I would divide it up that way. That hill land is gooa grazing land during a good deal of the year. It may dry out a little quicker than the bottom land, but it is good grazing land generally, and a man who has a farm generally wants a place for his live stock to run, cattle and horses. In that way you are working off the poor land with the good and it would all be taxable. If these people can get a certain amount of good land along with that that is not so good it would be acceptable to them; in fact the people would like to nave it, for they wouldn't have to pay as much for it. I believe that plan would bring two-thirds more than it would the other way. The Chairman. You mean by selling it openly at auction ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir; just go right in and bid on the land you want just like you bid on a pony at an auction. This sealed-bid busi- ness is a fake. It was tried on this segregated land. Mr. Hitchcock tried it and he probably has his opinion of it by this time. Some peo- ple bid on this and others on that and the result was that nothing was satisfactory and he turned the whole business down. I think he did right, too. I don't care personally about the land that I bid on; as far as that is concerned it was not worth 10 cents an acre, but it was close to town here and we thought we could peddle it out and make something on it. That was the only idea I had. The Chairman. Do you know what the average price of the sealed bids were that were opened on this proposition? Mr. McAlester. They ran from |8 to $20 an acre. I think I made the cheapest bid that was put in. There was not anyone bid cheaper than I did, and my bid was $8.50 an acre. The Chairman. Now, Mr. McAlester, what in your judgment is the average value per acre for agricultural purposes of the whole of this segregation of 445,000 acres ? But first I will ask you to state what, in your judgment, what proportion of it in your judgment is average agricultural land? Mr. McAlester. Well, sir; I am like Davy Crockett, you have got me up a tree and I don't know. The Chairman. Well, you have some idea or impression as to that, haven't you? Mr. McAlester. Oh, yes; but it is a guess. Well, I'd say half of it. The Chairman. You think half of it is average agricultural land ? Mr. McAlester. Yes, sir; about that. The Chairman. Well, what would be your idea as to the average value of the part of it that is average agricultural land ? g54 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. Mr. MoAlester. Well, there you have me again. I'd say any where from— oh, well, I'll say $10 or $12 an acre. That is my opinion It might be worth more, and on the other side it might not be wort] so much. We are going into statehood, and we are merging into th condition of every civilized community, where we will have to hav more jads than schoolhouses, and we will have roads and bridges ti build and county buildings of all kinds, and to do that it will nee( taxes, and I am afraid that if somethmg is not done to give us some thing to tax — something that we can get at — that the taxes that wil be levied on what we can get at is gomg to make the pld wagon rui mighty slow and feel mighty weak, and perhaps it will break dowi entirely before five years. You ought to take all that in consideraitio: and give us some relief with all these taxes facing us and things to do and I don't believe that if this land is sold and appraised that i should be appraised at any extravagant or fancy price. The peopl ought to be allowed to get it reasonable so they will come in here an( help us out, for we are going to need help, and the more we get th easier it will be. The Chairman. Is it not a fact, Mr. McAlester, that land that i subject to a heavy tax is not worth as much as land that is not subjec to a heavy tax ? In other words, is it not true that, all other thmgi being equal, the land that is taxed the lightest is worth most? Mr. McAlester. It is a self-evident proposition that it is not wort] as much to the owner. The Chairman. Is it not equally self-evident that it is not worth a much to the buyer? Is it not a fact that in buying land the pur chaser or would-be buyer always inquires about what the taxes ar and gives that matter due consideration? Mr. McAlester. Of course; I would do that. The Chairman. You would consider the rate of taxation and le that govern to a certain extent the price you would be willing to pay Mr. McAlester. Certainly; but we ain't thinking of troubles ai far afield as that down here. The troubles that are here, present now are the ones that bother us. We will meet that question like we hav( every other one, and we will get the best of it, like we have of all tb other troubles. Little things like that don't discourage us dowi here. Why, if we had been scared by troubles we would have chasec ourselves out of the Territory long ago. We have been up against i so long that we don't know how it will feel when we reach a state o equilibrium. Now, there is one thing I want to suggest to you, gentlemen, an( when the suggestion is made I don't know how it will sound to you but I am going to make it. I don't know how to go about it, hardly and perhaps when I get into it I will wish that I was out of it, and i may be that I won't know how to get out. Mr. Curtis says we hav to give thirty-three and one-third per cent off for a road. Some o our people think it should be paid for. If it is taken off the whole o the Five Tribes it is going to make a big volume of land. Some sa; they are willing to give it and others don't think they should b required to do it. That is for opening the roads. The Chairman. In other words they think that the burden of open ing the roads should be lifted from the individuals and left to th counties ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 855 Mr. McAlestee. Well, we think so. The Chairman. Well, I think the law as passed was that each man should only give so much land along the section line bordering his land for a road ? Mr. McAxESTEB. Well, yes Senator Teller. When a man buys a piece of land, he ought to give his share for a road along the section line. Mj. McAlesteb. Yes, sir; and I am mentioning that fact, for there are so many of them that think they ought not to do it. Senator Teller. That is what they had to do in Illinois originally. I know it, for I had to do it. I had to furnish the land and I was never paid anything for it. Somebody else entered it, and I found when I got it that I had to present the county with the road or half of it out of my land. Mr. McAlester. Well, that is the way it is here, and the people, or many of them, don't think it is right. Now, gentlemen, my last appeal to your attention is this : Take these unfairly segregat«d lands and cut them out from the segregation altogether and sell them. Sell all of the lands you possibly can; put as much land in the hands of the people as you can, and into the hands of people who will have to pay taxes on it. Get it out of the taxation- exemption column. Get it into the hands of people that will begin to pay taxes. At the present time when our State government goes into effect we are going to be hard run to get money to run the government. We have hundreds of acres — thousands of acres — of these unfairly segregated lands. Now I am not blaming Taff for what he did in connection with this segregation. He took a pony and went out and viewed the land and did the best he could. Probably at the time no one could have done better. He did not have the means or the force nor the time to do the work right. It would take years and a pile of money to make a proper examination and define the boundaries, and Mr. Taff had none of these facilities. Taflf went out and had to depend on what people Vi^ould tell him. One man would tell him this and another man would tell him that, and he did the best he could. He had no chance at all, and so it was natural that hundreds of acres should be unfairly segregated — get into it when they had no business there at all; but we will forget all of our troubles if you will give us a chance by letting people come in here and get this land and begin pay- ing their taxes so we will have a revenue. Now I am in earnest upon this matter. The sale of that land should be open and well adver- tised; it should be at public auction, and the land should as soon as possible be got into the hands of people who will bear their share of the public burdens of the government, both State and county. Now, my brother here (Mr. Shepherd) is responsible for this infliction. I had not thought of gomg before the committee and saying a word until I heard him talking about sealed bids, and I I got out on my pony right off. It is not my way of doing it, as we look on it from my side of tjie house, not at all, and that is the Choct^aw side, too. I want to see this thing, when it is done, closed up in three or five years, but it won't be done that way if it is brought up by way of sealed bids; and we won't get half as much for the land as we will if it is sold the other way. Senator Clark, of Montana. You are right about that proposition. Mr. McAlester. I know I am. Senator. That is all, gentlemen. 856 ^IVE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. STATEMENT OF THE REV. J. S. MTJBBOW. The Chairman. Doctor, I received word through a gentleman, to-day, that there were some matters which you desired to present to the committee which would be very instructive and or great interest to us, and that you were thoroughly prepared to present them ia an exhaustive form. If you are able to make that pre- sentation now we would be very glad to hear from you. First of all, state to the reporter your name, profession, or occu- pation; and the matters you are interested in may follow. Mr. MuBKOW. My name is J. S. Murrow. Mr. _ Chairman and gentlemen, I am very much interested in two things, and these things are the welfare, present and future, of the Indians of this Terri- tory, and particularly m the condition and comfort and welfare of their orphan children. The latter matter is the one that lies nearest to my heart, gentlemen, and is the one to which the latter part of a long life spent among these Indians has been devoted. Now those are the two matters that I would like to present 1?o you, gentlemen, and it is a matter that can't be presented m ten or fifteen minutes — therefore, before commencing, I would ask if time will be given me to make as full a presentation as to me seems necessary to do these most important subjects full and ample justice as far as in my power lies. The Chairman. Take your time, Doctor, and proceed in your own way with your statement. I am sure it will interest all the members of the committee. Mr. MxjRBOW. Thank you, sir. I think I will be able to satisfy you gentlemen, that I am not only competent to speak on these subjects, but also to testify as to the truth of every word and every statement I shall utter or make here. Preliminary to my statement, however, I trust that I will be pardoned if I indulge in a few preliminary words personal to myself and my record The Chairman. Yes, sir; we would like to know your history, for it would have a very material bearing on your statement. Mr. Murrow. In the year 1857, I left my home m Georgia under the appointment of the Domestic and Indian Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Conference and came the long way at that time to this Territory as a missionary to the Indians here. I came here, and — well, gentlemen, I have been faithful to my trust. One of the first sermons I preached to the Indians was on the text "For I deter- mined to know nothing among you but Jesus Christ and Him cruci- fied." "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life." "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season." These are the subjects that I preached on to these people all my life and the spirit which they breathe, and such as they have been the ruling motives of all my life among these people, for the last nearly fifty-six years among these people. They have at all times been the principles which have guided my conduct with these and all other peoples. I know these people, gentleirien. I know them as few men know. them. I know their hearts, their feelings, their motives, their hopes, and their aspirations and wishes. I know their weaknesses, their frailties, and their merits. I know them, gentlemen, for I have lived all these long years among them in good conscience until this day, and will continue to live with and among them as long as God vouchsafes me FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 857 permission to remain here on earth; and no man who knows me and them can truthfully say that I ever wronged them or one of them materially or morally in word, deed, thought, or act. I am impelled to say this so you may know I am competent to speak on this suhiect. Gentlemen, when I first came among these Indians in 1857, there was between fifty and sixty thousand of them in this Territory. There were few, veiy few, white people here. There were very few mixed bloods or half breeds. There was between five and six thou- sands of negroes, most of them nominal slaves of the Indians. When I came here I found these people in a prosperous condition. They lived ia plenty. Their needs were few and simple, and such as they were, were bountifully supplied. They had been outrageously wronged in their old homes away back there east of the Mississippi River, and they were deprived of the homes which they had made with their own hands over there. They came out to this country under the provisions of a treaty that was practically forced on them, and they had established themselves in this at that time compara- tively new home of theirs, and ia a few short years had established themselves ia peace, comfort, and plenty. They had established their farms, where they raised everything that was required to sup- ply their few and simple wants; they had erected suitable buildings; they had built and established their schools and educational system. They had invented their own alphabet — the Cherokee alphabet — a model of logical construction and simplicity, and had their books published ia that language, and also had their newspapers^ all of which was done iu the Cherokee language with type. This most marvelous production was something of their invention — of one of their tribe, Sequoyah, whose name deserves to go down in history as one of the greatest constructive geniuses of any age. So I say I found these people established here, cultured in many cases, pros- perous and independent. All these things they possessed before they were moved over here. These things they possessed in their old homes, and when they moved over here they did not lose any of it, but continued steadfastly pressing forward in the path which had been marked out by them in their old homes, toward the goal which means the establishment of a national identity. They came out to this country and steadily held before themselves this aim — this goal which they were striving so earnestly to reach. They came here and they did not ally themselves with the blanket Indians of the plains — the savages who lived so close to them in those days. They did not go on the warpath and take plunder from those weaker than themselves, and indulge in wild orgies of riot and blood. No, they did not do any of these things, but they rolled up their sleeves and pulled off their coats, and went to work with a will and a good cheerful heart like men, to make a home for themselves in this wilderness to which they had been exiled, and their spirits rose triumphant over every obstacle, and they made this wilderness blossom as the rose. This is no metaphor, no figure of speech; gentle- men. I know what I am talking about, gentlemen, for I was here in those days and I saw the country arid what had been done to it. I saw with these eyes the wonderful transformation that had been wrought by these red men in this wilderness. I say in all earnestness and truth, gentlemen, that at that time I never knew one single Indian family that did not own a home, and a good home, exactly suited to their 858 I'lVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. simple tastes; and in some cases homes pretentious and commodious enough to be a credit to any white family. Every man owned his own home, where he had his family clustered around him, with all the stock and everything to make life comfortable. The country was all improved in these settlements or towns, as they called them, with its churches and schools, and everybody living in peace, plenty, and happiness, and everyone enjoying the privilege which our declaration says is the birthright of every American. Now, that was the condition, gentlemen, when I first came here, and that condition continued until the time the war commenced. Then began the first of the conditions which, working continuously since that time, has at length wrought the destruction and downfall of the full-blood Indians. At that time nearly all were full bloods. There were very few others. But now, all you see in this land, which they fondly hoped was to be their heritage forever, is a little handful of Indians of the full blood, and oh, how fallen from their former high estate. Here they are yet, poor and shiftless and down- trodden, a parody on their ancestry, despised of all men almost, and at the mercy of every grafter and robber that chooses to seek them out and make of them his prey. Yes, gentlemen, poor, despised, and shiftless, here he is, the descendent of a noble, dignified ancestry; he is here to-day in diminished numbers prowling around the land like an alien — the land that was so fair and dear to that ancestry, the legiti- mate prey and spoil of the speculator and the grafter. And this is the descendant of that noble race of whom I have been speakiag, who inhabited the old home in the east and exhibited the traits of thrift and intelligence which I have described, and which they brought with them tothis wilderness and exercised here in such a remarkable man- ner, laying, as they imagined, the foundations of a State that would remain through all time as a monument to the red man and his apti- tude for cultivation and progress. I have got down to the time of the outbreak of the civil war. Then it was that woe and destruction was worked unto the red man. Here he was out in his home that he had literally carved out of this wilderness, deserted by the power on which he with sublime faith depended to protect him, and made the pawn of every move in the game of ruthless war, and the victim of every sort of spoilation and robbery in its every form of rapine and murder, the helpless victim who had wronged no man nor either party to that conflict. That war was awful. The Indians did not want to enter into it. They desired nothing more than to be left alone to pursue their path as they saw fit, but that could not be; but they could not help them- selves, for your Government, my Government, and their Govern- rnent failed in that time of peril and disaster utterly to redeem one single promise that it had made. I know that, for I have seen the act of Congress, with the great seal of these United States attached to it, which promised to defend them and protect them, without equivo- cation or evasion, in the possession of this country which they had purchased and paid the stipulated price for as long as grass grew and water flows — and so was it. So it was at the opening of the war of the rebellion the Government deserted them. It withdrew its forces from Fort Gibson and Fort Arbuckle and Fort Washita, and it was not long before these forts were all occupied by the Confederates. So these very Indians who had been educated and brought up in this FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 869 helpless manner, relying for protection on an arm which they had been taught to believe was invincible were left alone, helpless and defenseless against a power that was to them absolutely irresistible; and they did not want to enter into the war. There was in those old days amongst them still chiefs who knew what war meant. They had experienced all of its terrors and horrors, and I have heard these old chiefs plead with their young men not to go into the war at all. "Don't become soldiers" said they, "we have suifered enough already at the hands of the white men, and we have always got the worst of it;" but it was all of no avail, and whether they would or no, they were forced into the war. I was right here, and I know what I am telling you to be the truth. There was no avoiding it. They had no choice; mto it they had to go. Emissaries from Washington and Eichmond came to them, and each in turn threatened them and menaced them, and they were forced to let their men go into the diEFerent divisions that divided the country; and even then, though the Government had deserted them in their time of peril — even flien were they faithful to the Great Father at Washington, even then were they loyal and faithful, though the Con- federate forces had overrun and occupied the whole country and threat- ened and menaced them on every hand, even then I say the far larger tart of them remained faithful to the Union. Yes ; even then more than alf the Cherokees, Creeks, and Seminoles went into the Army of the North, for they said that their faith was still in the Great Father in the White House, and if he did not help them it was because he was unable to do so, but that he would come back and drive the enemy from the country and made good his promise to protect them, and would reward them for their devotion. Thousands of these people actually were forced to abandon this country and they fled with their vsdves and children, and were forced to take a precarious refuge in Kansas rather than remain and be forced to help the enemy. In doing this they had to endure the rigors of winter's blasts, poorly equipped for the experience, but they were willing to sufller all things, if by so doing they could keep their faith and promise. Many, however, were not so self sacrificing — they were not proof against the threats or the blandishments of the seducer and wavered and finally surrendered their word and became traitors — yet who in his heart and conscience can blame them ? How many are there who under like circumstances would have been brave enough to resist ? Not many, I believe. Well, these people fled to Kan- sas and there camped out for three long weary years while this dreadful conflict was raging, abandoning house and home and everything they held dear associated with the word "home;" and down into this devoted land there came the great guerilla bands of Arkansas a,nd Missouri, and they rode over this fat land and feasted on its provision and left fire and destruction in their wake; and then came the jay- hawkers from Kansas and did practically the same thing, so there was practically no distinction made in the treatment that was meted out to them whether by avowed enemies or pretended friends. Whichever side it was as far as actions are concerned is immaterial — they drove off their fat cattle and burned the houses and laid waste. If it was the Confederates, they would take what they could and destroy the rest, and if it was the Yankees they did the same thing, so as to be sure and leave nothing for the Confederates. Well, that is war, I suppose. So the Confederates drove them south by the 860 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. thousands and the Yankees drove them north by the thousands. Now please remember what this means. These people had come from east of the Mississippi and in thirty- years had built up that flourishing community. They had started from comparative beggary and had reached affluence, and in a' few short months the fruits of these thirty years of toil and thrift were swept away and they were again reduced to beggary. And so it seemed the wheel of fortune held no prize for them other than these sudden transitions from affluence and ease to beggary and want. Can you wonder that they were disheartened and discouraged. But they were not. After the war was over they came back from their refuge camps, and they set to work again mardfully to make homes for themr selves, their wives, and children in this beautiful country made desolate and barren by the horrors of war. Well, were they left in peace? No, not at all, for inunediately following the war came the awtul depredations of the bandits, who made of this country a refuge and hiding place, from whence they issued forth to commit their depreda- tions. Outlaws and marauders from every State in the Union; men who had committed crimes in their own States; the offscourings of civilization; men who left their country for their country's good — came to the Territory; came here and in their lawless and ruthless depreda- tions swept back and forth over this country, leaving a devastation and terror in their wake second only to that of war itself. An Indian might- raise corn; they would cooly confiscate it to feed their horses. He might raise a few cattle; they would drive them off right before his eyes. The Government tried to protect them by a system of marshals, but it was a sorry system, a poor ineffective system, and it was a wicked system. The court was in Fort Smith, and two marshals would come out and go all over this country, and they were paid for their services, but about all they ever did was to draw their pay. The Indians dare not complain of any depredation, for if they did they were arrested and taken off to Fort Smith, sometimes 100 and sometimes 200 miles, where they were compelled to remam for two or three months. Well, the upshot of it was that the Indian became thoroughly demoralized; he became completely disheartened, and then on the heels of all this came the railroad through here Avith its attendant evils and demoralizing influences, and then the flood of whites with all the vices that follow in their train when invading a new country; all these things coming upon a people who had been impoverished by the war and robbed by the bandits, left them in a condition to fall easy victims to the wiles of the white man, who were adepts in the art of over- reaching the Indians. _ These are plain words, but nothing but the truth shall escape my lips here to-mght, and I appeal to every person who was here at that time to answer if it is not the absolute truth. These, gentlemen, are the events and influences which have contrib- uted to bring about the condition in which we find the majority of the full bloods at the present time. This is the sad condition to which a noble and upright race, who, before they were made subject by these evil and demoralizing influences, never did any m-an harm;" whose lives, as near as it is given to man to live this life, were daily and hourly exemplifications of the golden rule. They have suffered so long, and sorrow and trouble has been heaped upon them with such untiring pertinacity, that these victims of a sad fate have become FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES, 861 utterly disheartened and discouraged, so that now in this, their home, given to them and pledged to them forever as their own home and heritage, they are despised and scoffed at on every hand. Yes, gentlemen, thej'- are hopeless and almost helpless. They have come before you in their helpless way trying to make known to you their wishes, but how ineffective. They have not the means to hire brilhant advocates to come before you and plead for their rights, and it seems to them as if every element of life has entered into a league for their undoing. Few voices will be raised in their behalf as sincere as mine, and yet I don't know what can be done for them, for they are the victims of a course of events that moves on relentlessly to its cul- mination, and everything in its way will be swept aside or into oblivion. Yet their sad fate appeals to you and touches a responsive chord in every heart I know. Who can tell what their station on the stage of this world would be if it had not been for the war and its attendant horrors and outrages, and the flood of banditism which followed in its wake out of the angry and evil passions then aroused ? So it is, gentle- men, the evil deeds of men don't die with them, but rise up after they have passed away to plague their successors. Yes, gentlemen, these poor people suffer because they are ignorant, and they are hopeless because they are discouraged, and now they are helpless in all the word implies. This is how it is that they fall such an easy prey to these grafters and swindlers with which this fair land is infested — the rob- bers, pirates, and freebooters of modern society. Now, if I have not already done so, let me give you the key to their present hopeless and helpless condition. If I have not already in terms expressed it I will do so now. It has grown out of the treat- ment they have received at the hands of the whites. There is not a treaty, not a promise, or a pledge that has not been violated in all its essentials. It is true that treaties have been changed and modified with their consent, a consent that was in every instance forced from them or secured by cajolery or fraud. These people are Indians and their ways are not the ways of the white man either in thinking or acting. They have felt that everything has been against them, that there is nowhere they can turn and expect to receive good treatment and a faithful performance of promises in their essentials. An Indian, when he makes a promise, does not look so much to the letter of that promise as to its spirit — it is the spirit that moves and influences him. And now, to come to ^he key to this situation, I will state it briefly. It was given to me by an old' Indian woman at the grave of her hus- band. This is what she said, "It is useless for us to work, for the white men will take it away from us, they will steal it or take it away ■from us no matter what we do. It is perfectly useless for us to attempt to do anything. If we work with our hands and our bodies what does it avail us if the white man comes and takes it away? No matter what we do or how we try it is always the same way. We work and nothing is ours. We are slaves to the white man, and all that was ours is theirs." That is the way they feel about it, and that is the way they express themselves over it. I have heard it expressed this way, "Our only hope is in our poverty," which is only another way of expressing the same thought. Now, gentlemen, I submit that is a sad commentary on the Government of the United States, which represents all the people of the United States; yes, indeed, it is a sad 862 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. commentary on the treatment these people have received. It ought not to be so, yet it is so. Gentlemen, I am standing here before you making a plea for the full bloods of this Territory. I am not pleading for the half breeds or the mixed bloods, my plea is only for the full bloods. Here are these people reduced to beggary — the once proud possessors of almost an empire east of the Mississippi. The Cherokees alone surrendered almost 80,000,000 acres of land east of the Mississippi, in addition to what the Choctaws and Chickasaws, Creeks, and Semmoles did. They came to this country and made for themselves a competence and were living in ease and comfort. Such was the condition the opening days of the great rebellion saw them in and at its close they were reduced to absolute indigence and want. They were bankrupt in everything at the close of the war save that high courage that had won for them an independence before its commencement. What was the treatment accorded to these brave and loyal people by the repre- sentatives of the United States sent to them after the war. I sat in the court-house at Fort Smith and heard the commissioner, Mr. Cooley, the United States commissioner to the Indians, say to their representatives, "You have forfeited your rights, and everything you secured by former treaties is all abolished and you are at, our mercy." That was what was said to them — accused of having broken "the treaties and forfeited their rights by doing so — these people who, in the main, had been true and loyal to the United States. They knew that instead of their having broken the compact that the first one to do so was the United States. It had violated its treaty obligation to protect them. At the first signal of trouble it had abandoned them to their own resources and left them to shift for themselves. Now I know well that the Government could not do anything other than it did, it was something that could not be avoided, and the Indians recognized this; but it came with ill grace from the party who had been the first to accuse the other party to the treaty of having forfeited all rights under these treaties on account of a violation of their provisions, which they, the Indians, were as little able to avoid as was the Government of the United States able to carry out its pledge of protecting them. I am not here for the purpose of making an argument as to the right or wrong of the acts of those old days. I am simply pointing out to you the fact, or a fact in a long chain of circumstances or events, all of which has been turned to the disadvantage of the Indians. So the United States was the first one to break the contract when it moved its troops away and left them helpless. Now, when this charge was made against the Indians, and these dire threats uttered, the Indians knew that they were guiltless, but they dare not open their lips. The Government practically said, "This western country we want for other purposes." So they were forced again to surrender and give up one-half of their territory — 23,000,000 of acres of it. They were to all intents and purposes forced to surrender and give up all the territory which constitutes the present Territory of Oklahoma. So it is, and in this way that surrender after surrender of territory has been forced from these full bloods of portions of their territory, one portion after another, until at length we see them stripped of all their possessions, until at length there is not one foot of all these broad lands that they can call their own. The final blow has fallen, and degredation and FIVE CIVILIZED THIBES. 863 despair has nothing more it can offer to them. They have drained the cup of sorrow and bitterness even to the dregs. What have they got to-day? What is left to them of their once broad possessions ? _ You have no doubt heard it stated that the Indian population is increasing. It has been stated, apparently by authority, that there are as many Indians in America to-day as there was at the time of its discovery by Columbus. If we take the popula- tion of the Indian Territory as a basis, it is true probably; but look at this population and its character, and then answer who and what are they. There are between ninety and one hundred thousand so-called Indians in that Territory now, but are they full bloods ? No. Over 40,000 of them are mixed bloods, varying all the way from three- fourths to one-sixteenth Indian blood. Over one-half of these are practically pure negroes, whose citizenship was imposed on the Indians when the Government said to the Indians at the close of the war, "You must permit these negroes to become partners with you in all this property you have here as a punishment for aiding the Con- federacy in the war," punishing the many for the sins of the few. So the Government exercised the power arbitrarily and without a hear- ing of taking the property of one man and dividing it with another; and so it was done, and these negroes, who had no jot of a legal title to any of this land, have been allowed to come in and share with the Indians in their property and adulterate their blood to such an extent that large areas of the Territory are more black than red. And so it is. Out here there are 60,000 people that are called Indians because of the intermixture of blood. There are between 10,000 and 12,000 white people, or practically 'white people, here that have all the rights of Indians. Why? Because they are intermarried or have a trace of Indian in them that entitles them to be called Indians under the law. So we have here more than 70,000 people that have scarcely any right- ful claim in this country at all; but they have this legal claim, and they ought not to have it. They come before you and claim and say, "This is our country; this is our land." Ancl they talk about "my people, my people." But who are they? Who can tell who or what they are? That is the question. Who can tell who or what they are who talk thus loudly about their people and their rights? They are on the national rolls as inheritors of this domain. Again, I ask who they are ? They are not the legitimate descend- ants of these noble red men who lived in Georgia and Alabama and inhabited this country and made it what it is to-day. Thousands of them have not a single drop of that blood in their veins. They are ramping up and down over the land claiming it as their own, and clamoring to have it disposed of to their own particular advantage. And here is this comparative handful of the full bloods — poor, obscure, and apparently without a thought — calmly sitting down and taking comfort from their stoicism, unversed in the way of the world, a prey, and an easy prey, for the grafter — many of whom are right here now in this room and hearing what I say, laughing in their sleeves at the opportunity for plunder that is afforded them. Their vocation in life is cheating and defrauding these Indians by the wholesale, who should be the objects, of commiseration and pity. I say these full- blood Indians ought to have the sympathy and help of the Govern- ment, and steps should be taken to check this reign of fraud and chicanery, which is fast depriving them of the little that is left them. 864 PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. They are being defrauded and swindled not on any small scale, but by wholesale. Their whole history from the first contact with the whites has been one continual saturnalia of plunder and graft. I am not charging the Goveriunent with being a party to this. It has been something, perhaps, that has been beyond human power to control, and while the officials high in the Government have probably been actuated by the best and purest of motives, the trend of events and the difficulty of understanding each other, the distance, and every- thing has tended to enhance difficulties, in their very nature great enough even if not increased by this difficulty. I am sure that you will agree with me that now at this late day the full-blood Indians are the ones that are entitled to the most stringent and effective protec- tion on the part of the Government. They are not able to look out for themselves, but the grafter is always able to protect himself; there- fore it is the full blood that is entitled to your sympathy and protec- tion. Senator Long. How can they be helped ? Mr. Mtireow. Well, sir, I will tell you. Did you ever hear the word "restrictions?" Senator Long. Yes, sir. Mr. MuRROW. I have no doubt but that you have heard the words "remove the restrictions" many times since you have been here. Senator Long. Yes, sir; it seems to me I have heard something of the kind. I think I heard it at Muskogee. Mr. MuREOW. Well, sir, I have a record of hearing of it for a longer time than that. I heard of it forty years ago, and it has been with me constantly since that time. "Remove the restrictions" is the cry. At first it was just a little bit of a faint whisper. It was a little tiny, faint whisper that was first heard with the advent of the poor, impov- erished whites coming from the various States, who came into this country and said to the big-hearted, generous Indians, "Please let us rest a while, for we are weary." They would come in here with their wagons and cattle, driving along, and say to the Indians, "Please let us rest here, for we are tired," and the generous Indians, without a thought of guile or trouble, would let them rest for two months or six months, as was their plea, for the whites would say they would pay for permission to do so, or if it happened to be a merchant that would come in, he would say that he would pay the license tax. And then was first heard this little whisper about removing the restrictions that has grown into this mighty shout that has the ring of victory in its tone. Now, instead of whispering "Remove the restrictions," they shout it aloud, and already I can see the gleam of anticipation in the eyes of the wolves, who are sitting around waiting for the feast they can see is almost prepared for them. There was where the fatal mistake was made by the Indians, in even permitting the whites to come into the country. If they had been rigidly excluded, perhaps this could have been avoided, but the red man was not farseeing. In view of his prior experiences he ought to have been, but he was not. The Indian has never been a good student. He has never learned by experience the things that he ought to have learned. He is the untutored son of nature still, as he ever has been. I doubt if this tide of white inva- sion could have been resisted long, but it might have been withstood until the Indian had perfected himself in the ways of civilization, and there might in that case have been an assimilation. But to get back to that phrase, "Eemoval of restrictions." That was not heard first in this country. It was fiirst heard away back east of the Mississippi. 'That was one of the main things that caused the Indians to remove west of the Mississippi. That word has been growing louder and louder — "remove the restrictions" — ah^ yes, for two hundred years it has been growing, and now it is the insistent hungry cry that will not be downed, from upward of eight hundred thousand whitepeople in the Territory of Oklahoma. Remove the restrictions. Wherefore remove them? For the benefit of the Indians? No. Think you that these people who are making this cry care for the Indians or their welfare? No, sir; not one snap of your fingers. They say they do, and with hypocritical grimaces and gestures pretend a feeling of great solicitude for the Indians, but down in their hearts the Indians' welfare is not a fact that enters into their position. What they want is that the restrictions be removed for their own benefit. Gentlemen, you are going to hear that cry, you can't avoid it, and I predict that it will be successful, and in the end the little that the full blood has will be ravished from him. Will you allow it? Now I have been asked how it is possible to help them. It can be helped. My view of the matter is to say to these gentlemen, "Thus far hast thou gone, but no farther shalt thou go." Say to them, "We shall not remove the restrictions any farther from these Indians lands or the property of these full bloods." These Indians are not inherently lazy. I know that, for I have seen them when they were industrious and laborious when they saw an end ii^ view worthy of their industry. I have seen them for years pursue a course of industry that called for continuous labor. No, they are not inherently lazy and shiftless as represented. The trouble with them is that their ambition has been destroyed. I am firmly convinced that if they had the proper encour- agement and knew that they would be protected, that they would rise again and till their soil. It is because they are demoralized and disheartened, and they have no hope. They say their only hope to avoid fraud and spoliation is to be poverty stricken, for therein lies their only protection; but I say to you that if they are provided with E roper assurances of protection they will rise again and be what they ave been in the past. I know it. I am as confident of it as that I am standing here. Now this is my appeal in behalf of the full bloods. I have said a great deal more than I intended, but I am full of the subject — it is one that lies very close to my heart, and I feel in my soul that these people are worthy of your protection. This is my only apology for the length of my remarks. Now, gentlemen, there is another thing I wish to speak to you con- cerning, and that is the question of the guardianship of orphaned Indian children — one of the acts of Congress that was hatched down here, that was concocted and devised down here. I will tell you gentlemen that nine-tenths of all the legislation concerning this Territory has been concocted and devised right down here in the Territory. You gentlemen may not be aware of it, but it is a fact nevertheless. It has been devised and arranged by these grafters and schemers for their own aggrandizement and has worked per- fectly. Of course, you gentlemen, legislators down there, don't know anything about this, but you can't always see the horns and cloven feet that are hidden behind the measures that are offered for your approval. Well, one of these iniquitous enactments was the one S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 56 866 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. which decreed that the guardianship of orphan Indian children should be in the hands of persons other than Indians. They sept word to you that the Indians were incompetent to handle the estates of these orphans. That is what they told you, and you believed it or you wouldn't have passed the law. Well, there is a measure of truth in that, for some of them are not competent. It was the worst kind of an untruth, for it was less than half truth, but oh, my sakes alive, what was the remedy? What was the change to be? It was taking the management of these helpless little ones' estates out of the hands of people more or less incompetent, but who almost to a man were honest and faithful to their triist to the best of their ability, and turning these little ones and all they had over to the tender mercies of devils incarnate, whose only object and purpose was to rob these helpless full bloods out of the last fraction of their estates ; eat them bare and throw them out on the world, if possible, without anything. Now, gentlemen, don't imagine I am exaggerating, for I tell you in all soberness and truth that what I say is the literal truth, every word of it. It is bad enough, God knows, to rob a poor ignorant man, though he may be a full blood, that is bad enough to rob the ignorant adult man; it is worse to rob a woman, it approaches the devilish to do that; but to rob a poor helpless little orphan, I say that is worse than devil- ish, it is hellish. Yet that is what has been done, here and to-day is being done here by the wholesale. Now I am going to tell you a mar- velous thing. When this law was passed by Congress, taking the guardianship of orphan children from the hands of their Indian friends or relatives and putting it in the hands of United States judges, a wonderful thing occurred. I have been among these Indians for practically fifty years and I never saw anything like that occur. It was the most spontaneous unprecedented blossoming forth of phi- lanthropists, of great-hearted, loving, and philanthropic men and women, white and black and more or less red, whose hearts were bub- bling over with love and sympathy for the poor little wards whose existence they had never before noticed. It was the most sponta- neous outbreak of love and affection that was ever witnessed on the face of this earth. Nowtheywere grafters pureandsimple. Thecolor of the skin don't determine the fact at all, for a man may have a red skin or a black skin and be as good a grafter as any white man can be. Their number was legion, and they came from the north and the south, the east and the west, almost in battalions, and brigaded to the court and said to the United States j udge . ' ' We love these little orphan chil- dren and we want to take them and raise them properly, for they have lost their fathers and mothers, and we are very sorry for them and we love them so we want them, and we will raise them tenderly and care- fully, and will educate them and do everything for their good." Now, that is the way they came into the room and talked to the court. But don't think for a moment that they cared for these children; don't be deceived by the thought that it was an overwhelming love for the poor, helpless little one that actuated them. No; none of these con- siderations prompted them; but that little one had an estate, that was what they were after, the care and custody of the child nominally, but the actual control of the estate so that they could graft off it and loot it in every conceivable way. Gentlemen, I tell you in all truth that I sat in the court-house, the United States court room in the FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 867 town of Antlers, and at one time heard a man from Kansas City, a speculator in the lives and fortunes of these helpless unfortunates, ask the court at one time for the custody or guardianship of 161 children. The Chairman. At one time? Mr. MtTRROW. Yes, sir; at one time, he asked for the guardianship of 161 of these helpless orphans and minors, because the courts have decided that only the United States courts can appoint guardians for the orphans of Indians deceased, and to be a legal guardian they must be appointed by proceedings instituted in the United States court; and if estates descend to children by inheritance, if you are an Indian and they come to your children that way, even you would not be per- mitted to act as the guardian of the estate of your own child or admin- istrator of it, imless you go to court and fill out a bond. Now these Indians are afraid of these United States courts, and, indeed, they have good cause to distrust them, for it has been sorry treatment that many of them have received there in the past, and these grafters or speculators, when they concocted that law, knew this to be the fact, so they fixed it that it woidd have to be done in the United States courts, knowing that the distrust of these courts would keep the Indians from going there. Well, as I was saying, on this occasion in the court at Antlers, this man stood there before the court and said: "I want the guardianship of 161 children. " Now, that is what his action amounted to. He did not use these exact words, but in effect that was what he wanted and what he got. He did not want the children; that is what he applied for, but he did not want to be bothered with them at aU. What he wanted was their estates. The children were not anything to him. Although he bought them like cattle; yet they did not have the value of so many cattl'e outside of their estates, for he could not sell them and he could if they were cattle; so I say, so far as the children were concerned, he cared less for them and their welfare, moral, spiritual, or physical by far than he would for the welfare of so many cattle or hogs. His agents had gone out through the field, up and down the coun- try looking for victims, and he had given them five, ten, or even twenty-five dollars for each victim they would bring in. It was worth far more than that to him, but he was willing to pay that for the guardianship of a child, depending on the value of the estate there would be to handle. Think you they cared for the children? Not a bit. They never saw the child and did not want to see it, and never calculated to see it. That was the last thing that entered into their scheme — the thing that ought to have been first was not even last, for it had no place at all. Well, in that way they would get the approval of the court and furnish their bond, and then they would be in control of the estates of these minor orphan children, or children of tender years who had estates, whether orphans or not. There is a man in this country somewhere now who has given me per- mission to mention and use his name as authority, and he can stand up here and 'testify that he has got a stack of papers that high [indicating] showing the guardianship of these minor children and who the guardianship was gotten from. The Chairman. Mr. Mills, did you say ? _ Mr. MxjBROW. Yes, sir; he is my authority and I have his permis- sion to use his name. The Chairman. Is it Mr. S. A. Mills? 868 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Mtjerow. Yes, sir; the same. Senator Beandegee. Were these full-blood minor orphan cases ? Mr. Mtjerow. Most of them were full-blood minor orphans, and some of them were mixed bloods Senator Beandegee. How many of these orphans are there here? Mr. MuEEOW. I don't know the exact numbers, but my impression is that there are mighty near 2,000 full-blood orphan children in this Indian Territory, and they all have guardians and are being robbed almost without exception. Now, this is a very bad state of affairs. Senator Claek. The guardians that are appointed by the court are coinpelled to give bond? Mr. MuEEOW. Yes, sir. Senator Claek. Well, I would like you to describe if these guardiafis give bond, how the children are cheated out of their estate. Mr. MxiEEOW. Well, I will try and tell you how that is done. Now, I want you to understand that these gentlemen are ingenious in devis- ing ways and means of doing it — but they will do it. It is kind of hard to begin. There is various ways that it is done. Now I am not criticising the courts — although perhaps a little of it would do them no harm — but the fact is that these judges are swamped with probate business. There is only eight judges here and there is probably 10,000 orphans and minors whose estates are in their hands or in their courts, and it is too much to expect of human nature that under that load they could perform their duties well and look after these children's estates as they should be looked after. It is a matter of impossibility for them to do it. Senator Beandegee. You think there is too much work for the courts to attend to properly? Mr. MuEEOW. Yes, sir; I think there is so much of it that the judges don't have time to give each case the attention it is entitled to. in that press of business it is a matter, of course, that they must pass over matters hastily, or appoint some one else to attend to it. They can't do it themselves. I am talking very plainly, and I expect to be put on the rack or hauled over the coals for it, but that don't influence me; I am used to it, and it wiU not be the first time. I have yet to make my first composition with the devil, and it is hardly now, that after I have passed three score and ten by a good deal, that I will change the tenor of my life in that respect. I have always spoken the truth and borne witness to it, and that habit wiU not forsake me even when ia the presence of such an august body as this committee of the United States Senate. Oh, this is nothing to me — I have had my hide taken off, methaphorically speaking, a dozen times aheady,for things I have said, and I expect I will meet with the same treatment this time. That is all right though. I can stand it with equanimity. The judges, as I said, can't possibly give these matters their personal attention, so they turn it over to an official — I believe a master, he is called — whose duty it is to investigate and keep track of these cases; but the plain fact is that a great many of these officials have more regard for the interest of the speculator who is speculating on the fortunes of these helpless ones than they have in the interest of the wards who have been placed in their hands. A great many of these officials are either incompetents or worse — that is the plain unadulterated truth— for they have the time to do the work and are paid for doing it, and if they do it and make their reports the way they almost universally do, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 869 it is open to suspicion of something worse than mere carelessness of their official duty. However that may be, when their report comes in, whether right or wrong, it is approved, and that is all there is to it. The Chairman. You mean the report of the guardian? Mr. MuRKOW. Yes, sir. There is another way it is done. When a man is appointed as guardian and as curator he gets his pay both ways, The Chairman. He is paid in both capacities ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; he is paid as guardian of the child and as curator of the child's estate. He is paid double, and that frequently absorbs all the revenue. The scheme is to do that by hook or crook. Senator Clark. And the child gets nothing ? Mr. Murrow. No, sir; the child goes without anyone. There are men who have these children's estates in their hands, and the children are left to shift for themselves. Take the case of little Addie Foster out here. That child was the heir to five estates, and an orphan. There was a man who had himself appointed guardian for this child and her estates, which he rented out for $600 or $800 and sometimes $1,000 a year. He paid no attention to the child at all further than to board her with an Indian family and paid $10 a month for her board. She was not even sent to school, and permitted to grow up in ignorance, yet that man is to-day living in a fine house that he built from the proceeds of estates of unfortunates like she. That man is guardian, or was, and is yet probably, for 40 of these such estates, and he manages to get it all, or nearly all. Senator Beandegee. Don't the reports of the guardian that are filed show what is done with the proceeds of these estates ? Mr. Murrow. Well, they are supposed to do so, sir, and if you take the trouble to go and examine the report you will find that they have made a most beautiful report; but the trouble is, that don't corre- spond with the facts. It will be exaggerated, and a lot of items put into it that should not be there, and all distorted and twisted up to conceal the facts. Senator Brandegee. Well, it does not correspond with what? What is there that does not correspond ? Mr. Murrow. Well, the reality does not correspond with the report. Senator Brandegee. In plain words, you mean that the report is cooked up so as to, absorb the revenue of the estate ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; that is what I mean; the reality does not correspond with the report. Senator Brandegee. Well, wherein does it not correspond? Mr. Murrow. In this, that they get a great deal more than they report. Senator Clark, of Montana. So that is the way it is being done — the amount received from the estate is stated at less than the amount actually received ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; I tell you, gentlemen, these Indian orphan children are being robbed right and left in wholesale fashion. They are robbed at every^ turn of the road. Senator Long. Well, what remedy do you propose to remedy this condition of affairs ? Mr. Murrow. Well, I'll tell you, gentlemen, that I have a little ax or a httle hatchet ground, and I think if it is used rightly and diplo- matically that it will cut off this graft in good shape. I'll lay it before 870 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. you, gentlemen, and see what you think of it. I have been here now almost fifty years, and I have thought and studied over these matters and I can see no remedy but this. Now, this is my remedy: We are establishing an industrial home for these children. The Choctaws have given us 3,528 acres of land, and you gentlemen in Congress have given us a patent for that land; that is satisfactory. It is located out here near Coalgate. The Chairman. That is out east of here? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; southeast of here. Senator Clark, of Montana. What is the name of that institution ? Mr. MuRROW. It is named the "Murrow Indian's Orphan Home." Senator Clark, of Montana. It has been named after you ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; I have been honored in that particular.' I thank God that they have honored me by giving my name to it. Senator Clark, of Montana. What kind of a training do the chil- dren receive there ? Mr. Murrow. Well, it is an industrial school. We teach the chil- dren how to work, and at the same time give them a good, plain common-school education. We propose to teach them how to farm and do simple mechanical work, and at the same time acquire an education that will be serviceable to them in life. We have no very high or exalted aims — we simply are trying to make good men and women out of them by teaching them how to do things right and how to think right. Senator Clark, of Montana. How long has that institution been in operation ? Mr. Murrow. Three years. Senator Clark, of Montana. What kind of pupils have you there? Mr. Murrow. We have boys and girls, both. I do wish that you could come out there and see our boys on the farm working. It would give you a better idea of the adaptability of the Indian. They work half the day on the farm, and go to school half a day. They will take their books out on the farm and study them every moment they can. I never saw any boys, Indian or white, so earnest about studying as these boys are. Senator Long. They are more willing to study than to work? Mr. Murrow. No, sir; when they go out on the farm to work they are just as diligent about raising corn or potatoes as they are diligent in the schoolroom with their books. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is that institution endowed? Mr. Murrow. No, sir; it is not endowed. We have the land, but we have no money endowment, and we are wanting a good many things up there. We are doing very well, considering, but we lack houses and buildings very much. It is a practical institution and is managed all right, I think. It is something that is worthy of the object. Senator Clark, of Montana. How has it been supported so far? Mr. Murrow. Well, we are the legal guardian of a good many of these children — it is an institution providing a home for these orphan children and we are the guardian for a good many of them, and we take their estates and run them honestly and economically and secure them from the depredations of these grafters. Oh, we are doing everything straight and honest. We don't want a foot of the land of these children, not a foot. We just want to preserve it and improve it and keep it in such a way that when they are grown they win have a good home to go to and know how to do things, and have something saved up for them to start with. No, sir; we don't \/ant one penny of their estates A VOICE. Doctor, didn't you give one-half of your land as a gift to the school? Mr. MuEROW. Oh, what made you say anything about that? I don't want that talked about. Yes, I did. It was a gift to me. The Choctaws gave me 80 acres of land and I gave them half of it back for the school. I didn't want it. I have all I want here. This is not my home; I have a home up yonder, and that is all I care for. As far as these orphans are concerned, the ones for whom we are guardians, they are selfc-supporting; the income from these lands support them and more in most cases. We are doing the right thmg by these helpless ones. Ask any one in the nation and they will tell you the same thing. I think we might even turn to the grafters themselves for corroboration of that statement. A Voice. That's so. Mr. MuRROW. All we want is money or means to put up houses on that land and there need be no fear but we will work out our own salvation. These grafters don't want us to have these children, but God is on our side and we will get them yet. The Chairman. You are seeking to become the guardians of all of the orphans in the Indian Territory ? Mr. MuRROw. Well, that is a pretty big contract, but I hope the time will come when we will be, if God so wills it. We will under- take it and trust in God to provide the facilities for taking care of them. The Chairman. Will the individual allotment of an orphan child support it in your home? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; more than do it. The Chairman. It will more than support them? Mr. MuRROW. It will. You know we keep books with each one of them — have an account with each one of them. For instance, there is little Johnnie James. We keep books with him. He has his account on our books and whatever comes in from rents or anything else from his place, whether it is $50 or $75 or $100 or $300, it is placed to his credit on our books and we charge him up with the actual expense of his keep — we charge him with his board and cloth- ing — and his work on the farm; for that he gets the equivalent in education. The whole course of the institution is educative. Boys and girls are taught how to work, and how to do it to the best ad- vantage. The Chairman. Your institution is appointed guardian by the court? Mr. MuEROw. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, the necessary expenses for the proceedmgs in court, such as the court orders, etc., are paid for out of the estate? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; the estate always pays all of its own ex- penses of administration. The Chairman. And the balance of it will support the child at your home ? Mr. MuEEOw. Yes, sir; every time. More too. Our experience is that it will pay for their keep and more, too. 872 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The Chairman. Now, we have heard at these other places where we have been told by various parties that in the case of the adminis- tration of these estates that the court costs and expenses for getting orders, and one thing and another, frequently eat up the entire revenue of the estate. Now, what do you say about that? Mr. MuRROW. Well, sir, I say that is not correct. That is some- thing that can't occur if the people are honest. We have had some experience — considerable of it — and I tell you that we can take the children through, pay all their expenses for court orders and every- thing, and their expenses at the home — we can take them right through and pay all these expenses and put money in the bank for them after pa3dng all their expenses — court expenses, and every other kind of expenses. We have children in our home that are being taugh1< to be men, who are well fed and well clothed, every one of them out of the rents derived from their estates, who, by the time they are of age will have quite a nice little nest egg of money in the bank to begin life on. Wnen a man tells you that it takes as much as an estate will earn to pay the expenses of administering it, I say that man is not telling the truth, or he is a mighty poor manager. We are improving their estates all the time, and when we get $10, $20, $50, or $100 ahead after their expenses are paid we put it in the bank and it is kept there for them, and by the time they are grown they will have money to start with and a good home to go to. They will find their home all fixed up ready for them to go to. The Chairman. That is your experience down here ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; that is our experience, and it ought to be the experience everywhere. The Chairman. When we go up to Muskogee and inquire into this matter we are told that the expense of administering an allotment up there frequently equals the entire revenue from it, in other words that the revenue is all consumed in costs, or about consumed. Now, when anybody tells us that are we to conclude that the estate is either dishonestly or fraudulently managed or administered ? Mr. MuREOW. I think it is a safe thing to assume that that is the fact. We are in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and the allot- ments here are larger than they are in the Creek or Cherokee nations; but we have Creeks down in our institution and we don't have any trouble in making their allotments more than pay all expenses. The Chairman. Do you take all orphans, wherever found? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; they are welcome from any tribe in the United States. There is no restriction as to locality. The Chairman. Well, now, what is the plan you suggest? Mr. MuRROW. Well, gentlemen, the plan I suggest is just simply this, if the Government of the United States can find some way or plan by which houses can be erected on this land. The Chairman. For your home ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; for my home — that is what is called, my home — but all that is mine about it is the name. The title to it and all it has or will have is in the orphan children, and it caif t be either mortgaged or sold, for the title is fixed in them forever, as long as any of these children are alive; and I want you to make it ironclad. Rivet it up so that it can't be touched by the covetous hand of anv grafter or looter. Fix it so that this home will be the one place on earth where the orphan will go and where everybody will know that his FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 873 estate is not being rifled, and where everybody will know that he is f'stting a square deal and an education that fits him for the battle of ife in the country where he will have to make it. The Chairman. Is that what you sought to make it ironclad for ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir ; we did. That was the very idea that no one — not even myself — were I disposed, could get at it to rob it. The Chairman. That is very commendable and gratifying. Mr. MuRROW. Our by-laws provided that if any director or offi- cer ever makes any attempt to mortgage or dispose of this 3,000 acres of land, or to alienate it or pledge it in any way, form, or shape, by that act he cuts himself off officially from the directorship. There is no necessity for formal action, for by the act he cuts himself off and the other directors can put someone else in his place. The Chairman. How many directors have you? Mr. MuRROW. Nine. The Chairman. Is it incorporated ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then you have a corporate entity and existence? Mr. MuRRow. Yes, sir; we are incorporated. The Chairman. Is it incorporated under the corporation laws applicable to the Indian Territory ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. By the provisions of which in the case of a vacancy the survivors fill the vacancy? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long do the directors hold office ? Mr. MuRROW. Three years. The Chairman. When are the directors elected ? Mr. MuRROW. Three are elected each year. The Chairman. And three retire each year? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The elections each year are made by those that are left? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much money will it take to build these houses that you speak of as being absolutely necessary ? Mr. MuRROW. Well, my beloved brother, we want a big thing. We want a thing so big that I am almost afraid to speak of it. We have a great necessity on our hands. I don't know of anything like it in the United States. I never heard of anything like it in the world, and it is a big thing and a big necessity — a crying want — that is what it is. I think there is the brightest spot in all the world for these poor children, and it could be expanded so as to take in old people who are helpless and feeble, and sickly people, and blind people, and people who are incapable of attending to their own business. I foresee that the time is coming when these people will have their way, and the restrictions will be removed, and these people will be thrown onto the world, and be reduced to a condition of vagabondage, and if we have a chance and are given the legal right to do so, we will save a great many of these children, and save their property for them from the grafters, and every inch that they have of land will be saved for them when they are grown. The Chairman. Well, I would like to have your idea of how much assistance you need now. Let's have your estimate. 874 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. MuEROW. Well, sir, we need a whole lot of money. This is a big thing, and big things take big money. Well, sir, I'll tell you, we could use $100,000. The Chairman. How long will that last? Mr. MuRROw. Oh, we want it to last forever — always and forever. The Chairman. And this $100,000, what do you want to do with it? Mr. MuRROW. Well, sir, we don't want to put it in anything but buildings. The Chairman. Of course if you are correct in your belief that this is going to grow into a great institution and will furnish protection and a refuge for all the orphans and other unfortunate people among the Indian tribes, do you think that this $100,000 is going to furnish all the buildings you will need ? ' Mr. MuRROW. Oh, yes, sir; it will do it, and I will tell you why — we build cottages. We have a cottage there that cost us $3,000 that will accommodate from 20 to 30 children, and then there is another one about 200 yards away that will do the same thing; so you see we can furnish protection or room for them at a cost of about $100 each; or, say, $125 each, which is very reasonable. With $100,000 we could furnish shelter for more than 1,000 of them, and it would be a good, comfortable shelter too, with every convenience suitable, and that is a record that few institutions in this country can equal. If we had a million dollars we could handle 10,000 of them as far as housing is concerned, but we would have to have more land. I am just showing you what could be done. I am satisfied, too, that the time will come when it will be done. We would build one of these cottages here and another one there and scatter them around that way and build as many as there was a demand for and the money to build them with. We would have to have room — which we have for the cottages, and the church and the public building and the schoolhouse and our printing office, and so on, for our plan contemplates having all these things in time — in short, having a regular industrial establishment where everything will be taught along practical lines. The Chairman. The scheme is quite comprehensive? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; but many great institutions started from humbler beginnings than this did. We are full of faith and high hopes. We expect to do our own work with our own boys and bund our buildings as we need them. That is the reason we can get it done so cheap. The Chairman. Do you get anything from the working of this land; that is, does it produce anything much? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is it good land ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; it is as good land as the Curtis bill people would let us have. We selected it and selected a good deal better land than they thought it was. We would not trade that land for anybody's land, I can tell you. We think a whole lot of it. We know it is good land. The Chairman. And the institution is now in actual running order? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many inmates are there in it now? Mr. MuRROW. Ninety-two. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you expect to increase its capacity soon? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 875 Mr. Mtjerow. We hope to. If we can get the money to put up these buildings so we will have room for the children we will do it. We can get plenty of them when we have accommodation for them. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, to what extent do you expect to increase its capacity ? Mr. MtJRROW. W^ell, we don't know. To any extent we hope that may be needed or demanded. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, about what is the maximum extent that you expect it can be increased to ? Mr. MuRROW. I don't know. I expect there is 2,000 of these Indian orphans in the Territory, and we would like to get them all in there if it is possible. We would like to do it, because we believe they would be far better off there than aiiywhere else. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are they all full bloods? Mr. MuRROW. No, sir; some are full bloods. Senator Clark, of Montana. I thought you said they were all full bloods? Mr. MuRROW. Oh, no; some are mixed bloods. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, do you take mixed bloods in there, too? Mr. MuRROW. Indeed and we do. We will take any kind of Indian blood in. Senator Clark, of Montana. Either mixed or pure bloods ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. We are only going to take the poor ones. We are not going to take the rich ones; but the poor ones, no matter what their blood is, are the ones we want. The ones that need our help are the ones we want. Senator Clark, of Montana. Well, I don't understand by " rich ones" what you mean. Please explain your meaning? Mr. MuRROW. Well, I mean that we are not going to take the ones who have friends or relatives who are really interested in them and desire to keep them and educate them. We might in time even do that, but that time is not now, for our place is not for them. There are so many here that are helpless, and our institution is for them — the ones that are the most helpless. Senator Clark, of Montana. And where is this institution of yours located? Mr. Murrow. About 25 miles southwest of here, nearCoalgate. Senator Clark, of Montana. Let me see, Coalgate is southwest of here? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; about 25 miles southwest of here, on the road to Ardmore. The school is not far from Coalgate. Senator Clark, of Montana. What is the nature of the organiza- tion ? Is it in perpetuity ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; it is in perpetual operation — in perpetuity, as you say Senator Brandegee. And when the minor who is an inmate of that institution becomes of age you let him go out in the world and you help him with a start — in other words, you pay him the balance that is due him from his estate, whatever it may be, and he goes out in the world? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir. Our plan is this: We are appointed guardians and curators of his person and estate, and we give bonds, as the law requires, and take charge of his estate and rent it or lease it 876 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES, on the best terms we can. The income is paid to us and we charge the minor with his board and clothing — what it costs us and no more — and at the end of the term — that is, when he is of age — he goes out of our institution free of debt and without any obhgations. In the mean time, while he has been with us we improve his allotment and fix it up for him so that it will afford him a home. We build a four or five room house on it and put the other necessary improvements on it out of the income from it, and make it into a suitable home for him, and then when he leaves the school he has- a home to go to, and we pay over to him any surplus of money that we may have on hand that is to his credit. We tiy to get 40 or 50 acres in cultivation and we plant out about 10 acres of an orchard and fence it and try to make a good home for the boy or girl, as the case may be. We try to make a good* farm for him, wherever it may be. Senator Brandegee. Well, where will this allotment be? Is there any special place it will be ? Mr. MtJBEOW. No, sir ; it is all over — any place in the Indian Terri- tory. We rent it and take the income from his allotment, whatever it may be. While they are with us their expenses don't amount to very much, and there is a surplus which we put in some good, safe bank, where it will be earning something for him or her right along. Senator Brandegee. Your object and purpose is to protect the child as much as possible, and make his or her estate produce as much as possible, and save as much out of it as can be for their use at the time they reach maturity or become of age? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. And in the meantime you are seeing after the improvement of their homestead allotment ? Mr. MuRROw. Yes, sir; we aim to do everything we possibly can to make of them good and useful citizens — people who will know how to meet the responsibilities of the world when they are thrust upon them. We aim especially to teach them the value of money and the useful purpose it serves if rightly used, and the virtue of thrift and industry, and to show them that the reward they get is proportioned to the exercise or development of those characteristics. So when he reaches age we are hoping that we will be able to furnish this new State of ours with a progressive, intelligent citizen that will not bring discredit on our institution ; and we hope to turn him over independ- ent, the possessor of a good farm, well improved, and a supply of money in bank to his credit. Senator Brandegee. Your aim is to do that at his majority? Senator Clark, of Montana. The corporation is appointed his guardian? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; that is what we want, but we have not got it yet. Senator Clark, of Montana. Why not? Mr. MuRROw. Well, the courts have not seen fit as yet to give the guardianship to the corporation, but it does give it to the individual members of our board of directors. Senator Clark, of Montana. How many directors did you say you had? Mr. MuRROw. Nine. Senator Clark, of Montana. And how many of these orphans did you say you had in there ? Was it 92 ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 877 Mr. MuERO.w. Yes, sir. My brother Rob here has 300 and I have a few, and some more of us have the guardianship of a few, but that is not exactly what we want. What we want particularly is power for the corporation to become guardian as such. We would like it to become the guardian for every needy orphan in the Indian Territory. We want to act as guardian for all of these chil- dren who are homeless and friendless. Of course, the ones who have relatives and good friends who will give them a good home and good education and the loving care and attention and training along right lines we are not so mucn interested in; but it is the help- less, friendless ones that we want, and we can't get too many of them. Senator Clark, of Montana. You say you give bond for this guard- ianship ? Mr. MuKROw. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Who goes on your bonds? Mr. MuRROW. The Southern Trust Company, of Atoka. Senator Clark, of Montana. Where did you say that trust company was located? Mr. MuRROw. At Atoka. I will tell you, gentleman, another thing — the com-ts have confidence in us. If it comes to it we can give bond one for another. We can stand before the court and say the only object we have is the ultimate welfare of these children and by our conduct show that we are sincere and mean it and do it, and the courts have come to have confidence in us and when we ask for a guardianship we have no trouble in getting it at all. Here is Judge Humphrey; he presides over the court here and he is a. good friend of the Indian child and wishes them well and tries to protect them and always has. He is the judge of the court at Antlers, where that grafter who came in and asked for all those guardianships, was appointed — he can tell you all about it. Judge Humphrey. Well, I will ask you now if that grafter at Antlers was appointed? Mr. Murrow. Indeed and he was not. Judge Humphrey. From what you said, I inferred that he was? Mr. Murrow. Indeed and he was not. On the contrary, he was set down on hard, I am proud to say, and it stands to Judge Humph- rey's credit that he was not appointed, and the judge let it be known what his opinion was of that kind of work. Well, now, gentlemen, I have talked a long time. It is about time that I had finished. I am very thankful for the time you have given me. I wish that I were gifted with a more eloquent tongue, but unfortunately for the cause I represent, I am not. I have done my best, however, and that is all any man can do. Now, gentlemen, I have given you a recital, in an unconnected and disjointed manner, of the work we are trying to do down here. We feel that it is a noble work. We feel that it is a work that has God's blessing on it and for that reason it can not fail. Several of the Indian governments here — the Creek Nation, for instance — have a refuge at Okmulgee for just such cases as these, but its days are about numbered, for it will soon be abandoned. I want to state further that all these Indians provided and cared for their orphan children before these troublous days came upon them. They always looked after them before their tribal governments were abolished. But that form of government has been all broken up, and 878 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. these helpless and dependent orphans are scattered, with no one to look after them, and at the mercy of every grafter who chooses to prey on them, and I may say, in passing, that they all look upon such as legitimate plunder. Some of the tribes would be willing yet to make provisions for their protection if the Government would be willing to give them the use of the property that once was theirs, but has been taken away from them. They believe in it, and they may well believe in it, for it is of the old paternal form of government under which they have always lived ^nd which suited their needs and tem- f)eraments so admirably. I suppose it is all right — it certainly is rom your standpoint — but it is a hard thing to impose on a people who neither by habit, custom, or training are habituated to them, customs altogether alien to their training. It has been often tried in this world, and I have never yet read where it was accompanied by anything other than a disastrous conclusion. This is one point of difficulty down here, the great difficulty I may say. But this is a digression. Now, if this could be done, these buildings turned over to them, or arrangements made whereby they could get buildings, you may depend on it we will work out our own salvation along that line. All we want is a start. I should finish here — indeed, I have seen many places in my talk where I felt I ought to stop — but I am so full of this thing, and one thing suggests another until I see opening before me new avenues of thought that seem to me important, and which I feel ought to be given expression that I can not resist them. One is the thought that there is all over these United States many wealthy men, men rich beyond the wildest dreams of avarice fifty years ago; men who want and desire to put their money into institutions which will do the most good for humanity and civilization. It is one of the noblest attributes of our age that great wealth has brought so many men of our time, and especially of these later days, a realization of the fact that their wealth is, after all, a trust which God. looks to them to use well and wisely; and so I say there are these men all over the world, and particularly in our own country, who are hungering and thirsting for opportunity to do good with these great trust funds placed in their control ; and to sucn I point out the fact that I believe there can no- where be found an institution more worthy of the notice of such. We know that we are doing God's work here, and we are confident that in due time He will manifest His hand in such a way as to convince the world that it is indeed one of His works. I have no hesitation in say- ing that I believe that Mr. Bixby, chairman of the Dawes Commission, Mr. Benedict, superintendent of schools, Mr. Kelse, Indian agent, and every judge of the courts and representative of the United States will give their unqualified approval of my assertion as to the nature and character of this work we are carrying on. I believe that they will also certify to the fact that we are unselfish, wholly unselfish, in it and are prepared to make. I believe I may say confidently that we have the indorsement of every religious body, regardless of creed, in the Indian Territory, as well as the indorsement of every tribe in the Indian Territory. Now if you gentlemen, if opportunity offers, would speak a word to some of these rich men all over our country who are really wanting to put some of their money where it will do good, this is the institution where it will do an infinite amount of good, and they may rest assured that their trust and confidence will FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 879 aot be abused. It is just as Mr. Bixby said in a letter written tfi me: "I don't know of a more worthy institution in the United States than yours," and I don't believe there is a more worthy one in the United States or anywhere else. If they don't feel like giving us a great gift we will be thankful if they will give us the means to build a $3,000 cottage. Almost anyone of wealth can do that. All we want is the buildings, gentlemen; give them to us and we will work out our own salvation. Senator Teller. Will you give the reporter the legal title of your institution or corporation ? The corporation title is what I want. Mr. MuRROW, It is The Murrow Indian Orphans' Home. Senator Teller. That is the way it is designated in your charter ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir; that is the way it is in our charter. Senator Teller. That is the way it is officially designated ? Mr. Murrow. Yes, Senator; in our charter and our by-laws. Here is a copy of our charter and our by-laws. Senator Teller. Do you wish us to take them? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir. Now, gentlemen, I am through; but I feel that I ought to say one thing more and with your permission I will do it. Senator Teller. Go ahead. Mr. Murrow. I want to to say this: That the full-blood Indians are rather shy of attending school with the whites. They don't like to do it, and I think they are not going to do it. We have many ideals that don't always work out as realities and this idea that the Indians and the whites can get along all right in school together is an ideal that educators and theorists in the East have, but which when applied out here don't work out. Up here in Kansas some years ago, when the Peorias and Miamis and Ottawas and other Indians were there and became citizens of that State they attended the same schools with the whites. Now, this that I am about to relate I have from the ones that were attendants at these sch»ols at that time. They are grown men now, somewhat advanced in years, too, who attended these schools as little boys. They tell me that up there in Kansas they attended school for two or three weeks, and then conditions became so unbearable they could not stand it. They were compelled to move, they were abused, and beaten, and spit upon, and called little niggers, until they say they could not endure it. Now, I am going to show how history repeats itself. It is the same way here. There is not an Indian child who has attended a school where the whites were in the majority here who has not had the same experience. History repeats itself, and I will show you. Back in the State of Mississippi there are about 2,000 of the Choctaws who, at the time of the migration westward, refused to come with their brethren. They preferred to remain in their old home and haunts, and they hid in caverns and in the mountains from the soldiery who attempted to drive them out, and most of them are there to this day. Well, for fifty years the State of Mississippi has failed to furnish these poor, benighted Indians with any schools, and they have been utterly with- out educational facilities. They were no more accorded human treat- ment — treatment as human beings — than a worthless dog. The Chairman. Have they become extinct ? Mr. Murrow. No, sir; they are not. The Chairman. Where are they? 880 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. MuREOW. Some of them are there yet, I believe. Most of them are here now and show the effects of the treatment they received. Remember, these people are the remnant of a proud and intellectual race — amongst the proudest of the aboriginal tribes. But for sixty years, back there in Mississippi, they were treated worse than an out- cast dog. For sixty years they were not permitted to come into a white man's house. The Chairman. How long has it been since they came here? Mr. MuRROW. Some three or four years ago. The Chairman. What did you say they were ? Mr. MuRROW. They were Mississippi Choctaws. The Chairman. How many was there of them ? Mr. MuRROW. There was about 2,000 of them, I believe; some- thing over 2,000. I know what I am talking about. Back there in the white man's country they were not permitted to enter the white man's house. They dare not go into the churches. They were not permitted to walk on the sidewalks; they walked in the middle of the streets like the beasts. That was their condition, and was their con- dition when they first came here. But they are very much improved now over what they were when they first came here. Their coming here was a blessing for them, for their condition is an improvement over what it was back in Mississippi. They were brought here by one of these grafters or speculators, who thought to make a speculation out of them. But I understand it did not work out as well as he thought it would. The Chairman. Have they allotments ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; they have allotments the same as the Choctaws, who have been here all these years. Now, I mention this to show you that it is useless to talk about the full bloods attending school with the whites, for they are not going to do it. Senator Clark, of Montana. They have an aversion to attending school with white children. Mr. MuREOW. Yes, sir; and they have a reason for it. They have been insulted and oppressed and rode over so long that the iron has entered their souls. They are a proud race and grow obstinate and sullen under adversity, and nothing can convince them, for they know that their old experiences will be repeated should they attempt it, and, gentlemen, I believe they are right. It don't make much difference whether it be Kansas or Mississippi, the white looks upon himself as the superior race, and everything has to get out of his way or be crushed, and they don't wait until they are men and women grown to show it. In point of fact the children will show it in a more offensive and unnecessary maimer than will their grown elders, but it is true that young or old the average white man hasn't much use for the Indian or much regard for his rights. Now these Indians, these fuU bloods to whom I refer, are doubly hard to handle. They can't speak the English language. They are ofiE by themselves, and they are practically ostracised. There has been a great deal of talk here about the sale of these coal lands. If the Government of the United States would appropriate the income from these coal lands to the support and training and education of these helpless Indian children, the Indians are willing that that be done. Governor McCurtain will back me up in that. What we want is money, money that does aU things. If we had a FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 881 fund that was large enough we could go to the teachers and say to them, "here are some Indian full bloods in your neighborhood. Get them into your school and keep them there and teach them, and we will give you $2 a month for each chQd." If that is done there is then some hope of getting these full bloods to attend school, for money is the thing they say that "makes the mare go," but I tell you money will make a teacher go just as well. It will make him take these children because he likes the money, even if he don't like the child, and I fear very much that many of them don't like the children. As I say though, make it an inducement to him and he will see that they are got out, for he wants the money. TheCHAJEMAN. Now, your proposition is to retain this land and lease it on royalty as at present, and use this royalty for the purpose of getting the children to school ? Mr..MuREOw. Yes, sir. The Chairman. By paying the teachers an additional sima for each full-blood child they get to come to school ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, now, the Government can't do that without the consent of the Indians? Mr. MuRROW. That is what I said; the Indians will be only too glad to do it. The Chairman. Well, I am not so sure about that. Senator Teller. We can't do it, because it is not our money. If the Indians consented, that's another proposition. Mr MuRROw. Well, the Indians will consent. I am glad to hear you say what you have. A great many of our prople want the children protected, and they think that the full bloods are the ones who need protection and assistance specially. That is almost the universal sentiment among them. Of course, there are some of them who have become infected with the grafter virus who would like to see everything sold off outright and all the funds of the nations divided up per capita; but that is not the sentiment of the majority. The ones who believe that talk very loud and make a great deal of noise; but we all know that there is a great deal of volume in sound but little substance. Yes, I am sorry to say that the grafting virus has got into the Indians, and when they get it they are worse than their teachers — have less conscience, for I nave seen a white grafter who now and then would display evidence that he had a little of it left, but never in an Indian grafter. Senator Teller. Do you think the Indians would be willing for the Government in that way to make provision for these schools ? Mr. MuRROW. Yes, sir; I believe they would be willing for the Government to do that. Senator Teller. The Government could appropriate this money for you if it would, but that I don't know. There are some of the ways of Congress that are inscrutable and past finding out, so I am not in a position to hold out any hope to you. Mr. MuRROw. Well, now, gentlemen, there is one other thing I want to say to you, and it is about this lease system. This lease system is a bad thing. They are almost without exception frauds. There are 10,000 leases here that are fraudulent, and it ought to be looked into. The guardianship matter is very bad, too, and that S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 .57 882 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. ought to be looked into, and it ought to be corrected. Now, there is another thing that is beginning to come up here, and that is the hydra-headed monster of wills; it is the matter of wills. That is a new species of graft that these ingenious gentlemen so skilful in inventing ways and means of defrauding the Indian have devised. The Chairman. We heard something about that at Muskogee, I believe. Mr. MuEROW. Well, you can't hear too much about it. I tell you, fentlemen, that there are hundreds and hundreds of these wills that ave been made by these Indians — these more ignorant Indians — to white men, conveying their property to white men, for that is just what it amounts to, for practically^ nothing, and, as I said, there are hundreds of these wills that white men are holding and waiting for the time to come when they can bring them forward and have them validated or legalized. The Chairman. That is in connection with the sale of land ? Mr. MuRROW. I don't know; they will have the will. The Chairman. Well, that is in connection with land that can't be sold under the law? Mr. Murrow. Yes, sir. The Chairman. They can't bring them forward until the Indian is dead ? Mr. MuRROW. No, sir. They can't offer them for probate until he is dead, but they are holding them, waiting for that time. The white men are preparing against that time, and I don't believe that white people should be allowed to heir the property of these full-blood people. Senator Teller. Well, Doctor, in about six months you will have a State government and then all these things will belong to the State for regulation. When you are a Territory the United States Govern- ment can enact all the legislation necessary for the protection of the Indians and whites alike, but when you become a State the Govern- ment of the United States will have no more authority over an Indian than it will have over a white man. They will all be citizens — both red and white and mixed bloods — just as much as you will be or as I am of my own State, for the United States Government will have given up its claim of guardianship over these Indians. We might in the next six months take some action, but inasmuch as in about six months you will have a State government that can do these things, it is improbable that Congress will take any action along the lines you indicate. Mr. Murrow. I know we will have a State government in a short time, and that is what I fear. That is where the danger lies. I want protection for the Indians now that will protect them then. Senator Teller. Well, you will have to look to the State of Okla- homa for protection for the Indians. Mr. Murrow. Yes, I know that, but what a hope that is. If we look to the people who will be running the State of Oklahoma, we will be looking to people who don't care a snap for the Indians. Senator Teller. Oh, I hope not; I don't want to think that? Mr. Murrow. I don't think anything about it. I know them. What is the Indian to them? They think he stands in the way of their interest and, depend on it, they are going to stand together as FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 883 against the Indians. When I say Indians in this connection, I mean the full bloods. The Chairman-. You don't thinlc there is a prejudice against the Indians ? Mr. MxmROW. I say there is a prejudice — a race prejudice. The Chairman. Well, you don't think, do you. Doctor, that the prejudice against these full bloods down here is such that the people as a people — as a whole — of this great new State you are going to form down here would deliberately stand back of a policy of robbery practiced against these full bloods, and would not see that they were afforded the full protection of the laws, and safeguarding their inter- ests in the same manner that they protect and safeguard the interest of any other of its citizens? You don't mean to say that you believe that. Doctor? Mr. MuRROW. I think inside of a year that these full bloods would be deprived of almost every bit of their property. The Chairman. Then I understand you to say that you believe you can get together 1 ,200,000 white citizens in any State or section of this country that would deliberately set about the robbery of some of their defenseless and helpless fellow-citizens? Mr. MuBRow. As God is my judge, I do believe it. The Chairman. I don't believe it. Mr. MuRROW. I do beUeve it. The Chairman. I don't believe it. It is a slander on the State of Oklahoma to make such a statement. Mr. MuRROW. I believe as firmly as I believe I am standing here before you that the State of Oklahoma will rob these Indians of every foot of land they own, if the opportunity is given it to do so. That is my honest conviction. Senator Teller. I think you are wrong. Doctor. I believe you are honest in your conviction, but at the same time I think you are mistaken. Mr. MuRROW. Well, I don't believe I am, and I appeal to the devel- opments of the future to show whether I am or not. I hope I may be, but I don't believe I am. Senator Teller. They may be careless about some things, but they won't do that, Doctor. Depend on it, they won't do that. Mr. MuRROw. Well, I may be mistaken, but the conviction is strong in me that I am right. Now, let me relate an instance that occurred in this very town. Now, I want to say that these people down here have a very strange idea of morality as connected with a full-blood Indian. That is, if dealing with you they would have a different code of morals that they would apply than if they were dealing with a full-blood Indian. I will relate the incident that occurred here. There was a revival meeting going on here and it was a good meeting and a successful one, and this gentleman was a good man, a Christian man, for he went to another gentleman in this town, and he said to him "don't you think it is a good time to be seeing about our eternal interests?" and the man that was addressed in that way was embarrassed, for he thought his friend was in earnest, but he told him that he would think about it, and lie did think about it that day and that night and the next day, and then there was an Indian woman came to him and she said she was in trouble, for she said that this Mr. so and so, mentioning the name of this Christian 884 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. gentleman, "he has leased my land," she said, "and he is notdoing right by me," and she went ok. and said that she wished this man to whom she told her story would investigate the matter for her, which he did, and he found that this Christian — this man who had invited him to come to the meeting and be converted and be a Christian, had deliberately wronged that poor woman out of a portion of her estate. Now, that is the feeling of a great many here, people who pretend to be Christians, too — they feel that they are white and the other party is an Indian and an Indian has no rights that a white man is bound to respect. Now, I know I am using strong language and you may think it is imprudent for me to use it, but it has always been my habit when I knew a wrong was being perpetrated to raise my voice against it, and that is what I am doing now. Cost what it may I will denounce it as long as breath is left in my body, and I say that I know that these Indian people are beiug robbed daily by the white people of their property. The Chairman. By some of the people you mean? Mr. MtniROW. Yes, .sir; by some of them; but the others stand by and see it done, and with very few exceptions none of them raise their voice in protest against it. I say by some of the people, and the others are standing by sicking them on, and the law affords no protection against the methods that are resorted to. It is a case of craft against simplicity and ignorance, of guile against guilelessness. Now, I have given my message. I have testified for these full bloods and these orphan children, and if you give anything toward our orphans' home you may rest secure in the consciousness that it has been given for a worthy cause and in the interest of humanity and civilization. Our mission, as we see it, is to save these helpless orphans from growing up in idleness and ignorance and crime, and we think this is an object that is worthy of the Government of the United States to help to accomplish. Senator Teller. If you hope to interest the Congress of the United States, you had better interest the Choctaw and Chickasaw authorities to take up the matter. Mr. MuRROW. They will do it. You can easily do it. Senator Teller. I will say that you can get it under these cir- cumstances, but you won't get it without their active assistance and cooperation. Mr. MuRROw. I am through. Thank you, gentlemen. The Chairman. We will now take an adjournment until to-morrow morning at 9 o'clock. Accordingly the committee adjourned till to-morrow, Tuesday, November 20, 1906, at 9 a. m. McAlester, Ind. T., Tuesday, November 20, 1906. The committee met at the Hotel Busby at 9 a. m. Present : Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming (chairman) ; Long, Brandegee, Teller, and Clark, of Montana. The Chairman. It is the intention to devote this session to hearing from the Choctaws and Chickasaws, through their representatives, on matters of general interest, in reference to such legislation as has FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 885 been, and as to such legislation as will be sought to be had at the coming session of Congress. Mr. MoMuRRAY. By act of the Choctaw and Chickasaw councils the governors of the nations were authorized to appoint committees or commissions for the purpose of meeting with this conunittee, and they are now here and wish to speak to you on the various matters of general interest to them. The speakers are going to try and be brief with these matters. The first speaker will be Governor McCur- tain. STATEMENT OP GOVERNOR McCTJRTAIN. Governor McCuetain. Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Com- mittee : It is a hard matter for me to speak to you in a language that I really do not understand, but at the same time I think that it is my duty to attempt to enlighten this committee as to what I think is the wishes of my people. Now, we have had a government here which was established many years ago by an agreement with the Government of the United States. By another agreement we had agreed to abolish this government and that it should expire last March — 1906. Well, for some reason the Government extended our tribal government, but it is only a shell of a government; it is hardly anything. Now, I am acting as a representative of theirs, but at the same time I do not feel any longer that I act as chief, that I have any authority. That authority has all been altogether taken away; I do not exercise any at all, whatever. Now, the only authority that I have is to sign deeds ; I can call my council together; my council can come together and pass such laws as they tmnk fit these people should have, at the same time they have no valid force without the approval of the President of the United States. They are just completely without any authority. Now, what I want to ask this committee to do is this : This tribal government does really no good and is a great expense. We are not anxious to have our tribal government exist, but are anxious to have it exist to wind up our tribal affairs. We do not care for the tribal government; we are not anxious for that; but we want our affairs settled up and settled up speedily. We are anxious for that. We are not caring anything for the government, but we want what is really ours. We are not asking this Government to give us anything that we are not entitled to; we are only asking what is really ours, and we want that settled now. As to other matters, others will tell you about them; I am to speak generally; but I will tell you this, we want to have the coal land sold, and we want it settled now. We do not want the coal and the surface sold separately; we want it all sold together, and we want it sold now. We have a committee. Our council passed a law creating a com- mission, and this commission has been appointed by me. Now we came together. The Chickasaws have the same interest as we have. Well, we went into a general convention last night and agreed upon who should speak upon the different subjects, and we took up each subject, so that we could understand each other. As to my information, I am not authorized by any law at all to speak, but if you wish to ask me any questions I am at liberty to answer. I was to speak generally. 886 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. What I want to get is your views on the coal-land proposition. What have you to say about that? Governor McCurtain. I understand there are parties here that want to separate the surface from the coal. I am bitterly opposed to that. The Chairman. Why? Governor McCurtain. For this reason: If sold separately one party will want room on the surface to mine the coal and the other will want to settle on it and use it, and there will be damage suits. The Chairman. Then your view, as I gather it from what you were saying here, or from what Mr. McMurray said, or someone else who was speaking for the nations, is that these coal lands belong to the Indians; that they believe that they can dispose of them in such a way as to bring the greatest returns to the Indians. In other words, by disposing of them in larger quantities you can get more money out of it than if they are disposed of in the way suggested to the committee. Governor McCurtain. Yes, sir. The Chairman. To wit: Selling the surface and the coal separately? Governor McCurtain. Yes, sir. Governor McCurtain. Now, the Choctaw and Chickasaw people are anxious to get out of business. We do not want to establish any land-office business here. We are anxious to dispose of the property that we have, so that we can pull up stakes and quit. They want to become the same as any other citizen of the United States. We do not want our matters to be running on always; we want to dispose of it all now. My idea is this: I believe the Government should allow the Choctaw and Chickasaw people the right to plan' how we should dispose of it. I think there ought to be a law creating a commission. Of course we would want to be known on that commission. One Chickasaw, one Choctaw, all appointed by the United States Presi- dent ; the commission to put this on the market and get the best price for it. We do not care who buys it. We do not care for any mo- nopoly. We do not care who gets it, just so we arc relieved of it. That is all that we are asking. Senator Long. You mean all of the coal property, surface and min- ing rights ? — A. "Yes, sir. Q. What you want is to have your affairs wound up, the money distributed among you, and to become citizens of the Umted States ? — A. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The Indian should be on the same footing as any other citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What are your views regarding the removal of restrictions from the mixed bloods ? — A. I think that I am more acquainted with these people than anybody else. I am among these people. _ Senator Long. How long have you been governor? — ^A. Well, I feel like I had been governor pretty near always. I have really been governor eight years, going on nine. Q. How often have you been elected ? — A. Every two years. My term would have been out last October. Q. You are holding over? — A. Yes, sir. Now, the way I feel about it, you can go among the full bloods, you can go among the half bloods, and among the whites and the mixed whites and you will find FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 887 ignorant ones. You can not make that distinction between the full bloods and the half breeds. The full blood is iust as much intelligent as the half blood. You can not make that distinction. Of course, you -will find among the half bloods those that are not intelligent, and so it is with the full bloods. It is not a question of blood. Why, if you would go over into Arkansas you would be surprised Senator Long. What do you think of the legislation of last April against permitting the full blood to sell any of his allotment? — A. I think that is wrong. Q. What do you think should be done? — A. I think that the restrictions should be removed, with some protection for these people in some way. Of course, I understand it is difficult, and there are so many grafters. I think that some one ought to be appointed, if the restrictions are removed, to have charge of these sales, so that they can not be cheated out of their property. Q. Some court or tribunal, here on the ground, independent of Washington, to pass upon the price, and whether the sale is best. Is that your view? — A. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Going back to this coal land, are you familiar with the nature and character of this entire segregation ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What land is there in that segregation that, in your opinion, is fair agricultural land ? — A. The Stigler district is about the only land that I know of that is valuable for agricultural purposes. Q. What per cent of the entire area of that four hundred and forty odd thousand acres would be valuable for agricultural purposes? — A. I would not care to answer that question. The coal trustee should be able to give that information. Q. Of course, I meant in your judgment. — A. In my judgment, there is only that one district. Q. How many acres in that? — A. Well, there must be somewhere along about 27,000 acres. Q. What do you think would be a fair value per acre for the surface of that segregation for farm or grazing purposes, or anything else ? — A. Well, in that district that I was telling you about, right there near Stigler, I know a man who went in there .and put in improvements and it was segregated and that took away everything that he had, his home, farm and everything, and he came to me and asked what I thought that bottom land was worth, and I told him $40 per acre. It lies right next to the river bottom. I would be willing myself to pay $40 per acre for it if he could give a good title. By the Chairman : Another matter : After all the allotments are taken, there will still be something like 3,000,000 acres of land remaining. What is your view as to what should be done with that? — A. The agreement pro- vided that that should be sold by the Government within a short time, and I would insist that that should be carried out. Q. Where is this land largely located ? — A. In the country. Q. In the southeastern part of the Territory ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is any of it timber land ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Any of it good timber land ? — A. In some parts, but the biggest portion of it is not. It is very rough, and nobody lives there much, very few. Q. Why was not this part of the agreement carried out? — A. Well, there was great delay, sometimes due to the acts of Congress and some- 888 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. times due to different constructions placed upon them by the Secretary of the Interior. Then there was difficulty in making up the rolls. We think it was mostly due to that. Q. What do you think should be done with these three million acresf — A. I think it should be placed on the market right at once and disposed of same as the coal land. I can explain to you that my peo- ple do not want to have anything holding over when statehood comes. That was the understanding when we agreed to have our property divided. I talked this matter over personally with Dawes — Senator Dawes — and he assured me at the time we were agreeing to make this division of property, and I was the one that insisted that we should make the treaty with the Government, and he assured me that thg Government would carry out the terms of the agreement. I went out and stumped among my people, urging that they should ratify this agreement, and explained to my people that it would be carried out. For that reason I want to have a settlement, so that they can get what is justly due them. We are not asking the United States Government for anything that is not justly due us. We only ask that which we are justly entitled to. By Senator Long: Q. You want a settlement and want it now.? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you are in favor of an immediate distribution.? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is popular with both whites and Indians.? — A. Yes, sir. But we have nothing against the white brother. We are glad to have him live amongst us. We are not after his shirt or his coat Q. But you suspect that he is after yours.? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. There was mention made here yesterday that certain officers, and especially the coal inspectors and other officers of the Indian Nation, had not been paid for several months. — A. Yes, sir. Q. What officers are those.? — A. The act of Congress continuing the tribal governments provides that no appropriations can be made by the tribal councils without the approval of the President of the United States, except for .the regular and necessary expenses of the tribal government and its officers, and when the legislature was in session it made these appropriations, but for some reason the Secre- tary held them up, I think, ever since last February. Then there is another reason why our tribal government should be restored until our affairs are wound up, and that is on account of the courts. Our laws have been violated and there is no way to reach the man. The United States courts have jurisdiction only in murder cases and disturbance of the peace; as to other offences the United States courts have no jurisdiction over Indians. In a case of lar- ceny Q. Have the tribal courts been abolished.? — A. No ; that extension carried everything with it, but they are the same as abolished the way the Secretary holds. Now in case a man steals, we can not compel the witnesses to come into court and we can not compel the attendance of a jury. We can have him arrested by a United States deputy marshal and taken before a United States commissioner and they say that they have no juris- diction. That is the predictment we are in now. I myself do not draw any salary; I am governor only in name, and others are in the , FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 889 same shape. Of course there are officers who have to travel to per- form their duties and they have to pay their expenses and it is hard on them, but they are going on, hoping to get it after awhile. I have to travel around a great deal, too. So do the coal trustees. Senator Long. You had some trouble with the Secretary of the Interior about some Chickasaw warrants.^ — A. No, sir; that was the Chickasaws. By Senator Clakk, of Montana: Q. How long has it been since you were paid your salary ? — A. My salary has not been paid for three or four months. Q. Have you made application for it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long since the other officers have received their salaries ? — A. Of course we have oiir treasurer here to give you this information, but I wUl give it to you just as I understand it. The secretary directed that the treasurer make a list of the indebtedness of the Choctaw Nation. This list was made up and everything listed and sent in to him, but the money matters are still held up. Q. Were they ever held up before in this way? — A. No, sir. By The Chairman : Q. When was that list made? — ^A. About the fh-st of August. By Mr. McMurray: On the question of the segregation of the coal lands we have Mr. Hampton Tucker. STATEMENT OF MB. HAMPTON TUCKER. By the Chaieman: Q. Where is your residence? — A. South McAlester. Q. What ofiicial position do you hold? — A. Coal trustee for the Choctaw Nation. Q. What are the duties of that office ? — A. To inspect the records of the different coal and asphalt mining companies at least once a month. We go generally to the mine offices of the operators through- out the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and find out from their mining records exactly how much coal they mine each month. The Chairman. We would like to hear from you now as to what- ever you have to present. Mr. Hampton Tucker. I have here a tabulated statement show- ing the amount of coal land and the amount of asphalt land segre- gated. The statement also shows the number of acres of coal land by districts. The statement is as follows: Coal and asphalt land segregation. Acres. Land segregated under supplementary agreement 445, 052 Land segregated since supplementary agreement; Acres. Under act of April 28, 1904 330 Under last Indian appropriation bill 160 Total coal and asphalt land segregated 445, 542 890 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Coal and asphalt lands: Acres. Coal land 438, 302 Asphalt land 7, 240 Total 445, 542 Leased and unleased: Coal land — Leased 101, 360 Unleased 336, 942 Total 438, 302 Asphalt lands — Leased 6, 400 Unleased 84"0 Total 7, 240 COAL LANDS BY DISTKICTS. McAlester district: Leased 49, 730. 00 Unleased 65, 510. 80 Total 115, 240. 80 McCurtain-Massey district: Leased 9, 560. 00 Unleased— ^o"^- Segregated 79, 833. 16 Lease canceled 960. 00 80,793.16 Total 90, 353. 16 Wilburton-Stigler district: Leased 10, 890. 00 Unleased 69, 738. 82 Total 80, 628. 82 Howe-Poteau district: Leased 10, 560. 00 Unleased 64, 615. 45 Total 75, 175. 45 Lehigh- Ardmore district: Leased 20, 620. 00 Unleased — Segregated 52, 432. 51 Leases canceled 3, 840. 00 56,272.51 Total 76, 892. 51 The following statement shows by districts the number of coal leases in operation, with their acreage. It also shows the number of asphalt leases in operation and their number not in operation. ITVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 891 Statement showing by districts number of coal leases in operation and number of coal leases not in operation. McAIester district: In operation Not in operation. Total. ■Wilburton-Stigler district: In operation Not in operation Total. Lehigh- Ardmore district: In operation Not m operation Total. McCurtain-Massey district: In operation Not in operation Total. Howe-Poteau district: In operation Not in operation . . . Total. Number of leases. Acres of land. 34,610 15,120 49,730 10,890 10,890 16,780 3,840 20,620 5,760 3,800 9,660 3,840 6,720 10,560 Recapitulation, shomng total number of coal leases in operation and total number not in operation. Number of leases. Acres of land. In operation Not in operation Total 71,880 29,480 101,360 Asphalt leases, operated and not operated. Leases. Acres. 6 4 3,880 2,520 Total.. 9 6,400 I also submit a statement showing the coal and asphalt royalty collected from the time the Department began the collection of roy- alty, or from July 1, 1898, to and including June 30, 1906. During that period the coal lands have yielded the nations a royalty averag- ing $337.60 per acre. 892 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Statement showing coal and asphalt mined in Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and roy- alty collected thereon from July 1, 1898, to and including June SO, 1906. Fiscal year ended June 30— Coal mined. Asphalt mined. 1899 Tons. 1,404,442 1,900,127 2,398,156 2,735,365 3,187,035 3,198,862 2,859,516 2,722,200 Tons. 12,950 1900 J 11, 108 1901 . 3,492 1902 5,104 1903 5,418 1904. 4,846 10,115 1905 1906 2,654 Total for 8 years . . 20,405,703 2,550,713 55,687 6,961 Total coal acreage worked out in 8 years, estimating 4,000 tons workable coal per acre 5, 101 Average coal acreage worked out per year 638 Coal royalty collected. Asphalt royalty collected. 1900. 1901., 1902. 1903. 1904. 1905. 1906. $108,849.93 137,377.82 198, 449. 35 245,848.01 269,686.58 276,311.84 245,858.66 249,690.52 SI, 295. 32 1,108.68 1,214,20 1, 613. 35 2,243.26 1,500.00 2,569.80 2,256.50 Total for 8 years.. Average per year. 1,722,072.31 216,259.04 13,701.01 1,712.63 Average coal royalty per acre during 8 years, S337. 60. The leased coal lands are well located as to railroad facilities. Of the 111 leases, 81 of them have direct track connections with main lines of railroad; 21 are traversed by railroads, but have no track connections. Out of the HI leases only 9 are not reached by rail- roads, although none of them are inaccessible. The Chairman. These leases that are not reached by railroads, are they within reasonable reach of the railroads, or would long spurs have to be constructed? — A. They are all within easy reach of rail- roads. I make these statements simply because there seems to be some misunderstanding as to the exact railroad facilities in connec- tion with these leased coal lands. By Senator Claek, of Montana. How many leases are not reached by railroads? — A. Only 9. Q. How many leases are owned by the railroads ? — A. I figure that 46 leases, covering 43,140 acres, are largely controlled by railroads. Q. The other leases are owned by individuals and companies ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In the operation of these leases, do you find any complaint on the part of the owners of the leases not owned by the railroads or controlled by them as to the supply of cars or other facilities for the operation of their leases ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Generally in the fall months there are complaints about a car shortage. This is especially true of operators with mines on Rock Island tracks. They complain that they can not get cars to make shipments. This has been particularly true this last quarter. The Milby & Dow Coal and Mining Company stated that they could have mined 50 per cent more coal if they had had the cars. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 893 By Senator Long: Q. Did they complain that the mines of the Eock Island were furnished with cars when they were not? — A. No, sir; there seemed to be a general scarcity of cars. Q. They made no claim about being discriminated against? — A. No, sir. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. Do you know of any other facilities that there seems to be any complaint about on the part of the owners of leases ? — A. No, sir. Q. Would the present railroad facihties be adequate for the opera- tion of these leases that are not now in operation, or would there have to be constructed long spurs or branches; in other words, to get a much larger field would the present railroad facilities be sufficient with small extensions? — A. I think small extensions from the present mainlines would supply proper railroad facilities. Q. Would there be any difficulties in the way of grading or bridges ? — ^A. I think not. Q. You think the coal field in the Indian Territory is pretty well supplied with railroads? — ^A. Yes, sir; and I think that leases not now reached by railroads can be reached by small extensions from the main lines of present railroads. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Do your duties as coal trustee cause you to inspect the physical condition of the mines ? — A. No, sir. Q. Simply the books and the output? — ^A. Yes, sir. » Q. Did you have any experience in the coal business before you were appointed coal trustee? — A. No, sir; but I had been in the office of the coal trustee since the office was started in 1899. Q. What is your age ? — ^A. Thirty-five years. Q. Have you any knowledge on the question of this royalty of 8 cents per ton, as to whether it is a fair royalty or not, or any opinion on that subject? — A. I believe that 8 cents per ton is fair to the nations. Q. Is it fair to the operators ? — A. I think it is fair to the operators also, but they have always been kicking and ^sking for a reduction. Q. You think it is fair? — A. Yes, sir; fair to the nations and fair to the operators. Q. There is no complaint about it on the part of the nations ? — A. Not at this time. Q. Did I understand you to say that about 43,000 acres are con- trolled by the railroads ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And the total amount leased is about 101,000 acreS? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The railroads control a little less than half of the coal leases ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Of that 43,000 acres that is controlled by the railroads, can you make an exhibit showing how many acres are not in operation ? — A. Yes; about 15,000 acres. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. Have you the figures showing the total amount that has been paid to the nations since the leases have been in existence ? — A. Yes, sir. 894 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Q. What is the amount? — A. The present lease system by the department, or rather, the collection oi royalty by the department, began July 1, 1898; and beginning July 1, 1898, and coming to and including June 30, 1906, covering a period of eight years, the total amount of coal mined was 20,405,703 tons, or an average for the eight years of 2,550,713 tons. The amount of royalty collected during the eight years was $1,735,773.38. That includes the royalty on coal and asphalt actually mined, and advanced royalties and royalty col- lected on special clauses in some of the coal leases. The average annual royalty collected during this period on coal and asphalt was $216,971.67. By Senator Brandegee : Q. What was the total amount for your last year, I don't know when your year ends. — A. For the fiscal year ending June 30, 1906, it was $251,947.02, on coal and asphalt. Q. Last year about $250,000 was collected? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How was this divided between the nations?. — A. I understand it is divided in the proportion of three-fourths to the Choctaw Nation and one-fourth to the Chickasaw Nation. By Senator Teller: The United States Government disburses this money as it comes in ? — A. The money is sent to the United States Indian agent at Mus- kogee, Ind. T., under sworn statement, and is, I imderstand, depos- ited in the sub treasury at St. Louis by him. Q. Does he pay out any portion of it on account of the nations ? — ^A. I understand that he pays out the school expenses from it. By the Chairman: The proceeds of this coal is used entirely for the schools ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What disposition do you think should be made of this land? — A. I think the Choctaw and Chickasaw commissions, which are here to-day and headed by Governors McCurtain and Johnson, voice the sentiment of about 95 per cent of the Choctaw and Chickasaw people. We think it is best to sell it, and at the earliest practicable date. And as to the manner of sale, we are absolutely opposed to any system of sale that contemplates the separation of the coal from the surface. Q. Why? — A. In the first place, as I just stated, we want an imme- diate sale, and we believe a better and quicker sale can be made by selling the surface right and mineral right together. Then, again, if it is sold according to the commercial clubs and noncitizens generally, the sale will be on long-time payments, and that is the very feature that we are trying to avoid. If the surface is sold first, as the non- citizens demand, the Government wbuld have the responsibility of selling the mineral after the surface had been stripped from it. Again, vast tracts of the surface are rough, hilly, and not fit for farming. By selling such land with the mineral we might realize something for the surface right. If the mineral under such land is sold first, we fear we can not sell such surface to any advantage. Q. Do you think that you could get more money? — A. Yes, sir; by selling the mineral and the surface together, and quicker. We want it done at once. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 895 By Senator Long : And the proceeds divided? — A. Yes, sir; right away. By the Chairman : In regard to the other funds, the same is true; you want them divided? — A. Yes, sir; we want an immediate division of everything. Q. So far as the wishes of the nation are concerned as an organi- zation, and the people comprising that nation, they think that all the Indian property should be divided and allotted to the individual Indian pro rata? — A. Yes, sir; that is the wish of every Choctaw and Chickasaw. They want their affairs settled up immediately. The supplementary agreement provided that oxir coal lands should be sold within three years. The agreement was ratified on Septem- ber 25, 1902. The coal provision was one of the most important provisions of the agreement, and the Choctaw and Chickasaw people beUeved that the Government would carry out its promises and would sell these lands within the time specified. Q. Was it stated in terms in the face of the agreement that these lands should be sold within three years ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : What reason had you to suppose that the Government would do what it said it would in this instance ? It never did do anything that it promised these Indians, did it? — A. We still have hope that the Government will carry out its promises. By the Chairman : You think that the best interests of the Choctaw and Chickasaw people would be subserved by a full and immediate distribution of all the tribal property? — A. Without a doubt. Q. That refers both to the money now in the United States Treasury to the credit of the nations, to the money that may be obtained from the immediate or early sale of the coal segregation, and the money that may be obtained from the immediate or early sale of the remaining three million acres of land that will be on hand after all the allotments are taken? — A. Yes, sir. . Q. That is substantially the property that is still to be divided ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Another question in regard to the lands that the Indians now hold in severalty; as I understand it the Choctaw Nation has a very large allotment, as compared with some other nations; their home- steads average about two hundred acres, besides a very large sur- plus? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What would be your view in regard to the removal of the restrictions so as to enable these lands to be disposed of by the individual Indians? — A. I believe really the best interests of the Indians would be conserved by removing the restrictions upon the surplus of all, without regard to blood; but I believe that there should be some steps taken by the Government to insure that the selling price of the land actually comes into the hand of the Indian in cash. Senator Clark. Wouldn't there be some question about that? If you remove the restrictions and allow the Indian to become as any other citizen, won't he have the right to sell to whom and for what he pleases ? 896 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. By Senator Long: Q. It is not so much the trouble of the Indian getting his hands on the money as it is getting him to keep it after he has it? — A. There is something in that, but I think that if the Government insures his getting the money in his hands that is about as far as the Government can go. By the Chairman : Q. How would you suggest that the Government insure that a purchaser will actually carry out the bargain that he has made with an Indian ? — A. By the Government appointing some person for each recording district and providing that all sales or transactions pass through his hands. He would see that the price is adequate; that the money was actually paid; and that title did not pass until the money was actually paid. As it is now, the Indian whose restrictions have not been removed can not give good title. He can not get as much for his land as if he could give good title; but he does give such title as he can and gets what he can for it. The grafter gets immediate possession. He figures that by the time the Indian can sell legally and convey good title, the land will have yielded the grafter the purchase price and he will be out nothing, even if the Indian finally sells to some one else. Besides, the transaction has possibly clouded the Indian's title to his land. Q. I have heard it suggested that if the restrictions are removed, that some provision should be made for clearing the titles, and make the land free from any lien or incumbrance contracted prior to the time the restrictions are removed. What do you think about that? — A. I think that would be a very proper precaution for the Govern- ment to take, as many of the full bloods, I understand, have had their lands tied up in many ways by grafters. Q. It has been suggested by some gentlemen that it would not be good policy to remove absolutely the restrictions from the sale of the land of the full blood, but that some sort of a legal tribunal be estab- lished here on the ground that would be competent to remove the restrictions of the full blood, without referring the matter to the Fed- eral Department at Washington, but which could act at once and remove the restrictions of such full bloods, as after investigation, it should think best? — A. Answering offhand, it seems the plan you mention should protect the full bloods. Q. What do you say about the homesteads? — A. I do not believe the restrictions should be removed from the homesteads at all. Q. Not from any class ? — A. No, sir; not from any class. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Now, this grafting business; exactly how is that business con- ducted, or carried on? — A. I am not much acquainted with that; it is done mostly in the Chickasaw Nation, where there is good farming country, and as there are men from the Chickasaw nation who will follow me, I presume they can tell about it. Q. Have you any idea as to how many people are affected by it; how many are engaged in it? — A. No, sir; not exactly, but quite a number. Q. We ran across one at Muscogee, who seemed to be engaged in a sort of an organized scheme; have you heard of any of that Tiiad? — A. I have heard a great deal of grafters and their schemes. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 897 Q. Ai-e these grafters white men, or mixed bloods, or what ? — A. I think they are mostly white men. Q. Do they succeed in making contracts with a great many of these people? — A. No doubt about it. • Q. What do they give for these holdings'^ I have heard of cases where they got entire allotments for $25 a year? — A. I have heard of many cases of that kind. Q. How soon do they get possession ?— A. As soon as they get the lease. Q. How much do they give for a conveyance of title; such title as they are able to give? — A. As I stated a while ago, this business is largely in the Chickasaw nation. I live in the Choctaw nation, and in my work do not come in contact with them, but, generally speaking, the consideration is entirely inadequate. Q. Not much practiced here? — A. The best farming land is prac- tically all in the Chickasaw nation. By Senator Teller : Q. That is what they want, farming land ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Any minerals down here besides coal and asphalt; any gold, silver, lead, or anything like that? — A. Not that I know of. By Senator Brandeg^e : Q. Have you ever heard of a man getting a lease on the Indian lands and then have him make a will in his favor? — A. No, sir. Q. How thoroughly does the full-blood Indian understand the matter of land conveyancing? — A. It is new to him; he had no ex- perience with land titles at all previous to his present experience. They live in remote parts of the country, and their surroundings are not calculated to make them familiar with modern business methods generally. Q. If me restrictions on the sale of the lands of the full blood were removed, do you suppose he would proceed to ascertain the value of his surplus before selling it? — A. I don't really know about that. I am afraid he would be too much disposed to take the word of the purchaser. By Senator Long : Q. And, being a grafter, he of course would tell him the value of it?— A. Sure. By Senator Brandegee : Q. And, being a grafter, he would tell him the truth about it? — A. Certainly. Q. Suppose that after the restrictions on the sale of the surplus of the full bloods were removed and the purchaser does not pro- pose to pay the full purchase price down, but makes a cash payment and gives notes for the balance, do you know or do you think that the full blood would have common sense enough to collect the balance of the money as the notes became due in the future? — I mean in the case of this full-blood Indian living in the remote parts of the nation. — A. I could hardly say whether he would or not. And then, another danger would be that he might fall into the hands of a dishonest lawyer, who would rob him of most of the money that was S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 58 898 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. collected. I want to say that my work is confined to the coal dis- tricts and I come in contact with but few full bloods; therefore, I am not as familiar with the full-blood situation with reference to land matters as others who live in other parts of the country. Q. The fact is that the Indians are making and entering into unbusi- ness-like contracts now? — A. Yes, sir; undoubtedly many full bloods are. Q. And if the restrictions are removed will continue to get cheated ? — A. I believe they will. By Senator Teller : Q. You say you would remove the restrictions upon all but the homesteads, and then provide a tribunal by which the Government ' would exercise a general supervision over the transactions of the In- dians you think are not competent to transact their own business? — A. Yes, sir; over the full bloods. Q. Now, suppose you found that that could not be done; that when the restrictions are removed the Government will have no control over the Indians whatever; would you still be in favor of the removal of the restrictions? — A. I do not believe I would, un- less the Government can exercise some control over the contracts and transactions of the full bloods. Q. If the restrictions are removed, is there any way that the Gov- ernment of the United States can insist upon the payment being made under the circumstances, and to say what price shall be paid? Has not the Indian as good right as any one else to sell to whom he sees fit and for what price he pleases? In other words, is not your suggestion absolutely impractical and absolutely impossible? — A. If some supervision of the full bloods can not be had, I do not think that these restrictions should be removed. Even with his restric- tions on, the grafters succeed in getting possession of part of his lands now. Q. What we want to know is, if, in your opinion, we abandon the Indian to his own resources it would be better to take the restrictions off, or leave them on ? — A. I believe it best that the restrictions should be kept on the full bloods unless some supervision by the Government is had over his lands. Q. I think that you people had better proceed upon the theory that there will be no supervision, and I don't believe that Congress would do it. Senator Clark, of Montana. It would be impossible to get such an act. I agree with the Senator. By the Chairman: Then I understand your opinion to be that if there should be a difference of opinion as to the right of Congress to place restrictions upon, or, rather, to exercise supervision over the transactions of the Indians as to the paying over the money, the price, and terms, etc., you would be in favor, so far as the full bloods are concerned, of leav- ing the restrictions on for the period provided in the last act of Con- gress? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, what would you say as to the mixed bloods ? — A. I believe that the mixed bloods are competent to take care of their own prop- erty, as a general proposition. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 899 Q. Then I understand you to say that you would be in favor in any event of removing the restrictions upon the mixed bloods, except as to his homestead? — A. Yes. Q. If the coal lands should be put upon the market to be disposed of in fee simple, mining rights and surface, what would be your idea as to disposing of the people who now occupy portions of the sur- face? — A. As stated in the beginning, the Choctaw and Chickasaw people are in favor of the immediate sale of the coal lands, the mining right and surface together. We would leave to the purchaser to settle settle all questions with the occupants of the surface. Q. You would leave or place no restrictions upon the sale as to the occupant, but leave that to the purchaser and the occupant? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. If the sale of the surface apart from the miningright would bring more money than if sold together, would you not favor it? — A. The system of sale advocated by the noncitizens provides for the sale of the siu-faco on long-time payments, and for that reason Q. But if it was only a question of getting more money; if more money could be had by selling the surface and the mining right sepa- rately, what would you say ? — A. The Choctaw and Chickasaw people think as to the two systems of sale suggested the sale of the surface right and tlie mineral right together will bring the most money in the Quickest time, and that is the system they want. They want an imme- iate settlement. They think that the longer that they postpone the sale the more complicated it will become. And the separation of the surface right and the mineral right will greatly complicate the situa- tion. We are exceedingly anxious to dispose of our coal lands before our tribal government shall end. Q. But if the surface is sold immediately for cash and the mining right for cash, and by so doing more money can be gotten? — A. We do not want the surface separated from the mineral under any cir- cumstances. Q. What if any objection should be raised to allowing the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations to sell this land, either the surface or the min- ing right, to one party ? — A. If the Government will consult us, we will respectfully dechne to allow the surface right to be separated from the mining right. We want them both sold together. We don't care who gets them; we would favor selling both to one party if the price offered was satisfactory. Q. You just want them sold ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They are willing to risk a monopoly from which they will afterwards have to buy coal? — A. The nations don't care who buys their coal lands, so long as the price paid is sufficient. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. Your position is that the Choctaws and Chickasaws want to sell these lands as they see fit?— A. Yes, sir. The supplemental agreement provides for these coal lands to be sold, and we want that agreement carried out in so far as it authorizes the sale. By Senator Long: Q. That agreement has been repealed by act of Congress? — A. Yes, sir. 900 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. And not by treaty ? — A. No, sir; not by treaty. Q. Do you think that the coal operators want to purchase the sur- face, or just the coal? How do they feel about that? — A. I have not heard them express themselves upon the question. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. They do not need all of the surface for their plants. They use only a small portion of the surface for their operations. Just enough for their plants ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Both the coal and the surface could be worked. Coal mining does not prevent the surface from being worked ? — A. No, sir. By Senator Brandegee : Q. I have heard it suggested in Washington by people who wanted to do the best for the Indians that these coal lands should not be sold now, because as the coal fields in the other parts of the country became exhausted that these Indian coal lands would become more valuable, and by selling the surface now the coal could in the future be sold for a much higher price; I would like to know whether your people are willing to take all chances and sell now, irrespective of the fact that by waitmg ten years, or more, you could realize more money ? A. We want an immediate sale of both the coal and the surface. Q. If one man, or one corporation should make the highest bid, you are in favor of accepting that ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Irrespective of the effect it may have on your country here? — A. Yes, sir. The Choctaw and Chickasaw people are not concerned about future political conditions. Q. You have been inspecting the mines and books of these com- panies for about how long ? — A. I inspect the books only. Q. For how long? — A. Since 1902. I was in" the office of the coal trustees before that time as clerk. Q. How long?— A. From March, 1899, to December, 1902. Q. It is a pretty broad question and the estimates are wide apart, but what would you say is your best opinion as to the minimum that would be a fair value for all of the Choctaw-Chickasaw interests in these coal fields ? — A. I have never undertaken to figure that. I do not feel authorized to figure that for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. Q. Can you give any idea as to what is the general opinion among the nations as to what is the least they ought to get out of this coal field? — A. I do not believe I ever heard a definite expression from them upon that question. Q. I have heard it stated that they were worth from $15,000,000 to $50,000,000; have you ever heard those figures mentioned ? — A. Yes, sir. I have heard them mentioned, but not by any person with authority to speak. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. Do you know of any effort on the part of the Secretary of the Interior to sell the coal lands under the laws enacted by Congress, looking to the sale of the coal lands? — A. Congress changed the plan from that of public auction to the private-bid plan. Q. Anything done under that plan? — A. I understand that parts of the land were offered for sale. Q. Any of it sold? — A. No, sir. The Secretary was not satisfied with the price. FIVE CIVILIZE!) TRIBES. QOl Q. You kaow what was offered ? — A. No, sir. Q. What have you to say as to the respective merits of the two flans, that of selling at public auction or by private bids ? — A. Well, naay say that we have already had the sealed-bid plan and that was not satisfactory; and as the public-auction plan is the plan we agreed to in the supplemental agreement, we would be satisfied with that plan. Q. You would prefer that to the sealed-bid plan ? — A. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF MELVEN CORNISH, OF McALESTER, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. State your name, please. — A. Melven Cornish. I am a member of the firm of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, the general attorneys for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. Q. Where is your residence ? — A. South McAlester. Q. You may proceed. — A. I want to speak to you briefly now on the question of this coal segregation. I shall speak later in the day on the question of citizenship, and I will now confine myself to reflecting the views and desires of the Choctaw and Chickasaw people in regard to this coal field. We have been among these people for a long time and know inti- mately what their views are. Their views on this question are pro- nounced and positive. This question, next to the question of citizen- ship, is the most important of all affecting their property. I say next to citizenship, because the question of citizenship is of the most importance. But next to that comes the matter of the sale of these segregated coal lands. First, I want to say that the Choctaw and Chickasaw people are simply amazed at the statements of Mr. Cameron, the United States mine inspector, and at his earnest, positive statements as to the value of this property. We are at a loss to understand why he, an officer of the United States, should be so anxious to beat down the value of this property; and anyone hearing him could only judge that he sought to convey the impression that is was of little value. The Choctaw people have been in the habit of considering that it has considerable value, and this is proved by the fact that this field has been operated at a profit for from twenty to thirty years, and that great fortunes are being made and have been made from it, and that the present operators are desirous of continuing. That is ample evidence that it has some value. And yet, in the face of all of this, Mr. Cameron would have you gentlemen believe that it was of small value. Why, Mr. Cameron barely admitted that this coal is a cooking coal. He just barely admitted it. According to his state- ments the nations would have to pay some one a bonus to take these coal lands off their hands. Why an officer of the United States should seek to create the impression that the lands of these Indians were without value is more than we can understand, and we bitterly resent his efforts to make them appear valueless. As a matter of fact, they are very fair coal lands, as is evidenced by the fact that the present operators are desirous of continuing to operate them. Nearly all of Mr. Cameron's testimony was in reference to one vein. Now, as a matter of fact, there is more than one vein in this country. There are three veins here — the Secor vein, the McAlester vein, and the 902 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Hartshorne vein. Most of Mr. Cameron's testimony was directed to the Secor vein, while everyone knows that the Secor vein is valueless. The McAlester vein, which outcrops in this vicinity, is of great value and is better coal than most of the bituminous coal found elsewhere in the United_ States. The Hartshorne is also a valuable vein and has been and' is being operated at a profit. Yet in the face of all this, and in the face of all published reports and estimates, Mr. Cam- eron would have you believe that this field is of small value. The value of this field has been exaggerated in one direction as far as this is in the other. Those statements are absurd. So is this. They are just as absurd as this. And as I have said, that this is a field of some value is proved by the fact that large fortunes have been amassed here and are being made, and that the present oper- ators want to continue and are anxious to continue. The Choctaw and Chickasaw people are amazed at the anxious and earnest efforts of Mr. Cameron, an officer of the United States Government, who should be the last person in the world to do so, to belittle the value of the property of these Indians. Now, then, that is all I have to say about Mr. Cameron. Now, as to the sale of these coal lands, the Choctaw and Chicka- saw people oppose any attempt to dispose of the surface separately from the coal. A plan for the disposal of these lands was agreed upon in the supplemental agreeraent, and that plan is set forth in terms in the face of the agreement. That agreement was ratified by a popular vote of the nations and they wish that agreement carried out. They wish to sell out these lands and close up their affairs, but they respectfully decline, in so far as they have the power, to have these lands sold with the mineral rights separate from the surface. If they are permitted to do so, they can dispose of these lands in one body at a price which they are. willing to taJse for them, and do it in a short time after they are authorized to do so. As to who gets them, or what becomes of them, they feel is no concern of theirs. They feel, and I reflect the views of fully 95 per cent of these people, that the Government agreed to a plan for disposing of these lands, which they are now willing should be carried out, but that if the Government is not willing that it should be carried out, for fear of creating a monop- oly, or for any other reason, then the Government should take these lands off their hands at the same price that they can get for them if allowed to dispose of them themselves. In other words, their propo- sition is this, carry out the agreement, or let us sell them in the way we want to, or else buy them yourself. That is their proposition. Senator Teller. How do you propose to sell the lands ? — A. Just as they stand. The Indians feel that they have been in a bad partner- ship, and they want their affairs settled up now. Every day they remain unsettled, and every new development only complicates them. They really do not care how they are sold or to whom they are sold, except that they be sold now and for cash. If the Government is not willing to do this, they want the Government to take them off their hands for the same price as they can get if left to sell them in their own way. Senator Teller. I thinli that you might as well dismiss that idea now. The Government will not buy these lands. If we paid what Senator La FoUette says they are worth we will be accused of robbing the Government, and if we paid what the Indians will take we will be said to be robbing the Indians. FIVE CIVILIZEt) TRIBES. 903 Senator Clark, of Montana. The question of monopoly will have to be eliminated. You can never get a bill through Congress to sell these coal lands to one person or corporation. Mr. CoENiSH . As to a monopoly, the Indians feel that they have no concern. A plan for winding up their affairs was incorporated in the Atoka and supplemental agreements, and not the least important to them was the understanding and provision that these coal lands should be sold within three years, and while the Government has been a little slow they still have faith in the Government to carry out its part of the bargain. Now, we have in mind a price that we are willing to take for this property, and we can and will, at the proper time, find buyers who are willing to pay the price which is satisfactory to the Indians, if we are allowed to sell this property in our own way. It may be to syndicate and it may produce a monopoly, but the Indians feel that that is no concern of theirs. They feel that they are entitled under the solemn agreements with the United States Government to have their property sold, and sold at once for cash, and this they can do. Now, if the G-overnment objects to this for any reason, they feel that the Government should take these lands off their hands at the same price that they can get for it elsewhere, and thus enable them to settle up their affairs. They are willing to give the Government the first right to purchase, but feel that it is due them to be relieved of these coal lands now, that their affairs may be settled up, as was agreed. We can sell these lands in six months to a purchaser who is willing to pay a price satisfactory to us, if the Government will be willing to have them do so; otherwise, the Government should take the land and dispose of it in any way it sees fit. By the Chairman : What price would you be willing to take 1 — ^A. I do not feel that I am at liberty to state that now. We have a price in mind; but we do not feel that this would be the proper time to state it. Of course I am willing to give all the information that I can, and will do so when I come to Washington during the next session of Congress; but we do not believe that the best interests of the nations would be served by stating ft now. By Senator Clakk, of Montana: Q. Of course if you come to Congress with a proposition like that, you will have a definite figure named ? — A. Certainly, at the proper time we will name the am9unt and show that we can get the purchaser. By Senator Teller: Q. I don't believe that the Government is going to go into the busi- ness of buying coal lands. Then there is this public sentiment against a monopoly and you have got to defer to that. Suppose that this plan could not be carried out, would you suggest any other method ? — A. No, sir; the nations do not feel that they are concerned with those things. The question of a monopoly does not interest them. They stand on the proposition that they are entitled to an immediate sale, and they insist upon this with all the power that they have to insist upon it. Senator Long. I feel sure that if Congress should become con- vinced that these lands could be sold to a corporation for say twenty 904 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. million dollars and to private individuals for fifteen million, it would not take Congress long to decide which one it would accept. Senator Teller. It would never pass Congress, even if the com- mittee should recommend it. You know last year they cut our bill all to pieces. Adopted a different bill altogether. Mr. Cornish. But Senator, if they should try to sell it in small tracts after having sold the surface, it would be their children's children that would receive the benefits. This is not an original proposition with the Indians. It is one of several years' standing, and every day's delay siraply complicates matters and puts the settle- ment further off. These nations realize that, and they are willing to make great sacrifices to get an immediate settlement. They are not so anxious to get the highest price, as they are to get a fair price and get it now. Their property is doing them no good now and they want to get it settled up now. STATEMENT OF MR. J. GEORGE WRIGHT, INDIAN INSPECTOR FOR INDIAN TERRITORY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee : I feel it incumbent upon me to make a statement, as I obtained much of the data from which Mr. Cameron made his estimate. I have known Mr. Cameron for a number of years and this is the first time I have ever heard his integrity questioned. As I said, I furnished much of the data upon which he based his estimate. I wrote to the Secretary of the Interior and secured a copy of the report of the Geological Survey, and the reports of the examina- tions that had been made. The value of coal lands can only be determined by drilling and many of Mr. Cameron's estimates are based upon actual drilling records. Upon what does Mr. Cornish base his estimate? Has he ever made any drillings, or has he ever even consulted drilling records ? I took great pains to furnish Mr. Cameron with all the data that I could. I learned that Mr. Scholz of the Rock Island Coal Company had made extensive drillings. I wrote to Mr. Scholz at Chicago and he furnished me a copy of the drilling records. Learning that these drillings had been made by a private drilling com- pany for the benefit of the Rock Island Coal Company, I secured from the Sullivan Drilling Company a certified copy of the drilling records made in 1903, under their own certificate. Thus I had the certificate of a disinterested company as to the correctness of these drilling records and they agreed in every respect with those furnished by Mr. Scholz. I also obtained the drilling records of the Bolen-Darnall Coal Company and turned those over to Mr. Cameron. Mr. Cameron had before him, when he made up this estimate, every known drilling record that has been made in this Territory, and yet Mr. Cornish By Senator Brandegee: Q. Are these drilling records in the record here? — A. Yes, sir. I think that Mr. Cameron's estimate is the most authentic estimate of the value of these coal lands yet made. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 905 STATEMENT OF MK. WILLIAM CAMERON (UNITED STATES MINE INSPECTOR FOR INDIAN TERRITORY). May I be permitted to say a word.^ The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Cameron. I would respectfully ask that you look at my state- ment and see if I said that these lands were without value. I said that the segregated lands were worth $71,000,000 and again if you added to that those leased it made a total of $101,000,000. Does that say that they are without value ? That may be a small sum to Mm, but it looks like a big sum to me. My statement will show that 1 did not refer entirely to the Secor vein. I did say that from Craig, running down along the hne of the Choctaw from the mine of the Bolen-Darnall Coal Company to down about Edwards that the coal was 2 feet 8 inches thick, with a five-inch dirt parting, and pitching at about 50 degrees ; that is certainly almost valueless. Then again at Redoak, the coal there is of doubtful value. Then again I did not say what I forgot to say that in the Lehigh- Ardmore district, twenty years ago I prospected that coal under the direction of the Missouri Pacific Coal Company, and refused to recommend that they open upon it and my recommendation was accepted. In recent years a new company went in there and spent over $50,000 and have never got $1 return from it, which shows that that is withou tvalue. Then again the Missouri, Kansas and Texas, or the Southwestern Development Company, as it is called, prospected fourl eases, covering about 4,000 acres of coal land, and found them worthless and gave them up. Does that bear out my statement or the statement of the attorney.^ There is not one bit of truth in the statement that I have endeavored to belittle the value of this property. I have given an estimate, based on twenty years experience in this field, on all of the drilling records that are known to have been made, and have been fearless of the operator, the Geological Survey, and fearless of everyone, and I still stand on it and say that it is correct, to the best of my knowledge. STATEMENT OP MR. J. A. McMURRAY (ATTORNEY FOR CHOCTAW AND CHICKASAW NATIONS). It was stated here on Monday that the report of Mr. Taff was based largely on guesswork ; I want to correct that. Coal was first discovered here by old Mushontubbe, and for a while the coal was marketed in a small way by placing it on wagons and hauling it to the settlements. Since that time there have been many investiga- tions made. It is an easy matter for an experienced man to follow the crop of the coal. The contour of the ground is such that the coal can be easily detected and the crop followed for miles as fast as an experienced man can walk. The what is now the Missouri, Kansas and Texas was building through here, careful investigation was made and the survey of that road was made so as to carry the line across the top of the coal over here at Oldtown. Then again, when the Choctaw road was built, it was laid out to follow the crop of the coal from the Arkansas line to a few miles west of here. Mr. Taff availed himself of all. the information that he could find and it is considered by everybody down here that is in a position to know. 906 KVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. that Mr. Taff made a very good report of the coal field, considering the length of time that he had to work in. The next matter is the question of the unallotted lands. Mr. E. B. Johnson will speak to you on that subject. STATEMENT OF MB. E. B. JOHNSON, OF NORIVEAN, OKLA. By the Chairman: Q. What is your post-office address ? — A. Norman, Okla. Q. You live in the Indian Territory? — A. Yes, sir. The town is across the river. Q. You are a mixed blood? — A. Yes, sir. One-eighth Chickasaw. Q. Whom are you supposed to represent in any statements that you may make here ? — A. The Chickasaws and myself, and also the Choctaw interests in the lands in the Territory. The interest is joint. I am to talk about the unallotted lands. By Senator Long: Q. The unallotted lands. Do you refer to the segregated coal lands or to that portion of the land that will be unallotted after all the allotments have been taken up? — A. The lands that remain after all have received their allotments. Q. They are in addition to the coal lands ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How much of that is there ? — A. That is variously estimfoted, and depends upon the number of allotments. That depends upon how the rolls are finally made up. We think that there will be some- where near three million acres after the work of allotment has been completed. This is a matter that has been discussed in the commit- tee, and the committee agrees that they desire these lands disposed of the same as the segregated lands. By the Chairman : Q. How is that? — A. That all this land be auctioned off at public sale to the highest bidder, with no restrictions as to area, or nation- ality; that is to ssij, the Choctaws and Chickasaws want the right to bid on the lands if they see fit, but anybody to have the right to buy as much land as they can pay for, just as with the segregated coal lands. By Senator Long: Q. And want the sale on the same lines as contemplated for those lands? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any timber on these lands ? — A. Some pine. Not much. Q. Where is this land located? — A. In the Choctaw Nation. Q. What part of the Nation? — A. In the southeast portion. It is very rough land. Q. There are some tracts all over the two Nations? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They naturally try to get on the best land ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And this is what is left? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then this is supposedly the poorest land? — A. Yes, sir. It would naturally be the poorest land. Q. When this land was appraised, was it done after a pretty thor- ough examination of the land? — A. I was one of the appraisers on the part of the Chickasaws, although I did not serve throughout the entire appraisement. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 907 Q. Did you make a pretty close examination of the different classes of land? — A. Senator, they had to go on every 40 acres in order to make the appraisement, they had to actually be on every 40 acres, although there were quite a good many incompetent men among the appraisers. The appraisement was made by five camps, and after ten camps, and it was absolutely impossible for one man to be with all of these camps and see what was going on all the time. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. How many men to a camp ? — A. Six men to a camp. I think there were five camps originally, which was afterwards increased to ten. They would take a township, a strip six miles wide, and appraise it. Q. So that is the basis of this map we have heard about. That is based on an appraisement of each 40 acres ? — A. Yes, sir. That was done in order to make an equal division of this land according to quaUty. By the Chairman : Q. I suppose that appraisement was not made so much on the actual value of the land as it was on the comparative value of the land ? A. Yes, sir. It was made more on the relative value than it was on the actual value. It did not matter what the actual value of the land was so long as we could make an equal distribution of it. Each allot- ment was to have the same value, regardless of the number of acres in it. Each one was to have the same relative value. Q. What was the value in money of each allotment, on the compara- tive basis of that appraisement? — A. $1,044. Q. How many acres would there be to an allotment? — A. That depended upon the kind of land he took. If he took 25 cent land he would get 4,000 acres. If he took the best land he would only get 160 acres. Q. Were both nations represented at the appraisement? — A. Yes, sir. I was representing the Chickasaw Nation. Q. Were you representing the nation as a member of the appraise- ment board, or simply as an advisor and checker on the part of the nation? — ^A. Why, I suppose that I was recognized as being there in both capacities, in an advisory capacity and as a member of the board. Q. If there was any dispute or controversy your voice had the same effect as the voice of an appraiser appointed by the United States ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In your judgment, was this appraisement made by the Dawes Commission a fair comparative estimate of the value of the different classes of land ? — A. That would be a hard question to answer. Q. What would be a fair average value of these lands if sold in tracts of 160 acres for agricultural or any other purpose? — A. Of course I can only give an answer to that question from my knowledge of what the same or similar lands sell for in Texas and also in Okla- homa. I believe the average value would be $20 per acre. Q. That would be for the better land ?— A. The average land. Q. What in your judgment would be a fair average value for that class of land which I understand is the poorest land? — A. Well, I would base my judgment from the fact that I have made inquiries recently in Texas and also visited Texas and Arkansas on this very subject, and such land sells for from two to three dollars per acre. 908 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. Is that the minimum price, two and three dollars per acre? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is that, upland ? — A. Yes, sir, largely. Q. That is grass land? — ^A. Yes, sir. Not good for farming. Q. Is it good grass land? — ^A. Yes, sir. It is good grass land. It is rocky, but it is interspersed with good grass. Q. Some of it is in timber? — A. Yes, sir; some timber in spots. Q. Some of the 25-cent land has timber on it ? — A. No, sir; I think not. Q. Is there much valuable timber land throughout the country? — A. I think there is, although my knowledge is limited on that. I '%m in the prairie farming district, and the timber lands are inaccessible, rocky lands, and mountainous, and generally in the Choctaw Nation. By Senator Brandbgee : Q. Is the value of these lands increasing, do you think? — A. I think their value is increasing every day. Q. I do not doubt that now, but I mean if these questions had been asked you a year ago, would you have placed the same value on them that you do now? — A. A year ago I would. Yes, sir. Q. But the passage of the Statehood bill, that has tended to greatly increase values here? — A. No, sir; I think not. There was a pretty general emigration to this Indian Territory for this land and a great demand for this land throughout the entire west. Q. Don't you think that the Statehood bill, now that statehood is an assured fact, that that has greatly increased the value of the lands here ? — A. I think so ; yes, sir. It has been of some assistance. By the Chairman: Q. Where is this timber land located? — A. Mostly in the Choc- taw Nation. Q. Where in the nation? — A. In the eastern part. Q. In the southeastern part? — A. Yes, sir. Eastern and south- eastern. Q. It is a large area? — A. Y-s, sir. Q. What kind of timber?— A. Pine. Q. Yellow pine? — A. Yes, sir; some yellow pine. Q. Is there any other valuable timber there? — A. I don't know. Q. Most of that timber land was taken up by allotment? — A. I think so; yes, sir; that is valuable pine timber. Q. Do they lease that timber land? — A. I don't laiow. Q. They can not sell that? — A. No, sir. Q. Are there sawmills in operation there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. By whom? — A. By different companies. Q. What kind of concessions do they get from the allottees to run these sawmills ? — A. I am not familiar with those lands. There were no mills there when I was through that country, but I understand that there are mills there now. Q. They have to get some kind of a concession? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They are operating lawfully? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, I have heard it stated, with how much truth I don't know, that a very large proportion of the allotments made in this timber land, are made through the eflPorts of grafters, in order to get posses- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 909 sion of large areas of this land for commercial purposes. Do you know anything about that? — A. Personally I do not. I understand that has been done. Some others here may be more familiar with that than I am; but I have been advised that men are going through the country, and have made contracts with numbers of Indians and have allotted them on lands, and then lease them at a very small rental value, hoping when their restrictions are removed to get them at their own price. Q. You say that people are organized to engage in this nefarious business. "Wnat is their mode of procedure ? — A. There are numbers of Indians that live in the Choctaw Nation who wish to get their sur- plus located on farming lands in the Chickasaw, but on account of the expense they are unable to go there and inspect them. The grafter will agree to locate him on good lands for a lease for little or nothing, and he then enters upon possession of the land and gets good returns for it ; then the Indian gets practically nothing. Q. I think it has been said here that they sometimes show the Indian one piece of land and he thinks that he is filing on that good land, when, as a matter of fact, the land descril^ed in his allotment certificate may be poor land and be a hundred or two mUes from where he thinks it is. — A. I don't know anything about that. Mr. McMuBKAY. I think that we can save time by hearing from someone else on that point now. STATEMENT OF MB. J. HAMPTON WILLIS By the Chairman : Q. Do you hold any official position? — A. I am one of the mine trustees. Q. You may now proceed. — A. It is generally known down in the Chickasaw Nation at Tishomingo, where the Dawes Commission was first located, that there was a certain farm, located three or four miles from Tishomingo on the Washita River Lud well improved, and that the road leading out there was as well beaten as a road leading to a city the size of this. Numbers of Indians were taken out to tliis farm by the grafters to sell it and were told by the grafters that it belonged to them (the grafters), and that they could file upon it if they wanted it on the grafters' terms. The Indian would then go before the Com- mission and swear that he had been upon the land in question and filed upon it, but when he came to find out, he would find that he had filed upon land a hundred or a hundred and fifty miles from there, and it might be away back in the country and poor, rocky land. And I understand that there is now a similar farm near Ardmore. Q. What are the grafters' terms? — A. He generally takes a lease on the land. Q. If he takes a lease upon the land and eventually expects or hopes to get the land, why does he file the Indian on poor land? — A. I don't know about that; but I have heard where they have leased a surplus for as low as 15 a year. By Mr. Brandegee : Q. I understand you to say that this land agent tells the Indian that he himself owns the farm, this well-improved farm? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And sell him the improvements ? — A. Yes, sir. 910 riVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. I should think that if the grafter is to get a lease on the land he would want one of the best farms in the Territory? — A. Well, he gets the lease for little or nothing and can make money on it before the lease expires. They would be valuable for grazing purposes. STATEMENT OF MB. E. B. JOHNSON, RESUMED. By the Chairman: Q. What is your position as to the disposal of these lands? I understand you to say that it is exactly the same as sought for the disposal of the coal lands ? — A. We desire everything sold as soon as possible, so that the proceeds can be divided among the Choctaw and Chickasaw people. " Q. And you agree with the others in regard to the removal of restrictions? — A. I differ a good deal with some of the members of our Commission in regard to the removal of these restrictions. There may be hardships, perhaps, worked on some of the Indians by having the restrictions on, but they protect a good many who are not compe- tent to attend to their own affairs. Q. Of the full bloods? — ^A. Of both classes. It protects both classes, the intermixed and the full blood. There are competent men in both classes and incompetent men in both. My idea is that there should be some officer here on the ground to receive applications for removal of restrictions, and that he have authority to remove them if he thinks best. My idea, speaking just for myself, is that the restric- tions, just as it stands, is a pretty good thing I think possibly it might be modified, if we had the proper tribunal, so that it might be better than the present system; but I thinlc the Indian and the full blood should have some protection. By Senator Long : Q. The full blood can not sell at all now, and you think that the law should be modified in some way so that he can sell under proper super- vision? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And the mixed blood can now sell, if he has his restrictions removed by the Secretary of the Interior. — A. Yes, sir. But it is rather a complicated affair. By Senator Teller : Q. You think that there is a lot of red tape connected with it? — A. Yes, sir. It don't amount to much the way it is. We have a great deal of money that ought to be available, that will be derived from these coal lands and the surplus lands, and if the Indians had this they would not need to have their restrictions removed. As they stand now they are land poor and have to sell part of their lands to improve their homesteads; but if they had the money that is justly due them they would not care about the restrictions. By the Chairman : Q. But if the restrictions are not removed, the land will not be subject to taxation, will it? — A. I do not understand that the removal of restrictions carries with it the subject of taxation. My understand- ing is that the land is not subject to taxation until it passes into other hands. Q. What would be the effect on the new State if the most of this land should not be subject to taxation? — ^A, Of course it would make FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 91 X the taxes high on personal property, but if the Indians got their money they would have to pay taxes on that. Q. I think that it would be a pretty hard matter to reach the per- sonal property. Money usually objects to paying taxes on itself. — A. I do not thinlc that the Indian would object to taxes or care mich abo-.t'the removal of restrictions if he got his money. That would solve that problem. By Senator Clark, of Montana. Q. I understand that there is a tendency among the Indians toward concentration in certain places, so they can be together. — A. Yes, sir. They try to take their allotments together. Q. Do they generally go to the hilly or farming country? — A. They genera.lly try to get out on the prairies. Q. Then the best land in the Territory has been taken? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The delegates to the constitutional convention have been elected? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. What number of personal delegates have these nations among the delegates who were elected ? — A. They have no personal delegates. I do not laiow that they have any particular representatives. Q. Have any Indians at all been elected? — A. Yes, a few. A Voice: Six Indians have been elected. Q. Do you know of any Indians from this part of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations that have been elected to the constitutional con- vention? — A. No, sir. Q. Are any of those that were elected full bloods? — A. No, sir; a few mixed bloods, and some intermarried citizens. By Senator Long : Q. Then there were very few Indians or Republicans elected? — A. Yes, sir. I do not think the Indians cut much ice in the politics of this new State. STATEMENT OF HOLMES WILLIS, WILLIS, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. Where is your residence? — A. Willis, Ind. T. Q. What is your nationality? — A. One-sixteenth part Chickasaw Indian. Q. You may now proceed. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, you have listened with great interest to what has been said, and we thank you for the great interest you are taking in these matters, and the efPorts that you are making to solve these problems, and the efforts you are making to be absolutely fair. ^ The removal of restrictions is my subject. What we desire is that, if we are to become citizens of the new State, we want to come in on the same terms as the other or white citizens. I am myself an Indian, and we are friendly to the Indian and friendly to the interests of the Indian, but our friendship for the Indian does not detract in any way from the friendship we have for the white brother. We want legislation enacted by the Congress of the United States that will be liberal enough and broad enough to embrace and protect the entire 912 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. citizenhsip throughout the State. We want the Indian protected, but we want him protected in doing something. We want him encouraged to develop himself and his farm, and, gentlemen, that is one of the first things to teach an Indian. He should be taught to be a good farmer and to understand agriculture. Agriculture is the very foundation upon which rests our highest standard of American citizenship. Without agriculture we can have no railroads, no manufacturing enterprises, and no commerce, simply because there will be nothing for the railroads to haul, and no one to buy the out- put of the manufacturing enterprises. Without agriculture there can be no commercial intercourse, and without commercial intercourse there can be no social intercourse. And upon social intercourse rests the development of the human mind. Agriculture is the hope of the Indian Territory, and of the Indian. We want to see the Indian surrounded and living among good, thrifty farmers, so that he can benefit by their example. You can travel from the Atlantic to the Pacific and from the Lakes to the Gulf, and wherever yo« see good, warm barns, good livestock, and good shelter for that livestock, there you will find good citizens and there you will see the little red school-house. We want to make the Indian a good citizen and an educated citizen. We want him to have the example of his white brothers, so that he can learn from them to be a good farmer and a good citizen. For this reason I think that the removal of the restrictions upon the surplus lands of the Indian would be a pretty good thing. If he is permitted to sell half of his land to his white neighbor he will then have an example of thrift and good farming right at his elbow. And if he has good farmers and good and well-kept farms on each side of him, you may rest assured that he will be a better farmer and his farm will be better kept. Nothing teaches like a good example. The Indian's land is not doing him any good now, and he is often the prey of the grafter. Now, we want to fix this some way so that the grafter can not get his hands on this property, and to teach the Indian the value of his property. If the restrictions are removed, so that he can sell his surplus land and thus have money to improve his homestead, he will not have such a great demand or need for money, and will not be so apt to fall into the hands of grafters. Besides, he will have on either side of him good and thrifty white farmers, who will teach him the value of his land, so that when he goes to sell he will know what his land is worth and can get a good price for it. The land will then fall into the hands of good, honest settlers, and not to the grafters, and that is what we want. As it is now, where the Indian can not give a good title to his lands, he can not sell to honest farmers, but has to deal with grafters. Our council is on record in favor of the removal of restrictions upon the surplus lands. They passed a resolution asking Congress to remove the restrictions upon the surplus lands of adult citizens. These lands are lying idle and are not doing anybody any good. They are really depreciating in value. You can keep the title to the lands in the Indians, but you can not keep them from washing into the creeks. This land is lying there without proper care and is washing into the creeks. It has been depreciating in value and has depreciated 1 5 per cent in the last ten years, FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 913 By the Chairman : Q. It has been said that there are some Indians who are thinking of emigrating and who desire to be reheved of their allotments, so that they can go and buy land and live under the old system. — A. Yes, sir. I have talked with some who desire to go to Mexico where, they say, they have offered to give them land. By Senator Beandegee : Q. I understand you to say that you would keep the restrictions upon the homesteads of all? — A. Yes, sir. Keep them on the home- steads of all and remove them on the surpluses of all. Q. How long have you lived in this country ? — A. Forty-nine years. By the Chairman : Q. That is your age ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You were born in this country ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you a Chickasaw? — A. One-sixteenth Chickasaw. At 12 o'clock noon the Committee took a recess until 2 p. m., when it reassembled, afternoon session. The Chairman. I desire to make an announcement and have it go into the record. The necessities of the public service seem to demand some little change in our programme as to our future stay and movements here in the Territory. As you are all aware, doubt- less, the tentative program, published some time ago in the news- papers, provided that the committee devote three days to the con- sidjeration of affairs here in the city of McAlester, two or three days at Ardmore, two days at Tulsa, and two days at Bartlesville ; but the necessity seems to have arisen to shorten up the time and the work of the committee. Consequently it is the intention now to shorten the time here from three days to two, and to conclude the sitting here with the close of the business session this evening. Heretofore we have extended our night session to 10 or 10.30 o'clock, but if neces- sary this will be lengthened to-night, and we say to you now, if you should desire to be heard, and have matters of importance to present, the committee will sit, with its stenographer, as long as may be neces- sary, or until the train leaves for Ardmore in the morning. In saying this, we want to impress on you all, as we have endeavored to do here- tofore, that it is our desire to gain all the information possible in the limited time at our disposal, and we trust that as far as possible, with- out slighting the importance of the subject to which you wish to call attention, the presentation will be as brief as possible, taking into con- sideration the importance of the matters to which you wish to call attention. STATEMENT OF MB. D. C. McCURTAIN, SOUTH McALESTEB, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. Please state your name. — A. D. C. McCurtain. Q. Do you hold any official position?— A. I am the national dele- gate of the Choctaw Nation to Washington. Q. What is your nationality? — ^A. Choctaw Indian, mixed blood. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 59 914 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Q. Where do you live ?— A. Here in South McAlester. Q. Are you engaged in any business?— A. The law business. Q. You may proceed. Mr. McCuETAiN. I desire to state that I represent the Choctaw and Chickasaw commission and desire to present to you what I understand to be their position relative to the removal of restrictions upon the sale of Indian lands, and I may say that the committee here represents the great mass of the Choctaw and Chickasaw people, and reflects their view upon the question of the removal of restrictions upon surplus lands. ■* We believe that the restrictions upon the sale of the surplus lands of allottees should be removed without reference to the quantum of Indian blood. I believe that it will be found almost impossible tb take the quantum of Indian blood as a safe rule in this matter, because there are a number of people who are styled full bloods who are as competent to transact their business as are the mixed bloods. Senator Clark, of Montana. I understand there are a number who are on the full-blood roll who are not full bloods. ** Mr. McCuETAiN. That is true. I know of a number of cases of that kind. So I say that it would not be a safe rule to undertake to say that the quantum of India,n blood should determine a man's qualifications to transact his own business or dispose of his lands. We are in favor of the removal of the restrictions for the reason, not that we find any fault with the purpose of the law — the purpose and intention of the law to protect the Indian is well and good^but it has been found that the application of the law will not accomplish the purposes for which it was enacted. It is utterly impractical now. When the Atoka agreement was entered into between the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes and the Government of the United States, the tribal governments were continued for a period of eight years, extend- ing them to March 4, 1906, and when the restriction clause was incor- porated in that agreement, it was contemplated that the lands would all be allotted and that the restriction period would have elapsed by the time the tribal governments went out of existence and State gov- ernment was ushered in. While it is true that nearly all of the land has been allotted, still very little of it is alienable under that provi- sion. I think it is safe to say that the Atoka agreement, which restricted the right of the allottees to sell their lands, contemplated that by the time statehood was ushered in all of the surplus lands would be marketable. But that plan has failed of its purpose. The con- dition of the Indian people is largely responsible for the failure of that law. While it is true that a number of Indians are worth a great deal in their own right, and are able to improve their allotments out of their own means, a great many of them are in a state of actual, distress. Their allotments are unimproved. Where they had improve- ments they were given the preference in allotting on that land. But many of them have no improved land, and they did not, at the time of the allotment, have money saved up to make improvements, and the mere allotment to an Indian of surplus lands does not increase his financial ability. While if he was allowed to sell them, and turn them into money, it would increase it very much. So as it is now, the Indian is living on vast tracts of land, which belong to him, and yet he is, in many cases, in a state of abject poverty. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 915 Well, of course the Indian — I do not say this in derogation of the Indian at all, for I am an Indian myself — but it is true, that owing to the unsettled condition of the Indian, he has gone back; he is not as self-supporting as he was years ago. Now, here he is with an allotment of, say, 320 acres, unimproved, no money with whiclx to improve it; one-half of this land under the law is a homestead, the other half is a surplus allotment. Now, the Indian must have some means, or he can not improve even his homestead, and we believe that as a way of providing or raising means for the Indian to improve his homestead, he should be permitted to sell his surplus lands, and should be permitted to sell them without restriction, and why? If the law protected the Indian in the manner it was intended it should, I would not be here to-day protesting against it. But I know that these Choctaws, and I take it that it is true of the Chickasaws, are selling anyway. This law does not prevent them from selling their lands; it simply prevents them from giving a good title. They dispose of them anyway. Then the fact that they can not give a good title to their lands necessarily depreciates the value of the land in the market. Of course it may be said that these land sales of which I speak are void. That is true. As a matter of law they are void, but I think I know the Indian people well enough to say that where they have made a transaction, where they have sold their lands, even though they have sold them for much less than their actual value, I think I know enough about the Indian people to say that they will stand by those transactions, and that being true, it will matter very little to the Indian whether the sale is a good one or not. Of course, I presume that there are some who will question the validity of their own transactions, and take advantage of the law to avoid them, but the great mass of them, especially the full bloods, will stand by what- ever transactions they make. So the present law restricting the right of the Indian to sell his lands does not, as a matter of fact, prevent his selling it. It simply prevents his giving a good title. Now, if he could give a good title and the restrictions were removed, it stands to reason that their lands would command a better price in the market. That is reasonable and needs no argument to sustain that position. Not only that, but I believe that if the restrictions upon the surplus lands were removed, that it would invite and draw here a class of men who seek homes; men who would come in here with money and buy homes. I do not believe that all of the people of the Indian Territory are grafters. There are many people here with money who would pay the actual value of the land if they could get a good title, and who would then build homes. But these people who have this money with which they want to purchase a home do not want to hazard it upon land where the title is known to be defective and will not do it. Consequently, the only people who will buy these lands are the grafters. It is an offensive term to use, but they are here, and we have got to recognize that fact. This land is worth probably fifteen or twenty dol- lars per acre, says the purchaser, but you can not give me a good title, therefore I can not pay you the full value of the land. The Indian knows he can not give a good title, but needs the money just the same, and consequently closes the deal with the grafter, and the grafter gets the benefit of the land and not the Indian. Senator Long. Just what is a grafter ? 916 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. McCuRTAiN. A grafter is a man who deals in Indian lands and acquires possession of them, either by lease or purchase. He seldom, if ever, pays what the lands are worth, but takes all advantage of the Indians possible. Senator Long. Do they operate in violation of any law? Is there any way to reach them by criminal law? Mr. McCuRTAiN. They do hot necessarily violate any law. A man may go pretty close to the rocks and still be safe. If the law could get these fellows, I think there would be an exodus from this country. These men — these grafters — get hold of this land, and they expect, Senators, to have enough of this land to go before Congress or some other authorities and ask that their titles be cleared up. They vgll say : We have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars upon them and we have acquired hundreds of thousands of acres and the Indians have received the money, and so far as they are concerned they are willing to stand by the deal. All that stands in our way is a mere tech- nicality, and we ask you to clear up our titles; and they believe that will be done. Now, what is the result? It is this: When the real homeseeker comes along, he is forced to buy his land from the specu- lator, not from the Indian, and the grafter, not being in need of money, as is the Indian, is not going to be taken in by the show of a little cash; so the real homeseeker, the man we want here and the man who is the bone and sinew of the country, will be required to pay a much-increased price for these lands before they can get them. Thus it will be seen that this law, which was passed to protect the Indians, protects tlie very men it was intended to shoot at. It permits him, without intend- ing to do so, to filch the Indian and hold up the homeseeker in addi- tion. The grafter alone is the man benefitted by this condition. It has been suggested that some plan might be devised to protect the Indian and have the sale pass through the hands of some officer or tribunal, but, as Senator Teller suggests, since the Indian has become a citizen of the United States, that any restrictions imposed upon their right to sell their land now would be of doubtful validity. At the last Congress a restriction of twenty-five years was put upon the land of the mil blood, and I was then in the Senate Chamber and heard that question thoroughly discussed, and I think that at that time the Senator from Colorado took the position he takes now, that these restrictions were of doubtful validity. Of course, the restrictions imposed upon the lands before the Indians became citizens of the United States are good, but any restrictions that you might impose to-day might not be good, but it occurs to me that this ques- tion might be gotten around in this manner. Governor McCurtain, as I understand it this morning,* followed by Mr. Tucker, and pos- sibly others, stated that they thought some sort of a safeguard should be thrown around the Indian to protect him in getting the money, and they suggested a plan which was met with the suggestion from Senator Teller that possibly Congress did not have that right. That suggestion was that a committee be appointed, possibly one from each of the present recording districts, who should be bonded officers, appointed by the Federal Government, and any transaction or sale with an Indian should be of no force and effect until approved by this bonded officer, and, to further insure the Indian getting the price agreed upon, that the money should be paid through this supervising officer to the Indian. Of course, I realize that this is another restric- FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 917 tion. But I want to suggest to the committee, that if that sug- gestion appears to be of sufficient importance to warrant further • consideration, I want to suggest that possibly the restriction might be imposed in this way and its vahdity saved — that is, for the. tribes to make an agreement with the Government. I do not loiow whether it would be necessary for this to be referred back to the tribes or not for ratification by popular vote. If they should enter into an agreement affecting theu- members, and if this plan is approved by the tribe, there could be no question of the right of Congress to impose this restriction. I merely suggest this as a method by which Congress might get around this question of validity. The Chairman. Could any member or members of the tribe, or any tribal ratification, make legal a restriction upon the land of any iadividual member of the tribe if that individual should object to it? Mr. McCxjRTAiN. I take this to be true, that if the Choctaw legis- lature and the Chickasaw legislature, as still existing under authority of Congress, have the right to make laws and transact business, sub- ject to the approval of the President of the United States. These men act as the representatives of the people. Now, if they are together and in legislative session, and authorize the appointment of a commission to negotiate an agreement with a like commission appointed by the Government of the United States, and if the acts of the Indian councUs go to Washington and receive the approval of the President of the United States, I believe that the Choctaw people would stand committed to that action of their representatives in creating that comm.ission and that the act creating that commission would be binding upon the Chickasaws. By Senator Brandegee : Don't you think that if any individual citizen should contest such an act that it would be declared void ? — A. On what grounds ? Q. That the nations can not bind a citizen of the United States by placing restrictions upon his property. — A. I don't know about that. Q. Could the legislature of any State bind its citizens by such an act as that? — A. Well, when it comes to a question of private prop- erty there is no taking of private property. I do not know whether that would invalidate the statute or not; I can not tell what would be the outcome of a controversy of that kind. But if it should be deemed that that plan is not advisable then I think the best plan would be to simply take the restrictions off the surplus lands and permit the Indian to sell, but would not consent to the restrictions being taken from the homesteads. By Senator Long : Q. I understand there is considerable difference in the size and value of allotments and homesteads in the different nations. How many acres on the average make a homestead ? — A. The average would be exactly 160 acres. They are permitted to take land equaling in value 320 acres of the average land of the Choctaws and Chickasaws. That makes the average homestead 160 acres. _ Q. Now, just what does the term homestead "mean. There is con- siderable difference in its use throughout the United States. What is considered a homestead with reference to Indian lands does not 918 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. necessarily mean the land on which the family actually resides. The homestead is the name of a certain portion of an allotment, whether it be occupied by the owner as a residence or not. He can reside upon the 160 acres that is not the homestead. — A. Yes, sir. He does not have to reside upon it. , Q. Then the term " homestead," as applied here, does not mean " domicile?" — A. No, sir. By Sentator Teller : Q. A homestead is simply a certain portion designated as a home- stead? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. I think there is considerable misunderstanding as to the pro- visions of the present law, and it is plain by some of the articles that have been written that the present plan is not fully understood. What is the system now in vogue? — A. One-fourth can be sold in one year and one-fourth in five years. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. That does not apply to homesteads? — ^A. No, sir. They are inalienable for tweny-one years. No.w, the Indian will have ample land in his homestead to support himself, and if you require him to keep all of this land without permitting him to sell it legally (I do not insist that the law prevents him from selling it) , if you require him to keep all of this land, he is land. poor. By Senator Bkandegee : Q. What is the average allotment ? — A. Three hundred and twenty acres. Q. Then a family of five would have about 1,600 acres? — ^A. Yes, sir. Now, as stated in the beginning, when the time was set for the expiration of the restrictions it was expected that this land would be on the market by the time statehood came on. It was expected at that time that statehood would follow the tribal government, but we find ourselves up against statehood now and no land to go on the market. I do not believe that I have anything further to say. By Senator Teller: Q. Why was the treaty not carried out, what was the trouble? — A. I don't know. The agreement says that the coal lands should be sold, and the officials of the Governcment did not carry it out. Q. Why didn't they?— A. I don't know. Q. Was the fault with your people or the Government? — A. With the Government. Then we had a deal of trouble over the rolls. The Government undertook to make up the rolls, and it has cost the nations something like $1,000,000 to have it do it. The act of June 10, 1896, invested the Dawes Commission with the right to admit to citizenship. By Senator Teller: Q. To determine who were citizens ? — A. Yes, sir. And gave them a limited time to consider these applications. Of course the applica- tions came in cartloads, and as a result the Commission had an immense amount of business to handle in a limited time. The Com- mission denied most of them. Then the cases were appealed to the United States courts in the Indian Territory. And the United States FIVE CIVILIZED TEIB13S. 919 courts found themselves in pretty much the same fix as the Commis- sion had been. Their dockets were full already, and they really had no time toattend to this citizenship business properly, and as a result of these trials admitted nearly all of these people. Well, various rea- sons have been assigned for this. One is that the nations were not in court properly prepared to resist these cases. I do not know as to that. The nations had counsel at the time. I suppose they did the best they could under the circumstances and in the limited time at their disposal. By Senator Long: Q. It was largely a question of fact for the court to decide; it was a question as to what their blood was ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They took testimony? — A. Yes, sir. And admitted nearly all of these people. This created so much dissatisfaction among our peo- ple that Congress finally created what is known as the citizenship court. This court had nothing else to do but examine these cases. They did examine them and take a great deal of testimony. I was in that court as counsel for the nations, and I can say that the court was very liberal in receiving testimony, no man being denied the privilege of submitting what he wanted to. By the Chairman : Q. That court reviewed the same cases ? — A. Yes, sir. And after hearing a great deal more testimony and devoting a great deal more time to them than the district courts they denied most of these appli- cants. That citizenship matter is what has delayed the allotment of the lands. That is where the delay came in. By Senator Teller : Q. The Government undertook to review your rolls ? — A. Yes, sir. I think that we could have made up our own rolls, and made them up within ten months, and for a great deal less money. I know we had experience in making up the rolls once. The tribal authorities made up the rolls and the Treasury paid out our money, and I do not think that it required over four or five months to make up the rolls, and they were satisfactory rolls, and are now considered as one of the authentic rolls in the possession of the Commission. I do not know that I have anything further to say. The present system of restric- tions upon the sale of lands simply defeats the purpose of the law and works to the profit of the very people it was intended to shoot at. The Indian sells his land, whether he gives a good title or not. He needs money, and has to sell it for what he can get. By the Chairman : Q. Assuming that there is a grafter willing to take advantage of the Indian, and assuming that the Indian enters into the bargam in good faith, the restrictions will protect the Indian, and all transac- tions made with the Indian before his restrictions are removed are void. There is absolutely no risk to the Indian in entering into these transactions. — A. No legal risk, but I believe that the Indian will live up to them, even though he enters into them on unfavorable terms, because of being land poor and having to have the money. Q. You say the Indian is land poor ? — A. Yes, sir. 920 FIVE CIVILIZED TfilBES. Q. Then it makes no difference whether the Indian has 400 or 4,000 acres, if he has no money to improve it and can not sell any of it, he will be poor? — A. Yes, sir; it makes no difference. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. I would, like to ask you as to the frequentness of these trans- actions of the grafter with the Indians. Are they an everyday occurrence, and are the mass of the people doing it? — A. Yes, sir; there is quite a volume of that business. I have been told by a man in the Government service that there is quite a good deal of it in the Chickasaw Nation; and of course it is being done in other parts of the country. In the southeastern part of the Choctaw Nation, where there is pine timber, that pine has been appraised separately from the land, and there has been a great deal of grafting done upon that pine. I think that this law should be repealed, and the citizens, regardless of the quantum of Indian blood, be permitted to sell their land other than homesteads. By the Chairman : Q. Now, if the restrictions are taken off, have not the full bloods the same right to sell as the others? Is there any greater proportion among them that would make an improper use of their money than there is among ordinary white people ? — A. I think not. Q. They all understand about the restrictions upon their lands, don't they? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Brandegee : Q. If the restrictions are removed, can not the tribes take pains to circulate in some way among the mass of the people information as to the values of the land, so as to prevent them being imposed upon by smart business men ? — ^A. I think that as soon as it became generally known that the Indian could give a good title that the Indian would know that his land would command better prices. By the Chairman : Q. In other words, the competition would inform the Indian as to the exact value of the land ? — ^A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. If Congress should pass an act removing the restrictions, it should be made operative at some future date, and not immediately upon the passage of the act ? — ^A. Yes, sir. And I would suggest that the plan that is found in the Atoka agreement, and which I think has been incorporated in all subsequent legislation, that upon the removal of restrictions the land shall not be liable for any indebtedness con- tracted prior to that time, because the Indians are given all kinds of papers to sign, which sometimes turn out to be obligations. By means of this some man might claim the entire surplus of an Indian. Of course, the present law now provides for this. By Senator Brandegee : Q. What use would the full-blood make of the proceeds of the sale of his lands ? Would he invest a part of it in the improvement of his homestead ? Would not the danger come when they came to invest the balance of the money? — A. Yes, sir; that is a difficulty that will arise under any phase of the case, and one that can not be reached. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ()21 We can protect a man so far, but it is beyond law to protect him against hi^ own folly. By Senator Clark, of Montana : Q. About what proportion of these people are trading with the speculator? — A. I could not say. Q. Is it a matter of general occurrence, or does it occur now and then? — A. It is a matter of general occurrence. By the Chairman: Q. You_ spoke of a Government official telling you about these matters; is he here? — A. He was here this morning. Q. What ishis name?— A. S. A. Mills. Q. Is here now? — A Voice. He is here. By Senator Clark, of Montana: Q. Are you a son of Governor McCurtain? — A. "i'es, sir. Q. What part Indian are you? — A. I am very near one-half. Q. Where did you get your education? — A. Roanoke school, Salem, Va.; and at Missouri Law school. Q. When were you admitted to the bar? — A. 190.3. Q. Did you ever attend the tribal schools? — A. No, sir; I did mit, except the neighborhood schools. STATEMENT OF T. P. HOWELL, OF DAVIS, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. What is your nationality ? — A. Chickasaw Indian. Q. What proportion of Indian blood have you? — A. One-eighth. Q. Where do you live? — A. Davis, Ind. T. Q. You may proceed with anything that you have to offer. — A. I believe it to be very important that the restrictions be removed from the simple fact that the Indians are now prepared to improve their homesteads, and I think that just about as large a per cent of our people are able to take care of themselves as you will find among the white people. In some instances, and in some of them it worlds a hardship, the Choctaw Indians have their homesteads in the Chick- asaw Nation and live in the Choctaw country. In the last Five Tribes bill it was provided that the homesteads can not be leased at all, and the result is that they can realize nothing from their homesteads at all. They can not lease the land of their homesteads. By Senator Teller : Q. Was that provision put in the last act? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And it has not been m any before? — A. No, sir. Q. The last act provided that the homestead might be leased for less than one year. — A. I think it only provides for leasing the home- stead where the allottee is physically unable to work the land. They had already made some leases prior to the act and of course those stand. By Senator Long: Q. My impression was that they could lease homesteads for less, than one year. Is not that right ? — A. No, sir. Mr. McMuRRAY. That is right. The homestead can not be leased unless the allottee is physically unable to work it. 922 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Howell. I have present knowledge of parties just in that fix. They have land from which they can get no rent. , By the Chairman: Q. They are not living on their homesteads? — A. No, sir; they have taken their land in small quantities. They live in one place and their homestead is in another. By Senator Brandegee : Q. It has been stated here, or somewhere, that there are a great many old full bloods as to whom the privilege of selling a part of tbeir surplus would aid in making them comfortable the rest of their lives. Do you know of any cases of that kind? — A. Yes, sif; some isolated cases. Q. You think that is the majority opinion among your people, do you? — A. 1 think that it is the sentiment of the mass of the peo- ple that the restrictions ought to be removed. I believe it is best for all of the people, from the simple fact that they would then have the means to improve their homesteads, and it would get actual settlers to come in here and buy this land and settle in our country, and that would be a benefit to the Indian — having the benefit of his neighbor's example. Q. Which nation do you live in now? — A. Chickasaw. STATEMENT OF GEORGE W. SCOTT, OF KINTA, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. What is your name ? — A. George W. Scott. Q. Where do you live?— A. Kinta, Ind. T. Q. What position do you hold? — A. National treasurer. By Senator Brandegee : Q. How long have you been treasurer? — A. Since October, 1899 — four terms I believe that is. Since about February 1 of this year the Secretary of the Interior has held up our funds and we nave not had any pay at all. Up to that time we owed no debts at all excepting a few scattered warrants that had been misplaced or else the people had not taken the time to send them in for collection. Since that time, with very few exceptions, the officers of the Choctaw Nation have received no money upon their warrants issued for services as such officers. This fund was held up, I submit, without any authority of law, by the Secretary of the Interior. By the Chairman : Q. Is it still being held up ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What reason has been given for holding them up ? — A. The law continuing the tribal government provides that all bills passed by the Indian councils must receive the approval of the President of the United States, except the regular and necessary expenses of the nation and its officers. These bills were not submitted to the President, and therefore he refused to pay them. We did not think that it was neces- sary to submit these bills to the President. Q. What other cases have been held up ? — A. One was appropriat- ing money to Hill & Brizalera as attorneys for the nation in the Mis- souri, Kansas and Texas Railway suit. Another was a bill appro- priating money to the citizenship commissioner appointed by the Five civilized tmbes. 923 nation. Another appropriated _ money to Mansfield, MoMurray & Cornisli for general services in citizenship matters. Another appropri- ating money to McCurtain and Hill, attorneys for the nation m pro- bate matters. Q. Were you advised by counsel that it was not necessary to submit for the approval of the President?— A. In performing duty and acting in my discretion in the matter, I had been issuing warrants under the bills. Q. Without the approval of the President ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your claim or reason why these bills were not submitted to the President? — A. I am not familiar with that part of the tribal government. I suppose, however, that they thought these did not come under the head of having to be submitted to the President. The act says that the acts and resolutions of the Choctaw and Chickasaw coimcils, except acts appropriating money for the actual and necessary expenses of the government, must be approved by the President. By Senator Long : Q. The question here is whether they are regular and necessary or not? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Why were those that were for the regular and necessary expenses of the nation held up by the Secretary ? — A. Why, since then the Assistant Attorney-General for the Interior Department has rendered a decision that these acts that I have mentioned were not for regular and neces- sary expense, and therefore required the approval of the President. Q. Now, I am speaking of your other expenses — the payment of the salary of your coal supervisors and your ordinary officers. Were they also held up ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They were appropriated in the same bills? — A. No, sir. Q. In separate bills ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Has there ever been any contention that this class of appropria- tion bills should receive the approval of the President ? — A. No, sir. I asked why these bills were not being paid and they showed a letter from the Secretary of the Interior to the Treasury Department simply requesting that all funds be held up for the reason that large sums of money were being paid out under these bills which had not been approved by the President. Q. Then I understand that the Secretary of the Interior refused to authorize the payment of legitimate expenses because he was informed that illegitimate expenses ill another line had been incurred ? — A. Yes, sir. There are a number of checks outstanding. I issued these checks about the 1st of February in payment of a number of warrants before I knew that my checks were being protested by the subtreasury at St. Louis. Q. What are these checks for?— A. Nearly all for the national officers of the Choctaw Nation ; and election expenses. By Senator Teller : Q. For salaries? — A. .Yes, sir; election expenses and salaries of ofiicials. By the Chairman: Q. And the only reason is because the council cf the Choctaw Na- tion appropriated money in another direction by other hills that were 924 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, required to receive the signature of the President and which were not submitted? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Brandegee: Q. You say that it was about the 1st of February, 1906. Was that before the passage of the bill at last session ?^A. They were made up before the passage of the bill under which he now claims authority to take charge of things. By the Chairman: Q. Do you know what the total amoimts of these warrants are? — A. I have not the figures. By Senator Brandegee: Q. Do you levy any taxes in the Choctaw Nation? — A. The Indian government never taxed its citizens anything, excepting royalty on timber and grass. Q. How did they raise revenue to run the government ? — A. Occu- pation tax on noncitizens — that is, American citizens — royalty on merchandise, farmer's permit tax, and part of the expenses or the government were paid by moneys paid to the Government of the United States, the coal-trustee funds, and such like. Q. Are there two branches to your council? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What are their names? — A. Plouse of representatives and senate ? Q. How many members in each? — A. Twelve in the senate and 20 in the house of representatives. Q. Are they elected for the same length of time in each branch? — A. No, sir. The members of the house are elected for one year and the senators for two years. The senators are elected at the general election when the principal chief and county officers are elected. Of course representatives are elected then, too. Then the representa- tives are elected again the next year, along with the Governor's cabinet. Q. Do all of the senators go out of office at the same time? — A. Their terms expire at the same time. Q. How long does the council stay in session ? — A. Generally about thirty days. Q. How often does it hold sessions? — A. One per year. Q. Can they have an extraordinary or called session ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When do the sessions begin? — A. The first Monday in October of each year. Q. What prevents them from holding longer than thirty days ? — A. Nothing prevented them from holding longer than thirty days until the passage of the act of April 26. That provides that they can not hold more than thirty days in any. one year. Before that they could hold as long as the occasion required. Q. What are the powers of the governor's cabinet? Are they jus., advisory? — A. They are not appointed by the governor. There are laws under which they carry out their duties. But the governor can remove them from office, and sometimes that forces them to do as he wants them to do. Q. Has the governor the veto power? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Can the council pass an act over his head ? - A. Yes, sir. Q. By what vote? — A. Two-thirds majority. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 925 Q. In each branch?— A. Yes, sir. Outside of the fact that the officers are pretty badly in need of their money, I beheve that I have said all that is necessary. I have not the data and figures here, but up to the time that these checks were held up there was no indebted- ness of any consequence, unless some warrants had been lost or not turned in. By Senator Long : Q. Whatis the salary of the governor? — A. Two thousand dollars a year. Q. What is your salary? — A. Six hundred dollars a year. Q. Has the- governor's salary been paid? — A. I don't know. Q. Has your salary been paid? — A. It has been paid up until July 1. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Are there any books published in the Choctaw language? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What besides the Bible and religious books ? — A. Law books. Q. Are they still being published ? — A. I have not seen one in recent years; used to have a great many books. Q. Are there any newspapers printed in that language ? — A. Nearly all of the papers print some articles in the Choctaw language — all that can get a Choctaw typesetter. Q. What sort of trades or arts are there among your people? — A. Just such sorts of trades and arts as they can get from the States sur- rounding them and from the schools. Q. Are there any schools where they teach carpentering and blacksmithmg? — A. I don't know what they have in the schools now. Q. Are there any carpenters among the full-blood Indians? — A. Yes, sir. They are said to be natural mechanics. Q. In addition to their natural qualifications, do they ever learn it and use it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do they apprentice themselves out ? — A. No, sir. Q. Are there any blacksmiths among them ? — A. I have known of some. Q. Do they shoe their own horses? — A. No, sir. Q. Do native blacksmiths shoe their horses, or white men? — A. They generally have their horses shod by smiths in that profession. Q. They are generally white men ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What does a fall-blood Indian do for himself besides agricul- ture? — ^A. They perform religious duties, attend conferences, and the like. Q. They don't do that for a livmg, do they?— A. No, sir. Well, partly, too. They generally have plenty to eat around those places. [Prolonged laughter.] And you generally see about as many white men around there as Indians. Q. You make a point of being there yourself ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do the Indians keep stores, or are there mostly white traders ? — A. There are more white traders than Indian traders, although they are pretty well mixed. Q. If they have allotments of 320 acres, they must be pretty well scattered, the Indians and their families. Arc there any places where they are settled ia communities ? — A. I understand they are in some 926 rivE CIVILIZED tribes. communities. 1 understand there has been a great deal said about the manner in which the full bloods were allotted in the Chickasaw Nation. I understand there has been a good deal of checkerboard allotments, which are almost valueless, but it is so the parties can get together. Q. They lilce to get together? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Just what settlements are there of this kind that you know of ? — A. Well, Red River County, I think, is that largely. Q. What particular names have these settlements ? — A. Well, there is "Tole-tupelo." Q. How many people are there there? — ^A. Well, something like 250 families in that county, and you could count about five to the family. Q. I meant villages. — ^A. They do not remain, in many instances, ia villages. They want to get at least two miles away from each other. Q. Do they keep up a system of roads ? — A. A few years back they did. The Indian county officials would send notices to all parties to come and help work the roads, and they would have to work them or pay somebody to work them for them. They did that until they tried to force the white people to work and they refused, and since then nothing has been done. Q. How do they travel, in wagons largely? — ^A. Wagons, buggies, carriages, horseback, and other ways. Q. Do they raise any garden or farm products to sell? Do they raise more than they use? — A. Not generally. If they want some- thing and have no money to get it they will sell part of their products. Q. Do they generally try to raise something more than they use, so that they can sell it and have money with which to improve their farms ? — A. Not to any great extent. In some cases they do that. Q. What is your idea of the reason that they don't do it? — A. Well, they are not energetic in business lines. They are not constituted that way. They are not energetic, they are indolent and backward, you might term it. They don't seem to be endowed with the energy to get up and do these things. Q. How much Indian blood have you ? — A. I think I registered at the commision as being three-eighths Indian, although it is very hard to tell. My ancestors on the Indian side of the house run back until the time the French occupied Louisiana. The Mcintosh and Fol- soms were the French people, and it is hard to tell just ivhat amount of Indian blood I have. STATEMENT OF MARTIN V. CHEATLE, OP TISHOMINGO, IND. T. By the Chairman: Q. Where is your residence? — A. Tishomingo, near Tishomingo. Q. What is your business ? — A. Farmer and stock raiser. Q. Do you hold any official position? — A. I am on this committee. Q. Are you a member of the council ? — A. Yes, sir; senator. Q. You may proceed: Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the Committee: I am to talk about the schools. Our committee, both Choctaws and Chicka- saws, have had a meeting together, and we find that since the Govern- ment has assumed entire control of our schools they don't amount to much, and the expense is still going on. We thought it would be best to stop the money and save that expense. We thought it would be FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 927 best to just close up the schools until the new State schools opened. It would only be a short while, and we did not see any use of the money going out and the children not going to school. By the Chairman: Q. Why don't they attend school? — ^A. One reason, and I take it to be the great reason, is that the people rather rebel at the Govern- ment taking the schools away from us. We had been running the schools successfully for a great many years, and had spent a great deal of money and graduated our children every year. We had a high curriculum and turned out finished pupils every year. But on account of the expense the Government thought it was too much, and undertook to take the schools away, and now under the new system the people won't send their children. The schools are not running, but the expense §oes on just the same. We discussed the matter last night and decided that the best thing to do was to ask that the Bchools be closed up, as they had proven to be a failure, and wait until the school system of the new State came in. Q. The matter seems to rest with yourselves. The schools are pro- vided and you refuse to send your children to them. — ^A. Yes, I know it is a bad condition. Q. Is the money that is paid for the support of the Indian schools Indian money? — A. Yes, sir; it is Indian money and the Government of the United States pays it out. We have nothing to say about that or about running the schools; the Government does that for us. The people rebel against this and are determined not to send their children to school. We don't know how our money is spent. Q. You could find that out by applying to the Secretary, couldn't you? — A. I don't know whether we could or not. I am sorry that things are in this condition. Until recently things have been very friendly, and while it should not be so, there seems to be friction between the Department and the officers all along the line, and as it is clear that the schools are going to be a failure, we thought it best to ask you to close them up and save that expense. By Senator Brandegee : Q. Are the teachers competent teachers? — A. I suppose they are. Q. Are they Indian people or white ? — A. Wliite. Q. Men and women? — -A. Yes, sir. Q. What proportion of the school children do not attend school now? — A. Not one-half of them attend school. By the Chairman : Q. For the reasons that you mention? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there any schools to which the children can be sent? — A. Yes, sir; there are plenty of schools for the white children. Q. Where are they? — A. In the towns. Q. The Indians in the country can not send their children into town every day, can they? — A. No, sir; they can send them to town and board them there. Q. That is expensive; they can not all do that, can they? — A. No, sir. By Senator Brandegee : Q. What would make these conditions better?— A. Some regula- tion of the Department of the Interior that would bring about a more friendly cooperation between the Government and the tribe. 928 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. I want to get something definite. Is it that the Department supervises the sdiools and you want to do it yourselves? — A. Yes, sir; there has been a repugnance to the schools ever since the Depart- ment took hold of the work. Q. On the part of the parents or the children? — ^A. On the part of the parents and the children. Q. Do they object to going to school with white children? — A. No; they have been doing that for years. Under our management we had them going to school with the white children for years; we think that it is to our interest to have them to go to school with the white children and we want the stimulating influence of the white children, and of course our children are glad of an opportunity to associate with the white children. Q. Is there any white blood in you ? — A. Very little. My mother was a Choctaw and my father a Choctaw. I have some white blood, but very little. Mr. J. F. McMuERAY. I might explain that many of the people take their children out of the Indian schools and send them to the white schools. Mr. Cheatle. We take this view of these things, that in a year or two there will be a settlement and an adjustment anyhow, and if our children are not going to school, there is no use to keep up the schools, and we thought it best to close them and stop that expense. This would make the neighborhood schools a good deal stronger, and it is better for our children to be mixed with those children. Q. Are the neighborhood schools right there in the same com- munity or communities? — A. No, sir; I do not know that we have any. Q. Those schools of the Department right there in your neighbor- hood — are they for citizens and noncitizens? — A. No, sir; citizens. Q. White people do not attend them? — A. No, sir. In addition to the schools, we have five academies. One is an orphans' school, two for males and two for females. Then we have twenty schools through- out the country in difi'erent parts where a good many Indians live, known as neighborhood schools Q. About how many scholars attend each school? — A. About thirty-five. Q. Have all of those schools broken up ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Teller : Q. What broke them up? — A. Just as I have said, these conditions that exist. Q. Are the academies closed up, too? — A. Yes, sir. The Govern- ment is attempting to carry them on, but they have never been opened yet. Q. When should they have opened? — A. The first Monday in September. They were not ready at that time. This is the first year of the Government's experience in handling these schools. Of course they have a great deal of preparatory work to do in getting ready. Q. What is the nature of that work ? — A. They are remodeling all of the buildings, and are putting in new heating apparatus. Q. Did the federal officers inspect the buildings and say it was necessary? — A. I suppose so. It will be considerable expense on th^ Indians. We will be the ones that will* have to pay that. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 929 Q. When are they going to open these schools? — A. I don't know. Q. Who is the superintendent of these schools? — A. Mr. Benedict. Q. Is he here? — A. He was here. He is the supervisor. He can probably give you all the information about it. By Senator Brandagee : Q. When the Indians managed the schools did they furnish better facilities than the Government is furnishing? — A. I don't think so. Q. Did they have better teachers? — A. I think they are pretty much the same. Q. Then it is not so much the teachers, as you regard the intrusion of the Department in what you consider your private affairs? — A. I give that as the principal reason why our people will not attend these schools. Q. Are the teachers there ? — A. Yes, sir. The teachers are there, but nobody goes. We are pretty sure that nobody is going to attend the schools and that they are going to be a failure. We think there is going to be a settlement in a short time, and until then our schools might as well be closed up and that money saved. In that settlement we have a claim against the Government. It is a claim involving considerable history, and I should like to call you gentlemen's attention to it. The claiih was in the Supreme Court of the United States and they rather said that the claim was due us, but the case went off on the ground that we ought to go to Congress. This case is known as the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations v'. The United States, Wachita and affiliated bands of Indians, and embraces the country lying between the 98° and 100° west longitude, and from the Canadian to the Red rivers. It is occupied by the Kiowa, Com- manche and other Indians. Q. Have they the coixntry now? — A. Now, no, sir. It has been opened to settlement, or will be. This claim was first filed in the Court of Claims and they gave us a favorable decision, and we had every confidence in our claim and felt sure that the Governnient would pay it. It was carried to the Supreme Court of the United States and they rather took the stand that if we had any rights that we ought to go to Congress. By the Chairman: Q. What is the nature of the claini?— A. We did not need the land and ceded it to the United States in 1855. Q. What is the amount of the claim in money? — A. There is about 7,000,000 acres of land and we ceded it to the United States for a certain purpose. We had been harassed by those western Indians making inroads upon our people, killing our people, burning our houses, and driving off our stock. The Government had some friendly Indians that they wanted to locate, and we ceded them this land for the purpose of getting these friendly Indians between us and our enemies. That was the express purpose of the treaty, to get our friends between us and our enemies. Q. Was that a lease or a cession ?^A. A cession. It was to be held in trust and used for that purpose. It is now being used for another purpose, and we are entitled to pay for it. The Government has opened it for settlement and has sold the land for a good deal of money, and we should be paid for it. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 60 930 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Q. Have you ever been paid anything for it ? — A. Well, the Indians have not. The United States Treasury holds the receipt of the national treasurer for $55,000. Q. What became of the 155,000?— A. We don't know. In fact, the treasurer of the nation who gave the receipt was dead before we discovered that he had drawn the money. By Senator Beandegee : Q. What are you asking us to do about it? — A. Just to present the matter. Of course this claim has been reviewed before Congress. During Mr. Cleveland's administration the claim was recognized as to part of the land, that occupied by the Arapaho and Cheyenqe Indians, and the money was appropriated by Congress. Q. How much? — A. Three hundred and ninety thousand dollars. Q. What was done with the money? — A. It was distributed per capita among the people. The balance of the land is in Oklahoma and has been sold by the Government for a big sum of money to farmers. There is from five to seven mdlion acres, and we have not been paid for it. Q. You want pay for whatever equities you have in the land? — A. Yes, sir; we want a reasonable pay for the land. Q. What is that land worth now? — A. I don't know. It was our purpose to present this matter to you at this time, and I have no doubt it will be presented to Congress this winter. I am surprised that you Senators don't know more about these thmgs. Senator Long. Well, Senators are not supposed to know every- thing, you know. Mr. Cheatle. This matter has been before Congress; but it may be you are new Senators. Mr. McMxjBRAT. In connection with this school question it is provided in the treaty that certain tracts of land used for the Jones and Bluefield academies and the different academies through- out both nations and certain other tracts of land should be disposed of. These lands are very desirable, and as they are going out of business they desire that these lands be sold with all their other belongings. Senator Teller. What value would these lands have except to the State? No private parties would buy them, would they? Mr. McMuRRAY. I should think that they would be of consider- able more value to the State than to any private party. Senator Teller. Are they very large tracts? Mr. MoMuERAY. One hundred and sixty acres. Senator Teller. Have they ever been appraised? Mr. McMuEEAY. No, sir; I do not think that they have ever been appraised. Senator Teller. It ought to go to the State for school purposes. Mr. McMuRRAY. I may say that in discussing the matter with Governor McCurtain some time ago he stated that he thought that was the best place for them to go and indicated that he thought the Indians should be liberal with the new State. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 931 STATEMENT OF ALBERT FOLSOM, OF MILTON, IND. T. By the Chairman : Q. Where is your residence? — A. Milton, Ind. T. Q. You may proceed.— A. Over in our part of the country we have a great deal of segregated coal land that is good farming land, and many of us had improved places there, where we had lived^ some of us, for twenty or thirty years. We love our hearthstones^ and many of us are unable to improve others. Do you Senators know — maybe some of you do know what it means to go into a new country, clear a farm, spend months stacking lumber on the place you have selected for a house, and see it rise by the sweat of your brow and to finally move your family into it, and then have the segregation come and sweep your home away. By Senator Long : _ Q. Are you seeking to have your home cut out of the segrega- tion? — A. No, sir; all we are asking is that we be paid for our improve- ments and allowed to go and file on other land and there build new homes. Q. Have not these improvements been appraised under the pro- vision of the supplemental agreement? — A. Maybe it was. I have never found out what it was, let alone receive any part of our improve- ments. Q. Then you have no complaint to offer, if the pay is satisfac- tory? — A. l^ot if they pay us. All we want is a settlement. By Senator Teller: Q. Have you ever written to the Secretary about it? — A. No, sir. Q. You have taken an allotment elsewhere? — A. Yes, sir; and in taking this allotment it was expensive to me. I had to go and pick it out. Many are unable to travel around and pick out other land and have to have some grafter show them the land with the under- standing that they will lease it to him for several years. Q. Do you want a preference right to purchase this land when the land is sold? — A. No, sir. Q. You just want pay for the improvements on them? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How much Indian are you? — A. I forget whether I gave it in to the Commission as an eighth or a fourth; it is hard to tell just how much I am. Q. Was your father white? — A. No, sir; my parents were both part Indian. Q. How much land have you improved? — A. Between 150 and 200 acres; been eighteen years doing it; the whole family has been working on it, wife and all. Q. Do you hire any additional help to work that tract ? — ^A. I can not do much farming; it takes all my time to keep up the improve- ments for the tenants. Q. How many tenants have you? — A. Four. Mr. McMuRRAY. I want to file with the committee a price list of coal. It is the price list of the McAlester Fuel Company, dated Sep- tember 1, 1906. I want to suggest that fancy McAlester lump is nowselling for $4 per ton instead of $3.75, and other grades in pro- portion. 932 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The price list is as follows: The McAlester Fuel Company, South McAlester, Ind. T., September 1, 1906, To the trade : We quote you the following prices per ton of 2,000 pounds on coals handled by us, subject to conditions of sale given above: m'alester. Washed coal. No. 1, fancy stove coal ?3. 25 No. 2, choice nut 2.50 No. 3, washed chestnut 2.00 Washed slack 1. 50i All entirely free from slate and all foreign substance. Only pure, clean coal. We urge our customers to order a trial car of each of the three sizes. m'alester. • The genuine and original deep shaft — Mines on Missouri, Kansas and Texas and Rock Island railways. F. O. B. mines. Domestic lump (2-incli screens) $3. 50 Fancy lump (4-inch screens) 3. 75 Domestic egg (2-inch screens) 3. 50 McAlester mine run 2. 50 Screened nut 2.35 Pea 1. 85 Pea slack 1. 25 SMITHING COAL. Write for delivered prices on Big Vein Piedmont, Greorges Creek Blossburg, New Etna Tennessee. WILBDRTON HARTSHORNE. High-grade hard bituminous coal — Mines on Rock Island and Missouri, Kansas and Texas railways. F. O. B. mines. Domestic lump (2-inch screens) ?3. 25 Fancy lump (5-inch screens) 3. 50 Domestic egg (2-inch screens) 3. 25 Mine run 2. 10 Nut 2. 10 Pea 1. 85 Pe% slack 1. 10 beknice, quita. Arkansas anthracite. Lump, grate, egg, stove. No'. 4, chestnut, pea. Write for October prices. Septem- ber output sold. Write for delivered prices. SPADRA. Arkansas anthracite. September shipment, F. 0. B. mines. Lump • $3. 40 Grate 3. 75 Egg 3.85 No. 4 3.85 Chestnut 3. 85 Pea 2. 25 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 933 ARKANSAS SMOKELESS COAL. High-grade smokeless coal — Mines at Cameron, Mammoth Vein, Greenwood, Patterson, Red Rock, Montreal, Hartford, Panama, Coaldalc shaker screened. Domestic lump $2.50 Mammoth lump 2. 75 Domestic egg 2. 50 Mine run 1.75 Mill coal (egg, nut, and slack) 1. 60 Coarse slack 1. 10 High-grade domestic and steam coal. PENNSYLVANIA ANTHRACITE. Producer's list, F. O. B. Chicago. Chestnut $6. 50 Stove 6.50 Egg 6.50 Grate 6. 25 Exclusive sales agents for Sans Bois foundry coke, McAlester smelting coke, domestic coke. Write for delivered prices. Note. — The time when the coal dealer and the coal consumer should make sure of their winter's supply of fuel is now at hand . ■ It is only a question of a few days when, on account of the movement of the large crops and the heavy consumption of fuel by the railroads, that shipments will be delayed on account of the heavy demand, shortage of cars, and slow delivery. In view of these conditions, we would urge that you not only fill your own bins at once, but that you urge your customers to permit you to fill theirs direct from the car. We quote you the above prices on coals handled by us, and in addition wish to state that we are in position to furnish the very best of each grade named. Our mines are especially equipped for preparing coal for the domestic trade,, and are located on the several railroads extending into the coal fields represented. On account of our large output of the several grades of coal, taken into consideration with our facilities for delivery and our long and thorough experience in handling shipments, we are in the best position to meet the conditions that now confront us all and which will enable us to best take care of your needs during the coming winter. Please favor us with your orders at once, and in placing future orders anticipate your needs as far as possible. Respectfully, yours, The McAlester Fuel Company, J. G. Puterbaugh, General Sales Agent, South McAlester, Ind. T. Inspector J. George Wright. Representations were made to me some time ago that there was a combination to control the price of coal in the Territory, and an inspector was sent down here and I understand the matter was referred to the Interstate Commerce Commission. Senator Brandegee. Did the Commission consider it? — A. I understand the Interstate Commerce Commission has recently had a representative in the Territory. Mr. Albert Folsom. I have one more statement to make. I have been informed that a man named Ed. McKenna has sent word to the noncitizens who are living on the segregated coal lands that if they will come to his office and give their names and post-office address and the name of the operator owning the lease, or who is apt to purchase it, and help defray the expenses of a trip to Washington, he will secure legislation permitting them to buy the land. These people are mere squatters and are giving the citizens who have im- provements on these coal lands some trouble. 934 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. Has this matter been referred to the Department? Inspector J. George Wright. This raatter has recently been investigated by my office and a report will be forwarded to the Department. I understand that this man McKenna has been col- lecting $1 from each of these noncitizens who furnish him the names and addresses of those located on this segregated coal land. STATEMENT OF MB. MELVEN CORNISH. I stated this morning that the question of citizenship is of the most vital importance to the Choctaws. It affects a vaster amount of prop- erty than any other question, and consequently each individual mem- ber of the tribes is more vitally concerned. Now, I shall try to be brief in what I have to say to you, and this is the only time I shall address you upon this subject. I feel suie you will hear of it later from others, but what I have to say on this subject I will say now. I particularly wish to say to you that we find citizenship matters at this time, notwithstanding all of the wrongs that have been perpetrated and the mistakes that have been made, to which I shall later on direct your attention, in better condition than any of the other questions, for the reason that there is ample law to finally settle this question at this time. The present law absolutely and finally closes up this question on March 14, next, and after that time nothing further can oe done in citizenship matters. Now, it has been urged by persons representing citizenship claimants that the existing law in regard to citizenship should be repealed and a fin-ther opportunity afforded them to present their claims. I want to urge upon you and make plain to you that the best interests of the Indians and the best interests of the United States Government require that the law be allowed to remain just as it is, and an end put to a question that has been perplexing the nations for the last ten years and more and which has wrongfully taken from the tribes property to the value of many millions of dollars. You gentlemen, of course, are familiar with the legislation of the past winter. It occupied a very considerable portion of the time of the Senate and received a very thorough consideration at the hands of Congress. In that law there is a paragraph which puts an end to citizenship matters. It is found at the bottom of page 1, near the end of page 1, as follows: Provided, That the rolls of the tribes affected by this act shall be fully completed on or before the fourth day of March, nineteen hundred and seven, and the Secretary of the Interior shall have no jurisdiction to approve the enrollment of any person after said date. If that law is carried out, citizenship matters will be brought to an end. All the power that is needed to close up these matters is em- bodied in the present law, and if it is allowed to stand just as it is nothing further will be required. Such was the law which was passed by Congress in its wisdom. It would require more time than I have to give you a full review of citizenship matters, and to state what has been done in these matters, which affect most vitally the rights of the nations. I can only make a hurried and brief reference to them. The matter of citizenship and citizenship claims origi- nally rested in the hands of the tribes until 1899, when, rightfully or wrongfully, the Government assumed jurisdiction. The Dawes FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 935 Commission had been in the country at that time three years, and they reported that great wrongs were being done in citizenship and other matters, and as a result of that report the right of passing on citizenship cases was taken from the hands of the tribes by the act of March 10, 1896. That was the first assumption of citizenship juris- diction by the United States. Under that law the rolls of the tribes were confirmed, and the Commission was given authority to receive and pass upon the applications of persons to be added to the rolls. The Commission had no power to reform the rolls or to strike any one from the rolls, the rolls of the nations having been confirmed by that act. But the Commission was given jurisdiction to add to the rolls the names of such persons as were found entitled to citizenship. In the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations some four thousand persons filed applications, and in most cases the applications were denied. The Chairman. How many people are concerned in the application of Mr. Ballinger — about 1,500? — A. I think that is about correct, but I now have reference to "court claimants" so called, and not the persons represented by Mr. Ballinger. Q. Is the Commission still receiving applications? — A. Under the laws of 1898 and 1902, governing its jurisdiction, the Commission is confined to working over the tribal rolls, or revising them. Unless the applicant's name appears upon some one of the tribal rolls, the Commission has no authority to enroll him. After the first jurisdiction given to the Commission by the act of June 10, 1896, to admit applicants to citizenship, had expired on September 10, 1896, it was given an entirely different and new juris- diction. The power of the Commission was very limited. It could not enroU anyone unless his name appeared upon one of the tribal roUs or he had been admitted under the act of June 10, 1896. Going back to the jurisdiction of the Commission under the act of June 10, 1896, as aforesaid, several thousand persons applied in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and their claims were denied because they were found to be not entitled. In accordance with the terms of the act of June 10, 1896, the 3,500 or 4,000 people whose claims were passed on were permitted to take an appeal to the United States courts for the central and southern districts of the Indian Ter- ritory. These appeals were taken and the cases were there tried de novo in 1897, and practically all of them were admitted. In 1899 the members of the present firm of Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish moved into the Territory. Two years before that time these cases had been passed upon, and the majority of the applicants ad- mitted, and under the provisions of the law those decisions were final. In 1899 we were employed by the Chickasaw Nation in some minor matters and a little later by the Choctaws, and they called to our attention this terrible condition. We found these proceedings, in point of fraud, perjury, and wrong doing practiced, to have never before been equaled in the history of judicial proceedings in this or any other country. We began m 1899, and, from 1899 until 1902, we bombarded Con- gress with appeals to remedy this matter. In 1902 it became appar- ent that a supplemental agreement would have to be made, but this the Indian nations refused to do, unless Congress would make some provision in that agreement for a retrial of these cases. So persistent and so untiring were the efforts of the nations in this regard that the 936 IT7E CIVILIZED TEIBES. Government finally agreed to insert a clause in the agreement pro- viding for the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court, and it was upon this basis that the supplemental agreement was made. The court was organized and testimony was taken, not by depositions before notaries, but before the judges of the court. The iudges of the court traveled into practically every State south of Mason and Dixon's line, and several north of it, to take the testimony, both for the applicants and the nations. After the most painstakmg consid- eration, and after having allowed the widest latitude in the matter of receiving evidence (practically everything offered by the claimants being received), the great majority of them were denied. The work of the court began in the summer of 1902 and ended at the end of 1904, Senator Long. These "court claimants" are Indians, or people of Indian blood, who have never been on the roll. It was a matter of proving their blood ? — A. No; we have never conceded that the mere proving of blood was sufficient to admit these people to citizenship or to share in this property. To put it briejfly, we contend that these lands were ceded to certain people under certain conditions. To share in the distribution of these lands a person must be oneof those persons to whom the lands were ceded, and who complied with all of the terms and conditions of the cession, or one of his descendants. We have never conceded that the simple proving of Indian blood was sufficient. While this was, and is, our contention as to the law, the applicants failed upon the facts, aside from the law. Very few of them were able to establish, as a fact, that they were even possessed of Indian blood. Q. Are these court claimants still pressing their claims? — A. I understand so. I am going to present, briefly, what I have to say now, then I am done. I will not ask to take up any more of the com- mittee's time elsewhere, but I feel sure that you will hear from these court claimants at Ardmore. As I have said, the act of June 10, 1896, made the decisions of the United States courts for the central and southern districts of the Indian Territory final, but Congress, in its wisdom, saw fit to create a new tribunal, empowered to retry these cases, and the right of Con- gress to do this and the constitutionality of the legislation has been mlly sustained by the United States court of appeals for the eighth circuit, at St. Louis. Notwithstanding this, I understand that attor- neys at Ardmore will advance the proposition that the law of 1902, creating the citizenship court for the purpose of retrying these cases, is invalid, and that its decisions should now be disregarded by the Secretary of the Interior in the final preparation of me citizenship rolls. I do not believe that the attorneys who represent these claimants will attempt to say that they are entitled to citizenship upon the merits of their claims, but I understand that they will advance the contention that the judgments of the citizenship court are not final, for the reason that these judgments were rendered under a law that does not provide for the issuing of process for the execution of those judgments. They are different from an ordinary judgment in that they were rendered by a special court created by Congress to act as it did, and there can be no question as to the wisdom of the retrial of these cases, as is shown by the records on file. As to the legal power of Congress to act as it did, that has been sustained by the United HVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 937 States court of appeals for the eighth cu-cuit, at St. Louis. This is one class of the people that you will probably hear from. The other class comprises the freedmen, represented by Mr. Ballinger and others, who seek a transfer from the freedmen roll to the Indian citizenship roll. To this class I shall refer further on. While property of the tribes of probably a million dollars has been taken by the wrongful decisions of the Secretary of the Interior, and his legal adviser. Assistant Attorney-General Campbell, we are not urging that anything be done to restore this property to the tribe or to strike these people from the rolls, but are asking that the law be allowed to remain as it is, that this subject may be closed up and settled, for if the gates, are once opened no man may tell what the consequence will be. It is impossible for you gentlemen to conceive of the pressure chat is beating upon these people from all sides to get their property. You can not fully appreciate the frauds that have been committed and which now threaten, and with the Assistant Attorney-General placing strained constructions on laws in favor of applicants these people are desirous of closing these matters up at once at whatever cost, as they are fearful of the consequence should the gate ever be opened, so great is the pressure and so numerous and powerful are their enemies that they have only one thought and that is to make the best of the wrongs that have already been done and bring the business to an end. Senator Long. I notice that Mr. Ballinger claims that these people are already on the rolls and that this would simply be a transfer. — ^A. The Indians consider these people as freedmen. They are freedmen and not citizens. What they nave is a gratuity of 40 acres given to them out of generosity to the descendants of their former slaves. Senator Teller. What is the nature of the allotment of the freed- man? Is it the same as a citizen? — A. It is less than that of a citizen. It is a gratuity of 40 acres of the average land given to each one of them. Q. They do not participate in the funds? — A. No, sir. There are about 1,500 of these freedmen, who claim to have some Indian blood, who wish to be transferred from the freedman roll to the Indian rolls; and instead of them receiving 40 acres they would be entitled to 360 acres of land and participate in the distribution of the tribal funds. These people have always been freedmen and not Indians, and no living man ever classed them as Indiains until the last two years. These persons are freedmen because of the fact that they are descended from colored persons who were the slaves of these Indians. They have always occupied that status. Their status has always been fixed among the Choctaws and Chickasaws. In 1898, when the Commission was empowered to receive applications for citizenship, these people, every man, woman, and child, applied voluntarily as freedmen and were so enrolled. There was no protest or objection. This roll has been approved; they have selected their land and filed on it and certificates of allotment have been issued to them. And now, after all of this has been done, the idea has been conceived in the brain of some enterprising citizenship lawyer that perhaps they might be of some degree of Indian blood and might be transferred from the freedman roll to the citizenship roll. The rule which the commission to the Five Civilized Tribes has followed in making up these (and it is required to follow that rule by law, which states that 938 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. the laws, customs, and usages of the Chocktaw and Chickasaw nations shall be observed) , is that a child follows its mother's status. If the child be illegitimate, it necessarily takes its mother's status, for it has no father in the law. As for these persons the most that can be contended for them, and the most that is contended, is that they are the children of slave women, illegitimately begotten by Indian men. Because a person has negro blood in his veins it does not nec- essarily follow that he is not entitled to citizenship. There are a number of persons upon the citizenship roll who are possessed of negro blood in some degree, and this does not necessarily disqualify them from citizenship. They are really citizens in the proper and usual sense, but their status must be fixed hj the laws, usages, an4 customs. Now, there can be no claim that these are legitimate chil- dren. The best that can be claimed for them is that they are the ille- gitimate children of negro slave women and Choctaw or Chickasaw men. There can be no contention that they are legitimate children or the issue of a legal marriage, and according to the Indian laws, customs, and usages they must take the status of their mother. The cases of Joe and Dillard Perry were passed on by Assistant Attorney-General Campbell. They are children of a negro slave woman, whose status has always been that of freedmen and whose mother was a slave. Upon application of the mother in 1898, they were enrolled as freedmen, and they subsequently received their allotment certificates for 40 acres of land, and it was not until 1903 that the idea was suggested that because of the fact that there might be shown to be some Indian blood in them — that they were the chil- dren of an Indian man named Perry — they might be transferred to the roll of Chickasaw Indian citizens. The case was submitted to Assistant Attorney-General Campbell, and he decided the case in their favor. In this particular case some oral testimony was taken which tended to show that there had been a marriage between this man and their mother, although we do not think this fact was suffi- ciently or conclusively established. While Assistant Attorney- General Campbell commented on this fact, he based his decision upon the alleged fact that they were the children of an Indian man, and thus made his decision applicable to this entire class of persons, num- bering some 1,500 people. We then raised the question that if under this decision they were entitled to be enrolled as citizens because of their Indian blood, they had not made application within the time required in the supplemental agreement, which was that applications should be filed by December 25, 1902, and on this point he was obliged to hold with us. Senator Long. So they were not transferred? — A. Since then it has been developed that their mother made application for them in 1896 as Indians, and although that paper — ten years old — is on file imder a wholly different law and for a different purpose, it was held that it was a continuing application and sufficient under the law of 1902. Senator Clark of Montana. For what purpose was this application filed, and how would it differ from those filed under the later law? — A. Senator, the law of 1896 only conferred power upon the Commis- sion to admit to citizenship and to add the names thus admitted to the then existing tribal rolls. The laws of 1898 and 1902, under which the Commission is now working, conferred an entirely different juris- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 939 diction. The only jurisdiction given by those later laws was to make up the tribal rolls from existing rolls. Under the later law the Com- mission has no power whatever to add to the tribal rolls. If the name is found upon any of the existing rolls, it may be placed upon the final roll, which the Commission is supposed to be preparing. Notwith- standing this, the assistant attorney-general held that that application might be taken from the old files and placed with the papers on file in this case, although, as I have said, it was filed under an entirely dif- ferent law and at a time when the Commission was exercising an entirely different jurisdiction. There can properly be no more con- nection between the 1896 proceedings and the present work of the Commission than between the tax receipts of you gentlemen and an application for citizenship. Now, certain representations have been made at Muskogee by Mr. Webster Ballinger in regard to the circumstances under which these applications for em'ollment as Chickasaw freedmen were made. Two false statements have been made in regard to them. One is that many persons of this class applied to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes in 1898 for enrollment as citizens, and were denied such permission, and were forced to apply as freedmen. The other is that the shorthand notes taken in connection with such applications were not transcribed until seve\-al years after that time. About all of these facts I possess a personal knowledge. In addition to the arguments here made, I wish this statement to be considered as evidence, and upon the suggestion of either the parties representing the freedmen, or of the committee, I am willing to be placed under oath. I entered the Indian Territory in 1898 as an employee of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, and was connected with the Commission in that capacity when all of these applications were taken. Appointments for the taking of these applications were held at Stonewall, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, Tishomingo, Lebanon, Colbert, Duncan, and Chickasha, beginning early in September and ending in the latter part of November 1898. Messrs. Tams Bixby and T. B. Needles were the members of the Commission who had charge of the enrollment of applicants for Indian citizenship, while Capt. A. S. McKennon, who now lives in this city, was the member of the Conunission who received the applications of those who desired enrollment as freedmen. I was the clerk and stenographer of Cap- tain McKennon from the beginning to the end of this work. I took every application and took down in shorthand the oral statement of every person who applied for enrollment as a Chickasaw freedman. From the beginning to the end of this work I did not hear it sug- gested by a single person, or in a single instance, or from any quarter, that the applications of the persons as Chickasaw freedmen were unsatisfactory to them. Neither did I hear it suggested by any one of them, or by anyone in their behalf, that they desired to apply as Indian citizens instead of Chickasaw freedmen. Their applications were voluntary, and no dissatisfaction was expressed. The Chickasaw freedmen had provided a commission, headed by one Charles Cohee, to cooperate with the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes in the enrollment of their people. I remember, besides Charles Cohee, some two or three other members of this commission, as follows: Henry Gaines, Solomon McGilvary, and Isaac Stephenson. There were one or two others whose names I 940 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. can not recall. My recollection is that Charles Cohee and practically all of the other members of this commission were present at every sitting of the Commission throughout the Chickasaw Nation, and nothing was heard from them by way of protest, or otherwise, against the manner in which the work of the Commission was being conducted. On the other hand, so courteous and considerate was Captain McKen- non, who had charge of their affairs, that the relations between him- and these representatives of their people were pleasant and agree- able in every way, and they took occasion to often express their gratitude to him and other members of the Commission for the manner in which the affairs of their people were being conducted. As to the other charge, that the shorthand notes were not trans- cribed until several years after this work, I wish to say, as above stated, that I took the shorthand notes, which together with the field cards constitute all of the record in the above cases, and immedi- ately after the return of the Commission and its employees to the general offices in Muskogee late in November I was instructed by the Commission to transcribe these notes. This was done, and I state positively that the entire record was. transcribed and type- written within thirty days after the return of the party from the field. The claim that persons of this class are entitled to enrollment as Indians has originated in the minds of enterprising lawyers within the last year or two. It was never heard of before from any source. These persons voluntarily applied as Chickasaw freedmen in 1898. Their testimony was taken showing their Indian owner, or that of their ancestors. This testimony was voluntarily given. Later on their names were placed upon the Chickasaw freedmen roll, and this roll was approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Later on the land offices were opened. Under the provisions of the supplemental agreement of 1902 these persons voluntarily applied to the land office as Chickasaw freedmen, and in pursuance of their enrollment were given the 40 acres of land to which they were entitled. The law requires the Commission, in making up the rolls, to follow the Indian laws, customs, and usages, and it is the Indian law and custom that in the case of an illegitimate child the child follows the status of the mother. If there be a legal marriage, and the mother has rights, still the child follows the mother, but if the child be legitimate, and the mother not a citizen and not entitled to tribal rights, then, in that event, the child takes the status of the father. Senator Long. Did you say that the testimony showed that there was not a legal marriage? — A. In the great majority of these cases no legal marriage is claimed or can be shown. In the Perry case, and possibly one or two others, there may be some evidence of a mar- riage. In the Perry case the evidence was, I think, that Perry had been cohabiting with this colored woman. They were arrested and taken for trial to Paris, Tex. They returned and the woman after- wards testified in some proceeding that there had been a marriage in order to avoid the consequences of that arrest. But the decision of the Assistant Attorney-General, even in this case, did not rest upon the fact that there had been a valid marriage, but was based upon the alleged fact of their Indian blood, and this in face of the fact that the law says that illegitimate children follow the status of their FIVE CIVILIZBD TRIBES. 941 mother, who, in these cases, was a colored woman and a slave, and entitled to rights as such. By Senator Teller : Q. WeU, have these people, these 1,500 freedmen that you speak about, have they been transferred to the Indian citizenship roll? — A. No, sir; only, those in the Joe and DiUard Perry case, and then only in the way I state, by permitting them to make use of the ap- plication filed in 1896. Q. Are you asking for legislation striking them from the citizen- ship roU? — A. No, Senator; we are asking that the laws remain just as they are. Notwithstanding the injustice that has been done these people in these and other cases, they are not asking any redress, being reartul that if the gates are once opened far greater injustices and wrongs may be done them. The existing law will put an end to these matters, and they are willing to let these cases stand if only these citizenship matters wiU come to an end next March. Those seeking legislation are the representatives of these freedmen and the "court claimants." Under the decision of Assistant Attorney-General Campbell these freedmen might be enrolled, except for the fact that they did not apply in time, and it is to get over this point that they are seeking legislation. They base their recjuest for additional legislation upon this isolated decision of a subordinate of the Secretary of the Interior, which is contrary to the decisions of every tribunal that has ever passed upon these questions heretofore, and contrary to every expres- sion of Congress upon this subject. Is this decision of this man Campbell of such weight as to sweep away the decision of every other tribunal and to cause Congress to reverse itself and to adopt a course diametrically opposed to that heretofore pursued ? Let us review briefly the record of his decision in like cases and see if they are entitled to such consideration. The supplemental agreement of 1902 provided for the identification of fuU-blood Mississippi Choctaws without reference to the fourteenth article. This was a gift on the part of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. There was no authority to enroll any but full bloods. Notwithstanding this Assistant Attorney-General Campbell held that this clause extended <;o mixed-blood children. Now, another case. The law of 1898 provided that the Commission and the Secretary of the Interior shall elinninate from the tribal rolls those names placed thereon by fraud or without authority of law. The reason for the assumption for citizenship jurisdiction by the United States Government was to correct the corruption and mis- conduct of the tribal officials. Notwithstanding this Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General for the Interior Department, held in the Coleman case that the Commission and the Secretary had no authority to go behind the tribal roUs, and that, notwithstanding what may have been shown as to the enrollment, it was the duty of the Commission to merely transfer the name from the tribal roU to the Government roU. This decision was made in the face of the fact, clearly shown, that Coleman was not a Choctaw Indian and that his enrollment had been procured at the hands of the tribal authorities by fraud and without authority of law. In the Lula West case, the applicants were denied by the citizenship court. The law fixing this court's jurisdiction 942 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. provides that its decisions shall be final. Notwithstanding this, Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General for the Interior Depart- ment, held in this case that the citizenship court was without juris- diction and that its decision was void. He based his decision upon the fact that their names are found upon one of the tribal rolls. As stated in the Coleman case, the Govermnent's tribunal was to test the tribal enrollment and to approve such enrollment if found to be correct, and to correct the same if found to be incorrect. In the W. C. Thompson et al. case, these applicants were adversely- passed upon by the Commission under the act of June 10, 1896, and its decision was jnade final by the law. Assistant Attorney-General Campbell rendered a decision holding that the decision of the Com- mission was void for the reason that the names of the applicants were found upon a tribal roll. It was shown conclusively that their enrollment was obtained by fraud and without authority of law. Yet the judgment of the Government's tribunal was ousted in favor of the act ot the tribe corruptly and illegally obtained. In the Mary Elizabeth Martin case, this applicant is a white person and a child of two intermarried white persons, and possesses and claims no Indian blood. Besides that, she applied to the Commission in 1896 and was denied, and its decision under the law was final against her. Notwithstanding this decision of the Government's tribunal and the facts as shown, the Assistant Attorney-General for the Interior Department, Mr. Campbell, rendered a decision holding that she was entitled to citizenship. In the King Brandy case, these applicants were full-blood Choctaw Indians identified under the treaty of 1902. The treaty provided that they might, after identification, remove to the Choctaw Nation, Ind. T., and establish their residence, if done within one year. That time expired before their removal,, but the Secretary, acting upon an opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General for the Department of the Interior, Mr. Campbell, arbitrarily extended the time six months. Whereupon the attorneys for the nations applied to the United States court for the western district of the Indian Territory and secured an injunction, which now stands. Another case involved the payment of town-site money to Missis- sippi Choctaws. The treaty of 1902 provides that identified Missis- sippi Choctaws may have citizenship and be entitled to lands, if they live continuously thereon three years after settlement. The three- year period had not expired as to any of them when the town-site moneys were paid out last year. Notwithstanding this, and the fact that the citizenship of these persons might be forfeited by removal or abandonment, the Secretary, acting upon Mr. Campbell's advice, paid the town-site money to every identified Mississippi Choctaw. Then again, the act of April 26, 1906, provides that the children of duly enrolled members of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, may be enrolled with their parents. Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen have never been considered citizens or members. What they have they hold as a gift under the treaties. No legislation making use of the term citizen or member has ever included them, or intended to include them. The treaty of 1902 specifically defines the term citizen or member as follows : The words "member" or "members" and "citizen" or "citizens" shall be held to mean members or citizens of the Choctaw or Chickasaw tribes of Indians in the Indian Territory, not including freedmen. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 943 Notwithstanding this, the Assistant Attorney-General for the Inte- rior Department, Mr. Campbell, has held that the children of Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen are entitled to be eittolled under the act of April 26, 1906. Senator Teller. Did you apply to have these decisions reviewed by the Attorney-General? The decision of the Assistant Attorney- General is not binding upon the Secretary. Mr. Cornish. I am coming to that. Senator. In every case where we have been able to have the question of law certified to the Attorney- General we have succeeded in having the Assistant Attorney-General for the Department of the Interior, Mr. Campbell, reversed, but on some of the points, as in the Perry case, we have been refused a review by the Attorney-General. In this connection let me say that the decisions of Mr. Campbell are not being criticised for the sake of criticism. We think it has been shown and can be shown that his decisions upon these points in these various cases are incorrect. That, however, is not the whole purpose. Those who represent these citizenship claimants who wish to be trans- ferred from the freedman roll to the citizenship roll base their conten- tions entirely upon the decision of the Assistant Attorney-General for the Interior Department in the Perry case. There has never been any other decision by any tribunal, either judicial or otherwise, in their favor. There has never been an expression by Congress in their favor. Every expression of every tribunal and every expression of Congress heretofore has been in harmony with the views of the nations as nere and now expressed. If the existing law is carried out and no other action by Congress is taken, this question and all other questions of citizensmp will be disposed of at an early date, and the rights of no persons or class of persons will be violated, except perhaps the Choc- taws and Chickasaws, as a result of the decisions of Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General for the Department of the Interior, in the cases heretofore referred to. Because and only because of this isolated decision of this subordi- nate legal adviser of the Secretary of the Interior, Congress is asked to reverse every expression heretofore made in legislation, and is also asked to reverse every judicial decision heretofore made on this sub- ject. The purpose of all of this criticism is to show that this utterance of Mr. Campbell is hardly entitled to the weight that they urge should be given it. Senator Teller. But these decisions of the Assistant Attorney- General are not binding upon the Secretary or anybody. I have known several instances where the Secretary of the Interior has ignored them entirely and has refused to follow them. Mr. Cornish. Yes, Senator, but in these cases the Secretary does follow them, and has refused to allow several of them to go to the Attorney-General for review. We are not alone in our criticism of Assistant Attorney-General Campbell's decisions. They have been criticised time and again by the Attorney-General of the United States, whose subordinate he also is. During the past few years we have on several occasions applied to the Secretary of the Interior for permission to have certified to the Attorney-General the questions of law involved in the cases upon which Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General for the Interior Department, has passed, and in every instance where this permission has been granted we have pre- 944 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. vailed and the Attorney-General has sustained the Choctaws and Chickasaws as against Mr. Campbell. We refer particularly to the question of the nuxed-blood children of full-blood Mississippi Choctaws. Mr. Campbell held that they were entitled, while the Attorney-General reversed him and held that the law should be observed as written. In the Coleman case Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General, held that the tribal rolls were superior to the acts of Congress. The Attor- ney-General reversed him and held that the Government's representa- tives should eliminate from the tribal rolls any names placed thereon by fraud or without authority of law. In the Martin case Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General, held the appUcants entitled to enrollment. The Attorney-General reversed him and held with the Choctaws and Chickasaws that the applicants were not entitled under the laws and treaties. In the King Brandy case, above referred to, Mr. Campbell held that the time for the establishment of a residence might be arbitrarily extended. The United States court for the western district of the Indian Territory held otherwise, and granted an injunction, which now stands. We are confident of the correctness of our position when we say that Mr. Campbell, the Assistant Attorney-General, would have been reversed in many other cases if permission had been granted to have his decisions reviewed. In the case of Lula West, involving the validity of the decisions of the citizenship court, permission was asked on behalf of the Choctaws and Chickasaws to have his decision reviewed. This permission was denied by the Secretary of the Interior. The same is true in the case of W. C. Thompson et al., above referred to. The importance of these questions of law was presented to the Secretary of the Interior as the basis of the request fo.rthe review of the decision of Mr. Camp- bell, Assistant Attorney-Gfeneral for the Interior Department, but the Secretary of the Interior advised that he had no doubt of the cor- rectness of the decision of his Assistant Attorney-General, and per- mission to have the decision reviewed was denied. Senator Long. What would be the effect of an amendment to the present law like this : That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to correct the record of the enrollment of * * * as sjiown by the records of the Gov- ernment, who , through mistake or error by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, has been deprived of said status, and upon the correction of said error said person shall have all the rights and privileges he would have had in the first place. Mr. Cornish. It could not be broader. Senator Long. Then that little clause would open up the entire question and let in these people? Mr. Cornish. It could not be broader. It would place us com- pletely at the mercy of Mr. Campbell and the Secretary. Such a provision of law would deprive the Choctaws and Chickasaws of every safeguard that has been built up by judicial decisions and legis- lative acts for the past eight years, place them completely at the mercy of the Secretary of the Interior, and through him at the mercy of his Assistant Attorney-General, and place a premium of from $5,000 to $15,000 (that is what a citizenship right is estimated at down here) upon every colored woman in the Choctaw and Chickasaw natrons who would be willing to swear that an Indian man was the father of her children. This is a condition that the Choctaws and Chickasaws can not meet. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 945 It appalls the human mind to conceive of such a condition. Just think of placing a premium of $5,000 upon the perjury of every irresponsible colored woman. In the face of this the Choctaws and Chickasaws would be helpless to refute it. It is a condition they can not meet. So I say to you that if any injustice will be done by allowing the present laws to stand just as they are, and so put an end to all these citizenship matters, it will be to the Choctaws and Chicka- saws themselves. But they are wilhng to submit to these injustices in order to avoid greater ones, for they believe that if once the bars are let down no man can tell where the matter will end. Time only adds additional complications and gives rise to greater dangers. They have seen ixiilhons in value of their property wrongfully taken from them, and they are fearful of any further delay and only want to have what remains in lands and money distributed among them at the earliest possible time. I thank you, gentlemen, on behalf of the Choctaws and Chickasaws for the permission accorded me to present these matters to you. TESTIMONY OF MR. A. S. McKENNON. Mr. A. S. McKennon, a witness produced by the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, being first duly sworn by the chairman of the committee, testified as follows : By Mr. Cornish : Q. What is your name? — A. A. S. McKennon. Q. Where do you live ? — A. South McAlester, Ind. T. Q. Were you ever a member of the Dawes Commission, and if so, when and how long? — A. I was a member of the Dawes Commission from November 1, 1893, to the 27th of June, 1900. Q. State to the committee in what work you were engaged in the fall of 1898. — A. The Commission was going through the Chickasaw Nation, and it was my part of the work to receive applications for enrollment of the Chickasaw freedmen. They had never been enrolled for under the laws and treaties prior to that time, they were not entitled to share in the lands and properties of the tribes. So it became my duty to make up a roll of the Chickasaw freedmen. You will understand that I had to take up and determine the rights of each individual before entering the name upon the rolls. Before entering upon this duty, I wrote to the Chickasaw freedmen requesting them to select a committee of a half a dozen, I think, of their number, good reliable men to assist me in this work. They selected such a com- mittee and appeared when I went to work at Stonewall in the Chick- asaw Nation. The Choctaws and the Chickasaws also had commit- tees to assist in that work. Mr. Bixby and Mr. Needles, the other members of the Commission, were in a separate tent from mine, emoUing the Choctaws and Chickasaws by blood. It was my duty to make this roll of the freedmen and also enroll the court citizens. Q. You mean by that those that had been admitted by the United States courts at this place and at Ardmore ? — A. Yes, sir. By Senator Long : Q. The United States district courts?— A. Yes, sir. Mr. Cornish was my stenographer during this time, and they would appear before me and I would receive their applications, and their statements were S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 61 946 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. taken down by Mr. Cornish in the presence of these Chickasaws and these other freedmen, who knew them, almost every one, and we pro- ceeded to make the roll in that way. The Choctaw and Chickasaw committeemen were permitted to make any kind of a suggestion and render any assistance, and the Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen were treated just as the others were, and there was no objections made by anyone and I never heard anything of this matter of enrolling fiersons who had formerly been slaves, or their descendants, as ndians, because of their having Indian lalood. I never heard any- thing of that during the time that we were at Stonewall, Winnewood, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, Tishomingo, Duncan, or Chickasha. At Tishomingo I was called to Washington, and was not with the Comj mission at Lebanon. I rejoined the Commission at Colbert and was at every other appointment. When I got through, all of these people expressed entire satisfaction. I treated them courteously and kindly and had no trouble with anybody. No question was raised as to the enrollment by anyone. The only difficulty I had with anyone was some one, I forget his name, who insisted upon being enrolled, but was ruled out by the others and myself. By the Chairman : Q. As a freedman ? — A. Yes, sir. But it was clearly proven that he was not a Chickasaw freedman. We were all agreed that he was not entitled. There was some talk of a prosecution for perjury, but that was stopped, although I think that talk may have deterred others from applying who were not entitled and those that did appear were generally found to be bona fide freedmen of the Chickasaw Nation. By Senator Long : Q. What have 3^ou to say of the claim that a number of persons whom you enrolled as freedmen had previously applied as citizens and had been denied before they came to your tent? — A. If there was a single instance I was never informed of it. If anything of the kind occm-red I am sure I would remember it. It was a very pleasant task for me. The colored people behaved themselves very well, and I found Mr. Cohee to be a very honest and intelligent man. Q. Of course you didn't know what had taken place in the other tent? — A. No, sir. Q. But you heard no discussion in your tent about some of these applicants enrolled by you having been denied in the other tent ? — A. No, sir. Something has been said about enrolling them after their mother. Before we went on the trip, I think in the latter part of 1897 or 1 898, the question arose at Muskogee as to the manner of enrolling Indians. I think Mr. Givens was representing some parties that wanted to be enrolled as Creeks. We addressed a communication to the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Givens was representing the other side and I was representing the Commission. It was the ruling of the Department that they should be enrolled after their mother. By Senator Long : Q. Where there was no proof of marriage ? — A. In all cases. By Mr. Cornish : Q. In all cases where the mother was a citizen? — A. Yes, sir. I simply addressed myself to the task of determining whether they or FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 947 their ancestors were slaves of the Chickasaws; if so, I enrolled them; if not, they were not entitled. Q. Please state how the testimony was taken. — A. By Mr. Cornish. We were very much crowded in our work. He took down the testi- mony and upon our return to Muskogee it was transcribed. It was transcribed immediately, for Mr. Cornish kept at it until it was done. Up to the time I left the Commission I never heard anything of this idea of enrolling these people as citizens. In fact, I never heard any- thing of it until recently. The Chairman. It has been called to my attention that there has been some dissatisfaction expressed in regard to the time allowed to the side of the nations in discussing this citizenship and freedman question and not enough time given to the side of the freedmen. I have only to say that two evening sessions at Muskogee, from 8 to 10.30 and 8 to 11, were devoted to this side of the question, and this session is the time set for the presentation of the tribal side of the ques- tion. I therefore think that the committee has been justified in giving this horn' and a half to the tribal side of the question and would not have been justified in not doing so. The committee will now take a recess until 8 o'clock this evening. So the committee at 6 o'clock p. m. took a recess till 8 p. m., when it reassembled. EVENING SESSION. The Chairman. I hope that all present who have any information or suggestion to give to the committee will realize that the time of the committee is very limited, and I hope they will condense matters as far as possible in any presentation that they have to make. I say this, not with the view of cutting out any one, but that it may be borne in mind by all that the committee is much pressed for time, and if anything has to be omitted no one will be nearly so sorry as the members of the committee. I understand that Mr. Chester Howe has a matter to present upon which he has expended some time. He represents a delegation of Indians who wish some special relief. How much time do you think, Mr. Howe, you will need for the presentation of your case ? Mr. Howe. There are two committees here of full bloods who desire to be heard through me, and as far as I am personally con- cerned, I merely wish to answer the request of the committee that I speak as to the actual effect of the act of 1906 in the Wilson case. The Chairman. How long do you think those three things will take? Mr. Howe. I can not speak for the other parties, but I think most of it is in typewriting. The Chairman. Is Doctor Wright in the room? Doctor Wright. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long do you think it will take to properly present the matter upon which you wish to speak ? Doctor Wright. I can not tell you. Senator. The Chairman. Can you give us any idea ? Doctor AVright. I will make it as short as I can. We have been here two davs to be heard. The Chairman. I am fully aware of that, and only regret that 948 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. we are not going to be here another day. That is rendered impos- sible by the pressure of business in other directions. Doctor Wright. I will try to make it as short as half an hour. The Chairman. Of course I do not mean to say that we will confine you to the exact limits, but we would like some sort of an idea how long it would take. (To Mi*. McKenna.) How long will it take you to present your matter? ill-. McKenna. Ten minutes, I think. The Chairman. I think that perhaps we can give hearings to all who have spoken to me, and can finish up this evening if all are to the point and concise. Now you may proceed, Mr. Howe. STATEMENT OF MB. CHESTER HOWE. Mr. Howe. I represent the opposite side of the case mentioned by Mr. Cornish. I would like, if I had the time, to have answered him, and I would like to request that some time in Washington, if the mat- ter comes up, I may get an opportunity to be heard. I am not going to take the time now and here. You did not come here now to hear me if I can be heard at another time and place. There is one thing that I ought to say and that is in defense or a tribunal before which I have frequently appeared. There have been some comments made with regard to the decisions of the assistant attorney-general for the Interior Department. I have had the honor of appearmg before him and the attorneys for the nations also appeared. In the month of September there were oral hearings lasting for a period of five days before a board composed of Assistant Attorney-General Campbell and Attorneys Proudfit, Webster, and Pollock, and those men are all honor- able lawyers and rendered decisions which they believed to be just and which will speak for themselves, and will last long after we have all passed away. They are not here present and I am giving a little consideration to the absent men. I desire to appear only upon one proposition before this committee, and that is the actual working effect of the fourth section of the act of April 26, 1906, under the only adjudicated case, and my reason for bringing that case up is not to seek any relief in the case, but to let the committee know how it works. Senator Long. That is what we want to know. Mr. Howe. Here is a case in which an opinion has been rendered by the Secretary of the Interior — a recent case — it should have been a consolidated case. It is that of Katie Wilson and Harriet Wilson, two full sisters, married to two full-blood Indians, Martin and John Wilson; they were half Chickasaw and half Choctaw. The wives were of negro blood, with some admixture of Indian, possibly and probably, in fact certain; but at the same time they rank as freedmen. Martin Wilson died on December 24, 1899, before an allotment was made. He was enrolled on the 1896 roll, the only roll he could have been enrolled on. Both husbands are now dead. Harriet Wil- son, the wife of John Wilson, is the administratrix of the estate before the Atoka court and her children are the beneficiaries of that adminis- tration. Katie Wilson received no benefit from her husband's allot- ment, becavse he did not get one. The children of that marriage were enrolled as freedmen. The fathers went to the Dawes Commission or whatever the commission was and the records simply show that the FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 949 wife and children were enrolled as freedmen and they made applica- tion for a transfer away back last year after the Joe and Dillard Perry case was decided. That application was pending and was referred to the attorney-general for the Interior Department on the 25th of January. On April 26 it had not been decided. There had been an accumulation of business before that Department and if the cases had been adjudicated before April 26, their rights would unqi estionably, under the Joe and Dillard Perry case, have been allowed. The act was construed to be retroactive. Thereafter any further transfers — that case was said to apply to applications which were then pending. The Chairman. When was this application made? Mr. Howe. Some time last fall, and it was referred on the 25th of January to the Assistant Attorney-General. I have the honor to file the opinion of the Attorney-General, in which this act is quoted. It goes on at length and states the case. I have an uncontradicted statement in here — one filed and served and held to be correct as to the case, I think, without question. This is a correct copy of the statement made before the Secretary and the opinion of the Secretary, and relates the facts and circumstances connected with the case. The opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General says : All this, however, is immaterial in view of the provisions of section 4 of the act approved April 26, 1906 (34 Stat., 137), which reads as follows: "That no name shall by transcribed from the approved freedmen or any other approved rolls of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, or Seminole tribe, respectively, to the roll of citizens be blood unless the records in charge of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes show that application for enrollment as a citizen by blood was made within the time prescribed by law by or for the party seeking the transfer, and said records shall be conclusive evidence as to the fact of such application, unless it be shown by docu- mentary evidence that the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes actually received such application within the titne prescribed by law." Under the facts stated by^ the Commissioner these applicants come clearly within the inhibition of this provision of law, and their request to be transferred can not b e granted. It is not claimed in the papers now before me that application for enrollment as a citizen by blood was made within the time prescribed by law by or for any of these persons, nor is there anything to indicate that any of them come within the exception in the law. That is, where documentary evidence could be produced In other words, there is nothing tending to impugn the correctness of the statement that no such application was made. The law prohibits the transfer of these names, and the application must for that reason be denied. It is not intended by this to express any opinion as to the merits of the case or as to what action would have been proper in the absence of a provision like that of the act of April 26, 1906. Now, that is a square holding by the Secretary of the Interior to the effect that in this case, where the parties were married, where the husband is an allottee, where his card showed when he enrolled and where he has taken an allotment as a citizen by blood, the Commission must have known that he had children. Enrolling them as freedmen, they knew that they were of his blood. And more than that, they knew that they were fully of the half blood. As a matter of fact they are about three-quarters, which shows clearly and completely that under this law — contrary to the inference, as I see it, left by Mr. Cornish — that whether married or not no child who has once been enrolled as a freedman can be transferred. There are not four cases that I know of coming within the section. There is no evidence but the card. I do not suppose that any member of this committee ever saw a copy of a field card. 950 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. I think we have about a dozen of them in the record. Mr. Howe. I did not know that. I received a copy of this card, and it had glaring inaccuracies. It says, " Martin Wilson, Chickasaw freedman." That is a mistake. This woman was 36 years of age, not 39. That was a misrepresentation of the age. As a matter of fact, in the report they say that this woman appeared before them on the 30th day of August, and the truth is that the husband was hving at that time, and proof of the fact of his death is complete, because it was put in the case by the man who dug the grave and made the coffin and preached the funeral sermon and the people who attended the funeral. I think that is conclusive. She went back in Januar;^ to see if her younger child was enrolled. They then called off the names of her children and asked her if they were living. Senator Long. There is nothing in this card to show that he was a citizen by blood ? Mr. Howe. Not a thing. But in the report of the Commission it is admitted all the way through. That is a case in which the card is erroneous. Senator Long. What evidence is there on the record to show that he was? Mr. Howe. The report of the Dawes Commission. It is not charged to the contrary. They admit it. The cases of himself and his brother were consolidated, or should have been. They were filed at the same time. They were separated merely for the purposes of the decision. They are not denying. They are reporting. That card has not been sent up for consideration by the Secretary of the Interior with the report. It shows that he was enrolled as a full blood. ■ The Chairman. Do you want to put this in the record? Mr. Howe. I do not care anything about it. It is offered for your information, and we can furnish copies later. There was only one trouble about this enactment, and that has never been considered. In the treaty of 1866 the commissioners of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations agreed as follows ; Article 4. * * * And they agree on the part of their respective nations that all laws shall be equal in their operation upon Choctaws, Chickasaws, and negroes, and that no distinction affecting the latter shall at any time be made. That is the law of this land. It is the last treaty made. It means equality of right of inheritance,, and equality of position, not equality of land. No one claims for an instant that a freedman is entitled to more than 40 acres of land, but a woman who was white or from another tribe of Indians, any woman other than a negro woman, would be entitled to her rights as an intermarried citizen, and her children would be entitled to enrollment by blood. /And they would be so enrolled. These people, full-blood Indians, freedmen, and others, not understanding their rights, came up and took what they received. The nation has been well represented by attorneys, but these people did not have anyone. If this works wrong I simply call upon the committee for its correction. If it does not work wrong, and you are satisfied, let it go, of course. If there were statements made under which that legislation was obtained, and I apprehend that there were — I think I know there were^ — and those statements are disproven by the facts, then we ask a correction. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 951 Now, as to the number. I understand it is stated that there are 1,500. I do not think that there is anyone here more competent to pass upon the number than myself. Nearly all these people are corre- spondents of mine. I think that most of these applications have passed through my office. I think the number of 1,500 is approxi- mately correct. But of that number, how many can make proof? I think it is nearer 800 who can make the proof necessary under a proper law or under any law. The Dawes Commission could get up a record in thirty days. The S roofs are there. They are either Choctaws or not. But the proofs ascending from the mother are not clear. I find that the rule as laid down has not been followed and I contradict the definition in the sup- plementary or Atoka agreement, as given, for this reason; it was not fully quoted. The q^uotation given is "as used in this agreement the term freedman and citizen shall mean so and so. " These people were adopted by the Choctaw people. They give 6very citizen rights, except black. They had a right to hold office and they had the rights of otner citizens except to hold land. The Chairman. I suppose that they were given the political rights without the rights of property. Senator Long. What have you to say as to the law forbidding mar- riage of a Choctaw or Chickasaw with a woman of negro blood ? Mr. Howe. It is absolutely void. Senator Long. When was the law passed ? Mr. Howe. After this agreement. The Chairman. But was there not a prior law? Senator Long. Was there not one in 1849 ? Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; there was a law during the slave days and another law during those days that no free woman of color should remain within the limits and anyone who should harbor such a woman was liable to prosecution. They did not want negroes to grow up there. The Chairman. Was there any law from the time that slavery existed up to the time of the law you mention ? . Mr. Howe. When the Commission went to the Creek country they obliged; that is, they insisted upon their taking their freedmen into full citizenship as to lands, moneys, and everything. When they came here with the Choctaws they placed this clause in the law: They guar- anteed them equality before the law. In order to make that binding they entered it in the treaty. There is another article in this treaty that is often quoted and it may apply to this. It is article 26. " The right here given to Choctaws and Chickasaws respectively shall extend to all persons who have become citizens by adoption or intermarriage of either of said nations, or who may hereafter become such. ' ' And the language of the adopting statute which adopted the Choctaw freedmen is rerj full and conclusive and bears only the limitation as to land. Now in view of that this woman had a right to marry a Choctaw. There was no prohibition. When she did she was the equal or occu- pied identically the same position of a white woman had it been a white woman that had married. There can be no distinction between a white woman and a woman of color merely because she is colored, nor can there be any distinction between the children of that union. That is all that anyone could or can ask. The broadcast assertion made here with regard to the most religious population of this country is all wrong. These people, these freed- 952 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. men in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, or a larger percentage of them are more nearly members of the church, are more nearly, as they see it, with their light, truly religious than any other people in this country. And you will find that there are records of marriage among them as full and complete as among any other class of people. They do marry and they do attend their churches. You all know that that is true of the blacks throughout the entire country where they are fairly prosperous and where they are not densely ignorant. Now, gentlemen of the committee, I wish to bring before you the children who are affected by this decision as to minors and who are said to be negroes [indicating the children who passed before the committee]. These are the children affected by this decision. Do, you suppose the officers could have known that they were not Indians the moment they saw them? This [indicating] is the grandfather on the mother's side. I should like now to ask that the committee hear the full-blooded delegation headed by Jacob Jackson. I wish the committee just to see these particular people to settle the question whether they show the Indian blood or the other. They are three-quarters Indian. The honorable Select Committee of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. We have the honor to submit for your consideration the decision and an uncontra- dicted statement filed in the case of Katie Wilson et al., an application for transfer from the rolls of Choctaw freedmen to freedmen by blood. This is the only adjudicated case under the act of April 26, 1906. and is, therefore, of the greatest importance. The statement is a carbon copy of the statement filed before the honorable Secretary of the Interior, and has never been contradicted. In fact, is admitted by the report of the Commis,=!ioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. At the time this was filed the act of April 26, 1906, had not been passed, and certified copies of the record could not be obtained. Attorneys were, therefore, laboring under a great disadvantage. After the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes had made his report, claiming that Martin Wilson was dead at the time of the enrollment of these children, affidavits were submitted showing that he died on December 24, 1899. These affidavits were conclusive upon that proposition, as they included the affidavit of the minister who preached the funeral service, parties who were present at the burial, and there was no showing as to when the entry "dead'' was made on the roll. A certified copy of the field card was obtained. "This card is incorrect in almost every particular and shows the manner in which the Commission records weie kept. It shows Martin Wilson to be a Chickasaw freedman, whereas it is undenied that his name is on the 1896 census roll as a full blood; that he was a full blood; that his brother obtained allotment No. 3883 on the approved roll by blood, but, while he was enrolled, he did not obtain an allotment. It is possible that the Commission, acting upon this card, believed Martin Wilson to be a Chickasaw freedman, but under the evidence placed before them and a reex- amination of their records, it was their duty to have corrected their former erroneous ruling. Congress then passed an act retroactive in character. The act was passed on April 26, 1906, and this application had been pending at the time of the passage of the act for more than six months before the Department of the Interior in Wash- ington. These helpless minors were legislated out of their clear rights. It is respectfully suggested that the opinion of the Assistant Attorney-General receive the earnest consideration of your honorable committee, together with such recommendation as may be deemed proper therein. Respectfully submitted. Chester Howe, M. M. LiNDLEY, Attorneys for Applicants. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 953 September 28, 1906. The Secretary of the Interior: Sir: I received by reference of January 25, 1906, for opinion thereon, the papers in reference to the petition of Katie Wilson and others to be transferred from the roll of freedmen citizen to that of blood citizen of the Choctaw Nation. The petition was referred to the Commissioner for the Five Civilized Tribes for report, showing fully what confirmation the records of the Commission contain touching its allega- tions. The report of October 31 is of considerable length, but deficient in matters of fact. It states that Katie Wilson appeared personally before the Commission August 30, 1899, and applied for enrollment of herself and children as freedmen and testified that she was born a slav^, and at the outbreak of the rebellion was owned by Sam Colbert, who, it is implied but not stated, was a Choctaw citizen, and that she and her family have always resided in Indian Territory, and the applicants are identified on the 1896 census Choctaw freedmen roll; that the applicants were enrolled by the Commission March 16, 1903, as Choctaw freedmen, and this was approved by the Secretary of the Interior, April 8, 1903, and no allegation or claim was made that they were entitled to any other recognition prior to the filing of the present petition; that the allegation that her application as freedman was made by her hus- band contrary to her expressed wish and not by herself is not substantiated by the records, as they show that she applied in person and that her husband, Martin Wilson, was then dead, and that such name, " supposedly the alleged husband , " appearsonthe 1896 census roll of citizens by blood, but his name thereon "is stamped 'dead,' clearly indicating that he died subsequent to preparation of the 1896 census roll and prior to reception of applications for enrollment by the Commission." That applicants have selected and accepted allotments as freedmen, and patents have been executed for certain of them by the Choctaw authority, but execution by the Chickasaw authority has been withheld pursuant to departmental instructions of August 15, 1905. To others patents were fully executed and delivered without your approval, were returned for approval, have been approved, and are now in charge of the Cfommissioner for delivery. As his conclusion from such facts, the Commissioner states: "The applicants did not, within the time prescribed by the act of Congress, approved July 1, 1902 (32 Stat., 641), ever make any application or assert any rights whatever to enrollment as citizens of the Choctaw Nation, and I very much question my authority and jurisdiction at the present time to consider any application on their behalf for enroll- ment as such citizens. "1 can not believe that it was for the purpose of Congress, and certainly it was never the intention of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, to grant to persons of this charac- ter the right to recognition and em-ollment as citizens of the Choctaw Nation. Waiving the question of application, the petitioners have entirely failed to make a case. The citizenship of the alleged Choctaw Indian, through whom they claim, is not estab- lished. There is no proof whatever of the marriage of the petitioners, Katie Wilson, to her alleged Choctaw husband, Martin Wilson, and the voluntary selection by the petitioners of allotments, seemingly, is a full confirmation of their status as Choctaw freedmen. "I will submit to the Department, in a separate, communication, my views relative to the questions of law involved in this case." The separate communication of views upon the law promised to be sent is not among the papers referred to me, and upon inquiry at the Indian Territory division of your office, I am informally advised that no such paper was received from the Comrois- sioner. The Indian Office expresses no opinion, and merely states its anticipation that, "This case will be finally disposed of under the departmental action m the cases of Joe and Dillard Perry. ' ' There is a brief and argument by applicant's counsel served on counsel for the nation, by registered mail, December 16, 1905, to which no response is made, so that I am unaided by any argument opposed to the contention of law made on behalf of the applicants. All this, however, is immaterial, in view of the provisions of section 4 of the act approved April 26, 1906 (34 Stat., 137), which reads as follows: "That no name shall be transferred from the approved freedmen, or any other approved rolls of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, or Seminole tribes respectively, to the roll of citizens by blood, unless the records in charge of the Com- missioner to the Five Civilized Tribes show that application for enrollment as a citizen by blood was made within the time prescribed by law by or for the party seeking the transfer, and said records shall be conclusive evidence as to the fact of such application, unless it be shown by documentary evidence that the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes actually received such application within the time prescribed by law. ' Under the facts stated by the Commissioner, these applicants come clearly wittim the inhibition of this provision of law, and their request to be transferred can not be 954 3?IVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. granted. It is not claimed in the papers now before me that application for enrollment as a citizen by blood was made within the time prescribed by law by or for any of these persons, nor is there anything to indicate that any of them come within the exception in the law. In other words, there is nothing tending to impugn the correctness of the statement that no such application was made. The law prohibits the transfer of these names, and the application must, for that reason, be denied. It is not intended by this to express any opinion as to the merits of the case or as to what action would have been proper in the absence of a provision like that of the act of April 26, 1906. Very respectfully, > F. L. Campbell, Assistant Attorney-General. Approved September 28, 1906. ■ < Thos. Ryan, Acting Secretary. The Honorable Secretary of the Interior: » In the matter of the application of Harriet Wilson etal. for transfer from the freedmen roll of either the Choctaw or Chickasaw nation of Indians to the roll of Choctaw Indians by blood. STATEMENT. We have the honor to file the same statement in the cases of Harriet Wilson et al. and Katie Wilson et al., for the reason that these women are full sisters, having the same quantum of Indian blood, and were married to brothers, both of whom were Choctaw- Chickasaw Indians, and the facts in both cases are identical, with the sole exception of the number of children, the ages, and the identity of the families. Martin Wilson and John Wilson were full-blood Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians, their mother being a Chickasaw Indian and their father a Choctaw Indian. John Wilson lived long enough to take his allotment, and his number on the roll, as approved, is 3883. His wife, Harriet Wilson, is appointed as administratrix of her husband's estate by the United States court at Atoka, Ind. T., and the children named in the petition are distributees of said estate. Martin Wilson died in 1899, prior to allotment; hence no administration. John Wilson married Harriet Wilson, nee Colbert, in August, 1875. Martin Wilson married Katie Wilson, n6e Colbert, in August, 1877. There was bom of these marriages several children, minors, and the citizenship of the father in either case has never been questioned. At the date of the marriage these women were citizens of the United States, and were legislatively adopted by the Choctaw Nation, they having formerly been Choctaw freedmen in 1883, and the marriages were in conformity with Choctaw law at the date when the marriage contract was entered into. A portion of the minors who were affected by this action were, in 1900, children of tender years, ranging from the babe in arms to those who were nearing maturity. There seems to have been some question as to which tribe these fathers were entitled to em-oll with prior to the appointment of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, and the record indicates that John Wilson was enrolled on Chickasaw tribal roll No. Ill, Pushmatahah district, and was subsequently transferred to the Choctaw roll by the Commission. The right to inspect these rolls for the purpose of setting forth exact facts has been denied, and for this reason there may be an error in the use of the term Choctaw and Chickasaw, but the understanding of the counsel who prepared this petition is that while the fathers had a right to enrollment in either of the tribes, they were finally enrolled as Choctaws. RE QUEST. Based upon the foregoing statement of fact, we respectfully request a reference of this record to the Assistant Attorney-General for an opinion upon the following propositions raised therein: Whether or not the child of a Choctaw or a Chickasaw citizen, born in lawfrJ wedlock is not and was not entitled to enrollment in the nation to which the father belonged, by reason of facts already set forth. Whether or not the enrollment of the father, accompanied by the statement that he is the parent of said children is not notice and application for and on behalf of said children, and is not sufficient to protect their rights, they being minors and incapable of acting on their own behalf. Whether or not there is any distinction between the children of a negro woman, a white woman, an Indian woman of another tribe, a Chinese woman, or person of another nation, before the law, and whether or not such distinction as made is in class FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 955 legislation, and inconsistent with, the treaties between the United States and said Indian tribes, and contrary to the laws of the United States. And following, whether or not the children of any such woman lawfully married and a citizen of the Choctaw-Chickasaw Nation are not entitled by reason of their birth to the allegiance of said nation and to the protection of the Government of the United States, as wards of the Government. Respectfully submitted. M. M. LiNDLY, Chester Howe, Attorneys for Petitioners. AKGTJMENT. In the decision of the case of Joe and Dillard Perry, by opinion of the honorable Assistant Attorney-General, under date of November 11, 1905, approved by the hon- orable Secretary on the same date, it was in substance held that freedmen in the Chickasaw Nation were not citizens, and that the limitation contained in the act of July 2, 1902, which granted three months for the acceptance of the applications of unenrolled citizens, otherwise known as "delinquents," did not apply to them as citizens, but that it was a limitation which prevented the consideration of cases where no applications were filed prior to December 25, or up to and including December 24, 1902. It is our contention that the children of Martin and John "Wilson were at no time freedmen. We believe that they were born to citizenship rights in the Choctaw-Chickasaw country. That their status was fixed by their birth, and at the time of their birth, and that it could not be taken away from them by any act either of omission or com- mission of a United States officer. We further believe that when the father of these children presented himself before the Dawes Commission for enrollment and was enrolled, that it was the duty of the Commission (which we presume they performed) to ascertain from said applicant whether or not he had any children, and, if so, such minor children were, by the act of the enrollment of the father, entitled to enrollment with that father. We further submit that it is a well-known fact, established by all of the reports of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, of the agents, and of the inspectors, that these people were, and are ignorant of the requirements of law. That, as wards of the Government, they are entitled to special consideration as to their rights. Few, if any of them, can read or write. Many of them do not speak English. All of them rely entirely upon the United States officers for the protection of their rights, and to-day those who are enrolled as freedmen, if visited by an officer of this Department, would say to him, as they have said to the attorneys in this case, that it was unnecessary to do anything or take any steps, as the Government would undoubt- edly protect them. This condition is so well known and is the status or condition upon which all legislation for Indians is based, a mere reference to it is sufficient. But it furnishes a basis for consideration, and certainly subjects to proper and legit- imate criticiem the actions of the Commission when it enrolls the minor children of a citizen as anything other than citizens in the nation to which the father belonged. It is true that prior to 1860, in the days when slavery was recognized, the children of a slave woman were slaves. It mattered not what the parentage might have been, and it was equally true that the children of a free woman were free. This rule of descent passed with the institution of slavery. The mother of these children was free, and had she been a white woman, had she been an Indian of another tribe, had she been a citizen of a nation other than the United States, her children, the result of a legal marriage with a citizen of the nation, would have been and were born citizens of the Choctaw-Chickasaw Nation. The Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes has seen fit to deny access to the records in cases of this character, so that counsel are at a loss to state just what the record shows. We are presenting the cases as we best can, in view of this denial. The denial has not been made in this particular case, but it has been made in other cases and, in addition to the denial of the writer to inspect records, the Commissioner refuses to fur- nish certified copies. If it would be proper to inject a complaint into an argument, counsel respectfully complain of this action by the officers of the United States. It does not tend to aid in the administration of justice. Refusal is not based upon per- sonal grounds or objection to attorneys, but it is a settled policy, which is subject, as we view it, to criticism, as being unjust and not in conformity with the rules of courts or of administrative officers exercising judicial powers. 956 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. These people are ignorant. Attorneys are obliged to accept their statements, and many times they do not know the facts. In the case at bar these facts are fully shown. In many cases they are not, but in the case at bar there is some question as to enroll- ment, and this confusion could have been remedied, as well as the question of the claims made by the fathers, at the date when they were enrolled by an inspection of the records. The proposition, however, cleared from all of the incidental questions, is a plain one. It is respectfully submitted that these children were and are entitled to enrollment as citizens of the nation with which their father was enrolled; that the wives are entitled as intermarried citizens; that the officers of the United States Government, by the enrollment of the fathers, had notice of this status; that it is the duty of the officers of the Department of the Interior to correct the former error, and that when all of the circumstances are considered, including the ignorance, the minority, and the con- dition of the applicants at the time the applications were made, it is a privilege which will be exercised by said officers upon the prayer of these petitioners. Respectfully submitted. * M. M. LlNDLY, Chester Howe, Attorneys for petitioners. United States op America, District of Columbia, ss: " Chester Howe, being duly sworn according to law, on oath states: I am one of the attorneys for the petitioners in the foregoing petition; that said petition is filed in good faith, and not for the purpose of delay; that a true and correct copy of the same has been served upon Messrs. Mansfield, McMurray & Cornish, by for- warding the same to them at their present post-office address. South McAlester, Ind. T., registry receipt for which is hereunto attached. Chester Howe. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the day of December, 190-5. A. H. Parsons, Notary Public, District of Columbia. STATEMENT OF JACOB B. JACKSON. The Chairman. Where do you live ? Mr. Jackson. I live near Shady Point, Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory. The Chairman. What is your nationahty by blood? Mr. Jackson. I am a Choctaw Indian. The Chairman. Full blood? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And your age is what ? Mr. Jackson. I am going on 62 now. The Chairman. You may proceed to make such statement as you desire. Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am glad to have the pleasure of meeting you and the opportunity to say a few words to you in behalf of the people that I represent. Of course I will not say much, as your time is very short. I will say only a few words, and after saying those few words I will present a paper so that you may consider the matter hereafter. Gentlemen, what you call the Indian questions are great questions in this country and will continue to be great both before the people out here and before the Government at Washington. This land question is a question that has troubled the minds of the people of my nation; and they are in trouble to-day. What makes the trouble? Why, it is because of this allotment. I am satisfied that when this allotment is completed it is going to be a great trouble in this country, and we are satisfied that it will be a great trouble to the Government of the United States and the Members of Congress of the United FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 957 States. When I was last in Washington City, I had interviews with . quite a number of Congressmen and explained my views, and when this allotment question is settled they will be satisfied that I was right, because I know what is called the Indian question, and I ought to know it, as I made it my duty to study it. 1 understand it and I know the sentiment of the Indian people, especially the full bloods, as I am representing the full-blood element. I take a great interest in myfellow-citizens. When this question of allotment came up, I made a public talk all over the country to the effect that I was opposed to it. I was against allotment, because whenever it is completed it is going to place the full bloods in a particularly bad condition. Now, here we are, in it, and in trouble. You have no idea of the extent of that trouble. If you understood the sentiments of the full-blood element as well as I do, I am satisfied that you would have a sad feeling about it, just as there is a sad feeling among the Indians themselves. I have talked with the full blood-element every day; and whenever the question of allotment came up they talked to me freely and asked me about it, and I told my people what is going to be the conse- quence and what trouble we are going to have. The Chairman. The allotment matter is settled, and your trouble has come, as you say, and there is a good deal of trouble. What the committee wants is your view and the view of those who are with you as to the proper thing to be done now, in view of all that trouble. Mr. Jackson. I am coming to that point now, sir. Our Indians are getting their allotments, but they are not satisfied with this allot- ment movement in this country. I hope you will hear what the full-blood element of Indians think about it. Of course some people get dissatisfied and try their best to get the Government to settle their dissatisfaction. The Indians are getting their allotments, but they have not got the deeds yet. Just as soon as we get the deeds or patents, the white people will be anxious to buy the land from the Indians, and they are going to buy it. On the question of restrictions, some favor the removal of the restrictions and some are against removal, and some again believe that the removals ought to be modified. It is for you Members of Congress to settle it. Senator Long. What do you think about it? Mr. Jackson. Well, it is a very ticklish business. (Laughter.) I do not care how you settle the matter of restrictions, the Indians are goinw to be in bad condition anyway. If you remove the restrictions, the Indians are going to be worse than ever, and if you do not remove them it will be pretty much the same. (Laughter.) _ Senator Long. What'would happen if we just modify the restric- tions? Mr. Jackson. That might be a little better, but I do not know. Gentlemen, I am a citizen of the United States to-day; is not that so ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Jackson. If I am a citizen of the United States, why should I be treated as if I were not a citizen? If I am a citizen of the United States, it looks like I ought to be treated just the same as the white people are treated. Yet you say ' ' You are a citizen, but you shall not sell the land," 958 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Teller. Do you want to sell your land ? Mr. Jackson. I do not say that I want to sell. For my part, I do not care much about selling my land, because I make my living on it. What land I have I use. I have a farm. So for my part I do not care much about selling my land. The Chairman. Will you not give us your view as to what should be done in this matter of restrictions? Mr. Jackson. As I said, I do not know how to get at it, how to express my view on that point. The Chairman. But you have views on that point, have you not ? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you not willing to give the committee the benefit of your views and the views of those who think with you as to that matter of removing the restrictions? It will not do much good to talk unless we arrive at some conclusion. Mr. Jackson. If you remove the restrictions it would be good to enable the Indians to develop their property, but just as soon as the restrictions are removed these land buyers are going to buy the lands from the Indians at ridiculous prices. The Chairman. The Indian can not keep his land and sell it too. Of course if he sells his land he will sell it in the market for whatever it will bring. The question we want to ask you is, Do you believe it better for the full-blood Indian to be allowed to sell his land, or not, all things considered, from the Indian's standpoint? Mr. Jackson. Why not carry out the Atoka treaty? The Chairman. Is that what you advocate? Mr. Jackson. It seems to me it would be better to comply with that and carry out the Atoka treaty. The Indians might have a surplus to sell but that should be the end of'it. Of course they can not sell their homesteads. If you carry out the Atoka treaty we can then sell the surplus land. The Chairman. In your opinion the best policy for the Indian is expressed in the Atoka agreement? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. Here is a point I wish to mention. If we have the chance to sell the land, there is one thing I am afraid of. The Indians are going to keep on, selling, selling, and these other people — the white people — are going to keep on wanting to buy the land, and the Indians will in a few years have sold everything and will have no land. It will be the same thing with the homestead, I believe, after a while. Now here is a State going to be organized, the State of Oklahoma. When that comes everything is going to be changed. After that the United States Congress will have no power and everything will have to be settled here. The State government will have to regulate everything about the land. If that is to be the condition, we are not pleased with the movement. Our people have always had their own laws and their own government and had every- thing to suit themselves. That is the best way for the Indians and they like it best. I was in Washington City in 1896 and when the Indian question was discussed I heard everything. Mr. Pettigrew was then chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. I heard several speeches made. It was said that this Indian govern- ment was going to be abolished and I said if that is going to be the case we might just as well sell out our lands to the white people and get out ; go to some other country. We can find some other country FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 959 and buy land there and settle it to suit our people. That was the talk I made just as soon as I came back from Washington. Senator Teller. Is that what you want to do? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Why do you not do it? Mr. Jackson. Why, I am depending on you, Mr. Senator. The Chairman. How are you going to sell this land unless the restrictions are removed ? You have taken your land as an allotment. Mr. Jackson. Yes. The Chairman. How do you expect to sell your land and remove somewhere else unless the restrictions are removed ? Mr. Jackson. We are asking you to pass an act so that we can, remove. Senator Long. So that you can sell everything ? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir; that is all we ask. Senator Long. How many people do you represent ? Mr. Jackson. Several years ago we counted 5,000. Senator Long. Five thousand that wanted to sell out here and go somewhere else? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Have you made any arrangements to move ? Mr. Jackson. No. We have been waiting for Congress to remove the restrictions. We asked Congress to do that for us. We are not working against the interests of the United States people or the white feople, but are working for the interest of our own people — the ndians. Senator Long. Where do you intend to go.? Mr. Jackson. Anywhere where we can find a country. If we can find a country to suit us in Mexico, we will go there. The Chairman. You want to go to some country where you can maintain the community form of government ? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. I have had some understanding with the Mexican Government. I have had some correspondence about it. That Government has no objection to the Indians coming into that country. If we see the country and like it and are satisfied, of course we will be satisfied to go there. If not, we are willing to go elsewhere — to South America, maybe. Our people are not satisfied. For this reason we took this idea, and we ask the Members of Congress to remove our restrictions so that we can make arrangements with some other government, probably the Mexican Government, and then we can settle up everything and go. We do not propose to make the people go whether they want to or not, but just leave the matter with the people. If they want to go, we will want them to go. Senator Teller. Where are the people that wantto go? Mr. Jackson. In the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. Senator Teller. How many of them do you think there are who would be willing to go ? Mr. Jackson. We would have to take a census of them that are willing to go. Senator Teller. Do you know any of them that are willing to go? Mr. Jackson. Yes. Senator Teller. Do you think you want to go yourself? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir; I am the father of the movement. 960 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Long. You could not very well get out of it. If we remove your restrictions you would have to go ? [Laughter.] Mr. Jackson. Yes. Senator Teller. I do not believe you would go very far. Mr. Jackson. Oh, yes. Senator Teller. You would change yovu" mind. Mr. Jackson. I have not changed it since 1889. Senator Clark, of Montana, "niere are some Kickapoos that went over to Mexico from this region. Mr. Jackson. I suppose so; I do not know very much about that. Senator Teller. They are not having a very good time over there, J believe. Senator Long. The father of that movement got into jail over there. Mr. Jackson. Well, that is what they say; but somebody else ought to be in jail. The Chairman. You said you had a paper that you wanted to present ? Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You may present it now. The paper is as follows : To the honorable the Select Committee of the United States Senate on Affairs in Indian Territory: We, the undersigned committee of the full-blood Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians, respectfully represent: That we are a duly selected committee of full-blood Indians, chosen at two meet- ings of the full bloods of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations of Indians called and held in conformity with the custom of said Indians, and that we are empowered to speak for and represent about 2,000 persons of the full bloods. That the people whom we represent have at all times opposed the allotment of lands or the division of tribal funds, not because they desired to interfere with the wishes of the Government of the United States, but because they realized, as they now know, that the allotment of lands and the distribution of tribal funds and the acceptance of a complete United States citizenship meant the extinction of the Choctaw race as a people, the loss of identity as a nation — the end of the Indian as an Indian. That the people represented by your committee opposed the ratification of all treaties lookmg toward the doing away of tribal government, not that they were officers of the national government of the Choctaws or Chickasaws, for their people have steadfastly opposed the election of men who have been in power for many years, but because it was a form of government to which they were born, made sacred by tradition and custom; that they understood it, and they do not understand the new relationship, social and political, which has been bestowed upon them. That the condition of the full-blood Indian in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations is such as should appeal to the Congress of the United States, he being in every sense a ward of the nation, even though his individual rights are protected through citi- zenship conferred upon him. Our people do not understand and can not live in the organized societies familiar to the whites. We have not been accustomed to being limited in our holdings or the use of lands. Our stock has been permitted to graze or pasture upon the public lands of the nation. We have had the right to move from one portion of the country to the other, and through choice have withdrawn from the large settlements and from that portion of the country which was occupied by white men. We have main- tained our government, as we see it, in the proper manner, and the relations of our people have been those of Indians holding lands in common and property in common. With the organization of counties and townships, with the sale and the leasing of lands to whites, with the placing of our personal liberties in the courts of the white men and the distribution of estates of those who die in the white courts, the guardian- ship of our children in the hands of white men, because the full-blood Indian can not give bond nor speak the language of the court, without inability to talk English or transact business except through interpretation, with a payment of our moneys to us in such a way that it will be of no value to our people in fact — with these changes FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 961 all certai'n to come and present before us for consideration, we have held meetings, discussed the situation, and arrived at the unanimous conclusion that our committee shall pray for relief and protection to the President, our great father, and to Congress. Under present conditions the full blood-people have been granted as personal hold- ings or allotments large tracts of land. The allotment is 320 acres of land of average value. Owing to the character of the land where we have established our residence, this is in many cases a tract of land of as much as 1,000 acres each. For a family of 5 persons this meaiis 5,000 acres. Our people have no money to fence this land, no teams to cultivate it, no experience in farming, and no ability to handle it in any way. They are the class of people who have resisted and opposed the inroads of the whites. They do not desire to lease their holdings to white men and thus estab- lish another white community among their own people, yet this seems to be the sole and only source of income they can have, and they are prohibited from doing this in any reasonable manner. They can not sell it. They can not earn a living on it. In the years which are passed they had credit, but under existing laws they have no prospect of being able to pay, and the men who were their friends and gave them credit in the past will no longer do so. New men, not understanding our people, have entered the country. Towns have been built within the limits of the country in which the title has passed from the Indian. If any of our people are without flour or food they are obliged to mortgage their few ponies or cows, and then they lose them. If they turn them out to pasture they are taken up for damages, and the Indian can not get justice in the white man's court. When an Indian dies his heirs will have to employ a lawyer in a white man's court, and they do not understand it, and he is at the mercy of the inter- preter, or some man who does not speak his language. We do not know what to do. We are helpless. We have lost our country and our government. We have always been the friends of the United States Government. From the beginning of the history of our people, at no time have the Choctaws and Chickasaws been at war with the United States. We helped the troops under General Jackson. We refused to take up arms with the Creeks. We sent Tecumseh back to his own people, and yet, less than 100 years after, the white man has taken all we have and left us little land which is of any use to us. When we came to the Choctaw country in the West we made it a crime for any man to offer to sell our lands. It was a law of the Choctaw Nation that any man who offered to sell a foot of the ground given us by the Government and guaranteed to us " As long as grass grew and water ran," should be punished by death. Yet, in spite of this law, just as binding as any other law passed, the country has been sold. It is no longer ours, and while the United States guaranteed to our people that they should never be included in the limits of a State, we are now included in the new State of Oklahoma, and we are made citizens of the United States by arbitrary enactment, without our consent and without our desire, and, as far as our people are concerned, over our protest registered by our votes. Under these circumstances the committee of the full bloods respectfully petition for relief. We desire, by some proper method, to be settled by conference, or in the wis- dom of Congress, a right and an opportunity to close our estates and our affairs in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations of the Indian Territory, and to select homes else- where. Surely a race of people, desiring to preserve the integrity of that race, who love it by reason of its traditions and their common ancestors and blood, who are proud of the fact that they belong to it may be permitted to protect themselves, if in no other way by emigration. Our educated people inform us that the white man came to this country to avoid conditions which to him were not as bad as the present conditions are to us; that he went across the great ocean and sought new homes in order to avoid things which to him were distasteful and wrong. All we ask is that we may be per- mitted to exercise the same privilege. We do not ask any aid from the Government of the United States in so doing. We do ask that we may be permitted, m a proper way, by protecting our own, to dispose of that which the Government says is ours, and which has been given us over our protest against the distribution, to the end that another home may be furnished, and another nation established. In this petition we direct your attention to the fact that this movement is animated by no white man; that it has originated and is to be carried out by our Indian com- mittee; that with the exception of some friends whom we have employed, and m whom we have faith and trust, no one in the Indian Territory has known of the fact that this petition would be submitted. Our plans are to protect every one of our people against the greed of the white man if possible. We must trust the court. We have no other place in which we can put trust. Our people have conferred for weeks over this matter. It is the result of years of thought, which began at the time of the Atoka agree- ment. We have believed that if we united, if we asked for relief as a people, it would S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 62 962 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. be granted. The time has not come when we make this request. We desire the right to submit the plans which the Indians have made to the full committee of the Senate, and to explain it to the select committee, so that it may be understood, and to ask the aid of the Government as a matter of right for an abandoned people who feel that they have been greatly wronged by their own people and by the white man. With the Indian people, the air we breathed, the water we drank, and the land we lived upon were held in common, and each man had all he used. With the white man, the land is not held in common, the water is shut off from our cattle, and we are left only the air we breathe. We have organized a committee and are preparing a plan, which we hope will be acceptable to the Congress of the United States, under which we propose that our estates and the estates of our people who so elect may be converted into money and that money expended in the purchase of a home to which we may emigrate. We ask con- sideration of this prayer for these reasons: First, it is our desire, and we make the request with a full knowledge of its importance, both to us and to our children. Second, we believe, if it were known, it would be the desire of the white man. He does not wSnt the Indian any more than we want him, and by carrying out this plan he will get that which he wants — the Indian land. We will leave and trouble him no longer. Third, it is right — it is just. Over our protest a majority, or what is said to be a majority, of voters approved an agreement with the United States changing our social, political, and personal conditions. There is nothing left for us to do but accept conditions as they are. There is no remedy for us except removal. If the Choctaw and Chickasaw people as a whole were willing to lose their racial status, to become by a slow process of blood mixture, and through changed conditions, white men in fact, or if a large portion of the Choctaw people do so elect, we do not oppose the carrying out of their desires; but, in addition to the reasons given, we believe that the Great Father of all men created the Indian to fill a proper place in this world. That as an Indian he had certain rights, among which is a right to exist as a race, and that in the protection of that right, it is our belief that we are fulfilling the purpose of the Divine Creator of mankind. Eespectfully submitted. Jacob B. Jackson. j. c. folsom. . S. E. GoE. Saul Foj.som. Willis (his x mark) Jones. STATEMENT OF MB. J. FLETCHER MORRIS. Mr. Howe. Mr. Morris represents a freedmen's association, and I introduce him to you, gentlemen of the committee, so that he may have an opportunity of having the memorial of the association printed. He is the president of the association. Senator Long (taking up a pamphlet) . Is this their petition ? Mr. Howe. That is tneir petition and memorial. The Chairman. Is this something you want to file with the committee ? Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; and I would like to say something about it and not read the whole pamphlet at this time. (The memorial follows Mr. Morris's statement.) The Chairman. If you have anything to say, please make it as brief as possible. Mr. Morris. With reference to the matter of the enrollment of minor children of the Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen, the act of Congress known as the Curtis bill made no provision, but the appropriation bill did. The freedmen, however, had only eight days to enroll their children in this country, while the other people had ninety days. We do not think that that was a fair act, and we ask for additional time in that matter. In the removal of restrictions in general we do not agree, but in case a measure is passed into legislation we ask for the opportunity of making personal application. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 963 Tke Chairman. The same as it is at present ? Mr. Morris. Yes. And as to coal land, a number of us have our land improved, and we would like to have the right to buy the same if it becomes salable. We have homes, farms, etc., there, and would like to be able to buy more. We simply ask your honorable com- mittee to consider our matter, and of course we believe you will give us justice. The Chairman. How many freedmen are on that segregated land who have made original improvements there? Mr. Morris. I do not know the number, but I know some. The Chairman. Are they still living there? Mr. Morris. Yes; some of them are. The Chairman. And what you want is a preference right to pur- chase if the surface is sold? Mr. Morris. Yes, sir. Mr. Howe. In explanation of the reference by Mr. Morris to the "eight days," I would say that the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes did not issue any notice that the freedmen children should be enrolled at the time that they issued the notices. A case was brought and decided, but was not decided until eight days before the expiration of the ninety days allowed under the act. I wired the fact down here, and in eight days they got together and filed applications for about 600. There are about 400 that they could not reach in eight days. The law, however, was mandatory, that all applications of that character should be filed within ninety days. Senator Teller. The Commissioners did not give any notice to the people? Mr. Howe. No. Senator Teller. Did the court decide that they were included ? Mr. Howe. The Secretary of the Interior did. The decision was received, and we did all the rushing that we could exercise in the matter; but where no notice had been issued and no possibility of getting it in time they could not get the people in here in a few days. Senator Teller. Did not the law give to them just as much time as to others, if it had not been for the controversy ? Mr. Howe. Yes; if the Government officials had permitted. Over the doors of the office was a notice that Choctaw and Chickasaw people need not apply. We had to get a telegraphic order to the Commissioner of the Five Civilized Tribes to receive those apphca- tions before they would be received. That order was from the Secretary. The Chairman. They construed the law not to apply ? Mr. Howe. Yes. The Chairman. And eight days before the expiration of the ninety the law was construed by the Department to apply ? Mr. Howe. Yes. It was held that it did apply to the Choctaws. They had just eight days, then, of notice by telegraph of that order. It was a telegraphic order. There was no possibility ^of getting in the full number, and under those circumstances there has been an inequality worked. These men ask an extension of the time. Senator Teller. I think we understand it. The Chairman. Yes. The memorial presented by Mr. Morris is as follows: 964 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Ebsolution and Memorial op- Choctaw and Chickasaw Febedmen Association TO THE Senate Committee. KBSOLIITION. Resolved, That it is the sense of this convention, the same being a delegate conven- tion of the Choctaw and Chiclcasaw freedmen of the Indian Territory, that a committee of seven be appointed by the president of this convention for the purpose of drafting a memorial to be presented to the Senate committee that shall visit the Indian Terri- tory in November next, and that the president of this committee shall be one of said committee and chairman of same. That said committee shall be authorized to incorporate in said memorial the follow- ing propositions: First. A request for additional time for the enrollment of freedmen children and full protection for the same. Second. A request for the removal of restrictions, either on personal application or safeguarded against taxation before sale. Third. An indorsement of the proposition presented, or about to be presented, by the delegates from the various towns as to segregated coal land, to the effect that actual settlers and owners of improvements thereon shall have a prior right to purchase the same; be it further Resolved, That Chester Howe, of Washington, D. C, who has been of counsel in the Ethel Pierson case, be requested to act as adviser to this committee. The foregoing resolution was offered by J. Fletcher Morris. On motion made by William Seitz, seconded by D. K. Person, and put by Mr. Edward Colbert, chairman pro tern, the same was unanimously adopted South McAlester, Ind. T., this the 20th day of October, 1906. J. Fletcher Morris, President. Attest: Wm. Justice, Secretary. memorial. To the honorable the Select Committee of the Senate Committee of Indian A/fairs: We, the undersigned, committee of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Freedmen Griev- ance Association, "respectfully represent: That your petitioners are the delegates duly chosen by the actual representatives of over two thousand freedmen in the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nation, on the 20th day' of October, A. D. 1906, and they believe represent the desires and wishes of a large majority of the freedmen of said nation. That they were instructed by said convention to present to the honorable Select Committee of the Senate the wishes of their people, to be embodied in a memorial, and that the following statements express the desires of said convention: First. Your petitioners request that the committee recommend suitable legislation to secure to the minors born to the Choctaws and Chickasaw freedmen the same rights granted to the minors of citizens in the allowance of an allotment where children were born after September 25, 1902, the same being in direct line with the legislation during the last session of Congress and the holding of the Assistant Attorney-General in the case of Ethel Pierson, it being a fact that, owing to a mistake of the' Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, no notice was published, and he, the said Commissioner, refused to accept the applications until the last eight days of the ninety days allowed by law, and therefore several hundred minors of tender years were and are denied their legal rights, and we call attention to the fact that for fifty-two days over the door where applications were received in Muskogee there was a notice to the effect that Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen minors could not apply. Second. We respectfully ask for legislation providing that the restrictions upon the alienation of all lands of adult freedmen in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations be removed upon application and that said lands shall become subject to taxation when sold or mortgaged. In support of this your committee respectfully directs attention to the following facts: The Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen, in common with other freedmen of the United States, were, prior to the war, slaves, but the condition of bondage with the' Indian people was less rigorous than with the whites, and more nearly approached a plane of equality. There was therefore a larger percentage of educated freedmen in the nation than could be found in the plantation districts of the South, it being true that the house servants and many others were allowed the privilege of the Indian schools which were established. Since emancipation, during which time another generation has grown, the freed- men of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations have been secure in the use of land for cultivation, in the erection of permanent homes, and have never occupied a position FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 965 of servile poverty. They have at all times sought the privileges of schools and an opportunity to educate their children, and they believe without question that, in point of intelligence, of distribution of property, and of morals, that no community of the United States containing an equal number of persons of African blood can make an equal showing with themselves. The lands which they received were given them as an act of justice on the part of both the United States and the nations, but they were not transferred to them because they had been in the past a semidependent people; they were not given them because they were by blood and tradition and the wards of the nation, and they believe that the policy of prohibiting the handling of their property by placing them on a par with the full-blood Indian is incorrect in principle and wrong in fact. The full-blood Indian, in many cases, does not speak the English language. Every one of your petitioners speaks the English language and none other. Nearly all of your petitioners, and particularly all of the last generation, read and write and have fair educations. Those who have not accumulated property are what might be termed "land poor." They are unable to cultivate the land they have, because they do not possess agricultural implements and teams and the necessary means of procedure with farm cultivation. The average freedman family is large, consisting of from five to nine persons, including father and mother. Each person receives 40 acres of aver- age value land, which may be as much as several hundred acres to each person of the cheaper grade lands. A family of five persons frequently has a holding of as much as 400 acres of good land, while the larger families have more. It is impossible for the head of the family to either put his own land under cultivation or that of his wife or children where he is without means and the necessary teams and farm imple- ments to properly cultivate the same. These lands, taken since the passage of the act of Congress, are without fence or improvements, except in a very few instances, and then in very small tracts. There is no way by which they can obtain these except by the borrowing of small sums of money or the selling of a small tract of land. Those who possess the necessary property to proceed with cultivation do not need this privi- lege and will not exercise it. Those who do will benefit themselves and the commu- nity at large by reducing the balance of their lands to cultivation. Your petitioners further represent that the Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen understand as fully as any people the necessity of retaining title to their lands; that they do not believe that there will be any willful or improper waste of the proceeds, with the bare exception of the fact that it is impossible in a community not to find some few who will not be thrifty. That their reason for requesting a clause providing that taxes shall not be levied until the sale or mortgage of the land arises from the fact that in this new country all of the land subject to taxation will-probably be heavily taxed, owing to the fact that but a small proportion will be subject for several years, and they feel that in request- ing this action on the part of Congress there should be a saving clause continuing the present status as to taxation, except where the land is either sold or mortgaged. Those who sell do not care about the tax, because the buyers will pay that. Those who mortgage will have the necessary means. This legislation without this saving clause might force sales, on account of the tax, when the parties do not desire to make them. We believe the foregoing represents the desires of our people in this regard. We further direct your attention to the fact that this saves and conserves the estates of the minors until they are 21 years of age, at which time they, in cornmon with other American citizens, can assume the responsibilities incident to that citizenship, unham- pered by restrictions, which are not in accordance with the policies of this Government. Third. We indorse the proposition of disposing of the surface of the segregated coal lands, and the same has been presented to your committee by the delegates from the towns on the various coal fields, requesting that the surface of these lands be sold in small tracts to the rightful owners of substantial improvements thereon or to actual settlers thereon, giving to said settlers or owners a preference right of purchase, it being a fact that a number of our people had established homes on lands which were subsequently segregated. These homes are dear to them from long association. The ownership of the surface will not interfere with the use of the coal, and the lands would otherwise remain unproductive and unused. To allow these places to go back to natural conditions is a waste of labor uncalled for by conditions, benefiting no one, and must result in a loss either to individuals or to the community at large, or to both. Respectfully submitted. J. Fletcher Morris. Wesley McKinney. A. J. Johnson. Wm. Glover. Wm. Seitz. Edmond Colbert. 966 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. SUPPLEMENT TO THE EOEEGOING MEMORIAL. We are opposed to the removal of restrictions in general; but, if the Congress thinks best in its wise judgment, we ask for our people that the same be done on personal application, as is done in the case of Indians by blood. STATEMENT OF MB. WESLEY McKINNEY. The Chairman. Where do you Hve ? Mr. McKiNNEY. I Hve at Buffalo. The Chairman. Are you a Choctaw freedman ? Mr. McKiNNEY. Yes, sir. I want to make a statement about the class of people that applied for the $100. The Chairman. To what class of people do you refer ? Mr. McKiNNEY. Freedmen. The Chairman (to 'Mr. Chester Howe). Do you know anything about this, Mr. Howe? Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. The Choctaws, after 1866, gave to the freedmen, under their agreement with the United States, a right to the use of 40 acres of land or $100 in money, with the understanding that the $100 in money settled all their rights in and to this country. They had the right of election as to the acceptance of the $100. This delegate states that there are 30 or 40 freedmen — they claim to be nothing but freedmen — who elected to receive the $100 and were placed on the list, but were never paid the $100, though their names were on the list and they were denied enrollment as freedmen or as entitled to any land, and so have had neither land nor money, and occupy the position of any ordinary men of colored blood in this country, although they are properly classed as freedmen. The Chairman. Where was this list kept? Mr. McKiNNEY. I guess the Dawes Commission kept it. The Chairman. Have you, or those like you, applied to the Dawes Commission ? Mr. McKiNNEY. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I mean lately? Mr. McKiNNEY. No, sir; not lately. The Chairman. Have you applied to the Dawes Commission since the list was made for what you consider your rights ? Mr. McKiNNEY. Yes. The Chairman. When did you apply ? Mr. McKiNNEY. At the time the freedmen' s roll was being made up, and since then. We sent it in to Washington. Mr. Howe. There has been a decision to the effect that where they took the $100 they had not any right. Mr. McMuRRAY. As to the question of taking the $100, the proof is all in the records at Washington. The Government paid out the money, and all the proof that the Commission had came out of the Department. Wesley is not one of those people. You do not claim to be one of them? Mr. McKiNNEY. No, sir. The Chairman. I understand that some of them got neither the $100 nor anything else? Mr. McMuRRAY. Those that are denied are those as to whom the records at Washington show that they received the $100. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 967 Mr. McKiNNEY. No, sir; they did not. The Chairman. This matter is so compHcated that I think you will have to present it in writing. Mr. McKiNNEY. It is in the Choctaw writing. The Chairman. We can not go into it now, as we do not know anything about it, and we have no basis for considering it. Mr. McKiNNEY. If Captain McKennon was here he would know. Senator Teller. He would not know whether these men have been paid or not. Mr. McKiNNEY. But it will be found on the record whether they have been paid. Senator Teller. You had better get this matter up in writing. The Chairman. That is the only way it can be considered now. A Voice. We wanted a little time to present some matters regarding the freedmen. The Chairman. You have had two evening sessions for talking over the grievances of the freedmen with the Choctaw people. For two evenings they were represented at Muskogee, and we do not think we can give any more time to that matter. Senator Teller. You can put in writing anything you like. The Chairman. Yes; put anything you please in writing, and it will go into the record as if you had put it in orally. Mr. Howe. Mr. James O. Pool, here, has just directed my atten- tion to a matter. The Chairman. I have promised him that if time permitted we would hear him. Mr. Howe. I did not know that. STATEMENT OF DR. ELIPHALET N. WRIGHT. The Chairman. State your post-office address. Doctor Wright. Olney, Ind. T. Senator Long. State your business and whom you represent. Doctor Wright. I am simply one of a delegation appointed at a convention of citizens, other than officials of the Choctaw and Chick- asaw nations, to represent their views before this committee as to the windiiTg up of affairs in this country. Senator Long. Where was this convention held? Doctor Wright. At Coalgate. Senator Long. When? Doctor Wright. On the 12th of this month. I will file with the committee a copy of our memorial. They asked me to be spokesman. Senator Clark, of Montana. How many people were at the con- vention? Doctor Wright. I do not remember. Our people were repre- sented at it by delegations. They were all delegates sent from different parts. It is hard to get a convention of all the people. Senator Clark, of Montana. There were delegations from different parts ? Doctor Wright. Yes; some Chickasaws and some Choctaws. To begin with, in order that the record may show, we have in our memo- rial a protest against a late decision as to the freedmen's enrollment — that is, a transferring of the freedmen, enrolled as freedmen, from 968 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. the freedmen roll to the Choctaw and Chickasaw rolls. The attor- neys for the nation made their argument to-day, and I desire just to add one word in addition to the arguments made by Mr. Cormsh. In our convention we discussed this freely, and we felt, in addition to the injustice that would be put upon our people by allowing this additional allotment and putting this expense upon us, that it would be mixing, by law, the two races, and would put a cloud upon the Indian people, and we protest against any such action. In addition to the thousands of dollars that would be involved in the original proposition, the expense that would be imposed upon the Choctaws and Chickasaws as a nation would be very great. When this matter was brought up in the Congress, and on reading the record, we consid- ered it a new kind of graft. I have an employee, one of the descend- ants of the slaves held by the Choctaws, who told me that they had signed a contract for $500 to get their names on the roll. If that is the case you can see where the money is going to. We are being robbed in order that people other than the negroes may get the money. Now, Mr. Chairman, the remainder of my remarks will be applied strictly to the coal question, and that necessarily brings up the ques- tion of restrictions. We have been here patiently waiting for two days, and I am glad that we have heard the different arguments. All day to-day you have heard from the official element of the Choc- taw Nation, and I believe that I can say without contradictionthat, speaking simply as a citizen, I voice the sentiments of a large majority of the citizens of this country when I say that we are opposed to a great many of the propositions of the officials. As far as I have been able to see to-day, most of their contentions have been against the Department, and I desire to go on record in a plain statement that the Choctaw and Chickasaw people, notwithstanding the remarks of the gentlemen on the other side, feel that in the Secretary of the Interior they have a friend who has been in reality a friend to them. The coal proposition is to us the most important. Our convention met last at a time when our officials were not acting as we thought for the best interests of our people. A great many of our citizens had homes on this segregated land. A convention was called and a dele- gation sent to Washington to ask for relief. The matter was placed before the Senate, and of course you know the result. There were long discussions, pro and con, by the Senators, and I heard a good deal of those discussions, and I can say that as far as the Senate is concerned its members are earnest in their efforts to settle this mat- ter properly and with absolute justice to the Choctaws and Chickasaws. The question to-day brought up by the officials as to the manner of selling and disposing of this property is not made with our approval. We, as citizens, have a little suspicion when they suggest that these coal lands should be sold in a body. As citizens of this country we have, as you well know, for the last few years been up against some pretty hard propositions — contracts. Notwithstanding, I will admit, as a citizen, that the attorneys' work in this citizenship case was very important to us, but the circumstances whereby a million and a half dollars attempted to be expended (but which was cut down to $750,000) was a very expensive experiment to us as a people. And when they suggest that they prefer to sell this coal in a Dody to some private individual, we, as citizens, look back and remember that not FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 969 long ago a suggestion was made that it could be sold, a proposition that had a 10 per cent deal in it for selling it. Of course we look with suspicion on that proposition. Mr. Cornish, to-day, upon this floor, attempted to claim that at that time the Department had been unjust in its decisions, or its estimates, of the value of our property; that not more than a year ago the same officials who represented the Choctaws and Chickasaws offered, as I understand, to sell this prop- erty for $15,000,000. Mr. Cameron's estimate is $71,000,000, as I understand. Our memorial (and I think it is the first on record to-night), although not definite, comes within the range of $20,000,000. We say in our memorial that we believe the value of this property is some $30,000,000 to $50,000,000. Personally, that may not be, would not be, my view. I have to submit to the majority opinion. I have my views and my ways of figuring out the estimate of what we should receive and what would be justice to us. I will state as to another contention, that, by what we have heard to-day from the officials, they make a concession of suspension of payment of Indian funds. As a citizen of this country, I wish to state that I believe that I voice the majority of sentiment among the people that it was a pretty good move on the part of the Secretary, and would tend niore to hasten development of affairs than any other action. Last year (I think the records will bear me out) while we were endeavoring to persuade Congress to settle this whole proposi- tion, looking to the sale of the surface and also the coal, the council was in session from October until March — five months, taking a recess — and about the only thing that I have seen was a memorial to Congress asking that a park, a game park, be sold to some man in Texas. The Choctaw people last winter were suffering. That can be shown by evidence. Yet $25,000 to $40,000 were being paid to men for sitting in the council halls and doing nothing. Objection was made by the citizens of this country to that action. The Secretary investi- gated it, found it the truth, and acted accordingly. I think you will find that that is correct. I believe, personally, that attorneys working in behalf of the Choc- taw people should receive their pay. I wish to go on record also to the effect that the principal chief of our nation, inasmuch as he is supposed to act as our principal chief until matters are wound up, should receive his pay, and I also say that the coal officials should receive their pay, but when it comes to the balance, I think that the Curtis bill wound up our government. We had no more courts, no use for judges, sheriffs, etc., and I believe that you will find the Secretary well borne out in his action, notwithstanding the contention of other people. Now, m reference to coal: In our memorial we ask that the sur- face be sold separate and apart from the mineral, and that the mineral be sold for the use and benefit of the new State as a school fund. In making that suggestion we take the position that by coopera- tion (and we beHeve that the Senate would consider the proposition fairly) the Government, by making an addition to what has already been appropriated for school purposes, could pay to us the value of our coal. As to the surface, the people could wait for four years 970 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The Chairman. Is it your proposition that the Government should pay the value of the coal ? Doctor Weight. Either the Government pay for it, or allow the State to bond itself for it ; some such proposition. The Chaikman. Of course, you understand that it would be of no use to ask the Government of the United States to purchase it. Doctor Wright. I understand that contention, but the difficulty is now that it will not do to delay the settlement of this proposition. If I wanted to delay the settlement I would take the position of the attorneys on the part of the Government this morning, and that is for a sale to a syndicate or corporation. The Chairman. I was going to ask how you were going to get this money into your school fund ? Doctor Wright. The Choctaw people want their money. You give the Choctaw citizen his money and then you can remove his restrictions with impunity. But remove his restrictions without a settlement and you are simply turning him loose in a worse con- dition. You are adding to the difficulty. If the State of Oklahoma could, with the assistance of Congress, add to the $5,000,000 already appropriated, sufficient to pay for the coal, and let it pass to the State as a school fund, let that money be divided and let the citizen have his restrictions removed . I think that that would be the quickest solution you could obtain. And as for the surface, and the matter of realizing the highest value for it, I think that selling it in small lots to actual settlers, giving them three to four years in which to pay the whole amount, is the plan that will give the highest returns. We have had personal experience in that line from the sale of lots. We believe that by that form of disposal the surface land would bring more than the coal company's offer for coal and surface together. Senator Teller. What did they offer ? Doctor Wright. I think the aggregate was about 13,000,000. The Chairman. That was only for a portion of the segregated area? Doctor Wright. For the part that they wished to buy. The Chairman. Yes. Doctor Wright. We believe that this proposition is the best from all points of view. We believe that it would result in the loca- tion of new towns. There are thousands of people who already have improvements on parts of this property who would be willing to pay handsomely for pieces of this land, and there are also indi- vidual citizens who may desire to purchase improvements. We be- lieve that by that means we could receive or should receive between $6,000,000 and $8,000,000 for the surface. The proposition there- fore that we suggest is the sale of the coal and the immediate division of that money which necessarily, then, means the bringing up of the question of removing the restrictions in a safe way. Senator Long. You agree with the official part of your nation on the proposition? Doctor Wright. On the removal of restrictions? Senator Long. No; I mean on the mode of payment. Doctor Wright. Yes; on the mode of payment. Now, then, the next proposition — and I am going to be as short as possible and leave out much that I might say — is as to the question of schools. Five civilized tribes. 971 The school proposition is not what it should be to the people of this country. Up to 1896, every year, the Choctaw people have had young men and young women graduates of different colleges, with their professions, returmng to take their places and perform their duties as citizens of this section. Since that year none has gone beyond the border. Senator Long. Since 1896? Doctor Weight. I think that Mr. McGregor, who spoke to you to-day, was one of the last educated by the nation. The Chairman. Was it the practice of the nation to send these young men away for education? Doctor Weight. Yes. There were about 40 every year graduated from different colleges. Senator Beandegee. At the expense of the nation? Doctor Wright. Yes; and given a profession. We have men here from Harvard, from Union, and from different schools in the East. The Chairman. I knew that you had many graduates, but it never dawned on my mind that it was at the expense of the nation. Doctor Weight. It was at the expense of the nation. If you should look into the history of their school work I think it would open your eyes a good deal. It will show that they are a progressive peo- ple. But since that time there have been no children sent beyond the border, unless some one was himself able to do it. Senator Beandegee. Was that for lack of funds? Senator Teller. You mean that no one was sent since the Gov- ernment took charge? Doctor Weight. Yes, sir; and the children of the neighborhood, the Choctaw children (I speak from absolute personal knowledge), are not attending schools. I have with my delegation a full blood who -will tell you himself that in order to get a white school in the neigh- borhood the people have gone to a distance of 10 miles to get the name of an Indian child in order to get the necessary 10 to establish a school, so that they could get the Choctaw funds, ostensibly to use them for the Choctaw children, but in reality for the white children, so that the white children are getting the benefit of it. Senator Teller. And the Choctaw people are not getting the benefit of it ? ■ Doctor Weight. That is so. Senator Tellee. Why do they not go to school ? Doctor Weight. They are scattered. The allotments have scat- tered them. Senator Tellee. That is the trouble ? Doctor Wright. That is the trouble. There is another point. I feel this way about it. I believe that a reduction, if you might put it that way, even though we might put a price on this coal, a reduction could be made. And even if a reduc- tion was not made, a part of that money should be applied to the school fund and paid to the State as a school fund, to show that the Choctaw people have a personal interest in this school fund, and that their children will receive the benefit of it. Otherwise I am afraid they will not. I think you will find men in this audience who will agree with me that the educational conditions to come later on are going to create a very vexing proposition. 972 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. Your educational proposition so far as your com- mon schools are concerned will depend more largely on the com- munity in the county, rather than on the State. I imagine that you will draw not a very large proportion of your fund from the State, so that the matter of schools should be under the immediate control of your neighborhoods. Doctor Wright. Yes, to a certain degree. Mr. Rouse, who is an old man and a citizen of this country, will tell you that he is able to show that the Choctaw children will not get the benefit of these funds. The Chairman. This is true, and it can not be gainsaid. Whatever a white child or any other child in a given community enjoys of the benefit of the schools, that same advantage a Choctaw or Chickasaw or any other inhabitant of the district must of necessity enjoy. Senator Teller. If they choose to take advantage of it. The Chairman. Of course, if they choose to take advantage of it. Doctor Wright. Yes, sir; they have been doing that in Oklahoma, I believe. Senator Teller. This large appropriation that we have made for the new State grew largely from the fact that you have no land here to devote to school purposes as States in other parts of the country have. Doctor Wright. There is another question upon which I wish to say a few words. Our citizens have made improvements on this segre- gated land. You will see in our memorial that we ask that they be paid immediately for their improvements ; or, if the citizen on account of past associations with the place desires to purchase it, we ask that he should have a preference right to purchase the property. There are men here in this audience who can speak personalty on this proposi- tion. I do not myself own any land on this property. In 1888, before a treaty was ever thought of, I thought that the coal proposition would perhaps interfere with settlement. Hence I located my farm off of the. coal property. Being an official then in the revenue department I knew a good deal about the coal fields, and hence I knew about where the segregation would extend, and I located my land accordingly. But there are many people who live now on this coal segregation, and if the committee so desire I should be glad to present them, if you would like to hear from them personally. Also I think that on this restriction proposition you ought to hear from the full-blood Indians. Senator Long. What is your view on restrictions, as to whether the full bloods and mixed bloods should be treated differently? Doctor Wright. No, sir; provided you give him what is his. First, I really believe that you must protect him against the desire he would naturally have to look after himself and his family's interests. There is not a citizen, full blood, half breed, intermarried, or otherwise, who has not been made poor by this allotment, on account of the necessary expenses of buildings, changing about, changing of the range, and cut- ting down the number of his cattle, horses, and hogs, to accommodate himself to conditions. Every man has been touched, and they must have relief. If they do not get relief they will be in trouble. Instead of the grafter, as we heard stated to-day, running after the Indian, it is a question of the Indian running after the grafter. I have seen a good deal of it. There is a gentleman friend of mine who lives in a different town from me, who could give you information on that point. And those people called grafters — it would be a good idea to hear from that class. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 973 The Chairman. Does this friend of yours live in Atoka ? Doctor Weight. No, in Muskogee. I think it would be well, because I believe you would find the true condition of the Indians. He could show you that condition and what he does in order to meet expenses, making additional sales, etc. Senator Clark, of Montana. When you began to speak you made some reference to some arrangement or negotiation having been entered into or authorized by someone (I did not quite understand it), looking to the sale of these coal lands; what was that? Doctor Weight. There was an act of council, as I understand, passed, but it was not approved by the President, authorizing the principal chief to sell this property, and allow him 10 per cent. I understand that that law was not approved by the President. But, Senator, I wish to say this, one of the hardest campaigns we had in this country was on the question of the attorneys' fees and yet they were paid. Senator Teller. That question was sent to the court ? Doctor Weight. Yes, that was arranged through some act of Congress. So we have a little fear of those things. I do not say that they want to do now, but they are contending for, the same thing that they did soon after that bill was passed. Personally, I think that I am just as able to handle my property as anybody, and I believe that Congress could leave it with the Secretary and that he could handle it. The Chairman. Is there anything further? Doctor Wright. Nothing more. I have left out a good deal that I was going to say. The following is the memorial presented by Doctor Wright: MEMORIAL OF THE CHOCTAWS AND CHICKASAWS. CoALGATE, Ind. T., November It, 1906. We, the chosen representatives of the Choctaw and Chickasaw people in convention assembled to consider the interests of our people, in order that the select committee of the United States Senate now in the Territory to investigate all matters of public interest, may know our desire as to the disposition of matters affecting the welfare of our people, do hereby present our respectful memorial as follows: First. We respectfully memorialize, through your committee, the Congress of the United States to pass laws which shall provide for the immediate sale of the surface of the tillable segregated coal and asphalt lands separate and apart from the mineral to actual settlers in tracts not less than 10 acres nor exceeding 160 acres, and that the coal and asphalt to be sold for the benefit of the State of Oklahoma; that the revenues arising from this coal and asphalt to be used for the State school fund. And we believe the Choctaws and Chickasaws should receive between thirty and fifty million dollars for said coal and asphalt. Second. We urge sale of the surface for cash of all segregated coal and asphalt lands not principally valuable for mineral, timber, and agricultural purposes, in tracts not exceeding 920 acres to any one purchaser. Third. We respectfn^y urge that the towns on the leases where the occupants have erected their own improvements be platted as town sites, and appraised and sold as other town sites have been disposed of in the Territory. Fourth. The present pressing needs of our people to improve their allotments require that all funds now in the United States Treasury and the amounts realized from the sale of the surface of the segregated lands and the coal should be immediately dis- tributed. And its prompt distribution will enable our people to improve their homes and furnish funds so badly needed for farming implements. Fifth. The great number of our people who improved farms on segregated coal and asphalt lands and who were compelled to accept allotments outside of this segrega- tion and to leave the homes to which many of us became attached and whose improve- ments were appraised with the solemn agreement that we would be paid for said im- provements three years ago; we respectfully urge Congress to either promptly order 974 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the payment long since due, or give the owners of said improvements the right to pur- chase by ireference the lands improved by our energy and industry. Sixth. We solemnly protest against the recent decision of the Department of the Interior in case of Joe and Perry Dillard, by which the illegitimate children of Choctaw and Chickasaw freedmen with any Choctaw or Chickasaw Indian blood are placed on an equality with Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians born in lawful wedlock, and these illegitimate children of African and Indian blood are now given an allotment valued at $1,041.28 instead of 1130.16, which was given them as a liberal gift on the part of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and not as a matter of right and justice. Seventh. We earnestly urge the prompt payment by the United States of the debt long delayed and due our people for the lands taken from them and distributed to the freedmen of the Chickasaw Nation ; we respectfully urge that the Congress of the United States appropriate a sufficient sum to maintain our rural schools and give every child in the Indian Territory school facilities until the State of Oklahoma shall be able to provide for their continuance. Wc also urge that the United States purchase all ojjr school and public buildings. Eliphalbt N. Weight, Chairman. G. W. Harkins, Secretary. STATEMENT OF MB. ALLEN WRIGHT. The Chairman. Where do you reside? Mr. Wright. Smithville, Ind. T. The Chairman. Of what nationahty are you? Mr. Wright. I am a Choctaw. The Chairman. What people, or class of people, do you represent in making your statement ? Mr. Wright. The full-blood Choctaws. The Chairman. You may proceed and make such representation as you desire. Mr. Wright. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee: I have come with my friend, Mr. Jackson, in the effort to look after the wants of our people. I represent the second district of the Choctaw Nation — seven counties ot people, mostly full-blood Choctaws. In Meshaba Count j^, where I live, I doubt if you could find more than 100 white families m the county. The county is 70 miles long and 50 miles wide. There are about 75 to 90 famihes of white people in the county. I was informed by the Indian agent during the last payment of town-site funds that they paid out between 400 and 500 shares to Choctaws, which shows the population of that county. The Chairman. How much would that show the population to be? Mr. Wright. Each one gets his share. I suppose, that in that area or radius of 25 miles around, it would be about 500. The Chairman. About 500 people? Mr. Wright. Well, more than that. The children of the full bloods were not paid during that time and the reason why they were not paid by the Commission was this : Shortly after the probate mat- ters were taken from the Choctaw court, the representatives of differ- ent companies, especially trust companies, and more especially a cer- tain trust company of Atoka, sent out different agents. I could name some of them if necessary, some eight of them, some Choctaws by blood, and three white men. The principal man was A. C. Million. Another one was A. J. Walduck, of Ardmore, originally from Illinois, I think; and one was R. S. Allen, of Mena, Ark. These three men hired Indians, young men who could speak English, who went from house to house and got the names of the children that each parent FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 975 had. The majority of the full bloods could not understand what they ■were signing. They had to sign by marks, witnessed by these men who were canvassing for those children's names, and by that means they gave what are known as "waivers" of the right of appointment. The Chairman. An instrument waiving their guardianship rights as parents of the children? Mr. Wright. Yes. By that means the parents were deprived of control of the interests of their children. And therefore when the parents came along, they did not draw the money for their children. In fact, a great many of them now are nearly starved to death, and the trust company at Atoka has failed to pay out the money that was due to those children and some of them died without attention, some orphan children. The Chairman. In cases of that sort, why is not complaint made to the court to see that the guardians appointed by the court perform their duty under their oath and bond? Guardians are regularly appointed by the court, are they not? Mr. Wright. Yes. They have applied to the courts. The attor- neys for the nations, on probate matters, McCurtain and Hall, pros- ecuted this man A. C. Million and others, and in the meantime these parties showed that they had received waivers from the parents to the trust company and the trust company -has made a contract with two men whom I know; one is Henry Sangwin and the other man is Peter J. Hudson, of Tuscahoma, Ind. T. These parties made application for appointment for guardians over these children, but it seems the parents made complaints to Mr. Hudson and Mr. Sangwin, and it seems that Hudson and Sangwin have no power to send money for those children because the trust company has control of the money. Senator Clark, of Montana. What is the name of that trust com- pany? Mr. Wright. The Southern Trust Company. Senator Clark, of Montana. In Atoka ? Mr. Wright. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Are they the recipients of the money? The Chairman. Is the money deposited with the trust company? Mr. Wright. Yes. The Chairman. That money so deposited is subject to the order of the court, is it not? Mr. Wright. Yes. I merely wanted to show why the children were not paid, and the reason I wanted to show that is this : The parents, a great many of them, are able to take care of the children, but unknown to the parents these grafters have The Chairman. I will guarantee that if the parents will go into court the court will set aside that action. Mr. Wright. There are several cases like Mr. Hudson's case. He is guardian over, I think, some 75 or 90 children. Senator Teller. Is he a square man ? Mr. Wright. I suppose so. I know he is a good man. Senator Teller. Then why does he not go into court and get an order on the Trust Company to pay this money out for the benefit of the children? Congress has not any control over that matter. Mr. Wright. I know that. I only wanted to show how it was that it was done. 976 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Teller. We have trouble enough already without going into that. It is easy for the parents or the guardian to go into court. If the guardian does not do it, the parents can do it. Mr. Wright. Another thing I want to say to the committee is, that a great many Choctaws over there, when the land ofl&ce was open, were not able to go to it because it was more than 90 miles away. When I got to Atoka I found that all Indians that I thought were not able to travel, on account of lack of money, had been carried over there through this town (McAlester). They went to Hatfield. What are called "land grafters" took a carload of Indians from Hatfield to Howe, and from here to Atoka, and another carload from another direction coming up by Durant to Atoka, and lined them up there. These grafters. Roach & Co., of Mena, and others, go to Mr. John- son, who has six children and his wife, and tells them and others over there, ' 'I want you to file on that land; I will give you $10 for a quarter section ; I will give you $25 for the whole allotment and I will pay your way to Atoka and back. " That is the way they went over there — a carload of Indians. But, lo and behold, the land was held up at that time, and another grafter got hold of the same parties and car- ried them over to Tishomingo and they filed homesteads and surplus land. They could not apply for surplus until they filed homesteads first. And nearly all filed for allotment in the Chickasaw Nation. The Chairman. To what does this all tend ? Mr. Wright. The point I wanted to present to you is this : Living in the Choctaw Nation, just as soon as they filed their land in the Chickasaw Nation they make a contract for five years and take $40 or $50 for a full allotment, but oftentimes the parties refuse 'to pay. They may pay $25 or $12.50 or whatever they have a mind to. The Chairman. What is it that you want to have done? Mr. Wright. I want the law repealed which prohibits the full bloods from leasing the land. The Chairman. You want to be allowed to lease the land? Mr. Wright. Yes, sir ; only reserve 40 acres in homestead. The Chairman. You want them to be given liberty to lease their sur- plus land and all their homesteads except 40 acres ? Mr. Wright. Forty acres. The Chairman. What do you say about the sale of it? Mr. Wright. There was a family living near Smithville who had surplus land near Ardmore, and some nearComish, and they wanted to move over there and live on their own land. A man named Cobb had leased it from those parties. Mr. Cobb tells these people: "I leased from you for five years ; it is now three years, and if you want to take possession of your land in the Chickasaw Nation you can pay me $200 down and you can have the place and the improvements I have made." In order for the full blood to live on his homestead, he ought to have 40 acres reserved from leasing or sale, so that he could live on it. The Chairman. Then your idea is that, so far as leasing is con- cerned, the full bloods should be allowed to lease everything, including the surplus, allotment, and homestead, except 40 acres ? Mr. Wright. Yes. The Chairman. Is there anything you wish to say regarding these lands? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 977 Mr. Wright. There is. As to restrictions, I think that they ought to be removed from surplus lands of the full bloods for the reason that the majority of the people are land poor. This could be done with the understandmg that supervision could be exercised by either the court or the Government to look after the interests of the full bloods. A great many deeds have been signed by Indians — full bloods — who did not know the contents of the deeds and so gave their title away. The Chairman. Then your view as to that is that the restrictions on the full bloods should be removed as to surplus, and they should be able to sell that surplus under conditions such as would enable it to be honestly sold? Mr. Wright. Yes. The paper presented by Mr. Wright is as follows : Gentlemen of the United States Senate Committee: The subject that has been assigned to me by those interested in the welfare of the Territory and its people is one to which I'have given serious and solicitous consideration. Affecting, as it must, the future well-being of the Indian, it is calculated to arouse the sober reflection of any person who has the welfare of his people at heart. I have often asked myself the ques- tion whether it was better to remove every restriction from the land of the Indian and place him on an equal footing with the other citizens of this country or should the restrictions now thrown about him and his property be permitted to remain. I have tried to free myself from any bias or prejudice in considering the question and to look at it from the standpoint of a person interested in the success of this country and at the same time mindful of the Indian and his condition as 1 know it. The first plan, that of retaoving every restriction, has many things to commend it and is worthy of serious consideration, and while it would probably advance the material interests of the coun- try to a great degree, it might do so at the expense of many ignorant and uninformed Indians — a result to be avoided. The second plan — that one now in operation — also has many things to recommend it, and if it accomplished the purposes for which it was adopted, that of benefiting the Indian, should be carried out. But those of us who are acquainted with the conditions of the country and know the prevailing circumstances among those Indians whom it is sought to protect realize that the placing of restric- tions upon the land of the Indians is a detriment rather than a beneiit. I am informed that this subject has already been presented to you and in a manner far better than I am capable of, and what I shall say to you will be by way of supplementing what has already been said, and I shall only briefly take up the question of the removal of restrictions upon the surplus allotments of the Choctaws and Chickasaws. In these two nations each citizen, as you are aware, has received as his or her allot- ment 320 acres of average allotable land, one-half of which, or 160 acres, is the home- stead. And if we take the average family of five, consisting of husband, wife, and three children, those five persons are the owners of 800 acres of land, which is home- stead land and can not be disposed of during the lifetime of the allottee, not exceeding twenty-one years, and 800 acres of surplus land. If the head of the family has accu- mulated enough of means to properly improve the large amount of land of himself and family, it is safe to assume that he will be abundantly able to take care of himself and his property under any state of affairs whatsoever; but if, as many of the Indians are, he is unable to improve and properly cultivate the land of himself and family, then this large acreage of land is useless to him, and in its unimproved state a serious drawback to the advancement of the country. Without means and unable to use his land as col- lateral with which to procure the means, his land lies idle orhe is forced to lease it at a dis- advantage in order to derive any income from it whatsoever. Those of us who are acquainted with the lease system as practiced in this country know that such a system is a fraud upon the Indians and a curse to the country. The majority of these leases are held by a class known as grafters, whose one aim is to secure all the land they can at the lowest possible price and sublet it at the highest price obtainable without any thought or care as to the future condition of the land. Before the legislation passed by the last Congress the favorite plan was to lease the allottee's land for a period of five years, pay- ing a small amount as part consideration and agreeing to place substantial improve- ments on the allotment as a further and the moving consideration. The improvements placed thereon, as a rule, are of such a character that at the end of five years they will be worthless and the allottee will be in as bad a condition as when he made the lease, as fai as improvements are concerned. The class of subtenants who are willing to sub- S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 63 978 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. rent these leases are not the kind of farmers who buildup a coiantry, and generally such subtenants are of the same stamp as the man from -whom he subrents. The'honest farmer who will improve and build up this fair land of ours and become a useful and substantial citizen of the State will not put forth his best efforts under such conditions. He will have none of the grafter or his questionable holdings, and until it is possible for the better class of farmers to come among us and own and improve the land of this country the country's progress must be at a standstill. We can never build up such a State as we should and will, if given the opportunity, under such a condition as prevails here. A State founded upon a system of tenancy will never develop into a prosperous State. To obtain the results that the country is capable of we must make it possible for the honest farmer to come here and obtain title to the land, and whenever it is possible to acquire good title to property we will have well-improved farms and a substantial class of citizens, instead of poorly improved farms put in under leases and the floating population which follows. If the allottee had the right to sell all of his surplus I believe that both the Indian and the country would be materially benefited. The reason for this assertion, in addi- tion to what has already been stated, is this: There has been given to each Choctaw and Chickasaw allottee,' with the exception of freedmen allottees, land valued at $1,041.28. The land was appraised at from 25 cents per acre, the lowest value, to $6.50, the highest value, and the allottee who selected 25-cent land has received or will receive 4,165.12 acres of land, one-half of which, or 2,082.26 acres, is his homestead. The allottee who has selected the highest-priced land has received 160.19 acres, one-half of which, or 80.9 acres is his homestead, and if he has selected average land he has received 320 acres of land, of which 160 acres is his homestead. If the Indian will cultivate well his present homestead allotment, even though he has only 80 acres, his condition will be far supe- rior to what it is to-day. If the restrictions are removed then it will be possible for the honest farmer to deal direct with the Indian and to improve a farm which will bean example to his Indian neighbor. The idea that prevails throughout all legislation regarding this country has been the protection of the Indian and the full-blood Indian rather than those of a lesser degree of Indian blood, and while I do not wish to be understood to question the motives which prompt such a spirit, it occurs to me too great a protection, too much paternalism and sentimentality might he of more harm to the Indian than good. New conditions now prevail and new methods in meeting those changed conditions must be inaugu- rated. From a citizen of a small nation, holding his land in common with the other citizens of the nation, he has become a citizen of a great State to be, owning in fee the land alloted to him; one of the citizens of a great nation, enjoying greater privileges and having placed upon him greater responsibilities. The sooner he appreciates those changed conditions and realizes that he is only one of many individuals that go to make up the citizenship of the country the sooner will his future be solved. I believe that the Indians of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations will meet those conditions as they should, and if the restrictions upon their surplus allotments are removed and they are placed upon an equal footing with other citizens as regards that part of their property that they will prove themselves worthy of the .confidence reposed in them. And I do not share this opinion alone. The governor of the Chickasaw Nation, a man who has been the chief executive of his nation for three terms and who has the interest of his people at heart and who is thoroughly familiar with their condition and standing as citizens, has every confidence in their ability to meet the new order of things, and so expressed himself in his last message to the legislature. True it is among the Indians there are many who will dispose of their land at the first opportunity and will squander the money that they receive for it, but I maintain that the restrictions that are now placed upon the land does not benefit this class of Indians. You can not any more successfully control by legislation a person's propensities to squander his substance than you can control by legislation his appetite for intemperance. Anyone who is acquainted with the class of Indians who would thus throw away their property will bear me out in the statement that this class will in some manner succeed in getting rid of their property. If they can not sell it, they will lease it for a mere pittance, and if they can not lease it they will enter into some sort of a contract, greatly to their disadvantage, in order to obtain a small amount of money. This class, which I believe forms a very small percentage of the Indians of these nations, and which are to be found in every race of people on earth, you can not protect, and the restrictions now on their lands only serve the purpose of checking the great majority of the Indians who wish to progress, retarding the growth and advancement of the country, and at the same time giving the grafter a better chance to drive a better bargain. In other words, I believe that the restrictions upon the surplus allotments benefits only the grafter at the expense of the Indiana and to the detriment of the country. But, as said before, I believe that the class of spendthrift Indians form a very small percentage, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 979 and I am firmly convinced that the great majority will appreciate the value of their land, and if they sell will receive the full worth. There is still another argument, it seems to me, that mig;ht be urged in favor of the removal of restrictions upon surplus lands in these nations. We have just been granted the right by Congress to form a new State, under whose government, when formed, must live both the white man and the Indian. With this great privilege must also come great responsibilities and burdens. One of the heaviest burcfens that must fall on the citizens at the very beginning will be the burden of taxation. The expense of State, county, and municipality must be met. As long as the land is bound down by restrictions and in the hands of the allottees it can not be taxed, and if the taxes can not be raised on real property then it must be levied on personal property, and will fall with equal force on the Indian and the white man. The more progressive and thrifty the Indian is and the more personal property he has acquired the heavier will be his taxes, while the Indian who has no property except his allotment is free from taxation. It is human nature to love and respect an institution to which we contribute more than to an institution to which we do not con- tribute, and if the Indian contributes to the support of the school, to the expense of the county, and to the maintenance of the Government, then he is going to feel an interest in that school, the affairs of the county will concern him, and he will honor and respect his State and its institutions and become a useful and positive citizen. No State can attain a greater height in the character of its citizenship than the character of the indi- viduals who compose it, and if we are to talce our proper place among the other States of the Union then must we bring the individuals of the State to a proper realization of the duties and responsibilities of a citizen of the State, and this can be best brought about by creating m the individual an interest in the affairs of the State. I for one, and I think a majority of the Indians who thinlc about tliis question, do not want to shirk any of the duties that I owe my State as a citizen if I am to share equally with the other citizens of the State in the benefits to be derived from the State. In conclusion I will sum up what I have endeavored to say in this: I believe that the present and future interest of the Indians will be best subserved by a removal of the restrictions upon surplus allotments, and that without this the Indian will be more harmed than benefited and the progress and advancement of the State will be retarded. Respectfully submitted. Allen Wright. STATEMENT OP MB. J. H. WILKINS. The Chairman. Please state your post-oflBce address. Mr. WiLKiNS. South McAlester, Ind. T. The Chaieman. You have a matter, I beheve, that you wish to present to the committee? Mr. WiLKiNS. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the matter I wish to present is a matter in behalf of the people of Hartshorne, a town situated some 16 miles east of this place. As you gentlemen know, under the Atoka agreement a tov^Ti-site commission was appointed to lay off and appraise the towns that had been built up over this country by noncitizens who had invested their means. A provision was made in the Atoka agreement that they might hold and save the property that they had improved in the towns by permission of the citizens. In the appraisement of the different towns 9f the Choc- taw Nation, after a year or more of the work of the Commission, there was a change in the Commissioners on the part of the Government. Doctor Sterrett, the former Commissioner, resigned, and Mr. C. 0. Shepard, of New York, I believe, was appointed in his stead. When he came to take up the work that Doctor Sterrett had left off it seems that he had quite a different view of the value of lands from the views held by Doctor Sterrett, and m making the appraise- ment of the first town that he got to (Hartshorne, I believe it was) he appraised the values at such enormous prices that very great confu- sion resulted. The people remonstrated with him as to the values. They had a good deal of difficulty m the matter, and confusion grew 980 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. out of it. The appraisement was made; and it was so out of reason and out of proportion to other towns that they had appraised that the people appealed to the Secretary of the Interior for a reduction of the appraisal. The inspector was ordered to investigate the matter, which he did, and on making his report the Secretary saw fit to take no action in the matter because of a personal difficulty that had occurred in the town of Hartshome — a difficulty in which the Com- missioner, Mr. Shepard, was assaulted. It is true that while this work was going on — the people realizing that they were about to lose their property because the value placed upon it was so large that they could not hold it — there was a good deal of excitement. In the excitement the Commissioner was assaulted^— viciously, violently, and desperately. The town was upset. The people held a mass meeting on the second day after the assault was made upon the Commissioner and denounced the assault in the strongest terms. They gave Mr. Shepard a copy of the resolutions and sent one also to the marshal. The people who had committed the assault were prosecuted. Two persons were convicted for the assault upon the Commissioner. They were indicted also for con- spiracy and for hindering an officer in the discharge of his duties. I happened to be United States attorney at that time, and I know that everything was done that possibly could be done to convict the parties who committed this assault. Colonel Shepard always felt and believed that the whole town was to blame for it, and he so charged; and every effort that was made to reduce the appraise- ment and place the property within reach, so that the people could buy it and pay for it, he resisted, and has done so up to this day. The matter is now before the Secretary of the Interior. We are informed, however, that the Secretary believes fully that he has no power to give relief for the reason that the Commission has gone out of existence. Under the Atoka agreement the Commission was to assess the value of these lots and each resident owner was to have one business lot and one resident lot at 50 per cent of its appraised value. Mr. Wilkins proceeded to read the petition, which, with accom- panying papers, will be found printed at the end of this statement. Aiter having read for some time — The Chairman. For the sake of gaining time and getting along, Mr. Wilkins, I think I may say that you have shown that an exag- gerated appraisement was placed upon this property. Mr. Wilkins. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Let me ask you in brief what relief it is that you ask for, without stopping to read all those papers. Mr. Wilkins. We ask for the relief suggested by the Secretary of the Interior as the only remedy. That is, that Congress authorize by bill the Secretary of the Interior to have that property reap- praised ; to have commissioners appointed on the part of^ the nation and commissioners on the part of the Government of the United States to reappraise it. The Chairman. Have you prepared any sort of bill for that purpose ? Mr. Wilkins. It is our purpose to do so, but we have not done it yet. We suggest that Congress either do that or give relief by a FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 981 direct bill of reduction from the present appraisement, say 40 or 50 per cent; whatever might be just and reasonable. The Chairman. Haying prepared such a bill as that, could you present it to the committee in connection with this matter, or would you be prepared to do that ? Mr. WiLKiNS. I would hardly be prepared to do that. Col. J. H. Shepherd has really the matter in charge. I think he has determined that we would present a bill for either the one alternative or the other. The Chairman. Determining, after due consideration, which course you may take ? Mr. WiLKiNS. Yes; and after conference with the committee. The Chairman. Very well. Mr. WiLKiNS. I think I have gone far enough to show that the appraisement was unreasonable and excessive. Senator Long. Is there any objection to this on the part of the Nation? Mr. WiLKiNS. I do not know.. I do know this, that when the Secretary of the Interior ordered the inspector to go out and investi- gate the matter, counsel on the part of the Nation appeared and made no protest. Senator Brandegee. I understand that the inspector has the matter in his hands now and is prepared to say something about it. Inspector J. George Wright. I want to remark that the matter has been referred to the inspector and a report will soon be submitted to the Department, with the suggestion and recommendation that it be referred to Congress as to what might be done, and therefore what- ever Mr. Wilkins may file here can refer to the correspondence with the Department. Senator Long (to Inspector Wright) . You have made your report ? Inspector Wright. Not yet; but I have the data with regard to it. It is a question of law as to whether the Secretary can reappraise it under existing law. Senator Long. Do you agree with Mr. Wilkins that relief should be granted ? Inspector Wright. In one sense the town ought to be reappraised. The Chairman. I understand that your report will be that there ought to be at least a reappraisement. Mr. Wright. Yes. Mr. Wilkins. Inspector Wright and I are, I think, in harmony in this matter. Senator Long. The Nation does not object? Mr. Wilkins. It has not objected. Senator Long. Then if there be no objection where will the difficulty be? Mr. Wilkins. I do not know where it will be, but I know where it has been. As I stated, while the people have passed resolutions evidencing their feeling of regret, Mr. Shepherd holds the whole town responsible for it. The Chairman. But I understand you to say that the Secretary himself thinks that it is impossible for him now to give rehef under the law? Mr. Wilkins. Yes. The Chairman. Do you understand that he has no objection to a reappraisement ? 982 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. WiLKiNS. I do not think he has, unless he is influenced by Mr. Shepard, as he has been heretofore. Senator Long. Who is Mr. Shepard, and where does he hve ? The Chairman. He is the man that was assaulted. Senator Long. I know; but where is he now? Mr. WrLKiNs. He is in the Osage Nation now. The Chairman. Well, what can we do other than we have indi- cated ? Mr. WiLKiNS. I do not know. I am trying to impress you with the things that have stood in the way. The Chairman. You have fully impressed us with the idea that this appraisement is too high and should be lowered. Senator Long. Do you want us to do something to Mr. Shepard'? [Laughter.] Mr. WiLKiNS. No, sir. I want to show to the Secretary of the Interior that the relief ought to be given; but you will meet Mr. Shepard's antagonism, and I want to prepare you for it, since he says in a letter that the people's action at Hartshorne has cost them $50,000. I The Chairman. That letter will not help Mr. Shepard's influence. Senator Teller. I should think that that would end Mr. Shepard's influence. Mr. McMtiRRAT. I am very sorry the time is so short or I should like to discuss this Shepard matter. The Chairman. We are not willing to give any time to this Shepard matter. Mr. McMuRRAY. But I did not wish to let these proceedings pass without saying something about so excellent an officer as Colonel Shepard. Senator Teller. You can put it in a letter. Mr. WiLKiNS. This is all that has stood in the way of justice. Everything has been done by the officers of the Government to bring the guilty parties to justice. The two persons who committed the assault have been punished. The Chairman. I do not think that that cuts any figure at all in the matter of this appraisement. Mr. WiLKiNS. very well, sir. The Chairman. If you will furnish the papers I think you can rest, the assurance being given by the inspector that he has made his rec- ommendation and the nations do not object. The following are the papers submitted by Mr. Wilkins: In Re Reappraisement of the Town of Hartshorne, Ind. T. Come now the people, resident property owners of the town of Hartshorne, Ind. T., by their attorneys, J. H. Shepherd and J. H. Wilkins, and represent to this honorable committee that they are bona fide residents and property owners of the town of Harts- home, Ind. T.; that many of them settled some twelve or fourteen years ago in and around the mining camp which grew into a town of about 2,000 people, when the said camp was laid out, surveyed, mapped, and platted in 1903 by the Choctaw Townsite Commission, as provided by law, that said Townsite Commission in 1904, as directed, scheduled the lots to the claimants thereof and appraised same at certain values and in due time offered for sale to the highest bidder the unimproved lots. Petitioners allege that the Commission aforesaid, in fixing values upon both business and residence lots, highly and very greatly overestimated the true value thereof (see affidavit of Capt. J. P. Grady, ex-United States marshal, attached hereto and made an exhibit and part hereof), placing same so grossly in excess of their true value that many FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 983 of the claimants to the lots were compelled to remove their improvements rather than pay the amounts required by law. Many others, perhaps a majority thereof, have made their first and probably second payments under protest, to keep from sacrificing their interest and in hope that the honorable Secretary of the Interior, upon proper diowing made, would relieve them of such burdens by properly reducing such exces- sive appraisements. That said appraisement was clearly out of proportion when compared with that of other towns of the Choctaw Nation and of adjoining nations, as evidenced by the fact that business lots in Hartshorne were appraised as high as $600 (per 25 feet front), whUe the highest value placed upon any single 25-foot front lot in the city of South McAlester, with over 5,000 population, 16 miles distant, was $625, which last-named lot could not be bought at this time for $8,000. That the highest value placed upon any 25-foot front lot in the city of Muskogee, a city of some 8,000 population, was $410, which lot to-day can not be bought for $10,000, while the lots in Hartshorne could now be sold for very little more, if any, than their appraised value. That because of the excessive appraisement placed upon the lots by said Commission the owners of the improvements have actually been unable to pay for same, and the progress and building up of the town have been retarded and business has declined in volume, and, as a result, some of the best business property of the town is vacant and unoccupied. Petitioners further allege that Haileyville, an adjoining town on the west, is now prosperousj that after its appraisement by said Townsite Commission the residents mereof claimed that said appraisement was excessive and out of reason, and upon a proper showing to the honorable Secretary of the Interior a new appraisement was ordered, which resulted in a general, reduction of 40 to 50 per cent, and as a further result the people have thus been enabled to make their payments, improve their property, and increase their business, as shown by their annual assessments, which for 1902 was $225,000, and in 1905 was $250,000. The same condition prevailed as to Krebs, some 10 mUes from Hartshorne, and upon a sufficient showing a second appraisement was ordered, resulting in a reduction of about 40 per cent. Petitioners further state, that owing to the very excessive appraisement, people see- ing and realizing that their property was being placed beyond their ability to make the required payments, tried to reason with the Commission and persuade them to give them a chance for their homes; and to all of their appeals the Commission turned a deaf ear, and at this juncture excitement ran high, and under this excitement Col. C. 0. Shepard, one of the Townsite Commissioners, was induced to go to a rather secluded place in the town by one J. C. Wilcox, where he was viciously and wickedly assaulted by one Wilford Tingles. A thorough investigation was made by the United States grand jury. Special coun- sel was appointed by the Department of Justice, scores of witnesses were examined, and as a result the said Wilcox and Ungles were indicted and tried for conspiracy to assault a United States oflficer in the discharge of his duties, etc., resulting in an acquittal, though the same parties were also indicted, tried, and convicted for a dis- turbance of the peace, and sentenced to pay a fine of $200 and be imprisoned for a period of three months. That because of this unfortunate assault Colonel Shepard quite naturally felt very indignant toward the entire people of Hartshorne, with two single exceptions, to wit, T. J. Stallings and S. A. Maysey, and has ever since bitterly opposed every attempt at a reduction, stating in a letter to T. J. Stallings in substance, "that because of this (the assault) it will cost the people of Hartshorne $50,000, and you may tell them that I said 80, but do not let Judge Stuart get hold of this letter (who was counsel for the residents of Hartshorne), as he might use it against me. " This letter was filed with the other papers in an application for relief with the Secretary of the Interior, copy of which we will try to get and file herewith. Petitioners would further state that on the second day after the assault there was a general mass meeting of the residents of the town, called by the mayor, and resolutions of condemnation against the guilty parties and of sympathy for Colonel Shepard were passed, Colonel Shepard being furnished with a copy. Petitioners would further show, by a comparative assesment of taxable property, that other towns have greatly increased in valuation and are prosperous, while Harts- home has decreased from its first assessment, to wit: South McAlester, assessment for 1902, $1,573,484; for 1905, $8,177,151. Haileyville, adjoining on west, 1902 was $225,000; for 1905 was $250,000. Wilburton, 20 miles to east, for 190.3 was $152,000; for 1905 was $275,000. Atoka, assessment for 1902 was $189,730; for 1905 was $500,250. Durant, assessment for 1902 was $846,898; for 1905 was $1,062,587. Muscogee, assess- ment for 1902 was $2,895,694; for 1905 was $8 890 033. Hartshorne, assessment for 1903 was $446 000; for 1904 was $398 000, and for 1905 was $421,675, and is therefore absolutely suffering in the very midst of prosperity. 984 riVB CIVILIZED TEIBES. Now, therefore, petitioners, in view of the distressed conditions alleged herein, and to be presented in the form of other statistics, humbly beg and respectfully ask at the hands of Congress proper relief, either by bill authorizing the honorable Secretary of the Interior to appoint a commission to reappraise the town of Hartshorne_, or a bill simply providing for a general reduction of the present appraisement, b,usiness lots, say, 50. and resident lots, say, 40 per cent, and for which in duty bound they will ever pray, etc. J. H. WiLKINS, Attorney for Petitioners. [Copy. — Original on file in Interior Department.] J. P. Grady, being duly sworn, says: I am 62 years of age, and live in South McAles- ter, Ind. T. Have lived in the Choctaw Nation sixteen years. I am well acquainted at Hartshorne, Ind. T., having lived there several years, where I conducted a mercan- tile business. Was residing there in 1897, when I was appointed United States mar- shal for the central district, and moved to South McAlester. I have been somewhat familiar with real estate values in Hartshorne ever since I moved to the town, in 1890. Because of my knowledge of conditions there the Choctaw Townsite Commission con- ferred freely with me in the appraisement of j)roperty in the town. In placing their assessments, however, of both business and residence property the Commission pretty generally overestimated the values 1 suggested, and because of this, with other rea- sons, in a mass meeting of the citizens of the town, soon after the appraisement, I intro? duced a resolution protesting against said appraisement, and joined in a genera] effort to get it reduced, and now, in the light of subsequent developments, I believe the property there has decreased fully 50 per cent in value since the appraisement. I own two improved places there, and am trying to sell them for a little more than one-half what they cost me. The better place cost me $1,150, and I am trying to get ?650 for it. The best hotel in the town is closed, the owners not being able to get anyone to run it free of rent. Business seems to be at a standstill, and the town is almost dead. I believe in justice to the citizens of that town the appraisement of the business property, taken as a whole, ought to be reduced 30 to 40 per cent and the residence property 50 per cent. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 29th day of May, 1906. Notary Public. Department of the Interior, U. S. Indian Inspector for Indian Ierritoet, Muskogee, Ind. T., September Bl , 1906. Mr. J. H. WiLKiNS, South McAlester, In/l. T. Sir: Referring to my letter dated September 19, 1906, in regard to reappraisement of Hartshorne, in .connection therewith I have to advise you that parties desiring to remit payments on town lots, which payments are past due, can do so, and the same will be received by the Indian agent until January 1 , 1907, the same as in other towns where payments are past due, as recently authorized by the Department. I would thank you to so advise the interested parties at Hartshorne whom you represent. Very respectfully, J. Geo. Wright, Inspectcrr. W.M.C. J.G.W. (L.M.C.) Department of the Interior, U. S. Indian Inspector for Indian Territory, Muskogee, Ind. T., October 6, 1905. J. H. WttKiNS, Esq., United States Attorney. Sir: I have your letter of September 28. I was informed by Mr. Hoyt, Acting Attorney-General, that all the prosecutions in the matter of assaults upon me^— Hartshorne and Hugo — were in the hands of Mansfield & Gresham. I therefore do not feel that I have much to say in the matter. As to the letter Jones showed you, I have received no apology from him, hence the letter is meaningless. Respectfully, yours, Charles O. Shbpard. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 985 Department op the Interior, U. S. Indian Inspector por Indian Territory, Muskogee, Ind. T., September 19, 1906. Mr. J. H. WiLKiNS, South McAlester, Ind. T. Sir: Referring to your several communications and to my conference with you in regajd to the reappraisement of town lots at Hartshorne, Choctaw Nation, I have to advise you as follows: As I have informed you, no reappraisement of the lots at said town could be made without further action by Congress. The law concerning appraisements of all town lots in the Choctaw Nation provides that such should be made by a commission, in which the nation should have a repre- sentative, such appraisements to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior before effective. There is no law, in my opinion, which authorizes the Secretary to alter or reduce the appraisement of any commission. In one or two other towns where there was reappraisement, the first appraisement was disapproved by the Secretary and a reappraisement ordered independent of the first appraisement, which was set aside. Another appraisement at Hartshorne could only be made in the same manner, in my judgment. The town-eite commission of the Choctaw Nation, as well as of 4 other nations, has been abolished. There is no appropriation at present authorized by Congress for the employment of a cismmission, and therefore no town-site commission could be created unless so authorized. The Indian appropriation act for 1906, approved March 3, 1905, provided that upon the completion of the appraisement of town lots, town-site commissions should be abol- ished, and the unfinished work of such commissions completed by the Secretary of the Interior. I inclose copy of the regulations of the Department concerning said law, which is also quoted, from which you will observe that the Secretary is to abolish the commissions after they have completed the appraisement of town lots. The town-site commission completed the appraisement of Hartshorne, and I think you will agree with me that the law referred to does not authorize the Secretary to disturb that or any other appraisement. For such reasons I do not believe that any reappraisement could be made of Harts- home, except by further act of Congress authorizing the appointment of a town-site commission and making appropriation therefor. The time for payments due on town lots under the original appraisement has, in many cases, long since expired, and under the law the same would be forfeited. You will appreciate the fact that the Department is powerless to change such law, but, as I informed you, until the matter of the reappraisement of Hartshorne is finally con- sidered, this office will take no action looking to the forfeiture of lots or selling the same at auction, but wUl allow the matter to stand as at present, although any inter- ested parties so desiring can complete payments on their town lots, and upon full pay- ment being made receive deed therefor, it being understood that in such instances they accept the appraisement heretofore made, and should any further action be taken looking to the reappraisement of other lots, the appraisement heretofore made on lots where payments have been made and deed issued will stand. With reference to any recommendation by the Department ,to Congress looking to the reappraisement of lots in Hartshorne, your attention has been invited to the action of the people there with reference to the assault on Mr. Shepard, a former town-site commissioner. I inclose herewith copy of a letter dated August 13, 1906, from the assistant United States attorney, on the subject, wherein he states that he believes there are parties in Hartshorne who could furnish information which would result in the conviction of those concerned in the assault on Mr. Shepard. Before submitting report thereon to the Department, I would be pleased to hear further from you with reference thereto. Very respectfully, J- G. Wright, Inspector J.G.W. (L. M. C.) Ends. COMPARATIVE ASSESSMENT FOR TAXATION, SHOWING INCREASE IN ALL TOWNS EXCEPT HARTSHORNE. The total assessment for the town of Durant, Ind. T., for the year 1902 was $846,898 and for 1905 is $1,062,587, both real and personal property. The total assessment for the city of Muskogee for the year 1902, both real and personal property, was $2,825,694 and for the year 1905 is $8,890,033. 986 ETVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. The assessment for the town of Atoka, Ind. T., for the year 1902 was $189,730 and for the year 1905 is $500,250. The total assessment for this city (South McAlester) for 1902 was $31,464.68 and for 1905 is $163,543.02. The statement given here is the amount of taxes, being 2 per The total assessment for Haileyville, Ind. T., for the year 1902, was $225,000, and for the year 1905 is $250,000, both real estate and personal property. The total assessment for Wilburton, Ind. T., both real and personal property, was for 1902 not assessed. But for 1905, personal property, $275,000; no real estate The total assessment for Wilburton for the year 1904 was $238,000, and for 1903 waa $152,000. The total assessment of the taxable property of Hartshorne for the year 1904 was $398,000, for 1903 was $446,000, and for 1905 is $421,675. AFFIDAVIT OF DECREASE IN BUSINESS. J. M. Fennell, first being duly sworn, says, I am41 years old, and reside in Hartshorne, Ind. T., and am engaged in the general mercantile business. My books show that I have done the following business: 1903 $43,700.51 1904 42,789.47 1905 30, 098. 20 The main and important reason why I believe my trade has fallen off is on account of the ruinous appraisement given out here by the Townsite Commission. I ran three delivery wagons at one time, but I now run one wagon. I have made the same effort to sell my goods that I formerly did, but the people I once sold to — at least, a great many of them — have moved away, and no new ones have taken their place. J. M. Fennell. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 20th day of June^ 1906. BoBEET HiGGiNS, Notcory Public. AFFIDAVIT OF POSTAL BUSINESS, HAETSHOENB, IND. T. F. M. Savage, being first duly sworn, says that I have lived here in Hartshorne about siicteen years, and am at present postmaster here. I personally know that the revenues of this office has been on the decrease ever since the appraisement was given out by the Townsite Commission. There was a reduction of about $200 last yfear. I attribute this to the excessive appraisement the town got at the hands of the Com- mission, and that the people have been so badly discouraged that quite a number have left, and those here feel that the town can hardly survive such an appraisement unless relief can come. F. M. Savage. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 20th day of June, 1906. RoBEET HiGGiNS, Notary Public. STATEMENT SHOWING DECEEASE IN LUMBEE BUSINESS. To whom it may concern: This is to certify that on March 1, 1903, we opened up a lumber business in Harts- horne, Ind. T., under the name of the Hartshorne Lumber Company. At the close of business October 15, 1903, our balance sheet showed a net gain of $5,478.53; beginning with that date and closing on November 30, 1904, we show a net gain of $5,186.17 to about August, 1904. The Government appraisement of the town of Hartshorne was made, and since that time, owing to the high appraisement of town property, the lumber business began to decline until we sold out on the 31st day of May, 1905, when our books showed an approximate loss of about $495.92. Haetshorne Lumber Company, By J. M. Geady. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 20th day of June, 1906. Egbert Higgins, Notary Public, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 987 STATEMENTS OP BUSINESS DONE IN HARTSHOBNE, IND. T., SHOWING DECREASE. The following is a true statement of business done by me as shown by my books which shows a decrease in business. In 1903 it was $13,476.40. In 1905 mv business was $10,164.60. Louis ROTHBAUM. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 20th day of June, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public. The following will show the amount of business done by the Hartshorne Drug Com- pany: Year ending 1903, in December, ?16,624.94. Year ending December, 1905, $10,023. The above is a true statement of our business for the years of 1903 and 1905. Savage Drug Company, resolution passed at mass meeting, hartshorne, ind. t. Whereas Hon. C. 0. Shepherd, a member of the United States Townsite Commis- eion, was willfully and maliciously assaulted and beaten in this town on September 17 last. Whereas it appears that the assault to have been premeditated, cowardly, and dis- graceful and of such a nature as to merit the greatest punishment for such an offence. Further be it resolved, by the citizens of Hartshorne in mass meeting assembled, that this cowardly assaiilt upon the Hon. 0. 0. Shepherd is deeply deplored and condemned, and the citizens of this town pledge themselves to assist the officers in the prosecution of the guilty party or parties. That a copy of this resolution be mailed to the Hon. C. 0. Shepherd, expressing the regrets of the citizens of Hartshorne over this unfortunate affair. That a copy be mailed to Hon. Geo. K. Pritchard, United States marshal, assuring him that the citizens here will aid him in every way possible in the prosecution of the guilty party or parties. This September 19, 1904. G. T. FoRBis, Chairman, Attest: T. W. Hunter, Secretary. apitdavits, etc., showing condition of business, hartshorne, ind. t. Hartshorne, Ind. T. H. F. Jeffers, secretary of the Hotel Hartshorne Company, being duly sworn, states that Hotel Hartshorne is an incorporated company, owned by the citizens of Harts- home; that said building cost the sum of $15,000, and that a mortgage is held for $6,000 by the Bank of Hartshorne, and that the above company is unable to borrow $6,000 to pay this mortgage. He further states that said mortgage will be foreclosed and the hotel sold the 16th day of June, 1906. He further states that they have been unable to rent the hotel for a period of five months, but have had a family living in it for the last five months, free of rent, to keep the hotel open, and that said family have not served any meals for a period of five weeks, owing to business not paying expenses. He states further that this is the only hotel in Hartshorne. H. F. Jbfi-brs. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 14th day of June, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public, J. 0. Biddle, being duly sworn, says, that I am a member of the Grady Trading Company. This company has been transacting a general mercantile business here in Hartshorne, Ind. T., for the last sixteen years. The trade at this place has been falling oft for the past three years. In August, 1904, our books show the sales at this place to have been $4,368.44, and in August, 1905, the sales were $2,718.52, showing a falling off of $1,649.92. I believe the other stores of the town will show like reductions in business. The store at this place was burned out last January, and owing to the discouraging outlook for business here the company has decided not to rebuild. Hartshorne was oncQ quite a flourishing mining town, but the large mine here in town has been worked out and abandoned and the other mining interests have been on the decline for some time. I believe I can safelj say that the price of real estate has depreciated in proportion to the depreciation in mining interest. J. C. Biddle. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 16th day of June, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public. 988 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Hartshorne, Ind, T., June 14, 1906. Dear Sir: Our people are getting very anxious about the reappraisement, and if you have anything encouraging to offer let me hear from you at once. Our town is ruined forever it we do not get immediate relief. The progress of our little city has been blighted and many of our good people have had to abandon their homes, from the fact that we were unable to pay this excessive appraisement. P. 0. Savage, Mayor of JBartshorne. Judge J. H. Shephard, Washington, D. C. Washington, D. C, June ^6, 1906. Dear Sir: As you have been informed, the appraisement matter for the town of Hartshome, Ind. T., asking for a reduction of the appraisement by the residents thereof, represented by J. H. Shephard, of South McAlester, and myself, has been referred to you for examination and report by the honorable Secretary of the Interior. I am very glad it was referred to you, because I know you understand the conditions there, and before you begin consideration of the matter I have a number of affidavits which I wish to file with you. They relate to the business affairs of the town and are exceedingly important in revealing the business situation. Will send them to you as soon as I return home. Very respectfully, J. H. WiLKINS. Hon. J. Geo. Wright, Muskogee, Ind. T. , Louis Rothbaum, first being duly sworn, says: My wife, Mrs. Annie Eothbaum, pur- chased from Mrs. Margaret Frazer lots 25 in block 97, Hartshorne, Ind. T. I made the trade and transacted all the business for my wife. I agreed to pay Mrs. Frazer the sum of $200 for this lot, together with all the improvements situated thereon. I paid her |50 down and got time on the rest. I am also to assume the amount yet due the Government. The full amount is due the Government. The lot is appraised at $450, and one is required to pay 50 per cent of this amount before patent will issue. When I have paid the amount due the Government and the amount due Mrs. Frazer, I shall then have paid the sum of $425 for the lot and improvements. I pur- chased this lot March 13 last, and it was sold to me after it had been on the market for the reason that I offered the most for it. There was a four-roomed boxed dwelling house on the lot, which I got in the trade. This house is worth $250, and at the present price of lumber could not be built for that price. I purchased this house for less than what it was worth and Mrs. Frazer threw in the lot. The reason why she had to make such a sacrifice was on account ©f the excessive appraisment on lots. It was necessary for her to sell the lot for less than the real value and then throw in her equity of 50 per cent in the value of the lot in order to find a purchaser. The map will show this lot to be well located. In the trade I paid every cent the house and lot is worth; that, is after taking into considera- tion the excessive appraisement of lots. Louis Rothbaum. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 23d day of May, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public. M. L. Thompson, first being duly sworn, says: I am the cashier of the Bank of Hartshome, and it has been part of my duty to pass on values of property here in Hartshorne. I was employed in this bank at the time the appraisment by the Government was made by the town-site commission. I know at the time of the appraisement that the lots here were valued at several times their value by the com- mission and at values we would not have thought of loaning money on, taking the lot as security if the party here had clear title. Owing to the high ahd excessive appraisements, the property has decreased in value ever since the appraisement, and a great many lots will revert to the Government. On about Juiie 3, 1905, the town-site commission sold vacant lots here, and out of a total of about 575 lots there was sold about 140 lots, and very ntearly all of these were sold in the western part of the town, where the prices were not so excessive, though, in my judgment, was too high. The parties who purchased at this sale were com- pelled to make their payments on or before the 3d of this month, or the lots and the first payment would be forfeited, and I believe that I can state beyond all possibility FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 989 of doubt that not 10 per cent have made the second payment on the lots sold on May 3, 1905, and that these lots now stand forfeited to the Government, together with the first payment. The mining interest has been on the decline here for the past five or six years, and one has only to go through the town to see any number of vacant property. M. L. Thompson. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 14th day of June, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public. SALE OF HOTEL. W. A. Polk, first being duly sworn, says: I was appointed by Hon. W. H. H. Clayton, judge of the United States court at South McAlester, Ind. T., commissioner to sell at public auction, under an order of foreclosure, the following property, to wit: Lots 30, 31, 32, in block 78, Hartshome, Ind. T., together with a two-story brick hotel, also the furniture for 31 furnished rooms. The lots alone were appraised by the commission at $1,600. I advertised this property in the local newspapers, and also in the Globe-Democrat, St. I.ouis, ]\Io., the Kansas City Star, Daily Oklahoma, and the Dalles News, and also by posting notices. (A copy of the notice is hereto attached and made a part hereof.) This hotel was built about two years ago, and the furniture has been used about the same time. To-day I sold this property under the aforesaid mortgage, and the highest bid was $6,600, and the property went for this bid. The hotel originally cost, not less than $15,000. The main and personal reason why I believe there has been such a depreciation in the value of property here is on account of the high and excessive appraisment by the town-site commission. The people have been so badly discouraged that they have little confidence in the town surviving such an appraisement. The above sale fairly represents their feelings in regard to property since the appraisement. W. A. Polk. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 16th day of June, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public. DRUG BUSINESS. I, F. C. Savage, the present mayor of Ha.rtshome, Ind. T., on oath state that I am a bona fide resident of said town, and have been constantly in the drug business for the last six years, and said business continued to be prosperous until 1904, and has gradu- ally fallen off up to the present time, the cause of same being the excessive appraise- ment, causing many of our citizens to abandon their homes. We have over 100 vacant houses in the town at this writing, rents have decreased one-half, and all the enterprises have suffered accordingly. F. 0. Savage, Mayor. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 20th day of June, 1906. Robert Higgins, Notary Public. LETTER to THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR. Washington, D. C, June M, 1906. Sir: I inclose a number of affidavits in the matter of the town of Hartshome. I also inclose the correspondence between one of the heaviest property owners and Com- missioner Shephard. The affidavits that if the property interests of the present lot owners are forfeited the Choctaw commission did well in the performance of its duty. I have never taken any part in any matter in the Territory that was unjust. On the contrary, in defending the Indians I have done so at pecuniary loss. I desire now to be permitted to file a brief or make an oral argument before any official you may designate m this matter. I come to the Department for redress, just as I did with reference to the legislation last winter, before going elsewhere. Yours, respectfully, J- H. Shephard. Hon. E. A. Hitchcock, Washington, D. 0. 990 I'lVB CIVILIZED THIBES. CONVICTION OF WILCOX AND DNQLES. [Copy o£ record.] United States v. J. 0. Wilcox and Wilford Tingles. Disturbing peace. No. 5480. Now on this day comes the United States, by its attorney, and comes the defend- ants, J. C. Wilcox and Wilford Ungles, and their attorneys, J. A. Hale and Yancey Lewis, esqs. ; whereupon comes the jury heretofore impaneled for the trial of this cause, who, after hearing the balance of the evidence, charge of the court, and argument of counsel, returned, in charge of a sworn bailiff, to consider of their verdict, who there- after returned into open court with the following verdict: "We, the jury duly impaneled and sworn in the above-entitled action, do find from the law and the evidence the within-named defendants, J. C. Wilcox and Wilford Ungles, guilty in manner and form as charged in the within indictment, and assess a punishment of a fine of ?200 on each defendant and three months in jail. " G. W. Wabe, Foreman."' Eecord book 13, page 173. South McAlestejT, Ind. T. March 25, 1905. WILCOX ACQUITTED OF CHARGE OP CONSPIRACY. [Copy of record.] United States v. 3. C. Wilcox. Conspiracy. No. 5277. Now on this day comes the United States, by its attorney, J. H. Wilkins, esq., and comes the defendant, J. C. Wilcox, and his attorneys, J. A. Hale and Yancey Lewis, esqs., and comes a jury heretofore impaneled for the trial of this cause, who, after hear- ing the balance of the evidence, charge of the court, and argument of counsel, retired, in charge of a sworn bailiff, to consider of their verdict, who thereafter returned into open court with the following verdict, to wit: "We, the jury duly impaneled and sworn in the above-entitled action, do find from the law and the evidence the within-named defendant, J. C. WUcox, not guilty. " G. W. Scales, Foreman." Becord book -13, page 560, December 1, 1904, South McAlester, Ind. T. Cause continued as to Wilford Ungles. correspondence jiegarding assault. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Muskogee, February 18. Dear Mb. Stallinqs: You misunderstood me. Gresham has just been in and tells me that you told him and others in South McAlester that I had sent word to the Hartshorne people by you "officially" about the upholding of the appraisement. It would be quite improper for me to send official information by you. Upon reflection you will remember I said you could tell them that the appraisement was sustained, that I was responsible for it, and that this treatment of me had probably cost the town $50,000; but I sent no official word. Please discriminate between the two. Don't say that I sent them official word. Their counsel. Judge Stewart, might use it against me. Just give them the information. That is enough. Sincerely, yours, C. 0. Shepabd. Habtshornb, Ind. T.,Fehruury 19, 1905. Mt Dear Sir: Yoms of yesterday is just received, and I can only reply that I told Mr. Gresham, as near as I could remember, the words you used. I could have no reason for doing otherwise. You, perhaps, did not mean to use this word, but that is the way you said it to me. I have no desire to do you an injustice through Judge Stewart, or anyone else, and I think I have demonstrated that fact by espousing your cause and willfully incurring the everlasting ill will of my fellow-citizens on the other side. I do not wish you to understand that I am making complaint; but it is very evident that I am to be loser on both sides, and proves that I should have kept my mouth shut. I g^uess I am about third heaviest property holder here and must pay, in this pro- portion, the $50,000 your assaulter has cost the town. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 991 Mr. Ungles is the only man now under indictment for an alleged assault on you, and you do not seem to realize that he does not own or claim one inch of ground in the town and is of so little consequence that his wife has since deserted him. Now, in all candor, Colonel, I am going to say to you that it occurs to me that in your eagerness to get even with somebody over here you laid aside that spirit of fair- ness which should have characterized your efforts to give the town an impartial and just appraisenient. Ib. fact, the spirit of your letter before me, in which you say "that I was resjjonsible for it, and that their treatment to me had probably cost the town $50,000," is proof positive of my assertion that you was intent on having the appraise- ment stand, however unjust it might be and regardless of what hardships it might inflict. Indeed, in this same letter, you caution me with the use of this letter saying, "their counsel. Judge Stewart, might use it against me," which is another evidence of the weakness of your position and an expression of fear that others besides me should know just why you wanted this unjust appraisement to stand. In conclusion, from the conversation I had with you personally, I have always entertained the belief that you would lay aside any personal feeling you might enter- tain and, as man to man, do right; no more, no less, as your commission required you. , I would still be happy in my belief that I was right in my opinion; but this letter which I have received from you has had a great tendency to convince me that my judgment of the man was wrong, and that my confidence and trust in what you would do has been spent in the wrong direction. Respectfully, T. J. Stallings. Col. C. 0. Shbpard, Mushogee, Ind. T. Muskogee, Ind. T., February ^0, 1905. Deak Mb. Stallings: Not being an official yourself, it is hardly to be expected that you will fully appreciate official distinctions. I could not tell you "officially" about Hartshorne appraisement because — 1. I did not know it officially myself, although I heard it from a perfectly reliable source. 2. I have no Ipnger anything to do with appraisements — am no longer a town site official — Whence can not say anything '"official" about town site matters. You misunderstood; but that is not important. About Judge Stewart, it was absurd of me to even suggest that he could use the word "official" against me. It was only that it was always unfortunate for anyone to get a wrong impression a dozen times before he received the right one. That would in a way be injurious for the time being, but not in the end. What I said about that had nothing to do with the appraisement. In regard to my being "responsible" for the appraisement standing, I never have said or thought that the values placed were too high. I am "responsible" in so far as using all arguments with the Department to make them see as I see. I told the Secretary that to cut it down would, m my opinion, be placing a direct premium upon perjury and crime. I am "responsible" in that the Secretary might have taken another view but for the cowardly assault. That is all. ' I think the appraisement was fair, so do others who would have bought at the auction had they not been intimidated. They told us so. IJngles is nothing. A dozen people are responsible for the assault, and a large proportion of the citizens knew that It was intended. You will see later on that the Department of Justice is by no means through. One honest man (you) would have benefited by a reduction and scores of bad men as well. Better that one honest man should pay more than he thinks he ought to than that scores of guilty men should profit by a crime. They would be rewarded for their conspiracy. You will remember that you said to me on the train that you would give $1,000 to see certain men punished as they deserved. I think they will be. Put down your extra appraisement, above what you think it ought to be, to the account of satisfaction. You need not treat anything I have said or written to you as confidential. Yours, very truly, ,^ ,-. o ' CO. Shepabd. 992 rrvB civilized teibbs. June 25, 1906. Sih: Your kindness and interest at the time I was assaulted in Hartshorne leads me to refer to the subject again, inasmuch as the Hartshorne people have employed attor- neys J. H. Shepherd and J. W. Wilkins for $3,500 to visit Washington for the purpose of securing a reduction of their appraisement. Against any reduction I beg to protest with all the vehemence in my power. No one has ever been punished for the attempted murder, and it is not intended that they shall be. True, the two men who did the actual slugging were convicted, but through a neglect so childish as almost to seem connivance — ^not allowing the prisoners the number of peremptory jury challenges to which they were entitled — the case has been hung up on appeal ever since — nearly two years. The principals. Baker, Brozel, & Bond, who paid the thugs for doing the work, could have been and can now be convicted of conspiracy if the people of Hartshorne would and will tell what they know. • Not only has the whole townj with two or three honorable exceptions, given no assistance to the prosecuting officers, but from the then mayor down have defended and shielded the culprits and have presented all possible obstacles to their conviction. The town is entitled to no consideration. To reduce the appraisement while the outrage on me is unpunished and the most guilty scoundrels are protected, would be putting a direct premium upon crime. It would be a reward for attempted murder, and would be so construed. It would be equivalent to saying: " Served him right. Do it again." I protest with all the fervor of which I am possessed. The inclosed cutting shows the spirit which pervades the entire community. Respectfully, yours, Charles O. Shbpaed. Hon. E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary of the Interior, McAlester, Ind. T.', Tuesday, November 20, 1906. STATEMENT OF MB. CHARLES H. HUDSON. The Chairman. Please state where you hve. Mr. Hudson. At Wilburton, Ind. T. The Chairman. What is your occupation? Mr. Hudson. I am in the practice of the law at Wilburton, and represent a class of citizens there who have suffered at the hands of a coal company. I want only about ten or fifteen minutes of your time. We have in Wilburton about 18 blocks of the town that have been reserved for the use of the Great Western Coal and Coke Company. The Chairman. How large a town is Wilburton? Mr. Hudson. Wilburton proper has 270 acres in the town site. The Chairman. But I mean the population? Mr. Hudson. The town proper has about 5,000 people, but the incorporated town has about 2,000. The voting there in this elec- tion was something over 900 in the town, counting the four voting places. I will state that on these 110 lots that have been reserved for the coal company about 52 of the lots have substantial and per- manent improvements located on them that were located there when the town site was platted. The town site was laid off in 1902. These lots were appraised and scheduled to the parties that then owned the improvements. That went to the Secretary of the Inte- rior and was approved; it came to Muskogee and was approved; it FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES, 993 came back to South McAlester to the town-site commission here, and the coal company pat in its protest. We have evidence now to submit, or we could submit the evidence, that the coal company never intended to use this property when it was reserved; that instead of using this property ttiey have by their survey located some 400 yards east of the line of this prop- erty the shaft for the location of which this property was reserved. They made the claim that they wanted some of this property for tenants — that is, for men that work in the mines. They have never offered to make any improvements on it. They claim that they wanted the place lor trackage purposes. In addition to that the coal company has abandoned the mines that run under this land. The coal has become of such inferior quality that they abandoned the mines, and have taken the machinery and track out of the mines. Now these people under the Atoka agreement have a right to have these lots scheduled to them. They have a right to pay for this ?roperty as the other citizens in that town paia for their property, hey are inside the corporation and they have paid taxes since the town has been incorporated, and they now ask that they be allowed to have this property scheduled or that they be allowed to pay for this property as it was scheduled by the town-site commission. We have a law (sec. 12 of the Five Civilized Tribes bill) that was passed at last session of Congress. We thought that under that law we had our remedy. It reads : Sec. 12. That the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to sell, upon such terms and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, all lots in towns m the Choctaw and CMckasaw nations reserved from appraisement and sale for use in con- nection with the operation of coal and asphalt mining leases or for the occupancy of miners actually engaged in working for lessees operating coal and asphalt mines, the proceeds arising from such sale to be deposited m the Treasury of the United States 2B are other funds of said tribes. We thought that under that law we had our remedy, and therefore we filed our petition before the Secretary of the Interior, asking that we be allowed to purchase these lots, and then we got the decision of the Secretary of the Interior on section 13 of that same act, which says : That all coal and asphalt lands, whether leased or unleased, shall be reserved from sale under this act until the existing leases for coal and asphalt lands shall have expired, or until such time as may be otherwise provided by law. The Secretary decided that that cut us out — that he did not have any right to sell these lots. These people that are living there are poor. Senator Teller. That relates to section 12 and section 13? Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir; we have his letter on file. These people are too poor to send representatives to Washington, and this is the first time that they have had a hearing where they could get relief or prospect of relief. There are something like $25,000 worth of improvements on these lots, and we think it is nothing but right that these people should enjoy the benefits under this first contract that was made by the Government and the Indians, as they are people who built up this country. " The Chairman-. What is your opinion as to the legal efl'ect of these two sections— has the Secretary's decision changed your opinion? S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 04 994 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Hudson. No, sir; I think if we had the proper court here we could mandamus the Secretary to sell these lots. Inspector Weight. These lots are on the segregated lands. The Chairman. I so understand. Inspector Wright. And therefore the Department can not do anythiag with lots of that character. Senator Teller. I do not think so. Mr. Hudson. We do not believe that the lawmakers, when they put til section 12, intended that the Secretary of the Interior should sell those lots. We believe that you people at Washington intended for the Secretary to sell those lots. The Chairman. But the Secretary declined to sell them under the law. * Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, what remedy do you propose ? Mr. Hudson. I ask that section 13, as far as it refers to these lots, be cut out by a new act. The Chairman. But suppose that Congress believes that they have aheady legislated on this subject m as effective a way as they can? Senator Teller. In other words, suppose Congress believes that they differ with the Secretary, which is very likely? [Laughter.] The Chairman. Do you intend to state that Congress should say, "We have done that before, but we will try to do it again?" Mr. Hudson. If we were able, as I said awhile ago, to prosecute our case we would now have it in the United States court — in a court where we could have control over the Secretary of the Interior. But I must confess that that is too far -away for these people that own merely their homes and work by day's work for their living. They have not got money to prosecute the matter. It seems to me that if the Secretary were down here himself he could see the justice of the claim of those people and would give them their rights. The Chairman. I do not understand that he denies the jus '.ice of the people's contention. He claims that the Congress of the United States has tied him up so that he is unable to afford the relief. I do not believe it, but the Secretary believes it. Mr. Hudson. Well, what shall we do ? Senator Teller. Better wait till after the 4th of March and try with the new man who will then come in. It is said that there is to be a new Secretary afcer the 4th of March, and probably that is correct. Mr. Hudson. I hope so. Senator Teller. There is a large company of persons hoping in the same direction. [Laughter.] _ Mr. Hudson. Now, gentlemen, in all serioiisress, if we have a right there these people are not able to go into the higher courts of the United States and obtain their right and compete with that coal company. The Chairman. The Congress of the United States, I think, bel'eve tiiat they have already protected your rights. Now, in what other way can we act? Mr. Hudson. From the discussion here I believe, or at least I hope, that there will be some action taken with reference to these segregated coal lands. There is no question that this is a part of the surface of FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 995 the segregated coal lands, and it will be very easy to put in that bill a provision for the disposition of these lots. Senator Teller. Yes ; that would be very easy, but it is very doubtful whether at a short session of Congress there would be a dis- position to do that. Mr. Htidson. There is one good thing about it; we are in posses- sion of the lots and improvements. Senator Teller. Nobody is disturbing you ? Mr. Hudson. No; but still there is an xmeasiness, and we want title. It is not ouly so in Wilburton but there are other tenants in this coal belt who are in the same fix. At Alderson thes-e are lots in the same situation, with improvements. Coal has been taken out there from under the improvements and has been taken out from under the improvements in the greater part of these cases, and the company has now absolutely no use for this property. The Chairman. What does the company say about it now? Mr. Hudson. They still want the improvements. The Chairman. They still want the lands reserved? Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir. It has been four years since the lots were reserved and the conapany have not driven a stake there. If you put these 65 vacant lots on the market there they will sell at from $100 to $250 apiece, and still this coal company wants to hold them up. We ask, as we have this opportunity, that we may get some relief. Senator Clark, of Montana. What company is this ? Mr. Hudson. The Great Western Coal and Coke Company. I will say this, too, for the benefit of the committee and of the record, that we have individuals here, men that were there when the town site was laid out, and we can show that the Great Western Coal and Coke Company had their superintendent there with tiie man that laid out the town site, and that representative of the coal and coke company went around and showed him where to drive the stakes for the hmits of the town that went over on their lease. After all that they come and ask that this be reserved. I believe that in all justice and equity we are entitled to relief. That is all I have to say. The Chairman. You said you had certain affidavits of the engi- neers. Have you any papers which you wish to leave with the committee ? Mr. Hudson. I have an affidavit of the citizen of Wilburton that was with them. I will leave that with the committee. The affidavit is as follows : AFFIDAVIT OP W. T. MICKLB. Indian Territory, Central District. ' My name is W. T. Mickle; my home is at Wilburton, Ind. T. ; I have lived at Wilbur- ton for the last twelve years; I lived at Wilburton during the year ; I was present when the Government surveyor come to Wilburton to survey the town and make plat of the same; the surveyor's name was Jones. Mr. Jones came to Wilburton about the • . I was one of the committee to taeet the surveyor and ask him to make the corporation as large as he could, and when we had a talk with Mr. Jones he told us to see the coal company, and see where they would agree for the lines to be established, and we then sent a man to see Mr. Degnan, and he told us where he would agree for the west line to be, and we saw the superintendent of the Wilburton Coal and Mining Company, and he told us that he would have to have a few days to give his answer in; on the second day after this the superin- tendent of the Wilburton Coal and Mining Company, Mr. Canovin, came down from 996 FIVE CIVTLIZBD TRIBES. the office of the company to the east end of town and showed us and Mr. Jones where to run the lines of the town on the east side of the town, and showed where to make the offsets and jogs. Mr. Canovin said that if we nm the lines of the town there that it would be agreeable with the company and that there would be no trouble on the part of the company. When Mr. Canovin had showed us where the company wished the east line to be run and we had seen where the west line would have to be to have no trouble with the Degnan lease, we thought that it would be too small for a town and were of the opinion that we would not accept it that way, but after we had had a taSk with Mr. Jones, the surveyor, we decided to take what we could get without any trouble, and Mr. Jones run the lines accordingly. Mr. Canovin was the superintendent of the Wilburton Coal and Mining Company's business here and had charge of all the business at this place, and made contracts and bought material and sold the same as he thought best to the company's interest. Since that time the property that then belonged to the Wilburton Coal and Mining Company has been transferred to the Great Western Coal and Coke Company, and the parties that were interested in the former company are still interested in the holdings of the latter company, having the same president. After we had accepted the lines as designated by the company we notified the Wilburton Coal and Mining Company that we had accepted the lines and that they would be run where the company desired them. Walter T. Micklb. I, W. T. Mickle, do solemnly swear that the foregoing statements are true and cor- rect to the best of my knowledge and belief, so help me God. Walter T. Micklb. Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 17th day of January, 1905. [seal.] E. E. I^estee, Notary Public. ' The following memorial was filed with the committee: MEM0H1A.L OF THE CITIZENS OF STIGLEE, CHOCTAW NATION, OWNING IMPROVEMENTS ON SEGREGATED LANDS. We, the citizens of the Choctaw Nation, owning improvements on segregated land, in mass meeting assembled on the 17th day of November, 1906, do hereby adopt the ■following resolutions and memorial to be conveyed by delegation from this convention to the Senatorial committee at South McAlester: First. There are 27,000 acres of land segregated around Stigler. Second. A great quantity of this land is in a high state of cultivation, which has been the homes of citizens for years. These citizens looked forward to these places for many years as their final allotments, but were forced to abandon the same and look for allot- ments elsewhere. By reason of such segregation said citizens were compelled to take allotments less favorable and in many instances of very much less value. Third. Large amounts of money have been spent in opening and developing this land aside from the fencing and buildings, which have never been taken into account by the Government. We believe we ought to be paid for this in addition to payment for improvements heretofore appraised. Fourth. Many of our citizens have expended all they had improving land that is segregated, and are unable to improve their new allotments until they are reimbursed for expenditure on the old. We therefore favor speedy settlement with citizens hold- ing improvements on segregated land. Fifth. Many of us have been born and reared on this segregated land, and have become endeared to it as our home, which neither time nor progress can erase from our memory. We believe that we ought, as a matter of right, to have preference to pur- chase as much of said land as our improvements cover, not to exceed 160 acres, at a price not to exceed the appraised value. Sixth. We believe it is to the best interests of the citizens and of the country at large that the restrictions be removed from all lands except homesteads. Seventh. We have been allotted up to section lines. We are now asked to open roads and take same from our allotments. We believe we should be repaid for lands taken for public highways. We therefore memorialize the Senatorial committee to urge Congress to enact such legislation as will guarantee to us such rights as they may feel we are entitled to from the facts herein set out. Very respectfully, J. S. Stiglek, President. R. L. Coleman, Secretary. PIVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. 997 STATEMENT OF MB. JAMES O. POOL. The Chairman. State your place of residence. Mr. Pool. South McAlester, Ind. T. I represent descendants of original Mississippi Choctaws. The Chairman. You may proceed with such statements as you desire to make. Mr. Pool. I wanted to say, Mr. Chairman, that there are a number of Indians who are deprived of enrollment because of the fact that their people were brought here from the State of Mississippi in the early days under the treaty of 1830, and because of the fact that there were no rolls kept by the Nations and no rolls made until the year 1893 in connection with what is known as the lease-payment matter'. There was a partial roll made in 1885, as shown by the reports of the Dawes Commission, but it was only a partial roll and not a genuine roll. Those two rolls are the only rolls by which they have to be gov- erned for the purpose of enrolling Indians. They claim that they have no right to enroll Indians by blood who failed to apply prior to the year 1896; that since that time they are deprived of that right and that the yean enroll none except Mississippi Choctaws. Here sit some orphan children (indicating) whose grandparents were brought from the State of Mississippi by the Government, who had ofFspnng grown into womanhood, one of which was the mother of these children, a full-blood Choctaw Indian woman, born in Indian Territory, and raised by the Indians, and when her father departed this life and after- wards her mother, the estate was administered on in the Indian courts and old man Gardner was appointed as the guardian of these children. They are half-breed Choctaws. They are not one-eighth, as are many of those who sit around here. They are half-breed Choctaws, bom and reared here, and yet they are deprived of enrollment because none of their parents appear on the original roll. They had two uncles, but they are dead, and they are the last — these orphan children. There were no rolls kept from the time of the advent into this country of those people up to 1893, except that partial roll in 1885. That is shown by the report of the Dawes Commission in two or three different reports to the Secretary. And because of the fact that there is no roll showing the enrollment of their parents, who died before these rolls were made, these children are denied enrollment here in Indian Territory. My business before you is to show you that they are deprived of their rights because of this fact, and to ask you to grant them such relief as will give them enrollment. The Dawes Commission claim that their application was too late. They apphed to the Commis- sion. They had nobody to instruct them. Their appUcation was made on the 25th day of September, 1902, the very identical day that the treaty was ratified, and they are said to be too late. That is a pretty strict construction. Senator Long. How many of them are there in this class? Mr. Pool. Five of them; two sisters and two brothers whom you see behind them, and there is another sister. Senator Long. How many in the whole nation? Mr. Pool. About twenty famiHes, sir. There (indicating) sits another Indian woman who was bom and reared in the State of Mississippi, in the Indian territory, of Indian parentage, full blood on 998 FIVE CIVILIZED TRTBEg. her mother's side and on her father's side three-quarters, which makes her seven-eighths Choctaw. She came to this country herself and she is deprived of enrollment because she does not appear on some of the rolls made by the people here. She has been in this Ter- ritory for twenty years. Senator Long. She did not apply in time ? Mr. Pool. Yes, sir; she applied in time. They denied her the right to apply as a Choctaw by blood because she failed to apply in 1896. She appeared in the year 1900, and they refused her a right to apply as an Indian by blood, and forced her to apply as a Mississippi Choc- taw. These people are denied any rights or consideration as Indians by blood. Mr. McMuERAY. Are they admitted as citizens? Mr. Pool. No. Senator Teller. Why were they not admitted ? Mr. Pool. They are not admitted as Mississippi Choctaws. Really these could not be, because their parents were born and raised here; and their parents again were brought here by the Government. Therefore, they are not fourteenth-article citizens and could not be admitted as Mississij)pi Choctaws. The Chairman. Still you applied for admission to the rolls? Mr. Pool. We did it for a record. We had to do it. Senator Long. And they were rejected? Mr. Pool. They were rejected. Senator Teller. Did these children have any guardians? Mr. Pool. Their guardians died and they had none. Mr. McMuRRAY. Where had they been living? Mr. Pool. Right here in Durant. There are plenty of Indians here who know them. John Frazier is their grandfather and Lorinda Frazier is their mother. There are 57 Indians who have signed a petition asking their enrollment. We claim that under the act of 1898, which my friend Mr. Cornish to-day failed to talk about (he skipped that act altogether), jumping from 1896 to 1902), would give us relief. Here is what the Attorney-General says about it in the Long case: The Attorney-General further holds that the only limitation imposed by Congress and the laws of the United States is the provision of the act of June 28, 1898 (30 Stat., 495-503), that no person shall be enrolled who has not heretofore removed to and in good faith settled in the nation in which he claims citizenship. Now, speaking of the act of 1896, the Attorney-General says: So far as a bar is raised by the laws of the United States, it is sufficient if all claimants to citizenship in the Five Civilized Tribes removed to and permanently settled in the Indian tribe wherein he claims to be enrolled prior to June 28, 1898. Then upon proof of blood and residence of those who were in the Indian Territory prior to 1898, in accordiance with the act of 1898 itself and also as construed by the Attorney-General and approved by E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary, those people would be entitled to enroll- ment, but the Commission does not so hold. Yet it is the law. Senator Teller. Why do you not take an appeal to the Secretary? Mr. Pool. It would amount to nothing, sir. Senator Teller. Why did you not do it ? Mr. Pool, f did, sir. Senator Long. What did he do ? Mr. Pool. He sustained the decision of the Commission. Senator Long. What do you want Congress to do ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 999 Mr. Pool. To pass an act by which these people can be reHeved. Senator Long. What would you suggest as to the kind of act ? Mr. Pool. I filed a paper there with those suggestions. Senator Teller. Do you want a special act? Senator Long. Do you want Congress to enroll them by name ? Mr. Pool. Either a special act or if necessary enroll them by name. I suggested that some years ago, and it was said that there wo; Id be too many, but this last Congress did that very thing for Tams Bixby, the Commissioner — passed an act enrolling four or five persons. Senator Teller. This last Congress ? Mr. Pool. This last Congress — ^yes, sir. I was in Washington when Congress passed the act and I have a copy of the bill. And Gov. Greene McCurtain says, " There are many Choctaws who have not seci red enrollment, and these poor deluded people have no standing with Hitchcock." It is of no use to appeal to Mr. Hitchcock, accord- ing to Governor McCi rtain, the governor of this nation. The Chairman. Does the paper which you have filed contain the names of those parties ? Mr. Pool. No, sir; it does not contain the names. It jvst gives the name of their mother. I will be in Washington by the time you get there and I will furnish you with those. When Senator Quarles and Congressman Curtis came down here I presented to them those Indians with others — about 20 of them. They shook hands and expressed great surprise at the idea of so many white people being on the roll. The representatives and officers of the nations appeared to be all white people and these were Indians. Those gentlemen promised that we ' would get relief, but we did not get it. No one can deny that these people are Indians. Every man can see that they are Indians. Mr. McMuRRAY. You can not tell by looking at them that they are Choctaws. Mr. Pool. The proof shows that they are Choctaws and we do not need another syllable of testimony. Now, gentlemen, this old lady here came to this country some twenty years ago, starting from the State of Mississippi when she was a girl of some 12 years of age. They got as far as Arkansas, I believe, when her mother took sick and they had to stop. WTiile there her mother died and by the time her mother died her father was taken sick and was sick six months, when he died. She was kept by some white people ulitil she was able to marry and then they proceeded on and they have been here twenty years. The truth is her grandfather and grandmother were both full-blood Indians, and the records of the Government show that they took lands in the Choctaw Nation, Mississippi. As to her grandmother and her grand- father on her father's side, the testimony shows that the old man was a half-breed or three-q carters, I forget which, and her mother was a full-blood Choctaw, and after the child, the father of this woman, got up to be some size they separated and both the father and the mother took land in Mississippi and Alabama, as shown on the record, as Mis- sissippi Choctaws, owning land under the fourteenth article of the treaty of 1830 both as a Mississippi Choctaw and a Choctaw by blood. Senator Teller. Did she make her application? Mr. Pool. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. In due time ? Mr. Pool. Yes; in due time, except that they refused her the application by blood. Her version of the matter was that it made 1000 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. no diflference, an Indian was an Indian if he possessed the blood, and no man was an Indian unless he had the Indian blood. So long as they had the blood they constituted Indians. i'he Chairman. What was the reason for rejecting her as a Mis- sissippi Choctaw? Mr. Pool. They rendered only one reason on earth, in some 1,300 cases that I have looked at — "The testimony is insufficient." That is the way they do it. I have filed motion after motion asking that they be forced to tell the status of these people — ^filed them before the Secretary of the Interior, and they have turned a deaf ear to the motions. The Chairman. Have you seen the record of the testimony in her case? Mr. Pool. Yes, sir ; I have copies of it. Mr. McMuRRAY. There was a clause in the bill last winter pro- viding that in this kind of cases — such straggling people — while the Nation did not object, the Commission might enroll — ^just such a case as jou claim this to be. Did you present this to the nation? Mr. Pool. The Commission held that there was only one indi- vidual in the Choctaw Nation that that covered That was Esau Wolf, and it held his mother as an intermarried citizen, and Esau as a full blood. The Chairman. Then the nation must have objected? Mr. Pool. There has never been any objection that I know of by the nation to the enrollment of any of them, never. There is not a syllable of such testimony on file in those cases. The Chairman. Has the nation ever consented to the enrollment ? Mr. Pool. No, sir; They would not consent to the emollment of anybody on earth. The Chairman. Has the matter ever been presented to the nation in regard to the enrollment of these children? Mr. Pool. Yes, sir; it has been presented to it. There was a peti- tion of 67 full bloods asking their enrollment, and besides that, attor- neys have made application in their behalf, showing that they were clearly entitled to it. The Chairman. Let me ask to whom that petition was addressed? Mr. Pool. To the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, and filed as part of the records. The Chairman. You did not understand my question, I think. Has the consent of the Choctaw Nation ever been asked to the enroll- ment of these children? Mr. Pool. No, sir; not that I know of. You mean their council? The Chairman. Yes; I mean the "nation," whatever that is. Mr. McMurrat. He said the Choctaw Nation never admits that anybody should be enrolled. That is not true. Mr. Pool. I would like to know The Chairman. Let that pass. What I was trying to get at is whether this matter was ever presented to the Choctaw Nation? Senator Teller. As to these children, there was nobody to rep- resent them. Their parents were dead? Mr. Pool. Yes. Senator Ieller. They had no guardian? Mr. Pool. No, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1001 Senator Teller. And they were incapable of making application; they could not express even the desire. It seems to me that the Com- mission ought to do something under those circumstances. I do not think the rule applies to minors. Mr. Pool. The father and mother of these children lived in Illi- nois. Just before this payment was made, or about that time, the old lady was about to die, and sent for her son to wait on li»r. He took these children and went up there, and the old lady died. Then the mother of these children took sick, waiting on her, and she died, and the only way the children got back here was to have their con- nections in Durant send them money. Senator Long. When was that ? Mr. Pool. I met them in Muskogee in 1902, before they got to Durant, and presented them there to the Dawes Commission. Senator Teller. I do not see what we can do about it now. You can leave the papers and we will consider it. I think that if I repre- sented them I should apply to the tribal authorities to see if they would not admit them. Senator Clakk, of Montana. If the Choctaw Nation made no objec- tion would the Commission enroll them? Mr. Pool. I do not think it would. Senator Clark, of Montana. If the Choctaw Nation admitted it, would the Commission then enroll them? Mr. Pool. I do not think it would. Senator Clark, of Montana. You think nothing short of an act of Congress will do ? Ih. Pool. I think so. Mr. McMxjRRAY. The Choctaw and Chickasaw nations are just as anxious to get all the citizens as anybody can possibly be. They do not want to leave any proper citizen of the Choctaw Nation out, and if these people are citizens of the Choctaw Nation, if the matter had been presented within the time named in the bill, the Choctaw Nation would make no objection. Further than that, it has been as much our duty, under the instructions of the government of the nation to see that the citizens themselves are enrolled as to see that those who are not entitled to it are kept off the roll. And as much labor and work has been done to secure the admission of proper citizens as to keep off the others. Senator Clark, of Montana. Has there ever been presented the ques- tion of minors claiming to be, or representing themselves to be, entitled to enrolhnent, unable to act themselves, but by attorney? Mr. Pool. Yes. Senator Clark, of Montana. Have there been instances of that kind passed on by the Commission? Mr. McMuRRAT. Yes. I spoke of those people as "straggling peo- ple." I do not mean to cast any reflection on the children. I meant straggling people all over the country, who have failed to get to the Commission one way or another. They have been picked up from time to time and have been put on the rolls. Senator Clark, of Montana. I am speaking of minors. Mr. MoMxiRRAT. Yes; minors and grown people. In discussing the matter with Senator Piatt, of Connecticut, his idea was that we had better not pass any general law. His idea was that we get a list of the people, and we did that. . 1002 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Claek, of Montana. These children, being minors, ought certainly to be able to be protected by Congress. Mr. McMtjreay. If they are citizens. He says that Governor McCurtain knows thece citizens. Senator Teller. If they are citizens they can not be shut out by being minors. Mr. McMtjreay. Nobody wants to shut them out. The Choctaw Nation does not. Mr. Pool. You asked me awhile ago if they had made application or call upon the government. The Choctaw government appointed a commission to go around and enroll the delinquents that Mr. McMur- ray calls "stragglers" — those that had failed to be eiu-oUed. That committee went and took dinner with these children and took theit names and said that they would attend to it and that they would be enrolled — and that is the last we heard of it. Senator Long. When was that ? Mr. Pool. About two years ago. The Chairman. That would rather indicate that the authorities were in favor of enrollment — that the mistake would be corrected. Senator Long. You never asked them? Mr. Pool. As I have told you; they sent a committee and the com- mittee took the children's names. The Chairman. I said that it looked as if they had intended to enroll them. It was perhaps overlooked. Mr. Pool. They were taken as delinquents and that meant those who had failed. Senator Long. Is that commission still in existence ? Mr. Pool. Not now, I think. Senator Brandegee. They could not put them on the roll. They could not decide it, anyway. When you come to Washington bring your testimony — your affidavits. Senator Clark, of Montana. Bring all the papers. Senator Teller. I think you had better apply, though, to the tribe. Senator Long. I think you had better apply here, rather than in Washington. Senator Teller. I think so, too. The Chairman. Apply to the tribe. Mr. Pool. It may be, but I will never believe it until I see it, be- cause I know too much about them. The officers of the Nation do not want to cut us out. It is not the Choctaw people that want to cut us out. They are willing. The people of Choctaw blood in the Nation are willing. The Chairman. I will guarantee that if you get the authority of -the Choctaw Nation to enroll theiri there will not be any trouble about it. Senator Long. You say that Governor McCurtam knows them? Mr. Pool. He knows their parents. There is hardly an Indian of full age here that does not know the family. Mr. Pool filed the following papers: CHOCTAW AND CHICKASAW INDIAN CLAIMANTS — SKETCH OP KECORDS OF APPLICANTS, CAUSES FOR REMEDY, AND SUGGESTED REMEDY. Sallie Berryman et al. This claimant denied enrollment because she failed to apply in 1896. She was bom and raised in the Choctaw Nation, Mississippi; her mother a fuU blood Choctaw, and her father a three-quarter Choctaw; from there to the Indian PIVB CIVILIZED TBIBE8. 1003 Territory; been living in the Indian Territory twenty years. Her record complete, testimony positive, and petition with 53 full blood, leading Choctaw citizens of the Choctaw Nation asking her enrollment in record. Mary R. Johnson et al. Denied by the Commission because she did not make her application in 1896 by blood. She was born and partly raised in the Choctaw Nation, Mississippi; from there direct to the Indian Territory, Choctaw Nation. While a giri married in the Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, and has a family she raised here; have lived here about thirty-two years. Her record complete, blood thoroughly proven, and also thoroughly proven that her ancestor was a fourteenth-article claimant, but rejected on both counts. Lorina Frazieretal. Full blood Choctaw Indian; born and raised here in the Choc- taw Nation, Indian Territory. Her parents were brought here by the Government in the thirties. She married a white man; she is now dead; her children denied; the record is proven; proof is positive as to her rights. Joseph Johnson et al. Was living in the Indian Territory when the war broke out between the North and South, and enlisted in the Confederate army as a Choctaw Indian from the Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory; was known in the army as Indian Joe; record complete, thoroughly proven, yet denied. Victoria Boyd et al. Came to the Indian Territory some fifteen or twenty years ago. Her record as to her Indian blood is complete, also a complete record showmg that she is a descendant of Nellie Dyre, a fourteenth-article citizen, yet denied on both counts. John Scarborough et al. and sister, Nannie Dunnam et al. Their father was brought from the State of Mississippi by the Government, under the treaty of 1830. When a young man he killed another Indian in the Choctaw Nation and was tried by the Indian cotuts; found guilty and sentenced to be shot, and was to return on a certain day to be executed. He ran away; went to Texas; to a county there that is composed of In- dians; he married; these two children are the fruits of his marriaee; he died; after they got to be some size their mother died, and they came immedfately to the Terri- tory, and have been living in the Indian Territory for some sixteen or twenty years. Their record is complete, well proven, yet they are denied. John Scarborough et al., of Durant. Now 82 years old; been living in the Indian Territory for a number of years; no doubt as to his Indian blood, thoroughly proven, but denied enrollment. J. L. Duke et al. Direct from Mississippi to the Indian Territory; been living here some twelve or fifteen years. His case is well proven, record complete, yet he is denied. J. A. Cummins et al. Been living in Indian Territory two years. His record is complete, blood thoroughly proven, all his relations on the rolls except himself and one sister, yet he is denied. Nancy Cummins et al. Have been living in the Indian Territory for twenty-seven years; record complete; her people all enrolled, yet she is denied. Dunwood Bowen et al. Just from Mississippi here by the solicitation of Tams Bixby himself; would not have come here had it not of been for Tams Bixby telling him to move over here and he would eiiroll him, yet he is denied. Frances Wren et al. Has been living in the Indian Territory for fifteen years; a descent of a fourteenth-article Mississippi Choctaw; case thoroughly proven, yet she is denied. J. T. Taylor et al. Has been living in the Territory for a number of years; record complete, thoroughly proven, denied enrollment. R. C. Barron et al. Have been in the Territory, most of them for sixteen or eighteen years, some for ten or twelve; case complete, records thorough, refused eiu'ollment. S. D. Gaines et al. Bom and raised in the Choctaw Nation, Miss.; direct from there to the Indian Territory; has been residing in the Territory for eighteen years; blood thoroughly proven, arid the Commission says he has a right; without remedy. W. H. Harper et al. Has been living in the Indian Territory for twenty-five years; rights undisputed; their case thoroughly proven; descents of fourteenth-article Mississippi Choctaws, yet denied. J^aura Vanderslice et al. Have been in the Indian Territory for a number of years; she and her sister, both of the same father and mother, appeared before the Commis- sion at the same time together; the Commission enrolled her sister and children, and denied her. , . . -. , . All the above applicants were denied the right of making application as Indians by blood, because they failed to apply in 1896, and was forced by the Commission to apply as Mississippi Choctaws, in order to get a record. Now, in all these above cases there is no opposition, not a syllable ot testimony filed against them, and no opposition made whatever to their enrollment; yet tJiey are denied. 1004 FIVE CIVrLIZED TRIBES. Tennessee Askew et al. One half-breed Choctaw and negro; her parents and herself are on the 1893 rolls; drew lease district money; these parties are enrolled, as negroes, and the Commission refuses to transfer them to the In'dian rolls, by blood ; no opposition to it. Docias Compton et al. Married a McClish, a full-blood Chickasaw Indian, accord- ing to the Chickasaw laws; has two children; applied in the year 1900, and the Com- mission just fails to pass on her case, though often requested. Nancy Fulsom et al. Man-ied Daniel Fulsom, full-blood Choctaw Indian, accord- ing to the Choctaw laws; had one child, died, and they have failed to pass on her case, though often requested. Ester Ann Collins et al. Married a Chickasaw Indian, and Thomas Collins married a Choctaw Indian; they were both left widow and widower; they then married one another, and the Commission enrolled Tom Collins, but refused to enroll his wife and children, fruits of her marriage with Tom Collins; yet they enrolled several others of the same status exactly; for instance, Alex. Hamilton and wife, of Indianola,, exactly like the above; the Commission enrolled him and his wife and children. CAUSES FOR REMEDY. In the opinion of Wm. H. H. Clayton, judge of the central district of the Indian Territory, m citizenship cases, appealed to his court, in case No. 158, Jack Amos et al. V. The Choctaw Nation, in which said judge, in a very long and elaborate opinion upon the treaties and laws, holds, "That if ever they removed to the Indian Territory, they are to enjoy all the privileges of a Choctaw citizen, except that of participating in their annuities," and quotes act of Choctaw Council of December 24, 1898: "Whereas there are large numbers of Choctaws yet in States of Mississippi and Louis- iana who are entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizenship in the Choctaw Nation; and whereas they are denied all right of citizenship in said States; and whereas they are too poor to emigrate themselves into the Choctaw Nation, therefore, be it resolved by the Choctaw Council of the Choctaw Nation assembled, that the United States Government is hereby requested to make provision for the emigration of said Choctaws from said States to the Choctaw Nation, etc." Judge Clayton also holds, in case No. 2, E. J. Horn v. The Choctaw Natioii, "That by the fourteenth article of the treaty between the United States and the Choctaw Nation, negotiated on the 27th of September, 1830, as interpreted by this court, in the aforesaid case of Jack Amos et al. ■!;. The Choctaw Nation, 'All Mississippi Choc- taws and their descendants were entitled, upon their removal to the Chocta.w Nation, to all the privileges of a Choctaw citizen, except the right of participating in their annuities. This right of citizenship being conferred by the treaty, no law afterwards enacted by the Choctaw Council can deprive them of that right, because it would be in conflict with the treaty which confers that right to them and their descendants, without reference to the quantity of Indian blood.' " The act of Congress of June 28, 1898 (30 Stat., 495, 503), says: "That no person shall be enrolled who has not heretofore removed to and in good faith settled in the nation in which he claims citizenship," etc. The Attorney-General, Frank L. Campbell, says: "In the James S., Joseph, Forbis, and Lula F. Long casf, approved by E. A. Hitchcock, Secretary of the Interior, on February 19, 1906, as follows: 'The view taken by the United States courts for the Indian Territory, acting on cases appealed from decisions of the Dawes Commis- sion, in citizenship cases, under the act of June 10, 1896 (29 Stat., 321, 339), says that (1) Mississippi (or absentee) Choctaws whose ancestors or themselves had never removed to the nation were not entitled to be enrolled, but (2) that one who had heretofore actually removed to the nation was entitled to be enrolled as a citizen, with all rights,' " etc. The Attorney-General further holds in the same case, "That the only limitation imposed by Congress and the laws of the United States is the provision of the act of June 28, 1898 (30 Stat., 495, 503), that no person shall be enrolled who has not here- tofore removed to and in good faith settled in the nation in which he claims citi^en- ehip, so far as a bar is raised of the laws of the United States, it is sufficient, if all claimants to citizenship in the Five Civilized Tribes removed to and permanently settled in the Indian tribe wherein he claims to be enrolled prior to June 28, 1898." We pray for an act of Congress authorizing the enrollment of all applicants in which the records now on file show that they were residents of the Indian Territory prior to June 28, 1898, or a special act authorizing the enrollment of certain persons coming FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1005 within the above requirements, where the proof shows that they are possessed of Indian blood and residents of said nation. These people all applied for enrollment in 1900. Mr. Pool subsequently filed the following : CLAIM or GARLAND HEIRS AGAINST THE CHOCTAW NATION. In the year 1855 there was due the Choctaw Nation about $3,000,000, the same being the "net proceeds" claimed, .and in order to collect this claim the Choctaw Nation employed a committee, consisting of Samuel Garland, Peter P. Pitchlynn, Israel Folsom, and Dixon W. Lewis, who were known as the committee of 1855. The legislature of the Choctaw Nation entered into a contract with these parties for the payment of 20 per cent to them of the -amount recovered against the United States. This claim was prosecuted through the Court of Claims by said committee jointly, but immediately prior to the payment of the final judgment Samuel Garland died. The legislature of the Choctaw Nation passed an act providing for the payment of this committee after the case was decided, November 15, 1886 (119 IJ. 8., 1), which was the date of the judgment. Under this act, after the money had been recovered, there was made by the Choctaw Nation a settlement in full of the claims of Lewis and Folsom, and in part only that of Pitchlynn and Garland heirs. The heirs of Samuel Garland and of Peter P. Pitchlynn refused to receipt in full for anything less than the full amount of the individual interest of Peter Pitchlynn and Samuel Garland, and subsequently the Choctaw legislature appropriated the necessary money to pay the balance of these claims, which have never been contested, but the bill was vetoed by the governor, upon the ground that the nation did not, at the time it was passed by the Choctaw legislature have sufficient funds to satisfy and make payment in full of these claims. They are straight, legitimate claims, for sarvices satisfactorily rendered under the contract for the recovery of the money due the nation, in which the nation was successful, and recovered about $3,000,000. The fees agreed to be paid for these services were to be divided among all of the members of the com- mittee who prosecuted the case, and Peter Pitchlynn, it is admitted, practically gave his life to the prosecution of the claim, and the services of Samuel Garland were never contested or denied. A large portion of the trust funds of the Choctaws, which are now deposited in the Treasury of the United States in Washington, were recovered in this case, but none of the committee except Lewis and Folsom have been settled with in full. Pitchlynn and Garland, however, have always insisted upon a complete settlement. They have endeavored for years to obtain a full hearing and judgment upon this indebtedness. They do not want a cent which is not due under the agreement made by the nation with them for the services rendered by them, but they do insist that the amount which is their due may be found and adjudged them by a court of competent jurisdiction, which can make the fullest judicial examination of the facts. The services of the claimants. Garland and Pitchlynn, as aforesaid, cover a period of about thirty years. The legal proceedings are reported in two volumes in the Court of Claims. Under contract made by the Choctaw Nation with the aforesaid committee, a suit for the recovery of their funds was prosecuted and judgment obtained. The attorney's fees in the case should have been made a lien upon that judgment. They were not so made a lien; hence the necessity of a suit to determine them and provision for their payment prior to the going out of existence of Indian governments. Under the law this could not be, so the heirs of Samuel Garland and Peter Pitchlynn have waited patiently, knowing that this was a proper, just, and fair indebtedness due from the Choctaw Nation, and that the nation had the money placed and remain- mg to its credit in the Treasury of the United States, through their services and those of other members of the committee. • The committee received from the nation no money wherewith to pay the necessary expenses of the suit. They paid out their own money therefor, Garland and Pitchlynn among the others, but when the Choctaw legislature took the matter m hand' they settled with all of the members of the committee except Garland and Pitchlynn, the settlement being made by means of an appropriation and payment of about one-third of the amount legally due them. The heirs of Samuel Garland and the heus of Pitchlynn refused to receipt in full. They have never done so, and it is respectfully submitted that under the present circumstances no wrong can be done the nation m permitting the proper adjudication of this matter by the Court of Claims. The last Congress in the Indian appropriation bill granted the heirs of Peter Pitch- lynn the right to bring suit and adjudicate their claim before the United States Court of Claims, and this leaves only the heirs of Samuel Garland asking for this relief. 1006 PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Peter Pitchljnm and Samuel Garland were brothers-in-law and were Jointly interested in the contract with the Indian Territory for the recovery of a judgment as above indicated. If it is right — which it is — a just right, for the heirs of Peter Pitchlynn to adjudicate their claim, it is equally fair, right, and justice to Samuel Garland's heirs that they be granted the same right to adjudicate their claim as that of the Pitchlynn heirs. Wherefore we pray for an act of Congress granting this right to the heirs of Samuel Grarland. We therefore respectfully submit and ask your honors for the relief as above indicated and will ever pray, etc. W. N. Redwine. Pressly Cole. ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MR. J. GEORGE WRIGHT, UNITED STATES INDIAN INSPECTOR. The Chaikman. I believe, Mr. Wright, you wanted to be heard at this place on some matter. Inspector Wright. Yes; under the present law (the act of April 26, 1906), section 11 provides that all the outstanding indebtedness of the diflferent tribes here should be paid by the Secretary of the Interior after investigation as to their va^dity. The Secretary, for reasons which he deemed proper, held up the payments of the Choctaw Nation a short time prior to that, but I will not take up the time of the com- mittee on this particular occasion to discuss that, unless it is desired. The present law, since April 26, requires that before any claims or outstanding warrants can be paid they must be examined by the Department to ascertain if they are valid. The authorities of the Choctaw Nation have not seen proper to permit the representatives of the Department to have free access to their books, to make that exam- ination, and until that is done, and that examination is made, those outstanding warrants can not be paid. An examination a short time ago of the outstanding warrants in the Chickasaw Nation has revealed the fact that there are some 140,000 outstanding, which in all probability had once been paid by that nation, and those warrants are^;ain in circulation, and will ulti- mately have to be again paid. Whether that condition exists in the Choctaw Nation or not nobody pretends to say, but under the existing law an examination is required to be made of their records before their outstanding indebtedness may be paid, and as soon as the Choc- taw authorities will permit an examination of their records to ascer- tain what is legally outstanding that outstanding indebtedness can be paid. A special agent was sent here by the Secretary soon after the pas- sage of that act to make that examination. He has been here, ready to make that examination, since about the 1st of June. At that time, upon appUcation to the Choctaw authorities, they decUned to permit him to have access to their records. Therefore he has concluded the examination of the Chickasaw records. Now, there has been in each of the other nations, on investigation from time to time, a discovery of a great deal of fraudulent warrants issued, and until an examination is made of the records of the Choc- taw Nation payment can not be made. Some years ago there was an appropriation of 175,000 to pay the outstanding indebtedness of the Choctaw Nation after an examination of the records. When an exam- ination was to be made, and before Mr. Ziveley could proceed to FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1007 make the examination, unfortunately the office or building in which the records was kept were destroyed by fire. As I say, as to the Chickasaw Nation, they passed a resolution about two years ago asking Congress to appropriate $250,000 of their invested funds for the purpose of paying their outstanding school indebtedness. Congress made that appropriation and directed that before it should be paid the Secretary should make an examination, an investigation, and ascertain that that outstanding indebtedness was valid. The inspector was directed by the Secretary to make that examination. He called upon the authorities of their present government to submit a list of all their school outstanding warrants. That list was pre- pared by the auditor of the Chickasaw Nation, who was the only officer of their nation authorized to issue these warrants. That list, prepared by him, and sworn to as being correct, was then referred to the treasurer of the Chickasaw Nation, to be sworn to as correct, that the warrants on that list had not been paid by him, and that they were still outstanding, and he made an affidavit of that fact. Then it was referred to the Indiaji agent, with directions to pay those warrants if found regular and right. Before the agent began to pay, he sent down to the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations and, for his own protection, secured a list from the treasurer of warrants that he had paid independent of this list which he had sworn that he had not paid, in order to have a double check. There were a number of war- rants presented to the agent for payment, among them four 11,000 warrants which were on the list furnished to the treasurer and sworn to by him as not having been paid by him. But upon examiaation of the list which had been paid by him those particular 11,000 warrants were found to be also on that list. The result was that that payment was held up and an inspector from the Department was sent down here to make an investigation. Prior to the time of his coming the present inspector sent to the Chickasaw Nation immediately, and upon investigation there it was found that prior to the time that that $250,000 was appropriated and prior to the time that the Chickasaw Nation passed that resolution the treasurer of the Chickasaw Nation had made a report to the governor that a lot of warrants which he had paid but had not marked "Paid" had been placed in a bank for safe- keeping at Tishomingo, in the Chickasaw Nation, and that during the time that they were in the bank that bank failed and the president of the bank is now a fugitive f^;om justice. An examination of that bank then developed the fact that those warrants which had been passed in there by the treasm-er of the Chickasaw Nation, which he had " paid " but had had not marked "Paid," had disappeared; and it devel- oped that about $20,000 of that $250,000 had been recirculated. It was also ascertained that of their "general-fund" warrants, which they paid themselves, as near as can be ascertained, about $40,000 had been put in recirculation in the same mamier. Now, as I say, these facts were known. In a report from the treas- urer of the nation to the governor of the Chickasaw Nation, and by him reported to their council, it is stated that a lot of those warrants had been put in recirculation or stolen out of the bank prior to the time that they passed that resolution asking Congress to appropriate that $250,000. The list was submitted to the inspector, sworn to by the treasurer, and yet neither the inspector nor any other official of the United States had ever been informed by the government of the 1008 nvB orvxLizED tbibes. nation or by any other person that those warrants had been in recir- culation, and it was certified to us that they were valid and out- standing. Senator Clark, of Montana. Did they pay them the second time, any of them, or did they refuse payment on them ? Inspector Wright. No, sir; they asked the Government to pay them, but we stopped payment. As a result of that investigation, several persons are under iadictment at the present time. Now, this present law provides that the outstanding indebtedness of the Choc- taw Nation shall be paid, but until their records are examined to ascer- tain the facts the Department declines to pay any of those warrants. The Chairman. Would that apply to tne salaries of officers as well as mine inspectors? • Inspector Wright. It applies to all at the present time. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is that the reason why the mining inspectors have not been paid? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir. Prior to the time of the passage of that act, after this development in the Chickasaw Nation tran- spired, the Secretary directed the Indian agent, in the absence of the inspector of the Treasury, to call on the Choctaw treasurer for a list of their receipts and disbursements, which the Choctaw authorities declined to furnish; and, therefore, in view of what had developed in the Chickasaw Nation the Secretary directed the Secretary of the Treasury to hold up their funds until an examination can be made of their records. That was prior to the passage of that act, about a month or so. Now, under existing law they must be examined, and the special agent here is ready to take up to-morrow that examination, which could be made in a few days. Just as soon as the Choctaw authorities will permit an examination of their records freely they can be paid; but in view of what transpired in the Chickasaw Nation, the inspector would not be at liberty to take a list which they might furnish, even though sworn to by them, and without any discredit to them, in view of what developed in the Chickasaw Nation. Senator Long. Have they declined to permit their records to be examined ? Inspector Wright. Yes; they have. Senator Clark, of Montana. Was the act of the treasurer judicially examined with regard to putting those vouchers in the bank? The vouchers that were not canceled, as I understand, were put into this bank? Inspector Wright. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Has the action of that treasurer been examined ? Inspector Wright. Yes; and he is under indictment. It seems that under the Chickasaw law the auditor would issue a warrant on the treasurer. They handle their own finances and pay indebted- ness for schools, etc. They did not have sufficient funds to pay their indebtedness, consequently these warrants accumulated, and so they asked Congress to appropriate $250,000 to pay these. Under the laws and customs over there, when the treasurer paid a warrant he would not stamp it "Paid," but would simply pay it and make no note on that warrant that it had been paid. He would hold those war- rants until the end of three months; then he and the auditor would go FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1009 over them together and stamp them "Paid." It was during the pre- vious three months that he had placed them in this bank. It appears that there are about $60,000 that had previously been paid. That is the situation at the present time. The Chairman. It is now some minutes after 11, and a fairly good day's work has been done. Our hearings at this place now come to a close. The committee desires to thank the people of this vicinity and those who have come from distant localities for the information that we have received. It will be of benefit, surely, to the committee, and we hope it may result in benefit to the people of the Indian Territory. The committee wishes also to extend thanks to the chamber of com- merce of this city for the facilities which they have afforded for the speedy dispatch of business, for the hall furnished, and for the kind treatment received. The committee now stands adjourned, to meet at Ardmore at 2.30 o'clock to-morrow afternoon. So the committee, at 11.30 p. m., adjourned, to meet at Ardmore, Ind. T., to-morrow, Wednesday, November 21, 1906, at 2.30 p. m. The following was received and filed at McAlester, Ind. T., Novem- ber 19, 1906: STATEMENT BY JOHN W. WILLMOTT, RBPEESBNTINS THE PEOPLE'S COMMTTTEB, OB COMMEECIAl CLUB, OF WEWOKA, IN THE SEMINOLE NATION, INDIAN TERRITORY. First. As to the sale of surplus lands by the advertisement system. The Seminole citizens and the white people residing in the Seminole Nation desire some legislation which will permit the Indian citizen (whether of mixed or full blood) to have a portion or all of his surplus lands advertised and sold by the sealed-bid system to the highest bidder, or such other similar system as Congress may adopt. As the law now stands, neither mixed nor full-blood citizens of this tribe may so advertise and sell their surplus. Only mixed-blood Creek Indians may do so. As to the sealed bid or advertisement system, however, we submit that at least one feature of it, as it is applied to-day to the sale of surplus lands of mixed-blood Creek Indians, is radically wrong, and this feature, if the system referred to is continued in the Creek Nation, and especially if it be extended in its operation to other tribes, ought to be changed. We refer to the regulation of the Secretary of the Interior requiring the purchase price to be paid in full upon the acceptance of the highest bid. The effect of this rule is to preclude the farmer from purchasing, and the records at Muskogee wOl show that above 90 per cent of the lands sold in the Creek Nation under this system have been purchased by corporations organized for the purpose of purchasing lands. It is thus seen that very little of the land passes first hand to the farmer, who must ulti- mately improve it and make it valuable and productive, but who is not able to pay for it all in cash at one time. The interest which might be earned by the Indian, if deferred payments were allowed, together with a large profit, goes to the land company, and it is submittep that because of this feature of requiring all the consideration to be paid in cash a hard- ship is worked upon the farming classes of the new State which does not mure to the benefit of the Indian citizen. i t ii Second. As to the removal of restrictions upon the alienation of the sm-plus of full- blood Indians, upon competency being shown. . , ^ ,. It is further desired by the people of my locality that full-blood Seminole Indians may be permitted to make application to and have their restrictions removed by the Secre- tary of the Interior when it shall be made to appear to the Department that they are competent to manage their own affairs and that it is for their best interests. Ihis privi- lege is now enjoyed by the mixed-blood Seminole, but the late Curtis Act excludes tlie fiUl blood of that tribefrom its benefit, however competent he may be. We submit that there are many full-blood Seminoles (as, no doubt, is the case m the other nations) who have enjoyed even unusual opportunities of education and experience, and who are thoroughly competent to control their estates, and it will be but just to these and to others would be an incentive to properly educate themselves and their children, to give them the full and free control of their estates when they shall be able to show tneir ability to manage them well. S. Bep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 — -65 1010 FIVE OrVTLIZBD TEIBES Third. As to the law governing the leasing of lands in the Seminole and Creek nations for agricultural purposes. The Seminole agreement of December 16, 1897, ratified by Congress July 1, 1898, under which the allotment has proceeded provided a means by which the Seminoles might lease their lands for agricultural purposes. It provided that the lease contracts should he drawn in triplicate, upon printed forms provided by the tribal government, and that before any such lease should become effective it should be approved by the principal chief of the nation and a copy thereof be filed in the office of the clerk of the United States court at Wewoka. Under this law an admirable lease system was developed, which was very satisfactory to the lessee, and fxilly protected the rights of the allottee. An act of 1904 removed the restrictions from the surplus of those not of Indian blood who were of full age, and the late Curtis bill prohibits the full blood from leasing his surplus for more than one year without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, and he can not lease bis homestead for more than one year, even with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, without making a showing that he is disabled by reason of age or other infirmity, and can not therefore work his homestead. So* that the original lease law of the Seminole Nation still applies to the homesteads of freedmen and to the entire allotments of mixed bloods, and such lands are being rapidly taken up and reduced to a state of cultivation and productiveness. Such leases, approved by the chief of the nation, stipulate for the payment of the taxes by the lessee when taxation shall come, the payment of cash royalties, and the improve- ment of the land. We make no reference to the allotments of minors, as they are within the control of the courts. But what is the condition of the full-blood Indian? He now finds himself perfectly helpless so far as being able to lease his allotment is concerned, and that is all he has; and we know we speak the plain truth when we say that he is left in a position which is nothing less than pitiable. No lessee can use the Indian's land, raw and unimproved, for one year. A one-year contract will not justify him in breaking the land and fencing it. And few farmers are willing to make application for the approval of a lease by the Department and make the bond and wait a number of months before he can know whether he has a lease or not. The time of taking these improvement leases in this country is the fall of the year, and the farmer argues that all of the improved land will be rented before he can hear as to the approval or disapproval of his lease, and if he should fail to get it approved he will not be able to find a home for the coming year and he will lose a crop. If it is approved, he will not know it until the first year has begun to run, and he will be able to clear very little land, and will consequently derive little benefit from the first year of his lease. So it is a fact, as the records at Muskogee will show, that the farmers are not taking leases on the full-blood lands, and the result is that the lands of the full blood lie idle, or he is forced to make an illegal contract which is never submitted for approval. The objectionable feature is the time necessarily consumed in getting the lease through the Department. It would be a great improvement if the approval could be left to an official residing within tiie new State, say the inspector or the agent. Then an appli- cant for a lease could know within a few days whether he was to receive a contract or not. As the situation now stands, the full blood can not secure hardly a dollar of income from his land, and what other source of revenue has he? Again, under this head, as to the homesteads of full b'oods, it is believed and sub- mitted that they ought to be permitted to lease their homesteads in the same manner as the surplus. Many of the fuU bloods are women; these certainly, and also many of the men, are wholly unable to improve or work their homesteads, and yet they could not make the showing of disability on account of age or other infirmity required by the act of April 26, 1906, before their homesteads may be leased for more than one year. The result is the homestead of the full blood, together with his surplus, lies idle and unproductive, while he is in actual need. Our suggested remedy is to permit the leasing of the whole allotment or any part of it for five years for agricultiwal purposes, under rules of the Department and subject to approval by some officer located^ with in the new State. The above is also applicable to the leasing of lands of full bloods in the Creek Nation. Fourth. As to oil leases in the Seminole Nation. By the Seminole agreement of 1897, hereinbefore referred to, it is provided that oil and gas leases shall be made with the tribe; and under the late Curtis bill all acts of the tribal council must be approved by the President of the United States, and the lease must further be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, and half of the royalty must be paid into the tribal treasury. Un-Jer the late Curtis bill full-blood Seminoles may lease at least their surplus for oU and gas mining purposes under rules and regu- lations prescribed by the Secretary. The mixed-blood ^minole, however, can not. lease, for no lessee could obtain a lease from the tribe and the approval of the Presi- dent. Nor is he willing to lease when the law provides that one-half of the royalty FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1011 from his allotment should go to the tribe. This old provision of the treaty, which is atill in force, however, was evidently designed to cover the situation pending allot- ment of thelands. _ The freedman, with reference to his homestead, finds himself in a like position. Since both oil and gas have now been discovered in this nation, these questions have become of importance, and there should be some legislation which would permit the mixed bloods and the freedmen, as to their homesteads, to enjoy at least equal privileges with the full bloods as to the making of oil and gas mining and other mineral leases. These suggestions are offered in a spirit of fairness by the writer, who has had five yeais' experience in the Seminole Nation (during a large part of that time as assistant attorney and one of the attorneys for the Seminole tribe), and it is believed that they point toward results which will be beneficial both to the Indian and the white people of the localities referred to. Respectfully submitted, John W. Willmott, Delegate from Wewoha, Ind. T. On Rock Island Raileoad Train, Between Herbert and Coalgate, Ind. T., Wednesday, November 21, 1906. STATEMENT OF MB. J. M. CABE. The Chairman. Where do you live ? Mr. Cabe. At Coalgate, Ind. T. The Chairman. Wnat is your nationality? Mr. Cabe. I am one-sixteenth Cherokee. I am an intermarried Choctaw. The Chairman. I understand that ^ou were at a convention at Coalgate concerning which Doctor Wright spoke before the Senate committee at McAlester last evening? Mr. Cabe. Yes. The Chairman. I understand that you want to make some state- ment as to what was done there ? Mr. Cabe. Yes; I want to make a statement that I think Doctor Wright misrepresented our belief and our opiaion in regard to this thing. ' I think that in regard to the selling of this coal land the feeling ia our convention — m fact we all agreed in the convention — was in harmony with the authorities of our nation and with Gov- ernor McCurtain in regard to the matter. That is about the sub- stance of what occurred at our meeting. Mr. McMuREAT. Were you not all with Governor McCurtain in everything? Mr. Cabe. Yes. _ The Chairman. As I understand you, there was no serious defec- tion from the plan of Governor McCurtain ? Mr. Cabe. No, sir. The Chairman. As a general proposition, the nation, or the meet- ing representing it, would sustain the policy of Governor McCurtain in tribal matters ? Mr. Cabe. That is right. We agreed upon that when we started. Doctor Wright said things last night that I wanted to get up and correct. 1012 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH B. PLTJMMEB.. The Chairman. Where do you live? Mr. Plummeb. At Olney, Ind. T. The Chaieman. Of what nationaHty are you ? Mr. Plummeb. I am one-eighth Choctaw by blood. The Chaibman. Were you present at the meeting at Coalgate referred to last evening at McAlester by Doctor Wright in the state- ment he made before the Senate committee ?t Mr. Plummeb. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. And were you one of the delegates to that con- vention? Mr. Plummeb. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. I understand you wish to make a statement in regard to what occurred there? Mr. Plummeb. Yes; we had a very fair attendance. I repre- sented a lot of people from west of Toboghe. We were in favor of the plan proposed by Governor McCurtain. We thought it best to sell the entire thing together. We were told that this committee was coming here. I said "I will go and see them." I want to say that we are not in favor of paying out this money for school pur- poses. We say, pay it per capita to the Choctaws and Chickasaws. The Chaieman. You are in favor of having the money paid per capita to the Choctaws and Chickasaws? Mr. Plummeb. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. Was that the general idea at the convention? Mr. Plummeb. Yes, sir; and it is so throughout the whole country. The Chaieman. Then your statement involves the idea that Doc- tor Wright did not properly represent that meeting or convention before the Senate committee last evening? Mr. Plummer. He did not, sir. As to the question of people coming in now to be registered and claiming our property, we are in favor of excluding them. That is our private opmion. The Chairman. Ihat there ought to be no further addition to the Choctaw rolls ? Mr. Plummer. No, sir. Mr. MoMuRRAY. Did your convention indicate whether they were going before the Senate committee to support Governor McCurtaia and his plans ? Mr. Plummer. Yes; it was understood that we were not going against the officials of our nation. We were to represent the people, and we wanted to see these Senators and treat them with the greatest respect. Mr. McMuRRAY. Have not your people always been with Gov- ernor McCurtain ? Mr. Plummer. Yes, sir; always. Adjourned. Ardmoee, Ind. T., Wednesday, November 21 , 1907. The committee met at 3 o'clock p. m. at the Elks' Hall. Present: Messrs. Clark, of Wyoming (chairman), Long, Brandegee, Teller, and Clark, of Montana. The Chairman. Gentlemen, this committee has come to Indian FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1013 Territory under the authority and direction of the Senate of the United States to get such personal and other information as it may- be able to get in regard to matters upon which legislation may be necessary or desirable with reference to the affairs of the Territory generally. Our hearings are public and open to all. We have no private hearings. All persons having knowledge or information regarding matters of general interest to the welfare of the Territory have been invited to appear freely before the committee and make their state- ments, and the committee will be glad to have the word go forth broadcast that it is seeldng such information, regardless of the source from which it may come. The sole purpose of the committee is to ascertain, upon the ground, some knowledge of the conditions pre- vailing in the Territory, something of its institutions, and something of the wishes of the people who are most interested. During our stay in Ardmore, which will necessarily be short (inas- much as we are obliged to leave here about noon to-morrow) , we shall hold a brief meeting this afternoon, then a meeting of two or tiiree hours in the evening, and another meeting to-morrow forenoon. We hope that during those three sessions you will be able to give us some information that will be of value to us and to the Congress of the United States, and which will result in benefit to you in the future. If there is any information that any one of you is prepared to sub- mit at this time upon matters of general importance, the committee will be glad to hear you. STATEMENT OF MB. W. B. JOHNSON. Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the Senate com- mittee, I have been selected to present to you the views of our local committee Senator Long. Before you proceed we should like to have in the record your address, and your occupation or profession, Mr. Johnson. I am an attorney at law and live here in Ardmore. Senator Beandegee. Do you represent the Commercial Club here? Mr. Johnson. Well, I am one of the members of the Commercial Club, and I believe it has several gentlemen on the programme to address you briefly. Senator Brandegee. I understood you to say that you represented some committee. Mr. Johnson. Well, I do not pretend to appear here and represent the view of anyone but myself. These views that I will present here are my own, but I think that they reflect the views of a great majority of the people living here and who are interested in the future of this country. 1 have stated them to several of our leading business men here, including bankers and merchants, and also including Indians. Some of them disagreed with them and others agreed with them, but I think in the main the majority agreed with them. As I say, how- ever, these are my own views, and 1 am ready to submit them now to the committee if you desire to hear them. The Chairman. Certainly. You may proceed. Mr. Johnson. The people to whom I have submitted my views, I will say, while some of them disagree with me in part, yet they all agree for the most part. 1014 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The interest felt by the citizens of this piart of the Indian Ter- ritory, not engaged in the real estate business by purchase and leases, diflfers materially from those engaged in that class of busi- ness. While all are professing the same desired result, the method of some in reaching this end is controlled in large measure by selfish ends. The land agent and speculator would remove restrictions from the sale and leasing of Indian lands without conditions and limita- tions. The citizen, desiring the growth and development of the country upon sound and moral principles, having in view the future as well as present development, deplored this selfish and sordid reasoning. That there are many Indians abundantly supplied with all the endowments of thrift, conservatism, and intelligence can not be questioned, but that the converse is also true to an alarm- ing extent, without regard to quantum of Indian blood, can not be denied. We suggest that an educational and encouraging limita- tion placed upon the sale and leasing of Indian lands would be wise and judicious, assuring prosperity to both races without future calamity to either. Our views may be succinctly stated as follows: First. That the restrictions upon the alienation and leasing of the lands of intermarried citizens be removed. Second. That the restrictions upon the alienation and leasing of all the lands of Indians other than the full blood be removed, except upon the homestead. Third. That the restrictions upon the alienation and leasing of all the surplus lands of Indians of the full blood be removed upon proper proof before a competent tribunal of the intelligence and moral capacity to comprehend and conduct his business. Fourth. That no sale under section three shall be legal unless advertised for thirty days at the county seat, bids to be sealed and delivered to the county clerk stating terms of bid, which, if accepted, shall be stated in the deed, and a lien shall remain upon the property until the full satisfaction of the purchase money, all deferred payments to be nonnegotiable, and no person shall acquire title to more than one Indian surplus either directly or indirectly at such sales, and if one person does so, the title to such land shall revert to the Indian selling the same. Fifth. All such deeds are to be prepared and executed before the county clerk in the county where such land is situate"d. I will state this fact so the committee will understand, that in this nation a great deal of land has been allotted to parties who reside in the Choctaw Nation; they take part of their land in the Choctaw Nation and part of it here, and I think it would be well to have the court in the district or in the county where such land is situated to pass on it, and the purchaser thereof should make affidavit that he has purchased the same as a homestead, and will within six months and for two years thereafter use the same for such purpose, and that he will not dispose of same and will not and has not contracted to do so, which shall be attached to and recorded with said deed. Any failure to comply with this provision by the purchaser, or his heirs in case of death, shall render such conveyance void, and the land shall revert to the vendor. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1015 Sixth. No lease of land in cultivation from a full blood shall be valid for a longer period than two years, and no renewal or contract for same or other lease, shall be made on such property until within sixty days prior to the expiration of the existing lease. Seventh. All leases made with persons not permitted to alienate the land leased under this act, who are full bloods, shh,ll be approved by the county or probate judge of the county where the knd is situated, otherwise shall be invalid as to the lease, and no person or corporation shall lease directly or indirectly more than 640 acres of Indian lands, unless the land so leased is not subject to culti- vation, but only fit for grazing, which may be leased for five years, which shall be determined by the authority approving the lease, and deceit practiced shall render said lease void. Eighth. The surface of segregated mineral lands should be sold to actual settlers, no person being allowed to purchase more than 160 acres; the minerals appraised, purchased, and by some means transferred to the State school fund. I will say that there is not very much of that land. Ninth. All allotted mineral land should be leased for a long time with proper restrictions as to development and quantity of land to each person. Tenth. Immediatelv upon completion of rolls of citizenship all moneys on hand should be distributed by the Government to encoiu"- age thrift and discourage reckless misuse of lands. Senator Long. The intermarried citizen could sell his surplus now, couldn't he? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. But he could not sell his homestead ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; he could not do anything with it but keep it. That the restrictions ought to be removed from the sale of all lands belonging to intermarried citizens seems to be open to no discussion. Having had all the training and education enjoyed by other citizens of the States, no reason exists why they should be deprived of all the "rights, privileges, and immunities" enjoyed by such citizens. Mar- riage never decreased the stability, honor, intelligence, or iategrity of any man, and that is the only reason assigned for the hmitations and restrictions placed upon the intermarried citizen. That restrictions should be removed from the surplus of all except the full blood is not so easily explained. When once intermarriage has occurred between the Indian and the white it is a rare instance when the offspring carries a full blood Indian. The rule is other- wise. The assimilation then begun rapidly increases until no dis- tinguishing mark or trace of the Indian blood is noticeable to others than an expert; and with this assimilation education, refinement, culture, and business capacity keep even pace. The oiily plausible objection to this seems to be the want of experience in handlir^, appraising, and valuing their most valuable asset — the lands. We grant the reasonableness of this argument, but insist the protection suggested will explain away the necessity for prohibitory restrictions. It may be said that under the existing law the removal of restric- tions is permitted and that this surplus land may then be sold. This is true. But the expense, annoyance, and publicity given, or rather the lack of pubhcity, deters and prohibits others than speculators from investing and enhancing the value of land, until the schemer, 1016 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. speculator, and grafter, who is by virtue of his calling in closer touch and better informed than others, have persuaded the vendor that he is the only man and his the only bid that can be safely accepted. This injm'es the Indian and retards the growth of the country by forcing the real farmer to pay tribute to the speculator in order to acquire land. To suggest that all these restrictions be removed on a certain date, that no contract made for the purchase prior thereto be recognized, that the sale be made only to actual bona fide settlers, requiring actual residence, and limiting the amount any person may purchase. No speculator will dare to go in the face of such a law. It will open the door to the poor and rich homeseekers, surround the Indian with industrious citizens who will engage in improved meth- ods of farming, etc., and thereby not only benefit him but enhance the value of his homestead and otjier lands of his family, and add to the taxable property of the State much needed revenue for its sup- port. Even without these limitations the simultaneous removal of restrictions from the class named, with previous publicity of the fact can not but result in immediate good to the allottee, the State, and the homeseeker. Perhaps this is the only State in the Union where almost every member of the family has a homestead, besides surplus lands. But these lands are worthless without the means and opportunity to develop them. A dependent citizenship is undesirable from any standpoint. Independent action, unrestrained ambition, inviting opportunities, all tend to upbuild the man morally and financially. The wavering and incompetent are as well protected by a homestead as by a province. That there are such in all races should not deter action beneficial to the whole. The full blood needs protection, not because he is unwise or a spendthrift, but because of his inability to understand the value to be placed upon money and lands and the wisdom of acquisition. Being nature's innocent child, he has looked to it alone for food and raiment so long that changed conditions confuse him rather than remove the cloud from the vision of his ambition. No treasures of gold, real or imaginary, will ever awaken his depend- ent spirit from his long ancestral life of lethargy. This brings us down to the question of whether it is advisable to remove the restric- tions or any part of them from the full blood. But for the beneficial and wholesome example from which all Indians have improved, of advanced industrial methods and social conditions, we would answer it is not. With the conditions suggested herein no appreciable harm could result. Permit these surplus lands, as well, to be sold to actual settlers on long time nonnegotiabler paper, if desired, pro- tected by hen upon the property. The great bane of this country is and will continue to be, unless some method is devised to rid us of it, what is commonly known as the grafter. This remorseless and unconscionable creature is sucking the life blood of the Indian like a vampire, crippHng the progress of the State and demoralizing the integrity of contracts. He swoops down upon the estates of little children by having a friend appomted guardian or curator, and this friend at once leases the land to him for a nominal sum, and he in turn sits in this city office and demands tribute from the actual tiller of the soil. The guardian or curator should be required to lease direct to the farmer, and none should be permitted to lease more than 640 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1017 acres of land in cultivation. The records of our courts show that a few men have hundreds of thousands of acres of land leased in this way not one of whom cultivate a single acre of the land, but sublease it to actual farmers. If it is profitable to them why not give this f)rofit to the Indian, and if the Indian is receiving enough why not et the actual laborer have what the middleman extorts from him for his toll. We suggest that the most effective way to rid the Indian and society of the grafter is to frame a law that he can not thrive under. Limit the holdings by lease or purchase from these Indians to actual bona fide settlers, compel an affidavit to that effect with proper pen- alties, remove the restrictions publicly and simultaneously, and without the grafter, who constitute only a small per cent of our popu- lation, the Indian will thrive as never before, and the country will fill up with an independent, thrifty, property-owning class of citizens. Now, that is the message of my views which I wish to convey to you, and in this I am supported by many of the best and most public spirited citizens of this community. Senator Long. You say you live here in Ardmore ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. How long have you lived here ? Mr. Johnson. I have been here since seventeen years ago last April. Senator Long. What official position, if any, have you held here during your residence here? Mr. Johnson. I have been United States attorney eight years arid four months. Senator Long. During all the time you have been living here have you been a practicing attorney? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. I am not United States attorney now; I retired from that office the 1st of January. Senator Long. What do you say as to the practice of taking deeds from the Indians in the face of the restrictions? We have been informed that it is a common practice, and we would like to have your opinion about it and what you know about it. Mr. Johnson. Well, I regret to say that I am not in a position to tell you anything authoritative about it. I have never engaged in any of these kinds of deals and have always refused to have anything to do with them. Senator Long. You have not had any of that kind of business ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I did not think it was right; I have my opinion about it, and that opinion precluded me from engaging in it. I will say, however, that there are many here who have engaged in it, and they can no doubt tell you all about it. You should not have any trouble in getting all the information you desire right here on that question. Senator Long. Your understanding is that that business is prac- ticed here? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. I think the committee would like to know what the eifect of the present restrictions has been on the Indians. Mr. Johnson. You want my opinion on that subject ? Is that it ? Senator Long. Yes, we would like to have your opinion. You 1018 I'lVB CIVILIZED TBIBES. have been here a long time and must know a good deal about it, and we would like to be favored with your opinion. Mr. Johnson. Well, gentlemen, I will tell you my idea about that. You can find some full-blood Indians who are just as competent to transact their business as any ordinary United States citizen. There is plenty of them in this section who are just as competent to trans- act their business as the average white citizen of the United States. Now, I am not speaking of the whole Territory; I am speaking of this section down here, for this is all that I am personally familiar with. On the other hand, you will find many full-blood Indians who are abso- lutely incapable of attending to anything in a business manner. This is peculiarly true with reference to what are known as the Mis- sissippi Choctaws. I don't think there is one single one of them that is competent to transact his own business. They have been brought here from Mississippi, and they are very ignorant — appall- ingly so ; they are not half as far advanced as our native full bloods. Senator Long. Where are they located ? Mr. Johnson. A great many of them out here west on Center Creek and in that vicinity. Senator Long. They came in here recently? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; in the last three or four years. Senator Long. How many of them are there here ? Mr. Johnson. Well, I don't really know. Mr. Wright, if he is here, can give you more definite information regarding that than I can. He can do it or the representatives of the Choctaws and Chicka- saws, for they would know. I will say, however, that there are quite a good many of them Senator Long. Well, about how many are there approximately? Mr. Johnson. Oh, I would say that there are somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000. I judge there are that many of them. They are a very ignorant and illiterate lot. Now, gentlemen, is there anything else you desire to ask me? If there is I'd be glad to give you any further information I may possess on any matter. The Chaieman. I will ask you a few questions. I understand, Mr. Johnson, that the allotments in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations are very much larger than they are in the other nations in the Territory ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In some cases, depending on the class of the land (that is, its value) ; they may be as large as two or three or four thousand acres? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; there is little of that in the Chickasaw nation, but across in the Choctaw Nation there is a good deal of it. The Chairman. In regard to these very large allotments, do you think it would be the best plan to require the lessee of any of these Indian lands to reside upon the lands; and when you suggest that that be required would you extend it so as to apply to the poorer class of lands? Mr. Johnson. I did not say the lessee; I said the purchaser. I said that no man should be required to lease more than 640 acres of land in cultivation. The Chairman. What is the purpose of that restriction upon the amount of land that any one person should be allowed to lease — that is, land that is in cultivation or susceptible of cultivation? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1019 Mr. Johnson. That is done for this purpose. We have here some very nice, affable, and courteous gentlemen engaged in that busi- ness. I have nothing personal against any of them. They are look- ing out for their own mterests in their own way, and because their way is not my way that is no reason why we should quarrel; but they have leased a great deal of land from these Indians, in various amounts, some of them have as much as 75,000 acres leased I under- stand, and they live here in town and don't work any of the land themselves, but_ they sublet it to tenants or farmers, and I don't think that that is a system that is productive of much good either to the Indians or the community, and I have the idea that it would be a good thing to_ fix things so as to get rid of that class of citizenship, and let the Indians lease their land directly to the farmers. It would be done that way now if it were not for the red-tape methods that prevail, which make it so difficult for a farmer to get a lease direct. He won't lie around and waste the time necessary to get it, but these men are here on the ground and time is no object to them, so they get all the business, knowing the modus operandi that has to be pur- sued. I have thought, in view of these circumstances, that if a limi- tation of 640 acres of agricultural land was made to one person that it would so restrict the business that there would not be enough in it to induce these gentlemen to stay in that business and they would turn their energies to something else, which, while it might not be as profitable to them, would be better for the Indians and the com- munity. If that was done the grafter would not have anything to work for, for he could lease only the 640 acres himself. The Chairman. I agree with you thoroughly on that proposition, but the point I want to get at is this : Out in the country where I live and in the country where Senator Clark, of Montana, lives and where Senator Teller lives, we will often find a man who has, say, 640 acres of land that is susceptible of cultivation, and he may cultivate it, but he win find that he has not pasturage enough for his stock to range on, and he goes out into the public domain and pastures them, or he leases land from his neighbor sufficient for his purpose, land not fit for cultivation, but which is fit for pastiu-age. According to your views, would you take the land that is not fit for cultivation, but is 'fit for pasture, and include it in this restriction ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I say land that is not fit for cultivation. I state that expressly. I have not attempted to place a limit on that, for it has not developed yet that it is necessary. It might become necessary to do so, but it don't appear yet that it would be. The Chairman. How would it be as to the purchase of such non- agricultm-al land ? Mr. Johnson. That would be the same. I would not restrict it. The Chairman. I just wanted to get your view. The restriction as to amount would be limited to agricultural land ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. There is a great body of land up here in the Arbuckle Mountains that nobody could live on and make a living at farming, and I am proceeding on the theory that no actual farmer would want it at all. It might be as well to provide that he could only purchase so much land for grazing purposes, or lease it. That is a matter for consideration. The Chairman. We have done that in regard to some of our reser- vations ? 1020 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Most of the land surrounding here is excellent agri- cultural land, is it not? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; not right around the city it is not, but out 4 or 5 miles it is. It begins there to the south. Senator Long. What do they raise on it ? Mr. Johnson. Cotton and corn. Senator Long. How much cotton does it raise ? Mr. Johnson. Sometimes we raise half a bale and sometimes a bale. Senator Long. To the acre ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. How much was raised per acre of cotton this season? Mr. Johnson. Well, it was a little below the average this season. Sometimes it gets up to a bale to the acre. It depends on the land. Some of this river bottom land will raise a bale to the acre. Senator Long. How does the land compare here with Texas for raising cotton? Mr. Johnson. How does it compare with Texas? Senator Long. Yes, sir; for raising cotton, how does the crop here compare with Texas? Mr. Johnson. Well, just about the same. If you go out in western Texas it is just about the same. That has become quite a cotton-pro- ducing section. The Chairman. Suppose there were a free and open market here and everybody was allowed to dispose of his land as he saw fit and to whom he saw fit, what would you say as to the average value of the agricultural land not in cultivation? Mr. Johnson. You mean in this section here? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Johnson. Well, I should say about ten or twelve dollars an acre. The Chairman. It would be worth that in case the restrictions on its sale were removed ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; I think it would readily sell for that. Now, that is merely my opinion. Of course you understand I have never been engaged in the real estate business, and I haven't had much conversation on the subject, but what I have had would lead me to believe that that would be about the price at which it would sell. There are plenty of people around here better qualified to give you reliable information as to that than am I. The Chairman. I think that on the whole I would as soon take your judgment as anybody who has been engaged in the business. Mr. Johnson. I have some idea about it, too, for I can't help hear- ing about these things. Up here at Pauls Valley and from there clear on up to Purcell, which is 6 miles north of here, land has sold for as high as $60 an acre; in fact one tract up there sold for — well, there was 100 acres of it and it sold for $10,000. The Chairman. It had good improvements on it ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I don't think it had any special improve- ments on it. Land up there is valuable for this country. Good land down here that has a good title without any complications in it will sell well. There is no doubt of that, but as I said, taking the whole of the unimproved land I think that probably from $10 to $12 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ■ 1021 an acre would be a good, fair price to put on it. If there was a boom to come on here it would probably go away above that. The Chairman. Where was that hundred acres that sold for $ 1 0,000 ? Mr. Johnson. It was in the Washita Valley, and it had been in cultivation for a number of years. The Chairman. There is another important question, and that is whether or not the matter of sustaining county governments should, from a public point of view, cut any figure in considering the removal of restrictions. We understand that the great body of land in this country under present conditions is not, and could not be, subject to taxation. The beginning of county governments under your new State organization will be expensive; there would be trouble in securing sufficient revenue from the property that is now under private ownership, and it would appear that under such con- ditions there could not be enough raised from taxation to properly sustain your county governments ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; that is a question that I have given a great deal of thought to myself and everybody who has the future of this country at heart also reflects over it. It is something that we will soon be brought face to face with, and it is a problem that I confess I can't see any way out of. It is true that there is not enough property held here that is subject to taxation to properly maintain our county governments. We will have county buildings to erect and roads ajd bridges to build, and a great many other sources of expense to provide for and as it is now, outside of the cities and towns, there is very little taxable property. The towns would have to bear the burden of taxation. I will state further, if that was the only reason, I would not advocate the removal of a single restriction. The Chairman. I was speaking of it from the public point of view. Mr. Johnson. That is one thing which I think ought to be con- sidered by the committee. I think that something ought to be done to increase the amount of property subject to taxation. The Chairman. And you believe that the restrictions ought to be removed from the surplus allotments? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; for if that was done a great many of the Indians would sell them and get money with which to improve their homesteads. Every member of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations have 320 acres of land — that is about what it is. The Chairman. That is the average size of the allotments? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; they vary according to the appraised valuation, but that is about the average size. Of course there is some land in Pauls Valley that was appraised at $6.50 an acre and the ones that took their allotments there got less than the ones who took land that was appraised at only, say, $2 an acre or $3 an acre. The Chairman. How does the appraisement compare with the average value of the land in comparing one section with another? Mr. Johnson. I suppose you mean if the appraisement was fairly made? The Chairman. Yes, that is substantially what I mean. Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; I think on the whole the appraisement was very fairly made. Of course, in a wholesale work of that kind, you can't expect to get perfect results, and there are some dis- crepancies here that are very noticeable. There is lots of the land 1022 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. appraised for $3.50 and $5 an acre that you_ could not sell for $1 an acre. Out here on Rock Creek it is nothing but rock, but the land is appraised at $3.50 an acre, and you could not sell it for hardly anything. The Chairman. On what theory was that done ? Mr. Johnson. To reach an equitable manner in allotting it. The Chairman. Has it been allotted ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I don't think it has. The Chairman. Then, all the land has not been allotted? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; not by any means. There is plenty of land left. The Chairman. How much has been left unallotted? Mr. Johnson. There are 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of acres left in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations that have not been allotted to any one. That much was left after they finished their allotments. The Chairman. Now, the Choctaws and Chickasaws take their allotments indiscriminately ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. A Choctaw can locate in the Chickasaw Nation, and vice versa ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. That is wherein one of the chief advan- tages of the grafter lies. They could take any Indian and allot his homestead in the Choctaw Nation. If he was a Chickasaw they could allot him in the Choctaw Nation and take him o\^r there and have his homestead allotted to him there, and then bring him over here and have his surplus land allotted to him in the Chickasaw Nation, and he would take that as his surplus. Now, there is not 1 person in 50 — no, not 1 in a 100 of the people who know where the man lives that has these allotments, but the grafter — he knows all about it, for he allotted him on these lands, or saw that he got them, for he is the man that handled them and got them to do this. If a man saw that land and wanted to lease it he would not know where to go. Senator Long. What is your definition of a grafter? Mr. Johnson. About the same as it is in Kansas. Senator Long. He must be pretty bad, then, for the definition we put on it is pretty bad in Kansas. Mr. JoNNSON. Well, that is what we think he is here. Senator Long. A man who engages in the practices you have narrated ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. It has been defined in certain localities where we have been as "a white man engaged in the real-estate business in the Indian Territory." Mr. Johnson. Well, I don't know that I would give it so broad an application. I don't think a grafter down here limits his busi- ness entirely to land. Down here he is a man that will engage in any kind of business where he can get something for nothing. The Chairman. From what you have stated, and what other gentlemen who have appeared before us have stated, these allot- ments, it appears, are often taken under the direction and advice of this man, whom I will term a " land agent." Call him what you may, he is the one who first suggests to the Indian the location on which he will take his allotment. Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 1023 The Chairman. Now in what way under the law can he be secured for his time and trouble, and perhaps expense, in kindly getting this allotment for the Indian ? In other words, does the Indian pay him for it, or is there any way under the law, by which he can be secured, that his time and trouble will be rewarded ? Mr. Johnson. I don't know that there is any way under the law that he could compel the Indian to pay him, but according to my understanding he would take the Indian and show him the land he wanted him to allot, and then he would take him before the Com- mission where he would swear he had seen it, and desired to select it as his allotment. The Indian would do that, and the grafter would coach the Indian as to what to say, so there would be no slip up in the proceedings. When the land was allotted the grafter would secure from the Indian a five years' lease on that land at a nominal sum, the balance between what he paid for the lease and its real value being supposed to repay him or recoup him for the time, trouble, and money he expended in getting the allotment made to the Indian. The difference between the actual value of the lease and what he would pay for it, as I said, being his payment for his time, trouble, and actual expense, either imaginary or real. The Chairman. They can not do it with the full bloods ? Mr. Johnson. Well I don't know whether they can or not. They do it, some way. It is hard to get ahead of them. They are about the slickest and wiliest gentlemen that ever afilicted any community. When you see what they do do, you come to the conclusion that you have no right to say that they can 't do anything. The Chairman. They manage to secure a five-year lease ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; that has recently been secured by an act of Congress. Now, I don't want to be understood as favoring the taking away of these lands from these people immediately and not allowing them to reap the benefit of the contracts they have made. I think it would be better to le"t them run imtil they expire, because they will soon expire anyway by limitation. The land upon which leases were secured in that way, the leases now haven't more than two years to run. By the time an act of Congress could be got through and made effective these leases would be about ready to expire; so it would be better to just let them run as they are until they expire. I don't think any of them would lose anything if they were canceled right now, but they are contracts that were made in good faith, and while the Indian may have suffered by it, it was a legal contract at the time it was made. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are there not some other methods of grafting ; other ways in which grafting is accomplished aside from the making of these leases? Are there not agreements, implied or expressed, to convey property upon the removal of restrictions ? Mr. Johnson. Well of course the law forbids that, but we notice one thing down here, and that is that when the restrictions are removed, generally the man that has the lease — and that is the grafter — generally he is the first man to find it out, and he is the man that gets the land. Senator Clark, of Montana. The grafter gets it always? Mr, Johnson. Yes, sir; so far as my observation goes he does. Really I could not name a single farmer — bona fide farmer — who has had an opportunity to purchase this land from the Indian after 1024 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the restrictions were removed. I don't know just how it is done, for I live here in town; but I do know that a good many of these land agents already own considerable bodies of land already where the restrictions have been removed. I had occasion one time to investi- gate one of these cases. While there was no suit instituted. I inves- tigated a matter one time where there was a contract for the land, it was out here right north of this town and the Indian had been induced by the white man to allot it, and then the white man went to an attor- ney and contracted with him to get the restrictions removed for $500. I saw it published in the Muscogee PhcEnix that the restrictions had been removed, and I had a talk with the man who was to get them removed. He went directly to the attorney that was working for him and the Indian, for the Indian still thought that this man was working to get the restrictions removed, and found out that the Indian had sold the land to this attorney for $500, and he did not know it. Now that land is worth to-day $70 an acre and that Indian sold it for $20 an acre. Senator Teller. Mr. Johnson, in these suggestions which you make here as to what might be done, do you take into consideration at all the fact that these people are citizens of the United States, or are you treating them as we have treated them heretofore, as " wards of the nation?" Mr. Johnson. I don't know that I understand just what you mean. Senator Teller. You have made various suggestions here as to what might or could be done for the purpose of remedying certaia evils which admittedly exist here. In domg that, do you take into consideration that these people are citizens of the United States, or are you treating them as they have heretofore been treated, as wards of the nation ? Mr. Johnson. Do you mean with~reference to the right of Congress to impose these restrictions? Senator Teller. Yes. Mr. Johnson. My idea is that Congress would not have the right to impose any restrictions that would conflict with the conditions of the treaty. I do think that Congress has the right to modify or even release all these restrictions if it pleases, but I don't believe it can increase them. It can retain them, or modify them, but not increase them. I think, on the same ground that Mr. Bailey made his argument in the Senate, that the authority that made these restrictions has the right to modify them. Senator Teller. That modification might be an extremely great burden on them. Mr. Johnson. Well, if it were more than the burdens on them before, I don't think it would be of any avail; I don't think it would be of any force. Senator Teller. These restrictions will be removed in a certain time, as specified in their deeds? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. What is your judgment as to the wisdom of that? Mr. Johnson. I think that that is a great mistake. I had over- looked that. That was a great mistake. Now, we will say the sur- ?lus land is 100 acres, and one-quarter will be removed in two years. 'hat is 25 acres. Here is a man who comes to that Indian and wants FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1025 a farm, and all the Indian can let him have is 25 acres. That man does not want a farm of 25 acres. He wants more land than that; but he buys it with the view of getting the surplus land when it comes into the market — so the next 25 acres is sold in one year and three years and five years — and when the third year comes around he buys the other 25 acres, and another man buys the other — and there is none of it goes for the price that it ought to bring; and if he had the Srivilege of selling it all at one time he could have obtained a great eal better price for it. Senator Teller. What is the wording of the statute ? Mr. Johnson. One-fourth of the surplus in one year, one-fourth in three years, and one-fourth in five years. Senator Teller. That is of the surplus alone? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Measured by acreage? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. We drew up a deed the other day that I believe is perfectly ^ood under that act of Congress, and I am per- fectly satisfied that it was done for the purpose of securing the bal- ance of that land. That deed described it as that 25 acres. Senator Teller. Do you think that was a good deed ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Well, what was the matter with it ? Mr. Johnson. Well, I think it was practicing a poor moral prin- ciple. He could sell an undivided one-fourth of it that way — there- fore the next man that comes around could buy another 25 acres of it, but he would have to get the consent of the man who had pur- chased the first 25 acres or they would become tenants in common. The Chairman. What is your view of the last expression of Con- gress on this matter — in some cases increasing the date of the restric- tion from one year to two ? Do I understand you to hold to the posi- tion that it can not be done ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; I think it can't be increased. I don't think it can be enforced. The Chairman. You do not think it could be enforced ? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; decidedly I do not. The Chairman. We found out at Muscogee that many real estate men are taking deeds from the Indians, notwithstanding that pro- vision; but because of that provision they are obtaining the land at a very much less price than they would have had to pay for it had not that provision been in the law. They told us that they had con- sulted competent legal authority and were satisfied that the law could not be enforced, and that they were going to make a good thing out of it. Mr. Johnson. I know what you mean. I don't know whether that is being done here or not. It may be; if it is I don't know of it. Senator Long. That is a situation that is created because, under the Creek agreement, the restrictions imposed by the treaty or agree- ment would expire shortly. Mr. Johnson. There are a great many men who will take their chances and make these contracts with the Indians, because, according to my observation of them and experience with them, they are abso- lutely truthful in all their dealings if they are treated with a shadow of fairness. If a man has a lease on the property and has treated them S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 C6 1026 PIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. well, and has paid them the lease money, etc., and he wantsthe land when the time comes when they can sell it, he will get all of it. The Chaieman. Axe you speaking of the full bloods ? Mr. Johnson. I am speakmg of all of them. The Chairman. What you say is that all the Indians of whatever blood, who are treated in that way, feel under an obligation and will let the man have their land ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then you think that the strain of Indian blood in them makes them more honorable ? Mr. Johnson. Well, I think the strain of white blood that is in them makes a lot of them dishonorable. The Chairman. In other words, I understand you to say, that that rule, as to honor, will apply with more propriety to the full bloods than to the mixed bloods? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; it is more noticeable in the full bloods, but I would say that it is the rule also with the mixed bloods in this part of the Indian Territory. Whatever their blood they very nearly all, or by far the greater part of them, have very high ideals of honor so far as keeping their word is concerned, or repaying what they con- sider to be a debt of gratitude. The Chairman. When you say that, I understand your meaning to be that a contract not enforceable at law, you can more safely rely on the Indian f ulfilluig it than you can on the average white man ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; that is exactly what I mean. _ Senator Teller. You have made a number of suggestions here that in your opinion would be good things for Congress to give effect to. If, in your opinion. Congress can not add any conditions to a patent after it is once issued, would you not find some difficulty in carrying into effect some of these suggestions that you have made? Mr. Johnson. Possibly so. It may be that you could not enact a law that would hold, carrying into effect all my suggestions. I will tell you another thing, there might be a good many of these laws that might not be effective that would restrain these speculators. We think that conditions as they are now here are not the most beneficial that could be devised for attracting to this country the class of citizen- ship that is the most beneficial for its future. We think that a class of immigrants could be attracted to the country that would be more beneficial to the Indian and the public generally. They don't consti- tute a majority by any means, but there is too many of them here. We think — that is, I do — what if these restrictions that I have sug- gested, limiting the leasing or sale of land exclusively to actual settlers and requiring an actual bona fide residence on the land, that it would make these grafting gentlemen a little dubious about further engag- ing in the business they are engaged in. I think it would have the effect of making them pretty dubious about taking these leases or contracts. Senator Teller. You might be very willii^ that we should pass this legislation, but if you were a Member of Congress would you not have some hesitation about putting into the law provisions that you did not think were legal? Mr. Johnson. Certainly. I say that I would do it and I would make it as drastic as possible. You must understand that I only offer these as suggestions, without any hope that they will be enacted into law. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1027 Senator Teller. That is just where the trouble is. If it is enacted into law the people that it is aimed at will disregard it. They will get the advice of good counsel who will advise them that it is illegal, and as they are speculators, they will be willing to go right ahead as they have been going. I have never had any opinion other than that it was of ho effect, a,nd I so stated to the Senate, that that extension of the time of restrictions was absolutely void. I did not see how any good lawyer could view it in any other way. When the property is held by citizens under patent, I can not see now Congress can come ia then and put any additional restrictions on it when the citizen is carrying out the provisions in the deed. We can remove the restrictions or make them less oppressive, but not more oppressive, in my judgment. Mr. Johnson. Do you contend that you can't modify them? Senator Teller. You can modify them provided the modification is beneficial to the patentee. Mr. Johnson. You can reduce the restrictions. Senator Teller. Yes; or remove them entirely at any time, but we can't increase them in any way. Mr. Johnson. I think that is correct. Senator Teller. And that is where our trouble comes in just now in dealing with this question. Mr. Johnson. I don't think of any thing further, I believe. Senator Teller. There are some very good suggestions here. I recognize their merit, and they would have been very valuable to Congress if they had been made before we issued these deeds and we had incorporated them in the act, but I am afraid it is too late now to do anything. Mr. Johnson. Do you mean that where you have the restrictions now at twenty-one years. Congress could not now pass a law removing these restrictions, on condition that the purchaser make a certain affidavit that he is going to occupy it as a homestead? Is it your opinion that that can not be done ? Senator Teller. No, I do not say that it can not be done that way if he consents to the modification. If he would consent to it and make the affidavit that would bind him in that particular case. The Chairman. Or if he acts upon or under the law, that would bind him. Senator Teller. If he undertakes to sell it, you could put in the modifications as, for instance, how his deed should be made, and things like that; but what we have been urged to do, what the Senate committee has been asked to do, is to take the case of the full bloods and declare that for twenty-five years they should not alienate their property, when in the patent that has been issued to them it was provided that next August or July, or some time next summer they would have ample authority to do it. Mr. Johnson. One year from the date of the patent Senator Long. In the Cherokee and Creek nations the limitation on the time within which they could not dispose of their land was five years. It is one year in one nation, and the next year in the next nation, and so on. Senator Teller. I would not undertake to say but that some of the^e things you suggest would prove very beneficial. I am in- clined to think that they would, I have always thought that some- 1028 I'lVB CIVILIZED TEIBBS. thing in the way of safeguardiag the Indians should be adopted and was in favor of it at the time, but the majority did not see it, evidently, as I did. Here is where the trouble comes in — there are a very large number of these deeds that are going to ripen into full and complete instruments next year, and the time is short, for Con- gress will be in session only about three months and there is bound to be a great contrariety of opinion as to what should be done; so it is almost impossible to say that anything will be done in the next session of Congress. The time is so limited, and the diversity of opinion is sure to be so pronounced, that there will hardly be time to reconcile these conflictmg opinions in the short time that will be available. I suppose this paper will be left with us and we \vill incorporate it in the record? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. I was going to call your attention to the restrictions on conveyances, with regard to the power to reconvey. It seems to me, and I want to ask you if you do not think that it might tend to render the property undesirable to a purchaser, if he did not have the power to reconvey when he wished to do so. Mr. Johnson. Well it would not be long that he could not do that; I fixed the power there at two years when he could not do that. Senator Claek, of Montana. Two years is the limit ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Of course you understand that was only a suggestion. It might be only twelve months, or it might be five years. That is not as severe as the requirements of the United States homestead law. Senator Teller. The cases are not parallel at all as between a sale of this kind and a homestead. A homestead is a donation by the Government. To illustrate: I am about to sell a piece of land to Mr. Jones, and I will sell it on these conditions and put the terms and conditions in the deed, and Mr. Jones does not have to take it with these conditions if he does not want to; but if you say that I must sell my property to John Jones on certain terms, then the question arises as to whether or not you are embarrassing my title. I do not think that it is in the power of Congress to pass legislation that will do that, and, if Congress does it, it is inoperative, for the courts, to my mind, the first time they got an opportunity, would declare such action unconstitutional. I do not think that that can be done at all. Mr. Johnson. The only object that I had in suggesting that was as a preventive to these land agents' operations and throw as many obstacles in their way as possible. That is what the argument was presented for. These men are going through the country and buy- ing up this land and the whole thmg is being turned over to the f rafter, who before he lets any man come on the land who is or would e a bona fide settler and a good citizen if he had the chance, has to pay his pro rata to the grafter. That is where the "graft" part of it comes in. The Indian could get this "graft" himself, but in his case it would not be "graft;" it would be the legitimate value of his property. I think they should be required to sell it only to people who will use it as a homestead. What we want down here is people and lots of them who will buy the land as fast as it is released lor sale and go to work on it, as a home, improving it and rearing their families, and paying taxes on it to the county and the State. Any- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1029 thing that would have a tendency to do that, and which would throw all kinds of obstacles and difficulties in the way of the grafter acquiring this land, would be the greatest boon to this country. Senator Teller. I agree with you, and I am sure every member of this committee agrees with you, and would gladly recommend such legislation to Congress if they could see their way to do it, but these objections I have spoken of would inevitably be raised. There would be objections to its legality and I thiak they would be well taken. Now, to illustrate: Suppose the legislature of Colorado should say to me, "The next piece of land which you sell, and which you now own, you must sell to some man who will agree to keep it as a homestead." What would you say to that kind of legislation, and whether or not I would be bound by it ? Mr. Johnson. I do not think Colorado could do it, and if it did I do not think you would be boimd. Senator Teller. If Colorado can not do it, what makes you think the General Government can do it? Mr. Johnson. I think that the General Government occupies a different relation to the Indians from what the State of Colorado occupies to you. Here you have had and exercised entire control over the Indians, and you have apportioned the land to them on the condition that they can't transfer it for a certain number of years without express permission to do so. Now, can't you say to the Indians, "I am willing to remove that restriction if you agree to it." If you pass a law to that effect, and the Indian acts under the law, then he agrees to it and the restriction is removed or modified. If he does not, it remains. That is all there is to it. ' Senator Teller. That is all very true, but you understand there almost certainly will not be any legislation. There will not be time for it before Congress adjourns. I do not understand just what your rule is here in regard to the sale of the land. Mr. Johnson. The rule here is that they can sell one-fourth of their surplus in one year after the deed or patent is obtained, and the intermarried man can sell his surplus any time. Senator Teller. That is already provided for ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; by the act of 1904. Senator Teller. I want you to understand, Mr. Johnson, that this committee is just as anxious as you or anybody else to prevent this method of despoiling the Indians. Mr. Johnson. There is no doubt about that. Senator Teller. This committee is not responsible for the fact that Congress added twenty-five years to the limitations and restrictions that existed, as you know. That was done by the Senate, contrary to the wishes of the committee, or the majority of the committee. I think there were only two or three on the committee that agreedto it. So you see what we have to deal with. We have to deal with the sentiment down there, which is very strong against the removal of any of the restrictions at all, if it can be avoided. The Chairman. You made the statement that you expressed only your own views ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I suppose that a man in active life, as you are, has the opportunity to discover to a greater or less degree the sen- timent and views of the community? 1030 ^IVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Johnson. That is what I meant. I went around anaong the pubHc and collated this, and it is the expression of the majority of the people that I talked with. It is put in my own language, though. The Chairman. You think that this would not only express sub- stantially your own views, but at the same time it is an expression of the views of the larger part of the people here ? Mr. Johnson.' Yes, sir; I think so. A good many of the sugges- tions I have made met with the approval of a great many of the busi- ness men here, but several of them said that they thought the matter was open to discussion. In other words, they frankly said that they could not agree with me, so it does not represent all of them. The Chairman. Would you be imderstood as saying that it rep- resents the views of a majority of the thinking people in this com- munity, although it is expressed in your own language? Mj. Johnson. Yes, sir; the majority of the people I have talked with about it agree that that is about right. The Chairman. Have you any means of knowing what the desires of the Indians are in regard to this matter ? Mr. Johnson. I can not say that I do know what the majority of them think about it. I can say this — that I had two Indians in my office yesterday and I read this to them, and talked to them about it, and they agreed with it. The Chairman. They both concurred in it ? Mr Johnson. Yes, sir. They were not full bloods, though; they were probably between a quarter and half blood. The Chairman. But they are among the class of people that would be affected by this matter ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Are there many full-blood Indians living here ? Mj. Johnson. No, sir; only Mississippi Choctaws. They make up nearly all the full bloods around here. There are very few full- blood native Choctaws. Senator Long. You have not been here long enough to understand about them ? Mr. Johnson. I have been here long enough, but the trouble is these Indians won't give you any chance to understand them. Senator Long. You mean the Mississippi Choctaws ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. They are not as well provided with the means. I mean they are not as well able to protect themselves as the natives. Mr. Johnson. No, sir. As to our Choctaws and Chickasaws, except- ing some over in the mountains, the balance of them are just as well equipped to attend to business as the average white man. There are only a very few native full-blood Chickasaws. There are a great many more full-blood Choctaw Indians than Chickasaws. Senator Beandegee. I want to ask you about a disgraceful con- dition of affairs that has been testified to at other places where we have held sessions. A man gets himself appointed as the legal guardian of a large number of Indian minors and then leases their lands or estates to a real estate speculator, with whom he is in league, for considerably less than the land is worth, and the speculator in turn lets them out at a larger sum. It seems to me that that is a most disgraceful condition of affairs, and it is almost incredible that in any community there could be found human beings so utterly FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1031 devoid of heart or soul as these, yet we have been assured everywhere we have been that such creatures exist in each of these communities. Do I understand you to say that such a condition of affairs exists here? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. ■ Senator Beandegee. And that the records of the court here will disclose it ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Now I will explain to you what I intended to convey. The information I intended to convey is this : We have courts here that are just as honorable and as ef&cient as courts are any- where, and they have adopted a method by which the guardian or curator is required to make an affidavit, and prove by two disinter- ested witnesses that he is receiving the full value of the land before they wiU approve the contract. That is what the court here requires, and they adopted that as a precautionary method of protecting the ward, and assuring themselves that the guardian or cm-ator is making the most that can be possibly made out of the land for his ward; but it has occurred here that they will bring up two witnesses who have already contracted with this man to testify that the land is worth $1 an acre, when at that time they had agreed to pay the man more than that for it, and had actually entered into a contract for it at that time. It is a great abuse and is carried on openly. There is one man sitting here in this room now, who had approved at one time 175 leases, and my information is that he has at this time somewhere between 75,000 and 100,000 acres of land leased from the Indians at this time. That is my information as to his holdings, and there are others here in this city who have large amoimts of it leased in the same way, perhaps not so much as this man whose example I have instanced, but stdl have very large amounts. Now it is a strange thing to me how these men can get these leases from these guardians, and guardians pretending to get the full va'ue of the land for the Indian children or minors, and at the same time these speculators win turn around and make a sublease with the actual farmer and get rich off that kind of business. That thing has assumed the propor- tions of a special industry in this section. Senator Beandegee. Do these guardians give bonds? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Beandegee. Do they render periodical accounts? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; they make annual reports. Senator Beandegee. Are these accounts properly examined? Mr. Johnson. They are supposed to be. We have a good man in charge of it, and they ought to be. You see necessarily the examina- tion must be prefunctory, for all he has is the annual statement and the vouchers that may be cooked and prepared for the occasion. You see there is no provision for his going out into the country where the property is and making a special examination on the ground, and it can hardly be expected that he will go to that expense himself. If a man comes in and in his report says "I get $50 a year" for this piece of land and accounts for $50 a year, what is the court to do about it ? Senator Beandegee. Does the court, when it appoints that man the guardian of an Indian child or minor, know at that time that that same man has been appointed as guardian of a great many other Indian children or minors ? 1032 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Mr. Johnson. Well, I would not like to say that tKe court knew it, but I will say that I don't know of any reason why he should not know it. Senator Beandegee. Well, if the court record showed that a man was the guardian of say ninety Indian minor children, as the testimony at McAlester showed was the fact in one case, would the court appoint him the guardian of any more minor Indian children with accounts existing in his own court showing that the land had been leased for less than it was worth? Mr. Johnson. Well, I should say not if the court knows the facts, but the difficulty is that the accounts don't show that. The accounts filed with the court show that it had been leased at its full value, and there is no way by which the court can know whether it is or not further than by the showing made. I called the attention of the Department of Justice to this condition last November when I was in Washington. Senator Brandegee. Can you suggest anything that the committee can do that would crn-e that matter ? Mr. Johnson. I do not know that there reaUy is anything that Con- gress can do. We go into statehood so soon that it is hardly worth while bothering about it. When we get statehood as an accomplished fact, with all the machinery for running it, I am satisfied that the courts will regulate it. Senator Beandegee. As to your suggestion about the deferred pay- ments to be made to an Indian in payment for his land, and the sug- gestion that they be made nonnegotiable, would not that require the Indian to employ a lawyer to bring suits in court every time to collect them? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I take it that the man who bought them would have to do it. Senator Beandegee. That would be no hardship on the Indian if his assignee had to do it, would it? But would it be a wise thing, con- sidering all the circumstances, to put the Indian in that position ? Mr. Johnson. The man that is buying the promissory note gener- ally knows the man or the land, and he is going to take into considera- tion the man that owns the land or the man that gave the note. Senator Beandegee. What is the purpose of that provision forbid- ding the person who sells the land to dispose of the evidences of indebt- edness for deferred payments ? Mr. Johnson. It is only done in the case of the full blood, and it is done for the purpose of protecting him and preventing him from run- ning through with the proceeds of the land. That is the great trouble in the case of the Indians — they are not as a rule as thrifty as the whites, and if they have any money they want to run through with it — in other words, get rid of it as soon as possible. That is not the inva- riable rule, for as I said many of them are as competent as any white man, but a great many of them will spend their last cent without a thought of what the future has for them — in other words, they are wholly improvident, and this is merely an attempt to protect them against their own improvidence. Suppose he is paid a hundred dollars to-day, and $500 a year from to-day. Now, he would have to wait until the expiration of a year before he could sell it. Senator Beandegee. Suppose the Indian sells his land for all cash? Do you make any provision for his not running through with the cash? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1033 Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I do no-} think the Indian ought to be per- mitted to sell for cash — that is, the full blood. Senator Brandegee. How ought he to be allowed to sell it? Mr. Johnson. There ought to be no permission about it. If he sells at all he ought to be made to sell for payments in one, two, three, four, and five years. There ought to be something devised whereby he could not get all his money and run through with it in a short time. In that way you can sell to the good farming element and they will be able to come in and buy these surplus lands and pay for them and have the opportunity to make it out of the land; and by giving them that time they will be able to pay a better price and pay it in cash; only instead of doing it all at once, they will have it spread over a term of years. If you demand cash, 75 per cent of them could not buy at all. They have to have time. They have no means to amount to anything, but they could pay the small first payment and they would work hard and make the rest out of the land. If they had to pay cash they could not come anywhere near buying it at its reasonable value. Senator Brandegee. Well, suppose the settler wants to buy for cash and not pay interest? Mr. Johnson. There is the intermarried surplus and dead-Indian claims. He could go and buy those if provision were made only for the protection of the full bloods. Of course I think there ought to be some provision made by which he would not be allowed to run through with his money. You provide that he is not going to run through with his land, and if you are going to modify the restrictions so he can sell a portion of it for his own support or benefit, he should be restricted in some way so he could not run through with all these funds. Senator Brandegee. How long do you think the full-blood Indian can be kept in that sort of a position with the Government looking after his affairs ? Mr. Johnson. I do not know. Senator Brandegee. That is a question that has to be considered? Mr. Johnson. I do not know that it needs such serious considera- tion. It is no new thing. The Government has been looking after them for a long time. Senator Clark, of Montana. That was before they were citizens of the United States, and I do not think we have a right to put any burdens or restrictions on them any more than we have done without their agreement. The Chairman. Under the method you have suggested, of the speculator allotting or locating the Indians, I should imagine that the larger portion of the good land would be located under the sur- plus allotments. Mr. Johnson. I do not know about that, but I would not be sur- prised if that is true. The ChairjIan. Would you know how that is yourself? Mr. Johnson. No, sir; 1 don't know anything about it; but as they were actuated by self-interest, and that was the way they could gratify their self-mterest, I expect that will be found to be true. The Chairman. It would be to the interest of the speculator to leave the surplus land with as few restrictions as possible? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I did not know but that you had observed its operation. 1034 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. Mr. Johnson. No, sir; I have not had anything to do with this land business only to talk about it. I have confined my energies exclusively to law and its practice. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are there many instances where one individual makes application for more than one guardianship of these children? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; I expect you can go up here to the court- house and find where there is less than half a dozen men who are the guardians for between 200 and 300 Indian children. Senator Clark, of Montana. Where half a dozen men among them hold the guardianship of 200 or 300 Indian children? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is there a record of them? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who has charge of that record? Mr. Johnson. The clerk of the court. The Chairman. I imagine that it would be impossible for the judge of the court himself to pay personal attention to all these cases, par- ticularly where they are coming in continuously ._ Mr. Johnson. We have the probate commissioner and he investi- gates them and makes his report to the court and advises the court what to do, and the court does it, for, of course, the court takes it for granted that it is all right. The Chairman. The court approves these reports? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And I suppose that the approval is merely a formal naatter? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. I want to ask you whether or not it is considered a professional business, this transacting guardianship busi- ness for minor Indians, and if there are many men here who make a business of it? Mr. Johnson. There are a good many of them that make a busi- ness of it. Senator Clark, of Montana. There are a good many here engaged in it? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. It would look as if a man who was guardian for ninety of them was making a business of it? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; that is the way it looks to me. Senator Clark, of Montana. The man that gets the guardianship, of course, manages the estate of his ward ? Mr. Johnson. Yes; he takes full charge of the estate. Senator Clark, of Montana. If he did not, I suspect he would not be so anxious to be appointed guardian? Mr. Johnson. It is a fair presumption that he would not. There is nothing farfetched about that. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is the probate commissioner required to look closely into the administration of these estates by the guardians ? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; the court is very particular as far as it can be. As I explained, there is no fund out of which to defray the expenses of the officials making a personal investigation of each case. That is the way it ought to be done — a personal investigation and FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1035 inspection on the ground should be made of each estate to see that it was actually being made to yield the maximum amount for the minor, but there is no fund out of which the expense of such an inspection and examination could be made, therefore it is not done; but the court, as far as the record goes, is vigilant and sees that every- thing is in the right shape. They require such proof as can be pro- duced — the best proof — that is, the evidence of parties who know the property, and they are examined under oath as to what the improve- ments are, how much is under cultivation, how much fencing there is, the buildings and their character, and spring or wells, etc., and what the rental value of it is. All this is done, but that does not prevent the perpetration of fraud on the court, or the Commission either, because they have no means of going out there and investi- gating the matter for themselves. Senator Clark, of Montana. There are so many instances of these guardianships that it would be impossible to do that. Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. But are they not put upon their inquiry when they find a man coming up day after day and week after week, and month after month, and making applications for these guardianships? Mr. Johnson. Well, I would not like to express myself on that point. Senator Clark, of Montana. It would look to me, as a general proposition, as if they should refuse to issue them until some special inquiry was made ?. Mr. Johnson. That is the way it looks to me. Senator Clark, of Montana. You think, if you were doing it, you would refuse to issue these guardianship papers until you could make a special inquiry? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. In point of fact, when you saw a man coming up time after time and asking for appointment as guardian for such great numbers of minors would you not refuse to approve the appointment? Mr. Johnson. Probably I would; I have thought I would. Senator Clark, of Montana. It is certainly an astounding dis- closure to me, and I think it is to the rest of the committee, to find this condition existing in civilized communities. At the other places at which we have been we have found, as we find here, that this con- dition exists, and I simply wanted to acquaint myself with the extent of it. I will say this much, speaking for myself, that I consider any man engaged in this business as the great high priest in the art of grafting. [Applause and laughter.] Mr. Johnson. So do I. The Chairman. And a past grand master? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; or any other exalted title you can give him. The Chairman. I want to say to the gentlemen present that we ask these questions on account of the ignorance of the individual members of the committee, and the desire to gain information, and not with any desire to antagonize the views of any gentleman who is kind enough to favor us with his views, nor with any desire to cross-examine him. This question- of alienation is a question that appears to the 1036 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. committee to be one of very great importance, not only to the Chick- asaw Nation but as well to every other part of the Indian Territory, and we will be glad to have the views of any gentleman present on this subject, as well as upon any other subject that appears to him to be of importance. The committee is here to learn and ascertain whatever it can on any and every matter that appears to be of im- portance to the Territory, and everyone is inAated to come freely before the committee and express himself fully. STATEMENT OF MB. F. K. WEST. Mr. West. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am a farmer and I live at Ardmore. That is my business address. I have been a farmer all my life. I have a matter that I am prepared to present to you, gentlemen, setting forth the views of the farmer. Senator Long. What farmers ? Mr. West. The farmers in general in the Indian Territory. Senator Long. Well, what farmers do you mean ? The farmers who have leases? Mr. West. Yes, sir; leases on Indian lands. Senator Teller. Axe you a leaser ? Mr. West. No, sir; my wife is a citizen of the Choctaw nation. Senator Teller. You are an intermarried white ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Have you an allotment yourself? Mr. West. No, sir. Senator Teller. But your wife has ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And your children have ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. Now, if you are prepared, I will make our staternent. The Chairman. You may proceed. Mr. West. The condition of the farmers of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, gentlemen, is deplorable, and, while these condi- tions have been brought about by accident, it is doubtful if a more obnoxious condition could have been brought about by design. They are a people of tenants, living on lands which they do not own, under short-term leases from one to five years, and without any conveniences or accommodations whatever. Their homes, as a rule, consist of a little cabin, hardly sufficient to turn the rain or keep out the wintry winds. They have no barns or outhouses, and the fences are rarely sufficient to keep out stock. They have no shade trees around their houses, nor any orchards or growing fruit trees. You find in the cities a prosperous people, living in good, and even fine, residences, with all modern accommo- dations — fine business houses built of brick or stone, sidewalks and streets paved. But if you turn your gaze to the country you will be saddened by the contrast, for there you will see no good houses nor any other improvements worthy of the name. And bad as all this is, if you look closer you will find that the soil, from neghct and carelessness, is washing and wasting away, with no effort being made to increase its fertility or productiveness, or even to preserve that which it now has. This condition has been brought about by a combination of pecu- liar circumstances and unjust laws, and, in order that you may see FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1037 the effect of these circumstances and laws on the farmers of these nations, we hereinafter set forth these laws in full, describe as best we can see these environing circumstances, and point out how a com- bination of them has operated to the utter ruin of the farmers. On June 28, 1898 (30 U. S. Stats.), Congress enacted laws providing for the allotment in severalty of the land of these tribes. Sections 16 and 17 provide that no citizen of these tribes should own, hold or possess any more land than his or her pro rata part thereof; that he should not claim, demand, or receive rents on any of said lands either for his own use or for the use and benefit of any other person, in excess of his or her pro rata part thereof; and that a violation of said provision should be a criminal offense punishable as a misde- meanor, carrying with it a forfeiture of such excessive holdings. The Chairman. When was that made ? Mr. West. It was made \vith the Indians when the country was all in a wild state and any Indian had a right to go out into the public domain and segregate as much land as he desired from the public domain. There was plenty of land and more than was needed and any one, as I say, a citizen of the nations, could go out and take for himself and his own use as much land as he desired. It made no differ- ence what it was. That was about seventeen years ago, when I first came here. The Chairman. What State are you from? Mr. West. From Tennessee. The farmers came here and made these lease contracts with the Indians and went out on the public domain or out in the timber country and selected their land and cleared it and fenced it. Now, this act of 1888 terminated the system of leas- mgwith the farmers. The Chairman. How long were these leases made to run ? Mr. West. From six to nine years. Six years on the prairie and nine years where the timber had to be cleared off. The Chairman. Did you take a lease ? Mr. West. No, sir; I was a citizen when I came here. I have always lived here on my own farm and cultivated it. The Chairman. You are not an Indian? Mr. West. No, sir. The Chairman. You lived on favorable terms with the Indians ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. I will state to the committee this fact, that when these leases were made everything moved along smoothly and everything was prosperous. During that time this country was prosperous. It was as prosperous at that time as any country I ever lived in. The Chairman. Do you attribute that prosperous condition to the long terms of the leases ? Mr. West. No, sir; not necessarily, and in a measure, too. Farmers then were located on the land for a length of time and they knew that they would not be disturbed for a term of years that was of reasonable length, and they would go ahead and improve the land, knowing that they would be left to enjoy the fruits of the improve- ments, and imder the present conditions the farmers are moved about from pillar to post every year, for if the "grafter" who has charge of the land does not see fit to let him remain he turns him out and brings in a farmer from the States and puts him on the land, so as a result of that our farmers are moving around from pillar to post, so to speak, 1038 FIVB CIVILIZED TRIBES. and are not long enough in a place to do themselves any good. Under these circumstances it is only human nature that a man will try to get as much out of it during the limited term of his tenancy as pos- sible and give as little in return as possible. The Chaikman. But you are not doing that? Mr. West. No, sir; I have my own farm and don't have to. I am talking about the majority of the farmers — the renters. The Chairman. The grafter did not appear on the scene at the time that you refer to, when these prosperous conditions existed? Mr. West. No, sir; but he put in his appearance very soon after- wards. The Chairman. He appeared on the scene very soon afterwards? Mr. West. Yes, sir. Now to proceed. Section 23 of said act pro- vides: "All leases of agricultural or grazing lands belonging to any tribe made after the 1st day of January, 1898, by the tribe or any member thereof, shall be absolutely void, and all such grazing leases made prior to said date shall terminate on the 1st day of April, 1899, and all such agricultural leases shall terminate on the 1st day of January, 1900." That is, the section I referred to was done away with — that is, the old lease that the farmers had with the Indians was done away with. Section 3 of said act provides for offsetting improvements in an action for possession against the rental value of the land, but limits the same to the improvements on not to exceed 160 acres where the improvements were erected by the defendant in the action, and in actual operation the provisions of this section afforded the farmers only partial protection, disregarded entirely the hardships he had undergone to reduce these wild lands to a state of cultivation, and utterly ignored any profits he might have had or which might have resulted to him. On July 1, 1902, Congress passed another act relating to the allot- ment of the lands of these tribes in severalty, and in sections 19, 20, and 21 thereof practically reenacted the provisions of sections 16 and 17 of the act of 1898, changing, however, the amount of land which any citizen of said tribes might hold and possess to 320 acres instead of his pro rata share imder the former act. Under these acts the old order of things was done away with and a new order was ushered in. In the transition it was found necessary to strike down these excessive holdings of the Indian landlords and to terminate the leases of the farmers; and relative to these things the farmers make no complaint, notwithstanding they have lost heavily thereby, as such legislation was practically a necessity. There is one clause of section 29 of the act or 1898, innocent looking on its face, which, however, they do complain about, as it was the first step leading up to the present deplorable conditions. It is as follows : Each allottee shall select from his allotment a homestead of 160 acres, for which he shall have a separate patent, and which shall be inalienable for twenty-one years from date of patent * * *. xhe remainder of lands allotted to said members .shall be alienable for a price, to be actually paid, and to include no former indebtedness or obligation, one-fourth of said remainder in one year, one-fourth in three years, and the balance of said alienable lands in five years from the date of the patent * * *. No allottee shall lease his allotment or any portion thereof for a longer period than five years, and then without the privilege of renewal. The Chairman. What section is that? Mr. West. Section 29, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1039 ■The Chairman. Of what act? Mr. West. Of the act of 1898. Dismissing for the present the thought that the development of any country is retarded by placing restrictions upon the alienation of the property of its citizens we will proceed to show how the leasing of these lands, by the abuse of the power of leasing, have proven so disastrous to the farmers. In order to do this we must necessarily consider the nattire and character of the Indian and of that class commonly known as the grafters. The Choctaws and Chickasaws resemble in every material racial characteristic the other Indians of the United States; but, ex- cepting the other nations of the Five Civilized Tribes, probably are more highly educated and civilized. There are probably 25 per cent of the Choctaws and Chickasaws who possess business ability equal to that of the average white man, and are therefore competent to manage their own business affairs successfully in the great competitive crush of existence; but of the remaining 75 per cent, fully one-half are incompetent to do this, while the other half of the 75 per cent is much less competent than the average white man. With the 25 per cent who are equally as competent as the whites we have no concern. We will ' therefore direct your attention to the 75 per cent who are competent (?), as their ignorance, indolence, creduhty, and general incompetency has contributed mightily to bring about present conditions. They have little judgment of rental values, or of the value of money save only that it purchases tilings to satisfy their appetites and wants. To save and invest their money is foreign to their nature. They will sacrifice much property for a few dollars, and spend them as quickly as possible for anything that appeals to their appetite or fancy. Lacking business acumen, placing trust in smooth talking, they are duped by many, and easily fall a prey to designing men; and it is this susceptibiUty to be duped and imposed upon which is especially called to your attention. The grafter, on the other hand, is a shrewd, usually unscrupulous, and sHck, farseeing man. Inclined to drive the hardest bargains possible, he possesses the abihty and capacity of doing so. Energetic and possessed of a restless activity, he is always on the go for profit and gain. There are some among them who are honest and upright, but the majority are destitute of sound moral principle, and lacking in every element of fairness and justice. We are describing the type, not the exception. They delight in taking advantage of the ignorant and incompetent Indian, and extending their nefarious work beyond the men, as readily overreach the pitiable women and helpless httle children. Acts which, if perpetrated against white people, would result in social ostracism, unfortunately, when perpertrated on these incompetent Indians, pass almost without comment. You have seen the grafter all over the land, and he is the same here as elsewhere. Avarice and greed characterize his every act. We shall now show how these traits of character have contributed to present conditions. When Congress struck down the enorously excessive holdings of the Indian landlord barons, it provided that all lands in excess of each citizen's pro rata share should be for- feited, and should return to and become pubfic domain. At that 1040 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. time one-fourth of the Indians controlled all the lands of the tribe, and the remaining three-fourths had no lands whatever to allot. . These latter belonged to the incompetent class heretofore mentioned, and in most instances they lived in the most remote and inaccessible portions of the nation. Here, then, was a fruitful field for grafting work. The grafter saw it, and reahzing its great possibihties, immediately took advantage of it. He went upon "the lands of the excessive Indian landlords, mapped and platted them, and with these maps and plats in his pocket went out and hunted up incom- petent Indians to allot them. Prior to disclosing the lands' location, he contracted with the Indians for a lease upon the lands after their allotment, and having done this, took the Indian out and showed him the lands; then, after furnishing him with the aforesaid maps and plats, had him go to the land office and take the specified lands in allotments. After this was done the grafter had him execute, in pursuance of a prior contract, a lease upon said lands for a period of five years. The consideration of same, as is specified in the contracts, which are of record in the clerk's office, provide for annual money rental of from $40 to 175, the great majority of them specifying a money rental of $50 per annum. In addition to this most of them recite the aforesaid improvements on said excessive lands as a part con- sideration, and they are valued at an enormously high value ; whereas, in truth and in fact, the grafter frequently paid nothing for them, but on the contrary "jumped the land;" and in those instances in which he paid the excessive landlord anything, paid only a very small amount. By these means the grafters have monopolized fully three-fourths of the grazing and agricultural lands of the Choctaws and Chickasaws. Many of them have five-year leases on 10,000 acres each, and a few have leases on as much as 100,000 acres each. Having secured these leases, the grafter in his turn subrented them to the actual farmers of the country at their actual rental value, which ranged from $300 upward. Passing over the means by which these ignorant Indians were duped into executing these five-year lease contracts at such an unconscionably low rental value, and of the moral obliquity and iniquity of overreaching these pitiable and defenceless people, we invite your attention to its effect upon the conditions of the country. The remorseless grafter, renting from the Indian as cheaply as pos- sible, and subrenting to the farmer as high as possible, is actuated only by selfishness. He cares little or nothing about the upbuilding of his country nor the improvement in the condition of his fellow- man. Whether the farmers are improved, or the farmers be con- tented and happy, is immaterial. He expends no money in repairing the already dilapidated shanties nor incurs any expense in building new ones. He neither repairs the old fences nor builds new ones. He digs no wells, plants out no orchards, nor makes any improve- ment, save only such as are absolutely necessary to render the lands rentable. The result is that the old dilapidated cabins are growing worse and worse, and no good substantial houses are being built; for the subtenant farmer, under his short term of lease, can not afford to build them, and the Indian could not if he would. The same condition exists as to all other improvements found on the FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1041 farm. No effort is made to check the spread of Johnson grass nor prevent the washing away and deterioration of the soil. The reason I put that clause in there was because the gentleman who spoke a while ago said it was men who generally dealt ia real estate who were grafters. Now, I want to say that a general real- estate dealer in some localities is honest and upright, but .down here any man that deals in real estate is very often called a grafter, whether he is a white man or a red man. The Chaikman. Or honest or dishonest ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. He believes in what the Tammany braves call "legitimate graft?" Mr. West. I do not know about that. I do not know how it may be regarded in New York, but out here it is not regarded as legiti- mate. The CHA.IEMAN. We have heard a great deal about the "grafter," but, with the exception of one who appeared before us at Muscogee, and gave us a very interesting talk, he has been a minus quantity, or a sort of an invisible character. We have, with that one excep- tion, not coihe in contact with him, and I would like to know some- thiQg about the grafters in this locality, and see what they look like. Are many persons engaged in the business popularly known as "graft- ing" in this locality? Mr. West. No, sir; they are not so very numerous, but they make up in activity what they lack in number. The Chairman. For mstance, if ninety applications were made by one man for appointment as guardian over that number of minor Indian children would you call that man a grafter? Mr. West. I do not know. I should say if he wasn't he was trying very hard to become onp. The Chairman. You would say that he had ambitions along that Ime? Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You would call him a grafter, would you not ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You could not very well place him in any other class? Mr. West. No, sir. The Chairman. He would exhibit all the tendencies and ear- marks of a grafter? Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I have not been able to find out or determine as to the numerical force of the genus grafter in any given locality, and I would appreciate it if you could give us some idea as to the number of these obnoxious gentlemen who are in this locality engaged in the business. Mr. West. Well, there are a lot of them. The Chairman. How many would you say there are? Mr. West. To take the whole of the Chickasaw Nation, I would say there are at least one hundred. The Chairman. That includes the whole Chickasaw Nation? Mr. West. Yes, sir. . The Chairman. How many would you say are engaged m the business here in Ardmore and its immediate vicinity? S. Rep. 501.3, 59-2, pt 1 67 1042 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Mx. West. Perhaps there are a dozen. Senator Long. Will we be permitted to hear from them? Mr. West. Yes, sir; I think you will. They are here. Would you like to have them pointed out? The Chairman. Taking your general term of "grafter" and your definition of it as being a man engaged in the buying and selling of real estate, has your experience or observation been such that you can state whether the proportion of the number engaged in this bus- iness in this community would be different from the proportion engaged in business of a like character in a community of like size in a new State elsewhere? Mr. West. Do you mean whether or not the proportion wiU l^e about the same as it would be in any other new State? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. West. No, sir; I don't think it would be. The Chaieman. Would it be greater or less ? Mr. West. I think it would be much less here. i The Chairman. Then you think it would be much less here than it would be in Colorado or Wyoming ? Mr. West. No, sir. I mean in those States where you have men doing a legitimate real estate business. The Chairman. Are the grafters 'all real estate men? Mr. West. No, sir. Now, I wish you to understand me; I don't mean that a real estate man is necessarily a grafter. There is a differ- ence between a bona fide real estate man and a grafter. The Chairman. You do not mean to say then that all real estate men are grafters, but am I to understand you to say that all grafters are engaged in the real estate business? Mr. West. Yes, sir; almost all of them are engaged in the leasing and selling, and buying and handling of farms, but not in handling city property. I do not know of any of them that handle farm lands who handle city property. The Chairman. Real estate furnishes the most of their business ? ' Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do I understand you to say that there were hun- dreds of them — was it "one hundred" or "hundreds" of them in the Chickasaw Nation, as you understood it ? Mr. West. "Hundreds" of grafters? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. West. Well, if I said that I said wrong. It was not my inten- tion to express myself that way, if I did. The Chairman. What did you mean to say? Mr. West. I said, or meant to say, and I think I did say, that there were probably one hundred of them in the different towns. The Chairman. I wanted to know whether you said that there were "hundreds" or whether it was just "one hundred?" Mr. West. I said there were probably one hundred of them in the Chickasaw Nation. The Chairman. That is all I wished to ask on that point. Mr. West. I want to say, gentlemen, that I came here sixteen years ago, and practically 95 per cent of the farms in the Chickasaw Nation have been put in cultivation since I came here; and that on hundreds of acres of the finest agricultural lands that were here when I came here it is now washed away and full of gullies. Now the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1043 farmer has no interest in it excepting for the one year he is on it, and the making it produce all it can for that year, and the grafter has no interest in it excepting for what he can get out of the farmer for that one year; and the fences are rotted down and the houses fast rotting down. Senator Beandegee. Was that land washed away because of the plowing? Mr. West. Yes, sir; the plowing and not protecting it against the rains. Especially is that true of the timbered land, and that tunber land, when cleared up, is very valuable land. Senator Bkandegee. Is that the best land here ? Mr. West. Yes, sir; the timber land is the most productive land in this country. Senator Beandegee. The timber land is better fthan the prairie land? Mr. West. Yes, sir; the timber land in this country is the most productivey-well, of course, the most productive land is the land along the rivers or streams in the bottoms. The Chaieman. What is the tenure of the lease acquired by the grafter from the allottee? It is limited by time, and what is that limit? Mr. West. It is usually for five years. The Chaieman. Well, in rentiag it out, the farmer who rents it from the grafter has it for the same tenure, hasn't he ? Mr. West. No, sir; he only has it for the one year. The Chaieman. He only gets it for one year ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. I don't know of one who has it for more than a year. The Chaieman. Well, couldn't they make a better contract with the farmer by renting it to him for the full term of five years than they can by renting it to him for only the one year ? Mr. West. You can depend on it that the grafter rents it to the best. My observation is that they can't, from this fact, that the most of the grafters who have land under their control are now demanding a money consideration from the farmer for the use of the land. They won't rent it as they used to do for one-third or one- fourth. They put the rental value so high that the farmer won't stay on it, and he goes on to some other place and the grafter gets a farmer to take it from some other State. The Chaieman. And he is a "sucker," so to speak? Mr. West. Yes, sir; that is the class we have down here. Conse- quently our farmers are changing around from pillar to post and from post to pillar all the tune, and none of them are settled or do much good for themselves. Now, I will proceed. The rural com- munities are, as the consequence, far behind the city communities in progress and development, and hundreds of our best farmers, who came here expecting to secure homes, are moving away to more favored communities. All of our people, on account of the intoler- able condition of the farmers, are suffering in common with him, because all our business is primarily founded here on the agricultural resources of the country. The two-fold good intent, therefore, both of Congress and the Secretary of the Interior, to protect the Indian without retarding the development of the country, has, from 1044 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. the complexity of the situation, proven unsatisfactory and partially abortive. We shall attempt hereafter to suggest a suitable remedy for this; but before doing so, beg to suggest that if Congress is wedded to the leasing system, let the leases be made direct to the f amier, in tracts not exceeding 160 acres each, in such a way that a part of the rents may be utilized to improve the land, whilst the remainder be paid to the Indian direct. Under the present system the Indian gets practically nothing; the farmer has no conveniences or accommo- dations, but the grafter gets all. Under the plan we suggest the Indian would get much more than he now_ does, while some of the rents would go to improve the premises. But the whole lease system is unwise and unjust, and operates with blighting effect. Instance Ireland, whose sons have abandoned their native land and sought homes ia other climes, just as thousands of our farmers are leaving here for places where homes may be ob- tained. Patriotism and good citizenship spring from the home, and the reverse is bred by a condition of tenantry. There is im- planted in the breast of every man the desire for that place which he may call his castle; which, though so humble that the sun shines through, the rain penetrates, and the wintry blasts blow through, yet is so much his own that no man, be he the greatest in the land, dares invade its threshhold without his consent. It is home, home, sweet home, that elevates the man and makes a mighty nation. And so well has our own country recognized this that from the early days when the lands west of the Ohio were purchased its public domain has always been disposed of in a way that the actual resident farmer might secure himself a home. Likewise, Congress has recog- nized this in its legislation touching the affairs of the Choctaws and Chickasaws. But before we enter mto this matter, we desire briefly to call your attention to other matters which must necessarily be considered in devising means through which the farmer may secure himself a home here. The incompetent Indian who owns these lands is by nature a spendthrift, and is peculiarly liable to being cheated and defrauded. He must not be compelled to convey his land involuntarily, and, when he conveys them voluntarily, must be protected against his own infirmities. Few of the adults of them will ever contract habits of industry and economy, and we must look to the children of the present generation and the succeeding generations for progress and development. If the restrictions on alienation were entirely removed it is probable that within six months thereafter every Indian will have sold his land and within another six months will have spent every single cent of the purchase money. Also we must remember that the legislation should be such as to promote the prosperity of all and not of a favored few. The enlightened public policy that will redound to the benefit of all alike alone is to be desired. Society is so interlinked, and all its component parts so dovetailed one into another, that the prosperity of one without injury to any results in the prosperity of the whole; while an injury to one, without a benefit to any save the grafter, is disastrous to all. Therefore, if prosperity can come to the farmer, the Indians,, unless injured by the system, must of necessity be benefited thereby, and share in the general pros- perity. But this is not all. We must also remember that the present E'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1045 system of landlord and tenantry, although designed to protect the Indian, has proven here a failure. The Indian has proven himself to be an incompetent landlord, and the grafter continually overreaches Mm. The safeguards thrown around him have proven insufficient; and in the exercise of the soverign rights as such landlord, the inten- tions of Congress have been frustrated. Congress has seen this, and it was not difficult to see, and in the act of April 26, 1906, in the case of full bloods, took away from them the right to rent their own land for more than a year, except as authorized by the Secretary of the Interior. Unless the guardianship of the Government and the con- dition of tutelage of the Indian be exercised and enforced to a greater extent, we have the present deplorable conditions to enlighten us as to what the present partial exercise thereof produces. Senator Long. When was that act passed ? Mr. West. In April, 1906. We return now to the proofs to show — that Congress has, by previous legislation, recognized that the acquisition of homes is desir- able and for the best interests of the country, and also to show how the grafter, by an abuse of our peculiar conditions, has cheated and disappointed the expectations of Congress, and brought immerited criticism upon the Secretary of the Interior. The act of July 1, 1902, commonly known as the supplemental treaty, provides in section 12 thereof as follows Eacli member of said tribe shall at the time of the selection of his allotment desig- nate as a homestead out of the said allotment land equal in value to 160 acres of the average allotable lands of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, as nearly as may be, which shall be inalienable during the lifetime of the allottee, not exceeding twenty- one years from the date of the certificate of allotment, and separate certificates and patent shall issue for said homestead. As many Indians are annually dying, it follows that a little land is, each year, under this provision, placed upon the market for sale, but as we shall hereafter show, the farmer secures little benefit therefrom, and the Indian gets less than the lands actual value. Section 16 thereof provides: All lands allotted to the members of said tribe, except such land as is set aside to each for a homestead as herein provided, shall be alienable after issuance of patent as follows: One-fourth in acreage m one year, one-fourth in acreage in three years, and the balance in five years, in each case from date of patent: Provided, That such lands shall not be alienable by the allottee or his heirs at any time before the expiration of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribal governments for less than its appraised value. Subsequently Congress enacted a law removing the restrictions on the ahenation of the surplus lands of allottees other than those of Indian blood, and also authorized the Secretary of the Interior, where a proper showing is made, to remove the restriction upon the aliena- tion of the lands of those possessed of Indian blood. Later, on April 26, 1906, on account of the unsatisfactory operation of the aforemen- tioned laws, Congress withdrew the privilege of limited ahenation theretofore accorded the full-blooded Indian, but made no change as to the others, and also provided that the allotment of deceased allot- tees, where the heirs were full bloods, when sold, should be sold imder the supervisory direction of the Secretary of the Interior. Now how have these laws operated in actual practice ? Let us see. When the allotments began the Indians lived in remote sections of the country, and thereafterwards few of them left their ancestral homes to reside upon their allotments. Two reasons contributed mostly to 1046 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. this: firstly, the love of the old home and disinclmation to take up a residence among strange white people; secondly, the grafter, havmg rented all the Indians ' land, there was nothing left for him. As a result of this few of the farmers know who the Indian allottee of the land on which he resides is, and fewer still know his residence, a condition which the grafter is studious to maintain. None of them know the date of the patent to the land of said allottees nor when the surplus lands become alienable imder section 16, above. All throughout the Indian communities men are posted who immediately report to the grafter the death of any allottee. What then ? When a death of an Indian allottee occm-s, the grafter securing immediate notice thereof, hastens to the scene and purchases the land from the heirs of the deceas_pd allottee. The price paid is little above the appraised value, and always far below the actual value. If the farmer learns of the death of the Indian and the residence of his heirs, which he is likely not to do, he is practically shut out from buying, because of the long imex- Eired lease on the premises held by the grafter, which the grafter •equently keeps alive by renewing the same for five years, canceling the old one. A change in the law, such that the Indian may secure the full actual value of these inherited lands, whilst permitting the farmer to become the purchaser thereof, thereby secioxing himself a home, would be infinitely better than the present plan. The grafter will also pur- chase practically all the surplus lands as they become alienable, under section 16, above, for, knowing the residence of the allottees and the date of their patent, he has an immeasurable advantage in the pur- chase of them, and besides holfls his five-year lease thereon, thus shutting out competition. And while all this is bad, the extrava- gance and prodigality with which the Indian spends his pitiful sum IS worse, for, as stated above, frugality and economy are not a part of his nature. But it may be urged that the law relative to the removal of restric- tions by the Secretary of the Interior is not open to these objections. Are they ? Let us see. When a grafter decides to purchase the lands of one of these he induces the Indian to promise to sell him these lands at a given price in the event the restrictions can be removed. He then prepares for the Indian, either himself personally or through an attorney, the necessary data for the removal of said restrictions, coaches the Indian in the necessary answers to make, and thus secures for the Indian what they both desire. On receiving notice that the restrictions are removed he goes to the Indian and procures, in accordance with their prior agreement, a conveyance to said lands, a small amount of money having been already paid to the Indian. As a result the farmer seldom ever buys and the Indian seldom secures full value. It is the outrageous abuse of our complex "and intricate situation by the grafters in these and other ways, more than the policy of Congress and the Secretary of the Interior, that has pro- duced so much dissatisfaction and called forth so much complaint. The grafter must be entirely gotten rid of — now, at once, and forever. Senator Long. How are you going to do it ? Mr. West. Take him out and kill him if there is no other way. The Chairman. Do you want the consent of Congress to do that ? IVIr. West. Well, I don't know about that. We want your aid and assistance. We place this matter in your hands, and if there is any FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. l047 means or way in which the matter can be accomplished, I say in God's name eiye it to us. Gentlemen, you don't know what the condition of this country is. If you did, you would not hesitate a moment to do anything and everything to relieve it. It is worse than deplorable. It is ruinous. The Chairman. Then the legislation that Congress has given this country has not been beneficial to it ? Mr. West. I should say not. Now, we know that the intention of Congress has been all right. We are not accusing Congress of inten- tionally doing anything to injure us The Chairman. Regardless of the intention, the result has not been beneficial ? Mr. West. The result of all the legislation has been a failure. We know that Congress could not see that the result would be the breeding of this race of oloodsuckers that are sapping the very life out of the country The Chairman. Can you not suggest to the committee some method of remedying this condition? We are here to ascertain conditions and to suggest a remedy, if possible, and it is up to you people to give us the benefit of your experience here. Congress has been groping around as well as it could, but largely in the dark, making an honest effort to improve conditions, but it does not seem to have succeeded very well. It seems to be the opinion ( almost universally entertained) of the inhabitants of the Territory, and we know it is the opinion of a great many of the Members of Congress and the Senate that some- thing ought to be done, because Congress feels that it has failed in its efforts. Can you suggest any plan, along the line of which Congress can legislate, so as to effectually get rid of these troubles ? Mr. West. Well, I will suggest a little further along the means by which we believe this trouble can be obviated to a very great extent in the future. There have been plenty of suggestions made in the past, and attempts that have failed to remedy conditions, and whether these suggestions will operate the way we believe they will or not, we don't know. However, we have them here for your consideration. The Chairman. That is what we want to hear. Mr. West. Well, here it is : We believe that that enlightened public policy which will be productive of the general welfare and prosperity of all, securing to the Indian all his just rights, protecting him against his own infirmities, and at the same time permitting the farmers to secure their wives and little children homes, is the proper solution of this whole question. This can be brought about by removing at once the restrictions upon the alienation of a part of the adult Indian allottee's lands, coupling the same with a provision that the purchaser can not acquire title direct from Indian allottees cumulatively to land m excess of 160 acres, and then not until after he has resided on the lands, in analogy to the homestead laws, for a period of five years. The price at which it may be sold may be determined in various ways. If by dhect legislation, let it be at not less than two and one-half to three times its appraised value. In the act of July 1, 1902, Congress provided that the surplus should not be sold during the existence of the tribal governments for less than its appraised value, but the appraised value is far below its actual value The Chairman. Its present appraised value? 1048 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. West. Yes, sir. I will state that the white people who have intermarried here, as they have their restrictions removed, and sell their surplus lands — sell them at about, on an average, two or three times the appraised value. The Chairman. In other words, the comparative value of the land is about two and a half times the value placed on it by the Dawes Commission? Mr. West. Yes sir, from two to three times; the appraised value is far below its actual value. The actual value is two and one-half to three times the appraised value. The value may be determined by some officer specially appointed for that purpose, whose appraisal, being spread on record, shall be the minimum price at which it may be sold. If the Indian is competent to manage his own affairs, which may be determined as Congress, in its wisdom, may direct, allow all the purchase money to be paid at once in cash; if incompetent, then let the sale be made on long-time payments, drawing interest, so that the Indian may have each year an income coming in, and be pro- tected against squandering the purchase money immediately, as the incompetent ones likely would d!o. Provide, also, that the purchase- money indebtedness shall be nonassignable, as otherwise the grafter will discount the deferred payments for a mere song. The amount of the lands of each allottee withheld from alienation should be pro- vided for. Considering that few of the competent Indians will sell, and the incompetent ones, not being industrious, will need only a small amount, it is probable that 80 acres would be a sufficient amount to reserve from sale. This is the full amount of a Creek Indian's home- stead allotment. By the immediate removal of the restrictions, the monopolization of these lands by the grafter, some of whom now own five and ten thousand acres each in fee simple, will come to an end. The Indians will receive more for their lands, and still have a homestead, and the spendthrifty ones protected. The farmers can secure homes, and having done so, will greatly improve their farms. The amount of taxable property will be increased, and the burden of government be more easily supported. Above all, general and universal prosperity will follow. Also expedite the sale of the surface of the segregated mineral lands, and the surplus lands left after all allotments are taken. In thesale of them, provide, as is suggested above, that they be sold for their actual value in tracts not exceeding 160 acres each, either for cash or on annual payments, and the purchaser be required to live on the lands for a period of five years before he becomes entitled to a patent. Do this, and we assure you that the hopes, intentions, and expecta- tions of Congress will not be cheated and disappointed as heretofore, the universal discontent and dissatisfaction will cease, and peace, pros- perity, and happiness will c6me to all. Senator Brandegee. I did not hear, or do not remember, if I did hear it, whether you stated in the beginning of your remarks, that there was a convention of farmers held about this matter. Mr. West. Yes, sir; the Farmers' Union held a convention here last week, and they have a gentleman here who, this evening sometime, will present their views. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES, 1049 Senator Brandegee. What does this union represent in a general way? Mr. West. The farmers generally of the country. Senator Brandegee. How many delegates attended that conven- tion? Mr. West. About 50. Senator Brandegee. Did you present this paper and read it there? Mr. West. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Did you prepare this at their suggestion? Mr. West. No, sir; I prepared it first myself, and then submitted it to them, and they indorsed it. Senator Brandegee. Are you a Farmers' Union man? Mr. West. No, sir; I do not belong to the Farmers' Union. Senator Brandegee. That is all. Mr. West. Now, gentlemen, I have a number of these printed, and I would like to file one with you. The Chairman. Very well; we would be glad to have you do so. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the practical opera- tions of this question you heard us discuss here this afternoon, con- cerning the appointment of guardians for orphan Indian children in the Indian nations ? Mr. West. Only from hearsay. The Chairman. All you know about it is hearsay? Mr. West. Yes, sir; all I know is what I hear about it. I know that it is being done, but I don't know anything about how it is done. I haven't examined records about it, but I know it is being done just like I know many other things are. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the guardian has the actual custody of these children for whom he is guardian? Mr. West. I think not. If he does it is in only very few cases. All he does is to handle the estate of the minor. The Chairman. And that is all he wishes to do ? Mr. West. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. The Chairman. It is not the child he is after, but the estate of the child? Mr. West. That is my understanding. The Chairman. What becomes of the child ? Mr. West. That does not concern the guardian. He does not pay any attention to them, and most of them are scattered around over the country. The Chairman. Where ? Mr. West. In various places; some are in orphan schools, and some in other places. Of course I don't know so much about the other tribes, but the Choctaws and Chickasaws take care of their orphan children in an orphans' home. The Chairman. Does this guardianship extend to children who have estates, and are not orphans but live at home ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. _ The Chairman. It extends to children where their parents are living ? Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are there many of that class of cases where the children live at home and have guardians ? 1050 FIVE CIVILIZED -TRIBES. Mr. West. Lots of them — hundreds of them. Where both of the parents are Hving, some white man is appointed their guardian and he has their property under his control. It is a common thing. I don't know how many there are in the Choctaw and Chickasaw na- tions, but there are hundreds and perhaps thousands of them. The Chairman. Do you know of your own knowledge numerous instances of that kind? Mr. West. Yes, sir; I think I do. The Chairman. Is there any law authorizing the appointment of a guardian excepting on the application of the incompetent, or the parents of the child ? Mr. West. Well, not being a lawyer I could not say, but as a rule it is practiced here in the courts. The Chairman. You said something about 25 per cent of the full- blood Indians being capable of transacting their own business with- out being imposed on? Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. As to the other 75 per cent you think they are incapable of transacting their own business? Mr. West. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Let me ask you whether they are frail — that is, have they any vicious or dissolute habits of life such as drunken- ness? I am referring now to the full bloods. Mr. West. Yes, sir; a large majority of them will get drunk at every opportunity. They are all the time seeking a chance to get liquor. The Chairman. Have they any opportunities for getting liquor? Mr. West. Yes, sir. This is supposed to be a prohibition Terri- tory, but they can get it here all right. The Chairman. Do they manufacture it ? Mr. West. Not that I know of. The Chairman. How do they get it? Mr. West. It is shipped in here by express and in different other ways. They will readily pay out any money if they have it, for a bottle of whisky or bitters. They are strong on these so-called "bitters." It is the besetting vice of the Indians here as elsewhere. Even Indians that are considered ordinarily intelligent will do that. The trouble with all the Indians is that they don't seem to know the value of a dollar like a white man does. I have associated with them a great deal, and have had many opportunities for observing them, and I know what I am saying. The ordinary Indian, and some who are considered more than on the average intelligent, don't seem to know what money is good for except to spend as soon as they get it. Now, you can take one of them and converse with him and you would say that man is a man of more than ordinary intelli- gence. You would be impressed with his intelligence, and he is ordinarily, but when it comes to handling his money he absolutely don't know anything more about it than an infant. I have associ- ated with them quite a bit here in our new State, and it is a fact that they don't know no more about handling their money than a 10- year-old child. The Chairman. Does he know anything about the value of his land? PIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1051 Mr. West. No, sir; he will part with his land just as readily as he will with his money, and he has no more conception of the value of one than of the other. The Chairman. He has no fixed idea of home or its surroundings or desire for location, In other words, home has no charms for him ? Mr. West. No, sir. Especially is this true of the full bloods. As a rule the full blood is contented with everything just as nature has provided it, and does not care to build up the country. Indeed, he don't know what a phrase like that, "building up the country" means. He has been watched over and provided for so long that it seems to have destroyed all initiative, and he is content to just sit down and wait for things to happen, and if they happen all right, all right, and if they come at him all wrong, that is all right too. He is a type of fatalist who takes everj^thing that comes, and don't do much kicking about it. If he was gifted with the capacity for kicking that the average white man has, there would be a noise going up from this Territory the like of which never was heard before. You don't hear much kicking here from the Indians. It is the white men who are doing the kicking, and the Indian — the one that has a right to be kicking — is not saying a word. The white men are kicking, a good many of them, for a better chance to skin the Indian; but they are not all like that. The Indian is bound to be skinned anyway, do what you may; but you can keep them from taking all the hide off him right at once. Senator Long. The agony will be prolonged? Mr. West. Yes, sir; and perhaps the Indian will get out of their clutches and save a little of it. The Chairman. Is the Indian indolent? Mr. West. Most Indians are. The Chairman. Do they do very much farming? Mr. West. Very few of the full bloods do any farming to amount to anything. The Chairman." Can any large number of them read and write? Mr. West. Many more of them than you would think. This is true especially of the younger element Most of the younger element have a pretty fair common school education. Take them from 21 years down, most of them can read and write. The Chairman. The English language ? Mr. West. Yes, sir; they can read and write English, and speak it, too. The Chairman. Is the native language also taught in the schools here ? Mr. West. No, sir; it is not taught in the schools. Nothing but the English is taught in the schools. The Chairman. Gentlemen, in view of the fact that this question of guardianship has arisen here in the shape it has, growing out of the statement of Mr. Johnson, I have requested Mr. Campbell, clerk of the United States district court, and his probate clerk to appear before us and make a statement in regard to this matter of guardian- ships. If Mr. Campbell is here, I would be glad if he will give us some information upon this subject of guardianships. Mr. Campbell came forward . 1052 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. STATEMENT OF MB. C. M. CAMPBELL. Mr. Campbell. I am Mr. Campbell, gentlemen, and I shall be glad to give you any information you may desire. Any questions you pro- pound I shall be glad to answer to the best of my ability. The Chairman. Mr. Campbell, the question of the appointment of guardians of Indian minors has been brought before the committee, not only here, but at the other places, where we have held sessions, and we have thought that perhaps you could furnish us with some information on that matter. Mr. Campbell. Those are matters upon which my chief clerk could give you more information than I could. The matter of the appointment of guardians and administrators is something that is always attended to by the clerk of the court in vacation, as the law requires, subject to confirmation by the court. I have my chief clerk here who attends to all that business, and probably he can give you more accurate information than 1 can, and if you will hear him and question him, I believe it would be more satisfactory. I would rather you would do that, because all these matters go through his hands and he is in a position to give you more accurate information. The Chairman. That is perfectly satisfactory to us. Mr. Campbell. These appointments are always made by the clerk in vacation, subject to the confirmation of the court. It is presumed to be clerical duty entirely. There is some conflict of opinion as to how it should be done, but Mr. McCoy, the clerk, is here, and he can tell you just exactly how it is done. He can tell you the routine course it takes in the clerk's office at any rate. STATEMENT OF MB. NELSON H. M'COY. The Chairman. You are chief clerk in the office of clerk of the court here, are you not ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You have supervision of the appointment of guardians of minor Indian children, I believe ? Mr. McCoT. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Will you be kind enough to inform the committee of the modus operandi that is followed in reference to the application and appointment of guardians of these Indian children ? Mr._ McCoy. Yes, sir; I will do so. In the first place, it requires a petition for the appointment of a guardian, and that is presented to the clerk. That petition is made according to the law of Arkansas in reference to such matters. It is presented and filed with the clerk in vacation. The petition states the amount of the estate of the minor. Bond is required from the applicant in an amount double the value of the estate, and the appointment is then made, if every- thing appears to be all right. The appointment is made by the clerk in vacation. If the appointment is made during the term of court it is made in open court. Now I believe that constitutes the manner in which the appointment of a guardian is made. A complete record is made in the clerk's office of all these proceedings. Before the appointment of a guardian is made finally, the clerk or the court must be first satisfied that the person m.aking applica- FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 1053 tion is the proper person or a proper person to be the guardian or the curator of the estate of the child. In many instances, of course, where parents are not able to execute or make a bond, or can not attend to tne renting of the estate, or the matters connected with the estate, they sometimes — the parents sometimes come into court or present a waiver, either personally or through some other source — tney sign a waiver asking the court to appoint some other person to manage the estate as guardian or curator. The Chairman. Let me ask you if that request is considered man- datory on the court? That is, is the court, on the application of the natural guardian, compelled to appoint the person selected or designated by the natural guardian ? Mr. McCoy. The appointment has to be made unless the person for whom application is made and in whose favor the waiver and request for appointment is made, is, in the opinion of the clerk, an unfi t person to be appointed The Chairman, rardon me. I interrupted you merely for the purpose of ascertaining that fact. Then, if in the opinion of the clerk that person is unfit he is under no obligation to appoint him? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; he don't have to appoint him. I don't know that I can say any more. The Chairman. You have not in this Territory as they have in California and some of the other States, a public administrator have you? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. We have been informed by previous speakers that there are in business down here, people who, for lack of a better term by which to describe them, may be called "professional guard- ians;" men who seek to become guardians of a large number of Indian children ? Is that correct ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; that is true to a certain extent. The- Chairman. To what extent is it true? Mr. McCoy. It has been impossible under the law to appoint a guardian unless a bond was given. That being the case it has been unpossible in a very large number of cases for the Indian father of the child (or the Indian mother of the child, if the father was dead); in nearly every such case it has been impossible for the natural guardian of the child to give bond. They must therefore have some guardian appointed who is able to give bond. The Chairman. What is the penalty of the bond usually ? Mr. McCoy. The bonds are made out in an amount double the value of the estate. The Chairman. Double the appraised value of the estate ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; the value of the estate is verified by affidavit and the bond is in double that amount. The Chairman. In an ordinary case what would be the amount of the bond ? Mr. McCoy. $2,000. The Chairman. That would be on the basis of a valuation of $1,000 for the estate? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Does the clerk require a bond of $2,000 m each case, exclusive of the obligations on other bonds that the same guar- 1054 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. dian may have in the case of the estates of other Indian children for whom this same man has quahfied as guardian ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then the man who was already guardian, say for 100 Indian children, would have to execute, in your office, bonds, and and make a showing also that he had the amount of $200,000 in prop- erty subject to execution? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. How then is it done ? Mr. McCoy. The sureties would have to do that. The Chairman. Well, I mean that whoever gave the bond would have to do that ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. In a great many instances the bond has been made by a surety company. The Chairman. Oh, yes; I understand. Mr. McCoy. In fact in most all cases the bond is made by a surety company. That is the rule here. There are very few personal bonds given here. The Chairman. Have you a trust company here that acts in that capacity and furnishes bonds of that character? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. We have one company here, but they are not on any bonds now. The Chairman. What companies furnish these bonds now ? Mr. McCoy. The Eastern bonding companies do it now. There is the Fidelity and Casualty Company and other Eastern bonding companies furnishing them now, for they have their agencies here, and they execute their bonds through their agents. The Chairman. Their agents on the ground here are authorized to execute these bonds ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. At whose instance do these surety companies exe- cute the bonds of that character ? Mr. McCoy. They do it upon the application of the administrator, or guardian, to the company's agents here, and the agents here of the bonding companies have a power of attorney from the board of direct- ors of the company to execute these bonds and bind the company. The Chairman. Who pays the premium for the bond ? Mr. McCoy. The guardian pays it, and it comes out of the estate. The Chairman. Ultimately it comes out of the estate of the minor? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The man making the application for guardianship of the minor makes the application to the bond company for this bond? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He does that of course, provided he is not capblea of making it himself. Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And he pays the fee for getting it? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And charges what he pays for it against the estate? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is the object of a guardian usually ? Is it for the care and protection of the child during its minority that the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1055 guardian seeks to get that position? Is that his primary object in seeldng the position of guardian ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; it is in nearly every instance for the purpose of caring for the estate. The estate can't be rented unless there is a guardian, for the minor can't rent it. It can't be rented unless it is approved by the court first, but first of all there must be a guardian appointed before it can be done. There are a great many things that can't be done without a guardian. For instance, the child's money can't be drawn from the Government. The Chaieman. Do you find there are persons here who are fre- quently making applications for that position in different instances, and if so, to what extent have you found them making these applica- tions — that is, how frequently have you found one individual mak- ing these applications for appointment to the position of guardian- ship? I ask this question, for we have heard of one man being appointed guardian m 90 different instances. Do you know of any case like that ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; I know of one instance where one man has been appointed guardian of probably as many as 100 minors, but in the particular case I refer to it was Mr. Brock, but that was done at the suggestion of Judge Dickerson for the protection of the estate of the minor. The Chairman. It was! What a philanthropic act ! Did you ever find any other case where people were actuated only by motives of philanthropy in seeking the appointment of guardian, or did you find some sinister and selfish motive in it ? In other words, did you find any other case where they were so anxious from a philanthropic spirit to get charge of the estate of the minor, and get a bond company or trust company to furnish the bond, so that they could help the child and protect it and its estate, or were they simply seeking to get charge of the estate, and in disposing of it rent it out to some one, so they could enrich themselves without regard to the welfare of the chUd or minor ? Mr. McCoy. I don't know what their object was. All this must be done subject to the approval of the court. The Chairman. What about the minor? Who looks after h i m or her, as the case may be ? Mr. McCoy. Everything is done subject to the approval of the court, and the interest of the minor is very closely looked after always. If a man is appointed guardian in 100 cases, it would probably be better for the minors under his charge, for he would look after their interests and estates more closely. If a man was guardian for 100 minors he could give all his time to looking after their estates, and if he was guardian for only a few he couldn't afford to give them all his attention. The Chairman. You think in that case he would do better than if he only had one or five or ten ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; I do. The Chairman. And what did you say were your reasons for enter- taining that opinion ? Mr. McCoy. Well, I said it would be better probably in that case than if he only had one, because he could give his entire attention to it then, and he would be more careful. 1056 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. What fee does the guardian get in one of these cases ? Mr. McCoy. He gets the fee that is allowed by the court. The Chaieman. What is that fee, usually? Mr. McCoy. It varies. It is a fee allowed by the court, and is an allowance made by the court that is supposed to be a reasonable compensation for the trouble he has been to in looking after the estate. The Chaieman. And that fee varies in different cases? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; it would be owing to conditions. The Chairman. Have you discovered in any of these cases that the guardian is interested directly or indirectly in any of these leases that are granted — that is to say, does he become the beneficiary" in any way, directly or indirectly, in the lease or leases ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; it is impossible for the guardian to become directly interested, and I don't believe he could gain much by being indirectly interested, because his reports are scanned very closely by the probate clerk, because he inquires into the matter and goes into all the details as close as he would in a business matter or transaction for himself, and then that is passed up to the court, and the court passes on it, and I can't see how any acLvantage can be taken of the minor, even if the man was disposed to do it. The Chairman. And you don't think, I would infer from that remark, that the guardian is disposed to take any advantage of the minor? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; I haven't seen anything that would make me think so. The Chairman. Now, in point of fact, has it not become a sort of a business here in the Indian Territory for certain men to try and get the guardianship of minor children; has that not become a sort of an industry, so to speak? Mr. McCoy. I could not say that it has. The Chairman. In this one instance you say it was done at the request of the court, and that was very laudable; but when you find that this same man is coming up and seeking to be appointed in very many instances, would you not then think that it was a sinister motive that prompted him in seeking these guardianships rather than the welfare of the children? Mr. McCoy. I don't think so. The Chairman. It is the general impression of the people of this country, so far as we have heard it expressed, that this question of procurmg guardianships of children is a species of the worst and most unconscionable kind of graft. We want to get at the truth or falsity of that sentiment. Mr. McCoy. Well, I do not believe it has been a bad species of graft, for this reason: When the allotments were first made, in 1903, the Indians had no money at all to go to the land office. Most of them had no improved farms, and had no money at all to go any- where, much less to the land office to make their allotments. Most of the Indians had no improved farms, and the farms were all held by farmers out in the country, and in large tracts. These lands were all held by the wealthy and enterprising classes of the Indians — that is, the smart ones. Now, these children and incompetent Indians would not possibly have been able to get good allotments or improved FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 1057 lands had it not been for the grafter. Now, I think some consideration is due to the g-raf ter for getting good lands or improved lands for them that they could allot, and did allot. The Chairman. Do you mean the grafter or the guardian? Mr. McCoy. I mean the grafter— of course the grafter had to get a lease on the land through the guardian. Where the allottees were children there had to be a guardian appointed before they could do anything. The Chairman. Do you think there was any complicity or collu- sion between the guardian and the grafter to share m the profits of these deals? Mr. McCoy. I have no doubt of it. The Chairman. You think that is so? Mr. McCoy. I haven't the least doubt of it. I presume that it is so. ' The Chairman. If you found a man coming to' you and making application after application to you to be made the guardian of minor Indian children, which would be sufficient to put you on your inquiry on that very proposition, would you not be inclined to take some steps looking toward a discontinuance of that practice and seeing that some_ one else was appointed guardian of these children who had more interest in their welfare, who would administer their estates to the very best advantage of the children ? Mr. McCoy. I presume so, but that is not the condition here. In cases where the parents of the minor had made a special request that a certain man be appointed as guardian for his child, we in every instance granted that request and made the appointment. The Chairman. Do you think that the parents of these minors knew what they were doing? I understand that they are mostly full bloods and ignorant; would they know what they were signing when they would sign a request of that kind? Mr. McCoy. I don't know. A man is presumed to know what he is signing. I would not know them, and I take it that it is no part of my duty to make a personal investigation into the circumstances surrounding these matters. If I did I would be doing nothing else. I haven't the time nor the money to do that work. When a person brings in such a request properly prepared, certified, and witnessed, I have no option in the matter — the way I look at it — but make the appointment. The Chairman. In that case do you not think the parent of the child was approached by the grafter and requested by him to make application that a certain party be appointed guardian of his child? Mr. McCoy. I don't know, sir; but I presume in many instances that was done. I expect that the grafter was getting through the guardian the improved farm of this child, which in five years would be turned over to the child and would become a valuable allotment, which the child would not have had had it not been for the enter- prise of the grafter. "These men called "grafters" are not such bad fellows. "They are painted a great deal blacker than they deserve. They spend a lot of money in getting these allotments made to these ignorant Indians. They hunted up the land and got it identified and classified and arranged, and then they hunted up the Indian, who would never have known of the existence of this good land if it had not been for the grafter, and the grafter took the Indians to it and S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 68 1058 ITFE CIVILIZED TBIBBS. showed it to them, and then took them to the land office and had it allotted to them all at his own expense, for there was not one in a hundred of these Indians who had a cent to do that with, and I think it is right that these people called "grafters" should have a chance to get their money_ back and a lot more along with it. They took their chance on Josing it all, and they were doing the Indians a real valuable service, so I don't see why any kick should be made against their having the land for five years and making what they can out of it in that time. It won't be long until the time will come when they can't get it The Chairman. I would infer from what you say that you have a a pretty good opinion of the grafter ? , Mr. McCoy. I have the opinion of them I have expressed. I believe in fair play. The Chairman. You say that the grafter got a good farm for the child? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; a good farm that it never would have got if it had not been for him. If it hadn't been for the grafter the child and his father and mother and all his relatives womd, beyond any question, have taken their allotments back in the hills and mountains where they live, for they did not know a piece of good land when they saw it. The land where they were born and raised was their ideal of good land, and that is where they would have taken land had not some one come along and offered them an induce- ment to allot elsewhere. The Chairman. Do you think that the grafter was greatly inter- ested in securing a good allotment for the child ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; I do. The Chairman. Then you say that the grafter was very much inter- ested in seeing that the child got a valuable farm — you hav6 not a bad opinion of the grafter, it seems? Mr. McCoy. He wanted the child to get a good farm. The Chairman. He was so much interested in the child that he wanted him to get a good farm ? Mr. McCoy. He wanted the child to get a good farm, not because he was interested in the child, but because he thought it would profit him if the child got a good farm. The Chairman. That it would profit him, the grafter, if the child secured a good allotment ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. 'The Chairman. Then he was not interested in the child from a philanthropic or humanitarian standpoint? Mr. McCoy. Not at all. I don't think the grafter cared anything about the welfare of the child or whether it got a good farm or not, unless he could make something out of it. The Chairman. Then you think the grafter is looking out for num- ber one ? Mr. McCoy. Decidedly I do. I don't think he is ever looking out for anyone else. The Chairman. He wanted the child to get a good farm, so that he, the grafter, would profit by it? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then, so far as the grafter was concerned, he wag actuated by a sinister motive ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1059 Mr. McCoy. I don't want you to misunderstand me. I think the grafter is entitled to fair play, like anyone else, but at the same time if he loses out, now and then, I don't pity him. He is on the make all the time, and he don't do anything that he don't expect will be profitable to him, but he don't always win out by a whole lot. The Chairman. It would look to me, if I were in yom- position, that where a man is going into the guardianship business so extensively, there must be some collusion between the guardian and the grafter, and whatever obligation the child or its parents may be under to the grafter, that is something that does not concern the guardian. The guardian, imder the law of every coimtry on earth, civilized or unciv- flized, is imder obligation to obey the laws of the country and the laws of honor in the performance of his trust, solely in the interest of his ward, and any deal that he has with a grafter in that regard disquali- fies him for the performance of his trust, and if justice were meted out to him he ought to be wearing stripes. As to the custody of the child, would that, too, be awarded by the court to the grafter ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. What would be done with it ? Mr. McCoy. It would be left with the parents. The Chairman. What would be done with it if it was unfortunate enough to have no parents ? Mr. McCoy. It would probably be put in school or taken care of by the guardian in some way. In many cases the guardians seciu-e an order of court for permission to pay so much a month to the par- ents of the child for its support, and if it had no parents then with some relative or someone else. The Chairman. Has it ever come under your observation that these children for whom guardians are appointed are cared for and looked after closely, and properly fed and clothed and housed and educated and protected in every way? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; my experience is that the children would con- tinue to live with their parents after they had a guardian, and be kept just about the same as they were before he was appointed. The Chairman. In these cases you speak of, it was where the par- ents or one of them were living? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It was not in cases where the parents were incom- petent or dead ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; it was where the parents were living. The Chairman. In the other instance, where the parents are dead, or for any reason are unable to care for the child properly, is it the duty of the guardian, and if it is his duty, does he carry it out, to see that the child is properly cared for and educated in accordance with the letter and spirit of his trust — to see that it is properly housed, fed, clothed, -and educated ? Mr. McCoy. I will say this: As a rule, I don't think the guard- ians appointed pay much attention to the Indian children. In some instances I know of they did, but in a great many of them they don't. The Chairman. Well, that is what I wanted to get at. They simply look after the business part or management of their estate ? Mr. McCoy. They simply look after the estate. The Chairman. I think that is all. 1060 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Senator Beandegee. Did I understand you to say that the appH- cations of the guardians for appointment are for the custody of the person as well as the property? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Beandegee. What is it for? Mr. McCoy. For the property. It merely amounts to a cura- torship. Senator Beandegee. Here is Mr. Johnson who comes before the committee and files a written statement which is going to be printed in the record of the proceedings of the committee and exhibited to Congress and to the country, for it will be printed and dis- tributed, and he says in that statement, "the great bane of this country is and will continue to be, unless some method is devised to rid us of it, what is commonly known as the grafter. This remorseless and unconscionable creature is sucking the lifeblood of the Indian like a vampire, crippling the progress of the State and demoralizing the integrity of contracts. He swoops down upon the estates of little children, by having his friend appointed guardian or curator, and this friend at once leases the land to him for a nominal sum, and he in turn sits in his city office and demands tribute from the actual tiller of the soil.' ' What can you say to that ? Mr. McCoy. Is that WiUiam B. Johnson? Mr. Beandegee. I do not remember his initials, but he spoke here this afternoon. He was United States district attorney here at one time. Mr. McCoy. It is absolutely impossible for a grafter or for any person else to get, or to do any harm to, the estate of a minor, as I . see it. In the first place Senator Long. What do you mean by a "grafter?" You have used that term several times this afternoon, and I would like to have your definition of it. Mr. McCoy. A man who tries to secure lands and to secure money by promoting, you may say, in a certain way. Senator Beandegee. That is your definition of "grafter?" Mr. McCoy. Well, yes, or a man who tries to get hold of land and rents that land for a term of years — leases it in the first instance and rents it to farmers. The grafter is the man that went out in the first place and bought improved farms with houses, barns, and fences — first he located these cultivated lands and then located Indians and Indian minors on them, and made a lease on them for a term of years direct. That is what we think is a grafter down here. Mr. W. B. Johnson. May I ask a question? The Chaieman. Certainly. Mr. Johnson. I will ask Mr. McCoy if it is not true that the general definition of a grafter here is, not the man who will swoop down on the allotment of the little children in this way, but one who will have some one — a real estate dealer or some one else — appointed guardian for the estate of that little child, and then will make a deal with the guardian wherebj^ he will get control of the land for a term of years, and run the thing so that the child won't get any- thing out of it, or if he does get anything it is so small that it does not amount to anything; they will slip in and make a different lease FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1061 Mr. McCoy. I think Mr. Johnson is overdrawing it. I think you are overdrawing it a great deal because, in the first place, these minors can not ever secure improved land. Mr. Johnson. Well, now, let me ask you this question: In your opinion, a gentleman who makes it his business to go around and obtain the waivers on the part of Indian parents of the right to be guardians of their own children, and who will get himself appointed in their place, is he doing that in order to make money for hunself , or is he doing it because he has a special paternal or fraternal interest, or any other laudable and worthy interest, in the welfare of the little Indian child ? Mr. McCoy. I think I have answered that question very fuUy. I said that the only motive he had was his own self-interest, but while he is doing itto benefit himself he is at the same time actually bene- fiting the Indian minor. Mr. Johnson. Did the guardian do this because it occurred to him to doit, or is he doing it because some real estate grafter put him up to doing it ? Mr. McCoy. Do you mean the guardian? Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Mr. McCoy. I have no doubt but that the guardian in a great many instances has been appointed at the suggestion of the grafter, or rather through the efforts of the grafter. Mr. Johnson. You mean by that that he is appointed as the result of forces which the grafter puts in operation ? Mr. McCoy. I have no doubt that that is true. Mr. Johnson. Well, do you know it ? Mr. McCoy. I don't know it, but I have every reason to tnink so. Mr. Johnson. Would you appoint the guardian when you thought so? .Did you ever do that? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; in a great many instances. The Chairman. It was testified to by a witness in McAlester, too late last night for us to take any steps to follow it up or to attempt to have it explained, that he knew of two men who traveled around the country with a notary public ; that they went to a great many Indians out in remote parts of the country, getting the consent or request of the Indian parents of children to sign waivers of their legal right to be guardian of the estates of their children, and asking for the appointment of one of these men to be guardian for all their chil- dren, and that these -men were appointed guardians of great numbers of these children. The gentleman who told us that said he knew it of his own knowledge. I would like to ask you if that method of procedure in these matters is in vogue in this country ? Mr. McCoy. I do not think it is in any great vogue. Now, I want you to understand me. I am not defending all that these men do. I think a great many things they do are indefensible. I have no doubt but that great wrongs have been perpetrated many times in these matters. The Chairman. What is the greatest number of Indian children for whom yon ever knew one man to apply to be appointed guard- ian at one time? Mr. McCoy. I do not remember of any instance now where a guard- ian was appointed for more than five or six, or, perhaps, it might 1062 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. have been as many as ten at one time. I do not remember of any more than that in our court. The Chaikman. Is the guardian required to make an annual report ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When he makes that annual report is there any effort made by the court, or by you or the other clerks, to ascertain whether the amounts that he returns as the proceeds of the leasing of the estates of his wards are the amounts he received, and whether or not they are the fair and reasonable amounts that should have been reahzed as the proceeds of these estates, or any one of them? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Every detail of the matter is gone into very carefully and thoroughly. The Chairman. Is any attempt made to ascertain what the ten- ant actually pays to the real estate man for the land ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. Then no attempt is made to ascertain what any of the lands do actually yield to the real estate man who rents them or leases them — the grafter, in other words ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; but an attempt is made to ascertain what is paid under the lease contract. The Chaieman. An attempt is made to ascertain what is paid on the lease direct from the guardian to the grafter? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But no attempt is made to ascertain what is paid by the tenant who actually works the land to the grafter who leases it from the guardian? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. What is the ordinary and usual amount that is returned by the guardian as the average amount that is paid in rentals on the average Chickasaw holding? Mr. McCoy. It varies. It is owing to circumstances. The Chairman. There must be some kind of an average, and if you know what it is, will you kindly state it ? Mr. McCoy. I think the average amount is about $75 a year. The Chairman. For how many acres ? Mr. McCoy. For the full allotment. The Chairman. How many acres would that be ? Mr. McCoy. I do not know. It may be only 160 acres and it may be 320 acres. The Chairman. All of the same kind of land ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; it is owing to the kind of land. The Chairman. It depends on the kind of land and the appraised value of it for allotment purposes ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; it is all owing to the class of land it is, and its appraised value. The Chairman. What ought that land, per year, be worth to the farmer? Mr. McCoy. I do not know. It is owing entirely to the class or character of the land, and the amount of it that is in cultivation. The Chairman. Does the court or the clerk or the party who approves of the guardian's account, know what that land ought to brmg annually in rental ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1063 Mr. McCoy. That matter was determined when the lease was approved. After the lease is approved the guardian is only respon- sihle for the amount of money he receives under that lease, and that that is all he reports. The Chairman. What he receives from whom? Mr. McCoy. The amount of money received for rental of that land from the farmer. The Chairman. That is what the guardian reports ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But he receives it from the farmer through the grafter, does he not? Mr. McCoy. Certainly; yes, sir. The Chairman. What I am trying to get at, if you will see, is whether, under the administration of this guardian, the Indian ward actually receives the actual rental value of the estate, or whether it is intercepted in some way by a third party by means of an improper understanding between this third party and the guardian? Mr. McCoy. I think I understand, and to make myself plain to you, I will say that when that land was allotted the land and improve- ments were secured to that Indian, whether a minor or adult, through the grafter. It was through the efforts of the grafter that the Indian secured the land, and after the guardian was appointed a lease for five years was secured on that minor's land, which lease provided that so much was to be paid to the guardian each year for the use of that land. That lease would be made, in the case of a minor, by the representative of the minor, the guardian, and in the case of an adult Indian it would be made direct. In the caSe of the lease of the minor's land, the agreement in the lease specified that so much was to be paid to the guardian each year for the use of that land, and in addition to that there was a provision in the lease contract that the value of the improvements at the time the minor was allotted the land (that is, the buildings, fences, etc., everything on the allot- ment) should accrue to the benefit of the minor at the end of the five years. The Chairman. Do I understand you to say that the guardian of this minor Indian is appointed before he gets his allotment ? Mr. McCoy. I do not know that I said that, but that is the fact. The Chairman. It is a fact then that the guardian is appointed before the land is allotted to the minor ? Mr. McCoy. Certainly he is. The allotment could not be made before that. The Chairman. Of what estate is he appointed guardian before the allotment is made? How could he be appointed guardian of an allotment, and give bond for it, when he was not in a position to deter- mine the value of the allotment? Mr. McCoy. It is thought best to make the appointment before the allotment is made, and all the arrangements are made at the time of taking the allotment. The grafter has put the Indian on to the allotment; he has told him about it, and arranged for him to take it, and the arrangement is all made that he is to have a lease of it for five years, to recompense him for the money he is out in seeing that the allotment is made to the Indian. I explained that before. The lease is all executed beforehand. This is done because they would not be permitted to file upon land of their own selection. The 1064 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. grafter had to arrange that with the raan that owned the improve- ments, for no one would be permitted to file on the land if it was improved land until that was arranged. If a block of land was scheduled to John Brown or John Smith because John Brown and John Smith, or either of them, were in possession of that land and owned the improvements, the land was withheld for a certain length of time, because they had a right to take their allotments there, and the grafter had to arrange it with them. The Chaieman. That is very instructive but it does not answer my question. To come back to my question, is there any effectual means taken to ascertain that the helpless little Indian ward is re- ceiving the full value for the use of his land ? , Mr. McCoy. By the court? The Chairman. Yes, or by you or by anybody else connected in any way with the appointment of the guardian ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. So then if the guardian really wants to betray his trust to the grafter (unless he betrays the grafter, which is impos- sible, or the grafter betrays him, which is improbable) there is not much chance of finding it out, is there, so far as the little Indian is concerned ? Mr. McCoy. The minor is protected by the bond. The Chairman. I know that; he is supposed to be. Mr. McCoy. He is; the bonds are good. The Chairman. I am not disputing that, but the minor does not know anything about it, does he ? And if he did, is incapable, in law, of doing anything- direct himself. He is there relying on his guardian to protect his interests? Mr. McCoy. As I said before, the report of the guardian recites his expenditures and is scanned very closely, and gone into item by item. The Chairman. The face of the papers is looked into, and it is seen that the columns of figures add up correctly and that they balance each other, but what I want to find out is whether any care is taken to see that the actual figures on the paper represent the actual facts ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; the guardian is closely questioned. The Chairman. Is the question ever asked him, what the tenant pays for this ward's property; what the man actually on the place, and working it, actually pays for it in the way of rent ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. That question is not asked? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. The Chairman. Why not ? Mr. McCoy. That is not within the proviuce of the court. The Chairman. Do you not think that that would be a material question ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; not after the contract is made. The Chairman. Not after the contract is made between the guar- dian and the grafter? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; not after that contract is made, it is nobody's business what the tenant pays. The Chairman. That is the way you view it ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman, You think it is a good system, do you ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1065 Mr. McCoy. I do not say so. The Chairman. Do you think it is a bad system? Mr. McCoy. It is the best that we can have under the conditions that exist. Senator Long. What do you mean by "conditions?" Mr. McCoy. By "conditions" I mean that the Indians had no money to even pay their way to the land office to file. They had no money to buy improved farms or the improvements upon farms, or even to look around to find a good place to locate. An Indian could not even pay his way from over here in the Choctaw Nation to come here to inspect land. The Indians hadn't any money to do anything and didn't know where the good land was; they hadn't anything and didn't know anything. Now, that was the condition, and before an Indian could file on a piece of land he had to go and take a look at it himself, for he had to swear that he had seen it and been actually on it. He had to make that showing before he was permitted to file. Senator Brandegee. Of course it is perfectly evident that the Indian ward gets more of his land under this system than he would if it was idle and not rented at all ? Mr. McCoy. There is no question about it. Senator Brandegee. Do you not think that when he gets the land he ought to get the full value of it ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. Why not? Mr. McCoy. I think that the man who spent his money in behalf of the minor and put it in his power to select good land should get some- thing for his trouble. It has benefited the Indian minor, no one will deny that, and why should not the man who has done all this for him get something for his trouble and expense ? Senator Brandegee. Assuming that he ought to have some com- •pensation, do you think he ought to have the privilege of renting the land himself and then exploiting it for all he could get out of it? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; I do. It is only for a period of five years, and that time soon elapses. Senator Brandegee. Are not these leases renewed for period after period of five years ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; the law is strictly against it. Senator Brandegee. Did you ever know of a suit being brought on the bond in the trust company or bond company that a guardian gave for the faithful performance of his duty? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. That is all. Senator Teller. Mr. McCoy, what was it you called "grafters," these men that go out and located minors on these lands ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Did you say that they go in the first place and buy the improvements on a piece of land ? Is that a fact ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. I suppose there were large amounts of these lands that are being cultivated that are to be allotted ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. The man that lives on the place or who owns the improvements, does he have any preference in the allotting? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. 1066 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBBS. Senator Teller. Well, after he allots, is there usually something left besides what he gets? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; in many instances there is. Senator Teller. Sometimes these farms that the improvements were on were large ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir ; sometimes one man would own a large farm containing thousands of acres with improvements on a lot of it — far more sometimes than he and all his family could allot or take. Of course all he could take would be the allotrhents of the size, allowed in that location, for himself, his wife, and children. All the rest of the land become public land really, but still at the same time no other person would be allowed to file on it without the consent of the original owner of the land, unless they arrived at some agreement with him about it. That had to be done before the Commission would allow anyone to file on it. Senator Teller. They would have to get the improvements? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. He has to make some arrangement with that man who owns the improvements by which he buys them? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. In that way does he get any preference on that land? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; in that way he gets a right to locate it or have it located. He gets a letter to the Commission or land ofiice stating the fact that he had bought these improvements, or he would get a bill of sale for them or for certain parts of the land. The Chairman. That would be virtually a relinquishment ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; you might call it that. Senator Teller. Then what occurs ? Mr. McCoy. Then the Indian would be permitted to file. Senator Teller. Does he ever take the minor or child out there' and show him the land ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. Does he ever take anyone out there with him? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Who does he take to show the land ? Mr. McCoy. Usually the father of the child. He is the one that usually goes and looks at the land for the child. Senator Teller. But some person has to go and look at it ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; usually the father of the child or the guar- dian would go and look at it — the one that does the filing, and either the father or the guardian can do that. Senator Teller. The person that files for the minor has to look at it before he can file on it ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Who pays the expense of going and looking at that land? The father? Mr. McCoy. He would, if he had the money. Senator Brandegee. But if he did not have it, who would? The grafter ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. He finds children — the grafter does — to take up whatever land he holds the relinquishment or ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1067 Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; that is the idea. Senator Long. And before he does that he sees that there is a guardian appointed — either the parent or some one else ? Mr. McCoy. Well, not always. He can have that done either before or afterwards. What the grafter is after is a lease on the land , after it is allotted, and he can't get that lease without a guardian, for a leagie executed without a properly appointed guardian approved by the court would be void. Senator Long. After he has got the land properly allotted, then he gets the guardian; or he may get the guardian before, on the theory that the guardian has a legal right to enter the land ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; he can do it that way, but it is not necessary to have the guardian to file on the land. The guardian would be permitted to file on the land, but the guardian before he could do so must be approved by the court and furnish bond. Senator Teller. I think there is no question but that a guardian can be appointed under these conditions, because the child has a right which the guardian alone can exercise for him or the parent. Now, then, it is in consideration of what the man called the "grafter" has done that he gets this lease ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; it is in consideration of getting this allot- ment for this minor. In other words, for securiug the allotment for the minor he gets the lease for five years. Senator Teller. Then all the interest the grafter has in the land is to get that lease ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. You say that you think the average allotment of one of these minors averages about seventy-five dollars a year income ? Mr. McCoy. I think so. Senator Teller. Do you think that is considered a fair income ? Mr. McCoy. Do I think that seventy-five dollars is considered a fair income? Senator Teller. Yes. Is it $75 a year, or is it the $75 for the five years ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; it is $75 a year for five years. But that is not all there is to it. It is not always that way. In many instances, in addition to the $75, the lease also provides that certain improve- ments shall be erected on the land. It frequently provides that a house or whatever is necessary in the way of buildings shall be erected, or that fences shall be built, and other improvements — what- ever may be specified in the particular lease. Senator Teller. All these enter into the consideration in the contract? Mr. McCoy. Certainly; they are a part of the consideration. It may be that the contract will require that there is so much more land to be placed in cultivation. The land has to be cleared of the timber in some instances, and where it is this prairie land it only has to be broken up to become productive; but where the land has tim- ber on it of course the timber has to be cleared ofl' it. Now, the lessee of the land also has to give a bond to the guardian. Senator Teller. That is the one you call a grafter; he gets a lease and then he has to give a bond ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. 1068 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Teller. He has to give a bond to the guardian that he will comply strictly with the terms of the lease he gets ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. He has to give a bond that he will pay the cash rental, and that he will not permit waste on the leased premises. Senator Teller. All that enters into the lease ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The leases are very carefully prepared. Senator Teller. There is a printed form for making this lease on, is there not ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Have you got one ? Mr. McCoy. I think so, but I haven't it with me. Senator Teller. Can't you get one and bring it to us to-morrow morning ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; I can furnish a blank copy to the committee. Senator Teller. When this is all done, when all these things are complied with, and the grafter has his lease, and has furnished his bond, and everything is approved, then the grafter is at liberty to find some one who will pay him a biggc" rental for the land than he is paying for it ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. Now, have you any opportunity to see what these leases are? Mr. McCoy. I do not understand that. Senator Teller. When the grafter has got his arrangements made with the guardian, the guardian is dismissed, for that is all the grafter has to do with him, except to pay the lease rental at stated times ; when all this is done, when the grafter has his lease perfected, then the grafter has to look around and find some one to whom to lease the land, at a rental that will make it profitable to him? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. So the grafter looks around and finds some one who wants a farm? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir He has to hunt up his sublessee. Senator Teller. Is there any way that you can find out what the grafter is leasing it for to his lessee — whether for an unusually large sum, or what? Mr. McCoy. He leases it for one year only. It sometimes is for a crop rent. Senator Teller. Do you know what this is — wtat it amounts to in a year? Mr. McCoy. Of course we can't tell what that is. Senator Teller. Sometimes instead of getting cash rent he gets a share of the crops ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. What is the share he gets ? Mr. McCoy. One-third of the corn and grain and one-fourth of the cotton is the customary contract in this country. Senator Teller. When the guardian makes his report he reports the income from the estate of ms ward at $75 ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And against that he charges up whatever amount he has expended for the infant? FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 1069 Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. He furnishes the items of the account, verified. Senator Teller. I suppose you have no machinery so you can go out and find exactly what has been done on that farm ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; we have not. Senator Teller. You are not suppHed with any agency of that kind? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. So you don't know whether he is putting the improvements on that tract or not as the contract requires? Mr. McCoYi No, sir. Senator Teller. It is no part of your duty to do that ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. That you expect the guardian to look after ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. It is his duty as guardian to see to it that the grafter complies with the contract of lease ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. What compensation does the guardian get for his services ? Mr. McCoy. There is no stated amount. Senator Teller. What is it, usually ? Mr. McCoy. It is an amount that is fixed by the court, taking into consideration what he has done and the trouble he has been to. It is what the court considers to be reasonable compensation under the circumstances, in each particular case, for looking after the minor's allotment. Senator Teller. But if the child lives at home the guardian does not have very much trouble or expense excepting for the money he has paid out to his parents for the keep of the minor at his home? Mr. McCoy. He might have to visit the allotment to see about it, and he might have to visit it to see about the improvements and see that the buildings were being erected properly as required by the terms of the lease. Senator Teller. And for all these things he is allowed a reason- able compensation? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; by the court. He comes before the court and makes his showing as to what he has done, and the court allows him what in its judgment is reasonable compensation. Senator Long. Wnere the guardian has, say, one hundred estates in his charge in this manner, what would his usual compensation amoxmt to annually? Mr. McCoy. I can't make any estimate. Senator Long. Haven't you any idea? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. I suppose no two would be exactly alike? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Long. I did not know but that you could state what the total compensation for all of them was, so as to show whether or not this business was a profitable one for the guardians ? _ Mr. McCoy. "There have been no estates closed up so that I could give you an idea. Senator Teller. Have any of these estates fallen in — that is, hag the five years for which they were leased ended yet? 1070 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Mr. McCoy. No, sir; the allotments were made first in April and May, 1903, and it is not time yet. Senator Beandegee. Are these moneys that are collected from the estates of these minors placed by the guardian in a bank to the credit of the ward or for the account of a ward ? Mr. McCoy. Sometimes. Senator Brandegee. Are they paid out for the use of the ward at different times during the year? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Do they have to get a court order when they do that? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Is it the usual course for them to get one court order which will comprehend all the usual and necessary expenses for the child for one year coming, or do they get a separate order each item of expense they want to pay out ? Mr. McCoy. They get one order that embraces all the expenses of the child for one year. Senator Brandegee. That order includes all the expenses of the child for that year ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; as near as they can estimate it. Senator Teller. Like payments made for clothing? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; the guardian will get an order authorizing him to pay out, say, $4 a month for the support and maintenance of the child by its parents. Senator Teller. And he pays that money to its parents? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. And they buy its clothing, or provide it ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Teller. That order he does not get every month ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; perhaps not. In many instances they don't do that. In many instances they get an order for the payment of a larger amount. Senator Brandegee. What is the expense for obtaining that order? Mr. McCoy. Nothing. It would be simply for entering the order. Senator Brandegee. Well, what would be the expense for doing that? ^ Mr. McCoy. Perhaps the expense for entering the order on the record would be 50 cents. Senator Brandegee. Would the guardian have to go to the expense of getting an attorney and bring him into court to get the order at an expense of $3, $4, or $5 each time? Is that your experi- ence down here? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. The guardian usually has an attorney, does he not, to represent him? Mr. McCoy. Sometimes he has; quite often not. Senator Teller. Who draws the orders when the guardian has not an attorney? Mr. McCoy. The clerk. Senator Teller. When the guardian has not an attorney the clerk draws the orders ? Mr. McCoy. Yes. We draw them lots of times. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1071 Senator Teller. Then it is for filing the order that the expense is incurred ? Mr. McCoy. It is for recording the order. In the first place we require a deposit of $10 to cover the clerk's fees. That is, for all the fees incident to the appointment of a guardian. Senator Teller. Who puts that up ? Mr. McCoy. The guardian from the estate of the minor. Senator Teller. Suppose the minor has not any money nor has his estate. Who puts that up, then? The guardian? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. What are the expenses of the appointment of a guardian in the case of a minor ? Mr. McCoy. The expenses will be the $10 deposited for clerks' costs and about $10 to the surety company for the bond, if the bond is executed by a surety company. That, I think, would about cover the entire expenses. Senator Brandegee. That would be about one-fourth of the annual rental value of the wards' estate for the first year? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; but there is only one deposit required, and that will last for years. Senator Brandegee. That is the initial $10 deposit? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How about the bond ? Mr. McCoy. That is renewable every year. The Chairman. And the renewal of that requires the payment of this $10 fee or premium every year ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir; I think so. The Chairman. What is the custom about attorneys' fees ? Mr. McCoy. A reasonable attorney's fee is charged to the estate, I suppose; but there have not been very many attorneys' fees allowed in such instances. Where there has been a lot of property handled, or something like that, there has been an attorney's fee allowed; but in the matter of the appointment of a guardian for a minor, I don't recollect of a single instance in this court where any attorney's fee has been allowed. If the guardian has paid any attorneys' fees, we would not know it until the report came m. Then if there is such an item and it is considered too much or that it should not be there, it is reported by the probate clerk, and I in turn report it to the court, stating in our opinion it is too much or should not be allowed, and sometimes it is not allowed, and sometimes it is cut down. Senator Brandegee. Do you know of any instances where the employee of any real estate man or any speculator, or "grafter," as you call them, or firm of such, have been employed as guardian ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are there many of such instances ? Mr. McCoy. I only know of one or two such. The Chairman. Then it is not the practice to do that? Mr. McCoy. No, sir; it is not the rule? The Chairman. It has not grown into a practice ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. The judge of the court down here does not give any attention, to these cases ? Mr. McCoy. No, sir. Senator Teller. Why not ? 1072 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. McCoy. It is impossible. Senator Teller. Why is it impossible ? Mr. McCoy. There is so much other work to do that it is impossible for him to do it, and when he takes action on them he has to depend on the clerks for his information. Senator Teller. There is a special officer appointed for that pur- pose, is there not ? Mr. McCoy. There is a probate clerk appointed for it, who gives his whole time to probate work. Senator Teller. Who is he appointed by? Mr. McCoy. He is appointed by the clerk as probate clerk. It takes all his time in the probate business. The probate clerk is deputy commissioner, as we call him. He is here now, and he has had the handling of all that business that goes through the court. The Chairman. Can you tell how many of these estates there are at present on your docket? Mr. McCoy. Guardianship cases? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. McCoy. I think we have about 800 of them here at Ardmore. The Chairman. And how many in the entire district ? Mr. McCoy. There would probably be 2,500 of them in the entire southern district. Senator Long. There are about 800 in this recording district ? Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir. Senator Long. I would like to ask Mr. Gates a few questions. STATEMENT OF MB. GEORGE F. GATES. Senator Long. Mr. Gates, are you the probate officer here ? Mr. Gates. I am a deputy clerk in charge of the probate business. Senator Long. What do you say to that statement of Mr. McCoy's as to the amount of business done here at Ardmore ? Mr. Gates. In reply to that I will state that our probate business in roxmd numbers amounts to 1,054 cases here a Ardmore, but they are not all live, pending cases. Some of these cases have been disposed of. Senator Long. How many live cases are there now ? Mr. Gates. I presume there are of live cases now standing on the docket something approximating what Mr. McCoy has stated — that is, about 800 cases. I would not be positive, but it is in that neighborhood. Senator Long. In other places in the district, how many are there ? Mr. Gates. In the southern district? Senator Long. Yes, sir. Mr. Gates. I only have charge of the probate business in those courts over which Judge Townsend presides, which is at Ardmore, Tishimingo, and Marietta. Senator Long. Give us those. Mr. Gates. At these three places there are approximately 1,200 cases pending and on the docket at this time. As to the number of cases on file and pending at the other places in the southern dis- trict where coiirt is held, I have no knowledge excepting such as is gained by conferring with or talking with the other clerks who have charge of the probate business. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1073 Senator Long. We want to find the work of one judge. Mr. Gates. My work has been confined exclusively to these three places where Judge Townsend presides. Senator Long. And so, taking Ardmore and these other two places that you have mentioned, the number of cases is about 1,200? Mr. Gates. Yes, sir, pending cases. Senator Long. That is, live cases ? Mr. Gates. Yes, sir. For instance, take Tishimingo, which is the next largest place to Ardmore, the cases number 490 odd at present, and there is probably upward of 400 of those that are live cases, and at Marietta, the other place for holding court, there are very few probate cases upon that docket. I believe the number there is about 35. Senator Long. That is all you have at Marietta, 35 ? Mr. Gates. Yes, sir, about 35; that is all the probate cases we have at Marietta; but the number of probate cases at Tishimingo and Ardmore, they number about 1,200 in the aggregate. I won't state the exact number, but it is right around 1,200 somewhere. The Chaieman. In about how many of these cases are the parents of the child or children for whom a guardian has been appointed living ? Mr. Gates. That would be very difficult to state, because I never had occasion to figure it up. I would not undertake to state exactly the percentage, but I would say in not over half of them. I do not think that in over half of them do the parents become their legal guardians. I would not say, I am just guessing at it, and I may be away oflF. At 6 o'clock p. m. the committee took a recess till 8 p. m., when it reassembled. EVENING SESSION. The Chaieman. Gentlemen, we understood this afternoon, after the first presentation, that the Farmers' Union had some matters that they would be glad to call to the attention of the committee. We shall be glad to listen to them if they are prepared to present them at this time. STATEMENT OF MB. J. F. CARTER. Mr. Caetee. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I will not consume much of your time. We have a paper here that was gotten up by the Farmers' Union at its convention that was in session here on the 16th of this month, and on learning that you gentlemen were to be here we thought it would be proper and fitting that it be pre- sented to you here instead of being forwarded to Washington. It is very short, so we will read it first and then if there are any questions you desire to ask we will be glad to answer them. The Chairman. We shall be glad to hear it, Mr. Carter. Mr. Caetee. I will read it. It is as follows: To the Honorable Senate Committee : We, the Fanners' Educational and Co-Operative Union of America, District No. 21, of Indiahoma Union, in convention assembled at Ardmore, Chickasaw Nation, In- dian Territory, on this 16th day of November, 1906, respectfully request and recom- mend to the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States the rem9val of all restrictions on lands allotted by members of the Chickasaw and Choctaw tribes of Indians, exclusive of their homesteads. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 69 1074 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Second. That tlie homesteads of all members of the Chickasaw and Choctaw tribes upon which the restrictions remain be leased for a period of five years to actual bona fide settlers; however, not more than 160 acres of agricultural land to any one person. Third. We further recommend that the sale of the lands of the Indians on whom restrictions have been removed be sold to actual "bona fide" settlers of the Indian Territory as provided by the homestead laws of the United States, and that provision be strictly complied with. Not more than 160-acres to any one person. Fourth. We respectfully ask this for the following reasons: We find upon examination of the records that the greater portion of the land from which restrictions have been removed have been purchased by land grabbers who have formed themselves into corporations, combines, and partnerships for the pur- pose of buying large bodies of land, to the great detriment of the honest toiling farm- ers who seek a home in this country. We further believe that same is a detriment to the industrial and commercial in- terests of this country. ^ We respectfully request that unless land can be sold or leased as herein provided with some restrictions to the sale and leasing of same, that the restrictions remain as they now are. We think that the interest of the individual citizen and the public would be better promoted by the title remaining in the Indian than in the hands of the grafter. Respectfully submitted. J. R. GoTCHER, President. J. F. Taylor, Secretary. The Chairman. Of whom does this farmers' union consist ? Mr. Carter. Of the actual farmers and men who actually till the soil. The Chairman. Then it takes an actual farmer to be a member? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir, the actual farmer; the actual tiller of the soil is the only person who is eligible for membership in it. The Chairman. Is this a local organization or a local branch of some general organization? Mr. Carter. This is a local branch of a general organization. The Chairman. What is the membership of the organization? Mr. Carter. We have about 175,000 members here in the Indian Territory and Oklahoma. We have a national organization. It is organized largely in the Southern States and in Kansas, and is Spread- ing up into Nebraska, and so on. It is spreading very fast now. Senator Long. It is not the Grange ? Mr. Carter. No, sir. Senator Long. In what way does it differ from the Grange ? Mr. Carter. In no material way. Senator Long. It is practically the same thing as the Grange, then? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; it is practically organized along the same lines, with the same aims and objects as the Grange. Senator Long. In what way does it differ from the Farmers' Alliance ? Mr. Carter. I do not know anything much about the Grange, for it was really before my time, and when I say it is organized along the lines that the Grange is or was, I am giving my opinion based on what I have heard of the Grange; but I suppose the Farmers' Alliance was about the same as the Grange, and this is about on the same lines as the Alliance, with the exception that we do not dabble in politics as the Farmers' Alliance did. Senator Long. That is a very important difference. Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; quite important, we think. The Chairman. Yes; in Kansas it makes quite a difference. Mr. Carter. We do not bother with politics at all. We are not a political party at all. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. ' 1075 Senator Long. What are the objects and purposes of the union? Mr. Carter. Our ma,in purpose is to provide a sufficient market and get a reasonable price tor all our products that are raised on the farm. Senator Long. In this Indian Territory here there are subjects which affect the farmers directly and locally, and they have taken up those matters because these conditions affect them directly? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. We sent some representatives to Wash- ington a year ago to try and get some action taken on this question. There was Mr. La Fleur — he is a Choctaw Indian — and there was J. M. Caves The Chairman. Does this local organization represent pretty generally the farmers of this locality ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; it was our local organization that prepared this petition — ^from the twenty-first recordmg district, surrounding Ardmore. Senator Long. Most of these farmers around here are living on rented or leased land ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; nearly all of them are renting from the grafters. Senator Long. Very few own their own farms ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; very few, indeed. Senator Long. Are there some Indians in the organization ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; I think there are some m the house that belong to it. Senator Long. Do any of the freedmen belong to it ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; but they have a separate organization of their own. Senator Long. What do they call it ? Mr. Carter. They call it the Colored Farmers' Union. The Chairman. It has the same objects and purposes? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The only difference or distinction between them is that they have separate organizations ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you people rent any land from the owners directly, or do you all rent from the grafters ? Mr. Carter. Well, sir, we nearly all rent directly from the grafters. We don't very often get an opportunity to rent it from the real owner. A man don't very often get a chance to rent land that way in this country. The Chairman. The grafter gets in ahead of you and secures the land? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; they are the people that know the ropes and get on the ground first and secure the land from the owners, and we have to rent from them or not at all. I came to this country twelve years ago with the expectation of getting a home here, and there are a great many of us that came here with the same expecta- tion; but if you will look around you will find practically all of us in the same condition — none of us with a home yet. It does not matter how hard a man works or how industrious or economical he is, if he tries to get a home he can not do it without paying an ex- orbitant price to some grafter or speculator for land. These condi- tions have so discouraged the farmers here that they are not only 1076 • FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. leaving by the hundreds, but by the thousands, going to New Mexico and to Texas and to other countries, too, where they hope to pro- cure an interest in the soil at a price that they can afford to pay. The Chairman. If the conditions were such that you could pro- cure an interest in the soil by way of ownership, there is no climatic or agricultural reason or drawback that would interfere with your doing so, is there ? Mr. Carter. No, sir; there is not. We people are staying here because we believe it is one of the garden spots of the world, and we are living on in the hope that some time soon it will be within our power to get homes here that will be our own. We are getting very tired of paying these exorbitant rents to these grafters. There is no question in my mind that it would be the garden spot of the world and the ideal place to live if the grafter was out of the way. The Chairman. If the conditions were such that the Indians could sell their allotted surplus lands, would that relieve the condi- tions ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You do not think that the grafter could come in and cut under the farmers and get in his deadly work ? Mr. Carter. He could not if there were proper restrictions thrown around the sale. The Chairman. Then, if I understand you, you want the grafter restricted rather than the Indian? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; we want the Indian unrestricted and the grafter restricted. The Chairman. According to your statement, if these restrictions on the sale of the Indian's land were removed and the land was put on the market, have you any reason to believe that the grafter, as you call him, or the speculator, would not be there upon the ground to purchase the' land before you or any other farmer had a chance to doit? Mr. Carter. We know that he would be unless Congress threw such restrictions around the sale of this land that it would be impossible for him to do it. If the course is followed that we point out in our memorial, which I have read to you, we believe that that would fix him. He certainly would do that very thing unless Congress passed the law in such shape that he would be so hampered and restricted by conditions that it would not be profitable for him to do it. The Chairman._ You can not restrict him, because as a citizen, he has the constitutional right to come in and purchase the land the same as any other citizen. Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; but there is a way to fix him The Chairman. Your idea is that there should be some restriction placed on the Indian in regard to whom he shall sell his land to? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Your idea is that he should only sell to the actual settler? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The Indian is also a citizen of the United States, and, as a citizen, has he not the right to sell his land to whom he sees fit and for such a price as he sees fit ? Mr. Carter, Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1077 The Chairman. He has a patent to his land, granted to him condi- tionally. We would like to have your idea as to whether or not it is a feasible proposition to place a restriction on the right of a citizen to sell to whomsoever he pleases, and for such a price as he pleases, land that has been conveyed to him by patent ? That is a question about which I am sure the committee wiU have serious doubts Mr. Carter. We have discussed this matter with the Indians who own the lands, and they have signified their willingness to do it. They want it done that way. Many of them with whom we have talked with on this subject say that they would much rather have the man who has been living alongside them or in the same neighborhood as their neighbor all these years — that they would much rather have him have the land than the grafter or some speculator or land company own it, who will probably bring in and locate on the land somebody who may be undesirable as a neighbor or a citizen. They know us and we know them, and each are satisfied with the other. There is no friction between us, but on the contrary there is a very friendly feeling between the farmers and the Indians, and the Indians are perfectly willing that this should be done. The Chairman. You are getting away from the question, for while the Indian and the farmer might be perfectly willing to do this, let us look at it from the other standpoint. Is it your opinion that if the restrictions are removed, the Indian has enough individual capacity to look out for his own interests in the sale of the land ? Mr. Carter. We think that there are classes of them, numbers of them, who are. The Chairman. Capable of managing their own affairs? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What classes are competent in your opinion to take care of their own affairs ? Or what class would you leave the restric- tions on that are on now? Mr. Carter. We have many Indians in this country who are as capable of looking out for themselves as anybody. They are really a highly cultivated people, and these people are equal to anybody. The Chairman. How would you determine as to their capacity? Of course, you understand that you can not in any act of Congress point out individual Indians as capable of managing their affairs and other Indians as incapable. How would you determine which of these Indians are capable of transacting their busmess intelligently, and which are not ? Mr. Carter. Well, we have the iiitermarried whites, what is called the intermarried Indian and the mixed bloods, they are nearly all capable, just about as capable as an equal number of pure whites anywhere, and nearly all the Chickasaws and Choctaws are of that class. It is a rare thing to find a pure blood among them. The Chairman. Take the intermarried whites, what are your views in regard to them? Mr. Carter. I think there will be no dispute about the fact that they are perfectly competent to attend to their business. The Chairman. And you would have the restrictions removed from them? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. From the homestead and all? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. 1078 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. The Chairman. They can sell everything but their homesteads now? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; we understand that. The Chairman. And you would have the restrictions removed as to their homesteads also ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; make them absolutely free to sell whenever they wished. They don't need protection. They are just as capable of attending to their own business as any people anywhere. The Chairman. Now as to the mixed bloods, what would you say? Mr. Carter. We think the most of the mixed bloods are just as intelligent as the whites are. The Chairman. What would you say in regard to the mixed bloody as a class having their restrictions removed, as to whether that should or should not be done ? Mr. Carter. We think that with few exceptions they should be treated just the same as the intermarried citizens are. I mean by that that with few exceptions the treatment they receive should be the same as the intermarried citizens get. The Chairman. Do you think there should be a general law passed removing all their restrictions, the same as you think the restrictions on the intermarried whites should be removed? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In regard to the full bloods ; what would you say in regard to the removal of the restrictions on them? Mr. Carter. I wouldn't like to say about them. There are not many of them among the Choctaws and the Chickasaws. I haven't had much experience with them, and I wouldn't like to say. I have not seen many of the full bloods, for there are very few of them around here, excepting the Mississippi Choctaws. I can tell you what I think of those. The Chairman. What do you think? Mr. Carter. They are a very illiterate, ignorant class of people; the most illiterate and ignorant I ever saw, and they are not com- petent to attend to their own business. The Chairman. What do you suggest as to the removal of the restrictions on their allotments? Mr. Carter. They are wholly incapable of attending to their busi- ness, and I don't think the restrictions should be removed from them. The Chairman. You think that the restrictions, as far as they are concerned, should remain as they are? Mr. Carter Yes, sir. Senator Long. That is with reference to the Mississippi Choctaws ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Long. They are full bloods ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Why do you think their restrictions should not be removed ? Mr. Carter. Because they don't know anything. They are very ignorant and haven't any idea of business; and if their restrictions were removed it would be only a few days before they would be without anything and be on the county. The Chairman. It was suggested to us by persons who appeared before us at two or three different places where we have been, indeed, I believe at all the places — Vinita, Muskogee, and McAlester — that on FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1079 the rolls of the Dawes Commission there were a good many people enrolled as full bloods who were not full bloods at all, and who had no business on the rolls as such; and that these people were not full bloods by nature, but were full bloods at law snnply because they had been erroneously enrolled as such instead of mixed bloods. It has been suggested m perhaps all the places we have held hearings that it would be a good thing if we had some tribunal — perhaps the United States court, or some other tribunal specially designated for the purpose; which tribunal could inquire into the capacity of the individual Indian at a regular hearing where evidence would be pre- sented pro and con on tnat matter, and if in the judgment of the court the individual was found to be capable to transact his own business, the restrictions might be in whole or in part removed at the discretion of the court. What would you say as to that proposition? Mr. Carter. I think it is a mighty good proposition. The Chairman. You would be in favor ot that proposition? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I forgot to mention that also, wherever it was made, it was coupled with the suggestion that the restrictions should not be removed from the homestead ; but as to the surplus land this tribunal would determine whether the Indian was capable of taking care of it or not. Mr. Carter. That is all right. I think it would be a wise course to pursue in the matter. The Chairman. You would approve of that being done ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Clark. Are you one of the leasers from the grafters ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long a lease did they give you ? Mr. Carter. One year at a time. That is what it has been usu- ally, but I have had land leased for as much as two years at a time. The Chairman. The grafter has a lease for five years ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why don't he give you a lease for the full term of five years ? Mr. Carter. Well, I can best illustrate why they don't do it; seven years ago I moved onto a place and paid $125 for it; that was what I paid for the first year; the next year I paid $150, the third year I paid $175, and the next year $200, and this year I have paid $300, and the grafter who owns it has never been out anything for improve- ments on that place. The Chairman. Have you put the improvements on the place? Mr. Carter. A good many of them. When I went there, there was just a brush fence or a fence with one wire around it, and I had to fix It up to raise anything on it, and the more I improved it the more he raised the rent on me. The Chairman. It is the same as what they call ' 'rack rent m Ireland, where you pay rent for the land and then pay additional rent for the improvements you put on it ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; every year they have taxed me more and more for the improvements I put on it. . Senator Clark. Do you lose at the end of your term the improve- ments you put on it ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. 1080 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. Were there any improvements on it at all when you went on it ? Mr. Carter. There was one little shanty on it. Senator Long. Just a little shanty ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; and that was not fit to live in. Senator Long. Did you build any house on it ? Mr. Carter. I have built two houses on it. Senator Long. What was the size of that farm ? Mr. Carter. There was 160 acres under cultivation — under im- provement I should say. Senator Long. Is it a cotton farm? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; that is, what is improved now— 160 acres^ but there was only 48 acres improved when I took it. This case of mine is no exception to the rule. There are plenty of cases like mine. There are any number almost of men here who can give you the same testimony I am giving you. Do you wonder that tne farmers of this country are getting discouraged? Senator Long. You say a good many of them move away from here and go to New Mexico and elsewhere where they can get better facilities or opportunities for making a home than here ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; they have stayed here hoping against hope, until they have been clean discouraged. There is no mducement for a man to be a man or a farmer in this country. People say we don't know how to farm. We would show the world whether or not we knew how to farm if we had half a chance. To farm right means improved conditions and methods, and if a man tries that here his landlord fines him by increasing his rent, and he won't let him have the land for more than one year. Senator Long. When the farmer under these adverse conditions gives up the farm of the grafter, does he get some one else to take it ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; there is always some one ready to take it. There is always a lot of suckers coming in here from the other States, who listen to and believe some extravagant tale that is told them about what a paradise this is, and what a nice free home they can get here for next to nothing, and they spend everything they have in the world to get down here, and when they get here they can't get away. It is not long before their illusion is dispelled, but here they are and they can't get away, so they have to stay. Senator Long. Do you know what the grafter describes himself as being away from here where he is not known ? Mr. Carter. Well, they call themselves real-estate dealers, or mutual trust companies, or something of that kind. Senator Long. They don't represent themselves to be grafters ? Mr. Carter. No, sir; the sucker don't find that out until he is here a while. Senator Long. Do you know what the grafter pays for this land to the Indian ? Mr. Carter. No, sir. Senator Long. "This is leased land you refer to ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And you don't know what the grafter pays the Indian for the land leased ? Mr. Carter. No, sir. Senator Long. You have never seen the original lease ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1081 Mr. Carter. No, sir; that is supposed to be something we don't know and are not to know anything about. Senator Long. That is private business ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And when you leave a piece of land you have been living on, you expect to lose all your improvements ? Mr. Carter. Certainly I do. 1 am gomg to leave it, improvements and all, for I have already told him to-day I was going to leave it, for I have got another place rented that is fit to live on, but of course I will lose all I have done there. Senator Long. You are still living on the place, though? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Long. How far is that place from town ? Mr. Carter. 8 miles. Senator Long. The principal thing you raise is cotton, I imder- stood you to say? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; cotton and corn. The Chairman. What would you call it — the average, or above the average, agricultural land? Mr. Carter. It is above the average. The Chairman. And you pay $300 a year for it ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir, this year; but the next year he wanted $400 for it. The Chairman. That is nearly $2.50 an acre you paid last year? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; and more than $2.50 an acre for it this com- ing year if I had taken it. The Chairman. There are 160 acres of it? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What would probably be the value of that 160 acres of land in the market if the restrictions were removed from the owner so he could sell it in the open, competitive market ? Mr. Carter. About $10 an acre. That would be albout the rea- sonable value. The Chairman. It is cotton land, I understood you to say? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. About how much cotton will it produce? Mr. Carter. Oh, I don't know — about a bale to four acres, I sup- pose. I have worked it for seven years, and that is about the average. The Chairman. About a bale to four acres ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir; on the average. I have got nearly a bale to the acre off it, but that was an exception. On an average, it is about a bale to four acres. That was about what it was last year and this year. The Chairman. Is that not a rather low production? Mr. Carter. Well, we have not had real good cotton seasons in this country for the last two years. The Chairman. Has it been too dry ? Mr. Carter. No, sir; it has been the other way — too wet. The worms have eaten us up. I will say this — that on or in an average year, a bale of cotton is a good crop. Senator Brandegee. This $400 a year that you have been asked to pay for that land, would you consider that a good, fair rental if you had a long-time lease on it ? 1082 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Cartee. Yes, sir ; if I had time to live on that land and improve it, I would be willing to pay it. The Chairman. Take land that will lease or rent for $2.50 an acre a year, would you not consider $10 an acre a pretty low valuation for land that will rent for that sum ? Mr. Carter. Well, I do not know. The Chairman. Would you not consider that to be a very low valuation ? Two dollars and a half a year is 25 per cent on a valu- ation of $10 an acre. Twenty-five per cent per annum is a pretty good interest on money. Mr. Carter. Well, I was just speaking about what I would be will- ing to pay for it. Senator Clark. Who pays the taxes ? Mr. Carter. There are no taxes on land in this country. Senator Brandegee. How much can you make on 160 acres of land per annum? Mr. Carter. We will make this year about 40 bales of cotton. Senator Brandegee. I did not mean how much you made in product, but when the year is over about how much you would realize in money. Mr. Carter. All told? Senator Brandegee. Yes, in gross. Mr. Carter. That would be about $2,000. Senator Brandegee. How much did you say? Mr. Carter. I haven't said yet. I was merely counting to my- self Senator Brandegee. Oh, very well. Mr. Carter. Forty bales of cotton would be worth $2,000. About $2,400 or $2,500 worth of stuff would be raised on the place. Senator Brandegee. After you had paid the cost of producing it, and had sold it in the market, and got your money, how much profit would you have ? What I want to know is how much a man could make in clean, nice money at the end of the year on a farm of one hundred and sixty acres like that? Mr. Carter. That is a question that is a little difficult to answer. Senator Brandegee. I know that it depends on the intelligence of the man and the closeness with which he farms it, and the care he exercises, but could you not give us some idea as to the amount of money he would have left after paying all expenses for raising the crop? Mr. Carter. I can make a guess at it — he ought to make a profit of something like $1,000. Senator Brandegee. You think the profit would be something approximating a thousand dollars ? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Do you know who is the real oAvner of the farm you have been living on ? Mr. Carter. No, sir; I do not. Senator Brandegee. Do you know who is the real owner of the new farm you are going to lease ? Mr. Carter. I think I do. Senator Brandegee. Are you leasing it from the real owner? Mr. Carter. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. You are not leasing it from a company? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1083 Mr. Caetee. No, sir. Senator Beandegee. Nor from a grafter? Mr. Caetee. No, sir. Senator Beandegee. Is there anything else you desire to tell the comittee ? Mr. Cartee. Speaking about "grafters" and the way they treat the Indians, I will tell you this: An Indian came to my place where I am living now, along in the summer, sometime, and said ' 'this is my land," and I said that I did not know; b,ut he said "this is my land. So-and-so told me it belonged to someone else, but I was brought put here and showed this land and I filed on it and they told me it was mine," and he told me what it was — the description of it — and I pointed down to where some rock ridges were, and said I guessed his land was down there in front of my house, and he got a surveyor to run the lines out for him, and sure enough his home- stead was up there in those rock ridges, and his surplus is over on Mud Creek, which is good land, and the net result is that the grafter has his surplus and the Indian has his homestead up in those rock ridges where the land is not worth fifty cents an acre. That is all, I believe, I care to say. STATEMENT OP MB. WILLIAM F. WARREN. The Chaieman. Where do you reside? Mr. Waeeen. At Ardmore. The Chaieman. And your occupation is what? Mr. Waeeen. My occupation is grain dealer. The Chaieman. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Warren. Mr. Waeeen. Gentlemen, there were some suggestions made by a gentleman here this afternoon that interested me. There are a great many others here who are more capable of telling you things and doing it in a better way than I can, but I have a few ideas of my own and I will try and place them before you in my own way, and I hope that I shall be able to express them so that you will under- stand them. The gentleman spoke in rather disparaging terms of the intellectual capacity of the Indians, though I believe that his reference was intended to apply more to the Mississippi Choctaws than to our local Indians. I do not think that the native Choctaws and Chickasaws here are as incompetent as some would seem to think they are. I have mixed with them and rubbed up against them for quite a while and they do not impress me that way at all. I do not think that the native Chickasaws are really in the hands of the grafter to any extent at all like the Mississippi Choctaws are. I have been here twenty-five years, or so near that length of time that I shall call it twenty-five years, and during all of that time I have had dealings, lots of dealings, with all kinds and conditions of these Indians, and I find that instead of 75 per cent of theni being incompetents that perhaps 25 per cent or less of them are incom- petent. I think that 25 per cent will cover the incompetents among the native Choctaws and Chickasaws; I mean more particularly the Chickasaws, for I have not had much to do with the native Choctaws. Senator Long. Do you mean the full-blood native Chickasaws? 1084 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. .Mr. Waeeen. Yes, sir. Senator Long. There are very few of them in this immediate vicinity ? Mr. Warren. There are not many of them right around here, but I know lots of them, for I am very well acquainted all over the Chick- asaw Nation, and I have met and had business dealings with lots of them. When it comes down to ability to rent land and attend to their own business I do not think that there is to exceed 25 per cent of these native Chickasaws who are incompetent to attend to it as well as the average white man. I have been here a long time and I have done a lot of business here, and I ought to know what I am talking about, and I believe I do, as well as any white man in the nation. It seems to me that the so-called "grafter" is the one that has got the land of the other Indians, the Mississippi Choctaws as they are called, for they brought them in here and allotted them on lots of this land and then got leases on it from them, and that is the reason the farmer is complaining at the general tenor of the way the Indians are doing here. His idea was that the general Indian was responsible for the condition of the farmers here, but the reverse is true. As a rule, they have no trouble with the general landowner here. They are good landlords, the Indians are. I now know of one tenant who has been on an Indian piece of land for twenty-five years and he is renting from a native Chickasaw, too. What I am trying to convey is the fact that the native Chickasaw and the Mis- sissippi Choctaw are two separate and distinct races and must not be confounded as the same. They are as distinct as two men can be. What we call in this country the "Mississippi Choctaw" is in the hands of the grafter — there is no doubt about that. Senator Long. Do you know how many grafters there are here? Mr. Warren. I know a great many so-called grafters. They are real estate men. Senator Long. Are they really what the name implies — grafters? Mr. Warren. Well, they are in that line of business. Senator Long. But they call themselves real estate men? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. Senator Long. We heard a great many complaints against the grafter at South McAlester, Muskogee, and Vinita, and tliese com- plaints came largely from the full-blood Indians, and also from the farmers. I think there were more from the farmers than any other source. Mr. Warren. You hear them everywhere. Senator Long. You have heard them ? Mr. Warren. Yes. Senator Long. The farmers, it is evident, are not satisfied with the situation ? Mr. Warren. No, sir; evidently not. Senator Long. How are the grafters satisfied with the situation? Mr. Warren. Some of them, I take it, are not very well satisfied. Senator Long. Then, I take it from your statement that every- body is dissatisfied with the situation as it is at present ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I do not suppose it would at all do to assume that every man who is engaged in the business of buying and selling FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 1085 real estate here is engaged in the business of "grafting" any more than are the people who are engaged in the same class of business elsewhere ? Mr. Warren. Not by any means. The Chairman. I mean that there are plenty of men here engaged m the buying and selling of real estate who conduct their business in an honorable manner ? Mr. Warren. Lots of them. The Chairman. And yet we would gather from what we hear that the impression that has gone abroad is that all of these gentlemen engaged in the real estate business are engaged in the class of nefa- rious practices which so brilliantly distinguish the grafter in this section? Mr. Warren. That is the general supposition. The _ Chairman. Is the term "grafter" in this section applied indiscriminately to the man who honestly conducts a real estate business, as well as to the man who does not conduct it along the same honorable lines ? Mr. Warren. My idea is that the man who confines his real estate business to town property is called and recognized as a legitimate real estate man, but the man who calls himself a real estate man and deals exclusively or mainly in farm property is termed a "grafter." The Chairman. Then the real estate man who applies himself to dealing in property outside the cities and towns would be earning for hunself the title of ' ' grafter ?" Is that it ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But it is not an impossibility down here to conduct a real estate business honestly ? Mr. Warren. No, sir. The Chairman. And some of them do conduct their business honestly ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And in a manner which the people generally recognize as honest and honorable and legitimate? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What proportion of the entire fraternity — for I suppose there is nothing improper in designating them as brothers — are conducting an open, fair, and square business ? Mr. Warren. Well, I do not know; but some of them are doing a square business. The Chairman. Or are there more actual rascals in the business here than are attached to it in other localities? Mr. Warren. Well, I shoiold not like to say. The trouble down here is that they take unfair methods, to put it mildly; but at the same time the opportunity is here. If it existed in other localities I have no doubt there would be a crop of them there as well as here. I think I am entitled to express myself. I am not a grafter and I do not think I was ever charged with being one, for I never bought a piece of land in this country outside of what I was entitled to buy; but I want to say this, that the opportunity is here. Con- gress made the opportunity and there are always lots of people who are quick to see an opportunity, and I think, just as Mr. McCoy explained here to-day, they found this land for the Indians, and there are a great many of the Indians who never would have 1086 I'lVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. found it; there is where the opportiuiity came in to make a piece of money out of it. He found the good land — the so-called grafter did — and he could not file on it himself, so he had to cast around and find an Indian who could. He had to do that before he could make anything out of it. He found the Indian incompetent — the one that he knew was incompetent — and he put him on that land, or put him in the way of filing on it, and having it allotted to him, and I know absolutely that the only idea he had in doing that was his own seK-gain. I believe the grafters are honest to that extent. The Chairman. To what extent? Mr. Warren. That they tried to get the best piece of land they could for the Indian. • The Chairman. Why did they try to do that? Mr. Warren. Because they expected to lease it from the Indian for a term of years at a nominal rental, and rent it out again as high as they could, and that was the only way they could get their money back that they were spending on these Indians and in getting the land allotted to them. Their own self-interest prompted them to do that, for the better the land the more money in the long run there was in the deal for them. Of course the land reverts to the Indian, but at the same time the grafters get the best of it for the present. They can only hold that land for five years, for that is the limit which the law fixes on leases; and so I say that I agree with Mr.- McCoy and say that this arrangement and method of doing has on the whole been of great advantage to the Indians. Now, the trouble is, the idea that the so-called grafter at the end of five years will find conditions then in such shape that he can buy it, and I be- lieve that is what he wants and what he is working for to shape things around to that end. I believe when he selected the land he had that ultimate end in view and he will accomplish his end if you men in Congress do not fix it so he can not. The Chairman. Do you believe that there are contracts made, orally, that such will be the case ? Mr. Warren. I believe that there are contracts made orally to that effect with the Indians. The Chairman. The grafter builds his hopes on the character of the Indian and his proneness for keeping his word, and expects that when the time comes the Indian will perform his part of the contract ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In other words, the grafter is relying on the fact that when an Indian makes a promise he will carry it out, and he expects that when the proper time comes and he calls on the Indian for the redemption of his promise he will do his part and execute a conveyance ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; I am not defending the grafter, not by any means. I believe he goes about it deliberately. He selects as a victim a man of a dissolute character, who gets drunk at every oppor- tunity. That is the kind of a man he selects — one that can be easily influenced and led, and he can find such. He does not select the high class full blood, not on your life, but takes men from the low down and dissolute drunken class, the ones that are absolutely worth- less. He has planted them all around this country, on the very best and choicest lands in it, with the deliberate intent to get the land some time.- I have no manner of doubt but that in every instance FIVE CIVILIZBD TRIBES. 1087 he has an agreement or understanding with the Indian that when the time comes that the Indian can do it he will turn it over to him, the grafter. He has gone away over to the Choctaw Nation and brought Indians from there and located them here, and has taken the low- down Indians from here and located them over there, for the lands could be located indiscriminately in either nation by citizens of either nation. He tries to get them to locate their land as far as possible away from the place where they made their homes, for a great many of these full-blood Indians will not leave their old homes, where they have lived all their lives, to live on their homestead allotments, and it is part of the grafter's plan to keep them from their allotments, so he can lease them. Of course he would take the Indians wherever he could get them, and he got plenty of them right around here. All this that I have stated refers to the incompetents among the full bloods. They were the ones that the grafter loved to deal with — the dissolute and incompetent. It is not the educated, aspiring ones that he encouraged by picking out a good allotment for them. That land of an Indian could probably go out and select a good one for himself, so the grafter had no use for him. In this connection I will say this, that while there are lots of no account, incompetent, full blood or native Chickasaws, I do not want you to think that they are in a majority by any means. I do not think there are over 25 per cent of them that can not attend to their busi- ness as well as a white man of average ability can. That leaves 75. per cent of them that are just as competent as any white man. I do not think I am exaggerating it. I have had a good deal of business with them. I did not intend to say a word when I came up here, but when I heard that statement of the incompetence of the native Chickasaw I had to get up and make a talk. I have said a great deal more than I thought I would when I started. Why talk about the Indian being incompetent ? Is not the average white man incompetent ? Among white men is there one in ten that succeeds? No, sir; not one in ten, and if one in ten of them did suc- ceed that would be only 10 per cent. The Indian can not make a worse showing than that. Still I believe they ought to be protected when they are incompetent, and I believe there are lots of white men that ought to be protected in the same way. The Chairman. The grafter selects the man that he can get the best of, and is careful not to select the man that will get the best of him? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; he selects his victim with great care and discrimination. The Chairman. He selects one that is easily led and has not much force of character? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; that is the idea. I will say this: If you could take ten thousand white people out of any State in the Union, just as the people come — good, bad, and indifferent — and select ten thousand Chickasaws, and then bring those white people down here and turn them loose among the Chickasaws, with the sanie oppor- tunities and advantages that the Chickasaws have, the Chickasaws, at the end of a year, will show that they are just as capable of attending to their affairs and looking out for their interests as the 10,000 people from the States were. I believe that if that test could be applied it would show that I am correct. There has been a whole 1088 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. lot of talk about this thing by people who either do not know what they are talking about or who have an ax to grind, but the fact is that there is not much difference between these Chickasaw people and peo- ple anywhere. There are the good ones and the bad ones and the indifferent ones in both races, and they would all size up about alike. The Chairman. What is your view with regard to the removal of restrictions ? Mr. Warren. I have always held to the view that the restrictions ought to be taken off altogether from every man who is any way competent to do his own business. I believe that there should be an educational test applied as to a man's ability to attend to business, whether he is red, black, or white. There are, in proportion, just about as many white men who need guardians as there are red men. The Chairman. We can not do anything like that for the whites. They would not stand for it, but I am sometimes inclined to think you are about right. It being impracticable to apply the rule to the white men, you would apply it to the Indians ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You think there ought to be some sort of examina- tion to test their competency? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Would you apply that test to all classes among the Indians ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; to all classes excepting the Mississippi Choctaws, but I do not believe I would to them. I do not believe that 10 per cent of them are competent. I doubt if any of them are really competent. There might be one here and there. The Chairman. We shall set them aside. There are three classes into which in my own mind I have divided the so-called Indian citi- zens. These classes are the mtermarried whites, the mixed bloods, the full bloods, and the freedmen. That makes four classes. As to the intermarried white and his wife, do you think that the restric- tions ought to be removed from them? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. On the homestead and aU ? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; on every person in that class. The Chairman. How is it as to the mixed bloods ? Mr. Warren. I believe the mixed bloods as a rule are Just as well able to look after their business as the whites are. I will say that everyone of them that I have known is capable of doing it. I think they are capable of looking after their surplus as well as their home- stead. The Chairman. Then, as to the full bloods? Mr. Warren. As I have said, 75 per cent of them are capable of taking care of themselves just as well as the mixed bloods. That leaves about 25 per cent of the full bloods that are not, and for them I think there ought to be some kind of restrictions. The Chairman. Of course, in taking either of these classes you could not designate by law those that were really capable of taking care of their business and those that were not. You understand that, I suppose? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; I realize that. The Chairman. It has been suggested that in a case like that the United States district court, the State district court, or some other FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1089 proper tribunal down here should have the authority to inquire into the competency of these people, and that its judgment should be final. What do you think of that proposition? Mr. Warren. I think it is the only solution of it — to inquire into their competency to transact business and let that be final. The Chairman. That is, in the case of the full bloods? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then you would have that removable restriction left on the full bloods, while on the mixed bloods and intermarried whites you would remove it absolutely? Mr. Warren. Yes, sir; for I think they are just as able to take care of their business as any other people are. The Chairman. From wnat State are you ? Mr. Warren. From Maryland. I will say from Baltimore. The Chairman. How long have you been here ? Mr. Warren. Twenty-five years. The Chairman. Here is a matter of some importance that I wish to mention. Inasmuch as a great deal of abuse and opprobrium have been heaped upon the "grafters," both here and elsewhere, it is quite possible that something may be heard from them. Some of them may be present and desire to be heard. Under these cir- cumstances I am asked by Senator Long if I have a "grafter"on my list, and I must confess that I have no one that I know as such. Several gentlemen spoke to me who said they were engaged ia the real estate business and would like to be heard, but I do not know now who they are or whether any of them are present. I do not know personally whether any of them are in the real estate business or not; but if any of them are present and would like to be heard on the matter we should like to get their views upon what appears to be the burning issue in this section, as well as other sections where we have been. Once or twice over at Muscogee, and at one or two other places, men who are dealing in lands were present and made their statements, claiming that their dealings were legitimate and honest, and the committee was very much instructed. So if any of them are here and care to give us any information we should be glad to hear them. First, I would ask if Mr. S. A. Mills, of the Government service, is ia the room? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; here I am. The Chairman. Mr. Mills, we have received a communication saying that you could give us some information on this grafting proposition. We would be glad if you would come forward and give what information you have on this matter. STATEMENT OF MB. S. A. MILLS. The Chairman. You are in the Government service? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is your official designation? Mr. Mills. Clerk at the United States Indian Agency. The Chairman. And what is the nature of your particular duties? Mr. Mills. To investigate complaints that are made in the "in- truder" department of the agency. The Chairman. Your work, then, is in the field largely? S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 70 1090 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; largely so. The Chairman. Mr. Mills, I will hand you this communication, which I will not ask you to read aloud because it is so long, but which I will have incorporated as a part of your examination in the record of our proceedings, in which you state that you have an intimate acquaintance with the manner in which this land busi- ness is carried on between the Indian and the speculator or purchaser. Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. First, I would like you to state to the committee what your opportunities have been for observation. Mr. Mills. I may say that I am in contact with this land matter daily. , Senator Long. In all the nations, or just in this nation ? Mr. Mills. For the last eighteen months in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, and prior tot hat time in the northern nations. Senator Long. We wish to know specially, now, in regard to the conditions in this nation and in the Choctaw Nation. The Chairman. In making your statement you might follow along the line of this statement, for it seems to be very well arranged. It would be well to use it to refresh your memory. Mr. Mills. Do you wish to be made acquainted with the condition of the lands as held at the time the allotments commenced? Do you wish me to go into that ? The Chairman. No; we do not care particularly in regard to that. Senator Long. How the business is transacted between these three classes — between the Indian, the farmer who is the man who toils, and the grafter or the middleman that deals with both of them. The paper referred to by the chairman is as follows: The allotment .of lands to the citizens of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations com- menced in April, 1903. At that time various citizens held large tracts of lands by virtue of the improvements had thereon and now citizens under rental arrangement with such citizens. A time for allotment of these lands to the individual citizens of these tribes having arrived, it was found that after the area to which the mem- bers of a family of a citizen so holding was larger than could be taken up by the several members of that family by allotment, the balance then became known as excess holdings, and subject to allotment by any other member of said tribes, which then was made a subject of barter and trade, caused by a ruling of the Dawes Com- mission, which was that any person owning certain improvements were entitled to select their allotments where their improvements were located. Therefore, those who were holding this excess land, desiring to retain the possession of these excess lands, through themselves and their agents, solicited and procured individual mem- bers of the tribes to purchase certain improvements located upon these excess lands, in order that they might, by the showing of their ownership of the improvements on these lands, be allotted same, as a bill of sale showing the title of the would-be allottee to the improvements under which to allot said land was necessary At this time, being familiar with these conditions and the requirements of the Dawes Commission, many white men, noncitizens, purchased, in many instances, the improvements upon these excess holdings, and in many instances never paying for them. Then the noncitizens themselves, and their agents, would find citizens who were not allotted and who had no such improvements or means to purchase same, and induced them to make selections of these lands so held, furnishing such citizens with bill of sale for said improvements to show ownership for the purpose of showing the right of allotment of mis particular tract of land, exacting from such, citizen allottee a lease contract for a term of five years, in which the compensation to be paid for the use of said lands per annum were anywhere from 6 cents per acre and upward, and in a great many cases in which an allotment of 200 acres of splendid land would he leased for from $30 to $60 per annum, with a charge against same for the improvements so conveyed at an exorbitant figure, in many cases equaling the entire rental, leaving no compensation or revenue for the term of the lease; in many cases aking the allottee's note for same, and I have found a great many of these FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1091 notes have not been canceled at the termination of the year for which the note was made payable. And I will say that in many of these cases the allottees, particu- larly the full-blood portion, never saw the land so allotted to them, they filing same from a slip of paper or the bill of sale containing the description of the land to be allotted. • It is a well-known fact that many allottees were shown the same tract of land as being the land they were to allot, they filing with that understanding and belief, sub- sequently to find that the land allotted to them was located elsewhere, and in fact many of them do not, at this day, know where their allotments really are. So far as the Choctaws and the Mississippi Choctaws are concerned, particularly the full bloods, these agents arranged their filings in such a manner that their homesteads are in the main in the rocky, rough portions of the Choctaw nations, whereas their surplus allot- ments were selected and allotted as aforesaid in the Choctaw Nation, which is princi- pally level, rich, prairie soil, and not heavily timbered, and easily placed in cultiva- tion, and in fact much of the same was in cultivation at the time of the allotment. It then being the understanding among these land agents, that being surplus lands, it would be in the market at an early date and could be readily and cheaply purchased from the allottees, they residing in a remote part of the nation and not being familiar with their surplus allotments or their value. In regard to the foregoing statement, I will state that in many instances these allottees were induced to sign notes represent- ing the purchase price at fabulous prices for the foregoing improvements, which in some instances did not really exist; and in many instances the land agents obtained warranty deeds for their surplus lands in which these notes were deducted from the agreed price, which was anywhere from the appraised value upward, and rarely in any instance being one-half the value of the land, thereby the allottee parting with his surplus allotment for a very ridiculous small price compared to its real value, the allottee not knowing any better. In some instances, after the allottee having been allotted and having leased same, finding that the rents, which he understood were to have been paid him, were not forthcoming, makes complaint to the Indian agent, after which the matter is investi- gated by a representative of the Indian agent, during which investigation it is usually developed that the allottee is induced to sign the lease under which the land is being held by representations of certain promises and figures which would be favorable to the allottee, but which the lease does not contain. This is due to the fact that very few of the full-blood citizens are able to read or write the English language, and as a result of these investigations the Indian agent has forwarded to the Department of Justice many cases for an action for the cancellation of such leases under which such lands are being held. There is much complaint on the part of the lessor of the failure of lessee to pay any part of the rent to lessor, and upon investigation of such cases it is usually found that the lessee had lessors charged up with such charges as the lessor had no knowledge of; in fact the causes of complaint are so numerous that it would be dif- ficult to enumerate them all, and it shows a tendency of the lessees to obtain as much from the lessors as possible for as little as possible. This, as a rule, does not apply to the sublessees, who, as a rule, are poor, but hard- working, farmers, who till the soil, making it as productive as possible, they paying the original lessees a usual customary crop rental of one-third of all cereals and one-fourth of the cotton raised; the original lessees usually being corporations, companies, and some individuals, who are holding large areas of these lands paying as above as rentals a very small rental and receiving very large returns. These companies and land- holders do not pay crop rentals or its equivalent, which should be paid to the citizen, whereby the citizen would receive what he is justly entitied to for the use of his land. I might add in many instances they are not placing any improvements on the allot- ments so leased, and in others allowing such improvements as are upon these lands to depreciate without repair or renewal, so that at the end of the lease the premises will be in a worse condition than when they were first leased. These same conditions also apply to the lands of the minors, which is now being held by lessees, which were obtained and are being held under the same conditions as those of the adults just recited. In many cases, there has been guardians appointed for these minors and for other curators and in many cases both guardians and curators, and in the majority of cases these guardians and curators are not either of the parents or of kin, but belong to that number of what is known as professional guardians and curators; that is, men who have made it a business to seek these appointments not as a matter of philanthropy, but as a business proposition, for the several purposes of the fees attached to serving as'such guardians or curators, and the possible profits to their friends to whom they lease the lands of said minors. The procedure m obtaining these appointments as followed by the several corporations, land companies, and real estate agents, was, and is that they employ representatives to traverse the country, making from house to house canvasses, and other information, find where there are minor children and 1092 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. under various representations, as in the matter of leases and deeds heretofore made, for a consideration, obtain the signature or mark of the parent, or where there are no par- ents the next of kin, or their next friend, to an instrument, what is known as a waiver. Having obtained same, presenting same to the court of jurisdiction and obtain the appointment of those desired by them as such guardian or curator. And it is reported and stated to be a fact by many parents that they were totally unaware of the fact that these strangers were being made the guardians and curators of their children, they signing said waivers, in many instances denying ever signing such instruments. That such paper as they did sign being represented as being one of some other nature. The. same may be said of, and it is a fact in administration matters, where the same tactics are pursued and the same results obtained. There are many, many leases made under the foregoing conditions that have been approved by the courts, wherein the compen- sation is inadequate, and the minors thus affected are caused a great loss both mentally and physically — as for instance, whereas a minor's estate, in many cases as a matter of record, will show they are now being rented from $50 upward to $100 rental per annum, which is barely sufficient to maintain these minors in their ill-kept home, said estates are worth, and they should receive as rentals several times that amount, which would properly feed and clothe them, and maintain them at school, which many of them in their present condition are not able to attend. Many of the guardians and curators, never look into the care of their wards, simply acting as the legal pivot upon which their friends can turn the estates of said minors to the best advantage. I feel that after the minors, and this particular class of cases, should have your special attention and the evils pertaining thereto remedied. The records here upon examination with the lands will show many such cases, and in these cases it will be found upon examina- tion and investigation that in many cases that while the lands and the curators are located in the Chickasaw Nation the minors are residents of the Choctaw Nation, and that the curators in many instances have never seen the minors, and the same-may be said of the guardians. The guardians' and curators' interests seem to center solely in the matter of fees and the interests of their friends, the lessees. The foregoing applies more strongly to that portion of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes known as the Mississippi Choctaw, who were brought to the Choctaw Nation during the years 1901 and 1902 from Mississippi, they being more illiterate and strangers in the country they were more easily imposed upon, many of them having been brought here by speculators upon misrepresentations, whereby they were induced to give notes and" contracts to transfer parts of their allotments to said contractors or their assigns, and in many cases being induced to sign wills making said speculators their heirs to the exclusion of the natural heirs, which wills it is now being attempted to have probated, and under the practices of the land speculators I believe them to have been the greatest suf- ferers as is evidenced by the additional contracts made by them to sell the pine tim- bers upon their allotments in the pine belt and the leases on their agricultural lands in the agricultural districts. A word aa to the leasing of homestead lands of the full-blood Indians, as provided for in section 19 of the act of Congress approved April 26, 1906, "Public No. 129," relative to the leasing of the lands allotted to the full-blood Indians of the Five Civilized Tribes, wherein it is provided that such full-blood Indians of any of such tribes may lease any lands other than homesteads for more than one year under such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, and in case of the inability of any full blood, owner of a homestead, on account of infirmity or old age, to work or farm his homestead, the Secretary of the Interior, upon proof of such inability, may authorize the leasing of such homestead under such rules and regula- tions. I will state that it is my opinion that this works a great hardship on many, and in fact all such citizens. The facts being that such homesteads run from eighty to possibly two thousand acres, and it is a well-known fact these citizens as a rule will not cultivate that amount. In fact it is a very rare case where one will cultivate more than 40 acres, and under such conditions the balance of their homesteads lies vacant and unimproved, and they are deprived from receiving a revenue therefrom, as the result causing a hardship to such citizens; as the revenues from their surplus allotment alone is not sufficient to maintain them, and a greater portion of their allotment, and a particularly desirable part, the homestead remains undeveloped and unimproved. This particularly applies to the female portion of said full bloods and the minors who, not on accouiit of infirmity, but who on account of sex and age, could not if they would cultivate their homesteads. It readily can be seen the injustice and loss inflicted by this provision. While I believe that a portion of such homesteads should be reserved from sale or lease and that portion be prohibited during the life time of the allottee as an insurance and guarantee that the allottee, should reverses or disabilities overtake them, that they still might have sufficient land whereon they may make a living and have a home from which they can aot be evicted, also as such leases as are made for one year are FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. 1093 very dangerous from the fact that without supervision, advantages will be taken, unless the rules and regulations such as are prescribed in the Atoka treaty, "Public No. 162," section 29, page 14, be prescribed, as without such rules and regulations, verbal leases would be hard to control, and as in the past great advantage will be taken of such citi- zens, or that section 20 of this act, April 26, 1906, be amended to read, "that after the approval of this act, all leases and rental contracts for agricultural or mineral purposes for lands of full-blood allottees of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole tribes of Indians shall be in writing and subject to approval of the Secretary of the Interior," or such other officer as may be appointed, and shall be absolutely void and of no effect without such approval, provided that allotments of minors and incompetents may be leased under order of the proper court; provided further that all such leases shall be recorded within ninety days, m the district in which said lands are located, from the date of the approval. Now, possibly I had better start this way — at the time of the open- ing of the office for the making of allotments of land to the Indians, a great many white men and some Indians were holding large holdings of land. In the allotments they were restricted in each case to a cer- tain area of land, according to the appraised value of it — that is, their allotment as far as the area was concerned was dependent on the value of the land they selected. In many instances, having exhausted the land that they could file on with the members of their families, each filing for a like amount, having all exhausted the amount of land they could file on, in many instances, there was excess land left of their holdings. In those cases where they desired to retain possession of the land temporarily, or maybe with a view of ultimately acquiring it, they would go out and either through agents or by themselves secure citizens — Indians who were citizens of the Choctaw, more particu- larly — and have them brought to the land office; or, rather, they would first take them out in the country to where the land was and show it to them, or show them certain tracts of land, or give them a minute description of it, and have them file on it. They would first get the bill of sale foi* the improvements and transfer that i^o the Indian, or they would have the bill of sale to the improvements on the land made to the Indian in the first place The Chairman. The white man or speculator would do that ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. They would select the land and arrange with the owner of the improvements, and then when they got his consent, he being a citizen and entitled to file, they would get him to look at the land and take him to the land office and have him file on the land. In some instances they did not show them the land, so the Indians claim, that they filed on, but they would give them a descrip- tion of it for use at the land office. This was the course of procedure followed, according to my knowledge, in the Choctaw Nation more particularly, although it was by no means confined exclusively to that nation. Immediately after the filing they would take a lease to reimburse them for the improvements disposed of. These leases were for a five-year term. The major portion of these citizens were brought from a distance m the Choctaw Nation, and they knew nothuig or very little about the country where their allotments m)uld be made. It was a desirable country for the surplus allot- ments, and the result is that these citizens, through the means I have stated, have filed on their surplus allotments over here m the Chickasaw Nation, while their homesteads are back m the Choctaw Nation where they came from. ., i ■ i n That was the general condition that prevaded m the allotment of land. Many of these people— noncitizens, particularly— would go 1094 I'lVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. out and obtain or purchase the improvements on some of these excess holdings and would transfer them to citizens and would have them file on that land, taking a lease for five years. The leases vary in price. Some received more than others for the use of these lands. Then the noncitizen or the real-estate man, or the citizen, as the case may be, who came into possession of these leases and not working them themselves, they would sublease them' to these farmers, and' they would usually pay one-third to one-fourth crop rents. It would be one-third of the cereals and one-fourth of the cotton raised on these lands. The Chairman. As between the allottee and the real-estate man, and between the real-estate man and the farmer, what, if any, dis- crepancy or profit was there in the rental value fixed ? Mr. Mills. In most cases there was a very large difference in favor of the original lessee in this, that the original lease from the allottee to the real-estate man would call for a rental of $30, $40, $50, or $60 per annum, as the case might be, and it would be rented to the farmer for a share of the crop, which usually came to a great deal more. Senator Long. On the average, what would the original lease generally be ? Mr. Mills. It would run from $30 to $60 a year. Senator Long. For how many, acres ? Mr. Mills. As a rule, for 200-acre allotments. Senator Long. That would be from 15 to 30 cents an acre? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Those were the original leases, as evidenced on the records. Senator Long. Then what would he lease that to the farmer for? Mr. Mills. For from one-third to one-fourth of the crop raised — one-third of the cereals and one-fourth of the cotton. Senator Long. About what would that be on the average ? Mr. Mills. In many instances the cotton would go from a quarter to half a bale to the acre, and in some cases to three-fourths of a bale, and in some few instances it would produce even as much as a bale to the acre, but that would be an extraordinary good yield. But on the average, taking one year with another, I would say that the aver- age yield of cotton per acre would be from a quarter to half a bale. Now, that would not be the average of the whole tract or allotment, or whatever it might be. It would be for so much of it as was in culti- vation. There might be, say, 200 acres in a tract, and only 50 acres in cultivation, and the yield of cotton on that part in cultivation would vary from 12 or 13 bales to 25 bales for the part in cultivation. On practically all of these allotments there was only a part of it in cultivation, and on some of them there would not be anything at all. When taking a lease on land that was not in cultivation the lessees would contract with the sublessee to put it in cultivation on different terms. In many cases they would get it put in cultivation for the crop of the first year, and in other cases they would hire — the lessees would hire it broken out for $1 or $1.25 an acre if it was prairie land, and if it was lightly timbered for, say, $2 or $3 or $4 an acre, accord- ing to the amount of timber on it, and on the heavily timbered land it would cost as much as $8 or $10 an acre. The amount that they paid for putting the land in cultivation would depend on the amount FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1095 of work to put it in a state of cultivation, and whatever it was it would come out of the lease. Senator Long. You have told what the real-estate man paid the Indian for the land; now I want to know what he would get from the farmer to whom he would lease it ? Mr. Mills. The farmer would pay in crop-rent as a rule, and what that would amount to would be pretty hard for me to figure, for it would vary from year to year, according to the kind or crop and what it brought in the market. Senator Long. Of course, I did not expect where the rent was a share of the crop, that you could tell what it would be, but in some instances the rent was paid in cash, was it not ? . Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What would it be when the rent was paid in cash ? Mr. Mills. It would run all the way from $1.50 to $5 an acre. Senator Long. "What would be the average? Mr. Mills. I think the average would be about $2.50 an acre. Senator Long. For the whole 200 acres ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; that would be for the part that was in cul- tivation. Senator Long. So the rent would average about $2.50 for the part of the tract that was in cultivation ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. In some instances it might all be in cultiva- tion, but that would not be very often. You might say that as a rule on these allotments there would be from 40 to 60 acres in cultiva- tion when they would start in, and each year they would increase it, so it would be very hard to arrive at the average. That was about the way it ran. There would hardly be any two of the farms just alike. Senator Long. And the sublessee did not pay anything for the land that was not tilled ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; as a rule he did not, not unless it was leased as pasturage, for a great deal of the land down in these nations is leased to cattlemen for pasturage of their cattle. Senator Long. How much does the land rent for in that case ? Mr. Mills. That brings about 50 cents an acre. Senator Long. Who owns the improvements ? Mr. Mills. The original lessee claims to own them. They are made a part of the consideration in the lease. Senator Long. And at the end of the five years the improvements are to belong to the Indian ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are those improvements usually of considerable value ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; very rarely. •, , , , The Chairman. These improvements are put there by the real estate man? He puts them there so he can lease the land to ad van- Mr Mills. Not always. They are not always put there by the real estate man. He finds them there when the land was thrown open to allotment. They belonged originally to the possessory right in the nation— such persons being either citizens or else noncitizens who were holding under citizens; and at that time the tribal laws allowed them to hold these lands as they desired. 1096 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. Did you say it was your duty to investigate these leases ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Without giving specific instances and speaking generally, what have you found as to the adequacy of the compensa- tion on these leases ? Mr. Mills. I find it to be inadequate — that is, I find it to be below what it should be. The Chairman. That is to say, the Indian does not get what he should get for his land ? Mr. Mills. He does not, in my opinion, get as much as he should. The Chairman. The contract between the Indian and the "grafter,"* as he is called, is not a fair one to the Indian in your opinion ? Is that what you say ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I do not think it is fair. The Chairman. On the other hand, does the grafter or real estate man get a fair compensation from the farmer ? Mr. Mills. He does, in my opinion. The Chairman. In your opinion he gets all the land is worth ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So of the three classes affected, you think, under the present situation of affairs, he is the one that has the least com- plaint to make? Mr. Mills. There is no question about that. The Chairman. So the parties that you think have a right to com- plain, if any one has, is the Indian on the one hand and the farmer on the other ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you found many instances where a grossly inadequate compensation is stipulated? Mr. Mills. I have, sir. The Chairman. What have you done with such cases? Mr. Mills. I have reported them to the office, and the office in turn has referred them to the United States district attorney for action, in the United States courts, to cancel these leases. The Chairman. Have suits been brought in any of these cases ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; in a number of cases they have been, but we have received only one decision as yet out of all the cases brought, and that was handed down last week in the central district, in which the Government received the decision. The Chairman. Upon whose initiative are these suits brought — by the lessor or the Indian agent ? Mr. Mills. They are brought by the Government through the inspector, Mr. J. George Wright. Senator Long. There have been a number of these suits brought ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. To cancel these leases? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And one case has been decided? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And that case was decided in favor of the Govern- ment? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What judge rendered that decision? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1097 Mr. Mills. The Hon. T. C. Humphrey. Senator Long. How many of these cases have you pending ? Mr. Mills. I can not tell you from memory, but I believe I have the number right here. During -the fiscal year ending in 1906 sixty- four cases were investigated. Senator Long. During the fiscal year ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; 64 cases were investigated, and since that time 22 cases have been sent up. Senator Long. Do you mean that only 64 cases were investigated ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; there were more than that investigated, but 64 were reported for suit or sent up to the United States court. Senator Long. How many cases in all were investigated during the fiscal year last past ? Mr. Mills. During the fiscal year ending Jime 30, 1906, 1,445 cases were investigated. Senator Long. Did you investigate all these cases yourself ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; it would be out of my power to investigate so many. Senator Long. Do you know who did investigate them? Mr. Mills. Mr. W. W. Bennett, as well as myself, and several of our other men were engaged on the work. Senator Long. Well, or these 1,445 cases, how many were reported for suit ? Mr. Mills. Sixty-four. But you must understand that that does not represent the disposition of all these cases. Senator Long. Will you please explain what you mean by that answer ? Mr. Mills. I mean that when an Indian feels aggrieved he files a complaint in any case which he desires to have checked or investi- gated between himself and his lessee; and usually these cases are referred to the men in the field, and we go out and look into them, and we get the parties together, and they offer what evidence they have, and we hear it and sift the matter thoroughly, and after it is through we advise both of them; and if we find out that in our opin- ion either party is wrong, we advise them what to do to remedy the wrong and we tell them that if they can't agree on a settlement the Department will have to intervene. We advise the defendant if he is wrong that if he will pay up the difference between what he has paid and what he ought to have paid and will make a new lease on an equitable basis, if the Indian desires it, that it will be settled that way and that will end it right there. The Chairman. He is investigated in that particular case? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; each particular case is investigated separately. It is not always a case of trouble between the lessor and the lessee. Senator Long. Very often it is a case of dispute between the real- estate man and his lessee ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Of all these cases you investigated during the last fiscal year, 64 cases were reported for suit ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. . • j •, ' Senator Long. And how many cases have been investigated and reported for suit since the 1st of July? Mr. Mills. Twenty-two. 1098 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Beandegee. Of all the cases that were investigated since the 1st of July, 1905, there were upward of 80 indictments. Now, how many of these disputes were settled by compromises between the parties in which the real-estate man made amends ? Mr. Mills. That was the result as to all 'the balance, with the exception of some 216. Senator Brandegee. How is that? Mr. Mills. There were 216 left over still to look further into. Senator Brandegee. Two hundred and sixteen that you have not yet looked into ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; that we have not fully looked into. The Chairman. The inquiry was: In how many of these cases in which the compromise was made did the real-estate man comply with the suggestion of the agent that he was getting the best of it and should make it right with the Indian? In all the other cases that was done? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That would be in about eleven hundred cases that it was done? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. \ The Chairman. Then the complaint of the Indian was found to be substantially just? Mr. Mills. Not in all of them. The Chairman. In how many of these fourteen hundred and some odd cases did you find the complaint to be groundless? Mr. Mills. There were some few of them. The Chairman. In about how many cases did you find the com- plaint to be groundless? Mr. Mills. In a small percentage — less than 100 cases, I think. The Chairman. There were a little less than 100 of the complaints, which, upon investigation, were found to be without merit ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the basis upon which compromises were efi^ected ? Mr. Mills. We would take into consideration the amount of land that was in cultivation on the basis of a reasonable rental value, which rental value differed in different localities. In some places the land was worth more than it was in others. It depended on the nature of the soil and the conditions surrounding it generally. All these things were taken into consideration, and in that way we arrived at the reasonable rental value. The Chairman. How did that compare with the amount paid the allottee in the first instance ? Mr. Mills. The new appraisement made a considerable difference in favor of the allottee. The Chairman. How much more did the arrangement pay him — as much as 100 per cent? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; in some instances it did, but not in all of them. The Chairman. Did you find any instance where the finding was against the speculator — where he preferred to have his lease can- celed, rather than submit to your suggestions? Mr. Mills. There were a few. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1099 The Chairman. Were there many of them, in comparison with the whole amount? Mr. Mills. Very few. The Chairman. As a general proposition, the speculator thought enough of his bargain to acquiesce in your suggestion as to what shouM be done ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And so in substantially every case the complaint of the allottee was found to be well founded ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; and in most cases it was found that the dispo- sition of the speculator was to settle. Senator Brandegee. Are these cases that are pending in court simply proceedings to set aside the leases, or are they indictments for criminal misconduct? Mr. Mills. Suits simply to set aside the leases under the act of 1898. Senator Long. Do you investigate the cases of minors? Mr. Mills. If a complaint comes in and I find there is a legal guardian appointed I do not; and if there is not a legal guardian, I do. Senator Long. So these 1,400 and more cases are cases outside of minor's cases? Mr. Mills. No, sir; they include these. Senator Long. These are outside of the legal-guardian cases ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Where there is a legal guardian appointed by pro- ceedings in court, you do not investigate? Mr. Mills. No, sir. Senator Long. Your duties do not include that ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; when we find there has been a legal guardian appointed we stop right there. The Chairman. Does this disturb the relations between the grafter and the farmer in some instances ? Mr. Mills. I do not know. I could not say what took place after I got off the ground. Senator Long. You take the evidence of the allottee, and the evidence of the real-estate man, and the evidence of the farmer? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And your purpose in doing that is only to ascertam if the compensation was adequate ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; and very frequently— m fact, m more cases than not, we went on the ground itself and viewed it and saw it for ourselves. j- u Senator Long. And there are a number of cases pendmg where complaint has been made that you have not been able as yet to investigate ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. i -, i, ^i, t, ^- + Senator Long. How many men are employed by the Department in this kind of work? ^_. .^ .^ -r, ^^ ,t •Mr Mills. There are five— there are Mr. W. W. Bennett, Mr. Frank Eobb, and W. H. Van Doran, and myself. , ^ ^ The Chairman. Do the operations of these men extend beyond the Five Civihzed Tribes ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; but it is not the same system everywhere. It is a different system in the Seminole Nation. 1100 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. What is the difference or what is the system there ? Mr. Mills. Over there, all leases are approved by the principal chief and the attorney for the nation, and so there is very little trouble there. The Chairman. Where do you have the most trouble ? Mr. Mn.LS. In the Chickasaw Nation. The Chairman. Particularly down in this part of the nation? Mr. Mills. Not particularly here. It is all over it. The Chairman. Is the grafting system different here from what it is elsewhere ? Mr. Mills. I can not say that it is. It is pretty much alike where- ever you go. • The Chairman. They work on about the same lines everywhere ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Under the present system, are these leases which you investigate leases that are approved by any person ? Mr. Mills. No, sir. The Chairman. They are not leases that require any special approval ? Mr. Mills. No, sir. Senator Long. Mr. Mills, in your investigations, do you find in some cases evidence showing that there is a contract outstanding for the purchase of the land at the end of the five years, or when the restrictions are to be removed, or will be removed? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I have found such cases. Senator Long. In what nation? Mr. Mills. In the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, in both of them. Senator Long. Did you find many of these cases ? Mr. Mills. I would not say just how many of them, but there have been quite a number of them. Senator Long. In addition to the lease you have found that there was an outstanding contract for the purchase of the land ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Either oral or written? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I have found such cases. Senator Long. Have you found many cases in which there was an outstanding warranty deed ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I have some here. Senator Long. Are there many of these cases? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Where there is a warranty deed outstanding for the purchase of the land ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. At this point Mr. Guy P. Cobb announced his presence to the com- mittee, and stated his readiness to be examined or make a statement. The Chairman. Where is your residence, Mr. Cobb? Mr. Cobb. Ardmore, Ind. T. The Chairman. What is your business ? Mr. Cobb. I am in the real estate business, and one of the "graft- ers," I suppose. The Chairman. We tried to hear from you a while ago, but you did not answer. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1101 Mr. Cobb. So I am informed. I was not present else I would have answered then. I have heard a great deal said here about leases and contracts for sale, and I just want to interpose this one word, that the law specifically provides that where there is a con- tract for lease and sale, the lease is absolutely void. Senator Long. You may proceed. Mr. Cobb. What does the committee wish to know from me? Senator Long. Have you any of these leases ? Mr. Cobb. I have. Senator Long. Many of them? Mr. Cobb. Lots of them. Senator Long. Have you any of these deeds ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are they different from ordinary deeds ? Mr. Cobb. No; they are just the same. Senator Long. Are they just the ordinary warranty deeds? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Made by the Indians who have had their restric- tions removed? Mr. Cobb. No, sir. The Chairman. It is a warranty deed ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. The Chairman (to Mr. Mills). I suppose, Mr. Mills, that the deeds just referred to are taken on the theory that the parties will pass the title when the title accrues? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Here is one that I was acting on, and the matter has not gone through our department yet. The Chairman. How did you get possession of these? Mr. Mills. They are certified copies of the records in the district where the land is located. The Chairman. These are deeds made by the allottee to the lessee ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And when you find them you report them? Mr. Mills. My duty is to report them to the head of the depart- ment. The Chairman. For the cancellation of the deed ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Clark. These deeds were placed on record ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I suppose so. Senator Brandegee. Have you heard any complaints a,gainst guardians ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I hear them in my travels around. I have nothing to do with them. Senator Brandegee. When you come to the guardian, you stop? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. What did you sa> about that? Mr. Mills. I was asked if I inquired into leases made by legal guardians, and I said that there are a great many minors that have no legal guardians. Their parents act for them, and when they want to take possession of the minor's allotment we refer the matter to the Indian agent, and then it is referred for examination to me, and then we run up against the proposition— for often it will turn out that there is a legal guardian, and the parents many times com- plain to me that they did' not know there was a legal guardian. I do 1102 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. not know really whether they know it or not, but they say they do not know it. When I find there is one, I refer them to the legal guardian, and if there is any trouble the matter can come up through the legal guardian and not through them. Senator Brandegee. In this case who makes the complaint on behalf of the minor? Mr. Mills. Where there is a legal guardian it is the guardian, and where there is not it is the parent as a rule. Senator Long. Do you examine cases where there is a legal guardian ? Mr. Mills. No, sir. The legal guardian may make the complaint for the minor, and if he does we examine into it just the same as if it was an adult matter. « The Chaieman. How does a minor without a legal guardian and when acting through his parents make a lease to land ? Mr. Mills. It is usually made by the parent. In the earlier period of the allotments of land here these real estate agents would bring the parent who, maybe, would have four or five children, and allot them all at the same time, and take leases from the parent for the children, and very often that would be done in one lease or instrument. Senator Long. The leases you investigated, Mr. Mills, were made when? Mr. Mills. Along in 1903-4 and 1905, and some of recent date. The Chairman. Here is a deed you have handed me from William Jimmy to A. I. Chapman. Do you know anything about this land described in this deed? Mr. Mills. I have seen the land at a distance, but the land was examined by one of our field men who is here in the room and can tell about it. The Chairman. Do you know what that land discloses as to its value ? Mr. Mills. I know the appraised price — three dollars and a quar- ter — the consideration is $120. Senator Long. For how many acres ? The Chairman. There are 40 acres. Senator Long. That is less than the appraised value. The Chairman. No; it is 20 acres instead of 40. That is $6 an acre. Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What would you say as to that being a fair price for the land in case the deed was regular ? Mr. Mills. I would ask the Senators to ask Mr. Robb about it. He is the man that inspected the land and he knows all about it. He is right here in the room. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Robb, I will ask you what is the fair price or value of this land that has just been described. Mr. Robb. That land is adjoining the town of Ravia, and I judge at a fair valuation it would be worth $20 an acre. The Chairman. Mr. Mills, may I have this certified copy? Mr. Mills. Certainly. The Chairman. We wish to have it in the record. The paper referred to is as follows : FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1103 [No. 2288. William Jimmie, grantor; A. I. Chapman, grantee.] WARRANTY DliED. This indenture, made this the 6th day of June, 1905, between William Jimmie, of Eavia, Indian Territory, party of the first part, and A. I. Chapman, of Ravia, Indian Territory, party of the second part, Witnesseth, that said party of the first, for and in consideration of one hundred and twenty dollars ($120), the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged, does by these presents grant, bargain, sell, and convey unto the party of the second part, her heirs and assigns, all of the following described real estate, situated in the 22nd recording district of the southern district of the Indian Territory, and more particularly described as follows: The W. 4 of the NW. i of the NW. i, the SW. i of the SE. i of the SW. i, section 26, all in township 3 south, range 5 east, the same being thirty (30) acres of land and the first one-fourth (-J-) of the surplus allotment of Choctaw-Chickasaw lands apportioned by the United States Government to the grantor herein; said lands having, before the allotment thereof, been appraised by the United States Government at three dollars and twenty-five cents (§3.25) per acre. To have and to hold the same, together with all and singular the tenements, heredit- aments, and appurtenances thereunto belonging or in anywise appertaining, forever. And the said William Jimmie, for himself and his heirs, executors,'or administrators, does hereby covenant, promise, and agree to and with said party of the second part that at the delivery hereof he was lawfully seized in his own right of an absolute and indefeasible estate by the allotment thereof in severalty under the laws and treaties of the United States of the Choctaw-Chickasaw tribes of Indians. In fee simple of all and singular the above granted and described premises with the appurtenances and that the same are free, clear, discharged, and unincumbered of and free from all former and other grants, titles, charges, estates, judgments, and incumbrances of what nature or kind whatsoever, and that he will warrant and for- ever defend the same until the said A. I. Chapman, the said party of the second part, her heirs and assigns, against said party of the first part, his heirs, and all and every person or persons whomsoever, claiming or to claim the same by, through, or under him, the aforesaid grantor. In witness whereof, the said party of the first part has hereunto set his hand on this the day and year first above written. William (his x mark) Jimmie, Grantor. Witness: Ola Halloway. e. t. youngblood. United States of America, Indian Territory, Southern Judicial District. Before me, Ola Halloway, a notary public in and for the southern district of the Indian Territory, duly commissioned and acting within the body of the said district on this day, personally appeared William Jimmie, to me personally well known to be the person whose name is subscribed to the above and foregoing deed of conveyance as party grantor therein, read said deed, and had the same fully explained to him, separate and apart from the grantee, acknowledged and declared to me that he fully understood the purport of said deed; and the said grantor further acknowledged to me that he had executed the same as his free and voluntary act and deed for the uses and purposes therein set forth, and I do so certify. Witness my hand and official seal as such notary public at the town of Ardmore, Indian Territory, on this the 6th day of June, 1905. [notarial seal.] Ola Halloway, Notary Public. My commission expires Jan. 17, 1909. Campbell Henderson, Inta-preter. Piled for record at Tishomingo, Mar. 24, 1906, 11.45 a. m. R. C. Fleming, deputy clerk and ex-officio recorder, district No. 22, Ind. Ter. Book 10, page 572. Indian Territory, Southern District. I do herebv certify that the within and foregoing is a true, perfect, and literal copy of the original instrument recorded in my office on the 24 day of Mar., 1905, at 11.45 o'clock a. m. ,.„„,, ^ ^ j. i inr^^ Witness my hand and official seal at Tishomingo this 26th day of October, 1906. R. C. Fleming, Deputy Clerk, U. S. Court; Ex Officio Recorder, Dist. No. n, I. T. 1104 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Beandegeb. Out of over 1,400 cases which you exa,m- ined you found that in between 1,100 and 1,200 of them the Indian had made a wretchedly foolish bargain? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman (to Mr. Cobb). Mr. Cobb, when we get through with Mr. Mills we would like to ask you a few questions or give you an opportunity to make any statement you desire. Mr. Cobb. Very well, Mr. Chairman. I will stay right here and be at your service any time you call on me. The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Brandegee (toMr. Mills). Seeing that the Indian had made such ill-advised and foolish bargains, what would you say as to the ability of the average Indian to transact business? Mr. Mills. I would say from my experience with them, and from what I have seen of them, that as a rule they are incompetent to transact business. I think that experience shows very clearly that the Indian is incompetent to transact business along these lines. Senator Brandegee. After having all these sad experiences and having entered into agreements, and finduig he was beaten, and bringing these proceedings or taking these steps to set aside the matters in which he got the worst of it, how does that action on the part of these Indians coincide with the statements that have been made before us to the effect that when an Indian makes a bargain he never goes back on it, and even if he knows it is a bad bargain he is a man of honor and will stand by it? Mr. Mills. I think the Indian as a rule is a man of honor, but when he finds out that he has been overreached or has been deceived, and that things have been misrepresented to him — when he finds that advantage has been taken of his ignorance, will not hesitate to take steps to right himself. That is what prompts them to take steps to have these leases set aside or canceled on the ground of inadequate consideration or inadequate rentals. When he finds out the inadequacy he will come in and ask that it be set aside. Senator Brandegee. I take it that that shows his progress in business acumen and deterioration ia moral principle ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I suppose so. The Chairman. Are these people whose cases are noted here the ones that came here from Mississippi ? Mr. Mills. No, sir. The Chairman. Are they full or mixed bloods? Mr. Mills. They are both. Now these Mississippi Choctaws I find here The Chairman. You have found them also making these com- plaints ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; many of them. Senator Long. Do you mean that the Mississippi Choctaws have made complaints also? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And you find out that they have been wronged ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; very frequently. They come in and make complaints and their cases are handled just like the rest of them. Senator Long. They come in and complain that their compen- sation is inadequate ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1105 •Senator Long. So they have learned how to complain? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. It appears, then, that they are making some prog- ress? Mr. Mills. If complaining means progress, they are progressing. The Chairman. It has been repeatedly stated here, as it was at McAlester, that of all the Indians in this country they were abso- lutely the most incompetent. Witness after witness has declared that they were utterly unlit to transact the most simple matter of busi- ness. What have you to say to that ? Mr. Mills. I will say this, as a matter of fact and to all appear- ance, the Mississippi Choctaws are not as far advanced as the native Choctaws andChickasaws, and I do not believe they are capable of taking care of themselves and their worldly interests. I believe, too, that more advantage has been taken of them than of any of the others. The Chairman. What opportunities have you had for personal observation and association through the nations generally with the Indians living in the outside districts — that is, outside of the towns and in the more remote districts ? Have you been thrown closely in contact with them ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I have for the past three years. The Chairman. What character has that observation been? That is, has it been pretty near a daily observation of them and contact with them? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; daily, practically The Chairman. From your observation, I want you to give the committee, if you will, your ideas as to this restriction proposition as applied to all classes of Indians. What I want to ascertam particu- larly is your idea as to whether the present laws are adequate and proper, and whether they should be changed, and if so, in what par- ticular should they be changed ? Mr. Mills. My opinion is, that as applied to the intermarried whites, the restrictions should be removed absolutely as to both their surplus and homesteads. I believe that that should be an absolute unqualified removal. The Chairman. As applied to the intermarried whites, you believe the restrictions should be removed without qualification? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That would be to put him on the same basis as the citizen of any State as regards his ability to manage and handle and dispose of all his property as he sees fit ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; absolutely that way. There is no reason that I have ever been able to see why that should not be done. The Chairman. How should it be, do you think, as to the other classes of Indians? Mr. Mills. As to the mixed bloods, I believe that, as appHed to their surolus, the restrictions ought to be removed. As to the home- steads of^the mixed bloods and the surplus of the full bloods, I believe the restrictions should be removed only after an inquiry into their competency has been made by some tribunal of adequate jurisdic- tion. I mean by that the restrictions, if removed at all, should be done under governmental supervision or by some tribunal. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 71 1106 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBBS. The Chairman. You mean that as to the homesteads of the mixed bloods, removal under conditions should apply ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And I believe you stated that, as to the surplus of the mixed bloods, the restrictions should be removed without any examination as to competency? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then you would change the law so that, under proper supervison or upon a proper showing as to the competency of the mixed blood, the restrictions might be removed on his Jhomestead if he appeared to be capable of attending to his own business affairs ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. . The Chairman. You believe the law should be changed in that respect ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And I understood you to say, did I not, that after observation of the full-blood Indians you have arrived at the con- clusion that the restrictions ought to be removed from their surplus in like manner as the restrictions would be removed from the home- steads of the mixed bloods ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, in regard to the homestead of the full bloods, what is your judgment as to what should be done with them? Mr. Mills. I believe that the restrictions should remain as they are — on the homesteads of the full bloods. I do not believe the restrictions should be removed from them at all. I believe, however, that the restrictions as to leasing them, with the exception of 40 acres or so, should be removed or modified so that they could lease all of their homesteads, with the exception of 40 acres. I would not remove the restrictions from the sale of the homestead or its alienation; let that remain so that the full blood, in the case of reverses or anything of that sort, would have at least one place where he could go and remain without danger of being evicted. I think that the operation of the Curtis bill, in a good many cases, works a great hardship on these full bloods, for in many instances the whole of the homestead is lying there idle and unproductive, and they can not lease it and will not work it themselves. I think if it were leased, all but the 40 acres, it would help the community by bringing more people into it, and be a gain all around, for the Indian would get something out of it, whereas he gets nothing now; and I think that 40 acres is about all that the Indian will need; it is more, I am satisfied, than he will work, and if he does work it, it is plenty. Forty acres, if well worked, will provide ample employment for a man. Senator Long. Let me see if I imderstand you, as to the surplus of the mixed blood. You think the restrictions on the alienation of that should be removed unconditionally ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Tell us what, according to your observation and experience, has been the effect of the removal of the restrictions, from the mixed bloods in the cases where it has been removed on application to the Department through the Secretary's office. Just go ahead and tell us how it has worked. Mr. Mills. Please state that question again. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1107 Senator Long. For some time it has been possible for a mixed blood upon application and proper showing to have his restrictions removed through the office of the Secretary of the Interior? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Tell us what, according to your observation, has been the effect of the removal of these restrictions on the mixed bloods. Mr. Mills. In many cases it has been good, and in some cases it has been bad, very bad. Senator Long. "Wny ? Mr. Mills. In those cases where it has had a bad result, they have disposed of their lands for less than they should hav* got for them, in my opinion, and have squandered the money. When they were examined they have stated that the land was worth so much, and in many instances they have turned right around and sold it for less, much less. In other cases the result has been good. Senator Long. In many instances who has been the purchaser of the land after the restrictions have been removed from these mixed bloods? To be plain with you I will ask you if the grafter has not been the fellow that purchased the land as soon as the restrictions were removed? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; in many instances that is so. In other words, most of these lands upon which restrictions have been re- moved have been taken by real estate agents; I will not call them "grafters." Senator Clark. The people designate these gentlemen who get these, lands as "grafters," do they not? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. They have generally known all about it, and been right there on the ground and taken the lands? Mr. Mills. Yes; and they generally act in two capacities — they act for themselves or as agents for somebody else. Senator Long. But they work in one capacity for themselves all the time ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. They always do that, work for themselves first, last, and at all intervening times ? Mr. Mills. If any strangers come in here and want a piece of land, they go to the real estate agent, the same as people do anywhere else. The man states his wants, and the real estate agent can only find that class of stuff for them. Senator Long. Are real estate men, the ones who deal m farm lands, generally designated as "grafters" all through this country? Mr. Mills. Yes; that is the appellation that is often used m speak- ing of them, I am sorry to say. Senator Long. It is too often used? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Long. What do you mean by that ? Mr. Mills. That the man is more of a real estate agent than any- thing else. Senator Long. You mean that that is a misnomer i Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. „ . , ^ o Senator Long. That they are not all grafters is what you mean^ Mr. Mills. They are not all grafters. 1108 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Long. But there are some among them to whom the appel- lation rightly applies. You mean that, do you not ? Mr. Mills. Yes. Senator Brandegee. About the only land that can be purchased in this country is from them? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Bkandegee. If a man wants to purchase a piece of farm land it is pretty nearly a fact that he will have to go to them for it ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I think that is so. Senator Bkandegee. As matter of fact, do you not come pretty near knowing that is so ? Mr. Mills. I say that is practically so. Senator Brandegee. He would have a hard time finding it else- where, would he not ? Mr. Mills. I think so. Senator Brandegee. They keep a close lookout after the business and do not let much land get away from them ? Mr. Mills. No, sir; they have most of it, I believe. They have their agents running around all the time keeping track of things; and strangers coming here from Kansas or anywhere else to get land, if they get it, are practically forced into that market. The Chairman. Mr. Mills has written a letter to the committee, which letter I referred to when I called on Mr. Mills. That letter will be in the record, and it covers practically all of these things regarding which he is being questioned. Senator Brandegee. That being the case, I shall stop right here. The Chairman. Mr. Mills, have you had anything to do with the timber lands in the Indian nations ? Mr. Mills. I have made some investigation in regard to that. The Chairman. Does this system of grafting pi'evail in connection with the transfer of timber lands ? Mr. Mills. A great deal of it has been transferred — that is, it is not the lands that have been transferred; but the timber on the lands has been transferred. The timber and the lands in the pine belt are two different propositions, which are figured up in their relative appraisements to the allottee. You may take land that is figured at 25 or 50 or 75 cents or $1 an acre, or whatever it may be, and that land has so much pine timber on it that is figured at 50 cents a thou- sand by the Government, and that is added to the value of the land by the Government in allotting it, and in getting an allotment there they would get 200 acres, or more, or less, according to the amount of timber that is on it, and if the land is heavily timbered it cuts a great figure. In other words, the value of the timber on it is figured in the value allotted to that particular land. The Chairman. Has most of that timber land been allotted ? Mr. Mills. Yes. The Chairman. Was there any portion of it set aside by the Gov- ernment or reserved ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Or withdrawn from entry or allotment? Mr. Mills. Yes. The Chairman. How large an area of good timber land is there in the eastern part of the Territory? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1109 Mr. Mills. That would be hard for me to say, for it is not in my line. The Dawes Commission knows. I can get that information for you exactly. The Chairman. Have you visited that section ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Have you been over it much? ■ Mr. Mills. Yes; I have traversed it in all directions. '": The Chairman. As to the amount of land out there in the eastern part of the Territory that has been withdrawn or withheld froni allot- ment, does that amoimt to any considerable area ? Mr. Mills. I do not know that I could answer that just right; but there is a way of ascertaining, and I think I can get that informati^jn for you here. The Chairman. I would like to know. We have not been able to get any information on the timber-land question so far. At what price did you say the timber was valued in the adjustment of allotments? Mr. Mills. Fifty cents per thousand. Here is the method in which that matter has been handled heretofore. Here is a bill of sale for the timber made by an allottee, and that is followed by a sec- ond bill of sale covering the price mentioned in the first bill of sale, and here are the abstracts in that particular instance, showiag the general transaction. (The paper referred to is filed.) This shows the method in which it was done. One party bought it for one figure and sold it to another party for another price. The Chairman. The grafter comes in and buys it from the Indian, and then relets it or resells it ? Mr. Mills. Well, they do that also, but they do not follow that practice as much as they do in the case of the agricultural land. The real estate men apply themselves to the agricultural land proposition, and the mill men on the other hand apply themselves to the timber jroposition, as they are interested only in the timber that is on the and. Some real estate men being on the ground first, and seeing the opportunity to make money, bought the land and afterwards sold the timber on it at an increase. The Chairman. What is the character of the timber on that land? Is it white pine, as a rule ? . Mr. Mills. No, sir; there is no white pine down there. It is yellow pine. The soil is not much good. It is sandy and not a great deal of it, and after the timber is taken off it there will not be much left. The Chaekman. It will require expensive logging operations to get it out? , , , Mr Mills. Yes, sir; unless the railroads go through there. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are there any streams there that are fitted for logging? , . ,., ,, Mr. Mills. Well, there is Kiomeche Creek or river, which would serve for some of it, but not much. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is there any sawmills m operation Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; along the Arkansas line there is; they work close to the Arkansas line, or close along the railroad Senator Clark, of Montana. What railroads are they < f. 1110 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Mills. The Kansas City Southern and the "Frisco." Senator Claek, of Montana. Has much of that timber land been allotted? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; a great deal of it. Senator Clakk, of Montana. How much of it has been allotted ? Mx. Mills. Nearly all of it. I understand that nearly all of it has been allotted. I don't know it of my own knowledge, but I have been so informed. That is a matter that is without the scope of the power of the Dawes Commission, only when complaints come in about some thing, and then we investigate them the same way as in the case of a complaint about agricultural land. I will look that information up you desire, for I ought to have it here among thes^ pamphlets I have. Senator Claek, of Montana. That is about the only timber that there is in the Five Nations? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; the only real good timber. Senator Claek, of Montana. And it lies over along the Arkansas line? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Claek, of Montana. And south of the Canadian River? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; and most of it is east of the Kiomeche; some of it is on this side, however. Senator Claek, of Montana. And it is considered first-class timber ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Claek, of Montana. It is not scrub stuff sach as is around here? Mr. Mills. No, sir; it is all first-class timber. Senator Claek, of Montana. I suppose you do not know about what the probable yield would be per quarter section? Or say, per forty acres? Mr. Mills. That would be impossible for me to say. The only way to do that, I imagine, would be to figure up all the acreage in the belt and the total amount of pine timber. You could get at it approximately ia that way. Senator Claek, of Montana. Has it been proved by the Govern- ment? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. Senator Claek, of Montana. Then they know about that in the Interior Department ? Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. That is a question — the quantity of timber on the land — is a question that enters largely into the area of the allotments when they make them there. The amount of timber on the land cuts a big figure. Senator Clark, of Montana. That is all, Mr. Mills. The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Mills, for the information you have given us. Mr. Mills. I will send you a copy of the report which I have just completed. I haven't it here, but I will send you a copy of it later on. Senator Clark, of Montana. I would suggest that you furnish us with any papers which you think would interest us or aid us in our investigations. We would keep them safely and return them to you. The Chairman. I think he has them all here, except an official communication, which he will leave with the stenographer later on. Senator Long. I would like to ask some questions of Mr. Cobb — the gentleman who was before us a little while ago. FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. HH STATEMENT OF MR. GUY P. COBB. The Chairman (to Mr. Cobb). Senator Long here has stated that he would lilce to ask yoa sonae questions, Mr. Cobb. Mr. Cobb. I shall be very happy to answer any questions the Sena- tor chooses to ask me. Senator Long. Mr. Cobb, you interrupted the witness, Mr. Mills a while ago ' Mr. Cobb. I had been informed that you gentlemen desired to hear from me, and I came at once, and as soon as I got here I announced my presence. That was the only purpose of the interruption. It was not with the purpose of interrupting him, I assure you. Senator Long. That is all right, Mr. Cobb. If it is perfectly agree- able to you, I desire to ask you some questions, which you are at per- fect liberty to answer or not, as you see fit. Mr. Cobb. It is perfectly agreeable to me. Senator Long. You are willing to be questioned? Mr. Cobb. I am. Senator Long. What is your business here, Mr. Cobb ? Mr. Cobb. I practice law some, and speculate in real estate some. Senator Long. Do you speculate in farm lands ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. So you are engaged to some extent in the business which has been denominated here as that of a ' 'grafter?" Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. I think that, in justice to yourself and the com- mittee, it would be a good thing if you were to explain to the com- mittee some of the methods which you pursue in following your busi- ness of dealing in farm lands, or speculating in them. Mr. Cobb. How I do business? Senator Long. Yes; the methods you pursue in carrying on your business. Mr. Cobb. It would take a long time to explain all the various branches of my business. Senator Long. You can proceed and explain it briefly. If the committee desire specific information, they will ask questions. Mr. Cobb. The fixst thing I would like to explain is the situation of the average new born full blood. The father comes ov6r here and wants a piece of land. He has received a notice from the Commission that he will be arbitrarily allotted unless he voluntarily selects a piece of land within a certain time, and he does not know how or where to get it — so he comes over here to get it. As I said, he wants a piece of land and he does not know how or where to get it. He has not any money to go out and pay his expenses while he is finding it. A full blood never has any money, and he will walk a hundred miles because he has not the money to pay his fare, and he is in the fix where necessity compels him to enter the land, for if he does not he knows that the Commission will do it for him, and he comes to me to tell him where there is land to allot. He has children in the same way — they have not been allotted, and he has received notice for them, too, that they will be arbitrarily allotted. He is an ignorant man. He does not know anything. He is poor, ignorant, and illiterate, and does not know one single step in the process. He does not know how to act for himself, to say nothing of his children. They have to 1112 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. have a guardian. He is told that either he or some guardian has to act for the minors. Now, if you or I were asked to act as guardian for the estate of such a minor, we would probably get from $6 to $10 or $11 a year for it, which is not enough to pay anyone for touch- ing it. No man can afford to be guardian unless he has several estates, enough to make it reasonably remunerative, or to pay him something for his time and trouble. That is what the law requires here and, when that Indian comes to me, the result is that I have to go to a professional guardian, and by that I mean a man who handles a large number of cases, and makes a regular business of being a guardian for Indian minors. Senator Long. Wherein is the compensation that comes to a- professional guardian ? Mr. Cobb. He does not get much in any one case, but if he can handle 300 or 400 cases he will make a fair salary. Senator Long. You use the word "salary?" Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; a fair living. It is not exactly a salary but it amounts, practically, to the same thing. Senator Long. It is the same thing as a salary? Mi. Cobb. Yes; what a man makes is the same thing as a salary, I take it. Senator Long. Perhaps you are right. This guardian leases this land out to another man? Mr. Cobb. Yes; frequently he does. Senator Long. Is the guardian a partner with the man to whom he makes the leases ? Mr. Cobb. Not to my knowledge. I would go to the court — ^l usually go to the clerk of the coiu-t and ask him who he will appoint and he designates him and the court appoints him and approves him. I do not care who the guardian is, all I want is a guardian. Senator Long. Well, proceed. Mr. Cobb. If I may make a suggestion, I would a little rather you would ask questions. I want to make a suggestion, however. Senator Long. What is it ? Mr. Cobb. Sixty per cent of the land in the Chpctaw and Chick- asaw country is gomg to pass out of their possession under a dead title — I mean the full blood, the mixed blood, and intermarried Indians — and the minor mixed-blood land is coming onto the mar- ket through the dead-claim title. Senator Long. What do you mean by that ? Mr. Cobb. Through the heirs of a deceased Indian. That is the only way that the full-blood land can be sold. Senator Long. You mean in time it will go through that process? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; now the method you have provided for the sale of that land requires that the heirs make application to the Indian agent, and then it is advertised for sixty days and sold under the sealed-bid system. It is an absolute absurdity to expect any real home seeker or any actual investor for a home to come in and try to buy the fee of that land under the system of sealed bids, where they have to wait about ninety days before they will know whether they are going to get it or not, and then they may not get it at all. It is an absurdity to expect that men will pay out the money to come here to do that and lie around "waiting for something to turn up" that may never turn up at all. I tell you, gentlemen, that just as FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1113 long as you keep that system in existence, for just so long will the fee to every acre of that land go through a "grafter." It will all be filtered, every bit of it, through the "grafters," as we are called. Senator Long. Why is that? Is it because he is the only man who can afford to wait to see the result of the sealed-bid system? Is that what you mean ? Mr. Cobb. Why, certainly. It is perfectly manifest that no one else will wait. The Chairman. How long is it after the ninety days when he knows he has got the land under the sealed-bid he put in, before he will know whether his bid was or will be approved ? Mr. Cobb. In ninety days he knows whether he is going to get it or not, but you know that no family is going to come here and wait ninety days to find out whether or not their bid will be accepted. No family will do that, for they can not afford it. They would have to put up 20 per cent during the interim, and then have to face the cnance of having all the bids turned down. I just want to remark that the grafter is here and is going to stay here; he has no intention of leaving as long as the conditions which Congress has created down in this country conduce to his interests. He is here and he is working legitimately and on a busi- ness basis, at least, it is business with him. I have heard no one accuse the so-called " grafters " of doing things any other way than on a business basis — a basis that makes him money, just the same as every other man on earth tries to do business — to make money. If the so-called "grafter" is such a bad fellow, why do not these people who criticise him take him and put him where he will wear stripes, for if half that is told of him is true, that is what he ought to be wearing. I suppose I am one of the "grafters." What if I am? What are they going to do about it? I guess if you go out on the street, you will find that I have as good a reputation for honesty and square dealing and living up to my contracts as any man in Ardmore or anywhere else. People keep coming to me and wanting me to do business for them and with them. The Chairman. I am sure that the reference to "grafter," made by my colleague was not meant as a pleasantry. Mr. Cobb. I am not accepting it as a pleasantry. I am telling you facts. The Chairman. We have had som# testimony heretofore, that under the bid-sealed proposition it works in the first place to keep out the actual farmer — the man who wants to own a farm and reside on it—from the fact that the man that comes here to get a farm comes for that purpose alone and he can not afford to wait the slow proc- ess of closing a sale by the sealed bid process, while the real-estate dealer is here all the year round, and has business here all the time — his operations are being carried on from month to month, and ninety days makes no difference to him one way or the other— it makes no alterations in his plans. . t, • ■ i Mr. Cobb. Not a bit. He does not care for time. Price is the only thing that counts with him. If he can get it at his price, he wants it If he can not, he does not want it. He generally gets it at his price, too. All the use he has for it is to get it at a_ price so low that he can add something to it and sell it again. He is on the make all the time. 1114 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. Senator Clakk, of Montana. Is any considerable amount of the land sold that way — by advertising? Mr. Cobb. No, sir; I do not think there has been a single sale made that way. The Chairman. (To Inspector Wright.) The sales in the Creek Nation are made under the sealed-bid plan, are they not ? Inspector Weight. Yes, sir; under the act of 1904. Mr. Cobb. Has there been any dead land sold in the Choctaw or Chickasaw nations under the sealed bids? Ins|iector Weight. No; they have just been advertised for the first time in the last two weeks. Mr. Cobb. I thought there had not been any sales. Inspector Weight. No; it has taken time. It has been a very difficult matter for the agent to ascertain who the heirs were for these claims. The Chaieman. I would like some information in regard to the matter of what has been done in the way of leasing lands from Indians. Mr. Cobb. I will give you a fair statement The Chaieman. When was that? Mr. Cobb. That was in 1903. I find the farmers that you have here to-night complaining about not doing business with the Indians direct, under what they call an ' 'improvement contract," under the terms of which they put such improvements on the land as are necessary or satisfactory to the farmer for the use of the land and they get a con- tract for ten or twelve years The Chaieman. Without the payment of rent ? Mr. Cobb. Yes; without the payment of a single cent of rent. That is the kind of deals they would like to make with the Indians — the kind of a plan they used to have. The Chaieman. Who was to determine the value of the improve- ments that would be put on there ? Mr. Cobb. The farmer. The Chaieman. The lessee? Mr. Cobb. Yes; the lessee, for they were to be such improvements as were necessary to the lessee. The Chaieman. That was on the allotted land? Mr. Cobb. No, sir; there were no allotments then. That was when I first came here, and I came here when this land was first opened; and incidental to this, I will say that my business has been investi- gated ^three or four times by the Government, and passed muster each time. I went out and bought improvements from the actual ovraers of the improvements and paid for them in cash. In some cases I paid as much, in spot cash, as $2,000 for the improvements. Senator Claek, of Montana. Improvements that had been made on the property by the lessee from the Indian? Mr. Cobb. No, sir; improvements that were owned by the Indian himself here in this Chickasaw country. I bought up a lot of these improvements pertaining to this land ia the Chickasaw country, and then I sent my men up into the Choctaw country and brought full- blood Choctaws here who filed on that land, and I gave them the improvements on that land at an average of about $50 an acre in cash. Senator Claek, of Montana. You sold the improvements to them? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. And took a lease back on the land? FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. 1115 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. You took a lease back on the land from, the allottee ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. For five years ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Then what did you do? Mr. Cobb. I leased it — ubleased it. Senator Long. To a farmer ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Mr. Carter stated here that he could not get a lease for a longer time than one year. I will say this, that 80 per cent of my land is leased for the full term of five years to some farmer. Senator Long. How much land have you? Mr. Cobb. I do not know exactly. Senator Long. About how much, approximately? Mr. Cobb. Maybe 60,000 acres. Senator Long. About 60,000 acres? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; I will not say exactly. Perhaps I have that much. Senator Long. Well, proceed. Mr_. Cobb. My expense account shows that I expended $19,000 in bringing the Indians here to show them land, and I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that every single Indian I dealt with I benefited, and will leave him far better off in the end than he would be if he never had any dealings with me. The facts are that the full blood every time will have to take an arbitrary allotment unless some one will finance him and pilot hira to one. He would be arbitrarily allotted on land that he had never seen and probably would never see, and it would not have any improvements on it, and he could not do a thing with it. No one would pay him anything for the use of it,, and he is not allowed to sell it, so of what use is it to him ? I know as well as I know that I am standing here that every full blood that has had dealings with me has been benefited. He would get a piece of land that was appraised by some politicians and not by farmers, and no one could tell what he would get; for the appraisal of these lands varies wonderfully in difl^erent localities. That appraisal is a fearful and wonderful thing. It is something that is so enlightening and helps a man so in picking lands. The whole thing boils itself down to this, that it would be a physical impossibility for the grafter to make $1 out of the Indian unless he gave him a good allotment. You can not make anything out of poor land down here. The Chairman. Is that because you can not lease it ? Mr. Cobb. No, sir; you can not get any revenue from a thing that is not worth the money. Senator Long. So your object was to help the Indian? Mr. Cobb. I have not stated it that way. Senator Long. Well, I will state it this way, your objeot was to help the Indian and at the same time help yourself? Mr. Cobb. Certainly. Senator Long. Which were you the most solicitous to help, your- self or the Indian? Mr. Cobb. Myself. ,. . , ■ u u i* * u ^u Senator Long. Your solicitude was more in behalf of yourself than the Indian? 1116 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Cobb. Certainly. I am not a philanthropist; I was helping myself, but in this case it happened that in order to help myself I had to help the Indian. Senator Long. When you made the lease with the Indian, you gave him how much; or did you say? Mr. Cobb. An average of $50. Senator Long. An average of about $50 a year? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. On the average, how much would you get for these different tracts from the farmers ? Mr. Cobb. A httle better than $100. Senator Long. Considerably more than that, was it not? . Mr. Cobb. No, sir; not very much. Senator Long. Well, you got more than that? ' Mr. Cobb. I said I did. The average is just a little over $100 each. I have about fifteen or twenty allotments now that I would like to rent for $100 each a year. If yoa know anyone that wants them, he can have the whole bunch for that figure, $100 each. The Chairman. You still have some that are not rented? Mr. Cobb. Five Indians applied to me to let me have their land, and I have refused them. There is not a day in the year that some of them do not come to me and want me to get land for them and I can not do it. They want their land and they want me to get it for them. The Chairman. They want allotments ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; and they want me to select the allotments for them. The Chairman. Then there are some of them that have not allot- ments yet ? Mr. Cobb. Yes; lots of them. There is a Ipt of the "new borns" all the time looking aroand for it. The Chairman. From your knowledge of the business, let me ask whether in making these leases it is the practice to have an agreement for a renewal of the lease at its termination or at any time before its termination — that is, to agree to surrender the lease, say, after it has run a year or so, and make a new lease for five years ? Mr. Cobb. No, sir. The Chairman. Is it the practice when the lease is made, or at any time before its expiration, to make a contract or agreement with the Indian owner — an oral or written agreement — that he will sell the land to you at the end of the lease ? Mr. Cobb. The law specifically states that such an agreement invalidates the lease. The Chairman. Well, you do not follow that practice? Mr. Cobb. I hope I know better than to fly in the face of the law like that. The Chairman. At Muskogee we had the testimony of one man who stated that that was the very thing he did, because, he said, he knew the courts would invalidate the law and declare it unconsti- stitutional ? Mr. Cobb. My judgment is that anyone who was at all careful and law-abiding would not do it. All I can say is that as far as I am individually concerned I have never done it. The Chairman. How is it as to the others in that business here ? FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1117 Mr. Cobb. My judgment is that it has never been done here at all to any extent. If it has ever been done here I don't know of it. Senator Long. So "grafting" here is somewhat different from what it is in the Cherokee and Creek nations ? They play the game by a different rule or system here ? Mr Cobb. I expect they do. The Chaieman. Perhaps I ought in justice to Mr. Bradley to say that he only had reference to the provision of the law passed last year increasing the time for restrictions to twenty-five years, he taking the ground that Congress had no authority to make that increase, for he said that he had taken the best legal counsel obtainable on that propo- sition, and was informed that the courts would declare it unconsti- tutional, therefore he felt perfectly safe in taking the leases and the deeds, notwithstanding the fact that they were in apparent viola- tion of the law. I will do that measure of justice to Mr. Bradley, for he did not seek to conceal anything, but came out and made the statement with the most entire frankness. , Mr. Cobb. In reference to that, I would like to state an instance, as showing the class of Indians that appear in the r61e of full bloods and are on the rolls as full bloods, so they appear in a double r61e. I was an attorney in a citizenship case — the case of Esau Wolf, who should have been enrolled in 1896, and, incidentally, is enrolled as a full blood, which precluded at the very outset his power to convey any fee. Now, the roll shows that he is a full blood, that his mother is an intermarried Indian and his father is a white, yet he is on the roll as a full blood, and although he is at most a half blood, yet because the roll says he is a full blood, a full blood he will have to be regardless of the facts, because the act of April, 1906, says that the roll shall be conclusive on that point, or shall be conclusive evidence as to blood. I just mention that as an instance, and I will tell you that it is not a single case. I know of scores of people who are on the rolls as full bloods who are lighter complected than I am, and I am not veryi dark. The Chairman. You mean that they are on the rolls as full bloods, notwithstanding the fact that they are not full bloods'? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; on the rolls as full bloods notwithstanding the fact that they are not more than one-sixteenth or one-thirty-second part Indian. There are literally hundreds of them. That roll as showing the blood of the citizens is worse than a farce — it is a parody on the facts. The Chairman. And that by being placed on the rolls as full bloods, they become in law full bloods, regardless of the actual physical facts, for they come within the legal definition of a "full blood" as defined by the statute ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is what you mean? '\j[f r^oTiTt "Y'gs sir Senator Brandegee. Do you operate through a company? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. . . Senator Brandegee. Is your company an mcorporation « Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. What is the name ot it i Mr Cobb. The Tribal Development Company. 1118 FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Senator Brandegee. Is most of the business done here through land companies, or are there some large individual operators ? Mr. Cobb. Most of it, I should say, is done by individuals or part- nerships. Senator Long. With your experience here among the Indians, what would you say as to the ability or compentency of the average full blood Indians to transact or conduct his own business ? Mr. Cobb. There are a great many people on the roll as full bloods that are as competent to handle their business, such as it is, as you or I are able to transact our business; and on the other hand there are a great many others there that are absolutely incompetent. Senator Long. How is it as to the Mississippi Choctaws ? , Mr. Cobb. As to the Mississippi Choctaws, I do not know much more about them than you do. I have avoided them as much as I could, and I have not had any business relations with them at all. They are a little too low down in the scale for me. Senator Long. Why have you avoided him ? Mr. Cobb. Well, as a matter of fact, when the Mississippi Chocta,w came here he was a little more expensive than the native Indians were. [Laughter.] Senator Long. He was more expensive ? Mr. Cobb. Yes; that slipped out, but it about describes it. Senator Long. What do you mean by being more "expensive?" Mr. Cobb. The railroad fare from Mississippi to this place was more than it was from the Choctaw Nation. [Laughter.] The Chairman. When these Mississippi Choctaws were brought here, were they all brought here af the expense of the real estate man or men who were dealing in these allotments ? Mr. Cobb. I only know what I heard about it, and I have heard that the majority of them were brought here by speculators. The Chairman. Your understanding and the understanding in this country is that they were brought here m that way ? _ Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; I miderstand that a carload of them at a time were brought in here by speculators — that they were just loaded in cars like cattle or hogs and brought here. The Chairman. Are there any companies in this town that dealt in Mississippi Choctaws ? Mr. Cobb. There are some. The Chairman. And you think they have been an expensive investment ? Mr. Cobb. I am inclined to think they have been. At least I think the Mississippi Choctaws have been a bad investment for every- body who had anything to do with them. Senator Clark, of Montana. And a bad investment for the coun- try too, were they not ? _ Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; I think they have been a mighty bad acqui- sition for the country as well as for the men that brought them here. Senator Clark, of Montana. You think the country would be better off without them ? Mr. Cobb. Decidedly I do. I do not want to say just what I think about them. Senator Clark, of Montana. You said that they were a bad acqui- FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1119 sition, and I incline to think that is j)robably correct; at any rate, we have heard enough about them to give us that impression. Senator Bkandegee. You have bought some land outright when the restrictions have been removed, have you not ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Did you pay the sellers entirely in cash, or did you give them notes for a part of the consideration? Mr. Cobb. Cash. Senator Bkandegee. You always paid them in cash? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; always. There is not a note of mine out- standing for anything I ever bought from an Indian; never was. Senator Bkandegee. Do you mean by that that you have always paid in cash? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. I found I had to. Nothing else would go with these Indians. Senator Bkandegee. Did you pay for them all in cash or on the installment plan? Mr. Cobb. I paid them all at once. Senator Brandegee. And ended the transaction? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; right there and then. Senator Brandegee. If the restrictions were removed, would the Indians get any better price for their land ? Mr. Cobb. Do you really want my opinion on that? Senator Brandegee. Certainly, if you choose to let us have it. Mr. Cobb. I have no objections. Senator Brandegee. Then please state whether, if the restric- tions were removed, the Indians would get any better price for their land. Mr. Cobb. Well, now, if you would look the condition squarely in the face Senator Bkandegee. That is what we are trying to do, and we are trying to get information from all sorts and conditions of people, believing that in the multiplicity of advice and opinion we receive, we may somewhere find the truth. Mr. Cobb. Well, sir, I will tell you. The way it is now, the man that deals with the Indian over in the Choctaw Nation, and the grafter that he rents his land to — they are the only two that bid on his land — and as far as that goes they are both grafters. Now, if you throw the bars down and open it all wide, so that the outside world can come in here and bid on this land and know that if it can buy it, it will get a good title, there will be fifty different people to bid on every allotment that is put on the market. As it is now there is nobody that can bid on it but the grafter, for he is a speculator, and he is willing to take his chances on it, and the result is there is no competition and you can not expect anything to sell well without competition. Before you can expect these people to get a fair price for their land you must make a market for what they have to sell, and there will not be any trouble about it if you fix things so that the outside world can come down here and know that they will be able to buy the thing they want, which is land. , • • Senator Brandegee. What do you say in regard to its brmgmg better prices ? Mr. Cobb. I think I have answered it. 1120 FIVE CIVILIZED TBIBES. Senator Beandegee. Perhaps you did, but, if so, I was obtuse enough not to get it. Mr. Cobb. I know the Indian would get a great deal better price. Senator Beandegee. Because this matter of competition would be provided, and he would be able to give a better title ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. If the outside world knew that it could come down here and go out and make its own bargain with the Indians without any restrictions, they would come down here by the thou- sands, and every Indian, if he wanted to sell his land, would have twenty, yes, I believe, fifty people, to bid on that land where he has no one now but the "grafter." All the world wants to know is that it will have the privilege of maldng its own bargain in its own way, and that if it buys any of this land it will in every instance get a good title. That is all that the world asks. As it is now he has omy two to sell to, and these two do not always want it, and if they do want it they do not pay him any more than they have to for it. Senator Beandegee. And very often these two pool their issues? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; very often they compromise and split the profit. PLaughter.] Senator Long. Let me ask you a question or two here: What do you think of the competency of the mixed blood or his ability to take care of himself ia a business transaction ? Mr. Cobb. I believe that the mixed bloods, as a class, will compare very favorably with the "rdinsir^iJiilioring classes among the white people in any community tMElawiN- ma^y go into. They may not be the most brilliant businessfe^i-m in the world, but neither are the ordinary white laboring classes brilliant business men. If they were, they would not be laborers long. I want to say this, though, that there are people in this country who are mixed bloods — I will say, too, that what I am gomg to say applies to the full bloods as well as the mixed bloods — if you take these people and place on them all the restrictions you please or can put on them, and keep everyone of them there for fifty years; if you take care of him for fifty years (if he lives that long) he will be no more fitted to take care of his business at the end of the fifty years than he is now. Senator Clark, of Montana. That assumes that his restrictions are continued ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Claek, of Montana. What do you think of his chances if his restrictions are removed? What would become of him then? Mr. Cobb. Some of them will go to the wall, Senator. Senator Claek, of Montana. What condition would that be? What would his status be then ? Mr. Cobb. His status would be the same as the status of every man in this free country ought to be. His status would be the status of everybody outside of this Territory. His status would be that he would find his own level, just as you found yours and I find mine. Senator Claek, of Montana. That might be very disastrous to the Indian ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; in many instances it would be. He would get rid of his surplus in a short time, but he would have his home- stead, and that, while it would not do much for a man of that char- acter, stUl it would have the effect of keeping him from becoming FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. 1121 a ctarge on the community. As far as his homestead is concerned, let him keep it. It will not do him any good. Let him have it any- way. It is more than he will need, but with or without it you can depend on the fact that he will have to find his level some day. My opinion is that he might just as well find it now as in fifty years from now, for until he does it his presence, enjoying these special favors and exemptions, will be a terrihle drag on this country. Senator Long. Then you believe that all the restrictions ought to be removed ? Mr. Cobb. I have not said that. Senator Long. Well, what do you think about it ? Mr. Cobb. I think it would be the best thing for the country. Senator Long. How would it be on the Indian ? Mr. Cobb. It would not make much difference to him. If he keeps his land it will not do him any good, and if he does not keep it it will be all the better for the country. Senator Long. Why? Mr. Cobb. Because it could be taxed, and that is what we want here — property that can be taxed. Remember I have not asked you to remove his restrictions. Senator Long. You probably think that you will be able to take care of yourself, in any event ? Mr. Cobb. I have not any doubt on that point. Senator Long. On what point have you not any doubt ? Mr. Cobb. About my ability to take care of myself. Senator Long. You evidently think you have ? Mr. Cobb. I have. Senator Long. Have you secured the removal of the restrictions from many Indians ? Mr. Cobb. Some. Senator Long. Many? Mr. Cobb. Quite a few. Senator Long. How many; about? Mr. Cobb. From 50 to 60. Senator Long. In those instances where you secured the removal of the restrictions, did you purchase the land ? Mr. Cobb. Only in about three of them. Senator Long. Generally speaking, do the Indians, when they get their restrictions removed, sell their land to the man that has it leased from them? Mr. Cobb. No, sir. Senator Long. Do they sell at all ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Generally, or all of them? Mr. Cobb. Every time. Senator Long. You say that every Indian from whom the restric- tions are removed sells his land ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; every last one of them. Senator Long. So in every instance they have sold ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. , • t. Senator Long. Then their purpose m having the restrictions removed was to make an immediate sale ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. S. Rep. 5013, 59-2, pt 1 72 1122 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. Did they sell their land in some instances to strangers ? Mr. Cobb. I could not say as to that. Senator Long. Or did they sell mostly to the merchants? Mr. Cobb. I am under the impression that they mostly sold to the merchants with whom they traded. That was the way it was in the Choctaw Nation. In almost every instance he was the man that employed me to get the restrictions removed. Senator Long. Do you know whether or not, in most instances, when they sold their lands they got a fair or adequate price for them? Mr. Cobb. Each time they got more than the land was appraised for, but they did not get as much for it as I could have got if I had been selling it. Senator Long. If you had been employed to sell it you could have sold it for more than the Indians got for it when they sold it to the merchant with whom they traded ? Mr. Cobb. Yes. I know that the man that bought it made a profit in every case. Senator Clark, of Montana. He did make a profit in" every instance ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Are the Indians generally faithful to their verbal obligations? Mr. Cobb. No, sir. Senator Long. But they will not modify a contract that is made ? Mr. Cobb. No, sir. They would like to ignore it. That is their attitude. I would like to call your attention again to the removal of restrictions. The law specifically provides that where there is a pre- existing contract taken before thirty days of the expiration of the lease the contract is invalid in case of the removal of restrictions. Senator Clark, of Montana. So it is not safe to contract in advance ? Mr. Cobb. No, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is it safe to have, not exactly a con- tract, but an understanding as to what will be done? Mr. Cobb. No, sir ; it is not safe at any time to depend on an under- standing that you iiave with an Indian. Senator Brandegee. Does your company lease some of the land of minors who have had guardians appointed ? Mr. Cobb. I have not taken a new minor's lease since April 26 of this year. Senator Brandegee. But before that time you did some of that kind of business? Mr. Cobb. I had some 87 minors' leases, and I have endeavored to have a United States court guardian appointed iii every instance, and then get a new lease approved by the guardian. Senator Brandegee. On account of the passage of that law? Mr. Cobb. Well, when I first started in the Federal courts wouldn't assume probate jurisdiction, and in every instance I had the guardian appointed — and the guardian was usually the father — in the Indian court and had my lease approved in the Indian court; and as soon as Congress had given the United States jurisdiction, and as soon as the United States courts had displayed an inclination to ignore the Indian courts and their decisions, since that time I have endeavored FlVirrnVILIZED TKIBES, 1123 to have the minors' guardian appointed in every instance by the United States court. Senator Brandegee. Have you been trying to get out of that business ? Mr. Cobb. Well, I am not trying to get into it. I have not taken any new leases. Senator Brandegee. You do business through a corporation? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Brandegee. Is your headquarters here in Ardmore ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. Senator Br'endegee. You say since last April you have not taken any new leases on the allotments of minors t Mr. Cobb. No, sir. Senator Brandegee. Why not? Mr. Cobb. Because it is impossible to pay the Indians $50 or $60 a year and improve the allotments and'make any money out of a five- year lease. Senator Brandegee. Do you have to improve the allotments in order to lease them to a farmer? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; you can not lease them to anyone without improvements. They have to have a house in which to live, and they will not pay anything worth while for land that is not in culti- vation. You can not get more than 15 or 20 cents an acre for the unimproved land for pasturage, and on a 200-acre allotment $50 a year means 25 cents an acre, and as for the unimproved land, to save your life you can not get that for it; so you see you can not lease this land at enough to get your money back unless you first improve it. Senator Brandegee. What do you mean by the term "improve- ments?" Mr. Cobb. Putting a house and well and barn on it and fencing it and putting a certain part of it under cultivation. You have to do that, for your only chance of making anything is out of the land that is under cultivation. That is the only way to do it-to make it pay, and to do that you have to put at least half of it under cultivation. Senator Brandegee. Do you have to put these improvements on the land? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; you have to do it in every case. Senator Brandegee. How is it as to land that already has improve- ments on it ? Mr. Cobb. That does not make any difference. If the improve- ments are on the land, you can bet every time you have to pay for them, so it is just as broad as it is long. I may call your attention to another fact. I have a place over near Comanche, where I have 2,300 acres in cultivation, and there is only one tenant on all that place that has not thrown up his contract, preparatwry to leavmg this country, for the sole and only reason that they are disturbed, mo- lested, and harassed continually. Senator Long. Disturbed, molested, and harassed by whom? Mr. Cobb. By the Department of the Interior. Senator Long. How? In what way? , . „ . Mr. Cobb. By having applications, made for their allotments— tor possession of their allotments. 1124 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. On what grounds ? Mr. Cobb. They are about having a suit filed for the cancellation of the lease on the ground of iuadequacy of consideration. They are about having a United States guardian appointed, and they go out there periodically and demand rent from my tenants and bedevil them around so that all of them except one has thrown up his lease and is going to leave the country. Senator Long. We have heard some considerable evidence in the other places we have been at from the Indians themselves, com- flaining that the present conditions and methods of handling the ndian lands are very disastrous to the interest of the Indians. Mr. Cobb. I think there is a great deal to complain about. I do not think if Congress had set deliberately about fixing things up for trouble they could have gone about it in a better way. Senator Long. And we have, heard complaints here from the farmers or sublessees. Now, what have you to say about the present arrangements and methods, as far as those methods concern the farmers and the Indians ? What I want to get at is -the point of view of the grafter in regard to this ? What do the grafters think about this thing ? Mr. Cobb. Well, assuming that I am a "grafter," I do not think I have any complaint to make. Senator Long. You are pretty well satisfied ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; as long as you legislators keep the conditions unsettled you may depend on it that some one will have to act as "go-between" between the Indian and the farmer, and we people, whom you call "grafters," will continue to do it, just as we have been doiug. Understand me," this is a risky business. It is a risk that few people will assume. This man you call "grafter" is the man that is willing to accept this risk, and you can bet every time he is going to be paid for the risk. Senator Long. I believe that to be the truth. Mr. Cobb. I know it is. Senator Long. • And you are one of those that are taking that risk ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, Sir. Senator Long. And you are being paid for it ? Mr. Cobb. Yes. Senator Long. So, then, all the legislation we have enacted up to to-day has been satisfactory to you ? Mr. Cobb. Answering from the standpoint of a "grafter," I would say "yes." But I would say this, too, that it is not altogether satis- factory to me as a man. There are some things that I look to as superior to my own personal aggrandizement. I may be a "grafter," but at the same time I have a certain personal interest in this country, outside of the mere dollars and cents that I can make out of it, and I am pretty well satisfied that when the time comes when conditions will be settled here on a firm and permanent basis, I shall be able to stand on my own foundation and make a revenue here; and I would like— oh, more probably than anybody here — to see conditions so arranged and settled once for all as that this country could go ahead and take the place that is its true portion; and the only way that can ever be arrived at is to have things so absolutely settled that out- siders can come in here and look abroad over the country and see how fair it is, and know that the time of turmoil and change is past for- FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. 1125 ever, for when that time comes they will come in here and spend their money and buy this land and improve it, and they will not do that until that time comes. I am more than anxious for that time to come, gentlemen, and any thing you can do to hasten it will meet with my hearty sympathy, and you may rest assured that neither I nor my kind will throw one single obstacle in the way of that accomplish- ment. Some people may doubt this, but I assure you and them that I never was more siiicere in anything in all my life than I am in this statement. I am sick and tired of all this turmoil and uncertainty, and I add my appeal to that of the others for you gentlemen to go back to Washington and do something in this matter. Senator Long. You mean that the people you want to come into this country are the people who want to secure the title to their land before they will come here ? Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir; that is the kind of people we want here — people who want to own their own homes. Not the people who are con- tented to rent forever, but people who want to own their own homes, for they are the only people that are worthy of this country. They are the mainstay of any land, and have always been the pride and boast of America; for the man is poor and craven who is not moved by the desire to own the home that shelters himself and his family. AH. the others are mere, birds of passage, whose brief presence here has left no impress save that of evil. So you will pardon me, gentlemen, if I say again that the first and only requisite is to have a settled con- dition of land titles. First provide the land for the home seekers and then have such g, title that he will know when he buys a piece of land that he is getting the best title in all this world; and if you wiU do that, gentlemen, you need have no fears as to the future of this coun- try. It will work out its own salvation without assistance from any- one, and in this process the Indians will find their own level, which they wiU do despite all the legislation you have ever enacted or will enact. All you can do is to hurry along the coiu-se of events, but as to retarding them permanently, you might as well try to dam the course of the Mississippi. That is all I have to say, gentlemen, save the statement that I wish to make about the Department. What we want and what the people want is a safe and stable, unchanging rule here, such as there is in the States, and not something that is m vogue to-day, and, at the whim of some Secretary of the Interior, is changed to something else next month. What we want is an absolutely fixed certainty about things. That is aU, gentlemen. The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, on behalf of the committee I desire to express our thanks for the singularly frank manner in which you have expressed yourself. We have been more than pleased with your presentation, and desire to so inform you. Mr. Cobb. I have endeavored to tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, without equivocation, and if I have suc- ceeded in impressing you with a sense of the conditions which prevail down here, and the remedy for them, I will 'be amply rewarded. Thank you, gentlemen. The Chairman. The next gentleman who wishes to be heard, I understand, is Mr. C. H. Victor, who desires to present matters from the Indians' standpoint. 1126 FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES. STATEMENT OF MB. C. H. VICTOR. The Chairman. Where do you Hve, Mr. Victor? Mr. Victor. I hve 6 miles southeast of Ardmore. The Chairman. What is your nationality or blood? Mr. Victor. I am a Choctaw by blood. The Chairman. Are you of the full blood? Mr. Victor. No, sir; I am three-quarters. The Chairman. You are three-fourths Indian? . Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. We shall be glad to hear any information you may be able to impart. , Mr. Victor. I have heard some very intelligent men get up here and explain their views, but I have not heard any Indians make any talks here, nor have I heard anyone make an explanation or state- ment that I thought suited the Indians or that fitted the country any better than Mr. Cobb did. I have heard all he said, and I tell you, gentlemen, that he made the best talk that has been made here, and told - you more of the truth than anyone else has. He may be a "grafter," but that is neither here nor there, for if he is one he gave you some awful good advice, and he ought to know about as well as anybody in this country what he is talking about. Mr. Mills also has told you just what the truth is. Both these gentlemen have about told the truth about conditions here. I have not much to say, but I do want to say something about the removal of restrictions. It is a hard subject and has a great many sides to it, but I think on the whole that the thing* that ought to be done and will have to be done if there is not to be a permanent bar interposed to the advancement of this country is to remove the restrictions fi-om the surplus lands of the mixed breeds and the full bloods, and I think it is best to do that for this reason: You can go out here in this country and pick up 100 mixed breeds just as you come to them, and also 100 full bloods, and you will find just as many out of the full bloods who are capable of attending to then business as you will find in the mixed bloods. I am an Indian, and I know what I am talking about from the standpoint of an Indian. I believe I am acquainted with more Indians in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations than any single man in either nation. I believe that there is not another man in these nations who knows as many of the Indians as I do, therefore I feel that I am warranted in assum.- ing that I know something about them. I observe here that it has been a common .thing for everyone who has spoken and has referred to the matter at all, to assume that the Mississippi Choctaws are not as competent to look after their business as _ the native Choctaws, but I say that tmder the same and equal circumstances they are, and under some conditions more so. They came here from Mississippi — were brought here by specula- tors, largely. Down there in Mississippi they had no land, no pro- tection, and no special privileges, and they had to work in order to make any kind of a living, which was something that the Indians up here did not have to do. They had to work land there for a share in the crop, and the people who owned the land furnished them with teams and tools to work with, for half the crop raised. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. liZ/ So they had to work, and it would have been a good thing for the Indians in this Territory if they had always had to work, but that is neither here nor there. The Government lias protected them and fostered them all their lives, and naturally that has not had much of a tendencj^ to impart to them habits of thrift and self- reliance, so I will content myself tty saying that if you were to take the Choctaws from the Choctaw Nation and send them to Mississipjii with the Mississippi Choctaws, and put them to work where they would all stand on an equal footing, the Mississippi Choctaws would not emerge from the comparison discreditably. What I mean to convey, gentlemen, is the idea that if the Mississippi Choctaws had been here as long as the native Choctaws have been and had been subjected to the same influences they would be just about the same, for outside of these considerations I can not see any difference between them. They all look just the same to me. But what is their condition, gentlemen, to-day, compared with what it was when they were first brought to this country? There is a very great improvement. Senator Long. You think that they are rapidly acquiring the ways of this countr}"? Mr. ViOTOE. Yes, sir; very rapidly. Senator Long. They have been here two or three years, have they not? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; a little longer than that — about four years. Senator Long. Do you see any change in them now, compared with what their condition was when they came here ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Much of an improvement? Mr. Victor. A very noticeable improvement. Senator Clark, of Montana. They are mostly farmers, are they not ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; altogether. Not farmers as you understand farming — but farmers. Senator Clark, of Montana. Indian farmers? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do they speak the Choctaw language? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. , ^i • , Senator Clark, of Montana. Do they speak the Choctaw and Chick- asaw language both? Mr. Victor. I can not say that they do. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you speak both the Choctaw and Chickasaw languages? Mr. Victor. I can not really say that I do. The Languages are so similar that I can understand very well anything that is said m Chick- asaw, but I can not say tha,t I can speak the language. . . , , Senator Clark, of Montana. There is a great similarity m the Ian- Mr Victor. Yes, sir; they are the same family and bear a very close resembLnce. I can manage to hold a conversation if I have to, with a Chickasaw as well as a Choctaw. Senator Clark, of Montana. Then the citizens of these two nations can understand each other ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; very well, r.s a rule, -, ^ j j Senator Long. Do the Mississippi Choctaws understand and speak English? 112& FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES. Mr. Victor. No, they do not talk very much English. Senator Long. You may proceed with your statement. Mr. Victor. My reasons for saying that I believed it was beneficial to remove the restrictions from the surplus of the Indians entirely, and that it would be beneficial to the Indians to do so, was based primarily on the fact they get their purchase money. See that they get that. If they get their money, those among them who have energy and "get-up" enough about them will proceed to improve their homesteads, and that will be a benefit to them. Those who when they get their money get drunk and proceed to "blow" them- selves, neither the land nor the money would do them any good in any case, and if an Indian is that kind of a man you can put the restric- tions on him for a hundred years and it will not make him any better. So if the restrictions are kept on the Indians in the hope that such restrictions will act as an educational influence or stimulus the thing is all thrown away — it does not help the Indian and tends just that much to the retardation of the progress of the country. The Chairman. Wherever we have been, when this matter has been discussed, we have heard expressions of belief that the Indians would waste their money if allowed to sell their surplus. We have been told that they would spend it for whisky, would get drunk, and squander their money in other vicious ways. We have been told that some of these leases have been acquired by getting the Indian drunk and then befuddling him out of his land. I want to ask you as to this Territory, where the sale of intoxicating liquors is prohibited by law, or is sup- posed to be prohibited by law, whether it is or is not a fact that liquor can be easily obtained? Mr. Victor. Some intoxicating drinks can be obtained. The Chairman. Easily? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Intoxicants that are under the ban of the law? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; I do not know that whisky can be obtained easily, but I do know that intoxicating drinks can be obtained easily at times. I am perfectly familiar with the way these so- called grafters do their work, for I have seen them engaged in it many a time; but I will say this, that I never in any instance saw a grafter giving an Indian whisky. Of course I am not saying that it has not been done by some grafters who were without a conscience, and there are some of that kind here, there are some men who would take advantage of an Indian in that way, and it is that class of grafters who have worked a hardship on lots of men who are doing a perfectly legitimate business. They have got people who can not discriminate, for they do not have the time to investigate; to con- clude that all real estate men are grafters, because some bad men among them use disreputable methods. There are grafters in this country who have never paid a cent for their improvements, who have just gone and jumped them, and under contracts that would specify the improvements to come to so much — the land at so much and the improvements at so much, as a further consideration — and they would lease them out again that way to farmers who were to pay for the improvements, when as a matter of fact the improve- ments never cost them a cent. In the case of minors, that is a favorite practice of theirs. They get the minor allotted on the land and a guardian appointed for the minor, and then they get a FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1129 lease for five years from that guardian at a nominal rent, and in the lease they get a credit on the amount they contract to pay for these improvements that never cost them a cent, but which they put in at two or three times what they actually are worth even if they had paid for them. In that way they frequently get the land for all these years without costing them anything, and they rent it to farmers at big rents and put the whole thing into their pockets, for they do not have either rent or taxes to pay. The Chairman. These men have brought the whole "grafting" business into disrepute ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know any of these grafters, so called? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; I am familiar with these so-called " grafters," and have some very good friends among them. I will say another thing. I do not think there is a man in this grafting business or in this leasing business, who has got his money back yet. He may get it back, out I am satisfied that not one of them has done it yet. Senator Long. They have done what they did to help the Indian ? Mr._ Victor. No, sir; not at all. They were ambitious and they went into that business because they thought that they were going to make a whole lot of money out of it, and they have been fooled — fliat is all. I do not think they thought of the Indians at all. I have never given them credit for that much humanity. I think the only ones they thought about helping was themselves. They thought that they were going to make more money than they did out of it, and they have failed, and in the final wind up the result has been that it has placed the so-called grafter and the Indian both at a disadvantage. Senator Long. If both of them have failed, who has received the benefit ? You know that there can not be anything without its com- pensations, and there must be some ojie who has been benefited by this mix up somewhere along the line ? Mr. Victor. Take a man who was running an allotment business, and got a little the worst of it, of course, if he got the worst of it, it follows that the Indians must have got the best of it. The kind of Indians these grafters dealt with were the kind that anything that would be done for them would only be temporary. You can not do them any permanent good. ' They took these Choctaw Indians from Mississippi, and when they first came out here they were very igno- rant, although they really were better workers than the native Indians, as I said before; but the grafters would come up in the Choctaw coun- try and get them down here and show them the land, and pay their expenses to the land office to get them to allot it, and in a great many instances when they got them there the land they intended them to file on would be filed on already, and the grafter would have to take them back there again and show them some other land, and then take them back to the land office to file on that, and find that that, too, had already been filed on, and sometimes they would have to make two or. three or four trips, all at the expense of the grafter, and that cost a good deal of money. That is where the grafter got the worst of it, for he would have to get the Indian a good allotment to come out even on the lease, and where the Indian was benefited was in getting a better allotment than he could get in any other way, and they could lease their allotments for from $50 to $75 a year, and that was something, for after five 1130 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. years they would have the allotment with the improvements that the grafter would have to put on it, for he would have to improve it to make anything out of it, unless they were already on it, and he would have to leave them there anyway. I leased my allotment for $75 a year, because I thought that was a very good price for it, for it was not improved. I took up raw land and it had to be improved. Some of the Indians get good allotments, and some of them get sorry allotments. Some get fine surplus allotments and homestead allotments that are worthless. The grafter gets their restrictions removed and buys their surplus, and when they go and hunt up their homestead they find it is rocky, barren ground that is not worth any- thing at all, and then they do not have anything. , I tell you that the worst of the grafters are a hundred times better than these guardians. I will call on Mr. Joe. F. Robinson ^ The Chairman. What is he ? Mr. Victor. He is a wholesale guardian himself, the man that does the business by wholesale — a professional guardian, in other words. There is an Indian named John Sampson that lives near me, and I know the Sampson heirs; there are several of them. That Sampson place is a fine estate — there must be 3,000 or 4,000 acres of land and this man is guardian for all these children. I suppose the rental value of that land is something like $3,000 or $4,000 a year, plenty to keep every heir of the estate in comfort — yes, in luxury, and pay the guardian good fees, and. yet these children are running around in rags and half naked and half starved. Gentlemen, I wisli you could see these children. They live out there in my neighborhood, and I do wish you would see them. It would be an object lesson that would speak more powerfully than any words I can use. It is such a case as that that you have to see before you will understand just what this guardianship business means to this country. The grafter's end of it has some merit, for the grafters do some good things for the Indian, even if they do not do it purposely, but the guardian's end of it has not one thing to redeem it. Senator Clark, of Montana. And you say these children are heirs to a valuable estate ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; a very valuable estate. I am an Indian, but I can take it and get $3,000 or $4,000 a year out of it easily. Senator Clark, of Montana. By working it yourself ? Mr. Victor. No, sir; by renting it out to farmers. Senator Clark, of Montana. How many of these heirs are there 1 Mr. Victor. There must be six or seven of them. Senator Clark, of Montana. The guardian does not pay them any- thing ? Mr. Victor. I do not know. I have seen Sampson several times and asked him if Joe Robinson was paying the children anything and he said no. He said that he had gone to Robinson two or three times for something for the children and Robinson has never given him any- thing. I told him that he would have to get an order of the court for it, but of course he does not know how to go about getting that. Senator Clark, of Montana. Did I understand you to say these were orphan children? Mr. Victor. No, sir; their father and mother are living. Senator Clark, of Montana. And are these children living with their father and mother ? FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1131 Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. This land, that this guardian has in his charge, does it consist of the allotments of these children? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you know whether this land is rented or not ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; it is all rented and the guardian goes around and collects the rents. Senator Clark, of Montana. Do you know what it is rented for? Mr. Victor. The land that is in cultivation is rented for two dollars and a half an acre. Senator Clark, of Montana. How nauch is in cultivation ? Mr. Victor. I do not know exactly, but somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 acres. I imderstand there is that much. There is a very large amount of it in cultivation. It is what is known as the Sampson estate. Senator Clark, of Montana. Did the parents of these children waive their right of guardianship over these children? Mr. Victor. I really do not know anything about that, but I sup- pose they did. I do not know how it was done in this case, but I want to say in a great many of these cases these waivers are obtained by fellows that work for these men — the ones I call "two by four grafters," who run around the country and get the Indians to sign these waivers, for the Indians can not read and these fellows come and tell them it is something else and get them to sign it, and then they will go and turn them into these grafters or these guardians and get $25 or $50 for them. Senator Long. They are working on commission? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Senator Long. And you call them "two by four grafters?" Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Senator Long. Well, have you any remedy to propose for this con- dition? Mr. Victor. I do not see any remedy, only to cut it out entirely. Senator Long. Cut what out entirely? Mr. Victor. Cut out this guardianship business, where their father or mother is living; that is the only remedy that I can see. The parents may not be able to do as well as might be done, but they can not do any worse than these guardians, almost without exception, do. If the guardianship were cut out entirely these Indians would get far more out of the land than they are now getting. You heard some one say here that these guardians leased land at an average of $75 to an allotment. We know that it costs $10 in each case for the clerk's fee, and then the bonding company furnishes the bond, and that is for $2,000, and that bond, we know, costs just 50 cents a year for each $100, so that makes another $10, and then you pile the other expenses on top of that, and there is precious little left. Senator Long. What does the guardian get for his services ? What is he allowed by the court ? _ ■, ■ ^ .^ Mr. Victor. He gets so much that there is not anything left as a rule He comes in here and gets a rig and drives out and looks around and charges the estate up with $10 or $15 for that, and by the trnie he does that two or three tunes in the year it about finishes it. 1132 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Long. When all these expenses are paid I should think there would not be much left for the child ? Mr. Victor. That is right. Generally there is not anything. I do not think there is one in ten of them that ever gets a cent. That is where the trouble is. The Indian could not do any worse. With- out this guardianship, he certainly would get something out of it. That is a certainty, and what he would get he would have. But that would not suit some people who have fees and these bond com- panies that make these bonds — all these people want it to stay as it is. I tell you, gentlemen, that this is the most iniquitous thing there is in the whole situation down here. It is the worst abuse we have, for it is something that affects the little children who are utterly , unable to come before you and tell you their troubles. I am trying to tell you as best I can; but it is a pity you can not stay longer in this country and just go out around amongst these Indians and see for yourselves. It would be worth more to you than all the talk you can hear about it. You would not have to go any further than Sampson's, but if you were not satisfied, there are others that I could show you. Senator Clark, of Montana. Is there much complaint among the Indians in regard to these guardianships ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; indeed there is. Senator Long. More than there is against grafting? Mr. Victor. Oh, yes; ten times as much. The Indian, when he gets his money from the grafter, is not apt to complain. As long as the grafter pays him pretty regularly, even if it is not much at a time, the Indian is not likely to complain. Where the Indian will make a kick is where the grafter, to get the lease, will say he will pay him $100 or $150 a year and makes the lease out for $50 or $75 a year, then the Indian will make a kick, just as anybody else would, and he goes off and makes a complaint about it at the agent's office, and then there is trouble. There was a man over here the other day — one of the farmers that is always kicking about the grafters — and he came to one of my neighbors, whose name is Sam Simpson, and he said: "Sam, if you will give me a lease on that land of yours I will take it and improve it, and in five years you will have nice improvements on it," and Sam said: ''How much will you pay me for it?" and he said, "I will put these improvements on it for you." So he would not do any better than the grafter would, but he is going around kicking about the grafters. The fact is, every last one of them is a grafter if he gets a chance, and when they go around kicking about grafters it is because they haven't had a good chance to get in their own graft. The only way, gentlemen, to get rid of these conditions is to remove all their restrictions — every one of them — wipe them all off at once, reserving only; the restriction that they get their money for their land and that their homesteads are reserved also. I think that there ought to be' at least 40 acres reserved from sale or lease, so that they would have some place to go to, and 40 acres is as much as anybody wants; at any rate, as much as any of the Indians want. If they will improve 40 acres, it will make a good comfortable, living for them down here. The Chairman. Mr. Victor, it has been suggested that this estate FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1133 that you referred to where the little children were not provided for Ml-. Victor. Mr. Sampson's children? The Chairman. Yes; it has been suggested by a gentleman, who just now came up here and spoke about it, that that estate was in a contest, and the whole thing is in the hands of the court, and the rents are paid into court, and that they can not be expended until that con- test is disposed of. Do you know anything about that part of the matter ? Mr. Victor. No, sir; I do not know anything about that. I will say this, that I do not suppose, by a good deal, that all of it is in a con- test. There may be a little of it contested, but I am sure that all of it is not contested. I understand there is some — I understand it was not the children's land but John Sampson's land that was contested, for I saw him the other day and he told me that he had lost out, and he had gone to the Choctaw Nation and had filed on some land there. The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where the guardian and the grafter who leased the land were working together and dividing the spoils or profits? Mr. Victor. I do not altogether understand that. The Chairman. Did you ever find a case, or do you know of a case where the guardian who leases the land and the grafter who gets the lease were working together and dividing the profits or spoils of the estate? Mr. Victor. I do not know of more than one concern that I have understood does that, but I do not know that it does it. I only tell you what I have heard. The Chairman. Speaking in a general way, the position of a guar- dian is in disrepute down here in this country or these nations ? Mr. Victor. I do not know how it is all over the Territory. I know it is considered a disreputable business in the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. The Chairman. It is in disrepute among the Indians ? Mr. Victor. Oh, yes; it is with everybody, the white people as well as the Indians. I think you have heard white men who have come before you and denounced it as bitterly as the Indians have. The Chairman. That is the way it is universally looked upon down here. Mr. Victor. That comes pretty near true, but there is a guardian now and -then who does the right thing and looks after his wards all right. He does the best he can for them. Now and then you will find that kind of a man. I want to say this, that if a guardian comes in with a bill for railroad fare and hotel bills at $2 a day he does not have any trouble in getting it approved, but if it is a bill for groceries or dry goods, or other necessaries that he has got for his wards, he has a pretty hard time to get that approved. I do not know that there has been one account approved where the guardian was advancing $5 a month and dry goods, and I know the children did get them— actually got them— I know that, for I went myself every month and got them. They are at my house now, going to school. The Chairman. I want to ask you a question about the ability of these full bloods to make an allotment. Would you infer that these people who had lived here for a long time— who were born and raised here—would b» familiar with all the land in their section, or at least 1134 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. in their neighborhood — would be familiar with that land to an extent sufficient to enable them to go and make an allotment for themselves ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Would it not be reasonable to infer that when the time came for making allotments that they could go and pick out the land and make the allotments for themselves? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And that they could do that without the aid or assistance of any grafter? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; they could if they were living in that country. Take the Chickasaws, who have always lived in this country. They went and selected their own allotments, for they knew the country and knew what they wanted. But take the Choctaws — the southern , and northern ones, both. As a rule, they did not know anything about this Chickasaw country, and it was a natural thing that they should have someone select them. That is where the grafter got in his work. The Chairman. Why did they come here and make their allot- ments? Was it because the land is better, or was it because it was represented to them that there was better land here for them? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; it has been represented to them that the land is better. Of course these so-called grafters had men running around all over the Choctaw Nation hunting them up and bringing them here, and that is the reason they came here. With regard to the land, I believe as a general proposition that the land in the Chick- asaw Nation is better than it is in tlie Choctaw Nation. There is a lot of very good land in the Chickasaw Nation, and so there is in the Choctaw Nation; but on the wliole I believe there is a great deal more good land here in the Chickasaw Nation than there is in the Choctaw Nation. The Chairman. You think this is a better country than the Choc- taw country is? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir ; I believe that the Chickasaw country, taking it all over, is a better country than the Choctaw is. I have lived in both and know them as well" as anybody, and that is my opinion. The Chairman. AVhat is your occupation? Mr. Victor. I am a farmer. The Chairman. Where were you educated ? Mr. Victor. At Carlisle, Pa. The Chairman. Are you a graduate of that school? Mr. Victor. No, sir; I never took the finishing course. I left there before the examination day on account of my eyes. Although I had finished, I did not take the examinations. The Chairman. Why did you leave? Mr. Victor. I left there about three months before the time of the examination, on account of sore eyes. The Chairman. And you are cultivating a farm now ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How large a farm do you cultivate ? Mr. Victor. I myself cultivated this year about twenty-five or thirty acres. The Chairman. What did you raise? Mr. Victor. Corn and oats and sorghum, and such as that. The Chairman. You have spoken about the Indians using the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1135 proceeds of their lands, if the}^ were not restrained from doing so, and said that they had no "get up" to them, or something hke that. What did 3-ou mean by that? Mr. Victor. It is just about Hke this— I suppose in a general way that Indians are just about like white people. I think they are just about like white people. If you give some of them a thousand dollars a day, Hke lots of white men, they would not have a cent in thirty days. The Chairman. Are you gpeaking of the full bloods? Mr. Victor. Of both classes. When it comes down to business, •I believe there is just about as many full bloods that are capable of doing business as there is of the mixed breeds. The Chairman. Then your belief is that there are as great a pro- portion of the full bloods who are competent to do business for them- selves as there is of the mixed breeds ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; I think there would not be much difference. For instance, if you take a thousand mixed breeds and a thousand full bloods, and take them just as they come and take the restrictions off them, I believe the full bloods will at the end of a year show up with just as much as the mixed breeds. These full bloods, many of them can not speak the English language, but they are capable of taking care of themselves all the same, and these people, if they had an opportunity to sell their surplus would, I believe, use their money to very fair advantage. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Victor. It would give them an opportunity to improve their homestead. On the other hand, the Indian who would not use his money to advantage in improving his homestead would not do it if he had a million dollars ; so I say it does not seem to me to be any good putting these restrictions on his homestead, for if he is that kind of a man, the moment he gets his money out of his surplus he will ' 'blow it in" anywaj', whether it is rent money or money from the sale of it. They will do with it just the same as they did when the payments used to be made to them. The provident and careful ones took care of it, and spent it to good advantage and the improvident ones ' 'blew it in" as quick as they could. They would get their money one dsLj and the next morning thej^ would not have 5 cents. There are lots of whites just like that, too; so after all there is not so very much difference between an Indian and ai white man. The mixed bloods will_ do that just as much as the full bloods will. I could never see much difference m them anyway. The Chairman. Have the Choctaws a disposition to get up every day and go to work and till their land and try to raise a surplus of crops and sell it and save up money? Mr. Victor. Some of them. The Chairman. How many of them ? Mr. A''iCTOR. Well, I would say 40 per cent of them would. The Chairman. Do they do it now ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; they do it now. The Chairman. Many of them? Mr. Victor. Yes, lots of them. You have not been around much over this country, I guess. There are full bloods down here who have fine residences and as fine farms as you will find in the Territory. The Chairman. FuH bloods? 1136 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; full bloods. There is a full blood over here who, I understand, has between $6,000 and $7,000 in the bank at Medill. He is a full-blood Indian and he can neither read nor write, but he knows how to do business and save money. The officials tried to beat him out of it, but they failed, for he beat them. Now, that man is J. Hunter Pickens, and he is worth, I suppose, $50,000 or $60,000. He is not the only one either, for a great many of the full- blood Indians are in good circumstances. All those who will let an opportunity pass them will never do any good. • They are incorrigible, and you can not reform them by protecting them, and, I think it is wrong to protect them at the expense of the community, for this pro- tection, so-called, is only a dream, anyway. It does not protect them. It is ineffective from that standpoint; for nothing can protect them from their own infirmities, and it retards the growth and welfare of the country. If their surplus lands were sold for them and the money kept so that they could not spend it and doled out to them monthly or quarterly, that might be of some assistance to them, and it would have the advantage anyway of getting some one on their surplus allotments that would do some good with them. I am an Indian — more Indian than anything else — but I believe that this country ought to be permitted to advance, and a lot of worthless people of my blood should not be allowed to stand in its way. The good and progressive Indians — and there are lots of them will hold their own, and the worthless ones will go down, and that is all there is of it. They are down — most of them — and this policy of protecting them does not tend to elevate them at all. If you keep on protecting them, they will not be one bit more capable of taking care of themselves fifty years from to-day than they are to-day. That is my opinion, and that is all I think I have to say. There is one matter further that I want to call your attention to. I do not know whether it can be helped, but I want to call your atten- tion to it, and see if something can not be done about it. There are. some orphan children here who arfe Indians. One of them is at my house now, and I am sending her to school. They are Mississippi Choctaws, and this one that is going to school can speak a little English now. These children are orphans, and I think there are about four of them — sisters — and these children are not on the rolls. They are orphans and have no father or mother to look after them, and, of course, as they are not on the rolls they hare not been allotted any land, and therefore are not objects of solicitude on the part of either the grafter or the guardian. They are wholly destitute, in fact, are paupers, and yet there is no question in my mind about their being entitled to be on the rolls and having land allotted them. I thought I would call your attention to these children for if anything could be done for them it would be an act of justice only. The Chairman. Are they Choctaws ? Mr .Victor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many of them are there ? Mr. Victor. Four. The Chairman. Girls and orphans ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. If you would like to see them, I can bring them here to-morrow and show you that they are not manufactured B"IVE, CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1137 Indians. If jqu §aw them you would know they are the genuine article. The Chairman. How old are they? Mr. Victor. I believe the oldest one is about 16 years of age. The Chairman. They can not speak any English? Mr. Victor. No, sir; only one of them, she can speak a httle English. She is at my house going to school, and she is learning it fast. The Chairman. And neither of their parents are on the rolls? Mr. Victor. I believe tlieir father is on the rolls. The Chairman. What proportion of Indian blood are they? Mr. Victor. I do not know. I could not say, but if they are not full bloods, they are very near it. The Chairman. Did you Imow their parents? Mr. Victor. No, sir; I did not, but I knew their aunts — in fact, my wife is an aunt of theirs. The Chairman. Where were they brought up? Mr. Victor. They are Mississippi Choctaws. They have been here four years, or a little more than that. They came here from Mississippi. The Chairman. And they are fully qualified to be enrolled? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; certainly. The Chairman. Did their parents die after coming here ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; and their father, I think, is on the rolls. He died here. The Chairman. You do not know the exact blood of these children? Mr. Victor. No, sir; but I am under the impression that they are full bloods. They look like it. However, I can bring them here in the morning and you can see them for yourselves. They are genu- ine Indians ; anyone that looks at them will not have any doubt as to that. The Chairman. If your statement is correct, this is a meritorious case and they should be on the rolls. Can you get all this informa- tion and substantiate your statements and file it with the com- mittee ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir; I think so. Is Robert E. Lee in the room? [No response.] He had all the testimony and filed it with the Dawes Commission, and tried to get them put on the rolls under this last act ; but really I do not know what he did do. The Chairman. Do you know whether they have made any appli- cation to the tribal authorities or not? Mr. Victor. No, sir; I do not know. The Chairman. You had better see their attorney and have him present the matter to us. It is very proper, as thej^ are minors, and are entitled to enrollment, that they should be enrolled. Mr. Victor. I think so, and that is the reason your attention has been called to it. , The Chairman. There was a case similar to that yesterday at Mc- Alester. Mr. Cornish. This is a matter which of course concerns the Choc- taws and Chickasaws, and the statement made by the gentleman is one that interests me as a representative of these two nations, and as in a small measure their interests are involved, I ask permission to ask the gentleman a few questions and ascertain whether the S, Rep. .5013, .50-2, pt 1 73 1138 FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. facts are as he has stated them. If these minors are entitled to enroll- ment we shall not object, but we want to be sure first that they are entitled to enrollment. The Chaikman. You may question him. Mr. CoENiSH (to Mr. Victor) . Has any application been made to the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes for these children? Mr. Victor. I do not know. Mr. Cornish. I think it is a little unfair to have this statement made in the way it has been made before the committee, without more explicit information, because these people may be Indians by blood. According to his statement, they came here from Mississippi a few years ago and they may be half breeds or three-quarter bloods, and under these conditions they may not be entitled to enrollment. The Chairman. They could not be enrolled without the consent of the nations ? Mr. Cornish. In the first place, if persons are natives of the coun- try, the first question is whether their parents were on the roll. Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Mr. Cornish. Did you know their parents ? Mr. Victor. No, sir. Mr. Cornish. How do you know whether or not their father was on the roll ? Mr. Victor. Their father was on the Mississippi Choctaw roll. Mr. Cornish. You know what the lease district roll is? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Mr. Cornish. Is their father on the lease district roll ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Mr. Cornish. Was their father on the roll made by the tribal authorities in 1896? Mr. Victor. No, sir. Mr. Cornish. The father of these children was not on that roll ? Mr. Victor. I presume not, but I do not know. It is not likely he was, for that was ten years ago. Mr. Cornish. He was in Mississippi then? Mr. Victor. I presume so. Mr. Cornish. These children came here from Mississippi about four years ago ? Mr. Victor. Yes, sir. Mr. Cornish. They are not full bloods? Mr. Victor. I do not know. I could not say any more than I have already, that if they are not they are vei^^ near it. Mr. Cornish. Well, have you any information on that point? Mr. Victor. No, sir. Mr. Cornish. I will state to the committee that according 'to the information this gentleman has given me probably neither of the parents of these children is on the tribal rolls and they are not natives of this country. Therefore they can not be enrolled. The only remaining right which they have which they can insist upon is, being Mississippi Choctav^s; if full bloods they would be entitled to enroll- ment; and if not full bloods it would be necessary for them to show that they were actually Mississippi Choctaws, and not being able to make that showing they were not enrolled. That is all I have to say. Mr. Victor. I do not think they had anyone to represent them. FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 1139 "'ho Chairman. The hour is getting somewhat late; it is consid- f after 11 o'clofck, and we have been busy all evening; but I will r that this is about the time this committee is in the habit of wind- ; .ip the business of the day, so we will bring this evening session a close. One or two parties, on minor matters, have signified ..sir desire to meet the committee in the morning. We will hear |uich in the morning, beginning at 8 o'clock, and if there Lre cny f|ther persons who have anything that is of general interest or impor- ■ mce to present to the committee, we will be glad to give them an iportunity to do so. We will be here to-morrow only from 8 to 11 Jock. The committee will now adjourn until to-morrow morning b -8 o'clock, then to meet at this same place. So the committee adjourned till to-morrow, Thursday, November 2, at 8 o'clock a. m. O