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 INDUSTRIAL AND LABOR 
 
 RELATIONS 
 
 AT 
 
 CORNELL UNIVERSITY 
 
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 the Cornell University Library. 
 
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DEPARTMENTAi. ... .ivM^EE ON COMPENSATION FOE 
 INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 ^. V 
 
 Jb^ jil Jt ^3 f^ 'JL' 
 
 OF THE 
 
 DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE 
 
 ON 
 
 COMPENSATION FOR 
 
 INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 REPORT. 
 
 Urtsmieb fo brrt^ PowSjCS at ||arliam*nt bg Cxrmmanb of ^ts glajfslj). 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 FEINTED FOR HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 
 Bv WYMAN AM) SONS, Limited, 109, Fetter Lane, E.C. 
 
 And to be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from 
 
 WYMAN AND SONS, Limited, 109, Fetter Lane, Fleet Street, E.G.; and 
 82, Abcnqdon Street, Westminster, S.W. ; or 
 
 OLIVER and BOYD, Edinburgh; or 
 
 E. PONSONBY, 116, Grafton Street, Dublin. 
 
 1907. 
 
 [Cd. 3495.] Price 3d. 
 
TERMS OF EEFERENCE. 
 
 I hereby appoint : — 
 
 Herbert Samuel, Esquire, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 
 State for the Home Department ; 
 
 Thomas Clifford Allbutt, Esquire, M.D., F.R.S., Regius Professor 
 of Physic, Cambridge University ; 
 
 Henry Hardinge Cunynghame, Esquire, C.B., Assistant Under- 
 Secretary of State, Home Office ; and 
 
 Thomas Morison Legge, Esquire, M.D., Medical Inspector of Factories, 
 Home Office ; 
 
 to be a Committee to inquire and report what diseases and injuries, other than 
 injuries by accident, are due to industrial occupations, are distinguishable as such, 
 and can properly be added to the diseases enumerated in the Third Schedule of the 
 Workmen's Compensation Bill, 1906. 
 
 And I further appoint Herbert Samuel, Esquire, M.P., to be Chairman, 
 and F. L. D. Elliott, Esquire, of the Home Office, to be Secretary of the said 
 Committee. 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 H. J. Gladstone. 
 
 Whitehall, 
 
 4th August, 1906. 
 
 The Third Schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act 1906 is as follows : — 
 
 
 Description of Disease. 
 
 Description of Process. 
 
 Anthrax 
 
 Handling of wool, hair, bristles, hides, and skins. 
 
 Lead poisoning or its sequelae 
 
 Any process involving the use of lead or its preparations or com- 
 pounds. 
 
 Mercury poisoning or its sequelae 
 
 Any process involving the use of mercury or its preparations or 
 compounds. 
 
 Phosphorus poisoning or its sequelse 
 
 Any process involving the use of phosphorus or its preparations 
 or compounds. 
 
 Arsenic poisoning or its sequelse 
 
 Any process involving the use of arsenic or its preparations or 
 compounds. 
 
 Ankylostomiasis 
 
 Mining. 
 
 Where regulations or special rules made under any Act of Parliament for the protection of persons 
 employed in any industry against the risk of contracting lead poisoning require some or all of the persons 
 employed in certain processes specified in the regulations or special rules to be periodically examined by a 
 certifying or other surgeon, then, in the application of this Schedule to that industry, the expression , 
 " process " shall, unless the Secretary of State otherwise directs, include only the processes so specified. 
 
 4ia, 2,000— Wt. 15057. 5/07. Wy. & S. 
 
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DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTIilAL JHSEASES. 
 
 TABLE or CONTENTS. 
 
 PAGE 
 
 Principles of Selection 1 
 
 I. — Forms of Poisoning. 
 
 1. Nitro- and Amido-derivatives of Benzene (Dinitrobenzol, Anilin and others) 3 
 
 2. Carbon bisulphide - _ - . 4 
 
 3. Naphtha . - " - " ^ 
 4 Carbonic Oxide - 4 
 
 5. Nitrous Fumes - 5 
 
 6. Arseniuretted Hydrogen - - 5 
 
 7. Sulphuretted Hydrogen - 5 
 
 8. Sodium Cyanide and other Cyanogen Compounds 5 
 
 9. Nickel Carbonyl . . . . 6 
 
 10. Potassium Chlorate ... 6 
 
 11. Handling Lead and Arsenic Compounds - 6 
 
 12. " Brassfounders' Ague" - - 6 
 
 13. Brass Poisoning - 6 
 
 14. African Boxwood - 7 
 
 II. — Diseases of the Skin, etc. 
 
 15. Chrome Ulceration - - . . . _ 7 
 
 16. Other forms of Ulceration and Erosion of the Skin 8 
 
 17. Chrysoidine Poisoning - - - 8 
 
 18. Pitch Ulceration ... 8 
 
 19. Chimney-sweeps' Cancer - 9 
 
 20. Mange - . - 9 
 
 III. — Eye Diseases. 
 
 ;21. Nystagmus - - 9 
 
 22. Bottlemakers' Cataract - 10 
 
 12 
 - 12 
 
 .23. Injury to the Eyes from Repeated Impact of Fragments of Metal 
 :24. Injury to the Eyes from Electric Welding - - 
 
 IV. — Diseases of the Respiratory System. 
 
 25. Bronchitis - 12 
 
 26. "Slag Cough" - 12 
 
 27. Pneumonia 12 
 
 28. Phthisis and Pulmonary Fibrosis 13 
 
 V. — Miscellaneous. 
 
 29. Glanders 19 
 :30. "Grease" 19 
 
 31. Compressed Air Illness 19 
 
 32. Dilatation of the Heart - 20 
 
 33. Neurosis due to Vibration - 20 
 
 34. Dining-car Attendants' Diseases 20 
 
 35. Anaemia among Photographic Workers 20 
 
 36. Diseases among Night-soil Men - ... - 21 
 
 VI. — Injuries not due to Accident. 
 
 37. "Beat Hand" - - - 21 
 .38. "Beat Knee" and "Beat Elbow" 21 
 
 39. Sprained Wrist and Teno-synovitis 21 
 
 40. "Housemaid's Knee ' 22 
 
 41. Hernia - . 22 
 
 42. Boilermakers' Deafness 22 
 
 Recommendations - . 22 
 
 •Conclusion - - . . 23 
 
R T<] P R T. 
 
 To THE Rt. Hon. Herbert J. Gladstone, M.P., Secretary of State for the 
 
 Home Department. 
 
 Sir, 
 
 The Committee has held forty-one sittings, of which some have been at Bradford, 
 Huddersfield, Sheffield, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Glasgow, Manchester and 
 Swansea, the remainder in London. 
 
 We have heard the evidence of a hundred and fifty-nine witnesses, ninety-two o-f 
 whom belonged to the medical profession, the others being almost all either employers 
 or workmen. We have visited many factories and works of various kinds in order to 
 view the processes we were investigating, and the medical members of the Committee 
 liave made clinical examinations of a number of the workpeople engaged in them. 
 We have had the advantage of consulting the evidence and the Reports, in so far 
 as they related to the subject matter of our Inquiry, of Committees appointed by 
 your predecessors on Dangerous Trades, on the Conditions of Labour in Chemical 
 Works, on the Dangers to the Life and Health of Workers in Quarries, on Water 
 Gas and other Gases Containing a Large Proportion of Carbonic Oxide, and on 
 the Health of Cornish Miners. We have found much valuable information also in 
 the Annual Reports of the Chief Inspector of Factories, in Dr. Oliver's 
 •encyelopsedic book on " Dangerous Trades," and in a number of technical publications 
 by medical men. As the outcome of these investigations we have the honour to 
 present the following Report. 
 
 Principles of Selection. 
 
 To each of the diseases or forms of injury which have been under our con- 
 sideration we have applied three tests in compliance with the provisions and intention 
 of the Workmen's Compensation Act. 
 
 (i.) Is it outside the category of accidents and diseases already covered by 
 the Act ? 
 
 (ii.) Does it incapacitate from work for a period of more than one week, 
 which is the minimum period for which compensation is payable under the 
 Act? 
 
 (iii.) Is it so specific to the employment that the causation of the disease 
 or inj ury by the employment can be established in individual cases ? 
 
 (i.) The question of the proper line of demarcation between "accidents," which 
 are already included in the Act, and " diseases " which might properly be added to its 
 schedule, has arisen several times in the course of our Inquiry. We have had to 
 consider, for example, many forms of poisoning by gaseous fumes. They cannot 
 all be left in the category of accidents. In some ca,ses, in which compensation 
 should clearly be payable, the symptoms occur through the exposure of the workman 
 to the noxious fumes during a considerable period ; and though this exposure 
 may sometimes be due to some definite mistake in the process of manufacture, in other 
 cases no exceptional cause can be assigned with certainty. The Courts could not hold 
 in such circumstances that the man's illness was due to an "accident," and it would 
 be necessary to schedule it as, an industrial "disease." On the other hand they 
 cannot all be placed in the category of diseases. Cases in which men are suddenly 
 asphyxiated by some poisonous gas, evolved in a mine explosion, for example, or 
 released by the bursting of a vessel — to class these, even if the consequences be 
 ■deferred or protracted, as " diseases " and not as " accidents " would be to do 
 violence to the ordinary use of language. The same difficulty presents itself with 
 
 419 A 
 
respect to mtin\' kinds of muscular strains and internal lesions. It is necessary to 
 find some dividing line. 
 
 The question is complicated by the fact that the Courts have held that anthrax, 
 which is ordinarily regarded as a disease, may be the consequence of an accident 
 within the meaning of the Workmen's Compensation Act ;* vv'hile Parliament, wishing 
 perhaps to include beyond doubt all cases of anthrax, has since named it in the 
 schedule of diseases. 
 
 In the dicta of the Law Lords while giving judgment in cases where this 
 point was raised, we find in all definitions of the term " accident " some such 
 |3hrase as "unlooked-for mishap," " unintended occurrence," or "untoward event." 
 Compelled, as we have been, to fix a boundary, we have necessarily been led hj these 
 expressions of authority to regard as the results of " accident " those symptoms 
 which are due to a "mishap," an "occurrence," or an "event" — that is to say, 
 to a cause which operates at a definite moment of time — and to regard as 
 "diseases" or as "injuries not being injuries by accident" those which cannot be 
 attributed to a cause of that character. 
 
 (ii.) The second condition — that the disease or injury should be such as to 
 incapacitate from work for a period of at least a week — is adopted for obvious 
 reasons and present."* little difficulty. It excludes a very few ailments, some of 
 them transitory in their effects, such as " brassfounders' ague," some, like the deaf- 
 ness prevalent among boilermakers, of a chronic nature, but not such as to prevent 
 the workmen from continuing at their trade. 
 
 (iii.) The third condition requires the disease or injury to be specific to the 
 employment. Many diseases may be regarded as trade diseases, and rightly so 
 regarded, because they are known to be specially prevalent among the workers in 
 particular industries ; but they may not be specific to the trade, since they may 
 frequently, although more seldom, attack persons engaged in other occupations. 
 Bronchitis, for example, is a trade disease among flax-workers ; a larger proportion 
 of that class suffer from it than of other people ; but it is not specific to the 
 employment, for numbers of persons who are not flax- workers contract it also. Unless 
 there is some symptom which differentiates the bronchitis due to dust from the 
 ordinary type, it is clearly impracticable to include it as a subject of compensation ^ 
 for no one can tell, in any individual case, whether the flax-worker with bronchitis 
 was one of the hundreds of persons in the town whose bronchitis had no connection 
 with dust irritation, or whether he was one of the additional tens or scores of persons 
 whose illness was due to that cause. To ask a court of law to decide would be to lay 
 upon it an impossible task. If the workman were required to prove his case, he 
 might be able to show that a larger percentage of his trade simered from bronchitis 
 than of the rest of the population, but he could never show that he himself was' 
 a unit in the excess, and not in the normal part, of that percentage. If it were 
 the employer who was required to disprove a claim, he could rarely, if ever, show 
 that the workman did not contract the illness through his employment, and he would 
 be compelled to compensate not only those labourers whose bronchitis had a trade 
 origin, but also all those whose bronchitis was in no degree an industrial disease. 
 "We gather from the debates in Parliament that it was a recognition of this- 
 necessity of some means of deciding in individual cases whether or not the disease 
 was due to the employment, which decided the Legislature not to open the door 
 to claims from workmen suff'ering from ar/p disease, as the door is open to claims 
 on the score of anp accident, but to proceed by way of scheduliuii- those diseases 
 which can, in any given case, be differentiated as due to the special conditions of a 
 trade. 
 
 * Brintons Limited v. Turvey (1905 Appeal Cases 230) "the County Court, Judge awarded 
 
 compensation to the respondent, saying : ' I find as a fact that the anthrax, which was the immediate 
 cause of deitb, was caused by the accidental alighting of a bacillus from the infected wool on a 
 part of the deceased's person which afforded a harbour in which it could multiply and grow and so 
 cause a malignant disease and consequent death. I can see no distinction in principle between the 
 accidental entry of a spark from an anvil or the accidental squirting of scalding water or some poisonous 
 liquid into the eye. The only difference is that in those cases the foreign substance would be so laree- 
 as to be visible, in this case the foreign substance is microscopic. .... My judgment is based on the 
 fact that there was in this case a fortuitous intrusion of a foreign substance into the eye which by its 
 presence there caused death.'" 
 
 and by 
 
 This decision was affirmed by the Court of Appeal (Collins, M.R , Mathew and Cozens-Hardy L.J J \ 
 by the House of Lords. • • • •/ 
 
This argument is subject to the qualification that where a disease is common in a 
 particular trade, and the same disease exists, but very rarely, outside the trade, it 
 may be right to make it the subject of compensation, even though the employers may 
 be called upon to relieve the small percentage of cases which would occur among the 
 men employed in the industry while due to causes unconnected with the industry. 
 
 In this connection, we have had to consider also whether we should investigate, 
 with a view to inclusion in the Schedule, cases of persons who, in the course of 
 their employment, contract by contagion or infection some widely prevalent 
 disease. The claim for compensation may sometimes appear to be a strong one, as in 
 the case of a labourer sent to assist in disinfecting a ship which has had cases of small- 
 pox on board and who himself catches the disease. And here, although the illness 
 is not specific to the employment, sufficient proof that it was contracted in the course 
 of the employment may sometimes be possible. But to admit this class of claim 
 would involve admitting also the claim of the nurse or the doctor's assistant who 
 attends an infectious case and takes the infection, the schoolmaster who contracts 
 measles from the pupils in his school, the shop assistant who catches influenza from 
 another assistant in the same shop, the domestic servant who takes an illness which 
 chances to be in the house— a variety of cases which we have no reason to think 
 Parliament intended to be considered as industrial diseases. We are of opinion that 
 neither the wording of the Act, nor the character of the Third Schedule in its present 
 form, nor the discussion of the Bill in Parliament, gives any indication that our 
 legislation on Workmen's Compensation contemplates cases of ordinary illnesses 
 contracted by chance through exposure to infection while in an employer's service. 
 
 The Act permits the burden of proof, in the question whether a disease was or 
 was not due to the employment, to be laid in any class of cases either on the workman 
 who makes a claim or on the employer who resists it. Section 8 (1) provides that 
 compensation shall be paid to a workman who is found to be suffering from a disease 
 mentioned in the first column of the Third Schedule to the Act. Section 8 (2) 
 provides that if the workman was employed in any process mentioned in the 
 second column of the Third Schedule opposite to that disease, then, in ordinary course, 
 the disease shall be deemed to be due to the nature of the employment unless the 
 employer proves the contrary. In a case, for example, of anthrax, the workman, if 
 he is employed in the handling of wool, hair, bristles, hides or skins (the processes 
 mentioned in the second column of the schedule), is entitled to his compensation, 
 unless the employer can show that the disease was not due to the trade ; but if 
 the workman is employed as a farm labourer he is still able to claim compensation, 
 although his occupation is not mentioned in the Schedule, only the onus would rest 
 upon him of showing that his disease had been caused by the employment. In 
 •each of the cases we have investigated we have therefore found it necessary to 
 consider on which party it is just to lay the burden of proof — in other words, what 
 processes, if any, should be added to the second column of the Schedule in connection 
 with diseases to be added to the first. 
 
 Section 8 (6) empowers the Secretary of State, when making additions to tha 
 Third Schedule, to modify the Industrial Diseases Clause itself in its application to 
 the added diseases. We have borne this fact in mind, but we have not found it 
 necessary to propose any such modification. 
 
 I. — Forms of Poisoning, 
 
 1. Nitro- and amido-derivatives of Benzene. — Dinitrobenzol and dinitiotoluol — 
 nitro-derivatives of benzene — are recognised as capable of producing marked 
 symptoms of ill health among the comparatively small number of men engaged in 
 their manufacture, or in their use in the preparation of certain high explosives. 
 These symptoms may incapacitate for some weeks or months. Poisonous eff'ects 
 result from inhalation of fumes or dust, and, unlike most other chemicals, from 
 direct absorption through the skin in handUng the material itself or solutions 
 containing it. The symptoms are due to degeneration and destruction of the red 
 corpuscles in the blood, and to direct action, in severe cases, on the nerve centres. 
 Anaemia and cyanosis (lividity), most easily seen in the lips, are always prominent 
 
 419. 
 
and distinctive. In severe cases the sensory and motor nerve endings may become' 
 afFected, and muscular atrophy, mostly of the fingers and thumb, results. Habits 
 of life and previous work affect susceptibility to the poison. 
 
 Inhalation of the vapour of anihn oil— an amido-derivative of benzene— or ot 
 the vapour of anilin hydrochloride, or absorption of the oil through the skin, may 
 cause symptoms of the same nature and due to the same cause as those just 
 described, although as a rule they are much less pronounced. The effects of anilin. 
 oil, as used industrially in anilin black dyeing, are shown by the appearance in some- 
 workers of greyish or bluish coloration of the lips, accompanied by varying degrees of 
 headache, dizziness, drowsiness and lassitude, some difficulty in breathing, and gastrie 
 disturbance with loss of appetite. These symptoms, as is the case also in 
 dinitrobenzol workers, are aggravated in hot weather. We do not doubt that 
 definite efiects, the result of inhalation of anilin vapour, may incapacitate the 
 worker for a longer period than a week, but we would guard against the assumption 
 that all illness in anilin black dyers is to be attributed to anilin, 
 
 In factories in which nitro- and amido-derivatives of benzene are made or 
 used persons are found showing in slight degree the signs of their calling. With a 
 vieAv to obtain, if possible, proofs more conclusive than previous investigations had 
 furnished of the precise changes in the blood which would serve as a means of 
 diagnosing anilin and dinitrobenzol poisoning in distinction from illness due to some 
 other cause, we invited Dr. W. Maiden, of the Pathological Laboratory, Cambridge,, 
 to make special inquiry on this point. His report, based on exhaustive researches,, 
 will be found in the Appendix, and not only places beyond doubt the toxic effects 
 of the substances, but furnishes data on which, in doubtful cases, a sound judgment 
 can be based. 
 
 Poisoning by dinitrobenzol and anilin is distinctly a trade disease ; and we 
 consider that those who are employed in their manufacture or in their use should 
 be entitled to compensation when incapacitated by their effects. These forms of 
 poisoning can be most conveniently scheduled imder the general heading of 
 " Poisoning by nitro- and amido-derivatives of Benzene," a form which would also- 
 cover cases of disease from the use of other members of this dangerous chemical 
 group, should such cases occur. 
 
 2. Carbon-bisulphide, used in india-rubber manufacture, has been, in earlier 
 years, the cause of a number of grave cases of disease. 
 
 The chronic efiects were due either [a) to the action of the vapour, when- 
 inhaled, on the nerve centres, causing mental exaltation or depression, or [b) to 
 infiammation of the sensory and motor nerve endings, producing numbness of 
 the feet and hands, followed in some cases by peripheral neuritis or temporary- 
 blindness. In less severe cases headache, dizziness, gastric disturbance, and 
 impairment of appetite were frequent. 
 
 The dangerous properties of carbon-bisulphide have long been recognised^ 
 and stringent Special Rules were made by the Home Secretary in 1897 to protect 
 the workers exposed to its effects. These rules have proved successful, and 
 our inquiries lead to the conclusion that in recent years the disease has been 
 wholly eradicated. So long as the substance is used, however, the possibility of 
 poisoning remains. Should cases recur we consider that they should be the- 
 subject of compensation. 
 
 3. Naphtha. — Cases are reported in which persons engaged in the cleaning out of 
 naphtha storage tanks have been overcome and rendered unconscious from the fumes. 
 Such cases are in the nature of accidents, but naphtha has also been alleged to be a 
 cause of illness, gradually contracted, among workers in india-rubber factories. We 
 have carefully investigated this question, have visited factories where naphtha is used^ 
 have examined and questioned the workers, and have asked the opinion of a number 
 of witnesses qnahfiled to speak with authority. The smell of naphtha vapour causes 
 in some workers headache, nausea and vomiting, and if there is vaporisation from 
 large surfaces spread over with the material in rooms with deficient ventilation, 
 psychical disturbance may result, akin to that produced by alcoholic vapour. We 
 have not been able to find evidence that workers are incapacitated for a period as long; 
 as a week, and are of opinion that naphtha poisoning should not be added to the list. 
 
 4. Carbonic Oxide.— 'Wq received much evidence to the effect that poison- 
 
ing by this gas is invariably sudden, and therefore in the nature of ara 
 accident, and that after effects can be referred back to a definite time 
 when inhalation occurred. But four instances were given by Br. Judson Bury 
 and Dr. Oliver of gradual poisoning, without occurrence at any time of unctm^ 
 sciousness, by furnace gas, in which 'a,bout 25 per cent, of carbonic oxide is present.' 
 Multiple neuritis was the main symptom in all four cases, and there appears 
 to be little doubt that some constituent of the furnace gas was the direct cause. 
 
 The subject, however, is by no means free from obscurity. Had a gas, which is 
 so common as carbonic oxide, possessed noxious qualities of this character, we should 
 have expected that the fact would have been recognised long since and in many more 
 than four cases. The evidence that has been so far collected we cannot consider 
 sufficient to establish that poisoning either by carbonic oxide or by other gases 
 evolved in furnaces can be regarded as a trade disease. 
 
 5. Nitrous Fumes. — Cases of poisoning from this source (some fatal) were described 
 by witnesses as occurring at times in chemical and explosives factories. A 
 characteristic of this form of poisoning is the insidious onset of the symptoms— a 
 man may go on working after inhalation of the fumes Avith little inconvenience, 
 and yet succumb twenty-four or thirty-six hours 'later from acute congestion of the 
 lungs. The fumes set up a severe inflammation, which takes some hours to- bring, 
 about the exudation into the smaller bronchial tubes and air vesicles,' which eventually 
 completely fills them. It was the opinion of the witnesses that such poisoning was 
 in the nature of an accident. Cases might arise, however, where proof of this was 
 difficult, and, since compensation should be payable in such cases, we think it 
 advisable to recommend the inclusion of "Poisoning by nitrous fumes" in the 
 Schedule. 
 
 6. Arseniuretted Hydrogen. — More than one medical witness, notably Professor 
 Glaister, considered that special attention should be called to this form of poisoning, 
 in view of the insidious action of the gas and the unlooked-for places inwhich its! 
 existence had bCen proved. Medical 'men are not, as" a rule, familiar' with the 
 symptoms, which, once seen, can never be mistaken for any other form of illness'. 
 In the course of a' few hours after inhalation of even minute quantities of the gas 
 there is shivering followed by weakness, headache, vomiting, and collapse. After 
 8 to 10 hours and later the destructive action of the gas oh thb red blood celLs 
 shows itself by the presence of blood in the urine. In 24 hours jaundice appears, and 
 usually becomes of an intense coppery hue. ■ Death may' occur within 24 hours, but 
 in the majority of cases is delayed until the lapse of a week or more. Recovery in 
 the mild cases is slow. Almost all the cases of poisoning by arseniuretted hydrogen 
 gas have been due to work carried on in confined spaces, or under conditions in 
 which removal of the gases evolved was impeded. 
 
 It is unnecessary to add this form of poisoning to the list, as it is already included 
 under the heading of "Arsenic Poisoning or its Sequela^.'' As the symptoms 
 described, however, differ so markedly from the cutaneous and gaiStric symptoms of 
 arsenic poisoning, as ordinarily understood, we are glad to have the opportunity of 
 calling attention to the point. 
 
 7. Sulphuretted Hydrogen. — Sulphuretted hydrogen gas, evolved in various pro- 
 cesses in gas works and chemical works, has not unfrequently produced grave and 
 even fatal illness ; but its generally recognised effect is extreme suddenness of onset. 
 The " gassing " lakes place at a particular moment. We had evidence from the 
 Chief Inspector under the Alkali Act, however, of special susceptibility of some 
 persons to the effects of sulphuretted hydrogen gas, so much so as to necessitate their 
 seeking some other employment. We are of opinion that sucji cases are exceed- 
 ingly rare. Nor can personal idiosyncrasy, of this kind be said ,to be equivalent 
 to incapacity due to the nature of the employment. We consider that no sufficient 
 argument has been adduced to enable us to regard the effect of the gas, for the pur- 
 poses of the Workmen's Compensation Act, as other than due to accident. 
 
 8. Sodium Cyanide and other Cyanogen Compounds. — Hydrocyanic acid gas; 
 similarly, generated in the manufacture of cyanide compounds, has caiised fatal 
 illness ; but its effect is sudden also, and we have not received evidence that 
 workmen suffer gradual poisoning as the result of exposure over a period of time. 
 We communicated with the factory surgeon at a sodium cyanide plant in existence 
 
for some years, but no case of gradual poisoning among the workmen employed 
 upon it had come under his notice, although any such case would have become 
 known to him directly or indirectly. Cases of illness from these compounds are 
 therefore " accidents" within the meaning of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and 
 it is neither necessary nor possible to include this form of poisoning in the Schedule. 
 
 9. Nickel Carbonyl.—The plant, for the separation of nickel from the ore, of which 
 there is only one in England, is now so carefully watched and safe-guarded that no 
 cases of poisoning have occurred recently. At the first introduction of the process 
 five years ago, however, before the dangerous properties of this gas had been recognised, 
 a number of men were poisoned, some of them fatally. The remarkable train of 
 symptoms— unlike those produced by any other known compound— described by 
 Dr. J. Jones, who has seen the twenty-five cases which have occurred, will be 
 found in the Minutes of Evidence. The slight initial symptoms of headache, giddiness, 
 anaemia and pain in the post-sternal region, are followed twelve to eighteen hours 
 later by severe pain down the front of the chest, and whenever movement is made 
 there is difficulty in breathing. The respirations gi-adually become more and more 
 rapid until the fifth or sixth day, when they begin to become less frequent and signs 
 of recovery set in. Three of the cases, however, proved fatal ; the others all ended 
 in complete recovery. There can be no guarantee that cases will not recur and we 
 recommend that the disease be added to the Schedule. 
 
 10. Potassium Chlorate. — It has been suggested that the dust evolved in the 
 rgrinding of potassium chlorate, if inhaled, might be a cause of chronic anaemia. We 
 have not received, however, any evidence that this result actually occurs. 
 
 n. Handling Lead and Arsenic Compounds. — We have received evidence to the 
 effect that lead and arsenic poisoning may be contracted by dock labourers engaged 
 in the unloading of cargoes of lead or arsenic compounds. The Schedule of the Act 
 as it stands allows any workman to claim compensation for lead poisoning, but if he 
 is emploj'ed in " any process involving the use of lead or its preparations or com- 
 pounds " the workman is relieved from the onus of proving that the disease was 
 due to his employment. Arsenic poisoning stands on the same footing. The dock 
 labourer, however, who unloads from a ship ore containing one of these substances 
 ■cannot be said to " use " the ore, any more than a furniture remover who unloads 
 furniture from a van can be said to "use" it. We are of opinion that a man who 
 contracts lead or arsenic poisoning in this way should be placed in as favourable a 
 position in claiming compensation as men who contract it in the processes already 
 covered by the Act, and we recommend that an addition be made to the Schedule 
 accordingly. 
 
 12. " Bi^as.'i-founders' Ague.'' — The fumes evolved in the pouring of brass give 
 rise to a peculiar train of symptoms known as " brass-founders' ague," which are 
 believed to be due rather to the zinc than the copper element in the alloy. The 
 malady is observed especially on resumption of work after a few days' absence, and in 
 workshops where egress of fumes is impeded. The Committee entertains no doubt as 
 to the extensive prevalence of the affection, which is characterised by comparatively 
 sudden onset of malaise, trembling, sense of depression, shivering and chattering of 
 teeth, and feehng of cold followed on the evening of the same day by vomiting and 
 speedy recovery. Nor can the evidence be doubted that illness among brass 
 casters is considerably greater than among members of other branches of the trade, 
 and for this reason they are pei^mitted to come on the superannuation funds of 
 their Trade Society at 55 years of age as compared with 60 for other members. 
 This excessive illness, however, among brass casters late in life, although associated 
 with fumes, cannot be ascribed either to " brass-founders' ague " or to any specific 
 disease of the calling, but is mainly bronchitic in nature, and is therefore dealt with 
 elsewhere in the Report. 
 
 The evidence we have received shows that "brass-founders' ague" is very 
 transitory in its effects ; they seldom last for more than a day, and we cannot find 
 that they ever continue for so long as a week. No claim for compensation, 
 therefore, can arise under this head. 
 
 13. Brass Poisoning . — From one witness the Committee heard evidence of brass 
 poisoning, which was viewed as the aspect which " brass-founder's ague " assumes 
 
among polishers, filers and other brass workers not exposed to the fumes. 
 Symptoms of anaemia, excessive debility, emaciation, nervousness and neuralgic pains, 
 accompanied in all cases by a green line at the bases of the teeth, were attributed 
 to this catfse. This green deposit of basic carbonate of copper, it may be remai-ked, 
 is, unlike the blue line of lead poisoning, not found upon the gums, but on the 
 teeth, close to the gums, and points only to work involving exposure to brass 
 dust. Even in the severer forms of such illness, under proper treatment, recovery 
 was said to take place in a few weeks. No distinct sequence of symptoms 
 obtains, and brass poisoning, as described, has not received general medical 
 recognition. To schedule brass poisoning would lead to claims made in all good faith 
 for any ill-defined sickness in persons showing a green line on the teeth, and we are 
 clearly of opinion that it should not be included. 
 
 14. African Boxwood. — Use of this wood — in shuttlemaking — dates only some 
 ten years back. The difficulties in its identification were considerable, for this is 
 one of the fresh woods, which, under fancy names, come upon the market from 
 time to time, their botanical source and properties being almost unknown. Generally 
 throughout the trade it is known as West African boxwood or Knysna boxwood — 
 Knysna being the port in South Africa from which it is exported. But these are 
 two distinct woods, which, resembling each other closely in appearance, belong to 
 different orders. Neither of them is a boxwood, but since shuttles are largely 
 made of Persian boxwood the suggestive appellation has been given to botJi the 
 African woods. 
 
 Recurring attacks of headache, coryza, lachrymation, and asthma-like seizures 
 when working the particular woo^l, led the workmen themselves to submit samples of 
 it to Professor Harvey Gibson, of the Hartley Botanical Laboratories, Liverpool. 
 Subsequently, in consequence of the attention called to the matter, the manufacturers 
 submitted samples of the same Knysna boxwood for examination by Professor Dixon 
 of the Pharmacological Laboratory, Cambridge. Both experimenters prepared an 
 alkaloid identical in its chemical and physiological properties. Although as a result 
 of differing method of experiment they were led to view the action of the drug in a 
 diff'erent light — the one as a cardiac depressant the other as a paralyser of the 
 motor nerve endings similar to the arrow poison curare — they were both at one 
 as to its extremely poisonous character. 
 
 Shuttlemaking is a small industry, and it is not in all factories that the wood is 
 used so continuously as to produce the accumulative effect which the evidence 
 shows to be necessary before any marked symptoms of respiratory or other trouble 
 appear. This may account for the fact that, so far as we can learn, the number who 
 have been incapacitated from work in Blackburn (one of the chief centres of 
 shuttlemaking) has been but few. Medical experience of the effects produced is 
 scanty, but with a history of employment in shuttlemaking asthma-like seizures, 
 brought on when working African boxwood, should guide the practitioner in 
 attendance to the true nature of the case. 
 
 The existence of poisoning by African boxwood has been proved to our satisfaction, 
 and we recommend its inclusion in the Schedule. 
 
 IL — Diseases of the Skin, Etc, 
 
 15. Chrome Ulceration. — The skin of workers engaged in the manufacture or 
 potassium and sodium bichromate, or in the use to which chromic acid or solutions 
 of the alkaline bichromates are put in dyeing, colour making, photoengraving, and 
 other processes, may become the seat of eczematous eruptions or of ulceration, 
 which commences frequently, but not always, when there has been an abrasion. 
 The lesions thus caused are somewhat intractable and may cause incapacity for several 
 weeks. A cut or abrasion of the skin, if unprotected and neglected, among workers 
 engaged in the manufacture of the crystals or in their use in strong solution, becomes 
 the seat of a sluggish ulcer with characteristically undermined and thickened edges, 
 known as a " chrome hole," and in this class of work eruptions are rare. Where on the 
 other hand the material is in dilute solution, as in slub dyeing and anilin black dyeing, 
 the form assumed is usually a papular eruption, especially at such points on the 
 hands and fingers and under surface of the wrist and forearm where contact with 
 the material has been more persistent. Constant immersion of the hands in the 
 solution may cause the papule to burst, leaving a chronic ulcerated condition. The 
 
8 
 
 skin of some workers is much more readily attacked than that of others. The 
 ulceration may penetrate to the bone and lead to loss of the nails, or deformity 
 of the joints of the finger. Where in the manufacture of the crystals dust is 
 inhaled, the septum of the nose generally becomes perforated, but during the 
 months that this process of ulceration takes before it is completed there is no 
 evidence that the pain or inconvenience is ever such as to cause incapacity for a week. 
 The lesions can be distinguished without difficulty. The affection directly arises 
 from the employment, and we recommend that it should be added to the Schedule. 
 
 16. Other forms of Ulceration and Erosion of the Skin.— In a variety of trades the 
 skin of the workers suffers from the deleterious nature of dusts that are produced, 
 or corrosive or caustic liquids that are used. We have had evidence to this effect 
 relating to tile-makers and colour-blowers in the potteries, to cabinet-makers working 
 certain kinds of satin-wood, to dyers and bleachers, and to some other trades. 
 
 The disease is usually of an eczematous nature, by which we mean that it 
 resembles in appearance the idiopathic, common, superficial dermatitis, known as 
 eczema, but it differs from this in that in all cases it is the reaction of the healthy 
 skin to a definite known irritant, and is characterised by those parts of the body only 
 being affected, as a rule, which are uncovered, notably the hands and forearm. Less 
 frequently the disease may assume the form of localised ulceration of the skin of 
 the hands or forearm, such as has been described under " Chrome ulceration." 
 Inhalation of the lime dust from the unloading of such cargoes as calcined spathic 
 ore may give rise not only to a slight eczematous eruption of the skin, but also to 
 the development of several small ulcers on the mucous membrane lining the buccal 
 cavity, and this lesion should also come within the definition to be adopted. We 
 consider that compensation should be payable in these cases, and that they should 
 be included in the Schedule under the comprehensive heading of " Eczematous 
 ulceration of the skin produced by dust or caustic or corrosive liquids, or ulceration 
 of the mucous membrane of the nose or mouth produced by dust." 
 
 In this connection we would recommend, however, a departure from the 
 procedure usually followed. It is not possible to say in all the cases, or 
 even in a veiy large proportion of the cases, in which the existence of the 
 disease is established, that it must necessarily have arisen from the employment. 
 A disease having been recognised as anthrax, or lead poisoning, or chrome 
 ulceration, and the worker having been employed in handling hides, or making 
 pottery with lead-glazes, or dyeing with chrome, the probability that the 
 disease is due to the employment is so overwhelming that it is just to secure 
 compensation to the worker unless the employer can show that it is not so due 
 JBut in these injuries to the skin there is a less approach to certainty. The same 
 symptoms might be caused by a corrosive liquid used in the home, or even, in rare 
 cases, be the result of idiopathic disease. We are of opinion, therefore, that the burden 
 -of proof should in this case be left, as it is always left in cases of accident, on the 
 workman, and that no processes should be inserted in the second column of the 
 Schedule opposite to this disease. We foresee little difficulty in furnishing the 
 necessary proofs in cases in which the disease clearly arises from the trade. 
 
 17. Chrysoidine Poisoning. — Chrysoidine is a substance used in the boot trade 
 for colouring the soles of boots and shoes. Five or six years ago a number of 
 cases of severe ulceration of the hands and arms occurred among boot-makers in 
 Bristol and was attributed to its use. Other cases have been recorded elsewhere. 
 We have inquired fully into the circumstances and feel convinced that cases ■ of 
 skin poisoning have occurred among boot-makers using this substance, but we are 
 inclined to think that the injui'ies may have been due not to the chrysoidine itself, 
 but to one or several of the acids with which it is sometimes mixed. Chrysoidine 
 lias been in long and general use in the boot trade, and had it possessed dangerous 
 properties the cases' of poisoning would have been numerous and the danger 
 recognised long since. But it is unnecessary for us to arrive at a definite conclusion 
 on this point, for, whatever be the chemical agent which has caused the injury, 
 compensation should be payable ; and, whatever it be, the case will be covered 
 by the heading last proposed for inclusion in the Schedule. In this case, also, 
 the causation of the disease by a trade process is not in any given instance so certain 
 
 • that it would be just to relieve the workman from the onus of proof. It is 
 jmnecessary, therefore, to schedule this disease separately on that account. 
 
 18. Pitch Ulceration. — We find that men engaged in the handling of pitch or 
 
other tarry products, either in unloading pitch from vessels or railway trucks, or in the 
 manufacture of briquettes, or in handling " coal oil '' in the manufacture of grease, 
 are liable to suffer from warty growths, which ulcerate and occasionally become the seat 
 of epitheligmatous cancer. The growths may occur on any part of the body, 
 and are common on the face, hands, and scrotum. They commence as small nodules 
 in the skin and almost immediately begin to break down, forming an ulcer covered by 
 a crust, which gives the characteristic appearance to the so-called wart. The 
 underlying ulcer almost invariably heals up, leaving a small scar when the crust has 
 fallen off. We believe this to be the normal course, although witnesses regarded 
 the scar as the result of the primitive methods of treatment adopted by the workers. 
 The growth when in situations exposing to friction, without taking on a malignant 
 character, may become inflamed, and require removal by operation. When they 
 take on an epitheliomatous character the situation is almost invariably on the 
 scrotum. The disease then follows the usual course, involving neighbouring organs 
 and tissues and can only be arrested by free excision. Epithelioma is the least 
 malignant form of cancer, and on removal is not usually followed by a recurrence. 
 We saw men, still at their ordinary work and in good health, on whom such 
 operations had been performed several years j)reviously. The amount of incapacity 
 caused by the condition, whether in its benign or malignant manifestation, need not 
 be great. There was general consensus of opinion that the cancerous condition 
 could be prevented by scrupulous cleanliness, but we satisfied ourselves that 
 occasionally it may develop in those who have paid all reasonable attention 
 in this respect. 
 
 Particles of pitch striking the eye are prone to set up very severe inflammation 
 of the conjunctival mucous membrane and cornea. It was stated that where injury 
 occurs to the eyes by pitch " they generally do very badly." A breach of surface caused 
 by the chemical action of the pitch particle gives entrance to bacteria which induce 
 a septic inflammation involving the cornea and other structures of the eye, so 
 that the danger of loss of sight is considerable. The Committee saw a case of 
 blindness which had resulted in this way. 
 
 We have no doubt that the lesions are specific to the trades mentioned, 
 and that they should be made the subject of compensation. 
 
 19. Chimney -sweeps' Cancer. — The mortality from cancer among chimney-sweeps 
 is twice what it is among occupied males generally. The tables supplied to us by Dr. 
 Tatham, the Superintendent of Statistics, General Register Ofiice, show that for the 
 threer years, 1900-1-2, the comparative mortality figure for cancer among chimney- 
 sweeps at ages 26-66 was 133 as compared with 63 among occupied males at the same 
 ages. This excessive prevalence is certainly due to the nature of the trade, the 
 soot setting up an irritation of the skin similar to that produced by pitch or tar 
 and with similar results. "Chimney-sweeps' cancer" has been, indeed, a term long 
 in use among medical men ; but the disease as it is described in text-books is 
 epitheliomatous cancer of the scrotum or scrotal region, and epithelioma occurring 
 in other parts of the skin, as the lip, is in them very rare. Chimney-sweeps suffer 
 from malignant disease in other parts of the body in common with the rest of the 
 population, and persons who are not chimney-sweeps have been known very occa- 
 sionally to suffer from cancer of the scrotum. But cancer in the scrotal region is 
 the cause of the excessive mortality among chimney-sweeps from cancer, and it is so 
 characteristic as sufficiently to distinguish it from cancer of all other kinds. This 
 form of cancer is frequently preceded by a warty ulcerous growth ; but warts such as 
 have been described as common on the face, neck, and arms of pitch workers, are 
 much less frequently found in chimney-sweeps. It is (iesirable, therefore, to schedule 
 the disease separately as " Scrotal epithelioma." 
 
 20. Mange.— One witness, the General Secretary of the London Carmen's Trade 
 Union, suggested that this disease, occasionally contracted by men brought into 
 contact with horses, should be made the subject of compensation. We have been 
 unable to obtain medical evidence, either through that witness or from other 
 sources, that the disease incapacitates for a period of a week or more. We do not 
 recommend its inclusion. 
 
 III. — Diseases of the JEye. 
 
 21. Nystagmus. — This disease is prevalent among miners in certain districts, 
 especially where the coal seams are thin. It is due primarily to fatigue of the 
 
 4.19. B 
 
10 
 
 elevator muscles of the eves from the constrained position, in an oblique upward 
 direction, in which the " eyes have to be kept. Insufficiency of light from 
 the lamp would appear to lie a secondary but not inconsiderable cause. The muier 
 mainly affected is the hewer who works at the coal face, but deputies in low seams, 
 the on-setter in chai'ge of the cage, and others also, may, and do, suffer. The 
 objective symptom is an oscillation of the e}'es (nystagmus), the rate- varying from 100 
 to 300 times per minute, and associated with it subjectively are headache, giddmess. 
 and dancing of objects before the eyes, which cause frequently much discomfort and 
 ■occasionally incapacitate the miner entirely from work. The malady, as a rule, does 
 not occur under 30 years of age, and rarely until after 10 years from commencement 
 of work. Recovery may be expected on cessation from pit work in from 3 to 12 
 months' time, but long before this— in a few weeks, in the majority of cases— work 
 not involving the particular eye strain is possible. Cases of nystagmus, as regards 
 degree of incapacity, were classed for us by Dr. Meighan, Surgeon_ to the 
 Glasgow Eye Infirmary, in three groups : (1) those in which the patients are 
 •slightly affected and do not cease work ; (2) those in which the oscillation is 
 accompanied by giddiness, and where the men have to leave ofP their particular 
 work underground ; and (3) those where the men are obliged to cease work 
 altogether. He considered that 5 per cent, of men employed in mines would 
 represent the number who sought treatment under one or other of the three 
 classes, but that the first class would embrace most of the cases. The weight of 
 •evidence, however, was strongly in favour of the view, that no matter what stage 
 nystagmus might have reached when medical advice for symptoms due to it was 
 sought, pit work should be entirely relinquished on the ground that this course alone 
 would prevent aggravation. This view was expressed notwithstanding the fact that 
 miners, who had undergone treatment for nystagmus five or six years previously and 
 been cured, were known to have resumed their ordinary M'ork again and continued 
 in it without, so far as the witnesses knew, further injury. The data on which this 
 medical practice is based do not appear to us, from the evidence, to be entirely 
 -conclusive, and in some cases, perhaps, the advice appears to ha,ve been given as the 
 result of dogmatic statements made on the subject rather than of actual experience. 
 The importance and far-reaching character of this medical conclusion will at once be 
 apparent, when it is remembered that the most prominent point brought out by the 
 evidence in regard to the disease was that, although its existence can be easily 
 diagnosed, the symptoms are largely subjective, and there is no necessary relation 
 between the severity of the disease and the degree of incapacity. In other words, 
 •one man may exhibit a very marked oscillation of the eyes, and yet suffer little 
 discomfort, and be able and willing to continue at his work ; another may show 
 overt symptoms less acute, and yet may claim, and claim truly, that he is incapaci- 
 tated from- his usual employment. This fact may perhaps give rise to difficulty in 
 settling disputed cases of compensation. But since the only prospect of curing 
 nystagmus is for the sufferer to abandon, if not altogether, at least for a time, 
 employment below ground in badly lighted mines, it is clear that nystagmus may 
 furnish a legitimate ground for compensation, dven if the overt symptoms are 
 comparatively slight. For the patient, though he may not at the time be actually 
 unable to continue his work, ought to discontinue it if he is not to get worse ; and 
 if the result is that, under medical advice, he has to accept employment above 
 ground at a lower wage, he is, in the words of the Act, " disabled .... from 
 earning full wages at the work at which he was employed." 
 
 We recommend that miners' nystagmus be added to the Schedule. 
 
 22. £ottlemaker.f' Cataract. — Evidence relating to this ailment was given by 
 Mr. W. Robinson, Hon. Surgeon to the County of Durham and Sunderland Eye 
 Infirmary, who showed that among 37-i men engaged in the bottle making 
 industry in the district, of whom 122 were bottle finishers, eighteen were 
 admitted to the Infirmary on account of cataract in 1902, six in 1903, two 
 in 1904, and one in 1905. No case was admitted in 1906. The abnormal 
 number in 1902 was, however, due to admission of cases in order that the 
 development of this disease, about which .very little was definitely known, might 
 be watched. In his important evidence, Mr. Robinson was emphatic that the disease 
 was practically confined to bottle finishers, among Avhom it commences at a com- 
 paratively early age, and that in nearly all cases it began as a posterior cortical cataract, 
 a form otherwise rarely seen. The malady he attributes to the great heat and light 
 encountered when looking into the furnace, and its origin at the posterior pole to the 
 
11 
 
 situation here of the nodal point, where the rays falling on the lens cross and pass 
 without refraction. These two crucial points — precise form assumed, and distinctive 
 age of development — were not supported by such further evidence as we heard from 
 ophthalmic* surgeons, although it is only proper to add that their experience of 
 cataract among bottlemakers was very limited. 
 
 Mr. A. Greenwood, Secretary to the Glass Bottlemakers' of Yorkshire United 
 Trade Protection Society, furnished us with tables, most carefully compiled, which 
 are printed in the evidence. They bring out the striking fact that (omitting 
 traumatic cataract as being an accident) among 114 members superannuated between 
 December 1897 and December 1906, 34 men (30 per cent.) had suffered or were 
 suffering from cataract, and three others from opacity of the lens. The total member- 
 ship of the Society was somewhat over 2,000. 
 
 The Secretary of the Lancashire District of the Glass Bottle Makers' Association 
 has written to us to the effect that of the 1,000 members of his Society, 36 are on the 
 superannuation fund, and six of these on account of cataract. The Secretary of the 
 Pressed Glassmakers' Society, Gateshead, informs us that among 510 members, 33 
 have been superannuated, four of these from the same cause. These latter figures 
 were sent to us when our inquiry was almost completed. 
 
 The employers who appeared before us, on the other hand, attached small 
 importance to the ailment, and some were ignorant of its existence as a disease- 
 belonging to the trade. This is no matter for surprise, for the cases are small in 
 nuniber in proportion to the men employed, and exceedingly small in individual 
 factories. 
 
 We deemed it would be useful to make the closest inquiry into the cases brought 
 to our notice by the Yorkshire Bottlemakers' Society, have seen the medical man who- 
 had certified to the incapacity, and have searched the record of cataract cases admitted, 
 dm^ing the three years 1903-1905, to the General Infirmary at Leeds, Avhich is in 
 propinquity to a number of places where this industry is carried on. The result was 
 not only to confirm the accm'acy of the figures, but also to satisfy us that, in addition 
 to the cases enumerated, a noticeable number of other glass bottle finishers, gatherers 
 and blowers, who for one reason or another could not appear upon the list, had 
 either been operated on for cataract, or were sufi'ering from it. 
 
 On the total for the three years 1903-1905 of the cases of senile cataract 
 among men admitted to the General Infirmary, Leeds, about one out of every 
 fourteen was a bottle finisher, blower, gatherer or founder. " The only industry 
 (except the indefinite class entered as " labourer ") showing a greater number was 
 mining — about one out of eleven. 
 
 We have endeavoured to ascertain what were the numbers of miners and of bottle 
 makers respectively in the population from whom the patients in the Leeds Infirmary 
 were drawn, in order that we might compare the average incidence of cataract in the 
 two classes ; but we have not been able to arrive at any figures that are properly com- 
 parable. Nor have we succeeded in finding any statistics which show the incidence 
 of cataract in the general population, except some figures relating to Germany, 
 which appear in the Appendix. The question, however, is one in which statistics are 
 of the first importance. We cannot regard it as estabHshed that the form which 
 cataract assumes among the workmen in this trade has symptoms sufficiently distinc 
 five to allow its trade origin to be determined in individual cases. But we have 
 little doubt that cataract is a trade disease among bottle- workers in the sense that it is 
 unduly prevalent in that trade. If it were scheduled, the employers would not only 
 have to compensate the cases which were due to the trade conditions, but also the 
 cases not so due, for they could not disprove a trade origin in those cases. If it 
 were not scheduled, the workmen who are not entitled to compensation would 
 not be able to claim it, but the others Avho are so entitled would also be unable to 
 claim it. If it were scheduled, but the burden of proof imposed on the workman, the 
 effect would, we believe, be almost equivalent to not scheduling it at all, for the 
 instances would be extremely i^are, if indeed they ever occurred, in which the workm_an 
 could prove to a Court that the cataract in his particular case had a trade origin. 
 
 We are of opinion that if cataract was found many times, for example, ten 
 times, as frequently among bottle-makers as among other people, the disease should 
 be scheduled, even though in one case in ten the employer would be required to 
 pay compensation to a man whose disease would have occurred had he never been 
 employed in that trade. On the other hand if it occurred only twice as often, we 
 consider that it would not be just to schedule it, for the employer would be paying 
 without due cause as often as with due cause. 
 
 419 T- 2 
 
12 
 
 The evidence on this subject has been collected, for the most part, towards the 
 conclusion of our inquiry. The statistical investigation which we find to be essential 
 to enable a well-founded decision to be reached, seems likely to occupy some time. 
 
 In view of the fact that the Workmen's Compensation A(;t conies into operation 
 on 1st July, that a number of trades will be closely affected by the recommendations 
 of our Report, and that many dispositions will need to be made before that date by 
 Insurance Companies and others, we are unwilling to delay the pubKcation of our 
 Report for the sake of allowing these investigations to be undertaken. We would 
 therefore recommend that our inquiries into the comparative incidence of this disease 
 among glass- workers and among the rest of the population should be carried further, 
 and that if, as we think is likely to be the case, it is found that the excess of cataract 
 cases in that industry is sufficiently marked, the disease, although its trade origin 
 cannot be differentiated in individual cases, should none the less be added to the 
 Schedule. 
 
 2:J. Injury to the Eyes, from Repeated Impact of Fragments of Metal. — The general 
 Secretary of the Boilermakers' and Iron and Steel Shipbuilders' Society expressed 
 the opinion that workmen employed in shipbuilding and similar trades were liable to 
 injury to the eyes, not only from the impact of a fragment of metal at a particular 
 moment (which would be an " accident "), but also from repeated impacts of 
 such particles continued over a prolonged period. No medical evidence was tendered 
 in support of this contention, although asked for by the Committee, and we do not 
 think that the existence of any eye disease due to this cause is established. 
 
 24. Injury to the Eyes from Electric Welding. — Cases of such injury have occurred, 
 due to the intensity of the light produced in the process. We have had no 
 evidence, however, that incapacity, when it occurs, lasts for longer than a few days ; 
 and it appears that the injury can be easily avoided, and is in fact now avoided 
 by the use of protective glasses by the workmen. In these circumstances there 
 is, we consider, no valid reason for adding it to the Schedule. 
 
 IV. — Diseases of the Respiratory Systejj. 
 
 !25. Bronchitis. — We have received much evidence to show that workmen 
 exposed to certain kinds of dust and to the fumes of certain gases are specially 
 susceptible to bronchitis. We cannot doubt that this ailment often has an industrial 
 origin among dock labourers handling dusty cargoes, workers in some of the processes 
 in flax mills, chemical workers who may inhale the fumes of chlorine or other irritating 
 gases, tin-plate Avorkers exposed to the fumes of hydrochloric acid gas and to dust, 
 brass workers exposed to the fumes of deflagrating zinc and to dust, and men in 
 other employments whose respiratory system may be affected by similar deleterious 
 influences. Dr. Reynolds, of the Manchester Royal Infirmary, in his valuable 
 evidence, expressed the opinion that a skilled practitioner might detect certain 
 subtle differences between the symptoms of bronchitis due to the inhalation of dust 
 and those of bronchitis due to other causes. This view, however, was not shared 
 by the many medical men whose opinion on the point we invited. We cannot find 
 that there is any sufficient means of differentiation that would enable the bronchitis 
 which is of industrial origin to be distinguished in practice in individual cases, and 
 for that reason we find ourselves unable to advise its inclusion in the Schedule. 
 
 26. ">?% Cough.'" — Cough due to slight chronic infiammation of the bronchial 
 tubes, induced by the extremely fine state of division into which basic slag has to be 
 ground, was described to us as common among the mill workers engaged in this 
 industry. This illness has some distinguishing features, and may be held to be 
 specific to the employment, but it cannot be included in the Schedule for the 
 reason that the evidence shows that it does not incapacitate for more than one or 
 two days, 
 
 27. Pneumonia. — We have heard evidence to the effect that one of the ways 
 in which the harmful consequences of inhalation of mineral dust may show themselves 
 is pneumonia. Among workers in slate mills a low form of lobular pneumonia, 
 liable to recurrence and indistinguishable from the ordinary form, seems sometimes to 
 b3 a preliminary stage in the development of fibroid phthisis. 
 
13 
 
 Basic slag bears an evil name in the causation of pneumonia, but the evidence we 
 heard was inconclusive that basic slag workers in Middlesbrough suffer from it in much 
 greater degree than the general population of that town, where, indeed, pneumonia 
 is excepticfnally prevalent. In any case, so far as we are aware, the disease presents 
 no distinguishing symptoms, and accordingly there is no possibility of proof whether 
 or not any individual case was of industrial origin. 
 
 28. Phthisis and Pulmonary Fibrosis. — A large part of our inquiry has been 
 directed to the investigation of the diseases variously known as "miners' phthisis," 
 " stone masons' phthisis," " potters' rot," " grinders' rot," and the like. To the 
 difficult problem presented by these diseases we have given close and anxious 
 consideration. 
 
 The pulmonary disease manifests itself in three kinds or forms — as ordinary 
 tuberculous phthisis, acute or chronic ; as " fibroid phthisis," and as a mixed form 
 when a tuberculous process is engrafted sooner or later upon the fibroid. Fibroid 
 phthisis is always a slow disease. It consists in a chronic re-active inflammation 
 around the many minute foci of dust inhalation, which by coalescence gradually 
 invades large areas, impairing and strangling the proper lung tissues in corresponding 
 measure. Again, a lung so impaired is very apt to harbour bacilli, especially the 
 bacillus of tubercle, by the influence of which it may be still further destroyed. Thus 
 both fibroid phthisis uncomplicated and fibroid phthisis with the supervention of 
 tubercle are in their nature occupational diseases. 
 
 Moreover, there is little doubt that ordinary tuberculous phthisis prevails 
 excessively among workers in gritty dusts, and that this excess is in some measure due 
 to the injurious influence of such dust on the lungs of the workmen. 
 
 To consider first fibroid phthisis : the features of this disease, as induced by the 
 inhalation of dust, have been described by many medical authors, attested by the 
 witnesses who have appeared before us, and verified by the medical members of the 
 Committee on our visits to ganister mines and grinding shops. The first symptom is 
 ■a cough which insidiously, and for awhile almost imperceptibly, becomes habitual. At 
 first in the morning only, it gradually becomes more frequent during the day, and 
 ■expectoration, nominal at the beginning, becomes more marked, though not profuse 
 until the latter stages of the disease. Leaving out of account the more rapid progress 
 of the disease in tin and gold miners, these symptoms of a negative phase of purely local 
 •damage may last for years — ten or fifteen or even more — without advancing to such a 
 ■degree as to throw the workman out of employment or even to cause him serious incon- 
 venience. At soma period, however, rarely less than ten yeai'S, and frequently more than 
 twenty, of continuous employment, in a like imperceptible manner the breathing gets 
 shorter, and the patient finds himself less and less capable of exertion. Yet, even 
 w^hen the cough and dyspnoea have reached a considerable degree, there are no signs 
 of fever, as is the case with pulmonary tuberculosis ; the flesh does not fall and the 
 muscles retain their strength and volume. Thus even at a period when the malady 
 is fully established the general health may be but little impaired, and the patient may 
 not be compelled to cease work. Herein fibroid phthisis presents a well-marked 
 difference from pulmonary tuberculosis ; and even if, as we have said, the disease 
 becomes complicated with tubercle, yet the rate of progress may be determined rather 
 by the character of the primary than of the secondary disea,se, though usually the 
 supervention of tubercle hastens the sufferer into a more rapid consumption. 
 
 On examination of the chest during the period of fully estabhshed fibroid disease 
 before its crippling or exhaustive stage, yet when cough, shortness of breath and 
 imperfect aeration of the blood are notable enough, the physical signs are few and 
 indefinite. Indeed it is in this very want of parallel between the symptoms and the 
 signs of disease, and in the absence of serious bodily indisposition that negative 
 evidence of the form assumed is to be obtained. The chest is remarkably motionless, 
 the man seems deaf to the request to draw his breath, and the murmur of air entering 
 and leaving the lungs is almost inaudible. A faint wheeze or click may be the only 
 positive sign to the ear of the inward deterioration. 
 
 Diagnosis of the mixed cases, unless the infection by tubercule be very early and 
 predominant, may present no little difficulty even to an expert who has before him 
 the history of the individual, for the long period of chronic change, even in 
 .comparatively advanced stages, still may present the signs and symptoms of slow 
 obliteration rather than of ulceration of the lungs. 
 
 A still greater difficulty of diagnosis, which in early stages may never get beyond 
 
14 
 
 surmise, is between fibroid phthisis of other origin and chronic bronchitis with 
 " asthma," or to use the technical term— emphysema. Fibrosis from other causes i& 
 hoAvever generally unilateral— one lung only being affected, whereas dust attacks 
 both lungs impartially. It is thus from chronic bronchitis and emphysema that 
 distinction is most difficult. The personal observations of the medical members_ ot 
 the Committee led them to regard the lungs affected with fibroid phthisis as differing 
 from emphysema in the form of the chest, in the relative position of the lungs to other 
 organs — those of emphysema being over-expanded and those the seat of fibroid 
 phthisis tending to retraction ; and in the difference of respiratory murmur, which in 
 fibroid phthisis is notabl}- silent, the inability to inspire being remarkable, whde m 
 emphysema the murmur, especially in expiration, is prolonged. The kind of 
 expectoration also, which in uncompHcated emphysema is not distinctively purulent,, 
 and, in fibroid phthisis, the appearance under the microscope of the grit in the most 
 intimate expectoration, together with the history of the case, the age of the patient,, 
 the absence or deficiency of other characters of constitutional deterioration, as, for 
 instance, in the arteries, which are apt to accompany emphysema, would, generally 
 speaking, guide the physician experienced in such cases to a right conclusion. 
 
 To this account of the symptoms we may add that if in an early stage of fibroid 
 phthisis the workman leaves the dusty employment for work in agriculture or in 
 other occupation in air free from irritating particles, the disease may be practically 
 arrested ; that is, although the part affected may proceed to obliteration, the disease 
 would not extend to other parts of the lung, and the j)ortion destroyed would be 
 negligible as a. factor of health and capacity. 
 
 Ordinary tuberculous phthisis cannot, of course, be regarded as a disease specific 
 to any employment. It is widely prevalent throughout the population. We 
 consider, however, that fibroid phthisis, in its later stages, and when the history of 
 the case is known, can be clinically distinguished from tuberculous phthisis. We 
 regard it as established that fibroid phthisis is a disease specific to the employment 
 in the following trades : — 
 
 (1) Grinders, continuously using either grindstones or emery-wheels for the- 
 abrasion of metals, especially steel. It must be understood that men 
 whose employment is that of engineers, but who occasionally, and for 
 comparatively short periods, use a grindstone to sharpen their tools or 
 to file down a piece of metal to be fitted, cannot be considered specially 
 liable to this disease. 
 
 (2) Potters engaged in certain processes. 
 
 (3) Masons employed on certain kinds of stone, especially if not working in 
 
 the open air. 
 
 (4) Tin miners, many of whom, in recent years, however, have contracted 
 
 the beginnings of the disease while working in the exceedingly 
 unhealthy conditions of the gold mines of the Transvaal. 
 
 (5) Ganister miners, and to a less extent, men employed in certain processes 
 
 of ganister brick-making. 
 
 In the case of men employed in slate quarries and in the works where slate is 
 sawn and dressed, the incidence of fibroid phthisis has been established in some 
 instances. 
 
 A case of typical fibroid phthisis in a man who had been employed in the working, 
 of asbestos was brought to our notice. We enquired from the Parliamentary 
 Committee of the Trade Union Congress whether they could furnish us with further 
 information as to the prevalence of the disease in this trade, but they were unable to 
 do so. 
 
 We are clearly of opinion that coal miners are not liable to fibroid phthisis, and 
 although cases of anthracosis — using the term to mean cases in which the lung is 
 charged with coal-dust — are commonly met with, we cannot find that in any one that 
 condition has proved to be a contributory cause of death. 
 
 Ironstone miners also do not appear to suffer from the disease. We have made 
 careful inquiries into the incidence of fibroid phthisis in the boot trade and in flax- 
 mills, but we find that the cases of phthisis occurring among persons employed in 
 those industries are cases commencing as bronchitis and subsequently developino- 
 tuberculosis, which are often due to infection, to bad ventilation in the homes, 
 or to chills contracted through wearing insufficient clothing when passing from the 
 temperature of the factory to that of the open air, and which cannot; in any case be 
 distinguished as being caused by the nature of the employment. 
 
15 
 
 Dr. Tatham, the Superintendent of Statistics at the General Register Office, has 
 kindly supplied us with figures showing the comparative death rates from the various 
 diseases of the respiratory system and from other diseases among the general 
 population «and among the men employed in certain selected occupations. The tables 
 will be found in the Appendix. It has not been possible, however, to separate the 
 death rates from fibroid phthisis from those of other diseases of the respiratory 
 system, since medical men do not as a rule distinguish that disease when certifying 
 the cause of death. There are, indeed, no statistics of any kind to be obtained from 
 any quarter, except perhaps the death returns in limited areas of tin and ganister mining, 
 which show the degree to which fibroid phthisis prevails in the trades that are liable 
 to it. The classification of occupations in the Registrar General's returns does not 
 •correspond also with that of the trades in which fibroid phthisis is prevalent. For 
 instance, it is not possible to draw any indication of the death rate from respiratory 
 diseases among stonemasons from the death rate which is tabulated for the much 
 larger class of " bricklayers, masons, builders." 
 
 The following facts, however, can be deduced from Dr. Tatham's tables. In the 
 three years 1900-1-2, in England and Wales, among a given number of males, aged 
 25 to 65 years, in the general population, there died 1,000 persons from all causes ; 
 ■of these 1 86 died from phthisis, and 21 died from diseases of the respiratory system 
 other than phthisis, bronchitis, pneumonia, and pleurisy. Owing to the want of 
 uniformity in this particular in the method of certifying, some cases of fibroid 
 phthisis will be returned under the former head, some under the latter. The second 
 "figure will include besides fibroid phthisis a few of the rarer diseases of the respiratory 
 system. For our purposes we must add the two together, and we then find that 
 among the given number of men of those ages belonging to all classes, 207 died of 
 phthisis and fibroid phthisis, together with some comparatively scarce diseases. The 
 corresponding figure among "potters, earthenware, &c., manufacturers" is 392; 
 among " cutlers, scissors makers," 576 ; and among tin miners the remarkable 
 figure of 1,257. Among agriculturists, on the other hand, the class which lives under 
 conditions the least predisposing to these diseases, we have what may be termed 
 a " natural " mortality figure of 96 — a figure largely reduced from the corresponding 
 figure a decade before. Roughly speaking, therefore, the death rate from 
 these diseases among males, aged 25 to 65, was in those years twice as high among 
 the general population as among agriculturalists, four times as high among potters, 
 six times as high among grinders, and thirteen times as high among tin miners. 
 
 We hold the opinion, upon the evidence we have discussed, that fibroid phthisis 
 is a specific and sufficiently distinguishable trade disease aff'ecting the industries 
 which we have named, and we consider that, on the principles of the Workmen's 
 Compensation Act, the employers might properly be required to pay compensation 
 to their workpeople who contract it. 
 
 Two difficulties, however, still present themselves. The first is not insuperable. 
 It arises from the fact that since this disease is very slow in its development, and 
 since the compensation charge would be a heavy one, it would not be right to lay the 
 whole of the burden on the employer or employers under whom the workman had 
 been serving during the twelve months prior to the incapacity, the parties who alone 
 would be liable under the Industrial Diseases Section of the Act. That section, 
 however, provides for its own modification by an order of the Secretarj' of State in 
 respect of any diseases added to the Schedule. It would therefore be possible to 
 require all the employers under whom the workman had served in the dangerous 
 trade during a period of five years, unless they could disprove their liability, to share 
 the burden of compensation ; and it could be apportioned among them by the m.ethcd 
 already provided in the Act. The procedure, it is true, would be complicated 
 and far from convenient ; but if this were the only obstacle that stood between these 
 victims of dangerous trade conditions and the compensation to which they would be 
 entitled, we should not hesitate to recommend that this procedure should be followed. 
 But the second difficulty is of a far graver character. 
 
 It will be clear from the description that has been given of the usual course of 
 this disease that before the moment comes when its nature can be definitely diagnosed, 
 some years may elapse during which the patient suffers from bronchitic or 
 asthmatical symptoms which are in no way distinctive. No one can tell with 
 certainty whether they are the preKminary signs of fibroid phthisis or whether they 
 are not. A workman in one of the trades in question may, like other people, suffer 
 ■occasionally from a cough in the winter months, or be incapacitated for a time by an 
 -attack of bronchitis ; it by no means follows that if he remains in the trade he Avill be 
 
10404. 
 
 16 
 
 the subject of fibroid phthisis, or in more than a slight and negligible degree. Indeed, 
 in what is i)robablv the majority of such cases, the workman does remain in the trade 
 and does not suffer from' fibroid phthisis either at all or to any miportant extent 
 We have had to consider what would be the effect on the prospect of employment of 
 such men if employers were made liable to pay half wages during the remamder of 
 the workman's life, or a sum equal to three years' wages on his death, should fibroid 
 phthisis in fact supervene. . 
 
 The disease stands on a diff'erent footing from all those which are now included in 
 the Schedule, or which we recommend should be added to it. In no other case 
 is there a long preliminar}- period during which there are symptoms which may, 
 on the one hand, be arrested or disappear, or which may, on the other hand, 
 become graver and ultimately declare themselves as the disease for which 
 compensation is payable. Even in lead poisoning, which offers the nea,rest 
 analogy, the cases are very rare where there is any prolonged uncertainty 
 whether the worker is poisoned or is not. Moreover, the majority of 
 cases of lead poisoning cause only a short incapacity and involve no heavy charge 
 for compensation. But in every case of cough or bronchitis among workers in the 
 trades we are now considering there will be uncertainty whether or not the symptoms 
 will prove the preliminary to a disease which may be an incurable disease and which 
 will almost always involve the payment of a large sum in compensation. It is obvious 
 that employers will have a strong inducement to dismiss or to refuse to engage any 
 workmen who show these symptoms. 
 
 If such men were able to claim compensation for loss of employment under these 
 conditions, the fact would serve as a deterrent to the employers and might enable the 
 men to keep their situations. But it appears impossible to devise any means by which 
 such compensation could be secured to them. They could not claim it on the ground 
 that they were suffering from fibraid phthisis, because the cases we are considering are 
 those in which the distinctive symptoms of that disease have not yet appeared. They 
 could not claim it on the ground that they had been dismissed because of their 
 liability to the disease, for if such a claim were sanctioned by the law employers 
 could give other reasons, or refuse to give reasons, for the action they took. 
 
 If, again, the effect of scheduling fibroid phthisis would be no more than the 
 elimination — though perhaps prematurely — from these dangerous trades of men who, 
 if they stayed in them, would sooner or later contract that disease, it might be held 
 that, although some unnecessary hardship would be caused, the process would be in 
 the long run in the best interest of the men themselves. But the elimination, if it 
 took place at all, would extend far more widely than this, for the number of men who 
 show symptoms which may possibly develop into fibroid phthisis is much larger than 
 the number of those who will ultimately suffer seriously from the disease. 
 1020. The employers who appeared before us were almost unanimous on this subject. 
 
 One of the representatives of the ganister trade, for instance, said : 
 
 lObO. One of the first things it would be necessary for the company to do would be to have every mani 
 
 examined, and ascertain whether he had even the beginning of the disease upon him, and then I do not know 
 what the result would be. 
 
 What you have wished to explain is this ; the result of placing this disease in the Third Schedule to the 
 Workmen's Compensation Bill might be to bring about the wholesale dismissal of the men 1 — I am afraid 
 that that is the only course that would be open to us. We do not want to do it. If we had to dismiss 
 these men it would paralyse our business for a time. There is no doubt about that, and, if we did not 
 dismiss them, we should be taking over a liability that would be very serious. 
 
 10968. A witness speaking on behalf of the Engineering Employers' Federation said : 
 
 That is really a question whether by extending this compensation generally you do not directly force the 
 employer to do such things. I believe that a good deal of the non-employment is caused in that way. The 
 men say we do not care about employing men who are either old or in any way defective physically, because 
 they are liable to land us in claims under the Compensation Act, and it is not at all unlikely, if an employer 
 saw doubtful symptoms, he would dismiss the man. Of course, if there were decided symptoms of the disease, 
 the man would have a claim, and it is not at all unlikely that the employers would like to have medical, 
 examination compulsory of all men who are taken on. It works both ways. 
 
 One of the representatives of the Boot and Shoe Manufacturers' Federation., 
 speaking of phthisis generally, said : 
 
 There is one point I omitted to mention, and that is, what a serious matter it would be for the 
 workpeople themselves if this disease were scheduled, because every manufacturer would be bound to 
 have the workpeople examined periodically, and if there was the slightest symptom of weakness they 
 would have to go. 
 
 We received similar evidence from others who spoke from the employers' point 
 of view. Nor was it only from that standpoint that this aspect of the problem was- 
 
ir 
 
 urged upon our attention. Dr. Haldane, for example, whose impartiality in such 
 matters will not be questioned, was asked whether in his opinion any practical 
 difficulties would arise if this disease were scheduled. He answered : 
 
 I think there would be very serious difficulties, and that they would tell very heavily against the men. 3100-2 
 Will you explain why 1 — What would happen, I am sure, in the case of the mines in Cornwall, for 
 instance, would be that they would not employ men who had worked for a long time previously in mines, 
 and particularly men whom they suspected of having done dangerous work abroad. There are a great many 
 men, first-rate miners, who come home to Cornwall from India, the Transvaal, and various other countries. 
 
 Would they say "You men are in a condition in which phthisis is likely to break out, and then we 
 shou!d have to compensate you, therefore we will not employ you" 1 — Yes, 
 
 Dr. Oliver, the author of the volume on " Dangerous Trades," and a member 
 of the Departmental Committee on Dangerous Trades, of which Mr. H. J. Tennant, 
 M.P., was Chairman, was examined on this point as follows : — 
 
 There would probably be many men now employed in ganister mines, or as stonemasons, or in other 10649-55.- 
 trades, who each winter have attacks more or less severe of bronchitis, which might develop in the course 
 of time into fibrosis, but which, on the other hand, might not ; do you think it possible lo say in the case 
 of those men whether it will develop into fibrosis or not '? — It is not possible. 
 
 Therefore, it would be impossible for them to claim compensation for fibrosis, or its preliminary 
 symptoms 1 — I think so. 
 
 On the other hand, the employer would know if it did develop into fibrosis he would be liable to pay 
 compensation if the Home Secretary schedules it 1 — Yes. 
 
 In those circumstances, do you think it would be to the interest of the work-people to schedule 
 fibrosis ; do you think they would gain more or lose more ? — In North Country mining districts, away 
 from the ganister mines, it would be no gain to them at all. 
 
 I am considering the trades which I have mentioned — ganister mining, tin mining, grinding, and 
 stonemasons' or potters' work. What do you say, the point being the wholesale dismissal of suspected, 
 men 1 — That is a very serious question to give an answer to, because there are so many things leading up 
 to bronchitis. I do not think you can deal with it just in that general way. The fibrosis of the lungs in a 
 gold miner is typically developed, and is quite a diff'erent thing from what the ordinary practitioner sees- 
 amongst miners generally. It is not the same thing at all, and there is very little bronchitis accompanying 
 it. The symptoms are so difierent, the man is short of breath, he has sometimes no physical signs, and one 
 is struck with the great disparity between the absence of physical signs or the comparative fewness of the 
 physical signs and the amount of difficulty in breathing and distress. 
 
 Still there is a stage, is there not, in the development of the disease when its symptoms are not 
 characteristic "i — In the early stages particularly. 
 
 That is the stage in which possible danger to the workmen may be, not a physical danger, but an 
 economic danger of losing his employment for fear, on the part of the employer, of his being made a charge- 
 upon him for the rest of Lis life for compensation for fibrosis. Have you considered, speaking as you do with 
 great expert authority on the question of industrial diseases, whether it would be more in the interests of 
 the working classes in those trades which are likely to develop fibrosis to schedule this disease or not to 
 schedule it t — I do not know how to reply to that question on the spur of the moment. It is a very difficult 
 problem, and requires careful consideration. If you took men away from their work at that particular stage, 
 I do not know that you would have any guarantee that you would check the fibrosis — the thing may be 
 deeper than the bronchitis would lead you to infer, and the damage may be already well on the way. It 
 may have been inflicted, and you would have the changes following. It would be a hardship, I think, in 
 many instances, to simply dismiss a person bt cause he has bronchitis, and yet, on the other hand, ttiere is 
 no doubt that bronchitis is one of the first conditions noticed, not necessarily with expectoration, because it 
 is not accompanied by expectoration sometimes at all. I really could not say which would be the better 
 thing to do for these people, whether to schedule it or not. You will have a great many people thrown out 
 of employment, and what are they to do, becaus5 so many trades are dusty. 
 
 By the witnesses who spoke on behalf of the workmen in these trades differing 
 views were expressed. The Secretary of the Operative Masons' Society recognised 
 the difficulty, but thought the disease should nevertheless be scheduled. 
 
 rsbM"-' Admitting for the moment for the sake of discussion that fibroid phthisis is a trade disease among stone- ] 0301-4. 
 masons, and that numbers of them die of it, and that it would be quite reasonable for the employers to be 
 made to pay compensation, the point I put is, is it to the advantage of the stonemasons — the working men — 
 to include this disease, with the possibility that no one may ever get the compensatiom, because men who 
 showed the preliminary symptoms would straightway be dismissed 1 — Yes, but my society is of opinion that 
 we should try to get it incorporated in the Act under dangeroui disease. We have taken a resolution on it. 
 
 Have your society considered that point 1 — I think so. I agree with you that in many respects it would 
 be detrimental to us, and an employer would be very careful not to employ men who looked anything like 
 consumptive. I quite agree that it would have that effect, but at the same time my society thinks it should' 
 be included in the dangerous diseases for compensation. I think they have studied both sides of the question. 
 
 Are you aware that it has been said that the Workmen's Compensation Act already prevents men who 
 have some physical defect, such as the loss of one eye, or who may be infirm in some way or other, from 
 getting employment because employers will not take the risk of their having an accident ? — I belie^ e that 
 is so. 
 
 Would not that be very greatly increased in the case of phthisis, which is unlike lead poisoning and 
 anthrax and phosphorus poisoning, because it is a diseise which takes a longer period to develop. You 
 cannot say a man has got the disease, and he must stop work and get compensation, as there might be five^ 
 
 419. 
 
18 
 
 «ight, or ten years of preliminary symptoms; and during that period ha. may be liable to iismissal and lose 
 bis work altogether, might he not 1—Yes, we have seen that diflSouky. Ours is casual employment, too. 
 One of our men may work three or four months in a year for one firm, and three or four months for_ another 
 firm. We have very few who are employed permanently. We have reviewed these difficulties, and 
 my society is anxious that it should be included if the Committee can see their way to do it. 
 
 The representatives of the National Amalgamated Society of Male and Female 
 Pottery Workers held similar views. 
 
 There is another point, which has rather exercised the minds of the Committee, which I should like 
 your view upoa. Suppose potters' asthma or the disease wMeh goes by! that.name were scheduled undfir the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act, and the employer was liable to pay, perhaps, half wages to a man for many 
 years until he died, do not you think the employers might get rid of aU the inea in their w:oi:ks who 
 «howed symptoms of the disease before they were incapacitated "i — We have looked at that difficulty 
 somewhat, but our society thought that at some time or other, when any reform had to be made, somebody 
 had to suffer, and if the older men to-day have to suffer we shall have to abide by it, but we shall be doing 
 a good thing for the people that are to come after us. 
 
 We should be very glad to know whether on the whole you are ipreparei to face the riskqf men being 
 diachargei through this liability to compensation falling on the employer ? — My society, has authorise.d ua to 
 say that we are prepared to take the risk. 
 
 Dr. Robert Owen, who gave evidence in support of the proposition that slate 
 quarrymen suffer from pulmonary diseases through their employment was, however, 
 of an opposite opinion on this part of the question. 
 
 The disease of which we are speaking at thi3 minute is fibroid phthisis, arising from dust, is it not 1 
 — Yes. 
 
 If that or something equivalent to it was put into the schedule,, do you anticipate at once considerable 
 hardship to the old men ? — To the younger men. We find the disease mostly in the middle-aged men. 
 
 I will put it with regard to men who have it already, and who would probably be discharged ?— 
 -Anybody with a cough or a slight catarrh might be stopped at once. 
 
 Can you suggest any means whereby this hardship could be obviated ? — Xo, I do not think I could suggest 
 -anything. 
 
 The same view was expressed by the Secretary of the Sheffield United Cutlery 
 Council, which is a federation of the Trade Unions in the Sheffield cutlery trade. 
 
 Fibrosis takes a very long period, and what the Committee are afraid of is, that while the disease is 
 in its early stiges, invariably the man would be discharged l-^-Yes, I daresay there would be that danger. 
 
 And consequently no one would get any compensation. There would be no pressure on the employer 
 to improve the conditions, and the only result would be that a considerable number of men, who might 
 not develop fibrosis at all; as a matter of fact, would be thrown out of employment 1 — Yes, I see, of course, 
 •'-there is that danger. 
 
 Do you think' it is a real danger? — I think it is a real danger. 
 
 iLooking at it solely from the point of view of the workmen, admitting that the workman has a perfectly 
 just claim against the employer for compensation for fibrosis, and that Parliament would be fully 
 entitled to caiU upon his employer to pay, do you think, taking all the circumstances into consideration, 
 it is to the advantage of the workmen in the trade that this disease should ba scheduled 1 — I am rather 
 inclined to think not. I think it would be scarcely to the workman's advantage. I can see many disadvan- 
 tages, and it is not the same as an accident. 
 
 We have considered whether any method could be devised of scheduling the disease 
 ^hile avoiding these consequences that are said to be likely to ensue. It would be 
 possible to allow an interval of some years, during which the men now engaged in 
 these trades who show preliminary symptoms would either recover or, becoming more 
 seriously affected, would leave the employment. But this course would merely 
 postpone, it would not avoid, the dangers that are foreseen, and as the interval drew to 
 an end the difficulty would be as great as it is now. An alternative course would be 
 to provide that the compensation for fibroid phthisis should be on a lower scale than 
 that for accidents and for other diseases. Fro tanto the alleged insecurity of the work- 
 people's position would thereby be lessened; but it would, not disappear, , and the 
 purpose in view would not be fully effected. Nor could this plan be adopted, in our 
 opinioii, without legislation, -for an alteration in the scale of conipensation payable in 
 respect of a particular disease can hardly be counted a "modification" of the Industrial 
 Diseases Section such as the Home Secretary ha^ power to make.* It should ijpt be 
 forgotten, also, that apnoposal to allow men suffering from some; infirmity to contract 
 ■on to a lower scale of compensation for accidents, in order' to .better their cbancesof 
 ' secuting employment, was rejected by the House of Commons in 1906. In view of 
 these circumstances we cannot recommend the adoption of this plan. . ' 
 
 After much anxious consideration we have arrived at the cpnclusipn that work- 
 
 * Mr. A. H. Ruegg, K.C., is of opinion, however, that it might, perhaps, be so considered. 
 
19 
 
 nen, whose regular occupation exposes them to the inhalation of silicious or metallic 
 lust, and who develop fibroid phthisis suffer from a trade disease sufficiently 
 listinguishable and specific to their employment ; but that, on account of the con- 
 liderations which we have described, we cannot recommend the immediate addition 
 )f this disease to the schedule. The evidence which we have quoted cannot be 
 gnored. The matter demands more deliberate consideration than it has yet 
 'Cceived on the part of the employers and workpeople concerned. It may be 
 :hat public discussion of the question will lead to the conclusion that the fears; 
 svhich have been expressed are exaggerated. It may be that in some or all of these • 
 trades schemes of insurance will be devised which will meet the difficulty.- We 
 3onsider that it would be the more prudent course to keep in abeyance for thfe 
 bime being the question of scheduling this disease, t 
 
 V. — Ml SCELLANEOUS. 
 
 29. Glanders. — Persons, whose occupation brings them into contact with horses,. 
 isses, or mules, sometimes become affected by the disease of glanders, to which 
 these animals are liable. The death returns published by the Registrar General 
 show that during the last twenty years about four deaths annually have been due 
 to this cause. In the horse two forms are recognised, " glanders " and " farcy," the 
 Former of which is characterised by discharge from the nostrils, the latter by the- 
 Formation of nodules and abscesses in the skin and swellings along the course of the; 
 lymphatic vessels, termed " farcy buds." In man the symptoms may be acute,,, 
 with development first of a characteristic eruption on the body, and accompanierl 
 later by discharge from the nasal passages ; or they may assume a chronic form. 
 The disease is caused by a bacillus, bacillus mallei, present in the discharges, and 
 although the symptoms of the disease clinically are fairly definite, diagnosis can 
 always be verified by discovery of the bacillus. Knackers who deal only with the 
 carcase of a glandered animal rarely contract the disease, because the bacilli are 
 practically confined to the lesions and to the discharges from them, and the 
 hands of the knackers are not usually brought into contact with the discharges at all. 
 But it would be clearly an occupation disease if it occurred in a man either having 
 the care or handling the carcase of an equine animal infected with the disease^, 
 and we recommend that it should be added to the Schedule. 
 
 30. Grease is a form of blood poisoning alleged to be due to infection frone 
 horses suffering from boils, but we have been unable to obtain from the Londorsi 
 Carmen's Union, by whose representative the inatter was brought to our notice, any: 
 definite evidence, from medical men or others, with regard to it. 
 
 31. Com.pressed Air Illness. — The bodies of men, who work under conditions of 
 compressed air, dissolve an excess of air, and if they return to the ordinary atmosphere 
 without a sufficient interval to allow of gradual decompression, bubbles of nitrogen 
 a,re set free in the blood and tissue fluids, which give rise to protean symptoms such 
 IS vertigo, muscular pains, paralysis, blindness or other effects — slight, severe^. 
 Dr fatal according to the structures through which the bubbles may force their 
 way. This illness, sometimes known as " caisson disease," from the increasing 
 smployment of men in caissons for bridge building, tunneUing and other engineering; 
 svorks, is plainly due to the employment. The number of fatalities has been few,. 
 3ut cases of illness have been numerous. The onset of symptoms is always a question 
 if hours, and in so far as they are the result of a mechanical lesion from the escaping 
 Dubbles, there is little to distinguish the disease from an accident. It is doubtful, 
 biowever, whether the Courts would hold that compensation would be payable in. 
 :hese cases on the ground of " accident." 
 
 Inflammation of the ear may arise as a direct result of working in compressed 
 
 t Active efforts have been and are being made to protect the workers in these trades from the effects 
 )f dust inhalation. Special Eules under the Factory Act have been in force in the Potteries since 1898, and the 
 ividence we have received shows that the incidence of fibroid phthisis has greatly diminished in consequence;, 
 i'ollowing upon tha.E,epor.t of the Departmental Committee on the Health oi Cornish l^liners, Special Eules 
 rare imposed in 1 905 in the metalliferous mines of Cornwall and Devon. For the g mister mines also Special* 
 iules, under the Coal Mines Regulation Act, were issued in 1905. An inquiry has lately been held into- 
 he conditions of labour in the Sheffield cutlery trade, with a view to the adoption of more stringent. measures, 
 or the prevention of dust than those now in force. 
 
 419. c 2, 
 
20 
 
 air, and the ear mischief is to be expected if any inflammatory condition interferes 
 with the power of equalising the pressure inside and outside the druni by the act ot 
 swallowing. Similarly, persons, on first entering compressed air, are liable to injury 
 from ignorance of how to open their eustachian tubes, and effect this equalisation of 
 pressure. Vertigo is frequently complained of. , . 
 
 Workers in caissons are occasionally exposed to risk of poisoning by carbonic 
 oxide, arising from imperfect combustion and insufficient ventilation, by sulphuretted 
 hydrogen, and by other poisonous gases developed in the caisson itself, the symptoms 
 of which must not be confused with compressed air illness. 
 
 The symptoms of compressed air illness are largely subjective, but there should 
 be little fear of abuse on this ground. 
 
 The evidence is conclusive that, provided sufficient time for decompression is 
 allowed so as to permit the dissolved air to be given off from the lungs, the disease 
 is entirely preventible. 
 
 All workmen required to carry on their work in compressed air should be 
 entitled to claim compensation for such injuries under the general heading, " Com- 
 pressed Air Illness or its Sequelae." 
 
 32. Dilatation of the Heart. — Dilatation of the heart was described by a medical 
 witness as occurring among " roUermen " in the steel mills of South Wales. The 
 symptoms of " senile heart," as the witness df^scribcd the condition, v»'ere observed in 
 men between 40 and 50 years of age. The symptoms were shortness of breath on extra 
 exertion, and the clinical signs a peculiar murky colour of the skin, blurring of the 
 first heart sound, enlargement of the heart, and atheroma of the vessels. Temporary 
 improvement follows on rest and treatment. The , Committee had an opportunity 
 of seeing the arduous nature of the work carried on under high pressure as piece- 
 work, in the course of which some 180-200 steel plates, each weighing from 20-26 
 lbs., pass through the hands of the workmen five times in the eight hours. 
 Cases were cited by Dr. Scott of direct injury to the valves of the heart from sudden 
 violent strain which, were proof possible, would constitute the injury an accident. 
 But generally it is some violent exertion that first directs attention to pre-existing 
 illness, recognised by the medical riian as cardiac. Cases of the gradual reduction 
 of the reserve force, which ordinarily enables the heart to meet continuous 
 increased muscular exertion, may be found in any laborious occupation among men 
 who work with great intensity. These conditions cannot be said to be due to 
 the nature of any trade or trades, and consequently are not covered by the terms of 
 the Industrial Diseases Section of the Workmen's Compensation Act. 
 
 33. Neurosis due to Vibration. — Our attention was called to neurosis due to 
 vibration, caused by the use of pneumatic tools. Tremor and sleeplessness have 
 occasionally been observed in individuals, but no evidence was obtained of the 
 existence of any nervous disease from this cause which incapacitates from 
 employment. 
 
 34. Dining car Attendants' Diseases. — A witness urged that the attendants on 
 railway dining-cars were specially liable to rheumatic fever and lung diseases 
 through the alternation of temperatures to which they are subjected, and to varicose 
 veins and neurosis owing to the vibration of the cars. The statement was quite 
 unsupported by definite evidence, and we have no reason to think that it is 
 well-founded. 
 
 35. Ancemia among Photographic Workers. — At the request of the Women's 
 Industrial Council we heard the evidence of a medical man, who suggested that 
 employment for long periods in dark rooms in the manufacture of photographic 
 materials might be a cause of chronic ansemia. The witness consented to appear 
 before us only on the condition that his name should not be made public, and as we 
 are of opinion that we should not publish anonymous evidence, we find ourselves 
 debarred from printing a report of his examination. It will suffice to say, however, 
 that the contention was based on only four cases of anaemia, two of them in young 
 women and two in young men ; that the representatives oi tne Amalgamated Society 
 of Lithographic Artists, Designers, Engravers, and Process Workers, who subse- 
 quently appeared before us, many members of whose Society work in dark rooms, had 
 no knowledge of such a disease prevailing in the trade ; and that we do not regard its 
 existence as established. 
 
21 
 
 36. Illness Contracted in the Removal of Night-SoU. — It has been alleged that 
 men engaged in this work, or in the cleaning of sewers, contract erysipelas, typhoid 
 fever, blood poisoning and similar infective diseases as the result of their employ- 
 nent. We print in the Appendix a letter on this subject from Mr. H. Orbeil, 
 Secretary of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers' Union of Great 
 Britain and Ireland, and the answer to the inquiries we made into the cases in 
 Middlesbrough referred to in that letter. Evidence was also given before us by 
 Mr. Fitzmaurice, Chief Engineer of the London County Council, and Dr. R. J. Collie, 
 the Medical Examiner to the Council, whose duty it is to examine cases of sickness 
 among the Main Drainage Staff, numbering 920 men. 
 
 We are of opinion that no excessive prevalence of typhoid fever, erysipelas, 
 and the like, among night-soil men, as compared with the rest of the population, has 
 been shown to exist ; the careful records kept of the illnesses contracted by the Main 
 Drainage Staff of the London County Council are strong evidence, indeed, to the 
 contrary. Nor do these maladies, when they occur among that class of men, show 
 any distinctive features which would establish a causal connection with the employ- 
 ment. We cannot therefore advise their addition to the Schedule. 
 
 VI. — Injuries not due to Accident. 
 
 37. " Beat Hand " (Subcutaneous Cellulitis of the Hand). — This is an acute 
 inflammation of the subcutaneous tissues of the hand or palmar side of the fingers, 
 the result of friction of the pick on the hand. There is inoculation with an infective 
 poison, probably through an abrasion. The inflammatory process becomes suppurative, 
 and the products, confined by the dense skin over the palm, track in directions 
 where the resistance of the tissues is least, usually to the back of the hand, but 
 sometimes along the tendon sheaths. Except in the rare event of the inflammation 
 terminating in resolution, operative interference becomes imperative. The figures 
 of the Northumberland and Durham Miners' Permanent Relief Fund, with a 
 membership of 37,657, showed 55 cases of beat hand in 1905, with an average 
 duration of incapacity of 21-89 days, and 52 cases of the corresponding affection of 
 beat knee, with an average duration of 24 days. Complete recovery is almost 
 invariable, although a few instances were cited in which various slight deformities 
 of the fingers or hands had resulted. We are satisfied that to constitute beat hand 
 the inflammation must be acute, a fact which distinguishes it from the chronic 
 puckering of the skin known as Dupuytren's contraction. 
 
 The complaint is not limited to miners, but may occur from similar causes 
 among workmen using a variety of tools other than the pick. It is among miners, 
 however, that it is specially prevalent, and we consider that when it occurs among 
 them, compensation should be payable, unless the employer can prove that it was 
 contracted outside the employment, while in other trades the burden of proof may 
 properly rest on the workman. 
 
 38. "Beat Knee" and "-Beat Elbow." — These may be considered together. The 
 inflammation is of the same acute nature as in beat hand, but as they occur, the one 
 in connection with the patellar bursa of the knee, the other with that over the 
 olecranon process of the elbow, the condition is an acute bursitis, usually suppurative. 
 As in beat hand, there is probably septic infection through an abrasion produced in 
 kneeling or friction against the elbow. 
 
 These are in the same category as beat hand, and should equally be included 
 in the Schedule. 
 
 39. Sprained Wrist and Teno- Synovitis. — We have received evidence to show 
 that inflammation of the synovial lining of the wrist joint and tendon sheaths may 
 occur among miners, not through accident, but through a long succession of jars 
 to the wrist due to working a pick in hard coal. A miner is incapacitated from 
 this cause for varying periods of time, in large measure dependent on the attention 
 paid to it in the first instance. The consequences of neglected sprains may be 
 serious, and lead to formation of fibrous adhesions in and round the joint. Its 
 presence can nearly always be detected by swelling of the part, and in the case 
 of teno-synovitis the constant friction of the tendons within their sheaths sets up 
 a roughening by the deposit of lymph, with consequent crepitating sensation 
 when the hand is placed over the affected part. We recommend the addition 
 
22 
 
 of this injury to the Schedule, under the designation 
 synovial lining of the wrist joint and tendon sheaths." 
 
 of "Inflammation of the 
 
 40. " Housemaid: s /uie«."— This is a colloquial name for a pre-patellar bursitis, 
 caused by kneeling. It is a less serious ailment than beat iknee among, mmers, but 
 it may incapacitate for two or three weeks, and in rare cases for a longer period. It . 
 is distinctly an < occupational disease amongi domestic servants, hut we are led by. 
 two considerations not to recommend its inclusion in the Schedule. In the iirst 
 place the employer of a domestic servant is legally obliged either to give a moBth's 
 notice or to pay a month's wages before discharge ; " housemaid's knee " very seldom 
 incapacitates for a period longer than a month, and never for a period much longer; 
 than a month. In the second place it is avoidable by the simple method of 
 kneeling on a proper mat. We have received no representations from any quarter 
 asking for its inclusion. 
 
 41. Hernia. — The evidence which we have received from authorities of 
 eminence is definitely to the effect that hernia may, though very rarely, be due to a 
 sudden strain — in which case it would be the subject of compensation, if caused by 
 the employment, as an accident. But what usually happens is that some cough or 
 particular strain brings down a little further a hernia, which has been slowly- 
 developing, so as first ^to make it prominent and attract attention. Hernia; is never ■ 
 the result of a series of strains undergone in^ the course of employment, and cannot ; 
 be regarded, among workmen in any trade, either as an industrial disease or as, an 
 injury, not being an accident, due to their, employment. In these circumstances^ 
 hernia cannot be included in the Schedule. 
 
 42. Boilermakers' Deafness. — This is unquestionably an injury due to employment,, 
 and is widely prevalent among men working in the incessant noise of the ship-building^ 
 yard or the boilermaker's shop. It does noty however, prevent a man from continuing 
 at his trade, and it cannot, therefore, give rise to claims for compensation on the; 
 ground of incapacitation. 
 
 Recommendations. 
 
 Our recommendations may perhaps be summarised most conveniently in the- 
 shape of a tabulated list, following the form which was adopted in the Third Schedule 
 of the Workmen's Compensation Act. If our proposals are accepted, the additions, 
 to that schedule might be framed as follows : 
 
 Description of Disease. 
 
 Description of Process. 
 
 Poisoning by nitro- and amido-deri- 
 vatives of benzene (dinitro-benzol, 
 anilin and others), or its sequelee. 
 
 Poisoning by carbon bisulphide or its 
 sequelse. 
 
 Poisoning by nitrous fumes or its sequelae 
 
 Poisoning by nickel caibonyl or its 
 sequelae. 
 
 Arsehic poisoning or its spquelse 
 
 Lead poisoning or its sequelae. 
 
 Poisoning by Gonioma Kamassi (African 
 boxwood) or its sequelse. 
 
 Any process involving the use of a nitro- or amido-derivative o£ 
 benzene, or its preparations or compounds. 
 
 Any process involving the use of carbon bisulphide, or its 
 preparations or compounds. 
 
 Any process in vrhich nitrous fumes are evolved. 
 
 Any process in which nickel carbonyl gas is evolved. 
 
 Handling of arsenic, or its preparations or compotirids. ' 
 
 Handling of lead, or its preparations or compounds. 
 
 Any process in the manufacture of articles from Gonioma Kamassi 
 -' (African boxwood) ' 
 
23 
 
 Recommendations — continued. 
 
 Description of Disease. 
 
 Description of Process. 
 
 'Chrome ulceration or its sequelse - 
 
 Eczematous ulceration of the skin pro- 
 duced by dust or caustic or corrosive 
 liquids, or ulceration of the mucous 
 membrane of the nose or mouth pro- 
 duced by dust. 
 
 Epitheliomatous cancer or ulceration of 
 the skin or of the corneal surface of 
 the eye, due to pitch, tar, or tarry 
 compounds. 
 
 ^Scrotal epithelioma (chimney-sweeps' 
 cancer). 
 
 Nystagmus 
 
 <jlanders 
 
 Compressed air illness or its sequelae 
 
 Subcutaneous cellulitis of the hand (beat 
 hand). 
 
 Subcutaneous cellulitis over the patella 
 (miners' beat knee). 
 
 Acute bursitis over the elbow (miners' 
 beat elbow). 
 
 Inflammation of the synovial lining of the 
 wrist joint and tendon sheaths. 
 
 Any process involving the use of chromic acid nr bi-chromate ol 
 ammonium, potassium, or sodium, or their preparations. 
 
 Handling or use of pitch, tar, or tarry compounds. 
 
 Chimney-sweeping. 
 
 Mining. 
 
 Care of any equine animal tufiering from glanders ; handling the 
 carcase of such animal. 
 
 Any process carried on in compressed air. 
 
 Mining. 
 
 Mining. 
 
 Mining. 
 
 Mining. 
 
 Conclusion. 
 
 Of the diseases which we recommend should be added to the Schedule, some are 
 seldom seen by medical men, and occasionally difficulties of diagnosis may arise. 
 We think it most desirable that the Medical Referees who will be appointed to 
 adjudicate on medical points in disputed cases should be specialists, with particular 
 knowledge and experience of these diseases. 
 
 Although we have made every effort, by announcements in the Press, by 
 communication with the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress, and 
 by inquiries from our witnesses, to ascertain the existence, in order that we might 
 investigate the circumstances, of every form of industrial disease, it may be that some 
 cases of little known ailments have escaped our notice. The Act, however, empowers 
 the Home Secretary to add to the Schedule at any time, and should further 
 diseases of industrial origin be brought to light we do not doubt that inquiries 
 will be undertaken, and, if proper, further additions made. 
 
 In the course of our inquiry many suggestions have been advocated for the 
 prevention, in one way or another, of various forms of industrial disease. All these 
 suggestions have been noted by the Factory Department of the Home Office, and 
 doubtless they will be put to the best use. 
 
 We would conclude by expressing our very real sense of obligation to our 
 Secretary, Mr. Elliott, for the painstaking and efficient service he has rendered during 
 
24 
 
 a somewhat long and laborious enquiry. For a few weeks, during which Mr. Elliott| 
 was absent on account of ill-health, the duties of Secretary were performed by^ 
 Mr. Bettany, of the Home Office, for whose capable assistance we would also express 
 our thanks. 
 
 We have the honour to be, 
 
 Sir, 
 
 Your obedient Servants, 
 
 HERBEET SAMUEL. 
 HENRY H. S. CUNYNGHAME. 
 T. CLIFFORD ALLBUTT. 
 THOMAS M. LEGGE. 
 
 FRANK ELLIOTT. 
 
 loth May 1907. 
 
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 FKESEST : 
 
 Mr. Herbebt Samttei,, icp. (Chairman). 
 Mr. Henbt Cuktnghame, c.b. 1 Mr. T. M. LEoaE, m.d. 
 
 Professor Clifeobd Allbtjtt, r.B.s. I Mr. T. E. Bettant {Acting Secretary). 
 
 Sir John Mactasyeak, m.b., called in, and examined. 
 
 1. (Chairman.) You are the President of the Royal 
 Veterinary College ? — ^I am the Principal of the Royal 
 Veterinary College, and I happen also to be Pre- 
 sident of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons 
 for this year. 
 
 2. And, of course, you have had great experience of 
 the disease of glanders ? — ^Tes, I hare had a large expe- 
 rience of glanders. 
 
 3. Could you tell me wlietlier any animals are 
 afiected by it besides horses, and, if so, what animals ? 
 — ^Well, occasionally donkeys are infected, but the 
 number of them is so small that one rarely sees a 
 case of spontaneous or naturally contracted glanders 
 in the donkey ; it is altogether an equine disease. 
 
 4. Is it as prevalent among donkeys in proportion 
 to their numbers as among horses 1 — No, 1 believe not. 
 
 5. But cases do occur ? — Well, it is well known that 
 the donkey is really more susceptible than the horse. 
 I have never myself seen, so far as I remember, a 
 naturally contracted case in the donkey. 
 
 6. It may be contracted in other ways, by infection, 
 you mean? — ^No, I mean putting aside experimental 
 cases. 
 
 7. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do you say that the donkey 
 is less Susceptible than the horse, or more so? — -It is 
 more susceptible than the horse. 
 
 8. llhe domkey is ? — ^Yes, it is more readily infected 
 experimentally, and therefore presumably in natural 
 ways also. 
 
 9. (Chairman.) And mules ?-^Probably they have an 
 intermediate degree of susceptibility. 
 
 10. But oxen are not so susceptible to it? — No. 
 
 11. Now, glanders can be transmitted to human 
 beings ?^— Yes. 
 
 12. Have you personally liad experience of such 
 cases? — No. Personally I have never seen a human 
 being affected with glanders. 
 
 4J9o. 1000— Wt. 15057. 5/07.— "Wy.'&S. 
 
 13. But you know from your general medical know- Sir J Mac- 
 ledge that cases occur? — Oh, yes. fadyean, m.b. 
 
 14. And that they are transmitted simply by infee- 26 Oct. 1906. 
 tion, by having to do with animals which are suffering ' 
 from ganders? — Yes, I think it may be taken as cer- 
 tain that all human cases are equine in origin. 
 
 15. In origin? — Equine in origin, thougjh of course 
 the possibility is not excluded that a human being 
 suffering from glanders might infect another, but I 
 have never heard it suggested that suoh a thing has 
 occurred. 
 
 16. The disease, of course, would be contracted at a 
 definite moment ; it would not be a disease of gradual 
 origin in a human being ? — ^No. 
 
 17. And, if contracted, it is a serious disease ? — ^Yes, 
 I believe tihere is a very general opinion ih.a,t it is an 
 almost invariably fatal disease in the human subject. 
 A similar opinion was until not very long ago held 
 with regard to the disease in equines ; we now know 
 that that was absolutely an error, and it is therefore 
 quite possible that there are mild cases of glanden in 
 men also, which may even pass undetected or terminate 
 in recovery. 
 
 18. But if ttie case is serious it can be clearly dis- 
 tinguishable as being glanders 1 — ^No. I believe that 
 an absolutely certain diagnosis in man probably can- 
 not be made except by bacteriological methods ; at any 
 rate, ifliat is so in a great many cases in horses. What 
 might be called the ordinary clinical characters of 
 glanders in horses are in many cases so distinctive and 
 characteristic that there is no great risk of error in 
 basing a diagnosis on these characters ; but there are 
 a great many cases in which a positive diagnosis can- 
 not be made except by showing that me glanders 
 bacillus is present in the lesions, and that I believe to 
 be the case in human glanders also. 
 
 19. But by bacteriological methods you can tell with 
 certainty whether a person is suffering from glanders ? 
 — ^Yes, with absolute certainty. 
 
 A 
 
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Sir J. Mac 
 fadycan, m.e 
 
 2C Oct. 1906. 
 
 20. Have you any knowledge of the extent to which 
 glanders prevails amongst human beings ? — Only such 
 information as appears in th,e re.turng o| the IJegistrar- 
 General, and such information as I have obtained from 
 knackers, who, one might have supposed, would be 
 exposed to quite special risks. 
 
 21. Yes ? — With regard to the incidence of glanders 
 as disclosed by the returns of the Begistrar-General, I 
 believe that the average number of cases reported 
 annually for about the last 20 years is four ; but my 
 impression is that probably a, considerable number of 
 cases are not diagnosed as glanders. 
 
 22. Being mild cases ? — No, not " being mild cases " 
 — ^I mean even fatal cases. The disease being so rare 
 among human beings, it necessarily follows that very 
 few medical practitioners have ever seen a case of 
 human glanders, and when that is the case with regard 
 to any disease, I think mistakes are likely to arise — 
 that the disease may be mistaken for other morbid 
 conditions such as are popularly called "blood poison- 
 ing," and suppurations and pneumonias, and so on. 
 
 23. Unless bacteriological tests are made? — ^Tes, or 
 unless the person making the diagnosis has had pre- 
 vious experience of cases of glanders in man. 
 
 24. Should yoni say that any particular class of per- 
 sons in the population was specially liable to contract 
 glanders ? — ^Yes, there is no doubt about that — that it 
 is grooms and ostlers and those who have to work with 
 horses who> form the bulk. 
 
 25. And knackers? — No, strange to say, there are 
 very few cases amongst knackers. Ajbout two years 
 ago I obtained information jrorn the manacgsr~of 
 Messrs. Harrison, Barber and Company, the large 
 horse slaughterers, in London here, and I believe that 
 during the last ten years they must have passed 
 through their hands nearly 2,000 glandered carcases 
 annually ; roughly speaking, in the ten years I should 
 think they have dealt with something like 20,000 cases 
 of glanders — glandered horses, the great majority. 
 
 26. {Professor Allbutt.) In how many years did you 
 say? — In ten years — somewhere between 1,500 and 
 2,000 cases annually ; the majority of these car- 
 cases are eviscerated, partially skinned, and this is 
 done by knackers, with bare anms and hands, and one 
 would have thought that they must necessarily be ex- 
 posed to very considerable risk, but I am told that 
 during these ten years not one single case of glanders 
 has ooourred amongst the employees. At the 
 Teterinary College we deal with a considerable number 
 of cases of glajiders annually, and I believe in the past 
 30 years no College servant has contracted glanders. 
 The circum-sltanc© is reaWy easily explained. Glanders 
 is not a disease in which the bacilli which are the cause 
 of it arei universally distributed thuoiughoiut the car- 
 case ; the blood, for instance, is rarely infective, arid 
 the apparently healthy tissues are generally free from 
 t\\e Iba-cilli. The bacilli are practically confined to the 
 lesions of the disease and to the discharges from those 
 lesions— tha pais that escapes from the abscesses 
 in farcy, for instance, and the nasal discharge are 
 highly infective. In the evisceration of a carcase these 
 discharges are not necessarily and not usually brought 
 into contact with the knacker's hand at all. On the 
 other hand, ostlers and grooms who are tending the 
 glandered horses with discharges are very likely to be 
 careless and not take precautions to. avoid getting such 
 discbarges on their hands, and therefore they are ex- 
 posed to very considerable risk, especially if they have 
 any abrasions about their hands, and, probably, evefl 
 apart from that, by the application of soiled fingers tc 
 their own mucous membranes. It is not even outside 
 the bounds of possibility that they might infect them- 
 selves by contaminating their own food. 
 
 27. (Chairman.) Should you say that if any person 
 Tvhose business it was to have care of horses contracted 
 glanders, the presumption was that he contracted 
 the disease in the course of his employment ?— When 
 the groom or other person contracts glanders ? 
 
 28. Yes. — I think it amounts to a practical certainty 
 that he has contracted the disease through his associa- 
 tion with a glandered horse, and in the great majority 
 of cases I believe it is quite easy to trace such associa- 
 tion. When the cases are investigated immediately, it 
 usually turns out that the man has been attending to 
 what is called a clinically glandered horse — a horse 
 -obviously glandered— with a nasal discharge for 
 instance, or a horse affected with so-called farcy, which 
 is simply glanders with lesions in the skin. 
 
 29. Would the term " glanders " be certainly inter- 
 preted by any court to cover farcy? — It is defined by 
 the orders of the Board of Agriculture now that they are 
 the same thing. 
 
 30. Would a case be possible in which a man had 
 contracted a disease which was certainly glanders, while 
 among the horses which he had been tending there was 
 doubt as to whether any of them had contracted 
 glanders? — Yes; there might be doubt as to whether 
 any of the horses were glandeired or not. It is con- 
 ceivable that a horse might infect a human being 
 although he displayed no characteristic outward symp 
 toms of the disease. 
 
 31. Although he displayed no characteristic symp- 
 toms of the disease? — Before he displayed. any — ^jusit in 
 the same way as there is reason to believe that a horse 
 affected with glanders, but not yet manifesting outward 
 circumstances, may infest a fellow horse ; but I believe 
 that that very rarely occurs. The amount of infective 
 material leaving the liody of a glandered horse before 
 he is^ visibly glandered is really small, and the chances 
 of it infecting the human attendant are proportionally 
 small — one might almpst say infinitesimah It is when 
 the horse becomes clinically glandered with a discharge 
 of material from the nose or of pus from abscesses that 
 the case becomes very dangerous to the attendant. 
 
 32. But a case might conceivably occur in which a 
 person in charge of horses contracted glanders, bnt 
 would not be able to prove in a court of law that any 
 particular horse under his care was suffering from 
 glanders ? — Yes, I believe that to be so. 
 
 33. But in your opinion there would be a very strong 
 presumption that, if he contracted glanders, and if 
 those were the only horses that he had to do with, one 
 of them must have been infected with glanders? — ^An 
 exceedingly strong presumption. 
 
 33*._ Cases of glanders, of course, among horses may 
 be mild, and the horse may recover without anyone 
 being certain that the horse had had glanders at all? 
 — That is so. 
 
 34. (Professor AUhutt.) I know. Sir John, that you 
 say that the diagnosis of glanders is partly a matter of 
 previous experience ; that applies, of course, to horses 
 as well as to men, does it not? — Yes. 
 
 35. What do you think about the use of mallein as 
 a means of diagnosis ? — In a horse ? 
 
 36. In a horse. — There is a great amount of experi- 
 ence to prove that it is of almost inestimable value in 
 the diagnosis of glanders. 
 
 37. I ask this, of course, with the very strong desire 
 to make no reflection upon anybody : — I mean, in im- 
 proving the sanitary conditions would it be desirable 
 that any more care should be taken in large livery 
 stables, for example, by the use of mallein or other- 
 wise to detect this latent form of glanders to which yon 
 refer? — Well, that is a subject which has been much 
 discussed and was considered by a Departmental Com- 
 mittee which sat a few years ago to deal with glanders. 
 While the Committee came to the conclusion that 
 mallein was an agent of grealt value (or diagnosis, they 
 did not recommend that the necessary powers should 
 be taken to compel owners to submit their horses to 
 the use of mallein, and in the meantime it is not 
 possible to enforce the use of mallein, but all are agreed 
 that it would be a great assistance to the actual suppres- 
 sion of glanders if mallein could be compulsorily em- 
 ployed on all horses legitimately suspected of having 
 been exposed to the infection — having been stable com- 
 panions of a horse proved to be glandered. 
 
 38. You have not the same advantage, of course, in 
 registration, but do you suggest that glanders has in- 
 creased or remained stationary, or has diminished ?— 
 The returns of the Board of Agriculture show that it 
 fluctuates to a considerable extent from year to vear, 
 but, as compared with twenty years ago, it has in- 
 creased. It has increased over the last five years as 
 compared with the preceding five. 
 
 39. Do you think that is due to an improvement of 
 diagnosis, or do you think that the disease is increas- 
 ing?— Well, I think partly it may be that the disease is 
 better reported, but, I think, there has also been an 
 actual increase. 
 
 40. The spray from the nostrils of the horse is 
 perhaps more important than discharges from cutaneous 
 or other superficial lesions— I mean it is more likely to 
 occur?— Yes, hut I believe experience would indicate 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 bat it is not anytking like so dangerous as the gresS 
 isoliarge brougjht into contact with the skin or wounds.' 
 
 41. As regards the improvements in diagnosis — I do 
 lot iwant, of course, to lead you away from our point,' 
 \\A you would agree that in tubercle of the lungs a 
 acteriological examination is a very important part of 
 iiagnosis ; it is, is it not?— Yes, certainly. 
 
 42. Do you think it important that the means of 
 Iiagnosis should be made more ready to the hand of 
 ihe general practitioner? It is partly a matter of 
 responsibility, is it not— ^where the responsibility lies ? 
 —Yes, but unfortunately it would not be easy to make 
 the diagnosis of glanders anything like so certain in the 
 lands of a general practitioner as the diagnosis of tuber- 
 culosis. 
 
 43. Not if he had access to your Department, for 
 instance, or a branch of your Department ? — ^Yes. The 
 difficulty arises from the fact that the bacillus itself has 
 no characters by which it can be recognised in a mer<^" 
 stained preparation for instance — it involves culture 
 and frequently experimental inoculation also. 
 
 44. I think I must not take you any further on that 
 subject ; I thought I would just go so far as that. It is 
 propagated both by inlialation and inoculation, I 
 gather from you ; is that so ? — ^No, I believe there is 
 no conclusive evidence that the disease is ever con- 
 tracted by inhalation. 
 
 45. Not even from the spray of the nostrils ? — No. 
 
 46. (Mr, Cunynghame.) This is a very rar© disease ? — 
 In horses P 
 
 47. Glandere — in man ? — ^In man, yes, a comparatively 
 r<are disease. 
 
 48. There are four cases a year?— There are four 
 recognised cases. 
 
 49. Fatal cases? — Yes. 
 
 50. And there are no cases' except fatal ones ap- 
 parently, or at least it is exceedingly rare P — No ; about 
 that we do not possess any positive information, but I 
 said that in my opinion it was hot at all unUkely that 
 there were milder cases that passed unrecognised, and 
 that there are also a considerable number of fatal casee 
 that pass undiagnosed. 
 
 51. How many people are there employed in Great 
 Britain who could be considered as employed under tha 
 Workmen's Compensation Act, employed by an employei 
 for the purposes of his trade, who would have the right 
 tO' a compensation of this diaracterP — You mean who 
 would be'exposed to the risk of contracting glanders? 
 
 52. Yes, who would have the right to compensation in 
 respect of that disease P — That I am not able to answer 
 except in this way — that glanders is an exceedingly 
 common disease in London ; London furnishes about 75 
 per cent, of all the cases of equine glanders. 
 
 53. You mean glanders among horses is very common ? 
 — -Yes. London and the Home Counties furnish, I 
 think, about 90 per cent, of all the cases. 
 
 54. How many grooms are employed in the whole 
 kingdom P — ^I was going to indicate what the distribu- 
 tion of glanders is in London among horses. It is a 
 comparatively rare disease in private stables — stables 
 which number only a few carriage horses, for instance, 
 stables of private gentlemen who keep carriage horses 
 and hacks, and so on. 
 
 55. What I want to get, roughly, is — (if you cannot 
 give it we can get it from the Registrar- Greneral's 
 returns) — how many grooms are there in the whole 
 United Kingdom. You have four cases a year — how 
 many grooms would there be to distribute those among ." 
 — ^I possess no information upon that, but I was going 
 to indicate that practically all the grooms and those 
 that work horses in all the large stables in London — all 
 cab stables, for instance, practically all the large stables 
 of public carriers, the studs of the large railway com- 
 panies — all these are permanently infected with 
 glanders. 
 
 56. The horses P— Yes. 
 
 57. But I am dealing not with the horses, I am 
 dealing with the men. It is the men I want you to 
 come to ? — The only idea I can give you as to the 
 number of men is by stating what the number of horses 
 is. 
 
 58. If you cannot give us the number, we must try to 
 get at the number in some other way ?— Yes. 
 
 59. At all events, the four men out of the thousands 
 419 
 
 and thousands of grooms employed through the country Sir J. Mac- 
 make a very small proportion, do not they ?• — Oh, yes. fadyecfn, m.b. 
 
 60. The disease is generally fatal, and therefore I .2(5 Oct 1906 
 suppose on an average they would get about £120 a ' 
 year as compensation, would not they ? I will put it to 
 
 you in this way. The whole compensation payable to 
 this class of men would not be above £500 a year for the 
 whole country, would it P — I have no opinion at all on 
 the question of compensation. 
 
 61. If a small man — a small grocer, or somebody of 
 that sort — ^had a honse, and a man to attend upon it, he 
 would have to insure, would not he, against this disease, 
 otherwise he might be hit rather heavily if his horse- 
 keeper got taken by it P — Presumably. 
 
 62. Now, if everybody had to insure, the amount 
 insured would be exceedingly small, would it not — a. 
 i&w pence would cover it P — Upon that question I have 
 really no opinion. 
 
 ' 63. Again, the mere expense of filling up the forms 
 and going to the insurance office would be probably 
 greater than the amount he would actually have to pay 
 as his quota towards insuring the amount payable to 
 the man, would not it ? — Yes. 
 
 64. Looking at all these points of view, is it really 
 worth while, with four cases in this kingdom, to create 
 the machinery which would be necessary to protect 
 all the small grocers, and, if it is to go to donkeys, 
 all the costermongers and everybody affected by this 
 through the whole country? Is it worth while to do 
 that ? — ^I really could not say ; much would depend, 
 of course, upon the expense of the machinery. 
 
 65. Quite so. You are talking very candidly. That is 
 the difficulty that strikes one ; it seems to be so very 
 small a matter, and the machinery that would have 
 to be created for it so large ? — -Yes. 
 
 66. I will put it in this way. As to the latent cases 
 of glanders that have been suggested, do you think 
 that if this disease were taken up and scheduled, more 
 cases of glanders would come to light than actually do 
 come to light P — Scheduled as a human disease P 
 
 67. Yes, scheduled as a human disease. I am speak- 
 ing entirely of the human disease in speaking of 
 glanders? — No, I do not think that many more casee 
 would come to light, because, as I have said, it being a 
 comparatively rare disease, it can seldom, be observed 
 by general practitioners ; 99 per cent, of them can neve r 
 have seen a case, when they meet one in practice. 
 
 68. {Chairman.) Am I righr in thinking that, in view 
 of the fact that if it were made a disease for which 
 compensation would he payable, there would be a strong 
 financial inducement to persons who might possibly be 
 suffering from glanders to ascertain with certainty 
 whether they were or not, and that in that way it 
 might be found that there were many more cases than 
 had previously been supposed to exist ? — I think that is 
 quite possible. It would tend to sharpen diagnosis, no 
 doubt. 
 
 69. (Mr. Cunynghame.) And yet that diagnosis would 
 be very difficult, would it not, before they were dead — 
 if they were not dead ? — No, in most cases a diagnosis 
 can be made most readily before they are dead. 
 
 70. If the man is merely ill P — When he is ill. 
 
 71. (Professor Allbutt.) By a skilled observer? — Yes, 
 by a bacteriologist. 
 
 72. (Dr. Legge.) Do you think that clinical symp- 
 toms alone would justify the diagnosis without a bac- 
 teriological examination ? — Well, I do not know exactly 
 what is meant by " justify " it, but it is quit« certain 
 that if one based a diagnosis on that only there would 
 be a considerable proportion of errors. 
 
 73. Is the bacillus more readily recognised and ob- 
 tainable from the discharge than, for instance, the 
 anthrax bacillus ? — ^No. It is much more difficult to 
 make a diagnosis in glandere. 
 
 74. Generally in anthrax I would say that the 
 clinical symptoms were so definite and pronounced as to 
 make the diagnosis sufficiently certain for the purpose 
 of saying that a person had anthrax even if there was 
 failure to find the anthrax bacillus ; and so I suggest 
 in glanders — the presence of the symptoms with- 
 out necessarily finding the bacillus would be sufficient to 
 say that a person had glanders ? — In my opinion, not. 
 If I were the person against whom a claim was going to 
 be brought I should very strongly object to being held 
 responsible unless on strict bacteriological evidence; I 
 believe the opportunity for errors is so great when the 
 
 A 2 
 
MINUTBS OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Sir J. Mac- diagnosis is feased on clinical characters alone. That I 
 fadyean, m.b. know to be the case with a considerable proportion of. 
 
 cases of equine glanders : I therefore believe that it is 
 
 -6 Oct. 1906. likely to be the same with men. The same view has 
 often been put forward by experienced veterinary 
 surgeons — that a diagnosis based on clinical characteris- 
 tics is perfectly reliable. Well, I am ready to admit 
 that when the diagnosis is made by an experienced 
 person, a man who has seen a great many cases before, 
 and it is based on clinical characters only, the chances 
 of error an> not very great, but they are always 
 existent. 
 
 75. (Chairman.) I should just like to ask you another 
 question. Is it your opinion that, with care and 
 proper precautions, it would be possible to stamp out 
 the disease of glanders in horses ? — In my opinion it 
 would be perfectly possible to stamp out glanders in 
 horses— from Great Britain. It is not so much a ques- 
 tion of " care " ; it is almost entirely a question of 
 money — the finding of money to compensate for the 
 horses that would have to be slaughtered. Glanders 
 will never be exterminated, I believe, except by what 
 is known as "the stamping-out method," in which, 
 when a case of glanders occurs, steps are taken to 
 ascertain how many other horses in the same stable are 
 already infected; and then the "already infected," 
 although apparently healthy, horses must be dealt 
 with. 
 
 76. You would not be prepared to say that it is really 
 the fault of the horse owner if any of his horses have 
 glanders ? — ^No, it would not be right to say that it is 
 the fault of the horse owner if his horse has glanders. 
 I believe that most horse owners could get rid of 
 glanders, but it would be at a very considerable sacrifice 
 — I mean it would be expensive. 
 
 77. Oases occur, I suppose — as, for instance, with 
 regard to cab owners — in which the disease of glanders 
 ^ contracted from contact with infected sources — for 
 instance, drinking fountains ? — Some people have held 
 that glanders is spread to a certain extent, or to a con- 
 ciderable extent, in that way. While not denying the 
 possibility of infection through drinking troughs, my' 
 opinion is that it is of no practical importance — ^that 
 the part which drinking troughs take in the dissemina 
 tion of glanders in London is negligible. 
 
 78. Then it is your clear opinion that it would not be 
 just to siay that if the employer of a man — ^the man 
 laving contracted glanders-^had! glanders in his stables 
 the employer was blameworthy ? — No, I do> not think it 
 would be right to say that that employer was blame- 
 worthy. If I might say so, I think the question which 
 Tzsually arises when a groom is found to have contracted 
 glanders, is, iiot whether the owner was blameworthy 
 for having had glanders in his stables, but whether he 
 was blameworthy for having asked that groom to attend 
 a clinically glandered horse — say, with a nasal dis- 
 charge, and the presence of farcy buds on his skin, 
 whi(^ conditions under the law are expected to suggest 
 " farcy " to the owner. I mean, it really is the duty of 
 an owner to suspect " glanders " when a horse has a, 
 chronic nasal discharge, or when he has eruptions 
 (abscesses) in his skin. 
 
 79. Is it your opinion that it would be a jus.t thing 
 to require the owner of a glandered horse to pay com- 
 pensation in case someone in his employ contracted 
 glanders from a horse of his? — In certain circum- 
 stances, yes. I have read accounts of cases in which I 
 think the owner was morally responsible when he had 
 had in his possession a horse that for weeks had been 
 displaying the outward clinical symptoms of glanders, 
 and had not reported it, and had kept his servant 
 attending to it without having warned him that it was 
 3, glandered horse. 
 
 80. (Br. Legge.) I should like to ask you. Sir John, 
 a question about anthrax. With reference to the 
 method of staining that you have elaborated for 
 distinguishing anthrax in animals do you know whether 
 that is equally applicable in the case of man? — I know 
 if is. 
 
 81. You know that jt is? — Yes. It is equally 
 applicable to the diagnosis of malignant pustule, but it 
 is liot applicable as a blood stain. The stain which I 
 reconmiend is only of value when the bacilli are numer- 
 ously present in the blood ; it is of no value when they, 
 are very scarce. 
 
 82. But it might be obtained in the blood of man in 
 1 nternal anthrax where they were spread numerously ? 
 — No ; I "believe in fatal cases in man the bacilli are 
 somefimes very sparsely present in the blood, just as in 
 
 the pig. This methylene blue stain is of no par- 
 ticular value in the diagnosis of such cases ; but 
 almost the finest methylene blue re-action which I have 
 ever seen was in a case of material taken from a 
 malignant pustule of man, 
 
 83. (Chairman.) How long after contact with a 
 glandered animal would the symptoms of glanders 
 in a human being appear? — Well, that depends 
 a good deal upon whether the disease ever runs 
 for a considejrable period a chronic, mild course in man, 
 as it does in the horse. About that I possess no in- 
 formation, but I think probably in most cases the 
 symptoms would set in, in man, within a few weeks 
 after infection, and, sometimes, within a week. 
 
 83*. It would not be possible for it to remain con- 
 cealed for some months ? — I believe not, before the 
 symptoms disclosed themselves in man. 
 
 84. In an acute form? — Yes, the man might have 
 been ill for some weeks before a correct diagnosis was 
 made. 
 
 85. There is no possibility at all of a man showing 
 Symptoms of glanders for the first time a year after 
 he had been in contact with the glandered horse? — ^I 
 think it exceedingly improbable. 
 
 86. Can yon tell me whether there are any other 
 diseases, apart from anthrax and glanders, which may 
 be contracted by human beings having the care of 
 animals ? — Yes ; there are quite a number of other 
 diseases, but few of them of a serious character. Foot- 
 and-mouth disease, for instance, has freqoiently been 
 contracted from animals, and various ringworms, and 
 skin diseases, and so on, but these are not fatal diseases. 
 
 87. Still, they can incapacitate for a considerable 
 period ? — Oh yes. 
 
 88. Now, " foot-and-mouth disease," for instance — :is 
 that clearly distinguishaJble as foot-and-mouth disease 
 contracted from animals? — Well, there again, I am 
 afraid I must say that possibly a practitioner in the 
 country who had never seen a case of foot-and-mouth 
 disease in man — and that would apply, I suppose to 999 
 out of a thousand — such practitioner might fail to 
 recognise that he was dealing with foot-and-mouth 
 disease. 
 
 89. - But an expert medical man could tell ? — Yes. In 
 most cases the suspicion would be suggested by the fact 
 that there was coincidently an outbreak of foot-and- 
 month disease on a farm in the neighbourhood. 
 
 90. How serious a disease is it in man ? Would it 
 make a man ill ? — ^It is practically never fatal. It is 
 an acute fever, incapacitating a man for a few weeks. 
 
 91. And mange, for instance, does that occur in 
 human beings?— Yes, but rarely. There are some 
 manges of the lower animals — of the dog, for instance— 
 that can be transmitted to humian beings; but such 
 eases are very rare. I think they are of no importance. 
 
 92. It would practically never arise from a man's 
 employment ? — No, I Ibelieye not, 
 
 93. (Professor Allhutt.) I suppose that tubercle prac- 
 tically is not carried in the course of employment from 
 animals to man ? — We know no positive evidence prov- 
 ing that, but owing to the long period of incubation in 
 cases of tuberculosis one can see that it might be diffi- 
 cult to prove this fact if it occurs. 
 
 94. I take it from you that glanders among horses is 
 very infectiotis ; it has spread to a vast extent over the 
 country ? — ^No, it has not " spread to a vast extent over 
 the country." Glanders outside of London and the 
 home counties and one or two large towns, notably 
 Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow, is 
 a very rare disease. 
 
 95. Then it is not a highly infectious disease even 
 among horses ?— No, it is not a highly infectious disease. 
 
 96._ (Chairman.) What is the disease called " duke"? 
 — I have never heard of it. 
 
 97. It appears in a letter addressed to us iby the 
 JLohdon Carmen's Trade Union. Are there any other 
 diseases which your experience suggests to you as proper 
 subjects for inquiry by this Committee ?— No, I do not 
 recollect any at the moment. 
 
 : 98. Foot-and-mouth disease is not nearly so impor- 
 tant as glanders,, ior instance ?— It is almost devoid of 
 importance, because we have no foot-and-mouth disease 
 in Great Britain at • the present time, and- we are not 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 likely, I ihope, ever to have serious visitations of foot- 
 and-month disease again. 
 
 99. {Mr. CunyngKame.) There are no others, like 
 •oonsumption, or something o fthat sort, are there ? You 
 have got through glanders and those diseases that are 
 mentioned, ^1 tbat a man is likely to catch from a 
 
 horse, or are there others on a rather larger scale ? — No, g^r J. Mae- 
 there are certainly none on a larger scale. fadyean,i/[.B, 
 
 100. (Chairman.) Nor diseases that can ibe contracted 
 
 X, X X., XT XT. ,■ X, 26 Oct. 1906. 
 from the care of cattl6 ? — No, I believe there are none 
 
 of importance except those I have mentioned, and they 
 are not important. 
 
 Mr. Samttel MabCH call<td in and examined. 
 
 101. {Chairman.) You are an official of the London 
 •Carmen's Trade Union ? — General Secretary, Sir. 
 
 102. Does your union include a large body of men? 
 — ^Well, at present we are 6,000 strong. 
 
 103. And you are anxious that the disease of glanders 
 should be scheduled in the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act? — If possible, Sir. 
 
 104. As a subject of compensation ? — ^Yes, Sir. 
 
 105. Have you been engaged in the carmen's trade 
 vourself for many years 1 — Forty years, Sir. 
 
 106. And have you in that time had many cases of 
 TMen who have suffered from glanders under your notice 1 
 — Not a large number come before my direct notice. I 
 "have known several to come before my direct notice, but 
 I have heard from our own members who are at work in 
 •other parts of London that they have known of cases. 
 
 107. Have they all been fatal cases, or have some 
 recovered? — ^I do not know of one that has recovered, 
 Sir. 
 
 108. Do you think that the cases of glanders which 
 appear in t;he annual returns as ascertained cases of 
 
 ^glandei-s are a complete list? — I should say so, prob- 
 ably ; there may be here and there a, case where it 
 was not necessary to have an inquiry, where perhaps 
 ■a doctor bad been, attending the patient and no inquiry 
 would be held ; but still I should say that you would 
 get it from the Eegistrar when he gives a certificate of 
 "death. 
 
 109. About how many cases have you heard of, say, 
 within the last two or three years — in round numbers I 
 — There have been only four that we know of in our 
 organisation during the last three years. 
 
 110. And were those cases certified as glanders by 
 the medical men in attendance on the patients 1 — ^Yes, 
 •Sir. 
 
 111. You never hear of a case in which a man feels 
 convinced that he has got glanders, bttt that the doctor 
 is doubtful about it? — ^Well, of course, it takes some 
 time to diagnose that it is glanders. The men are 
 sometimes treated for yellow jaundice, and it turns out 
 to to© glanders in the end. Sometimes the doctors that 
 they go to do not know what it is. Unfortunately, 
 this arises amongst horsekeepers, who are very badly 
 paid — more so than it does amongst carmen, and they 
 have to run to ithe cheapest doctor they can get, and 
 those doctors are not always able to diagnose the case 
 as being a case of glanders, and they treat the men for 
 yellow jaundice for a time until it develops ; then, of 
 ■course, they are probably sent ofi to a hospital — 
 isolated — and then they find out the true facts of what 
 the disease is. 
 
 112. Have you ever known of a case of glanders con- 
 •fcracted from some other animal ithan a horse — a donkey, 
 for instance ? — ^No, Sir, I have not. 
 
 113. {Mr. Ctmynghame.) I have not quite understood 
 the position. Your carmen ar© van drivers, I suppose, 
 are they? — ^Yes. 
 
 114. Do you employ these horse assistants ? Do the 
 car drivers employ these men, or who employs themf 
 — They are generally employed by the employer who 
 owns the horses and vans. 
 
 115. There is in London, is not there, a considerable 
 employment of men who look after horses by the cab- 
 men themselves — ^the drivers — is that so ? — Not a great 
 number, Sir. 
 
 116. It would be very easy, would it not, to get com- 
 jpensation in the case of filie members of your Society, 
 or in any case where it is a well-marked society, but 
 it would be rather a formidable thing, would it not, 
 to bring that in for so very few cases through 
 the whole country, and make it apply to every 
 small grocer and costermonger who employed a 
 man of any kind? — We consider that even although 
 there are only a small number of cases, the widow and 
 children certainly are entitled to something. 
 
 117. I do not dispute that proposition. The only Mr,' S.March. 
 
 question is the difficulty of bringing it in. I want to 
 
 put that before you. Suppose you have a man using 
 
 horses in a small way of business, and employing a 
 man, he would have to insure the man, would not he ? 
 — ^I should say so. Sir. 
 
 118. {Vr. Leyge.) What is the number of members 
 .;hat you have in your union? — ^We are a little over 
 6,000 strong just now, Sir ; that is including carmen 
 and horsekeepers ; the majority of them are carmen. 
 
 119. And amongst those you have had three cases 
 in the last three years ? — Four cases during the last 
 three years. 
 
 120. Can you state the actual number of oases of 
 glanders you have heard of amongst others who are not 
 members of your society? — No, iSir, I have not any 
 .ictual statistics. 
 
 121. Have you heard oi others? — ^I have heard of 
 kithers. 
 
 122. In London ? — In London. I have heard of those 
 through the members of the executive, but I have not 
 any definite cases. 
 
 123. In the case of these four, do you rememiber what 
 was done for the widow and children? — Only that — 
 the husband being a member of our society — w© paid 
 out the funeral claim ; and that is how it is that we 
 get to know the oases that come before our notice, 
 because we have to pay out the funeral claim ; and 
 then, of course, after that the society flormulate a 
 committee, and ,probably get up a little benefit. That 
 is what we did in one of these cases that I am think- 
 ing of. In the last one the widow was left with six 
 little children, and we were not able to get anything 
 from the employer at all for the widow and children, 
 and eventually the widow either has -to turn her hand 
 to do some kind of work, or else throw herself on the 
 rates — the parish. 
 
 124. In that particular case was the employer a large 
 employer? — ^Fairly — a fairly laarge employer. 
 
 125. (Chairman.) In the letter which you have 
 written to the Home Office on the subject you mention 
 the disease of " mange or duke " ? — ^Yes, Sir, there are 
 two other diseases that the men take, such as farcj 
 and mange. 
 
 126. Is not farcy the same as glanders ? — ^No, Sir ; 
 farcy usually comes out in the legs. That is generally 
 caused through neglect or the man not having proper 
 time to get the horse clean, or through its standing in 
 filth. It is generally a conglomeration of boils. I 
 could not describe it anything nearer. 
 
 127. It is quite a different disease from glanders, is 
 it? — Quite a different disease. 
 
 128. It is a disease that never comes from glandered 
 horses? — ^No, Sir, we have more cases of farcy and 
 mange than we do of glanders in horses. 
 
 129. In horses?— Yes, Sir. 
 
 130. "Farcy" is described by the Board of Agricul- 
 ture as being the same disease as glanders? — Oh, 
 indeed ! 
 
 131. Among horses ? — ^We do not take it so, as car- 
 men working amongst them. 
 
 132. Would a doctor describe this disease in the legs 
 of a human 'being ae " farcy " ?— We would not get the 
 disease in the legs of human beings, Sir. 
 
 133. I understood you to say you did ? — No ; we get 
 it from the legs of the horses — this farcy. 
 
 134. (Professor Allbutt.) Is it what is generally called 
 " grease " ? — Yes, it is usually called " grease " in the 
 common phrase, but I believe the medical phrase is 
 " farcy." 
 
 135. I think it is more colloquial ; I do not know that 
 in medical writings it would have that name, but it 
 might colloquially ?^ — Yes, Sir, probably so. The men 
 working with them, when they begin to discharge — if 
 they have the least little scratch or bad place on their 
 
6 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr- S.March, hand they contract blood poisoning from that mostly,' 
 
 the same as they do from mange. Mange is a sort of 
 
 •26 Oot. 1906. skin disease. 
 
 {Chairman.) Now as to this disease of "grease" or 
 " farcy," or whatever it may be called, how precisely 
 does that occur — how does it arise ? 
 
 136. {Professor Allhutt.) This is not " duke " ?— No, 
 they do not mention it as " duke " in the books ; they 
 call it " mange." 
 
 137. (Chairman.) Putting aside "duke" or "mange," 
 let us return to " farcy " or " grease." What are the 
 symptoms of it ? — The symptoms of it, as I have stated, 
 are through neglect in keeping the hoi-ees clean. 
 Probably neglect through the horse not being continu- 
 ally or properly doctored, or through standing in a 
 good deal of rubbish or manure in the stable, brings it 
 a.bout. 
 
 138. Brings it about in the horses ? — Brings it about 
 in the horses, and then of course it forms a large 
 number of boils, which get conglomerated together most 
 like A large bunch of grapes ; they gradually break, and 
 the discharge from them gets on to the man and causes 
 him to take blood poisoning. 
 
 139. Is it a kind of blood poisoning that can be distin. 
 guished from other kinds of blood poisoning ? — ^I do not 
 think so, Sir. 
 
 140. Does it occur frequently P — No, not very 
 frequently. 
 
 141. About how many cases come to your knowledge 
 in a year ? — I should not say more than about two or 
 three. 
 
 142. Then would all cases, in your opinion, of this 
 illness come to your knowledge ? — Oh, yes ; in cases of 
 that kind we pay " accident " benefit, and we should 
 describe that as an accident contracted from a horse 
 while the man is at his work. 
 
 143. How could you ascertain whether it came from 
 the horse or whether he had got blood poisoning through 
 cutting his finger at home? — Only by his own state- 
 ment to the doctor. The doctor gives him a certificate 
 as " blood poisoning." 
 
 144. There is no symptom in the disease itself which 
 distinguishes it as having been contracted from a horse ? 
 — Not that I am aware of. 
 
 145. And is it a serious complaint ; is it ever fatal ? — 
 I do not know of any fatal case, but I have known some 
 very serious cases of men being laid up for a consider- 
 able time through it when they have let themselves go 
 for some little time thinking they were going to clear 
 themselves off ; they let it get a good hold upon them 
 
 146. But if it is treated at once it can be cured ? — 
 Oh, yes. 
 
 147. Oases, I suppose, sometimes do arise which are 
 treated in time ? — Yes ; we advise our members, if they 
 have anything of that kind, to go to a doctor at once. 
 
 148. Then do you think it would be quite fair to the 
 employer to make him pay compensation to a man who 
 could easily have cured himself if he had gone to a 
 doctor ? — ^We think the employer could prevent a good 
 many of these diseases if he would have periodical 
 examinations of his horses by a veterinary surgeon, and 
 also by keeping their stalls cleaner than they do. It is 
 only through lack of employment of men that a great 
 deal of these complaints come about ; I believe a great 
 deal of glanders could be prevented if they would more 
 frequently have their stalls and stables cleaned out and 
 whitewashed — and their mangers too. 
 
 14Q. Now about this other disease — the " mange," or 
 " duke " — ■" duke " I suppose is a slang name for it P^ 
 That is a common phrase. Sir. 
 
 150. Can that disease be clearly distinguished from 
 other diseases? — Oh, yes. 
 
 151. What are the symptoms ? — ^It is a skin disease — 
 the breaking out of small pimples in the skin, causing 
 irritation, the animal suffering from it always wanting 
 to get against something to rub himself against, and he 
 is very fidgetty in the van or in harness ; the harness 
 upsets his skin and he begins chafing about, and in 
 cleaning the horse the dust from the horse gets into the 
 pores of the skin of the man, and that causes blood 
 
 poisoning and irritation, and sometimes causes the 
 man's arm to bi-eak out in bad sores. 
 
 152. But it is not, in the human being, a disease that 
 is different from all other diseases? — Oh, no; it is- 
 usually contracted from the horse. 
 
 153. If the man went to a doctor and said, " I have 
 got these symptoms, and they are due to my employ- 
 ment," it would not be possible for the doctor to say 
 without evidence whether they were due to a disease 
 arising from the employment or not ? — I do not suppose- 
 he would be able to unless he had happened to see the. 
 man before he contracted that disease. 
 
 154. Is that a serious complaint? — Not so very 
 serious. 
 
 15'5. The man recovered ? — Yes. 
 
 156. Always ? — Well, most always ; I do not know of 
 a fatal case. 
 
 157. About how many casea come to your nouce ol 
 this disease? — About three or four a year; it is very 
 similar to farcy. 
 
 158. (Mr. Cmiynqhame.) I should just like to ask one- 
 more question. I suppose that some of the members of 
 your Union are drivers and some of them stable minder* 
 — is that so ? — Yes, Sir. 
 
 159. Do the drivers tend the horses much and wash- 
 them, or do they mainly drive ? — They mainly drive. 
 
 160. And the stablemen make it tieir business all day 
 to be looking after the horses? — The stablemen look, 
 after the horses in the early morning and turn them 
 out, and then look after the stables, cut chaff, and 
 prepare for the horses coming in at night. 
 
 161. The disease of glanders would be chiefly caught 
 by these stablemen, I suppose ? — Yes, Sir. 
 
 162. So that it is the stablemen you really want to- 
 protect, and you would be content if you could get this 
 provision even with the limitation of it to a man who 
 was regularly carrying on the work of stableman, 
 during the day ; if he were protected that would prob- 
 ably satisfy you ? — ^Well, of course, it is more dangeroua- 
 to the stableman, and i+ is more frequent among the 
 stablemen, but the carmen are liable to contract it by 
 taking ihe horses out. 
 
 163. I presume you do not wish necessarily to> 
 involve in this " accident " everybody who drives a. 
 horse all over the country, and I am suggesting that it 
 might perhaps be enough if you confined it to the class- 
 of men who are regularly employed and engaged in 
 cleaning stables and horses ? — ^Yes, I understand your 
 question. Sir, but of course there are a number of firrn^ 
 where the carman does the stable work himself as well. 
 
 164. Is it a large number or not ? — Not a large num- 
 ber. Of .course the largest numlber do not have the- 
 carmen cleaning the horses and doing stable work, but 
 there are a nnmber who do. 
 
 165. But it is, as you have just told tis, the men wha 
 work the whole of their day in attending to the horses, 
 and icleaning the stables that are the most liable to 
 this disease, and that you wish to protect? — ^Yes, Sir, 
 that is so. 
 
 166. (Dr. Legge.) In this disease — "mange" or 
 " duke " — which you speak of, if the places are covered 
 up are the men able to go on working? — ^No, Sir, the- 
 pain is too great. It usually opens the skin, and you 
 must really open the skin to get the disease out, 
 because it poisons the blood. 
 
 167. Do you recollect the length of time that these 
 men were laid up ? — About three or four weeks at the- 
 outside. 
 
 168. In these three or four cases that you speak of ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 169. You were referring to the way they allow tihe- 
 symptoms to go on, but suppose they were to be treated 
 at once ? — I dare say it could be cleared out in a week. 
 
 170. Could not they go to work with it covered up ? — 
 It would be rather dangerous if they did, because ia 
 their work they cannot cover themselves up very much 
 with a coat. I have known a man pull the leg oS a 
 stocking, put that over his arm, and go on working 
 with that ; but the dust is likely to get through it. 
 
 171. What result has that had ? — ^A very good result, 
 but the dust is likely to get through, or would be if 
 he went to work amongst that class of horses again^ 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 SECOND DAT. 
 
 Thursday, \st November 1906. 
 
 PEEBENX ; 
 
 Mr. Heney Ctjnynghame, c.b. 
 JProfessor Clitfobd Allbutt, f.b.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M, Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bbttant (Acting Secreidry), 
 
 Mr. I. SiNGEB called and examined. 
 
 172. {Chairman.) You represent the Bradford Dyers 
 Association, Ltd. ?— Yes, I am the Chief Chemist of 
 .the Bradford Dyers' Association. 
 
 173. That Association comprises firms not only in 
 Bradford but elsewhere in the country? — Bradford 
 and Lancashire chiefly. 
 
 174. Ahout how many associations are there in the 
 undertaking ?— About thirty-seven distinct factories. 
 
 175. And what proportion is that thirty-seven of the 
 factories of the kind in this part of the world ? Is it 
 nearly all? — It is not all. I could not answer that 
 ^question. . Our Secretary, I daresay, would be happy 
 .to supply any such information. 
 
 176. Do the firms in that Association, so far as you 
 ■know, pretty well represent the different branches of 
 the trade ?— Oh, yes, of the piece dyeing trade. 
 
 177. The other dyeing, such as the dyeing of the 
 finished article ?i— That is the finished article, what we 
 <all piece dyeing, the woven pieces. These are tech- 
 nical terms, of course — in contradistinction to the 
 dyeing of yam or loose wool. i 
 
 178. Now, Mr. Singer, we want to know something 
 about anilin dyeing, and I will take them in order. I 
 had better separate one from the other ? — Yes. 
 
 179. (Professor AllbuU.) Shall we hear any evidence 
 about the yarn dyeing ?— We have one branch where we 
 are yarn dyers, one only. It is a minor affair with us. 
 
 180. {Chairman.) We will first ask you, at all events, 
 about piece dyeing, and then see whether there are any 
 particular points about yam dyeing. And first of all 
 we will take the dyeing with chrome ? — ^Perhaps I had 
 better point" out here a distinction. Do you mean 
 ■chrome dyeing or simply dyeing where chrome is 
 ■employed. 
 
 181. Where chrome is employed ? — ^Because there are 
 articles which are dyed with chrome, chrome yellows, 
 which is a distinct trade. 
 
 182. You hiavo nothing to do with that? — ^Nothing at 
 all. That is with chromate of lead' colours. When I 
 ■.say no'thing at all, I should like to qualify it — at pre- 
 sent we are not dyeing any ; it is not saying that we 
 may not .at some future time. 
 
 183. I thiak you had better begin by giving us just an 
 idea as if to people who know nothing about it. What 
 use is madte of chrome in the operations of dyeing that 
 you are going tO' jiell us about ? — ^The chief use in dye^ 
 ing generally, apart from anilin fast black dyeing, is 
 as a mordant, to prepare the woollen matei-ia.l so that 
 it may take the colour. I hope I may speak elemen- 
 tarily? 
 
 184. Certainly; we know nothing of dyeing. Of 
 course, we have a distinguished professor here who 
 will follow your scientific eKplanations. What is a 
 mordant ? — W© classify colouring matteiia into sub^ 
 istantive and adjective dyes. We may dip the 
 material into a solution of a substantive colouring 
 matter, and take it out dyed. If we dip the same 
 with an adjective dye, the material would not be 
 dyed, hence we have to prepare it by fixing on it 
 certain substances, usually metals, which we call 
 mordants. In woollen dyeing, this mordant is chiefly 
 -chrome. The loose wool yam or pieces are boiled in 
 a solution of bichromate of soda or bichromate of 
 potash, and then the goods are boiled in the dye 
 solution. In anilin black dyeing, the colouring 
 matter is put on first, an-d the goods are passed after- 
 
 wards through a chrome bath to oxidise the colouring Mr. I. Singer 
 matter. The two processes are not analogous. 
 
 185. Is that bichromate of soda, or potash? — ! 
 
 Generally bichromate of soda, because it is cheapef. 
 
 186. Then we may say tihat with regard to chrome 
 used as a mordant it is bichromate of potash and soda 
 that we have to reckon with ? — Yes, exclusively. 
 
 187. And there is no other suibstantial use of chrom^ 
 that we need trouble ourselves with ? — Not that you 
 need troilble yourselves with. 
 
 188. Therefore our problem is this — what dangers arp 
 presented by the dipping of wool into bichromates of 
 potash and soda ? — Yes. 
 
 189. Now, will you please tell us what are the effects 
 of the use of bi<diromate of potash and soda on the 
 health of the workman ? — I think that ought to be 
 answered' by medical men rather. 
 
 190. I do not mean in (the physiological sense— do not 
 look at it from tie medical side. — ^I myself, for in- 
 Bifcanoe, and let us say 80 or 90 per cent, of mankind, 
 can handle chrome with impunity, just as you might 
 handle sulphate of iron or any other salt ; but there 
 are some individuals on whom it seems to have an 
 effect, causing certain eruptions which, no doubt, Dr. 
 Legge will define in medical terms. I do not know 
 which term I should use, whether I should say that 
 there is a predisposition in the individual or whether 
 it is idiosyncratic, but the fact remains that most 
 people can handle chrome with impunity. I would 
 dip my hands in the bichromate solution, and Alder- 
 man Hayhurst, who is the secretary of the Operative 
 Dyers' Association, says he has used it for years and 
 years with impunity. 
 
 191. How strong a solution ? — The strongest that is 
 ever used would be a 5 per cent, solution. None is ever 
 used stronger — as a matter of fact always weaker. 
 
 192. The 5 per cent, soluition colours your hand ? — Of 
 course, the liquid is coloured, (but it leaves no colour on 
 the hand. 
 
 193. You can handle this 5 per cent. Bolution with 
 perfect impunity? — The crystals themselves, or satu- 
 rated solutions, with the greatest impunity. 
 
 194. You mean that is the case with the majority? — 
 The vast majority. 
 
 195. The vast majority of human beings can handle 
 any amount of bi-chroonate solution with perfect im- 
 punity 1 — That is so. 
 
 . 196. Aiid with no injury either to the skin or tlhe 
 general health ? — Absolutely no injury. It is not corro- 
 sive. It is only where there is a predisposition that 
 there are these little pustules formed. 
 
 197. In the case of people who have this predisposi- 
 tion, h.o'W soon do ithe effects that you have described 
 begin ? — The cases that have come under my personal 
 observation generally started with a cut or some open- 
 ing wound. We have one case now at Graven Pearson 
 and Co.'s. He is at work. He has a tied up finger. 
 It may be due. to chrome or something. else. 
 
 198. If you had a cut on yoxir finger, one that bled, 
 and put bichromate on it, it might smart? — I doubt 
 whether it would smart. In any case I have handled 
 it for years. I have been now since 1888 research 
 
 chemist on anilin black, and I have made extensive 
 experiments, and always used my hands freely, with- 
 out paying particular attention to a cut. 
 
8 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. I. Singer 
 1 Nov. 1906. 
 
 199. Can you tell us from your memory what is the 
 shortest time that you recollect in which a person Ibeing 
 employed in handling chrome solution has developed-' 
 these eruptions ? — It may be months or it may be 
 years. 
 
 200. Before it would begin to appear ? — Oh, I gbonlu 
 not care to say that, I mean before it may become- 
 serious. I have really no knowledge how soon the 
 first symptoms appear. There is no such thing as a 
 sudden case of poisoning or alarm., and the m,an who 
 is affected by it will keep on working for months or 
 perhaps years before he will take medical advice. I 
 think I am correct in saying that ? 
 
 201. We are not expecting absolute accuracy in the 
 medical part. When this poison begins to take effect 
 what are the worst symptoms you have seen ? — Pustules 
 and a few pimples. 
 
 202. Has a man been obliged to take to his bed from 
 headaches? — ^Not so far as I know. He will keep on 
 working — ^in fact, some men whoi have chrome poisoning 
 are covered all over thei arms, ani keep on working 
 for years. 
 
 203. All their lives? — ^Well for years. I should say 
 yes. 
 
 204. Excepting for an inconvenience, accoirding to 
 you, the harm done is infinitesimal? — Whether ulti- 
 mately it does harm or not, I should not care to answer 
 that question. 
 
 205. Now I will take the next point — are there any 
 precautions in the use of. bichromate which- a working 
 man ought to take ? — ^I cannot think of any. For this 
 reason : He might shovel the bichromate crystals into 
 the dissolving tank without ever touching a crystal. 
 No dust is given off there. In most of our factories 
 we have made arrangements to supply the chromate in 
 solution. 
 
 206. Why do they do that ? I should have thought 
 it was easier to supply it in crystal ? — ^We prefer to do 
 it in solution. It saves handling and labour. 
 
 207. It saves the labour? — We prepare, say, a 
 thousand gallons — and then we give so many quarts or 
 so many gallons to each man for his machine. 
 
 208. Tou do not represent that it is any safer to 
 handle when ready dissolved than when crystalled? — 
 Absolutely not. 
 
 209. There is no particular precaution then that has 
 to be taken in the shovelling of the dry. material? — 
 No ; my contention is that if a man was liable to get 
 this chrome poisoning, nothing will protect him except 
 keeping him away entirely, because it is very difficult 
 to be in a place where you have always an article 
 present and to say that you do not touch it. Theoreti- 
 cally, he need not touch it, either in solution or in the 
 crystals, but it is impossible for a man to handle a 
 thing impregnated with a substance and not come in 
 contact with it. 
 
 210. {Prpfessor Allbutt.) He need not handle the 
 pieces at all ? — He need not theoretically. It is possible 
 not to handle them, but really it is hypothetically 
 only ; he is bound to handle them. 
 
 211. (Chairman.) A man engaged in the process of 
 mordanting good® with bichromates is sure to get some 
 solution on to his hands ? — Accidentally. 
 
 212. One way or the other? — As a matter of fact, 
 supposing the goods curl at the edges, it is most natural 
 to put his finger or thumb in to straighten them. 
 
 213. There are no doubt other things analogous to 
 that. As to the shovelling, is there anything else that 
 might be done — would it be possible to put gloves on ? 
 — It would not be practicable. 
 
 214. Would not they prefer to put gloves on? — We 
 are willing to supply them. 
 
 215. Have you offered to do so? — Oh, yes. 
 
 216. What are the sort of gloves that you have sug- 
 gested ? — ^Indiarubber gloves. 
 
 217. Up to the elbow ? — Of course, we would supply 
 them any shape or size. The men would object. 
 
 218. I am asking just what you have suggested? — 
 They were indiaxubber gloves that would reach to about 
 here (indicating the wrist). 
 
 219. Now, I want to ask if those indiarubher gloves 
 were worn all day would not they be unpleasant and 
 even deleterious on account of not letting the perspira- 
 tion out >— That is so. 
 
 220. Is there anything in the way of ventilation that 
 would be a good thing ? Are there no fumes that arise ? 
 — ^None. 
 
 221. From this solution? — None, bichromate is abso- 
 lutely non-volatile. 
 
 222. Is it used hot or cold ? — Both hot and cold. 
 22i. Them you do not seem to be of opinion that this- 
 
 chrome process is very deleterious ? — ^Absolutely not. 
 
 224. Then I should like to go on to anilin. Now 
 just tell us very briefly how the anilin is used in dye- 
 ing. Is there one process common to all the trade? 
 Just briefly describe it? — ^Anilin oil is combined with 
 the hydrochloric acid in an aqueous solution whereby 
 we convert it into its salt. This is mixed with copper 
 or chlorate or other salts, according to the individual 
 preferences, and with that the goods are impregnated in 
 the cold. These prepared goods are passed through a 
 heating chamber which we call the ager. 
 
 225. The thing which gives an age?— To age the 
 goods. 
 
 226. So called from its being employed to age? — ^In 
 the early days we uSed to hang the goods for several 
 days ; now that is performed within a few minutes, and 
 hence the name ager. 
 
 227. {Professor Allbutt.) That is the black anilim 
 dye ? — The anilin. 
 
 228. The material goes into the ager? — ^Here the 
 chloride and anilin react with each other, and fumes, 
 are given off, chiefly of chloric and hydrochloric acid. 
 Of course there are some vapours of anilin with it, 
 but as far as the nose can detect, these are chiefly 
 chloric and hydrochloric acids. The goods come in a. 
 green state out of this ager. Then they are passed 
 through a solution of bichromate, and that is practi- 
 cally all. 
 
 229. And then they are dried? — They are rinsed ancb 
 dried. 
 
 230. So thait you have these processes, roughly speak- 
 ing. First there is the mixing, then there is the dip- 
 ping, then there is the ageing, then there is the bi- 
 ohro'ming ? — -The chroming. 
 
 231. And eventually the cleansing and drying ? — ^Yes., 
 232-3. Speaking broadly, those may be said to be the 
 
 five processes that you go through in anilin dyeing- 
 Now we had better take them one after the other and 
 see what dangers, if any, exist in each of them. Now 
 take the first — ^in mixing the anilin oil with hydro- 
 chloric acid ? — Hydrochloric acid and water. 
 
 234. What effects are found on the men ? — ^None. 
 
 235. But they handle hydrochloric acid and anilin ? 
 —-Yes, but of all cases of poisoning, due to the opera- 
 tion itself, we have none. I know an old man, perhaps- 
 60 or 70 years old, who has been in the mixing depart- 
 ment, to my own knowledge, since 1888. He had been. 
 there before then. This man had been poisoned on 
 two occasions, but in each case the poisoning was due- 
 to an accident. The spigot of a 1,000 gallon tank, con- 
 taining anilin solution, came out, and the man. 
 swallowed some of the anilin. We gave him raw egg^ 
 and milk, and he was soon brought round, but from 
 the actual mixing itself he suffered no ill effects. 
 
 236. You do not know, at all events, of any disease- 
 happening from the operation of mixing the oil with 
 the acids ?— No ; by which I will not say that people- 
 might not get poisoned if the place was not ventilated, 
 or if they stopped there longer than is necessary. 
 
 237. What are these fumes, are they of anilin or 
 hydrochloric acid?— Of both. If hydrochloric acid and 
 anilm are brought near each other, the fumes that are 
 given off, combine, and produce those white clouds 
 analogous to what is produced when ammonia and' 
 hydrochloric acid are brought near each other. 
 
 238. You now speak of those substances giving off 
 the fumes in the cold ?— Yes ; anilin oil and hydro- 
 chloric acid brought near each other give the charac- 
 teristic ammonia fumes. 
 
 239-40. The aniHn oil of itself gives no vapour J- 
 Not visibly ; but m the mixing we get the charac- 
 teristic ammonia fumes. 
 
 241. (Chairman.) And the rooms in which that is 
 done ought to be ventilated ?— They are. In our case- 
 they are. 
 
 342. In your factory ?— Every where, in aU our fac- 
 tories. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 9 
 
 243. At all events they aught to be. If they are 
 lot men might get poisoned ? — If they stopped in long 
 inough. 
 
 244. Now take the dipping, the dipping in the mixed 
 lolution. 
 
 245. (Dr. Legge.) You spoke just now of the charac- 
 eristic ammonia-like fumes ; are those the fumes of 
 inilin hydrochloride ? — ^Yes. If I bring two bottles to- 
 ;3ther, one of anilin oil and the other of hydrochloric 
 icid, we at once get those dense fumes. What really 
 aappens is that the vapours of anilin oil and of the 
 aydrochloric acid combine to form a salt, salt of anilin. 
 
 246. {Professor Alliutt.) In what sort of vessel is 
 that done? — Chiefly in square tanks holding anything 
 between 400 and 1,000 gallons. We introduce first 
 the requisite quantity of water, then the acid, and 
 finally the anilin oil is pumped up. That can be 
 pumped up from the outside, so that no man need 
 be inside the mixing-room until all those fumes have 
 cleared away. 
 
 247. {Chairman.) And that salt of anilin is poi- 
 sonous? — ^I would sooner Dr. Legge answered that 
 question. What I mean is this : In anilin oil factories 
 the regulations are that if any man gets any anilin 
 on his hands he has to wash them at once with acidu- 
 lated water, thereby converting it into a soluble salt. 
 In our case it is already a salt. How far that modi- 
 fies the physiological effect of the anilin I do not 
 know. 
 
 {Chairman.) It arises in the mixing. 
 
 248. {Professor Allbutt.) The mixing, I understand, 
 requires no direct human agency? — Not necessarily. 
 We try to dispense with it entirely. 
 
 249. {Chairman.) I suppose in the mixing the men 
 do occasionally get some anilin oil on their hands ? — 
 If careless, they might. But it is not serious if a man 
 washes his hands. 
 
 250. Now we take the process of dipping the piece 
 goods into these vats ; well now, what injuries to the 
 men are likely to happen from that? — I do not know 
 that there are any. I deny that that is in any way 
 injurious. 
 
 251. Do they get pustules on the hands ? — No. The 
 effects of anilin would not be the same. They are 
 quite different from chrome poisoning. 
 
 252. Do they breathe any vapours that are dele- 
 terious during the dipping process ? — No ; there are 
 no vapours given ofi. 
 
 253. Is that admitted ? I want to put that point to 
 you — you find difficulty in believing that in dipping 
 there can be any deleterious effects ? — I have read Dr. 
 Legge's report on that, and, whilst I would not be 
 prepared to controvert every item — formerly the anilin 
 dye works were not in a perfect condition, and these 
 effects no doubt were noticed — ^what I deny is that 
 any man by preparing goods with 5 per cent, or 6 per 
 cent, anilin salt solution could possibly have any ill 
 effects. As Dr. Legge points out, there might have been 
 formerly, when most of the mixing was done in the dye- 
 house itself. All that is separate now, and under 
 present conditions of working that is impossible. 
 
 254. Is it not a fact that men are sometimes em- 
 ployed in mixing and sometimes in dipping — the same 
 men? — I do not think so. In our principal works I 
 know for certain that the mixers are engaged for that 
 specially, and they do nothing else. 
 
 255. In the smaller works ? — It is possible that they 
 are. 
 
 256. But not in mixing?— I do not think so. The 
 preparer would always be the same man. Possibly 
 they might do something else in the storeroom. I can 
 ascertain that if it is of interest. They are always 
 engaged as mixers'. The fumes they would not be 
 exposed to at all. 
 
 257. What proportion of their time would be spent, 
 with a man who was in the mixing-room all day, in 
 the fumes and in the other operations of filling the 
 vats? — He would not be in the mixing-room while 
 he puts in the anilin oil. As a matter of fact, the 
 most disagreeable part of the whole thing is when 
 the men are emptying carboys of hydrochloric acid. 
 
 258. What I wanted to get at was this : Whether 
 the persons engaged as mixers — although they are, of 
 course, known as mixers — how long they are subject 
 
 419. . / 
 
 to the actual fusion of mixing or the fumes ? — They j^f^. /, sinqer. 
 
 would not bp subjected to it at all. The point is ^ 
 
 this : The man puts in the water and the acid ; then 1 Nov. 1906. 
 
 he can go outside, and send up the anilin oil through 
 
 the pump, and while the fumes are in the room he 
 has no reason to be inside — no business. 
 
 259. {Professor AllhuH.') It would be contributory 
 negligence if he is there at all? — Yes. And if the 
 Committee desire to see some of our factories we shall 
 be very happy to show them. 
 
 260. Is there any exhaust from these vats ? — They 
 would not be of any use, as the fumes are heavy. 
 The windows are open, and there are large openings 
 in the bottom of the wall to get rid of the fumes., 
 
 261. {Chairman.) These are trades which it seems to 
 me would be benefited by some special rules, would 
 they not ? — ^I do not think so. 
 
 262. To prevent people being imprudent ? — I do not 
 think there is any ill-effect on the mixers themselves. 
 
 263. They ought to be forbidden to remain in the 
 room whilst the process of the fusion of these two 
 substances is proceeding. Now, with regard to ageing, 
 are there any dangers in that process? — I myself can 
 see none. I should not like to give evidence that might 
 look ex parte evidence. What I mean is this : I can- 
 not say that the fumes that are given off in the 
 ager ought to be inhaled. They should not, but the 
 men are not inside the ager. 
 
 264. And they ought not to be? — They are not. As 
 a matter of fact, in some agers they could not be. 
 They would be ground to pieces. There is no possi- 
 bility of them getting in. 
 
 265. Then how do the goods get into the ager? — 
 Automatically, in a. way which I think you should have 
 an opportunity of seeing. They are sent in, and they 
 come out again. 
 
 266. Are not there some factories where the goods 
 are simply put into the ager by hand? — Not in our 
 association, and I doubt whether there are really in 
 any case. Such a process would not pay. 
 
 267. {Professor Allbutt.) Mr. Singer, you told us 
 that if a man got the anilin oil on his hand, he 
 should proceed to wash it off at once with acidulated 
 water — why? — ^Because it has ill-effects if long on the 
 skin. 
 
 268. {Dr. Legge.) And might not that account for 
 the men at the preparing showing some slight symp- 
 toms? — I do not think so, because there the anilin 
 is already in the form of salt — and I am attributing 
 these effects to the base itself, and not to the salt. 
 
 269. {Professor Allbutt.) I quite understand, but if 
 the anilin oil did remain on the hands beyond a very- 
 short time it would produce some effect on the skin 
 injurious ? — Not on the skin. It is said to be absorbed 
 by the system, just as if taken internally. 
 
 270. That is more important still. Your point is 
 that such accidents do not occur? — They have not 
 much chance of interfering with the anilin oil ; as a 
 matter of fact the mixer is the only person to handle it. 
 
 271. {Chairman.) I will pass to the cold bichromate 
 generally. May I say I- am correct in thinking that 
 the cold bichromate process is very much like the 
 mordanting process ? — They are very much the same. 
 
 272. The same remarks apply? — Yes, simply the 
 handling of chrome. 
 
 273. Would it apply to one case as to the other?— 
 
 Yes. 
 
 274. And now the last process of cleansing and dry- 
 ing, is there any particular danger there ? — Absolutely 
 none. 
 
 275. But, then, if it is the case ths-d these opera- 
 tions are really not dangerous, how is it that a certain 
 amount of disease or injury has occurred in these 
 trades ? — ^We do not admit it, sir. 
 
 276. That is what I want to come to, but unques- 
 tionably men have been found who are ill ? — Yes, 
 many cases. 
 
 277-8. How do you account for the belief that un- 
 doubtedly obtains, not only among the men, but also 
 among others, that this in an injurious trade? — I 
 think I can give a coinplete answer to that. I have 
 been experimenting myself in one of our factories with 
 an organic salt copper, which, under the conditions of 
 the experiment, gave off much copper-dust. My 
 
 B 
 
10 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 Hr. I. Singer, assistant called my attention to the fact, and I stopped 
 
 the experiment at once. 
 
 1 Nov. 1 906. 279. Why did you stop at once ?— Because the men 
 were seriously molested by the copper-dust, which 
 they thought was anilin ; yet neither anilin nor 
 chrome had anything to do with it. Had it not been 
 for this experiment, I doubt whether we should have 
 heard so much about green dust. This is one case. 
 The other relates to chrome poisoning in works where 
 the bichromate is being manufactured. Pamphlets 
 have been circulated about the dangerous effects of 
 chrome in such works, and the men reading that 
 naturally think of chrome as a dangerous poison in 
 whatever form it may be. Here is an illustration in 
 point. I have visited yesterday with Mr. Hayhurst, 
 the Secretary of the Union, one of our factories, when 
 the men pointed out to me a little deal box that was 
 quite yellow as evidence of "chrome-fumes." Their 
 reasoning is very simple : bichromate is yellow, and 
 the box has turned yellow ; hence the latter has been 
 coloured by the foi-mer. As a matter of fact, however, 
 the deal has been turned yellow by a.nilin, and chrome 
 had nothing to' do with it. In this way, and thanks to 
 the crude conditions which undoubtedly obtained in 
 the early days of the industry, anilin black dyeing 
 got a bad reputation ; in my opinion, undeservedly so,- 
 if present-day conditions are taken into account. I 
 should like to supplement this by saying that in order 
 to prove my contention, I have asked Mr. Hayhurst 
 to supply me with the statistics of sickness for six 
 months or a year, showing the number of people em- 
 ployed in the whole Association, and percentage on 
 the sick list ; then again the number employed in 
 the dyeing of anilin black and percentage on the sick 
 list, and from what causes. Unfortunately these 
 figures were not available. We, in the Association, 
 do not keep statistics of sickness, so I thought I might 
 do the next best thing and take a census. I have 
 done so, and have here the results, which I desire to 
 submit; 
 
 280. I just wanted first to make clear to my mind 
 about this copper poisoning. Will you pleas© again tell 
 us the exact process by which men get poisoned by the 
 copper? — I had introduced, for a certain experimental 
 purpose, an organic copper salt in the mixture. When 
 the goods were drj and were pulled over, a dust was 
 given off. 
 
 281. In the dry? — Yes, that was the copper really, 
 and not anilin or chrome at all. 
 
 282. Then surely in the last process, where th« goods 
 have been subjected to anilin and copper — ^that is, after 
 the a.geing and bichromate in the drying — a certain 
 amount of copper might be given off ? — No ; only if 
 that particular compound were present. 
 
 283. But you may have organic acids, may you not.'' — 
 That is so. 
 
 284. They do use them?— Yes. 
 
 285. It appears to me that your evidence rather 
 tends to show that deleterious salts might come off 
 in the last process of cleansing and drying ? — I will go 
 further — I do not try to give ex-parte evidence. When- 
 ever textiles in the dry state are pulled over, some 
 fibres are coming off — what we call dust — and in these 
 there is, when in the green stage, always some copper 
 salt and anilin, and that dust should not be inhaled 
 by the men. 
 
 286. But it comes to this — that, at all events in 
 that fifth process, it does appear that there is a danger. 
 It may not be a very great one, but it is a danger ? — 
 That is so. 
 
 287. You have given your evidence extremely fairly, 
 
 and if you are correct it would be doing the employers 
 no harm if they were made liable to compensate pea-- 
 sons who were poisoned by these processes? — That is 
 a question with which I have nothing to do. I am 
 trying to give evidence as a cheinist. 
 
 288. A very fair answer. Now with regajd to that 
 census and statistics ? — I could O'nly ask how many were 
 ill on a certain day. 
 
 289. Thee© are the statistics of illness amongst opera- 
 tires employed by the firms that are in your Association. 
 Is that so P — ^Yes. 
 
 290. How many firms are there? — 37. 
 
 291-293. Now will you give us your statistics?— 
 Those on the sick list of all the operatives in our. 
 employ amount to 1.68 per cent. If we divide our 
 
 employees into those working where no anilin is used 
 at all, and into those at works where anilin black ia 
 dyed, either partially or exclusively, the number on 
 the sick list is 1.64 per cent. Further sub-dividing 
 the men into those actually employed in the anilin 
 black dyeing process, we find there are only 10 men 
 on the sick list out of the latter, and of these not 
 one on account of poisoning from his occupation. The- 
 analysis on these 10 men runs as follows: — One suf- 
 fering from slight cold, abseiit one day; one absent 
 two weeks with dropsy ; two absent one day from 
 colds; one absent one day from bad leg; one, in- 
 flammation of the bowels, absent four weeks, im- 
 proving ; one, cause unknown, absent onei day ; on© 
 absent a week with a cold ; one absent three weeks 
 sick ; one suffering from sciatica. 
 
 294-295. Then in the whole of these men that are ill, 
 there is not one single case among them of either 
 anilin poisoning or chrome poisoning? — Yes, that is 
 so. If I take you to one of our branches, there is one- 
 man who says he suffers from chrome poisoning. Ho 
 has a bad finger. He is not absent from work either 
 on account of chrome poisoning or anilin poisoning, 
 and one man who complained to me, I asked him 
 yesterday ; " Shall I transfer you ? I will transfer yote 
 to the singeing department." He said, "I would, 
 rather stop." 
 
 296. What are the relative wages ? — He would neither 
 gain nor lose in wages ; and I hope the members of 
 the Committee will find time to come round. If I had 
 to pick out the places where I wanted to be employed, 
 the mixing room or the ager would be my choice — 
 quite a little sinecure. 
 
 297. That pretty well ends your evidence-in-dhief- 
 Is there nothing else you would like tx) add to what yoiE 
 have said ? — ■! hardly know that I can a<dd to what I 
 have written. 
 
 298. At all events, I think we have covered pretty- 
 well all the points your precis deals with? — ^I should 
 simply like to say this— all this criticism — ^I should 
 not like to say anything that might injure the men. 
 I wish them well in all their endeavours, where they 
 are trying to get any amelioration. But as far as 
 this outcry against anilin poisoning or chrome poison- 
 ing is concerned, it is my honest opinion that it i» 
 absolutely groundless and carping criticism. 
 
 299. {Professor Allbutt.) That is in respect of poisons 
 from work? — In respect of the whole question of 
 scheduling anilin or chrome. 
 
 300. I thought we were all agreed about the eczem* 
 on the hands and arms ? — Of certain individuals. 
 
 301. Quite so? — Whom no Act of Parliament cam 
 protect. 
 
 302. That is true of all diseases. 
 
 303. (Chairman.) And these pustules ; your view i» 
 that they may get these pustules on the arms — ^that does- 
 not prevent them working? — It does not; and more 
 than that, if any man finds that he cannot stand 
 chrome he should at once give notice and he can be 
 employed elsewhere. 
 
 304. And then you mean the pustules would cease ? — 
 I should prefer a medical gentleman to answer that. 
 
 305. I prefer to ask you. You might have seen it T 
 —All I know is that I have seen men that have 
 had an arm like that for 15 or 20 years, and they 
 have been working. 
 
 306. If they went to something else would the 
 postules disappear?— I should say so, but I am not 
 competent. 
 
 307. {Professor Allbutt.) I should like to read- you 
 a note that I have taken about copper salts. Copper 
 salts are present in all these processes, and if in- 
 organic salts, are not harmful except in the dust fromt 
 the dry pieces?— I should not like to say that they 
 are not harmful. They do not give off dust. A 
 copper salt taken internally in any case would be 
 harmful. 
 
 308. But I do not understand that there is any risk 
 "dTnh^r ^'^'"^ -t--ll7?-Any dust the' men 
 
 be^har^f,tl /''Tf^^ dust from the dry pieces-that may 
 be harmful ?-If present as a certain organic salt. 1 
 should prefer it differently worded. 
 
 310. I should like to have it down exactly as you 
 employed the dry goods are liable to give oS a dust 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTEIiL DISEASES. 
 
 11 
 
 containing this copper, which, if inhaled, is harmful, 
 but in the absence of such salts no such dust is pro- 
 • duced. That is to say, the goods do not dust when 
 the dry goods are handled. 
 
 511. Then there is something in certain organic salts 
 -which makes the Abre give ? — It does not combine with 
 the fibre. I might strike it like this and get dust oft. 
 ' <)tdinaTily no dust of copper is given off. 
 
 3l2. No dust P — Yes, dust of a. kind, but we are wear- 
 ing those fibres on our body. 
 
 313-.- Then I; have a note to the effect that those 
 ■organic salts of copper are not in use, and where used 
 are only in some experimental dyeing which occupied 
 -one day only? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 314. (Dr, Legqe.) Just to take up that same point 
 
 about the ferrous salts, when I visited one of the works 
 
 in Bradford I noticed from the jigger where the cloth 
 
 was being passed there^was an exceedingly acrid dust 
 
 ■given off; it was only in that one department? — Yes. 
 
 ■ 315. And it was suggested to me that the acrid 
 nature of the dust was due to copper sulphate ?^-I 
 should say that was a mistake. 
 - - 316.- The dust was there ? — ^It may have been copper. 
 317. Copper of some sort? — Yes. 
 
 • 318. But it was suggested to me that it was not bi- 
 chromate irritating the nostrils, but it was the copper 
 salt .'' — It could not have been there. 
 
 319. On the day of that one experiment ? — ^And you 
 have not seen it either. I will explain what you have 
 seen. When the goods com© out of the ager they 
 are in the green or emeraldine stage. It is then that 
 the dust is given off, and the dust consists of a fibre of 
 cotton or the nap of the cotton, and that, of course, 
 is green just like the cloth itself. If you analyse that, 
 a copper salt ; but that copper salt is present in that 
 
 ~ 'fibrs also when the goods are finished and we are wear- 
 ing them. There is copper and chrome in this here. 
 - 'i^Teinting to his coat.) So it is simply a question of 
 these fibres ; the inhalation of the fibres themselves 
 would not be healthy even in the grey room. In the 
 •singeing house far more is given oS than in the dyed 
 state. This is the point I should like to bring before 
 this Committee. There are portions of the dyehouses 
 that are far more disagreeable and more injurious to 
 liealth than the anilin black, and if anilin black should 
 he singled out as a dangerous trade, then you would 
 have to proscribe the whole dyeing industry. 
 
 320. But the inhalation of singed dust or cotton 
 fibre would not produce an acute irritation of the in- 
 side of the nose, with prolongfed "discharge going on 
 
 ' for several hours after leaving the factory. Nor wotild 
 it lead to ulceration, of the nose ? — ^These effects are not 
 
 ' produced normally, and can refer only to the experi- 
 ment as before explained. 
 
 321. Is hydrocyanic acid developed ? — In the 
 prussiate black. 
 
 .^ 322. Do you consider the inhalation of these fumes 
 distinctly injurious? — A man should not, be subjected 
 . to them, and there is no need, for.it either. 
 
 323. Is it an extensive process ? — We are using it 
 , 1 now and then. 
 
 324. Have • you known of any symptoms of illness 
 produced among the men ? — ^No. 
 
 325. Do you take the fttmes away ?-^The inen do' not 
 go into the'^ ager. ' I would undertake to stand inside 
 that ager for three hours. 
 
 326. Where this prussiate black is worked ? — Even 
 there, although I should not care to do it ; but in an 
 ordinary ager I would stand three hours for any dis- 
 
 ' ■comfort I should feel, except perspiring. What I con- 
 tend is this : I will not try to make out that .they are 
 not injurious ;'but inasmuch as no man is inside that 
 ager any more than a man is inside our flues or 
 chimneys, the thing is quite harmless. It should not 
 be allowed to be used in such a manner that men 
 should be subject to inhaling the fumes. 
 
 327. If so used in such, a' manner, then there would 
 be no objection to schedule it under the Act and 
 pay -compensation to. the"work people vwhb suffered in 
 copjeequenoe? — As 6oan.aB.;you are.driftuig ■tO' the l^egal 
 point I would like to stand aside. 
 
 . 338. With regard to bichromate poisoning, do you 
 know.-of, any I particular point, on the hand or on the 
 fingers that is partioidarly liable to suffer when 
 419 
 
 attacked by chrome t — No. What I have seen, you have Mr. 1. Singer 
 seen. We have seen it together. 
 
 329. The usual place is for it to attack the root ^ Nov. 19 06> 
 of the nails, pnd if in a factory a man was seen with 
 
 the marks of c.n ulcer at the base of his nail, there 
 would be almost absolute certainty that that was 
 caused by the chrome — would you agree to a state- 
 ment of that sort ? — ^I should say that is the most likely 
 place where they would get poisoned. This is just 
 where the chrome would keep. Unfortunately some 
 men are not cleanly. 
 
 330. {Professor Allbutt.) Are you speaking just of 
 ordinary cleanliness, or of some special rinsing? — 
 Special rinsing of the hands. They will go home with 
 their hands just as they have been working. 
 
 331. (Dr. Legge.) And you agree that an ulcer con- 
 tracted at the root of the nail like that would take a 
 long time to heal? — I know nothing of that at all. 
 
 332. So far as your Association is concerned, the 
 questidn is a small one ? — I should say very small 
 indeed, a^ I have here the statistics. I have there the 
 original letters. We have at present amongst 8,000 
 men not a single case. 
 
 333. That represents one day, but if you took the 
 number in a year ? — It is possible there might be some 
 cases. I have tried to get these statistics from the 
 workmen's union, and I could not get them. We have 
 no records. 
 
 334. Have you no knowledge of . any workmen 
 employed by your Association who have suffered from 
 perforation of (the septum of the nose ? — I know of none. 
 Mr. Hayhuist says he can produce one. 
 
 335. As a matter of fact, I did find one man who was 
 engaged in mixing the chrome crystals with perfora- 
 tion of the septum of his nose from the bichromate 
 dust. I was pleased to hear you say that you now 
 use it in the form of solution and not in tlie form of 
 crystals. — We are only too anxious to take every pre- 
 caution. W© do not like our men to have cause for 
 grumbling. 
 
 336. And in the case of accident, upsetting a carboy 
 of hydrocldoric acid into a tank of anilin oil, -have 
 you heard of illnesses so serious as to require hospital 
 
 . treatment ? — Yes, I have heard in one case, but that 
 has nothing to do with dye or anilin dyeing ; that 
 would apply to anywhere where acids are handled. 
 
 337. I do not mean poisoning from acid fumes, but 
 from anilin fumes ? — ^There is no anilin when such an 
 accident happens. 
 
 338. (Professor Allbutt.) Would that come under the 
 -head of accidents ? 
 
 339. (Dr. Legge.) Yes. 
 
 340-1. (Chairman.) An acid is put in first, and the 
 oil of anilin afterwards? — ^Yes, that is so. I think I 
 should mention one occasion here in 1905. Mr. Hay- 
 hurst kindly consented to come round with me to the 
 works in order to suggest what reforms should be made. 
 He wrote then a report which I believe Mr. Hayhurst 
 is submitting to this Comnjittee as evidence. At that 
 time he wrote in that report the following — 
 amongst the characteristics common to the occupation 
 are — and here he gave a long list of diseases. (Bepori 
 handed in,.) 
 
 342. (Chairman.) Who is the writer? Mr. Hay- 
 hurst ? — ^Yes. 
 
 343. Whom does he represent ? — ^Mr. Hayhurst is the 
 secretary for the workmen's union. 
 
 344. He says " I have seen the following effects — loss 
 of appetite, excessive spitting "^-you wish to make 
 some /remarks on this ? — ^Originally it was like this : 
 " Amongst the characteiistios common to the occupa- 
 tion are" and then follows adist of diflerent symptoms. 
 To that I have written : — " Dear Mr. Hayhurst, — At 
 our first interview I said that it was the desire of my 
 directors to listen to any reasonable sug^stdon which 
 may conduce to the comfort of the men, even if border- 
 ing on the extravagant. Therefore I do not intend to 
 discuss with you any of your recommendations, but 
 shall endorse the same from soap, and' towels to the 
 looker's for food. But I must take strong objection to 
 the paraigraph which commences as^ follows : — 
 'Amongst the characteristics common to the occupa- 
 tion are,' etc. I do not object to the terrible list of 
 symptoms 'srhich- you state anilin -poisoning will pro- 
 duce, but merely to the sentence above quoted, because 
 
 B 2 
 
12 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. I. Singer, it leads one to think that the people employed in the 
 anilin dyeing are all seriously exposed or liable to any 
 
 1 Nov. 1906. or all of the above diseases, which you must admit now 
 
 is not the case. If you said ' the symptoms of anilin 
 
 poisoning are as folloT^'s ' : giving the list just as it 
 stands now, I should have no objection, if at the end 
 you added that the cases of illness at present are 
 neither frequent nor serious, or should you object to 
 this statement I would request you then to give the 
 actual statistics for the last five years of all illnesses 
 that have come under your notice, specifying, at the 
 same time, wherever possible, the nature of the illness. 
 You see, we have nothing to hide or minimise ; we 
 are as anxious to know the facts as anybody, because 
 we intend to employ every possible saieguard against 
 anything which may cause illness or discomfort. It 
 was for this purpose that I have 'been commissioned to 
 undertake this inquiry, and I have requested your 
 kind co-operation. I believe that in the circumstances 
 it is our duty to publish the unvarnished fruth, and no 
 more. As I feel quite sure that your object is the same, 
 I doubt not that you will see your way to alter the 
 w'ording of that sentence, sO' as to remove any possible 
 risk of misinterpretation." 
 
 345. Is Mr. Hayfaurst here? 
 
 .Mr. Joseph Hathtjest, Secretary of the Operative 
 Dyers' Society, having been called in, 
 
 {Mr. Singer.) I have been reading the letter, Mr. 
 Hayhurst, written to you on your reiport where I 
 objected to certain expressions you used, and we have 
 
 now arrived at your reply. " In reply to your*, 
 of the 12th July last, I beg tO' enclose an amendment 
 of a paragraph to which you 'took some slight objec- 
 tion. If you will kindly insert the enclosed sheet in 
 the place of the one containing the objectionable para- 
 graph I shall be obliged. The report may then be 
 taiken, so far as it goes, as my statement of the case. 
 I shall 'be glad to join in a conference with yourself 
 and the factory inspector upon the subject in question. 
 Meanwhile, I remain, faithfully yours." The amended^ 
 paragraph is as follows : — First it was "_ Amongst the 
 characteristics common to the occupation" — now it 
 reads >as follows : — "I have frequently come in contact 
 with men engaged in this occupation suffering from one 
 or more of the following complaints." 
 
 346. (Chairman.) Now your point is, Mr. Singer, 
 that this loss of appetite, excessive spitting, would be 
 the result of poisoning, of the copper poisoning ? — My 
 contention is not that there have not been cases of sick- 
 ness from anUin poisoning, or that the Amalgamated 
 Association has not had to grant sick pay for it. My 
 contention is that anilin black dyeing is not more dan- 
 gerous than any other dyeing, and certainly no need 
 to be so. Wbilst admitting that the men are handling; 
 poisonous substances which in some processes are 
 giving off objectionable fumes, the process need not be 
 more dangerous than the burning of coal under a boiler 
 which also gives off noxious fumes. 
 
 347. You go further than that, you say there is no. 
 poisoning? — That is so. 
 
 348. That is the point you take up ? 
 
 349. (Mr. nayhurst.) And which I differ from. ' 
 
 Mr. Joseph Hathtjest, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. Hay- 350. (Chairman.) You are secretary of the Operative 
 hurst. Dyers' Society? — ^Yes. I have sent to the Secretary of 
 
 the Committee a precis of the evidenos I want to give — 
 
 each gentleman has a copy of a letter I sent, I believe. 
 Mr. Singer has commented upon a paragraph which I 
 altered. 
 
 351. We shall come to the whole of that presently. 
 Your proof takes the form, does not it, Mr. Hayhurst, 
 of a visit to certain works, and you narrated what you 
 have seen? — That is so. 
 
 352. You visited, I think, four factories? — Yes. 
 
 353. And it is upon what you saw at these four 
 factories that you are going to give us evidence? — In 
 regard to the former part of it I have there stated aU I 
 can state with regard to inspection evidence, and there- 
 fore I thinik that that written evidence should be taiken 
 as what I saw in those four works. 
 
 354. Apart from that, this is the evidence that you 
 wi'slh to put before us as what you saw, and perhaps you 
 will add anything vou desire to say after that ? — I will 
 add after tha/fc the opinions I hold. The proof of evi- 
 dence is a statement of fact not disputed, agreed to 
 by Mr. Singer and myself, and the letter is an expres- 
 sion of opinion which I ■^ant to substantiate. 
 
 355. (Professor Allbutt.) These four works are all 
 part of the Association ? — Yes. 
 
 356. (Chairman.) We will take these in the notes 
 bodily. 
 
 Repost oe Visit to Anilin Dtewobks. 
 
 June 19th and 22nd, 1905. 
 
 At the invitation of Mr. I. Singer, instructed by the 
 managing directors of the Bradford Dyers' Association, 
 Ltd., I accompanied that gentleman over the following 
 woifks, on Monday and Thursday, June 19th and 22nd, 
 1905: 
 Messrs. A. 
 Messrs. B. 
 Messrs. 0. 
 Messrs. D. 
 
 The object of these visits was to make inquiries into 
 the conditions under which workmen followed their em- 
 ployment, so far as the sanitary and other conditions 
 affecting the health of the workman were concerned. 
 
 Every facility wag given me to make these inquiries, 
 end full liberty was allowed to interrogate any worlonaji 
 
 with the object of eliciting information upon the sulb- 
 ject under consideration. 
 
 The following Observations were made, and informa- 
 tion obtained, in the works and departments visited : — 
 
 Messrs. A., 
 
 June 19th, 1905. 
 
 Liquor Mixing or Brewing. 
 
 Three large tanks are fixed in a gairet, the plac* 
 was lofty and partly covered with glass, in the roof there 
 would be at least eight opening windows. To my sur- 
 prise although the day was hot all the windows were 
 closed, and from inquiries from the workmen discharg- 
 ing the duties of mixer I was informed tShat it was not 
 the practice to open them. This I could readily 
 believe for the reason that the handles to open the- 
 windows were quite rusty. 
 
 The workman concerned stated that he had not beern 
 detrimentally affected, except upon one occasion, at the 
 fire of another firm, while following a similar occupa- 
 tion, when an accident happened in opening a cask, 
 iwhen he was badly burned and had to be put under 
 medical treatment. 
 
 The process of brewing was demonstrated, in whicih. 
 process dangerous fumes are given off. The most 
 dbjectionable part of this process is in men emptying 
 liquor into the vats, during which time the men must 
 inhale the dangerous fumes referred to. A promise: 
 was given on the spot that steps would be taken im- 
 mediately to alleviate this, not only at these works, but 
 at all others where a similar process was carried on. 
 
 The place required lime-wasihing and generally clean- 
 ing up. Providing these matters were attended to, and: 
 the man in charge saw to the windows being opened, I 
 should be unable to make further recommendations. 
 
 Pulling off Machine after Ager. 
 
 This machine was placed in a veiy dai-k room. To. 
 provide ventalation, boards had been taken off the roof, 
 which led into a room albove ; this, however, did not 
 draw the air, as the draught was through an open door- 
 way into the dyehouse. Two men had previously given 
 notice and left this job, alleging that it was ruining 
 their health. The man at present employed oni the 
 work complained of green dust, and stated it affected 
 his chest, and made him unable to eat his food. The 
 place would be improved by a general cleaning up more- 
 light, and better ventilation. 
 
DEPAPvIMENTAL COMMITTEE ON IXDUSTRTAL DISEASES. 
 
 13 
 
 Ager. 
 
 This was one of the old type, constructed so that the 
 men coiild not walk inside. The man in charge when 
 questioned did not make any complaints as to the 
 effects of the process upon his health, and further stated 
 that as a rule he fcijoyed fairly igood health. 
 
 Jiggers. 
 
 CSiroming jiggers. — The drainage of these is from the 
 clack in the jigger only. There are no grates round 
 the jiggers, and apparently no means for water to get 
 away except through the opening named ; the result 
 was that the floor was sloppy with chrome, dyeware, and 
 water, and presented a very unpleasant appearance. 
 
 Upon the men being asked where they washed their 
 hands which were generally hlaok as ink, they stated 
 that pails were scarce, and they had to do the best they 
 could. 
 
 The foreman stated that there was a plentiful supply 
 of pails. We had our attention drawn to these at the 
 end of each jigger, but as was stated they were for carry- 
 iuig dyeware, and had to te used for this purpose for 
 each roll chromed. 
 
 A pail of clean water, kept for the purpose of wash- 
 ing of hands, would certainly be more safe and sanitary. 
 
 One man was working on the jigger with (badly 
 chromed hands. He stated that he had worked in a 
 dyehouse all his life, but had never been previously 
 affected. 
 
 He was reoenltly put to a drying machine, the friction 
 of the pieces by some means broke the skin off his hands, 
 he was then sent back to the jigger, when his hands 
 ■broke out with chrome poisoning, otherwise he seemed 
 very healthy. At these works there seemed to be a lack 
 of provision for men to warm their meals, or store their 
 food or clothes, having to hang them up in any comer 
 possible, generally in contact with dust and steam, and 
 smell. There is no dining-room, and generally the 
 ventilation is not good. 
 
 Messrs. B. 
 
 Brewing Department. 
 This was quite modern, and with a different arrange- 
 ment for charging. I could not make further recom- 
 mendations. Two men were questioned in this depart- 
 ment ; they stated that apart from a very serious acci- 
 dent which had occurred recently owing to fumes given 
 off from the process, they had no complaint to make, and 
 were not aware that they were detrimentally affected 
 in health. 
 
 Ager. 
 
 The only ager running was one of the old style. This 
 was quite close to a Mercerising machine which was 
 giving off great heat. The department was dark and 
 almost stifling with heat and smell, and under the con- 
 ditions I saw it was totally unfit for any man to work in. 
 The men complained that they could not eat, and that 
 they had a sweet taste in their mouths, and that green 
 dust was prevalent, i was assured that this ager was 
 to be taken down and another placed in better condi- 
 tions. A second ager which was standing was placed in 
 a clean, airy room, and the men in charge made no com- 
 plaints. 
 
 Padding. 
 
 These were placed in a fine, airy well-ventilated 
 department, and the men had no complaints to make. 
 The men were provided with buckets, soap, and towels 
 to wash their hands when necessary. A dining-room 
 was provided, and good provision obtained for hot 
 water and the warming of food. 
 
 Lockers are provided for storing food, but these are 
 placed in an undesirable position, dust and smell com- 
 ing in contact with the food. During the last few years 
 great improvements have taken place at these works 
 in the matter of increased cuibic air space, better 
 ventilation, and apart from the surroundings of the 
 first ager the greatest cleanliness and order seems to be 
 olbserved. 
 
 Every credit is due to the firm for the efforts which 
 have >been made for the comfort and convenience of the 
 worltTnen. 
 
 Messrs. C. 
 
 Mr. J. Hay- 
 hurst. 
 
 Brewing Department. 
 Similar to that at Messrs B. The men made no 1 Nov. 190 6. 
 complaints as to its effect on health, but the depart- 
 ment would b3 improved by a little more ventilation. 
 
 A liquor room below this was a very undesirable 
 place. It was without ventilation except a doorway 
 which led into the dyehouse. Dark and sloppy. Men 
 complained of being ill when working in this depart- 
 ment, and several had been off work in consequence. 
 
 Padding Department. 
 
 There was more dust in this department than any 
 previously visited. The chroming pads were in a 
 corner which was dark owing to a wooden structure 
 overhead, uhe ventilation was unsatisfactory, men were 
 muzzled when getting on their pieces in consequence 
 of the air being heavily charged with fine particles of 
 cotton impregnated with chemicals. Questioned, the 
 men stated that they could not eat their food when at 
 work owing to loss of appetite, but this improved when 
 they got into the fresh air and to their homes. Most 
 of the men seemed very anaemic. 
 
 The manager stated that steps would be taken imme- 
 diately to improve their department. 
 
 Agers. 
 
 These were similar in construction to other works 
 visited, but appeared to be more crowded together. The 
 ventilation was poor, and overhead there appeared to 
 be a maze of pipes and hangings which darkened the 
 place and created a general depressing effect. Pro- 
 vision for storing clothes, food, and for warming food 
 appeared entirely absent. I was afterwards shown a 
 dining-room provided with tables, forms, a long row of 
 wash-ibasins, lavatories, and cooking stoves. This is 
 not yet open, but will shortly be in use. It is one of 
 the finest works' dining-rooms I have ever seen, and 
 reflects the greatest credit to those responsible for its 
 provision. I trust it will be appreciated by the work- 
 men, and it cannot fail to create an higher industrial 
 eflBciency of the men. 
 
 Messrs. D. 
 Brewing Department. 
 
 This is an ideal place for the purpose. There are 
 two large doors placed at each end of the room, and I 
 should imagine no complaints will arise as to injury 
 to health of those engaged therein. 
 
 Ager. 
 
 This was being run by a new process. Quite re- 
 cently, in attending the machine proceeding but 
 attached to the ager, men had been overcome by the 
 fumes, and a number of them had been off work sick. 
 This was admitted, but alterations were promised, 
 which it was hoped would prevent the complaints. At 
 this end of the ager there was no ventilation, and it 
 was very hot and unpleasant. 
 
 At the further end was a large door, at least 9 ft. by 
 9ft. leading to the open air. This provided good 
 ventilation for part of the space occupied by the 
 machine. 
 
 Padding Department. 
 
 In two of these the driving pullies, some iSin. or 2tt. 
 in diameter, were unfenced, and in a very dangerous 
 position. 
 
 Jiggers. 
 
 The men here wore cloth over their mouths and 
 nostrils when getting on the pieces to keep out the 
 dust. There was not so much dust as at some other 
 firms visited, and the men did not complain of being 
 ill with their occupation. One case of chrome poison- 
 ing was brought to our notice, and the man was in a 
 very bad state. 
 
 A large number of the windows in the roof, 5ft. by 
 l^ft., were out altogether, and while this state of 
 things may help to ventilate the works in dry summer 
 
14 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 Mr. J. Hay- weather, it must be very objectionable working in wet 
 hutf. weather. At these works there is no place to store 
 
 food or clothes. We saw food in wrappers and tins in 
 
 1 Nov. 1906. almost every part of the dyehouse amongst dust and 
 
 dirt, and where chrome and other injurious chemicals 
 
 were being used. There is no provision where men 
 aiay warm a meal. I observed no provision whereby 
 men might conveniently wash their hands, and men 
 had to eat their food in any place they could find. In 
 these respects the conditions were deplorable, and 
 amongst the worst we had seen. In consideration of 
 the foregoing report I desire to make the following 
 observations : — 
 
 I have frequently come in contact with men engaged 
 in this occupation suffering from one or more of the 
 following complaints : — 
 
 Loss of appetite. 
 
 Excessive spitting. 
 
 Irritation of the nostrils and bleeding of the nose. 
 
 Frequent vomiting. 
 
 Pale blue lip®.. 
 
 Affections of the lungs. 
 
 Anaemia. 
 
 Palpitation of the heart. 
 
 General debility and loss of flesh. 
 
 Chrome or other chemical poisoning. 
 
 Irritation and rashes on the skin. 
 
 The direct cause of these complaints I do not pre- 
 sume to have the technical and scientific knowledge to 
 explain, but that they are facte I am cerfain, because 
 they have come under my direct observations. 
 
 During the last two or three years I am glad to 
 state that, in my opinion, great improvements have 
 been made. 
 
 The preparation and handling of the dye stuffs have 
 been improved. The general sanitary arrangements 
 have undergone marked change for the better. The 
 quantity of green dust impregnating the atmosphere 
 has been greatly minimised, and artificial ventilation 
 by fans has been largely introduced. 
 
 But there is yet room for further improvement. 
 
 I am satisfied that one of the most contributory 
 causes of many of these complaints is when the pieces, 
 after passing through the ager and taken to a jigger or 
 pad, and during the first end while dry, give off fine 
 particles of cotton and dust, which are impregnated 
 with the chemicals or dyes through which the pieces 
 have previously passed.' This being in many cases in- 
 haled by the workmen, either through the mouth or 
 nostrils, must come into contact with the lungs or 
 stomach, and set up some of the complaints named. 
 
 Strict attention should be given to ventilation to 
 remove as far as possible the pungent smell common to 
 all aniline dyeing. 
 
 Ample provision should be provided for workmen to 
 wash their hands after any process that might be 
 proved to be injurious. 
 
 Rooms should be available where workmen might 
 put their clothes not required to be worn when work- 
 ing, so that they would be fresh and sweet after leav- 
 ing their employment. 
 
 Lockers should be provided for the workmen's food, 
 BO that it should not be about in dust, steam, and 
 dirt, and so that it may not, as at present in many 
 oases, become tainted before it is eaten. 
 
 An adjournment to a dining-room in which to par- 
 take of meals could not fail to have a beneficial effect. 
 
 I desire to. express my thanks for the opportunity 
 given to me to make the observations herein contained, 
 and I trust imp.roved sanitary arrangements, continued 
 forethought for the comfort and health of the workmen, 
 may produce a more healthy, contented, and indus- 
 trially efficient operative. 
 
 357. {Chairman.) Instead of taking you all through 
 this, I simply propose to put that in as yo.ur 
 notes of the visits. Now in these notes you describe ■ 
 the processes that you there saw ? — Yes. ' ' ' 
 
 358. You say now in the first place, with regard to 
 the process of brewing or what would be ca\led mixing — 
 I suppose it is the same thing? — ^Yes. .' " . 
 
 359. Mixing the aniHn, oil .with, certain aoidsi?— Yes. , 
 
 360. You say that dangerous fumes -were givenoff ? — 
 
 Y«B. 
 
 361. "A most objectionable part of this process is in ■ 
 . men emptying the liquor into the vats." Do you m«an 
 
 the acid from the anilin ? — That I can hardly ^ive you 
 
 a scientific explanation of; it is when they have put the 
 acid into the anilin oils that fumes come out, during 
 the process of what we call the brewing. 
 
 362 Yes I think we may take that as common 
 cround admitted .by Mr. Singer and everybody— that if 
 those fnmes were inhaled they would be dangerous .f— So 
 dangerous that men have been at the infirmary three 
 days unconscious with them. 
 
 363. Do the men inhale the fumes ? — I have a man 
 here who has worked at this job, and he has had to be 
 taken off the job because of the danger to his life.' 
 They cannot avoid the fumes. 
 
 364. That is the point. Mr. Singer thinks they can 
 be out of the room ?— That is impossible under existing 
 circumstances. 
 
 365. Oould not they leave the room directly the a;oid 
 had been mixed? — No, for the reason they have to put 
 the acid in from carboys. Two men pour it in-.- The 
 moment the acid g«ts, into the lift the reaction of the 
 various chemicals begins to operate. 
 
 366. I understood that the acid is put in first and the 
 anilin oil is put in afterwards? — Whichever process 
 is adopted, the result is the same. 
 
 367. Whenever they get in contact, whichever is put 
 in first ? — Whichever is put in first this brewing or re- 
 action starts. 
 
 368. How long does it take to empty the carboys?— 
 That is the point I should like 
 
 369. The point is that the m.en are not present in "the 
 room where the tank is, where the mixing takes place? 
 . — That I absolutely deny. 
 
 370. It is only in some of the works where the precau- 
 tion of putting the tank in another room different from 
 the place where the acids are poured in is adopted? — 
 Yes. 
 
 371. If there are places where it is not carried out, 
 there are places where the men are subject to poison? — 
 In my written precis I have said that these mixing 
 rooms should be made the subject of regulation. 
 
 372-3. Your point is that in certain cases where the 
 men are present at the mixing, deleterious, fumes arise 
 which are poisonous ? — ^Yes, and that takes place at 
 present. 
 
 374. Did you see at ths works of Messrs. A. men 
 exposed to these fumes ? — ^Yes ; I had' better say that I 
 saw both the men and the method of mixing. There 
 was no other way except of taking a carboy to the 
 top sids and pouring it in. 
 
 375. Did you see the fumes ?^They were not brewing 
 at the moment, but I have the man here who did Ithe 
 brewing. 
 
 376-7. Now, have you anything to say about the 
 ager ? — With regard to the ager, there is this about it : 
 When you get into a place where the ager is there is a 
 strong pungent smell. I think there is harm, 
 but it has been vastlv improved from what 
 it was. Wherever you have an anilin dye-house, 
 even in the office itself, you are affected by anilin. 
 If you will take the trouble to sit in the ofiica at 
 any anilin dyeworks for half an hour I venture to 
 Bay you will have several sensations. You will' smell 
 strong, pungent smells ; the next is that yon want to 
 wash your hands, they become husky and hard.' 
 
 378'. The fact that you have smelt a em.ell and your 
 hands become affected would not necessarily prove 
 that there was a poison. You can imagine one having 
 a very smoky chimney in a room, but one is not 
 poisoned? — I am not saying that this is.poisoningi 
 
 1 379. What is your point, then? — I am only saying 
 I that this' is some evidence thalt there is, some snbstance 
 ■present other' than there is in this room or in the 
 street. 
 
 ; 360. Now then, have you anything to say about the 
 ■jiggers, the chroming jiggers? — The men at. the chrom- 
 ing jiggers are affeotsd largely in some branches. After 
 the stuff is chromed it gives off a copper dust. I 
 am not a chemist^^from the commion observation point 
 o-f viewcthe chrome affects men's hands. I have here 
 .three photographs; (and I have got the person here) 
 to show how men are affected. 
 
 -. 381. Now I think you may take it, Mr. Hayhurst, 
 
 ithat Mr. Singer fully .concedes that these pustules 
 
 ' affect the skin. There is no use our disputing facts 
 
 admitted. There is no doubt that these ulcers are pro- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 15 
 
 luced. Mr. Singer's view is, that though these erup- 
 ions are very unpleasant, ithey do not really incapaci- 
 ate the man from work, at any rate, not to his know- 
 edge immediately. Only a certain number of people 
 j'e subject to these, pustuleis, and h© adlnits that they 
 ;an bei produced in, a certain number of men, and an 
 .ppreciable number of men, but he says that it is very 
 lasy to get rid of them' by transferring those affected . 
 
 another branch of the establishment, and the ulcers 
 rill then heal up ? — That is true in some cases, but 
 re have innumerable cases where once men have 
 )ecome affected by chrome it appears as though in 
 ipringtime and autumn the diseasti acts upon them 
 igain, and all the symptoms of chrome poisoning 
 repeat themselves. 
 
 382-3. (Professor Allhutt.) When thev have gone to 
 mother works ? — Yes ; and we have men who have been 
 effected ten years, and as sure as the autumn comes 
 round they are aflfected not only on their hands, but all 
 3ver th© body. 
 
 584. How far does that breaking out, though of course 
 it is unpleasant — ^how far does that prevent a man 
 working? — ^It will depend on the part of the body on 
 which it breaks out. If it breaks out on his chest or 
 his back he may work, but if it breaks out on his 
 bands, it is not safe for him to work, because when 
 the matter bursts there is an exposure, and he may 
 come in contact with chrome and get blood poisoning. 
 
 385. Then the eruption may arise in parts which are 
 not directly exposed to the poison itself? — The effects 
 of chrome poisoning may show themselvea in his 
 hands, or eruptions may break out all over his body, 
 8ven where chrome has not touched it. 
 
 386. It is not necessarily confined to the parts which 
 com© in contact with the chrome ? — Oh, no, Sir. 
 
 387. (Chairman.) I think you were inclined to be of 
 opinion, from the inspection of Messrs. A.'s works, 
 that some more pails and washing apparatus 
 would be a good thing ? — I do, sir. They wer© absent 
 when w© were there, or rather I should say they _wer© 
 present, but the men were told to wash out and use 
 the pails that they were using in anilin dyeing, and 
 it seemed to me that the water would be a solution of 
 water and anilin dye. 
 
 383. But apparently, as far as we can learn, am I 
 not correct in saying that, so far as "the washing aippa- 
 ratus and so on is concerned, the employers, at all 
 events in] this Association, seem desirous of doing all 
 they* can to improve matters ? — ^I believe some of the 
 employers in this Association have adopted the best 
 means, and are most ready to take up suggestions for 
 the improvement of the works and for the miniTtiising 
 of danger. 
 
 389. And they would provide washing apparatus ? — 
 
 1 suppose you want me to be perfectly candid. Well, 
 I believe this inquiry took place last year — it was a 
 joint inquiry of Mr. Singer and myself — and our vs- 
 commendations have not been carried out, and it would 
 be wrong for mo to say that they readily take up ,sug- 
 gestions. 
 
 390. They are ready to do so if pressed? — ^I quite 
 appreciate Mr. Singer's efforts to improve this occupa- 
 tion, but Mr. Singer, like myself, is a servant, and the 
 improvements have not been carried out to my mind to 
 the extent that the seriousness of the case demanded. 
 
 301-3. Now you went to Messrs. B.'s works. Have 
 you anything particularly different to say with regard 
 to those works other than you have told us? — I regard 
 these works as probably the most sanitary that there 
 are in the anilin trade in this district. 
 
 394. You consider this one of the best. Did you 
 there see the mixing department? — ^Yes. 
 
 395. Was the mixing done by the men pouring in 
 the acid ?-^— It was pouirsd by th© men directly into the 
 tank. When they were brewing the men had to stand 
 it the tank side while th© fumes were coming up. 
 
 396. They had to ?— Yes. 
 
 397. I gather that th^ ager was an old style agar ? — ■ 
 fes. Sir. 
 
 398. Now the men complained there that they could 
 lot eat. land had a sweet taste in their mouth, and that 
 p-een dust was prevalent ! — Yes. 
 
 , 399. Did you see the gr©en duet? — I did. 
 400. Wharfc is that composed of? — It a.pp©ars to m© 
 
 to be dust which comes from a, piece, after it has been jfff,_ j^ Hay- 
 through the ager, and to consist of particles of dye. A hurst. • 
 
 certain action of these dyes takes place in the fabric, 
 
 because actually it is not dyeing, it is creating a 1 Nov. 1906. 
 chemical change, and in that change there appears to 
 be a process very much like brewing, and certain ele- 
 ments are given off. When the pieces come out of the 
 ager they pass through the jiggers and the drying 
 machine. It is in these processes that dust is gene- 
 rated, and these particles float about the air, and you 
 will see in any dyeworks, if it has not been recently 
 swept up, a very large amount of green dust, which 
 is said to be some of the copper or verdigris, as it is 
 dsscribed by the men. 
 
 401. And is that, in your judgment, what produces 
 the dust ? — I think =o, Sir. 
 
 402. Is there anything else in that factory to which 
 you would like to call our special attention ? — I think 
 it is one of the best I visited. 
 
 403. Now take Messrs. C's works ; how was the mix- 
 ing done there, or the brewing ? — In the same way as 
 at Messrs. B. 
 
 404. The men there would be exposed to the fumes ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 405-7. You did not see the fumes ? — I do not r©mem- 
 ber that they were actually putting the liquids together 
 when w© were there. The dust has always been mora 
 prevalent at Messrs. O.'s works than at any other 
 works. There we have always had the most serious 
 causes of complaint, and I shall ask you to go to- the 
 Bradford Infirmary to see the la,test forms. 
 
 408. Now we come to Messrs. D. 'is works. How is 
 the mixing done there ? — The mixing there was the 
 best I saw, for the reason that at each end of the 
 building there are two great doors whers th© air is 
 passing through. Here, again, the men put the liquids 
 through the tank when mixing takes place, but the 
 strong currents of air seem to minimise th© objection, 
 not to get rid of it altogether, but certainly there would 
 be less cause of complaint. 
 
 409. It would be a very obvious precaution to pour 
 the liquid from on© room into another and let nobody 
 be in the mixing room? — As to the technicalities of 
 that process, I hardly consider myself able to judge. 
 I have a man here who has done th© job, because the 
 two men who mix have certain things to do. They 
 have what is oomimonly called in the dyehouse totalling 
 the specific gravity, and in that it is necessary for them 
 toi be very precise, or else the blacks are weak 
 unless the liquid is made to a proper proportion. Of 
 course, it may be alleged that if you put a carboy of 
 one proportion and something else of another it will 
 be exact. Nevertheless, these men are called upon 
 from time to time to say that the liquid is in proper 
 proportion. 
 
 410. You mean that somebody must be in the room ? 
 — What I mean is that the men employed have respon- 
 sibilities apart from actually pouring the liquid in. 
 
 411. Now with reference to the ager in Messrs. D.'s 
 works : is ther© dust there ? — ^There is dust in all 
 agers, arising from the ageing. When w© wer© there 
 th©y were dyeing what is called a prussio process of 
 anilin black dyeing — ^pardon me being short of the 
 scientific knowledge — and thnaa men, during the week 
 previous tOi our going, had fainted away exhausted from. 
 the filmes and the prussic process. 
 
 412. I think we will now take what you know 
 about th© diseases and illneeses resulting from this 
 dyeing. You had beitt©r give it us in your own 
 words ? — This is the most difficult part of our whol© 
 business, for while medical men do give us certificates 
 saying that the diseases are caused by the occupation, 
 they are reluctant to go into particulars. Although 
 men do not die immediately of these diseases, I am 
 satisfied that a verv large number have died of these 
 trad© diseases and of complications arising from them. 
 Our difficulty appears to have been that when we have 
 pressed the medical men, although they have given 
 certificates that the disease arose from the occupation, . 
 they seemi to have had great reluctance to go into 
 detail. For what reason I cannot say. I have enumer- 
 ated in the last page of that report some ideas of mine, 
 in rather a crude way, as to the effects of anilin 
 dyeing. Dr. Legge has also made a report upon the 
 subject, with which I heartily agree, and I do not think 
 I can give much better evidence than what is stated 
 in the report of Dr Legge, and it seems to me to put 
 
16 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 J. Hag- 
 hurst. 
 
 1 Nov. 1906, 
 
 in scientific and proper terms what I have put in 
 rather an ignorant and clumsy way in that short out- 
 line. I have brought here with m'3 some cases to-day. 
 We have a case here of a man who is dead, named 
 
 . He went tO' work at Meesre. A., and after a 
 
 timo had to leave. He took a job as an agent outside, 
 wanting to get into the fresh air. The business did 
 not succeed, and he went back to Messrs A.'s works 
 about three months ago. He had not worked long 
 when hs was taken ill. The doctor who attended him 
 applied a stomach pump, and stated " we have got up 
 some nasty black stuff." He said he had been 
 poisoned. He was taken to the infirmary suffering 
 from enbsric fever and meningitis, and he is certified 
 by Dr. Kitchin as having died from that complaint. 
 
 413. Was that stuff from the stomach efver analysed ? 
 — ^No, I do not think it was. 
 
 413*. What was the date of that case ? Was this the 
 death certified on the 24th of October, 1906 ?— You have 
 a copy of the death certificate. 
 
 414. I suppose, Mr. Hayhurst, that part of the hesi- 
 tation of the doctors in these cases is owing to the 
 difficulty of saying whether the particular illness is 
 due to poisoning or due to something else? — They 
 ■draw up the certificates in the first plaos in a vague 
 wiay, as doctors usually do. First, I have put these 
 certificates in. They are all verv spiacific, but when 
 we ask "them to make out a report we find that they 
 hesitate very much. I might give you my experience 
 of that. We decided to make an investigation into 
 anilin and chrome poisoning. We engaged Dr. Eurich 
 and Dr. Munro to conduct the investigations, and the 
 men were to be brought to my office to be examined. 
 Dr. Eurich conducted the investigation for about one 
 month. He then asked me the object of this investiga- 
 tion and I told him that the object was that we were 
 securing evidence to prove that anilin and chrome dye- 
 ing were dangerous. I never saw Dr. Eurich again, 
 although prepared to pay for his services. Dr. Munro 
 finished the investigation, and here is his report. 
 {Beport handed in.). 
 
 415. Now we com© to these certificates that you have 
 handed up. I will read one. I will read a portion of it. 
 
 " I hereby certify that I have been attending Mr. — ■ 
 
 for the past two davs. He has a severe ulcerated 
 throat with high temperature." And then "probably 
 the throat has been caused to a certain extent by 
 -working with chrome " ? — That is very vague. 
 
 416. But that illustrates the difficulty which I am 
 assuming a perfectly honest doctor may feel with regard 
 to citing a matter of this sort ? — You will see. Sir, that 
 medical mem, as a rule, have no knowledge of occupa- 
 tions, and especially chrome and anilin dyeing. 
 Chrome thev have, but in the matter of anilin dyeing 
 they have not been conversant with the various pro- 
 cesses of brewing or with an ager, and they are very 
 rsluctant to express opinions. 
 
 417. And that rather points, you mean, to the em- 
 ployment of some medical man who has a vast experi- 
 ence of these particular diseases which you allege to 
 be due to employment? — Yes, but to- myself who see 
 these cases, they are peculiar to the trade. The same 
 cases do not occur in other phases of dyeing. 
 
 418. There are certain cases at the hospitals here 
 which you can show ? — I have on© I want you to see. 
 
 419. You have cases of anilin poisoning of which 
 you have had no doubt yoursslf? — I will bring 
 men in, and I submit probably that they will 
 yet have traces of affections about them which would 
 demonstrate to you the direct causei of this complaint. 
 
 420. Is it said by the doctors you have con- 
 sulted or who have given you their opinions that 
 this poison is so specific that if you had a very ex- 
 perienced man he could definitely pronounce that this 
 is anilin poisoning, and not anything else? — ^I have 
 not had that opinion espressed to me. 
 
 421. The symptoms then of anilin poisoning are 
 rather like the symptoms you might get from ordinary 
 disease, the mere symptoms? — The symptoms so far 
 as I can see become complicated, and if I was toi ex- 
 press an opinion it would be this, that when a man 
 becomes affected with anilin poisoning we expsot his 
 physique to rapidly fall, we expect him to lose flesh, 
 to become anjemic, and were it possible for me to 
 bring 100 men before you out of five dyehouses in Brad- 
 ford, I would allow you to form your own opinion, 
 
 and I do not expect that it would differ from mine. 
 Two things would attract vou — ^the weakness and the 
 want of flesh and the high state of ansemia, and if 
 you had them in a room you would smell them as 
 though some efiluvium was exuding from the skin^ 
 Th3 air becomes impregnated where they are together 
 in a room, and the odour is easy to tell. 
 • 422. A peculiar odour will exude from an anilin 
 dyer, a peculiar odour will exude from a man 
 poisoned with anilin which a person can recog- 
 nise and say it is anilin?'— It will exude frcm 100 
 workers who have not been under medical treatment. 
 I have had 100 men in a room with me. 
 
 423. (Professor Allbutt.) You are speaking inde- 
 pendently of the clothing? — They have been in their 
 dothes. 
 
 424. That is very important. You said it exuded 
 from their persons. 
 
 425. (Chairman.) You say there is a specific smell 
 from anilin dye workers quite different from that of 
 other workmen? — Yes. 
 
 426. Something specific, that a p:rson can recog- 
 nise ? — Yes. 
 
 427. And you can?— They all smell. 
 
 428. (Professor AllbuH.) But supposing they were in 
 their Sunday clothes ? — The same thing has been ob- 
 served at a meeting on Sundays. 
 
 429. (Chairman.) Might it not be that they had got a 
 lot of anilin on their dlothes, and it was not their 
 eixudation? — ^At meetings on Sundays — I am not giving 
 ervidence which is scientific — when they have not tiieir 
 working clothes, where theps are 30 men confined in a 
 small room there are traces of the same smell. 
 
 430. (Professor Allbutt.) But in a much less degree? 
 That suggests that it is largely a matter of clothing? — 
 I suggest that the poison gets intO' the system and 
 exudes through the blood or through the lungs. 
 
 431-2. Your two facts are these. That under ordinary 
 circumstances when the men have their dyehouse 
 clothes on, the efiluvium is very definite, and that on 
 Sundays when the men have got clean linea, and cer- 
 tainly not dyehouse clothes, this smell is very 
 much reduced ? — It is different to the smell of a meet- 
 ing of men engaged -in ordinary bleaching. Some part 
 of it remains. 
 
 433. (Chairman.) The point 1 am trying to elucidate 
 is this. The Bill provides for compensation to men 
 injured in the trade, but it appeals to be rather diffi- 
 cult on all hands to be quite sure that the dissases men- 
 tioned by you are caused by the trade. Look at the 
 certificates, you see where the difficulties arise ? — ^Well, 
 when ths symptoms are so common and appear in so 
 many men who are employed in this occupation, it 
 seems to us only proper that the diseases should be 
 regarded as due to occupation. We do not want to 
 appear in any hostile or vindictive spirit on this ques- 
 tion, because so far as the Bradford dyers are con- 
 cerned they have dons a great deal to minimise the 
 danger, but when we get a man who is robust, who 
 has ruddv cheeks and who is physically strong, and 
 we send him into the dyehouse, and we see the same in- 
 sidious change happening in each case, we are driven 
 slowly but gradually to the conclusion that the same 
 force has been at work. Indeed one man I could pro- 
 duce, who, while working at one of these works, turn- 
 ing the stuff into the liquor, has lost his voice — ^he is 
 now working at another factory of the same kind, and 
 may b3 seen to-day. It may be a dfficult thing to prove 
 that the loss of the voice was necessarily due to hia 
 occupation. 
 
 434. You are very likely right, but it is difficult to 
 prove ? — He was overcome with fumes, went home, and 
 never has had his voice since. He had to be taken out, 
 but he was not absolutely unconscious. 
 
 435. And that did the voice a permanent injury? 
 —He was at home some time. He has never had his 
 voice since. 
 
 436. Some of these are old oasesi, but Mr. Sincer 'S 
 of opinion that there are not many cases now at ai' 
 events ? — ^There are two quite recent cases. 
 
 437. What are the datss of these cases '—The sixth 
 certificate is signed 15th of October, 1906, and the man 
 now lies m the infirmary suffering from dropsy and 
 I am convinced that this has been caused by the 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 17 
 
 action of anilin on the heart, which has been a con- 
 tributory cause of the dropsy. 
 
 438. Is that one of the cases you want us to see ? — ■ 
 Yes. 
 
 459. {Professor Allbutt.) I might perhaps try to clear 
 the subject, which is a very difficult one, in this way. 
 You allege first of all that anilin — I do not quite under- 
 stand' in what precis© way — ^we can leave that — that 
 anilin slowly and insidiously invades the system with 
 a certain group of symptoms, we will say anaemia, 
 heart affection, and so on — ^that is a series which 
 would be fairly constant if made out. That series of 
 symptoms would b© fairly constant. There would be 
 no difficulty in making that out ? — ^I do not think you 
 will have any difficulty in making that out by exam- 
 ining people working in' the trade. 
 
 440. {Chairman.) We shall be able to establish a 
 pretty constant series of symptoms P — The case is clearly 
 made out by the report of Dr. Legge, which he pub- 
 lished in November. 
 
 441. {Professor Allbutt.) Then there is the question 
 of complications. When we speak of a complicated 
 case in medical language, we mean that the man mav 
 or. may not have been so reduced by this process that 
 he becomes a victim to some other disease? — Yes. 
 
 442. If you could keep the thing a little clear in your 
 mind, between the constant symptoms which follow 
 anilin poisoning and the subsidiary affections to which 
 any man may b3 liaible — it is very important to us 
 to get the uncomplicated, more or less constant, series 
 of symptoms directly due to the anilin poisoning itself 
 — 'if we settle that, then we can decide what are com- 
 plications. If you, as a common-sense observer, can 
 help us, as you are now doing, by giving us the 
 characteristic series of symptoms, we should be much 
 obliged to you. What do you think are the charac- 
 teristic symptoms in an uncomplicated case? I will 
 put it in this way. So far as a common-sense observer 
 can tell us, what would you say is the seriias of symp- 
 toms characteristic of anilin poisoning, omitting for 
 the moment any undercurrent disorders? 
 
 443. {Chairman.) Before you answer the Professor's 
 question, I should like to find out what is meant by the 
 phra&3 anilin poisoning. Is it a general expression of 
 the dyeworkers at dyeworks ? — Yes, it is a general ex- 
 pression. 
 
 444. Is anilin regarded as a poison ?^That I cannot 
 explain ; it would require a scientist. 
 
 445. In your department do these deteriorations of 
 the system take place? — ^It is common to all depart- 
 ments except in the grey room ; it is common in the 
 ageing, the padding, the jigger, and the drying 
 machines. 
 
 446. But surely the conditions are very different in 
 those departments? — As a rule the ager is in contact 
 with the padding maohuie ; the material goes through 
 the mercerising pro<»ss, where there is no actual 
 caustic, and other things. There can be no anilin there. 
 It is dried, and than go^/o to the preparing pans. There 
 the anilin liquor comes from the brewing. Close to the 
 preparing is the ager, right close to it, and then at 
 the end of the ager are the striking pads or jiggers, and 
 at the end of the jiggers, the chromating jiggers, is the 
 washing-oS machine and the drying machine. Now 
 during all these proo3sses there seemiS to be this takes 
 place. First, there is brewing, the most dangerous 
 process ; the liquoT goes into the preparing pan, and 
 the piece goes through and takes up part of the liquor. 
 It then goes through the ager at a temperature of 
 130 to 140. There appear to be some changes 
 take place there, saad the liquor in some form crystallises. 
 TTiat gives off a fine dust, the pieces go through and at 
 the eni they get dried. Then when those pieces are 
 'aken to a jigger there is certain flapping about, and 
 you may see the dust on the machines, on the floor, and 
 on the shelves. That dust is inhaled by the men, and it 
 pets all round the department. 
 
 447. {Professor Allbutt.) You suggest that in all the 
 departments except one this supposed poisoning is 
 present? — I do, Sir. 
 
 448. In all but one?— All but the preparing, the 
 singeing, and the grey room. 
 
 449. Can tou go a little further than that, and say 
 whether you consider that the chrome has anything to 
 do with that?— The chrome? 
 
 450. Th© effect of chrome on the skin ? — ^I think the 
 41>> 
 
 effect of chrome may operate both on the skin and the 
 system. 
 
 451-3. We admit that it operates on the skin. We 
 know that already. What symptoms would arise from 
 chrome affecting the general system, or can you not 
 divide that from the anilin .^—1 do not know how to 
 make a dividing line. 
 
 454. We will put the chrome out altogether, except 
 so far as it aff'scts the skin. But the peculiar thing 
 about this anilin dyeing is that you can hardly put 
 it out, for the reason that when the piece has gone to 
 
 the preparing room ? — To the dyehouse where 
 
 theTC is no anilin. 
 
 455. In that case the only symptoms w© find are 
 irritation of th© skin through chrome poisoning where 
 chrome is used ? — We have had cases where th© dye is 
 mixed not necessarilv from anilin but coal tar, but we 
 think that this has arisen from the men having in- 
 haled. 
 
 456. There we are getting complicated, but so far as 
 you know where there is no complication with anilin 
 the effects of chrome poisoning are purely external ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 457. The anilin does not produce any external effect 
 upon th© skin? — I have not observed any. 
 
 458. I think Mr. Singer said it ought to be washed off 
 very quickly?— I presume that it is washed off to 
 prevent the chance of it getting through the skin. 
 
 459. Having oome to that, I should like you to go 
 back to th.3 old question and give us, in your common- 
 sense, way, the series of symptoms that you have ob- 
 served in persons who are subject to the anilin ? — First 
 of all, let me say that no man will go into the anilin 
 dyeing if he can get a job out of it. 
 
 460. That is not exactly an answer to my question ? 
 — I want to show you that the men themselves do not 
 choose anilin dyeing, the ordinarv run of dyeing. I 
 find as a rale by keeping the men under observation 
 that they lose flesh, they lose weight, they become 
 anaemic. Their lips as a rule ar© blue, and they com- 
 plain that they ar© sleepy and drowsy. One man re- 
 cently who was very robust I sent to one of thsse 
 works. When h© had worked a fortnight — ^h© was a 
 cyclist and an athlete — ^he did not know what was th© 
 matter with him. He said : " I have never in my life 
 slept during the day, but when I got home on Saturday 
 dinner time I sat down and I slept till nine o'clock, 
 and my wife — during th© week when I sit down I sleep." 
 It produces a sense of lassitude and drowsiness. They 
 all seem short-winded. If they walk or run — there are 
 no runners amongst them — you cannot get athletes out 
 of anilin dyeing. They have palpitations, and they 
 think it is their hearts. The doctor says it is th© blood. 
 From that ther© seems to b© a number of complaints 
 arise. 
 
 461. I think we might stop vou there — ^thase symp- 
 toms you would consider the characteristic series, any 
 of the others might be accidental? — There are affec- 
 dons of the lungs. 
 
 462. We will come to the lungs in a moment. With 
 regard to these blood conditions, can you gi\e us any 
 idea what proportion of men have suffered ? — ^In the 
 anilin dyehouse thoy all suffer more or less from the 
 symptoms I have enumerated. 
 
 463. Universally? — Where the ager and the prepar- 
 ing pans and the chrome are in conjunction. 
 
 464. No man would escape in some degree? — My 
 opinion is not. They are all affected more or less. 
 
 465. How are the local organs affected — lungs or 
 anything else? — It has occurred tO' me that a man 
 having worked in these oonditionis becomes attacked 
 with a complaint. He does not know what. He spits 
 blood, or he has a disease such as dropsy, as in the 
 cas© of the man I cited. 
 
 466. These are odd cases ; you would not call them 
 characteristic? — ^The characteristic symptoms I have 
 given. Having wsakened the system, it appears to me 
 that it attacks a man in th© weakest place. 
 
 467. W© all know that when a man is lowered in 
 vitality he becomes more easily a prey to disease. I 
 think I have no other question to ask. 
 
 468. {Chairman.) Is there anything else, Mr. Hay- 
 hurst, you would like to call our attention to in con- 
 nection with this matter? It seems to me rather a 
 case in which good might be done by some special rules 
 
 C 
 
 Mr. J. Hay- 
 hurst. 
 
 1 N >v. 1906. 
 
18 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. Hoy- 
 hurst. 
 
 1 Nov. 1906. 
 
 in the trade. Such a rule as, for instance, that the 
 mixing be so arranged that the person who was pouring 
 could not be exposed to the fumes ? — Yes. 
 
 469. That it would be rather a good thing to re- 
 quire that in the whole of the trade? — Yes. 
 
 470. Or perhaps some requirements as to washing 
 might be a good thing? — Yes, sir. 
 
 471. Do the men whom you represent work in other 
 factories than those of the association of Mr. Singer? 
 — Some of them do. 
 
 472. There are some small works that are rather be- 
 hind the times, and some special rules would aid in 
 bringing those gentlemen up to the standai-d of the 
 better Arms ? — Yes. 
 
 473. Is there anything else you would like to add ? — • 
 There are just two points. We are asking that tho 
 man who suffers from this, and can be proved to suSer, 
 should have compensation, and we hope that any rules 
 will not be optional rules. 
 
 474. What do you mean ? — Not merely a recom- 
 mendation. 
 
 475. You mean that the rules should be compulsory ? 
 — W.3 feel that it would be most unfair to handicap by 
 rules the Bradford dyers, who have made the most con- 
 cessions — put up dining-rooms in some places, and have 
 always met us in the most sympathetic way — it would 
 be unfair to handicap them and not compel the othar 
 people who are engaged in competition with them in 
 the same trade to complv with those rules also. It 
 would be most unfair to the combine, and against the 
 intsrests of the men. Any rules should be compulsory. 
 
 476. Have you any impression whether these- ooon- 
 plaints, these symptoms that you have mentioned to us, 
 are more pre\'alent amongst men in the worst shops ? — 
 In most of the other shops anilin dyeing is a part only 
 of their process. The Bradford dyers have specialised. 
 They are all anilin dyers. In many places they are 
 dyeing wool and cotton, and the men are changing, and 
 it does not attack them so much as a man at a regular 
 job. 
 
 477. (Professor Allbuti.) Are you of opinion that in 
 the best dyeworks in Bradford that there is neverthe- 
 less some measure of this poisoning going on? — I am 
 ■satisfied that this poisoning does prevail in the very 
 Tbest works. 
 
 478. (Chairman.) Is it inhaled or taken from the 
 hands ? — ^I believe it is taken from the hands, and also 
 inhaled. 
 
 479. (Br. Legge.) Taking up this point of special 
 regulations. It is a matter of ventilation, removing 
 
 -fumes, and preventing people breathing the fumes? — 
 I thinJc that is one part of it. 
 
 480. There is also the matter of washing accommo- 
 dation ? — Yes. 
 
 481. And if those two were thoroughly carried out, 
 as they might be under the Factory Act, it would be 
 unnecessary to have amy special regulations ? — ^I do not 
 Bay that. Take two men working together. One man 
 falls and breais his arm, another man is attacked with 
 a heart affection, which can be demonstrated to be 
 caused by anilin. If one gets compensation, the other 
 ought to also. 
 
 482. But would special regulations eff«;t any im- 
 provement ? — We submit that if he is off his work two 
 months or three months, and the disease can be directly 
 traced to the inhalation or absorption of anilin, that 
 man ought to come within the Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Act. 
 
 483. You were saying that all the men were affected ? 
 '—■More or less. 
 
 484. Would it be safe to say that not 5 per cent, of 
 these men go on your sick club during the year. I 
 grant that they are affected to a slight extent, but ia 
 it an exaggeration to say that 10 per cent, go on youi 
 sick fund for relief because of 'symptoms produced in 
 this way? Are 10 per cent, of them ill during 
 the year, so ill that they have to give up their 
 work ? — I could not give evidence which is reliable. It 
 is somewhat complicated. We have certain rules that 
 a man has to pay his money weekly. If he runs over 
 thirteen weeks he cannot draw sick pay, and does not 
 bring a certificate, so that there are cases which do not 
 come to us ; and as to the percentages, unfortunately, 
 though I have taken the names and some particulars of 
 all the men who fall sick and come to us, I could not 
 with certainty answer that question. 
 
 485. But you can say whether it was 10 per cent. ? — 
 Well, it would be a case. 
 
 486. Out of the men who were affected it is only a 
 small proportion that would come in under the Work- 
 men's Compensation Act? — I suppose it would have 
 first to be demonstrated that the man was suffering 
 from the effect of some cause in the works. 
 
 487. And to such an extent that he was prevented 
 from earning his living? — Quite so. 
 
 488. The illness must mean that he cannot earn his 
 living, and the number of those would not be so very 
 large ? — If I put it at 5 per cent. I daresay it would be 
 somewhere near the mark. 
 
 489. But you would recognise it as a great relief to 
 get that measure, this 5 per cent. ? — I think it is an 
 element of justice to the men who are prevented from 
 working. 
 
 Alfked Smailet, General Secretary of the Bleachers', Dyers', and Finishers' Association, called and 
 
 examined. 
 
 Mr A 490. (Chairman.) You represent, I understand, the 
 , Smalley. bleachers of Lancashire and Cheshire, and you agree 
 . jrith what Mr. Hayhurst has said? — ^Y'es. 
 
 491. We take it, of course, that you present the 
 same case? — Yes. 
 
 Dr. Hamilton Stewart, called and examined. 
 
 Dr. H. 
 
 Skwaii. 
 
 4S2. (Professor Allbutt.) Dr. Hamilton Stewart, I 
 do not know whether you are kiad enough to come to 
 tell us about this one case of poisoning from African 
 boxwood in shuttle making, or whether you had more 
 than this experience? — Just this one case. 
 
 493. It is. the only case you have seen?— The only 
 «ase I have seen. One or two other cases have been 
 auspicious, but I have not been absolutely able to coni- 
 ■firm them. T^ere has probably been something else 
 the matter with the other cases at the same time. 
 
 494. I read this paper of yours last night. What 
 is the date that you were good enough to write this ? 
 —I wrote it a year ago. But I really got notes of it 
 between five or six years ago. I saw the man at tirst 
 when he had this attack, he was 34 years of age then. 
 
 495. Have you seen the man since ? — ^Yes, I saw him 
 the day before yesterday. 
 
 496. Would you like to make a general assertion of 
 this kind that when this illness came on, apparently. 
 
 certainly it was associated with his work during hi3 
 time at the shuttle works ; would you say that when 
 he left that work or when he was taken off that work 
 for a time, at anv rate, that he gradually improved ? — 
 Yes, he is quite right now. He begins to improve 
 almost immediately after he is taken off that work. 
 
 497. And has he gone back to that work? — ^Yes, he 
 goes back to shuttle making, but when they begin to 
 use that special wood he leaves oft work now, so he 
 has not had any attacks for some time — very consider- 
 able time. 
 
 498. He is working under different conditions ?— Yes, 
 whenever they hegin to saw that wood he leaves the 
 work, and then he is absent foi the time, but I saw 
 him dnring an attack several times, especially once. 
 You will notice from the account of the case that he 
 was very ill when he had this very acute attack. He 
 was ill for three weeks, and on getting better I 
 &3nt him to Ilkley Conva,leacent Home. He was' away 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 19 
 
 six weeks, and on returning he started his work again, 
 but, unfortunately, they were using this wood again, 
 and that same day he was as bad as ever. 
 
 499. Coming a little further, asking you in some 
 degree as an expert, your opinion is that his suffering 
 was due to workftig this boxwood ? — ^Yes. 
 
 500. And in a. few other cases to a slight extent ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 501. Is there anything you would like to say more 
 about it?— I do not think so. The man is all right 
 now. He is quite a healthy man. After he has had an 
 attack like this he is right a few weeks afterwards. 
 
 502. (Chairman.) Do other people suffer besides? 
 Does everybody sufEer exposed to the_ wood, or is it 
 rather an idiosyncrasy? — ^It is an idiosyncrasy to a 
 certain extent. There are some men who do not suffer. 
 
 503. It is said he leaves when they begin to cut the 
 wood up? — ^Yes. 
 
 504. Other people are engaged with this same wood, 
 I suppose ? — I do not think they have cut up much of 
 this wood in this shuttle shop now for some time. 
 
 505. You said he left when they began to cut wood 
 up. Does anybody else out it there? — ^Yes, but none 
 suffer so markedly as he. 
 
 506. But there are some other cases? — There are, 
 from what I have heard ; there are other men who have 
 suffered. 
 
 507. {Dr. Legge.) From what you have heard of other 
 men working — from other men working there? — Yee, 
 there are other men who do not stand it well, but the 
 symptoms are not so marked. 
 
 508. Has this wood been tried on animals in any 
 way, with the view of seeing whether it is poisonous? 
 
 i09. You do not know anything about them per- , „ :..- 
 .ally?-No. 1 No^- 1906. 
 
 — 'From what I have read I think there have been some 
 experiments. 
 
 509 
 son 
 
 510. (Chairman.) One other thing. Is it a. disease 
 that is easy to diagnose, so that you could eay at once 
 this is a case of African boxwood poisoning ? — It would be 
 difficult, I dare say, without knowing that the man 
 worked at the shuttle shop. I should be very suspicious. 
 In this case when the man was very bad the attack 
 looked somewhat like an ordinary attack of spasmodic 
 asthma, caused probably by the inhalation of dust. 
 Yet I had never before seen an attack of asthma cause 
 so much cardiac depression in such a short time. On 
 the other hand, it did not quite conform to the ordinary 
 type of cardiac dyspnoea — there was more difficulty 
 with the expiration than is usual with such attacks. 
 And there was no evident cardiac lesion. The attack 
 seemed to come between an ordinary attack of asthma 
 and one of cardiac asthma. He had more difficulty 
 with the expiration rather than with the inspiration. 
 
 511. Your diagnosis must depend upon the nature 
 of the case and the history of the case and of his 
 occupation ? — And the appearance of the man, running 
 at the eyes and nose, sneezing, and the appearances of 
 cardiac failure, etc. 
 
 512. Do you think if you knew anything about the 
 history of the man, where he had been employed, that 
 you could tell he was suffering from boxwood poison- 
 ing? — ^I think I oould now. 
 
 513. You think you could now? — After seeing this 
 ease. I have never seen anything like it before. 
 
 514. It struck you as something anomalous ? — ^Yes, it 
 was quite anomalous, and did not seem to conform 
 to the ordinary type of anything I had seen before. 
 
 Dr. H. 
 Stewart. 
 
 THIRD DAY. 
 
 Friday, 2nd November 1906. 
 
 PBESENT : 
 
 Mr. HeNBY CtTNTNGHAME, C.B. 
 
 Professor Clieeoed Allbutt, e.e.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettant (Acting Secretary);: 
 
 Mr. A. L. McCuLLT, m.b. , called and examined. 
 
 515. (Chairman.) Have you ever been appointed as 
 medical referee or anything of that kind ? — No. 
 
 516. You are a medical practitioner in the town? — 
 Yes. 
 
 517. Have you seen a number of cases of anilin or 
 of chrome poisoning? — Yes. 
 
 518. Have you been called in on behalf of the 
 employers or the men ? — On behalf of the men them- 
 selves. 
 
 519. You are a workmen's doctor? — Yes 
 
 520. (Dr. Legge.) But you are also appointed by a 
 firm to examine the workmen every two months ? — ^Yes. 
 
 521. (Chairman.) By whom ? — By Read Holliday and 
 Sons. 
 
 522. Do you act for any other firms 1 — No. 
 
 523. How many men do Head Holliday and Sons em- 
 ploy ?— Between 400 and 500 men. 
 
 524. Is that in the nitro-benzine department? — ^Not 
 so many in that department. In the nitro-benzine 
 department not more than ten or twelve. 
 
 525. How long have you been in practice ? — 'I have 
 been here about seven years, and I have had that 
 appointment during that time. 
 
 419 
 
 526. Have you seen some cases of nitro-benzol poison- 
 ing ? — Not £U3uto cases. 
 
 527. How many have you seen 1 — At least 20, taking 
 all degrees into consideration. 
 
 528. Over the seven years ?-— Yes. 
 
 529. Can you give us an idea as to how many opera- 
 tives employed in these processes that twenty is 
 selected from? — It would include the same men on 
 more than one occasion. 
 
 530. Twenty cases in how many men? — From ten or 
 twelve men. 
 
 531. To put it into another way, out of 100 men 
 employed in connection with di-nitro benzine, how 
 many would you say were likely to be sick at 
 one time, have you any idea ? — I have no idea. I could 
 not say. I oould not commit myself to any statement. 
 
 552. I suppose it would not be more than 2 per cent., 
 or would it be 20 per cent. ? — Not 20 per cent. 
 B33. Not 10 per cent. ? — I do not think so. 
 
 532. I suppose it would not be more than 2 per cent., 
 get some conception of what the figures are? — I have 
 never gone into the matter statistically. 
 
 535. (Professor Allbutt.) Perhaps you might, medi- 
 cally speaking, say whether there is any idiosyncrasy 
 
 C 2 
 
 Mr. A. L. 
 McCully, 
 
 M.B. 
 
 2 Nov. 1906. 
 
20 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. L. 
 
 MeCully, 
 
 M.B. 
 
 2 Nov. 1906. 
 
 in the men, whether some never suffer ? — I cannot say 
 at present. 
 
 536. {Chairman.) Would you please give us in 
 popular language what you might term a description of 
 the illness ? — Judging simply from what the men 
 describe when they come to me, or when I go to see 
 them, they are suffering from great languor and 
 prostration, and generally very severe headache. They 
 invariably complain of headache. They tell one first 
 that they are passing little water, and it is very high 
 coloured. 
 
 537. Ha\e you analysed that water ever to find the 
 cause of that colour? — No. 
 
 538. Are there any other symptoms, not those which 
 would depend merely upon what the men told you, but 
 which you could see for yourself? — No, except the 
 lividity. There is a considerable amount of lividity. 
 It is the most striking feature. The lividity is the 
 most striking thing. It arrests one's attention at once. 
 The amount of lividity of the tongue and lips and the 
 inner surfaces of the eyelids. 
 
 539. Is there any trembling of the hands ? — ^I have 
 not noticed a visible tremor. 
 
 540. {Professor Allbutt.) No visible tremor 1 — ^I have 
 not noticed it. 
 
 541. {Chairman.) Have yon noticed nervousness in 
 any form t — Do you mean the men complaining ? 
 
 542. Either the men complaining, or you being able 
 to verify their complaint ; a third person teing able to 
 verify it ? — They have told me that they have felt afraid 
 of falling, but it is not due to nervousness as much as 
 to a sense of giddiness. They feel nervous walking 
 a'bout their work. I think this is from the physical 
 feeling of giddiness. 
 
 543. Have you ever analysed the blood of any of these 
 men 1 — No. 
 
 544. Are there any symptoms to which you would 
 like to allude as characteristic of this poison ? — Yes. 
 General muscular weakness. They cannot grasp your 
 hand. If you try them in the ordinary way they can- 
 not give you anything like a hand grasp, and they 
 •complain of being unable to do ordinary light work in 
 the house. 
 
 545. Have you any knowledge of whether any of 
 these men before they became ill belonged to althletic 
 
 ■ societies ?— No, I have not. 
 
 546. And have ceased to belong to them ? — ^No, I have 
 not. 
 
 547. When they become ill, what is the remedy that 
 you would prescribe as a rule ? — In the way of drugs ? 
 
 548. And also in treatment of any sort including 
 
 ■ drugs ? — They stop work, and I advise them, when able, 
 to keep out in the open air. When a man is able to 
 -walk out to the parks and go on to the top of the tram 
 cars, and to have plenty of light nourishing food, and 
 to keep oS beer, he soon improves. 
 
 549. {Professor Allbutt.) I suppose you advise tliem 
 to keep off alcohol of any kind ? — ^Yes. 
 
 550. {Chairman.) And do you give them any drugs? 
 — As far as drugs go, I usually give them carbonate of 
 
 ammonia, which seems to do tihem as much good as 
 anything. Later on I giv3 them iron when they have 
 got over the sub-acute stage. 
 
 551. Can you give us any idea of tlie time these cases 
 take to cure — severe or light ? — The lighest case, say a 
 
 ■ fortnight. At the end of a fortnight the man ex- 
 presses himself as fit to go back, although he does not 
 always look fit, but he says he is fit to go back, and 
 voluntarily goes back. Other cases I have known to be 
 ofi four or five weeks, and on one occasion a man was 
 off his work six weeks. 
 
 552. Does even a severe case get cured in six weeks 
 as a rule ? — ^Yes, any I have had experience of. 
 
 553. Has any man died? — ^None at Bead HoUiday's 
 in my own experience. 
 
 554. Does it, in your opinion, in cases with which you 
 have been acquainted, leave permanent results upon 
 the man, his heart or any other organ ? — ^I do not think 
 so, beyond a degree of ansemia. They doi not seem to 
 get rid of that altogether. 
 
 555. But if they changed employment it would not 
 be permanent, would it ? — I do not think so, it would 
 improve. 
 
 556. Then by careful diet and regimen for a suffi- 
 
 ciently long time the cases will, according to your 
 acquaintance with the disease, improve ?— Yes. 
 
 557. I suppose you have visited the works and seen 
 the men at work ? — Yes. 
 
 558. Would you say that a number of them were still 
 continuing at work when you wonld rather like tc 
 suspend them if you could ?— Yes, certainly. 
 
 559. Can you give us any general proportion of the 
 number of men— without saying that they must at 
 their life's peril cease — for whom you think it is not a 
 very healthy work ?— A very large proportion of them. 
 I could not give the exact proportion. If you go down 
 and see the men, you would pick out the men employed 
 in the bi-nitro department. Evtry man is cyanosed 
 as compared with outside occupation. They all show 
 the blueness, all of them I have seen — an almost 
 chronic condition. 
 
 560. A chronic unhealthiness ? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 561. Something like the chronic unhealthiness there 
 may be amongst clerks in the city leading a very 
 sedentary life ? — Yes, even when they make no com- 
 plaint of feeling unwell or unable to work, they all 
 present this livid appearance. 
 
 562. Is it not an employment which it would be wise 
 t3 follow for six months, and then change the employ- 
 ment for six months, and then bring the men back ? — 
 That is the very point I have tried to emphasize with 
 the members of the firm, the necessity of having two 
 or three sets of men, and varying them. 
 
 563. Has any objection been found to that ? — I am 
 afraid so. I am afraid it is not put into practice. 
 
 564. You do not perhaps know enough of the organisa- 
 tion of the firms to say whether it could be done or not 1 
 — It should be possible. The objection is this, that 
 the men who are working at it for years know the plant 
 thoroughly, and it would mean training a duplicate set 
 of men. 
 
 565. But tlie work itself is not of such a complicated 
 or difficult character that it takes very long to learn? — 
 I believe the preparatory stages require a good deal 
 of time. 
 
 565. I was just going to go on with that. You think 
 it is a trade which takes some time to learn ? — I believe 
 so, judging from what the men tell me. There is a 
 necessity for great care, they say that a very slight 
 interruption might spoil a whole batch of stuff. 
 
 567. How is that ?— Letting it get over the boiling 
 point. 
 
 568. From the point of view of healthiness, altera- 
 tion of employment would go a long way to mitigate 
 these evils?!— Yes. 
 
 569. Have you lately seen in the works any men 
 whom you would absolutely suspend if you had the 
 power ?— I can only say that it is about 18 months ago 
 since I came to the arrangement that I saw the men 
 every two months, and I had the option to suspend 
 any man. I have not put that option into force. 
 
 570-1. You have not met cases so bad that you felt 
 that it would be really necessary to suspend ?— No, but 
 withm a week of my being there a man has declared 
 himself unfit for work. 
 
 572. {Professor Allbutt.) Did you examine that man ? 
 —I examined that man. I tried his grasp. 
 
 573. Did you think that he was fit for work'— 
 Apparently. 
 
 5'74. You think that his view that he was not fit for 
 work was not a correct one ?— You mean on comin" up 
 the second time ? 
 
 575. The first time?— I have seen them there and 
 have not suspended them. The man referred to was 
 apparently all right. You must be guided by your own 
 impression. You cannot judge from the cyanosis. They 
 have come up afterwards and declared themselves so 
 bad with headache that they could not go on— and 
 shortness of breath. 
 
 Ti^T^'^^"^® ^^® ''^^^^ y°^ would have suspended?— 
 If I had seen them in that condition. You do not 
 catch oases at all. A man might be practically well 
 when you do see him ; and yet be quite unfit for work 
 m a few days afterwards. 
 
 577. Where the symptoms are subjective it would 
 be more difficult ?— It would be very difficult. 
 
 578. Very difficult to say whether a man was pre- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 21 
 
 '4;endmg7 — There axe really no physical signs to guide 
 ■none beyond the cyanosis. 
 
 579. The colour of the urine, it is so invariable as to 
 provide a sure index? — Well, the men tell you that it 
 is always dark with them more or less. 
 
 580. Would nof it be worth while following that up, 
 'because if you got some test of that, unless a man took 
 
 a drug to make his urine dark you would probaibly 
 ■detect any imposture ; it would be impossible to make 
 -a pretence with such a test as that ? — Oh, quite so ; 
 ■and, of course, it is impossible to simulate the lividity. 
 lit is impossible, taking lividity as a criterion, it is im- 
 3)ossible to simulate it. 
 
 581. No form of drink you know of, or opium taking, 
 '-would produce it ? — No. 
 
 582. Would you call this a dangerous occupation ? — ■ 
 I should call it a dangerous occupation, I think. I 
 
 Twould not like to work at it myself. 
 
 583. Is the pay of these men up to the average of 
 those employed at other works, or is it higher or lower? 
 
 — I believe it is higher than the average, but I cannot 
 vspeak definitely. 
 
 584. What do you give as a remedy to a man who is 
 ■overpowered by nitric acid fumes ? Is there any 
 •general remedy used? — I do not know of any. I have 
 snot had any of these cases really. 
 
 585. Is there any preventive drug that could be used 
 "in di-nitro-benzine factories, like certain drugp that 
 are used in the phosphorus factories, for instance ? 
 What are they — perm^anganates — which are used in the 
 
 a)hosphoTUS factories ? Is there any such antidote ? — I 
 do not know of any. 
 
 586. Some of the ammonium carbonate would be of 
 -Jio US3 ? — I do not think so. 
 
 587-8. In the works you can suggest nothing except 
 ^plenty of fresh air ? — I suppose that really is the best. 
 Tt is the only thing that neutralises it. 
 
 589. Have you been in one of the mixing chambers, 
 like the one we saw at Bradford, that we are going to 
 :rsee ? They mix anilin oil with acids. Are you ac- 
 quainted with the process? — Very, very slightly. I 
 
 "iave not gone into the process at all. 
 
 590. (Dr. Leqge.) You have mentioned that there was 
 Kmuscular weakness of the grasp. Have you noticed 
 -any definite paralysis in the action of the muscles of 
 ■the hand? — No, I have not. 
 
 591. There is no grooving or wasting? — ^I have not 
 ^noticed any. 
 
 592. Do they ever complain of weakness of sight? — 
 "No, they have not done to me. 
 
 593. Have you heard of cases in Huddersfield where 
 "there has been a loss of sight? — ^No, I have not. 
 
 Mr. A. L. 
 
 McCnlly, 
 
 594. Seeing these men every two months, have you 
 fixed upon any particular department "vhich you think 
 more injurious than another — one particular stage in 
 
 the manufacture? — I cannot say that I have. The 
 
 men on the stills seem to suffer as much as the men 2 Nov. 1006. 
 handling the later products. 
 
 595. On these stiUs it has not reached the stage of 
 di-nitro-benzol, it is still in the condition of nitro- 
 benssol, and you consider therefore that nitro-benzol 
 also afiects ? — The men certainly show signs. The men 
 certainly suffer. The foreman of the shed is repeatedly 
 under my care. 
 
 596- And therefore in defining this class of poison- 
 ing for the purpose of compensation it would be neces- 
 sary to give it a wider dcisignation than di-nitro- 
 benzine — nitro derivatives of benzine? — I think that 
 would be sufficient. I do not know anything of the 
 chemistry of that. I know these men on the stills com- 
 plain repeatedly. 
 
 597. There was nothing but plenty of fresh air which 
 modified this? — That has been my experience. 
 
 598. Is it not a fact that the men working on these 
 stills are working in the open air ? — To a certain extent 
 they are, but the ventilation is anything but efficient. 
 In a trade like this with a foggy, muggy, morning they 
 are, strictly speaking, in the open air, but they might 
 as well be in a closed area. 
 
 599. You think these fumes should be taken right 
 away from them ? — They always complain most in 
 calm stUl weather. A breezy day is what they like. 
 
 600. Have you satisfied yourself from the examina- 
 tion of these men that the taking of aloohol predis- 
 poses them ? — I have not. I should not say that. One 
 man, this foreman, is practically a teetotaler, and he 
 seems to suffer as much as the men who do drink. 
 
 601. Do you think that there is a class of men sus- 
 ceptible from, say, lack of nourishment, or any other 
 cause? — I should think possibly so. I could not speak 
 from experience. 
 
 602. You have not had anything to suggest suscepti- 
 bility to poison more in one case that another ? — No. 
 
 603-4. Have you come across dust as a cause ? — Yes, 
 there is dust from the breaking up of the solid di-nitro. 
 
 605. There are other departments in which dyes are 
 prepared, magenta dyes and all manner of anilin dyes. 
 Have you experience of injury to health arising from 
 them ?— I have not. None that could be said to be due 
 to it. 
 
 606. If there were any serious cases you would have 
 been called in? — I see the majority of the men, not 
 all of them. 
 
 Mr. Peter MacGeegoe, l.e.o.p., f.e.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 507. {Chairman.) You are a Fellow of the Eoyal 
 ^College of Surgeons, and you carry on a private prao- 
 iiice here ? — ^I do. 
 
 608. And do you hold any appointment? — I am a 
 '.Surgeon of the Infirmary. 
 
 609. And do you attend any of the men on behalf 
 ■■-of the employers? — No, but I am on ofifioial referee 
 sunder the Workmen's Compensation Act of 1897. 
 
 610. Have you had a certain number of cases as 
 -official referee? — Never had one of any kind, sort, o» 
 •condition, during the whole tenure of my office. 
 
 611-2. It is a very barren appointment, then? — I 
 'have never had a copper. 
 
 613. Have you heard the evidence Dr. McOully has 
 •given? — ^I have just come in at the concluding portion 
 ■of it. 
 
 614. During the last six or seven years you have seen 
 •a considerable number of di-nitro-benzol poisoning 
 -cases, or shall I say nitro-benzine poisoning? — ^Yes. 
 
 615. {Professor Allbuti.) That is at the Infirmary ? — 
 Uost I have seen privately, and sent them into the 
 hospital afterwards. 
 
 615. (Chairman.) Are you in a position to say that 
 the words nitro-benzino have been used advisedly as 
 ■including both nitro-benzol and di-nitrO'-benzol ? I 
 -suppose that is something like carbonate and bi-car- 
 bonate of soda ? — Practically. 
 
 617. The men speak of it as bi-nitro. 
 
 618. (Dr. Legge.) That would include also di-nitro- 
 toluol? 
 
 619. (Chairman.) You have also done (m& post 
 mortem in a case?— Yes, that is Hamilton's case. 
 
 620. What are your views of the symptoms of this 
 poisoning ? — I will just tell you of a recent case I had, 
 and that explains all the others. 
 
 621. That is a representative case?— A representa- 
 tive case — I sent him to the Infirmary on the 1st of 
 September. He was a powerful young Irishman. 
 
 622. What was his name ? — A. He is well. now. He 
 is not in the hospital now. He is a typical case. He 
 got well again, and he 'Oould 'be seen if necessary now. 
 There is another case you can see to-day. 
 
 623. Will you please describe hig symptoms? — 
 Irish, in perfect health, about 32 years of age, 
 worked at Leitch's for one week — and the way in 
 which I met him — I was riding in the tram going 
 to the Infirmary on a Saturday afternoon, about 
 5 o'clock. On my way tO' the Infirmary, and as I passed 
 the end of King Street I saw two men in conversation — 
 a tall one and a small one — and just as I passed I saw 
 the man full-faced — di-nitro poisoning. When I got 
 to the next stO'pping place I got out and walked back, 
 met this man walking alone. I said "You work at 
 Leitch's or HoUiday's"? He said "I work at Leitch's." 
 I said " Are you quite well " ? Ha said " I am very 
 
 Mr. P. 
 MacCregor, 
 
 L.E.C.P., 
 
 f.t:.c.s. 
 
22 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. P. 
 MacGregor, 
 L.R C.P., 
 F.R.C.S. 
 
 ill. I have been asking that inaji where I could get 
 some Indian brandy." So I said "What is the 
 matter?" H© said "I cannot see very well ;" and he 
 walked — he staggered. He was quite sober — had 
 nothing to drink and staggered a little, but had the 
 2 Nov. 1906. characteristic facial appearance, and had a most fright- 
 ful headache. It was the appearance which attracted 
 my attention, and th© appearano© when I have seen 
 them — I have never seen them immediately they have 
 been poisoned — -I have seen them within an hour come 
 straight to my surgery — their lips are a dead leaden 
 colour, and the mucous membrane is a very dull leaden 
 colour, the face is a sort of green yellow, a sort of 
 cachetic looking, they are not blue in the face, but 
 pale, and the conjunctival mucous membrane ansemic, 
 some blueness of the nails, but not very pronounced. 
 The pulse is slow, and the arterial tension is low. 
 The urine is high coloured, something like what would 
 liappen in obstructed jaundice. All that we do is, 
 we put them to bed, give them milk and soda.. We 
 afterwards give them iron and airsenic, but the anaemia 
 persists for a long time. There is evidence of aneemia 
 afterwards, so that I am quite sure it is something 
 which destroys, the blood corpuscles. I have followed 
 them five o.r six w<wks ; he ivas very ill lor six week-? 
 afterwards — -protound anwmia. The paleness goes ofl 
 in the course of a week or ten days — the curious dull 
 'eaden paleness. Once you have seen a case you could 
 lever mistake it, and then this profound ansemia 
 follows it, and muscular weakness. This man had 
 been working for a week. 
 
 624. (Chairman.) Then the recovery I suppose is due 
 to the gradual growth again of the blood corpuscles, I 
 take it ?— Yes. 
 
 625. So that this poisoning is accompanied by a 
 disturbance in certain directions, and is very charac- 
 teristic ? — ^Yes. 
 
 626. According to this view it really is impossible 
 for a man to. simulate this disease ? — Absolutely impos- 
 sible. There can be no malingeiing in a case &uch as 
 I saw from the car in September. I ha.ve seen another 
 man, B., a mill operative, and he staggered like a 
 drunken man, and he is a powerful man, and the 
 moment you saw them . 
 
 627. The sta-ggering a olever person might simulate? 
 — The staggering is not much. 
 
 628. But the high colour of the urine, the other 
 symptoms you mentioned would be impossible to simu- 
 late? — The facial expression and the lips it is aibso- 
 lutely impossible, except by nitro poisoning — it is im- 
 possible. 
 
 629. There is no drug you know of, alcohol or other- 
 wise? — No drug, and he could not stain himself, be- 
 cause the lips have a very deep leaden colour, and 
 through it you see the ansemic gum, and the mucous 
 membrane is very anaemic. There is nothing which can 
 be simulated. I have seen them within the hour. 
 
 630. I am going to ask you about the post-mortem — 
 when the man has had treatment under skilful hands, 
 he generally recovers if he is not very bad ? — Yes. 
 
 631. And Dr. MoCully told us — do you agree that in 
 most cases, in all cases, after a sufficient length of 
 proper treatment a man was not the worse ? — There is 
 no organic lesion left behind. 
 
 632. (Professor Allbutt.) The heart is not affected? — 
 The heart is not affected. The ansemia is due to. the 
 destruction of the blood corpuscles. 
 
 633. (Chairman.) Tlie great point is that a skilful 
 practitioner can certainly diagnose this. A man — 
 not necessarily skilful — if a man has once seen a case, 
 the veriest tyro in the profession can tell it. There 
 is nothing else like it in medicine? — ^No. 
 
 634. And there is no other poison which produces 
 these peculiar effects ? — None. The only poison that 
 produces anything like it is anti-febrin. 
 
 635. (Dr. Zegge.) That is also a nitro derivative of 
 benzine ? — The only condition that I know that produces 
 something like the facial appearance is anti-febrin, but 
 there is a difference, and I will tell you the difference. 
 In anti-febrin there is no cachectic appearance, and 
 there is a general blueness of the whole complexion. 
 The face is altogether blue. The cheeks are blue, 
 cyanosed as you have in congenital heart affection. In 
 anti-febrin you have first of all blueness, general blue- 
 ness. You have not the peculiar condition of the urine, 
 and you have not the peculiar pallor of the face, a 
 pa'lor that is sallow, a cachectic pallor that is charac- 
 teiistic, as the blueness of the lips — you have none of 
 
 these things, no pallor, and the patient feels quite welE 
 when you give him anti-febrin in doses to cause evea 
 poisoning symptoms. There is an old gentleman who. 
 used to experiment on himself. 
 
 636. (Professor Allbutt.) The cyanosis due to anti_ 
 febrin is distinct from that due to the nitro compounds, 
 the benzine compounds, totally different in nature and 
 in symptoms? — Yes. 
 
 637. (Chairman.) I think that finishes the general! 
 evidence of this poisoning ? —It is absolutely character- 
 istic. 
 
 638. You made a post-mortem. Have you anything 
 to say with regard to what you found ? — I fcfond a man 
 of 50, of splendid physique, all his organs absolutely 
 healthy, the blood was abnormally dark and fluid in 
 both chambers of the heart and in all the large vessels. 
 
 639. Did he die in ho,?pital ? — No. He died in about- 
 48 hours from heart failure. 
 
 640. How is it known that this heart failure was due- 
 to this poisoning instead of some other cause .? — The- 
 poisoning was diagnosed during life. H« came hoiEB 
 from the works with characteristic symptoms of di-nitro> 
 poisoning, and he was attended by a competent medical' 
 man. 
 
 641. And therefore you would be able to say for cer- 
 tain that that heart failure was due to this poisoning: 
 and not some other cause ? — Due to nothing else. 
 
 642. (Professor Allbutt.) The fibre of the heart wa* 
 normal ? — Yes. A man of fine physique, all his organs- 
 perfectly healthy — an abstemious, temperate man of 
 splendid physique. 
 
 643. Was he exposed in any special way? — I have- 
 never been inside the works, so I was never in a position" 
 to speak. Men have told me that in cleaning out the: 
 " *go " — that is their expression, a sort of vat — it has- 
 always come on. 
 
 644. (Chairman.) In this case, in the post-mortem- 
 case, was the condition of the blood characteristic — was? 
 it different from what you would expect in a man who 
 died of heart failure.? — It was the only post-mortem,, 
 but it was different from any other post-mortem. 
 
 645. The man who died of heart failure in the- 
 ordinary way would not have his blood in this condi- 
 tion ? — No. 
 
 646. There was nothing in the urine still in the man P 
 — That I am afraid we did not examine. 
 
 647. Is there anything else you deeire to add witb 
 regard to that post-mortem case ? — Nothing. 
 
 648. But cases have been rare — increasinslv freauen*- 
 I believe, though ?— Yes. ^ ^H'^^a.^ 
 
 649. Since the commencement of the Boer WarP 
 
 Since that time. 
 
 650. Why— can you give any reason ?— I cannot give 
 you any reason at all. I have always seen cases at 
 intervals for the last 15 or 16 years. There are two 
 works, the large works I have very rarely seen cases 
 from. Read Holliday's, I have seen one or two, but 
 very rarely. They have a club of their own, and tliej- 
 have a competent medical man. I think Dr. McCully 
 sees all their cases. We rarely have them at the in- 
 firmary. 
 
 651. Since the period of the commencement of the- 
 Boer War ?— I do not think there is any connection. 
 Five or six years. 
 
 652. Has there been any new process of makinj aniliw 
 brought in ?— No, I do not think there is. 
 
 653. Perhaps we can find that afterwards ? There i» 
 
 a case in the hospital to-day. I have had four or five 
 cases this summer, and they all came from Leitch's. 
 
 654. They generally occur in a short period after the 
 man commences the employment ?— That has been so in 
 the cases I nave seen. 
 
 655. Does that point to idiosyncrasy of individuals 
 rather that some men stand it and others do not P— I 
 think it rather points to the fact that the men wha 
 have been there some time get more careful. 
 
 656. (Professor Allbutt.) They do not establish a 
 tolerance?— I think the man who is very ill to-day ha» 
 been working since April. 
 
 657. (Chairman.) From two weeks to six weeks was 
 the usual period of treatment to get a man right ?— Yes 
 up to six weeks. A good deal depends upon the men! 
 but I a,m quite sure that they are not quite well under 
 SIX weeks. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 23 
 
 658. n>o joa sve them carbonate of ammonium ? — I 
 
 g)ut them to- bed, giye tkem nothing — put them to bed. 
 
 -■and give them plenty of milk. If I did actually treat, 1 
 
 tBhould treat with oxygen. H I saw a bad case I 
 
 should treat with oxygen and strychnine, hypodermic 
 
 -administrations of ■ strychnine. In the larger works 
 
 cases occur, but they are rarer than in the small works. 
 
 I attribute that to better ventilation, better manage- 
 
 sment, and other causes. The men there are a better 
 
 .stamp of men, and they have a good club and a doctor 
 
 who looks after them. In the smaller works the men 
 
 belong to casual labour, and I do not think they are as 
 
 well looked after for this reason. If at Bead Holli- 
 
 day's he is ill, the club has to pay; in these other 
 
 cases the employer denies all liability, and will not give 
 
 A penny. 
 
 659. Do you think the matter is sufficiently grave to 
 warrant insistence on a periodic examination of these 
 nie^i f — I do not think h would make any difference, 
 because the symptoms come on quite suddenly. What 
 I should like to suggest is that surprise visits should be 
 jnade, that the precautions which are recommended are 
 ■carried out efficiently. 
 
 660. You would like a strengthening in the rigidity 
 .of these recommendations, the recommendations turned 
 into orders ? — That is my opinion. It ought to be com- 
 jjmlsory, compulsory as the whole of the Factory Acts 
 .ane as to fencing machinery, because it is more dan- 
 .^gerous than unfenced machinery. 
 
 661. What precautions would you recommend the 
 workers to take? — ^I think that the men ought to bo 
 icompelled to wear rubber boots, such as sailors wear, 
 .and gloves. I would have them made of rubber 
 because rubber is a non-conductor of the fumes. 
 
 662. {Professor Allbutt.) Why, for what end? — It is 
 absorbed by the skin. People have been poisoned by 
 ■anilin dye from the dye from the boots. 
 
 663. (Chairman.) And your impression is that they 
 -absorb it through the skin ? — ^Yes. 
 
 664. You are clear that, like anilin, nitro-benzines 
 are absorbed through the skin ? — Quite confident of 
 tihat. 
 
 665. If a man dipped his hands constantly in and 
 iept them wet with this material, it would go right 
 through the skin and produce general symptoms? — I 
 Jiave not the slightest doubt. 
 
 666. Would the wearing of indiarubber gloves con- 
 .'Stantly injure the health ? — ^Not if they are open at the 
 
 lop. Large gauntlets and boots coming over the knee 
 — ^sailors wear them, I have worn them myself for 
 months. 
 
 667. Yes, they have been impregnated with grease 
 «iid dubbing ? — I think the rubber would be better than 
 
 " the leather, because it is a better non-conductor. 
 
 668. The men object to use these rubber gloves ; that 
 '3s a very stupid thing ? — Yes. 
 
 669. Just as the stonemiasons object to wear masks? 
 —Yes. 
 
 670. Is there any other point that we have not asked 
 yoa on with regard to this nitro-benzol poisoning? — 
 1. do not think so. 
 
 671. I think I have dealt with all the points referred 
 to in your pricis of evidence? — Yes. I think I ought 
 "to add that I 'have communicated with the inspector 
 of factories, and have felt that something ought to be 
 done, and the only way that anything can be done is 
 l)y compulsion. 
 
 672. (Professor Allbutt.) Especially in the way of 
 "ventilation and boots ? — ^And everything that experience 
 
 and science tells us is for the safety of the workmen, 
 just as in factories you compel the fencing so far as it 
 ■can be done. How far that is feasible and possible I 
 
 do not know. 
 
 673. I s.bould like to point out to you that you have 
 introduced a new point in the absorption of the poison 
 through the skin. I do not think that we heard any- 
 thing about that at Bradford. 
 
 (Chairman.) Yes, I think so. The workmen were 
 told to wash it oflf, because it would bS absorbed. 
 
 674. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you think the fumes play 
 «ny part ? — They are absorbed both through the breath 
 «md the skin ; worse through the skin than any other 
 form. If you give a mercurial bath it is most pene- 
 trating. 
 
 675. A man's boots and stockings get soaked? — ^A 
 man's clothing generally with the fumes, and then he 
 absorbs it by a process of inhalation. It is volatile, 
 and supposing his clothes are saturated, he at the same 
 time inspires through the respiratory organs. 
 
 676. It is labsorption from both surfaces? — Take 
 iodine ; if you apply iodine to the skin it is most 
 difficult to get rid of. 
 
 677. Are you quite sure that the odours come under 
 the same category as the material drug, the material 
 poison? — It is absorbed through the skin, that I am 
 quite sure of. 
 
 678-9. (Chairman.) There is here in this district a 
 certain amount of clearly preventable di-nitro-benzol 
 poisoning going on? — That is my opinion. 
 
 680. The conclusions we can easily draw from that 
 general opinion ? — ^Yes. 
 
 681. (Dr. Legge.) Your remarks as to persons getting 
 tolerant to the effect of nitro derivations ©f benzine 
 in a factory is said without knowledge of the different 
 processes that go on there, and without knowledge of 
 the interior of the factory 1—1 have no knowledge what- 
 ever. 
 
 682. Some m.en do remain at the work year after 
 year without illness, and, again, you get men who are 
 affected in a week, as you said. That is said without 
 knowledge? — ^No inside knowledge. 
 
 683. (Chairman.) There is a distinct impression that 
 there is an idiosyncrasy. You have no opinion to offer 
 one way or another? — ^Most of the men_I have seen 
 have been men who have been employee a week, or 
 about a week, 
 
 684. That is quite consistent with the idiosyncrasy 
 theory? — Yes — typhoid fever and everything, I am 
 quite sure that the question of temperance has nothing 
 to do with it, that alcohol has no bearing. Some of 
 the men I have seen have been perfectly temperate, 
 healthy men. 
 
 '685. (Dr. Legge.) If you found that those men who 
 were alcoholic suffered more than the others it would 
 upset ■ ? — If a man is obviously alcoholic his resist- 
 ing power is very much less, but on a man who, like 
 myself, is neither drunkard nor teetotaler, it has no 
 effect. He is just as safe as a teetotaller or as unsafe. 
 
 686. Why do you give milk in these cases ? I have 
 never heard of a rational explanation ? — I do 
 not think I can give you one. The only reason 
 I give milk is I want to give them food, and one that 
 is most easily absorbed and least irritating, because 
 I always thought the probabilities were that the in- 
 testinal mucous membrane would be in an exactly 
 similar condition to that of the mouth and nostrils and 
 lips. 
 
 687. You give it as something soothing to the 
 mucous membrane, and nourishing? — ^Yes. 
 
 688. And not as an antidote? — No, the only anti- 
 dote I should give in a bad case would be oxygen, be- 
 cause I conclude that the oxygen carrying power of the 
 blood corpuscles is destroyed. The nitro-benzol 
 poisoning, of which I have been speaking, I should 
 regard as a more dangerous class of poisoning than the 
 poisoning of the amido compounds of benzol. 
 
 639. (Chairman.) You have had, I think, some ex- 
 perience of men who have ibeen rendered ill in the 
 occupation of stone dressing work? — I have had a 
 good deal. 
 
 690. What are the characteristic symptoms of the 
 men ill with that? — Well, usually, you have a his- 
 tory of his occupation to begin with, then you have a 
 history of bronchitis extending over a long series of 
 years. Them when you come to examine him 
 you find both lungs practically alike — ^the one is not in 
 a more advanced stage than the other. In the early 
 stages you simply find the symptoms are bronchitis 
 with tendency to bronchiecstasis. There is no rise of 
 temperature in the early symptoms, and the man does 
 not appear to be very ill, he simply complains of a 
 cough. 
 
 691. (Professor Allbutt.) Is the bodily temperature 
 affected ? — There is no rise of temperature. He is fol- 
 lowing his . occupation, and there is no rise of tempera- 
 ture. In tubercle you always have one lung in a 
 more advanced stage than the other. In chronic 
 tubercular cases you have always definite consolidation 
 at some portion, usually the apex, whereas in fibroais 
 
 Mr. P. 
 MacQregor, 
 
 L.R.C.P., 
 F.E.C.S. 
 
 2 Nov. 1906. 
 
24 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. P. 
 
 MacGrtgor, 
 L.U.C.P., 
 F.R C.S. 
 
 2 Nov. 1906. 
 
 of the lungs due to stone dressing the base is alwaye 
 most affected. 
 
 692. (Professor Allhvtt.) And definitely periodic?- 
 More pronounced the first thing in the morning. 
 
 693. (Chairman.) And that distinguishes it from pul- 
 monary consumption? — In early tubercle you have a 
 short cough with very scanty expectoration, and an 
 evening rise of temperature. In the mechanical con- 
 sumption due to stone you have in the early stages a 
 rather aggressive cough, a big cough. You have a large 
 amount of frothy expectoration, and you have no tem- 
 perature in the evening or at any other time. 
 
 694. (Dr. Legge.) Would you like to add to this any 
 statement with regard to hsemoptysis and night 
 sweats ? — In tubercle you frequently have some spitting 
 of blood in the early stages. You have night sweats, 
 and in the mechanical consumption you have neither. 
 
 695. (Chairman.) Is there any difference in the two 
 beyond in the stuff that is coughed up — the expectora- 
 tion of the material ? — ^You can get the tubercle bacillus 
 in the one and not in the other. 
 
 696. That would be to me almost conclusive ? 
 
 697. (Professor Allbuit.) It is very apt to get en- 
 grafted ? — There is a point of least resistance, and you 
 are very apt to get it later on. 
 
 698. (Professor Allhutt.) The existence of a damaged 
 area is most important. 
 
 699. (Chairman.) In some: stages, by a microscope, 
 /he difference between mechanical phthisis and the 
 tubercular phthisis can be established clearly apart 
 altogether from clinical matters. There is an abso- 
 lute test? — ^Yes, there is an absolute test. 
 
 700. In a post-mortem examination of a man who has 
 died from one or the other are there characteristic 
 
 differences? — There are. Biat you; mrghi easily get: 
 into difficulties if the case were a. chronic one of. 
 tubercle superimplanted on to. case of stoneworker's-. 
 phthisis, because you would get ulceration of both, 
 from the action of the pus. I think I could tell if I. 
 had two lungs on the table, one of a case of death from, 
 tubercle phthisis and the other from mechanicaL 
 phthisis. I think I could distinguish them. 
 
 701. (Professor Allbutt.) Two pairs of lungs I think; 
 there ought to be ? — ^Yes. 
 
 702-3. In pulmonary disease due to steel dust, imdes- 
 the microscope that is discoverable? — ^Yes. 
 
 704. Is that the case in stone ? — No, it is not always.. 
 
 705. (Chairman.) You do not happen to be able to. 
 answer with regard to quartz dust ? — No, I do not. 
 
 706. One would think quartz was difficult to deall 
 with? — They have ganister works near Sheffield.. 
 There is also in that town the steiel grinders' phthisis.. 
 Here I have had no experience of the diseases. 
 
 707. With regard to steel dust, I think that gets em- 
 bedded in the tissue and is very difficult to eradicate.. 
 The stone dust even of the harder qualities, and possibly/ 
 evau when amounting to sandstone, gets washed away ?■■ 
 ■ — Yes, it gets washed away by the copious expectora- 
 tion to a greater extent. 
 
 708. That at least is the w\y T would account for the 
 apparent fact that you do not see at post-mortems 
 more stone grit in the lungs? — Yes. 
 
 709. (Professor Allhutt.) That means that they are-, 
 more curable ? — More curable. I think they are quite; 
 curable it you get them sufficiently early. 
 
 710. (Chairman.) And probably more curable than the- 
 st,«il ? — Yes. 
 
 Mr. J. L. Paeke, m.d., called and examined, at the works of John W. Leitoh and Co. 
 
 Mr J. L. 
 Parke, M.r. 
 
 711. (Chairman.) We are desirous of obtaining from 
 you some general evidence as to the effect upon the 
 men here of working in di-nitro-benzol. How long 
 have you been in this district. Dr. Parke ? — 22 years. 
 
 712. How long have you been certifying surgeon? — 
 About 12 years. 
 
 713. Have you seen cases of poisoning by either 
 " nitro-benzul " or " di-nitro-benzol " ? — Yes, many 
 cases. 
 
 714. You inspect the men here every now and then ? — 
 Every fortnight. 
 
 715. That is due to the employers, who have asked 
 you to do that? — ^Yes. 
 
 716. That is not a statutory duty ? — ^No. 
 
 717. It is merely what they have asked you to under- 
 take ?— Yes. 
 
 718. And do you record in a book the result of your 
 obse~.-ations from time to tim' < — Yes. 
 
 719. Would you please describe to us the symptoms 
 that you would expect to find in a case of "nitro- 
 zenzol" poisoning? — The principal symptoms are the 
 pallor of the fac«. 
 
 720. A pallor that is distinguishable from other sorts 
 of pallor ? — Yes ; I was going to say rather of a yellowish 
 cast. 
 
 721. Is the pallor so specific as to enable you to say 
 definitely, if you saw a man affected with it, and knew 
 that he had been in contact with " nitro-benzol," 
 "That man is suffering from 'nitro-benzol' poison- 
 ing " ?— Yes. 
 
 722. If the pallor had been due to drunken habits 
 you would be able to distinguish that kind of pallor 
 from a paUor due to "nitro-benzol" poisoning"?^ 
 Yes. 
 
 723. What is the other symptom ?— The lips are vei^ 
 livid. 
 
 724. Is that again rather characteristic? — ^Yes. 
 
 725. What else do you find ? — There is nothing per- 
 ceptible beyond. 
 
 726. You mean, I suppose, nothing perceptible to the 
 eye. Do the men complain of headache? — ^There is 
 one thing common, there is a slight yellowuess. 
 
 727. A jaunt^icy look about the whites of the eyes ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 728. Now, I will take a series of symptoms for the' 
 truth of which you have to depend upon what the meiu 
 say — is there headache complained of ? — Yes. 
 
 729. Do they complain of a gassy feeling in the head f 
 — Yes. 
 
 730-1. And dizziness? — ^Yes. 
 
 732. Have you noticed a tremor of the hand, and 
 nervous failing too ? — ^Yes. 
 
 733. That is complained of? — I always examine the- 
 men every fortnight. 
 
 734. Ifi not that a thing that a man can simulate ? 
 
 Yea. 
 
 735. But he could not deceive you from the lips an<i 
 the face?— No. 
 
 736. It is said that the urine becomes darker in tbe- 
 case of men suffering from nitro-benzol poisoning — 
 have you had an opportunity of observing that? — I 
 hav^ V-Ct. 
 
 737. I suppose that arises from the fact that you havd 
 not treated them clinically ? — Most of them reside away 
 from here, and in the acute cases I do not see them. 
 
 738. The urine is a thing that the doctor attending; 
 them would know better about than you ? — I have never 
 had a case in hand, 
 
 739. You feel clear that a man who is well instructed 
 could never well mistake a case of nitro-benzol poison- 
 ing ? — No, it is very clearly marked. 
 
 740. What are the cures? — I have generally advised 
 them to stop away from their work, and I have usually- 
 given them purgatives acting on the liver. 
 
 741. On the liver 7 
 
 742. (Professor Allbutt.) Is constipation a feature?^ 
 Tea. 
 
 743. (Chairman.) You have had men rather seriously 
 affected with it ? — ^No, I have not had them in the very 
 acute cases. 
 
 744. You have not tried oxygen in any case? — No. 
 
 745. Might I suppose you have not had cases bad 
 enough for that ? — I ha.ve not. 
 
 746. And beyond that you have not given them any 
 special medicine, have you ? — No. I have tried iodide 
 of potash. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDIJSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 25 
 
 747. But you would recommend nourisliment, milk 
 «r things of that eort ? — Yes. 
 
 748. And abstinence from alcohol while they are 
 getting well P — ^Yes. 
 
 749. Now in yqjir opinion might not a good deal of 
 *his poisoning be stopped if greater care were taken? 
 —Yes. 
 
 750. We have had evidence from most people that a 
 good deal of this is really preventable ?— That is my 
 impression. 
 
 751. What are the means that you would suggest to 
 prevent it, speaking as generally as you can ? — Well, I 
 thought it would be a very good thing if the men had 
 ±0 wear respiratocg. 
 
 752. The only thing about that is that a respirator- 
 one of these aluminium and cottom respirators — -is 
 rather awkward for a man to wear, especially in 
 •jBummer ? There is that against it ? — Yes. 
 
 753. Another form of respirator would possible be 
 •enough for this trade, and that is a cloth tied round ' 
 the face and coming up close under the eyes?^ — That 
 •would be quite sufficient. 
 
 754. That would be quite sufficient. That woTild 
 keep the crystals, the powder crystals, from getting on 
 to the face, and any acids ? — Yes. 
 
 755. But it would not stop fumes, of course ? — No. 
 
 756. Is there anything else you would suggest ? — I 
 •think they ought to wear very good boots. 
 
 757. That arises from the fact that this poison is 
 «1bsorbed ? — It is absorbed by the skin from the outside. 
 
 758. You have no doubt ? — Not the slightest. 
 
 759. And that is generally recognised to be the fact? 
 No good medical man would dream of disputing that 
 you can absorb " di-nitro-benzol " through the skin 
 from the outside? — ^I should think not. 
 
 760. And you would like to see them wear boots with 
 thick wooden soles, and a sort of leather upper 1 — ^Yes. 
 
 761. The men use boots here — ^wooden soles with 
 leather uppers ? — ^Yes. 
 
 762. Now as to gloves. Would you say anything with 
 regard to that : gloves are very useful, but yet the men 
 object to wear them ? — They will object to wear the 
 boots, too. 
 
 763. Why should they object to wear the boots ? — 
 I do not know, but they do not bother about wearing 
 them. 
 
 764. And I suppose one might partly say that when 
 they are poisoned it is in some respect due to their not 
 having a very good stamina to start with ? — Yes, they 
 sometimes eat the stuff. 
 
 765. They eat it?— They take and eat their food 
 ■straight away with their hands covered with this stuff. 
 
 766. {Professor Allbuti.) They eat their food off the 
 barrel ?— Yes. They eat their food without washing 
 their hands. They eat their food while at work, with- 
 out washing their hands. 
 
 767. Then yO'U would bo rather .glad to see a rule 
 absolutely to forbid them to eat their food, in the place 
 where they are working with " nitro-benzol " ? — Yes. 
 
 768. And would it not be possible to put up a shed or 
 some place where these men could have their meals ? 
 
 (Mr. Leitch.) We have a dining room. 
 
 (Chairman.) In this factory there is a separate 
 dining-room, and yet the men do not eat their food in 
 it?— Yes, ibut they do not wash their hands 'before 
 «ating. 
 
 769. And that you consider indispensable ; and there 
 are basins here, too ?— Yes, everything is provided for 
 them. ^ , ;; 
 
 770. Is there no precaution — no other precaution you 
 think might be taken by the men ? — The men who have 
 ■worked in the cotton factories cannot stand this work. 
 I do not know why it is — ^whether their skins are more 
 susceptible — they cannot work a day in it. 
 
 771. Ar© the cotton factories hot and humid factories? 
 — I expect so. They are humid and hot. 
 
 772. And is it humidity and heat that has to do with 
 Tendering the skin in a state susceptible to the poison ? 
 — ^We have occasionally had one or two men who stated 
 that they have been in: a cotton factory, and I have 
 
 419 
 
 noticed that they could not stand the work. I would Mr. J. L. 
 not pass a man who I knew had been in a cotton factory. Parke, m.d. 
 
 773. (Professor Allbutt.) What other industries are 2 Nov. 1906, 
 
 there 'besides cotton and chemical ?> — The woollen manu- 
 
 factures. 
 
 774. Would a man from the woollen manufacture be 
 less liable ? — 'I have not noticed a case. 
 
 775. (Chairman.) Now, are there any precautions 
 which should be taken by the employers in the con- 
 struction of the apparatus. I will put that to you one 
 after the other — greater ventilation? — No. I think 
 there is everything here in that respect. 
 
 776. In the way of ventilation ? — ^Yes. 
 
 777. At all events, one thing is quite plain, is it not, 
 without passing an opinion on any particular works — 
 thorough ventilation is a great improvement in this 
 trade? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 778. Then do you think it would be a good thing to 
 have a periodical medical inspection of the men? 
 Would it be fair to require it to be don© in all firms 
 in the country ; desirable in the interests of the men? 
 — It is very desirable. 
 
 779. You consider a regular medical inspection to be 
 a good thing ? — We have stopped a lot of it. 
 
 780. Would you consider it right that it shoiild be 
 made a rule that a man who felt ill should be obliged 
 to report it to you or the management ? — Yes. 
 
 781. That rule, does it not obtain here ? — I have 
 to doi that here every week. 
 
 782. Would it aid you if they had to obey it, and it 
 \t was made a rule? — ^Yes. 
 
 783. (Professor Allbutt.) I think you are in agreement 
 with other observers, that by such complete removal 
 from, the works as you are speaking of, not specially by 
 fresh air, but merely by removal from the works, these 
 cases are practically all recoverable ? — Yes. 
 
 784. Have you ever seen a fatal case 1 — No, I have 
 not. 
 
 785. Have you seen people in any great danger, 
 apparent danger ? — No. 
 
 786. They would recover in five or six weeks ? — Yes, 
 in the majority of cases in a fortnight. 
 
 787. You laid a great stress upon what I call dirty 
 hands, the lack of a certain special cleanliness in those 
 who are continraally handling these things ? — Yes. 
 
 788. That would account for perhaps a majority of 
 cases ? — Yes. 
 
 789. In fact, it is difficult to eliminate it from all the 
 cases ? — ^Yes. 
 
 790. Because if we go on to the matter of absorption 
 into the skin, either from the clothing or by any other 
 way than by putting it into the mouth, w© leave facts 
 for impressions rather. You cannot say that you could 
 eliminate the poisoning from the fingers in any case? 
 —No. 
 
 791. As to better ventilation, I am sure both em- 
 ployers and employed are agreed. But in what special 
 way would ventilation act? Wooild it carry away any 
 fumes or any vapours of a more volatile kind, which 
 might add to the poisoning from dirty hands ? Have 
 you observed any poisoning by more volatile matter? 
 — No, I have not. 
 
 792. Then ventilation is good forr this only as it is 
 for other businesses t — Exactly. 
 
 793. (Br. Legge.) There is one symptom you refer to 
 in every one of the reports you have made on cases of 
 this form of poisoning which you did not mention — that 
 is, lose of sensation in the feet? — I had no question 
 dravidng my attention to it. 
 
 794. That is, you think, one of the earliest symp- 
 toms ? — Yes. 
 
 795. Have you ever followed that up and seen whether 
 there is any definite loss of sensation ? — Yes. 
 
 796. And is there ? — Yes. 
 
 797. And when you said that it was so important for 
 them to wear very good boots, do you think there is 
 any connection between the two ? — ^Yes, certainly. 
 
 799. Then have you been able from your examination 
 of the men to single out any particular process that 
 injures the men ? — No, it is very fine. I could not say 
 that I have. 
 
 800. You have been round the factory, and you know 
 
 D 
 
26 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. L. where ths different men work? — Yes. I may say that 
 Parke, ji.d. the men breaking the material up seem to suffer the 
 
 Tnnc+ 1110+. n'i+.Vi Vir^nVinOf if. lln 
 
 2 Nov. 1906. 
 
 most — just with breaking it up. 
 
 801. Then they are not exposed to fumes ? — No. 
 
 802. Nor to handling it ?— No. 
 
 803. Is there dust at that point? — Yes. 
 
 804. Have you noticed any dust on the clothes of th®> 
 men ?— No, it is very fine. I could not say that I have. 
 
 805 With regard to the cotton operatives, who you 
 say are bad subjects, you have not inquired as to the- 
 precise point in the factory where they have been afc 
 work ? — No, I have not. 
 
 FOURTH DAY, 
 
 t'riday, 9th November 1906. 
 
 MEMBEKS PEESEKT : 
 
 Mr. Hesbeet Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Mr. Henry CtrNTNOHAME, c.b. 
 
 Professor Cliffoed Alldtjtt, f.r.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. R. R. Baxnaiy>"e (Acting Secretaryf^ 
 
 Mr. Leonaed Hill, m.b., f.e.s., called in, and Examined. 
 
 Mr. L. Hill, 
 
 M.B., F.E.S. 
 
 9 Nov. inO'i 
 
 806. (Chairman.) You have had considerable experi- 
 ence in caisson disease ? — Yes, I have worked at it for 
 about eiglit years. 
 
 807. And caissons, I suppose, are increasingly used 
 in engineering? — Yes ; there have been about a dozen 
 large works in England since 1890 in which they have 
 been used. 
 
 808. Have you any statistics of the number of cases 
 of this disease which have been recorded ? — Well, I 
 have got here a book which gives the number of deaths 
 which have been recorded, but not the total number 
 of cases of illness ; but from the number of deaths one 
 could get an idea as to the proportion of cases of illness 
 there must have been. 
 
 809. What book is that? — It is a book on the sub- 
 ject by Von Schrotter, who has worked a good deal on 
 this disease in Vienna. 
 
 810. Does it refer to the number of deaths in England 
 — Yes, he has tabulated here all the chief works 
 (caisson works) up to 1890 that have been constructed 
 in all countries. He has written to the officials of all 
 countries and collected all the evidence he possibly 
 could. 
 
 811. And could you tell us how many deaths he 
 attributes to this disease in this country in recent 
 years? — ^In this country? 
 
 812. Yes ? — The deaths have not been very numerous, 
 fortunately. There was one at Saltash, in Cornwall. 
 
 813. In what year?— In 1856 to 1859, at the Roya^ 
 Albert Bridge, built by Brunei ; four cases of death at 
 Londonderry, in Ireland, in 1859 ; at Glasgow (tunnel 
 under the Clyde) one or two deaths, and there has 
 been one recently at Newcastle. 
 
 814. So that deaths are comparatively infrequent? — 
 Deaths are infrequent in this country owing to the 
 comparatively shallow depths at which the works 
 hitherto have been carried out. In 1890 von Schrotter 
 tabulated 137 cases of death collected from all 
 countries. 
 
 815. But cases of the disease are far more numerous? 
 —Far more numerous. At Blackwall Tunnel, for ex- 
 ample, there were 20O cases — ^minor and more or less 
 severe cases. Then, at the St. Louis Bridge, in 
 America (one can get the proportions here of the 
 cases of death to illness when a high pressure is used) 
 there were 14 deaths and 119 cases of illness among 
 352 workers. That is the tunnel at which the highest 
 j)ressure ever used was employed. 
 
 816. When was that ? — It was built between 1869 and 
 1874. In New York (I am told) there have been about 
 18 cases of death — something like that — in the last 
 year or so ; Messrs. Pearson and Company are build- 
 ing a tunnel, and I believe they were censured (by a 
 
 coroner's jury) over the large number of cases of deatb 
 that occurred there. 
 
 817. When do the chief symptoms appear — after the- 
 men come out from the caisson ? — Always after coming- 
 out. 
 
 818. And to what is the illness attributed now by- 
 medical authorities? — All those who have worked at 
 this illness experimentally are convinced and agreed. 
 that it is entirely due to the setting free of nitrogen 
 bubbles in the blood and tissue fluids of the body. 
 Under the compressed air the body dissolves an excess 
 of air, the oxygen gas in this air is of no importance, 
 because that is combined chemically with the tissues, 
 whereas the nitrogen is not chemically combined. On 
 coming out rapidly from compressed air this nitrogeis 
 gas is set free in the blood and tissue fluids. 
 
 819. You say "rapidly.'' If the pressure is gradu- 
 ally relaxed then the danger is proportionately- 
 lessened ?— Entirely so. The dissolved gas then is- 
 given off from the lungs. 
 
 820. So that the disease is quite preventable, if 
 proper precautions are taken ?— Quite. 
 
 821. The precautions being that the interval between 
 the subjection of the man to the maximum pressure and 
 his emergence into the ordinary air should be suffi- 
 ciently long ? — Quite so. 
 
 822. You yourself, I believe, have made experiments 
 m this direction?— Yes, I have been experimenting as 
 I have said for eight years, first upon animals, then, 
 upon myself : my co-worker, Mr. Greenwood, has also- 
 experimented upon himself. 
 
 823. And you have found that, with proper precau- 
 tions, it was possible to be exposed to a very great 
 pressure without danger ?— Quite. We have been 
 under considerable pressures— Mr. Greenwood's pres- 
 sure of 92 lbs., I do not think, has ever been exceUed— 
 it IS deeper than the deepest pressures under which 
 divers have ever done work ; only one or two divers 
 have ever been to these great depths (they have been 
 divers seeking for treasure in wrecks) and accident® 
 have been frequent among them. There are, I believe, 
 10 fatal cases a year amongst sponge divers off the 
 island of Hydra, who dive to about 40 to 45 metres. 
 
 824. Do persons vary in the degree of susceptibility 
 to this 1 Iness ?— Yes, they do ; one of the most 
 remarkable things is that young animals are very 
 immune to it ; for instance, if we decompress an old 
 rabbit and some young rabbits, two or three weeks 
 ° .r fj'^P'^®^^ ^K®"* rapidly from eight atmospheres 
 —the old one would be almost certain to die : but the 
 young ones generally escape. We have decompressed 
 young animals from eight atmospheres in as short a 
 time as four seconds, and the young animals have 
 survived m most cases. There seems to be a very great 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE 01^ INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 27 
 
 limmunity in the case of very young animals. The 
 ■statistics seem to show that young men escape from 
 caisson trouble to a very large extent. 
 
 825. Is it possible to differentiate caisson illness 
 from other illnesses? — ^Well, you see, caisson illness is 
 produced by buj^ibles occurring in the blood, and these 
 bubbles may block up- any vessel in any part of the 
 ■liody ; if they occur in the muscles or joints they 
 cause violent pains, which are called " bends " by the 
 workmen ; if they occur in the heart in sufficient 
 amount, they may stop the action of the heart and 
 ijiroduce instant death; if they occur in the central 
 nervous system, they may cause paralysis ; and the 
 paralysis may be of the most varying kinds, accord- 
 ing to the places where the oubbles occur. A bubble 
 may occur in the central artery of the retina of the 
 eye and produce blindness ; it may occur in the 
 ■.internal labyrinth of the ear and produce noise in the 
 iiead and vertigo ; it may occur in the great brain and 
 ;produce hemiplegia ; or it may occur in the spinal cord 
 •and produce paraplegia, so that the symptoms are ex- 
 tremely various. 
 
 826. Then, if you saw one of these cases and did not 
 'Jcnow that the man had been engaged in this particular 
 -employment, you would not be able to say, necessarily, 
 that his illness was caisson illness ? — No, you oould not 
 
 qxissibly, 
 
 827. But if you knew that he had been employed in 
 a caisson, his condition you would know was almost 
 <ertainly due to that employment? — If his symptoms 
 •came on after decompression in the right period of 
 ^;ime, and the symptoms agreed with some of the known 
 Jesuits that one gets experimentally, or which have 
 ibeen observed in caisson workers, one would be able 
 to arrive at the conclusion that it was a case of 
 ■caisson disease ; but it seems to me to be a thing which 
 allows malingering to take place. 
 
 828. Why? — Malingering would be very easy. I 
 mean if a man once read up " caisson disease " he 
 
 ■■could imitate certain caisson troubles and demand com- 
 rpensation. I had before me the case of a man who came 
 to see me a little while ago from the Rotherhithe 
 Tunnel, where they are using compressed air. This 
 man, I think, was a malingerer. He had made his 
 -■symptoms come on while in the tunnel under the com- 
 pressed air, instead of after decompression. Cases of 
 ^caisson illness coming on in the compressed air are 
 practically unknown. 
 
 829. What were the symptoms in that case ?— He had 
 severe pains in his head, pains of neuralgic type, which 
 jmight have been produced by bubbles quite well, 
 -because pain is one of the chief symptoms that caisson 
 workers have. This man had his headache come on in 
 the tunnel. It struck him " all of a heap," he said, 
 ■and left him unable to work. I think, therefore, this 
 -man was a malingerer. 
 
 830. Do the symptoms usually come on suddenly, or 
 vdo they develop gradually? — Oh, they generally come 
 on suddenly. A man is seized with sudden pain, or 
 -with paralysis, or falls unconscious. 
 
 831. Is that immediately after emerging? — No, it 
 "may be at any time up to half an hour, or even longer ; 
 "Sjecause the bubbles, once set free in the blood, may 
 
 linger about in some unimportant place — in some of 
 "the veins, for example, in the abdomen — and then, by 
 the movements of the man they may be dislodged and 
 ■work their way round into the heart and set up trouble 
 there or get into the spinal cord or some other place of 
 ■great import. I think in all caisson works the men 
 -frequently must have bubbles inside their blood 
 vessels, but the bubbles do not happen in most cases to 
 ^get into places where they do any mischief. 
 
 832. Do you ever get symptoms gradually increasing 1 
 —Yes, certainly ; in the case of " bends," the pain may 
 !get more and more severe. So, too, paralysis may get 
 more and more complete. 
 
 833. Would you ever have a case of a man who had 
 "been employed in this kind of work and who, after 
 ■Jeaving work, felt rather unwell, and got more and 
 ■more unwell over a period of days, and ultimately got 
 -very ill indeed ?— No ; that would be entirely unlike 
 '•caisson disease. 
 
 834. Then really this disease is in the nature of an 
 accident? — ^Yes, it is la mechanical lesion produced 
 by the appearance of the bubbles, the bubbles either 
 Wocking up the vessels and producing a complete 
 anaemia of the part which is supplied by the blood 
 -vessels, or the bubbles actually tearing the tissues. 
 
 835. But would you say that you get a com- Mr. L. Sill,] 
 paratively mild symptom at first and then later m.b., f.r.s. 
 
 on more sefrious symptoms?- — ^Yes, hut that would 
 
 always occur within a short space of time ; it never ^ Nov. 19 06. 
 would occur gradually in the course of days ; I mean, 
 
 you could not have mild symptoms one day and then 
 be stricken the day after with severe symptoms. 
 
 836. It would always be a question of hours? — It 
 would always be a question of hours. 
 
 837. At the most ? — Yes, I think so, certainly ; if 
 the bubbles get into the central nervous system they 
 will prodiice their results within a few hours. 
 
 '838. Do you think the disease can be diagnosed 
 with sufficient certainty to make it a proper subject 
 of -compensation from the employers, or do you think 
 that malingering would be so easy that it would be un- 
 just to make the employers of the workmesi pay 
 compensiation in such case.s ? — If the decompression 
 period was regulated the whole thing would be settled 
 m quite a different way, and a much better way. 
 
 839. But that is not within the competence of this 
 Committee to investigate. We cannot deal with 
 prevention, nor even with cure, but only with com- 
 pensation? — Well, the malingering would not occur 
 unless it were among men who ar© acute enough to 
 "get it up." There are such men — men who would 
 read up the whole subject. 
 
 840. But it would not be easy to imitate the 
 symptoms ? — Oh, no, not at all ; it would be very 
 difficult ; it would he extremely difficult to imitate 
 paralysis. 
 
 841. But the milder symptoms, for instance, 
 neuralgic pains? — They could be imitated, but then 
 they are not lasting ; a workman could not claim any 
 great compensation for those pains. 
 
 842. He would not be ill for a fortnight, for instance ? 
 — .Not as a rule ; they are not lasting. The only 
 minor cases that are lasting are, I think, the ear 
 troubles. Most of the minor cases of ear trouble are 
 produced by non-equalisation of the pressure, on either 
 side of the drum of the ear, during compression. A 
 workman suffering from catarrh of the throat, and who 
 cannot easily open his Eustachian tubes, should not go 
 into compressed air. 
 
 843. Suppose the term " caisson disease " were put 
 into the third schedule of the Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Bill, would its significance be universally under- 
 stood ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 844. Is there any term, such as " compressed- 
 air illness," which would describe it better? — ^Yes, I 
 think, on the whole, that " compressed-air illness " 
 is a better term. A " caisson "does not really neces- 
 sarily mean the eanployment of compressed air ; you 
 can have a caisson without compressed air being used. 
 
 845. And you could have compressed air, of course, 
 without a caisson ? — ^You could have compressed air 
 without a caisson, so that I think " compressed-air 
 illness " is the better term, but in the medical writings 
 
 • " caisson sickness " or " caisson illness " is the term 
 which is generally employed. 
 
 846. But if the term " compressed air illness " were 
 used in a Statute, there would be no danger of its 
 being misunderstood ? — No, none at all. 
 
 847. In any way ? — ^No. 
 
 848. (Professor Allbuti.) I may ask you. Dr. 
 Leonard Hill, about contingent conditions. You 
 spoke of individual susceptibility as illustrated by 
 animals. Are there contingent conditions, such as 
 alcohol, for example, or other contingencies in the 
 individual, which may determine the greater liability ? 
 — No, I do not think there is any clear evidence of any 
 other condition except youth that I know of. I 
 should, myself, recommend that no man should be 
 employed who was of gross, or heavj build — the smaller 
 and more muscular, and the thinner the body, the 
 better — I mean there is less tissue fluid to take up the 
 dissolved gas. Small animals, I might say, are com- 
 paratively immune compared to big animals — even an 
 old small animal — I mean a mouse or a rat — ^will stand 
 decompression much better than a bigger animal, a cat 
 or a dog. 
 
 849. Within the human body itself — -within the 
 individual — symptoms do not always take the same 
 order ; there may be in one man an air bubble 
 in a muscle, in another in the central nervous system, 
 and so on ? — ^Yes, that is purely a matter of chance, 
 I think — just where the hubbies happen to get. In 
 
28 
 
 MIKITTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. L. Bill, 
 M.B., F.E.S. 
 
 9 Nov. 1906. 
 
 divers jou very rarely get "bends,"' and in caisson 
 workers, " bends " are extremely common. I take it 
 that that is due to the extremely heavy muscular work 
 that the caisson worker does which determines the 
 supply of blood to the muscles and the joints. The 
 diver does not do such heavy work under water. 
 
 850. As regards malingering, the symptoms of the 
 malingerer could only be subjective symptoms, could 
 they ?— Yes. 
 
 851. That is, these which cannot be the subject of 
 direct observation ; and those are of the least impor- 
 tance ? — ^Yes — quite. 
 
 852. And in any case, transient? — Quite so. 
 
 853. I might just press one point a little further. 
 There is no experience of bubbles doing a latent harm, 
 or some slight injui-y to nervous centres, for example, 
 which, later, at some indefinite subsequent period, 
 might possibly have degenerative effects? — No, I have 
 no evidence of any such after effects. There is one 
 point I should like' to mention — it was not put down 
 in my notes ; that is, in regard to the ventilation 
 of caisson works ; that is a thing I forgot to put down, 
 but it is of importance, because in tunnel works, carbon 
 aionoxide may be set free, and you may get carbon, 
 monoxide poisoning contributing to the development of 
 caisson disease. If a man has got his blood partly 
 poisoned with carbon monoxide, he will be all right 
 while he is in the tunnel under the compressed air, 
 but when he comes out — when he is decompressed — he 
 may fall unconscious, because the amount of oxygen in 
 his blood at the normal atmospheric pressure would not 
 be sufficient to maintain his needs, owing to carbon 
 monoxide poisoning. I am not at all sure that some of 
 the cases, especially the 18 cases that have occurred in 
 New York, have not been due to this carbon monoxide 
 poisoning. 
 
 854. That means, does it not, that persons employed 
 in these trades, in your opinion, would be liable to two 
 kinds of evil influences — the carbonic monoxide and the 
 compression ? — Yes. 
 
 865. They may be more or less mixed P — That may be 
 SO'. It is a question of ventilation ; if the caissons are 
 properly ventilated there will not be the danger of 
 carbon monoxide being a contributing cause. 
 
 856. But in either case the effects would be imme- 
 diate. They would occur within hours in either case ? 
 — Yes, they would occur in a " shift," and they are due 
 tO' tie compressed air really. 
 
 857. It would make no difference in the date of the 
 " on-come " ? — No. 
 
 858. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Is tiere any written descrip- 
 tion or diagnosis of this disease that would be useful 
 to medical practitioners in diagnosing it? — A great 
 many of these cases have been recorded now — fully 
 recorded. 
 
 859. Can you indicate to the Committee any source 
 from which a good description could be got of the 
 disease — a description of all the symptoms that would 
 be understood by medical practitioners ? — You can only 
 read up the cases, because every case varies almost. 
 
 860. Could not you indicate to the Committee some 
 documents from which that could be got hold of ? — Yes. 
 The two great books on the subject are first the book 
 " La Pression Barom^trique," by Paul Bert (who first 
 of all established on animals, that bubbling was the 
 cause of disease), and secondly, this book of Von 
 Schrotter's " Luftdruck Erkraubungen." Bert's is a 
 French book, this is a German book, and neither of 
 them have been translated, but one could easily collect 
 a series of cases, or put a series of cases together. 
 
 861. Something could be done in that direction ? — 
 Yes ; that could easily be done. The information is all 
 in these. B. H. Snell has recorded the Blackwall cases 
 pretty fully in a book that he wrote — " Compressed Air 
 Illness." 
 
 862. In your view, apparently, where you were satis- 
 fied that there was an efficient slow decompression room 
 and that it had been properly used, and where the men 
 did not exhibit paralysis, you would be very much 
 inclined to put down the symptoms to malingering, 
 would not you ? — Yes ; if the proper decompression 
 period had been given. 
 
 863. Where the employers used a really efficient 
 decompression room it is extremely improbable that a 
 medical practitioner— or, if there was an appeal — the 
 lefereee would find the disease as a fact unless some 
 
 paralysis occurred that they could really idcnhfy?— 
 Yes. 
 
 864. I mean this, that mere complaints of headache- 
 or nervous feeling in a man who had come out of a. 
 really efficient decompression room would be subjects- 
 of the greatest suspicion ? — Yes, quite so. 
 
 865. And the only permanent effects of caisson sick- 
 ness, I understood you to say, are deafness ?— Paralysis, 
 and deafn-sss. 
 
 866. Paralysis and deafness. How long might th 
 paralysis last? — It may last until the person's death, 
 or it may kill him at the end of some months. 
 
 867. It may last from the beginning of it to the end 
 of a considerably long life ? — ^Yes. 
 
 868. How long might tne deafness last ? — That might 
 laat thie rest of the life too; deafness and dizziness. 
 Vertigo is a symptom, which is very troublesome. 
 
 8^. Those, however, are the only two permanent:, 
 effects are they ? — Yes ; as far as I know those are 
 the only two permanent effects. You might have a case- 
 like that one, I mentioned, of blindness, owing to a 
 bubble getting into the eye. There has beeai a case of 
 that kind. 
 
 870. What you are saying with regard to these cases 
 would be found described in the treatises to which you 
 kave alluded? — Yes. 
 
 871. The object of my asking these questions is to get 
 some help for the doctors, so that they may know 
 where they can obtain a description of the disease? — 
 Yes, quite. 
 
 872. Then the place where the nitrogen is dissolved 
 in the blood is the lungs, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 873. It struck me that it is possible that some car- 
 bonic acid might be absorbed into the blood too at the 
 same time ; is that ever the case ? — ^If there is ever an 
 excess of carbonic acid? 
 
 874. I mean the carbonic acid formed by breathing? 
 — No. 
 
 875. That would be impossible, would it ?— Yes. 
 
 876. I ask in my ignorance. You say: "No" So 
 that it would be nitrogen only that you would have to- 
 cope with and no other gas ? — Yes ; a considerable deal 
 has been made out of carbonic acid by Mr. Moir, 
 the engineer ; and Snell paid considerable atten- 
 tion to that also; but I am perfectly convinced — and 
 all experimental workers on this subject are convinced 
 — that carbonic acid has nothing whatever to do with it. 
 
 877. What explosives will give rise to carbon mon- 
 oxide in any material quantity ? — Any incomplete com- 
 bustion gives rise to carbon monoxide, I think. 
 
 878. I know tJiat several very dangerous poisons are- 
 formed by certain of the explosives? — Yes. 
 
 879. But I thought it was only gunpowder — perhaps 
 I am wrong in that — or perhaps you do not know ? — 
 No. I should not like to go into that point. 
 
 880. I thought it was only gunpowder that formed 
 carbon monoxide- — that it would be difficult to- get it, 
 from anything except gunpowder, and that the high 
 explosives — although they form dangerous compounds — 
 do not form that ? — Yes. 
 
 881. But you have not made any analysis, have you,, 
 that would enable you to answer any question as to 
 that? — No, I cannot. We are just going to work oa 
 that subject now. Of counse, when I say " carbon mon- 
 oxide," I should like to include any other gas which 
 acts in the same way as a poison. Mr. Moir has sug- 
 gested to me that carbon monoxide may be produced 
 by using low-flash oils as lubricants in- the air com- 
 pressor engines. 
 
 882. We know that people do get poisoned, 
 undoubtedly? — Yes. Hydrogen-sulphide, for example, 
 would act in exactly the same way. 
 
 883. That would have to come, in some respects 
 though, under a different category from " caisson 
 disease " ?--Yes ; it would be very difficult to separata 
 the two things, because I believe that these poisonous- 
 gases would act in this way— that they would make 
 the man much more liable to bubbling when he was 
 decompressed. His heart would be damaged by these 
 poisons, and he would not get rid of the nitrogen so 
 well as the normal man, so &at they would contribute 
 to the development of true caisson disease. 
 
 884. But you told us, I think, that in that com- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE OX INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 29 
 
 pressed stage there is oxygen present in the blood 
 which, when decompressed, is suddenly liberated, and 
 then the carbon monoxide begins to do its work with 
 more effect. Did I understand you to say that? — ■ 
 Yes ; it is a struggle between the carbon monoxide 
 and the oxygen. to possess the hsemoglobin substance 
 in the blood, and when the man is decompresS'3d the 
 oxygen pressure would fall down to the normal atmos- 
 pheric pressure. Of course, he would have part of his 
 blood combined with carbon monoxide, that combina- 
 tion having taken place in the caisson, and in those 
 conditions he would be worse off. 
 
 885. That carbon monoxide would not come off, but 
 would remain combined ? — It would remain combined ; 
 the want of oxygen would weaken his heart, the cir- 
 culation would be less efficient, and therefore there 
 would be more likelihood for the nitrogen bubbles to 
 come out in his blood. 
 
 886. (Dr. Legge.) Is saisson work ever carried out 
 except under medical supervision of the workers? 
 — Well, I think there has always been a medical officer 
 appointed. 
 
 887. And is he always in close proximity to the 
 works to attend to the men as they come out after 
 decompression? — That has generally been the case. 
 The County Council in their tunnels, such as 
 Blackwall and Rotherhithe, have appointed officers in 
 each case. 
 
 888. So it might be desirable that such a person 
 should be appointed as a referee in these cases ? — 
 Such medical officers may have no especial knowledge 
 on the subject. The ones that I have come across 
 have had no special qualifications for dealing with 
 caisson disease at all. Tlaey were aijpointed to 
 examine the men and reject unsuitable men, but that 
 is a thing which is almost useless. I mean you cannot 
 reject unsuitable m-m, you cannot find out who is un- 
 suitable except as regards age, and that they pay no 
 attention to. A medical officer who has held such an 
 appointment, and has seen many cases, and studied the 
 subject, would make a good referee. 
 
 889. Are the means of regulating decompres- 
 sion in the caisson as simple and easy for 
 instance as in your laboratory experiments ? — ^Yes, 
 they are perfectly simple. They have the decom- 
 pression chamber — what they call the " lock " — into 
 which the workmen come, which is a long steel tube 
 just giving you room to stand in or to sit in, and 
 then there is a tap, and the air is allowed to leak out, 
 and it is merely a question of controlling the rate at 
 which the air leaks out. 
 
 890. So that your experiments are exactly ana- 
 logous ? — Exactly the same. 
 
 891. (Chairman.) You used the term " bends " ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 892. What is the meaning of that ? — I think it means 
 that the man is bent up — that the pain is so severe 
 that it bends him up. The divers call these pains 
 " pressure " ; in describing their symptoms they speak 
 of "the pressure," and the caisson workers generally 
 talk of "bends." 
 
 893. You mentioned blindness as being a possible 
 result of compressed-air illness. I use that as an 
 illustration. If a man became blind after being 
 employed in a caisson, do you think that a court of 
 law or a medical referee could interpret that as 
 " compressed - air illness " ? — He would have to 
 become blind suddenly, and within an hour or two 
 of decompression. 
 
 894. Do you never get a case of blindness coming 
 on after a time? — No. It is an instant stroke, 
 a bubble gets into the artery and the blindness is 
 instantaneous. There is nothing like it in medicine, 
 except perchance a fragment of a solid body getting 
 into the artery. We do know of cases of that kind — 
 what we call vegetations — little inflammatory growths 
 on one of the valves of the heart ; a piece of such may 
 get swept off and be carried into one of the central 
 arteries of the retina. Such a mischance is exceed- 
 ingly rare. 
 
 895. (Professor Allhutt.) Is that blindness per- 
 manent ? — In the caisson business ? 
 
 896. Yes? — There is only the one case on record 
 that I know of ; that is why I have mentioned it ; it 
 occurred to one of the sponge divers. 
 
 897. (Chairman.) Would it not be simpler or safer 
 
 to say " compressed-air illness " rather than " caisson 
 disease " ; or would you say that this blindness is 
 " compressed-air illness " ? — If a bubble gets into the 
 central artery of the retina and suddenly produces 
 blindness after decompression, that is a case of com- 
 pressed-air illness. 
 
 898. Do you ever get cases in which men are made 
 ill by carbon monoxide or other gases only, apart from 
 the question of compressed air in a caisson? — No, I 
 have never come across that. Of course in other works 
 ■ — in mining and that sort of thing — carbon monoxide 
 is of great importance in a great deal. 
 
 899. But that of course would be considered simply 
 an accident ? — In these caisson works there are certain 
 cases which I believe carbon monoxide has had some- 
 thing to do with ; it is not established. 
 
 900. But it is never the primary cause of the illness, 
 is it ? — I think it may be. 
 
 901. It may be the primary cause? — I think it may 
 be the cause of the caisson illness. Anything that 
 causes it — great fatigue from hard work may. con- 
 tribute to the nitrogen bubbles being given off ; any- 
 thing that weakens the circulation and the respiration 
 and hinders the giving off of nitrogen quickly from the 
 lungs contributes towards these bubbles occurring, 
 and carbonic oxide poisoning may act in that way. 
 
 902. You would not say that cases were likely to 
 occur in which men employed in caisson work suffered 
 from carbon monoxide poisoning, but could not be 
 diagnosed as suffering from compressed-air illness ? — 
 No ; that I really could not answer. The cases that 
 Mr. Moir described to me as occurring recently in the 
 New York Tunnel seem to me much more like carbon 
 monoxide poisoning than compressed-air illness ; the 
 men fell, unconscious, immediately after they were 
 decompressed, and they recovered when they were put 
 into a recompression chamber and recompressed ; and 
 two of the cases which occurred were due to a fire in the 
 caisson. A fire occurred, and there was danger of ex- 
 plosives going off, and two of the men placing an air 
 pipe to their mouths rushed down the works to drag 
 away the explosives. The tunnel was full of smoke and 
 products of imperfect combustion, and when they came 
 back and were decompressed they both fell unconscious,, 
 but quickly recovered by re-compression. Those cases 
 were not, I think, compressed-air illness ; they were 
 carbon monoxide poisoning. 
 
 903. If simply "compressed-air illness" were put into 
 the third schedule of the Workmen's Compensation 
 Bill there might be a danger of litigation 
 as to whether a particular case was compressed- 
 air illness or whether it was carbon monoxide poison- 
 ing, might there not ? — The condition of the ventilation 
 of the tunnel would settle that at once. If the ventila- 
 tion was adequate, it would show at once that there 
 could not be a dangerous percentage of carbon mon- 
 oxide present, I think. 
 
 904. Do you thinik it would be just, where a man 
 was claiming compensation on the ground that he 
 had ompressed^air illness, to throw the burden of 
 proof on the man that it was due to his employment, 
 or do you think that the burden of proof ought to he- 
 thrown on the employer to show that it could not hav© 
 been due to his employment ? I might explain ; I do 
 not know whether you are familiar with the framework 
 of our Bill — ^the Workmen's Compensation Bill of this- 
 Session. In it the diseases of " occupation " are divided 
 into two classes — all those which are at present in 
 the Bill come under the first class, in which, if the 
 man is suffering from a disease— say, for instance, 
 anthrax— and has been engaged in wool-sorting or other 
 processes, then the assumption is that his " an- 
 thrax" illness is due to the wool sorting, and the 
 employer has to prove (if he can) that it is not due 
 to the wool sorting, but that it is due to some ex- 
 traneous cause. Then there are other diseases which 
 may (be included in the schedule as to which the 
 burden of proof would be thrown on the man, where 
 it is not practically certain that the disease did arise 
 from his employment, and in which he has to prove, it 
 having been established that he is suffering from the 
 disease, that it was due to his employment. Which 
 do you think would be the more just in this particular 
 case? — I think it would be more just for the employer 
 to have to disprove. 
 
 905. You think there is practically a certainty that 
 if the man has been employed on this work and has 
 
 Mr. L. Hill,\ 
 
 M.B., F.E.S. 
 
 9 Nor. 1906. 
 
30 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. L. Mi'/, these symptoms the symptoms are due to the work? — 
 M.B., F.R.S. Yes. 
 
 9 NovTlOOe. 906- (^^'■- Cunynghame.) Can you tell us what the 
 
 proportion of nitrogen absorbed by the blood is — how 
 
 many cubic centimetres the quantity? — For everj 
 atmosphere a hundred volumes of blood takes up 1.1 
 volume of nitrogen. That we have proved upon our- 
 selves. 
 
 907. Then a man can get this absorption of nitrogen 
 simply as a diver, without any going into a bell or 
 a caisson, can he? I mean that the mere air that he 
 has got in his lungs would contain sufficient nitrogen 
 to be absorbed and to be dangerous ? — No not " to be 
 dangerous." Under one atmosphere we always walk 
 
 about with 1.1 volume of nitrogen in every hundred 
 volumes of our blood ; but that is not dangerous, 
 because it is in equilibrium with the atmosphere. 
 
 908. How does the diver who goes down simply- 
 naked into the sea get enough nitrogen into the lungs 
 to be capable of its being absorbed to such an extent 
 as to endanger him? — He does not if he goes down 
 naked ; it is only dressed divers who suffer. 
 
 909. I understood that these " sponge divers "_ were 
 naked divers ? — No ; I was speaking of dressed divers. 
 The naked diver never sufiers. 
 
 910. The naked diver never suffers? — The naked 
 diver never suffers from caisson disease. 
 
 Mr. A. B. Rogers, called in and examined. 
 
 Mr. A. B. 
 Rogers. 
 
 911. (CJiairman.) You are the civil surgeon, I believe, 
 lit Cliffe Fort ?— Yes. In practice at Cliffe village. 
 
 912. At Rochester, is it ? — Cliffe near Rochester. 
 
 913. And you have had special experience of the 
 subject of poisoning by nitrous fumes ? — ^I have, un- 
 fortunately, had two or three fatal cases at Messrs. 
 Curtis and Harvey's high explosive works. 
 
 914. This poisoning arises chiefly in what industries ? 
 — It arises in the manufacture or the mixing of the 
 acids that make nitro-glycerine. 
 
 915. Do you know whether it occurs in any other 
 industries ? — The only other case that I have heard 
 of was one that occurred in Scotland — Gay Lussac — I 
 heard of it from one of His Majesty's Inspectors in 
 Scotland — there was a death there at the beginning of 
 the year. 
 
 916. A death where ? — Somewhere in Scotland — that 
 is the only other case I know of. 
 
 917. In what industry? — ^My information does not 
 tell me what that was. It must have (been in a sul- 
 phuric acid works, I take it. 
 
 918. Do the symptoms arise suddenly or gradually ? — 
 Very gradually. There are no immediate symptoms at 
 all — not for some hours afterwards ; the people will 
 stay at work. In the first case I had the man was 
 at work for four hours after he was fumed ; he then 
 began to S'how some symptoms. 
 
 919. Does the fuming take place at a particular 
 moment, or does it gradually increase? — There is con- 
 stant fuming throughout the manufacture^the mixing 
 of these acids, and at times when they get mixed a little 
 bit wrong — when there is some mistake or something, 
 then fuming takes place suddenly. In the first case 
 that I had the man had neglected to turn off a cook 
 which was left running all night to drain some of the 
 gullers. He telephoned up' the hill to let the nitro- 
 glycerine come down, and some of it was spilled on the 
 floors. He put some caustic soda on it, and it would 
 naturally fume at once. That occurred about seven 
 in the momingi, and I did not see the man until a 
 quarter past two in the afternoon. He died the next 
 day. 
 
 920. A case of that kind is really an accident rather 
 than a disease, is it not ? — ^Yes, it was quite accidental. 
 In the other case — the last case — that is the case of 
 Mr. Woodall — they mixed the acids wrong, and he 
 went in and tried to get them out again. He was in 
 the fumes for about an hour, I suppose. 
 
 921. (Professor Allbutt.) May I interpose a question? 
 When you say you did not see him until a quarter past 
 two you mean it was not urgent? — He did not com- 
 plain ; he never reported himself. 
 
 922. Because the symptoms were not urgent? — Not 
 urgent at all. 
 
 923. It was not owing to some neglect ? — Not at all. 
 "There is nothing particularly unpleasant in breathing 
 "the fumes. 
 
 924. {Chairman.) Then you do not have cases of 
 poisoning arising from the fact that men have been 
 worfking for a long period in these nitrous fumes, and 
 liave gradually got worse and worse ? — No ; in all these 
 places where they work they are quite open to the 
 air. There can be no explosion of the fumes except 
 something goes wrong with the works at the time. 
 There never should be any fuming at all, of course, 
 teyond a certain amount of fumes that are constantly 
 
 given off in these acid works, and the men get quite 
 used to that. 
 
 925. They are not incapacitated by them for any 
 length of time ? — Not unless they have had an overdose. 
 I have had about five men who have had a slight over- 
 dose, a.nd have had to be absent for about a week. 
 
 926. The effect of the overdose is always sudden, is 
 it ? — No, never sudden. 
 
 927. In what cases ? — Once a man was at work in the 
 acid recovery plant, and there was a crack in one of 
 the pipes, and he was at work rather long, and he 
 suffered a bit from nitrous fumes. He was 'not very 
 bad ; I just kept him at home for a week, and then 
 he was all right again. 
 
 928. You ooald say that he guc poisoned at a definite 
 «ime— within one or two hours ?— Yes ; all these cases 
 take place at a definite time, and not through continu- 
 ously working in the fumes— that does not have any 
 detrimental effect at all. 
 
 929. Can you distinguish with certainty the symp- 
 toms of this illness from any other illness ?— There is 
 no doubt when the symptoms do arise as to what it 
 IS ; besides that, you have got the history of the case. 
 
 930. But if yooi had not got the history of the case 
 you would not necessarily be able to say : " This is a 
 specific illness which must be duo to nitrous fumes " ? 
 —No, he is suffering from an acute pneaimonla,. 
 
 931. But if you know the history of the case you can 
 always say with oertainty that it does arise from the 
 nitrous fumes ?— You could always say that he was ill 
 from inhaling something that was irritating, but you 
 would not be able to mention the nature of it except 
 from the circumstance that you know that these things 
 are apt to ooour in your neighbourhood. I get various 
 kinds of fuming down there. At the cement works we 
 get carbon monoxide sometimes, and a good deal of 
 sulphur fumes sometimes, but nitrous fumes are quite 
 different from those. 
 
 932. In every case the symptoms are due to some 
 sudden cause ? — Yes. 
 
 933. And not to a gradual impregnation by the 
 nitrous fumes?— No', it is always due to some sudden 
 cause. 
 
 934. Therefore, it is really just as much an accident 
 as in the case of a man who suffers in a coal mine from 
 an explosion of gas?— Yes, just as much. 
 
 935. (Professor Allhuit.) The mode of death is by 
 acute pneumonia ?— Yes, the lungs are completely filled 
 with a browny watery fluid— absolutely filled. 
 
 936. Both lungs?— Both lungs, yes. 
 
 937. It does not set up the ordinary acute pneumonia, 
 but It IS the general effect of the whole?— The whole 
 of the mucous surface of the lung is affected. 
 
 938. That in itself would be characteristic, would 
 It not?---Yes, only you do not find that out until the 
 post mortem,. 
 
 ^ItJ^°''^f- ^""^ ""^^ ^y ^^"i'^^ examination ?- 
 Scarcely ; it is so rapid after it once commences ; the 
 
 STth.' '" """^ ^^' ''^''^^ ^''''^ ^" bubbling to 
 
 fiv^ff^i'*/*'^^'i*KP'''"* ^' *^^* t^^e is no cumula- 
 tive effect of any kind, as you hav« told the Chairman ; 
 for example, the^man would not become subject to' any 
 symptoms like hay fever, bronchitis- or anything ci 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 31 
 
 that kind ? — No ; we have eight or ten men working 
 the plant there, and they are perfectly healthy. 
 
 941. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Does a man either recover 
 completely or die in a case of this kind? — ^Yes, he 
 either recovers completely in the course of a day or 
 two, or he is. dead*within a very few hours ; but there 
 are no symptoms at the time. 
 
 942. (Dr. Jjegge.) Have you noticed a marked efiect 
 on the teeth of men working in these fumes 1 — No, nor 
 have I had any complaints. 
 
 943. Do the teeth become eroded ? — They have never 
 complained about it. 
 
 944. You have not noticed it ? — ^I have not noticed 
 it. They are old patients., and they would have com- 
 plained ; I should have heard of it if they had noticed 
 it. 
 
 945. Do the men suffer from injurious effects in the 
 nitro-glycerine department? — They suffer from head- 
 ache when they begin to work in it. 
 
 946. Is that transient? — ^Yes ; after they havei been 
 working at it some days the headache goes off, and 
 they do not suffer any more. 
 
 947. Are they incapacitated from work 1 — ^Sometimes. 
 
 948. For how long ? — For a few hours. 
 
 949. Not more than that?— No. You find it happen 
 in the case of those who are handling the cordite ; they 
 also suffer from this nitro-glycerine headache. It is 
 due to the dila.tation of the blood vessels of the brain. 
 
 950. I!hen you spoke of sulphur fumes, too?' — Those 
 we get at the cement works. 
 
 951. (Professor Allbutt.) On this question of head- 
 ache, do they become tolerant of the fumes? — Yes. 
 
 952. (Dr. Legge.) You spoke or sulphur fumes IP — 
 Yes. 
 
 953. Do you mean sulphuric acid fumes ? — ^No, the 
 sulphur fumes come off from the burning coal and 
 coke. We find those in the cement works. 
 
 954. With what effect ? — They call it a bad choking 
 effect ; and they seem to- have more efiect on the 
 stomach than on the lungs. 
 
 955. Does that incapacitate the workers? — For a 
 time ; they recover very quickly. 
 
 956. For how long does it incapacitate? — Generally 
 for an hour or two. 
 
 957. Have you had to treat them for a week at a 
 time ? — ^No. 
 
 958. Does it leave any effect — the sulphur — this 
 choking ? — No. 
 
 959. Is the work so constant that they remain at 
 it for a sufficient number of years for you to be a.ble 
 to say whether they have got chronic bronchitis as the 
 result of it?— Yes. These men have been working in 
 these works for generations. The works have been 
 going ever since I have been there, that is ten years. 
 There are no ill effects from it bodily ; it is only at 
 times, when they get what they call a down draughty 
 that they get these sulphur fumes. Usually the fumes 
 go up the high chimney, and it ocaurs from a change 
 of wind, or from some cause or other, they get this 
 down draught. Then these men have to clear out 
 of the kilns. For that I do not always get consulted. 
 They usually treat themselves by mixing up a lot of 
 ohalk ajid milk and swallowing that, and that puts 
 them all right. 
 
 960. And they can return to work next day ? — Yes. 
 
 961. Do you know of the use of sulphur in other 
 
 Mr. A. B. 
 
 Rogers. 
 
 mdustriee, such as the cleaning out of ships? — Diein- g y^^ 1995 
 fection of ships? ' 
 
 962. Yes. — We use sulphur as an ordinary disinfec- 
 tant in all cases of infectious illness. 
 
 963. Its effects there would be just as you have de- 
 scribed, you think ? — As a disinfectant ? 
 
 964. No, I mean 'ts effect on people who are exposed 
 to the fumes ? — ^Yes, 1 think so. I never knew anybody 
 who would go near a room that was being " sulphurised." 
 it is exceedingly unpleasajit. On the question of the 
 treatment of these men who have had the nitrous 
 fumes, my own idea is that I think they should have a 
 strong emetic. The Germans recommend the treat- 
 ment, I think, of chloroform. I do not know whether you 
 intended to go into that. You have my report there. 
 
 965. {Chairman.) Our business as a Committee is not 
 either the prevention or the cure, but compensation. — 
 
 I see. Of course, I did not know that. 
 
 966. {Dr. Legge.) Do they make picric acid.' — No. 
 
 967. Do you get men exposed at all to chlorine fumes f 
 — No. 
 
 968. Hydrochloric acid ? — No ; we do not use any on 
 the works at all. We use a good deal of sulphuric 
 acid, and it is in the recovery of the sulphuric acid, 
 that they get a good deal of these fumes. 
 
 969. {Chairman.) Is there any disease that is- 
 gradually contracted, and not in the nature of accident 
 which the men employed iu this industry suffer from ?— - 
 No, I do not thin.k so. I never heard of any. The 
 works have only been opened with us some three or 
 four years. My experience does not go over a large- 
 number of years, and I do not remember to have read 
 of anything of the kind. They seem to get quite 
 tolerant of the use of the nitro-glycerine. It has a 
 marked effect at first, but it soon goes off. 
 
 970. {Dr. Legge.) Do you say the works have only 
 been opened three or four years?— In saying that I 
 was speaking of Curtis and Harvey's ; they have only 
 been running about four years; four or five years. 
 
 971. You say you have seen some 12 to 15 cases of 
 poisoning by nitrous fumes ?— Not 12 to 15. I think I 
 have had three deaths, and I have had four or five other 
 cases, I think, 
 
 972. You say here, " I have seen some 12 to 15 cases : 
 of fuming since I have been here, and there have been 
 three deaths " ? — Well, there would be about 10 — 10 or 
 
 II .alto.gether. At the time when Mr. Woodall died 
 there were five. Five were fumed at that time but 
 Mr. Woodall was the only one whose case was fatal. 
 
 873. Have the others been isolated cases P — The others 
 have been isolated cases. One died after the explosion,_ 
 when the hill was blown up ; another was the case 
 where the nitro-glycerine was spilt. 
 
 974. Is it a Government factory ? — No, it is the pri- 
 vate factory of Curtis and Harvey. They are eon- 
 tractors for the Government. 
 
 975. You have not heard of similar cases occurring in 
 other places? — No, and I cannot find any literature on 
 the subject of nitrous fuming. I have looked through 
 a lot of the "Lancets" and I cannot find anything 
 about it at all. 
 
32 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 FIFTH DAY. 
 
 Thursday, 15th Novemler 1906. 
 
 PEESENT ; 
 
 Mr. Heney Cuntnghame, c.b. (in f/te Chair). 
 
 Professor Cliefoed Allbtjtt, e.h.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettany (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Jonatha:n' Longbotham, called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 Longhotham. 
 
 1 Nov. 1906. 
 
 977. (Chairman ) You are managing director of J. 
 Grayson Lowood and Co., Ltd. ? — A director, and I 
 am consulting engineer. 
 
 978. Director and consulting engineer of the firm of 
 J. Grayson Lowood and Co., Ltd., manufacturers of 
 silica bricks and fireclay goods, Deepcar, near Shef- 
 field ?— Yes. 
 
 979. You have been acquainted intimately with the 
 character and nature of this business for many years ? 
 • — I have. 
 
 980. And the firm, I suppose, is one that may be 
 called one of the leading and characteristic firms that 
 carry on the work in this country ? — Yes. 
 
 981. I believe we may take it that your works would 
 exhibit an example of a well-managed ganister works ? 
 
 —Yes. 
 
 982. Now, the process carried on at your works, I 
 believe, is as follows. You will correct me if I am 
 wrong. The ganister, when brought to the surface, is 
 first submitted to the action of a cracker or crusher? 
 — Breaker, we call it. 
 
 983. Which reduces the ganister into the size of 
 pebbles ? — Sizeable pieces, rather bigger than pebbles. 
 
 984. This process is done under the action of steam 
 jets ? — ^Yes. 
 
 985. With the view of carrying away any dust that 
 I may be generated ? — ^Yes. 
 
 986. The crushed material is then placed either in 
 . a damp or oomplet&ly wet condition under very heavy 
 
 iron rollers? — Edge runners. 
 
 987. Very heavy iron edge runners, by which the 
 ■product is reduced to paste? — To paste. 
 
 988. It is then mixed with a certain proportion of 
 lime ? — ^About 1^ per cent. We keep it as low as pos- 
 
 -«ible. 
 
 989. The lime in a solid state? — ^No, lim» water. 
 
 990. You do not let any of th« solid lime go into 
 ?— No. 
 
 091. It is mixed with lime water, and then moulded 
 into bricks. These bricks are placed by boys on the 
 drying shed floor? — ^Yes. 
 
 992. On a warm floor in a dry shed ?— Yes. 
 
 993. And dried ? They are then stocked an furnaces 
 and burnt? — In kilns. 
 
 994. After which they are ready for the markets- 
 Yes. 
 
 995. We have now got the outline of the process. 
 In the case of works like this would you expect a cer- 
 tain amount of phthisis ? — ^Well — — . 
 
 996. I am inviting you to give your ownl view ? — Do 
 you mean phthisis in a general sense? 
 
 997. Consumption? — Ordinary consumption. 
 
 998. I have used the general term on purpose for 
 you to designate it as you like, for you to put your 
 view forward 1 — ^Yes, I think so. 
 
 999. Some of those who suffer in this way, I suppose, 
 would be cases of ordinary phthisis, such as is got by 
 men in every employment? — Certainly part, probably 
 the greater part. 
 
 1000. Part, I suppose, is to be attributed to ganister 
 dust ? — So the medical experts say. 
 
 1001. That is the proper reply, of course. Then have 
 you anything to say in contradiction of that medical 
 view that ganister dust is capable of producing phthisis 
 apart from ordinary consumption? — ^No, I could not. 
 I could not give any opinion against the medical ex- 
 perts, because I know nothing of it, you see. 
 
 1002. Have you any figures giving the relative 
 amount of consumption among the men in a factory 
 like this, and consumption among the working popula- 
 tion generally?! — i have no figures whatever, except 
 that there were some prepared prior to 1900, and I do 
 not think they were prepared under the best conditions. 
 These figures are given in a Blue Book on page 494. 
 It takes about ten pages of the report of the Chief 
 Inspector of Factories for 1900. 
 
 1003. From conversation' I had with you, I gather 
 that your firm consider that whatever proceedings 
 may be taken to deal with this matter under Schedule 
 3, the trade ought to be protected from claims made in 
 respect of ordinary consumption ? — Certainly. 
 
 1004. That is to say phthisis not necessarily pro- 
 ceeding from ganister? — It would be very difficult to 
 get the necessary information. 
 
 1005. And do you believe that it is possible to dis- 
 tinguish the two diseases one from the other, and to 
 say how a man who has got phthisis contracted the 
 disease? — I do not think the laymen would know. 
 
 1006. But how far is your firm in a position to form 
 an opinion? Has your firm a doctor? How far are 
 you yourself in a position to say? — ^I really could 
 not say. 
 
 1007. Your doctor is not here? — ^WeU, we thought 
 probably you would have been calling a local doctor. 
 We have no doctor specially employed by the com- 
 pany. 
 
 IOCS. I understand that the local doctor is going to 
 give evidence before us ? — We believe that that particu- 
 lar doctor has very strong views on the question of 
 ganister. 
 
 1009. There seems no doubt, is it not so, that great 
 improvements have been brought about in the condi- 
 tions of work in your own factory and others during 
 the course of the last thirty years? — Oh, yes, very 
 great. 
 
 1010. And I believe you represent, as far, at all 
 events, as over ground operations are concerned, such 
 as we have seen to-day, that the risk of phthisis would 
 he very small indeed, in your opinion? — Very, indeed, 
 w© think. 
 
 1011. Now is there anything els© you would like to 
 add to what you have said ? — ^You have not mentioned 
 anything about the mining. 
 
 1012. Perhaps I had better take the mining? — The 
 mining is the subject upon which I am perhaps more at 
 home than the other, being a mining civil engineer. 
 
 1013. Would you give us your views of the subject as 
 regards mining, as regards mining and this disease? — 
 The only conditions, I think, under which there is , 
 danger of inhaling dust are when the men are engaged 
 in drilling holes for blasting, and when they are te- 
 moving the dust and the lumps of ganister into the 
 tubs for trajisit to the surface, and any danger there 
 would be, assuming there is such a disease, would he 
 greater if the ventilatii n of the mine were not properly 
 
DEPARTMENTAL. COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 33 
 
 carried out. The statistics that have been given of 
 deaths from this disease were very considerable before 
 1890-1900, partly because there was very little attempt 
 made to render dust innocuous, and partly because the 
 ventilation of the mines was not so complete as it is 
 at the present tim.g. Several things have been done 
 within the last few years to lay the dust, one of which 
 is the provision of cans containing water, which the 
 men have in their working places, and the water from 
 which they pour on to the stone before they remove it 
 into the tubs. They ai-e also supplied with, when they 
 require them or request them, respirators, and we 
 keep a considerable stock of respirators in the store 
 house. We find that the men are very indifferent 
 about the use of the respirators, and, in fact, I think 
 you may go in to the working place almost daily and 
 find very few of them using it. We believe that the 
 use of the respirator at any rate would do more than 
 anything else to prevent the inhaling of the dust. 
 
 1014. What type of respirator do you use — alumi- 
 nium and cottom ? — ^You might see one. We will pro- 
 duce one. 
 
 1015. Is it found that the use of the respirators 
 impedes the men working? — ^They say that it is very 
 inconvenient. Of course that is because they will not 
 use themselves to it. You can take it off a little for 
 a rest and put it on again. That is all that would be 
 needed {respirators produced). 
 
 1016. These are the respirators? — Yes, they are 
 quite impervious to the passage of dust. 
 
 1017. These consist of wool? — ^Woollen material. 
 Wool and cotton. These are got specially. 
 
 1018. Of the woollen material with cotton covering ? 
 — And there is no restriction as to the number of 
 respirators they may use. If one gets dirty and wet 
 they can come and apply for' another. 
 
 1019. Who supplies these ? — They have a trade 
 name; from a Manchester firm. 
 
 1020. Is there anything else ? — We think that, before 
 the industry is placed under Schedule III., we ought 
 to see how the special rules which were only arranged 
 last ye^r, with a view to prevent the disease, operate, 
 otherwise there may be a considerable number of men 
 now suffering from lung disease who might be thrown 
 sooner or later on to the companies' compensation 
 list, which would very seriously cripple the industry 
 itself, and I think one of the first things it would be 
 necessary for the company to do would be to have every 
 man examined, and ascertain whether he had even the 
 beginning of the disease upon him, and then I do not 
 know what the result would be. It would depend upon 
 the numiber who were suffering from lung disease 
 whether the works would have to be practically closed 
 or not, for the time being, at any rate. For instance, 
 if there is a large percentage of the men now suffering 
 from lung disease, on a medical man's certificate it 
 might be stated to be fibrosis or ganister disease, as it 
 is called, and the onus would be thrown on the em- 
 ployer of proving that it was not so, which vTOuld he 
 difficult, as it seems to be hard to diagnose or differen- 
 tiate between ordinary phthisis and ganister disease, 
 and the employer should not be penalised for the past. 
 We ought not to go back into the past and be responsi- 
 ble for the disease, if contracted years ago ; but the 
 Act, I take it, does not contemplate such a course. 
 
 1021. Therefore you mean that any liability under 
 the Act ought to be limited to cases in which the 
 disease has been caught after the Act comes into 
 operation ? — Certainly, it ought to be limited to that 
 at least. Supposing you examined the whole of the 
 men, and you found there was a considerable propor- 
 tion — say, 50 per cent. — I do not say there is anything 
 like that percentage, but assuming that there was — 
 suffering from lung disease in any form, what would 
 our duty be? We could not take upon ourselves the 
 liability. 
 
 1022. (Dr. Legge.) Have you ever had an examina- 
 tion of the men carried out? — ^No. If we had known 
 this was going to take place we should. 
 
 1083. It was suggested in this report in 1900 that 
 there should be a periodical six^monthly examination, 
 and that the persons affected should be eliminated ? — 
 This has not been done because we did not wish to 
 deal harshly with our work people. It is a pity, how- 
 ever, in present circumstances, with this Bill about to 
 become law, that this has not been done. 
 419 
 
 1024. Do you know of men who have left the work 
 because of, say, shortness of breath or something affect- 
 ing their lungs, who have come back apparently quite 
 recovered?— I think you would get that information 
 better from the mine manager. 
 
 1025. He is not here?-— No, not yet; I thought I 
 would like to finish my evidence first. I wanted very 
 much to impress upon the Committee the point that 1 
 have just mentioned. 
 
 1026. {Chairman.) Your point being that some dis- 
 crimination must be made between men who have got 
 the disease in past years aaid some time ago, and the 
 men who develop it after the Act comes into opera- 
 tion ?l — Yes, and I would like to refer you while you are 
 here to a talk which I had in the presence of Mr. 
 Cunynghame with a man who was engaged in a kiln, 
 stacking the bricks before burning, in which he said 
 he was a member of a family of nine and he was the 
 only one who had worked at the brick works, that 
 they were a consumptive family, that he was the oldest 
 remaining member of the family, and that six of them 
 had died of consoimption, all under thirty years of age, 
 none of those having worked at the brick works. 
 
 1027. {Dr. Legge.) Was that a man called A. ? I 
 examined a man in 1900 who was setting bricks who 
 said he was of a consumptive family, consisting of nine 
 brothers and sisters, of whom six had died of phthisis. 
 That may be the very man ? — It is strange that I 
 should have asked the same man. 
 
 {Chairman.) Is he free from phthisis? 
 
 {Dr. Legge.) I had noted him as having good phy- 
 sique and found his chest healthy. 
 
 1028-9. {Chairman.) That is the man, evidently ? — 1 
 do not thinik there is any harm in mentioning his case 
 again. What I want to point out is this : that if there 
 were any similar family history in another case it 
 would be almost a miracle for the man concerned not 
 to be suffering from phthisis, and if he was affected 
 with the disease, it would invariably be put down to 
 his occupation. 
 
 1030. {Dr. Legge.) You understand the way in which 
 the Act is to be administered, that persons suffering 
 have to be examined by the certifying surgeon for the 
 district, and on his certificate it is decided whether the 
 disease is due to the employment or not? — Yes. 
 
 1031. And if there is any dispute either on the part 
 of the worker or the employer as to that decision, it can 
 be referred to a medical referee, whose word is final ? — 
 Yes, and who appoints him ? 
 
 1032. The Secretary of State. There is no litigation 
 as may arise in the case of an accident. You do not 
 dispute, I suppose, that the list of deaths here is 
 largely due to ganister? — I cannot dispute them or 
 accept them. 
 
 1033-4. I will just finish this question. I was 
 referring to this list, largely due to ganister miners' 
 disease, published on page 465, because I have notes 
 to the effect that you were good enough to supply me 
 with the names of the men employed here who had died 
 since 1893. I got these names and their ages, and 
 then ascertained from the death certificate the cause 
 of death, and that is what appears on this list not 
 only from your firm but from others ? — That is really 
 a conglomerated list. 
 
 1035. That is a conglomerated list ? — Both your con- 
 clusions and our information. 
 
 1036. You furnished the names ? — Of those who died. 
 
 1037. Of the deaths, and then the cause of death was 
 ascertained from the death certificate ? — By you ? 
 
 1038. By us. — I have nO' reason to dispute what you 
 say. 
 
 1038-40. This includes also deaths in other silicia fire 
 brick companies here in addition to yours? — Yes. 
 
 1041. Is tiS" ere any sick club in connection with your 
 firm 1 — That is a question you must ask the manage- 
 ment. There is a sick club, I believe. The workmen 
 administer it themselves. I should like to say that the 
 management desire to know what is the true reading 
 of section 8 of the Act. Does it intend that we shall 
 compensate men who contract this disease through 
 ganister in future, or does it mean that next year we 
 shall be bound to compensate all those men who may 
 be considered to have contracted it in the past ? This 
 question is one of great importance for us, 
 
 E 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Lu ghotlidin, 
 
 IC'Xo.. 1906. 
 
34, 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Longbotha)!!, 
 
 15 Nov. 19C0. 
 
 and I think for the men also. Supposing that 
 we liad all the men examined and a number of 
 them were certified to be suffering from the disease. 
 If these men continue in their employment, can it be 
 so arranged that they would not come within that Act ? 
 
 1042. Those at present employed ? — Yes, if they 
 agreed of their own accord to continue work ; certainly 
 that is a very important thing to us, because I do not 
 know how we are going to manage if there is a large 
 number, and I am not so sure there may not be. The 
 industry will not stand a great deal. 
 
 1043. (Chairman.) Your contention is that tbe Act 
 was not intended to apply to diseases caught in the 
 past ?^Yes. 
 
 1044. And consequently that in any case in this 
 industry it would be probably necessary to have re- 
 course to the powers under sub-section 6 ? — Yes. 
 
 1045-6. (Dr. Legge.) There is another section ; any 
 claim can be lodged within a year after the cessation 
 of employment. If a man left and developed and died 
 from phthisis, combined with ganisfcer disea-se, within 
 the year, it would be very hard on him if he could not 
 recover compensation ? — If he got it before ? 
 
 1047. Supposing you were to examine all your men, 
 and you were to dismiss those who showed signs of the 
 disease ? — Yes. 
 
 1048. And one of these died within the year after- 
 wards, within the time, that the Act admits of claim 
 being made his relatives might recover compensation ? 
 — Then you are going back again ; that is making the 
 Act retrospective and would be very unjust. 
 
 1049. No, the death takes place ? — After I have 
 
 dismissed him. 
 
 1050. Within the year. The Act specifies the limit 
 of a year? — I see. 
 
 1051-2. Have you ever placed any limit on the length 
 of time that the men should work here? — I>o you mean 
 as to period of hours work? 
 
 1053. Length of years?— No, nothing. 
 
 1054. That no man should work after he had been 
 employed ten years ?— No, oh, no. No limit of that 
 kind. I think that would practically mean an in- 
 surance fund being arranged. 
 
 1055. I suppose you could supply the Committee with 
 the figures as to the ages of the men and the duration 
 of their service, of the men who are working here at the 
 present time ?— Yes, we could get them. 
 
 1056. Then you have a sick club. Do you administer 
 the funds of the sick club ?— No. 
 
 1057. Is the report printed ?— I have nothing to do 
 with it. They have it amongst themselves. 
 
 1058. Do they get their sick pay only after producing 
 a medical certificate of the cause of absence ?L- Yes. 
 
 1059. Are these certificates kept ?— I do not know. 
 
 1060. (Chairman.) What you have wished to explain 
 is this ; the result of placing this disease in the Third 
 Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Bill might 
 be to bring about the wholesale dismissal of the men? 
 ■ — I am afraid that that is the only course' that would 
 be open to us. We do not want to do it. If we had 
 to dismiss these men it would paralyse our business 
 for a time. There is no doubt about that, and, if we 
 did not dismiss them, we should be taking over a 
 liability tha-t would be very serious. 
 
 1051. That is your side. On the other hand, on the 
 men's side, it would be that they would lose their em- 
 ployment 1 — There are only two alternatives. Either 
 we must go on with the risk of this liability or we must 
 stop the works, in which case the men lose and the 
 business is paralysed. 
 
 1062. (Dr. Legge.) Do you know whether the 
 families of men who have died of ganister disease are 
 in receipt of poor relief ? — I think there may have been 
 ouch cases. I do not know whether there are. 
 
 William Bell, called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. TV. Betl. 
 
 do 
 of 
 
 1055. (Chairman.) You are one of the workmen her©, 
 »re you ? — Yes, Sir. 
 
 1064. What do you work at? — I am timekeeper. 
 
 1065. You act as secretary to the benefit club, 
 you ? — To Court Lowood, of the Ancient Order 
 Foresters. 
 
 1066. That is a branch of the society which is 
 established here ? — Yes, Sir. 
 
 1067. How many men in this mine belong to that 
 society ? — Well, I should have to have my books to say 
 exactly. 
 
 1068. Can you give us the figures approximately 1 
 — We have not many miners at present. I am speak- 
 ing of the Foresters, not of the workmen's club. The 
 ■workmen's sick club for men on the surface is not, I 
 believe, in existence now. 
 
 1060. Is that tecausei the men have taken to 
 the Foresters' Society instead? — I cannot say that. 
 There was a lot of sickness which exhausted their 
 funds, and when they found there was no chance of 
 their getting sick pay they would not go on paying. 
 That was the top men's society. The Foresters are a 
 branch of the society all over the world, of course. We 
 have a few members here, and I have several members 
 in other works all about. 
 
 1070. You used to be secretary of the top men's club ? 
 —No, not secretary for them. 
 
 1071. Have you given any relief pay from the 
 Foresters in respect of men who were ill here ?- 
 
 -Yes. 
 
 1072. You ha>ve in the course of last year? — Yes. 
 
 1073. For what complaints did they get that pay? 
 —Mostly colds, or for sickness, influenza, and, of 
 course, some for small accidents. 
 
 1074. I do not want to know of the miners' accidents. 
 Has there been any relief pay given to members who 
 have suffered from ganister disease ? — Only to one 
 member. He died from that. 
 
 1075. In the course of the last year ? — Yes, at the 
 commencement of this year. 
 
 1076-77. What was the cause of death, as given on 
 the death certificate ? — I caiunot say. I have not the 
 book with me. 
 
 1078. (Dr. Legge.) Is there any limit to the length 
 of time for which the person receives sick pay ? — There 
 is no limit, only it falls as the time goes on. Twenty- 
 six weeks 10s. 
 
 1079. And after that ? — Twenty-six weeks 7s. 6d. 
 tS^nd. then the remainder is 5s. to the end of the sick- 
 ness. 
 
 1080. No question was ever raised by the Order of 
 Foresters in making the conditions of insurance more 
 difficult for the men employed here ? — No, Sir. They 
 only insisted upon a penny extra for miners, but that 
 accounts for all miners, a penny extra for the miners 
 per fortnight. 
 
 1081-82. Are there many of the ganister miners who 
 insure? — Not many. 
 
 Abtiiub, Stbees, called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Steers. 
 
 1083. (Chairman.) What is your work, below ground? 
 —No, Sir. 
 
 1084. Surface work?— Yes. 
 
 1085. What is the nature of it ?— Engine driving. I 
 work the hauling engine. 
 
 1086. You are secretary of a benefit society for the 
 men, are you 1 — Yes. 
 
 1087. Underground ?— Yes. 
 
 1088. Only?— Yes. 
 
 1089. What do they pay a week towards the society ! 
 ^Sixpence. 
 
 1090-1. Do all pay the same sum ? — ^Yes. 
 
 1092. Now, what benefit, do' thoy get in case of iUness 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 35 
 
 or accident ? — Ten shillings per week for the first twelve 
 weeks, 5s. for twelve weeks, and then half a crown per 
 week for the remainder of the sickness. 
 
 1093. But if the sickness lasted all their lives? — 
 They would get it all their lives. 
 
 1094. It goes on ?— Yes. 
 
 1095. Is your society financially all right? — Yes. 
 
 1096. Because the club amongst the upper men has 
 ceased to exist, being financially unsound ? — Ya?. 
 
 1097. They paid away what they had and were un- 
 able to continue ? — Yes, but we have always had some- 
 thing to divide at the end of the year. 
 
 1098. It is a sick and dividing society. But if you 
 divide up, what becomes of the men who are on the 
 list permanently ? They might lose everything ? — We 
 keep these on. 
 
 1099. It depends upon the goodness of the men, I 
 was going to say, in subscribing for the next year, 
 because if they were to divide up at the end of the year 
 
 all there was and refuse to continue the society 1 — 
 
 They do not get so near. They do not divide so near. 
 They only divide what they can safely divide. 
 
 1100. Having regard to their liabilities? — ^Yes. 
 
 {Mr. Longbotham.) I do not think he understands 
 that question. It is an actuarial question. 
 
 1101. {Chairman.) How many members, roughly, 
 have you got in that society? — I should say 130; per- 
 haps a little more. 
 
 1102. And how many underground men are there 
 altogether? — ^I could not tell you. They are very 
 nearly all in. I should say about 160. 
 
 1103. How many men have you got at the present 
 time on the books receiving pay ? — I could not tell you 
 to one or two ; not very many. 
 
 1104. Not more than a few ? — Not more than a few. 
 
 1105. What is the matter with these men ?— Tlhere 
 
 are one or two suffering from accidents and some from 
 sickness. 
 
 1106. Have you any men on the books that are 
 suffering from ganister miners' disease ? — I do not 
 think we have any now. Sir. 
 
 1107. You have been, I suppose, here or in the trade 
 some years ? — I have been here about eighteen and a 
 half years. 
 
 1108. Have you seen men in the past made ill by the 
 dust 1 — Yes, I have seen some of the men that had this 
 complaint. 
 
 1109. What are the symtoms you have . observed, 
 through dust ; what are the symptom^s 1 — Something 
 like consumption, they waste away. 
 
 1110. In the past have you made payments from the 
 society's funds to men who have suffered in that way? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1111. Have you had any deaths 1 — Yes. 
 
 1112. And how much do they get in the case of death ? 
 — Five pounds. 
 
 1113. The widow gets that ? — Yes. 
 
 1114. And you say tha.t the amount of illness through 
 the ganister dust is decreasing very much now ? — 1 
 should say so. 
 
 1115. Less than it was when you were a lad ? — ^Less 
 than it was, I should say. 
 
 1116. I suppose it is rather difficult to get men to 
 wear these respirators amongst other things ? — I do not 
 kaiow, I am sure ; I do not get amongst them much. 
 
 1117. You are not down enough for that ? — No. 
 
 1118. {Dr. Legge.) Were you one of the members 
 from the very start ? — Yes, from the start of the club. 
 
 1119. On what did you model it ; what other society 
 did you take as your model? — I could not say. 
 
 1120-1. {Mr. Longbotham.) How long have you been 
 secretary ? — Only these last two years. 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Steers. 
 
 15 Nov. 1906. 
 
 Mr. John McLaren, m.b., cm., called, and examined. 
 
 1122. {Chairman.) You are a Bachelor of Medicine, 
 ot Edinburgh University, I believe ? — Yes. 
 
 1123. You have been in practice here for ten vears ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1124. Are you employed by any firm professionally, 
 or by the men ? — ^Well, I have an agreement with one 
 firm in my neighbourhood to render first aid when 
 required at their expense. 
 
 1125. I see ; I was desirous of discovering what con- 
 nection you have with either the employers or the 
 men ? — I have one small club of about twenty membej's. 
 
 1126. That club, I suppose, is composed of working 
 men ? — ^Yes. The club members reside in a. widish dis- 
 trict. They are not necessarily employed in these 
 works. 
 
 1127. Are they workmen ? — Not purely. Some are 
 farmers. 
 
 1128. But some are workmen ? — There are a few 
 miners amongst them. 
 
 1129. And that club employs you?' — Yes. 
 
 1130. It is a small medical club ?^— For medical 
 attendance. 
 
 1131-2. Have you had many oases of phthisis, using 
 the term in the general sense ? — By phthisis you mean 
 disease of the lungs. There has been a certain amount 
 in the neighbourhood since I took up practice there. 
 
 1133. You say that there has been a certain amount 
 of phthisis. Can that be attributed to ganister? — A 
 certain proportion of the cases, undoubtedly. 
 
 1134. Have you seen cases of phthisis produced by 
 ganister ? — ^Yes. 
 
 1135. The disease has a great deal diminished of late 
 years, even since you have been here ? — In my time ; it 
 has practically of late years become extinct. 
 
 1136. You would use such a strong expression as 
 that ? — In my district. 
 
 1137-8. What district is that ?— The district of which 
 I am certifying factory surgeon, which practically 
 coincides with the area in which I practise. 
 
 1139. {Professor Allbutt.) What is the name of your 
 district il — Oughtibridge. 
 
 419 
 
 1140. {Chairman.) How many square miles is that 
 district ? What is the area froon one end to the other ? 
 — It is rather sparsely populated. It is one of the 
 biggest factory districts in England, but possibly the 
 smallest population. 
 
 1141. Largest in area and smallest in population ? — 
 I believe it extends from the Don to the Derwent in 
 one direction. 
 
 1142. And the amount of the population ? — It is not 
 thickly populated. 
 
 1143. Have you attended fatal cases of phthisis 
 which might be attributed to ganister? — Yes. 
 
 1144-5. Have you made postmortem examinations of 
 them t' — Yes, on one occasion we did. 
 
 1146. {Professor Allbutt.) Let us come back to the 
 meaning of the word phthisis. I think we all of us 
 mean by this merely a chronic disease of the lung, with., 
 a fatal tendency of course? — Yes. 
 
 1147. You would not object to use the word phthisis-, 
 to other conditions except tuberculosis. A chronic 
 disease of the lungs — we will drop the word phthisis it 
 you like — phthisis is a common expression ? — Yc's. 
 
 1148. Tliere is no harm in it. It does not commit 
 us to tuberculosis. You speak of phthisical disease as 
 having a certain degree of prevalence. Are you now 
 speaking of tuberculosis or of that and ganister 
 disease ? — Trade disease. 
 
 1149. When you came to Oughtibridge there was 
 more of this disease than there is now'? — There seems 
 to have been an accumulation, and a certain number 
 died who had contracted the disease some time before. 
 
 1150. And they were not recruited from any other- 
 source ? — Of late years, no. 
 
 1151. Is that because there is any change in the 
 relations of your population to the ganister works ? — 
 Well, I think it was entirely due to action which 
 originated from the Home Office. Dr. Legge made a 
 visit some years ago, and as a result of tha,t the work- 
 men seem to have been greatly impressed, and they 
 took much more care ; and voluntarily, when they do 
 not seem well, in my district they come and ask me if 
 I think they should not change their employment. 
 
 E 2 
 
 Mr. J. 
 McLaren, 
 M.B., CM. 
 
36 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 MrLarni 
 M.D., CM 
 
 15 Nov. I'l 
 
 1152. I see. I will put it another way. Do you 
 r.^comnKjnd men to change their employment? — Not 
 r.iany. I have recommended a few, not many of late 
 ■ ?ars. 
 
 1153. Speaking of the district, would your sphere of 
 j.xperience correspond with the ganister area, an area 
 
 if ganister workers? — A large number of them live in 
 V district, and a number of them live in the district 
 ."aid work out of it in another district where they are 
 liable to the same disease. 
 
 1154. You give us a very encouraging opinion, that 
 I'lie advice given by Dr. Legge and carried out by the 
 workers has been sufficient to reduce the disease very 
 Miuch ? — Very much, Sir. 
 
 1155. Does that include the use of a respirator?— 
 No, Sir, not necessarily. 
 
 1156. What are the rules or regulations by which the 
 disease has been reduced?— I can only speak for the 
 firms in my own area, and they have adopted, instead 
 of as previously a dry process, a universal damp pro- 
 cess. They keep down the dust by all means in their 
 power. 
 
 1157. Including spray? — Spray, and they have men 
 specially to sweep away the dust after turning the hose 
 upon it. These men have nothing els© to do but sweep 
 away the dust. 
 
 1158. {Chairman.) You are speaking of underground 1 
 — In the mines they make every endeavour to keep 
 things damp to prevent the accumulation of dust. 
 
 115i9. (Professor Allbutt.) The dust is both above and 
 below ground ? — Yes. 
 
 1159*. Is there any regulation about entering the 
 mine after a shot has been fired ? — I cannot say. As 
 factory surgeon T have no official connection with 
 mines. 
 
 1160. These rules. Dr. McLaren — I daresay you have 
 seen them — these rules (produced) have been, oonxpul- 
 sory for something like a year^-Might I jusi; see them. 
 
 1161. Could you tell us whether there has been any 
 great change in the last twelve montligjn'^he conduct 
 of the men and in the safety of ther men ? — I have no 
 official knowledge. I have never had a copy of these 
 rules sent me. 
 
 1162. As a matter of general knowledge you were 
 perhaps aware of them ? — Well, for years the employers 
 have been in the habit of having a regulation that a 
 man should not go near the place after a shot or blast- 
 ing for a certain number of minutes. That has been 
 the case, I should say, at two places. I know from 
 common knowledge. 
 
 1163. These regulations were suggested in 1899? — 
 I see. 
 
 1164. And you have been in practice 10 years ? — Yes. 
 
 1165. Then there is something of a coincidence ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 1166. During your experience of seven out of those 
 -ten years there has been so great a diminution as to 
 amount to a practical extinction ? — I can only speak 
 for my own district in which I practice, and, of course, 
 I do not always see every case in that area. Some 
 even come to Sheffield for advice, but to my knowledge 
 for the last few years, I have it in my mind that since 
 Dr. Legge's visit, I have known, officially or unofficially, 
 of no fresh case. 
 
 1167. As regards general liability of the district to 
 disease, you have given us great assistance. You have 
 nevertheless had. experience of cases ? — Yes. 
 
 1168. Do you think that you could distinguish durino 
 life a case of miner's phthisis from tubercular phthisis? 
 — Yes, sir, I think from the knowledge I have I might 
 venture to risk an opinion. 
 
 1169. In general terms ? — Yes. 
 
 1170. You would assist us very much if you would 
 give us your opinion about that?' — You want a sum- 
 mary of the course of the disease. 
 
 1171. Will you first deal with the early stage ? — The 
 early stage is differentiated from phthisis by the fact 
 that you do not get the wasting which is continuous 
 in progressive phthisis. The chief early symptom, in 
 my opinion, is anfemia, profound ansemia and increas- 
 ing shortness of breath. It may or may not be accom- 
 panied by cough, and on examination of these cases, 
 physical examination, the results are nearly always 
 negative. A man who did not know of the existence 
 of the disease might pronounce the person quite sound. 
 
 1172. A medical man ?— A medical man. That is my 
 view of the earlier stage. 
 
 1173. Do you know whether the temperature of the 
 body is affected at this stage?— I could not say 
 definitely. There are no night sweats m my opinion 
 till tuberculosis is contracted. 
 
 1174. You think the temperature might not be 
 affected— perhaps the hospital physician would tell us 
 that better?— Yes. 
 
 1175. And debility ?— Increasing debility. The path- 
 ology of the disease accounts for all the symptoms most 
 wonderfully. 
 
 1176. Perhaps you will take it next ?— I do not think 
 that I can add anything to the specimen that Dr. Legge 
 and myself took together ,and to the details published 
 in his annual report. 
 
 1177. So far as your experience goes, your descrip- 
 tion supports the details given on page 485 of the 
 Annual E^eport of the Chief Inspector of Factories for 
 1900 ?— Yes. 
 
 1177*. You would expect that, in accordance with your 
 experience? — It explains every known fact of the 
 diseasa 
 
 1178. Then, of course, if the man goes on with his 
 trade, the forecast is inevitable ? — Yes. 
 
 1179. Therefore we need not labour this point, but I 
 think it is of importance to know a littk more about 
 those cases where you have advised change of employ- 
 m-ent. Would you suggest, from your experience in 
 such a stag© as you have mentioned, where there was 
 ansemia, cought and debility, but no physical signs, 
 
 ' that a change of employment would be curative ? — Well, 
 Sir in view of the pathologieal examination I would 
 say no, but I think one could get complete arrest of the 
 disease^if one was consulted at an early stage. 
 
 1180. We d^^t, of course, suppose that the lung can 
 be SSltgsaitio integrity, but practically the man would 
 reccwer? — I^av'e a man, who when I first came to this 
 neighbourhood was turned over to me. He was on the 
 parish. I have the parish appointment. He was 
 turned over to me as an advanced case of the disease, 
 and I, naturally at the time, did not know much about 
 it, and I took rather an interest in him, and worked it 
 out a little on him, and he is living to-day, and is able 
 to knock about almost as well as I am ; and I was told 
 by my predecessor that he would probably at most live 
 a couple of years. I have had other cases that I have 
 suspected, young fellows becoming aneemic. I have told 
 them to change their employment, and they have been 
 able to work continuously. 
 
 1181. Do you mean that he changed his employment 
 and got well ? — He has never done any labouring work, 
 i.e., since his apparent recovery. 
 
 1182. It is going a little beyond my special know- 
 ledge, but do you find any difficulty, or do they find 
 any difficulty, in transferring themselves frorai one kind 
 of work to another ? — The firms in my area make a 
 point of doing it th© moment they hear that there is 
 any likelihood of a man having the disease. 
 
 1183. (Chairman.) Are you now speaking of the fac- 
 tories ? — Yes. 
 
 1184. You have nothing to do with the mines? — 
 Except incidentally when miners come to consult me. 
 
 1185. The firms, are they factory firms or mining 
 firms ? — The firms are both in my area. They will con- 
 sult m© privately, and if the firm hears that my opinion 
 is that the men should work outside the pit or sheds, 
 they find them employment outside. 
 
 1186. You have never found difficulty either with a 
 mining firm or a factory firm ? — That is so. They have 
 been treated very considerately in my experience. 
 
 1187. (Professor Alllutt.) If it is alleged that there 
 is still a substantial amount or calculable amount of 
 this ganister disease prevalent in the ganister area, 
 you would consider this, so far as it went, a very grave 
 and important matter, and you would consider that the 
 trade itself is directly responsible for it. I do not 
 mean the traders, but the occupation? — Yes, Sir, I 
 think that the occupation caaiise-s a certain amount of 
 risk. 
 
 1188. Even after these various precautions during 
 the past seven years, so completely carried out ; if 
 there is still any of this disease you would attribute it 
 to the occupation ? — Yes. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTEIAI, DISEASES. 
 
 37 
 
 1189. {Dr. Legge.) Have you the principal factory 
 and mine where ganister bricks are made in your dis- 
 trict ? — Yes. 
 
 1190. Have you works in Deepcar in your district ? — 
 No, but I have other similar works at Oughtibridge, 
 and a good many of the men who work in this occupa- 
 tion at Deepcar live in my district. 
 
 1191. Have any firm in your own district — have you 
 two, or more than two ? — I have two in my district. 
 
 1192. Have either of them ever asked you to make an 
 lexamination of the workers, to let them know what the 
 condition of the workers was ? — No. 
 
 1193. In your district of Oughtibridge, do any 
 Sheffield workmen, cutlers, or grinders, and so on, 
 reside ? — Yes, we have a few of them. 
 
 1194. Have you been consulted by them for symp- 
 toms similar to those of ganister disease ? — One similiu- 
 case was of a man who had been working in silver, some 
 branch of the silver trade, which puzzled me very much. 
 I remember also an instance of a sheepshear grinder 
 cconsulting me ; his symptoms were very similar, but he 
 had well-marked bronchial asthma in addition, a late 
 symptom, I presume. He continues to follow his em- 
 ployment. 
 
 1195. Do you know of any cases where you have 
 detected the characteristic lesions on to which the 
 tubercle bacillus has been grafted, and the man has 
 had the two together running concurrently ? Have you 
 .seen such cases ? — Most of the oases which ended fatally 
 had that historj'. 
 
 1196. Have you seen one that recovered ? — You mean 
 after the development of tubercular phthisis. No, not 
 in any case that I diagnosed as tubercular phthisis. 
 
 1197. Nor in anyone else ? — I oanoot say. 
 
 1198. Taking up now the question of the physical 
 signs presented by the disease, on percussion of the 
 -chest, are there any portions, particular areas, in the 
 lung in which you find the signs of consolidation more 
 marked than in another ? — In late cases occasionally 
 one comes across it towards the base and sides, but 
 I could not say it was 
 
 1199. Is it usual to find the consolidation in the apex 
 as in the tubercular variety ? — My experience is not 
 .sufficient for me to make a definite statement. 
 
 1200. In the very early stage, when the man has no 
 idea of giving up work, and he may have a little short- 
 3iess of breath, on auscultation, would you notice any- 
 thing particular about the breath sounds ? — That is the 
 thing which has puzzled me. I have not. I have 
 i-.lways been struck by the absence of physical sigms to 
 t-xcount for the symptoms. ' It is the first thing that 
 impressed me as to the necessity of caution in giving an 
 ■opinion on these men. 
 
 1201. Both as to percussion and auscultation? — Yes. 
 These symptoms were not accompanied by physical 
 signs to account for them, not to my examination. 
 
 1202. Tubular breathing or increased respiratory 
 sounds are not noticeable ? — The cases that I considered 
 to be early cases showed nothing on examination — on 
 physical examination — and it was that that made me 
 cautious, because I noticed that these men, although 
 they showed no physical signs to my exajnination, got 
 steadily worse. The physical signs appeared at a later 
 stage. 
 
 1203. (Professor Allbutt.) Would you say that the 
 absence of physical signs^ — the period marked by the 
 absence of physical signs — would be the period during 
 which it would be wis© and hopeful for a man to change 
 his employment ; or, when the physical signs have 
 appeared, is it too late for a man to change his employ- 
 ment ? — The truth of the matter is that — I have had 
 altogether since I have been these ten years in practice 
 — I do not think I have had twenty cases altogether. I 
 cannot pose as an authority. 
 
 1204-5. {Br. Legge.) Are you the Medical Officer of 
 Health for the district as well 1 — No. 
 
 1206. {Chairman.) Supposing that this disease to 
 which men employed in ganister works are liable were 
 placed in the Third Schedule to the Workmen's Com- 
 pensation Bill of 1906, thus rendering the eicpIojj;i: 
 liable to pay compensation to the men who got it, could 
 one say that there was any very serious difficulty in the 
 way, on the whole, of the doctors and. if necessary, a 
 ■doctor on appeal, being able to decide, with tolerable 
 justice, whether the disease from which the man was 
 suffering was or was not due to his err .ployment ? — Well, 
 
 Mr. J. 
 McLaren, 
 M.B., CM. 
 
 Sir, from my experience there would be considerable 
 difficulty in giving a definite opinion, and unfortunately 
 in the matter there is no appeal. 
 
 1207. But there is an appeal which is provided for i5No"~906 
 m the Bill ; there is an appeal in this case — that is the ^ 
 reason I put the question to you. Would you say that 
 
 there would be any very considerable difficulty in actual 
 practice in coming, on the whole, to a fair conclusion ? 
 I have gathered from you that in a good many cases 
 certainty could hardly be looked for. But some cases 
 that you knew thoroughly I presume you would feel 
 fairly certain about — a certain number ? — Yes, a cer- 
 tain number. 
 
 1208. A number of others you would feel less certain 
 about?— Yes, Sir. 
 
 1209. Ajid then, I suppose, there would be another 
 set of cases in which you would say that you feel pretty 
 certain that the phthisis was not due to ganister dust ? 
 — To a certain extent, yes ; but so far as my experience 
 goes of the disease, time is the best diagnostician. 
 
 1210. Assuming you had time, would there be a very 
 substantial difficulty in the way of doing justice on the 
 whole between the parties ; of course, individual mis- 
 takes might be made, but do you think the medical 
 profession would, on the whole, be able to do justice 
 between the parties 1 — ^Perhaps, if there was an appeal. 
 
 1211. You may assume that there is an appeal to the 
 best medical authority of the day ? — To an expert. 
 
 1212. Stipposing an expert were to come down and 
 assist, and were always available to come down ? — What 
 I would like to point out with respect to that is, that 
 they might not have the special knowledge that we in 
 the district get by daily experience. 
 
 1213. They would listen to your descriptions of the 
 diagnosis, and your reasons, and with your assistance, 
 and the assistance of the practitioners who had attended 
 the man during sickness, would it not be possible to 
 arrive with a fair degree of justice between the parties 
 at a decision as to whether on the whole the disease was 
 the result of a man's occupation or not 2 — Well, Sir, I 
 would hardly care to say. 
 
 1214. I will put my point in another way. Do you 
 represent that the difficulty — the liability to error in 
 the diagnosis — is so great that even though we knew 
 there was a certain amount of ganister phthisis, it 
 ought to stand in the wa.y of all compensation to the 
 workman ? — What I mean is, that a man who had not 
 special knowledge of the facts of the district would be 
 very much apt to put the oases dovm in the later stages 
 as ordinary phthisis. 
 
 1215. You may assume that in each case you had the 
 very best local experience, aided by the highest deduc- 
 tive knowledge that the country could obtain 1 — Then 
 
 . substantial justice would be done in most oases. 
 
 1216. The nature of the disease is such that upon the 
 whole, given the necessary conditions, you could get 
 substantial justice ? — Yes. 
 
 1217. No doubt there would be errors made, possibly 
 against the men in some cases, and in their favour in 
 others? — Most likely so. 
 
 1218. The next question is — is this a disease which 
 would lend itself to malingering ?— Yes, in the early 
 stages, I would rather say so. 
 
 1219. You think so ?— In the early stages. 
 
 1220. In that case, however, the disease would be 
 rather of a slight character ?— Yes. 
 
 1221. A man could hardly malinger to such an extent 
 as to give rise, for instance, to a claim for compensa- 
 tion in respect of total disability for life ?— No, Sir, I 
 fancy that could be avoided. 
 
 1222. Would there be a danger of a large number of 
 SHLall and insignificant claims coming forward, three 
 weeks at one tim.e, two weeks at another ? — Well, Sir, I 
 could not say. 
 
 1223. There might possibly ? — Tliere might be a few. 
 
 1224. On the other hand, if a man were found to be 
 repeatedly having some small complaint, of which the 
 preliminary symptoms agreed in a very suspicious, re- 
 laarkably suspicious, manner with phthisis, and he got 
 some weeks off for it, and got some compensation for 
 it, and did that over and over again, I puppose it would 
 be open to employers not to employ him in that form 
 of industry — the employer could protect himself froni 
 
38 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. repeated malingering by the ssume man ?— Yes, if he did 
 McLaren, not, he ought to do so. 
 
 .E^.M. 2225. Assuming that this disease were placed in the 
 
 15 Nov, KiOO Third Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation BiUof 
 
 tliis year, and that in consequence an examination of a 
 
 number of men in any particular works occurred, and 
 it were intended to suspend at once from work all those 
 who could not safely continue to work at this employ- 
 ment, would that lead, do you thirdc, to suspensions on 
 a large scale? Suppose, for instance, that an em- 
 ployer consulted a doctor and said, "Whom shall I 
 suspend amongst these hundred men," do you think, 
 that would lead to a large number of suspensions — or 
 would the medical man say, "Oh, you can let them, 
 continue their employment, as only a small number ar© 
 likely to contract the disease?"— I do not think there 
 would be any danger of the work being interferred 
 with in an event like that. 
 
 1226. That seems to follow from your view that the 
 disease is not a lery prevalent one now, whatever it 
 may have been in the past ? — Yes. 
 
 1227. But if that is so we should rather have to con- 
 clude that the inclusion of this disease in the Third 
 Schedule to the Bill is not so very formidable a matter 
 so far as employers are concerned, provided the matter 
 is worked fairly? — Yes, Sir, I should say so. 
 
 1228. (Professor Alllmtt.) Let us suppose that in 
 general practice, and in your case these cases come 
 before you in private practice rather than in official 
 practice in a fragmentary kind of way — and you and I 
 are at a disadvantage in seeing cases by bits — but now 
 supposing you had a case of this kind in a hospital 
 under your own care in the first stage, of which you 
 were speaking just now. Now you yourself gave us 
 very great assistance by saying that there would be 
 anremia, rather remarkable retention of bodily nutri- 
 tion ; there would be those two' points, and this curious 
 absence of physical signs, and there might also be in- 
 formation got from the temperature of the body, the 
 curves of temperature taken two or three times a day 
 usually in all cases, and from microscopic examination 
 of sputum. I think I should almost be audacious 
 enough to discriminate? — Oh, yes. 
 
 1229-30. I think that is Mr. Cunynghame's point of 
 view. We could get a body of opinion valuable enough 
 to discriminate ? — I was thinking there was no other 
 tribunal to appeal to. 
 
 1231. Do not think we are trying to put you in a 
 difficulty in any way — I do not suppose even the physi- 
 cians in Sheffield know as much in this matter as the 
 two or three practitioners up that valley ? — The matter 
 of appeal would only be to the physicians of the neigh- 
 bouring hospital. I was only wanting to say. Sir, that 
 the physicians in Sheffield have less, or have had less, 
 opportunity than the local practitioners up the Don 
 Valley. A few cases migjht have come to Sheffield 
 Infirm^ary, but most of them have been content to be 
 treated at home, so far as I know. 
 
 1232. (Chairman.) It does not follow necessarily that 
 the man appealed to must be a man minutely cognisant 
 of the particular disease. Very often a person to wbom 
 to appeal, who has a very distinguished general know- 
 ledge of surgery and medicine, would be a more satis- 
 factory appeal court ? — Quite so. 
 
 1233. Assuming you have the highest science to which 
 all doctors would bow? — I quite see now. I thoughlr 
 you meant men in Sheffield would be experts. 
 
 1234. I quite imagine a man up the valley would 
 know more than the greatest professor, but on appeal 
 he might like to place the question before an eminent 
 man in the profession and explain his reasons for or 
 against, and obtain a decision in that way?^My re- 
 marks were made under a misapprehension of your 
 meaning. 
 
 1235. (Professor Allbutt.) Is there always a cough at 
 the outset 1 — ^No, Sir, not always, in my experience. 
 
 1236. Does that belong to the first stage at all ?— It is 
 
 a later symptom, in my opinion. 
 
 1237. At what stage of the disease do you think 
 sputum can be obtained — at the first stage or at the 
 beginning of the second stage? It is a general ques- 
 tion ? — I would put it that you would probably be get- 
 ting sputum in the later stages, but I do not think 
 sputum is an invariable accompaniment by any means. 
 
 1238. (Chairman.) From your experience, do you 
 think that a good many cases of this disease have been 
 caused by the men themselves not being careful enough 
 in wearing respirators ? — I cannot speak as to precau- 
 tions at work, because I have had no official connection 
 with the mines, but a great many men who have died 
 of the disease have died as the result of intemperance, 
 lying out in the wet drunk, and that sort of thing. It ■ 
 has been notoriously the drunkards who have suc- 
 cumbed. 
 
 1239. (Dr. Legge.) Do you think that alcoholism 
 would assist fibroid condition of the lung to develop? 
 — No, Sir, I put it the other way. They suffer severe 
 chills, go without proper food, and it helps the onset 
 of tubercular phthisis. 
 
 1240. (Chairman.) Do you know whether, as a fact, 
 the employers have often difficulty in finding other 
 occupations for men for whom a change has been re- 
 commended? — In my district the employer has looked 
 after the men, even in the fatal cases, and supported 
 them to their death. 
 
 1241. Kindly and generously. Are you aware whether 
 or not there has been found to be difficulty by em- 
 ployers in this matter? — I can only speak for my own 
 part. I have "never heard any complaint from the men 
 that they have been treated badly. 
 
 1242. If the men were claiming compensation they 
 might themselves raise more difficulties about a change 
 of employment than they do at present ? — ^Yes. 
 
 Mr. W. M. RoBERTSHAW, M.B., CM., called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. M. 
 
 Mobertshaw, 
 
 M,B., CM. 
 
 1243. (Chairman.) You are a Bachelor of Medicine 
 of Edinburgh University? — Yes. 
 
 1244-6. You have practiced in this neighbourhood? 
 — Yes. At Stocksbridge, near Sheffield. 
 
 1247. Since what date ?— Since 1893. 
 
 1248. Have you been called in by employers to 
 examine their men occasionally? — No, not by the em- 
 ployers. 
 
 1249. Have you been employed by the men them- 
 selves ?— I have been called in in the ordinary way as 
 their family doctor. 
 
 1250. (Professor Allhutt.) You speak as a family 
 practitioner ? — Yes. 
 
 1251. (Chairman.) You have been medical officer to 
 the Stocksbridge Urban District Council since 1894?— 
 That is so. 
 
 1252. I think you also gave Dr. Birmingham some 
 details for a paper in 1899 ? — I did. 
 
 1253. And you have also given information to Sir 
 Hamilton Freer-Smith, of the Home Office, and Dr. 
 Legge, from time to time, upon this matter? — Yes, I 
 have. 
 
 1254. You have also read a paper upon the subject 
 
 of ganister miners at the British Medical Association ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1255. You have seen a good deal of this disease? — I 
 have. 
 
 1256. You have also made post-mortem examina- 
 tions in several cases of ganister disease? — I have. 
 
 1257. And you have several patients at the present 
 time suffering from this disease ? — At the present time 
 I have some half-dozen. 
 
 1258. In the first place I would ask you, you have 
 heard Dr. McLaren's evidence ? — Only the latter part 
 of it. I did not hear the whole of it. 
 
 1259. You are of opinion that it is possible for 
 medical opinion to diagnose correctly, with liability 
 to some errors in particular cases, still upon the whole 
 to diagnose this disease with a reasonable degree of 
 certainty? — That is so, if the practitioner knew the 
 history of the case ; but the physical signs and symp- 
 toms in the advanced stages are closely allied to tuber- 
 cular phthisis — he would have to have the history of 
 the case before him. 
 
 1260. To be certain ?— Yes. 
 
 1261. After death are you, with post-mortem ex- 
 aminations, better able to say? — Certainly. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 39 
 
 1262. Does the ganister dust remain in the lung 
 after death ? — It does. 
 
 1263. And is not eliminated ? — No. 
 
 1264. In the case of certain kinds of soft stone in 
 tlie lung the dust b^omes eliminated and disappears ? 
 — I could not answer that. 
 
 1265. But at all events the silica and the ganister 
 Temains? — It does, Sir. 
 
 1266. If you were to conduct a post-mortem examina- 
 tion upon a man who had died from this disease, there 
 •could be no reasonable doubt about it at all ? — That is 
 so. 
 
 1267. The microscope would tell — shall I say with 
 absolute certainty? — Yes, I think with absolute 
 certainty. 
 
 1268. Therefore as regards fatal cases, under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Bill there oo'uld be no doubt 
 arising? — I think not. 
 
 1269. And it would be impossible for a man to imi- 
 tate or simulate the disease in any way? — Yes, that 
 ia so 
 
 1270. With regard to the men at present working, 
 -suppose the duty was given to a medical man of re- 
 commending, on the ground of their liability to this 
 disease, that a number of men at present working above 
 .ground or underground should be suspended from this 
 ■employment, would the man who had to do that have 
 to suspend a considerable number of those working 
 at present or not t — I think he would. I think he would 
 have to suspend a good number if he could diagnose 
 the condition. My experience is that in its early 
 stages the condition is difficult to diagnose. The 
 jhysioal signs are not marked. A man may complain 
 •of breathlessness and may have other symptoms, but 
 -when you examine his chest the physical signs are not 
 Tnarked. I had to examine one of these workmen for 
 insurance, and this was only a matter of two years 
 "before he died, and yet in the course of my examina- 
 -tion I did not find sufficient in the physical signs to 
 Tecommend the company to reject him. 
 
 1271. Can you give us any notion of the number, for 
 instance, in a hundred that it would be necessary or 
 Tpise to suspend ? — I could not give you any notion as to 
 number.s. The matter has never been gone into, but I 
 a,m quite sure that the duration of the disease — from 
 the onset — is long, and therefore if one can really come 
 to a diagnosis, and if one wished to suspend the cas.es 
 «arly, there would be a good number that would be 
 suspended. 
 
 1272. You think tbere are now a good number that 
 ought to be suspended ? — Yes. 
 
 1275. Even in more favourable conditions of work ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1274. Then the early stages of the disease might lend 
 themselves to malingering? — Possibly; the physical 
 signs are not marked. Yes, possibly. 
 
 1275. But I suppose malingering by the men of any 
 •disease cannot be carried on long ? — Not long. 
 
 1276. He will get a week's compensation or so, but he 
 will not get much after that ? — No. My experience up 
 1x) the present is that there is no attempt at malinger- 
 ing. 
 
 1277. But of course the new Workmen's Oompensa- 
 -tion Bill has not been passed. The reasO'U might 
 -appear after that ? — I follow you. 
 
 1278. {Professor Allbuti.) When we speak of the diag- 
 nosis of a case, of cours<e that means completeness of 
 "knowledge of, its history ? — Yes. 
 
 1279. With incomplete knowledge of any subject it is 
 ■difficult to judge, and if these matters become matters 
 of importance, steps would be taken to see that know- 
 ledge was organisied and made complete ? — Quite so. 
 
 1280. If such, was the case, gradually, with the 
 growth of information, something like a clinical picture 
 ■of this disease i\ould become well known to medical 
 men. Now, it appears to me, from what I have heard, 
 that there is something characteristic about this early 
 stage in the very negation of physical signs ? — Yes, that 
 is so. In tuberculous phthisis you would have some 
 physical signs. 
 
 1231. So that a negative may be significant of posi- 
 tive evidence ? — Yes. 
 
 12B2. There are other physical signs besides auscult a- 
 tion. We have heard of a characteristic ansemiaP — 
 Yes. Sir, 
 
 1283. And shortness of breath ? — Yes, very marked. Mr. fV. M. 
 
 1284. Is that an early sign ?— Fairly early. Robertshaw, 
 
 1285. So that if you saw a man walking in the street ! .' 
 
 whom you had some reason to watch, you might form 1.5 Nov. 1906. 
 
 an opinion whether he was really short of breath or 
 
 putting it on ? — Yes. 
 
 1286. Do you think, as a matter of opinion, that the 
 shortness of breath is due to the antemia or to the lung 
 disease ? — I should say to the lung trouble. I did not 
 refer to the an£emia, because it is common in coal 
 miners as well. 
 
 1287. Therefore that it is pulmonary shortness of 
 breath is a very important point ? — Yes. 
 
 1288. Then you have got another disproportionate 
 symptom, so that you have pulmonary shortness of 
 breath due not to the heart, nor to the state of the 
 blood, but pulmo>nary in origin, a clinical picture which 
 can be somewhat definitely established ? — That is so. 
 
 1289. About this sputum. That, I think, is not an 
 early symptom. It does not appear very early ? — No. 
 
 1290. Would you say it occurred as a rule in the first 
 stage ? — Not to a marked degree. All miners expecto- 
 rate to a greater or less extent. 
 
 {Sample of sputum from a marked case produced.) 
 
 1291. If in a well-marked case — call it an advanced 
 case, if you please — if you find tuberculosis, this need 
 not necessarily disturb your diagnosis of a primary 
 fibrosis of the lung ? — By no means. 
 
 1292. The tubercle being secondary to the fibroid 
 lung ? — That was well brought out in Dr. Andrews' 
 report, 
 
 1293. In other words, this occupation may dispose to 
 tuberculosis .'' — It does. 
 
 1294-6. Is there a higher rate of tuberculosis, tuber- 
 cular phthisis, in the ganister districts than elsewhere ? 
 — One would have considerable difficulty in getting at 
 that, because for years prior to the last three or four 
 years cases of ganister disease have been certified as 
 tuberculous phthisis or phthisis, and of course it has 
 complicated the death returns altogether. 
 
 1297. And have you no personal opinion ? You have 
 no great confidence in giving a personal opinion about 
 that ? — I do not think that the district is markedly 
 above the average in the prevalence of phthisis. It may 
 be a little. Of course, statistics cannot be relied upon 
 for the reason I have mentioned, because so many of 
 these ganister cases were put down as phthisis formerly. 
 
 1298. I suppose it is true in the West Riding, of 
 which I dare say you know I have some knowledge, that 
 emphysema and bronchitis are common affections? — 
 That is so. 
 
 1299. Can you help us a little further? We have 
 been discriminating, b'etween tubercular and ganister 
 disease, and especially in early causes. Do you think it 
 would be difficult to distinguish early cases of ordinary 
 emphysema and bronchitis from ganister disease ? — 
 Well, not very easy. 
 
 1300. It would be more difficult than in phthisis? — 
 Yes. 
 
 130i. At what age is ganister disease apt to show 
 itself ? I suppose workers go in as boys ? — Yes. I can 
 give you here the ages at which several of them have 
 died, and then I can go back from that. The average 
 age, speaking roughly, is about 41 or 42 at which they 
 die. 
 
 1302. Have those men worked in the ganister mine 
 all their working lives ? — Fifteen to 25 years. 
 
 1303. Judging by the figures I have heard in this 
 hasty way — we will run oxer it quickly — would it be 
 difficult to say that the ganister disease comes on ten 
 years earlier than ordinary emphysema and bronchitis? 
 — It would be difficult to say. 
 
 1304. You cannot say it occurs a decade earlier? — 
 No. 
 
 1305. Then we are still in the face of our difficulty. 
 With regard to emphysema and bronchitis, do you 
 think microscopical examination of sputum would help 
 you ? — Not in the early stage. 
 
 1306. Do you get dilated bronchial tubes in ganister 
 disease ? — You do. You will find one of the deaths put 
 down to bronchiecstasis. 
 
 1307. Even, then very little physical signs? — That is 
 
 so 
 
40 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. W. M. 
 
 Bohsrlsha-'B, 
 
 M.B., c.:\i. 
 
 15 Nov. I90(! 
 
 1308. Aiifemia. is not very characteristic of emphy- 
 sema and bronchitis ? — No. 
 
 1309. That might be a trend of distinction. I think 
 I c^in only put it to you broadly, a peiison like yourself, 
 familiar with these people — do you think you could, 
 generally speaking, distinguish the ganister cases from 
 those common cases of winter cough with broken wind ? 
 —I should not like to say I could, oft-hand. I should 
 like to make an examination, say at intervals of six 
 months. For instance, one might find a mam in winter 
 with a marked bronchitis ; if he had that bronchitis in 
 summer I should be more inclined to the ganister 
 theory. 
 
 1310. If there is not a distinction in respect of age, 
 are there seasonal differences? — That is so. If I were 
 called upon in making the examination in an early 
 stage to differentiate between bronchitis in a miner 
 and ganister disease, I should like to examine a man 
 at the end of six months, or at any rate I should like 
 to examine him during the cold weather and during the 
 warmer w"eather. 
 
 1311. That and the early shortness of breath and the 
 bloodlessness would be the points in differentiation ? — 
 That wovdd bo so. 
 
 1312. You have founded your remarks upon patients 
 you have, or have had; is there anything more 
 about patients you bring before us which would be of 
 importance?. — No, I do not know that there is. I dare 
 say, if you would like it, I could arrange for you to see 
 some of them. I understand you are going up to 
 Deepcar. 
 
 1313. {Chairman.) We have been this morning. — I 
 dare say I could arrange for one or two to oome before 
 you in Sheffield. 
 
 (Professor AUbutt.) I should be very glad to have an 
 opportunity of examining them. 
 
 1314. (Dr. Legge.) Continuing the question of the 
 diagnosis — and I am only thinking of the stage when 
 the symptoms are so pronounced that the men begin 
 to think of consulting a medical man ; take percussion 
 of the chest, is there any part of the chest where you 
 find signs of consolidation more marked than in 
 another ? — Well, no ; but I would say this, I do not 
 think you would find signs in tflie apices as frequently 
 as you would in tubercular phthisis. 
 
 1315. I have here a paper by Dr. Baumler, a German, 
 in which, talking of these dust diseases, he lays stress, 
 in addition to the apical retraction, on the dulness to 
 be obtained by percussion of one or both edges of the 
 lungs in their upper portions. He has found this pre- 
 sent in several cases without apical consolidation, and 
 mostly in cases where there have been no fever and no 
 tubercle bacilli, and where there had been exposure to 
 dust. At times there was, in addition to emphysema, 
 dulness from the sterno-clavicular joint down the 
 sternum. Have you noticed that dulness in the sternal 
 region? — I cannot say I have. 
 
 1316. You have referred to three signs, the absence of 
 fever, the absence of hsemoptysis, and the absence of 
 night sweats ? — I have followed out this list, and I 
 mention that in the differential diagnosis of ganister 
 disease from true tubercular phthisis. You practically 
 never meet with hEemoptysis and night sweats. 
 
 1317. In the nature of the expectoration there is a 
 marked difference? — ^Yes. 
 
 1318. With the fibroid condition of the lung when 
 .they first come to you and you auscultate the chest, are 
 
 there any particular signs that you note? — Very fre- 
 quently one gets what you would almost call tubular 
 breathing. It is not exactly tubular, it is approaching 
 it, and another sign is that you very frequently get a 
 friction sound of pleurisy, pleurisy is common. 
 
 1319. Would you get this with emphysema ?— No. 
 
 1320. Would not that be a means of distinguishing 
 between emphysema and those conditions ? — Quite 
 right, it would. 
 
 1381. The inspiratory sound is prolonged ? — Yes. 
 
 1322. In a very early case a man who has worked 
 say ten years and has made no complaint at all, have 
 you examined such a patient just out of curiosity ? — ^No, 
 I cannot reply to that. I may have examined one, but 
 T do not recollect it. 
 
 1325. With regard to the vocal vibrations, have you 
 any remark to miake ? — The vocal fremitus is generally 
 increased. 
 
 1324. Is it increased in emphysema ? — No. 
 
 1325. That would be another point ?— Another point, 
 yes. 
 
 1326. Would you mention the number of post- 
 mortem examinations that you have made ?— I think it 
 is six. 
 
 1327. When I saw you in 1899 I think you had only 
 made one? — That is so. 
 
 1328. Have the appearances been similar ?— Yes. 
 
 1329. To those described ?— Yes. 
 
 1330. Is that particular specimen I remember therfr 
 was no signs of tubercle whatever ? — No. 
 
 1331. To the naked eye ?— No. No sign at all by the 
 naked eye. 
 
 1332. And only very slight on microscopical examina- 
 tion, and therefore it differed in that respect from the 
 diagram illustrated there {produced), which came from 
 another specimen ? — Yes. 
 
 1333. In these other lungs that you have been able 
 to examine, were they like the condition you had at 
 first or like this, was tubercle added to it or not ? — I 
 wish I had the reports here. In a certain number there 
 were some signs of tubercle. 
 
 1334-5. But there were nodules, fibrotic nodules in 
 all the cases ? — In all cases. 
 
 1336. In the examinations of sputum for tubercle 
 bacilli, was more than one examination made in each 
 cas€' ? — Yes, the name of the patient is given, and you 
 will find the same name recurring. 
 
 1337. I know you hold the view that this condition, 
 may prove fatal without tubercle being. added to it? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1338. Do you still adhere to that ? — ^Yes, I do. 
 
 1339. But still you would agree that if they left off 
 work before the disease was far advanced it would 
 become stationary? — Yes, I know a particular case,, 
 wliere the man left work, I forget how many years ago,, 
 but he is able tO' follow certain outdoor employment 
 now, and I am pretty certain in my own mind that if 
 he had gone on working in the mine he would have 
 died. 
 
 1340. It does not necessarily kill ? — I think he will 
 ultimately die of it. He is bad now. He is under 
 treatment at the present time. 
 
 1341. As a result of the condition ? — Yes, he suffers 
 from chronic pleurisy. He has emphysema. 
 
 1342. Is he free from tubercle ? — I am not quite sure.. 
 I thinlc I may say he is free from tubercle, but I have 
 not the report there of any sputum. 
 
 1343. You are Medical Officer of Health for the dis- 
 trict? — I am. 
 
 1344. Are there many people obtaining relief under 
 the Poor Law at the present time on account of this 
 disease? — ^A good many. 
 
 1345-6. You have no figures ? — I can get that. I 
 happen to be on the Board of Guardians. 
 
 1347. {Chairman.) Should we be able, in the figures 
 you were going to give, to know that the cases were 
 cases of ganister disease? — I would only put down 
 those that I consider so. 
 
 1348. You could put down those that you consider so. 
 It would not be proof, it would be a matter of 
 opinion ? — I thinUi; it is correct. 
 
 1349-50. The disease is partly due to a past state of 
 things which is passing away — the works are getting 
 much more healthy ? — There is no doubt that the mine 
 is much more healthy. The ventilation is much im- 
 proved, and I think already some result, some beneficial 
 result, has followed. 
 
 1351. Even within a year? — Not a year. The mine 
 has been better ventilated for five years. 
 
 1352. Have you been able to complete that table 
 which you furnished me with ? — ^Yes. 
 
 1353. That ought to show us whether there has been 
 that improvement ? — ^It varies. This table left off in 
 190O. I will read out the continuation of it. In 1901, 
 two deaths, J. C. J. and W. H., miners' phthisis was 
 the cause of death in J.'s case, and phthisis in that of 
 W. H. 's, but he was a ganister grinder, and I think there 
 is little doubt that he died of ganister trouble. In 
 1902, four deaths— (E. C, 43, ganisteir grinders' 
 disease; W. J., 60, ganister miner, ganister disease. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 41 
 
 1354. Because a man has worked twenty-one years 
 in a ganister mine you would not necessarily say that 
 his death from consumption must be attributed to 
 .ganister phthisis, would you ? — I think so. 
 
 1355. Under present conditions as well as past ? — 
 Under present condRtions. I do not think it is possible 
 for a man to work in there for twenty-one years without 
 getting this fibrosis. 
 
 1356. You would go so far as that ? — I do not think 
 it is possible. 
 
 1357. Even with the wet process that now prevails ? 
 — Do you mean the water in the drilling ? 
 
 1358. And the improved wet grinding instead of dry 
 ^grinding? — I was refering more to the mine. In the 
 mine the greatest amount of dust occurs after the blast- 
 ing, and I think it is an undoubted fact that men com- 
 mence to work before that dust has subsided. I cannot 
 say from personal experience. I have never been down 
 -the mine at all, but I have had very frequent conversa- 
 tions with the men who work there. 
 
 1359. I suppose that could be prevented by more pro- 
 iuse watering, a regular spray of water until the dust 
 was allayed and washed out of the material to be 
 "brought up ? — I do not think that can be prevented 
 altogether. After the explosion, I am under the im- 
 pression that there is an enormous amount of dust 
 which you could not deal with in that way. 
 
 (Mr. Longhotham.) He ie asserting a matter in con- 
 nection with mining that I should very much hesitate 
 -tO' do'. As. a matter of fact, the men are not there 
 when the explosion takes place. The men are bound 
 under the Mines Regulations Act to be out of the 
 place when the shot is fired, and, therefore, they are 
 ■not there when the dust is held up in suspension. 
 
 1350. (Chairman.) The doctor was expressing an 
 opinion about the danger of the work. They are cer- 
 tainly out of the mine or the particular place, but 
 they have to go in to deal with the result of the ex- 
 plosion ; and do you say that they would go in — that 
 "by the time they went in, the dust would be entirely 
 gone? 
 
 (Mr. Longhotham.) The dust would have subsided. 
 It is heavy. It is granular dust, which very readily 
 sinks to the bottom. 
 
 1361. (Dr. Legge.) With regard to those deaths of 
 miners due to lung disease, are there included miners 
 who have died of pneumonia ? — I have not included 
 pneumonia. This is not a complete list of miners who 
 have worked in ganister who have died. It is a list 
 of miners who have worked in ganister who, I think, 
 Iiave died from ganister disease. 
 
 1362. Are those copies of the death certificates ? — 
 Yes. Here I include bronchitis and emphysema, be- 
 cause I thought that was reasonable ; I included one of 
 heart disease. 
 
 1363. Are those gathered from other districts outside 
 your own ? — No. 
 
 1364. You have cited one from Sheffield? — That is 
 included in our returns, being a death at the Sheffield 
 Tnfirmary, but from our district. 
 
 1365. We have heard that a number of workmen in 
 the Deepcar district reside at Oughtibridge ? — ^Yes, and 
 some in Sheffield. 
 
 1366. You do- not include them ? — No-. 
 
 1367. So those figures are not complete in that re- 
 spect? — They are only the deaths in Stockbridge Urban 
 District. 
 
 1368. Apart from that, have you any knowledge that 
 workers living outside Deepcar have died of sypmptoms 
 due to the illness ; has it come to your knowledge ? — 
 Yes, it has come to my knowledge. 
 
 1369. From what you say as to the inevitability of 
 the disease, do you think that a limit to the duration 
 •of work is desirable ? — I think it would be. 
 
 1370. Do you think, also, that a periodical examina- 
 tion of the workers at six-monthly intervals would be 
 Tiseful in helping the management to eliminate those 
 who were liable to develop pronounced symptoms ? — I 
 think that would be useful. 
 
 1371. What do you think would be the best name for 
 the disease? — ^Well, it was named ganister disease in the 
 paper that Dr. Birmingham read before the Sanitary 
 Institute, and that covers both the miners and the 
 surface workers. I do not think that name could be 
 very well beaten. 
 
 419 
 
 1372. That list is a list of deaths from lung disease Mr. W. M. 
 from ganister workers in the district? — There is a Rohirtshaw 
 ganister miner who worked elsewhere. M.B., c.M. 
 
 1373. It does not distinguish between the surface 15 Tu-n^Torva 
 workers and the miners ? — It does to some extent, be- ' 
 cause I put down here "ganister grinder," and 
 
 " ganister miner." 
 
 1374. Are there any brick-setters ? — No, I do not 
 think there are. They have not described their work 
 to that extent. 
 
 1375. Have you treated cases where there was fibroid 
 condition and the tubercular condition both present? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1376. Have you known of any recovery, any marked 
 improvement in those conditions ? — I cannot say that I 
 have. 
 
 1377. (Professor Allhuit.) I would like to take you to 
 some other passages in your precis of evidence. The 
 difficulty of discrimination lies between tuberculous 
 phthisis and the ganister phthisis? — Yes. 
 
 1378. Therefore in respect of the questions I asked 
 you in reference to chronic bronchitis, you say that is 
 not often a matter of difficulty? — That is the great 
 difficulty between this and phthisis. 
 
 1379. Unfortunately it so happens we have many 
 more points of diagnosis, have we not ? — Yes. 
 
 1380. Then I should like just to carry forward a 
 question of Mr. Cunyngname. He said " Surely thers 
 is a normal incidence of phthisis in all occupations " ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 1381. And I understand you to say you eliminated 
 this fraction because that a man has worked in the 
 mine for so many years is no proof that he is not still 
 liable like other people to phthisis ? — No, oh, no. 
 
 1382. You do not say that? — ^My point is this 
 
 1383. We must allow for the normal incidence of 
 phthisis in every occupation? — Yes. My opinion is 
 this : if a man works for fifteen or twenty years in a 
 ganister mine, I think it is impossible for him not to 
 suffer from fibrosis, and therefore one is justified in 
 putting that down as the primary cause of death. 
 
 1384. That is putting the thing the other way. You 
 would not say that no ganister miner dies of tuber- 
 culous consumption? — No. 
 
 1386. It looks rather like that ? — That is not my feel- 
 ing at all. I have got here a list showing the years 
 worked and duration of incapacitation. In this case 
 there are only about three who worked nine years. 
 All the others worked over nine years in ganister. 
 
 1386. They seem to have been mostly a long time at 
 it?— That is so. 
 
 1387. Your average age is open to this criticism, that 
 the extremes are very wide. One died quite early, and 
 the other died at sixty or seventy ? — Nobody at seventy ; 
 sixty-five — that was the man, a ganister breaker. 
 
 1388. There was one who was quite young? — Thirty- 
 seven. 
 
 1389. Was that the youngest? — I do not think there 
 is anybody younger. Oh, yes, one was thirty-four. 
 
 1390. If you have extremes, if the extremes are wide 
 apart, your average is not much good? — The majority 
 are somewhere about the forties. 
 
 1391. It is better for us to take that. The character- 
 istic sputum, it comes too late for diagnosis ? — That 
 is so. 
 
 1392. It is of no use to you for diagnosis? — No. 
 
 1393. There is one other point, the length of the first 
 stage ? — ^Yes. 
 
 1394. Relatively long?— Yes. 
 
 1395. Did I understand you to say that it is never- - 
 theless incurable? — Dr. Legge's question was 
 
 1396. I thought you were speaking of any stage — 
 even in the first stage is it incurable ? — Oh, no, I 
 would not say so. Dr. Legge's question was whether 
 the combination of ganister and tubercular phthisis 
 was fatal. 
 
 1397. In the first stage it might be curable ? — Yes, it 
 is hopeful. 
 
 1398. Then came Dr. Legge's question as to periodical 
 examinations ? — ^Yes. 
 
 1399. Would you say that the first stage may be 
 
 F 
 
42 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 Mr. W. M. * loiig one, extending over many times six months ? — 
 Robertshmt; Yes, certainly. 
 M.B., CM. 1400. And is a curable condition ?—Thei'e is a possi- 
 
 15 N^906. ^''I'^y °^ ^"'^^^- 
 
 1401. Especially if the o<:cupation be changed ? — 
 
 Yes. 
 
 1402. If the occupation be changed at a later stage 
 then you would say that the life is iDermanently 
 deteriorated even if the man should change his occu- 
 pation? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 1403. (Chaifman.) The opinion yoiT gave, that a man 
 could not work more than twenty years in the ganister 
 works without disease, only applies to a mine, not to 
 a ganister grinding factory ? — As the ganister grinding 
 used to bs done it would apply to that. As it is done 
 now, I should not like to say that. I should not 
 like to say there is no chance for him. 
 
 1043*. That statement might be possibly met by the 
 production of a man who had as a fact worked twenty 
 years — between twenty and thirty years-— in a mine? — 
 I should like to see him. I do not doubt that such a 
 man might be produced, but I do not think it possible 
 that he would not show signs of disease. 
 
 1404. You are speaking of a ganister miner. When 
 you come to grinding on the surface, you would not 
 make the same statement? — No. 
 
 1405. You ai-e therefore still of opinion that at the 
 present time working in a ganister mine is not an 
 occupation that a mam ought to spend the whole of his 
 life at? — I think he ought not. 
 
 1406-7. What is the number of years you would prefer 
 to put as a limit to work in a ganister mine? — I do 
 not think I could answer that. 
 
 1408. Would it be better that the men should work 
 in the mine at the younger or the older stage? Is 
 there anything in the system which would render them 
 less likely to take it from a certain age, thirty-five, 
 than when they were twenty ? — I should say that> if a 
 man went into a mine, say when he had got to middle 
 life, his chances would be better than if he went in as 
 a youth. 
 
 1409. Would it be possible to avoid the dangers you 
 speak of by alternating periods, say a year down in the 
 mine and a year at some profession where you had no 
 dust, and back to the mine again? — I think that would 
 bs an advantage. 
 
 1410. In your view, it would be almost essential that 
 there should be some limitation, I do not mean neces- 
 sarily statutory limitation, but in practice some limita- 
 tion to the period of work underground, or else some 
 alternation of it, unless all the men are to die of 
 ganister? — Quite so. 
 
 1411. As a matter of fact, do a great many men 
 spend twenty years in the ganister works, or do they 
 change their occupations ? — A good many men have 
 fcpent twenty years in the past. 
 
 1412. Since, however, attention has been called to 
 this disease, I suppose there are less. The men's 
 attention has been rather called to the care of their 
 health ?— Yes ; but I do not think they study it by any 
 means sufficiently, and they stick on at the mining. 
 The majority of them do. In this list I have men 20, 
 25, 21, 20, 27 — this is showing the number of years 
 worked by forty-seven of these men, of miners and 
 grinders. 
 
 1413. Of the men whom you have examined? — Most 
 of them are dead. 
 
 1414. An arbitrary list of men you have known ?— 
 I have not known them. I have looked up the lists. 
 
 1415. What lists ?— The lists of deaths. 
 
 1416. Those men are all from the parochial returns ? — 
 Most of them from the Registrar's returns. One or 
 two of them are living in the Stocksbridge Urban dis- 
 trict. Mr. Bettany sent me a request that I would 
 find the number of years the men have worked in the 
 ganister trade, and also the length of incapacitation 
 involved by the disease, and this is the result. 
 
 1417. These are all deaths ? — No ; some of them are 
 living. This column shows the number of years they 
 have been incapacitated. 
 
 1418. Did these men all die at the infirmary ? — Most 
 of them at home. 
 
 1419. Was there any post-mortem examina-tion in 
 majiy of these cases ? — Yes, in the cases I have marked 
 (marlcing cases in list). 
 
 1420. Those are certainties .P — Yes. 
 
 1421. (Dr. Lcgge.) In any case where you have sus- 
 pected this disease and had a post-mortem 'examina- 
 tion, have you ever failed to find it ? — No, oh, no. 
 
 1422. (Professor Allbutt.) You were right in all those 
 cases ? — Yes. 
 
 1423. (Chairman.) Is this a very skilled occupation, 
 or where a man could change from this to something 
 else ? One of the cases was of a man engaged in clay 
 work; how did he get ganister? — He would not get 
 ganister disease ; but the fire-clay might give rise to> 
 dust disease of so closely allied a nature that I thought, 
 it wise to include that. 
 
 1424. There is some silica in the fire-clay, but we' 
 ought perhaps to exclude that case ? — Certainly. I 
 may say, however, that this man was certified by 
 another doctor as dying from fibrosis of the lung. 
 
 1425-7. (Professor Allbutt.) 1 may interpolate the 
 question — are they to be taken in respect of alcohol, 
 pretty much on an average with other trades? — I do 
 not think they drink more than the average workmen ; 
 but I think that in that particular district of Stocks- 
 bridge and Deepcar possibly some of the workmeni 
 higher up the valley are exceptionally temperate, and 
 therefore apparently these men are perhaps not so> 
 temperate. 
 
 1428. (Chairman.) On the other hand, it may be fair 
 to say that the men who have succumbed may be 
 themselves abnormally alcoholic. You or the last wit- 
 ness said that was a possibility, and a cause of their 
 more early succumbing. The fatal cases I presume 
 would, on the average, contain a larger proportion of 
 alcoholic ones. It seems to follow almost as a necessary 
 conclusion ?— Yes. Of course, they do not do that 
 during the latter part of the time. They cannot afford 
 it ; they have not the means. They are off work for 
 periods varying between one and six years. 
 
 1429. I am speaking of the period just before they 
 get off work, the cause that gets them off ? — Quite so, 
 
 1430. (Professor Allbutt.) The alcohol makes them 
 more vulnerable ? — Yes. 
 
 1431. (Chairman.) And it is only fair to say that a 
 certain number of those fatal cases have been assisted 
 by alcohol ? — Yes. 
 
 1432. (Professor Allbutt.) And then we might say, is 
 that liability higher amongst ganister miners than 
 amongst average miners? — No. 
 
 1433. Supposing an insurance oflSce were insuring 
 two men, one in ganister and the other not, are you 
 able to give us any conception of the difference of 
 premium that they would feel compelled to charge a» 
 to lives that were otherwise equal ? — I do not think 
 that matter has been dealt with. The men have their 
 insurance. They are insured for small sums, and for 
 a mere £10 or £15. If the man is healthy at 'the time 
 when he is examined, I do not suppose a report would 
 be made to the insurance company that he is working 
 in ganister. 
 
 1434. Have you any figures in your mind? If you 
 were forced to make a calculation, could you get them 
 out, or do you think it is too doubtful ?— I could not 
 answer that ; but I can say this, that I happen to be 
 surgeon to the Order of Druids, and I recommended the 
 Druids and the Rechabites to exclude altogether from 
 their membership any who do work in a ganister mine. 
 
 1435. Did the Rechabites adopt this advice ? I can- 
 not say that it has been rigidly carried out, but they 
 quite agreed with the necessity of doing something of 
 that kind. It has been a drain on the clubs. 
 
 1436. They considered that there was an appreciable 
 extra risk ? — That is so. 
 
 1437. Then this kind of liability to this illness is one 
 which seems to- me singularly capable— if it could be 
 dealt with— of being dealt with by some good form of 
 insurance, and if the Workmen's Compensation Act 
 provides it, some form of joint insurance would be the 
 best way of dealing with it, if it were possible to do 
 it ? — I should think so. 
 
 1438. So as to avoid disputes as to the true origin of 
 these, diseases. You have had experience of insurance 
 work. Would it be a great, onerous task upon em- 
 ployers if an Act were brought in to provide for com- 
 pensation being payable to those workers who were 
 incapacitated by ganister disease?— I do not know how 
 these matters are worked, and I could scarcely answer 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 43 
 
 "that question. These are the number of men who have 
 -died annually of this disease— 4, 5, 2, 4. 
 
 1439. But that is not a very large number amongst 
 those who have worked. That is decidedly small? — 
 
 Yes, quit© so. There are otliem who have died out- 
 ride ; but, taking •this as a standard, I should think 
 
 that the burden would not be intolerable. 
 
 1440. That is very elastic. I suppose we cannot get 
 to anything like figures ? — I am afraid not. 
 
 1441. (Chairman.) I should like to ask whether the 
 ■certificates of death are signed by yourself ? — Some of 
 them. 
 
 1442-3. The majority of them ? — I could not answer 
 that off-hand. It is possible they may be. I have a 
 moderate practice up there, and it is possible they may 
 
 1444. Supposing, at present, you saw a number of 
 men who had been working down in a mine, say 14 or 
 15 years P — Yes. 
 
 1445. Would you expect to find ganister disease to a 
 •certain extent amongst them ? — I would. 
 
 1446. In all of them ?— Yes. 
 1447-8. In all?— I would. 
 
 1449. You go as far as that? — ^If they had worked in 
 a ganister mine for an unbroken 15 years. 
 
 1450. To what extent ? — I should not expect to find 
 it so that the man. was incapacitated, but I should 
 •expect that a skilled medical man would find un- 
 doubted signs of fibrosis. 
 
 1459-60. Did these three deaths cut of 350 — were 
 they probably or possibly ganister deaths ? — I think they 
 would be more advanced than others? — ^Yes. 
 
 1452-3. (Chairman.) In these bad cases which you 
 mentionied, for how long a time were the persons 
 affected incapacitated? — One had been off work for 
 two years, another had been oflf work for five years, 
 another a quarter of a year. I am not able to 
 ■speak frO'm memory as to the remaining three. 
 
 1454. Of two men normally like one another, working 
 under the same conditions, I suppose you would not 
 say that they would necessarily exhibit each of them 
 
 signs of fibroid phthisis at the same period, after the jjf,.. jp_ j|f_ 
 same period of work ?— Quite so. They would vary. Bobertshaw, 
 
 1455. According to the strength of the man?— But m.b., cm. 
 I do say that I should expect to find it in any man ta , . ^ ,q,,„ 
 some extent after 30 years. My opinion respecting the " 
 number of years in which a man would be likely to 
 
 exhibit signs of ganister disease is derived from my 
 particular district. I have no right to speak of other 
 districts. Ganister differs in quality, so I am told. I 
 had better say that. 
 
 1456. Now, as to the number of men affected com- 
 pared with the number employed ?— This is a difficult 
 problem to solve, because a considerable number of 
 men at present working are to some extent affected 
 with the disease. I may say that at present there are 
 employed at one of the works about 200 men and boys 
 above ground and 150 in the mine. At the present 
 time I know personally of six former workmen of this 
 firm who are incapacitated. Of these, four were sur- 
 face workmen and the two others worked in the mine. 
 Accepting these figures as a standard, this would give 
 the number of incapacitated men, compared with the 
 number of employed, as 1-7 per cent. , but these figures 
 would need correcting on the side of the incapacitated, 
 as there may be men who are incapacitated who are 
 unknown to me, either because they live in some other 
 district — for I may say that a considerable number of 
 these workers live in the neighbouring villages, and 
 some even in Sheffield — or because living here they are 
 under the treatment of some other medical man or 
 hospital. The deaths for this year so far, excluding ' 
 that man who was a clay grinder and who, therefore, 
 you thought should perhaps be excluded, are three. 
 
 1457. Three out of 350 ?— Three out of 350. 
 
 1458. 1 per cent ? — 75 per cent. 
 
 1459. Did these three deaths out of 350 — were they 
 probably or possibly ganister deaths ? — I think they 
 were. I can give you from :m..emory who certified 
 these. Here is one, T. B., ganister miner, ganister 
 miner's disease, certified by Dr. Mossman. C. H., 
 sixty-five, ganister grinder, fibroid phthisis — that was 
 certified by my ooUeaaue, Dr. Robertson ; and J. K. , 
 fifty-six, ganister worker, gainister disease, that was 
 also certified by Dr. Robertson. Therefore it is not 
 three out of 350. None of these were certified by me. 
 Dr. Robertson is my assistant. 
 
 SIXTH DAY. 
 
 Friday, IQth Noverubsr 1906. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Henry Ctjnynghame, c.b. 
 Professor Clifford Allbutt, f.r.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettany (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Simeon Snell, f.r.c.s., l.r.c.p., called, and examined. 
 
 1461. (Chairman.) Mr. Simeon Snell, I think 
 r.E.C.S., Edinburgh ?— Yes, Edinburgh. 
 
 1462. I think you are ophthalmic surgeon to the 
 Sheffield Royal Infirmary 1—1 am. 
 
 1463. And Professor of Ophthalmology at the Sheffield 
 University, and I think you have written some books, 
 iave you not, on various topics ? — Yes. 
 
 1464. And amongst others one upon miners' nystag- 
 mus and several papers ?— Yes. 
 
 1465. You have studied this particular subject for 
 .over thirty years ?— Yes. 
 
 1466. I suppose it is in your capacity as ophthalmic 
 ' aurgeon that the matter has come to your notice ?— Yes- 
 
 419 
 
 1467. And you have seen a good many cases ?— A very 
 large number. 
 
 1468. You have visited collieries and examined the. 
 men there?- -I have. 
 
 1469. And have also seen a targe number of patients 
 who have been suffering from the disease? — 1 should 
 think more than a thousand. 
 
 1470. Those are men ? — l''e3. 
 
 1471. (Professor Allbutt.) Affected, you mean ?— Yes. 
 
 1472. (Chairman.) What first attracted your atten- 
 tion to this particular disease. I understand that it has 
 been diagnosed a,nd examined by you more than by any- 
 body else ? — I think so, as far as England is concerned. 
 
 F 2 
 
 Mr. 8. Snell, 
 
 F.R.C.S., 
 L.R.C.P. 
 
 16 Nov. 1906. 
 
4-i 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr S. Snell, U73. WTiat first attracted your attention ?— My atten- 
 F.R.u.s., tion was first attracted to the acquisition of it by the 
 L.E.c.p. fact that men coming under one's observation belonged 
 
 ^ to a class who had to perform their work lying more or 
 
 16 Not. 1936. jggg gn their sides. After that 1 went down a mine and 
 made myself familiar with the working of a co^il mine. I 
 then found that the work pursued by others under- 
 ground necessitated the same strained position of head 
 and eyes as did that of the coal getter when lying on 
 his side and under-cutting the coal. 
 
 1474. Do you mean that it is the lying on one side that 
 afi"ects the muscles, and produces this disease 1 — These 
 men that I spok e of first were all coal getters whose 
 work necessitated their lying on one side or the other 
 to get the coal. 
 
 1475. Do you mean that persons who spend a large 
 portion of their lives lying on their sides in getting coal 
 would get it 1. — In under-cutting (holing) the coal the head 
 is thrown back and the eyes are directed upwards. 
 
 1476. (Professor Allhutt.) Would the witness begin by 
 saying on account of what discomfort or symjjtom the 
 miners first came to him 1 Coal getters throwing back 
 the head and directing the eyes upwards ? — More 
 or less obliquely — more or less obliquely upwards. 
 A miner comes under treatment because he com- 
 plains of giddiness, but usually the most prominent 
 symptom is that he notices that _ everything dances 
 in front of his eyes. I first noticed that the men 
 under observation were men ail doing one kind _ of 
 work, necessitating lying on the side and directing 
 their eyes upwards. Then I became familiar with the 
 mine, and I found that in other occupations under- 
 ground, in fact, most occupations, there was the same 
 sort of affection in men who did not lie on their sides, 
 but were engaged in occupations which involved a more 
 or less similar position of the head and eyes. 
 
 1477. There might be other men ? — There are other 
 men. I have brought you a man to show you who does 
 not lie on his side. 
 
 1478. Are there any persons who lie in that attitude 
 except the coal-getters ?— No. 
 
 1479. This position is observed only by the coal 
 getters 1 — Yes. As to the others, as one became more 
 familiar with the working of a coal mine, one noticed 
 that there were other men in the pit who were com- 
 pelled by their work to put their head and eyes more or 
 less in the same position as a coal getter, although they 
 
 were not lying on their sides. That is a great deal the 
 consequence of low working- places, the lowness of the 
 roofs. 
 
 1480. Due to low roofs 1— Yes. If a road is 4 feet 
 6 inches high and the man is 5 feet 8 inches high or 
 even only over 5 feet, he has always to be walking along: 
 in a stooping position (making a movement in illus- 
 tration) and his eyes are directed above the horizontal 
 line. 
 
 1481. That is like the overlooker, the picture in your 
 book ?— Yes, the deputy. Of those working underground,, 
 the greatest proportion will be coal getters. In my 
 district from 20 to 30 per cent, of those working at the 
 coal face will be engaged in coal getting and holing. 
 {Witness produced several photographs of miners at 
 ■work.) 
 
 1482. (Professor Allbutt.) Now, you have shown us 
 the photographs upon which your observations are going 
 to be based. Will you go on giving us in such order as. 
 you think fit your further remarks? — My observations- 
 led me to conclude that the cause of this miners' nystag- 
 mus was the position in which the eyes were cast for 
 long periods together, inducing a weariness in what we: 
 call the elevator muscles analagous to fatigued condi- 
 tions in other muscles like writers' cramp — and others. 
 
 1483. And wry neck ?— Yes. And then, also in support 
 of this, these miners suiior from other muscle troubles. 
 A man with miner's nystagmus will frequently exhibit 
 a sort of thrill in the head if the hand is placed on it. 
 In other cases there is a very marked tremor of the 
 head. You can see it — and there are tremors of the 
 muscles producing torticollis. 
 
 1484. Might I take it practically that all persons 
 
 working in narrow places, even overlookers '/ — I am' 
 
 coming to the deputies. It applies to the whole system. 
 of working in mines, to the pony boys who push the- 
 trucks along, and so on, as is seen when once the whole 
 working of the mine is grasped. The deputies suffer 
 occasionally, and the onsetter who works in a good light 
 at the bottom of the pit, and who is constantly watching 
 the cage ascend or descend. I have said nothing about 
 the frequency of these oscillations. They may be 100 
 or more in a minute. I have seen them as frequent as- 
 300 or 350. 
 
 1485. The oscillations vary 1— They may be 100 to 150 
 a minute, and I have known them as much as 300. 
 
 John Peeston, called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. 1486. (Mr. Snell.) Why did you come to me on Tues- 
 
 Preston. day'! — Because I could not go on with my work on 
 
 account of my eyes, because of the staggering. I had 
 
 only been there about nine months. 
 
 1487. You came to me because you could not do your 
 work, and the reason was because you noticed everything 
 dancing and jumping before you ?— Yes. 
 
 1488. When you were working especially ? — Yes. 
 
 1489. Did you suffer from giddiness at your work 1 — 
 Sometimes ; not always, but my eyes were going like 
 this with the light. 'The light was behind me, and the 
 work above me. 
 
 1490. (Chairman.) What work was the witness doing ? 
 —Ripping. 
 
 1491. What were you saying about the work above 
 you 1 — I was looking above me all the time. 
 
 1492. How long had you been ripping ?— Since last 
 March. 
 
 1493. What were you doing previously ?— In a thin 
 coal seam. 
 
 1494. Holing 1 — They were machine got coals. 
 
 1495. Electric machine or air 1—Air machine. 
 
 1496. Were you working where there was room for 
 you to stand upright with the machine ?— No. Where 
 I worked, it was about 2 feet 9 inches. I filled the coal 
 after the machine had got it. 
 
 1497. You do not work the coal yourself 1 — No. 
 
 (Mr. Snell.) This man's work was ripping, or stone 
 work ?— Yes. 
 
 1498. Above where the coal is to be got, he has to rip 
 the dirt off— stonework 1— Yes. 
 
 1499. What height are you 1 — Five feet 6 and a half 
 jnches. 
 
 1500. (Chairman.) What height is the place you have- 
 got to work in ? — In the bank where I work it is 5 feet 
 6 inches, floor to roof, and it lowers from 5 feet or 5 feet 
 6 inches, the height to start with, and as you go along: 
 you rip it 2 feet. 
 
 1501. What is the height of the place you were mostly- 
 in 1 — Five feet it starts with, and there are 2 feet of 
 ripping. 
 
 1502. You are 5 feet 6 inches high and you work a 
 place 5 feet? — Yes. 
 
 1503. (Chairman.) Then you begin work with thfr 
 head down ? 
 
 (Mr. Snell.) It is a 6 foot gauge from side to side. As- 
 they shift up in the face, in the bank, as they get th& 
 coal out of the bank, they shift up from time to time 
 and that leaves a certain amount of ripping — as a rule 
 two yards it is — and they send two men there to do that 
 With a start there is a 2 foot face of ripping and a lot of 
 bottom left, and they finish at 7 feet as a rule and a little 
 more sometimes. 
 
 1504. (Chairman.) The part you have to rip off is 2 feet 
 thick ?— Yes. 
 
 1505. (Chairman.) Now we want you to say when you 
 first began to feel troubled with your eyes ? 
 
 1506. (Professor Allbutt.) You were working 5 feet 
 and putting out 2 feet more. You were working over 
 your own head ? — Yes.. 
 
 1507. While you are doing this you are standing up all 
 the time ? — ^You are not bent at all. 
 
 1508. (Mr. Snell.) Are you looking up the whole time 
 you are working ? — Yes. 
 
 1509. That is to see the roof where your tool is going 
 to strike. Your eyes are directed upwards towards the 
 roof all the time 1 — Yes. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 45 
 
 1510. {Chairman.) When did you— you began to work 
 in March —when did you first begin to feel at all un- 
 comfortable? — Four months ago, and I gradually got 
 worse. 
 
 1511. Four months ago— that would be about July ?— 
 Yes. • 
 
 1512. About July what did you feel, what did you feel 
 about four months ago 1 — First time I noticed it, I was 
 turning round to my light, and I could not see it at all. 
 
 1513. Turning your head to the light, you noticed that 
 you could not see 1 — Yes. 
 
 1514. Anything else did you notice ? — When I was 
 striking my wedge, I could see a lot of wedges. 
 
 1515. You could see, but saw a lot of wedges, all con- 
 fused before you ?— Yes. 
 
 1516. Did you go to a doctor?— I kept playing a day 
 now and again to see if it would get better. I thought 
 it was gradually getting worse, so I went to the doctor. 
 
 1517. AVhat month ? — A week last Monday. 
 
 1518. You went on trying to work for some two or 
 three months ?— Yes. 
 
 1519. Did you earn a full day when you were trying 
 to work 1 — I was getting my full wages. 
 
 1520. It is day work 1 — I work for a contractor. 
 
 1521. You were getting your full pay ? You went on 
 and did you find yourself getting worse ?— Yes. 
 
 1522. How many days have you been off work, unable 
 to earn during the last four months or so ? I think you 
 said you were getting full wages ? — I got wages for my 
 day's work. 
 
 1523. You only got wages for your day's work. How 
 many days were you off in consequence of this after 
 you first began ? — About ten. 
 
 1524. About ten days in consequence of your eyes 
 being bad?— I am not sure just to the day. 
 
 1525. Koughly you missed about ten days' work after 
 June ? — Yes. 
 
 1526- Then about three weeks ago you felt so bad 
 that you went and consulted a doctor ? — No, Sir, a week 
 last Monday I went to the doctor. 
 
 1527. I see. You still had the same feelings ? — Yesi 
 Sir. 
 
 1528. Do you feel those sensations when you are not in 
 the mine now ? — When I sit down my eyes swim. {The 
 witness sat down in a chair, but hastily rost.) When I 
 sit down in the light my eyes swim. 
 
 1529. When the light strikes you direct ? — Yes. 
 
 1530. Would a light overhead strike you more than 
 ny other light ?— If I look up at a light I feel bad. 
 
 1531. Do you mind looking at a light below you ? — I 
 have not been that way this last fortnight, but when I 
 was working, looking down after looking at the light so 
 much, my eyes seemed to burst. 
 
 1532. Looking downwards, you feel it too, do you ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1533. You feel it looking downwards ?— Yes. 
 
 1534. Looking downwards also you feel a certain 
 amount ? — In the mine looking down is just as bad as 
 looking up. 
 
 1535. You feel just as bad looking down as up ? 
 — It_ came after working at the hammer and wedge 
 all night upto then — then I had to start and stoop and 
 shift the dirt, and it was just as bad then as when I 
 was looking up above. 
 
 1536. Looking steadily at the light for some time also, 
 that hurts you, is that so ? — Yes. In the pit the light 
 was always behind me, hung at the side of your work, tjn 
 the stone work you were striking at. 
 
 1537. When you look down you have a light right in 
 your eyes ? — No, it is hung on something. 
 
 1533. You seem to have a pain also from having the 
 light straight in your eyes as well 2 — Yes. 
 
 1539. {Professor Allbutt.) Which is the worst of these 
 attitudes ? — Looking up is the worst. 
 
 1540. You have been doing previous work before that ? 
 — Oh, yes. 
 
 1541. Did you in all your previous work get this dizzy 
 feeling ?— No, Sir. 
 
 1542. What was your previous work ? — Filling coal 
 out of the machine. 
 
 1543. How high is the headway in that place ? — I did 
 not work in the ripping there, I worked in the banks. 
 
 1544. How high was the place you were working in 
 above your head ?— I had to kneel, two feet nine inches. 
 
 1545. That was very low, and you were filling coal ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 ' 546. Had you to look up or down ? — You are on a 
 level with it all the time. 
 
 1547. Not to look up ?— Not much. 
 
 1548. To what do you attribute your condition? If 
 you were asked what was it that gave you this, what 
 do you think did it? — I think myself it is with look- 
 ing up at my work above me all the time. 
 
 1549. Then you were not looking up so much when 
 you were filling before you began this business ?- No, 
 your coal was dropped on the floor and you were in a 
 more natural position. 
 
 1550. Any pain in the muscles ? — A pain behind the 
 head. 
 
 1551. Did you feel ill in yourself with this condition 1 
 -No, Sir. 
 
 ] 552. You feel quite well ?— I feel a hit off. 
 
 1553. You are naturally worried at being disabled ; 
 but apart from that mental annoyance, your bodily 
 health would be good ? — Yes. 
 
 1554. Supposing we could put your eyes right, you 
 would be right 1 — Yes. 
 
 1555. It does not produce any feelings of general ill" 
 health ?— No. 
 
 1556. {Dr. Legge.) Did it come to you as a strange 
 thing ? — Yes, at first. 
 
 1557. Had you ssen any men with this same con- 
 dition before ? — Yes, I do not know about th« same 
 condition. I had a brother off — a ripper — about eleven 
 months. 
 
 1558. {Mr. Snell.) You are familiar with this as a 
 frequent thing 1 — Yes. 
 
 1559. {Dr. Legge.) Did you recognise it as a common 
 complaint amongst miners ? — No, I was a bit afraid 
 when it came upon me. 
 
 1560. {Chairman.) And did not recognise it ? — I 
 thought it was something very serious. 
 
 1561. {Mr. Snell.) Were you not familiar with miners 
 suffering from it ? — No. 
 
 {Mr. Snell.) The witness came to me as if he knew 
 all about it. 
 
 1562. {Professor Allbutt.) Have you any headache? 
 — Only now and again, at the back of the head, once or 
 twice. 
 
 1563. Not more than anyone else ; you do not attach 
 much importance to it ?— I have it now and again. 
 
 1564. Have you had more headache when working 
 than when not working ?— No, Sir. 
 
 1565. What do you do at home, do you sit and read 
 the paper ?— The docior told me not to read, I do not 
 know what to do. 
 
 1566. What do you do ?— I read magazines now and 
 again. 
 
 1 567. Do you read anything else ?— Yes. 
 
 1568. What ?— Books. 
 
 1569. Can you read a newspaper as well as a book ?— 
 Sometimes. If I read too long it seems to start me. 
 
 1570. Can you read for an hour ?— Oh, yes, I should 
 think so. 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Preslon. 
 
 16 Nov. 1906. 
 
 (The witness, Preston, then retired, and examination of Mr. Snell was resumed.) 
 
 1571. {Chairman.) How long will it be before the last 
 witness vnll get right ? —I could noi; tell you. He has 
 been off work for a fortnight. He may be better in 
 three or four weeks ; it may be months. It is almost 
 
 impossible to say. This man I had seen for two or ^^^ g ^^^^j 
 three minutes only three days ago, but he seemed very f.r'.c.s. ' 
 intelligent, and I thought if I were to show you anybody l.r.c.p.' 
 he was just the man. He is very much better in 
 
46 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. S. Snetl, himself than many of them are. He has no anaemia. 
 F.R.C.S., He makes no other complaints, a very honest, straight- 
 L.E.c.i'. forw.xrd man. 
 
 16 Nov 1906 1'"^"-- (Professor Allhutt.) May we take it from you 
 , .; ■ that the general health is unimpaired 1 — Yes. 
 
 1573. Is there any special idiosyncrasy about the cases ] 
 — I do not think so. 
 
 1574. Given the same amount of stress, it vpould 
 affect men much alike 1 — Yes ; though seme would be 
 longer than others before becoming aifected. 
 
 1575. There is no great difference 1 — N"o. 
 
 1576. With the ordinary healthy man a certain amount 
 of strain of this kind would pretty surely be followed by 
 nystagmus ? — In a very large proportion of them. 
 
 1577. Is there any important idiosyncrasy in these 
 cases 1 — Not specially so. 
 
 1578. How far are refractive errors — astigmatism and 
 other refractive errors — concerned in the causation ? — I 
 do not think so, I have worked it out very carefully. 
 
 1579. You think not ? — No. There is a peculiar point 
 about these men. Here you see a man with the 
 oscillations very marked. He is speaking absolutely 
 truthfully. He could not do his work. I could give 
 him a certificate to that effect. You may iind a man 
 with oscillations just as marked, and yet he is doing 
 his work. It gets into a chronic condition, and yet a 
 man goes on with his work apparently without distress . 
 
 1580. They feel nothing ? — They go on with their 
 work. A miner comes with a slight injury. His eyes 
 begin to oscillate directly he looks upwards, but he may 
 have been working that day. In another case you have 
 to provoke the oscillations by putting the man in 
 the position assumed at his work and yet he may have 
 Tery distressing symptoms. 
 
 1581. Briefly, there is no direct relation between the 
 amount of the nystagmus and the suffering of the 
 individual 1 — No, or very little. 
 
 15S2. Or the incapacity of the individual 1 — Yes, that 
 is so. 
 
 1583. That is the result of your experience ? — Very 
 light cases are sometimes very distressing, and very 
 severe ones not. 
 
 1584. Is there any compensatory process which may 
 neutralise or ameliorate the condition in any way ? — 
 Yes, in walking above ground they get into the habit 
 of throwing the head back. A man will come to me in 
 the out-patients' room. It will be seen at once at the 
 door that he has nystagmus, for he is keeping his head 
 back and his eyes down. 
 
 1585. That is the only compensation ? — That is 
 
 1586. None in the eye machinery itself ? — No. 
 
 1587. This takes us very easily on to the- question of 
 prognosis ; what should you say is the prognosis in this 
 man's case ? — A good one. 
 
 1588. Can you give us something like the number of 
 weeks or months approximately — will he be well in six 
 Bionths ? — Three months — some hang on for months. 
 
 1589. Three months absolute rest from mining 1 — Yes. 
 
 1590. And kept from any occupation within- a mine ? 
 — Much better for it. 
 
 1591. But he might do bank work? — Yes, in a few 
 weeks. 
 
 1592. {Chairman.) Will he be able to go irjto the mine'! 
 — That man may have some oscillations and yet feel so 
 much better that he will go back and work for a period 
 even if he breaks down again later on. 
 
 1593. {Professor Allhutt.) Do you advise him to go 
 back to work ? — Not for several weeks. 
 
 1594. Suppose the eanploy,er says he shall have '.any 
 time you desire for him, say six months, would he then 
 go back cured ?- I could not be certain he would not 
 break down again in another six months. 
 
 1595. Supposing the man to possess £1 a week himself, 
 you would advise him to stay away six moncus? — Yes, 
 and if he is a younger man I should give him this advice, 
 I should say, " Now, look here, you are a young man, if 
 you can do your work go and do it for the present and 
 look out for a different occupation." 
 
 1598. I havenot got my point. Supposing you had a 
 free hand to give him such rest as you thought fit, and 
 
 then he comes back to the mine, would he come back m 
 the position of a man who had never had nystagmus, or 
 would he be more likely to break down than he was 
 before'— More likely. The advice I should give him 
 would be this— "You say you are much better more fit 
 for work, can you get some work on the bank ( yo and 
 see the manager and get some work on the bank for a 
 time or permanently." Then I should say. It you do 
 go back to the mine with the same conditions, sooner or 
 later you may have a return of the old thing." 
 
 1597. Is he likely to find it return in a shorter time? 
 —He would be more likely, for I think the oscillatioM 
 once produced generally do not entirely cease, and the 
 liabihty to their recurrence is certainly greater after they 
 have once been produced. My difficulty in answering 
 this question is, I do not recollect having seen a man 
 suffering like this man coming back to me five or six 
 years afterwards, and saying, " Since you saw me before 
 I have never worked in the mine." I have never had a 
 case of that kind to compare with. 
 
 1598. You say that many old hands have oscillations, 
 though making no complaint ? — Yes. 
 
 1599. If you sent this man back to the mine after 
 such a long rest as we are supi)osing, is there any hope 
 that if not cured he might get into a chronic oscillatory 
 stage which would not materially interfere with his 
 work ?— I think so. That is the point I want to enforce. 
 
 1600. It is not necessary then that h 3 should abandon 
 his work ?— No— not always. 
 
 1601-2. He might get habituated to it ?— Yes, suppose 
 I went to a colliery and examined all the men. I went 
 to a candle lighted pit, and I found that six* of those 
 men were absent from their work on account of miners' 
 nystag-mus, but there were a large number of others 
 that were affecttd and made no complaint of it, I will 
 not say made no complaint, but were pursuing their 
 occupation. 
 
 1603. Do you think that many of them do suffer 
 in some slight degree, not so much as to take them 
 off work, but so niuch as to lead them to seek com- 
 pensation if they had the opportunity ? — The number who 
 would seek compensation would be ^'ery large. You . 
 could not separate the genuine from the others. That 
 is the very great difficulty. 
 
 {Chairman.) That is the difficulty, you see. 
 
 {Professor Allhutt.) They are all genuine, you mean 
 the incapable. 
 
 {2Ir. Snell.) I mean the incapable. 
 
 {Chairman.) The difficulty is to separate the in- 
 capable from those who think themselves incapable. 
 
 1604. {Professor Allhutt.) They have all got 
 nystagmus. Have you any idea of what percentage of 
 the colliers, capable or incapable, present nystagmus 1 — 
 I have no exact statistics. I believe it has been stated 
 that 30 per cent, suffer from it more or less, but I do not 
 guarantee the accuracy of these figures. 
 
 1605 (Chairman.) It is not an invariable accompani- 
 ment of mining work where a man looks upward — some 
 men can do that without getting it ? — I am sure they 
 can 
 
 1666. It follows apparently from your answer that 
 probably two-thirds of them could do this kind of work 
 looking up without getting it 1 — The men most liable 
 are about thirty per cent, working at the coal face. 
 
 1607. And out of those one in three gets it I — Most of 
 these. I have no data to go upon exactly. "When I 
 wrote this book I published a chapter on prevention. I 
 was under the impression that if they got coal 
 getting machines, that might assist, but with the evidence 
 that this man gives, and other men have given to me, 
 the conditions of work are not improved, as I anticipated 
 would be the case. 
 
 1608. In talking of prevention, would it be possible 
 to wear any form of spectacles that would enable the 
 rays to be deflected by them % — It is tlie muscles ttiat 
 are affected. 
 
 1609. A prism 1 — I see what you mean. 
 
 1610. Possibly it would be impracticable to use 
 anything of that sort 1 — Yes. It is not easy to see 
 that there is anything to be done in that way. 
 
 1611. I will put it this way, Mr. Snell, if these men 
 were entitled to claim compensation who are suffering 
 
 350 men were employed, and out of these 150 were stallmen, thus 3i per -cent, of those- worldng -as coal getters 
 
 ■were off^'WOrk. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 47 
 
 from this disease, it would mean a very large number of 
 claims amongst the miners 1 — Yes. 
 
 1612. And might lead, in fact, I think I might say ■ 
 logically, probably would lead, to only one man out of 
 two Iq the average of mankind being capable of carrying 
 on the trade of mining in low mines ?— AVell, I would 
 not say quite that. I have not got the figures exactly. 
 I think it would lead to the withdrawal of a large num- 
 ber of the men from the mine unless they were deter- 
 mined, like they are now, without exc se to go on with 
 their work. Many of them who are suffering would go 
 on with their work, getting £2 a week rather than £1 a 
 week compensation, or 38s. a week rather than 19s. a 
 week compensation. 
 
 1613. Many men for the sake of the wage would put 
 up with it 1 — And many of them would continue their 
 work as they do now and not experience pain or diffi- 
 culty from the disease they have got. 
 
 1614. (Professor Allbutt.) That in your opinion is 
 rather a large proportion ? — A very large proportion. 
 
 1615. The affected men, but not the suffering men ?— 
 It might lead to a large number of men who are able to 
 do their work seeking compensation. 
 
 1616. {Chairman) This then is a disease which it is 
 not difficult to diagnose, but it is very difficult to say 
 how far it should be held to prevent a man carrying on 
 his occupation 1 — Yes. 
 
 1617. (Professor Allbutt.) To put it in technical lan- 
 guage, there is no definite relation between the objective 
 and subjective symptoms ?— That is so. Objective 
 symptoms are apparent. For the subjective you have to 
 rely on the man. 
 
 1618. (Chairman.) And then it is very difficult to say 
 whether it is reasonable for a man to go on with his 
 occupation and bear it ? — I do not know whether you 
 can say this. If I were put into the ■witness box and 
 asked " Can this or that man be said to be incapable of 
 work or not," I should have great difficulty in 
 answering in the majority of cases, and the only answer 
 I could make would be that I have seen men suffering 
 who are still pursuing their work. On the other hand 
 I have seen many instances of men affected who seem 
 to be absolutely speaking the truth t\ hen they say they 
 are incapable. 
 
 1619. (Professor Allbutt.) Suffering or merely affected ? 
 —Affected. 
 
 1 620. (Chairman.) kuA yet seem to be speaking the 
 truth when they say they are unable to follow their 
 employment ? — Yes. 
 
 1621. The truth is this, then, that you would perhaps 
 hesitate if you were deciding the matter before putting 
 this disease down in the third schedule of the Work- 
 men's Compensation Billl — I have thought that over 
 for some time, and I do not see how you are to do it. I 
 have been considering this question rather carefully and 
 I am bound to say that if this disease were put purely 
 and simply into the third schedule of the Workmen's 
 Compensation Bill, it would apparently necessitate 
 altermg the whole system of coal mining. The roads 
 lor instance, instead of being four feet or four feet six 
 inches would have to be made much higher. 
 
 1622. Then I will put it generally, Mr. Snell. Speak- 
 ing in the interests ot the men, on their side, do you feel 
 doubtful whether it would be good policy to have it put 
 down into the schedule ?— Well, of course, during the 
 time they are disabled like this man, if his wages are 
 38s., he would get 19s., whereas at present he may only 
 receive 10s. a week from his club. It would be so much 
 better in this way. 
 
 1623. Looking at its general effect on the industry !~ 
 It would not be good from the men's point of view nor 
 from the employer's. I think it would throw so many 
 of them out of work. It would, I think, add enor- 
 mously to the cost of coal getting on the one side, and 
 it might throw a lot of men out of employment. I have 
 done a lot of compensation work in all classes of work- 
 men, and numbers of these men belong to ssveral clubs, 
 and many ot them when off on compensation gee 
 more than tfcey Viculd at work. I know men at 30s. a 
 week getting £3 Its. a week from benefit societies and 
 compensation. All these things add greatly to the 
 difficulty of it. 
 
 1624. What I wanted to bring out is that in your 
 opinion it is not a mere question for the employer. It 
 is also a question that might react unfavourably upon 
 the men ? — I think so. 
 
 1625. And one in which considerable care ought to be 
 
 taken in judging what to do?— Yes, I think 
 tremendously difficult question myself if \ou were to 
 put it in the schedule. 
 
 1626.^ One other question. Are there other trades 
 than mining where something of the same kind is pro- 
 duced ?— Yes, I was going to refer to that, if you allow 
 me now. The first case that I saw of the sort was a 
 compositor working in the "Telegraph" Office just 
 down here. I went to follow him at his work, and he 
 had to cast his eyes upwards when getting the type. 
 Since then I have collected together twenty- one cases. 
 Six of these were compositors, two were metal rollers, 
 and there was a platelayer, a plank cutter, a saw maker, 
 a sanitary tube maker, a fitter, an iron founder, a worker 
 in a "cage," two glass workers, a youth in a confec- 
 tionery warehouse, a man at the screens on the surface 
 of a coal mine, a blacksmith, and a man whose duty it 
 was to hang up harness. The platelayer, whose case 
 came to the notice of a friendof mine, was a middle-aged 
 man acting as foreman over platelayers, and it was his 
 duty to look along the rails to see if they were laid truly 
 in line. He had to bring his head to a low level, and 
 had to rotate the eyes strongly upwards. My friend 
 said : " I made him show me the position in my room." 
 He further says, "I was puzzled at fir=,t, for he had 
 normal vision in both eyes, and nothing to be 
 seen amiss ; but on learning the precise nature of 
 his work and questioning him further I learned that his 
 trouble was that objects danced before his eyes — no 
 doubt nystagmus brought on by the position." 
 
 1627. Have you ever had complaints with regard to 
 plasterers of ceilings or decorators of ceilings 1 — Yes, I 
 have referred to this in my book and my papers. It is 
 historically true, I believe, that Michael Angelo 
 suffered from a weariness of his eye muscles if not 
 nystagmus. Jlichael Angelo, after his great work of 
 decorating with frescoes the vault of the Sistine Chapel, 
 which he accomplished in eighteen months, suffered 
 from the discomforts attendant on the strained attitude 
 he then assumed, and from looking upwards at the 
 vault. He worked on a special platform, and he wrote 
 a sonnet describing his position. The artist drew a 
 caricature of the position he had to occupy on the 
 scaffold. I have not been able to get a copy of the 
 drawing, but this is the sonnet from Mr. John Addington 
 Symonds' translation : — 
 
 " I'v grown a goitre by dwelling in this den. 
 As cats from stagnant streams in Lombardy, 
 Or in what other land they hap to be — • 
 Which drives the belly close beneath the chin : 
 My beard turns up to Heaven : my nape falls in 
 Fixed on my spine ; my breast-bone visibly 
 Grows like a harp ; a rich embroidery 
 Bedews my face from brush-drops thick and thin. 
 My loins into my paunch like levers grind : 
 My buttock like a crupper bears my weight ; 
 My feet unguided wander to and fro ; 
 In front my skin grows loose and long ; behind 
 By bending, it becomes more taut and straight ;. 
 Crossvnse I strain me like a Syrian bow : 
 Whence false and quaint, I know. 
 Must be the fruit of squinting brain and eye : 
 For ill can aim the gun that bends awry. 
 Come, then, Giovanni, try 
 To succour my dead pictures and my fame. 
 Since foul I fare, and painting is my shame." 
 
 1628. That you mean is descriptive. Is it a poet's 
 description of what ho felt? — It is known that he 
 suffered from his eyes. 
 
 1629. In respect to the next question, the truth is 
 then, Mr. Snell, that this is not a specific _ disease of a 
 specific occupation so much as an incapacity produced 
 by a peculiar use of the eyes in any occupation 1 — Only 
 other occupations do not require such prolonged strain 
 and do not produce it to the same extent, therefore, 
 as in mining. In mining the conditions are particularly 
 favourable for the production of nystagmus. Might 
 I just refer to some cases, particularly to the point, 
 in a paper which I read to the Ophthalmological 
 Society in London. I got jjermission to examine a man 
 with a friend of mine. Tnis was a man working in a 
 bad light. He was a cab cleaner. I iounu out that he 
 had given up cab cleaning at my friend's desire, but he 
 still pursued other work, and the nystagmus was atill 
 very marked. His occupation had formerly been that 
 of washing cabs. This he had for some time relin- 
 quished, and had been taking money and entering the 
 amounts received. I had permission to ask any qup-s- 
 tions I desired, and it appeared that he hung up a 
 
 it is^a Mr. S. Snen, 
 
 F.E.C.S., 
 L.R.C.P. 
 
 16 Nov. 1006. 
 
48 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. S. Snc'l, great deal of harness. I found out the interesting 
 
 F.ji.c.s., fact that when cab cleaning he had also to hang up 
 
 L.R.C.P. many sets of harness. This he had continued to do 
 
 up to the time of my seeing him. Every night he 
 
 16 Nov. 1906. hung up as many as fifty sets of harness, which 
 occupied him for about three hours. He was a man 
 oi 5 feet 7 inches and he had to reach the harness 
 up to a height of 7 feet or more, and to see that each 
 portion of the harness was properly placed on the 
 rack, and turned his eyes directly upwards. This he 
 denionstrated to us, and he also asserted that he found 
 this upturning of the eyes very distressing. The explan- 
 ation for the onsetl of the nystagmus and for its 
 continuance in spite of a change of work in other 
 respects was thus fully explained. The position the 
 man assumed closely resembled that often required of 
 a deputy in a coal mine when examining the state of 
 the roof. 
 
 1630. (Professor Allbutt.) Your cases are all elevator 
 cases 1 — Yes. 
 
 1631. Lateral movement ? — I think there are cases of 
 lateral movement. 
 
 1632. Occupations do not demand it so much % — No. 
 
 1633. Apart from organic disease of the nervous 
 .•Tsysteii, and apart from the occupations, have you any 
 
 cases of nystagmus unaccounted for ? — No. 
 
 1634. {Chairman.) How many men should you say 
 per cent, would be incapacitated from work by this, 
 what proportion of the men engaged ? — I do not think it 
 is a very, great proportion. 
 
 1635. It would be small 1— Yes. 
 
 1636. But as you have told us, very difficult to draw 
 the line as to who is incapacitated and who not ? — I do 
 not think myself it is a very great evil. It might be 
 "Considered a great evil under compensation. 
 
 1637. If it were made a subject of compensation, it 
 might be made a subject of compensation on a large 
 scale ; but you do not consider it is a great evil ? — No. 
 
 1638. {Professor Allbutt.) Taking this man now whom 
 we have had before us, how far do you consider that 
 this is a blight on his future career as a coal getter ? — 
 That man is about thirty or' thirty- three. He has 
 ■already been working from the age of thirteen or 
 fourteen without much disablement. He has already 
 ibeen working for eighteen years without much dis- 
 ablement, and it is only now that he is affected. I am 
 not sure that a man like this will not pass into a chronic 
 condition of nystagmus where the symptoms do not 
 appear to trouble him to any great degree. 
 
 1639. It might spoil one year in the next ten ? — He 
 may be off three months, and go back to work again. 
 
 1640. He might work nine out of the next ten years ? 
 
 —Yes. 
 
 1641. The compensation would be either temporary 
 ■ or permanent. Temporary compensation for a man like 
 
 this would be three months. Then, if the question of 
 permanent compensation came up, the point arises 
 v/hether he should ever return to that work again ? — 
 ' That I do not see how one can say. 
 
 1642. {Dr. Legge.) What happens in Germany where 
 they have a sickness insurance scheme? Is it met 
 there by contribution on the part of the employers and 
 employed lasting for thirteen weeks ? — I do not know. 
 
 1643. Is there opposition to the view that you have 
 •expressed amongst the miners themselves as to the 
 causation ? — Nothing like there was. Twenty years ago 
 they attributed it to the safety lamps. Very few men 
 will say that now, and the reason I can attribute it to 
 on the part of the men was this — they saw the safety 
 lamp whirling round and they therefore thought it was 
 that light which caused their complaint. 
 
 1644. Leaving nystagmus, do you know what ia 
 called "beat knee "1— No. 
 
 1645. "Beat hand"?— No. 
 
 1646. Whether it is a strain affecting the knee from 
 pne position 1 — I quite believe 
 
 1647. But it has not been brought to your notice 1 
 
 —No. 
 
 1648. During your prolonged enquiry into miners' 
 
 nystagmus 1 — No. 
 
 1649. You have seen some cases of blindness follow- 
 ing poisoning by di-nitro-benzol ?— Some years ago I 
 went thoroughly into the matter. 
 
 1650. We have not had any evidence as to amblyopia 
 following from it, and you have published some cases. 
 Would you let us have the information shortly?— 
 Before I finish miners' nystagmus I should like to say I 
 have made a series of observations as to the effect 
 miners' nystagmus bears to explosions. 
 
 1651. How many cases are there of amblyopia follow- 
 ing di-nitro-benzol poisoning ?— That is some years ago. 
 'There was in the neighbourhood of Sheffield — there is 
 a di-nitro-benzol factory now at Denaby. I have not 
 seen any cases for years. 
 
 1652. {Profe.tsor Allbutt.) Because those works are 
 closed 1 — They are better conducted. Before I pub- 
 lished my investigations some years ago, several cases 
 of amblyopia or failure of vision in workers in di-nitro- 
 benz )1 came under my observation. This led me to make 
 inquiries as to the manner of the work performed, and 
 the effect of this di-nitro-benzol not only on the vision of 
 patients, but on the system geiiera'ly. My observations 
 were published in a paper which appeared in the 
 "British Medical Journal," March 3rd, 1894. At the 
 time I was interested in the subject. Dr. Dupre, of the 
 Home Office, and Captain Hamilton Smith, Inspector 
 of Factories at Sheffield, had instructions to inquire 
 into this matter, and as a result of my investigations, as 
 reported to them, the Secretary of State decided that, in 
 his opinion, the manufacture of explosives for which 
 di-nitro-benzol was used was dangerous to health, and 
 notice to observe special rules was given to the different 
 manufactarers. The rules recommended were those 
 drawn up by me for Captain Smith and Dr. Dupre and 
 alluded to in their report. Since then I have talked to 
 the manager of the place referred to once or twice, and 
 the whole thing is now very different, I understand. 
 
 1653. {Dr. Legge.) I believe there was amblyopia in 
 addition to the lividity and the other recognised S5 mp- 
 toms. What form did that assume ? — It assumed very 
 much the form of toxic amblyopia. 
 
 1654. It was not optic neuritis ? — No, it was a contrac- 
 tion of the field of vision, the vision of each eye was 
 greatly impaired, greatly reduced, and the deterioration 
 of vision was gradual. 
 
 1655. Lasting how long, or taking how long? — To 
 come on ? 
 
 1656. To produce itself ?^This is the description of 
 one case. I saw him on February 11th, 1892, "J. H., 
 aged 35, presented himself on February 11th, 1892. He 
 stated that just before the previous Christmas his sight 
 commenced to fail. On reaching home at night he could 
 not recognise his wife across the table. During the next 
 few days it became much worse, and then deterioration 
 was more gradual. Recently his vision has remained 
 about stationary, and this, as will be explained, has been 
 associated with an alteration of work. Vision ineacheye 
 is three-sixtieths, and he reads Jl6. Both optic discs are 
 decidedly pale • the edges are quite defined, and there 
 is no appreciable diminution in calibre of vessels. The 
 field of vision is somewhat contracted concentrically, 
 and there is a small fairly defined central scotoma for 
 red and green. The pupils are normal in all ways. The 
 patient has been a smoker for twenty years, consuming 
 gensrally about 1| oz a week ; he has not been smoking 
 more nor less than usual lately ; the kind of tobacco he 
 smokes is cut cavendish. He takes very little alcohol 
 being almost a teetotaler. His face is pallid, lips bluish, 
 anl conjunctivae yellowish. The finger tips are blue, 
 looking like ' cold fingers ; ' the nails are discoloured, 
 of a fawn colour, darker at the ends, and gradually 
 tapering towards the matrix. The toes are like the 
 fingers, the nails being even more discoloured. The 
 urine was free from albumen ; specific gravity, 1029 ; 
 whilst he was engaged in the work to be mentioned, it 
 was dark like ink, but it has lately become clearer. The 
 man's occupation properly is that of a blacksmith, but 
 being out of employment and failing to get anything to 
 do at his own trade, he went to work in July, 1891, for 
 a company where explosives, in which nitro- benzol wa.« 
 used, were made. Previously to undertaking this work, 
 he asserts that his health was perfectly good and sight 
 excellent. He was employed at these works in the 
 ' mixing shed,' and worked there in the way that has 
 been described. He began this three days after joining 
 the works. On the lirst day he asserts that he felt the 
 effects of the benzol. He experienced giddiness and 
 shortness of breath A short time later he looked 
 yellowish and his lips blue. The giddiness compelled 
 him to sit down. Gradually he appears to have 
 become accustomed to these symptoms, and he does 
 not seem to have suffered as severely as others. He 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 49 
 
 kept out of the mixing shed a? much as he could, 
 and his residence being a good distance from his 
 •work, he was compelled to take a good sharp walk. These 
 are reasons, he thinks, why he suffered less than others. 
 Before Christmas, however, he bscame worse ; the 
 shortness of breathf increased ; he tossed about in bed 
 in his sleep, and suffered from great weikness. He 
 experienced a want of sensation in his arms and legs, 
 and they were ' prickly feeling ; ' the legs were numbed 
 to the knees and the arms to the elbows ; there was a 
 stiffness about the hands and feet, bat especially the 
 fingers ; he finds a little difficulty in undoing his collar 
 button. The patellar reflex is good (exaggerated?) 
 When ' mixing,' he suffered from occipital headache a 
 good deal, but he has not had any vomiting. Memory, 
 taste, and smell are all good. He was disturbed and 
 restless in sleep, and was troubled with dreams and 
 shouted out. A marked effect had been wrought on his 
 sexual functions. He had lost desire. He had not bsen 
 amongst the powder for a month. The only other point 
 to mention is that he suffered from an attack of influenza 
 before going to the explosives works. He was desired to 
 avoid all contact from the benzol compounds, and the 
 firm provided an occupation away from these for him. 
 He was prescribed liq. strych. in a mixture. He was 
 desired to continue his smoking precisely as he had been ' 
 acciistomed to. Progress towards recovery was steady." 
 
 1657. Was there complete recovery in this case "i — I 
 hink so. A great point is the enlargement of the veins. 
 
 1658. These cases were from the factory, not from 
 simply using roburite catridges in the mines ? — No. 
 They were all engaged in making explosives. 
 
 1659. {Professor Allbutt.) I should like to ask you 
 
 whether the contraction of the field of vision can 
 taken as a test with other things of di-nitro-benzol 
 poisoning. Is it sufficiently constant ?— There was a 
 central scotoma, I have the exact wording here by way 
 of summarising the symptoms in the cases which I 
 recorded. Eeferring to the cases mentioned, the charac- 
 teristics are: failure of sight, often to a considerable 
 degree, in a more or less equal extent on the two sides ; 
 concentric contraction of visual field, with, in many cases, 
 a central scotoma for colour ; enlargement of retinal ves- 
 sels, especially the veins ; some blurring, never exten- 
 sive, of edges of disc and a varying degree of pallor of its 
 surface — the condition of retinal vessels spoken of being 
 observed in workers with the di-nitro-benzol indepen- 
 dently of complaints of defective sight. - Cessation of 
 work with the benzol leads to recovery. In one case, 
 vision had continued defective, with contracted field, a 
 considerable time after the exposure to di-nitro-benzol 
 had ceased. The symptoms mentioned are quite in 
 accord with toxic amblyopia from other causes, whether 
 it be tobacco, iodoform, or bisulphide of carbon, of 
 which several cases are on record. 
 
 1660. Supposing a person complained of poisoning in 
 these works in good faith ?— Yes 
 
 1661. And this contraction of the field of vision could 
 be taken as an objective symptom by which his state- 
 ment could be tested ?— Yes all these people suffer from 
 the general symptoms. 
 
 1662. That can be taken as test 1 — Yes. 
 
 1663. And the veins are of really excessive diameter 
 outside mere individual peculiarity ? — Yes, deeper in 
 colour and larger in diameter. 
 
 be Mr. S. Snell, 
 
 F.R.C.S., 
 L.R.C.P. 
 
 16 Nov. 1906. 
 
 Mr. Aethue Hall, M.D., F.R.C.P., called and examined. 
 
 1664. {Chairman.) Dr. Arthur Hall, M.A., M.D., 
 r.RC.P., I believe ?-Yes. 
 
 1665. Physician to the Sheffield Royal Hospital, 
 Visiting Physician to the Sheffield Union Hospital, and 
 Lecturer on Morbid Anatomy at the University of 
 Sheffield?— Yes. 
 
 1666. As Physician to the Sheffield Royal Hospita 
 for 17 years, you have had an extensive experience of 
 certain trade diseases of Sheffield due to dust inhala 
 tion ? — Yes, sir. I have. 
 
 1667. These take the form of respiratory affections, do 
 they not ?— They do. 
 
 1668. I will ask you only for a more popular descrip- 
 of the disease, leaving the technical one to Professor 
 Allbutt. But speaking in popular language you would 
 say that they are characterised by a gradual (and in- 
 sidious onset of the nature of chronic bronchial catarrh, 
 which in the early stages is most evident in the winter 
 months as a winter cough 2 — Yes. 
 
 1609. As the disease advances, shortness of breath, 
 persistent cough, weakness, and inability to work 
 follows ? — Yes. 
 
 1670. In the early stages, can you diagnose this dis- 
 ease easily ? — Not easily. 
 
 1671. In the later stages is it easy or difficult ? — Some- 
 times easy, somtimes difficult. 
 
 1672. When it has once started the progress is usually 
 steady ? — Usually progressive, from bad to worse. 
 
 1673. To what sorts of dust do you attribute the 
 disease chiefly 1 — To dust either from stone in grinders, 
 or to dust from the pearl or the horn in the cutlers, the 
 dust in the ordinary cutler's work in the making of the 
 knife. 
 
 1674-5. The handles of the knives 1 — Yes. 
 
 1676. {Chairman.) Dust chiefly from the grinding 
 machines 2 — And also from the object ground. 
 
 1677. Then steel dust enters into it ?— Steel dust appa- 
 rently enters into it. 
 
 1678. To a larger extent or less 1 — To a less extent 
 than the others. 
 
 1679. Steel less than the others ?— That is my im- 
 pression. 
 
 1680. Are those the only three sorts of dust which 
 originate the disease to which you are going to call our 
 attention, or are there any other sorts of dust ? — I do not 
 think compared with these that there are any others 
 in my experience of equal importance. 
 
 419 
 
 1681. We have got three dusts, dusts from grinding Mr. A. Hall 
 wheels, steel dust, and there are dusts of handle m.d., f.e.c. p. 
 materials 1 — Horn or pearl or ivory. 
 
 1682. Of these you consider that the dust from the 
 wheels, from the abrading substances on the wheels is the 
 most important ? — Yes. 
 
 1683. Of what does the dust from the abrading wheels 
 or the grinding wheels generally consist 1 — It is the 
 ordinary grit of the stone. 
 
 1684. Silica. Is there dust from wheels, corundum 
 powder ? — Yes. 
 
 1685. That will be another one and different from the 
 dust from the^-4 — Quite so, it has nothing to do with 
 the grinders. 
 
 1686. There will be emery dust, will there 1^-That is 
 certainly possible. I have no actual evidence. 
 
 1687. Now, 1 suppose, Dr. Hall, that you have the- 
 opinion that it is not all dusts that are equally dan- 
 gerous. Some dusts in the inflammation of the lungs 
 are much more dangerous than othors 1 — i think so j, 
 yes, 
 
 1688. And silica dusts, hard silica dusts, would b&' 
 among the more dangerous group ?— Yes. 
 
 1689. Emery dusts you are not prepared apparently to' 
 speak very positively about ? — No, I am not. 
 
 1690. Steel dust, a less degree than the hard stone 
 dust?— Yes. 
 
 1691. I will first take horn ; I should like to put it 
 you that I have seen a horn factory ?— Yes. 
 
 1692. Where the men were inhaling the most enor- 
 mous quantity of horn dust and they said it did them 
 good, would that surprise you ?— Yes. 
 
 1G93. They have treated it in some places as abso- 
 lutely innocuous. Horn dust in some places is con- 
 sidered very innocuous. Have you, for instance — can 
 you give us any facts upon which you base your opinion ? 
 —As to horn I am surprised 1 
 
 1694. Or was it the material that was grinding the 
 horn that had come off?— I have no positive evidence 
 that horn by itself is an irritating dust. But these men 
 work in various dusts, and one is unable to say always 
 from the lung or from the symptoms exactly which dust 
 is the more important as an irritant, and one has to, 
 more or less, class them all together, because sometimes 
 thev are working in one kind and sometimes in another. 
 
 G 
 
 '07049 
 
5 
 
 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. Ba'!, 1695. In naming the diiferent sorts of dust, you do 
 M.D.,F.R.c.p. not desire to lay stress upon the badness of this or that 
 
 particular dust, so much as the effects that are produced 
 
 16 Not. 190S. among tho men who have been working at the trades of 
 knife making or steel grinding respectively 1 —That is so. 
 
 1696. Is this disease that is got from dust so specific 
 that you can distinguish it from ordinary phthisis, tuber- 
 cular phthisis'! — I think you would distinguish it rather 
 liy negative characteristics than positive ones. 
 
 1697. Explain that. — The symptoms may be very 
 similar to those of tubercular phthisis, but there may be 
 an absence of tubercular bacilli in the sputum examined. 
 
 1698. If you had a man suffering from phthisis and 
 did not know what his trade was, could you by a 
 prolonged examination tell whather he was suffering 
 from fibroid phthisis or not 1— If he had bacilli in his 
 sputum it would be positive evidence that he had 
 tuberculosis, but I do not think you could say whether 
 that was grafted on an original fibroid disease. 
 
 1699. Supposing he had no tuberculosis about him ? — 
 It would be very suspicious, but I do not know that you 
 could positively say so. 
 
 1700. The most severe form is with regard to dry 
 grinders rather than wet grinders ? — Yes. 
 
 1701. You would hesitate to say that there was a 
 typical cutler's lung ? — Yes, I would. 
 
 1702. But do you think that a larger number of cutlers 
 suffer from respiratory diseases than the average of 
 mankind 1 — Yes I do. 
 
 170.3. Is there a difference between men and women in 
 that respect ?— Yes. In the Sheffield statistics. Y'ou 
 do not mean as cutlers 1 
 
 1704. That wa3 what I was coming to. Taking the 
 general population of Sheffield or England is there any 
 difference between the amount of tubercular disease in 
 women as compared with men in percentage "i — Yes. 
 
 1705. Which sex suffers more from the disease? — The 
 men I should say. 
 
 1706. There is a natural tendency in man to catch it 
 more than women ? — Tuberculosis, I think so. 
 
 1707. You are not able at this moment to give the 
 exact figures 1 — ^No, but that is my impression. 
 
 1708. And when you come to Sheffield the difference 
 would be still more marked. Can you give us any idea 
 of the proportion of cutlers that suffer from diseases 
 of the respiratory organs in Sheffield 1 Have you any 
 statistics? — No actual numbers of the proportion of 
 cutlers. I have some statistics of the number of cases 
 attended that I have come across in respect of trades. 
 I do not know what proportion that bears to the total 
 number employed. 
 
 1709. Should you say that the life of the cutler, the 
 grinding cutler, is shorter than that of the average 
 workman ?— The grinder is not classed amongst the 
 •cutlers. lie is a separate man. 
 
 1710. Is there a typical grinders' lung? — Yes 
 
 1711. You told us that there was no typical cutler's 
 lung. Is there a typical grinder's lung ?— Yes, Sir. 
 
 1712. And among the grinders there is more 
 respiratory disease than amongst others of the popu- 
 lation ? — Yes, there is. Sir. 
 
 1713.— Can you give us any figures with regard to 
 grinders as to the proportion of men that would be 
 suffering from the disease to the total number of 
 grinders ? — I could not. 
 
 1714. No more than in the case of cutlers ? — I could 
 not, 
 
 1715. Is it your impression that tue grmders live a 
 shorter life than the average workman ?- It is. 
 
 1716. Can you give us any figures, supposing you 
 were advising an insurance society for instance, as to 
 the premium that a grinder ought to pay as comparer* 
 with a carpenter or a man engaged in some other trade, 
 what would you say ? — They would be very vague, but 
 from my own cases that I have seen I tmnk that tne 
 average comes out to the grinder usually being finished 
 at 40 to 45 years of age. 
 
 1717. Finished off? — At any rate when he is in the last 
 stage of pulmonary disease. 
 
 1718. Do you mean that the average grinder— dry 
 grinder — the average grinder, as things are now, would 
 not be expected to live above 45 years of age t — No. 
 
 1719. Thit is his expsctation of life?— Not if you 
 take the whole of the grinders. The only evidence I 
 have is of the ages of those who have come up to hos- 
 pital suffering from severe symptoms. 
 
 1720. That of course is a different thing?— I have no 
 information on that, the average life of a grinder. 
 
 1721. But the average life of the grinder. You have 
 examined the sick grinder above 45 ?— No ; I have no 
 actual figures on the point. 
 
 1722. You cannot give us any figures tending to show 
 what proportion the^e grinders suffering fromthe disease 
 bear to the grinders in general? — I cannot. Sir. 
 
 1723. Nor can you give ua apparently any help in 
 determining what the risk to life should be considered 
 of the grinder's occupation ?— I think it would be very 
 difficult, and of course there are wet grinders and dry 
 grinders. It would be different in the case of the dry 
 grinders. 
 
 1724. The dry grinders — do you consider it an occu- 
 pation that shortens life on the average ? — I do. 
 
 1725. Can you gave us the number of years on the 
 average, the whole of them, well and sick altogether — 
 of course I cannot press you ? — I should say that they 
 do not live much above 50, the dry grinders. 
 
 1726. I am speaking of dry grinders ? — I think. Sir, 
 that I really could not give a definite answer. 
 
 1727. (ProfesKor Allhutt.) In your hospital — what im- 
 pression have you with regard to other diseases amongst 
 grinders ? Leaving out phthisis, do they come in suffer- 
 ing from other diseases ? — Not to any extent. 
 
 1728. In those who come in suffering from other 
 diseases, do you find a prevalence of lung disease 
 notable ?— In Sheffield ? 
 
 1729. Grinders will come in for other things, but are 
 you led at the same time to discover that they have very 
 commonly pulmonary complications ? A. B. comes in 
 to you. He is a dry grinder, and he has another disease, 
 kidney disease, do you anticipate that he will also hav& 
 pulmonary complications? — It is common to find that 
 where a man has been working as a grinder and comes 
 in for another disease, there is some affection of the 
 lung. 
 
 1730. Practically you do not come in contact with the 
 grinders unless they are ill from some cause or the other ? 
 
 —No. 
 
 1731. {Chairman) Sheffield as a town is subject to 
 phthisis more than the United Kingdom ?^Yes, accord- 
 ing to the statistics. 
 
 1732. And I understand that the climate here is not 
 a very good one for lung diseases, having some tendency 
 to bring them on. You see my object? We want to 
 discriminate as it were ?— I should not have said that 
 Sheffield was a bad locality for phthisis per se. 
 
 1733. That is what I wanted. It is not considered 
 that Sheffield is peculiarly subject to consumption. It 
 might be replied that there is a good deal of consump 
 tion about. I wanted your opinion on that point. I 
 suppose phthisis is, to a certain extent, aggravated by 
 alconolism ?— Yes. 
 
 1734. If a man who has got phthisis in a slight and 
 early stage were taken off the grinding for a time, then 
 I suppose he would recover — the state of the lung would 
 recover 1 — I think it would be very difficult to answer 
 that. I think we are rather confusing terms. When 
 you speak of phthisis I do not know whether you mean 
 tuberculosis or grinders dry fibrosis. 
 
 1735. {Professor Allbutt.) We may take phthisis as a 
 chronic destructive lung disease of whatever origin — 
 phthisis does not connote tubercle. If the man having 
 started with this chronic lung disease were to stop his 
 wonc would he recover so as to be able to go back to 
 his work again ? — I question very much whether he 
 would be able to do that. He might recover and do 
 some other work, but there is the lesion produced. 
 
 1736. When he is re-exposed you think it will come 
 on— whatever the interval. 
 
 1737. {Chairman.) An interval would be of no use ?— 
 
 No. 
 
 1738. Would it be of use in preventing his getting it 
 by having intervals of grinding and no grinding ? -I do 
 not think so. 
 
 1739. We have had evidence given us that in the 
 ganister trade in which you inhale dust of that character 
 that alternations of employment would bring a man 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 51 
 
 considerably right again, and in fact prevent him from 
 getting phthisis — you have no opinion on that 1 — I have 
 no experience of that, and I could not express an 
 opinion on it. As_ a matter of fact many grinders 
 have considerable intervals. The wet grinder has 
 intervals between J;he times when he races his stone. 
 That is a matter of only a few minutes in several days. 
 
 1740. Have you any suggestions to oifer as to the way 
 in which this fibroid phthisis could be diminished 1—A.a 
 to how to prevent them inhaling the dust 1 
 
 1741. Is there anything to be done ^— I do not know 
 of anything you can do. 
 
 1742. Are you acquainted with any of the factories 
 and the way dust is created or breathed 1 — To a certain 
 extent, yes. 
 
 1743. Changes have taken place in the last few years 
 for the better, to what are those changes due— what 
 precautions would you like to see taken 1 — I am afraid 
 I do not know suflBcient about the working in the 
 factories for my opinion to be of any value on this poiot. 
 
 1741 Some mode of reducing the dust is the great 
 thing. Are there not, as a fact, a number of trades 
 carried on in closed rooms where dangerous dust pre- 
 vails that might very well be done by men warmly clad, 
 more like seamen, in very much more exposed situations 
 where their health would be better'! — Oh, I think 
 certainly. 
 
 1745. Would you have any objection to see men work 
 in a mere shed to keep the rain off and allow the winds 
 of Heaven to blow in and themselves clad in warm 
 garments 1 — I think it would be most advantageous. 
 Of course there is the point, it depends upon what 
 extent the man has to work with his fingers, as to cold 
 and so on, how much he has to use his fingers. 
 
 1746. (jonsider what a sailor does in tying knots at 
 sea, even in cold weather. When he is a little habituated 
 to it would not the man in this case be able to work 
 under some such conditions ?— I do not see any reason 
 why he should not. 
 
 1747. Is not it your impression that a good many of 
 these trades are carried on under conditions of enclosure 
 from the weather which are not advisable in the interests 
 of the health of the men ? —Yes. 
 
 1748. Some exposure and warm clothing would put an 
 end to lung troubles t — I do not know that I could say 
 that it would put an end to lung troubles, but it might 
 check the tuberculosis. 
 
 1749. That is what I meant by it. Will not it check 
 the fibroid disease too if you blow the dust right away 1 
 — But the dust might blow into the air passages just 
 as much whether there are side walls or not. 
 
 17.')0. There is oue thing in an enclosed factory, the 
 dust that goes about lies upon the beams, the tops of 
 doors and other places and at the slightest motion is 
 blown down ?— Yes. 
 
 1751. Whereas if you had a very open shed the dust 
 would be dispersed by the winds 1 — I see that point of 
 view. I think it would differ in different cases. In the 
 case of the grinder he practically works in the open 
 air. His windows are not closed. 
 
 1752. It is very largely open, and you prefer in cases 
 of that sort windows open or with no glass in them 1 — 
 Yes. 
 
 1753. (Professor Allbutt.) I understand that you are 
 speaking as a hospital physician ? — Yes. 
 
 1754. Have you any notes that you would like to 
 volunteer, anything that you would like to offer the 
 Committee ? — ^Yes, a list of all the patients who have 
 been admitted during the last three years into the con- 
 sumption block at the Fir Vale Uniou Hospital, with par- 
 ticulars of their trades, and I have made a small state 
 ment of that as to their different trades, during the three 
 years, with the percentages. I have divided them into 
 cutlers, file cutters, grinders, horn and ivory handle 
 makers, fluters they are sometimes called, and silver 
 smiths, and I find that of 500 cases admitted into the 
 phthisis block, into the tuberculosis block at Fir Vale 
 Hospital 
 
 1755. Under what tests, positive tuberculosis ? — Not 
 absolutely all of them. But you may take it that the 
 bulk of them are. 
 
 1756. Prima facie they were? — Of those 6'4 per cent, 
 were grinders ; cutlers 3"6 ; and each of the other trades 
 mentioned above comes to less than I per cent. 
 
 1757. That is both sexes ? — No, males only. 
 419 
 
 1758. You are speaking of the male side of the Mr. A. Hall, 
 hospital ?— Yes. m. d. , f'.r. c. v, 
 
 1759. That applies to persons of all callings ?— Yes, 
 
 the greatest percentage of them, 186 out of 500, style ^° -^"v- 19 06. 
 themselves labourers. 
 
 1760. What proportion do the grinders bear to thp 
 population 1—1 could not say. In the Medical OflScer 
 of Health's report there is a statement as to the actual 
 number of grinders in Sheffield. 
 
 1761. This proportionate quantity, is it higher than it 
 ought to be consideriag the number of grinders in this 
 population 1—1 should say it is a good deal higher than 
 it should be. 
 
 1762. It is a good deal higher than it should be?— I 
 have here a list of the numbers of cases of phthisis from 
 various trades coming up to my out-patient department 
 at the Royal Hospital per annum. This includes phthisis 
 in a general sense. The average per annum for six years, 
 1891 to 1897, is 5'1 grinders, 3-3 cutlers, and of the other 
 trades — file cutters, handle makers, and silversmiths, each 
 about one. 
 
 1763. Would you again say that that is dispropor- 
 tionate of incidence? — It shows the grinders again to 
 the front. Probably the above numbers multiplied by 
 four would represent the number of each trade that come 
 up to the larger institutions with this disease. 
 
 1764. These are out-patients ; how many do you see in 
 a year ?— 500 to 700. 
 
 1765. As regards secondary tuberculosis — where it is 
 presumably secondary — is there in a large proportion of 
 the grinders' phthisis a strong tendency towards tuber- 
 culosis ?— Yes. 
 
 1766. More often than not 1— Yes. 
 
 1767. Do they work under conditions to favour infec- 
 tion from man to man 1 — Grinders, no, I do not think so. 
 
 1768. Coughing, and spitting 1 — I think not. 
 
 1769. Is there more alcoholism among grinders than 
 in the geaeral popalation? — Not that I know of. 
 
 1770. They are quite a respectable lot ? — I believe they 
 are quite as good as the cutlers. 
 
 1771. Do you consider that wet grinding comss in at 
 all ?-Yes. 
 
 1772. Although it is less than the other, you do not 
 exclude it 1 — No. 
 
 1773. Until we coma to the disease itself, and you 
 have said that on the whole, as D..\ Robertshaw said, 
 the diagnosis is very largely by nsgative characters, out 
 that, as he also told us, the negative points may become 
 accumulatively positive 1 — Yes. 
 
 1774. Would you say that if your knowledge is com- 
 plete — and we cannot be sure of anything without com- 
 plete knowledge — if your knowledge is complete, if you 
 had a person under observation for a sufficiently long 
 time, and you get trustworthy evidence from him and his 
 friends as to the cause of his malady — and I will now 
 confine myself to the first stage only — should you say that 
 it would be difficult to form a differential diagnosis 1 I am 
 suggesting to you points like these — would you consider 
 that the absence of marked wasting, anaemia, the compara- 
 tive absence of fever, a high degree of shortness of 
 breath, a certain amount of dependence on seasons, and a 
 notable degree of illness beyond what physical signs 
 seem to account for, would that in the first stage of 
 grinders' phthisis, enable you to diagnose it from tuber- 
 culous phthisis?— I do not think I could accept that 
 entirely as it stands for grinders' diseases. I should 
 say that the early stages of the grinders' disease 
 is comparatively slow— takes months or years. 
 With the early stages there is no marked difficulty of 
 breathing, a little winter cough, supposed to be a little 
 oronchitis, represents all the trouble the man has for 
 some time, then when it does begin to affect him, the: 
 physical signs— 
 
 1775. The second stage ?— Second stage. In the second 
 stage I should say that the symptoms he complains of 
 are disproportionate to the physical signs to be found. 
 
 1776. {Dr. Leggi) Is that the time when he consults a 
 medical man 1 — Yes. 
 
 1777. {Professor Allbutt.) Pushing my comprehensive 
 question on a little later in the case to the second stage, it 
 would hold good 1 — I think it would meet the condition 
 of the grinder. 
 
 1778. In the first stage, in reference to what the 
 
 G 2 
 
52 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. A. Hall, Chairman said, they are recoverable if they go to 
 M.D.,F.R c.p. another occupation ? — Yes, I think so, in the first stage 
 
 16 Nov, 1906. l'^~9- ^^ *^^ second stage is that true to a less degree 1 
 
 — In a much less degree. I should think they are 
 
 beyond recall. 
 
 1780. Beyond recall. Then at a stage when the 
 patient is curable, diagnosis is not made so easily as I 
 suggested 1 — No, sir, it is largely by knowledge of the 
 trade. 
 
 1781. I have given you complete knowledge of the 
 trade. Supposing you have a general knowledge of the 
 conditions under which the man worked, you get a 
 fairly good history from the man, and you have him 
 under a month's observation, temperature and so on ? — 
 I think you could form a fairly good opinion as to what 
 was the trouble. 
 
 1782. Those are not difficult conditions in practice 1 — 
 They are not difficult. 
 
 1783. Then there is the absence of tubercle ?— And 
 also the absence of signs in the chest. 
 
 1784. I.s there any fever before they become compli- 
 cated with tubercle? — I do not think so. One very 
 seldom gets them under observation for long. 
 
 1785. You do not expect fever ; this would be an 
 important point 1 — Yes. 
 
 1786. We assume there are no tubercle bacilli in the 
 sputum ; is there any characteristic deposit in the 
 sputum, silicious particles or iron particles ? — I do not 
 know — the sputum of chronic bronchial catarrh plus the 
 black of Sheffield smoke. 
 
 ' 1787. Carbonaceous matter. Concerning personal 
 idiosyncrasy 1 — It enters into it to a certain 
 extent. I certainly have records of cases in which 
 fathers and brothers, the whole family, all went to the 
 same trade, and one after another have died quite young 
 from grinders disease. 
 
 1788. Can you tell u3 the contrary case 1 
 
 1789. (Chairman.) It does not necessarily seem con- 
 ' elusive, because you may get a tuberculous family who 
 
 would have died off in the bookbinding trade ?— In saying 
 that, I cannot exclude the reflection that they might have 
 been a tuberculous family, and might have gone off in 
 this manner in any trade. 
 
 1790. (^r. Legcfe.) You said, in answer to Mr. 
 Cunynghame, that you drew a distinction ' between 
 grinders' lung and cutlers' lung ?— Yes. 
 
 1791. Would you take that (producing an illustration) 
 to be a typical example of the condition you would find 
 in a grinders' lung, this nodular and fibrotic condition ? 
 
 —Yes. 
 
 1792. Ho^v will cutlers' lung differ from that post- 
 mortem ? — My impression is that in the cutlers' lung 
 more commonly the nodules are more diffuse. 
 
 ] 79.3. — You do, however, get the nodular condition in 
 the cutler's lung 1 — Yes. 
 
 1 794. And as regards the wet grinder's lung ? — The 
 wet grinder comes in with the dry grinder as a typical 
 grinder's lung. 
 
 179.5. Does the horn and the handle polishers' lung 
 'Contain fibrous nodules too ? — To a certain extent yes, 
 but not like the extensive grinders' fibrosis. 
 
 1796. To the same degree that you would find it in the 
 cutlers' lung ?— I could not say. 
 
 1797. Firstly, you have the grinders' lung, then you 
 have the cutlers' lung in which you say that you will 
 find x>ost mortem more diffused fibrous nodules ?— That 
 is my impression. 
 
 1798. Then have you a third condition in v/hich there 
 is a handle polisher's lung?— I could not distinguish 
 that and say that is a handle maker's lung and is 
 different from a cutler's lung. 
 
 1799. You put the cutlers' lung and the grinders' lung 
 fl,part ?— I put the grinders lung apart and I could not 
 separate the others. 
 
 1800-1. (Professor J llhuti.) What is a cutler ?— A cutler 
 is a man who makes a knife, puts together a knife, a 
 pen knife, pocket knife, etc. A grinder does nothing 
 but grind. The cutler merely puts together what the 
 grinder has done. 
 
 1802. He has no dust to contend with?— The medical 
 officer will tell you. I think it is a little difficult to go 
 further than that, than to say that the . grinders' lung 
 shows the same type as the stone mason's lung and the 
 others are more vaguely fibrous. 
 
 1803. (Dr. Zegge.) If the wet grinder is supposed to 
 
 grind the steel wet, does he get affected ? — He gets it by 
 
 racingt the stone, preparing the surface of the stone to 
 
 use for grinding purposes, it is then that he gets the 
 
 dust. 
 
 1804. If therH is a huge development of dust in that 
 process, it can be taken away by an exhaust fan when 
 the operation is done ? —I should think so. 
 
 (Chairman.) It is not done much at present. 
 
 1805. (Dr. Legge.) Following up that distinction 
 between the grinders' lung and other conditions, now 
 I come to the symptoms. You said that from the 
 description of the symptoms given to you, and having the 
 person under observation and knowing his employment 
 and the absence of tubercle bacilli you could form a 
 good opinion as to whether it was fibrosis or not. You 
 could have a good opinion ? — I said a fair opinion. I 
 was not very clear about it. 
 
 1806. (Chaw-man.) After death from fibrosis of the 
 lungs, could you differentiate by post rrvortem examina- 
 tion the cutlers' lung, the horn polishers' lung, the 
 grinders' lung?— Well, I think possibly at that stage, 
 but I do not care to give an opinion. 
 
 1807. You think however that from those early sjonp- 
 toms you might be able to say even in the case of the 
 handle polisher? — I am not very clear about the handle 
 people. 
 
 1808. The people who are doing the horn, pearl and 
 bone ?— That includes the cutlers. Cutlers who are 
 working in these dusts as well. 
 
 1809. Knowing how the Workmen's Compensation 
 Bill, so far as diseases are concerned, is to be worked, by 
 the certifying surgeon examining a man and stating 
 whether his condition is due to his employment, and in 
 case of dispute an appeal to a medical referee who 
 would have special skill and whose word would be final, 
 do you think there is difficulty, serious difi[lculty, in the 
 matter of diagnosis if fibrosis of the lungs in grinding 
 and cutlery were scheduled ?— In the early stages I do. 
 
 1810. When he comes to see a medical man, the com- 
 mencement of the second stage ?— No, I do not think 
 there would be. One gets to recognise these cases 
 readily. When they walk into the out-patients' depart- 
 ment they are a type which is quite characteristic 
 once they have got to the stage of having to begin to 
 knock under at all. In the earlier stages one does not 
 often see them. They do not come under treatment, 
 and they would be very difficult to be sure of. 
 
 1811. You have not heard of any employer in the 
 town asking a medical man to examine all his workmen 
 to see how far they are affected ? — No. 
 
 1812. In post mortem examination you have said that 
 this grinder's lung can be always recognised ?— Yes. 
 
 1813. And I take it that in the case of cutler's lung 
 you cannot have the same certainty ?— No. 
 
 _ 1814. (Professor Allbutt.) Although there may be a 
 differential diagnosis between non-tuberculous andtuber- 
 culous phthisis, you are not prepared to say that there 
 would be any differential diagnosis between the varieties 
 of the non-tuberculous phthisis ?— No, I do not think that 
 would be possible. 
 
 1815. At what stage do you think sputum could be 
 got ?— Sputum is quite an early feature, and I should say 
 a very constant one. Even when a man has very little 
 symptoms he will spit in the early morning. 
 
 1816. Sputum could be taken at a very early stage ' — 
 Yes. 
 
 1817. That would be very important ; I am glad you 
 can give us a strong lead about that. Then there is one 
 point I omitted to ask you as concerning ordinary 
 emphysema and bronchitis. Dr. Robertshaw told us 
 tnat it was not more prevalent here than in most places ? 
 —Not more prevalent. Sometimes there is a compensa- 
 tory emphysema in those cases of fibrosis, which often 
 leads to the appearance of emphysema when often the 
 disease is really fibrosis. 
 
 1818. He said he thought it was a difficulty rather on 
 paper than m practice ?— It is a difficulty in finding out 
 the physical signs. 
 
 1819. As to trade eczemas of one or two kinds'— 
 In certain branches of the silver plating trades a 
 certain small number of cases of eczema of the hands 
 occurs, for instance, m the polishing of articles with 
 scratch brushes, using water or sour beer or other 
 liquids of that character. They get an eczema of the 
 hands, often not sufficient to prevent them working, 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 53 
 
 %Bt in some cases disabling them for consider- 
 sable perisds from their work. I am not able to say 
 "that itkis precisely coiaes from the use of scratch brush- 
 dng. I attribute it rather to the working in the wet. 
 It might be prevented by the use of gloves. 
 
 1820. {Chairman)) Might it not also be that laun- 
 •dresses and maids cleaning doorsteps also get the same 
 ihing '! — Yes, servants and charwomen. 
 
 1821. And there is nothing specially characteristic be- 
 ■itween the different eczemas caught by the people who 
 «,re scratch brushing and that of the people who are 
 ^oing laundry work T— No. 
 
 1822. It is all one disease 1—1 believe so. 
 
 Mr. A. Hall, 
 
 M.D.,F.E.C.P. 
 
 1823. Dr. Legge.) Is there any idiosyncrasy so that 
 some ha-(-e to give up the employment altogether 1 — Yes, 16 Nov. 
 undoubtedly. 
 
 1824. {Professor Allhutt.) Would the use of an oleagi- 
 nous wash prevent it ?— It might help, but I do not think 
 it is sufficient alone. 
 
 _ ] 825. {Chairman.) It is not brought on by any othsr 
 diseases, such as syphilitic diseases or any other kind ? — 
 Oh, no, not at all. 
 
 Mr. Haeold Scuefield, M.D., CM. called and examined. 
 
 1826. {Chairman) You are Medical Officer of Health 
 rfor Sheffield 1—1 am. 
 
 1827- KD., of Edinburgh, and CM. ■?— Yes. 
 
 1828. How long have you been Medical Officer of 
 .Health 1— Three years. 
 
 1829. As Medical Officer of Health of this city it is, 
 of course, your duty to pay particular attention to the 
 iealth of the city 1— Yes. 
 
 1830. And amongst other questions to that of indus- 
 trial phthisis ?— Yes. 
 
 1831. You hand in three reports, three annual reports 
 -oi the health of the city of Sheffield for the years 1903, 
 1904, and 1905, the first of these, by Doctor John Eobert- 
 son, late Medical Officer of Health, and the last two by 
 
 ;yourself 1 — Yes. 
 
 1832. There are certain portions of these reports to 
 "which you desire to call our attention ? — Yes. In the 
 
 1903 Report, from page 48 to the last paragraph but two 
 on page 50 ; the 1904 Eeport, page 8, paragraph 7, down 
 "to page 14, and also pages 18 and 19, and i)age 47 ; and 
 rthe 1905 Eeport, bottom of page 8 to the middle of page 
 i2, and the tables on page 45. 
 
 1833. ISTow, I had better first ask from a general point 
 •of view the character of this disease. Are you ofTTpmion 
 that there is a difference between what may be called 
 fibroid phthisis and tubercular phthisis, which, though 
 .■somewhat difficult to distinguish in the first stages, is at 
 later stages distinguishable by a, medical man sufficiently 
 acquainted with the history of the case? — I should not 
 have thought so. But I do not think my opinion on the 
 .-subject is of much value. 
 
 1834. You think there would be a difficulty 1 — I 
 should have thought there was great difficulty in dis- 
 tinguishing. 
 
 1835. A great difficulty in distinguishing 1 — Yes. But 
 I do not want to press that. I am not a hospital physi- 
 cian. 
 
 1836. I want your opinion. You are an M.D. You 
 would be inclined to thmk there is some difficulty even 
 .at later stages? — I think it would be difficult. My 
 point is this ; If you have a man working at an occupa- 
 tion which is known to produce a damaging effect on 
 the lung, such as is the case with a grinder, you cannot 
 ■exclude the fact that a certain number of such persons 
 would have developed consumption whether they had 
 been grinders or not, and, therefore, you cannot say 
 in all cases whether it was the grinders' disease or the 
 tubercular mischief which came first. What I 
 mean is, you may get a man in the first stage of tuber- 
 cular phthisis working as a grinder. It would be hardly 
 fair to class the, whole of his symptoms as if they were 
 •due to grinders' phthisis. On the other hand, it is also 
 fair to say that fibroid phthisis may pave the way for 
 tubercular phthisis. I believe it is the case that nearly 
 all cases of fibroid phthisis, if they live long enough, 
 become tubercular. 
 
 1837. The reflection cuts both ways % — Yes. 
 
 1838. But still we have had in other cases elsewhere 
 the opinion that if a case is sufficiently known, and the 
 circumstances attending it are sufficiently known, 
 you can distinguish at later stages ? — I should think you 
 would set merely a probability. My point is this — it is 
 not like an accident. You can say that a certain injury 
 is caused by an accident. 
 
 1839. It is not like a beam falling on a man's head ? — 
 I agree. 
 
 1840. After death, when you could examine the 
 iung, they say you would be able to tell for certain 
 by seeing the particles in the lung in the case of fibroid 
 phthisis 1 — You would be able to know that there were 
 
 particles in the lung got from the man's occupation, but 
 if there were also tubercular cavities you would not be 
 able to say with certainty which began the trouble. Any 
 man who works in stone dust will have some particles in 
 his lungs. 
 
 1841. You would not put too much weight alone on 
 post-mortem examinations, because it would be quite 
 possible there might be particles in the lung, and yet 
 that tubercular consumption had really done most of the 
 evil?- Yes. 
 
 1 842. Too much weight, therefore, must not be laid on 
 that conclusion alone — I was perhaps too much impi essed 
 with the argument? — On the other band, you might get 
 a lung with a considerable amount of stone fibrosis, 
 that IS fibroid phthisis, wiiich, after having become 
 tubercular, is riddled considerably with tubercular 
 cavities. The tubercular mischief in such a case 
 coming on the top of the other might make one think 
 that more mischief was due to the tuberculosis than 
 really was the case. The lung might have beeu spoiled 
 as a lung by grinders' phthisis, but on the top of that 
 you may have cavities that have removed the grinders' 
 disease to some extent. 
 
 1843. At all events, the conclusion you draw is that 
 there must always be some difficulty in an attempt, 
 where a man has died of phthisis, definitely to put it 
 down to the occupation or to other causes ? — I think so. 
 
 1844. That is your considered opinion ? — That is my 
 opinion. I have rather in view the conflict of evidence 
 among medical men in cases of accident at present, and I 
 shudder to think what it would be if there was an 
 inquiry to determine the exact cause of death in 
 phthisis. 
 
 1845. But in the event of this disease being put in 
 the Third Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation 
 Bill, it would be inevitable apparently to have some 
 conflict of that sort ? — Yes. 
 
 1846. You say tiiat that difficulty presents itself to 
 your mind? — I don't see how a fair conclusion can be 
 arrived at. 
 
 1847. I will not go into the symptoms of this disease, 
 you have come chiefly to deal with the mortality statistics 
 of the matter. In your 0"vvn way can you now give us 
 some statistical information. Are you able from the 
 data in your possession to give us some general idea 
 of the extent of phthisis in Sheffield, and particularly 
 amongst the grinders ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 1848. The town of Sheffield is, in your opinion, not par- 
 ticularly affected with the scourge of consumption above 
 other towns in the Kingdom ?— I would go further than 
 that. I think that naturally the tendency to phthisis in 
 Sheffield — the tendency of the population to have 
 phthisis — is less than in other places. I base that on the 
 fact that the mortality from phthisis amongst women is 
 less than it is in the rest of England, and that the 
 mortality among males in Sheffield is less than it is in 
 the rest of England up to the age of 35. 
 
 1849. But taking all ages into account, it is higher, is 
 it, than the rest of England ?— From the age of 35 on to 
 the end of life, the mortality in Sheffield among males 
 is very much higher than it is in the rest of England. 
 For example, if you take the age period from 45 to 65, 
 page 9, 1904 Eeport, Table B, from 45 to 65 the death 
 rate in Sheffield among males is twice as much as it is 
 in England and Wales. Page 10 gives the thing fairly 
 shortly. At the top of page 10 it is stated "In England and 
 Wales a man is half as likely again to die from phthisis 
 as a woman, but in Sheffield a man is more than twice 
 as likely to die from phthisis as a woman. For every 
 fifteen men who die in England and Wales from phthisis 
 18 men die in Sheffield, but for every ten women who 
 
 Mr.B. 
 Scurfkld, 
 M.D,, CM. 
 
&4 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. H. 
 
 Scurfleld, 
 M.D., CM. 
 
 16 Nov- 1906 
 
 die from plithisis in England and Wales only eight 
 women die in Sheffield." 
 
 1850. The point of your observation is that there is a 
 very marked difference in Sheffield between the men 
 and the women, more marked than there is for the 
 average of England, and also that there is a marked 
 increase in the deaths from phthisis in Sheffield when 
 once the age of 35 for males is reached 1 — Yes. 
 
 1851. Those are the two points, and there is also an 
 increase among females 1 — In the case of females, when 
 you get up to a higher age, when you get up to the age 
 of 55 and onwards, there is an increase in Sheffield 
 females as compared with England. 
 
 1852. What is the reason for that, they don't work in 
 this grinding^ — I do not attribute it to the grinding only, 
 I attribute it partly to working in dusty workshops. 
 Cutlers' shops are full of dust. Up to the age of 
 35 or so the male in Sheffield is not specially liable, but 
 the man's occupation is the thing that causes consump- 
 tion. If he gets consumption, then the factor of infection 
 may come in at a later stage as regards his womenkind. 
 
 1853. He may infect the woman?— He may infect his 
 wife. I would expect the woman to be infected 
 at a later period than the man. I think it is 
 possible that the inoraase amongst women in Sheffield 
 over fifty-five may be partly due to occupation and partly 
 due to infection from the men who have developed it at 
 about forty. 
 
 1854. At all events, there is a large proportion of 
 deaths from phthisis in ;-heffield amongst men over 
 35 ; and part of these you attribute to occupa- 
 tion ? — Yes, my conclusion is that during the last tew 
 years there have been on the average 118 men killed 
 every year by the industrial conditions of Sheffield 
 alone. You must remember that there are only 500 
 deaths from consumption in the year at all ages. 
 
 1855. And out of these you would put 118 as due to 
 industrial conditions 1 — As due to the difference 
 between the industrial conditions of Sheffield and 
 England and over and above those that would die 
 if the industrial CDnditions were the same as in 
 England. It is the excess due to the special indus- 
 trial conditions of Sheffield. What that is founded on 
 is shown on page 10, paragraph 7 : "In Sheffield the 
 annual average number of deaths from consumption 
 amongst females over 25 years of age during the years 
 1898 to 1903 was 115, and amongst males over 25 years 
 of age was 310. In England the corresponding figures 
 were 12,386 for females and 18,450 for males. If the 
 proportion of female to male deaths had been 
 the same as in England there would have been 
 only 192 male deaths to correspond to the 115 female 
 deaths. The number recorded was, however, 310. It is, 
 therefore, fair to assume that the special industrial con- 
 ditions of Sheffield are so unfavourable as to cause 118 
 male deaths from consumption every year over and above 
 the number of male deaths that would occur under the 
 ordinary industrial conditions prevailing in England." 
 In using the word " industrial," lam using it in the very 
 widest sense as embracing all sorts of occupations, not in 
 the narrow sense of industries coming under the Factory 
 Acts. 
 
 1856-7. What are those special occupations which you 
 consider deserving of attention as accounting for this 
 mortality? — Grinders, cutlers, file cutters, and also, I 
 think, to a lesser degree, haft and scale cutters. 
 
 1858. Take the grinders first of all; can you give us some 
 idea of the peculiar dangers to which the grinding trade 
 is exposed, distinguishing wet and dry 1 — The figures on 
 page 10 of the 1905 Report, Table A, show that the death 
 rate amongst grinders from phthisis is more than five 
 times that of the ordinary male in Sheffield. 
 
 1859. What are the respective numbers 1 — 3,375 
 grinders. 
 
 1860. How many of these died from phthisis ? — Forty- 
 eight died from phthisis in 1904. 
 
 1861. What was the death rate from phthisis among 
 grinders over 20 years of age 1— It was 14'2. 
 
 1862. What was the death rate from phthisis amongst 
 males generally in Sheffield ?— Amongst males over 20 
 years of age in Sheffield the similar death rate is 27, so 
 that the rate amongst grinders is nearly five times larger 
 than it ought to be. 
 
 1863. What are figures for respiratory diseases ?— The 
 death rate from respiratory diseases amongst grinders ia 
 nearly three times as large as that of the average male 
 over 20 years of age in Sheffield, as shown by the same 
 
 table. The death rate amongst grinders froni respiratory 
 diseases is 5-9, as compared with 2 in Sheffield generally 
 and 17 in England. 
 
 1864. Are you able to account for these differences im 
 figures in any other way than by the dust the grinders, 
 inhale ?— I can only account for it by that. 
 
 1863. Not from any other cause, draughts, or anything; 
 that the grinders are subjected to ; it is the dust you 
 chiefly attribute it to. Is there no other trade danger ?: 
 — I put my opinion in the second paragraph after the- 
 table. In this second paragraph after the table, I 
 suggest as an explanation— but before I come to that let- 
 Die read the paragraph which immediately follows the 
 table, which puts in concise form what the table shows :: 
 " It will be noticed in the above table that the death' 
 rate of cutlers trom phthisis is nearly three times that 
 of the average male in Sheffield, and that the death 
 rate from respiratory diseases among cutlers is more 
 tban five times that of the average male • also that in 
 the case of grinders, the death rate from phthisis is more^ 
 than five times, and the death rate from respiratory 
 diseases is nearly three times that of the average male in 
 Sheffield." 
 
 1866. To what cause do you attribute those differ- 
 ences 1— That brings me to the second paragraph of the 
 table oil page 10 of this same Report of 1905, where I 
 suggest as an explanation, " that while grinders are- 
 liable to inhale dust which injures the lungs and causes 
 fibroid disease, which frequently becomes tubercular,, 
 the comparative freedom of grinders from respiratory 
 diseases, as compared with cutlers, is due to the fact that" 
 the grinders woik in a much less foul atmosphere. The- 
 ' hulls ' in which grinders work are practically open-air 
 sheds." 
 
 1867. In the case of the cutlers, is the disease of the 
 respiratory organs due considerably to the confined 
 places in which they work — is it due to dust or the- 
 foul air that they breathe ?— Partly to dust, partly to foul 
 air. 
 
 1868. So that part of the cutler's special disease would, 
 be due to causes which are common in other trades — 
 cotton mills, for instance?— Common to such people as- 
 tailors who work in bad atmosphere. 
 
 1869 You would not in cutlers put it all down to» 
 dust 1 — I should put it down to both. 
 
 1870. For the reasons you have explained, in the case: 
 of cutlers it is not due to dust entirely? — Cutlers have-- 
 a bad atmosphere as well as dust. Grinders have a. 
 much worsa dust than cutlers, but they have not a bad 
 atmosphere. 
 
 1871. In the case of cutlers you would not call it so 
 distinctly a trade disease as the fibroid phthisis in the 
 case of the grinders ? — Exactly. 
 
 1872. What is the exact nature of the cutler's work ?" 
 — I have put a definition of the word " cutler " at the end. 
 of page 9, which, I think, is fairly accurate, " The term 
 ' cutler ' applies t j workmen who put together the various 
 parts of table-knives, pen and pocket knives, etc., and 
 give a final finish to these articles. The finishing is don& 
 by means of glazers, emery wheels, and wheels composed |j| 
 of linen ; and the dust given off varies according to th* tif! 
 composition of the article worked, e.g., in the finishing ' 
 of a pearl-handled penknife the dust is composed of 
 steel, brass, pearl, and emery." According to what i» 
 worked at, the dust varies very much. Everybody who 
 works in the cutlers' shop is exposed to the dust, although 
 there may not be many wheels at work. 'They do not 
 shut off the grinding wheels from the rest of the shop. 
 
 1873. Have you any other remarks to make witk 
 regard to the mortality statistics ?— The general death 
 rates are given in that table. On page 10, 1905- 
 Report. The death rate for a cutler over twenty is 43'2: 
 per 1,000 from all causes, whereas the death rate for an 
 ordinary male in Sheffield is only 15-8. 'The general sjj 
 death rate of cutlers is therefore two and a-half times- 
 that of the ordinary Sheffield male. 
 
 1874. Can you now give us any life statistics as opposed 
 to mortality statistics, if I may put it in that way 1— 
 How do you mean exactly ? 
 
 1875. Can you give us any statistics showing the rela- 
 tive length of life of the grinder as compared with the 
 ordinary population, how much shorter it would be ?— 
 I have no statistics of that. 
 
 1876. There does not seem to be any possibility of 
 obtaining them ? — I could easily get out the ages of all 
 the grinders at death. 
 
 1877. And at what average age a grinder died aa com' 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 5S 
 
 pared with the average age of a person in another 
 ■occupation 1 — I do not think there would be any diffi- 
 «ulty in getting the information from the trades union 
 officials or the friendly societies. 
 
 1878. You would be nrepared to find that the average 
 life of a grinder woufd be shorter than that of an 
 ■ordinary man 1 — ^Yes, because the death rate is two and 
 
 a half times as large. That must mean a great shorten- 
 ing of life. 
 
 1879. You could not do it from mathematics, there 
 are other considerations, you would have to do it 
 from statistics ?— Yes, there are many fallacies. A man 
 may be a grinder, and he may go into the workhouse 
 ^f ter he has been a hawker for two or three years. He 
 
 may-describe himself as a hawker, and at death he might 
 'ti)e classed as a hawker. But I should think one would 
 get easily from the friendly societies or the trades unions 
 the age to which a grinder goes on working. 
 
 1880. At any rate, you have not now any figures tend- 
 ing to show that grinders do not live beyond a certain 
 age if they carried on their profession up to it 1 — I have 
 them in the office. It is only a question of going 
 through the deaths of grinders. It would be possible 
 probably to arrive at a computation of the age to which 
 the average grinder lives if I were to go into the figures, 
 ^nd I should be very glad to do that and send the 
 information on. 
 
 1881. Could you give us an idea of the proportion of 
 igrinders in any given place who may be presumed to be 
 suffering from this disease — either incipient phthisis or 
 diseases of the respiratory organs, any figures to show 
 -.that. You might be able to help us with figures from 
 that point of view ?— I think that among the ordinary 
 population, males, the proportion would be one consump- 
 tive to about 200 of the population, and that among 
 .grinders it would be probably five times as great — taking 
 it simply by the death rate. According to the death rate 
 I should expect of 200 Sheffield people that one would 
 'be suffering from consumption, whereas of 200 grinders 
 I should expect to find five. 
 
 1882. — Well, now, have you had sufficient experience of 
 the city to say whether there are at present working as 
 grinders in these factories a number of men whom you 
 Tvould like to suspend from that employment if you 
 ■could stop them 1 — ^I could not say. I think it is mostly 
 fairly heavy work, and when a man gets to an advanced 
 .stage of the disease, and is getting to the stage when he 
 ds scattering the tubercle bacilli about, he will not be 
 :at work. 
 
 1883. Of those who are at work, are there a number 
 ■who ought to be suspended from it on account of their 
 being in such a condition ; that if they go on longer they 
 -will speedily die?— I cannot say as to that. I fancy 
 i;hat the fact of their being unable to carry out the work 
 will st«p them. 
 
 1884. If this phthisis were scheduled under the Act, 
 I suppose it would cause a cessation from work, or their 
 being prevented from working in the cases of a con- 
 siderable number of grinders ? — I suppose it would, but 
 ■whether that would be much good to them or not I do 
 not know. 
 
 1885. Perhaps those in the trade can say better. You are 
 not able to throw light on the question whether it would 
 -cause considerable suspension of work amongst those 
 •employed at present ]— No. 
 
 1886. You could not say whether there would or would 
 not be a number of men who would have to be sus- 
 pended from employment if this disease was scheduled ; 
 what proportion of men it would be necessary to suspend 1 
 — I do not know what the regulation would be as to 
 suspending. 
 
 1887. Is it your opinion that after a few years' work a 
 large number of those employed would be found to be 
 touched more or less with fibroid phthisis 1 — I think 
 that would be the case ; a very large p'-oportion indeed. 
 That is using the word " touched " in the widest sense. 
 
 1888. A number of those so touched would not be 
 sufficiently injured to prevent them continuing their 
 •employment 1— Quite so. I think it would be very diffi- 
 ■cult to define when fibroid phthisis actually begins. 
 
 1889. Would it be your opinion that, if the disease 
 "were scheduled, it might be necessary to attach conditio n 
 to the schedule with the view of preventing wholesale 
 cessation of work on the part of a large number of men 1 
 -Yes. 
 
 1890. You think that the scheduling of this disease 
 iwould lead to wholesale dismissals ? — An employer would 
 
 be not unlikely, if this disease were scheduled, to ]ifj._ q 
 
 discharge the whole of his employees and get a new lot Scurfiel'd, 
 
 and have them medically examined. My point is this, m.d., cm. 
 up to the present time the conditions of the 
 
 that 
 
 occupation have "been such that any man who has ^^ Nov. 1906. 
 worked as a grinder will be extremely likely to have the 
 first symptoms and signs of grinders' phthisis. There- 
 fore, an employer acting only for his own interest would 
 discharge his old grinders and only re-engage or keep on 
 those who had been at work as grinders for a very snort 
 period. 
 
 1891. To prevent that the only plan apparently would 
 be to schedule the disease as regards those who enter 
 the trade for the first time after some fixed period, and 
 to treat those already in it in some special and specified 
 manner 1 — Yes. 
 
 1892. And under some very special conditions 1 — Yes. 
 
 1893. You see the conclusion, and in your opinion. 
 Dr. Scurfield, it would be a doubtful benefit possibly for 
 the men themselves to put the disease down at once in 
 the schedule now, and without any qualification what- 
 ever ; it would be a very doubtful benefit for the men if 
 it were to apply to all men now in the trade as well as 
 those who should join it 1 — I should think so. 
 
 1894. It might work considerable hardship amongst 
 the men who are already in the trade 1 — It might if 
 retrospective. 
 
 1895. Have you any other remarks. I suppose the 
 trade is a great deal improved as far as health is con- 
 cerned in your opinion, as far as your observation goes, 
 speaking of the last fifteen or twe ity years 1 — I have 
 only had experience of three years. 
 
 1896. By hearsay you have been able to g ither that 
 there is some improvement 1 — I do not know that there 
 is any improvement. Most of the cutlers' shops are old 
 buildings, and as far as I know thsy are the same as 
 they were twenty years ago. The e is no ventiktion for 
 a cutler's shop. The ordinary ventilation is simply a 
 casement window, and of course if one person out of 
 twenty objects to the casement window bJn,' 
 opened it is shut, so that there is no ventilation. 
 I should say that it would be absolutely necessary for the 
 purpose of getting any improvement to have some system 
 of mechanical ventilation in the cutlers' shops — fans and 
 warming of the air. 
 
 1897. Then as regards grinders, the most dangerous 
 operation that they do is the rasing of the stones 1 — The 
 wet grinders, yes. 
 
 1898. The dry grinders, do they rase the stones 1 — The 
 dry grinders are exposed to the dry dust the whole time. 
 The rasing of the stones is dry grinding done by a wet 
 grinder. There are some men who do nothing but dry 
 grinding, while the wet grinders only do dry grinding 
 when they rase the stones. 
 
 1899. You have been in a fair number of factories ] — 
 Not very many. 
 
 1900. Do you think upon the whole that as much is 
 done in the grinders' shops as might be done in the way 
 of fans and ventilation ?— I do not think so. 
 
 1901. You think more stringent rules are required, and 
 more measures ought to be taken, in fact, to clear away 
 the dust? — Yes. 
 
 1902. Have you any views as to the best method of 
 clearing away the dust 1 — I have been into factories, and 
 I have been greatly surprised at the want of attention 
 apparently both on the part of men and employers as to 
 the efficient use of the hood and fan. I have a para- 
 graph with regard to this on page 12, 1905 Reports 
 '• Even as regards the dusty occupations which are 
 known to be dangerous, there is a considerable 
 amount of indifference shown by both employers 
 and employed. In some cases no ingenuity is exer- 
 cised to provide a hood and shaft of a shape and 
 type well adapted for removing the dust from the 
 grinding wheel ; in others the fan is out of order, and no 
 trouble is taken to put it right ; in other cases, again, the 
 workman does not trouble to use the hood which is pro- 
 vided." I think there is one thing that has struck me 
 more particularly in many cases — it is the bad fit of the 
 hood. In many cases it does not seem as if the wheel 
 was as much covered in as it might be, but that is a 
 thing for a practical man to say how far it can be 
 covered in. 
 
 1903. Have you seen any attempt to use magnetic 
 arrangements to take the steel away 1 — No. 
 
 1904. Is it the steel or the stone dust that does the 
 most harm 1 — I should think the steel. Of course, they 
 
5g 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. fl. 
 
 ScnrfUld, 
 M.D., CM. 
 
 16 Nov. 1906, 
 
 are both bad. I should think it would be difficult to di3- 
 tinguish where you have got a mixture. What I was 
 saying about the ventilation was that I think the only 
 means would be mechanical ventilation mth warming 
 of the air. 
 
 1905. As to phthisis in Sheffield, have you any further 
 suggestions or remarks ? — I do not think that I have 
 anything to add to my reports, which contain my views. 
 There are a lot of bad conditions in Sheffield which 
 m.ight lead to phthisis, such as back-to-back houses and 
 other bad conditions ; bad home conditions among the 
 poorer classes of the population. 
 
 1906. But as you have pointed out to us, these con- 
 ditions, bad as they are, do not seem to account for the 
 statistics you have given us 1 — Those bad conditions 
 would be more likely to affect women than men, and I 
 have pointed out that phthisis is not common among 
 women in Sheffield. 
 
 1907. Those bad conditions do not seem to produce a 
 state of phthisis, a severe state of phthisis, apart from 
 industry '\ — There is something in Sheffield to counter- 
 balance them. What that something is I have suggested 
 in one of these reports. It is page 10 of the 1904 
 Report, paragraph 3, which I had better read : " The 
 low death rate from phthisis in Sheffield among men up 
 to a certain age and among women at nearly all ages 
 appears to indicate that Sheffield has natural advantages 
 which work against the spread of this disease. No 
 doubt the pure air from the moors, enabled by the 
 many hills on which the town is built to circulate more 
 freely round the houses than is the case with a town 
 built on tne flat, and a tolera ily porous su bsoil are 
 favourable factors. It must also be remembered that 
 Sheffield, more than is the case with other towns, 
 includes within its boundaries the healthy residential 
 districts. These considerations help to counterbalance 
 the effect of bad housing conditions which exist in parts 
 of the city, but on the other hand they undoubtedly 
 aggravate the gravity of the fact that the death rate 
 among men at the wage-earning period of life is so high. 
 The low death rate among women and youths shows 
 that we must look to industrial conditions rather than 
 to home conditions for an explanation." I may add 
 that the more I reflect upon it I can find no reason for 
 
 this abnormal amount of phthisis ansongst the' males e*' 
 Shefl3eld other than the causes due to their occupations 
 190H. Have you got any statistics, to show the differ- 
 ence between deaths from phthisis in Sheffield amongst, 
 persons, such as shopkeepers, for instance, and niinera ! 
 —On page 10 of the 1905 Eeport there are statistics as- 
 to the ordinary males over twenty years of age in 
 Sheffield. 
 
 1909. Have you any statistics of other special occupa- 
 tions, such as shopkeepers ?— In Table B, page 11, of 
 J P05 Report, you will see I have got silversmiths; thet 
 mortality amongst the various branches of the silver 
 trade. 
 
 1910. Can you show us the figures of phthisis in any 
 definite occupation in Sheffield in order to compare it. 
 with the figures for phthisis in grinders ? — Table B,, 
 page 11, of 1905 Report, as to silver- working. The sum- 
 mary at the bottom shows the death-rate for the years. 
 1900-1904, and the average for the five years is 21 2 as- 
 to all causes, 5'0 for phthisis, and 2'8 for respira- 
 tory diseases ; as compared with in the case of grinders^ 
 respectively 33"8, 14"2, and 5'9 and as compared in thfr 
 case of the cutlers with respectively 43'2, 8"0, and ll"2p 
 and in the case of file cutters with respectively 34.1,. 
 7'0 and 3'2. 
 
 1911. Would you say that the 1905 figures you have 
 given us are average figures 1 — Of course, ia that Table A 
 on page 10 of 1905 Report, the 2,500 cutlers, 3,375- 
 grinders, and 1,850 file cutters, are very small popula- 
 tions to deal with, but I have only just got those popula- 
 tions from the Trades Union secretaries during this year,, 
 and they will vary from year to year, and I shall have 
 to get the figures again for the year 1906, so that it wilE 
 only be at the end of two or three years that one will 
 get reliable results. 
 
 1912. If somebody had to insure these men against ' 
 illness, it would amount to a considerable sum as com- 
 pared with wages ? — Yes. 
 
 1913-29. In your opinion, the element of danger does 
 enter into the wage question ? — Officials of the friendly 
 societies and trade unions know quite well that the^ 
 occupation of a grinder, and more especially that of a, 
 dry grinder, is a dangerous occupation. 
 
 SEVENTH DAY. 
 
 Friday, 2'ird November 1906. 
 
 MEMBERS PEBSENT: 
 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, m.p. (filiairman). 
 
 Mr. Henry Cuntnghame, c.b. I Mr. T. M. Leggb, m.d. 
 
 Professor Clifford Allbott, e.R.s. | Mr. T. E. BETTA>-r {Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. H. T. BiTTLiN, F.II.C.S., D.C.L., called in, and examined. 
 
 Mr. H. T. 1930. {Chairman.) Yoai have been good enough to 
 
 Butlin, ofier to give evidence to us on the subject of chimney- 
 
 F.E.C.S., sweeps' cancer. Have you had a good deal of experi- 
 
 r. c.L. enoe in that disease ?L_Yes. Of course, I have not seen 
 
 „ many cases myself lately, because I have ceased to 
 
 23 Nov. 1906. ^^.^gjj^ st_ Bartholomew's Hospital. I am consulting 
 surgeon now, and not in regular practice there. 
 
 1931. During a long period of years have you come 
 across a number of cases? — Yes. 
 
 1932. Do you think the disease continues now with 
 equal prevalence?—! have taken the precaution to get 
 the latest statistics from Dr. Tatham, dated the 15th 
 November, 1906. May I read his letter? " My dear 
 Mr. Butlin, I am very glad to' be able to send you the 
 most recent^-and, indeed, hitherto unpublished- 
 statistics of cancer mortality among chimney sweeps in 
 Entrland and Wales. You are doubtless aware that 
 
 chimney sweeps have for many years past been more 
 liable to cancer than have males of any other occupa- 
 tion. In the three years 1900-1-2, among chimney 
 sweeps in actual employment as such, at ages 26-65, the 
 comparative mortality figure from cancer was 136, as 
 compared with 53 among males of the same age in all ■ 
 other occupations." I may say the general mortality 
 of males from cancer is put down at 63 : 10 years ago 
 it was put down at 44. 
 
 1933. Sixty- three in how many would that be?'— I 
 suppose 63 per 1,000. These figures I should think are 
 44 per 1,000 of deaths from cancer in males generally, 
 and it has now gone up to 63. 
 
 1934. And among chimney sweeps the mortality ii 
 what ?— 136. " In the three years 1890-1-2 "-—that is, 
 10 years previously — " the comparative mortality figure 
 had been ISO. Among ohimoiey sweeps of the-, same 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 57 
 
 a,g«, but including retired as well as actually employed 
 males, the comparative mortality figure in 1900-1-2 
 was 152, agadnst 68 amonk all occupied and retired 
 males." 
 
 1935. {Dr. Zegge.) But that is a comparative mor- 
 tality figure, is it net? — That is a comparative mor- 
 tality figure. 
 
 1936. {Chairman.) Is this form of cancer distinguish- 
 able from cancer that prevails amongst the general 
 population? — The old chimney-sweeps' cancer, as it was 
 ■called, was cancer of the scrotum. Would you care to 
 iee a picture of it, because I have two here, which will 
 give some idea of it. These are typical cases of 
 Kihimney-sweeps' cancer {exhibiting same). 
 
 1937. Do precisely similar symptoms appear in 
 persons other than chimney sweeps? — ^Yes, the same 
 form of cancer is not at all infrequent, but it is not at 
 all frequent in the scrotum of other people. 
 
 1938-9. Do chimney sweeps contract this cancer in 
 •other parts of the body ? — ^Yes, on the surface parts — 
 for instance, on the face and on thei lip, inside the 
 mouth, on iiie tongue and palate, and other parts of 
 the body, and they get it in the oesophagus and 
 stomach, and in the bowels. Whether it is due to soot 
 or not so far down I cannot say. I should say it is 
 due as much to alcoholism as soot. 
 
 1940. If you. had a man before you suilering from 
 cancer, and you did not know his occupation, could you 
 say with any certainty whether it was chimney-sweeps' 
 cancer or not 1 — I might be able toi by other marks upon 
 Tiim. For instance, if it was on the scrotum, and he 
 had these black marks and warts and so on, one would 
 instantly come to the conclusion, and almost invariably 
 rightly, that he was a chimney sweep. 
 
 1941. And that the disease was due to his employ- 
 ment ? — Yes. 
 
 1942. The disease, of course, is of gradual growth, is 
 mot it ?— Yes. 
 
 1943. And it may become greater in intensity over a 
 period of many months, I suppose? — ^Yes. 
 
 1944. Or even years ? — ^Yes, a year or two. 
 
 1945i So that a man may have contracted the disease, 
 and be suffering from it in its initial stages, and not 
 he incapacitated for work for some time? — He might 
 not be incapacitated for work for many months. 
 
 1946. What would be the longest period before he 
 would be incapacitated ? — ^I do not think I have any 
 statistics which would be reliable as to that, far this 
 reason, that they have warts upon the scrotum for 
 perhaps 10, 15, or 20 years, and they themselves are so 
 ■careless that they really could not tell when the warts 
 began to be cancerous. It is not easy for anybody to 
 tell. It may have been going on for four or five years ; 
 as a rule, it is a tolerably slow disease. May I point 
 •out another thing which, of course, does not appear 
 in the Government statistics ? There are no statistics 
 to show how many sweeps suffer from chimney-sweeps' 
 ■cancer and are cured of it by operation. It is amen- 
 able to operation, provided it is taken in the compara- 
 tively early stages. Operations are then very suc- 
 •cessful. 
 
 1947. Why does this occupation particularly give rise 
 to cancer? — Probably owing to the effect which the 
 ■constant application of soot to the surface produces. 
 It produces irritation, and that irritation results in 
 the formation of little warts. Then the soot gets rubbed 
 into the warts. I do not believe, and I do not think 
 it is believed by anybody, that there is anything can- 
 cerous in the soot itself, but the soot prepares the sikin 
 of the body for cancer. That is our theory. 
 
 1948. Do you think it can be prevented by greater 
 cleanliness ?— -It is generally supposed that chimney- 
 ■sweeps' cancer does not occur in any other country, 
 and some years ago I took -a great deal of trouble to 
 find out. There were not, 10 years ago, any general 
 statistics published in any other country like those 
 •published here. There were none published for France, 
 Germany, Holland, or Belgium — ^in fact, for any 
 European country. Therefore I was obliged to 
 take, special measures in order to find out. 1 looked 
 at literature, and I only found one case of chimney- 
 sweeps' can.cer by Dr. Zoude many years ago. Then I 
 went to Belgium and other places, and wrote to distin- 
 guished medical men like von Esmarch and Koenig and 
 other people ; I went to Antwerp and Brussels, and saw 
 the principal operating surgeons in those towns, but 
 only one of them had eiver seen a case of chimney- 
 sweeps' cancer. They had heard of it, and regarded 
 
 41<^ 
 
 it as an English disease. Drs. Schvoonen and Ceute- j|f^. jy y 
 rick had both seen a case in consultation and the JButlin, 
 patient had been operated on in private. I mention f.e.c.s!, 
 Germany and Belgium particularly, because the condi- d.o.l. 
 
 tions are precisely similar to those which prevail in „„ ^j :„.„ 
 
 this country, where hard coal is burned. The hard ^^ ^^lov^906. 
 coal comes from the North of Germany and Belgium, 
 and some by way of Hull from England, so that a good 
 deal of it is actually the same coal. It is burned in 
 open fireplaces, as in this country, and flues are used 
 in precisely the same manner as in this country. I 
 found that practically the disease did not exist in 
 those countries, and I wanted to find out why. I 
 therefore went myself or sent a messenger to those 
 countries, in order to see how the thing was 
 done. We went to the working sweeps' houses, 
 to the master sweeps' houses, and we found 
 that these costumes which I have here are made 
 by the sweeps' wives {producing same). One of them 
 was made in Holland, and the other one was made in 
 Germany by a sweep's wife in Hanover. {The teitness 
 produced two figures.) If you talk to an English sweep 
 on the subject, he will probably remember that some 
 member of his family has died of cancer, but in the 
 countries I have mentioned the people engaged in the 
 occupation not only have no knowledge of any disease 
 which is incidental to their trade, but they believe that 
 it is a remarkably healthy profession, and the reason 
 they give for its being healthy is that they wash them- 
 selves so much more than other people do. 
 
 1949. What is the special purpose of those particu- 
 lar costumes ; what are they designed to do? — It is 
 only when the sweep is walking about, the street that 
 he wears a hat. When he is at work his blouse is tied 
 round the waist and the wrists ; he wears a little skull 
 cap and over it a hood. Then, over his mouth and nose 
 he always wears a cloth, and this blouse is fastened 
 closely about his neck, so that the soot reaches his body 
 with very great difficulty, if at all. Then, in the 
 afternoon, as soon as he has finished his work, he 
 goes home and washes right down to the waist. In 
 Switzerland especially they have beautiful under- 
 ground warm bath rooms, where they wash from head 
 to foot every day, and some of them actually wash 
 their shirts as well, when they have finished washing 
 themselves. This other model has gaiters on, but, to 
 begin with, he has the hood and blouse all made 
 in one piece. This garment is tied tightly round his 
 neck, aind tucked inside his trousers, which are 
 fastened tightly. He wears tight-fitting sleeves, 
 anci on the lower part of tlie trousers he puts these 
 gaiters and fastens them so that the soot cannot get up 
 his legp. I have here a specimen of the a.ctua.1 cloth 
 which he wears. It is a washing material, and is 
 washed perhaps once a week or once a fortnight. This 
 is a specimen of the stuff which is used very largely 
 by sweeps, which was bought at Lille. It washes ex- 
 ceedingly well. 
 
 1950. Then is the special purposs of those costumes 
 to prevent the soot reaching the skin of the body? — 
 Yes, and the men take precautions that the soot does 
 not get into the mouth and nose. 
 
 1951. What is the advantage of that? — They do not 
 like it. I never heard of the use of a cloth over the 
 mouth in this country till the other day, when I went 
 to see a man named Vale, who is the sweep at St. 
 Bartholomew's Hospital, and he told me that His men 
 sometimes covered the mouth and nose with a cloth 
 like this. I said, "Do not you do it?" and he said, 
 " No, I do not do much sweeping but when I go my- 
 self to sweep sometimes when they are sweeping at 
 St. Bartholomew's, I do not like it because I gft my 
 mouth and my palate all covered with soot." Sweeps 
 suffer from consvimption tremendously ; the mortality 
 from consumption amongst them is very heavy 
 indeed. I have not the latest figures, but the mor- 
 tality amongst sweeps stands at 260, as compared with 
 the agriculturist at 106, while even in the Potteries 
 the figures are only 333, and in the knife grinding 
 industry 382. 
 
 1952. (Professor Allbutt.) To what do you attri- 
 bute the diminution which has taken place in this . 
 disease ; do you think it is due to individual pre- 
 cautions? — Yes. I have made enquiri3s during the 
 last few days, not so many as I should have liked to 
 have made — and amongst others I have been to my 
 own house sweep, who tells me that generally the 
 men engaged in the trade are cleaner than they used 
 to be. 
 
 1953. Do you think thai; there is a sort of eUvation. 
 
 H 
 
68 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. B T. ot public opinion amongst them ? — Yes, and I suppose 
 
 Bictiin there is a better wEitei supply than there used to be 
 
 F.R.G.Si, 20 or 30 years ago, and they oan get water much 
 
 D.C.L. mere easily. 
 
 _„ ■iij~~^qAfj 1954. But still there is a higher conception ot 
 
 '•'^' ■ cleanliness amongst them you think? — Yes. 
 
 1955. The men who do the work are in no way 
 drilled into it by their employers ? — No. So little 
 do they know anything about the ordinary habits of 
 the sweep that the man who makes the arrangements 
 for sweeping is more like a clerk in good 
 employment than anything else. He comes with 
 a cigarette in his mouth, and looks anything 
 but a sweep. I questioned him with regard to the 
 work and the habits of the men in his employ, but 
 he could tell me very little, and said that if I would 
 go round to his place one morning, between 9 and 
 10, his foreman would tell me all about it, but at that 
 moment he did not know anything aboxxt it at all. 
 
 1955. Then the improvement you think is not ihe 
 result of any pressure on the part of those above, 
 but is a spontaneous movement on the part of the 
 workers ? — Yes. 
 
 1957. During the last 20 years, and from your past 
 knowledge with regard to the matter, do you say that 
 the relation of cured cases to all cases has been con- 
 tinually increasing ? — I say as compared with cases 
 of cancer generally the returns .are extremely good. 
 There had never been any published statistics until 
 some years ago, when I looked up the histories to 
 see what had happened to sweeps, or to persons with 
 cancer of the scrotum, who had been operated upon 
 years previously, and I found that the results of the 
 operations were not quite so good as for cancer of the 
 lip .and face, but they were not very far behind. 
 
 1958. In speaking of the diminution of deaths, do 
 you think that improvement in surgery has contributed 
 to that diminution ? — I should suppose so. You would 
 not expect a man to die now because of the removal of 
 a portion of the scrotum. People do not die from 
 the result of operations now as they used to do. 
 
 1959. Do you find that there are by the improve- 
 ments in surgery a very much larger proportion of 
 recoveries than there would otherwise have been ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 1960. So that would affect the mortality, I suppose? 
 —Yes. 
 
 1961. I suppose it might be the case that something 
 like the same number of persons were affected, and 
 that the diminution of deaths might be due to surgi- 
 cal skill? — Yes. You asked me a question just now 
 with regard to the unproved habits of these 
 people. I should like to say that Mrs. Butlin has 
 taken a great interest in this matter, and has 
 been to the houses of these people ; in fact, she- has 
 been my messenger when I could not go myself. She 
 got these clothes and things which I have produced, 
 which I could not have got because if I myself had 
 gone amongst the people they would have looked upon 
 me with suspicion. She, however, could talk to them, 
 and she got these things which I could not have got. 
 She asked a young sweep, who was sweeping in my 
 house about two years ago, if he had ever heard of 
 any disease connected with his trade. He replied that 
 uncle had died of it, and added that it was because he 
 did not wash himself. 
 
 1962. How far does the presumption carry you in 
 any individual instance that a case of cancer is chim- 
 ney sweep's, cancer, because the point might arise with 
 regard to compensation : Is this man's cancer a trade 
 cancer — that is to say, a chimney sweep's cancer? I 
 quite understand that as regards the scrotum there 
 might be a very strong presumption indeed, but how 
 far would the symptoms carry you otherwise?— They 
 would not carry you far. 
 
 1963. It must be cutaneous, must it?— It must 1»n 
 cutaneous. If I were, a judge in the matter I should 
 not listen to anything else. It must be apparent Oft 
 the outer surface. 
 
 1964. It is a matter of speculation, I suppose, as to 
 whether internal cancer might or might not be due 
 to the occupation ? — Yes. 
 
 1965. Is there a colliers' cancer? — No. I took, a 
 great deal of trouble to find that O'Ut. I wrote to seve- 
 ral people connected with collieries and so on, and- 
 communicated with- them in varous ways, but I could 
 
 not find that there was any collier's cancer^ andy more 
 than that, if we take the men employed in coke works, 
 where thoy have to work in front of furnaces nearly 
 naked, where they are covered with filth and dust, aa 
 I have seen them myself, I have never found but on& 
 case of cancer of the scrotum, and it was lookefl upon 
 as an extraordinary rare occurrence. 
 
 1966. May I ask you whether in other dUsty occupa- 
 tions cancer may result? — Yes, in the case of tar 
 workers. The material getsr into the scrotum, just as in 
 the case of chimney sweeps.. The workers get cruda 
 parafiin into their skins ; they get it rubbed into them. . 
 It has occurred in Scotland and in parts of Germany, 
 and we have had cases from Barking, wiere there 
 are factcnies in which the men have to work with 
 crude paraffin. I have mad© inquiries' with regard to . 
 the progress of the disease of late years, and I. find 
 that it has been almost completely wiped out owing to 
 the precautions which have been taken, after the con- 
 sequences have been pointed out. In these plaoea 
 they can dictate to the workmen what they are to wear, 
 and whether they are to wash or not, arid the conse- 
 quence is, as far as I can ascertain, that the disease 
 is dying out entirely. It is the same disease, and is 
 due perhaps tO' exactly the same cause, namely, pre- 
 paration of the skin to take cancer. 
 
 1967. Do you regard warts as an early phase of 
 cancer or merely as a previous disease of the skin which, 
 predisposes to cancer f^ — It is a predisposing disease of 
 the skin, I suppose. 
 
 1968. The warts you refer to are the same, are they,, 
 as ordinary warts — they are not really cancerous ? — 
 No, because they exist for many years. The disease 
 almost always begins in the wart,' or in the form of a 
 wart, but it might be one of many warts. 
 
 1969. The cancer would be superimposed on the 
 wart, would it? — Yes, the wart is a good place' for 
 cancer to take root, so to speak. 
 
 1970. With regard to the protection of the mouth 
 and nose, to which you referred, the precaution in the 
 first instance, I suppose, would be in order to protect 
 such parts as the lip and the nostril from epitheli- 
 oma? — No, I fancy from what the man Vale said to 
 me that in the first place it is done because they dis- 
 like the taste of the soot in their mouths; the soot 
 goes up their noses and into their mouths, and I sup- 
 pose it irritates them. I have no doubt it makes their 
 occupation a very thirsty occupation, and there is nt> 
 doubt they drink heavily. 
 
 1971. Do you think there is no great danger of 
 cancer on the nostril or lip ? — They do get it on the 
 lip, but not often on the nostril, and they also get it 
 in the mouth. 
 
 1972. And the handkerchief, you think, would pro- 
 tect them from that? — ^Yes. 
 
 1973. Would you suggest that it would have a still 
 larger function, nanlely, the protection of the lungs? — 
 Yes. The subject is dealt with in Oliver's book, in 
 which Dr. Tatham wrote an article on dust diseases, 
 and pointed out particularly that sweeps are liable to- 
 lung diseases in consequence of the soot going do'wn. 
 
 1974. Do I understand that you would include 
 chimney sweeps' phthisis in the same category as 
 grinders' phthisis and general dust phthisis? — Yes. I 
 do not see how one caji come to any other conclusion ; 
 it seems to me to be a reasonable conclusion. 
 
 1975. We have no reason, have we, to suppose that 
 the inhalation of dust in coal-mining produces phthisis, 
 though a collier's lungs become as black as your hat? 
 — I find amongst coal miners . the figures are light as 
 regards consumption,, but heavy ■with regard to dis- 
 eases of the respiratory organs. 
 
 1976. Coal miners are subject to broncliitis and that 
 Bort of disease, are they hot? — Yes. 
 
 1977. My question was rather directed to lunf 
 diseases which develop into tuberculosis ?-^-These 
 cases in colliers are very low. There is no doubt that 
 Boot is a tremendously irritating substance. 
 
 1978. Is it more irritating than coal-dust, for in- 
 •tanoe? — Yes. 
 
 1979. .For a collier's lungs are loaded with carbon? 
 — ^Yes. I have had, all kinds of chemical tests made. 
 I had Dr! Hiirtley at work for me at St. BkrthblotHew's 
 for a year or two, aild I thought he would be abletCK 
 isolate something from soot which might be found also' 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 59 
 
 in cmde paraffin and tobaooo, but when it came to 
 isolating these organic substances it was very difficult. 
 
 1960. There is some unknown quality in soot, you 
 think, other than grittiness, which makes it peculiarly 
 irritating ? — ^Yes. ^ 
 
 1981. Speaking generally" from our point of view, 
 which is that of trade compensation, do you think that 
 chimney-sweeps' cancer, in its present greatly reduced 
 frequency, is of practical importance. There would be 
 a certain amount of trouble in registration, and that 
 sort of thing, to be incurred, and I should like to know 
 whether you think it would be worth while to incur 
 all this trouble now that chimney sweeps' cancer is so 
 much reduced in prevalence f — Of course, the difficulty 
 in answering that question would be that I do not 
 , know how much mischief you would allow in other 
 businesses. I have no sort of basis to go upon. 
 
 1962. Would you consider the disease to be still preva- 
 lent or rather a ma/tterof history? — It is' still prevalent. 
 I should think it is more a matter for great town ooun- 
 , cils, like the London County Council, to take up and 
 .deal with. I think they could make sweeps as healthy 
 as any other members of the community. They could 
 deal with the matter very much better, I think, than 
 any other body. 
 
 1983. But we have to consider our present duties 
 and responsibilities, you see ? — ^Yes ; but supposing it 
 
 , is pointed out that these diseases are dangerous and 
 are due to want of care, and that claims might arise 
 in certain instances, then I think legislation by the 
 towns would do all that is necessary. 
 
 1984. (Chairman.) It is not really within the func- 
 tion of this Committee to consider the prevention of 
 these industrial diseases. Our Reference is to con- 
 sider what diseases should be included within the 
 Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act. A 
 question which arises with regard to that is, to 
 put it briefly and simply, whether, if the sweeps kept 
 themselves clean, do you think they could avoid this 
 disease 1 — Yes, without a doubt. They avoid it in 
 other countries where the conditions are precisely the 
 same as they are in this country, and therefore there 
 is no possible reason why they should not avoid it 
 here. I have no hesitation in saying that. The evi- 
 dence is ag clear as can be that the disease can be 
 prevented. 
 
 1985. (Professor Allbutt.) Since your resignation of 
 jour Chair at St. Bartholomew's you are not in so 
 good a position, are you, to tell us what the degree 
 of the prevalence of this disease is at present? 
 ^No ; and there is another difficulty. I find, 
 though we have cases still, the disease has never 
 been frequent in one particular hospital. In addition 
 to which, nowadays, operations are going on in all 
 sorts of places, such as sick asylums, infirmaries, and 
 so on, so that there must be a large number of opera- 
 tions which never appear in any statistical form. 
 Therefore, we can only form a judgment from the 
 cases which occur at the great hospitals of London, 
 ten or eleven in number, which publish statistics, but 
 they do not tell you the whole thing ; they only give 
 you an idea — nothing more^ 
 
 1986. (Dr. Legge.) Can you tell us anything about 
 the conditions of employment of chimney sweeps? 
 Are they their own masters ? — I can tell you in this 
 country. For instance, my sweep employs so many 
 people. I send to him, saying I want my chimney 
 swept, and he says, " I will send a man up." He 
 employs a man at so much a week, but he does not 
 know anything about his habits. He is merely the 
 agent between the man and me. 
 
 1987. He is not really the employer in the sense of 
 employing him for trade or gain, is he ? — That I am 
 not quite sure about. I could find that out. 
 
 1988. It would influence the question, I think? — In 
 the North German towns., Hamburg and so on, and in 
 the Belgian and Dutch towns, they have men ap- 
 pointed to certain districts; they are what, are called 
 the Ramoneiir Jur^. They sweep districts of the 
 town, they are the recognised people. You may go to 
 any other sweep and have your chimney swept, but 
 if it catches lire and nas not been swept by the 
 Bamoneur Jur4 you are fiued. They allow you to 
 
 employ what we should call a quack, but you do it at Mr. 3. T. 
 your own risk, and are responsible if your chimney Butlin, 
 catches fire, whereas if you have the certificate of a f.e.C:S,, 
 Ramoneur Jur6 I suppose they fix upon the authorised D.C.L. 
 man and not upon you. ^g ^'^^ Jg^_ 
 
 1989. But there are a great many chimney sweeps here — ^— 
 who are their own masters, are there not 2^ — Yes. I 
 
 have visited some of the places where these men live, 
 and have found them filthily dirty. Sweeps live in 
 the same houses generation after generation, and are 
 very easy to find. 
 
 1990. When you have asked an agent to get a 
 chimney sweep to sweep the chimney, do you pay the 
 agent? — We pay the agent always. We suppose that 
 the sweep belongs to him. 
 
 1991. Do you know if there is any association of 
 chimney sweepers ? — I think there is one now. I think 
 I have seen it quite recently in the Directory. I think 
 there is a Ramoneur Association, which employs a con- 
 siderable number of people. 
 
 1992. With regard to the question of the compara- 
 tive mortality figure, which you gave for the years 
 1890 to 1892, 44 as amongst generally occupied males, 
 and 156 as amongst chimney sweeps, can you say how 
 that comparative mortality figure is arrived at ? — ^No, 
 I am sorry to say I could not. 
 
 1993-5. Among 64,641 males between 25 and 65 years 
 of age there were, out of 1,000 deaths, 44 from cancer in 
 a year, and, according to the death rate found, there 
 would have been 156 deaths from cancer among a 
 similar number of chimney sweeps and at similar ages ? — • 
 Yes, I know they had to modify it in order to get a 
 general basis of comparison. 
 
 1996. (Chairman.) In what period is that?— From 
 1890 to 1892. 
 
 1997. Is there anything in that book to show how 
 many cases of death from chimney sweeps' cancer there 
 are on the average for the year .P— They take three 
 years. Sixty-one sweeps in those three years died of 
 cancer. 
 
 1998. In the whole country ? — In the whole country, 
 besides those who had it, and did not die of it — who 
 were operated on. 
 
 1999. So that there would be 20 deaths a year from 
 chimney sweeps' cancer? — From cancer in chimney 
 sweeps. When we speak of chimney sweeps' cancer we 
 mean of a particular part. 
 
 2000. Have you any idea in your own mind by how 
 many that would have to be multiplied in order to 
 arrive at the number of cases?— No, I do not think 
 there are any means of arriving at that at all. 
 
 2001. But the number of persons who suffer from the 
 disease would be very considerably larger than the 
 number who die from it?— Yes, a great many more, 
 because it is very successfully dealt with. I should 
 not like to make any exact statement, because it would 
 be purely theoretical. It might be half as many again, 
 perhaps twenty or something of the kind in each year. 
 
 2002. I suppose almost all working chimney sweeps 
 are their own masters or work for small employers ? — 
 Yes, they do not seem to work, unless this new asso- 
 ciation has a large membership, in bodies of more than 
 two or three ; not more than two or three work for any 
 single individual. 
 
 2003. Is there any trade union amongst them? — I 
 do not know. If there is it is quite new.. 
 
 2004. (Professor Allbutt.) Are boys employed in 
 chimney sweeping now ? — No, not since 1840 ; but they 
 are employed in Belgium and North Germany and 
 Holland, little tiny boys. 
 
 2005. Have you anything to say about the question 
 of age? — I have not the least doubt, looking at the 
 diminution, say from twenty years ago, when the figure 
 of mortality was enormous, 290 as compared with 150 
 at the present time, that the old sweeps who had 
 begun as children added very materially to the number 
 of persons who suffered and died from cancer, because 
 they began at an early age, and had soot about them for 
 many years, but though little boys are employed in 
 foreign countries they do not suffer from cancer, yet 
 they go up the chimneye. 
 
 419 
 
 H 2 
 
60 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mt.F. 
 
 Skuffle- 
 
 botham, M.B. 
 
 2S Nov. 1906. 
 
 Mr. Frank SHurFLEBOTHAM, m.b., called in and examined. 
 
 2006. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man in prac- 
 tice at Newcastle-under-Lyme ? — Yes. 
 
 2007. Are you in a position to give the Committee 
 evidence on various diseases affecting pottery workers 
 and also affecting coal miners ? — Yes. 
 
 2008. How loiig have you been in that district in 
 practice ? — ^For six years. 
 
 2009. I will take first the pottery industry. There 
 is, of course, a disease from which the workers suffer, 
 due to working the lead ? — Yes. 
 
 2010. That we do not propose to investigate, because 
 it is already included in the schedule to the Work- 
 men's Compensation Bill ; but there are in addition 
 other diseases, are there not ? — Yes. 
 
 2011. What diseases do the workers specially suffer 
 from? — The two diseases which I wish to mention are 
 both rare diseases, but there are occasional cases which 
 crop up. One is fibrosis of the lung, and the second is 
 very much rarer still. It is dermatitis, which affects 
 dust-tile workers, and also those operatives engaged in 
 what is known as fritting. 
 
 2012. Taking first of all fibrosis of the lung, from 
 what cause does that arise in this particular trade? — 
 It arises from the irritation caused by the constant 
 inhalation of clay or flint dust. 
 
 2013. (Professor Allbutt.) Dry clay dust? — Yes, dry 
 clay dust. 
 
 2014. (Chairman.) Can the symptoms of the disease 
 caused by it be differentiated from other similar 
 diseases? — Yes, quite easily, when the examination is 
 a careful and systematic one, and when the operative 
 who suffers from the complaint has been observed for 
 some time. 
 
 2015. For how long? — That all depends on the in- 
 dividual case. I think in the notes I sent you I have 
 made some remarks about certain difiiculties, but I 
 meant that difficulties would arise from a superficial 
 examination, say, of five or ten minutes' duration. 
 
 2016. When you say " after having the patient under 
 examination for some time," do you mean by " some 
 time " a period of days, weeks, months, or years ? — A 
 period, say, of a few days. 
 
 2017. Then with certainty could you say that the 
 disease was fibrosis of the lung and not some other 
 lung disease ? — I think so. 
 
 2018. I suppose it could always be distinguished by 
 autopsy ?— Yes, it could be, but there might be diffi- 
 culties in the way. If an operative dies from fibrosis 
 of the lung, other conditions may have arisen which 
 may have aggravated his symptoms and actually 
 caused death. For instance, a man with fibrosis of 
 the lung, who has it in such a severe form that he 
 dies, most probably — in fact for certain — has chronic 
 bronchitis and emphysema as well. Of course, as 
 everyone knows, chronic bronchitis is a common com- 
 plaint, and because a potter has chronic bronchitis 
 it does not follow that it is brought on by his occupa- 
 tion. 
 
 2019. Supposing you discovered the symptoms of 
 fibrosis of the lung in the case of a man who had 
 died, would you be able to say that the death was 
 due to that disease, to use the words of the Workmen's 
 Compensation Bill ? — Yes. 
 
 ■2020. That, in other words, he would not have died 
 but for that fibrosis ? — Yes ; fibrosis would be the 
 primary cause. 
 
 2021. The disease, of course, is of gradual growth ? — 
 It is, extending over some years. 
 
 2022. If a man was incapacitated from work owing 
 to this disease, you could not say, could you, that his 
 incapacity had been due to his work during the pre- 
 vious twelve months ? — Oh, no ; I do not think so. 
 
 2023. Would it be possible for a man to be working 
 in a process in the pottery industry, which is likely 
 to give rise to this disease, and having thereby got 
 the seeds of the disease into him, to go to some other 
 process, and a year or so afterwards develop the 
 disease which would then become apparent and inca- 
 pacitate him ? — No ; by changing his occupation I do 
 not think it would be apparent. 
 
 2024. I ask the question because the Workmen's 
 Compensation Bill says that employers who employ a 
 man during twelve months previous to incapacity may 
 be made liable to pay compensation ; but I under- 
 stand you do not think it possible that an employer 
 who had employed a man more than twelve month* 
 previously should, in consequence of the bad condition 
 of his workshop, be really responsible for the 
 growth of the disease? — ^In a case of fibrosis of the lung 
 I do not think twelve months makes much difference 
 under the present conditions which prevail in the Pot- 
 teries. 
 
 2025. In what sense do you mean it does not make 
 much difference ? — In this way : At present, if the pro- 
 visions of the Factory Act are carried out, it is very 
 nearly impossible for a man to be put under those 
 conditions where he can get fibrosis of the lung. 
 
 2026. But cases, nevertheless, still occur ? — Yes, but 
 not in young people, only in old people who have 
 worked years ago under the old conditions. 
 
 2027. Then is the disease gradually disappearing ? — 
 It is more than gradually disappearing ; it is very 
 fast disappearing. I can illustrate this by the statis- 
 tics I have taken from the reports of the North Staf- 
 fordshire Infirmary. I have taken them for three 
 periods of six years. From 1873 to 1878 the total 
 number of cases, both surgical and medical, admitted 
 into the infirmary was 7.788. 
 
 2028. Cases under what head ? — That is under every 
 head — the total number of cases. But of this number 
 113 were cases of fibrosis of the lungs. For one special 
 disease of the lungs, and especially for a chronic dis- 
 ease, that is a large number. 
 
 2029. (Professor Allbutt.) How is that number 
 ascertained ? — It is obtained from statistics based 
 upon the medical reports of the physician of the In- 
 firmary at that time. These figures are given on Dr. 
 Arlidge's authority. During those six years 
 there were 113 cases of fibrosis of the lung, and 
 considering it is only one complaint, and considering 
 the patients would stay in the hospital for a consider- 
 able amount of time, that is a very large number.. 
 Then the next period of six years I have taken from 
 1892 to 1897. I should have liked to have taken a 
 period of six years between, but the volume of hos- 
 pital reports had been borrowed, and it was not known 
 where it had gone to, so I could not get the 
 figures. But from 1892 to 1897 the number of patients, 
 admitted into the hospital was 11,650. Of that number 
 there were 124 cases of fibrosis of the lung. During 
 the last six years, up to this year — the annual report 
 being made up to yesterday — ^there were 12,881 total 
 number of cases, and only 5 cases of fibrosis of the 
 lung — 5 cases in the last six years. If the figures 
 are worked out on the basis of 10,000 cases, it 
 comes out in this way, that during the first six years 
 lihere would be 145 cases ; during the second six years,. 
 107, and during the third six years 4 cases^ 
 
 (The Witness handed in the following statement): — 
 
 POTTERY INDUSTRY. 
 
 Fibrosis of Lung. 
 
 Statistics of oases from reports of North Staffordshire 
 Infirmary, Stoke-upon-Trent : 
 
 Year ending 
 November. 
 
 Total Number of 
 
 Inpatients both 
 
 Surgical and Medical. 
 
 Total Number of 
 
 cases of 
 Fibrosis of Lungs. 
 
 1873 
 
 1,296 
 
 46 
 
 1874 
 
 1,199 
 
 12 
 
 1875 
 
 1,270 
 
 14 
 
 1876 
 
 1,UI 
 
 5- 
 
 1877 
 
 1,329 
 
 23 
 
 1878 
 
 1,553 
 
 13 
 
 Total for 6 years 
 
 7,788 
 
 113 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 61 
 
 POTTERY INDUSTRY.-confc 
 Fibrosis of Lung. 
 
 Year ending 
 November. 
 
 Total Number of 
 
 Inpatients both 
 
 Surgical and Medical. 
 
 Total Number of 
 
 casea of 
 Fibrosis of Lungs. 
 
 1892 
 
 
 1,887 
 
 22 
 
 1893 
 
 
 2,030 
 
 12 
 
 1894 
 
 
 1,984 
 
 8 
 
 1895 
 
 
 1,880 
 
 32 
 
 1896 
 
 
 1,957 
 
 29 
 
 1897 
 
 
 1,912 
 
 21 
 
 Total for 6 years 
 
 
 11,650 
 
 124 
 
 1901 
 
 
 2,047 
 
 2 
 
 1902 
 
 
 2,149 
 
 
 
 1903 
 
 
 2,159 
 
 
 
 1904 
 
 
 2,085 
 
 1 
 
 1905 
 
 
 2,201 
 
 
 
 1906 
 
 
 2,2-10 
 
 2 
 
 Total for 6 years 
 
 12,881 
 
 5 
 
 or worked out on the basis of 10,000 as the total 
 number of cases the proportions would be : — 
 
 1873-1878 - ... 145 
 
 1892-1897 
 1901-1906 
 
 107 
 4 
 
 These years have not been specially splected to show 
 the greater contrasts between the number of cases 30 
 years ago and now. I was obliged to take them, because 
 prior to the seventies the nomenclature of the diseases 
 of the respiratory organs was unsatisfactory, and also 
 because there was a volume of reports missing between 
 1880 and 1890 or 1891, 
 
 2030. (Chairman.) Those are very striking figures. 
 In your opinion do they point to a very large and real 
 diminution in the prevalence of the disease, and not 
 merely to a different practice of diagnosing? — The 
 figures point to a real diminution in the prevalence of 
 the diseasa 
 
 2031. In your ordinary practice in the district you 
 practically never come across a case of this disease 
 now, do you? — Very seldom. 
 
 2032. And then only among the older workers? — 
 That is so. But at the present time, I must say, I 
 have two people under my observation suffering from 
 thig complaint, both of them over sixty years of age. 
 
 2033. Are you sure in your own mind that those 
 two persons have contracted the disease through their 
 employment ? — Yes, I feel certain of that ; but I also 
 feel certain that it was years and years ago that they 
 contracted it, because they have each suffered from 
 it for thirty years. 
 
 2034. Then it would be exceedingly unjust to make 
 the employer who' had employed them within twelve 
 months pay compensation in case they die ?— Cer- 
 tainly. I do not see how it is possible for this disease 
 to be contracted at the present time under the present 
 provisions of the Factory Acts which are now in opera- 
 tion. There is very little dust in the factories. 
 
 2035. There is another disease you mentioned as 
 prevalent amongst the tile makers — dermatitis?—! 
 would, not like to say prevalent, but existing. That is 
 a disease that I have seen little of. I have made in- 
 quiries about it, and while my inquiries point to cases 
 being known, still it is a rare disease. 
 
 2036. It is called derinatitis !— Yes; ... 
 
 2037. What' is the cause of that particular class of 
 
 disease?— It is an infiammation of the skin over the 
 hands and wrists, caused by the irritation of the dust 
 among dust-tile workers, and it is also found less fre- 
 quently among those engaged in fritting. 
 
 2038. What is the process of dust-tile making ? — The 
 process is this : the dust consists of very finely- 
 powdered clay, flint and stone mixed together, con- 
 taining sufficient moisture — a small percentage — to 
 make the dust adhere together when sufficient pressure 
 is put upon it. The tile is made from this dust by 
 means of a press and a die. The complaint is caused 
 by the irritation of the dust on the hands. 
 
 2039. Have you any statistics showing the desree of 
 prevalence of this disease ? — No, I have not, and they 
 are difficult to get. I made inquiries at two large 
 tile works yesterday iii Burslem and Hanley, both 
 established, I believe, for thirty years, and neither of 
 them have had a case. 
 
 2040. Is it a disease which can be differentiated 
 with certainty from other diseases? — Yes. 
 
 2041. If you saw a case of it you would say at once 
 that the man suffering from it must have been engaged 
 in this particular process? — I do not say one would 
 make a lightning diagnosis of the disease, but on in- 
 quiry I think one could come to the conclusion that 
 the disease was due to the nature of the occupation. 
 
 2042. Are the symptoms of it different from the 
 symptoms of other skin diseases? — The symptoms are 
 characteristic, but it is not confined to the pottery in- 
 dustry alone. I have seen this dermatitis found among 
 workers in other industries. 
 
 2043. But is it always due to some industry ? Could 
 not a man contract it in his own home ? — No, I do not 
 
 think so in the form that I have seen it. 
 
 t 
 
 2044. But the disease is so exceptionally rare, is 
 it not, that it may be hardly worth while including it in 
 an Act of Parliament? — I think it is very, very rare, 
 and I cannot get any statistics from anywhere. The 
 infirmary reports do not give statistics. The niedicali 
 men of whom I have made inquiries admit that they 
 see cases rarely, and that they are due to the nature- 
 of the work ; but it is certainly a very rare disease. 
 
 2045. How many cases would you come across in a, 
 year, do you think ? — One may go a year and not see 
 any. Dr. Hill, the certifying Factory Surgeon for the- 
 Tunstall District, told me two nights ago that he had _ 
 only seen one case in twelve years. 
 
 2046. (Professor Allbutt.) Your evidence- is so. 
 satisfactory as to the reduction in these cases that . 
 a very close examination of it scarcely seems im- 
 portant. We know that if such cases do occur, fibrosis . 
 in the early stages could usually be discriminated from 
 other forms of pulmonary disease? — ^Yes. 
 
 2047. Did you ever discover clay-dust in the sputum 
 of such persons? — ^Yes. 
 
 2048. By liquefying the sputum and spinning it, I 
 suppose? — In some cases one can see it quite easily. 
 By putting a little of the sputum under the micro. . 
 scope one can see it. 
 
 2049. And did you take steps to ascertain that it was 
 clay-dust ? — ^Yes. 
 
 2050. And so incorporated with the sputum that it 
 
 ■ could not have come just from the mouth, but came- 
 from the lung, in your opinion ? — Yes. 
 
 2051. Can you give us any idea of the length of time 
 the disease would take to develop ? I suppose some- 
 people are attacked sooner and some later ? — Yes. 
 
 2052. And the habits of each individual would have 
 to be considered, I suppose ? — Yes, and the home sur- 
 roundings. ■ 
 
 2053. Supposing the affection is once set going by 
 .inhalation of clay-dust, and then a man goes to some- 
 other employment and no longer inhales dust, would 
 the lung disease thus started be progressive in itself 
 without the continuous inhalation of the dustP 
 Having once begun, do you think if would be likely 
 to' go on establishing itself? — I think the Chairman 
 said after 12 months. If a man worked for a year or 
 two and was found to have something pointing to 
 fibrosis of the lung, and then went to another employ- 
 nient after a few years would one expect, him to 
 recover? .That is how I understood the question. 
 
 2054. Let me put tlie question the other way. How 
 
 Jifr. F. 
 
 Shuffle- 
 
 botham, m.b. 
 
 23 Nov. 1906. 
 
62 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. F. 
 
 Shu/flc- 
 
 botham. m.b. 
 
 23 Nov. 1906. 
 
 far in a case, which is well established, is removal to 
 a non-dusty employment curative, or would the thing 
 go on anyhow if once started? — I do not think so. I 
 think if it were taken early at first, and perhaps after 
 7, 8, or 10 years, the man were removed from the em- 
 ployment to a more healthy employment, it is quite 
 possible he would recover. One sees very striking 
 examples of that in the coal-mining industry. One 
 often finds at a post-mortem examination a man whose 
 lungs are impregnated with co>al-du6t, but who has 
 never shown any clinical symptoms of fibrosis of the 
 lung. 
 
 2055. To pass to another point, the figures which you 
 gave up to yesterday show an enormous reduction, do 
 they not, in the number of cases of fibrosis ? — Yes. 
 
 2056. They suggest some fallacy on the face of them, 
 do they not ? Would your experience lead you to an- 
 ticipate that enormous reduction ? — Yes, I think so, 
 because the disease is so very infrequently found. 
 
 2057. So that you are not surprised? — No, not at 
 all. I would have expected the diminution to be more 
 gradual between those years. I was rather surprised 
 there were so many between 1892 and 1897 ; but I am 
 not at all siu-prised at the small number now. 
 
 2053. It is not really more than the ordinary inci- 
 dence of pulmonary fibrosis in any district, is it ? — 
 No. 
 
 2059. In fact, less, you might say? — Quite so. 
 
 2060. It is certainly not more than what one might 
 call a common prevalence of such a disease? — That is 
 so. 
 
 2061. Can you suggest how far. that reduction has 
 been brought about by improvements in the condition 
 of the work and the factory? — I believe i^ is entirely 
 due to those improvements. 
 
 2052. Perhaps you will tell us what measures, in 
 your opinion, have been really effective in bringing 
 about the diminution ? — The systematic ventilation of 
 the workshops. 
 
 2063. {Dr. Legge.) Do you mean mechanical ventila- 
 tion by fans or window ventilation ? — Both. Esi>ecially 
 fans and also the systematic cleansing of the work- 
 shops from dust, and allowing a certain time to elapse 
 before the employes are admitted into the workshops 
 after being cleaned. 
 
 2064. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you include the use of 
 respirators ? — No. 
 
 2065. The fans and ventilation and cleanliness have 
 been suflB.cient ? — Quite sufficient. 
 
 2066. Has there been any great diminution of the 
 nse of alcohol among the workers, do you know ? — ^Yes. 
 I should think that the Potteries have shared in the 
 decrease in drunkenness in the same proportion as the 
 rest of the country. 
 
 2067. There is no very direct connection between 
 the diminution of fibrosis and the decrease of drunken- 
 ness, you think ? — I do not think so. 
 
 2068. Then, to turn to dermatitis, that is to an 
 expert easily distinguishable, I suppose, fr^E? ordinary 
 eczema ? — Yes, it would be. 
 
 2069. It is a definite complaint P — Yes. 
 
 2070. {Br. Legge.) On the point of dermatitis, have 
 j-ou had cases under treatment of dermatitis in the 
 process of colour-blowing, for instance ? — No. 
 
 2071. Have you heard of them ? — No, I have not. 
 
 2072. {Chairman.) But you have heard of some oases 
 .amongst those engaged in fritting ? — Yes. 
 
 2073. {Dr. Legge.) But fritting would b© dust, and 
 what I am referring to is a liquid ? — I have not heard 
 of any such cases. 
 
 2074. Although you said, I think, that dermatitis 
 was very rare in the Potteries as a cause of illness 
 and as a trade disease, all over the country there 
 would be a large number of cases, would there not? 
 — I am not prepared to answer that question. I 
 have seen it in other industries, and I believe — of 
 course, I am only speaking from what I am told — that 
 it is somewhat prevalent among the dyers and bleachers 
 in Lancashire. I saw a very characteristic case in a 
 bleaching and dyeing mill near Congleton some time 
 ago. I was told that this complaint was well known 
 there. 
 
 2075. Do you remember what the cause of it was In 
 that instance?— It was due to the mixing of the 
 colours. I «sked the man if it was chromate, -a.nd he 
 said it was not — that they did not use chromate at all, 
 I have inquired about chromates in the Potteries,, but 
 I do not know of any pottery where it is used for the 
 purpose of colouring the tiles. The colours most fre- 
 quently used are the oxides of cobalt, copper, -man- 
 ganese and iron. 
 
 2076. Have you seen the lungs of a person who has 
 died of potters' asthma ? — Yes. 
 
 2077. Does it resemble this plate at all {exhibiting 
 same) ? — I have seen this plate before, too. Yes, I think 
 it does. I take it that that is a typical case of fibrosis 
 of the lung. 
 
 2078. Have you compared with this list of cases of 
 fibrosis of the lungs, which you have given from the 
 Infirmary, a similar list of phthisis ? — I did, as a 
 matter of fact, but I have not got it here. 
 
 2079. Is there a diminution in them? — I could not 
 say. I took a great number of years, and did not add 
 them up, but I could give the figures. But I would.like 
 to say this with regard to the tuberculous diseases of 
 the lung that are put under several headings, and the 
 classification varies from year to year. For instance, 
 acute tuberculosis, acute phthisis, chronic tubercu- 
 losis, cirhosis of the lung, and so forth, so that by a 
 simple glance at the figures I am not able to answer 
 your question. 
 
 2080. Were these cases headed, " Fibrosis of the 
 Lung " ? — Yes ; potters' asthma and in some cases of 
 late years silicosis of the lung. 
 
 2081. Included in the list of phthisis cases do you 
 think there are likely to . be cases of fibrosis of the 
 lung ? — I do not think so, for this reason : That every 
 case of fibrosis of the lung that goes into the infirmary 
 would be under observation for some weeks, and the 
 physician who has charge of the case would, during 
 those weeks, be able to make a differential diagnods 
 between fibrosis of the lung among potters and, say, a 
 tuberculous disease of the lung. Of course, the sta- 
 tistics I have given are perfectly impartial. 
 
 2082. Did you find many of them combined with 
 tubercle? — No, tuberculous cases are put down under 
 most definite headings. 
 
 2083. Have cases of fibrosis known to be tuberculous 
 been put under a separate heading, even though they 
 were known to be potters' phthisis ? — I cannot go 
 beyond what I have said already. 
 
 2084. It would not be put down as potters' asthma, 
 would it, by a physician at the top of his sheet? — It 
 would be in the olden days. It is classed as potters' 
 phthisis, silicosis of the lung, or some synonymous but 
 still unmistakable term. The name given to it all 
 depends on the house physician who edited the annual 
 reports. 
 
 2085. What is the nature of the clay potters use? — 
 It is a mixture of clay, flint, and stone. 
 
 2086. Do you know if there has been any similar 
 reduction in the diseases of the respiratory system in 
 the North Staffordshire Infirmary? — Very little re- 
 duction at all. I noticed that, but I cannot give you 
 the figures. I have tlie classification of some of tnese 
 diseases here, and it will illustrate how they are classi- 
 fied. In 1877, for instance, the total number of re- 
 spiratory diseases amounted to 156, and of those 
 phthisis was placed first, 72 ; potters' phthisis, 23 ; 
 miners' phthisis, 9 ; acute phthisis, 8 ; bronchitis, 13 ; 
 pleurisy, 10 ; pneumonia, 6 ; and asthma, 5. That 
 were other less common diseases, bringing the total up 
 to 156. 
 
 2087. Which do you include under fibrosis of the 
 lungs ?— Potters' phthisis. 
 
 2088. (^Professor Allbutt.) Would that signify, on the 
 face of it, apart from tuberculosis, the respiratory 
 diseases are not specially common in your district? — 
 I would not like to say that, because it is a question of 
 the number of beds in the hospital. 
 
 2089-90. Can you give us any information from your 
 general practice as to the prevalence of respiratory 
 disease ? — I think bronchitis is very common, and it 
 is largely due to the fact that in the Potteries the sub- 
 Boil is clay. 
 
 2091. {Mr. Cunynghame.) I see you have , put in 
 some tables, showing a very remarkable diminution of 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 63 
 
 cases of fibrosis of th©- lungs, the diminution commenc- 
 ing at some date between 1897 and 1901 ? — Yes. 
 
 2092; Do yon put that down in any way to any 
 regulations for the conduct of the industry ? — Yes, 
 entirely so. ' 
 
 2093. At what date* did those regulations come ic 
 force, and what were they? — I cannot say. 
 
 2094. That seems to me that that proves that regu- 
 lations have reduced this disease, as it appears from 
 the Infirmary Returns ?— That is so. 
 
 2095. And, consequently, it follows, therefore, that 
 it must be an industrial disieaee ?-^Yes, that is so. 
 
 2096. Or otherwise it coUld hardly have been 
 affected by a change in industrial conditions? — Quite 
 so. 
 
 2097. When a man is dead it is quite easy, is not 
 it, to be certain that phthisis is fibroid and not tuber- 
 cular, and caught from some other cause than the 
 trade ? — Yes. 
 
 2098. But before a man is dead, in a large number 
 of cases, there will be some difficulty in making sure 
 of that, I suppose ? — There is no arbitrary line. If a 
 man, a potter, has worked in a dusty atmosphere, and 
 if he has acquired fibrosis of the lung, and eventually 
 tuberculosis, then it would be difficult to say which had 
 caused his death. But it is a remarkable fact that 
 potters who suffer from potters' asthma very rarely 
 acquire tuberculosis. 
 
 2099. Supposing a man came to you who had not 
 been very long in the industry, and yet who exhibited 
 symptoms of phthisis, what would you say? — Do you 
 mean tuberculous phthisis? 
 
 2100. No, using the word phthisis in its more 
 general sense, would not there be some difficulty, 
 unless the case was under observation for some time, 
 in being quite sure whether he had caught that disease 
 as a potter or whether he would have got it even 
 though he had been doing something else than potting ? 
 — If he had only worked as a potter for some time it 
 WQuld not be due to the nature of his employment. 
 
 2101. Would not there be some difficulty in the 
 initial stages if a doctor was asked which of those two 
 is it ; is it fibroid phthisis or is it tubercular ? Has 
 it been caught from a trade, or is it a thing that might 
 have been caught if he had not been in that trade? 
 Would there, or would not there have been some diffi- 
 culty in the diagnosis? — I think one could eliminate 
 tuberculosis by making a bacteriological examination 
 of the sputum. 
 
 2102. You think the sputum would give you a suffi- 
 ciently sure indication, do you ? — Yes. 
 
 2103. So that in your mind there would not be a 
 very great difficulty? — No. 
 
 2104. Putting it in another way, to make quite sure, 
 supposing that an insurance company were bound to 
 pay upon any phthisis caught in the trade, but not 
 bound to pay on phthisis caught otherwise than in the 
 trade, and granting that phthisis is known, of course, 
 apart from any trade, would it he. an easy matter for a 
 doctor, in any given case, to say whether the insurance 
 company ought to pay or not. Would you undertake, 
 as a doctor, audi being absolutely jus.t, of course, to 
 pronounce with tolerable certainty between the two ? — 
 I think so, but I would like to say this : That if the 
 disease be scheduled I have not the sligh'^est doubt 
 but what there will be a large increase in the number 
 of these reputed cases — that every potter who has got 
 a dough will think it is due to potters' fibrosis, and, 
 in rhy opinion, there will be a lot of unnecessary liti- 
 gation. 
 
 2105. But without the man necessarily malingering 
 they will think so, no doubt ?— If this becomes an Act 
 I have not the slightest doubt they will read it with 
 a microscope, and if they think there is a chance of 
 their getting something because they have a cough, 
 and because they are potters, they will naturally 
 m£(ke a claim for it. 
 
 2106. (Chairman.) But a certified surgeon will be 
 always able to meet any bogus case ? — Yes. 
 
 2107. Before turning to miners' diseases and in- 
 juries—with regard to dermatitis, potters' eczema is 
 the same, is not it ?— That is so. 
 
 2108. Your remaris about dust-tile makers who. con-, 
 tract dermatitis would apply equally to persons en- 
 gaged! in fritting, would they ?— Yes ; but there is no 
 
 necessity for anyone engaged in fritting to acquire Mr.F.. 
 dermatitis, because the process of fritting is such that Shuffle- 
 they should use their shovel, spade, or trowel, instead botham, m.b. 
 of their hands. It is only when they use their hands „„ ^— — 
 that they get the complaint. 23 Nov, 19 06. 
 
 2109. Turning to miners, first, with regard to nys- 
 tagmus, have you had several cases of that under 
 your observation ? — I have. 
 
 2110. Can the symptoms of that be easily diagnosed ? 
 — Yes, quite easily. 
 
 2111. Is it possible to imitate the symptoms? — No, 
 the movement of the eyeballs in nystagmus is an in- 
 voluntary movement, and consequently the worker 
 cannot malinger. 
 
 2112. (Mr. Cunynghame.) If it be an involuntary 
 movement, could not a malingering voluntary move- 
 ment imitate it ?— No. 
 
 2113. (Chairman.) Nystagmus does not necessarily 
 incapacitate a man, does it ? — Not necessarily. 
 
 2114. A considerable number of men at this moment 
 are working in the mines who are suffering from nys- 
 tagmus, are there not? — That is so. 
 
 2115. May the disease get so bad as to prevent a 
 man working? — Yes, in a certain number of cases. I 
 may say with regard to nystagmus in North Stafford- 
 shire, it is not at all common, but I believe it is very 
 much commoner in the Sheffield district. Mr. Snell, 
 I think, says that 5 per cent, of the miners suffer from 
 it in that district. 
 
 2116. In your district what percentage of the miners 
 should you say are suffering from nystagmus ? — I 
 could not give a percentage. 
 
 2117. Should you say it was rare? — I should say it 
 was comparatively rare. 
 
 1218. For one man prevented from working, owing 
 to miners' nystagmus, about how m'any should you 
 think suffer from, the disease, but not so badly that 
 they are incapacitated ? — A very large number ; but 
 I would not like to give any definite figure. 
 
 2119. A man. who is admittedly suffering- from 
 nystagmus might claim to be incapacitated, I suppose, 
 if he were able to obtain compensation, when really lie 
 might quite justly be considered fit to go on working? 
 — I can best answer that question, I think, by making 
 a suggestion. In my opinion, if this disease is added 
 to the Schedule, it is most important that a staff of 
 eye specialists should be appointed as medical referees 
 for the purpose of investigating these cases. While it 
 is a disease that can be diagnosed by surgeons in general 
 practice, I feel it would be very much more satisfactory, 
 both for the coalowners and tdie miners, if the cases 
 were referred to experts, and these experts would also 
 be of use in dealing with other eye diseases which are- 
 brought about through injury. 
 
 2120. That is a separate point, and is a suggestion- 
 which th© Committee will be very glad to consider. 
 But the point is, assTiming you have at your commaiiJ' 
 the best medical opinion in the country, would you be- 
 able to say with certainty whether or not a man ad-- 
 mittedly suffering from nystagmus was suffering suffi- 
 ciently to incapacitate him? — I think so. 
 
 2121. Nystagmus is distinctly a crade disease, is not 
 it?_No, it is a symptom which is found in certain- 
 diseases of the brain and spinal cord. 
 
 2122. But it is much more prevalent amongst miners, 
 is not it ? — It is. 
 
 2123. Taking cases of nystagmus amongst miners, 't: 
 would be a very remarkable coincidence indeed, would 
 not it, if the disease were found to be due to some- 
 illness, and not to their employment? — I will not go 
 BO fax as to say that, because miners are as subject to^ 
 the common ailments of life as anyone else. But if a 
 miner had a disease of the brain or spinal cord of which 
 nystagmus is a symptom, I think it would be remark- 
 able for him to have one of those rare nervous diseases 
 and at the same time suffer from nystagmus due to 
 his occupation. 
 
 2124. But he might suffer from nystagmus due to 
 the either disease, might he not ? — "That is so ; but 
 nystagmus would not, be the only symptom of those 
 other diseases. 
 
 2125., And a doctor who examined him could always 
 say with certainty that he was suffering from iwme 
 other disease that might give rise to nystagmus, could 
 
 he?— Yes. 
 
64 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 23 Nor. 1906. 
 
 Mr. F. 2126. Have you any idea, in your own mind, of the 
 
 Shuffle- frequency of those other diseases that might give rise 
 botham, M.B. to nystagmus amongst miners? — No; I cannot give 
 you any sl?.tistics on that point. 
 
 2127. Are they obtainable? — I do not know. 
 
 2128-9. My point is this : Given 50 miners who have 
 nystagmus, could you say that the probabilities are 
 that 40 of the cases were due to their occupation, and 
 that so many as 10 might be due to other nervous 
 diseases ? — I should think many more than 40 would 
 be due to the occupation. 
 
 2130. So that perhaps it would be only one or two 
 at the most which would be due to some other ailment? 
 Peinaps so — and less than that. 
 
 2131. Amd in those oases the examining medical 
 man could say this nystagmus is not miners' nystag- 
 mus, but is due to the spinal cord or other diseases ? — 
 That is so. 
 
 2132. To what process in mining is nystagmus due ? 
 — It is most generally found among those who are 
 engaged in the process of holing. 
 
 2133. AVhat does that consist of? — It consists in 
 undercutting the seam so as to get out the coal in 
 pieces as large as possible. The man lies in a con- 
 strained position on his side and strikes the coal at 
 the bottom of the seam with a horizontal swing. In 
 this work the muscles of the eyeballs are in a con- 
 tinually strained position. 
 
 2134. Can this disease be prevented by mechanical 
 methods ? — I am not prepared to answer that. 
 
 2135. Do you come across many oases of men who 
 are suffering from the disease who are incapacitated by 
 it, and cannot continue their employment ? — No ; I 
 have not come across any case of nystagmus where 
 the man has been incapacitated. I have come across 
 no cases of miners where the man has been incapaci- 
 tated through having nystagmus alone ; but I have not 
 the slightest doubt there are oases. I know there are 
 cases where it does produce incapacity for work ; but, 
 taking the cases of nystagmus as a whole, the propor- 
 tion of those where the man is incapacitated to those 
 in which he is not incapacitated would be very small. 
 
 2136. Of course, it is a disease of very gradual 
 ; growth 7 — Yes. 
 
 2137. If a man is incapacitated he might have had 
 nystagmus for many years before he was actually com- 
 
 -pelled to give up working?^ — Yes. 
 
 2138. If an employer employed him for 12 months 
 previous tO' his being incapacitated, there is no par- 
 ticular reason, is there, why he should pay compensa- 
 tion any more than any other employer for whom the 
 man has been working during his working life ? — That 
 is so. 
 
 2139. With regard to miners' " beat knee," and " beat 
 hand," have you had experieoice of those troubles? — 
 Tes, I have. 
 
 2140. Are they both more or less of the same nature ? 
 — Yes, they are caused in the same way. 
 
 2141. Have you come across many miners who are 
 prevented from working by " beat hand " or " beat 
 knee " ? — No, I cannot say that I have. I have seen 
 both cases a good many times, but I cannot say I have 
 seen a case where it has produced total incapacity for 
 work. 
 
 2142. It is simply a sore, is not it?— No, "beat 
 knee " is a chronic enlargement of the bursa over the 
 knee-cap. It is similar to "housemaid's knee." 
 
 2143. Then " beat hand " is a sore, is not it ? — " Beat 
 hand " is a chronic thickening of the cutaneous and 
 fascial structures of the palm of the hand, and it is 
 associated with a contraction of the fingers. There 
 may be soreness. 
 
 2144. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you mean by sore that it 
 has a sore surface ? — No, I mean that it is tender. 
 
 2145. (Chairman.) Are those things curable? — ^Yes, 
 they are curable, but there are cases of " beat hand " 
 which are not curable except by operation. 
 
 2146. Taking first " beat knee," it is easy to diagnose 
 it with certainty, is it ? — Yes. 
 
 2147. Is it distinctly a disease that arises from the 
 occupation? — Yes, I think it does in miners. Of 
 course, it arises in other occupations, too. As I have 
 said, a housemaid may have it. 
 
 2148. But is it especially prevalent amongst miners 7 
 —It is found amongst miners. I think it is very 
 difficult to say whether a man is incapacitated from it 
 or not. If he says he is incapacitated, the doctor may 
 know very well that he is not, but still, if he maintains 
 that he is, it is very difiicult to decide. There is no 
 arbitrary line which can be drawn between incapacity 
 and capacity for work. 
 
 2149. Have you personally had to treat many cases 
 of " beat knee " ? — I have not had to treat them in 
 miners, but I have seen them casually in exa,miiiing 
 miners who have come to me for examination for 
 injuries. 
 
 2150. But as a rule it is not a trouble that is bad 
 enough for them to go to the doctor ? — No, not as a rule. 
 
 2151. And do they get oiver it in course of time 7 — It 
 all depends on what they do. Of course, if the cause 
 is not removed, or if the man does not take care, it 
 may remain in the same condition, or even become 
 worse. 
 
 2152. But he can, with care, get rid of it without 
 being incapacitated from his work ? — Yes. 
 
 2153. With regard to the "beat hand," do the same 
 remarks apply ? — I do not think " beat hand " is any 
 more a miners' disease than it is any other occupational 
 disease. 
 
 2154. (Professor Allbutt.) Is it of the same nature as 
 the so-called Dupuytren's contraction ? — ^Yes. 
 
 2155. Which arises from handling tools 7 — ^Yes. In 
 the last year I have seen it in the case of a tailor, a 
 baker, a potter's mould-maker, an ex-Army instructor, 
 a coachman, as well as in a manufacturer whose prin- 
 cipal pastime was fishing. 
 
 2156. (Chairman.) Were the symptoms precisely the 
 same in all those cases ? — Yes. 
 
 2157. Have you come across any cases in which 
 miners have been incapacitated from work by this 
 complaint?— I cannot say that I have. I have seen 
 miners with the complaint, and it is quite possible 
 that there are miners who may be incapacitated from 
 using their tools when the disease is in an advanced 
 stage. 
 
 2158. Is it easily curable if taken in time? — It can 
 be prevented from getting worse. 
 
 2159. Would a man have to give up work in order 
 to undergo curative treatment ? — That all depends upon 
 the degree of severity. I would also like to say, with 
 regard to miners, that the condition is aggravated after 
 they have had a long holiday, or been ill, or on strike. 
 The tools havei either got rough or rusty, and that 
 irritates the hands, and aggravates the symptoms of 
 this complaint. 
 
 2160. (Professor Allbutt.) It might be due to a brief 
 suspension of employment, the tissues having lost 
 their habituation to the tool, and become more sus- 
 ceptible ?— That is so ; so that if there were a big 
 strike, and this were added to the schedule, after work 
 was resumed many men might claim compensation under 
 the Act. 
 
 2161. (Chairman.) While if it were not added to' the 
 schedule they would go on working, and would soon 
 get over it ? — That is so. 
 
 2162. Are there any other industrial diseases on 
 which you are prepared to give evidence ?— I do not 
 think so. 
 
 2163. (Mr. Cunynghame.) There is one question I 
 want to ask you with regard to nystagmus. You said 
 that very few men are incapacitated from work in a 
 mine on that account ?— As far as my experience goes, 
 yes. 
 
 2164. Does not that answer somewhat depend on 
 what one means by " incapacitated from work " ? You 
 may be slightly incapacitated so that you would earn a 
 penny lees a day than you would without the nystagmus, 
 I suppose?— Yes, but when I answered the question I 
 meant total incapacity. 
 
 2165. Might not there be a certain amount of par- 
 tial incapacity which would give rise to no end of diffi- 
 culty ?— I think it is quite possible there may be par- 
 tial incapacity from the nystagmus. 
 
 2166. And, consequently, instead of a small number 
 of men, you might have a very large number of men 
 suffering from more or less incipient and slight 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 65 
 
 nyetagmUB who might claim compensation for partial 
 disability, and whose cases it would be very difficult 
 to deal with ?-^Yes. 
 
 2167. We had it in evidence from Mr. Snell that in 
 a low mine evei-ybody had got it from looking 
 upwards, and there was no' other work, certainly below 
 ground, which th© men could doP — Of course, under 
 those conditions that would be so, but I take it that a 
 great deal depends on the working of the mine and the 
 character of th© working of th© mine. 
 
 2168. I am taking a low mine, where you have to 
 bend your head and look upwards ; the axis of the eyes 
 has to be upwards in regard to the skull ?■ — The worker 
 might have his work transferred to that of timbering 
 or loading. 
 
 2160. But we have it in evidence that roof-ripping, 
 for example, is one of the most likely causes to give 
 it — that you are engaged in timbering and cutting the 
 roof, and have to look upwards ? — But still the timberer 
 has assistants, and a man suffering from nystagmu* 
 might assist in that work. 
 
 2170. But he would still have nystagmus, and would 
 urge that he was partially incapacitated from work 
 accordingly, would not he ? — Yes. 
 
 2171. So that it comes back to this, does not it, 
 that you might have a very large number of very small 
 claims ? — That is so, and I have not the slightest doubt 
 that if this disease be added to the schedule, greater 
 attention will be paid to nystagmus in the future than 
 there has been in the past. 
 
 2172. But unfortunately this does not seem to be a 
 disease that there is any mode of preventing as long 
 as the mines are low? — That is so. 
 
 2173. So that when you say greater attention would 
 be paid to it you mean greater attention in curing it 
 than in preventing it ? — Greater attention would be 
 paid to diagnosing the complaint, that is to say, the 
 number of known cases would materially increase. 
 Every miner would want to know whether he had 
 nystagmus or not. 
 
 2174. I suppose, after all, you would say, as a medi- 
 cal man, thE.-o' there are very few professions or trades 
 in this country that do not bring about more or lees 
 some physical disability of some kind? — That is so. 
 It is simply a question of being influenced by one's 
 environments. 
 
 2175. Even cricket might bring about cricketers' 
 hands ?— Yes : " Beat hand." Or golfers might have 
 " beat hands." 
 
 2176. So that there is a large amount of physical 
 disability in th© country that may be regarded as al- 
 most inevitable in a country which carries on profes- 
 sions, trades, or ©ven amusements ? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 2177. Then it could hardly be said, could it, of every 
 single occupation where that occupation brings on 
 some sort of physical disability, it should be treated 
 necessarily as a physical disability, it should be treated 
 trade? — Quite so. 
 
 2178. I suppose you would admit that a man must 
 be prepared, who is earning his livelihood in some way 
 or other, to submit to a certain amount of danger or 
 physical incapacity from it, which only in certain cases 
 becomes very serious ? — That is so. 
 
 2179. You will agree perhaps that it is not everybody 
 who can show that his profession has injured him, who 
 could fairly have a right t-o claim compensation?— 1 hat 
 is so. Take the case of farm labourers. They are 
 subject to all th© variations in the weather, and, conse- 
 quently they are subject to rheumatism to a far greater 
 extent than people whose occupations are indoors. 
 
 2180. So that if you proceeded to put everything into 
 the schedule that could possibly arise out of an occu- 
 pation, Jrou would put rheumatism for agricultural 
 labourers? — That is so. 
 
 2181. Then you would agree that, whatever the logic 
 of it is, in putting diseases into the schedule there 
 must be a clear and very strong case mad© out before 
 you, as a medical man, could say that it was a disease 
 that ought to be regarded as appertaining specially 
 to the industry ?— That is so. 
 
 2182. (Professor Allbuit.) So far as the holing opera- 
 tion is concerned, if the man works from the base, as 
 I understand he always does, the thickness of the 
 seam is not of much importance ? — No. 
 
 419 
 
 2183. That would only concern the people engaged Mr. F. 
 in running the coal, and so on ? — That is £0. Shuffle- 
 
 2184. Have you seen nystagmus arising in occupa- ^othwnsju.v. 
 tions other than mining ? — I have seen it, but I do 23 Nov. 1905. 
 
 not know whether it is due to the occupation or not. 
 
 This year I have seen a case in a coachman, who is 
 coachman to a coalowner, but he has never been down 
 
 a mine in his life. 
 
 2185. Do you know of any method by which you can 
 a6c©rtain whether a person affected with nystagmus is 
 su|Fering from it or not ?— Yes ; there aa-© cases wh©re 
 giddiness is associated with nystagmus. 
 
 2186. Still, that depends on a man's word, does not 
 it? — Well, if he reels or staggers there is an objective 
 symptom. I dO' not know of any other symptom. 
 
 2187. I mean the objective distress would not lead to 
 a man losing flesh or becoming ill, or weaken his nervous 
 system; that he might still retain the appearance of 
 health although suffering seriously ? — Quit© so. 
 
 2188. To put the matter in another way, there is no 
 direct relation, apparently, between the degree of nys- 
 tagmus and th© d©gree of incapacity ? — A man 
 might have nystagmus badly and not suffer, and 
 another man might have nystagmus slightly and 
 suffer? — Quite so. There is no relation whatever. 
 
 2189. Is the susceptibility high, do you think? — I 
 could not say. In North Staffordshire it is much rarer 
 than in the Sheffield district. 
 
 2190. But between man and man, do I understand 
 that the variation of personal susceptibility is not very 
 high ? — I do not think so, except when working under 
 certain conditions for a considerable period of time. 
 
 ■ 2191. One man might be affected very soon and 
 another man, even if he ultimately got it, might be a 
 very long time in getting it ? — Yes, quite so. 
 
 2192. As regards the " beat knee," is that the en- 
 larged bursa that you see in housemaids, for instance? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2193. To which anybody who kneels is subject ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2194. That is painful when in an irritable condi- 
 tion, is not it ? — That is so. 
 
 2195. Do you practise surgery.'' — Yes, I do. 
 
 2196. It is within the resources of surgery to say 
 whether the bursa is in a state of irritation or not, is 
 it not ? — That is so. 
 
 2197. And when it is in a state of irritation a man 
 is unable to work? — He may be unable to work. 
 
 2198. And would you look forward to that being 
 subdued by a certain interval of rest? — ^Yes. 
 
 2199. When, although he might still have bursa, it 
 would be painless? — That is so. 
 
 2200. By th© use of c©rtain pads, such as ar© now 
 regularly sold for housemaids, could it be prevented, do 
 you think ? — I suppose it could, at any rate, largely. 
 
 2201. As regards the " beat hand," if the contractioili 
 was extreme it would be awkward to use a tool, would, 
 not it?— Yes. 
 
 2202. And if it was the right hand it would be more 
 awkward still, would not it, if the man was a right- 
 handed man? — Yes. 
 
 2203. Even a non-medical man might form a fair 
 opinion as to how far the contraction was such as to 
 make it difficult to use a tool?— That is so, but the 
 difficulty would be as to whether the condition was 
 caused by his work or by some hobby. Suppose, for 
 instance a man was an amateur gardener and worked 
 4 or 5 hours with a spade each day, it would be diffi- 
 cult then to say how much the condition was due to 
 his hobby, and how much to his work. 
 
 2204. W© see it, do we not, in the cases of persons not 
 engaged in manual labour who have probably, in some 
 way, irritated or injured the hand, and a very slight 
 cause has brought it on? — Yes. 
 
 2205. Is "beat hand" traumatic in origin? — If 
 " traumatic " could be used to a most chronic condi- 
 tion. I should like to say, with regard to the coach- 
 man I mentioned (because it raises another point) 
 suffering from nystagmus, he was the coachman to a 
 colliery proprietor. He broke his arm and was not 
 allowed to drive any more. As a matter of fact, he 
 
 1 
 
GC 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 -Vr. F. 
 
 Shuffle- 
 
 botham. m. n. 
 
 23 N 
 
 ov. 190G. 
 
 did get employment on the surface of the colliery, but 
 had that man gone into the mine to work, it is quite 
 possible that, say, in 12 months' time, if he had met 
 with any accident, his eyes would have been examined 
 in the ordinary way for nystagmus, and it might have 
 
 been put down to the nature of his employment, 
 whereas he had it before. 
 
 2206. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You have explained, 1 
 think, that nystagmus might be contracted in other 
 things besides mining? — Yes. 
 
 EIGHTH DAY. 
 
 Thursday, 29th November 1906. 
 
 MEMBEES PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hbxrt Cuxyxghame, c.b. {in the Chair). 
 
 Pbofessor CLirroED Axmuit, f.r.s. r Mr. T. E. Bettant (Adinrj Secretary). 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. ' 
 
 Mr. William Murray, ]M.D., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 29 Nov. 1906. 
 
 2207. (Chairman.) What is your present positioa in 
 MurravM D. Birmingham ? — I am in general practice. 
 
 2208. Were you resident surgeon at the Birminghanj 
 General Dispensary from 1898 to 1900 ?— Yes. 
 
 2209. (Professor Allhutt.) Is that a public charity 1 
 —Yes. 
 
 2210. (Chairman.) Is most of what you are about to 
 tell us derived from the experiences of those years, 
 though you have come across some cases in general 
 practice since? — That is so. 
 
 2211. What is the peculiar disease that you are going 
 to deal with ? What do you call it 1 — The name I give 
 it is chronic brass poisoning ; but I should like to say 
 that in vmting my precis I forgot to mention brass 
 founders' ague. 
 
 2212. Are brass poisoning and brass founders' ague 
 two different things ? — They are two different aspects 
 of the same condition. 
 
 2213. May we call it one disease — brass founders' 
 disease ? — The name I should prefer to call it is brass 
 poisoning as a general term. 
 
 2214. Before you describe the symptoms of brass 
 poisoning, can you say that it is a characteristic disease 
 that could be picked out even though a practitioner did 
 not know a man had been working in brass? If you 
 saw a man ill, who was dumb, and who could not tell 
 you what ho had been doing, is the disease so suffi- 
 ciently marked that you could say at once that the man 
 had brass poisoning ? — I think so ; I think as definitely 
 as lead poisoning. 
 
 2215. Will you tell the Committee in simple language 
 what the characteristic symptoms are that mark it 
 out, taking a strongly developed case first? — In the 
 early stage the first symptoms Would be those of 
 ansemia; they would be accompanied by excessive 
 debility, nervousness, neuralgic pains, and the teeth 
 would show a green line at the bases. 
 
 2216. Is that an invariable symptom in the sense that 
 if that green line was absent you would suspect it was 
 something else ; has that green line to be always pre- 
 sent 1 — ^I 'Should say so. 
 
 2217. You see what we are seeking for is something 
 characteristics ? — Yes, but I should like to explain that 
 you may have the greon line without any such disease 
 at all. The green line would be antecedent to any 
 other symptoms. 
 
 2218. But the green line would be characteristic of 
 breiss poisoning, would it ? — It would always be there. 
 
 2219. Is it a different colour to what is known as the 
 lead line ?— -It is a different colour, and in a different 
 position. The lead line is on the gum ; the green line 
 is on the teeth. 
 
 2220. Without that green line would you be unable, 
 
 if you did not know what the man had been working at, 
 to put it down definitely, or would you put it down that 
 it was probably brass-workers' disease?— I would not 
 put it down as brass-workers' disease without the green 
 line. 
 
 2221. Does that green line assimilate to the symptoms 
 of any other disease or oonditiom that you know of ?— 
 Not that I know of. 
 
 2222. Then it is absolutely characteristic, is it?— 
 Yes, unless we are to include copper poisoning, which 
 probably is the same thing. 
 
 2223. Does copper poisoning produce exactly the 
 same green line ? — Yes, and it is undoubtedly the copper 
 in the brass which is responsible for that green line. 
 
 2224. What would be the characteristics in later 
 stages ?— Emaciation, tremors, cold sweatings, cough, 
 extreme weakness, and a greenish complexion. 
 
 2225. Is that greenish complexion again characteris- 
 tic, so that if it did not exist you would be doubtful 
 whether the disease was present ?i— No, I should not say 
 so ; I should not call it essential, because it is rather a 
 sign of an advanced case. 
 
 2226. Still, if the case were advanced, would you 
 Bxpect to find that greenish complexion? If the man 
 were very ill, very emaciated, and very bad, would you 
 expect to find it ? — I would. 
 
 2227. In a case where a man was very ill, and had 
 some of the other symptoms you mention, but had not 
 the greenish complexion nor the copper line, would you 
 be able to pronounce that it was not the disease ? — Yes. 
 
 2228. It is not then a disease that can be very easily 
 simulated by a man malingering ?^No, I feel certain it 
 could not be malingered. 
 
 2229. Not unless he were to paint his teeth in a very 
 elaborate manner ; in an ordinary way you think do 
 you, it would be a very difficult thing to simulate?— I 
 think so. 
 
 223a Therefore, do you think that a conscientous 
 practitioner, particularly if he were provided with the 
 cluo by either the employer or the workman, ought to 
 have no great difficulty in recognising this as charac- 
 teristic of brass poisoning ?— I do not think he should. 
 
 2231. Can you give the Committee any idea of the 
 extent to which men in the trade are 'subject to this 
 disease T Have you formed any estimate as to that ?— I 
 could not answer that question. 
 
 2232. When the disease is caught in the earlier 
 utages, is it a difficult matter to cure?— I think it is 
 very easy. 
 
 2233. How would you treat it ?— I should put them 
 under phosphorus treatment. 
 
 2234. How long would it be before a man would get 
 5ver the disease ?— With treatment or without ? 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 67 
 
 2235. With treatment ?— With treatment, in three 
 weeks, approximately. 
 
 2236. Would it in the advanced stages incapacitate 
 him perhaps for the rest of his life, or is it a thing that 
 can be cured at any stage ?— In my experience it can be 
 cured at any stage unless we are dealing with complica- 
 tions. The disease itself can be cured quite easily at 
 any stage. 
 
 2237. The more severe forms would take longer to 
 cure, I suppose ? — Yes, probably a week or two. 
 
 2238. Not longer than that 1—1 do not thinik it is ever 
 a matter of more than weeks. 
 
 2239. Do you mean that the poison by proper treat- 
 inent cam be eliminated from the system ? — ^Yes. 
 
 2240. Does a man become more likely to get the 
 disease from having had it beforehand when he goes 
 back again to his work, or not?— I should say yes, 
 aertainly. 
 
 2241. It i3 true, is it not, that the preliminarj 
 symptoms are got by a great many men at the begin- 
 ning of their work, and that after a few weeks they 
 become immune to the poison to a large extent, and 
 can go on working? — ^After having first shown the 
 symptoms, do you mean? 
 
 2242. Yes ; I have heard or read somewhere that 
 the men may suffer for the first few days, then appar- 
 ently they seem to get accustomed to the poison, and 
 go on without much inconvenience. Have you any- 
 thing to say as to that ? — Not from personal experi- 
 ence, because those would be the cases which would 
 not come under my notice. 
 
 2243. Have you met with cases of vomiting con- 
 nected with the disease ? — Yes. 
 
 2244. Is that more or less a preliminary symptom? 
 — I do not think I should call it a preliminary symp- 
 tom, unless it is preliminary, say, to a person consult- 
 ing a medical man. 
 
 2245. But it doe? bring on vomiting, does it not? — 
 Yes, there is occasional vomiting. 
 
 2246. Do men die from the disease ? — No, I feel sure 
 they do not. 
 
 2247. In your opinion is this what it comes to : 
 that it is a disease which, when caught, incapacitates a 
 man for a period of from one week up to three or foul 
 weeks, but the poison can be eliminated from the 
 system by proper treatment • and proper rest, and 
 then he is fit to go back to his work, when, of course, 
 he may be poisoned again? — Just so. 
 
 2248. I suppose certain constitutions are more prone 
 to take the poison than others ? — That is so. 
 
 2249. What is the effect of habits of life, such as 
 intemperance, and so on, in connection with this 
 disease? — I think the condition is aggravated by in- 
 temperance, but th;it is not a point on which I should 
 like to be very dogmatic. 
 
 2250. Have you formed any opinion as to the 
 chemical nature of the substance that gets into the 
 lungs of the men, and that causes the illness?' I am 
 afraid it is an extremely difficult question, but have 
 you formed any opinion upon it? — The only opinion 
 I can express is that it is due to the absorption of 
 the copper more than the zinc, although it is possible 
 the zinc may have some effect on them. 
 
 2251. Is there any work in bronze in Birmingham to 
 any extent — bronze fusing or melting? — Yes. 
 
 2252. Is it the fact that the bronze workers and 
 casters get the disease in the same way as brass 
 workers ? — I do not know. 
 
 2253. Of course, bronze would contain only copper 
 and tin, and not copper and zinc, would it not ? — I do 
 not remember a case in which a man described him- 
 self as a worker in bronze. 
 
 2254. You have no opinion then, have you, to give 
 on the question of bronze-casting factories as dis- 
 tinguished from brass works ? — No, I have not. 
 
 2255. Do you attribute the disease, as far as youi 
 opinion goes, more to the copper in the compound 
 than to the zinc? — Yes. 
 
 2256. Have you ever seen these factories and been 
 into them? — ^Yes. 
 
 2257. There are clouds of white oxide of zinc which 
 form round the ceilings after the pouring has taken 
 
 419 
 
 place, are there not? — That is so in the casting sheds, Mr. W. 
 but those are not the places where we get these typical Mun-a)/,u.'D 
 forms of poisoning from. We get those in the work- ■^r~~:nna 
 shops where the filing, turning, and polishing is done ; ~^ ^'^906 
 it is in the casting sheds you get the brass-founders' 
 ague. 
 
 2258. The brass-workers' disease you are speaking 
 of results from inhaling the brass dust, does it?— 
 Yes, and principally inhaling the dust which is float- 
 ing about in the workshop. 
 
 2259. (Professor AllbuU.) Inhaling brass dust ?— In- 
 haling brass dust. 
 
 2260. (Chairman.) Then tnere is a variety of the 
 disease which is got by the brass founders, is there 
 not ?— Yes. 
 
 2261. Can you diSerentiate between those two dis- 
 eases ? — Yes ; they are very different. The disease the 
 brass founder suffers from is an ague. The wholp 
 illness lasts for perhaps a day. In brass-fo'unders' 
 ague the principal feature is shivering. It begins 
 first of all with a feeling of depression and general 
 pains, then a period of shivering comes, in which the 
 man sits with his teeth chattering and with pains 
 in his back. After a period in this condition he 
 generally becomes very warm, and breaks out into 
 profuse sweating, goes to sleep, and wakes up in the 
 morning, not quite well, but in the course of the day 
 it parses off, and the whole Ulness is over. 
 
 2262. Then do I understand the illnesses of the 
 brass founders do not last more than a day in any 
 case, and that is the whole extent of the illness? — 
 Yes, vomiting is generally a prominent feature of that. 
 
 2263. But shivering is also a feature of the other 
 disease, is it not? — Yes, but it is different, more like 
 the tremors you find in a man addicted to alcohol. 
 
 2264. I suppose the fumes of the foundry are never 
 fatal, in fact? — No. 
 
 2265. Have you any idea to what causes illnesses in 
 brass foundries may be attributed or what form the 
 copper or zinc fumes take ? — No, I have not. 
 
 2266. Then brass workers' disease may occur in 
 many trades, I suppose, where the filing of brass of 
 any kind or sort is common? — Yes, where the raw 
 brass is used. 
 
 2267. Does the raw brass ever get into the workmen's 
 lungs ; have you any evidence of that ? — Yes. 
 
 2268. Have you found that from post-mortems? — 
 I can only remranber one case in which I did, because, 
 as I have said, they do not die. I remember one case 
 of a brass worker whose bronchial glands were cut 
 out, and we found copper present in them. 
 
 2269. Did you find grains, or were they merely 
 stained ? — I got one of the men at the University to 
 boil it down, and extract the copper, and he found 
 traces of copper. 
 
 2270. Was it in the shape of grains, tending to pro- 
 duce such a condition as fibroid phthisis or any similar 
 condition ? Was it in that shape which steel dust 
 takes when it gets into the lungs and produces fibroid 
 phthisis? Was there anything of that kind in this 
 case ? — In this case the examination was purely 
 chemical, not microscopical. 
 
 2271. Then you have not any evidence that this 
 brass dust produces fibroid phthisis like steel dust or 
 grindstone dust does ? — I have no evidence that I 
 could bring forward personally, but it is a well recog- 
 nised fact that fibrosis does result from working in 
 brass. 
 
 2272. And that the condition is produced by the 
 occupation, and is not phthisis due to the ordinary 
 chances which anyone is liable to ? — Oh, no ; I think it 
 is a well-established fact that the inhalation of the 
 particles produces fibroid phthisis, which is of course 
 totally different from the ordinary tubercular phthisis. 
 
 2273. (Professor AllbuU.) One very important point 
 in regard to brass workers' disease is that copper is an 
 essential, is not it? — Yes. 
 
 2274. Would you go as far as to call it copper 
 poisoning, or do you think it is poisoning by an alloy ? 
 —I should be quite willing to call it copper poison- 
 ing if it could be proved that the zinc is harmless. 
 You get very much the same symptoms in workers in 
 copper. 
 
 I 2 
 
68 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 Murraj/,M.l). 
 
 -29 Nov. 1906 
 
 2275. Can you give the Committee any information 
 about copper poisoning in other trades ? — I have no 
 experience of copper poisoning amongst those who 
 work purely in copper. 
 
 2275. There are a large number of copper workers 
 working, I suppose, in copper piping, and so on? — I 
 suppose that is so. 
 
 2277. Have not you heard of any poisoning in those 
 tradest — No, I have not come across any cases. 
 
 2278. Is it your opinion, when this disease does occur 
 amongst brass workers that it is caused by the inhal- 
 ing of the dust? — ^Yes, I think so. 
 
 2279. Swallowing it ? — ^Probably swallowing it too. 
 
 2280. The poiso'uing to which you refer is not evi- 
 dently pulmona.ry ; its pulmonary symptoms are almost 
 nil, are they not? The constitutional symptoms are 
 far more important? — Yes, but a cough is a very 
 common thing. 
 
 2281. If there is inhalation of (last and swaUowiag 
 dust, one might expect a combination of constitutional 
 and pulmonary symptoms, I suppose? — Yes. 
 
 2282. From the description generally given of this 
 disease, it is the constitutional symptoms which 
 appear, and these are attributable to dust-swallowing 
 and the dust getting into the stomach ? — ^Yes. 
 
 2283. There is not any agent more volatile than the 
 dust itself ? — I should think it was simply the dust ; 
 there are a number of other symptoms ; of course I 
 only mentioned the salient features, but there is the 
 metallic taste in the mouth, the dryness in the throat 
 
 — the laryngeal symptoms, which point to local 
 irritation. 
 
 2284. The dust getting into the air passages, I sup- 
 ;po6« ? — Yes. 
 
 2285. In this disease apparently there is no definite 
 and preponderating sequence of symptoms? — No. 
 
 2286. Beyond becoming a little more vulnerable, the 
 patient gets back to pretty much the condition in which 
 he was before ? — Yes. 
 
 2237. So that it is quite calculable what would 
 happen ? — Yes. 
 
 2288. Has any blood examination been made of 
 these men ?■ — I have not made any ; I do not know if 
 anybody else has. 
 
 2289. Are cases of this kind common ? Do you think 
 it is likely you could, or any of the witnesses could, find 
 a case at the hospital ?— If he has medical out-patients 
 I should think he could. 
 
 2290. But they do not go into the wards so that 
 blood examinations would be made. You said some- 
 thing about tremors. Are the tremors the mere shaki- 
 ness' of any debilitating cause, or are they character- 
 istic? — I have never found anything characteristic 
 about them. 
 
 2291. There is nothing special about the tremors ?— 
 I only meant to differentiate them from the shivering 
 attacks in ague. 
 
 2292. Have you ever seen the hot and sweating 
 stages.? — I have not, and very few medical men have. 
 'These people do not take the trouble to go to a doctor. 
 They simply go home, go to bed, and the next day they 
 are well. But I have had descriptions qurte vivid 
 enough to accept what fell from some of these men, who 
 have mentioned the sweating stage, and I have been 
 very particular to inquire about it. 
 
 2293. And it would be very difiScult, I suppose, at the 
 time to differentiate it from an ordinary case of 
 malaria ? — Yes, I should think so. 
 
 2294. And as regards any ulterior consequences, it 
 is negligible, I suppose ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 2295. I do not know that you can help us very much 
 more about the fibroid phthisis matter. The death 
 rate from consumption is very high, is it not, in Bir- 
 mingham ?— I believe it is ; I cannot say what it is. 
 
 2296. And you cannot at all say whether you think 
 that the brassworkers might contribute an important 
 element to that high rate?— I could not say from any 
 personal experience, but I remember Dr. Perry went 
 into the matter some two years ago, and I feel certain 
 he came to the conclusion that there was a distinct 
 connection between brassworking and liability to 
 phthisis. 
 
 2297. From your dispensary experience would you 
 say that a large proportion of your cases of chronic 
 phthisis were amongst brassworkers? — I should not. 
 
 2298. You think not ?— No. 
 
 2299. Is your dispensary far from the districts where 
 the brassworkers' industry is carried on, or do you 
 think you receive a fair average of cases of this nature? 
 — It has different branches, and I was at three of them. 
 
 2300. So that they would give a fair reflection of th© 
 disease, you think ? — I think so. 
 
 2301. It has not struck you, then, that it is a very 
 important element in the excess of the phthisis rate in 
 Birmingham? — I do not think brassworking is any 
 more important an element than any other debilitating 
 work. 
 
 2302. I was referring to rather more than debility ; I 
 was referring to the injury done by particles of brass 
 getting into the lung tissues ? — Your point is, are brasa- 
 workers specially liable tv, oonxract phthisis? From the 
 fibroid phthisis point of view I think they are. 
 
 2303. Is it then your opinion that workers in brass 
 contribute any large proportion of cases of what we 
 popularly called the phthisis death rate in Birming- 
 ham? — I do not think they would contribute very 
 largely, though they might to some extent. I say so 
 because in brass cases I have so very seldom seen 
 either tubercular phthisis or fibroid phthisis. 
 
 2304. Do you know if in the museums here there is 
 any important collection of lungs exhibiting such 
 diseases ? — ^I have never heard of any. 
 
 2305. You have told the Committee that you have 
 visited these works yourself. In visiting them did you 
 find coughs common amongst the workers t — ^Yes. 
 
 2306. Did there appear to be among them chTonio 
 cases of phthisis, using the word in the common sense, 
 or do you think the men looked upon their occupa- 
 tion as a dangerous one ? — No, I think not. 
 
 2307. (Dr. Legge.) You say you saw cases when you 
 
 were at one of the dispensaries during three years? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 2308. Did you hear of the disease from your pre- 
 decessor ? — No. 
 
 2309. Or from your successor? — ^I heard of it from my 
 
 successor. 
 
 2310. During that time, roughly, how many cases do 
 you think you saw ?— During the three years I was there 
 I should think about lOO. 
 
 2311. Then your predecessor would have had such 
 eases, but his attention not being specially directed to 
 the occupation, what would he describe them as?— I 
 could not say. I should say debility. 
 
 2312. You said that the train of symptoms were as 
 pronounced, in your opinion, as those of lead poisonina ? 
 —I think so. ^ 
 
 2313. Taking the symptoms you have mentioned— 
 ansemia, debility, nervousness, neuralgic pains, emacia- 
 tion, tremors, cold sweating, greenish complexion 
 cough, and the green line— which of those would you 
 considea- were pathognomonic symptoms, or would you 
 be able to distinguish them from neurasthenia? "Would 
 the mere association of a group of such symptoms pro- 
 duce a condition that yooi would be able to diagnose? 
 — Yes. ° 
 
 2314 With regard to the green line, with th© excep- 
 tion ot the one instance where you say in th© gland a 
 trace of copper was found, have you any proof that the 
 body becomes saturated with copper or brass, or that it 
 is more than a mere local deposit of brass dust on the 
 teeth .''—You have green sweat. 
 
 2315. Is there any proof in green sweat other than 
 that It is a local deposit of brass dust on the body 
 which IS bronght out by the sweating? Have you seen 
 green hair?-Y6s, of course. Gre?n hair might bo 
 accounted for by a deposit of dust on the hair. 
 
 2316. Has any test to your knowledge been madfe, 
 beyond that one of th© analysis of the bronchial gland 
 -Aowmg whether m the liver, or in th© kidneys or in 
 the stomach, th©re is any trace of copper to be found? 
 —No, I do not know of a case. 
 
 2317. Has urine ever been tested, do you know, for 
 evidence of copper ?— I do not know that it has. 
 
 2318. Supposing a medical man were to describe a 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 69 
 
 ^rassworker as suffering from neurasthenia, how could 
 you say ho was not suffering from neurasthenia, but 
 from the effects of brass poisoning? — I do not know, 
 ■except on the ground of common senses. 
 
 2319. That he was working in brass? — That he waa 
 working in brass andliad the green line. 
 
 2320. (Chairman.) I suppose you axe reduced to in- 
 sforence to a certain extent ? — ^Yes, to a certain extent. 
 
 2321. It may be a strong one, but still it is an 
 inference? — It is an inference; but the feeling I have 
 ^bout it is that when you have seen a few ca,s6s you get 
 -a, distinct clinical picture which you cannot mistake for 
 jieurasthenia or anything, else. I have frequently seen 
 neurasthenia in brassworkers which I have not put 
 ^own or made, a note of as brass poisoning at all. 
 
 2322. It shows that there may be practical diificulties 
 in th€( way of a diagnosis ? — ^Yee. 
 
 2323. {Professor AUbuit.) Is the series ot symptoms 
 Sairly uniform I — I think it is. A brass worker might 
 be thought to be suffering from neuralgia, which might 
 be thought nothing of, but when he comes to describe a 
 -condition which has been going on for weeks and 
 months, and he has been becoming weaker and weaker, 
 T,nd he has this pallor, and cold sweating, and pains 
 here and there, you get a picture which is quite 
 distinct, I think. 
 
 2324. (Dr. Legge.) Supposing brass poisoning were 
 included in the Third Schedule to the Workmen's Com- 
 .pensation Bill and the workman received compensation 
 -while he was absent from work, would there be risk, 
 •do you think, of a brass worker, who was suffering from 
 -some ordinary disease, coughing and so on, receiving 
 •compensation? Would the train of symptoms be so 
 defined that a man could say, " This is brass poison- 
 ing, and the workman is entitled to compensation " ? — 
 I think he could. 
 
 2325. Can you say how long the disease takes to 
 "develop? — I can only say that it is extremely variable. 
 
 2326. Have you ever seen it developed in as short a 
 time as a month ? — ^No, I do not think I have. 
 
 2327. Do you think it is a question of susceptibility ? 
 — I think there is susceptibility. 
 
 2328. Have you any view as to the age of the 
 •workers who suffer most from the disease ?— The young 
 •ones — the boys and girls. 
 
 2329. Under twenty years of age? — ^Yes, or there- 
 abouts. 
 
 2330. With regard to brass founders' ague ; in your 
 description of the symptoms, you said that the workers 
 
 ■*went through a hot stage. Have you heard that from 
 the workers themselves ? — Yes. 
 
 2331. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you volunteer any evi- 
 •dence as to prevention ? — ^Nothing definite except as to 
 ventilation. I did suggest supplying the workmen 
 vfith water acidulated with phosphoric acid, but I 
 know It is difficult or almost impossible to supply 
 'these workmen with anything they would take. 
 
 2332. (Chairman.) But if they would drink a certain 
 ■quantity of it, and were made to do it, would it dis- 
 tinctly relieve them ? — I think it would. 
 
 2333. You are aware that under the Bill there is a 
 provision that if a man deliberately neglects some 
 ■fjrecaution that is pointed out for saving him from the 
 
 29 Nov. 1906. 
 
 disease, he may lose his compensation. If that is so, ]Ur_ [p?_ 
 it would be a powerful incentive to the men tO' take and Murray, m.d. 
 drink what was provided for them, would it not ? — Yes. 
 
 2334. And this phosphorus solution would not be 
 injurious otherwise to health, would it ? — No, I do not 
 think so. Of course, it is merely a suggestion which 
 might not be a practical one. 
 
 2335. From a medical point of view, if we could 
 make them drink it, do you think it would have a 
 considerable effect in reducing the poisoning ? — I think 
 so. 
 
 2336. From the quickness with which it acts as an 
 antidote, would it prevent the symptoms appearing in 
 the case of the brass founders and brass workers ? — That 
 depends on the origin of brass founders? ague. If it 
 was due to anything but copper, I should say probably 
 not ; it would probably have no effect on brassf ounders' 
 ague. 
 
 2337. But it would have an effect on the brass- 
 workers, you think? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 2338. (Dr. Legge.) You wrote your paper in the year 
 1899, did you not ?— Yes. 
 
 2339. At that time do you know whether the dust 
 was removed from the polishing benches? — I think it 
 was, in a desultory sort of way. 
 
 2340. Do you know now whether the exhaust system 
 of ventilation has been applied generally or through- 
 out th© brass-polishiiig shops ? — I have heard that that 
 is so. 
 
 2341. Have you been able to associate any diminu- 
 tion in the disease with that ? — I do not come across 
 the disease now. 
 
 2342. Have you not heard it referred to' — I have 
 heard it referred to by brasswork employers. 
 
 3if43. How do they describe the state of ihe work- 
 men's health now, as better or worse? — They always 
 said it was good ; they do not like to admit there is 
 anything unhealthy about their work. I was talking 
 the othei^ evening to an employer, who considers it un- 
 nealthy work, and wno is himself struck with the 
 amount of brass poisoning, if I may call it so. He 
 says there is extreme difficulty in working the venti- 
 lating apparatus, that the fans or exhausts do not 
 work at all satisfactorily. 
 
 2344. Do you know whether he was referring to 
 brass casting or brass polishing? — Brass polishing — 
 we were talking about brass polishing — he also spoke 
 of the impossibility of getting the men to take any- 
 thing. He said that they were given water to drink, 
 but they poured it out ; they were given basins to 
 wash in, but they never washed. 
 
 2345. (Professor Allhutt.) Thus we have to deal with 
 three diseases — ague, brassworkers' disease, and fibroid 
 phthisis. It seems that the diseases of which you 
 speak can be distinguished under those three heads? 
 —Yes, 
 
 2346. To go back , to ague, do you say the cause is 
 unknown? — Except that it is in the fumes. 
 
 2347. Brassworkers' poisoning is poisoning by 
 copper, in your opinion, I understand? — ^Yes. 
 
 2348. But the fibroid phthisis is not specific, and 
 would be comparable with the complaints resulting 
 from any dusty occupation? — Yes. 
 
 Me. Bobeet M. Shion, m.d., called in and examined. 
 
 2349. (Chairman.) Dr. Murray, the last witness, 
 pointed out that there appeared to be two, if not 
 three, particular different, diseases that people working 
 in brass might be subject to. The first be called the 
 brassworkers' disease, due he thought to the absorption 
 •of brass dust into the system. Then there was a second 
 disease which he thought was derived in some way 
 from exposure tO' the fumes in brass founding, and then, 
 but more hesitatingly, he thought that fibroid phthisis 
 "was in some way got by some of the men engaged in 
 the brass trade. I should like to know whether that 
 division accords with your view or whether you wish 
 to correct it ? — I do not understand your first division. 
 
 2350. Dr. Murray considered that the brassworkers, 
 being men engaged in filing brass, were subject to 
 poisoning by the absorption into the system of brass 
 dust. Would ihitt accord with your view? — I am not 
 
 aware of any symptoms which are associated with filing 
 brass other than those which may arise from dust. 
 The dust is exceedingly heavy, and it is much more 
 likely to arise from the material used in turning and 
 polishing brass. 
 
 2351. You may take it as though my question in- 
 cluded turning, polishing, filing, and manipulating 
 brass ? — I do not think there are any specific symptoms 
 associated with the use of brass as. a material in that 
 relation. I might emphasize that by saying that I 
 think they are in exactly the same category with any 
 other occupation in which there isi much dust. 
 
 2352. Then you donot think that the absorption of 
 dust from the brass is material t — I think it would be 
 extremely difficult to absorb brass-dust. 
 
 2353. Do not you think there is any characteristic 
 
 Mr. R. M. 
 Simon, M.D. 
 
70 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 jVt. R. Ji. disease ai'ising from the absorption of brass dust? — I 
 Simon. M I), do not. 
 
 29 Xnv 19;,0 2354. Is there any phthisis caught by the inhalation 
 
 ' _' ' of brass dust ? — No, I think not. Perhaps I might very 
 
 briefly state my views. I would say that there are 
 certain symptoms associated with brass founding (of 
 which I would like to speaJi later) in which there are 
 copious fumes given ofi. 
 
 2355. (Professor Allhuti.) Do the same men work in 
 the shops and in the foundry ? — ^No. If I were to say 
 definitely what I think, I can put it precisely in this 
 way : brass founders are liable to symptoms from their 
 occupation, and no- other class of brassworker is liable 
 to brass-founders' disease. 
 
 2356. {Chairman.) Does that finish what you have to 
 say about brass-working as contrasted with brass- 
 founding? — Qtiite so. 
 
 2357. Will you tell us in your own way what you have 
 to say about brass-founding? — Perhaps you are aware 
 that I was on a departmental committee some years ago 
 which inquired into industrial diseases, and in that 
 capacity visited the casting shops in different parts of 
 
 - England, especially those in Birmingham. We 
 found the conditions in these biass-foundry shops 
 or casting shops vacied very much, but where 
 the conditions were good and the fumes could be elimi- 
 nated, there was little liability to what is erroneously, 
 in my opinion, described as brass-founders' ague, and 
 a diminished tendency to the occurrence of bronchitis 
 from the irritation caused by the fumes of zinc, or from 
 the deposit of zinc from cooling in the air. Where the 
 conditions of work were good there was comparatively 
 very little liability to bronchitis, and also, I believe, 
 in a patholo'gioal sense, less liability to the occurrence 
 of fibroid phthisis. 
 
 2358. What are the symptoms of the brass-founding 
 disease? How would you describe the disease? 
 Would you use the expression " brass-founders' ague " ? 
 —No. 
 
 2359. What would you prefer tO' call it? — I should 
 say intoxication from zinc or the fumes of zinc. 
 
 2360. Would poisoning from the fumes of zinc be a 
 better term than intoxication? — ^Poisoning. I will 
 ]jut it in this way : a man or a boy who has not worked 
 previously in a brass-founding establishment goes into 
 a badly-ventilated brass-casting shop, where there is a 
 good deal of smother given off, and in consequence of 
 that to some extent some of the fumes get into the 
 stomach, or into the blood, and set up irritation of the 
 stomach, and create nausea. I do not myself believe 
 in the symptoms of the so-called ague, which I went 
 into very thoroughly in an article many years ago. I 
 do not believe that any of the symptoms justify the use 
 of the term ague. The men simply get into an ex- 
 hausted condition from not being accustomed to the 
 fumes of zinc, but after a time they get more accus- 
 tomed to it, and no longer feel the effects. I find, from 
 a lot of investigations I made, that if a man was away 
 from work for a month, say, on the first day he re- 
 turned he would probably have an attack of what they 
 are in the habit of calling brass^foanders' ague, but 
 that in two or three days' time he would cease to be 
 liable to an ooourrence of the kind. I found that if a 
 rr.an was introduced straight ofi into a brass foundry, 
 after a day or two, or perhaps the first day, he would 
 have an attack of biass-founders' ague ; but he would 
 become inured to it. 
 
 2361. What are the symptoms that he would have ? — 
 He would feel very ill, and very sick, but he would 
 not have the sweating stage or the hot stage ; he 
 would simply feel the deadly discomfort a man feels 
 before he is going to be sick. May I read you a de- 
 scription from an article which I wrote in the Dan- 
 gerous Trades book ? I said, " That Thackrah was in 
 error in speaking of brass ague as an intermittent 
 affection, occurring once a month or once a year, is 
 clearly proved by the following positive observation, 
 which is supported by all brassworkers. Ague never 
 occurs among the regular workers, but always affects 
 those who are new to the work, or who resume work 
 after an absence of even a month or a fortnight. If 
 a man resumes work — that is, melting or casting- 
 after even so brief an interval, he is sure to have an 
 attack of ague ; but he will have only one attack, and 
 remain free until after his next holiday. There is, 
 most certainly, no kind of regular intermission, and, 
 according to brassworkers themselves, they only suffer 
 till they are inured to the poison. 'The following are 
 the symptoms of this so-called ague : — After working 
 
 a few hours a man becomes languid, depressed, and 
 feels very cold. He is very pale and almost 
 in a state of collapse ; his face is covered with 
 a cold perspiration ; he shivers, his teeth chatter, anif 
 he is restless and anxious. His head aches ; there is 
 much nausea, and complaint of muscular pains. As 
 a rule, he goes or is led home, where he drinks freely 
 of milk, and goes to bed. The symptoms continue 
 until he has vomited, either as the result of taking 
 an emetic or independently of it. Vomiting is usually 
 followed by sleep, or recovery with more or less of 
 debility and lassitude on waking. Here is another 
 passage in which I said : " Doctors Greenbow and. 
 Hagben (who are both unfortunately dead), speak of a 
 more or less marked hot st&,ge succeeding the cold, while, 
 following the hot stage, they mention profuse sweatings 
 The hot stage may be absent, but the sweating, aceord- 
 ing to these writers, invariably occurs. Our own obser- 
 vations, based on enquiry amongst those who have 
 suffered from this ague, have never elicited a state- 
 ment of these hot and sweating stages. Even direct 
 questions as to their occurrence have always been 
 met with positive negation, though some have spokei* 
 of free perspiration in the stage of collapse. How to- 
 reconcile these statements we do not know." Of 
 course, one knows by experience that if one is very- 
 sick sweating is not uncommon. 
 
 2362. (Dr. Legge.) You say in what you have just 
 read that the face is covered with a cold perspiration,, 
 do you not ? — Yes, I think a man in a state of nausea 
 may sweat a good deal. 
 
 2363. (Professor Allbutt.) And teeth chattering and 
 shivering, and so on, is a colourable imitation of 
 rigors, is it not? — Quite so. I am only quoting what 
 has been told me. I have not observed these symp- 
 toms myself. 
 
 2364. (Chairman.) Do you see any green line on the- 
 gums ? — On the teeth. 
 
 2365. Will you tell us what you know about th& 
 green line as an indication of brass poisoning? — 1* 
 think it is an indication of copper. 
 
 2356. Have you seen the line on many occasions ? — 
 Tes. 
 
 2367. In what branches have you seen that ? — Pretty- 
 well all. 
 
 2368. Have you seen it amongst brassworkers? — 
 Yes ; I am speaking, of course of brassworkers. 
 
 2369. Have you seen it amongst brassfounders, andt 
 also amongst the men who are engaged in filing and: 
 polishing brass ? — Tes. 
 
 2370. Is not that green line indicative of a poison- 
 ins of some kind ?— You see, it can be wiped off pretty 
 well, though not altogether, because you get it in the 
 hair. 
 
 2371. Taking the teeth first, if a person said I be- 
 lieve these men are poisoned, because they have » 
 green line on the tartar of the teeth, what would be- 
 the answer to that? — If they had no tartar, I do not. 
 think they would have a green line. 
 
 2372. Then you do not think the green line is indi- 
 cative of poison in the system? — ^Not in the system. 
 I think it is an affection of the tartar from the more- 
 or less volatile copper. 
 
 2373. Except in the case of brassfounders, you do 
 not think, I understand, there is a specific trade 
 disease ? — I do not ; I am very emphatic about that. 
 
 2374. The National Society of Amalgamated Brass 
 ' Workers are going to give evidence before us to the 
 
 effect that the brass-casters are the most unhealthy 
 members of the society. I gather that you would say 
 that brass-casting, while making a man out of health 
 for a day or so, would not make him the most un- 
 healthy member of a society?— I think brass-casting;, 
 carried out under ideal conditions need not be a source 
 of danger. 
 
 2375. But, carried out under bad conditions, what 
 do you say? — It would be so. 
 
 2376. Would you agree that it is likely that the 
 brass-casteiB who have worked under bad conditions 
 m early life are many of them dead, or suffering from 
 premature old age ?— Yes ; I should say that brass- 
 casters are generally unhealthy. 
 
 2377. Then is it your opinion that in a badly venti- 
 lated workshop brass-casting may do more than merely 
 incapacitate a man for a day or two ?— Yes ; I should 
 like to emphasise my answer. I say in my article, to 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 71 
 
 ■which I have already referred : " If more proof were 
 wanting of the unhealthiness of brass-caisters it would 
 l>e afforded by the fact that a few years ago, though 
 there were 1,200 casters in Birmingham, there were not 
 more than ten over sixty years of age, and in connec- 
 tion with a superannjjation fund of the Amalgamated 
 Brass Workers' Assoiciation from which casters could, 
 •at the age of fifty -five, derive benefit, it is an appalling 
 fact that there were only three men — two in Birming- 
 'Siam and one in Sheffield — enjoying this benefit." I 
 think the reason is that owing to the exceedingly bad 
 conditions which existed before the former Depart- 
 -mental Inquiry, and which I think still exist, brass 
 shops were so exceptionally badly ventilated — there 
 was no proper outlet to many of them, they being in 
 •cellars and underground places — that there was extreme 
 liability to the continued prevalence of thick vapour 
 -and dust, iri consequence of which tremendous irrita- 
 tion of the bronchial tubes resulted ; and partly in 
 •consequence of the induced thirst many people became 
 .alcoholic, and rendered themselves liaWe toi fibroid 
 ;phthisis. 
 
 2378. Then, according to you, in the brass founding 
 trade there are two effects of the poison ; first there is 
 the sickness and endeavour of the system to reject 
 the poison, accompanied by the symptoms you have 
 mentioned, and also, if the trade is persisited in, under 
 
 jery bad conditions, graver and different symptoms will 
 supervene ? — That is so. 
 
 2379. AViU you tell us what those graver symptoms 
 •are? — ^Symptoms such as are associated with affection 
 of the bronchial tubes, and consequent development of 
 •fibroid phthisis from the dust, caused by the bad ven- 
 tilation and consequent inability of the fumes of the 
 zinc to escape. 
 
 2380. But will the vapooir of zinc produce phthisis ? — 
 No ; bronchitis. The irritation of the bronchial tubes 
 -produces bronchitis. That bronchitis might become 
 chronic, and may become associated with phthisis, 
 and often is. There are two ways in which fibroid 
 ■phthisis may develop in this connection, one is that 
 the depression of general health renders the system 
 moro liable to the inroads of the bacillus, and the 
 •second is — and I am a confirmed believer in i^t — in the 
 extension of the inflammatory process from the mucous 
 membrane to the walls of the bronchial tubes and the 
 fibroid charge extending into the pulm^onary tissue. 
 
 2381. (Professor Allbutt.) What is your idea as to the 
 ■prevalence of such fibrosis among hands engaged in a 
 brass foundry? — I have not any views about it. 
 
 2382. Going into the shops, would you not observe 
 any great prevalence? — No. 
 
 2385. Or from what you know of out-patients at 
 •an hospital.? — I was for over thirteen years in charge 
 ■of an outpatients' department, and in going throoigh 
 ■the shops I did not notice fibroid phthisis, but I 
 noticed -a large number of bronchitic people, and the 
 statistics of the Friendly Society certainly bear that 
 out. 
 
 2384. (Chairman.) But it is largely diminishing now, 
 I understand ? — I cannot say ; I do not know. 
 
 2385. (Professor Allbutt.) The last ■witness spoke of 
 ■ague as a thing arising, speaking generally, from 
 fumes. Would you agree with that ?— Yes. 
 
 2386. Then he specified entirely another disease, 
 ■which he called brass workers' poisoning, or copper 
 poisoning, and which was mairked by a series of 
 symptoms, such as anemia, extreme debility, nervous- 
 ness, neuralgic pains, and a green line on the teeth 
 for which a cure could be brought about in a short 
 time. Do you agree with that ? — That is worth con- 
 ■sidering. 
 
 2387. Do you associate what we have called for the 
 •sake of a word, ague, with the other symptoms, namely, 
 •anaemia, and so on ? — No, because I believe the ague is 
 ■a purely _ intermittent aiectiom, and not constant at 
 •all, and it could not possibly be responsible for the 
 dreadful catalogue you mention. 
 
 2388. Do you agree with Dr. Murray when ho said 
 he thought the ague was an independent malady, and 
 so imoonnected with any other series of symptoms? 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 2389. Is there a series of symptoms known as brass 
 workers' poisoning which an expert could recognise as 
 being characteristic ? — I cannot conceive it possible that 
 Dr. Murray could reconcile a statement of that kind 
 
 with a further statement that they would get -well in i/,. ^ ^_ 
 a week or three weeks. simon, ' m.d. 
 
 2390. Might I put it in another way? We can put 
 
 the ague on one side as a temporary thing, cannot -^ ^°''- 1906- 
 we? — That is my view. 
 
 2391. And we can put the fibroid phthisis as being 
 a specific thing ?— Quite. I am quite aware that an 
 occasional case of serious nervous disease, neuritis, or 
 other affection of the nerves, has been alleged to be 
 due to brass poisoning, but I see a great number of 
 cases of neuritis, and I certainly do not see an undue 
 proportion of brass workers who are suffering from 
 this condition. I have a case in hospital at the pre- 
 sent moment of a man who is suffering from neuritis. 
 The condition of the nerve trunks affects the arms and 
 legs. He has been a brass caster for years, but he has 
 been a tremendous drinker, and I have very little doubt 
 that both the drink and the brass casting have pTO- 
 disposed him to the occurrence of phthisis, but that 
 the drink alone is responsible for the neuritis. 
 
 2392. May I say you. are of opinion that copper is 
 not a danger ? — I do not think so. 
 
 2393. We may exclude cop.per then? — ^That is my 
 vieiv. I have here a paper which I read before the 
 Sanitary Institute on poisons in zinc, copper, brass, 
 and tin, which I will put in if you would like it. 
 
 2394. I asked the previous ■witness whether any Hood 
 examinations had been made in these casesi. You would 
 scarcely know when to make them, would you ?— No. 
 
 2395. Your evidence come® to this, does it not, that 
 whereas the previous witness gave three classes 
 (1) being the ague, (2) being the alleged 
 series of symptoms due to copper, and (3) being 
 fibroid phthisis, in your opinion there are but two, 
 namely, the ague, which is a zinc poisoning, and the 
 fibroid phthisis, which falls into the more general 
 class of dust diseases, and is not in this sense specific? 
 — That is my view. To put it definitely, if I do not 
 see the green line upon the teeth, I know of no group 
 of symptoms which would lead me to think I was deal- 
 ing with a brass worker. 
 
 2396. (Chairman.) Phthisis is rather prevalent in 
 Birmingham, is not it ? The return shows rather for- 
 midable figures? — I am afraid I do not know it, but I 
 ought to know what it is. 
 
 2397. Assuming for the moment that the figures show 
 that phthisis is rather prevalent in Birmingham, would 
 you put any share of that undue prevalence, assuming 
 it to exist, down either to brass working or brass cast- 
 ing? — I can only say there are 600,000 inhabitants in 
 Birmingham, and only 1,200 of them are casters. 
 
 2398. Then you raink, do ^ou. the number of castors 
 in Birmingham is too small, on any hypothesis, to affect 
 the result? — I think so, with a population of over 
 half a million. The figure was 1,200 in 1888 ; there 
 may be more now. 
 
 2399. (Dr. Legge.) Have you ever acted as pa.tholo- 
 gist at an infirmary? — Yes, for a short period. 
 
 2400. Have you seen many post-mortems on brass 
 worker.? ? — Yes. 
 
 2401. If you had two pairs of lungs, one of a Shef- 
 field grinder, with the recognised form of fibrosis dis- 
 tributed in clumps about the surface, and also had the 
 lungs of a brass polisher who had spent all his life 
 in the polishing of brass, would you notice any dif- 
 ference between them ? — I should not. 
 
 2402. Do you recognise fibrotic nodules distributed 
 about the lungs as being characteristic of brasa 
 polishers who die in the infirmary here ; do you get 
 the characteristic of what is called stone mason's lung 1 
 —No. 
 
 2403. You said, I understand, that phthisis 
 was secondary to bronchial disease?! — Phthisis is 
 much less common than bronchial disease. I con- 
 sider a large number of cases of phthisis are due to 
 the deterioration of health, when a person affords a 
 suitable subject for attack. 
 
 2404. (Professor Allbutt.) There are two causes — 
 the deterioration of health and the dust, are there not 1 
 — Certainly. 
 
 2405. (Dr. Legge.) In Sheffield we were told that 
 there was such a thing as grinders' lung. Is there 
 such a thing as brass workers' lung? — There may be, 
 but I do not know it. 
 
 2406. You said that beyond the green line on the 
 
72 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. B. M. 
 Simon, M.n 
 
 29 Nov. 190G. 
 
 Mr. Evered. 
 
 teeth you recognise nothing that would point to 
 specific illness in a brass worker of any kind ?— No. 
 
 2407. Do you recognise pallor in a brass founder— 
 a greenish-yellow pallor ?— No. 
 
 2408. If one walked into the out-patients' room, 
 would you be able to tell if he was a brass caster ?— 
 No, I should say not ; I should not have a ghost of a 
 notion. May I say that I believe, in an ideal cast- 
 ing shop, there would be either no disease or very 
 little disease. 
 
 2409. (Professor Allhutt.) By means of rules, how 
 near the ideal could we get ? Do you think we could 
 practically eliminate the whole thing ?— I think so. 
 
 2410. (Chairman.) You have been in casting shops 
 yourself, and have seen them again and again, have 
 you not ? — Hundreds of them. 
 
 2411. Speaking generally, are you of opinion that, 
 well regulated and enforced, special rules would tend 
 to render the diseases non-existent ? — Yes, I think so ; 
 and I think, further, if casting shops were licensed 
 annually, the disease would almost disappear. 
 
 2412. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you think that in these 
 
 rules there should be included any preventive drint^ 
 such as phosphoric acid ? — I do not know why. 
 
 2413. In your opinion, it is not important ?—Thfr 
 men drink milk sometimes, but more often they drink 
 something else. I do not know whether the Committee- 
 have been to any of the Birmingham casting shops, but 
 they are not so bad as some of those in Glasgow and 
 Rotherham. I have seen some in Glasgow, and they 
 are simply places in the cellars of six-storey houses, 
 with no possibility whatever of the fumes escaping. 
 
 2414. Those were the places I was thinking of whe* 
 I asked if you thought they ought to be licensed.-;- 
 There I do not consider it is a healthy trade. 
 
 2415. Because of the conditions under which it is- 
 carried on? — ^Yes. 
 
 2416. But I suppose you would say that almost any 
 trade, if it is carried on under exceedingly bad condi- 
 tions, could be rendered unhealthy?— I am not pre- 
 pared to go as far as to say that. You Could eliminate- 
 all tendency to bronchitis by inhalation if you adopted 
 the most perfect conditions ; then I think it could be 
 reduced to an innocuous minimum. 
 
 2417. You think then that the disease could prac- 
 tically be reduced to a minimum? — Yes, I do. 
 
 The Committee adjourned, and proceeded to inspect the works of Messrs. Evered and Co., Limited at 
 Smethwick, where the following evidence was taken. 
 
 Mr. EvEEED, examined. 
 
 2418. (Chairman.) There is an impression in some 
 quarters, and in other quarters a broad assertion, 
 that the brass trade is dangerous, and the particulars 
 wherein it is regarded as dangerous are really two- 
 fold. In the first place, there is the brass casting, 
 and then there is the brass working, in which the men 
 are engaged in filing or polishing the brass, and in 
 which brass dust is produced somehow or other? — 
 What you mean I take it, is, not filing, but when the 
 rough brass is taken off by emery wheels, and the 
 grinding and polishing. 
 
 2419. There is that impression abroad, and the 
 duty of the Committee isi toi enquire what diseases 
 which especially result from industrial occupations 
 are proper subjects for workmen's compensation. Can 
 you give us any information upon the point ? — In this 
 particular case, you refer to brass dust, I presume ? 
 
 2420. Yes, and to such fumes as are produced from 
 casting, whatever these may be. The evidence is not 
 enormously strong upon this specific trade disease, 
 but unquestionably there is a certain impression 
 amongst medical men that it is unhealthy in a great 
 many workshops. I do not say in all shops, but par- 
 ticularly in those shops which are not well ventilated. 
 Can you give the Committee any information in that 
 direction? — ^You are now speaking principally with 
 regard to casting, I presume? 
 
 2421. Yes. According to the evidence, the casters 
 are the worse off, and the men engaged in casting come 
 upon the funds of their unions more heavily than the 
 men employed in other branches of the trade. They 
 cannot give any reason for it, but they say they 
 become ill, and they die. Have you any views upon 
 the subject, and, if so, what are they? One way, of 
 course, of meeting a case of the kind would be to 
 enforce rules vrith regard to the removal of fumes and 
 dust from brass faotoriesi ; and another way would be 
 considering the question, with a view of classifying it 
 as a specific trade disease which should b© the subject 
 of workmen's compensation under the new Workmen's 
 Compensation Bill, which is not yet an Act of Parlia^ 
 ment ?— What would you call a .specific trade disease in 
 this case ? 
 
 2422. Brass or copper or zinc poisoning? — In its 
 melted condition, or how ? 
 
 2423. If it poisoned people somehow. The medical 
 men would assist us as to the form it should take if it 
 was a poison, and we should have to put it down 
 under some name or other, which is a matter which 
 would have to be considered. The question now is : 
 Are those two things which I have mentioned dan- 
 gerous ? What is your view with regard to it ? — I have 
 had about 25 years' experience, and since I have read 
 the proceedings in Parliament, and received the letter 
 from the Home Office, I have really seriously tried to 
 think whether I could remember any case of illness 
 or disease which I could say occurred to an employee 
 
 by reason of the conditions of his employment in our 
 particular trade. We have between 1,000 and l,400i 
 people employed, a certain proportion of whom wouli 
 be casters, and a very fair proportion of whom would 
 be polishers, the only two branches of the trade as to- 
 which I think it can be suggested there is any risk to. 
 health. I take it there is no such suggestion with 
 regard to any of the other processes dealing with, 
 brass, because if there is, I can show you the various 
 conditions under which the work is done, and you can. 
 see for yourselves what they are. I may tell you that 
 we have brass casters who have been with us longer 
 than I have been connected with the firm, steady men, 
 for whom I have a good deal of respect, ajad men who, I 
 think, have hardly lost a day's work during the whole 
 time. 
 
 2424. But the point is not quite that?— But I am. 
 taking men with long service in the particular trade, 
 which I think is quite fair. 
 
 2425. If you wiU forgive me, the point is not that 
 every man employed in the trade might be infectedi 
 with the disease, but that probably only a limited 
 isumber are susceptible, so that it is not of much, 
 importance to show that one particular man who haft, 
 been engaged largely in the most dangerous part ot 
 the trade yet enjoys good health. That does not quite 
 meet the point.— May I say that I do not quite agree- 
 with you, because my evidence, if it is worth anything 
 at all, must be directed and must deal with those- 
 people who have been employed to' my certain know- 
 ledge a long time in the particular trade, rather tha» 
 to persons who have been only engaged in it a short 
 time. I must look to people whom I have had for s 
 long time in my employ, otherwise I can only give^ 
 you hearsay evidence. I look at the old people as the- 
 best evidence on the point of disease, or no disease, 
 in the brass trade. Some of our brass casters are mem 
 who have been with us perhaps only three or four 
 years, but have come from somewhere else, where- 
 thsy have been engaged in the same occupatioai. 
 I cannot teU you how long they have been brasr 
 casters, except from what I know of my own know- 
 ledge. I should not like it said for a moment that a 
 brass caster is a man who is unsteady in his habits, or 
 addicted to drink or anything of that sort, but I 
 do find that you are more easily able to trace " illness 
 or disease" to " St." Monday than to anything arising- 
 from the men's employment. I daresay you know what 
 I mean by "St." Monday. I am on the best of 
 terms with the people in my employment ; but it is 
 very difficult to tell what may be the habits of the 
 people outside the works, and consequently whether 
 any illnesses from which they suffer are attributable 
 to anything arising during the cours-e of their em- 
 ploment or outside. 
 
 2426. Granted that only a certain number of meir 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDD-STEIAL DISEASES. 
 
 73 
 
 get the disease, when their cases were examined, do 
 you think that their illness might be generally found 
 to be due to other causes?— It might be attributable 
 to other causes. 
 
 2427. Would you say that in many cases it might 
 be attributed to inlfemperance ? — No, I should not like 
 to go as far as that. For instance, men stand out 
 in all sorts of weather watching football matches and 
 so on, and oatch cold, with subsequent affection of the 
 lungs, which might be put down to their being em- 
 ploed in the atmosphere of a casting shop. 
 
 2428. What would you say with regard to the 
 ventilation of these shops, not your own necessarily, 
 but the shops in Birmingham generally ? I have been 
 myself in a good many of them, and I think that the 
 conditions in many of them leave a good deal to be 
 desired in the way of removing dust ? — Are you asking 
 aie about polishing shops, because I think we ought 
 to keep polishing shops and casting shops distinct? 
 There is practically no dust in a casting shop. 
 
 2429. There are fumes there, and I suppose 
 that if a casting shop were not ventilated at all, you 
 would not be surprised to find that the men employed 
 in it were in an unhealthy condition?'— They could 
 not live it they had not any ventilation, no matter 
 whether it was a casting shop in the brass trade or a 
 shop in any other trade. 
 
 2430. I think there is a good deal yet to be done 
 in the way of ventilation, both in casting shops and 
 in shops generally, but how far can you speak upon 
 the subject?— With regard to casting shops I think 
 every casting shop would be practically ventilated— 
 not theoretically ventilated, but that there should be 
 louvres or something of t'nat sort in every casting 
 shop open to the air in the roof. 
 
 2431. Would you be prepared to say that it is 
 possible^ to ventilate a casting shop efficiently with- 
 out giving the men cold, and introducing an undue 
 amount of cold air, unless you had some means of 
 artificial ventilation in the shape of forced draught 1 — 
 I do not think you would be able to get men to work 
 under such conditions, and I do not think they could. 
 
 2432. But men can work with artificial ventilation, 
 if it is properly carried out, can they not? — Then 
 the place must be properly heated. It certainly would 
 not do in the case of a man standing over the furnace, 
 lifting a crucible out, to submit him to a blast of cold 
 air suddenly. 
 
 2433. _Do you think that there is no mode in which 
 ventilation cotdd be applied in the shape of fans with- 
 out subjecting the men to too much cold? — I do not 
 think an exhaust fan, for instance, is at all necessary, 
 or the best way of ventilating a casting shop. 
 
 2434. What do you think is the best way?— I think 
 it would be a bad thing to have a casting shop which 
 has not a louvre in the roof, or which has not some 
 other means of allowing the fumes to escape as they 
 do' now from the top. A two storey casting shop is a 
 
 'very successful and healthly form of shop, but any 
 casting shop is bad where there is no direct access to 
 the open air somewhere in the roof. 
 
 2435. But you must have an inlet for air ; must 
 you not, otherwise the fumes will not escape, and the 
 air in which the fumes are suspended cannot be re- 
 placed by fresh air? — Of course, there is an inlet for 
 air, there is a door which is left open, and there are 
 windows through which air comes, because they are 
 nearly always broken. 
 
 2436. In such a case, would not an exhaust fan very 
 much improve things? — No, I do not think bc. 
 
 2437. But would there not be more air entering and 
 more air removed ? — ^You might get more draught. 
 
 2438. Supposing you had a Tobin ventilator, would 
 not that be an improvement? — Tobin's ventilators 
 would be no good at all. We are better than that 
 already. Of course, I am speaking of casting shoxjs 
 which are built on anything like modern lines. There 
 are some shops which are unfit for use. 
 
 2439. Do not you think that those old shops could 
 be rendered fit by a properly arranged system of ven- 
 tilation? — No, I do not think they could ; I think the 
 proper way to deal with them would be to condemn 
 them altogether. 
 
 2440. Are there a large number of them in Bir- 
 419 
 
 niingham ?— No ; I should say there are very few of ji/, Evcred 
 
 them compared to what there used to be. Of course, " 
 
 I can only speak from my own experience, because you ^^' Nov. 1906. 
 
 can imagine that the last thing you would be able to 
 
 do would be to have access to your opponents' 
 
 foundries ; but I should say that to-day the casting 
 
 shop is built on the best possible lines, and I think 
 
 I can show you that we build our shops on as good 
 
 lines as you can have for getting rid of the fumes, 
 
 which are only occasioned by the act of pouring the 
 
 metal into the mould, which occurs at the most, six 
 
 or eight times a day, and only lasts for a period of 
 
 three to five minutes. It is not a continuous pouring, 
 
 and_ a man generally puts a scarf round his mouth 
 
 during the process, because he has to lean over the 
 
 crucible when "pouring." No fan can take off the 
 
 fumes to which he is subjected, because the man must 
 
 of necessity have his head somewhere near the mouth 
 
 of the crucible, and from the mouth of the crucible the 
 
 fumes come. 
 
 2441. Still, from the mouth of the crucible a draught 
 might drive the fumes away, I suppose ? — The man 
 has the pasting mould put on edge in this fashion 
 (illustrating) ; he has to set his knee against the 
 mould ; the crucible is placed in this position, and he 
 has to pour the metal in. Therefore, of necessity, he 
 has to look to see when the mould is full, and to have 
 his head over it. I believe, in fact, if you had a gale 
 of wind passing through a shop you could not take 
 every fume away from the man's mouth. No amount 
 of rapid current of air would do anything ; in fact, 
 the first thing it would do would be to so chill the 
 brass that it would not pour. 
 
 2442. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you say that the men 
 generally wear a handkerchief over their mouths ? — 
 Yes, when pouring. 
 
 2443. Does not that interfere with them in their 
 work ? — ^No. 
 
 2444. (Chairman.) Is that handkerchief for the pur- 
 pose of avoiding the effect of the fumes ? — Certainly. 
 It is simply put there for two or three minutes while 
 they are filling the moulds from the crucible, i.e., 
 " pouring." 
 
 2445. (Professor Allbutt.) Can you give any descrip- 
 tion with regard to the effect which the men say the 
 fumes have on them ? — You can ask the men yourself, 
 if you please. They say, as a rule, the fumes have no 
 effect on them. 
 
 2446. Yet they wear a handkerchief? — Yes, to pre- 
 vent any effect. 
 
 2447. The Committee are a little anxious to know 
 what the special form of the disease from which they 
 suffer is, and what is the cause of it? — I cannot find 
 out. I frequently stand in a casting shop while the 
 men are pouring out the metal, and I do not even 
 take, the trouble to put a handkerchief over my 
 mouth. 
 
 2448. You do not know, then, exactly what the men 
 are afraid of when they put the handkerchief over their 
 mouths? Is it the so-called ague?^ — No ; I should say 
 it is done in order to prevent the disagreeable feeling 
 of semi-suffocation. I may say that I generally ex- 
 pectorate when I come outside after I have been lookine 
 at pouring, and have not put a handkerchief over my 
 mouth. 
 
 2449. (Chairman.) Do you get a taste of zinc in your 
 mouth ? — I am not sufiiciently a chemist to know what 
 the taste is. 
 
 2450. But I suppose you do get a m.etallic taste in 
 your mouth? — Well, I do not say it is a pleasant 
 taste, and if I were in a casting shop for an hour or 
 more, and saw two or three pourings, I should probably 
 put a handkerchief over my mouth. I believe there 
 was an order at one time that the men engaged in the 
 works should wear respirators, but they would not use 
 them, preferring the handkerchief. 
 
 2451. Have you ever heard of an apparatus which 
 has been put on the market by the firm of Rainsford 
 and Lynes? — Yes. Eainsford and Lynes have been 
 round the trade trying to get the apparatus used, be- 
 cause I suppose they were the patentees ; but we did not 
 find that the men appreciated the apparatus. 
 
 2452. But the question is, did it remove the fumes ? 
 —No, as far as I could see, it did not. The difficulty 
 with regard to the use of it is that a man has to 
 move the crucible about repeatedly, and he cannct 
 
 K 
 
7i 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. Ercred. see what he is doing if he is using the apparatus, 
 " ' and, to my mind, it puts a premium upon possibl© 
 
 29 Nov. 1906. accident. Molten brass is not pleasant stuff to, have 
 
 spilt on one, and a man cannot readily move about a 
 
 crucible if he has a cover over the top of it with a 
 flexible tube attached so that he cannot see what 
 he is doing. Therefore, I think the use of such a 
 thing might lead to certain accident, sooner or 
 later, which would be far worse than the conditions 
 which at present prevail. I think, if you want to get 
 at what is really the most dangerous, or was, perhaps, 
 the most dangerous, part of the brass trade, it was 
 the polishing as it used to be conducted, without any 
 means of exhaust. I consider that was the most dan- 
 gerous occupation, iu consequence of the fluff which 
 came from the calico mop which was used, in the 
 polishing. 
 
 2453. Do you think that there is some diminution 
 in the danger attending the trade ; and do you think 
 that it is to be accounted for by the improvement in 
 the conditions with regard to the use of exhaust 
 fans ?-^Yes. I consider that every manufacturer in 
 the polishing branch of the brass trade who is able to 
 get over the difficulty by introducing exhaust fans 
 should be rewarded. 
 
 2454. And, having done that, and comparing the 
 condition at present with the condition in the old&n 
 days, do you think that what has been done has been 
 to the benefit and has improved the health of the 
 workmen ? — Yes ; I am a practical sort of person, and 
 I look at the matter in this way — that there is a far 
 less amount of dust lying about with the exhaust fans 
 than there used to be before we used them. 
 
 2455. As a fact, is one able to say that the healtli 
 of the men has really been improved. Is there any 
 evidence as to that? — No. I can say from the very 
 nature, of the oocupation, i.e., polishing, I do^ not 
 think you" get the very best work people. Although 
 there are plenty of decent and honourable polishers, 
 it is not one of the nicest occupations, and therefore 
 you do not get the highest class of men, women, or 
 boys in it, and some of them are none too steady. The 
 women — and there are a great many women employed 
 in brass polishing — are not of a very high standard. 
 Although, of course, I know nothing, of their habits 
 outsida our works, I should think the ailments to 
 which they are subject are acquired outside the works 
 rather than inside. Of course, it is difficult to dis- 
 tinguish where illnesses are got from, but I should 
 say that they are got' more from outside than inside. 
 
 2456. (Professor Allbuit.) Are there any specific 
 ailments to which the polishers are subject, which 
 you can describe ? — I have had women polishers 
 engaged in our works for twenty years. They were so 
 healthy that they used to be remarkably productive, 
 and the only times they were away was when they had 
 children bom. It was about oisual for these women 
 to have a child every year, and if they had been un- 
 Ihealtlhy I should think they could not have been in 
 such a prolific condition. 
 
 2457. (Chairman.) At all events may w© take, it , as 
 an outcome of the whole mat,ter that you are in favour 
 of ventilation with regard to the polishing shojjs, an4 
 with regard to casting you do not see , any means of 
 better ventilation ; that yon consider it a matter of 
 the greatest difliculty, but that there are casting shops 
 which, in your opinion, ought certainly to be abolished 
 if they cannot be ventilated ? — That is more a matter 
 for the factory inspector. I have heard of casting shops 
 which I think ooight to be condemned, but that is only 
 
 hearsay, and fOB will get far better and more reliable 
 evidence about them from the factory inspector., 
 
 2458. (Dr. Legge.) Amooig the thousand employees 
 in this trade have you never had reason to suspect 
 illness due to their work ?— That is a big order to answer 
 straight away, but if you will take it generally I can 
 honestly say that I cajinot call to mind a single case. 
 
 2459. (Chairman.) That is since the polishing shops 
 have been thoroughly ventilated?—! may say at any 
 time I cannot call to mind a certain case of illness 
 arising out of the employment since I have been con- 
 nected with this business, and that is since 1876. 
 
 2460. Then the reputation the brass trade has of 
 being an unhealthy trade you think is not founded on 
 fact? — The brass trade, as I know it, is not an un- 
 healthy trade. Of course, we have people vrith us 
 who have been thought to b© unhealthy after very 
 many years, but they principally suffer from anno 
 domini when they lea.ve. 
 
 2461. (Professor AUbutt.) Do you say that owing to 
 the improvement with regard to better ventilation, 
 better general conditions, and so on, that neither now 
 nor at any time have you known of any specific disease 
 due to brass working? — In my own personal know- 
 ledge I cannot say that I have. 
 
 2462. (Chairman.) There is a sickness, is there not, 
 which new comers to the trade are liable to, and which 
 they call ague ? — I have never known in my personal 
 recollection of a man having to leave his work during 
 the day from ague. 
 
 2463. Have you never known of a case where a mail 
 has come for the first time in his life to the work being 
 taken with sickness t — I should never employ a strange 
 man. 
 
 2464. But men must first begin their employment at 
 some time 7 — We never employ men strange to the trade. 
 In fact, they all begin as lads. 
 
 2465. It is alleged that when men resume work after 
 an interval, and when they begin work for the first 
 time in a casting] shop, they get an illness which pro- 
 duces vomiting and pallor, that they have to go- home 
 and sleep it off, but that it rarely lasts beyond 
 a certain number of hours? — I do not know of those 
 oases. I know that the same symptoms might be pro- 
 duced from " other " causes, especially if a man has been 
 away for a week. I could quite understand a man 
 might be sick when he came back then. 
 
 2466. But still you say they do not vomit, do you? 
 Absolute vomiting has been alleged by other witnesses. 
 — I doi not know of it. 
 
 2467. (Professor Allbutt.) A far more important 
 allegation is that there is chronic phthisis from 
 the inhalation of the copper constituent of the brass. 
 For instance, in casting molten metal it is said that 
 there are fairly characteristic symptoms), curable but 
 lasting over some weeks, which are marked by extreme 
 debility and emaciation, and that ansemia is one of 
 the permanent features ? — I have no entrfee, of course, 
 to all the shops in the trade, and I can only speak for 
 my own, and having mixed a great deal with- my men 
 generally, I can speak from my own personal know- 
 ledge with regard to them. I cannot speak with regard 
 to the conditions under which they live, except in my 
 own factory, and I do not know of such cases. 
 
 2468. Supposing that all the shops in the trade were 
 worked under such conditions as yours, do you think 
 that you would find this disease? — ^You may look at 
 the people themselves at work, and then you can judge 
 for yourselves. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 75 
 
 NIXTH DAY. 
 
 Friday, ^Oth November 1906. 
 
 MEMBEES PEUSENT. 
 
 Me. Heney CaSfYNGHAME, C.B. {Chairman). 
 
 Peofessoe Cliffoed Allbutt, F.K.S. 
 Me. T. M. Lbgge, M.D. 
 
 Me. T. E. Bettany {Acting Secretary). 
 
 Me. W. J. Davis, called in and examined. 
 
 2469. {Chairman.) You are Secretary of the National 
 Society of Amalgamated Brass "Workers and Metal 
 Mechanics, are you not ?— Yes, the General Secretary. 
 
 2470. Have you acted in that capacity for several 
 years ?— From 1872 with an interregnum, when I held a 
 factory inspectorship from 1883 to 1889. 
 
 2471. How many members does that society consist 
 of?— 7,000. 
 
 2472. What branches of trade are represented by your 
 society '\ — Chandeliers, general gas fittings, and electric 
 lighting fittings, which is all one department. The next 
 branch we put in order is the plumbers' brass foundry 
 and steam fittings branch ; the third branch is the cabinet 
 brass foundry, which deals with articles with no insides. 
 For instance, in steam and gas fittings there is an inside, - 
 gas or water tight, but the cabinet branch is more 
 external and ornamental, such as door knobs, handles, 
 hinges, cabin hooks, and a variety of things that come 
 under the category. 
 
 2473. Is there not also a brass finishing branch ? — 
 Yes, it is a general term, and finishing should be in- 
 cluded in that class. Then branch 4 comprises bedstead 
 mounts. These brass' bedsteads are all hollow. "VVe do 
 the mounts and tie bedstead trade do the iron work — 
 the cupola work. We stamp and finish them. 
 
 2474. Where do the button makers and stampers come 
 in ? — That branch would be included in the bedstead 
 mounts. It should be bedstead mounts, ornamental 
 stamping, including buttons, and everything that comes 
 into metallic oi'namental work. 
 
 2475. Where would curtaiii poles come in? — Under 
 the ordinary cabinet brass foundry, nails, and all sorts 
 of fittings. Then the next division would be copper 
 workers, not furnace copper work, but kettles, pane, 
 shovels, and scoops, and domestic copper work of all 
 sorts. Then there are the brass and copper tube and 
 wire trades. There is the solid-drawn tube, which is one 
 distinct department, and then there are the cased tubes 
 and braisad tubes. 
 
 2476. The solid tubes are generally copper, I suppose ! 
 — The solid tubes are generally cast, and drawn from the 
 cast^ copper and brass as well. Boiler tubes are solid, 
 and this branch includes the pouring and mixing of 
 metals. 
 
 2477. Are there a certain number of men engaged in 
 these foundries who are called brass founders ? — All of 
 them are casters except the stampers. 
 
 2478. There are different men engaged in founding, 
 of course ?^I think you had better take the classifica- 
 tion of the work. There is first the pattern-maker. I 
 will give the processes : pattern-making, chasing, casting, 
 finishing, burnishing, polishing and putting together. 
 
 2479. So that there are six processes, are there, in the 
 trade? — Yes. Of course, they could be still further 
 sub-divided, but that is the general way of taking it. 
 
 2480. May I take it that you have come to tell us that 
 there is a certain amount of disease contracted by the 
 men engaged in this work ? — Yes, by the putters- 
 together, polishers, and by the casters, but we have 
 only made a specific application with regard to the 
 casters. We want to concentrate our evidence on that 
 class. We could say as much for the polishers almost 
 as for the casters, but we have dealt with casters 
 only. 
 
 419 
 
 2481. Of the 7,000 men who are distributed among Mr. W. J. 
 the six branches you have mentioned, can you tell Davis. 
 
 approximately how many are engaged in casting ?— „„ „ „ 
 
 2,000 altogether. ^30 Nov. 19 06 
 
 2482. You speak for those 7,000 men ?— Yes. 
 
 2483. But I suppose there are a certain number of 
 them who are outside your society ?— Yes, I represent 
 more, because 1 represent also the tube workers, which 
 IS a separate branch under the same roof. 
 
 2484. But you represent, as I understand, 2,000 casters? 
 — Yes. 
 
 2485. How many more casters are there in Birming- 
 ham that are not represented by you. What would the 
 total number be !— I should say about 300. 
 
 2486. Then you very nearly represent the whole 
 trade, do you?— Yes, as far as Birmingham is con- 
 cerned. 
 
 2487. Do the 2,000 casters all belong to a benefit 
 society. Is the society you represent a trade union pure 
 and simple, or are there benefits attached to it ?— The 
 benefits are strike pay, out-of-work pay, sick piy, super- 
 annuation, and general benefits. 
 
 2488.. Out of your 2,000 men, how many get the 
 benefits of the sick pay, the superannuation, and the 
 general benefit — the whole 2,000 ? — Yes. 
 
 2489. Can you give an idea roughly how much they 
 contribute to that fund, and what benefits they get ? — 
 The brass casters trouble us most, that is to say, they 
 are on the funds more frequently. 
 
 2490. I want to know the relative figures — what do 
 they cost you in figures ?— About 20 per cent, of the 
 casters declare on the funds each year. 
 
 2491. Forsickpay, superannuation, or funeral benefits ? 
 — Yes, under one of those three heads. 
 
 2492. Can you give an idea of the amount to which 
 they come on the funds ? — As we have various sections, 
 that is difficult to say. One is entitled to 5s. a 
 week, and another lis. Some of the superannuated 
 members are entitled to 5s., some to 6s., and some to 7s. 
 per week. 
 
 2493. How many pattern makers come upon the funds 
 of your society ? — About one per cent. 
 
 2494. And chasers ? — About one per cent ; they are 
 both healthy trades. 
 
 2495. And finishers ? — About five per cent. 
 
 2496. Then burnishing and polishing ? — You must put 
 the burnishers first j it is a healthier trade than the 
 polishers. Burnishers I should say five per cent. 
 
 2497. And polishers ? — Quite fifteen per cent. 
 
 2498. And the putters-together ? — That is a very un- 
 healthy trade ; there is white lead u.sed in that. I should 
 say twenty-five per cent. The parts are put together 
 with white lead, and the men have to test the work by 
 suction with the mouth, and the white lead gets into 
 their systems. 
 
 2499. Will you describe as well as you can the symp- 
 toms to which brass casters are subject, and stale to 
 what you attribute them ?— The process of brass casting 
 is this : there is a furnace into which is put a pot,. 
 called a casting-pot, or a large crucible, in which the 
 metal is melted, and when it is in a molten condition and. 
 
 £ 2 
 
"G 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. W. J. 
 Davis. 
 
 30 Nov. 1906. 
 
 ready for pouring, the operation of pouring is very 
 heavy. To staad the fire.-; a man has to he of hercult^n 
 strength and there is such a smother m the plauo that 
 one can hardly see the man who is doing the pouring. 
 He is practically invisible, and one of the witnesses, 1 
 think, will be able to show you a photograph of the 
 operation. You can see the process of pouring, but the 
 difficulty is to find the man. It is these fumes getting 
 into the system and on to the lungs makes them so ill. 
 They die very young. The very strongest of them may 
 live to be 60 years of age sometimes, but not at 
 casting work. They have to retire before then, and I 
 do not think you could find out of the 2,000 casters six 
 of them who are at work at 60 years of age. 
 
 2500. What number of men would be at work at 63 
 years of age in the other branches of the trade 1 — The 
 finishing is a very healthy trade and there would be, I 
 should say, as many of that age employed as in any 
 other part of the community. 
 
 2501. What would you put it at as a percentage?- I 
 should say about 20 per cent, above the age of 60. 
 
 2502. In the healthier trades do you mean there 
 would be 20 per cent, employed over 60 years of age, 
 and in the casting trade there would not be 1 per cent. 1 
 — Yes, six out of 2,000 would not be 1 per cent. 
 
 2503. I suppose the conditions were much worse in 
 past years than they are now 1 — Much worse. 
 
 2504. Do you think that the operation of the various 
 Acts which have been passed have conduced to any im- 
 provement in the conditions? —Yes, I was a member of 
 the Departmental Committee which sat in 18i)6, and I 
 think there is no doubt that legislation has considerably 
 improved the condition of the shops. 
 
 2505. Would you say that improved education, or at 
 all events the improved wisdom of the workmen, has im- 
 proved the conditions of life under which they live and 
 that they take more care of themselves than they used 
 to ? — The improved sanitary arrangements everywhere 
 have helped them, but, of course it has helped the other 
 part of the community as well. 
 
 2506. I quite agree ; but do you think the fact that 
 there are very few old men in the trade is partly due to 
 past conditions ? — That holds in all trades except casting 
 and polishing. It does not hold in casting because you 
 may improve the conditions, but the deadly nature of 
 the operation knocks a man down suddenly. You can 
 improve it as much as you like, but there are some con- 
 stitutions that cannot stand it as well as others. We 
 have been largely helped by regulations from your de- 
 partment certainly. 
 
 2507 And I suppose by the improved intelligence of 
 the worker ? — Yes, quite so. 
 
 2508. Would you say that that was true as an authority 
 on the question ? — That is absolutely true, and you might 
 include increased sobriety. 
 
 2509. There is less of the taproom about the trade 
 than there used to be in years gone by, is there? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2510. What are the symptoms of the complaint from 
 which the men suffer ! — The men call it brassworkers' 
 ague, but the doctors differ. 
 
 2511. What are the symptoms that supervene. I do 
 not know whether you have ever worked in a shop ? — 
 Not at brass casting. I am a finishur and maker of 
 chandeliers. 
 
 2512. Are you able to speak from personal experience ? 
 — I think other witnesses had better gi> e the symptoms, 
 but I can do so. The symptoms are that the man feels 
 shivery when the first attack comes on, and begins to 
 tremble. Then he goes home, and perhaps on the way 
 he thinks he wants some beer or something. The dust is 
 down him, and if he is unwise he will have some beer, 
 which will make him worse. He goes home and someone 
 says, " Oh, you want to sweat that out." He goes to bed 
 and does sweat. The next morning he gets up still 
 weaker. If it is an acute attack he will begin to cou^h 
 very much, and if he does not very much improve he will 
 have to keep in bed ; he cannot keep up at all. Then 
 the doctor is called in, and gives him something to relieve 
 him, and he may return to work if it is a mild attack in 
 a few days. If it is a bad case it may last him his life, 
 .80 far as being able to work is concerned. Sometimes in 
 extreme cases they never get over it, but if it is a mild 
 case the man returns to work. The second attack is 
 still more severe, and after the third attack he becomes 
 almost paralysed. 
 
 2513. Hd,ve you a certain number of men who are in 
 tne condition of this third attack, who can be shown 
 and seen 1 — Yes. 
 
 2514. Are those men actually working now?— No; 
 they are either on our superannuation fund or in receipt 
 of sick pay. Finishers cannot come on the fund until 
 they are 60 years of age, but brass casters can at 55 ; aid 
 at 55 they seldom receive the benefit because they die 
 younger. 
 
 2515. But have you a certain number of men whom 
 you would say are in the third stage?— Yes, the last 
 stage. I will produce the actual men. 
 
 2516. And do you put that down to the fumes of the 
 casting ? — Yes. 
 
 2517. If means could be adopted to remove those 
 fumes, could the trade be rendered harmless ? _ By proper 
 arrangements as to ventilation, do you think it would be 
 practically impossible for the fumes to get to the men ?— 
 There is an apparatus which takes a good deal of the 
 fumes away from the men, but I question whether it 
 will ever be a healthy trade under any circumstances. 
 
 2518. Could you furnish the details of the 20 per cent, 
 of the men you have mentioned as coming on the funds 
 in the form of a table, man by man ? — Yes. 
 
 25iy. I assume you do not ascribe to this disease the 
 whole 20 per cent, that have come upon your funds ; 
 there will be the usual proportion amongst them who 
 are ill from other causes ? — Yes, there would be about 
 five per cent., that is to say, to put them on the same 
 footing as finishers. 
 
 2520. I am surprised rather at the small figures with 
 regard to pattern-makers, because one per cent, seems 
 to be a small number to go upon the funds yearly ? — 
 There is not one per cent. 
 
 2521. So that many of the men go through their livesi 
 if they are healthy, without ever coming on your funds 
 at all ? — Yes, many of them. Many of them die without 
 ever having had any benefit from the Union. 
 
 2522. The Union put them on the funis, I suppoje 
 after discussion before a committee and hearing what 
 the doctors say ? — No, it is simply a declaring note from 
 a doctor ; a certificate from a surgeon. 
 
 2523. You act entirely on the doctor's certificate, do 
 you, without any enquiry ?^Yes, unless we had a 
 complaint that a man was malingering ; then there 
 would be an enquiry before a committee. Otherwise, 
 the procedure is automatic. 
 
 2524. Have you any theory as to what metal it is that 
 causes this disease ? — The zinc. The yellower the metal 
 the more deadly the poison. 
 
 2525. The yellowness of brass is, to a certain extent 
 caused by the lead in it, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 2526. Would there be five per cent, of lead, and even 
 more, in some cases ? — Yes. 
 
 2527. Is not it probable that a certain number of these 
 cases are really lead poisoning ? — Yes, I should say it is 
 probable ; but zinc oxide is the deadly thing. 
 
 2527*. Can you give the Committee any idea of the 
 proportions of zinc to those of lead contained in the 
 metal which these men use ? — It varies. Metals may 
 contain 17 per cent, of zinc or much more. 
 
 2528. Can you give the proportion of men who are 
 poisoned by lead as compared with zinc ? Do your 
 doctors report on the difference between lead and zinc 
 poisoning ?— No, I should say that a third of the cases 
 only could be accounted for by poisoning from lead. 
 
 2529. And there still remain two-thirds from zinc?-- 
 Yes. 
 
 2530. Do you know what treatment doctors give them 
 generally ?— No ; I must refer you to the doctors for 
 that. 
 
 2531. One or two of the medical men who have been 
 before the Committee stated that they do not think very 
 much of brass founders' ague. What they say is that 
 it is a thing that attacks men particularly when they 
 come fresh to the work either for the first time in their 
 lives or after a cessation of the work for some time, that 
 they get vomiting and sickness and an uncomfortable 
 feeling, or more than an uncomfortable feeling ; 
 that they go home and sweat it ofi", but that in 
 a day or two they are quite right, and that the aggravated 
 cases do not last more than two weeks or three weeks, 
 orat the most four weeks, and that permanent disability 
 from it does not occur within their knowledge. What 
 doyou say to that?— I say the doctors are wrong. The 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 77 
 
 young and strong may have just a little bit uf sickriess 
 and vomiting, as you say, but tbey are very strong and 
 healthy men it may be, till they are 26, 28, 30, 35, or 40 
 years of age, but then they collapse, and are unfit for 
 work in any foundry. It is in their prime that they 
 aufifer most. » 
 
 2532. Can you give of the twenty per cent, you have 
 mentioned the proportions that are reseiv.ng different 
 forms of relief. I want an idea of the proportion of 
 men who are permanently or partially disabled, or to a 
 small degree disabled. Can you furnish a table showing 
 that?— Yes, I think I could supply a useful table. It 
 ■would take a little time to do it, because tbere are so 
 many mea coming off and on in sick cases. 
 
 2533. Can you give the figures, drawn actually from 
 your books, of the number of men you have on the books 
 for a week or for two or three days 1 — They cannot be 
 «n for less than a week, and I should have to get out 
 "the days to complite the figures. 
 
 2534. Will you let the Committee know how many 
 ■were on the books for a week, a fortnight, or three 
 weeks, how many were getting superannuation pay, and 
 in how many cases funeral expenses were paid ? —Yes, 
 I may say that out of 106 men who are on our super- 
 annuation fund there are but eight casters and yet we 
 .put them on at 55 years of age instead of 60. 
 
 2535. How many of all the other branches of the trade 
 are there. You have eight out of a body of 2,000 casters ; 
 low many mea out of the remaining 5,000 have you on 
 the superannuation fund 1 — We have lOo altogether on 
 the funds ; so that that would leave 98 men of other 
 trades out of 5,000, and only eight out of 2,000, on the 
 superannuation fund. 
 
 ■ ■ 2536. {Professor Allbutt.) In the description of the 
 ■symptoms you have given us you seem to me to have 
 mixed up two or three forms of disease. What medical 
 men tell us is that we have to distinguish the ague from 
 Ihefmore chronic poisoning 1 — Yes. 
 
 2537. That the ague is a sort of acute poisoning which 
 -does not run on into the other form. If you disagree, 
 ■of course you will say so as an observer, but one or two 
 ■employers, or managers, to whom we spoke, are of the 
 opinion that ague is an indisposition which comes on 
 when a man either first commences the work or returns 
 to it after an absence, but that, after a while, he gets a 
 •certain immunity from it apparently with no further 
 •damage to his constitution 1 — He gets inured. 
 
 2538. Do I understand that you are not dealing with 
 brass-workers generally 1 — For my present purposes I am 
 not considering them. We are dealing "with the deadliest 
 trade from our point of "view. 
 
 2539. Then you would have to take it, I think, that 
 the medical men allege that from brass casting only two 
 consequences arise ; first of all the ague to which the men 
 get inured, and which does not ultimately harm them , 
 and secondly, the pulmonary affections which may 
 arise from the inhalation of particles. Do you think 
 your chronic invalids have fallen ill from pulmonary 
 disease ?— Yes, brought about by what they call the 
 smother. 
 
 2540. Would you say that bronchitis was the cause of 
 your men becoming disabled ? — Yes. 
 
 2541. It is rather through their lungs that they suffer 1 
 —Yes. 
 
 2542. So that if you found reason to regard the agut 
 as a temporary thing, your attention would be centred 
 Tather upon the pulmonary form of disease, would it 
 not? -Yes. 
 
 2543. Do you attribute the disease to zinc, but not so 
 much to zinc poisoning as to its direct action as an 
 irritant to the lungs ?— The men suffer in a variety of 
 ■ways. I could not give a definite negative or affirmative 
 .j.ea.son. 
 
 2544. Do you think these men die young ?— The great 
 majority die under 55, or even under 50. 
 
 2545. The work is a work involving very hard labour 
 is it not?— Yes, very. 
 
 2516. Apart from the poison in any articles used in 
 the trade it involves excessive muscular labour, such as 
 the work of puddlers, who are not exposed to poisonous 
 iumes, and would you not f-^y that the same effects 
 might appear in them?— I do not think that follows. 
 I think in addition to the effects of the zinc and 
 lead we have men working quite as hard as they 
 ■do. Turning at the lathe by foot, as we use;! to, 
 is much harder work than the present brass casting. 
 Those men were healthy men, and were never attacked 
 
 by these sort of things at all. So that I do not think Mr. W. J. 
 it is the excessive labour which affects them. Of course, Pavis. 
 
 to stand at a fire and mould is heavy work, but it is not 
 
 the heaviest work in the trade. •^'■' N'>v. 1906. 
 
 2547. The Corrimittee saw one man actually engaged 
 in casting yesterday, and he seemed a little Hercules, an 
 exceedingly powerful, short man, and I should think he 
 was a fairish a ^e — a mm of 50 hi certainly had grey 
 hair. It struck me as being a very laborious employ- 
 ment, and he was bathed in perspiration ? — Probably he 
 was strip casting, which is a very different thing ; it is 
 more laborious. That is the most laborious part of ths 
 work. That is pouring, nob what we call casting ; it is 
 pouring into ingots the metal for the other casters. 
 
 2548. Then that is not the class of man who breaks 
 down first, is it ? — The class of men you speak of break 
 down as often as the others from the effects of the 
 sulphur in the mixing and so on. 
 
 2549. You see the Committee has to try to distinguish 
 between the effects of heavy and continuous muscular 
 exertion and the effects of particular poisons used 
 in trades. Do you not find that in all laborious occu- 
 pations diseases principally of the heart are prevalent ? 
 — I did not know it. 
 
 2550. That is the case in all laborious occupations 
 combined with a certain amount of drink ? — Quite so, 
 but I think you will admit that there is in iron casting 
 quite as laborious work as in brass work, but they do 
 not suffer as brass workers do. 
 
 2551. My opinion is very much to the contrary. Iron- 
 workers — of whom I know a good deal, having been 
 physician to the infirmary at Leeds for many years— do 
 suffer ? — I am sorry for them, but I have always under- 
 stood^ and my experience as a factory inspector was, 
 that ironworkers were much healthier. 
 
 2552. They break down with regard to the heirt and 
 the blood vessels if engaged in the laborion.s part of the 
 work. Have such men as you are going to produce 
 before the Committee been regularly submitted to your 
 medical man for examination ? — We have not a medical 
 man in that sense. These men are generally in a sick 
 society; the doctor takes them at so much per 1,000 and 
 gives them medicine. They cannot always be inquiring 
 why such and such an illness has arisen. 
 
 2553. The Chairman has indicated to you what the 
 medical men say, that this is ague. Then as to chronic 
 poisoning, the medical men who spoke most strongly 
 about it said that three weeks' medical treatment would 
 get them well again, what do you say as to that ?— Did 
 they tell y ou why they died so young 
 
 2554. (Chairman.) I think all that emphasises the 
 necessity of your giving us the best figures you can. 
 Figures are very eloquent things if they are corre t, 
 and the Committee would like the very best figures and 
 the best details you can give— and I am sure they will 
 be honestly given — as to the branches of this trade, and 
 the different numbers of men you have on the booAS, 
 particularly specifying the different amounts paid to 
 them, and the weeks and months they are on the funds, 
 not only doing it with regard to casters, but with regard 
 to the other br inches, so that we can institute a com- 
 parison between the trades. 
 
 2554a. {Professor Allbutt.) With regard to improve- 
 ment in sanitation and the improved character of the 
 workmen, there is no doubt about that, is there ? — No. 
 
 2555. I have been struck, and I suppose you have been 
 struck in visiting works, to find the very great differences 
 there are in the sanitary conditions of the buildings ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2556. Some seem very much neglected and roush, 
 and others seem to be kept comparatively tidy ?— Quite 
 so. 
 
 2557. Without going into very complicated details 
 would you say, on the whole, the cleaner and purer a 
 place is kept, the less sickness there would be?— The 
 cleaner and tidier a workplace is kept, including the 
 workmen, the better for everybody. 
 
 2558. Do not you think a very great deal might be 
 done in the way of keeping shops much cleaner than 
 they are?— Yes. 
 
 2559. Do you think it is compatible with ths duties 
 which people have to perform in them that the whole of 
 the places might be kept very, very much cleaner than 
 the cleanest of them now are ?— They could be very much 
 improved. 
 
 2560 {Chairman) Taking the men who are on the 
 sick list, can you form an opinion as to whether the 
 
78 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. TT. J. larger or disproportionate number of them come from 
 Davis. certain foundries which are known to be bad foundries. 
 
 There are known to be bad foundries and good foundries 
 
 30 Nov. 1906. in the trade, I suppose ?— Yes, there are, but T do not 
 thiuK we could discriminate. I think the sickness they 
 suffer from will occur at the least unexpected place. 
 
 2561. Is it not the fact— and a fact known perfectly to 
 your men— that there are good foundries and bad foun- 
 dries, places where they are much more likely to get ill 
 than at others % — I do not want to say the case cannot 
 happen where there is ventilation and cleanliness. We do 
 not set so much illness from some of the best foundries, 
 but I do not know that there is a fouodry free from it. 
 
 25S2. It would be rather important if you could 
 furnish us with the names of the foundries the men hav» 
 been working at. We will not publish it, but I think it 
 will be very important if you can let us have it 1 — I will 
 do what I can with regard to that. 
 
 2563. Could you give us the names of the firms, be- 
 cause I should much like to see them '! — I will give you ■ 
 all the information I can. 
 
 2564. Your case is so largely a statistical one, that we 
 must have the best possible figures if we can get them, 
 so as to make the case as full and as clear as possible. 
 Professor Allbutt suggests that you should give the 
 Committee some information as to the Kainsford and 
 Lynes patent apparatus. Can you do so? — I gave a lecture 
 on the subject at the technical institute here. I think it is 
 a very good arrangement, and it only costs some £6 or 
 £7 to put in, but that is the great obstacle with the 
 manufacturers. They spend nothing if they can 
 help it. 
 
 2565. It is also alleged that in many places the men 
 will not use them. They say they get in the way, and 
 that they cannot see to pour ; do you know anything 
 about that 1 — That is tne excuse the manufacturers 
 make. 
 
 2566. You do not think the men say that % — Generally 
 speaking, no. There may be a stupid man here and 
 there amongst the casters who will not use the thing. 
 
 2567. But your view is, is it, that the men like them 1 
 —Yes ; in fact, they should be made to like them if 
 they do not, because with them you can minimise the 
 danger. 
 
 2568. I suppose the owner of this patent is not 
 charging exorbitant terms for it, is he ? — Oh dear no ; 
 it is a few pounds, that is all. 
 
 2569. I meant exorbitant terms for the patent rights. 
 — Oh no • I think he would be pleased to.give it to the 
 public if he could see it generally adopted. He is in the 
 trade, and he is a man of that kind. 
 
 2570. You think he would be content with a very 
 small royalty, do you ? — Yes, his desire is to see that, or 
 something like it, used. 
 
 2571. Who is the inventor ? — Mr. Lynes, of Eainsford 
 and Lynes, of Emily Street, Birmingham. 
 
 2572. They are not people relying on this patent for a 
 livelihood, but have a large business, have they 1 — They 
 have a large business ; they employ 100 of our members. 
 
 2573. Do they employ this thing, then,' in their own 
 works regularly 1 — Yes. I should think they would 
 show you both processes, the old and the new. 
 
 2574. Even with this thing apparently there must be 
 a little of the fumes coming out ?— Y'es, I should think 
 about 15 per cent, as against 80 per cent without it. 
 
 2575. Is your lecture printed? — Yes, just a synopsis 
 of it. I can send you a copy of it 
 
 2576. {Dr. Legge.) With regard to the figures which 
 you are going to supply, do I understand that sick pay 
 is given on a doctor's certificate ? — Yes. 
 
 2577. l''ou personally, I suppose, see all these medical 
 certificates ■?— Either my cashier, or a clerk, or myself. 
 
 2578. Do you file them and keep them 1— No. We keep 
 them perhaps for twelve months, but not longer. 
 
 2579. Can you let the Committee see the certificates'! 
 —Yes. 
 
 2580. Have you ever seen brass poisoning mentioned' 
 on one of these certificates t. — No. 
 
 2581. Brass poi.soning is not a term which is recognised, 
 is it ?— No, they would not put brass poisoning on. 
 
 2582. Have you found ague or brass workers' fever, or 
 anything of the sort on them ?— No, the doctors generally 
 give the men a certificate that they are unable to work. 
 
 2583. Do they not mention the particular disease? 
 —No, they do not mention the particular disease. 
 
 2584. Cannot you require that they should mention 
 the particular disease ?— No, because we do not pay the 
 doctors. Our declaration notes would be of no use to 
 you ; it would simply be that Thomas Jones is ill and 
 unable to follow his employment. 
 
 2585. If you published in your annual report an 
 analysis of the diseases for which you allow siSk pay, it- 
 would help us very much, would it not 1 — Yes : and we 
 should have done so if we had known this inquiry was 
 coming on. The Compensation Bill came along, the 
 dangerous trades question cropped up, but we did not 
 know of it, or I am sure I should have prepared tha 
 statistics. 
 
 2586. So that it is merely your own opinion, is it, that 
 these brass workers are so incapacitated late in life. • I 
 mean you have no doctor's evidence ? — My opinion,, based 
 upon a large experience, you know. 
 
 2587. Y'^ou said, I think, when a man has an attack of 
 ague he sends for the doctor. Is it a fact that they do-: 
 send for the doctor ? — Yes. 
 
 2588. My impression always has been that the 
 symptoms were very slight and evanescent, and the 
 recovery was so rapid in 90 per cent, of the cases that ' 
 they did not send for a medical man 1 — Yes, but I was- 
 dealing with the acute cases. I said the first attack was a 
 mild one ; the second was worse ; but when the acute'^ 
 stage came on they had to send for a doctor. Sometimes 
 they are not in a sick club and go on without a doctorj, ■: 
 but if they are in a sick club they can send for a doctor,, 
 which costs them nothing. Th^ they do. 
 
 2589. Do you know of cases where men get an attack' 
 of this every week — every Monday after they return to the 
 casting shop ? — Yes, I have known of cases where, being; 
 absent from the Saturday afternoon to the Monday, the=' 
 strength of the fumes is too much for them on th& 
 Monday, but they only get a slight attack of it, and get - 
 inured to it ; they go on that week and get another, and 
 similar attacks the following weeks. 
 
 5590. Those attacks week by week can hardly be 
 cumulative in the sense that you refer to, can they ? — 
 No, not in that sense. It would be arising from a weak 
 constitution perhaps, and a man might be very carefuJ 
 and sustain them for a time. They are very subject to 
 them right up to the end, and the men who suflfer first 
 and suffer frequently are the men who die soonest. There 
 is one statement I wish to make. During my experience - 
 as Her Majesty's Inspector of Factories in Yorkshire 
 and in Derbyshirej where there are white lead works, I 
 never saw anything like the amount of sickness and 
 abstention from work, in consequence of the process of 
 the work, as I have seen in the brass trade, that is to- 
 say, in brass casting. 
 
 2591. {Professor Allhutt.) There is a little difference 
 between more frequent and more permanent, is there 
 not? — I should say the brass casting is more perma- 
 nent. I have seen whiter faces in white lead works. 
 
 2592. My experience of white lead works in the 
 Potteries and elsewhere is that the people have whiter 
 faces than those engaged in the brass trade.— I cannot 
 speak of the Potteries, but I can speak of the white lead 
 works, as such, in Derbyshire and Yorkshire. 
 
 2593. {Chairman.) Your case must be, must it not>'. 
 that while the trade, taken as a whole, is not alleged by 
 you to be an unhealthy trade, certain branches of it do 
 present conditions of abnormal unhealthiness?— Y^es, 
 especially the casting. 
 
 2594. And you will be able to produce some figure* 
 ■with regard to that, will you ?— Yes. 
 
 Mr. Isaac Bradley, called in and examined. 
 
 2585. {Chairman.) Have you been Coroner for Bir- 
 
 Mr. I. iumgham since April, 1897 f — Yes ; and I have had a 
 
 Mradlc-y knowledge of the brass trade, unofficially, all my life, 
 
 ■ because 1 have lived here all my life, and my father was 
 
 in the brass trade, 
 
 2596. The brass trade may be, for our purposes, 
 roughly divided into two processes, namely, the founding 
 or casting of brass and the various processes of finishing 
 and polishing. Do you understand them both?— Yes, I 
 understand them both. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 79 
 
 2597. The case made to the Committee is that it is 
 particularly in the casting and founding of brass that 
 disease is likely to occur, and if you please we will take 
 your views on that point first. Do you agree that there 
 13 a, ditference between the two?— I think there is a 
 decided difference bet\^en the two. 
 
 2598. Will you state your view as to how far the 
 founding or casting of brass is a dangerous occupation ? 
 — I have never had any evidence, as a coroner, of that. 
 I have never had any case of death from brass casting, 
 ^hich has been attributed to the trade in any way at all! 
 My father was a caster ; he was a small master, and I 
 was brought Up in the middle of it. He himself had 
 ■chronic bronchitis. I do not know that it was brought 
 on by his trade. I never heard it said, but almost all 
 -the time I knew him he was a chronic bronchitic, and 
 used to keep out of the_ way when they were pouring 
 metal and fumes were arising. 
 
 2599. He considered it dangerous to him, did he ?— 
 Yes. Of course it irritated his breathing passages, but 
 1 have seen him pour metal hiniself on an emergency, 
 and when he was going to do it he would tie up his 
 mouth with a big handkerchief. I have never known 
 a,ny death arise from casting, and have never had it 
 ■suggested to me. 
 
 2600. I suppose the deaths might occur from that 
 ■cause without its being brought before you. Men quietly 
 ■dying in hospital would not be the subjects of an inquest, 
 would they 1— 1^0, but I think I should probably have 
 heard of it if the doctor had any notion that it was due 
 to some practical trade process.' I might not have heard 
 •of it in every case if therewere many, but in Birmingham 
 the medical men are, if I may say so, in very happy rela- 
 tion vsith me, and in almost every doubtful case, or a 
 case which they think is worth enquiring into, the habit 
 ■of the profession in Birmingham, 1 am glad to say, is to 
 report it to me, and give me a chance at any rate of 
 saying whether I want to go into it further or not. I 
 quite understand that a man might say, "This is a natural 
 -death and I can certify," so that the Coroner would not 
 hear of it ; but I think it is probable I should have heard 
 •of it if there had been many caes. 
 
 2601. (Professor Allbutt.) It would be rather cases of 
 acute disease, would it not, that would come before you 1 
 — i do not know about that. 
 
 2602. Would a chronic case lasting over some years 
 some _ under your notice ? — Not necessarily, but practi- 
 cally it would depend on the particular view the doctor 
 took. 
 
 2603. (Chairman.) Apart from the question of death, 
 would you say the founding and casting of brass was a 
 trade likely to give people pneumonia, for instance, or 
 ^phthisis, or bronchitis, or something of that kind ] — Only 
 in the sense that any occupation may become dangerous. 
 1 will take the first illustration that occurs to me. You 
 might say an engine-driver on a locomotive was apart 
 from the ordinary dangers of a railway, specially liable 
 to take pneumonia because he is working with his fire 
 on one side of him and a keen wind on the other side 
 •of him. It is only dangerous, I should judge, in that 
 iremoter sense. The regulations which were made a few 
 years ago as to casting shops, I should think, did all that 
 could be done. 
 
 2604. How would you account for the fact that the 
 ' secretary of a large workmen's trade union here says 
 
 that the number of men who are engaged in casting and 
 founding who come upon the funds is abnormally large, 
 while on the other hand the superannuation amount is 
 ■abnormally small ; very abnormally large in one case 
 and very abnormally small in the other. While he does 
 not represent the whole trade as an unhealthy trade, he 
 says that that branch of it comes upon the funds in 
 such a striking way that it can leave no inference but 
 tl^at founding and casting is unhealthy. What should 
 you say as to that ?^-Gf course, I should not attempt 
 to contradict any considered opinion of Mr. Davis. 
 
 2603. But would it surprise you to find that? — Yes, it 
 ■does ; I should not have expected that. Of course, as 
 a side issue — I do not want to run away from an 
 answer — casters are as a class rather intemperate and 
 they do not take care of themselves. 
 
 2606- In the same way that the other members of the 
 trade do ? — Tney are particularly, I should say, people 
 ■who drink a good deal. They are in shops where there 
 are furnaces, and my experience is that they drink a 
 good deal more than they should. 
 
 2607. And there is, in addition, the cold 'blast of air 
 and the heat 1 — I do not think that is worse than in 
 
 thousands of other shops. My eldest brother was y)/^ / 
 brought up to my father's business : he is alive and he Bmdley. 
 
 is 66, and has never suffered from bronchitis as my '■ 
 
 father did. 30 Nov. 1&06. 
 
 2608. He was not engaged in actual casting himself, 
 was he 1 — Yes, he was for a great number of years. He 
 has experimented a good deal of late years with all sorts 
 of metal, and has been doing a good deal of actual 
 casting lately. 
 
 2609. What would you say with regard to the other 
 branches of the trade, such as pattern -making, burnish 
 ing, and polishing? — Pattern-making and chasing are 
 very simple trades, and are not dangerous at all. I 
 have notes of a case here to which I gave a good deal of 
 attention in 1901, the case of a brass polisher who died, 
 and on whom I held an inquest. Brannan was the 
 man's name. I had a good deal of talk with Mr. 
 Knyvett, and communicated with the Ilome OfKce 
 about it. I have the draft of my letter to the Home 
 Office dated the 23rd July, 1901. 
 
 2610. What is the point generally ? — The material 
 point, if I may so call it, is this. Here is the draft of 
 the letter I wrote to the Home Secretary, and the 
 significant part 1o me is, as you will see, that when I 
 first draftea this letter I dealt with brass poisoning as 
 the point of the case, but after I had held the inquest 
 and considered the evidence a little I crossed out the 
 parts about brass poisoning. I looked at the time in all my 
 medical jurisprudence books to see if I could find any- 
 thing about brass poisoning, because in that case 
 Brannan was reported to me to have died of brass 
 poisoning by a young doctor, who was very energetic and 
 very sincere, called Moir. He was a doctor at one of the 
 branches of our dispensary, and he put it fairly and 
 squarely as a case of brass poisoning in just the same 
 way as he would have reported a case of lead poisoning. 
 He put it as a specific poison which had invaded the 
 system and brought about certain effects. First of all I 
 looked to see if I could find anything about brass poison- 
 ing in my books, and positively the only reference to 
 anything of the kind I found was in Luff's book, which 
 is one of the most modern books for cases of poisoning 
 and you see there he says :— " Chronic copper poisoning 
 is also occasionally met with among workers in the 
 metal and its salts, and also among brassworkers." 
 That is all. 
 
 2611. Then in fact, generally speaking, is it your view 
 that, though brass workers may be subject to disadvan- 
 tageous conditions from dust in general, you cannot say 
 that specifically as brass workers they suffer more than 
 any other trade in which there is dust fiying about ? — I 
 do not think so. At the same time I should like to show 
 you my original notes of that inquest. I have also 
 brought a newspaper cutting book which I keep, which 
 I will leave with you if you will undertake to let me 
 have it back. 
 
 2612. (Professor AllbuU.) Is the doctor who gave 
 evidence at the inquest still in practice ? — I do not 
 think he is still in Birmingham. The men who come 
 to the dispensaries are young men, who are making 
 their way, and they move on. For instance, this 
 gentleman succeeded Mr. Murray, who I think has 
 been before you. He succeeded Mr. Murray and 
 inherited certain of Mr. Murray's notes and views : 
 " First saw deceased 9th January, 1901." This inquest 
 was held in July, 1901, six months later. " I went to 
 him" — that means he saw him at his own house— 
 " Suffering from bronchitis and anaemia. He pulled up 
 a bit and grew a little stronger. I saw him once a 
 week. After a while he came and saw me His progress 
 continued until the first week in April. He was con- 
 siderably better then. I did not see him from then until 
 rather over a fortnight ago, when he came to me. He 
 was changed very much for the worse. He showed 
 signs of tubercular disease of the lung^i which he had 
 aot before. I attended him up to his death. I went to. 
 him at his house. He died on Thursday last, the 18th 
 I made a post-mortem ixamination. Externally, 
 nothing to notice, Emaciated internally, all organs 
 excessively aiiaemic, heart flabby and soft, showed signs 
 of fatty degeneration. Lungs congested with 
 inflammation on both sides ; tubercles scattered all 
 over. Small cavity in left apex, tubercles throughout 
 from the size of millet seed to that of hazel nut. Left 
 lung strongly adherent to the parietal pleura. Other 
 orgxns healthy except anaemia. Green line on gums. 
 I uaticed that the first day I saw him. Stomach was 
 hour-glass shaped. Surface eroded, very much so towards 
 orifice entering bowel. Pyloric orifice narrowed. Cause 
 of deat'i was chronic brass-poisoning and tubercular 
 
80 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 Mr. '. 
 Brai/ley. 
 
 30 Nov 
 
 1906 
 
 pneumonia." Then I questioned him. " Brasa 
 poisoning lowers the vitality by its effect on the blood 
 and digestive organs. It does not directly cause 
 pneumonia, but leaves the system ill-prepared to resist. 
 I have met vrith a great number of similar cases in 
 my practice at the Dispensary — pallor, marking of teeth 
 and gums, pain and colic (abdominal), vomiting in 
 morning, metallic taste in mouth, excessive night- 
 sweats, general weakness, sometimes dizziness, frequently 
 gastritis. These particular symptoms are confined 
 almost entirely to brass trade. Lungs take in dust 
 charged with zinc and copper. Skin also absorbs 
 something. Hands sweating also. Sometimes;they put 
 tubes in the mouth (that means they use a brass tube 
 between the lips). Remedies would be, perfect ventilation 
 by purified air rapidly circulated. Also more precautions 
 by workers themselves, such as respirators. I think 
 brass workers ought to be seen occasionally by medical 
 men." Then the iury put some questions, and in 
 answer he said : " I do not think the sulphur fumes 
 mentioned would have much to do with death. I have 
 not come across many cases of casters, more of 
 polishers." Then in answer to Mr. Knyvett he said : 
 " The symptoms I have described belong more to polishers 
 than to casters. It is proper to prevent food 
 being taken in a polishing shop. I have seen iron 
 polishers, but I find more cases in brass workers. I there- 
 fore think the evil arises from metal dust. I think it 
 would be desirable that medical men should be called on 
 to report brass cases as they do lead cases." That was 
 the whole of the evidence. I asked Mr. Knyvett if he 
 had anything to say, and he said : " Government Inquiry 
 noc long since on brass poisoning dealt with evils of 
 casting and regulations were issued, polishing not touched 
 by those regulations." The Jury found a verdict on the 
 doctor's evidence of tubercular pneumonia facilitated 
 by anaemic condition from brass poisoning. There is a 
 report of the case in one of the newspapers, and another 
 of our papers, "The Gazette," took the case up and 
 wrote a leading article upon it. There was a great deal 
 of correspondence on the matter, including a letter from 
 
 Mr. Davis himself, and a letter from Mr. Murray, becausi 
 someone said Mr. Moir was taking credit for Mr. Murray'; 
 observations. I have never had, except froni the Lady 
 wood Dispensary, any suggestion of brass poisoning as ; 
 specific disease. You see Mr. Murray had been an ofiicei 
 there, he had taken this matter up, and thought he found 
 specific symptoms of brass poisoning. Mr. Mqir succeeded 
 him, and had Mr. Murray's notes and experience before 
 nim, and Mr. Murray was present when Mr. Moii 
 made the post-mortem examination, so that the twc 
 acted very much together. I have not had any sugges- 
 tion of chronic brass poisoning from anybody else other 
 than from Mr. Murray or from Mr. Moir, but I followed 
 it up rather carefully at the time, because it is one's 
 duty if one finds a loose stitch anywhere in a manufac- 
 ture, such as brass is in Birmingham, to see whether 
 anything can be done to remedy it. Mr. Knyvett gave 
 a great deal of attention to the case at the time. 
 
 2613. Are you of opinion that there is no special 
 danger in the brass trade other than the general dangers 
 attaching to dusty trades 1 — That is my opinion, because 
 1 have never had any evidence to the contrary. 
 
 2614. As regards casting and founding, do you hold 
 the same view?— I think the regulations which were 
 made as to brass casting a few years ago met eveiy- 
 thing that could reasonably be suggested. They were 
 the outcome of much deliberation. I do not know 
 whether any of you gentlemen were connected with 
 them, but it was gone into wdth regard to the whole of 
 the brass trade. 
 
 2615. Still, brass casting was put down as a dangerous 
 trade before those regulations were made, was not it 1— 
 Yes. Of course, the definition of " dangerous " is a little 
 relative. 
 
 2i!16. Have you seen the invention for cairying off the 
 fumes arising from a crucible by suction draught and a, 
 cover? — No, I have not. I have seen at one shop 
 a very efficient system by which the dust is sucked 
 downwards, but that was wdth reference to polishing 
 and not casting. 
 
 Mr. W. C. McStocker, called in and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. C. 
 McStocker. 
 
 2617. {Chair 1710,71.) Are you a brass finisher ? Ye-". 
 
 2618. That is not an unhealthy branch of the trade, 
 is it ?— No. 
 
 2619. What are you going to tell us about brass 
 casters ? — I have had a lot to do with them. I am the 
 President of the Society of Atnaleamated Brass Workers. 
 
 2620. Is it as the president of the society that yoa 
 wish to give evidence ? — Yes. 
 
 2621. Do you consider that the brass casting and 
 founding is by far the most unhealthy part of the busi- 
 ness ? — Yes, there is no question about that. 
 
 2622. Would you agree with Mr. Davis that, taking 
 the other branches of the trade, many of them, with the 
 exception of polishing, are not unhealthy ?— Not nearly 
 so unhealthy as casting. 
 
 2623. Is it not the fact that vour men die at an 
 average age, and are rather older than their wives, taking 
 the whole trade together and not dealing with casting 
 only ? — I have not gone into that question. 
 
 2624. Would not you agree that taking it on the whole 
 as a trade comprising its six great branches, it cannot be 
 said to be an unhealthy trade. I want to know, yes or 
 no ? — I should say it was as a whole an unhealthy trade. 
 
 2625. You have a trade with 7,000 men in it, and 2,000 
 of those men are casters, but apart from the casters it 
 has, as I understand, been represented to us that the 
 trade upon the whole is not an unhealthy one ?— Well, 
 no ; taking it as a whole, I should say not. 
 
 2626. So that the real fact is, is it not, that the un- 
 healthiness of the trade concentrates round the casters 
 and the founders, and also amongst some of the polishers ? 
 —Yes, the casters first I should say, and then the 
 polishers. 
 
 2627. Do you have a large number of casters who come 
 upon your funds ? — Yes. 
 
 2628. Is the proportion larger amongst casters than 
 amongst other parts of the trade ? — I should say yes. 
 
 2629. Very much larger ? — Yes. 
 
 2630. What proportion should you say 1 — I think you 
 will have to get those figures from Mr. Davis. 
 
 2631. I daresay you can help Mr. Davis in getting for 
 
 the Committee some accurate figures, because it is no 
 use going on vague statements or suppositions. We want 
 actual facts, and from your books it would not be difficult 
 to take the past year, 1905, and exactly show how many 
 more casters come upon your funds than others, would 
 it ? — It would be an easy matter I should say, and we can 
 do it for you. 
 
 2632. Have you any knowledge of the illness from 
 which the brass casters suffer ? — From what I see it is 
 catarrh of the stomach and lungs, bronchitis and blood 
 poisoning. 
 
 2633. Anything else ?— It is a most dangerous trade. 
 
 2634. (Dr. Legge.) Are you now talking of what you 
 see on the medical certificates ? — Yes, and from what I 
 know by visiting. 
 
 2635. {Gha,irm%n.) To what do you attribute these 
 diseases ? — To the fumes. 
 
 2636. To the zinc fumes or the lead fumes ? — To both, 
 3637. Have you any idea what proportion would be 
 
 caused by zinc, and what proportion would be caused by 
 lead fumes? — No, I could not answer that question. 
 You see, I am not a caster. 
 
 2638. Would you be inclined to say that the larger 
 number of these cases occur in the worst ventilated, 
 factories? — Yes, I should say so. 
 
 2639. The bad ventilation of a bad factory has a good 
 deal to do with it, has it ? — Yes. 
 
 2640. Would you go as far as to say that if you could 
 have a perfectly ventilated factory with splendid 
 apparatus, the men ought to be able to work in the casting; 
 shop free from disease ? — No. It does not matter what 
 the ventilation at certain times of the year is, the fumes- 
 hang about in the shop, and you cannot get them out. 
 
 2641. But you might have fans which would draw 
 them, might not you ? — I don't think a fan would draw 
 them out. 
 
 2642. If you had a fan as big as a colliery fan you. 
 could draw it out, could not you ? — I think it would be 
 a difficult matter even then, because they are pouring, 
 you aee^ the whole or t&e day, where tdere are two or 
 three castirs employed in one shop. November, I 
 should say, is a very bad month. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 81 
 
 2643. Can you give specific instances of nieu who have 
 : sufi'ered in the way you mention ? — Yes. 
 
 2644. 1 suppose the conditions are better than they 
 used to be in tne old days ? — Yes. I have a case of a 
 man named P., aged 48, who has been ill about 
 
 .-eig;hteen months, ♦■suffering, in the first place, from 
 Bright's disease, said by the doctor to be caused by the 
 trade. This man is in the asylum now. I have 
 another case of H: W. P., ill for the last three years 
 through his trade. He was a strip caster. 
 
 2645. With regard to P., who has Bright's disease, 
 how long has he been on your funds ? — I do not know 
 
 i how long he has been on the funds. He is now in the 
 poor asylum. 
 
 2646. Then he is not in receipt of funds from your 
 - society, is he ? — They do receive relief although in the 
 
 ■ asylum, but I do not know whether in this case he is 
 receiving anything. 
 
 2647. Then he is incapacitated altogether from work 
 is he ?— Yes. Then I come to the case of H. W. P. 
 who has been ill for three years from his trade. He 
 is a strip caster, and he tells me that on two oc- 
 
 ■ casions he scalded his foot with the metal and 
 was away from his work 17 weeks and 12 weeks. 
 
 ' That goes to prove that it is dangerous work. That, 
 however, is not a case of poisor.ing. In a third case, 
 the man is here — J. H. He has been in the trade 
 40 years. He has been ill 10 weeks, and has been 
 unfit for work for a long time. He is here, so he will 
 be able to tell you about it himself. Another case I 
 have is an accident case. A man named P. met with 
 
 : an accident and was scalded so badly that he died in 
 great agony. I have not got the date of that case. The 
 next case I have is the case of G., who has been 
 in the trade over 50 years, but was compelled to 
 
 ' leave work two years ago. He has been ill on and off 
 for many years. 
 
 2648. What has been the matter with him 1 — Bron- 
 
 ■ chitis, I should say. Then I have another case — the 
 case of J. O., which will go to prove to you that 
 
 . brass casting is far more unhealthy than iron casting. 
 
 He called on me a very short time ago and said he was Mr. W. 0. 
 very ill indeed. He happened to be doing a little iron McStocher. 
 
 work where I am employed, but when he finished the 
 
 iron work he had to leave. 30 Nov. 190C. 
 
 2643. Was he engaged in casting iron? — Yes; he •■ "'- 
 could do both brass and iron casting. He came to me 
 and told me he should have to go to the infirmary 
 because he was so bad, and he wanted to know if I 
 could get him an interview with Mr. Davis to see if 
 anything could be done previously to his going into the 
 infirmary. He has been ill a long time from bronchitis. 
 
 2650. How long was it after he left the iron work and 
 went to go to the brass work that he began to get ill '? — 
 As soon as he touches brass the Qld complaint comes on 
 him, but he can stand the iron casting better than the 
 brass casting. 
 
 2651. Is he here to-day ? — No, he is not ; I think he 
 has gone into the infirmary. 
 
 2652. {Dr. Legge.) How many years has he been em- 
 ployed in the trade ? — I do not know, but he would be 
 nearly 50 years of age. Then I have another case — 
 the case of T. H., who is in a very bad condition, and 
 who can be seen standing against the wall fighting 
 for his breath. That is all through the trade. 
 
 2653. You mean that it is believed to be due to the 
 trade 1 — I do not think there is any doubt about it. 
 
 2654. But people can get bronchitis without being in 
 the brass trade, 1 suppose 1 — Yes. 
 
 2655. You cannot put it higher, can you, than that 
 there is a high degree of probability about it 1 — Yes. 
 
 2656. Have you got the man here?— N"o, he is not 
 here. 
 
 2657. How long had he been a brass caster 1 — I should 
 say from 20 to 30 years. I have one or two other cases 
 of accidents, but I will not trouble the Committee with 
 them. Those cases I have mentioned are all the cases 
 I have. 
 
 2658. {Professor Allbutt.) When you speak of catarrh 
 of the stomach, and blood poisoning, and lung troubles, 
 you are quoting medical statements, I suppose ! — Yes. 
 
 Mr. .John Ramsdew, called in and examined. 
 
 2659. {Chairman.) Are you Vice-President of the 
 Amalgamated Brass Workers' Society ?— Yes 
 
 2660. Have you been a brass caster for 45 years? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2661. At what age did you begin the work *?- Between 
 10 and 11. I have been nearer 46 than 45 years en- 
 
 ; in it. 
 
 2662. Then you must be fifty-six. years of age now ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2663. Will you tell the Committee whether you have 
 suffered from the effects of fumes or gases while engaged 
 in casting ?— Yes, I have. 
 
 2664. Have you been engaged in casting ingots, or- 
 simply at fittings 1— In sand. 
 
 '2665. Have you done both kinds of work or one only ? 
 One only, practically speaking. I have done a little of 
 the other work, but, practically speaking, I have been 
 enployed in the sand on steam and water fittings and 
 such like. 
 
 2666. When did you first of all, carrying your memory 
 back, suffer in any way from your work ? — As nearly as 
 possible, I should say it would be about thirty years 
 ago. 
 
 2667. That would be when you Were about 27 years of 
 age, would it?— Yes. 
 
 2668. You had then been some 15 years at the work?^- 
 Yes. 
 
 2669. What did you suffer from ?— Principally from 
 what we call the smother, or fumes. 
 
 2670. What did you feel?— A kind of shivering, 
 especially after I had been away for a time. If you" 
 ceased work cm the Saturday afternoon and started on the 
 Monday again, after being off a day or a day and a half, 
 or two days as the case might be, you would get it very 
 badly at night time. You would feel cold, and when you 
 got to bed you would be all in a sweat, and shivery. 
 
 2671. That would be on the Monday evening, would 
 t ?^Yes. 
 
 419 
 
 2672. What would you feel like on the Tuesdays- 
 Weak, and really not fit to work. 
 
 2673. Sometimes you went back to work on the Tues- 
 day, I suppose, after such an attack ? — Yes; the fact is I 
 I was compelled to ; but I used frequently to have io go 
 to the surgeons. 
 
 2674. How many times in a year did that happen in 
 those days ? — To be correct it would depend very largely 
 upon the weather, that is to say, if you had a damp, dull 
 day, and the shops were not so good as they are now, the 
 sulphur fumes would stay a great deal longer. On a 
 July day or an August day, when the weather was 
 brighter and drier, the fumes would clear out a little 
 sooner. 
 
 2675. Speaking of the time when you were between 
 twenty and thirty, how many days did you remain away 
 on an average, roughly speaking, during a year ?— 
 Eoughly speaking, I should say, I should be off a fort- 
 night. 
 
 2676. In single days ?— Yes, I would not always be off 
 on the Monday, but sometimes I would be away three 
 days. 
 
 2677. Was the fortnight made up of one day, two days, 
 three days, and so on ? — Yes, that would be patting it 
 low. If I said a month in days I should be more 
 accurate I think. 
 
 2678. Would that include some days when you did. 
 not go to work because you were feeling tired and took 
 a day off, as everybody does I suppose occasionally ? — Xo ; 
 I have just been one of those who can honestly say I 
 never took a day off in my life unless I was obliged 
 to. 
 
 2679. Except when you were really obliged to ?— That 
 is so. Both my late employer and my present employer 
 will testify to that. 
 
 2680. Then you went on, did you, with perhaps a fort- 
 night off in the year. Tor how many years did you go 
 steadily on up to tha present time ?— I went steadily on 
 till it got worse, 
 
 2681. At what age did it become worse 2—1 should say 
 when I was about 34 or 35. 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 Bamsden. 
 
82 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE : 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Samsden. 
 
 Vi Nov. 190G. 
 
 2682. What did you uffer from then ? — I got illnesses 
 of all kinds, and every medical gentleman I risited 
 advised me to lea\-e the trade. 
 
 268.3. Did they tell you what was the matter with 
 you 1 — They said it was the trade. 
 
 2684. That was the cause, but did they tell you what 
 the malady was which was produced by it 1 — Eheumatism 
 principally. 
 
 2685. What else ? — During the past four years I hava 
 gone as far as pneumonia. 
 
 2686. When you were about 30 years of age had any 
 pneumonia developed ? — No, it had not. Rheumatism 
 and influenza had because I had to come out into the 
 cold air. Doctors think* that you run out into the open 
 to get a breath of air, and they put down the pneumonia 
 to chills. 
 
 2687. Coming to a later age, what was the next stage. 
 From 37 on to 57, what did you suffer from. When did 
 the pneumonia begin ? — About five years ago. 
 
 . 2688. Did the doctors examine you ?^Ye3, 1 have been 
 examined all over plenty of times. 
 
 2689. Did they tell you it was pneumonia ? Did they 
 say anything else was the matter with you ? — I have had 
 ulcers on the bowels for a long time, for nearly 1.3 years 
 I should say. 
 
 2690. How many days' work do you think you have 
 lost of late years ? — I have not bee n out of the doctor's 
 hands during the last 12 years for three months at a 
 time. 
 
 2691. Are you still at work ? — I am still at work. 
 
 2692. How many days' work have you lost in the 
 last five years ; could you say 1 — I should lose about 
 six weeks during the year, putting ft very moder- 
 ately. 
 
 2693. And during that time you have drawn aick 
 pay from the society ?— Yes, I have drawn my sick 
 pay. 
 
 2694. You are already, "are not you, qualifiable for 
 superannuation ?—Tliat is so; I could declare on ths 
 superannuation fund to-morrow if I liked. 
 
 2695. But you do not want to do that as long as you . 
 have got work in you? — T be fact is, it is not enough 
 money. Five shillings a week is not enough to keep 
 me. 
 
 2696. You have determined to go on at all events till 
 you are worse before you claim superannuation ? — Yes. 
 By the bye I have been very cautious ! I am not a 
 total abstainer, but I have been very cautious ; that 
 is to say, I have gone [out to get as much fresh air as I 
 could. 
 
 2697. Can you tell us about any other men you have 
 known suffering from the same thing 1 — I have the 
 names of men who have been employed for a period of 
 16 years by my present firm, some of whom are dead 
 already. Eight poor fellows went to their graves and 
 only two of them reached 40. 
 
 2698. Out of how many employed ?-— An average of 16. 
 
 2699. At what ages, can you remember, did they 
 die 1 — Yes I can give you the ages. E. A. was 
 from 22 to 24 years old when he died. I think he was 
 consumptive if my memory serves me right. 
 
 2700. He probably had a touch of consumption 
 before he went into the trade even ? — It may be so ; 
 I did not know him before then. E. A. would be from 
 about 20 to 22. They were brothers. There is also 
 a brother belonging to the same family in one of the 
 hospitals suffering from blood poisoning who has not 
 reached 21, although the father is at work to-day and is 
 60 years of age. 
 
 2701. Yes, but what was the mother like, I wonder ? 
 — She was a very healthy wom.an apparently. Then 
 there is J. W., who worked under my superintendence, 
 and his age would be from 35 to 37. 
 
 2702. What were his symptoms like 1 — It was princi- 
 pally the sulphur he used to complain of and say the 
 trade did not suit him, 
 
 2703. Did he choke ; what were Ms b/mptoms 1 — Yes, 
 and cough very badly. Then there was T. B. who would 
 be about 37, F. J., about 38 or 39, and H. J., who would 
 be between 30 and 40. Then C. G. and T. P, were in 
 their 41st year. I went to the funerals of the three 
 latter, so that I know their ages correctly. 
 
 is a tendency to bronchitis, I understand 1—1 think so— 
 a tendency to bronchitis and asthma. 
 
 2705. Pulmonary disease ''—Yes. I may say that mj. 
 position in the society has brought me in contact with, 
 and I know more casters personally than anybody in tha 
 trade. 
 
 2706. {Chairman.) And you say, do you, that it is-. 
 bronchitis which they have all got!— Largely. It is a. 
 cough which seems to be in the jugular. 
 
 2707. (Professor Allbutt.) Asthmatic cough?— Yes 
 and not only in the Birmingham district. My dutie 
 call me all over the country; and I have been in casting 
 shops all over the country. Here is a small portion 
 of the fumes I gathered ye.sterday in my shop 
 {producing some). 
 
 2708. Are you able to say how much of the illness is 
 due to exposure and how much is due to the smother 
 itself?—! am not prepared to say. I have a photo here 
 taken of a man when the smother is at its full. 
 
 2709. {Chairman.) It seems to me that getting this 
 powder stuff into the lungs and making them cough is- 
 the cause of the mischief more than anything else?— 
 Yes, you are quite right. 
 
 2710. {Professor Allbutt.) Some of the symptoms 
 you have described are the symptoms of what is called! 
 brass founder's ague, are they not?— Yes ; we in rough 
 terms, as workmen, call it the shivers. 
 
 2711. That has not anything to do with bronchitis at . 
 all; That is a separate thing, is not it?— I am not quite- 
 certain about that. 
 
 2712. What do you think it is: do you think there is 
 some connection between the two? — Yes, I should rather- 
 think there was. 
 
 2713. Do you mean it lowers the constitution in some 
 way? — Yes, you get weak and more subject to illness,. 
 Those who work in the copper department do not suffer- 
 so much as we do. 
 
 2714. Do you mean smelting copper ? — Yes, for • 
 instance, there are copper castings. 
 
 2715. In copper smelting there are fumes, are there 
 not ? — Supposing I had to cast one of these bottles in 
 copper ; you cannot do it all in copper, but you put in a 
 little tin. There would be scarcely any fumes from that ; 
 but directly you come to the brass you put in a great 
 portion of spelter or zinc, which causes the smother. 
 You get 60 or 70 per cent, more fumes from brass. 
 
 2716. Can you draw any distinction between fumes, 
 that is to say volatile matter which might escape as 
 fumes, and these varying weights of dast ? — This dust,, 
 which I have here, is from brass, and I should like to -, 
 say this which I consider very, very important. Apart . 
 from the fumes themselves, in the ordinary casting 
 branches, there is the small work in the sand, you have 
 a bag of this kind, and you are constantly shaking flour 
 or brick dust or charcoal, so that you are choking the 
 lungs up as it were. That seems to affect the men a 
 great deal. 
 
 2717. What you call the red metal has more copper 
 in it 1— Yes. 
 
 2718. If you use this red metal with a small percent- 
 age of tin, you have none of these results, have you ? — 
 You do have a little, but very little. It would be 40 or 50 
 per cent, more in the case of brass. 
 
 2719. Is there in red metal smelting what I may call 
 invisible fumes that might affect anybody ?-Yes. 
 
 2720. But you do not think that of much importance, , 
 do you ?— They are not nearly of so much importance. 
 
 2721. Do you know the other witnesses who are here? 
 — I know most of them. 
 
 2722. Are tJtiey affected in the same way as you are ? — 
 There are some of the poor fellows who are here now 
 who ought to be m bed really. 
 
 2723. Are they all bronchial people, do you think ? — 
 Mostly so. 
 
 1724. Would that be their characteristic condition ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 2725. Would you allow us to examine your chest ?— - 
 With pleasure. My object is to tell the truth. I may 
 say I was always counted as being wretchedly ill, and 
 people used to say to me, " How ill you look," when as ■ 
 a matter of fact I felt well and was well. 
 
 2704 (Professm- Aubott.) Your evidente ig that there 2726. Is it tte neueral experience that brass casters.- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE 0* INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 83 
 
 "become sallow in complexion 1 — Yes, a great many of 
 them. 
 
 2727. But you think, do you, that that sallow com- 
 plexion is of no very great importance as an indication 
 •of health or disease J — I think it is of importance. 
 
 2728. {Chairman) Would you expect to find most of 
 the men you have known, who were ill, rather 
 pallid?— Yes. 
 
 2729. It is not a certain symptom but it is a guide to 
 you, is it ?— It is a good guide. 
 
 2730. {Professor Allbutt.) I thought you said you had 
 been quite well yourself when you looked ill ? — That was 
 as to myself, but as a rule you can generally tell a caster. 
 If you take me into any factory you like, and have the 
 men all washed and clean, I could pick out the casters 
 
 2731. But you would not go on to say that those people 
 -with the sallow faces were all necessarily ill, would you 1 
 — No, certainly not. I should like to add that there are 
 
 - a number of Societies, especially Societies of any standing, 
 who decline to take casters in, and those who do take 
 them in put them down at a lower rate. Hence we have 
 a number at our Trade Union offices, because they will 
 not have them elsewhere. I think I am speaking" 
 
 -correctly when I say that the Hearts of Oak, the 
 Oddfellows and Foresters, and the Ebenezer Society 
 in Birmingham, in which they have nearly 11,000 
 members, refuse to admit brass casters. 
 
 2732. {Chairman.) And some you say admit them, but 
 "Charge rather a higher rate of subscription, do they?— 
 
 No, they give them less money. 
 
 2733. What is your own society?— The Cannon 
 ; Street Male and Adult Provident Institution. 
 
 273i. What do you subscribe to that? — I wa? one of 
 -the fortunate ones. The average for brass casters used 
 to be 10s. per week, while many of the other men insure 
 for 14s., 16s., and 18s. 
 
 2735. But how much do you pay towards the society 1 
 — You pay according to the allowance you have out, 
 
 fbut they will not let the casters insure for so much as 
 the others. 
 
 2736. Taking your society, how much are you paying 
 
 per week at this moment ?— I am paying 3s. 4d. a Mr. J. 
 month. Bamsden. 
 
 2737. How much would you get in the case of _ being 30 Nov. 1906. 
 ill ?— 16s. a week. ' " , 
 
 2738. Is that less than you would get if you were in 
 one of the much more healthy branches, such as the 
 chasing or pattern making ? — No, in that society they 
 would not admit me to insure for 20s. a week. 
 
 2739. Does it come to this, that casting is considered 
 more dangerous in the proportion of 16s. ; to 20s. Do I 
 put it .right in that sort of way — do you follow my 
 question ?— Yes. 
 
 2740. Would you say, suppose two men subscribed 
 equally, it would be fair if one was a caster and the other 
 was a chaser, we wUl say, that the one should get 16s. a 
 week and the other should get 20s. ?- -As I have said, 
 mine was an exseptional case ; but the average would be 
 10s. for the caster and 16s. to 18s. for the chaser and 
 pattern maker. 
 
 2741. You would put the casting down as twice as 
 dangerous, would you? — They count it a mistake in 
 letting me insure for 16s. 
 
 2742. A brass caster, I suppose, ought to get better 
 wages than, say, a pattern maker or finisher perhaps, 
 because his occupation is more risKy I — He ought 
 to do. 
 
 2743. But does he as a fact ? — Not now. He used 
 to formerly but not now. 
 
 2744. Why is it changed ? — Because of the cheapness 
 of the method employed. Every pattern maker and 
 every employer wants to take out a bit more and put in 
 a bigger sand core, and, as the caste? is paid by weight, 
 his work does not weigh so heavy. 
 
 2745. So they are getting it out of the casters by light 
 shallow castings, are they ? — That is so. 
 
 2746. {Professor Allbutt.) With the great improve- 
 ment in the shops of late, is the prejudice against insur- 
 ing casters any less 1— The Societies have not relaxed 
 their rules. 
 
 2747. Do you think they are likely to do so now ? — I 
 do not know ; I should not care to express an opinion on 
 that point, because I have been on committees myself. 
 
 Me. Harry Smith, called in and examined. 
 
 2748. {Cbaimnan.) Are you an official of the Amalga- 
 mated Brass Workers' Union ? — I am a Trustee and 1 am 
 «,lso a member of the Sick Visiting Committee. 
 
 2749. Has it been your duty to visit in many cases 
 men who are going to receive or who are asking for 
 :sickpay? — That is so. 
 
 2750. What have you found those men suffering from 
 •as far as you could judge, not being a doctor— taking 
 ■oasters only?— From bronchial complaints generally— 
 •roughs, asthma, bronchitis, inflammation of the lungs, 
 
 and all those sorts of complaints. 
 
 2751. In addition to those I believe occasionally you, 
 .^et what is known as a sort of sick ague in men who 
 
 have been a short time in the trade ? — Yes. 
 
 2752. That is rather a different thing from bronchitis 
 is it not; that is a different complaint altogether?— Yes, 
 
 Sbut they put it down to the fumes— to the same 
 cause. 
 
 2753. But still the two things are different, are they 
 not ? The sickness, which is occasional, is different to 
 the cough and bronchitis, is it not?— Yes, it would be, 
 but at the same time they complain bitterly about th& 
 
 rsickness, and if it is not sickness they have always a 
 ■coughing, and find great difficulty in breathing. 
 
 2754. Do you consider that they live under more 
 dangerous conditions that the majority of the trade?— 
 Decidedly. 
 
 2755. Do you agree that, if you take the whole of 
 the members of the brass trade all round, it can 
 •hardly be said to be a dangerous occupation apart from 
 the casters?— As to the brass trade generally, I should 
 not go that far, but I have visite'd individuals who put 
 m gas fitting where they use white lead and they have 
 to suck the work to see whether it is sound enough, 
 -and I have come across several very bad cases of 
 blood poisoning. 
 
 419 
 
 2756. You would hardly call such men brass casters, 
 would you?— Not brass casters, but they are engaged 
 in brass manufacture. 
 
 2757. Do you mean there is another branch which 
 is dangerous, namely the fitters who are engaged in 
 screwing the fittings together with white and red 
 lead?— You see some of the fitters have to put their 
 own work together, and in putting it together they 
 use white aud red lead, and they have to suck the 
 work, which causes lead poisoning. 
 
 2758. If you omit those men and omit the casters, 
 would you agree that the brass trade generally, apart 
 from those two, could hardly be considered a very 
 dangerous trade ?— I should say not. 
 
 2759. But those two branches you do conside 
 distinctly sources of danger, do you ?— Yes. 
 
 2760. Is there anything else you would lilce to add ?— 
 I could mention one or two very bad cases amongst 
 casters who are not able to come here. 
 
 2761. They are representative cases I suppose; they 
 have the cough and you put it down as a bronchial 
 
 ' cough. You draw our attention also to lead cases ? -Yes. 
 
 2762. Those men ought certainly be prevented from 
 putting the ends of the pipes in their mouth.s, ought they 
 not ?— They should. 
 
 2763. A little sucking machine, surely with a foot 
 bellows would do the whole thing ?— Yes, but the manu- 
 facturers, as far as my experience goes, mil not go in for 
 those things for the sake of a pound or two. 
 
 2764. Has your Union, that has often pressed them 
 upon other points, ever determinedly pressed them upon 
 that one ?— I believe Mr. Davis has. 
 
 2765. But as a Union, you have never threatened to 
 strike unless they did it ?— No. 
 
 L 2 
 
 Smith. 
 
84. 
 
 JIIXUTES OF EVIDEXCE : 
 
 Mr. \V. Bakee, called in and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 Baker. 
 
 30 Nov. 1906. 
 
 27G6. (Chairman.) Are you a member of the Executive 
 of the Xatioual Society of Amalgamated Brass Workers ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 2767. Are you a brass caster yourself t — Yes. 
 
 2768. How many years have you been so 1 — 29 years. 
 
 2769. How old are you now ? — I am 42 years of age. 
 
 2770. You are not suffering from anything yourself, 
 are you 1 — Last year I had to go away for a fortnight to 
 Blackpool, because I got catarrh of the stomach. Dr. 
 Jessop said it was through my trade, and I was to go 
 away to get rid of it. He also asked me if I could get 
 out on the sea and get seasick. I did. I took a trip to 
 Ireland. I had beeu steady and saved money, and I took 
 the opportunity of going. 
 
 2771. Did that completely restoreyou? — Nojitis coming 
 on again. I had to go and see him the other night. I 
 have a taste of fish in my mouth now. I do not suffer 
 from agufe, but I suffer terribly in my head. I have 
 headaches for a month at a time. It goes off when I am 
 sCway from work on my holidays, but it comes on again 
 when I come back. 
 
 2772. Were you brass casting yesterday for instance '?— 
 I have been brass casting this morning. 
 
 2773. If you left off for a day or two would the taste 
 in your mouth go ? Is it produced by the zinc fumes ? — 
 Yes, and as soon as ever I poured I should have the taste 
 of it again. • My men in the shop suffer in a different 
 way to me. As soon as ever we have poured they say, 
 " I shall see them to-night." That means they will have 
 bad dreams. It is like having delirium tremens, and 
 there is the shivering, nothing will keep them warm ; 
 they suffer awf uUy with it. 
 
 2774. That form of suffering does not last very long, 
 does it ?— rlt lasts all night, and that is quite long enough, 
 
 2775. But there is another complaint said to be got. 
 I suppose, and that is the coughing ? — I can tell you of a 
 case of a man who worked at a shop here named E. 
 He was but 28, and he used to wear a sponge "round his 
 nose, and you would see when he had donejpouring the 
 white from the zinc would be all round it. He had been 
 there at work about eleven years when he^had'a^fit of 
 coughing and broke a blood-vessel. He had a long illness, 
 his place had to be filled up, and he went to work at 
 another ]ilace, where he broke another blood-vessel, and 
 repeatedly vomited blood for days after, and it 
 eventually killed him. He was only 28. I had another 
 caster working vsdth me at another shop, where we used 
 
 charcoal and flour, which got down into his stomach and' 
 corroded there, so that it formed a kind of ball at 
 the bottom of his stomach. He had a long illness. The^ 
 doctors tried to fetch it away by blistering his back, and 
 one thing and another, but they could not, and he broke- 
 a blood-vessel eventually and died. He was a teetotaler,, 
 the same as I am. 
 
 2776. He broke the blood-vessel through coughing, I 
 suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 2777. Do not you think that was due more to lung- 
 complaint ? — Well, you see he had dust on his lungs to 
 irritate him. There is a man on the funds, 55 years of 
 age, who suffers from breaking out and blood poisoning^ 
 which the doctor says is due to his trade. 
 
 2778. Do you mean when you say he has blood poison- 
 ing, lead poisoning, or do you know what it is 1 — It is 
 caused by his trade. 
 
 2779. But you do not know, do you, what the substanca- 
 is that has poisoned him 1 — No, but it is something which 
 is in the metal. I mix my own metal and I have to put 
 lead in it. 
 
 2780. But of course you must remember that metal 
 poisoning is one thing, and lung disease got by the dust 
 13 another and different thing ? — Yes, but there is a lot of 
 dust in a casting Shop. 
 
 2781. But they are different things, and when you say 
 blood poisoning, which do you mean I Do you know 1 — 
 If I were to cut my hand with gun metal, which is com-, 
 posed of copper, tin, and lead, and was not in good 
 condition, my hand would poison. 
 
 2782. Of course it would, but it would poison also if 
 you cut it with piece of bottle glass too ? — Not so muck 
 as when we get gun metal burns ; it is awkward for us 
 then. 
 
 2783. But burning is a different thing altogether; 
 burning produces results of its own. If you cut yourself' 
 with a piece of gun metal you may get a very bad place, 
 but you may get it also with a bit of bottle glass, may 
 ^'ou not 1. — I have never had my flesh take such bad ways 
 with glass as I have with metal. I regard cutting, 
 the flesh with metals, with copper, and zinc, and lead, in 
 them, as very dangerous, and I regard it as more danger- 
 ous than the dust. I have cut myself often with gun; 
 metal and other metal, and have had bad hands from it. 
 They have festered and matter has come from the- 
 wound. 
 
 TENTH DAY 
 
 Thursday, 6th December 1906 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Herbeet Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 
 Mr. Henry Ounynohame, C.B. 1 Mr. T. M. Legge, M.D. 
 
 Professor Clifford Allbutt, F.R.S I Mr. T. E. Bettany {Acting Secretary . 
 
 Mr. John Hedley, M.D., called in and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. 2784. {Chairman.) Are you a medical man in practice 
 
 HccUcy, M.D. in Middlesbrough 1 — Yes. 
 
 Dec. 1906. '2^^^- Have you been Mayor of the Borough ? — Yes 
 
 2786. Have you had experience for some years amongst 
 
 the men who work in the basic slag industry 1 — Yes. 
 
 2787. Do those men suffer from certain complaints 
 arising from their industry ? — That is a very difficult 
 question to answer, because the North-Eastern Steel 
 Works, for example, claim that the time lost by men 
 
 working in the basic slag mill is not anything like as-- 
 much as the time lost by the ordinary workers in the 
 steel works. I have had experience of slag dust men, 
 because, when they started to grind slag in 1886, 1 was 
 Surgeon of the North-Eastern Steel Works, and then 
 there is no doubt that the men complained of what ther 
 called a slag cough and would come to get a cough 
 mixture. They also said that that was preceded always 
 by a cold. The cold they attributed to the nature of thfr 
 employment. A mill is a draughty place, and there- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 85 
 
 ■was, in the earlier part of the industry, a veiry great deal 
 of dust floating about ; but apart from coughs and 
 bronchial ailments, we were unable to say that there 
 was anything else of a serious nature to which they were 
 liable. There were a few cases of pneumonia, but still 
 there was not a ver^^ great number of pneumonia cases 
 until what we called the great epidemic of 1888, when 
 Dr. Ballard came down from the Local Government 
 Board to make an inquiry into its cause. The mill was 
 burned down, and they erected a new mill, which was a 
 very much better one and which limited the dust very 
 much. Since that time the diseases attributable to 
 slag dust have not been anything like so bad or so 
 frequent. 
 
 2788. Do you think there is a disease which is clearly 
 attributable to slag dust 1—1 do not. Slag dust, as we see 
 it, is not very much worse than dust in the ordinary 
 occupations of all iron and steel workers, because every 
 iron and steel works is a very draughty place, and often 
 a very dusty place, but i do not think there is a much 
 greater proportion of chest affections amongst workers 
 in the slag mills than amongst those workip" in other 
 departments of the iron and steel works.' 
 
 2789. {Professor Allbutt.) — That is to say, certain 
 grinding dtists cause certain diseases, but it is not 
 especially slag dust that does it % — Quite so. 
 
 2790. {Chairman.) Are the complaints or diseases 
 which are caused by the dust distinguishable from 
 similar complaints among persons who are not working 
 in any of these industries? — The only difference I know is 
 that the men at the beginning complain of a cold, and 
 they all rather speak of a cold being the beginning of 
 their cough, if they have a cough. At the beginning they 
 expectorate a little dark coloured mucus, and then the 
 next day the mucus is whiter than an ordinary normal 
 mucus. The cold goes away with a little cough 
 mixture. They do not lose any time and then they are 
 all right again. It might help the Committee if I were 
 to repeat the evidence given to me by two men the night 
 before last at Middlesbrough. I got the North-Eastern 
 Steel Company to send the men to me. I had ex- 
 amined six men five years ago when I wrote an article 
 in the Dangerous Trades book edited by Dr. Oliver. 
 One of the men who came to me then was a man named 
 
 . He ■ is ■ 58, has worked at the slag 
 
 mills j[8 years, and he worked at the steel works four 
 years before that. He has been in fairly good health 
 during that time, but he had pneumonia in 1897. Then 
 it arose because he had got cold after sweating pro- 
 fusely — got cold on the Sunday, and took ill on the 
 following Saturday with pneumonia ; very bad for about 
 a week, and was back to work in two months. He said, 
 " Basic never affects me except when I get a bit of a 
 cold, and then I ge^; a bit of tightness at the chest." He 
 is now rather rough in the voice, due to cold, ,which laid 
 him off three days last week, then had bad headache and 
 tightness of chest with cough. He had pneumonia again in 
 1902, not very severe, off eight weeks. With these two 
 exceptions he has hardly been laid off at all, has lost no 
 time except those two times and the three days last 
 week ; chest measurement 37 inches on inspiration, 35 
 inches on expiration. Breath sounds rather accentuated, 
 and expiratory sound louder than usual ; no rales in 
 the front of the chest; slight crepitation round the 
 base of the chest ; voice rough from cold. Artery 
 at wrist shows slight general degeneration, slight 
 hardness ; heart's action regular and sounds normal, 
 feels strong and well and quite fit for work, now 
 that he is getting rid of the cold. I think he has 
 had influenza. Weight 11 stone 6 lbs. The next man I 
 
 questioned was named , aged 48, who is 
 
 employed in a very dusty part of the mill, where the 
 grinding begins and the dust comes right off. He has 
 worked at the mill 14 or 15 years. He says : " Have 
 had the best of health there, and all my life have never 
 been off work from ill-health all the 15 years, but I con- 
 fess to occasionally losing a little time when I get a drop 
 of^beer, but only a couple of days. I think we at the 
 mill are more subject to colds than many other work- 
 men, but it is due to the draughts through the place ; we 
 get hot, and then the draughts through the place cool us 
 quick and we get cold. When we have cold then the 
 basic catches us here " (putting his hand to the top of 
 his chest). " We make as much as 7s. a day, but we 
 have to keep ourselves well." He said he thought a 
 glass of rum in the course of the day was a good thiiig 
 ot keep them well. Then his remark is/" a good 
 constitutioned man who takes care of himself is all 
 right." Chest measurement 39 inches on inspiration 
 36 inches on expiration, well formed, muscular, sounds 
 of chest normal except that at the base low down 
 
 there is a little rough breathing. I think he would Mr J. 
 pass as a good ordinary life for insurance. Weight 11 stone Hedhy, m.d. 
 
 7 lbs. Arteries healthy. Of the other men whom r- 
 
 I examined five years ago, one was killed, one died of ^ ^^'^- 1906. 
 
 pneumonia, and the others left to work elsewhere. I 
 
 found also that the North-Eastern Steel Works employ 
 
 54 men at their slag mill; 18 men have worked there 
 
 over ten years, eight men from five to nine years ; 
 
 20 men from one to four years. Of the 54 men, 
 
 19 have lost time from illness — 17 once, and two twice. 
 
 Very little time is lost by them compared with the men 
 
 employed in the other parts of the works. That is 
 
 what they claim. The manager says, of course, it is a 
 
 nice job, with no hard work, and the men lose very little 
 
 time. 
 
 2791. I notice that in your article in Dr. Oliver's book 
 on Dangerous Trades, you quote the repart of a Superin- 
 tending Inspector of Factories in 1893, in which the 
 Superintending Inspector says of this dust :— " Being in 
 its nature extremely fine, it has a tendency, when inhaled, 
 ■to settle in the farthest ramifications of the air passages, 
 and to induce in the mucous membrane of these a chronic 
 state of irritation, thus rendering the larjmx and 
 bronchial tubes unduly susceptible of further mischief 
 should the subject take cold : and, in general, creating 
 a distinct predisposition to bronchitis and pneumonia. 
 Moreover, it is found that when pneumonia does super- 
 vene, a fatal result not unfrequently follows, with 
 unusual rapidity. But even in a case of complete 
 recovery, from an acute attack,! the patient will be 
 constantly liable to a recurrence of the same malady 
 as his breathing apparatus is continually undergoing 
 deterioration, so long as he is subject to the influence of 
 the dust." Do , you agree with that' Not entirely. 
 Was that Mr. Gould's report ? Perhaps you would quote 
 also Dr. Ballard's observations. 
 
 2791.^* Dr. Ballard says : "The slag dust to which the 
 epidemic had been attributed was not the cause of the 
 pneumonia, but that when from any cause pneumonia 
 becomes epidemic, persons largely exposed to the inhala- 
 tion of ,this dust may and do suffer more than persons 
 not so exposed, and that the disease with them is of high 
 fatality." Is that the passage you mean 1 — Yes. I think 
 that amongst men getting pneumonia who work in the 
 Islag dust the death rate would probably be a little higher, 
 -but we have no statistics about that. As a matter of 
 fact I think that Dr. Ballard found that the highest 
 death-rate was in one of the ship yards. 
 
 2792. There is nothing, is there, to distinguish the 
 pneumonia from which these workers suffer from pneu- 
 monia from which other people suffer ? — No. 
 
 2793. Is there anything to distinguish what is called 
 the basic slag cough from -other coughs'! — I think I 
 could distinguish it. It would be attended by greater 
 roughness of voice. The slag dust is very hea^vy, and I 
 think it becomes arrested about the mucous membrane 
 of the pharynx and larynx and Creates an irritation, 
 causing a roughness of the voice which lasts a little 
 longer, aiid is slightly of a different character to the 
 ordinary rough voice which some people get when they 
 ■have a cold. The men employed in the work nearly all 
 complain of their voices being rough. I have an analysis 
 ■of slag dust which I will give to the Committee. It 
 is as follows : Silica, 13.9 ; alumina, 5.92 ; ferrous 
 oxide, 8.6 ; ferric oxide), 4.3 ; lime, 45.2 ; phosphoric 
 acid, 13.21 ; magnesium oxide, 4.01 ; manganese oxide, 
 2.5 ; sulphur, .62 ; total, 98.26. 
 
 2794. Do you find any cases of men suffering from this 
 cough incapacitated thereby from work ?— No. 
 
 2795. Invariably is it all that is necessary that they 
 should have a cough mixture, and then they get over it 
 .unless pneumonia should supervene 1 — Yes, that is what 
 they say. "They hardly ever lose time from the • cough, 
 but they all confess to being rather fond of a glass of beer, 
 the job being a dusty one. 
 
 2796. Do you say that there has been a distinct- 
 decrease in this complaint since the North-Eastern Steel 
 Works Company erected their new mills, which are better 
 ventilated and equipped ?— Yes. 
 
 2797- Are there any other mills of the same kind in 
 the Middlesbrough district ?— There is a mill recently 
 Started at South Bank by Alexander Cross and Sods, 
 called the Cargo Fleet Mill. That is a very large shed, 
 and at one end of the shed is a mill where they grind by 
 means of a drum and steel balls. The material, having 
 gone through that process, comes out ground fine slag, 
 and runs in a continuous stream into a bag. That 
 brocessdo.es not give rise to so much dust as is found 
 in the North-Eastern Steel Works, where the slag comes 
 
86 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 N^f' ''" ^°*° ^ trough, and then a lever is pulled, and it all comes 
 Me aiey, m .d. down together, filling the bag, and causing a good deal 
 6 Dec. 1906 °^ '^^^^ *° escape from the bag. Still, the Cargo Fleet 
 — ! — ■ Mill is a dusty place, but it has only been running this 
 year. I questioned six men engaged in what I con- 
 sidered the dustiest part of the place, and none of them 
 would confess to anything ; they said it did not trouble 
 them at all. 
 
 2798. Are those the only two mills of the kind in the 
 neighbourhood ? — There is another belonging to Bolckow, 
 Vaughan, and Company, which is worked on the same 
 principle. I have not visited it recently, because I have 
 not had occasion to go there, and I had very little time 
 for doing so after receiving your invitation to give 
 evidence. It is pretty much the same kind of. mill, 
 and I telephoned to Dr. Glenn at Grangetown, who 
 attends most (j(f the men, and he said, while they were 
 rather subject to cougLs, he could not say they were 
 more subject to lung diseases than any others em- 
 ployed in steel works at South Bank. Dr. Steel, of South 
 Bank, however, thinks the workers in the slag mills are 
 more liable to bronchial affections than the generality 
 of iron and steel workers. 
 
 2799. {Mr. Gunynghame). I should like to draw your 
 attention to one or two of the paragraphs in your report 
 in Dr. Oliver's book. \ ou say : " With regard to the 
 causation of chest affections, there can be little doubt 
 that it produces increased action of the bronchial mucous 
 membrane, and consequent cough. But unless this is 
 accompanied by such influences as wet, cold, exposure, 
 or drink, there is no reason to think that it is the cause 
 of acute bronchitis." Does that still represent your 
 view 1 — ^Yes, I am still of that opinion. 
 
 2800. Again you say: "It will be seen from the 
 chemical analysis of the slag that there is nothing in it 
 of the nature of a poison 'such as to produce immediate 
 injurious consequences, beyond such effects as may be 
 traced to its mechanical action upon the bronchial tubes 
 and air cells." Is that your opinion still ? — Yes. 
 
 2801. You also say: "Inquiries have failed to elicit 
 that any undue proportion of slag workers have been 
 attacked by pneumonia." Is that true ? — I think that 
 is substantially true, but one could not say absolutely 
 without having more accurate statistics on the question. 
 Dr. Dingle, our Medical Officer of Health, failed in his 
 inquiries to find that the disease was more frequent 
 among slag workers than amongst others. 
 
 2802. You also say here : " Slag dust does not play 
 any prominent part in causing pneumonia." Does that 
 still express your opinion ? — Yes. 
 
 2803. Then in this report you point out the great 
 ■desirability of the use of respirators of some kind, do you 
 not ?— I do. 
 
 2804. And I suppose if you really could put a tolerably 
 perfect respirator on the men, and insist upon them 
 wearing it, which would be a difficult matter, that a large 
 portion even of the affections as to which you have given 
 evidence would disappear ? — I am sure it would, but no 
 one has ever supplied a proper respirator. Mr. Gould, 
 who made a very thorough investigation of the trade, 
 suggested a respirator which does not unfortunately 
 fulfil the requirements, that is to say, it is simply a 
 mouth and nose bag. Of course, as you know, in 
 expiration this cloth gets wet and the fine dust stops the 
 interspaces of the material, with the result that the men 
 cannot breathe, and you nearly always see them with 
 them hanging under their chins. They make a little 
 show of putting them on, but they really do not Wear 
 them. 
 
 2805. May I take it that you are unacquainted at 
 present with a really good respirator ?— Yes, I suggest 
 something of the sort at the end of the article to which 
 you have referred, but as I ceased to act as doctor to 
 the steel works I did not proceed with it. 
 
 2806. Then may I sum up your view in these words ': 
 that though the inhalation of the dust may be to some 
 extent a contributing cause of coughs, it is doubtful 
 whether it can be called a trade disease, and, if it is a 
 trade disease, it is one that is very preventable ? — Yes, I 
 think so ; that sums up my general view of the subject, 
 
 2807. {Professor Allbutt.) Have you seen any post- 
 mortem examinations of the lungs of men attacked by this 
 dust disease ? — During the epidemic of pneumonia I 
 saw, I think, two, but they did not present any difference 
 in appearance to those of other men who have died of 
 pneumonia. 
 
 2808. When you use the word pneumonia may I add 
 
 an adjective to it ; would it be what is called lobular 
 pneumonia ? — Yes. 
 
 2809. In pneumonia arising from dust you would 
 expect to find lobular or bronchial pneumonia? — Yes, 
 I think so, because if slag dust can be blamed for pneu- 
 monia at all, it would be more likely to cause bronchial 
 or lobular pneumonia than acute lobar pneumonia. The 
 former, being accompanied by bronchitis and of a patchy 
 nature, might be supposed to be an extension from the 
 tubes to the smaller lobules of the lung, and in that case 
 the dust might be the exciting cause. But I look upon 
 acute lobar pneumonia as a specific disease, and caused 
 by a bacillus in a similar way to enteric fever, and while 
 the nature of the occupation, with probably habits of 
 carelessness or intemperance, may diminish the power 
 of resistance and thus increase susceptibility, I cannot 
 look upon it as a cause of the disease. 
 
 2810. I suppose bacteriological examination has not 
 been made in these cases ? — Yes. 
 
 2811. This pneumonia is not confined to persons 
 working in the dust, is it ? — No. 
 
 2812. And the enhanced susceptibility of workers in 
 dust you think is a matter of speculation 1 — Yes, as a 
 matter of fact there was rather a curious thing hap- 
 pened, for almost coincident with the beginning of the 
 grinding of basic slag, or about 18 months after, we had 
 this outbreak of pneumonic fever, and there was a popular 
 idea that it was caused by basic slag. As I had a good 
 deal to do with public affairs, I moved in the council 
 for an inquiry by the Local Government Board. Dr. Bal- 
 lard came down and spent, I stould say, six months 
 there, and gave a very exhaustive and complete report, 
 with the result that he came to the conclusion that it 
 was an infective pneumonic fever, and in no way con- 
 nected with the dust of the place. 
 
 2813. When these men suffer from any transient 
 catarrh, do they not spit for a day or two dark-coloured 
 mucus ? — Yes. 
 
 2814. That is your experience of almost everybody 
 who lives in a dirty town ? — Yes, it is. 
 
 2815. And, as it clears off in the course of a day or two, 
 it arises presumably from the naso pharyngeal passages 
 only 1 — ^Yes, it does. 
 
 2816. And the hoarseness of voice is probably to be 
 attributed to some affection of the upper air passages ? — 
 Yes, I think it is ; I think it is a catarrhal affection of 
 the larynx produced by the irritation of the dust upon 
 the vocal chords. 
 
 2817. So that when these people fall ill with any 
 disease affecting their breathing, it may be attributable 
 only to a pharyngeal affection ? — Yes. 
 
 2818. Can you say whether after death the larynx has 
 been examined in these cases, and has been found to be 
 affected or altered ? — I could not say. 
 
 2819. In any of the cases which you have been good 
 enough to state to us was there emphysema ? — Xo. 
 
 2820. Would you not in dust diseases expect some 
 degree of emphysema ?— Yes, I should. 
 
 2821. {Dr. Legge.) I wish to quote to you some figures 
 that I have with regard to the incidence of respiratory 
 disease, and especially of pneumonia, among basic slag 
 workers^ and to ask you whether you think they point 
 to conditions of work very different from those in the 
 basic slag works around Middlesbrough. This is an 
 extract from a report made by Dr. Wutzdortf on 
 the basic slag works of Germany which appears in the 
 publications of the Imperial Health Office in 1897. In 
 1892, in 18 works 91-1 per cent, of the workers became 
 ill ; 56'4 per cent, of the cases were diseases of the 
 respiratory organs; there were 24 deaths, of which 19 
 were due to respiratory diseases. In 1893, in 21 works, 
 108-9 per cent, became ill ; 54-5 per cent, of the cases 
 were due to respiratory diseases ; there were 22 deaths, 
 of which 18 were due to respiratory diseases. In 1893, 
 in a single factory near Dusseldorf, with an average of 
 100 workers, there were 68 illnesses, involving 799 sick 
 days, and among them were 29 cases of bronchial 
 catarrh and 10 of pneumonia. If you could furnish 
 such figures as those, we should have been obliged to 
 recognise the disease as one which does affect the men 
 seriously ?— I did. I mentioned to you the number of 
 men who had been off. 
 
 2822. Are the men employed permanently ?— I asked 
 the manager to send me a list of the names of the men, 
 the length of the time they had worked, and the time 
 they had been off, which I can show yoii. It is rather 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 87 
 
 curious that that was such a favourable account that I 
 telephoned the manager of the works and said : " This 
 report of the number of men employed and the time they 
 have been off is far too rosy ; they will never believe it, 
 and it is outside my experience of workers generally." 
 Then he wrote me a letter and said : " I assure you it is 
 correct ; the particulars are taken from the books, and 
 80 far as I can make out it is quite true," but he said : 
 " Of course, there is no account of the accidents or the 
 deaths." I think there were four men who met vsith 
 accidents in the last two years. 
 
 2823. Do you know whether any of the deaths were 
 due to respiratory disease ? — I think some of them were. 
 The men themselves told me that some of their mates 
 had died of pneumonia 
 
 2824. Do you think the figures I have given can have 
 any relation to the condition of things in Middles- 
 brough 1 — I think not. I have here a letter which Mr. 
 Cooper, the manager, sent me when I pointed out that 
 it was such a good report. He says : " Dear Dr. Hedley, 
 with further reference to your letter of yesterda/s date 
 and to the letter I sent you, I have had this list very 
 carefully and exhaustively examined and checked, with 
 the result that it has been found to be quite correct, with 
 the exception that in four instances men have been off 
 on account of accidents, and these are not shown on the 
 list, neither have we shown where a man has lost a 
 quarter owing to drink. As regards the time the slag- 
 mill men have been off through illnesses, this list is 
 perfectly correct. However, to give you more detail, 
 I have had filled in the nature of the illness from which 
 each man suffered at the time. We have, of course, been 
 obliged to get this last information from the men them- 
 selves, not having kept any account of this. With 
 reference to ilie six men whom you examined in 1901, 
 
 viz., , the two last named we are sending 
 
 to you rsurgery at 5.30 to-night in accordance with 
 your request. Two others, , have left our em- 
 ploy ; I find on inquiry died of pneumonia 
 
 some time ago. as you know, was killed by 
 
 an accident last year. Regarding your suggestion 
 that the time given is too good, I would point out 
 that tlje time lost by men working at a place like 
 our slag mill is not to be compared with that of men 
 working at iron and steel works. The jobs in the slag 
 mill are about the softest that men could very well wish 
 for ; they are always under cover, and the work they 
 have to do is, compared with that of the iron and steel 
 worker, very light indeed. Of course, I cannot trace the 
 men who have died since they left us, because, as you 
 will readily understand, we lose sight of them as soon 
 as they are gone, and the list I sent you only represents 
 the men who are working at our slag mill at the pre- 
 sent time. Yours very truly, Frank W. Cooper."_ Then 
 I find there have been 10 cases of pneumonia which they 
 can account for out of those who were employed during 
 the last 18 years. Taking who has been em- 
 ployed 19 years, he had pneumonia 10 years ago, and I 
 
 6 Dec. 1906. 
 
 attended him myself. Then , who has been Mr. J. 
 
 employed there 14 years, has twice had pneumonia ; Hedley, m.d. 
 ——, employed 15 years, has had it twice. 
 
 2825. What are the symptoms from which the workers 
 in your district suffer ? — As a matter of fact the men in 
 our district all present rather exaggerated appearances 
 or sounds of the chest. I think almost without excep- 
 tion aU workers in metal of a pretty good age are a 
 little bit wheezy, and you find rather a loudish expira- 
 tory murmur even if there is no kind of wheeze. 
 
 2826. Would you say that pneumonia is prevalent 
 amongst the workers in iron and st:el works? — I can 
 only speak for our place. We have a very bad reputation 
 in Middlesbrough, and it is prevalent. 
 
 2827. Is it more prevalent, the dustier the nature 
 of the work ? — No, because a great number of the cases 
 are amongst women, and a great many of them occur in 
 
 , the same house as an original case of pneumonia. 
 
 2828. When the writer of that letter which you read 
 says he has to take the word of the workmen as to the 
 illnesses they have had, what is your experience as to 
 workmen's statements as to their own illnesses? — I 
 asked him if he took the accounts from the books or if 
 he asked the men, because the men are apt to forget 
 their ailments, and he said they were taken from the 
 books. My experience of men is that they rather readily 
 forget illnesses from slight ailments. 
 
 2829. Or if they thought they would lose their employ- 
 ment attribute them to some other cause ? — No, I do not 
 think that would influence the evidence of the men in 
 in our district. They are the most independent class 
 of people you can meet anywhere, and they can get a job 
 anywhere, generally speaking. 
 
 2830. {Professor AUbutt). Putting it generally, as your 
 experience has enlarged, and your information as to these 
 cases has been spread over a long time, and yoir have 
 seen more of the conditions of labour, is your opinion 
 rather modified in the direction of exculpating the dust 1 
 — Yes. 
 
 2831. You seem to have had formerly rather stronger . 
 opinions than you hold now ? — Yes ; but I am more and 
 more convinced that there is no very larg e proportion of 
 disease arising from the dust. 
 
 '^_ 2832. Has that been at all coincident, do you think, 
 with less intemperance amongst the men 1 — There is 
 decidedly less intemperance, and we find an improve- 
 ment in health. Our annual health bill is better than it 
 used to be, but still we have a very large number of men" 
 who indulge over the week ends. They make what 
 they call big money ; they will give their wives less than 
 is necessary to keep the house comfortably, and spend 
 the rest in drink. 
 
 2833. Is it not your experience that people who drink 
 too much beer or spirits are apt to get thick in the 
 voice? — Yes, it is certainly. 
 
 Mr. Charles Vincent Dingle, M.D., called in and examined. 
 
 2834. (Chairman.) Are you Medical Ofiicer of Health 
 of the County Borough of Middlesbrough ?. — Yes. 
 
 2835. Have you been there many years ?— Nine years. 
 
 2836. Have you had experience of workmen engaged 
 in the basic slag industry ?— Yes, to some extent, but 
 my experience has been more that of the statistics 
 relating to the town than that of personal observation 
 of the illnesses of the men, although I have had some qf 
 these men in hospital under nly care. 
 
 2837. Have you any statistics which show the degree 
 of prevalence of any specific kind of cough amongst these 
 workers ?— No ; I am afraid I cannot give any actual 
 statistics. The death returns that I receive from 
 the Eegistrar have not given the employment, and I 
 have not been able to separate the cases which have 
 occurred in the different trades. 
 
 2838. Have you any reason to think that any con- 
 siderable number of men lose time or are incapacitated ■ 
 from work by this cough. — Yes ; I am informed by the 
 doctor who i§. at present surgeon to the works, that he 
 is constantly d,ttending these men, but they are very 
 quickly better from the slag cough. 
 
 2839. Do they actually have to leave their work on 
 account of it 1 — For a day or two— they are off work 
 for a day or two. 
 
 2840. Do more serious .diseases often supervene, from 
 tills cough ? — No ; pneumonia may follow it, but only in 
 
 the same way as it might among workers after a •^'"- G. V. 
 bronchial cough. Dingle, m.d. 
 
 2841. Can the cough be distinguished as being a 
 specific kind of cough attributable to this dust ? — I have 
 had no personal experience of the cases of slag cough . 
 I only have the word of the doctor who has attended 
 such cases, and the impression he gave me, when he 
 was talking about it, was that he could distinguish 
 a slag cough from an ordinary bronchial cough. 
 
 2842. But in any case the cough would never 
 incapacitate a man for seven days or more, would it 1 — 
 No. His experience was that after they got some cough 
 mixture and had a good drink they were quickly better. 
 They seemed to think that alcohol helped to clear it 
 away very rapidly. 
 
 2843. Is there a great deal of pneumonia at Middles- 
 brough 1 — Yes ; a very great deal. 
 
 2844. Are there cases of pneumonia of a somewhat 
 different type to the ordinary pneumonia ? — Yes. Since I 
 have been Medical Ofiicer of Health there, we had an 
 epidemic- of pneumonia very similar to the epidemic of 
 1888, which Dr. Ballard investigated. It lasted over 
 the years 1899 and 1900, and in the year 1900 we had 
 no less than 543 deaths from pneumonia registered in 
 the Borough. It apparently was a more severe epidemic 
 than the one investigated by Dr. Ballard in 1888. 
 
 2845. He was of opinion that this pneumonia was not 
 
88 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. C. V. 
 Viiigle, M.D. 
 
 quite the same as ordinary pneumonia, and termed it 
 " Middlesbrough pneumonia," did not he t — "S es. 
 
 2846. Are you of opinion that it can be distinguished 
 or is different in type from other pneumonia 1 — I am 
 very strongly of opinion that there is a type of pneumonia 
 in iliddlesbrough which is very different to the ordinary 
 type. 
 
 2847. Does this pneumonia, do you think, attach 
 simply to the locality, or to certain trades in the 
 locality ? — It affects the whole population of the 
 Borough. 
 
 2848. Does it affect the whole population of the 
 Borough in equal degree 1 — It affects all districts in the 
 Borough, and I would almost go so far as to say that it 
 affects all classes in an equal degree. 
 
 2849. Then it is your opinion that it is distinctly a 
 local disease, and not in any sense an industrial disease? 
 — Yes, it is a local disease, though I may go a little 
 further and say I think the industries of the place have 
 something to do with it. 
 
 28.'i0, In what way 1 — I think most of the inhabitants 
 of Middlesbrough are exposed to the respiration of very 
 irritating air. At certain times, when the wind blows 
 from certain directions, the air of the town is full of grit. 
 
 2851. Is that from the slag heaps ? — I should take it, 
 to be from all the different works — from the blast fur- 
 naces, the forges, and from the many works which 
 have forced draught. There are given off sharp particles 
 of ironstone, sharp particles of coke dust and lime, 
 and other irritating materials, which on a foggy day, 
 with the wind blowing from the works, float over the 
 town, and you can feel them, and they often get into 
 your eyes, causing much smarting and pain. 
 
 2852. Do you think the men engaged in these in- 
 dustries suffer from respiratory diseases more than the 
 rest of the population of Middlesbrough 1 — No ; there is 
 no evidence of that at all. Of 187 cases of pneumonia 
 notified in 190U, 49 were females and 25 were young 
 males under 15 years of age. 
 
 2853. In particular with regard to the men engaged 
 in the basic slag industry, should you say there was any 
 specific disease 1 — No ; I have no evidence of it at all. 
 
 2854. Not even that they are more affected by the 
 ordinary pulmonary complaints 1 — No ; the ordinary 
 pulmonary complaints are excessively high in Middles- 
 brough. 
 
 2855. But not particularly high in any special trade 1 
 — No. it is almost as high among women and children as 
 amongst the male population. The men who suffer the 
 most were labourers, including dock labourers, and all 
 forms of outdoor work. 
 
 2856. Do you think that the basic slag workers are 
 specially liable to attacks of phthisis or any other 
 disease ? — No ; there is no evidence to all of that. I 
 made inquiries, but the medical officer to the works said 
 he knew of no other disease they were specially liable to 
 except the slag cough and pneumonia. 
 
 2857. (Mr. Cuni/nghame). A table has been handed in 
 by Dr. Hedley snowing the number of times various 
 persons employed at the North Eastern Works are laid 
 up through illness. Have you seen that table ? — Yes. 
 
 2658. I notice that there is a remarkably small number 
 of times that men have been laid up through illness. I 
 cannot quite reconcile it with your statement that there 
 are a good many cases of men being laid up 1 — That is a 
 statement made to me by the medical officer to the 
 works, and I think he referred more to the slag cough, 
 a disease to which they attribute little importance. 
 
 2859. Are we to take it that when the word "ill- 
 nesses" is used here it means only _ slag cough? — I 
 should say that it means more severe illnesses, and not 
 slag cough. 
 
 2860. With regard to the table furnished, what is 
 meant by the word " illness ? " It cannot represent the 
 illnesses -you have been speakiug of, which are numerous 
 can it ? — I take it that it refers to cases of men who 
 have been off work for some length of time. 
 
 2861. How long ?— Over a day or two ; there are many 
 men off a day or two days from alcoholic excess. , They 
 would not be mentioned in the table. 
 
 2862. Would a man who had been ill a day or two, 
 not from alcoholic excess, come into this table?— I 
 should doubt it. 
 
 which this table has been prepared. —That is a return 
 from the manager of the works. 
 
 2864. Does it mean a month's or a fortnight's illness ? 
 
 I should say it meant men who had been laid off 
 
 more than two or three days. 
 
 2865-7. Then it refers to cases which you are 1 
 alluding to in your evidence, does it?— K refers, 
 should say, only to illnesses from pneumonia. 
 
 (Dr. Hedley). May I say the men themselves have 
 said that there are very few cases indeed of slight 
 illnesses ; that they would have a little cough, go to the 
 doctor and get a cough mixture, and it was the rarest 
 exception for them to be off ? 
 
 (Mr. Cunynghame). But Dr. Dingle has told us 
 that there are many cases of short abstention from 
 work on account of cough ? 
 
 (Dr. Hedley.) I think Dr. Dingle is dealing with his 
 conversation with the doctor at the works. 
 
 (Mr. Cunynghame.) Then his opinion contradicts 
 the evidence which you have given here ? 
 
 (Dr. Hedley.) Yes, it does. 
 
 2868. (Mr. Cunynghame to witness.) There are two 
 assertions, one that there is a very small amount of 
 small illnesses, and the other is that there is a great 
 deal ? — 'The doctor to the works says that he frequently 
 attends men suffering from slight cough. 
 
 2869. (Professor Allhutt). Have you any information, 
 official or unofficial, from the men's representatives as to 
 their illnesses ? — Yes, I had a long talk with the foreman 
 of.the works. In these works many of the men work 
 on contract, and are engaged by the foreman, and not 
 by the manager of the works. I believe about half at 
 least of the men are engaged by the foreman and paid 
 by him. 
 
 2870. Is he a sort of ganger? — No, he is rather a 
 contractor. He tells me that he has worked at these 
 
 E articular works for 19 years, and has had pneumonia 
 imself once during that time. I asked him about the 
 illnesses amongst his men during the period of service 
 there, and he told me that altogether he thought 12 men 
 had died from pneumonia during the 19 years of which 
 he had cognisance. 
 
 2871. Out of how many men employed ? — The number 
 of men employed for some years was 40, but now there 
 are 55 altogether. I think he referred to the number 
 of deaths amongst his own men who would probably be 
 represented by an average of 30. 
 
 2872. Would you say from the conversations you have 
 had with persons who might be considered as officially 
 or unofficially representing the men, that the impression 
 given you would be much the same as that given 
 by conversations with managers and proprietors of 
 works ? — Yes ; both versions seem to me to agree. I 
 only know of one man who has worked in those mills 
 who has died this year. He died in the North Kidin 
 Infirmary in September. 
 
 2873. What was your experience before you went to 
 Middlesbrough ; was it in the North Eiding ? — I was at 
 various places in the South and abroad. 
 
 2874. Would you consider the district as one in 
 which respiratory diseases are somewhat over the aver- 
 age ?— Yes. 
 
 2875. Have you ever examined the dust from the 
 ledges and sills of private houses ? — Yes. The owners 
 of houses complain of the rapidity with which house 
 spouts become blocked up. 
 
 2876. Can you tell the Committee what that dust 
 consisted of ? — I have no chemical analysis of it, but 
 it is of a very gritty nature ; indeed, it is really like fine 
 sand. 
 
 2877. So that the dust, if it be a cause, is one opera- 
 ting over a large area of the city? — Over the whole 
 area. 
 
 2878. Would you expect to find special prevalence of 
 dust in the works ?— I think the greater part of the 
 dust misses the works and settle further away. 
 
 2879. Do you think the dust might be as effective 
 at a distance as in the works themselves ?^-Yes. 
 
 2880 In your opinion are persons living in a neigh- 
 bourhood with atmospheric conditions conducive to 
 diseases of the respiratory organs made still more 
 liable to them by the prevalence of this dust ?— Yes. 
 
 2863. Then how has the standard been laid down on 2881. In epidemic pneumonia, is not contagion under- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES, 
 
 89 
 
 stood to operate very largely t — Yea ; Dr. Ballard at- 
 tributes it to that. 
 
 2882. And the opinion of medical men from that time 
 onwards has been in favour of spread by contagion, has 
 not it ? — Yes, when the outbreak in 1899 and 1900 was 
 excessive, I got into communication with Dr. FuUerton, 
 the bacteriolo^st of the Middlesex Hospital, who made 
 certain investigations proving this. 
 
 2883-4. Generally speaking, would your experience be 
 that something highly suggestive of contagion vias at 
 work in these pneumonia epidemics ? — Yes, I think there 
 are distinctly two types of pneumonia in Middles- 
 brough. 
 
 2885. Would you not draw a distinction between 
 epidemic pneumonia and what we often call sporadic 
 or casual pneumonia ■? — Yes. 
 
 2886. So that we may put epidemic pneumonia on 
 one side, may we not ? — Yes. 
 
 2887. Then, do you think sporadic pneumonia is 
 higher in Middlesbrough than it is, say, in Saltburn, 
 Eedcar, Whitby, or anywhere along that coast ?— Yes, 
 I think so, 
 
 2888. Speaking generally, can you give the Committee 
 any information on the matter from the bacteriological 
 point of view? — In the epidemic pneumonia — referring 
 to the epidemic which occurred under my own observa- 
 tion in 1899 and 1900— Dr. Fullerton (and Dr. Klein 
 also confirmed him) made bacteriological examinations 
 of material which I sent to him, aad reported that the 
 bacillus present in the specimens of lung sent to hiia 
 proved to be identical in every way with what is re- 
 cognised as bacillus colicommunis- 
 
 2889. From what cases was the sputum taken 1 — 
 Pneumonia cases. 
 
 2890. In the epidemic form 1 — At that period it was 
 all epidemic form. 
 
 2890*. Then have returned to the epidemic form 1 — 
 Yes, at that time there seemed to be a wave of pneumonia 
 of one type, which attacked all the town. Dr. Fullerton 
 confirmed his examination by various experiments ; but, 
 unfortunately, from a scientific point of view, just when 
 we were getting some reliable knowledge, the epidemic 
 seemed suddenly to stop. That type of disease has 
 not appeared since 1900, and we have had the ordinary 
 type since. 
 
 2891. On the subject of tuberculosis ; is the prevalence 
 of tuberculosis high, or low, or medium 1 — It is not high 
 at all, and has not increased in proportion with the 
 population. It has remained stationary all the years I 
 have been there. 
 
 2892. Speaking from your experience generally, are 
 you prepared to recognise that there is a certain kind of 
 phthisis, the so-called, fibrous, which, in the first instance, 
 may not be tuberculous, but dependent upon the inhala- 
 tion of irritant particles — as in miners' phthisis, for 
 example ; and, although it may be complicated with 
 tubercle afterwards, is a somewhat different process, 
 so that by autopsy we can distinguish such cases ? — Yes. 
 
 2893. Do you think that kind of phthisis which is 
 originally fibrous is prevalent in your district 1 — No, it 
 is not prevalent. I occasionally receive returns, but 
 they are very rare, of deaths from fibroid phthisis. I 
 do not think, from the returns, they number more 
 than two or three in a year. 
 
 2894. And the phthisis which is primarily tuberculous 
 is generally an independent aflfection unconnected with 
 any previous preparation by dust ? — Yes, so far as the 
 death returns show. 
 
 2895. {Br. Legge.) Do the Census returns give the 
 population of basic slag workers in the district? — I 
 think not. As far as I remember, a good many of 
 these men are classed as labourers, although they are 
 working in connection with the slag mills. 
 
 2896. In the Eegistrar's certificate of death you 
 would not get the words " basic slag worker." ? — No. 
 
 2897. So that a number of cases of pneumonia might 
 occur among the basic slag workers 1 — Possibly, and we 
 are dependent on the statement of the men work- 
 
 ing, and the manager of the works, with regard to the Mr. C, V. 
 truth of these statistics. Dingle, m.d. 
 
 2898. You had two six monthly periods, I under- 6 Dec. 1906. 
 
 stand, in which pneumonia was a notifiable disease 1— 
 
 Yes, but we then only get the word " labourer " in the 
 certificate. 
 
 2899. But you followed up every case?— Yes, every 
 case was investigated, and of the 287 cases notified 
 I do not find any of them to have occurred in men en- 
 gaged at the slag mill. 
 
 2900. Their employment was known, I suppose?— 
 Yes, and the lists of employment are given in my 
 reports for 1899 and 1900 ; but those of course were only 
 cases which were notified ; I have no reason for sup- 
 posing they were all the cases which occurred. It 
 was an unsatisfactory result, because it was a purely 
 voluntary notification, and there was no insistence on 
 the cases being notified. I am quite sure we.did not get 
 probably more than half the cases at the time, judging 
 from the deaths which were being certified. 
 
 2901. Can'you give comparative figures for pneumonia 
 in Middlesbrough and the country generally?— I am afraid 
 not from memory. The death rate of the cases we 
 investigated was 36 and 37 per 100 during the years 
 1899 and 1900. The mortality from pneumonia in 
 Middlesbrough during the past five years averaged 3'2 
 per 1,000 population. 
 
 2902 {Chairman) : You quoted some statements that 
 had been made to you by the foreman at these basic 
 slag works. Had he anything to say with regard to the 
 slag cough?— No, he dii not say anything about that 
 to me. 
 
 2903. Had he any further facts dealing with this sub- 
 ject which he stated to you besides those you have alrrady 
 stated to us ? — He stated that many of the men had had 
 pneumonia at one time or other, but none of them lately ; 
 and he also said, as far as my memory serves me, thai; 
 the men who were most frequently ill were the young 
 hands just brought on, and these young hands were the 
 men employed by the works, not by him. ■ 
 
 2904. What would their illnesses be ? — The slag cough 
 I take it. 
 
 2905. So that when a man begins to work in a slag 
 mill he is more susceptible to the cough, is he ? — Yes, 
 and he afterwards gets immune to it. I have a man now 
 in hospital, sent in as a case of enteric fever. I did not 
 know he had worked in a slag mill at all until some 
 time after I had got notice of this inquiry. I examined 
 his lungs carefully on admission and came to the con- 
 clusion that he was not an enteric at all, but was suffering 
 from a type of pneumonia which we rather frequently 
 have. Afterwards I chanced to ask him where he worked, 
 and he told me he worked at the North Eastern Steel 
 Works, in the slag mill. Then I questioned him rather 
 closely about the slag mill, and he gave me an account 
 of an illness which he attributed to catching cold, and 
 he also gave me the name of another man who had been 
 ill and died, from pneumonia this year, which case I 
 traced to the North Fading Infirmary and obtained the 
 particulars of. He also said the men who perhaps got 
 the cough more than others were the men who loaded the 
 stuff, not the men engaged upon it in the mUl and the 
 warehouse, but who loaded the stuff either into vans, 
 which went round to the ships in the docks or to the 
 ships at their own wharves. 
 
 2906. Can the dust which is prevalent in Middles- 
 brough, and of which you have spoken, be regarded as 
 the result of combustion to any extent? — It is the 
 result of combustion under forced draught. 
 
 2907. Does it emerge from the chimneys and escape 
 from the blast furnaces ? — "Y es. 
 
 2908. And therefore would be just as much prevalent 
 in the air of the town as in the works from which it 
 came, would it ? — Yes, quite. 
 
 2909. That would not be quite the case to an equal 
 extent with regard to the dust in a slag mill, would it ? 
 — No, I do not think a large amount of dust from the 
 slag mill escapes into the air. The slag dust is very 
 heavy. The quantity is nothing as compared with the 
 other dust. _ My annual reports for the years 1899 and 
 1900 deal with pneumonia. 
 
 419 
 
 M 
 
90 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 ELEVENTH DAT. 
 
 Friday, 1th December 1906. 
 
 MEMBEE8 PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Henkt Cuntnohame, c.b. 
 Professor CLrproRD Allbtttt, r.E-o. 
 
 Mr. Hbrbeet Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 
 I Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 I Mr. T. E. Bettant {Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. J. S. Haldane, m.d., f.e.s., called in and exaimined'. 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 
 Saldane, 
 
 M.D., F.R.S. 
 
 7 DeTTgoe. 
 
 2910. {Chairman.) With regard to the question of 
 carbonic oxide poisoning, have you had experience of 
 several oases ? — Yes, a number of cases. 
 
 2911. How have they arisen? — I have seen a large 
 number of fatal oases, and non-fatal cases too, in con- 
 nection with colliery explosions, and fires both above 
 ground and in mines, and poisoning by ordinary 
 lighting gas, by the gases formed by blasting in mines, 
 by the products of combustion from internal combus- 
 tion engines, including petrol engines in submarines. 
 
 2912. Is the poisoning in those cases sudden or 
 gradual 1 — It all depends on the percentage of carbonic 
 oxide in the air. It may take a few minutes, or it 
 may take a couple of hours before severe symptoms 
 appear. 
 
 2913. Do you never get a case of a man who is 
 gradually poisoned, the poisoning extending over a 
 period of days, or weeks, or months ? — No ; I have 
 never seen any such case. 
 
 2914. Are these poisonings usually due to some ex- 
 plosion, or fire, or defective apparatus ? — ^Yes, certainly. 
 
 2915. Axe they not due to the men working continu- 
 ously in an atmosphere vitiated by this gas? — No, not 
 in my experience. The symiptoms are fairly acute at 
 the time, though I have no doubt that a man who was 
 repeatedly exposed to a moderate percentage, sufficient 
 to produce slight symptoms each day, would suffer in 
 the end in health. 
 
 2916. What class of workers would be subject to con- 
 ditions of that kind 1 — I think a very large class of all 
 sorts of workers might be affected by the products of 
 combustion from engines and from gas used in internal 
 combustion engines, smoke, and so on. 
 
 2917. Have you come across in your experience any 
 cases of men who have become ill by working in an 
 atmosphere vitiated by carbonic acid gas during a 
 period of weeks or months ? — No, I have not come 
 across any such case that I can remember. 
 
 2918. On the underground railways in London, before 
 electrification was introduced, was the atmosphere 
 there vitiated by carbonic oxide? — Yes, there was 
 always carbonic oxide present in the air in appreciable 
 quantities. There was about one volume of carbonic 
 oxide for every twelv.e of carbonic acid gas, and fre- 
 quently there were 50 or 60 or 70 volumes of carbonic 
 acid gas in the air per 10,000. 
 
 2919. I think you were a member of the Depart- 
 mental Committee on the Ventilation of Railways? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2920. Did you make a careful analysis of the air in 
 that connection ? — Yes ; I analysed the air myself. 
 
 2921. Did you find that there was any gradual poison- 
 ing among the men employed on the railway ? — No, we 
 could get no evidence of it. We went into the matter 
 very carefully, and examined a number of the men 
 employed on the railway personally, and questioned 
 them on the subject. We 'also went into the statistics 
 of their benefit societies, and found that their health 
 was extremely good. 
 
 2922. Do I understand your view to be that, while it 
 is possible men might suffer from gradual poisoning, 
 extending over a prolonged period, through working in 
 
 an atmosphere vitiated with CO. gas, as a matter of 
 fact that is not known to occur ? — I think we may say 
 that it is not known to occur unless the amount of 
 carbonic oxide is suificient at the time to produce dis- 
 tinct symptoms. 
 
 2923. With regard to the cases which are known of 
 what I may call sudden poisoning, are those oases 
 really in the nature of accidents ? — I should class them 
 as accidents. There is one form of poisoning which is 
 sometimes called carbonic oxide-poisoning, that is 
 poisoning by nickel carbonyl. There a man may 
 gradually absorb sufficient of the poison to cause his 
 death after a few days. 
 
 2924. What is nickel carbonyl ?— That is the gas 
 used in the Mond process for separating the nickel. 
 
 2925. The carbonic oxide gas is a factor, is it not, in 
 explosions in mines? — Yes, it is the cause of death in 
 nearly all the cases of men killed in mine explosions. 
 
 2926. That, of course, is obviously .accident is it not ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2927. And similarly all the other cases of sudden 
 poisoning by this gas should be classed as accidents, I 
 suppose? — I think so. 
 
 2928. Therefore are not they really outside the pur- 
 view of this Committee ? — I thiiik so. 
 
 2929. With regard to nickel carbonyl ; in what in- 
 dustries does the poisoning, it ever, occur? — That 
 occurs in the separation of nickel from its ores by 
 the Mond process. The nickel is taken up in a gase- 
 ous form by the carbonic oxide, and deposited as pure 
 nickel when the temperature of the gas is raised at the 
 other end of the pipe. 
 
 2930. Is the poisoning in that case more gradual than 
 in the case of carbonic oxide poisoning? — ^Yes, the 
 evidence from cases which have been observed, is that 
 a m,an has died perhaps some days after ceasing to 
 work. The poisoning, I think, is undoubtedly due to 
 the metal nickel and not to the carbonic oxide. 
 
 2931. Is this poisoniijg of a gradual nature ? Would 
 it be possible for a man on the first day that he worked 
 in these works to get poisoned, or would it be necessary 
 for him to have been employed some time and gradu- 
 ally have got impregnated, so to speak? — ^I do not 
 think the evidence is sufficient to enable one to say ; 
 but there seems to be no difficulty in recognising these 
 cases. Only a very few cases, three or four I thinii, 
 have been recorded, and very great care is now taken 
 to prevent that form of poisoning. 
 
 2932. Can it be diagnosed with certainty ?— I think it 
 can be diagnosed from the circumstances. The first 
 case, of course, was a great surprise. The very dangei- 
 ous properties of the gas were not realised at first. 
 
 2933. Do you think that is or is not in the BAture 
 of an accident ?— I should class it as an accident. 
 
 2934. Would you say it was due to some defect in the 
 apparatus ? — ^Yes, certainly — a leaky pipe. 
 
 2935. Would it arise in the normal course of em- 
 ployment aslead poisoning, for instance, might arise! 
 —I think it is hard to draw the line. I think you may 
 say that all lead poisoning is due to some defect in the 
 process or the method of manipulating the material. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 91 
 
 It is quite possible to work with the utmost safety in 
 lead, so long as suitable precautions are taken, and the 
 same thing applies to nickel oarbonyl. 
 
 2936. {Professor Allhuft.) There is very little diflei- 
 ence between the slow accumulation of a gas acting 
 over a long time, and escape from a leaky pipe, I 
 suppose ? — The nickel carbonyl symptoms do not come 
 on for several days after a m,an has ceased to work. 
 He gets worse and worse during these days, and may 
 get very bad after three or four days, and die unex- 
 pectedly. 
 
 2937. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Your view, I take it, to 
 sum it up, is that, so far as carbonic oxide is con- 
 cerned, the compensation to the workman would cOme 
 in under the head of accident, and it is not necessary 
 to go further than that ? — I think so, on the clear 
 understanding that carbonic oxide may in exceptional 
 cases permanently disable a man. 
 
 2938. An accident might permanently disable him, 
 but it would be generally expected, would it not, that 
 a given case of carbonic oxide poisoning could be made 
 out under the head of accident?^ — Yes, a clear case, I 
 should think. 
 
 2939. Then as to nickel carbonyl, may I take it, in 
 the majority of cases, at all events, that the poisoning 
 would come under the head of " accident " too ? — I 
 think so. 
 
 2940. Is it possible that nickel carbonyl might pro- 
 duce a gradual illness of the nature of a disease, and 
 which could not be called an accident, or may I take 
 it that you think there is no evidence of that at pre- 
 sent ? — No, there have been so very few cases of it, and 
 the company which uses the process has taken such 
 very great care in investigating it and preventing it. 
 
 2941. So that it may be considered as not proven, 
 at all events, at present ? — I think so. 
 
 2942. {Professor AllbuH.) I suppose an accident 
 may be defined as an occurrence on a certain date 
 and at a certain place? — Yes. I think that would 
 apply to cases of carbonic oxide poisoning, but I am 
 not sure. I think probably the effects of nickel car- 
 bonyl poisoning are cumulative tiver several days. The 
 probability is if a man absorbs a small amount of 
 nickel carbonyl for several daysi in succession the 
 effects ultimately produced might be fatal. 
 
 2943. Does such a slow exposure to the poison 
 actually occur in fact? — I am afraid very little is 
 known as to that. What I said was based only on the 
 a priori probability that nickel is a substance which 
 is very likely to be absorbed in some quantities, to 
 accumulate in the tissues, and gradually produce 
 effects just like lead poisoning. The process is that 
 carbonic oxide is passed over the nickel ore at a cer- 
 tain temperatiire, and it combines with the nickel as 
 carbonyl, which is a volatile substance. That is carried 
 along a pipe and heated up when the compound is 
 dissociated. 
 
 2944. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is it used for plating 
 goods? — It is used for separating the nickel, but not 
 for plating, as far as I know. 
 
 2945. (Professor Alllnitt.) 1 see you state in the precis 
 of your evidence that " It is seldom that non-fata] 
 cases of carbonic oxide poisoning are diagnosed from an 
 examination of the blood, since carbonic oxide rapidly 
 escapes from the blood when fresh air is breathed." 
 That is a rather more encouraging view than physio- 
 logists have sometimes taken, is it not? — Yes, it is 
 usually nearly all away within three or four hours. 
 
 294^. It has been alleged, has not it, that it clings 
 pertinaciously to the blood ? — Yes, certainly ; there 
 was a very exaggerated idea as to the intensity with 
 which it clings to the blood. 
 
 2947. Then you go on to say that " Repeated poison- 
 ing with carbonic oxide would doubtless tell on a man's 
 general health, but I have never had any opportunity 
 of observing such a case." Is "doubtless" an adverb 
 which you would like to withdraw? — I think "pro- 
 bably " would be better. 
 
 2948. Then your precis proceeds, " In other cases 
 there are symptoms of dilatation of the heart, and 
 these symptoms may also list for a long time." This, 
 I think, is a very important matter, and I should like 
 you to tell ■ us what you know about it ? — I have 
 observed cases in which a man, after having been 
 partially poisoned by carbonic oxide, has had for 
 weeks and months symptoms similar to those of heart 
 disease. 
 
 419 
 
 2949. Nevertheless, would it still belong to the cate- 
 gory of accidents, do you think? — I think so, because 
 it is distinctly attributable to a certain exposura. I 
 think these cases recover completely. 
 
 2950. But whether they do or not, you consider it 
 part of the consequences of an accident, do you? — 
 Yes ; and similarly in cases where mental derange- 
 ment has followed. 
 
 2951. (Dr. Legge.) With regard to nickel carbonyl, 
 do you know in how many factories the process is used 1 
 — I am afraid not. I only know of its being used by 
 the Mond Company. 
 
 2952. Have you been over the factory? — No, I have 
 not. 
 
 2953. Do you know whether the accidents occur singly 
 or in groups in connection with it ? — I think the cases 
 up to now have occurred singly as far as I remember. 
 
 2954. Do you know whether it was due to the break- 
 down of automatic plant or not. Did the poisoning 
 only occur when hand labour was adopted on the break- 
 down of automatic machinery? — I am afraid I do not 
 know the details. 
 
 2955. Do you know whether any case has been re- 
 ported within the last three years? — ;1 have heard of 
 no cases. 
 
 2956. Would you have been, likely to have heard of 
 them if such cases had occurred?— -I think I should. 
 
 2957. You mentioned the care the firm took. Do 
 you know what the precautions which are taken are ?^ 
 I believe they have taken very great care to thoroughly 
 ventilate any pipe or joint which might possibly leak. 
 
 2958. By mechanical means? — I believe so. 
 
 2959. With regard to carbonic oxide, is the number of 
 gas plants, to your knowledge, increasing in factories ? 
 — Very largely, I should say. 
 
 2960. Is it in connection with such plants that one 
 might expect gradual poisoning to take place? — I 
 think so, if there is a leakage of that gas, or a leakage 
 of the products of combustion. 
 
 2961. ■ So that one has to apprehend a possible in- 
 crease in the number of carbonic oxide poisoning 
 cases ? — I think so. I think it must be regarded as a 
 very common occurrence. 
 
 2952. Would you bo likely to be called in in cases 
 where the poisoning is very gradual, and where the 
 symptoms are cumulative? — I think I should be very 
 likely to hear of cases of that sort, at any rate in con- 
 nection with mines, or in connection with submarines, 
 for instance. There has been great trouble with car- 
 bonic oxide in connection with stabmarines. 
 
 2963. Have you heard of cases of paralysis developed 
 as the result of carbonic oxide poisoning not showing 
 itself for some time ? — I have never heard of any cases 
 of paralysis developing as the result of very gradual 
 carbonic oxide poisoning. 
 
 2964. If you knew that such cases had been recorded 
 by, for instance. Dr. Judson Bury, of the Royal In- 
 firmary, Manchester, would you accept the opinion 
 expressed by him as to the causation of paralysis ? — I 
 am afraid I have not seen these cases, and I do not 
 know what the evidence is on which he bases his 
 opinion. 
 
 2965. If there were such cases as that form of 
 paralysis, would it be sufficient then to record it merely 
 as the result of an accident ? — I do not think it would. 
 Carbonic oxide must act as a predisposing cause in 
 these cases if they exist. 
 
 2966. It would make assurance doubly sure, would 
 it not, if carbonic oxide were included in the schedule ? 
 Do you see any objection to include it in the schedule? 
 —■I see no objection, but I cannot say from my own 
 personal experience that I see any special reason for 
 including it. 
 
 2967. Do you say with regard to what is described 
 in books as chronic carbonic oxide poisoning there is 
 not sufficient evidence to enable you to say w'hether 
 you agree with the statements or not ? — The statements 
 which I have seen in books on the subject seem to me 
 to be based on very insufficient evidence. 
 
 2968. I see it is stated by Dr. Oliver in Professor Clif- 
 ford Allbutt's " System of Medicine " that 100 cubic 
 centimetres of nickel carbonyl will give off 73-6 litres 
 of carbon monoxide. This circumstance and the post- 
 mortem appearances just mentioned lend considerable 
 weight to the opinion that in nickel carbonyl poisoning 
 
 M 2 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Haldane, 
 
 M.D.,F.R,S. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
92 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Haidane, 
 
 M.D., F.K.S. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
 the symptoms are due to carlxin monoxide. On this 
 point the last word has not yet been spoken." May 
 I take it that you disagree with that 1 — Absolutely. I 
 ajii perfectly sure it is not so. I have experimenited 
 with it myself. 
 
 2969. Can you describe what the peculiar symptoms 
 which the men Buffer from are, and what is the main 
 characteristic? — I •axti afraid I have not the details of 
 cases in my head just now, and I should not like to 
 say ; but they are nervous symptoms. 
 
 2970. Are they respiratory at all ? — Yes ; I believe 
 there are respiratory symptoms towards the end, but 
 the characteristic fealture of them has been that the 
 symptoms have not developed to a serious extent — at 
 any rate, until perhaps days after the man has left 
 his work, whereas in the case of carbonic oxide poison- 
 ing the symptoms tend to decrease after the poisoning. 
 
 2971. When you say that the symptoms tend to in- 
 crease, do you refer to the oases which prove fatal ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2972. You do not say that all nickel oaribonyl poison- 
 ing is fatal ? — No ; but I am convinced myself 
 that it is an extremely poisonous substance from ex- 
 periments on animals, and when severe symptoms were 
 produced in the animals there was no change in the 
 blood indicating absorption of a sufficient amount of 
 carbonic oxide to produce' any symptoms at all. There 
 was very little carbonic oxide in the blood, so little 
 that it had nothing to do with the symptoms. 
 
 2973. (Professor Allbutt.) You state in your precis of 
 evidence : " I do not think, however, that the repeated 
 breaching, day after day, of a very small percentage, 
 not sufficient to produce symptoms on any one day, has 
 been shown to cause definite harm, or would be likely 
 to do so." Is that your opinion? — Yes, it is. 
 
 2974. (Chairman.) We will turn now to caisson 
 disease. Have you had very consideraJble experience 
 of that? — ^I have gone into the matter very carefully 
 recently for the Admiralty in connection with diving. 
 I cannot say I have seen many cases of caisson disease, 
 but I Jiave investigated it experimentally along .with 
 Dr. Boycc^t, and have gone into the records of cases of 
 all sorts. 
 
 2975. Do you agree with the theory that the cause of 
 this illness is bubbles of nitrogen gas in the blood and 
 tissues? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 2976. This also might possibly be considered to be 
 accidental, I suppose ? — ^I think so. 
 
 2977. Because if decompression is gradual then the 
 symptoms need never occur? — They need never occur. 
 
 2978. And can never occur? — ^If the decompression 
 is very much more gradual than in common practice. 
 
 2979. Can you always say that a man has contracted 
 this illness at a given time? — Yes. 
 
 2980. Is there no element of graduality in it? — No, 
 I think not. 
 
 2981. A m-an, I suppose, might be just as liable to 
 ■contract the disease the first day he went down in a 
 caisson as if he had been doing it for 10 years? — I 
 think so, but some people do not think the same about 
 it. 
 
 2982. What is the other view? — The other view is 
 that a man does, to a certain extent, get used to it. I 
 do not think there is any satisfactory evidence of this. 
 
 2983. (Professor Allbutt.) Vhait would be affirmative 
 as far as it went, I suppose ? — Yes, I suppose so. 
 
 2984. (Chairman.) Do the symptoms appear imme- 
 diately the man comes into the ordinary atmosphere ? 
 — Usually within half an hour, but sometimes it is 
 several hours before the symjptoms appear. 
 
 2985. Have a number of fatal cases occurred ? — ^Yes ; 
 and a number of oases of paralysis, which is some- 
 tiines permanent, but which usually passes oft. There 
 is, however, a graduation of caset. 
 
 2986. Are there cases of blindness and all kinds of 
 other symptoms? — Yes, occasional cases. 
 
 2987. Could it be stated with certainty that those 
 symptoms were due to caisson disease if you knew the 
 ftian had been working in that employment ? — I think 
 so. The only difficulty is when a man is taken ill with 
 some other illness about the- time or during the time 
 wten he is working in a caisson. Supposing he gets 
 an attack of some other illness, it is occasionally put 
 down to caisson disease, and perhaps there is then a 
 difficulty in determining whether the working in the 
 
 compressed air has anything to do with the illness or 
 not. Thait, however, is a difficulty wihidh I think, might 
 occur in any medical case. It is the sort of difficulty 
 whioh is common in medicine. 
 
 •29S8. Are the workers iif caissons liable to CO. 
 poisoning ? — Occasionally it happens. If there is a fire 
 in the caisson, or in a tunnel which is being constructed 
 with the heip of compressed air, it is extremely dan- 
 gerous. Things bum with greai rapidity in com- 
 pressed air, and a very small fire might easily have 
 extremely bad effects, and occasionally cases of poison- 
 ing by smoke — ^that is to say, by carbonic oxide, have 
 occurred. 
 
 2989. Would the cause of that always be distinguish- 
 able? — Those cases would be distiniguishable, but I 
 think it is very .probable that the s.ymptoms of caisson 
 disease have occasionally been confounded with those 
 of carbonic oxide, due to imperfect combustion in the 
 compressed air and insufficient ventilation. 
 
 2990. But after all no great harm would be done 
 supposing a iman were diagnosed as suffering from 
 caisson dis€.ase, and he had been really suffering from 
 carbonic oxide poisoning, when, as a matter of fact, 
 either would be the result of his employment ?— No. 
 
 2991. Are the workers in compressed air very liable 
 to other complaints, such as injury to the ear, which 
 are of a different nature from those illnesses, and 
 injuries caused by the bubbles in the body ? — Yes ; 
 those injuries are due to mechanical pressure. 
 
 2992. What are the symptoms ? — ^Pain in the ear, or 
 deafness. 
 
 2993. Does that incapacitate a man from working? 
 — He may have got inflamimation of the ear, which is 
 occasionally fatal when it extends to the brain. 
 
 2994. Which, is distinctly due to his employment? 
 —Yes. 
 
 2995. That, of course, is not, is it, in the nature of 
 an accident? — I should say it was myself. 
 
 2996. Would it be due to an accidental excess of 
 pressure, or anything of that kind ? — No, but it is very 
 often due to the man going into the compressed air, 
 and having, say, a cold in the head which produces 
 slight catarrh. If the tube between the throat and the 
 ear is blocked, the onan cannot stand the compressed 
 air. 
 
 2997. Then would the accident consist in the man 
 being subject to compressed air at the time the 
 Eustachian tube was blocked ? — Yes ; or a man vcho is 
 not ascustomed to going into the compressed air, if he 
 goes into it for the first time, is liable to injury to the 
 ears, because he does not know how to open his 
 Eustachian tubes. 
 
 2998. Suppose these diseases were scheduled under 
 the name of caisson disease, would that be completely 
 understood by a court of law, which had to interpret 
 the Statute, or would such a term as " compressed air 
 illness " be better, do you think ? — I do not think it 
 much matters myself. 
 
 2999. Might not it be held that a man who, for in- 
 stance, suffered when he was engaged in conducting 
 operations as a diver, and not in a caisson, could 
 hardly be said to be suffering from caisson disease? — 
 The term is applied to illness in divers also. 
 
 3000. Would it cover the injury to the ear which you 
 have been discussing ?— I think that is perhaps rather 
 a doubtful point. You see, ear injuries are due to a 
 different cause from the others. 
 
 3001. By caisson disease would you mean any 
 symptoms that arose from nitrogen bubbles in the blood 
 or tissues due to working in compressed air ? — I think 
 many writers would also include the ear troubles— 
 they are always described along with the others. It 
 is a doubtful point, and perhaps " compressed air ill- 
 ness ' would be a more comprehensive term, and would 
 leave no doubt. 
 
 3002. Ajid would certainly, would it not, cover the 
 ear troubles? — I thank so. 
 
 3003 How could the eaa: troubles be shortly de- 
 scriil^d s.upposing we wished to bring them into the 
 schedule specifically?— I should say as injury to the 
 ears. ■" ■' 
 
 3004. Due to working in comp.ressed air?— Yes, due 
 to compressed air. 
 
 3005. (Mr. Cunynghame.) The answers you have 
 given with regard to injury U> the ears rather seemed 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 93 
 
 .-to me to lead to putting that down as an accident, too. 
 Is. that so or not ? I mean, by an accident a thing oc- 
 curring oji one occasion, and not the result of a great 
 .imany operations. Would.the injury to the ear be the 
 result ol a man on ooio occasion going into a caisson 
 -and having something happen to Mm which was ratiier 
 uiiexpected, or irfight it he the result of going in 20 
 .times ?— No, certainly not ; it wonld be the result or 
 -one' action. As a general rule, a man who goes into 
 -compressed air gets to know how to manage his ears 
 .and escapes the troubles. 
 
 3006. Then your -view is really, is it, tiiat it is an 
 .adcident if it occurs on one occasion ? — It is an accident, 
 .bait very often oomplioated by secondlary infection. If 
 
 the injured part of the ear gets secondarily infected, 
 .the results may be very .serioius. 
 
 3007. (Chairman.) In the same wiay as a man might 
 .cut his hand, which is an accident, and might get blood 
 jKiisoning afterwards. ?— Yes ; that would be held to be 
 -the result of the accident. 
 
 3006. If the 'Committee were to treat as an accident 
 a thing that occurs on some definite occasion, even 
 though the results, it produces may arise gradually 
 -afterwards, should you say that injury to the ears waa 
 an accident or a disease ? — ^An accident, I think. 
 
 3009. So that pa-obably it would be covered by the 
 accident clause in the A'ct already, you think? — I 
 think SO'. 
 
 3010. (Professor Allhutt.) From the medical point of 
 view might there be in one case injury on a certain day 
 and time, and in another what one might call an over- 
 stress of the parts of the ear, lasting very many days or 
 weeks or months. I mean, do you think the injury to 
 the ear is brought about from strain on one particular 
 •occasion when the ear was stressed beyond its capacity 
 for immediate repair, or do you think it is, or may be, 
 an effect of cumulative stresses ? — I think the 
 symptoms are due to exposure on one particular day. 
 Repeated exposure has no bad effect on a man as far 
 as is known. I think there is nothing in going into 
 the pressure, because we have had divers in experi- 
 menting going to a pressure of 90 lbs. to the square 
 inch in two minutes, and coming up again most of the 
 way in about two minutes, and they felt nothing. 
 
 3011. (Dr. Legge.) In your experience is this kind of 
 Tvork ever done except under medical supervision?— 
 
 Certainly it is don© without special medical supervi- 
 sion. I think in this country it is always done with 
 care, but so far as I know it is done in small engineer- 
 ing undertakings without special medical supervision. 
 
 3012. Supposing a man had perforatio'n of the drum 
 of his ear, would that indicatei he had worked in such 
 • conditions? — ^No', I think he would be immune, because 
 
 the air would go straight in. 
 
 3013. But it would be quite possible for the man, if 
 he had a perforated membrane, not to be fully aware 
 of it, I suppose, and to discover the fact subsequently ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3014. So that you wouJd be open to a wrong 
 diagnosis occasionally? — Do you mean a perforation 
 due to the work. 
 
 3015. No. Supposing he had a perforation of the 
 •membrane beforeihand, and he realised subsequently 
 that he had it, might not he claim compensation then 
 for a perforation which pre-existed ? — ^Yes, he might. 
 
 3016. But where that work was done under medical 
 ■supervision I suppose there would always be an ex- 
 amination made of the ear?— Yes, that would be one 
 advantage of medical supervision from the employer's 
 point of view. 
 
 3017. Have you come aeross medical mem who have 
 had cha-rge ef these workers?— I have in one or two 
 ■cases — in the case of the Rotherhithe Tunnel. 
 
 3018. "Would it be desirable to appoint a man as 
 medical referee who had had experience of such work, 
 -or are the symptoms such that any medical man could 
 
 decide upon theni?— I think it would be advisable to 
 Tiave some special knowledge of this caisson disease— 
 or, at any rate, of the literature of it. I think any 
 'Capable medical man who had read the literature of it 
 would have no difficulty, but most medical men have 
 not specially studied it. 
 
 3019. Have you Tiad any experience of deafness in 
 ■other industries— iboiler-makers are said to sufier 
 largely from it ?— I "have heard of it, but I have never 
 rpersonally investigated those forms of deafness- 
 
 3020. (Clmirman.) 1 will now turn to the subject of 
 fibrosis of the lungs. Have you investigated "this 
 disease for various purposes? — Eor miners' phthisis, 
 yes. 
 
 3021. Among what classes of men?— Chiefly among 
 miners, but also to a certain extent among pottery 
 workers. 
 
 3022. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do you mean coal miners ? 
 —No; there is practically none of it among coal 
 miners. I refer to metalliferous miners, especially in 
 Cornwall. 
 
 3023. (Chairman.) In what other employment have 
 you given attention to the disease?— To a certain 
 extent, in connection with pottery works. I have gone 
 into the statistics, at any rate, as far as it was possible 
 to do so. I have investigated many occupations where 
 I could get no evidence of fibrosis being produced by 
 the dust. 
 
 3024. Affections of the lungs may be tubercular or 
 fibroid, or bo'th, I suppose? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 3025. Fibrosis of the lungs is due to the inhalation 
 of dust, is it ? — It is said to be so. I do not like to 
 go any further than that, either positively or nega- 
 tively. 
 
 3026. Do you think tuberculosis imay also be due to 
 dust? — Yes. My view is that the inhalation of dust 
 renders the lungs enormously susceptible to the attack 
 of the tubercle bacillus, and I think that has been 
 the m.ain factor in cases of phthisis due to dusty occu- 
 pations which I have see.n. \ 
 
 3027. Can you, from the symptoms of a man, with 
 certainty tell whether the lung disease from which he 
 is suffering is due to the inhalation of dust or is 
 analogous to the lung diseases prevalent in the general 
 population? — I do not think, honestly, that you can 
 with certainty. There are certain general differences, 
 I should say, in the symptoms, but if you took a miner 
 who is suffering from miners' phthisis, and showed him 
 to a general practitioner who was not particularly 
 familiar with miners' phthisis, I think he would put 
 him down as an ordinary case of phthisis. 
 
 3028. But suppose you ha.d a specialist, a man who 
 was exceedingly skilled in lung diseases, would he be 
 able to say, supposing he had 10 oases in a hospital of 
 lung disease, that A, B, and C were suiiering from 
 diseases due ito their employmeiut, and the remainder 
 were, suffering from diseases not due to their employ- 
 ment? — I do not think he would in any individual 
 case have sufficient grounds tO' go on to be justified in 
 saying positively from the symptoms alone that a case 
 of phthisis is due to dust inhalation. 
 
 3029. Supposing you had in a Cornish mining vil- 
 lage half a dozen men whom you knew were engaged in 
 mining, and who bad, let us say, returned from the 
 Transvaal suffering from a lung disease, would you 
 be able to say with certainty whether those six men, 
 all, or what number of them, were suffering from 
 a disease due to their employment ? — ^I should say you 
 could tell that with very great probability. A man 
 who had ha,d experience of this disease could tell with 
 very great probability, but I think he would be at a 
 loss if he saw the case, and was not told that the man 
 was a miner, and not told anything about his history. 
 He would be at a loss to distinguish, .at any rate, the 
 great majority of the symptoms. Some of them, I 
 must say, have distinguishing symptoms which are 
 different from those in other cases of phthisis, but 
 many of them have not. 
 
 3030. How would you describe the cases which have 
 the distinguishing symp.toms? What would you call 
 those oases ? — I should say in cases where the amount 
 of shortness of breath is very much in excess of the 
 symptoms of consolidation of the lung- 
 
 3031. Is there any term which would cover those 
 cases and exclude those without distinctive symptoms 
 
 "miners' phthisis," for example, or "potters' 
 
 phthisis " ? — No. I think miners' phthisis and potters' 
 nhthisis must be taken to include the whole of the 
 cases of phthisis which these men suffer from- 
 
 3032. Although they may be suffering in exactly the 
 same way, and from exactly the same cause as their 
 relations who are not employed in the industry at all '! 
 —Yes. I think there must be a few oases among 
 miners and potters which would have happened any- 
 how, whatever their employment, and it is almost ias- 
 possible to distinguisJi those crises. 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 
 Haldane, 
 
 M.D., F.E.S. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
94 
 
 MINUTEH OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Haldane, 
 
 M.D., F.R.S. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
 3033. But they are compai-atively very few, are they ? 
 — Certainly, very few in comparison to ths large 
 number of cases which occur amongst metalliferous 
 miners. 
 
 3034. If there were a dozen miners suffering from 
 complaints of this nature, is it probaible that 10 or 
 11 of them would be suffering in consequence of their 
 employment? Would that be abooit the proportion 
 you would suggest ? — Yes ; and one can judge very well 
 from the statistics on the subject. I refer in my precis 
 of evidence to Ta'ble 16, embodied in the report on the 
 health of Cornish miners (Parliamentary Papier Cd. 
 2091, 1905), which contains the causes of death of a 
 number of miners who had worked with rock-drills, 
 and whose names were found in the Death Register at 
 Camborne. 
 
 3035. Did they work with rock-drills in England or 
 in the Ti-ansvaal? — Any man who at any time worked 
 with the rock-drill is on this list. Tliere are 142 men 
 w'ho had worked rock-drills, and of those men 133 had 
 died from lung disease, and nine from all other causes 
 put together, including accident. The average age at 
 death of these men was about 37. 
 
 3036. Of those wlho died of lung disease, how many 
 should you think had the cbaracteristic symptoms in- 
 dicating that the disease was due to the inhalation of 
 dust? — ^I should not like to give any estimate on that 
 point. The number of cases I have seen is limited, but 
 I should doubt whether more than 10 per cent, of 
 those presented such characteristic symptoms as -would 
 enable a doctor who knew the disease thiOTOugh'ly to 
 distinguish it from other forms of phthisis. 
 
 3037. And yet you think, do you, that the great 
 majority of them suffered from the disease owing to 
 having been engaged in that occupation? — I think 
 there is not the slightest doubt, from the statistics. 
 You see, for instance, with regard to the men who 
 had worked in the Transvaal, out of 49 deaths 48 
 occurred from lung disease. These men probably were 
 the men most exposed to the dust. 
 
 3038. Do you ever get fibrosis of the lung among 
 people who are not engaged in occupations involving 
 the inhalation of dust t — One gets it in the case oi 
 syphilis, for instance. It is one of tho chronic stager 
 
 following syphilitic infection. But it would be alwayi 
 possible to' distinguish any of these cases by post-mor. 
 tem examination of the lungs. The lungs of the minei 
 are unmistakable. 
 
 3039. Then by post-morten could you always say 
 that a man's lung disease had been due to his occupa- 
 tion, or not as the case might be? — ^Youi could say — 
 ab any rate, with very great probability — that the 
 disease had not been due to his occupation. If on 
 examining the lungs of a man who was supposed to 
 have had miners' phthisis you found no' stone-dust in 
 the lung, I think you could say very positively that his 
 disease had not been due to his occupation. 
 
 3040. You said, did not you, that a miner's lung is 
 unmistakable? — Yes, the amount of dust in it being 
 so great. 
 
 3041. If yooi found these specific miners' symptoms 
 in the lung en post-moitem, would you be entitled to 
 say he had died in consequence of an industrial dis- 
 ease ? — I think so. I have seen cases of that sort. In 
 one case where we made a post-mortem examination, 
 a man had been a farmer for 10 or 15 years. He was 
 an old miner, he died of phthisis, and the lungs were 
 full of stone-dust. 
 
 3042. Do you think that man would not have died 
 of phthisis if he had not worked as a miner previously ? 
 — One could say with almost absolute certainty that he 
 would not. 
 
 3043. Is this disease a disease of very gradual 
 growth? — It is of veiy gradual growth: in the majority 
 of cases ; that is to say, if the amount of dust inhaled 
 is small, it is of very gradual growth, and it may take 
 40 years practically before symptoms occur ; but if the 
 amount of dust inhaled is large, as in the case of rock- 
 drill men before the present regulations were made, 
 then death might occur aftsr two years' work. 
 
 3044. Does what you have said with regard to miners' 
 phthisisi apply also to potters' phthisis ? — I think so, as 
 far as I can judge. I have not the same knowledge of 
 potters' phthisis as of miners' phthisis, but there is a 
 very great deal of phthisis, and apparently it exists 
 still, as far as one can judge by the register at Stoke 
 and in the neighbourhood of Stoke. There appear to 
 be still a great many cases of phthisis among pottery 
 
 employees, just the samei sort of cases as exist among 
 metalliferous miners, excluding rock-drill men, who an» 
 more subject to the disease. It attacks the olds? luxsa., 
 or at any rate, it hardly shows itself before the age of 
 40, but then it grows rapidly. 
 
 3045. Is there any possibility of saying how large a 
 proportion of cases is caused by the disease which 
 shows the characteristic symptoms? — I am afraid I 
 have not sufficient experience of potters' phthisis to say 
 definitely. I should not expect you would find any 
 more characteristic symptoms in them than in tlie case 
 of miners. • 
 
 3046. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Is your view that phthisis 
 clearly is a disease, and not an accident? — Yes, it is 
 a disease, because it is the result of a long period of 
 exposure toi the causes. 
 
 3047. In a case of death, you have said that there 
 would not ba much praotioal difficulty in assigning 
 the death to its right cause? — I think not. 
 
 3048. Would the sputum be an indication ; would 
 you expect to fijid any dust in that ? — ^When the lung 
 is breaking down actually, I believe you do. I have 
 never observed it myself, but I have heard of it. 
 
 3049. It would not be sufficient to be a critical test 
 then, would it ? — I think it would be of very little use 
 practically. 
 
 3050. With regard to the nature of the different 
 sorts of dust that cause this disease ; in the first place 
 it is plain, is not it, that there are some dusts which 
 are innocuous ^-I think so, or at any rate relatively 
 innocuous. 
 
 3051. Or may be treated as innocuous?! — ^Yes. 
 
 3052. For instance, such things as flour would he 
 probably innocuous? — ^I think so', though curiously I 
 believe there is some evidence of phthisis being pro- 
 duced by silicioTis seeds. 
 
 3053. Are you alluding to the hard American wheat, 
 where the husk may be silicious ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3054. But, as a general rule, soft dust, such as wood 
 dust, and things of that sort, are not those which 
 cause this disease, are they? — No. Cement-dust, for 
 instance, is a case in point. As far as I have been able 
 to discover myself, or hear from others, it has no effect. . 
 
 3055. Does the same thing apply as to chalk-dust ? — 
 Chalk-dust is something of the same sort of thing. 
 
 3056. It would not be likely to causa disease, would 
 it ? — ^Not so far as is known, and I have often enquired 
 into the effects of these sorts of dusts. 
 
 3057. Coal-dust is innocuous, or is believed to be 
 innocuous, too, is not it? — Yes, or relatively innocuous. 
 
 3058. I suppose the dusts we may take as dangerous 
 ones are ganister, which is powdered silica ?■— -Yes, Dr. 
 Legge has furnished very conclusive figures on that 
 subject, I think. 
 
 3059. Ganister-dust would be distinctly dangerous, 
 I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 3060. The silica in which the finer kinds of porcelain 
 are embedded wiU again be a dangerous dust, I sup- 
 pose ? — Yes. 
 
 3061. As to steel, that, I suppose, would be a dan- 
 gerous dust?— I think so ; I think there is very little 
 doubt about that. Of course, steel-dust is- usually 
 mixed with emery. But there are oases of phthisis 
 which are apparently due to steel from which emery- 
 dust is excluded. I think the file-makers' phfiiisis, for 
 instance, is probably a case in point. Theira there is 
 no non-metallic dust breathed. 
 
 3062. But there will be lead there, will not there?— 
 It is full of steel ; in striking the files a lot of steel is 
 disengaged, and if you take the dust found in a file- 
 makersi' workshop and examine it with a magnet, you 
 will find it is full of steel. 
 
 3063. Are you able to say whether when the steel 
 comes off the grindstone in sparks, it gets oxidised 
 and made innocuous, or not ?i— I have often supposed 
 that the sparks which burn must become innocuous. I 
 do notknow. It is only a matter of caniecture, but I 
 think it is very likely. 
 
 3064. I suppose that those kinds of millstone grit, 
 that are used in grinding steel, will be silicious,. and 
 probably dangerous ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3065. With regard to emery and corundum do you 
 think the Committee should include those in the 
 Schedule ? Emery, of course, is a different thing from 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES, 
 
 95 
 
 silica, and is a form of ruby, is not it 1 — I am not 
 sure what its chemical composition is. 
 
 3066. We have definite evidence about emery and 
 corundum and other grinding materials as well as 
 millstone grit ; have you seen that evidence ?— I can- 
 not remember any ifefinite evidence, but I have no 
 doubt that it would set up irritation, which would 
 produce phthisis. 
 
 3067. Have you seen the process of grinding ? — Yes, 
 many grinding processes. 
 
 3068. Am I right in saying ihat they may be divided 
 into three_ great groups — the wet, the moist, and the 
 dry grinding? — Yes. 
 
 3069. By wet grinding, I mean when there is a 
 volume of water poured on the grindstone, as is done 
 in many modern works. Then there is the moist 
 grinding, when there is an occasional bucket of water 
 thrown on the stone, and. then there is the dry grind- 
 ing when there is nothing thrown on at all ? — ^Yes, 
 
 3070. The first of those processes would appear to 
 me, speaking without knowledge, as probably devoid 
 of danger. Would you say so ? — Yes, I should say so. 
 
 3071. Would the moist process be probably inter- 
 mediate, depending on the extent to which the stone 
 was wet? — Yes. 
 
 3072. And the dry grinding would probably dis- 
 engage a quantity of dust which, if not removed 
 effectually, would very likely be dangerous? — Yes. 
 
 3073. I believe there are a large number of stones, 
 are not there, that have to be used dry because the 
 waters wears them off ? — I have heard so, but I have no 
 special knowledge on the subject. 
 
 3074. Have you any knowledge whether it would 
 not be perfectly easy to disuse those stones altogether, 
 and to use nothing but wet stones ? — I should not like 
 to express an opinion on that myself, because I do 
 not know sxifficient about it. 
 
 3075. As to the occupations which are subject to 
 these dusts, first is there the metalliferous miner. In 
 using the words " miners' phthisis " you do not mean, 
 do you, phthisis common to all miners, but phthisis 
 common to metalliferous miners, I take it? — Yes. 
 
 3076. Do you mean ajiy particular class of metalli- 
 ferous miner J for instaji<», would tin workers be 
 subject to it? — Any miners working in. tin would be 
 subject to it. 
 
 3077. But do not some of the minerals lie in those 
 .sorts of stone which are not dangerous at all ?— -I think 
 that probably is so. Ironstone, of course, is not a*, 
 all dangerous. 
 
 3078. So that in using the words "metalliferous 
 miners " we must, must we not, rather refer to miners 
 who work in silicious rock, which is perhaps more 
 what you intend to deal with ? — Yes. I should rather 
 put it as miners who work in metal occurring in lodes 
 and not in strata. 
 
 3079. But the material they are engaged in getting 
 must be of a silicious character in order to produce 
 this disease, must it not? — I think that is in the main 
 correct'. The disease, as far as I know, is always 
 associated with silicious rook. 
 
 3080. Taking the case of miners who are ripping 
 roofs down — boring, them and blasting them down for 
 getting coal — they would not probably be dealing with 
 a silicious material, would they, and though it was 
 rock, still they would not have the disease? — I think 
 if it was shale they were bringing down, there would 
 probably be no danger in it, but if it was sandstone 
 there would, and there are many cases in coal mining 
 where they ought to take precautions. 
 
 3081. Do you mean really metalliferous miners 
 working in silicious material? Is that the class to 
 which you are directing our attention? — Yes, it is. 
 Perhaps I should put it a little more generally than 
 that, and say working in hard stone. 
 
 3082. But there might be hard stones, might not 
 there, which are limestones ?— I am not sure. A great 
 many of the lead miners work in limestone, and lead 
 miners are very subject to miners' phthisis. 
 
 3063. Do not you think it is the lead possibly which 
 produces it? — No. 
 
 3084. Do you think it is due to the rock? — ^Lead 
 miners never get lead poisoning practically. 
 
 3085. If it were wished to distinguish miners' disease 
 
 in some way, can you suggest what word should be 
 used to describe the process ? It is conceded, I under- 
 stand, that it would not be every sort of mining in 
 every sort of material, but that it would be necessary 
 to limit the definition of the process in some way 
 or other. Can you suggest a rough definition which 
 could be used ? We cannot say " every miner " ; that 
 is too wide ; even '' every metalliferous miner " appears 
 to be too wide in some respects, and too narrow in 
 others, because it would cover all sorts of dealing with 
 rock with no silica in it, and it would not cover a 
 ccal miner, who might be engaged in silicious rock. 
 Can you suggest any definition of words which would 
 cover the process which you are particularly alluding 
 to? May I suggest to you "mining in silicious 
 material " or something of that sort ? I suppose that 
 would cover 9-lOths or 99-lOOths of the whole thing 
 really, would not it ? — I am not quite sure as to what 
 Ihe materials are that lead miners work in, and they 
 are certainly subject to phthisis, because there is often 
 silica in the lode, but it is not quite clear that their 
 symptoms are due to the particular quartz they 
 Vkork in. 
 
 3086. There seems to be some difliculty even there, 
 dees there not, in putting down a form of words which 
 would describe the thing properly? — I think there is 
 the word silicosis, for instance. 
 
 3087. May I take it that your remarks are chiefly 
 directed to silicious material ? — ^Yes, my experience 
 has been in connection with silicious material. May 
 i say that certain men employed in coal mines are 
 very much exposed to it, such as the men employed 
 in making stone drifts. 
 
 3088. Are you aware that in some cases the ganister 
 men are engaged in getting both ganister and coal, 
 which, I understand, lie right on top of one another? 
 Would that be an illiistration of what you meazi ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 S089. It is most difficult with regard to those men 
 i.0 say whether they are coal miners or ganister miners, 
 1 understand ? — Yes. 
 
 3090. (Chairman.) But it is the ganister which is 
 responsible for the disease in coal mining, is it not ? — ■ 
 Yes. 
 
 2091. The farmer whom you quoted as having been 
 a miner earlier in life would not have been a coal 
 miner, would he ? — No, he was a metalliferous miner 
 >n Cornwall, who had been in South Africa and all 
 over the world. 
 
 3092i (Mr. Cunynghame.) Among these diseases, 1 
 suppose, that due to ganister is clearly a rather bad 
 disease? — I think so from Dr. Legge's statistics. 
 
 3093. Have you had any experience of knife and 
 lazor grinding? — I have seen it, but I have not gone 
 into the statistics carefully. 
 
 3094. Have you had much experience in investi- 
 gating the causes of disease among workers in thoso 
 ti ades ? — No. 
 
 3095. May I take it that phthisis might be expected 
 to occur as a trade disease in a great many different 
 occupations, in mining on the one hand and in dry 
 grinding on the other, and so on? — Yes, there are 
 many occupations in which it would occur. 
 
 3096. Would you say that the occupations would 
 differ very much in this respect — that when you have 
 a case of phthisis in one occupation you would say 
 tl:o great probability is that it was due to disease ; on 
 the. other hand, in another occupation you would say 
 the very great probability was that it was not due to 
 disease? — ^Yes, I think that is all one could say. 
 
 3097. So that in any question of scheduling the 
 disease there would be some oases that perhaps might 
 clearly be scheduled, and some clearly not, aJid then 
 there would be an intermediate class in which all you 
 could do would be to study the probability ? — I do not 
 think there would be ajiy oases in which you could ex- 
 clude the influence of dust, if the man had been in the 
 habit of inhaling dangerous dust. 
 
 3098. But if you put the disease into the schedule 
 in some occupations, such as wet girinding, you would 
 'be putting down a disease which in nine cases out of 
 ten was not a disease resulting from occupation, would 
 you not? — ^Certainly. 
 
 3099- And the only plan is to take the question as 
 one of .Efreat probability. In some cases you would say 
 phthisis was most likely to occur from the occupation. 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Saldane, 
 
 M.D., F.E.S. 
 
 7 Dec. Ifl06. 
 
96 
 
 MINUTES OF ^EVIDENCE ; 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 
 Baldane, 
 
 M.D., F.R.S. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
 and in others not, although there was a chance each 
 way in every case? — Yes. 
 
 3100. What do you think, if these cases, or any 
 selected group of them, were put into the Third 
 Schedule, would be the difficulties, if any, in practical 
 working? Do you think there would be diificulty in 
 administration if you did so 1 — I think there would be 
 very serious difficulties, and that it would tell very 
 heavily against the men. 
 
 3101. Will you explain why? — What would happen 
 I am sure in the ease of the mines in Cornwall, for 
 instance, would be that they would not employ men who 
 had worked for a long time previously in mines, and 
 particularly men whom they suspected of having done 
 dangerous work abroad. There are -a great many men, 
 first-rate minersi who come home to Cornwall from 
 Inidia, the Transvaal, and various other countries. 
 
 3102. Would they say " You men are in a condition 
 in which phthisis is likely to break out, and then we 
 should have to compensate you, therefore we will not 
 employ you " ? — Yes. 
 
 3103. But could not that be dealt with by saying they 
 must take a less wage, or might not the employers run 
 the risk of insuring them with an offer of a lower wage. 
 Would not the difficulty possibly be met in that way 1— 
 It might be, but these men must have enough for them- 
 selves and their families to live on, and they could 
 not afford to work for a much less wage. 
 
 3104. In the state those men were in, and if the 
 mines were properly protected by special rules, do 
 you mean it would be better to allow them to go and 
 work rather than to keep them out of employment. Do 
 I rightly represent your view ? — I think it is very hard 
 on those men to be kept out of their employment en- 
 tirely ; and I think it would result in their being kept 
 out of employment, and in old miners generally being 
 kept out of employment at other mines than the one 
 particular mine they had worked in previously. I do 
 not think any mine owner would dismiss a man because 
 he was getting old, on the score of risk ; they would 
 not dismiss their own men, and would provide for 
 them, but they would say, " We are not going to pro- 
 vide for the damage done to men in other mines, par- 
 ticularly mines abroad." 
 
 3105. Could not those objections be met if a system 
 of insurance on a large scale were put into operation, 
 and if men who came from abroad were told that, in 
 consequence of their liability to this disease, the in- 
 creased insurance which would have to be paid for them 
 must be considered in their wages? — It would be a 
 tremendously large consideration. No insurance com- 
 pany would take a Transvaal rock-drill man. 
 
 3106. Do you think the risk is so great as that, and 
 that the premium would be so large? — It would be an 
 enormous premium. 
 
 3107. Then, in fact, do you think the Transvaal is 
 returning to us a lot of mew very seriously injured ? — 
 Undoubtedly. You find Transvaal men dying in nearly 
 every street in Camborne ; or it was so a short time 
 ago. 
 
 5106. In fact are they returning to us meni who would 
 find it .additionally difficult to find work, and who 
 would starve ? — ^They might get something to do, I dare- 
 say, but it would not be the work which they are 
 skilled in, and in which they could earn the best wages. 
 
 3109. That is one difficulty which you see, is it? — 
 Yes, and I see also a great difficulty with the older 
 Cornish miners. Supposing a mian over forty stops 
 work, or has lost his employment at one mine, and 
 wishes to get employment at another, and forty is 
 the age at which miners' phthisis becomes serious, I 
 think that man would find difficulty in getting em- 
 plojrment. 
 
 3110. In addition to those difficulties would the diffi- 
 julty of diagnosis occur ? — I suppose that really would 
 have to be decided by the man's history. 
 
 3111. Though difficulties might occur, do you think 
 they would not be so formidable as to be a bar to 
 putting the diseafe into the third schedule ? — I do not 
 think so from that point of view. The difficulty would 
 be to say what employer was responsible for the 
 phthisis. Cornish mine owners just now, where they 
 are taking great precautions against dust, would very 
 oiuch object to have the responsibility of the result of 
 mining in other places thrown upon them. 
 
 3112. Would not that difficulty be largely met by tie 
 provision, put the other day into the Bill, of a power 
 
 on the part of the iSecretary of State, to require mutual 
 insurance schemes, the effect of which would be that if 
 both former employer and present employer were in- 
 cluded in one company, the difficulty would not arise- 
 because they would all contribute together ? — But I see 
 a difficulty, taking Cornwall, where a great number of 
 mines have stopped working, or did stop working a few- 
 years ago, and a great many new ones are starting now. 
 I think the mine owners who contributed to the insur- 
 ance company would combine to keep out all the sus- 
 picious and older men. 
 
 3113. You think, do you, that there is still a diffi- 
 culty which would have to be faced, namely, la danger- 
 of the older men being thrown out of employment?— 
 Yes. 
 
 3114. And no considerations that I have been able to. 
 suggest, or others that occur to you seem to you quite 
 to meet that difficulty. Is that so 1 — Yes ; I think it is- 
 a difficulty which must be faced. I think the real solu- 
 tion of the difficulty as to miners' phthisis is a big in- 
 surance scheme to which the employers, the royalty- 
 holders, and the miners themselves, should contribute- 
 — ^as in Germany — ^an insurance scheme which will give 
 the men pensions if they ana disabled, and really 
 effectually provide for them and their dependants. 
 
 3115. Would some universal insurance scheme in 
 your opinion, be best calculated to obviate the difficulty 
 you have put before us ? — Yes, I think it is particularly 
 required in the case of an industry like metalliferous, 
 mining, which at the best is somewhat dangerous. 
 
 3116. Are you inclined to think, taking ganister, 
 that it would do more harm than good to the men's- 
 interests to put it into the schedule ? — I see the same 
 difficulty in all the industries which this matter deals- 
 with, and in which phthisis occurs. I am very much 
 afraid that it might injure the chances of the older- 
 men. 
 
 3117. Just at the time when the disease is most', 
 likely to break out ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3118. (Professor Allhutt.) You say in one sentence- 
 in your precis "that howevsr healthy a Transvaal 
 rock-drill man may appear to be on his return, he- 
 will probably be dead within a year or two." Such ai- 
 probability would create an enormous difficulty in any 
 scheme of insurance? — Yes. 
 
 3119. The death-rats is a heavy one ? — A very heavy 
 death-rate. 
 
 3120. Do you really mean a large majority die, 
 sooner or later, of the disease? — ^If they have worked 
 more than two or three years with the rock-drill in the- 
 Transvaal, yes. All we know about is the large- 
 majority of men who come home — practically there are 
 hardly any left of the men who came home some three - 
 years ago. 
 
 3121. You are dealing with miners' phthisis only, 
 and not other diseases, are you? — Miners' phthisis i. 
 only, and nothing else. 
 
 3122. Tha mortality amongst the men who come 
 home is enormously in excess of the normal incidenoa- 
 of phthisis ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3123. If you are insuring to meet the normal in- 
 cidence, it is one thing, but if you are insuring for 
 an exoassive incidence it is another thing. The diffi- 
 culty is, of course, to employ an average to an in 
 dividual case, is not it? — ^Yes, it would be- impossible ; 
 one individual may have taken precautions against the- 
 dust, 01" may not have been exposed to it for some- 
 reason. 
 
 3124. With regard to the prejudice against older- 
 mem, at what age does the disease break out?^That 
 is isho-mi in tbs statistics, in the table I have- 
 referred_ to. It depends entirely on the amount 
 of dust inhaled by the men. If a man is inhaling a 
 large quantity of dust, as a rock-drill man under tHa 
 old conditions did, when there was no water, two years 
 might be sufficient. 
 
 3125. Could you classify the work in degrees of peril! 
 — ^Yes, that was very dangerous work. 
 
 3126. Then would it not be important to make some 
 sub-divisions of the employment upon the basis of 
 greater or less peril to the men?— Yes, in the case 
 of rock-drill work, that was very dangerous ; and'iii twc 
 or three years might be sufficient to cause death. 
 
 3127. At whatever asu a man went to it ?— I should 
 say SO'. The rock-drill men who have died' latiely of 
 phthisis have been all young men> 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INBUSTEIAL DISEASE.". 
 
 97 
 
 3128. Migh.t there not be two rising curves, one say 
 between 20 and 30 years of age, and one between 45 
 and. 55, or do you thing the curves should be uniform 1 
 — It is a compound curve. The rock-drill men mostly 
 die between 30 and 40. 
 
 3129. At what age do they generally begin the work ? 
 — It is hard to say ; very often at 2S, but at different 
 times. Bock-drill work is a new kind of work, or at 
 least the great demand for it is rather new, so that 
 men take to it from other kinds of mining work, especi- 
 ally the more skilled class of men, and they get higher 
 wages. 
 
 3130. Do you find that among women in Cornwall 
 phthisis is very high 1 — ^No, it is very low. The death- 
 rate among women at Camborne is extremely low ; it 
 is less than 1 per 1,000, whereas the death-rate among 
 men is high, and the highness is due entirely to the 
 deaths amongst miners. There is no evidence of infec- 
 tion!, or at any rate widespread infection, sufacient to 
 affect the statistic®. 
 
 3151. However healthy a man may appear, I suppose 
 there is a certain latent period for these cases ?-— Yes, 
 I think it is probably a mere matter of chance as to 
 when he encounters sufficient tubercular infection to 
 light up the disease. That was the impression I 
 formed. 
 
 3132. Would you say that there might be a dust 
 period followed by a tuberculous period, the dust 
 period being more latent? — ^Do yoTi mean when there 
 are only fibroid changes going on in the lungs ? 
 
 3133. Speaking generally, do you think there is an 
 initial phase of dust irritation, and then super- 
 vention of tubercle upon that? — I think so, certainly. 
 
 3134. The difficulty is toi distinguish in the indi- 
 vidual case, I suppose ? — ^Yes, it is very often extremely 
 difficult to tell by examination of a man whether he 
 has inhaled a dangerous amount of dust. You can 
 almost tell better by the general appearance of the 
 man, curiously, than by eixamination. 
 
 3135'. How long might the latent period be?' — It) 
 seems to me it may be months., or it may be years. Men 
 often die of miners' phthisis who have been after their 
 mining work farmers or something of tha,t sort. 
 
 3136. In a case where a man leaves his employment 
 as a miner and takes to farming, would you be able to 
 fix the responsibility on the last employer, if, say, half- 
 a-dozen years had elapsed? — It might be that, or it 
 might be more. The appendix to the report shows the 
 condensed life history of a great many miners who have 
 died, and what I am saying now is inference drawn 
 from this table. 
 
 3137. "Would you say that where the dust is of a 
 dangerous quality, or on the other hand where it is 
 large in quantity, that the latent period would be 
 shorter? — Yes, decidedly very much shorter. 
 
 3138. Would that take you so far as to say that the 
 difficulty of discrimination chiefly arose in the acuta 
 cases, whichl appeared suddenly and ran their course 
 rapidly? — ^I should say those casesi are often easier to 
 diagnose, or at least the individual would bei almost 
 easier to diagnose. 
 
 3139. Doi you think the acute cases would be easier 
 to diagnose? — Quite as easy as the chronic one, I 
 should say. 
 
 3140. I thoughit perhaps having a latent period, 
 which presumably was not tubercle, there might be a 
 difficulty in distinguishing whether it was a dust case 
 pr not ? — I am not sure about it. 
 
 3140*. In making any diagnosis, we must assume 
 something liko a full knowledge of the individual case. 
 We cannot make diagnosis on imperfect information ? 
 
 — No. 
 
 .3141. 'May I suggest to yoxi then that a period of 
 shortness of bireaith with a comparative absence of 
 physical signs would be characteristic? — ^Comparative 
 absence of physical sis;ns, combined with great short- 
 ness of breath is, I think, rather characteristic. 
 
 3142. So that if one had sufficient knowledge of the 
 stages of the disease, one Would be a.ble by some such 
 characteristics as those to act with a certain amount 
 of discrimination ?— Yes. The doctors at Oambome 
 know these cases well, and deal with them a.s cases of 
 phthisis when I should have pat them down as cases 
 of ordinary asthma, but they know better, and that 
 the man is dying. 
 
 3143. We all know that the means of diagnosis have 
 419 
 
 improved, and that more and more of the fibrous 
 phthisis is found, sooner or later, to be tuberculous ; 
 'but I was suggesting there might be a preliminary 
 stage during which fibrosis might be distinguished 
 from a secondary tuberculous condition 1 — I am bound 
 to say that other observers have described the symp- 
 toms of fibrosis, but I have never obsearved these cases 
 myself. I have observed striking cases where men 
 seemed to be perefectly well and sound in wind, but 
 fairly rapidly they have begun to go down the hill, and 
 have died perhaps in two or three months. 
 
 3144. How do you think th'at the dust acts as a pre- 
 cursor — is it by setting up poinlts of irritation in the 
 lumg tissue ? — ^I should think so. I should say it is a 
 very difficult question of pathology why this kind of 
 dust should act so efficaciously in promoting disease, 
 wlhereas any amount of coal dust or ironstone dust 
 seems to do no harm. 
 
 3145. Does the incidence of the disease upon one 
 special part of the lung make any difference? — 
 I think that is a help in diagnosis. In the case of 
 miners' phthisis it is often the 'base which is attacked. 
 These cases of miners' phthisis very often seem to stairt 
 by what might be th^ought to be an infection of the 
 bronchi ; they have symptoms of asthma, but the 
 sputum is full of tubercle bacilli. 
 
 3145*. Supposing a case came to post-montem ex- 
 animation, the mere presence of duist in the lung would 
 merely show, would it not, that a man had been a 
 miner, and would not show that he had died of the 
 dust?— Yes. 
 
 3146. It would b3 by the characteristic changes in 
 the lung due to dust which you would rely upon, would 
 it not? — ^I meant to say that you would find plenty 
 of evidence of dust in the lungs if the case were a case 
 of miners' phthisis. However long a man. had 'been 
 a,way from the occupation, his lungs would be full of 
 dust. 
 
 3147. (Chairman.) But you would ordy be able to 
 discover that by post-mortem? — ^Yes. 
 
 3148. (Professor Allbutt.) In a word, would an expert 
 medical man be able, with adequate history of the in- 
 dividual case, in your opinion, in the large majority 
 of cases to give a fairly sound judgment as to wheither 
 the disease was on© due to" the .occupation or part of 
 the ordinary incidence of phthisis ? — I think he would. 
 
 3149. (Br. Legge.) Do you say, in your report on the 
 health of Oomis'h miners, on page 18, that " the exist- 
 ing prejudice in Cornwall against post-mortem ex- 
 aminations had prevented the making of post-moirtem 
 examinattions." Have you ever been able to make one ? 
 — ^Yes, one or two. 
 
 3150. Did you find the condition of the lung, as you 
 say here, the same as that contained in the examina- 
 tion and report on a lung by Dr. Andrews, whitfh is 
 published in the Chief Inspector's Report? — We have 
 never had a case exactly the same as that. We went 
 very carefully into the post-mortem aippearances in 
 ■Mil© case of an old man who died evidently of miners' 
 phthisis. Speaking from memory, he had been about 
 10 years away from the work, and we found stone dust 
 present. 
 
 3151. Would you modify this statement in the Re- 
 port : — " We have little doubt that 'these changes 
 would be found to be similar in nature to what has 
 already been observed in cases of lung disease pro- 
 duced by inhalation of stone dust. We would refer in 
 particular to -the very thorough and careful report by 
 Dr. Andrews on the lungs of two miners who had died 
 from lung disease induced by inhaling ganisiter dust. 
 In both these cases there was evidence of extensive 
 fijbroid dhange complicated by tubercle." What modi-, 
 fications do you find in the case of the Cornish miner? 
 —In the case I am thinking of the lung was full of 
 cavities, and very miich like a case of ordinary 
 phthisis ; and on microscopical examination it was 
 found there was no end of stone dust in the lung 
 tissue. 
 
 3152. Did you make any inquiry as to whether there 
 were any systems of insurance in vo.gue amongst the 
 miners in Cornwall? — There are sick dubs at the 
 mines. I do not know about other mines, but at the 
 mine I know best they have ha4 a isiok club for about 
 lOO years. 
 
 3153. Doee that club give pensions? — It gives sick 
 allowanoes. When a man is iU 'he s;ets an aIlow»nc». 
 Each man contributes something from his wages — T 
 
 N 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Haldane, 
 
 M.D., F.R.S. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906., 
 
98 
 
 MINUTES Of EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 
 Haidant, 
 
 M.D., F.R.S. 
 
 7 Deo. 1906. 
 
 think only about 6d. a Month — and it is managed by 
 tlie miners themselves. 
 
 3154. Have those clubs been able to meet the burden 
 thrown upon them by this sickness ? — Of course, all the 
 worst cases are oases of men. w^ho have not been regu- 
 larly employed at one mine, but men who have been 
 abroad. 
 
 3155. But if they came into employment in. that 
 mine, and became ill in this way, would they receive 
 so much per week until their death? — My impression 
 is that there is a discrimination made according to 
 the length of time of service. I know usually a mine 
 provides for its own men, and will help them when 
 they get old. 
 
 3156. Do you know what the amount of the pen- 
 sion is ? — I have seen old men there who get some very 
 light work on the surface at a good wage, and I believe 
 that actual pensions are also given. 
 
 3157. So that a system of insuring against disease 
 is in vogue at the present time ? — ^Yes ; but it does 
 not meet the very numerous oases of miners who are 
 not, as it were, attached tO' any particular mine. 
 
 3158. With regard to the Transvaal miners, wiho 
 appear to have afiected the mortality figures in this 
 Report so muicih, is it not likely that, in consecLuence 
 of returning from a warmer climate to this country, 
 they na^jidly succumlb ? — Yes, I think so ; and perhaps 
 there is more tubercular infection in this country than 
 in a new country. 
 
 3159. If you leave out the Transvaal miners from 
 your figures the conditions' are serious, but vastly less 
 so than when they are included ? — ^Yes, much less. 
 
 3160. {Chairman.) Do I gather, as the upshot of your 
 evidence, t(ha.t you are clearly of opinion that it would 
 be incorrect to say that fibrosis of the lung is an in- 
 dustrial disease, and that other lung troubles are not 
 industrial ? If the Secretary of State were to schedule 
 fibrosis of the lung as a. disease for which compensa- 
 tion was payable, would that definition necessarily 
 cover all oases of industrial lung disease ? — ^No ; I think 
 it is not quite a suitable description. 
 
 3161. Is there any description which would tally 
 with those lung diseases that are industrial in their 
 nature? — Do you mean in word or designation? 
 
 3162. Yes, any term? — ^I do not think there is any 
 very satisfactory term. Perhaps silicosis would ex- 
 press it, but I like the oidinary sort of names like 
 miners' phthisis. 
 
 3163. But is not that rather begging the question? 
 Is not that assuming that phthisis in the miner is a 
 trade disease ? — ^Yes ; and I have not the smallest doubt 
 that in a metalliferous miner it is a trade disease. 
 
 3164. But a coal miner, for instance, might have 
 phthisis, I suppose? — ^Yes ; and his work is one which 
 is singularly free from phthisis. 
 
 3165. No Court would give compensation, would it, 
 to a coal miner who had phthisis merely because 
 miners' phthisis was scheduled in an Act of Parlia- 
 ment ? — Certainly not ; it would be absurd. 
 
 3166. Are you sure the Court would not interpret 
 ^' miners' phthisis " as meaning the phthisis of a 
 miner? You suggest the word silicosis, do you? — Yes ; 
 that is used a good deal. 
 
 3167. Would that cover all the cases that ought 
 properly to be covered in this connection ? — I am afraid 
 there are other cases of phthisis due to dust inhalation 
 ■which are not due to the inhalation of silica. 
 
 3168. (Br. Legge.) Would you extend your definition 
 •of silicosis to siderosis, and then you would have a 
 comprehensive term ? — ^Yes, I think that, on the whole, 
 would be better than fibrosis. 
 
 3169. (Chairman.) Do I understand you to say that 
 a man who has been engaged in a dusty occupation, 
 ■such as ganister mining or gold mining in the Trans- 
 vaal, has fibroid affection of the lung which may 
 remain latent, and often does remain latent for a very 
 long time, but that if by chance he comes into contact 
 with tubercular infection he is specially liable to 
 •tuberculosis, and may die of it? — ^Yes, that is my 
 view of it certainly, except that I should not like to 
 say that he has a fibroid affection of the lung, but 
 that bis lung is injured in some way, in such a way 
 that it is rendered much more liable to the attacks of 
 the tubercle bacillus. 
 
 3170. If he did not come into contact with tubercle 
 infection he might live on, and die of seniUty, might 
 he 1—As far as my ex^jerience goes, that is possible. 
 
 3171. Do you think it is at all probable? — I have 
 not had sufficient experience to say. I think it is 
 possible he might have a perfectly non-infective 
 fibrosis of the lung. 
 
 3172. (Professor Allbutt.) You would probably agree 
 that we are all of us always exposed to bacilli, and 
 breathe plenty of them, I suppose ?— Yes. 
 
 3173. (Chairman.) Do you think if we use the term 
 silicosis and siderosis of the lungs that that would 
 cover the case of a man who really died of tubercu- 
 losis which was a trade disease only in the sense that 
 he had been made specially susceptible to tubercu- 
 losis from the fact of his lumg having been injured by 
 the inhalation of dust?— I think that would cover it. 
 
 3174. Do not you think the employer might plead, 
 " This man has not died of siderosis or silicosis, but 
 has died of ordinary tuberculosis, which anybody else 
 might die from " ? — ^He might plead that, and it might 
 appeal to a magistrate who did not know the facts, or 
 perhaps looked it up in some books which stated the 
 facts wrongly. But it is a well-known fact that those 
 diseases are tubercular. 
 
 3175. It ought not to mislead a medical man, ought 
 it ?— No. 
 
 3176. Is it your opinion if the words used were 
 silicosis and siderosis of the lungs no injustice would 
 accrue? — I do not think so. I think very soon cases 
 would be decided in a perfectly fair way. 
 
 3177. Would those terms cover potters' phthisis, 
 ganister disease, and all metalliferous miners' 
 phthisis ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 3178. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you mean to suggest 
 that fibrosis does not arise frequently from other 
 causes than those? — Certainly it arises from other 
 causes, and my only doubt is as to whether it really 
 arises from dust. 
 
 3179. So that we are not to use the word fibrosis in 
 any specific sense, not even in respect of dust phthisis ? 
 — That is my feeling about it. 
 
 3180. (Chairman.) Can siderosis and silicosis of the 
 lung be diagnosed without a post-mortem examina- 
 tion? — I think for practical purposes they can, but 
 if the matter were contested in a court it would be 
 troublesome to say with absolute certainty. I should 
 have said that a magistrate would be able to decide 
 a case fairly if he heard from a medical man that the 
 chances were perhaps 10 to 1 or 50 to 1 that it was 
 such a case. 
 
 3181. This particular question is left by the Bill to 
 the medical officers. The judge has only to decide 
 whether a disease, having been ascertained, does or 
 does not arise from the employment. It is for the 
 medical man to say whether the special disease is 
 there or not ? — ^I think the medical man can only say, 
 if he does not make a post-mortem, that it is 10 to 1, 
 or something like it, that the disease is due to the 
 inhalation of dust. 
 
 3182. (Mr. Cunynghame.) We have had some evi- 
 dence that dust sometimes produces not phthisis but 
 bronchitis. Have you anything to say with regard 
 to that, as regards the effects of dust from silica? — 
 These cases of miners' phthisis in Cornwall wcrald 
 often be put down as chronic bronchitis. 
 
 3183. Supposing the words " miners' phthisis " were 
 employed in a definition, would the word phthisis be 
 held medically sufficiently wide to cover bronchitis ? — 
 Bronchitis occurs as a symptom of phthisis. 
 
 3184. Is bronchitis only a symptom of phthisis? — 
 Yes, it may be a symptom of phthisis. 
 
 3185. If a man had bronchitis and was really very 
 ill with it, would you call it phthisis ? — You would 
 diagnose phthisis more from the wasting and other 
 accompaniments. 
 
 3186. Would bronchitis without that wasting be a 
 characteristic disease of which you have been speak- 
 ing ? — ^No ; but you do get bronchitis from dust, espe- 
 cially dust from fibres, flax, and things of that sort. 
 
 3186*. But the proper description! as to these miners 
 would be phthisis, would it not ? — Yes. 
 
 5187. (Chairman.) Siderosis and silicosis of the 
 lungs would not cover bronchitis, would it? — No, it 
 would not cover pure bronchitis. 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE OK INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 99 
 
 3188. But bronchitis you think in some cases may 
 le an industrial disease, do you? — Certainly. 
 
 3189. In what cases ? — In the case of persons inhaling 
 flax dust in a very dusty room. I do not think it is 
 anything like so dangerous as stone dust. 
 
 3190. May a man be incapacitated by it from work ? 
 — ^I think so, particularly in the winter. 
 
 3191. Can that form of bronchitis be distinguished 
 from the ordinary bronchitis which is prevalent among 
 other persons ? — That again is a matter of the medical 
 history of the case. 
 
 3192. Are the symptoms precisely the same? Sup- 
 posing there are two brothers, one working in a flax 
 mill and the other a gardener, and both have 
 bronchitis, could you say the gardener's bronchitis 
 was in any way different from the mill-worker's 
 bronchitis? — I think it might be difficult to say, ex- 
 cept from the history of the case, and from the fact 
 that the mill-worker knew that when he went into the 
 mill he got worse. 
 
 3193. Then would you be entitled to say that the 
 mill-worker would not have had bronchitis xinless he 
 had been in the mill ? — I think so ; I think you could 
 say so from the history of the case. 
 
 3194. (Mr. Cunynghame.) On the other hand, you 
 
 would not put down all the bronchitis that mill hands 
 had necessarily to the dust, would you? — Oh, no; 
 there is a good deal of bronchitis apart from that. 
 
 3195. (Chairman.) Would it be a very doubtful point 
 in any individual case whether bronchifis was indus- 
 trial or ordinary? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 3196. (Mr. Cunynghame.) It has been stated by a 
 witness that in some towns they attribute the pre- 
 valence of respiratory diseases to the immense amount 
 of dust in the air, and that the inhabitants catch it 
 a good deal from the dust and surrounding conditions 
 as much as the workmen do. Do yo» happen to have 
 anything to say upon that point? — ^I do not know 
 which towns you refer to. At Middlesbrough there is 
 a sort of epidemic of pneumonia, which occurs badly 
 every two or three years. It is a horrible epidemic, 
 and no one has ever yet got to the bottom of it, or 
 why; it sticks to Middlesbrough. But the evidence is 
 against its being due to the dust of the town. 
 
 3197-98. Sothat in considering this question of diseases 
 in particular places, I suppose we must be careful to 
 look at the particular town in which it occurs, and 
 the conditions of health of the town, otherwise we 
 might be led to wrong conclusions occasionally ? — ^Yes, 
 I think so. That is a case where I think the evidence 
 is against pneumonia being due to the dust. 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 
 Haldane, 
 
 M.D., F.R.s. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
 Mr. BuBSEix FoBBEB Caspenteb, r.i.c, called in and examined. 
 
 3199. (OhaiTman.) Are you Chief Inspector of Alkali 
 Works under the Local Government Board? — ^Yes, 
 that Department concerns itself with the regulations 
 as to the emission of acid gases specifically in soma 
 cases, and using " best practicable means " in othet 
 cases. 
 
 3200. Previously to that did you have considerabla 
 experience as a manager of chemical works? — ^Yes. 
 
 3201. The cases which we wish to investigate are not 
 those which can be described as accidents, you under- 
 stand ? — Yes, I was here when Dr. Rogers, of Clifie at 
 Hoo, gave his evidence. 
 
 3202. The case of a tap which leaks, with the result 
 that a poisonous gas is emitted, and a man falls down 
 incapacitated does not concern us, because that is an 
 industrial accident. Of those diseases or injuries 
 which are mentioned in the paper you have been good 
 enough to hand me, will you take first poisoning by 
 sulphurous acid gas ? — That we have very considerable 
 experience of as regards the evolution of the gas a,nd 
 its control in the manufacture of sulphuric acid, which 
 is the largest acid manufacture existing. 
 
 3203. Are the poisonings there in the nature of acci- 
 dents ?— No. I do not think we could very well tra^e 
 any poisoning or any evil results following from it. 
 In the case of a man coming to the employment, that 
 is to say tending the burners which evolve the gas, if 
 in a few weeks he finds his breathing afiected, he 
 would leave and g;t some other employment. The 
 employers desire this work to be in the hands of the 
 very steadiest men. From my experience they prefer 
 to employ married men if possible, because they have 
 responsibilities in the shape of families to keep, and 
 so on. The operation goes on continuously, year in 
 and year out, till the plant is stopped, so that the 
 men have to work in the steadiest possible fashion 
 night and day. 
 
 3204. Are there any cases of men being incapacitated 
 from this process ?— Only such as those whom I may 
 describe as having an idiosyncrasy, aaid cannot bean? 
 the smalleist traicesi of the gas. 
 
 3205. They are not incapacitated from work, are 
 they?— No, the employment is of the steadiest kind, 
 so that the men can go on to old age. 
 
 3206. Then with regard to sulphuric acid vapour, 
 are there cases of poisoning ?'— That, I think, is a most 
 irritating vapour to the bronchise of men who are 
 constantly exposed to it, and might develop a tendency 
 to bronchitis ; but again I do not know of any serious 
 incapacitation of men who have been engaged in the 
 work. 
 
 3207. Have you come across any men who have 
 been obliged to give up work because they have been 
 employed in a process in which they are exposed to 
 sulphuric acid vapour?— Yes, I know men have found 
 that they have had to give up the work. 
 
 419 
 
 Mr. B. F. 
 
 Carpenter, 
 
 F.l.c. 
 
 3208. Were the symptoms bronchial symptoms? — ■ 
 Yes. 
 
 3209. With regard to nitrous fumes, are the cases 
 
 of poisoning accidental poisoning or gradual poison- 7 Dec. 1906, 
 
 ing? — I think all the cases I know of are cases of — ^^ 
 accidental poisoning. That is also a gas which some 
 
 men cannot stand. I think the evidence of Dr. 
 Rogers explained clearly the nature of it. 
 
 3210. Then what do you say as to chlorine fumes ? — • 
 There has been a great amount of evidence taken for 
 the Home Office on the subject. In 1893 a Home Office 
 Commission went round the centres of industry and 
 obtained a great deal of evidence, and there again there 
 is the idiosyncrasy that the men who can stand it, 
 stand it for years. The work of packing the chambers, 
 while it lasts, is very laborious. I know a case of a 
 man who ruptured himself from coughing by inhala- 
 tion of the gas, which I take it would not be an 
 accident, but something arising from the nature of his 
 employment. A man might get a bigger dose than 
 usual, and the case I know of is that of an employer 
 who is ruptured to-day. If he had been a workman he 
 could not have followed his employment. Most of this 
 work is piecework, I may say. 
 
 3211. Do you think there is a distinct trade disease 
 arising from chlorine processes in alkali works? — Ot 
 in any works. Of course chlorine fumes are greatest 
 in alkali works. 
 
 3212. Then what do you say as to sulphuretted 
 hydrogen ? Is that also evolved in alkali works ? — Yest 
 from the alkali waste. 
 
 3213. Do you get gradual poisoning from that? — I 
 may say I am a sufferer myself from that, and had to 
 give up my work at Bidstol owing to the effects of 
 graduial slow poisoning by sulphuretted hydrogen. I 
 am a very bad instance of the effect of sulphuretted 
 hydrogen on the system. My whole mucous membrane 
 seems to absorb it. In employments of the gas where 
 it is evolved together with steam, the intense pain pro- 
 duced behind the eyes leads to great congestion, and 
 some men become blind. On most men under such 
 conditions sulphuretted hydrogen has a very great 
 effect, and there are few cases of insensibility to it. A 
 man can follow his occupation and do his work, but he 
 will go home with great pain in his eyes, be almost 
 blind, and would pass a sleepless night. 
 
 3214. Is the blindness permajient? — No ; it proceeds 
 from congestion of the retina. 
 
 3215. Are men incapacitated for any considerable 
 time ?- No. 
 
 3216. Therefore in all these cases a man may be par- 
 ticularly susceptible to the deleterious effects which 
 are temporary and unpleasant, and might lead him 
 to go to some other employment, but he is not 
 permanently injured in his health? — In the cases I 
 
 n2 
 
100 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. £. F. 
 Carpenter, 
 F.I.c. 
 
 7 Dee. 1906. 
 
 have in view the men prefened to retain their employ- 
 ment in spite of these symptoms. 
 
 3217. If they were entitled to claim compensation for 
 incapacity, do you think that a Court would hold they 
 were incapacitated ? — It depends, I suppose, upon the 
 number of times it happened. 
 
 3218. Could you say it was in any sense a disease ? 
 For instance, you would not say you yourself suffered 
 from a disease, would you ? — No, I used to suffer from 
 susceptibility. 
 
 3219. Which would, if you were working in this em- 
 ployment, cause you discomfort .and pain ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3220. But so soon as you came out of the atmosphere 
 in which the sulphuretted hydrogen was, the symptoms 
 would disappear, would they? — No, with me they 
 would be permanent, and amount to a permanent dis- 
 ablement. 
 
 3221. But it would not disable yOu from following 
 any other employment, would it? — No, not when the 
 effects had passed away. 
 
 3222. Would the effects pass away after a very short 
 interval ?— Sulphuretted hydrogen is so insidious that 
 with me it produced a succession of sick headaches, so 
 that it was four years, from 1878 to 1882, before I was 
 able to take up work again. 
 
 3223. You were inoapacdtated from all forrnis of 
 work foir four years, were you ? — Yes ; it lowered my 
 constitution to such an extent that I was away four 
 years. 
 
 3224. Is there any doubt in your mind that your sick- 
 ness was due to that cause ?^ — I have nio Houibt. 
 
 3225. Did the doctor so certify? — ^Yes, my father 
 took me to Sir George Burrows, and he had no doubt 
 about it, and ordered me to give up my work. 
 
 3226. Since those four years have you had a recur- 
 rence of the same symptoms % — Yes, in the course of my 
 duties. I take oare not to expose myself to the fumes 
 for very long, because it would not do for me, but some- 
 times I gO' home suffering from sick headache. 
 
 3227.- Are you sure it is from that paiticular cause? 
 —Yes, it is from that particular cause. 
 
 3328. What have you to say as to bisulphide of 
 carbon ? — I want to distinguish between the manufac- 
 ture and use of it. I think in the latter there are more 
 dangerous risks. I have heard of people being in- 
 capacitated far more in the use of it in the india- 
 rubber trade, but the diseases that arise do not show 
 themselves among those who manufacture it so much ; 
 it is chiefly the women in the rubber trade who are 
 exposed to it, while in the manufacture of it I have not 
 come across any evil symptoms. If precaution is 
 taken, any effects can be prevented in the manufacture, 
 but it is when the substance comes to be used that the 
 evils begin to appear. 
 
 3229. May similar symptoms appear in the manufac- 
 tuT« unless precautions are taken?— Yes, and what we 
 ask is to see that ihe " best practicable means " arn 
 used to prevent the escape of noxious vapours. The 
 words in the Act are " alkali, etc." There are 20 sub- 
 stances named in the schedules to our Acts. 
 
 3230. Is the manufacture of bisulphide of carbon 
 entirely under your inspection? — ^Yes, and I am glad 
 to say there is very much less being made now for use 
 in the various trades ; other things are being used 
 instead. 
 
 3231. Are the symptoms arising from arsenious acid 
 and arseniuretted hydrogen the same? — Totally dif- 
 erent. 
 
 3232. They are not symptoms of arsenic poisoning ? 
 — ^No, I am familiar with the symptoms of arsenic 
 poisoning in the course of my duties in works produc- 
 ing arsenic (arsenious acid). That comes under the 
 best practicable means, and the cases of arseniuretted 
 hydrogen that have come under my notice are from 
 totally different trades. Again, there are other 
 arsenic compounds with different symptoms that are 
 given. 
 
 3233. Then with regaird to binitro-benzol, what do 
 you say? — That comes under our notice in the use of 
 nitric acid. I have not much to say upon it, because 
 it has been already dealt with. As Dr. Arlidge has 
 said, we are confronted with a new set of symptoms 
 which require the greatest care. I have heard of cases 
 of coma from its inhalation, followed by death. You 
 cannot call it an industrial accident, I think, if in 
 
 following the course of duty some change in the nature 
 and purity of the materials used takes place. Chemical 
 reactions take place in batches and charges, and in 
 some particular charges there might be greater evo- 
 lution. 
 
 3234. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Would not you call that 
 an industrial accident? — It might happen in the usual 
 course of employmemit. 
 
 3235. (Chairman.) But if it happens at a given 
 moment of time, what would you say ? — Over the period 
 of the batch or charge, yes. 
 
 3236. Would it be a question of hours or minutes? 
 — It would ba a question of hours. 
 
 3237. Do all these cases of poisoning which you have 
 mentioned arise soanetimes in the manufacture and 
 sometimes in the use of these things, and sometimes 
 in both ? Taking the manufacture, are they all manu- 
 factured in alkali or chemical works ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3238. Do they all come under the category of alkali 
 or chem.iical works? — ^Yes. 
 
 3259. Would alkali works come under the category 
 of chemical works ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3240. So that if the committee, for example, were 
 to put into the schedule any case of poisoning by any 
 chemical product happening to any worker in any 
 cheonical works, it would cover all those cases, would 
 it ? — It would cover all those oases except as to the use. 
 
 ■ 3241. As, for example, bisulphide of carbon in india- 
 rubber works ? — ^Yes ; or of chlorine products in bleach- 
 ing works. 
 
 3242. Have you any statistical information with re- 
 ference to thesei diseases ? — No, I have no statistical in- 
 formation. Wa only deal with the gas escaping as 
 affecting the public outside. 
 
 3243. (Mr. Cunynghame.) In the cases you have men- 
 tioned, I .am not quite clear whether all of them, or 
 any of them, and if so, which, are to be described as 
 accidents. Have you a pretty clear conception of what 
 ought to be the meaning of the word accident ? — Yes ; 
 perhaps my conception and yours would not agree. 
 
 3244. In what respect would they not agree ? — In the 
 case of binitro-benzol, I should not agree as far as any 
 evolution of a noxious gas during the course of manu- 
 facture, would come under the nature of general em- 
 ployment. 
 
 3245. Yes, it is a general employment, but the ques-' 
 tion is whether the thing that has occurred is an 
 accident, or the contraction of a disease ? — I am looking 
 at the process. 
 
 3246. I am looking at the way the illness occurs. 
 Have you clearly in your mind the distinction between 
 an accident and the incurring of a disease. Let me 
 give you an instance. If a large reservoir of gas were 
 to leak, and a mian got poisoned, though it might take 
 three hours to poison him, that from the point of view 
 I am putting, would be an accident, would it not? — 
 Tesi, I agree. 
 
 3247. But if the reservoir lea.ked, and he went there 
 day after day, and week after week, and gradually 
 aocumulated into himself a slow poison, would ono 
 call that the contraction of a disease ? — ^Yes, I agree. 
 
 3248. Speaking from that point of view, are the 
 results! from these gases to be regarded as the contrac- 
 tion of disease or as accidents? — I regard them as the 
 contraction of disease in consequence of the necessary 
 variations. You cannot always rely on a man in one 
 department doing exactly what he is told, and the pro- 
 duct sent to another department may vary slightly in 
 its composition. 
 
 3249. Take, for instance, nitrous fumes ; it is clear,' 
 is not it, that if a man is suddenly exposed tO' an out- 
 rush of nitrous fumes, he would be very ill, and that 
 would! be an accident, would it not? — Yes. 
 
 3250. Would there be an effect produced upon that 
 man by the very slow daily absorption of nitrous 
 fuimes, not sufficient on any one occasion to cause am 
 acoidenlt, and yet sufficient ifco deteriorate his heaHih? 
 — I do not know of such cases. 
 
 3251. The only cases you know of then are accidents, 
 are they T — Yes. 
 
 3152. With chlorine it is plain, is not it, that a 
 sudden outburst, or rather a rapid outburst, might 
 make a man ill ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3253. Do yoiu know of an ilbiesis produced by a simall 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 101 
 
 •daily absolution of chlorine, not sufficient on any one 
 occasion to lamount to an accident ? — ^No, but the oop.- 
 ditionis' may be there ; if a man rgoes deliberaitely in 
 to get Ithe work done, tihere may Ibe a larger amoufflt 
 of gas in tthe place he has to go imto. 
 
 3264. Then that would be an accident clearly, would 
 not it ? — It would be his own doing. 
 
 3255. If a man goes into a chamber where there is 
 only supposed to be a small amount of chlorine, and 
 
 in reality there happens to be from some cause a con- 
 siderable amount there, and he getsi poisoned and is 
 taken home, that would clearly be an accident, would 
 it not ? — ^No, I think not, because he deliberately went 
 in on his own account. 
 
 3256. That does not matter. We must read " acci- 
 dent " ia the sense in which it is used in the Bill. 
 What I ask is, is it possible to contract an illness 
 through the absorption daily of a very small amount 
 of chloriije, which would not entirely incapacitate on 
 any one occasion? — No, there may be cumulative effects,, 
 producing bronchitis, and then the men would leave 
 the occupation. 
 
 3257. Have you known cumulative effects, produce . 
 •bronchitis ? — Yes, and a man leaving his occupation. 
 
 3258. But have you known of cumulative effects not 
 producing bronchitis? — ^Yes, what some men could 
 rstand others could not stand. 
 
 3259. Do you know of any pazrticular case of chronic 
 bronchitis being produced by daily working in chlorine 
 works 1 — Tes, I know of a case in the works I was at. 
 
 3260. How long had the man been working? — ^He 
 might not be working more than a w'eek perhaps, but 
 It would be sufficienit. H© would try to go on with his 
 work, but could not, and he would give it up, and the 
 ■bronchitis would not recur. 
 
 3261. He would be ill, and he would leave his occu- 
 rpation and go to something else? — ^Yes. 
 
 3262. Would that be due to an idiosyncracy ?— I 
 •should call it an idiosyncracy. 
 
 3263. Would an oTdinaj^. man.be able to work in 
 small quantities of chlorine without contracting bron- 
 "chitds 1 — No, I think they are special men. They axe 
 to be found in every works. They choose the employ- 
 ment because it is well paid and the hours are shoiifc. 
 There are always men ready to try it. 
 
 , 3264. Would an ordinary man, working in small 
 1 quantities of chlorine, who had not this idiosyncracy, 
 be likely to contract a disease from his occupation? — 
 I should say he would be liable to it. 
 
 3265. Tihere is, then, in your opinion, a chlorine 
 -djsease. Is chlorine, in addition to being capable of 
 ipiroducing an accident, capable of producing also what 
 
 may be a disease? Never mind about the man's 
 volition, that has nothing to do with it ? — Yes, I should 
 «ay it is possible. I should not call it a chlorine 
 "disease ; I should call it bronchitis. 
 
 3266. Yaii would siay that small quantities of ohlorin?* 
 are capable of producdug bronchitis, would you? — 
 What I have been told by medical men is bronchitis. 
 
 3267. Can it produce phthisis, for instance? — I have 
 never heard so. 
 
 3268. You say that sulphuretted hydrogen when 
 breathed in small quantities will. produce a lasting 
 
 -disi3ase? — ^A condition that will last some time and 
 require medical treatment. 
 
 3269. Woiuld an ordinary man who had not this 
 'idiosyncracy be likely to catch it? — Not an ordinary 
 "man. I have met a few like myself. 
 
 3270. Those men who get it are men with the idio- 
 'synicracy, are they? — Yes, but with chlorine it would 
 
 be the other way about. 
 
 3271. It is abnormal men, then, who can stand the 
 '■chlorine, is it?: — ^Yes. 
 
 3272. Just as it is abnormal men who cannot stand 
 'the sulphuretted hydrogen? — Yes. 
 
 3273. I suppose in the chlorine works the men go in 
 •with helmets orsrer them? — No, with pieces of flannel 
 
 which come up under the nostrils. 
 
 3274. Are you aware that in some works where 
 -chlorine is made the men have helmets and air tubes, 
 ■like a diver wears ? — They may appear in the books, but 
 
 I have not seen them. They may put thism on to 
 -show people when they go round. 
 
 3275. It is the popular belief, is it not, that the 
 
 effects of chlorine are cured by a certain amount of 
 alcohol? — It is. 
 
 3276. Aiid that induces a certain amount of drink- 
 ing, I suppose? — When the Commission went to New- 
 castle, one dd man told them that he was " drunk every 
 night of his life, thank God ! " 
 
 3277. That, I suppose, represents the habits of a cer- 
 tain section of the chlorine workers? — Yes, but I am 
 glad to say not all. 
 
 3278. What permanent effects do bisulphide of car- 
 bon produce? — ^That I think you had better get from 
 others, because I have no personal knowledge of the 
 matter. 
 
 3279. Then what are the effects of arsenious acid 
 and' arseniuretted hydrogen? — There is a difference 
 between the different symptoms. 
 
 '3280., Have you any knowledge as to the effects of 
 binitro-ibenzol ? — I thought I woiuld direct the Com- 
 mittee's attention to it, buit 1 see Dr. Haldane has dealt 
 with the question. I have known of a case of coma, 
 followed by death, as. the result. 
 
 3281. But those would be rather accidents, would 
 they hot, for which the Bill provides already? — ^Yes. 
 
 3282. In regard to the use of all these things there 
 are .rules, ane there not? — ^Yes', I have the rules with 
 me. Our Act contains a provision for sanction of 
 rules during the conduct of operations 
 
 - 3283. Have you made rules for the workmen in those 
 cases ? — ^Yes, there is a. provision in our Act that rules 
 can be drawn up by the eniployer, and they can be 
 
 . reviseii by the Local Government Board, and when the 
 President signs the rules they are sanctioned as rules 
 governing the operation, and fines can be recovered by 
 the employer for any breach of them. 
 - 3284. In those cases it is the employer who proposes 
 the rules, is it ? — ^It is the employer who proposes the 
 rules, and the Local Government Board sanction them. 
 
 3285. Have the Home Office jiiade any rules under 
 [the Factory Acts ? — Yes, there are certain rules made 
 iby them in addition. 
 
 3286. Will you kindly put in a copy of your rules ? 
 — Yes, such rules as have received sanction., I can 
 send you the rules draiBted by the United Alkali Com- 
 pany.. I do not know whether you have in view calling 
 the secretary of the United Alkali Company, who has 
 considerable e;xperience. 
 
 3287. Would the secretary present the subject from 
 the Cimployers' point of view ? — Yes, and no doubt could 
 give you valuable statistics about sick clubs. At 
 Bristol we had a sick club, but it was comparatively 
 sinail. There were only about 400 or 500 men on the 
 wage^sheet, .and a large number of these would not be 
 process men, but masons, joiners, fitters, etc., but they 
 would have sick clubs at aU. the works at Widiies and 
 St. Helens, and you could get data of very considerable 
 value. 
 
 .3288. Is there a trade union of the men in the 
 chemical industry ? — I have no knowledge on that sub- 
 ject. I expect they have one, but I have no direct 
 knowledge. 
 
 3289. (Dr. Legge.) You spoke of sulphuric acid as 
 affecting the men's 'diests in such a way that they could 
 not continue to work in it? — Some cases are known 
 to me. 
 
 3290. As a rule it aiffects everybody a little at first, 
 I suppose ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3291. And the workers usually get accustomed to it? 
 —I do not know. It is a very difficult thing to get 
 accustomed to it. You cannot get accustomed to it in 
 large quantities. 
 
 3292. They would not be incapacitated from finding 
 other employment, would they? — ^No. 
 
 3293. And the probability is, I suppose, they would 
 find other work in the same factory? — Yes. 
 
 3294. Do you regard sulphuric acid fumes as setting 
 up a definite disease. It is stated in nearly all the 
 books on occupational diseases that the men in the 
 sulphuric acid departments of chemical works are the 
 healthiest ; have you any knowledge as to that ? — ^That 
 is in the first process, not in the concentration of it. 
 The conoentraJfced product is a very different thing. In 
 the first stage they choose married men, and they are 
 able to follow their ocoupa/tions steadily without 
 illness. 
 
 Mr. B. V. 
 
 Carpent6r, 
 F.l.c. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
102 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE: 
 
 Mr. S. F. 
 
 Carpenter, 
 
 F.I.C. 
 
 7 Dec. 1906. 
 
 3295. There is one chemical which you have not men- 
 tioned at all— hydro-cjanio acid. Do you know of any 
 illness produced by that?— Yes, I have known of it as 
 contributory to death. 
 
 3296. (^Mr. Cunynghame.) Is there a definition in 
 the Act of Parliament of alkali works ?^-YeSj there is 
 a strict definition. 
 
 3297. Do you remember what it is ? — ^Yes. The de- 
 finition chiefly refers to the decomposition of salt or 
 chloride of sodium with sulphuric acid with evolution 
 of muriatic acid. 
 
 3298. How do you come to inspect works where 
 chlorine is used ?- Under the words, "Alkali, etc., 
 works," which is the title of our Act. The Act of 1881 
 includes seven groups. "Etc." is defined by the 
 schedule. 
 
 3399. Are they mentioned in the Act?— Yes, in the 
 schedule, and in the schedule to the Aot of 1892 other 
 works were mentioned ; we have a new consolidating 
 Aot coming into operation on the 1st of January, and 
 
 we shall be able to comprise all this ; so that there- , 
 are 21 groups in the schedule in addition to alkali. 
 works. " Alkali work " is simply defined as one " for 
 the manufacture of alkali, sulphate of soda, or sulphate 
 of potash, in which muriatic acid gas is evolved, and., 
 for the purpose of this definition the formation of any 
 sulphate in the treatment of copper ores by common 
 salt or other chlorides shall be deemed to be a manu- 
 facture of sulphate of soda." 
 
 3300. The chief object of your Acit is to protect 
 the public and not the workmen, I understand ? — Tlialt 
 is so ; tout in so far as the employer wishes his manu- 
 facture to be conducted in conformity with the Alkali. 
 Act requirements, if his workmen do not comply with 
 his desires, the Act provides these rules, of which I 
 will send a copy. 
 
 3301. Then the words "alkali, etc.," as conferring 
 jurisdiction on your Department, are not quite as wide 
 as the words "chemical works," are they? — No, it onljr 
 means certain chemical operations. 
 
 TWELFTH DAT. 
 
 Friday, 14 th December 1906. 
 
 PBZBENT : 
 
 Mr. Heebebt Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Mr. Henet Ctotynghame, c.b. i Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Professor Clutord Aiibtttt, r.E.s. | Mr. T. E. Bettant (Acting Secretary).. 
 
 Mr. W. Robinson, m.d., m.s., r.E.c.s., called in, and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. 
 Sobitison, 
 
 M.D., M.S., 
 F.E.C.S. 
 
 i Dec. 1906. 
 
 3302. You are a surgeon in practice in the county of 
 Durham? — ^I am. 
 
 3303. And you are honorary surgeon to the County 
 of Durham and Sunderland Eye Infirmary ? — Yes. 
 
 3304. You have a knowledge of the disease known as 
 bottle-finishers' cataract? — I have. 
 
 3305. Is that a disease frequent among bottle- 
 finishers ? — Yes, it is very frequent. I have the figures 
 of the three works that are at present in Sunderland 
 and its district, and I find that there are 374 men 
 working in bottle works, ani of these 374 128 are 
 bottle-finishers. I have described the work in a paper 
 which I have here — (handing in the same) — and which 
 was published in the British Medical Journal of 24th 
 January, 1903. The bottle-finisher puts on the 
 rim to the neck of the bottle, and he has to look 
 into a big furnace, half the size of this room, 
 where the temperature is said to be about 2,500 deg. F. 
 I have calculated that he looks into that furnace 
 during the week something like 5^ hours. The conse- 
 quence is that a very large proportion of these bottle- 
 finishers get cataract. I find there are 27 men who are 
 receiving superannuation allowances from the Bottle 
 Makers' Society who have been bottle-finishers. There 
 are 122 at work, and 27 who are incapacitated from 
 work on account of cataract. If you add 122 to 27, 
 it makes 149, which works out roughly 1 in 6 who have 
 now cataract at a comparatively early age ; which is an 
 enormous proportion, of course. 
 
 3306. But the 27 are men who have contracted 
 cataract over a considerable period of years, I pre- 
 sume ? — 'Yes. 
 
 3307. And the 122, of course, are men employed 
 at one particular moment ? — Yes. 
 
 3308. Perhaps if you were to take into consideration 
 all the men employed during all the period of years in 
 which those 27 had contracted cataract, there may not 
 have been 122, but perhaps a thousand? — No, not a 
 thousand. 
 
 3309. I will not say a thousand, but considerablyr 
 more than 122 ? — Yes ; but on the other hand, there- 
 are some men who have contracted cataract who are- 
 not getting any superannuation allowance. The-- 
 fact is, that if a man leaves his work as a bottle - 
 maker, he is no longer a member of the society, and, . 
 consequently, he is not entitled to superannuation, 
 allowance, and some men leave when they begin to ■ 
 feel their eyes affected, I am told. And then, in addi- 
 tion to that, there are a number of bottle-finishers at 
 work who have commencing cataract. I have a letter ■ 
 here from one of their secretaries, from whom I have 
 made inquiries. Perhaps I may read it. 
 
 3310. If you please ?— This is from the local secre- 
 tary of the Glass Bottle-makers' Trade Society, at. 
 Seaham Harbour : " I am sorry that I cannot furnish .. 
 you with all the information you require, as there is so 
 little time, and it is very difficult to get to know all the v 
 cases of cataract there is, as men don't care to give 
 publicity to the same ; if I had time, say a few months, 
 I might have got to know a great many cases by private ■ 
 inquiry ; there is many young men that don't care to- 
 let it be known who have cataract, but there is 6 cases^ 
 in our factory of men that is incapacitated through 
 cataract ; there is 54 finishers working in our factory 
 at the present time." Those are the lowest numbers of " 
 the three works, 6, and 54. " I myself am only 42 
 years old, and the sight of one of my eyes is gone, and 
 if anything was to happen to the other I would be 
 done work, and I believe there is many like me if in- ' 
 quiries were to be made. There has been no precau- 
 tion taken as yet in the Seaham Harbour Works." 
 
 3311. Do the figures that you have given cover the = 
 whole country ?— No ; only my own district of Sunder- 
 land, Southwick, and Seaham Harbour. Those are all ' 
 the bottle works whose worst men come to the Sunder- 
 land Eye Infirmary. 
 
 3312. Have you any knowledge of the occurrence of 
 cataract among this class of workers in other parts of' 
 the country?— -I have not. It only occurs in bottle-- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 103 
 
 makers. It does not occur in other glass workers, such 
 as make glass jars, because, in making tumblers and 
 things of that kind, the men do not look into the fur- 
 jiace. The melted metal is led out into little troughs 
 which they call " pots," and consequently the workmen 
 do not look into th6 bright heat and light. There is 
 only a little trough at the side of the furnace into 
 which the metal is led and into which they look. 
 
 3313. So that, so far as you are aware, this particu- 
 _lar disease is limited to that one class of workers? — 
 
 Yes ; it used to be called bottle-blowers' cataract, but 
 that was before I wrote my paper. But it never 
 occurs in the blowers, because the blower never looks 
 into the furnace. It takes about five men to make a 
 bottle, each person doing a certain part of the work, 
 -and the blower never looks into the furnace. He has 
 a long iron tube about 6ft. in length, and he blows the 
 bottle ; but he is not looking into the hot furnace at 
 -all ; consequently he does not get cataract unless he 
 has been a gatherer (that is another man who looks 
 _into the furnace), and afterwards becomes a finisher. 
 The men are promoted from the lowest up to the 
 highest grades, and the finisher is the last step really ; 
 ,a bottle-maker is promoted to be a finisher last of all'. 
 "That is the highest step he can attain to. 
 
 3314. What is a gatherer? — ^A. gatherer is a lad, 
 generally an apprentice, who takes a long iron 
 tube, about 6 feet in length, and dips it into the fur- 
 nace to get the requisite amount of metal to make the 
 bottle ; he hands it on to the bottle^blower, and after 
 the bottle-blower has finished with it he hands it on 
 to the finisher. A boy, if he goes to ibe a bottle-maker, 
 
 "begins bottle-making generally as a taker-in ; that is 
 to say, he takes the finished bottle and carries it into 
 the annealing chamiber. Then he is promoted to be 
 what they call a putter-up or wetter-off, when his duty 
 is to put up the iron pipe, on which the bottles 
 are blown, into the furnace to heat it to the requisite 
 heat, and before it does that he knocks off the remains 
 •of the old bottle. Then, after being, at that work a 
 -year or two, he becomes a gatherer, whose duty I have 
 :just described who gathers up a certain amount of 
 metal. 
 
 3315. Then a gatherer is also liable to cataract? — 
 A gatherer very rarely gets cataract, because 
 
 \he is a young man as a rule, and does not 
 Temain many years at that particular job. I 
 'have been told that there is one gatherer who has 
 ■cataract in one eye, but whether it is true or not I 
 am not a;ble to say, because I have not seen him. Then, 
 after his time as a gatherer is finished, he gets pro- 
 moted to lb© a bottle-blower, and a certain proportion 
 ■of them, if they are very expert, get promoted to he 
 bottle-finishers, and the ibottle-finisher is the man who 
 Aas been longest at the work, and has probably been a 
 gatherer before. I have described the work in detail 
 in my paper. 
 
 3316. What is approximately the minimum period 
 within which cataract occurs among these classes of 
 workers ? — The youngest bottle-finisher I find who has 
 
 .had cataract is a man who had the cataract removed at ' 
 the age of 36. 
 
 3317. How many years are they at work before they 
 get it ? — It usually begins before 50, whereas the ordi- 
 nary senile cataract rarely begins before 60. 
 
 3318. But if a man was at work, say, for a year, 
 -would he be liable to contract this disease? — ^I should 
 -not think so. They all begin as apprentices, you see, 
 
 and they have probably gone there at the age of 14 
 or 15, and cataract does not begin, as a rule, till be- 
 
 - tween 40 and 50 
 
 3319. So that it is not only the nature of the work ; 
 •i;here is also the chance of its being due to advancing 
 
 years? — ^No, I should not say so, because it begins in 
 a particular way — not in the ordinary way in which 
 the ordinary senile cataract develops. 
 
 3320. But supposing that a young man went to 
 • work, say, at 25, and was employed as a finisher, 
 -and was employed at it continuously for five years, 
 
 "Would he be liable to get cataract ? — ^He might ; but of 
 
 - course he does not begin as a finisher right off — they 
 cannot. 
 
 3321. As a matter of fact, such cases do not occur, 
 '"because they do not start as finishers so young? — That 
 
 is so. 
 
 3322. At about what ago do they start to be 
 ^£nishers ? — Generally between 20 and 30, because only 
 
 a proportion ever become expert enough to become jf^ j^ 
 finishers. They make an enormous number of bottles Robinson 
 m a day, and they do them very quickly ; I forget how m d m s' 
 many gross. kK.c.s." 
 
 3323. The point I want to get at is this : How many , ^^ : 
 
 years would a man be at work at this particular pro- ^* JJeo^lSOo- 
 cess before he was liable to contract cataract?— I 
 
 should say the average age is somewhere between 45 
 and 50. 
 
 3324. I am not speaking of the age, but of the 
 number of years at this work ? — If be began at 14 or 
 15 it would be about 30 years. 
 
 3325. I mean in this particular process. Siipposing 
 a man was put to this particular process, and was 
 at work at it for a year, no matter what his age was, 
 would he be likely to get cataract ? — ^Not in a year. I 
 should say more like 20 years, on an average. 
 
 3326. After 20 years at this particular process? — 
 I should think so. 
 
 3327. And is it a disease of very gradual growth ? — 
 Yes, it comes on very gradually. A man can generallyi 
 work, after the first symptoms show themselves, for 
 from two to four years, and if he uses atropine drops, 
 which dilate the pupil, he can probably go on a year 
 or two longer, because the first signs of opacity in the 
 lens are opposite the centre of the pupil, at the back 
 of the lens. There are diagrams in- my paper which 
 illustrate this. 
 
 3328. Then a man can have this disease of the eye 
 in a mild form, and go on working for a number of 
 years ? — Yes ; and I should think that several of the 
 122 finishers have commencing cataract. 
 
 3329. If this disease were included in the Schedule 
 to the Workmen's Compensation Act, and men were 
 able to get compensation for it, do you think that em- 
 ployers would cause their men to submit to an examin- 
 ation of the eye, and would discharge men who showed) 
 any likelihood of contracting this disease? — ^I do not 
 think so, because when a man goes to a bottle-works 
 he must go as a youth, and be trained up in it. He 
 cannot suddenly take up the work. They might ask 
 a boy to submit to such an examination ibefore he 
 entered, or at an early stage. But what I think they 
 would certainly do would be to insist on the men wear- 
 ing coloured glasses, either dark blue or very dark 
 smoked glasses. Since I recommended protective 
 glasses I find that about half the finishers at one 
 bottle-works use goggles now, and about a quarter in 
 the second bottle-works, but in the third no goggles 
 are used. At first the men could not wear goggles, be- 
 cause they perspire most profusely owing to the heat, 
 and the moisture condensed on the glass, but they now 
 us© a preparation which I thiiik is a kind of soap 
 called lasin, which prevents the moisture condensing 
 on the glasses, so that they can see clearly ; and since 
 they have used lasin they can wear goggles, and a cer- 
 tain proportion of them do wear them. 
 
 3330. Has that use of goggles had any effect upon 
 the disease ? — I think so, because the number of cases 
 that we have seen in our eye infirmary has diminished 
 very considerably since I wrote my paper four years 
 ago. In 1902 we treated 18 cases of hard cataract, 
 which is a very large proportion. 
 
 3331. Was that among the bottle workers only? — 
 Tes. 
 
 3332. (Professor Allbwtt.) Can you tell us what ia 
 the normal incidence of cataract? — It must be very 
 small, ibecause Sunderland and the district has a work- 
 ing-class population, and nearly all the cases come to 
 the infirmary ; and we operated upon in that year 
 (1902) only 75 cases of hard cataract (senile and bottle- 
 finishers'). 
 
 3333. In your whole number of out-patients? — That 
 19 in the in-patients. We do not keep a tabulated 
 record of out-patients, but these were all operated 
 upon as in-patients. I am not speaking of those who 
 were not operated upon. I should say that the disease 
 is 10 or 20 times as common in bottle-finishers as it is 
 in the ordinary population — at least that, I should say. 
 
 3334. (Chairman.) You were saying that you had 
 18 cases in 1902 ?— We had 18 new cases in 1902. In 
 1903 we only had six new cases, in 1904 we only had! 
 two new cases, and last year we had only one. Alto- 
 gether we had 27 cases in four years from a population 
 of 122 bottle-finishers. 
 
 3335. Has the number of workpeople employed in 
 
104 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 M,: W. 
 Bobinaon, 
 M.D., M.S., 
 
 F.E.C.S. 
 
 ■I Dec. 1906. 
 
 this process diminished within the last few years? — 
 Yes, it has diminished. In 1902 there were four bottle 
 works, and now there are only three ; but the one that 
 was closed was a small works. They say that the 
 diminution is on account of foreign competition. 
 
 3336. The number of persons employed has gradually 
 diminished ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3337. But it has not diminished in anything like 
 the same proportion as the diminution in the cases of 
 cataract? — No. Probably a good many of those 18 cases 
 in 1902 were cases, that I took into the infirmary for 
 purposes of observation at that particular time, when 
 I was working at the subject, that I might watch the 
 disease developing. 
 
 3338. So that that is really an aibnormal figure? — 
 Tes, I think so. 
 
 3339. Can you differentiate this form of cataract from 
 ordinary cataiaat? — I think I could in every case, 
 because I know exactly how it develops. 
 
 3340. {Professor Allbutt.) You surely could tell on aJi 
 operation, I gather from this ? — I could tell much 
 better if I saw it at the beginning. I can tell it from 
 the way the cataract develops ; it begins at the back 
 of the lens instead of near tie centre or at the peri- 
 phery, and it is very rare for senile cataract to develop 
 in that way, though I believe it does so very rarely. 
 We have had one case where a gentleman developed 
 cataract in exactly the same way as a bottle-maker 
 does, and he was not exposed to heat, but it is ex- 
 tremely rare. Besides, the fact of its occurring in 
 bottle workers at a comparatively early age would 
 be sufficient, I think, to show that it is due to that 
 work. 
 
 3341. (Chairman.) Is there any term by which this 
 form of cataract is known ? — I call it bottle-finishers' 
 cataract. It is a posterior cortical cataract. 
 
 3342. And bottle-finishers would not get cataract 
 of other kinds ? — ^They might. 
 
 3343. But not from their trade, I mean?— No, I do 
 not think they would. I have never seen it. 
 
 3344. Then if the disease were scheduled as posterior 
 cortical cataract, would that cover all cases of bottle- 
 finishers' cataract and exclude ordinary cataract? — I 
 think on the whole it would ; there would be very rare 
 ecsoeptions to it. But I should not call it by that name. 
 I should just call it ' bottle-finishers' cataract, because 
 the majority of medical men would not be able to dif- 
 ferentiate posterior cortical cataract from ordinarj 
 cataracts. 
 
 3345. They would be able to understand precisely 
 what was meant by bottle finishers' cataract? — They 
 would know then that it was a cataract occurring in 
 bottle finishers — that is all. 
 
 3346. But a bottie finisher is liable to oataracc JTisS 
 as a bootmaker is or a member of Parliament? — Tes, 
 but, you see, it begins in bottle finishers at a much 
 earlier age. I think we hardly ought to have had one 
 ordinary cataract in the 122 finishers. 
 
 3347. Then, in your opinion, there would be practi- 
 cally no risk, if the disease were described as, bottle- 
 finishers' cataract, of injustice being done to employers 
 in having to compensate men who really suffered from 
 ordinary cataract, which is prevalent among the 
 general population ? — The risk is so small that I think 
 it ought to be neglected. 
 
 3348. (Professor Allbutt.) You would suggest that 
 there should be a special referee, of course ? — ^I think so. 
 I am quite sure that the ordinary medical man would 
 not be able to distinguish the two. 
 
 3549. To put it in another way, it is important that 
 it should not merely be a presumption, but that by 
 meanjs of the ophthalmoscope he should be able to decide 
 definitely on the complaint? — Yes. 
 
 3350. And you say there are grounds on which he 
 can decide? — ^Yes. 
 
 3361. The duration of the morbid process it is, of 
 course, extremely diflScult to estimate — it extends over 
 many years ; this being so, the goggle trials must as yet 
 be imperfect, because they have not been used long 
 enough ; but so far as you ha.ve had experienice, do you 
 think they are acting as a preventative of the disease? 
 I think their use tends to show a diminished develop- 
 ment of the disease in those who have used -them. 
 
 3352. I think you said the disease is permanent when 
 •once incurred? — ^Tes. 
 
 3353. How long is it since goggles have been usedf 
 ^Only since 1903 — ^that is, three years. 
 
 3354. And you thdnk they may, perhaps, have 
 arrested the morbid process in certain cases where- 
 it had already commenced ? — I think it is probable. 
 
 3355. There is only one other question I should like 
 to ask you, and that is, taking the mean incidence of 
 this form of cataract as being ten years earlier than 
 senile cataract, what are the extremes ?— The youngest, 
 man who had a cataract operated upon was 36, and 
 they are all practically under 60, I should say. 
 
 3356. The oldest might ibe about 60? — I have not a 
 reoord of that just now, but there are six cases- 
 described in my paper Whose ages are 59, 59, 59 (this. 
 is when they were operated upon; some had been off' 
 work a few years probably), 53, 40, and 55. 
 
 3357. Let us suppose the case of a man of 58 ; is thafr 
 about the time it occurs ? — Somewhere about 55 as an 
 average, I should say. 
 
 3358. lEven then, in a case that might be senUe a 
 skilled observer could practically always decide, you 
 think, whether it was so or not ? — I thinik so. 
 
 3359. (Mr. Cunynghame.) To what rays do you attri- 
 bute this cataract — ^the heat rays or the light rays that- 
 come from the furnace ? — I should say certainly the heat- 
 is the more important of the two, because it is so very- 
 great ; it is 2,500 degrees. 
 
 3360. And do you think the goggles keep out the- 
 radiant heat as much as the light rays? — ^Yes. I have- 
 stated that glass has the property of allowing only 30' 
 per "cent, of the heat rays to pass through, so that. 
 Would reduce it from 100 per cent, to 30 per cent. 
 
 3361. Do you know whether a thick glass, or cer- 
 tainly two glasses, one on the top of the other, wotdd' 
 be better in the case of heat, because then you get the 
 glasses becoming successively cooler? — I do not know; 
 I am not sufficiently an expert on that point to say. 
 
 3362. According to that, you see, the double glass- 
 would allow the heat to dissipate more easily from the 
 fiirst glass, and then the cooler rays would strike the 
 second glass, and you would get a second dissipation? 
 —Possibly. 
 
 3363. And it might be possible in that case for you 
 to have very light tinted glasses, or almost whi-te- 
 glasses, affecting the heat rays ? — Yes. 
 
 3364. You could have three glasses if you liked ?— 
 The, moisture of course on the glass is a great trouble. 
 
 3365. I am coming to that in a minute. Experi- 
 mentally it might, possibly be found that quite light 
 coloured glasses could be used, provided you got some- 
 thing that took the heat off, because, in your opinion, 
 i; is mostly the radiant heat that induces the ca-baract! 
 — 1 will not say that it is not the actinic rays of ligh-t. 
 I am not sufficiently well up on that particular point 
 to express an opinion. 
 
 3366. At all events, according to you, as I under- 
 stand it, we have got here a practically absolute cure 
 for this disease, if it is insisted upon? — :1 would not 
 say that the prevention is absolute, but 1 think it 
 would tend very greatly to minimise the danger. 
 
 3367. And, so far as you know from talking to the 
 men or from your own experience, is there any real 
 difficulty in using these glasses? — Not now, since they/ 
 have go-t this lasin that they rub on the glasses. 
 
 3368. (Br. Legge.) In this paper which you wrote 
 on this subject three years ago you say you have been 
 unable to find ajiy reference aanong medical writers to- 
 this disease. Have you made any inquiry lately in 
 Germany? — No ; ibut after this paper -^vas written I 
 had inquiries from Germany about it from different 
 men. 
 
 3369. You Jiave not beard, for ins-tanoe, of its- 
 occurence amongst glass-workers in Cologne ? — ^No', I do 
 not know anything about that, nor have I looked the- 
 mat-ter up lately, except just within the last" few days. 
 
 3370. Have you had any cases brought to your- 
 notioe of a similar cataract arising in other indus- 
 ■tries where workers are exposed to radiant heat? — ■ 
 No ; and from the few inquiries that I made at the- 
 time I wrote this paper I could not find that it did 
 occur. I had a little information from Middles- 
 brough, from the large steel and iron works, where they 
 said they wear dark blue glasses, but they do not look, 
 apparently, into- the "furnace to -anything lite the same- 
 
 . extent as these bottle-finishers do, b&cause the latter- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 105 
 
 look five times in two minutes into the furnace when 
 they are making bottles, for a few seconds each time. 
 I have not heard of the disease in any men who work, 
 say, in steel land iron works, or puddJers. 
 
 3371. {Chairman.) Is it not the case that in the 
 blast furnaces at Middlesbrough the men look into the 
 furnace through a little window of bluish glasa? — Yee, 
 I think it is. 
 
 3372. And that would make a considerable differ- 
 ence? — ^Yes, they do use a window there. And there 
 is another man in bottle-works, who has to look 
 into the furnace, and that is the man who 
 feeds the furnace with material, who is called a 
 founder. He is given one of these square glasses to 
 look through, but he does not seem to use it often. 
 
 3373. (Dr. Legge.) I was thinking more particularly 
 of such operations as electric welding? — I have seen 
 cases of blindness following brilliant electric light. 
 
 3374. What is the nature of that blindness ? — I have Mr. W. 
 never seen it to cause cataract. It seems to exhaust Robinson, 
 the retina, but there are no visible changes in the eye m.d., m.s., 
 so far as I know. f.e.C.S. 
 
 3375. Is that a temporary condition ? — Yes, it is 14 Dec. I90R. 
 temporary usually. 
 
 3376. Have you ever known it result in permament 
 blindness ? — No. 
 
 3377. Nothing to be seen by the ophthalmoscope? — 
 No. 
 
 3378. (Professor Allbutt.) It does not cause head- 
 ache? — ^No, no symptoms. 
 
 3379. I mean the incidence of rays from the furnace ? 
 — ^No ; these bottle-mjakers are very prone to chest 
 diseases, but these are due to the dust and frequent 
 chjillls. 
 
 Mr. J. Jones, m.d., examined. 
 
 3380. (Chairman.) Are you now engaged in medical 
 practice? — ^I am. 
 
 3381. Where ? — ^At dydach, near Swansea. 
 
 3382. And at that place are situated, I believe, the 
 only nickel works in which nickel carbonyl is pro- 
 duced in the course of the manufacture ? — That is so. 
 
 3383. You have been asked by the firm of manufac- 
 turers to medically examine cases which have occurred ? 
 — I am medical officer to the workmen of the works. 
 
 3384. How many yeans has this process been in 
 operation? — The process started on May 31st, 1902. 
 
 3385. And it is still in use ? — It is still in use. 
 
 3386. During that time how many cases of nickel 
 carbonyl poisoning have there been ? — 'I find there have 
 been 42 altogether. 
 
 3387. How manv of them were fatal? — Three. 
 
 3388. And of the remainder, have any produced per- 
 manent incapacitation? — ^Not a single case. 
 
 3389. They all recover? — ^They all recover. 
 
 3390. After how long a time, ais a rule, should you 
 say? — I have taken the trouble to find out the length 
 of incapacitation in all the oases ; I am excluding the 
 mild cases, and by mild cases I mean those cases which 
 were not confined to bed at all. Excluding three of 
 the cases — two for reasons which I will give later on, 
 and one for the simple reason that I have no notes 
 about it — I find that there were 25 severe or moderately 
 severe cases, and that the average duration of incapaci- 
 tation in those cases was 15 days ; that is to say, the 
 man was back at work 16 days after the attack. 
 
 3391. Have there been any recent fatal cases? — ^The 
 last fatal case we had was in May, 1903. The last cases 
 we had was a batch of four cases, two years ago last 
 October, in 1904. 
 
 3392. Since then you have had no fatal cases ? — ^We 
 have not had a single case. 
 
 3393. Either mild, severe, or fatal ? — ^That is so. 
 
 3394. To what caTuse do you attribute the disappear- 
 ance of the disease ? — To the perfection of the appara- 
 tus and further knowledge of the effects of this particu- 
 lar gas upon the human system. 
 
 3395. Then have you any reason to hope that the 
 disease has now disappeared? — It has disappeared, bo 
 far, I may say, as human perfection and machinery 
 will allow of it. 
 
 3396. But there can, of course, be no guarantee that 
 there will not be a recrudescence of the disease? — ^No 
 one can guarantee that the plant will not break down, 
 or the like. 
 
 3397. Or that less careful employers might under- 
 take this process of manufacture ? — ^This firm hold the 
 master patent, and it is not likely that we shall have 
 any other manufacturers. 
 
 3398. Until the patent has run out? — Until the 
 patent has run out. 
 
 3399. Does the disease arise gradually over a period 
 of time, or is it contracted suddenly through some 
 leakage or other defect in the apparatus ? — ^The initial 
 
 419 
 
 symptoms of the disease occur at the time of the attack, jif^_ j-, Jones 
 at the time of the poisoning. m.d 
 
 3400. Then it is a sudden poisoning ? — It is a sudden 
 poisoning so far as the initial symptoms are concerned, 
 but a certain proportion of the men may work for 
 another shift, say 8 or Og hours after being poisoned. 
 
 3401. Is the poisoning due to any leakage or defect 
 of the apparatus? — In every case it has been due to 
 defects in the apparatus, or, as in the last batch of 
 cases, in October, 1904, where it was found that one 
 of the cooks connecting one of the big gas receivers had 
 been turU'ed on. iSince then all the cooks have been 
 protected, and w© have not bad any further cases from 
 anything of that kind. The other oases were due either 
 to repairs or else to extensions taking place ; but 
 some of the cases undoubtedly were due to defects of 
 the apparatus. At the time when these cases occurred, 
 however, the people who had most to do with it — for 
 instance. Dr. Langer and Mr. Bloomer — did not be- 
 lieve that nickel carbonyl had any deleterious effects 
 upon the human system. Dr. Langer stated at one 
 inquest I rememiber, in 1903, that he had -iswrked along 
 with Sir James Dewar in a very small laboratory 
 for months on end, and they took not even the ordi- 
 nary precautions' against nickel carbonyl, and that 
 they had run the experimental plant — at least, Dr. 
 Langer had— near Birmingham for seven years, and 
 they had no symptoms there of anything allied to 
 those of nickel carbonyl. 
 
 3402. Does he still hold that view?— No. 
 
 3403. So that it is established now that the poison- 
 ing is due to that gas? — Thoroughly. 
 
 3404. But, in your opinion, is it really an acci- 
 dental poisoning? — -It is an accidental poisoning. 
 
 3405. In fact, it is not a disease, but an accident? — 
 It is an accident in reality. 
 
 3406. Can the ailment be easily diagnosed? — I do 
 
 not think so. 
 
 3407. Not even if you know that the men are em- 
 ployed in that process? — No. The difficulty which is 
 encountered is that they diagnose other diseases as 
 that of nickel carbonyl poisoning. 
 
 3408. What other diseases? — ^I had a case of acute 
 double croupous pneumonia which was diagnosed as 
 a case of nickel carbonyl poisoning, upon which we 
 had a post mortem, and we had litigation about it 
 afterwards. I had another case, of fish poisoning, 
 which I think was reported to the Home Office as 
 nickel carbonyl poisoning, whereas it was due to 
 poisoning by fish — by hake. 
 
 3409. What was the course of the legal proceedings 
 of which you spoke just now? — ^For compensation for 
 loss of husband, brought by the widow. 
 
 3410. Under the Workmen's Compensation Act?— 
 Yes. 
 
 3411. And that was given against the claimant, was 
 it, on the ground that it was not a case of nickel car- 
 bonyl poisoning? — Yes. 
 
 3412. Did the Court consider whether, supposing it 
 had been nickel carbonyl poisoning, compensation 
 
 O 
 
10(j 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIUEXCE: 
 
 Mr. J. Jones, ought to have been refused on the ground that it was 
 M.D. not an accident ? — I do not quite follow the question. 
 
 14 Dec. 1906. 3413. Did the Court also consider the point whether 
 
 nickel carbonyl poisoning was an accident within the 
 
 meaning of the Workmen's Compensation Act? — They 
 did not take it into consideration, tout I think they 
 would have given compensation if they had. I may 
 mention that the company have compensated in all 
 their fatal cases. 
 
 3414. {Br. Legge.) What are the symptoms produced 
 by inhalation of nickel carbonyl ? — ^You get the initial 
 symptoms which come on within, I should think, a few 
 minutes after the inhalation of the gas. You get the 
 ordinary symptoms, such as frontal headache, giddi- 
 ness, sensation of drunkenness, nausea or vomiting, 
 and you get pain in the epigastrium, or, more com« 
 monly, in the post sternal region. 
 
 3415. And later, what are the developments ? — ^I gene- 
 rally see the cases from 12 to 18 hours after the initial 
 symptoms have appeared. Then the headache persists, 
 Imt it is not so intense as during the few minutes after > 
 the seizure ; there is nausea, anorexia (loss of appetite), 
 and sleeplessness ; ibut a.bove all they complain of pain 
 l)ehind the sternum or in the epigastrium, which is 
 rendered much worse by any exertion ; simply turn- 
 ing over in bed or sitting up increases the pain, or 
 coughing, laughing, or sneezing. As long as the 
 patient is sitting down quiet at this time there is no 
 
 •dyspnoea, but as soon as ever the patient moves dyspnoea 
 becomes evident. Later, about the second day, the 
 dyspnoea is present, even when the patient is at rest, 
 •and gradually increases until the fifth or sixth day, 
 when symptoms of recovery set in, and the breathing 
 becomes less rapid. In addition to the dyspnoea, I find 
 that the temperature for the first 24 or 36 hours is 
 snlbnormal, toy the second day the temperature 
 becomes normal ; then it (gradually rises until 
 about the fifth or sixth day, but never reaches 
 any great height. Even the severe cases which 
 recovered, and two out of the three fatal cases, did not 
 register a temperature above 102. On the average the 
 temperature would be about 101 Fahrenheit. The 
 "temperature also decreases and gets lowered about the 
 fifth or sixth day. The pulse at the time of the initial 
 symptoms is very rapid, running up to 120' and 140 ; 
 hy the end of 24 hours the pulse will be considerably 
 lowered — it may reach down to 100. From this time 
 ■on it gradually increases, till about the fifth or sixth 
 day it may reach 140. There is no irregularity of 
 pulse at any time. The Hearing is unafi'ected, and no 
 noises are complained of. The skin, as a rule, is pale 
 throughout. 
 
 3416. Is there any resemblance to the condition of 
 the skin in carbon-monoxide poisoning? — It is pale, 
 but there is this exception, that you do not get the 
 cherry lips. In nickel carbonyl you always get cyanosis 
 of the lips and ears, which 'becomes evident first about 
 
 the end of 24 hours, and gradually increases in intensity 
 pari passu with rapidity of respiration. Cough is gene- 
 rally absent in these cases, and when present it is 
 
 always dry, infrequent, and trachial in character. 
 Expectoration, was present in about a sixth of the severe 
 and moderately severe cases, and then the sputum was 
 found small ' in quantity and was composed simply of 
 clear mucus. The pupils of the eye are slightly dilated, 
 but react to light and accommodation. Sleeplessness 
 persis.ts during the acute stage, tout the patients attri- 
 bute that to the condition of their chests. So far as 
 the physical signs are concerned, the movemen/ts of 
 the chest are rapid and equal on both sides. There is 
 no local decrease of movement, and there is no appre- 
 ciable dulness. About the second day the respiratory 
 murmur shows some alteration in character, the respi- 
 ratory murmur is prolonged and slightly harsh, fol- 
 lowed by a normal interval and a shorter expiratory 
 murmur. This change of character of breathing is at 
 first only noticed in the intra-scap'ular region ; as the 
 case progresses it becomes more general. In the fatal 
 cases, at least in two of them, auscultatory signs of 
 consolidation were evident all over the lungs, with, in 
 places, slight crepitations. By the fourth day the con- 
 dition of the heart shows dilatation. With regard to 
 the digestive apparatus, there is anorexia, there is no 
 great thirst, but there is marked constipation. The 
 urine is decreased in quantity, but there is no blood, no 
 albumen, and no sugar. The reflexes are normal 
 throughout. There are no twitchings, no tremors, no 
 retraction of head and neck, and no delirium, and the 
 intellect remains clear until within a few hours of 
 death. 
 
 3417. You have given the average duration of oases ; 
 do you remember what the extremes were ? — In com- 
 piling my average I excluded two cases. One case I 
 excluded, in which the duration was 22 days, on account 
 of the fact that the convalescence was protracted owing 
 to chronic bronchitis and emplysema, from which the 
 patient already suffered — a maji aged 51. 
 
 3418. Is that the longest duration ? — No, I have ex- 
 cluded another case, the duration of which was 46 days, 
 for the simple reason that the man had a streptococcal 
 sore throat and a patch of broncho-pneumonia following 
 it. Then, again, of the uncomplicated cases, cases 
 pure and simple, the longest duration was 22 days, and 
 the next to that 21 days. 
 
 3419. The firm, I believe, have carried out some ex- 
 periments on the poisonous character of nickel 
 carbonyl. Have they been published ? — No, not yet ; 
 they are still at work upon it. 
 
 3420. Would you briefly state the nature of the 
 exhaust ventilation which is employed in these cases? 
 Is it natural ventilation or is it an artificial system ? — 
 If, say, repairs are wanted to be done, or there is a 
 stoppage in a certain part of the plant, all the gas 
 enclosed in this particular part of the plant, which 
 is first disconnected from the main part of the plant, 
 is blown out, and its place taken by inert gas — that is 
 to say, the place of the nickel carbonyl is taken by 
 inert gas. The gas is turned into the open air, and 
 there burnt. 
 
 3421. Have they a system of mechanical ventilation 
 throughout the works now f — ^Yes. 
 
 M]-. D. IsriEitwooD, examined. 
 
 Mr. D. 
 Isherirood. 
 
 3422. {Chaiiman.) You are, I believe, secretary of 
 the Shuttle Makers' Society? — I am. 
 
 3423. And several of your members, we understand, 
 have been suffering of late from a form of poisoning 
 which is attributed to the use of certain African box- 
 woods ? — ^It has been so. 
 
 3424. Have there been many cases of that poisoning? 
 ■ — Yes. I might say in regard to the effects from that 
 wood that practically every man, or 90 per cent, of the 
 men, who work at it for any considerable time feel the 
 effects of it. 
 
 3425. What are the effects of it ?— We fell the 
 effects of it in several ways. For instance, I 
 work among it myself, and I can give you the effects 
 on myself. I am one who did not feel it at the begin- 
 ning when it was introduced, but I find it out as I 
 go on working, and the effects I feel are in the eyes and 
 in the head, but the worst effects I have seen are in 
 Tesrard to men having to gasp — having to stick to the 
 
 bench ,and fight for breath. I have seen men younger 
 than, myself sticking to bench and fighting in that 
 way {describing the same) ito get breath. Sometimes we 
 have to take them out at the back doors into the fresh 
 air. 
 
 3426. Do any of your men have to give up work, 
 either for a short or long period, on account of this 
 poisoning? — ^Yes, many of them. We have had one, 
 \ince Dr. Legge visited us, return back to work. He 
 worked a few days on the cornel wood, what is termed 
 American dog-wood, and then he was put on to this 
 special kind of wood, this West African boxwood, as 
 it is termed, where he worked for about an hour, and 
 then we had to remove him to the back door into the 
 street. Since then he has had to give up the occu- 
 pation altogether, and is now working in a cotton mill. 
 
 3427. Have you had any fatal cases ? — ^You see, the 
 case is a very difficult one, for this simple reason, that 
 the men who have been affected by this kind of wood 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE OX IXDl'STRTAL DISEASES. 
 
 107 
 
 have gone to ordinary practitioners in the town, and 
 I take it the local doctors did not understand this 
 wood, or know anything about it ; in fact, it was only 
 through the men being continually affected by this 
 wood, and having to go to doctors and stopping off 
 work, that we had it analysed. That caused us to 
 have a suspicion that there was something wrong 
 with it. 
 
 3428. Is this wood used for other purposes besides 
 shuttle-making? — It has only been used latterly — ^for 
 the last 11 yeiars ; but in the beginning, say 11 years 
 ago, there were only one or two mills that worked a 
 little of it, until it has gradually got by itself. Now 
 with the Persimmon wood, the Persian box-wood being 
 so dear, this wood has taken its place, and is being 
 used more extensively to-day than it was during all 
 the 11 years, and it is very probable that practically 
 one-half of the shutles turned out will b© made of this 
 wood, because it takes the place of the Persian box- 
 wood, because it is cheaper. 
 
 3429. It is not used in cabinet-making, so far as you 
 are aware? — I could not answer for that. I am not 
 in the cabinet industry at all. 
 
 3430. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You said that you had seen 
 many men leaning against a bench fighting for breath ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3431. Are you sure that that is due to that particular 
 poisonous wood, and not to other causes — to dust in 
 general, for instance. If anybody asked you, how do 
 you show that that gasping for breath is due to that 
 poisonous wood and not to something else, how would 
 you answer? — I should answer in this way, that never 
 in all my time shuttle-making have I seen men affected 
 in that manner. I have never seen them affected ex- 
 cept in cases where they have been working four or 
 five hours, or two or three hours, on that class of wood. 
 But I say this, that a man who has been affected two 
 or three times with it is soon affected again. In the 
 case I have mentioned of the man who has been off 
 work, and had a bad attack of it, on his returning 
 back to work he was sooner affected with it again than 
 a man would be that had not had a first attack. I 
 find that the more a man becomes affected, the less it 
 takes to affect him again. 
 
 3432. Have you seen a good many men affected in 
 tills way yourself ; is it your own experience that you 
 are giving us, or is it what is said generally ? — I have 
 
 seen it myself. 
 
 3433. You have seen a good, many men affected in 
 this way? — Yes, I have worked in the shop since I 
 was 17 years old, and I have seen the wood introduced 
 into that shop, and I have seen the men affected in 
 that shop. 
 
 3434. You said that your Union began to inquire into 
 the matter when your attention was drawn to it, and 
 that you had had the wood analysed. What did the 
 people report to you as to how they had analysed it, for 
 instance ; do you know what they did ; did they poison 
 animals with it? — ^Yes, I have the toooks with me. 
 
 3435. What animals did they use, do you know? — I 
 attended the University at Liverpool on about four 
 occasions. Professor Harvey Gibson was the analyst 
 that analysed it. I supplied him with the wood — I 
 mean pieces of wood and sawdust from that class of 
 wood. He reported to me that he had discovered an 
 alkali, and thait they had experimented on animals — 
 cats, guinea-pigs, and monkeys, .and he reported to me 
 that tiiey had aU died. I believe the death was result- 
 ing from, syncope. I have got the book he forwarded 
 on to me, which gives one or two charts in regard to 
 the heart beats. 
 
 3456. You do not know how they tested it on the 
 cabs ; perhaps we shall hear that from someone else ? 
 — No, I did not see the operation. 
 
 3437. {Chairman.) Does your society wish to submit 
 any medical evidence to this Committee ? — I would like 
 to point out that we are only a small society at the 
 present time. We have about 300 in our society, and 
 the question for us was whether we had the men .suit- 
 able to send here to represent us, for this simple reason, 
 that we scarcely had a doctor that understood or had 
 any idea that a man was suffering from any kind of 
 poisoning from this wood. 
 
 3438. You have read Dr. Legge's report on this sub- 
 ject? — We have had Dr. Legge's report, and in his 
 
 419. 
 
 Mr. D. 
 Jsherwood. 
 
 report he gives a case which I think would supply all 
 information— and in regard to Dr. Hamilton. 
 
 3439. Then your society does not desire to submit ,4r>„„ ,Qn« 
 any medical evidence, in addition to that which is ^*^ea J9U6.^ 
 before the Committee in Dr. Legge's report and in the 
 
 evidence of Dr. Hamilton ?— We are at a loss, you see, 
 where to find a doctor who has known such a case. I 
 believe when Dr. Legge went round to the local doctors 
 they had scarcely had any idea that he was using any 
 kind of poison ; they simply, in our estimation, treated 
 it as a disease, such as asthma or bronchitis, that 
 affected the chest from the ordinary dust, probably 
 never dreaming that there was a certain class of wood 
 which contained this poison. I would also like to state 
 that since Dr. Legge made his exa,miniation we have had 
 a dust exhause applied. I remember stating to Dr. Legge 
 that I thought it was an utter impossibility in some 
 kind of this work to put an exhaust in that would take 
 away this dust. I find from inquiry in all the shops, 
 and also from examination in the shop I am working 
 in, that in certain classes of machinery, such as 
 dressing up, where the whole machinery runs one road 
 and cuts one road, it takes away the loose dust that 
 comes to the mouth of the exhaust ; but in the body in- 
 side, where you have cutters which vary from nine inches 
 in diameter to an inch, rushing round about 4,500 revo- 
 lutions per minute, and which is throwing sawdust 
 away from where the fan is, at the speed at whloh it 
 throws the dust we find it an utter impossibility for 
 the exhaust to get the dust or take it away. The dust 
 which falls into a pit, you might say, goes away ; but 
 the dust that flies this way, or spreads out in different 
 shapes, as it does, it does not take away, and it is almost 
 an utter impossibility to have an exhaust in such a 
 position that we could work, that would take the dust 
 away that comes flying from the cutter that is revolv- 
 ing between 4,000 and 5,000 revolutions per minute. 
 
 3440. Have there been any cases of this poisoning 
 within your own knowledge since these exhausts were 
 required to be applied ? — ^Yes ; we have a case at the 
 present time of a man who has been sent to the Black- 
 burn Infirmary. It is rather a strange case, and I men 
 tion it in regard to what Professar Harvey Gibson 
 pointed out to me. The man has 'been handling this 
 wood very extensively, and he has broken out all over ; 
 and in another case, from tl^e same workshop, the 
 doctor has sent some expectoration from him to be 
 examined, as he is of opinion that there is a certain 
 quantity of poison in it. That is a case which has only 
 lately occurred. 
 
 3441. Were there exhausts applied to the machinery 
 where that man was working? — Yes. 
 
 3442. For how long a time ? — I think the exhaust ha* 
 been in for six or eight months. 
 
 3443. {Professor Allhutt.) How many men do you 
 think suflfer on an average ? Would you say that one 
 in three, or more than that, suffer on the average from 
 this dust ? — ^From the effects of this wood ? 
 
 3444. Some of them do not suffer, I suppose ? — I 
 should say nine out of every ten that work at it. 
 
 3445. You mean practically that everybody suffers 
 from it, more or less, who is occupied with it ? — Yes. 
 
 3446. That is if there is no exhaust ? — Yes, and if 
 there is an exhaust. 
 
 3447. I am supposing first that there is no exhaust ? 
 — But I should like to point out that they are not in 
 air cases as bad as a man having to gasp for breath, 
 but they either suffer from their eyes running and 
 nose running, and a lot of them complain terribly 
 about pain in the forehead, headache, and sleepless- 
 nesis. I have known myself, when I have been work- 
 ing for four hours, go home, and the only desire I 
 have got — — 
 
 3448. Have you ever worked with this wood yourself ? 
 — Yes ; I have worked at it ever since it was intro- 
 duced. I have known myself when I have gone home 
 at night I have been the same as if I had been work- 
 ing among some kind of drug or suffering from some 
 kind of liquor or drunkenness. The one thing I want 
 is I have the feeling that I want to drink something, 
 the same as having a pint or two of beer, and then 
 fall asleep. I feel as if I was dosv, and have no desire 
 to do anything, only to sleep. I have sometimes felt 
 at my head to see if it is bigger than it should be. 
 
 3449. I gather from you then that nobody is abso- 
 
 O 2 
 
108 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 Mr. D. lutely immune ; that everybody Avould suffer more 
 Ishertoood. or less if there were no exhaust? — Yes. 
 
 14 Dec. 1906 3450. And instead of getting used to it they become 
 
 '. : ' more susceptible and less able to stand against it? — ■ 
 
 That is the case. 
 
 3451. What degree of incapacity does it produce^ 
 inability to go to work at all ? Supposing a man has a 
 series of relapses extending, say, over six or twelve 
 months, does that make him quite incapable of work? 
 — In that case he naturally has to give over with it. 
 We have had one man in that case. 
 
 3452. I understand that the intervals between 
 attacks get shorter and shorter ? — Yes. 
 
 3453. Will they get so short that he could not work 
 with it at all? — I believe so. 
 
 3454. Within what time? — I cannot say. 
 
 3455. I quite understand from you that, even where 
 there is an exhaust, the rapidity of the particles of 
 dust from the wheel may be such that the exhaust 
 cannot catch them up 1 — Exactly ; that is the fact. 
 
 3456. I suppose there could be no pane of glass 
 inserted ; you could not work with a glass screen ? — No. 
 
 3457. Have you ever tried any kind of handkerchief 
 or respirator over your mouth ? — ^In regard to the man 
 I have already described, he did try to put something 
 over his mouth with some cotton in it, but he could 
 not breathe as freely. 
 
 3458. It is not a laborious occupation, is it? — Yes, 
 it is pretty hard. You have to cut this very hard kind 
 of wood under the cutters, and if you do not grip it 
 firmly with both hands, and have got your knee against 
 the gangtree, as we term it, if you should slip or chock 
 it you might cut your finger off. 
 
 3459. It is a fixed attitude ?— Yes. 
 
 3460. Therefore it is not what we should call very 
 laborious. You have told us, but perhaps you will 
 repeat it, how it is that a respirator is of no service. 
 Oan you not work with it on? — ^We have never 
 thoroughly tried one to cover the mouth and nose. I 
 iiave seen this man I have mentioned, Allen, try tu 
 wear something, but he could not get his breath 
 thoroughly through it, and it aSected him through it. 
 I do not say it was a proper medical respirator or one 
 that had been advised by a doctor. I simply take it 
 that it was a thing he tried himself — a kind of pad. 
 
 3461. A pocket-handkerchief ? — It wae a piece of 
 wadding or cotton. 
 
 3462. The disease you say affects the eyes as well as 
 the nose and mouth? — ^Yes, the eyes run ; they become 
 what you might term inflamed and watery, and the 
 nose runs and is red, something the same as a man 
 having a bad cold. 
 
 3463. What the effect of the poison might be in 
 itself if it were taken in by the eye you could not 
 tell? It is through the nose and mouth chiefly, vou 
 think, that the effect is produced? — ^Yes, the greatest 
 effects I find myself are this headache and this tight- 
 ness of breathing. Sometimes, for instance, you seem 
 as if you cannot get your breath ; you feel a tight- 
 ness, the same as if your chest was swelled, or the 
 lungs would not let out the air you have in you. 
 Tlhat, I find, is the worst effect. 
 
 3464. I suppose you could not say whether that is 
 due to the mere inhaling of fine dust, or whether 
 it is due to th© effect of the poison on the whole 
 system — ^that is a medical question? — No, I could not. 
 But I do find this — that a man who works for 12 
 months on this other kind of wood is never affected, 
 and then, if he works on this kind of wood for a week, 
 you find he is affected. If you take him off it for a 
 few days' rest, or a week's rest, and he comes back 
 on the ordinary wood, then the man is all right again ; 
 but when you put him back on to this kind of wood, 
 the man starts and is affected again. That was one 
 of the causes that gave us a suspicion that there was 
 something wrong with this class of wood. I noticed 
 it myself. I watched it, and it was I who advised my 
 committeei that we should have it analysed to see 
 what was the cause. 
 
 3465. I will ask you, I think, only one more ques- 
 tion, because I do not want to trouble you with 
 medical questions, but this one I want to put to 
 you. A man is put upon this wood, and it is very 
 important, of course, that he should be aible to work 
 
 it, he tries, and tries, and tries again, until, after 
 some months, he is unable to do it at all. Ig 
 that so? — Yes. 
 
 3466. Is it then within your experience that any per- 
 manent injury has been done to that man ; or if he 
 changed to other woods would he get quite well again? 
 — That is rather a strange question. We have scarcely 
 had time to try it, or see its results. We have one 
 man now who has had to leave the industiy and go 
 to a cotton mill. As to whether he will be able to 
 manage in that industry or not I cannot tell. 
 
 3467. You have not had enough experience to say? 
 
 —No. 
 
 3468. (Dr. Legge.) I do not know that you have 
 mentioned the particular kind of wood that it is. 
 What do you call the wood 1 — It is what we term the 
 West African boxwood, and I find, of course, it gets 
 different names. If you gentlemen would like to see 
 a bit, I have some small samples here. 
 
 3469. But what other kinds of boxwood are there? 
 You mentioned Persian wood. Is therei any other 
 African boxwood besides this West African boxwood? 
 — ^I am not aware. There used to be what they call 
 Mambralla boxwood, and there was the East Indian 
 boxwood, but they mostly gave over using it, becaus" 
 it did not suit their purposes. 
 
 3470. Did the East Indian boxwood cause iEness?-- 
 That was used, I might say, before my time. 
 
 3471. You do not know about it? — No. 
 
 3472. What is Knysna boxwood ? — ^That is the name 
 the masters give this, or West African boxwood. I 
 see Professor Gibson states that it is commonly in 
 som« places called West African satin-wood. I am at 
 a loss to get to know what the proper name is. 
 
 3473. Do you know the South African boxwood ? It 
 was from South African boxwood that Professor 
 Harvey Gibson separated this alkaloid ? — Yes. 
 
 3474. And is that quite a different wood from West 
 African boxwood ? — No, we do not know the difference 
 at all. This (producing samples) is all the same kind of 
 wood, you see, only in different shades. 
 
 3475. Is it according to the seasoning that it 
 changes colour? — No, you might get these two- 
 off the same tree ; it might grow as straight as that 
 off th© same tree. It seems as if this portion had 
 more sap than the other one, and it is generally this 
 kind that we feel the most effects from. 
 
 3476. The bright specimen? — ^No, the dark yellow. 
 
 3477. Does this wood make a good shuttle? — Yes. 
 
 3478. Is that why it is used? — ^To use other box- 
 wood is dearer. This is very cheap, and it is soft ; 
 and, not only that, it satisfies the cotton manufac- 
 turers that it is a good substitute for boxwood. 
 
 3479. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do they want a heavy 
 wood, then? Why should you not use beech? — The 
 Cornel and Persimmon wood do equally a® well ; but the 
 boxwood has got so dear, aiLd this kind is quite as good. 
 
 3480. Why would not beech do ? — I could not say. 
 But we have two or three kinds of wood that we do be- 
 sides this. Why they want to use this is because it is 
 cheaper, and it takes the place of boxwood. It is being 
 substituted for boxwood. 
 
 3481. (Professor AUbutt.) Is it cheaper than all those 
 other woods ? — Yes. 
 
 3482. (Dr. Legge.) But the mianufacturer will tell 
 you that it makes a good shuttle ? — Yes ; that means 
 that he makes a good shuttle — that it is soft to work, 
 and it does not use his cutters. 
 
 3453. But it takes a good polish ? — ^Yes ; that is so 
 much the better for his sale, and he gets a fair price for 
 the wood. And it is simply deceiving the cotton manu- 
 facturer into the belief that it is as good as boxwood. 
 
 3454. Hofw long does it last, compared with dogwood f 
 — ^About the same length. 
 
 3485. What is the ordinary life of a shuffle?— That 
 would depend upon the wear-and-tear of the machine 
 that it was running in. If the loom was in good order, 
 it might last longer than it would if the loom was in 
 bad order. 
 
 3486. You work in Blackburn, I think ? — Yes. 
 
 3487. How many members of your Association are 
 there in Blackburn ? — 119. 
 
DEPABTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON IXDUSTHIAL DISEASES. 
 
 109 
 
 3488. Have you a sick fund in connection -with, youi 
 -Amalgamated Society ? — ^No. 
 
 34®9. When I was in Blackburn, I think there were 
 four men who were incapacitated who had had to take 
 to other work ? — Ye&. 
 
 3490. With the exception of this one other man that 
 you have mentioned since, who has gone to a cotton- 
 mill, are there any others, do you know, -who have had 
 to change their employment ? — I do not think we have 
 had -any others who have changed their employment, 
 ■only those who have left the trade and gone as puhficans 
 — but not tihrough that class of wood. 
 
 3491. So that, if one said that six men had had to 
 ■change their employment because of the effects of this 
 ■wood, in Blackburn, one would bo within the mark?^ 
 Yes. But I would like to point out that oiir Society 
 itself has made objection to work above a certain quan- 
 tity ; and I might say that we are going to try and see 
 if we cannot force our masters either to substitute 
 -another class of wood for it or to make the shuttles from 
 American dogwood. We have now given our masters 
 notice that, from the 1st of next September (1907), we 
 
 shall refuse to work that class of wood. We are so 3Ir. D. 
 confident, we have all felt the effects so much (even our Isherwood. 
 foremen have seen it, and know it), thait we do contend — - 
 it is not right, seeing that they cannot put a suitable * ^ec. 190 o. 
 exhaust in — which we believe is almost an utter im- 
 possibility. Ajid now our Society has determined to 
 try and stop that wood. 
 
 3492. But you agree, do you not, that if the wood is 
 used only to a small extent— say, once a week — as com- 
 pared with the use of other wood, the symptoms do not 
 occur? — That depends on the time. If you work two 
 hours, and only two hours, per week, probably you 
 would not have got a sufficient amount of it to affeot 
 you much. But theaie is a man at the present time in 
 my workshop whose eyes would begin to run if he was 
 working there and the saws began to cut that wood. 
 
 3493. {Professor Allbutt.) How far away is that? — I 
 should think ten or twelve yards away. As soon as the 
 dust begins, to circulate through. 
 
 3494. Has Spanish chestnut ever been used for this 
 purpose ? — I do not think so. Not that I can remember. 
 
 Mr. W. F. Deaeden, M.R.O.S.. L.B.C.P., examined. 
 
 3495. (Chairman.) You, 1 believe, are a medical man 
 in practice in Manchester ? — That is so. 
 
 3496. And you are also a certifying surgeon under 
 the 'Factory Acts ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3497. You have had experience of the effects of anilin 
 .poisoning on workpeople employed in dye-works ? — Yes. 
 
 3498. In what processes does -the poisoning from 
 -aniline take place? — In the dying of what is called 
 
 " fast blacks." 
 
 3499. Only in that process ? — ^Only in that process. 
 
 3500. To what oanje© iai the poisoning due? — Tto 
 inhaling tlw vapour of anilin, and, to a lesser degree, 
 from ajbsoi-ption through the skin. 
 
 3601. And this vapour is not produced in any other 
 (process in dye-works ? — Not to my knowledge. I might 
 say that it is not. 
 
 3502. What symptoms does it give rise to ? — The main 
 •characteristic symptoms are symptoms of cyanosis — 
 that is, paleness, lividity of countenance, blueness of 
 the lips, and blueness of the finger-nails. Besides these, 
 .you get symptoms of dyspnoea, or defective breathing, 
 intense cyanosis, with giddiness, shivering, muscular 
 relaxation, small and intermittent pulse, drowsiness, 
 dilated pupils, and sometimes loss of consciousness. 
 The functions of the bladder and rectum may be 
 ■affected. You may also get temporary blindness from 
 paralysis of the optic nerve. The symptoms are similar 
 to those from poisoning Iby di-nitro-benzol, and are 
 also produced in more or less degree from taking over- 
 doses of acetanilide in ordinary medical practice. In 
 the case of dyers, the skin of the hands is saturated 
 ■with the anilin hydrochloi-ide, and this produces a 
 yellow stain on common wood-pulp paper being handled 
 by them. 
 
 3503. Are men incapacitated from work for any con- 
 siderable length of time? — It is difficult to get to know 
 ihat. I have had one particular case in my experience 
 where the incapacitation was undoubtedly due to this 
 poisoning, and I am quite satisfied that other people 
 "have been away from work for nioderately lengthy 
 periods from the same cause. Bu-t the difficulty is 
 this : If a man is away fro-m poisoning from a trade 
 ■process, he would not like to hand in a certificate to 
 
 his employer to that effect. 
 
 3504. Why not ? — ^He would bo afraid for his situa- 
 'tion — that is the case exactly. 
 
 3505. Have you had any cases of men being inca- 
 pacitated for periods of months througli this poisoning? 
 — No. In the paiticular cases that- I att^en^ded in pri- 
 
 ■ va-ts practice, where I had a ve-ry excellent opportunity 
 of watching the effects, the man would be off work for 
 
 ■probably about a fortnight, and perhaps three weeks 
 on occasion. He would resume- his work, and a 
 few months afterwards he might be laid up again for 
 perhaps a similar period. 
 
 3506. But .always for a period of either one, two, or 
 'three weeks ?-^Yes. 
 
 3507. Have you ever had any fatal cases? — I have 
 no knowledge of any fatal cases, but there are very 
 serious effects produced sometimes in one part of the 
 process — that is, where the man goes into what is called 
 the "ager," or ageing-room. You get more sudden 
 and pronounced toxic effects there. 
 
 3508. That is from the same vapour ? — Yes, and modi- 
 fications of it. It is almost impossible to tell what 
 vapours are produced in this ageing -machine. The 
 anilin is oxydised there, and some very complicated 
 chemical vapours are formed, which are not actually 
 knO'Wn ; and that is where the dye is struck. 
 The oxidation of anilin takes place there, and this 
 forms the black. The cloth is a yellowish shade before 
 it goes into the " ager." 
 
 3509. The processes in the ager are automatic, as a 
 rule, are they not? — ^Yes. 
 
 3510. And it is only in the case of a breakdown that 
 a man has to go in? — ■Yes, and then the man might 
 ibeoome unconscious and be dragged out. It is a com- 
 paratively common occurrence, the man being taken 
 into- the open air to- come round. 
 
 3511. Is he inoapaicitated from working ? — Yes, 
 perhaps, for several days in such case ; but, so far 
 as I understand, he -has not the prolonged absence 
 from work you get from the slower poisoning. 
 
 3512. The symptoms are- something like those of 
 asphyxiation, I suppose? — ^Practically. You get the 
 lividity more pronoimced and the blueness. 
 
 3513. But the danger of that is well understood, 
 and the men would go into the ager as a man would 
 go into the dangerous part of a mine or a house on 
 fire ? — They should do, but they are very careless ; 
 they go in without respirators or anything protective 
 sometimes. 
 
 3514. Do men often go into the ager without any 
 iU effects occurring? — Yes, if they place a cloth over 
 their mouths, and are very quick in going in and 
 out. 
 
 3515. A man would never be incapacitated for a 
 week, would he, from poisoning of that kind? — That 
 is possible. 'I do not know of a case of incapacitation 
 for a week in my personal experience. 
 
 3516. The other form of poisoning from anilin 
 which you were discussing first is of gradual develop- 
 ment, is it not ? — ^Yes ; a man would be working at the 
 process for some time before he would be really actually 
 laid up ill. 
 
 3517. Can you diagnose with -certainty this form 
 of -anilin poisoning ? — ^Yes, I could, I think ; but it 
 would probably be a difficult thing for anyone who 
 was not -aware of the effects of anilin in dye works. 
 It might not strike a practitioner unless he was aware 
 of the poisonous effects of anilin in dye works, and 
 the possibility of workmen suffering from such. 
 
 3518. If you had a man in a hospital, without know- 
 ing the history of his case, suffering from certain 
 
 Mr. W. F. 
 Dearden, 
 
 M.E.C.S., 
 L.R.C.P, 
 
110 
 
 MIN'UTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 M.K.C.S., 
 L.E.C.P. 
 
 14 Dec, 1906. 
 
 Mr. W. F. employed in processes in which either anilin is used 
 Dtarden, suffering from aniline poisoning? — Well, the symp- 
 toms are similar to those produced by di-nitro-benzol 
 poisoning, so that by enquiry, of course, you would 
 find out what the man had been accustomed to work at. 
 And, of course, there is one particular thing that 
 would strike me (I mention it in my abstract), that 
 ifi, that a man in handling a newspaper turns it 
 yellow — that is a proof that the man has been working 
 in aniline. 
 
 3519. Do you come across similar symptoms from 
 any other cause in ordinary practice amongst men not 
 employed in processes in which either anilin is used 
 or di-nitro-benzol ? — The only tbing that it could pos- 
 sibly be confused with, I think, would be some cases 
 of heart disease and some eases of asthma. In a case 
 which I had, when I was first caJled to see the man. 
 the symptoms were very like astihma, there being great 
 difficulty of breathing; but there was a particular 
 blueness that imad© m© ask him questions. It was not 
 
 ■ exactly like aaiything I had seen in heart disea.?©, or 
 in ordinary asthma. 
 
 3520. Then are there specific characteristic symp- 
 toms which would enable a medical man experienced 
 in such cases to say definitely and with certainty thatt 
 a man with those symptoms was suffering from a 
 disease due to his employment? — Certainlv. 
 
 3521. (Professor AllbuU.) In what particular parts 
 of the process are the men engaged of whom you are 
 speaking? Are you speaking of all the men engaged 
 in the works, or only of those who are engaged in a 
 particular pai*t of the process? — ^I am only speaking 
 of those engaged in this particular process. 
 
 3522. In which particular process ? — ^In dyeing these 
 "fast blacks." 
 
 3523. But what are the men actually doing at the 
 time? — They are mixing the dye solution, and attend- 
 ing to the machine. There are two methods of making 
 this solution; some firms employ anilin oil, adding 
 hydrochloric acid to form the salt. 
 
 3524. Are the men necessarily in the same apart- 
 ment as that mixing ? — Not if carried out in the drug 
 room. It iias, however, been common to carry on 
 the mixing in the same room as the rest of the process. 
 
 3525. W© have been told that they are not neces- 
 sarily in the same apartment? — ^Not now, perhaps, since 
 the new Regulations ; tbos© have made a great deal of 
 difference, of course. They were very careless before 
 the new Regulations, were issued. 
 
 3526. And with the Regulations the danger in 
 the mixing part of the process might be got rid of? — ■ 
 The new Regulations have minimised the danger a 
 great deal, so with care there should now be very little 
 risk. 
 
 3527. What are the particular incidents against 
 which it would be most difficult to protect the man 
 by regulation? — ^I scarcely think any of them. T 
 tliink it is quite possible for these risky incidents to- be 
 done away with altogether, if the men will only ob- 
 serve the Regulations, as well as the employers ; that 
 is the great difficulty. 
 
 3528. We saw at Bradford, I think unquestionably 
 as far as I could judge, a man suffering from acute 
 poisoning from one of these series of products. He 
 was working at what is called the '' egg," which does 
 not itself contain these products ; but h© was perhaps 
 eight or ten yards from where fumes were coming off 
 from Bom© other process which did contain, or presum- 
 ably oontaiued, these pi-oducts, and it alleged that 
 this man, being ten yards off, suffered from acute 
 poisoning. Would that b© within your experience? — 
 I think it quit© possible if it was in a 
 very heated room, and if the crude anilin oil was 
 used (that is in contradistinction to using anilin salt) 
 that there would be sufficient fumes to cause the 
 symptoms. 
 
 3529. I will leave that subject, as Dr. Legge will 
 kindly ask you about it. Acute poisoning, of course, 
 does not com© much within your experience ; you 
 have never seen a case of acute poisoning — you have 
 no_ vivid recollection of it? — ^No, not of anilin 
 poisoning. 
 
 3530. Th© n©xt thing I should like to ask you is 
 about th© ansemia. At the time when the symptoms 
 of poisoning are obvious, when it is sub-acute, you hare 
 
 these changes of complexion, and so forth, of whick 
 you have spoken ? — Yes. 
 
 3531. Is it within your experience that all these- 
 men, or the large majority of them, engaged actively- 
 in this sort of work become permanently, so to speak, 
 ansemic, so that, on examining th© ©y©, or the gums, 
 or even meeting a man in th© street, you would 
 b© able tO' say from his ansemic appearance that 
 he had probably worked in these fumes ?---Not unless. 
 I had more information to go upon, I think. 
 
 3532. I might put it a little more broadly, then. 
 In the case of men of whom you are speaking, is there, 
 any persistent, in the sense of permanent, ansemia?—' 
 Yes, whilst th©y continue working at the process ; but 
 if they give it up they get right again. 
 
 3533. You have not examined the blood of any oL 
 these men, I suppose ? — No. 
 
 3534. The symptoms pass off completely, I think?" 
 the symptoms gradually disappear ; that is to say, in 
 all these cases, unless by some accident, there is. 
 complete recovery ? — Yes ; but it would be. necessary in 
 some cases to give up the work permanently if there 
 were to be no recurrence. 
 
 3535. Do the men become more susceptible after 
 each atta.ck? — ^Yes; but I believe that would not 
 operate tO' any -great extent where preventive measures . 
 are taken against recurrence. 
 
 3536. But if a man changes his employment, for 
 example, he would get perfectly well, generally speak- 
 ing ? — Yes. 
 
 3537. There is one point that you reserved — that is, 
 dilatation of the heart. That, you think, might entaik 
 permanent incapacity? — Yes, certainly it would. 
 
 3538. You have seen case's of that, too?^ — ^Yes. 
 
 3539. There the heart has become poisoned in such 
 a way that it does not within a reasonable time re- 
 cover? — Yes, that would be pei-manent, though all tho- 
 other symptoms had dissappeared. 
 
 3540'. That, I gather from your precis, would be of 
 very rare occurrence? — ^Yes, very rare. 
 
 3541. Does paralysis of the optic nerve mean, 
 atrophy of the optic nerve? — No, that would only be 
 a temporary symptom from a disturbance of the circula- 
 tion. 
 
 3542. You are not contemplating disease of the eye ? 
 —No. 
 
 3543. (Dr. Legge.) Have you had experience of the- 
 use of di-nitro-benzol in factories? — No. 
 
 3544. Your experience is limited to anilin black 
 dyeing ? — Yes. 
 
 3546. Is the aniline black dyeing carried on in; 
 Manchester exa.ctly in the sam© way as it is in Brad- 
 ford by the Bradfoird Dyers' Association ?^-Yes. 
 
 3547. You have branches in your district? — Yes. 
 This Bradford process originated in my district, as a. 
 matter of fact. 
 
 3549. Your only knowledge is of calico cloth that 
 passes through -anilin oil or anilin hydro-chloride, 
 is aged, and then treated with bi-chromate of potash ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3550. You referred to the symptoms which you say 
 here are associated with di-nitro-benzol. Have you 
 ever seen a case of di-nitro-benzol poisoning ? — No, but 
 I have read Dr. White's papers on th© subject. 
 
 3551. Where does he get his experience from? — 
 From the manufacture of explosives. 
 
 3552. What explosives ? — Roburite, I believe. 
 
 3553. Are the symptoms of anilin poisoning, do 
 you think, as pronounced as those that you get from 
 handling or coming into contact with di-nitro-benzol? 
 —It depends upon the severity of the individual case. 
 
 3554. But from what you have read of Dr. Prosser- 
 White's experience, what should you say? As I 
 understand, you, personally, have only had to treat 
 one case ? — ^Yes ; I have seen others, of course. But I 
 do not think aniline black dyeing is so serious a matter 
 as this manufacture of explosives. 
 
 3555. You do not think that the poisoning from 
 anilin© black dyeing is so serious as that from the 
 manufacture of explosives? — No. 
 
 3556. But the symptoms, nevertheless, are com-- 
 parable ? — ^Yes. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 Ill 
 
 3557. "What is anilin, .chemically speaking? — It is 
 iphenylamine. 
 
 3559. Would it h© included under the term nitro 
 • and amido derivatives of benzine? Would that term 
 
 include all those substajices producing these vapours ? — 
 I should say so. ' 
 
 3560. Have you experience of poisoning arising 
 from the salt — hydrcnchloride of aniUn? — ^It is a 
 difficult thing to say whether the poison has arisen 
 from the salt or from anilin oil. 
 
 3561. That is my point ? — Because in some places 
 where the anilin salt is used to produce the black 
 they bavo a, trick of adding some anilin oil to the 
 mixture, and that passes through all the pro- 
 
 ■ cesses, of coui-se, with the aniline chloride ; that 
 is to eay, the cloth is. impregnate.d with the 
 anilin oil along with the anilin chloride. Of course, 
 the aniline oil is .bv a long way the more dangerous. 
 Anilin© salt is certainly very little dangerous, though 
 I believe .absorption of this through the skin can pro- 
 duce symptoms. 
 
 3562. Have you noticed any effects on the skin of 
 workers with anilin or anilin hydro-chloride? — The 
 
 : skin gets saturated. 
 
 3563. But is there any lesion of the skin? — ^No, 
 there is no lesion at all ; it is simply saturated with 
 
 •chloride of anilin. 
 
 3564. Have you noticed any effects from the use of 
 chromic acid, or bi-chroimate of potash, in the process 
 of aniKn dyeing? — ^Yes — that is the fixing of the 
 black afterwards. After it co.mes from the ager it is 
 fixed or mad© fast. 
 
 3565. What is the effect produced? — Sores on the 
 hand by handling th© cloth; men will handle the 
 cloth to keep it straight ; they appa-rently cannot help 
 
 -doing it. 
 
 3566. Can you recognise the particular effect pro- 
 duced on the skin by chromic acid ? — You associate the 
 two naturally if you know that the man has got these 
 ulcei-ations and wo.rks at the pro'cesis. 
 
 3567. Does it differ from eczema? — The sores are 
 -deeper. 
 
 3568. Have you had to treat these ulcers yourself ? — 
 ^No. ; I do not think I ever had to treat them. 
 
 3570. Have you never seen simple diffused eczema on 
 'the backs of the hands ? — No ; not that I could associate 
 with the chro'mic of potash. 
 
 3571. (Chairman.) Do these diseases of anilin 
 poisoning and chrome ulceration occur in other in- 
 'dustries besides dye-works ? — In the manufacture of 
 lanilin and anilin salt. 
 
 3572. And the chrome ulceration ? — Yes, in the 
 manufacture of chromate of potash and soda. 
 
 3573. Have you had experience of any such cases; 
 —No. 
 
 3574. (Mr. Cumjnfjhame.) With regard to chrome 
 .';poisoning, I think one or two of the witnesses who have 
 
 appeared before us treated the chrome ulceration as 
 rather a sni'all thing. What is your general opinion 
 
 ■about it? — I should treat it as rather a small thing in 
 
 'this particular process. 
 
 3575. I was going to ask : Would you dignify it with 
 ( he name of an industrial poison ? I do not want to 
 lead yoTi either way, I want merely your opinion. In 
 
 ■one sense, everything may be a po'leon ? — That is so ; 
 but I do not think itis of that supreme importance 
 in so far as concerns this particular process. 
 
 3576. (Chairman.) For how long would it incapaci- 
 "tate a man in bad cases t — In my opinion, a man would 
 have to be absolutely careless to get his hand bad 
 ■from it. 
 
 3577. But, apart from his being careless, for how 
 long a period would it incapacitate a man in Isad cases ? 
 — It would incapacitate him for several weeks. 
 
 3578. .(21r. Cunynghame.) In a bad case? — Yes. 
 
 3579. Then probably what I was alluding to as a 
 •slight ordinary case, was what the witnesses were 
 .alluding. to when they rather minimised its effect? — 
 Yes. 
 
 3580. The -severe . cases would be comparatively rare, 
 I suppose ? — Very rare. Only a small ulceration is 
 
 .l:he.rule.; -and -when a man finds that, he takes care of 
 
 it, and gets it well. All the men themselves know the 
 risk of it ; they know it is injurious to the hands. 
 
 3581. (Chairman.) Let us turn now to the suibject of 
 the effects of nitrous fumes. You have had experience 
 of cases of that ? — Yes. 
 
 3582. Also in dye-works ? — Yes, in dye-works. 
 
 3583. And in printing works as well t — Dyeing works 
 and printing works. 
 
 3584. Anilin poisoning doss not occur in printing 
 works, does it? — I cannot say that anilin poisoning 
 does. Anilin dye is used to a certain extent ; but I 
 would not like to apply my remarks to printing works 
 at all without more knowledge. 
 
 3585. But poisoning by nitrous fumes distinctly does 
 apply to printing works as well ? — Yes. 
 
 3586. Are the symptoms there gradual, or do they 
 arise suddenly, as though from accident ?— They are 
 mostly gradual in dye and print works. They are not 
 very characteristic. They are loss of appetite, sickness, 
 vomiting, sleepiness, difficulty of breathing, lassitude, 
 muscular weakness, .and prostration. 
 
 3587. Would a man who worked in the processes in 
 which he is exposed to nitrous fumes for some time 
 show these sym.ptoms ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3588. You do not mean in the .case of a man sud- 
 denly being overcome by the effects of th© fumes ? — Not 
 with this particular process. I .can tell you of a case 
 subsequently, from another process of dye-making ; 
 but not from the process I am referring to, of dyeing 
 what are called paranitrajiiline reds — -that is, the 
 modem substitute for Turkey-red. 
 
 3589. There the poisoning, from nitrous fumes is a 
 gradual development ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3590. But there are other processes in dye-works in 
 which a m.an may suddenly .be fumed ? — My experience 
 of a man being suddenly fumed was at a chemical 
 works, where they manufacture a fast claret dye ; but 
 probably something of a similar nature may occur 
 in dye works. 
 
 3591. Was that the result of some defect in the 
 appa.ratue? — In this particular case it was due to oare- 
 
 ' less handling. 
 
 351)2. But you only know of one such case? — Only 
 one in my personal experience. It was a well-marked 
 case of acute poisoning from nitrous fumes. 
 
 3593. Do yoa get many cases of poisoning from 
 nitrous fumes in men employed in dyeing and printing 
 eotton piece-goods? — This was in cotton piece-goods. 
 
 3594. Do you get many such cases ? — ^Not personally ; 
 though from inquiries I have every reason to believe 
 that such are of frequent occurrence. 
 
 3596. Do they incapacitate from, work a long period 
 sometimes? — I should say two or three weeks would 
 be the ordinary time. 
 
 3596. You never get any fatal cases ? — Not from dye- 
 works. 
 
 3597. Can you diagnose this disease with certainty ? 
 — No, I should not say so. You would require to know 
 what the man was working at — ^to diagnose it from the 
 history, as much as anything else. The symptoms are 
 not characteristic. 
 
 3598. But if you knew the process at which the man 
 was at work, and he presented .certain symptoms, could 
 you say .practically with certainty that his symptoms 
 were the result of working in that process ? — Yes. 
 
 3599. Would there be rislc of cases occurring in which 
 the symptoms were diagnosed as symptoms of indus- 
 trial poisoning, which are really due to some com- 
 pletely different cause ? — Yes ; there is a possibility, 
 certainly. There is the chance of a man representing 
 himself as suffering from the effects of his work, when 
 he is probably suffering from something else. 
 
 3600. Is that a serious risk? — I should not consider 
 it a very serious risk if medical men understood the 
 process. 
 
 3601. A really expert medical man could differenti- 
 ate ? — I think so. 
 
 3602. Now we might turn to the india-rubiber works. 
 In India-rubber works, do the workers sometimes suffer 
 from the effects of carbon bi-sulphide fumes ? — ^Ye«. 
 
 3503. Have you had cases of that kind under your 
 observation ? — Only in a very slight degree. The 
 
 Mr. W. F. 
 Deardtn, 
 M.K.C.S., 
 L.E.C.P. 
 
 14 Dec., 1906. 
 
112 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. W. F. 
 Deardni, 
 M.K.C..-'., 
 L.R.O.P. 
 
 14 Dec. 1906. 
 
 only symptoms I have noted are symptoms of sleepless- 
 ness and headache when the weather is particularly 
 heavy, and the fumes do not get away from the appar- 
 atus very well. These soon disappear if the men go 
 out into the fresh air. 
 
 3604. Have you ©ver heard of persons 'being inca- 
 pacitated from working by being exposed to carbon 
 bi-sulphide fumes ? — ^Yes ; there is one man I 
 periodically examine — a man who has been working at 
 the process for 20 years. Ten years ago he distinctly 
 suffered (from ,the history) from peripheral neuritis. 
 He was taken off his feet for 18 months. 
 
 3605. And was it definitely due to this process? — 
 Yes, it was assigned to it, and at that time, h© tells 
 me, he often used to feel drunk without having had 
 anything tO' drink. That is one of the effects, of 
 course, of carbon bi-sulphide ; it is a good way of ex- 
 pressing it, though it sounds a little broad. I ought 
 to say that that man has quit© recovered. I have been 
 very particular in examining him on several occasions 
 to see whether there is any sign of neuritis now, and 
 there is not. 
 
 3606. Is that a specific symptom which results from 
 this poisoning? — ^Yes, one of them. 
 
 3607. Have you had any other cases of the kind 
 under your observation? — No. 
 
 3608. Are there many indiarubber works in your 
 district ? — I have two indiarubber works in my district. 
 There are a number of them in Manchester. 
 
 3609. How many men are exposed to the danger 
 of this disease ? — At the present time I have got six 
 men who are working at this process in the two 
 works, sometimes I have eight. 
 
 . 3610. Have you experience of this disease in other 
 districts? — No. I might say that the process I have 
 experience of is a process of vulcanising proofed cloth. 
 Carbon bi-sulphate is also used t oa very large extent in 
 what we call curing, or vulcanising tobacco pouches, 
 balloons, and articles of that class ; but I have not 
 personal experience of that branch of the trade in any 
 district. 
 
 3611. Have you had any cases of workers suffering 
 from poison by naphtha? — ^No, I cannot say that I 
 have. People have complained of loss of appetite, 
 headache, and so on, from this cause, but such are not 
 absolutely symptomatic. 
 
 3612. {Mr. Cunynghame.) How far could it be said 
 that the fumes of this bi-sulphid© incapacitate men 
 from work? I am not quite clear upon that point 
 from your evidence? — There is the experience of a 
 man who was 18 months away from work. 
 
 3639. That was in the past? — ^Yes, of course, before 
 the specj.al rules were brought out and observed. 
 
 3614. "Was that from the effects of one single poison- 
 ing on a specific day, or was it the effect of working 
 for some time upon this work? — ^It was the effect of 
 working for some time. 
 
 3615. Then if there is not a fan there is clearly 
 poisoning, as well as merely accidental fumes ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3616. Are you familiar with the difference between 
 
 the notion of poisoning by accident and of poisoning 
 by slow degrees and constant exposure to fumes!— 
 Yes. 
 
 3617. And you would say that here was a case of 
 poisoning which was not an accident? — Yes; these- 
 cases I refer to are all poisonings, and not accidents. 
 The only cases that might be put down to accident 
 being the on© of nitrous fumes in chemical works, and 
 p©rhaps some of those occurring in aniline black ageing 
 rooms. 
 
 3618. But now, apparently, poisoning seems nearly 
 to be put an end to in the trade? — In this par- 
 ticular process. 1 cannot say that it has been alto- 
 gether put an end to in the curing or vulcanising of 
 balloons and tobacco pouches. 
 
 3619. And it goes on in those still ? — ^YeSj in some- 
 degree ; but I have not personal experience of that, 
 and, therefore, I would not like to say much about 
 it. In this I have, and can say with confidence, that 
 the special rules have made a wonderful difference. 
 
 3620. (Professor Allbutt.) Then really, within your 
 experience, the diseae© has become reduced to acci- 
 dent now in these works ; that is to say, if acci- 
 dentally, some day or other, the machines were de- 
 fective, some poisoning might arise? — ^Yes, or if the- 
 men would not observe the precautions, the symptoms 
 being then of the acute or " intoxicating " variety. 
 
 3621. You say that, vrith the exception of some- 
 slight drowsiness in hot or muggy weather, no ill 
 effects have been noticed ? When this occurs it would, 
 speaking generally, be quit© occasional ? — Yes. 
 
 3622. So that if this happened several times a year, 
 for instance, and the effects passed off on going into the 
 open air, it would leave no injury ? — Exactly. They do 
 not work continuously at the process now as they did- 
 formerly ; they cannot work at it for more than five 
 hours at a stretch. 
 
 3623. As I understand, this drowsiness will only, 
 occur occasionally? — ^Only occasionally. 
 
 3624. And there is not any continuous slight degree, 
 of poisoning going on of which that drowsiness is the- 
 symptom ? — Not under present conditions. 
 
 3625. (Dr. Legge.) In consequence of its poisonous- 
 nature, have the firms been endeavouring to obtain a 
 substitute for carbon bi-sulphide in the waterproofing; 
 of cloth? — ^Yes, there Is a great deal more vulcanising 
 by heat of these waterproof cloths than there was- 
 when I first commenced to make these periodical ex- 
 aminations. 
 
 3626. There is a marked diminution, then, in tht 
 cases of carbon bi-sulphide poisoning? — ^Yes ; in fact, 
 my experience is now that the men never work at it 
 for the five hours allowed. Probably they might be a 
 couple of hours at it every other day, or a couple of 
 hours each day. Sometimes they have a push on, and 
 might get up to five hours, but it is very rarely that 
 they are employed five hours at this process. 
 
 3627. Are you aware of any fresh industries in 
 which carbon bi-sulphide is being used extensively?— 
 No, not in my experience. 
 
 Mr. George Rome Hall, m.d., examined. 
 
 Mr. G. B. 
 Hall, M.D. 
 
 3628. {Chairman.) You have been kind enough to 
 come to give evidence before this Committee, at thfc 
 request, I understand, of the Dock Labourers' Union 1 
 — ^Yes, they have requested m© to do so. 
 
 3629. And you have done medical work for them ? — 
 Not officially, but for the men individually. 
 
 3630. But you are speaking here to-day on behalf 
 of the Union, so far as medical questions are con- 
 cerned ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3631. You are engaged in practice in the East of 
 London ?>— In MiUwall— that is, the Isle of Dogs. 
 
 3632. And you have had experience of the diseases 
 to which dock labourers are speoally liable ? — For three 
 years padt. 
 
 3633. What diseases should you say those were? — 
 Affections of the throat and wind-pipe — inflammations, 
 I mean — ^bronchitis and asthma. 
 
 3634. And how do these diseases iarise in tliis par- 
 ticular employment ? — ^The men state that it is from the- 
 dust that occurs in the grain which they handle. 
 
 3636. And do you think that is so? — ^It is a most 
 marked fact that before they have been at it a few 
 years they are all chronically affected with these com- 
 plaints — those who work in th© grain, as it is called. 
 
 3636. These complaints, I suppose, arise quite gradu- 
 ally after a man has been at work for a period of time? 
 —It is so — ^gradually. 
 
 3637. Do these complaints incapacitate the men for 
 work, and continuing their employment?^ — After they 
 have once reached the chronic stage, a specially severe 
 day's work will bring on the complaint acutely. 
 
 3638. So that they are not able to go. on with their 
 work? — On occasion they have to stop. I do not say 
 always, but on occasion. It is quite a regular thing,. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 113 
 
 after they have had a hard day's work, for certain of the 
 " chromes," as I call them, to come up and say they 
 are worse and they want medicine — after they have had 
 a specially hard day's work on tihe grain. 
 
 3639. But do you ever get any of these cases where 
 the men are laid up and kept away from, work by these 
 complaints? — Not often. 
 
 3640. But you have come across such cases ? — ^I have. 
 
 3641. Have you come across any fatal cases ? — I could 
 not say so. There are so many factors to be con- 
 sidered, I mean. These men, nearly all of them, take 
 too much drink, on account of the exhausting work they 
 have to do ; and, after a few years, the men are not 
 only unhealthy from the inflammatory trouble brought 
 on by the work, but that is aggravated by the drink. 
 Then the men really become aged at 50. I count all of 
 them at 50 as older than they ought to be at 60 ; and 
 the result is, they break up by the least exposure and 
 the least overwork. But it is a difficult question to say 
 that it would be due to one specific exposure. 
 
 3642. But you consider that these throat and chest 
 complaints may be held distinctly to arise froin work- 
 ing in grain cargoes ?— They most decidedly do. I do 
 not know one man who has been at the work a few years 
 who is not subject to a chronic inflammatory state. 
 
 3643. Do you find precisely the same symptoms pre- 
 valent—though, no doubt, less prevalent— amongst per- 
 sons who are not engaged in that employment ?— I think 
 they are more prevalent in this cIjks of work. I do 
 not really know any class of men who have been at Work 
 for some length of time who have not gone wrong, 
 more or less, in the way I speak of, 
 
 3644. Do you find other people who are not doing the 
 same kind of work showing the same symptoms ? — ^Tes ; 
 other employments do bring it on, but not to the same 
 extent as that employment, I think, 
 
 3645. I mean, in people who are not engaged in any 
 industrial employment of that kind? For instance, 
 would you ever find the same symptoms in a clerk or 
 shop-assistant ? — ^You might, if he was working in im- 
 pure air — in air overcharged with grit, 
 
 3646. But it would never be due to the ordinary 
 circumstances of people's daily life ? You or I, for in- 
 stance, would never be likely to show those symptoms ? 
 — 'We might get, at times, the same inflammations, but 
 not from the same cause. 
 
 3647. But the symptoms themselves would not be 
 necessarily dis'ttnguishabl© ?! — No, not from an ordinary 
 case. You would' only have the history o€ having 
 worked in the grain to say that it was due to the grain. . 
 
 3647*. I will put it in this way : If you axe visiting 
 a hospital, and you see a man suffering acutely from 
 these symptoms, you cannot say definitely that that 
 man is a dock labourer? — ^No, you cannot. 
 
 3648. You cann'ot even say that that man has been 
 working in an atmosphere charged with dust? — ^You 
 cannot, unless you ask. 
 
 3649. Have you had any experience of any ill-effects 
 arising from sulphur or other chemicals that may form 
 part of a ship's cargo ? — ^I have not had any experience. 
 
 3650. Then the only diseases of whic^h you would 
 speak in evidence before this Committee are throat; in- 
 flammations, bronchitis, and asthma ? — ^Yes ; it is so. 
 
 3651. (Mr. Ounynghame.) The different cargoes 
 landed in that dock are apparently grain, timber, and 
 provisions ? — ^Thiose are the special cargoes. 
 
 3652. In addition to that, I suppose there is a great 
 bulk of other material ? — ^Yes ; there is a large amount 
 of other material. 
 
 3653. Do you find that these throat inflammations 
 are confined to people who are concerned in the grain 
 cargoes ?>— No ; they are not confined to them alto- 
 gether. You get a fair number of other people who, as 
 in any other form of work, get them. 
 
 3654. Timber, for instance, does not throw out any 
 dust particularly ? — No. 
 
 3655. Why should the unloading of timber be any 
 more daaigerous than, say, doing the work of a brick- 
 layer's labourer? Can you show to us that the people 
 engaged in grain unloading have a larger proportion of 
 this disease than people engaged in tinloading other 
 things ? — ^Most certainly they have. As I say, hardly 
 one of them eisoapeis by the time he has teen a few years 
 at the work. 
 
 419 
 
 Mr. G. R. 
 Ball, M.D. 
 
 3656. Take the grain unloading. Do men who do 
 gram unloading stick to that panticular trade, or do 
 they go to other work — such as timber one day, say, 
 and grain the next?— -The work is mixed up, as a rule. UDee. 1906, 
 I mean that a man will one day work a ship with . -" 
 gram, and another day, when that is finished, he will 
 
 work one with wood, or anything else. 
 
 3657. Then how are you able to say that it is the 
 grain that causes the evil, if the evil exists, when the 
 man works in five or six different operaSons? How 
 can you say that the graia causes the evil any more 
 than timber causes it, or something else causes it? — 
 Because timlber could not cause these bronchial com- 
 plaints especially. 
 
 3656. But are the bronchial complaints such that 
 they cannot be accounted for by anything but the 
 grain? — The grain brings it on with every man who 
 works in it for a few years. 
 
 3659. Do you mean with every man who has worked 
 a very little time in grain, because a man not only 
 works in grain, but he works in timber and other- 
 things? — ^There has to be a certain amount of ex- 
 posure, I would say, first to bring on these inflam- 
 matory complaints. 
 
 3660. Exposure to what? — To the grain. It is not 
 the grain itself which causes them ; it is the impuri- 
 ties mixed up with the grain, 
 
 3661. But how much exposure to grain is needful 
 to bring on these complaints ? — ^I would say five years 
 constantly employed at it, 
 
 3662. But there are no men who are constantly em-, 
 ployed on grain for five years, are there? — Yes, there 
 are some who stick to it. 
 
 3663. Who stick entirely to grain ? — ^Yes ; they call 
 themselves by that class of work alone. 
 
 3664. What is their title — what do thev call themJ 
 selves — grain labourers? — ^Grain workers. 
 
 3665. Is the disease larger amongst grain workers 
 than amongst the majority of dock labourers? — ^It is. 
 As I have said, hardly anyone escapes after a few 
 years. 
 
 3666. Of those grain men? — Yes. 
 
 3667. Do you mean the men who stick to grain en- 
 tirely ? — Yes ; hardly anyone escapes after a few 
 years. 
 
 3668. What class of men is it who do dock labour- 
 ing work? — ^These grain workers can only be men of 
 good physique — they have such heavy weights to 
 handle. I think the ordinary sack weighs 280 Ibs'. that. 
 they handle. 
 
 3669. And what class of man is it that does this 
 work ? Is it the better class of dock labourer ? They 
 are stronger, you have told us. Is it the more re* 
 spectalble class? — ^Yes, the men round Millwall are 
 Hampshire men, and men from that side and the 
 people who come out of Essex I think, and that part.. 
 They are well-built, big men. 
 
 3670. They are among the farm labourers, I sup-' 
 pose, of whom London is draining the country? — All 
 the older men are the farm men who crowded in some 
 25 years ago. I forget when it was that there was 
 that great influx of men ; but there was, about 25 
 years ago, a great influx of farm men. 
 
 3671. But at the present time, from what class are 
 these men recruited— the younger men?— The younger- 
 men are men that have come up from the country to 
 join them since, and their own sons. 
 
 3672. You mean that the grain men are nearly all 
 country-bred men of good physique? — Almost all of 
 them. 
 
 3673. Do they earn a higher wage at the grain load- 
 ing work than the others ?— Whenever there is plenty 
 of work they do earn a good wage. 
 
 3674. How much, for instance, do they make a 
 week? — It depends upon the ship being in. I have 
 known a good grain man earn 50s. 
 
 3675. He will earn anything between that and 30s., 
 I suppose? — ^I am afraid it has been very much less 
 of recent years. They have brought in machinery to 
 unload ships now, and the result is that a great many 
 of these men, who used to have full work, are con- 
 sidered fortunate if they work about one-third of a 
 week. 
 
 P 
 
114 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. 0. B. 3676. What do they do in the remaining two-thirds 
 Sail, M.D. of the week ? — They simply loaf round, imless they 
 
 can get employed on the other steamers, and the other 
 
 14 Dec. 1906, steamers have their regular hands, so that it is just 
 • a chance that thev get work upon them.. 
 
 3677. Then there ought to be, according to that, a 
 considerable diminution in this disease really, if the 
 number of men employed in grain work is diminish- 
 ing? — ^In one sense, yes ; but it has to be remembered 
 that it is only in the last three or four years that they 
 have begun to use machinery to any extent, and these 
 men were " chronics " before. 
 
 3678. But if this disease were put in a schedtde, 
 might it not lead to the wholesale deprivation of work 
 of a large number of men ? — ^I think so. 
 
 3679. You. mean that thev would all be thrust out 
 of work?— I think there would be at once many ships 
 that would be discharged by machinery. 
 
 3680. And that the whole of these men would be 
 thrown out of work? — ^Most of them. 
 
 3681. {Chairman.) But are there not many cases — 
 the great majority of cases — in which the men are in- 
 capacitated from work for less than a week? How 
 many cases of these complaints would you say you 
 have knowledge of in which the men were out of work 
 for more than ' seven days ? — Very few, because it 
 would be very hard to prove that it was a specific in- 
 stance where the disease was due to this specific ex- 
 posure to dust. ' 
 
 3682. But you thinjc in soine cases it might be pos-' 
 sible to prove it ? — In some cases it might, but it 
 would be very hard. If I might juSt say this, all 
 these men are chronic invalids from it, but I do not 
 see, personally, how they can be put under the com- 
 pensation provision — it would be very hard indesd to 
 do it. 
 
 3683. (Mr. . Cunynghame.) But my point ia rather 
 that if they are chronic invalids, and their life so 
 much shortened, it is a serious thing, and not a slight 
 one, appaarently? — It is, most decidedly. 
 
 3684. Then, if it is a serious thing, they wculd be 
 incapacitated for more than a week, would they not? 
 — ^I am not arguing the case of the men alone. 
 
 3685. No, it is a difficult point to get at. If it is 
 a, serious disease, we must contemplate their being 
 laid up for more than a week or so, must we not? — 
 Tes. 
 
 3686. Then, of course, they would certainly come* 
 under the Workmen's Oompensation Act? — I might 
 say that I can only recall in the three years two cases 
 which would have gone under the Act if you have to 
 prove that the specific exposure has resulted in their 
 being ill. 
 
 3687. But you may assume that that is not so ; that 
 would be a kind of accident, ais it were. The case 
 under the new Act would be that the constant ex- 
 posure, extending over some years, had produced a 
 <5hronio state of bad health and disease ? — ^Which bad 
 health only becomes acute on exposure, and only then 
 for a few days at the most, so far as I can see. 
 
 3688. But do you mean that a man who has got 
 bronchitis, and whose complaint has shortened his 
 life considerably, would not get compensation, and 
 would not be able to claim it for more than 
 ■seven days or so ? — I do not mean to say that a man, 
 after he has worked at it for eight or nine years, has 
 chronic bronchitis every hour that he lives ; but he 
 has got a condition which makes him easily susceptible 
 to chronic bronchitis, and that is brought on by 
 special exposure. It is not brought on by every ship 
 that he unloads; it is by special exposure on occa- 
 sion, if he is not up to the mark, say, or if the cargo 
 is specially filthy. 
 
 3689. Then, supposing he gets into this state, and 
 some fine day he goes away home with a real chronic 
 "bronchitis, would he not then be a proper subject for 
 compensation under the Act if this disease were in- 
 cluded? — ^He would, if it were included. Personally, 
 I do not see how it would be fair. 
 
 3690. (Chairman.) I understand that you are of 
 opinion that there are not any cases in which a man is 
 permanently incapacitated, in the sense that he can- 
 not work any day in the week, or any week in the year ? 
 — Only when he breaks up, and it brings on old age 
 
 before it ougiht to come. These men at 50 are as old as 
 they ought to be at 60. 
 
 3691. But it could not be said that such a man was 
 incapacitated by. some bronchial affection. I under- , 
 stand your point to be that the man is made by his 
 trade specially liable to bronchial attacks ? — Yes. 
 
 3692. He may be working in a dusty cargo, and get ■ 
 bronchitis ; he may stay a/way from, bis work for a day 
 or two, and when he is recovered again he goes back to 
 work ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3693. And he goes back to work for three or four 
 months, and 'has another little attack, and has to stay 
 away again. And that, perhaps, goes on for several 
 years ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3694. Then at last, having suffered from these occa- 
 sional attacks of . branohitis, he finds, with advancing 
 years, ;that he is- unable to go on working any more? — ' 
 As a fact, all these years his 'heart has been undergoing 
 a fatty change, as a rule ; and then he gives up ulti- 
 mately not &am bronchitis so much as from his heart ' 
 simply giving out, 
 
 3695. But is the heart affection due to the bronchial ' 
 attacks ? — I am afraid it is more due to the alcohol, 
 
 3696. So that really the bronchial attacks are one. 
 thing giving rise merely to temporary short periods of 
 incapacity ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3697. And the general physical deterioration of the . 
 man's physique is a separate thing, which makes him 
 old before ihis' time, and prevents his. working at all ? — ; 
 And every attack of bronchitis hastens that. , 
 
 3698. But it is not the sole and direct cause of it?— ■ 
 That is so. 
 
 3699. Or even the main cause of it. It is riot the 
 main, direct cause of it? — ^I have not lived there long' 
 enough to say that, I am watching certain men who' 
 are total abstainers, or practically so, and they. all of 
 them are not men in good health. That is all I can say. 
 
 3700. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Were the men in good 
 health when they started work some years ago ? — 'They 
 would not have been allowed to start if they could not" 
 do a proper day's work. When a man jias to carry | 
 weights of the amount I have mentioned, he must be in , | 
 good health. j^^ 
 
 3701. And they are not able to carry them now? — 
 Yes, they can carry them ; but these men who are total 
 aibstainei's do not look well. 
 
 3702. Is that due possibly to the climate of the place" 
 in which they are living ? Is it unhealthy round there ? 
 --I think it is very healthy ; personally, I have found 
 it very healthy. A man constantly inhaling dust ana 
 grit of any kind for a few hours, even say 24 hours a 
 week, cannot be up to the standard of health that he 
 ought to be. 
 
 3703. I should Hke to ask you a question upon that 
 Take a miller — take the proverbial jolly miller. He is 
 supposed to breathe dust all the days of his life. Would . 
 you put him down as an unhealthy man ? — I think he 
 is subject, certainly, if he takes alcohol 
 
 3704. No ; leave the alcohol out, and suppose him- 
 to be a temperance man? — ^He gets phthisis on occa- 
 sions, of a special form. 
 
 3705. Then apparently you would not put these dock 
 labourers on a worse footing as regards disease than 
 millers ? — ^No. 
 
 3706. And all people exposed to dust ? — I would put 
 them fairly well together. 
 
 3707. What would you say of the servants who clean- 
 out the House of Commons after the members have left^ 
 there, and who live in an atmosphere of dust — sweep- 
 ing ? You see the reason I put that quesition — for the 
 purpose of comparison? — ^They are not there to the 
 same extent. If you have ever been on a ship and seen 
 the stuff in the hold, you will know that a man cannot 
 live in the hold for more than a quarter of an hour; 
 he has to come up to breathe again. 
 
 3708. It is very bad in the hold ? — It is very bad ; 
 and if you go past a ship when they are unloading, all 
 round the side of the ship, and all over the ship, you 
 see this white stuff lying about that is mixed up with 
 the grain — the dust. 
 
 3709. Have you ever made any analysis of the dust 
 from the grain? — ^I have not ; but I have been told that 
 it is chiefly sulphate of copper. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 115 
 
 3710. It has been put into the grain to preserve it? 
 — It is mixed with it to prevent its undergoing mildeW. 
 
 3711. Would you attribute any of this complaint to 
 copper poisoning? — ^No ; they spit it up again. The 
 usual routine is that^a man goes dovirn into the hold, 
 and after he has been working there for an hour or 
 ■80, up he oomes. He says he is clogged. He has a 
 good drink of ale, and brings up the stuff, or he starts 
 to cough and brings up the stuff, and then goes down, 
 into the place again. They inhale a certain amount 
 into their lungs, and often a large amount sticks round 
 the throat. 
 
 3712. Which they bring up instead of swallowing ?— 
 
 Tes. 
 
 3713. Is there any silica in the dust in the grain ?— 
 Not that I know of.' 
 
 3714. I understand that, speaking from the best 
 knowledge that you have of the Workmen's Com- 
 pensation Act, and of its meaning, you are 
 not of opinion that these complaints ought to 
 Ibe included, you do not advocate their being included, 
 in the Schedule of Industrial Biseases ? — If the com- 
 plaint shortens a man's life, it is a proper thing to in- 
 clude ; and this unquestionably shortens his life, and 
 makes him old and unfit for work before he should be. 
 That is the first point. 
 
 3715. Then you leave it for us to say whether that is 
 in the Act or not ? — (Exactly. 
 
 3716. That is a prudent and proper answer. But, 
 at all events, the evil of which you are speaking is con- 
 fined to cargoes of grain ? — ^Tes. 
 
 3717. Does .that mean wheat? — ■Chiefly wheat. 
 
 3718. And aaiy other cereals ? — It would be any other, 
 .because these impurities are added to keep the cargo 
 
 diy. 
 
 3719. Would it be so with oats, for instance ? — ^I ex- 
 pect the same thing occurs there. I have seen the same 
 stuff round the ship's side with oats. 
 
 3720. Apart from the grain, there does not seem to 
 be any industrial disease connected with the docks? — 
 Tes ; there are others. 
 
 3721. Timber only results in accident ? — ^Yes, 
 
 3732. It is a healthy trade otherwise ? — ^Yes. ' •Mr-O-B. 
 
 3723. Then, if we take the provisions, I suppose the '^'^hj^-^- 
 provisions diat come from such a town) for instance, 14 Dec 1906 
 as Chicago, occasionally give rise to filthy smells in the ■ 
 
 hold ? — 'We do not have that at all. The provisions that 
 we get nearly all come from Copenhagen. 
 
 3724.. What does the filthy brine in the hold do?— 
 I simply added that for this reason : I can only con- 
 ceive of its causing trouible by a man going down and 
 becoming sick, and so bringing on spitting of blood or 
 anything else. I have had one case of that. That is 
 what I work upon. 
 
 3725. But, after all, for that matter people miay be 
 sick over all sorts of things — they may be sick over a 
 sea voyage, and break a blood-vessel? — Yes. 
 
 3726. That idea would be too remote altogether, 
 would it not? — I have had just one case, and in the 
 present spirit of the age, if the Act had been in force, 
 it would have been fought. 
 
 3727. But you would hardly, would you, call a filthy 
 smeU which caused somebody to go down and be sick 
 and break a blood vessel, an industrial disease ? — No, 
 I would not. 
 
 3728. So that we come back to this, then : that the 
 only disease you can mention, among those that we 
 have really to consider, is that arising from the inhala- 
 tion of grain dust ? — It is so. 
 
 3729. {Br. Legge.) I am anxious to know whether 
 there is any local lesion which accompanies the effects 
 produced on the lungs that you sp&ai. of. Before the 
 impurities in the grain pass down into the throat 
 and lungs they have to pass through the nose?— • 
 Yes. 
 
 3730. Is there any local effect produced by copper 
 sulphate, or by the dust that you notice on the margin 
 of the nose ? — No, none. 
 
 3731. Or inside the nose? — Inside the nose there is 
 just the ordinary simple running from the nose-^ 
 weeping on occasion, but nothing to mention. 
 
 3732. There is no ulceration? — ^There ia no ulcera- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. R. J, Fkiswell examined. 
 
 3733. (Chairman.) You, I 'believe, are a chemist by 
 profession? — I am. 
 
 3734. Are you an analytical chemist? — I am an 
 analytical and research chemist. I am a Past Vice- 
 President of the Institute of Chemistry, and - a Past 
 Member of the Council of the Chemical Socie ty,"and 
 chairman ot the London section of the Society 01 
 Chemical Industry. I have had nearly 30 years' ex- 
 I)erience in the manufacture of anilin and ajiilin, dyes. - 
 
 3735. As an employer of labour ? — ^No, as a chemist, 
 and as a director and manager of works. 
 
 3736. You are able to tell us something of the in- 
 dustrial diseases which arise in dye and chemical, 
 works? — ^Yes. 
 
 3737. Would you mention first those diseases which 
 you consider most serious ?^— ^I cannot call them 
 diseases, but the most serious attacks or lesions are 
 those due to the action of amino compounds, as they 
 are termed, such as anilin, toluenes; xylenes, etc. 
 
 3738. Are those all covered by the term amino com- 
 . pounds of benzene? — Yes, and its homilgues. 
 
 3739. What classes of workers are subject to these 
 poisonings ? — The men engaged in the production of 
 the amldo compound from the nitro compounds — ^that 
 is, nitro-benzene, nitro-toluene, or rather toluenes — 
 there are several — and the nitro-xylenes. 
 
 3740. Then all workers engaged upon the produc- 
 tion or use of these compounds are liable to poison- 
 ings therefrom ? — They are liable to poisonings there- 
 from. 
 
 3741. Are they sudden poiiisonings, or do they arise 
 gradiually in the course of a period of time, during 
 -which the man is employed ? — They are sudden, and 
 they are always the result of accident. In a well-regu- 
 
 419. 
 
 lated works such cases arise only from breakdowns, 
 which are absolutely unavoidable on occasion. 
 
 37*18. What about a badly-regulated works? — If there 
 were such a case— I do not know that there is such — 
 it <would be almost impossible for the men to work ; 
 the effects are so severe. Men working with these sub- 
 stances are in the position of men working with 
 poisons, and what might be termed deadly poisons. 
 
 3743. Anilin would come under that category ? — Yes. 
 _. 3744. Are there other chemicals which are not so 
 dangerous, but which, nevertheless, may igive rise to 
 disagreealble symptoms ? What compounds should you 
 say would be in that category? — ^The nitro products 
 themselves are, said to cause bad symptoms, but per- 
 sonally I cannot say that that is the case. I have my- 
 self entered into vats the floors and walls of which 
 have been saturated with nitro-benzene, for instance, 
 and I have suffered no ill effects. The first effect is a 
 stimulating and somewhat exhilarating effect, some- 
 ■ thing like entering into this room if a large quantity 
 of alcohol had been spilt upon the floor ; you feel a 
 warmth and exhilaration in the lungs, chest, and so 
 on, and you get what might be termed silight alcoholic 
 excitement. If you then go away into the open air 
 no ill' effects whatever follow. Personally I have ex- 
 perienced this on many occasions, and have never suf- 
 fered any ill effects from it ; and I have never known 
 a case of a workman suffering any ill effects tlierefrom. 
 On the other band, I must tell you that the explosives 
 psople who use bi-nitro-benZol and- bi-niti-o-toluol, 
 and bodies of that kind, are extremely afraid of the pre- 
 sence of any traces of the mono-nitro compounds in 
 them; :but then, in that case, the workers are 
 engaged, I believe, in handling these things and 
 putting them into cartridges, and in that case they pos- 
 • sibly have these nitro compounds, i£ they are present, 
 
 P 2 
 
 Mr. B. J. 
 Frisviell. 
 
-116 
 
 MINUTES , OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 ^^fr. ij, J, constantly under their noses and near their faces, and 
 
 friswetl. 60 they inay get a far larger dose than in such cases as 
 
 __ -. I have been mentioning. I have no experience myself 
 
 14 Dec. 1906. of an explosive faotoiy, but I have been informed that 
 
 ,~ — — that is the objection to bi-nitro compounds not free 
 
 from mono-nitro compounds, which is felt in the case 
 
 of explosive works — that is to say, the presence of 
 
 mono-nitro compounds is considered dangerous by 
 
 "those who make explosives from bi-nitro compounds. 
 
 3745. Going back to anilin for a moment, do you 
 . not ever come across oases of men who contract tha 
 ; poisoning gradually? — ^No, none whatever. The effects 
 
 of anilin are very peculiar. A man may get pretty 
 severely poisoned by it, and yet be unaware for a time 
 of the effect of that poisoning upon him, unless his 
 " comrades notice it. The first effects are great pallor ; 
 then blueliess of the lips, and, finally, of the tongue. 
 Therefore it was my custom, whenever aniline had' been 
 spilt, or when it was necessary that men should come 
 into contact with anilin vapour, that the fellow- 
 workers should continually look at each other and seei 
 whether they noticed any sign of blueness of the lips 
 or pallor, and if they noticed it then that m;an"was 
 immediately moved into the open air. 
 
 3746. You do not come across cases of men being pre- 
 , vented from working by this poisoning ? — ^No, it passes 
 
 off quickly as a rule. I might say the effects are these : 
 You first get this pallor and blueness of the lips and! 
 tongue, then you begin to feel headache about the base 
 of the skull and a slight "dizziness and general malaise. 
 If the thing continues after that, the urine becomes ex- 
 tremely dark— coffee-coloured, and then, if the case is 
 not relieved, the man may completely collapse. Buit, 
 . of course, in properly -regulated works such a case is 
 -never allowed. to get so far. As soon as the slightest 
 blueness is seen the man is sent out into the open ait 
 . and kept there, and directed to take exercise, and, if 
 necessary, a man is put on to walk about with him 
 and see that he does take exercise. 
 
 - 3747. , (Mr. Cunynghame.) Then it seems to be your 
 . opinion that in a badly regulated factory it would be 
 quite possible for a man to contract a gradual disease 
 through ithe occupation of working on anilin? — That 
 I cannot Say at all, because I have never known a 
 case of a man subjected chronically to its action. So 
 far as I know, these effects are very severe, and, if 
 they are not relieved, would be deadly ; but I have 
 never seen them go far enough to produce any really 
 permanently bad effect. 
 
 3748. But hokW.I*»9 **« i* take for the urine to be- 
 come cofie6-c6loured ? — ^1 should say possibly not more 
 
 'than two holirs from the time of the first attack. , 
 
 3749. Supposing tkat a man, instead of being ex- 
 posed on one occasion to too much of, the vapour (to a 
 great deal too much, say), was exposed from day to day 
 
 'to rather too much of it, not enough to make him bliie, 
 ' but still enough to have an effect upon him — would 
 you say then that he could coiitract the disease in that 
 way in a 'badly regulated factory ? — I cannot say at all, 
 I have never come across such a case. 
 
 3750. But if other people have said that.it was pos- 
 _Bible,- you would not be in a position to contradict 
 "them ? — No. I should say that the general effect woirld 
 
 be that a man perpetually subjected to small doses of 
 aniline would suffer a general deterioration of physique, 
 
 3751. (Br. Legge.) The xylenes you speak of are 
 much rarer chemical compounds, are they not, than the 
 others? — ^Yes. 
 
 3752. Can you say what they are used for ? — ^They are 
 used in manufacturing colours, scarlets particularly— 
 what are known as azo-scarlets, 
 
 3753j Are they manufactured where di-nitroebenzol 
 is manufactured ? — I do not think there is a singla 
 .factory now in England making xylenes. So far as 
 I am aware, the only things which are now made in 
 England are anilin And the toluenes — ortho and 
 para toluenes. "..- 
 
 3754. Have you any knowledge of the effects of para- 
 . nitrariiline ? — I have manufactured it myself. I have 
 
 never Seen any xll-efiects arise from it, 
 
 3755. Are nitrons fumes given off in the process of 
 dyeing paranitraniline reds ? — ^When this substance is 
 
 •used for making colour, nitrate of soda is also used, 
 '^ and if proper care is not taken, there may be consider- 
 able escapes of nitrous gases. ■' 
 
 3756. It is not essential for the production of tha 
 -chemical? — No ; it is absolutely unessential. In fact, 
 
 it would be bad manufacturing. You would, get a bad 
 , product if you had nitrous fumes given off. ; 
 
 - - 3767; There is one other chemical, chlor-nitro- 
 
 benzene. Do you know that ? — Only in the laboratory. 
 
 I have not used it on a manufacturing scale at all. 
 3758. You would regard that as poisonous ? — ^It would 's 
 
 undoubtedly be poisonous if taken internally, or if it 
 
 was- rubbed on the skin, on large surfaces of the skin, j 
 
 ot if the dust of it were inhaled. 
 
 THIRTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Friday, 21st December 1906. 
 
 MEMBBES PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hbebeet Samttel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Professor Cliitoed Allbtjtt, e.e.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m,d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bbttant (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Haeet Oebell, called in and Examined. 
 
 Mr.H.Orhell. 
 
 21 Dec. 1908, 
 
 3759. (Chairman.) I think you are an official of the 
 Dockers' Union, are you not ? — That is so. 
 
 3760. Have you had experience of work at the 
 London Docks for a number of years ? — Yes. 
 
 3761. First as a workman ? — Yes, for over a period 
 of 25 years, the first ten years as a workman and the 
 last 15 years a» an official of the Union, with, of course, 
 special duties relating to docks. 
 
 3762. The men who work in some of the grain car- 
 goes suffer from various complaints, I believe? — ^Yes. 
 Perhaps it would be well for me to give you my per- 
 sonal experience on the matter, as I have done a good 
 deal of work myself. The first effect you realise is 
 a smarting and an itching about the eyes and the 
 
 nostrils, particularly with grain cargoes from the Blade 
 Sea., arising I suppose from the sulphur or blue stone 
 as it is known amongst us, because it happens to be 
 blue. Then there is a choking sensation in the throat, 
 an excessive dryness which causes coughing and so on. 
 The next development is a sensation of being stifled, 
 which arises I suppose fromi the dust ; and then comes 
 a difficulty of breathing. "Whilst I have never been 
 taken out of a ship's hold myself by bleeding of the 
 nose, which is another symptom, there have been many 
 in the different gangs I have been in who liad to be 
 carried out because their noses have begun to bleed. 
 Their ears also bleed. That may be brought about by 
 the strain in coughing. But I have also seen soin« 
 bleeding at the nose who have not really shown' any 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 117 
 
 ^Eign of atrainingi I do not know any other cause forit 
 'than the Stufl which is mixed with the cargoes and 
 ;,th.e-dust. Many of the cargoes are. very hot and very 
 -dry, ,aJid some of them siliell mjosfc oiDJectionably, 
 especially 'f the ship happens to be a sweating ship, 
 or the grain has beent put in damp. , Either; of those 
 things would cause rather objectionable smells. I do not 
 know of a man in my own experience that ha.s reached 
 the age of. 46, supposing he started work at 30, at the 
 grain busimess, that is capable, of doing ah ordinary 
 day's work, and certainly he dare not go down a ship's 
 hold. He is generally done up with asthma. I do not 
 -know one of a gang who could take his comer in 
 bushelling, slinging, oi: bagging at that age owing to 
 being weak at the chest. Sine© I dropped that work 
 I have been employed looking after the men at the 
 docks as an oflBcial, and I think oAe can safely say, 
 -'■•Without fear of contradiction, that it would be k very 
 hard matter indeed to find three in every ten men 
 who had been at the grain work for say thred years and. 
 upwards that could breathe freely, or dare gd into 
 any kind of grain cargo. They would have to pick 
 
 • their cargoes. 
 
 3763. Are men prevented from doing any work at all 
 
 iby complaints that arise from working in grain car- 
 goes? For instance, were you yourself ever away for 
 
 •a week through having contracted some complaint 
 through working in a grain cargo? — ^Yes, I was away 
 
 "nine days in 1888 with my eyes and throat bad. I 
 thought I should be afflicted the whole of my life with 
 iny eyes. They became very much inflamed, which I 
 had never suffered before going into grain cargoes. I 
 
 ' had io bathe them with different lotions. Oncei I 'got 
 the lotion from a London hospital, and another time 
 
 "1 got it from an ordinary doctor, but each time thete 
 was a likeness between the lotions I had to bathe my 
 
 -.eyes with, and I had to gargle my throat. 
 
 . 3764. Do you attribute that to working . in grain 
 icargoes? — ^Yes, I know of nothing else .to which to 
 . attribute :it. 
 
 3765. Have you come across other men working in 
 "those cargoes who were similarly affected from similar 
 
 • causes, or is it only a inatter of a few men ? — Many 
 men are taken oiit of the ships' holds because they are 
 
 'absolutely exhausted. Thosei would be ipen who had 
 ioUowed up the work for a year or so, and having been 
 idle for a time and not in a position to refuse a job, 
 ithey have gone down into it may be an exceptional 
 cargo, or an ordinary Black Sea or Baltic cargo, and 
 ihey very soon got exhausted. Then it is a question 
 -. of being out" of the ship's hold for a few hours. I'hey 
 may be taken off in the middle of a day and be capable 
 of going back next morning, but I know of several 
 who dare not go down a ship's hold at all now to 
 "bushel grain — it would be a matter of facing death 
 ^with them. It would be an easy matter to get at the 
 Victoria Docks or along the south side of the Albert 
 •Docks, or in the Millwall or Surrey Commercial 
 ' Docks many of these cases ; it would not be a question 
 ■of getting onei here and there. The singular thing 
 -would be if you found one man hot affected by work- 
 ing among the grain. 
 
 3766. Those points are of great importance in con- 
 nection with preventing these complaints, and intro- 
 
 ' ducihg better methods of handling cargoes, but we are 
 concerned here with the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act, of course, and the real question we have to dis- 
 
 ■ cuss is what diseases should be scheduled as subjects 
 for compensation, and there can only be com- 
 pensation under . the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act if a man is incapacitated owing to disease for a 
 
 ■ period of one week or more. In connection with Dock 
 "work, if a man is prevented by a feeling of discomfort 
 from going among grain cargoes, and feels ill and 
 
 'does not work at the grain cargo at all, it would not 
 be a subject of compensation, nor would it be a subject 
 
 • of compensation if he were incapacitated for an hour 
 or two or for one or two days. Do you find men made 
 actually ill, as you yourself were made ill, through 
 working in these particular kinds of cargo, and 
 thereby incapacitated from working for a week or 
 more ? — Yes. I referred to that class of men when I 
 
 ■ mentioned those you would find at the Dock gates. 
 
 3767. But they are not prevented from working, are 
 they ; they can work at some other employment, can- 
 not they? — ^No, unless they get a very, very light job 
 indeed, which is not offered to a man of this kind. 
 
 "Fox instance, a man who had difficulty in breathing 
 -or was eaten up with asthma might be able to sweep 
 -a room, where there would not be dust but ordinary 
 
 litter. That is work reserved for very old men who i r,. n- nrhi-Ji 
 are considered beyond work. You would find men at ■ -^ 
 
 45 who would be o? no use foi: any other work than 21 Dec 1906 
 that. " -■ ■ ' - 
 
 3768. Do the men' work at one time for one com- 
 pany and -at .another time for another comipany ? Dock 
 labour is' casual' laibou'r to a great extent. If a man 
 owing to asthnia were obliged to give up his ordinal^ 
 work at the age of 45, who do you suggest should pay 
 him compensation?— If he is in the haJbit of working 
 ill grain he would have his regular gang, and therefore 
 
 , would be more or less working under one particular 
 firm, and I should suggest that his employer that was 
 should compensate him. If it was the Grain Elevator 
 
 'Domp'sny they would be the employers. 
 
 ( ' 3769. But a man might be developiing asthma for a 
 .period of 20 years. Would you go back and include 
 
 .all the personjs he. bad worked for during that time? 
 —I am afraid that wo.uld be a question for the law 
 
 \to decide or someone else; I oould not decide on that. 
 
 3770-. (Professor Allhutt.) What you have said does 
 
 not apply to all cargoes, does it ? Do you confine your- 
 
 ^self to wheat ?-^I am speaking of grain cargoes. Some 
 are worse than others. 
 
 3771. Does the extraaieous dust or dirt or smell only 
 ; apply to cargoes from the Black Sea ? — No. ; they 
 .would 'be the worst; I have never worked in a cargo 
 
 that has nod; more or less been choking with dust or 
 
 blue stone or lime; 
 
 3772; Would you say in a large proportion, of these 
 cases there is dust, enough to set up these symptoms 
 feooner or later? — ^Yes, I should say so. 
 
 3773. Do you go soi far as t» say that it would be 
 found in all of them, even Canadian cargoes and cleali 
 
 ■ whe^t? — I have worked :among the Canadian cargoes, 
 but it would be an exception to find a Canadian cargo 
 
 , as bad as .the Black, iSea and Baltic cargoes. Blaok 
 'Sea and Baltio oairgoe's' are, generally bad, but a Canadian 
 
 cargo would have to be a very bad cargo to be equal 
 •toi a Black iSea ordinary cargo. But even Canadian 
 
 wheat hasi dust in it, and affects anybody working in it. 
 
 3774. Do you know how the dust gets there ? — No, 
 
 ■ I only know that it is there. - ■ - 
 
 3775. What do yoii, think is the average duration, of 
 a grain' poirter's working life ? Does he begin to w6i:k 
 
 ' y<>uhg ?^-^It is 'a job to find a -man who has followed lip 
 the work working to-day at 45. ' 
 
 3776; But what iime does he begin? — ^That I could 
 not say. I Only know that I fortunately was able to 
 to pick my cargoes. 
 
 3777. At what age would a man be strong enough to 
 ' be accepted as a gi^aih porter ? Do they begin at 20 or 
 
 30?-^You; might- find somei amongst theon who would 
 : be 25 years of aige, a capaJble maai, and it may be pos- 
 sible ito trace that man at 45 when he would be better 
 than an average man at 45, but I cannot give you a 
 general idea a-i to the age they would start at as a grain 
 porter. It is a question of working up into the gang. 
 A man may work at the docks for a considerable 
 time, and then get into a grain gang. The grain gangs 
 are not looked upon as ordinary casual workers. A 
 man knows his employer, aaid knows whan the ship 
 comes in be is right for a job on that ship. 
 
 3778. Then there is some regularity of employment, 
 is there, among the grain porters? — ^Yos. 
 
 3779. In a sense it is a skilled employment, is it ; 
 it is nob eveiyfbody who can do it, I suppose ? — ^No. 
 
 3780. Therefore a man cannot drift out of something 
 else and become a grain porter ? — ^No. 
 
 3781. Therefore they must begin, I suppose, at some 
 definite age and be brought up to it ? — A man generally 
 gets on first at weighing, an;d then probably over the 
 hatch, and finally he gets worked into the gang, andl 
 gets down into the hold bushelling, holding up the 
 sack, and then taking turns with the trimming. 
 
 3762. Is it possible to say whether beginning early 
 or late in life would make much difference as to the 
 result? — ^I do not think it would. 
 
 3783. It is a very laborious employment, I suppose ? 
 —It is. 
 
 3784. Is it one of the most laborious of labour 
 employments ? — I should say it would class among one 
 of the most laborious. 
 
 3785. Does it consist in ca.nying wheat in sacks ? — 
 Yes, that would be the backing. It depends on the 
 nature of the cargo and the nature of your order. 
 
118 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr.H.Orbell. 3786. Would a man cany as much as eight bushels 
 — ' of wheat on his back at a time ? — ^Yes. A sack of wheat 
 
 21 Dec. 1906. generally runs to albout 2 cwt, - 
 
 ~~^^^ 3787. Whether it afiects the heart or not I suppose 
 
 you do not know, or shall we have to ask medical men 
 about that? — I think so. I cannot itell you about 
 that. I should like to say that the notice I received 
 was so short that I had to depend to a large extent 
 on my own personal experience for information. I 
 should have liked really to have Ibrougjit you statistics 
 to have proved the case right up to the hilt. It would 
 hare (been quit© an easy matter if I hatt had more time 
 to have got an average of the duration of laibour, and 
 how long they are capable o-f keeping up to a standard 
 pitch of work, and also I could have got doctors and 
 so on. Such details I admit I have not been able to 
 get, not ibeoaus© they are not get-at-able, but simply 
 because the time has been too short. I could get them, 
 if necessary, afterwards. 
 
 3788. Do you think that the muscular labour is any 
 consideraibl© element in the injury done, or do you think 
 it is entirely due to dust and asthma ? — ^I do not think 
 that the carrying of the bags and the running up of the 
 planks will cause asthma. 
 
 3789. But do you think it makes the men short of 
 breath? — That part of the business never made me 
 short of breath. I could do a week or ten days or a 
 month backing, running the plank, which is the hardest 
 part of the work, better than I could do three days of 
 buahelling — I should be a better man afterwards. 
 
 3790. (Dr. Legge.) Do you complain more of the dry- 
 ness of the throat, inflammation of the eyes, and the 
 bleeding of the nose, than of the chest symptoms? — 
 Thosie are the first effects — ^th© ©yes and nos© and 
 throat, and there is a kind of sulphur tast© in the 
 mouth. 
 
 3791. Which you attribute to th© dust and blue 
 stone, do you P — Yes. 
 
 3792. Oould you get a sample of that blue stone P — 
 T©s, I have a sample at home, and I meant to bring it, 
 but I forgot it. I will send it. 
 
 3793. Have you in the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and 
 General Workers' Union classes of men who do not work 
 ill dusty occupations lik© grain — for instance, orange 
 porters or people transferring ooalP — W© have orange 
 porters in our Union. 
 
 3794. Are they a very small number P — Th© orange 
 porters, or what we call the fruit porters, number about 
 300. 
 
 3795. The Committee would like to compare the 
 '_ average duration of life of the men who are exposed to 
 
 the dust in the grain of cargoes with that of the orange 
 porters, who would not be exposed to dust? — Just so. 
 Judging from the general appearance of the men, and 
 my knowledge of those men, they work to a much 
 greater age than the average corn porter. 
 
 3706. Do you get medical certificates in the case of all 
 the men who have to leave work.P^ — No,, "we have no sick 
 pay attached to our Union, therefore these men do not 
 really come under compensation in any way, or receive 
 any benefit from th© Union so far as sickness is con- 
 cerned. I do not know, unless they belong to a friendly 
 society that has sick pay attached to it, where they 
 demand a doctor's certificate, how that could b© got. 
 
 3797. Then the statistics you referto would have no 
 bearing on the complaints from which they suffer, would 
 they P— I should go round, .knowing these corn gangs 
 and having known them for a great number of years, 
 tO' those I worked with and ask them when they started, 
 and what time they were compelled to knock off owing 
 to th© effects of th© grain. That would answer the 
 questions when they started work and when they were 
 compelled to knock off. It would be quite an easy 
 matter to get the number following up th© work, and 
 you would get tO' know from them the number of yeafls 
 they had been doing it. 
 
 3798. But that would not give what they were 
 actually suffering from P — Of course not ; but they say 
 themselves, and you would only want to glance at them 
 to see that they were suffering from the effects of the 
 work. 
 
 3799. It has been stated in evidence that, owing to 
 the arduous nature of certain work and the dryness 
 produced, that the men take alcohol i,n large quantities. 
 What do you say as to that ? — ^Unfortunately it is the 
 case generally, but not in every case. For instance, 
 
 that could not be applied to me, for I am practically a. 
 life abstainer, yet it had th© same effect on me. But 
 there was that fortunate part of th© business that if j. 
 had ibeen working in a dusty cargo for a fortnight-or 
 three weeks I would take particular care I would not 
 ehow up to such a job again, but would endeavour to- 
 get something else, although it was less money, and try 
 by baths and taking proper care to get myself ri^t,. 
 But then, you see, everybody could not do that ; all of ' 
 them do not do that. What I drank was simply oat. 
 meal and water with tartaric acid. 
 
 3801. (Chairman.) With regard to the men who work, 
 in cargoes of hides, do you find any of them are pre- 
 vented from working for a period of a week or more- 
 through their employment ? — Yes. That is quite- 
 common on the P. and O. boats, or I might say all boats- 
 that trade 'between England and' Calcutta and Bomha^, 
 There are two kinds of hides. There is the green hide 
 and the dry hide. In the dry hide there is an insect, 
 th© same as you find in th© green hide. I do not know 
 th© name of it, but they can be picked from them. As- 
 soon as this fly or insect bites them the men have to go- 
 to the doctors to have the piece of flesh taken out 
 entirely, which in some cases means a long illness, 
 because until it is healed a man cannot follow up hig. 
 work at all. 
 
 3802. Does the bite cause a pimple of any kindP— I- 
 have seen two' or three men who were bitten, and on»- 
 when he was bitten simply felt an itching sensation, 
 then a slight red spot that got inflamed showed itself, 
 and it was suggested he should go to the doctor ; away 
 he w©nt, and th© n©xt we knew of him was coming; 
 back in a fortnight or three weeks' time with the plac« 
 healed up, and he was capable of working again. That: 
 was the first introduction I had to that kind of insect. 
 
 3803. Have you heard of any fatal cases from that ? — 
 Yes. There was a man who lived in Bumside Street,. 
 Grove Road. He was working on the south side of the • 
 Albert Dock. He was bitten somewhere in the arm, 
 and he went home and had a poultice put on it, think- 
 ing it was simply an ordinary poison, and within a. 
 ooupl© of days h© was dead. Tile thing is so much, 
 known round the docks now that as soon as ever a manj 
 gets a bite away he goes, and it is only a question of iki 
 few weeks' illness. , , 
 
 3804. Do you know whether that has been certifiedi 
 by the doctors to be anthrax P — ^Yes, that is th© name- 
 of it. 
 
 3805. That is already scheduled in th© Workmen's-- 
 Compensation Act? — Then the next thing is bleedinfe:; 
 at the nose and ears, caused by vomiting while at work 
 on these 'green hides. The stench is dreadful. I have- 
 had to knock off work in consequence of it. 
 
 3806. But you would not be laid up and incapable of 
 doing work for a week, would you ? — Yes! I do not 
 know of a man who is capable of doing two days' work 
 .continuously on those hides. Those who are compelled.. 
 to follow up that kind of business are taken off ihe 
 .gre©n hides to-day, put to another job to-morrow, and- 
 then back again on the green hides. As soon as tlte 
 ship gets fairly well on the wayj so that they can dis- 
 charge some of the men, that liian 'is paid off with the 
 rest, because he is too ill to work, but you would have a . 
 job to prove that he was laid up beoaus© of that par- 
 ticular employment ; yet it occurs each time. 
 
 ; 3807. (Dr. Legge.) Are the green hides dry P — No, 
 they would be wet. They come over bundled up. They" 
 ,are not just as they were taken- off-, the leasts' baote, . 
 but they have that appearance. . , ■ ... 
 
 3808. Then the symptoms would not be -due to dusf , . 
 would they P— No. When handling green hides, if a 
 man has th© slightest scratch on him it generally sets ■ 
 up blood poisoning. With the dry hides, if you get 
 ever such a slight scratch from them, unless your blood.' 
 is in very good condition, you may depend upon it you 
 will' get blood poisoning. 
 
 Z8QQ. (Prof essor Anhutt) Does not that go back 
 
 to anthrax ?^— It is in both. It is more common 
 
 in some hides than others. For instance, the hides- 
 
 which come from Calcutta are very dangerous indeed 
 
 A man eould not very well prick his skin with the dry 
 
 , hides, but he might scratch it without' noticing it.' V 
 
 .have handled them hundreds of times, and I know 
 
 ,, the\ are very sharp indeed, some of them.' For 
 
 instance, at the corners they come to a point. If yqu- 
 
 ■ prick yourself with it, unless your blood is in veiy 
 -good condition it means that you are in for an illneSS-- 
 
 ■ to a certainty. ' . .> 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 119 
 
 3810. {Chairman.) With regard to men who are 
 -working in cargoes of ore, what complaint do they 
 suffer from? — ^I will deal with that if you like, but 
 another witness, I think, will deal with it better than 
 I can. 
 
 3811. You state that in some of the northern ports 
 the men ar© exposed to other dajigens. Hav© you any 
 specific cases to bring before the notice of the Com- 
 mittee ? — Yes, and I think it would save a lot of your 
 time if I hand you a statement which contains facts 
 all within my own knowledge. I know every one of 
 
 - the cases personally, and I know every case mentioned 
 there except the cases of death. 
 
 3812. One case you mention 1 see is that of a man 
 suffering from erysipelas, which is stated to be due 
 to his employment ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3813. What was his employment ? — He was a Bight- 
 -Boil man under the Corporation. It is necessary work, 
 
 but objectionable work. 
 
 3814. In what town ? — ^Middlesbrough ; and I find on 
 inquiry that the same thing applies to almost all the 
 northern towns. The same thing applies to the whole 
 
 ■ of the Hartlepools, Stockton and Sunderland, and on 
 the north-east coast it applies to Hull, Grimsby, and 
 Goole. Then in Wales it applies to the outer parts 
 of Swansea, and as far as I can understand, though I 
 only quote those cases as cases in point, the same 
 
 -dangers apply elsewhere. The men employed in this 
 work are a body of men who are rarely taken notice 
 
 -of; they are doing very necessary work, and are 
 
 exposed to great dangers, which are likely to spread, Mr.B.OxMl. 
 and do spread in the shape of such fevers as typhoid. '. 
 
 3815. Are they members of your Union ?— The men ^1 Dec.-1 .906. 
 in Middlesboro' and Swansea happen to be in our ' 
 Union ; in the other towns the men would belong either "" " 
 to the municipal unions or to no union at all. 
 
 3816. Do they suffer from any other disease besides 
 erysipelas ? — Yes, poisoned blood, typhoid fever. You 
 have in the list a case of death, I think, from typhoid; 
 You have a case also recorded there where a man con- 
 veyed typhoid fever home to his children who were in 
 the sick bedroom. I could get similar proof from 
 other towns if I had time to do so. 
 
 . 3817. (Professor Allbutt.) Well, any of us are liable' 
 to have typhoid fever, are we not, from accidental in- 
 fection ? — Yes. 
 
 3818. You would have to show, would you not, that 
 there' was a very large, an excessive, amount of disease' 
 amongst these men? — Yes. We are all liable to catch 
 typhoid fever ; still, there are some classes of business'' 
 which expose you more to the danger of having it. 
 
 • 3819. You must bring forward, I think, not indi- 
 vidual cases, but some statistics showing excessive 
 prevalence, something beyond the ordinary incidence? 
 —Yes ; but you have a case there of one man suffering, 
 another man conveying it to his family, another one' 
 dying, another catching erysipelas, and the doctor's 
 statement I think shows that it is something out of the 
 oj^dinary. That is all with a small body of men. I 
 suppose in that particular town there would not be 200 . 
 men, if there were that number, employed in the work. 
 
 Mr. James WiQNALii,' called and examined" 
 
 3820. {Chairman.) Are you an ofScial of the Dockers' 
 
 Union ? — Yes. 
 
 '3821. Have you had experience of men working in 
 ■•cargoes of ore ? — Yes. 
 
 3822. Do they suffer from any disease or complaint 
 from their employment, in your opinion? — Yes. I 
 .haye tried to classify them as well as 1 could, and I 
 should prefer, if you would allow me, to commence with 
 the discharging and working of pitch, which is used in 
 the manufacture of patent fuel, and which is one of 
 the items of dock work. I have tabulated a statement 
 showing the various illnesses the men suffer from, 
 which I will hand in. 
 
 ■3823. Are these men incapacitated from following 
 their employment or any employment ? — They are in- 
 
 ■ capacitated from following their employment. Some 
 of them, you see marked as incapacitated for various 
 pferiods extending from a week to six months. ' Every 
 
 ■ case has come under my personal observation ; they 
 are well known tO' me, and I give the names of the 
 doctors who have attended them. 
 
 ,3824. Can you present to the , Committee any 
 medical evidence on behalf of your Union with refer- 
 ence to pitch poisoning? Is there any doctor in 
 SVansea or any of the neighbouring parts who could 
 ■give evidence on this particular matter? — You will 
 notice that I mention that several operations have 
 ■been performed by Dr. Brook, one of the most eminent 
 surgeons in the town. Then I give the name of Dr. 
 E'. B. Evans, who has had a large experience in dealing 
 with this. disease. Then Dr. Joseph Davies and Dr. 
 Newell have had considerable experience in dealing 
 with these cases. Then there is Dr. Rhys Davies, who 
 is treating cases at the present moment. All those men 
 have treated these cases, and could give you evidence 
 if you desire it. I have had no conversation or com- 
 munication with the doctors. The fuel trade is a 
 trade peculiar to South Wales. I think there is not 
 much of it done except at Swansea, Port Talbot, and 
 "Newport. 
 
 3825. What are the first symptoms of pitch poison- 
 ing? — It affects the men by causing what we know as 
 pitch warts, and it affects the eyes. The pitch is im- 
 ported in railway trucks or in small sailing craft ; the 
 men are employed in getting it out, and transporting 
 it to the works, where it is ground up in the factory. 
 The men working in the pitch directly are most 
 -.seiiously affected, but the other men employed at fuel 
 "works are also affected, but perhaps to a lesser extent. 
 
 3826. , After the warts, what are the next symptoms ? 
 — They come out <m various parts of the body, aaid 
 develop into cancer and other very serious complica- 
 tions, which a medical man could explain better than 
 I .can: In other cases it affects the eyes, which become 
 very red and blistered, and frequently there is partial, 
 and in some cases total, blindness. One man named 
 Mills lost his eyesight about 14 years ago. 
 
 3827. Do you attribute that to working in pitch ?^ 
 Absolutely; nothing else. And it is painful to^ see 
 some of the men now working in the pitch-bins, who 
 are more or less partially blinded — not able to work in ' 
 any other employment, but simply waiting till the cad. 
 
 3828. Do I understand you to say these men work! 
 in docks? — Yes ;, the discharging of pitch and the load- 
 ing of fuel is dock labour. Ilien the factory is adjacent 
 to the dock, and the men. inside the facliory work in 
 the factory, but: they are not co^vered by compensation, 
 becaus© there is no compensation for illness. • That is 
 what we are hoping to get. I have tried to distinguish 
 thi3 actual effect on health, apart from accidents. No 
 cises I mpntion in that paper have ever received com- 
 pensation to the best of my knowledge. 
 
 3829. Do the men who work in the factory suffeir 
 from thesi3 complaints? — The men dealing with the 
 pitch suffer very acutely, and the men in the other 
 departments suffer, but not so acutely, as the men at 
 the pitch-bins. Yon caruiot see a man sometimes for 
 the dust from the pitch in the grinding process. Cer- 
 tain men have to attend to the grinding machine, and 
 then there ar© other men who tak© the pitch away. ■ 
 
 3830. What is done with the pitch after it is ground ? 
 —Then it is run through a machine to mix with the 
 coal to make patent fuel blocks. The pitch comes 
 from one direction, the small coal from another 
 direction ; they me©t together, they ar© mixed up -with 
 steam, and then pressed into square bricks. ITieni it 
 is thro^wn up in the shape of hot bricks, which are 
 taken away and shipped. The men employed in the 
 work are all more or less seriously affected. A man 
 
 named has gone through three operations, and 
 
 has had his testicles removed, and his case is a most 
 pitiable one. 
 
 3831. What was his case ? Was it a case of ■cancer ? 
 — I would not like to say, not knowing from the doctor, 
 but he has had one of his testicles taken out He is a 
 living testimony to the dangerous character of the 
 work. Another man is troubled in a private part of 
 the body, and has had a part of it removed. Tbs same 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Wignall, 
 
120 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. ' 
 Wigrudl. 
 
 21 Dec. 1906. 
 
 thing will apply to Cardiff, Port Talbot, and Newport. '' 
 I have mentioned in the list two or three very bad 
 cases from those places. 
 
 3832. Do you think these cases occur among men 
 working in the pitch over a series of years, or do 
 they occur among men who have only just started to 
 work?' — ^No. It is a peculiarity of the whole thing. 
 There are men who go through showing the symptoms, 
 but not very seriously, and there are other men who 
 are almost immediately affected either in their eyes or 
 in the body, and have to seek employment elsewhere. 
 Some hang on to it, and are incapacitated for various 
 periods, and then are totally incapacitated from work. 
 These men somehow or other have got into the groove, 
 and simply stick on till they are finished. 
 
 3833. What ara these diseases called in the trade ? — ■ 
 Among the men they are called pitch-warts ; pitch 
 poisoning I suppose would be the proper term for it. 
 
 .3834. (Professor Allbutt.) The pitch poisoning would 
 have a general effect on the constitution, would 
 it not ? — Yes, it affects them in various ways. I 
 know of a case where a man was picked up dead. 
 He was working in the pitch-bin, and I heard that his 
 body was litorally plugged up with pitch. I know the 
 man personally, and he looked almost like a piece of 
 
 C" ih. His face had gone the colour of the pitch, so 
 hifi hands, and all the men are so affected in their 
 appearance, some worse than others. This man had 
 not 'been brought up to the pitch business ; he had gone 
 to work there in middle age, I should not think he had 
 worked at it many years, and it seemed to affect him. 
 I have not had time to collect all the evidence I should 
 like to put before the CJomniittee. I oould have got a 
 list six times as large as I have. I have only given you 
 the cases which I baew of absolutely. 
 
 3835. (Chairman.) With regard to men who are 
 engaged in discharging cargoes of ores, what complaints 
 or diseases do you consider they suffer from owing to 
 their employment? — In South Wales there is a large 
 amount of minerals imported, and amongst them there 
 is a sulphide ore which affects men badly and brings on 
 paralysis. We do not get so much of it as we have had 
 in Swansea when there was a factory established for 
 dealing with it, but during the period of three or four 
 years, when we had large importations of this ore, all 
 the men were more or less affected, aiid I remember in 
 the case of one particular cargo, which I mention in my 
 statement, the men ahsolut^y refused to work it, ae 
 they were so affected in health, ajid an outside gang 
 was brought in. In the Bristol. Channel we always 
 work in gangs, and a man in a particular branch of 
 employmient follows that employment. 
 
 3836. Do the men suffer from lead poisoning? — I 
 should call it lead' poisoning, but I am not a medical 
 man. It being a kind of lead ore, I should take it a 
 doctor would certify it to be lead poisoning. 
 
 3837. Then they are included in the schedule, you 
 see P — If you include the discharge and the handling of 
 ores as well as the process of the manufacture in the 
 schedule that is right, and that is what I strongly 
 recommend. 
 
 3838. You ha,ve had a number of cases of lead poison- 
 ing amongst the men, have you? — Yes. They are 
 starting a new factory in Port Talbot, and the trade 
 is coming back, and we shall have a large number of 
 cases. The man Walker I have named died from 
 paralysis afterwards, and several others I know of 
 who never suffered before commencing work on this 
 lead ore. At the present time there is very little of 
 it, but we are expecting a large quantity of it, and 
 if you include the handling of the ore in the process 
 of manufacture that would meet it. Then there is 
 an arsenic ore, of which we have large quantitie*. 
 which affects men by olistering the body and burning 
 the eyes, and we have difficulty in getting the men 
 to work on it at all. 
 
 3839. Are they incapacitated for a period of a week 
 or more ? — ^Yes ; I have known them to be incapaci- 
 tated for two, three, four, or five weeks. 
 
 3840. By arsenical poisoning? — Yes, by arsenical 
 poisoning. I take it that that would be a trad© that 
 would be scheduled, and if the discharge of the ore 
 is included that would meet the case, 
 
 3841. Copper precipitate is' ?,nother ore, is it?-^ 
 Yes, copper precipitate. That is used largely in the 
 manufacture of copper, and that affects the men much 
 
 in the same way, only it does not blister the body so;; 
 badly, it affects them internally more, bringing oa,, 
 asthma and chest troubles of all kinds. 
 
 3842. Is there any doctor in Swansea or the neigh- 
 bourhood who could give evidence on that subject?— 
 I should think that Dr. E. B. Evans could give you. 
 evidence on practically the whole thing. He is a,. 
 man who has an enormous practice, and I should 
 thiiji also Dr. McManus Soden, who is the medical 
 man for a large number of clubs, and the docks, could 
 give you information. 
 
 3843. Then there is the discharging of calamine for- 
 the manufacture of spelter. What is spelter?— 
 Spelter is a metal which is manufactured and largely - 
 used for the making of yeUow metal and varin . 
 ous other kinids of metal. It is a mixture > 
 which goes with copper for the manufacture of yellow 
 metal. Spelter is also used in a liquid state for the 
 coating of steel sheets in the manufacture of galvanised ' 
 corrugated sheets. This trade is peculiar to Swansea, 
 I may say. I do not know whether Swansea is noted 
 for all the unhealthy occupations, but we are glad to. 
 have them there, and it is a very busy centre. 
 
 3844. Is not that lead poisoning also? — I should j 
 say so. A doctor would tell you, but I should say tha- 
 symptoms are those of lead poisoning. This calamine • 
 is very dusty, and it blinds and chokes the men. If, 
 you were over the hatchway of a ship discharging, 
 calamine you would be inclined to run away as 
 quickly as you could. The men wear sponges over 
 their mouths and glasses over their eyes, but they 
 cannot work in it long, and are frequently incapaci- 
 tated. I know men who after working one cargo of 
 calamine cannot do anything for a month. They have- 
 to get cleansed, and go to the doctors for medicine to- 
 clean it out of them. Our men are apportioned ia. 
 sections, and a man is a weekly servant at our docks. 
 He draws his weekly pay, and the same man will 
 follow the same employment from the time he starts, 
 till his death. Tlie same men are always employed 
 in the various departments. The men who discharge • 
 the calamine would discharge all kinds of ores, I 
 should like to draw your attention to another ore 
 which you have not mentioned, spathic calcined ore, 
 which is used in the manufacture of steel, and so far" 
 as I can see it must be a new discovery on the part of " 
 someone or other, because when the raw iron ore wss- 
 coming in there was no difficulty, and there is no- 
 difficulty now. There is a large quantity of ore coming:,, 
 still, but this spathic ore is a burnt ore, and in the ■ 
 process of calcining it there is evidently a large 
 quantity of lime used. They put it into the ships- 
 hot, and I have seen it with the fire in it when being., 
 discharged. That causes an enormous amount of 
 dust and immense suffering to the men. I have given . 
 two cases which ocurred at Newport this year, where- 
 the men were bleeding and had to be brought out of 
 the hold. One man I knew bled for three days at 
 intervals after he had worked some few days on this- 
 stuff. In fact, the men in September gave notice - 
 that they would not work any more of this ore at any 
 price, or whatever the consequence might be, becauss- 
 it was so injurious to health. The imports of it are 
 becoming greater, and evidently there is a hugs 
 profit made by using it, or it is better for the process 
 of the manufacture of steels. Every year the imports 
 get greater, and what will be the ultimate outcome of ' 
 it I do not know ; but I can assure you the men 
 resent very strongly having to work it at all. In mjr 
 opinion, next to pitch, this spathic ore is the most 
 dangerous thing that men have ever been called upon^ 
 to deal with. It is brutal and cruel, and terrible to- 
 see the men in th^ holds of these steamboats. If the- 
 Committee could go on board and see theni that wonli'r 
 be the best evidence of all. 
 
 S845. (Chairman.) Are the men incapacitated froin 
 working at any other employment for a week or more? 
 — Yes, for a week or a month. 
 
 3845. (Br. Legge.) Do you say this is at Newport?— 
 At Newport, Cardiff, and Swansea, but I think the 
 worst place of the lot is Newport. Cardiff is next, 
 and is very bad. I could have got a batch of names 
 and addresses of the men, but I did not attempt to- 
 get them as I did not want to give any evidence except 
 what I knew of my own personal knowledge. I have- 
 given a list of names of men in one of th^ friendly 
 societies which the secretary gave me, all of whom 
 were treated by Dr. Evans, and they are employed-' 
 at only one spelter works out of four. If I had had- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 121 
 
 time I could have got a similar list from each of the 
 works, of men suffering in the same way. I think there 
 is another important matter to mention. In some ports 
 men are employed to clea:p. out infected ships — ships 
 -that are declared to have had fever cases on board — 
 (typhoid or other fe^rs — troopships and others, espe- 
 cially at Southampton. These men are sent on board, 
 and perhaps have to work there 36 hours. They have 
 to be certified by the sanitary authority before they 
 •can go back to the world again. A man may be found 
 to be contaminated, and may be sent to a hospital 
 or sanatorium, and may be idle four and six weeks 
 -with no chance of compensation. These men are ex- 
 posed to all the dangers of cleaning an infected ship, 
 and then they have to remain until they are declared 
 hy the sanitary authorities to be clean. If a man is 
 iound to have contracted fever through cleaning out 
 s, bad ship he is sent to the hospital or sanatorium, 
 
 and may be there two or three months, and get no Mr. J. 
 compensation at all. Wiqnall. 
 
 3847. Have you had actual cases of the kind occur- 
 
 ring? — ^I can get them for you. A case occurred last 21 Dec. 1906. 
 
 summer at Southampton, and the men complained 
 
 bitterly to me about it ; but they are not safeguarded 
 
 in any way. The men must not leave the ship till it 
 is finished, and then they have to be examined by 
 the sanitary inspector. 
 
 3848. (Professor Allbutt.) If you could prove any 
 cases in which the disease was an imported dis- 
 ease, imported as plague is, for example, it would 
 strengthen your case very much. Can you do so ? — I 
 will do my best, but you see my point. It may be that 
 if a man is sent to the sanatorium, and he is there two 
 or three months, he may be forgotten, but his family 
 has to suffer because of a disease he has contracted - 
 during his employment. 
 
 Mr. HowELii Lewis, called and examined. 
 
 3849. (Chairman.) Are you an ofiScer of the Dock 
 labourers' Union? — I am. 
 
 3850. Do you also belong to the Swansea District 1— 
 Yes. 
 
 3851. Have you heard Mr. Wignall's evidence ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3852. Is there anything you wish to add to it ? — I am 
 representing a particular trade — that is, the tinplate 
 •trade. 
 
 3853. Do the tinplate workers belong to the Dock, 
 "Wharf, Riverside and General Workers' Union ? — Yes. 
 
 3854. Are the men engaged in that employment 
 subject to special diseases arising from the industry? 
 —They are, and I have proof of it. I have had expe- 
 lience myself extending over 25 years. When I started 
 in the tinplate trade, palm oil or grease was used when 
 "Coating the iron with tin, but since 1889 flux has been 
 introduced. It is composed of sulphuric acid and 
 •spelter, and is placed on molten tin, which is heated 
 to 500 F., and the fumes arising from it affect the men 
 «o much that the result is asthma. Professor Attfield, 
 on May 16th, 1891, came down from London and 
 .analysed the flux at a certain tinplate works and he 
 proved that it, or the fumes arising from it, were 
 injurious to the health of the men working there. In 
 *iddition to that, the bran usea when the palm-oil 
 process was in existence was pure bran, but since flux 
 has been introduced it has been found easier to clean 
 the plates with a bran composed of pink meal (which 
 is a deadly poison) mixed with soot and lime, which is 
 so light that it flies about, and everyon© working in the 
 department sufiers by inhaling it. 
 
 3855. In what way do they suffer ? — They suffer from 
 shortness of breath and trouble with the respiratory 
 organs, such as the nostrils, mouth, throat, and lungs. 
 
 3856. Are the ailments resulting from the flux and 
 "the mixture you mentioned the same ? — Yes. 
 
 3857. Are they ailments of the respiratory organs 1 — 
 Yes. 
 
 3858. Do you consider that the ailments from which 
 these workers suffer are different, or are similar to the 
 ailments prevailing amongst the rest of the population, 
 if the latter do you think that they are more liable to 
 asthma than other people are? — I believe the inhaling 
 -of the fumes of the flux affects healthy strong men in 
 •course of time. I myself worked for 15 years with 
 palm oil and never suffered any effects at all, but after 
 T had had seven years with flux I had to give it up. I 
 was at home sometimes for a week to six weeks at a 
 time, and I know of men now who are obliged to stay 
 home from six to eight weeks, especially during the 
 ■winter months. 
 
 3859. When you were laid up on these occasions were 
 yovL suffering from some form of asthma ? — Yes. 
 
 3860. Have you suffered from it since you gave up 
 the work ? — ^Yes. I get an attack of it now and again, 
 because I do not think I have got rid of the poison. I 
 inhaled. 
 
 3861. Is there any medical man in the district from 
 which you come who could give expert evidence to the 
 Committee on the point? — Yes, Dr. J. Bernard Gabe 
 and Dr. Jones, both of Morriston, could. 
 
 3852. (Professor Allbutt.) You have spoken of two 
 •causes of irritation, one from fumes ? — Yes. 
 419 
 
 3863. Is that from the flux when it is melted ? — Yes. ^jf^. ff_ Lewis. 
 
 3864. Is it a kind of smoke ? — Yes. Plates or sheets 
 
 are taken from a trough full of water which has 
 particles of sulphuric acid in it and are passed through 
 
 the flux into the molten metal to receive their coating, 
 and while these sheets are being so treated the fumes 
 arise and affect the men because they have to stand 
 over the bath of molten tin and must inhale the fumes. 
 
 3865. Then, independent of that, is there a dry dust 
 which affects them? — Yes. 
 
 3866. Are the effects of the fumes and the dust, as 
 far as you are able to compare them, the same? — I 
 believe one helps the other. The dust, of course, clogs 
 the nostrils. 
 
 3867. Is the same person exposed to both the fumes 
 and the dust? — Yes. 
 
 3868. So' that yO'U cannot say how much of the mis- 
 chief may be due to the fumes and how much to the 
 dust ?— No. 
 
 3869. Do you think the symptoms are very much the 
 same as those described by Mr. Wignall from the in- 
 halation of other dust ? — Yes. 
 
 3870. (Vr. Legge.) How many years is it since you 
 gave up working in tinplate works ? — Going on for six 
 years. 
 
 3871. How long is it since palm oil was universally 
 given up in the industry? — ^It was somewhere about 
 1888. 
 
 3872. That is nearly 20 years ago ? — Yes. 
 
 3873. And since that time has practically nothing 
 but chloride of zinc been used ? — That is all. It is a 
 quicker process of coating tinplate, and cheaper in my 
 opinion. 
 
 3874. When was the inquiry you referred to made 
 by Professor Attfield ?— In 1891. 
 
 3875. Have you seen his report ? — Yes, I have it here. 
 
 3876. Do you know whether it was made at the 
 request of the Home Office or not ? — I do not know. 
 
 3877. Do you know if it was made at the request of 
 your own Union? — I do not know whether it was or 
 not. 
 
 3878. Do you know to what he actually attributes the 
 injurious effects to which you have referred ; that he 
 does not attribute them to the chloride of zinc, but to 
 the hydrochloric acid fumes ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3879. That is not the same thing as zinc chloride 
 fume's, is it ? — He says : " In my opinion, the workmen 
 who coat sheets of iron with tin in the production of tin 
 plates do run risk of injury to health by the inhalation 
 of air containing fumes of hydrochloric acid." 
 
 3880. With regar3 to injury to health from the use 
 of pink meal, is it becoming universal in the tinplate 
 trade to use mechanical branning machines ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3881. Do you go inside tinplate works yourself now 
 and see the conditions which exist there? — Yes, now 
 and again. 
 
 3882. Is there any dust given off from those 
 machines ? — Yes, more than there was when girls used 
 to clean the sheets, because the machines tumble the 
 sheets from one trough to the other, which creates dust. 
 
 Q 
 
122 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. H. Leu-is. 3883. But it is done exceedingly slowly, is it not? — 
 
 Yes, it is, but every sheet has to be tumbled from one 
 
 21 Dec. 1906. trough to the other, and it is in that tumbling that the 
 dust is created. 
 
 3884. Where the plates are brushed by hand they 
 are allowed to flop down, are they not ? — Yes. 
 
 3885. People are not compelled to work beside the 
 machines, are they? It is a mechanical process 
 altogether, is it hot ? — Yes, but the machines are quite 
 close to the tinning pot, and naturally the draught of 
 the stack draws the light dust up and it comes into 
 contact with the tinman. 
 
 . 3886. But there is no person actually leaning over 
 the branning or cleaning machine where the pink meal 
 • is used, is there ? — No 
 
 3S87. Do you know what pink meal is, examined 
 under a microscope or chemically ? — No ; but I have 
 heard doctors say that pink meal is poisonous to 
 inhale. 
 
 3888. By poisonous, do you mean injurious to the 
 lungs 1 — Yes ; it is so light that practically after you 
 inhale it you can spit it up. 
 
 3889. Do you say that every person who comes into 
 contact with pink meal or the fumes suffer from the 
 effects of them ?— They do. 
 
 3890. What other effects besides asthma have you 
 noticed ? — It affects the skin where the skin is exposed. 
 
 3891. What is the cause of that ?— The fumes chiefly. 
 
 3892. In what way does it affect the skin ? — It creates 
 an irritation first of all, andthen the skin goes in red 
 blotches. 
 
 3893. Have you seen such cases yourself? — ^I have, 
 and have had it myself. 
 
 ' 3894. How do you know for certain that it is due to 
 the fumes or to the pink meal ; how do you know it is 
 ■not due to the weather? — The fumes have more effect, 
 undoubtedly, in the winter months than in the summer 
 months, but the dust and the pink meal do not have 
 more effect in the winter than in the summer. 
 
 3895. Have you any sick club in connection with your 
 branch of the Union ? — No, but I am certain you cannot 
 find a man tinning to-day at the age of 45, whereas 
 under the old process with the palm oil you could find 
 men of 50, and even 60 and 65 years of age, at woi'k at 
 the tinning process. Scores of men to-day are trying to 
 get their living outside. 
 
 3896. Can you give .any proportion of the men among 
 the tinners who are ill ? It is merely guess work on 
 your part, is it not ? — I have the names of six or seven 
 men here, and I could give you scores of others. I have 
 
 a case of a man named who I believe does not 
 
 work more than three months in the year. 
 
 3897. What does he suffer from ? — He is suffering 
 from asthma, caused entirely, by the doctor's evidence, 
 
 from his work. Then I have another case, , 
 
 who has been ill for eight months, but' has just com- 
 menced work again. He has been suffering very 
 
 severely from the same complaint. Then , a 
 
 tinman, has been home ill for the past 15 weeks ; and 
 
 , a young man, not more than 23 years of age, 
 
 has to keep his bed. 
 
 3898. What for ?— From the effects of these fumes. 
 
 3899. Is he medically attended by a doctor P — Yex, 
 
 Then there is another man named , who has beeii 
 
 suffering for a period of eight or nine months. 
 
 390O-1. Are the cases you have mentioned cases taken 
 at random, or do you know of many others ? — I know o£ 
 a good many more, but I have seen these personally,! 
 
 3902. But there are thousands of people employed ia 
 the tin-plating trade, are there not, and if the cases- 
 you have mentioned are the only cases they do not 
 represent a large proportion, do they? Are there SOft 
 men, do you think, employed as tinmen in your dis- 
 trict ? — ^Yes, more. 
 
 3903. But the number of cases you have given do not 
 suggest, do they, any great amount of illness amongst 
 them ? — But I am only giving you evidence as to practi. 
 cally two works in one district. 
 
 3904. Do you know anything about the conditions in 
 the other districts ? — Yes. 
 
 3905. Do you know the men employed there also?— 
 Yes. 
 
 3906. And you have not put down on your list every 
 case- ? — No. 
 
 3907. Morriston is the largest centre of th» 
 industry, is it not ? — Llanelly is the largest, I think ; 
 they may be as large as each other. 
 
 3906. How many tinmen are there in Morriston? 
 Have you included in your list those who suffer not 
 only from the fumes, but from the dust ? — Yes. 
 
 3909. Do you know of any women who have been 
 incapacitated owing to their work ? — No, but there are 
 a good many of the wwmen who become ill. 
 
 3910. From the complaints you have mentioned? — 
 Yes; the girls generally wear handkerchiefs over their 
 nostrils to prevent inhaling the dust. 
 
 3911. If they are not leaning over the branning 
 machine at all, is it necessary for them to wear any- 
 thing? — Yes, because the dust flies about, and if yon 
 could see the girls and the tinmen two hours after they 
 have entered the room you would find them covered 
 with dust — they are all white. Where they use soot, of 
 course, it is mixed. The proof that it is impossible to 
 prevent the inhalation of the dust lies in the fact that 
 within two hours the workpeople get covered with it, 
 and that in the best-ventilated tin houses in the trade. 
 
 3912. Is it your opinion that some of the people 
 employed in this industry might not be so much affected 
 Dy the dust as others ? — Some are able to stand it bettei: 
 than others. 
 
 3913. (Chairman.) Is it your opinion that asthma is 
 ,much more prevalent amongst the people who work in 
 these places than it is amongst other people in the 
 district ? — Yes, undoubtedly. 
 
 3914. But you have no statistics to prove that, hav»' 
 you? — I have given you cases. 
 
 3915. But illustrations do not prove it. I suppose 
 one could go to Swansea and find a lot of people not 
 employed in this industry suffering from asthma ? — Yes, 
 
 3916. Have you any comparative statistics on th» 
 subject ? — No, I have not. 
 
 3917. Do you think such statistics could be obtained ? 
 — Yes, if you asked the medical men. 
 
 Mr. C. S. Beebnee, M.D., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. C. S. 3918. (Chairman.) Are you Medical Officer of Health 
 
 Brebner, M p. for Widnes ?— Yes. 
 
 3919. How long have you held that appointment ? — 
 I have held the appointment for 15 months, but before 
 that I was Deputy Medical Officer for a short time, so 
 that I have been there a little over two years now. 
 
 3920. Have you knowledge of the conditions of work 
 in which the men are engaged in the chemical industry ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 3921. Do you consider that any particular disease is 
 specially prevalent amongst them ? — No, I cannot say 
 that I do ; taking them as a whole it is very difficult to 
 find any disease that you could put down to the condi- 
 tions of their work. 
 
 3922. They are not, in your opinion, then, apart froiT' 
 accidents, subject to any particular form of poisoning ? 
 — There are the poissibilities of lead poisoning and 
 
 arsenical poisoning, which are provided for already, but 
 apart from those things there is really very little disease 
 of the respiratory organs which may be caused. M«n 
 may get bronchitis, and so on, but it would be v«iy 
 difficult aftei-war-ds to say whether it was caused by the 
 trade or not. ' 
 
 3923. What would you say with regard to- poisoning 
 from nitrous fumes — have you come across any, cases of 
 that kind ? — No, I never have. With regard to nitrous 
 fumes in the works, I am told that they do not allow- 
 much of _ the nitrous fumes to escape, because it does 
 not do — it is such a valuable thing that they keep it as 
 much as they can. I have never come across any case 
 of poisoning by those fumes. 
 
 3924. Or from hydrochloric acid fumes ?— No. There 
 is a lot of bleaching powder, and so on, made there, but 
 I do not think the men get poisoned, or at any rate for 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 123 
 
 any length of time. A man might get what they call in 
 'the works "gassed" — that is, it might get into his 
 lungs — but it does not last, and he is not incapacitated 
 from work a long time. 
 
 3925. Have you known 
 •chloride fumes P — N«. 
 
 any cases from ammonia 
 
 3926. Or sulphur fumes ? — No. All those things come 
 Tinder the same head. Any man might say he had been 
 •" gassed," but you could not put it down to any par- 
 -ticular thing. 
 
 3927. Do you find that chemical workers to any extent 
 aire prevented from following their employment by ail- 
 ments arising from their industry ? — I do not. 
 
 3928. Have you anything to say with regard to afPec- 
 tions of the teeth ?— It is generally supposed that there 
 4are aiEections of the teeth caused, but I do not think 
 -there is very much in that. 
 
 3929. (Dr. Legge.) Are you in private practice as 
 •well ?— Yes. 
 
 3930. In your private practice do you come across 
 «hemical workers much ? — Yes, some of them. 
 
 3931. You mentioned oasies of gassing from chlorine ; 
 tave you in your experience come across any case or 
 «cases in which you believe chronic effects have been 
 produced by chlorine gas ? — No, I have not. 
 
 3932. So the gassing is really in the nature of an 
 aocident, is it? — As far as my experience goes I have 
 never found anything chronic about it, and it has been, 
 as you may say, an accident ; the effects have passed 
 off soon, and the man has been able to go back to work 
 ^ain. 
 
 3933. In your opinion, therefore, poisoning from 
 chlorine gas is not of such a nature as to be included in 
 ■the Third Schedule to the Workmen's Compeniation 
 ActP — I have not seen any oases which would lead me to 
 •dissent from that opinion. 
 
 3934. Have you heard of any cases from other medical 
 
 ii^en ? — No, I have not ; and I have had conversations j/y_ (7 5, 
 since I have been summoned here with medical practi- Brebneri w'.D. 
 
 tioners in the town who have been there 20 years, but I '—' 
 
 could not get any information from them as to any 21 Deo. 1906. 
 chronic cases occurring there. 
 
 3935. Can you say about how many men there are 
 employed in making bleaching powder in your district ? 
 — In the chemical works altogether there are between 
 4,000 and 5,000 employed, but I could not give you the 
 figure for the bleaching powder works alone. 
 
 2936. Does the manufacture 01 oleachihg piowder iotm 
 a considerable part of the trade at Widnes P — Yes. - 
 
 3937-41. Is there anything in the statistics of the dis- 
 trict which points to anything special with regard to 
 respiratory diseases as compared with the general popu- 
 lation of the kingdom ? — No, I have gone over the 
 annual reports for varioius years since the Borough 
 was incorporated in 1892, and found that up to last 
 year, when I miade my first report, the statistics had 
 been arranged in rather a peculiar way. The deaths 
 were returned at all ages from five and upwards, so 
 that it is very difficult to classify which were working 
 men and 'which were not, but the deaths from bron- 
 chitis and respiratory diseases generally do not form 
 a very great number of the total deaths. 
 
 3942. Have you oomnared them with the deaths from 
 those causes among the general population of Great 
 Britain? — ^No, it would be impossible to do that, be- 
 cause we have them, ranging from five years old and 
 upwards, so that it is very difficult to get a com- 
 parison. 
 
 3943-4. Could you compare the death rate among the : . 
 
 adult male population, say, between 25 and 45, in Widnes 
 with that amongst the adult males between those ages 
 throughout the country ? — I am afraid I could not for 
 years back ; I could only do it from 1904, which would 
 be hardly of any value. In 1905 of the deaths of persons 
 . in Widnes between 25 and 65, which numbered 156 
 from respiratory diseases, 23 were due to bronchitis. 
 
 Mr. J. A. Eatock, m.b.c.s., l.b.c.p., called and examined. 
 
 3945. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man Ln prac- 
 tice in Widnes? — Yes. 
 
 3946. Are you certifying surgeon there under the 
 Factory Acts ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3947. Have you been there for many years ? — About 
 10 years. 
 
 3945. Have you a knowledge of the complaints from 
 ■which chemical workers suffer in that town? — ^Yes. 
 
 3949. Are you of opinion that there are any diseases 
 specific to that enuployment? — I think to a certain 
 extent the respiratory troubles can be credited to the 
 character of the employment. 
 
 3950. Do you consider thiat the men employed in the 
 work are more than ordinarily liable to asthma? — 
 Yes, to bronchitis and asthma. 
 
 3951. And phthisis also? — Repeated attacks of bron- 
 chitis would lead to phthisis, I think. 
 
 3952. Have you .any statistics showing the compara- 
 tive mortality from these complaints among chemical 
 workers and other persons? — No. 
 
 ■ 3953. Why do you consider that they are specially 
 liable to these complaints of the respiratory organs ?^ 
 Because I go through chemioal works very frequently, 
 and I fiiid there are always irritating gases about which 
 have a tendency to irritate the pulmonary organs. 
 
 3954. Is there also dust albout? — Yes, in the work- 
 ing of bleaching powder there is dust, and also in the 
 grinding of minexals. 
 
 3955.. What gases are particularly noxious ? — I 
 should think in the burning of pyrites ; in the manu- 
 facture of siilphuric acid sulphur di-oxide is made, 
 which is irritating. In making bleaching powder they 
 have to use 'chlorine, which is an irritating gas. Sul- 
 phuretted hydrogen is irritating to a certain extent. 
 All those gases are used in the manufacture of the 
 different prodiicts. 
 
 3956. There is, I presume, no difference between 
 asthma and other respiratory complaints from which 
 these men suffer and similar complaints among the 
 rest of the population ?— No, I do not think one could 
 differentiate between them. 
 419 
 
 3957. You could not say if an individual were suf- 
 fering, say, from bronchitis, that it was bronchitis in 
 any special form or bronchitis which would be due 
 to this industry ? — No. 
 
 395S. Is it your opinion thsut these ordinary com- 
 plaints are more prevalent amongst this cla^s of 
 workers ? — ^Yes. 
 
 3959. Are there any complaints connected with the 
 teeth from which they suffer? — ^We find that the men 
 have very bad teeth, which, I think, is partly due to 
 their occupation and to the cloth they use to protect 
 their hands when working with a long rake. Occa- 
 sionally when they anticipate some gases coming out 
 they put the rag in their mouths, which I think does 
 affect their teeth. 
 
 3960. But the men are not incapacitated from work- 
 ing, are they? — No. 
 
 3961. And consequently, it could not be a subject 
 for the Workmen's Compensation Act, could it ? — No. 
 
 3962. Are there occasionally injuries caused to the 
 skin ?^-Yes, in the packing of bleaching powder a man 
 ordinarily protects his skin with fat, and he gets a 
 little irritation, hut it does not incapacitate him. 
 
 3963. Do you ever have any cases of men being pre- 
 vented from working by troubles of the skin? — No, 
 they are of a temporary character, and in the same way 
 with "gassing." If a man is badly "gassed" he is 
 usually killed, but if he is not badly " gassed " it is a 
 matter of a few hours only. 
 
 3964. It is, of course, an accident if he is killed, is 
 it not ? — Yes. 
 
 3965. (Professor Allbutt.) Your evidence is not 
 founded, is it, on any definite statistics ? — ^No. 
 
 3966. Are your impressions strong impressions ? — • 
 Yes, because I go throxigh the • works regularly in 
 Widnes and Garston. 
 
 3967. Under what conditions, speaking generally, 
 are these workers engaged ; for example, a person who 
 is employed indoors, or even out of doors, might so far 
 be under favourable conditions as regards heajth, but 
 a person engaged in works of this kind, pervaded by 
 
 0,2 
 
 Mr. J. A. 
 Eatock, 
 M.R.C.S., 
 I.,R.C.P. 
 
124 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. A. draughts and changes of temperature, would be more 
 Eatock, liable to disease, would he not? — ^Yes, I think so. 
 
 L.R.C.P.' 3968. Well are there any such conditions as these, 
 ' ' do you think, to be considered ? — Yes, but the works on 
 21 Dec. 1906. the whole are very well ventilated, though the men 
 have sometimes very hot furnaces to attend to. 
 
 3969. You think the atmospheric conditions under 
 which they work are prejudicial ? — The atmospheric 
 conditions, barring the presence of gases, are, I think, 
 very good. 
 
 3970. Do they have to pass from hot to cold places ? 
 — ^Yes, they have to do fliat at times, but the worst 
 I can say a'bout the chemical trade is that it is a very 
 unpleasant and laborious trade ; otherwise, barring 
 what you might term accidents and tro'Uible with dust 
 and occasionally getting lead poisoning, my impression 
 is that it is a healthy trade. 
 
 3971. Do you think these diseases fall rather under 
 the head of pneumonia or bronchitis? — ^Yes, but you 
 could not say that that bronchitis was due to the 
 employment, ibecause you could not distinguish it from 
 bronchitis due to- a cbill caught by a. man engaged in 
 any ordinary trade. 
 
 3972. (Br. Legge.) Do you find that these chemiial 
 workers at the age, say, of 45, suffer from chronic 
 bronchitis and asthma ? — No, I cannot say that I da 
 
 3973. iSo that the effect of the inhalation of these- 
 gases is not cumulative in the sense that taking 
 silicious dust into the lungs is cumulative in gradu- 
 ally producing fibrosis ? — No, I cannot say that I find 
 it so, except that, of course, when a man is " gassed "■ 
 he is troubled occasionally with bronchitis, but then h& 
 gets all right again. 
 
 3974. Are there many chemical workers at work over 
 45 years of age? — Yes, I should say so, judging from 
 going through the works. 
 
 3975. Do you know of any chronio effect produced 
 by the inhalation of chlorine gas — No. 
 
 3976. Or of sulphuretted hydrogen? — No. 
 
 3977. Or of sulphurous acid gas ? — ^No, I know of no 
 chronic effects. 
 
 3978. Do you find that the employment of young 
 persons is followed by any temporary ill effects lasting 
 for more than a week ? — iNo ; the young persons are not 
 employed about the worst part of the works, where 
 they bum the ore and so on. 
 
 Mr. J. J. BucHAN, M.D., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. J. 3979. (Chairman.) Are you Medical Officer of Health 
 
 Jiuthan, m d. f^^ ^he Borough of St. Helens ?— I am. 
 
 3980. Are you in private practice there also ? — ^No, I 
 am not. 
 
 3981. Have you been there for some years? — I have 
 been there for two and a half years. 
 
 3982. Are there a large number of men engaged in 
 the chemical industry in that town? — Yes, we have 
 constantly over a thousand, but it is rather difficult to 
 estimate them. At the last census the number was 
 1,100. 
 
 3983. Do you consider that those workers suffer from 
 any specific trade diseases ? — I consider the occupation 
 is a healthy one. I am acquainted with the processes 
 carried on in the manufacture of chemicals, and I am 
 of opinion that an average healthy workman may be 
 employed without injury to his health at any of the 
 works. 
 
 3984. Have you some statistics which you can put in 
 showing the comparative mortality, and so forth, 
 amongst workers engaged in this industry and workers 
 engaged in other industries in the same town ? — Yes. I 
 examined the causes of death among the workers in St. 
 Helens from the year 1901 to the present time, prac- 
 tically six years. Of those deaths there were 121 
 among alkali workers, and 1,175 among workers in 
 three other branches of industry in the same social 
 position as alkali workers, glass workers, general 
 labourers, and miners. The other industries of 
 St. Helens are glass-making and coal-mining, so 
 that I practically included all the working men 
 of St. Helens in my examination into the causes 
 of death. I found the average age of death of the 
 chemical workers was 54 years ; the average age of 
 death of_the general labourers was 49 years, and the 
 average age of death of glass workers and miners was 
 49 years. It happened to work out that in each of the 
 latter three cases it was 49 years. Now 54 years is a 
 very good average indeed for the age at death of work- 
 ing men, so that the figures do not indicate at all that 
 it is a specially dangerous trade. The diseases from 
 which these chemical workers died were as follows : — 
 From diseases of the heart and blood vessels, 15, and 
 the average age at death was 52 years ; from diseases 
 of the lungs the number of deaths was 49, and the 
 average ago at death was 57 years ; from diseases of the 
 kidneys the number of deaths was four, and the average 
 age at death was 50 years ; from diseases of the nervous 
 system the number of deaths was 10, and the average 
 a.afi at death was 52 years ; from alimentary diseases 
 the number of deaths was two, and the average age at 
 death was 50 years ; from diseases of the skin there 
 was one death only, the age being 63 years ; 
 from infectious diseases the number of deaths was 
 four, and the average age at death was 47^ years : 
 from phthisis and tubercular diseases the number of 
 deaths was 10, and the average age at death was 40 
 y?ars ; from cancer and malignant disease the number 
 of deaths was four, and the average age at death was 
 
 57i years ; from violence— that is to say, fromi 
 accidents at works — the number of deaths was two, 
 and the average age at death was 363 years ; from 
 accidents not at works the number of deatlis was five, 
 and the average age at death was 49g years ; from old 
 age the number of deaths was eight, and the average 
 age at death was 67 years ; from other causes tn» 
 number of deaths was six, and the average age at death 
 was 58 years. 
 
 3985. Is it your general conclusion that it is not an 
 unhealthy trade, and that there are no specinc trade 
 diseases connected with it ? — My general opinion is that 
 it is far from an unhealthy trade — indeed, I should * 
 think it is the most healthy trade we have in St, 
 Helens. 
 
 , 3986. Leaving averages and coming to individual 
 cases, do you ever find men employed in the chemical ! 
 industry who are suffering from complaints or diseases- 
 which you would be inclined to attribute to their work? 
 — Yes, you do find such men, but you cannot go any 
 further than the fact that you are inclined to attribute 
 their diseases to the work. You find cases of chronic 
 bronchitis amongst chemical workers as you do amongst 
 the general population, and the fact that these men 
 have been intermittently exposed to some irritant 
 fumes makes you incline to attribute their illness to- 
 that cause, but in my opinion you cannot go any 
 further than the inclination to attribute it to that 
 cause. 
 
 3987. If a man came to you and you did not 
 know what trade he was employed in and you 
 diagnosed the symptoms he showed, would you be abl» 
 to say that the man was evidently suffering from a com- 
 plaint which he must have acquired as a chemical 
 worker? — No, you coiild not possibly say that; you 
 could not possibly diagnose his work. 
 
 3988. Might he have been a tramcar driver for all 
 you could tell from his symptoms? — Yes, he might 
 have been anything. Pneumonia and bronchitis are so 
 exceedingly common to all classes and there is nothing' 
 peculiar about it amongst chemical workers. 
 
 3989. Have you come across any cases of men who ' 
 have been exposed to sulphuretted hydrogen gas 
 having suffered thereby ? — Yes, but they are extremely 
 rare now. Sulphuretted hydrogen gas is generated in 
 the sulphur recovery process. I understand they did 
 not know so much about it some time ago as they do 
 now, and there is now practically no escape of sul- 
 phuretted hydrogen gas. In former times men werff 
 
 " gassed " through working with sulphuretted hydrogen 
 gas, but they are not now. 
 
 3990. When you say they were "gassed," do you 
 at'ribute that gassing to some defect in the appa.ratu8 
 they were using and the consequent sudden fuming 01 
 the gas ? — Yes, some escape of sulphuretted hydrogen 
 from the apparatus. 
 
 3991. And that would be in the nature of an accident 
 and not in the nature of a disease ? — That is so. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 125 
 
 3992. In the manufacture of sulphuric acid is there 
 any complaint or disease arising apart from accident ? 
 — In the manufacture of sulphuric acid the only part 
 of the process which can be considered dangerous to 
 health is the tending of the furnaces where the iron 
 pyrites is hurned. The man at those furnaces is put- 
 ting in pyrites and is liable to occasional whiffs of the 
 SO2 gas, but it is very occasional. I have seen those 
 workers frequently and spoken to them, and I find it 
 is very rare indeed that there is any back draught. 
 
 3993. When it does occur, what are the effects on the 
 man? — It would act as an irritant and cause him to 
 cough. 
 
 3994. Would it incapacitate him from working? — ■ 
 Noj he is not nearly so liable as a sanitary inspector 
 in the pursuit of his ordinary duties, to suffer from the 
 effects of SO2 gas. 
 
 3995. Do you find any chronic bronchitis amongst 
 these men ? — I have noticed no exceptional incidence 
 amongst them ; I have t[uestioned them particularly 
 as to the condition of their lungs, and I fold that many 
 of them have been for years at the work without suffer- 
 ing from any respiratory disease. In the manufacture 
 of salt cake the'-e is a liability to exposure to hydro- 
 chloric acid gas. Before the passing of the Alkali 
 Works Regulation Act, there was, I believe, consider- 
 able danger, but at present all works have to condense 
 95 per cent, of the hydrochloric acid. 
 
 3996. Would the fumes arising from that gas cause 
 sudden poisoning or gradual poisoning? — They would 
 cause sudden illness from which the patient would 
 recover. I have never found, and I have never seen, 
 any evidence to show that there is chronic poisoning 
 from these gases, and they do not set up fibrosis of the 
 lungs. Then in the manufacture of bleaching powders 
 great advances have been made. Under the old pro- 
 cess a man had to go into a chamber and put on a 
 muzzle and things of that sort, because he was par- 
 ticularly exposed to the effects of chlorine gas. 
 
 3997. If a man fell down in the course of his work 
 and had to be taken out, that would be accident and 
 not disease, would it not ? — Quite so. 
 
 3998. And you do not, I understand, find any disease 
 arising from the occupation ? — ^No. At present bleach- 
 ing powder operations are carried on entirely under 
 cover, and the workers are not exposed to chlorine 
 gas. In the manufacture of chlorate of potash, I do not 
 know of any diseases arising. Chlorate of potash is 
 sometimes ground, and in the grinding there is liability 
 to dust, and that dust might possibly give rise to fibrosis 
 of the lungs, but there is no evidence at St. Helens, 
 and I have carefully inquired into the matter, that 
 such has been the case. In same of the processes oi 
 the manufacture of bleaching powder, you sometimes 
 get a dusty atmosphere which might possibly set up 
 fibrosis of the lungs, but there is no evidence to prove 
 it. In the manufacture of copper and copper sulphate 
 there is no evidence that it gives risei to any disease 
 among the workers. With regard to arsenious acid 
 I cannot say much, as we have only one man at St. 
 Helens working at it ; it was only started about four 
 months ago. 
 
 3999. Are there any specific diseases common to 
 workers in alkali works? — I am taking alkali works 
 and chemical works to be the same. 
 
 4000. Are there not chemical works in St. Helens 
 which are not alkali works ? — I do not know that there 
 are. 
 
 4001. Are they all alkali works ? — Alkali works is 
 the common name for them all in St. Helens. 
 
 4002. (Professor Allhutt.) Can you give the Commit- Mr. J. J. 
 tee, to illustrate your averages, the extreme cases? — Buchan, m.d. 
 
 Yes, I will furnish particulars of actual cases, with 
 
 names and everything. ^'^ Dec. 1906. 
 
 4003. (Dr. Legge.) Are there any other effects pro- 
 duced from potassium chlorate than those you have 
 mentioned ? — Yes, you may find chronic ansemia. 
 
 4004. Have you any evidence of that ? — No ; I 
 inquired particularly amongst the workers, but could 
 not find it. 
 
 4005. If there was chronic ansemia would it be recog- 
 nisable as ansemia due to the occupation? — Yes, you 
 would get medical evidence in such cases proving that 
 it was due to the occupation. 
 
 4006. Can you say how many men are engaged in 
 the manuffliCtur© of potassium chlorate ? — I cannot say. 
 It is only in the grinding that a dust is created which 
 ecsposes the worker to the effects of potassium chlorate. 
 There would not be more than half a dozen men em- 
 ployed at gi'inding. 
 
 4007. Is potassium chlorate made anywhere else 
 than in St. Helens? — I could not say. 
 
 4008. With regard to the lime dust which is given 
 off in certain processes, has it occurred to you that it 
 is subject to a certain kind of slaking process after 
 inhalation ? — ^It is slightly slaked before being wrought 
 in order to keep it as little dusty as possible. 
 
 4009. That would create a chemical change giving 
 rise to heat, would it not? — Yes. 
 
 4010. Has it occurred to you that injury to the 
 lungs might be caused in that way? — It has occurred 
 to me that the process might cause injury to the 
 lungs. The workers who supply the lime to this 
 apparatus wear muzzles over the mouth in order to 
 prevent particles of lime getting into the lungs ; it has 
 been found impossible to get a man tO' wear a muzzle 
 over his mouth and nose as well, and the worker 
 inspires by his mouth and expires by the nose. 
 
 4011. Have you any evidence to show that the in- 
 halation of the lime itself is injurious ? — Xo ; men 
 have been working in it for several years, but find no 
 inconvenience whatever. 
 
 4012. Has your notice been called to any cases of": 
 cataract among the glass workers ? — No, it has not. 
 That, of course, is a different question, and I have not . 
 prepared any evidence on the subject. 
 
 4013. If catara.ct among glass workers was a preva^ 
 lent disease, you would have heard of it, I suppose? — 
 Yes, but it is not a, prevalent disease so far as my 
 knowledge goes, because in the eye department of the 
 hospital cataract is not at all frequent. 
 
 4014. Do you know the interiors of the glass 
 factories ? — I know the interiors of some of them. 
 
 4015. Is bottle-making a large local industry ? — Yes. 
 
 4016. What is the name of the principal firm of 
 bottle makers in your town? — There are two — Nuttall 
 and Co., and Canaington, Shaw and Co. The glass firm 
 is Pilkington Bros.' 
 
 4017. Have they any medical man specially in 
 charge of their sick club or their employees ? — Yes. 
 
 4018. Do you know who he is ? — Dr. Siddall is in 
 charge of the big works, and devotes his time wholly 
 to the glass workers. Dr. Jackson is also connected 
 with one of the other works. 
 
 4019. (Chairman.) Will you ascertain whether there 
 has been any disease prevalent among bottle makers 
 in your district, and let the Committee know? — Yes, 
 I will look into it. 
 
 Mr. John Langton', F.a.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 4020. (Chairman.) Have you had experience for a 
 number of years in connection with the City of London 
 Truss Society in regard to cases of hernia ? — Yes, for 
 43 years. 
 
 4021. Can you tell the Committee whether hernia 
 amongst working men is a disease usually caused by 
 accident — that is to say, by some sudden definite 
 cause, or whether it is caused gradually by the 
 employment in which they are engaged? — That is a 
 very difficult question to answer. Of course, one sees 
 all sorts of cases at all stages of life, and under all 
 conditions. I have prepared some statistics which I 
 
 thought perhaps might be useful showing the times at 
 
 which hernia occurs in the different quinquennial ■'W''- J- 
 
 periods of life. Are you assuming that hernia is caused Langton, 
 
 by accident? F.E.C.S, 
 
 4022. No ; I am asking you whether, as a rule, the " 
 
 cases of hernia you have had under your notice 
 amongst working men could be said to be due to acci- 
 dent or have been gradually caused by the particular 
 employment. For instance, would the injury happen at 
 a particular moment, or would it be caused at a given 
 moment? — No. I have made inquiries, by my col- 
 league, the late Mr. Kingdon, and myself in about 2,000 
 
126 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. cases, and I find that out of the whole number only 82 
 Langton, ascribed their hernia to accident. 
 
 F.R.c.s. 4023. To what cause or causes can it be chiefly 
 
 21 Dec 1906 "■scribed ? — It is pai-tly inherited — partly owing to ill- 
 
 L__ ' ness, but mostly ascribed to coughing in the first 
 
 instance. 
 
 4024. Would it be caused by a muscular strain ? — Not 
 if the intestines and the abdominal viscera and walls 
 are normal. 
 
 4025. If they are not normal might it be caused b^ 
 muscular strain? — Yes, I think it might, but it woul'j 
 take many weeks, and probably months, tO' cause a 
 hernia which would be recognised by the patient. 
 
 4026. I have a case in my mind before a court of law 
 in which a man claimed compensation for an accident 
 because he had ruptured himself in turning tie handle 
 of a machine which had got stuck — do you think that 
 such a case as that is frequent ? — No I think that was 
 the way in which he found it out. The hernia already 
 existed at the time he thought he was ruptured, and 
 had probably existed months without his knowledge. 
 
 4027. If that particular machine had not stuck in 
 the way it did, or if the man had not been working at 
 it, might he have gone on for a long period without 
 feeling any discomfort ? — Yes, but he would probably 
 have abdominal trouble which he would refer to the 
 hernia. 
 
 4028. For years, perhaps ? — Yes. I hold strongly 
 that it is not the outcome of hard work, and that 95 
 out of every 100 oases exist before the patients 
 find it out, and that some cough or strain or blow 
 brings the hernia down a little further, and then they 
 for the fij'st time become aware of its existence ; then 
 they ascribe to accident or other injury as the cause of 
 the rupture. 
 
 4029. Is it easy to determine the origin of most 
 'Cases? — I think it is. The intestines are supported by 
 a suspensory ligament which under many condi- 
 tions of ill-health becomes elongated ; that allows, the 
 intestines to fall and come within the grip of certain 
 muscles which will cause further extension. In health 
 all the abdominal muscles help to support the intestines, 
 the liver and the other solid organs ; but directly these 
 muscles fail a little the abdominal viscera com© within . 
 the action of the same muscles, but in a downward or 
 reverse direction. 
 
 4030. Is the elongation of the ligament ever caused 
 by the conditions of employment ? — I do not think so, 
 for the normal aotion of these muscles ie to support the 
 viscera. 
 
 4031. Is it a defect in the internal apparatus which 
 might be found in anybody? — Yes, and when this 
 •defect is dependent upon an arrest of development in 
 the child the hernia is called " congenital." 
 
 4032. If a railway porter is ruptured, and ascribes 
 the cause of the rupture to lifting some heavy luggage 
 on a particular day, as a matter of fact might it have 
 
 ■developed just the same if he had had a cough? — Yes ; 
 I have no doubt about that. 
 
 4033. Is it a popular erro'r to suppose that rupture is 
 merely caused by muscular strain ? — The term rupture 
 is a misnomer throughout; there is no rupture; there 
 is no breakage of any sort ; the protrusion is due to a 
 
 ■gradual downward inclination of the intestines into a 
 sac. 
 
 4034. In your opinion, therefore, is it to be con- 
 sidered in any sense as an injury arising from an indus- 
 trial occupation ? — No ; I think that peers and members 
 of the House of Commons are just as liable to it as 
 workmen are, only that owing to their easier mode of 
 life the necessity for wearing mechanical support is not 
 so obligatory. 
 
 4035. If a man is ruptured, can he continue his work 
 if he is provided with a proper truss? — ^He can, in the 
 large majority of oases, if he wears a truss. 
 
 4036. Do you think men may be prevented from 
 following their employment by rupture? — I do if it is 
 not properly treated. If they do not wear a truss or are 
 not operated upon for a ra^dical cure they are not so 
 competent to do work, but nevertheless hundreds and 
 thousands go about their work daily in London not 
 knowing that they are ruptured and yet do a fair day's 
 work. 
 
 4037. If they do know they are ruptured and are 
 properly treated or operated upon, can they continue 
 their employment in all cases ? — They are not incapaci- 
 
 tated from work if they wear a truss, except of course 
 if the rupture is so bad that a truss will not retain it. 
 
 4038. Have you come across any cases of working men 
 being plunged into destitution by being thrown out of 
 employment in consequence of the rupture? — How large 
 am I -to assume the rupture to be ? Is it to be a big.or 
 a small one ? If it is a small hernia it does not in- 
 capacitate a man from working provided he wears a 
 truss, but if it ie what is called a scrotal hernia his 
 capacity for work may be seriously limited, as these 
 ruptures are difficult to retain by a truss. 
 
 4039. {Br. Legge.) Is not rupture a frequent cause 
 of rejection of recruits for the Army ? — It would be a 
 certain cause of rejection. 
 
 4040. Why is that ? — Because if the hernia comes 
 down they are not eligible for employment in the Civil 
 Service or the Army or Navy. 
 
 4041. But if it is a slight hernia, and can perfectly 
 woll be retained by the wearing of a truss, why should 
 i fc lead to rejection ? — I do iiot know. Until quite re- 
 cently -the Army and Navy authorities rejected candi- 
 dates who were the subjects of varicocele, until the 
 Council of the College of Surgeons advised the Director 
 General of the Army that they considered this disease 
 ought not to incapacitate for service. 
 
 4042. Oan a similar line be taken with regard to 
 hernia ? — Yes, it might, but it ought not, for hernia is 
 dangerous to life under the varying conditions of their 
 arduous life, for there is more danger attaching -to a 
 rupture, because with straining or coughing, or not 
 having the truss in the right place, it might develop 
 serious conditions. 
 
 4043. The fact that a man had a rupture would enable 
 him to malinger, would it not ? — It might, and I think 
 would. 
 
 4044. Is that one of the reasons, do you think, which 
 has made the Examining Board adopt the rule with 
 regard to men who are rupt m-ed ? — I do not know. I 
 may say that over 25 per cent, of the ruptured male 
 population occur under the age of -ten years. 
 
 4045. (Chairman.) That conclusively shows that it is 
 not an industrial disease, does it not ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 4046. Are you in a position to give the Committee ? 
 some information on the subject of housemaid's knee ?— 
 Yes. One has a large experience of it in hospitals^ IP 
 was surgeon to St. Bartholomew's Hospital for 40 years, 
 and this disease came under my notice repeatedly. 
 
 4047. Is the complaint specially one which applies to 
 housemaids ? — Yes, nearly always. 
 
 4048. Were the great majority of the patients who 
 were suffering from it employed in domestic service?— 
 Yes, they were mainly caretakers or housemai<is,''?r 
 general servants. There is also- a bursa on the elbow 
 which is called the miner's bursa, and there is one on 
 the inside of the knee which is called the rider's bursa. 
 There is also one on the buttock which is known as the 
 weaver's bursa, but they .ire all owing to injury or 
 disease. 
 
 4049. Is the housemaid's complaint especially the one 
 on the knee ? — Yes. 
 
 4050. "Housemaid's knee" obviously would not cover 
 other injuries, would it ? — No, but all these bursse are 
 the outcome of intermittent pressure. 
 
 4051. Do they incapacitate from work p^-Numbers go 
 about doing their work with them ; they are only in- ' 
 capacitated when they become inflamed and suppurate, 
 
 4052. Does that occasionally happen? — It not infre- 
 quently happens. 
 
 4053. Do you think housemaid's knee is caused by 
 the employment ia which they are engaged ?— Yes, I 
 should say in a large majority of cases. They do not 
 get this disease in France, because they clean with their 
 feet or with brooms. A very celebrated surgeon from 
 Prance was shown a case, and he did not know what it 
 was ; they never see it there. 
 
 4054. For how long a period might a person be in- 
 capacitated in a bad case ? — Until it is removed. They 
 sometimes get so big, or interfere with the patient's 
 work so much, that they have to be removed. 
 
 4055. Do you ever have cases of permanent inc^w- 
 city ? — No, I have never seen one which could nO't be 
 cured, and some are so trivial that practically speaking 
 they require no treatment. 
 
 4056. Do the other bunsse of which you sp6l« 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 127 
 
 especially occur in particular employments P — Yes; the 
 one on the elbow is called the miner's bursa. 
 
 4057. Is it the same thing as the miner's beat hand 
 and beat knee ? — No, it is due to working the coal or 
 other mineral while reading on their elbows. 
 
 4058. To what trade does the on© on the buttock 
 apply ? — To weavers ; it is sometimes called th© weaver's 
 bottom. 
 
 4059. Does that incapacitate from work?- — No, be- 
 cause it becomes so thick that they can go on with very 
 little inconvenience. 
 
 4060. Do they never loise their employment, or are 
 prevented from working for a time? — Sometimes, if 
 inflamed, but it is comparatively rare. The Spital- 
 fields hand weavers used to have it a great deal, but the 
 trade has gone, practically speaking, and consequently 
 this disease is now rarely seen. 
 
 4061. Have you any idea how prevalent housemaid's 
 knee is among domestic servants ? — No ; they nearly 
 always go to hospital, and if the knee is only slightly 
 enlarged with a little fluid, it is let out and they get 
 temporarily well. Some do not seek further advice, 
 but others go from hospital to hospital, so that really 
 one cannot tell what the percentage is. 
 
 4062. Would you say it was a very prevalent com- 
 plaint ? — Yes. 
 
 4063. Do you think servants ever lose their employ- 
 ment through it ? — Yes, I think so occasionally. 
 
 4064. So that it might be a proper subject, might it, 
 for compensation under the Act? — It is the oiitcome 
 certainly of employment necessitating the use of the 
 knee or the elbow. 
 
 4065. (Vr. Legge.) Is there any generic term which 
 one could apply to this form of disease which would 
 enable us to deal with it in a group? — I hardly know. 
 The disease may give no trouble for months or years, 
 but it suddenly becomes inflamed, but what the cause 
 
 of the inflammation and suppuration may be is diffi- 
 cult to say. In many cases I think it is caused by some 
 septic material in kneeling which attacks the weak 
 part. 
 
 4066. It would be always necessary to use the word 
 "inflamed," would it not, for the purpose of descrip- 
 tion? — No; but in the majority of cases it would be. 
 If a bursa becomes big or painful patients cannot kneel 
 until something is done to remove it. 
 
 4067. If it is not in an inflamed condition? — Yes, 
 we very commonly remove them when they are not in 
 an inflamed condition, because their removal gets rid 
 of the disease and its disability. 
 
 .4068. Do you get these cases as in-patients in the 
 hospital ? — Yes. 
 
 4069. For how long a time 1 — It depends — from four 
 to sis weeks. 
 
 4070. Do they recur after once being removed ? — The 
 same one cannot, but there are many bursse about the 
 knee-joint, and some of these may become affected 
 later on in life. 
 
 4071. As a rule is it a permanent cure if one is 
 removed ? — I should say if I operated on a girl and 
 removed the bursa she would be perfectly cured. 
 
 4072. (Chairman.) Can the complaint be diagnosed 
 with , certainty ? — Yes, by a person who knows anatomy 
 and surgery, but I have seen a housemaid's knee 
 treated as fluid in the knee-joint. 
 
 4073. Could ihxid on the knee-joint be mistaken for 
 housemaid's Knee s — I have seen it. 
 
 4074. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you think by using 
 housemaid's mats th© disease could be lessened ? — I 
 think so. 
 
 4075. (Chairman.) Has this complaint any name of 
 greater dignity than housemaid's knee ? — Yes ; the 
 prepatella bursa. 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Langton, 
 
 F.R.C.S. 
 
 21 Dec. 1906. 
 
 Mr. H. Montague Muehat, h.d., called and examined. 
 
 4076. (Chairman.) Are you. a dootor in practice in 
 London? — Yes. I am senior physician at Charing 
 Cross Hospital. 
 
 4077. Are you able to give the Committee some in- 
 formation on the subject of filbrosis of the lungs pro- 
 duced by asbestos dust ? — I have had experience of one 
 case, which I had under observation for fourteen 
 months. 
 
 ■ 4078. Is your evidence limited to that case ?— ;■! am 
 afraid so, because at the time it occurred, which is 
 seven years ago, I looked for statistics, but could find 
 none, and since then I have not come across another 
 case. 
 
 4079. Have you heard from any quarter that the 
 disease is prevalent among those employed in_ thb 
 work?— One hears, generally speaking, that consider- 
 able trouble is now taken to prevent the inhalation of 
 the dust, so that the disease is not so likely to occur as 
 heretofore. 
 
 4080. Do you think it still may occur? — If there is 
 dust, certainly. 
 
 4081. Have you any doubt in your mind that asbestos 
 dust does cause fibrosis? — I think there is no doubt 
 it did in this one case. 
 
 4082. Can you tell the Committee the particulars 
 of that case? — The patient was a man 33. years 
 of age. He had been at work some 14 years, 
 the first ten of 'which he was in what was called 
 the carding room, which he said was the most risky 
 part of the work. He volunteered the statement that 
 of the 10 people who were working in the room when he 
 went into it he was the only survivor. I have no 
 evidence except his word for that. He said they all 
 died somewhere about 30 years of age. After he had 
 been there 10 years he was piit into another room, where 
 there was much less dust. During the latter part of 
 the 10 years he had had two aittaoks of what were 
 diagnosed as bronchitis, which incapacitated him for 
 a few weeks. In 1899, after he had been at work some 
 13 or 14 years he was sent to me, and I found he had 
 marked pulmonary fibrosis, which was more like 
 potter's asthma than anything else I had seen. 
 
 4083. What was the outcome of it ? — He improved, m a lU 
 He was ill for a month before he came to the hospital, J^'''- ■"• •'"• 
 bm after being there two months he went back to his -''^" "'"y. M . D. 
 work. That was in the spring of 1899. He worked for 
 
 some months, then became ill again, and was re- 
 admitted to the hospital in April, 1900, where he died. 
 
 4084. Was. your diagnosis verified by a post-mortem 
 examination ? — Yes. 
 
 4085. Were there any tuberculous symptoms ? — No ; 
 there wers enlarged glands in his neck, but they were 
 not tuberculous. 
 
 4086. If, after his first attack he had not gone back 
 to his work, do you think he would have survived ? — 
 That I can hardly say, because his first attack of so- 
 called bronchitis was some years before I saw him. 
 The disease was so far advanced when I first saw him 
 that it was simply a matter of time. 
 
 4087. (Prof essor Allbutt.) Will you describe what you 
 found on examination of the lungs ? — They were ex- 
 tremely tough and fibrous, especially the lower parts. 
 
 4088. What was their colour? — In parts a greyish* 
 black. 
 
 4089. Were there large and visible strands of fibre-! 
 traversing the lung, or was it a finer fibrosis pene- 
 trating in all directions ? — In the lower part the change- 
 was uniform, about the centre the grey areas were 
 intermingled with reddish areas containing some air. 
 In the upper part there was comparatively little 
 change except increased toughness. 
 
 4090. Was there much pleuritic adhesion ? — Yes. 
 
 4090*. Did you go further into any minute examina.- 
 tion by microSiOope or otherwise? — Yes. I have here 
 some phoitographs which were taken under Dr. Legge's 
 direction from specimens prepared for me by "Dr. 
 Bosanquet. 
 
 4091. (Dr. Legge.) Can you tell the Committee what 
 asbestos is ? — It consists chiefly of magnesium and 
 silica with some iron and lime. 
 
 4092. (Professor Allbutt. ) Are these spicules spicules 
 of asbestos ? — Yes. 
 
128 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. S. M. 
 
 Murray, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 21 Dec. 1906. 
 
 4093. Was there much dilatation of the bronchial 
 ta'bes? — Not much. 
 
 4094. Might asbestos be found in the sputa?— Yes ; 
 we examined the sputa and found definite dust, but 
 could not definitely distinguish it from other dust of 
 similar character. 
 
 4095. Were there no chemical means of distingiuish- 
 ing it ? — No, because in ganister disease there might be 
 as much silica in the lungs. Portions of the lungs 
 were analysed afterwards, but the analysis did not give 
 any further assistance. 
 
 4096. There would be then no handy method at the 
 service of a medical referee, would there, of deciding 
 by the sputa whether a person was suffering from 
 asbestos fibrosis or not ? — I doubt it ; I never heard of 
 any. 
 
 4097. From your experience in that particular case, 
 do you think by examination of the sputa you could 
 distinguish another case if you came across one ? — No ; 
 one could give a probable diagnosis, but could not be 
 definitely certain the disease was not due to some other 
 form of siliceous dust. 
 
 4098. We have been told that there is something 
 characteristic in the earlier stages of dust-phthisis in 
 the predominance of shortness of breath before physical 
 signs become very obvious ; was that the case here ? — 
 
 Yes. When this man first came to the hospital he onlj 
 complained of shortness of breath. His pulse was 63, 
 and his respirations were 33. 
 
 4099. So that it is in accordance with your experi- 
 ence that there is something characteristic about the 
 far greater incapacitation of the patient than the com- 
 paratively few physical signs would account for ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4100. Does your case illustrate this general rule J— 
 Yes. 
 
 4101. (Dr. Legge.) Was the sputum examined for the 
 presence of tubercle bacilli or not? — Yes. None were 
 found. 
 
 4102. Did the condition of the lungs on the post- 
 mortem examination suggest any tubercular cavities P— 
 No. 
 
 4103. In your experience at Charing Cross Hospital 
 have you come across cases arising from any other dusty 
 
 occupations which showed symptoms similar to these? 
 
 Not precisely the same ; I saw two or three cases some 
 years ago arising from brass dust, in which there were 
 much ^e same symptoms, but the disease ran an 
 acuter course. 
 
 4104. Speaking generally, fibroid phthisis, such as 
 this, is not often seen in London hospitals, is it? — 
 That is so. 
 
 FOURTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Monday, I4:th January 1907. 
 
 MEMBEES PRESENT : 
 
 -Mr. Henet Citxtnghame, c.b. (in the Chair). 
 -Professor Cliffoed Allbtttt, t.e.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettant (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Samuel Poole, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr S Poole 4105. (Chairman.) Are you a medical practitioner 
 M.D. ' practising in Wolverhampton and its vicinity ? — Yes. 
 
 4106. What part of the town do you practise in 
 
 14 Jan. 1907. chiefly ? — Pretty well all over the town, but I should 
 think the tendency is more towards the east side and 
 south side of the town than perhaps elsewhere. 
 
 4107. Are you officially connected vrith any of the 
 workmen's clubs, unions, or other organisations ? — 
 No, only the Chillington dub, a little club in connec- 
 tion with the works, which I take because it is policy to 
 do so. The Chillington Works — ^the edge tool people — 
 I took for the reason that l wished to get instruction 
 in this disease by greater p.xperience. 
 
 4108. Is that club a men's club or an employers' club ? 
 — A men's club. 
 
 4109. It is not subsidised by the employers in any 
 •way, is it; it is not a shop club, is it, in the sense that 
 everybody is compelled to join who joins the works ? — • 
 No, it is simply a voluntary club, and consists of the 
 men who^ work at that particular kind of work, because 
 there are a great number of workmen in those works. 
 
 4110. What particular kind of work ? — Grinding and 
 polishing. It does not include the men who do forging. 
 
 4111. Is your practice connected chiefly with the men, 
 or is it a general family practice? — It is a general 
 practice. 
 
 4112. In the course of it do you come across a good 
 many workmen who are ill from one cause or another ? 
 — Yes. I have charge of the district under the Poor 
 Law, which includes that area on the east side of the 
 town as well. 
 
 4113. With regard to the general health of Wolver- 
 hampton, would you say it is a healthy place or not ? — 
 Taking the town generally, it is a healthy town. 
 
 4114. With regard to lung disease found amongst 
 
 metal polishers and grinders, is it only one metal or all 
 the metals which are polished ? — Steel or iron — I do not 
 mean brass. 
 
 4115. In grinding I suppose there are a great many 
 different kinds of processes. Have you been into the 
 factories at all ? — Yes. 
 
 4116. Are there a good many different sorts of grind- 
 ing apparatus ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4117. I suppose you may have what one might call 
 moist grinding, where a little water is used ; and I 
 presume there is also what one might term the com- 
 plete wet grinding, where you have a regular stream of 
 water pouring over the work? Have you seen that 
 latter kind of grinding ? — I cannot say that I have. 
 
 4118. That would probably be quite safe, would it 
 not, as far as dust is concerned ?— Yes. In the wet 
 grinding I have seen there has been certainly a large 
 amount of water, but whether the water came from 
 the trough that the stone was running in or not I do 
 not know. 
 
 4119. There is, at all events, some grinding so wet 
 that it would be inconceivable that dust could get into 
 the air from it at all, is there not ?— I should not say 
 so. I think in the very wettest grinding it is likely to 
 fly with the water, because it increases the weight of 
 the paiTticles which may fly off at a tangent. I do not 
 think you could see the splashing, but it takes place. 
 If a stone is revolving at a great speed in water there 
 must be water flowing off at a tangent, and if there are 
 any particles in that water it must carry them off. 
 
 4120. But you do not see any wet or dust on the 
 troughs or places round about, do you ? — No, perhaps 
 not. 
 
 4121. If there is no dust to be found and no wet to 
 be found, and you cannot feel any or see any, you are 
 warranted, are you not, in concluding that the process 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 129 
 
 o£ wet grinding is very much less dangerous than that 
 of dry grindiug ? — Quit* so. 
 
 4122. There are emery wheels as well as stone wheels 
 of different kinds used, are thei-e not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4123. What is the method of polishing which you have 
 generally seen here ?— I have seen polishing done for 
 flat irons, especially with moist stones. 
 
 4124. Do you call that polishing? — Yes, that is the 
 polishing they do. 
 
 4125. What I meant was polishing with powders of 
 different kinds — do you mean that kind of polishing ? — 
 Yes ; they polish smoothing irons with dry stones, but 
 of course it is all grinding. 
 
 4126. What polishing is there, to your knowledge, 
 carried on with bobsi" — That is done at the bicycle 
 works a great deal. 
 
 4127. Do yon mean polishing with calico bobs and 
 leather straps? — Yes. I do' not quite know what the 
 straps are made of, but they use^ straps. 
 
 4128. What effect do you think the grinding and 
 polishing has on the health of the men employed? — I 
 think at the works that 1 have seen the process is very 
 oeitain in its effect in producing fibrosis — of course, I 
 am referring now to grinding with the grindstone 
 especially. 
 
 4129. Dry grinding ? — No, wet grinding. I have had 
 a great number of men under my care suffering from 
 fibrosis, and I dare say my statistics will show that 
 there is no doubt their complaints have arisen from the 
 grinding. 
 
 4130. Could you put your ideas into figures ? Sup- 
 posing a young man began to grind, say, at the age of 
 21, how long would he be able to continue? — They 
 generally commence a year or so before that. — at about 
 the age of 18. Employers will not start them earlier 
 under the present union rules, though I believe they 
 used tO' start, grinding as early as 14 years of age. 
 
 4131. Supposing a man started grinding at. the age 
 of 18, could you form any idea at what age he would 
 begin to deveJop fibrosis, and how many out of 10 men 
 would you expect would get it, and at what age would 
 they get it ? — I should not say that fibrosis of the lungs 
 would be very definitely developed in 10 years in the 
 case of ij, young man starting, say, at the age of 18 or 
 20. It would not be well marked up to the age of 30, 
 because I think the system would resist it. 
 
 4132. At what age would you expect to find it? — 
 Taking the general run of cases, as far as I can make 
 out it would be from about 36 to 43 or 44. 
 
 4133. Do you say, in fact, as a general rule, that it 
 would take 20 years of grinding for the symptoms to 
 begin to manifest themselves? — Yes; if a man was 
 apparently free from any predisposition, I should think 
 it would be quite that time before there were any well- 
 marked symptoms appearing. Perhaps he might have 
 an attack now and then of bronchial trouble, which is of 
 A'ery frequent occurrence, and which is attributed 
 rather to catching cold ; still, even then you can see 
 there are well-marked symptoms of other troubles 
 beyond those of m.ere bronchial catarrh producing an 
 unhealthy appearance in a man who is so affected— he 
 looks bad. 
 
 4134. As a general rule does the really serious trouble 
 -•begin in 20 years ?— Yes, I think so, very frequently. 
 
 4135. Taking 10 men starting free from disease at the 
 age of 18 years in the grinding trade, how many would 
 you expect to find showing marked signs of fibrosis by 
 the time they were 40 years of age, supposing they had 
 been working in rather bad shops?— I should think 
 only one or two. 
 
 4136. Would you say that perhaps two out of 10 you 
 would expect to find would begin to be seriously troubled 
 at 40 years of age ? — Yes. 
 
 4137. Supposing you again visited the same men at 
 the age of 45 or 50 years, what would you expect to find 
 their condition to be ?— As to that I do not know that i 
 could give you any definite answer. I have not pre- 
 pared any statistics, but I should think you would find 
 three or four who would be affected at the age of 45. 
 I have several men in the club at present who are 45 
 years of age, and there are four or five cases which are 
 just commencing ; but still there is no doubt as to what 
 the trouble is. There are about 38 men m the club 
 altogether, and they ai-e all under 45, I thmk ; but 1 
 have foiir well-marked cases amongst them, 
 
 419 
 
 4138. Is it your opinion that by the time young ;(f,., 5 Poole 
 healthy men hiive worked 20 years at this trade in a m.d. 
 
 bad factoi-y, one out of five would begin to show some 
 
 serious trouble ? — I think so. 1^ J'l-"- 1907- 
 
 4139. And when they reach the age of 50, I suppose 
 the percentage would be increased ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 4140. Have you formed any opinion as to the expec- 
 tation of life of men who work at this grinding work in 
 a rajther bad factory, as compa,red with the expectation 
 of life of men engaged in ordinary occupations ? — Yes. 
 I think the expectation of life amongst men engaged in 
 this calling is very much lower. 
 
 4141. Can you put it into figures at all ? — It would 
 be very difficult to do so, but from a number of oases I 
 have collected I have arrived at the conclusion that the 
 average age of the people engaged in it is 44 or 45 
 years. I am taking the average number of men I have 
 known who have died at the age of 43 to 45. I may say 
 that in making inquiries amongst the men themselves 
 I find that if a man lives to SO in this business he is 
 looked upon as an old man ; and when a man is 50 he 
 looks quite seven or eight years older than he really is. 
 
 4142. Would the whole of the people employed look 
 haggard, or only some of them ? — AH of them except the 
 very young people. 
 
 4143. Would only some of them have serious trouble, 
 or would there be. many of them whose health would be 
 more or less impaired? — I think in a bad works they 
 Vi'ould all have serious trouble. 
 
 4144. Is there a good deal of difference now between 
 the conditions in works in the sense of some of them 
 being much less dangerous than others ? — Yes, I should 
 think so; but I cannot say that I have had much 
 experience as to many different kinds of works. 
 
 4145. Have you come across some grinders who have 
 been emplo.y€d in some works who. do. not seem to have 
 been affected much, even where they have had no fans 
 or hoods? — lu connection with the emery wheel I think 
 there has been very great improvement made in Wol- 
 verhamp'ton recently. 
 
 4146. Do you mean that working with the emery 
 wheel ie not so dangerous as working with the stone 
 wheel ? — Yes, I think so. ; but they are using fans more 
 now. I have not noticed that the emery wheel is so 
 dangerous, or so markedly dangerous. 
 
 4147. You could find some men engaged in grinding 
 who are healthy men, I suppose, could you not ? — Yes. 
 
 4148. Is it your opinion that the occupation of a 
 grinder must be a dangerous occupation, or could a 
 great deal be done to make it a relatively safe occupa- 
 tion ? — As I have seen it I should think the occupation 
 is a very dangerous one indeed, but I do. not say it 
 cannot be improved and made less dangerous. From 
 my experience of it I think it is nearly certain to he- 
 fatal in the end. 
 
 4149. But you only gave a figure of two out of 10, did 
 you not .'* — That was up to the age 01 40 ; if they went 
 on longer they would be ahnost certain to get fibrosis 
 of the lungp. 
 
 4150. Would you say that if they went on to the age 
 of 65 they would all have fibrosis of the lungs ? — Ye.s. 
 But, of .course, then there might be other things super- 
 vening which might hide the fibrosis. — there might be 
 some other disease which would attack a man and take 
 him off. 
 
 4151. On the other hand, I suppose you do meet with 
 a cei-tain number of grinders who escape fibrosis alto- 
 gether ? — That is rather a difficult question to answer. 
 The men who have b.een engaged in this work who have 
 com.e under my, notice have come to me, nearly all of 
 them., in consequence of lung trouble, except perhaps 
 in certain oases, where they have had rheumatism. 
 
 4152. Yo.u would not see the healthy ones at all, I 
 
 suppose ? No ; of course they would not come under my 
 
 ken at all. 
 
 4153. (Professor Allhutt.) Do you think it is very 
 difficult to distinguish .between fibrosis produced by 
 alcohol and fibrosis produced by other causes ? — Yes. 
 
 4154. Have you had much experience with regard to 
 autopsy in .these cases ? — No. 
 
 4155. In the statement which you have furnished to 
 the Committee you have mentioned one or two cases, 
 but I suppose they were accidental cases ? — Yes, quito 
 so. 
 
 4156. Have you happened to see an autopsy on a 
 
 K 
 
130 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. S. Poole, workman wlio had died from some accident, for in- 
 M.D. ' stance, after he had been engaged for some years as a 
 
 grinder ? — No. I think it is rather rai-e to find cases of 
 
 14 Jan. iy07. aocident in connection with these men, except in the 
 case of a stone breaking and striking them. 
 
 4157. Is the trade of which we have been speaking 
 the only trade of Wolverhampton ? — ^No. 
 
 4158. Have you seen fibrosis developed in other tradee 
 in this town ? — I have not ; but I think that basic slag 
 work gives rise to fibrosis. 
 
 4159. If you examined a man of 40 years of age who 
 had been engaged as a grinder, and you did not know 
 that he had been so- engaged, would you be' able to say 
 that he had worked at that trade ? — I think it would be 
 possible to dO' that, because you can detect some fibrosis 
 which is due tO' mechanical causes ; I think they are 
 fairly definite, but I do not say it would be so in all 
 cases. 
 
 4160. It is always very difiicult to bring general 
 'principles to bear on individual cases. But supposing 
 a man claimed compensation, and you knew of your 
 own knowledge that his cough and shortness of breath 
 were out of all proportion to the physical indications 
 found in his lungs, would that make you fairly certain 
 that the disease from which he was suffering was pul- 
 monary fibrosis? — I think so, because it is so very 
 marked. 
 
 4161. You dan distinguish between one man who has 
 tuberculous consumption, another with emphysema, 
 and another with fibrosis ? — Yes, but emphysema is in 
 patches. 
 
 4162. What I mean is that a man who is not a grinder 
 may have ordinary emphysema : do you think you 
 could pick out grinder's fibrosis from such cases ?— 
 Yes, I think so. There is not necessarily much fibrosis 
 with emphysema conditions in an ordinary man. 
 
 4163. And the clinical story is a different one from 
 that of ordinary phthisis ? — Yes ; you get the retrac- 
 tion of the lungs so marked. 
 
 4164. When you gO' into these shops can you see 
 the ill-effects of their employment in the large 
 majority of the men? — ^Yes, I should say so. 
 
 4165. Can you say whether there is any difference in 
 the aspect of the men, from a medical point of view, 
 employed' in good shops and in bad shops? — I cannot 
 say that my experience is so great as to be able to say 
 which is a good shop and which is a bad shop. I have 
 been into a good shop where the grinders look fairly 
 well, and I have been into a bad shop where they bear 
 the aspect of grinders, but I would not like to say 
 definitely which was the man employed in a bad shop 
 and which was the man employed in a good shop, 
 because I think they are all bad. 
 
 4166. Is there any shop go good that you would not 
 be able to say, taking the appearance of tbe men, that 
 there was anything the matter with them ? — I do not 
 think that the men look so easy and natural as ordinary 
 working men ; they are more pale. 
 
 4167. Comparing them with the workmen in other 
 trades, do they present a different appearance P — Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 4168. In your statement you say : " I have never seen 
 a grinder without fibrosis." — Will you explain to- the 
 Committee what you mean by that ?— I do not, of 
 course, examine every grinder ; I am only speaking of 
 men who have come to me in cases of sickness. We do 
 not examine every grinder at work at a certain age, and 
 probably you might find some who are not affected at 
 all, but those who come under our notice have been 
 affected with something, though very frequently they 
 do not complain of the lungs. 
 
 4169. With regard to the entries in. Table 6, which 
 you have furnished tO' the Committee, are tJiey consecu- 
 tive or selected entries ? — That is simply a list of men : 
 when they stai-fced work ; what age they are at present ; 
 and whether they have suffered from chest troubles. I 
 should explain that they have not all been under my 
 care. 
 
 4170. Is the list a copy of the sick list of the club in 
 connection with any works ? — It is a list' of the men in 
 receipt of sick pay, taken from the books, by the 
 secretary. Of course he does not know exactly what 
 their troubles have been except that they have been 
 chest troubles. I cannot vouch for the truth of the 
 list, and can only tell you that it is taken from the 
 books. 
 
 4171. What is the name of the secretary ? — His name 
 is Vincent. ' 
 
 4172. Do grinders drink harder than other classes of 
 men ? — Not all of them, but I think they are, perhaps, 
 as a class, very much addicted to drink. 
 
 4173. Is there anything in the nature of theii- em- 
 ployment which leads them to that, do you think ?~l 
 could not say ; but it is a very common thing, where 
 there is dust about, for workmen to drink. 
 
 4174. Because alcohol, in excess, disposes to tuber- 
 culosis, does it not P — Yes. 
 
 4175. Do I gather from you that you consider ordi- 
 naj-y phthisis is more prevalent amongst this particular 
 class of men than amongst others P — No, I do not think 
 it is. 
 
 4176. (Dr. Legge.) How many years have you been in 
 charge of the Unillington Sick Club P — I think five or 
 six years', but I really could not give you an accurate 
 statement. Of course I come across a number of the 
 people as Medical Officer of the parish district. 
 
 4177. How long have you been in charge of the parish 
 district ? — Nearly 12 years. 
 
 4178. As parisb doctor do the grinders come under 
 you as incurable cases? — No, they came to me as 
 grinders suffering from some trouble, generally the 
 chest. 
 
 4179. But as parish doctor you would have under 
 you, I suppose, grinders who were incapable of 
 continuing their workp — Yes, because the clubs only 
 pay them for a certain time — six months I think it is. 
 
 4180. Are there a number now receiving outdoor 
 relief who are suffering from this disease P — No, I have 
 not any myself now receiving outdoor relief. 
 
 4181. I thought you said that you had had cases?— 
 Yes, I have had cases during the last 12 years ; I had 
 four cases recently, but the patients have died. 
 
 4182. Were they rendered incapable of work, and 
 can you say how many years on an average 
 they lived after they gave up work? — I can tell you 
 with regai'd to the last four cases I had. I had a case 
 of a man named Pearce, who was 36 years of age. 1 
 attended him for about seven or eight months, but !he 
 then went to another district and was under the cane of 
 another medical officer. 
 
 4183. Is that man alive? — No, he is dead. Then 
 there was anothei- man named Priest, who was ill about 
 four years. 
 
 4184. Can you say how long they do live after they 
 give up work ? — One man died at the age of 36, about 
 18 months after he gave up his work. His father was 
 also a grinder, and died fairly young. The man Priest 
 was a grinder, and lived until he was 53 years' of age. 
 
 4185. How long was it after he had given up work 
 that he died — ^how long was he an invalid.'' — About four 
 yeaa-s. 
 
 4186. Do you remember how long he had shown 
 symptoms and had still been able to continue work ?— 
 No, because I did not see him until he came under n>y 
 notice after leaving his employment. One of the men 
 I have named in the list you have was at work until 
 within thi-ee months before he died. 
 
 4187. Do you think you could take five years as the 
 limit of life after the disease has become apparent in 
 them.P — I think after they began to show symptoms, it 
 they gave up the work and thea-e was no depositot 
 tubercle, they would recover to some extent. ■ 
 
 4188. Do you actually know of cases where there have 
 been signs of fibrosis and the man has' left the work and 
 taken to some healthy employment and recovered?— 
 Yes. I made inquiries, and I did find one man. He 
 left work suffering from his lungs. I did not attend 
 him, and he did not come under my obsei-vation, but I 
 am told he left the work for thi-ee years, got better, 
 and has started it again. 
 
 4189. So that fibrosis in itself is not necessarily fatal 
 if a man can give up the work in time? — It will 
 produce bad effects latM- in life ; if you get fibrosis early 
 you do not again return to a natural condition. 
 
 4190. But would not any damaged -portions heal up' 
 — Yes, but the contraction would produce further 
 damage. 
 
 4191. Even supposing the work were given up'" 1 
 Yes. I think if the irritation is removed by leaving an 
 employment or occupation giving rise to the irritatioti i 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 131 
 
 there is no fm-ther formation of fibroid tissue, or if 
 there is it is very slow in its process, and the individual 
 lives; but if a scarred tissue is once formed I do not 
 see any possibility of getting rid of it, and once it is 
 formed it must produce its effect later on. 
 
 4192. (Professor AMbvii.) Do you find, generally 
 speaking, amongst working men of the age of 60, 
 that the marks of senile decay, degeneration, emphy- 
 sema, etc., are very considerable? — Not necessarily so ; 
 I think there are a great number of men who are very 
 healthy at that age, and I have come across many. I 
 should not put them down as senile at the age of 60. 
 
 4193. Then I suppose up to the ages you have spoken 
 of there would be no difficulty in distinguishing between 
 cases of mere senile decay and cases of fibrosis? — 
 Fibroeds would start earlier. 
 
 4194. If a man arrived at the age of 60 and developed 
 emphysema what would you say ? — I think emphysema 
 is of a moi-e marked ohai-acter, because you get it in 
 patches in fibrosis. 
 
 4195. (Chairman.) Taking the case of a man of 18 up 
 to about 30, he would not show many symptoms, I 
 suppose, except occasionally a little bronchitis ? — I do 
 not think he would show much. I think he would stand 
 the work all right up to then— his system would resist 
 the effects. 
 
 4196. Supposing the men employed in this kind of 
 work were included in the third schedule of the Work- 
 men's Compensation Act, it would possibly end in 
 turning out of the trade the older men, would it not? 
 — But there are so few of them who are really old. 
 
 4197. But would it not mean that those men begin- 
 ning to work in the trade at 18 would have to stop at 
 35 years of age, and then go to some other employ- 
 ment? — Yes, probably. 
 
 4198. Are not the Conditions such that if they 
 became the subjects of compensation it would very 
 probably end in men working at the trade until they 
 were 35 years of age and then taking up some other 
 occupation ? — Yes, and I think they would be very wise 
 if they did. 
 
 4199. Supposing they turned to some other occupa- 
 tion at the age of 35, before any marked symptoms had 
 shown tiemselves, do you think they would be likely 
 to recover to a certain extent ? — I think their expecta- 
 tions of life would bo greater than if they continued at 
 the work, certainly. 
 
 4200. There are other occupations a man who' has 
 been a grinder could take up, I suppose ? Do grindei-"^ 
 change their occupations much as. a rule ? — No, I do not 
 think they do. I think they stick to their work. 
 
 4201. Then would there not be a tendency for them 
 to become what you might call an unemployed class a* 
 the age of 35 ? — Yes, but you see it is a very simple kind 
 of work — although it is hard work it is not skilled work. 
 
 4202. Have you any razor grinders in this town? — 
 No ; that is more skilled work. 
 
 4203. (Professor Allbutt.) Do the men employed in j^,. g p^gi^ 
 the work consider it a dangerous occupation ? — No, ^x, 
 they do not think anything about it. ll_^ 
 
 4204. Do they not realise that it is dangerous at all ? ^* J*"- 1^7. 
 — No^, they do not realise it at all. 
 
 4205. Do' they not consider it ?— No, they do not con- 
 sider it — or rather they do consider it in a way, because 
 I have spoken to. a great number of the grinders, and 
 have talked about the age to. which they live, and they 
 all say, " Well, we know he is an old man at 50." That 
 is the way in which they speak of themselves and their 
 trade. 
 
 4206. (Chairman.) In your view ought the employ- 
 ment to be made as safe as it possibly can be made by 
 the use of suitable apparatus ? — Certainly. 
 
 4207. Secondly, do you think that it would be a very 
 good thing to giet men to leave the work at the age of 
 35 or thereabouts ? — Yes, it would be if they have not 
 been affected in the least degree, because if they con- 
 tinue, as far as I can see, they are bound to become 
 affected. 
 
 4208. Can you tell the Committee anything with 
 regaa-d to the basic slag industry ? — My experience is 
 very small with r€.gard to. the basic slag industry. I 
 have tried to find out as much as I could about it, but I 
 do not think I can say anything about it from a pro- 
 fessional point of view. Apai-t from whati I have indi- 
 cated to' the Committee I do not think I can tell you 
 anything. 
 
 4209. (Br. Le/jge.) Amongst your patients have you 
 had oases of illness which you have attributed to- the 
 inhalation of fumes from ammonium chloride? — No, 
 except that I have had. oases in which my patients have 
 complained of bronchial catara-h. 
 
 4210. Do you know of any inquiry that has been 
 made into the subject of galvanising work and the 
 effect of ammonium chloride fumes ? — No. 
 
 4211. Your attention has not been drawn to' the 
 effect^ of ammonium chloride fumes in the same way 
 that it has been drawn to the results produced by the 
 grinding trade ? — No, not at all. 
 
 4212. Do you know whether galvanising is a large 
 industi-y in your district or not ? — There is a good deal 
 of galvanising done here, and the tinning of hollow 
 ware, if that be the siame thing. I do not know if they 
 use spirits of salt, but these paiticulai- works use 
 chloride of ammonia. 
 
 4213. Is there anything to distinguish the symptoms 
 produced by the inhalation of ties© fumes from that of 
 ordinary bronchial catarrh ? — No, not that I am aware 
 of, except that a man complains of a certain amount of 
 dyspc'ptic trouble. 
 
 4214. Have you had any cases under your notice 
 which you believe to. be due to the effects of arseniuretted 
 hydrogen given off in the process of galvanising — ior 
 instance, such as jaundice, etc. ? — No, I do not know 
 that I have. 
 
 Mr. Henbt Maiet, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 4215. (Chairman.) Are you Medical Officer of Health 
 for the County Borough of Wolverhampton ? — Yes. 
 
 4216. There are no statistics apparently available, 
 are there, with regard to life and death of men em- 
 ployed in the grinding trade ? — -Not that I am aware of. 
 The particulai's furnished to. me do. not contain any 
 information as to occupation ; the Registrars may get 
 tthoB© partdculans, but I do not. 
 
 4217. Are you able to. throw any light on the question 
 of the safety or otherwise of this particular occupation ? 
 — Of my own personal knowledge, none. 
 
 4216. What would you say with regard to the matter 
 from what you have leai'nt or know ? — I know that the 
 inhaling of any irritating dust is certain to cause 
 trouble, but I do not think that is quite what you 
 mean. If you want to know whether I have any special 
 knowledge on the subject, I have not — that is to say, in 
 my own practical experience here. 
 
 4219. Do the death returns show cases of death from 
 fibroid pithisis ? — As an actual matter of fact, I think 
 I hardly ever get that cause of death specifically given. 
 
 4220. What sort of return would you get? — Simply 
 phthisis or tuberculosis of tie lungs. Fibroid phthisis 
 
 419 
 
 is very seldom i-eturned as a cause of death, and even 
 then it need not be fibroid phthisis caused by irrita- 
 tion. All phthisis is more or less fibroid phthisis. 
 
 4221. (Professor Allhuft.) Do you think that the 
 number of deaths arising from chest diseases is high 
 in Wolverhampton ? — No, I do not think it is ; com- 
 pared with other towns I think our returns are very 
 favourable. 
 
 4222. Then the retui-ns do not suggest to you 
 that there is any particular element in Wolverhampton 
 wliioh would lead to the death rate being higher from 
 those causes ? — No ; and even if the grinders of Wolver- 
 hampton were specially affected they constitute a very 
 small proportion of the population. They might have 
 an effect on the phthisis returns alone, but taking the 
 whole of the deaths from respiratory diseases I do not 
 think tih© figure is a very serious one. 
 
 4223. May I take it that the number of cases of 
 phthisis amongst grinders, even if excessive, would not 
 be sufficient to. load the figures unduly ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4224. (Dr. Legge.) Have you any idea as to the 
 number of grinders there are in Wolverhampton and 
 the district ? — No, I have not. 
 
 K 2 
 
 Mr. H. 
 Malet, M,D, 
 
132 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. H. 
 Maid, M D. 
 
 14 Jon. 1907. 
 
 4225. Is that infoi-mation not givea in the Census 
 Returns ? — I suppose it would be, but I do not know. 
 
 4226. Is thea-e any occupation entered in a certifi- 
 cate of death when information is given to the 
 Kegistrar P — No, I do not think so. May I state that' I 
 have seen a certificate from a Registrar given to an 
 insurano3 eompany in which there was entered the 
 occupation of the deceased, but on the certificate of 
 death no occupation is entered. 
 
 4227-8. I get copies of certificates of death in which 
 the cause of death has been given as lead poisoning, and 
 ou that the occupation of the deceased person is 
 stated ? — They must be special certificates. When a 
 person goes to the Registrar of Births and Deaths the 
 Registrar asks a certain number of questions, but what 
 they are I do not know. 
 
 4229. Is not a copy of the information furnished to 
 the Registrar sent to the Medical Officer of Health ? — 
 No ; the only particulars which are sent to us as 
 Medical Oflftcers of Health are these : we get a list each 
 week of the total number of persons registered ; the 
 names ; the ages ; place of death and cause of death — 
 that is all. 
 
 4230. Then you do not get a copy of the Registrar': 
 information ? — No, not the whole information. 
 
 4231. Can you say whether the moi-taJity from 
 phthisis amongst the male population of Wolvcrhamp. 
 ^n is greater or less than amongst the female popular 
 tion ? — I oould not ; but of course I could get that infor- 
 mation for the Conimittee for the last few years. 
 
 4232. Could you get it for definite age pei-iods — say 
 decennial periods .^ — Yes, I will do so. 
 
 4233. {Professor AUbutt.) You are physician to the 
 Hospital here, I believe ? — Yes. 
 
 4234. Do you see any cases of fibroid phthisis thers? 
 — Yes, I do ; but if you had asked me off-hand thret 
 days ago I could not have said that I could recoUert 
 having seen a case of fibroid phthisis for years. How- 
 ever, it so happens that the very last day I was there — 
 that was on Saturday — I saw a man who had fibroid 
 ])hthisis, and it at once struck m© that I might have 
 seen cases like it once or twice a fortnight, but one doe? 
 not make a mental note of such things. 
 
 4235. I suppose that kind of case would not be taken 
 into your hospital ? — No. 
 
 Mr. T. Ridley Bailey, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. T. R. 
 Bailey, m.d. 
 
 4236. {Chairman.) Are you Medical Officer of Health 
 for Bilston? — Yea; and I am Certifying Factory 
 Surgeon for the district. 
 
 4237. .Can you tell the Committee an3rthing with 
 regard to the galvanising industry, and the injury to 
 health caused to workers in the trade? — I have no 
 knowledge of any special injui-y other than that caused 
 by arsenic and lead, and the injury caused in connection 
 with the arsenic, I believe, was caused by a mistake. 
 
 4238. Is not arsenic commonly dangerous then. ? — No ; 
 of course it is always to be anticipated, but we dO' not 
 get much trouble with it. 
 
 4239. Galvanising is done with zinc and lead, is it 
 not P — Yes. 
 
 4240. What is the daaiger with regard to galvanising 
 work ? — I think it arises from the fumes. 
 
 4241. What is the stuff which is used as flux ? — I am 
 not quite sure, but I tnink they use ammonium 
 chloride, and of course you have the fumes of chlorine 
 and hydrochloric acid. 
 
 4242. Have you seen men who have been affected by 
 those fumes ? — ^No, not seriously. 
 
 4243. Can you give the Committee any information 
 with regard to basic sliag ? — ^We have only one works in 
 the district, and I have never had any notification of 
 any special trouble in connection with tihem. Of course 
 nO' notice comes to me except in the case of accident, 
 and with regard to the treatment of the men I have 
 no special experience. 
 
 4244. {Dr. Legqe.) Do you know of any inquiry which 
 has been made as to the effect of the galvanising pro- 
 cesses ? — I think I have heard of one, but I have no 
 recollection definitely about it. 
 
 4245. Were not you consulted when the Committee 
 on Dangerous Trades sat here in the year 1897 or 1898 ? 
 — I do not think eo. 
 
 4246. How long have you been in practice in Bilston ? 
 — About 25 years. 
 
 4247. You said, did you not, that there were fumes 
 nrising from hydrochloric acid? — Yes. 
 
 4248. Have you noticed any effect from that on the 
 teeth of the workei-S' ?■ — No, not specially. 
 
 4249. Have they consulted you with reference to any 
 
 such thing ? — No ; I have had no special oonsultatiorw 
 with regard tO' such a tiing. 
 
 4250. With regjard to arsenic, what form did the 
 arsenical poisoning take in the particular cases you 
 investagated ? — It caused a considerable amount of 
 jaundice and gastric disturbance, and the men broke 
 down, but they all recovered eventually — it was a 
 matter of a few months. 
 
 4251. That was due to arseniuretted hydrogen poieon- 
 ing, was it.P — Yes. 
 
 4252. Would you consider that that would be under- 
 stood as arsenical poisoning ? — I do not laiow that we 
 
 considei-ed at the time that it was due to arsenic in 
 the ordinary way ; it was really arseniuretted hydrogen 
 inhalation. 
 
 4253. The Committee which reported on the galvanis- 
 ing trade seemed to think that the fumes might affect 
 young workere under 18 yeare of age — ^what is your 
 opinion on that point ? — I dare say they would. 
 
 4254. -Ai-e there any such workers employed in gal- 
 vanising works ? — The galvanising work is generally 
 part of a general ironworks in our district, and of 
 course there are young people employed all over the 
 works. 
 
 4255. Have you to examine them ? — Yes ; but not 
 with regard to the galvanising work specially. I am 
 not aware that any of them go particulai-ly to' work at 
 galvanising at first, though they may be sent there 
 afterwards. 
 
 4256. Do you know of any factories where they take 
 steps tO' remove the fumes by ventilation? — ^I think 
 most of the factories in our. district have beem im- 
 proved in that respect. 
 
 4257. In what way ? — They have improved their ven- 
 tilation generally — ^I do not know that there is any 
 special apparatus used. 
 
 4258. Are there any mechanical means for taking off 
 the fumes, to your knowledge? — I am under the im- 
 pression that I have seen some, but I do not know 
 where. 
 
 4259. Do you know what the material is with which 
 the galvanising bath is heated— is it coal or coke?— I 
 think it is mixed. 
 
 4260. Have you had any cases of carbonic oxide 
 poisoning from the effects of fumes ? — No. 
 
 4261. May I take it, then, that your evidence is 
 altogether negative?— I think so, and I am sorry I 
 cannot help you more. 
 
 4262. {Professor AUbutt.) Are you in active practice? 
 
 — Yes. 
 
 4263. Is your practice amongst the working classes? 
 — It is an artisan district. 
 
 4264. Have you any clubs in your district ?— Very 
 few. 
 
 4265. Do you generally know the trades in which the 
 people you attend are engaged ? — Yes. 
 
 4266. Would you say, for instance, as regaixls basic 
 slag that your patients employed in thai work preseuted 
 ajiy ohai-acteristic symptoms ?— No I do not think they 
 do. ' 
 
 4267. Would you say the same thing with regard to 
 the other trades of which you have spoken ?— I do not 
 think they do. I heard pai-t of Dr. Poole's evidence, 
 but phthisis is not common with us. 
 
 4268. {Dr. Zerjge.) Is grinding carried on extensivelj 
 m your district?— No ; there are no grinding works, as 
 such, at Bilston. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 133 
 
 FIFTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, 15th January 1907. 
 
 Notes of examinations mad© by Professor Clifford Allbutt and Dr. Legge at Messrs. Chillington's Works. 
 
 TSTo 
 
 No. 
 
 No. 1.- — Aged 55. Employed as wet grinder between 
 38 and 39 years. In present employment 27 
 years. Sympitoms : Negative, has no oough, 
 and feels no effect from employment. 
 
 No. 2. — Aged 36. Employed in grinding and polishing 
 23 years ; 14 years as wet grinder. Symptoms : 
 Slight cough, but good wind ; better on the left 
 side than on the right. — Expiration sound — 
 rather prolonged. No aiiEemia. 
 
 No. 3. — Aged 41. In present employment 20 years. 
 Wet grinder all nis life. Symptoms : Imperfect 
 expansion ; feeble ; rather harsh inspiration — 
 cough. 
 
 4. — Aged 29. In present employment 15 years. 
 Wet grinding three years ; polisher before 
 that. Symptoms : Well nourished, no ajisemia, 
 breath sound, weak heart — thin in front, harsh 
 at right apex. 
 
 5. — Aged 37. Employed as wet grinder 15 
 years. General labourer before. Symptoms : 
 Slight cough, good wind, no effects from em-, 
 ployment up to the present. 
 
 No. 6.- — Aged 32. Wet grinder for 14 years. In pre- 
 sent employment 10 years. Symptoms : No 
 oough. No emaciation of ansemia. Chest drags 
 on inspiration. Breath sounds breathing, 
 lower half of right lung behind. 
 
 No. 7. — Aged 24. Employed as wet grinder. In pre- 
 sent employment 2 years. At Messre. Perks 
 and Co. 4 years. Symptoms : No oough or 
 shortness of breath ; defective breathing, 
 lower half of right lung behind. 
 
 No. 8. — Aged 36. Employed as wet grinder 4 years. 
 With Messrs. Perks and Co. 11 years. Sym- 
 toms : No shortness of breath or cough. Very 
 harsh breathing ; imperfect expansion. 
 
 No-. 9. — Aged 28. Employed as wet grinder 12^ years. 
 In present employment 1^ years. With 
 Messrs. Perks and Co. 11 years. Symptoms : 
 No cough, expansion poor ; breathing shallow, 
 no adventitious sounds ; no anaemia or emacia- 
 tion. 
 
 No. lO.^Aged 36. Employed as wet grinder nearly 
 2 years ; as file grinder 16 years. Symptoms : 
 Negative. 
 
 No. 11. — ^Aged 28. Employed as wet grinder 7 years. 
 In present employment one year, previously 6 
 years as brass moulder. Symptoms : No cough 
 or effects from trade. Expansion good ; breath 
 sounds normal ; no ansemia or emaciation. 
 
 No. 12. — Aged 34. Employed as wet grinder. In pre- 
 sent employment 2 years ; at Messrs. Brades 
 16 years. Symptoms : No cough or shortnesis 
 
 I'jvfcssor 
 ^illhutl anil 
 Jh: Leggc. 
 
 of breath. Slight wheezy inspiration on the 
 right breast. 
 No. 13. — Aged 59. Present employment 18 years ; 
 
 diy grinding at emery wheel 4 years; is Jan. 1907. 
 
 wet grinding at wet stone 14 yeai-s. Previously 
 
 20 years wet grinding — edge tool grinding. 
 Symptoms : Sometimes has slight, cough ; no 
 ansemia ; muscles wasted ; breath sounds 
 feeble; and markedly harsh on left side in 
 front; expansion feeble. 
 
 No. 14. — Aged 32. Employed as glazer on emery bob 
 (dry grinding and polishing). In present em- 
 ployment 19 years. Employed in old unventi- 
 lated shop without hoods. Symptoms : Nega- 
 tive ; no cough to speak of, and finds no ill- 
 effects from the work. 
 
 No. 15. — ^Aged 47. Employed as glazer in old unventi- 
 lated shop for 20 years. Previously polishing 
 
 13 years in the same trade. Symptoms : A 
 little cough at times ; well nourished ; no 
 ansemia ; expansion poor ; breath sounds 
 natural. 
 
 No. 16. — Aged 25. Employed as glazer. In present 
 employment 12 years in old shop. Symptoms : 
 Negative ; no cough. 
 
 No. 17. — Aged 44. Employed as glazer of cast-iron 
 articles for 16 years. Glazer of sad irons for 
 
 14 years. Employed in old shop. Symptoms : 
 No cough ; no ansemia ; no emaciation ; ex- 
 pansion feeble and breath sounds poor. 
 
 No. 18. — Aged 25. Employed as glazer and rougher. 
 In present employment 9 years in old shop.' 
 Labourer previously. Symptoms : Slight 
 cough ; wind not so good as it was. 
 
 No. 19. — Aged 42. Employed as glazer. Present em- 
 ployment 6 years in new ventilated sliojo. 
 Elsewhere 18 years — all edge tools. Sym- 
 toms : Negative. 
 
 No. 20. — ^Aged 23. Employed as glazer in new venti- 
 lated shop for 7 years. Symptoms : No cough, 
 no ansemia or emaciation. Chest quite normal. 
 
 No. 21. — Aged 34. Employed as glazer. In present 
 employment 16 years in new shop. Sym- 
 toms : Slight cough, but not in the day- 
 time ; expansion good ; breath sounds natural ; 
 no- antemia. 
 
 General Note. — As a general characteristic there 
 seems to be great difficulty in drawing a full inspira- 
 tion ; there is a considerable drag in the accessory 
 muscles of inspiration ; the chest expands very im- 
 perfectly, and the breathing generally to the ear is 
 inexpressed, feeble, and ill-drawn. 
 
 Notes of examinations made by Professor Clifford Allbutt and Dr. Legge at Messrs. William Edwards 
 
 and Sons, Limited (New Griffin Works). 
 
 No. 22. — Aged 30. Employed as wet grinder. In pre- 
 sent employment 15 years. Symptoms : In- 
 convenience sometimes from getting dust on 
 stomach. Breatihing of both lungs wanting in 
 quality, imperfectly expressed, "woolly" in 
 character. Behind breathing fairly normal at 
 back of left lung, but comparatively defective 
 at back of right lung. 
 
 No. 23. — Aged 29. Employed as wet grinder. In 
 present employment 8 years. Symptoms : 
 Cough in the morning on getting out of 
 bed, but wind good. Expectorates ; prolonga- 
 tion of expiration. 
 
 No. 24. — Aged 26. Employed as dry grinder or polisher. 
 In present employment 13 years. Symptoms : 
 Negative. 
 
 Professor 
 ^illbutt and 
 Dr. L'ggt. 
 
134 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 SIXTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Wednesday, 16th January/ 1907. 
 
 Mr. Henet Oitnynghame, c.b. {in the Chair) 
 Professor Cliffobd ALLBtiTT, r.n.s. 
 
 PKESENT : 
 
 I Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettant {Acting Secretary), 
 
 Mr. Abchibald Kekr Chalmees, m.d., d.p.h., called in and Examined. 
 
 Mr A K 4269. {Chairman.) You are Medical Officer of Health 
 
 Chalmers ^°^' ^^^ ^^^y ^^ Glasgow, formerly Assessor Examiner 
 
 M,D., D.p. H. i" Forensic and State Medicine in the University of 
 
 Aberdeen, ex-President of the Scottish Branch of the 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. Incorporated Society of Medical Officers of Health, and 
 of the Sanitary Association of Scotland ?— Yes. 
 
 4270. You have prepared a short statement, which 
 you are handing in to us ? — Yes. It is as follows : — 
 
 Extent of Metallurgical Industries. — ^Alt-hough Glas- 
 gow may be said to be the centie of the coal and iron 
 industries in the west of Scotland, it is eo chiefly by 
 way of utilising for trade and export purposes the 
 already produced or manufactured material. There is 
 thus, I think, only one iron work producing pig iron on 
 a large scale, at least within the area of the munici- 
 pality of Glasgow (W. Dixon amd Co., Ltd., Govanhill), 
 and only three, I think, where steel is manufactured 
 (Blochaim (pig), Parkhead (steel), and Springfield 
 Works, London Road (steel). With these exceptions 
 (he production of pig iron and steel is mainly confined 
 to the Clydebridge, Newton, Coatbridge, Motherwell, 
 and Wishaw districts of Lanarkshire ; while, I think, 
 in Ayrshire the only work producing steel, among the 
 many producing pig iron, is Glengamock. Most, in- 
 deed all of these works, save probably CJlydebridge and 
 Newton, are at a sufficient dist^aaice from Glasgow to 
 require a resident population, so that, speaking gener- 
 ally, any impairment of the health of the worker, which 
 might be attributed to the processes of manufacture, 
 and especially any deatlis resulting therefrom, would 
 fail to be reflected in the statistics of Glasgow. There 
 is another feature of these indTistries as conducted in 
 the west of Scotland which is worth noting here, be- 
 cause it seems, toi suggest an explanation of the absence 
 from among the more prevalent, forms of disease, and 
 the causes of deathi in this district, of one group of 
 diseases at least, on which I have been asked to submit 
 evidence, namely, fibrosis of the lung from inhalation of 
 silicious or metallic particles, and pneumonia from the 
 inhalation of basic slaig dust. The feature referred to 
 depends on the nature of the production and the 
 methods employed in its manixfacture. I speak not from 
 any very intimate acquaintance with the technique of 
 steel making, but as *he' result of inquiry. The steel 
 makers in the west of Scotland, with only one exceip- 
 tion, I believe, produce mild steel in the Siemen's 
 Open Hearth Furnace. What is known as basic slag 
 steel, on the other hand, is only produced at Glen- 
 gamock. 
 
 Death Rates in Certain Industries from All and 
 Certain Specified Diseases. — In order to ascertain the 
 death rates in several occupations exposing the worker 
 to metallic or other dust, I select several disea.seQ as 
 illustrating the varying death rates. (Tables VI. to 
 IX. appended.). These .observations are based on an 
 inquiry into the occupational deaths in Glasgow for 
 the years 1901-1902, and the rates- were calculated 
 on the number of persons engaged in the several 
 occupations named at the Census of 1901. In order to 
 establish the general accuracy of the numbers living 
 and returned under the several occupations I liave 
 made the following comparison with the numbers living 
 at con-esponding ages according to my own report on 
 the 1901 Census for this city : — 
 
 Glasgow : Males, ages 25-26 (Census 1901). 
 Numbers living, according to : — 
 
 (1) Medical Officer's Census Report, and 
 
 (2) Employed or othe>rwis© at corresponding ages, 
 from Registrar-General's Report. 
 
 Ages. 
 
 M.O.'s Report. 
 
 Census 
 Enumeration. 
 
 25 to 35 
 
 - 45 
 
 - 55 
 
 - 65 
 
 65,768 
 46,605 
 32.350 
 18,351 
 
 65,822 
 46,471 
 32,312 
 18,414 
 
 
 163,080 
 
 163,019 
 
 I have prepared some further information contrast' 
 ing the movement of the general death ratei of males 
 and females, going back for a period of thirty years, in 
 order to afford a standard with which the industrial 
 death rates may be compared. 
 
 4271. These will all be very valuable to go in as 
 statements of appendices ? — Yes, they form Tables II. to 
 V. in the appendix. I do not know that the last table- 
 given there is of much importance, except to illustrate- 
 the volume of deaths dealt with, and I have not con- 
 tinued the tabulation beyond 1870. 
 
 4272. Will you direct our attention now to any parts- 
 of your statement which would throw light on the- 
 question whether gritty phthisis caught from dust is 
 an important element in considering the mortality in 
 this district ; what conclusions -would you draw from 
 the statement you have put in with regard, in the 
 first place, to phthisis caused by gritty dust? — I pre- 
 pared and have brought charts to illustrate the move- 
 ment of phthisis, and the death rate from phthisis and 
 other diseases of the lungs in Glasgow for a consider- 
 able period. These and the tables pretty well contain- 
 the information desired. 
 
 4273. We have not had time to read the whole of 
 your statement, but perhaps you will give us. in your 
 own words the conclusion you dra-w from this ? — I would 
 refer you to the chart showing in quinquennial periods 
 the movement of phthisis in Glasgow since registration 
 began in 1855. It shows the death rate per million for 
 both sexes in quinquennial periods up to 1903, and it 
 will be seen that it represents a continually decreasing 
 rate. 
 
 4274. To what do you attribute that steady decrease? 
 —There has been quite a revolution in the sanitary 
 condition of Glasgow during that period. Considerable- 
 areas of insanitary property have been removed. That 
 is one factor undoubtedly. Tlien in that period there 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 135 
 
 "has also been great improvement in the general oondi- 
 -tions of living. The standard has been raised. 
 
 4275. But now you are talking of phthisis in 
 general ? — Yes. 
 
 4276. Tuberculous "^htliisis? — It is not possible to 
 distinguish in the earlier records between tubercular 
 and other forms of phthisis ; it is " phthisis " as 
 registered. If there were errors in the certification the 
 
 errors would be included here, but the " decrease " here 
 shown corresponds in general with the improvement 
 -throughout the country. Phthisis has gone down in 
 both sexes. 
 
 i?277. Is there a difference shown as regards males 
 and females. It is shown in that table. 
 
 4278. Have you another table that shows the males ? 
 — I have prepared tables and chart to illustrate the 
 movement in the death rates of each sex separately 
 from " all causes " — ^from " phthisis," from " other 
 respiratory diseases," and from all forms of respiratory 
 diseajses, including phthisis, over 50 years. They cover 
 the industrial period of Ufe, i.e., from 25 to 65, and 
 .are calculated on the deaths registered during the 
 years surrounding the Census years 1871, 1881, 1891, 
 and 1901. (See appended Tables I. to IV.). As illus- 
 tration take the age period 25 to 35 for males. In these 
 four census periods you have the death rate from all 
 Clauses decreasing. In 1870-2 it was 12-8 per 1,000 for 
 males ; in 1900-2 it was 9-3. On referring to Tables 
 II., III., and. IV. the rate from "phthisis" and from 
 ■other respiratory diseases has also declined. If you 
 take the females at the same periods you will get a 
 corresponding change. But there are minor differences. 
 The death) rate of females is higher than in the case of 
 males at the agps 25 to 35. Thijs is so, notably in the 
 rates for " all causes" and for " phthisis." It remains 
 higher for phthisis in females at age 35, but at later 
 ages the rate for males is more uniformly in excess. 
 It is uniformly in excess from " all causes " and from 
 ■" other respiratory 'diseases " after the age of 35. At 
 ■ages 45 and upwards it is now uniformly higher for 
 males, and during the age period 45 there has been no 
 decrease in the phthisis death rate since 1880. (Table 
 TI. Appendix). 
 
 4279. And at that point the females begin to pass 
 the males? — ^Yes. 
 
 4280. Apparently at thirty-five the death rate of 
 the males and females is pretty well on a footing, 
 the one not much worse than the other, but if you 
 out out the age of thirty-five, apparently the death 
 rate all over seems to be less? — I think the hygienic 
 conditions of life for females may be regarded as better, 
 and that you do have industry telling on the males. 
 Of course, there is always a difference through life, 
 even from the infant period — an excess in the rate of 
 male deaths. 
 
 4281. If you are going to leave industrial life, clerks 
 in offices ought to show a different result from opera- 
 tives dn Workshops.? — ^Yes, and corresponding with 
 that in women. 
 
 4282. Have you any information to show that? — 
 No, not showing clerks separately. 
 
 4283. Of course, we may say it could be due to the 
 habits of men ; they smoke, and drink, and so on ? — 
 That is so. I think all these are factors in this, 
 although one cannot say definitely the precise part they 
 play in producing a higher death rate. 
 
 4284. There is a striking difference when shown by 
 the figures in this way? — ^Yes. 
 
 4^5. And the ratio of permanent diseases remains 
 almost constant — not quite? — No, it is increasing. 
 
 4286. But it is pretty much the same in both sexes ? 
 — It is uniformly greater in males after age 45. 
 
 4287. There is another thing it shows, and that is 
 this, that the ratio of phthisis in men is not different 
 from the ratio of phthisis in women ? — Not greatly, save 
 after the age period just referred to. 
 
 4288. If you have phthisis due to industrial dis- 
 eases, wouldn't you expect to see the black marks 
 on the tables going very much higher ? — Yes. 
 
 4289. But you do not see that f — The rate is greater, 
 however. (See Table II.). 
 
 4290-1. Another point occurs to one, and that is 
 that if there was a large portion of the female popu- 
 lation engaged in industry, a large amount of the 
 phthisis produced by industry would be found in 
 females? — It might in particular industries, but save 
 
 in the age periods already alluded to the phthisis Mr. A. K. 
 rate for women is lower than for men. Chalmers, 
 
 4292. Is there a large number of girls engaged in ""- D'. d.p. h. 
 factory work ?-Yes. jg j^^^ ^^^^ 
 
 4293. But are they engaged under conditions in 
 
 which their work is likely to give them phthisis — are 
 
 they engaged in dusty occupations? — Well, I do not 
 think we have any evidence that industrial diseases 
 form an appreciable portion in the death rates of 
 females ; it never occurs to one that you can definitely 
 trace the effect of industry in individual cases among 
 them as you can do in males. 
 
 4294. Will you please explain to us the other table 
 you have produced? — ^It is a talble of comparative 
 mortality figures. 
 
 4295. This is of males? — ^Yes, it is constructed on 
 the census returns of the males engaged in various 
 occupations, and the deaths occurring among them. 
 
 4296. Is this the general death rate ? — It is a com- 
 parative mortality rate- for ages 25 to 65. 
 
 4297. The death rate from all causes ? — ^Yes, from 
 twenty-five up to sixty-five. After taking the standard 
 population the death rate for individual occupa- 
 tions was applied to the group, and then the standard 
 figure got, and it indicates that the worst of all is 
 the group of " labourers." There is this to be said in 
 explanation of the somewhat high figure (2,032, as 
 compared with 1,000 for " all males ") here showing 
 that it is obtained from our " corrected " deaths. We 
 have a system of tabulating deaths in Glasgow after 
 a local inquiry — a visit to the house, and certain in- 
 formation got — and when I began to consider this I 
 discovered that we have been in the habit of entering 
 a man's occupation if he was a labourer, simply as 
 such, without discriminating between the different 
 kinds, i.e., paying no' heed to whether he was employed 
 at the docks or in a foundry, or warehouse or else- 
 where, and every kind of labourer is here grouped 
 together. 
 
 4298. Is that due to the fact that perhaps people 
 of poor constitution would take up the poorer paid 
 occfupations that would be considered general and 
 undefined ? — ^Partly that ; and I may mention that 
 in the case of those forming this group you have a 
 good deal of drinking and irregular employment. 
 
 4299. It would be put down rather to the physique of 
 the men and their habits than toi the nature of the 
 employment. Would you say this was a more dan- 
 gerous employment than brick and cement making? — 
 No, but rather this, that the workers drift into it 
 from their physique and inefficiency. 
 
 4300. That is, that it is not due so much to the 
 nature of the employment as to the nature of the 
 men ? — Probably to tiie character of the men ; but I 
 take it that the inefficient men drift into it. 
 
 4301. In other words, if you had men of such phy- 
 sique as are employed in some other employment and 
 then put them here, you would find that the number 
 would go down? — ^Yes. 
 
 4302. It is not the nature of the work they do so 
 much as the habits of the man ? — I think so. 
 
 4303. So there is not much to be got out of that 
 figure 80 far as industrial occupation is concerned? — 
 That is so ; but the unskilled labourer is irregular in 
 his employment, and that tends to other irregularities, 
 the result of which is shown in the figure here given. 
 
 4304. You would probably be able to say that brick- 
 making was not such a healthy employment as some of 
 the others ? — Yes ; the comparative mortality figuife 
 for them is 1,332, and their death rates at the four 
 age periods are 13, 18, 44, and 42 as against 8, 14, 
 25, and 47. (See Table VII. Appendix.) 
 
 4305. Have you the phthisis figures ?■ — Yes. 
 
 4306. Would not it be rather valuable to iiave the 
 phthisis figures shown here — the phthisis figures out 
 of the employment? — Yes. They are in Table VIII., 
 and show rates of 3'5, 5'09, 16"3, and 3'5 per 1,000, 
 against 2'6, 3"4, 3'8, and 2"6 for corresponding ages 
 of " all males." 
 
 4308. But could you say straight off from memory 
 that in any one of those occupations you have put 
 down there is an abnormally high phthisis figure? — 
 On page 6 of the first statement (now Table VIII. 
 Appendix) I have produced the death rate for phthisis 
 for several occupations. 
 
 4309. Which is the worsT?— The textiles, and brick 
 and cement workers. 
 
136 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. K. 
 
 Chalmers, 
 
 M.D., D.l'.n 
 
 16 Jan. I'.iii; 
 
 4310. Is not the figure for general and undefined 
 workers the highest ? — Yes ; but I have explained how 
 this figure was obtained in dealing with this group. 
 
 4311. That pixjbably is due to exposure to bad 
 weather, exposure to wet ? — Well, that is one cause, 
 exposure to all the causes we were discussing in con- 
 nection with this table of mortality figures for severs" 
 groups of occupations. 
 
 4312. (Dr. Legge.) Isn't it the same there, too, that 
 in that class also it is much the higher? — Yes, it is 
 much the higher. 
 
 4313. (Chairman.) The brick and cement workers 
 seem the worst ; at twenty-five years of age, the figures 
 are not large, but when yon get to forty-five years of 
 age, the figures are very high? — Of course there is 
 Co be kept in recollection that the total figures dealt 
 n'ith in that particular group are not very large. 
 
 4314. But still, look how it rises, at twenty-five it is 
 'hree, at thirty-five it rises to five, and at forty-five it 
 becomes sixteen? — Yes, that is true. 
 
 4315. It looks as if in the brick and cement trade 
 there was some form of phthisis which began to develop 
 about forty yeare of age ? — Yes, if the figures were 
 established in other observations. 
 
 4316. Have you of late shown any distinction between 
 fibroid phthisis and ordinary phthisis ? — That does not 
 appear in the Registrar's returns, and it does not 
 appear, so far as I can make out in the deaths re- 
 turned, in any of the large infirmaries in Glasgow. 
 
 4317. Have you any materials from which you can 
 give us an idea of the propottion of ordinary phthisis 
 as compared with fibroid phthisis in these trades ? — No, 
 We have no figures that would illuminate that phase 
 of it at all. You see I must deal wholly with the 
 causes as registered, I have no means of getting be- 
 hind that. 
 
 (Chairman.) It looks queer that this figure, viz., 
 sixteen, conies in at the very critical period of forty 
 years of age. 
 
 (Professor Allhwtt.) It would be better to ask Pro- 
 fessor Muir about that; he would be able to go into 
 the detail of the subject better, because, as Dr. Chal- 
 mers says, he himself does not get behind the Regis- 
 trar's returns. 
 
 4318. (Chairman.) What are the chief trades of Glas- 
 gow, as regards nuinbers employed, what are the staple 
 trades ? — Quoting from the Registrar-General's enumer- 
 ation of occupations, I imagine the group of metal 
 workers generally. 
 
 4319. What sort of metal working will that be? — 
 Well, it includes pig iron manufacture and steel smelt- 
 ing. 
 
 4320. Are there any particular industrial diseases 
 characteristic of that pig iron industry? — So far as 
 there is any evidence, I take it that that comparative 
 mortality figure for the metal workers indicates that 
 they are rather better tlian the all-male average. 
 
 4321. There are no very alarming figures, as to the 
 industrial diseases in the case of those men ? — No, they 
 have a lower death rate than all males, and a lower 
 phthisis rate, and a lower rate in other respiratory 
 diseases. 
 
 4322. And that may be considered distinctly satis- 
 factory ? — I think so. 
 
 4323. What is the nest employment in males, apart 
 from crude metal making ?— Well, it includes iron 
 founders and brass founders. 
 
 4324. Have you got brass casting, is there a good 
 lot of them here .'' — I am endeavouring to read that into 
 the figures here, but I do not think it is possible. I 
 really do not know. 
 
 4325. Have you reason to think there is any great 
 mortality or disease amongst brass founders.'' — I am not 
 aware. 
 
 4326. Is there metal grinding to any extent done — 
 metal grinding and polishing P — No. 
 
 4327. Agricultural instrument making ? — There is no 
 agricultural instrument making, but there must be 
 certain polishing. I have seen polishing occasionally. 
 
 4328. Not very much, not as much as in Birming- 
 ham ? — No. 
 
 4329. Do you make bicycles here to any extent? — 
 Yes, but to what extent I do not know. 
 
 4330. There will be metal grinding and poliehino'? 
 
 Yes, I imagine that there must be a good deal of 
 metal polishing in several industries, but I have not 
 evc-en much. 
 
 4331. Does that exhaust the divisions of the metal 
 trade in Glasgow ? — Yes, it practically does ; of coui-se 
 engineering and blacksmith workers are also included. 
 
 4332. But they are rather healthy trades ? — Yes, they 
 are included, however, in that one group. 
 
 4333. The next is the textiles ? — Yes. 
 
 4334. Is there any ground for thinking that there is 
 phthisis amongst textile workers here to an abnormal 
 extent ; in Table VIII. you get rather higher figures 
 5.9, and when you get over forty-five years of age the- 
 pht-hisis increases rather? — The death rate for tex- 
 tiles is higher at each age period. 
 
 4335. And in the later periods it is particularly 
 higher from phthisis? — Yes, it is much above the 
 average ; at sixty-five it is 5, as compared with 2— that 
 is twice the rate of all males. 
 
 4336. Does that leadi one to think that there are 
 some industrial causes at work in producing that 
 higher phthisis death rate amongst textile workers over 
 forty years of age? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 4337. The phthisis in the earlier age is not abnormal 
 in textile workers ? — Yes, it is 3,6 against 2.6 at 
 twenty-five. 
 
 4338. Then, it becomes higher still ? — Yes, 5.7 against 
 3.4 at the age of thirty-five. It is still 5.9 against 
 3.8 at forty-five. 
 
 4339. Would you call these rather alarming figures- 
 or not very alarming ? — Well, these are in excess of the- 
 average population, and in excess of the average even 
 for males at these ages, but I dO' not think they are 
 nearly so excessive as will be found in other industrial 
 places. 
 
 4340. Do you put that down to their breathing dust 
 or dampness; is there much humid cotton spinning? — 
 No, but whether it is present or not I am not quite- 
 aware, 
 
 4341. Can you give us the principal textile indus-- 
 tries ? — Not in any detail. 
 
 4342. Is there any flax here? — Only twenty-two- 
 people are employed in connection with flax alto- 
 gether. There is a certain number employed in con- 
 nection with wool and worsted — about 300. There is a 
 small number employed in connection with silk, hemp, 
 and jute. They are all relatively small, the total being 
 9,000 altogether. 
 
 4343. There is nothing to show that phthisis is 
 specially met with in carding, for instance? — No, the- 
 number is sO' small — only about eight. 
 
 4344. Then, if carding was dangerous, it would be a- 
 very small proportion of the whole ? — Yes. 
 
 4345. Then, I may take it generally that the views 
 you have been able to form from these statistics you 
 have collected are, that the industrial conditions of 
 Glasgow seem upon the whole to be good as compared 
 generally with the country ? — Yes, that is the impi-ee-- 
 sion one forms, if there is any excessive predispositioit^' 
 to particular diseases it does not appear certainly her^ 
 
 4346. There is no special industrial disease that 
 marks it out clearly as very noteworthy apparently ?— 
 No, there is no special disease that comes to' the sur- 
 face in handling the returns of deaths. 
 
 4347. There is no disease that appears striking, and. 
 that would make one say, " This is a blot on Glasgow"? 
 — That is so, that is quite the impression on© gets 
 from these figures. 
 
 4348. (Professor Allhutt.) The only tiling I had in my 
 mind to ask was about the general undefined workers- 
 are the docks included in the city ? — Yes. 
 
 4349. Are there a large number of dock labourers ?"• 
 — There are 2,800 dock labourers. 
 
 4350. Is that a relatively large number ? — There are- 
 38,000 persons in that group in which they are in- 
 cluded, which is "conveyance." 
 
 4351. Then it is rather a small number ?— Yes. 
 
 4352. Have you any knowledge as to the preivalenc*- 
 of heart disease among the dock labourers, or men em- 
 ployed in poiterage? — No. 
 
 4353. (Dr. Legge.) Are these figures you have pre- 
 pared for us got out from certified copies of the death 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 137 
 
 certificates of the Registrars ? — ^These two dealing with 
 the death rates from 1870 are from the Registrar- 
 Greneral's deaths uncorrected. On ibhe otiher band, the 
 figures on which the oompaitaitive mortality figure is 
 baaed and these tables which are in the statement I 
 have produced are quqted from my corrected informa- 
 tion. 
 
 4354. But it is from these certified copies of the 
 death certificates you get the occupation? — Yea. 
 
 4355. Do you have to pay the Registrar for that 
 information? — Yes, twopence per copy. In addition 
 to the information we have from the Registrar, there 
 has been a card system of recording the deaths in 
 Glasgow for quite thirty years. 
 
 4356. An ordinary Medical Officer of Health does 
 not necessarily get the information as to the occupa- 
 tions ? — No. 
 
 4357. You have a number of cbemical workers in 
 Glasgow ? — Yes. 
 
 4358. Alkali works ?— Yes. j^^, ^. ^ 
 
 4359. Employing some thousands of male workers %— J^'^%% 
 I could not offer any opinion as to the numbers they ' '' ' ' ' 
 ^^Vloj. 16 j^j, 1907^ 
 
 4360. Do you include Rutherglen? — No. 
 
 4361. What would you say about chemical workers 
 in this comparative table of figures ?— Chemical 
 workers are few. 
 
 4362. The deaths of chemical workers are few? — I 
 mean the number ; there are 3,000 persons engaged 
 in chemical works, soap works, saltmakers' works, 
 and manufacturing chemists — there are not many alto- 
 gether. 
 
 4363. Your attention has not been called to any par- 
 ticular diseases on the death certificates of chemical 
 workers? — No, not in connection with the chemical 
 workers here. 
 
 Professor John Giaistee, m.d., called and Examined. 
 
 4364. (Chairman.) You are a Doctor of Medicine of 
 the Univearsity of Glasgow ; a Eellow of the Faoolty 
 of Physicians and Surgeons d Glasgow, of whicH 
 at present you are Vice-President ; a Licentiate of the 
 Royal College of Physicians, and a Licentiate of the 
 Eoyal College of Surgeons, both of Edinburgh ; a 
 Diplomat© in Public Health! of the University of Cam- 
 bridge ; a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh ; 
 a Fellow of the Chemical Society ; a Fellow of the 
 Royal Sanitary Institute; and a Fellow of the Royal 
 Institute of Public Health?— Yes. 
 
 4365. You are Regius Professor of Forensic Medi- 
 cine and Puiblic Health in the University of Glasgow ? 
 
 —Yee. 
 
 4366. You have been in practice in Glasgow for 
 thirty years ?^-Yes. 
 
 4367. And during that time you have had an oppor- 
 tunity of taking an interest in and observing diseases 
 of trades and oocupations ? — Yes, I have been much 
 interested in them all the time. 
 
 4368. And during twenty of these years you were 
 resident at St. Rollox, a district of Glasgow? — ^Yes. 
 
 4369. In which there are several trades carried on? 
 — That is so. 
 
 4370. I think you have written some text books, 
 in which these subjects are more or less dealt with ? — 
 Yes, that is so. 
 
 4371. And you are able to give us evidence upon 
 the effects of the following substances on heaWi, 
 namely, ibleaidhing powder, chrome, and potters' dis- 
 ease — from the dust, I suppose, known as pottersi' rot ? 
 -Yes. 
 
 4372. Ammonium chloride, carbon monoxide, and 
 naphtha ? — Yes. 
 
 4373. We may take them in that order, so as not 
 to get them confused one with another ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4373*. Will you first give us any observations you 
 have to make upon sulphuric acid and bleaching pow- 
 der ; you might take these together ? — ^Yes, sulphur 
 fumes and bleaching powder. 
 
 4374. Or do you prefer to take them separately?— 
 They ought to be quite separate, ibecause tie one is 
 chlorine and the other is sul'phurous acid practically. 
 
 4375. We will take them in order ; take sulphurous 
 acid ?— .Sulphuric acid is not an irritant unless it is 
 the strong sulphuric acid. It is tihe sulphurous' add 
 that is -Qie most irritant. Sulphurous acid has the 
 chemical formula of SO^, one molecule of sulphur with 
 two molecules of oxygen. S0= is obtained by burning 
 sulphur, and the fumes which form are those which 
 are given off from the burning of a sulphur match. 
 The old sulphur matdhes will be remembered ; the 
 pungent odour that is given off from the burning 
 of an old sulphur match is sulphurous acid, and that 
 gives rise to the irritation of the respiratory passages. 
 
 4375*. What are the effects of that irritation; in 
 all the effects you are going to give us you will kindly 
 distinguish between the immediate effects and the per- 
 manent effects? — ^Yes. 
 
 4376. Because I wk>uld like to explain that they may 
 be considered in the one case as of the nature of an 
 
 419 
 
 accadent, and in the other as a poison or disease; 
 you wiU distinguish between the sudden effects and 
 the chronic results ? — Yes, I happen to know about 
 the chronic effects, because while I was in that district 
 men employed in these works required to be put on the 
 society for illness allowance, and the illness from 
 which they suffered was periodical more or less every 
 winter. I may explain that I was associated with 
 some of these works as medical officer, and I was 
 interested medically over and above that. 
 
 4377. How many years ago? — About fifteen or 
 eighteen years ago. The clhronic effect of sulphurous 
 acid was to produce chronic bronchitis, beginning fixst 
 of all as a winteir oough. The earliest manifeetaition 
 of the symptoms was a winter cough, w'hich usually 
 repeated itself each winter, gradually gaining in 
 severity, until eventually the persons were almost 
 never without a oough and difficulty in breathing. 
 The men became prematurely old, and were unfit for 
 work by the time they reached about fifty years or 
 age. These were the effects of sulphurous acid — 
 chronic effects. 
 
 4378. Was that aggravated in any way by intem- 
 perate habits on the part of these men ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 4379. And perhaps their intemperate habits were, 
 tO' a certain extent, brought on by the irritation? — ■ 
 Well, sometimes the depressing character of their 
 occupation compelled them to take stimulants. 
 
 4380. When you speak of the depressing character, 
 do you mean depression was produced by the chemical 
 itself, or by the feeling that they were getting ill? — 
 The feeling that they were getting ill. It is a curious 
 thing with regard to certain of these gaseous materials 
 that they produce a dispiriting effect on the persons 
 exposed to them, and these persons are liable to take 
 stimulants to overcome this, as they think, which 
 habits are inclined to gain on them, and they become 
 intemperate. 
 
 4380*. They drink more? — They drink more than 
 they intend. 
 
 4381. They drink more than the ordinary workmen 
 drink?— Yes. , „ . . 
 
 4382. Was this bronchitis distinguishable in its 
 character from the bronchitis that an ordinary man 
 might get in any occupation ? — 1 do not think so. 
 
 4383. Clinically it is indistinguishable ?— That is so. 
 This bronchitis is noticed by a series of effects, and 
 when it is chronic it leads to an inflammatory con- 
 dition of the bronchial tubes, and when the man goes 
 
 to the physician it is impossible for him to say 
 whether it is caused by sulphurous acid, or hydrochloric 
 acid, or is an ordinary inflammatory condition; it is 
 simply the presence of the irritating gas. 
 
 4384. The only reason you concluded this must be 
 the cause was because rather an abnormal number of 
 these men were attacked ; there was more of the bron- 
 chitis about than there ought to be ?— Yes, and I can 
 speak from personal experience. I visited these places 
 in order to see what the atmosphere was like, _ and I 
 could not have stood in the atmosphere for two minutes. 
 A fit of coughing was brought on by reason of the acid, 
 and I had to clear out. 
 
 4385. Have you seen the works lately ?— No, not since 
 
 S 
 
 Professor 
 T. Glaiater, 
 
 M.D. 
 
138 
 
 MINUTES OF evidence; 
 
 Profetsor twelve years ago— not this particular work. I have 
 J. Glaitter, Been some works since, but not this particular kind 
 M.D. of work. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 4386. You are not aware whether they have been 
 putting in fans and ventilators ? — No, but if they have 
 that would very much improve the conditions. 
 
 4387. (Professor Allbutf.) I suppose you could not 
 form any approximate notion of the degree of it ; would 
 it affect 60 or 70 per cent, of the men? — I would say 
 that practically 70 per cent, would be more or less 
 afEected, and of that 70 per cent, possibly a third would 
 be much more affected by reason of their habits than 
 the rest of the men were — the men who were reason- 
 ably careful of themselves. These men would be dis- 
 abled by the time they got to fifty-five or sixty years 
 of age— disabled from any employment. 
 
 4388. There is nothing like a definite immunity to 
 be established? — There cannot be, because of the con- 
 stant exposure ; it is a question of a delicate mucous 
 membrane being exposed to constant shocks. 
 
 4389. Are the atmospheric conditions bad ? — No, I do 
 not think it is that, but if there was more draught 
 there would be less mischief from the cause. 
 
 4390. Supposing we had to regard these men as in 
 some degree the victims of alcohol, apart' from the sul- 
 phurous acid, should we not rather expect the alcohol to 
 injure them in a different way ? — Alcohol would not 
 affect them from the point of view of bronchitis at all, 
 except they were in the habit of living out at night after 
 a drinking bout, when they might contract cold, but 
 thait is comparatively uncommon. I wa« police surgeon 
 in the same neighbourhood for twenty years and I 
 have a fairly good knowledge of the habits of that 
 class in that district, and I can say they were not in 
 the habit of sleeping out at night. Alcohol would be 
 an aggravating cause in so far as it would induce bron- 
 chitis. 
 
 4391. Boes it produce dilation of the bronchial tubes ? 
 — Yes, possibly congestion of the lungs, enlargement 
 of the right heart, and eventually failure of the heart's 
 action. 
 
 4392. Is there much fibrosis ? — No, not in that condi- 
 tion. Thei-e is not so nnich mischief in the lungs them- 
 selves to cause fibrosis. 
 
 4393. In what industry do you find this sulphurous 
 acid ? — ^In making sulphuric acid. 
 
 4394. The roasting of the pyrites ? — Making the sul- 
 phuric acid by the burning of the sulphur. 
 
 4395. {Chairman.) Now, w© will pass to the making 
 of bleaching powder P — Well, the conditions, of course, 
 in bleaching powder are practically identical with those 
 in the making of sulphurous acid. The chlorine and 
 the hydirochloric acid fumes are most irritating. I 
 believe, if anything, chlorine is much more irritating 
 than sulphurous acid, and it has a strong effect on the 
 teeth of the men. The effect is very rapid. In that 
 work I have in my mind, the teeth of the men wea'e 
 rapidly affected by the chlorine, and they had the lung 
 symptoms coming on in the same sequence and order 
 and circumstances as in the case of sulphurous acid. 
 
 4396. What did that bi-ing on principally ? — Bron- 
 chitis. 
 
 4397. And the remarks you have made with regard 
 to bronchitis in the case of sulphurous acid would 
 apply to chlorine ? — Yes. 
 
 4398. Is alcohol used as a cure to a man overcome 
 with chlorine fumes ? — Oh, yes, there are some remark- 
 able cures among these men. There used to be a very 
 common cure ; if a man got " gassed' " they very often 
 etuck him down on his face, so that he was supposed 
 to inhale the air from the ground, which was sup- 
 posed to cure him, and they always applied the alcohol 
 because it was a natural cure for any kind of sickness. 
 
 4399. Can you say that about the same number were 
 affected — 60 or 70 per cent. ? — About the same approxi- 
 mately, so far as my observations have gone. 
 
 4400. (Professor AllhuU.) And the ultimate patholo- 
 gical results were precisely the same? — Yes. 
 
 4401. (Br. Legge.) Would you describe the way in 
 which the teeth got affected? — My impression is that 
 the teeth got affected simply by the absorption of 
 hydrochloric acid fumes in the mouth during the 
 working. The chlorine fumes become dissolved in the 
 salivia; they become acid in consequence, and very 
 often these men wore a cloth, and that, I think, parti- 
 
 cularly with the acid character of the saliva attacked 
 the dentine. 
 
 4402. In explosive factories in which there are 
 nitrous fumes the teeth get affected just in proportion 
 as the mouth is opened during speaking or breathing, 
 and the incisors get eaten away? — I coiild not say, 
 from my obsei-vations, how much that applies merely to 
 incisoi-B ; that is what makes me think it is the saliva 
 more than anything else. 
 
 4403. Does that produce pain? — They have to get 
 them taken out, they go to the surgeon. 
 
 4404. It leads to incapacity for work ? — No, the man 
 gets his teeth pulled and goes bock the same day to 
 work. There was an old surgeon there to a chemical 
 work for twenty-five years, whose work I did when he 
 was ill, and he had a vei-y rough and ready method of 
 pulling' these men's teeth. They were big tall men, 
 and they came regularly every morning — a dozen or two 
 — to get a tooth pulled. 
 
 4405. Are the majority of these men toothless? — A 
 great many are without teeth. 
 
 4406. At what age ? — By the time a man has been 
 half a dozen years in a chemical factory of that kind 
 he has lost, I should think, double that number of 
 teeth, or they have become much diseased. 
 
 4407. Do you know of any other industry where the 
 teeth get affected in the same proportion in that way, 
 or in any other way f — In mercury works you get the 
 loss of teeth from another cause. 
 
 4408. But you do not get it from sulphurous acid? 
 
 I have not noticed it so much from sulphurous acid, 
 because sulphurous acid is not nearly so corrosive as 
 hydrochloric. If you mix sulphurous acid with 
 water it does not form the corrosive fluid that hydro- 
 chloric acid forms when dissolved. I have tried to 
 reason it out in this way, that it was by reason of the 
 great increase of corrosive matter in hydro-chloric acid.- 
 
 4409. And it is an inevitable result? — In my experi- 
 ence, I have attributed it solely to that. 
 
 4410. (Chairman.) We will pass from that now to the 
 chrome ? — Yes, there was only one chrome work in the 
 neighbourhood, and I had the opportunity of observing 
 some of the men, and my impression from observation ol 
 these people was that several men — I cannot say how 
 many, because I had not personal charge of them all- 
 suffered from erosion of the nasal septum, and suffered 
 from perforation. Most of them during the time they 
 were there were liable to have chrome holes in their 
 fingers. If they had the least ulceration, or any acci- 
 dental wounds, these chrome holes formed deeply, and 
 almo6t bared the bone. The men were inclined to attri- 
 bute both of these things, the perforation and the 
 chrome holes, to the inhaling of the chrome acid or tie 
 bichromate potash powder into the nostrils, and to the 
 handlina of the powder or the acid by the hands, and 
 the material in which they worked. 
 
 4411. It was mostly in dyeing black that that chrome 
 was used?— This was simply a manufacture of biohro- 
 maite of potash, it was making the material itself before 
 distribution. 
 
 4412. Does that produce a permanent illness — ^these 
 chrome erosions — or does it cure again? — It cures; you 
 get it commonly among men working who have had their 
 chrome holes and have gone back to work shortly after- 
 wards. It incapacitates them merely for a short time. 
 It may keep them off for a few weeks, but not for any 
 length of time, and I personally have hot seen any con- 
 stitutional effects from working in chrome factories. 
 
 4413. We have had the same effects elsewhere, we 
 have heard about dye works where they have been 
 using chrome? — Yes. 
 
 4414. (Dr. Legge.) Do you know the principal worifl 
 where the bichromate is made ? — ^No, it is on the sowtJi 
 side of the river ; it is very much the largest one, 
 
 4415. Do you remember the duration of the iUn«* 
 these chrome holes on the fingers entailed ? — I have had 
 them under care for three or four weeks. 
 
 4416. It is very intractable ?— Difficult to heaJ. 
 
 4417. And the perforation of the septum ?— It varies. 
 
 4418. Does that lead to abstention from work at all 
 in your experience ?— Well, I advised the men to abj 
 stain from work during the process — while the material 
 forming the perforation was gradually being remoM 
 just to prevent repeated sources of irritation. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 139 
 
 4419. Have you any knowledge of anything that would 
 prevent that? — No, except plugging the nostrils with 
 cotton wadding, hut I would hardly expect the work- 
 men to do that, according to my experience. 
 
 4420. Periodical examination of the workers would 
 loake chixime holes tractable? — Yes, I think, if there 
 was periodical medical inspection of such works as 
 chrome works you could vei-y materially limit the mis- 
 chief therefrom. 
 
 4421. Do you think there is much danger of malinger- 
 ing from this perforation of the septum, that a, man 
 might say he was unfitted for work because this ulcera- 
 tion was going on inside his septum ? — I think a man 
 with medical experience would be able to say with re- 
 gard to any ordinary man whether he was malingering 
 or not. There would no doubt he cases of attempted 
 malingering. 
 
 4422. But at present, while this process of ulcera- 
 tion is going on it does not lead to necessary abstention 
 from work ? — No. 
 
 4423. Have you ever known men who had perfora- 
 tion of the septum of the nose without knowing that 
 they had it? — No, I think the men all know. I have 
 some statistics here which the Committee might like to 
 have in regard to chrome. They are not my own, but 
 I thought they would be of assistance to the Com- 
 mittee. They are observations made on 257 persons 
 working in chrome works. 
 
 4424. When were they made ? — In 1901. 
 4424*. And by whom ? — Hermann of Germany. 
 
 4425. Are these tO' be found in some Gei-man publica- 
 tion? — In a German journal. I thought you might 
 want them if you have not got them. 
 
 4426. You might state the general effect? — They 
 are very short, and I can read them. Hermann 
 affirms that chix>mio acid and the chromates 
 exercise prejudicial action both directly and indirectly ; 
 directly, by producing nose and skin lesions, and in- 
 directly, by causing lesions or affections of stomach, 
 respiratory tract, and kidneys. Of seventy-seven 
 workers employed for not longer than one month thirty- 
 four remained healUiy, thirty-two had nasal abscess, 
 and only one perforation. Of thirty-nine who had 
 worked longer than three and less than six months, two 
 were healthy, fourteen had abscess, and twenty-three 
 perforation. Of thirty-one who had worked for moiw 
 than a year none were healthy, seven had abscess, and 
 twenty-four had perforation. 
 
 4427. What is the general conclusion to be drawn ? — 
 From these figures it would appear that six months' 
 employment in a chrome work is likely to lead to nasal 
 eeptiim perforation in the bulk of those, employed. 
 
 4428. That would be very easy to verify by going to 
 chrome works ; you could see whether our ex- 
 perience is the same as that of the Germans? 
 —Yes, that could be easily done if you could 
 get all the men who had been six months in the employ- 
 ment and compared them with those who had not been 
 BO long. 
 
 4429. You do not know whether these men who have 
 perforation do, as a matter of fact, absent themselves 
 from work ? — ^I cannot say further than this, that when 
 men came tO' me with perforation I said they must 
 abstain from work, for if they went to work they ex- 
 posed their already tender mucous membrane to. fur- 
 ther irritation by this mischief, and th'at they would 
 do well to abstain for a while. 
 
 4430. In your opinion this could be prevesited by 
 plugging the nostrils with cotton wool? — ^Yes, very 
 largely, just as in certain other occupations you can 
 largely prevent the necessary deafness that follows by 
 wearing air plugs. 
 
 4430*. If the Worikmein's Oomipensation Act con- 
 tained a provision that workmen who brought on the 
 disease by wilfully neglecting some precautions would 
 lose their conipensation, it might become a question 
 here whether it would not be the men's own 
 fault if they got this disease— if they neglected 
 the precaution of plugging their noses with 
 wool? — I am perfectly certain it is due to their own 
 fault; judging from my experience and observation in 
 these works I am bound to say I have no high concep- 
 tion of the care these men exercise with regard to the 
 condition of their bodies. In connection with a pottery 
 where I was asked by the employers to take care of the 
 health of their workmen from all points of view, I 
 discovered an outbimk of lead p«^soning in the work, 
 
 419. 
 
 / 
 
 and I said you must do so-and-so and so-and-so — 
 directed practically all the conditions laid down. 
 
 4431. You might mention these?— I said to the em- 
 ployers, " You must provide wash-hand basins, overalls, 
 Boap, and towels for all the men employed in the dip- 
 ping establishmetnt ; you must provide lemonade — that 
 is, sulphuric acid and water, and in the wash place 
 you must have nail brushes, and prohibit any men 
 from taking their food inside." 
 
 4432. This was fifteen years ago? — Yes, fifteen or 
 twenty years ago, before these things were required by 
 special rule. I did that, and the workmen enthusias- 
 tically did it for a fortnight, and then " chucked " the 
 whole thing aside and paid no more attention. 
 
 4433. {Chairman.) We will passi now to potters' rot ; 
 again you are giving us the experience of some years 
 agoi ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4434. It is well we should distinguish it, because so 
 much has been done since then ? — That I understand. 
 Well, I was going to say that even in the case of potters 
 I could not say that the mischief, so far as the lung 
 conditions are conceroed — that even at the same time 
 of which I am speaking there was as much mischief 
 done in the potters' work with which I was familiar 
 as there was in the chemical works. I came across 
 fewer cases of chronic fibroid phthisis in the potters' 
 work than I found of chronic bronchitis in the chemical 
 works, where there was sulphurous acid and hydro- 
 chloric acid. 
 
 4435. You call it fibroid phthisis ? — Yes. 
 
 4436. Was that potters' rot thoroughly distinguish- 
 able from tuberculous phthisis? — Yes, I would say it 
 is distinctly so. I did not find the prevalence of the 
 lung conditions so great in potters' mischief as I did 
 in chemical mischief. 
 
 4437. That is, that the lungs, in whatever way they 
 were affected, were not affected so much 1 — I mean that. 
 
 4438. You say it is quite easy to distinguish between 
 fibroid phthisis and tuberculous phthisis ? — Yes, I was 
 going to say that I have only once or twice seen acute 
 grinders' rot, such as in steel grinders for instance. 
 There is acute steel grinders' rot, and in the chronic 
 form of it it usually takes the fibroid character — a slow 
 gradually forming congestion of the lung in its upper 
 part, with <lJiated bronchial tubes, and sometimes large 
 sputa in the morning. 
 
 4439. But could you distinguish that as a medical man 
 called in, supposing you did not know the occupation 
 that a mam had been engaged in ? — I could say this, 
 that the chances were the man had been employed in 
 some occupation where there was some foreign material 
 inhaled during the process of his employment, but I 
 could not descant on his employment. 
 
 4440. But you can tell the difference in the early 
 stages between fibroid phthisis and tuberculous 
 phthisis ? — No, not in the early stages ; it must have 
 become distinctly chronic before we can distinguish, 
 because in the early stages the symptoms are precisely 
 like those of tuberculous manifestation 
 
 4441. What is the first symptom that begins to dif- 
 ferentiate the disease ? — You get some degree of con- 
 solidation, not so marked as in tubercular disease. 
 You get it by percussion — by sound. You can detect 
 it as a dulness in tone ; the breathing becomes more 
 and more tubular — more tubular than vesicular. There 
 is a wheezing, moist sound inside the lung that should 
 not be there, showing that there is some irritation or 
 mischief. 
 
 4442. To put the question from another point of view, 
 supposing the third schedule of the Act of Parliament 
 provided that fibroid phthisis cases should be com- 
 pensated, but not tubercular cases, would there be a 
 very great difficulty in administering that — in medical 
 men being able to distinguish between a potter who 
 had got common consumption from some other cause 
 not connected with his work and a potter who had 
 got fibroid phthisis ? — Clinically there might ; there 
 would be none, provided an examination of the sputum 
 for tubercle bacillus was made. 
 
 4443. You could be sure then ? — ^Yes, you could ex- 
 amine the sputum for the presence or absence of the 
 bacillus. 
 
 4444. But could you not have a combination of the 
 tuberculous phthisis and fibroid phthisis ; might not 
 fibroid phthisis have superimposed upon it tuberculoas 
 phthisis ; you get the tuberculous and yet it would be 
 caused after all by potters' rot ? — Yes, but you are not 
 
 s 2 
 
 Pro/e»sor 
 J,- Qlaister, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
1-10 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 p-ofessur ^i'^^'y ^^ S** tuterciilar mischief starting so readily in 
 
 J 'lister ^" eldoily person as in a young person. That is, the 
 
 M D. ' immunity to phthisis increases as age advances, and 
 
 ' when you get to forty-five or fifty years of age, when 
 
 IQ Jan. 1907. this thing begins to show any alteration men are get- 
 
 ting more and more out of the reaoh of phthisis, and 
 
 mo're into fibroid mischief, and then your clinicai test 
 as to the presence or ab'sence of bacillus would make it 
 clear. 
 
 4445. Then, acoording to you, difficulty of adminis- 
 tration ought not to stand in the way of classifying 
 fibroid phthisis as a thing that should be compensated 
 for, and diagnosed with a fair degree of certainty ? — 
 No, I would not say. Tlhe question of administration is 
 a very particular thing, but I say if it could be worked. 
 
 4446. Would you undertake, as a medical man, to say 
 that you sihould be able in any particular works to 
 pick out the men who were affected by fibroid phthisis 
 and put them aside for compensation and that you 
 should be able to pick out the others who ought not to 
 be oonsidered as having phthisis through their occupa^ 
 tion? — ^I would go the length of saying that in these 
 days when diagnosis of huig conditions by examination 
 of the sputum for bacilli is so common and so rela- 
 tively easy, that there is less difficulty now in diagnos- 
 ing than there was. ten years ago. 
 
 4447. But would there be an insuperable difficulty at 
 present, would it be very difficult at present to do that 
 —to tell whether in the case of any particular man, 
 with a reasonable degree of certainty, he caught hia 
 phthisis through his occupation or from some other 
 cause? — I should say there should be no reasonable 
 difficulty when you come to a man of forty-five years 
 of age to say that that man probably took his disease 
 from the fact of his occupation. 
 
 4448. At earlier ages there would be difficulty ?— 
 Yes, there might 'be mtore difficulty, but wthen you come 
 to forty-five years of age there should be no reasonaJble 
 diffioulity in applying these tests. 
 
 4449. Particularly if you had an appeal from a 
 medical certifying surgeon to a special surgeon in cased 
 of difficulty ? — -Yes. I am bound to say that I think 
 many medical men who do not now cultivate methods 
 of biacteriological work would readily do it if they had 
 
 to do it. 
 
 4550. And you mean that the necessity of administer- 
 . iiig a provision like this would call intO' play greater 
 care and observation, and make it easier and easier to 
 deal with reasonable fairness as between masters and 
 men? — Yes, I think an Act like this would go a con- 
 siderable way in making these medical men com- 
 pulsorily familiar with the work they had to do. 
 
 4451. I suppose you are not able to say whether pot- 
 ters' rot is on the decrease or not since the days you 
 saw these men ? — ^No, I cannot speak of it ; of counse, I 
 Tinow what ihias been done as regards ventilation, and I 
 should say, looking to these statistics to-day that it 
 seems to be on ifche decrease, as it is bound to be with 
 ventilation conditions improved. 
 
 4452. (Professor AUbutt.) Do you think it probable 
 that in the large majority of cases, even where tubercle 
 mg,y have become a considerable secondary feature in 
 the case, that a distinction may still be made between 
 eases originally due to this bacillus and cases 
 primarily fibroid, and this of some standing? — I 
 believe in ordinary well-observed cases that would not 
 be difiicult. 
 
 4453. I am assuming we have all the facts we want ? 
 — Well, assuming that, it should not be difficult. I 
 would say this, that where a man has turned ill in a 
 vifork, and where it is a question of interest to him 
 whether he has got fibroid phthisis or not, naturally 
 the medical man would be asked to exaniine his 
 sputum, and there would therefore be instituted a 
 ■point of time when examination would or would not 
 reveal the presence of tubercular bacillus. 
 
 4454. I should like to put it even in a little more 
 searching way still. Let us assume that there raay 
 have been an insensible reception of the tubercle 
 bacillus at some comparatively early stage, which 
 would have gradually modified the course of the fibroid 
 phthisis ? — Would it not then become a question of 
 argument whether you may be dealing with a case ot 
 chronic tubercular phthisis ? 
 
 4455-6. My point was — here is a case : A is sent in 
 to be examined. Query : Is his case one of fibroid 
 phthisis or a case of tuberculous phthisis, or, again, 
 a case of fibroid phthisis plus the tuberculous bacillus? 
 
 I think, from examining thirty men, our impression 
 was that we could have made that diagnosis? — I am 
 not gainsaying the fact, and I am wanting to agree 
 with you, but I want to make my answer clear in 
 this way, that if it were put down in the Act that 
 fibroid phthisis would be subject to compensation, then 
 undoubtedly whenever a case arose after the Act was 
 passed, and that condition was laid down, you would 
 institute very many new rules for the observation of 
 these cases, and you would get new data, which would 
 at once clarify the situation. The men would say, 
 " You must examine my sputum." 
 
 4457. I think we cannot depend upon any one 
 element by itself. Supposing a case came under con- 
 troversy, I think our wider judgment must not be over- 
 ridden by a mere examination of the sputum? — My 
 difficulty is that if you are going to give such a case 
 compensation, unless it has been a chronic one, 
 and the tubercular does not seem to • be a 
 very great element in the case, you would 
 have difficulty in distinguishing in that case between 
 one and another. There are slow tubercular cases 
 from the very commencement. If you have a case with 
 a chronic lung condition not advancing far, with the 
 tubercular bacillus not making much difference on 
 the progress of the case, then I think you would be 
 warranted in thinking it was an original fibroid case. 
 
 4458. Yet I am more disposed to rely upon a broad 
 view of the whole clinical history and conditions than 
 upon any one co-efficient ? — Yes, I agree. 
 
 4459-60. The next point is this : Grinders have to 
 handle rather large objects ; is there anything in the 
 attitude of a grinder at work which would interfert 
 with the full expansion of his lungs ? — Yes, in my 
 opinion the muscular strain involved in holding the 
 article to be ground against the place of grinding com- 
 pels a rigidity of the muscles of the chest, and of the 
 chest walls, and impairs the respiratory functions. 
 
 4461. So that the discovery of impaired respiration 
 in a large number of those men does not at all neces- 
 sarily prove what is suggested, that they have a 
 certain incipient degree of fibrosis ? — No. If I had 
 these men before me the test I would apply in order to 
 satisfy myself whether there was really deficiency of 
 lung volume or power would be to put them on the 
 spirometer. 
 
 4452. But that also is a matter of practice very 
 much ? — Not at all ; you can test the ordinary person 
 by applying the spirometer, and if you took thirty of 
 them you would find the average very quickly. If you 
 took thirty of any other ordinary occupation and tried 
 the average where there was the same cramped atti- 
 tude, it would give the keynote of the situation. 
 
 4463. I have tried the spirometer in brass workers, 
 but I could not satisfy myself as to its usefulness, 
 but of course there wa« not the same difference there 
 as there would be with fibrosis of the lung? — No. 
 
 4464. We might have a considerable lower average? 
 — That is all I am asking you to get ; compare thirty 
 average men at dry steel grinding with thirty men 
 who are working at an occupation where the action 
 of the chest wall is untramelled and you will see a 
 difference, even in practised men. 
 
 4465. That would only go to p'rove your point of 
 the rigidity of the chest ?— Yes. 
 
 4466. But it would not satisfy us whether their 
 respiratory capacity was less? — Would it not? Sup- 
 posing you find thirty men had a large respiratory 
 capacity — total volume capacity. 
 
 4467. That might be due to their chest walls being 
 so fixed that they could not expand them? — ^Yes, but 
 would not that lower their total capacity, and would 
 that total lowered capacity not tend to render it more 
 vulnerable to inhalation of dry steel particles ? 
 
 4468. Yes, that is another point?— Yes, there are 
 two points involved. 
 
 4469. The next point is this, that in some of those 
 men the breathing was altered in quality ; it was dis- 
 tinctly harsh, there was prolonged expiration, and in 
 some, very few, there was an occasional wheeze; put- 
 ting these three together, you would say there was, 
 however incipient, fibrosis? — ^Yes. 
 
 4470. But ^before you got these changes it might be 
 mere chest fkture? — Yes, undoubtedly these three 
 signs indicated the primary stage leading on to some- 
 thing more. 
 
 4471. May we ask you this further question— though 
 it is a very difficult one to answer — supposing that a 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 141 
 
 anan. had got so far that there was something morbid 
 
 -about the respiration, and a certain harshness, do you 
 
 "think if that man were taken off that work entirely and 
 
 .put — ^let us say — on the land, that he would recover? 
 
 — Well, you indicated that it is very difficult, and I 
 
 - agree, but I have no doubt it can be answered generally 
 
 in this way, that there are certain cases in which, if you 
 
 removed men from a circumscribed environment of 
 
 work and poit them on the land, they will improve 
 
 almost from anything. 
 
 4472. I was thinking of the maai's lungs particu- 
 larly ?— I am speaking of that ; I have it in my mind ; 
 lie will recover from almost any condition of his lungs, 
 because that is what we are doing for phthisis nowa- 
 
 -days. "We give the patients lots of fresh air, and give 
 them some movement, increase of tonic action, arid 
 -they improve. 
 
 4473. It would be a very fair forecast that the man 
 would improve ? — Yes, there is a reasonable chance of 
 lis improvement. 
 
 4474. We want something more than a reasonable 
 •chance? — ^Yes, in order to give a better answer than 
 that one would require to know more in the way of 
 the question ; it has to be indefinite, but pnt it in 
 this way : . If I got a man in the state described to me 
 with a want of lung movement, a harshness of breath- 
 ing, a few dry rales, and a generally lowered tone of 
 treathing, the case would likely be improved by putting 
 him on the land. 
 
 4475. (Dr. Legge.) Perhaps you would not like to 
 say whether, in your opinion, fibrosis, of the lungs, 
 apart from tubercle, is necessarily fatal, or must, 
 apart from tubercle, be necessarily fatal ? — I have seen 
 cases of pure fibrosis where there has been no tubercle. 
 I examined by post-mortem the body of a man 
 on Monday, where the cause of death was another 
 ■cause altogether, but where there was marked fibrosis 
 
 at the apex of his left lung, and considerable fibrosis 
 of the upper portion of his right lung. That man 
 must have been employed at one time or other in one 
 or other of the works in Glasgow where gritty material 
 "had been in use. I could find that from my knife. I 
 could find out, I think, where the man had been 
 employed. I have seen many oases at post-mortem 
 examinations where there was fibroid phthisis, and 
 "there has been no tubercular evidence of any sort. 
 
 4476. On that point you are quite certain? — ^Yes. I 
 "have not yet mentioned that I am. Medical Legal 
 
 ■ Jlxaminer to the Ctown in Glasgow. I make all 
 
 ■ .posi-mortem exanminiations in connection with sudden 
 .-deaths and criminal deaths of all sorts, and I have to 
 
 •handle a igreaifc many bodies in that post-mortem work, 
 and I have seen what I have indicated — pure fibroid 
 cases without tubercular. 
 
 4477. I would like you to distinguish between the old 
 fibrosis of years' standing and one that was still in an 
 early stage ? — I cannot say I have seen cases ; I do not 
 think the case on Monday was one which would be 
 described as in an early stage ; the fibrous tissue was 
 there. 
 
 4478. But it was proigressive ? — It might be progres- 
 sive, but certainly the apex of the left lung was practi- 
 cally all fibro'Us tissue together, and there was no tuber- 
 cular at all. 
 
 4479. (Chairman.) You mean gritty — was that due to 
 particles of steel ? — I think it was silicious- matter ; it 
 might be sandstone, for all I know, he might have been 
 a mason. 
 
 4480. The microscope could have determined that ? — 
 Tes. The man happened to die from meningitis, and I 
 was not concerned with whether it was due to one cause 
 or the other. 
 
 4481. W© have been told that a man may work in a 
 dangerously gritty atmosphere for a great many years, 
 -and that as a rule the effects of such an atmosphere 
 
 do not become serious till he approaches forty years of 
 age ; would you agree with that ? — I would make a dif- 
 ferent statement altogether from that ; my point is that 
 it depends entirely on the habits of the man with regai-d 
 to hie breathing. If a man breathes through his nos- 
 trils that delays for a great many years the mischief 
 of inhalation. If he breathes through his mouth then 
 he gets directly into his lunge more rapidly the objec- 
 tionable material. My impression is that it depends 
 more on the habits of breathing than on the age, and of 
 course there are hereditary tendencies on the part of 
 people to take lung diseiases at earlier ages than others, 
 but I do not think the fixed age of forty is of much 
 
 moment, and I am saying that because I recollect a year 
 I spent among miners thirty-one years ago. I found 
 there that it did not depend on the age when a man 
 became attacked ; some were attacked earlier, and some 
 were never attacked at all. 
 
 4482. Was that rock dust P — No, ordinary coal-mining 
 dust. 
 
 4483. Is it your opinion that coal dust may cause 
 fibroid phthisis? — No, but it may produce bronchitis; 
 I never saw a case of fibroid phthisis from coal duet. 
 
 4484. An instance was given us by a workmen's doctor 
 who had been a good deal among the men, and he said 
 that as a .general rule a man did not begin to show- 
 fibroid phthisis to. a dangerous extent till he was 
 approaching thirty ; they would work for twenty years 
 in .the pit with a certain amount of illness during the 
 twenty yeans, but if they got fibroid phthisis the time it 
 generally developed itself waa when they were approach- 
 ing the age of forty ? — I could agi-ee with that, generally 
 in principle, it might be a suitable age to label it at 
 forty. Fo'rty to forty-five, I think, is the telling age 
 of a workman's life. 
 
 4485. W© asked this question, if a man at the age of 
 forty, when he was beginning to be attacked, had his 
 occupation completely changed, would h© be fit for any- 
 thing still for the rest of his life, and the answer w© 
 got was yes, he was inclined to. think so, that if the 
 man was taken away on the first outbreak of it at about 
 thirty-six years of age, and his occupation completely 
 chaji.ged, h© should probably live a good many years 
 afterwards ? — I have no doubt of that at all ; the great 
 economic diflB.culty is, that one© a man has learned an 
 employment and has become economically useful it is 
 not easy to learn a a^evr trad© and becom© ©conomically 
 as beneficial to himself. 
 
 4486. Now, w© might pass to a point that 
 wUl be interesting, and that we have not had 
 much ©vid©nce about — ammonium chloride ? — Well, of 
 oouns© the ©ff©cts of ammonium chloride are mostly ob- 
 ueiTabl© in gaIV:anising works, and I would like to put 
 down my views regarding ammonium chloride. "Tou 
 ar© familiar, of course, with the process of galvanising, 
 and the points I want to' emphasise are, first, yo.u have 
 got your zinc bath, which is at a temperature of about 
 1,500 degrees. 
 
 4487. Fahrenheit?— Yes. 
 
 4488. No, it would not be anything, like that, I sihould 
 not think it would be above 800 ? — Well, 800 would suit 
 my purpose; I do. not know exactly the temperature. 
 When you throw the ammonium chloride, as th© work- 
 man does, over th© surface of th© bath to. be rid of the 
 zinc oxid©, th©re are fumes arise. I have seen a man 
 throw it on just as the casting was being removed. 
 It really is not ammonium chlorid© that is given out, 
 it is a decomposition of the ammonium chloride into 
 ammonia and chlorine. You are not getting off what 
 you throw on, in other words. The heat of the bath 
 dissociates your ammonium chloride into ammonia and 
 chlorine. Ammonium chloride is a substance that throat 
 specialists give us to soothe our throats when we are ill 
 — ^the fumes of ammonium chloride. Now, obviously 
 what is meant here is th© effects of th© use of ammonium 
 chloride in certain trades. Well, in th© galvanising 
 trade perhaps what does happen is that you tbrow your 
 ammonium chloride on th© hot bath of zinc, and dis- 
 sociate your salt of 'a.mmonium chloride into ammonia 
 vapour and chlorine vapour. The effect of throwing the 
 ammonium chloride on th© zinc is. so in-itating to my 
 respiratory pasages that when I have been present when 
 it was don© I have had to leave the place. 
 
 4489. That would be easily tested by litmus paper ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4490. You feel quite certain about that dissociation ? 
 — I have not tested it chemically, they do not allow you 
 to. make experiments. 
 
 4491. And you suggest that that is the reason why 
 th© ventilators abo.ve rust so extremely rapidly ? — 
 Yes, and it is why I find in galvanising works 
 that they are not in operatio.n ; when I go. to these 
 places most of th© ventilating apparatus is not work- 
 ing ; it is not fit to work, it hae gone to pieces. 
 
 4492. Would not it be possible to add some other 
 chemical, such as lime, or something of that sort, on 
 th© surface of th© bath to take off the chlorine ; would 
 lim© absorb th© chlorine as fast as it was formed? — 
 There is great difficulty there ; there is a lay©r of zinc 
 oxide formed, and that would look objectionable on a 
 new casting which was newly galvanised. At the 
 
 Pro/esior 
 
 J. Glaister, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
142 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK : 
 
 Professor 
 J. Glaister, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907, 
 
 moment of their taking the casting out they throw on 
 the ammonium chloride to fonn the zinc chloride. 
 
 4493. I understood the use of ammonium chloride 
 was to remove the oxide from the iron P — No, it is not, 
 it is to remove the oxide from the oxide of zinc on the 
 surface of the bath. 
 
 4494. We understand that your view is this, that 
 when the ammonium chloride is thrown on it is disso- 
 ciated, ajid that it is probably the chlorinje that is 
 doing the mischief? — Yes, probably the chlorine and 
 the free ammonia. 
 
 4495. And that you would recommemd some experi- 
 ments being tried to settle what the fumes really con- 
 sisit of ? — Yes. 
 
 4496. You are very doubtful of the bad effects of 
 ammonium chloride itself ? — As the fumes of ammonium 
 chloride are prescribed by throat physicians. 
 
 4497. And it is your suspicion that amy harm that 
 results is due to chlorine and ammonia ? — Yes. 
 
 4493. Ammonia is distinctly deleterious? — Yes, it is 
 so irritating to the respiratory passages that people 
 have died from exposure to an accidental break of a 
 carboy. 
 
 4499. You would expect to find that men who got ill 
 in galvanising works presented the same features of 
 illness as those you have already described in chlorine 
 factories? — Yes, exactly, because they get exposed to 
 hydi-ochloric fumes when the hydrochloric acid is 
 evaporating off. 
 
 4500. Take another trade, where instead of ammonium 
 chloride hydrochloric acid and chloride of zinc ai'e 
 used, that is, the tinning trade? — Yes, I do not know 
 it. 
 
 4501. We have had a good deal of evidence about 
 that, and we suggest it would be also wise to consider 
 it ? — ^I think you are in all these things getting closer to 
 the chemistry. 
 
 4502. You would suggest l«stuig i'or» chlorine? — Yes, 
 aaid it should not be difficult. 
 
 4503. To get rid of that free chlorine somehow or 
 other is the real remedy to be got at in tackling that 
 problem ? — Yes. 
 
 4504. (Dr. Legge.) You do not offer any remarks on 
 the health of the workers in galvanising works ; you 
 have not the same experience of them that you have 
 of alkali workers ? — ^No, you will never find any men 
 ill in a galvanising work, they get good wages, and 
 as long as they can hold on they will do so. 
 
 4505. Do you find the same condition of the teeth? 
 — No, they will not permit/ mie to examine them^ 
 and they never have doctors in their works. 
 
 4506. You would expect that if your view regarding 
 chlorine is right their teeth would be affected in the 
 same way as in the chlorine works? — ^Yes, but there 
 is one thing to be noted, and thait is, in the galvanis- 
 ing work the work is intermittent. They have spells 
 when they have comparatively little to do, and spells 
 when they have a great deal to do. I know two or 
 three works in this city, one of which is pretty well 
 constantly employed, where you will find the teeth of 
 the workers fairly covered, and one or two others 
 where you will not find that, because they are not so 
 busily employed. 
 
 4507. (Professor Allbutt.) You told us that a great 
 deal depends on the way a man breathes, whether 
 through his nostrils or mouth T — ^Yes. 
 
 4506. Then fro^m the time the lungs 'began to 
 be less efficient, either from fixation of the chest or 
 thie commencement of fibroid phthisis, he would breathe 
 more and more through his mouth? — Yes. There is 
 another thing I would like to say, and that is this, 
 that there is nothing contributes to early lung dis- 
 ease more than a cramped position of the chest ; that 
 is an additional point. 
 
 4509. (Chairman.) Now, we might pass to carbon 
 monoxide, and I should like, in dealing with that 
 point, to remind you that the law has treated as an 
 accident a man overcome suddenly with carbon 
 monoxide, land consequently this 'Committee is rather 
 concerned with the permanent effects, if any, of carbon 
 monoxide ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4510. We should value any evidence you can give 
 on the permanent results of carbon monoxide? — The 
 only observations I have crystallized are observations 
 with regard to women laundry workers who work with 
 gas heated box irons — box irons heated with gas jets. 
 
 Whenever the iron gets heated there is an increase of 
 carbon monoxide, and these women bending over th©. 
 irons get the benefit of it. I have noticed fresh healthy 
 young women go into a laundry, and within six monthj. 
 become absolutely bleached, colourless, ansemic, use- 
 less, and get knocked off work, and unless they wera 
 sent away to the country were apt to break down in 
 health. Now, I have not been able positively to say- 
 that that is due to carbon monoxide and to no other 
 cause, simply by reason of the fact of the difficultr 
 of diagnosis. There is only one way of fixing the 
 diagnosis of carbon monoxide mischief, and that is 
 by examination of the blood by making minute micrp- 
 spectroscopic analysis. I must confess that I have 
 not, with this inquiry in view, had opportunities of 
 examining the blood of those women, but I should like' 
 to draw the attention of the Committee to the likeli- 
 hood of there being spectra of carbon monoxide hemo- 
 globin found in the blood of the womien. 
 
 4511-2. The traces would be very small? — Yes, you 
 get the spectrum, and if you get that it is all you want. 
 
 4513. What would be the effect on the health of 
 very small quantities — not enough to overcome you ?-r- 
 There would be bloodlessnes — ansemia. 
 
 4514. I thought that one of the peculiarities of car- 
 bon monoxide poisoning was that where men have 
 died with it their faces have been found quite red?— 
 But I thought we were not talking of that. 
 
 4515. Would the effect of a very slow poisoning be- 
 to make them bloodless and pale, whereas rapid, 
 poisoning would make them red ? — ^Yes, I expected to- 
 have brought with me a series of papers I have been 
 publishing in the " Lancet " on the subject. 
 
 4516. I think it would be very valuable if you could 
 let us have them ? — ^Yes, I can send you copies of them. 
 I have been trying to keep before my mind entirely 
 the chronic form of poisoning rather than the acuta. 
 poisoning. There is no difficulty about the man who 
 is poisoned by carbon monoxide. 
 
 4517. It causes a considerable redness? — Yes, and 
 that is due to this, the carbon monoxide forms with; 
 the colouring matter of the blood a new oompouiii 
 which is highly red, and remains so and if 
 you cut into human bodies where death has 
 been due to this, when you do it the first time you get 
 a shock that you never afterwards get over, because- 
 when you really cut into the body the blood is red and 
 not dark as it ought to be. That is due to the forma- 
 tion of this compound, but whenever you are dealing 
 with cases in which the amount absorbed is infinitesi- 
 mally small there never is enough of the new com- 
 pound formed to give the blood the colour that it gets 
 in the acute cases. The effect of a small quantity in 
 the blood in the case I am thinking of tends to depre- 
 ciate the colouring matter of the blood generally. 
 That is to say, the corpuscles do not carry the oxygen 
 to the tissues as they should do, and the person gets 
 ■weaker, and thare is with the bloodlessaiess, palpita- 
 tion, difficulty in going upstairs, a gradual falling away 
 of menstruation, and you very often get nervous. 
 symptoms. I have seen cases of young women in. 
 laundries who have actually been on the verge of taking 
 to drink to get over the feeling of depression, because- 
 once they start the work they are loth to give it up,. 
 and try to help themselves by stimulants. 
 
 4518. It does not follow that the spectroscopic test 
 may be concliusive ; it may depend on the colouring 
 matter ? — ^You may get a spectroscopic test without the 
 red matter being seen by the tnaked eye. I have 
 discovered the presence of carbon monoxide in the 
 blood when there was nothing about the blood from 
 the naked eye appearance at least to give the least in- 
 dication that it was there, even in cases of coal gas- 
 poisoning. 
 
 4519. These are the spectroscopic cases? — ^Yes. 
 4620. I suppose this chronic poisoning will be pro- 
 duced by gas irons for one thing? — ^Yes. 
 
 4521. And would it be got by stoves for another?— 
 I believe that is another additional cause. 
 
 4522. Ordinary stoves ? — Yes. Of course, as you will 
 see in the paper, I have referred tO', what I am trying 
 to warn the public of is that there has been of late 
 years an enormous addition of water gas in the 
 ordinary coal gas supply in the country, and that you 
 are going to add to the risks of carbon monoxide 
 poisoning by that very fact, and in. ways that will not 
 be easily discovered, consequently if you use water gas 
 adulterant, either in gas irons or stoves, you are 
 bound to add to the risks of carbon monoxide. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 143 
 
 4523. Apart from the fact that the flame of gas 
 playing on iron is supposed to produce a certain 
 amount of carbon monoxide?- — Yes, because you have 
 it forming in extra quantity. 
 
 4524. That would be the simplest thing in the world 
 to diagnose ? — ^Yes, I should say so perfectly positively 
 from my experience. I have been able to detect it in 
 cases of persons who have been rendered for the time 
 being really unconscious. The micro-spectroscopic test 
 told me at once what I had to deal with. 
 
 4525. And you believe the chronic cases would show 
 the very same thing? — Yes. It has never yet been 
 done, and I would like to get the chance of doing it if 
 I could. 
 
 4526. What about the Bunsen burner which is used 
 .so largely? — If properly mixed with air it does not 
 
 giiv© off any CO' at all. 
 
 4527. Cbuld not you examine the blood of one of thee© 
 : anaemic laundi-y girls? — I will try. 
 
 4528. It would help us greatly if you could examine 
 the blood of two or three of these laundry girls from 
 the point of view of the chronic effects of carbon 
 monoxide ? — I will certainly try what I can do. 
 
 4529. (Dr. Legge.) You have never had any cases of 
 paralysis or peripheral neuritis from blast furness 
 works? — No, not personally. Doctor Scott, of Toll- 
 <!ross, publishes one case, and as I understand he i» 
 coming here, you will be able to get particulars from 
 him. If you want to get any fu];ther information on 
 that point you will require to get it from French 
 soixrces, recorded evidence of secondary facts of carbon 
 monoxide poisoning. 
 
 4530. (Chairman.) Now, I think the lasit point is 
 naphtha ? — Well, possibly all that I want to say aboul 
 •naphtha is that it came under my observation when a 
 lad was found dead as the result of it, and I am not 
 able to speak, except from examination of several of 
 llis young fellow-workers, as to the symptoms from 
 wihi<3i they suffer but if they are of any use to the 
 Oommittee I will be glad to give them. 
 
 4531. We will be glad to have them ? — I thought it 
 was raAher interesting, because I was rather unpre- 
 :pared myself for what I found. The case arose in this 
 way ; it was referred to me as Medical Legal Examiner 
 for the Crown to inquire into this lad's death, and I 
 found the following were the facts. He was employed 
 in a waterproofing work in the neighbourhood of Glas^ 
 gow. His duty was to superintend the stretching of 
 long layers of cloth between pegs in what was called a 
 drying-room after the cloth had been subjected to the 
 waterproofing process. During the process of drying 
 a, lainge quantity of the strong-smelling substance, which 
 was called naphtha, but what it really was I could not 
 say — the people would not provide a sample for aualy- 
 •sis, so I could not go further than the fact that it was 
 called taaphtha. This lad felt himself ill, as he had 
 don© before, and came up a short flight of stairs on to 
 an upper landing outside the well in which this place 
 •was, and collapsed on the floor. He was carried oiit by 
 two' or three lads- tO' the open, air and died. His father 
 •raised an action of damages. The insurance people for 
 •the employers, the indemnifiers, declined to acknowl- 
 edge liability, and •the father had to raise ian action in 
 the Court of Session about the matter. After they saw 
 my report they oompromieed the question, and gave the 
 ■father, I think, £160 damages, but had the case not 
 been fought he would not have received any damages, 
 because the insurance people declined to acknowledge 
 liability. Now, what these yo'ung lads complain of is, 
 tiat •liey become first of all exhilarated, and then they 
 become practically intoxicated, staler about, lose all 
 sens© of distance, and all sense of danger, and some- 
 itimee collapse in a state of insemsibility and rema-in in 
 that state for some time, when they are either picked 
 up by •fcheir neighbour® or fortunately fall in a place 
 where they are likely to recover. Four or five lads in 
 -this work have all suffered, and all, I think, have been 
 more or less unconscious on more than one occasion. 
 In the autumn of 1902 another case of death occurred in 
 Glasgow in a similar works, only it was a gutta percha 
 works, and the reason why I bring this case before you 
 is that my impression is ■that I saw the case with the 
 late Dr. Finlayson, who is dead, and whose then house- 
 surgeon is dead, and as they both recorded the case in 
 the British Medical Journal I take the liberty of men- 
 ine it. That is the case of a man who, employed in a 
 rubber and gutta percha factory, was found lying dead 
 in the works. The case is referred to in the " IJritish 
 
 Medical Journal," and I will be able to give Dr. Legge Professor 
 tbe references to it, and he will he able tO' get the j. Glaister, 
 whole facts there. It seemed to me to be very much on m.D. 
 
 the lines of the carbon disulphide mischief. 
 
 T ,_ 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 itooi. 1 suppose there would be an inquest or posi- 
 
 mortem examination on the body of the lad who died ? 
 
 No, that was the extraordinary thing. The father of 
 thelad was perfectly willing that a post-mortem exami- 
 nation should be made, and the insurance people, the 
 indenmifiers of the employers, had this permission of 
 the father in their hands, but at the last moment, juat 
 before the bod.y was. to. be interred, they sent out a 
 telegram stating, "Post-mortem examination not 
 needed." Then, after the body was buried they denied 
 all responsibility for the lad's death. 
 
 4533. How long ago did this occur ? — In November, 
 1903. 
 
 4534. The present Notice of Accident Act was not in 
 force then ? — No. I am quite sure it was- not a carbon 
 disulphide case. I went to the place and made an ex- 
 amination. It is what they call naphtha, and I be- 
 live it is a form of naphtha ; at least, that is my im- 
 pression. Whether it is a pure naphtha or not I can- 
 not say, because there are so many substances called 
 naph-fcha that it is difficult to distinguish. 
 
 4535. But after all, it only proves that naphtha is 
 capable of causing an accident P — Yes. 
 
 4536. You do not get a chronic disease from naphtha ? 
 — At lewst, we have no evidence of that. 
 
 4537. So that, so far as our present inquiry is con- 
 cerned, we need not trouble ourselves much with these 
 ca.ses, because they are not cases of chronic diseases ? — 
 No. 
 
 4558. They are cases of accident, and would come 
 under the Workmen's Compensation Act ? — Yes, they 
 would certainly, I can understand that perfectly. 
 
 4539-40. (D>\ Legge.) There were two more accidents 
 from naphtha poisoning about a year ago in Glasgow 
 in cleaning out a tank ; I do not think they proved 
 fa-bal — do you remember them p — They were accidents of 
 the same kind as this one; I have got notes of these 
 by me, but one accumulates a very large amount of 
 material, and I am sorry that I have been ill or I 
 would have had more material at my disposal. 
 
 4541. Is there such a thing as chrome poison- 
 ing, is that a rig'iut definition? — I have not see'n 
 any evidence of it, I am not prepared to say there is 
 not, but I can imagine perfectly easily that if a man 
 ifi exposed at a chrome work for a considerable period — 
 a careless man, who does not take care of his mouth 
 and wash his teeth, will absorb a certain amount of 
 chromic acid to do mischief, but I do not know about 
 that. 
 
 4542. Will you regard the effect that is produced 
 by the action of chrome as an injury or a disease? — I 
 would say an injury. I would say it is a poison in the 
 sense that it would act imperceptibly, more or less. 
 
 4543. For the purposes of the schedule ? — I would 
 incline to call it disease. 
 
 4544. " Chrome ulceration, or ulceration of the skin, 
 or mucous membrane produced by chrome " — would you 
 consider that definition sufficient ? — Yes, skin or 
 mucous membrane, or cartilage, or deeper structure. 
 
 4546. If you have the skin and mucous membrane 
 ulcerated it would include what went deeper? 
 — ^You would require to have that before you got 
 the deeper thing involved certainly, but that would 
 not be a true defitnition of nasal perforation without 
 the words, " Deeper structure." 
 
 4546. You have had experience which you need not 
 detail to ue of poisoning by arseniuretted hydrogen P— 
 Yes. 
 
 4547. Do you ithink arsenical poisoning is sufficiently 
 included by the term arseniuretted hydrogen? — I may 
 eay that I am about to publish a monogi-aph on arseni- 
 uretted hydrogen poisoning. It seems to me to bulk 
 more largely than it used to do. I have collected in the 
 literature of the world something like between ninety 
 and one hundred oases of arseniuretted hydrogen. My 
 manuscript is all ready for the press. I understood up 
 till now that the word arsenic, as included [in the 
 third schedule of the Act, would include arseniuretted 
 hydrogen, and I took it as such, but I must say this 
 poison is so fatal in its actuion and sometimes so insi- 
 dious, and sometimes arises in such unlooked-for 
 
144 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE : 
 
 Professor 
 
 J. Olaiater, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 places, that I think if it could be done at all attention 
 should be given to it in trade diseases. 
 
 4548. And an additional reason why emphasis should 
 b© laid on the difference of the symptoms is that medi- 
 cal men are not so familiar with it ? — As a matter of 
 fact, the oafiee to which my attention, was drawn were 
 ertraordiaai-y. I was telegraphed for to go and see a 
 man who was sufEering from a mysterious illness in 
 Irvine. I found him suffering from unusual symptomB. 
 but I came to the conclusion that he was suffering from 
 some form of gaseous poison, probably arsenic. The 
 doctors had never heard of it before, and there had been 
 on© or two cases interred of similar deaths under the 
 term " Malignant jaundice." Well, I did not blame the 
 medical men, because these cases arose in the most un- 
 looked-for places during the making of bleaching 
 powder. Now, how could arsenic get into bleaching 
 powder? It was found that tbe people in this case 
 
 brought sulphur pyrites from Spain. Spanish pyrites, 
 contain a large quantity of arsenic. They made 
 sulphuric acid from that pyrites, then hydrochloric acif 
 from that, and bleaching powder from that. The mud 
 collected at the bottom of aWelldon's retort, but after it 
 was thoroughly silted the man went down with a zinc 
 pail and an iron shovel and carried out Marsh's test 
 on a large scale, generated areeniuretted hydrogen and 
 killed himself. They have been using wooden shovels- 
 ever since, and they have not had any more cases. It is 
 really extraordinary wihen you come to consider the 
 amount of simple chemistry involved in some of these 
 things. The remedies are so simple when they can be 
 traced out. The great difficulty is that the very men 
 who should see most carefully to get the remedies carried' 
 out are the people who won't do it. If there is any 
 other point on which I can give information I shall" 
 send it on. 
 
 Mr. Alexandek Scott, m.d., called in and Examined. 
 
 Mr. A. Scott, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 4549. (Chairman.) You were formerly a general prac- 
 titioner among an industrial population, and you are at 
 present a certifying Factory Surgeon, Senior Physician 
 to the Outdoor Department of the Glasgow Royal 
 Infirmary, and deputy visiting physician for eleven 
 years, Consulting Physician to Bellefield Sanatorium 
 for Consumption and other forms of tuberculous 
 diseases ? — Yes. 
 
 4550. I think you have made a number of contribu- 
 tions to medical journals on industrial diseases — ^lead 
 poisoning, carbon monoxide poisoning, mercurial poi- 
 soning, neurosis of railway servants, anthrax, etc. ? — 
 Yes, and others. 
 
 4551. We should like you to give us your view on a 
 selected number of industrial' diseases ? — Yes. 
 
 4552. Yon might take them one after the other. The 
 first we will take is fibrosis of the lung ? — Yes. 
 
 4553. It was common among miners twenty-five or 
 thirty years ago? — Very common when I began prac- 
 tio©. 
 
 4554. It is not nearly so common now ? — Nothing like 
 it, it is rarely seen, even in the hospital. 
 
 4555. The disease that existed twenty-five or thirty 
 years ago^ — did you attribute it to coal dust, or rook 
 dust, or what sort of dust ? — ^I found in my investiga^ 
 tion among these men that it was those colliers who as 
 they said took bargains that suffered. That is to say, 
 they went to a new part of a mine and wrought there. 
 They were intelligent men, and they wrought in that 
 very bad air, and therefore got cut up very much 
 sooner. They were cut up by the particles of rock and 
 coal that they pass through, but it was generally that 
 class of men among the miners that I discovered suf- 
 fered from that disease. 
 
 4556. But will ooal dust, apart from rock dust, cause 
 fibrosis, or is it rock dust? — ^Rock dust. The deposit 
 of the dust itself lowers the vitality, but the rock dust 
 actually cuts up. 
 
 4557. I thought tihat fibrosis could not be produced 
 by coal dust alone? — No, I would not say so; it is 
 possible that there might be particles of coal large 
 enough to cause an injury to the minute structures. 
 
 4558. It is the rock dust really ? — Yes. 
 
 4559. How is the rock dust produced — ^^by drilling in 
 the rock? — Yes, holeing, as they call it. 
 
 4560. We know, of course, a good deal about that; 
 what was it that was known as the black spit? — 
 Melanosis ; we examined that spit very carefully, and, 
 strange to say, the blackness was mostly composed of 
 carbon from the burning of the lamps — ^the wicks. 
 That was the case, and I remember Professor Coats, 
 of Glasgow, making the same remark to me that really 
 the deposit itself was generally the carbon which was 
 said to come from the lamps of the miners. 
 
 4561. Now, fibroid phthisis, as a disease, is still met 
 with frequently? — Yes, it is quite common. 
 
 4562. How do you distinguish fibroid phthisis from 
 tuberculous phthisis ?— Th© fibroid phthisis we see now 
 is practically a tubercular disease, but the great dis- 
 tinguishing feature in a fibroid phthisis is its con- 
 tractility, that is, shrinking of the lung, and as it goes 
 on there is generally a change of position in the organs 
 of the chest, such as the heart, caused by that shrink- 
 
 ing. Supposing, now, that I had found a case of a. 
 typical fibrosis, I would expect first of all a contracted- 
 condition of the lung, a shrinking of the lung. Then 
 as that went on it would take up less space, and the- 
 other organs would generally be found not in their 
 normal position. _ Then, if it was a pure case of 
 fibroid disease, arising from, say, a mason's trade, or a, 
 man in a quarry, or a coUier who was making a new 
 way in a mine, the disitinguishing feature would there 
 be the presence or a;bsenoe of tubercular bacilli. It 
 would be my first investigation to find that out. If I 
 did not find baccili, and I found that there was a 
 dulness in the lung and contractions, etc., then I would 
 consider it non-tuberculous. 
 
 4563. Are you speaking of a post-mortem examination ?" 
 —Even in examination, supposing I was demonstratmg 
 it to students I would find that. A suggested' case- 
 would be one in which you would find these symptoms- 
 or signs which I have already spoken of, and yet the--, 
 absence of tubercular (jacilU — for I find that even in' 
 filTToid disease among drapers where the door is vary 
 often shut up with cloth, or shop girls in ready-made . 
 cloth shops, or seamstresses — it is in those that I find" 
 most instances of fibroid disease of the lungs. Now, in 
 the case of a man that had acquired it by his trade, I" 
 would say that it would not run such a chronic course 
 as in those engaged in those trades ; he would be cut up 
 very much sooner, and, as I have already said, there 
 will be an absence, or almost entire s^bsence of the- 
 tubeircular bacilli. 
 
 4564. But to what sort of dust do you attribute the- 
 fibrosis of drapens, shop girls and seamstresses ? — That 
 is a different form ; I would say it was just as much- 
 from an infection of tubercular disease, where they had. 
 not got plenty of fresh air, not very much ventilation, 
 not sufficient sunshine — I would say it was due to- 
 tbat more Iflian anything el?e. 
 
 4565. The infection of tubercular disease? — Yes. 
 
 4566. But we are speaking of non-tubercular phthisis?' 
 — Well, I do not think I can find many non-tubercular- 
 fibroid cases of phthisis among the drapers and seam- 
 
 4567. But, still, it wovdd be fibroid? — ^It would ha. 
 distinctly, 
 
 4568. Can you get fibroid phthisis without an irritat- 
 ing dust, such ais silicate or steel? — Anything ffliat 
 would lower the vitality of the lung would predispose- 
 it to fibroid phthisis. 
 
 4569. {Professor 'Allbutt.) I think we might clear the: 
 way a little ; we mean by fibroid phthisis one species- 
 of consumption? — Yes. 
 
 4570. Tuberculous phthisis or any other phthisic 
 may have something of a fibroid character ; but the- 
 Chairman intended tO' use the term fibroid phthisis 
 as a phthisis due to inhalation of grit? — ^Well, I 
 simply wanted to say it was very difficult to differesn- 
 tiate between a fibroid phthisis that arose in a miner. 
 and a fibroid phthisis that arose among women, for 
 ■example, who are not engaged under the same con- 
 ditions. 
 
 4571. This raises rather a difficult point, because 
 according to your view a good deal of phthisis cait 
 be got through their occupation by drapers, shop- 
 girls, and seamstresses ?— Yes, I say so. 
 
DEPAKTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 145 
 
 4572. And yet the conditions must be very variable, 
 because even in the same shops some materials will be 
 much more dusty than others? — Yes, there are ceitain 
 workshops or shops themselves in which the conditions 
 are very much more favourable for the development of 
 phthisis than others.* 
 
 4573. You would not suggest that drapers, shop girls, 
 and seamstresses get this dust phthisis in anything 
 like the degree that grinders, we will say, get it? — • 
 Well, it is pretty common, from my experience in the 
 infirmary. 
 
 4574. Another point then. Would you be prepared 
 to say that shop girls and drapers dealing with these 
 materials get phthisis to an extent more than the rest 
 of the population? — I would, that is my experience. 
 
 4575. Would you go so far as to say that it was a 
 disease specific to their calling or rather one to arise 
 in any person under depressing conditions ? — No, I 
 would not say it was specific, but just from my own 
 experience that is what I say. 
 
 4576. Do you attribute the dust to the drapery? 
 — ^I have examined even that dust with negative results. 
 
 4577. So although a fibroid phthisis it seems it is 
 not a fibroid phtliisis due to dust? — That is so. 
 
 4578. Would it be convenient to use the term 
 " fibroid phthisis " as signifying phthisis due to grit, 
 and to call your shops girls' phthisis merely chronic 
 phthisis ? — That would do. 
 
 4579. When you are speaking to the Chairman it 
 might be convenient for you to use the name " fibroid 
 phthisis " for that which is more or less produced by 
 grit, and chronic phthisis for any phthisis which is 
 slow in its nature? — ^Yes. 
 
 (Professor Allbutt) {to the Chairman). Or we might 
 perhaps drop the word " fibroid " ajid put in the word 
 "gritty." 
 
 (Chairman.) Yes. 
 
 4580. (Chairman.) According to that definition these 
 seamstresses and shop girls would have tuberculous 
 phthisis ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4581. Although there were some appearances of a 
 fibroid character? — ^Yes, a very close resemblance. 
 
 4582. So in that sense the phthisis of a domestic 
 servant might exhibit certain fibroid characterstics ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 4583. (Dr. Legge.) At what age do you find marked 
 tubercular phthisis among these drapers' assistants ? 
 — In very early youth. 
 
 4584. When do you expect to get the gritty phthisis ? 
 — In gritty phthisis there is the history of working 
 under certain conditions, and it is generally more 
 chronic in its nature. 
 
 4585. So the one is a disease of the young and the 
 other of the middle aged ? — Yes, I would say about 
 40 years of age. That is among miners especially, I 
 have seen very little of it either in the hospital or out 
 of it. 
 
 4586. Suposlng that in the third schedule gritty 
 phthisis were put down as a disease for which com- 
 pensation was payable and tubercular phthisis should 
 be left out — ^take the case of men employed on grind- 
 ing? — ^Yes. 
 
 4587. Would you say if they have gritty phthisis it 
 is due to the grinding ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4588. If they have gritty jphthisis you would say 
 that is the common lot of machine grinders, but would 
 it be fairly easy for a doctor observing a case to 
 distinguish in the large majority of cases the one from 
 the other so as to be able to tell whether a man ought 
 to have compensation or not? — Generally it would 
 be. Of course there are certain points which would 
 lead you to suppose that it was due to a man's work. 
 For example, if it had come on gradually, if it knocked 
 the man up, say, at early middle life, say at forty 
 years of age, if he had the symptoms of fibroid phthisis 
 up till then, if the tubercular bacilli were not 
 numerous or absent — the family history might also be 
 taken into account — if we got a man, say, at forty 
 years of age suffering from such things, or rather in 
 such circumstances, I would say it was a case in which 
 a man ought to be compensated, because his conditioii 
 had arisen through his work. If, however, a man went 
 on till he was an old man — ^we have miners working 
 now at 60 or 70 years of age— and he had, say, short- 
 ness of breath and bronchitis, but besides that there 
 
 419 
 
 were tubercular bacilli, if there was a family history jfr. A. Scoff, 
 to help you in your diagnosis, though the vitality of m.d. 
 
 the lung had been lowered by his employment, I do not 
 
 think that that had been to such an extent as to render ^^ '^^'^- 1907. 
 him entitled to compensation. 
 
 4589. Then, according to your view, it would be 
 possible to distinguish ; there might be difficulties, 
 but it would not be an impossible task for medical 
 men to make the distinction? — It would not, with 
 these obtrusive points before them — that is, with 
 grinders, hewers, and miners. 
 
 4590. But from the point of view of a right to com- 
 pensation, the drapers, shop girls, and seamstresses 
 do not seem to stand on the same footing with men 
 like grindters as far as compensation is concerned? — 
 No, they do not. 
 
 4591-96. In phthisis due to grit is the average tem- 
 perature normal or sub-normal ? — That is a point I 
 forgot to mention-; it is a thing I have taken a good 
 deal of interest in. Generally if it is not tubercular 
 the temiDsrature is normal or sub-normal, and the 
 man will cough and suffer from dyspnoea. You will 
 find that, normal or sub-normal, if it is not tubercular. 
 
 4597. But if it is tubercular ? — The temperature rises 
 at night and falls in the morning as usual. 
 
 4598. You have put down " Suffering from bron- 
 chitis and dyspnoea " ? — Yes, bronchitis and shortness 
 of breath, and when I began practice the colliers used 
 to come and get their bottles filled for that just as 
 regularly as they went for their food, but we never 
 see that now. 
 
 4599. Then ithere would b© a "dulness on peroussioa 
 with contraction or shrinkage of lung" ?— Yee. 
 
 4600. Do you lay stress on the examination of the 
 sputum?— Yes ; that is what I would call a suggestion. 
 
 4601. You would not be prepared to make the exami- 
 nation of the sputum absolutely conclusive ; that is to 
 say, if there was some bacilli in it you would not say 
 it was absolutely conclusive one way or another, but it 
 would be an indication to a certain extent? — Yes, it 
 would be. 
 
 4602. (Professor Allhutti) You have said if the bacilli 
 were in moderate quantity or absent ? — ^Yes, not many — 
 noit numerous or negative. 
 
 4603. (Chairman.) What occupations do you think 
 the gritty phthieis may be considered as an attending 
 phenomenon of; first, there is grinding of all sortsi — 
 metal grinding, both brass and steel ; then potters' rot 
 will be another, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 4604. Then tiere will be ganister mining of all sorts f 
 —Yes. 
 
 4605. Would you put basic slag down ? — I could not 
 say that I have much experience of it. 
 
 4606. Are there any others you can add to those I 
 have given ?— Hewers, masonfi; I would put a hewer 
 down especially. 
 
 4607. How would you define a hewer? — A man who- 
 prepares tihe stone for some part of the building, 
 making it smooth ; and he goes round the comer. He- 
 is well paid and continually at it, breathing in the dust. 
 
 4608. Is that what we call in England ashlar P— I- 
 think that is more of -a coar&er nature than hewing. 
 
 4609. Is there any other trad© that occurs to yom 
 besides those you have mentioned? — No. 
 
 4610. Would there be any similar danger in brick- 
 making or cement-making? — No; there is the dust, 
 but that is nothing. In the same way, my experience 
 in the examination of this has not been so serious as I 
 anticipated when I began work. 
 
 4611. Is it eilicious ? — Yes. 
 
 4612. {Professor Allbutt.) Of course, diagnosis in 
 matters of this kind at the best can only amount to 
 probability, though in certain cases to a high degree 
 of probability? — Yes. 
 
 4613. But, granting adequate information, and with- 
 out this we can never expect it to go to high degrees 
 of probability, the grounds you have given us for 
 diagnosing ordinary gritty phthisis and tubercular 
 phthisis seem to amount to a considerable opportunity 
 of diagnosis ? — Yes. 
 
 4614. I thought perhaps you were a little pessimistic 
 
 about your clinical diagnosis, seeing that you gave 
 us very fair grounds of definition which would be 
 applicable in, say, 90 per cent, of cases ? — Yes. 
 
 r 
 
146 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. 
 
 A. Scott, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan 15)07, 
 
 4615. Such as a normal temperature, and a cough 
 and dyspnoea, bearing a very large proportion to the 
 physical signs, which at any rate during a very large 
 part of that state are, comparatively speaking, almost 
 insignificant ; is that in accordance with your ex- 
 perience ? — Yes. 
 
 4616. That is a very general experience? — ^Yes. 
 
 4617. And it is a very important guide to the dis- 
 crimination of cases? — Yes. 
 
 4618. In well-marked cases there might not be 
 much difficulty P — ^That ie so. 
 
 4619. But there would be doubtful cases in which 
 the physical signs were inconclusive? — Yes. 
 
 4620. I think you have accepted that very important 
 point about the temperature P — Yes, an interesting 
 point — the presence of the tubercular bacilli. 
 
 4621. You ihave contemplated the supervention of 
 Bome degree of tuberculosis ? — Yes. 
 
 4622. So long as this is moderate in extent, so far 
 as we can estimate it by microscopic examination, this 
 would not for the purpoises of our present inquiry take 
 tihe oas© out of the category of gritty phthieis P — No. 
 
 4623. And euppoeing the man had! been getting more 
 and more incapacitated for 15 or 20 years, and that at 
 the end of that time the evidences of tuberculosis 
 became very considerable, are we still to be justified in 
 looking upon his case as one of gritty phthieis? — I 
 would not like to eay that — I do not think we could say 
 that ; no, if I were to say it I would etill go back to 
 my early middle life — ^the man is there, and hie lung is 
 in that condition at that age. The man appears before 
 you tor examination under the Oompeneation Act, and 
 he is only 40 years of age. 
 
 4624. And he would be incapacitated for woik before 
 he was likely to have an acute supervention of tuber- 
 culosis ? — Yes. 
 
 4625. Put it in this way, that the difficulty I have 
 
 been putting to you is a difficulty that pTaotically 
 would not arise? — Yes. 
 
 4626. (Br. Legge.) We have had a good many wit- 
 nesses before us on the subject, and several of them 
 have described the characteristic appearance of the 
 workers who suffer from fibrosis of the lungs ; have you 
 any note to add? — Nothing but the kind of emphy- 
 ee'maixjue look of the chest. 
 
 4627. I was thinking of the ansemia P — Yes. 
 
 4628. (Professor Allbutt.) You have examined a great 
 many of those people in a comparatively early stage of 
 gritty phthisis? — ^Yes. 
 
 4629. Supposing a man had been engaged in this 
 work 10 years, having started at 18 years of age, and 
 you examined him at 28 years of age, would you expect 
 to find very much change? — ^No. 
 
 4550. If he had been engaged twice that time, 20 
 years, you would expect to have some signs ? — Yes. 
 
 4631. Please tell us what would be the earliest sign 
 which would incline you to suspect the pTCsence of 
 fibrosis? — The first would be bronchitis— continued 
 bronchitis and shortness of breath. 
 
 4632. I was rather speaking of the physical signs ? — 
 They are still indefinite ; you could have a suspicion. 
 
 4633. Although a man may be very ill, yet his 
 physical signs would be indefinite? — ^Yes. 
 
 4634. (Chairman.) Come now to the neurosis due to 
 vibration ; you have, I think, had experience of boiler- 
 makers who use pneumatic hammers for rivetting and 
 boring holes ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4635. There is not much percussion in the boring — 
 it is a continuoTis action ? — ^Yes, but still there is some. 
 
 4636. There is a little vibrating, oscillating machine ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4637. The characteristics produced by considerable 
 use of these tools for some time are tremors? — Yes. 
 
 4636. Sleeplessness? — ^Yes. 
 
 4630. Sleep not refreshing? — Yes. 
 
 4640. Having dreams and jerking movements of the 
 muscles during sleep ? — Yes, which is not a symptom I 
 have found. 
 
 4641. The development of it is slow ? — ^Very. 
 
 4642. And there appears to be no permanent in- 
 capacity derived from it? — Not one case did I find, and 
 I examined them most carefully after I got your note. 
 1 may say that tiiere was one man, who was known 
 
 throughout several works, who could tell me that So- 
 and-so had been knocked up, and I went and hunted 
 him up at the work he was engaged on. I found he had 
 been employed for six and a half years, and owing to 
 these symptoms which you have already mentioned his 
 medical man had told him he must give up this- work. 
 I asked him into the office and examined him. He was 
 a highly neurotic, excitable man. He appeared to be 
 in noi-mal health otherwise. The work had been re- 
 sumed for eight days, and he had gone back to the 
 pneumatic tool. I examined his reflexes, and there 
 were distinct tremors in both hands and arms. He had 
 just come from his work. I asked him if this had ever 
 incapacitated him for his work, and he said no. Had 
 he ever been off, and he said yes, he had suffered from 
 bronchitis and was on his society, but from this ailment 
 he had never been incapacitated for his work. Now 
 there was nothing remarkable about this man 
 other than his neurotic expression and neurotic 
 tendency, and all that I could find were the 
 tremore which I have already described. But it was 
 after the New Year festivities, and I asked him if he 
 indulged in alcohol to any extent. He said, " Well, 
 no." I eaid, " Now, you generally do take it on Satur- 
 day night," and his answer, which was very charac- 
 teristic, was, " I make no exceptions," so that he took 
 a little drop as he needed it, and I thought that 
 probably a good deal of the neurosis was due to the 
 festivities he had already been enjoying at the New 
 Year. Well, that was the only case that I really could 
 get in my whole evidence that really had to- change the 
 employment owing to the vibration. I am giving you 
 the concomitant circumstances. I examined a great 
 many others. 
 
 4643. You could not suggest this vibration seriously 
 as a subject for compensation? — Not in the remotest 
 way could I do it. I got my hand on tieir body and 
 hands, and even when the hose was coiled round their 
 body, with all the tremor going on, they would come 
 out and speak to me and be quite right. One thing I 
 noticed very markedly was that those who tippled— 
 that is, made no exceptions or perhaps took a little too 
 much — had the tremors quite distinctly. One man who 
 had been at the work for five years had not a sign of 
 it, and I asked him, and he said, " Dr. Scott, I never 
 tasted it in my life." 
 
 4644. It is really chronic alcoholism all the time?— 
 Yes ; the circumstiances were there, any way, and thej 
 were most marked to me. 
 
 4645. (Br. Legge.) Have you any observation on the 
 deafness produced by boiler-makers owing tO' the noise 
 of their work ? — ^Yes, every man of them is deaf ; there 
 is not one but what is deaf. 
 
 4646. What degree of deafness is there — ^they can 
 hear persons talking? — You have to talk very 
 loudly to them, but I never made any test of their 
 hearing. The deafness is very marked, and the 
 tympanum must be very much weakened. 
 
 4647. Do you think that is a subject for compensa- 
 tion? — I do not think so; it does not interfere with 
 their work or their power of work, and you know that 
 the noise is extraordinary in a boiler work. 
 
 4648. There is no means of preventing that noise?— 
 No. 
 
 4649. Is not there a mode of stopping the ears up! 
 — Yes, putting something in their ears; but they will 
 not do that, although it would ease it very much. 
 
 4650. It would do good ? — ^If cotton wool is put in it 
 allays the oscillation of the tympanum. •' 
 
 4651. But it does not prevent deafness P — It would 
 preserve their hearing. 
 
 4652. And would prevent their getting deaf?— Yee, 
 but they will not do it. 
 
 4653. If they will not do it, it does not seem they ar« 
 very much annoyed by the deafness P — No. 
 
 4654. Do you know of any case where permanent 
 deafness has been produced ? — No, not one. 
 
 4655. Have you not had experience of neurosis 
 due to vibration in oar drivers and engine drivers ?- 
 Yes ; I would ascribe that more to the excitement, tha 
 nervous tension, in car drivers and engine driveiS' 
 When I wrote my paper on the subject I gathered!; 
 good many cases of that. ^0] 
 
 4656. You do' not consider such cases analogous ^ 
 the boiler-makers'? — ^No, it is purely nervous; in*" 
 the cases I had not one of them could I ascribe to tl*' 
 vibration. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 147 
 
 4657. Is it not a subject for inquiry ? — Yes, but ther« 
 is no mention of it. 
 
 4658. Would you describe tlie particulans ? — Well, tba 
 last case I had wae that of a stationmaster. The 
 common eymptoms ajfe, first, sleeplessness; then he 
 dreams and feels as if he were always in a fright, and 
 if you set him down to talk to you he will probably fall 
 asleep, but yet when he goes to bed he cannot sleep at 
 all. If you put your hand on his skin he is almost 
 always baithed in a cold perspiration. In one of th« 
 cases there was nervous vomiting dyspepsia, and in two 
 of the cases I have had convulsions. 
 
 4659. These are car drivers ?• — And locomo'tive engina 
 drivers. I would say first of all that the first case I did 
 see was an engine driver. He was a mam certainly who 
 was not fit, from a nervous point of view, for any such 
 employment, and his prominent symptom was dyspepsia, 
 but the strange thing was that you could not discovei 
 what his dyspepsia was due to, do what you like. I 
 sent him to a specialist in Glasgow, and he simply 
 laughed and said, " Did Dr. Scott send you to me ? I 
 will soon put you right." He was never a bit better, 
 and the vomiting and the dyspepsia continued so badly 
 that I really thought his mind was going to become 
 unhinged. However, it happened one day when he waa 
 driving his engine that he lost so much control over it 
 that it ran into a siding. There was a smash, and he 
 was dismissed. That man is living to this day ; he is 
 quite well, and has never been ill since. He sells coal 
 on the street, and is doing well. I could go on in- 
 terminably ; I have been collecting these cases. There 
 was on© very marked case of a signalman who was 
 found by the stationmaster writhing in convulsions iq 
 his box, quite unconscious. These convulsions had 
 been preceded by the symptoms I have already men- 
 tioned. At the last serious accident in St. Enoch 
 Station I wrote to the Board of Trade and 
 pointed out that the engine driver was simply not fit 
 for his work. His whole endeavour had been to main, 
 tain a certain record in his work, and he lost control, 
 as it were, of his engine, which was entirely due to the 
 condition of his nervous system. 
 
 4660. {Professor Allbuti.) What hours do you think 
 these men were working? — There was one of the men 
 working much longer than eight hours, and I wrote a 
 letter to the " Times," which was not published, in 
 which I pointed out that they said they had so many 
 hours in the week to work, but that did not mean eight 
 hours per day. 
 
 4661. It was piled on unequally ? — Yes. I have had 
 several cases of that kind, and I wrote to the " Times," 
 but they did not publish the letter. 
 
 4662. (Dr. Legge.) Did you think these men, if they 
 had been oS work for a certain length of time, would 
 Lave got better and been able to resume their work ? — 
 In certain cases they would, but some of the men would 
 never have been fit for that kind of work. 
 
 4663. It would have been right that they should not 
 have been in it ? — Yes. In the case of a tramcar driver 
 I wrote to the doctor for the Tramcar Men's Society 
 and told him that if he would give the man a holiday 
 he would be all right. He has done that, and he has got 
 all light. 
 
 4664. (Chairman.) In order to recover his nerves? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4665. (Dr. Legge.) Is the condition of their nerves 
 due as much to their employment as fibroid phthisis 
 may bp? — ^Yes, that is my opinion, come to after all 
 these years working at it. 
 
 4666. Is there any particular designation that the 
 illness could be described as? — I call it neurosis of 
 railway servants. 
 
 4667. Has your attention been called to neurosis 
 'among the railway car attendants? — I had just one, I 
 
 think, that ever consulted me. It was persistent head- 
 ! ache, but it was not a very marked caee. That is the 
 only one I have had of the attendants, but I have had 
 stationmasters, engine drivers, and signalmen. I had 
 _also a railway porter, but he was acting as a signalman 
 'when he contracted the complaint. 
 
 4668. (Professor Allhutt.) I was not thinkinfC of 
 , porters, as they are scarcely under high tension ? — It 
 was a beautiful case ; there was a man came to me at 
 the infirmary. He had come from the country, having 
 ibeen recommended by some person as a good workman, 
 land he was given this kind of work. While he was in 
 fthe country he simply had no brain work whatever, 
 
 419 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 but he had to doi a little of that when he came to the j]fr. A. Scott, 
 town, and the stir knocked him off his head altogether. 
 
 4669. Has it occurred to you that in the case of the 
 engine drivers, the signalmen, and the car drivers, the 
 ocular refraction might be concerned in the matter? 
 — Yes, I have seen their eyes affected, not simply with 
 pure astigmatism, but very like it. 
 
 4670. Do you not think that this neurotic strain may 
 be largely ocular?— It is quite possible. 
 
 4671. I suggest that from my own experience many 
 of these oases might be explained as ocular strain, and 
 be curable by spectacles ? — Yes ; but you dare not 
 speak to a railwayman about glasses. 
 
 4672. But errors of refraction might be determined 
 by a systematic examination of their eyes? — Yes, I 
 have pointed that out many a time. 
 
 4673. You think that, at any rate, is a step that 
 ought to be taken? — Yes. 
 
 4674. (Chairman.) What proportion of engine drivers 
 would be likely to get this? Out of one hundred 
 drivers engaged, what proportion do you think would 
 very likely become subject to neurosis ? — A compara- 
 tively small proportion. 
 
 4675. Then it is due really to the effect of an occu- 
 pation upon a man whO' is unfit for it? — ^Yes, in a 
 large measure, certainly. 
 
 4676. It is that the men are not fit for the work they 
 are going to do — it is not a condition that would be ex- 
 pected to arise naturally? — No. 
 
 4677. If a man had a predisposition to lunacy, many 
 occupations might make him ai complete lunatic ? 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 4678. And in that case it would be rather a curious 
 philosophical question to ask which was the cause of 
 the lunacy — the man or his occupation?' — Yes, I do 
 not think the two cases are exactly parallel in the 
 engine driver or the car driver, because the strain that 
 goes on there for a certain time tells on his nervous 
 power, and, therefore, he suffers from his ocoupation. 
 The best of them will suffer from that ; but there 
 are certain who should never be in the work at all. 
 Still, taking any of ourselves for example, if your mind 
 is continually working away, it will get tired very soon. 
 If you apply that to a man who is dilving an engine, 
 and has a number of people's lives under his care, or 
 take the case of that young man I have already men- 
 tioned, who drove the ill-fated engine at the St. Enoch 
 disaster, whose w'hole heart and soul were in his work, 
 and who wished to maintain his fine recoTd. You can 
 see how that would exhaust the nervous tissue very 
 considerably, and that he would suffer from his work. 
 
 4679. But is not neurosis due to excitement pro- 
 duced by a desire to pursue a difficult occupation char- 
 acteristic also of bank clerks and all sorts of people ? 
 — To a less degree, certainly I would say so. 
 
 4680. It would seem to me that the desire to carry 
 through a diflScult occupation with credit to yourself 
 is one thing, and the shaking and vibration is another 1 
 —Yes. 
 
 4681. And that fear of accident and the nervous 
 strain caused by the fear of accident, is a third — I 
 could imagine such a man getting in such a condition 
 that it might be called an industrial disease? — Yes. 
 
 4682. And that becomes complicated by the fact that 
 a large portion of the disease is due to an anxious 
 desire to excel ? — ^Yes, or an anxious care over his 
 charge. 
 
 4683. For instance, you must have seen medical 
 students get a certain amount of neurosis from anxiety 
 over their examinations?' — Yes, at a certain time. 
 
 4684. But not so much as these engine drivers 1 — No. 
 
 4685. (Dr. Legge.) This is not a condition that men 
 would be likely to malinger? — They could not. 
 
 4686-7. And at the present time the railway com- 
 panies must give a number of these people holidays, 
 when they want them, and pay them during the time 
 they are away ? — Yes. At the time I wrote my paper 
 it was published, and the newspapers took notice of it, 
 I was told that the railway companies were far more 
 enamoured of my views than the railwaymen. The 
 railwaymen did not like it at all ; they thought we were 
 interfering too much with them. The railway com- 
 panies, ]ust as yoTi say, were very willing to do any- 
 thing in that way ; they admitted that I was right, and 
 they would be very willing to give them holidays. 
 
 4683. (Professor Allhutt.) Could you lay your hands 
 
 T 2 
 
148 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 Mr. A. Scott, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 on a number of these men — have you got their addresses 
 — because I think the Chairman would probably 
 authorise you to have their refraction tested ; in these 
 occupations there muet be intense fixation of sight? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4689. Unless their eyes are perfectly true, there must 
 be great optical strain ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4690. Especially if they are astigmatic? — Yes. 
 
 4691. And the strain may be very great? — Yes. 
 
 4692. It would be very important to have refractive 
 indices? — ^I would be very pleased if I could lay my 
 hands on them, but in my la«t case the man has not 
 called upon me for a good while. 
 
 4693. (fihairmin.) The next point we take is carbonic 
 oxide poisoning ; I am not going to ask you about the 
 immediate violent effects of the carbonic oxide which 
 really constitute an accident, and is therefore already 
 provided for under the Act ? — Yes. 
 
 4694. But I believe a certain amount of carbonic 
 oxide is found in ammonia works ? — Yes. 
 
 4695. How does that arise ? — In the manufacture of 
 ammonia ; it is fired by gas, and theire is a good deal 
 of it comes out. 
 
 4696. What we want to know is whether you can 
 give any evidence' to the effect that a chronic disease is 
 produced by this carbonic oxide ?^ — Not one case that 
 ever I knew. 
 
 4697. But you think, apparently from your notes, 
 that although the worker is thin and the skin presents 
 a withered appearance, his general health is not mate- 
 rially affected? — Not the slightest. 
 
 4698. Does he appear ansamic? — No, it is a kind of 
 smoky appearance his skin gets. It is not pure 
 ansemia, it is generally a yellowish dusky colour. 
 
 4699. You are sure that it is not due to the ammonia 
 instead of the carbonic oxide ? — No, I think not ; I 
 think in all the cases I have seen they were generally 
 firemen, and that was the colour they assumed, but 
 their health was not affected. 
 
 4700. But it might be the heat also?— Yes. 
 
 4701. Have you had any opportunity ol examining 
 the blood of any of these men ? — ^Yes, I have had. 
 
 4702. I mean a man in a chronic condition and not 
 poisoned suddenly ? — Yes. 
 
 4703. The question before us is whether a man who 
 works at this and is breathing very small quantities 
 — ^whether, if you examined the blood, it would show a 
 characteristic ? — I never did examine it. 
 
 4704. Perhaps you will get an opportunity of doing 
 one test? — Yes. 
 
 4705. Would you manage that for us? — ^Yes. 
 
 4706. Get a man whom you think would be affected 
 by what you might call chronic CO. poisoning, and 
 then examine the blood by a microscope ?: — Yes, I will 
 try that ; I will do my b^t. 
 
 4707. Then poisoning by nitrous fumes from the use 
 of explosives in coal mines, you are of opinion that 
 the effect is always a temporary effect? — ^Yes. 
 
 4708. There is no permanent disease? — No. 
 
 4709. Are you able to say definitely that there is 
 110 permanent disease ? — There is no permanent disease. 
 
 4710. Then with regard to dilatation of the heart? — 
 Well, I had those four beautiful cases I have already 
 ■mentioned arising from their work. 
 
 4711. What was their occupation ? Diseases for 
 ■which compensation is payable must be due to some 
 
 definite occupation. Compensation cannot be given to 
 every man who has got dilatation of the heart ; the dis- 
 ease must be due to the nature of his occupatiop?— 
 What I wished to bring before you was the cases I had 
 known of dilatation of the heart, which, to my mind, 
 were due to tlie occupation. 
 
 4712. What occupation was it? — ^The first one was 
 a miner. 
 
 4713. He was working too hard ; there was too great 
 exertion ? — No. Dilatation is usually due to a sudden 
 severe exertion ; he had a hutch which he was trying 
 to lift up on to the rails. 
 
 4714. But that is an accident, rupture has been held 
 to be an accident? — Well, that was the first case I 
 had. 
 
 4715. I think we might dismiss that as an accident, 
 or nothing ? — It was dilatation of the heart ; they are 
 all accidents in that case. 
 
 4716. Then I do not think we need deal with them. 
 
 4717. (Professor Allhtiii.) The cumulative effects of a 
 laborious occupation have not produced heart disease 
 in your experience ? — Never. 
 
 4718. (Dr. Leqge.) In these particular cases do you 
 know if they were treated as accidents, did the men 
 get compensation? — No, that is the sore point. 
 
 4719. You found on examination of the heart that 
 you could mark out the enlargement? — ^Yes. 
 
 4720. Did the man die within twelve months from it, 
 was it the cause of death ? — ^Yes, the first one. 
 
 4721.. Did he die within twelve months ? — Yes, and the 
 ■second died within t^welve months. The third was an 
 infirmary patient. 
 
 4722. Have you had experience of trade eczemas in 
 the match-box making, French polishing, aaid nickel- 
 plating trades ? — Yes, that is the whole three cases I 
 had. 
 
 4723. Did these produce permanent or temporary in- 
 capacity for work ? — ^Purely temporary. 
 
 4724. Of a grave character or not ? — The second case 
 af French polishing was very grave. 
 
 4725. Was it due to the turpentine or spirit ? — It ivas 
 due to a certain composition that had been sent to a 
 cabinetmaker's, with the result that when it was used 
 it caused this. Nobody knew what was the cause of 
 it, and the person who sold the material confessed that 
 he had changed it, and he had to pay the damages. 
 
 4726. But, still, it was eczema ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4727. And the worker would not have had diflSculty 
 in proving that it was due ■to his occupation ? — Not the 
 slightest. 
 
 4728. Do french polishers as a rule suffer from 
 eczema? — Not as a rule. 
 
 4729. There are definite cases ? — There are cases. 
 4730-1. Is there eczema caused in nickel-plating?— 
 
 Yes. 
 
 4732. Is that a regular thing ? — Yes, it is pretty fre- 
 quently found. 
 
 4733. And that incapacitates for work ?— Yes, that is 
 due to a varnish. 
 
 4734. Then in regard to match-box making? — ^Thatis 
 simply because it was the last subject of the lot ; it 
 was the dampness and constant chafing there. That 
 was the only case I saw there. 
 
 4735. I suppose we may say these are not very im- 
 portant cases? — ^Yes. 
 
 Professor Robekt M^dib, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Projeasor 
 JB. Muir, M.D. 
 
 4736. (Chairman.) You are a professor of pathology 
 in Glasgow University ? — Yes. 
 
 4737. You have come to speak to us with regard ■to 
 diseases of the lungs resulting from dust inhalation ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 4738. I presume you mean gritty du»t ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4739. Silicious dust?— Yes. 
 
 4740. You have nothing to say with regard to the 
 soft forms of dust? — No. 
 
 4741. It will be all gritty dust?— Yes, ordinary 
 silicious dust, and coal dust, of course. 
 
 4742. You have had experience chiefly from post- 
 mortem examinations, I believe? — -Yes. 
 
 4743. And during 15 years you have conducted no 
 less than 3,000?— About 3,000. 
 
 4744. Examinations of persons whose lungs have been 
 affected ? — ^No. 
 
 4745. 3,000 examinations altogether?— 3,000 post- 
 mortem examinations. 
 
 4746. And among those there have been a consider- 
 able number of cases of dust phthisis ?— Yes, there 
 have been. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 4747. And you can give us some statistics ? — With 
 regard to recent years I can. 
 
 4748. What are the kinds of dust in the first place 
 that you characterise as likely to produce these 
 diseases ? — Well, stone dust in general. 
 
 4749. That is silica in some form ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4750. Will pure coal do it witliout any silica mixed 
 -with it ?— It is very difficult to say ; we certainly 
 ind very extensive carbon deposit in the lungs with- 
 out any important change in the lungs. I think in 
 most cases there is an admixture of silicious dust with 
 -the coal dust in the cases where there has been any 
 serious change in the lungs. 
 
 4751. Are you in a position to say that coal dust 
 -alone would act as a centre of disturbance, set up 
 irritation — would coal dust alone without any silica 
 present set up what may be termed gritty phthisis ? — I 
 •think there is usually some silicious deposit along with 
 it. I would not be prepared to say that any very 
 serious change is produced by the coal dust alone ; you 
 do get sometimes small fibrous nodules, but it is diffi- 
 cult to say whether they are due to pure coal dust or 
 Tvhetber there ma.y not be something else. 
 
 4752; Is there much of this dust phthisis among coal 
 ■jniners? — Not so far as my experience goes. 
 
 4753. That accords with what we have understood, 
 -thait miners' phthisis will be found mostly in men who 
 .are working in the rock— silicious rook? — ^Yes. 
 
 4754. This dust phthisis is slowly developed and in- 
 sidious 1 — Yes. 
 
 4755. And preceded by chronic bronchial catarrh? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4756. What are the symptoms that you would expect 
 -to find ? — The symptoms are those of chronic pulmonary 
 -disease in general, such as coughing, shortness of 
 
 breath, etc. 
 
 4757. I suppose you need hardly des'cribe them, 
 tyecaus© they are extremely well known ? — Yes. 
 
 4758. Suppose that under the Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Act it were decided to compensate workmen who 
 had got dust but not those who had got merely tuber- 
 •cular phthisis, would you, as a doctor, distinguisi. 
 pretty easily between those two different kinds befora 
 •death — I mean between a man suffering from dust 
 phthisis and a man suffering from merely tuberculai' 
 -phthisis? — I am in a position to appreciate the clinical 
 -difficulties ; you are supposing that you have no infor- 
 mation as to the occupation of the man. 
 
 4759. We will take that first. Supposing a man 
 •came t-O' you and you found that his lungs were diseased, 
 -would you be able to say, " This man has grit phthisis " 
 or " This man has not got grit phthisis, but phthisis 
 due to another cause " ; would you be able by an 
 ■examination to say that, and if so in what cases ? — No, 
 
 I think that it is a matter of very extreme difficulty, to 
 differentiate between any fibroid change in the lungs 
 produced by some other cause and a fibrosis due to the 
 ■aust. 
 
 4760. An examination of the sputum would be one 
 anethod of getting at that ? — Partly. 
 
 4761. You would partly get at it that way P — Yes. 
 
 4762. And then by tapping the man I — The only oon- 
 ■clusion you can come to by -tapping is that he has 
 "fibroid disease of the lungs. 
 
 4763. Then if you know the history of his employ- 
 jnent ? — There would be strong presumptive evidence. 
 
 4764. Would there be practical difficulty in doctors 
 ■being able to distinguish between those eases that ought 
 "to be compensated as due to industrial employment and 
 "those that were due to other causes, hereditary causes 
 or causes other than the employment ?i--I do not think 
 it would be possible to be certain. 
 
 4765. I dO' not think anybody suggests that one could 
 l>e absolutely certain ; a jury are never certain in the 
 verdict they give; you must act upon a reasonable 
 degree of probability ? — ^I think, taking^ into comsidera- 
 "tion the employment of the person, the condition of 
 "the sputum, the presence of dust in the sputum, the 
 absence of tubercle bacilli, and the presence of fibrosis — 
 T think all these things together would constitute 
 Jairly strong presumptive evidence. 
 
 4766. But you could do fair justice between the 
 employer and the man — that is what' it comes to — in 
 putting down his disease to its right source, industrial 
 or not industrial ? — Well, on. the whole, I think you 
 
 would be wrong in a certain proportion of cases, but Professor 
 perhaps not a very large proportion ; you can come to B. Mitir, m,d. 
 
 the conclusion that the fibroid condition is present, and 
 
 after that it is pretty much a matter of inference. ^^ J""- ^^'^'^• 
 
 4767. There might be some fibroid condition even 
 with people who had not got their phthisis from an 
 industrial source? — ^Yes. 
 
 4763. But the fibroid condition would be an indica- 
 tion, at all events? — The fibroid oondition, of course, is 
 the immediate effect ; and then, of course, you may 
 have the tuberculosis superadded — ^it is very often 
 superadded. 
 
 4769. In other words, in such cases as I have men- 
 tioned it would not be impossible to do substantial 
 justice with the aid of experienced* medical men? — 
 Eeally, after all, it depends so much on the view you 
 take with regard -to the evidence necessary. 
 
 4770. I put it -to you in this way : supposing a law 
 were made thiat those men who, working in gritty 
 occupations, had caught grit phthisis, or become af- 
 fected with grit phthisis, should be compensated, and 
 those who had not got their phthisis from that cause 
 should not be compensated, the question is, could you 
 discriminate between the cases ? — I ask what you really 
 mean by grit pnthisis. 
 
 4771. Well, phthisis caught by reason of breathing 
 8-teel dust or silica dust ? — You mean the fibrosis ? 
 
 4772. Yes; well, fibrosis is almost a wider term; we 
 have used the term grit phthisis because there can be 
 no mistake .about -that ? — Grit fibrosis, perhaps. 
 
 4773. If you like ? — The important thing is the super- 
 addition of tubercle. 
 
 4774. Would it be possible in the main to do sab- 
 etantial justice between the employer and the man ; 
 could you undertake, in fact if you were invited to 
 give an opinion after seeing the men and having their 
 history and every information that was ava.ilable given 
 to you, -to say this man ought to be compensated and 
 that m'an ought not to be coimpensated ? — I think I 
 would be able, as you say, -to do' substantial justice. 
 
 4775. You have explained "to us that there are many 
 oases in which, you would feel a considerable doubt, but 
 in the great majority of cases you would be able to 
 discriminate with tolerable certainty ? — Of course, with 
 the ordinary practitioner the results might be different. 
 
 4776. But then the ordirLary practitioner would 
 learn ; having this task cast upon him, he would have 
 to discriminate much more than he has now, and he 
 would be aided, as the Act provides, by an appeal to a 
 specialist in cases of doubt ; lassuming him to be 
 assisted in doubtful cases by the very best talent that 
 ■Scotland could provide, you think that on the whole 
 substantial justice could be done? — rUiink substantial 
 justice might be done on the whole. The difficulty 
 would, however, be with cases of tuberculosis in stone- 
 masons where the signs of silicosis were not distinct. 
 
 4777. What are the statistics which you were going 
 to speak of? — It was just with regard to the relative 
 nuinber of cases. 
 
 4778. (Professor Allbutt.) Would you oblige us now 
 by giving us your experience of the relation of tubercle 
 to what we have been calling the grit phthisis 1 — ^Yes, I 
 think the common history is that the fibrosis and 
 fibrous nodules are produced by the inhalation of silicious 
 dust, that then the'luuigs are rendered thereby much 
 more sensitive to tubercle, and tubercle very often is 
 superadded. The patient dies either through silicosis 
 with complications or of tubercular phthisis of the 
 ordinary type. 
 
 4779. If a man was submitting himself to a process 
 of silicosis for some years, would it not be in a measure 
 some protection against tuberculosis whether in the 
 lung itself or in the system ? — I think I have seen more 
 than once acute tuberculosis superadded to chronic . 
 silicosis. 
 
 4780. You think that the protection by fibrosis is not 
 considc'rable ? — No, I do' not think it is* much. 
 
 4781. I suppose it is true that in a chronic case of 
 this kind lasting over 20 years, altho'Ugh tubercle may 
 be present, that the tubercle complication is compara- 
 tively small clinically ? — It may or it may not be ; in 
 some cases you may hav© only few nodules due to the 
 silicosis and an extensive tubercular change, or con- 
 versely you may have much structural lesion due to the 
 dust inhalation and a tubercular lesion of comparar- 
 ti^ly small extent. 
 
150 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Professor '^782. Supposing that you had 20 people eufiering 
 M. Jfuir.M.D. from silicosis, I suppose it would have a fairly equable 
 
 '. ' effect upon them all in respect of immunity — they would 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. be fairly equally susceptible ?— You mean that the 
 
 — effects of the inhalation of the duet on the lungs would 
 
 be fairly uniform. I should doubt that very much ; I 
 should think there would be considerable variations in 
 the effects — in the susceptibility. 
 
 4783. A good deal of variability 2— Yes, I think so. 
 
 4784. Do any extreme cases of pulmonary silicosis 
 find their way to the post-mortem table where there is 
 no tubercle ?^-Yes, one sometimes meets with such a 
 case. 
 
 4786. Can you give us any quantitative estimate 
 about that ; would you find a good many where there 
 was no tubercle? — I was rather surprised tO' find — I 
 went over my records for the last seven years — ^there 
 are about 1,500 cases of ordinary post-mortems, and 
 there are only six in which there are distinct lesions 
 sufficient to enable one to call thi3 case one of stone- 
 masons' lung or grit phthisis. There is one of acute 
 pulmonary tubercle, and I see three in all out of the 
 six had tuberculosis ; they died really from it. 
 
 4786. So far as small numbers go there would not 
 be tubercle perhaps in more than 50 or 60 per cent. ? 
 — Well, the other two have died from intercurrent 
 affections, so one can scarcely include them, and the 
 last one died from cardiac complications, breathless- 
 nesa, and oedema, no tuberculosis being present. 
 
 4787. There are, then, many cases — a substantial 
 number — of this chronic fibrosis without tubercle in 
 the lungs ? — ^A fair number ; the number who die with- 
 out tubercle is not very large I think — I mean where 
 the lungs show distinct silicosis without any tubercle. 
 
 4788. If you were put into a room with a certain 
 patient who had chronic pulmonary disease, and you 
 were only asked to examine him on that one occa- 
 sion, we can understand it might be exceedingly diffi- 
 cult in many cases to give anything like a discriminat- 
 ing diagnosis ; it would be very imperfect ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4789. I think to give an answer in a case of this 
 kind you must have full information that would in- 
 dude the whole of the man's past history of his ail- 
 ment, and so on ; in this- way it would appear tO' us that 
 a distinct diagnosis, judging from the evidence we 
 have had, might be made with a fairly high degree 
 of accuracy, if you knew everything that could reason- 
 ably be expected to be known. First of all, it is alleged 
 there is a very slow history with shortness of breath, 
 cough, and no fever over some considerable time, while, 
 on the other hand, there are extremely" ill-marked 
 physical signs for the stage which the disease has 
 attained, all of which makes a somewhat striking 
 difference from oases of ordinary tuberculosis? — ^You 
 are supposing a case without tubercular complication. 
 I should think that of oases of that kind the diagnosis 
 could be made correctly in a fairly large proportiont 
 
 4790. It is a different story, isn't it? — Quite. 
 
 4791. Especially when you have examined one or two 
 of these people? You have examined a good many? — > 
 Yes. 
 
 4792. Would you tell us the state in which the lung 
 is found in advanced cases of fibrosis? — There is very 
 often chronic pleurisy of a marked kind, there is more 
 or less thickening of the fibrous tissue all through the 
 lungs, and there are always focal lesions in the form of 
 
 fibrous nodules which usually have a distinctly gritty 
 character to the touch. Then in addition to that ther* 
 is not infrequently some dilatation of the bronchi witb 
 a certain amount of small cavity formation. 
 
 4793. Bronchial dilatations? — Yes. 
 
 4794. Not much true excavation ?— No. 
 
 4795. In which part of the lungs is that chiefly 
 conspicuous ?— I think it is pretty uniform in its dis- 
 tribution ; perhaps, if anything, it is more marked ia 
 the upper lobe, I think so, if anything. 
 
 4796. It is not found chiefly at the root, for in- 
 stance? — I do not think so. 
 
 4797. That being so, in a thick-chested, muscular 
 man, a man who works with his arms, it would be- 
 very difficult to find areas of tubercle? — Yes. 
 
 4798. We were informed by Dr., Glaister this morn- 
 ing that the position of a grinder in handling the stone- 
 is one in which he leans forward and so presses against 
 the stone, and he becomes fixed, as it were, in that 
 position, and this being so he finds it more and more- 
 difficult to make deep respirations ; have you any 
 information about that? — No. 
 
 4799. Then you may not have information about 
 what he went on to say, that it would make the man 
 more liable to suffer from irritant in the lungs, 
 owing to his low respiratory power, and so on, render- 
 ing him more subject ? — I suppose there is a possibility.. 
 
 4800. That is a little too refined ?— I think so. 
 
 4801. Then fibrosis of the lung is not frequent here? 
 — No,. I think not ; my impression is that it is fully 
 m6re frequent in Edinburgh. My impression is that 
 I had a larger proportion of cases in Edinburgh. 
 
 4802. Edinburgh is not a place where there are very- 
 many occupations involving dust? — ^There is a good 
 deal of stonet working. 
 
 4803. How do you think Glasgow stands as regards- 
 exposure to the inhalation of grit as a place of occu- 
 pation ? — I have no means of judging of that. 
 
 4804. Fibrosis, then, here is rather rare, in fact? — 
 Fibrosis due to that cause certainly seems to me to be- 
 comparatively rare. 
 
 4805. There is a great deal of difference between » 
 very chronic tuberculous case with no grit in compari- 
 son with a lung which has become fibroid from the 
 inhalation of grit? — ^Yes, so far as the pathological 
 appearances are concerned. 
 
 4806. You would have no difliculty in diagnosing ai 
 case of chronic tubercle ? — I think none whatever. 
 
 4807. There is a large amount of difference ? — Yes. 
 
 4808. You say that, as a rule, it is difficult, aii(J 
 in many cases impossible, to say to what extent the 
 disease is due to the inhalation of dust ; that is a 
 matter of evidence of a man's history, how he was 
 employed ? — ^Yes — I am speaking now from the clinical 
 point of view. 
 
 4809. (JDr. Zegge.) Have you had the opportunity of 
 making post-mortem examinations of the lungs of flax 
 workers ? — No, I think I have not had any cases. 
 
 4810. You do not know whether you could find fibrosifr 
 such as you have described as due to silicious dust itt 
 the lungs of flax workers ? — Of course, it is stated 
 that fibrosis does occur, but I cannot speak from 
 personal experience. 
 
 Mr. G-. LovELL G-tjllanh, m.d., r.B.c.p.E., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. O Z. 
 
 Gullandy 
 
 M.D., 
 
 r.E.c.P.E. 
 
 4811. (Professor Allbutt.) You are going to speak to 
 us about your Edinburgh experience? — Yes. Since I 
 wrote my prScis I have gone over a great deal of 
 clinical material and notes, and have much more to 
 say about the matter. I have been physician to the 
 Victoria Hospital for the last 10 years or so. We 
 have got an hospital where the phthisical cases are 
 taken in and treated, and then there is in addition a 
 very large out-patient dispensary. 
 
 4812. It is the same kind of hospital as the hospital 
 of Brompton? — Yes. I have seen probably about two- 
 thirds of the out-patients during the last 10 years, and 
 for the last four or five years about one-third of the in- 
 patients. I began by taking the histories of the in- 
 patients. 
 
 4813. You might tell us in the first instance what 
 
 occupations there are in Edinburgh or the district* 
 from which your patients are drawn which involve the' 
 inhalation of gritty dust ? — ^WeU, I confined myself to 
 masons altogeSxer ; I was asked to speak in regard to 
 masons, and I confined myself to them. I began with- 
 the in-patients. I took a large number of cases at 
 random, but I found that all of these had tubercle 
 bacilli in their sputum. I understood the gist of the- 
 inquiry would be as to whether the cases were tuber- 
 cular or not, and I found that all had tubercle bacilli' 
 m their sputum. I thought that would be of probable- 
 value from a discriminating point of view, so that I 
 have simply taken about a dozen or thirteen cases at 
 random and put down a sort of prScis of their history. ;; 
 
 *31\ These axe all stonemasons ?— Yes The only 
 poiat that cam© out as regards the hospital oases is tbaii 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 1^1 
 
 they did not improve so mucli under treatment as the 
 Average non-gritty case, and that all of them had a 
 comparatively long duratioia before they came into 
 hospital. Then I took up the out-patients, and I have 
 rtabuiated all the masons coming up in the last three 
 years without excepj^on. My reason for taking the 
 last three years w^as that before that time the sputum 
 was only examined in doubtful cases for diagnosis and 
 not as a routine. About three years ago the City of 
 Edinburgh instituted voluntary notification of phthisis, 
 and the sputum has been regularly examined with a 
 view to that since that time. Some of the cases in my 
 table were not examined, and the reasons for that were 
 Tarious, sometimes because they were country cases 
 ■where the patient simply came up to town for a day 
 .and went away again, and sometimes patients who 
 would not bring up their sputum or from whom the 
 nurse who is regularly sent to oversee the patients 
 ■could not get it, or again they were cases sent up by 
 •doctors for an opinion or cases for admission to hospital. 
 That explains the fact that a good many of them were 
 aiot examined. At least 17 of the unexamined cases 
 were quite definitely tubercular, I should say. The 
 total number of these cases is S3. Of these, two were 
 not cases of phthisis; one was a heart case, and the 
 other was a case of a syphilitic lung. That makes 51. 
 Of the 51 oases the sputum was examined in 29 cases, 
 and in 27 of these cases tubercle bacilli were found in 
 varying numbers. The table gives the actual number, 
 at least the approximate number. Then of the two cases 
 ■where the sputum was examined and tubercle bacilli 
 -were not found one was a very early apical case where 
 they would not probably have been found in any case, 
 and the other a case with a great deal of bronchitis, 
 .and of course in such cases it is very usual that bacilli 
 are often not found, or only found after repeated 
 ■examinatiorL My impression on going over the cases 
 ■which I have tabulated is that at least 17 of the un- 
 •examined cases were quite definitely tubercular — 
 .judging from temperature, history, and general 
 •symptoms, such as loss of weight, physical signs, and 
 ■so on — and possibly a larger number may have been. 
 
 4815. You mean primarily tuberculous?- — I do not 
 «ay primarily tuberculous. 
 
 4816. But infected with tubercle? — Yes, that is the 
 ■better way to put it. I was struck by the prepon- 
 ■derance of hewers — ^that is to say, actual stone-cuttens. 
 The oases have always been divided at -the dispensary 
 into builders and hewers, and of the whole 53 cases six 
 -only were builders, one a builaer and hewer. Of course 
 when masons are brought up in the country they very 
 
 •often have to do both parts of the work. This certainly 
 ■does not c<irr,e6pond to the proportions engaged in the 
 "trade, of course. 
 
 4817. What does the hewer do ; is it very fine stone 
 dressing? — I think in most casigs it is both fine and 
 ■coarse. 
 
 4318. What do you consider to be the injurious part 
 ■of the work — the injurious way in which he does it? — 
 Well, I think partly the cramped position, and partly 
 the fact that he is doing it in sheds where the dust is 
 ■allowed tO' accumulate. 
 
 4319. This kind of hewing he does chips off very 
 «mall particles? — ^Yes, and it is believed that the Edin- 
 burgh stone is worse in that respect than any other, 
 Tjecause it is a fine freestone and gives off a very dusty 
 grit. Then I went into the question of ages — I thought 
 ■that might be of importance, -too. The youngest case 
 was 18, but he had already been trea.ted for chest 
 mischief in the Sick Ohildren's Hospital as a boy, and 
 lie was already an advanced case when he came under 
 observation. He could not have done very much hewing 
 at 18, so that might be eliminated. The remaining 50 
 ■cases, according to ages, are as follows : — 20 to 30, eight 
 ■cases; 30 to 40, nine cases; 40 to 50, eighteen cases; 
 50 to 60, eleven cases ; and over 60, four cases ; so 
 that from 40 to 50 and from 50 to 60 are thetwo highest 
 figures. Then the question of duration of illness came 
 ■up before patients appeared at the dispensary, and I 
 ■found tJiat they varied too much to admit of very use- 
 ful tabulation. 
 
 4820. How did you try to ascertain duration ? — That 
 is regularly done in our case sheets. I brought some of 
 our case sheets here to show how it is done. We take 
 "the patient's age, height, weight, temperature, previous 
 health, family history, coughing, and so on. Then the 
 physical signs are marked iu according to a system 
 which we have elaborated. By duration I mean dura- 
 tion of symptoms. 
 
 4821. The patient would be asked how long he had a 
 cough ?— Yes, how long he had felt ill. Of course that 
 does not go for a very great deal. I found that 28 of 
 the cases had felt ill for a year or over, some consider- 
 ably over ; I mean there were some oases which felt ill 
 for several years — four years, three years, and so on. 
 
 4822. Have you any reason to suppose that those 
 men would ignore a very large part of the initiatory 
 stage of this condition?— I think so, because if you 
 compare the two tables of duration of illness and the 
 ■time O'ff work sometimes you will find a man has been 
 ill for four years and he has been off work two' weeks, 
 and it is quite usual to find that they have not sought 
 medical advice at all before coming tO' the dispensary. 
 
 4823. And there would be a long period when they 
 did not even trouble themselves about it ? — ^Yes. Then 
 the next point that I took up was family history, and 
 it is rather curious that the family histories are so 
 good of the whole 64 cases, including the ia-patie'nte ; 
 there is a history of phthisis in the family in only 11 
 cases. 
 
 4824. They come of families employed out of doors ? 
 — Not necessarily ; it does not absolutely follow. That 
 is not noted ; but in one case it is noted that the father 
 was a mason. 
 
 4825. Pereons engaged in outdoor pursuits are less 
 subject to phthisis? — Yes. As I have already said, 
 there was only history of phthisis in the family in 11 
 cases, and a possible history of infection from a family 
 friend in another. Of course these histories are not 
 always to be relied upon. 
 
 4826. It applies probably to their very immediate 
 relations ? — 'Ses, and not always in these cases are they 
 accurate. Then another point was temperature. In 
 the list of the cases there is noted which cases had a 
 temperature when they came up ; all the ot-hers which 
 are^ not nested are normal. 
 
 4827. Then you rather agree with the previous wit- 
 nesses that there is a great persistence oi normal tem- 
 perature among those people? — That is true to a 
 certain extent, but if you take the ordinary run of 
 cases that come up at the dispensary it is astonishing 
 how different the temperature is. 
 
 4828. I suppose many of th«'>n walk to the place? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4829. That does not raise their temperature ? — Very 
 often it does not raise their temperature. Of course it 
 is only the less aoute cases which come up. Then as 
 regards the symptoms and physical signs, the only 
 common point really among all the cases is that they 
 have a rather gradual onset and a rather long and 
 chronic course. I think if I were to^ take 50 cases at 
 random from another occupation than that I should 
 have found a rather shorter course before they sought 
 advice, and probably a more acute onset. That is my 
 impression, judging from the cases I have seen. I 
 heard what Dr. Muir said as to physical signs, but I 
 am very doubtful indeed whether you could draw any 
 real deduction from these as to the question whether a 
 man was tubercular or not. 
 
 4830. By that you mean whether he is permanently 
 
 tuberculous ? — Yes. 
 
 4831. You are speaking entirely all this time of the 
 consumption hospital ? — All those Edinburgh cases. 
 
 4832. I suppose that a man diagnoses himself to be 
 
 consumptive before he comes to your hospital ? — He 
 considers that he is suffering from some chief disease. 
 
 4833. A man who considered himself to be suffering 
 from an old wheezy cough and so on would go to the 
 general hospital? — ^No, they very often come to us. 
 There is a little difference in that way between the in- 
 patients in the hospital and the out-patients. The 
 in-patients are all tubercular, that part of it is a 
 hospital for consumption alone, but the out-patients 
 have any kind of chest ailment. 
 
 4834. Then there is no selecting process ?i — No. I 
 noted the jwint that masons are not immune to 
 ordinary phthisis, and some of the cases may be due 
 to that, and so on. 
 
 4835. {Dr. Leqge.) What is the distinction you draw 
 between a hewer and a buildeT? — ^It so happens that 
 in those in-patient cases the distinction has not been 
 made. Some of them are simply noted as mason, with- 
 out stating whether it is builder or hewei, but in the 
 case of the out-patients they are all discriminated. The 
 in-patients were cases t.aken from some time back, audi 
 could not get hold of anything more definite. ' Theu 
 
 Mr. G. L. 
 
 OuUand, 
 
 M.D., 
 F.R.C.P.E. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907 
 
152 
 
 MINQTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. a. L. 
 
 G-ulland, 
 
 M.D., 
 F.E.O.P.E. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907, 
 
 there is the further point that cases are prohably not 
 infected at their work with tuhercle, but most likely 
 in their own homes or elsewhere, and then there is 
 the other point which Dr. Muir also drew attention to. 
 In most of the earlier works on the subject it used to 
 be stated that grit phthisis was a basal phthisis, began 
 at the base of the lung, but that is not the case cer- 
 tainly as regards these cases ; these cases are prac- 
 tically all apical. A fair number of them, of course, 
 are basal as well, but there is always the apical mis- 
 chief to begin with ; I have not found a single case in 
 this lot where there is basal mischief alone. 
 
 4836. (^Professor AllbuU.) Can you tell us into- what 
 part of the lung youi think the grit is inhaled? — I 
 should fancy it is very much the same thing as with 
 ordinary phthisis ; it is subject to the same rules ; I 
 do not fancy the tubercular dust differs in that respect 
 from ordinary dust. 
 
 4837. Where the one goes the other goes ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4838. The same diffusion would cover both? — Yes. 
 
 4839. The mere gravity of the particles would not 
 make much difference, the mere weight of the particles 
 I mean ? — No'. I need not say anything about the 
 pathology, because Dr. Muir went into that very fully. 
 
 4840. Then it appears; that you would rather put it 
 in this way, that every case of chronic phthisis of the 
 kind we are speaking of, of stonemasons, is a com- 
 bination of mechanical irritation and tubercle ? — It 
 looks pretty like it. I started with the kind of im- 
 pression that I should find that probably about half 
 of them were, and her© there are 29 cases, 27 examined 
 and found to be tubercular, and they are by no- means 
 all the most advanced cases; for instance, tubercle 
 bacilli were found in a lot of early cases. 
 
 4841. Do' you think that the quantity of tubercle 
 bacilli in the sputum is of much importance, whether 
 there are very few or very many, as a diagnostic point 
 I mean ? — Of no importance. I do not think that very 
 much matters, because it is so often a question of 
 whether a focus has recently been opened into or 
 whether there happens to be a great deal of bronchitis 
 to dilute the sputum. It depends on a great many 
 factors of that kind ; if you find tubercle in the spxxtum 
 that is quite enough. 
 
 4842. The question is, which is the predominant 
 partner 1 — Yes. 
 
 4843. The mechanical irritation or the tubercle? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4844. In the case of those stone hewers, is it as a 
 matter of proportion that, say, in 80 or 90 per cent, 
 of cases you would be able to form a fairly good pre- 
 sumption as to whether it was in the main of 
 mechanical origin or tuberculous origin? — ^Well, I do 
 not think you could frankly, because I could take 
 these cases as regards the physical signs and parallel 
 them by 50 other cases taken almost at rajidom. 
 
 4845. You have every reason to suppose that what 
 you have said would probably apply to other ways of 
 getting dust? — ^Yes. 
 
 4846. You would expect to give us the same answers 
 if you wore examined in regard to grinders? — ^Yes, I 
 should think it would be extremely difficult to 
 distinguish between the two. Of course, if you 
 had a case of fibroid mischief, in which you found 
 dust of one kind or another in, the sputum, and 
 
 .over a certain period foTind no tubercle bacilli, I 
 think you would be entitled to regard that as grit 
 phthisis alone. My feeling is this as regards the ques- 
 tion of compensation : that if you make such cases as 
 these subjects for workmen's compensation, you are 
 going to penalise the employer for the habitsi of his 
 employee at home and for his family history, for his 
 surroundings, and so on. 
 
 4847. But at the same time jcm are strongly of 
 opinion of the occupatioai is very largely iconoemed 
 in the result ?i — Oh, yes. 
 
 4848. Although you cannot help us to establish a 
 working criterion? — I think the working criterion is 
 going to be eixtremely difficult. 
 
 4849. Supposing that I suggest to you that a man 
 had been employed in his work twenty years, that for 
 the first ten years he had not felt anything very much, 
 but perhaps would admit that he was getting rather 
 short of breath ; supposing the shortness" of breath and 
 cough increased upon Mm to a considerable extent, so 
 much so that he had been to his own doctor, and that 
 though his own doctor found very little physical signs 
 to account for the cough, that when he came under 
 
 your care you inferred a veiy large amount «l 
 fibrosis, that would be a strong p,resumptio.n that the. 
 case was due mainly to employment ?— Undoubtedly. 
 
 4860. The question is whether there are many such, 
 cases, or whether you think that of fifty people claim- 
 ing compensation there would only be of that failly 
 obvious kind a certain small proportion ?— -A email pwK 
 portion I should think only. 
 
 4851. A great many others would be common, 
 nhthisis ?— Yes. In going over these cases, and laying, 
 aside the early ones, where one would not expect to- 
 get cavity under any conditions, or very demonstrable 
 signsi of cavity, an enormous number have signs of 
 cavity ; that is to say, not a pure fibroid thing, bub, 
 an apical cavity, such as you get in ordinary cases .;t 
 tubercle. I now refer to a case of a hewer witk 
 phthisis, where there was marked dulness and flatten- 
 ing down the side, etc. 
 
 4852. The difficulty would not b© so much that of 
 determining that in a certain number of cases com- 
 pensation was due, for there would be a large number 
 of cases where it certainly was due, but in picking; 
 them out? — Yes. 
 
 4(853. (Dr. Legge.) The remark I would make with 
 regard to the case you have referred to is that thes- 
 patient was 30 years of age, and there was a duration.' 
 of nine months, and therefore his employment as a 
 hewea? could not have been very long ?— He would begin 
 as an apprentice, probably about 14. 
 
 4854. We have heard of very few cases of grinders" 
 phthisis where the patients were less than 35 or 3& 
 years of age %—l now refer to a case of a man of 43 years, 
 of age of very much the same class. The duration of 
 illness is put in as two months, but that is obviously 
 absurd. 
 
 4855. Have you any cases where the age is greater, 
 say over 40, where you have these marked symptoms? 
 
 , — ^Yes, here ie one of 43 with tubercle bacilli present. ^ 
 
 4856. You have not got down the duration of em- 
 ployment here? — ^No, these statistics were not, of 
 course, taken with a view to this inquiry, and I do not 
 suppose one could get these particulars. 
 
 4857. But still that is an item which would have to 
 be considered in eivery case where the question arose? 
 — Yes. Here is another case of 45 with low bronchial 
 breathing at both apices and the same behind, and 
 another of 52 with low bronchial breathing, another 
 of 35 with marked flattening of both sides, with cavities 
 and SO' on. Here is one of 37, and here is another one' 
 of 50 with low bronchial breathing, etc., and here is- 
 another of 48, the same thing, with marked dulness 
 and flattening down the side. 
 
 4858. (Professor Allbutt.) Don't you see cases ia 
 which there are rather advanced complaints, and yet 
 very inadequate physical signs? — It is rather the 
 other way. Our workmen in Edinburgh seem to go on 
 woricing until they drop ; it ie the commonest thing in 
 the world to find a man come up with that sort of 
 thing, not only stonemasonsi, with lungs absolutely 
 riddled with cavities, and to find he is working. 
 
 4859. (Br. Legge.) I suggest that posisibly the medical 
 man practising in the districts where these men livff 
 is perhaps more likely to come across the early con- 
 dition than you are at the general hospital ? — I do not 
 think so. One's experience is that the early cases are 
 very seldom made out. 
 
 4860. We had giving evidence before us yesterday, in 
 Wolverhampton, the doctor of a club, composed of 
 grinders in a large metal-grinding shop — and he was 
 quite satisfied himself that he could? — He would be 
 less likely to b© alive to it in a place like Edinburgh, 
 where there is not a great deal of that sort of thing. 
 I do not think the masons have a society of their 
 own ; they generally belong to Oddfellows, Foresters, 
 or something of that sort, and are scattered up amO'iif 
 different doctors, and I do not think one woxdd find 
 that the doctors would necessarily make out very early 
 cases. Of course, if a man came as a mason to them 
 for an opinion, possibly they would suspect it was s 
 case of masons' phthisis, but they might find it diffi- 
 cult to substantiate their opinions by actual physical 
 signs. 
 
 4861. (Professor Allbutt.) You made an allusion to 
 the somewhat fixed attitude of the stonehewer, • in 
 which he bends down to his work, keeping his chest 
 more or less rigid, which rather reminds me of what 
 was said by Dr. Glaister. He spoke of the same thing 
 in regard to the. grinders : that in handling the article 
 
, DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 153 
 
 thgy held their chs'St in an even more rigid attitude ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 4862. And he thought that the respiratory condition 
 of these men was very likely due rather to the fixation 
 of the chest than to any pulmonary deterioration. That, 
 of course, might be only a suspicion, but you made 
 .some allusion yourself to the same thing ? — Yes ; it 
 •does not hold with the hewer to quite the same extent 
 as with grinders, because their position is not so 
 .absolutely fixed ; they are moving about more. 
 
 4863. Do you think that fixation of the chest would 
 Tender them more liable to tuberculosis ? — I think any- 
 thing which interferes with the movement of the chest 
 •certainly would do so, and to that extent it certainly 
 -would, but I think it is hardly necessary to go so far, 
 liecause you have got the actual work of the stone, the 
 stone dust. 
 
 4864. But supposing that we take the tubercular 
 «lement into the case, that originally the chest con- 
 tracted tuberculosis independently of the grit part of 
 the business, we might still be approaching the ques- 
 tion of a trade disease, perhaps at a distance, but still 
 approaching it? — ^Yes. 
 
 4865. I suppose you have no information to enable 
 j-ou to know the proportion of phthisical hewers ? — I 
 have not particulars of that. 
 
 4866. Could you get it for us? — It would be very 
 difficult to get. I might get the phthisical incidence 
 in stonehewers in Edinburgh ; I oould easily get the 
 actual phthisis mortality among stonehewerst 
 
 4867. Oould you get the whole number of stone- 
 Siewers ? — No. 
 
 4868. Do they inhabit a certain quarter? — ^No, they 
 live all over the town. 
 
 4869. Then it would not perhaps be sufficient to get 
 the phthisical statistics of a certain quarter of the 
 town? — ^I do not think that at all, because in Edin- 
 Ijuigh, for instance, there are a great many districts 
 ■where workmen live, . and they are scattered pretty well 
 all over the town, and these men very often live near 
 their work, and if there was a new quarter being built 
 they are apt to move and go to it. 
 
 4870. They know it is an unhealthy occupation? — 
 They talk oi this as masons' trouble always. 
 
 4871. Does that lead them to take drink through 
 despair, or anything of that kind ? — No. 
 
 4872. They are quite cheerful about it? — ^Yes. 
 
 4873. They do not drink any more than other people ? 
 — No, I think they are a very steady lot, as far as I 
 inow them. 
 
 4874. I think there is another way possibly in which 
 you might get some information of the kind if you 
 happened to be acquainted with any contractors who 
 could say whether they have a very fair average of men 
 VTOPking in health between 40 and 60 years of age ? — 
 Yes, it so happens I do know some of the large 
 Imilders. 
 
 4875. And the men may break away about 50 ?— Yes, 
 1 could do that foT you. 
 
 4876. 35 to 50 is their worst age ? — I think so. 
 
 . 4877. That is rather a late incidence, isn't it, for 
 tuberculous phthisis ; but not so late as to make it 
 •definitely attributable to the employment ? — ^No. Of 
 ■course I know, quite well that there is an impression 
 that phthisis is a disease of young people, but that is 
 Tiot so ; .perhaps it is a little late, on the whole. 
 
 4878. You consider that it is a late development? — 
 Tes. I could get that from our statistics quite easily. 
 
 4879. (Dr. Legge. ) You pass over altogetHer the patho- 
 logical condition, but you get the opportunity, I sup- 
 pose, at the hospital, to make post-mortem examina- 
 tions frequently ? — Occasionally. 
 
 4880. And the description Professor Muir gives is 
 what you find in those stonemaso'ns ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 ' 4881. Do you know how this sickness is met now 
 amongst the men — ^I mean what method there is of pen- 
 sioning them off? — I do not know how it is done. I 
 have no information about that. 
 
 4882. {Professor Allbutt.) You will find that out for 
 US, if there iis a benefit society?^ — ^Yes, my impres- 
 sion is that there is not in Edinburgh. At any rate, 
 my impression is that they are scattered among their 
 own benefit societies — Foresters, Oddfellows, and all 
 the rest, and they come on the rates', and so on. 
 
 419 
 
 4883. [Dr. Legge.) It is possible that the Foresters 
 may refuse to insure the.m, as they do' refuse to insure 
 workers in dangerous trades, because of the danger of 
 their employment, or demand a higher premium? — I 
 can find out if there is any masons' society in Edin- 
 burgh, whether a higher premium is required, or 
 whether they refuse to insure. 
 
 4884. These stonemasons are em^ployed by some con- 
 tractor ; they are not their own masters ? — No, in most 
 cases they are in the employment of fairly large build- 
 ing firms. 
 
 4885. {Professor Allbuit.) We have not asked you 
 anything about the prevention ? — That is a very wide 
 subject. 
 
 4886. Could there be a stream of water thrown over 
 their stones, or could they wear respirators ? — I doubt 
 whether a stream of water could in all cases be carried 
 out, it would not be very easy where there was a large 
 building going up. It might be done, of course. That 
 certainly would help, and I fancy if the men would 
 wear respirators on their mouth and nose it would help 
 very much, but the class of men from whom these 
 hewers are drawn is not, as a rule, very intelligent. 
 
 4887. But still, if experts said that respirators were 
 necessary to prevent consumption they could scarcely 
 ask for coimpensation if they declined to use them? — • 
 That is so. ' 
 
 4888. This is a new subject ; you have not thought 
 about it? — ^I have thought about it a good deal. Then, 
 of course, there is the other point that if you go into 
 a place where a building is going on and look at the 
 temporary sheds which they have there, you find that 
 the dust is not swept up from day to day ; there is no 
 attempt made in most cases. I am talking of the 
 average. You find that they are very dusty, that the 
 dust iis stirred up by the men's feet as they work, and 
 the dust hangs on the tables. 
 
 4889. A fan might be put up, might it not? — I do 
 not know. That might help, of course, tO' a certain 
 extent, but with the men chipping the dust is actually 
 flying up at the moment, and they are very temporary 
 sheds they have. 
 
 4890. (Dr. Legge.) The one is constantly being evolved 
 and the other is only stirred up when they move? — 
 Yes, or when there happens to be wind. Of course, all 
 the sheds are open to the wind. 
 
 4891. {Professor Allhutt.) There is atmospheric sus- 
 pension? — ^Yes, there is a good deal of atmospheric 
 suspension.. 
 
 4892. {Dr. Legge.) 1 have heard it said that the 
 granite workers do not suffer? — That is said. 
 
 4893. You have heard the same thing? — Yes, it is 
 supposed not to be nearly so common in Aberdeen or 
 where they work with hard stones of the same kind as 
 granite, hard coarse stones. Edinburgh, for instance, 
 has always had the worst reputation since the subject 
 was first touched. 
 
 4894. {Chairman.) I am not sure that I understand 
 this table here. We have got a list of all masons 
 who were affected with phthisis during the last three 
 years ? — No, all masons who appeared. 
 
 4895. Of all kinds ?— Yes. 
 
 4896. Then it /ippears that a great many of these 
 have got phthisis — I mean either tubercular or some 
 other kind of phthisis ? — Practically the whole. I 
 think there are only two who have not phthisis of one 
 sort or another. Of course, .you must remember this is 
 a chest dispensary purely. 
 
 4897. That is to say, it is limited to what diseases ? — 
 To phthisis and bronchitis ; heart cases turn up also. 
 
 4898. If we take some other trade, not that of stone- 
 mason, but some totally different trade that was 
 not liable to grit phthisis, we would not find such a 
 tremendous proportion of phthisis in that trade as we 
 do here. Can you name to me another trade that 
 oomeis a good deal to your hospital ; take a trade that is 
 not much connected with gritty dust? — For instance, 
 there are rubber works. 
 
 4899. India-rubber works? — ^Yes, there are large 
 rubber factories in Edinburgh. 
 
 4900. Supposing that we had got an equal number 
 of india-rulbber wodiers, should we find such a largo 
 proportion of phthisical people among them as we 
 find among masons ? — No, I think you would find that 
 a good many of them came up for some trivial thing. 
 
 U 
 
 Mr. G. L. 
 
 GuUand, 
 
 M.D., 
 
 F.R.C.P.E. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
154 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENX'E : 
 
 Mr, G. L. 4901. That is an indication, at all events, that a 
 OiUland, good deal of this must be industrial? — I cannot be abso. 
 M.D., lutely sure about that. 
 
 F E C P E 
 
 ■ " ■ 4902. Supposing you were asked this question, and 
 16 Jan^l907. were compelled to answer it one way or the other, 
 
 whether you liked it or not, how many of these people 
 
 would you put down, what proportion — I do not say 
 this or that particular man — but what proportion of 
 these cases do you think is due partly or wholly to 
 the industrial condition — what percentage? — I should 
 think probably a quarter of the cases in the taj>le are 
 not. 
 
 4903. A quarter would have got it in any case? — 
 Under any other conditions. I am perfectly willing 
 to admit that the stone has a great deal to do with it. 
 
 4904. These are not all your examinations, I sup- 
 pose? — No, I should say about half of them are mine. 
 
 4905. Supposing you had examined those cases and 
 they had been ticked off as Workmen's Compensation 
 Act cases, or not Workmen's Compensation Act cases, 
 supposing it had been necessary to do that, do you 
 think that the quarter that are clearly not Workmen's 
 Compensation cases could have been ticked off with some 
 degree of accuracy ? If you had all those cases to look 
 over again before you now, and could go through them, 
 bearing in mind your opinion that probably about a 
 quarter of them ought not to receive compensation, do 
 you think you oould have distinguished them pretty 
 well? — I think that would be pretty difficult. May I 
 put it in this way, that in a very large number of the 
 cases the grit is at the bottom of the phthisical process 
 in the lung, that it is the starting-point, but I should 
 fancy that the tubercle comes in very early in the 
 great majority of cases, that the secondary infection 
 IS much earlier than you would gather from the text- 
 books on the subject. 
 
 4906. Yes, but I was asking you a question more 
 from a general point of view. Would you have been 
 able to pretty well tick off the three-quarters that ought 
 to be considered as industrial, and distinguish them 
 from the quarter that ought to have been considered 
 as non-industrial? — ^Yes, I think one could probably 
 in individual cases get at a kind of notion. Of course, 
 I fancy one would always be inclined to lean to mercy's 
 side, I mean for the workman. 
 
 4907. Apart from that, take a man who was not 
 leaning tO' m«Tcy's side, but who was exercising hia 
 judigmemt as fairty as he could, the question is not 
 what his failing in judgment might he, but whethor, 
 upon the whole, he could dO' substantial justice be- 
 tween the employer and the workman ; because, of 
 ooTirse, it is hard on the employer that a ma.n 
 who has not caught a trade disease has to be compen- 
 sated, on the other hand, of course, it is equally hard 
 on the workman to receive no compensation, if the 
 disease he has contracted is really a^ trade disease. 
 One has got to do as a judge has to' do every day in the 
 courts, not ideal justice, but the best justice one can. 
 The question is, whether you would pronounce it im- 
 possible tO' do, on the whole, substantial justice, or do 
 you think that a tolerably fair attempt could be made 
 which would not be upon the whole unjust, supposing 
 that you had every information that you were likely to 
 get, and a further right to interrogate the workman 
 and to compel him tO' answer every question which you 
 chose to ask — you must assume that you had the powers 
 of a judgie — assuming too that you could compel him 
 to go into his whole history, and that any question 
 which you chose to ask had got tO' be answered by both 
 parties? — And! that one was entitled to examine his 
 sputum on every occasion 1 
 
 4908. Yes, assuming that you had authority to do 
 anything you liked and get any information that was 
 available, and to compel any and every person to 
 answer?— I think in that case one could do it in a 
 fair proportion of cases. 
 
 4909. If so, and if it is admitted that a large num- 
 ber of these cases are industrial cases, and there is no 
 insuperable difficulty of administration, that ought to 
 make us not hesitate to put phthisis down as an in- 
 dustrial disease. At least that seems to follow from 
 your answer, that tolerable justice, could be done?' — • 
 Yes ; of course, it depends very much on what view you 
 take of the ground on which workmen's compensation is 
 to be given. That, I think, is the real difficulty. 
 
 4910. One would say that a man should be oompen- 
 eatedi where the disease is entirely or in the main 
 caused by the occupation — ^I am putting it nO'W a 
 little differently — where, upon the whole, you would 
 
 have said that but for that occupation the proba- 
 bility is that the man would have gone through life- 
 without phthisis, or that he would have had such a. 
 slight touch as would not incapacitate him — put it: 
 another way, where, his incapacity was due to the occu- 
 pation ? — Well, if yon put it in that way, I think on& 
 must say that you oould probably do justice, because* 
 you would always ha.ve at the back of your mind the> 
 knowledge that the man's lungp had been irritated by 
 the occupation. I now take a case at random of a young; 
 man of 20 years of age, and I say that is not a com- 
 pensation case. My reasons for saying that that is not, 
 a compensation case are the boy's age, the fact that it, 
 is evidently old standing mischief, in all probability it 
 had been going on for a considerable length of time, 
 and he has not been at the trade long enough. 1 now 
 take another case at random, where the age is 37.. 
 That, I should think, would be a compensation case, 
 provided the man had been a sufficient number o£ 
 years a mason. 
 
 4911. But you would have a right, I am supposing,. 
 of inquiring minutely from him every place he had 
 been to, where he had worked and all other particulars,, 
 and you would have ample tirre to do it ; it would be a 
 business which would have to be thoroughly gone into ?" 
 — I think one could say in that case that it was possible.. 
 
 4912. Then it looks to me as if the Act, though 
 difficult to administer, would be axiministrativeljr 
 possible; ,it would be possible to administer this Act; 
 the doctors would be acting chieily between the insur- 
 ance companies and the men really P^Yes, that would 
 be so. 
 
 4913. With an arbitrator besides? — Yes. 
 
 4914. I am proposing the most skilful arbitrator ia 
 those matters that you could get in Scotland being 
 called in in cases where there was a serious dispute?— 
 Yes, quite. 
 
 4915. I mean if the two parties were not content 
 with the decision of the first man there would be the' 
 power to have an arbitrator, the best man that could 
 be got ; it looks to me as if it would be possible to. 
 administer this ? — Well, yes, if you put it in that way. 
 
 4916. That is the way I wish to put it ? — The thing 
 that occurred to me originally was that you were going 
 tO' have very considerable difficulty with the complica- 
 tion of the tubercle bacilli, but if you put it like that I 
 think it is feasible. 
 
 4917. What do you mean by "cause" ; I suppose aa 
 arbitrator could give a commonsens© interpretation of 
 the word cause that would, upon the whole, cause 
 justice to' be done, a fairly rough justice between the 
 men and their masters and the insurance companies, 
 the intention being to compensa/te people who had been 
 injured by the disease ? — Yes, quite. 
 
 4918. You would agree to the possibility of that?— 
 Yes, I think it would be possible. 
 
 4919. One of the gentlemen called before us said tha* 
 in the case of phthisis that was caused by dust therff 
 would not be a rise of temperature ; it is not sufficiently 
 distinctive to. be a, real criterion? — No, some of these 
 cases have temperature. 
 
 4920. (Professor Alllutt.) With regard to the ques- 
 tion of a referee in cases of this kind, I suppose it 
 might be that medical men who are continually 
 practising among these people might collect som« 
 information, and be able tO' formulate some difference 
 between the cases in which compensation woidd be pay- 
 able aaid] those in which it would not be payable?— 
 Well, I am doubtful whether you would take the ques- 
 tion of compensation so' much on the actual physical 
 signs as on the history. 
 
 4921. To differentiate between cases which are chiefly 
 due to occupation or chiefly to other conditions?— I 
 think that would be rather a question of history than 
 of physical signs. I do not think that you could on the 
 physical signs; but takiog those two cases I took, I 
 would have mad© one a compensation case on th« 
 history practically and the other non-compensation. Of 
 course, you would have to make out firs^t of all that the 
 man had definite changes in his lungs. 
 
 4922. (Chairman.) With regard to those casea where 
 compensation was to be paid upon death, after the 
 death there would be lees difficulty than ever, where 
 you could get an examination of the lung ? — Yes. 
 
 4923. Do you think that, if you had the full histo^ 
 of the case, the matter would present no great aJ»* 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 155 
 
 <Eiilty? — After deatli I think practically no difficulty 
 *t all, provided you were able to make a post-mortem. 
 
 4924. (Br. Legge.) I have seen that some of the 
 ■woirkers who attend as out-patients at the Koyal 
 Infirmary at Edinburgh are put down as suffering from 
 Tubher workers' anaemia; have you any knowledge of 
 what is meaaxt by that P — Not as an actual entity, I 
 Ttihink. A good many of them are anaemic ; of coui-se a 
 •great many of them are chlorotic girls. 
 
 4025. At the precis© agie that they would be chlorotic 
 :in any case? — ^Yes, and some of the men ar© ansemic. 
 J remember thinking about that the other day. I was 
 •trying to find out for myself ■wihich particular branch 
 or whetlier it had any particular connection with any 
 j)articular branch of the work, but I could not make 
 it out. Of course there used to be a good deal of bi- 
 sulphide of carbon, and so on. 
 
 4926. Which is not used at all now? — I saw a good 
 many cases of that kind at one time, but I do not think 
 canyon© can differentiate any special anaemia. 
 
 4927. {Chairman.) I suppos© there is no method of 
 using Rontgen rays or anything of that kind by which 
 you can tell the difference between an industrial case of 
 phthisis and the other ; you could not see anything P — 
 No, you could not; my experience of Rontgen rays in 
 the way of examining chest conditions is distinctly dis- 
 appointing. At on© time one of my assistants at the 
 Victoria Infirmary was very much interested in the 
 question of X-ray diagnosis, and w© took a series of 
 "caees, twenty or thirty. I marked out the physical 
 signs as I thought them from ordinary examination, and 
 he X-rayed them, and I think we found, generally 
 speaking, that I was nearer th© probabl© mark. 
 
 4928. There is one thing I suppose we might say ; if 
 st became necessary to make this discrimination ia 
 th© case' of masons and grinders and other people, 
 no doubt if medical science had its attention directly 
 turned to this point, if the whole attention of the 
 practitioners in Scotland was directed upon it, it would 
 result in a better means of discrimination probably than 
 we possess at present, the science of discriminating 
 between industrial phthisis and ordinary phthisis would 
 Tery much improve by practice P — I do not think you 
 ■may put it in that way ; I do not think you can actually 
 ■discriminate between industrial phthisis and the other 
 phthisis. 
 
 4929. I will say then, discriminate between cases 
 that ought to be compensated and those that ought 
 not ? — I think you could do that. 
 
 4930. Practice would make it more perfect? — I think 
 it is more a question of history tJian of physical signs. 
 •Crrit gives rise to bronchial catarrh, it gives rise to 
 ifibrous tissue, it wounds the walls, and tubercle bacilli 
 iget a more ready entrance. 
 
 4931. (Professor AllhuU.) It depends on the indi- 
 ■ridual proclivity how fast it goes? — Yes. 
 
 The witness has since forwarded to the Secretary 
 the following additional evidence, which he desires 
 to lay before the Committee : — 
 
 ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE. 
 
 A certain amount of statistics asked for by the Com- 
 mittee I have not been able to get, for I find that 
 the secretaries of the Friendly Societies in Edinburgh 
 are not very good at answering letters. I have ascer- 
 tained, however, that no extra premium is demanded. 
 Irom masons insuring in these. I have found it im- 
 possible also to get any trustworthy statistics of the 
 number of masons employed in Edinburgh, or of those 
 infected with chest disease. I think this can only be 
 done by someone possessing Government powers to get 
 information. 
 
 With regard to additional facts from the Victoria 
 Hospital, the following may be of interest : — The total 
 number of patients who attended the out-patient de- 
 partment up to the 31st March, 1906, was 15,452 in- 
 dividual cases. Of these 575 are masons. This num- 
 ber is nearly approached by the carpenters and 
 joiners, who number 495, clerks, etc., 477, and sur- 
 passed by labourers 1,021, domestic servants 597, and 
 enormously by housewives, 5,149. I enclose a portion of 
 the report bearing upon this. Table 4, which shows 
 the ages of those patients, indicates that while the 
 decades most affected among masons are from 30 to 40, 
 and from 40 to 50, the decade showing the highest in- 
 «idence among the general patients is from 20 to 30, so 
 that the incidence among masons is apparently a late 
 one. 
 
 419. 
 
 II. OUT-PATIENT DEPARTMENT. Mi'. G. L. 
 
 Up to 31st March, 1906, 15,452 individual cases re- ^"'"'^^'^' 
 ceived treatment at the out-patient department. f.r.c.p.'e. 
 
 Table I.— Showing attendances from 31st March, 1905, 16 Jan. 1907 
 till 31st March, 1906. 
 
 
 At 
 
 At their 
 
 Total. 
 
 
 Institution. 
 
 own Homes. 
 
 April - 
 May 
 
 1,169 
 
 159 
 
 1,328 
 
 1,291 
 
 152 
 
 1,443 
 
 June 
 
 1,267 
 
 149 
 
 1,416 
 
 July . - 
 
 1,115 
 
 107 
 
 1,222 
 
 August - 
 
 1,301 
 
 146 
 
 1,447 
 
 September - 
 
 1,075 
 
 120 
 
 1,195 
 
 October 
 
 1,157 
 
 112 
 
 1,269 
 
 November 
 
 982 
 
 169 
 
 1,151 
 
 December 
 
 1,120 
 
 159 
 
 1,279 
 
 January 
 
 1,230 
 
 159 
 
 1,389 
 
 lebruary 
 
 1,143 
 
 145 
 
 1,288 
 
 March - 
 
 1,424 
 
 173 
 
 1,697 
 
 
 14,274 
 
 1,750 
 
 16,024 
 
 Visits paid by i urse 1,545 
 
 Number of sputa examined - 389 
 
 Table II. — Showing Diseases from which Patients 
 Suffered. 
 
 Pulmonary tuberculosis 10,824 
 
 Bronchitis - - • 1,406 
 Emphysema, with bronchitis, asthma, 
 
 etc. - - - 617 
 CEdema of lungs, with or without bron- 
 chitis, weak heart, etc. 341 
 Capillary bronchitis 20 
 Injury to chest and hernia of lungs 11 
 Croupous pneumonia - - 14 
 Pleura, affections of - 291 
 Larynx, affections of - - 245 
 Affections of related organs, etc. - - 1,683 
 
 15,452 
 
 Table IH. — Showing Occupations of Patients. 
 
 Artists .... 29 
 
 Athletes - - - - 3 
 
 Bakers - . . ■ . 155 
 
 Blacksmiths - - - 113 
 
 Bookbinders and folders - 217 
 
 Brassfinishers - - 104 
 
 Butchers - - - 59 
 
 Cabmen and grooms - . . 159 
 
 Carpentera, joiners, and woodworkers - 495 
 
 Car conductors and drivers - - 12 
 
 Charwomen - - - 145 
 
 Chemists - - - - 24 
 
 Children (below fifteen) - 1,749 
 
 Chimney sweeps ... 7 
 
 Clerks and warehousemen ... 477 
 
 Coal miners and workers - - 156 
 
 Comb and brush makers - - 24 
 
 Confectioners ..... 23 
 
 Coopers .... - 8 
 
 Oorkcutters ..... 15 
 
 Dairymen ...... 10 
 
 Domestic servants - - 597 
 
 Engineers and enginemen ... 253 
 
 Farm servants ..... 32 
 
 Firemen ...... 43 
 
 Fishermen and sailors - - - . 72 
 
 Fishwomen 48 
 
 Fitters and riveters .... 53 
 
 Gardeners and farmers - - . . 69 
 
 Gatekeepers and messengers - - 84 
 
 GlasscutteiB and grindeis - - - 38 
 
 Glaziers and gilders - - . . 27 
 
 Golf-club makers . - - . . 4 
 
 Grocers ..... g2 
 
 Guards 27 
 
 Gunmakers H 
 
 Hairdressers - - - - - 61 
 
 Hawkers ...... hq 
 
 Hosiery workers ..... g 
 
 Housewives - .... 3 149 
 
 Insurance agents and commercial 
 
 travellers - - . . . 155 
 
 Ironmongers and typefounders - . 148 
 
 V 2 
 
156 
 
 MINUTES OF evidence: 
 
 llr. G. L. 
 Gulland, 
 
 M.D., 
 F.E.C.P.E. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 Jewellers and watchmakers - - - 49 
 
 Labourers - . - - 1,021 
 
 Laundresses ... 117 
 
 Leather workers - . . . 16 
 
 Librarians .... - 2 
 
 Lithographers 33 
 
 Lorrymen and carters - - 158 
 
 Maltmen 41 
 
 Masons .... 575 
 
 Millworkers - - - - - 301 
 
 Musicians - ... 21 
 
 Nondescript - - 885 
 
 Opticians - - - - 2 
 
 Paper bag makers ----- 59 
 
 Paper cutters .... 54 
 
 Painters 149 
 
 Plasterers 49 
 
 Plumbers . . . - - 88 
 
 Policemen and watchmen - - 34 
 
 Porters 146 
 
 Postmen, lamplighters, etc. - - 39 
 
 Printers, compositors, etc. - - - 380 
 
 Railway servants ----- 65 
 
 Riggers . . - - 4 
 
 Rubber workers ----- 251 
 
 Salesmen ------ 213 
 
 Saleswomen - - 242 
 
 Scavengers - - - - - 17 
 
 Sealing-wax maker - 1 
 
 Seamstresses and dressmakers - 325 
 
 Shoemakers - ... 146 
 
 Sick nurses - - - 49 
 
 Slaters - - ... 38 
 
 Soldiers 37 
 
 Spinners - - - 10 
 
 Stokers - ... - 16 
 
 Students - - - 16 
 
 Surveyors - - - 4 
 
 Tailors and hatters ... 316 
 
 lannens and curriers - - 27 
 
 Teachers - - - 72 
 
 Tinworkers - - - 62 
 
 Upholsterers 41 
 
 Van drivers ..... 18 
 
 Vulcanite workers - - 8 
 
 Waiters - - - 140 
 
 Weavers .... 42 
 
 W^ireworkers - - 26 
 
 15,452 
 
 Table IV. — Showing Ages of Patients. 
 
 From— 1-10 
 „ 11-20 
 „ 21-30 
 „ 31-40 
 „ 41-50 
 „ 51-60 
 
 Above 60 
 
 1,105 
 3,321 
 4,438 
 3,145 
 1,916 
 962 
 565 
 
 15,452 
 
 Table V. — Showing Sex of Patients. 
 
 Males 
 Females ■ 
 
 8,416 
 7,036 
 
 15,452 
 
 The incidence of mortality among masons is worked 
 out fully in Dr. J. 0. Dunlop's " Supplement to the 
 Forty-eighth Annual Report of the Registrar-General 
 in Sooitlajid," 1905. I would refer to pp. 37, 69, 127, 
 133^ and 135 in particular. The report is very valuable, 
 
 inasmuch as it contains not only> the Scottish studies, 
 but abstracts of previous English and foreign ones. 
 The group of builders, masons, and bricklayers is; 
 found to have in both, age periods ^45 and 46-65) 
 death rates higher than those of " all males." _ Death, 
 rates from tubercule, pneumonia, and bronchitis ar* 
 high. Thus the " all males " death rate from tubeaxile- 
 is 267 per 100,000, that of this trade group 586 ; from 
 pneumonia, the "all males" 165, masons 213; from 
 bronchitis, the " all males " 99, masons 186. 
 
 Judging from these death rates my estimate in. 
 answer to Question 4902, that a quarter of the masons, 
 would in any case have taken phthisis, is probably too. 
 low, a half would be more nearly accurate. 
 
 With regard to the general question w'hether 
 phthisis in masons should be made a subject of; com- 
 pensation, the following conditions suggest themselviesi 
 to me. In all probability the Committee has already 
 entertained them also, but I feel it right to allude to. 
 them. 
 
 Judging from my experience, and from the statistics 
 which, I have quoted, it may be assumed as practically 
 certain that all cases of masons' phthisis are tuber- 
 cular sooner or later, and that in all probability the^ 
 tubercular infection occurs early in the oondition, and 
 is responsible for most of the destructive changes in 
 the lungs. If that be assumed, it follows that a great 
 many other factors besides the occupation are of im- 
 portance in the condition — family history, general 
 physique, the diseases of childhood, home surround- 
 ings, habits as to food, and especially drink, the occur- 
 rence of debilitating diseases such as influenza, chronic 
 gastric catarrh, etc., the possibility of infection at 
 home or from sick friends, and many mo!re. These 
 questions do not come into play in regard to ankylbe- 
 tomiasis or anthrax, for instance, or at any rate not 
 nearly to the same extent. 
 
 In judging of the suitability of individual cases for 
 compensation during life all these questions will have 
 to be considered, for I have pointed out that physical 
 signs alone do not enable one to say whether stone 
 dust has played a part in causation. Phthisis is a 
 disease of such extreme variability in its course, anJ 
 often of such long duration, that one might have in a 
 given case to go back five, ten, or more years to find out 
 how it was acquired. Even assuming that a patient 
 desired to give truthful answers, there are few people in 
 the class to which these men belong whose memories 
 are to be trusted over that length of time, and every 
 physician knows how apt patients are to forget, or to 
 conceal, essential facts in their history. Patients in 
 that class, moreover, hardly ever have any idea of the 
 diagnosis that their medical attendant makes of their 
 diseases, and often begin work or continue at it in. 
 defiajioe of advice when they are in a vulnerable con- 
 dition. How can such a fact be asicertained years after- 
 wards? In the same way men with weak chests or 
 with bad family histories may take up mason work. 
 
 It will, in the great majority of cases, be impossible 
 to say at what time the disease started, partly because 
 of the reasons given, partly because of the extremely 
 chronic form that phthisis often assumes, and the fact 
 that it may often be dormant for long periods. The 
 men move about from place to place, and are often 
 employed by many masters in succession. It is 
 obviously absurd and unjust that the master in whose 
 employment the man happens to be at the time when 
 the disease is discovered, incapacitates him from work, 
 or causes death, should pay compensation for a condi- 
 tion contracted years before, under a master who is 
 perha,js dead or not to be traced. It may be said that 
 the liability will fall upon insurance companies. I 
 had at one time a very large experience of employers' 
 liability insurance, and I feel pretty sure that the com- 
 panies will not be slow to lay hold of a flaw of this 
 kind. The same difficulty will arise if the compensa- 
 tion is delayed until death has occurred. 
 
 Mr. Akdbew Lees Bell, m.d., d.p.h., called' and exatmined. 
 
 Mr. A. L. 
 JBeli, M.D., 
 
 D.P.H. 
 
 4932. {Chairman.) You are in practice in Glasgow ? — I 
 am in practice in Dunfermline, the industrial capital 
 
 of Fife. 
 
 4932.* Tou propose to give us evidence regarding the 
 diseases to which miners are liable 7 — Yes. 
 
 4933. I suppose that it is coal-mining that you are 
 going to deal with ? — Yes. 
 
 4934. Exclusively coal-miners? — Yes, exclusively 
 coal-miners. 
 
 4935. ■ What coal fields is it ; it will be the coal fields 
 immediately round Fife ? — Around Dunfermline and in 
 Fife. 
 
 4936. You mention among the diseases that you are 
 inviting us to consider, nystagmus, miners' bronchitis, 
 ankylostomiasis, and then in addition to that there 
 are miners' elbow, miners' knee, and beat hand ? — Yes. 
 
 4937. These are the six ?— Yes. 
 
 ' 4938. The first thing we might deal with is minerf 
 nystagmus ; have you seen cases of that ? — Yes, many. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 157 
 
 4939. A good many P — Yes. 
 
 4940. What are the general features of it ? — The oscil- 
 lation of the eye. 
 
 4941. What proportion of men get it out of 100 men ? 
 -I should say about three or four. 
 
 4942. It is not a widespread disease then? — No, 
 nystagmus is a small thing, and it does not incapaci- 
 tate materially for the work of ooal-mining. 
 
 4943. It will incapicitate a man for a few weeks, do 
 you mean — say a week or two, and then he will come 
 back again ? — Yes ; only in the most severe cases of 
 nystagmus would I say that the man was incapacitated 
 for his work. 
 
 4944. Do they come upon the funds of any of the 
 benefit societies for nystagmus at present? — ^Yes, they 
 come when they are incapacitated from any cause. 
 
 4945. But cases of nystagmus are recognised by the 
 benefit societies, and paid for ? — ^If the medical of&cer 
 signs that they are unfit for work. 
 
 4946. It has already been treated by the benefit 
 societies as a recognised cause of disability? — Yes, it 
 is a cause of disability, but not pura and simple ; only 
 when it is associated with dimness of vision, and only 
 in the chronic cases — ^long-standing cases. That is to 
 say, a minei may have it for many years in a moderate 
 form, and yet he may keep at his work without losing 
 aiday, but in the aggravated forms of it, where th© 
 eye is very badly oscillating and where the optic 
 nerve has become affected and the muscles of the eye 
 ■weakened very much, then he would stumble at his 
 work, and would be unable to continue at it until ho 
 had several weeks' rest. 
 
 4947. Then I understand that it is only in the rather 
 aggravated cases that you suggest that compensation 
 should be payable ? — Quite. 
 
 4948. Not in the merely incipient cases ? — No. 
 
 4949. It is in the aggravated cases that the miners 
 are asking for compensation? — Yes, long-standing 
 cases. 
 
 4950. Are you here on behalf of the Miners' Federa- 
 tion? — ^Yes ; I am sent to give evidence on behalf of 
 the Scottish Miners' Federation. 
 
 4951. And therefore you are able to express what 
 their views are ? — Yes. 
 
 4952. I may put it more strongly, and say that you 
 are here to represent that it is in the severer cases of 
 nystagmus that compensation is really asked for ? — Un- 
 doubtedly. 
 
 4953. As incapacitating for work?— Yes, only the 
 severer cases. 
 
 4954. Supposing the Committee were in favour of 
 including the severe cases in the third schedule to the 
 Act ; supposing they should arrive at that conclusion 
 after hearing all the evidence, how do you suggest it 
 could be described? You could not write down " nys- 
 tagmus " simply, because everybody who had a twitch 
 in the eye would come in ?— I should say an expert in 
 eye diseases would be required to give a certificate on 
 Boul and conscience that the man was unable to do 
 work owing to nystagmus. 
 
 4955. We should require to call it severe nystagmus, 
 or something like that?— If it incapacitated him for 
 work it would be severe; only a severe form could 
 incapacitate him. 
 
 4956. You aire not asking for anything except that 
 compensation is to be given when the man really can- 
 not Work ?— Yes ; and only on expert medical evidence. 
 
 4957. W© might paiss from that for a moment to 
 miners' bronchitis. That is a little more difficult, I 
 suppose? — It is. 
 
 4958. Because I might get bronchitis or you might 
 get bronchitis? — ^Yes. 
 
 4959. And then it might be very difficult to say 
 whether we had got it because we were miners or be- 
 cause we were men?^-For ordinary people, but not 
 for >a doctor who is attending you. 
 
 4960. Do you think, as a doctor, that you could so 
 distinguish minens' bronchitis from bronchitis that a 
 miner gets, and which is not miners' bronchitis ? Two 
 miners get bronchitis ; one of them gets it on account 
 of being a miner, and the other would have got it even 
 though he had been something else. Do you think you 
 could distinguish between the two kinds? — Miners' 
 
 bronchitis is chronic, and the ordinary bronchitis is jf,.. ^. 2i. 
 
 always a temporary affair. bM, m!d.' 
 
 4960*. Not always, is it ? — ^Well, you can have simple P-^-^- 
 
 bronchitis in anyone. I am taking a man at his work jg ^.^^ 1907. 
 
 who gets bixjnohitis from exposui-e or sudden chill, and ' 
 
 he recovers in the course of a few days or a week or so, 
 and there is no trace of the bronchitis left. With 
 miners:' bronchitis it continues ; it goes on increasing. 
 
 4961. To what do you attribute it, to what cause ?— . 
 It is undoubtedly at any rate in the first instance due 
 to the inhalation of coal dust and the impregnation of 
 the lung tissue with coal dust. 
 
 4962. I suppose you would concede that, generally 
 speaking, the miner's occupation, apart from accidents, 
 is one of th3 healthiest in the country ? — It is. 
 
 4963. But if that is the case, if we put down, say, 
 miners' bronchitis', should we not be obliged to put 
 down blacksmiths' bronchitis, and everybodys' bron- 
 chitis. Can you make out a special case for miners 
 as against blacksmiths, ©ngineei-s, and the hundred 
 other trades that there are in Great Britain ? — I do not 
 think I can, except that it is distinguished in symptoms 
 by the expectoration of black spit, and that it goes on 
 to degeneration of the lung in severe cases ; but when 
 they suffer with nystagmus it is only an odd case now 
 and again that I had. 
 
 4964. Doesn't everybody who blows his nose in a mine 
 soil the handkerchief with which he blows it with 
 black? — ^Yes, that is in the nose only, but this man 
 coughs and spits it up in the morning when he goes to 
 his work ; when he comes out in the morning first ho 
 will cough and spit up from his wind tubes this ex- 
 pectoration, impregnated with coal dust, verv black, a 
 gritty material which you can feel with your fingers, 
 you can get the particles of coal that have come from 
 the bronchial tubes, and in post-mortem examinations 
 I have frequently seen a, miner's^ lung as black as ink, 
 and when you took the scalpel and divided the lung you 
 could scrape the little particles of coal in the lung 
 tissue, but I must also say that coal dust is not of 
 itsslf very injurious either to the lung or to an ordinary 
 wound, it is carbon. 
 
 4965. It is the silica you mean that is mixed with it ? 
 .— Yos, and even as it stands with the silica it is not 
 irritating to the lung particularly. There is nothing 
 very injurious about the ordinary coal dust except that 
 it irritates to a certain extent and ca^ises bronchitis, 
 but it does not cause, injury the same as steel dust, 
 for instance, or copper dust and so on ; there is none 
 of the wasting. 
 
 4966. It would be difficult tO' include in the Third 
 Schedule tO' the Act bronchitis for miners, seeing it is 
 a healthy occupation, without including bronchitis for 
 everybody all over the kingdom in other occupations ? 
 — ^No, that is sO'. Among the diseases I was particular 
 about ankylostomiasis, of the three I was particular- 
 about it, but I did not know it was in the new Act. 
 
 4968. But it is this miners' bronchitis that we are- 
 now discussing, and I was asking you whether it was. 
 not rather a weak case in some respects, because the 
 miners' bronchitis does not seem to be very much worse, 
 from what one can learn, than the bronchitis all over 
 the country P — ^Indeed that is so, and I do not make a 
 point of that, except that it is one of the diseases that 
 does belong to. miners: 
 
 4969. It is one of the diseases that ought to be con- 
 sidered at all events? — ^Yes. 
 
 4970. (Professor Allhutt.) If a miner spits he will 
 probably spit black ? — ^Yes. 
 
 4971. {Chairman.) Then with regard to ankylo- 
 stamiasis, I won't ask you many questions about that, 
 but only this one point. Some time ago I saw Mr. 
 Smillie and asked him if a single case could be dis- 
 covered anywhere in Scotland to let us know instantly,, 
 aaid we would have a searching investigation made, has. 
 any case awived so far as you know yet? — Yes, there 
 are two from Loanhead in the Edinburgh Infirmary. 
 
 4972. When' were they found? — Less than a month 
 ago. 
 
 4973. He has not let me know then ? — He ought to. 
 The two of them were treated in Edinburgh Infirmary, 
 under Dr. James, and he is very enthusiastic about it ; 
 it is a new disease to him', and he is giving lectures. 
 
 4974. What mine has that occurred in ? — From Loan- 
 head, I do not know which mine it is. They are in the 
 Royal Infirmary in Edinburgh, and they have been 
 
158 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. L. 
 
 Bell, M.D., 
 
 D.P.H. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907. 
 
 treated there, and one of them is still there. I have 
 also to say that these two men came back from Mysore 
 in India. The worms were on exhibition microscopi- 
 cally. 
 
 4975. Now we cam'3 to three other diseases. There is 
 miners' elbow, miners' knee, and there is beat hand ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 4976. Would you please tell us about these three 
 briefly ? — ^liners' elbow is a bursitis over the point of 
 the elbow, and it is got by the actiom of holing, 
 rubbing constantly on the elbow during the work. 
 
 4977. But could not that be obviated by wearing a 
 leather pad ? — Well, it could be done ; they are used 
 in point of fact, but on account of the awkward 
 position in which the men work, under the low work- 
 ings especially, they have to stretch their arms right 
 into the seam of coal, and so it is impossible to wear a 
 pad. They want all the room they can get, and even 
 if there is a pad underneath, though it does 
 ameliorate the friction to a certain extent, it does 
 not avoid it. The men often sit with their elbow on 
 their knee if they have room, but in the low workings 
 they have to put their elbow naked on the ground. 
 
 4978. And what are the effects that are produced by 
 this condition, I mean how far tempora-ry or how far 
 permanent ? — ^The bulk of the cases are merely an in- 
 flammation of the bursa, similar to housemaid's knee. 
 The inflammation goes down, and as a rule goes off, but 
 sometimes it goes on to suppuration, and in one un- 
 fortunate case that I had at the end of 1906 cellulitis 
 commenced, spread from the bursa to the tissues of the 
 arm and forearm, and the man died with septicsemia 
 within eight days, after he took it. He was absolutely 
 well on the Saturday, and died on the following Sun- 
 day week, so that in certain cases it is a serious ail- 
 ment, and the man got it undoubtedly at his work 
 from the friction. He had complained for some little 
 time beforehand of gatherings in his ^bow, and that 
 was the elbow he kept rubbing on. 
 
 4979. Can you call that a sufficiently common 
 disease — miners' elbow — to be proper to schedule, be- 
 caxise you cannot schedule a thing unless it can be 
 called a moTe or less characteristic miners' disease? 
 — It is very characteristic, and it is pretty common. 
 
 4980. Does it cause men to stay away from their 
 ■work for short periods?— Yes, I think about a fort- 
 night during the acute stage, on the average. It is in 
 the little bag at the elbow. The fluid absorbs there 
 and the inflammation becomes cool. 
 
 4981. It is made the subject, is it, of payments by 
 the benefit societies at present? — Oh, yes, undoubtedly 
 when the men are off with that, and a miner cannot 
 work with a bursitis of the elbow if it becomes in- 
 flamed. 
 
 4982. Is mineiss' knee the same thing occurring to 
 the knee? — Practically the same thing at the knee 
 instead of the elbow — the same as housemaid's knee. 
 
 4983. Does it not strike you that if the miners have 
 this disease included in the schedule, all the house- 
 maids in the kingdom would want 'housemaid's knee 
 included ? — In some pits the man is never off his knee 
 from the time he begins his work until he ends, on 
 account of the lowness of the workings ; a housemaid 
 gets down to scinib the floor in the morning, and gets 
 up and is done, and has other work besides that. 
 
 4984. She will say, " Never mind, I may get my 
 knee in a short time " ? — I think she would be quite 
 entitled to claim compensation. 
 
 4985. (Professor Allhutt.) A slater, who has to' do 
 pretty much the same thing, wears a pad, which he 
 fastens on to his knee? — ^Yes, kneecaps. 
 
 4986. Have you ever heard of a slater suffering from 
 beat knee ? — I have never treated a slater all the time 
 I have been in practice for anything wrong with his 
 knee other than an ordinary accident. 
 
 4986* Why do not miners wear pads? — ^Miners do 
 wear pads sometimes, but as a class they are not very 
 much given to forethought ; they take things ag they 
 come. 
 
 4987. (Chairman.) Yo<u could not fairly ask for com- 
 pensation in cases where a little reasonable forethought 
 and care in working would have obviated the injury ?— 
 That is true, but it would take more than a little fore- 
 thought in this case, because even if a man were to 
 wear a slater's pad on his knee, on account of being 
 all day Ion? on his knee the friction would be 
 ■suiucient. It :s essentially a pressure ailment. 
 
 3. (Professor Allhutt.) Are you speaking of cases 
 where you know they have worn slaters' pads ? — ^Yes. 
 They have to go down on their knees suddenly, and 
 sometimes they cannot take the same care as a slater, 
 who has to climb cautiously on a roof ; he has to get 
 down suddenly and work in an awkward position. 
 
 4989. You have known a number of cases of this beat 
 knee in miners who were actually wearing a pad? — 
 Yes, I have known that very often, and their clothe* 
 are so thick really that they amount to a pad ; they 
 wear very thick clothes. 
 
 4990. Would you go a little further and say that you 
 could tell us ot any nnprovement in the pad, such 
 as a hollow pad, or long pad, or anything of that kind! 
 —A pneumatic pad would be the best. 
 
 4991. A pneumatic pad might be expensive and 
 troublesome ? — Yes. 
 
 4992. Pa.ds are sold for housemaids, and consist of a 
 twist of straw simply ? — Yes. 
 
 4993. And the twist takes the weight off like a 
 cushion ? — Yes, it puts the bunea opposite the hollow of 
 the pad. It is rather awkward that t'liis work is work 
 that requires all the men's activity ; they are not able 
 to hamper themselves very readily ; they strip. 
 
 4994. (Chairman.) It will be a comparatively small 
 thing ; there are not so many men get it ? — ^A good 
 fcany get the ordinary form of miners' knee, house- 
 maid's knee or miners', but it is very seldom that it 
 runs on to a very extensive disability. 
 
 4995. But it disalbles them from work for a short 
 time ? — Yes, about a fortnight or three weeks, unless it 
 goes on to' suppuration, and a deep-seated inflamma- 
 tion of the bone, as it sometimes does. 
 
 4996. Might not the putting in of miners' knee lead 
 to a great many people finding that their knee was 
 very bad when they wanted to be doing something 
 else with it t — Well, you could not simulate that. Ton 
 could not pretend that you had a miners' knee or 
 miners' elbow without producing the evidence of it ; it 
 is a thing you can see and feel. 
 
 4907. A doctor would see that there was something, 
 but a man might think it was a good deal worse than 
 it was, might he not ? — No ; a doctor who knows his 
 business — a. surgeon would know in a second that a 
 bursitis was in an acute stage by the tenderness of it 
 and the redness of it, and the fluctuation of the buna 
 itself ; you can feel it without a man opening his 
 mouth about the pain. So far as diagnosis is con- 
 cerned, the pain is really subsidiary. 
 
 4998. It is water?— It is fluid. 
 
 4999. In the knee joint? — Not in the knee joint, 
 outside the knee joint, in a little bursa that is over 
 the point of the bone, or over the ligament. Beat hand 
 is practically an inflammation of the tendon sheath. 
 
 5000. (Professor Allhutt.) Is that what is known as 
 Dupuytren's contraction ?^— No. 
 
 5001. What is the difference ?— The difference is that 
 Dupuytren's contraction of the tendon is a permanent 
 contraction of the tendon ; the other is an acute in- 
 flammation due to the pressure of the soft tissues of the 
 palm of the hand, or the palmar aspect of the fingers. 
 
 5002. That does not go on to contraction? — ^Not un- 
 less as the result of a destruction of tendon. 
 
 5003. That is not characteristic! of it ?— No ; but it 
 recovers entirely, provided there is no destruction of 
 the palmar tissue, the tendon sheath, or the tendon 
 itself. The last case I had, for instance, was a very 
 severe case that went on to suppuration, and I had to 
 open it under chloroform. The recovery was com- 
 plete, but I have seen it again where the destruction 
 of the flexor tendon was sufiicient to make the finger 
 go quite straight, and the man could not bend it at all- 
 
 5004. That is an exceptional result?— Yes. 
 
 5005. The ordinary result is release of the pus ?— Yes. 
 
 5006. (Chairman.) To be frank, one does not see so 
 great difficulty in scheduling very serious cases of 
 miners' knee and beat hand, but if these ailments 
 were included generally in the schedule men would be 
 applying for compensation in respect of incapacitation 
 from these ailments for quite a small period of time, 
 even a few hours, and that would lead, it seems to me, 
 to considerable difficulty in administration ; whenever 
 a man had got a soreness of the knee or hand he would 
 apply for compensation. It is not the small ailments 
 you are really thinking of?— No. I am speaking of 
 the suppurative cases, where the inflammation runs on 
 to suppuration. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 159 
 
 5007. Could you assist us to distinguish the small 
 cases from the serious ones ? Is there some technical 
 term that would differentiate the one from the other ? — 
 It is really the same as whitlow, but affecting the palm 
 instead of the finger. I should say supperative in- 
 flammation of the tendon sheath would meet it. 
 
 5008. That would be a more serious condition than 
 schoolboys get from using a cricket bat ; you are talk- 
 ing of something that is a real suppuration, and that 
 would disable a man seriously for a short time? — I 
 should say that where the inflammation runs to sup- 
 puration the man would be entitled to be compensated 
 for it. 
 
 5009. But not unless ? — No, he would go back with a 
 little stiffness — a tender foot, as the Americans call it. 
 
 5010. It is suppuration you are asking for? — ^Yes, 
 suppurative inflammation. 
 
 5011. What would be the exact word you would sug- 
 gest to express what you mean by beat hand ? — I should 
 say miners' beat hand running on to suppuration, or 
 suppurative inflammation of the hand. 
 
 5012. And shall we take the same for miners' knee 1 
 — ^I should say inflammation of the knee or the elbow, 
 acute inflammation without suppuration. You can 
 have a very acute miners' knee or miners' elbow, in- 
 capacitating him from work, without it running on 
 to suppuration, ibut in the hand it is different, because 
 the skin, as a rule, is very hard, and the inflammation 
 is kept in between the bone and the skin, and so it 
 very lrec|;uently runs on to suppuration in the hand. 
 
 5013. (Professor AllhuU.) We heard from Mr. Snell, j/^. ^. z. 
 or some authority, that there was a rather bewildering Bell, u.D.', 
 want of parallelism between the apparent degree of d.p.h. 
 
 nystagmus and the subjective symptoms of the man. 
 
 I think you put it rather the other way— that they run 16 Jan. 1907. 
 parallel, and in a bad case there is atrophy? — Yes. 
 
 6014. I think Mr. Snell's suggestion to us was that 
 you might have a very great deal of subjective distress 
 and a slight degree of nystagmus, or you might have a 
 high degree of nystagmus and a man trouble himself 
 very little about it? — I should say in that case the 
 severity of the subjective symptoms would be due to 
 something else than the nystagmus, apart from, nys- 
 tagmus, that anyone might be subject to apart from 
 the nystagmus, but not directly attributable or in- 
 directly attributable to the nystagmus. 
 
 5015. (Dr. Legge.) You say " acute inflammation of 
 the bursa of the elbow or of the knee " ; is acute bur- 
 sitis in itself sufficient? — It is sufficient. 
 
 5016. Are there any other bursse that get affected 
 amongst those miners except those ; there is one over 
 the olecranon process ? — Yes. 
 
 5017. And over the patella ? — Over the patellar liga- 
 ment ; it was just to avoid a technical term that I 
 was using it. 
 
 5015. I mean acute bursitis in itself could not be 
 mistaken for anything else? — ^No. 
 
 5019. And you do not suggest that compensation 
 should be paid except in those cases in which the 
 cardinal symptoms of inflammation are present? — Yes, 
 swelling, pain, and redness. 
 
 Mr. Thomas Spence Meiqhan, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 5020. (Professor Allbutt.) You are surgeon to the 
 Glasgow Eye Infirmary? — I am. 
 
 5021. And lecturer on ophthalmic surgery at Ander- 
 eon's CoUege Medical School, Glasgow ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5022. You have come to tell us about miners' nys- 
 lus ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5023. You might be good enough just to give us your 
 evidence on the subject ; you have put in a statement ? 
 —Yes. That is a short synopsis of what my eperience 
 is. It is under the following headings : — " Experience 
 of the disease," " Length of incapacitation involved," 
 "Rapidity of deivelopment of the disease," '' The charac- 
 teristic symptoms, and whether they can h& easily 
 diagnosed by an ordinary medical practitioner,"' and, 
 finally, " Whether it is; associated with or the cause of 
 other diseases." 
 
 ■ 5024. We might ask you what degrees of incapacity 
 you attribute to nystagmus, incapacity for work? — ^I 
 have classified three degrees of incapacity — namely, 
 that there are a number of men who are slightly 
 affected, and they do not give up their work, they 
 still oooitinue working, and they give it the name now 
 of iiiie " Glenny blink," because they use a Dr. Clanny's 
 laimip. These men suffer to a slight exfent from the 
 dharaoteristic oscillations of the eyes, and especially 
 when they assume positions that strain the muscles 
 of the eye. 
 
 5025. What percentage of the men do you think 
 become affected, that is the early type, this stage that 
 you are speaking of t — ^I have not had time to examine 
 my books at tihe infirmaries. I only got the notice on 
 Thursday, and I had to send my statement by Satur- 
 day, so I had not time tO' look up all my statistics, but 
 I would say, speaking from memory, that altogether 
 we would have about, say, 5 per cent. Then there is 
 a second type of the disease — namely, men who- suffer 
 worse from the oscillations and so much so that they 
 feel giddy at tames, and -they have to leave off the work 
 that produoesi it. 
 
 5026. Then if in the first stage there is not neces- 
 sarily incapacitation, in the second stage it is surely 
 incapacitating? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 5027. How many of them oome from the first stage 
 to the second, a large number of- them? — No, a small 
 percentage of that number. Them there is a third num- 
 ber, who have the oscillations and giddiness and head- 
 aches so badly that they have to leave off pit work 
 entirely. 
 
 5028. TOien the second stage is not absolutely in- 
 capacitating? — I have known men leave off entirely 
 
 in the second stage for six months or so and get employ- 
 mfi-nt above ground ; they go back to their work perhaps 
 in six months or a twelvemonth, but not to do- what is 
 called holing — that is, lying upon their side and con- 
 stantly looking up. 
 
 5029. Do you mean that they could never do that 
 any more ? — Yes, they would not do that any more, and 
 those of the third degree would not go into the pit at 
 all. 
 
 5030. But the condition at the second stage is in- 
 curable? — If they continue at their work. 
 
 Mr. T. S. 
 Meighan, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 5031. 
 work ?— 
 pit. 
 
 5032. 
 
 5033. 
 
 Or at would relapse if they went back to their 
 ■Yes, it is curable if they stop working in the 
 
 The proclivity to it is incurable ? — ^Yes. 
 
 In the third stage there is, I suppose, a good 
 deal of deterioration of the eye itself ? — There is, asso- 
 ciated with it disease of the optic nerve. 
 
 5034. That would mean even incapacitation for bank 
 work Or anything? — Yes, about a pit. I believe, how- 
 ever, that these men could do some labouring work by 
 and by above ground. 
 
 5035. Oould you, without any questions, but from 
 examining a miner who comes before you, with fair 
 accuracy, form an opinion as to the degree in which, 
 he was likely to be incapacitated for work? — Sub- 
 mitted for examination just right off ? 
 
 5036. Suibmitted for examinajtion, and you had only 
 the objective symptoms to go upon?— I would form a 
 good estimate, but I could not say positively. I would 
 need to test his eyes and vision. 
 
 5037. But before you began to ask him any ques- 
 tions you oould form a fair estimatie? — ^Yes. 
 
 5038. So that you would not be likely to b© much- 
 misled? — No, not a great deal. 
 
 5039. Supposing a man came with a slight degree 
 of nystagmus who was a malingerer, you would find 
 him out? — I think we could form a fairly aocui-ate 
 opinion of such a case. 
 
 5040. Then, roughly speaking, the objective symptoms 
 and the degree of the disease are fairly parallel ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5041. In the first stage the cases would not come up 
 for compensation at all? — ^Well, probably not. 
 
 5042. Supposing that a man did come to you with 
 the first degree of nystagmus, should you feel bound to 
 incapaicitate him — ^to lay him by for a time, in his 
 own interests? — Yes, that might be. 
 
 5043. For how long ? — ^Probably three to six months. 
 
160 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. T. S. 
 
 Meighan, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1097 
 
 5044. Ho would be one of the small minority as going 
 on to the second stage? — ^You might ask him to leave 
 off pit work entirely, and then try him in the pit again 
 at another job. 
 
 5045. In that case every case of incipient nystagmus 
 would mean some kind of rearrangemeait, some kind 
 of compensatory change of work, or something of the 
 sort ? — Not necessarily. I know of a great many work- 
 ing now who have a slight degree, and thsy call it 
 "Glenny blink," and they keep on working. 
 
 5046. The majority who are affected never get any 
 worse ? — Yes. 
 
 5047. But supposing they came to you in an early 
 stage, as they probably would if any question of com- 
 pensation CcWTie up, and said, " Am I going to get any 
 worse ? " and yc u would say, " In case you should get 
 worse I have to take you off for six months " ? — That 
 might be so. Then the question of a man getting a 
 small fire in his eye might also crop up, and there 
 would be a question of giving him oom,peneation ; if he 
 were subject to nystagmus and got a slight accident it 
 would put him off, not altogether through the accident, 
 but through the combination of both the accidemt ajid 
 the nystagmus. 
 
 5048. The dif&culty seems to be the nystagmus. If 
 you are bound to take a preventive measure of that 
 duration, if the cases a.mount only to & per cent, of the 
 whole of the workers, there might be a heavy claim for 
 some periods of suspension, wouldn't there P — There 
 would be. 
 
 5049. It would really bring every case into ques- 
 tion? — Provided they suffered from the slight accident 
 do you mean? 
 
 5050. He would come to you if he had got nystag- 
 mus ? — Yes. 
 
 5051. He would come at once and say, " Now, I have 
 got this thing " ? — ^That might be. 
 
 5052. And then you would feel bound to say, " Then 
 you must give up the work " ? — ^Yes, or if he was honest 
 and wishing to do his best not to take advantage of his 
 ^laim to compensation, he could take some other occu- 
 pation in the first instance, and not declare himself as 
 a claimant for oompensatioiu, and see how he might 
 get on. 
 
 5053. Supposing that he comes to you with this 
 disease ajid says tO' you in gpod faith, " I know a great 
 many men have it, and they do not come to grief with 
 it, but I believe a certain number get much worse, and 
 beco-me wholly incapacitated, I want to take this 
 disease at the beginning," you say, " In your interest I 
 :am boxind to put you to some other employment for six 
 months, which may moan a loss of one^third of yo>ur 
 wages " ? — Yes, that would be the rendering of it. 
 
 5054. So that many more would come under treat- 
 ment than would in the ordinary course of things? — 
 Yes, than what are doing at present, many more would 
 oome complaining, seeing that there was compe'nsation. 
 
 5055. (Dr. Legge.) Do you know of cases of " Glenny 
 blink," which you have described, where the men 
 affected have given up the work for three month.=. and 
 
 . have got completely better so thajt the nystagmus was 
 not visible? — I know of some oases that have had it, 
 and tiiey have left off their work for a few months, and 
 gone back again, but avoided the particular branches 
 of the occupation that they thought gave rise to it. 
 
 5056. But that is hardly a reply to the question ; 
 'they have never been exposed to the old conditions, 
 those ones that you are referring to ? — Yes. 
 
 5057. Do you know of those who have gone back to 
 the same work after they have got better ; does the 
 nystagmus recur? — It does. 
 
 5038. To the same degree? — Well, perhaps not quite 
 BO bad, but it usually recurs. 
 
 5059. If that is so, and it does not progress, what 
 would be your reason for telling a man that he must 
 give up the work for three to six months when he comes 
 to you affected in a slight decree only ? — To try and get 
 rid of it; to take to some other occupation. Once he 
 lias come complaining of nystagmus it is usually ad- 
 vanced a bit further than what he thinks it desirable 
 to continue at his occupation, and they do not come 
 -usually to seek medical aid until such a condition has 
 attacked them. 
 
 5060. But we are rather anticipating a certain order 
 of things when they will come? — Yes, I believe those 
 that are not applying now will come, many of them. 
 
 5061. Could you not tell by allowing them to go on 
 with their work for the next three to six months 
 whether the condition was improving or getting worse? 
 — We could tell certainly, but, as a rule, we find no 
 improvement. We have tried that ; nothing seemed to 
 benefit them unless they gave up the particular kind of 
 occupation. 
 
 5062. (Professor Allbutt.) You could not say how long 
 would have to elapse between passing from the first 
 stage into the second, a matter of months or years?— 
 They might be months, and they might be years. I 
 have known them go on for years in that primary 
 condition. 
 
 5063. They are incipient ? — They are very incipient ; 
 it depends a great deal on their general health. 
 
 5064. (Br. Legqe.) And they do not go on to the 
 second degree ? — No, only a small percentage of them. 
 
 5064*. You mentioned 5 per cent, as those in the 
 first degree going on to the second? — I would say 5 
 per cent, would about cover the whole of the cases of 
 nystagmus. 
 
 5065. You would only let them go back to work if 
 they could find some different employment about the 
 mine where they were not exposed to the same con- 
 ditions? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 5066. You know Mr. Snell's opinion ? — Yes. 
 
 5067. Do you agree with it ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5066. That it is a fatigue of the ocular muscles i"— 
 Yes, of the elevators. 
 
 5069. Do you think that the kind of lamp used' has 
 anything to do with it ? — Secondarily it has something 
 to do with it, once it has ©stabliisihed itself the light 
 aggravates the condition. 
 
 5070. But the miners give to the kind of lamp used 
 undue importance ? — They do so ; that is the way they 
 call it the " Glenny blink," but we have it in those who 
 use open lamps. 
 
 5071. Have you known of cases where the disease has 
 led to permanent incapacity? — I know of two just now ; 
 I know of one in the poorhouse. 
 
 5072. AVihat form have they ultimately assumed? — 
 This man has atrophy of the optic nerve and very 
 defective eyesight, and the oscillations. 
 
 5073. It does caaise optic atrophy ? — ^It causes optic 
 atrophy to some extent. 
 
 5074. After excluding the other causes of optic 
 atrophy? — Yes ; in the cases that I have noticed I have 
 nearly always found some changes in the optic disc. 
 
 5075. (Professor Allbutt.) In the final stage? — In tie 
 secondary stage, and then going on to the final stage. 
 
 5076. (Dr. Legge.) Optic neuritis do you mean?— 
 Yes. A form of optic neuritis, showing pallor of the 
 disc but not the characteristic swelling of acute optic 
 neuritis. Miners' habits are irregular, and perhafla 
 drink and other causes have contributed to cause the 
 changes in the optic disc. 
 
 5077. (Professor Allbutt.) Supposing in view of those 
 people coming down upon, you for the first stage of 
 nystagmus that you say, " Very well, we are not going 
 to take you off the Work, you must take your chance, 
 and come again if you are worse " — a small percentage 
 of them do get worse — would any serious injustice be 
 done to that man, or could he on getting fair compen- 
 sation change his occupation or do something else 
 without grave disadvantage to his future life ? — I think 
 he could; if he were a thrifty man he could turn him- 
 self to some other occupation. 
 
 5078. You might then disregard the first stage, and 
 see how many of the affected came to the second, and 
 when they did come to the second you oould deal with 
 them : that would be an alternative plan, would it 
 not? — It would. 
 
 5079. It would not be running too grave a risk ?— No, 
 
 5080. (Dr. Legge.) Can you predict at all thei kind of 
 
 man who is going to get nystagmus? — No, and we 
 seldom see them in their previous stages or conditions, 
 but there is no doubt, I think, that there are predis- 
 positions. 
 
 5081. What are the predispositions, do you think? — 
 I think that tJiey are cases of a nervous tempenment, 
 and probably have a languid circulation, ani " pre- 
 disposition to antemic conditions or ['juiothing 
 analogous. 
 
 5082. And if nystagmus is going to develop, does it 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 161 
 
 idsvelop witTim a specified number of years after com- 
 mencing work ? — No. 
 
 5083. It is irregular? — It is very imegulax in 6ome 
 icases. I iave known them working for twenty years, 
 and then develop it in a few momths. 
 
 5084. Debilitating conditions resulting from influenza, 
 1 suppose, predispose to developm«nt of nystagmus ? — 
 Debilitating condition generally would predispose to it. 
 
 5085. {Professor Allhutt.) Putting it in the same 
 <;lass as writers' crtump, and some of those things? — 
 Tes, from fatigue of the muscles. 
 
 5086. {Chairman.) If miners? nystagmus were put 
 •down among the diseases to be subjects for compensa- 
 tion under the Workmen's Compensation Act, would 
 ■that cause a wholesale number of applioabionB so as to 
 he very embarrassing; how would it work out in 
 practice, do y6u think? — Well, there is one thing, it 
 ■would strengthen an applicant's claim if his cla.im were 
 otherwise doubtful ; for instance, a man who got a 
 relight blow on tJie eye with a chip of coal, which left a 
 
 small opaque spot, a nebula, if he also had nystagmus 
 of a sligjit degree, might say that between the defec- 
 tive condition now resulting from the slight opacity of 
 h,is cornea ajid the nystagmus he was quite unable to 
 work. 
 
 5087. That would be an accident, would it not?— 
 Partly accident and partly nystagmus. 
 
 5088. Then being an accident it is already provided 
 for in the Act? — ^Yes, but not unless he has defective 
 vision below a certain standard. 
 
 5089. Yes, it would be a subject for compensation 
 if it kept him out of work for a certain number of 
 days? — Yes, he would be compensated, but after the 
 injury has healed he might hold that there is a per- 
 manent defect of his vision from corneal opacity and 
 nystagmus, and claim compensation. That is one class 
 of man. Another class of man might hold on to 
 nystagmus along with some defective acuteness of 
 vision on account of optic nerve disease, and he would 
 claim compensation. On the whole, I do not think 
 there would be very many. 
 
 Mr. T. S. 
 
 Meighan, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 16 Jan. 1907 
 
 SEVENTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Thursday, 17 th January 1907, 
 
 Mr. Hen-ky Cuntnghame, c.b. (in the Chair). 
 Professor Clifford Allbutt, f.e.s. 
 
 PBE8ENT : 
 
 I Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettany (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. AETHI7E Meghan, m.»., cm., called, and examined. 
 
 5090. (Chairman.) You are a graduate of Glasgow 
 "University, and have been a general practitioner in 
 Glasgow for the past 24 years? — Yes. 
 
 5091. You appear here to give evidence on behalf of 
 the Engineering Employers' Federation and the Ship- 
 building Employers' Federation? — That is so. 
 
 5092. And you are going to deal principally with 
 three diseases — the- caisson disease, fibrosis of the 
 lungs, and neurosis due to vibration ! — ^Yes. 
 
 5093. We will take them in order, and perhaps you 
 
 will allow me to take caisson disease first ? — Yes. 
 
 5094. I think you may take it that we are acquainted 
 with the general character of caisson disease. I think 
 I am right in saying that th© pressure causes the blood 
 to absorb nitrogen, and when the pressure it taken off 
 the nitrogen gas is set free and bubbles up intO' the 
 blood, and tissue fluids of th© body, and then inter- 
 feres with the circulation ? — Yes. 
 
 5095. Perhaps you will therefore go at once into 
 details ? — I have gone into the matter from a practical 
 point of view in interviewing some of th© larger mem- 
 bers of th© trade here, such as Sir William Arrol and 
 on© or two of his men, and got their practical experi- 
 ence, which had extended over a period of from 25 to 
 30 years. 
 
 5096. I should like to point out that supposing 
 ■caisson disease could invariably be treated as an acci- 
 dent, it would be unnecessary to put it in the third 
 schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act, because 
 under the Act at present there aie two dif- 
 ferent things provided for — ^first, an accident, 
 and, secondly, an industrial disease; in so far 
 as a man. is suddenly overcome with a disease 
 the courts would hold it was aai accident, but 
 anything like a dhronic disease, which is pro- 
 duced gradually in the course of and by reason of a 
 man's employment, would be a subject for compensa- 
 tion, and would be liable to be placed in the third 
 scbedule. Now, I should like you to turn your atten- 
 tion particularly — I think we all should — to the chronic 
 after effects of a dose of, or of a number of repeated 
 doses of coHLpression, or of a long employment in caisson 
 work, even though decompression chambers had bean 
 
 419. ■ 
 
 used ? — My personal experience is exceedingly limited, j^ j 
 but I have made inquiry, especially of Mr. Andrew Mechan 
 Biggart, a partner of Sir VV^illiam Arrol, who has been jj g_ ^ ^^ 
 in connection with all these works, such as the Forth ' 
 
 Bridge, and these questions which you ask I put to 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 him. I asked his experience regarding the after effects, 
 
 and also whether he thought it was an accident or was 
 due to any disease following. His experience, as I 
 say, has been very large, and he is quite convinced 
 that the disease comes on suddenly, or comparatively 
 suddenly, after leaving the decompressing chamber. 
 
 5097. But there are after effects also which last for 
 some time? — Yes, his opinion is that the after effects, 
 as a rule, are not lasting. 
 
 5098. But they may be?— Yes. 
 
 5099. I understand that the Employers' Association 
 are not prepared to resist the putting of this disease 
 into the third schedule t — They are not, they are quite 
 agreeable. 
 
 5100. Well, then, we might leave this question, 
 imless there is any general remark you would like 
 to make upon the caisson disease? — Well, I think you 
 have sot so much evidence about it that I would prob- 
 ably be going over the ground again. 
 
 5101. I think you would, because we have had 
 before us gentlemen of wide knowledge of th© subject 
 who have experimented regarding it? — ^Yes, I have 
 read the evidence of Dr. Hill, and I may say that the 
 information I have received is very much in keeping 
 with what Dr. Hill says in his evidence. 
 
 5102. Well, I think we will leave this matter now 
 and take the second disease — viz., fibrosis of the lungs, 
 and perhaps you will allow us to call it gritty fibrosis 
 from inhalation of silicious particles ? — Well, so far 
 as the Federation is concerned, it is entirely metallic 
 particles I have to refer to. 
 
 5103. But potters' rot is the result of th© inhalation 
 not of metallic, but of silicious dust ? — ^I d^ not tihink 
 we have anything in the Federation in regard to 
 pottery work ; it is entirely metal, such as brassfinisb- 
 ing, etc. 
 
 5104. But, still, I suppose your Federation would 
 admit that in the case of steel dust ground off by 
 
 X 
 
162 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Mechan, 
 
 M.B., CM. 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 emery wheels and grindstones the emery or silica, the 
 silicious particles from the stone, play quite as im- 
 portant a part as the steel in the production of the 
 disease? — Yfes, silica will in any conditions. 
 
 5105. It is the silica and the metal?— Yes. WeU, 
 my experience, of course, has been that we have not a 
 great deal of fibrosis of the lungs at all in our Federa- 
 tion. I have taken the evidence, which I have got here 
 typewritten, of three or four of our men who have 
 been 30 or 40 years in the' trade, and all the evidence 
 goes to show, along with ray personal experience, that 
 fibrosis of the lungs in such trades as we are connected 
 with in the Federation is really absent. 
 
 5106. I suppose in the shipbuilding trades you have 
 got a certain number of men who are engaged all day 
 at grinding, who do grinding and nothing else ?— That 
 is so. 
 
 5107. But also you have got a much larger number 
 still who do a limited amount of grinding as an occa- 
 sional day's work? — Yea. 
 
 5108.- Who grind their tools for an hour or two? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5109. So that we have got in your trade particularly 
 to distinguish the rejjular grinder from the man who 
 might he called the occasional grinder ? — Yes, the only 
 regular grinding trade in the Federation is that of the 
 brassiinishers, who are pretty well or nearly con- 
 stantly at some brass grinding work. 
 
 5110. But do you not get odd steel surfaces, too, 
 polished all over in the same way that bicycles are 
 got up ? — Yes, to some extent, but not largely in Glas- 
 gow. 
 
 5111. So in your trade the occasional grinder would , 
 play a very much larger part ? — Yes. 
 
 5112. Supposing gritty fibrosis of the lungs were put 
 down in the third schedule to the Act, would it meet 
 the views of your Federation if there were . exempted 
 men who only do a very limited amount of grinding in 
 the course of their work ; I suppose that could be 
 arranged ? — If that could be arranged it would meet 
 our views very well ; we would naturally rather be 
 excluded altogether, of course. 
 
 5113. But assuming it was not possible to meet your 
 views as regards entire exclusion? — Well, we would 
 accept what, we could. 
 
 5114. Suppose a grinder to be employed the whole 
 of his time week by week in grinding steel or brass, 
 tiaving regard to the liability of grinders to contract' 
 this disease, he ought not to be so employed without 
 being iniciuded in the benefits of the Act?-^We would 
 accept your definition ; we should quite accept what 
 you say. 
 
 5115. Have you had praotioal experience of < gritty 
 fibrosis of the lungs — exiperience of your own ? — 1 have 
 seen it- aiLtogether in, twenty-four years about three 
 times in private practice. 
 
 5116. Would you be prepared to concede this position, 
 in regard to which a great deal of evidence has been 
 given, that there is really no great difficulty in 
 diagnosing a man's ailment, and, assuming that he has 
 got phthisis, deciding whether it is a gritty phthisis 
 or another phthisis ? — In the early stages it is prettj 
 easy when you get the solid. lung ; butJaAer, when tjxe 
 tuberculous phthisis enters into it,, it is jiot very easy. 
 
 5117. Are you prepared to give us evidence upon that 
 question of whether it would be easy or diflScultP— I 
 think it is difficult. 
 
 5118. But not impossible? — Not impossible with an 
 expert. 
 
 5119. But assuming you have got the best expert 
 assistance ? — In the earlier stages it is easy, but in my 
 experience and from my reading I should say in the 
 later stages it is not. 
 
 5120. But if in the later stage you are assisted by 
 the history of the case, and have full powers to inquire 
 into the man's whole life, how he has been working, 
 what stone he is working at, and every other factor, 
 in the case ? — I think that is only fair. 
 
 5121. If you had all that information you agree that 
 it would not be an impoesible taek;for a medical, man 
 to do justice on the whole between the employer and 
 the man in discriminating the true industrial disease 
 from the tubercular trouble ? — Well, if all these pre- 
 cautions.were taken, these, are only fair premises. 
 
 5122. Can you give oil mfi idea of what grinding a, man 
 who could not be considered a .grinder woidd do in a. 
 week; supposing you said a man was not to be con- 
 sidered a grinder who did six or eight- hours' work only 
 per week P — H© is not a grinder '■ under these conditions^ 
 
 5123. Would not tliat six hours be practically all 
 that was needed to exempt the oases tiiat ought to be 
 exempted? — ^It is. a very diort period. 
 
 6124. I think, after six hoUM a week a man rather- 
 becomes a grinder ; if he begins to work, two days a. 
 week at grinding, doesn't there begiii to be a possibility 
 of giving him phthisis ? — Well, I. knoW; in my investi- 
 gation that we have men at the brass work who are- 
 grihding more than six hours a week. 
 
 5126. Give me a. case of anjan who is grinding the- 
 wlhole week or a certain number of hours P-r-These moik 
 I referred to are all grinding a certain nunjbe]; of hours; 
 I have not the exact timei, but. I am.certainit is three- 
 hours per dayi 
 
 5126. Would not you say that a man wlio was more- 
 than three hours a day ait it was so far within the- 
 risk that he ought to be included within the benefits, 
 of the Act ? — But the proof with these men is that they 
 have not had any phthisis. 
 
 6127. You assert that no man who only grinds three- 
 hours a day would get gritty phthisis ?— From my ex- 
 perience and what I have seen I should think not. 
 
 5128. Would you say four hours a day — ^wouJd yom 
 go as far as that? — 1 think he could do four hours a. 
 day. I think a man working five (hours and stand- 
 ing over a wheel is exposed to the disease. 
 
 5129. Surely he is exposed to it if he stands four 
 hours ? — But these men, after doing that work, ara 
 going about doing other things. 
 
 5130. But if you are going to keep the men as long; 
 as four hours a day art it, you might easily arrange the- 
 work so that.it was done by a man who was working all 
 the day at it, and the other .vFork oofuld be done by- 
 somebody else ; it is not lite a case of an engineer who. 
 wants to siharpen his tools, it is quite a different thing P 
 — Yes, none of these mem are really called grinders ia 
 these trades. 
 
 5131. Oould you give us an instance of one of these- 
 partial grinders — describe to us what he would be calleil 
 in the trade ? — He is called a brassifinisher. 
 
 5132. How many hours a day doesi he grind ? — ^I could 
 not say definitely, but I know his work is varied ; ha 
 is not always -sitting over his grindstone-; he is going; 
 about doing other work — fitting, for instance. The- 
 brassfinisher does part of the brassfitting. 
 
 5133. I should -have thought the jbrassi polisher or 
 grinder stuck to the grinding? — ^In these works they 
 usually intermingle. with leaoh other .in doing work of 
 that kind — in brassfinishing and foundry works. 
 
 5134. You are not able to answer bow far the, work 
 cooild b3 thrown entirely on the grinder and the others- 
 set free? — I cannot' positively assert. 
 
 5135. But at all events you are prepared, so far as- 
 your information goes, to, say. that some exemptipn of 
 men who could not strictly be called grinders would 
 meet the difiiculties of the trade entirely, and then, it 
 would become a question of how you would define itf 
 —Yes. 
 
 5136. Oould not the Employers' Federation help us 
 by some information on, that if it Fas put before them?' 
 — Yes. 
 
 5137. And then they could say what they want ?— 
 
 as. 
 
 Yei 
 
 5138. Dr. Legg-s points oat that in speaking of grind- 
 ing yoti might take it to mean something of this kind, 
 " abrasion of metal by means of grinding stones or 
 wheels composed of emery or corundum or car- 
 borundum " ; they now largely use leather and 
 wooden wheels on -which these stuffs are fixed; we 
 shou'ld call all that grinding, althoiigh, strictly speak- 
 ing, some of these processes should be called polish- 
 ing ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5139. In my tu&e of the word grinding I am including 
 these processes, but when you come to mops, tha,t are 
 sometimes called dollies, consisting of pieces of circular 
 rags, there does not appear to, be the same danger of 
 phthisis existing there ? — That is so. 
 
 .5140. In the case of -SheflSeld lime and things of that 
 kind, OUT attention does not seem to have been called 
 tp,. these as a source -of idanger ? — Yes. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL. COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 163 
 
 514}.. Tl^e real danger .censists in, the- abrasion- of 
 ujietal and. sandstone ?— Yes. 
 
 iiS142.i And'dt Btaikes.me that it would be yery valu- 
 abler:w]iBn you ga back to pui' th&t before the Federa- 
 rfiion ?— Yes. 
 
 5143. And you mufefc be rary moderate because it is 
 jeally to exeimpt the engineer who is sharpening his 
 tools — that is the main object? — ^Yes, the danger we 
 ■were afraid of was that all these men might be included. 
 
 5144. We felt that. We were perfectly aware that 
 an ordinary fitter does not spend anything, like six 
 JiouTS a week grinding (tools ?Tv-Yes, I think. that will,: 
 oiss'ist us very. materially. • ' .. . , 
 
 5145. Probably soms- such exemption; as has been 
 suggested would meet the views of yoar Federation. 
 At-least it presents a iworking basis?— Yes; We were. 
 just afraid it was aU-embracing. 
 
 V 5146. And your Federation would not feel the in- 
 clusion of the r&gular grinders within the benefits of 
 th'6 'Act'tfr'be a hardship? — We would have felt it a 
 Hardship for all the m^n who wei'e doing any grinding 
 <ir polishing to be included, but I suggested to' them 
 that it would be very difficult to differentiate, and we 
 must have some definition. 
 
 5147. Particularly in view of the fact that the disease 
 itself is not one that can be diagnosed with certainty 
 in each case? — My opinion is that it will meet our 
 views very w^U if some clause of that kind is put in. 
 
 5148-50. (-Dr. Legge.) An exhaust system of ventila- 
 tion would be applied to every wheel, even where the 
 fitters are ; I moan the dust would be removed J-^Yes. 
 
 5151. (Chairman.) The only thing is that you must 
 not consider this is a definite offer, which we have no 
 power to give?— Yes. 
 
 • 5152. It is merely a suggestion thrown out for your 
 <:onsideration, and must not be consideired as a definite 
 offer ?— Yes. I ara pleased with the suggestion, because 
 it lemoves a good deal of difficulty. 
 
 . 5153. Is. there any evidence that you would like to 
 give on the nature of gritty phthisis?. — No, I have 
 nothing here but the statement of the men who have 
 leen at the work for 14, 16, and 20 years, and they 
 have not got it. 
 
 5154. But we are quite aware you can always pro- 
 duce such men ? — ^But these men have all been foremen 
 for many years, and they are not aware of any men 
 having it in all their experien<;e. 
 
 5155. I daresay the question of inoluding this disease 
 in the third sfthJedule might not perhaps be so- impor- 
 tant if the only tnado involved w^as shipbuilding ? — 
 That IS so, and the fear we had^— .although there have 
 been oases in t!be past — wias that when the suggestion is 
 made many cases may arise in future. I mean to say 
 that when the suggestion is made to the men that such 
 diseases will in future be treated by compensation, it 
 will -be wonderful how; many cases we will see within 
 the next .five or six years. 
 
 ii5156; But a man oaamot -malinger phthisis 7 — 'So ; 
 hut it may 'only be a pathological change, and have 
 nothing to do with his trade, and in many cases we 
 would have these claims made. 
 
 '. 5157. But you would have them made in all cases 
 wherever a man had got phthisis if he was a grinder, 
 and it would be for the medical man to see and decide ? 
 —Yes. but we want the definition of what real a^inding 
 is. As you suggested, we aire afraid that all men in 
 public works where there is any grinding would make 
 claims for phthisis. I think the suggestion that has 
 been made for us to investigate is quite sufficient for 
 our purposes., and I will put it before the Federation. 
 
 „5153. And perhaps they will send us their. opinion 
 in writing I — ^Yes. 
 
 5159. It is quite clear that it is not an offer, but 
 merely directing. your attention to a suggestion which 
 mieht meet the difficulty. The. suggestion is decidedly 
 worthy of very careful consideration, but beyo.nd , that 
 we cannot undertake to go ?— -Yes. 
 
 5160. Then with regard to neurosis due to vibra- 
 tio.n ; is it the fact that a man engaged in. handling a 
 pneumatic hammer and in drilling' holes with drills 
 suffers from loss of sleep, tremblin,?, and a good deal of 
 nervous upsetting; it is app.arently asserted that this 
 occupation has permanent ill-effects? — I have gone into 
 that carefully. I know a good deal about my own 
 peeple'sfirm of .Mechan and Sop?,, who employ about 
 1,200 people, and I got every facility for, investigating - 
 
 119 
 
 Mr. A. 
 
 Mechan, 
 Jl.B.,.e.M. 
 
 this matter-. If they were not the first- they were among 
 the first to adopt pneumatic tools on the Clyde, and 1, 
 have been in touch with them off and on all the time,. 
 I spent a day J,ast w^k. watching the m^n and ijB- 
 quiring, and I saw the foreman, who has been there 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 15 years. He' saj i the suggestion is absolute non- 
 
 sense, that all the years he has been at it he never 
 heard a man complain. I asked five or six of the 
 men about it, what their experience was, and they did 
 not seem to. understand what I was talking about. I 
 used the hammers myself, and tried them of various 
 weights and sizes. There is no doubt to a professional 
 mail that there was a 'good deal of vibration. I asked 
 severhl ■ of them whd in ^ the past had used' the hand 
 hammer and had now adopted the pnefumatic hammer, 
 and they all agreed -that they preferred-the pneumatic 
 hammer. I said, " Prohably that is because you get 
 through more work with it,"i and' they ,aaid that was, 
 one reason. I said, "Do you find that you can use 
 it quite as well and as long," and they all agreed. I 
 asked a question in regard to insomnia,, and .they said 
 it did not affect them. 
 
 5161. You ask^l about insomnia? — Well, I was 
 simply talking of it as neurosis ; I was putting the 
 general question, and I asked if there was any head 
 symptom, and found there was none. Generally I 
 asked in as. particular language as such a man would 
 understand about the neurotic symptoms, but I failed 
 ■to elicit that any one man had suffered. 
 
 5162. Now with regard to deafness? — ^Deafness is un- 
 doubted. 
 
 5163. Is it temporary T — ^No, it is permanent. One 
 man says that the deafness, if not worse, is equal to 
 that of men in an ordinary boile.rmaking shop. They 
 all suffer from deafness to a more or less degree. 
 
 5164. If they leave that trade for a year or two, do 
 thev recover their hearing ? — I cannot say, but I should 
 think not. Thei cause of the deafness is the same as 
 the cause in the case of a boilermaker. If you get a 
 boilermaker five or ten years after he has co.mmenced 
 his trade, hei is quite as deaf. Plugging the ears would 
 obviate it if they had started their trade with that. It 
 wmi.d p.revent vibration to a great extent, but the men 
 "ill not do it, although it has been suggested to them. 
 I suggested it to. those men in my father's and brother's 
 foundry, but they -will not do it. 
 
 5165. Thfen they do not mind the deafness ? — No ; it 
 does not inconvenience them beyond that they do not 
 hear. 
 
 ' 5166. Do- you think there 'vvill be something in this, 
 that if a man is going to be a boilermaker steadily 
 hor prefers the deafness as being absolu'tely in some 
 respects an advantage? — He just stoically accepts it, 
 and there is no more reason why a man who has got 
 deafness by the use of a pneumatic hammer should be 
 any different from the man who has got deafness 
 through, boilermaking. There is no neurosis in a 
 boilermaker from deafness. 
 
 5167. And it does not affect their wage'-eaming 
 capacity? — Not in the least. 
 
 5168. (Professor Allbutt.) Do they become stone deaf ? 
 — Not absolutely ; if you speak loudly to them they 
 can hear quite well, but thesy never complain. I never 
 heard a complaint from a boilermaker that his deaf- 
 ness in any way interferes with him either, socially or 
 in his work, and I know them well. As I say, I have 
 seen and examined -within the last eight yearsi between 
 three and four thousand of them. We naturally think 
 if that was p.ut down in the broad sense of neurosis due 
 to vibration there would be no end of trouble on the 
 Clyde. I do not blame the workmen, but I may say 
 that we have got a class of lawyers in Glasgo-w which 
 scarcely exists a<nywhe.re else, and we know quite well 
 that they would suggest to the men what the men 
 would never think of themselves. 
 
 5169. (Chairman.) You consider this, that if a man 
 feels he will get some money he will naturally try for 
 it? — Yes, if.it is suggested to him ; but the men them- 
 selves would not do so-^the real working men. 
 
 1 5V!0.- (Professor Allindt.) What'doyora mean exactly 
 by fibrosis of the lungs? — I mean a lung that lias by 
 absorption of some metallic or other material become 
 thickened a,nd hardened to begin -with, probably in its 
 entirety, and subsequently to that it breaksl down from 
 some cause ; but in the early stage, my experience has 
 been, in the. three or four cases I have seen, that it 
 was difficult to mate out when the lung was fairly solid. 
 
 5171. In which tubercle played almost no 'Dart 
 or a secondary part ? — In one of the cases. I cannot set 
 
 X2 
 
164 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE; 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Mtchan, 
 M.B., CM. 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 how it could be anything else, because the patient was 
 a, female teacher, and in her expisctoration I got cal- 
 careous matter, which in a man would be natural to 
 his trade if he had been a stonemason. 
 
 5172. Supposing it to be alleged that the grit acta 
 
 .also as a determinant of an outbreak of or<Qnsi]t 
 
 tuberculous phthisis, your evidence would be that 
 ordinary tuberculous phthisis is not more prevalent 
 among the men of whom you are speakinig than in 
 the ordinary population? — I do not think it is.- 
 
 Mr. James Gavin, called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. 5173. (Chairman.) What is your position in the 
 
 Gavin. Amalgamated Society of Steel and Iron Workers? — 
 -< — General Secretary. 
 
 5174. Shall we take your evidence and that of Dr. 
 Wyper the one after the other ? — So far as my evidence 
 is concerned it will be very brief, because I think this 
 inquiry is mostly a matter for medical evidence. 
 
 5175. At aU events, there are some questions which 
 I should like to ask you which you ought to be able, 
 I think, to help us in as well as the medical man ; 
 among the diseases you wish to call attention to are 
 poisoning from noxious vapours as an eixciting cause 
 of bronchitis, acute pneumonia, and consumption? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5176. There is also fibrosis of the lungs from inhala- 
 tion of silicious or metallic particles, and pneumonia 
 from inhalation of basic slag dust? — Yes. 
 
 5177. And dilatation of the heart, leading to heart 
 failure ? — Yes. 
 
 5178. Those are the diseases to which you wish to 
 call attention ? — Yes. 
 
 5179. We will first take the noxious vapours. What 
 are the noxious vapours to which you refer? — Prin- 
 cipally gas from gas plant. 
 
 5180. Would that be carbon monoxide ? — ^Yes, chiefly. 
 
 5181. Blast furnace gas ? — Both that and steel works 
 gas. 
 
 5182. Are there any other noxious vapours that you 
 desire to call attention to in connection with these 
 works besides carbon monoxide ? — No, I do not think 
 that there is any .other. 
 
 5183. That is the principal one, at all events ? — Yes. 
 
 5184. I suppose you will be aware that if a man was 
 ovei^jowered with carbon monoxide he would fall into 
 a faint and lose consciousness ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5185. I suppose you are aware that that would be 
 an accident already under the Act ? — Yes. 
 
 5186. So far, then, as the overpowering of a man's 
 concerned it would not be necessary tO' deal with that 
 as a disease^ because it is already a matter for com- 
 pensation as an accident? — We have not raised the 
 question so far as the overpowering is concerned ; we 
 are aware that it is covered by the Act, and we have 
 been paid under the Act for men who have suffered in 
 that respect. 
 
 5187. Then arises the point whether there is such a 
 thing as gradual poisoning from noxious vapours ? — I 
 think that is a question for the doctor entirely. 
 
 5188. Very well, we do not wish to put any ques- 
 tion that your experience would not be able to answer? 
 — That is so. 
 
 5189. I shall ask the doctor whether there are any 
 other permanent effects, chronic effects, due to carbon 
 monoxide, but I want you to be fully aware of the 
 points so that you can give your views on them from 
 time to time as they arise ? — Yes. 
 
 5190. We might now leave this question, viz., 
 poisoning from noxious vapours as an exciting cause 
 of bronchitis, acute pneumonia, and consumption, at 
 least, so far as you are concerned. The doctor will, 
 of course, be at liberty to say anything he likes on it ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 5191. I go next to fibrosis of the lungs from inhala- 
 tion of silicious or metallic particles? — ^Yes. 
 
 5192. That is what I suppose you would call 
 grinders' phthisis ; it is the grinders chiefly who get 
 that? — Well, that may be so. We find that we have 
 a lot of people in the blast furnace trade who are in- 
 haling slag particles and ore particles. 
 
 5193. That is so far new to us. You have a number 
 of grinders in your society ? — No, we have no grinders, 
 but the effects resulting from the emptying and the 
 loading of the material, the ores, etc., are almost the 
 same as if the men were grinding it, because the dust 
 
 is flying all through the air. In fact, these men when 
 they are finished with their work at night are quite red, 
 or white, or black, as the case may be, according to the- 
 different ores they are emptying. 
 
 5194. But, of course, that exposure to dust from the- 
 ores would be common with railway porters and every- 
 body who handled the ore from the time it is got out. 
 ct the earth till it is melted ; is not it rather a wide- 
 Issue that?— 'Well, railway porters and others would 
 not be affected ; it is only when the ore is beii^ 
 emptied out of the waggon on to the bogie, or from the- 
 bogie into the barrow for the furnace, and whenever 
 the ore is discharged that this dust arises. 
 
 5195. What ores are they that give rise to thi* 
 chiefly? — ^Mostly Spanish ores. 
 
 5196. Iron ores ? — Yes, Spanish iron ores. 
 
 5197. These, at all events, are the worst ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5198. Then you are not dealing with any other oret 
 except iron ores? — No, and limes. 
 
 5199. There is no other material but this iron ore. 
 you are dealing with?-^And limes. We have various 
 limes ; it takes the ore, the lime, and coal to con- 
 stitute the pig-iron. 
 
 5200. That lime is not silicious. It is said by some 
 people that it is only the silicious and the metallic 
 dust that does the harm? — ^Yes. 
 
 5201. Certainly some dusts, as you are aware, do not 
 seem to- do people very much harm. 1 daresay th& 
 doctor will agree with that, but we will see what he- 
 says to that presently ; have you any definite reasoiv 
 to think that thejre may be elements within the lime- 
 that cause the disease, apart from the iron ore? — No, 
 none. I think it is the lime and the whole dust com- 
 bined. 
 
 5202. The lime alone probably would not do it, be- 
 canise the limekiln men would be all getting it 't — Yes ; 
 but the proportion of lime we use is very small, com- 
 pared -with the other material that comes- in. The 
 quantity is something like 21 cwt. per charge ; that ir 
 composed of 15 cwt. to 17 cwt. of iron ore and th& 
 remainder of lime and ore brickettes to make up the- 
 21 cwt. 
 
 5203. But so far as you know, it is probably the 
 silicious iron ore and the metal particles that are 
 causing -the harm, and not tihe lime ; I do not wish to- 
 commit you to any statement that it is not the lime,. 
 but, so far as you know, is that fihe case ? — ^It may lie 
 a theory, so far as I aan concerned, but I think that 
 the liime is a contributory cause to the whole thing. 
 
 5204. How can you know that if they are breath- 
 ing an atmosphere of iron ore and lime ; you could not 
 say from mere appearances which was doing the evil? 
 — ^I say the whole thing is doing thte evil. 
 
 5205. I afrree that it is our duty to put do-vpn definite 
 diseases and definite causes, and if the lime causes the 
 disease, we must put down lime ? — Well, I cannot say 
 lime is the sole cause. 
 
 5206. Well, then, you say further that there is pneu- 
 monia from inhalation of basic slag dust ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5207. What have you to say upon that? — I now put 
 in a return of our tables for last year. (See AppendiXr 
 page .) 
 
 5208. How many members have you? — 5,600. 
 
 5209. How many deaths were there out of the 5,600 
 altogether ; there are 32 on which: you paid claims i 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 5210. Were there others on which you paid claims » 
 — ^We pay on 80 jjer cent, of the deaths. 
 
 5211. But what kind of death is it you would not 
 pay a claim for? — ^We pay claims on all deaths, but 
 after a member of our society gets a certain amount 
 in arrears then he is barred from the death claim, ana 
 because of that we do not pay the full lOO per cent. 
 of our members' death claims. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 165 
 
 5212. Out of 32 deaths, there aie fiv« caused by 
 cwdiao failure, nine by pneumonia, one heart disease, 
 and three phthisis? — Yes, 
 
 5213. What are the ages of those men at death 1 
 Tou could give us that ?i — ^Yes, I can give you that ; we 
 have the death certificates in the office. 
 
 5214. These are taken from the death certificates of 
 the doctors? — Yes. 
 
 5215. That gives you a little over half as much as 
 the total deaths on which you paid from other causes 1 
 —Yes. 
 
 5216. Are these men whoi aie engaged in. loading the 
 trucks engaged in that exclusively all day, or do they 
 do other work ? — iThey are mostly engaged in emptying 
 the tracks. 
 
 5217. But they will be engaged all day in doing it? 
 —Yes. 
 
 6218. I suppose there is only a certain limited num- 
 ber of men in a works who will do the emptying of the 
 trucks ?^— Yea. 
 
 5219. So you would not claim that others should be 
 included in addition to the truck -emptyiag men ? 
 —Yes, I would say the whole of the men engaged, 
 because while the truck-emptying men aire immediately 
 affected, this dust flies a certain way 'before it settles 
 down again, and the others working in the vicinity, 
 especially if there is wind blowing, and blowing in 
 their direction, receive their full share of it, and some- 
 times more, because if the wind is very strong it is 
 carried away from the men who axe emptying it to 
 those others. 
 
 5220. But you will admit that it may be expected 
 that among this number of men, viz., 32, some of 
 them would have died from pulmonary phthisis, if they 
 had never been employed where there was dust at all ; 
 in other words, there is such a thing as phthisis not 
 produced by dust — you see my point?— Yes. 
 
 5221. It is a disease which is known apart from 
 dust? — ^Yes. I cannot suggest a course which would 
 meet that . point. I think I will leave that to the 
 doctor. 
 
 (Dr. Wyper.) All we can say is that the deaths from 
 phthisis greatly exceed the average in other occupa- 
 tions. 
 
 ■5222. (Chairman bo Dr. Wyper.) I suppose you 
 
 would go on to say that it would be possible to tell 
 the difference between a man who had died from con- 
 sumption caused not by dust and a man who had been 
 killed by consumption caused by dust? 
 
 (Dr. Wyper.) Well, in a post-mortem examiiiation, 
 it it is a fibroid form of phthisis which is brought 
 about by dust particles, we can distinguish between 
 death due to long-continued inhalation of dust par- 
 ticles and death due to an ordinary phthisis. 
 
 5222a.. (Chairman to Witness.) I should like to know 
 
 j with regard to these three men who' died of phthisis, if 
 you can show that they were particularly engaged in 
 ^ loading. I soippose you can give us their occupation ? 
 ' — ^Yes. 
 
 5223. Were they specially engaged in unloading 1 
 —I cannot state that positively, but I can find that 
 out and forward the information. 
 
 5224. What I mean is this : that while I can see the 
 reasonableness of your demand in a tru© case of dust 
 
 ' phthisis, it seems rather a large order tO' include 
 
 ' everybody who ihappenis to be engaged at the iron 
 
 ' works, and that, too, in the case of a disease such as 
 this, in which it is so difficult to say with certainty 
 
 ; whether it is due to dust or not. Is it not rather a 
 large order to include all these men as subjects for 
 ccanpensation in respect of this disease? — ^I see your 
 
 ' point. 
 
 ' 5225. While one might concede that the men directly 
 exposed to the dust and who have got the disease should 
 be compensated, it seems a large order to include every 
 iron and steel worker in Great Britain. Do you not 
 think it would be possible to distinguish so that only 
 the men engaged in loading or unloading, or something 
 of that sort, who caught the disease, might be 
 
 ' included within the ibenefits of the Act; I would 
 like your view on that — ^you will see the neces- 
 sity of being reasonable, of course ?— Well, our trade 
 is a very young trade, as you are aware, and I have 
 none of the medical statistics that are acquired m 
 almost ©very trade except our own, so it is rather a 
 difficult matter to give one's opinion on. 
 
 5226. Of course, if it turns out in the future that j/^_ j_ 
 everybody engaged in the trade was exposed con- Gavin. 
 
 tinuously to the dust, that may make a difference, but ' 
 
 we can only deal with things that come before us now ? 17 Jan. 1907. 
 — Yes. 
 
 5227. It strikes me as rather a large order to ask that 
 everybody, whether engaged in loading or not, must 
 be put in, because some of the dust may be blown 
 across them ? — Well, there are two classes of men I 
 am strongly of opinion shooild be put in, and these 
 are the men who are handling these ores, both empty- 
 ing and loading intoi the bogies which are taken up 
 the hoist and put into the furnace, and also the men 
 in the gas department, both in iron and steel works. 
 
 5228. What do they do in the gas department 1 How 
 do they handle ores t — They do not handle ores ; they 
 handle the things to make gas with. 
 
 5229. Please confine your attention to the ores ; the 
 coal would be different? — ^Yes. 
 
 5230. Are these two occupations ? — -There is only one 
 occupation if you are going to confine the matter to 
 the ores. 
 
 5231. Loading and unloading ?i — Yes, that is really 
 only one occupation. It is the emptying and the load- 
 ing into the bogies for taking up into the furnace. 
 
 5232. Well, it strikes me that the most that can 
 reasonably be asked is that the men who' are loading 
 and unloading the ores should be included within the 
 benefits of the Act as being particularly liable to 
 contract this special disease, due to the nature of 
 their employment, and I am anxious to know whether 
 you would agree with that? — I quite agree. I think 
 that would be sufficient in the meantime till we get 
 better statistics, because we have not been going into 
 this. If we had known this was going on, we would 
 have been better prepared. 
 
 5233. You are not prevented from asking in the 
 future that other persons engaged in other occupations 
 in the trade may be included, if you find the evil 
 exists also in these occupations ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5234. May I say that the case you present, without 
 prejudice to what it may be in the future, is the 
 unloading of ores in connection with steel and blast- 
 furnace works? — ^Yes, and the filling. 
 
 5235. The filling of bogies? — In the first instance 
 tbase ores come in in waggons or trucks. There is one 
 class of men who do nothing else but empty the ore 
 on to the bing or heap. These men's duty terminates 
 there. Then there is another class of men com© forward 
 with huge iron bogies that hold 21 cwt., and they fill 
 15 cwt. or 17 cwt., as the case may be, into the bogie, 
 and then get the lime in along with it. It is then 
 all taken from the bing and put into the furnace. It 
 is flung with that dust into the barrow or bogie, and 
 there is much dust flying about when that is done. 
 
 5236. These are the two classes of men we have to- 
 consider ? — Yes, in this instance. 
 
 5237. Now we will go on to the gas-men. They 
 are producer gas furnaces ? — Yes. 
 
 5238. Mostly with coal? — It is mostly dross in. 
 modern gas-producing plant — ^what are called nuts. 
 
 5238. Does that slag contain silicious dust — the stuff 
 you say is emptied in? — No, it is coal. 
 
 5240. But it is more than the coal? — It is washed, 
 clean coal — nuts. 
 
 5241. There is no eviden-ee of clean, washed coal 
 producing a dust that gives men phthisis?— No, but 
 there are fumes that come out of the gas-producmg 
 plant when the men are operating the plant. 
 
 5242. That is carbonic oxide?— It is mostly tarry 
 vapour. 
 
 5243. Would that cause phthisis? 
 (Dr. Wyper.) Yes, it would. 
 
 (Chairman.) Coal dust alon-3 does not; appear to 
 produce phthisis. 
 
 (Dr. Wyper.) No, it is not a common cause of 
 phthisis. 
 
 5244. Then there is basic slag dust ; the basic 
 slag men are all under your society? — No, not the 
 basic slag men, but the men that are working in con- 
 nection vri.th the manufacture of basic slag. 
 
 5245. But you have put basic slag dust down? — 
 
166 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Gavin- 
 
 Will, if we have done that we have taiken, the term 
 from the circular. 
 
 17 Jan 1907 5246. Never mind what you put: down, but tell us 
 - ■ in your own words what is meant. Perhaps the doctor 
 will tell us? — Yes, he will. 
 
 5247. Very well. I am merely going through the 
 points. We want all the light you can. throw on them ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 5248. The dilatation of the heart, leading to heart 
 failure — ^what class of men get that? — ^We find that 
 general all over the members. 
 
 5249. I am rather afraid that is not a special trade 
 disease ; it se«ms to me to be tho general lot of 
 humanity? — ^What I mean is that we have returned 
 five from cardiac failure, and I presume that is the 
 point you are dealing with now. 
 
 5250. Of course it would be necessary to show that 
 the cardiac failure was a real trade disease, apart from 
 being a disease which is incident to all the occupations 
 of the human race. You see, we are not dealing with 
 every disease a man may die of ? — No. 
 
 5251. We are dealing with an industrial disease, 
 and therefore it is necessary to show, if you are going 
 to put cardiac failure down, that the particular work 
 of some men gives rise to some special form of cardiac 
 
 failure, or may b3 called a disease peculiar to that 
 trade ; you see what I mean ?. — Yes. 
 
 5252. And I am trying to get your view on that 
 point? — I am afraid -the doctor will have to speak to 
 that. I am not in a position to say ; But, so far 
 as the oases we have returned are concerned, 
 we show that they are general — they are not confined 
 to one particular class of men in the trade. 
 
 5253. But that it runs generally through the whole 
 of iron and steel works ? — Yes. 
 
 5253*. That I think exbauste your list ?— Yes. 
 
 5254. (Dr. Legge.) I am not quite clear. You speafe 
 first of the illness doie to the inhalation of the blast- 
 furnace slag dust ? — Well, if I said slag dust, it should 
 have been ore dust. 
 
 5255. You are not referring then to the dust that 
 collects in the flues of the blast-furnace plant ? — No. 
 
 5256. Do you know what I mean? — ^Yes, I quite 
 follow you. These men are employed once a week or 
 so cleaning that out, but there has been no question 
 raised on that particular point. 
 
 5257. No complaint is made about that as causing 
 fibrosis of the lungs ? — Well, the time employed in these 
 flues is so short that we have had no cases. 
 
 Mr. William Wtpee, m.b., ch.b., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. IF. 
 
 IVyper, 
 
 M.B., CH.B. 
 
 5258. (ChaiTman.) You are a practitioner — in what 
 locality? — In Motherwell and district. 
 
 5259. Do you occupy an official position of any sort ? 
 — I am just a general practitioner, and I am Medical 
 Officer to Dalzell Poorhouse ; that is the only official 
 position I hold. 
 
 5260. And you are medical officer, are you, to some 
 steel works? — ^No, not to any steel works. 
 
 5261. But to the men's union ; do you occupy any 
 position of that kind? — No, nothing of that kind. 
 
 5262. You have had a considerable practice, I sup- 
 pose, among the steel-workers? — ^About ten years in 
 Motherwell and Kilwinning, do'Wn about Eglinton 
 Steel Works and Dalmellington Iron Works. 
 
 5263. Are you medical officer of any benefit society ? 
 — One society, in which there is a good proportion of 
 steel-workers. 
 
 5264. You are not medical officer of the same society 
 of which Mr. Gavin was speaking, among whom the 
 32 dsaths occurred ? 
 
 'Mr. Gavin.} We have no special medical officer. 
 
 (Chairman.) (To Mr. Gavin.) You just have doctors 
 here and there ? 
 
 5265. (Mr. Gavin.) Yes. But you have been em- 
 ployed by the society ? — Yes. 
 
 5266. You know of these deaths? — Yes, I have been 
 informed. 
 
 5267. We will take the heads that Mr. G-avini has 
 Tjrought forward. There is poisoning from noxious 
 vapours, noxious vapours as an exciting caiuse of 
 bronchitis and acute pneumonia and consumption? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5268. That is carbon monoxide, is it? — Chiefly, and 
 the gases given oS. Generally thore are a lot of tarry 
 products. Of course, the poison is carbo'nic oxide, but 
 that occurs chiefly amongst the blast furnace men, and 
 I suppose you are not dealing with them just now. 
 
 5269. We are; we are dealing with every' industrial 
 disease ? — In blast furnaces you may 'get an escape of 
 carbonic oxide from waste gases for heating the air 
 ■of the furnace. 
 
 5270. But that would already come within the Acj; ? 
 — So I have learned. 
 
 5271. Have you ever known permanent results from., 
 poisoning of that kind? — No, no direct permanent 
 results. 
 
 5272. Indirect permanent results ?r— Undoubtedly. 
 What I wish to state about gas-men employed in those 
 steel works is that they very often suffer from the 
 effects of gas inhalation. 
 
 5273. Carbonic oxide gas ?— Yes, along with the tarry 
 p^roducts. That is when they are regulating the feed- 
 
 ing of the gas producers or stirring up their furnaces or 
 breaking clinkers, as they call them — that is, coal that 
 has all come into a piece. They have got to break that 
 up, and that causes a lot of smoke and! gas'3S to be 
 given off. 
 
 5274.' What are the effects ? — Very often we get them 
 suffering from acute bronchitis as the result of that. 
 
 5275. Of course, again, a man may get bronchitis 
 without having been exposed to that? — ^Yes. 
 
 5276. It is difficult to say because a man has been 
 shovelling some coal and gets bronchitis that the latter 
 is necessarily the result of the former? — ^Yes, bnt 
 what I mean to say is you get more bronchitis and 
 more pneumonia amongst these workers than you do 
 amongst ordinary individuals. 
 
 5277. What is the percentage that you get amongst 
 these workers ? — ^Well, I can only quote Dr. Oliver, 
 Professor Oliver,, of Newcastle. 
 
 5278. On the " Diseases of Occupations," I suppose! 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 5279. Would you kindly teU us what he says?— I 
 oould not tell you the page, I am sorry. 
 
 5280. What is the heading of the chapter ?—" Iron 
 and' Steel Workers." , He does not mention gasmen 
 particularly, but he mentions iron and steel workers. 
 He says : "At the census of 1891 more than 200,000 
 workers in iron and steel above the age of 15 years 
 were enumerated, but the number had decreased since 
 the preceding census by 2 per cent. The labour of iron 
 and steel working is heavy and exhausting. The 
 operatives, whether at the blast furnaces or at the 
 rolling-mills, whether puddlers or moulders, are ex- 
 posed to intense heat, as well as to great vicissitude^ 
 of weather, for most of their work is done in the 
 open air, or at any rate in outdoor sheds, unprotect^l^i 
 from colds and draughts. The men are for the most 
 part sturdy and of powerful build, the arduous nature 
 of their occupation making it impossible for any bnt 
 the most vigorous to follow it. In spite of these 
 natural advantages, however, statistics show tiiat iron 
 and steel workers are by no means so healthy and long 
 lived as they ought to be. The death rates of these 
 operatives are higher than the corresponding rates 
 among occupied males generally, and also higher than • 
 the rates of other metal workers, at all stages of life 
 up to 65 years. They have a comparative mortality 
 figure of 1,301, which is higher than that of occupied 
 males, as a standard, by 37 per cent. Ironworkeis 
 suffer more severely than do' other occupied males from 
 influenza and from diseases of the nervous, circula- 
 tory, respiratory, digestive, and urinary systems, their 
 mortality figure from diseases of the lungs" being more 
 than double the standard figure, and that from phthisis 
 also greatly exceeding th© average. Since 1881 there 
 has- been a considerable increase in the mortality of 
 iron and steel workers The increase has affected both 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 167 
 
 divisions of the working. pei^od of life, but has been 
 far the greatest among men over the age of 45 years." 
 
 5281. That is not the passage, is it ?-^Th'at is not the 
 point yet. 
 
 5282. What we are oji is permanemt effects osinsed by 
 breathing carbonic oxide apart froin the teniporarjy 
 ones, chronic illness? — What I was going to' leaid 'on 
 to was that there are repeated attacks, of Broncx^itis.' . . 
 
 5283. But bronchitis is not produced by carbonic 
 oxide poisoning; we must try to avoid !Confii«ion. 
 Carbonic oxide poisoning is what we are on now? — I 
 cannot lay: that there' are any permanent effects. 
 
 5284. That is one noxious vapour ; How we want to 
 get to' the other noxious vapours?— Well, I mean the 
 gases generally. 
 
 5285. But we 'cannot deal with gases generally ; there 
 must be some specific ' disease ? — The. gases are an; 
 exciting cause of death. 
 
 5286. Yes, there is gome, eviden<Se in other trades 
 that under certain conditions carbonic oxide will pro- 
 duce a permanent disease ; it is not very strong, but 
 there is some ; at all events, the gas would very likely 
 have to be associated with other vapours, because the 
 disease is not very common ? — No, it is not common. 
 
 5287. But there is some evidence to this effect, we 
 have igot it all fully noted; but we, must take them 
 vapour by. vapour? — Yes. Well, so far as that is con- 
 cerned, there are no permanent evils that I am aware 
 of caused by carbonic oxide gas alone. 
 
 5288. Can you point to any other noxious vapours 
 that have permanent ill effects ? — ^No, these other 
 vapours mentioned in the circular are not given off 
 in the manufacture of steel or iron. 
 
 5289. It would generally be carbonic oxide, I suppose, 
 that would be given off ; it is believed to be the great 
 thing? — It is the great thing, but unless as a predis- 
 posing cause of these other diseases, I cannot speak 
 for anything further than that ; as to the absolute 
 cause, I can give no evidence on that point. 
 
 5290. You see it is hardly enough simply to say 
 men have a higher death rate in a particular trade ; 
 for our purpose you have got to set the thing speci 
 fically down as poisoning from this arid poisoning from 
 that?— Yes. 
 
 5291. Now, we shall turn to the fibrosis of the lungs 
 from inhalation of silicious or metallic particles. You 
 need not labour the point that silicious particles will 
 affect the lungs, because it is plain, I think, that 
 this point is quite conceded? — That is agreed. 
 
 5292. I should like to know how far these men load- 
 ing and unloading are exposed to this dust, and how 
 far it 'afieots their lungs in thait particular case ; you 
 must remember that hackney coachmen are exposed to 
 dusty roads, to silicious particles? — Yes. I under- 
 stand ; there is a large percentage of what we call 
 
 I fibrosis of the lung or fibroid phthisis amongst steel 
 I and iron workers 
 
 i 5293. 'Ses, but among those men loading waggons;. It 
 t is chiefly the waggon loaders who are afiected, is it 
 ii not?^Chiefly that class of men. 
 ' 5294. That is the dangerous occupation ? — That is a 
 ! very dangerous occupation, in my opinion. 
 
 t 5295. What would be the proportion of men who 
 J suffer from this disease among loaders and fillers of 
 ( these buckets that are to go into the furnaces? — I do 
 1) not think it would exceed about 3 to 5 per thousand ; 
 i there is not a great percentage. 
 
 ■■> 5296. What is the percentage of the prdinary popula- 
 t tion who take phthisis ? — Well, for that form of 
 !' phthisis, viz., fibroid, 1 per thousand. 
 
 5297. We are speaking of phthisis in general, because 
 { three out of the 38 deaths mentioned by Mr. Gavin 
 '' were from phthisis in general ? — We are speaking of 
 '-■ fibrosis of the lung, or fibroid phthisis, and consump- 
 *, tion, or caseous phthisis, as we call it ; tihere is .a 
 '■ difference between them. 
 
 ^ 5298. What proportion of the population get phthisis 
 y of any kind at present ? You have told us the pro- 
 i portion of deaths from phthisis among iron and steel 
 f workers is larger than that of the general population ; 
 . wliat is.the fi.eure for the general population at phe- 
 j sent t — ^About 3 per thpusan.d. 
 
 i|i 5299. That die- from • phthisis?— That die from 
 I' phthisis. Of course, it depends on your population, 
 jiif yo«i hsve- a.young: population.- In Motherwell, for 
 
 instance, we have a big percentage of deaths, amongst 
 infants — children — from phthisis. 
 
 Mr. W. 
 Wypcr, 
 
 5300. But take it from the population between 20 and m.b., ch.b- 
 50? — Well, I think it would be the 'petcentagfe I 
 stated. 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 5301-2.. Three per ,1,000?— Yes, -I should say so;- 
 
 5303. What is. your percentage here apiongst those 
 workers ?— Well, I ;would say about 10 in 1,000. 
 
 5304. It would be larger?- Yes. 
 
 5305. That is chiefly among these loading men ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5306. Supposing we could see our way to. protect 
 these loading men, whose' occupation Mr. Gaviii has 
 described to us, I suppose that would put an end to 
 the greater part of the evil, as far as we can see, at 
 present? — Well, it would amongst that class; of 
 course, it ;is .- fairly common amongst the other steel 
 workers as well, from the inhalation of, I suppose, 
 dust particles. 
 
 5307. But we must not suppose too much, we have 
 got to go upon facts ; in your own mind, would you be 
 disposed at present to include within the benefits of 
 this Act in respect of this disease any workers beyond 
 those loaders and fillers at the heaps ? — I can only say 
 that amongst those loaders I am sure there will be 
 double the number affected as compared with the other 
 workmen in an iron or steel works. 
 
 5308. I frankly confess, as far as I can see, that the 
 case that is made out is really a case for those men 
 engaged in the loading and the unloading operations, 
 which Mr. Gavin has described,, but I do not see that 
 the evidence goes further than, that ? — No, not for 
 putting the disease down generally as an industrial 
 disease ; I do not suppose you can. 
 
 5309. I suppose, speaking as a doctor, you would 
 have no very great: diflioulty in distinguishing the 
 fibroid cases from cases that were clearly tuberculous ? 
 — No, we have not much difficulty. 
 
 5310. Now take pneumonia from inhalation of basic 
 slag dust? — Well, this is chronic pneumonia. 
 
 5311. Mr. Gavin explained to us the grinding of 
 basic slag for making manure ? — There are no grinders 
 out our way, and of course there is not much of that 
 basic elag dust, because it is chiefly the other process. 
 
 {Mr. Gavin.) It comes off in the rolling of the plates 
 — ^fine dust. 
 
 5312. (Chdirman.) Are you able to fix special cases of 
 that?— Yes. 
 
 5313. How far can we hammer that home, as it 
 were — attribute pneumonia to the inhalation of this 
 particular dust? — Well, of course you cannot as a 
 direct cause ; I do not know about the indirect, 
 
 5314. I think you must be able to say that it is this 
 ■occupation and this dust that causes the pneufnonia. 
 distinctly ; one may say anything contributes, a 
 thousand things contribute to a disease 1 — You. cannot 
 have acute pneumonia- without the pneumonia germ ;. 
 but what I meant to say is that the inhalation of those 
 particles deteriorates the mucous membrane and the 
 air passages to such an extent that a pneumonia is 
 often set up, is more frequently set up amongst these 
 workers than you would get amongst other workers. 
 
 5315. 'What is the particular process^ — rolling of steel 
 plates' ? — Yes. 
 
 5315*. That is all ?— Yes. 
 
 (Chairman.) (To Mr. Gavin.) Is that all? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes; of course the rolling of steel 
 plates covers a great deal ; it covers the heating and 
 also the shearing; when we speak about rolling, it 
 covens the whole of the work in connection with the 
 manufacture of steel plates. 
 
 (Chairman.) But would the heating of the steel 
 pla/tes cause these dusts to come ofi ? 
 
 (Mr. G<M>in..) Not tie ieating; but the heaters and 
 the rollers are all workinig together, and they all suffer 
 from the same effect. 
 
 (Chairman.) Ot the nine cases you have given us, you 
 will get the particular work these particular nine men 
 were doing? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes, I can send it on to you. 
 
 (Chairman.) It is necessary to prove the case very 
 clearly. 
 
168 
 
 MINUTES OF evidence; 
 
 Mr. W. {^i^- Gavin.) I find the doctors are not very par- 
 
 Wyper, ticular about giving us full information about the 
 
 M.B.,CH.B. cause of death; it says distinctly on the top of the 
 
 . : death certificate "State the dura.tion of the illneee," 
 
 17 J an. l iJU/. ajj^ ^^^^ invariably omit to state the duration of the 
 illness, although that is on the top of the death certi- 
 ficate. 
 
 (Chairman.) It puts us in a great difficulty; you see 
 yourself the difficulty that we are in ? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes, I ca-n let you have a copy of the 
 death certificates of these nine men, the trade that 
 they were employed at, and the duration of illness if 
 stated. 
 
 {Chairman.) And the character of the employmeot if 
 
 you can get it? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes. 
 
 5316. (Chairman.) I suppose we may take it you 
 would agree with Mr. Gavin's opinion that cardiac 
 failure is general ? — It is general amongst those that 
 have strenuous labour ; it is common in shipbuilding 
 yards, and amongst blacksmiths, and others. 
 
 5317. We can ha.rdly call that a disease specific to 
 
 an industry ? — No, it accompanies all heavy industries. 
 
 5318. You will understand that what the Committee 
 have to deal with are specific diseases due to the nature 
 of the employment. The fibroid consumption is a 
 specific disease ; we know what we are at there per- 
 fectly ? — Yes ; that is also brought about by the inhala- 
 tion of the slag dust. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) It is ore dust. 
 
 {WiintM.) It is the ore we mean. 
 
 '(Mr. Gavin.) Regarding the statement about ailag, 
 there is a certain amount of slag used at all blast 
 furnaces, and the particles get into the men just as 
 well from the slag dust as the ore. We do not use 
 so much slag as we use of the ores, a very small pro- 
 portion, and ithe slag comes principally from the 
 puddler furnaces. 
 
 (Dr. Zegge.) (To Mr. Gavin.) When you so use it is 
 it put into the furnaces to be melted up ? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes, they bum it up with the ores and 
 the lime, and the coal too. 
 
 (Dr. Legge.) That is covered by ,th6 occupation of the 
 men you have already dealt with ? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes. 
 
 (Chairman.) The claim in respect of the loading is 
 a very clear claim, and one can understand it clearly ; 
 the other claims seem to me to be a little " woolly," if 
 I may use the expression. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes. 
 
 5319. The loading and the unloading — that we 
 see clearly, at least, I do ; the others appear to me 
 rather more vague. Of course, there is poisoning from 
 carbonic oxide gas, that is another point that seems to 
 he clear, but the others appear rather vague. Can you 
 assist us? — Well, when we are tied down as we are, we 
 must agree, of course, that ail those other diseases we 
 are speaking of are not just confined to steel workers ; 
 all I can say on that point is that amongst steel 
 workers and iron workers there is a larger percentage 
 of these diseases. 
 
 5320. And that has to be considered ? — Yes. 
 
 5321. (Dr. Legge.) With regard to the poisoning by 
 carbon monoxide, have you had under treatment cases 
 of paralysis which you in any way associated with the 
 employment ? — No. 
 
 5322. Then with regard to the pneumonia, have you 
 read the article in Professor Oliver's book by Dr. 
 Stewart on pneumonia due to basic slag inhalation? — 
 Tes. 
 
 5323. Have you read the article in the book? — ^I 
 think I have, but I do not just remember the 
 particulars. 
 
 5324. With illustrations of the nature of the dust, 
 the minuteness of the particles; I understand from 
 Mr. Gavin that a little baeic slag is used in the works, 
 that it is burned up with the othea- material ? — Tes. 
 
 5325. But in that case it is put on in cakes ; it is not 
 put in the form of a powder on to the furnace, is it, so 
 that there cannot be any of the same fine dust that is 
 referred to there ? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) I would like to make a correction. It 
 
 is not basic slag that we use ; I said it was puddler's 
 slag that we jised, which is not basic slag. 
 
 (Dr. Legge.) (To Mr. Gavin.) But it is put in a cake 
 into the furnace P 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes, it is not ground. 
 
 5326. (Dr. Legge.) Is pneumonia recognised as a 
 common disease in blast furnace works — ^I mean steel 
 works ? — In steel works, very much so. 
 
 5327. And when you are called to treat a workman 
 who is suffering from, ordinary pneumonia, do you 
 associate it with his work ?— -Well, of course, we just 
 consider his work as a predisposing cause; speaking 
 scientifically, we cannot say their work is the cause 
 of that. 
 
 5328. In the village in which you practise what 
 population is there? — Well, in the district there will 
 be, roughly, 40,000. 
 
 5330. And of those how many will be working in the 
 iron and steel works ? — Oombined, I am sure there will 
 be 3,000, anyway. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) It is the principal industry for the 
 whole of the men, that and the mining included. 
 
 5331. (Dr. Legge.) How many of these nine cases 
 that are recorded as having died from pneumonia come 
 out of those 3,000 ; how many did yon see last year ?— 
 These are not from Motherwell district partdeularly. 
 
 5332. I wanted to find out how many came from this 
 particular district which you had yourself seen?— I 
 have no statistics on that point at all. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) I may point out that the doctor is not 
 a doctor for an iron and steel work who would come 
 into immediate contact with these men. 
 
 (Wiiness.) I do sse a lot of them. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) He is a general practitioner, I under- 
 stand. 
 
 5532. (Dr. Leqge.) In general practice have you had 
 any oases of pneumonia that you could directly attri- 
 hute to iron or steel works ? — Not directly. 
 
 5333. Can you give us an estimate during the ten 
 years you have been in practice how many cases you 
 may have seen ; does it occur in epidemics at all?— 
 No, I cannot say it occurs ; it is more common, of 
 course, as it is in the town generally — it is more 
 common among steel workers, and so' on, at this time 
 of the year — January to March — than at other times. 
 
 5334. In the spring? — ^Yes, but, of course, we get 
 odd cases all over the year. 
 
 5335. Have you heard of districts in England where 
 pneumonia is considered endemic, very prevalent?— 
 Yes, I have heard down in Middlesborongh, wheire it 
 was once apparently endemic. 
 
 5336. Is your district round Motherwell an analogous 
 district to Middlesborongh ? — ^Much similar, I think ; I 
 have never been to Middlesborongh, but I think there 
 is a similarity. 
 
 5337. Blast furnace centres ? — ^Yes, both steel centreii. 
 
 5338. (Mr. Gavin.) I understand that our town is 
 one of the healthiest towns in Scotland ? 
 
 (Witness.) Yes, it is a fairly healthy town. 
 
 5339. (Dr. Legge.) Have you ever been able to 
 examine the lungsi of a workman who has died from 
 this form of fibrosis ? — ^Yes, we have opportunity occa- 
 sionally ; of course, that is chiefly in the poorhouse, 
 of which I am medical officer, and it is thsre that I see 
 a number of these cases of fibrosis of the lung ; it is 
 really there more than outside that we see them. It is 
 in prematurely old men — men who have probably had 
 that disease for years, and it has ibeen treated as bron- 
 chitis, so of course there we have an opportunity occf 
 sionally of making post-mortem examinations, but 
 outside we have not. 
 
 5340. What are the conditions that you have found! 
 — You get the usual patches of eonsolidatinn of Inng, 
 with dilated bronchial tubes. 
 
 5341. When you say the usual forms of consolidation 
 do you mean like pneumonia or like cartilage, or what? 
 — No, as we get in phthisis I mean ; that is, you get 
 it in patches. Of course, in the ordinary consump- 
 tion, in the proper sense of the word, often you may 
 get the lung consolidated somewhat like a pneumonia, 
 in early oases ; in the later cases you giet cav^*i 
 but in that fibroid phthisis we get amongst ^ese 
 workers you get the lungs somewhat analogous to hver 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 169 
 
 at parts, oonsoUdaited, and, of course, pig^nented with, 
 either black pigmeint ox r©d ; if th©y are -wwliiag 
 amongst those ores you get it pigmented with ore, 
 leddish ore particles, and then in addition to the 
 -consolidation of the lung you get la oompensatory 
 dilation of the broniqju'al tubes in endeavouring to 
 make up for tihe loss of lung tissue. 
 
 5342. Wliat is it, do you think, that generally causes 
 the death of persons with fibrosis ? — ^Well, the constant 
 inhalation of these metallic particles sets up just a 
 •chionio inflammation of the oonmective tissue of the 
 lung, land the active tissue shrinks in, and really the 
 lung becomes practically useless; they have less 
 Ireathing capacity. 
 
 5343. You do not find cavities? — You do not find 
 cavities of luiig, but of course you get dilated bronchi, 
 ■which simulate oavitdes. 
 
 5344. You do not think that these men died from, con- 
 sumption engrafted on to their disease ? — ^No, it is not 
 brought about by the tubercular germ ; it is more what 
 jou call a filbrosis of the lung. 
 
 5345. You have not said mucih about the chronic 
 Hsronohitis that these men might get. I thought that 
 that was much more likely to result? — I should have 
 mentioned that that is common amongst these woiters 
 that we were considering primarily, due to these gases. 
 
 5346. It is not so cocmmon as this fibrosis from the 
 inhalation of the dust? — Oh, yes, it is very com^mon. 
 
 5347. Does that, do you think, shorten their lives? 
 — Yes, it does, but not to such an extent as fibrosis. 
 
 5348. They are not permanently incapacitated by 
 this chronic 'bronchitis? — Well, they are not able for 
 lieavy work, they are not able for their usual work, 
 
 and tbey are certainly old men before they .aire fifty ; 
 they are not able for much work after forlry-five ; iihat 
 
 is how they drift into poorhouses. 
 
 5349. {Professor Allbutt.) Have you seen many cases 
 of pure fibroid phthisis? — Yes, I see a great deal of 
 that. 
 
 5350. In life ?— During life. 
 
 5351. And occasional post mortems, I suppose 7 — ^Yes. 
 
 5352. You do not get many post mortems? — No, not 
 lialf a dozen in a year. 
 
 5353. The whole of your post-mortems amount alto- 
 gether to half a dozen in a year? — If we are anxious 
 to get them. 
 
 6354. You are not speaking of getting half a dozen 
 post mortems of fibrosis ? — No, I mean generally 
 speaking. 
 
 5355. You have said, I think, that there is no great 
 difiioulty in diagnosing fibrosis? — That is so. 
 
 5356. The disease may last for years, I suppose ? — 
 
 Yes. 
 
 5357. If suioh a man consults you over a period of six, 
 ■eight, or twelve years, what sort of symptoms does he 
 "oomplain of? — ^They generally tell you if you are see- 
 ing them for the first time that for years they have had 
 bronchitis, the usual cough and emaciation, and when 
 
 I they do cough, in the morning, probalbly, they spit up 
 great quantities — ounces — of vile - smelling stuff. I 
 lave examined that bacteriologically, and, as a rule, it 
 is mixed with all kinds of germs ; they inhale all kinds, 
 and it is very difficult — in fact, you never do get a pure 
 ■culture of tubercle bacilli in these cavities, and very 
 
 ! often it is absent, and yet we have no doubt it is 
 
 'phthisis. 
 
 ' 5358. There is also tuberculous phthisis ?^ Yes. 
 
 > 5359. You have no difficulty in distinguishing it at 
 tall? — No, we have not any difficulty in distinguisliing 
 i the two ; in that form you readily get the tubercular 
 ' germ — in the gaseous phthisis. 
 
 ^ 5360. Is the fibroid phthisis fairly distributed among 
 all the classes of men, or is it common among particular 
 ji'daeees? — ^Well, it is more so amongst those workers 
 ijloading and unloading material at those works. 
 
 536L And you would go so far as to say that among 
 .them it is fairly common? — ^Yes, it is fairly common 
 ,sam<MigBt them. 
 
 *; 6362. I suppose the process in an ordinary man 
 lasts 10 to 20 years? — It might go on for 10 years; I 
 :«ajmot say for 20. 
 
 I" 5363 It is about a 10 years' process? — Yes; they 
 'inay be able to work for years, then they probably lie 
 ''CS for a number of years. 
 
 ' 419 
 
 5364. It affects both lungs? — Yee, generally. 3fr_ fjr_ 
 
 5365. And those who fall into the ordinary tuber- Wyper, 
 culous phthisis you take out of the category of dust M-B.,ch.b. 
 phthisis ? — The Chairman made me admit— well, he did , ; ... 
 not make m© admit, but I admitted— that this disease ' '^' ^ ""^" 
 is more prevalent amongst them. 
 
 5366. You see a good deal of the tuberculous 
 phthisis .also ? — Yes, I .see plenty of that. 
 
 5367. Considering the particular pui^oee of this 
 Comm.it'tee, can you divide into two separate classes 
 the tuberculous and the fibroins? — Yes. 
 
 5368. Would you put it that they are very distinct ? 
 — ^Yes, quite distinct. 
 
 5369. And you say that the tuberculous phthisis is 
 likewise more common .among those men than among 
 the general population? — ^Yes, tuberculous phthisis 
 is more common amongst steel workers generally than 
 amongst the geaeral population. 
 
 5370. That is to say, leaving out the dust cases? — 
 Yes, I am leaving them out. 
 
 5371. Among the dust workers is tubercTilous 
 phthisis more common, than among the general popu- 
 larfiion ?i — Yes, it is more common ; they are above the 
 average amongst younger workmen. 
 
 5372. Is tuberculous phthisis of the ordinary kind 
 more common amonsf those who load this dusty stuff 
 than it is among those engaged in other parts of the 
 
 manufacture ? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) We are not dealing with the loaders, 
 Mr. Chairman, in connection with the steel works; we 
 have not raised the question of loaders. 
 
 5373. But you have a certain number of patients who 
 you say were engaged in the whole of thee© depart- 
 ments ? — Yes. 
 
 5374. And among them there is a particular set who 
 work in the dust ? — Yes. 
 
 5375. You say that over -the whole of those people, 
 in whatever dep.airtmient they are engaged, tuberculous 
 phthisis is more common than outside ? — Yes. 
 
 5376. Then is it much more common among those 
 who work among this dusty ore than among those 
 engaged in other departments? — Well, the fibroid form. 
 
 5377. I am asking about the tuberculous? — It is 
 more common amongst gasmen than the general body 
 of the men. 
 
 5378. The gasimen, who are exposed ■to carbonic 
 oxide ? — The gas producers ; there is carbonic oxide 
 there, too. 
 
 5379. Do' you mean those persons who breathe gases 
 which are simply irritant? — ^Yes, it is more common 
 amongst those than the others. 
 
 5380. Do you think it is miore due to the effects 
 of lany irritating gas than to a specific poison in the 
 gas ?-— Yes. 
 
 5381. It sets up bronchitis, I suppose 7— Yes, sets 
 up a local irritation, .and that makes a suitable nidu^ 
 for the disease. 
 
 5382. Can you go farther and say that the tuber- 
 culous disease is very much more oomsmon among those 
 ore workers ; is the difference very striking ? — ^Yes, 
 there is 50 per cent. 
 
 5383. Of the tuberculous kind 1 — ^Yes. 
 
 5384. If you were to put the tuberculous and the 
 fibrosis together, it would make a still larger difference ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 5385. Then you would say it is a very.heia-vy inci- 
 dence, the two together ? — ^Yes, it is a large percentage. 
 
 5336. What about their habits as to drink ? — There 
 is that to be considered, too. My own experience 
 amongst a good many of these gas workers is that they 
 drink fairly heavily. 
 
 5387. I suppose, owing to the irrita.tion by the gas, 
 or whatever it may be, they want a slake? — Yes, to 
 slake their thirst. 
 
 5383. Then you spoke of chronic pneumonia; 
 but chronic pneumonia is a thing almiost unknown V— 
 That is really what we have been speaking about. 
 Technically, we speak of it as chronic pneumonia. 
 
 5589. Is that the term you generally give it here? 
 — ^In the medical text books it is spoken of as that. 
 
 5390. What distinction do you draw between mere 
 chronic bronchitis and this chronic pneumonia ?— Well, 
 in chronic bronchitis, of course, the h'ning of the 
 
170 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 j[f,. ir_ bronchial tubes is affected with a compensiatory emp'hy- 
 Wyper, sema of lung tissue. 
 M.S., CH.B. 5391. Persons who are continually exposed to 
 17 Jan 1907 ^^^^^^r, wet and so forth, as these men are, I pi«- 
 
 '__ ' sume are very apt to get bronchitis, whatever the 
 
 trade be ? — ^Yes, that is true. 
 
 5392. Therefore we shall have to malce a consider- 
 able allowance for what we may call ordinary bron- 
 chitis ?' — Yes. 
 
 5393. Are you clear in your own mind as to the 
 difference, speaking fairly broadly, between bronchitis 
 which would be produced by exposure to weather, and 
 wet, and this chronic pneumonia or fibroid, phthisis ; 
 are you clear as to the difference? — Oh, yes, quite 
 clear. 
 
 5394. I think it might be well to give us a few points 
 of difflerence between the two ; for I mean you will 
 scarce'ly claim that chronic bromchitis is specific in 
 any way to a trade ? — No, I can only say that as a 
 matter of observation it is m,ore common amongst 
 steel workers. 
 
 5395. Perhaps you will just give us the points of 
 difference between ordinary chronic bronchitis and 
 fibroid phthisis — ordinary chronic cough and axi 
 emphysema with fibrosis? — Well, of course, we can 
 differesntiate between chronic bronicthitis and fibroid 
 phthisis, because in this fibroid phthisis there are 
 changes in the lungs. 
 
 5396. Recognisable by physical signs ? — Yes. Chronic 
 bronchitis leads to changes in the lungs also — viz., 
 emphysema, where you have a dilatation of the lung 
 vesicles, whereas in this fibroid pihthisis you have 
 consolidation of the lungs in patches. 
 
 5397. You were to give us the phiysical signs 1 — 
 In chronic bronohitis yton would g|et the up and down 
 movement of the chest in breathing — that is, the chest 
 does not expamd ; then in this other form, (fibroid 
 phthisis) you would Jiave flattening, probably lat the 
 apices ; you would not have so m,iioh of the up and 
 down movement, and the person would not be able 
 to fill up the chest as .a healthy m!an could ; his lungs 
 are all contracted laway from the walls, and he cannot 
 fill up his Chest ; then, of course, ini both cases you 
 would have breathlessness and other symptoms from, 
 want of lung tissue and respirato^ry smrfaoe; that is 
 on inspection, while on percussion you would get prob- 
 ably a hyper resonant note where you had the chronio 
 bromchitis, and in this fibroid phtihisis you would hiave 
 dulness at diffea^ent parts of the lung. 
 
 5398. Considerable areas of dulness?^ — ^Yes, you 
 would have areas of dulness of various dimensions. 
 
 5399. At the upper parts 7 — Probably all over. 
 
 5400. You mean in patches all over? — Yes. 
 
 5401. In the early stages of fibroid phthisis, I sup- 
 pose these physical signis would be somewhat elusive? 
 — In the early stages you could only judge by the 
 
 history of long illness, loss of flesh, breathlessness, 
 and the character of the sputum. 
 
 5402. The breathlessness is out of proportion to the 
 physical signs 2^ — Yes. 
 
 5403. Can you tell us something about temperatures ? 
 — The temperature is no guide. 
 
 5404. You see fever occasionally? — It is fio guide ia 
 diagnosis. 
 
 5405. You say that is no guide 1 — No ; it might be^ 
 normal just now, and may be up at night ; if a lot of 
 that sputum is lying fermenting, decomposing, that 
 often causes it to go up ; the tempeirature does not 
 assist the diagnosis one bit. 
 
 5406. From what you have told us, then, it appean 
 that you would be able to take out in several cate- 
 gories the cases which are "grit phthisis_," as the 
 phrase has been used, and tuberculous phthisis, whitib 
 miofiht have an independent origin, and bronchitis, 
 which might be. due to weather or to any other such 
 general causes ? — Yes. 
 
 5407. Alcohol may not have very much to do with 
 this fibroid phthisis ? — Well, it is certainly a contri- 
 butory cause. 
 
 5408. (Dr. Legge.) Have you got any cases of this 
 fibroid phthisis under treatment at the present time? 
 — At the present minute I think I have one down in the 
 Poorhouse. 
 
 5409. How many 2— One. 
 
 5410. An advanced case?- 
 confined to bed. 
 
 -Yes, fairly advanced— 
 
 5411. (Chairman.) What is that man's occupation? 
 ■ — He was a puddler in the iron works. 
 
 5408. (Br. Legge.) Have you got any cases of this 
 who have been at that woi'k, but I ha,ve one or two 
 patients in Ireland at the present time suffering from 
 ordinary consumption who worked at these gas pro- 
 ducers. 
 
 5413. (Dr. Legge.) Is this unloading of the ores very 
 extensive throughout the kingdom ? What will be the 
 number of men employed in that operation in the 
 United Kingdom ? 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) I would not like to guess, but one thing 
 I can tell you is, that wherever there is a blast furnace 
 or a pig iron manufacturing plant, these ores are used; 
 they are used all over England and Scotland ; the iron 
 is chiefly made from these ores. 
 
 (Chairman.) I gather that it is this unloading and 
 loading that is the real point of Mr. Gavin's case, at 
 all events at present. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes, and in the gas department, too. 
 
 (Chairman.) The carbonic oxide. 
 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes. 
 
 (Chairman.) These are the two real points we hjwe to 
 think of, Mr. Gavin, at all events at present. 
 (Mr. Gavin.) Yes. 
 
 Mr. RoBEET Beowk, called and examined. 
 
 Mr.R. Brown. 
 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 5414. (Chairman.) Whom do you come on behalf of ? 
 —The Scottish Miners' Federation. 
 
 5415. How many miners does that Federation em- 
 brace ?— 53,000. 
 
 5416. Out of how many altogether in Scotland ? — We 
 always reckon. that there are about 70,000 men em- 
 ployed underground. 
 
 5417. And you are all underground men, are you? 
 —Yes. 
 
 5418. You do not take in any surfaoei men in your 
 Federation? — There may be a few at some of the col- 
 lieries. 
 
 5419. But there will be very few? — Very few. 
 5420._ You are come before us to urge that beat hand 
 
 and beat knee should be put down in the third 
 schedule to the Compensation Act ?— Yes. 
 
 5421. I suppose that by beat hand you do not mean 
 every blister on a. man's hand — not a mere blister such 
 as a boy may get from handling a cricket bat? — I do 
 not consider that to be beat hand at all. 
 
 5422. What would you describe beat hand as ? Give 
 us a clear description of it from a practical point of 
 
 view ?-— What we have looked upon as being beat hand 
 is an inward bruise underneath the skin arising from 
 handling a tool or something, and after a few days' 
 time it develops and the pain starts. 
 
 5423. Does it suppurate ?— Yes, it has to get relief. 
 
 5424. T.here is a lot of matter?— The matter gathers. 
 
 5425. There is a lot of yellow matter forms there?— 
 Yes, and sometimes it wiU burst of its own accord if 
 it gets time ; other times it must be cut to get relief. 
 
 5426. You would not call it a beat hand unless some 
 of the yellow matter formed there?— Well, that is 
 usually what we call beat hand, when it forms a 
 gathering. 
 
 5427. And about beat knee, is there a gathering 
 there, or what is there in beat knee ? — It is sometlung 
 similar, but there is more than one form of beat knee. 
 I have suffered myself from ij;, where it was not in- 
 wardly. I had a slight pustular swelling on the sur- 
 face ; it was very little to begin with, but the paip,was 
 very severe, and ultimately matter formed at the place. 
 I have been off myself for some weeks with that, not on 
 my knee, but on the top of my foot. I attributed that 
 to something getting, perhaps, between the lace of the 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 171 
 
 toot and the skin, and the irritation was set up 
 through that case ; it was not like a boil, but more like 
 A litUe pustule with water in i^ and when it was 
 pricked you did not get relief, but it got deeper seated. 
 
 5428. Is that different from the sort of affection that 
 any man might get dn ordinary life walking about the 
 streets of Glasgow ? — I think it is more liable to result 
 from the occupation, owing to some of the material 
 getting between the shoe and the foot, or between the 
 ■trousers and the knee, and setting up the irritation. 
 
 5429. That is not permanent ; you can be cured of 
 -that by staying away and treating it properly? — ^Yes, 
 tut I have known it affect people for three or four 
 -weeks. 
 
 5430. At the end of that time it gets well again? — 
 "Yes, but in the beat knee it is deeper seated, and some- 
 times has more serious consequences. 
 
 5431. Have you ever seen cases of, or yourself had, 
 -what is known as nystagmus ?^No, we are used to a 
 naked light in our district, and any case I have seen of 
 -any person being troubled with nystagmus has been 
 among men who have come from where they used the 
 safety lamps, and they atributed any defect in their 
 sight to having to use the safety lamps ; but in the 
 district I represent all our men work with the naked 
 light. 
 
 5432. So you do not have much to say to that ? — ^No, 
 I cannot say that our men are affected with nystagmus 
 at all in our district. 
 
 5433. (Professor Allbuit.) Tour mines are quite safe? 
 — Well, it is all the naked lights. 
 
 5434. You have no gas? — No gas to require safety 
 lamps, and any man that I have met with in our dis- 
 trict who complained of his sight had come from the 
 districts where they had used «he safety lamps, and 
 attributed it to that cause. 
 
 5435. {Chairman.) I think that covers all you have 
 to say? — Yes. 
 
 5436. (Dr. Zegge.) You say there are two forms of 
 beat knee, there is one a pustule and the other a 
 
 swelling ?--Yes ; well, of course, I never have attributed jjf^ jt. 
 the pustule to being beat knee, but I know that is a Brown. 
 form of accident that our men are liable to. 
 
 5437. (Chairman.) We must not treat every little ^' ^^°- ^^'^' 
 thing as a regular miners' disease; the regular beat 
 
 knee is a different thing from the pustule, isn't it? — 
 Well, but the gathering takes place ultimately ; it is 
 a thing on the surface to begin with, it is another 
 kind of beat kn^, so to speak, and it arises from the 
 *ork. 
 
 5438. If it never got any further than a pustule you 
 would not call it beat knee? — No. 
 
 5439. (Professor AllbuU.) Do you understand that by 
 beat knee we are referring not to injuries commencing 
 with abrasions of the skin, but to bursitis, little 
 cushions forming near the joint. Would you be satis- 
 fied with this definition of beat knee, or do you think it 
 is not wide enough for you ? — Of course, we have always 
 considered that wherever the little pustules were seen 
 the same results nearly always arose to the workmen 
 from it. 
 
 5440. I do not think we have learned what the pus- 
 tules are exactly, except that any abrasion may be 
 fouled and form a pustule ; but do you think there is 
 anything characteristic about the abrasion? — I know 
 myself that I suffered from it very severely on the top 
 of my foot, and the pain was worse than even the ordi- 
 nary gathering in the hand or foot, and so little was to 
 be seen except a small pustule of a bluish colour. 
 
 5441. You would have to accept some medical defini- 
 tion about the beat knee, and if you wish to bring in 
 any other disease that begins with the skin you will 
 have to bring us further medical evidence ? — I do not 
 wish to press this ; it is principally beat hand and beat 
 knee that I wish. 
 
 5442. (Chairman.) You would not claim that every 
 bad knee was necessarily a beat knee ? — No, it may 
 arise from various other causes. 
 
 5443. It is the beat knee as a specific industrial 
 disease that we are dealing with ? — Just so. 
 
 Mr. JoHjT RoBEBTSON, Called and ecsamined. 
 
 5444. (Chairman.) You are 
 Hamilton ? — Yea. 
 
 a miners' agent in 
 
 5445. Whom do you represent here? — The Scottish 
 Miners' Federation. 
 
 5446. You come with Mr. Brown? — ^Yes. 
 
 5447. You wish to put before us beat hand and beat 
 knee, I think ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5448. We have already had a description of the beat 
 ■ hand and beat knee, but I suppose you would not say 
 
 that every time a person's hand or knee got wrong 
 that that was beat hand or beat knee ? It is a specific 
 industrial disease you are dealing with ? — Yes. 
 
 5449. And something peculiar to miners ? — Yes. 
 
 5450. You would not call it a beat hand unless there 
 was a gathering of matter, would you ? — Well, it might 
 not go that length, the hand might be swelled a,nd 
 sore, and it might not go the length of a gathering 
 of matter. 
 
 5451. But there would be a gathering of matter, 
 wouldn't there? — Well, I should think so. 
 
 5452. Because at present, as I understand it, yon 
 would not call it a beat hand unless there was a dis- 
 tinct gathering of matter?' — ^No. 
 
 5453. And beat knee is equally clear, isn't it? — Yes. 
 
 5454. Then sprained wrist, that would be covered, 
 wouldn't it, by the ordinary clauses of the Workmen's 
 Compensation Act at present ; that is an accident? — 
 I do not think so. 
 
 5455. But if you sprain your wrist, that is an acci- 
 dent, isn't it? — ^Well, I do not think they get com- 
 pensation for sprained wrists at the present moment. 
 
 5456. If it does not last the proper amount of time, 
 but if you have a sprained- wrist that lasts a month 
 won't you get compensation? — I do not think so. 
 
 5457. Well, at all events, you could hardly call a 
 sprained wrist a specific industrial disease of miners, 
 I mean that might happen with a hackney coachman? 
 — It might happen with any industry; but it is very 
 common amongst miners. 
 
 419 
 
 5458. But it can hardly be called a miners' indus- 
 trial disease? — No, if other occupations have it, it 
 cannot be peculiar to miners. 
 
 5459. It is not peculiar to miners in the same way 
 that beat hand is and beat knee ? — No, that is so. 
 
 5460. (Professor Allbutt.) Are sprained wrists more 
 common than sprains of any other part of the body? — 
 Yes, in hewing the coal, or whatever material they are 
 hewing, the nature of the substance may change, it may 
 get harder or softer — I am speaking from experience — 
 and when you go from a soft to a harder substance 
 then it has the tendency to sprain your wrist. 
 
 5461. (Chairman.) Have you had any experience 
 of men's eyes being affected ? — My experience is mostly 
 in the districts where the miners work with naked 
 lights. 
 
 5461*. So you do not know much about that? — But 
 in the district where I live they work with the safety 
 lamps, and it is observable among the miners who have 
 worked a long time with the safety lamps that there 
 is a look in their eyes different from tha.t in the eyes 
 of the miners who are always working with the naked 
 lights. 
 
 5462. Have you seen any case of nystagmus?' — ^Tes, 
 especially if the person had met with an accident to 
 his eye. If a man had met with an accident to his 
 eye, after he had recovered from the accident, if he 
 had been working with the safety lamp his eyes are 
 more liable to twitch. I have seen that. 
 
 5463. (Professor Allbutt^) Can you explain how it is 
 that this twitching of the eye does not come on with the 
 naked light?— Well, I could not. I have worked! with 
 a safety lamp, and you have to strain your eye. 
 
 5464. The position of the eye as regards the work 
 must be the same. Do your miners work lyiug down? 
 —Yes. 
 
 5465. Lying down on their haunches ? — They change 
 the position. If it is a part of their work they can do 
 lying down they lie down, and if they can stand they 
 stand, but in the thin seams they do all the work 
 lying down. ^ ^ 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 EoherUon. 
 
172 
 
 MINUTES OF evidence; 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Robertson, 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 5466. I should have thought it was rather more the 
 position of the miner in respect to his work thajii the 
 kind of light that he worked with. It is none the less 
 true what you say, and Mr. Brown said also, that it 
 does not occur among your miners ? — Not where they 
 work with the naked light. 
 
 5467. As they all do here? — Yes— well, not all ; in 
 some of the districts they work with the safety lamp. 
 
 5468. And it is within your knowledge ihat there 
 they do suffer from nystagmus ? — Yes, as I have already 
 said, when a miner hcis been suffering from an accident 
 to the eye, and is getting better, recovery is more diffi- 
 cult ; he is longer in recovering than the miner who 
 has iD&en working with the naked light, and there is, 
 too, the quivering that you refer to. 
 
 5469. In those districts not very far from here, where 
 
 they work with the safety lamp, would the thicknes* 
 of the seam and the character of the work be otherwise- 
 pretty much the same, and would the position of the- 
 miner be pretty much the same ? — Well, no ; I think 
 in most instances where the safety lamp is used tha 
 seams are thicker, but there are thin seams where they 
 aire working with the safety lamp. 
 
 5470. You think, then, it is more the light than the 
 attitude of the miner ? — Well, I have worked with both 
 lights, and, speaking as a miner, I thought I had 
 always to strain mv eyes more to see. 
 
 5471. The light is not good enough ? — No, it is not 
 BO good. 
 
 5472. The light being dim, you have to strain th» 
 vision more ? — Yes. 
 
 Mr. John Fotherinoham, m.b., cm., l.f.p.s., called and examinad. 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 Fathering- 
 
 hotrif 
 
 M.B.,C.M., 
 L.F.P.S. 
 
 5474. (Cliairman.) Are you a general medical prac- 
 titioner? — ^Yes.- 
 
 5475. In Glasgow? — In Motherwell, which is an in- 
 dustrial centre. 
 
 5476. Have you any connexion with any workmen's 
 clubs or benefit societies or employers' associations ? — 
 The greater part of our practice out there is club 
 work — that it, the workmen in the different works 
 subscribe for a doctor ; and I happen to be the medical 
 officer to several of them out there, certainly the 
 largest works. 
 
 5477. Several of the workmen's clubs? — Yes, the 
 clubs in connection with the public works ; all the 
 workmen are members of these clubs. 
 
 5478. Do the employers subscribe to these clubs, too ? 
 — They do not. 
 
 5479. Th3y are workmen's clubs? — Yes. 
 
 5480. And what trades do those clubs belong to — 
 entirely miners? — Iron and steel workers. 
 
 5481. Not miners? — ^And miners also. 
 
 5482. Are the iron and steel workers and the miners 
 in the same club, or do the iron and steel workers 
 and the miners have separate clubs ? — They have 
 separate clubs ; they are, of course, employed at 
 different works. 
 
 5483. There are no joint clubs comprising both 
 classes of men. No, I do not know whether you 
 can call this a club altogether, because it is one of the 
 regulations of the works that each man subscribes for 
 the doctor ; in Motherwell we might call ourselves 
 works doctors. 
 
 5484. The men are compelled to subscribe, do you 
 mean? — Well, that is one of the regulations of the 
 works, and the men all do subscribe. 
 
 5485. One of the employers' rsgulations, is it? — It 
 has gone on all over the country, both England and' 
 Scotland, for generations, that system of weekly de- 
 ductions, which go to a medical man. The workmen 
 have the choice, however, of the medical man, but the 
 deductions are made by the employers. 
 
 5486. It is not a regular. club ; it is only a subscrip- 
 tion for a medical man ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5487. I thought you meant a benefit club ? — It is not 
 a benefit society. 
 
 5488. It is not for paying wages during disablement? 
 — Oh, no ; ■ it is merely for medical attendance and 
 medicine, that is all. 
 
 5489. You can give us, I suppose, information upon, 
 various forms of industrial disease? — ^Well, I do not 
 know that I have a great deal to say, although I have 
 a large experience amongst the workers — that is, iron 
 and steel workers, and a good many miners. 
 
 5490. I would like to ask you about one or two 
 diseases, one after the other. For instance, supposing 
 we first take what I may call grit phthisis ? — Yes ; I 
 have rarely ever come across it. 
 
 5491. But surely, if phthisis due to slag or other 
 dust is common in your neighbourhood you will have 
 seen it ? — I cannot say that it is common in our neigh- 
 bourhood. 
 
 5492. Not among iron and steel workers ? — ^No ; 
 phthisis is not a very common trouble amongst iron 
 and steel workers. 
 
 5493. We have just had evidence that there is an 
 abnormal proportion of men who are said to die from 
 it? — From phthisis — that is not my experience. 
 
 5494. Do you happen to know Dr. Oliver's book?— 
 No, I do not. 
 
 5495. You do not know where he states that?— No. 
 I am talking from my own experience. 
 
 5496. Your experience, then, is that iron and steel 
 workers do not suffer in any abnormal way from 
 phthisis ? — That it so. I should rather say that the 
 proportion is somewhat less. I think they are, on the 
 whole, a very healthy class of men, provided they live- 
 well, live properly, and do not drink, as far as phthisis 
 is concerned. 
 
 5497. We were told that the men who unload tha 
 ore from waggons for the making of steel sufier from 
 phthisis owing to the dust that rises? — I have not 
 oome across much phthisis amongst them ; it is com- 
 paratively rare — certainly not more than amongst the 
 general community. I have not got statistics, but mj 
 impression is that there is even less, except amongst 
 those iron and steel workers who drink, and, unfor- 
 tunately, there are a considerable, number of them wh» 
 do that. The illness amongst them is not very marked, 
 it is not very great. There are a few wrecks, but they 
 are alcoholic wrecks, and I could not put alcoholism 
 down as being an industrial disease. 
 
 5498. How about miners? — [Miners are, in my expe- 
 rience, which extends to about 25 years, a healthier 
 class of men considerably thanr they were at that time. 
 
 5499. I think that is generally admitted, but hayr 
 do they stand as regards phthisis? — I think perhaps- 
 there is rather more phthisis amongst miners than 
 amongst iron and steel workers ; I should be inclined 
 to say that. 
 
 5500. Would that be got from rock dust, silica rock 
 dust ? — ^No ; I do not know that I would b-e inclined to 
 say that it is. I think perhaps they are not men of 
 quite the same stamina as the iron and steel workers. 
 As a whole, the iron and steel workers are a superior 
 class of men to the miners, 
 
 5501. Then you do not put down fibroid phthisis, or 
 what we may call dust phthisis, you do not put that 
 down as an industrial disease specially incident to 
 either the iron and steel worker or the miner ?— It is 
 very rarely discovered ; we h&vehad very few cases of it 
 Amongst some of the very old miners we still get evi- 
 dences of inhalation of coal dust in their early years, 
 but amongst the middle-aged and the younger miners 
 there is not very much of it. As a class, perhaps 
 I should say that they might be rather more troubled 
 with bronchitis than the iron and steel workers ; I am 
 not aware of anything beyond that. 
 
 5502. Is there any characteristic industrial disease 
 connected with either of those trades that occurs to 
 you ? — ^Not in the way of disease. 
 
 5503. What would there be? — ^Well, this question of 
 beat hajnd and beat knee is certainly one that we do 
 come across in connection with the miners, and'theso 
 ailments are undoubtedly caused by their occupation. 
 
 5504. Are beat hand and beat knee the only ail- 
 ments that you would describe as industrial diseases? 
 — There is, of course, miners' nystagmus. 
 
 5505. Theee are the only ones ? — The only ones that 
 come under my observation. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 173 
 
 5506. I suppose you would not call this ailment beat 
 hand unless there was suppuration, would you — forma- 
 tion of matter ? — Yes ; they sometimes come, fortu- 
 nately for themselves, before there is any suppuration 
 at all, when the hand is merely in a condition of in- 
 flammation, and my* experience is tliat if they stop 
 work and have it treated, at the end of a week the 
 hand is right again ; but when they do not come early, 
 once suppuration starts, the condition is exceedingly 
 serious. 
 
 5507. Then thie inflammation that you describe is 
 more than the sort of inflammation that would be 
 caused by the handling of tools, or by handling cricket 
 bats and things like that? — No, I think that is just 
 the beginning of it, only they continue working too 
 long ;, if thiey would stop working as soon as the inflam- 
 mation sets in, then there is a chance of the condition 
 subsiding ; if they do not do that, the inflammatory 
 condition extends, and then we have a very bad 
 cellulitis following. 
 
 5503. What is the difitinguishing point between what 
 you have termed the inflammation and just the ordinary 
 soreneea which a, person may get from handling a 
 hammer? — It is merely of degree, it is merely the 
 result of continuing working when they should stop ; 
 it sets up cellulitis if they continue working, it ex- 
 tends deeper — that is, at the roots of the fingers and 
 cm. Ilhe palm of the hand they have thickened parts, 
 there is thickened skin, and it is the pressure of the 
 instrument on that that sets up the inflammation 
 underneath it ; if they stop work as soon as they feel 
 the hand beginning to pain them a little, inflammation 
 subsides, and if they do not stop work it extends, and 
 we have suppuration up along the sides of the fingers 
 and along the back of the hand, and the condition re- 
 sulting is very serious indeed. 
 
 5509. The only thing that strikes me isi this : sup- 
 posing this beat hand weire put in the third schedule 
 to the Act, and a mian knew that for a six days' disable- 
 ment he would get no compensation, and he felt a 
 touch of beat hand coming on, would not be be in- 
 clined to stay a day longer at his work and then try 
 for compensation rather than stop at once and get 
 healed and pay for it in his own time ? — That depends 
 to a large extent on the individual. I find that the 
 miners and other workmen are very much like 
 humanity generally, you find good and bad ; there are 
 some who are very unwilling to take any advantage of 
 their right to compensation at all — they want to get 
 back to their work — and others again would continue 
 to claim compensation as long as the doctor would 
 sign ' a line for them ; but then, of course, I do' not 
 look upon this as an accident — it is not an accident. 
 
 5510. I suppose it could not be described as an acci- 
 dent? — No, it is the continuous pressure. It is an 
 injury, but not an accident. 
 
 5511. According to your view, it seems to us to be 
 rather difficult to draw the dividing line ; the injury 
 ought to be sufiiciently serious to enable the disease 
 resulting therefrom to be put down in the third 
 schedule? — Yes, it is a very serious condition if it 
 comes to be an actual cellulitis, because men are often 
 off miany weeks with a very serioius hand ; in fact, they 
 run a very great risk of loss of life. I have known of 
 one or two instances where a finger had to be ampu- 
 tated as the result of it ultimately, but that is not a 
 usual thing. I think I only know of two cases within 
 20 years. 
 
 5512. While it is not fair, perhaps, that compensa- 
 tion should be claimed for a mere inflammation, when- 
 ever suppuration supervenes a new state of things has 
 occnrr^ which constitutes, as it were, a distinctive 
 stag of the disease ; you see what I mean — cellulitis 
 would cover the inflammatory stage as well as 
 the Buppurative stage ?— That is a continuation. Very 
 frequently they continue working and come to us ; they 
 have come to me to begin with after it has really gone 
 beyond the stage of possible cure, when it has extended 
 60 as to be a very bad cellulitis. 
 
 5513. It might be a question, then, if a man let the 
 injury run on in that way, whether he would get com- 
 pensation under the Act, whether he has not produced 
 the disease deliberately? — If he were to stop work 
 immediately he felt it painful I have no hesitation in 
 saying that by far the majority, if not all the cases, 
 would recover without any suppuration . 
 
 5514. If you took the very widest view of the term 
 inflammation, would that lead to compensation being 
 
 }fr. J. 
 Fothering- 
 
 ham, 
 M.B.,C.M., 
 
 L.F.P.S. 
 
 claimed for a very large number of cases of small in- 
 flammations of a very unimportant character? — No, 
 not such a very big number ; it would not lead to so 
 niany cases of compensation as men receiving compara- 
 tively trivial injuries and continuing to work with 
 them ; there are many more cases of blood poisoning 
 and cellulitis following small scratches and slight ^' Jan. 1 907. 
 wounds that the men continue to work with, 
 work perhaps for a week or 10 days ,or a fortnight; 
 in fact, I have one on hand just now who workei for 
 three weeks, and is now suffering very badly. 
 
 5515. It would be far better they should stop the 
 work and get well before they resumed ? — Yes. 
 
 5516. And then I suppose you would also perhaps 
 contend that the fact that they were only getting a 
 diminished wage when they were off work would not 
 make them anxious to stay off too long? — I should 
 think it is an almost impossible thing to decide, 
 because one man with a mere scratch would continue 
 working and not be the worse for it, in fact a dozen 
 might do so, and the thirteenth man might suffer — ■ 
 he might have suppuration or something following — 
 and if every man with a slight scratch or a slight 
 bruise were to leave off his work I am afraid the work 
 would not go on very well, because they are continu- 
 ally getting slight bruises and slight scratches, and 
 are able to continue with them. 
 
 5517. But these scratches would not be included in 
 your word cellulitis ?— Not at the time, but then sup- 
 puration is set up afterwards ; if they continue work- 
 ing the part gets gradually inflamed, till ultimately 
 they have got to leave off with a very bad cellulitis. 
 
 5518. But you would not call a cellulitis got by an 
 injury on the back of the hand a beat hand, would 
 you ; there might be a cellulitis from anything ? — From 
 a mere prick of the finger. 
 
 5519. But you are now getting outside the question 
 of beat hand, are you not? — I am referring to a,ny acci- 
 dent that might occur; very often the accident is 
 merely trivial to begin with, but after working for 
 several days or a week it is converted from being a very 
 slight injury into a very serious one. The men them- 
 selves are aware that it is a slight injury ; they do not 
 think it is worth while attending to it ; the wound has 
 not been properly cleaned, and dirt has got into it 
 possibly. To begin with it is a mere scratch, and then 
 the serious consequences follow ; I mean there are 
 more cases of that sort, more serious cases following 
 scratches, than there are serious cases following beat 
 hand. If beat hand and the suppuration following it 
 were made a subject for compensation, there would be 
 fewer claims to pay from that than there would be 
 from serious suppuration following slight injuries. 
 
 5520. {Professor Allbutt.) When this Committee is 
 asked to consider beat hand, do you think that those 
 persons who wished us to schedule beat hand ever in- 
 tended to include all these other things?— Of course 
 they are included now ; compensation has got to be 
 paid in those cases at the present time. 
 
 5521. Would it be called beat hand ? — It would not 
 be called beat hand ; this has nothing to do with beat 
 hand — it is merely answering the question about the 
 frequency with which compensation might be paid ; it 
 has nothing to do with beat hand whatever. 
 
 5522. (Dr. Legge.) Can you define exactly what you 
 mean by beat hand? — These conditions that I am 
 speaking of have nothing to do with beat hand ; I was 
 asked about the frequency with which claims for com- 
 pensation might be put in, and in regard to that what 
 I say is that claims for compensation for beat hand 
 would not be nearly so great as the claims which follow 
 from trivial injuries which are paid now. 
 
 5523. (Chairman.) Will you give us a scientific 
 medical definition of beat hand, define it as nearly as 
 you can? — It starts as a dermatitis. 
 
 5524. Can you give us a proper definition? — It de- 
 pends on the degree ; I don't know that you could define 
 it, except stating it that way from the beginning. It 
 starts with a dermatitis, with a cellulitis following it 
 
 a dermatitis, inflammation of the skin, proceeding 
 
 to cellulitis, with suppurative cellulitis following. 
 
 5525. (Dr. Legge.) Won't you fix the place where it 
 occurs ? — It is on the palm of the hand, of course, just 
 at the roots of the fingers, and it- can be at the root of 
 any finger. 
 
 5526. Is it connected with the tendon sheaths? — It 
 
174 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE; 
 
 Mr. J. 
 F - tiering - 
 
 ham, 
 M.B., CM., 
 
 L.F.P.S. 
 
 spreads along them ultimately once it goee deep 
 enough. 
 
 5527. ytrofessor Allbutt.) Would palmar cellulitis 
 do ? — I do not think the line that it takes is the palm 
 of the hand, it is more along the sides of the fingers 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. ^^^ along the hack of the hand ; it is almost, as a 
 
 rule, at the root of the finger, and sometimes at the 
 
 b^ck of the hand, but it does not spread so much up 
 the palm of the hand ; it is to the back, because there 
 is less resistance at the back. 
 
 5528. I think, then, the name palmar cellulitis 
 might be used? — There is less resistance towards the 
 sides and up the back, and that is the reason it extends 
 in that way rather than up the palm of the hand ; it is 
 a bad case indeed when there is anything up the palm 
 of the hand ; it spreads up the sides of the fingers and 
 the back of the hand, as I say, along the lines of least 
 resistance, but it would be very dilticuk to define it 
 properly. 
 
 5529. (Chairman.) Palmar cellulitis, popularly 
 known as beat hand, would that do for you ? — If there 
 is. practically no cellulitis there, and you have the 
 most of the cellulitis up the sides of the fingers and 
 the back, that could not be called palmar cellulitis. I 
 am afraid I must say I am unable to give an exact 
 name for it. 
 
 5530. (Professor Allbutt.) How would it do, then, to 
 call it traumatic cellulitis of the hand, and leave out 
 the palm altogether 1- — Yes, without defining the palm, 
 I think so. There would be less likely to be difiiculty 
 afterwards, because if it were called palmar cellulitis, 
 and it was discovered that the cellulitis was in the 
 fingers, I think it would be quite a legitimate objection 
 for one to take that it is not palmar cellulitis— that it 
 is up along the back. 
 
 5531. (Chairman.) Have you anything to tell us 
 about beat elbow? We have heard something about 
 that. Is it common ? — Not very common ; miners' 
 elbow is a thing we do not see amongst miners prac- 
 tically at all. 
 
 5532. You would hardly call that a characteristic 
 industrial disease ? — Oh, no. 
 
 5533. Beat knee, would you call that a character- 
 istic industrial disease ? — Yes, that is just practically 
 the same as that on the hand ; it very often starts, 
 however, as a little furuncule, and then has a cellulitis 
 following that, but that is not so frequent by any 
 means as the condition in the hand, in my experience. 
 
 5534. (Professor Allbutt.) We were contemplating 
 bursitis, I mean that is what we have been thinking 
 of as beat knee? — In domestic servants you get that 
 more often than in miners. 
 
 5535. Mr. Brown frequently used the word pustule, 
 and we could not then quit© accept that word. Would 
 he be fairly correct, however, in saying it began in a sort 
 of pustule about the knee, using the word in its 
 Ijroadest sense ? — Yes ; but I could not swear in any 
 case that that pustule was the result of pressure on 
 the knee ; it is merely what I understand is beat 
 knee. What I have come across in workmen who 
 work on their knees has been this : that the con- 
 dition has started as a little pustule or a little 
 furuncule, and then there has been an abscess following 
 afterwards ; that is what I understand is beat knee. 
 With regard to the bursitis, I do not think we have 
 any more of that amongst the miners than we 
 liave amongst the general public. My experience is 
 that it is much oftener in females than it is in males — 
 ordinary patellar bursitis. With regard to beat hand, 
 I may remark I find much more amongst the iron and 
 steel workers who are working with tools that they 
 have to grip very firmly than amongst the miners ; it 
 is not confined to miners. 
 
 6536. (Chairman.) There is steel workers' beat hand ? 
 
 — If you call it miners' beat hand, it is the same thing 
 that occurs in the steel workers, and my experience is 
 that steel workers have it more than miners, only my 
 experience is more amongst steel workers than amongst 
 miners, and probably that is the reason of it"; but I 
 have frequently come across it amongst steel workers, 
 men who have to work with tongs or other instruments, 
 and have to grip very firmly, and they get hard nieces 
 along the palm of the hand, and some time or other it 
 inflames beneath ; but it is the very same thing that 
 occurs amongst miners, and if it were called miners' 
 beat hand to the exclusion of that in iron and steel 
 workers, it would scarcely be right, I think. 
 
 5537. You don't quite see why it should be put 
 down as a disease of miners and not also of steel 
 workers?— No, it is not of miners entirely; it is all 
 workmen who have got to grip tools. 
 
 5538. You will have carpenters, I suppose ?— Yes, 
 any man who has to work with tools ; it is not specially 
 a miners' disease, certainly not. I should say that 
 most emphatically. 
 
 5539. On the other hand, the beat knee of the miner 
 is more characteristic of the miner because in other 
 trades you do not have to kneel so much? — That is so. 
 
 5640. It is the special position, this crouching down, 
 that makes it rather special to miners ? — Yes ; but it 
 is a comparatively rare thing. 
 
 5541. Can you give us a medical definition of beat 
 knee ? — 'Well, I do not know that you could put it 
 any differently, it starts as a dermatitis with a cellu- 
 litis succeeding it. 
 
 5542. Have you seen any cases of miners' nystagmus! 
 — Yes, we occasionally come across cases of miners' 
 nystagmus. 
 
 5543. Have you come across cases of poisoning with 
 nitrous fumes from explosives? — No. 
 
 5544. Have you come across cases of poisoning with 
 carbon monoxide? — ^Not much now; but perhaps' a 
 score of years ago in the steelworks they had an anti- 
 quated system of manufacturing gas, and we got that 
 very much. 
 
 5545. Were the effects temporary, or did they leave 
 permanent eflfects? — At that time permanent. 
 
 5546. What were the permanent symptoms ; you 
 may take it I do not ask the temporary symptomB, 
 because we know them pretty well, but what were the 
 permanent symptoms? — Heart mischief almost in- 
 variably ; but that is a thing of the past, because the 
 method of gais manufacture in steelworks now is very 
 different, and I cannot say that we come across any 
 cases of poisoning now. 
 
 5547. How about bronchitis brought on by different 
 causes? Is that a thing to which miners or steel 
 workers are particularly liable? — Well, miners, I 
 think, possibly are a little more subject to bronchitis 
 than the general public, but not to any very great 
 extent, certainly not to the extent that I would ever 
 think of putting it down as an industrial disease. 
 
 5548. (Dr. Legge.) With regard to those heart 
 affections produced by inhalation of carbon monoxide, 
 would you describe them just a little more fully 7— That 
 is not a thing, I should think, of the present day. I 
 refer to peirhaps fifteen or twenty years ago, but I could 
 almost invariably diagnose a man who wrought at the 
 gas in the steel works when he came into tl^ consult- 
 ing room from the peculiar lividity of his face, his 
 breathlessness, and his pulse being all wrong. There 
 was no doubt that many apparently strong young men 
 who came over from Ireland and attempted to go to that 
 work because the wagesi were ratbeof fcreater than at an 
 ordinary iron works were wrecks at the end of several 
 months ; that was the condition of matters about that 
 time, but it is a very different matter now. We do 
 not come across that now. 
 
 Mr. Donald MacPhail, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. D. 
 
 MacPhail, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 5549. (Chairman.) Are you in general practice? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5550. Where, please? — Coatbridge, Lanarkshire. 
 
 5551. Are you connected with any employers' or 
 workmen's associations? What is the general nature 
 of your relationship with the workmen?— The main 
 part of my practice is in connection with collieries 
 and iron works. 
 
 5552. Is that as the medical man belonging to the 
 colliery ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5553. How many coUieriesi do you minister to?— One 
 large one and two small ones, and two iron works, 
 for some time there, hut one Las now ceased working. 
 
 5554. I think you are prepaared to give us some 
 observations upon various forms of disease T— Yes. 
 
 5555. Supposing we first take fibrosis oi the lung*-* 
 
DEPARTMENTAL :c6MMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 175 
 
 I will call it grit phthisis, if that definition will suit 
 you? — Miners' astiima is the old nam© for it in this 
 part of th© country. 
 
 5556. One would call it grit phthisis to distinguish 
 it from that phthisis which is not caugiht through grit 1 
 —Yes. » 
 
 5557. I suppose, as a medioal man, yooi would recog- 
 nise the possibility, given a full knowledge of the cir- 
 cumstances, in the majority of cases of distinguishing 
 between a case of phthisis caught through grit and a 
 case of phthisis of an ordinary character, which might 
 be, caught by a man working in grit and yet 
 not be due to the grit? — ^That would depend alto- 
 gether upon the stage of thei disease at which you saw 
 the man ; it would be very difficult to draw a dis- 
 tinction in the early stages' ; in the later stages there 
 is no difficulty. 
 
 5558. But even in the earlier stages, if you knew the 
 whole history of the man, and had a right to aisk any 
 question you liked, you might be able to draw a fairly 
 clear distinction? — I have not been a,ble to do so, 
 although that is a point that I have been interested 
 in all my days, because I saw one or two cases when 
 I was a student in hospital — t)hey were rare then, and 
 they are rarer now — and hearing lectures by Professor 
 Gairdner on tihe subject, and with my mind specially 
 directed to that I have not been able tO' satisfy myself 
 that there are distinguishing, points in the early 
 stages that you could rely upon as guides, what you 
 could call sure sigps. The age of the patient might 
 give you some suggestion, the family history might 
 give you an idea ; if yooi knew the character of the 
 workings that the man was in, that too might help 
 you ; but from the clinical signs I do not think you 
 could in an early stage, or even until it was consider- 
 ably advanced, confidently distinguish it. 
 
 5559. But still in the more severe cases it becomes 
 easier? — The moire advanced it is, the easier it is to 
 distinguisihl 
 
 5560. I suppose that the disease begins to show 
 itself, you would agree, at about forty years of age, 
 after some twenty years' working at the grinding or the 
 occupation, whatever it may be? — That would depend 
 upon the occupation, I think, a good deal. In some 
 occupations it appears much earlier thaii in others ; I 
 believe in the grinders it appears very much earlier 
 than it does in miners, and I think it appears about 
 as early in breakers as it does in anybody. 
 
 5561. The last witness told usi that he did not think 
 there was any very special phthisis among miners, not 
 above ordinary occupations through the country. 
 What do you say to that ? — I agree. Miners' phthisis 
 of grit phthisis is very rare now, or at least rare. 
 
 5562. What about the men engaged in steel and iron 
 works ? — ^There the disease is almost unknown. I have 
 a case on hand just now, a man who is what is called a 
 breaker. The pig iron is broken mechaJiically. It is 
 lifted out of the bed with a very large quantity of sand 
 adhering to it, and his business is with his breaker, 
 a modified steam hammer, to break it into small 
 pieces, and h© stands all day in a cloud of sand. That 
 man has devoloped the disease very rapidly — in about 
 four years ; he has 'been four years at that particular 
 work, but that is tiie first case that I have seen in 
 connection with iron works for many many years. 
 
 6563. Tour view would perliape rather be that among 
 those occupied generally in iron works phthisis would 
 not be very common, but that there may be special 
 occupatioins in an iron works which might become 
 dangerous? — That is so. 
 
 5564. Regarding the unloading of Spanish iron ore. 
 we have had evidence that that cause® phthisis. It is 
 from the secretary of the trade union w© had that? — 
 There is a lot of that ™e» on in our district, but I have 
 had no such experience. 
 
 5565. You could not say one way or the other ? — No ; 
 my attention has not been specially drawn to that by the 
 number of cases turning up, or anything of that 
 sort. For a short time there was a gang of plate- 
 layers working in the works, mostly young men not 
 long over from Ireland, and they went down with 
 phthisis one after another at a most extraordinary 
 rate. I was inclined to attribute that to bad con- 
 ditions of lodgings more than to their occupation, 
 
 5566. And you did not think it was true fibroid 
 phthisis ?— No, it was very rapid phthisis, vpith early 
 hftmoptysis, most cases being fatal after a few months. 
 
 fumes — that is, from ectplcsives. Have you any ex- 
 perience of that ? — I have seen a good many cases, but 
 it is temporary. 
 
 5566. It does not leave permanent effects ? — I have 
 not seen any permanent ettects. 
 
 5569. It would be, in fact, treated as an accident 
 would it not?— I really cannot tell you. 
 
 5570. Have you known of compensation being paid 
 for those cases ? — They have never been so long ill as 
 to fill the fortnight necessary to entitle them to com- 
 pensation. 
 
 5571. And you have not known of death from that? 
 — No, I have not ; there was one particular explosive 
 roburite — that the men refused to work with. 
 
 5572. Then poisoning from carbonic oxide. The 
 immediate effects we are pretty well acquainted with ; 
 but have you any experience of permanent efEeots ? — 
 None. I have not seen such a case. The temporary 
 efEeots we are very familiar with. I have been speak- 
 ing to one or two of the old furnace managers, one a 
 man of thirty years' experience in some of the largest 
 iron works, just yesterday, and he never knew of a 
 case of a man being permanently disabled owing to 
 such fumes. 
 
 5573. Now, to take 'beat hand, can you give us a 
 medical definition of beat hand ? — Well, I did not know 
 what beat hand meant until I was listening to you 
 when you were examining Dr. Fotheringham. Beat 
 band is an inflammation produced by friction, chafing 
 by tool handles, chafing of the skin by tools, I should 
 say, which inflammation may extend deeper and be- 
 come cellulitis, ending, as any cellulitis may, in sup 
 puration. 
 
 5574. Is that common to other professions besides 
 miners — for instance, steel workers ? — Yes ; but in my 
 experience it has been more frequent among miners 
 than any other men I have had to do with. 
 
 5575. Would you treat it rather as a specific miners 
 disease, then? — As it happens, I have had more ex- 
 perience among miners than Dr. Fotheringham, and 
 he has had more experience amongst steel workert 
 than I have, but it is not infrequent among miners. 
 
 5576. The same remark applies to beat knee ? — ^Yes,, 
 but there is a distinction to be drawn there. Beat 
 knee is a diilerent thing altogether from bursitis. 
 
 5577. It is something like beat hand apparently 
 then ? — It is just the fellow of beat hand, superficial 
 inflammation from chafing, and very often from 
 poisoning of a small scratch ot wound, men working 
 in dirty water, and it becomes deeper, becomes cellu- 
 litis, and may go on to suppuration, and the forma- 
 tion of abscess ; it is not so apt to spread as the sup- 
 puration of a beat hand is apt to do. 
 
 5578. I suppose if the men gave their hands some car- 
 bolic dressing, in nine cases out of ten it would stop the 
 whole thing? — ^It would very likely be well again in a 
 day or two day si, with proper bathing and dressing. A 
 great many of the cases are due to want of cleanliness ; 
 it is one of the contributing causes of the beat hand. 
 
 5579. Do the men take down with them any bottles, 
 containing carbolic acid and water, or something of 
 that sort ?-— No ; but they have dressing boxes at the pit 
 head, but that would mean going along a mile or two 
 of workings. They have tincture of myrrh in the 
 stables down below, and they use that, which is not a 
 bad thing. 
 
 5580. What would you recomanend for men to use 
 for dressing if they cut their hands ? — Carbolic oil. It 
 keeps well, and does not lose its strength. 
 
 5581. It possibly would be good for the employers to 
 provide some carbolic oil ? — ^Yes, there is always carbolic 
 oil at the pit head. 
 
 5582. But it would probably be wise to have a little 
 dovm below, and a man might smear his hand im- 
 mediately he got his hand cut? — If tljpy would do it; 
 they are not so careful of themselves as all that. The 
 bursitis is a different thing altogether, and in my 
 experience it has been just as frequent a cause of dis- 
 ablement as the other. 
 
 5583. (Professor Allhutt.) Are there two kinds of beat 
 knee ? — Housemaid's knee is a very common thing 
 among colliers ; miners' elbow is a rare thing among 
 colliers, but it sometimes occurs—that is beat elbow ; 
 it is a different thing from the beat hand. 
 
 5584. And the beat knee may either be a bursitis or 
 it may arise from an external chafing ? — Cellulitis. 
 
 Mr. D. 
 
 MaePhail, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. 
 
 5567. Now let us take illness set up by nitrous 5585. A poisoned lesion which penetrates ?— Yes. 
 
176 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. D. 5586. {Dr. Legge.) What is your objection to the 
 
 MacPhail, term that we had thought of before, traumatic cellu- 
 
 M. D. litis of the hand and traumatic cellulitis over the knee ? 
 
 — Well, beat knee is a local term and beat hand is a 
 
 17 Jan. 1907. local term. 
 
 5587. What is your objection to the more scientific 
 description of it as traumiatic cellulitis of the hand 7 — 
 Because that is a stage of it. We have a good many cases 
 painful enough and bad enough to disable men that 
 i^a.e not reached the stage of cellulitis. Cellulitis 
 means a certain depth. 
 
 5588. I thought your definition was too long, super- 
 ficial inflammation from chafing of the skin ? — ^You can 
 call it chafing if you like. 
 
 5589. You want to describe the inflammation as an 
 " itis " of some sort ? — Traumatic dermatitis, in many 
 cases septic, which by extension deerper leads to cellu- 
 litis, which may in turn lead to suppuration and 
 formation of abscess, with the usual concomitant con- 
 stitutional effects. 
 
 5590-1. (Chairman.) Will you tell us now about car- 
 diac dilatation. Is that peculiar to miners or to steel 
 workers, or is it a thing that may happen to men in 
 any occupation ? — -It may happen to men in any occu- 
 pation. I have never seen a case in a miner ; I have 
 seen one or two cases in iron workers, men who filled 
 the ore. 
 
 5592. Porters and dock labourers might have the 
 same thing ? — Much more likely, I should think. 
 
 5593. I think you have got here a list of causes of 
 death in 187 colliers, accidents not included. How were 
 these collected ; from what source ? — The counterfoils 
 of my death certificates. I happen to have kept them 
 for twenty-five years. 
 
 5594. And you have given here in each case the causS 
 of death ?— Yes. 
 
 5595. Does this list of causes of death present any 
 features that ought to be brought before us, that would 
 be useful to us in our inquiry into diseases 
 peculiar to occupations ? — ^I do not know that it does ; 
 it is very interestino; to me ; but I do not think that 
 it brings out any special feature. There is one feature, 
 the pulmonary diseases account for 82 out of 187 deaths. 
 
 5596. That is rather high?— It is pretty high. I 
 really do not know how that will compare with an in- 
 
 ■ dustrial population similar in social standing in other 
 - parts of the country. 
 
 5597. Phthisis, for instance, I see comes in here. 
 That will be both tuberculous phthisis and fibroid 
 phthisis ? — ^It is tuberculous phthisis strictly, as far aa 
 I could diagnose it. 
 
 5598. And how about the fibroid dust phthisis?— 
 That would come under chronic bronchitis, but I do not 
 think I have signed more than five death certificates all 
 :ciy time as being due to fibroid phthisis. 
 
 5599. So that ooii, of the 54 cases of chronic bron- 
 chitis which, you have written down here, we may say 
 
 that five or six or seven ? — ^Would be undoubted 
 
 oases of fibroid phthisis. 
 
 5600. Then- you would have ordinary phthisis, as 
 against that, 14? — Yes. Then theP3 is one case of 
 pulmonary apoplexy mentioned there. I think that 
 was also a case of fibroid phthisis. It was a very in- 
 teresting case to me — an old man who had begun work- 
 ing at six or seven years, and worked on to within a 
 ftitnight of his death at 87. Ho died 25 years ago, 
 «o that he oould describe to me conditions which 
 existed below groujid 105 years ago. A very intelligent 
 old fellow he was, and he continued working after the 
 'fibroid phthisis was very bad for many years. 
 
 5601. (Professor Allbutt.) Was all your pneumonia 
 alcoholic ? — No ; that was merely a note. It means 
 ■that a considerable nnmber of those cases, if you had 
 tx5 classify them, would have to be classified as alco- 
 holics. I would like to rewrite that — ^write it out a 
 "little more fully, because I have one or two notes there 
 
 to remind me of things. One point about it is, I have 
 noted the average age at death of the cases as 54 years 
 
 of age, which is a fairly good average for working men, 
 I thini ; but the figure is quite unreliable, because in 
 a very large number of those cases the age is under- 
 stated for insurance purposes. I have discovered in 
 many cases that the men are really 10, 12, and 15 years 
 older than they are stated to be. This was done for 
 insuranoa purposes, and the relatives, of course, are 
 very anxious that we should give the insurance figure. 
 The result ie that in a great many oases we do not 
 put in any figure at all ; we prefer not to put down 
 what we know to be a false figure. Thers was one 
 famous case in our district where the real age was 
 96 and the insured age was 64 — 32 years off, a pretty 
 good deduction to make. I expect that applies aU 
 over the country — that the age at death of working 
 men as stated in statistics is absolutely nnreliable. 
 You could jadd five or six, I think, to the figure; I 
 think probably the average age was really 58 or 56. 
 
 5602. (Chairman.) We have heard a good many argu, 
 ments publicly put forward about the early age at 
 which men die in industries, and you think that that 
 ought to be looked upon with some care? — ^Yes, with 
 grave suspicion. 
 
 5603. (Dr. Legge.) Do you thinik that many of these 
 men here who are said to give up work before they 
 were 40, or at 40, were really 50? — I believe so, some 
 of them — a good many of them. 
 
 5604. (Chairman.) Occasionally what is called a 
 prematurely-aged man is sometimes really older than 
 the age given ? — ^Yes, very much ; I could not give 
 the figures, but on the back of a good many 
 of these death certificates I have jotted down that 
 point. I found that one man who was supposed to 
 bd 54 was insured as being 41 ; another one, who was 
 supposed: to be 82, was insured as 71 ; and this one 
 that I speak of was supposed to be 96, and was insured 
 as 64. That was the case of a woman, but it shows the 
 principle on which the thing goes. She was shown oB 
 as a show case. She was present in B.russels at the 
 time of the Battle of Waterloo — she was a lady's maid 
 to a lady there — and people used to come and see her 
 and reckon up her age, but when it camo to filling 
 up her death certificate I was asked to put her age 
 down as 64 to satisfy the insTirance people. In my 
 table alcoholism might be more prominent but for lihe 
 fact that W3 have to be very careful not to put that 
 into death certificates for the same reason — ^thait the 
 insurance money would very likely be refused, so we 
 have to beat about the bush. 
 
 5605. (Professor Allbutt.) Do those societies get no 
 evidence of age ? — Those who were born before 1858 
 might be registered, and might not. I have put down 
 as alcoholic, pneumonia, apoplexy, senile debility, 
 diarrhoea, cirrhosis of the liver, and gastritis. I am 
 sure a large proportion of these cases were really alco- 
 holic deaths, but we dare not say so, because the in- 
 Buranoe money would be refused if we did. There are 
 one or two cases in which I have put in D.T., but 
 those were cases in which there was no insurance 
 money in question. 
 
 5606. (Chairman.) The last point is trade eczema?— 
 That I have not sesn ; but I have mentioned the occnr- 
 Tonoe of boils in the feet and hands of men workinfi 
 in dirty water in the pit. TQiat is a well-reoosnised 
 thing. That is very much improved lately, owing ts 
 improved drainage in the pit. 
 
 5607. I suppose that is not different from what is got 
 by grooms in dirty stables ? — ^Identical. 
 
 5608. (Professor Allbutt.) In the earlier stages does 
 nystagimxis interefere at all with a man's going on 
 with his work ? — I do not think it does at any stage. 
 I have only had one case of nystagmus, I think, in 
 my time, hut we have a family in our district who 
 have oongsnital nystagmus. Out of 500 or 560 in- 
 dividuals there are 100 or 200 who have had nystagmus, 
 some of them very marked ; they have had it all their 
 lives, and it does not interfere with their work a bit. 
 
 5609. In the mines of which you have supervision ■ 
 do they work with naked lights ? — ^Naked entirely ; that 
 is the reason why it is so rare, we believe. 
 
 Mr. John M. BtrcHANAN, m.b., cm., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. M. 6610. (Dr. Lenge.) You are the appointed surgeon 
 Buchanan, ^nder the Special Rules for bichromate factories at 
 M.B., CM. certain works ?— Yes. 
 
 5611. How long have you held that appointment ?- 
 I have held it for about five years, I think. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 177 
 
 5612. How often do you examine the men tliere ? — 
 Once a month at least. 
 
 5613. How many meai are there employed, whom 
 you examine? — There will be, on an average, about 
 35 weeMy, or about 14g a month. 
 
 5614. And what are they engaged in doing ? — Some 
 at the fumaoe and others in the chrome floor. 
 
 5615. In the crystal-house? — ^Yes — som#. 
 
 5616. "What are the lesions from^ which th'3se men 
 suffer? — The chief lesions, of course, are the perfora- 
 tions of the septum andl chrome holes. 
 
 5617. Would you describe the perforation of the 
 septum?' — ^Well, after a few hours in the work stome 
 have a distinct milkiness of the mucous membrane of 
 the septtun, which increases in the course of nest day ; 
 on the second day sometimes there is even lan ulcera- 
 tion, and it goes from less to more, and then in a fort- 
 night up to six weeks or three months it becomes 
 perforated. 
 
 5618. What percentage of the men suffer from this 
 perforation of the eeptum? — All those in the crystal 
 floor suffer from it ; they all suffer from it. 
 
 5619. So that, of the 100 workers employed in the 
 chrome depart.ment, there will be 90 per cent, with this 
 perforation? — I should say fully that, if not all of 
 them. 
 
 5620. Does this perforation of the .septum cause 
 serious illness? — No. Some of them complain of a 
 little catarrh, a little cold in the head, and others 
 have no complaint of anything. 
 
 5621. Does it lead' to abstention from work? — ^No. 
 
 5622. Are there cases where you would like to recom- 
 mend them to be absent from work for a week or so? 
 — ^That is to say, as regards the number of chrome 
 holes in their hands ? 
 
 5623. No, for the perforation of the septum ? — No, 
 they never complain of it seriously. 
 
 5624. Do you think that, supposing this diseiase was 
 scheduled, and therefore the workers could obtain com- 
 pensation for injury done, that they would then be 
 inclined to absent themselves from wtork, and say they 
 could not work .because of the inflamed condition of 
 their nose? — No, I do not think there is more than 
 peithaps maybe 20 or 30 per cent, of them complain of 
 their nose, being sore, and that is only for the fiist fort- 
 night or three weeks ; they never seem to complain of 
 it afterwards. 
 
 5625. But what I .am thinking of is that they might 
 be inclined to feel it more when they felt that if they 
 were .absent for a week or a f o.rtnight they would be 
 getting some pa.yment ; you do' not anticipate that? — 
 No, I do not. 
 
 5626. Do yon know of anything that would stop this 
 perforation of the septum: of the nose? — I tried the 
 insertion of cotton-wool into the nostrils, but it is 
 so difficult to get the men to. ibe interested in their own 
 welfare that they will not continue it. I believe that 
 if it was .general, and aU the workers used; it, then it 
 might succeed, bfut for one or two to do it they look 
 upon themselves as being more observed than the 
 others. 
 
 5627. To what do you attribute the perforation of 
 the nostrils — to dust, or the introduction of the fingei- ? 
 — I think the dust. 
 
 5628. And does it proceed more rapidly in one de- 
 partment than in another ? — Yes, in the crystal house. 
 
 5629. Have you noticed any improvement lately since 
 the introduction of improved exhaust ventilation ? — No, 
 I could not say that I have, as no new man 'has been 
 engaged yet. 
 
 5630. It is an exceedingly subtle and rapid process ? 
 —Tea, 
 
 5631. This perforation of the septum defies all the 
 efforts yo.u have made to p.revent it 1 — Yes. 
 
 5632. Then with regard to. the ulcers in the skin, 
 would you describe them ? — It is due to a little break 
 in. the skin which receives the chroTnic acid,, amd, 
 unless the worker is careful and clean about his person, 
 the ulceraition becomes deeper ajid deeper until an 
 ulcer is formed in a day or two* days, and then if it is 
 allowed to develop, tihe edges of thei ulcer become 
 elevated and eschar is formed in the centre. 
 
 5633. Do they heal quickly ? — Well, within a week or 
 10 days w© get them to heal. 
 
 419 
 
 5634. Is that under treatment ? — Yee. 
 
 Mr. J. M. 
 
 5635. And if they are left to themselves? — They go Buchanay,, 
 from bad to worse. M.B., cm. 
 
 5636. So that they may last for months ?— Yes, they 17 J^. 1907. 
 may, except they t.ake care of them. 
 
 5637. And getting larger and larger all the time ?^ 
 Yes, or rather deeper and deeper. 
 
 5638. Do you know of instances where they have 
 penetrated to the bon© ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5639. Is that frequent ? — Not ve.ry frequent ; I think 
 I have only had .on© case of perforation to the bone, 
 and that originated in another works. 
 
 5640. Ar© th©r© many instances in which you have 
 recommended EUspe.nsion from wo.rk? — Yes, there will 
 perhaps be four or five in the year. 
 
 5641. Is that to leave the work altogether, or to be 
 transferred to some other department ? — To be trans- 
 ferred to 'som© other department. 
 
 5642. And during that transference they would not 
 neoessiairily receive compensation ? — I do not know as to 
 that, but they ar© put in oth©r situations, and I think 
 they get the same wages, or nearly the same wages. 
 
 5643. Ar© there oases where you would have liked to 
 have suspended them altogether from employment and 
 kept them at home? — No, I could not say ther© has 
 been anyone so very bad as that ; of course I have had 
 one which had to remain at home' — .a new worker who 
 was carelesis and had been at work labout a week. 
 
 5644. It was eo severe ? — Yes. 
 
 5645. For how long detained at home? — Two or 
 three months. 
 
 5646. In addition to the chrome holes, are there 
 other forms of skin eruptions that they get? — Occa^ 
 eionally those who are very sensitive to it have piistular 
 eruptions on the face, neck, hands and arms. 
 
 5647. What is th© frequency of them compared with 
 the chrome holes? — There is not more than perhaps 
 1 per cent. 
 
 5648. You have a register of the examinations you 
 make ? — Yes. 
 
 5649. Do you remember th© position of these works 
 before this examination took place; did you treat 
 many of the men in the old days ? — Not very many ; 
 formerly, about 15 years ago, I used to get them, but 
 I think the engineer of the works frpt them to go 
 to him, and he treated them, so that they never came- 
 outside to medical men. 
 
 5650. But at that time, before there was this medical 
 supervision, were these ulcers more extensive and 
 deeper than you find them now ? — ^Well, I did not ee© 
 very many previous to my lappointmient, because the 
 engineer treated them all inside the works, and they 
 did not require to come for treatment ooitside, so- for 
 maybe 10 years before that w© saw very little of them. 
 Before that, in connection with the societies, I fre- 
 quently cam© across them. 
 
 5651. Were they severer then? — Well, I think they 
 were a little bigg©r. 
 
 5652. Have you seen results on th© eyes from 
 the dnst ; does it set up inflammation of the eyes?' 
 — Yee, it would bum the eye, but not th© ordinary 
 dust of th© air. 
 
 5653. But I mean in the packing depa.rtment, for 
 instance ? — No ; I very seldom saw any ey© disease 
 except when a drop went into the eye. 
 
 5654. Does it affect the ear at all ? — No, I cannot say 
 it does, nor the throat either, and I made a careful 
 ©xaminiation for two or three years, but I could not 
 say I could- detect .any result in either ear, ©ye oir 
 throat except there was a direct application of the 
 bichromate to the part. 
 
 5655. In these works during this last year of 1905 
 can you say how many have been inoa.paoitated because 
 of the effects of th© chrome ? — Do you mean put out 
 of the work altogether ? 
 
 5656. Yes, I mean who would be unable to work and 
 would come under this Act of last session and receive 
 ciom.pensation ? — I do not think more than three or 
 four (altogether would be incapacitated for three or four 
 weeks. 
 
 5657. Is there difficulty in getting th© men to tak© 
 th© baths ? — No, I think the men take them willing! v 
 except when ithey are s'uffering from heart- disease or 
 
 Z 
 
178 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 One or two complained to me, and 
 
 Mr. J. M. Eometiiing like that. 
 Buchanan, I exempted them. 
 Ti LB., C M. 5658. It is absolutely necessary for them, when they 
 17 Jan. 1907. 6«t this trouble, to have the place coTered up while 
 . they are at work ? — Yes. 
 
 5659. You regard this as a special trade disease ? — 
 Undoubtedly. 
 
 5660. {Chairman.) Perforation of the septum of the 
 nose, I suppose, would not incapacitate a man per- 
 manently for work ? — No. 
 
 5661. If a question arose as to compensation, it would 
 be rather difficult to give anything for the perforation 
 of the nose ? — They never complain about it ; there are 
 even men going back to the work who wrought there 
 
 years and years previously. I have asked them if they 
 ever found any inconvenience from the perforation, and 
 they said no. 
 
 5662. {Br. Legge.) Does this perforation lead to any 
 deformity ? — No. 
 
 5663. Does the nose fall in ? — No. 
 
 5664. '\^'^ly is that, because other diseases of the nose 
 lead to that? — Well, it does not fall in with them; 
 there is evidently sufficient support. Some part of the 
 septum remains. So far as' regards the perforation of 
 the septum, I think it is the rapid impinging of the air 
 against the septum which causes the perforation, causes 
 a collection of dust at the back — at the very bottom — a 
 rapid striking of the septum with the particles in the 
 
 Mr. DuGALD Mitchell, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 3Ir. D, 5665. {Br. Legge.) You have been appointed surgeon 
 
 MitcheU,M.T). at bichromate works in Falkirk since 12th April, 1900 ? 
 
 — Yes. 
 
 5666. You have come here to give your experience; 
 will you briefly state that to the Committee? — I was 
 appointed at that date, 12th April, 1900, to examine 
 and treat the cases that occurred at certain works in 
 Falkirk, and since then I have visited the works 
 regularly each month and attended to the patients. 
 The number of individuals I see each month is about 
 32. Somethimes there are not so many, but they are 
 pretty busy just now, and the number is up to its 
 highest measure. I see 32 or 33 each month. 
 
 5667. Of these men how many are affected ? — I find 
 there is on an average about 12 affected within the 
 year. Throughout the year we have from 45 to 52 
 men on the register, according to the trade, and there 
 -BTe from 10 to 12 or 13 requiring treatment. 
 
 5668. And what are they requiring treatment for ? — 
 -"Mostly for the hand condition. 
 
 5669. Would you describe that? — The chrome ulcer 
 is a sluggish ulceration, usually of the fingers, some- 
 times of the knuckles, and sometimes at the junction of 
 the nail and the flesh. Its floor is grey, and its edges 
 are swollen, and the whole thing is of a sluggish 
 character. Often we find the edges undermined, and 
 it is rather a difficult matter to get them healed, 
 especially when the men are working, but I think they 
 could be healed a good deal quicker if they were 
 attended to and if they were not at work. 
 
 5670. You actually do the dressing yourself? — Well, 
 ,- as a rule I do, but I find a difficulty often in getting 
 
 them to come and have them dressed ; they have got 
 -BO accustomed to the thing, and they really do not 
 suffer miuoh. My recommendation is that they should 
 . simply be transferred to another department of the 
 works in which they do not come across chrome mate- 
 rial, and they are usually quite contented with that. 
 I find that they are practically always able to go on 
 with their work under these conditions ; I think I 
 Tiave only, during the seven years, had one who had to 
 ieep off work altogether, and that was because the 
 Tilcer was on his foot, which made it necessary he 
 ■should rest. 
 
 5671. How long was he off work ? — For, I think, threa 
 -weeks ; at any rat© he was back for inspection next 
 month. He went into hospital. He was a homeless 
 mortal, and he went into hospital for three weeks, 
 and was back for inspection next month. 
 
 5672. Is there any other lesion they sufier from? — I 
 mentioned the foot ; it is very rare, but I have seen 
 two or three cases at least during the seven years. 
 The eye is occasionally affected. I have never seen 
 it in any other part of the body, except, of course, in 
 the septum of the nose, which is invariable. In my 
 experience they are very seldom a few weeks in the 
 -work till the nostrils become affected by ulceration, 
 leading to perforation ultimately. 
 
 5673. And after perforation has taken place does the 
 process of ulceration cease ? — ^Yes, when it extends as 
 far as the usual limit. 
 
 5674. Does it lead to deformity ? — Not the least ; it 
 never does. 
 
 5675. How do you explain that some part of the 
 <;artilage remains? — I think it can only be a matter 
 of nutrition, that the nutrition of this portion of the 
 ■septum is not so good, the vascularity is not so great 
 as the vascularity of the other mucous membrane of 
 the septum, and whenever the mucous membrane gets 
 
 ulcerated through, the septum is deprived of its 
 nourishment. 
 
 5676. Are there cases where you think it would have 
 been desirable to suspend the men from employment 
 altogether, say, for a fortnight or three weeks? — Not 
 except where it was in the foot, where locomotion is 
 interfered with, but when it is limited to the hand 1 
 have not seen any cases where the men desired to be 
 off, or where I thought that from a humanitarian point 
 of view they should be off. 
 
 5677. You mentioned two cases where the eye was 
 affected, in what way? — ^Mostly conjunctivitis — marked 
 inflammation of the eye. 
 
 6678. Did not that incapacite them from work ? — 
 No, they sent them into other employment, and they 
 were quite content to go on. 
 
 5679. In the other department of the works they 
 manufacture iodine and bromine? — Iodine, but not 
 bromine. 
 
 5680. Has your attention been called to any effects 
 of iodine vapour? — No. I cannot remember having 
 any case to treat, and I decidedly saw none at these 
 works. 
 
 5681. Is there much grinding of metal in Camelon? 
 — Yes, a good deal, but I think it is nearly all the 
 wet process, except where the emery is used. 
 
 5682. Have you treated cases of fibroid phthisis 
 amongst the workers ? — I have one case just now 
 which might possibly be put down to that. He is 
 a grinder in the wet process. 
 
 5683. And what is his age? — About 30, I should 
 say. He went back to his work last week. I recom- 
 mended him to try and get away from the process. 
 
 5684. What were the symptoms in his case? — Con- 
 siderable consolidation without any marked activity; 
 no night sweats, but the cough was troublesome. 
 
 5685. Had he been under your observation for long ; 
 have you noticed the symptoms coming on gradually? 
 — No, he came under my observation for a condition 
 of the knee joint, and it was during that process that 
 he came to tell me about his cough. I know he had a 
 cough for a considerable time, although not actually 
 treated for it, and I do not think I had examined his 
 chest before that time, which would be about two 
 months ago or so, but he has gone back to his ordinary 
 occupation now. There is decided consolidation, which 
 I should say was of a fibroid character. 
 
 5686. Were there any added sounds ? — No, except 
 the tubular breathing. 
 
 5687. Did you examine to see whether there were 
 any tubercle bacilli ? — No. 
 
 5688-9. Is that the only case ? — The only one I can 
 remember. Of course, they nearly all use water on 
 the stone, but the emery grinding goes on under the 
 same roof ; it is used for polishing purposes. 
 
 5690. Do you enter the factories at all ? — Not at all. 
 I believe no medical man enters them, except when 
 there is an accident. 
 
 5691. {Chairman.) Are you acquainted with the pro- 
 cesses of polishing by materials other than emery?— 
 No. It is really not a prominent feature in our dis- 
 trict at all. I was asking another doctor, who, I 
 think, got a communication from you, if he was coming 
 here, and ho said " No. I have no experience of 
 fibroid phthisis," and he has been in Falkirk for 15 
 years. 
 
 5692. You could not help us much with regard to 
 phthisis ?— No, I do not think there is anything definite 
 I can say ori that score. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 179 
 
 EIGHTEENTH DAY. 
 
 Thursday, 2'^th January 1907. 
 
 Mr. Hekbeet SAjirEL, m.p. {Chairman). 
 Professor Clifford Allbutt, p.e.s. 
 
 JCEMBEES PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettant (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Professor W. E. Dixon, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 5692. (Chairman.) You are engaged, I think, in 
 research work in the laboratories at Cambridge, and 
 you are also Professor at King's College? — Yes. 
 
 5693. Have you made a special examination of the 
 African boxwood which is alleged to cause poisoning 
 among shuttle-makers ? — Yes. 
 
 5694. What kind of examination have you made of 
 that wood ? — I have not made a chemical examination 
 myself ; that has been done by a chemist ; but the 
 things he has obtained from the wood and the sawdust 
 itself I have made an examination of, and I have found 
 out what tissues of the body it acts upon and how it 
 acts. 
 
 5695. Are you of opinion that this wood contains a 
 poisonous substance ? — Undoubtedly ; the most im- 
 portant action of it is to paralyse the nerves. 
 
 5696. How has that fact been ascertained ? — By a 
 considerable number of experiments on animals, all of 
 which get this paralysis. You can experiment on a 
 dead animal. If you take an ordinary nerve muscle 
 preparation and if a small quantity of the active sub- 
 stance obtained from the wood is applied to it the 
 nerve becomes paralysed. 
 
 5697. Are you of opinion that the substance in the 
 wood would be likely to have deleterious effects on 
 workmen engaged in the work? — Had I not known of 
 the cases of poisoning I should have been somewhat 
 doubtful, because I found that administering the saw- 
 dust to animals had no effect on them at all, but in 
 view of the fact that these cases of poisoning exactly 
 correspond to the action which I have described, there 
 can be no doubt at all, I think, that the poisoning is 
 due to the wood. It is such a very remarkable type of 
 poisoning. 
 
 5598. Have you come across similar substances caus- 
 ing similar symptoms in other woods ? — No, not in 
 other woods, but the well-known arrow-poison curare 
 has an exactly similar effect almost in detail ; in fact, 
 this substance might be curare as far as its action 
 is concerned. 
 
 It is not known exactly what it is? — ^No, 
 because when the actual substance is obtained it is 
 active, but as it is prepared more and more pure it 
 loses its activity, so that it looks as if there were some 
 other substance present which we have not yet grasped. 
 
 5700. (Professor Allbutt.) Is it your opinion that 
 th© effects produced on the workers are consistent 
 with poisoning by this wood ? — Absolutely consistent. 
 I think the suggestion that Mr. Harvey Gibson made 
 that it had an action on the heart is completely wrong. 
 The experiments made are quite correct, but the con- 
 clusions he derives from them are not valid. 
 
 5701. Is it your impression that the poison or the 
 'lust from the wood if swallowed is destroyed by the 
 Pastric juice in the stomach ? — Yes ; that is why you 
 «an take the sawdust in the mouth and it does not 
 affect one ; it is only when the dust is absorbed by the 
 lungs that it is dangerous. 
 
 5702. Need it necessarily go as far as the lungs ? 
 The larger bronchial tubes might be sufficient? — 
 Possibly. 
 
 5703. Would it be sufficient if it collected about the 
 mouth and larynx and nose, and these parts, to be 
 dangerous ?— Certainly. My point was that it could 
 
 419 
 
 not be absorbed through the skin ; that is most im- Professor 
 probable. ^- £. Dixon, 
 
 5704. Then if any kind of adequate protection was ^^^ 
 given to the mouth and nose, say, by some form of 9. t„_ iqnv 
 respirator, which did not interfere with the man work- 
 
 ing, the effects might be prevented ? — Yes. 
 
 5705. Putting their dusty fingers into their mouths 
 would not be dangerous ? — No. 
 
 5706. The danger is inhalation ?— Yes. 
 
 5707. It is a question of the prevention of inhalation 
 of the dust by the mouth and nose ? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 5708. Have you seen any men who have been suffer- 
 ing from this poisoning ?— No j I have only read the 
 accounts of it. 
 
 5709. Do you think it likely that the first effects of 
 the poison might be detected by the knee jerks?— 
 Yes. 
 
 5710. That is tosay, if men showed altered reflexes 
 they are beginning to suffer from the poison ? — Yes. 
 
 5711. (Dr. Legge.) Where did you get the wood from 
 with which you made your experiments? — From tha 
 Shuttle-makers' Association. 
 
 5712. From Mr. Isherwood ?— No ; he is the repre- 
 sentative of the workmen. In consequence of Mr. 
 Harvey Gibson's paper, the masters wanted an inde- 
 pendent investigation, and they approached me to- 
 carry it out, so that there is no doubt the wood was 
 derived from a genuine source. 
 
 5713. Have you read this paper of Professor Harvey 
 Gibson?— Yes. ^ 
 
 5714. Do you laiow his statement that he was 
 supplied with the shuttles, and also with the sawdust, 
 and that the shuttles were of West African boxwood, 
 but the sawdust from which he extracted the alkaloid 
 was South African boxwood ? — I had forgotten that. 
 
 5715. Do you know exactly what the wood or sawdust 
 sent to you was and where it came from ? — It was sent^ 
 to me as West African boxwood, and it was, as I under-'^ 
 stand, wood from which the men made the shuttles. 
 
 5716. The point is that these experiments of Pro- 
 fessor Harvey Gibson were made on the alkaloid he 
 discovered in the South African boxwood, but there is 
 another wood, the West African boxwood, which is. 
 closely allied to it, which he thought he was dealing 
 with but was not ; and if you were dealing with the 
 West African wood you were not dealing with the same - 
 wood, were you? — It was sent to me and labelled, 
 
 " Knysna boxwood." Then we thought it rather im- 
 portant to repeat Mr. Harvey Gibson's experiments, so , 
 we obtained an impure alkaloid in every way similar 
 to that of Mr. Harvey Gibson's, and repeated his 
 experiment which ho made on the heart. 
 
 5717. Did you get the same action on the heart that 
 he did ? — We repeated his experiment exactly. Mr. 
 Gibson is not a medical man, and did not understand 
 what he was getting, as he admits in his paper. 
 
 5718. I understand that the chemical part was done 
 by Dr. Titherly, and the experimental part under the 
 supervision of Professor Sherrington? — But those 
 actual experiments are confusing. 
 
 5719. Taking the diagrams he gives, did you not get 
 those results ? — Yes, exactly ; but you see the experi- 
 
 z 2 
 
180 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Professor ments were performed on isolated rabbits' hearts, and 
 
 \V. E. Dixon, as a matter of fact, the merest trace of potassium will 
 
 M.D. produce a similar effect ; but when the same alkaloid 
 
 producing those effects is given to intact hearts, it has 
 
 24 Jan. 1907. no effect on the heart at all. 
 
 5720. Have you any of this wood still in your pos- 
 session ? — I have solne of the sawdust. 
 
 5721. In the trade, I understand both South African 
 boxwood and West African boxwood is used indis- 
 criminately, and is known as African boxwood ? — Yes. 
 
 5722. It would be interesting to know which your 
 sawdust was definitely. Could you ascertain that? — 
 Yes, I think it could be ascertained. I could send you 
 a sample of the wood, and at the same time I could 
 send you some of the sawdust, but I am unable myself 
 to say which it is. I did not know there was that 
 difference. 
 
 5723. As far as you know amongst the workers there 
 .are no symptoms of paralysis, are there ? — No, because 
 if you depress your motor nerve endings, the only ones 
 which would be affected would be the respiratory ones, 
 and the first thing would be a gasping for breath ; and 
 that respiratory trouble I put down to the depression 
 of the motor nerve endings. Of course, it is not actual 
 paralysis, and long before you got paralysis the man 
 would be dead from asphyxia ; but if you kept him 
 
 alive by artificial respiration, and gave a sufficiency 
 of drug, you would get paralysis. 
 
 5724. Can you explain the running of the eyes and 
 the running of the nose which is so characteristic of 
 this irritation ? — The wood itself and the substance one 
 obtains from it are not irritant. You can drop the 
 alkaloid, and I have dropped it in my own eye in 
 large quantities ; and if you rub it in the skin, it is 
 not in the slightest degree irritant. It must act after 
 absorption, and I cannot explain it otherwise. It may 
 be due to the irritant particles of the wood which you 
 get with others woods probably as well. 
 
 5725. You have described how the breathing is 
 affected; With regard to the symptoms of nausea and 
 sickness, can you say anything? — I have divided the 
 action of the wood into three — one, the effect on the 
 nerve cells. Every drug which affects the brain pra- 
 duoes those symptoms. 
 
 5736. Do you think if one had looked for it one 
 would have found some increase in the reflex? — ^Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 5727. Has your attention been called to any symp- 
 toms suggesting an effect on the muscular system ?— 
 No. There is a tendency first of all. to; depression of 
 the motor nerve endings, and, seoondlyy tc increase the 
 reflexes ; in a sense, they antagonise one. another, but 
 in the end you get the weakness or faintnessi 
 
 Mr. H. Boyle, called, and examined. 
 
 J/r. n. 
 Bryle. 
 
 5728. {Chairman.) Are you president of the North- 
 umberland Miners' Mutual Association ? — That is bo. 
 
 5729. Are you giving evidence on behalf of the 
 Northumberland Miners' Association ? — Yes, the North- 
 umberland Miners' Federation, which includes the 
 Northern Miners' Association of between 24,000 and 
 25,000 members, the Deputies' Association of over 
 1,000 members, and the Mechanics. 
 
 5730. Dealing .first with what is known as beat hand. 
 Is that frequent amongst your members? — I have the 
 exact figures here for 1905. 
 
 5731. What do those figures show? — They show 55 
 cases of beat hands for that year. 
 
 5732. How long were the men incapacitated? — An 
 average of the 55 eases comes out at 2r89 days. 
 
 5733. What was the least period the men were in- 
 capacitated? — The least was s«ven days. 
 
 5734. Do you think there were cases of men suffering 
 from beat hand who were away from their work lees 
 than seven days who are not included in your returns ? 
 — I should think not. 
 
 5735. Would an injury which would be classed as 
 beat hand in your opinion incapacitate a man for a 
 Tyeek? — ^At least a week. 
 
 5736. Have you yourself had experience of this com- 
 plaint? — ^Yes, I had a beat hand, and I was off for 
 seven weeks. 
 
 5737. To what do you attribute it ? — The friction of 
 the pick on the hand. I had gone from an easy place 
 of work tO' a hard place of work, and the action of the 
 pick caused it. 
 
 5738. It has been stated in evidence that men are 
 particularly liable to beat hand if their hands become 
 soft through not working for a time. Is that so? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5759. A suggestion has been made that if men are 
 away from work for a considerable period, perhaps 
 through a trade dispute, when they came back to work 
 many thousands of men might suffer from beat hand. 
 Do you think that is probable ? — It is probable ; but 
 I should hardly think it possible. I have been in 
 some very long strikes myself, one lasted nine weeks, 
 another one lasted seven weeks, and at the termination 
 of a 17 weeks' strike, when the men recommenced 
 work, to the best of my remembrance, there was one 
 case of a beat hand in a colliery with about 600 hewers. 
 I should say that beat hands are likely to follow after 
 a prolonged strike. 
 
 5740. How long do you think it takes for the com- 
 plaint to declare itself? — In my case as soon as I felt 
 the pain in my hand I could no longer work. If I had 
 been in an easier placi^, I ir.ight have kc-pt a'; work a 
 day or two longer. 
 
 5741. How long had you been working in the hard 
 
 coal before feeling any pains? — It was less than a 
 week. I could not saj' the exact time. 
 
 5742. Is beat hand a complaint which, in your 
 opinion, arises within quite a brief period of time, and 
 is not due to working in a place for several months 
 or years? — I do not think it would necessarily follow 
 when there had been an idle time for a few days, and 
 the hands had got softened. 
 
 5743. (Professor Allhuit.) May I look at your hand? 
 Is there anything to be seen now ; has the beat hand 
 disappeared ? — Yes. 
 
 5744. {Chairman.) How long ago was it you had it? 
 — About 35 years ago. 
 
 5745. {Professor Allhutt.) It does not leave a con- 
 traction of the hand? — It did not with me. I have 
 seen contractions, but not caused by beat hand. 
 
 5746. Do you think beat hand does not generally 
 leave contraction ? — I have never seen any. 
 
 5747. So that when it is cured it is cured ? — It was 
 so with me. 
 
 5748. To the best of your knowledge the hand usually 
 
 recovers completely ? — Yes. 
 
 5749. Do I understand that a miner who is con- 
 tinually at work, and whose, hands are inured, is not 
 very likely to suffer from the disease ? — Not very likely. 
 
 5750. But when a miner returns to work after ^ 
 interval of rest 'he is no douibt aware that if he is not 
 careful he will get beat hand, is he not ? — That is so. 
 
 5751. How does beat hand begin? What are the 
 sensations ? — ^Heat and pain. The hand gets hot and 
 uains one. 
 
 5752. And however anxious a man might be to con- 
 tinue his work, if he is forewarned would not he be 
 T7ise to give up work at once ? — ^If he gave up work at 
 once, and had it looked after, I think the injury could 
 be readily cured, or the time he was incapacitated 
 would be very much shortened. 
 
 5753. May I suggest to you that if he left off work in 
 good time it might not, and probably would not, go on 
 to what you would specifically call beat hand?— Yes, 
 that may be so. I think that accounts for the sho^- 
 ness of time I have given — a week. I think in thpfe 
 cases the men have taken it in time. 
 
 5754. The Committee have had evidence that wjien 
 the malady is truly beat hand, it means a gathering or 
 suppuration in the inner part of the hand. Is that in 
 accordance with your experience ? — Yes. 
 
 5755. Not a mere tender palm, but when it goes on 
 to suppuration? — Yes. 
 
 5756. Short of that, when it is merely superficial 
 inflammation you would not give it quite so grave a 
 name as beat hand, would you ? It might lead to it, 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 181 
 
 but it is not yet beat hand, is it ?— That is possible. I 
 think if taken in time it could be stopped. 
 
 5757. If, then, it was in some way made easy for 
 a man to give up work, or if his hands were tender, to 
 begin work carefully, would it prevent at any rate a 
 good many of the cas^ ?— Yes, I think so. The doctor 
 can speak better as to that than I can, but that is my 
 opinion. 
 
 5758. When it goes on to real beat hand— that is, 
 the suppuration— is that disease specifically confined 
 to coal mining and not found in other industries ? — In 
 <;oal mining, I think, you only find it amongst the 
 hewers. I do not think in any other class of labour in 
 a mine you hear of such a thing. All cases I have 
 known have been amongst the coal hewers. 
 
 5759. When you say that beat hand would incapaci- 
 tate a man for at least a week, it would be a very mild 
 jase, would It not? If it goes to suppuration of the 
 deeper tissues it would be a matter of four or five 
 weeks, would it not?— I have particulars of a case 
 which lasted a driy sliort of seven weeks. 
 
 5760. And which nee-.led a surgical operation, I sup- 
 pose? — Yes. ^ 
 
 5761. (Chairman.) I think beat knee is not a malady 
 frequent among yoiir members, is it ?— There are less 
 cases, of beat knee in 1905 than of beat hands I 
 could not get the figures for 1906. There were fifty- 
 two cases of beat knee, and I may say these figures deal 
 with a membership of 37,657 of the Northumberland 
 and Durham Miners' Permanent Relief Fund. Out of 
 that number there were fifty-five cases of beat hand 
 and fifty-two cases of beat knee. 
 
 5762. How long were the people affected incapaci- 
 tated? — On an average twenty-four days. 
 
 5763. What are the extreme figures?— The shortest 
 seven days ; the longest 176 days. 
 
 5764. Are all those cases cases in which the Perman- 
 ent Relief Fund- has paid benefit ? — Yes. 
 
 5765. You have a rule, have you not, that unless a 
 man is oflE work for five days, he is- not paid ? — lor eix 
 days. 
 
 5766. Therefore you would not have under youi 
 notice, would you, any cases of men who were in- 
 capacitated by either of these maladies for a period of 
 less, than six days ? — That is so. 
 
 , 5767. What are the symptoms of beat knee ? — I never 
 had one myself. The doctor will explain it more fully. 
 
 5768. -Do you think that beat knee comes on gradu- 
 ally over a series of weeks or a series of months or 
 years? — No, I think it comes on just as suddenly as 
 beat hand. 
 
 5769. Uave you taken two cases into court under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act, 1897, one of beat hand, 
 and the other of beat knee, and endeavoured to get 
 compensation ? — Yes. 
 
 '5770. What was the outcome, of those two cases? — 
 We lost them. There were several cases of beat hand 
 and beat knee reported to m© previous to those two 
 cases, but knowing that they were not provided for in 
 the Act, we informed the people so, and did not proceed 
 with them, but on receiving legal advice that we ought 
 to test the cases, and that it was possible they did 
 come under the Act, we took these two cases into 
 the county courts and lost them. Then we appealed 
 to the High Court, and lost again. We intended to 
 take them to the House of Lords, but we stopped short 
 of that. 
 
 5771. What was the ground on which the decision 
 was come to ? — That they were not accidents, but were 
 incidental to the work of the miner. 
 
 5772. With reference to miners' nystagmus, have you 
 had many cases of that? — Two. 
 
 5773. Ill one year ?— Net, altogether. I do not think 
 ■we pay relief in such cases. "There was a case some 
 time ago of a man who had an accident to the head 
 •t some colliery, and the employers sent their 
 doctor to examine him. The doctor reported that he 
 was not suffering from the accident, but that it was a 
 disease in the eye, which was in no way caused by the 
 accident, and must have existed previously to the 
 accident. We had the man examined by a medical 
 referee, who reported that he was suffering from 
 nystagmus, but that he might have worked for some 
 time longer before being incapacitated, had it not 
 been for the accident to the head which had accelerated 
 the disease. 
 
 Mr. H. 
 Boyle. 
 
 „^aI^' ■^P^'^t from that case, have you had other cases 
 under your notice of miners' nystagmus ?-Another one 
 
 nas come under my notice since. 
 
 5775. Are those the only two cases in your lone 24 Jan. 1907. 
 
 experience amongst Northumberland miners?— The 
 
 only two m my experience. Of course, I have heard 
 
 l^'^ ^T ""i *^ , ®'^, ^''°''^' ''^^ not 'i^ery much. I believe 
 tne J«lorthumberland miners are not much affected by 
 the disease. Whether it is on account of so few safety 
 lamps being used in Northumberland mines or not I 
 do not know. 
 
 ■5776. (Professor Allbutt.) In the two cases you 
 Jinow of, were the men disabled ?— Yes, in each 
 case. One is receiving compensation now, but the 
 other has^ no claim under the Act, though he is idle 
 and has been ordered not to go down the pit again, 
 and to work at something where he has not to stoop. 
 
 5777. In your district nystagmus is apparently a rare 
 
 affection ? — Yes. 
 
 5778. (Dr. Legge.) Is it generally acknowledged 
 among miners that nystagmus is more irequent 
 where safety lamps are used? — I have heard it 
 put by miners' leaders that where safety lamps are 
 used long, they are sure to cause an affection of the 
 eyes. 
 
 5779. Is there any reason why a miner working with 
 a^ safety lamp should have to strain his eyes more ? — 
 Yes, I should think so, because the light is not so 
 good from a safety lamp as it is from the naked light, 
 and to look for minute objects, or even objects that are 
 not minute, at a distance of a few yards, with a safety 
 lamp hanging up, means a tremendous strain on the 
 eyes. 
 
 5780. Apart from the two cases you have referred to, 
 have you seen any cases of nystagmus yourself amongst 
 miners? — I could not say. 
 
 578L If you met a miner with nystagmus, could you 
 tell whether he had got it or not by looking at him ? 
 — I could not. 
 
 5782. (Chairman.) Are you of opinion that miners 
 suffer specially from any lung diseases ? — I have known 
 a few cases, but I would not like to say that the work 
 in the mines has been the cause of it. I believe miners, 
 with us, at any rate, are probably as clear from lung 
 disease as any body of workmen in the country. I 
 have known men afflicted for a short period when they 
 have been working in a place where the ventilation was 
 bad — not exactly in the lungs, but in the whole system. 
 
 5783. Wotild that incapacitate them for any length 
 of time I — I had a case reported to me some two or 
 three years ago from one of our collieries. The man 
 had been off about six weeks, and the question was put, 
 as he was working in foul air, was he entitled to com- 
 pensation. I said if the foul air was caused by acci- 
 dent I thought he had a case, but if it was the regWar 
 condition of the place, he had no case. 
 
 5784. lu' that case did the man sufier through work- 
 ing for a considerable length of time in a bad atmo- 
 sphere?^ — Yes. 
 
 5785. Do you think in such cases as those there 
 should be compensation? — ^I do. 
 
 5786. Have you many such cases ? — We have not 
 many, and we could not have many, because they would 
 only occur in places where the ventilation had got bad. 
 Cases do occur, but they are special cases, and I have 
 known man suffer and have to be led out of a pit after 
 working part of a shift. 
 
 5787. Do they recover speedily? — ^Yes, they recover. 
 
 5788. Would not it be rery rare tihat a man would be 
 olbliged to remain away from his work for a waak owing 
 to working in a bad atmosphere? — ^It would be much 
 rarer than in the case of beat hand or beat knee. 
 
 5789. Have you had any other cases under your 
 notice of men being incapacitated from other causes ? 
 — No ; there was another case, but the time he was off 
 I have not got. Those are the only two cases known to 
 me since the Act of 1897 came into operation. 
 
 5790. Are there any other injuries to which you wish 
 to draw the attention of the Committee which men em- 
 ployed in mining are liable to? — ^Yes ; there is one 
 other, the sprained wiist, which I suppoEO would be 
 considered an accident. 
 
 5791. Then it is already covered by the Act? — ^It is 
 already covered by the Act. Coming back to beat hand 
 and ibeat knee, although I could not give you any 
 figures, there is something which is similar to the 
 
182 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 J. r. B. ^^s.t hand and teat knee. The miner in the low)er 
 Boyle. seams in holing the coal sits on a bracket, and they 
 
 get a beat buttock, but there are very few oases of the 
 
 24 Jan. 1907. kind. They must sit to this work. 
 
 5792. Is not that just as much an injury arising from 
 the employment as beat hand or beat knee 1 — Just the 
 saane. 
 
 5793. Does it also incapacitate men for over a week ? 
 — I could not get any figures, but I learned that 
 although they could not give me a case in Northumber- 
 land for the year 1905 there had been cases. 
 
 5794. Cases that had been paid for by the Permanent 
 Relief Fund ?— Yes. 
 
 5795. {Professor Allbutt.) I suppose in- any occupa- 
 tion stress thrown upon the buttock or elbow or 
 any other part of the body might in certain persons, 
 like as ia oarsmen, produce soreness or boils, but it is 
 not more common among miners than other work- 
 people, is it? — I have never known a case myself else- 
 where. 
 
 5796. We have not been told about this buttock 
 trouble before ? — ^It is the first time I have heard of it 
 myself. 
 
 5797. But for an event so occasional it is scarcely 
 worth while, is it, from your point of view even, to 
 bring the elaborate machinery of legislation to bear? 
 — Probably one might think it unnecessary, but suppos- 
 ing you had a man with a beat buttock who was laid 
 up for a few weeks, or for some length of time, as 
 people are with beat knee, what about the man himself ? 
 
 5798. But would you go so far as to say that beat 
 buttock was a prevalent thing among miners? — It ia 
 not ; I have never known a case myself. 
 
 5799. Coal dust is not irritating to the lungs, is it ?— . 
 No, I do not know that it is irritating, but I think any 
 one who has worked in the mines gets it on the lungs. 
 
 5800. The Committee have understood from evidence! 
 by the miners themselves that miners are rather 
 specially free from pulmonary diseases. Do you think 
 that is so ? — I should think they are just as free any- 
 how as anybody else. 
 
 5801. The ordinary conditions of their work are' 
 favourable, are they not ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 5802. (Dr. Legqe.) Have you had instances of illnes* 
 caused by the firing of explosions ? — I have heard of two 
 or three cases ; in fact, we have had to deal with that, 
 not through the Compensation Act, but we have hadl 
 complaints from some of our men about the use of some- 
 of the higher explosives. They complain that the fumes 
 from the higher explosives, get into their systems ani 
 lay them up. 
 
 5803. Do you remember what the symptoms they com- 
 plained of were ? — Dizziness, I think, was one. 
 
 5804. Do you remember what the higher explpsivss 
 were by name? — I have heard gelanite, saxonite, and 
 bobbinits complained about. I have not heard so much 
 complaint about gobbinite as to the fumes, but I have 
 heard it complained about with regard to other things. 
 
 Mr. James Andeeson, m.b., cm., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. 5605. {Chairman.) Are you in practice at Seaton 
 
 Anderson, Delaval ? — Yes. 
 
 M. B., C M. 5806. Do you appear here on behalf of the Northum- 
 berland Miners' Federation? — Yes. 
 
 5807. With reference to the injury of beat hand, have 
 you had many cases of that under your observation ?— 
 Yes, I have. 
 
 5808. What are the symptoms ? — Pain in the centre of 
 the hand, tenderness, heat and swelling — ^practically 
 the classical signs of suppuration, sometimes so bad 
 that you get the back of the hand very swollen, caused 
 by the pus following the line of least resistance. 
 
 5809. If it is subjected to treatment at any early 
 stage can it easily be cured ? — I have seen some cases 
 go hack, and. I have seen some which, in spite of treat- 
 ment, have gone forward. 
 
 5810. May beat hand incapacitate a man for a con- 
 siderable number of weeks? — Yes, it may and often 
 does. 
 
 5811. Is there any medical expression for this malady 
 other than beat hand t — I have never heard one ; it it 
 
 really an abscess. 
 
 5812. Do you think if " beat hand " were scheduled 
 in the Act it would be generally understood in the 
 medical profession? — ^Yes, I think bo; it would cer- 
 tainly be understood by any men who are likely to have 
 any experience of it at all. 
 
 5813. {Professor Allbutt.) Do you think there are a 
 large number of cases of superficial chafing of the hand, 
 some of which 'go on tO' beat hand, or do' you think all 
 such cases end in beat hand ? — We call them beat hand 
 from the very beginning. 
 
 5814. But are you under the impression that a con- 
 siderable number of them stop slhort of it. Do the 
 majority come to suppuration? — The majority come 
 to suppuration in my experieiuce. 
 
 5815. Do you think as a technical term suppurative 
 cellulitis would be a good name for the oompla.int? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5816. Suppuration is of the essence of the disease, 
 
 is it? — Yes. 
 
 5817. Which makes it clear, does it not, that it 
 does not mean a mere bruise? — No, it does not mean 
 that at all. 
 
 5818. As a rule it does not leave any contraction, 
 does it 1 — No. 
 
 5819. (Chairman.) Have you ever had experience of 
 a case in which a man has been incapacitated for more 
 than a week by this injury, where the hand has not 
 
 suppurated 7 — No, I think not ; if it is going to sup- 
 purate, it does so before a week. 
 
 5820. Have you ever come across a case in which 
 there is no suppuration at all 1 — Yes. 
 
 5821. But it is nevertheless beat hand ? — It is never- 
 theless beat hand. 
 
 5822. And it may cause incapacity for more than a 
 week ? — Yes. The majority of cases suppurate before 
 the week is out. 
 
 5823. If the injury should be included in the third 
 schedule of the Act, and the cases were limited to 
 those in which suppuration occurred, would it, in your 
 opinion, cover all the cases in which compensation 
 ought to be paid ? — I think not, because a man is just 
 as incapacitated from working, whether suppuration 
 occurs or not. In my experience, and I think ia the 
 experience of all medical men in Northumberland, it 
 only occurs among hewers — only among men using the 
 pick ; and a man with a very tender palm is absolutely 
 incapacitated. 
 
 5824. (Br. Legqe.) Even in cases which do not go on 
 to suppuration, it would be desirable for a man to 
 abstain from work for a fortnight at least, I suppose ?— 
 Certainly. 
 
 5825. If a man returned to work at the end of a 
 week I suppose there would be risk of restarting the 
 inflammation ? — Certainly. 
 
 5826. Have you known cases where men have gone 
 back to work believing themselves better, and have 
 suffered from it severely afterwards ?— Not in my own 
 experience, but it is possible. My own custom is not 
 to let a man go back to work until I am satisfied the 
 trouble will not recur. 
 
 5827. Can you say generally the length of time in 
 the less severe cases that the trouble lasts —I should 
 think from a week to a fortnight for the small cases. 
 The anrerage length, in my experience, for a beat hand' 
 is a month to five weeks — ^that is before a man is fit to 
 hew again, because if it goes on to suppuration the 
 epidermis peels, and if he goes back before the wound 
 IS fairly healed he would have the disease again. 
 
 5828. Is the injury a superficial one underneath thfr 
 skin ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5829. (Professor Allbutt.) It is, I suppose, a septic- 
 poisoning; it must be caused by the introduction of 
 some poison ? — Yes. 
 
 5830. Do you know if there is any abrasion preceding: 
 it ? — There is bound to be an abrasion of some sort. 
 
 5831. One which you might not see, I suppose ?—N0;. 
 any scratch might do it. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 183 
 
 5832. "Would superficial inflammation of the palm 
 of the hand cause it ?— You can hardly put it in that 
 way, because you get the pus sometimes at the back 
 «f the hand in consequence of the tissues at the back 
 of the hand being loose. The pus follows the line of 
 1-east resistance, but it,starts from the palm. 
 
 5833. (Chairman.) Can you frive the Committee any 
 idea of the length of what one might term the period 
 of incubation of this malady ? — No, I cannot tell. Ona 
 has no knowledge, you see, of when the abrasion 
 occurs ; if one had that knowledge one could tell. 
 
 5834. I suppose cases would never occur of a man 
 safiering from beat hand when in the employ of one 
 employer, the injury having occurred really some 
 weeks previously while he was in the employment of 
 another ? — I do not think so. 
 
 5835. With regard to beat knee, can you tell the 
 Committee anything in addition to what has been said 
 by Mr. Boyle ? — I think Mr. Boyle put it very fairly. 
 It is a similar condition to beat hand. It is not a 
 housemaid's knee ; it is not in the bursa at all ; it is 
 in the ligaments lower down than the bursa. It is 
 an abrasion, of course, caused by kneeling. Our 
 Northumberland pitmen kneel on their bare knees, 
 and kneeling on the small coal they are bound to get 
 abrasions ,and they get suppuration set up in the same 
 way as in the hand. Our men wear knickerbockers, 
 
 5836. Could it be avoided by wearing trousers ? — I 
 do not think so ; some of the deputies wear knee-caps, 
 which prevents it to an extent. 
 
 5837. If all the men wore knee-caps, are the chances 
 that there would be no beat knee ? — Yes. This, again, 
 is a disease which only occurs amongst the coal-hewers, 
 I suppose because they are more on their knees than 
 other classes of men in the pit. 
 
 5838. Have you ever heard of any case of beat 
 buttock? — No, not until Mr. Boyle told me about it 
 •coming up to town. I suppose it is caused by in- 
 flammation of the bursa of the buttock. 
 
 5839. (Professor Allhutt.) Beat knee is not bui-sitis? 
 —No. 
 
 "5840. It is the same as beat hand ; it is the introduc- 
 tion of a poison through an abrasion of the skin? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5841. Is it equally severe ? — It is worse ; it takes a 
 longer time to cure — certainly six or seven weeks on 
 the average. 
 
 5842. Is it your opinion that knee-pads would pre- 
 vent the disease a ereat deal — for instance, such pads 
 as a slater wears ? — Yes. 
 
 (Mr. Boyle.) But the coal-hewer is on his knees when 
 he starts getting the coal out, and whatever he wore 
 would be in his way when he began to hew the coal 
 again, while the slater, you see, is always on his knees. 
 
 (Professor Allhutt.) Do you mean it would interfere 
 with his movements ? 
 
 (Mr. Boyle.) Yes. 
 
 (Professor Allhutt.) But one sees slaters walking 
 about with these things on. 
 
 (Mr. Boyle.) Yes; but a slater is not paid by 
 '. Besults ; he can do what he likes. A coal-hewer is paid 
 ■by results. 
 
 (Witness.) There is this difference between slaters and 
 miners, that a slater is kneeling on a perfectly smooth 
 : surface, and a miner is kneeling on small pieces of 
 ' «oal. A slater has no risk of abrasion to his knee by 
 kneeling as a miner has, who is kneeling on little bita 
 or coal with sharp edges. The kneeling is the initial 
 cause. 
 
 5843. (Professor Allhutt.) Of course, barking the skin 
 ' of any part of the body is apt to cause poisoning, and it 
 ! is not peculiar to miners, except as it occurs on the 
 
 knee and hand, is it? — Quitei so. 
 ; 5844. (Chairman.) Have you had under your notice 
 
 ' any cases of miner's nystagmus ? — I have only seen two 
 <:ases in 16 years, and my predecessor, who has been 
 i 40 years in Northumberland, has only seen two cases 
 in his experience ; it is very rare among Northumber- 
 land miners. 
 
 5845. Do you think when it occurs it is due to their 
 employment? — I think so. 
 
 5846. How is it caused ? — I agree with Mr. Boyle 
 that where it does occur it is caused by the insuffi- 
 ciency of light. You get a better light from a naked 
 lamp than from a safety lamp. The safety lamp is 
 
 very little used in Northumberland according to my Mr. J. 
 experience. Anderson, 
 
 5847. Do you agree with Mr. Boyle with reference to ^■^■' ^■''^■ 
 the immunity of miners from disease of the lungs ?- 
 Yes. 
 
 24 Jan, 1907. 
 
 5848. Have you come across any cases of illness 
 caused by foul air? — Not very frequently, but occa- 
 sionally they do occur. 
 
 5849. Are the men incapacitated for more than a 
 week ? — I think I have known of a case where the man 
 has been off for a fortnight. 
 
 5850. What would be the symptoms ? — Intense head- 
 ache, dizziness, and vomiting very often. 
 
 5851. Would it be due to an accident, or would ir 
 be a malady contracted by working in bad air for a 
 considerable period ? — I think it is caused by a sudden 
 want of fresh air. The air gets slack in a place, 
 and a man is suddenly overcome and has to leave 
 his work straight ofl. 
 
 5852. So that it is really as much an accident as if 
 the man were affected by an explosion ? — Yes. 
 
 (Mr. Boyle.) The cases reported to me were all dif- 
 ferent from the doctor's experience. Had they 
 occurred as the doctor says I agree it would be acci- 
 dent, and the men would be entitled to compensation 
 under the present Act. If anything occurred to cut 
 the air off, I agree that under the present Act it might 
 be held to be an accident. 
 
 5853. (Chairman.) (To the Witness.) Have you had 
 any such cases in your personal experience? — No, my 
 experience has been the other way, and I have signed 
 certificates for compensation, and the men were 
 actually compensated. 
 
 5854. (Professor Allhutt.) Were the two oases of 
 nystagmus' you have seen very severe cases? — ^Yes. 
 
 5855. The Committee have been told that in a 
 moderate degree the disease is not very important. 
 Do you agree with that? — Yes. It is a lateral move- 
 ment of the eyeball, but it incapacitates a man if it 
 is considerable. 
 
 5856. If it is considerable, is it usually associated 
 with other eye defects ? — I should think so, but I am 
 not an expert oculist. 
 
 5857. (Dr. Legge.) With regard to the symptoms 
 from bad air which suggest rather carbon-monoxide 
 poisoning, do you think that is a likely thing to occur ? 
 ■ — I think not. You only get carbon-monoxide poison- 
 ing after an explosion. It is carbon dioxide poison- 
 ing actually. 
 
 5858. Can you tell the amount of carbon dioxide 
 in the air under such circumstances ? — No, I have not 
 the slightest idea. 
 
 5859. It would require an immense quantity of CO^ 
 in the air, would it not ? — I cannot tell you at all. It 
 is want of oxygen. 
 
 5860. That is the excessive presence of nitrogen? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5861. Have you seen cases of housemaid's knee in 
 miners ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5862. So that there are two kinds of beat knee? — 
 A housemaid's knee is not a " beat knee." 
 
 5863. It is a point to be remembered, is it not, in 
 considering what should be included in the schedule, 
 that bursitis may occur ? — ^You have bursitis, and you 
 have the condition of the beat knee, which is not 
 bursitis. Bursitis you get in connection with the 
 Bursa in front of the knee-cap, but you get beat knee 
 further down. 
 
 5864. With regard to nystagmus in miners, have you 
 ever noticed the oscillation of the eye?— If a miner has 
 nystagmus you can notice it immediately, but the 
 disease is very rare with us. My predecessor only saw 
 two cases of nystagmus in 40 years, as I have said. 
 
 5865. Do you know the description given by Mr. 
 Snell that it is due to the straining of the elevator 
 muscles, and would you like to express an opinion 
 upon that? — No, not being an expert oculist. 
 
 5866. (Professor Allhutt.) I suppose the strain is 
 much more more severe with a bad light? — ^Yes, it is 
 bound to be. There is another condition that occurs 
 among coal hewers rather frequently, that is an in- 
 flamation of the sheath of the tendons, which comes 
 on from the continuous jerking and jarring by the 
 pick in the hewing of hard coal, which incapacitates 
 
184 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 Anderson, 
 
 M.B.,C.M. 
 
 24 Jan. 1907. 
 
 a man from working sometimes ten days or a fort- 
 niglit. 
 
 5867. What do you call that? — Teno-synovitis. 
 
 5868. Do you consider that more or less specific to 
 the work of the miner ? — Yes ; I have never seen it 
 except among coal hewers. 
 
 5869. You do not find it among masons ? — No, nor 
 amongst the stonemen or deputies in the pits. 
 
 5870. Is it sufiiciently common to be characteristic 
 of mining ? — I think so. 
 
 5871. Have you seen a good many cases ? — Yes. 
 
 5872. How long do you consider it incapacitates a 
 man? — Ten days or a fortnight on the average. It 
 requires absolute rest. 
 
 5873. Can men who have suffered from it go back 
 to work without danger of its return? — Yes. It is 
 shown by a creaking of the muscles when they are 
 moved. 
 
 5874. Do I understand that the diagnosis of the dis- 
 ease is quite easy, and that there can be no malinger- 
 ing with regard to it ? — Quite so — that is not possible. 
 
 Mr. S. CouLTHAED Called, and examined. 
 
 Mr, S, 
 OoulOiard. 5875. {Chairman.) In general terms may I ask yott 
 whether you agree with the evidence of Dr. Andeisom 
 
 and Mr. Boyle ? — Quite so. After my experience of 
 several years I can confirm the evidence of Mr. Boyle. 
 
 5876. And you have nothing to add to it? — .No. 
 
 NINETEENTH DAY. 
 
 Friday, 25th January 1907. 
 
 MEMBEES PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Professor Cliefoed Allbutt, f.e.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. T. E. Bettant (Acting Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Hugh E. Jones, l.e.c.p., m.e.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. U. E. 
 Jones, 
 
 L.R.C.P., 
 M.E.C.S. 
 
 5877. (Chairman.) I understand that you are an eye 
 specialist ? — Yes. that is so. 
 
 5878. And that yuu are Ophthalmic Surgeon to St. 
 Helena Hospital ? — That is so. 
 
 25 Jan. 1907. 5879. Have you had. under your car© a considerable 
 number of glass workers? — Yes. 
 
 5880. Among them liave you had. several who' have 
 been suffering from cataract ?• — I have had seven glass 
 workers sufiering from cataract under me. 
 
 5881. In what period? — ^In twoi yea.rs; from the 
 beginning of February, 1905, up to the end of last year, 
 1906. 
 
 5882. Do you think that glass workers, or any par- 
 ticular class of glatss workers, are specially liable to 
 cataract ? — Comparing the cases I have seen at St. 
 Helens with the cases from Wigan and from Liverpool, 
 the percentage of the total number of cases is rather 
 higher than it is in the O'ther two places. Taking men 
 only, the percentage of cataract to the total number of 
 eye cases seen in the hospital is' 1-5 per cent, in St. 
 Helens 1-12 per cent, in Wigan, and 0-43 per cent, in 
 Liverpool. That is not taking women into considera- 
 tion. 
 
 5883. Do you notice any difference in the incidence 
 of cataract among glass, worfcere compared with the 
 i-est of the population with regard to the age at which 
 it appears?— I think not. I have worked out the 
 averages here again, if I may state them. There was 
 one glass bottle finisher in St. Helens whose age when 
 the first eye was operated on was 49, and the second 
 eye at 53. There were six other glass workers operated 
 on during the two years whose average age was 59. If 
 you would like the ages I can give them. The bottle 
 finisher was 49 years of age ; then a glass blower was 
 57 ; four sheet-glass flatteners were 48, 69, 47, and 67, 
 and one plat© maker was 66. Then there were three 
 men who were not glass workers— -a blacksmith, 73 ; a 
 chemical labourer, 55 ; and another blacksmith, 57. 
 At Wigan the average of the women was 62 years of 
 age, and the average of the men was 56 years.. In 
 Liverpool the average for the women was 62 years, and 
 
 for the men 36 years. Those are all consecutive cases. 
 So that with regard to age I do not think there is very 
 much difference. 
 
 5884. Have you had your attention drawn to the 
 result of the investtigations of Dr. Robinson, of Sundier- 
 land, into this matter ? — I have read his paper. 
 
 5885. Do I gather you do not agree with his view 
 that there is a special form of cataract to which workers' 
 engaged in bottle finishing are peculiarly liable ? — ^I am 
 hardly say that, because I have only seen one case, and 
 in that case one lens had already been removed and the- 
 other one "'^is mature, so that it would not show any 
 chai-acteristic peculiarity as to bottle finishing. 
 
 5886. How many years have you been consulting 
 ophthalmic surgeon to St. Helens Hospital ? — Only for' 
 tie last two years. The department was only opened 
 in February, 1905. Before that most of the cases were 
 sent tO' the Liverpool Eye and Ear Infirmary, with 
 which I am connected. 
 
 5887. How many years have you had experience 
 there P — I went there first of all as House Surgeon in 
 1886, and I have been on the staflf in one capacity or 
 another ever since, and -that is 20 yeani. 
 
 5888. Has your experience led you to form any con- 
 clusion as to whetiier cataract is a trade disease among 
 bottle finishers ? — No ; I have never paid any attention 
 'to the question until I was asked to give evidence, so 
 that I cannot say I have come to any concloision what- 
 ever. I have simply collected the figures at St. Helen* 
 during two years, and compared them with my ex- 
 perience in other places. 
 
 5889. Have you noticed any peculiarity in the symp- 
 toms of bottle finishers who have suffered from cataract 
 in the cases under your notice at Liverpool? — No, 1 
 have not — nothing has attracted my attention at all in 
 that way. 
 
 5890. (Professor Allhutt.) You say • jom attention 
 wais not dra-wn to this matter until you were asked to 
 give evidence. That might be a certain advantage, 
 might it not, bscause you would look into your figures 
 with an open mind? — ^Yes. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 185 
 
 6891. And in doing so you -have not found in those 
 figures any important indication of cataract as a trade 
 dieeafie, I gather?— The only thing I would point out 
 in that respect is that ^the percentage ie slightly higher 
 at St. Helens, and that there have been six glass 
 workers affected wjjo are not battle makers. There 
 was only one bottle maker— a "finisher." I am told 
 that in St. Helens and the district there are 240 bottle 
 finishers employed. 
 
 5692. Tb that the kind of work which is alleged to 
 produce cataract ? — Yes. All these men, I may say, 
 are Buhscri;bers to the St. Helens Hospital, and during 
 the last two years any man suffering from cataract in 
 the district would be admitted to the hospital. 
 
 5893. The statistics you have given apply to^ bottle 
 makers generally, do not they, or have you spoken 
 
 .Bpeoially of bottle finishers? — Those 240 are bottle 
 finishers only, but there was only one bottle finisher 
 who came to the hospital with cataract. 
 
 5894. Wbich seems tO' be certainly not more than the 
 normal incidence of cataract on the general public ? — I 
 tlhink not. 
 
 5895. The bottle finisher does not suffer then any 
 more than bottle makers in general ? — I do not think 
 so. I should say, from my figures, the flatteners suffer 
 rather more than th© finishers. Those are the men 
 engaged in sheet-glass making. 
 
 St. Helens Hospital. 
 Two Years' Statistics. 
 
 Workers. 
 
 Operation for 
 Cataract. 
 
 •tFinisliers 
 *Flatteners- 
 *Eoll Plate- 
 *Gatherersand Blowers 
 
 240 
 513 
 116 
 
 1,516 
 
 1 
 4 
 1 
 1 
 
 -No. 
 
 5896. Does the flattening expose them to intense 
 
 heat ?— I think the glass is very hot at the time it is 
 flattened. It is formed first of all in cylinders, then 
 split and opened out, and it must be very hot in order 
 to admit of the 'process being carried on. 
 
 5897. Have you been in tne works yourself.' 
 have not, 
 
 5898. Therefore you are not in a position to say 
 whether exposure to intense light, or heat, is greater 
 with flatteners than with bottle finishers, for instance? 
 — ^I cannot say. 
 
 5899. (Dr. Legpe.) Do you remember what form of 
 cataract it was in th© case of the one bottle finisher 
 you saw P — His cataract was matured when I firet saw 
 him. 
 
 5900. It was not of th© type described by Dr. Robin- 
 son ? — No, I should say it was more of th© ordinary 
 nuclear type. It was so advanced that on© could not 
 say definitely whether this particular posterior cortical 
 opacity which is described as characteristic was tiere 
 or not. 
 
 6901. Supposing on© were to find that the form of 
 cataract was posterior cortical in the case of bottle 
 finishers, do you think that would .iustify one in saying 
 it was due to th© employment ? — I do not think that 
 alone would be sufficient ground. 
 
 5902. What is the proportion of posterior cortical 
 cataract to nuclear ? — ^It is generally regarded as evi- 
 d©nce of disease in the vitreous body, and not primarily 
 a change in the lens. Posterior cortical does occur fre- 
 quently where there has been some change in the 
 vitreous. 
 
 5903. Mr. Robinson said it was the point where the 
 rays cross, did he not? — Yes, that is so, but I should 
 have thought that that explanation would apply 
 equally to all men who are exposed to intense heat. 
 
 5904. Have you had experience of injury to sight 
 from other industrial occupations P — No, not specially. 
 As I say, until I was asked' to give evidence on this 
 point I had not specially directed my attention to th© 
 matter, and it has not been sufficiently noticeable to 
 make one think of it, nor do th© figures show any 
 special ©arliness of incidence. 
 
 Mr. II. E. 
 
 Jones, 
 L.R.C.P., 
 M.E.C.S. 
 
 25 Jan. 1907. 
 
 Mr. Watson Smith, called and exaonined. 
 
 5905. {Chairman.) I understand that you wish to 
 give evidence on behalf of the Society of Chemical 
 Industry 1 — Yes. 
 
 5906. Are you yourself engaged in chemical manu- 
 facture 7 — ■! was at one time ; for ten years I was 
 
 'engaged in various branches of chemical manufacture 
 before beoo^ming a lecturer on the subject at Owens 
 College in Manchester, and subsequently at University 
 College, London. 
 
 5907. Are you able to give the Committee any in- 
 formation, ©specially on the question of carbon-bisul- 
 phide poisoning? — Yes ; that is a subject which 
 appears to me to be most important at the present 
 time. I am not sure whether anything has been done 
 with regard to it quite lately, but I have the evidence 
 of a former friend of mine in Manchester, the late Dr. 
 Ross, who did very valuable work in that direction. 
 
 5908. Have you had experience of cases of carbon- 
 bisulphide poisoning?^ — Yes, in the factory I was 
 engaged in at West Gorton, Manchester, where I was 
 chemist and manager, I had a foreman under me who 
 had formerly been a manufacturer of carbon bisulphide 
 on his own account, but who suffered so much from 
 carbon-bisulphide intoxication that both memory and 
 power of judgment had greatly suffered. He assured 
 me he had never recovered these functions, although 
 he was in better circumstances with me, working in 
 the open air. He formerly worked under cover, and 
 there he suffered very much. As I have mentioned, 
 he lost his memory so frequently that the loss became 
 chronic, and he told me he never expected to recover it 
 as it was originally. It went so far that his loss of 
 judgment made him do foolish things. He set his 
 apparatus on fire and ruined his business, and then 
 had to go out into the world to seek work. 
 
 5909. Were there other cases in his works of persons 
 suflering ill-effects from this poisoning? — ^Yes ; there 
 
 was a person he told me of who knew a number of 
 cases of men who had become so ill from frequent 
 intoxication by the vapours that they became unfit 
 for work, their memory and judgment were impaired 
 and they became reduced more or less to imbecility. 
 
 5910. Do you. think there is no doubt that was due 
 to th© use of carbon-bisulphide? — ^Yes ; I have not 
 the least doubt of it ; Dr. Ross's experiments are most 
 valuable, and they testify to that. He diagnosed tha 
 cases of some men who were disabled in some of the 
 Manchester water-proofing and india-rubber establish- 
 ments, and he has gone into detail in a thoroughly 
 scientific manner. 
 
 5911. Can you give a reference to his publications?' 
 ■ — I should be very glad to do so. I can hand you a 
 copy of th© " Medical Chronicle" of January and Feb- 
 ruary, 1887, in which Dr. Ross's articles appeared. 
 
 5912. The poiisoning arises gradually, I presume? 
 — ^Yes. I do not know whether I should occupy your 
 time too much by reading Dr. Ross's statement. One 
 of the varied symptoms is called double ankle drop ; a. 
 man becomes lame, the injury beginning at the toe. 
 That is only one of the many 'peculiar symptoms of the 
 affection. The principal thing is that the affected 
 persons gradually become imbeciles through frequent 
 bisulphide intoxication, and some of them, as Dr. Ross 
 shows, have been confined in lunatic asylums as 
 lunatics, and some were not permitted to come out. 
 The condition then, of course, they leave their families 
 in, must be a very serious one. 
 
 5913. What should you say was the minimum time 
 witTiin which a worker must be employed in this 
 industry in order to develop marked symptoms of the 
 poisoning? — In one case which Dr. Ross mentions a 
 man, after working for a few weeks, began to suffer. 
 In the case of another individual, he worked for three 
 
 Mr. W.- 
 Smiih, 
 
 ■f The whole district of St. Helens. 
 ,* -These figures relate to one large firm only, but^happen to include all the cataracts in those classes of workers. 
 
 419 ' 2 A 
 
186 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE: 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 S7)tM. 
 
 25 Jan. 1907. 
 
 months before feeling the ill-effects from the gas, and 
 then the symptoms commenced. 
 
 5914. Have you experience of any recent cases ? — 
 No, no more recent than 1893 ; but I heard that things 
 were going on pretty much as before in 1897, from an 
 old student of mine at Owens C!ollege. I have quoted 
 his statement in the lecture I delivered in University 
 College. His name is Mr. H. L. Terry. 
 
 5915. Is that recent? — ^It was in 1893, showing that 
 from 1887 to 1893 there had not been very much done. 
 He says : — " There is in some quarters an impression 
 that whiskey prevents and staves off these ill-effects, 
 
 and Mr. Tferry believes that whiskey is allow'3d in 
 some establishments, though not by his firm. He 
 adds that there were certain small factories confining 
 themselves to the making of waterproofed garments, 
 and it was in the small ill-ventilated shops of such fac- 
 tories that mischief was especially done." 
 
 5916. Can you give the Committee any information 
 with regard to naphtha poisoning in indiarubber 
 works ? — I think naphtha does not poison toi the same 
 extent. At the place I was connected with they went 
 in for the manufacture of naphtha from coal tar. 
 Crude benzol contains bisulphide of carbon to the 
 extent sometimes of 6 per cent., and if a man were 
 exposed to the va-pours he would certainly become 
 injured, but almost all tar stills are worked in the open 
 air, and thus the men escape any ill-effects. In curing 
 rooms in india-rubber factories the rooms are covered 
 in, and sometimes women are employed as well as men. 
 Dr. Oliver shows clearly that abortions and miscar- 
 riages, and all kinds of ailments are caused in the case 
 of the employment of women in these places, besides 
 'Other injuries to both men and women in connection 
 with the generative organs and sexual functions. Dr. 
 
 'Ross goes into detail as to all this, and I have an 
 extract from a letter of Dr. Oliver, published in the 
 " Chemist and Druggist," on the point. He says that 
 bisulphide of carbon is worse than lead-poisoning even, 
 his words being : " Still more decided, even, is the 
 deleterioius influence of bisulphide of carbon on the 
 -organs of generation, for not only does intoxication by 
 +.his compound predispose to abortion, but it tends to 
 abolish the sexual desire, and indujce a state of im- 
 potence." 
 
 5917. (Professor AllhuU.) What date is that letter? 
 —1893. 
 
 5918. Your evidence is of the greatest gravity, and, 
 supported by so high an authority as Dr. Ross, 
 commands the hicjhest respect. It is very grave 
 evidence, is it not? — Very grave indeed, and for that 
 reason I did not care to speak of anything else. I 
 have lectured before the Sanitary Institute in connec- 
 tion with other branches of chemical manufacture, on 
 the sanitary question, but I felt this matter to be so 
 much more important than any of the other subjects 
 that I thought it best to confine myself to it. 
 
 5919. Do I understand your evidence under both 
 heads to be evidence as to bisulphide of carbon ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5920. That is the active poison? — ^Yes. I have a 
 friend in Manchester, who was formerly the Mayor of 
 Salford, Mr. I. Frankenburg, who is the only manufac- 
 •turer I have known who has taken so large and wise an 
 interest in the welfare of his workpeople, that as far 
 back as 1885 he took out patents for a method and 
 arrangement of plant for overcoming this difficulty. 
 
 5921. Are you speaking up to date now? — Yes. I 
 think his first patent was in 1885, and he has taken 
 -out two or three patents since. A party of our Society 
 
 . of Chemical Industry was taken round Mr. Franken- 
 burg's works in 1897, so that we could see the whole 
 operation, and although we went actually into the 
 curing room, the members were not inconvenienced at 
 all by the odours. 
 
 5922. You said that the severe cases probaibly came 
 from the small and ill-ventilated shops, did you noti 
 —Yes. 
 
 5923. Are you speaking from personal knowledge and 
 up to the present time ? — ^Yes, up to about 1897. 
 
 5924. Up to date ?— Yes, up to that date. 
 
 5925. Do yooi think the conditions of the manufac- 
 tories have been so alteired during the last 25 years 
 that the gravity of such reports as Dr. Ross's must 
 now be interpreted in the light of modern experi- 
 ence ? — I think things are going on not quite so badly 
 perhaps, but pretty much in. the same way. 
 
 5926. Have you any idea how many operatives are 
 
 engaged in this employment 7— A very large number- 
 male and female. 
 
 5927. Are there any degrees of individual immvmity 
 and susceptibility among the men, or do you think 
 they all suffer alike ?— According to Dr; Ross's 
 evidence, I should think some are more susceptible 
 than others. 
 
 5928. Do you know what percentage of the work- 
 people suffer in this way ? — I should say the whole of 
 them if they were exposed would eventually succumb. 
 
 5929. Even in fairly well ventilated shops?— The 
 great difficulty is bringing about perfect ventila/tion. 
 My own belief is, and Dr. Ross's statement is, that 
 nothing will be done thoroughly until these places are 
 put under strict supervision. 
 
 5930. How far do you think the alleged deterioration 
 of judgment incapacitates the workman from perform- 
 ing his ordinary duties as an artisan F — It absolutely 
 prevents them ; they become practically lunatics, and 
 one man, according to Ross, ran into a shop and hid 
 himself under a carpenter's bench amongst the 
 shavings. 
 
 5931. So that it would make him unfit for his occu- 
 pation, would it ? — Yes. 
 
 5932. Is it found as a matter of fact that the work, 
 people have to be continually removed and others taken 
 on in their places ? — Yes. 
 
 5933. Ts the average age at which men leave the 
 employment very early ? — I have no data as to the age. 
 
 5934. You cannot say how long on an average a work- 
 man finds himself able to continue at this occupation? 
 . — There are various branches of it, in some of whicl 
 they are not exposed ; but where they are exposed I do 
 not think it would be possible for any human being to 
 inhale these vapours and undergo this intoxication 
 long. It is an intoxication so much like the alcoholic 
 that it is almost impossible to discriminate, and I 
 have heard of men accused of being intoxicated when 
 they have had no drink at all. 
 
 5935. Are the foremen of the shops exposed to the 
 fumes ? — I expect they look after themselves more than 
 the actual workmen can. The late Dr. C. Otto Weber 
 had a mode of discriminating between alcoholic intoxi- 
 cation and that by bisulphide of carbon by administer- 
 ing soda-water and milk, the restorative effect being 
 great in the latter case, but nil in the former. 
 
 5936. Might I suggest this difference, that whereas 
 those who have been exposed to bisulphide of carbon 
 become more or less permanently injured, those suffer- 
 ing from alcohol probably recover? — Yes, the intoxi- 
 cating action wears off, but a further insidious effect is 
 set up and progresses in the case of repeated bisulphide 
 intoxication. 
 
 5937. How long an average daily exposure do you 
 think would be required to cause injury. The work- 
 men are subject to it the whole working day, I sup- 
 pose ? — Yes. 
 
 5938. Would foremen and persons going in and out 
 of the shops, or even the proprietors and managers 
 themselves be in any danger ? — No, I do not think they 
 would ; going into the open air would restore the 
 normal functions. 
 
 5939. Repeated short exposure would not have the 
 same ill-effect, you think? — No, I do not think it 
 would, provided the exposure were to fumes sufficiently 
 diluted with air. 
 
 5940. Is it one of your points that the bisulphide of 
 carbon either so attaches itself chemically to the 
 nervous tissues or inflicts so serious an injury upon 
 them that no amount of subsequent fresh air, or change, 
 or rest, will get rid of the disease ?— If sufficiently great 
 exposure to the vapours take place, certain cases, Boss 
 shows, have become hopelessly chronic, others of less 
 exposure are less chronic. I have record of a case in 
 which a man had to be three or four months in hospital 
 and then afterwards went into some asylum. 
 
 5941. The industry is a very large one, is it not?- 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 5942. Where are the chief seats of the manufacture! 
 —I think the largest are about Manchester. Th«M 
 are a few m the East-End of London. In going round 
 Mr. Frankenburg's factory and with his arrangements, 
 no inconvenience was felt. 
 
 5943. Do you think the medical men in the district 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 187 
 
 would be able to produce to us workpeople injured by 
 this process ? — I have little doubt of it. 
 
 5944. Do you think they would be able to produce 10 
 or a dozen of them ? — Probably so. A great friend of 
 the late Dr. Ross was Dr. Julius Dreschfeld, of Man- 
 chester, who would be able to give you valuable infor- 
 mation. 
 
 5945. {Chairman.) Have you yourself had any first- 
 hand knowledge of any cases in recent years? — Only 
 the case of the man I mentioned who was a foreman, 
 and in 1870. 
 
 How long ago was that ? — 1867, 1868, and up 
 
 5946-7, 
 to 1870. 
 
 5948. {Dr. Legge.) Is the vapour of carbon bisulphide 
 a heavy vapour — heavier than air, do you know? — In 
 the factory mixed with air and air currents, warm and 
 cooler, it would not sink or stagnate, but intermix. 
 If it were able to acumulate and stagnate it would sink 
 just" as carbon dioxide does. 
 
 5949. But if carbon bisulphide was confined in a 
 chamber by itself and the fumes were taken away by a 
 fan, do you think that would protect the workers ? — • 
 Yes. Mr. Frankenburg had proposed to do that, and 
 then to scrub the vapours as they passed through a 
 condensing tower, finally recovering the bisulphide. 
 
 5950. If the workers were all examined by a doctor 
 every month with power to suspend those from work 
 who showed the slightest symptom, and, further, if 
 they were only allowed to work for two and a half 
 hours at a time even with the vapour confined and 
 removed in that way, do you think there would he much 
 risk of danger then to the workers? — No, I think it 
 would be most vahiaWe to hav© supervision of that 
 kind, all other things being equal, because at the first 
 appearance of symptoms they would be allowed an 
 opportunity of recovering before anything of a chronic 
 nature set in. 
 
 5951. Are you not aware that that has been required 
 under special rules since 1898? — I was not aware of 
 that. 
 
 5952. Would you be surprised then to know that we 
 had not heard of cases of serious poisoning arising in 
 these works since then from the doctors who examined 
 
 the workers ? — I should be much surprised, unless j/^_ j^^ 
 changes had been made in the modes of working. But Smith. 
 
 even then, and because of difficulties to be anticipated 
 
 for the doctors in securing all cases of suffering, 25 Jan. 1907. 
 
 through motives of fear, reticence, anticipated loss of 
 
 work, or reduction of usefulness and so of wages, or loss 
 of ditto, etc., etc., I would suggest the testing the 
 atmosphere of " curing " and other working-rooms from 
 time to time. Such inspection would be strongly 
 merited in the case of so insidious a vapour as that of 
 carbon bisulphide. In all probability the inspections 
 in such case would forestall and greatly reduce the 
 chances of symptoms, and thus necessity of medical 
 aid. 
 
 5953. Do you know whether the process by means of 
 carbon bisulphide is going out, a.nd other methods are 
 being adopted for vulcanising? — Mr. Terry mentions 
 that a substance was coming in in 1693 for that purpose 
 — namely, carbon tetrachloride ; but I never heard of its 
 being much used, because the indiarubber is not so 
 soluble in it as in the carbon bisulphide, and for other 
 reasons. 
 
 5954. Do you see any reason why other substances 
 should not be found which would produce equally well 
 the vulcanising effect? — No, and I should not be sur- 
 prised to know that among the numerous chemical dis- 
 coveries made from time to time some substance would 
 yet be discovered, but I do not think it has been so far. 
 
 5955. Have you had experience of chloride of sul- 
 phur ? — Yes, I have ; it is used mixed with bisulphide 
 in the vulcanising process. 
 
 5956. Has chloride of sulphur itself any injurious 
 property ? — No, except that it would be irritating to th« 
 lungs, the very irritation preventing insidious action. 
 
 5957. It does not produce the same symptoms as 
 carbon bisulphide ? — No. 
 
 5958. Do you know of other industries, besides the 
 curing of india-rubber, in which carbon bisulphide is 
 used ? — Yes, the extraction of oils from seeds ; in fact, 
 any cases in "which oils have to be extracted on a large 
 scale from seeds, or cotton waste or similar material. 
 
 5959. What would those works be called ? — I think, 
 oil-extracting works, or oil works. 
 
 Mr. Alexandeu James Knight, called and examined. 
 
 j., 5960. {Chairman.) Can you give the Committee 
 some evidence on the question of the efiects of their 
 employment on dining-car attendants on railways? — 
 Yes. 
 
 5961. Do you represent any organisation ? — I belong 
 to the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants. 
 
 5962. Are the dining car attendants, or some of 
 them, included in that organisation ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5963. What maladies do you think this class of 
 workers specially suffer from? — Consumption brought 
 on by dhills, and they suffer also from rheumatic fevsr. 
 
 5964. Owing to changes of temperature? — Yes. It 
 is our duty, when stopping at stations, to assist pas- 
 sengers out of the cans, and also to instruct passengers 
 on the platforms. 
 
 5965. I suppose there are no statistics available 
 showing to what extent dining-oar attendants suHer 
 from these diseases as compared with the rest of the 
 population ?— One or two hav© had very had illnesses. 
 
 5966. But you have no general statistics showing that 
 consumption is more prevalent among these men than 
 amongst the rest of the population, have you ?— No. 
 
 5967. Do I understand that you are of opinion that 
 dining-car attendants ought to receive compensation 
 if the diseases were due to their employment ? — Yes. 
 
 5968. Can you suggest to the Committee in what way 
 it can be determined whether a dining-car attendant 
 who suffers, say, from rheumatic fever, has contracted 
 that rheumatic fever from his employment or in some 
 other way ? There is no difference between the rheu- 
 matic fever from which they suffer and the rheumatic 
 fever from which other people sufier, is there ? — ^No. 
 
 5969. How would it be possible to say that it was 
 contracted from their employment ?— Only by their 
 being healthy when they come into tlhe service, and 
 catching a chill. Also' night travelling between two 
 
 419 
 
 days' work, where men are fatigued and sleep on floors 
 of cars and are subject to draughts. 
 
 5970. Similarly, with regard to consumption, do yoxi 
 think it would be possible to prove in any individual 
 case that the consumption was originally contracted 
 through the employment? — Of course, that disease runs 
 through a family generally, but sometimes you can 
 tell by the vibration of the trains, etc. , the nerves are 
 upset. Also heats and colds alternately combined with 
 dust. 
 
 5971. Are there any other diseases, do you think, 
 which this class of people suffer from in consequence 
 of their employment? — Yes ; bad veins through stand- 
 ing so long, and the constant vibration affects them. 
 
 5972. Do you think the vibration of the trains causes 
 that ?— Yes. 
 
 5973. Do they suffer more in that way than, say, 
 engine drivers or stokers ?-^Yes, I should think so, 
 beoaiuse they have to run up and down the cars in the 
 performance of their duties. 
 
 5974. Ouit of 20 dining-car attsndants would you 
 expect to find some, and, if so, how many, suffering 
 from bad legs? — I should say about one in 40. 
 
 5975. Should you say that is a, larger proportion 
 than .amtong waiters in hotels ? — Yes, I should think so. 
 
 5976. Do you think that dining-car attendants suffer 
 from nerve disorders of any kind ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5977. Have you had any special cases of that come 
 to your own knowledge ? — Yes ; there is a late inspector 
 of dining-cars whO' has retired in consequence. 
 
 5978. What did he suffer from? Was it any form 
 of nervous breakdown ? — Yes ; chronic catarrh or some 
 such disease. 
 
 5979. Do you think it was due to his employment ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 2 A 2 
 
 Mr. A. J. 
 Kniijht. 
 
188 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. J. 
 
 Knir/ht. 
 
 25 Jan. 1907 
 
 5980. Are you acquainted with a large number of 
 d.iun2;-car attend anits? — Yes, on the Great Western 
 Kailway. 
 
 5981. Bo you know a great proportion of the men 
 s> engag'sd on the Great Western Railway? — Yes. 
 
 5982. How many men have you known who have 
 suffered from nervous breakdown owing to their em- 
 ployment, and who have had to give up work for a 
 long or short time ? — Three or four. 
 
 5983. Oan you afterwards furnish the Committee 
 vfith the names of the men for their private informa- 
 tion ? — I am afraid I could not. I have come on behalf 
 of Mr. iMoore, you see. 
 
 5984. Could Mr. Moore furnish us with any such 
 Btatistics, do you think? — Yes. 
 
 5985. {Professor AlXbutt.) What numter of men do 
 you represent ? — I only represent Mr. Maere. I attend 
 on his behalf, as he could not comis. 
 
 5986. About what ages do men enter and leave the 
 employment in dining-cars? — From 15 upwards. 
 
 5987. Then they come in young, do they ? — Yes. 
 
 5988. In inferior positions, I su-ppose? — Yes. 
 
 5989. Is it an employxont which atitracts men to 
 stay for many years, or do they go to other things ? — • 
 They stop several years. Of course, they change from 
 one line to another. 
 
 5990. I suppose they can qui'.e easily take up wait- 
 ing at hotels again, and are able to move about, that is, 
 from one employment to another ? — Yes. 
 
 5991. Do you think that, as a rule, they stay in 
 dining-cars for only a few years, or do you think 
 they stick to the dining-cars ? — They sti-ok to it fairly 
 well. 
 
 5992. That does not suggest that tbsy find it inter- 
 fere very much with their health, does it, seeing that 
 it is not difficult for a dining-car attendant to change 
 that particular mode of employment. He could easily 
 go to an hotel, could he not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 5993. You do not allage, do you, that there is any 
 particular difference in the experience of a dining-car 
 attendant to that of a stoker or guard or engine driver 
 with regard to vibration ? — There is a little more vibra- 
 tion. 
 
 5994. Have you ever ridden on the footplate of a 
 locomotive ? — Yes. This occupation differs from guards 
 
 ;and drivers, inasmuch as the men are not only required 
 
 to be in and work the train, but are on a continual 
 move all the time. 
 
 5995. Would you say there was more vibration in 
 a diidng-room car than there is on a footplate ? — I do 
 not think there is so very much difference. 
 
 5996. What do you mean by a bad leg ? — Veins. 
 
 5997. Do you mean variooso veins ? — Yes, caused by 
 so much standing. 
 
 5998. I diaie. say you know that that is very largely 
 a hereditary thing, do you not, and goes from father 
 to son? — Yes. 
 
 5999. And a tendency to that would no doubt be 
 favoured by any occupation keeping men on their feet! 
 —Yes. 
 
 6000. Do you 6Ugg3st that there is anything in the 
 movement of a car, otherwise than having to stand up 
 and walk about, ito produce a bad leg ? — No. 
 
 6001. There is nothing beyond the upright position, 
 is there ? — Nothing, and being on the springs. 
 
 6002. Should not you sav that in a dining-car there 
 is much more oscillation than vibration? lit is more 
 Lke being in a ship at sea, is it not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6003. It is not exactly the vibration then, but that 
 you are thrown about from side to side. A waFter's 
 duty on a car would not differ, would it, from that of 
 a waiter on board ship ; in fact, it would not be so bad? 
 — Perhaps not ; but there is the sudden stopping of the 
 train, and all that kind of thing, which might thro\f 
 one about, and one might bruise a leg or an arm. 
 
 6004. The dining-car attendant is occupied, of 
 course, in walking and standing about a good deal 
 during the time of serving meals, but during a con- 
 eiderable part of the day lie is sitting down, is he not? 
 — Yes, when he has finished. 
 
 6005. Would you say that he is standing and movinp; 
 about for half his time or more? — For three-parts of 
 his time I should think. 
 
 6006. With regard' to the rheumatic fever and con- 
 sumption cases, you are not prepared to say, are you; 
 that they aro more frequent among your class than 
 among other classes of people? There is nothing in 
 the conditions of working on a train which would make 
 a man more liable to consumption than if he was 
 engaged in any other occupation, is there ? — Of course, 
 there is ths constant tramping up and down in the 
 cars, which oaoises a certain amount of dust. 
 
 Mr. P. J. O'KEEFrE, l.e.c.p., l.k.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. P. J. 
 O'Keeffe, 
 L.R.C P., 
 1L.R.C.S. 
 
 6007. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man, in prac- 
 tice at St. Helens? — ^Yes. 
 
 6008. Are you medical of&cer to any of the trade 
 unions ? — No. I am medical officer to some societies — 
 the Chemical Society and Miners' Society. 
 
 6009. Have you had a great deal of experience of 
 ailments from which glass-workers suffer 1 — Yes, 
 bottle-blowers chiefly. 
 
 6010. Do you think there is any illness which they 
 -contract owing to their employment ? — Bottle blowers, 
 ;yes. Emphysema of the lungs they suffer a good deal 
 
 from. 
 
 6011. Do you think they suffer more from that than 
 ■other glass workers do ? — I think they do. 
 
 6012. Have you any statistics which you can put in 
 with regard to it ? — No. 
 
 6013. Are the symptoms which they present different 
 in any way from the symptoms of emphysema amongst 
 other persons ? — No. 
 
 6014. So that taking any individual case it would 
 be very difficult to say whether the illness arose from 
 the employment or not, would it? — It would be diffi- 
 cult to say. 
 
 6015. Do you think it would be possible to say? — 
 My experience is' that a great number more glass 
 blowers suffer from it than men in other employments 
 and if I found emphysema in a young man who was 
 a bottle-blower without any cause for bringing it on 
 otherwise, I should be inclined to think it was due to 
 the nature of his employment. 
 
 6016. But would a court of law be entitled to hold 
 
 that it was? — My opinion would be that it would- 
 be due to his employment, that is provided other 
 causes were absent, and there was no reason to suspect 
 that it was brought on by any other cause. 
 
 6017. Is this disease, in your opinion, due to work- 
 ing at this employment for a considerable period,- or 
 might it arise aiter a man has been at work as, a 
 bottle-blower for a very short time? — It would gradu- 
 ally arise ; it does not come on suddenly, it progresses, 
 and I should say that after a riian had been in the 
 employment of bottle-blowing for perhaps a year or 
 two, or perhaps less, the disease would begin. 
 
 6018. There is- a preliminaxy period in which a man 
 becomes more iaiid more susceptible to the disease, is 
 there? — The lung gradually becomes weakened by the' 
 nature of the employment, but evidence of the disease 
 would not manifest itself perhaps before a year or two. 
 
 6019. Why does this special employment irijure the 
 lung? — ^Because the exit of the air froin the lungs is 
 interfered with. The man wants to blow ; he draws a 
 deep breath, and fixes his chest. Then he has to blow 
 through a tube into a bottle, and there is an obstruc- 
 tion to that effort, and the lungs have to be held' in 
 the effort to blow ; the result is that the air cells are 
 gradually enlarged and the spaces between them are 
 gradually made thinner and become atrophied, and 
 the air cells run into one another practically eventu- 
 ally. 
 
 6020. Are these cases frequently serious cases, or do 
 they speedily yield to treatment ? — They do not 
 speedily yield to treatment, but a man can go on work- 
 ing with this disease for a great number of years..,, 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 189 
 
 6021. Suppose, the disease were scheduled as being 
 i subject of compensation under the Workmen's Com- 
 lensation Act, how would it be known in what employ- 
 aent the disease was contracted, when perhaps it 
 night have been contracted many years previously, 
 jid the man had gon^from one employment to an- 
 ither? — It would be impossible. 
 
 6022. It is a disease of very gradual growth, and 
 night continue, might it not, for a long time before 
 neapacitating a man from working 1-, — That is so. 
 
 6023. In fact, it may continue for many years before 
 I man is incapacitated, I suppose ?— Yes. 
 
 6024. Can you give the Committee any informatioii 
 with regaxd to cataract among bottle finishers ? — I 
 liave-not much experience of that, for the reason that 
 in St. Helen's, for each bottle works there is a doctor 
 appointed., who has charge of the eases coming from 
 thpee works. They seldom get into the hands of other 
 practitioners outside the club doctors. My experience 
 of cataract is this : I have not met cataract much in 
 people of under 45 or 50 years of age. As a rule, it is 
 from that age that they get cataract, but if I had a 
 case of hard cataract in a man under 45 years of age 
 who was a bottle finisher or who was even a gatherer or 
 a founder, I should say that the disease in that man 
 was due to the nature of iis employment. Authori- 
 ties differ about the matter. Dr. Robinson, who is 
 supposed to be an authority, asserts that it is very 
 prevalent among bottle finishers. The cases he cites 
 are nearly all old cases ; he only cites one case at 
 About 40 years of age, all the others are 60. Dr. 
 Snell holds a different opinion, and he is also a dis- 
 tinguished authority, so that it is really difficult to 
 say whether cataract in a man of 50 years is due to 
 natural causes or to the nature of his employment. 
 At 40 years of age as regards hard cataract in a man 
 «mployed in a glass works, I should say it was due to 
 his employment. 
 
 6025. Have you- observed any peculiar symptoms in 
 any cases which have come under your notice ? — No. 
 I have not seen it under 55. 
 
 6026. But even amongst the older men have you? 
 —No. 
 
 6027. Can you give the Committee any evidence with 
 regard to miners' fibrosis of the lung ? — Yes, that is a 
 disease of which I have had considerable experience, 
 and I have been treating cases for 12 years, though at 
 present I have only one case in my hands. I have 
 iound, and my diagnosis has been confirmed by a 
 post-mortem examination, that it progresses very 
 slowly and frequently attacks the apex of one lung 
 •only. It can be easily diagnosed by a medical man. 
 The lung shrinks, the chest wall falls in, and the man 
 has a bad cough — a very hard and troublesome cough 
 •with purulent expectoration. Then other troubles 
 come on with regard to the lung, and in some four or 
 five or sixyeaxs you get an enlargement or dilatation 
 •of the right ventricle of the heart. The kidneys 
 frequently • suffer as the result of this heart trouble, 
 anc( the blood vessels get diseased, and frequently in 
 post-inortems where it is discovered that a man has 
 died of apoplexy you have all those conditions trace- 
 able, in my opinion, tO' fibroid phthisis, which is 
 pretty prevalent amongst colliers. I have seen it in 
 colliers much. 
 
 6028. Have you any experience of ganister miners, or 
 liaye you medically attended them ? — No. 
 
 6029. So that you are speaking now, are y;ou, of 
 coal miners? — Yes. 
 
 6030. Do you think that coal dust is an irritant to 
 the lung ?— It is undoubtedly, in my opinion. 
 
 6031. And tends to set up fibrosis ?— Yes. 
 
 6032. Suppose you saw a man suffering from these 
 symptoms you have described, without knowing the 
 history of the case, would you be able to say with any 
 degree of certainty that that man was a miner and 
 was suffering from miners' phthisis? Suppose you 
 saw a man in hospital, without knowing what his em- 
 ployment had been, could you tell merely from the 
 symptoms he showed that those symptoms were neces- 
 sarily due to his employment in a mine?— No, I could 
 not. I should at once ask if he was a collier. 
 
 6033. And if you found he was a collier you would 
 be of opinion, would you, that the probabilities were 
 that his disease was due to his employment ? — Yes. 
 
 Mr. P.J. 
 O'Keeffe, 
 
 L.K.C.P., 
 L.E.US. 
 
 6034 (Professor Allhutt.) Are you referring to col- 
 liers in your own district? — Yes. 
 
 6035. Are the miners engaged in excavating rock 
 as well as coal in your district ? — No, I do not think so. 
 
 6036. In most collieries they have to excavate a 25 Jan. 1907. 
 
 certain amount of rock in addition to the coal, you 
 
 know ? — They have what they call night men to remove 
 
 all the useless stuff in my district. 
 
 6037. Still the men would be colliers, would they 
 not?^No, they are not colliers' ; they do not get coal ; 
 they are not men who work the coal. 
 
 6038. But they are miners, I suppose? — They are 
 simply employed to remove the waste material from 
 the mines. 
 
 6039. There is a very great amount of evidence to 
 suggest, if not to prove, that coal dust is not injurious, 
 but that coal miners who have to excavate in roci 
 and inhale silicious dust in addition to coal dust, may 
 suffer. Do you take any objection to that possible 
 explanation ? — No. 
 
 6040. You think it may be so, do you ?^^ Yes. 
 
 6041. Do you find fibrosis cases are frequent ? — They 
 are pretty frequent among colliers. 
 
 6042. Have you any other dusty employment in your 
 district beside coal mining? — There would be some ■ 
 dust at the glassworks, and in the chlorate of potash 
 works there would be some dust. 
 
 6043. You have no grinders or persons who would bo 
 exposed to iron dust, have you? — No. Of course, we 
 have iron foundries, but that is a different thing. 
 
 6044. You have seen post-mortem examinations, have 
 you, in these cases ? — Yes, I have seen a great number 
 of post-mortems, and a good many cases of miners' 
 phthisis. 
 
 6045. Generally, you have seen a large number of 
 post-mortems, have you ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6046. So that you have been able, of course, to verify , 
 your clinical observations ?—- Yes. 
 
 6047. Do you find that the cases are often uni-lateral ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 6048. More often than not?— Yes. I notice more 
 cases of one lung affected than both. 
 
 6049. Have you had experience in examining for 
 other ailments the chests of a good many persons sub- 
 ject to the conditions which cause fibrosis, so as to 
 ascertain the incipient stage of the disease? — Yes, for 
 insurance. 
 
 6050-1. Can you tell us then what you conceive to be 
 the initial physical signs, as early as you can carry 
 your mind fairly confidently back towards the com- 
 mencement of a case ? — ^A cough, a dry morning cough 
 especially, is about the eaijliest symptom, and you have 
 no sweating and no constitutional disturbance. 
 
 6052. Can you say whether the temperatures are high 
 or not ? — They are not ; they have no constitutional 
 disturbance. Then sometimes there is purulent expec- 
 toration, and on examination of the sputum you do not 
 find tubercle bacilli. 
 
 6053. We have been told that dyspnoea is an early 
 symptom, is that your experience?^ — ^No, it is not an 
 early symptom. 
 
 6054. When there is a good deal of lung injured the 
 men get short of breath, do they not? — ^Yes, but until 
 then they work and continue at work. The last case I 
 had was a man of about 60, who worked up to within 
 a few weeks of his death. 
 
 6055. What would you consider to be the early stages 
 of the physical sighs ? — I have not had many cases — ^I 
 think, Only about one that I could really call early, 
 and the disease Was even then pretty far advanced. I 
 really cannot say that I have had any experience of the 
 very early stages. The men do not come to me early, 
 because they have no constitutional disturbance, and 
 they continue to work. 
 
 6056. The nutrition keeps fairly good ? — Yes. Of 
 course, when the lung begins to shrink, and the 
 chest wall falls in a little bit, you have the infected 
 portion of the lung, and also the good portion, becom- 
 ing more or less emphysematous. 
 
 6057-8. Do you examine many of these men for insur- 
 ance ? — ^Yes, a great number. 
 
 6059. Can you tell the Committee what you find 
 among most of them? — YOu get heart trouble very 
 frequently. 
 
190 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. P. J. 6060. I mean so far as is caused by the dust? — You 
 
 Keeffe, have nothing in the young people, and the old people 
 L.R.C.P., are not very often insured because of their age. 
 
 '_J-_1." 6061. Taking a man who has been engaged in the 
 
 25 Jan. 1907. work for ten years, what would you expect to find the 
 
 — — condition of his lungs ? — They might be all right, but 
 
 in the majority of cases you would have bronchitis and 
 
 wnphysema. 
 
 6062. Do you agree that the physical signs are very 
 much less than v/ould be expected from the amount 
 of cough ? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 6063. So that if you found a person whose nutrition 
 was fairly good, but who had a chronic cough of the 
 kind you have described, and who might also be rather 
 short of breath, and in whose chest there were physical 
 signs, too, but of an indefinite and general kind, do 
 you think that that would enable you to diagnose the 
 case as one of fibrosis ? — Yes, it would. 
 
 6064. As opposed to ordinary tuberculous consump- 
 tion ? — Yes. 
 
 6065. What part do you think tuberculosis plays in 
 these cases — an important part or an unimportant 
 part ? — I do not think it plays a very important part ; 
 in most of the cases which have come under my obser- 
 vation the disease has ceased to proceed very far. The 
 lung becomes adherent to the chest wall. It does not 
 appear to spread ; it gets to a certain stage and then 
 stops, and other troubles come on. 
 
 6066. Do you think that, sooner or later, a very large 
 •number of these cases are affected to some extent with 
 
 tubercle, although tubercle plays a subordinate part 
 in them ? — I mean they seldom die as they do in 
 tuberculous cases. 
 
 6067. But probably tubercle bacilli would be found 
 in the expectoration ? — Yes, but it is the exception. 
 
 6068. Although tubercle bacilli might be found in the 
 expectoration, that would not prevent you diagnosing 
 the case, would it, as one of dust phthisis ? — ^It would 
 not. You have r.ot the sweating and temperature 
 and constitutional disturbance, nor much wasting. 
 Another trouble which I forgot is dyspnoea at night 
 time. 
 
 6069. The mere fact then that tubercle was found in 
 the sputum would not prevent your considering the 
 case one of dust phthisis ? — It would not. 
 
 6070. Now, between the chronic fibrosis on the one 
 hand and ordinary tuberculous phthisis on the other, 
 is there an intermediate group of cases the interpre- 
 tation of which might be very difficult, I mean, in 
 respect of causation by dust ? In the case of a person 
 perhaps somewhat susceptible to consumption going 
 into an employment of this kind, might dust determine 
 in him the occurrence of tuberculous consumption of 
 an ordinary kind, which under other circumstances you 
 would not have expected ? — Of course, that would be a 
 different thing altogether. I would not consider that 
 as a case which would come within the limits of a 
 compensation Act. 
 
 6071. Supposing it were alleged in a court of law, 
 
 and you were asked as to a certain man, " Do you con- 
 ceive the inhalation of dust has had anything to do with 
 the irritation of a case of ordinary tuberculous con- 
 sumption ? " what would your answer be ? — My answer 
 would be, if the tendency was there prior to his going 
 into the employment, the irritation caused by the dust 
 might start the trouble, but that he might get the same 
 trouble from any other employment or even if he got a 
 wetting. I should not consider his death would be due 
 to his employment. 
 
 6072. Do not you think that a large proportion of 
 the cases would be on the intermediate ground I am 
 speaking of ? — ^It would form a difficult and large group 
 to deal with. 
 
 6073. There might be little doubt about a young man 
 of 25 and 30, or, again, as to the fibrotic man of about 
 50, but if the man were aged 40 or 45, and presented 
 chronic tuberculous phthisis in both lungs, should you 
 be prepared to state to a court of law the degree in 
 which the dust was culpable in the individual case ? — 
 No. 
 
 6074. The-n probably in the majority of cases the 
 discrimination would be a difficult one, would it not ? — 
 Yes. I should take the temperature and the constitu- 
 tional disturbance and the sweatings. 
 
 6075. No, I am assuming it is tuberculous phthisis, 
 but I want to see how far the dust may be a con- 
 
 tributory cause ? — I would not be prepared to say in s 
 court of law that it was due to the dust to any larga 
 extent. 
 
 6076. Apart from your evidence, I should have beea 
 disposed to say that clear cases of fibrosis are rather 
 scarce ; what do you say 1 — I have seen a good number,, 
 and I have seen a good number of post-mortems in. 
 which fibrosis has occurred in colliers only. 
 
 6077. You think, do you, that in your district there- 
 is a suibstantial number of cases which are clearly - 
 cases of dust phthisis? — Yes, I do. 
 
 6078. So that there would be a substantial matter for 
 compensation even if we left out all tuberculous cases?' 
 — Yes, I do think that. 
 
 6079. Two members of .the Committee examined some- 
 30 men engaged in tool-grinding at Wolverhampton 
 and formed an im'pression that a very large number of 
 them had imperfect respiration, and some had slight 
 added sounds. They were men with large muscular 
 chests. Should you be disposed to think that if one- 
 could see their lungs, they were probably more or less. 
 fibrotic ? — It would depend on their ages. 
 
 6080. Have you seen that state of the chest in a. 
 great number of men who work in the dust in your 
 district ? — Yes. 
 
 6081. You would not be surprised to find chests ot 
 that kind among them ? — No. 
 
 6082. It is in accordance with your experience? 
 
 Yes. I have no experience as to grinders. 
 
 6083. Do they suffer from haemoptysis? — Very 
 seldom. Peirhaps occasionally you might get one to say 
 hei has spat blood at some time, but you would not, 
 say definitely that it was haemoptysis. I have never 
 seen it, and some of the oases are extremely chronic. 
 
 6084. Extending over ten or fifteen years?— Yes, or 
 more. 
 
 6085. How far is it incapacitating? At what age- 
 would it affect a man seriously ? — It would not affect a 
 man until the heart trouble was well established, and 
 that might be not for 10 or 15 years. 
 
 6086. Do the men regard their employment as one. 
 which shortens their lives ?i — ^No, they do not. 
 
 6087. Do they drink more than other workmen? — 
 No, they do not drink as much as chemical workers. 
 
 6088. They are not an intemperate class ?— No, they 
 are not. They simply take drink at the week end. 
 
 6089. Have you ever carried a post-mortem examina- 
 tion into microscopical detail ? — ^No. 
 
 6090. Could you say whether silicious dust is found 
 in the lungs ? — No. 
 
 6091. At any rate the men so employed probaHy.((-,' 
 would be incapacitated at an earlier age than person* 
 employed in an atmosphere free from dust ?— Yes. 
 
 6092. And though they might go on working to 55, 
 in some other employment, they might have gone on » 
 few years longer ?— Yes, that is my opinion. 
 
 6093. Would you expect any great difficulty as a 
 referee in these questions, in separating the cases- 
 which you conceive to be those of dust phthisis from 
 ordinary tuberculous phthisis ? — No. . .: 
 
 6094. {Dr. Legge.) With regard to the intermediata-',. ' 
 class of workear referred to who gets affected, would yon . 
 say that there was a definite length of time that it 
 took before the effect of the dust showed itself on th» 
 lungs ?l— No, I could not say that. I would not regard 
 those cases where there was constitutional disturbance- | 
 or expectoration with tubercle bacilli in large quan- 
 tities, or night sweats, or rapid wasting as cases which 
 should come under the Compensation Act, although the 
 disease might have sprung into existence from the coal 
 dust. 
 
 6095. Taking the case of a man aged 20 who has 
 worked for five years as a collier, and develops phthisis 
 lasting SIX months or a year, would you say that that 
 was a claim that could be maintained ?— No, it woulJ 
 not, in my opinion. 
 
 ■ ^^\ ^^^* becomes of the dust which these worker^ 
 inhale?— It becomes deposited in the lung. 
 
 6097. I suppose the amount of dust they really in- 
 hale through their mouth and nose in the course of a 
 ye^ would amount to a verjr considerable quantity ^- 
 Yes. Of course they expectorate a lot of it. 
 
 6098. What happens to the bulk of the dust?-They 
 S ''^"^'^'' ^™SS are frequently perfectly 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 191 
 
 6099. Is it a very minute quantity of dust which 
 eventually finds it way into the lungs 1 — ^Yes. 
 
 6100. Do you think such a small amount as that 
 would act as an irritant? — Continued for a consider- 
 able time, I do think it would. 
 
 6101. What length of time, if it is continuous in- 
 'halation, would you fix before it would become trouble- 
 ■some? — I should say 10 years before you would have 
 .any trouble set up with regard to fibioid phthisis. 1 
 have never seen evidence of it in colliers under 40 years 
 (Of age, so that I should say 10 years at least. 
 
 6102. Do you think any case up to 25 years of .age 
 .could be without question excluded from compensa- 
 tion ? — ^Yes, 1 do think so. 
 
 6103. In the late cases where you get purulent 
 expectoration, ajid you had bacilli in the sputum, 
 surely you find also night sweats and hsemoptysis? — 
 In fibroid phthisis the purulent expectoration is due in 
 any opinion to retention. When you find bacilli in the 
 sputum it is due to the development of tuberctilous 
 ■phthisis, and there of course you have night sweats 
 •and constitutional disturbance, etc. In fact, the men 
 seldom die of phthisis, but die of the heart trouble or 
 dropsy, renal dropsy. 
 
 6104. In the post-mortems you have made, have you 
 ever found signs of cavities or excavation of the lung? 
 . — ^No, not in cases of fibroid phthisis, except where 
 tuberculous phthisis also existed. 
 
 6105. And yet you say you find tubercle bacilli in 
 such persons ? — Yes. I have had the Medical Officer 
 of Health giving me his return of examination of 
 .•sputum, and certifying tubercle bacilli. 
 
 6106. Are you talking of more than one case ? — In 
 ■very few of the cases do you get the tubercle bacilli, 
 but I had one some time ago under my care, and he is 
 still under my care. He has tubercle bacilli and he 
 has cavities. 
 
 6107. Do you think if these people were to give up 
 ■the work when they found the symptoms so serious 
 as to consult you they would get better provided you 
 found no tubercle bacilli in their sputum? — I do not 
 think they would. 
 
 6108. Do you think the mischief has gone too far ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 I 6109. Supposing you saw them five years before, 
 ■while the mischief was only in the making, do you 
 think then that the lung would heal up completely ?— 
 1^0, I do not think so, but if placed under better con- 
 jditions, life might be prolonged. 
 
 6110. So that if at the age of 35 they gave up the 
 work there is no reason why they should not live 15 or 
 20 years more instead of only 5 or 10 ?— I see no reason 
 •why they should not. 
 
 6111. Have you known of men who have left the work 
 «t 35 and taken up other work? — No, they will not do 
 that. You will not get a collier to leave his employ- 
 ment. There are so few branches of employment for 
 them— only labourer's work which is badly paid, so 
 they will not go into that ; and even if they go into 
 
 ' chemical works they require to have some training for 
 3t. 
 
 6112. Do you think a periodical examination of these 
 : workers once every six months, with power to suspend 
 ' men who are beginning to show signs of the disease 
 
 from the work, would be useful ? — Yes, I should think 
 it would. 
 
 6113. Except that there is a difficulty about their 
 finding other work? — Yes, there is that to contend 
 with. 
 
 6114. With regard to bottle blowers, is there any 
 other sign besides emphysema that goes along with 
 it that would enable you to say whether a person pre- 
 sented before you with emphysema was a bottle blower 
 or not? — They would have chronic bronchitis with the 
 emphysema. 
 
 6115. Is there any special sign by looking at a man 
 which would enable you to tell he was a bottle blower ? 
 
 —No. 
 
 6116. I was thinking of the effect on the cheeks? — 
 The cases I have met are practically isolated cases, 
 because at the bottle works they have a doctor ap- 
 pointed specially for the works, and I do not see them. 
 
 6117. Is it a fact that bottle blowers get a distention 
 of their cheeks and that their cheeks become flabby ? — 
 I have not noticed that very much. 
 
 6118. And you have seen, I suppose, many bottle 
 blowers who have been at the work 10 or 15 years 1 — 
 Yss, hundreds of them. 
 
 6119. (Professor Allbutt.) In speaking of the inter- 
 mediate cases of phthisis, do you consider that tuber- 
 culous phthisis apart from fibrosis is unduly prevalent 
 amongst the class of people of whom you are speaking? 
 — I do not think it is. 
 
 6120. You believe it to be the ordinary incidence 
 of workers in general ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 6121. As regards emphysema, that would be the 
 same, I suppose, as the emphysema of persons who play 
 on wind instruments ? — Yes, it would be the same. 
 
 6122. What does it amount to in respect of capacity ; 
 after a certain number of years does a man cease to be 
 able to blow glass on account of his emphysema? — ^Not 
 until hr3 gets heart trouble, which takes a 'great number 
 of years as a rule to develop. 
 
 6123. Do they work as long as other people ? — They 
 do. 
 
 6124. You could not say that it shortens their 
 working life as glass blowers ? — The heart trouble 
 of course does. 
 
 6125. Do you consider that their years as glass 
 blowers are shortened by emphysema ? For when you 
 come to compensation, you see, it is a question of how 
 many years a man has fallen short of his anticipated 
 earnings ? — My opinion is that the bottle blower would 
 have lived longer if his employment had been different. 
 
 6126. Are they fairly temperate men? — Glass 
 workers and chemical workers are given to drink a 
 good deal. 
 
 6127. Is the emphysema attended with bronchitis ? — 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 6128. From an early period ? — No, they do not have 
 bronchitis at an early period. In the cases I have had 
 they have not had bronchitis long. 
 
 6129. Bronchitis comes on at a later stage, does it, 
 and at a later stage still comes the heart disturbance ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 6130. Is there any general arterial deterioration? — 
 No. 
 
 6131. It is not part of a general senile change ? — No. 
 
 Mr. P. J. 
 
 O'Ketfe, 
 
 L.R.C.P., 
 L.E.C.S. 
 
 25 Jan. 1907. 
 
 k.' 
 
 fei-'^ ■• 
 
192 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 TWENTIETH DAY. 
 
 Thursday, 1th Feh'uary 1907. 
 
 PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, m.p. (Ohairinan). 
 Professor CLirroED Allbtjtt, f.r.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Frank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. JuDSON S. BuBT, M.D., called in and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Bury, M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
 6132. (Chairman.) You are a medical man in pjiac- 
 tioe ? — Yes. 
 
 6132*. In what town? — ^In Manchester. I am phy- 
 sician to the Infirmary, and practise as a consulting 
 physician in Manchester. 
 
 6133. And you have had some experience of various 
 trade diseases ? — Yes. 
 
 6134. Have you had experience of poisoning by 
 carbon monoxide gas ? — -To a very limited extent. 
 Until last year I had not seen a case for 16 years. 
 The cases that I saw then were under the care of the 
 late Dr. Ross at the Manchesiter Infirmary. There 
 two cases came in of peripheral nuritis wliich 
 
 T>,r. Ross, from an analysis of ithe ihistory, thought 
 were very likely to be due to carbon monoxide. Those 
 cases are recorded in a treatise by Dr. Ross and 
 myself. 
 
 6135. And there was one recent case? — ^There waa 
 one recent ease of great interest which I had in the 
 Infirmary last year. 
 
 6136. In what trade was the man employed? — ^He 
 was a worker at limekilns. Would you like me to 
 read the history of the case shortly ? 
 
 6137. I think it would be very useful ? — He was a 
 man aged 25. His occupation is put down here as 
 "labourer." On June 7, 1905, patient had to clinker 
 a kiln which was at the base of a tall chimney, and 
 partially enclosed. It was a very hot afternoon, and 
 the construction of the kiln made it necessary for the 
 man to get his head inside the enclosure to see what 
 he was doing. He suddenly staggered and fell insen- 
 sible, and remained so for about an hour, when he was 
 taken home. When seen at 7 o'clock at night on the 
 same date he had a dazed look, but answered questions 
 intelligently, and there were no external marks of 
 injury. The next day he complained of headache and 
 vomited. On the following day he had what was 
 described as a fit. He lay with his eyes closed and 
 knitted brows, and took very little notice, and it was 
 difiicult to get him to answer questions. During the 
 next few days he presented the symptoms of lepto 
 meningitis, took no notice of questions, and evidently 
 had severe headache. His neck was rigid, and he 
 occasionally vomited. The temperature was always 
 above normal, ranging between 99 and 101. The 
 abdomen became boat-shaped ; the pulse was inter- 
 mittent, about 60 ; the pupils were unequal ; the coma 
 deepened ; he had occasional convulsive movements of 
 the right arm and leg ; and the urine was sometimes 
 passed involuntarily. That is the condition as 
 described by his doctor before we saw him. He re- 
 mained in that condition for 10 days, from June 9 to 
 19. Saline solution was injected into his right 
 median basilic vein and this was followed by a slight 
 improvement ; he began to take notice of his surround- 
 ings ; made the attendant understand when h© wanted 
 to urinate, although his motions were occasionally 
 passed involuntarily. There was now a right hemi- 
 plegia, and his speech was very indistinct. Slow but 
 steady improvement set in. Power gradually returned 
 to th^ right arm and leg, but his mental condition 
 remained unsatisfactory. He had occasional fits of 
 irritaibility, and anything like a mental effort of the 
 simplest kind confused him. Then he came under my 
 care at the Infirmary on January 10, 1906. 
 
 6138. That was six months later ? — Six months later. 
 He had a slight right hemiplegia ; he had albuminuria 
 and albuminuric retinitis. The striking thing about 
 him, however, was his mental condition. 
 
 6159. (Professor Allbutt.) He had no peripheral 
 neuritis ? — No. The whole question in this case is as. 
 to whether his mental condition was due to carbon. 
 monoxide or not. We made the most careful inquiries 
 and he was in perfect health and quite sensible and 
 intelligent up to the time of his putting his head into 
 the kiln ; and his mental condition afterwards never 
 seemed to get quite right. He was always in a very 
 etrang© condition in the Infirmary — childish — feeble- 
 minded perhaps would summarise it the best. Of 
 course, it is very easy to criticise the cause of this 
 mental condition ; T>ut those are the facts that we could 
 ascertain — that h© was quite well before, and that hi» 
 mental condition was impaired afterwards. 
 
 6140. What about the blood examinations ? — I do not 
 know that they were made. 
 
 6141. At a later date there was no specific alteration 
 of the blood ?— No. 
 
 6142. (Chairman.) There was mo other causp for hi» 
 condition except this poisoning by cai*bon monoxide f 
 — I could not find any. 
 
 6143. Was there any reason to suppose that there 
 was any other gas developed in this place where he 
 was working ? — No, I could not get any clue to any- 
 thing else. 
 
 6144. At any rate, this particular oas© would fall 
 rather under the category of accident than of disease, 
 because the seizure was sudden and at a giv«n moment? 
 — Quite so, and it followed immediately after the ex- 
 posure to the carbon monoxide. 
 
 6145. Therefor© irom the standpoint of this Com- 
 mittee it would be hardly necessairy to come fo any 
 decision upon it, 'because it would already be covered 
 by -the Workmen's Cottnpensaition Act as an accident? 
 — 'I see ; yes. Of course there have been other case* 
 recorded — ^chronic cases of impaired mental condition 
 following exposure to carbon monoxide. 
 
 6146. (Professor Allhuti.) ThaA is where it comes 
 in ? — Yes, and that is why perhaps one attaches more 
 value to this case. 
 
 6147. (Chairman.) You say following exposure to 
 carbon monoxide ; would that be momentary or con- 
 tinuious exposure ? — I could not speak to that just 
 now ; I should assume prolonged exposure — several ex- 
 posures—but I do not know. Of course, such cases 
 are very rare, and very few people have Had any ex- 
 perience of them. 
 
 6148. (Dr. Legge.) In those two cases you refer to 
 that you saw wibli Dr. Ross — there was no unconscious- 
 ness in them ? — No. 
 
 6149. So that those could not be regarded as acci- 
 dents? — No, those were cases of peripheral neuritis. 
 Shall I give an abstract? 
 
 6150. I think so, ^and mention also the form that the 
 paralysis assumed ?— One was a man aged 50. Alcohol 
 could be absolutely excluded. He was working at » 
 new patent for mafeing gas for lighting purposes. He 
 stood over the retorts whilst replenishing them with 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 193 
 
 coal, and therefors had to inhale a gi'eat deal of the 
 gas, _and he was much exposed to the fumes whilst 
 cleaxing thefurnacj. In a few months he begaji with 
 pain in his right side and shortness of breath, and he 
 left off woTik for six weeks, and then resumed it. 
 His former symptoms returned, and after a few 
 months he began to ha^'e shooting pains in the legs 
 and larms, and his legs became so feabie that he had 
 to leave off work. Two years from the onset he came 
 to the ImiirmaTy. 
 
 6151. (Chairman.) The Manchester Infirmary ? — The 
 Manchester Royal Iniirmaxy, under the care of the 
 late Dr. Boss. 
 
 6152. You were there at that time?— Yes, and he 
 presented typical multiple neuritis of both arms and 
 legs. The heart was enlarged, and the blood showed 
 changes of ordinary ansemia. There was no albumen 
 in tiie urine. Sis months after admission and one 
 year after leaving off work he was convalescent, but 
 te was still unable to work, though the prospect was 
 good. The points about the case are (in addition to 
 file peripheral neuritis) the presence of anaemia and 
 breathlessness in a man who had bse:i previously 
 healthy and temperate. 
 
 6153. (Dr. Legge.) Was there any mental defect in 
 that case ; I think you said that his face was quite 
 expressionless ?— That was due. to the weakness of the 
 muscles themselves. I do not think there was any 
 mental defect. 
 
 6154. No affection of the voice? — No, I do not 
 think so. 
 
 6155. (Chairman.) And the other case in the same 
 period ? — In the other ease the man was agpd 43. He 
 was a furnace-man, and he was much exposed to the 
 fumes of burning coal. 
 
 6156-7. {Professor Allhutt) What date is this?— 
 1889. His symptoms were almost identical — that is, he 
 had an»mia in addition to the peripheral neuritis, his 
 heart was also a little enlarged, and he had no oedema 
 of the legs and no albumen. I have miade a note that 
 they were both healthy men, and not exposed to alcohol 
 or any other poison we could trace. 
 
 6158. (Chairman.) And did he recover? — Yes, he 
 recovered. 
 
 6159. Between 1889 and 1906 were you at the Man- 
 chester Infirmary all the time ? — Yes. 
 
 6160. You had no other case which was diagnosed 
 as being due to some other cause which might possibly 
 have been due to carbon monoxide poison? — No, I 
 think I should have diagnosed it. 
 
 6161. Are there symptoms which you have described 
 as being attributable to the poisoning by this gas such 
 as to render it at all likely that cases really due to 
 carbon monoxide have been attributed to some other 
 cause? Are they really distinctive symptoms? — ^No, 
 I cannot say that they are. 
 
 6162. So that other cases may perhaps have occurred 
 and been attributed tO' ailments prevalent amongst 
 persons not working in these occupations ? — Quite so. 
 Of course it is in the acute stage where you meet with 
 the characteristics. 
 
 6163. On the other hand do you think it is possible 
 that these cases were really not due to poisoning by 
 this gas, or do you regard it as certain % — I think 
 the probabilities are in favour of them being due to 
 the gas. 
 
 6164. You would not go further than that ? — No ; 
 for my experience of such cases is so limited. 
 
 6165. For instance, the case of the man who was 
 working in a kiln? — I was inclined to think in 
 that case certainly that carbon monoxide had a great 
 deal to do with it. I could not be quite sure, because 
 it was complicated by albuminura and indications of 
 kidney disease. 
 
 6166. Was the air of this kiln tested for carbon 
 monoxide, or is it certain that carbon monoxide was 
 there in considerable quantities ? — No, I never heard 
 it was tested. It was a long way from Manchester. 
 
 6167-8. Was it known that there was carbon mon- 
 oxide in the air 1 — No, I never heard anything about it. 
 
 6169-70. So that the carbon monoxide diagnosis was 
 ilerived simply from the man's symptoms I — And from 
 the history — from the probability that there was 
 parbon monoxide ; that would be the gas that would 
 be most likely to be in the kiln. 
 
 419 
 
 6171. (Br. Legge.) 1 think so, in a lime kiln. Mr. J. S. 
 
 6172. (Professor Allbutt.) That would be the pre- Swry, m.d. 
 sumption, certainly. ^ f"^.T907. 
 
 6174-5. (Professor Allbutt.) There is no hospital for — *— 
 not know ; it does not say so. " The patient had to 
 dinker a kiln which was at the base of a tall chimney 
 ■»hioh was partially enclosed." I think it was in 
 active work. 
 
 6175. (Professor Allbutt.) There is no hospital for 
 nervous diseases in Manchester? — No. 
 
 6176. So that nervous diseases go to the Royal In- 
 firmary,? — Yes, we get a large number from this 
 district. 
 
 6177. (Dr. Legge.) You are a medical referee under 
 the Workmen's Compensation Act at the present time, 
 are not you? — Yes, I get one case about every three 
 years, or something of that sort. 
 
 6178. Supposing that the chronic effects of carbon 
 monoxide were included in the schedule as a disease, 
 do you think that there would be any likelihood of 
 cases of paralysis which were not due to carbon mon- 
 oxide poisoning being attributed to it? — There would 
 be always that danger. It requires the highest scien- 
 titic skill to determine ; and there would always be a 
 danger. 
 
 6179. Even when, the highest scientific skill was 
 exercised by the medical referee ? — It would reduce the 
 danger. We are always open to the danger ; still 
 there would be cases which would be definite. 
 
 618U. What is your own opinion as to the point? 
 Do you think it should be included in the schedule? — 
 Is not that rather outside a medical answer? Does 
 not it include so many other things? 
 
 6181. (Chairman.) Perhaps iso. 
 
 {H/itness.) I think if those symptoms developed cer- 
 tainly from carbon monoxide, then, of course, it would 
 be a great hardship to those employed that they should 
 not be included. 
 
 6182. (Dr. Legge.) There might be cases where there' 
 is temporary unconsciousness followed by recovery, 
 and then four or five months later you may have 
 mental symptoms developing, and it would be difficult 
 to regard such a case as an accident? — Quite. 
 
 6183. There are such cases, are there not ? — Yes, 
 that is so. But, of course, we are trying to formulate ■ 
 a mode of procedure on such slight evidence — that is 
 what seems to me with regard to carbon monoxide. 
 Taking it as a practical thing, we do not come across 
 it in practical work. Years pass by without coming 
 across a case. We see a great variety of cases at the 
 infirmary, and yet rarely see instances of poisoning 
 by this gas. 
 
 6184. You do not agree with the statement that has 
 been made that people working where there is a slight 
 escape of gas, say, from gas irons in laundry works, 
 suffer from aneemia and debilitating effects due to 
 carbonic oxide poisoning? — I suppose so, but I could 
 not speak to that. 
 
 6185. You have not personal experience? — Perhaps 
 because one is not working in that direction. No 
 doubt cases occur, but do not often come prominently 
 before one. 
 
 6186. (Professor Allbutt.) You mean many of such 
 cases may have come before you, but there was 
 nothing specific about them to attract your attention ? 
 — That is so. 
 
 6187. I may go a little further than that and ask 
 whether you think if your attention were called to it. 
 there would be any specific sign by which you could 
 diagnose it ? — I should not think so in a chronic case ; 
 it would be represented chiefly by some variety of 
 ansemia. 
 
 6188. Do you think any examination of the blood 
 might give you any notion of the cause? — I do not 
 think so. 
 
 6189. To schedule the cause of a disease of this kind 
 means a certain amount of legislative machinery ; do 
 you thiuk that the reason for putting it in fore© is 
 almost too slight? — ^I should not like to say that, 
 especially after what Dr. Legge stated with regard to 
 the debility and anasmia from which such patients may 
 suffer. 
 
 6190. You have not come across such symptoms 
 among private patients as due to gas stoves and gas 
 
 2 B 
 
194 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. S. 
 Bnry, m.d. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
 fires ? — I think that I have seen such cases, but they 
 are not common. 
 
 6191. {Chairman.) With reference to poisoning by 
 carbon bi-sulphide, have you had any cases under your 
 notice? — None, except two that came about the same 
 period to the infirmary ; they were under Dr. Ross at 
 that time. I have made careful inquiries at Mandel- 
 berg's, in Pendleton, a large mackintosh works, and 
 they have had no' illness at all for many years. 
 
 6192. (Professor Allhutt.) That is an indiarubbex 
 works? — Yes. They do not know of such a thing. 
 There is a man I know there very well. I went into 
 the subject with him, but he assured me there was 
 nothing at all. 
 
 6193. (Chairman.) You have not had any cases in 
 your hospital ? — No ; I have had none since 1889, oi 
 about then. 
 
 6194. You have not heard of any cases elsewhere ? — 
 I have not. 
 
 6195. With reference to naphtha poisoning in india- 
 rubber works, have you had any cases of that ? — There 
 are on© or two doubtful cases recorded there. I do 
 not quit© know what naphtha is chemically. 
 
 6196. (Dr. Legge.) It is sometimes known as benzine ? 
 — It is a popular phrase ; I do not quit© know what it is. 
 
 6197. (Chairman.) You havei no reason tO' believe, 
 Trom your own knowledge, that in the indiarubber 
 
 "trad© there ie an industrial disease caused by naphtha i* 
 —I do not think so now, but the smell of naphtha itself 
 is quit© a healthy thing — there is nothing really 
 injurious about it. 
 
 6198. (Br. Legge.) In this case that you refer to in 
 your book the worker was also working with carbon 
 l)isulphidi3, was he not ? — Yes, that was one of Dr. 
 Eoss's cases ; he analysed it. He thought it was due 
 to naphtha rather than CS*. 
 
 6199. The symptoms were similar to those you would 
 expect from carbon bisulphide ? — Yes ; but the man 
 at Mandelbei^'s simply smiled when I asked him 
 about naphtha, and thought it was quite a healthy 
 Togxa where there were fumes of naphtha about. 
 
 't>200. The symptoms from carbon bisulphide are 
 ■ quite definite and distinct, are they ? — They were in 
 those cases apparently. 
 
 6201. (Professor Allbutt.) I think. Dr. Bury, you are 
 of opinion that those cases arose more frequently, and 
 were more severe in former times than now ; that under 
 the improved conditions under which these trades are 
 carried on they have become rarer? — I should like 
 to make that observation with regard toi CS^ cer- 
 tainly. Carbon monoxide is more indefinite. 
 
 6202. We have had very startling stories about the 
 action of bisulphide of carbon in former times ? — ^Yes ; 
 I remember a case about that time, in which a man 
 had a maniacal attack. 
 
 6203. And the cases were not a fewP — Yes, ttio 
 mental symptoms were very prominent. 
 
 6204. Do you as certifying factory surgeon examine 
 the workers periodically in indiarubber works? — Yes. 
 
 6205. About how many workers? — There are very 
 few at Mandelbsrg's. 
 
 6206. Half a dozen? — Half a dozen, roughly. 
 
 6207. You have seen those men now every month for 
 the last four or five years ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6208. Have you not been able to detect symptoms! 
 — No, nothing at all. 
 
 6209. No weakness in the grasp, for instance ? — No. 
 
 6210. Are you a visitor at Cheadle ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6211. You have not heard anything there of mental 
 disease due to this occupation ? — ^No. 
 
 6212. Nor, indeed, to any occupation or any trade? 
 — I do not think so, for I think one would have heard 
 of it. 
 
 6213. (Dr. Legge.) Supposing these regulations were 
 relaxed, there is no reason why the symptoms should 
 not be as severe as they were formerly ?-r<3uite ; I 
 ehould think so. 
 
 6214. Do you know of any fresh industries in which 
 carbon bisulphide is being used? — ^No, I do not. 
 
 6215. (Chairman.) Does your experience suggest to 
 you any other diseases to which various employments 
 might give rise, besides those you have mentioned, and 
 besides those which are already scheduled to the Work- 
 men's Compensation Act ? — No ; I cannot think of any 
 just now. 
 
 6216. You have nothing to suggest for further 
 inquiry by the Committee? — ^No. 
 
 Mr. Simeon Snell, r.K.c.s., l.r.c.p., called in and examined. 
 
 Mr. S. Snell, 
 F.R.e.s., 
 
 L.E.C.P. 
 
 6217. (Chairman.) I think you are ophthalmic 
 surgeon tO' the Royal Infirmary at SheflBeld ? — Yes. 
 
 6218. And Professor of Ophthalmology at the TJniver- 
 sity at Sheffield ?— Yes. 
 
 6219. You have made careful inquiry into the alleged 
 prevalence of cataract amongst glass-workers ? — I have. 
 
 6220. Are there many glass- workers in Sheffield? — I 
 think, as far as I can make out, it is one of the largest 
 centres in the country. I think there are about 6,000 
 within a fair area. 
 
 6221. And a considerable number of them are bottle- 
 finishers ? — They are bottle hands ; the bottlei-finishers 
 form only a portion of them. 
 
 6222. It is stated that it is the bottle-finisher who 
 is specially liable to cataract? — I do not understand 
 -that. That is not a result of my inquiry. Of course, 
 the bottle-finishers are the older hands ; it is the older 
 people that get it. 
 
 6223. There are several processes ? — There are s>3veral 
 processes. They begin as boys, and they gradually 
 work up till they get to be bottle-finishers. The 
 bottle-finishers in a bottle works are the best-paid 
 workmen and the more experienced workmen. 
 
 6224. It is the question of the workman's age, not 
 the process in which he is engaged, which, in your 
 opinion, makes him more liable, if at all liable, to 
 cataract? — I think so: I would rather put it in this 
 way — ^that I have inquired, as I think, tolerably 
 thoroughly into the subject, and I do not find the 
 frequency that has been alleged. 
 
 6225. When were your inquiries made? — ^Might I 
 put it in my own way ? 
 
 6226. Yes, do. — I have lived in Sheffield for some- 
 thing like 25 or 30 years. I have had the appoint- 
 
 ment I hold at the Infirmary for something like 25 
 or 26 years, I think, and there I have dealt with people 
 not only from Sheffield, but the whole of South York- 
 shire and a good part of the West Riding ; and this 
 bottle-making industry is situated in this district, 
 and is situated in towns and villages from which con- 
 stantly patients are coming ; and, as I have heard 
 from time to time that it has been alleged that bottle 
 hands have suffered from cataract, I have put in writing 
 on two or three occasions that, though I have lived in 
 this district, I have not been familiar with it. 
 
 6227. (Professor Allbutt.) How long has it been 
 alleged — some yeare ? — ^I should think 20 or so by the 
 Germans. I wanted tO' ascertain whether my obs&rva- 
 tion from practice was correct or not. Then I went to 
 glass works, bottle-making works, inquired into the 
 processes, examined the men, made inquiries of the 
 men, and the result of the whole of this is published in 
 this paper of mine — ^the whole of this inquiry. 
 
 6228. (Chairman.) In the " British Medical Journal," 
 January 5, 1907 P — Yes ; that I should like to put in as 
 practically my evidence. 
 
 6229. I think the members of this Committee have 
 all read it ? — There I examined the kind of work 
 pursued, and in the course of those inquiries I examined 
 100 men. 
 
 6230. Did the men use goggles or any other protec- 
 tive appliance? — No, I do not think so. Then I in- 
 quired of the managers and other people I met with 
 as well as the men as to frequency and they did not 
 sieem to know very much about it. dlen the next stage 
 of the inquiry was that I directed letters to the heads of 
 15 works. The result of the inquiries is put here in the 
 "British Medical Journal." Identical questions were 
 issued to all of them. I got replies from nine, which, 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 195 
 
 taken with the two works which I visited, means 11 
 answers. 
 
 6231. All those answers, were negative ? — Yes. This 
 is a sample : " I have no' knowledge of any case of 
 cataract during an experience of over 50 years," and 
 60 on. Then I tho light that another point in the 
 inquiry would be to obtain some information from a 
 sick society dealing with these bottle hands. That 1 
 had very great difficulty in getting hold of. I could 
 get paji;iculars of other trade societies, the unions and 
 60 on, but that did not help. I got hold ultimatel) , 
 however, of a sick society, not a very large ons, which 
 had been established over 30 years. During this time 
 there had been 463 members. Of this number 285 had 
 at various times 'been receiving sick pay, but only one 
 during the whole period had undergone an operation 
 for cataract. 
 
 6232. That is a trade society amongst glass 'bottle 
 makers ? — A sick society, not a trade society. 
 
 6233. A sick society limited to bottle workers? — 
 That is right. 
 
 6234. (Professor Allbuit.) That is about the normal 
 incidence ? — It is not extraordinary at all. I admit it 
 is a very small society ; but then the bottle industry is 
 not a very big industry in this - country. I do not 
 know how many are engaged in it — 30,000 or 40,000, is 
 not it ? 
 
 6235. (Br. Legge.) 1 think about that. —Then 
 another way of considering it was the age of the people 
 in Tvhich cataract was alleged. Then I find on 
 inquiry into the cases that Dr. Robinson published, for 
 ■instance — that is the only way I have got of going by 
 
 any cases in England — the ages of them he gave were 
 59, 59, 59, 53, 40, and 55. Three of those— tliat is, 
 one at 59, another at 40, and another at 55 — were not 
 operated upon ; the cataract was only incipient. Then 
 the only four cases I could find in my practice 
 in the last six years to compare the ages with 
 were 55, 64, S9, and 66. The ages of those do not 
 differ from the ordinary run of the cases. I took out 
 from my Infirmary records 1,042 consecutive operations 
 for cataract. Out of that number 668 were men, and it 
 works out that that is about the age^ — about 60, or just 
 under or over ; and that I think is about the average 
 age for cataract, as far as I know, everywhere. 
 
 6236. (Chairman.) How many of those cases were 
 bottle finishers or bottle workers ? — Only four ; but I 
 cannot declare positively that those are the only cases 
 that came to me, because the employment has not 
 invariably been entered. 
 
 6237. You have not any statistics showing in how 
 many cases the employment was recorded of those 600 
 odd? — I have not got it here — I do not know that I 
 have it at all. It does not help me personally at all 
 unless I have it as applied to all of them. 
 
 6238. Have you any reason to think that the process 
 in the Sunderland district is in any way different from 
 what it is in the Sheffield district? — I have evidence 
 of a man quoted in my paper. Of course I know 
 nothing about the Sunderland district. He is a man 
 aged' '56 — ha® worked in many places in England, Soot- 
 land, and Ireland — ^has been acquainted with about 
 2,0o6 bottle hands. He told me he had worked in the 
 north, b'Uti I doi not' know ho'W far it differs — 1 do not 
 know that it differs very materially. 
 
 6239. You have not made any inquiry into the point 
 whether there is any difference in the process which 
 would be at all likely to- render cataract less frequent 
 in this district ? — ^From what this man told me I dO' not 
 think 60. I take this statement : that in 1902 out 
 of 75 cataracts there were 18 of them among bottle 
 finishers. If that statement be correct it means this : 
 that out of the 20O or 300 bottle finishers who are 
 stated to be in that district, taking the number to 
 be 200, there will ibe a percentage of 8-5 of those not 
 only Bufferine from cataract, but ready to undergo 
 operation, wnich is a very large peircentage; and 
 if 300 be correct there were nearly 6 per cent. — that 
 nieans ready for operation, but it means a very much 
 larger number of people that are suffering more or less 
 from impaired sight; because cataract may go on 
 mcipiently for many years. 
 
 6240. Those 18 cases were an accumulation, were 
 not they? — ^I do not know. I got the hospital, 
 reports, land I found out that in the next 
 year the senile cataracts were 63. Sis of those 
 were among bottle finishers. In 1904 there were 76 and 
 
 419 
 
 L.E.C.P, 
 
 7 Feb. 1907- 
 
 two were bottle finishers. The next year there were j^^_ g_ g^^ 
 87 and two were bottle finishers. Then I had informa- f.E.'c.S., 
 tion that in the last year (1906) there were none at all. 
 
 6241. Have there been any recent inquiries into this 
 matter in Germany as far as you are aware ? — Not very 
 recent I think. I think three or four years ago. 
 
 6242. What was the conclusion arrived at there? — ^I 
 have in my paper three s-eis wf results. Meyhofer found 
 it prevalent among young people about 26 years of age 
 and engaged in glass works. Hirsohberg found it 
 prevalent amongst people about 40. I had better give 
 you the exact figures. Meyhofer found it prevalent 
 amongst people of 28 down to 24. His other investiga- 
 tions bore out the frequency of the affection in young 
 workers. 
 
 6243. When was this ? — I cannot 'give you the exact 
 year. 
 
 6244. (Dr. Legge.) You gave the date of 1886 for 
 Meyhofer ? — That is about it. Then Hirschberg went 
 into the subject some years later — I cannot tell you the 
 exact date. 
 
 6245. You mention here 1898? — Thank you. He 
 found five cases of 40 and over. Two had been operated 
 ■upon when he published his paper, and three had 
 not advanced so far. 
 
 6246. (Chairman.) Hare you any further information 
 with regard to inquiries in Germany ? — No, but I men- 
 tion another paper by a doctor named Probsting ; it is 
 a very short paper indeed. 
 
 6247. From any other country? — There is a doctor 
 named Evitzki, in Russia. JSe investigated the 
 workers, and found only four affected in 70, the ages 
 b,eing 43 to 56, and h© says that is a period in -whiSh 
 cataract is observed even under the most normal con- 
 ditions. 
 
 6248. Do you find such a large praportion of cases 
 at that comparatively early age in persons not engaged 
 in this trade? — Among my cases previously men- 
 tioned O'Ut of 668 there were 67 between the 
 ages of 40 and 50, 159 between 50 .and 60 — it is 
 not infrequent. Then I may say this : Hirsch- 
 berg laid streS'S upon the exposure io heat. He had 
 been in the East Indies, in Calcutta and other places, 
 and he states that the people operated upon for 
 cataract were younger there than they would be in 
 Europe. I investigated that subject. I wrote to Dr. 
 Drake-Brockman, who has had a very large experience 
 in the East, and it came out to what I anticipated : 
 that the 'Hindoos, for instance, mat-ure earlier and die 
 earlier, and cataract may come on earlier. It is all 
 given here in my paper. Mahommedans who have 
 lives about eq^ial to other people have cataract when 
 it comes at about the usual age. 
 
 6249. Has your experience led you tO' the Conclu- 
 sion that any other processes tend to cause affections 
 of the eyes? — I have done a lot of work among steel 
 workers, and I looked up my records, and cannot find 
 that exposure to heat amongst them produces cataract. 
 
 6250. {Professor AllbuU.) Heat or light?— Heat or 
 light. 
 
 6251. (Chairman.) Or any other trade? — ^I do. not 
 think so. 
 
 6252. There is no trade process which affects the 
 eyeis ? — ^There are many trades that affect the eyes ; 
 there is electric welding, for instance — exposure to 
 electric light, but not producing cataract. 
 
 6253. How does' that affect the eyes? — In electric 
 welding the light is most intense. The employes pro- 
 tect their eyes from the intense light with large shields 
 with glass in the centre, arranged in alternate layers 
 of blue and red, of four thicknesses. If a man were 
 exposed to the light, or, as he calls it, " catches " the 
 light, the effect is soon noticed, but the worst does not 
 generally come on until some hours afterwards. The 
 most acute stage is during the night succeeding the ex- 
 posure. 
 
 6254. Does that incapacitate for more than a week ?' 
 — Fortunately, for not more than a few days. 
 
 6255. It never incapacitates for more than a weekf 
 — 1 do not know positively, but for some days. 
 
 6856. (Professor Allbutt.) It is the • conjunctiva ? — 
 Yes ; whether exposure of the retina has anything to 
 do with it I do not know. To all appearances, it is 
 confijied chiefly to the conjunctiva and cornea, but it is 
 very possible also that it occasions hypersemia of the 
 retina. 
 
 2 B 2 
 
196 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. S. Snell, 
 F.RC.s., 
 
 L.E.C.P. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
 6257. Is fE the same as the old and familiar snow- 
 blindness ? — I think so. I worked that out, but 
 whether it is the chemical rays or the heat rays is un- 
 certain, but I think it is held to be due to the chemical 
 rays. 
 
 6258. (Chairman.) There is no other case you would 
 wish to draw attention to in which workpeople are 
 injured in their ©yes through the employment in which 
 they are engaged, their disability lasting beyond a 
 week ? — I mentioned, when giving evidence on a former 
 occasion, di-nitro-benzol. I have also investigated 
 the effects of bi-sulphide of carbon in rubber works, 
 and I have inquired into other trades. 
 
 6259. (Professor Allhutt.) Will you describe the 
 affection 1 — It affects the eyes a variable time after ex- 
 posure to the bi-sulphide. In some, changes were 
 found at the optic discs, and in others not so. 
 
 6260. Would it incapacitate for employment? — "Very 
 much. 
 
 6261. Do you find it as a single symptom, or is it 
 always combined with other symptoms of poisoning? — - 
 I think there are usually other symptoms with it, but 
 I have not myself com© across cases lately. Some few 
 years ago — it may be ten years ago — I investigated it 
 in one or two rubber works. I think the process of 
 rubber-making is very much improved now, and is less 
 i'jrtful to the employes. 
 
 6262. You have not come across any cases for some 
 time ? — No, I am not quite in the way of coming across 
 cases now. The only rubber works I know are at Bet- 
 iord, and I made investigation there some years ago. 
 
 6263. Is there any quite distinct sympto^m that 
 arises from carbon bi-sulphide poisoning 1 — ^Yes, it has 
 just the character of cases of what are called toxic 
 
 amblyopias — that is to say, the blindness arises from 
 ■a poison getting into the system. There is a scotoma 
 in the middle — the sight is worst in the centre — ^and in 
 that centre there is an affection for colours ; rod, for 
 instance, is not seen as that colour. If a person looks 
 straight in front of him, and you hold before him a 
 little red disc, he does not see it as red ; He sees it as 
 a dirty brown colour ;but if you move it a little to 
 one side he will see it as red. 
 
 6264. Such characteristics you say arise from poison- 
 ing by nicotine ? — Yes, in some ways very similar. 
 
 6265. In any particular case you could hardly tell 
 whether a man had been over-smoking or engaged in 
 the bi-s'ulphide process ? — You would have other general 
 symptoms with it ■»ery often. 
 
 6266. You would not come across oases in which the 
 only symptom of carbon bi-sulphide poisoning was one 
 ooncerning the eyesight? — I think so. I am speaking 
 from recollection. I have published all this in Dr. 
 ■Oliver's "Dangerous Trades." Speaking from memory, 
 I think there are cases like that. I thmk I have seen 
 them — ^I am not sure. 
 
 6267. Is it alleged that there is .anything in the 
 anatomical character of the cataract itself in glass 
 bottle-workers which differs from ordinady cataract ? — 
 I have not seen any difference. 
 
 6268. Speaking as an expert, you are not aware of 
 any such difference ? — I am not. 
 
 6269. (Dr. Legge.) Professor Allbutt asked whether 
 it was alleged — I do not think he quite got the answer. 
 You gave your own opinion? — I think it has been 
 alleged that there is a difference. 
 
 6270. (Professor Allbutt.) I was speaking to you 
 rather as an expprt? — ^In the cases which I have met 
 with — and they are not many — ^I have not seen a dif- 
 ference. If I may put it in my way, I think what you 
 mean is this : Supposing a man comes^ to m© with 
 cataract ; I know nothing of his occupation ; is there 
 anything I can find out to tell me whather he is a 
 bottle-maker or not? I know nothing. 
 
 6271. There is nothing in the cataract itself which 
 would be peculiar ? — No, I do not know anything from 
 which you could say in a bottle-hand or bottle-worker 
 that cataract is due to his occupation rather than to 
 natural causes. 
 
 6272. (Chairman.) In those cases of bottlei-finishers 
 
 you have had under your notice ? — I do not think 
 
 they were iinishersi ; one or two were glass-blowers. 
 
 6273. In those six cases of glass-workers you had 
 under your cars for cataract did yo>u look to see 
 whether the distinctive symptoms suggested by Dr. 
 Robinson were prestent? — No, I iieoollect onie m.an 
 
 where it was incipient ; in the others I believe they 
 were ready for operation. 
 
 6274. I am not sure I have the medical term — it is 
 posterior cortical cataract? — ^Yes. 
 
 6275. Did yoiu look to see whether that was so? — 
 There is nothing I have seen which occurs to me aB 
 peculiar about it. 
 
 6276. (Professor Allbutt.) You do not recognise any- 
 thing in his description which would strike you as of 
 a special character ? — I do not think so. What I 
 should like to siay positively about this point is : 
 Supposing I go to the infirmary to-morrow, and a maa 
 presents himself — it may be a bottle-hand — -witti 
 cataract ready for opera-Dion, how am I to say that is 
 due to his trade ? 
 
 6277. (Chairman.) Unless it is a cataract of this 
 peculiar description ? Is posterior cortical cataract ' 
 distinctive? — Not distinctive in this class of men; it 
 is of frequent occurrence otherwise.. 
 
 6278. It is not very rare? — I think it is a question 
 of the observer. As far as I understand this inquiry 
 is to ascertain whether they should be scheduled or 
 not? 
 
 6279. Yes ? — The difficulty would present itself to my 
 to say. whether the cataract was due to the man's 
 employment. I could not say it on the evidence that 
 I have got. Even if the evidence were very much 
 stronger, I do not see how I could say in any case, 
 "Well, my good friend, you are entitled to compensa- 
 tion." 
 
 6280. You are of opinion that there is no distinct 
 posterior cortical cataract which can be termed glass- 
 worker's cataract ? There is no such thing as posterior 
 cortical cataract distinct from ordinary cataract? — 
 Cataract begins in various ways. Supposing there is 
 anything distinctive you could only ascertain it in the 
 early stages. You might have to keep a man under 
 observation for years, aa frequently cataract develops 
 very slowly. 
 
 6281. To tell whether it was posterior cortical 
 catajiact or not? — Yes, because when he comes ready 
 for operation, it woidd often be difficult or impossibl© to 
 say that the cataract commenced' in the poetei-ior pole; 
 it is only in tie early 6ta.ges that cataract can be 
 recognised as beginning in that way. 
 
 6282. (Dr. Legge.) He says aU the incipient cases 
 were posterior cortical cataract? — I take it that wh«i 
 it is advanced ready for operation, or when the period 
 of compensation would begin, and he would be so in- 
 capacitated from doing his work, you would hardly 
 see those peculiarities if they existed. To a lay mind 
 that is not perhaps very clear. 
 
 6283. I think it is? — It is the crystalline lens. If 
 the cataract begins at the very back, as the opacity in- 
 creases it gets all the way round to the front as well. 
 Nobody can say positively after a time which way it 
 began. AVhen a catar.act is so far advanced as to in- 
 capacitate a, man from work so as to entitle him to 
 compensation, it would be very difficult in many cases 
 to say where it began. 
 
 6284. Do you know whether the German writers on 
 the subject have declared at all on this point as to the 
 kind of oataract ?— I havB only a reference, I think, to 
 Meyhofer, who has mentioned soft cataracts in young 
 men. 
 
 6285. That is quite a different thing ?— That is quite 
 a different thing. There is a wide discrepancy between 
 the investigations. Meyhoter's are young people. 
 Hirschberg's are 40 years of age and over, just under 
 the ordinary age when it usually occurs. Those at 
 Sunderland are the ordinary run of the age, whether 
 they are glassworkers, steelworkers, agricultural 
 labourers — they all come about the same age. May I 
 say now that this is my conclusion, as printed 
 at the end of my paper : " My investigations appear 
 to me to justify, as far as this country is concerned, 
 the conclusion to which my practice in a large bottle- 
 making district had previously inclined me— that 
 though, as in other trades, there are men engaged in 
 the bottle trade who undoubtedly do suffer from 
 cataract, and who come under treatment for it, there 
 is not sufficient evidence to show that they are liable 
 to the affection to such an extent as has been asserted. 
 That is just my position. 
 
 6286. Would you describe the eye conditions that you 
 find i-esult from carbon bi-sulphide? — As far as I t»- 
 member the symptoms one got were those similar to 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 197 
 
 what one meets with in tobacco amblyopia and iodo- 
 form, aad others classed under th© nam© toxic amblyo- 
 ■pias. .. 
 
 6287. What do you see when you look with the 
 ophthalmoscope ? — Some observers ibave noticed changea 
 at the optic discs ; qthers have not found anything 
 markedly abnormal. The general symptoms resemble 
 in some ways those met with in dinitro-benzol 
 poisoning. 
 
 6288. And by the perimeter? — The area may be some- 
 •what limited ; as a rule, it is not very much. It 
 is the central area that is affected. 
 
 6289. And th© field of vision reduced 2- 
 reduced somewhat, but not very much. 
 
 -It may be Mt- S. Snelt, 
 
 F.R.C.S., 
 L.E.C.P. 
 
 6290. Is there recovery on leaving the work ? — Yes. 7 Yeh. 1907. 
 
 6291. Wllat is the nature of the lesion then?— The 
 poison must affect the nervous system, and affect 
 specially the particular band going to the eye, what is 
 called the macular portion. It is regarded as a retro- 
 ocular neuritis. When I get the shorthand notes I will 
 look it up and append anything I find. I am now only 
 speaking from memory. 
 
 Mr. E. S. Reynolds, m.d., called in and examined. 
 
 6292. (Chairman.) You are, I believe, physician to 
 the Manchester Royal Infirmary ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6293. And you have had under your care, diiring 
 jour experience, a very large niimber of working-class 
 fatients ? — Yes, for the last 20 years. 
 
 6294. You are able to tell the Committee generally 
 the kind of illnesses to which working people are 
 ipecially exposed from their employments ? — In sO' far 
 as they com© to hospitals. 
 
 6295. What specific trade diseases do you find most 
 common ? — Taking all together, I should say in all its 
 forms lead poisoning. 
 
 6296. That, of course, is included in the Workmen's 
 Compensation Act already? — That is already included 
 in that Act. That is derived from so many sources. 
 After that I should certainly put diseases arising from 
 dust. 
 
 6297. Lung diseases ? — Lung diseases from dust of all 
 kinds, taking the dust now not as poisonous dust, but 
 as dust causing mechanical irritation in the air 
 
 6298. What forms of lung trouble should you say 
 could be definitely diagnosed as being due to em- 
 ployment? — I should like to use the old-fashioned 
 term " mechanical bronchitis " — that is an old term 
 used by Walsh© — ^because in most instances the irrita^ 
 tion, in this district, shows itself as a bronchitis ratheir 
 than what is called pneumonia — certainly one does see 
 but very rarely fibroid pneumonia. In the maijority 
 of cases one would say it was bronchitis in the fine 
 tubes. 
 
 6299. Do you find that form of bronchitis in persons 
 not employed in processes in which dust is caused? — 
 Yes, occasionally, but to show you how characteristic 
 the condition is one has only to take a case which I 
 ■saw yesterday in one of my beds for the first time since 
 I sent this evidence. He was a boy who had got this 
 fine tube bronchitis, I at once said to him " What do 
 you work at? " because of the more or less characteris- 
 tic signs, and it was a most likely thing that it was 
 purely mechanical. He said he was a baker in an 
 underground bakery, and had been for years. 
 
 6300. (Professor Allbutt.) What age was he? — I can- 
 not say exactly, but I should say 24. He was an adult, 
 and was working in one of the .Jewish underground 
 bakeries, and he was exposed to dust for long periods. 
 By the way, might I just mention that he complained 
 that the bronchitis was really due to the improved 
 Tentilation that he said had been insisted upon by the 
 authorities, which he said caused draughts. The first 
 question I ask always is, " What is your work ? " be- 
 cause it is quite a characteristic thing. It will occur 
 ■without dust. 
 
 6301. (Chairman.) Is it frequent without dust? — 
 Yes, I should say it is frequent without dust, but it is 
 so very characteristic when one hears of it that I 
 always ask about dust. If a woman had com© with 
 this sam© condition, and I said " What is your 
 work? " one might say " I am a charwoman." But very 
 
 . O'ften they say " I am a rag picker or a ra^ sorter," 
 and th©y work in extremely dusty occupations. You 
 can tell from th©ir hair when they com© tO' see you. It 
 occurs in people who work with ©mery wheels ; it 
 occurs in people who work in iron foundries with th© 
 black sand. Curiously ©no ush; at present in one of my 
 wards opposite th© hoy with bronchitis from flour is 
 a man who has been ill for som© years — I have known 
 him for som© time — who is now very bad, practically 
 dying. H© recently has been working with a dry emery 
 wheel, and before that he worked in an iron foundry, 
 where of course they us© dry black sand, an extremely 
 
 dusty occupation; and it does occur amongst iron- 
 workers who work in the black sand in foundries. 
 Another form in which you get it is in dye works. In 
 some dyeing process, so I believe, they have to shake 
 out the hanks of yarn — a certain amount of th© pigm-ent 
 remains in these, and they ar© employed in shaking it 
 out. A case occurred som© years ago which I was 
 investigating for th© coroner where death had occurred. 
 In that case it was chromate of lead — lead poisoning. 
 In that case it was not so much th© irritation of the 
 dust as the actual poisonous quality of the dust. 
 
 6302. Do you find occasionally other forms of bron- 
 chitis amon.5 people who are employed' in dusty occu- 
 pations? — Yes; some slighter forms of bronchitis are 
 due to dust, but not with these characteristic signs. 
 Rarely one sees in bronchitis the distinct consolidation 
 of both lungs, but it is not so common as bronchitis. 
 
 6303. What is th© correct description of this f onn ? 
 — Pneumonokoniosis, which simply means pneumonia 
 from dust. 
 
 6504. That is rather begging the question, is it not ? 
 — It is simply a name for the conditions existing, by 
 which one means the inflammation of the lung induced 
 by dust. 
 
 6305. Supposing you had those symptoms in a patient 
 whose occupation yOu did not know, could you say it 
 was that particular disease, or would you have to 
 ascertain that he had been employed in a dusty occu- 
 pation before diagnosing it as this disease ? — Supposing 
 I find the physical signs of pneumonokoniosis — that 
 is to say, the consolidation of the lunjs — ^I should ask 
 the patient his occupation. 
 
 6306. But without asking th© patient his occupa- 
 tion ? — I think you will see my point. Supposing I ask 
 the patient's occupation, and expecting to get th© 
 answer I anticipated I get a negative, I should be dis- 
 satisfied ; I should cross-examine him with the idea 
 that h© had not given me a complete answer, that he 
 had at some time been engaged in dust, and I should 
 feel so certain of rinding it that I should think proba.bly 
 the first answer that he had given me, that he had not 
 worked in duet, was not correct, and that he had 
 previously worked in it. 
 
 6307. It is almost impossible for these symptoms to 
 be found, say, in an agricultural labourer or a carter? 
 — ^Yes, pneumonokoniosis with th© consolidation of 
 botli lungs — fibrosis of both lungs as it is called; but 
 fine tube bronchitis might occur in anybody, a child, 
 woman, or man. 
 
 6308. There are really two elements, fibrosis of the 
 lungs and fine tube bronchitis? — Yes. I should say 
 in this district the latter is far commoner. 
 
 6309. Fibrosis of the lungs is easily diagnosed as 
 occurring from a dusty occupation? — Yes, that is the 
 commonest cause. 
 
 6310. With regard to fine tubs bronchitis, could you 
 say there are any special symptoms which would 
 prove that the person having it had been engaged in 
 a dusty process? — No, I should not like to say so, not 
 to prove it. 
 
 6311. Therefor© if that disease were included under 
 that name in the schedule tO' th© Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Act it might be possible for people tO' claim com- 
 pensation who really had contracted the disease quit© 
 otherwise than from their employment ? — Yes, I think 
 so. 
 
 6312. Now supposing the burthen were thrown upon 
 th© worker to prove that th© disease was contracted 
 from th© employment, do you think the worker would 
 ever be able to prove that it was? — I think so, cer- 
 tainly. For instance, take the case of an emery wheel 
 
 Mr. E. S. 
 Beynolds, 
 
 M.D. 
 
198 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. E. S. 
 
 Reynolds, 
 M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 11.07 
 
 worker — a worker with a dry emery wheel. I think 
 that a medical man would he quite justified in saying 
 in the witness-box that the bronchitis had been caused 
 by dust, taking it for granted that there was no 
 previous history of such a thing. For instance, children 
 have bronchitis, or have whooping cough, and certain 
 of those children are always getting into this condition 
 and going on for years. Supposing there were no 
 history of previous ill-health, and a person is working 
 with fine dust, like a fearfully irritating dust, and 
 gradually contracts this mechanical bronchitis, I think 
 his medical adviser would b© justified in saying that 
 that had causei it. 
 
 6313. Although perhaps in the next house to this 
 man there was another with precisely the same symp- 
 toms who was, say, a carter ? — Certainly, it has nothing 
 to do with that. 
 
 6314. But there must be a certain percentage of 
 emery wheel workers who would suffer from this fine 
 tube bronchitis from causes other than their employ- 
 ment ; if there is one in 1,000 of the population 
 suffering from that, there would 'be one per 1,000 
 among the emery wheel workers? — I do not quite see 
 how that would work out mathematically because 
 everybody is not an emery wheel worker. I should not 
 like to say on the theory of probabilities that that is so. 
 
 6315. I do not say that the same percentage would 
 hold ; but supposing the average of the general popula- 
 tion with this form of bronchitis were on© case per 
 1,000 in a given period, while among emery wheel 
 workers it was found to be three per 1,000^^ — ^let us 
 assxime, therefore, that the prevalence of it is three 
 times as great among emery wheel workers — of those 
 three men per 1,000 one would hypothetically be suffer- 
 ing from this illness not on account of his oc-cupation ? — 
 That is so ; and if the percentage were only one to three 
 I should say it would be very difficult for the emery 
 wheel worker to prove his point ; but I am sure the 
 percentage is mucii more. 
 
 6316. Very much more P — Infinitely more. 
 
 6317. You have not any statistics? — There are no 
 statistics of the ratio of casss of fine tube bronchitis 
 to the population. It is iim.possible to say, but it is 
 small — very small ; whereas among the emery wheel 
 workers and workers in dust it is relatively large. For 
 instance, if you ask an emery wheel worker what hap- 
 pens to his fellows, he says they are all like this. Some 
 come to the hospital, some do not. Some are much 
 worse than others. He says it is a coimmon thing. It 
 is like boiler makers being deaf ; they are nearly all 
 deaf. (Some of them go to hosipital, some of them do 
 not ; but a very large number of workers in emery 
 wheel dust get mechanical bronchitis. Stonemasons 
 are another class you get. 
 
 6318. What symptoms differentiate this form of 
 bronchitis from other forms of bronchitis ? — ^Here, of 
 course, one can only enter into medical details, 
 which I can do quite easily. In percussing 
 these cases to begin with, generally the lungs 
 are quite resonant ; there is no sign of consolida- 
 tion. In mechanical bronchitis pura and simple, on 
 listening there is marked obstruction) in the fine 
 bronchial tubes, accompanied by high-pitched whistling 
 sounds, and sometimes with a few what we call fine 
 bubbles, but obviously affection of the fine tubas. 
 Another little point to a skilled ear — ^because, if I may 
 say so, of course I have diagnosed for years amongst 
 these out-patients — I think a skilled ear would also ba 
 able to surmise that there was a little consolidation of 
 the lung as well around some of these fine tubes ; that 
 is to say, as a result of the irritation inside the fin© 
 tubes there was a little fibrous tissue thickening out- 
 side the fine tubes, because the sounds I have described 
 are convayed rather sharply to the ear, with a dis- 
 tinct suggestion that there was a little solid material 
 more than usual convaving the sound there to the 
 chest. That is in mechanical bronchitis only. ' There- 
 fore I think to a skilled ear the sounds are rather 
 characteristic. I gave you the baker as an instance. 
 When I listened to tha baker boy yesterday I turned 
 round and asked him, " What is your work ? " I had 
 no idea what he was. He said, " I am a worker in an 
 underground bakery." Those fine distinctions were 
 theiie. With the other form, the pneumonokomiosis, 
 in which there is consolidation of the luaigs, in that 
 case both lungs are more or less consolidated ; tou 
 perceive it on percussion. If yoti percuss them you 
 find they are very much condensed on both sides, very 
 much like ordinary pneumonia, except that it is on 
 
 both sides ; therefore it is a chronic illness, not acute 
 pneumonia, and there one has a large quantity of 
 fibrine tissue as a result. Such cases are not com- 
 mon, but they are well described. I admit that they 
 are not common. 
 
 6319. What do you think the practitioner should 
 look for if he is in doubt whether the case is one of 
 mechanical bronchitis or of ordinary bronchitis? — In. 
 the ordinary bronchitis I think the ordinary practi- 
 tioner would find it extremely difficult to find the ordi- 
 nary fine tub© bronchitis of some types over this fine' 
 tu'be bronchitis due to dust. I do not think it could 
 be told. I would not be oartain myself. 
 
 6320. You would have to know the history of the- 
 case in order to ' come to any conclusion whether it 
 was due to dust or whether it was not? — That is so 
 certainly ; you wonld have at once to ask for the 
 occupation. If the patient worfcad in dust the chances- 
 are infinitely in favour — enormously in favour — of it 
 being a dust that has produ-ced it, because without 
 dust it is not a very common thing, after all, in the 
 peculiar sense that I am thinking of. It is commom 
 enough in children, but I am talking of adults. 
 
 6321. What would be the corract name by which 
 this bronchitis would be known — " mechanical,'' or 
 what ? — I should like to use the term " mechanical 
 bronchitis," which is to mv mind quite the best. It 
 is a term used by Walshe, one of the authorities on. 
 lung affection. 
 
 6322. Supposing the ailment were scheduled officially 
 under that name, would that be generally -anderstood? 
 ■ — No, I do not think it woidd. 
 
 6323. Is there any other name that would be belter 
 understood ? — I think yon would have to give it a name 
 which describad it — that is to say, call it bronchitis, 
 directly due to irritation by dust particles. 
 
 6324. Is not that rather begging the question? — ^It 
 is only a name for the condition, after all. I mean to 
 say, if you were scheduling this, one would say lang 
 disease due to dust — ^non-poisonous dust — irritating 
 dust would do batter. Some dust Is not necessarily 
 irritating. I would say du© to irritating dust par- 
 ticles, shown either by bronchitis or what is called 
 fibroid pneumonia. Then you get the two clinical 
 conditions in. I do not think " mechanical bron- 
 chitis " would do, because people might quibble at it^ 
 and say that an injury to the chest setting up bron- 
 chitis was mechanical bronchitis, and that is not the 
 thing onta means. 
 
 6325. Silicosis and siderosis ? — Those terms are sub- 
 divisions of pneumonokoniosie. There are plenty of 
 sub-divisions ; the commonest described is anthra- 
 cosis, due to coal. That is the most written about, I 
 should imagine. I suppose there are collieries under- 
 neath here, but I do not see much ot it. It is very un 
 common. That is one form. Then siderosis is due to 
 iron dust. Silicosis is a common form. That is 
 stonemasons' phthisis, so called. 
 
 6326. Would those cases cover all tha cases you have 
 in mind of diseaeed lungs? — Pneumonokoniosis would 
 cover most of them according to the general termino- 
 logy. It would cover siderosis, silicosis, which are 
 mere sub-divisions. There is another— byssinosis, 
 from cotton dust. This is the biggest cotton centre 
 in the world, yet I have never se-en it — that is, con- 
 solidation of the lungs from cotton dust particles. 
 
 6327. (JDr. Legge.) Then pneumonokoniosis would 
 be too wide a term ? — No, I do not think so. 
 
 6328. But we might have cases in cotton workers 
 attributed to this byssinosis, and claiming compensa- 
 tion for bronchitis which you have never seen. I 
 should not say caused by pneumonokoniosis, because 
 it is not due to dust. 
 
 6329._ Would silicosis and siderosis cover mechanical 
 bronchitis ?— No ; only those cases which are due either 
 to dry silicon, stonemasons' disease, or to dust of iron. 
 
 6330. It would include any in which stone was an 
 element ? — Yes. 
 
 6331. Siderosis would cover iron and steel grinding f 
 —Yes, it would cover those, but it would not cover 
 anthracosis. 
 
 6332. I think you said anthracosis you had not seen? 
 — I have seen very little of it. 
 
 6333. Again, one might get cases of bronchitis in 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 199 
 
 colliers, who would claim compensation for anthra- 
 cosis? — ^Yes, that is quite possible. 
 
 6334. One wants to fine it down so as to cover cases 
 in which the danger is recognised? — Yes, exactly. Of 
 course, there you would at once get .a dispute in the 
 witness-box. You wotild get two sides. A collier 
 might claim compensation ; he would get his doctor to 
 !say his bronchitis was due to coal dust. It might be. 
 It would be a very difficult thing to prove or disprove. 
 
 6335. (Chairman.) That is exactly the problem before 
 this Committee — how far we should go in recommend- 
 ing inclusion of diseases in the schedoile, with refer- 
 ence to which it would be almost impossible to get any 
 decisive evidence in any given case ? — I am afraid it is 
 ■very difficult to get decisive evidence in medicine at 
 all ; we can only take probabilities. 
 
 6336. With regard to fine tube bronchitis, you are 
 of opinion that if it were found in any person engaged 
 in a dusty occupation, the overwhelming probability 
 is that he would not be suffering from it unless he had 
 tieen engaged in that occupation? — In the type I am 
 thinking of, yes. I should be quite prepared in either 
 ■of the two cases — which aro at present in my wards, 
 as it happens, especially in the emery-wheel worker 
 who was previously in an iron foundry — if he claimed 
 ■compensation I should be quite prepared to at onoa 
 go and give evidence, strong evidence, in his favour. 
 
 6337. Although you might find precisely the same 
 symptoms in a persoij who had not been engaged in 
 that occupation ? — Yes, I think so. The probability in 
 his case is enormously in favour of it being dust which 
 has produced it. 
 
 6358-9. Are there any other lung diseases of which 
 the same thing might be said besides thosie which we 
 have mentioned ? — That they were due to dust ? 
 
 6340. Yes? — ^I do not think so. I think you can 
 only say that in mechanical bronchitis, which yoiu have 
 described, you do not get the dulness of percussion. ; 
 yooi do not g^ the marked fibrosis that you do in the 
 other type which is more of the chronic pneumonia 
 type. I do not know of any others. 
 
 6341-2. (Professor Allbuit.) I have a few quleslaons to 
 put to yoTi. In the first place, we can safely exclude 
 all children, cannot we ? — Yes. 
 
 6343. I suppose that as a matter of practice no case 
 is likely to come up under the age of 20? — No, I do 
 not think so. 
 
 6344. That clears the ground very largely. You 
 have no recollection of any case of koniosis under 20 
 years of age ? — I have seen one boy of 18 who came with 
 mechanical bronchitis, his face covered with emery dust 
 when he came to see me ; he was under 20. That is 
 the only one I can remember. 
 
 6345. Well, we will put it at 18, but, at any rate,i 
 this clears the children put? — Yes. 
 
 6346-7. Moreover, we may cut out all acute and toxic 
 cases? — Yes, ceirtainly, from this type. 
 
 6348. When you have then excluded all children 
 and all acute cases and toxic cases, such as influenza, 
 the remnant of fine tube bronchifs cases left apart from 
 koniosis is very slight? — ^Very slight. 
 
 6349. This seems to be one very important point 
 gained. Although you say fine tube bronchitis is in a 
 sense fairly common, yet most of it falls under the head 
 of children, and much again under toxic causes of 
 various kinds ; so that in adults chronic fine tube bron- 
 chitis is a rare laffeotion? — Distinctly rare. That is 
 "what I meant, of course, when I was pointing out the 
 question or possibility and probability. 
 
 6350-2. You think both flour and coal dust must be 
 included among the mechanical irritantsi? — ^Yes, I 
 think so. 
 
 6353. Although we are told that pulmonary affec- 
 tions in miners are a little under the average, owing, 
 perhaps, to the equable temperature in which they] 
 work? — ^Yes, but I think you ought to include the pos- 
 sibility of coal dust ; although the anthraoosis cases are 
 very rare. I have seen them, but only very rarely. 
 
 6354-5. (Chairman.) You think we ougEi to include 
 flour and coal dust? — ^Yes, certainly. 
 
 6356. (Professor Allbutt.) This fine tube bronchitis 
 due to dust goes on, or may go on, to a patchy pneu- 
 monia?— That is so. 
 
 6357. If that becomes extensive it is a fibroid pneu- 
 monia? — It is fibroid pneumonia. 
 
 6358-9. The bronchitis of dust is then a preliminary 
 stage of fibroid pneumonia? — ^Yes. 
 
 6350. Do you find, as a matter of pathology, that it 
 does not always go forward to fibroid pneumonia in a 
 marked degrae? — It may. It is an important thing 
 from the question of compensation. It not infrequently 
 goes on to a dilated heart and death without the pneu- 
 monia form. 
 
 6361. Then again dilatation of the brondhial tubas 
 comes on, does not it ? — Yes, it may come in, but quite 
 in the latter stages. 
 
 6352-3. It is not an essential part of it? — No, I do 
 not .think it is essential. 
 
 6364. My recent experience on this Committee 
 would dispose me to agree with you about this ? — I do 
 not think it is essential. 
 
 6365-6. To take up the very important difficulties 
 which were raised by our chairman. Of course, in no 
 instance can we expect to come to a definite conclu- 
 sion unless we have all the necessary information, but 
 considering that these cflises, with the exclusion® wi3 
 have made, and apart from dust, are very rare, and 
 presuming you to have, which I suppose you would 
 have together with this, certain physical signs and 
 symptoms, you would, if acting as referee, be able to 
 come to a decision in individual oases with a very high 
 degree of probability ? — I think so, if you get reliable 
 medical evidence. 
 
 6367. Then I will go a little further still. Suppos- 
 ing, for example, that you are told of a good deal of 
 hreathlessness and oough^ cand you note, some defective 
 seration of the blood, and supnosing these symptoms 
 to be out of all proportion to the physical signs obvious 
 to an ordnary medcal man (I am speakng of you as 
 a medical man specially skilled herein), would 
 there not be a strong presumption in favour of dust? 
 We have been told that usually symptoms precede 
 obvious physical signs — that a man gets short of 
 breath, bluish about the lips, and coughs? — I think 
 that is very likely, but there, of course, one has to be 
 very careful, because if you depend upon those only 
 you must be quite certain that you are not dealing 
 with congenital heart disease. 
 
 6368-9. You mean there might be some obscure heart 
 disease ? — ^Yes, for which, of course, the dust would 
 not be responsible. 
 
 6370. Now, the niext point of great importance is 
 the relation of all this to tuberculosis. In a sub- 
 stantial number of these cases, especially of long con- 
 tinuance, tuberculosis is found in the sputum ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6371. As a secondary condition ? — ^Yes, purely as a 
 secondary condition. I think that is also, if my 
 memory serves me aright, rather curious. Dr. Hilton 
 Fagge, in his text-book, says all such cases are tuber- 
 cular. Another authority says none of the cases are 
 tubercular. Dr. Hilton Fagge looking at them from a 
 post-mortem standpoint, the other from the physical 
 aspect. In the earlier stages they are not tubercular, 
 but in some cases they get infected later on. 
 
 6372. A certain ultimate accession of tuberculosis 
 does not, as we are informed, gravely modify the 
 course of the disease? — I should not think so. 
 
 6373. So far, I think, the way seems fairly clear. 
 Now w© come to another problem. Let us take, for in- 
 stance, a young man who is in a dusty occupation, Jie 
 has not been in it very many years — a, comparatively 
 short time. He feels ill, and presents the ordinary 
 signs of pulmonary tuberculosis. We Should be quite 
 clear that a case of this kind could not be put down 
 to the occupation. This I take as one extreme — that 
 we have a case of ordinary consumption starting in any 
 man, whatever his occupation may be. We should 
 find it fairly easy to put this extreme out of court ; 
 but may there not be a considerable group of cases 
 between this extreme and that of fibroid phthisis, cases 
 in which it might be alleged that the dust had been so 
 far a contributory cause of the tuberculosis that the 
 tuberculosis must be be put down more or less to the 
 occupation in which he is engaged ? — There again comes 
 the question of probability. I should say no, because 
 it is much more common to g?t tuberculosis without 
 dust than to get it as a result of primary dust cause — 
 I should say so, amongst industrial people — the in- 
 dustrial population, pure and simple. 
 
 Mr. E. S. 
 Reynolds, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
:00 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. E. S. 6374. Still, supposing the angument to be raised in 
 
 Beynolds, court in a particular case ? Here is a man with a per- 
 
 M.D. fectly health}' history ; he goes into this dusty employ- 
 
 ment ; he is in it ten years ; he then starts chronic 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. tuberculosis, with characteristic phjtsical signs, and it 
 is alleged that this is a fairly direct result of the 
 irritation of the dust. >Suoh cases might be majiy ? — 
 That is one of the i3normous difficulties that would be 
 raised constantly. I think my own feeling would be that 
 they would first of all 'have to prove not a small number 
 of years of true dust mechanical bronchitis. One has 
 examined so many of these cases, and examined the 
 sputum in so m.ajiy of them, and found no tubercle, 
 whereas in later stagesi one has found tulbercle. So 
 many gp on for years without tuberculosis. I think 
 before you can establish that tuberculosis was 
 primarily or secondarily due to the dust you vpould 
 first oif all have to have a history of ill-health for 
 some time arising from the dust. 
 
 6375. That is the ground upon which an expert re- 
 fenee would proceed ? — ^I think so. 
 
 6376. Now about alooihol. It is alleged that persons 
 employed in dusty occupations becom-3 more 
 thirsty than others : at any rate they drink more? — ■ 
 That is a point I still wanted to mention. I did not 
 know it had been already alleged. It is a point upon 
 which I can give you direct evidence. There is not the 
 slightest doubt about it. Take the emeiy wheel 
 worker wlio is now in the wards of the Royal In- 
 firmary. He has not only got all the symptoms of 
 dust and dilated heart, but has cirrhotic liver. He 
 tells you candidly his is a dusty job, and he drinks aj 
 lot. A large number of dust workers drink very con- 
 gidernble quantities of alcohol as due to a thiisty job, 
 and I am sure that the man I am thinking of noW; 
 who looks probably as if he might die, would not be 
 in the condition he is or be as bad as he is if it were 
 not for alcobol. He has a tremendously dilated heart, 
 a large amount of which is due to alcohol. A con- 
 siderable amount of dust— I find bronchitis and a 
 dilated heart consequent upon that, but a large 
 amount of it is due to alcohol. The alcohol comes in 
 in a large part of the cases. 
 
 6377. On the other hand, you have no knowledge of 
 this kind of bronchitis produced by alcohol in perscns 
 engaged in occupations which are not dusty ? — No. 
 
 6378. As regards the efiect of this upon the heart 
 and circulation, I think we quite agree — at least your 
 evidence is in accord with what we know. I do not 
 suppose that there is anything particular to ask you 
 about that. It would have the same eff'3ct on the heart 
 and circulation as in ordinary emphysema? — It is the 
 same thing. 
 
 6379. Is emphysema at all a part of this mechanical 
 bronchitis ? — ^Yes, they get barrel-shaped, just as this 
 boy baker, who is juGt starting with it. It is a condi- 
 tion in which the lungs get over-dilated with air. 
 
 6330. {Dr. Legge.) Apart from the condition of the 
 lung itself in this mechanical bronchitis, is there any 
 other lesion of the respiratory tract that you 
 observed? — No, not that you could put down to the 
 dust. 
 
 6381. I was thinking there might be some ulceration 
 about the margin of the nose, chronic rhinitis ?— I have 
 not .'seen that. 
 
 6382. No perforation of the septum ? — No, I have 
 never seen such a case. 
 
 6583. I should like to get some idea of the duration 
 of the incapacity caused by the mechanical bronchitis. 
 In the first place, do they get acute attacks of bron- 
 chitis which lay them up ? — They get exacerbations ; 
 they get increases which may lay them up and render 
 them unfit for work ; for instance, if they get a little 
 cold it is worse than with an ordinary person; they 
 lie up .and go off work. 
 
 6384. (Chairman.) Would it be called fine tube 
 bronchitis if they were incapacitated in that way? — 
 Tes, I think so. It would be fine tube bronchitis 
 made worse by the ordinary congestion one gets during 
 hrrmcbitis. 
 
 fiSR,5. (Dr. Legge.) In the course of years the exacer- 
 bations get more and more severe, and you get this 
 dilat-ed condition of the heart, and they become sub- 
 jects of chronic bronchitis? — Yes, and become abso- 
 lutely incapacitated. I always tell those people imme- 
 diately I diagnose to immediately leave their occupa- 
 
 tions ; it does not matter what they do provided it 
 is not in dust. It is undoubtedly a fatal thing in, th* 
 end if they go on. 
 
 6386. That may incapacitate them for five or tan 
 years 1 — Or over-v-all their lives. 
 
 6387. I was anxious to get an idea of how long they 
 live after this permanently incapacitated condition ?—- 
 It is diflJcult for me to say. Of course, there are- 
 statistics available of the duration of life in stone- 
 masons and also of the duration of life of the grinder* 
 of Sheffield. I cannot give you them at present. I 
 think the dry grinders of Sheffield have a life of some- 
 thing like 30 — that is the duration of life. 
 
 6388. That is the fibrosis condition ? — Yes, I know 
 but still it is the average duration of life of the grinders 
 of Sheffield ; it is very low. The stonemasons again are 
 not long lived. In these cases it is very difficult to say 
 how long they will last, I am afraid. 
 
 6389. (Professor Allbutt.) They are used to having a 
 cough, and it is some time before they seek medical 
 advice ? — Yes. 
 
 6390. Very often they go five or ten years before, 
 asking for advice?— Yes, they are used to it. They 
 have it, are used to their occupation, do their work 
 and do not complain, and all the time they are suffer- 
 ing, until they get an exacerbation, and then thev come 
 to the hospital. 
 
 6391. (Br. Legge.) You do not seem to draw a dis- 
 tinction between the two conditions ?— 'So far as the- 
 symptoms I do. 
 
 6392. But you group the stonemasons and the' 
 grinders of Sheffield, whom one regards as definite 
 cases of fibrosis of the lungs ?— I should group them all 
 (quite apart from the physical signs) as dust diseases, 
 and as disabling diseases. I should group them 
 together. 
 
 6393. Do you not think that the cases of fibrosis of 
 the lungs aj-© much shorter in duration, that death 
 results much sooner in the Sheffield grinder than in 
 the baker, we will say? — Certainly, there is no doubt 
 the silicon particles or the iron particles are much 
 more irritating. With an emery wheel worker it is aa 
 intensely irritating dust. 
 
 6394. That would be silica ?— Corundum is one form 
 of silica, I suppose. I do not know geologically.' 
 
 6395. Under the microscope would flour dust appear 
 to have irritating properties? — No, not under the 
 microscope. Starch granules would not look irritating 
 particularly. 
 
 6396. And could easily be coughed up?— Yes, it 
 could easily be coughed up, too. 
 
 6397. It would not remain in the bronchial tubes and 
 set up an irritation? — No, I do not think so, except 
 one must rer^ember that a cough itself irritates and 
 congests the bronchial tubes. 
 
 6398. In flour mills I grant that there is an in- 
 jurious dust, but that would be from the husk?— Yes, 
 that is so. 
 
 6399. Which would be a siliceous dust?— ^Yes. 
 
 6400. But from the pure starch you think that must 
 be regarded as a mechanical irritant to the lungs?— 
 There I am in a difficulty, because I never traced 
 these bakehouse cases. I have seen a few, quite enough 
 to make an impression upon my mind. They may 
 have been working with some of the wholemeal flour, 
 and that I cannot tell you. Whether poire white 
 meal, white flour, will produce mechanical irritation, 
 or whether the dust only found in those who work so- 
 called wholemeal flour I cannot tell you. 
 
 6401. You do not know whether in working that pure 
 wholemeal flour you get this particular condition of 
 fine tube bronchitis ?— No, I could not tell you. Un- 
 doubtedly you would be more liable to get it with 
 wholemeal flour, because undoubtedly they are sharper 
 particles. 
 
 6402. If that is so, you would be able to narrow down 
 your pneumonokoniosis rather so as to exclude certain 
 forms of dust ? — Yes, if it were the fact, if one could 
 show that certain dusts were not mechanically irritat- 
 ing ; that of course would be very difficult to prove. I 
 do not know anylbody who has direct evidence on the 
 question. I do not know whether the thing, has heen 
 worked at. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 201 
 
 6403. It is a point tihat could Ibe ascertained experi- 
 mentally, is not it? — I suppose it might be. 
 
 6404. Would you think, tiheoi, we can regard pneu- 
 monokoniosis as silicosis ajid siderosis ? — And anthra- 
 cosie. 
 
 6405. Although it ie recognised as not being a cauiso 
 of phthisis ? — Yes. 
 
 6406. You see, where in a collier it is caused by the 
 stone dust, naturally on his working that would come 
 under the heading of silicosis? — Yes, that is so. I 
 think the i-ecords are such that you must include 
 amongst the fibrosis of the lungs fibrosis produced by 
 coal dust. 
 
 6407. In that case it would be due to the silica in 
 the coal? — That is rather diflBcult to prove, because 
 those lungs are absolutely iblack. I have seen speci- 
 mens of them. It would be very difficult to prove it 
 was the stone. 
 
 6408. If limited to that extent it must include the 
 fine tube bronchitis ? — Yes, that is so, I think. 
 
 6409. Do you think that fine tube bronchitis is 
 always the prelude to any fibrosis of the lungs ? — I am 
 inclined to think it probably is. It seems to me a 
 difficult thing for a mechanical irritant, taken in by 
 the air passages, to cause an inflammation of the tissue 
 outside the bronchials, and not to cause some bron- 
 chitis. That is why I prefer the term " mechanical 
 bronchitis." Those are the first symptoms, I think, 
 and that may go on for years before you get the fibrosis. 
 
 6410. (Professor Allbutt.) There are one or two 
 questions I want to ask you that I omitted. You 
 have told us about the variable rate of progress 
 under different kinds of dust. Do you think that per- 
 sonal susceptibility is an important factor? — I think 
 60, most certainly. I cannot prove it, but I think it is 
 very likely that personal susceptibility is a very strong 
 factor as to whether you get merely mechanical bron- 
 chitis or whether you get fibrosis as well. Certain 
 persons are much more prone to form fibroid tissue 
 than_ others. Some people get a scar which is a mere 
 nothing ; another person who has an injury gets a scar 
 that is an enormous mass. 
 
 6411. As regards bronchial irritation, that would be 
 much on a par? — ^That would be much on a par. I 
 think as regards fibrosis personal susceptibility is a 
 great element. 
 
 6412. Another point I omitted was about febrile 
 tompeiraturesi. W© have heard in evidence of this im- 
 portant criterion that vpihen a workman is ill with 
 chromic pulmonary disease due tO' dust, his tempera- 
 tures renmin normal ? — That is so. 
 
 6413. Even although in a later stage tubercle may 
 appear in the sputum ? — T!hat I could not say. 
 
 6414. Without entering upon debatable ground, 
 among the other elements in forming a diagnosis a 
 normal temperature would be an important one? — 
 Certainly. 
 
 6415. Would the cramped position of a grinder hold- 
 ing his metal against a wheel tend so far to muscular 
 fixture of the chest that he would be less- and less able 
 to draw a deep inspiration ? — I should not like to say. 
 
 6416. You have not ibeoome aware, on examining 
 cases you have seen, that sucih a fixed attitude of the 
 ctest has come about, apart from emphysema? — ^Not 
 apart from emphysema. 
 
 6417. (Chairman.) I have a few supplementary ques- 
 tions to put to you. I understood you to say, in answer 
 to Professor Clifltord Allbutt, that in cases of fine tube 
 bronchitis you would exclude acute cases from your 
 consideration as not being due to the employment? — 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 6418. Why is that ? — Because if you dO' include them 
 you will at once have enormous difficulty, because acute 
 fine tube bronchitis is quite common — you have whoop- 
 ing cough even in adults. I saw a case yesterday in a 
 lady nursing her children. She had whooping cough 
 and fine tube bronchitiB. It occurs in influenza and 
 other diseases. 
 
 6419. Cannot those workers get their fine tube bron- 
 chitis from their employment ? — They might do, but I 
 do not think they ought to have compensation until 
 they have got chronic fine tube bronchitis, 
 
 6420. Cannot chronic fine tube bronchitis develop an 
 *cut€ phase ? — Yes, certainly ; that one would call an 
 
 419 
 
 exacerbation, not a chronic one; they would then 
 perhaps go to hospital; they would then perhaps be 
 disabled, and possibly then might begin to claim com- 
 pensation ; but they should only have it, in my opinion, 
 if there was a long history' of previously fine tube 
 bronchitis. 
 
 6421. (Professor Allbutt.) There is a cei-tain technical 
 difference between the terms chronic and acute ? — Yes. 
 
 6422. (Chairman.) Fine tube bronchitis due to em- 
 ployment would not begin with an acute attack? — It 
 might do'. What I mean is this. A person goes 
 into a dusty works, and within a week develops acute 
 bronchitis. That might be due to dust, but it would 
 be a very difficult thing to prove, but I certainly would 
 not think he should have compensation for that. It is 
 his own risk, as it were. You might say, " Yes, we 
 will give it to him." I should think that those cases 
 only ought to apply in which the occupation for a long 
 period has produced the effect. Ammonia fumes, acid 
 fumes will produce acute bronchitis due to occupation, 
 of course — that is irritation which you have not so far 
 mentioned, and which I forgot. 
 
 6423. I will ask you about that later? — They will 
 produce an acute bronchitis, so acute that it will kill a 
 man within a few days. I have known several cases of 
 that. 
 
 6424. In the dusty occupations you do not think that 
 any injustice would be done if cases which began with 
 an acute attack were to be excluded from compensa- 
 tion ? — But how long is the attack to have lasted ? If 
 you say it began with an acute attack, and then com- 
 pensation is claimed five years afterwards — you cannot 
 word it that way. 
 
 6425. I mean no compensation should be given during 
 the period of that acute attack ? — Yes, I think so, if 
 the acute attack were an exacerbation of a chronic 
 form. 
 
 6426. I understood you, in answer to Professor 
 Clifford Allbutt's questions, to say that we should be 
 a;ble to limit the forms of bronchitis for which compen- 
 sation should be payable — that you would exclude alL 
 bronchitis among children ? — Yes, and those very toxic- 
 things, influenza and whooping cough. 
 
 6427. You would also exclude bronchitis if it took an- 
 acute form. The difficulty in my mind is this: if you 
 do that may you not be excluding cases of bronchitis 
 which are clearly due to occupation ? — You might ; but . 
 there, of course, everything would depend on the history 
 of the case. If a man with acute bronchitis claimed ' 
 compensation, I think that he should at the same time ■ 
 be able to prove that he had suffered for some period . 
 from a chronic form. 
 
 6428. You would not bar out acute bronchitis ? — No. _ 
 
 6429. Should you say that a man who was taking, 
 alcohol in considerable quantities would be more likely 
 to suffer from bronchitis than his neighbour in the 
 workshop who did not take alcohol ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 6430. He would ? — Undoubtedly. I say that without 
 the slightest hesitation. 
 
 6431. If Be suffered from 'bronchitis it might be more 
 severe ? — ^Certainly, it would be. 
 
 6432. Apart from symptoms clearly due to alcohol,, 
 the bronchitis symptoms themselves may be increased 
 by alcoholism ? — ^Certainly. 
 
 6433. Do you think that alcoholism itself might be - 
 considered at all a trade disease in these occupations 
 on account of the dust ? — No, I do not think so, because 
 of course there are perfectly well known safe methods- 
 which, by-the-by, I think employers ought to provide 
 for these dusty occupations. They ought to provide an 
 innocuous drink for their workpeople. That is my 
 feeling. 
 
 6434. If that were done, probably, if they had to 
 co'mpensate for these bronchial troubles, they would' 
 have less compensation to pay? — I certainly think so. 
 It has been done with haymakers and others. I think 
 it is don© so^metimes by Ooxporations for gasworkers. 
 
 6435. Have you had many cases under your observa- 
 tion of men suffering from one or other of these 
 troubles who were coal-miners? — No, very few — com- 
 paratively few. 
 
 6436. You have had some? — I have had some who 
 were coal-miners. There, of course, you would get 
 more evidence probably from the Wisan district or 
 from Haydook, though we have mines neiPe. 
 
 2 
 
 Mr. E. S. 
 
 Reynolds, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
202 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. E. S. 
 
 Reynolds, 
 
 ii.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907 
 
 6437. You are clearly of opinion that there are lung 
 troubles caused by coal mining ? — I should not like to 
 say '• iS^," but I do not think they are as common 
 as the text books think. 
 
 6438. Would you say to the Committee that you 
 are clearly of opinion that they are so caused by occu- 
 pation, or would you rather suspend your judgment 
 upon that ? — I would rather, if I may, refer you to the 
 Wigan district, where you can get the evidence of the 
 men, and where the industry is much more concen- 
 trated than here. You might get mechanical bron- 
 chitis in a miner due to another cause. In Wigan 
 you are likely to get the concentrated evidence. 
 
 6439. Cases that are caused by flour dust — have you 
 had many of them ? — No, not many. I could not say 
 how many in 20 years — I am afraid it would be im- 
 possible — but enough to make an impression for me to 
 know of my own knowledge without books that it is 
 a condition. 
 
 6440. Are you of opinion that these bronchial and 
 lung troubles come from the occupation of rag-sorting? 
 — Yes, I have seen women and girls who were rag- 
 sorters. 
 
 6441. Are there any other dusty occupations othtt 
 than those which have been ment'oned from which 
 these maladies arise? — There is another — I have seen 
 cases of it — people handling calico that has been 
 stiflened or dressed with china clay. I have known 
 those cases. Those are not common, but I have seen a 
 case, and possibly more than one. I can recall the 
 case. I have not a very good recollection of it, but I 
 know of such a case, in a patient working where theire 
 lias been china clay. 
 
 6442. Can silicosis or siderosis of the lungs ever 
 occur without dust as a cause? — 'So. 
 
 6443. The symptoms are to be clearly differentiated 
 as being due to dust? — ^Yes, I should say so if it is of 
 the pneumonic type — if it is of the solid lung type — 
 the fibrosis of the lung type. 
 
 6444. Are there cases in which it would be impossible 
 ix) tell whether the symptoms were those of siderosis or 
 silicosis, or, on the other hand, due to some completely 
 ■difierent cause? — If they were fine tube bronchitis 1 
 •do not think you could absolutely prove it. That was 
 the question we discussed as regards probabilities. If 
 it is of the pneumonic type — ^the fibrosis of the lung 
 type — I am rather inclined to say you could fairly cer- 
 tainly say it was dust essentially. If it is mechanical 
 bronchitis the probability is that it is due to the dust, 
 but it is not an albsolute certainty. 
 
 6445. You were saying that mechanical bronchitis is 
 sometimes caused by fumes ? — Yes, by chemical fumes. 
 You can get it from various chemical fumes acting as 
 an irritant, in which the fume is not poison itself 
 like the fumes of prussio acid would be ; for instance, 
 ammonia, nitric acid fumes, those are two ; hydro- 
 .chlorio acid fumes again will do it. 
 
 6446. Would there be any specific symptoms with the 
 "bronchitis which would connect it with the fumes ? — 
 Sometimes in very acute bronchitis you get laryngitis 
 at the same time — irritation of the larynx and fauces. 
 In this case it is not a question of chronic, it is very 
 
 - acute mischief, which may kill. 
 
 6447. If you saw a man with those symptoms would 
 you be able to say from the symptoms themselves that 
 he had been subjected to those fumes, or would you 
 require to know the history of the case? — You would 
 have to know the history of the case, certainly. 
 
 6448. Would there be any risk, if you did know the 
 Mstory of the case, of confusing symptoms so caused 
 with bronchitis caused in other ways? — No, I do not 
 think so, if you knew the history. They are very- 
 acute affections. 
 
 6449. It would be pretty certain that they were due 
 to the fumes and not to ordinary bronchitis ? — Yes. 
 
 6450. (Dr. Legge.) Need we consider the acute bron- 
 chitis arising from ammonia fumes and nitric acid 
 fumes ? Is not it in the nature of an accident ? — It 
 is in the nature of an accident as much as if he had 
 been holding a piece, of hot iron audi dropped it on 
 his foot. 
 
 6451. (Chairman.) With regard to carljon bisulphide 
 poisoning, you have had some cases of that under 
 your .observation ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6452. Have you had any cases in recent years? — 
 
 I cannot recall any case for m.any years now at all. 
 0ni3 of the first, if not the first case, I should thipkj 
 came under my notio3 when I was resident at Cheadle 
 Asylum in 1884. He was a gentleman, so I have been 
 told since, who more or less introduced this carbon bi- 
 sulphide process into this district, and he became in- 
 sane. Several others of his workers became insane 
 after that ; one was when I was resident at the 
 Royal Infirmary, and saw the medical "urgencies" 
 brought in ; that was in 1867 to 1880. Occasional 
 cases would be brought in that had sudden attacks of 
 acute mania while working in the gas. Then one 
 used to get subacute or more or less chronic cases in 
 which they had slight insane attacks and peripheral 
 neuritis, tingling in the fijigers, loss of power of the 
 limbs, and so on. Since that time in the seven years 
 ending last year in the out-patients in the infirmary 
 I could hardly recall any case that I can put down to 
 carbon .bisulphide. The symptoms were' so grave and 
 dangerous that at last nobody could be got to work in 
 that gas, and they were made to guard against the ill- 
 effects by a fan or ventilator, or it was boxi3d in, or 
 something so that the workers were protected, and now 
 one soes practically nothing of it. I have not seen 
 anything of the kind for a long time. 
 
 6453. You have not heara of anything ? — I have not 
 heard of anything. There is one thing tha* comes in 
 here — naphtha. I may take that at the same time. 
 Here one has seen anaemic girls, pale, wretched, half- 
 fed people who come and say that they are working^ 
 in naplitha fumes ; and they half a,llisigp at any rate- 
 that it is the naphtha fumes that cause their condi- 
 
 ■ tions ; but asi far as I know I cannot say I have 
 ever seen a single symptom which could be put down to 
 naphtha which could not be explained by anemia or 
 half-feeding. Two or three days ago a private patient 
 came to my rooms who was complaining of neuras- 
 thenia. He worked in india-rubber works to a large 
 extent for years, and I took the opportunity of asking 
 him a few questions (without letting him know what I' 
 wanted particularly) about carbon bisulphide, and 
 seeing I was interested in it 'because I used to see 
 cases, he said, "It is all gone now." He was not a 
 master ; he was a worker ; he had no personal in- 
 terest. He said, " The carbon bisulphide is all gonp 
 years ago; they never get it now." I said, "Do not 
 you have nap'htha about ? " He says, " That does not 
 do anybody any harm ; I have never had any com- 
 plaints, and I have worked for years amongst these 
 fumes. You see men standing over the fumes all day 
 long. I never hear any complaints about naphtha 
 fumes." That was quite an unbiassed statement that 
 I got for the purpose of this Committee without let- 
 ting him know what I wanted. That was only two 
 days since. My own view is, as far as I have seen, 
 I have seen no symptoms you can put down to naphtha 
 directly — anaemia, yes. 
 
 6454. (Professor Allbutt.) You have had no unques- 
 tionable case? — ^No ; you could -easily have put down 
 the symptoms to something else. .; 
 
 6455. (Dr. Legge.) It has been asserted that epilepsy 
 may be caused by naphtha — that they get intoxicated? 
 — I very much doubt that. They gat intoxicated with 
 carbon bisulphide most fearfully, and have attacks 
 simulating epilepsy. I have never seen it frcan 
 naphtha. Thev used to go off after a few minutes. 
 They oonld only work for a few minutes in the old 
 days of the carbon bisulphide system. They used to 
 come out raving mad, and try to climb up the walk' 
 of the building, after two or three minutes' work. 
 After a time it passed oft, and they became, as a rule, 
 depressed. Some of them used to like to go back to 
 their work, because slight quantities of carbon bi- 
 sulphide exhilarated th>3m, and they lost their 
 melancholia. But if thev had too much they got acute 
 mania. From naphtha I never heard of it at all, and 
 certainly have never seen it here. 
 
 6456. (Chairman.) Are there any other illnesses that 
 occur among workers in indiarubber works due to their 
 employment? — I do hot know of any in indiarubber 
 works ; I cannot recall any at the present titae at all- ■ 
 
 6457. Have you had some cases of poisoning^^ 
 carbon monoxide? — ^That, again, is a very rare--a#*"'' 
 tion. There are no verv definite symptoms. T have 
 seen acute cases, of course, from coal-gas poisoning, 
 but that is another matter. In workers it is very un- 
 common. You g3t 3r certain amount of ansemia and 
 general ill-health, with just a little tingling of the 
 
DEPAKTMENTAD COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASEP. 
 
 203 
 
 ■fingers, but nothing to prove that it is carbon mon- 
 oxide. 
 
 6458. You have seen some cases of poisoning by di- 
 nitro-benzol ? — Yes, those I have seen. I hav3 seen a 
 case in the old days. There is a big anilin works 
 not far from the infirmary — some two or three miles 
 off. I have seen ons or two cases when I was resident 
 medical officer. An acute case there is no difficulty in 
 diagnosing. 
 
 6459. Were they cases of sudden poisoning? — Yes. 
 
 6460-1. You do not find a gradual poisoning case? — 
 They are uncommon. Risoently I had three sent to 
 me^-within the last fortnight, curiously enough. One 
 was a man. You could see there was something out 
 of the ordinary with him. His lips were distinctly 
 bluish, and he was pale. He had a certain amount of 
 numbness in the hands, a certain loss of power — 
 nothing very difinite. You could not tell what was the 
 matter, but it was something unusual. When ques- 
 tioned, you found that he had been working in di- 
 nitro-benzol. Going into his history, you found there 
 had been changes in the urine as well. In that case 
 the doctor wrote me a very good account of it. I did 
 not see the changes of urin© myself, but he had seen 
 them. 
 
 6462. Are you talking now of di-nitro-bsnzol or of 
 
 anilin? — I think it was the di-nitro-benzol fumes, not 
 the anilin pure and simple. 
 
 6463. Have you any idea, what was the man's 
 name, because we might trace him ? — I have it at 
 th© infirmary. Then there were t-Ro boys who 
 also came that were alleged to have this. One I 
 think had a little of it. In one boy there was 
 a doubt whether he had not also lead poisoning ; the 
 other boy had undoubtedly lead poisoning. Of 
 those three oases, one was a lead case, the other was 
 di-nitro-benzol as well. I will not say absolutely it 
 was not anilin. The symptoms are not unlike. They 
 cause some blueness. The other was, as I have said, 
 a mixture. This boy had been working at picrate of 
 lead, and there were in the rooms also some fumes of 
 di-nitro-benzol. 
 
 6464. Were they incapacitated for more than a week 
 in those cases ? — Yes ; it takes some time for the blood 
 to get into better condition again — probably three 
 months. 
 
 6465. Have you had any fatal case of di-nitro-benzol 
 or anilin poisoning ? — ^No ; the worst case I ever saw 
 
 was when I was resident medical officer, about 1890, 
 and he got all right. I wrote a paper about it at the 
 time. 
 
 6466. You have no other matters to suggest for tha 
 consideration of the Committee ? — I think not. 
 
 Mr. E. S. 
 Meynolds, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
 Trofessor B. J. Haev^t Gibso-n, 
 
 called in and examined. 
 
 6467. (Chairman.) I think you are Professor of 
 Botany at the University of Liverpool ? — I am. 
 
 6468. And have vou made an investigation into the 
 cause of the alleged poisoning by African boxwood ? — 
 Yes. I ought to explain to you. Sir, at once that 
 I was asked questions on this subject in 1905, just a 
 few weeks before I left for South Africa ; so that natu- 
 rally the research did not aim at being thorough and 
 complete. I left immediately after that, and knew 
 nothing of what had happened for three months. I do 
 not profess to say it is exhaustive. 
 
 6469. You have not made any further investigation ? 
 — No; no other questions were put to me after the 
 action of the Factory Department. 
 
 ■6470. What kinds of wood are the cause of this 
 poisoning? — There are 'several woods that are called 
 African boxwood. There is first of all the one whic'i 
 is bsst known as East London or South African box 
 wood. I do not know whether you want the scientific 
 names of the plants as well. 
 
 6471. We had better have them, I think ?— There is 
 the East London or South African boxwood, Gonioma 
 Kamassi, Apocynaose. That belongs to a very poi- 
 sonous order — the English psriwinkl© order. There is 
 amother, which is known as West Indian boxwood. I 
 do not think that comes under the purview of this 
 case at all, because it is not in dispute. I found that 
 the South African boxweed was also called by the work- 
 men West African boxwood, and a piece of West 
 African boxwood w^as also sent to me. 
 
 6472. Is there any other botanical name for West 
 Indian boxwood 1 — Undoubtedly ; the name of the 
 West Indian is Tabebuia pentaphylla. I think, as 
 there seems to be a little confusion, I had , better go 
 through them again. There is first of all East London 
 boxwood ; there is also South African boxwood. Those 
 two are the same — i.e., Gonioma Kamassi. They 
 belong to the order Apooyuacese. Then there is 
 West Indian boxwood, which is another plant alto- 
 gether. That belongs to another order, Bignoniacete. 
 Then, there is the West African boxwood, also called 
 yellow Congo mahogany. Tliat is a wood I had great 
 trouble with, but succeeded in finding it came from 
 a Blant called Sarcocephalus Diderrichii. That also 
 belongs not exactly to a poisonous order, but to one 
 which has many alkaloids — coffee, cinchona, whence 
 quinine, and so on — the order Kubiacese. So I had 
 to find out first of all which of those various woods it 
 was. I found that all of them were used for shuttle- 
 making. T found that the men did not know one from 
 the other, or, at aU. events, they confused them ; and 
 the first piece of wood that they sent me was the last 
 mentioned, genuine West African boxwood. I worked 
 through that, but could not get a sufficient quaiitity 
 
 41 
 
 to make any satisfactory chemical analysis. I then 
 demand3d from the Secretary of the Shuttle-makers' 
 Association a quantity of the sawdust. A sackful of 
 it was sent to me. When I got this material I was a 
 little suspicious. It had not aU the characters of 
 the small quantity of the Sarcocephalus, the West 
 African boxwood I possessed before. I then sent to 
 them for more wood. This was after I had seen Dr. 
 Legge, to whom I have told these details. Then they 
 sent me the East London or South African boxwood as 
 the wood that was causing the trouble, so that I had 
 been working to start with on the West African, and 
 had suddenly to shift to the South African or East 
 London wood, andl the East London wood was the one 
 with which all these chemical and physiological ex- 
 periments ware made. In the journal in which this, 
 paper was published, the "Bio-Chemical Journal,'" 
 Vol. I., No. 1, of January, 1906, there are relerences,, 
 and there is an extra page, which you have ther-^ 
 gummed in, pointing out how the men had unwittingly 
 misled me as to the source of the sawdust which they 
 sent m© for analysis. They sent me the wood of one thing 
 and the sawdust of another. They were not to know 
 the difference. I hsd no notion that all these different 
 woods were called "boxwood. None of them belonged 
 to the genus Buxus, the genuine Persian boxwood, 
 which, so far as I know, is not dangerous at all. 
 
 tATS. What was the result of your investigation ? — 
 .Aiter finding out that the sawdust pointed to its being 
 this South African boxwood, which was a well-known 
 plant, I then proceeded, with the assistance of two of 
 my colleagues, to check my work. One was Dr. Tither- 
 ley, lecturer on organic chemisti-y. I proceeded, with 
 his assistance, to look for an alkaloid. I went on the- 
 assumption that there was an alkaloid, and went 
 through a somewhat elaborate process to get a quantity 
 of alkaloid out of it, which process is detailed in this, 
 paper. Eoughly speaking, I think I may say we found 
 that the wood contained about O'l per cent, of alkaloid. 
 It agreed in all respects in its characters — such charac- 
 ters as the men could possibly distinguish — ^with the- 
 effects that they said the wood had upon them. Dr. 
 Titherley checked the process with me. I say tliat it. 
 agreed in all respects in its characters that the men 
 could distinguish — that is to say^ it had the same 
 smell ; it was apparent that it had a penetrating odour 
 impossible to conceal. It turned out a brownish, 
 amorphous, glassy solid when extracted. I say in this 
 paper that after distillation a thick, dark brown 
 syrup remained over, consisting of the free 
 alkaloid, which, on cooling, solidified into an 
 amorphous, brittle glassy solid. When burnt it 
 gives off a most penetrating odour with a distinct remi- 
 niscence of Turkey rhubarb, which the men said was the 
 scent that they perceived from men who were suffering 
 from the disease supposed to be caused by it. The men 
 said to me, and I think they said to Dr. Cegge as well, 
 that the patients exhibited a pale yellowish or gye3nish 
 
 2 c 2 
 
 Professor 
 R. J. H. 
 
 Gibson, ?i.A, 
 
204 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Professor 
 R. J. E. 
 
 Oibson, M.A. 
 
 7 Feb. 19U7. 
 
 colour on the face and body, accompanied by a peculiar 
 " camphor " or " Turkey rhubai'b " odour from the 
 breath and skin. Then, as I am not a medical man, and, 
 further, as I have no right to perform such experiments, 
 I asked my colleague. Professor Sherrington, to' go 
 through for me some experiments on the live heart, 
 because one of the characteristic symptoms of the 
 disease in the men was said to be cardiac weakness ; 
 and solutions were made of this substance — w© had not 
 very much of it then, only 0.7 gr. Solutions were 
 made not only in alcohol, but also in a standard 
 solution (Ringer's Saline it is called), and the net effect 
 of the experiments I will now describe. I need hardly 
 say we had control experiments as well — that is to say, 
 we tested the hearts with alcohol alone, and alsO' with 
 saline alone before the drug was put in. Professor 
 Sherrington and his assistant, Miss Sowton, carried 
 out the experiments for me in the Physiological labora- 
 tory, and we came to the conclusion, distinctly that it 
 was a cardiac poison inducing a gradually slowing 
 heart beat, a diminution of vigour of the contractile 
 tissue of the heart. We thought also that its effect was 
 cumulative. A succession of small doses had a cumula- 
 tive effect, and finally, after long exposure, caused 
 cessation of the beat altogether, further, we noticed 
 the extreme solubility of this alkaloid in salt solution. 
 The pulse tracings are here. It indicates at once, as 
 for instance here {indicating on chart), that a very small 
 dose is added. There is the place of entry ajid the 
 slow return is shown. Similarly with a large and 
 longer dose from there to there (indicating) with the 
 other solution. This is the alcoholic solution, the other 
 is the saline solution. The same results are produced. 
 I had two or three dozen of these tracings, of which 
 tiiose are samples. 
 
 6474. Were those experiments made on the hearts of 
 living animals? — Those were made on the hearts of 
 -animals just killed, the hearts taken out and kept alive 
 Tinder oxygen pressure — hearts of cats ; also I think, if 
 I remember rightly, they were made on the rabbit ; and 
 we had also experimental work by hypodermic injection 
 
 ■ on live rabbits. (Professor Sherrington has a vivisec- 
 tion licence.) They were put under chloroform and an 
 alkaline solution, was injected with the same results. 
 
 6475. (Professor Allbutt.) The artery being connected 
 with a mianomometer ? — Yes. We fslt it was more to 
 
 ^the purpose to get a higher mammal, to take a larger 
 heart, take it outside and do it on the same lines as the 
 experiments being conducted at that time in the 
 Physiological Laboratory for the Chloroform Commis- 
 sion, and all the apparatus was ready for the particular 
 experiments they were concerned in. I found it ex- 
 tremely useful to have the us© of their apparatus, and 
 let them do the experiment straight away. Th© net 
 effect was that we found that this alkaloid was very 
 soluble in saline. We knew that perspiration contains 
 relatively a large percentage of saline, and I had heard 
 from the men themselves — or rather from their repre- 
 -eentative, th© secretary of their association — ^that th« 
 men worked semi-naked down to tn© waist ; that it was 
 very hard work, that they were constantly perspiring;, 
 and found the dust from the work all over their bodies. 
 I suppose these men did not rub themselves down. I 
 conclude that the perspiration heing reabsorbed would 
 l©ave on the surface of th© skin a cei-tain percentage of 
 the alkaloid; that might be slowly absorbed by the 
 circulatory system and so transferred to the heart 
 dtself. That is practically, in a few sentences, what 
 my work is. The rest of the paper deals with the 
 -details of the subject, and also with the statements of 
 the men, accompanied by a detailed report which is 
 made by Dr. Hamilton Stewart, of Thornton, who 
 apparently had come across this in Yorkshire without 
 previous knowledge of what the cause was, and he 
 admits himself puzzled at first. In his own words he 
 says, " When I first saw him during a severe attack I 
 was quite at a loss to account for his symptoms." 
 
 6476. (Chairman.) Did you make any investigation 
 -to see whether this poison would be likely to have any 
 -effects other than the effect upon the heart ?— On some 
 other organ, you mean? 
 
 6477. Yes?— No; it was simply because of the re- 
 -p€a,t«d statements that the heart was affected and the 
 
 fact that on the two occasions, at all events, of death 
 «'°r \^^ *°^5' ^^^ occurred presumably from the 
 effects of this poison, that in both of those cases it was 
 put down to cardiac incompetence, to cardiac asthma- 
 it was that mad© us think of the heart to start with. I 
 am not a medical man, and can only speak at second 
 hand on this point. "^^i-uiiu 
 
 6478. You hav© not yourself examined any of the 
 persons suffering from this ? — No, I hav© not. 
 
 6479. How would you describe these woods generally 
 supposing it were intended to schedule their poisons as 
 subjects for compensation? — Do you mean in general 
 appearance P 
 
 6480. No, in terms. What term would you use to 
 describe these woods? — Do you mean so that anyone 
 would diagnose the woods ? 
 
 6481. I will put it in this way. Our business is to 
 advise what additions shall be made to the schedule of 
 the Workmen's Compensation Act. Supposing we wish 
 to include this disease which comes from working with 
 certain woods, how are we to name the woods from 
 working with which the disease arises ? — I understand 
 you now. I suppose it would be best known to the 
 trade as Knysna wood being shipped from a port of 
 that name, not very far from Port Elizabeth. That is 
 the port from which it is most commonly shipped ; 
 but it is shipped from East London also ; but there, 
 of coarse, again one is face to face with a difficulty; 
 that throughout these woods get popular or semi- 
 popular names, and things are called mahogany — I 
 know fourteen different kinds of wood called 
 mahogany, not one of which is mahogany — the result 
 is that we get popular names special to one part of 
 the country ; and it is quite possible that this wood 
 is known as West African boxwood in Lancashire, and 
 known as South African boxwood in Yorkshire. There 
 is endless difficulty with the names of these woods. 1 
 think I may say, roughly, it is most commonly known 
 as Knysna boxwood. 
 
 6482. Does this timber grow in any other part of the 
 world besides Africa? — Not that I know of. It forms 
 immense forests in Cape Colony and the borders of 
 
 Natal. 
 
 6483. It is not found in South America? — ^No, ac- 
 cording to the Kew Index it is a South African plant 
 pure and simple. 
 
 6484. Is there any botanical name which would oovei 
 all the woods which contain this poisonous alkaWd ?— 
 Yes, there is the botanical name Gonioma Kamassi. 
 That would cover Knysna wood, but Gonioma Kamassi 
 will not cover all the others. 
 
 6485. There is no name that will ? — ^No, certainly not. 
 That is one of the points that I always think ought to 
 be attended to much more carefully than it is. That 
 plant sihould be known authoritatively, say, to the 
 Chamber of Commerce or to some other authority, by 
 its scientific name. There would be no mixing it up 
 with other woods if it were known by its scientific 
 name, but if it is only known by its trade name it 
 is quite impossible to say what wood it is. 
 
 6486. (Professor Allbutt.) I think I understand, Mr. 
 Harvey Gibson, that your experiments were confined 
 to Knysna wood?— Yes, entirely. I immediately 
 dropped the West African when I discovered that the 
 men were wrong, that they were really using not West 
 African, but South African adl the time. 
 
 6487. Then you do not offer us any other evidence? 
 — I do not offer at first hand any other evidence, 
 although I may say I have good reason to suspect that 
 the so-called West African boxwood has also got an 
 alkaloid in it. 
 
 6488. (Dr. Legge.) Is the appearance of the West 
 African boxwood very like that of the South African 
 boxwood ?— Yes, it is quite like it. It would be very 
 difficult to tell the difference even microscopically; 
 but there is one character of the West African box- 
 wood, and it was the first thing that made me sus- 
 picious that there were two woods com^cemed ; it was 
 this—that the West African boxwood (I mean the Sar- 
 cooephalus) has a number of small cavities in it, from 
 the sizie of a pinhead to the size of a pea, with a little 
 yellow ochrish .sort of stuff in crystals. I hunted over 
 the Knysna wood sent to me, and, as far as I could 
 ascertain, it contained no -pockets. The pockets in 
 the other contained a crystallised alkaloid. I did not 
 niake any experiments with them. There is no doubt 
 that the Rubiacese, to which Sarcocephalus belongs, 
 contain alkaloids. 
 
 6489. Do you think the importers of these woods in 
 Liverpool would be able to give one samples of the 
 wood and say definitely, "This is West African Sar- 
 cocephalus, and that is South African or Knysna " ?- 
 Ihere IS not one importer in a dozen who knows the 
 botanical source of the woods he is dealing with. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 205 
 
 <6490. Do you mean that they are ignorant? — I do. 
 I mean that what happens is that a log of wood is 
 Ibrought down to the coast — ^I have had it told me again 
 .and again — at Lagos, or thereabouts, it is put on board 
 .ship on the chance of its being good wood, it comes 
 to Liverpool Docks ; a timber merchant says, " It is 
 good wood for my purpose ; I will have a hundred 
 tons." Ho calls it mahogany or box, because it is like 
 mahogany or box. Sometimes that wood comes, and 
 .sometimes another wood comes that is like it. There 
 is no check or system at present in use by which a man 
 who imports a single log can be sure hsi will get 100 
 :tons of that wood at any time he wants it. The proper 
 thing to do would be to have every log of new timber 
 that comes down, say, to the Gold Coast, numbered 
 -and a section preserved. 
 
 6491. {Professor Allbuit.) Does it come with the bark 
 on? — Sometimes with the bark and sometimes not. 
 'Sarcocephalus is called by the people there " N'gulu 
 Maza," or " N'gulu na mai," because the bark is like 
 4he skin of the water hog. I succeeded in getting a 
 Jbit with the bark on. 
 
 6492. With the bark on it could be discriminated? 
 — Yes, but that is not safe even. The only safe way is 
 .to get the flower and fruit. I do not say it is absolute. 
 As is well known, there are a great many woods which 
 have definite histological characters one recognises, 
 and that a wood is of that order or somewhere near it. 
 Ever since this matter came up (I have thought of other 
 <;ases as well) I have set to work to get photographs 
 made of sections of all the woods of commerce, all mag- 
 nified to exactly the same proportions — all multiplied 
 iby ten. I have now well on 2,000 photos, and these are 
 all catalogued in their natural orders. If a section of 
 wood were to come to me now, and I was told to find 
 out what that was, I should simply make a section, 
 magnify it ten times, and compare it with the thing 
 I suspected. Evietn that, of course, is not absolutely 
 accurate, because questions of temperature, moisture, 
 •or any conditions under which the plants grow, would 
 cause certain changes in the size of the vessels, and so 
 on, but still there are certain diagnostic characters 
 you recognise as characteristic of certain orders, and 
 we hope th'ereby to limit the chances of errors should 
 any such case come again. I think myself if these 
 various logs were only sectionised and a section kept, 
 and a number given to it, and it came to us with a 
 aumber, or was sent to Kew or, say, even to Liverpool 
 alone, with some of the leaves and dried flowers, and 
 perhaps the fruit, if it were possible, we then could 
 tell exactly what the plant was, and notice exactly 
 its character — whether it was a new species of 
 poisonous or non-poisonous wood, and we should be 
 able to send back word to the exporter in Africa to the 
 •effect that for instance, No. 56 was Gonioma Kamassi. 
 
 6493. (Dr. Legge.) Apart from this particular South 
 African boxwood, do you know of any other woods that 
 have been introduced in an indiscriminate way that 
 have had to be given up because they produced in- 
 jurious effects ? — I have known plenty of woods which 
 have been brought here undlar false names ; for in- 
 stance, there is one plant at the present moment — it 
 
 is not a poisonous wood — called bastard logwood. It, Professor 
 however, contains no logwood dye. I do not know ^. j. ji. 
 myself at first hand of any other wood that has been Gibson, m.a. 
 
 accused of having pathological effects. 
 
 7 Feb 1907 
 
 6494. I was thinking of a wpod called West Indian ' 
 
 satin wood ; it has caused dermatitis ?■ — •! have not 
 come across it myself. I cannot speak at first hand. 
 
 6495. Then, again, a sample of Borneo rosewood, 
 which you told me is not a rosewood at all ? — It is not. 
 I do not go further than that. I really think that 
 the whole question is a very important one, and should 
 be taken up in detail. 
 
 6496. But conditions like eczema, ulceration of tlw 
 skin, can be produced by certain woods? — Un- 
 doubtedly. I mean certain volatile oils and non-vola- 
 tile oils are given off from wood or other parts of the 
 plant, which often cause intense irritation, such as 
 Rhus toxicodendron. Primula obconica. Asparagus 
 officinalis. 
 
 6497. That is not used in commerce? — No, but I 
 believe Rhus has been used in error. 
 
 6498. You could yourself tell the difference between 
 Sarcocephalus and Gonioma? — ^Yes. 
 
 6499. (Chairman.) Have you noticed any resem- 
 blance tetween this alkaloid and curare ? — No. I have 
 not been dealing with payalysis of the sensory or motor 
 nerves. What I have been dealing with is direct action 
 on the heart. I have not done any experiments with 
 indirect action through the nervous system, save the 
 nervous system in the heart itself. Curare is, of 
 course, a well-known nerve poison, and would indirectly 
 act on. the heart. 
 
 6500. Do you think it is impossible or improbable 
 that this miay also be a nerve poison as well as a heart 
 poison? — ^I have not the slightest doubt about it. I 
 had a conversation with Professor Sherrington yester- 
 day. He said that he had no doubt whatever it would 
 affect other organs in the body ; but the heart was the 
 one he wsint for straight. We did not experiment with 
 live animals as a whole. 
 
 6501. How did you get your information that the 
 men worked half naked? — They told me themselviss. 
 That was the secretary's statement to me when I 
 catechised him on the first occasion. His description, 
 is heP3. " rinishing is, however, done by hand, and 
 each finisher works, I was told, for about one hour per 
 diem at this phase of the manufacture. Naturally 
 much dust is created, more especially in the final 
 sand-papering stage, when the workmen are extremely 
 lightly clad, being often naked from the waist up- 
 wards." They told me that themselves. I have only, 
 of course, their word for that particular custom. 
 
 6502. (Dr. Legge.) The efiect of this poison upon the 
 heart is to arrest its action ? — Undoubtedly. 
 
 6503. Therefore it would have the same effect, or 
 would probably have the same effect, on the respira- 
 tory system ? — And probably, in the long run, on the 
 digastive system — I am not a medical man — anything 
 that the vagus nerve has to do with. It is that nerve 
 which is affected chiefly in the first instance, anyhow. 
 
 Mr. James Reid, m.b., cm., called in and examined. 
 
 '6504. (Chairman.) You are a medical practitioner in 
 '•St. Helens?— Yes. 
 
 6505. You have been there for a number of years 2 — 
 "ITwenty-six. 
 
 6506. You have had a very large experience of the 
 -chemical workers of St. Helens ? — I have. 
 
 6507. Are you of opinion that they suffer from any 
 trade diseases through their occupation ? I mean to 
 isay, other than chemical poisoning P — No, I think not. 
 
 6508. No lung troubles or lung diseases? — ^No; that 
 is to say, I think they give an individual who is 
 somewhat inclined to bronchial mischief bronchial 
 '«atarrh or bronchitis ; breathing the atmosphere that 
 :you get at times in a chemical yard would tend to 
 ^aggravate it. 
 
 6509. What sort of fumes especially would aggravate 
 iit? — ^Ammonia, for instance, or any irritating fumes. 
 There is sometimes chlorine — hydrochloric acid. 
 
 6510. Nitrous fumes ? — I do not know whether they 
 4iave nitrous fumes. There is the packing of bleaching 
 Jiowder. 
 
 6511. Should you say that bronchitis was more fre- ^^fJ. j_ iJeirf 
 quent amongst the workers exposed to those fumes j^.g. c.M. ' 
 
 than amongst other people? — I think somewhat more 
 
 so. 
 
 6512. But not greatly more so ? — Not greatly more 
 
 BO. 
 
 6513. So, if you had' a case under your care of a man 
 suffering from bronchitis, the man having been working 
 in those fumes, you would not be able to say -with any 
 degree of certainty that his bronchitis was due to his 
 employment? — It is quite impossible. 
 
 6514. You would not even be able to say that it was 
 probably due to his employment? — ^No. 
 
 6515. Have you noticed any different forms of bron- 
 chitis amongst persons engaged in dusty prooesseei' 
 Have you noticed any difference in the bronchial 
 symptoms from those shown by people who are 
 not engaged in those processes ? — I cannot say. They 
 change so. A man will be working at one process for 
 three months or six months, say, and then at soma 
 other process. , 
 
206 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. ./. Reid, 6516. (Professor Allbutt.) You have no very dusty 
 11. B., CM. trades, perliaps, in St. Heleus? — Not now. Thene is the 
 
 packing of the bleaching povifder, and there is somo 
 
 7 Feb. 19j7. little dust about that ; but in the grinding I under- 
 stand it is done away with entirely — that is, in the 
 bleach mill. 
 
 6517. (Chairman.) Do you, com© across cases of 
 gradual poisoning from various chemical products; — I 
 do not mean sudden, poisoning? — ^Nbt unless an occa- 
 sional case of lead poisoning. Except that recently I 
 think I have noticed something in connection with 
 arsenic, not poisoning — it is local, more a sort of, I do 
 not know what it is, dermatitis — extreme irritation, of 
 the skin, and the surface gets broken. 
 
 6518. This Committse is not called upon to inves- 
 tigate poisoning by arsenic, because it is already in 
 the schedule ? — I know that, but this was a local action. 
 
 6519. Do you find phthisis frequently amongst per- 
 sons engaged in the chemical industry ? — No ; I am 
 rather inclined to think less frequently than in the 
 ordinary labourer. 
 
 6520. (Professor AUhutt.) Is there something anti- 
 septic in it ? — Yes, I presume so. 
 
 6521. (Chairman.) Workers in chlorate of potash 
 powder, do they suffer from any particular complaints 1 
 ■ — ^I Tinderstand a form of anaemia. I never came across 
 a -case. 
 
 6522. You have heard it spoken of? — Yes. 
 
 6523. Would it be anaemia that could be distin- 
 guished from an»mia from other causes? — I under- 
 stand so. I am not quite clear upon that point myself. 
 
 6624. You have sent m© soma tables of statistics 
 ■relating to diseases from which workers engaged in 
 chemical processes suffer. Will you explain to the 
 Co-m.mitte© what you gather to be the lesson to bo 
 learned from those statistics? — ^That bronchitis with 
 some of th© older subjects, the more chronic suflterers 
 from bronchitis, is probably more marked than amongst 
 ordinary labourers ; and they ar© incapacitated from 
 work for considerable periods, according to the weather 
 and according to the winter. 
 
 6525. Which figures go to show that ? — ^Here are eijrht 
 
 men who are incapacita<»d f«r 228 days ; five at 
 another works for 444 days. 
 
 6526. These are statistics, supplied by a sick cluh? 
 — By a sick club. It was a trombleeome thing to make. 
 I only got it a few minutes before I sent it off. 
 
 6527. Do you know whether the sick ■club giv>3s sick 
 pay if people are incapacitated' for a short time?—. 
 Certainly, for a week. I do not know whether ther 
 would pay for anything less than' a week, but certainlv 
 for a week. 
 
 6528. And those figures all show that incapacity 
 from bronchitis is more serious amongst th© people- 
 engaged in that trade than you would expect elsewheM- 
 or is usual elsewhere? — 1 do not think I should use a, 
 term quite so strong as " more seriou^ " ; it is some- 
 what more so, I think. 
 
 6529. Som'3what more what?— More than in other 
 work. 
 
 6530. More prevalent ? — ^Somewhat more prevalent. 
 
 6531. (Professor Allbutt.) What do you think are the- 
 causes ? Do you think it is due to irritative fumes of 
 any kind, or is it due to the character of their work-^. 
 such as draughts and exposure? — I think to a oertain 
 extent, as I said, in the case of people who are some- 
 wlxat susceptible they suffer from these fumes. 
 
 6532. It is irritative bronchitis?- -It is. 
 
 6533. Would you tall me the kind of physical signs 
 that you get in these cases ? — In the earlier condition:?' 
 
 6534. Is it that you have the ordinary signs of 
 common bronchitis ? — Just the ordinary signs. 
 
 6535. Not those obscure fibroid changes? — ^Np, not 
 fibriod phthisis. 
 
 6536. You do not suggest anything of that kind?— 
 No. 
 
 6537. And you hear crepitations about the chest T-^- 
 
 Yas. 
 
 6538. Of a very obvious kind ? — Very obvious. 
 
 6539. The summing up of this is that it is ordinary 
 bronchitis, whatever the cause may be? — ^Yes. 
 
 Mr. R. Peosseb White, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr E P 6540. (Chairman.) You are a medical man, I believe, 
 White, 'm.d. i^ practice at Wigan ?— Yes. 
 
 6541. You are also certifying surgeon iinder the 
 
 Factory Acts, and you have had considerable experi- 
 ence of men who are employed in the manufacture of 
 explosives ? — That is so ; certain explosives. 
 
 6542. Do those men sniffer from any diseases caused 
 by their occupation? — ^Yes. 
 
 6543. What diseases ?-^The poison due to di-nitro- 
 benzol. I think you probably know all the symptoms 
 You have the full details in my writings and investi- 
 gations and other people's work on the subject. 
 
 6544. Are you of opinion that those symptoms can 
 be easily diagnosed as due to that particular cause ? 
 — I do hot think they can be undei every circumstance. 
 
 6545. I mean if you knew the history of the case ? — 
 If I knew a m.an was working amongst di-nitro-benzol 
 I think there would be no difficulty at all, but sup^ 
 posing a man were working down the pit where there 
 was gas — firedamp, for instance, or black damp, which 
 causes some similar symptoms — I think it would be 
 very diffiaalt to distinguish the two. 
 
 6546. An expert observer, knowing that the man wa,s 
 engaged in a process in which di-nitro-benzol was 
 produced, would be able to say that his illness was due 
 to that cause?— An expert man, knowing that the 
 patient was working in di-nitro-benzol, would know 
 it was from that cause. But supposing a man has a 
 sudden faint — if a man goes into a vait or into some 
 suffocative gas he would of course probably have con- 
 vulsions or coma at once, but there might be other 
 causes which might simulate di-nitro-benzol poisoning. 
 
 6547. Do you get di-nitro-benzol poisoning acutely ? 
 — ^We have no acute forms. I have not seen an acute 
 form of poisoning for some years. 
 
 6548. You -come across chronic forms from time to 
 ■time ? — Yes, a lot of them. 
 
 6549. For how long a time would a man be in- 
 
 capacitated — I mean prevented from going to work? 
 —What do you mean by work ? The men are able to 
 work at the present time, and do work. We have occa- 
 sionally a case of suspension from work, but what I 
 mean is this : the men do work at the present time, 
 although they are suffering from some of the effects, 
 of chronic poisoning. 
 
 6550. I am speaking of cases in which men are 
 actually prevented from following their employment, 
 and are pneivented for a period of a week, which is the 
 period now fixed in th© Workmen's Oompeneation'Act? 
 — It is rather difficult for me to explain. If-a'ftiaii 
 suffers from mild di-nitro-benzol poisoning; he las of 
 course more or less sub-acuta symptoms. That man 
 with a week's time rest and treatment will probably 
 be able to do a certain amount of work. To an ordi- 
 nary inexpert individual and to himself he feels that 
 he is able to do his ordinary work, but that does not 
 say that he is free from the poison in hisi system, 
 
 6551. But we are concerned with the workmen's com- 
 pensation, and not directly with any question Of trying 
 to prevent these illnesses. A workman cannot claim 
 compensation unless he is away from his employment 
 owing to illness or accident for a period of at least 
 seven days. Now do you ever get any cases of men who 
 are away from their employment for a period of moite 
 than seven days on account of poisoning by di-nitro- 
 benzol ? — I certainly have not had any for some time. 
 
 6552. Have you ever heard of such cases? — Yes, cer- 
 tainly, and have had them at times. A man might geit 
 it and would be incapacitated for more than that. Yoii 
 understand, Mr. Ohairman, that my special point i» 
 this : that because a man is able to come back' to his 
 work he_ is not necessarily fitted for hard work. Mr- 
 Legge will tell you that he has seen men working with 
 certain symptoms of di-nitro-benzol poisoning wha<!h 
 were quite distinct to anybody who knows anything 
 about the subject. That man I speak of is able to do 
 a certain amount of work ; he is not fiffced for hard 
 manual work, but is quite fit for the work which l» 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DI ,3ASES. 
 
 207 
 
 does there. If he were asked to do blacksmith's work 
 <or heavy work he probably could not do it, and he obuld 
 Jefitimately claim that for .a prolonged period he will 
 suffer from some of the symptoms of a mild form of 
 aohronio di-nitro-benzol poiioning. 
 
 6553. He has^ been weakemad without being incapa- 
 citated ? — He suffers from a chronic form of poisoning. 
 jis a matter of fact, we have now no oases that are 
 precluded from work. 
 
 6554. (Professor Allbutt.) Is it stationary — does 
 not it go on increasing? — ^I do not think it is a 
 -cumulative poison. In my opinion it is not a cumu- 
 lative poison. I think after a certain amount of ex- 
 posure to fresh air and so on, and absence from work, 
 ihe men get practically free; You see, it is a blood 
 destroyer. It destroys the actual blood corpuscles, 
 .and those have to be re-made. As soon as those are 
 i«-made the man is practically well again. 
 
 ■6555. (Chairman.) In the meantime does he suffer 
 .a loss of wages while put to less arduous work? — Not 
 in my factory. They treat them very well. 
 
 6556- Do you know any cases in which men would 
 .suffer loss of wages by transference to other depart- 
 jiients ? — Not in our factory. They are very ' good to 
 Ihem. 
 
 6557. Have you heard of cases elsewhere? — I have 
 3iol 
 
 6558. Of. course the .cas;© would be rather a difficult 
 <me if we were to suppose that poisoning from di-nitro- 
 benzol were included in the schedule to the Workmen's 
 Comperasation Act, and it was found afterwards that 
 jiien could never claim compensation because they were 
 jiot prevented from working, and no claim could be 
 jnade because the sufferer had been kept away . from 
 work for seven days ? — But as a matter of fact, as soon 
 as ever these workpeople get to know, or the geiieral 
 jrun of medical men get to know, the symptoms, which 
 ihey.oanbyi reading up the .subject, they would readily 
 jmaigine or actually find symptoms common alike to di- 
 nitro-benzol poisoning and to eome other ordinary com- 
 jlaintSj and those workmen would immediately pose 
 iis claimants under the Act. There is no doubt it will, 
 oome the Compensation Clause. 
 
 6559. How do you mean ? — What I mean is this : 
 that . a workman handling or working oonsbantly in 
 ■di-nitro-benzol reqniires more than a foirtnight'si time 
 for the poison to entirely disappear out of the system. 
 Difficulties in this class of case will arise — ^first, as to 
 the len^h of time necessary for the poison to entirely 
 disappear from the body ; secondly, how far ordinary 
 sytaiptoms, such as palpitation, general weakness, 
 anaemia cfiused by other concurrent diseaises (liver, 
 heart, lungs). have been aggravated or made worse by 
 the' presence of the poison. 
 
 ^0. Although they really could work ?— Although 
 they really could work., M.ay I give you a case ? Some 
 little time ago I was called to see a man who had been 
 ill, a whole month. He was supposed to be gassed by 
 dijnitro -benzol fumes down the pit, and the man con- 
 sidered the ill^ffects of one short exposure entitled him 
 to claim oompansation for his illness lasting more than 
 a. whole month. I .know, of course, that so long an illness, 
 from such a clause ie highly unusual, and that a man 
 has' recovered before then from what they call " gass- 
 ing ,"^to use the ordinary term that they use although 
 there is no -such tiring as "gassing" from di-nitro- 
 hqrizol. A doctor had attended this man, and had 
 ^iven certificates for a whole month that he was suf- 
 fering from " gassing " down the pit — from di-nitro- 
 benbol' poisoning. I found that he was sufferiiig from 
 stone in the kidney, which of course had no connection 
 Tvljateygr;, with, di-nitro-benzol.; I saw the doctor. 
 After discussion of the sick man's symptoms with his 
 medical attendant,, he discharged the ;man. Now those 
 are the sort of oases we get, and those are the cases 
 "that -are. difficult. May I give you another instance of 
 "the difficulty I can foresiee in these cases? I mention 
 in my paper meningitis. A well-known surgeon was 
 called by my company to attend an inquest on a man 
 Tvho yras supposed to have djed of acute poisoning from 
 .di.iiitr6-benz6l,.' They had had a post-mortem, and 
 th<;y' had found pachy-meningitis — some adhesions in 
 the brain. The surgeon said that these might be caused 
 by. di-nitro- benzol fumes, and of course the man got 
 the benefit. Now ^'e know vety v?ell that di-nitro-benzol 
 is a. purely narcotic poison, and cannot produce any 
 physical lesion such as pachy-meningitis-. I have only 
 seen one case of death from di-nitro-benzol poisoning. 
 
 6561. You consider that it is essentially a very diffi- 
 cult matter to discriminate between ewes of di-nitro- 
 benzol poisoning aaid other cases, or is it difficult only 
 until you know the difference ? — I am going to give yoii 
 two instances which I think will appeal to you where 
 the ordinary medical man makes such mistakes. 
 
 6562. But a medical referee who was well acquainted ' 
 with the symptoms of this poisoning would be able to 
 distinguish ?-7-Some medical referees have no know- 
 ledge. 
 
 6563'. But a medical referee might be appointed 
 with special knowledge? — An expert on the subject 
 would always be able to do so. 
 
 6564. Do you ever come across any cases in your dis- 
 trict of coal miners who suffer from any lung trouble 
 from th:e inhalation of coal dust? — No, I do not think 
 I do. That is anthracosis. Although I have been in 
 practice for many years, I cannot say that I ever do so. 
 i have no doubt that there are such cases. I should not 
 Uke to give a decided opinion on the subjecit. 
 
 5565. (Professor Allbutt.) I understand you. Dr. . 
 White, that, putting accident out of the question, and 
 speaking exclusively of persons who have been sub- 
 mitted for a long time to the di-nitro-benzol, these ajre 
 cases of chronic poisoning ? — Yes ; these are the 
 ordinary cases I meet in my periodical examinations. 
 If these men are put on to different work or leave this 
 particular ernployment I am of opinion they com- 
 pletely recover after a variable period. 
 
 6566. The blood value drops while the man is at 
 work, but in a short time the workman would com- 
 pletely recover if taken away from it, .however long he. 
 bad been submitted to it? — First of all, a small dose 
 of it would produce dizziness, headache, nausea, 
 mental confusion, unsteadiness of gait, discolouration 
 of the mucous membranes, and a dusky colouration of 
 the skin ; in some individuals prolonged exposure to 
 small doses, it would produce peripheral neniritis. 
 
 6567. That is what I want to get from you.— It also 
 produoss anemia, and certainly it produces eventually- 
 a form of fatty degeneration. 
 
 6568. That is what I thought you were going to tell 
 us ? — I had not been asked by Mr. Samuel. 
 
 6569. (Chairman.) 1 thought we had all the symptoms 
 before. 
 
 (Witness.) Might I ask who has been giving evidence 
 on this di-nitro-benzol before. 
 
 6670. (Professor Allbutt.) I knew little myself about 
 it three months ago ; but we have had a good deal of 
 evidence, and visited works. 
 
 (WitTiess.) You have not mentioned that proportiotial 
 law-^that actuarial question I mentioned. That is 
 really the great difficulty we have — for instance, in 
 estimating the- relative propoz-tion of disablement due 
 to the effects of a poison, and, say, some other weak- 
 ness or disease, hereditary or otherwise, present in 
 the employee. Supposing a man- is suffering from 
 anaemia or any illness, he: puts it all do-wn to this 
 special kind of poisoning. ■ May I mention a case'? ■ 
 
 6571. (Chairman.) Do, please? — A doctor was attend-^ 
 ing a case. This case happens to be a case of consum;^- 
 tion in the lungs with tubercle in the testicle.^ The 
 doctor attends ; the man privately, also as his club 
 . doctor. The man breaks a blood vessel when he has 
 just left his; work in a coal mine, and is 
 brought up and dies shortly as the result. The, 
 medical, man in attendance naturally feels diffident in 
 giving evidence, having attended the man personally, 
 and knowing that- he -is "a consumptive case. They 
 ask me to make a post-mortem and give my evidenfce. I- 
 make a post-mortem. I find the lung is riddled with 
 cavities, and I also find, of course, this tuberculous ' 
 condition of the testicle. Then -the jury say to me, 
 "What has- he died of?" I say he has died of con- 
 Bumption, due, of course, partly to the haemorrhage 
 that he had. They then ask me, " Has the man's work 
 in the pit,, by favouring the hfemorrhage,. accelerated 
 death by five minutes or by any length of time ? " I 
 answer t cannot say it has not. He might have done the 
 same thing getting out of bed or from drinking an 
 extra glass of whisky and water. His life could not 
 have been a very long one, so far as we know from 
 the condition found post mortem. Then I , say the 
 strain of exertion at the man's work has accelerated 
 death. The man's life was in all physical knowledge 
 a poor one, but just the extra work that he had do-wn 
 the pit is supposed to have made him liable to what 
 
 Mr. B. P. 
 
 WUti, M.D.' 
 
 Feb. 1907. 
 
208 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. B. P. 
 White, M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
 happened, and everything was given in that man's 
 favour. Those are the difficulties. 
 
 6572. Those difficulties must arise in workmen's com- 
 pensation. A man is killed at the age of 75, another 
 at the age of 25. The dependents giet the same com- 
 pensation, although the value of the men's lives is very 
 different ? — That is what I meant by an aoturial esti- 
 mate. If a man in perfect health is killed he gets the 
 same value in compensation as the man who is practi- 
 cally dying at the time. 
 
 6573. Will you teU us whait are the symptoms of 
 poisoning by di-nitro-benzol ? — In the acute form, do 
 you mean — coma? 
 
 6574. In any form, not sudden poisoning, but 
 gradual poisoning? — In the gradual poisoning a cer- 
 tain amount of nausea, faintness, palpitation, a certain 
 amount of asphyxia, the urine tinged — ^that is urobilin 
 — you nearly always get that. Then if you get chronic 
 poisoning you get the symptoms of peripheral neuritis, 
 and this form of poisoning takes place also in men 
 who are shot-firers from improperly handling the di- 
 nitro-benzol. There is a difficulty that comes in with 
 regard to shot-firers who handle the material. I 
 lay very great stress upon the question of the absorp- 
 tion of the poison through the skin. You see, if you 
 put one grain of it to about 25 grains of ordinary fat, 
 aaid rub a -small portion into •Sie groin, you will at 
 once have marked symptoms of blueing of the face. It 
 has a most extraordinary action on the skin in that 
 way. 
 
 6575. What symptoms would you have? — Just a 
 slight faintness and slight giddiness, a little nausea 
 and slight disoolouraiian of the lips and mucous 
 membranes. 
 
 6576. (Dr. Legge.) That is to say, a very consider- 
 able number of red blood corpuscles must be destroyed ? 
 — Yes, and with the hsemoglobin a chemical combina- 
 tion takes place. You do not get meta-hsemoglobin ; it 
 is not quite certain what the precise change is the 
 blood undergoes. 
 
 6577. (Professor Allbutt.) All the men suffer to a 
 more or less degree, then? — ^Yes. You mean, I pre- 
 sume, men working in the stuff ? 
 
 6578. Yes, all men who are submitted to this? — 
 Yes, you cannot avoid it. 
 
 6579. Is there any large difference in personal sus- 
 ceptibility? Is this a large element in the matter? 
 Supposing, for example, two men to be submitted to 
 the action of this poison for six months ; each would 
 show symptoms, but probably not to the same degree, 
 and one might get peripheral neutritis and the other 
 not ? — On the whole it is fairly equal in its effects upon 
 all persons subjected to it under like circumstances, but 
 there are some nervous people with a special suscep- 
 tibility to it. 
 
 6580. The opportunity for men to throw themselves 
 (if I may use the word) prematurslyupon compensation 
 would be during the preliminary period, before any- 
 thing like peripheral neuritis had established itself? 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 6581. Would all the men probably go on to peripheral 
 neuritis, or nearly aU, if submitted to it for a certain 
 number of years ? — ^Yes, the difficulty I have to suggest 
 to you is this : supposing you have a shot-firer. A 
 shot-firer even may inhale gas in his work 
 down the pit, which is due, of course, to 
 black damp. So far as the physical effects, they 
 are simply due to want of oxygen in the blood. The 
 symptoms produced (by a man handling and opening 
 these cartridges (when he should not do — ^he has no 
 right to have to do it, but if he does it the symptoms 
 produced by opening these cartridges and handling the 
 di-nitro-benzol they contain) would be the same 
 as you would get from getting into an atmosphere of, 
 say, fire damp or black damp down the pit. Hardly 
 anybody could distinguish between the two. 
 
 6582. That we should call " accident " from our point 
 of view. Why do they open these cartridges ? — ^To put 
 in a detona.tor. Sometimes they used to break the car- 
 tridges in half to make the charge smaller. 
 
 6583. Do you consider from the symptoms that the 
 men suffer as much as they did ten years ago? — ^In the 
 other room I have sooie statistics which show you that 
 we practically now have very slight cases. These 
 favourable results have been brought about prior to 
 this poison being scheduled as a dangerous occupation. 
 May I bring those statistics in? 
 
 6584. (Chairman.) Please do.— I think Dr. Legg©. 
 has seen them. 
 
 6585. What is your factory ? — ^At our factory where: 
 I am working at we make three things — roburite,. 
 amvis and negro powder. 
 
 6586. What is the naime of the factory ?— The; 
 Roburite Works. Roburite contains di-nitro-benzol,. 
 about 12 per cent. Amvis contains about 6 per cent.. 
 In the negro powder it is di-nitro-toluene. We are- 
 doing very well, but even now Dr. Legge is not satisfied. 
 This table refers to 1888. It was not scheduled then. 
 This is work I used to have to do. I used to write; 
 a report every half-year to the directors. This is just 
 one of the reports that 1 found. Here is an average, 
 summary of sickness for six weeks in that year — 
 partial sick and total. 
 
 6587. What datra is this ?— 1888. It is ^oing a long: 
 way back. The funny thing is that I think the pro- 
 portion of di-nitro-benzol used was very nearly the- 
 same — it might be a little more, but I do not think 
 enough more in my own mind to make a differenos. 
 Now we have practically very few cases of suspension 
 or illness. You see the enormous ratio we used to- 
 have. (Handing in table.) 
 
 6588. Going up to 10 psr cent. ? — Now that is quite- 
 over. 
 
 65B9. What proportion of the men roughly now suffer- 
 more or less from di-nitro-benzol poisoning? — Ycm 
 mean slight symptoms ? 
 
 6590. Yes ? — In those actually employed I think you. 
 cannot quite avoid certainly some sligKl symptoms, 
 buifc these reports show the number of cases where mea 
 were absolutely prevented from working, and who canie> 
 to me in an absolutely helpless state. 
 
 6591. Thait showed that in a seven days week you had! 
 from 6 to 10 per cent, twenty years ago ? — Yes. 
 
 6592. Now how many persons would there be ? — Only- 
 very few ; four or five in the course of a year that I 
 have to knock off work. 
 
 6593. (Dr. Legge.) Is it not a fact that the workmeni 
 now know about how much di-nitro-benzol they can 
 stand, and that they voluntarily retire from the work 
 for a few days, perhaps a week? — ^Yes. One reason 
 also is the management at the works do not press them. 
 We do not give them more than about three days' 
 work. If w© put a lot of extra work on them we 
 might have trouble. 
 
 6594. When they go off La that way -will they get 
 their wages paid just as though they were working full 
 time? You see, they are practically suspended from 
 work while they are making up their red blood oor- 
 puisoles? — 'Well, it so rarely happjems that they have 
 to go off for that special reason that I hardly think 
 your difficulty comes into operation. I do not think so. 
 
 6595. It is very important thart; they should not he- 
 pressed ? — It is important, and they are not pressed. 
 We have relays. We put them on to other work. If 
 there is any man who feels not well he is at once put 
 on to some other work which takes him outside, and 
 his wages go on just the same. I think that is the 
 feeling of the management there. I do not know of 
 any hardship ever having occurred. May I give you 
 an instance?' There was a man had pneumonia, which 
 had absolutely nothing to do with the work. The- 
 management paid him, I think, if not for the whole- 
 time he was away, for nearly all. 
 
 6596. You mentioned that you thought that the skin 
 was one of the main ways in which the poison entered T 
 —I do. 
 
 6597. What other ways are there ? Do you think it 
 is inhaled ? — I do. 
 
 6596. As a vapour? — ^As a vapour it is very deadly. 
 
 6599. So that it g]eits into the system through the 
 skin ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6600. And through ihe digestive tract and tfirough 
 the lungs? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 6601. Have you examined the blood microscopicallj, 
 and can you see anything there which is characteristic f 
 —Yes. 
 
 6602. And differing from the blood in anaemia fK«n 
 some other cause — is there anything distinctive in the 
 microscopic examination of the blood?— A man must 
 be a very expert medical man to tell that. You know 
 what I mean. You are asking rather difficult questioM. 
 There are so many different forms of ancemia, as yon 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON 1NDD8TRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 209 
 
 know, and you know as well as I do that it would be 
 a very difficult question to answer. The darkening in 
 colour, the presence of coloured megalocyten, blood 
 granules, and the large number of crenated and broken 
 up red corpuscles mi^t materially assist in tih© defereio.- 
 tial diagnosis from other forms of ansemia. 
 
 6603. Do you know if tha* work has been done at 
 9,11? — I do not think it has as much as is necessary. 
 
 6604. By minute study of the blood changes? — ^Not 
 compaTatively with other forms of ancemia, but I think 
 you would be able to distinguish. I think thene would 
 be enough in the discolouration of the blood. 
 
 6605. What colour is it ? — A peculiar chocolate brown 
 colour. That of oooirse would be distinotiv© at once. 
 You are alluding to cases which have be«n months old, 
 perhaps ? 
 
 6606. Do you mean that people can go on working 
 with their blood in a chocolate coloured condition ? — 
 You have been round the factory theiie ; you ha,ve seen 
 the colour of the men's skins, have not you ? 
 
 6607. What I want to get at is this. You say once 
 it became known that a person could get compensation 
 they would stand away ? — I think they will. 
 
 6608. My point rather is that if they have their blood 
 :in a chocolate coloured state they are deserving of com- 
 pensation? — ^Quite so. 
 
 6609. And that they ought to be suspended from 
 work? — If you examine the blood of any of these 
 fellows. I do not say it is chocolate brown. This only 
 happens in severe and long exposure to the poison. In 
 such cases you get a large amount of hsemolysis ; you 
 get the blood cells destroyed ; they are broken up ; 
 J-here is no doubt about that. I have seen it in 
 animals. It has been accepted, I think. 
 
 6610. Is there some definite paralysis of the muscles 
 • of the hand which is a guide to you ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6611. Will you mention whaA those are ? — ^The hypo- 
 theinar eminence. You get a certain amount of wasting 
 in chronic cases, and yet get the inter-ossii also — feeble 
 also. 
 
 6612. But it is distinct from wrist-drop, for instance ? 
 •—Yes. 
 
 6613. It is different from that canised by arsenical 
 
 poisoning? — It is characteristic of many cases of 
 peripheirai neuritis. 
 
 6614. But the wastng of the hypotbenar eminence ? — 
 I should not like to say it is different from arsenical 
 poisoning. 
 
 6615. Do you get paralysis of the forearm? — No. 
 
 6616. Or of the upper arm ? — No. 
 
 6617. Or of the deltoids? — ^No, but I have seen 
 axBenical poisoning without that. 
 
 6618. I am thinking of distinguishing xt from lead ? 
 — You can distinguisih it from lead. 
 
 6619. Is there foot-drop^ — is there anything charac- 
 teristic about the gait of these men? — No, but in 
 acute cases or sub-acute cases you get the gait of a 
 man who is drunk. 
 
 6620. Have you experience of aniline? — I cannot say 
 that I have. I have seen one or two cases of poisoning 
 by aniline ; they have been caused by the local appli- 
 cations of this substance. 
 
 6621. Done experimentally ? — No, from works close 
 to me, where that case of chrome poisoning came from. 
 
 6622. Do you mean aniline black dyeing? — ^Yes, I 
 have only seen two cases. 
 
 6623. What did they come to you for? — Becartise of 
 a rash on the hands. 
 
 6624. That would be due tO' chrome ? — No, I thought 
 it was due to the aniline. 
 
 6625. Had they any changes in their blood or in the 
 colour of the lips ? — Not when I saw them. 
 
 6626. You mentioned that poisoning from this di- 
 nitro-benzol would not occur underground. Were you 
 referring to miners ? — Yes, I was referring then to the 
 effects of the explosion of high explosives in which di- 
 nitro-benzol is used. 
 
 6627. Of the gases from those from the explosion? — 
 Yes. 
 
 6628. Afterwards you referred to cases which had 
 actually occurred, and you said that they have been 
 from hajidling? — Yes, that does occur. I have seen 
 cases of it. There is no doubt they occur. You can 
 generally tell when a man does it. You find in his 
 hand a peculiar yellow appearance, quite charac- 
 teristic. 
 
 Mr. B. P. 
 White, M.D. 
 
 7 Feb. 1907. 
 
 TWENTY-FIRST DAY. 
 
 Friday, 8th February 1907. 
 
 PEESENT : 
 
 -Mr. Hekbebt Samtjel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Professor CiiFrOBD Allbutt, r.B.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Lbgge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Frank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 At the Caayton Aniline Works the Committee 
 -examined some of the workmen in the aniline oil 
 department who had worked more or less continuously 
 there, and who presented no signs of ill-health. 
 
 In the di-nitro-benzol department men were 
 ^shovelling out ihe product, and the Committee 
 
 examined two of them. Both these men wore respira- 
 tors, india-rubber frames with sponges in them. One 
 of them showed no signs of jMjisoning. He had only 
 worked for a month. The other man, who had worked 
 for six months, assured us that he was perfectly well, 
 and was not short of breath, but he presented evident 
 signs of anaemia in the eyes, gums, lips, and so forth. 
 
 Mr. Stlvain Dbeyftjs, called in and examined. 
 
 6529. (Chairman.) You are the deputy manager of 
 these works which you have been kindly allowing us 
 to visit ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6630. Do you have many cases of sicknessi occurring 
 amongst the men employed in these works ?— We have 
 not. 
 
 6631. Have .you ever had any case O'f illness which 
 419 
 
 you would attribute to the men being engaged in these Mr. S. 
 occupations ? — We have had, yes. Dreyfus. 
 
 6632. Were they incajwcitated for a long time ?— g Feb. 1907. 
 
 IVom aniline oil — from one to eight days, at the out- 
 
 side. 
 
 6633. You have never had a case of a man being 
 away for longer than eight days t — We have not 
 
 2 D 
 
210 
 
 MIXUTEW OF EVIDEXGE : 
 
 Mr. S. 
 Dreyfus. 
 
 s Feb. 1907 
 
 once every 
 
 6634. With di-nitro- benzol ? — With Ji-nitro-benzol 
 from one day to about a fortnigiht or three weeks. 
 
 6635. How oftan would a case of that kind occur 
 vith respect to men working in di-nitro-benzol ? — 
 Perhaps once every year. 
 
 6636. And with anilin? — With anilin 
 two years. 
 
 6637. Do you attribute those cases of illness to any 
 sudden definite cause — ^that is to say, some defect in 
 the apparatus or anything of that kind, or should you 
 say it was a chronic complaint due to working for some 
 period in the fumes 1 — It generally happens in the case 
 of accident ; if, say, a man gets some of ihe substance 
 (aniline oil) on his clothing mostly or by inhaling. 
 With di-nitro-benzol it seems to be chronic. 
 
 6638. Do you adopt any special pieoautions with a 
 view to avoiding these occurrences? — ^We have all the 
 necessary appliances like respirators, and instruct our 
 men to take those precautions to avoid it ; if they 
 get any of the sulbstance on their clothing to have the 
 clothing immediately removed, or if they get any on 
 their skin to have themselves washed ddreotly after. 
 
 6639. Do you ever get cases in which men eay that 
 they are suffering from the effects of one or other of 
 these poisons, and really their illness is due to some 
 other cause? — ^We have not had any cases. 
 
 6640. You think it is easy to diagnose those com- 
 plaints that come from those poisons? — ^I think so. I 
 think it is very easy. 
 
 6641. You have not had any case of any man who 
 has been ill for longer than lihree! weeks so far as your 
 recollection goes? — That is my personal experience. 
 
 6642. Over how many years ? — About 16 or 17 years. 
 
 6643. (Professor Allbuti.) Do you supply the respirar 
 tors to the men? — Yes. 
 
 6644. You supply the respirators to the men, and 
 you instruct them to use thos© respirators? — ^Yes, we 
 arrange the respirators ready for the men. 
 
 6645. I suppose the shovelling out of the di-nitro- 
 benzol is the most dangerous part of the occupation ? — 
 1 do not think so. 
 
 6646. Which do you think is the most dangerous ? — 
 I think it is the inbalation of the di-nitro-benzol when 
 in a Liquid state. 
 
 6647. Did we see that? — Where the di-nitro-benzol 
 is melted. 
 
 6648. That seemed to be carried on in closed vats? 
 — It is carried on in closed vats, but if the man opens 
 the apparatus, for instance, then there is that danger. 
 
 6649. That would be an immediate effect, an acci- 
 dental effect, so to speak? — The greatest effect. 
 
 6650. Is it part of their regular duty to open these 
 vats regularly? — ^It is not. 
 
 6651. How often would a vat have to be opened in 
 such a way as to make it dangerous? — A vat is only 
 opened when it wants water in it, which is once for 
 each operation. 
 
 6652. Then so long as the apparatus is working pro- 
 perly it ought not to be opened at all?' — It need not 
 be. 
 
 6653. Practically never if it is working properly? — 
 That is so. 
 
 6654. If something goes wrong it has to be opened ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 6655. You said that might happen how often ? — That 
 might happen once a day or once a week ; it has some- 
 times happened two days in succession, or it might 
 not happen for six months. 
 
 6656. Would the men ordinarily working in the 
 department have to deal with those special occasions ? 
 — ^We only have those men that are actually working in 
 that department who are allowed to deal with those 
 things. 
 
 ■ 6657. Then when these vata are opened do you gene- 
 rally anticipate that somebody will be more or less 
 temporarily poisoned with it ? — We do not. 
 
 6658. Generally speaking it goes off without your 
 hearing anything ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6659. Is there -any difficulty about casting that di- 
 nitro-benzol into blocks ; oould it not be cast in cubes 
 or blocks ? — There is no known way of doing it. 
 
 6660. Because in Huddersfield and here it struck me 
 
 that this is perhaps the most dangerous part of the 
 occupation. Opening the vats may be more so ; but,, 
 speaking of their habitual daily work, the men seem 
 to be more blanched about the face and eyes, and 
 so on, in this department than in the others?— 
 — Do I understand you aright ? You say at Hudders- 
 
 J^rtl J 
 
 6661. Yes, and Bradford, perhaps, too. At any rate, 
 wherever we have seen men digging out the di-nitro- 
 benzol I think those men seemed more blanched 
 than the others ? — They were more affected then. 
 
 6662. (Dr. Legge.) The people who were engaged in- 
 chopping it up. 
 
 (Witness.) Miay I ask one question — do they use 
 respirators ? 
 
 6663. (Dr. Legge.) No. 
 
 6664. (Professor Allbutt.) Your men who are wearing 
 respirators land who, I have every reason to suppose, 
 are weU as far as they know, yet have evident miarks of 
 poisoning about them upon their oompieiions? — I. 
 think that a man that is working in di-nitro-benzoL 
 always shows signs. 
 
 6665. They always look like that ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6666. But there is no way of running the di-nitro- 
 benzol into moulds ; it must be dug out by hand ? — Wp- 
 do not know of any way, or we should be very glad to 
 adopt it. 
 
 6667. (Chairman.) Do the men as a rule work con- 
 tinuously in this process, or do they have a few days 
 in the di-nitro-benzol process, and then turn their 
 hands to something else? — We have ad'Opted the plan, 
 within the last twelve months that we do not keep 
 them at it continuously. We keep them, say, a week 
 or a fortnight or three weeks in that one place, and 
 then take them out into other departments. 
 
 6668. You think that change of method has a bene- 
 ficial effect on their health ? — I think so. 
 
 6669. Do the men, in fact, use the respirators which 
 they are expected to wear ? — It is very difficult for us. 
 to make them do so ; in fact, it is practically impos- 
 S'.ble. I had a case the other day. I went throngk 
 and. found a man having the respirator off. I called 
 the m^aniager of that department, and directed his notice/ 
 to it. He said, "I have just left the place, and the 
 man had the respirator on then." He was then only 
 20 yaxds away from the place. I went back to the man 
 and told him that he must wear it. He siaid that he- 
 did not like being muzzled. It is the most difficult, 
 thing in all chemical works, not only here, to get the- 
 men to wear respirators. We have experience Siat in 
 most chemical works the men will not use respirators- 
 unless somebody stands beside them to see that they 
 do wear them. 
 
 6670. (Dr. Legge.) Do you think that that sponge 
 can in any way intercept the vapour ? — ^Yes, the vapour 
 coming into contact with the water in the spoage is 
 intercepted and the sponge will retain the vapours. 
 
 6671. That water in the sponge must make it a little 
 difficult for the air toi pass through ; the water takes 
 up space ; consequently they will get the air coming; 
 through by the shortest and easiest channel ?— The 
 sponge is only slightly saturated with water. It is 
 put in water, and all the wa-fcer is squeezed out, and 
 only then is it put into the respirator. 
 
 6672. This anilin vapour is dissolved in water 
 readily ? — Very readily — anilin and nitro and di-nitro. 
 
 6673. When it has been dissolved by the water in 
 the sponge, that water is giving up vapour constantly? 
 — There is so very little water in it. 
 
 6674. That water must constantly be evaporating 
 from the sponge ? — To a small extent, yes. 
 
 6675. So that the men would still get di-nitro-benzol 
 vapour notwithstanding the sponge? — ^I should think 
 that there is hardly any, because the cold air passing 
 through it will keep the sponge cool. 
 
 6676. You lay stress on the importance of bathing 
 when the material has got on the skin ? — Yes, and we- 
 have provided a bath on the premises. 
 
 6677. Do you believe in milk as useful to administer? 
 — ^We do. We give the men that work in di-nitro 
 benzol daily milk, and we also give milk to mian work 
 ing in an apparatus where anilin has been in. 
 
 6678. Why do you give that? — We consider that it 
 is a preventive. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 211 
 
 An antidote ? — An antidote to anilin ot to di- 
 aiitro-benzol ; we consider that sign® of poisoning will 
 jshow if no milk is given, or it will show to a smaller 
 extent if milk is given. We find that in anilin and 
 di-nitro-lDenzol the greatest enemy ixy the health of 
 the men is tShat they drink alcohol, and we give the 
 .men milk to accustonf them to drinking milk and to 
 give them, a good example — that they may make use 
 of milk instead of beer or whisky ; because a popular 
 idea is that if a mam does not feel well he must take 
 a glass of whisky or a glass of brandy, which is very 
 had in slight cases of poisoning, and more so in serious 
 .cases of poisoitiing. I mean to say that it accelerates 
 to a great extent any effect that anilin or di-nitro- 
 ibenzol might produce. 
 
 6680. (Professor Allbutt.) I was going to take one of 
 the Chairman's questions a little further. We could 
 .find in your works no douibt a certain number of men 
 >jfho show in their complexions the effect of some on<» 
 ■or other of these produots ; a whiteness umder the eye, 
 blue lips, and so forth. One or two of these men 
 show it now quite evidently. Now supposing that one 
 of these men, a malingerer, were to come and assert. 
 " I am ill with the poison of the work," and the 
 jhysician examining him no doubt discovers these 
 marks of ansemia, do you still think you would be able 
 to distinguish the malingerer from the real sufferer- -I 
 ratihieT gathered you said there would be no difficulty ? 
 —I think so. I think you could see it, and I think 
 the medical man who knows the symptoms and has 
 •seen cases would see the difference. 
 
 6681. It is not so entirely subjective, but that there 
 are certain other objective features by which the 
 physician could be guided ? — I think so. I think that 
 the signs and symptoms are so marked that it would be 
 very difficult for a medical man who has seen cases 
 not to distinguish. 
 
 6602. At any rate, you see no great difficulties in 
 •distinguishing the malingerers from the real sufferers 1 
 —No. 
 
 InDIA-RTIBBBB MASrUFACTUEING COMPANY, 
 
 Bank Stebet, Clayton. 
 The Committee visited this factory, and examined 
 
 the carbon bisulphide process. There was nothing 
 observaible La the condition of the workers showing that 
 they suffered any detriment from the process, except 
 in the case of one girl, who was pallid-looking, and 
 Dr. Legge thought that her hand graspi was abnormally 
 feeble. 
 
 Messbs. L Feankenbukg and Sons' Factory, Sali'oed. 
 
 In the afternoon the Committee paid a visit to the 
 works of Messrs. I. Frankenburg and Sons. 
 
 Alderman Frankeoiburg, Mayor of Salford, and 
 one of his sons met the Committee, and showed them 
 over the works, in whichi all sorts of rubber and 
 waterproof goods are made. They told the Oom- 
 mdttes that bi-sulphide of carbon was much less 
 used now than it was a few years ago ; dry heat 
 had been largely substituted for it, but there were 
 certain processes, such as printing on rubber, which 
 could not be done by heat. No worker was allowed for 
 more than two and a half hours at a time in a room 
 in which bi-sulphide was being used, and now they 
 never had any cases of poisoning from it. The firm 
 would not be affected in the least if bi-sulphide was 
 scheduled, even if the workers showed a certain amount 
 of carelessness in regard to their own health. From 
 what the firm heard, bi-sulphide was also used for wool 
 washing and sometimes for fixing leather treads to 
 rubber motor tyres. 
 
 As regards naphtha, they said that on entering the 
 naphtha rooms the evaporation was unpleasant for a 
 few seconds, but that the workers were quite indif- 
 ferent to it. 
 
 Dr. Legge recalled a case ahout four or five years ago, 
 when he visited these works, and a girl in the naphtna 
 room was seized with a hystero-epileptic fit at the time 
 of his visit. Alderman Frankenburg said that that 
 must have 'been qoxite exoeptional, and he did not think 
 there had been any similar case since that date. 
 
 In the room where patterns were printed on thin 
 waterproof cloth by colours mixed with naphtha, the 
 man in charge of the pninting machine told the Com- 
 mittee that he had worked that machine for the last 
 14 years, felt in the best of health, and had never been 
 off work for a day. 
 
 M,: S. 
 Dreyfus. 
 
 8 Feb. 1907. 
 
 TWENTY-SECOND DAY. 
 
 Monday, 18th February 1907. 
 
 ■ PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Mr. Henry Cunynghame, c.b. 
 
 Professor CLiproRD Allbutt, t.r.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Frank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. J. F. Arlidge, l.r.c.p., l.e.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 6683. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man, in prac- 
 tice at Stoke-on-Trent? — I am a certifying surgeon. I 
 am not in practice ; I confine myself almost entirely 
 'to factory work, and have done for some years. 
 
 6684. Have you had considerable experience of the 
 ailments from whidi the pottery workers suffer ? — ^Tes. 
 
 6685. Have you had cases under your care of potters' 
 asthma? — ^To say under my care would be incorrect. 
 1 saw more of them in my younger days, when my 
 father was alive and was physician at the Infirmary. 
 I saw oases when I was under him, and other cases 
 ■afterwards. My father's book gives you pretty well 
 •everything you want to know on the whole thing. 
 
 6686. Do you consider that potters' asthma is as 
 prevalent now as it used to he ?— Certainly not ; it is 
 ■uncommon mow. And may I say something about 
 
 419 
 
 that ? If you want to find a case now the proper place Mr. J. F. 
 to seek for it would not be amongst tho present-day Arlidge, 
 workers ; it would be amongst workers who have l.k.c.p., 
 worked before the regulations with reference to fans — l.h.c.s. 
 
 in fact, people who worked under very bad hygienic •; 
 
 conditions in older days. I do not think you could ^^ ^^^- ^^^' 
 find many cases among the present generation unless 
 there was consumption with it. 
 
 6687. Do you attribute the diminution in the preva- 
 lence of this complaint to the Homo Office rules ?^ 
 Quite so, and to a great extent with regard to th« 
 improvement in the ventilatioin, etc. 
 
 6688. Do you consider it is easy to diagnose the 
 symptoms of potters' asthma? — It depends upon what 
 is meant by potters' asthma. 
 
 6689. Asthma that arises from employment in the 
 
 D 2 
 
212 
 
 MIN'UTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. F. 
 
 Arlidge, 
 L.R.C.P., 
 L.B.C.S. 
 
 18 Feb. 190 
 
 pottery works 1 — Is that asthma ? Asthma would 
 mean spasmodic attacks of asthma, whereas in the 
 case of potters' asthma there is permanent dyspnoea, 
 and the cough is constant after the earlier stages. 
 How one would differentiate one from the other would 
 be in this way. In the ordinary potters' asthma the 
 early stages of the disease are not noticed with the 
 workman at all. If you ask him if he coughs he will 
 say, " No, I had no cough and never had one " ; but 
 there is just a clearing of the throat in the morning, 
 especially at first, which becomes a little more trouble- 
 some and the same sort of thing happens two or three 
 times a day with a change of atmosphere going out of 
 a hot room. Then there is a difficulty of breathing, and 
 dyspnoea comes on very soon after that. The first 
 complaint a man probably makes is as to difficulty of 
 breathing, and if you say, "Well, do you cough?" he 
 will say, "Yes, a bit, but nothing very jniuch." To,u 
 do not get the same symptoms as you do in consump- 
 tion, where the cough commences early, and you 
 do not get very much dyspnoea in early stages, 
 but you get failing in general health, loss of 
 flesh, and hectic symptoms and, rise of tempera- 
 ture. In potters' asthma you do not get any 
 such symptoms in that stage. Then, with re- 
 ference to any consolidated condition of lung, in con- 
 sumption you would expect to find it at the apex, but 
 in potters' disease you would be more likely 
 to find it at the base of the lung, and if you do find 
 this consolidation, the amount of consolidation found 
 ■would not suggest the amount of dyspnoea they suffer 
 from. The difficulty of breathing is much greater than 
 you would expect to find from the small patches of con- 
 solidation which you would probably get. There is no 
 rise of temperature, no quick pulse, and there is no 
 emaciation as there is in true consumption. Dr. 
 Arlidge in his book deals with the question of bacilli, 
 and he also makes a note, which he specially calls 
 attention to, to enable on© to separate the two- diseajses. 
 The note is : "A diff3rence in the appearance of expec- 
 toration of a purulent character is a feature that 
 separates the dust disease from the tuberculous lung." 
 The expectoration in these cases in the early stages 
 and for some continuous time is whitish marked and 
 streaked with black dtist, whereas in consumption the 
 purulent expectoration comes on much earlier, and the 
 dyspnoea is quite different. The difficulty of breathing 
 and rise of temperature and quick pulse give you a 
 fair* ground for separating the two things, but you 
 are likely to find a debilitated person with hereditary 
 consumption showing a combination of the two, and 
 it would be difficult to diagnose then whether ths per- 
 son was consumptive before starting the work, or 
 whether he was a person liable to anything in ths lung 
 setting it up. 
 
 6690. At certain stages may you get a fibrous lung 
 which is not at all tubercular? — That is so. 
 
 6691. And in those cases questions of consumption 
 do not come in ? — 'No, but they may follow. 
 
 6692. At all events, in the earlier stages of the 
 disease ? — ^No, the question of consumption would not 
 come in there, but anybody to arrive at a decision 
 would have to go through all these points very carefully 
 and very minutely. It is a very easy thing for one 
 man to say it is so and another to say it is not so. 
 
 6693. Do you think there are ever any cases of lung 
 trouble among potters which an expert doctor could 
 definitely say were due to the employment? — ^I think 
 you would get differences of opinion. 
 
 6694. Do you think you would get differences of 
 opinion in every case ? — No, I would not say that. 
 
 6695. Do you think there are any cases in which a 
 man was suffering from lung trouble, the man being 
 employed in pottery works, in which a doctor could 
 definitely say, and all expert doctors would agree, that 
 that man's disease was due to his employment? — ^I 
 think there would be cases, but they would be very 
 few and far between nowadays. 
 
 6696. Do I understand you to say there are very 
 few cases now in which the disease is definitely due to 
 the employment ? — There are few cases now to bg 
 found. Dr. Legge will remember, I think, Dr. Ritchie 
 was sent down by the Home Office, he came with me, 
 and I found out all the suspicious cases in the district 
 I could, and went round with him in order to examine 
 into them. 
 
 6697. (Professor "AnhvU.) During how many years 
 has the improvement continued — 10 years or 20 years ? 
 
 -I should think the most marked improvement has 
 been during the last 10 years. 
 
 '6698. (Chairman.) Do you think there would be 
 danger of malingering if potters' asthma were 
 scheduled as a disease, for which there might be com., 
 pensation? — ^I am afraid there would be claims that 
 the cough was caused by the occupation. 
 
 6699. And then the certifying surgeon -would have 
 to state whether, in his opinion, it was so caused I 
 suppose ? — It would put him in the quandary of oppos- 
 ing the doctor who reported the case. If the certifying 
 Burgeon is to be a sort of judge as to whether- 
 a doctor is right, I am afraid there would be great 
 tronbl«. If a doctor reported a case of a man to the 
 Home Office as suffering from this disease 
 
 6700. But the case would not be reported to the- 
 Home Office ; it would be a claim of the workman 
 against bhe employer, and the workman would come 
 to the certifying surgeon for a certificate that he was 
 suffering from this particular disease ? — There is this 
 difficulty — that at the early stages of this disease they 
 do not recoimise they have got a cough, and that really 
 a case -which might go further on is no more requiring 
 suspension than a case that ought to be suspended at 
 the very start, when there were, I might say, no symp- 
 toms of the disease, and yet one would be suspicious 
 if you could only hear the man say : " I have a little- 
 cough in the morning." You would then examine the 
 lung, but there is no consolidation at that time. 
 
 6701. Is the workman prevented from working?— 
 If he is suspended. 
 
 6702. But is he physically prevented from working?' 
 — No, the physical signs are wanting ; they do not 
 emaciate and lose appetite ; they sleep well, eat well 
 and drink well. ' 
 
 6703. Of course, there would be no claim for com- i 
 pensation unless the man was incapacitated from work- I 
 ing ; it is only when they become incapacitated from i 
 working the question under the Compensation Act ' 
 would arise ? — You mean when they could not work at 
 all, do you? 
 
 6704. Yes?— Then comes the difficulty of a change ~ 
 of occupation. 
 
 6705. In which branches of the trade is potters' ii 
 asthma most likely to occur, if at all ?— I think in the- e 
 case of the biscuit placers ; not so much in the glost .c 
 placers. 
 
 6706. And in any other branch? — ^Yes, the scourers'. 
 There are not many biscuit placers in a factory; I ~ 
 mean definite biscuit placers. 
 
 6707. How many cases a month of pottery workers '', 
 do you see ?— The whole lot combined. I could not tell' :., 
 you without my annual reports. I see about 340' '.' 
 scourers a month. 
 
 6708. (Br. Legge.) You make about 15,000 examina- ' 
 tions in the year, do you not ? — I cannot quite remem- 
 ber. 
 
 6709. (Chairman.) Of the 300 odd scourers whom yom /: 
 see in a month, about how many would you expect to- 
 find showing symptoms, mild or severe, of potters' 
 asthma? — If you ask me those I considered unfit to- 
 work owing to the danger of asthma, then perhaps T 
 could put my hand on half a dozen, but to say that ^ ' 
 any of them absolutely suffer from potters' asthma, I ^^* 
 cannot do so. I could put my finger on some sus- 'E 
 picious cases, and give the names and where the men- ; 
 or women work, but beyond that I should have trouble ij., 
 to find true potters' asthma, except among the older- ]■>,, 
 workers. ^ Some of these so-called scourers are women ' ^ 
 who' are in the scouring shop, and are now emplojfe^ ;"' 
 as what are called emptiers, and, including those, "E Ij^l' 
 might find one or two. ' ,"' 
 
 6710. (Mr. Ounynghame.) From a non-medical point . ,j 
 of view the difference is not very clear, in my mind, 
 between the diseases which are likely to be caused 
 through dust. Six different things occur to me— tuber- 
 culosis, phthisis ?_ Which is virtually the same 
 
 thing. ■^ 
 
 
 6711. Then there is what is called consumption ?- 
 Yes, which is phthisis. 
 
 6712. Tuberculosis is a form of phthisis ?— Yes. 
 
 6713. What is the relationship between bronchitis 
 and asthma and consumption ? Are they mere symi^ 
 toms of the same thing, or are they different diseases! 
 —1 should say bronchitis was a different form to con- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 213 
 
 sumption, to commence with ; then asthma, speaking 
 of potters' asthma, is another form of chest disease. 
 
 6714. So that we have really phthisis, bronchitis, 
 and asthma as three distinctly different things ? — Yes. 
 
 6715. Supposing consumption set up by dust was 
 scheduled, then a person who had bronchitis would 
 not come in under that, would he ? He would be 
 told he had bronchitis and not dust phthisis. How 
 would you answer that ? — The question is whether 
 bronchitis is not set up by dust, too. 
 
 6716. Supposing jou were a doctor, and you were 
 asked whether a case was dust phthisis or not, and 
 you found the case was really dust bronchitis, would 
 yott be atn« to put it down as dust phthisis or not? 
 Would dust phthisis, in your view, cover the other 
 things I have mentioned ? — I do not like the term dust 
 phthisis, because it is difficult to deal with. 
 
 6717. Can you give any short name connected in 
 some way with dust that would cover phthisis, bron- 
 chitis, and asthma? — I do not think the dust sets up 
 tubercular consumption. I do not think it is the right 
 way of putting it. If you use the words dust phthisis, I 
 presume you to mean a lung consolidated from the 
 efieot of the inhalation of dust. Then, if it was a 
 true case of that kind, the symptoms of true phthisis 
 would be wanting ; the fibrous or consolidated lung 
 would be in a different place ; there would not be 
 the emaciation and loss of flesh, and the fever and 
 temperature, and those things would not be the same ; 
 so that if you like to call it dust phthisis, not meaning 
 consumption at all, then dust phthisis will carry it. 
 
 6718. According to you, at all events, then, there are 
 ' two kinds of phthisis, one produced by dust, and the 
 
 dther by other causes ? — If it is to be called phthisis. 
 
 6719. If you do not call it phthisis, would you call 
 it consumption which is set up by dust ? — I should call 
 it fibrosis set up by dust. 
 
 6720. Would dust consumption do as a term ?— Yes. 
 
 I want to keep clear of the word tubercle, because 
 that is hereditary. 
 ^ 6721. So that by dust phthisis would you mean 
 phthisis caused by dust as distinguished from any- 
 thing hereditary ? — Yes. You see, a person who is an 
 emaciated, weak person, who may not have absolute 
 consumption, may go into this work, and if there is 
 any liability of consumption coming on then you get 
 . true consumption by the very fact of working in some 
 •■ occupation which was doing him harm and setting it 
 up. 
 
 6722. The dust, in. fact, would light the fire?— Yes. 
 ' Then I would say that was dust consumption, due to 
 i: the work, the mistake being that the person ever went 
 
 into the work. 
 
 6723. Is it not like a case of discussing on which of 
 • its legs a three-legged stool stands? What is the re- 
 lationship between bronchitis and asthma and dust 
 consumption?— Are you speaking of an ordinary per- 
 son or a person suffering from bronchitis caused by 
 his occupation ? 
 
 6724. Supposing a person had bronchitis set ^ip by 
 dust, would you be able to schedule him under the 
 head of dust phthisis?— It would be very difficult to 
 prove that the bronchitis was set up by the dust. 
 
 6725. But assuming you had succeeded in proving 
 that the bronchitis was set up by dust, could you 
 call that dust phthisis ?— No, I should not. 
 
 6726. If it was asthma, and asthma set up by dust, 
 and you were satisfied the asthma was set up by dust, 
 would you call that dust phthisis ?— Asthma, to my 
 mind, means spasmodic asthma, which comes on m 
 attacks. In these cases asthma is not a form ot spas- 
 modic asthma ; it is a consistent dyspnoea— difficulty 
 in breathing. 
 
 ' 6727. If you were told as a doctor you were to give 
 compensation for dust phthisis, would yo^^ P^* %°^^ 
 a man who had got dust asthma under that head f— i 
 would feel inclined to put down that he had asthma or 
 consolidated lung caused by his work. 
 
 6728. But you would not include them under one 
 head ?— No. 
 
 6729. One head would not be sufficient, in your 
 opinion?— No; I think the three headings would be 
 better. 
 
 6730. Do you say that these cases are somewhat 
 difficult to distinguish from the point of view of dust 
 
 L.K.C.S. 
 
 18 Feb. 1907. 
 
 } 
 I 
 
 .(> 
 «' 
 
 K 
 
 — whether they have been caused by dust or not ? — ■ jif ,._ j_ f\ 
 
 There is a difficulty. Arlidge, 
 
 6731. But not an insuperable one? — No, not neces- Ij.R.c.p., 
 sarily so. You might get a mixed case, and then 
 you would be hopeless. 
 
 6732. But the hopeless and helpless cases would be 
 few and far between, would they not? — I think so. 
 
 6733. So you do not anticipate much difficulty in 
 piuitting down dust phthisis as a thing which could 
 be compensated for ; you do not think it would give 
 the doctors a very difficult task, do you, in the way 
 of distinguishing? — I think sometimes it would be 
 difficult, but sometimes comparatively easy. 
 
 6734. You have told us that there are really very few 
 dust cases to be found nowadays? — Yes. 
 
 6735. In order to form that opinion you must be 
 pretty clear in your mind that it is easy to distin- 
 guish, must you not? — By my constant work amongst 
 the workpeople it might be easy for me, but I am 
 speaking with regard to the general medical practi- 
 tioner who treats a case. I am afraid, in all sorts of 
 chest diseases, they would certify dust from occupa- 
 tion if they were acting in the interests of their 
 patients. 
 
 6736. Do you mean an ordinary practitioner might 
 be in somewhat of a difficulty, but a person who had a 
 real factory experience would not find the same diffi- 
 culty ? — No ; there are times when both perhaps would 
 be puzzled. 
 
 6737. But in the main he would be able to do hig 
 duty, I suppose ? — I think so. I wish to explain that 
 to form a oorreat diagnosis as to whether the parti 
 cular chest complaint was caused by dust in the course 
 of the workma<n's oooupation, it is essential that the 
 medical practitioner shall have exact knowledge of 
 the conditions under which the particular workman 
 worked, and in my case I should be assisted in arriving 
 at my diagnosis by such knowledge, whereas the 
 medical practitioner attending the case would have to 
 depend on the iStatomen/ts of the workman, and would 
 be liable in consequeno3 to arrive at an incorrect 
 diagnosis, and one which would have been quite 
 different had the precise conditions under which the 
 workman worked been 'known to the msdical prac- 
 titioner. 
 
 6738. The only two occupations, apparently, that 
 you think dangerous are those of biscuit placers and 
 scourers ? — Yes. 
 
 6739. I suppose, as to the rest of the pottery work, 
 there are a large number of occupations or processes 
 which could not be described in the least dangerous? 
 — I think so ; of course, you mean from dust ? 
 
 6740. Yes, dust phthisis, bronchitis, or asthma ; all 
 three. Then there is a good deal of the trade not en- 
 gaged in these processes at all, is there ? — Yes. 
 
 6741. And if we took care, I suppose it would not be 
 difficult to pick out the processes in which those risks 
 occur in the pottery trade ?— It would be quite easy to 
 pick them' out. 
 
 6742. Would you pick them out as being biscuit 
 placers or scourers ?— Those would be the two pro- 
 cesses. 
 
 6743. (Chairman.) Do you suggest that in the other 
 processes in the china trade there are no cases at all 
 of lung trouble which have occurred through the em- 
 ployment ?— That is so ; I do not see how they could 
 occur unless the hygienic conditions are bad— bad 
 ventilation or unclean floors. 
 
 6744. [Mr. Cunynghame.) China painters would not 
 come under the category ?— No. 
 
 6745. Do not you think the moulders would — those 
 engaged either at the wheel or in moulding clay? _ Is 
 there not a great deal of dust about in the drying 
 rooms ? — Yes ; but the man moulding clay does not go 
 into the drying rooms for any length of time. 
 
 6746. But the boys who hand the pieces do? — Yes. 
 
 6747. Are you of opinion that the biscuit placers 
 and scourers would really cover the ground?— Yes. 
 There is one other branch I should mention : the old 
 towing, but towing is so absolutely altered to what it 
 used to be. It is done in a different manner ; there 
 are fans for to'sving now. When it was carried on in 
 the old-fashioned way, it was worse than any process, 
 but under the present conditions I doubt if the towers 
 do suffer. 
 
 6748. Do you think towers ought to be included? — 
 
•2U 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 M,: J. F. 
 
 Arlidge, 
 
 L.R.C.P., 
 
 L.R.C.S. 
 
 IS Feb. 1907 
 
 As far as I am concerned, yes ; but the danger is far 
 less than it used to be. 
 
 6749. (Br. Legge.) Is not there an operation known 
 as flint-knocking? — That comes under biscuit placers, 
 but there, again, Mr. Bernard Moore invented a box 
 which kept away the dust from the worker. 
 
 6750. (Professor Allbutt.) Would the fact that you 
 are not in practice make any difference to your ex- 
 perience, do you think, or would as many cases of 
 complaint come under your notice still ? — ^Yes, I think 
 so. 
 
 6751. Is it not possible that many complaining or 
 ailing persons might escape your notice? — That is so, 
 unless they are in the particular department of scour- 
 ing, where they cannot escape, because they are ex- 
 amined every month. 
 
 6752. Do you think the Committee ought to make 
 some subtraction from your evidence on that account, 
 and that there may be cases of dust disease where the 
 people do not consult you ? — Quite so ; there may be 
 several. 
 
 6753. And there may be medical men in active prac- 
 tice who would be likely to see more cases than you 
 do? — ^Yes, far more likely, unless they happen to be 
 scourers. Scourers I examine every month, and the 
 raioment I have suspicions I examine them in detail. 
 I have a large number of scourers under my super- 
 vision compared with other districts. 
 
 6754. Is there any undue tendency ordinarily to 
 tuberculous consumption in the potteries amongst 
 potters ? — I have no statistics. I do not come across 
 many in the works. I examine a large number of men 
 and women, but I do not come across many cases of 
 phthisis. 
 
 6755. Tuberculous consumption is not unduly pre- 
 valent amongst potters, you think? — ^Not at the pre- 
 sent time ; it used to be terribly so. 
 
 6756. Then there is the difficulty as to the 
 different names used. I rather agree with you 
 that the word asthma, although a popular phrase, 
 would be better disused in this connection. You 
 see no objection to the use of the word phthisis, as 
 merely meaning chronic lung disease, but your point 
 is, _ .there is no emaciation ; it is rather difficult, 
 is it not, to find a common word which would cover 
 everything? — Yes. My impression is that the dust 
 causes a form of bronchitis. 
 
 6757. I want to be clear whether we might use, even 
 in the schedule, such a term as dust phthisis. If I 
 use the words dust phthisis, I do not necessarily infer 
 tubercle. Do you agree with that? — ^Yes. 
 
 6758. Are the potters who are subject to dust in- 
 halation in fixed attitudes ?= — No. 
 
 6759. Do the biscuit placers move about at their 
 work ? — ^More or less, yes. 
 
 6760. Does that fix the chest in any rigid position. 
 A grinder, for instance, is in a fixed position, and it 
 has been alleged that in that way he may fix his chest 
 and make it so rigid that he cannot draw a deep in- 
 spiration ? — I do not think that would apply in any of 
 our particular branches. 
 
 6761. Have you seen in your experience of true dust 
 phthisis anything to lead you to suppose that the atti- 
 tude of the worker had an important bearing? — No. 
 
 6762. As regards the diseases you have spoken of, 
 chronic bronchitis as the result of dust, I understand, 
 is simply a later stage of that incipient condition you 
 spoke of, in which the patient does not realise that he 
 is ill at all ? — Yes ; but with some of these people who 
 have bronchitis, I am speaking of bronchitis without 
 consolidation, is inappreciable to auscultation. 
 
 6763. With regard to the presence of tubercle, the 
 Committee have been told by all the vritnesses so lar 
 that tubercle is apt to appear as 'an incident in the 
 later stage, even of true dust phthisis. Do you agree? 
 — Quite so ; it may appear, but it does not necessarily 
 appear. 
 
 6764. Would you agree that if in the later stages 
 tubercle bacUli were found in the sputum it would 
 not neoeesarily take the case out of the category of dust 
 phthisis? — That is where the difficulty comes in. 
 
 6765. Supposing, from your knowledge or informa- 
 tion given you, you had arrived .at the conclusion that 
 the complaint was dust phthisis, and yet that tubercle 
 bacilli was found in the sputum, would the discovery 
 ■of these bacilli at a late stage of the disease Justify you 
 
 in removing it from the category of dust phthisis into 
 that of ordinary tubercular coiisumption ? — Probably 
 not. 
 
 6766. There is, however, a very large debatable 
 ground between the two extremes, is there not?— Yes. 
 such an irritant as dust ? — Yes. 
 
 6767. A person might have a latent susceptibility 
 which, apart from his work, might never have come 
 out, but which does come out when he is exposed to 
 such an irrittant as dust ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6768. Is there any undue prevalence of consumption 
 primarily to tubercular araiong these people? — ^At the 
 present time I should say not. It used to be so; 
 there used to be a tremendous amount, but there, 
 again, everybody was classed as a potter in the 
 Ilegistrar-Greneral's Returns — a painter, a flint man, 
 a man who worked in the clay — ^all were potters ; any- 
 one who died in the place was put down potter, so 
 that the use of the word " potter" put these statistics 
 hopelessly wrong. If the Regisifcrar returns a gilder, 
 a young girl of 17 or 18, as a potter, down the com- 
 plaint goes as potters' asthma. 
 
 6769. Supposing there were a special referee ap- 
 pointed who had given attention to these diseases, and 
 that he was provided with the complete history of every 
 case and the symptoms and signs up to date, might he 
 then in a substantial number of cases come to just con- 
 clusions ?-^I think he would. Do you mean that such a 
 special referee would have a report from the patient's 
 own doctor and the certifying surgeon? 
 
 6770. He would have all the information he called 
 for, so far as it was possible to get it. I do not quite 
 see your difficulty about malingering. Do you think 
 the kind of cough which you spoke of would be com- 
 mon also among those who drink too much ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6771. So that there might be difficulty there, might 
 there not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6772. But only a preliminary difficulty, I suppose, 
 and easily discounted ? — Yes. As was pointed out, 
 a man would not get compensation unless he was 
 unable to work, but he ought to be stopped from that 
 work at the very earlisst stage. 
 
 6773. (Chairman.) A man whom you thought was 
 not reaUy incapacitated' from work, but showed pre- 
 liminary symptoms of lung disease ought, in your 
 opinion, to be suspended, ought he? — ^Yes, suspended 
 from that class of work. 
 
 6774. But then, as a matter of fact, his employer, 
 if he were liable to pay compensation if the man were 
 idle, would in practice give him employment in some 
 other branch which it would be quite safe for him to 
 work in ? — He would offer it to him. 
 
 6775. Then, the man would not get compensation if 
 he w>3re offered suitable employment, and refused it ?— 
 That should be so. 
 
 6776. There are many branches of the pottery trade 
 which would be quite safe for a worker who had these 
 preliminary lung symptoms, are there? — ^Yes, thsre 
 are other branches. 
 
 6777. Would it be possible for an employer, if a 
 particular workman was suspended owing to pre- 
 liminary lung symptoms, to give him employment in 
 somrs other branch ? — ^In a factory, I doubt it. 
 
 6778. Why? — ^Because the man has to learn a fresh 
 trade. A man who has been brought up as a placer 
 is a skilled workman, and is getting a good wage. A 
 master can say, " The doctor says you are not fit to 
 go on placing ovfing to lung trouble, and I offer you 
 another job," but' what is that job to be, I cannot 
 suggest one myself. 
 
 6779. Do you have cases now in which you suspend 
 men on account of lung troubles ? — No. 
 
 6780. (Dr. Legge.) They are women who do this kind 
 of work, are they not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6781. Do the special rules empower you to suspend 
 a Woman who is suffering or is likely to suffer from 
 chest trouble during employment ?— I do not think it 
 says, "Likely to suffer" in the Act; it is, "If they 
 suffer." 
 
 6782. Do you, as a matter of fact, suspend any 
 women on that ground? — ^I have not the last year. I 
 did one the year before, I think. I have suspended 
 one or two temporarily with bad bronchial colds and 
 difficulty of breathing, but I have seen them again, and 
 they have been all right, and it has been a temporary 
 thing. I have not suspended any for dust phthisis. 
 
DEPAKTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES, 
 
 215 
 
 6783. For how long a period have you suspended any 
 one?— I do not know when the Act first came into 
 force, but I have suspended them for bronchial 
 troublss. 
 
 6784. Since 1898, I think, you have examined them ? 
 — Yes, I have. * 
 
 6785. (Chairman.) Do you consider that there are 
 any workers now at work who, while it would' not be 
 right to suspend them, do incur some risk of contracting 
 lung disease ? — Yes, there are. 
 
 6786. If those workers could claim compensation 
 under the Workmen's Compensation Act, would the 
 certifying surgeon in some instances be more ready to 
 issue certificates of suspension ? — I should myself, but 
 I cannot send a man or a woman to the workhouse il 
 I can help it. 
 
 6737. (ProfessorAllhuH.) It would not be difficult, 
 would it, to distinguish those cases from mia- 
 lingerers? — ^I think it would be troublesome at 
 times. You see, if they know that if they went to the 
 doctor and said, " My cough is beginning to get worse, 
 I am beginning to get restless and cannot sleep at 
 night,'' and you examine them and find the bronchial 
 condition, you could not do anything elss but suspend 
 them. Of course, temporary suspension might meet 
 the case in some cases, but I am certain there would 
 be trouble. 
 
 6788. (Br. Legge.) Do I gather from you if a person 
 was found to be undoubtedly suffering from patters' 
 asthma, they should be permanently suspended? — ^Yes. 
 
 6789. So that it would not be a temporary suspen- 
 sion from this work, but a permanent suspension? — 
 Yes, but one ought to have the power to temporarily 
 suspend, because a person suffering from a, bronchial 
 cold is not fit to work in dust. 
 
 6790. {Professor Allbutt.) Would you be in favour 
 of suspension for the sake of diagnosis? — ^Yes. 
 
 6791. (Br. Legge.) Do you -think that apart from tha 
 gradual onset of this diseaee the dust in potteries can 
 actually set up acute bronchial catarrh ? — I do not in 
 potteries. 
 
 6792. Under those circumstances, do you see how a 
 temporary suspension could be of any use. If acute 
 bronchial catarrh cannot be set up by dust, although 
 suspsnsion may be desirable, do you see how compen- 
 sation could be refused ? — ^I do not see how you could 
 give compensation for that ; if they present themselves 
 suffering from a bronchial cold, I do not see, though 
 you suspend them, that they ought to have compensa- 
 tion for something caught outside the works. 
 
 6793. You say, I understand, that the disease, once 
 started, is almost certain to progress? — ^Yes. 
 
 6794. But that is only if they continue at work, I 
 suppose ? — ^Exactly. If you take them out early enough 
 there is hope, but if you allow them to go on and 
 allow a fibrous condition to ensue, then, I think, it 
 will progress. 
 
 6795. Do you know of any case in iihe potteries where 
 there has been a suspicion of a fibroid condition, and 
 upon ceasing work there has been permanent improve- 
 ment? — ^No, I do not know of a case. I heard of such 
 a case the other day, but the jierson was dead and 
 buried, and I could not investigate it. 
 
 6796. Is it your opinion that a person's life would 
 be considerably prolonged by cessation from this work ? 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 6797. (Professor Allhutt.) Even with things as they 
 are? — Yes, if taken at the early stages. 
 
 6798. (Br. Legge.) You examine, do you not, some- 
 thing like 95 per cent, of all the china scourers in this 
 district? — ^I could not tell you how many scourers 
 there are. 
 
 6799. The china industry is confined practically to 
 Longton, Fenton and' Stoke, is it not ? — I do not know 
 other factories outside. 
 
 6800. If there were many you would know of them, 
 would you not ? — I have no means of knowing. 
 
 6801. I mean from general knowledge? — I do not 
 know anything about the outside districts of Burslem 
 and Tunstall. If you were to ask me what sort of 
 manufactories there are I could not tell you, except 
 that I have always heard it stated I see more scourers 
 than anybody else in this elistrict. 
 
 6802. If I wens to tell you that none of the other 
 
 certifying surgeons saw more than 20 or 30 scourers, Mr. J F 
 
 what would you say ? — I did not know it. Arlidge, 
 
 6803. Is Longton the principal centre for china l.e.c.p., 
 works ?— Yes. L. R. c. s. 
 
 6804. Do you know this report on the incidence of 18 Feb. 1907. 
 
 phthisis and respiratory diseases on female china 
 
 scourers in Longton, in which the death rate given fox 
 
 1896 for the total population is 4.261, and aanong 
 china scourers 75; in 18S7, 4.640 and 68.965 respec- 
 tively; and in 1898, 5.492 and 75?— I have not seen 
 the report before. 
 
 6805. Would your evidence go to show that such a 
 condition of things as that existed mow? — I do not 
 think it does exist now, and there are other things to 
 be taken into consideration as regards the scourers. 
 
 6806. If this death rate was going on in the years 
 1896, 1897, and 1898, how can it be so suddenly im- 
 proved by the provision of fans, because the poe^xist 
 ing conditions must have affected the' workers, and if 
 the disease were a progressive one, as you say, and 
 they continued at the work, one would expect to find 
 increased mortality ; can you give us any reason ? — 
 No. The conditions under which the scourers work is 
 greatly improved — by means of fans, etc. 
 
 6807. These china scourers drop out of employment, 
 I suppose? — Yes. 
 
 6808. Do you inquire into that? — ^Yes, I always in- 
 quire if I miss one. 
 
 6809. Have you any evidence on that point ?- 
 I have known one or two die. 
 
 -No, 
 
 6810. You referred to an investigation made by Dr. 
 Ritchie. Did he examine the china scourers and bis- 
 cuit placers ? — ^No, the china scourers. 
 
 6811. With a view to the condition of their lungs ? — 
 He had' them into the place and examined them him- 
 self, and there were one or two things he called my 
 attention to. 
 
 6812. Did he examine to see whether there were 
 tubercle baccilli in the sputum ? — ^No, not while he was 
 with me. 
 
 6813. You never heard whether he found tubercle 
 bacilli, did you ? — No ; I was asked to collect some sus- 
 picious cases for him, and I gave him all the cases 
 in which the word "cough" was written opposite 
 the name in my books. 
 
 6814. Do you say the symptoms which are described 
 as typical of phthisis are the same as those of potters* 
 asthma, I mean as regards the absence of hi^ tem- 
 perature and absence of night sweats? — ^You do not 
 get them in so-called potters' asthma unless you get 
 consumption in the background. 
 
 6815. Do you find that condition existing, even with 
 tubercle bacilli present?- — I have not seen a case of 
 the sort that I could put my hand on or recall to my 
 memory lately. I saw them at the infirmary years 
 ago. 
 
 6816. Were those cases of definite tubercular infec- 
 tion on the top of a fibroid condition without high 
 temperature or fluctuating temperature ? — (But I think 
 you would get high tem,perature if you had a tuber- 
 culous condition. I cannot answer your question 
 definitely. 
 
 6817. (Chairman.) Can you give the Committee any 
 information about eczema in colour blowing? — I saw 
 three cases, I think about a year ago, and they were 
 the first I saw, and I came to the conclusion that it 
 was not from the colour or dust, but from some 
 turpentine substitute or cheap turpentine the workers 
 were using. 
 
 6818. Is the use of this turpentine new?— The use 
 of this particular class of turpentine was quite new 
 to me. I wrote to Dr. Legge and pointed the cases out 
 to him, and he came and saw them. I do not think 
 they had anything to do with the colour. 
 
 6819. Is the eczema bad enough to incapacitate the 
 person from working? — Yes, the hands split all open 
 like an extremely badly chapped hand with deep 
 gashes, and they are a shocking sight. 
 
 6820. How long does it take a person to recover 
 frtom it ? — Some weeks. 
 
 6821. In the meantime what do they do ? — They do 
 other work. These persons put ointment on the hands, 
 wore gloves, and did some other work about the 
 place. I suspended them from doing the particular 
 i\ork they were engaged in. 
 
216 
 
 M1^TUTES OF EVIDEXC'E 
 
 Mr. J. F. 
 Ar/idge, 
 
 L.It.C.P., 
 L.K.C.S. 
 
 18 Feb. 1907, 
 
 6822. (Mr. Cunymihame.) "Was that in the case of 
 one or two firms only, or a lot? — Only two firms. 
 
 6823. Is not that rather a disease due to some firm 
 using an improper ingredient on a particular occasion, 
 and not an industrial disease? — That is so. I was 
 told the reason they were using it was that it was 
 cheaper. 
 
 6824. Do you know what it was ? — No, I know nothing 
 about it. 
 
 6825. (Dr. Legge.) In some of the cases you have 
 seen the symptoms have lasted a year, have they not ? 
 — Do you mean amongst the scourers ? 
 
 6826. I mean this eczema? — ^No, the cases I have in 
 my mind now got well in a month or so. 
 
 6827. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Did the firms still con- 
 tinue to use the stufi ? — ^No ; at least I could not tell 
 you they are not using it, but I have had no more 
 
 cases lately. One case was at Fenton and the other 
 at Longton. 
 
 6828. (Dr. Legge.) Would there be any difficulty ift- 
 showing that the eczema was due to the occupation ? — 
 I do not think it was due to the oocupatiom as blower 
 (that is the colour), biiit to turpentine substitute. 
 
 5829. But it •w.as due to one of the materialsi that was 
 being used ? — Yes. 
 
 6830. Would it be difficult then for them to prove 
 that it was due to the occupation ?— Naturally they 
 could easily piov© it was due to the turpentine sub- 
 stitute, because as soon las they were taiken away from 
 thait ■particular stuff tJiey got better — ^that is, >a dif- 
 ferent form of turpentine was used or water. 
 
 6831. Have you come across any cases of eczema 
 amongst fritters, or heard of them, due to fine dust? — 
 No, I do not think so among fritters. Fritting is 
 only done once in six months, or once in a year ; 
 at many of the factories they do not frit at all. 
 
 Mr. A. M. McAldowie, ii.n., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. A. M. 6832. (Chairman.) Have you been for a number of 
 McAldowie, years in practice, in the pottery district? — For about 
 M.D. thirty years. 
 
 6833. Have you been also resident physician to 
 the North StaHordshire Infirmary? — Yes, for about 
 three and a half years. 
 
 6834. Are you still physician there? — I am consult- 
 ing physician. I have also' been honorary physician 
 for seventeen years. 
 
 6835. Have you held public appointments as medi- 
 cal officer of health ?— Yes, deputy and parish, medical 
 officer for eleven years from 1880 to 1891 at Stoke-on- 
 Trent. 
 
 5836. For twenty-six years have you been medical 
 officer to the North Staffordsliire Provident Institu- 
 tion ? — 1 have ; that is the largest friendly society in 
 the district! 
 
 6837. So that you have had a very wide land long 
 experience of diseases from which pottery workers 
 suffer, have you not? — I have. 
 
 6838. Do you consider that any form of asthma, 
 bronchitis, or lung trouble is specially prevalent 
 -amongst this class of workers? — Undoubtedlyi and 
 due to their occupation. 
 
 6839. How would you describe these ailments from 
 which they suffer? How would you name them?— 
 Technically fibroid disease of the lungs ; locally it 
 is known as potters' asthma or potters' rot. 
 
 6840. Is there also any special form of bronchitis 
 from which they suffer? — In the initial stages there 
 is bronchitis. 
 
 6841. Is it due to- dust ? — It is due to dust. 
 
 6842. Does this disease appear only amongst workers 
 engaged in certain processes in the potteries ? — Yes, in 
 the dusty processes. 
 
 6843. Which processes are those? — There are the 
 throwers in clay, the hollow-ware pressors, the flat 
 pressors, Eind the turners — that is, the cleaners of the 
 ware. 
 
 6844. Are those the scourers ? — No ; the scourers 
 come afterwards. 
 
 6845. Are they liable to these diseases? — Yes, most 
 of all ; after the stuff has been fired once, and it 
 injures them more. 
 
 5846. And the biscuit placers ? — ^And the biscuit 
 placers, yes. 
 
 6847. Is it, in your opinion, easy or possible to 
 diagnose the forms of lung disease which are due to 
 dust and differentiate them from lung diseases which 
 are due to other causes % — ^In the early stages it would 
 be rather difficult. A typical case would be easily 
 diagnosed, but there are certain cases in which it 
 would be difficult to differsntiate and say how much 
 was due to dust and how much was due to ordinary 
 catarrh. 
 
 5848. Do you consider that an expert medical man, 
 who had had long experience of these diseases, would 
 be able to say in any given case, if he knew its history, 
 whether the disease was or was not due to the employ- 
 ment ? — Yes ; I think I myself could tell in any case 
 whether it was due to dust or to ordinary disease, and 
 
 any medical man who has been some time in the 
 potteries could tell. 
 
 6849. What would you say were the symptoms that 
 differentiated the forms of disease due tO' dust from 
 those due to other causes? — The special symptom is 
 that the breathlessness is out of all proportion to the 
 amount of cough and the amount of tissue destruction 
 which you get by physical signs. 
 
 6850. Do you mean the breathlessness is much 
 greater? — Yes, much greater. 
 
 6851. Are there any other symptoms which would 
 enable you to distinguish? — ^From the anaemia which 
 is invariably present, and the physical aspect of the 
 man, you can see that he has been in a hot and dusty 
 atmosphere for some time. 
 
 6852. (Professor Allhutt.) Will you am.plify that 
 a little ? — Especially aneemia, and also the signs 
 on his hands of his occupation. 
 
 6853. (Chairman.) Do you consider there are many 
 potters now at work who are suffering from the initial 
 stages of these diseases, and who ought, in their own 
 interests, really to be kept away from it ? — All potters 
 suffer more or less from the dust, or those engaged 
 in' those particular processes I have named. The 
 later stage of the disease is this : We get signs of 
 malnutrition and signs of constriction of the bron- 
 chial tubes from the disease having progressed. Then 
 we get black spit, which is due to the dust and tlie 
 breaking down of the lung, and in some cases, which 
 are rare now, we get dulness on percussion over the 
 back of the lung. Those are the signs of the actual 
 disease when it has been confirmed. 
 
 6854. Do you come across many cases at the present 
 time of workers in an advanced stage of the disease ? — 
 The disease is getting now of a much less virulent 
 type ; it has entirely changed its type during the last 
 ten or fifteen years. We used to have huge masses of 
 hard or condensed lung, and practically the upper half 
 of both lungs would be quite destroyed. Now it is 
 getting more diffused and not so concentrated. 
 
 6855. But you still get cases of the disease, do you? 
 ■ — ^We get cases of m^or© general fibroid condition, not 
 so concentrated, but diffused through the whole organ. 
 
 5856. Do you get many such cases ? — ^Yes, practically 
 every old potter has fibroid lung to a certain extent. 
 
 6857. Do you attribute that to the conditions under 
 which they are working now or to the conditions under 
 which they were working earlier in life? — The condi- 
 tions at present. 
 
 6858. So that you think any young worker going 
 into the trade now when he gets old would be liable to 
 fibrosis of the lung, do you ? — Yes, he will get a certain 
 amount of fiibroid lung from, the dust and. hot atmo- 
 sphere. 
 
 6859. Would that amount of fibrosis incapacitate 
 them from working ? — No ; they could go on for many 
 years — ^until after middle age. 
 
 6860. And might even die of old age? — ^And might 
 even die of old age. 
 
 6861. Do you get many cases now which go to s 
 further and graver stage of the disease? — No, I think 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 217 
 
 that-is practically stopped ; the conditions which we 
 used to get twenty years ago I have not seen lately. 
 
 6862. So you do not come across any cases now of 
 men prevented from working from fibrosis of the lung ? 
 — They are prevented from working, but it is not of 
 «ttch a virulent type. ^ 
 
 6863. But still they are prevented from working, 
 *re they? — ^When they get old. 
 
 ■6864. Are they prevented by the weakness that 
 <!omes from old age, combined with the fibrosis, ur is 
 it the fibrosis that is the real cause of their incapacity ? 
 — It is principally old age, but they are not a long- 
 lived race ; working in the hot shops and working in 
 dust combined makes them short-lived. 
 
 6865. Do you consider that fibrosis of the lung is 
 contracted to a greater degree by persons who suiter 
 from constitutional weakness or people given to intem- 
 perance ? — ^No. 
 
 6866. Do you consider th"? dust is a cause in itself? 
 — It is a cause in itself. 
 
 6867. Do you think that a worker who is given to 
 alcoholism is any more susceptible than any other 
 worker? — ^Not to be attacked by it. Of course, if he 
 was attacked by it he would succumb very rapidly, 
 and probalbly get tuberculosis and pneumonia more 
 quickly, but an intemperate man, or one with phthisi- 
 cal tendency, would not contract the disease more 
 readily than another. 
 
 6868. Do I understand you to say that there are a 
 very large proportion of the men engaged in these 
 processes who are at work although they have a cer- 
 tain degree of fibrosis of the lung ? — Yes, a great many. 
 
 6869. If fibrosis of the lung were made a subject of 
 compensation under the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act, do you think it likely that these men, or any of 
 them, would declare themselves to be incapacitated 
 from working and claim compensation ? — I think so. 
 I think many work now who probably, if they had com- 
 pensation in addition to their club money, would re- 
 main at home ; but I may say that the men now go to 
 work with very advanced lung disease, and they seem 
 to like to go to work. It is an interesting work ; the 
 shop is warm, and they are more comfortable there 
 than they are at home. My experience has been, in 
 mfimy cases wihioh I have wanted to keep at home in 
 "inclement weather, that they prefer to go to work, and 
 I have allowed them to do it, because it does not 
 ■shorten their lives, and they are more comfortable 
 than at home. Of course, some, if receiving additional 
 «ompensation, would leave off work sooner than they 
 ■do now. 
 
 6870. You say it does not shorten their lives, but 
 if at a comparatively early stage they were taken 
 away from the process and put to some other work, 
 would not the lung trouble be arrested and their lives 
 he lengthened? — It would be arrested, but it would 
 still be there ; it is incurable, once the tissue is in 
 a fibroid condition or does not heal. 
 
 6871. If a worker is engaged in a dangerous process, 
 ■does not the fibrosis get worse and worse as the years 
 .■go on ? — Yes ; but if the fibrosis was there it would 
 also get worse and worse with advancing age. 
 
 6872. Supposing you have two men aged 40, both 
 with some symptoms of fibrosis, both engaged in china 
 scouring, but one of them remained a china scourer 
 and the other became a farmer, would you say that 
 the probabilities are, taking it hypothetically, that 
 they would both die at the same time, or that the 
 farmer would live longer ? — I think, if I were a china 
 scourer, I would remain at my work. I think if you 
 were to make him a farmer he would probably suc- 
 ■cumb to some other lung disease. I think one would 
 live as long as the other. The farmer would probably 
 ■contract bronchitis, as he could not stand cold, be- 
 ■cause he has been accustomed to a confined hot place. 
 
 6873. Suppose he were put into some other branch 
 •of the pottery trade, in which there is no dust, would 
 you say that his fibrosis would progress at the same 
 Tate as that of a man who remained a china scourer ? — 
 Perhaps it would not, but practically a doctor would 
 "find fibrosis in every potter after the age of 40, and it 
 ■would be difiicult to find other employment. 
 
 6874. But not enough fibrosis to incapacitate him 1 
 —Not enough to incapacitate him. 
 
 6875. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Apparently you do not 
 seem to think that the amount of phthisis is very bad 
 
 419 
 
 amongst potters at present?— Not tuberculosis, but Mr A M 
 
 fil'rosis. McAldowie, 
 
 6876. There is a good deal of it about, but it does '^'•P- 
 not seem to be a very formidable disease at present, I jg j-g,, iggy 
 gather from your evidence? — Not so bad as it was ; it — _' " 
 is less from year to year with improved processes for 
 
 taking away dust. 
 
 6877. If the course of the disease and occupation is 
 as you have described it, where does the compensation 
 OT the right to compensation come in ? Of course, com- 
 pensation is not for catching the disease ; compensa- 
 tion is for preventing a man earning wages. From 
 that point of view, where does the compensation come 
 in ? You are not compensating a man for being ill or 
 uncomfortable, but for loss of power to earn wages ; 
 and, supposing you put it from that point of view, 
 where does it come in? — During the last few years of 
 a potter's life, after middle age, in the winter time he 
 is usually laid up in inclement weather for some weeks, 
 then he is better in the summer and goes back to 
 work ; after that he gets worse and gives up alto- 
 gether. 
 
 6878. So that it is partial incapacity during the 
 later years of a man's life — that is where the incapa- 
 city to earn wages comes in, is it ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6879. You said something about being in hot rooms. 
 Do you find people are incapacitated who are not en- 
 gaged in trades which are dusty trades, as well aa 
 those who are? Do you find that people who are not 
 engaged in dusty occupations also have the incapacity 
 of which you speak during their later years, especially 
 in the winter? — They get bronchitis also, but not in 
 that special fibroid form. 
 
 6880. But are they equally incapacitated? — ^They do 
 get incapacitated. 
 
 6881. Even without the dust? — Even without the 
 dust. 
 
 6882. Do you put that down to the heat of the rooms 
 in which they are employed? — Yes, and also to tne 
 hot rooms at home ; living in a hot room during the 
 day, they have huge fires in their housesi at home, and 
 kftep the windows shut ; they seem to be afraid of fresh 
 air. 
 
 6883. So that phthisis, too, is aggravated to a cer- 
 tain extent by the pecular habits of the men, is it? — 
 That is so. 
 
 6884. It makes it difficult to distinguish, does it not? 
 —Yes. 
 
 6885. {Professor Allbutt.) But you are prepared, I 
 understand, to distinguish between the two. Sup- 
 posing a case is referred to you, you would be able 
 to distinguish between a person who had ordinary 
 bronchitis from common causes and a person who had 
 the special form, of bronciho-pneumonia caused by 
 dust ?— Yes. 
 
 6886. So that in this sense the difficulty would be 
 less, would it not ? — Yes. 
 
 6887. Do you think you could judge if a man is 
 incapacitated when he tells you he is ? — Yes. Of 
 course, there is a personal element, and what would 
 incapacitate one man would not incapacitate another. 
 
 6888. But, generally speaking, you would be able 
 to come to a decision if you were acting as a referee in 
 such a case? — Yes. 
 
 6889. As regards recovery on removal from the dust, 
 if a man had been exposed, say, for five years to the 
 dust he would have a certain amount of fibrosis, and 
 there are generally nodules scattered within the lungs, 
 are there not? — ^Yes. 
 
 6890. And you and I may suspect, without know- 
 ing it very definitely, that when scattered foci of this 
 kind are" established they may slowly increase? — 
 Quite so. 
 
 6891. So that if a man goes on five or ten years 
 longer he would have much larger fibrous tracts, would 
 he not ? — Yes. 
 
 6892. And therefore there would be a much larger 
 area for the deteriorating process to go on in Qie 
 afieoted lung? — Yes, it sets up progressive changes 
 from the very first. 
 
 6893. A man's prospects must be better in the case 
 of chronic deterioration the fewer the centres of dis- 
 ease, I suppose? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 6894. Do you know of any individual man who has 
 
 2 E 
 
218 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. M. 
 MeAldoxeia, 
 
 M.D. 
 
 18 Feb. 1907. 
 
 changed. his employ ment so as. ta be able toi declare 
 how the experiment ended? — No. 
 
 6895. You-would agree with mejl suppose, the less a 
 man has of the disease the .better, his chance, and if 
 he has been five years at work the less disease he has 
 than a man who. has been 10 or 12 years at work? — 
 Yes. 
 
 6896. Has sputum been examined inyour experience 
 ini these cases ? — Yes. 
 
 6897. And do you find ■ grit in the sputum^— Yes, 
 and also the colouring matter like blood. 
 
 6898. If, in the later stages, of the. disease of this 
 kind, tubercle supervenes, it does not remove it, does 
 it, from the category of dust disease ?'— Quite so. 
 
 6899. Even although tubercle might spring up later ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 6900. You would still decide that the case was one 
 of dust phthisis, would you ? — Yes. 
 
 . 6901. In your experience- of, .cases of. dust, .phthisis 
 firmly established, and tubercle supervening upon it,, 
 does, the tubercle make any grave alteration in the 
 man's constitution, or would he be more or less pro- 
 tected by the preceding fibrous process from' fever and 
 emaciation ? — No ; I think the supervention of tubercle 
 is really moire rapid in a.po'tfcer than in an ordinary 
 individual. 
 
 6902. It is even a graArer thing, is it? — Yes, it is a 
 graver thing. 
 
 6903. It is a way in which a man might be carried 
 off;, in fact, is it? — It is. the way in which they, are 
 carried off. 
 
 ,6904. P9_you consider that tuberculous phthisis is 
 more prevalent amongst potters than amongst the 
 general public ? — I do not think so. I have gone into 
 the question carefully with the Medical Ofiicer of 
 Health, and I find it is not a common kind of disease 
 in the potteries. ' Staffordshire is one: of the. three 
 bsst counties in England in that respect. 
 
 6905. Then, you would not expect, if you were a 
 re'eree, to be embarrassed by an undue proportion of 
 the disease ? — No. 
 
 6906. (Dr. Leg^e.) You said that when tubercle 
 supervened, the constitutional symptoms became graver 
 than the ordinary tubercle? — That is my experience. 
 My experience is that they have gone off more rapidly 
 than in the case of an ordinary individual. 
 
 6907. But, as regard's the precise symptoms present 
 before tubercle supervenes, the tem.perature has not 
 fluctuated, has it? — No. 
 
 6908. When tubercle supervenes, do all those symp- 
 toms show themselves ? — They do. 
 
 6909. In the early stage of working in .a dusty ocou- 
 
 patif)n do; you, get aoute oases -at tub^rffuIasis-.-set up,^ : 
 m y.Qur , opinion , . by the dust ? — In a .yQung. patter, , 
 with tubercular disease, you do not generally fin^ 
 any symptoms. 
 
 6910. And, therefore, if a person, say, a biscuit 
 placer, after five years' work, were to die from aoutet 
 tuberculosis, would you say that that had any con- 
 nection with his employment ? — I should not. 
 
 6911. (Ghairman,) Have you. had your attentioi* 
 callsd to the statistics of the. North .Staffordshire , 
 Infirmary with reference -to the number ef .cases of . 
 potters' asthma ,?^-YeSi some time ago, but n©t lately, 
 
 6912. Do you think, that the tabulation 6f case* 
 under the various heads is made with absolutj- 
 accuracy, or do you think that there are a certain 
 number of doubtful cases in each category ?-i-The housa 
 physician 'draws up the-' tables, and-' as ' the house 
 physician changes every two years and' comes fresh to 
 the district, often -for the first few months ho is there- 
 he would probably not put one dowit- as, havangipotters'. . 
 a'thma, until he had . become . acquainted with th* 
 disease. 
 
 6913. If the tables showed a phenomenal decrease-ia ' 
 the number of' cases of potters'' asthma within the last 
 10 years, should you say that decrease was a real de- • 
 crease or that it might be merely a " statistical de- 
 crease"?— I should say that- probably they would have- 
 adopted a different term for the same thing — for in- 
 stance, called it fibrosis, when before if was callecl 
 poitters' asthma. 
 
 6914. Cases of potters' asthma, which would very- 
 likely have been tabulated 10 years ago under that- 
 heading, would now be tabulated as ; some other fornt 
 of asthma, or something else, I suppose? — Yes; pro- 
 bably fibrosis. 
 
 6915. They would not be likely to be mixed- up with. 
 the cases of ordinary asthma ? — ^No. 
 
 6916. (Professor Allbuit.) You said that from your 
 experience you could generally decide ■ fairly when 
 a man was incapacitated from work or not, and 
 you say in your precis : " After middle life practically 
 every operative in a dusty process has sufficient fibroid 
 changes in the lungs to enable him to claim compensa- 
 tion." But if he claimed cfflmpensation he would com& 
 under someone like yourself, for instance, who has had 
 experience in these cases, I suppose? — I omitted to 
 say unless some standard' was adopted there would be 
 some variations from the ordinary typ? of potters' 
 asthma, but it would not be sufficient to incapacitate 
 him. 
 
 6917'.- A physician of your experience would not find 
 much difficulty in distinguishing between- the casci,^ 
 would he ? — No. 
 
 Mr. ''Wir.LiAM BuRTOif, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. 6918. (Chairman.) Aro you attending here as the 
 Burton. representative of the Pottery Manufacturers' Assosia- 
 tion? — That is so. 
 
 .6919. Are you able to give the Committee evidence 
 on. the question of pottjrs', asthma? — Yes. 
 
 6920. Have you been connected with the pottery in- 
 dustry for a great many years ? — For 20 years. 
 
 6921. Do you find during that period that the disease 
 has changed in prevalence ? — Undoubtedly, that is my 
 firm impression. When I first went to NVedgwood's, 20 
 years ago, a very old-established place, where families 
 have worked generation aft3r generation, and where 
 oiie finds consequently the sort of evidence you can- 
 not find elsewhere — the. old men spoke a great deal 
 about potters' asthma, but said then how much 
 less prevalent it was than when they were young— and 
 asi I have seen fresh generations- come on I have seen 
 singularly less pottsrs' asthma, speaking in the 
 broadest sense and in the sense the potters themselves 
 use it when it was not a definite thing, but where 
 every man who. had chronic bronchitis or asthma every 
 winter always assumed that what he suffered from was 
 potters' asthma. 
 
 6922. Have you noticed any decline in the number 
 of cases within the last 10 years of real potters' 
 asthma?— lAU the evidence that I have been able to 
 get in the potteries district is -very strongly in that 
 direction. I have interviewed practically all the 
 
 certifying ^surgeons■ and a" great many: of the club ■ 
 doctors in North Staffordshire, and it is a matter which 
 I have been asked to look after. 
 
 6923. (Professor AJlbutt.) Are you a potter yourself? 
 — Yes. 
 
 6924. In what part of England? — In Lancashire, 
 near Manchester, but I was originally five years with 
 Wedgwood's as their chemist. I have seen several of 
 the large club-doctors in Staffordshire, and they tell 
 me most emphatically, and Dr. Hill, the certifying 
 surgeon at Tuiistall, told "me again only last week; thit 
 the change was most manifest. Dr. Hindle; of Tun- 
 stall, says the same thing. The figures I have sent 
 you, which were all I have been able to get from the 
 largest general club in the potteries, the North Staf- 
 fordshire Provident Association, are in the same direc- 
 tion, and their secretary tells me they have much fewer 
 cases than -they used to have. There is also this to be' 
 borne in mind, that a great many of these cases might' 
 have occurred, and have never been classified as 
 potters' asthma at- all.. You see in. the return of 
 deaths, and so on, drawn up by medical men and 're- 
 ported to the local Medical Officer of Health; there « 
 no spacial heading for potters' asthma, so that I am 
 afraid these figures must be taken with the very 
 greatest caution. 
 
 6925. (Chairman.) Cases do sometimes occur^i I sup- 
 pose, of real " potters' asthma " ?— I think there can 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 219 
 
 : be no dankt that a certain amount of suffering 'aad 
 
 ^disease. of consolidated lung has, arisen i in the past, 
 
 certainly, and still arises. . I .Jiad thei worst evidence 
 
 of that, because one of my^o.wn men, who nev«r, worked 
 
 on. any other pottery worls, has just. died froth it. 
 
 6926., Do you think it'is easy to 'differentiate ," potters' 
 Asthma" from other iomas. of lung troubled — rThat, of 
 ;.conrse, is .a pure, medical question, and I can, only 
 Answer iy stating what liiave been told by the medical 
 men in the Potteries,, who say that in their opinion it 
 is exceedingly difficult to, ^differentiate ; that, at all 
 . events, in the early stages >ot the disease the symptoms 
 are mainly subjective, as they are in the early stages 
 -■of lead, poisoning,, and very largely they have to pro- 
 o^ on the men's, or women's own statements. I may 
 $ay that I have been told by a doctor that he never 
 iaew a case of .potters' asthma among women opera- 
 tives. 
 
 6927. Have the Pottery Manufacturers' Association 
 ^any opinion to place before this Committse as to the 
 
 desirability, or the opposite, of scheduling " potters' 
 asthma'-' among the diseases under the Workmen's 'Com- 
 pensation Act?— Yes, they hav'S a very strong opinion 
 in this direction ;' that what, is undoubtedly potters' 
 asthma -is, in the first place, a gradually and rapidly 
 diminishing quantity, in consequence of the better 
 regulation of factories and processes for the better 
 Temovai' of dust. In the next place, as we are advised 
 by the best medical men we can get in our own dis- 
 trict, who know the circumstanoss of the work, it is 
 exceedingly difficult indeed, if not impossible, for them 
 
 ; to difierentiate potters' asthma until it has reached a 
 certain stage, from the ordinary forms of lung trmibte, 
 which are more than usually frequent in that district, 
 hecause it is a clay subsoil district, and lung diseases 
 are said to be more than usually prevalent there. Then, 
 
 , there is this great difficulty which we foresee. If you 
 decide that compensation ought to be granted in these 
 •cases — and we cannot deny and have no wish to deny 
 that there may be branches of the industry in which 
 
 , mischief has been and may be done by the inhalation of 
 
 ;dust — that being granted, we say, if you decide to give 
 comp3nsation at all, it ought to be given under the 
 most stringent regulations, for the reason that every- 
 
 ■ hody who works on a pottery is not a potter. We have, 
 for instance, on our own works . 100 different occupa- 
 tions, and on a works like Minton's or Doulton's, where 
 they manufacture a greater variety of goods than we do, 
 they probably have even more occupations than we 
 
 . have. You vidll remember that in the case of plumbism 
 or lead poisoning it was found absolutely imperative 
 to limit the psople who might be allowed to even 
 claim compensation, on the ground that there wtere so 
 many occupations connected with the industry from 
 "whi'ch plumbism could not possibly arise, and if the 
 thing was left generally everybody who had symptoms 
 ■which might be like those of plumbism would have a 
 claim. There is another thing I should like to say, 
 which is very germane to the point. When fi.rst it 
 was proposed by Lord James that pottery manufac- 
 turers should compensate for plumbism, I pointed out 
 that one rssult which was certain to follow would be 
 an increase in the number of cases. I am convinced 
 
 . that a quarter of the cases we have on our books 
 to-day,, that we are compensating on account of alleged 
 plumbism, are probably not due to the occupation at 
 all, only the medical man is in difficulty that, 
 as the people work in an industry in which 
 lead is employed, he cannot definitely say, and therefore 
 errs on the side of helping the weaker person, and 
 grants joompensation. I think that is a point which 
 ought to be strongly borne in mind in dealing with 
 compensation for an industrial disease, unless the 
 industrial disease is one which can osrtainly be most 
 clearly differentiated from any other ailment. 
 
 6928. You said it waj difficult to differentiate until 
 the disease had reached an advano3d stage, did you ? 
 — ^So we are advised. 
 
 6929. But a workman would not be incapacitated 
 from work or be lia'ble to be suspended from work 
 quite in the initial stages, I suppose ? — ^I presume not. 
 I look upon this as a very different thing from the ques- 
 tion of plumbism, which we are dealing with more or 
 less satisfactorily. The numbea: of workpeople in- 
 volved, even if you grant a schedule, would be very 
 much relatively larger . than those scheduled for 
 plumbism. We have calculated that probably three 
 and a half times the number of workpeople are 
 employed in the clay branches as compared with 
 the scheduled lead processes, and even if we 
 
 4-9 
 
 drew up a schedule, with, the utmost care, ■ aind Te- 3/,. u? 
 
 stricted. it to those occupations where there might .be Burton 
 
 risk, there would.be roughly 20,000 people in the ' 
 
 country, and to have a monthly medical examination 18 Feb: 190-7. 
 
 of 20,000 people would simply paralyse our work. ■ 
 
 Assuming there was any suggestion on anybody's part 
 that there should be a regular examination of the 
 workpeople, we should ba compelled to oppose that as 
 impossible. 
 
 6930. On the point of suspension, I would point out 
 that the question of scheduling of a disease under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act does not neoassarily in- 
 volve any change in the rules of the Factories Act 
 under which suspensions take place ?— Not necessarily. 
 . 6931. It is a question wholly apart ?-^Quit<3 so ;■ no 
 special rules, no power of suspension. 
 
 6932. But there may be -compensation for a disease 
 with regard to which there is no power of suspension, 
 and, thepsfore, no medical examination ?-^uite so. 
 Under the regulations with regard to plumbism a 
 surgeon has power to suspend, if he considers there is 
 danger to the person from working longer in that 
 occupation. Would you propose to give the same power 
 to a surgeon to say a person ought not to work in this 
 particular occupation, because the lungs are already 
 so much, affected that they would be much more liable 
 to suffer? 
 
 6933. That is a question wholly apart- from' work- 
 men's compensation. It may be desirable or not, but 
 it must be considered- quite apart from this queslacm.* 
 — Yes,, but that is a matter which we must naturally 
 have before our eyas. 
 
 6934. The examination does now only apply to the 
 china scourer, does it not ?— Unless you put ~in some 
 fresh special rule. 
 
 6935. A fresh special- rub under the Factory Acts, 
 not under the Workmen's Compensation Act? — Quite 
 so. 
 
 6936. You suggest, do you, that if it were decided to 
 schedule potters' asthma, that in any case the occupa- 
 tions of the workers who are liable to potters' asthma 
 should be selected and clearly stated ?— I think that is 
 most important. 
 
 6937. Which occupations do you consider those in 
 which cases of potters' asthma may arise ? — That is a 
 question on which I should hardly care to give a 
 decided answer now. I think that would bs a ques- 
 tion in which we might all — say. Dr. Legge, represent- 
 ing the Home Office, and someone representing the 
 m'3n and manufacturers — discuss the whole thing. We 
 have roughly formed an idea, as manufacturers, but 
 we have not yet been able to come to any definite con- 
 clusion — it is a very large question. One would rather 
 have to go by the process of exclusion. The operatives 
 asked us to include all operative potters, but that 
 would not do, because that would exclude certain people 
 who are even more liable to suffer than operative 
 potters, such, for instance, as china scourers and 
 china-biscuit placers. I might mention those two 
 typical occupations, which no one can deny involve a 
 grave ©lemenlt of damger. With re.gard to the opera- 
 tive potters, I cannot conceive that a turner or a 
 thrower or a handler or a looker-over of green ware 
 before it goes into the oven could by any possibility 
 contract an industrial disease. 
 
 6938. (Professor Allbutt.) What would you call an 
 operative potter? — One who actually makes a 
 vessel of clay, or his attendant. But, then, you see 
 
 .the operative potters and their attendants do not Com- 
 prise a fifth of our workpeople.. 
 
 6939. Is " operative potter " a technical term ? — I do 
 not think it is a tschnical term, but I think it is 
 understood what we mean. It would include all people 
 who make vessels either by pressing or casting or 
 throwing or turning and their attendants. 
 
 6940. (Chairman.) Is there anyttiing you would like 
 to say to ths (Committee with regard to the effect on 
 the workpeople now engaged in the industry of schedul- 
 ing this disease ? — That is a very important matter in- 
 deed, and one which we feel most acutely, because 
 what are we to do if this disease is going to be 
 scheduled with the people at present in our employ- 
 ment, who might conceiva'bly, as soon as the Act 
 became law, come upon us for compensation ? The sin- 
 gular part of it is that we are going to be penalised if 
 you are going to give compensation for the misdeeds 
 of the past 20 or 30 years. In this particular case it 
 
 2 E 2 
 
220 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. W. 
 Burton. 
 
 18 Feb. 1907. 
 
 would be a case of retrospective kgislation. You see, a 
 man has only to go on with his occupation in order to 
 get compensation. 
 
 6941. (Professor Allbutt.) That is, assuming the 
 dust has caused the disaase? — I am bound to assume 
 that, and that again is a very big question for the 
 manufacturar, because, after all, taking the old men, 
 many of whom, if examined now, would be certified by 
 any medical man to be injured by their occupation, 
 some of them are the most skilful workmen we possess 
 and are not incapacitated. 
 
 6942. (Chairman.) Therefore, they could not claim 
 compensation, unless they were not merely suffering 
 from a disease, but were incapacitated ? — But when you 
 give a right to a man to claim he is incapacitated from 
 work, he would soon get into the habit of claiming it. 
 The medical men tell me that, with regard toplumbism, 
 one of the worst things compensation for plumbism has 
 done has been to convert an optimistic race into a 
 pessimistic one. Whatever anyone suffers from who 
 works in lead, now, it is always the lead which is said 
 to be the cause, and .so it would be here. 
 
 6943. (Professor Allbutt.) How far a man is inca- 
 pacitated from work would be a medical question, 
 would it not? — Yes, I presume it would. 
 
 6944. And in the light of the evidence we have had, I 
 understand medical men would not shrink from giving 
 it decision on the question ? — There are certain medical 
 men who shrink from giving any actual decision. There 
 are others, of course, who hold most extreme views. 
 There is a well-known doctor in the Potteries, who 
 said th'3 other day that the presence of a blue line on 
 the gum was an absolute proof of lead poisoning, and 
 the same doctor has stated that no one could work in 
 the Potteries without suffering from the dust they 
 must inliale. 
 
 6945. (Vr. Legge.) Do you know how the schedule is 
 arranged, and that on one side is put the name of the 
 disisase for which compensation is claimed, and on the 
 other the particular process? — ^Yes. 
 
 6946. If you had on this one side, " fibrosis of the 
 lungs," and nothing else, it would then devolve on the 
 worker to prove, would it not, that he had contracted 
 the disease from his employment. It would not be 
 assumed that it arose from his employment, seeing 
 that nothing is written on the right-hand side. Would 
 you take exception to a schedule framed in that way, 
 leaving it to the worker to prove he had contracted 
 the disease from ihiis employment ? — I realise that 
 there are a whole group of industries .going 
 to be laffleofced by this legislation ; it is not 
 confined to our trade, and what might be wrong for our 
 trade might be right for the majority. Personally, I 
 
 see no objection to that course being taken, except that 
 there would be serious litigation -and trouble between 
 operatives and masters for a time. 
 
 6947. Even supposing you had a long list of occu- 
 pationis in the Potteries, and it was placed 
 on this leftJhiand side, it would bo possible stiU, 
 would it not, to compel the worker to give proof? Is, 
 it therefore desirable to go into the classificatiMi 
 or description of process ? — I think so, for this reason : 
 That unless you could prove that the majority of the 
 occupations in the industry could set up this condi- 
 tion, then I think it is very much better to proceed 
 by a process of exclusion. 
 
 6948. Do you mean, tihait what was put on .this right 
 hand side would 'be a. guide 1 — ^I think it wooild ibe a very 
 great .guide, and it would settle people's mind on one 
 side and the other. Of course., if it were held, or .could 
 be shown, .that it was a gerueral condition, or that it ex- 
 tended to the majority of occupations in an industry, 
 I think the balance of the advantage would be with 
 your view, by making it perfectly general ; but if it 
 could be shown, on the contrary, that whatever di&- 
 culty there is exists only as to certain fairly well- 
 defined or definable occupations, then I think it is to 
 everyone's advantage to have those scheduled. The 
 clause in the Bill giving the Home Secretary power to 
 scliedule these occupations, says he may do it in any 
 way he pleases, so that the hands of the Home Office 
 are perfectly free in the matter. 
 
 6949. You hesitate with regard to mentioning par- 
 ticular processes, but would it be necessary to go 
 much further than to name china scouring and biscuit 
 placing ? — I think that would not satisfy the men. 
 
 6950. Do you mean they would like more?— 
 Naturally. I am not going to suggest for a moment, 
 on behalf of the trade, that if there is serious damagft 
 being done the trade ought not at once to meet the 
 point, but I think we must know exactly where we are. 
 
 6951. You said, did you not, you believe there is a 
 very great diminution in the number of cases of fibroid 
 phthisis? — I think so, from all the evidence we can 
 get and all the knowledge we have. 
 
 6952. And it seems to be exceedingly pronounced 
 among china scourers, for instance, owing to the pro- 
 vision of fans ? — I understand that has diminished the 
 disease amongst china scourers. 
 
 6953. But in the case of the biscuit placer there has 
 been nothing done to improve the conditions, has 
 there ? — il think so ; but, with reference to china biscuit 
 placers, I suggest you would question Mr. Moore, who 
 can speak specially about the china part of our 
 industry. 
 
 Mr. Bbexard Mooke, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. B.Moore. 6954. (Chairman.) Have you been for many years a 
 
 pottery manufacturer at Stoke-on-Trent ?— Yes, at 
 
 Stoke-on-Trent and Longton. 
 
 6955. You have heard, have you, the greater part 
 of Mr. Burton's evidence on this subject? — Yes. 
 
 6956. Is there anything in general you would like 
 to add to what he has said with reference to potters' 
 asithimia ? — Nothing, eixoept this : Women who work as 
 dhina soourers have suffered in the past, but I have 
 hardily ever kniown a wom.am clay worker to suffer ; the 
 cases .have been -extremely rare. 
 
 6957-64. Do you think tJher© is anything in the se.«^ 
 which makes people more liable ? — No ; but I think a 
 great deal of potters' asthma in the past has been due 
 to the employment of young boys as jigger turners 
 Thirty or forty years ago, I dan Temember that if a .boy 
 wanted to be a working potter, unless his family 
 were in a very good position, he always commenced as 
 a jigger turner at 8 or 9 years of age, working in a 
 dusty place, and sometim.6s all night, and h© laid .the 
 foundiation of the disease, and my experience is tlh.at 
 ffhat has tieen one of the most fruitful .sources of the 
 trouble. After being a. jigger turner he became after- 
 wards lan ordinary potter, land .almost always showed 
 signs of shortness of breatih. That is a thin,g you do 
 not see mow. 
 
 6965. Therefore the younger men who have come 
 into the trade of recent years are not so likely to suffer, 
 are they ? — No ; my experience is that it is an almost 
 disappearing disease. 
 
 6956. Do you think the disease can be distinguished 
 
 from other lung complaints ? — I do not, and thxt is 
 my chief objection to this proposal. I think, in almost 
 every case of bronchitis and phthisis and general chest 
 trouble, it is extremely difficult to say that it has not 
 been helped in some way. No doctor could say it has 
 not been a/ccelenated iby the employment, .and there are 
 very few cases of potters' asthma which are not com- 
 plicated by other diseases. What I fear most in con- 
 nection with the proposal is that every case of chest 
 trouble will be made a means of attempting to connect 
 it with the man's trade. 
 
 6967. Do you know that the Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Act provides that cases of this kind shall first bo 
 considered by a certified surgeon, and that there is an 
 appeal from him to a medical referee, who, of course, 
 would be an expert in the particular disease that was 
 brought before him for examination? Do not you 
 think that provides sufficient machinery for dis- 
 criminating ?— I do not. What I fear is that every old 
 man will be thrown out of employment. After a cer- 
 tain age more people die of chest trouble than of any- 
 thing else, and chest troubles are very prevalent in 
 the Potteries. I do not think that any manufacturer 
 will take the risk of employing old people, and tliere 
 will certainly be an enormous number thrown out or 
 employment at once. Manufacturers, to my know- 
 ledge, and I am consulting many of the leading fir™* 
 in the Potteries, are having their men examined wif» 
 a view to this lung trouble. Every man is being W 
 amined at three large factories I know of. 
 
 6968. (Dr. Legge.) Will you describe the class of 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 221 
 
 worker who is most exposed, in your opinion, to 
 disease? — The china biscuit placer. 
 
 6969. Does the china biscuit placer also do the flat- 
 knocking and the flint siftinig I — No, not necessarily. 
 The flat-knocker is, as a rule, a casual man. 
 
 6970. Does he do nothing else but flat-knocking? — 
 He is an oven drawer in many cases ; he takes his turn 
 doing the other work. He may do flat-knocking on 
 one day and draw the oven another day. 
 
 6971. Is that necessarily a dusty occupation? Must 
 he' inhale dust ? — ^No ; if "they carried out a plan sug- 
 gested to them I do not think flat-knocking is as bad 
 as it used to be, though it will always be a rather 
 dusty occupation. I had a box made, which Mr. Osborne 
 came to see, and I had a plan of it drawn and sent to 
 many manufacturers, and it has been generally 
 adopted in order to do away with the dust. That 
 stopped the bulk of the dust in flat-knocking, but 
 there is a serious difficulty with regard to biscuit 
 placing. You understand, I distinguish very strongly 
 between earthenware biscuit placing and china biscuit 
 placing. There is no dust in earthenware biscuit 
 placing. 
 
 6972. So you think that the whole of the earthen- 
 ware workers might be excluded, do you ? — Yes, cer- 
 tainly. You see there is no flint used in placing 
 earthenware. It is very unusual to place earthenware 
 in) flinit, althougih I .believe, for the making of a 
 vitreous body, in one or two places they have adopted 
 the :Qhina system oi placing, which is to put a layer of 
 flint ibetween the plates. 
 
 6973. In earthenware it is usual to use sand, is it? 
 — Yes, and the. sand is 20 times as coarse as the flint, 
 and it cannot rise at all. Each particle is almost as 
 large as a small shot, while flint is a fine dust. 
 
 6974. In the towing of earthenware, where it is 
 necessary to use fans, what is the constitution of the 
 
 dust?— That is a flint dust. The dust that a china 
 biscuit placer inhales is not the dust of the ware, but 
 the dust of the material in which he is placing it. 
 
 6975. Is the dust of the material he is handling 
 moist?— No; in towing it is quite dry. There is no 
 dust given off from the ware in placing. 
 
 6976. When you say it is flint, do you mean it is 
 flint like sand, or such flint as you would get as silica ! 
 — You have the silica and you have boulder flints — 
 flints you see in the chalk measures and those on the 
 seashore. They form about 30 per cent, of the com- 
 position of an earthenware body, so that there is both 
 free flint and flint which is combined with the clay in 
 the earthenware. But the china biscuit placer Joes 
 not get his dust from the ware ; he gets it from the 
 material in which the ware is placed. I should say 
 that I could not choose a more healthy employnient, 
 providing the work is not done in a draughty place, 
 than that of an earthenware biscuit placer. I call it 
 one of the least dusty employments, but a china 
 biscuit placer's work is very dusty and very difficult 
 to deal with, because the powder in which he is placing 
 the ware is of a very fine character, and rises easily. 
 
 6977. (Professor Allbutt.) Thait is a silicious powder, 
 is it? — Yes, it contains, probably, 98 per cant, 
 of silica, and the particles would be sharp. 
 
 6978. (Dr. Legge.) Would you prefer a definition in 
 the schedule of particular diseases. Assuming a dis- 
 ease like fibrosis of the lungs might arise, to leaving 
 the onus on the worker to prove that he had con- 
 tracted the disease ? — Do you mean am I to choose 
 between one and the other? I would not say so then, 
 but I think it would be fairer to clearly define. I do 
 not think the dust of earthenware and china are 
 equally bad. I think china is worse. Dr. Arlidgs 
 makes a mistake in his book when he says it is because 
 china contains more silica than earthenware. 
 
 Mr. li. Moore. 
 IH Krtl.. i:)07. 
 
 TWENTY-THIRD DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, 19th February 1907. 
 
 UEMBEBB PBESEKT : 
 
 Mr. Herbeet Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 Mr. HeNET CtTNTNGHAME, C.B. 
 
 Professor Oliefobd Allbtttt, f.b.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Fbank Elliott (Secreianj). 
 
 Mr. J. W. Dawes, m.b., cm., called and examined. 
 
 6979. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man in prac- 
 tice in the Potteries ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6930. Have you had a large general practice there 
 for a number of years ? — Yes. 
 
 6981. Are you also. Medical Oflicer of Health for the 
 town of Longton ? — Yes. 
 
 6982. In which there are large china and earthen- 
 ware works? — Yes. 
 
 6983. Have you had large experience of potters and 
 their diseases ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6984. Have you had many cases of so-called potter's 
 asthma under your care ? — Yes, a fair number ; I would 
 not say very many. 
 
 6985. What are the pr€limina.ry symptoms of that 
 disease? — ^Cough, shortness of breath, and , expectora^ 
 tion, and a certain amount of flattening of the chest 
 takes place, and emaciation is one of the points in the 
 later stages. 
 
 6986. Are those the main symptoms ? — Those are the 
 external signs. Then, with the stethoscope and per- 
 cussion, you find wheezing and rales, and a certain 
 
 amount of dulness here and there, which may be exces- 
 sive in some parts. 
 
 6987. Do you think it possible to diagnose the 
 disease with certainty?^ — That is a difficulty, I am 
 I should not think it is a matter for certain diagnosis 
 at all. 
 
 6938. I suppose there is a very large proportion of 
 cases in which it might be said with a considerable 
 amount of certainty that the man was suffering from 
 lung disease owing to his employment ? — Yes, I should 
 say that. 
 
 6969. Would there be a certain margin of cases in 
 which there is doubt whether the lung ■ disease was 
 constitutional or caused from the trade in which the 
 man was engaged? — Yes. 
 
 6990. With regard to those latter cases, do you 
 think that a really e'Xpert medical man, who had made 
 this special subject his study, could say as a rule 
 whether the process in which the man_was engaged 
 was the causa causans of the disease ? — That is a diffi- 
 cult point, to my mind, but I should think it would ba 
 possible for an expert to define it. 
 
 ,1//-. J. W. 
 
 Dawes, 
 
 M.B., CM. 
 
 19 Feb. 1907- 
 
^22 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. W. 6991. You hav© no statistics, have you, ae, to the 
 
 Dawes, degree of incidence of this disease? — No, I have. not. 
 M.B., CM. 6992. You have furnished some statistics of deaths 
 
 19 Feb. 1907. ^^ London, have you not ? — Yes. 
 
 6993. What is the main purport of these figures P — 
 
 I brought them, thinking they might possibly he of 
 sei-vice, ae I had not any others. 
 
 6994. Do they show the deaths from respiratory dis- 
 eases from 1898 to 1906? — I pick them out in this 
 manner : Each one of these cases represents a potter. 
 The bronchitis, the phthisis, the fibroid phthisis, and 
 potter's asthma, cases are all cases of people who 
 do some form of work in the potteries. 
 
 6995. You have not the death rate have you, from 
 these diseases among potters as compared with the 
 death rate from similar diseases amongst the rest of 
 the population ? — No, I have not. 
 
 6996. Oould you give those figures? — Yes, I think I 
 could get those figures for the Committee if they require 
 them. 
 
 6997. {Mr. Cunynghame.) What is the population of 
 the Borough of Longton ?— 36,797. 
 
 6998. Where are these statistics got from ? — ^From the 
 Registrar's monthly returns. 
 
 6999. 'Axe they printed and published? — No, they 
 are returned to me every month as Medical Officer of 
 Health by the local Registrar of Births and Deaths. 
 
 7000. In proportion to the population of 36,797, the 
 number of cases of bronchitis is 168 in nine years.; 
 must we divide the figure of 168 by nine to get the 
 yearly average ? — Yes, of deaths. 
 
 7001. So that would give about 19 cases of bron- 
 chitis, about 20^ of phthisis, including all sorts of 
 phthisis — ^tuberculosis of every kind, I suppose, as. well 
 as what I may term dust phthisis ? — No ; if you look 
 you will see another heading of fibroid phthisis. 
 
 7002. I do; but I mean the phthisis of which 186 
 is the number given here, represents all the phthisis 
 cases, does it not? — It does not include the fibroid 
 phthisis. 
 
 7003. But it includes cases which would not be 
 dust phthisis, does it not? — Probably. 
 
 7004. It includes all the cases of phthisis that occur 
 except fibroid phthisis ? — No, I should not say that 
 at all, because if there have been other casee, not 
 amongst potters, I have not included them. 
 
 7005. Does the figure 186 represent all the potters, 
 who in nine years died of phthisis? — Yes. 
 
 7006. Then, taking the classification, 11 represents 
 the total deaths from fibroid phthisis ? — Quite so. 
 
 7007. To get the yearly average one must, of course, 
 divide those figures, must one not, by nine ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7008. So. that gives of bronchitis cases 19, of phthisis 
 proper, as I will call it, 20j, of asthma 6i^, and of 
 fibroid phthisis an average of Land a little over; is 
 that right ? — Yes. 
 
 7009. Those, as far as I can see, do not strike me 
 as very high figures. They are not very alarming 
 figures, are they ? — No, they are not. 
 
 7010. Oonsequently, any compensation that had to 
 be paid would not appear to be a. very formidable 
 matter if you divided up amongst all the potters of 
 Longton, does it? — No, I should think not, if only 
 compensation for death alone has to be paid. 
 
 7011. Can you give the Committee the number of 
 potters that there are engaged in Longton out of the 
 36,000 odd population ? — Yes I have it from the census 
 returns ; the number is : Males of 10 and upwards., 
 4,815 ; and females, 4,559. 
 
 7012. Have those figures varied very much in the 
 nine yeans, the period which your figures cover? May 
 I assume that those figures represent the average for 
 the nine years, or has there been a large change in the 
 numbers ? — No, I should think they keep pretty much 
 about the same figure. 
 
 7013. With regard to the figures as to potters, do 
 they include the whole of the people engaged in the 
 pottery trade in any way, or are you thinking of some 
 class of potter? — No, the return is of those who work 
 in earthenware, china, and porcelain; it includes the 
 whole. 
 
 7014. Would that include a number of people en- 
 gaged in china painting who would not be likely to 
 catch dust phthisis at all? — Yes. 
 
 7015. It is not quite correct to use the words " fibroid 
 phthisis" as exactly relevant to dust phthisis, is it; 
 you might have a. fibroid condition, in certain casei 
 where there would be no dust, might you not?'- Yes, 
 you might. 
 
 7016. Can you give any idea of the proportionate 
 number of potters who would be exposed to dust put 
 of those 4,815. Have you sufiicient general knowledge 
 of the processes in the pottery trade? — I know what 
 the, processes are. 
 
 7017. Will you kindly say what jjrocesses you con- 
 sider dangerous from the point of view of liability .to 
 dust ; you do not consider them all dangerous, I sup- 
 pose ? — Not equally so. 
 
 7018. But do you regard them all as partly. dan- 
 gerous ? — I should think one might say that all, to a 
 certain extent, would be included in the word 
 " danger." 
 
 7019. What danger would there be to the painter!-^ 
 There is always dust, more or less, in all the rooms, 
 although it is kept down more than it used to he. 
 
 7020. Would there be dust in the painting rooms ; 
 it would ruin the painting, would it not, if there were? 
 — YeS, but there must be a certain amount of dust 
 taken in by the people themselves. 
 
 7021. Then there is dust in the office where they sit 
 and make up the accounts, and even dust in the streets 
 of Longton. Do not you think we should be rather 
 going too far afield if we take notice of every bit of 
 dust" that might by every possibility get into a per- 
 son's lungs ?— Perhaps I should say dust arising, fi;om 
 the works. 
 
 7022. Would it be possible, by naming certain pro- 
 cesses, to justify putting down ithe dangjerous processes 
 to which people were exposed in the potter's trade, 
 taking a certain amount of /them, and then saying of 
 the resi that they do not seem to be exposed to mAich 
 (more danger than the mass of the population — do you 
 ithink that would be a fair way of p'uttLng it? — ^Yes, 
 I do. 
 
 7023. If that is done, that involves one taking an 
 account of the different processes, does it not, and 
 saying A, B, and C are specially dangerous and D, E, 
 and F are not specially dangerous ? — Yes. 
 
 7024. Do you think you could give us those classes 
 of the trade which present special dangers ? — I think I 
 could. 
 
 7025. Will you state what the chief ones are? — The 
 scourers are the chief, and I should think the ovenmen 
 are the next ; then probably pressers, lathe treaders, 
 throwers and moulders, warehouse men and women. 
 
 7026. Do you think the warehouse people are liable ? 
 — ^Yes ; I do not say they are so much liable to it, but 
 they are liable to it. 
 
 7027. Do not you include biscuit placers ? — Oh, yes, 
 they are the worst. 
 
 7028. Are you able to give us any sort of idea of 
 what proportion those occupations would represent of 
 the 9,300 potters, male and female, that there are?— 
 I should think quite two-thirds. 
 
 7029. May we take it that with regard to the remain- 
 ing third, they are not engaged in a more dangerous 
 occupation .than those people, engaged , in a host of 
 other trades ? — That is so. 
 
 7030. Taking a man who is engaged regularly in 
 driving a coach along a road in a flinty country, I 
 should; have thought there would ..be a good deal of 
 dust blown up on the road, would there not?— Yes. 
 
 7031. Would you call that a dangerous trade or not, 
 or have you had any such experience ? — No, I have not 
 had that experience. 
 
 7032. I should have thought he would be as much 
 exposed to dust as a china painter when you came to 
 consider it, would he not? — Yes. 
 
 7033. Supposing it were resolved only to include the 
 trades which you say compose two-thirds of the in- 
 dustry, it could hardly be complained if the, one-third 
 were left out, could it? What would be the right 
 thing to do from a medical point of view? — I think it 
 would be very fair to leave out the one-third alto- 
 gether, as not being exposed specially to the danger 
 of potters' rot. 
 
 7034. In the word " asthma," I suppose you include 
 phthisis and asthma and bronchitis, and the whole 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 228 
 
 thing?^^I, should -do so, but-.tbesa-setttrns are- made- '. 
 separately. 
 
 7035. When you -speaK of posters' rot,., would not it 
 include all the group of disease^?— Yes,-!, should •in- 
 cline to that point of view. 
 
 7036. (Professor Alllmtt.) You mentioned emaciation 
 as one of the first and chief symptomSj did yo'U not? — ■ 
 Yes. 
 
 7037. But yourlmentii}ni,ng-of it first was acoidenial, 
 wasit not?j: Emaciation is not really a leading symp.. 
 tom 1 — ^Yes, 'it was aoeidental. 
 
 7038. You would agree with the other "witnesses that 
 at first it is-raitherthe.albsence of emaciation which is a 
 peculiar feature ■'of ■ patters' disease ?— Yes, I agree; 
 I made a mistake in mentioning emaciation as an early 
 symptom. 
 
 7039. You say in your precis, " If these symptoms 
 are associated with daily work in a dusty atmo- 
 sphere in a manufactory, we may consider it is a case 
 of pptters'. asthma. But, inasmuch as these symptoms 
 are also common to such diseases as chronic bronchitis, 
 emphysema, and other chronic chest troubles, not 
 necessarily due to dust, but often to carelessness of 
 ventilation in home, in clothing, feeding, and drink- 
 ing, and yet these being chest diseases which potters 
 suffer from in common with other workers, I can 
 readily foresee, if these diseases are scheduled, very 
 many cases of chronic chest trouble in potters will be 
 diagnosed* as potters' ■asthma, and it will be very diffi- 
 cult, if not impossible, to disprove this." But the 
 referee, to whom in case of difficulty a patient might 
 he referred, would have all the history of the case 
 before him, would he not? — I was thinking of the 
 earlier cases ; I was thinking more of the beginning of 
 these caaeSj not when the disease is thoroughly estab- 
 lished. 
 
 7040. A case at the beginning would scarcely come 
 under the operation of this Act, would it ? — I did not 
 know that. 
 
 7041. The point is incapacitation. When the matter 
 comes under consideration as one of incapacitation, 
 the referee would have the advantdgfe of learning the 
 history of the case, would he not ? — ^Yes, certainly. 
 
 7042. I quite agree as to the great difficulty of 
 diagnosis on 'being suddenly consuillbed ; but if you were 
 a referee, and the whole history of the case was laid 
 before you, do you think there would then be much 
 difficulty about the matter ? — No ; I think it would be 
 very simple then. I had in my head the beginning of 
 the disease rather than the later stages. 
 
 7043. You were speaking rather as a medical man 
 than from the point of view of a legal demand for 
 compensation ? — Yes: 
 
 7044. Then, again, oangrene of the lung isi. very rare, 
 is it not? — Yes.. 
 
 7045. With' regard to tuberculosis-^without leading 
 you, we have heard from many nvitaessss -that in the 
 \a,t&c stages of' dust-lung, tubercle may sufpervene, and 
 that if it does, the potters' disease from that time 
 assumieB a more .acute form, with night"s-\l?eats,-'eimacia- 
 tiom, and fever, as though previous'.potters'" disease had 
 opened the way to tubercle. Is. this your experience? 
 — Yes, I quite agree' with that. 
 
 7046.' In other tradesdt is said that thefibrosisforms 
 a certain protection against the penetrationi tubercle ; 
 but it would depend on, the -degree, I suppose, of the 
 fibrosis. You find in potters' disease that the superven- 
 tion of tubercle is a grave matter ? — A very grave matter. 
 Iliad a case a little while ago, the last case 1 had, in 
 which the paitient had no tubercle. I had the sputum 
 examined several times, and was astonished to find no 
 tubercle, and that was an advanced case. I thought 
 the patient would not live very long, but he rallied 
 and is ILving-^now, and that was two years ago. 
 
 7047. Then you would not be dis-poscd to say that 
 thesupHTsention of tubercle is the usual course, at any 
 rate ? — It is not a certain feature. 
 
 7048. Th^re are always difficult cases ; but, spea&ing 
 ge'neTaUy, the relatiori of 'tubercle to'potters' disease 
 v/ould not be a matter of very grave difficulty, thfen? 
 A.iperson inheriting- sfalrie susceptibility tb consumption 
 may never conitraot it,- but if put to a dusty trade he 
 might 'welL become tuberculous, I suppose ? — Yes. - 
 
 7049. • So that there might be'-a^certain; theoretical' 
 responsrbility on;thepaTt"of those :who conduct the 
 trade^^Yea.. 
 
 7050. .And in a case- of -this kind 'wouM- y&u -agfee j^^.. j_ jp.^ 
 that to discriminate dust disease from primary tuber-' Dams~ 
 culosis would be almost impossible — that it would be m.b., C.m.- 
 
 difficult to say how far it was due to the dust and ho* 
 
 far to other causes ?— Yes. 19 Feb. 1907, 
 
 7051. But if we could establish that the case began 
 as dust disease, then the ■ tubercle becomes, however 
 grave, a secondary complication, does it not ?— Yes. 
 
 7052. And a disease for. which the- trade ia rei^poii- 
 sible? — Yes. 
 
 7053. But there might be' tiiahy intermediate' cas^sx>f- 
 this mixed land which might offer a difficulty to a- 
 refeiree as to whether the tubercle were primary, or 
 secondary ? — Yes, I should think it would create some 
 difficulty. 
 
 7054. Do you think in the majority of cases that 
 the evidence of the precedence of the dust disease might 
 be fairly conclusive ?■— As to whether that was really - 
 the cause of the tubercle or not)- do you mean ?, . ,.• 
 
 7055. How the disease was initiated,- whether it waa ' 
 tuberculous in its origin or dust in its origin?— I 
 should be inclined to give the dust as origin. 
 
 7056. (Dr. Legge.) How many years have you been 
 medical officer of health? — Four years. 
 
 7057. So that you do not rememb«.an inquiry that 
 was made into the deaths from phthisis and respiratoi'y 
 diseases of the female population' in Longton, and 
 of the china, scourers in particular, by twoi Inspectors of ' 
 the Factory Department in 1896, although you. Were in 
 practice then ? — ^No, I do not. 
 
 7058. (Chairman.) Can you tell me how long it takes 
 for the disease to develop ? Suppose a healthy worker 
 were to be engaged in one of those dusty processes, 
 what would be the minimum period of time in which 
 fibrosis of the lung would be at all likely to be con- 
 tracted ? — ^That is rather a difficult question to 
 answer. You say,' " to be contracted," but it is such a 
 very slow ■'process. Do you mean when a man began 
 to be ill, or when you would be certain he had some 
 such disease? 
 
 7050. I mean the latter ? — 'Do you mean how long he 
 has been at the work befbf6 you -were siire he had 'the 
 disease? 
 
 7060. No. If you were sure he had, the di,§ea^ what 
 would be the minimum time he would be likely to, have 
 been at the work ? — -That would vary according to the 
 individual, to a certain extent. If he started a strong, 
 healthy man at the work it would take longer pro- 
 bably, and another thing, if he lived a clean, : healthy 
 life, and was not a drinker, he would resist any ten- 
 dency to the disease longer than another man. He 
 might go 10 years, at least, under those circumstances 
 without showing symptoms of the disease. 
 
 7061. Supposing a man were particularly susceptible, 
 and the process in which he was employed was the- 
 most dangerous of those you have mentioned, what 
 would be the least time ? — Twelve months or two years 
 — not more, I think. 
 
 7062. Would you be very much surprised if- a worker 
 who had gone into the potteries, and had been working 
 there for six months only, were to show symptoms of 
 this disease? — ^No, if he, was a bad liver I shoulii not 
 be surprised. 
 
 7063. Or even a shorter period? — I would not say 
 shorter than six months ; I think even if he was a bad 
 liver that he would not show anything earlier. 
 
 7064. (Professor Attbutt.) Referring to your reply to 
 Mr. Ounynghkme, the dust which pervades the potteries- 
 is a very fine silicious dust, is it not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7065. The ■ particles of it are sharp and angular? — 
 Yes. • 
 
 7066. Do you find these, particles in the sputum, on 
 microscopical examination? — :I have not examined for 
 that purpose. ., , 
 
 7067. Then yOU' could not- say whether, for example 
 in th©' less dusty' departments, these particftes are still ' 
 to be "found intthe- -sputiim of persons who,' peAaps, 
 never show signs of dust disease ? — No. 
 
 7068. Evenln the pain ting^room— 'presumably a room 
 which- is less dusty-^is there much dust lying about on 
 the ledges- of 'the windows and in the corners cf the 
 room, and''EO'on'?^Not so much a sthere used to be. 
 
 7069; You would not be -able to sweep it off the ledges 
 
224 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. W. of the windows m little heaps, for instance ? — ^Not more 
 
 Daves, than you would in an ordinary house, I should think. 
 
 M.B., c M. 7070. As regards intermediate rooms, is the same 
 
 19 Feb 100" ^^^o t™e — is it only in the dusity rooms where much 
 
 dust would be flying about ?— YeS, but of course that 
 is kept down more than it used to be, a great deal. 
 
 7071. It is very much better than it used to be, is it 
 not? — Yes, a great deal. 
 
 Mr. G. Petgeavb Johnson-, m.d., d.p.h., called and examined. 
 
 Wj, ,, p 7072. (Chairman.) You have, I believe, been in prac- 
 
 Johnson ^^^^ ^^ ^ general medical practitioner at Stoke-ou- 
 
 M.D. D.p.i'i Trent for a number of years? — Yes, between 12 and 
 
 1! L ' ' 13 years. 
 
 7073. Have you made a special study of the ques- 
 tion of the incidence of lung diseases amongst potters ? 
 — I have to some extent. 1 went into the matter some 
 years ago. 
 
 7074. Is it your opinion that the lung diseases which 
 are due to employment can be differentiated by diagnosis 
 from those that are prevalent amongst the ordinary 
 population not engaged in pottery occupations ? — I do 
 not think so ; I do not think it can. The way in which 
 we come to the conclusion that it is potters' asthma, as 
 a rule, is by inquiring about their employment. When 
 we know the occupation, then we suspect that the bron- 
 chitis from which the man is suffering might be secon- 
 dary to dust irritation. 
 
 7075. Do you think there are any specific symptoms 
 that attach to asthma or fibrosis of the lung that are 
 caused by dust different to those attaching to diseases 
 of the respiratory system which are not caused by 
 dujst ? — I do not think it is possible to distinguish for 
 practical purposes. It is a disease which develops very 
 slowly, like an ordinary bronchitis ; it takes years to 
 develop, and any attack of bronchitis in a potter oould 
 be put down to potters' asthma, or what is usually 
 termed potters' asthma. 
 
 7076. You have furnished some statistics of the 
 -deaths among male potters over 20 years of age at 
 Stoke-on-Ti-ent in certain years. In the 7 years, 1893 
 to 1899, what proportion died of lung disease ?• — 50 
 per cent. 
 
 7077. And in the years 1902 to 1906, 5 years, what 
 propoi-tion died of lung disease ? — In the first period, 
 1893 to 1899, the term " potters " includes all the 
 branches of the trade ; in the next period, 1902 to 
 1906, I have taken potters' pressers, that is, the branch 
 -of the trade which seems to be most affected. I might 
 say that, previous to 1886 in the death returns, the 
 term potter was used to cover the whole of the occupa- 
 tions ; just the simple term potter was used. Subse- 
 quently to that, and more so after 1898, terms such as 
 pot-ters' presser, potters' placer, potters' turner, and so 
 on, were suibstitu-ted. 
 
 7078. Of what returns are you speaking ? — -The regis- 
 tration returns. I found that amongst potters' pres- 
 sers lung diseases were very common ; 77 per cent, of 
 them seemed to die from lung diseases. 
 
 7079. Was that from 1893 to 1899 ?— Yes. 
 
 7080. And in that class during the later period what 
 was the proportion? — Exactly the same. In the first 
 case the figures were worked out to 1899. I have not 
 turned up the figures since, and the later period I 
 worked out on Saturday, and it turned out -to be 
 exactly the same proportion. 
 
 7081. Are the potters' pressers a large class? — That 
 I am unable to say. 
 
 7082. Would you have many deaths in that class in 
 a given year from respiratory diseases? — In Stoke we 
 have the North Stafford Infirmary, and we have the 
 workhouse, and from the year 1902 to 1906 there were 
 about 71 deaths among potters' pressers. 
 
 7083. From respiratory diseases ? — ^Yes, but the in- 
 firmary includes a very large district, and the work- 
 house includes the districts of Hanley, Stoke, Fen- 
 ton and Longton, with a population of about 150,000. 
 
 7084. So that you have 14 deaths per year from 
 respiratory diseases among this class ? — Yes. Of 
 course for the single borough of Stoke-on-Trent there 
 would be fewer, because a good many of these deaths 
 occur at the workhouse. 
 
 7085. I believe the figures of the North Staffordshire 
 Infirmary show a large decline in the number of deaths 
 from fpotters' asthma in recent years. Do you think 
 that has been because there has been a real decrease in 
 the disease, or do you think the diseases which used to 
 be termed potters' asthma are now entered under other 
 
 heads? — I am quite sure recently that the deaths are 
 not certified as potters' asthma ; they are all certified 
 as bronchitis, pneumonia, or phthisis. You do not 
 get the term potters' asthma at all, or anything from 
 which you could differentiate between ordinary bron- 
 chitis or phthisis in a potter and in an ordinary per- 
 son. I went into the figures from 1892 to 1899, and 
 compared them with those of the late Dr. Arlidge, and 
 I found out of the total deaths during the 7 years, 1893 
 to 1899, occurring amongst males alone above 20 years 
 of age engaged in the potting trade at Stoke-on-Trent 
 50 per cent, was due to lung diseases, phthisis 25, 
 bronchitis 21, pneumonia 4. The late Dr. Arlidge put 
 the proportion at 60, which was higher. Dr. Arlidge 
 stated the deaths of male potters from diseases of the 
 respiratory organs, in relation to their entire mortality 
 from all causes was 60 per cent., as calculated for the 
 entire male population. I came to the conclusion that 
 the disease was less common and that there was a 
 decided decrease from lung diseases among potters. 
 
 7086. Do you think that potters suffer from lung 
 diseases owing to their employment ? — I think they do. 
 
 7087. Is it your opinion that you cannot tell in any 
 particular case whether the disease is due to the em- 
 ployment, or due to other causes ? — That is so ; it 
 differs very slightly, and it is only by inquiry as to 
 the occupation that one comes to a conclusion defi- 
 nitely. 
 
 7088. The disease may go on, I suppose, for many 
 years before the worker is incapacitated from his em- 
 ployment 1 — Yes. 
 
 7089. Even as many as 15 or 20 years ? — That is so. 
 
 7090. For how long a period would the disease be 
 developing if the worker was, one might say, specially 
 susceptible to lung disease, and if the process was a 
 very dangerous one. What is the minimum period in 
 which you would ever find a worker employed in 
 pottery works showing symptoms of the disease? — I 
 cannot say. 
 
 7091. Would you think it possible, if a worker had 
 been employed only 6 months, he might show symp- 
 toms ? — From those cases I have inquired into, I think 
 not. 
 
 7092. Would you say a year? — ^I should think longer 
 than that ; I should say some years. For instance, I 
 
 took three potters. was the patient and he was 56 
 
 yearsi of age. He had gradually developed the disease 
 during the last 10 or 15 years. — — was 47 years of 
 age ; he hiad attacks of bronchitis and shortn^s of 
 breath, but he was well developed, and able to follo-w 
 his employmenit. Then the other man was 32 years of 
 age, and he had no signs. I think it takes years before 
 the first sighis of brondhitis show themselves. 
 
 7093. (Mr. Cunynghame.) I understand that out of 
 the potters' pressers who die, 77 per cent., that is, 
 roughly speaking, three-quarters of them, die of lung 
 
 ?— Yes. 
 
 7094. What proportion of the trade do the potters' 
 pressers embrace ? — I have not the slightest idea. 
 
 7095. Do you know the proportion of potters' pres- 
 sers to the other employees in the trade? — I cannot 
 say. 
 
 7096. What district are you dealing with? — Stoke- 
 upon-Trent. 
 
 7097. How many potters' pressers are employed at 
 Stoke-upon-Ttent ? — I cannot say, and that would not 
 give you any idea, because those figures include the 
 deaths in the infirmary. 
 
 7098. Why would it not give any idea? — Because it 
 covers a large district, and many of them die at 
 home. 
 
 7099. Supposing it is assumed that the 77 per cent, 
 was representative, which perhaps it is not? — Exactly. 
 
 7100. Then may I say nothing can be concluded 
 from your figures? — Those are the returns I have. 
 
 7101. I am not impugning them. But if you differ 
 from me it does not seem to me, as at present advised, 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 225 
 
 that any oonclusion whatever one way or the other 
 <jan be drawn from this figure at all? — I should not 
 like a definite conclusion to be drawn from^ it,- unless 
 it is confirmed in some way. 
 
 7102. May I take it for our purposes these figures 
 thro\Wo light whate^r on the subject? — I cannot say 
 they wauld throw any definite light at all; 
 
 7103. Can you indicate any light whatever which 
 they throw upon it, because if so, I will follow it up? — 
 It seems to me they are high, and I am inclined to 
 imistrust the. figures. 
 
 7104. I wanted to compare your figures with other 
 £gures, but I do not think I can, because it only means 
 ■th«t77:per cent, of the potters who have died there 
 liare died of lung disease ?-^Aild in my district as well. 
 "You see I get the whole returns. 
 
 7106. Does this figure include the whole number 
 that died ?— Yes. 
 
 7106. Then if we get the total number employed, we 
 «oUld get the percentage of those dying, could not we, 
 taking Sboke-upon-Trent alone ? — Many of those people 
 ■come from other districts. 
 
 7107. Then it is impossible to use these figures for ' 
 jiny purpose, is it not?^Yes, I think it iSjU-nless they 
 .are checked. 
 
 7108. Then from your figures which you have given, 
 <!orrect though they are, a not much useful conclusion 
 <\an be drawn, and they would require to be supple- 
 mented by other sets of figures ? — ^Yes, I think so. 
 
 '7109. You know agood deal about the pottery trade, 
 I suppose, without being a practical potter ; you know 
 the health aspect of it, for instance ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7110. Supposing dust phthisis were to be classified 
 in the Workmen's Compensation Act for compensation, ■ 
 and you had to suspend people who were suffering from 
 the disease, would there be a considerable number of 
 suspensions ? How would it work, in your opinion ?^ 
 What I feel is that there would be the difiiculty in 
 deciding. A presser might get an attack of bron- 
 chitis early in his career, and put it down to potters' 
 asthma ; you might have a great many suspensions. 
 
 7111. Can you give any idea of what number there 
 would be? — No, not the least idea. 
 
 7112. (Professor Allbutt.) In your precis you say, 
 "Apart from what is for all practical purposes 
 bronchitis in potters, I do not know of any disease 
 which cculd be called potters' asthma." It is for prac- 
 tical purposes we are sitting, you understand ? — Yes. 
 
 7113. However, to leave the praotioal purposesi for 
 the moment, and going more into the theoretioaljjrin- 
 oiple, the Committee have been given to understand 
 that there is, pathologioally, a very considerable dis- 
 tinction between the two ? — ^I think there is. 
 
 ' 7114. The difficulty is one, you say, of coming to a 
 practical conclusion in the interpretation of particular 
 oases ? — ^Yes, quite so. 
 
 7115. The problem is therefore one of bringing scien- 
 tific principles into practical use, is it not? You 
 would say, as a scientific man, there is such, a disease, 
 the difficulty is to diagnose it ; and w© have to discover 
 how far we can bring the more refined scientific diag- 
 nosis into use for practical decisions ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7116. Is 'Stoke a district in which bronchitis is ex 
 ceptionally prevalent?— I do not think it is excep- 
 tionally prevalent. I went into the point some year; 
 ago, and it is less prevalent in the Stoke district than 
 in the surrounding districts of Longton and Fenton. 
 
 7117. And it is particularly the. Pottery centre 3 
 suppose ?— Yes, it is practically the centre of that 
 district. 
 
 7118. You examine a patient thoroughly, and upon 
 this examination alone there might be very great 
 difiiculty in ascertaining how the disease arose P — Tliat 
 
 i8 60. 
 
 V119. Speaking as a physician, it appears from what 
 we have heard, that the "initiatory stages of common 
 bronchitis and dust lung pursue, when fairly charac- 
 teristic, a different course?— 'From my practical experi- 
 ence I cannot say that they do. 
 
 7i20. .Do you think .that in general practice one 
 comes across cases of bronchitis beginning almost 
 419 
 
 Mr. G. P. 
 
 Johnson, 
 
 M.D., D.P.H. 
 
 1907. 
 
 without physical signs— just with a short morning 
 .cough, no incapacitation from labour except shortness 
 of 'breath,' and withiout physical signs ? Generally 
 speaking, does not ordinary bronchitis begin more or — 
 
 less aoately ? A man catches a bad cold, he has an 19 Feb. 
 
 acute bronchial attack, and is thus affected, say,, for 
 
 that winter, when he may get irid of his cough. But 
 as I understand, here it is the converse ; the illness 
 does not begin with an acute attack of bronchitis, but 
 as a slow cumulative effect on 'the finer .tulbes ? — That 
 may be so, but it would be, in my opinion, impossible 
 to distinguish it from an ordinary cold. Usually it 
 is for intercurrent attacks of bronchitis for which you 
 are consulted. 
 
 7121. Which may last a few weeks? — But often you 
 do not see these men more than a few days. 
 
 7122. But I am presuming that we are in possession 
 of the whole of the information which is necessary? — 
 You would have to get a very accurate account of how 
 the disease Commenced and its course, and that would 
 be very difficult for practical purposes. 
 
 7123. Certainly ; and then a person familiar with 
 these cases would be able to judge, would he not? 
 The picture of the course of dust lung -as a whole from 
 beginning to end, is a different story to that of ordinary 
 bronchitis? — ^You would have to trust altogether to the 
 paAient, I think ; you could not check it. 
 
 7124. Of course, every witness has to be trusted up 
 to a certain point, as long as he is consistent vdth our 
 previous knowledge ? — No ; so long as it is true. His 
 story may be consistent with what we know, but it 
 may be untrue, and you have to check it, and be quite 
 sure that it is true. He may have quite a consistent 
 story, but how are you going to check it ? I have had 
 a , lot of these men through my hands, ' and I never 
 thought of it as potters' asthma unless they developed 
 it later on. 
 
 7125. But the Committee have been told by medical 
 men, who have seen a good many cases of dust lung, 
 that they do not anticipate any very great difficulty in 
 deciding for themselves by their own observation? — 
 My experience is that, comparing it with other things, 
 if a man says " I am incapacitated," it does not matter 
 much what the medical man says. 
 
 7126. Then you rather differ from our previous evi- 
 dence, do you ? — I do ; it is the man's story, not the 
 medical man's opinion which is taken. 
 
 7127. {Mr. Cunynghame.) But is not the medical 
 man the man who decides whether a workman is to get 
 the relief or not ? — That is another point altogether. 
 
 7128. (Professor Allbutt.) I thought you vrere taking 
 it as .understood that these cases would be decided, by 
 an expert medical referee? — ^I do not know anything 
 about that point. 
 
 7129. However difficult it may be on a given day 
 and with the knowledge of the day .to interpret a 
 patient's cooidition, yet if we are put in possession of 
 a fair knowledge of the course of his disease from be- 
 ginning to end, this course might be regarded as fairly 
 dh'airaoteristdc, might it not? — ^Would you put it, the 
 course of disease and occupation ? 
 
 7130. Yes, the whole story?— Yes. 
 
 7131. It is common knowledge, is it not, that by 
 examination after death the two conditions are dis- 
 cernable, and one can make a diagnosis from inspec- 
 tion of the parts ? — Yes. 
 
 7132. If the sputum is. examined in these cases, the 
 fine silicious particles are easy to find, are they not ?— 
 That I do not know. 
 
 7133. In these cases, in the later stages, tubercle 
 is apt to supervene, does it not ?— In the cases m which 
 I have had the sputum examined, which are not many, 
 there have been no tubercle bacilli. I find, in looking 
 through the death statistics, that those who died of 
 phthisis died much earlier ; 44 was the average age I 
 got for those. 
 
 7134. Using the large body of post-mortem evidence 
 which we have had, and an extended clinical experi- 
 ence on such lines as I have indicated, on the whole 
 process from beginning to end, do you think that 
 decisions in individual cases would be more than 
 ordinarily difficult ?— When it is well developed, and 
 a man is incapacitated, then I do not think there 
 would be much difficulty, but up to that stage I think 
 there would be. 
 
 2 F 
 
226 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. William James Chbtstal, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. J. 
 Chrystal. 
 
 9 Feb. 1907. 
 
 7135. (Chairman.) Are you the managing partner of 
 Messrs. White's Chemical Works, in the neighbour- 
 hood of Glasgow? — I am. 
 
 7136. Are they manufacturers of bi-chromate 1 — Bi- 
 chromate of potash and bi-chromate of soda. 
 
 7137. Do you consider that the workmen employed 
 in that industry suffer from any disease owing to that 
 employment ? — ;No, I do not consider it a disease. 
 
 7138. Do they suffer from ulcers or from injury to 
 the septum of the nose ? — I understand that in some 
 instances they have ulcers in the hands, but they are 
 more or less trivial. 
 
 7139. Have you ever had any man employed in your 
 works who has been prevented from working by injury 
 to the nose? — Not that I am aware of. 
 
 7140. Have you ever had any man who was pre- 
 vented from working by ulcers ? — In an isolated aggra- 
 vated case I have, where gross carelessness was shown 
 with regard to keeping the hands clean and having 
 them attended to. 
 
 7141. When you say an isolated case, do you mean 
 an isolated case here and there ? — Yes, occasionally ; 
 onoe in six months or once a year. 
 
 7142. It has been stated that 90 per cent, of the 
 men employed suffer from perforation of the septum. 
 Do you agree with that? — Not at all. I think it is a 
 misleading statement, and I think Dr. Buchanan, who 
 gave that evidence, fell into a misunderstanding. 
 Whether he referred to the 35 men he examined or 
 not I do not know, but that is the only solution I 
 can see. 
 
 7143. What are those 35 men employed in ? — He was 
 asked at question 5613 : " How many men are there 
 employed and that you examined," and he said, 
 " There would be an average of about 35 men weekly, 
 aboait 140 a month." That, to begin with, is a little 
 misleading. Does the number of men employed mean 
 the total number of men in the factory ? 
 
 7144. Can you tell us how many men are employed in 
 the factory? — There are 700 men employed in the 
 factory. 
 
 7145. How many of those are engaged in processes 
 in which they are exposed to risk ? — The figures I have 
 here bring out the total of 197 men, or, roughly, 200 
 perhaps. These men are the men that have to go 
 before the doctor. I hold that there are 50 per cent, 
 of these men, that is, 38 at the furnaces in one work 
 and 44 at' the furnaces in another work who are not 
 under the influence of chromates in any way whatever, 
 but still we have to obey the special rules drawn up, 
 perhaps hurriedly, and that makes the total higher. 
 
 7146. Do you think, when Dr. Buchanan said 90 per 
 cent, suffered from perforation of the septum, he 
 meajit 90 per cent, of a much smaller total than the 
 whole body of men employed in the works ? — I think 
 he meant 90 per cent, of the 35 men mentioned in 
 that question. 
 
 7147. In what way are the 35 men employed ? — Those 
 were the men he examines monthly chiefly from the 
 Crystal house. 
 
 7148. But you are sure that no man is incapacitated 
 from work by this injury to the nose, are you ? — No, 
 not that I am aware of. 
 
 7149. How do you think the ulcers arise on the 
 men's hands? — The ulcers arise on the men's hands 
 by their having the skin injured or a cut, and the 
 chrome liquor getting into the cut or wound. It 
 never does any injury unless there is an abrasion of 
 the skin. 
 
 7150. Do you consider that these ulcers can be easily 
 diagnosed as being due to chrome? — No, I do not think 
 so, because the doctors seem to think that the men 
 at the chrome furnaces have chrome sores as well as 
 men in the crystal house, but as they do not come 
 into conta:ct with chrome at all I do not see how it 
 can possibly be. I think these chrome ulcers are 
 very much the sam© as if any foreign material got 
 into a sore on the hand and caused suppuration. 
 
 7151. Is there much dust arising from the bichromate 
 of potash ? — No' ; I consider the amount of dust is 
 infinitesimal. I do not allow the crystal to be dried 
 
 suflSciently to cause dust. I pi-efer rather to try to 
 prevent dust than to remove it after ' t is formed. 
 
 7152. Are you acquainted with the conditions • ia. 
 works in which bichromate of potash is manufactured 
 other than your own ? — I am not aware that I have 
 ever been in another chrome works during operations, 
 I have frequently been in them while they have been 
 standing idle, perhaps for sale, and I have bought them 
 at different times, and I have seen the different appli. 
 ances in them. 
 
 7153. Do you know whether there is much dust 
 evolved in other works than your own.P — I believe ia 
 Germany they were very bad at one time. 
 
 7154. But in Great Britain, I mean ? — Not in Greafi 
 Britain that I am. aware of. 
 
 7155. (Dr. Legge.) So that if injui-y caused by bi- 
 chromate of pofiash or soda were included in the- 
 schedule, it would not be a very serious matter so far 
 as your firm is concerned ? — It might cause us a deal 
 of serious inconvenience. 
 
 7156. In what way ? — ^Chiefly by unreasonable claims. 
 You see the men at present get compensation by get- 
 ting higher wages ; the moment they enter the crystal 
 house they get an increase of wages. 
 
 7157. (Chairman.) Why do they get an increase of 
 wages ? — To compensate them, in a sense, for any little- 
 inconvenience which may be caused by ulcers on the 
 hands. 
 
 7158. (Dr. Legge.) There is the experience of all the 
 years now during which there has been periodical 
 examination of tJtiese workers, and the knowledge 
 gained that as a rule incapacity is not caused, and 
 that would be taken into account in determining the 
 incapacity alleged, so that I do not see how this diffi- 
 culty you speak of would arise. Any claim would be 
 certified by the examining surgeon, and settled by a. 
 medical referee, who would determine the amount of 
 injury and incapacity it caused, would it not ? — ^We are 
 not aware of any incapacity, and it seems a trivial 
 thing to schedule a work in consequence of ulcers on 
 the hands. 
 
 7159. Do ulcers occur on the foot in a similar way? — 
 That could only arise under similar circumstances. If 
 there was an open sore, and liquor got into a man's 
 boot, and it was not treated, the same thing would 
 occur ; it would occur in the case of any abrasion of 
 the skin. 
 
 7160. Bichromate of potash and bichromate of soda, 
 are caustic, and are far more irritating than any 
 ordinary dirt which may get into a wound, are they 
 not ? — Of course, it is a destructive oxidising agent, 
 and destroys tissue rapidly, but at the same time, 
 when you feel it getting in you can wash it out even 
 with yoiir mouth, or go to the pipe, and if you prevent 
 any more getting in you have no ulcers, and need have 
 none, so that it is really no more serious than ordinary 
 foreign matter getting into a wound. 
 
 7161. Do you know how many men the appointed 
 surgeon to your works has to transfer to other work? 
 — No ; I have no- statistics. I believe the number is 
 very small. I would like to hazard it that out of 
 20O he examines he only removes 2 or 3 per cent, 
 per annum. You might call them isolated cases again. 
 
 7162. Do you regard the sore places caused on the 
 skin as more serious than the perforation of the sep- 
 tum, and more likely to lead to the necessity for 
 abstention from work? — I would say it causes more- 
 temporary inconvenience to the worker. 
 
 7163. Do you take exception to the statement that 
 out of lOO men employed in the crystal house there 
 would be perforation of the septum in 90 per cent. ? — 
 Yes, I think that is too- high. Of course, it reads at 
 present 90 per cent, of the total workers in the works 
 have it. I would not like to say Dr. Buchanan is 
 wrong, if he said that out of 130 men examined by 
 him 90 per cent, might have the septum injured, but 
 I think he means the 35 men he examines monthly. 
 
 7164. Do you know of cases where dust from the 
 imiaterial in packing gets into the eye and causes 
 inflaimmation of the eye, which might very well lea<f 
 to abstention from work for a week? — No, I have 
 never seen it ; I have seen the eyes slightly inflamed 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 227 
 
 if a man gets a splash or drop of liquor into them. It 
 is well known, and it has to be washed out at once. 
 A man generally fills his mouth with water and blows 
 it into the man's eye, and I have never known per- 
 , manent injury resulting from it. 
 
 7165. Still you reoognise, do you not, that the 
 material causes injuty arising in the course of occu- 
 pation^— I do not say serious injury — but it does cause 
 injury? — I would hardly call it injury. 
 
 . 7166. But it would be injury ? — Trivial, I consider it, 
 if care is taken and the men were amenable to cleanli- 
 mefis, and to the special rules. 
 
 7167. All the experience of the workmen of those 
 special rules is to show that the amount is small, but 
 it does exist, and we must take account of it ? — Quite 
 so. 
 
 7168. Have you experience of injury in the dyeing 
 trade from the use of chrome? — No, I have no know- 
 ledge. There are, of course', large Turkey red works 
 near where I reside, and I have been in them occa- 
 isionally, but I have no knowledge on the subject. 
 
 7169. I was thinking of the slub dyeing in the nf,. \y j^ 
 district round Bradford ? — I have no knowledge in that Chrystal. ' 
 direction. 
 
 7170. Would you be sui-prised to hear that consider- '^ Fsb^gOJ. 
 ably more complaint is made by the workers there of 
 
 injury .arising from chrome uioer.aitdon tham is made in 
 Glasgow P — In one sense I ought to be very much sur- 
 prised, but I am not, because in a dye works the vats 
 contain a great many more things than chrome — ^haJf 
 a dozen other chemicals — and it is very hard to blame 
 chrome for everything in the vats. 
 
 7171. {Mr. Cunynghame.) You are not familiar, are 
 you, with the use of spirit of salt ? — Yes, muriatic 
 acid or hydrochloric acid. 
 
 7172. Do you use it in your works? — We manufac- 
 ture it as a bye-product. 
 
 7173. You do not use it? — No; it might be used 
 in an infinitesimal degree in the plumbers' shop. 
 
 7174. I suppose your argument about chrome is that 
 an injury from it is not very different from aji injury 
 arising from spirit of salt in soldering? — I have no 
 knowledge of any injury caused by spirit of salt. 
 
 Mr. L. A. Dunn, m.s., f.b.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 7175. (Chairman.) Are you on the staff at Guy's 
 Hospital?— Yes. 
 
 7176. Have you been for, several years surgeon to 
 the National Truss Society ? — Yes. 
 
 7177. You are kind enough to attend to give evidence 
 .on hernia and housemaid's knee. With regard to 
 
 hernia, are yoii of opinion that any cases arise in which 
 hernia is contracted gradually, and not suddenly? — ■ 
 
 Yes, quite. 
 
 7178. We will limit ourselves to the gradual cases, 
 because if it is contracted suddenly it would be an 
 .accident, and not a disease. But, as a matter of fact, 
 do any cases arise in which hernia is not contracted 
 ;gradually, but at a given moment? — If it is a con- 
 ■genital hernia, that is to say, if there is a weakness 
 down in the scrotum, it may come down suddenly, 
 although it has not been there in early life ; but other 
 than that it is always gradual, except from accident. 
 
 7179. What kind of accident do you mean? — An 
 injury direct to the abdominal wall. 
 
 7180. Not a muscular strain in lifting heavy articles 
 or anything of that kind ? — It would be gradual except 
 in one of the so-called congenital forms, and then it 
 would come down suddenly ; otherwise it starts as a 
 small bulging, and gradually gets bigger and bigger, 
 till it comes right down. 
 
 7181. Do you think that persons who are engaged 
 in laborious occupations involving muscular stra,in 
 aj-e more liable to hernia than other people ?— Strain- 
 ing always renders them more liable. Given two 
 persons equally weak or equally strong as regards the 
 ^abdominal wall, the person who strains is more likely 
 to get a hei-nia than the one who does not. 
 
 7182. Do you think in any given case it would be 
 .possible to say whether the causa causans of the hernia 
 was the strain at the moment when the hernia came 
 down, or was not ? — ^No. 
 
 7183. Supposing a man was a railway porter and 
 suddenly found himself suffering from hernia, do you 
 think it would be in any case just to say that that 
 was due to his occupation, or might he just as likely 
 iiave developed the hernia by coughing or sneezing? — 
 ■Quite ; of course the strain is- the same really ; when 
 jou cough there is the strain on the abdominal muscles 
 
 and when you are pushing you fix the abdominal 
 musdes in exactly the same way, and hernia would 
 he likely in either case. 
 
 7184. Putting it generally, do you think that hernia 
 ■can ever be regarded as an industrial disease?— I 
 ■should say not ; certainly not. 
 
 7185. {Professor Allhutt.) In an individual affected 
 -with hernia there has always been, has there not, some 
 contributory condition, some original defect m his 
 l>odily conformation, which has contributed to the 
 ■event ?— Usually. 
 
 7186. Assuming a man as absolutely sound to begin 
 with, could any amount of muscular exercise produce 
 liernia? — I think so. 
 
 7187. Would it be sudden or gradual ?— There would 
 419 
 
 be a bulging. I should think if he was absolutely 
 
 sound, as strong as any man could be, there would ■'"Jj •''• ■^• 
 
 be only one place where it could come down, and that iJ^nn, 
 
 would be through the inguinal canal, where the cord M.S., f.b. c.s. 
 
 of the testicle comes. If that was done with sufficient 
 
 force to burst through the peritoneum, it would 
 
 become sudden. 
 
 7188. But in the large majority of cases there is 
 some original weakness at the wall, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 7189. So that Nature has contributed as much to the 
 hernia as the strain ? — Yes. 
 
 7190. (Dr. Legge.) Taking the case where it was pos- 
 sible for an exceedingly violent exertion to cause a 
 sudden protrusion of the bowel through the canal, 
 what signs would you get to enable you to be certain 
 that it was due to accident, and that it was not 
 gradual? — It would come down in the canal in any 
 case, and you could not be actually certain until you 
 were operating and found the peritoneum was rup- 
 tured, otherwise you could not possibly tell extern- 
 ally. 
 
 7191. Would there be severe pain ? — Yes, but of course 
 you could not tell if the man had pain — you would be 
 trusting to what the man said. 
 
 7192. Would the pain be so severe as to necessitate 
 medical aid?— I should not like to say whether it 
 would or would not ; probably it would. 
 
 7193. Would it be reducible ; could he reduce it 
 himself ?— I should think not ; a surgeon would pro- 
 bably, unless it had got tightly nipped, then it would 
 be strangulated. 
 
 7194. Would it be likely to be tie;htly nipped?— 
 Quite likely, I should think, if it suddenly dilated out 
 into the canal. 
 
 7195. Is it more or less likely than in the case of 
 umbilical hernia? — Less likely. 
 
 7196. So that one could practically exclude the 
 possibility of an ingiiinal hernia arising as an acci- 
 dent ?— Certainly. 
 
 7197. {Chairman.) Are there any statistics of the in- 
 cidence of hernia amongst porters, dock labourers, and 
 so forth, compared with the rest of the population?— 
 I do not know of any. 
 
 7198. From your experience should you say it is pro- 
 bable the incidence is much larger amongst those 
 classes of people than amongst the ordinary popula- 
 tion ?— It is difficult to answer that question. One 
 sees a large number of that class of people, no doubt, 
 but I could not say for certain. 
 
 7199 You would not say, in any given case, " This 
 man is a dock labourer, so of course he is very liable 
 to have hernia " ?— No, I should not. 
 
 7200. Any more than you would say it of a police- 
 man ?— No. 
 
 7201 {Professor Allbutt.) Is a sound man quite 
 stronc' in his abdominal walls?— No, far from 
 it • there is always a certain amount of weakness there, 
 
 ■2 F 2 
 
228 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Ifr. L. A. 
 
 Dunn, 
 
 M.S., F.E.C.S. 
 
 19 Fe^j. 1907. 
 
 and according as a man puts on fat it tends to weaken 
 thS' already weak spot. 
 
 7202. So far, then, muscular exercise ought to be 
 against hernia? — Yes. 
 
 7203. {Chairman.) Turning to the housemaid's knee, 
 that, of course, is a distinctly trade disease, so to 
 speak. Do you find it amongst other people besides 
 domestic servants ? — There is no doubt that people 
 who do kneeling, especially kneeling on hard stools 
 and floors, suffer from it. Carpet-layers, I believe, do 
 suffer from it. 
 
 7204. Any other classes? — One does not see many. 
 Those are the two classes who do the kneeling, and 
 they do suffer from the disease. 
 
 7205. Do you think it is easy to diagnose house- 
 maid's knee? — Quite. 
 
 7206. It is not liable to confusion with other ail- 
 ments, is it? — No, it is simply a bag containing fluid 
 in front of the kneecap ; that is usually what is called 
 housemaid's knee.' Of course it may form matter, and 
 become a serious thing, but what usually is called a 
 housemaid's knee is that fluid collection in the bag in 
 front of the kneecap. 
 
 7207. As • to this ailment of the knee from which 
 domestic servants suffer, what more scientific name has 
 it? — Chronic patella bursitis. 
 
 7208. Would that term cover all affections of that 
 kind due to kneeling? — Yes. 
 
 7209. How long, as a rule,, would a person suffering 
 from housemaid's knee be incapacitated ; what is the 
 maximum period ? — It would entirely depend on how 
 they are treated. This fluid collects in a bag or 
 bursa, and it may be absorbed with rest and treat- 
 ment and return again very shortly. If the whole bag 
 is taken right away it does not return and is quite 
 3ured. In that way it might be cured in, say, a 
 month. In the other way it might take 3 or 6 weeks, 
 and even then be liable to return. 
 
 7210. The worker being in the meantime incapaci- 
 tated from employment? — Yes. 
 
 7211. {Mr. Ounynghame.) This disease, I suppose, 
 ciists among all the population — not only servants, 
 but people who are used to kneeling? — Yes, it is the 
 fact of kneeling which causes it. 
 
 7212. Would you describe it as a trade disease, or 
 as a sort of tilling tihat may 'be got by anybody? — ^It 
 may be got by anybody who kneels. 
 
 7213. (Professor Allhutt.) Is it preventible by the use 
 of certain mats ? — ^Certainly. 
 
 7214. In what degree do you think ; do you think 
 they are a complete prevention? — I think it prevents 
 it to a very great extent, and I always think that those 
 housemaidrs who kneel on cushions very seldom get it, 
 whereas other people, who kneel on the bare floor, fre- 
 quently get it. 
 
 7215. Supposing in that initial stage of which you 
 spoke, when the bursa is filling with harmless fluid, 
 the person betook himself to a properly constructed 
 rrrat, would it prevent further progress of the malady, 
 do you think? — Probably it would. 
 
 7216. Do you know what is called mfner'e beat 
 knee ? — No. 
 
 7217; The Committee are disposed from the evidence 
 to draw a distinction between the miner^s beat kne» 
 and the housemaid's knee? Would that b© in accord- 
 ance with your impression ?-yI should think so. 
 
 7218. But of the disease itself in London you have- 
 no experience? — No. 
 
 7219. {Dr. Leyge.) Does housemaid's knee often go 
 on to suppuration ? — No, not often. 
 
 7220. That would prolong the illness, I suppose, for 
 some months ? — Yes, it is a formidable thing when they 
 suppurate. 
 
 7221. {Professor Allbutt.) Do you operate at once- 
 then? — Yes, we let out the matter at onee. Theni 
 of course we cannot remove the bursa. That obliter- 
 ates it, and it takes a much longer time for the patient 
 to recover. 
 
 7222. (Dr. Legge.) In Guy's Hospital, I suppose, 
 there would be cases of suppurating housemaid's knee- 
 in the course of the year? — ^^There might be, but when 
 you say housemaid's knee there may be suppuration of 
 the bursa, which may have been produced by wounds, 
 and injuries, and so forth, not necessarily following 
 on kneeling. 
 
 7223. Is the suppuration often consequent upon the- 
 tapping to let out the fluid ? — ^Yes, certainly, if it is. 
 done by unskilled people, using septic instruments, 
 and so on. 
 
 7224. It is a common treatment in cases of the kind 
 for them to be tapped ? — ^We never teachi it. I shouLS 
 strongly object to the tapping. 
 
 7225. On the ground of the danger of suppuration do. 
 you teach that they should not be opened ? — ^Y^, quit* 
 so. 
 
 7226. Does that suppuration involve sometimes 
 necrosis of the patella? — ^Yes, it may. 
 
 7227. {Chairman.) I gather from what you say that 
 cases might arise in which there may be injury to the 
 knee caused by wound and not by kneeling? — Yes. 
 
 7228. Would not that be likely to lead to confusioit 
 in some cases. Suppose housemaid's knee were sche- 
 duled under the Workmen's Compensation Act, might 
 not cases arise of claims for compensation from person* 
 who said they were suffering from housemaid's knee, 
 but whO' really had a poisoned wound in the knee? — 
 Yes. 
 
 7229. And you could not differentiate the two, could 
 you? — ^No, you could not, except from the history. 
 
 7230. You could not say from tlie symptoms merely^ 
 " This is a case of housemaid's knee," could you ?— No. 
 
 7231. {Professor Allbutt.) It would be more like a 
 beat knee, I suppose ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7232. (Dr. Legge.) That would be a very rare condi- 
 tion, would it not? — ^Yes. 
 
 7233. {Chairman.) Compared with ordinary cases of 
 housemaid's knee it would be very rare, would it?— 
 It would be very rare. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 229 
 
 TWENTY-FOURTH DAY. 
 
 Monday, 25th February 190; 
 
 MEMBEBS present: 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 Mr. Henet Ctjntnghame, c.b. 
 
 Professor Clifeoed Allbutt, e.e.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Peoeessor James A. Lindsay, m.a., m.d., called in and examined. 
 
 7234. (Chairman.) Are you Professor of Medicine oi 
 Queen's College, Belfast ? — Yes. 
 
 7235. Have you been for 23 years in practice in Bel- 
 fast?— Yes. 
 
 7236. Have you had a long experience on the hospital 
 staff as physician ? — Yes, 18 years. 
 
 7237. Have you had under your care from time to 
 time a considerable number of persons working in the 
 flax mills ? — I have. 
 
 7238. Do you consider that this trade gives rise tc 
 any speciiic trade diseases ? — Yes, not diseases peculiar 
 to the trade ; but diseases to which the trade will con- 
 duce to a certain extent. 
 
 7239. What diseases have you in mind? — Bronchitis 
 first, with its consequences, namely, emphysema fox 
 example, and disease of the bronchial tubes generally. 
 
 7240. Any other ?— Phthisis, I should say. 
 
 7241. They are diseases of the respiratory organs, are 
 they? — They are. 
 
 7242. Do you consider that these diseases can be 
 differentiated as being due to employment in com- 
 parison with similar diseases prevalent among the rest 
 of the population? — That is a matter of considerable 
 difficulty, but one can throw some light upon it, I 
 should say. If you look at these Tables I have here 
 you will find on the last page, first of all the total 
 number of cases treated in the Royal Victoria Hospital 
 of certain diseases, and then the proportion of flax 
 workers, and I think you might take it the flax workers 
 constitute about one-tentli of tihe oases approximately. 
 The first column includes all occupations, and the next 
 column the flax trade, and if you take it the flax 
 workers are about one-tenth of our patients you get 
 some idea of the relative proportion. These are in- 
 patients. 
 
 7243. (Professor Allbutt.) How many bads have you 
 in the hospital ?— 300 ; about 250 in regular occupa- 
 tion. 
 
 7244. (Chairman.) Is 10 per cent, an exact figure?— 
 No, it is not ; it is as near as I can get it. 
 
 7245. Do these tables show that on the average for 
 itihe two years, 1804 and 1905, for bronchitis, flax 
 workers are abonit one-fourth of the cases ? — ^Yes. _ That 
 gives you a certain index of the larger proportion of 
 disease amongst them. 
 
 7246. I aJso find that of gastric ulcer the flax workers 
 number aibout one-third' of the cases ? — ^Yes. We get 
 a very large proportion of gastric ulcer in Belfast, and 
 treat well on to 100 cases in a year. They are mainly 
 amongst the spinners — that is, amongst flax workers, 
 who are young women. 
 
 7247. Is there any connection between this disease 
 and the employment ? — That is a point that might be 
 debated. The connection is not very close or very 
 obvious, but the spinners suffer very much from 
 ansemia, and how far'it is conduced to by the condiiion 
 of the Workrooms is a question that might be argued. 
 They get anaemia first of all and then gastric ulcer. I 
 should not be prepared to say there is no connection 
 between the two. 
 
 7248. (Professor Allhutt.) Would you draw any dis- 
 tinction from the sexual conditions? — I should think 
 
 «0. : 
 
 7249. Are the majority of spinners women, or men ? Professor 
 — They are all women, women of an age in whom j, A. 
 gastric ulcer would be likely to occur. Lir.dsay, 
 
 7250. (Chairman.) With regard to bronchitis patients, m. a., m .d. 
 of those entered under all occupations, would a large 25 Peb. 1907. 
 proportion belong to the working classes ? — Yes, prac- 
 tically all with an occasional exception. Then heart 
 
 disease is a rather high proportion. 
 
 7251. Yes, between a sixth and a seventh ? — Yes, 
 that is probably due to rheumatism to a large ex- 
 tent. It is possible the warm damp air of the rooms 
 has some tendency to conduce to rheumatism, but it is 
 often the fault of the workers themselves, who decline 
 to adopt the precautions recommended to them. The 
 tables include an analysis of the number of flax workers 
 treated for three years, with their diseases, and give 
 the average age at which they came under treatment. 
 
 7252. (Professor Allbutt.) At what age do the 
 spinners begin to go into these close, hot rooms ? — 12 to 
 14 years of age. 
 
 7253. But rheumatic fever incidence would be a 
 little earlier than that, would it not? — It would, but 
 not in all cases. 
 
 7254. Is rheumatic fever particularly common in 
 your district? — We do not get a great deal of the very- 
 acute type. 
 
 7255. But severe isnough to affect the heart, is it 
 not? — Yes, and there is a very large proportion of heart- 
 disease in those tables. 
 
 7256. (Chairman.) Do you notice in the cases of: 
 bronchitis any symptoms peculiar to a person who has.- 
 been working in a dusty atmosphere? — I do not think 
 you could draw the line perhaps with certainty, but 
 what we call irritative bronchitis — that is, bronchitis 
 arising from some irritant in the air — does pursue a 
 course which we can describe, though it is not a 
 separate disease. 
 
 7257. Would an expert medical man, who had made 
 it his business to study the differences between the 
 different forms of bronchitis, in any given case if he 
 knew the history, be able to say whether it was due to 
 employment or was not ? — He would not unless he held 
 a post-mortem and saw the lungs after death. 
 
 7258. Do you think there are any symptoms distinc- 
 tive of meolianioal bronchitis which could be stated 
 definitely as being due to dust ? — I would say " No " to- 
 that question, although there are certain symptoms 
 which are, more characteristic of that mechanical foini 
 than bronchitis in general — for instance, spasmodic 
 cough is very marked, and the asthmatic form of 
 bronchitis is not uncommon. The coughing is rather 
 violent and occasionally it results in hsemorrhage. 
 
 7259. Have you ever had any experience of potters" 
 phthisis ? — No. 
 
 7260. Or any other form of phthisis arising from: 
 dusty occupations ? — No ; no experience of any extent. 
 Our experience, medically speaking, is that the finer 
 the particles the worse the case. For . instance, the 
 flax trade is not so deadly as the steel trade of Shef- 
 field. 
 
 7261. Would you express an opinion as to whether 
 it would be easier or more difficult to find distinctive 
 symptoms of trade disease, so to speak, in bronchitis 
 
>30 
 
 M XUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Professor 
 
 J. A. 
 Lindsiiy. 
 M.A., M.D. 
 
 25 Feb. 1907. 
 
 amongst flax workers as compared with bronchitis 
 amongst potters or steel grinders ? — My experience la 
 confined to one side of that problem, and perhaps I 
 ought not to answer that question ; I should have a 
 difficulty in answering it. 
 
 7252. Are there any particular processes in the flax 
 industry in which the workers are more liable to lung 
 troubles than others ? — Decidedly. Without going into 
 the details of the trade I think one might classify the 
 workers from the health point of view into three 
 classes ; one might take departments where dust is a 
 feature for instance — roughing, hackling, and carding. 
 Tlioiie are the coarser pro-cesses in preparing the fibre, 
 but there has been a great improvement with the 
 modern system of exhaust ventilation. That is one 
 class. Then come the hot and damp departments 
 where the air is both hot and damp ; for instance, 
 the spinning rooms and the sizing rooms. The tem- 
 perature of the average spinning rooms will range from 
 73 to 79 degrees, and the temperature of the sizing 
 room will range from 80 to 120 degrees. It is never 
 allowed to get to saturation point, because that is 
 illegal. The spinning room is damp because it is wet 
 spinning in the North of Ireland. There is a good 
 deal of moisture in the air, the floors are necessarily 
 lamp, the workers' clothes and feet get damp unleEs 
 precautions are taken. They wear mackintoshes and 
 protect their feet, and have splashboards, which 
 diminish a good deal of the amount of moisture coming 
 from the water. Then there is a third class of room, 
 a room which is hot and not damp, and the question 
 there rather is as to the purity of the air and the 
 amount of carbonic acid which is found to exceed nine 
 per 10,000 volumes pretty often. The avera;g© air con- 
 tains about four per 10,000 volumes, and if you double 
 the ordinary atmospheric average you get injurious 
 impurity. 
 
 7263. (Professor Allbutt.) Is that heat necesisary 
 for the process ; it is an accident I suppose, and 
 not essential? — No, except, of course, that light is 
 an essential ; it is not part of the trade. If you dis- 
 tinguish the departments I divide them roughly into 
 three classes — the dusty departments, the hot and 
 damp departments (spinning and sizing), and the de- 
 partments that are rather hot and not damp ; for 
 example, some of the weaving rooms. The difficulty in 
 the first case, of course, is the question of dust ; in 
 the hot and damp rooms it is largely a question of 
 girls working when in a hot atmosphere and then going 
 suddenly into the air outside, and in the hot depart- 
 ments which are not damp it is a question as to the 
 purity of the air. 
 
 7264. (Chairman.) Is there any specific trade disease 
 arising from the hot or damp rooms as compared with 
 other trades to which persons are exposed to heat and 
 damp? — No, but the spinners suffer much from 
 ordinary phthisis ; how far it is due to their occupa- 
 tion, their habits, or housing, is a question which 
 might be argued. 
 
 7265. Is it a fibroid phthisis from which they suffer ? 
 — I should say amongst those in the dusty departments 
 it IS „^ :: certain extent, but not amongst the young 
 "women where it takes the ordinary form* 
 
 7266. Should you say fibrosis of the lung was 
 definitely due to dust? — I should say duet is an im- 
 portant factor, but it is not the sole factor. 
 
 7267. Should we be entitled to say that a worker 
 engaged in a dusty occupation suffering from fibrosis of 
 the lung had contracted that disease through his em- 
 ployment? — In general terms yes, though some qualifi- 
 cation would be necessary. 
 
 7268. What qualification? — The housing of the 
 workers, which I think is a very important question. 
 
 7269. Would that give rise to fibrosis as distinct from 
 tuberculosis ? — It might make a patient liable to tuber- 
 cular infection, and the trade might determine the 
 form of the infection. A man might become tubercular 
 and his trade might tend bo produce the form of tuber- 
 culosis fibroid. 
 
 7270. Is it possible to tell with certainty whether a 
 -person is suffering from fibrosis of the lung? — It is 
 comparatively easy. I think you will agree that tha 
 first fact in a tubercular case is the specific invasion 
 of the lungs, then the result varies very greatly ; in 
 one case it takes rather an acute form, the bacilli 
 spread rapidly through the lungs, and the patient dies 
 perhaps in a few months. That is a rare form ; that is 
 ^cute tubercular phthisis. Thsn there is the second or 
 
 ordinary cpse where what we call excavation takes 
 place ; that is the usual form. Then thsre is fibrosis, 
 where the principal change of the lung is not excava- 
 tion or breaking down, but a change of the tissue into 
 a fibroid tissue. That last form runs a longer course, 
 and is a more favourable form. From the fact that 
 that is not uncommon amongst roughers and hacklers 
 it is a question how far it is due to their trade. 
 There is no doubt it is a factor, but they have 
 good resisting powers ; they are in the prime of life, 
 and the tuberculosis more often takes the form of 
 fibrosis in a patient who has good resisting power, not- 
 withstanding what his trade is. 
 
 7271. What is the incidence of phthisis of all forms 
 amongst roughers and hacklers ? — I could not say ; 
 there are no recent figures. There is a report of Dr. 
 Charles Purdon in 1875 which is alluded to in some 
 sf the Blue Books. 
 
 7272. That would be very much out of date, would 
 it not? — It would. He gave the figure as 11-1 per 
 thousand, but that is 30 years ago. The only recent 
 figures I can get are in a Blue Book of 1897, but they 
 are practically of no value because the flax trade is 
 mixed up with the cotton industry. 
 
 7273. Have the conditions of work altered in recent 
 years at all? — Notably. 
 
 7274. In what way ? — The existing system of ventila- 
 tion has constituted a revolution in the trade. 
 
 7275. (Professor Allbutt.) For how long has the 
 exisiting system of ventilation bsen in use? — It might 
 have begun 10 years ago, buit I could not be quite 
 certain. • 
 
 7276. (Chairman.) Do you think liability to diseases 
 due to dust has been thus greatly diminished? — I do. 
 That would apply more to the dusty departments than 
 to any of the others. The roughing room now with a 
 thoroughly efficient exhaust system of ventilation is 
 much freer from dust than in former times. 
 
 7277. (Mr. Cunynqhame.) With regard to "Total 
 treated " in your Table, what does that mean ? — The 
 total flax workers. 
 
 7278. So that it would show the proportion of pul- 
 monary diseases to ordinary diseases, would it? — Yes, 
 and it would include surgical cases — all cases. 
 
 7279. When we come to the last page of the tables : 
 " Patients admitted to the Royal Victoria Hospital, 
 average of two years, all occupations," does that mean 
 other than flax employees ? — Yes, that is an analysis 
 of the total number of cases of certain disease amongst 
 all occupations. 
 
 7280. Adding the whole together, bronchitis, pleurisy, 
 cardiac disease — ^would cardiac disease be a disease of 
 occupation ? — No. 
 
 7281. I suppose pleurisy and pneumonia might be? 
 — I think their relation to the trade is very slight. 
 
 7282. So that we might take bronchitis as a possible 
 one, might we ? — Yes. 
 
 7283. Pleurisy and pneumonia, no, ?.rA cardiac dis- 
 ease would be out of it ? — The relatioii lo rheumatism 
 would have to be considered — how far, for instance, 
 young girls going into the air from hot rooms would 
 contract rheumatism or heart disease. 
 
 7284. AccQrding to that ladies coming out of a play- 
 house rather thinner dressed than they ought to be 
 would be in the same position, would they not? — Yes. 
 
 7285. But you would leave out cardiac disease, I 
 suppose ? — I should not be prepared to say the trade 
 would have any very great influeiice upon it. 
 
 7286. Then take kidney disease? — I think there is 
 no special influence. 
 
 7287. And gastric ulcer?— There I think there is 
 a point ; it is very common amongst spinners who get 
 anaemia. 
 
 7288. And it arises from the anaemia, does it?— 
 There is a certain connection, but it arises very largely 
 in consequence of their diet not being proper ; they 
 live upon tea and bread. 
 
 7289. Then I come to tubercular disease of g^lands 
 and bones ? — You will notice the omission of phthisis in 
 that Table, because we do not admit phthisis cases into 
 tho Eoyal Victoria Hospital. 
 
 7290. May I say that tubercular disease of the glands 
 and bones is caused by inhaling dust ?— I put it down 
 as throwing a little light on the question inasmuch.as 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COlilMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 231 
 
 we do not get tuberculosis of the lungs, but we do of 
 the glands and bones. 
 
 7291. Does it come to this, that out of the total num- 
 ber of patients admitted, 610, 59 would have bron- 
 chitis ?— Yes. 
 
 7292. And the flax workers' proportion would be 14 
 out of 111, would it? — Yes. 
 
 7293. So that the flax workers' proportion is latlier 
 greater, but not very much greater than the whole '! — 
 Yes. 
 
 7294. The difference between the bronchitis caught 
 by the flax workers in proportion to the total number 
 is not very much greater than the difference between 
 the proportion of bronchitis caught by the ordinai-y 
 person, is it? — No. 
 
 7295. Can you give the total of all occupations 
 treated? — Our in-patients average about 3,000 a year. 
 
 7296. May I take it then that out of 3,000 59 would 
 have bronchitis ? — Yes. 
 
 7297. What is your total of flax workers? — I think 
 10 per cent., but I give that figure with some reserve. 
 
 7298. 300, do you mean? — Yes, but you will clearly 
 understand that is not a certain figure. 
 
 7299. Then, is it 59 out of 3,000 as compared with 14 
 out of 300 ?— Yes. 
 
 7300. (Chairman.) When you said 10 per cent, was 
 a provisional figure, it certainly would not be 20 per 
 cent., I suppose? — No, I think not. 
 
 7301. Might it be 15 per cent. ? — ^Hardly ; it 
 might be 12 per cent. ; I am only giving an opinion 
 because the registration is not very perfect, and the 
 workers do not always give their occupations correctly. 
 1 was struck myself with the figure when I worked it 
 out, coming to 10 per cent., because my impression was 
 it. would be higher. 
 
 7302. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Should you say that owing 
 io the position the Royal Victoria Hospital occupies 
 in the town with regard to the factories, it is quite 
 possible if we take the whole number of patients the 
 tigures might not be representative ? It might be mis- 
 'eading to represent a particular hospital as indica- 
 tive of the state of a town, I suppose? — The Royal 
 Victoria Hospital is the leading general hospital, and 
 was for a long time th© only one. There is aouother 
 one now which is an important hospital, but much 
 smaller, and I should say our experience is very 
 typical of the town, for amongst others reasons for 
 this, that the workers pay a small sum weekly to the 
 Royal Victoria Hospital ; it is the custom to pay a 
 penny a week, and they have the right to treatment, so 
 that I think our experience is absolutely typical. 
 
 7303. But it is possible to say sometimes, is it 
 not, that particular classes of workpeople get into the 
 habit of going to one more than the other or going to 
 hospital at all? — I ise3 your point, but I think you 
 may take it our experience is typical. 
 
 7304. At all events there is, is there .not, a certain 
 amount more bronchitis among the flax spinners than 
 amongst the ordinary people ; hoiw much it seems a 
 little difficult to say ? — Yes ; I should say the question 
 as to how far you credit anaemia or gastric ulcer 
 amongst spinners to the trade is a very arguable point 
 that is not quite clear. 
 
 7305. It appears that there has bean an improve- 
 ment of late years in the ventilation of these rooms, a 
 good deal owing to the regulations which have been 
 enforced? Is that shown on these tables you have 
 put in?-^I do not think it is, but those tables all 
 refer to the improved epoch. 
 
 7306. But they also include people, do they not, who, 
 although they got ill in 1904 and 1906 had been getting 
 ill for years ? — Tru^, but I think the improved venti- 
 lation goes back much further than three years. You 
 ■would require tables of twenty years to have a basis 
 M comparisofn. But our hospital has been only three 
 and a half years open. The former hospital was a 
 ^ery different institution, and a comparison between 
 me two would not be just. 
 
 f/?^- -Do you know the habits of these young women. 
 « has s.truck me that when you see the clothing hang- 
 ing up in tha ante-rooms and the clothes they come in 
 'ney are totally inadequate ? — Yes, the employers say 
 that. 
 
 7308. They come in with damp clothes from the rain, 
 
 and when they leave they put thsm on, and instead of 
 wearing really strong friezes, something like an agri- 
 culturist would wear, they wear the most miserable 
 clothing, do they not? — A spinner is at work all d.iy 
 long in an atmosphere of 78 or 79 degrses and very 
 damp, and will go out into an atmosphere, it mav be 
 of 30 or 32. f ' J 
 
 7309. And her clothing is very wretched, is it no: 1— 
 She may have a ishawl round her head and generally 
 De insufficiently clothed. 
 
 7310. Irs it your impression that they do not know 
 how to clothe themselves?—! believe that they am 
 careless, but there is more trouble taken now to 
 instruct them than in former times, and employers 
 show a great desire to put things right as far as they 
 can. 
 
 7311. And with regard to food they do not nourish 
 themselves properly, do they?— I should think care- 
 lessness with regard to food cr'2ates a good deal of th-e 
 gastric ulcer. 
 
 7312. (Professor Allbidt.) I notice that of the 
 roughi3rs and haoklers of whom the number is 
 only 41, one in four have bronchitis and emphysema, 
 according to your table? — Yes. 
 
 7313. Then going to another extreme, and taking 
 the doffers, who are practically not engaged in dusty 
 occupations, and the stitchers who are not engaged in 
 dusty occupations, I find figures with regard to doffers 
 with very slight dust ara 1 in 19, and the stitchers 
 numbering 90 come out at 1 in 40 ? — Yes. 
 
 7314. We must admit, of course, that these figures 
 are not very large, yet it strikes me as a rather remark- 
 able result that the figures as to those people who are 
 not exposed to dust are 1 in 40, and as to the people 
 who are exposed very slightly to dust they are 1 in 20, 
 and then, coming to tha roughers and hacklers, we 
 find 1 in 4 ?— Yes. 
 
 7315. Are, the Committee justified in placing some 
 kind of reliance on those figures ? — I think so, but I 
 would not wish at all to press them. 
 
 7316. But may the figures be taken as broadly indi- 
 cative of the state of things ? — Yes. 
 
 7317. That would come to something like ten of the 
 hacklers with bronchitis to one of those not exposed to 
 dust at all, would it not? — Yes. 
 
 7318. Taking the spinners, what do you think is 
 the prevalence of phthisis among them? — It is high. 
 
 7319. Higher even than bronchitis and emphysema ? 
 — Yes. You see very young women of 15 to 25 are 
 rather liable to tubei-cular afiection, amd I should say 
 their occupation affects them. 
 
 7320. In the spinning room I suppose there is no 
 dust? — Hardly any. In the carding room, where 
 there is a good deal of dust, they have jets of steam 
 playing in order to carry the dust off. 
 
 7321. As far as dust is concerned, do not you think 
 we might ignore all these cases, except roughers and 
 hacklers, as likely to show any decisive injury 
 from dust? — I suppose you might. One could 
 not quite exclude them perhaps, but it would be a 
 small factor. Roughers, hacklers, and carders, 1 
 think, might be included in the same category, but I 
 should like to say with regard to them that the 
 modern improvements are efficacious. In the better 
 class of mill the conditions are fairly favourable now. 
 
 7322. Do the modern improvements for the removal 
 of dust favourably affect the hacklers, roughers, and 
 carders in the same measure as the other employees 
 or more so? Do they reduce the dust to a moderate 
 amount? — I would say slight. I was speaking for 
 example to a man the other day who was apparently 
 in the most vigorous health, a rougher. I asked him 
 how long he had been roughing, and he told me 41 
 years. He was in good health, and came in my way 
 quite by accident, and was not a patient. 
 
 7323. There is a large personal element of suscepti- 
 bility in these maladies, is there not? — ^Yes. 
 
 7324. With regard to the duration of incapacity I 
 find as a matter of fact that the time these patients 
 stop in hospital ranges from three to five weeks. With 
 regard to the age at which a patient comes under 
 treatment I thought it might be of value to give the 
 average age at which patients seek treatment. 
 
 7325. (Chairman.) What do you think is the genaral 
 acre? — Taking for instance bronchitis, the age is 45, 
 
 I'rofesaor 
 
 J. A. 
 
 Lindsay, 
 
 M.A., M.D. 
 
 2.-) Feb. 1907. 
 
232 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,: 
 
 Profejisur 
 
 j: A. 
 
 Lindsay, 
 M.A., M U. 
 
 25 Feb. 1907 
 
 for a rougher and hackler. They begin the business 
 in early life, and if the average ag3 is 46 when they 
 seek treatment the probability is that a, great many 
 of them would seek it at a later age. 
 
 7326. (Professor Allbuit.) Bronchitis and emphysema 
 falls upon spinners on an average 15 years 
 earlisr, does it not, than it does on the roughers and 
 hacklers? — Yes. Spinners are young women, you see, 
 and are not good subjects for resisting. 
 
 7327. Does the failure at the later age point to its 
 bsing the accumulative effect of the trade? — In some 
 respects, yes. 
 
 7328. Do hacklers, roughers, and carders become 
 incapacitated in consequence of bronchitis or fibroid 
 phthisis ? — In some cases they become totally incapaci- 
 tated, but we only get th« temporary aind curable 
 cases. I think perhaps you had better take the opinion 
 of Dr. Hall upon that point. In a bronchitic case, 
 taking a patient who was totally incapacitated, his 
 expectation of life would be about five years, and in a 
 case of phthisis possibly about two. That would only 
 be an impression. 
 
 7329. With regard to heart disease and rheumatic 
 fever the only point of importance would be whether 
 you found the age incidence in rheumatic fever, which 
 is a disease rather of youth, to be high, say, still high 
 after the age of 15 ; wiietlier the mean age of the whole 
 number of cases of rheumatic fever is hi'^er beoanise of 
 a larger number of people attacked after -15 years of 
 age? — I should ibe rather inclined to reply in the nega- 
 tive, but I have no information on the subject. 
 
 7330. Is the percentage of tuberculous phthisis high 
 in Belfast? — Very high. I have some facts with regard 
 to the returns as a whole. 
 
 7331. 'Can you give the percentage, omitting the flax 
 industry? — No, our general death rate from phthisis 
 is 3.1 per 1,000, and the English average is about 2 per 
 1,000. The trade is supposed to .be one of the causes 
 of the high rate, but the question is Whether it is a 
 large cause. Our total death rate is 20 per 1,000, and 
 rather anore than a third is due to respiratory diseases, 
 which is a high proportion. 
 
 7332. Have you formed any opinion, either from the 
 age or constitution of the patients, or otherwise, 
 whether an outbreak of pulmonary tuberculosis is 
 often determined by the presence of dust? — I think it 
 is a factor, but I doubt if it is a dominant factor. 1 
 was more struck with it amongst spinners than 
 roughers, but of course the age would have something 
 to do with that. 
 
 7333. Amongst the spinners is there a large propor- 
 tion of young women? — They are all youngish women. 
 
 7334. Gastric ulcer is a disease frequent in young 
 svomen, is it not? — Yes. 
 
 7335. Therefore you could not rely much, could you, 
 on its prevalence amongst them ? — No, I think not. 
 
 7336. (Chairman.) With reference to the questions 
 -which Professor Clifford Allbutt put to you with regard 
 to the figures you have handed in, do they show the 
 number of cases of particular diseases in proportion 
 to the number treated in the hospital, not in propor- 
 tion to the number of persons employed ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7337. Do they show that of tbe roughers and hacklers 
 one in five of the cases treated wens for bronchitis and 
 
 ^emphysema ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7338. But taking the spinners only 1 in 19 ? — Yes. 
 
 7339. That might prove, might it, that bronchitis 
 -was less prevalent amongst spinners than amongst 
 roughers and hacklers, but it may prove that spinners 
 suffer from a number of other complaints and come 
 to the hospitial for treatment. For instance, I see 
 there were 44 cases of gastric ulcer, and 18 cases of 
 ancemia, whilst amongst the . roughers and hacklers 
 there were only two cases of gastric ulcer and no 
 case of ansemia. Therefore the fact that the spinners 
 suffer from gastric ulcer and ansemia more than the 
 men would show a lower proportion of bronchitis 
 amongst them in proportion to the total number of 
 cases treated, although as a matter of fact there may 
 be as many cases of bronchitis amongst the total 
 nnmber employed ? — That question tends to vitiate 
 medical statistics a good deal. But I should hardly 
 accept your conclusion. 
 
 7340. But it would be affected by that, would it 
 not ?— Yes. 
 
 7341. Could you supply the Committee- subsequently 
 with the total number of persons employed in each' 
 of these processes in Belfast? — ^I might be able to. 
 I made enquiries what the total number of flax workers 
 was, but I did not make enquiries about the different 
 numbers in the different departments, but I think I 
 could- get you the approximate numbers. As far as I 
 could make out there are about 35,000 to 40,000 flax 
 workers including all processes. 
 
 7342. Similarly -with regard to the figures of age, to 
 compare the average ages of the patients in the dif- 
 ferent processes you ought really to compare them not 
 with one another but with the average age of the 
 persons employed in those processrss. For instance, if 
 the spinners are young women, and the roughers and ' 
 hacklers are men of all ages, and you have brandhitis 
 in all of them, you would expect to find the bronchitis 
 at a lower age amongst the women than the men, would 
 you not? — It is well known that the hacklers and 
 roughers are people of all ages and the spinners young 
 women, and you must allow for that obviously. 
 
 7343. Have you any figures which you can supply 
 showing what is the average age of the persons 
 employed in these different classes? — No, but I could 
 obtain them for you. You would like, I understand, 
 roughly, the proportion of the different classes. 
 
 7344. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Can you give the Com- 
 mittee the total number of the flax workers treated 
 in your hospital for all diseases for two years ? — 'If you 
 will allow me to communicate with you a little later 
 on I could give it. The 10 per cent, is, I believe, 
 approximately correct. 
 
 7345. (Professor Allbutt.) Does not it really come to 
 this — can. you say as an expert whether such of 
 the flax workers as are exposed to dust present a 
 higjher average of irritative bronchitis than the other 
 part of the population ? — Of that I have no doubt. 
 
 7346. (Dr. Legge.) The necessity for these figures 
 would disappear, I suppose, if the flax workers were 
 examined medically, would it mot. You would get th'S 
 facts in another way? — Yes. 
 
 7347. Do you know of an exhaustive enquiry in- 
 volving the examination of 12,000 flax workers by 
 medical men that has been made in Belgium ? — No, I 
 do not. 
 
 7348. Would you agree with the conclusion arrived 
 at in the Belgian inquiry that as regardsi the men the 
 most injurious processes in the order in which, they are 
 most injurious are hackling, carding, spinning, drying 
 and preparing — ^that is amongst the men? — I do not 
 unders'band men being engaged in spinning. 
 
 7349. Would that be the order in which it would 
 appeal to you, hackling, carding, spinning, drying, and 
 preparing ? You have ali-eady said amongst the 
 hacklers, roughers and carders you get the most dusty 
 processes ? — I would acquiesce in that order if you deal 
 with irritative bronchitis alone, but if you are dealing 
 with tuberculosis there might be some question. 
 
 7350. This is dealing with general diseases ?— No. 
 We regard spinners as the least healthy class. 
 
 7351. Coming to women, they regard carding as the 
 most dangerous, then spinning, then preparing, and 
 finally -winding? — I sihould agree with that. Oarding 
 is undoubtedly the occupation amongst women which 
 cause most irritative bronchitis, and spinners suffer 
 from tubercular diseases. 
 
 7352. The most frequent illnesses among women were 
 found to bs first diseases of the alimentary system, then 
 the nervous system, thirdly rheumatic, and fourthly 
 respiratory ; would you agree with -that ? — That would 
 not be our experience at Belfast. I should put the 
 respiratory diseases higher. 
 
 73S3-6. And those of the longest doiration are given 
 first as those of the alimentary system, secondly the 
 respiratory system, and lastly rheumatism. Would you 
 agree with that?— Yes, I think I shto'uld perhaps agree 
 with that. 
 
 7357. Do you know anything of a condition known 
 as mill fever? — ^I have heard of it. 
 
 7358. Do you see cases of it ?— No ; Dr. Purdon has 
 alluded to it in his report. 
 
 7359. Do you see eczema amongst the workers?— 
 Yes. 
 
 7360. What form does it take ?— It is not extensive. 
 
 7361. Does it lead to incapacity for work ?— The only 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 233 
 
 form I see to any extent in practice is the eczematous 
 ulcer ; they do not get it in their hands much. 
 
 7362. Can you say deflnitsly that that is due to their 
 employment? — ^I think that varicose veins are partly 
 the result of long standing, and they cause ulcers in 
 the legs sometimes, but*that might apply to any trade 
 of cour&3. 
 
 7363. I was not thinking of varicose veins but of 
 
 any definite eczema whicih occurred to the doSers, for Professor - 
 instance ?—Nto, one sees a case occasionally which is J.a. 
 not of much importance. Lindsay, 
 
 7364. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you find flax particles ma^.d. 
 in tlhe spuitum of many cases of chronic amonest 0=; tj-u iqi't 
 hacklere ?— Yes, I think so. "" '^^^^^■ 
 
 7365. And of course after death in the lungs? — 
 Yes. 
 
 Mr. Robert Hall, l.h.c.p., l.e.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 7366. (Chairman.) Are you in practice in Belfast as 
 a medical.man? — Yes. 
 
 7367. Are you medical of&cer of health ? — "So, I am 
 medical officer to the infirmary. 
 
 7368. Have you a general practice as well ? — ^I have 
 a general practioa as well. 
 
 7369. How long have you been in Belfast ? — All my 
 medical life — ^21 years. 
 
 7370. Have you had experience of a large number 
 of cases among flax workers? — Yes. 
 
 7371. Have you had some thousands of cases through 
 your hands? — Yes. For a large portion of the time 
 my experience has been purely hospital experience, 
 but between times I had a dispensary and came into 
 close contact with patients in their own homes ; that 
 was 14 years ago. 
 
 7372. Do you consider diseases of the respiratory 
 organs are more prevalent amongst flax workers -Wian 
 amongst other people? — My statistics would rather 
 provo so. I have a table here giving certain figures. 
 
 7373. What is the conclusion to be drawn from it? 
 — That a large proportion of flax workers are troubled 
 with bronchitis and also with phthisis. That is shown 
 in column. 
 
 7374. Column 1 gives the occupations — (males) ; 
 weavers, roughers, hacklers, spinners, drawers, yarn 
 dressers, yam bundlers, machine boys ; (females), 
 weavers, rovers, spinners, doffers, drawers, reelers, 
 preparers, winders, spreaders and carders. 
 
 7375. Have you any statistics showing in the first 
 place the proportion of cases of these diseases to the 
 total number of persons employed in these proossses, 
 and in the next place the proportionate number of 
 cases of these diseasss among the population generally ? 
 — ^I did not take any particular note of the number, 
 but these cases, 151 plus 96, represent the total number 
 of flax workers suffering from chest affections that 
 came under my care during the year 1906, that is out 
 of 352 workers. The total number of cases treated ia 
 my wards during the year was 3,800. 
 
 7376. Were they persons of all occupations? — ^Yes. 
 
 7377. Roughly spsaking two-thirds of the cases 
 amongst the flax workers you had to deal with were 
 cases of disease of the respiratory system, were they? 
 — Quite so. 
 
 7378. What would you say roughly would be the 
 proportion among the rest of the population ? — ^Hardly 
 quite so high as that. 
 
 7379. Does the bronchitis from which flax workers 
 suffer show any symptoms which would enable you 
 to differentiate it from bronchitis amongst other 
 people? — ^No, not in my experience. 
 
 7380. Supposing you had in your hospital two 
 workers, one of whom was engaged in a non-dusty 
 occupation, say a railway man, and the other was 
 engaged as a rougher in a flax mill, both of them suffer- 
 ing from bronchitis, would you expect to find _ a 
 different form of bronchitis in the rougher to that in 
 the railway man ? — It would all depend upon the stage. 
 In the early stage there would not be any difference, 
 but the bronchitis in the rougher would be much more 
 likely to leour, and the more frequently it recurred 
 the more persistent the attack woiuld be, and by and 
 by he would be suffering from chronic bronchitis, that 
 IS to say, he would have bronchitic sounds in the chest 
 all the time, and ultimately he would develop an 
 emphysematous condition. That condition is more pre- 
 valent amongst flax workers at a late stage than it is 
 amongst ordinary workers. 
 
 7381. If you knew the history of a case from the 
 beginning, would you be able at any stage to say that 
 the illness was due to the dusty occupation? — No, I 
 
 419 
 
 do not think you could. I do not think you would Mr, B. Hull, 
 be justified in saying it was due to the dusty occupa- l.k.c.p , 
 tion. You would know that the dusty occupation was a L.R.C.S. ' 
 
 contributing cause, but from an ordinary examination 
 
 of the chest in the early stages you could not tell any 
 difference. The emphysematous condition is much 
 more likely to begin earlier in life with people working 
 at a dusty occupation, as I say. 
 
 7382. But supposing a case cams to you in the later 
 stages would you be able to say it was due to the occu- 
 pation ? — Probably, if you got a history of the case for 
 years. 
 
 7383. In the earlier stages would a man be incapaci 
 tated from his work? — He may be temporarily. 
 
 7384. For how long a time? — My average gives me 
 two months in cases of bronchitis. 
 
 7385. In the later stages might he be incapacitated 
 all through the winter perhaps ? — Yes, depending 
 entirely on the severity of the winter. 
 
 7386. And ultimately he may be prevented from 
 working altogether, I suppose? — Ultimately he may 
 be prevented from working altogether. The average 
 age at which the bronchitic cases came under my 
 notice was 44| years, and the average age at which the 
 phthisis cases came under treatment was 31 years. 
 
 7387. Do you generally find phthisis among the 
 roughers and hacklers or amongst the spinners ?— 
 Chiefly among the hacklers and spinners. 
 
 7383. Are the spinners as a class younger than the 
 roughers and hacklers ? — Yes. 
 
 7389. Therefore whatever disease you find amongst 
 them you would oxpect to find at an earlier age than 
 the diseases prevalent amongst the other classes, would 
 you? — Generally speaking the average age of spinners 
 suffering from bronchitis is 40, and the average age 
 of spinners suffering from phthisis is 30. The average 
 age of hacklers suffering from bronchitis is 532, and 
 for phthisis 44^. These are cases of temporary in- 
 capacity. The ages of the hacklers range from 24 to 
 75 ; the ages of the spinners range from 19 to 70. 
 
 7390. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Are hacklers particularly 
 subject to phthisis ? — My impression is that they are. 
 
 7391. What figures can yoti bring to show that? — I 
 can let you have the total number of chest diseases 
 treated 'at the infirmary and the number of workers. 
 
 7392. May I take it that there is a good deal of 
 phthisis and bronchitis in Belfast? — Yes, a good deal 
 of phthisis and bronchitis in Belfast. 
 
 7393. Above the average of Ireland in general?— 
 Yes. 
 
 7394. To what do you attribute that tendency in 
 Belfast ? — First the climate, secondly I think the occu- 
 pation, thirdly, diatetics, and fourthly the hygienic 
 arrangement. 
 
 7396. You mean that the people do not live in a 
 sanitary way? — They do not live in a sanitary way, 
 and they do not take proper nourishment, they drink 
 too mnch tea, and I think in a small percentage of 
 cases alcohol contributes. 
 
 7396. Are they badly clad ? — Yss. For instance the 
 spinners stay in a wet hot room, and in the winter 
 time come out into the cold with only a shawl thrown 
 over their heads and shoulders, with their chests 
 uncovered. 
 
 7397. Taking the hacklers, who have a good deal of 
 phthisis, how much of that phthisis would be due to 
 dust and ho^ much of it would be due to general 
 causes ? — I think the dust would probably be the ex- 
 citing cause — first the neglected bronchitis — not taking 
 proper care in the earlier stag3s, either of bronchitis, 
 or when they began to feel the effects of phthisis, with 
 
 2 G 
 
234 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 Mr. H. Hall, 
 . L.R.C. P., 
 L.R.C.S. 
 
 •25 Feb. 1907. 
 
 '■he result that the person is not abb to battle with 
 ^he disease. 
 
 7398. What care would you have them take for in- 
 stance in the earlier stages? — To C6as3 the work 
 altogether temporarily it might be, for a few months. 
 
 7399. And to wrap up better and to take better 
 nutriment? — Yes, and to be educated how to live. 
 The mill workers' houses generally have not a window 
 open ; they are afraid of air according to my 
 experience. 
 
 7400. And for people in that condition the host thing 
 would be as much air as possible, would it not? — A.« 
 much as possible. 
 
 7401. (Professor Allhutt.) Do these people adopt any 
 preventive measures, such as respirators and so on? — 
 They will not wear them. 
 
 7402. (Mr. Cunynghame.) At all events at present 
 your figures seem to show that there is amongst 
 hacklers rather an abnormal amount of bronchitis and 
 phthisis, but yo'U do not show the quantum ?— Y(» 
 
 7403. But your impression is that the whole thing 
 is getting much better in Belfast, is it not ? — Yes, that 
 is my impression ; we do not get bronchitis of such a 
 severe type as we did. 
 
 7404. And as far as occupations are concerned the 
 mills at all events are getting healthier? — All the 
 mills I have been through appear to be wonderfully 
 healthy. 
 
 7405. Looking at the mills, so far as you saw them, 
 would you be rather surprised to find tbsy were giving 
 the people bronchitis ? — Yes ; you would say the mills 
 could not be entirely the cause, that there must be 
 some oth'sr contributing element. 
 
 7406. (Br. Legqe.) You laid emphasis in your 
 evidence as to the difficulty in the earlier sitage of 
 distinguishing between bronchitis due to d'ust and 
 ordinary bronchitis, though you said that in the later 
 stages you might. How many years does it taike before 
 the earlier stage passes into a well defined later stage 
 when you can recognise it? — The average age of total 
 incapacity is 44| years. You do not generally find a 
 patient sufiering from ordinary bronchitis incapaci- 
 tated at anything like so early a stage as that. 
 
 7407. What is the length of total incapacity? — The 
 duration range of the illness is 1 to 15 years of total 
 incapacity in bronchitis. 
 
 7408. Fifteen years would be an unusual time, would 
 it not ? — I think so ; the average duration I should 
 think would be five to six years. My figures give me 
 five years and six months, but the extreme range as I 
 say is 1 to 15 years in bronchitis. The duration range 
 in phthisis is 1 to 6 years, and the average duration 
 is two years and five months. Of course you tind 
 bronchitis and phthisis associated nearly all the time, 
 but phthisis later becomes the predominant symptom. 
 
 7409. Are the symptoms you get bronchitis and 
 emphysema? — Bronchitis first and then ultimately 
 emphysema. 
 
 7410. Do you recognise definite fibroid phthisis aj 
 due to the inhalation of dust? — My experience of the 
 mill workers is that they very rarely g.:t fibroid 
 phthisis, and if they do it practically has been due 
 to other causes than dust — badly resolved pneumonia 
 or other causes of that nature. 
 
 7411. You do not recogniss the bronchitis condition 
 as being a stage in the fibroid condition? — I do not, 
 not with mill workers. 
 
 7412. Have you made many post mortem examina- 
 tions ?— Yes, I have seen a good number. 
 
 7413. Would you describe the typical condition of 
 thi3 lungs of a flax worker who had been a chronic 
 sufferer ? — The lung is emphysematous in the majority 
 of cases when they are advanced in years, it is black 
 and very much discoloured owing to carbon, I suppose, 
 a/ud ocoaeionally there is a dilated bronchus. That is 
 not the case in all oases ; I should say in not more than 
 4 per cent, would you have dilated bronchi, and the 
 remaining portion of the lung would be full of mucous. 
 
 7414. When you cut into it with the knife what do 
 you find ? — ^It is pretty sodden, but not gritty. 
 
 7415. Microscopically, what do you find? — I havo 
 not examined microscopically at all. 
 
 7416. And you do not know whether there is fibrosis? 
 — 1 do not ; it is not perceptible. At a later stage 
 there is dilatation of the right side of the heajrt. 
 
 7417-8. Are you familiar vrath forms of phthisis in 
 wliiah you do not find tubercle bacilli? — Occasionally 
 you have to look for a long time before you get the 
 bacilli, that is although, you have definite signs. 
 
 7419. Do you mean that you have symptoms of 
 phthisis, and that you look from time to time OT«r a 
 period of months and do ndt find bacilli? — No, it is 
 not a condition like that, it is merely the difficulty of 
 finding them in the quantity of expectoration. I may 
 tell you that the cases are not diagnosed as phthisis in 
 this table till proved to be so. 
 
 7420. Is the subject of mechanical bronchitis due 
 to flax dust much discussed amongst medical men?— 
 I do not think it is ; they take it for granted with 
 regard to a flax worker. 
 
 7421. (Professor Allbutt.) Speaking as a physician 
 examining an individual patient, I understand you 
 wo aid siay to ome working in dust and v/iio had begun 
 to siufibr from bronchitis, " You ought to lie up for some 
 weeks or months lest you should ultimately become 
 incapacitated " ? — Quite so. 
 
 7422. Would you be prepared to say in an early 
 case of this kind that the bronchitis was so far defi- 
 nitely the result of the occupation that it might be 
 regarded as a trade incapacitation ? — No ; I would not 
 be prepared to say so, though my impression might 
 be so. 
 
 7423. In a question as to who must bear the cost 
 you would not be prepared to testify against the 
 employer? — I do not think it would be acting 
 straightly if you were to be emphatic on tiie subject. 
 
 Mr. Richard Jones, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. B. .Jones, 7424. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Have you some experience 
 M.D. ' with regard to dissases amongst people working in 
 slate quarries ? — Yes. 
 
 7425. Where was that acquired? — At Blaenau 
 Festiniog, North Wales. 
 
 7426. Have you practised there as a medical prac- 
 titioner? — ^Yes. 
 
 7427. Have you been a good deal employed by the 
 workers there? — ^I am the workmen's doctor. 
 
 7428. Do you act for the owners as well occasionally ? 
 — ^No, I only act in any emergency. The owners have 
 a hospital for accidents which they support entirsly, 
 but the men pay me. The men pay the doctor so much 
 per month. 
 
 7429. And the owners only pay for the keep and 
 the nursing in the hospital, I suppose? — ^Yes. 
 
 7430. Have you written some papers upon this 
 subject? — Yes, I read a paper which embodies the 
 evidence I gave befors the Merioneth Commission in 
 1895. 
 
 7431. Will you kindly show the Committee the 
 
 evidence in the Appendix to the Report of that Com- 
 mission which yoxi prepared ? Does it show the death 
 rate among quarrymen to be higher than that of the 
 average population of the district ? — 'That table refers 
 to the age of death. It is lowest amongst those 
 employed in the slate mills. 
 
 7432. Do slate quarries include mills and all kinds 
 of employment ?— Yes. Those employed in the milk 
 where most of the dust is to be found have a less 
 average age at death than most of the workers. 
 
 7433. The figures are : — Quarriers 47, rock men 
 working underground 48, labourers 54, engine drivers, 
 platelayers and weighers 60? — Yes. 
 
 7434. So that your conclusion is that the ■sngine 
 drivers, platelayers and weighers have a longer liis 
 than the quarriers ? — T'hat is so. 
 
 7435. That is including de=th from accident, is it? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7436. If we exclude death from accident do you find 
 the same proportion ? — Yes. Those working in the 
 slate mills have a less average age at death. 
 
 7437. And is the difference more striking of Iste 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 235 
 
 years than in the previous years? — ^Yes, I took an 
 average of ten years. 
 
 7438. How do you account for the fact that these 
 statistics vary so much, and that in some years the 
 quarriers have nearly the same death age as others, 
 and in other years it i^ very different ? — It is rather 
 difficult to explain, but I think it is partly accounted 
 for by the fact that we have epidemics of pneumonia 
 in our district. Tn 1889 there was a very severe 
 epidemic of pneumonia which mav have helped to 
 vary the figures. 
 
 7439. (Professor Allbutt.) Was that an infectious 
 pneoimonia ? — Yes. 
 
 7440. (Mr. Cunynghame.) And in that year the death 
 age of the enginemen went dovm I see ? — Yes. 
 
 7441. And the year 1891 is a ibad year, is it not? — 
 Yes. There is no doubt that pneumonia is a very 
 prevalent disease amongst quarrymen. It seems to 
 attack men who are employed in the mills and the 
 rock men. 
 
 7442. But when you get epidemic years the figures 
 are much the same, are they not ? — I have not thought 
 about it in that light. 
 
 7443. That rather seems to show, does it not, that 
 whatever weight is to d© attached to the dusty occu- 
 pation as a cause of shortening life, at all events a con- 
 siderable portion of it is due to other causes and not 
 connected with dust? — I quite agree with you, yes. 
 
 7444. Would you say that the occupation of rock 
 quarrying and employment in the slate mills was an 
 occupation that decidedly exposed people to the danger 
 of phthisis ? — ^Yes, I think so. If you turn further on 
 you will find tables dealing with the question of 
 phthisis by itself. 
 
 7445. The number of deaths, from iphithisiis oujt of 
 1,000 in the case of quarriers I see is 236 ? — Yes, that 
 is over 14 years of age, at which age they are admitted 
 to the quarry. 
 
 7446. But among look men and miners it is only 140 
 deaths, per 1,000 ?— Yes. 
 
 7447. And with labourers it is only 77?— Yes. 
 
 7478. And with othirs of all kinds it is only 40 ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 7449. For what years are these statistics? — ^That is 
 an average of 10 years from 1883 to 1892. 
 
 7460. Showing that the deaths from phthisis are far 
 more frequent among quarriers than wiey are among 
 other classes of the population? — ^I do not say that 
 esactly. ^ 
 
 7451. Than amongst others emiployed at the mines? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7452. Turning to Taible 9, of deaths from phthisis 
 among those not employed at slate quarries, we have 
 farmers, 70 only?— Yes. 
 
 7453. But tihen we get imerchants and grocers, which 
 come to 230, which is very nearly ai& bad as the worst 
 class of quarriers? — ^Quite so, biut amongst those may 
 be men who have left the quarries, who have retired 
 through bad health out of the quarry, men who would 
 be classified as coal merchants and, possibly, any other 
 occupation than quarrying, though 'they may have been 
 quarriers up to say 40 or 60 years of age. 
 
 7454. iStill, on the other hand, there may be rockmen 
 »nd miners who have gone into those professions which 
 would to a certain extent neutralise that figure ? — ^Yes ; 
 but, as a matter of fact, this figure of 236 is higher 
 than the average figure amongst farmers. 
 
 7455. Then you give masons, joiners, shoemakers, 
 bakers, and stonecutters, which isi a very high figure ? 
 —Yes, (but not so high as the 236. 
 
 7456. Among females the number of deaths from 
 phthisis varies in an extrawrdinary way, does it not f — 
 Yes. 
 
 7457. In 1890 it was 246, higher than the worst year 
 of the quarriers, and two years afterwards it sunk to 
 144?_Yes. Quite so. 
 
 7458. Would one chiefly rely on Table 8 in endeavour- 
 ing to establish the fact that quarriers have more 
 tendency to phthisis than other people employed in the 
 mineP—Quit© bo. 
 
 . 7489. Supposing one examined tiho separate years 
 instead of taking the total, should not we find the 
 figures inclined to vary ? — ^Yes, I am certain you would, 
 419 
 
 because on thinking over it now I find a number of men 
 in my place suflEering from chronic phthisis— more thar 
 I have seen. 
 
 7460. Even though the conditions of health are im 
 proving ?— Yes. And still phthisis is there. 
 
 7461. And not diminishing? — I do not think it is 
 diminishing; it is about the same; the rate is some- 
 thing like 1-7 or 1-8 per 1,000, which is high. 
 
 7462. Have you ever held any post-mortems on these 
 menp — No, no post-mortem has ever been held; we 
 depend entirely on clinical examination. There is not 
 a single case where all these conditions have been 
 verified by post-mortem. 
 
 7463: (Professor Allbutt.) There is strong local pre- 
 judice against it, is there not ?— Yes. A main, died last 
 week, and I tried my best to get a post-mortem ex- 
 amination, but there was no chance of getting one. 
 
 7464. (Mr. Cunynghame.) In Table 15 in the Appen- 
 dix to the report on Comparative Mortality you get 
 amongst males in England and Wales a figure of 220 
 per 1,000 deaths, do you not, from phthisis ? — Yes. 
 
 7465. 308 amongst stone masons and slate quarriers ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7466. And 204 amongst slat© quarriers, which are 
 rather less than amongst all males in England ? — Yes, 
 that is taking slate quarriers only. 
 
 7467. And the Festiniog non-quarriers are much over 
 the average, how do you account for that? — Because, 
 as I have said, they are li'en who' have left the quarries 
 and are put down as coal merchants, shopkeepei's, and 
 BO on. 
 
 7468. How do you account for the fact that the 
 Fesitiniog elate quarriers, have a less average than the 
 average of all England ? — It does work out in that way, 
 but the figure includes the whole of the quarrymen, 
 not the men working in slate dust only. 
 
 7460. But it is curious that taking the men as a 
 whole they are positively more free from phthisis than 
 the average of the population, are they not? — Yes, 
 quite so, as a whole they die less from phthisis than 
 other inhabitants, but there may be the explanation 
 of the men leaving the quarries and being classified 
 otherwise. 
 
 7470. It would be difiicult tO' put down phthisis as 
 a disease arising from the occupation if upon the whole 
 the figure is less than the average population, would it 
 not ? — Quite so, but that figure, of course, refers to all 
 the quarrymen. 
 
 7471. Then taking quarrying as a whole, you cannot 
 say that phthisis is a specific disease arising from it, 
 can you? — No; only amongst the particular class. 
 
 7472. What is the particular process of slate quarry- 
 ing which is particula-rly likely to produce phthisis ? — 
 The men who are employed in the large slate mills. 
 
 7473. (Professor Allbutt.) By phthisis do you mean 
 tuberculous consumption? — It includes all forms of 
 ph thi'Sii s— every thing. 
 
 7474. Dust bronchitis and emphysema .f — No, it does 
 not include emphysema or bronchitis. 
 
 7475. Do you recognise such a thing as dust bron- 
 chitis ? — I do not think so. 
 
 7476. We may agree broadly on some name for 
 this discussion ? — Fibroid phthisis would include it. 
 
 7477. Tuberculous phthisis and dust phthisis are in- 
 cluded, are they ? — Yes. 
 
 7478. (Mr. Cunynghame.) But that does not come 
 under the head of quarriens in Table 8, does it? — ^Yes. 
 
 7479. What is the operation in the slate mills. What 
 is the difference between quarrying and being employed' 
 in the slate mills ?— Quarrying means getting the stone 
 in bi<J blocks from the quarries, after which it is sent 
 out on lorries. The blocks are, perhaps, three or four 
 or five yeards long, and two or three feet m depth. 
 These are brought to the slate mills, where they are- 
 split up into smaller pieces, put on the sawing tables, 
 and sawn into different lengths. They are then split 
 up with chisels into about one fourth or eighth of an-. 
 im;h. .After thaib they are put under the dressing 
 machine and dressed by men who stand by the machine,. 
 and then they are put by and are ready for use on the. 
 roof. 
 
 7480. They make roof slates, and I suppose they 
 make slates for urinals and such like ? — ^Yes. 
 
 2 G 2 
 
 Mr 
 
 E. Jo 
 Jl.D. 
 
 iS, 
 
 25 Fel.. 1907. 
 
236 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Ir. E. Jones, 7481. But what you are dealing with are house elates, 
 ji D. I presume 't — Yes. 
 
 - pgjj i9i)7 7482. What makes you think that the phthisis caught 
 ' in thee© particular mills is due to dust rather thaa to 
 
 other general causes? — Of course I have already said 
 that we depend entirely upon clinical observation. 
 
 7483. And we have had the figures which incline you 
 to think it^ — ^what else is there? — We find the men 
 suffering from a low form of pneujnonia. They perhaps 
 get an attack of pneumonia, they recover and go back 
 to work, and then gradually lapse into a state of inca^ 
 pacity. They have a cough, then pains and shortness 
 of breath, there are no cavities as a rule formed in 
 the lung, but there is a sinking of the chest on one or 
 both sides, the men are disabled, and you examine for 
 tubercle bacilli, and do not find any present. 
 
 7434. Do' you find any slate dust in the sputum ? — 
 That I have not looked for. There is no doubt there 
 must be, because they are working in a dusty atmo- 
 sphere. 
 
 7485. What proportion do the men who are engaged 
 in these mills represent. It is the milling, not the 
 quarrying, which is the dangerous occupation, is it 
 not ? — Yes, of course you do get dust in quarrying. 
 
 7486. As a whole we have it that the occupation is 
 not a dangerous one as regards phthisis — it ifi only one 
 part and apparently it is the mill part which is the 
 dangerous part, it is not ? — That is my opinion. 
 
 7487. What proportion does the number of men em- 
 ployed in the mills bear to the whole number of quarry- 
 men. Would the figures be given anywhere ? — ^I believe 
 the figures are given by Dr. Foster in one of the appen- 
 dices to the Report of the Commission, but I should 
 think more than half the men would be employed 
 underground. Our quarries are underground. 
 
 7488. And that is not a dangerous occupation I 
 understand you to say ? — I do not say it is not dan- 
 gerous, but there is not so much dust. 
 
 7489. The whole thing cannot be more dangerous 
 than the occupations of ordinary life, can it?— Quite 
 so. 
 
 7490. From your clinical observations, have you 
 found any distinction between the amount of disease 
 amongst underground workers and mill workers ?■ — ■ 
 Yes. 
 
 7491. {Chairman.) Do you ever come across a case 
 of this sort of phthisis amongst the underground 
 Workers as distinct from the mill workers ? — I think 
 we do. 
 
 7492. Although it is much less prevalent ? — Yes. The 
 men who gO' to the quarry, under the Factory Act go 
 at 14 years of age ; the men who go to work under- 
 ground come from the country between 18 and 20 years 
 of age — ^they have been farm labourers all their lives 
 before coming to the quarries — they come in as 
 labourers, and are put on as apprentices under the 
 rock men. They have a great advantage over a boy 
 of 14 who goes into an atmosphere of dust, so that I 
 believe is a factor in their being better able to with- 
 stand the dust. 
 
 7493. But cases do sometimes occur, do they?^ — ^Yes, 
 they do. 
 
 7494. {Mr. Cunynghame .) You can give a descrip- 
 tion, can you not, of the appearances of this disease? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7495. {Professor AllhxM.) Do you agree with this : 
 " Primarily the result on the lungs of the inhalation of 
 fine aaigular and sp'culatel microscopic particles of 
 slats duut is of an inflamanatory mature " 1 — Yes. 
 
 7496. Would you call that bronchitis or a fine pneu- 
 monia ? — ^I should call it a form of pneumonia. 
 
 7497. And ths mill men, I understand, show a larger 
 percentage of pneumonia and of ultimate fibroid 
 phthisis than their fellow workmen? — I believe so, 
 but as regards pneumonia, it is the men who work 
 underground who show the greatest percentage. 
 
 7408. That is ordinary pneumonia, 
 Yes. 
 
 I suppose ? — 
 
 7499. The splitters are particularly men exposed to 
 this disease, are they? — Yes. 
 
 7500. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Have you an exhaust 
 system of ventilation? — 'No. 
 
 7501. {Professor Allhutt.) You produce, do you not, 
 a drawing of the grains of slate dust taken from a 
 
 ledge in a slater mill and highly magnified, which are 
 found to consist of . irregular spicular and angular 
 particles ? — Yes. 
 
 7508. The finer the dust the more apt it is t<) pene- 
 trate the inner parts of the lung, I suppose?— Most 
 certainly. 
 
 7503. Will you describe the typical .symptoms of 
 well-marked cases of this kind ? — As I have already said, 
 a man may get pneumonia of a very low type from 
 which he would recover apparently, and go to work; 
 in time he developes a cough, and, as a rule, the men 
 working in these mills are very thirsty, and' drink a 
 good deal to relieve it. Then there would be shortness 
 of breath, but no blood expectoration, as a rule) but 
 great lassitude. In some you will find emphysema. 
 
 7504. I suppose you would find some fever ? — Yes. 
 
 7505. What do you find in the lungs?— We find 
 almost always complete consolidation. The consolida- 
 tion of the lung, I believe, is more rapid in the cases 
 of pneumonia we have than you would expect to find 
 generally. 
 
 7506. Could you distinguish it from common 
 croupous pneumonia? — It would be lobular or crou- 
 pous pneumonia — undistinguishable. 
 
 7507. If a man recovers do you anticipate a repeti- 
 tion of the attack ? — I do. 
 
 7508. So that gradually the lung becomes more 
 and moTe vulnerable. After a second or third attack, 
 do you expect then there w^ould be any permanent 
 signs 1 — Yes. 
 
 7509. Will you tell us what these are ? — There would 
 be a complete fi.broid condition of the lung. 
 
 7510. Then you get the fibroid phthisis, do you?— 
 Yes. 
 
 7511. All these acute attacks are prior to the per- 
 manent fibrosis? — Yes. 
 
 7512. Are these acute attacks a part of the disease? 
 — Yes. I have a man in my mind now who has had 
 three attacks of pneumonia, whom I have examined 
 several times for tubercle. As it happens, he is jus: 
 recovering from another attack now, and he has nei 
 worked yet. I sent his sputum up to the Clinical 
 Research Society, and they have discovered there is 
 tubercle bacilli in the sputum for the first time. That 
 man has been ill, off and on, for four years. 
 
 7513. The tubercle supervenes at the later stages? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7514. But in the first stage, you would not be able 
 to distinguish the illness from ordinary pneumonia?— 
 
 No-. 
 
 7515. How would you be able to distinguish, more 
 permanently ?> — A man would become very pale, suffer 
 from shortness of breath, and from great lassitude; 
 he would say, " I am too bad to work " ; but on look- 
 ing at him he might look fairly well. There is great 
 wasting as a rule, and when you examine the lung, 
 you find fibrosis, and you verify his statement. 
 
 7516. {Mr. Cunynghame.) How are you to distin- 
 guish the lassitude from malingering ? — By the physi- 
 cal signs. 
 
 7517. {Professor Allhutt.) Will you tell us what these 
 aire? — Defective expansion of the chest on one 
 or both sides possibly ; there would be sinking 
 of the intercostal spaces, perhaips an intensity of 
 breath, but no cavities, as a rule, are to be founa. 
 The dulness would be increased ; it would not be 
 complete dulness, but comparative dulness compared 
 with a healthy lung. 
 
 7518. Bilateral ?— Yes, as a rule. 
 
 7519. Whereas fibroid phthsis not due to dust is 
 generally unilateral, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 7520. You do not anticipatei much difficulty, in 
 chronic chest diseases, in distinguishing a case of 
 dust origin from one of a more ordinary descrip- 
 tion? — I think there would be a certain amount of 
 diflB.culty, but with the whole history of the case, 
 there would not be very much, particularly if you found 
 those conditions — the tubercle bacillus ab^nt, and the 
 man employed in a slate mill. 
 
 7521. And even when the tubercle had superveneid, it 
 would not alter your opinion, I take it ? — No, itwould 
 not. 
 
 ■7522. (Dr. Legge.) How many of these cases ha^e 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 237 
 
 yoft had under your tibeSHWixm ? — I have a list which 
 J can hand in. One of tita men named in that list is 
 dead, but the others are aliTOj and. are suffering from 
 the symptoms I have d^swdWd. 
 
 7523. How long have you been in practice there? — 
 Twenty-six years. 
 
 7524. Has this disease been going on all the time? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7525. So that you have seen 50 or 60 cases at least ? 
 — I think I have seen altogether 104. 
 
 7526. Are there other medical men practising in 
 your district? — ^There are. There is my late partner, 
 Dr. Robert Roberts, who wrote a paper on the sub- 
 ject. 
 
 7527. Are you all agreed as to tlie danger of the 
 occupation ? — Yes. 
 
 7528. As Medical Of&cer of Health, do you get a 
 certificate of death ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7529. How are tlie causes of death returned — can 
 you tell me the different headings 1 — Phthisis, tuber- 
 ■culosis, pulmonary — no bronchitis in it — phthisis pul- 
 mcmaris, general tuberculosis, fibroid phthisis. 
 
 7530. Do you get such a term as slate quarriers' 
 phthisis?— No. 
 
 7531. Can you tell us what slate is chemically? — 
 There is a lot of silica in it, and aluminium. 
 
 7532. Do you know what the proportion of silica is ? 
 — I think about 60 per cent. 
 
 7533. Is there any special slate in your district 
 which differs from other slate in its hardness, which 
 accounts for the special results in your district? — 
 Yes, our slate is the silurian deposit, whicb is mudh 
 softer. 
 
 7534. Is tlie same condition of things going on in 
 Carnarvon in the slate mills there, do you think? — 
 I should think so. But I may tell you my figures 
 deal entirely with the district I work in. 
 
 7535. Is yours an important slate quarrying dis- 
 trict? — ^Yes, we have the largest slate mines in the 
 world in our district. We work under a different 
 Act of Parliament to others. There is no doubt, I 
 think, if the cubic space which the men work in were 
 not so great, there would be a worse condition of 
 things. 
 
 7536. You said you can distinguish between ordin- 
 ary tuberculosis and fibroid phthisis, but supposing a 
 patient comes to you at a time when he has tubercle 
 Sacilli present in his sputum, how can you say that he 
 
 M.D. 
 
 Feb. IS07. 
 
 has fibroid phthisis as well. Would a Case like that Mr. B. Jones, 
 present much difficulty to you? — I should think it 
 would. Of course, you would go on physical signs and 
 oome to the best conclusion you could, but nothing •-•' 
 less than a post-mortem would satisfy you. 
 
 7537. But as a general rule a man in that condition 
 would have sought your advice before coming to that 
 stage, SO' that it is not likely to happen in practice^ is 
 it ? — I should think not. 
 
 7538. 'Can you say how long it is a man continues to 
 work in th© slate mills before he develops a pneumonic 
 attack? — I could not tell you how long, but I have 
 often seen young men from 20 to 25 years of age. 
 
 7539. I think you said they begin work at 14, did 
 you not ? — Yes. 
 
 7540. Does it take that length of time to develop ? — 
 I should think so, but after a man gets the first attack 
 of pneumonia it takes less time, of course. 
 
 7541. Do you get men commencing work at these slate 
 quarries and throe weeks afterwards getting an attack 2 
 — No. 
 
 7542. So that the dust does not set up an acute 
 attack 1 — I do not think it does. If you take the nature 
 of the dust it is clayish, and no doulbt a lot of it 
 inhaled would be expelled. That is, I believe, one of 
 the causes of the men being thirsty. 
 
 7543. So that you have to regard the acute pneu- 
 monia as simply evidence of a very slow chronic process, 
 
 ' I suppose? — It may be. There is no doubt in my 
 opinion that the slate dust is one of the factors at any " 
 rate in the prevalence of pneumonia ; how far it causes 
 it I do not know, but there is no doubt it is one of 
 the factors. 
 
 7544. (Mr. Cunynrjhame.) As I take it the figures 
 given by you show a ceii:ain amount of increased 
 phthisis among these mill hands, but not apparently 
 such an enormous proportion, or a very great propor- 
 tion more than there is in the population at large ? — 
 No, with this explanation, that amongst the popu- 
 lation at large there may be men who have been slate 
 workers. 
 
 7545. I meant among the population of all England— 
 the proportion is not so enormous, is it ? — It is not. 
 
 7546. It is not such a severe ca.s6, for instance, as 
 the steel grinders or ganister men, is it? — No, but 
 there is no doubt it is a factor in these chest affections ; 
 and, of course, the nature of the dust is not so hard, 
 which perhaps explains it. 
 
 Mr. J. T. Habtill, l.b.c.p., m.b.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 7547. Save you been a general practioner since 1669 
 in Willenhall, near Wolverhampton ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7548. Are you also Poor Law Medical Officer for 
 Willenhall ?— Not now. I was from 1876 to about 1887. 
 
 7549. The chief trades in Willenhall are lock, key 
 and curry-comb making, are they not ? — Yesi, and cast- 
 ings in iron and brass — especially iron. 
 
 7550. In the hand-made lock trade there is not much 
 dust, is there ? — No, there is not. 
 
 7551. But in the making of locks and keys by steam 
 and other power, and in the iron casting trades, is there 
 dust? — There is. 
 
 7552. That dust all arises apparently from grinding 
 and polishing by leather and emery bobs, does it not ? — 
 Yes, and on grindstones. 
 
 7553. It is grinding metals that produces the dust, 
 is it?— Yes. 
 
 7554. Do you think fibrosis of the lung can be easily 
 diagnosed? — I think fibrosis oif the lung can be diag- 
 nosed, but not easily as uncomplicated dust-produced 
 fibrosis. 
 
 7555. After death, I suppose it would be easy to tell 
 it by post-mortem ? — Yes, in many cases it would. 
 
 7556. But I suppose if people got more accustomed 
 tO' the necessity of diagnosing dust phthisis as compared 
 with other phthisis they would probably be able to do 
 it, given the life history of a man, supposing every 
 question was answered truly? — I should very much 
 doubt it. 
 
 7557. The Committee have been told bv a good many 
 doctors that though an ordinary practitioner might 
 
 find some difficulty at first, when he began to get accus- 
 tomed to it it would not be so difficult, given the life 
 history of the patient ? — I quite understand that some 
 doctors might take that view, but personally I think 
 there would be considerable difficulty, and I have 
 reasoned the matter out in my own mind. 
 
 7558. Have you seen cases of colliers' asthma ? — 
 Plenty of them. 
 
 7559. What is the cause of that ?— Goal dust. 
 
 7560. Does that set up phthisis ?- 
 it sets up phthisis. 
 
 -No, I do not things 
 
 7561. What does it set up ? — Ultimately it sets up 
 chronic bronchitis. 
 
 7562. Have you seen anything of brass, casters' 
 disease ? — No ; nothing that I could definitely speak of. 
 
 7563. Nor any disease got in the casting of iron apart 
 from grinding and polishing ? — No, I have not. 
 
 7564. What sort of grinding is done at Willenhall. 
 Have you seen the machinery there? — I have. 
 
 7565. What is it like? — Large grinding stones, and 
 there is dry and wet grinding on them. 
 
 7566. What kind of things do they grind ? — Tools — 
 chiefly tools that are used in the shops themselves. 
 They do not manufacture tools to a large extent. 
 
 7567. Then the men aj-e not grinding all day, are 
 they? — Yes; I think some of the factories are "large 
 enough for that. They also grind the rough edges off 
 large castings. 
 
 7568. And then what comes off consists of sand and 
 silicious dust of the iron, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 Mr. J. 1. 
 Hartill, 
 
 L.R.C.P., 
 
 M.R.c.S. 
 
238 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 /•. J. T. 756Q. Do they use hoods and. ventilators ? — Yes, in 
 
 Hartill, most of the shops they do. I know a very large quan- 
 
 L.R.C.P., tity of dust is collected in some of the shops from the 
 
 M.R.c.s. fans. 
 
 eb. 19(17 
 
 7570. What is the present state of health at Willen- 
 hall with regard to consumption? — There has been a 
 fall in consumption in recent years, but at the present 
 time there is a tendency to rise slightly. 
 
 7571. To what do you attribute that .P— The rise is 
 not larg© enough to draw any general conclusions. It 
 may be possibly due to the development of the casting 
 trades, that is to say, there may be a greater pre-dis- 
 position to it, but on the other hand the rise is not 
 .''ifficiently marked over a period of a few years to say 
 CO with certainty, and the population is not large 
 enough to draw any general conclusion from. 
 
 7572. (Chairman.) Have you had under your imme- 
 ciate care any cases of colliers' phthisis? — Yes, plenty. 
 
 7573. Have you no doubt that that phthisis is due 
 to the inhalation of coal dust? — Not the slightest. If 
 I use the term colliers' phthisis I should say distinctly 
 there is tuberculosis in a collier's lung, but when I 
 speak of colliers' asthma or colliers' consumption, as it 
 is locally called by the colliers themselves, there is no 
 tubercular deposit at all — it is simply bronchitis. 
 
 7574. In those mines with which you are acquainted 
 is there much stone mixed with the coal ? — No. I 
 ought to say there is practically no coal mining in the 
 immediate neighbourhood of Willenhall now. I am 
 speaking of the earlier portion of my life, when I had 
 a good deal to do with the miners, from the year 1869 
 to 1884 or 1885. 
 
 7575. But in recent years have you come across any 
 cases yourself? — ^Yes, because in the Short Heath dis- 
 trict there are still some cases from the Bssington 
 mines. When the miners left Willenhall they left 
 behind them their old and infirm people, and those 
 who were broken down by such complaints. 
 
 7576. In those mines is there much stone mixed with 
 the coal? — No, I should say not. I should say in our 
 neighbourhood the ironstone lies below the coal, but 
 for some years the ironstone has been under water. 
 The strata surrounding coal consists of shale, a moist 
 slatey clay. 
 
 7577. There are clean seams of ooal, and the miner 
 drills in nothing but coal, and there is no rock of any 
 sort — is that so ? — Sometimes you have to gO' through 
 the rock to get to the coal. 
 
 7578. The point I am trying to get at is this : Are 
 you sure that it is ooal dust, and no other dust. 
 that gives rise to this bronchial affection? 
 — ^I think so. I have seen dozens of oases 
 of colliers' lungs post-mortem, and I have seen them 
 permeated with black material which has all the 
 appearance of ooal dust, and in the expectoration coal 
 dust is visible. 
 
 7579. Do you think that that is a sufficient proof 
 that the asthma is due to that cause? — ^Yes, I think 
 so. Even at the present time I know a man 76 or 77 
 years old, who has probably not been in the mines 
 for 30 years, is still bringing it up. 
 
 7580. (Professor Allbwtt.) You have, you say, "seen 
 many cases of so-called fiJbroid phthisis, or consumption, 
 buit have never so described a case myself." Do you 
 mean you would call it by siome other name? — The 
 oases that have been commonly regarded as fibroid 
 phthisis, I believe to be tubercle. 
 
 7581. Is fibroid phthisis without tubercle unknown, 
 do you think t — Yes, practically ; you can get fibroid 
 thickening without tubercle. 
 
 7582. Is colliers' asthma a fibroid thickening of that 
 kind ? — There is generally some fibroid thickening, 
 but not any material thickening with colliers' asthma. 
 
 '7583. Haye you seen cases where there is material 
 thickening, and, if so, why should nolfc you call them 
 fibroid .phthisis if you have ? — Perhaps I may be wrtong 
 in Slaying so, but I have always regarded the word 
 phthisis as equivalent to pulmonary tulbercle. 
 
 7584. If I substitute, then, the words "fi,brosis of 
 the lung," — ^you have seen many such cases?: — Yes, I 
 have. You are speaking of fibrosis of the lung in.de- 
 pendiently of tubercle? 
 
 7585. Yes. Would colliers' asthma or consumption 
 
 be chronic bronchitis with more or less fibrosie? — 
 Yes. 
 
 7586. I do not quite follow your precis when yom 
 say : " There is no reason why a coal miner's lungs 
 should not be invaded by tubercle." That does happen 
 at later stages, does it not ? — Yes, frequently. 
 
 7587. " In which case, although the expectoration 
 might be purulent and coal dust laden, I should de- 
 scribe it as pulmonary consumption, and the tubercle 
 bacillus would be the cause of it." Is not this, after all„ 
 very much a matter of nomenclature, and not of prac- 
 tical clinical work? For example, a man breaks his 
 leg in an accident, and it may happen itlhat some suck 
 intercurrent affection as erysipelas supervenes, but 
 this would not take the oass out of the category of an 
 accident, would it? — No. 
 
 7588. Therefore I do not see why the supervention 
 of tubercle bacillus at a later stage takes the case 
 out of the category of a pulmonary disease due to 
 coal dust? — The difficulty I foresee is that you would 
 not be able to say when the tubercle invaded the lung. 
 
 7589. That is a different point, bait I do not see why 
 it should not be classed as colliers' lung with secondlary 
 poisoning by tubercle? — Quite so. 
 
 7590. Cannot you go further and say that had not 
 it been for the fibrous degeneration of lung he would not 
 have had that secondary tuberculous condition ? — No, I 
 cannot ; but given a fibrous condition of the lung, he 
 would undoubtedly be more likely tO' become tuber- 
 culous. 
 
 7591. iSo that really the man's malady is originally 
 due to the dust, is not it ? — ^No, I w'ould not go so far 
 as that. 
 
 7592. Where would you stop? — I think you must 
 come, distinctly and definitely, in contact with the 
 tubercle bacillus first. 
 
 7593. But we are all breathing tubercle bacilli fronn 
 time to time, are we not? — Possi^bly. I am not pre- 
 pared to affirm ot to deny it. 
 
 7594. And if already one has colliers' phthisis, one 
 is much nLore apt to make a home for the. tubercle- 
 bacilli, is it not so 1 — I admit that. 
 
 7595. Then I do not quite see your point that the 
 case ceases to be one due to dust, because subsequently 
 it becomes complicated with tubercle? — ^But I say the 
 point is, that a man would not be disabled until he 
 gets the tubercle. I take it, it is incapacity you are 
 dealing with ? 
 
 7596. Does not colliers' lung, apart from tubercle, 
 incapacitate?^ — -At a later stage it certainly does, where 
 you have chronic bronchitis. 
 
 7597. And at that stage he is very apt to become 
 subject to tubercle also, is not he ? — ^Possibly — I cannot 
 say ; I have seen many colliers late in life who have 
 had tubercle. 
 
 7598. You say : " Consumption accompanied by 
 fibrosis of the lung "— ^that is to say, pulmonary tuber- 
 culosis — "ought not to be a disease for compensation 
 unless the fibrosis without the consumption can be 
 demonstrated to be incapacitating in any given case- 
 by itself " ? — That is the view I take. 
 
 7599. In a case of a man coming before you to know 
 whether he is really an incapacitated man, would you 
 make it your opinion dependent on a microscopic 
 examination for tubercle ? — ^I can conceive a man being 
 incapacitated from fibrosis with other complications 
 which are not tubercular — for instance, bronchitis. 
 
 7600. But confining ourselves to bronchitis and 
 fibrosis admittedly due to dust, on a man's employer 
 asking you whether a man Was incapacitated or not, 
 would you say, " I must examine his sputum first, or 
 get a skilled pathologist to examine his sputum veiy 
 carefully, and if tubercle is there, he is not incapaci- 
 tated by a dust disease " ? — It would not be by a dust 
 disease alone. 
 
 7601. It is a di£Bcult position, is not it? — ^Yes. I 
 am afraid that would be really the bone of contention 
 in all these cases. 
 
 7602. (Chairman.) Do you hand in a table eho-winj 
 the deaths of persons above 17 years of age in Willen- 
 hall in years indicated from consumption of the 
 lungs ? — Yes. 
 
 The Table was handed in, and is as follows : — 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COJIJIITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 239 
 
 Deaths of Peraona above 17 years of aye, in Willenhall, in yaars indicated from Consumption of ths Lungs. H^' "'.J- 
 
 ^ ^ Hurtlll, 
 
 I'tar. 
 
 .1839 
 i89J 
 1891 
 1832 
 J 893 
 1891 
 1S9.3 
 18D6 
 
 1397 
 
 1899 
 
 190J 
 1901 
 1902 
 
 1933 
 1904 
 
 1905 
 1906 
 
 Total. 
 
 TotaU 
 
 M«l. E. 
 
 Fema'cp. Of which Tilroid Thlliisis. 
 
 Males. 
 
 L.P..C.P., 
 
 M li. .S. 
 
 ■2.5 Feb. 1907. 
 
 l'\ males. 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 " " ■' 
 
 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 12 
 
 5 
 
 ' ' 
 
 30 
 
 1) . 
 
 10 
 
 7 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 
 '.) 
 
 9 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 I.I 
 
 17 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 48 
 
 ■ ■ 
 
 16 
 
 10 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 1 
 
 
 44 
 
 1.1 
 
 I 10 
 
 6 
 
 10 
 
 i 
 
 43 
 30 
 
 1 "- 
 
 ]."> 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 15 
 
 c 
 
 
 
 
 51 
 
 [ 2.j 
 
 18 
 
 8 
 
 i 
 
 44 
 46 
 
 } " 
 
 29 
 
 17 
 
 12 
 
 
 n 
 
 52 
 
 26 
 
 14 
 
 12 
 
 
 59 
 
 
 
 ■ 23 
 
 14 
 
 9 
 
 
 ^' 1 
 
 04 
 
 
 
 
 \ 
 
 49 
 
 22 
 
 13 
 
 9 
 
 
 39 
 
 :.:) 
 
 [■» 
 
 Id 
 
 4 
 
 i 
 
 ' 1 
 
 41 
 
 49 
 
 1 « 
 
 19 
 
 13 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 27 
 
 19 
 
 8 
 
 
 II 
 
 1) 
 
 329 
 
 209 
 
 129 
 
 f 
 
 V 
 
 12 
 
 average ags, 
 
 44§ yeni-.^. 
 
 7 
 
 .■iveragu age, 
 
 O.J years. 
 
 7603. Do you adopt the ordinary line of differentia- Medical OiSccr of Health, I treat as a case of nul- 
 
 tion between fibroid phthisis and other cases of con- monary consumption, whether it is so intended or not, 
 
 sumption? — For statistical purposes, every case of and it is so classed, 
 death which is registered as fibroid phthisis, as 
 
■2iO 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 TWENTY-FIFTH DAY. 
 
 Wednesday/, 27th February/ 1907. 
 
 PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Henkt Cuntkghame, c.b. (in the Chair). 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. 'S^Stf flSWD* (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. W. F. Bkook, f.e.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. F. 
 Brook, 
 
 F.R.C.E. 
 
 27 Feb. 1307. 
 
 7604. (Chairman.) Mr. Brook, you are Fellow 
 of the Royal College of Surgeons, and live at Swan- 
 sea? — Yes. 
 
 7605. What is your practice here? — I am a consult- 
 ing surgeon. 
 
 7606. To the hospital? — To the hospital and in 
 private practice. 
 
 7607. You, I believe, have records of cases of what 
 the layman may term pitch diseases ? — Yes. 
 
 7608. How have they come under your notice ? — 
 When they have come into the hospital. 
 
 7609. You have no practice among the men? — No, 
 I have not seen them until they are inside the hos- 
 pital. Not even in the out-patients' department have 
 I seen them. I am very rarely present there, and I 
 have never seen them there. 
 
 7610. You only see them when very bad? — Yes, and 
 that is very rarely. 
 
 7611. Will you tell us in your own language — will 
 you give us a description of this malady that comes 
 from working in pitch, and give us your reason for 
 thinking it is ths pitch that does it? — To begin with, 
 I mujst tell you that it is only to my certain knowledge 
 that two bad cases have come under my care at all. 
 
 7612. In how many years ? — Let me see — 13 or 14 
 years. It is possible there have been others, but I 
 have not been able to find them. Unfortunately the 
 records in a provincial hospital are not kept in a way 
 that enables cases to be easily traced. 
 
 7613. There are two cases you are going to tell us 
 of?— Yes. 
 
 7614. Will you kindly describe the symptoms as you 
 saw them ? — Well, these two cases both came under 
 my care with obvious cancerous growths in the 
 scrotum — epitheliomatous ulcer of the scrotum. Prac- 
 tically a disease which is akin to' what is known as 
 chimney-sweeps' cancer. 
 
 7615. How do you know it is ? — My ground for saying 
 it is that chimney-sweeps' cancer of the scrotum is a 
 well-recognised form of epithelioma, and is caused by, 
 or is supposed to be caused by, irritation by soot. 
 
 7616. You have never seen a chimney-sweeps' case 'i 
 '-■Oh, yes, I have. 
 
 7617. Then you are able to compare ? — Yes ; that is 
 practically the form — a well-recognised form. 
 
 7618. And some you have had an opportunity of 
 actually seeing? — Yes. 
 
 7619. And in the men working in pitch you recognise 
 similar symptoms? — Yes. 
 
 7620. Not through books, but from actual observa- 
 tion? — Yes. That is why I say it is quite possible I 
 have seen more than these two cas3s. When I first 
 came down to Swansea I may have seen cases that I 
 presumed were chimney-sweeps' canosr, when possibly 
 they were cases of pitch disease in which epithelioma 
 had developed. 
 
 7621. Does chimney-sweeps' cancer exist still ? — Cer- 
 tainly. 
 
 7622. A large amount of it ? — I have not seen so much 
 in Swansea as I saw in London. 
 
 7623. Would you describe it as just epithelioma? — 
 Tes. 
 
 7624. Is that a word for cancer? — It is a form of 
 cancer. 
 
 7625. Dr. Legge will take you more on details. Un- 
 fortunately Professor AUbutt iis not here yet, 
 so I am struggling with some degree of ignorance. 
 How do you know it is cancer 1 — From the clinical 
 appearance and behaviour of the growth. 
 
 7626. There are no specific bacteria you can recog- 
 nise ? — ^No. 
 
 7527. So it is only from the general appearance that 
 one says cancer? — Yes, and also the microscopic 
 appearance. 
 
 7628. It might turn out to be some new disease, or 
 is it certain it is ordinary cancer? — I should say it 
 is absolutely certain. I think perhaps I am mislead- 
 ing you. These warts, as they are called down here, 
 are not cancerous necessarily. It is only occasionally 
 or rarely they take on a cancerous growth, and it is 
 only on those occasions I have seen them. 
 
 7629. If they don't take a cancerous growth are tkey 
 of such a character that they have to be cut out? — I 
 should think very rarely. I am speaking from my 
 experience of these two particular oases- that came be- 
 fore me, and also from what I have heard; from other 
 medical men. These two cases that came before me 
 here simply on account of disease in the scrotum also 
 showed evidence of skin disease elsewhere. That is 
 to say, scars all over the men's faoes, backs of the 
 hands, and exposad parts, where ulcerations had healed 
 of themselves. So I am quite convinced myself — 
 though I cannot say it of my own observation — ^that 
 these warts, or rather uloars, have a tendency to heal 
 without treatment at all. In other words, they are 
 quite a simple form of disease. 
 
 7630. If you examined them microscopically you 
 mip;ht find something ? — I cannot say, but I do not 
 think there would be anything very particular. 
 
 7631. Would they be of the same sort of ulcerous 
 character that would be got through a severe burn by a 
 man not in very good health? — I do not suppose 
 microscopically you would see more. I have not ex- 
 amined them. All I can say is occasionally when this 
 form of ulcer affects the scrotum the disease becomes 
 canoeroois. 
 
 7532. And develops into something practically indis- 
 tinguishable from common cancer? — Yes. 
 
 7633. And is akin to chimney-sweeps' cancer ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7634. Do you attribute that to something in the 
 pitch ?— Yes. 
 
 7535. Because they are exposed to somethiog of » 
 pitchy character ? — Yes. 
 
 7636. You have not gone into the question whether 
 it is due to creosote ? — No ; I should say something in 
 the fuel. Probably the pitch contains something 
 which is irritating. 
 
 7637. And probably soot contains stuff of the same 
 irritating character ?— -I should say not so irritating, 
 because the ordinary chimney-sweep is not liable to a 
 simple form of ulceration. 
 
 7638. The chimney-sweep comes under the genelS' 
 class of cancer? — ^Yes. 
 
 7639. He does not get sores ? — ^No. 
 
 7640. Can you tell us more than yon aave told n* 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAt DISEASES. 
 
 241 
 
 now?— These two cases I treated to begin with 
 by means of X rays, and I had an opportunity of 
 observing the other growths, or, rather, other ulcers, 
 their position and behaviour. 
 
 7641. A/Phich you think may possibly have developed 
 in the same sort of way? — 'Yw. 
 
 7642. I suppose the habit these men have of not 
 ■washing has to do with it to a certain extent? — No 
 doubt. I wrote to these men to come and see me, 
 two days ago, and one man volunteered that the only 
 iway to avoid the troublo is absolute cleanliness. 
 
 7643. He admitted that himself? — ^He suggested it. 
 "The other one says, " I use hot soap and water ©very 
 morning and evening," but I cannot help thinking he 
 started using the hot soap and water too late. 
 
 7644. Is there anything else you would like to add 
 that you think important to us ? — I don't think so. 
 
 7645. (I>r. legge.) Is this a form of epithelioma?!— 
 Tes. 
 
 7646. So when the cause is removed would there be 
 incapacity ? — No. 
 
 7647. Would there be likely to be a recurrence? — 
 Not if thoroughly removed. 
 
 7648. Not after 15 years? — I don't see why there 
 should be. Of course, there would be the same 
 liability to fresh attack in the parts, particularly the 
 vulnerable parts. I have had to remove the testicles 
 as well as parts of the gcrotum. 
 
 7649. Then the testicles adhered ?— Yes. 
 '7650. And it had broken down ? — Yes. 
 
 7651. And were the glands in the groin affected ? — I 
 "don't think so, as far as I can remember. 
 
 7652. How long ago was it? — About 1901 — ^both in 
 1901. 
 
 7653. And are 'both at work still ? — ^I saw both last 
 night ; or rather, one last night and the other two 
 •days ago. 
 
 7654. Was one called ? — No ; one ■ — : 
 
 He had been working in what he calls the pitch mills, 
 which he says are the worst part of the works, for 20 
 j-ears. It is where they grind the pitch to powder. 
 
 7655. Did he say what works ? — No ; I am afraid I 
 •did not ask him. He noticed trouble in the scrotum 
 «tarting with the ordinary wart 6 or 9 months before 
 he came to see me, and when I saw him he was suffer- 
 ing from epithelioma of the -scrotum, which involved 
 the testicle, necessitating removal of the testicle and 
 three parts of the scrotum. The other case is a man 
 named . 
 
 7656. Was he a grinder in the pitch mill ?— Yes, he Mr W F 
 was also working in the pitch mill, and in his case a jBrook 
 growth had been removed on two previous occasions. f.k.c.s. 
 Of course I cannot say how thoroughly. I saw him in — — 
 1901, when he was suffering from epithelioma of the 27 Feb. 1907. 
 scrotum. He tolu me he had had two previous opera- 
 
 tions— one in 1900 and one 10 years prior to that— and 
 after each one had had a recurrence. 
 
 7657. (Chairman.) Was your operation satisfactory? 
 —Yes. I operated in 1901, and so far it has not re- 
 curred. Probably I removed it more widely than was 
 done on the previous occasions. 
 
 7658. (Dr. Legge.) Would it be a fairly accurate way 
 of describing the form of cancer as composed of epithe- 
 lial cells, which, ordinarily growing outwards, take 
 on a reverse direction and grow inwards ? — ^Yes. The 
 word " wart " is a misnomer in these cases. 
 
 7659. Have you ever examined the ordinary pitch 
 wart microscopically and seen whether it resembles the 
 common wart? — No, but clinically it does not. It 
 starts as a little nodule in the skin, and almost 
 immediately begins to break down and practically 
 becomes an ulcer, a crust forme on the ulcer, which 
 gives rise to the appearance of a warty growth. If 
 the crust is removed the underlying ulcer is found to 
 have a slightly raised edge, giving the appearance of 
 the rodent ulcer. This, however, almost invariably 
 heals. 
 
 7660. So when you said these men have these marks 
 on\heir faoee you don't mean they put acid or oint- 
 ment on and so caused their destruction, but the 
 natural process of the healing ? — Yes. 
 
 7661. Have you ever seen a cystic condition of the 
 grovpth ? — ^No. 
 
 7662. Have you heard of it in the scrotum ? — Not in 
 the scrotum. 
 
 7663. Or on the body? — Only in the eyelids. It 
 happened when I was examining one of these men 
 that my friend Dr. Frank Thomas, ophthalmic sur- 
 geon, came in, and pointed one out to me. He will 
 give you sxifficient information on that point. 
 
 7664. Did you notice pigmentation of the skin? — 
 Yes. 
 
 7665. Do you think there are other surgeons in the 
 town who have removed these epitheliomatous condi- 
 tions ? — I think very probably. 
 
 7666. You don't know ?— No. 
 
 7667. This condition has not been described to your 
 knowledge in any paper ? — No, I don't think it has. I 
 sm not quite sure, but I don't think it has. 
 
 Mr. J. D. Davies, m.b., cm., called and examined. 
 
 76(^-9. (Chairman.) Your name is Dr. J. D. Davies, 
 of Trinity Place, Swansea ? — Yes. 
 
 7670. What opportunity have you had of observing 
 the pitch workers ? What position do you hold here ? 
 —I attend some of the workers at the Graigola Works 
 in Swansea. 
 
 7671. Are you employed by them ? — ^I attend a good 
 many. 
 
 7672. Are you employed by the employers or the 
 men? — The workers. 
 
 7673. Is it a benefit society ?— Yes. 
 
 7674. What is the name ?-#-" The Primrose Lodge," 
 a Shepherds' Lodge. 
 
 7675. How many members are there of this Shep- 
 herds' Lodge? — All the members of the lodge do not 
 work at the works, but a large number of the men 
 employed at the works are members of the lodge. 
 
 7676. Do you happen to know how many of the men 
 at the works are members of the Shepherds' Lodge? — • 
 No, I don't. 
 
 7677. Now, you have observed injury to health 
 through working in the pitch? — Yes. 
 
 7678. Would you kindly tell us what you observed ? 
 —The men who handle the pitch are sufferers from 
 warts. 
 
 _ 7679. What do you mean by handling ?— Working 
 in the pitch. I mean employed in the works and 
 handling the pitch. 
 419 
 
 7680. For instance, name some who do not? — ^Well, 
 the pressmen. I cannot exactly say the number who 
 do but they are comparatively few compare'd with 
 those who wo^rk in the works. 
 
 7681. Only a limited number of those employed who 
 are exposed to the pitch? — ^Yes. 
 
 7682. Perhaps one in eight ? — I should say less. 
 
 7683. One in ten ? — I should say 20 or 30 in a works 
 of 300. 
 
 7684. So it is from 7 to 10 per cent, of the people ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 7685. Beyond those 20 or 30 the others are not ap- 
 parently in danger? — No, they are not. 
 
 7686. Now will you tell us what are the symptoms 
 you have noticed ? — Warts grow on the surface of the 
 body exposed to the dust, I suppose it would be the 
 dusit of the pitch. 
 
 7687. Those warts are not what we commonly under- 
 stand by warts ?— Yes, exactly similar. 
 
 7688. Have you microscopically examined them in 
 comparison with ordinary warts ? — No, but they would 
 be of the same structure. 
 
 7689. What makes you think that? They might be 
 something more specific? — No; they are of epithelial 
 growth, and ordinary warts are of the same growth. 
 They oould not be of different structure. 
 
 769M. What else have you observed? Are their 
 
 2 H 
 
 3fr. J. 
 Davies, 
 M.B., CM. 
 
242 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 Mr. J. D. 
 
 Davits, 
 
 M.B., CM. 
 
 27 Feb. 1907 
 
 eyes affected? — ^In some oases they aie, owing to 
 irritation from dust collecting round the&s warts. 
 
 7692. "Wliat is the matter with them ? — Inflammation 
 of the eyes. 
 
 7693. What else have you seen besides warts and ia- 
 flammation? — I have seen ulcers round the bases of 
 the warts. 
 
 7694. Have you known cases where it has gone on to 
 a kind of cancer ? — Yes, two cases. 
 
 7695. What are the names of the two men? — It is 
 Bome years ago. I don't think I could tell you the 
 names. 
 
 7696. Have you seen the cases yooirself ? — ^Tes. 
 
 7697. What ie the appearance? — In one case, a case 
 of cancer on the ear, deep ulceration, which had the 
 characteristios of epithelioma. A case of this kind 
 would go into hospital. 
 
 7598. And then you ceased to treat him ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7699. But you saw him before ? — Yes. 
 
 7700. Do you know what was done to him there ? — 
 Treated under X rays. 
 
 7701. No operation? — ^Not in the ear case. In the 
 case of epithelioma of the scrotum there was an opera- 
 tion. The man died. 
 
 7702. These are the three symptoms you have seen 
 — soreness of the eyes, warts, and cancerous growths? 
 
 —Yes. 
 
 7703. You treat all the men in the Shepherds' Lodge ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7704. What proportion of the men in such works as 
 the G-raigola Works — what proportion of the 300 men 
 do you think are in any way affected by any one of 
 these three — warts, eye troubles, and cancerous 
 growths ? — I believe all the men employed in the pitch 
 department suffer from warts. 
 
 7705. That is rather a big order ?— Yes. 
 
 7706. You think all do?— Yes. 
 
 7707. And their eyes?— No. 
 
 7708. Not in the case of the eyes ? — No. 
 
 7709. And the cau'ceirous growttlhs? — ^Very few. 
 
 7710. Now, the cancerous growth would incapacitate 
 the men? — ^Yes. 
 
 7711. Would the warts incapacitate the men from 
 work? — ^Not in themselves, but if situated in a posi- 
 
 in that would be specially liable to friction, they 
 Id become inflamed. 
 
 7 ?. What parts ? — In the groin or between the legs. 
 
 7713. Have you seen the men in that condition? — 
 Yes. In one case in the groin an operation for re- 
 moval was done. 
 
 7714. That is cancerous growth? — No, only warts. 
 
 7715. How many men at present are on the funds 
 of the Shepherds' Lodge from pitch disease ? — Not one. 
 
 7716. How long ago was one? — I should say about 
 12 months. 
 
 7717. And what was the matter with him ? — Inflam- 
 mation of the eye. 
 
 7718. That occasionally incapacitates them from 
 work? — ^Yes. I removed a wart from the eyebrow of 
 the man. 
 
 7719. But he was not incapacitated ? — He was while 
 this was healing. 
 
 7720. Do you know anything about the pay these 
 men receive or their mode of life? — No. 
 
 7721. They are not, I suppose, anxious to be in- 
 capacitated if they can help it ? — Oh, no ; I should 
 say not. 
 
 7722. {Dr. Legge.) Have you kept any of these 
 growths you have removed? — No. 
 
 7723. Do you know whether any description has ever 
 been published of the mi'croscopicaj. oharaoteriBtdcs 
 they present? — ^No. 
 
 7724. You say they have the character of ordinary 
 ■warts ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7725. Do you notice that these men's faces aie 
 scarred? — Yes. 
 
 7726. How do these scars occur ? — ^Fromi applications 
 they put on the warts, I believe. 
 
 7727. Are you quite certain T — ^Yes > I know of case* 
 wheiie scars have been left by these applications. 
 
 7728. Have you ever seen these warts break dovm 
 and form a soalb, and then the scab fall off and leave 
 an ulcerated base, which would heal up and leave a 
 soar like that? — One can undersitand it might be so.. 
 I have not seen it. 
 
 7729. You are not quite certain those scars are not 
 the result of the natural process of healing which has. 
 occurred without the application of any ointment?— I 
 have seen cases where they have become inflamed, and 
 one oan understand ulcers might occur in such circum- 
 stances. 
 
 7730. But in your experience it is not the usual 
 course for the wart to break down in that way?— I 
 sibould say not. 
 
 7731. Have you seen any cystic conditioai produced? 
 —No. 
 
 7732. Have you heard of it? — ^No. 
 
 7733. Do those men's skins become pigmented ? — As 
 a rule they have very dark skins. I am quite unable- 
 to say it was a condition of true pigmentation. 
 
 7734. Tou do not know how far it might be removed 
 by soap and water ? — No ; they have very dark skins. 
 
 7735. Have you seen a general eruption on the arms 
 and bodies, and eczema ? — No. 
 
 7736. Have they come to you complaining of irrita- 
 tion of the skin ?— No, except perhaps oni the base of a 
 wart which may have become inflamed. 
 
 7737. With regard to the condition of the eyes, does 
 that affect the interior structure at all f — ^No ; I do not 
 think so. 
 
 7738. What would that be? — ^Oonjunctivitis. 
 
 7739. Does that lead to defective vision ? — I have not 
 seen any case I can trace to such a cause. 
 
 7740. Is this form of cancer distinct from cancer 
 common to the general population? — ^No, I do not 
 think so. 
 
 7741. But is epithelioma of the scrotum common to 
 the general population ? — ^No ; it is common to people- 
 who might be subject to irritation in these parte. 
 Sweeps are subject to it. 
 
 7742. Have you seen cases in sweeps? — I have seen 
 one case. 
 
 7743. And does it resenvble the condition found in 
 pitch workers ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7744. You consider this is a trade disease? — Yes, I 
 should say it is a trade disease. 
 
 7745. Do you think it can be prevented by cleanli- 
 ness? — Yes ; it is well recognised among the workmen 
 that if the parts are protected they do not get these 
 warts. 
 
 7746. The scrotum is protected ? — In one case I 
 believe it was said at the time the man had a hole in 
 his trousers, through which the dust penetrated. 
 
 7747. (Chairman.) Did you see that hole yourself?— 
 No. 
 
 7748. What made you think so?— I was told at the 
 time. 
 
 7749. By whom ? — Some of the workmen. 
 
 7750. (Dr. Legge.) Have you seen waiits about the 
 chest ? — Yes, and the back of the neck. 
 
 7751. Have you come across it among tar workers as 
 well ? Do you attend any of the workmen at the tar 
 works ? — No, I have no experience of the tar workers. 
 
 7752. You have been over the fuel works ; you know 
 all the processes ? — No ; I do not know all the pro- 
 cesses. 
 
 7753. But you said, I think, they do not occur whers 
 there is no dust ? — I have no experience of its occurring 
 in other men but those who are pitch workers. AnJ 
 I have made inquiries of some of the men. 
 
 7754-6. Do you remember the names of the two men 
 you mention in your prScis ? — No ; it is some time ago. 
 
 7757. Do you know what their ages were ?!— One was » 
 man about 48, and the other would be older. 
 
 7758. It does not occur in early life at all— this con- 
 dition ? — ^No. 
 
 7759. What is the extent of the largest warts?— I 
 have seen warts about tiie forehead about three-quarters 
 of an inch long. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 243 
 
 7760. And when they get inflamed, are they painful, 
 and do they lead to abstention from work ? — I know of 
 one case of a man who had severe neuralgia due to the 
 presence of one of these warts on his face. He had 
 severe pains in the forehead — at any rate, they seemed 
 ito have been caused bj these wart«. 
 
 7761. {Chairman.) We are informed — do you agre^— 
 .that the dusit does not give the men phthisis or any- 
 thing of that sort? — No, I have not come across any 
 •cases. 
 
 7762. It is asserted also that apait from these warts Mr. J. D. 
 and oibher troubles, the dust itself seems rather anti- Daviet, 
 sepitic and healthy in character? — It mighi be so. M.B., cm. 
 
 7763. Would you agree with that ? Apart from that, 
 the men do not seem unhealthy ? — ^No. 
 
 7764. All you can say is, apart from the warte, the 
 industry cannot be called unhealthy ? — ^No. 
 
 27 Feb. 1907. 
 
 Mr. E. B. Evans, l.b.c.p., m.ii.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 7765. (Chairman.) What is your position, Dr. Evans, 
 Siere?— I am surgeon to the Atlantic Fuel and the 
 Pacific Euel Works. 
 
 7766. And also to the Graigola ? — ^No ; I have nothing 
 ito do with that. 
 
 7767. Tou are employed by the owners ? — No, by the 
 men. The owners deduct the contributions every week 
 from the wagee, and then send it on to me. 
 
 7768. The men choose their doctor ? — Ob, yes. 
 
 7769. Do they belong to a benefit society of some 
 sort ? — ^No ; it is simply medical attendance. 
 
 7770. Solely medical attendance to the men at these 
 works? — That is so. 
 
 7771. Now will you tell us in your own way, please, 
 what you know about the injuries through working in 
 pitch? — I have been surgeon there for a great many 
 years — ever since the works started really. I have not 
 diad a large number of cases — eight or ten altogether in 
 over twenty years. 
 
 7772. So it is not a very common complaint? — Oh 
 dear me, no. 
 
 7773. It is a small thing in its way ? — A small num- 
 hex of the men are affected. 
 
 7774. The symptoms, I believe, we may take it, are 
 warts, afiection of the eyes, and ultimately in some 
 cases cancer?! — I have never seen a case gone toi cancer 
 — any case P have had. Whether I have had it in the 
 early stage I do not know. They generally come to the 
 works' doctor first, and then if serious go to the hospital. 
 The worsit I have had have been in the first case warts, 
 ■on the scrotum generally, about the size of a walnut. 
 They have been removed at once, and generally there 
 has been no recurrence. 
 
 7775. How many men are there, roughly, in these two 
 ivtorks? — ^I have no idea. I ought not to say a small 
 number are affeoted, but a small number come to me. 
 I think you asked me if a small number were affected. 
 I should have said a small number come to me. 
 
 7776. There are more afiected than come to you? — 
 They go to the hospital. 
 
 7777. How many men are there in the two works 
 altogether ?— I should think about 150 altogether. Thoy 
 do not all pay the doctor. It is a voluntary matter. 
 I should think about 200 at the outside. I am not 
 speaking with certain knowledge. 
 
 7778. Of those you have only met a few cases? — 
 About 10 cases in 20 years, and those all from tihe 
 Atlantic Works. I have not seen any from the Pacific 
 Works. 
 
 7779. What are the names Pacific and Atlantic 
 derived from? From the places they trade to?— No, I 
 think only a distinguishing name. 
 
 7780. Can you give me any reason why cases come 
 from one works and not from the other ? — I cannot. 
 
 7781. Do the men come slightly affected ?— No. 
 
 7782. Then it does not affect them when slight?— Not 
 unless they have it in the scrotum, and then they come. 
 
 7783. They do not come with lesser complaints ?— As 
 long as it does not inconvenience them. If it does they 
 come. 
 
 7784. I suppose it is a disease connected in some 
 degree with want of cleanliness in person ?— Yes ; if the 
 men were careful they would stand less risk. I think 
 it would be something of the same nature, but not so 
 malignant, as chimney sweeps' cancer. 
 
 7786.5. Have you had any experience in the latter ? — ' 
 
 I have seen one or two cases, but that is a much more 
 malignant growth. 
 
 ' 7786. And yet the same sort of thing?— Yes; but 
 chimney sweeps' cancer is much more malignant. 
 41S 
 
 7787. And apparently in some way connected with Euan's 
 pitchy vapour or dust, and arising from tar in both l r c p' 
 cases 1 — But pitch is much more irritating ; it contains m.r.c.s.' 
 carbolic acid and other things. — 
 
 7788. But soot contains, after all, the same sub- 
 stance? — Yes, but all the volatile matters have dis- 
 appeared. 
 
 77S9. Unless retained in the chimney. Would not 
 you imagine, in the soot you would get much the same 
 composition. Both come from coal, both from the 
 effect of heat on coal, both in a sense the produce of 
 distillation ? — Yes, but I should imagine the dust from 
 pitch worse than smoke from ordinary coal. 
 
 7790. And yet the effects from soot are more serious ? 
 
 —Yes. 
 
 7791. How many a year would you have ? — Two to 
 three a year — not so many as that. 
 
 7792. How many come to you altogether for that 
 complaint? — Very few. As a rule, they are really 
 healthy men. It is more the wives and families that 
 a club doctor attends. 
 
 7793. We are told that the pitch smell and all that, 
 apart from this wart disease, is rather healthy than 
 otherwise ? — ^Supposed to be ; it contains carbolic, an 
 antiseptic. As a rule, they are healthy men, although 
 their appearance is deceptive. There is a sort of pig- 
 mentation of the skin. 
 
 7794. Could they wash that off ? — I am afraid not. 
 
 7795. Would a series of Turkish baths wash it out ? 
 — I don't think they run to that. I think it would be 
 better if the men washed themselves as colliers do. 
 Colliers are notoriously clean. They have hot baths 
 every time they go home. Fuel workers don't, and I 
 think pitch dust and deposit cause injury. I have 
 talked to a man who said : " I never get any trouble, 
 because I wash myself." 
 
 7796. How are we to get them to wash themselves ? — 
 That is the question. The same thing applies to 
 spelter men and lead-workers. They would rather run 
 the risk. 
 
 7797. Would you go so far as to say there is a 
 specific disease? — There is no doubt about that, and 
 pitch has a most irritating effect. I had a case where a 
 minute 'particle got into a man's eye, and the whole 
 thing became disorganised and he had to have the eye 
 removed. 
 
 7798. Through a particle of pitch getting into the 
 eye ? — Yes, within 48 hours. 
 
 7799. Did some get in the eye with that result? — • 
 This was a piece of hot pitch. 
 
 7800. But if a man got it in the eye, would you 
 suggest he should have the eye removed ? — This is an 
 exception. 
 
 7801. You regard that as quite exceptional? — ^Yes. 
 
 7802. {Dr. Legge.) I was going to ask about the con- 
 dition of the eyes. Have you had cases to treat? — 
 Occasionally inflammation of the eye. 
 
 7803. Conjunctivitis ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7804. Have you had many? — Cases, as a rule, go to 
 the hospital. 
 
 7805. Do men come to you obviously blind ? — No. 
 
 7806. In one eye? — I have not seen any, but it does 
 affect the eye undoubtedly. 
 
 7807. It has been suggested that the skin generally 
 becomes very sensitive and liable to inflammation? — 
 Yes, of course, if they perspire the effect is more 
 intense. 
 
 7808. Is it worse one season of the year than 
 
 2 H 2 
 
244, 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. E. B. 
 
 Bvans, 
 L.R.C.P., 
 
 M.R.C.S. 
 
 anotlier? — I have not noticed it. There 
 recurrence of the gro'n'ths once removed. 
 
 7809. Have you removed warts ? — Several. 
 
 27 Feb 1907 7810-11. Have you sent any away to be examined ? — ■ 
 
 7812. Do you know whether any examination has 
 been made? — Not to my knowledge. 
 
 7813. Do you know whether they are the same in 
 character as ordinary warts 1 — Just ordinary warts, not 
 as a rule malignant really. 
 
 7814. On some of the men you have seen scars ?^ 
 Yes. 
 
 7815. Is that the result of treatment or the natural 
 course of the skin in getting rid of the warts ? — It is 
 the result of treatment, I think. As a rule, they are 
 just burnt off. Sometimes they are so large it is 
 absurd to burn them, and we always excise them right 
 away. Ordinarily, they are burnt away, and then it 
 breaks off and leaves a scar and marks in that par- 
 ticular spot. 
 
 _ 7816. It has been mentioned by Mr. Brook that they 
 difier from ordinary warts in that they break down 
 and a crust is formed, and that the crust falls ofi 
 after leaving an ulcerated base ? — That is so. I 
 thought you meant in appearance. The pitch wart is 
 more moist. 
 
 7817. What I want to find out is whether these scars 
 are the result of the breaking down of these warts, or 
 whether they are due to the caustic applied ? — It is the 
 result of the wart dropping off and leaving a slight 
 white mark. 
 
 7818. So the course of development is different from 
 the ordinary wart one finds on children's hands ? — Yes ; 
 the ordinary wart has not such a big base. 
 
 7819. Have you seen any of these warts in an in- 
 flamed condition ? — No. 
 
 7820. Do you attend workers in the tar works — the 
 tar distilleries 1 — I did for some time at Port Tennant. 
 
 7821. Do you find the »ame condition there?— No, 
 exce-pt a pigmented skin — slight pigmentation. ' 
 
 7822-3-4. Have you ever seen any cysts in tha 
 scrotum 1 — No ; never cyets. 
 
 7825. Leaving the question of these pitch warts, youi 
 attend the workmen at the arsenic reduction works ? — 
 I do. 
 
 7826. Do you attend the men who unload the ore ?~1 
 attend all the men. I mean the works at Port 
 Tennant. 
 
 7827. Have you had any experience of men discharg- 
 ing mundic ore ? — No. 
 
 7828. You know of no men who have been incapaci- 
 tated through warts ? — Except while under treatmemt. 
 
 7829. So it would not be a serious matter if this, 
 disease were included under the Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Act ? — If taken early the remedy is very simple, 
 and it does not seem to affect the general health at all. 
 Of course, during treatment, the men are bound to he 
 up. I have not seen any occurrence where the whole- 
 scrotum has been eaten away. Mine have been quite- 
 isolated warts. 
 
 7830. {Chairman.) Do you know anything about 
 bronchitis being due to the unloading of cargoes of 
 grain and ore? — No. 
 
 7831. Have any of the men under your care at alJ 
 or whom you have seen been connected with the load- 
 ing or unloading of cargoes other than pitch? — I have- 
 never asked the question. 
 
 7832. In fact, do you know anything about diseases- 
 got through unloading cargoes ? — No. 
 
 7833. Calamine ? — No ; not more than the spelter 
 works men whom I look after. I make no distinction, 
 except the furnacemen who come to me. 
 
 7834. Do' you come across phthisis and bronchial 
 complaints ? — ^No. 
 
 7835. Have yoii any reason to believe that there are 
 bronchial complaints or phthisis caused by dust in un- 
 loading cargoesi? — I have never heaad of it. 
 
 Mr. J. S. H. RoBEBTS, l.r.c.p., m.e.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 L.R.C.P., 
 M.E.C.S. 
 
 Mr. J. S. B. 7836. (Chairman.) What is your position here ? 
 Roberts, Have you private practice ? — Yes, private practice and 
 contract practice, both. 
 
 7837. That is to say, with some employers and men? 
 — Men, and I am physician to the hospital. 
 
 7838. What works are you connected with? — The 
 Graigola. 
 
 7839. I think I won't take you at length through 
 this. You agree probably with this that we have had 
 from previous witnesses — that, as the result of work- 
 ing with pitch there are three things — weakness of the 
 eyes, warts, which if not removed, may develop into 
 cancerous growth? — ^Yes. 
 
 7840. And I think we know the symptoms pretty well 
 now. What I should like to ask you about is the pro- 
 portion of men who get it. You have a contract to 
 attend all the men at tho Graigola works ? — Not all. 
 
 7841. How many come to you? — Between 200 and 
 250. 
 
 7842. That is out of the 300 men employed there ? — 
 I don't know how many are employed. 
 
 7843. There are, I understand, about 300. How 
 long have you had the contract ? — Since about August, 
 1891. 
 
 7844. During that psriod out of the 250 men how 
 many men have been affected either slightly or gravely 
 ■with the disease ? — I cannot say that. I have no means 
 of telling. I did not know this inquiry was going to 
 be held, so I have not got notes. 
 
 7845. Can you give as any idea how many would 
 have come to you in the course of last year ? — No, I 
 cannot. I only know that I have seen about two since 
 I heard this inquiry was going on. 
 
 7846. But, of course, that does not help us much ? — 
 I am afraid I cannot. I have kept no notes. 
 
 7847. Camnot you give us an idea? — I should say 
 there were not many. 
 
 7848. Two or three a year ? — I should think perhaps 
 
 more than that. The wen don't come with the warts. 
 They treat them themselves as a rule. 
 
 7849. If under contract with you they would come 
 to you? — They don't fur these warts unless they get 
 very bad. I don't believe I see more than two bai 
 cases in a. year. Some of them drop ofi of their own. 
 accord, .and then they have their own special means of 
 getting rid of them. 
 
 7850. And what are the special means? — Oh! one 
 will use soda and spittle — common -soda ; another 
 caustic or nitrate of silver, another aromatic vinegar 
 put on with a match head. 
 
 7851. That is an extraordinary treatment? — ^They 
 do thiat, and find it effective. 
 
 7852. Is there anything in the match? — ^Not the 
 match — the match end. 
 
 7853. Do you know anything about the graver cases 1 
 — I have seen one case that became malignant. 
 
 7854. What were the symptoms of the case ?— It was 
 the scrotum, and just when I went on about fifteen 
 years ago. It happened (I forget the date of his death) 
 about 1894 to a man called . 
 
 7855. A long time ago? — Yes, so I don't remember 
 much about it. I know he had a malignant disease on 
 the scrotum. 
 
 7856. And he was taken to the hospital ?— No ; he 
 died at home. 
 
 7857. Did you remove the cause ? — No ; it had gone 
 too far before I saw him. 
 
 7858. If this disease were put in the schedule of th» 
 Workmen's Compensation. Act there are not a great 
 many men who would daim under it ? — ^Tlhere are not 
 many men who are unable -to work because of it. ^ 
 lot suffex from it. 
 
 7859. Nor does it seem to me likely that any of the 
 older men would be discharged from fear of their 
 employers falling under the liability ? — I should think 
 not, because the numbers are so small. The warts 
 develop rapidly with some men. I was talking to * 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 245 
 
 man to-day who had been there over twenty years and 
 had never had a wart. Only a few get them. 
 
 7859*And generally those who are not clean ? — ^Yes ; 
 that is it. 
 
 7860. It is to a large extent their own fault ? — Yes. 
 
 7861. That is not a disqualification under the Act, 
 but still their own fault? — Yes. Since this inquiry 
 came on I asiked several of them why some have them 
 and som« have not, and they said, " because they doai't 
 wash." 
 
 7862. It is a piiy you caamot teach them to batJhe? 
 — It would be useful at tihe fuel works. 
 
 7863. I suppose in cases of that sort the best prac- 
 tical place for the men to have a wash is at their 
 homes. They might wash at the works, but then ihe 
 men would have tO' put on the same clothes? — Yes, if 
 the men had baths at the works ; but rather that 
 than not at all. They live largely in old houses. The 
 modem houses have baths. 
 
 7864. What is the rent of the modern workmen's 
 house ? — I believe about 8s. a week. 
 
 7865. Some of the men are getting very high wages ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 7866. I am told in spme cases the wages go as high 
 as 16s. in a day ? — ^Yes, in one portion of the work. 
 
 7867. That is the loading ? — ^Yes, occasionally. That 
 is not regular, of course. 
 
 7868. They can afford 8s. house rent with that ? — The 
 
 shippers can, but it is more the men working in the Mr J 8 H 
 
 P^t'=^- Soheris, 
 
 7869. They are not getting more than 4s. or 5s. a l.r.c.p., 
 
 day 2—1 should think more than that ; but they are the m.r.c.s. 
 
 ones who suffer mostly. 
 
 7R7n /n T ^^^ .v,- , .t. • • 27 Feb. 1907. 
 /a/U. (JJr. Jjegge.) Do you think there is any special 
 
 process where the disease is more frequent than else- 
 where ? — I don't know. 
 
 7871. (Chairman.) I think j<m mention in your 
 precis the pitch breakers ?— Yes. The men in the pitch, 
 who are unloading the pitch and who' are grinding the 
 pitch, are the ones who suffer. 
 
 7872. (Dr. Legge.) Have you removed any of these 
 warts ? — No ; I have sent them to the hospital. 
 
 ■7873. Do you have to treat cases in which the skin 
 is in an eczema.tous condition by reason of the work ? — 
 No ;' I do not think so. 
 
 7874. Is the skin very sensitive in sunlight ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7875. Can you see it inflamed 1 — Yes. 
 
 7876. And the eyes ?— Yes. 
 
 7877. Have you known serious effects in the eye 1 
 Loss of sight? — ^No. 
 
 7878. Have you any experience of broncl^jitis from 
 unloading cargoes of grain or calamine 1 — No. 
 
 7879. Copper ore ?— No. 
 
 7880. Grain?— No. 
 
 Mr. S. J. EoDEEiCK, M.B., CM., called and examined. 
 
 7881. (Chairman.) What is your position? Hava 
 you private practice? — Yes. 
 
 7882. Are you surgeon of any hospital or works ?^ 
 Yes, of two works — tinworks. I may say three works. 
 
 7883. That is to say, you are selected by the men ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 7863*. How many men are there m. the three tin- 
 works? — I could not say. I daresay between men, 
 boys, and girls, a.bout 500 in one, 300 in the other, 
 and perhaps 700 in the other — ^the Old Oastle. 
 
 7884. Do they all contract with you or not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 7885. So you have the care of about 2,000 people ? — 
 The large works is divided up amongst other medical 
 men, but the other works I have. 
 
 7886. At any rate you have 1,000? — I dare say. 
 
 7887. Can you tell us about the tinplate workers ? 
 Is there any disease among them — any disease that is 
 in any way specific to the industry ? — I don't think so. 
 I don't know of any except in the tinning department 
 where they are subject to bronchial affections, asthma, 
 or something of that kind, but whether brought on 
 by the work I cannot say. They would be made worse 
 by being employed in the stife. 
 
 7888. What would do that?— The dust largely and 
 the stife from the tin pots. 
 
 7889. Is that chloride of zinc ?— Yes. 
 
 7890. Have you any proof it is the dust and fumes 
 from the chloride of zinc that makes them ill ? — No. 
 
 7891. Is there a great proportion of phthisis, bron- 
 chitis, and asthma, or are the men fairly healthy ?-r- 
 Fairly healthy. There are some who say that people 
 
 ..suffering from asthma are better for being in the tin- 
 ning house. 
 
 7891*. So, in your view, the circumstances are not 
 such as to cause the tinworks to be put down as the 
 cause of disease 1 — No ; I cannot say there is any dis- 
 ease due to working in tinworks. 
 
 . 7892. And the average health is as good as in other 
 occupations ? — Yes ; I have spoken to other medical 
 men, and they are of the same opinion, excepting in 
 regard to the tinning department. 
 
 7893. Then you hold a different opinion with regard 
 to the tinning department ? — Yes. 
 
 7894. You think there is something there injurious 
 to health ? — Yes ; if they could do away with the dust 
 they would get rid of the disease. If a man came to 
 me I could not say, " Yes, your disease is such, and 
 was caused by working in tinworks." 
 
 7895. (Dr. Legge.) How would you describe one of 
 these bronchial a-ttaicks ? — ^Typical attacks of asthma. 
 
 ' 7896. Spasmodic asthma ? — Yes. 
 
 7897. Then it would not be bronchitis. What do you 
 find on listening to the chest? — Just the ordinary 
 wheezing. 
 
 7898. In the large tubes ?— Yes. 
 
 7899. Not" in the fine tubes ? — It passes off just like 
 ordinary asthma. On the Monday morning they feel 
 pretty well after the Saturday afternoon and Sunday 
 off. 
 
 7900. Is it worse on Saturday afternoons than on 
 Sundays ? — ^It gets better after absence from the works. 
 
 7901. Is not that strong evidence that it is pro- 
 duced by the works ? — It is made worse by it. I would 
 not say caused by it. 
 
 7902. Do you get these asthmatic attacks among 
 people not employed ait the works in Llajielly? — ^Yes. 
 
 7903. Have you tried to find out whether those 
 people are working in dusty processes ? — No ; but there 
 are a great many who do not suffer who work in these 
 departments ; so there may be a predisposition. 
 
 7904. Does this condition go on from bad to worse? 
 Supposing a man is 20 years in the works, does he get 
 worse and chronically incapacitated ? — A great many 
 leave because they have work elsewhere away from the 
 dust. They leave as comtparatively young men from 
 35 to 40. 
 
 7905. Can you recall an actual instance where that 
 has happened ? — Yes. 
 
 7906. Can you describe what you find on examining: 
 their 'chests ? — ^Well, they are fairly healthy after being 
 away all this time. 
 
 7907. Do they suffer from chronic bronchitis ? — No ;. 
 they are commission agents largely, and always out- 
 of doors, and don't seem to suffer at all now. 
 
 7908. That would tend to show it did produce 
 spasmodic asthma?— Yes, in some, but there may be 
 predisposition. 
 
 7909. Have you inquired whether some of these have 
 been asthmatic before they went into the works ? — ^No ; 
 they gradually pass from one department to another. 
 They start as cold roll boys and pass into- the tinning 
 department. 
 
 7910. Do- the attacks yield to the ordinary treatment 
 of bronchitis? — ^Y'helR they are away from the works 
 they get better., 
 
 7911. Do they get laid up for a week or a fortnight 
 or a month at a time? — Some go on working as they 
 are. I cannot say that there are many who are really 
 kept away from the works for any lengthened period. 
 
 7912. Have you had any opportunity of examining 
 the lunig of a tinman post-mortem ? — ^No. 
 
 Mr. -S, J. 
 Roderick^ 
 M.B., CM. 
 
246 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mf. S. J. 7913. That condition has never been described ? — 
 
 Roderick, No. 
 
 M.B.jC.M. 7914. Have you ever seen any skin affections 
 
 on Tf.u ion- amongst these men? — No, only as the result of flux 
 
 getting on the hands — simply from the hydrochloria 
 acid. 
 
 7915. Do the fumes produce actual running of the 
 nose— catarrh ? — No ; I have not noticed it. 
 
 7916. It has been said eczema is produced by it. 
 
 Have you seen it ? — No ; they might get it from the 
 dusting process. 
 
 7917. Is there any condition which you can describe 
 as mechanical bronchitis'? — I believ© it would be 
 almost mechanical. 
 
 , 7918. But the mechanical bronchitis would occur in 
 the fine tubes, ajid you say that is not the case? — ^It 
 would be in the fine as well as the large. It would 
 not be capillary bronchitis. It is not as bad as that. 
 
 Mr. John Arnallt Jones, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. A. 
 -Jones, M.D 
 
 7919. {Chairman.) What is your position here ? Are 
 you doctor of any hospital or is yours exclusively a 
 private practice? — I am surgeon to works and have 
 public appointments. 
 
 7920. To what works are you surgeon ?— Surgeon to 
 tinplate works. 
 
 7921. How many?— Two. 
 
 7922. And how many men? — I should say surgeon 
 to about 50O tinplate workers, roughly. 
 
 7923. What other men are you surgeon to ? — Some 
 colliers. 
 
 7924. Any people who are cargo unloaders? — Yes, 
 that sort of men. 
 
 7925. How many cargo unloaders ? — About 100. 
 
 7926. What is the nature of the cargoes they are 
 unloading ?— At Port Talbot the cargoes discharged 
 are ballast, pit wood, pig and scrap iron, and iron 
 ores, copper precipitate, and pitch. 
 
 7927. I am not going to ask you much about pitch. 
 We have had so much evidence about it. But I should 
 like to know whether as a consequence of unloading 
 cargoes any phthisis, or bronchitis, or respiratory 
 organ diseases are produced ? — No ; we have not got 
 a large phthisis death rate at Port Talbot. 
 
 7928. That may be so, but perhaps that hardly 
 answers my question. You may have a low death 
 rate, but what I want to know is are the men who are 
 unloading cargoes suif erers from it ? — No ; the men who 
 unload cargoes are generally the pick of the popula- 
 tion — very fine fellows, as a rule. 
 
 7929. What is in your judgment the effect of dis- 
 charging these cargoes on health? — It irritates the 
 respiratory organs. 
 
 7930-1-2. Does it irritate them sufficiently to cause 
 them to abajidon work altogether? — If a man suffers 
 from a disease of a bronchitic nature or from_ a 
 chronic cold, he would have to give up discharging 
 
 ■copper cargoes. There are men who have been em- 
 ployed at this sort of work for years and don't seem to 
 suffer. But it is dif&cult to believe it is to their 
 
 -advantage to go on with the work. They enjoy 
 immunity. 
 
 7933. Your view is that if a man from other causes 
 is disposed to respiratory disease he ought not to take 
 to that employment ? — ^No. 
 
 7934. It largely aggravates respiratory disease if he 
 has it, but it won't originate it?— What the men tell 
 me is, when they start on the work they are generally 
 upset, and suffer from the chest, but after unloading 
 a cargo or two they get immune. 
 
 7935. And they go on all their lives ?— Fifteen or 
 20 years. 
 
 7936. Does it shorten their lives ?— I have not known 
 a case. 
 
 7937. It does not appear to me that your view makes 
 out that this ought to be put into the schedule for 
 compensation for diseases of occupation. We should 
 feel hardly justified in doing that on this evidence ?— 
 You may bear in mind the men are protected by 
 muzzles. It would be very bad for them if not. 
 
 7938. They wear muzzles, and they ought to be com- 
 pelled to do so? — ^Yes. 
 
 7939. Assuming that they wear them, do you say the 
 men are subject to a disease of occupation ^-No. 
 
 7940. Have you seen grain cargoes discharged at 
 all ? — No ; they don't discharge grain at Port Talbot. 
 
 7941. What is the character of the muzzle em- 
 ployed? — It covers their faces, and the air is filtered 
 through cotton wool. 
 
 7942. Is it very large? — It covers their face, and 
 if they have not got a muzzle they will wet a hand- 
 kerchief. 
 
 7943. (Dr. Legge.) Amongst tinplate workers do you 
 find any serious illness ; is there anything specific ? — 
 No; the tinplate worker is not the type of man the 
 collier is. He is not so robust. He is a pasty indi- 
 vidual very often, and the tinplate worker is a spirit 
 drinker, while the collier is a beer drinker. That is 
 my experience. Tinplate workers work over fumes of 
 hydrochloric acid, and that irritates the chest. 
 
 7944. What do they come to you for ? — I think they 
 are more liable to have catarrh. 
 
 7945. Nasal ? — ^Nasal and chest. 
 
 7946. When you listen to their chests what do you 
 find ? — I have not noticed anything particularly de- 
 finite. 
 
 7947. Anything you can distinguish from ordinary 
 bronchial catarrh? — No. I have had a good deal 
 more cases of nasal catarrh. I do a good deal of ear 
 and nose work. I find I get more complaints of the 
 nose and ear from tinplate workers than from others. 
 
 7948. Which section do you mean? — Mostly those 
 working over the fumes. 
 
 7949. You think the fumes lare worse than the dust? 
 • — I don't like to give an opinion. 
 
 7950. You have been inside these works ? — Often. 
 
 7951. And you know there is much dust? — ^A great 
 deal. 
 
 7952. You would not like to give an opinion which 
 
 it is ?— No. 
 
 7953. Do you find these nose and ear symptoms in 
 the girls as well as the men? — ^Yes. 
 
 7954. What is the condition of the throat?— 
 Generally dry. 
 
 7955. Would it be that inflammatory condition of 
 the throat which afiects the eustachian tube 1 — I think 
 that is the case. 
 
 7956. Can you say that is specific? — ^I should not 
 ke to say that. 
 
 7957. What do you attribute this to? — It may be 
 dust. All these tinworks are very exposed. There is 
 a great deal of draught. 
 
 7958. To return to the chest symptoms, does the 
 ailment resemble asthma ? — ^I must say in my district 
 true asthma is very rare. 
 
 7959. Even in tinplate works ? — Yes ; I don't think I 
 can recall a case of asthma. Cases are very few in- 
 deed which one cannot connect with heart. Spasmodic 
 asthma is not common. I only know of one case of 
 spasmodic asthma in a tinworkman, and he was a man 
 who came into the district with it. 
 
 7960. Do you know workmen who have had to give 
 up employment altogether because they could not 
 stand the work ? — I cannot recall a case at the moment. 
 
 7961. How many years have you been in attendance 
 at the works? — I have been qualified since 1884, aad 
 practising ever since. 
 
 7962. Comparing tinplate workers with those men 
 who unload cargoes, which are the healthier lot?— I 
 should say the cargo men. They are a fine lot of 
 fellows, you know. 
 
 7963. The work necessitates them being singularly 
 powerful to stand the strain ? — It weeds them out. 
 
 7964. And do you think these men go into tinplate 
 works? — There are plenty of weedy men in tinplate 
 works. 
 
 79fi5. Are there any other symptoms in the men who 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 247 
 
 unload cargo in the first part of the respiratory tract 
 —I mean in the nose ? — No ; they very seldom come 
 and complain. All I have got is from inquiry. 
 
 7966. It has been alleged that bleeding of the nose 
 is common? — I have not seen it. 
 
 7967. In your nasal work, do you come across per- 
 foration of the septum through dust! — No. 
 
 7968. I think you said, in answer to Mr. Cunyng- 
 hame, it does not shorten their lives ? — No. 
 
 7969. "What do they die of?— They do not die. I 
 have not seeoi any die yet. There are men woiking 20 
 years, and good for more woik. 
 
 7970. I forget the number of men you said you see ? — 
 About 100 at the docks discharging cargoes. 
 
 7971. No* much more than 100? — ^Not who would 
 omne under my care. 
 
 7972. Are thesre any other doctors in Port Talbot who 
 would see them 7—1 should think I have seen as many 
 83 any. 
 
 7973. Have you been in the holds of the vessels?— 
 Yes. 
 
 7974. Is there much dust? — Oh, yes ; I would not 
 like to work in it, 
 
 7975. Have you had experience in calamine ore? — 
 Na. 
 
 7976. That is not unloaded there ? — ^No, pig and scrap 
 iron. 
 
 7977. Bo you know the tertm spathic ore ? — ^No, I do 
 
 7978. (Chairman.) I suppose you would agree, with 
 regard to the pitch, that of the men who are engaged in 
 unloading the pitch, some of them sufier from, warts, 
 
 and that these occasionally develop into a cancerous Jifr. J. A. 
 growth ?^I have made inquiries. I have only had one Jones, "m.d. 
 
 case of a man with a few warts. scattered about his 
 
 face, and I should believe that pitch would give rise to 27 Feb. 1907. 
 
 epitheloma, in the same way as chimney sweeps' is pro- 
 
 duced in the scrotum. 
 
 7979. Do not some of the men engaged in the grind- 
 ing g^t warts Jl— No; this man only came with a few 
 small warts scattered about the face, and he is now 
 under treatment, having them burnt. 
 
 7980'. Beyond that you have never seen anything ? — ■ 
 No. 
 
 7981. {Br. Legge.) Is not pneumonia common !— Yes, 
 fairly common, but I do njt think out of proportion. 
 I ought to have brought my annual report as medical 
 ofiicer of health here. Perhaps that might have given 
 you some information. 
 
 7983. You describe in youj- prdcis attacks on the 
 gastric system in connection with the unloading of 
 cargoes of grain 1' — Not grain— precipitate. 
 
 7983. Do you think that is due to the metal, or 
 simply to mechanical irritation of the dust ? — It gives 
 a very nasty taste at the back of the mouth, and that 
 makes the men sick. When I was a medical student I 
 used to pass works where they smelted copper, and if 
 I went round before lunch I could not eat because of 
 the nasty metallic taste. It produced sickness, and I 
 can. therefore understand these men suffering from the 
 same as I experienced. 
 
 7964. Does the dust affect the eyes at all?: — These 
 men do not complain. Of course, there must be a 
 mechanical irritation. 
 
 7985. You think the pitch workers are in a worse 
 plight than the others ? — I should think so. 
 
 Mr. G. Evans Jones, l.e.c.p., i.k.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 7986. (Chairman.) What position da you occupy. Dr. 
 Jones? Have you private practice? — ^Private and 
 works practice. 
 
 7987. How many men. are there in the works ? How 
 many works do you attend ? — Between Dr. Jones, Llan- 
 Bamlet, and myself we attend three tinplate works. 
 
 7988. And how many men are there in these works, 
 about 1,000? — Really I could not tell you. 
 
 7989. {Dr. Legge.) WMch are they?— The Midland 
 and Morriston Works and the Aber Knplate Works. 
 
 7990. {Chairmam,.) Your experience began in 1898, I 
 believe? — ^Yes. 
 
 7991. What did yoiu' find that the men suffered from 
 then? — ^The first thing that drew my attention to it was 
 that I used to have cases that were apparently bronchitis, 
 ttnd after treating them with the ordinary treatment for 
 bromohial affections arising from coldsi and so on, I 
 found it did not give way to the ordinary treatment, 
 and them, on inquiry, I found they were working in this 
 smoky atmosphere, which they said came from the flux, 
 and they had to gO' off work for an hour or two at a 
 time, and when they got relief went back again. Then 
 I inquired what the flux was composed of, and they said 
 mostly spelter. Having attended spelter works, and 
 having some experience in lead colic, I formed the 
 opinion, lead had something to do with it. 
 
 7992. What are the symptoms you find from the lead ? 
 —Gastric disturbance, pain in the stomach, and con- 
 stipation. 
 
 7933. Do you find ths gums discoloured ? — Not of the 
 men working in the flux. In lead cholio we do. 
 
 7994. What works are those ?-HSpelter works. 
 
 7995. What are the symptoms due to the tin ? Lead 
 poisoning we need not deal with. It is dealt with in 
 the Act. — There may be dust from the tin oxide, the 
 tin and lead, and then the fumes from the flux used — 
 powdered gypsum or bran. 
 
 7996. {Dr. Legge.) Gypsum used instead of bran?— 
 
 Yes. 
 
 7997. {Chairman.) Some of the workmen are in- 
 capacitated from work ?— Yes. 
 
 7998. What are the symptoms ?— Purely tightness of 
 the chest and cough. 
 
 79S9. And colic pains ?— No ; mostly tightness and 
 shortness of breath. 
 
 8000. That is a symptom that may occur in any ocou- j/^ q ^_ 
 pation? — ^We find it more especially among tinplate Jones 
 workers. You get it in colliers where dust arises from l.e.c.p'., 
 the coal. l.r.c.s. 
 
 8001. But you may get it where there is no dust ? — 
 Yes ; but these men are specially liable to it. 
 
 8002. Have you any figures in support Ji — No; but 
 I have 13 or 14 oases of men losing three, four, five, six, 
 and nine months, and in one case a man lost three or 
 four years. 
 
 8003. Are you doctor for other works than tin works ? 
 — Yes, tin works, spelter, and collieries. 
 
 8004. Do you find the men from the collieries have 
 the same complaint? — Not exactly the same. 
 
 8005. Can you give us any reason for thinking there 
 is any specific diseasei of occupation aanong the tin 
 workers? I would not call it a specific disease. 
 What impi'esses me so much is that a man 
 works in the dust and smoke for some time, and 
 every now and again he is leaving the woTk for an hour 
 or two on account of shortness and difficulty in breath- 
 ing. He gets relieved, and goes back again. Some- 
 men have been working for years, and have toi leave it , 
 and take outdoor occupation, and they are not troubled 
 at all after. I saw a man the other day. He worked in 
 the tin house a number of years, and his chest always - 
 troubled him. He left the work, and I met him on 
 the road selling greengrocery, and you could hear him - 
 a mile away, whereas he oould hardly breathe before. 
 
 80O6-7. Is this a disease that ought to be scheduled as 
 a disease under which compensation should be paid ? — 
 I would not call it a disease, but these fumes and dust 
 aggravate these troubles. If a man has a slight cold 
 and works in the midst of dust it is much aggravated. 
 I could not call it a specific disease in any event. 
 
 8008. Not quite a disease in the same sense, for in ■ 
 stance, as lead poisoning would be ? — No. 
 
 8009. Do you know anything about pitch ? — ^Nothing 
 at all. 
 
 8010. {Dr. Legge.) When one of these men gets laid 
 up, and you are called in, what signs do you find in 
 the lungs ?— Simply the whole lung seems gorged with 
 blood. 
 
 8011. Is there dulness?'— No. 
 
 8012. What do you hear with the stethoscope? — 
 RSilee. 
 
248 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. G. E. 
 Jones, 
 
 L.E.C.P., 
 L.R.C.S. 
 
 27 Feb. 1907. 
 
 8013. In the larger tubes ? — Yes ; not in Hie capi- 
 laries, and mostly in the base of the lungs. 
 
 8014. Has it any similarity to spasmodic asthma? — 
 Yes. 
 
 8015. Do they get better in a number of days 11 — Some 
 do. 
 
 8016. After they have gone back to work and had 
 several of these attacks, after 10 years what do you find 
 then in their chests? Is there any differemce? — There 
 is a man I know here. It is the most difficult case I 
 know of. There is no damage in the lungs. 
 
 8017. Does it develop into pneumonia? — ^No. 
 
 8018. Does it develop into bronchitis and emphy- 
 sema ? — Into chronic bronchitis it does. 
 
 8019. There must be men working there considerably 
 over 50 who have this condition and yet are still able to 
 go on working ? — Yes. 
 
 8020. So they are not seriously incapacitated? — No, 
 I should not call it so. 
 
 8021. You were going to describe it in your own 
 
 words ? — This man • is about the worst case I know 
 
 of. Sometimes he comes to me and says he has had " a 
 mouthful of smoke agciin." That is how ho describesi 
 it. And that his breath is short. His lung is gorged 
 with blood, no temperature, breathing is short, expec- 
 toration, and still no breakdown in the lung itself. 
 Then he has a marked constipation. He has little 
 ulceration in the hands. 
 
 8022. Is he a tinman? — ^Yes. 
 
 8023. You say there is no tenvperature ? Is that 
 typical? — The only man I saw with temperature is a 
 man a week ago, and that was his first attack. 
 
 8024. In ordinary acute bronchitis from a chill 
 would there be temperature? — Yes. 
 
 8025. So that is one distinguishing point between 
 them? — Yes. Because, in ordinary acute bronchitis 
 you would always get temperature. 
 
 8026. Do you see a dozen of these cases in a year ? — 
 Well, I could not say exactly, because I have not kept 
 a special account. 
 
 8027. But still you would be able to say. Do you 
 know of any men who have had to give it up 
 altogether ? — Yes. 
 
 8028. How many? — I should say about four. 
 
 8029. And was that after many years ? — Yes. 
 
 8030. Were they able to find other work? They 
 
 were not incapacitated so as not to be able to work at 
 anything ? — Only that particular work. 
 
 8031. Do you know of any who have had to give it 
 up within a year because the symptoms were so severe ? 
 —No. 
 
 8032. Has your attention been called at all to heart 
 disease caused by the heavy nature of the work in the 
 rolling mills ? — No ; I have had one case, but I did not 
 attribute it to that at the time. 
 
 - 8033. Wlia.t did you attribute it to? — He attributed 
 it to the hard work, but I thought he had some rheu- 
 matic mischief. 
 
 8034. Was there a definite murmur at the heart?— 
 Yes. 
 
 8035. Did the murmur disappear — No. 
 
 8036. So you cannot help us in that? — No. 
 
 8037. Have you seen conditions of eczema pro- 
 duced ? — Yes. 
 
 8038. Do you think produced by flux? — He attri- 
 buted it to the flux. He says only since working in tha 
 flux he has had it. 
 
 8039. I gather from you that the fumes are worse 
 than the dust. Have you been inside the works ? — No ; 
 only to an accident. 
 
 8040. Do you see many women who work there at 
 tinplate cleaning ? — Yes. 
 
 8041. Do they complain of the same thing ? — I only 
 know of one case, compared with numbers of the 
 men. 
 
 8042. Have you had your attention called to the con- 
 ditions of the throat? — Only ordinary tonsilitis — 
 nothing special. There is one case I would like to call 
 
 your attention to. This is a man named , 
 
 forty-six years of age, a tinman. Troubled mostly 
 with the ordinary symptoms, shortness of breath and 
 digestive troubles. I lost sight of him for a time. He 
 went away for a change. And then I was called to see 
 him — ^he then developed symptoms of locomotor 
 ataxia. I don't know whether it is possible to 
 trace this to the flux. 
 
 8043. This is interesting rather as an illustration? 
 — Yes ; I know this man was a steady-going man. xie 
 was not a drinker or anything of that kind — a clean- 
 living man. So you could not attribute it to syphilis, 
 as we often do. 
 
 8044. Do you know the difference in the physique of 
 the actual tinmen and the other people working there ? 
 — Not so robust. 
 
 In the evening Professor Allbutt, Dr. Legge, and 
 Mr. W. F. Brook, F.R.C.S., examined six men who 
 were Working, or had worked, in the manufacture of 
 briquettes, and were believed to have suffered from, 
 pitch blindness or warts and cancer. Loss of sight in 
 one case sixteen years previously had. evidently been 
 due to lan acute septic inflammation from injury in the 
 first instance from pitch dust. This had necessitated 
 at the time removal of one eye. The other eye was 
 shrunken, .and appeared to have been the seat of an 
 acute suppurative keratitis. The very defective sight 
 in a second case — a man aged 68 — ^appeared to be due 
 to cataract, and to be in no way connected with his 
 
 employment in pitch, which he had left ten years 
 previousl}'. 
 
 The ages of the four men suffering from warts were 
 54, 37, 59, and 43. Duration of employment was con- 
 siderable — over 20 years in each case. Three were 
 engaged in the most dusty process at the grinding mUl, 
 and the other in the shipping department. Numerous 
 depressed scars of healed warts were noted on the face. 
 Three had undergone operation for epithelioma of the 
 scrotum, involving removal of a testicle also in two 
 instances. In one of these men an epitheliomatous 
 growth was present on the scrotum. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL;;COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 249 
 
 TWENTY-SIXTH DAY. 
 
 Thursday, 2Sth February 1907. 
 
 MEMBEKS PKESENT : 
 
 ;Mr. Henry Cuntnghame, c.b. {in ike Chair). 
 Professor Cliitoed Allbtjtt, f.b.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Leggb, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Fbank Thomas, m.b., Waltsr Road, Swansea, oalled, and examined. 
 
 8133. (Chairman.) What is your position, doctor?^ 
 I am an ophthalmic surgeon. 
 
 8134. To what hospital .P — To the Swansea General 
 -and Eye Hospital. 
 
 8135. Are you employed in. any way for the employers 
 •or men? — In no' way. 
 
 8136. You have private practice hesides that ? — Yes. 
 
 8137. You have seen men who have been working 
 :in pitch ? — Yes. 
 
 8138. Making hricquettes? — Yes. 
 
 8139. I think I may take it, may not I, that there 
 .are thres effects of working in pitch — first, affections of 
 "the eye, then there are warts, and then, in certain 
 ■cases, hut rather rarely, cancer or something akin to 
 •cancer may supervene? — Yes. 
 
 8140. That, roughly, represents the whole thing 
 in a few words ? — ^Yee. 
 
 8141.. You have come' here to talk only of the eye ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 8142. Are you of opinion that there is a specific 
 •dlBease or injury of the eye in this trade that can he 
 elearly traced to the trade, and that it is not a mere 
 fortuitous thing that anyone may catch ? — I do not 
 
 ■think there is any specific disease, hut I think where 
 injury occurs to the eyee hy pitch they almost in- 
 variably do' very badly. I believe the whole trouble 
 arises in the fii-st place from the injury. 
 
 8143. (Professor AllbM.) What is the name you give 
 it? — Keratitis, which results in sloughing of the 
 coinea. 
 
 8144. Do I understand that this is caused in the 
 ^rst place by a slight injuiy to the eye that may occur 
 anyhow, and then is aggravated by the pitch? — I 
 think it is caused by the particles of the pitch. I 
 believe the particles adhere to the cornea and destroy 
 the delicate epithelium, iond then the entrance of 
 micro-organisms is possible. I do not know that 
 infection is not helped by a certain amount of destruc- 
 tion of the corneal tissue by the pitch. 
 
 8145. Is it a trade injui-y caused by working inthe 
 ■pitch? — It is not different from what a stoker might 
 get if he were to get a cinder into the eye and got 
 infection on top of it. 
 
 6146. Do you think it is more frequent in the case 
 of pitch workers than other people? — I think more 
 ■frequent. 
 
 419 
 
 8147. Then it follows that it does partake of the /|,/,.. 
 nature of a trade injury ? — Yes, I have always looked p, Thomas 
 on it 'as being very largely associated with pitch m.b. 
 workers. 
 
 28 Feb. 1907- 
 
 8148. Have you seen the same symptoms with other 
 
 people? — ^Not with the same constancy. 
 
 8149. What do you means ? — ^Frequency. 
 
 8150. Not with the same frequency ? — Yes. 
 
 8151. How many men have you had under you from 
 this cause within this year? — I have been trying to 
 find out, but we keep our notes in alphabetical order, 
 and I am afraid I cannot answer. I should say cer- 
 tainly twenty in a year. 
 
 8152. How many people came to you with their eyeis 
 wrong? — ^AbO'Ut 1,500 -.oases in a year at the hospital, 
 where th^ese pitch injuries are seen. 
 
 8153. Of whom about 20 represent patch injuries ? — 
 Yes, and I believe only the more severe kind have come 
 to me. I think some may get well without, or are 
 treated by their own doctors. 
 
 8154. Supposing a particle of pitch — a visible par- 
 ticle — were to lodge within the eyelid, is it as readily 
 detached as any other piece of dust? — No, but I do 
 not see them very often when in that condition. 
 
 8155. What is your opinion? — I believe they adhere 
 very firmly. I have only one case where I did remove 
 it, but it cleared iip straight away without any com- 
 plication. 
 
 8156. If you have not got the notes, perhaps you 
 could let us have them afterwards ? — ^Yes, I can. 
 
 8157. From memoi-y you can tell us how you removed 
 it? — With an instrument — with a spud. 
 
 8158. Did you find you could just spoon it out, or 
 was it attached? — Attached to the epithelium, and I 
 think some of the epithelium came away with it. 
 
 8159. So as to leave an opening for septic poison- 
 ing ? — Yes. 
 
 8160. Then you tell us that there is nothing in the 
 fully developed condition which is characterietio of * 
 a pitch injury? If you went into the out-patient room 
 and saw a man suffering from the fully developed con- 
 dition you would not thereby know what had happened 
 
 to him ?— No. 
 
 8161. But you would think it likely from your know- 
 ledge of the locality ? — Yes. 
 
 2 I 
 
250 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I 
 
 Mr. F. 8162. And if you wont fiuther aiid heard he was 
 
 Thomas, M.B. a pitch worker you woidd think it more probable still 
 28 Feb^907 ^^^^ ^^ ^^ ^ ^^^''^ injury?— Yes. 
 
 8163. Then if, pursuing these inquiries, you learn 
 the whole story of the case from beginning to end, you 
 would have something more than the mere passing 
 phase of it to gtiide you ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8164. And taking the present phase with the past 
 phaeee, you would have very little difficulty, with the 
 large majority of oases, in giving your opinion ? — Yes. 
 
 8165. You think a referee such las yourself would 
 not find it difficult in the large majority of cases to 
 speak decisively ? — ^No. 
 
 8166. Taking it from beginning to end, and having 
 full information? — No. 
 
 8167. Then there is a very important statement in 
 your precis — ^" As a rule, secondary glaucoma. . . ." 
 That is, of course, a very important result of your 
 experience ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8168. So when you say " as a rule '' you mean as a 
 rule there is very great risk of permanent loss of sight ? 
 — ^Unless the glaucoma is removed. 
 
 8169. Unless iridectomy is performed P — I never 
 touch the iris. It would' destroy the eye, I feel sure. 
 "What oni3 does is to make a section aorosis .the cornea 
 and get the clot of pus and fibrin out. That nearly 
 always relieves the tension. The tension is due to the 
 clot or hypopyon. 
 
 8170. You do not avert glaucoma by that? — In this 
 condition I think you nearly always do relieve the 
 secondary glauxsoma. 
 
 8171. You mean by that time it is a glaucoma? — 
 Secondary glaucoma, meaning glaucoma brought about 
 as the result of some known factor, such as the presence 
 of a clot. In primary gjlaucoma it is due to something 
 we do not definitely know of. 
 
 8172. You mean the permanent effect on the vision 
 would be much the same ?— As a rule they cannot see 
 much when they have it seriously, whether glaucoma 
 or no glaucoma. 
 
 8173. So it does not matter much whether secondary 
 or not ? — ^No ; they have perception of light or the 
 counting of fingers, or something of that sort. 
 
 8174. The risk to the eye sight is so great that 
 whether nominally glaucoma or not does not matter? 
 —I should say not. 
 
 6175. Then you say, as supporting your diagnosis, 
 that you look on the skin and see whether you find 
 the remnants of these warts ? — Yes, 
 
 8176. {Dr. Legge.) Is it consistent with your expe- 
 rience that a man may get a piece of pitch into his 
 eye one day and the inflanamation may be so extensive 
 that it may ibe necessary to remove the eye on the 
 following day? — ^I have never heard of such a case. 
 I cannot believe it possible that in twenty-four hours 
 such a condition could arise. 
 
 8177. Do you think it is consistent with your ex- 
 perience that it is the chemical ingredients in the pitcli 
 — ^oarbolic, and creosote, and so on — that cause the- 
 intense irritation ? — ^I believe it is produced by chemi- 
 cal action, whidh destroys the tissue and gives aa 
 entrance to the bacteria. 
 
 8178. Then it must be a trade injury? — I suppose 
 it must 'bei. 
 
 8179. Can you give a name to the particular con- 
 dition? — Well, it is known as serpiginous uloer of 
 the cornea, but really sloughing keratitis describee it 
 best. You may get ■uie whole of the cornea sloughing 
 away. 
 
 8180.' Would you describe the fully developed 
 condition ? — When fully developed you have a more or 
 less large ulcer of the cornea, brilliant yellow in colour. 
 It exudes pus. It may or may not have perforated the- 
 eye ball. If not you have a large mass of pus in the 
 anterior chamber, great tenderness, increased ten- 
 sion, and almost total blindness. That is, a percep- 
 tion of light only. 
 
 8181. With regard to the iris? — The iris as a rule is. 
 bound down to the lens underneath. It is rarely 
 acted on by atrophine, the pupil, however, as a rule 
 not being occluded by lymph. 
 
 8182. Have you heard of this condition in other 
 districts, such as Ckrdiff ? — Yes, I have spoken to men 
 at Cardiff, and they always look on it as a serious- 
 condition. I do not know whether they look on it as 
 seriously as I do. 
 
 6180. Perhaps it is a bigger industry at Swansea ? — I 
 think SO'. I do not think they meet with it so often. 
 
 8164. (Professor Allbutt.) Just one summairy question. 
 For all we know, little particles of pitch may get 
 into the eyes of workmen and wash out again, but 
 they are apt to make this attachment ? — ^Yes. ' 
 
 8185. Taking these cases only, I think y<ju have- 
 said that as a rule there is a breach of surface? — I 
 believe there must be. 
 
 8186. So that -these terrible consequences to the eye 
 are really septic poisoning ? — -Yes. I believe the first 
 thing is irritation and destruction of itflie tissue, andl 
 then, you get the septic process commencing. 
 
 81S7. And then you get the secondary septic con- 
 dition? — I believe if one could get -them before the 
 septic process commenced one could save the great 
 destruction. 
 
 8168. That, you think, is not to be hoped ioic?— 
 Yes, unless pepple realise thatS the very (piiglhtest 
 injuries lead to loss of the eye, and come to u& 
 at once. I gave a man ointment -to use once, and he 
 said it was quite impossible -to use it because he found 
 the pi-tch dust adhered -to and irrita-ted his eyes; so 
 I have never since given men ointment -to use at work. 
 It is impracticable for us to adopt -the antiseptic pro 
 cess in the ordinary condition of life. 
 
 Mr. Ebenezek Davies, m.e.cs., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. E. 
 
 M.E C.S. 
 
 8189-90. {Chairman.) Mr. Davies, I think you are a 
 member of the Royal College of Surgeons ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8191. What is your position here ? Have you private 
 practice only ? — Well, I used to have priva-te practice, 
 but I have given up private practice for some years, 
 and now practioailly give my whole time to the work oi 
 Medical Officer of Health. 
 
 8192. To 
 Swansea. 
 
 the town of Swansea? — To the town of 
 
 8193. I believe you can give us some general statis- 
 tics as to occupational disease ? — I am afraid I cannot 
 as to occupational disease. My experience of occupa- 
 tional disease has been very slight and -yery remote. 
 I think it is 25 or 30 years since I had anything to do 
 with workpeople as patients — contract work, or any- 
 thing of that kind. 
 
 8194. I mean statistics you would have as medical 
 officer of health. Can you throw any light on the 
 disease got by working with pitch ? — ^No ; I have only 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 251 
 
 iearJ of one case, and that very recently from the 
 factory inspector here, which I found on reference re- 
 rgjstered simply as a caee of cancer, and in the person 
 of a labourer, without any description of his employ- 
 ■ment. ■ 
 
 8195. May we take It pitch disease is on a small 
 -.scale, perhaps too small to be reflected in the general 
 .statistics of the health of the town ? — Yes, I think so. 
 I was going to supplement it by saying there is a 
 .certain amount of vagueness about certificates of 
 death, specially with regard to occupations. A man 
 is put down as a labourer, but no reference is made to 
 what kind of employment he is engaged in. 
 
 8196. And therefore it is very difficult to throw light 
 on a disease of this kind or a disease on a small scale 
 :from statistics? — Yes. 
 
 8197. But you would not be disposed to deny that a 
 .-specific disease comes from pitch', or do you know 
 nothing aTiout it? — No, I do not. I heard of it only 
 lecently, and in one case I found the occupation not 
 mentioned in the certificate. 
 
 8198. Have you any views as to diseases of the 
 lespiratcry organs, phthisis, bronchitis in general, in 
 the district? — The death rate from phthisis above 5 
 .years is 1.4 to 1.5 per 1,000 of the popnlation. 
 
 8199. How does that compare with the death rate of 
 England and Wales in general ? — I think rather high — 
 .above the average. 
 
 8200. To what do you attribute that? — Our rate 
 from phthisis has fallen to some extent. I think the 
 influence of main drainage had something to do with 
 it. Years ago Dr. Buchanan referred to the absence 
 of deep drainage as on© of the conditions causing a 
 high phthieis death rate. That has been remedied 
 here. 
 
 8201. Is the difference between the figure of men and 
 ■women marked ? A good many women are engaged in 
 lindustry here? — ^Not very large. Of the total deaths 
 from, phthisis at ages 15 and upwards during 5 years, 
 1901--6 inclusive) the proportion was males 54.7, 
 females 45.3 I have worked out the occupations 
 ■census of males and females here. Engaged in 
 occupation — males, 83.5 per cent, of persons of 
 "10 years and upwards. That is from the re- 
 turns of the Registrar-General. Females engaged in 
 ■occupation, 24.2 per cent. 
 
 8202. Of the whole population? — Yes, above 10 
 j^ears. Then I have given the workers in iron and 
 :steel and metals — coal, patent fuel, and metals — about 
 one-fifth, or more than one-fifth of the total population 
 above 10 years of age. 
 
 8203. Is there more phthisis or respiratory organ 
 ■disease amongst the occupational people than amongst 
 Ae populaition at large? — ^I am lafraid I have not any 
 facts I can give you. Of course a very large amount of 
 phthisis occurs in the workhouse after the period of 
 work. 
 
 8204. To what do you attribute this excess — natural 
 excess or occupation ? — I should say not occupation. I 
 don't think occupational case^ of phthisis prevail 
 largely in this district. 
 
 8205. That is the impression you have formed?— - 
 
 8205. There is no growing evil, in fact, from respira- 
 tory organs? — No. I don't know whether this would 
 be of any use to you. We have had a case of anthrax 
 in 1904, and that recovered, and that was due to 
 treatment of Chinese skins. I hand in these figures. 
 "The amount of women occupation is not so very large 
 in Swansea. 
 
 8207. I should think that a quarter is rather a big 
 figure. You gave us 24 per cent, just now? — That 
 'would include domestic servants, of course. It works 
 ■out in regard to other occupations very much less. De- 
 'ducting domestic service, the oooupational percenitage 
 IS 13.7 per cent. There are some women employed in 
 ^inplate works. 
 
 419 
 
 8208. (Dr. Legge.) Are there tin works in your dis- j^r E 
 tnct? — ^Yes, many of them are. Doimes, 
 
 8209. And in addition to those in your district there ' "•"•"• ^' 
 are a great number of tinplat© workmen who go out- 28 Feb. 1907. 
 
 side to Morriston ?— Morriston is within the County 
 
 Borough. So there are a good many tin workers in the 
 
 borough. 
 
 8210. And do you get them returned as tinplate 
 workers in the death certificates ? — Yes, usually, except 
 in the case of "labourers." 
 
 8211. I>o you notice any special incidence from any 
 cause ? — Of late years ? 
 
 8212. Among the tinplate workers ?— No, I don't. 
 
 8213. As regards respiratory diseases, are they not 
 in excess of the general population ? — Well, I could not 
 tell you that without working it out for a series of 
 years, which I could do for you. 
 
 8214. What is the number of tinplate workers in 
 Swansea ? 
 
 8215. {Chairman.) 2,186 males and 329 females? — 
 Yes: ; those were the numbers at the Census, 1901. 
 
 8216. {Chairman.) Can you do that rapidly for us 
 at once — show whether the proportion of respiratory 
 diseases is larger among the tinplate workers ? It 
 oould almost be done in a moment? — I have not got 
 the data here, but I could get it for you in a few 
 days. 
 
 8217. {Br. Legge.) Do you ever get asthma returned 
 as a cause of deatih. amongst tinplate workers ?-^Yes, 
 but not to any special extent. 
 
 8218. We should like it worked out for tinplate 
 workers as compared with the general population for 
 the men from about 15 years of age — phthisis and 
 respiratory diseases? — Not the females? 
 
 8219. No ; the males above 15 years of age as com- 
 pared with the general male population of the same 
 age in Swansea ? — Yes. 
 
 8220. And we should also like to know the way in 
 which their death is described. Whether you get 
 asthma, for instance? — I should have to give the de- 
 scription as I get it. 
 
 8221. If you have them returned as asthma we should 
 like to know ? — You don't want the females ? 
 
 8222. No; we will only have the males? — During a 
 period of five years ? 
 
 8223. Yes. It would be very interesting to get out 
 also the heart disease figures for exactly the same 
 population ? — And you want asthma specially ? 
 
 8224. No ; never mind about that ? — As a sanitary 
 officer I receive no notifications of disease, except zy- 
 motic diseases. I don't get any official returns, except 
 under the Notification Act. 
 
 8225. {Professor Allhutt.) You mean apart from 
 deaths ? — Yes. 
 
 8226. {Br. Legge.) You have got a figure for heart 
 disease generally ? — Yes. 
 
 8227. How does that compare with the average? — 
 Well, that I cannot tell you offhand. 
 
 8228. It has not struck you as :being particularly 
 high ? — About one tenth of the total deaths in 1905 
 were from heart disease. 
 
 8229. Will you furnish that over the 5 years? — 
 Yes. Would you like to have the total deaths from 
 heart disease during these 5 years as compared with 
 the total deaths of the population, and then a further 
 analysis in regard to tinworkers ? 
 
 8230. Yes, the proportion of heart disease to tin- 
 workeiTS? — ^And then work out the proportion on the 
 census of the population engaged in works ? 
 
 8231. Yes. 
 
 2 I 2 
 
252 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. S. L. Gregob, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. S. L. 8232. (Chairman.) lou are managing director of the 
 ■Oregor. Graigola Fuel Works? — Yes. 
 
 ?8 Feb. 1907. 8233. We should be very much obliged for your 
 
 observations on the allegation mad© as to soreness of 
 
 eyes, warts, and in some cases cancer, arising out of 
 the employment of making briquettes? — Well, this 
 inquiry has been siprung upon us. Until I (had a tele- 
 phone message last night from the manager of the 
 works I had absolutely no idea anything of the sort 
 was afoot. The men evidently have had that know- 
 ledge for some time, and have been preparing their 
 facts. 
 
 8234. As a plaintiff prepares his case before going 
 into 'court? — ^I think it is usefless denying as regards 
 the men who have the handling of the pitch that these 
 things do occur. But that is confined to a very small 
 section. 
 
 8235. But we have evidence also among a few men 
 not engaged in handling the pitch — the loading. Per- 
 haps you would call that handling. The loading of 
 the briquettes and the pitch breaking. We have 
 evidence that those men have got it 1—1 should draw a 
 hard-and-fast line. If anything of the sort is done, it 
 certainly should not include any men except those 
 who have the handling of the pitch. You may include 
 those who discharge the boats, those who load pitch up 
 from stock after put down to stock, and those who have 
 the handling and breaking of it, but I have never 
 known or heard of a case of the sort amongst the .fuel 
 shippers or any man engaged in the factory. 
 
 8236. Out of the 800 men engaged in the industry in 
 Swansea how many would you call within the total of 
 the industries you have spoken of as liatle? What 
 proportion would it be? Give it us roughly? — Off- 
 hand I think I am fairly safe in saying it would not 
 exceed 7 or 8 per cent, of the total number employed. 
 
 8237. What do the remaining 90 per cent, do ? — 
 Those are engaged in the manufacture of briquettes. 
 
 8238. But I thought they were exposed to pitch"? — 
 No ; when the pitch is once broken up and goes into the 
 conveyer, and the whole thing is melted, then the 
 process is more or less in the open air, and the men 
 are not in contact with it like the men who have the 
 breaking of it. 
 
 8239. Say you have 300 men eiriployed altogether, 
 how many would be employed in unloading the j)itch ? 
 Take the dangerous occupation first? — We could give 
 you these figures exactly. Our works manager would 
 be able to give you them. If taking pitch directly 
 into the works from a steamer, so many men would be 
 in the hold loading it, and so many shovelling, and 
 one man in the bin, and two men in the crushers. 
 And that number would be doubled. 
 
 8240. That is open to one remark, that if the disease 
 does not happen except to about 7 or 8 per cent. , there 
 is no great harm in scheduling it for the whole in- 
 dustry, because you would not have to pay if it did 
 not occur? — I quite see your point. 
 
 8241. Do you think that would cause it to be unfair ? 
 — With my knowledge of the working classes, which 
 has extended now for a very long time, I am satisfied 
 that nearly every case of illness that would occur in 
 the works would be said to be due to pitch, and thus 
 we should have numerous claims for compensation that 
 we should have to fight, and I am sure you will appre- 
 ciate the difficulty we should have in proving these 
 cases. 
 
 ■■ 8242. But in this particular instance we have a 
 disease it is impossible to simulate ? — The pitch wart. 
 
 8243. Yes ; a man cannot imitate a pitch wart ?— No. 
 
 8244. And unless he deliberately tries to rub the 
 pitch in it would be a very difficult thing to malinger. 
 That is as regards the warts at all events. But then 
 you may perhaps say with regard to the eyes it would 
 be possible for persons who had toad eyes from other 
 causes to claim that they were bad through pitch ? — 
 Yes ; it would ibe interesting to hear medaoal opiniton 
 as to whether a man is incapacitated from work before 
 these pitch warts appear. I have no idea myself as to 
 whether that is so or not. 
 
 8245. As far as it has gone the evidence is that it is 
 certainly not till some time after they appear that any 
 incapacity occurs, un the contrary, they say men go 
 to work with the warts, and except that they are in- 
 
 convenienced, they can easily be removed, and it is; 
 not till they are very bad that cancer supervenes. The- 
 only point you can question is as to the eyes ; but theoi 
 again there should not be the least difficulty in telling 
 whether the injury is due to pitch or some other cause. 
 We should be very glad to hear any doctor or surgeon 
 you may wish to bring forward who holds views on the 
 point. Of course, it is very desirable to hear botlv 
 sides ? — Have you had medical evidence ? 
 
 8246. "Yes, but mostly from the men's point of view, 
 I think. It all tends to show that there is a specific- 
 disease on a small scale 7 — I am. afraid w© cannot com- 
 bat that. 
 
 8247. Then you may be in for something? — But why 
 include the rest of the works ? 
 
 8248. Because at present no one has shown us con- 
 clusively that it really is confined to only one branch. 
 
 (Professor Allbutt.) And might we go further and say 
 the disease does not arise except in pitch workers ? 
 
 8249. (Dr. Zegge.) And then again there is. the ques- 
 tion of promotion. These men can get out of the dan- 
 gerous into the non-dangerous ? — Practically once a 
 pitchman always a pitchman. It is one of the best 
 paid occupations we have. 
 
 8250. (Chairman.) On the other hand, I understand 
 that the shipping is held to be one of the occupations 
 not dangerous ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8251. Is not it a fact that the shippers are precisely 
 the men who are recruited from all the other employ- 
 ments, and that a man after a certain time of service 
 in the pitch claims, and has a right, to be taken on in 
 the shipping gangs? — No ; the pitchmen never go into 
 the shipping .gang. The shipipers are never recruited 
 from their ranks. 
 
 8252. But when there is a vacancy in the shipping 
 gangs it is filled up as a right from the men who are 
 already engaged in the works in the pitch ? — Not as far 
 as our works .are concerned. In the "Atlantic" works 
 the same men ship the fuel and discharge th© pitch. 
 Both operations are done by the regular shipping gang,- 
 as .the shipping is. not sufficient to give them, full em- 
 ployment. 
 
 8253. And what do hobblers do?' — ^Regular hobblers 
 never deal with pitch, but casual hobhlers sometimes- 
 do. 
 
 8254. But they are also recruited from the pitchmen? 
 —No ; I don't think so. HobTjling is a precarious em- 
 ployment. 
 
 8255. The shippers get as much as 16s. a day? — 
 Some get £4 and £4 10s. a week in very busy times. 
 
 8256. Then there is a great competition to get into, 
 the shippers' business ? — ^Yes ; they have their friends. 
 
 8257. Don't pitchmen claim their share of promotion' 
 as much as the ho'bblers, and get it ? — No ; I have never 
 lbno.wn a case of a pitchman going shipping. 
 
 8258. Unless you show that these men absolutely 
 keep to one 'branch only, one of the reasons for separat- 
 ing them as you suggest would vanish ? — Yes. 
 
 8259. Perhaps you could draw iLp your views in a 
 statement you could make after comparing your ideas 
 with the managers of other works and send them to 
 the secretary? — That would be the better way. We 
 have had absolutely no opportunity of going into_ the- 
 matter. 
 
 8260. If you would like to draw up a report, please- 
 do so, and then if you would like to supplement it 
 with evidence I daresay one of you could come to 
 London. 
 
 8261. (Professor Allhutt.) It is ummistajkably pitch 
 disease? — Yes. 
 
 8262. (Dr. Legge.) The form the cancer assumes is 
 the least malignant form of cancer? — ^Yes. 
 
 8263. And if removed it may not recur .at all?-— W®' 
 have seen men who have had this removed 10 or 12- 
 years ago, and there has been no sign of recurrence. 
 
 8264. (C'/iairman.) Providing it is .srafficienitly re- 
 moved. It is your interest when you take a man on 
 again to see the operati'an has been complete? — ^Mi^n- 
 if he refuses to be operated on ? 
 
 8265. The answer is he will get his compensatioHr 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 253 
 
 bnt he will be never employed again, because you have 
 the right to inquire whether a man has had disease 
 before. It is very easy for you to ear-mark a man. If 
 it is proved that a man wilfully and knowingly repre- 
 sents himself in writing as not having previously suf- 
 fered from disease compensation would not be payable ? 
 Tako a case where a Tnaii has a pitch wart, and the 
 time arrives when that wart ought to be operated upon, 
 and the man refuses to be operated upon, and continues 
 at his work. 
 
 8266. Would you discharge him if he refuses to be 
 operated on? — ^We can't do that now. 
 
 8267. You will only be liable for such payment as is 
 caused by the wart. In a pitch wart there is no inca- 
 pacity, and consequently he will put himself in a diffi- 
 cult position ? — Unless he has cancer. 
 
 8268. You can say " If you don't be operated on in 
 the usual way we shall discharge you. " ? — We have had 
 numbers of cases where a medical man has informed 
 us that the person to whom we are paying compensa- 
 tion with a simple operation would be right, but the 
 man refuses to be operated on. 
 
 8269. I think you have several remedies'? — ^We have 
 now been insured in most of the leading insurance 
 companies, and they are absolutely helpless when a 
 man, refuses to be operated on. 
 
 8270. Now you are speaking of injury ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8271. None of these are cases where a man going on 
 working will make himself worse ? — These men are on 
 compensation. 
 
 8272. This is a different point from what you put. 
 Where a man has warts which may lead to cancer, you 
 have a right to say " You must be operated on. The 
 doctor says if you go on you will get cancer." You 
 can say there must be proper treatment, and if not you 
 will have only small compensation to pay? — If disease 
 is scheduled it will be simply that one disease. 
 
 8273. As at present advised, I think you may take 
 that from us. It is the warts leading to cancer and 
 eye trouble. The doctors wiU have to find a name for 
 it ? — As regards other diseases I should not think there 
 are any works where employment is so healthy. 
 
 8274. You may take it that the doctors have already 
 told us that. There is no evidence of anything else 
 but this pitch disease. 
 
 (Professor Allbutt.) The evidence about the eye comes 
 to thds! — ^that the expert to whom a case is referred 
 would not be able from mere inspection of the eye at 
 any one time to- say whether the disease were due to 
 pitch or not. He would know it was consistent witih 
 pitch, but might he due to other causes ; but if he bad 
 the whole ihistory of the case before Jiim, the man's 
 employment, and the story of the attack, he would 
 then be able in the largo majority of cases to decide 
 whether due to pitch or not. 
 
 Mr. S. L. 
 Gregor. 
 
 28 Feb. 1907. 
 
 Mr. R. O. Blswobth, m.d., f.k.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 _ 8275. (Chairman.) You are a doctor of medicine? — • 
 Yes. 
 
 8276. What is your position in Swansea. You have 
 private practice ? — Yes. 
 
 8277. Have you any official practice ? — Oh, yes ; I 
 am a surgeon of the hospital. 
 
 8278. Are you a sargson in the employment of 
 works ? — No. 
 
 8279. Or workmen?— No. 
 
 8280. Have you had any experience as a medical man 
 of pitch disease ? — No. 
 
 8281. Have you had any experience of heart disease 
 caused by occupation ? — Yes. 
 
 8282. Will you kindly tell us what your experience 
 has been with regard to heart disease? — It mostly 
 occurs in men between 40 and 50. These men are 
 workmen in steel works. 
 
 8283. (Professor Allbutt.) The information you are 
 going to give us is derived from your private practice ? 
 —Yes ; in roUer-miem in tin-plate works and workmen 
 in steel works. They present symptoms of senile heart 
 at any age between 40 and 50, and these men give me 
 the impression of being at least 10 years older than the 
 age they state. The physical signs are that the 
 patient is less capable of doing his work, and when 
 qu'sstioned he simply states he is getting short of 
 breath on going up hill or with extra exertion. 
 He has a peculiar murky skin. The first heart 
 sound is blurred, and the pulse is diacrotic, and 
 there is usually some atheroma of the vesssls. 
 The majority of cases I see axe seon before they get 
 too incapacitated for work, and by rest for a fortnight 
 to a month with the administration of a heart tonic- 
 digitalis — they are very much improved. The heart 
 sounds become much more definite, the blurring is 
 diminished, and the tension of the pulse is increased, 
 and the skin clears up, and the man expresses himself 
 usually as quite well. ' Then he goes on with his work 
 again for >a varying period, and the same is repeated. 
 Yesterday I spent the forenoon in going over some 
 cases. I do net know whether the Commission would 
 care to see them. I saw seven cases altogether between 
 40 and 52 years of age. Four of the cases showed the 
 condition I speak of quite well, but they have not got 
 yet to the stage where they have asked for treatmenit. 
 They express themselves fairly well. They remain m 
 this condition for some time, and then graduall}- they 
 will feel inability to work. 
 
 8284. What do the men actually do ? What is their 
 employment ? What are their acts ?— The roller-men 
 I take it, are employed in lifting hot bars of steel and 
 putting them into the rolls ; the hot bar is put between 
 the rolls, goes through, is caught on the other side. 
 
 and brought back again, and so on, passing, through 
 several sets of rolls. These are bars rolled into sheets. 
 
 8285. Steel plates ? — ^Yes ; in works it may be any- 
 thing. 
 
 8286. (Chairman.) You attribute heart disease to 
 the hardness of the work — the exertion ? — Yes. 
 
 8287. In fact, the same remark applies to wherever 
 a man works bard ? — Yes. 
 
 8288. (Dr. Legge.) Have you seen this particular 
 work in the rolling mills in tin-j>late wiorks? — I have 
 not seen it in tin-plate works, but in steel works. 
 
 8289. Do you know whether it is piece work of time 
 work ? — I could not say. I think piece work. 
 
 8290. Do they ever say they have to work under 
 great pressure?^ — ^No ; they say hard work, but they do 
 not express themselves as being oppressed in any way 
 with the work. 
 
 8291. Do you know lat what age they commence this 
 work? — ^I dio not know. The position of roller-man 
 is one attained by seniority. They grow up from boys, 
 and the last stage in their promotion is that of roller- 
 man. Some of these men I saw yesterday — one in 
 particular — have been in the works 30 years, about 10 
 
 ■ years I think as roller-man. 
 
 8292. Do you know tihe hours they work? — 8 houis 
 a day. 
 
 8293. Do you know what the intervals are — whether 
 tliey have to work in accordance with the firing? — 
 They are kept continually at work. The reaison I 
 state that is I masked leave to go into Ithe works and 
 take the men as they are at work, but the management 
 'Jid not care to let' me do that, although I know the 
 maniageanent, because it would interfere with the men 
 and break into their work. 
 
 8294. (Professor Allbutt.) You have bad exjpeiuence 
 of men in other works not presenting this appearance ? 
 
 This is the only type of this heavy continuous work 
 
 I am acquainted with. 
 
 8295. The mien engaged in lighter occupations do 
 not present these features ? — No. 
 
 8296. Do you think these men are specially intem- 
 perate ? ^No ; but in steel works and as roller-men 
 
 they work under considerable heat, and they suffer a 
 o-ood deal from thirst, and there is a tendency to 
 quench thirst with other than water. 
 
 8297. Do you happen to recall any oases of this kind 
 in men who belong to any teetotal society, or who are 
 notoriously temperate men ?— No ; on the other hand, 
 I should not say that the cases I have seen have been 
 immoderate men. 
 
 8298. You attribute it more to labour than drink? 
 —Yes. 
 
 MTr. B. 0. 
 Elsworth, 
 
 M.D., F.R.C.S. 
 
254 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. R. C. 8299. You see other workmen who may be driniei* 
 EUwortJi, who do not suffer in the sajne -way? — ^Yes. 
 M.D. , F.R .c.s. 8300. It is rather a dilatation of the heart?— Yes. 
 
 •_'8 Feb. 1907. 8301. The symptoms are rather in the mitral area? 
 — ^Yes ; the sound is just heard there. 
 
 8302. AJtheroma in the aortic region is not a pro- 
 minent feature? — ^No. 
 
 8303. It is rather dilatation? — Yes. 
 
 8304. Affecting both sides of the heart ? — Yes. 
 
 8305. {Dr. Legge.) Have you spoken to the medical 
 men in the other districts where these men work? — 
 No, I bavo not. It is a condition that is not very 
 much spoken, about here, and the only member of the 
 profession ini town I have had any conversation with 
 on the subject is Dr. Griffiths, and he is quit© of the 
 same opinion. 
 
 8306. (Professor Allhutt.) Aibont these heart cases ? — ■ 
 Yes, and the teian I have used', " senile heart," is the 
 only on© I can use to express it. 
 
 8307. {Br. Legge.) These men tell you th©y have to 
 give up work albout the ages you have mentioned ? — 
 No ; tihey don't give ujp work, buit they are biad, and 
 they are prematurely old men. They are restored 
 by treatment, and then have to be treated again. 
 The cases I see com© to me usually from th© surround- 
 ing parts of the town, and I see them only in consulta- 
 tion. 
 
 8308. Have you found albuimen in the urine ? — No ; 
 occasionally it occurs — not a constaiilt thing. 
 
 8309. Examdning men employed in work of this sort., 
 are there any db.aing©8 in the pulse rate that would 
 guide you? — ^No. I am very frequently attracted to 
 the point by the colour of the skin of the patients. I 
 have described it las being miurky, and the change that 
 comes over the skin lafter th© pafeienit has been treated 
 with cardiac tonics is, as I hiave oBten expressed it, 
 " like a boy's skin." 
 
 8310. {Professor AttbuH.) Carry th© point a little 
 further. This change in ildi© heart is in your opinion 
 -to ibe seen in a man engaged in bard work, as in roller 
 mills?— Yes. 
 
 8311. Thei© is nothing to distinguish it from the 
 effects of hard work in other laborious oooupations ?— 
 I could not say. I don't see those cases. 
 
 8312. As far as your opinion goes there is nothing 
 specific about it? — No. 
 
 8313. And, so far, it is oommon to all hard muscular 
 labour. If these men are as you say a tbirslty class, 
 is it not in accordance with eaperience that alcohol 
 and large consumipifcion of beer have a very definite 
 effect in deterioration of the hiearlt? — ^Yes; 
 
 8314. {Dr. Legge.) Can w© see these men? — ^I can 
 arrange for you to see them to-morrow. 
 
 (Chairman.) On Tuesday evening and Wednesday we 
 visited several factories for the ananufacture of 
 briquettes. Th© process of making briquettos consists 
 of binding pitch obtained froim. gas-works and th© slack 
 of coal. The mixing these togflther and exposing them 
 to steam until th© pitch is softened binds the powdered 
 coal into a cohesive mass. Out of this th© briquettes 
 are mad©, being pressed while hot into moulds. Dur- 
 ing th© operation of unloading th© pitch from ships and 
 from railway waggons a considerable amount of dust 
 arises, and there is more still caused by the operation 
 of breaking up th© pitch. The num'ber of men em- 
 ployed in unloading the pitoh and in the process of 
 pounding it is small relatively to the whole iMjmber 
 employed in th© making of briquettes, and un- 
 doubtedly the chief danger is confined to those men 
 who deal with th© pitch while it is in a powdered con- 
 dition. On Wednesdiay we went to exaanin© some tin- 
 plat© works, with special reference to the fumes and 
 dust which arise at certain stages of the manufacture. 
 W© noticed that in some of the rooms there appeared 
 to be a good deal of dust and fumes in the atmosphere. 
 
 TWENTY-SEVENTH DAY. 
 
 Monday, 4th March 1907. 
 
 MEMBEES PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hbkbekt Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 Professor OLirroED Allbutt, p.e.s. 
 
 Mr. Henet Cunynghame, c.b. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott {Secretary). 
 
 Mr. RoBEET Owen, l.e.c.p, l.b.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. R. Owen, 
 
 L.R.CP., 
 L.R.C.S. 
 
 4 Mar. 1907. 
 
 8315. {Chairman.) Are you in practice in Carnar- 
 vonshire ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8316. Have you had special experience of the com- 
 plaints from which slate quarrymen suffer ? — Yes ; I 
 have been amongst them for nearly 27 years altogether, 
 and I have had charge of my own practice for 15 years. 
 
 8317. Are you giving evidence on behalf of the 
 Miners' Union?— No, simply at the request of Mr. 
 Ellis Davies. 
 
 8318. Do you consider that these men suffer from 
 any diseases owing to their employment ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 8319. From what diseases ? — Pulmonary diseases. 
 
 8320. Those which you desire the Committee to in- 
 vestigate are all diseases of the respiratory system, are 
 they ?— Yes, that is all ; I do not think there is any 
 other disease due to any slate dust. 
 
 8321. Are these diseases due to dust ? — Some of them. 
 
 8322. What other causes are there ? — The first cause 
 might be exposure. Of course, the fitful nature of a 
 quarryman's occupation makes him perspire, then he 
 
 is exposed to draught, a slight cough comes on, and 
 the dust in which he works aggravates his condition, 
 and slight infiammation takes place in the tubes. 
 
 8323. Do any of the men work not in a dusty atmo- 
 sphere? — Yes, those who work in the pits. I may 
 mention that the men who work at the NantUe quar- 
 ries are quite differently situated to those who work 
 in the Festiniog quarries. 
 
 8324. As to the complaints caused by exposure, apart 
 from dust, are they any different to what other men 
 working in the open suffer from — say farm labourers? 
 • — No, in their general symptoms I do not see any 
 difference at all, and I do not believe any medical man 
 could prove, if he examined an agricultural labourei 
 Eind a slate quarryman, without making inquiries, to 
 what the disease was due, because the symptoms are 
 objectively to the eye and the stethescope the same. 
 
 8325. That is so far as diseases due to exposure are 
 concerned 1 — Yes. 
 
 8326. Therefore, really these men are suffering from 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 255 
 
 the ordinary ills to which flesh is heir to, and which 
 people who work in the open air are liable ? — Quite so. 
 
 8327. With regard to diseases caused by dust, do 
 you consider that those forms of bronchitis or phthisis 
 can he differentiated by dia/gnosis from bronciiitis or 
 phthisis in other peraens not working in a dusty atmo- 
 sphere ?^I think so, by studying the life history of the 
 quarjryman, and if one could have an opportunity of 
 watching them for some time, but seeing a quarryman 
 casually or once, I do not think one could. 
 
 8328. Could an expert medical man, who knew the 
 whole history of the case say with some degree of cer- 
 tainty whether a man's ailment was due to dust or 
 not? — I do not think so. 
 
 8328*. Not even if he knew the whole history of the 
 case ? — He could diagnose the general condition of the 
 lung, but apart from that I do not think he would be 
 able to say what was the cause of the disease unless 
 he knew the man was working in the dust. 
 
 8329. Then if he knew the whole history in every 
 respect, and was accustomed to deal with such cases, 
 do you think he would be able to say, " This man's 
 fibroid condition or this man's bronchitis is really due 
 to the occupation in which he is engaged."? — ^Yes, I 
 think so. As far as the symptoms of fibroid phthisis in 
 quarrymen go, we fi.nd them suffering, for years, and 
 gradually going down hill. 
 
 8330. Do you find a large proportion of the men who 
 work in a dusty atmosphere suffer from these troubles ? 
 — ^Yes, a good many. I will read you a few statistics 
 which I got prepared from the Registrar of our dis- 
 trict as to the Nantlle quarries. In the Gwyrfai rural 
 district the population, estimated in 1906, was 31,500 ; 
 out of that number there are 6,000 quarrymen. I in- 
 clude Llanberris in that figure, where there are about 
 
 3.000 men employed. The death rate for all classes 
 per 1,000 is 17.8, and of -persons over 65 4.8 per 1,000 
 of the whole population ; for phthisis in all persons 
 
 3.1 per 1,000 ; for other pulmonary diseases 2.4 per 
 1,000, making a total for respiratory diseases of 5.5. 
 That is the report of the rural district Registrar. 
 Then I com© to Namtlle, a part of th© Gwyrfai district, 
 with an estimated population of 13,612. Out of that 
 number there are 2,500 quarrymen. The number of 
 quarrymen over 20 years of age who died in 1905 of 
 phthisis was 17, bronchitis 4, pneumonia 7, making a 
 total of 28 out of 2,500 quarrymen. I do not include 
 anybody except quarrymen over 20 years of age, be- 
 cause, as a rule, we reckon they are fairly well set at 
 20 years of age. That gives a percentage of 11.2 per 
 1,000 for pulmonary disaaes in quarrymen. It was a 
 little less in 1906, when the figures were : Quarrymen 
 dying of phthisis 14, bronchitis 3, pneumonia 5, 
 making a total of 22 out of a total of 2,500, or 8-8 per 
 1,000. 
 
 8331. Do you get pneumonia at all with dust? — ^No, 
 I do not. Of course, there is a special germ or microbe 
 for pneumonia, but the slafte dust might prepare the 
 ground for inocoilartioni. 
 
 8332. Those men whom you have enumerated as 
 being quarrymen include large numbers of quarrymen, 
 I suppose, who are not working in a dusty atmosphere ? 
 —Yes, all the quaarymen — those men who work in the 
 pits— a«. stronger than, the men working in the mills. 
 
 8333. Would it be possible to ascertain how many 
 of the workers working in the mills die from bron- 
 chitis or phthisis? — ^Yes, we could give that figure if 
 every medical man would inquire where his patient 
 had been working. 
 
 8334. There are not any figures available, are there, 
 showing that?— No, the Registrar takes them all as 
 quarrymen, but, personally, I know every one of these 
 men who died. 
 
 8335. Has your own experience been that you have 
 observed fibrosis of the lung to be very prevalent 
 amongst the quarrymen who work in the mills ? — Yes, 
 markedly prevalent. 
 
 8336. (Professor Allhutt.) Do you attach any im- 
 portance to the sulphur in the slate?— No, I do not 
 think so. I have here a specimen of the slate, and 
 the dust from it is very dangerous when it flies about. 
 
 8337. Does this specimen show the veins ? — I brought 
 it to show the impurities we find in the slate. 
 
 8338. And what bearing has it upon the health of 
 the man?— The parts fly about when it is pulverised 
 by the instrument used — the knife, chisel, or ham- 
 
 mer ; the dust flies about, makes its way into the Mr. £. Owen 
 
 nostrils, and so into the lunes. l.r.'c.p., 
 
 8339. Shortly, is it irritant to the lungs?— Yes. l-R-C.s. 
 
 8340. Do you mean that the slaty portion is not 4 Mar. 1907. 
 injurious, but that the vein is ? — I believe the vein — '■ — 
 and the quartz is more irritant to the tubes than the 
 
 dust itself. 
 
 8341. The sulphur is not so important as the 
 mechanical dust, I take it 2— We can detect the smell 
 of the sulphur. 
 
 8342. But do you think it is injuriouis ? — Yes. 
 
 8343. What do you think the sulphur does ; is it 
 also an iritant? — It is. 
 
 8344. It adds to the irritation, does it? — Yes. 
 
 8345. Then you do not think the dust in the slaty 
 portion is injurious ? — Oh, yes, it is. 
 
 8346. Then you think both are injurious, but the 
 quartz veins the more so?— Yes. We find very little 
 of them. 
 
 8347. The veins form really a very small proportion 
 of the whole? — ^Yes, but you find after you cut across 
 the veins with a knife the dust flies about. 
 
 8348. Even if this vein is, as it appears to be, a small 
 element in the dust produced, nevertheless the slate 
 dust without this veinous portion is sufficient to set 
 up irritation. And the proportion of sulphur forms on 
 the whole a very small proportion, does it not ? — Yes, it 
 does. I have here a sample of the ordinary dust. 
 
 8349. (Chairman.) Is the work carried on in the 
 open air? — No, in a shed in the mills. 
 
 8350. Is the ventilation good in the mills? — ^Yes. 
 You might call it draughty. 
 
 9351. (Professor Allbutt.) I have asked you those 
 questione in consequence of the statement you make 
 in your proof, " Slate dust, being inorganic in 
 character, it is more injurious than organic dust, such 
 as cotton and flour." We do not know that mercf 
 carbonaceous coal dust, apart from any silicious 
 matter, is injurious to the lungs, do we? — I thought 
 that the dust being inorganic in its character, it is 
 more injurious to the bronchial tubes than if it was 
 nearer to an organic product. 
 
 8352. Whatever may be the case with coal, you arc 
 certainly of opinion that pure slate dust, even apart 
 from quartz and so> on, is injurious ? — ^Yes, I am. 
 
 8353. By attaching itself to the walls of the bron- 
 chial tubes and setting up irritation? — Yes. 
 
 8354. And that this produces a new material which 
 thickens and fills and surrounds the air vesicles of the 
 lung and finally transforms it into a fibroid mass? — 
 Yes. 
 
 8355. Yon make a very important statement later 
 in your proof with regard to expectoration, which you 
 say is ofibeh charged with slate dust?l — ^Yes. 
 
 8356. Do you consider that it comes from, the mouth 
 and upper passages, or does it dome from the lungs ? — 
 -^Yes, it is coughed up. 
 
 8357. It is not merely in the frothy superficial part 
 of the spittle, but is intimately mixed with the bron- 
 chial expectoration, is it ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8358. Do you ever find it inside ceUs?— No, I think 
 not. 
 
 8359. The Chairman asked you a question with re- 
 gard to the distinction between this form of bron- 
 chitis and other forms. The examination of the spu- 
 tum would be of assistance in determining that, would 
 it not? — Yes. Of course, we might find slate dust 
 in it. 
 
 8360. Would you go as far as to say it would be 
 decisive ?— Yes, I think it would. 
 
 8361. Is the tuberculosis which may supervene upon 
 fibrous' bronchitis common, or might one observe 
 cases through the whole course without it ? — Yes, one 
 might. In one or two caises where I made 
 a post-mortem examination I had permission 
 to see the chest well and the lung, aaid in 
 that case the man was ill for a good many years ; in 
 fact, I attended him twenty years ago for pneumonia, 
 but he hung on and eventually died after being ill 
 three or four years. It was put down by several 
 medical men that he was suffering from tubercular 
 disease of the lung. Then I got the sputum examined 
 
256 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mi: if. Owen, 
 
 L.E.C.P., 
 L.E.C.S. 
 
 4 Mar. 1907. 
 
 for tubercular bacilli ; we did not find any, but still, 
 the man was dying. So we considered it a case of 
 purely fibroid phthisis. 
 
 8362. Youj- diagnosis was not much affected by inter- 
 curi>enoe of tubercle at relatively eaj"ly dates ? — No. 
 
 8553. The disease runs its characteristic course 
 wittihout it?— Yes. 
 
 8364. Another point in diagnosis on which you 
 would rely, I suppose, is upon the bilateral affection 
 of the lungs ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8365. As regards the fibrosis of the lung, do you 
 think fibrosis can be distinguished during life, or is 
 it a matter of presumption? — ^It is a matter of in- 
 ference from the objective symptoms you find. 
 
 8366. Can you detect solid areias in the lung 
 affected? — Yes, you find them, bilateral as a rule, and 
 you find them posteriorly. 
 
 8367. The fibrosis is, then, an inference from the 
 physical signs ? — Taking everything into consideration, 
 we might fairly infer that we were dealing with a case 
 of fibrosis. 
 
 8368. Supposing you had two men both admittedly 
 suffering from this form of disease, could you eay which 
 of the two had the more fibrosis? — No, I do- not think 
 you could without taking everything into consideration 
 — 'the duration of the disease, and so on. 
 
 8369. Then your inference that fibrosis is present 
 depends upon your general pathological knowledge 
 rather than upon the examination of the particular 
 patient .P — Yes. I have had an opportunity of seeing 
 two cases, and tuberculosis was a secondary feature. 
 
 8370. Is there any fever in these cases ? — No, it is 
 not a characteristic of them. 
 
 8371. And accordingly there are no emaciation and 
 night sweats as a rule? — There will be emaciation, 
 but not night swea.ts until within a short- time of death. 
 Emaciation continues for some time. 
 
 8372. What is the ordinary duration of a case oif 
 this kind? — It depends on the circumstances and the 
 opportunities of the patient. 
 
 8373. Would it be five years or fifteen years ? — I 
 do not think I could put any duration. Of course, if 
 a man is able to take care of himself, go for a holiday, 
 keep the disease off, go to work again, he may linger 
 for a long time, whereas a poor man could not do the 
 same. I am not prepared to say how long it con- 
 tinues ; it depends entirely on circumstances. 
 
 8374. But you have a rule of thumb impression, if a 
 man comes to you and asks you how long he is likely 
 to live if he continues at work, have you not ; whether 
 a veiry short time, or a very long time ? — I do not think 
 I could put an estimate on it. 
 
 8375. For some time it would not incapacitate him, 
 would it ? — No, not for some years. 
 
 8376. Do you think he might go on working for, say, 
 five years ? — He may be able to do more than that. 
 
 8377. For ten years ?— Yes. 
 
 8378. These troubles in the lungs lead secondarily 
 to heart failure, do- they not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8379. In the returns of deaths cardiac changes would 
 take rather a prominent place among slate workers, 
 I siupposei? — ^Yesi, and we find a good many deaths 
 from heairt failure and heart ddsieases ; I think they 
 might bei secondaiy tO' this fibrosis. 
 
 9380. In the photograph slide which you produce we 
 see pulmonary tissue, and scattered about in the tissue 
 there are yellow massesi and streaks — how doi you in- 
 terpret these ; they are the morbid part, I presume ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 8381. Then the dust works into^ tubes as minute as 
 those, does it 7 — I think it does. 
 
 8382. Was there dilatation of the large bronchial 
 tubes, in consequence of the fibrosis, in the two post- 
 mortems you made?— No!, I think not. I mention it 
 as an inference rather. 
 
 8383. Are you able to fumisU us with reports of 
 the post-mortemsi you, made?L-Yes', I can read them 
 now from my notes: "Report of the post-mortem 
 a. K 48 years, slate quairrier, working in a quarry 
 tor ^5 years. Permission only was given to open and 
 examine the chest. Hie body was that of a man over 
 6 ft., very emaciated, and looked 10 years odder than 
 his age. Frequent attacks oi (r (ichitis during the 
 
 last 20 years. Three years before he died he began to 
 lose flash, and was short of breatli. Bronchitis fol- 
 lowed by a good deal of expeictoration, which was 
 muco purulent ; when his complaint was far advanced 
 he was told that he was suffering from tubercular 
 consumption, but whten his spoitum was examined, 
 which was done repeatedly, no tubercle bacilli was 
 present. Then the thought occurred to uis that the 
 patient was suffering from non-tubercular disease of 
 the lung — ^that is fihi-osis. He became weaker ; Bright's 
 disease followed, and he soon died." That is the his- 
 tory of the case. On examination the right lung was 
 adherent to the chest wall. The adhesions were so 
 thick and iirmi that they bad to lae cut with a knife. 
 The pleura was adherent. The lung did not collapse 
 when removed from the body. The left lung wasi not 
 adherent to the chtest wall. In the right lung the 
 pleura was very thick. The bronchi of both lungs wera 
 greatly thickened, and surrounded by dense bands of 
 fibrous tissue. Both lungs were diminished in size; 
 they were hard and dense, almost like cartilage. Both 
 lungsi were somewhat of a buff colour, but there was 
 no distinct pigment observed. The bronchi contained 
 much mucus and pus. On miscroscopical ex- 
 amination of the lung it was found to be a real speci- 
 men of fibrotic lung tissue. This is partly a report 1 
 had' from Glasgow, where I sent a tissue toi be ex- 
 amined. The walls of the air cells were thickened, 
 also the walls of the minute arteries were in the same 
 condition. The bronchial glands were enlarged (that is 
 my own obseirvation), and of a peculiar colour. They 
 were nothing like the glands you find in a. coal miner. 
 In this case no tubercular cavities were found ; there 
 was noi breaking down of the lung. The second case 
 is not so important, as tubeiroular disease supervened, 
 but the general condition of the lung was the same. I 
 made no microscopical examination in that case. 
 
 8384. Generally, in your opinion, so far as you can 
 judge, and in the absence of proof by post-mortem 
 examination, from what you have clinically seen do 
 yooi believe that the symptoms are characteristic of the 
 disease? — ^I do. 
 
 8385. (Br. legge.) Do I gather that of this list of 
 chest diseases which you mention, the one that in- 
 cludes them all, in your opinion, is the last — fibroid 
 phthisis ? — Yes. 
 
 8386. And that would include the bronchitis if it 
 occurred ? — I refer to bronchitis as an acute attack. 
 
 8387. May we disregard that then ?— Yes. 
 
 838S. But there is a bronchitis associated with fibroid 
 phthisis, I suppose ? — ^Yes ; you never see a case of 
 fibroid phthisis without bronchitis. 
 
 8389. So that it wo'uld include the bronchitis when 
 the men were incapacitated from it f — Yes. 
 
 8390. Would it also include pneumonia? — I point 
 out pneumonia as acute. 
 
 8391. So that it might be excluded ?^— It might be 
 excluded. 
 
 8392. And asthma ?i — That might be accompanied with 
 the fibrosis'. 
 
 8393. Havei yo'U ever known cases which you have 
 diagnosed as fibroid phthisis, where the men have left 
 the work and got apparently quite well ?— Yes, I have 
 seen farm labourers go into the quarry, where they 
 work for a. ooup'le of years, and then have to leave, as 
 they are not fit to stand it, but they soon get better. 
 
 8394. They do not go from bad to worse?— No, 
 except in the case of the Festiniog quarries, where 
 they work underground, and where they soon get pale 
 and thin. 
 
 8395. By " soon," do' you mean in the course of five 
 years ?^— Less than that. 
 
 8396. Many must be working there now who are in 
 this condition, I suppose ?— Yes ; in fact I have fiveor 
 SIX cases now who are in the last stage of consumption. 
 
 8397. Supposing this condition were scheduled as a 
 disease for which compensation should be payable, do 
 you imagine that many of these men would be dis- 
 charged ?— Yes, in my opinion, I do not think it would 
 be advisable to put them down for compensation. 
 
 ES98. Why ?— Because it is so very difficult to prove, 
 and the condition might be caused by something else. 
 
 8399. But would it not be better for them to be made 
 to leave the work than to go on and contract the 
 
DEPARTMENTAL. COMMITTEE QN INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 257 
 
 ffliseasB, and go ffom bad to worse ? — ^Yes, but you would 
 jthrow almost tlie whole population out of work. 
 
 8400. Are there many other medical men in practice 
 4n your district besides yourself ? — Yes, there are five. 
 
 8401. And you say, I understand, that you have five 
 .or six people under trealiment now ? — Yes. 
 
 8402. Do you suppose the other medical men also 
 *ach have five or six people under treatment 1 — Yes, it 
 inight be so. 
 
 8403. So that there would be 35 out of a total of 
 2,500 under treatment ? — Yes, I have charge of about 800 
 -quarrymen, so that I have to deal with a third of the 
 ^otal number. 
 
 8404. -But the number you attend is not 1 per cent., 
 .is it?— No. 
 
 8405. {Professor Allbutt.) Have you 600 mill men 
 junder your care? — No, quari^men as well as mill men. 
 
 8406. How many miU men do you think you have 
 junder your care ^-About 600, I suppose. 
 
 8407. Do they move aibout 'between the miU and 
 :the quarry? — ^Yes. 
 
 SWR. (Chairman.) Out of the 800 men under your 
 scare how many are mill men? — The total number of 
 «late quarry men is 2,500, one^ third being employed in 
 sthe miUs — that is 800. 
 
 8409. Then out of the 800 quarrymen under your 
 ■care something like 270 would be mill men ? — Yes. 
 
 8410. And out of them you have four cases ? — ^More 
 than that. I have three or four in the last stage. 
 
 8411. {Dr. Legge.) Still working or incapacitated It- 
 Incapacitated ; in bed. 
 
 8412. Are the others you attend still working? — 
 Yes. I consider the mills as a kind of convalesoent 
 ^ound for these quarry men they are not fit to go to 
 "the pits, but they can hang on at the mills, do what 
 thiey like, and earn as much as or as little as they 
 likei. 
 
 8413. (Chairman.) But there isi more dust in the 
 mills, is there not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8414. And therefore it is more dangerous, it it not ? 
 — ^It is more dangerous ; they go there simply to die. 
 
 8415. (Dr. Legge.) Can you give us any idea as to 
 how long the men in the last stage have been under 
 jour treatment? — ^Yes. One man, aged about 24, 
 two years ago had an attack of bronchitis and some 
 slight congestion of the lungs ; he worked about a year 
 after that, but six months. ago he had ito give up 'his 
 -work, .and is gradually dying. 
 
 8416. Had he worked there for 10 years 1 — Yes. 
 
 8417. And you have no doubt that it is fibroid 
 phthisis? — It might be accompanied with tubercle ; I 
 lave not examined his sputum, but I intend doing it. 
 
 8418. Is that an exceptionally young case? — It is 
 "the youngest of the .five or six I have in my mind, 
 ^ut I remember a few others that very likely I shall 
 liave some trouble with. 
 
 8419. Have you ever seen an analysis of slate dust ? 
 — ^No. 
 
 8420. (Mr. Cunynghame.) The disease of which we 
 are speaking at this minute is fibroid phthisis, arising 
 from dust, is it not? — ^Yes. 
 
 8421. If that or something equivalent to it wa.s put 
 into the schedule, do you an-bioipate at once con- 
 siderable hardship to the old mea? — To the younger 
 3nen. We find the disease mostly in the middle-aged 
 3nen. 
 
 8422. I will put it with regard to men who have it 
 already, and who would probably be discharged ? — Any- 
 body with a cough or a dight catarrh might be stopped 
 .at once. 
 
 8423. Can you suggest any means whereby this hard- 
 ship coufd be obviated ?^No, I do not think I coul<? 
 suggest anything. 
 
 8424. Would it be any good to postpone any opera- 
 tion of the particular schedule for a certain number 
 •01 ye^s?— At present I would advocate that. I do 
 Bot thmk We have sufficient proof that slate dust 
 causes the fibrosis, though in my own mind I believe 
 It does. 
 
 Ui?^^' ^° ^°^ mean you do not consider it proved, 
 auhough it is your belief ? — Without more microscopi- 
 cal and post-mortem examination I would certainly 
 
 8426. Do you mean it is more a suspicion in;your,.jyy £ Owen 
 mind than an absolute scientific demonstration ? — In i, r c P ' 
 my opinion I think I have sufficient ground in the case l!h c s ' 
 
 I have examined for eaying that the fibrosis was cer- ' ' 
 tainly proved, for the man had been working many 4 Mar. 1907. 
 years in the slate dust. 
 
 8427. Suppose it was proved, do I understand you to 
 say it would be better to. put off the insertion in the 
 schedule of this particular disease for a time in order 
 to give a period of respite to those who are already 
 in, and who might be discharged? — My own opinion 
 would be to postpone it. 
 
 8428. Then you suggest, do you, partly for the com- 
 pletion of the proof, and partly to enable people to 
 make their arrangements, that you would postpone it ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 8429. Could you give us an idea of the number of 
 years, supposing it to be postponed, it would be neces- 
 sary or expedient to postpone it on the ground of 
 giving an opportunity to those who are in the business 
 to make arrangements to get out of it ? — Seeing that 
 the disease lasts for so many yeaiis I should certainly 
 postpone it for five or seven years. 
 
 8430. Do you mean, even admitting it was a disease, 
 it would be best to. have it postponed for five or even 
 seven years before any proceedings came into opera- 
 tion? — Yes, and trying to see the case proved by post- 
 mortem. 
 
 8431. (Chairman.) You said, I understood, if this 
 disease were scheduled, the effect would be that half 
 the population would be thrown out of work? — Yes, 
 they would be under suspicion if they had a cough or 
 slight catarrh. 
 
 8432. But the employers would have to get their 
 work done by somebody — is there an absolutely un- 
 limited supply of labour ? — That, of course, is true, 
 but it would be a great hardship on the ordinary 
 worker, who might live for many years with this 
 disease, whereas if the manager were to spot him 
 coughing, and getting thinner, he might discharge 
 him. 
 
 6433. (Professor Allhuit.) Then what he would do 
 surely wovdd be to. refer the case to a medical officer 
 concerned with the men, would he not. Is there a 
 regular medical attendant at these quarries ? — Yes. 
 
 8434. Then in the case of a mere ordinary catarrh 
 the opinion of the medical man would be that he was 
 not suffering from phthisis, would it not ? — But he 
 would not be able to prove it. 
 
 8435. But his opinion would be that he was not * 
 suffering from phthisis, and I gather from such statis- 
 tical evidence as you can give us that the number of 
 oases in which a medical referee would definitely say : 
 
 " This man, in my opinion, is suffering from phthisis," 
 is very few ? — ^Very few. 
 
 8436. Therefore one does not quite see that the 
 opinion of the medical man — because, after all, it 
 would come to that in the end — would disorganise the 
 trade, if it only went against a small fraction. It is 
 a very serious thing that these men should be allowed 
 to go on dying under these conditions, is it not? — 
 There is no doubt the proportion is high — 11.2 per 
 1,000. 
 
 8437. We have had evidence, not merely from your- 
 self, to the same effect — from another witness, and it is 
 a large problem. It does- not apply merely to slate, 
 but to a large number of industries, and it appears to 
 us that although postponement may be wise, it is a 
 very pressing question. Do not you think, therefore, 
 you are a little undervaluing the assistance medical 
 men could give in these cases, the assistance they 
 could give to the employers. No doubt the employers 
 would organise some system of medical examination, 
 and it appears to me that a medical man would be of 
 great assistance in discriminating cases which are 
 genuine, and in cases of suspicion they might test the 
 man. after, another yeai-, might they not? — Yes, we 
 might pass an opinion that a mau might be able to 
 work for some years. 
 
 8437*. And in a large number of cases it would 
 turn out that the case was not one of dust phthisis, but 
 one of a more transitory kind, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 8438. After some preliminary experience it does not 
 appear to me that the amount of men thrown out 
 of eniiployment would be very large? — It would create 
 a great calamity at the beginning. 
 
 8439. Are you prepared to go into the inquiry 
 why the dust is not removed? — I have thought 
 
258 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 L.K.C.P. 
 
 L.U.C.S. 
 
 4 Mar. 1907. 
 
 Mr. R. Owen ^ ™y ^'f^, ^^'^^ ^ know the trade pretty well, and the 
 ' matter of removing the duet is very difficult. 
 
 8440. Do you not know that it has, during the last 
 five or ten years, been dealt with very successfully in 
 a large number of industries ? — Yes. 
 
 8441. Would not that be possible here?— The slate 
 dust is very heavy, and whatever process we use as a 
 ventilator at the top of the mill it is very difficult to 
 drag it away without causing very severe draught. 
 
 8442. You mean ventilating the building. I dare 
 say yoii have seen hoods of various kinds which are 
 used in dusty occupations. If some kind of hood oould 
 be applied to the sawing machines in the mills with a 
 strong draught do not you think the dust could be 
 removed ? — It would be very difficult to employ hoods, 
 I think. Water, I thought, might be a, great help to 
 lay the dust, but that again in summer dries up 
 quickly. 
 
 8443. In sawing slate, like sawing stone, I suppose 
 water is used, ajid the dust is wet, yet some of it rises ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 8444. But it must get di-y before it rises ? — ^In winter, 
 of course, they do not complain so much. 
 
 8445. In going round the mills do not you think you 
 would find on the ledges and on the floors quantities 
 of dry slate dust ? — Yes. 
 
 8446. Why is it there ? — Because it is so very heavy. 
 It does not go up, and you find the rafters very clean. 
 
 8447. But it rises as high as the men's faces fcy 
 allowing the dust, which is wet when formed, to get 
 dry ?— Yes. 
 
 8448. (Chairman.) You said you thought all these 
 diseases from which men suffer through their employ- 
 ment might be covered by the term fibroid phthisis. 
 
 but do you never get a case of a man incapacitatedi 
 from work through simple bronchitis, which is due t* 
 his dusty occupation? — Yes. 
 
 8449. Would you consider that to be a case of fibroid 
 phthisis. It might develop into one later, but ahouli 
 you say it was at the time ? — I take all the signs ani 
 symptoms into consideration. As a rule, bronchitis is 
 only a fitful attack, but in fibroid phthisis you nevef 
 get rid of it. 
 
 8450. Supposing you have a man suffering for two or 
 three weeks from bronchitis, which you think is due to 
 his dusty occupation, should you say it was a case of 
 phthisis. There is a distinction, is there not, to be- 
 drawn between the two things ? — Yes. 
 
 8451. You said, in answer to Dr. Legge, that all 
 these respiratory diseases from which the men suffer 
 owing to their occupation might be put down under- 
 the one head " fibroid phthisis " — is that what you 
 really wish to convey to the Committee ? — I would not 
 like to say that, because I am sure I could detect a. 
 good many cases of bronchitis alone without traces- 
 of fibroid phthisis with it. 
 
 8452. Which is due to the dust ?— The dust might, 
 aggravate it. 
 
 8453. (Br. Legge.) But it would be more difficult t* 
 say in bronchitis it was due to dust than in a case of 
 fibroid phthisis ? — Yes, bronchitis might be caused by- 
 exposure to the cold, and the dust might aggravate it. 
 
 8454. Is bronchitis due to slight exposure to col4 
 more difficult to diagnose than bronchitis which is due 
 to fibroid phthisis ? — I do not think there would b» 
 any difference at all, except that the bronchitis from 
 exposure would get better, and the bronchitis alone • 
 with the fibroid phthisis would never get better. 
 
 Mr. A. Rowley Moody, m.b., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. A. R. 8455. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man in practice 
 Mo cdy, M .B. in StafiTordshire ?- Yes. 
 
 8456. Are you giving evidence here at the request 
 of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain? — That is 
 so. 
 
 8457. Have you had many years practice amongst 
 minprs ? — Yss, 'since 1884. 
 
 8458. Are you able to tell the Committee the diseases 
 from which they suffer? — ^Yes. 
 
 8459. First, with reference to nystagmus, have you 
 had in your experience many cases? — Yes, a consider- 
 able number. 
 
 8460. Do you consider that it is an easy and a sim- 
 ple thing to determine in any given case whether it 
 is nystagmus or not? — I think so. 
 
 8461. An expert ooculist could tell, could he, in all 
 cases ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8462. Do you think: it is possible to imitate the 
 symptoms of nystagmus ? — I think it is impossible. 
 
 8463. Are you of opinion that this disease arises, in 
 the case of miners, from t' ■vtx employment ? — ^Yes, abso- 
 lu-tely so*. 
 
 8464. Nystagmus may arise from association with 
 other diseases, I suppose ? — Yes, a disease of the spine 
 or ibrain, or from imperfections of sigiffj at child- 
 hood. 
 
 8455. Do miners suffer from those diseases of the 
 brain and spine and ailment of the eyes in childhood 
 like other people? — ^They do. 
 
 8466. Therefore you might come across, here and 
 there, a case of nystagmus due to either of those causes 
 and not from the occupation ? — I have seen cases which 
 I believe have been hastened by diseases of the eye in 
 childhood, but I think it would be almost impossible 
 to expect to find njrstagmus from a disease of the brain 
 or spine in a working miner. 
 
 8467. Why is that ?— Because the diseases would in- 
 capacitate him from being a miner. 
 
 8468. Would it be easy in such a case to show 
 that the nystagmus did arise from brain or spine 
 disease, and not from the occupation ? — Quite easy. 
 
 8469. In any case, I presume such cases as that would 
 be exceedingly rare ? — Exceedingly rare. 
 
 8470. Are you of opinion, speaking on behalf of the 
 Miners' Federation, that this disease ought to be made 
 a subject for compensation? — I quite think so. 
 
 8471. Do you think it would lead to many men being 
 
 thrown out of employment on the ground that they 
 were likely to suffer from nystagmus? — ^Not in most 
 mines. Where thin seams are worked, as in the Sheffield 
 district, cases are undoubtedly more frequent. 
 
 8472. Do you think that it might sometimes Happen 
 that employers would require their men to submit to 
 examination by an occulist, and if it were found they 
 were developing nystagmus, that they might be dis- 
 missed before they were incapacitated ? — I do not think 
 it would. 
 
 8473. In any case, you think it might be better for 
 a man to lose his employment than to become incapaci- 
 tated by nystagmus? — Or to incur danger in a mine 
 through it — ^I think so. 
 
 8474. (Professor Allbuti.) Does nystagmus always 
 incapacitate the miner ? — No, I do not think sa. 
 
 8475. Are there any means of distinguishing between 
 the malingerer who has nystagmus, but who could 
 work, and the man who has nystagmus which incapa- 
 citates him?— I think it is almost impossible. Thft 
 only way I would be able to judge would be by the past 
 history of the man. 
 
 8476. Do you think the number of cases of nystagmus, 
 which do not incapacitate, but which might lead tO' 
 incapacity, form the larger proportion ?— No, I think 
 not. I think if a man complains, he is incapacitated, 
 in my experience. 
 
 8477. As things now are ?— Yes. 
 
 8478. But I am assuming compensation to be pa.id to 
 these men, which would bring them up to a very miid» 
 larger numlber, -srould it not?— -My experience is 
 gained, to a large extent, from men who have come 
 to me for help in their trouble. 
 
 8479. I am assuming the Act to be in force, and the- 
 sufferers to 'be entitled to compensation. A man with 
 nystagmus, who would now go contentedly on aad no' 
 be much the worse for it, would have it open to h,imto 
 say, " I am incapacitated by it." Can you contradict 
 him ? — I do not think you can. 
 
 8480. Can you say whether, of the w'hol© number of 
 cases of nystagmus, such cases of false allegations migit 
 be a large proportion? — I think they might. 
 
 8481. (Chairman.) Turning to the question of beat 
 hand, the Committee have had previously in evidence- 
 the symptoms, but do you find men obliged to giT» 
 up their employment for" a time through bM* haodi'— 
 Barely only. 
 
 6482. But sometimes they are inoap'"^*'-ated. at* 
 they? — Sometimes they are. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 259 
 
 8483. For iiow long a period ? — Of course, the inca- 
 pacity would last until the conditions were removed. 
 
 8<t84. About how long does that take, as a rule ? — I 
 .should say three ■weeks if submitted to operation. 
 
 8485. Do you think that is a proper subject for oom- 
 jjensation ? — 'Yes, I think so ; I believe it is due to the 
 jninar's trade. It is. not a special thing, peculiar to 
 .miners only, but still, I believe it is due to their trade. 
 
 8486. May the same thing be said of beat knee ? — I 
 ihink so ; that is exceedingly common also in the thin 
 seams, where the men have to go about much on their 
 ■elbows and knees. 
 
 8487. Is there a beat elbow also? — There is a miner's 
 *lbow. 
 
 3. Does that incapacitate from employment? — 
 JTes, I think more so than beat knee. 
 
 1 6489. Then ought not that to be certainly scheduled 
 ! lif the other things are scheduled ? — I think so. 
 
 8490. What are the symptoms of the miner's elbow ? 
 ■> —The bursa at the back of the elbow joint gets en- 
 
 darged and painful, and the men using the elbow as 
 i;a fvdcrum in working cannot continue to do so. 
 
 8491. And is a man stopped from working alto- 
 ..;gether? — ^Yes, he is stopped from working altogether, 
 ;-or if it gets chronic he works under difficulties. 
 
 l," 8492. Do yO'U get chronic cases of beat hand and 
 i;3)eat knee ? — Yes, they are mostly chronic. 
 
 8483. Does the hand or the knee get worse from time 
 ':tiO time, and incapacitate the man ? — It gradually gets 
 '-■worse until it is interfered with. I see the same thing 
 ■'■with horses, not men. A horse runs on his finger and 
 '-- it is a common thing to see a London cab horse with 
 .rliis knee bent over. That, I believe, is due to the con- 
 ■ traotion of the flexor fascia from the concussion with 
 
 the iron hoof on the roads. That is a similar thing 
 
 io the miner's beat hand. 
 
 8494. Can you differentiate these three injuries, beat 
 hand, beat knee, and miner's elbow, from any other 
 similar ailments with certainty among people with 
 different occupations ? — No. 
 
 i 8495. Are there any injuries to the hand, knee, or 
 
 •elbow, which so closely resemble these that it would 
 be difficult to say in any given case, " This is a trade 
 
 ;3njury, and is not one of the ordinary ailments that 
 most people suffer from " ? — It is possible that rheu- 
 matism may afieot the flexor tendon, and I believe does 
 
 'do so, but it would be quite easy to find out whether 
 at was the palmar fascia or the flexor tendon which 
 ■.was affected. 
 
 5. Do you think any medical man could different- 
 'Siate the two things? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 849*7. (Professor Allhutt.) Do you regard miners' beat 
 hajid as the saone pathological process as that which is 
 '^emerally known as Dupuytren's contraction? — I do. 
 
 - 8498. Do you meet with any conditions of the palm 
 of the hand leading to deep suppuration in miners ? 
 — I have seen it. 
 
 That is not what you call beat hand ? — ^No, I 
 ^^elieve that is" frequently caused by small particles 
 leing forced in. 
 
 '. .8500. May I take it that whatever you call it, it is 
 ja disease upon which you have tendered the evidence 
 ,,you have given ; but that there is also ajiother malady, 
 'to which you have given the name of beat hand, which 
 
 M identical with Dupuytren's contraction? — Yes. 
 
 When I say beat hand, I mean Dupuytren's contraction. 
 
 8501. Anyone who handles a tool may suffer from 
 ^^-^ — Yes. I have seen it in horse collar workers and 
 
 f'golfers. 
 
 8502. Do you know the view taken in Scotland of 
 «eat hand?— No ; I cannot say that I do. 
 
 j 8503. That the name signifies only the acute inflam- 
 matory condition, and not the chronic Dupuytren's 
 
 "Contraction form ?— No, I was not aware of that. 
 
 I 8504. {Mr. Cvmynghame.) Is it like writers' cramp 
 n any way?— No ; quite different. 
 
 8505. (Chairman.) Taking cases of poisoning by 
 carbonic oxide, how long does the incapacity last in 
 *nat case ? — Not very long, in my experience, when the 
 ^«n are removed from the poison. 
 
 8506. It never lasts so long as a week ? — No. 
 
 8507. Therefore a man suffering from it could not 
 *e the subject of compensation ?— No. 
 
 419 
 
 8508. Then I presume it is a sudden poisoning, and 
 
 is caused by accident? — Yes, or bj working close to a -''^'" ^- -S. 
 gob fire. Those are the cases in which I have had it Mo ody, m.b. 
 observed when it slowly comes on, and not in an acute 4 v[„r iq,)7 
 form. ' 
 
 8509. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You said "slowly comes 
 on " ; but if it were an accident, it would be sudden, 
 would it not? — It comes on in the course of a few 
 weeks, working where the men are exposed to the 
 gases which are produced by a gob— that is, the im- 
 perfect combustion of carbon. 
 
 8510. What are the effects — sudden prostration? — 
 Not sudden, but gradual. 
 
 8511. Then it is not an accident? — That would not 
 be an accident. 
 
 8512. Then you say it is a disease, do you 1 — Yes ; 
 it produces a diseased condition of the blood. 
 
 8513. How long does it last ? — The effects pass away 
 pretty quickly when the men are removed from the 
 poison. 
 
 8514. Do they always last less than a week? — I do 
 not say always less than a week, but it would take a 
 comparatively short time to get them right. 
 
 8515. Does it seem worth scheduling as a regular 
 chronic trade disease ? Assuming a miner is over- 
 powered by an accident, he gets compensation under 
 the accident clauses. Is it worth while specifying it 
 as a miner's disease? — I do not think it is. 
 
 8516. (Chairman.) Have you ever come across a 
 case in which a man was prevented from working 
 for over a week by it ? — No ; I have known many cases 
 where the men have not been able to work on to the 
 full of their powers, but I have never known a case 
 where a man has been away more than a week. 
 
 8517. With reference to fibrosis of the lung, are you 
 of opinion that coal miners contract this disease 
 through the inhalation of coal dust? — I am most 
 strongly of that opinion. 
 
 8518. Have you come across many cases yourself? — 
 Yes ; many. 
 
 8519. Were they cases in mines where the seams are 
 pure coal, or were they in mines in which there is 
 an admixture of stone, or some other mineral with the 
 coal ? — They relate to all — pure coal, coal mixed with 
 iron-stone, and coal and stone. 
 
 8520. Have you yourself come across cases of miners 
 suffering from fibrosis of the lung who have been 
 engaged exclusively in mines where there is nothing 
 but coal? — Yes. 
 
 8521. Are you quite convinced That coal dust is an 
 irritant of the lung that would cause this disease? — 
 I am quite sure of it. 
 
 8522. (Professor AUbuit.) To an incapacitating 
 degree? — ^Yes, at a certain age. 
 
 8523. (Chairman.) What age? — After the fifties. 
 
 8524. It is not in any sense a deadly dust, like the 
 dust of silica or steel, is it? — 1 believe it is equally 
 fatal in the end, but it takes longer to produce the 
 results. 
 
 8525. How long?— As I say, I believe the in- 
 capacity begins after fifty, anu between 55 and 65 it 
 is marked, and the mortality as well. 
 
 8526. That is as to men who have been employed in 
 the mines for a long period, is it? — Yes. Of course, 
 you have always to take this into consideration with 
 miners : it is very arduous work, and when their 
 powers begin to fail, they quit that work aixd find 
 something easier. In our own district, for instance, 
 it is extremely common for them to come out of the 
 pit, take a small shop, or a horse and cart, or get 
 work as labourers at the pot works, attending the 
 machinery, and in the small villages they look out for 
 small holdings, so that these men are withdrawn from 
 the mortality returns when they die of chest com- 
 plaints, and are not entered as miners. 
 
 8527. Do you think a change of occupation is bene- 
 ficial to their health ?— Most certainly, as they are re- 
 moved from the dust. 
 
 8528. And they might go on for years, or may even 
 die of old age, might they ?— Occasionally they might, 
 if they come out early enough. With regard to 
 potters, they remain on up to the last in their trade 
 in which they began, but with miners the work is so 
 
 2 K 2 
 
260 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. A. B, strenuous that when once their powers begin to fail 
 Moody, M.B. they must come out. 
 
 4 Mar 1907 8529. Do you consider that this disease ought to be 
 ' ' scheduled ? — I do. 
 
 8530. If it were scheduled, how could you determine 
 at what moment a man was incapacitated from follow- 
 ing his employment? — I would be quite content my- 
 self if it were included, with the condition that not 
 until 50 should a man be eligible. It seems that after 
 that age the effects of the inhalation begin to be most 
 markedly shown. I think, seeing the enormous 
 number of miners that suffer from respiratory diseases, 
 they will suffer an injustice if it is not included with 
 some limitation. I should like to say that my im- 
 pression is strongly this, that, contrary to potters' so- 
 called phthisis, which is a diminishing quantity, with 
 regard to miners it is far otherwise, and it is an in- 
 creasing quantity, for which reasons can be given. I 
 see no prospect, without it is included, of getting the 
 conditions ameliorated. There is no doubt that after 
 the passing of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, im- 
 provement took place up to a certain point ; but 
 beyond that it has stopped, and there are reasons why 
 the miner works now under less advantageous condi- 
 tions than he did some years ago. 
 
 8531. What are the reasons ? — In the first place, 20 or 
 25 years ago, miners were recruited mostly from the 
 agricultural classes ; now, to a large extent, they are 
 recruited from town-dwellers, whose resistance to 
 disease is not so great. In the next place, the small 
 mines have been eliminated ; they are becoming very 
 extensive ; their workings extend to tremendous 
 distances of superficial area and depth. The difficulties 
 in the way of ventilation are, of course, largely in- 
 creased, and the mines, many of them have got ex- 
 tremely dry and dusty. Those are the things which 
 I think, in the main, are responsible for the in- 
 creasing number of miners who suffer disability and 
 disease, and, eventually, death from respiratory 
 troubles. 
 
 8532. If this disease were scheduled, do you think 
 employers would have a medical examination of their 
 workers, and any they found likely to suffer from 
 phthisis would be dismissed, to avoid the payment of 
 compensation, which might involve the payment of 
 half wages for a period of 10 or 20 years ? — I do not 
 think they would dismiss them. Of course, that is 
 a thing I should not like to express an opinion exactly 
 upon. I do not think the miners themselves would 
 allow grave injustice to be done. 
 
 8533. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You said that it was an 
 injustice that men over 50 who had this disease should 
 not be compensated, did you ? — I think it would be un- 
 just. 
 
 8534. Why would it not be equally unjust to men 
 at 30 ? — Because the effects of the inhalation are not 
 shown until they reach 50, or over. 
 
 8535. But surely some men get fibroid phthisis at 
 30 years of age ? — Most decidedly. 
 
 8536. Then ought not they, in justice, to get com- 
 pensation? — -Yes, but the cases are very rare. 
 
 8537. According to your scheme, by limiting it to 
 men over 50, you would cut out anybody under that 
 age, would you not ? — I would, because I think it 
 would be so difiicult to get it included for all ages, 
 and so diificult in the earlier stages to differentiate 
 from other diseases. 
 
 8538. Then do not you think it is likely every 
 employer would request every man to discontinue 
 work at 50 without any medical examination at all ? — 
 Yes, he might. 
 
 8539. Then I am afraid your scheme would deprive 
 ■ everyone up to 30, and according to' your view every- 
 one over 50, of any advantage, eo that there would not 
 be very much left if it were axJopted, would there ? — 
 There would not, under the conditions suggested. 
 
 8540. Have you any statistics showing phthisis in 
 miners? — No, I have no statistics. 
 
 8541. Are you aware that, generally speaking, the 
 miner's trade is one of the most healthy in the 
 country ? — Yes, they are aji exceptionally strong lot 
 of men, and exceptionally temperate. 
 
 8642. Have you any ground for thinking phthisis 
 is more prevalent amongst them than in other trades ? 
 — Phthisis is less, but respiratory diseases ai-e greater. 
 
 6543. Would you call asthma a respiratory- d'isease ?— 
 Yea. 
 
 8544. And bronchitis? — Yes. Do you speak of 
 tuberculosis when you say phthisis? 
 
 8545. Yes, I mean what is called consumption, whicit' 
 arises from tubercle bacilli, and not from dust. Am I. 
 right in so understanding? — Yes. 
 
 8546. But it is different from asthma and bron- 
 chitis ?— Phthisis means tulberculous consumption. 
 
 854'7. A little more than that, I think, does it not ?■ 
 It would be equally phthisis if got from dust, before- 
 tubercle supervened, would it not? — I would not calL 
 it that. I should call it anthracosis in the 'case of 
 the miner, and silicosis in the case of the potter. 
 
 8548. The statistics do not seem to show that the- 
 miner is any more unhealthy, even from phthisis, or- 
 silicosis, or any other thing than the remainder oF 
 the population? — The only figures we can go by are- 
 the Registrar-General's returns, which show the exact 
 opposite. 
 
 8549. Have you those returns with you ? — Yes, I 
 have. I have the supplement to the 55th Annual 
 Report of the Registrar-General, for the year 1897; 
 Taking the agriculturalist .as the standard with regardF. 
 to diseases of the respiratory system, the figures are 115.. 
 
 8550. 115 deaths per 1,000'? — It is a comparative- 
 figure. 
 
 8551. Taking the agriculturalist at 115, what is the- 
 figure for the coal miner? — 269. Then, taking; 
 occupied males at 100, the diseases of the respiratory 
 system in the mining industry generally is 121. . 
 
 8552. According to your own view, it would not be- 
 fair, would it, to compare the miner with the agricul- 
 turalist, because, as you have explained to us, they 
 are now recruited from a different population, an<E 
 therefore the ratio' of 100 to 121, I suppose, would. 
 more correctly represent the real ratio ?— r-Yes, that is so^ 
 
 8553. You would not put it higher than that.*" — ^Nc 
 
 8554. (Professor Allbutt.) In my experience of 
 practice in a mining district in the West Riding; 
 of Yorkshire, we used very commtonly, indeed, usually,- 
 in the bodies of miners to discover the lungs; 
 very thickly charged with a carbonaceous deposit, so 
 that they were very deeply pigmented and black, but. 
 this of itself did not signify any pulmonary 
 disease. I am not contradicting what you have- 
 stated, but it need not necessarily set up disease,, 
 need it? — I think eventually it does. 
 
 8555. But still, every coal miner has an enormou* 
 quantity of it in his lungs, whatever age he may be? — 
 That is so. Of course, one always has to bear in mind^ 
 that coal is not pure carbon. 
 
 8556. But a person may have lungs as black as a. 
 hat, and yet not necessarily suffer from disease of the 
 lungP — Yes. A Londoner's lungs are black. 
 
 8557. Therefore may not one assume that the car- 
 bonaceous deposit is comparatively harmless? — One- 
 might think so. 
 
 8558. Have you, or have you not, any large oppor- 
 tunities for post-mortem examination in these cases ? — 
 1 have seen a good many. 
 
 8559. Can you tell the Committee shortly what yow. 
 have discovered in an autopsy of a case of chronic- 
 pulmonary disease which you have attributed to coal' 
 dust ? — My examinations have not been made with the- 
 direct object of finding the condition of the man's- 
 lungs, but mostly for other purposes. The conditions 
 were that the man's lungs were extremely black, and 
 fibrous tissus had invaded and taken the place of 
 Ithe lung tissue in certain parts ; in some cases (one or 
 two, at any rate) small cavities had been formed whichr 
 at any rate, did not have the appearance of ordinary- 
 cavities coming on in tubercular phthisis. 
 
 8560. Cavities formed by dilated tubes, I suppose? — 
 Yes, and there were emphysematous paltches, and 
 affection of the pleura in places. 
 
 8561. That being the case, and that there is a 
 certain amount of fibrosis set up by the presence of 
 dust, but that there is, generally speaking, no dilata- 
 tion of the bronchial tubes, would you be of opinion 
 that a man would thereby "be incapacitated ?— No, I 
 do not think Ke would be at that time. 
 
 8562. It is a question of degree, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 8563. And only in a very few extreme cases a man 
 would be incapacitated by such pulmonary disease. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 261 
 
 Let us assume that a man with a carbonaceous lung 
 could not be called healthy ; and we might gp further, 
 and eay that in a considerable number on microsoopical 
 examination the lung would (be found to have de- 
 teriorated somewhat ; yet the numher of cases in which 
 the injury goes on beyond that, leading to dilatation 
 of the bronchi aild probably to incapacitation, would 
 be very few, from your experience ? — In my experience 
 those conditions result eventually in a large number of 
 cases. 
 
 8564. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You say, do you, that 
 the dust of the mines is rather deleterious to the 
 men ? — Yes, in all coal mines. 
 
 8565. If that is so, _ how about phthisis, which 
 would be, I suppose, a disease from dust, is it not ? — 
 No, it is got from germs; the dust would only pave 
 the way for the germs. 
 
 8566. Coal miners are remarkably free from phthisis, 
 are they not ? — That is so. They are exceptionally 
 strong men. 
 
 8567. No, you said they were drawn from the 
 ordinary town population P — I did not say they were 
 the ordinary town population. I said they were 
 recruited from town dwellers, but still they are excep- 
 tionally strong men. 
 
 8568. If that is so, why do they not resist the 
 diseases of the respiratory organs as effectually as they 
 seem to resist the phthisis ? Why do not they show 
 their strength all round? — For the reason that they 
 are exposed to dust far more than the ordinary popu- 
 lation, and not in excess of the ordinary population 
 exposed to germs. 
 
 8569. You admit, do you not, that phthisis is 
 caused by dust ? — No. 
 
 8570. Then when you come to tin miners, who are 
 also exposed to dust, how do you account for the 
 figure of 275 as against the 100? — Because there you 
 get poisoning in addition. 
 
 8571. Do' you mean that it is really tin poisoning, 
 as well ? — ^No, but their capacity is sO' undei-mined by 
 the poisoning from the tin and arsenic, as well as by 
 the dust they inhale, and foul air. 
 
 6572. In considering the eiiects of dust on any 
 mining industry, would it not be fair to add together 
 the phthisis and the ordinary respiratory diseases? — 
 No, I think it is fairer to separate them. 
 
 8373. Then, according to you, the tin miners' figure 
 of 275 for phthisis is not due tO' dust at all ? — Yes, I 
 think dust injures the lung, and deteriorates its 
 resistive power to the tubercle. 
 
 8574. Do not you think the figures showing the 
 remarkable freedom of coal miners from phthisis, and 
 the remarkable liability of tin miners to phthisis, 
 illustratos the fact that the dust of coal mines is not 
 dangerous? — I do not. The dust of tin mines is no 
 doubt dangerous and irritating, but it is alsO' poisonous. 
 
 8575. (Professor AllbuU.) Is it not true that among 
 tin miners who go from Cornwall to South Africa, 
 phthisis is far more frequent than in those who 
 remain at home ? — I believe the conditions under which 
 they work in South Africa, of exposure to almost pure 
 silica dust, are very severe. 
 
 8576. (Chairman.) Under the head of phthisis in 
 this table, would not fibroid phthisis be included ?— I 
 think it is included ; it should not be. 
 
 8577. Is not that a disease due to dust ? — Yes. 
 
 8578. If fibroid phthisis is a disease prevalent largely 
 among miners, how is it that out of all the phthisis 
 
 put together you have the ooal miner showing a num- Mr. A. R. 
 ber of 59, as compared with occupied males of 100 2— Moody, ' m.'b 
 
 I really cannot say whsther phthisis includes fibroid 
 
 phthisis, but the terms are so mixed up with regard * ^ar. 1907. 
 
 to phthisis that I have excluded phthisis and dealt 
 
 with respiratory diseases. Of oourss, anthracosis and 
 silicosis and ganister disease are not phthisis. 
 
 8579. I see that in a table in which 20 different 
 occupations are given the mortality figure starts with 
 agriculturists 221 from phthisis and diseases of the 
 respiratory system together, and the ironstone miner 
 is the next lowest, then the carpenter, then the coal- 
 miner, the -figure going up to 366, and that of the other 
 occupations, including chimney sweep, zinc worker, 
 and gunsmith, are very much higher than that of the 
 coal miner, going up to 1,001 in the case of the 
 potter and earthenware manufacturer. Does not that 
 tend to show the coal miner, the carpenter, and agri- 
 culturist are freer from phthisis and diseases of the 
 respiratory organs than those engaged in other occupa- 
 tions? — They ars freer, but they suffer very consider- 
 ably as compared with occupied males. 
 
 8580. (Br. Legge.) Do you agree that fibroid 
 phthisis damages the lung, and makes it become a 
 more suitable soil for the tubercle bacillus to develop 
 in when it gets there ? — Yes ; for any germ invading 
 the lungs. 
 
 8581. And in all these industries where there is 
 fibroid phthisis, the damaged lung has formed 
 a more suitable soil, and the phthisis figures 
 are in excess ? — ^If phthisis is added to the fibroid con- 
 dition. 
 
 8582. If that is so in the case of the tin miner and 
 the potter, does not that tend to show that the lungs 
 of the coal miner do not get fibrotic, and are not 
 damaged so as to form a suitable soil for tubercle 
 bacillus? — They are not working under the same con- 
 ditions. 
 
 8583. A tin worker is working in tin ore? — Which 
 is metalliferous. 
 
 8584. No ; it is silicious, that is all. You are in 
 a pottery district, are you not ? — Yes. 
 
 8585. Do you come across potters' phthisis — fibroid 
 phthisis which appears in potters ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8586. Have you ssen a post-mortem case ? — Yes. 
 8687. Are the conditions different there from those 
 
 in the coal miner ? — Yes ; they are more accentuated 
 and exaggerated, and come on earlier. 
 
 8588. You said, I think, that coal miners when they 
 found they could not continue heavy work went into 
 the pot banks ? — They do not go into the works, but 
 act as odd labourers, round the ovens, and so on. 
 
 8589. Do not they get employment as biscuit placers ? 
 — Yes. I have known them do that ; but that is before 
 their powers fail. 
 
 8590. As biscuit placers, do not they get exposed to 
 silicious dust ? — ^They do ; but the pitman who does- 
 that work must be a strong, vigorous man. 
 
 5891. But it takes time for a silicious dust to act, 
 I suppose ? — ^Yes. I should like to correct my answer 
 as to biscuit placers. I do not think a failing collier 
 could take that work up as a resource, because it 
 would be beyond his working powers. 
 
 8592. Granister is the next seam to the coal, is it 
 not?— Yes. 
 
 8593. If you get ganister you must be near coal?^ 
 Quite so. 
 
262 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 TWENTY-EIGHTH DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, Uh March, 1907. 
 
 MEMBEHS PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hekbeet Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 
 Mr. HeNHY CrXTNGHAME, C.B. 
 
 Professor Cmefokd Allbutt, e.e.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Frank Elliott {Secretary). 
 
 Mr. Frederick Howard Brooke, called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. F. H. 
 
 Brool'e. 
 
 i Mar. 1907, 
 
 8594. (Chairman.) Are you engaged in the ganister 
 industry ? — Yes. 
 
 8595. Will you tell me about how ma/ny men you 
 smploy? — I employ 160 miners and 220 workmen in 
 the brickworks and glanister grinding works. That 
 business covers many other things such as fireclay and 
 work in stone quarries. 
 
 8596. In reference to miners, are these men engaged, 
 as a rule, throughout their lives in ganister mines ? — 
 No ; as boys they are mostly engaged in other indus- 
 tries. 
 
 8597. At what age do they come to the ganister 
 mine ? — There are a few hoys of the ages of from about 
 12 to 13 engaged as pony drivers; then you come to 
 boys of from 15 to 16 up to 21 years of age engaged as 
 trimmers. 
 
 8598. Do they then become miners ? — They become 
 miners. 
 
 6599. Do they, as a rule, stay in the ganister mines 
 once they have entered them, or do they go to other 
 mines ? — A good workman will stop in a imine ; that is 
 to say, a steady married man, but the young men go 
 from one mine to another. 
 
 8600. Do the same men also work in coal mines? — ■ 
 We recruit our colliers mostly irom the coal mines. 
 There are a lot of coal mines round our works. 
 
 8601. Therefore may a man spend some years of his 
 life in a coal mine, and then go to a ganister mine, 
 «,nd vice versa ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8602. Do you consider that any of your miners suffer 
 from any form of lung disease which is directly attri- 
 butable to their employment ? — I think they are apt, 
 if they do not look after themselves and work in a 
 systema/tic manner, to get either coal dust or ganister 
 dust. 
 
 8603. What do you mean by working in a systematic 
 manner ? — There are certain regulations — for instance, 
 after shot-firing they are not supposed to go into the 
 part where the shot was fired for about 20 minutes, 
 until the dust is settled ; but if they go in immediately 
 afterwards they are more liable to get the dust. 
 
 8604. Do you think that if a man were to strictly 
 -observe that and similar rules he would be very little 
 liable to get dust in his lungs ?— As regards ganister 
 •dust, I think there is very little probability of his 
 getting any at all now, because the drilling is done 
 wet, and the only danger is after the blasting and the 
 dust in the air floating about in coming out of the 
 pit. He is liable to get that more from coal than 
 ganister, because there would be six times as much 
 dust from coal than from ganister. 
 
 8605. Do you think that coal dust is a lung irritant 
 ro the same degree as ganister dust? — That is for the 
 doctors to say, but I think so. My mine manager says 
 he fears the coal more than the ganister dust at the 
 present time. 
 
 8606. Do you think from your experience that 
 phthisis contracted through the work can be distin- 
 ■guished from other forms of phthisis prevalent in the 
 rest of the population ? — That, again, is foy'the doctors 
 to say ; but the point is, what you are going to describe 
 the disease if you include it in the third schedule. 
 The miners oome to us from other coal mines already 
 diseased, or a great many of them, We say, as in- 
 
 stanced by the men who have died after only a short 
 employment with us. These men have coal dust and 
 silicious dust on their lungs, and the point is in the 
 case of dust, whether you can distinguish between dust 
 and ordinary phthisis ; and there is also the point, 
 whether you can distinguish the dust accumulating in 
 coal mines from the dust accumulating in our mines. 
 I do not think personally the doctors can tell tho 
 difference, because I think there is no difference in the 
 working ; the same cause creates the same result. 
 
 8607. Do you make a strong point of the difficulty 
 of differentiating between phthisis caused by coal dust 
 and phthisis caused by ganister dust ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8608. But if both were included in the Schedule, 
 that difficulty would disappear? — ^Yes. 
 
 8609. Would you have any objection to both being 
 included ? — If it is called miners' phthisis '^ have no 
 objection. 
 
 8610. Do you think it would be an unjust thing if 
 employers were required to insure their men and com- 
 pensate them if it could be clearly shown, they suffered 
 serious lung disease duo to their employment ? — Not if 
 the doctors can be absolutely certaiiL that they can dis- 
 tinguish between phthisis and dust injury either aris- 
 ing from coal or ganister. 
 
 8611. If that discrimination is possible and certain, 
 then you think, do you, it is not unfair that they 
 should be compensated ? — I think if a man dies from 
 phthisis arising from his industry his relatives are 
 certainly entitled to compensation, just the sajne as 
 if you kill a man in his work they are entitled to com- 
 pensation. 
 
 8612. In your industry are there many employers of 
 labour ? — There are a lot. In our district the materials 
 we make the bricks from is known as ganister. In 
 South Wales it goes by another name, ajid in other 
 places it goes by the name of silica. 
 
 8613. What is it called in South Wales ?— It is called 
 dinas rock. 
 
 8614. Are the employers in your trade accustomed to 
 insure their men against accident now, as a rule? — 
 Yes. We are insured, and the number of acoidenta 
 has largely increased since the last Act came into force. 
 I may say that we pay now in insurance about three 
 times the amount we did at the start. 
 
 8615. That is a common experience as the Act hag 
 become more known, is it not ? — Or as malingering 
 has become more prevalent. I have had one or two 
 cases in which as soon as the insurance company has 
 paid the man for nearly twelve months, or as soon as 
 the insurance company has paid the man a settled 
 §um down, the man wanted to be re-employed by me 
 the very next week. They were quite well as soon as 
 they got the compensation money. Those were two 
 cases said to be of spinal injury. 
 
 8616. Are there any particular instances of cases of 
 persons suffering from ganister disease, to which you 
 wish to draw the attention of the Committee ?^Yes ; 
 there is the case of a man named . My mine 
 
 manager told me on the 7th February that 
 had died. I asked what he had died of, and 
 the mine manager said he was supposed to have died 
 of ganister dust, but he had only worked for us a very 
 short time — three months — as a trimmer, and not as a 
 ganister cutter,, and for eleven month*, after an intoi- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 263 
 
 val, working in the coal mines as" a coal-cutter, not as 
 a ganister miner. The part of the mine where he 
 worked coal only was separately ventilated, and there- 
 fore he could not possibly have got any ganister dust 
 from the other ganister worfciniga. He worked for a total 
 altogether of ojje year land tihree months. Then where 
 did that man get 'his disease from if he died of igiamister 
 dust on the lungs ? I have the death certificate, which 
 I can show you. My manager went and interviewed 
 the man's mother, and she said the doctor had told 
 her that his lungs were completely choked up with 
 ganister. 
 
 8617. The point which you wish to impress upon us 
 being that it is very easy to make a mistake in 
 diagnosis ? — Very. 
 
 9618. (Professor Allhutt.) There was no^ post-mortem 
 examination, I suppose? — No. I wrote to Mr. 
 Walker, the Inspector of Mines, and he told me he 
 thought I had better communicate with the Coroner ; 
 but the parents objected, and as I only got his reply 
 on the day of the funeral I did not like to interfere. 
 
 8619. The off-hand statement that the lungs were 
 choked with dust was an inference then, at any rate. 
 No one saw the lungs? — No. It shows what a bad 
 name the ganister trade has got, though the damage 
 is caused, not so much by us, as coal-mining, pro- 
 bably. 
 
 8620. (Chairman.) To what age, do your men work, 
 as a rule, in the mines ? — I had one die two years ago 
 69 years of age. He worked with us as a boy in our 
 clay and coal mines, in which there is ganister as well, 
 at Huddersfield. He came to us at Oughtibridge, 
 where we started our works in 1860. 
 
 8621. Was he a miner? — He was a miner at his 
 death and up to the time of his sickness. 
 
 8622. As a rule, to what age do they usually work 
 in the ganister mines ? — It is difficult to say ; varying 
 ages. I have men in my employ of 50 and 60 years 
 of age now. 
 
 8623. Do you think they work as long in the ganister 
 mines as they do in the coal mines ? — I think a steady 
 man does. 
 
 8624. If you had all your ganister miners ranged in 
 a row and your coal miners ranged in a row, would 
 you mark any disparity of age between them? — I do 
 not think so. 
 
 8625. With regard to the grinders, do you find 
 phthisis specially prevalent amongst them ? — No. 
 
 8626. Have you a system of exhaust ventilation? — ■ 
 The grinding is done away from the mine. We have 
 steam jets on the stone-breakers. 
 
 8627. Will you explain the process? When the 
 ganister is taken from the mine to the works what 
 happens ? — The ganister comes in small trucks to tlie 
 works, and is put through stone-breakers, which break 
 the stone down to a certain size. There is a certain 
 amount of dust which used to rise some ten years ago 
 in that process, but since the steam jets, or water 
 spray, or even a fan, have been introduced, it has been 
 kept down, so that it blows the dust that would arise 
 down through the breaker, and it drops into a hopper. 
 These hoppers are boarded up to keep the dust con- 
 fined as it blows down ; and it also gets damped from 
 the steain as well. The material is then run from 
 there into solid-bottomed mills — big revolving mills of 
 10 ft. in diameter. Lime water is run in at the same 
 time, and then it is ground. It is then taken from 
 there and made up by hand brick machines. For- 
 merly, when we had several cases of men dying in the 
 works to contend with, it was largely caused by sand- 
 ing the bricks in the process of making — we used to 
 sand them with the dry ganister itself : but, during 
 the last five or six years, we have used sawdust 
 instead. 
 
 8628. Is the effect of that, that you no longer get 
 cases of phthisis amongst workmen ? — We have not had 
 any for a long time. 
 
 8629. No cases of any form of phthisis? — We have 
 one or two men we have kept on who were brick- 
 makers or breaker men, who got a certain amount of 
 dust under the old system, and these men were ill ; 
 but they are working in the open air, and we find 
 them labouring work about the yard. I have one 
 man — I think the very man Dr. McLaren mentioned 
 in his evidence at Sheffield — who put six days a week 
 in, and he has been working for ten years with the 
 ganister on his lungs. He is a steady fellow, and, I 
 
 think, could work another ten years, but if he is put 
 
 on the schedule he will retire. 
 8630. And claim to be incapacitated ?— Yes. 
 
 Mr. F. H. 
 
 And 
 
 not only that, but he will die sooner than if he con- ° 
 tmues his wo'i-k. I beiMeve the iwork helps ito work the 
 dust away. 
 
 8631. So long as he is not working in the dust, of 
 course?— So long as he is not working in the dust. 
 Those men woi'k outside. I ihave two men whto 
 would immediajtely oome on for ooanpensation, and 
 whom I icouid pass m^yBelf, withtout la doobor's aid, 
 as having got dust, but it was under the old conditions 
 they got it, not the present conditions. I know of no 
 conditions at present where there is any danger. 
 
 8632. In all the works in the trade are the same 
 precautions taken? — Yes. 
 
 8633. Have you any statistics you would like to pre- 
 sent-to the Committee with reference to the death-rate 
 from phthisis in the ganister trade and in other 
 trades ? — I have other men mentioned in my list. 
 
 There are ' — , -. ', • — , and , all 
 
 of whom worked .a, very short period in the mines, 
 and I think all of them came from the coal mines. 
 Suppose one of these men died and the death was 
 certified as pneumonia — tuberculosis — and suppose he 
 had only worked a few months with us, if we are put 
 in the third schedule, could not the relatives, after 
 that man's death, say, " He has some dust on his lungs 
 from working on your place ; we want compensation." 
 
 8634. It is a question of fact, of course, whether he 
 died through that disease? — But they would say his 
 death had been accelerated through the work, as far 
 as I can see. 
 
 8635. Do you think if the dust is merely a cause con- 
 tributory in a minor degree it ought to be made cer- 
 tain no compensation should be claimed? — ^I do not 
 know ; that is a point of law. I am afraid I shall be 
 held liable for all chest diseases of men who have 
 worked in my works. 
 
 8636. And your point is, is it, that you do not think 
 it just compensation should be paid unless it was clear 
 dust was the main cause of the disease? — Just so. 
 The point is, could a relative say, " You have ac- 
 celerated the death ; that man has died a few monthft 
 sooner than he would have done, and therefore you 
 have to compensate us." 
 
 8637. That depends, of course, on the form which 
 the order takes. You have some figures in your proof, 
 have you not, as to the death rate from phthisis in the- 
 Bradfield district? — I think I will leave that to Dr. 
 Kite, who will deal with it. 
 
 8638. (Professor Allbutt.) You said that there have 
 been mor© accidents since the Act oame into force, 
 fou mean more have been recorded. The men do not 
 court accident, of course, do they ? — ^No. I meant more 
 complaints. 
 
 8639. Referring to the spinal cases you mentioned, 
 which are very obscure and difficult, I remember very 
 well indeed, when railway accidents were first brought 
 into court. There was enormous difficulty inl deciding: 
 as to the nature of that kind of aooident, and I daresay 
 you remdmlber, too, that in those days it was almost 
 pell-'mell business with regard to compensation, ajid 
 medical mjen wenit into court often with very imperfect 
 agreement both as to facts land inferences. It is quite 
 possible, in the case of any new Act coming into force, 
 there may be such difficulties at first, land that medical 
 men will nlot hiave quite settled down to definite 
 opinions ; but the Oolmmittee have heard a, good 
 deal of evidence to suggest that medical men 
 can already, and still bettor as they 'become specially 
 expert, distinguish between the form of chronic pul- 
 monary disease due to the inhalation of dust and 
 such a case of primary tuberculous oonsuimption as 
 you mentioned just now? — The further point is: can 
 a medical man, if you are going to put ganister dust 
 on the list and not miners' phthisis, tell the difference 
 between a ganister worker and a worker in the coal- 
 mines round Barnsley? You see, I get men coming 
 to me from the coalmines who are already diseased. 
 
 8640. Let us assume that any irritating dust will 
 produce a particular kind of pulmonary disease 1 — You 
 see my difficulty is, if I have to pay for other people's 
 diseases, I shall not want to take any miners who have 
 any dust on their lungs at all, and the result is that 
 I shall not have any men. My works will be closed 
 down. 
 
264 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. F. H. 
 Brooke. 
 
 Mar. 1907. 
 
 8641. Do you really think that ganister miners are 
 suffering from the obloquy of the coalmines ? Do you 
 think the, coalmines the worst of the two? — My mine 
 manager says they are. 
 
 8642. Do you .find any prejudice against ganister 
 mining ? Do the men come readily to you ? — No ; we 
 cannot get them readily. I could employ twenty more 
 to-day. 
 
 8643. On, account of dust? — No, because it is harder 
 work. 
 
 8644. You have never heard any 'prejudice against it 
 on account of danger to the lungs ? — No. 
 
 8645. Ther come from the coalmines readily to you, 
 in so far as health is concerned, do they? — Yes. Ilhe 
 great difficulty with the men is the rock which has to 
 be filled up in big lumps of 10 cwt. each, and it is 
 harder work. 
 
 8646. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do I gather that there are 
 three difficulties which you raise ? In the first place, 
 you say that coalminers come to you already suffering 
 from phthisis I — I can only conclude so ; I do not know. 
 
 8647. If you say from returns that the phthisis of 
 coalminers is fai less than the phthisis in any other 
 occupation in the country it would prove, would it not, 
 that the coalminers would be the very safest men to 
 take instead of the most dangerous ?— We will take 
 the coalfields around Barnsley, which are adjacent to 
 our mines. The death rates around Barnsley that I 
 have had given me are all over 1 per cent. 
 
 8648. Would yoa challenge that assertion of mine, 
 then, that phthisis is less common among coalminers 
 than among other classes of the population? — In com- 
 paring the Barnsley district with our district, the 
 Barnsley .district is just double, but Dr. Kite will go 
 into that with you gentlemen. I got from the medical 
 officers of health around Barnsley, Monk Bretton, 
 Wombwell, and those districts, their figures. 
 
 8649. If you take a coalminer in this return, and 
 take the diseases of respiratory organs, the coalminer 
 stands not so high as many of the others, but when 
 you come to take phthisis do you see the remarkably 
 low figure there is, and that is the fact in every dis- 
 trict all over England. In fact, the Registrar Greneral 
 remarks that phthisis is a remarkable infrequent 
 disease .amongst miners ? — I will take it from you. 
 
 8650. If that was so, it would prove you were under 
 an immense advantage in recruiting from miners in- 
 stead of a disadvantage, and that you were gaining 
 by it, would it not? — That is so ; but I have these 
 cases all round me. Dr. Bobertshaw stated it took 
 15 to 25 years to accumulate ganister dust on the lungs, 
 and I agree with him in the case of a steady work- 
 man. But here you have cases where they have worked 
 only a very short time for us. 
 
 8651. Taking a man who has previously worked in, 
 -coalmines, and has only worked in ganister mines for 
 a short period, because a doctor says it must take 25 
 years to develop ganister dust, are we to conclude ha 
 must have caught it somewhere else, in spite of these 
 statistics of fte Registrar General. Does not the 
 doctor's statement require checking? — But how could 
 a man^et ganister dust ? The whole of this inquiry 
 is ba?:?.d on Dr. Robertshaw's evidence. 
 
 8652.-Not at all. It is based partly on the Regis- 
 trar General's returns. You get remarkable freedom 
 from phthisis among coalminers, and you get a con- 
 siderable quantity among ganister miners, and you 
 say ganister miners are recruited from coalmines, I 
 understand? — They are. 
 
 8653. Then the point is difficult to meet, is it not ? — 
 It requires looking into. I think the fact of these men 
 -working such a short time for us, and having diod, 
 shows they must have caught the disease elsewhere. 
 
 8654. Or else your industry must be very dangerous, 
 which is the other conclusion? — Yes. On the other 
 hand, we have men who have been working for us for 
 over 4D years. 
 
 8655.- The doctors say they can distinguish, given 
 sufficient knowledge of the life history of the whole 
 case, and a right to ask every possible question, 
 phthisis from dust and phthisis from other causes. It 
 is said there would be a temptation for men who are 
 already affected, whether from coal or some other occu- 
 pation, to become ganister miners in order to get a pro- 
 vision for their old age. ,So far, that, appears a valid, 
 arguhieht, but would not that be met on your part by ■ 
 
 causing them to bo inspected before taking them nn. 
 f ou would have to know their history, would you not ? 
 Yes, and if we dare not take a man from a coal- 
 mine if we are put on the schedule, where are we going 
 to recruit our men from ? 
 
 8656. I am not sure you dare not?— But our past 
 experience is better than anything else. 
 
 8657. Have you had men from other places than coal- 
 mines ? — No. 
 
 8658. Then how can you compare? — ^We have to 
 take miners. 
 
 8659. (Professor Allbutt.) But those tables are 
 prepared from experience, surely? — We must take 
 the men from other mines, and yet we dare not if we 
 are put in the third schedule. 
 
 8660. (Chairman.) Should you expect coalminers 
 would be more subject to phthisis than agriculturists? 
 — Certainly. 
 
 8661. These figures show that while the mortality 
 figure of agricultrists is 106, that of coalminers is only 
 97, and ironstone miners 90, while it runs up in the 
 case of potters to 333, in cutlers to 332, and in tin 
 miners to 508, so the coalminer stands at the bottom, 
 of the scale, you see ? — There may be some disease in 
 working different kinds of coal depending on the dis- 
 trict. 
 
 8662. (Professor AUhutt.) Does coal working in your 
 neighbourhood involve working 'ganister as well ? — ^Yes, 
 it is an under clay. 
 
 8663. In the coalmines ? — Yes. 
 
 8664. So that a man; is both coalminer and ganister 
 miner as well, is he? — Yes. In all coalmines you have 
 rippers and packers, and those men are subject to 
 dust all along from silicious rock — the under rock, 
 which is ganister. 
 
 8665. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Then is it your point that 
 if we examine the statistics for phthisis among coal- 
 miners in your district we shall find them much bigger 
 than in other districts in England. Will you rest your 
 argument on that, because you are in this position, 
 that you have to admit that all over England phthisis 
 is small among miners, but now you say, " Yes, but 
 very likely it is very big in my district ?" — I say it is 
 not big in my district. I say it is not as big as in the 
 Barnsley district. 
 
 8666. Among coalminers ? — ^Among my miners ; 
 among the whole population in our district it is not as 
 big as among the whole population in the Barnsley dis- 
 trict. 
 
 8667. Then there is all the greater argument for 
 thinking that ganister does it? — No; that ganister 
 does not do it. The death-rate from, phthisis amongst 
 the whole population of our district is. 47 per thousand ; 
 in the Barnsley district it is over 1. Out of a popula- 
 tion of 8,600 there are 900 ganister workers in that 
 district, and the rate is only .47 per thousand. 
 
 8668. But the difficulty is, you ought to prove that 
 there is an abnormal phthisis mortality among the 
 men from whom you recruit. That is your argument, 
 is it not ? — ^That is what I say, from these particulars 
 which we have ; the men have the disease before com- 
 ing to us. 
 
 8669. You must admit that ganister mining in old 
 days was a very dangerous occupation, must you not? 
 —-In the old days it was. 
 
 8670. And that, consequently, there are a large num- 
 ber of men who have the disease in them as the result 
 of working in the old days? — There are a certain 
 number. 
 
 8671. In future, do you think there will be very little 
 of the disease amongst them ? — ^I think so. 
 
 8672. Then the Act will not do you very much harm, 
 will it? — ^Yes, it wUl, because we shall be entirely in 
 the hands of the doctors and the workmen. 
 
 8673. So will the men be in the hands of the doctors, 
 will they not? — (But our business will be practically 
 managed by the doctors and the workmen. Taking the 
 first symptoms, there is only ansemia and shortness of 
 breath going up hill, but I should like the doctor to 
 talk about that. I would rather leave th^ death-rates 
 and the medical part of the subjeot to Dr. Kite, he- 
 cause I have not gone into it myself. I want to tell 
 you the truth, and our opinion is that we get men 
 from the coal mines who are diseased. Whether it ^s 
 that w© gst the rolling stones — ^the young men' or not 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 265 
 
 I do not know— but the steady married men are good, 
 their health is good, and they stay at home, and do 
 mot go away, but we evidently get the riff-rafi of the 
 miners. I can only put it down to that. Th«se men 
 liave never got ganister dust in our mines. 
 
 8674. Still, it is difficult to resist the conclusion that 
 •some prima facie case has been made for putting it 
 into die schedule, is it not? — ^Thers is no doubt that 
 in the past there has been more of this disease than 
 "there ought to have been. I blame the doctors to a very 
 •great extent, in this way : A'bout 90 per cent, of the 
 doctors in the district said it was dynamite fumes that 
 Tdlled the men. We took means to prevent them going 
 into the hole untU the dynamite fumes wera got out, 
 and no one ever thought of ganister dust, and the 
 result was these cases were all accumulating, until, I 
 "think, in 1895 to 1896, tha dteath-rate was enormous ; 
 iut ever since then the deiaths have been coming down 
 gradually. Not only that, Ibut Lowood's and ourselves 
 -were the pioneers of the industry. It is only a new 
 industry, thirty years old. We were the pioneers, 
 we were ignorant, and did not know how to 
 ■protect the workmen from dust. We did our best, but 
 still the men started to die ofi, before ever we knew 
 the diseas3 was on us. As soon as means have been 
 ■taken to counteract the disease the death-rate is gradu- 
 ally going down, and it will disappear if you will only 
 ■give it time. There is no dou:bt that dust can be 
 ^prevented, and is being prevented almost entirely now, 
 ■and if the factory inspector and the mines inspector 
 would co-opsrate with the employer and the workmen, 
 jnd meet and thrash the thing out with regard to what 
 ■means of prevention can be taken, you will never hear 
 •of ganister dust. 
 
 8675. What district is yours ? — Br.adfield. 
 
 8676. Which county would it be under ? — It is in the 
 West Ri-ding, Yorkshire. 
 
 8677. There the figure for coal miners' phthisis was 
 66 ■ten years ago, and it is less now ; it certainly has 
 ■not increased? — Quite so. You see, the whole of this 
 inquiry has bean based on medical evidence produced 
 Srox Stocksbridge and Oughtibridge. Those are the 
 only places where the disease Exists. In the ether 
 places the psople started later than we did, and have 
 the advantage of our experience, and it is owing to us 
 having been the pioneers of the trade that the bad 
 Tesults havs happened. 
 
 8678. (Professor Allhiitt.) Will you agree with me 
 ■that until you carried out these exceedingly proper 
 
 Mr. F. H. 
 Brooke, 
 
 improvements the physicians of the neighbour- 
 hood had no opportunity of forming an experience; 
 they had to work out the problem just as you had— 
 if so, I do not see why tihey ought to be blamed for 5 Mar. 1907.. 
 
 not recognising the conditions of the employment ?— A 
 
 post-mortem examination might have satisfied them. 
 
 8679. As these matters are better undenstood the dis- 
 crimination will become so decisive, and the rules of 
 diagnosis so clear, you will not be more in the hands 
 of the meddoal profession, will you, than you are in 
 the hands of any other profession, such as the law, 
 when^ you seek advice?— But what does liie law 
 say with regard to a man dying of tuberculosis or chest 
 complaints having worked at our place for a few 
 months ? — ^Shall not we be held responsible ? 
 
 8680. {Chairman.) The law does not say anything at 
 present. You are not included at present, and if you 
 are included it may be with modifications ? — Quite so. 
 
 8681. (Professor AUbuU.) Do you know anything 
 about miners' beat hand P — No. 
 
 8682. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you wish to 
 state to the Committee ?— I should like to say further 
 that before you decide to do anything with regard to 
 putting us in the the 3rd Schedule, I think you would 
 be very wise in taking medical evidence from medical 
 men who are practising near other silica and ganister 
 brick works. They can tell you what the other dis- 
 tricts are doing. You see, the ■whole of this inquiry 
 is based on one district. It is sort of prejudiced, you 
 may say. It is against us because we were the pioneers. 
 It is not taking the view of the whole trade, and the 
 former conditions to-day in my works and in Lo^vrooda 
 are past. I am sure Lowood's and my firm, who are 
 now the only two firms who have workmen with dust 
 on their lungs, would be quite prepared, along with 
 the workpeople, to form a sick club until such time 
 as the. > men who have already got the dust had been 
 fully looked after. 
 
 8683. (Professor Allhutt.) I think we may assist 
 you by saying that the evidence of the injury of 
 ganister dust does not depend entirely on your district, 
 but even if it did, it -would come under a very m-iich 
 larger head of chionic pulmonary disease due to the 
 inhalation of dusit, more especially of metallic or silici- 
 ous dust ? — ^I am inclined to think you have two sorts 
 of diseases to contend with in mines and works ; in one 
 case.you have a mixture on the man's lungs of coal and 
 silica dust, and in the other you have silica only, just 
 the same as in >a stonemason's disease. 
 
 Mr. Herbert Hinchliffe, called and examined. 
 
 8684. (Chairman.) Are you a proprietor of ganister 
 works and of collieries also ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8685. And ganister mines? — Yes. 
 
 8686. Whereabouts do you carry on your industry? 
 — Near to Pemistone, some thirteen miles from Shef- 
 field, or about six miles from Deepoar. 
 
 8687. About how many men have you employed in 
 •working ganister in your mine ? — ^About 30. 
 
 8688. How many men have you employed in the 
 ganister mills ? — Round about on the surface I should 
 ihink we have something like 40 men. 
 
 8689. Have you had many cases of phthisis either 
 in the mine or the mill ?— I do not remembar a single 
 case of what I considered at the time to be phthisis. 
 Of course, I am not a medical man, and I do not under- 
 -stand these terms altogether, but in my experience of 
 over some twenty years I have only noticed two cases 
 ,jof what I considered to be consumption. I do not 
 
 undersitand the various forms of disease, but I have 
 hrought the medical ofiioer's report of the district as 
 .somie evidence on the point. 
 
 8690. Is it your personal experience that your men 
 do not suSer greatly from lung diseases ? — That is so. 
 
 -8691. Do your workpeople live long in your employ- 
 ment ? Do they live to old age ?— Yes. We have very 
 good records as to that. We have one man who has 
 Actually worked for us over 70 years. 
 
 8692. Was he exposed to ganister dust?— In the 
 «arly part of his life in the mine he was. 
 ■ 8693. Can you tall me how many years' service youi 
 i^workpeople average?— I think they average over ^^S 
 years. 
 419 
 
 8694. That is (taking them all, is it ?- 
 them all. 
 
 -That is taking 
 
 8695. Then for fibroid phthisis, or any disease of 
 that character, no matter what nomenclatura you may 
 take, if it were scheduled there would be very few cases 
 in which your firm would have to pay? — I am rather 
 afraid if the workmen got to know the effect of the 
 Act properly the good relationship between the masters 
 and the men, which has obtained during the last 80 
 years, would cease ; that they would commence to 
 malinger and draw their wages, and go out and do 
 light employment. Up to this time we have been par- 
 ticularly careful to look after our workmen. There is 
 no doubt that in this long period we have men who, 
 from some cause or other, may have lung dis6ase,and 
 I fail to see how we could get out of paying compensa- 
 tion, whether it was caused in the industry or not, so 
 that we should have to take la, diSerent view of the 
 question ■to what we have done previously. 
 
 8696. If it had to be certified by a certifying surgeon 
 that a man was suffering, say, from fibrosis of the 
 lung, and there is an appeal from him to an expert 
 medical referee, and when it was proved on the authority 
 of these two medical men the man ■was suffering from 
 this disease, and he then had to prove in court if 
 necessary, that he contracted it in your employment or 
 in the industry, do not you think that would be suffi- 
 cient safeguard ? — I have not gone very closely into the 
 medical point, but it strikes me it is impossible for a 
 medical man to give an opinion as to the 
 cause except by a post-mortem exaanination. I 
 do not know whetther I am correct, but in 
 a case where a man ■wished, to malinger you 
 could not very well make a post-mortem examina- 
 
 2'L 
 
 Mr.H. 
 Einchli^t. 
 
266 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. H. 
 Einch Ujfc. 
 
 5 Mar. leOT. 
 
 tion of him to decide the question. I fail to see danger 
 really in the industry, and to my mind this matter has 
 arisen in consequence of two firms only. I am only 
 six or seven miles away from them, and the only thing 
 I want is a due inquiry with regard to the rest of the 
 firms. I have not been consulted in the inquiry with 
 which Mr. Robertshaw hasi been connected ; in fact, I 
 have never thoroughly understood it. I do not beliive 
 I have ever read it, because it did not concern my 
 district, and when the matter was on I was not aware 
 of it. I only casually came across Mr. Brooke, who 
 explained the situation to me, and I am anxious, be 
 fore you take any steps, that you should make in- 
 quiries into our district and other districts in which 
 ganister is worked. 
 
 8697. {Professor AUhutt.) Do you mean you would 
 send your own medical men to give evidence? — 
 Yes, 1 should like you to see Dr. Wilson, the medical 
 officer of health for my district, who writes to me : 
 " Although I have lived in Penistone 31 years, and have 
 attended neaT;ly all the men who are eaigaged in the 
 ganister works, I cannot call to mind a single case of 
 phthisis which I should say had been caused by that 
 industry. I have also been medical officer of health 
 for Thurlestone for albout 25 years, but I have never 
 had occasion to make any reference to lung disease 
 being prevalent among workers at the ganister works.*' 
 
 8698. How do you think a man could malinger 
 ehronic pulmonary disease, which was said, in the 
 •pinion of a medical man, to be due to dust? — Take an 
 old miner — and I have one man in my mind now who 
 has wokred for my family over 50 years — I walked 
 home with that man from his work last Friday after- 
 non. He is something like 60 years of age, and be 
 breathes very shortly, and cannot walk very fast, but 
 ha can do his day'is work quite easily. He is not 
 capable of getting along the road like he could when 
 he was a young man, and I can quite recognise that 
 that man may have some dust, coaJ dust or ganister 
 dust, or anything else, on the lungs, but I say old e.ge 
 to a very large extent has brought him to the st:ite 
 he is in, though he might make a claim for compensa- 
 tion, and I could not say, and I fail to see, how a 
 med,i/cal mlan could diagnose the cause of his complaint 
 entirely. 
 
 8699. Your point is not so much that ih© could malin- 
 ger the disease, but that he could malinger the degree 
 of incapacity for work ; ibecause you yourself admit that 
 this shortness of breath is due to his employment ? — I 
 do not. 
 
 8700. I understand that incapacity may be malin- 
 gered ; that is really your point, is it not f — Yes. T 
 think tin- man can get compensation by malingering. 
 
 8701. But in that case he must have the disease at 
 any raite in some degree. He must haive that condition 
 of chest wihdch can be ascertiained by imediical examina- 
 tion, thou/gh how far it inoapiacitates him may perhaps 
 be la matter of doubt. Do not you thinik it would be 
 better to put it that the uncertainty lies rather in the 
 degree of incapacity than in the mature of the disease ? 
 I am not very rwell versed in the medical aspect of this 
 matter, but I think without post-morterai examination 
 you could not properly or Siatisfajotorily diaignose the 
 cause of the complaint. 
 
 8702. That is very true as a general principle, but 
 we are speaking of men who are not dead. You pro- 
 baibly would agree with me, would you not, that a 
 sufficient number of post-mortems in such cases must 
 have been made on which to found an opinion? — 
 Yes. 
 
 8703. When sufficient post-mortems have been made, 
 surely upon that may be based a very good opinion as 
 to the state of those who are living? — ^No doubt you 
 can deduce from those examinations, but my strong 
 point is to go further into the matter, and investigate 
 it more widely before taking action. I think the 
 matter has been conducted in too narrow a compass 
 for the trade properly to become aware of it. 
 
 8704. You scarcely know, do you, how widely we 
 have gone into the matter, but in so far as you suggest 
 that in your particular district we might have more 
 information, and you will tender tO' us medical evi- 
 dence in addition to what we have had already, we 
 shall bs glad to hear it ? — Thank you. 
 
 8705. (Dr. Legge.) You said you had about 30 
 workers', and that the average duration of employment 
 had been 35 years? — Yes. 
 
 6706. I am bound to say the figures one has deaKng 
 with a district six miles from you do not bear out your 
 views. Do you think there would be anything abnor- 
 mal in the conditionsi of work if in this list of 69i 
 ganister miners' deaths, which I have, the average age- 
 of the whole 69 from diseases of the lungs was 38?— 
 I should say it was abnormal. 
 
 8707. Those are all the deaths occurring within the: 
 years 1891 to 190O in the district of Deepcar and, 
 Oughtibridge ? — I think I can give a reason for it. In 
 that particular district they have developed their con- 
 cerns very quickly, and the result has been that they 
 have had to draw labour from wherever they could get 
 it. Quite the opposite applies in our district, where 
 the thing has gone on in its usual course for a number 
 of years, and we have been able tO' choose our men. 
 W<> have got what we consider good, quiet workinif 
 men, but when you take a stranger, you take him at a. 
 risk.' It is very usual' for the riff-raff of society in th€> 
 working-class population to walk about. We have- 
 applications, perhaps, half a dozen times a week, for 
 employment, but we never give work to a stranger if 
 we can avoid it. In the Stocksbiidge Valley they 
 have never been able to get sufficient labour, and they- 
 have set everyone on, and I think they have takeie 
 great risks in doing so. 
 
 8708. Have your works been established as long as 
 these other works? — Our works, as a firm, have been 
 established longer, but not in the ganister industry. 
 
 8709. I find in the list here only two out of sixty- 
 nine are over 50 years of age, one 62, and the other 54^ 
 every one of the others being under 50 years of age, 
 so that they ought not to be broken down at that age 
 from ordinary causes, apart from conditions due to 
 their work, ought they ? — If you take the ordinary type- 
 of man going about the country seeking work, I think 
 he is broken down to start with. He has not taken 
 care of himself ; he may be a drunkard or something- 
 else ; he has not looked after himself, and is a very- 
 risky man to engage. 
 
 8710. (Professor Allhuii.) Did you hear the evidence 
 given by the previous jvitness ? — Yes. 
 
 8711. Have you the same wet process in use as he 
 described ?— Yes, unier the Coal Mines Regulation Act. 
 
 8712. (Dr. Legge.) But only within the last twoi 
 years ? — ^Yes, about two years ago. Of course, the mines 
 inspector required all the firms to adopt this 
 regulation, and although I believe we proved to 
 him that in some cases it was not necessary in viet 
 mines to wet the drill hole or the ganister previous to 
 breaking it up, still, the thing is done as well as xwssi- 
 ble all the way through. 
 
 8713. (Professor Allhutt.) Then in your opinion, hae 
 the change been beneficent ? — I think under our special 
 conditions there has been no improvement, .beoause it 
 was not neceesai-y to start with. 
 
 8714. Because it was a wet mine ? — Yes, but it was 
 such a little matter to do that we have never grumbled 
 at it. 
 
 8715. (Dr. Legge.) Is the whole of your mine wet? — 
 It varies. As a rule it is ; it varies from a wet to a 
 damp mine. 
 
 8716. Might not that account for the fact that the 
 men have not had to encounter the same amount of 
 dust in your mine as they have in the mines six miles 
 off? — ^I do not like to give an opinion, because I am not 
 conversant with their working conditions, but I take 
 it it is largely that they have not been sufficiently- 
 discreet in choosiing their labour, and that circum- 
 stances have caused them to take anyone on. 
 
 8717. (Mr. Cunynghame.) What district are yow 
 speaking of with regard to the West 'Riding of York- 
 shire ? — The southern division of the West Riding. 
 
 6718. How many works are there that you know of 
 in that district? — ^We have four within a radius of 
 some mile and a-half. 
 
 8719. And more beyond that? — ^Yes, right away up 
 through West Yorkshire. 
 
 8720. How many do you know of personally along 
 that district, roughly ?— Right away up to Leeds, I 
 should say there are a score, practically, although I 
 do not know them personally. 
 
 8721. How many of -those works use jets of water iD 
 the mills? — All of them, or the whole lot should in 
 the ordinary manufacture. 
 
 8722. You bslieve they are all using the water pro- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 267 
 
 WV^t'^'v,'^** you?— I do, and I think they always did. 
 1 tnmk the water process in the mills is necessary for 
 *h« manufacture of the goods. 
 
 8723. Was not it customary not so long ago to break 
 ap the stuff with sledge hammers ?— That is the stone 
 oreakers. You s^, we have a grinding mill, where we 
 grind into mortar, and we have the stone-breater. I 
 ■am afraid I did not understand your question. 
 
 8724. Some of the breakers use water, do they not ? 
 — ^I believe they are all obliged to have it. 
 
 8725. Since when ? — I take it, two years ago. 
 
 8726. And a great improvement has resulted, I pre- 
 sume ? — ^There isi no doubt if you can lay the dust it is 
 an improvement. 
 
 8727. If a great improvement has followed from the 
 Mse of water, does not it show tha,t carelessly managed 
 works may be dangerous?— I take it that dust" is 
 acknowledged to be a serious matter in any state. 
 
 8728. Granister dust or dust in general ?— Dust in ^,. g 
 general. I do not think ganister dust is a good thing, m-rhliffe 
 and If you can allay it, by all means do so M^JM^Je. 
 
 . 8729. It is about the mos^, dangerous dust there is, ^ ^^•J_?07. 
 13 it not ? — I am not prepared to say that, because m/ 
 experience points out that our men have lived long, 
 happy lives in the industry. 
 
 8730. Would you name any dust which you con- 
 sider more dangerous/ than ganister dust?— The grit 
 stone which the mason chisels away without wetting 
 ">^ stone, is to my min^, considerably more dangerous 
 and the conditions are more dangerous, than our men 
 work under. 
 
 8731. 1 was rather referring to the quality of the 
 dust?— I think a very sharp grit is about as bad a 
 thing as you can have. 
 
 8732. They are pretty much on a par, are they not ? 
 —I do not think there is anything to choose between 
 them. 
 
 Mr. AuEED Henht Ruegg, k.c, called, and examined. 
 
 8733. (Chairman.) Do you attend here at the request 
 of the ganister mine owners, whom the Committee 
 liave just examined ? — I represent the owners engaged 
 in the ganister industry. 
 
 8734. Have you heard the evidence given by Mr. 
 Brooke and Mr. Hinchliffe? — Yes. 
 
 8736. Are there any points with regard to which yo u 
 would like to supplement that evidence ? — I think my- 
 aelf that there would be many difficulties in practii^e 
 in including such a trade as the ganister trade within 
 the third schedule of the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act. It seems to me that it is an industry in which 
 there aia great difficulties, in the diagnosis of 
 lihe disease in its various stages, both in the 
 initial stage and in what may be called the 
 sidvanoed etage, and some difficulties in case of death. 
 I think myself, speaking from my considerable ex- 
 perience of the way in which workmen's compensation 
 cases have been in the past fought in the courts, that 
 there would be very great liability in an industry of 
 this kind of malingering, and often a liability put upon 
 tlhe onine owners in case of death where the disease was 
 n.H reially the oaiise of death, but was only an induc- 
 ing cause — what we call in law a causa sine qua 
 non — and where it could not be said to be the real and 
 effective cause of death. It would be 'perfectly easy for 
 medical mem to say, and they would say, " I think 
 in this particular case death would not have resulted, 
 at this time, at all events, but for the industry in which 
 the man was enigaged " ; and as I view the law, unless 
 special siafegu'aids are >put into tJie Act against that, 
 there will be seriouis liabiMty ; beoause in law, if you 
 hiasten a man's death, you cause it. 
 
 8736. Does not the same difficulty arise in the case 
 of accidents which are followed! 'by prolonged ill- 
 ness ? — Sometimes ; and there, in some oases, I think 
 very considerable injustice is done to the person who 
 is made liable. One Qias heard of cases wihera 
 quite a small accident, neglected by the patient, 
 has resulted in blood poisoning and death, and the 
 person who is responsible for the original accident has 
 been held liable for the death. Those are oases in 
 which I think considerable injustice is worked. But I 
 apprehend this trade would be much more liable to 
 such cases, if what is called " ganister disease " were 
 broughit within the Act. 
 
 8737. Are you aware that in Clause 8 of the Work- 
 men's Compensation Act of last year a special ma- 
 chinery is established for the investigation of such 
 cases, and that the certifying surgeon is brought in 
 with an appeal to a specially appointed referee ? — The 
 factory surgeon is the person, in the first instance, to 
 say whotiher there ihas been -incapacity, or whether 
 the death has been occasioned by the disease. I do not 
 know that he necessarily has any special experience 
 in diseases .of 'this kind : he is often an ordinary practa- 
 tioner in the neighbourhood. Then, as I understand, 
 the appeal is to the medical referee of the district? . 
 
 8738. No, not necessarily of the district, but a medi- 
 cal referee appointed according to regulations to be 
 made by the Secretary of State?— That is true; but 
 if it is to be a medical referee of the district, I think 
 I may say, from my own experience, he is an ordinary 
 medical practioner in the district, and a man with no 
 special experience, or Sfpecdal eminence in the pro- 
 fession. 
 
 419 
 
 8739. Supposing various lung diseases were sche- 
 duled under this Act, and half a dozen medical men 
 were appointed in different parts of the country who 
 were acknowledged experts in these diseases, with long 
 and wide experience of them, there would be less 
 danger, would there not, of false diagnosis ?— Un- 
 doubtedly, and unquestionably that would be a great 
 advantage ; in fact, I do not think the matter could 
 be dealt with in any other way. 
 
 8740. You will have noticed, no doubt, that Section 
 8 of the Workmen's Ctompensation Act, the section 
 which authorises the Secretary of State to add further 
 diseases to schedule 3, authorises the provisions of this 
 section to be extended to those diseases with or without 
 modifications ? — Yes. 
 
 8741. Has your experience led you to think of any 
 particular modifications which you think would be 
 desirable in applying it to such a disease as fibroid 
 phthisis among ganister miners?— I cannot say that 
 my experience has. I have had many suggestions 
 made to me as to what modifications should be intr«» 
 duced. 
 
 8742. Will you tell the Committee what they are ^.^ 
 One modification which has been strongly suggested 
 to me and plausible reasons given for it is, that if 
 these miners are to be included they sihould not be in- 
 cluded as froim the present time, but that some time 
 sho'uld be allowed before (the order rcomefs into force. 
 
 8743. On what ground was that suggestion made? — • 
 One ground is, that the industry has already made 
 a large number of contracts at fixed prices, and that 
 the insuran'-e premiums would be very large. But 
 that is a small matter perhaps. It seems to me, how- 
 ever, that it would be necessary for any insurance 
 company insuring such an industry as this, to take 
 most careful measures and to find out by statistics 
 wbaA the risk is M'kely to be before quoting 'any 
 premium ait all ; that of itself anust talke some con- 
 siderable time. Then' it is su'ggosted that to bring in 
 ganister 'disease alone, whicfh, after 'all, is only a smiall 
 industry in w'hich (there are inj'urious effects from 
 siMcious dust, would be somewhat unfair, and that if 
 it is brought in it oujiht to be br'ougfct in as p'art of a 
 miicli more general scheme, viz., one including all 
 kinds of disease due to dust. 
 
 8744. That is a question of the extent of the addi- 
 tions to the schedule rather than the modifications of 
 the provisions of the section to be applied to these 
 diseases, is it not? — Yes, that is quite true. Then I 
 certainly think it would be necessary, if they are to 
 be brought in, that some very careful modification 
 should 'be added to the effect that the disease 
 was to be the real and effective cause of the 
 deatib or the incapacity. I think it_ would be 
 very risky to leave it to the law to decide whether 
 the disease h'ad caused the death ; 'because, as I under- 
 stand the law, if it hastened 'it, if it was a causa sine 
 qua non, and if without the effects of the industry the 
 man 'would ha/ve lived a 'few months or a few days 
 longer, it is deemed to have caused it. Therefore, if 
 the^intention is that the employer is to be liable where 
 the disease is the effective cause of death. I think that 
 ought to be pointed out very plainly indeed. 
 
 8745. The Act provides that compensation should 
 
 2 L 2 
 
 Mr. A. H. 
 Buegg, K.C. 
 
268 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. A. H. 
 Euci r/, K.C. 
 
 5 Mar. 1907 
 
 be paid where the death of a workman is caused by 
 disease ? — That word " caused " has created great diffi- 
 culty. 
 
 8746. Do you think it would be clearer if the Act 
 were to say, " mainly caused " ; do you think that 
 would give rise to as much discussion as the simple 
 word " caused " ? — ^I think it would. 
 
 6747. {Professor Allbutt.) Would the woixi " imme- 
 dia;te " meet the difficulty, do you think ? — That 
 would be ii strong word. I see Mr. Ounynghame 
 has said during the proceedings : " There is only one 
 way of doing this, that is, excluding phthisis . not 
 necessarily produced by the ganister." 
 
 8748. Have you any other modifications to suggest? 
 — I do not think any more occur to me at the present 
 time. 
 
 ■ 8749. (Mr. Cunynghame.) It has been suggested to 
 the Committese, and I think the owners tliemselves 
 said so, that this would cause a certain number of aneu 
 to be removed from their employment. Have you any 
 remarks to m'ake oipon tihiait head? — Yes. Of. - 
 course I do not know anytShing with regard to this 
 particular industry, but I took a very great interest, 
 and some part, in the evidence which was given before 
 the Committee which sat upon the Workmen's Oom- 
 pensH/ticn Act. There was a lot of evidence given as 
 to the effect that Act would have upon old men, simply 
 because of their greater liability to accidents, 
 because they were not so agile as younger men, and 
 it was said they would be, indeed had been in the 
 past, largely dismissed. Such a strong effect had that 
 evidence upon the Oomimittee that they recommended 
 special rules with regard to aged men, which were 
 wisely, or unwisely, struck out in Parliament. 
 
 8750. Is there any evidence that those fears were 
 justified ? — I think there was a great deal of evidence. 
 
 8751. As a fact? — ^Yes, as a fact in consequence of 
 the operation of the Workmen's Compensation Act of 
 ]«B97. I feel sure there was very strong evidence given 
 before the Committee that old men could not get em- 
 ployment, and some eividence was, I think, given on 
 behalf of these men expresising their own wish that they 
 migiht 'be allowed, if not to contract out of the Act, to 
 contract out of it to a limited extent, to take less com- 
 pensation if they were allowed to work after 60 years 
 of age. 
 
 8752. Are you prepared with any practical sugges- 
 tion for the consideration of the Committee which 
 could be put before men and employers, to see what 
 they would say tO' it p — In what sense ? 
 
 8753. Any suggestion as to the way in which the 
 older men should be treated? I have thought of all 
 sorts of ways, but none of them lare quite satisfactory. 
 For instance that, with respect to men who have been 
 in the industry a certain time, the Act should not come 
 into force for a certain number of years, or possibly such 
 men should be given the power of election as to whether 
 they would come \inder the Act or not ? — All such sug- 
 gestions, I 'agree, are open to objection, but I think my- 
 self ithe least objectionable course was the course which 
 the Committee which sat on the Workmen's Com- 
 pensation Act recommended, namely, that in certain 
 cases the men might make a contract (not contracting 
 themselves out of the whole of the benefits of the 
 Act) to get partial benefits under the Act. 
 
 8754. (Chairman.) Do you think that ought to apply 
 to the case of diseases? — I think it would be a very 
 reasonable and fair thing. I do not know whether 
 it is within the powers of the Home Secretary to so 
 alter the Act. 
 
 8755. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Speaking as a lawyer, 
 would you call it a pn.ssible modification of the 
 section ? Do you read th(! word m.odification m a wide 
 sense, as giving considerable power to the Home Secre- 
 tary ? — Yes, I think so. The words are : " Either with 
 or without modification, or subject to such modifica- 
 tions as may be contained in the Order." I think 
 there may be some doubt, but I think it includes 
 modifications of the Act itself. 
 
 8756. (Chairman.) Supposing the Home Secretary 
 were to make an order to the effect that in cases of 
 industrial diseases compensation should be twice as 
 much as is provided in a case of accident — that would 
 not be a modification, would it? — No, that would 
 be an extension. 
 
 8757. If the Home Secretary made an order that 
 the compensation should be half as much, do you. 
 think that would be a modification? — I think so; it 
 is arguable either way, but I think it would be. May 
 I point out that the power of the Home Secretary 
 under this Section see'ms to be very large. 
 
 8758. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Looking at the. figures 
 given in the Registrar-General's returns of deaths, a»d 
 assuming that the incapacities would be in some mea- 
 sure proportionate, the risk docs not appear to be so- 
 enormous in the ganister cases as ought to make the 
 insurance very heavy, does it ? In regard to tin men, 
 the risks are very heavy. In accident cases the risk, 
 of coal miners as compared with ocQupied males in, 
 general is 428 to 100 ; that is to say, 4^- times as heavy ? 
 — ^Of course, ooal mining is a very dangeroue industry 
 as far as accidents are conoemed. 
 
 8759. When you come to phthisis, the risk is smalt 
 in the coal industry. If the ganister industry is some- 
 thing like that, this would not be such a very large- 
 addition after all, would it, if the ratios are as the- 
 returns seem to show ? I rather invite proof from an 
 insurance company that they would want large sums ? 
 — I think the insurance companies in all these cases, 
 have to look not only at past statistics, but what 
 they think will happen when the Act is in operation, 
 in the shape of expecting far more claims, some of 
 which they would successfully resist, but the vast 
 majority of which they could not successfully resist. 
 
 8760. Could your doctors give suggestions, if the> 
 thing is to be scheduled, as to the terms in which 
 the disease is to be described? — Yes, but it seems to- 
 me, if I may venture to say so, that this ganister 
 disease has got a bad name in consequence of tho 
 evidence which was given by Dr. Robertshaw. It does. 
 not appear to have been considered as a disease dis- 
 tijiiot from dust poisoning u:itil Dr. Eobertshaw called 
 attention to it. Turning to Qu'ain's Diotiomary of 
 Medicine, it is described as a distinct disease. No 
 doubt it is only colloquial, but still it has its separate- 
 heading, and a terrible picture is drawn of it. Quain 
 says the miners develop a hacking oough, and in four or 
 five years' time they die, and gives a very high death 
 rate. But the authorities for the statements are Dr. 
 Robertshaw and Dr. Birminigham (who I believe- 
 derived his stjutistics and facts from Dr. Robert- 
 shaw). Dr. Robertshiaw spoke, no doubt, as to 
 one particular district in which there were existing 
 works which were not properly managed at that time. 
 May I say that it does seem to me from the evidence- 
 given that as the whole injury arises from dust, and 
 as there is no process in this trade in which it is 
 necessary to treat the product in a dry state, if yoi» 
 remove the danger you remove the necessity of putting, 
 the industry inlto the third schedule. 
 
 8761. (Professor Allbutt.) We are now speaking: 
 on the nomenclature of the disease, and not on the 
 business which may be included in the second column 
 of the schedule. I do not quite understand what you 
 mean iby siaying "really" or "essentially," and you 
 gave an exaimple which I was even less able to «)mpre- 
 hend. I suppose your point is as to the degree in 
 wh ioh dust enters into the oause of death or inoapaoity f 
 — ^Yes. 
 
 8762. And I suppose when you say it is, or not, 
 "really," the cause., you mean thaA there may havff 
 been some inter-currenit event ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8763. Yet I suppose you would not deny that, how- 
 ever remote it miay be, if the disease be 'a oontinuou* 
 process the death would be attributalble to the original 
 initiation of the disease? — in law, yes. 
 
 8764. And in parthology also ? — ^I suppose that would 
 be so. 
 
 8765. Suppiosing, for instance, a mlan to hjave dust 
 disease of the lungs, and to be on the eve 
 of inoapaoitajfcion, and then to break his leg, 
 you have an iinter-<3urrent event, and his im- 
 mediate inoapaiodtaition is not caused by the disease? 
 — May I follow that? Supposing he breaks his leg, 
 which leads to the general lowering of his health ; 
 that, combined with the ganister lungs, if I may call 
 it so, renders him much more liable to be attacked 
 by what may be called the tubercle bacillus, and he 
 is atbaidked by the tubercle bacillus partly owing to the 
 condition of his lung laaid partly owing to the lowerinfT 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 2C9 
 
 of the health by the accident, and death results from 
 tuiborcular cansumption, in .a sense the death is caused 
 by the condition of tihe lunigs. 
 
 8766. Buit taking your exaamiple of a man ihiaving a 
 wound, whioh goes on to blood .poisoning, that -would 
 be ai oontinuioTis. ohtoge of evemts, Tv-ould it not ?— But 
 it miarjr be 'brugh't albout :by improper care on the part 
 of the patient himself. 
 
 8767. Well, supposing a man falls down acnd cuts his 
 hand ajid dies of look jaw, the lockjaw is not 
 ap. ujter-current event?— I am quite sure if this 
 disease is put without qualification into the schedule 
 
 .l/r. .1. H. 
 lliiegg, k.c. 
 
 the ordinary course when ithe oases come into court 
 wUI be chis : The doctor will /be asked " Had this 
 
 man some gamster on the lung? (A.) Yes. (Q.) Do 
 
 you thmk that, at all events, accelerated his death; 5 Mar, 1907 
 
 would he have died on the pa^rticular day if he had not 
 
 woriked five or ten years soubjeot to ganister dust?" 
 and If the doctor says, las he would be obliged to, " I 
 think he may probably have lived a little longer, 
 although he had the seeds of consumption in him, but 
 for havmg been engaged in the industry," if this 
 industry is put into the sohedule without modification 
 in my opinion the employer would be liable in every 
 such case. •' 
 
 Me. Edwin W. D. Kite, m.b., m.k.c.s., l.s.a., called and examined. 
 
 8768. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man in practice 
 in Hillsbprough, near Sheffield ?— I am. I am now 
 actually within the Borough boundary of Sheffield now. 
 
 8769. Are you Medical Officer of Health for the 
 District of Wortley Union?— I have been Medical 
 Officer of Health, but at the present time I am 
 Medical Officer for the Union. 
 
 8770. Are you also Factory Surgeon ? — I am Factory 
 Surgeon for the Owlerton District of Sheffield, which 
 includes the ganister area. 
 
 8771. Are you of opinion that ganister disease is 
 much less prevalent than it used to be? — ^Yee. I 
 am decidedly of opinion that it is very much less than it 
 was when I first came to Sheffield 18 or 20 years ago. 
 
 8772. But cases do occasionally occur? — ^Vei-y rarely 
 indeed. In the last few years I have only had one 
 case, and that was the latter end of last year, but I 
 have lost sight of the patient entirely. 
 
 8773. Has your practice altered at all ? — No, except 
 that it has increased ; it is among exactly the same 
 class of people. I commenced practice by myself, but 
 now there are four doctors practising in my firm. 
 
 8774-5. Are you of opinion that it is easy, or that 
 it is possible, to determine whether in any individual 
 case a man was suflfering from phthisis due to dust, or 
 from tubercular consumption, or some other lung 
 disease ? — ^I should say in the earlier stages it is prac- 
 tically impossible. 
 
 8776. By " earlier stages " do you mean stages in 
 which a man is not incapacitated from work? — Yes. 
 
 8777. But when he becomes incapacitated from work 
 would it be possible? — I should not undertake a 
 differential diagnosis with any very great confidence. 
 
 8778. But do you sometimes come across very 
 dear cases in -which you can say : " This man is 
 suffering from fibrosis " ? — T have not come across a 
 clear case for some years. In the case I referred to, 
 the man has a tubercular history, and the only way 
 I could' possibly put him down as having ganister" 
 phthisis was because he happened to work in a ganister 
 mine, and he was a young man. I did not take any 
 particular notice of the case, but from the idea I had 
 in my mind that man had a tubercular history, and 
 it was tubercular rather than ganister. 
 
 8779. Are you of opinion that coal dust is a lung 
 irritant to the same extent as ganister.? — I should 
 say that it is very difficult -to tell the difference 
 between the two. I may say that some years ago I 
 was living in the South Staffordshire coal mining 
 district and had some little experience of it, and 
 comparing the symptoms of coal miners' disease with 
 the symptoms of ganister disease in my district, I 
 
 should say the difference is so small as practically ,)>,£■ w D 
 not to be noticeable. If anything, ganister symptoms "kiie.M.B,, * 
 in my district, at any rate, are practically nil. m r.c.s., 
 
 8780. Are you surgeon to a club in Wadsley which L-S-A. 
 , consists of miners ? — I am surgeon to a club at Wadsley 
 
 which is called the Miners' Club. 
 
 8781. Does it consist mainly of miners? — It consists 
 mainly of miners. 
 
 8782. Are they ganister miners or coal miners? — They , 
 are both. A man might be a ganister miner at one 
 time, and a coal miner at another. 
 
 8783. In this club do you find members suffering 
 from phthisis ? — I have not seen a single case. 
 
 8784. Have you had any in recent years? — I have 
 net in recent years, 
 
 ' 8785. {Mr. Cunynghame.) You act for the Prudential 
 Afisurance' Company, do you not? — My firm do. 
 
 8786. Have they taken any particular notice of this 
 ganister disease? — They have not. They do an 
 immense business in that way, and have never taken 
 any particular notice. 
 
 8787. That is a two-edged argument, is it not, 
 becai;se if, they have not taken much notice of it, it 
 does not follow that in the future they would increase 
 their-premiums?— I could not say as to that. The 
 Prudential is an old-established company in the dis- 
 trict,- and- have a very -big business, as we know by 
 the amount of work we do. The miners in our part 
 insure for small amounts of £25 to £50 and £100, and 
 they have never put any restrictions in our way, 
 neither have they increased the premiums in any way 
 in regard, to ganister miners compared with men oi 
 the farmer class, of whom there are many in my 
 district. . 
 
 6788. (Professor Allbutt.) Your experience of dust 
 disease of the lung is so* small a^s to be almost 
 insignificant, I take it ?■ — Yes, and I should say it is 
 provcH also by'the statistics "and T>y the returns of the 
 medical officers of health. 
 
 8786. Then you do not rely very much upon your 
 opinion, I take it, that a differential diagnosis is 
 impossible by those who have seen a good deal of dust 
 diseases.'' — There are so few in our district, and we 
 have a great many ganister workers there. 
 
 8790. You are not in a position to say that persons 
 who are in other districts, and who have seen a great 
 deal of dust diseases of the lungs, would not be able 
 to form an opinion, are you? — All I can say is, we 
 practice in a district where there are a great many of 
 these ganister grinders, and the medical officer of 
 health for tho district only reported one case last 
 year for 1905. 
 
 Mr. AxmED Gebenwood, called and examined. 
 
 8791. (Chairman.) Are you Secretary of the Glass 
 Bottle Makers of Yorkshire United Trade Protection 
 Society ?— Yes. 
 
 8792. And corresponding National Secretary of the 
 Glass Makers' 'Societies of the United Kingd'Om ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8793. Are you able to tell the Committee something 
 about, diseases of the eye from which bottle makers 
 suffer ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 8794. Are you of opinion that bottle makers do 
 suffer from any special affections of the eye due to 
 their trade ?■ — I think so. 
 
 ' 8795. To what do you attribute that? — To the heat 
 and glare from the furnace and the continuous sweatfng. 
 
 8796. Have you any statistics you can give the 
 Committee showing the extent to which glass bottle 
 workers suffer from cataract and other eye diseases ? — 
 Yes, I have a schedule, which I have supplied to your 
 Secretary, showing the number of workmen who have 
 been superannuated during the last nine years, and 
 the causes from which they have become disabled 
 from employment. 
 
 8797. Are those members of your union ? — Those are 
 members of our union. 
 
 8798. Is there any limit of age up to which super- 
 annuation benefit can be given ? — Yes, 50 years cf ag«> 
 and it has been as low as 45 years of age. 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Greenwood. 
 
270 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. A. 
 
 dreentrvoil. 
 
 5 Mar. 1907 
 
 8799. When was the age raised ? — In December, 1905. 
 
 8800. Then any cases of cataract of a lower age than 
 45 would not appear in this table ? — That is so. 
 
 8801. How many workmen have you in your union 
 from among whom these cases are selected? — About 
 2,360. 
 
 8802. How many of those would be over 45 years 
 of age, should you think ? — All those would be 45 years 
 of age when they began tO' receive superannuation 
 allowance. 
 
 8803. But it is not every member who receives super- 
 annuation, I suppose? — No, only those who become 
 permanently inoapacdta/ted. 
 
 8804. How many members have you over 45 years 
 of age, and who, if they became incapacitated, could 
 claim benefit ? — I oould not answer that question now. 
 
 8805. It would be a few hundreds, I suppose ? — Yes, 
 it would. It is only recently that we have given 
 
 attention to this matter, with a view of ascertaining 
 wbait was tihe condition of the glass bottle hands. It ' 
 happens that nine years ago the Society appointed 
 a medical man to examine the members who applied' 
 for superannuation benefit, except in a few instances 
 where workmen were distant from Yorkshire — for 
 instance, we have a few men who work at Blaydon, a 
 few working at Newport, Monmouthshire, and a few 
 in London here, and on some of them making applica- 
 tion for superannuation benefit they have been examined 
 by medical men in the locality, but several of them 
 have come to Castleford to be examined by our own 
 doctor, and this table has been prepared from his 
 certificates. 
 
 8806. The summary table in your proof, which is 
 the most important, shows that you had 114 oases in 
 those nine years who came on your superannuation 
 fund, does it not? — That is so. 
 
 The Table was handed in, and is as follows : — 
 
 Analysis, showing the various diseases of glass bottle makers, blowers, and gatherers, for which work 
 
 was given up, 1898-1906: — 
 
 Prepared by Dr. G. B. HILLMAN, Castleford. 
 
 Diseases. 
 
 Defective eyesight • 
 
 Cataract - ... 
 
 Ulcer of cornea 
 
 Opacity of lenses 
 
 Optic neuritis 
 
 Glaucoma 
 
 Bronchitis 
 
 Emphysema 
 
 Phthisis 
 
 Heart diseases 
 
 Kidney diseases 
 
 Diseases of blood vessels 
 
 Nervous diseases - 
 
 Other diseases ... 
 
 Total . 
 
 Makers. 
 
 4 
 26 
 
 2 
 
 2 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 1 
 8 
 7 
 7 
 4 
 10 
 
 79 
 
 Blowers. 
 
 2 
 2 
 
 7 
 2 
 
 1 
 3 
 
 2 
 
 Gatherers. 
 
 Total. 
 
 8 
 
 33 
 1 
 3 
 2 
 1 
 3 
 7 
 4 
 16 
 9 
 8 
 7 
 12 
 
 114 
 
 The list handed to me by Mr. Greenwood referred to 
 114 men engaged in various branches of the glass 
 bottle making industry, viz. : — 
 
 Bottle makers ... 79 
 
 Blowers 27 
 
 Gatherers 8 
 
 Total 
 
 ... 114 
 
 From examination of this list, I find that 48 of those 
 ■men ceased work owing to the various diseases of the 
 fyes or defects of vision. Of these 48 men — 
 35 were bottle makers. 
 8 were blowers. 
 5 were gatherers. 
 
 The diseases which incapacitated these men were the 
 following : — 
 
 Cataract 
 
 ... 33 cases. 
 
 Defective eyesight ... 
 
 ... 8 „ 
 
 Opacity of lenses ... 
 
 ... 3 „ 
 
 Optic neuritis 
 
 .-. 2 „ 
 
 G aucoma 
 
 1 case. 
 
 Ulcer of cornea 
 
 • ... 1 „ 
 
 Total 
 
 48 cases. 
 
 Of the above 36 cases of cataract and opacity of 
 lenses — 
 
 28 occurred in bottle makers. 
 4 ,, ,, blowers. 
 
 4 ,, ,, gatherers. 
 
 From the above it will be seen that out of the 114 
 cases, 42.1 per cent, ceased work owing to various eye 
 troubles, and 31.5 per cent, ceased work on account of 
 cataract. 
 
 8807. And out of the total of 114 cases shown in the 
 table were there 33 cases of cataract ? — Yes. 
 
 8808. And 15 cases of other affections of the eyes ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 8809. Were the causes stated here the actual causes 
 of their incapacity? — Yes. The summary which our 
 doctor prepared in analysing the returns shows 33 
 cases of cataract, 8 of defective eyesight, 3 of opacity 
 of lenses, 2 of optic neuritis, 1 glanooma, and 1 of ulcer 
 of cornea. 
 
 8810. But there are one or two cases in which a man 
 had cataract, but in which he migjit have been incapa- 
 citated from some other cause, were there not? For 
 instance, I see one case of phthisis of the left lung 
 and cataract of the right eye? — ^Yes, that is so. 
 
 8811. He might have been incapacitated from the 
 
DEPARTMENTAC COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 271 
 
 phthisis and not from the cataract, might he not?— 
 
 8812. Then there is another case, No. 49, of a man 
 who had gout and commencing double cataract, and 
 another of a man who had chronic rheumatism and 
 cataract of the left eye ?— Yes, but they gav« up work- 
 ing on account of Cataract, because they could not see 
 to do their work. I knew these men personally. 
 
 8813. Do you think we may take it that in all the 
 cases of cataract in the table, the cataract was the 
 cause of the incapacity ?— Yes, I wish that to be under- 
 stood. 
 
 8814. The total number of members of your society 
 is 2,623?— Yes. ^ 
 
 8815. The numbqr of men ■ employed in 1906 was 
 1,122?— Yes. ^ , 
 
 8816. What harppened to the other half of the men' 
 —They are unemployed. Some of them have left the 
 trade to follow other callings, chiefly because there was 
 no employment at ■ the trade, ajid they are honorary 
 members, entitled to funeral benefit in case of death. 
 Then there are the superannuated members. A 
 large portion of men are unemployed, depending o-n 
 the trade for casual work and regular employment 
 when it can be had. Dr. Hillman kindly undertook to 
 analyse the isohedule, wliioh I have marked No. 1, in 
 order to ' classify the cases, and consequently I sup- 
 plied a report, which you have there tabulated, and 
 also Dr. Robinson, of Sunderland, was supplied with 
 data. 
 
 8817. Has Dr. Robinson, of Sunderland, examined 
 all these cases ? — No, but Dr. Hillman has examined 
 all these Inen except a few. 
 
 8818. Are you of' opinion that there are many men 
 in your society who are suffering from cataract or other 
 diseases bf the eye and incapacitated from work, but 
 who are not receiving superannuation benefit, as they 
 are not yet old enough ? — Yes, there are such. 
 
 8819. There are several such men below the age of 
 50, are there ? — Yes, I am quite certain about it ; arid 
 I know some, personally, who suffered from cataract 
 perhaps for 10 years before receiving superannuation. 
 
 8820. Were they still at work ?- Yes. The others 
 worked as long as they could. 
 
 8821. Did they work until they could come upon the 
 superannuation fund ? — ^Yes, they worked as long as 
 they could ; they worked until they were unable to see 
 to do their work properly, and were obliged to retire 
 
 because they could not do it. I have known them Mr A 
 personally and have sent them to the Leeds Infirmary Oreemoool 
 
 to undergo treatment. Dr. Robinson kindly prepared ' 
 
 an analysis which I should like to put in. There was 5 Mar. 1907. 
 
 a difference of a unit of 1 between his table and Dr. 
 
 Hillman s, which was accounted for by reason of classi- 
 fying the workmen at the occupations, but in other 
 respects I telieve their ueports agree. . I have brought 
 them for the information of the Committee. 
 
 8822. On what information is Dr. Robinson's table 
 based ? — It is based on the returns which I have sup- 
 plied him. Dr. Hillman supplies me with the medical 
 certificates, which are s-pecified in the table, giving 114 
 cases. I supplied Dr. Robinson with that list, and he 
 prepared an analysis from the list. 
 
 8823. Has the table been prepared specially for the 
 use of this Committee ?— No, it has been prepared for 
 general information to the workmen. 
 
 8824. Do you publish it evei-y year?— No, but I have 
 interested myself in the question, and have been col- 
 lecting the data for publication for the workmen's use. 
 I have been interested in the subject for years, and 
 have advised the workmen to wear spectacles at work. 
 
 8825. {Professor Allhutt.) What kind of spectacles? 
 . — ^What one would call goggles. 
 
 8826. Do you mean coloured spectacles? — Yes. Dr. 
 Robinson published a paper, of which I heard, and ob- 
 tained a copy of it. I had been advising the workmen 
 to wear glasses, and had obtadmed glasses for their 
 use on trial from Reynolds and Branson, of Leeds. 
 Sometimes I have had 2 dozen pair on loan, and got 
 the men to use and try them. I prepared these data in 
 order to show what the position was of the glass bottle 
 hands, apart laliogethex from this Committee, of which 
 I did not hear until a few days ago. I explain in my 
 notes that if I had had time I could have prepared a full 
 precis. I have another table showing 85 cases of work- 
 men having become superannuated, but under the 
 previous rule of 1891 to 1897. At- that time the work- 
 men obtained three medical certificates on applying for 
 superannuation fronl local doctoi-s. The practice did 
 not seem to give satisfaction, because we found, or had 
 reason to believe-^ih fact, we'know in several instances 
 — one doctor copied from another's certificate, so we 
 changed the mode of procedure and had one doctor. 
 I have not given the names of the diseases in that 
 table, because we had not time to prepare it thoroughly. 
 
 The Table was handed in and is as follows: — 
 
 Number of Glass Bottle Hands in the Yokkshire Society incapacitated from following their Tkade 
 
 during the years 1891-7. 
 
 No. 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 .3 
 
 4 . 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13. 
 H, 
 15 
 16 
 
 Branch. 
 
 Castleford 
 
 do. 
 Khottingley 
 
 do. 
 Castleford 
 Blaydon 
 Castleford 
 
 do. 
 Knottingley - 
 Castleford 
 Huuslet - 
 Thomhill Lees 
 Masbro' - 
 Castleford 
 Bainsley 
 CtCstleford 
 
 Date. 
 
 March 18, 1891 
 S ptember 26, 1891 
 October 3, 1891 
 October 17, 1891 
 October 17, 1891 
 December 1, 1891 
 January 20, 1892 
 January.21, 1892 
 April 18, 1892 
 April 25, 1892 
 June 22,- 1892 
 August 13, 1892 
 August 17, 1892 
 August 27, 1892 
 September 3, 4892.- 
 September 18, 1892 
 
 Age. 
 
 56 
 61 
 64 
 69 
 51 
 67 
 
 56 
 53 
 58 
 63 
 57 
 57 
 54 
 56 
 67 
 
 Catdract. 
 
 No 
 No 
 No 
 
 No 
 
 No 
 No 
 
 Defective Various 
 Sight. Causes. 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 Certific 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 Certific 
 
 1 
 
 Certific 
 
 Certific 
 
 1 
 Certific 
 Certific 
 
 1 
 
 H,te. 
 
 ate. 
 
 ate. 
 
 ate. 
 
 ate. 
 ate. 
 
272 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Grecmcoid. 
 
 5 Mar. 1907 
 
 No, 
 
 Branch. 
 
 TJate. 
 
 Age. 
 
 Cataract. 
 
 Defective 
 Sight. 
 
 Various 
 Causes. 
 
 
 17 
 
 Castleford 
 
 October 1, 1892 . . . - 
 
 56 
 
 No Certific ate. 
 
 
 18 
 
 Hunslet 
 
 October 31, 1892 - - . - 
 
 52 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 19 
 
 Wakefield 
 
 November 2, 1892 - 
 
 52 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 20 
 
 Castleford 
 
 November 28, 1892 
 
 60 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 21 
 
 do. - - ■ 
 
 do. ... 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 22 
 
 Hunslet - 
 
 December 19, 1892 
 
 51 
 
 N( 
 
 Certifi 
 
 J ate. 
 
 
 23 
 
 Thornhill Lees 
 
 January 14, 1893 
 
 56 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 24 
 
 do. - - - - 
 
 February 14, 1893 . . . - 
 
 46 
 
 Nc 
 
 Certific ate. 
 
 
 25 
 
 do. - - 
 
 March 6, 1893 . . . . 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 26 
 
 Castleford 
 
 May 8, 1893 
 
 58 
 
 Jfo 
 
 Certificate. 
 
 
 27 
 
 Knottingley 
 
 April 4th, 1893 .... 
 
 47 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I 
 
 
 28 
 
 Castleford 
 
 November 3, 1893 .... 
 
 57 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 29 
 
 do. 
 
 November 27, 1893 
 
 58 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 30 
 
 do. - - - 
 
 December 30, 1893 
 
 68 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 31 
 
 do. 
 
 do. .... 
 
 60 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 32 
 
 do. - 
 
 January 15, 1894 
 
 46 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 33 
 
 do. .... 
 
 February 28, 1894 .... 
 
 61 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 34 
 
 do. 
 
 do. .... 
 
 69 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 35 
 
 Thornhill, Lees 
 
 June 22, 1894 .... 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 36 
 
 Castleford - ... 
 
 July 2, 1894 
 
 55 
 
 I 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 37 
 
 Wakefield 
 
 July 9, 1894 ... 
 
 64 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 38 
 
 Castleford . . - 
 
 October 15, 1894 .... 
 
 57 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 39 
 
 do. - - 
 
 December 10, 1894 
 
 53 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 40 
 
 Hunslet 
 
 March 25, 1895 
 
 51 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I 
 
 
 41 
 
 Castleford 
 
 June 3, 1895 
 
 60 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 42 
 
 do. - ; - 
 
 July 8, 1895 
 
 58 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 43 
 
 Hunslet 
 
 August 2, 1895 .... 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 44 
 
 Castleford 
 
 September 30, 1895 
 
 55 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 45 
 
 do. 
 
 do. .... 
 
 65 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 46 
 
 do. 
 
 do. 
 
 48 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 47 
 
 Blaydon ... 
 
 AprU 8, 1896 
 
 52 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 48 
 
 Knottingley - - - • 
 
 March 9, 1896 .... 
 
 54 
 
 No 
 
 Certific 
 
 ate. 
 
 
 49 
 
 Castleford 
 
 April 6, 1896 
 
 60 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 50 
 
 do. - ... 
 
 April 20, 1896 .... 
 
 58 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 51 
 
 Hunslet ...... 
 
 May 10,1896 
 
 57 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 52 
 
 Mashro' ... 
 
 do. 
 
 55 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I 
 
 
 53 
 
 Castleford 
 
 May 11, 1896 .... 
 
 65 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 54 
 
 Barnsley 
 
 May 30, 1896 .... 
 
 69 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 55 
 
 Castleford ... 
 
 June 20, 1896 .... 
 
 54 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 56 
 
 do. 
 
 do. ..... 
 
 56 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 57 
 
 Swinton 
 
 August 1, 1896 .... 
 
 64 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 58 
 
 Castleford 
 
 September 7, 1896 .... 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 59 
 
 do. 
 
 do. ..... 
 
 56 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 60 
 
 Wakefield 
 
 September 20, 1896 
 
 57 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 61 
 
 Knottingley 
 
 do. 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 
 «2 
 
 Wakefield 
 
 do. - - • • - 
 
 59 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 273 
 
 -No. 
 
 Branch. 
 
 Date. 
 
 Age. 
 
 Cataract. 
 
 Defective 
 Sight. 
 
 Various 
 CaoEes. 
 
 ,63 
 
 Maabro' 
 
 
 
 October 17, 1896 .... 
 
 55 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 .64 
 
 Caatleford 
 
 
 
 November 2, 1896 
 
 
 
 49 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 t65 
 
 1 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 60 
 
 No 
 
 Certific 
 
 ate. 
 
 66 1 
 
 >Swinton 
 
 
 
 December 12, 1896 
 
 
 
 60 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 vfi7 
 
 Castleford 
 
 
 
 January 11, 1897 • 
 
 
 
 51 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 es 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 68 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 69 
 
 do, 
 
 
 
 February 1, 1897 • 
 
 
 
 62 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 .70 1 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 March 6, 1897 
 
 
 
 58 
 
 
 
 ,, 
 
 1 
 
 '.71 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 52 
 
 
 
 « 
 
 1 
 
 ■72 
 
 Swinton- 
 
 
 
 March 8, 1897 
 
 
 
 60 
 
 
 
 ,__ 
 
 1 
 
 ■:73 
 
 Wakefield 
 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 50 
 
 __^ 
 
 ,,, 
 
 I 
 
 74 
 
 Hunslet - 
 
 
 
 March 29, 1897 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 1 
 
 75 
 
 Knottingley 
 
 
 April 11, 1897 
 
 
 
 53 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 , 
 
 76 
 
 Castleford 
 
 - 
 
 June 21, 1897 
 
 
 
 47 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 ,^ 
 
 '77 
 
 Swinton 
 
 
 
 July 10, 1897 - 
 
 
 
 — . 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 78 
 
 do. 
 
 . 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 79 
 
 Knottingley 
 
 
 
 September 11, 1897 
 
 
 
 48 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 80 
 
 Conisbro' 
 
 . 
 
 October 3, 1897 - 
 
 
 
 54 
 
 — 
 
 \ 
 
 — 
 
 .81 
 
 Castleford 
 
 . 
 
 October 4, 1897 - 
 
 
 
 55 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 82 
 
 Blaydon 
 
 . 
 
 October 30, 1897 - 
 
 
 
 57 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 S3 
 
 Conisbro' 
 
 ■ 
 
 December 2, 1897 ■ 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 )34 
 
 Swinton 
 
 . 
 
 December 11, 1897 
 
 
 
 65 
 
 No 
 
 Certific 
 
 ate. 
 
 85 
 
 Hunslet • 
 
 . 
 
 December 27, 1897 
 
 
 
 54 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 I Total .... 
 
 ■ 
 
 15 
 
 23 
 
 33 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Greenwood. 
 
 5 Mar. 1907. 
 
 Summary. 
 
 Cases of^Catract - 
 Defective sight, etc. 
 
 15 
 23 
 
 Various other Diseases 
 
 38 
 33 
 
 No Certificates 
 
 71 
 14 
 
 Total 
 
 85 
 
 8827. (Chairman.) The summaiy of the table shows, 
 does it, that there were 85 cases of superannuation be- 
 tween the years 1891 and 1897, and of those 15 were 
 caaes of cataract, 23 were cases of defective eyesight, 
 
 ,,and 33 other diseases, and in 14 cases there were no 
 •certificates ?— Yea. "No certifi-cates " means that 1 
 ;iave not been able to find them at present. 
 
 8828. So that really, 38 cases out of 71 were cases 
 ■of cataract or defective sight? — ^Yes, and that is a very 
 
 "Striking table. 
 
 8829. (Mr. Curvyngliame.) The trade is divided into 
 4h)ree grooips apparently — bottle makers, blowers, and 
 ■igatherers? — ^Yes. A bottle maker osr finigher, then the 
 
 blower, who blows the bottle in the mtonld, and ihe 
 -gatherer is the person who collects the metal out of the 
 riumace. 
 
 ■ 8830. What are the proportions of the men em- 
 ployed ; how many are there of each kind ? — They are 
 "•equal in numbers. 
 419 
 
 8831. Has it always been so ; have they always been 
 pretty equal? — ^Yes. 
 
 8832. Do the three men work together in what is 
 called a chair?— Yes, a chair or group. 
 
 8833. If that is so, the table you have handed in 
 shows in a very remarkable way that the cataract 
 occurred almost entirely among the makers, and that 
 the blowers amd the gatherers do not get it much? 
 — That is so. 
 
 8834. Therefore, if the bottle makers, blowers, and 
 gatherers are about equal in number, it shows there 
 must be something very abnormal taking place in the 
 case of the makers ?— That is so. 
 
 8835. Why is it that the makers get cataract more 
 than the blowers and gatherers? — I can only account 
 for it by reason of their being exposed to the intense 
 heat and glare from the furnace. 
 
 8836. But the blowers and gatherers are exposed to 
 
 2 M 
 
274 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. A. 
 ^Oretnwood. 
 
 ,5 Mar. 1907. 
 
 it too, are they not? — The blowers are not exposed tc 
 it at all. 
 
 8837. But the gatherers would be, would they not ? — 
 The gatherers are exposed to it. 
 
 8838. Why do the gatherers not suffer from the 
 same thing ? I can und©rsta,nd why the blower 
 does not get cataract, because he is not near the 
 the furnace, but why does not the gatherer get cataract ? 
 — He may have it incipiently for a time and not know 
 it. Gatherers are employed from perhaps 17 to 21 
 years of age. 
 
 8839. Do the gatherers go on and become blowers 1 — 
 Yes. 
 
 8840. And then become bottle finishers. The reason 
 of bottle finisheirsi being affected is because they have 
 been longest in the trade, is it?^ — Yes. 
 
 8841. They could all of them protect themselves com- 
 pletely with "blue glasses, could they not? — It is not 
 so convenient to work with glasses as without, but I am 
 of opinion, and agree with Dr. Eobinson, that if they 
 wore glasses they would be a protection to the eye. I 
 am certainly of that opinion. 
 
 8842. And a complete protection ? The diflBculty is, 
 can yon claim that a disease should be put in the 
 sehedule which is preventable by using proper means ? 
 . — I could not say that glasses would be a complete 
 preventive of cataract and other eye diseases. And 
 there is an inconvenience in the men using glasses. 
 
 8843. (ProfessorAllbutt.) What is the inconvenience ? 
 - — Thei-e is inconvenience from sweating so much. The 
 sweat will pour oif healthy men, and run into their 
 eyes, and they cannot wipe them for the glasses. 
 
 8844. {Mr. Cunynghame.) But is there not now an 
 invention which enables glasses to be used perfectly, 
 however mnch the sweat—painting the glasses over 
 with a preparation ? — I do not know of that. 
 
 8845. (Professor Allhutt.) Have you tried very fine 
 wire grating instead of glasses? — No, "the wire would 
 
 rust, and would not answer. The spectacle frames 
 rust and even break. 
 
 8846. (Mr. Cunynghame.)' At any rate, it is ■mcon- 
 venient, you say ?-Yes, but they had better suffer in- 
 convenience than lose their sight, I admit. Dr. Walker 
 suggested to me to try lasin. I got permission to take 
 him throuo-h a works .several years ago to see the men 
 work. The men tried lasin, and it does answ-er lit 
 some measure in preventing condensation ot tne 
 vapour. 
 
 8847. It looks to me as if a case had been made out 
 for a special rule,, compelling the men to wear glasses 1 
 —I do not know about that. Tie lasin does not 
 prevent the sweat from running into their eyes, and 
 they cannot take off their glasses to wipe their eyes. 
 
 8848. The Secretary of State has power, you kpow, to. 
 make special rules, and hasi not a case been made out 
 here, if the men are doing what is a dangerous thing 
 for their sight, for a special rule, compelling theni to 
 wear glasses ?— Many of them do .not know when they 
 are stSfering until disease has set in. 
 
 8849. But would not it be wise to have a. special. rule 
 compelling them all to wear glsisses? — I could scarcely 
 answer that question in the affirmative. t 
 
 8850. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you mean that it is an 
 inconvenience or a disadvantage ? — It le both ; it is an 
 inconvenience and it is also a disadvantage. 
 
 8851. Do you mean they would earn less money !— No, 
 they would not earn less money, but the glasses might 
 give way, and cause them to injure someone in the'r 
 working.' In my proof I say I should suppose that 
 very seldom does a workman know that he is develop- 
 ing cataract. I worked at the furnace myself until 
 I wae 51 years of age, and I did not know that my 
 vision was defective for many years, and that I was 
 suffering from choroiditis and i-etinitis, until after I 
 commenced to wear spectacles for reading. 
 
 8852. From what you know now would you, ' if ' yoa 
 were beginning your life-work over again, wear spec- 
 tacles ? — ^Yes, I would. 
 
 TWENTY-NINTH DAY. 
 
 Monday/, 11th March 1907. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 Mr. HeXHT CtTNYXGHAME, C.B. 
 
 Professor Clifford Allbxttt, f.e.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Frank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. T. W. Stitart, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. T. W. 
 Stuart. 
 
 8853. (Chairman.) Are you the General Technical 
 Manager of the United Alkali Company? — Yes. 
 
 8854. Does your company manufacture a very large 
 varieiy of difierent chemical products? — Yes. ^ " 
 
 8855. In some of your works, for example, in some 
 processes carbon bisulphide is evolved, is it not? — 
 Yes. 
 
 8856. Do you ever have cases of men being poisoned 
 by that ? — 'No. We have had occasions where men have 
 been what is known as "gassed" by the accidental 
 leakage of bisulphide of carbon fumes, and immediate 
 measures are taken to get them into the fresh &ir and 
 run them about, and so on ; but we have had no fatal 
 case arising from it in any way. 
 
 8857. Bave you had any oases of m6n who are 
 gradually poisoned by working in that gas? — ^No. If 
 they show any symptoms of ill-health we send them 
 away to the country for a few weeks at our own 
 expanse, and when they return they come back to 
 
 their own jobs, and if we find they are not healthy 
 we remove them to another part of the worka alto- 
 gether. I have a photograph, of the worksy and when 
 we built them we took care to erect themin an exceed- 
 ingly breezy position on the upper reaches of the 
 Mersey, where there is constant exposure to fresh air, 
 so that the plant is all very open and exposed to 
 strong, fresh air from the Mersey ; in that way, instead 
 of bsdng confined, we have enjoyed, I am glad to say, 
 immunity from any death or ill-health) except as I 
 have described, where the men lare sent away and 
 return well after a short holiday. 
 
 8858. You are awarey I suppose, that iaindda-rulDber 
 works there have ieen 'oases- of such poisoflingr 
 although they are now exceedingly ; rare ?—rYes.- 
 
 8859. Do you see any o'bjection to scheduling poison- 
 ing by bisulphide to the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act?— None; except that it' would add too'ur expense. 
 
 8860. But if you never have any cases, it would no* 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 275 
 
 matter, would it?— I quite recognise your point. If 
 ■we have no oases you would naturally say, " You need 
 not be afraid." Of course it would increase the ex- 
 I t^ehse 'Qtinf company for insurance; but all I can 
 \«ay IS that we en]6y, I am glad to say, great iimmunity 
 from dsafch and- ill-heallsk. Th» only objection I see ta 
 it is that it would add to our expense. But your 
 ■ftttiswer to th'at would be, "You have no cases." ' 
 
 y8861. "Why should you insure against such risks if 
 ydu have no cases ? — That is another way of' looking 
 at] it, no doubt. 
 
 8862. With regard to dinitro-benzol, what do you 
 say ? — We have only been working at that a very short 
 time — only a few weeks — on a very small scale ; but 
 all \ these other gases we manufacture in gigantic 
 •quaiptitios, the largest in the world. 
 
 8863. Have you had any cases of ill-health tbrough 
 ■workdng dinitro-benzol ? — Not yet. We have only been^ 
 as I say, in operation a very short tiim© — a few 'weeks, 
 or a month or two at the outside. I think some of 
 "the lalfger manufacturers of dinitro-benzol will be aible 
 to igiv«i better evidence than I can. 
 
 88644 With referenos to sulphuretted hydrogen, have 
 jou haJi any oases of sickness ? — No. 
 
 ■88651 Or with chloTine? — ^No. 
 
 8863). Or nitrous fumes? — With regard to nitrous 
 fumes, I- can remember, during my forty-one years' 
 •experi snoe, two cases only of death from nitrous fumes, 
 aiisinj ! from the^ men going into cisterns on the tops 
 of tow ers to clean them out They contain a deposit 
 of siul] ►hate of lead, which is dried up with say?dust ; 
 the mwi go in there with india-rubber boots on, and 
 ■after tlte vitriol is run away they mix the deposit up 
 with saVdust, and so clean the cistern out. I have 
 known i\wo cases in, which men engaged in that work 
 went hoittie apparently perfectly well and died during 
 the nightV It is a very insidious gas. 
 
 8867. .idave you had instances of men who, without 
 ■Buffering fatally from exposure to' the gas, have been 
 incapacitaJbed by it ? — ^No. In all the cases where we 
 use nitroiis fum'Ss the nitrate of soda and sulphuric 
 acid are pint into the burners, where there is a draught 
 inward, so that when a man puts the substances in, 
 and the fjiimes are evolved, they go inwaird. It is a 
 very valuable gas, and therefore we take great care of 
 it. I hav« had no other oasts except those two I have 
 nientiynedl and that was many years ago. 
 
 8868. Ann those would be considered injuries, I 
 suppose, byX accident within the meaning of the Act! 
 —Yes, I thii^k they would. 
 
 8869. What's have you to say with,. regard ito hydr. 
 chloric acid fiimes? — I have had no cases. 
 
 8870. Or almmonium chloride fumes ?-^We only 
 manufacture [chloride of ammonium in our Bristol 
 works, and U wrote for a specdal report from oui 
 manager, whtP 'has bsen thirty-five years there, and he 
 says : " In. re#>ly to your inquiry respecting this manu- 
 facture, it haSj been in operation at these works, under 
 my personal Lupervision, for the last twenty-nine 
 years. AVe m^pnufacture about 2,600 tons of chloride 
 of ammonium W annum from the raw gas liquor pro- 
 duced at gaswcirks by the carbonisation of coal. About 
 SCO tons of thfe above-named quantity of chloride of 
 ammonium is Aonverted into S'al ammoniac ; that is to 
 »ay, the chlor/ide of ammonium is thoroughly dried 
 and got into / a conglomerate state, and afterwards 
 plaosi in iror pots lined with brickwork, and there 
 heated so as 1 ;o form a vapour of chloride of ammo- 
 nium, and the resulting vapour sub-limed on to an 
 iron dome covleTing the pot. During the whole of my 
 experience I hive never known any ill effects occur to 
 any 6i our workmen employed in either of these de- 
 partments, noAis there anything, so far as my expen- 
 eno3 goes, tha\ could lead to any such conclusion. 
 We have men at\present working in these <i«partnieiita 
 who have bteen oWstantly employed there for between 
 thirty and forty V^^- '^^^ ^""^ apparently in the 
 best of health, anM I see no r^asom^hy these depai^ 
 ments should nob \ amongst the healthiest m these 
 works.—Yourstruly\ William Wmdus. 
 
 , 8871., Do you have many cases of workpeople suffer- Mr T W 
 mgfroni bronchitis r— No. I have submitted to Mr. Stuart' 
 
 Elliott the statistics, from which you will see that the 
 
 bronchitis is not above the normal of ordinary occu{)a- H MaT^1907. 
 tions. — 
 
 8872. It varies very much; in some works there is 
 seven times as much bronchitis as in otheirs, I see?— 
 Yes; It is not specially a disease incidental to our 
 manufacture. 
 
 887i3. What do you say as to lung diseases? — Y'ou 
 will see from the statement that the average death- 
 rate runs to about 13'5, which is a very fair record. 
 
 8874. Do these figures show that in your works the 
 percentage of days on which men are unemployed 
 through sickness varies from 2.19 to 4.5?— Yes, I 
 should think that is probably the percentage of ail • 
 ments in works such as engineering works and others. 
 
 8875. (Profes^r. Allhutt.) How many m^n ih.ave you 
 had to send - into the country to. recover ? — ^I am. 
 sipeaking rfrom memory, but durima the time we have 
 been working ■witih cyanide of sodium ^ which is a 
 very deadly poison, of which we manufacture about 
 fourteen tons a week, if I were to , say from six to nine 
 or a dozen during the whole seven years I should' be 
 about correct. If you want the information accu- 
 rately, I can get it; for you. In connection with the 
 manufacture of cyanide of sodium, I might say that 
 the men appear to thrive for a time, and become well- 
 looking and healthy, but then, in the- course of time, 
 some of them — a very small percentage — become 
 poorly, and then we embrace- the opportunity of send- 
 ing them away for their health. We «re particularly 
 careful that men having abrasions or cuts, or men of 
 a poor physique, should not be allowed to work in 
 this department. When we commenced the manufac- 
 ture seven years ago, bi-sulphide of carbon and hydro- 
 cyanic acid being the important products of the raw 
 materials, we were in a state of great anxiety lest we 
 should have some terrible results as to ill-health and 
 death ; but, owing to the extraordinary precautions 
 we have taken and the perfection, of the plant, I am 
 glad to say ■that we have not had a single death, 
 except one which arose from an explosion ; it was not 
 caused by the inhalation of fumes, but due to the 
 impact of the gases producing an explosion. With that 
 exception, we have had no ill-health except such as 
 could be cured within a fortnight. As I say, we were 
 in a state of great terror to begin with, because 
 working with hydro-cyanic fumes is no child's play. 
 But now we manipulate hydro-cyanic acid fumes equal 
 to fourteen tons of cyanide of sodium per week, and it 
 gives us no anxiety. 
 
 8876. What is it used for? — The treatment of tail- 
 ings in gold mines in South Africa, and so on. 
 
 8877. So that it is your ojiinion that there is no 
 direct poisoning arising from the work itself ? — Not as 
 we work it. 
 
 8878. But while the scheduling of any one of these 
 diseases might riot affect you very much, it might not 
 be a disadvantage if applied to other firms, I suppose ? 
 — Clearly, whose positions are not so good as ours, 
 and who may not be perhaps so conscious of the 
 danger. 
 
 8879. So that there is that argument in favour of 
 scheduling it, is there not? — There is that argument, 
 I admit. 
 
 8880* (Dr. Legge.) How many men have you em- 
 ployed in the bi-sulphide of carbon department? — 
 Twelve. 
 
 8881. And in the cyanide of sodium department? — 
 Twenty-six. 
 
 8882. Are they constantly employed? — Yes. 
 
 8883-4. Have you a medical officer who examines the 
 workers periodically ?— Yes— riot periodically. We 
 have the local doctor in the village, who examines 
 them for us when we suspect they are ill. 
 
 8885. Do you think he would be able to give the 
 Committee exact information as to the symptoms pro- 
 duced by cyanide of sodium?— I am sure he would. 
 
 419 
 
 2 Ji 2 
 
276 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 !llr. James Bbattt, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. 
 Beatty, m.d. 
 
 11 Mar. 1907, 
 
 8886. (Chairman.) Are you the Medical Officer of 
 Health at Northampton? — ^Yes. 
 
 6887. And you aj-e good enough to come and tell 
 the Committee about the diseases which boot workers 
 suffer from owing to the employment in which they 
 are engaged. Taking finst poisoning by chrysoidine, 
 what do you say ? — I cannot give you any information 
 with regard to that. Poisoning by chrysoidine ha,s not 
 come under my observation to any extent. During 
 the years 1897 to 1904 I have only been able to find 
 four deaths from blood poisoning amongst shoe 
 workers, so that it does not appear to be a prevalent 
 disease. 
 
 It does not appear to be a usual cause of death, 
 but it might be a usual cause of incapacity, I suppose ? — 
 As regards that I have no information. 
 
 3. Coming to the question of phthisis, I think 
 some little time ago you prepared some statistics 
 showing the rates of mortality from various diseases, 
 and among them the boot and shoe workers of 
 Northampton, which were published by the Royal 
 Sanitary Institute ? — Yes. 
 
 8890. What conclusion do you draw from the statis- 
 tics which you collected? — I found that there was an 
 increased prevalence of the disease of phthisis 
 amongst boot and shoe workers, as compared with the 
 rate for the country generally. 
 
 8891. Are there any particular classes amongst those 
 workers who are specially liable? — Yes, I found that 
 clickers were especially liable. 
 
 8892. What work do they have to perform ? — When 
 the leather is brought in in the form of a hide that 
 has been just prepared, they have to cut up the leather 
 into the shape required for the uppers of the boots. 
 They have little patterns made of tin or other metal, 
 which they place on the leather, and run it round 
 with a sharp knife. They do this on a board, and at 
 the end of the operation the point of the knife catches 
 in the wood, hence the word "click." 
 
 8893. Why are they specially liable to lung diseases, 
 do you think? — I have heard two reasons given. The 
 first is that in their work they stoop a great deal. 
 They work, generally s.peaking, standing, and they 
 stoop over their work, which rather tends, of course, 
 to act on the chest and diminish its capacity ; and, 
 secondly, clicking is supposed to bfe, amongst boot 
 and shoe workers, the gentleman's -part of the work ; 
 it is supposed to be easy work, and work at which, as 
 a man put it to me, you could wear a collar. The 
 result is that the delicate one of the family is put to 
 that part of the trade. 
 
 8894. In fact, your idea is, is it, that a man does 
 not become delicate because he is a clicker, but that 
 he becomes a clicker because he is delicate? — In my 
 opinion, that is so. 
 
 8895. In your opinion, is the phthisis they contract 
 tubercular or fibroid ? — Tubercular. 
 
 8896. Do you get cases of fibroid phthisis? — ^There 
 are a few in the town, but as a general rule the cases 
 are the ordinary tubercular phthisis. 
 
 8897. The special form of phthisis in this place is 
 tubercular phthisis, is it? — Yes. 
 
 8898. With regard to lasters, they have a death-rate 
 from phthisis not very much less than that of clickers ; 
 at all events, a very high death-rate, is it not? — Yes. 
 Lasters are not a very well-defined class. In the earlier 
 part of my paper which I read before the Royal Sani- 
 tary Institute in 1905, I point out that I had to use it 
 as a sort of dumping ground for all classes of workers 
 I could not find a place for. Their work, therefore, 
 may be taken as representative of the shoe trade in 
 general in a manufactory, and, as you say, there is a 
 prevalence, but I think that is practically a prevalence 
 of the disease amongst shoe workers- in general of the 
 male sex. 
 
 8899. In the figures you give on page 586 of the 
 reprint before me, the mortality figure of phthisis 
 amongst shoemakers is 256, is it not?— Yes. 
 
 8900. Amongst lasters, I see, it is 320, and amongsc 
 clickers 391 ? — ^Yes. If you will turn to pag3 584 of 
 the paper you will see the actual death rates calcu- 
 lated. The death rat© for shoeworkers undoubtedly is 
 above the average as a whole, and it is more above 
 
 the average among male operatives than among female- 
 operatives. Male and female taken together bring thts-^ 
 figure down to 2.59. As I say, it is prevalent amongs' 
 shoeworkers, and lasters are practically a repre&intaj 
 tive class of shoeworkers ; but I could give no specie 
 reason in that cxse. 
 
 8901. (Mr. Cunynghame.) What is the general figu 
 of phthisis for the whole population? — On page 
 at the bottom you will find the figure, 2.08. 
 
 8902. (Chairman.) What is it amongst boot aW 
 shoe workers? — 2.59 for the whole number. I h^va 
 not -worked it oat for males separately. 
 
 8903. So that the rate in the trade is about 25 /par 
 cent, more than it is in ithe rest of the population ?- 
 If you notice, at the top of page 586, Dr. Tatham putst 
 it down as 38 per cent. 
 
 8904. If you were to take a selected class, saiy the, 
 clickers, would it be very much higher? — Tyes, it 
 would. I must remark, however, that my figui res are 
 comparatively small. On page 584 you will fint I I am 
 calculating in the extended borough from a h ody of 
 cUckers numbering about 1,500. 
 
 8905. And you only have among them forty '■ deaths- 
 from phthisis in eight years? — That is so. \ 
 
 8906. So that if there had happened to be i birty- 
 eight deaths it would very largely have affect* d the 
 figure? — Yes. I point out that the figures are to be 
 taken with some reserve on that account. I mui it eay,, 
 however, tihat the imjpression amongst those in lirorth- 
 ampton with whom I have spoken is that the»e is a 
 higher rate of mortality amongst clicker^ from- 
 phthisis. 
 
 8907. But since it is tubercular phthisis, in a/iy given 
 oase it is impossible to say whether or not thfe disease 
 is due to the employment ; it is not like dust/phthisis, 
 is it? — ^No, ithat is quite true. I have investigated a 
 great number of case®, and I find that in a [large pro- 
 portion of them a sufficient cause can be fouiid in con- 
 sumptive relatives ; that is to Bay, the diseasa^ would be 
 contracted at home. 7 
 
 8908. Bootmakers, having been engaged j rgneration 
 after generation in working in a confined sjpace with- 
 out very much ventilation, are perhaps/ specially 
 liable to chest diseases as a class ? — ^I shouk I think at 
 present thait is quite possible, but I majf say that 
 phthisis is diminishing with a fair amount/qf rapidity 
 in Northampton. 
 
 8909. Do you attribute that to improve/ients in the 
 methods of production or to a general /improvement 
 in the sanitary surroundings of the population? — To 
 both. Up to about fifteen years ago, D believe, the 
 boot trade was a home trade and it isj only within 
 recent years that it has become a faotoi-y trade. In 
 the home trade the people used to worjk in cellars, 
 where, of course, the ventilation was badA and in con- 
 nection with one of the processes the -Work involved 
 the use of gas stoves, or perhaps in ■tihose days oil 
 lamps. That would further vitiate thfe atmosphere. 
 At the present time, as a general rule,! they work in 
 large, fairly weU ventilated factories. I That is one 
 point. Then I do not think there can J be any doubt 
 whatever tha* the general improvemeiJt in the sanir 
 tary conditions throughout the -countr^' has also had. 
 an effect on Northampton. 
 
 8910. Supposing this disease were tdheduled for 
 compensiaAion under the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act, do you think it -would be possible in any given 
 case for any medical -man, or for a GoiVrt of Law, to 
 say whether or not a case of p'hthisis W^as due to the 
 employment ? — As distinguished from a /case of a con- 
 sumptive workfellow close by, do you ffiiean ? 
 
 8911. I wall say, was due to having been engaged 
 in that industry, (taking into aooounft all the circum- 
 stances of the industry. Of coursej; if the industry 
 makes the men speoially liable to iiifection, it might 
 be said the infection was due t-o/th© industry?— I 
 think it would be very difacult, gfcd I fail to see how 
 It could be done. As I say, --roiirkfellows do cause a 
 certain percentage of the oasefe. In 1905 I have 
 figures of ^ 124 cases investigai^d, and, with all our 
 investigations, we -could not $,nd in fifty cases more 
 than ten cases traceaible to w^trkfellows, and to work- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 277 
 
 places six, and that is only >a guess on our part, and 
 1 doubt very much if it could 'be stated definitely. 
 
 8912. Suppose any one of those men on the list 
 claimed compensation for having contracted phthisis 
 during his employment, would you be able in aur 
 pM'ticular ca«e to go into the witness-box and say, 
 " Yes, I am of opinion this man's phithisis is due to his 
 employment " ?— Yes, in one case I think I oould, sup- 
 posing the man had baen a finisher, because this part 
 of the business is the part which one would most 
 naturally expect to be productive of the disease 
 on account of the dust in it. In the finish- 
 ing process they put the sole of the boot over 
 an emery or glasepaper wheel, and rub ofi a 
 great deal of dust from it, with, of course, a 
 certain amount of brass filings from the rivets. 
 In that case, of course, there is a good deal 
 of dust produced, which is taken away by fans ; but 
 nevertheless a certain amount gets into the throats of 
 the workmen. If I found that in .a factory concerned 
 the dust was not properly taken oft and the men 
 developed phthisis, and I could not find any other 
 cause for it, I should be disposed to say that in that 
 case probably the disease had originated from the 
 man's employment, or that his lungs had been so 
 weakened that he was rendered liable to it. 
 
 8913. Those would be cases of tubercular phthisis, 
 and not fibroid phtlhiisis ? — Not fibroid phthisis. 
 
 8914. Oult of the 124 cases that you specially investi- 
 gated, of how many do you think you could say with 
 certainty in that way, " This man's disease is due to 
 his employment " ?— To none. I oould not say it with 
 certainty as to any of them, there is only a probability. 
 
 8915. In how many cases would you be prepared to 
 say it was probable ? — You see, that involves an in- 
 vestigation into the conditions of the factory, and 
 that, being a meddoal officer, I have not carried out. 
 If we get a complainit with regard to a factory, it goe* 
 to the factory inspector. In miany of the cases Where 
 want of ventilation is complained of I have investi- 
 gated them, ,and in my opinion t!he complaints were 
 not justified. 
 
 8916. I think you siaid there were six out of the 
 124 cases where the factory conditions were to blame ? 
 — The conditions were defective, but they were not to 
 blame for the disease. 
 
 8917. So ithat at the most would you say six out of 
 the 124 cases 'might have been due to the employment ? 
 — That is what I should say, exclusive of workfellows 
 causing it by infection. 
 
 8918. Could that ever be proved? — I do not thinl, 
 so ; I think it r-amains a guess. 
 
 8919. Out of those, are you able to say, with some 
 degree of certainty, that the disease was due to the 
 employment — ^say in four or two cases? — ^No, I am 
 not. 
 
 8920. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You referred to an average 
 mortality of 2.08 from phthisiis. — Thiat is the average 
 rate among males in the country generally. 
 
 8921. Very well, I will take it for males. The. 
 average is 2.08; the average derived from Table II. is 
 2.59, is it not?— Yes. 
 
 8922. The figure 2.08 would not be the figure for 
 sedentary occupations, would it? — No, for the entire 
 country. 
 
 8923. So that if you take the whole figure for the 
 entire country for sedentary occupations it would 
 much more approach the. 2. 59? — Yes. 
 
 8924. At the end of your paper you say: "I may 
 conclude by another quotation from Dr. Tatham, 
 which is in entire accordance with the figures I have 
 given you. He says : ' Although the contrary is gsner- 
 ally held to be the fact, shoemakers are shown, by the 
 figures now at our disposal, to enjoy a degree of health 
 which is at' least equal to that of the average working 
 man.'" Is that the general conclusion you draw?— 
 Yes, it is. 
 
 / 8925. (Professor Allluti.) One of your points I think 
 is that disease may be caused by tiie incidents of the 
 ffooupation ; amongst those inoidenrts have you found, as 
 a matter of practice, that the fans for carrying off the 
 dust have ntot been always in order 1 — Not always. 
 
 8926. As regards open windows, that is a very b*d 
 
 way of ventilating a building of the factory kind, is it Mr r 
 uotJ-Yes, itis, inmyopinion. BeaUy/u.u. 
 
 8927. That is defective construction, is it not?— My ,, ,; — re- 
 view IS that a place ought to be artificially warmed. ^^ ^^1907. 
 
 8923. As regards the Chairman's question concern- 
 ing a particular case of consumption and the causation 
 of It, your difficulty is the old difficulty of applyint 
 an average to a particular case, is it not ?— Precisely. 
 
 8929. Although you may be morally certain that 
 there is a very considerable element of industrial 
 causation, to apply this knowledge to an individual case 
 IS extremely difficult ?— Yes, there is this difficulty in 
 the matter that I have met with in Northampton. Sup- 
 posing the industry was mainly at the root of the 
 disease, what I cannot understand is, that those fac- 
 tories which appear from our statistics to have the 
 greatest number of phthisis cases among them are, 
 instead of being the ill-ventilated, small places, the 
 large now factories. That may be partly due to the 
 greater numbers employed in them, but on the whole 
 I think it is more probably due to an average dis- 
 tribution. 
 
 8930. The more men who are spitting about floors 
 and so forth in a room, the greater would be the pre- 
 valence of phthisis, I suppose? — Unquestionably. 
 
 8931. Its prevalence in men's workplaces, as com- 
 pared with women's, might be explained in that way,, 
 by their being more reckless in their spitting? — Yes,, 
 it is possible it may be so. 
 
 8932. Is any attempt made to stop expectoration ? — 
 Yes, we have issued posters to all the factories on the 
 subject, urging the men not to spit, and, in addition 
 to that, every case of consumption notified to me, or 
 known to me through the death returns, is investi- 
 gated, and instructions are sent out. I am informed 
 through the' Charity Organisation Society that our 
 work is beginning to tell in this way, that consump- 
 tives find it difficult to get employment, because other 
 people will not work with them. 
 
 8933. It is premature, I suppose, to ask you what 
 the effect is, but have you reason to believe the habits of 
 thj men are changing? — ^Yes, at any rate, there has 
 been a considerable r^uction in 1906 of the death-rate ; 
 whether that be due to our action or not, such is the 
 case. As a matter of fact, Northampton fell in the 
 1906 figures to one of the seven. large towns standing 
 lowest for the phthisis death-rate. Of course, it might 
 have been an exceptional year, but the number of 
 deaths fell off 20 per cent. 
 
 8934. You have no compulsory notification in the. 
 case of phthisis, but you have a voluntary system of 
 notification ? — Yes. 
 
 8935. Is there a good return under the system ? — 
 There was last year. We doubled it last year. Our 
 number of deaths last year was 81, and our notifica- 
 tions were 125. 
 
 8935. Voluntary notification may become still better 
 organised. Meanwhile you have no powers, I suppose, 
 to control the employment of a man with advanced 
 phthisis in a large clickers' room ? — No, you have not, 
 but under those conditions by preaching the doctrine it 
 will advertise itself. 
 
 8937. There are no differential signs or symptoms, 
 are there, by which you could select from a number of ' 
 cases of phthisis those in which the disease is pro- 
 bably due to the industrial conditions? — No, in my 
 opinion there are not. 
 
 8938. (Dr. Legge.) I believe in Manchester, with Dr. 
 Niven, you made a large number of examinations of 
 dusts which you collected ?— Personally, I did not ; my 
 colleague did that. 
 
 8939. Have you done similar work in the factories 
 and workshops of Northampton ? — I have not. 
 
 8940. (Chairman.) Have you analysed the figures of 
 death from phthisis in 1906 by trades ?— I cannot say 
 that those have been worked out completely yet. I 
 have the figures for 1905. I can only tell you that we 
 find clickers head the list in 1906, but the number of 
 deaths was only seven. 
 
 8941. Does the fall of 20 per cent, in the deaths from 
 phthisis over the whole town apply also to the boot 
 and shoe workers, do you think? — It does. 
 
 8942. But you cannot say yet whether the fall ia 
 greater than 20 per cent, amongst them ?— No. 
 
278 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. Rauch and Mr. L. Morrow (Members), and Mr. F. C. Tolhtjbst (London Branch Secretary), of 
 the Amalgamated Society of Lithographic Artists, Designers, Engravers, and Process Workers, called 
 
 Tolhurst 
 11 Mar. 1907, 
 
 and examined. 
 
 Mr. Uaiich, 8943. (Chairman.) Do you attend here on behalf of 
 Mr. L. the lithographic artists, designers, engravers, and 
 Morrow, and process Workers' trade union? — (Mr. Morrow.) Yes. 
 Mr F C 
 
 8944. Do your members suffer from any -particular 
 
 disease or injury from their occupation? — Yes, they do. 
 
 8945. What disease have you in mind? — T, person- 
 ally, have had nasty eruptions and irritations on my 
 hands and arms and head. 
 
 8946. To what do you attribute that? — Bi-chromate 
 of ammonia. 
 
 8947. What do you use that for? — ^In sensitising 
 solution in preparing plates for etching. 
 
 8948. Is that the only process in which it is used ? — 
 No, I believe it is also used in other trades. We only 
 use it in the printing and photo engraving. 
 
 8949. Do you suffer from poisoning from any other 
 chemicals ? — No, never. 
 
 8950. Do you attribute this rash which you have 
 described simply to bi-chromate of ammonia ? — Yes. 
 
 8951. What are the further symptoms ? — I have been 
 away from it about twelve months, but you can see it 
 under the skin of my hands now. Twelve months ago 
 you could see fifty or sixty abrasions on my hands, 
 and the skin came off, and my hands and arms were a 
 fearful sight. The first time I had it I had it fairly 
 severely. I went to the University Hospital at Gower 
 Street, where they seemed to treat it as eczema, but 
 the stuff they gave me did not seem to have any effect. 
 I then tried taking blood-purifying medicine and 
 greases at night, and I went to a doctor, and he 
 thought it was eczema, and treated me for it. The 
 salt in the bichromate seems to dry the skin. 
 
 8952. Are you prevented from working by it? — ^Yes, 
 I was last year, it was so bad. My hands and one arm 
 were in such a fearful state that I could not touch 
 anything. 
 
 8953. Do you find many others working in the trade 
 who suffer in the same way? — Yes. 
 
 8954. Have you any statistics to show how many 
 suffer in that way? — I have no official statistics, but 
 the majority of the men who are printers catch bi- 
 chromate ^poisoning. 
 
 8955. Do they get it again and again, or only once ? — 
 Once you get it you are always having it. 
 
 8956. You are liable to its recurring, are you ? — Yes. 
 
 8957. Does your trade union give sick benefit ? — ^Yes. 
 
 8958. After how long a period of incapacity can a 
 man claim sick benefit — after he has been off work 
 liow long ? — After he has been away from work three 
 -days he can claim. 
 
 8959. Have you any records of the diseases from 
 which the men who claim sick benefit are suffering ? — 
 (Mr. Tolhurst.) In all cases of applications for sick 
 benefit we receive a medical certificate, which fre- 
 quently does not state the disease. It only says that 
 a certain man of a certain name is unable to follow 
 his employment, and it is signed by the medical prac- 
 titioner. I went through the doctoTs' certificates, 
 which have to hi isupplied prior to sick benefit being 
 paid, and in a number of oases there is an omission 
 
 -oif statement of the disease. 
 
 8960. Of those which did ispeoify the disease, were 
 there' many that stated , itJhat fthe man was suffering 
 from this form of eczema or eruption ? — No. 
 
 896i. Were there any? — ^None of them quoted 
 "" bi-chronjate poisoning." 
 
 8962. Do> you have to handle this chemical ? — (Mr. 
 Morrow.) Yes. 
 
 8963. Would not it be possible to prevent it getting 
 on your hands? — I have tried using indiajrubbor 
 gloves, but they are very cumbersome ; the plates we 
 have to handle have to be handled rather delicately, 
 and it is almost impossible to work with gloves ; I 
 found I could not. I used as far as possible to avoid 
 getting it on my fingers at all in covering the plate, 
 but you nfit it into your hands when you ar3 develop- 
 ing. You have to place the plates in water, and you 
 must handle them a little while you are waihing them, 
 
 and although you might only get a very little of the 
 weak solution on your fingers, it seems to penetrate. 
 
 8964. Do the men usually come back to their work 
 after suffering from this complaint in a period of less 
 than some weeks ? — In my own experience it lasted five 
 weeks and three days, and then I went iback to another 
 branch. 
 
 8965. Are other men you know of usulally incapaci- 
 taited as long as that ? — I do not know of any man who 
 was incapacitiaited as long as thiat. They try and 
 doctor themselves and rub along, but their hands lare 
 in a frightful stabs. 
 
 8966. It is a well-recognised disease in the trade, is 
 it?— It is. 
 
 8967. And there is no doubt about its being due to 
 that particular chemical, and not to any other? — 
 No. 
 
 8968. Have you anything to add to wihat has been 
 said by Mr. Morrow ? — (Mr. Bauch.) I have had some 
 years' experience, and I think Mr. Morrow has stated 
 the thing very lightly. There have ibeen one or two 
 oases in Ameriwa wihere (total blindness occurred 
 through the disease, because it affects the system. 
 There is a case of a young iman, at present at work in 
 the Old Bailey, where the disease has broken out all 
 over his stomach, which is a very dangerous place. 
 He was away three months at Margate, and on his 
 return they had to put him into another department. 
 If you go to a medical man he lalways tells you you 
 must stop this branoh of the work. 
 
 8969. Have you yourself suffered from this disease? 
 — Yes ; I have still got the traces of it, and I think 
 more fully developed than Mr. Morrow. 
 
 8970. How long were you prevented from working? 
 — I was sent to the seaside, and was there for a long 
 time. The medical men seemed to treat the thing 
 only las a oorn'mon skin disease ; but the seaside is the 
 worst place for it, because all salt irritates it. 
 
 8971. How long were you prevented from working? 
 — On and off for about two or three months. 
 
 8972. What was the longes't period that you were 
 away from your work at one time ? — For about five 
 weeks. 
 
 8973. Do you know many men who have suffered 
 fir.oim similar complaints? — Yes. I cannot tell you 
 where they are now, because they have left the trade, 
 but I have known them have to leave it altogether. 
 
 8974. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Have you ever tried wax 
 and size — 'as a cure? — I have. 
 
 8975. Is it any good ? — ^Not much. 
 
 8976. Why is not it any good? — BeoaTise you have 
 your hands always in the water. 
 
 8977. It is warm water you develop iai, is it ? — ^No ; 
 cold water. 
 
 8978. Is there a constant flow of cold water, or does 
 the tank become very much discoloured in which you 
 are working ?-^(Mr. Morrow.) Th>3Te is a constant 
 flow. 
 
 8979. And even with a constant flow enough of the 
 stuff remains in it to damage your hands? — ^Yes; 
 because you keep on dealing with different iplates, and 
 you keep on drying your hands. Your hands are 
 perhaps • wet for five or , ten minutes while you are 
 developing. 
 
 8980. How does the bi-chromate get on to your hands 
 in developing ? For instance, you have a plate covered 
 with dry bi-chromate after being exposed ; then if you 
 take a dry plate it does not come off dry, does it ? — No. 
 
 8981. How does it begin to come off? Do you put 
 tha whole plate iiito the water ?— Yes. 
 
 8982. Then does the stuff flow over your fingers? — 
 Yes ; you put your hand into it. 
 
 8983. But if you were to dip the plate into the 
 Thames, with a mass of water going by, it would not 
 hurt you, I suppose?— No; it is not the one plate 
 which hurts you, it is the large number of plates con- 
 tinually passing through your hands. 
 
 8984. But if the stuff were diluted by a tremendous 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 279 
 
 rusih of water you would not get it, I suppose?— It i* 
 impossoible to minimiBe the effects. 
 
 8985. Ocmld not you hold the plates in a wire 
 holder, for instance, and dip them in that way ?— You 
 can small plates. PersonaUy I have put a latge plate 
 into a Bink, and let the water run on it. 
 
 8986. But I do not see why it is necessary in wash- 
 ing tlh'at you should touch it with your liands at ^U. 
 If you bad madhinery you could put it into a frame, 
 as Dt were, and let the water go on it, and not touch 
 It with your hands at aJI. That would be quite possible, 
 would it not?— I should think it could "be made 
 possible. 
 
 8987. (Professor Allbutt.) You are a worker, I under- 
 stand, m ibi-chromate ? — ^Ihave .been. 
 
 8988. And you have shown us' your hands ? — Yog. 
 
 8989. And, you say the eruption is due to that work? 
 — Yes. 
 
 {Note.— Dr. Legge and Profess.or Allbutthavine 
 
 examined Mr. Morrow's hands, find tlhe palml 
 
 especially the seat of old eczema. In examinino' 
 
 Mr. Rauch's hands they find GUiperficial ulceration 
 
 on Iboth the backs. aaid palms of the hands.) 
 
 , 8990. (frofesfioc AmuH.) Do you go so far as to 
 
 regard. this as universal, and to say that all the workers 
 
 have 'i.tl'^Mr. Morrow.) No ; a large majority of the 
 
 printers get. it. 
 
 - 8991. Do you think it might in part be due to the 
 continual wetting of the hands, even if there was no 
 salt in use ?r-r^No ; because in etching, . where we use a 
 lot of water, I have, never got it. 
 
 8992. Have you ever used any ointment of any kind 
 to keep the skin soft ?^I have. 
 
 8993. Has that bsen any advantage? — ^It eases them 
 a little. You generally get them a little better week 
 ends. 
 
 8994. Have you to wash your hands very much in 
 soap ?-^Yes, a good deal to keep them well cleaned. 
 
 8995. Do you use common soap ? — ^I have tried Cuti- 
 cura. 
 
 8996. Because there are superfatted soaps, which 
 -do not affect the skin so much ae common soap does. 
 J>oes, tihe oomplaint frequently extend to the armpit 
 in the way you speak of ? — Not with me. 
 
 8997. Have you often heard of it? — ^Yes. 
 
 3. And is, that the way in which a man is mora 
 usually quite incapacitated ?t- Yes. I have heard of 
 other people having abscesses right in the armpit. 
 
 8999. {Dr. Legge.) Has it ever affected the nose in 
 any of the cases you have heard of? — Yes, I did hear of 
 ;on© man who was so affected ; hui, it never was eo with 
 me. 
 
 9000." How was his nose affected?^ — {Mr. Itaueh.) 
 Ahnost the same as the breaking out on the arm. 
 It comes up first like a pimple, and breaks out in 
 Bores, which discharge water. I know a gentleman 
 now who has it all over his face. 
 
 ' 9001i, Are there fumes Tising up into the face, or is 
 • it part of the general breaking out which causes it? 
 Is there any smell from the process ? — We have ,tc 
 prepare the plates over a gas stove, and there is a 
 splash. There are no fumes, but there is always a 
 dust, when the plates are dry, and you are continually 
 bending over it. 
 
 Mr. L. 
 
 Morrow, and 
 
 Mr. F. 0. 
 
 Tolhurst. 
 
 II Mar. 1907. 
 
 9002. Then it is the dust that has the injurious m^ p„„^h 
 action, you think ?— Yes. j ^ «"» Mr. Kauch 
 
 n^^^\^^°^^ 7^^^ ^'^i*"' include -photographers ?- 
 \MT..Morr.ovj.) Yes. 
 
 9004. And is this stuff used largely in photography J 
 —Not with our photography. & i- J 
 
 9005. Does the general photographer use it?— I think 
 not. 
 
 9006. What is the number of the members of your 
 union ?-(Mr. Tolhurst.) There are 430 members in the 
 London branch and 1,500 in the society altogether. 
 The photographers in our craft are those whi start 
 with the negative. This particular branch is composed 
 of men who print on metal with a solution of bi- 
 chromate with fish glue, which is poured on the plate 
 and It rs important that the.plate should at once 
 be dried ; it is the use of the solution of bi- 
 chromate with fish glue which causes the result 
 described. I have used it myself, but only as part of 
 a technical education; but I assure you there are 
 cases which have directly come under our notice. 
 
 9007. How many out of that 1,500 are actually ex- 
 posed to this risk? — It would be only a percentage, 
 because there are so many .branphes embraced in that 
 number. The industry is yojing, and it is a growina 
 one. 
 
 9008. (CAairmqiTi.. ). Have , you any ,qther chemicals 
 which you use with reference, to which you wish to 
 give evidence ?— There is a list of dangerous chemicals 
 used in the process engraving, but there is no 
 evidence of serious trouble arising from them. The 
 acid fumes are undoubtedly injurious, though their 
 effects are not of so lengthy a character; and also 
 dusting operations are of a detrimental character ; but 
 they can be obviated very easily by having an up 
 draught over the dusting box. 
 
 9009. You do not find men being incapacitated for a 
 week or more through using, any of these other 
 chemicals, or through dust? — :No. 
 
 9010. Have you many of your members engaged in 
 work in dark rooms ?^Mr. Morrow.) Yes. 
 
 9011. Do you find that they are a -particularly 
 unhealthy or a healthy body of men ?^-No, they seem 
 fairly healthy, though they are all a little bit white- 
 faced; 
 
 9012. You do not find that they have to be away- 
 from their work' suffering from ansemia or other- 
 diseases, atributable to the dark room? — ^No. 
 
 9013. Do you agree to that?— (Mr. Bauch.) Yes. 
 
 9014. And. you also?— (Mr Tolhurst.) Yes. 
 
 9015. ,Ho^ many, of your members work, in the dark 
 rooms ? — I have not taken out the numbers. Our 
 membership is increasing, and the number engaged, I 
 should say, would be about thirty. 
 
 9016. 1 Would these be men working all day in the 
 dark rooms? — ^Yes ; their business would be in the 
 operating rooms. , {Mr. Morrow.) But they would not 
 be there all day ; they would be coming in and out. 
 
 9017. {Chairman.) But they would be there a large 
 part of the day ?-T-Yes. 
 
 9018. {Dr. Legge.) Do you use ammonium sulphide?' 
 — The operators use it a little. 
 
 9019. Do you notice any illjeffects from that at all ? 
 —No. 
 
 9020. Except, I suppose, that the smell is unplea- 
 sant?— -Yes. 
 
280 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 THIRTIETH DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, 12th March 1907. 
 
 VEUBEEB PBESEN'T : 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samuel, m.p. (^Chairman). 
 Mr. Heney Ctjntnghame, c.b. 
 
 Professor Oliffoed AiiBriT, f.e.s. 
 Mr. T. M. Leoge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Frank Elmotx (Secretary). 
 
 Professor Geoeoe Mueeat, m.a., h.d., f.e.c.p., called and examined. 
 
 IF. E.G. p. 
 12 Mar. 1907. 
 
 'Professor '9021. (Chairman.) Do you attend on behalf of the 
 Q. Munay, North of England United Coal Trade Association?— 
 M.A., M.D., Yes, I act as consulting physician to that Association. 
 
 9022. Are you Professor of Comparative Pathology in 
 the University of Durham and physician to the Royal 
 Victoria Infirmary at Newcastle ? — Yes. 
 
 9023. Taking first the question of miners' nystagmus, 
 have you had experience of cases of this disease ? — Yes, 
 both in the hospital and as consulting physician tO' the 
 Coalowners' Association. 
 
 9024. Are you of opinion that it is an occupational 
 -disease ? — Yee. 
 
 9025. Are miners specially subject to it? — ^The fre- 
 "•quency of the disease is not very great. 
 
 9026. Do you find it more among miners than amongst 
 -other people ? — Only among miners in my own experi- 
 ence. I am speaking, of course, of that special form of 
 
 >nystagmus known as miners' nystagmus. 
 
 9027. Do you also have nystagmus in connection with 
 ■ other diseases of the spine and nervous system ? — Yes ; 
 
 it is a symptom which occurs in various diseases of the 
 -nervous system. 
 
 9028. As a rule are you able to diagnose with some 
 ■ certainty miners' nystagmusi? — ^In a great majority of 
 
 cases, I should say, yes. 
 
 9029. Is there a margin of cases in which it is some- 
 what doubtful ? — Yes ; I have come across cases in which 
 it has been very difficult to come to a definite con- 
 clusion. 
 
 9030. With what other disease could it be associated P 
 
 ^In one particular case a man received an injury, and 
 
 a question was raised as to whether he had not a tumour 
 of the cerebellum, of which it is often a symptom, and 
 in that case it was rather difficult to determine. His 
 own doctor thought he had a tumour of the brain, but 
 as a matter of fact he was suffering from miners' nys- 
 tagmus plus certain results of his injury. 
 
 9031. Those oases, I presume, are very rare? — ^Yes, 
 they are uncommon. 
 
 9032. In the vast majority ol cases of miners' 
 -nystagmus is the fact that it is miners' nystagmus 
 .-fairly certain ? — Yes. 
 
 9033. The number of cases in different collieries 
 varies considerably, does it not ? — That is so. In 
 commg to that concludion one must allow a certain 
 amount for perhaps the difference in certain colliery 
 surgeons. Some of them seem to be able to detect it 
 perhaps more readily, and are more on the look-out for 
 it than others. For instance, at one colliery one 
 surgeon says that he does not come across it, whereas 
 another surgeon to the same colliery says he sees several 
 cases every year. 
 
 9034. Do you think that the lighting of the collieries 
 has any effect on the disease ? — ^I should think that that 
 would be a contributing cause ; but undoubtedly the 
 primary cause is the eye strain under which the miner 
 works. That is an expression of opinion. 
 
 9035. If a miner suffering from nystagmus is away 
 from his work for some time and is regarded as cured, 
 do you think the nystagmus is likely to return if he 
 resumes working iiva mine ? — That depends rather upon 
 what stage the disease is taken at. If it is recognised 
 
 very early, and the man works on the surface for, say, 
 six months or a year, he will probably recover; then 
 the risk of relapse is small. But I think if the disease 
 has gone on for a long period and then he recovers, the 
 danger of a relapse is greater ; and one's usual advice 
 to a man is to give up underground work altogether if 
 possible. 
 
 9036. Can you give any idea of the percentage of 
 miners in your district affected with nystagmus ? — ^I am 
 afraid I have no figures to go by. 
 
 9037. Would it be less than 5 per cent., do yoa 
 think ? — ^I should say less than S per cent. ; I do not 
 know that I could get much nearer than that. 
 
 9038. {Professor Allbutt.) From evidence which we 
 have heard, and which I think you support, it appears 
 that there is no direct relation between the amount of 
 nystagmus and the degree of incapacity? — ^Not neces- 
 sarily. 
 
 9039. It cannot be expressed as a direct relation ? — 
 No. 
 
 9040. That is to say, you cannot say the more the 
 nystagmus the more the man is incapacitated? — ^No, I 
 do not think one can say that. 
 
 9041. You cannot, for instance, translate what you 
 see in a man's eye into the terms of his working 
 capacity ? — No ; one may see a man with well-marked 
 nystagmus of which he is unaware himself. 
 
 9042. Therefore you have to rely really, as regards 
 the headache, giddiness, and impairment of vision, on 
 the man's own testimony ? — Yes. 
 
 9043. Do you think a man in whom nystagmus had 
 been very evident for some time, but who had hitherto 
 made no complaint, might suddenly begin to suffer 
 from headache, giddiness, and impairment of vision, or 
 is he a tough sort of man who never would suffer thus ? 
 — ^I should say he would be apt to develop those 
 symptoms. 
 
 9044. So that we are brought again to depend entirely 
 upon his own testimony ; and if a man is disposed to 
 malinger in nystagmus it would be very difficult to dis- 
 prove his assertions? — ^Yes. 
 
 9045. As regards the prevalence of the disease in 
 various collieries, do you think that the thickness of the 
 seams makes much difference? — We tried to oome to 
 some conclusion about that, but we could get no facts. 
 They seemed to point a little way to the fact of the 
 thinner seams being a little more the cause of the dis- 
 ease. 
 
 9046. So that there would be nothing in that to help 
 you much? — No. * 
 
 9047. Can you help the Committee to decide whence 
 the headache, giddiness, and impairment of vision come, 
 seeing that they are not constant? Might it be due, 
 for instance, to some co-operating neurasthenia? — I 
 think that is quite possible. In some cases I have 
 seen it associated with miner's nystagmus. 
 
 9048. Is neurasthenia common among colliers? — Do 
 you mean spontaneous, so to speak, or after an 
 accident ? 
 
 9049. Apart from accident is it prevalent among 
 colliers ? — I should say it was. I see a number of cases. 
 
 9050. {Dr. Legge.) In those cases where you notice 
 that a man has got marked nystagmus, but who has not 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 281 
 
 complamed of th© symptoms of headache, giddiness, 
 and impairment of vision, do you think it is deeirahle 
 that the man should be suspended from work ? — Yes ; 
 I should say that is the right treatment for it. 
 
 9051. Are any steps taken to suspend men who shoiW 
 nystagmus without complaining of the symptoms?— I 
 think, as a rule, not. If a man makes no complaint he 
 does not come under medical supervision ; in fact, some 
 men if they know of it rather hide if and do not 
 complain of it. 
 
 9052. Colliens who would be suspended in that way 
 would not be incapacitated in any way from work of a 
 different kind, would they ? — No ; they could quite well, 
 many of them, do good work on the surface. 
 
 9053. Is there plenty of choice of work for them above 
 ground? — That is always a great difficulty in mining 
 districts. One often sees cases where they are in- 
 capacitated from hewing coal but are capable of doing 
 lighter work ; but there are very few situations open 
 to them ; it is practically full work or no work ; and 
 it a man has work above ground he receives a much 
 smaller wage, so that there are very few situations 
 open for them. 
 
 9054. Nevertheless, are you of opinion that those who 
 show marked nystagmus, even without complaining of 
 symptoms, should be suspended ?— They should, speak- 
 ing from a medical point of view, to prevent the disease 
 going any further. 
 
 9055. {Professor Allbutt.) Why ?— Because I think 
 that at a later stage they very likely would be in- 
 capacatated by the development of further symptoms. 
 
 9056. (Chairman.) What form does the disease take 
 if it reaches its utmost severity ? — A man complains of 
 the symptoms of giddiness, he is apt to stumble some- 
 times, and objects may appear to move, and he may 
 have a difficulty in seeing in badly illuminated places. 
 
 9057. And he would be prevented doing any kind of 
 work, would he ? — No ; he could work in a good light, 
 on the surface. 
 
 9058. Do you ever get the disease going so far that a 
 man becomes almost blind ? — No, I have never seen 
 that. Then I take it he would be in a position to claim 
 compensation for being prevented doing his work 
 underground. 
 
 9059. Do you think it would be difficult tO' check a 
 man's statement if he said that he was incapacitated 
 from working by nystagmus ? — Very difficult. I think 
 it would depend almost entirely on his description of 
 his subjective sensations. 
 
 9060. (Professor Allbutt.) That is, w© have mere nys- 
 tagmus and nystagmus plus subjective symptoms? — 
 Yes. 
 
 9061. On suspension, might a man lose his subjec- 
 tive symptoms, and although the nystagmus — which I 
 
 suppose is incurable in itself, is it not ? — No ; it 
 
 is curable if taken early. 
 
 9062. By rest, he might get cured of the^ subjective 
 symptoms, and become capable of working again, 
 although the nystagmus continued ?— Yes ; but I take it 
 his own doctor would advise him to remain on the sur- 
 face so long as nystagmus remained. 
 
 9063. Even though he might have ground for suip- 
 posing the man's nervous system was restored ? — Yes. 
 
 9064. (Chairman.) Is it possible to imitate the 
 symptoms of nystagmus ?— It has been done, I believe, 
 in one or two instances, but it is so exceptional and so 
 difficult to do, that I think you may count that as being 
 quite out of the question. JMight I call attention to the 
 great difficulty in fixing the length of time of work 
 which produces this disease. Apparently, as far as 1 
 know, it does not develop under several years work 
 underground, probably not under five years as a 
 minimum, and there is great difficulty in fixing the 
 responsibility of what period of work has brought it on 
 if a man has worked for different employers. 
 
 9065. Do you think five years is a minimum period ? 
 —Yes, speaking roughly. I should say that in some 
 cases a man may work for ten years before showing any 
 symptoms at all. 
 
 9066. (Professor Allbutt.) If a man becomes subject 
 quickly to nystagmus, do you think he is more likely 
 to have the subjective symptoms?— I should say, yes, 
 as a matter of opinion only. 
 
 6067 If a man did not suffer from nystagmus for a 
 long time afxer his entering upon the occupation of a 
 
 419 
 
 collier, it would be an argument oo far, perhaps, Professor 
 against his being likely to have the subjective symp- G. Murray, 
 toms. Let us suppose a man to have been fifteen or ir.A., m.d.,' 
 twenty years at work before the nystagmus appeared, f.r.c.p. 
 
 other things being equal, would he be less likely to 
 
 have subjective symptoms than a man who contracted '^ ^^°'^- '907. 
 it after five years' occupation ? — I could not say that. 
 
 9068. You have no practical guide as to that 7 — No. 
 
 9069. (Chairman.) With reference to the inhalation 
 of gases, we can put aside, of course, cases in which 
 accidents occur, in which there has been sudden poison- 
 ing ; but with regard to gradual poisoning by carbon 
 monoxide or any other gas in a mine, have you bad 
 many cases under your notice ? — I have not seen that 
 occur. I cannot say that I have seen any results from 
 repeated inhalation of small doses of gas. 
 
 9070. Do you know whether they occur ; have you 
 ever heard of them at all ?— Practically I do not think 
 they occur. Carbon monoxide is not ordinarily pre- 
 sent in a mine ; it is only after an explosion. 
 
 9071. If the ventilation is defective, and the men 
 breathe foul air, do you ever get cases of men who 
 suffer from illness and are incapacitated from work ? — 
 It is quite of short duration. 
 
 9072. Does it ever last for a week ? — No, I never 
 saw it. 
 
 9073. (Mr. Cunynghame.) If you include chronic 
 monoxide poisoning, people working in a factory or 
 room where there was gas might claim also. Milliners, 
 for instance, working in a room where there was gas 
 burning at night, might also suffer in the same way, I 
 suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 9074. Taking chronic monoxide poisoning, would a 
 miner be more exposed to that danger than a milliner 1 
 — -I should say not so much. 
 
 9075. (Dr. Zegge.) The symptoms you describe as 
 " loss of colour, weakness, and giddiness " suggest that 
 possibly in some of those cases the men were handling 
 explosives of Roburite or negro powder or some other 
 powder. Do you know if those powders are used in 
 your district at all ? — Yes, Eoburite, I think is. 
 
 9076. It contains dinitro benzol, does it not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 6077. Have you ever come across cases showing 
 symptoms of dinitro-benzol poisoning ? — No ; in fact, 
 I have only seen one or two cases where the men 'have 
 attributed their symptoms to inhaling fumes, but in- 
 vestigation has proved it to be some ordinary com- 
 plaint. 
 
 9078. Do you notice any change in the lips, for 
 instance, and instead of their being red they are blue 
 or ashen grey ? — No, I have seen no such cases. 
 
 9079. (Chairman.) With regard to phthisis, have you 
 many cases of fibrosis of the lungs in your district? — I 
 should say none now, no true case of what is called 
 miners' phthisis. 
 
 9080. Used it to be at all prevalent in Northumber- 
 land and Durham ?— Practically, I think, never at all 
 prevalent. Cases used to occur I believe, but cer- 
 tainly before my day. 
 
 9081. You have never come across any cases ? — No, I 
 have never seen a case of real miners' fibrosis of the 
 lung. One's experience is that coal dust does not cause 
 fibrosis of the lung. It is not an irritating dust at all ; 
 it is quit© different from stone dust. 
 
 9082. I believe you have some statistics you would 
 like to place before the Committee ?— Yes. I want to 
 point out how remarkably free miners m our coalfield 
 are from phthisis of any kind. In Dr. Tatham's table 
 for 1897 taking the mortality of males occupied, the 
 figure for phthisis is 100, and among coalminers of 
 Northumberland and Durham it is only 51. 
 
 9083 What is the figure for respiratory diseases ? — 
 From an article also written by Dr. Tatham, the mor- 
 tality in Northumberland and Durham was 94, as com- 
 pared with 115 among farm labourers. 
 
 9084 And how many in occupied males generally ?— 
 221 So that miners are remarkably free from tuber- 
 cular phthisis— which is the only kind of phthisis w© 
 see in miners with us. I may mention that it seems 
 to me that in the question of " miners' phthisis a diffi- 
 culty is created by using the word " miners, ^ without 
 defining the particular kind of mining. For instance, 
 in Cornwall the disease is due to the inhalation of stone 
 dust a very different thing to the inhalation of coal 
 
 dust. 
 
 9085 Are the coal seams clean coal in your dis- 
 
 2 X 
 
282 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Professor 
 G. Muiray, 
 M.A., M.D., 
 
 F.R.C.P. 
 
 12 Mar. 1907 
 
 trict, or is there stone mixed with them at all? — I 
 should say as a rulo they are clean coal ; certainly 
 clean from a surgical point of view, because if the coal 
 dust gets into a wound it does not contaminate it in 
 any way. 
 
 9066. The men are not working in stone dust a« 
 well as coal dust ? — Only to a very small degree, prac- 
 tically not at all, I should say. 
 
 9087. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do you know anything 
 about ganister phthisis ? — ^No, I have not come across 
 
 that. 
 
 9088. {Chairman.) With regard to beat hand and 
 beat knee, have you had experience of cases of those 
 diseases ? — Those are two things which, personally, I 
 do not see very much of ; they come directly under the 
 notice of the colliery surgeons. 
 
 9089. Do you think it is difficult to diagnoso them 1 
 —It is not difficult to diagnose them, but the occupa- 
 tion of a miner is not the only cause. A man. might 
 contract it by using a spade in his garden, and it might 
 be contracted by rowing a boat ; a man gets a blister, 
 it bursts, he gets it infected, and acute inflammation 
 occurs. 
 
 9090. About what proportion of beat hand among 
 colliers should you say was due to their occupation ? — 
 I should say a large majority. 
 
 9091. It would be only a small minority which would 
 be due to gardening, for instance ?— Yes. 
 
 9092. Could you tell me the rasult of any inquiry 
 into any cases of beat hand and beat knee ?•-— Seventy- 
 siz reports were received from sixty-two collieries in 
 the county of Durham, and in thirty-one beat hand 
 was stated to be of frequent occurrence, in thirty-three 
 to be fairly common or occasional, and in twelve to 
 be rare. In no case was the condition unknown. In 
 twenty reports of beat knee it was stated to be unknown 
 and in twenty-four to be rare. In twenty-one it was 
 found to be fairly common or occasional, and in only 
 eleven was it stated to be frequent in occurrence. The 
 true beat knee is practically an inflamed bursa, analo- 
 gous with the condition known as housemaid's knee. 
 The bursa becomes enlarged from kneeling, and may 
 
 become inflamed. A man may get a small piece of 
 coai into his knee and get inflammation, but that, I 
 believe, might be called an accident. 
 
 9093. Do you ever get cases of beat elbow P — I should 
 say myself that they did occur, but I think some of the 
 other witnesses are more familiar with the matter than 
 I am. 
 
 9094. {Dr. Legge.) Is beat hand due to contraction.'' 
 . — No, it is a more acute condition ; it is practically aji 
 acute septic inflammation. Men who liave been off 
 work for some time and go back to work are apt tO' get 
 a blister, and it may get infected with dust or dirt. 
 
 9006. Is that the universally accepted view of it in 
 your district? — It is a question of degree; there are 
 some cases, I believe, which are looked upon as chronic. 
 
 9096. But there must be a suppurative inflammation 
 to begin with, in your opinion ? — Yes. 
 
 9097. (Chairman.) Do the hands always suppurate ?— 
 As a result of the inflammation practically there would 
 be suppuration, yes. 
 
 9098. But it would be beat hand if it did not sup- 
 purate, I suppose? — Yes, there might be simple in, 
 flammation ; there are majiy degrees of it. 
 
 9009. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Then it is not acute imlesg 
 there is some infection; it is a microbe, is it."" — Yes; 
 the microbes are probably on the man's hand. 
 
 9100. Engineers get the same thing, I suppose, do 
 they not? — Yes. 
 9101-2. They get inflamed woUnds from oil, and soon ? 
 
 —Yes. 
 
 9103. (Br. legge.) Supposing it were Dupuytren's con- 
 traction, do you think that should be regarded as beat 
 hand and give rise to claims for compensation ? — ^No, I 
 should say not ; I should say that would put it in a 
 difierent classification. I should say the acute condi- 
 tion might fairly be considered the result of the occu- 
 pation ; the other might be the result of disease. 
 
 9104. Would you like tO' see the word " acute " used 
 in the definition of beat hand? — Yes, I should. 
 
 Mr. Thomas Goodall Nasmtth, m.d., d.sc, d.p.h., t.b.s.e., oalled and examined. 
 
 Mr. T. G. 
 
 Nasm-yth, 
 
 M.D., D.Sc, 
 
 B.P.H., 
 
 F.R.S.E. 
 
 9105. (Chairman.) Are you Medical Officer of Health 
 for Fife, Kinross, and Clackmannan-shiree ? — Yes. 
 
 9106. Do you attend here at the request of th» 
 Mining Association of Great Britain? — Yes. 
 
 9107. Were you for 15 years a colliery surgeon ? — Yes, 
 I was colliery surgeon for about 15 yeans. 
 
 9108. Are you Examiner in Public Health of the 
 University of St. Andrews ? — Yes. 
 
 9109. Do you consider that there is any disease 
 peculiar to the occupation of a coal miner? — No, I do 
 not think there is any peculiar or special disease. 
 
 0110. Do you think they suffer specially from any 
 kind of lung trouble ? — On the contrary, I think they 
 suffer less than general workmen. 
 
 9111. Have you any statistics on that point? — Yes. 
 With regard to pulmonary phthisis, in my second 
 annual report to Fife County Oonncil, written in 1892, 
 I dealt with the subject of phthisis in relation to miners, 
 and wrote as follows : — " Having been engaged in prac 
 tice for many yeaars in a district very much given to 
 coal mining, I was put in a position of being able to 
 judge if phthisis or any other diseases was specially 
 liable to occur in coal miners, and to obtain all the 
 information possible I prepared statistics for a period 
 of fifteen years, showing the death rates from phthisis 
 in males and females. I also got all the information 
 possible from the numerous benefit societies in the 
 neighbourhood, showing what were the most common 
 forms of illness from which miners suffered, and these, 
 with the information I derived from my daily practice, 
 gave me ample opportunity of judging what connection, 
 if any, existed with the occupation of coal mining and 
 diseases from which coal miners suffered. At the pre- 
 sent time I shall deal only with death rates, but before 
 doing so some reference is needed to collateral circum- 
 s1;ances, which must be taken into account before com- 
 ing to any decision in the matter. The parish with 
 regard to which the statistics were calculated contains 
 about 6,401 acres, of which about 56 are under water. 
 He surface alternates with ridges, valleys, and plains. 
 
 and the general declination is to the south and east. 
 The contour lines run from 300 to 700' ft. The mea- 
 sures are principally limestone and coal. The soil is 
 generally clay, and is cold and wet, and the whole 
 parish is open and exposed to cold north ajid east 
 winds.'' I mention these facts to show that this was 
 a parish which was rather liable from the climate 
 and condition of the soil to phthisis. " The male popu- 
 lation is much in excess of the female. In the whole 
 county there were at last census 110 females to every 
 100 males, while in this parish there were 114 males to 
 every 100 females. The industry of the parish is 
 mainly coal mining, and this explains the preponderance 
 of males over females. 
 
 9112. (Professor Allbutt.) Is, the population of that 
 district especially liable to bronchitis or other 
 respiratory diseases? — Yes, it is. I gave statistics of 
 deaths from phthisis in the parish of Beath, which is 
 a very large mining centre. Briefly the conclusions 
 were for 1876-80, the male phthisis death rate was very 
 low — lower than for females, contrary to other places. 
 The male phthisis death rate was .824, and the female 
 rate .915. 
 
 9113. (Chairman.) How many deaths were there? — 
 I do not think I have the numbere. Tho'se are simply 
 rates. From 1881 to 1885 the male death rate was 1.0, 
 and for females 2.097. From 1886 to 1890 the male 
 death rate was 1.1, and the female 2.1. The mean age 
 at death of miners in these three five-year periods were 
 46.3, 46, and 47. Another table which is appended was 
 significant of the immunity that miners have against 
 phthisis, and showed that from 1876 to 1880 the per- 
 centage death amongst minei-s from phthisis to all 
 other persons was 42 against 57 in the first five years, 
 22 against 77 in the second, and 18 against 81 in the 
 last. The summaay is that from 1876 to 1880 the mean 
 male death rate from phthisis was .8, and for females 
 was .9. For the next five years it wasi 1 for males, 2 for 
 females, and for the third five years it was 1.6, against 
 2.1, showing that phthisis, according to general ex- 
 perience amongst miners was very much less than 
 amongst the females. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 283 
 
 9114. At the census of 1871 there were only 1,900 
 males and 1,600 females in the parish P-Yes, 
 
 9115. Therefore if two people died' of phthisis among 
 tlie males it would be a death rate of 1 per 1,000?— It 
 IS calculated per thousand. 
 
 9116. If in any givien year two people died you would 
 have a death rate of 1 per 1,000 males, and if three 
 happened you would immediately increase your deati 
 rate by 50 per cent., because the figures are so small P— 
 Yes, that is so. But I can give you figures drawn over 
 a very much larger area, the Registrar-General's 
 figures for England ajid Scotland. Those figures are 
 usually calculated for the decade ; they were published 
 in 1899, for instance, by Dr. Newsholme, Dr. Ogle 
 Registrar-General for England, in his report for that 
 year points out that coal miners have a surprisingly 
 low mortality except in South Wales. Then in the last 
 book, that published in 1902, the authors say the 
 exemption of coal miners from a heavy phthisis mor- 
 tality is specially noteworthy, and is believed to. be due 
 to the stringent regulations which have resulted in good 
 
 ' ventilation in mines, to the slightly irritant nature of 
 carbon particles, and possibly to an actual deterrent 
 eiffect of the carbon on the life and activity of the 
 tubercle bacillus. Then Sir John Simon, formerly 
 Medical Officer of the Privy Council, also drew atten- 
 tion to the fact that coal miners enjoyed particularly 
 good health. 
 
 9117. Is it your opinion that coal dust is not a lung 
 irritant ? — I am perfectly sure about that, because 
 it is not irritant even to an ordinary wound. 
 Colliery surgeons know quite well that extensive wounds 
 full of coal dust heal readily, and they are not followed 
 by tetanus or lockjaw, or any of those nervous afiec- 
 tions which are liable to occur in. a wound which has 
 been fouled by impure matter. 
 
 9118. Have you ever come across a case of fibrosis 
 of the limg in a coal miner? — Thirty years ago we used 
 to see them, but mostly amongst the older men. 
 
 9119. Do you attribute the disappearance of the 
 disease to the better ventilation of the mines ? — Yes, un- 
 doubtedly, and especially by the introduction of fans, 
 and also to the different methods of illumination. 
 They are mostly illuminated now with electricity. They 
 only used to be illuminated by oil lamps, which created 
 a very vitiated atmosphere. 
 
 9120. Turning now to beat hand, can you easily 
 diagnose that complaint ? — ^Yes, it is easily diagnosed. 
 I do not know that it is a characteristic disease among 
 miners, because any (person who uses a shovel, a pick, 
 or a malleit with soft hands is liable to suffer in the 
 same way. 
 
 9121. Do you find it amongst farm labourers ? — Yes, 
 amongst any persons with comparatively soft hands ; 
 a man who has been off work for a while using a tool 
 where there is a good deal of friction will get it. 
 
 9122. Does it occasionally incapacitate a man for 
 more than, a week ? — I do not think more. 
 
 9123. Not for a fortnight ? — Not to my recollection. 
 
 9124. What do you say as to beat knee? — ^Strange 
 
 ^n lZ'^} ^^^t ^x^T "^^ ^^P^ienoe of that whatever: I 
 do not know that I ever saw a case of beat knee. I was 
 
 nfwl ^.,^fT°J °^ ^'^^g^^ i« Edinburgh the 
 o her day, and asked him if he had had any explrience 
 of it amongst miners, and he said " No." 
 
 rufjv^;^^^?!.*''® ^^"^^ f"^"^ ™ *he collieries in your 
 district ?— They are of all kinds. 
 
 knell ?1-Ye8^^* ""^^ ^* ^^^"^ "^"""^ sometimes have to 
 
 9127. And yet they never get beat kn€e?-I have 
 seen very few cases of it. 
 
 9128. You have seen some cases ?— I have, but it is 
 not at all common. 
 
 9129. How long would that incapacitate, if it 
 occurr«i, at the most?— A severe case might keep a 
 man off work for a fortnight. 
 
 9130. Do you ever have cases of beat elbow?— No 
 1 have not seen many cases. Now and again vou se^ 
 It, caused more by a man hittijig his elbow rather than 
 by resting on it. I do not think in our district they 
 Have to he so much on the side as they have in other 
 places. 
 
 9131. (i>r. Legge.) Are all the cases of beat hand 
 acute that you have seen, or do you know of a chronio 
 form ?— I do not know of a chronio form. 
 
 9132. (Chairman.) With reference to nystagmus 
 have you come across many cases of that in miners?-^ 
 You see it occasionally, but I do not think it is so 
 common as it was. I think, with better illumination 
 it IS not so common, but it certainly does occur 
 amongst miners. 
 
 9133. Does it incapacitate them from working alto- 
 gether ?^No. 
 
 9134. Does it never incapacitate them ?— Not in my 
 experience. It may be worse in places in Eingland, 
 but from, my personal experience I have never seen 
 a man incapacitated from work by it. 
 
 9135. If a man comes to you suffering from nystag- 
 mns, do you order him not to work at mining ?--I am 
 entirely out of practice now. I am Medical Officer of 
 Health, and have no practice, so I cannot speak as 
 to that, but I oertanly know if he goes off work for a 
 certain length of time the man gets better. 
 
 9135. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Nystagmus is a disease, 
 is it not, that takes a good miany years to acquire — 
 perhaps twelve or fourteen years ?i — Yes, a man may be 
 employed years before it comes on. 
 
 9137. The disease is the effect of a good many years' 
 occupation, and not a thing rapidly acquired? — ^No, 
 it is sometimes congenital, and occurs amongst ricketty 
 children and people suffering from brain Sections. 
 
 9138. (Professor Allbuit.) But that would not be 
 miners' nystagmus, would it?— It would not, and the 
 difficulty then would be to discriminate betwen miners' 
 nystagmus and that which was congenital. 
 
 9139. But surely the history of the case would guida 
 one ? — Yes, but I suspect the miner in such a case- 
 would want to be associated with his occupation. 
 
 Mr. T. G. 
 
 Nasmyth, 
 
 M D., ij.sc, 
 
 D.P.H., 
 
 F.R.S.B. 
 
 12 Mar. 1907. 
 
 Mr. Antkew Smith, m.d., called, and examined. 
 
 9140. (Chairman.) Do you attend here at the request 
 of the North of England United Coal Trade Association 1 
 —Yes. 
 
 9141. Are you in medical practice now ? — Yes. 
 
 9142. Whereabouts? — ^At W^ickham, in the County 
 of Durham, four miles from Newcastle. 
 
 9143. Have you had long experience as a colliery 
 doctor? — Yes, and I am still doctor for several col- 
 lieries. 
 
 9144. Have you ever oome across cases in which men 
 suffer from gradual poisoning from gases ?! — No, never 
 at all ; I have never met with a case in which a man 
 'has been really disabled from chronic poisoning. 
 
 9145. Not even for a period of a week ? — No. I may 
 say that now colliery managers are very strict in re- 
 quiring medical certificates when a man is off work 
 for even a few days. I keep a counterfoil of the cer- 
 tificates, and I do not think I have ever in all my 
 experience written a certificate to the effect that a man 
 is off work owing to chronic gas poisoning. 
 
 9146. Do you find cases in which the men repre- 
 419 
 
 sent themselves to be suffering from it ? — Very rarely ; 
 
 they sometimes <!ome complaining of general symptoms ^T/ -^• 
 
 of debility and general malaise, and say they have "" "^"'' ^- D- 
 
 been partially poisoned, generally owing, however, 
 
 to the veoitHation not being all right. 
 
 9147. What has been your judgment inl those cases 7 
 — You certainly could not prove it ; it would be just 
 as easily explained by errors of diet or other things — 
 dyspepsia, and so forth. 
 
 9148. With reference to miners' phthisis, have you 
 had cases under your observation ? — Only the one men- 
 tioned in the report, which I have handed in, which 
 occurred twenty-five years ago. The man was elderly, 
 he had worked in the mines all his days, and pre- 
 sumably at a time when the mines were less thoroughly 
 ventilated than they are now. That is the only case 
 of phthisis, as distinguished from ordinary tubercular 
 phthisis, that I have met with in all my experience. 
 
 9149. Have you made any post-mortem exaoninations 
 of the bodies of miners who have died of phthisis? — 
 No, I do not think I can say that I have. 
 
 9150. Do you regard a case as tubercular phthisis 
 
 2 N 2 
 
284 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. A. 
 Smith, M.D. 
 
 12 Mar. 1907. 
 
 simply in which, tubercle is present, but in which there 
 may have been iibrosis also, and fibrosis as an ante- 
 cedent condition ? — I think one could always detect 
 cases of iibrosis as distinct from tubercular phthisis, 
 with tliis exception, that while I have not seen fibrosis 
 among miners, I have seen a fairly large number of 
 cases of true fibrosis, and in nearly all those cases 
 when the sputum has been examined tubercular bacilli 
 have been found. 
 
 9151. Nevertheless, you would regard it as a case of 
 fibrosis ? — Yes, I believe nearly all cases of fibrosis 
 become tubercular. 
 
 9152. In what occupations have you met with it? — ■ 
 The last case I had was a man whose occupation was 
 drilling holes in brass and steel at Elswick Works. 
 He caught tubercular fibrosis, limited to one lung, but 
 the report from the College on the sputum I sent 
 was: "A few tubercle bacilli." That man was at once 
 knocked ofE work, and practically recovered, but now 
 h© is beginning to get rather ill again,! believe from 
 the tubercular affection. 
 
 9153. Do you consider that fibrosis in miners is much 
 rarex than it used to be? — It practically never occurs 
 in my experience. 
 
 9154. You say practically ; what do you mean exactly 
 by that 1 — It absolutely never occurs, which means that 
 I have no maji suffering from a true fibrosis in mind. 
 
 9155. Do you find the death rate from phthisis 
 among colliers less or more than it is among the rest 
 of the population? — Distinctly less. In a colliery 
 population it is less among males than among females. 
 
 9155. Do you think that miners suffer at all from 
 other diseases of the respiratory system? — Not out of 
 proportion to other workmen. 
 
 9157. Do you think that coal dust is not a lung 
 irritant ? — I do not think so ; in fact, I should be in- 
 clined, from my experience, to say that it has really 
 the opposite effect, judging by the experience we have 
 in the trea.taiient of wounds inflicted in collieries. They 
 heal remarkably well, scalp wound especially of the 
 most iSever© character ; even lacerated wounds one has 
 no hesitation in stitching up, and they nearly always 
 heal rapidly. There is a non-liability to irritation, 
 and coal dust seems rather to act as an antiseptic. 
 
 9158. Do the miners in your district, in getting the 
 coal, have to drill or hew into rock as well ? — I do not 
 know ; I think there is a special class of men — stone 
 men— who do that apart from the miners, but of course 
 that will come under mining. 
 
 9159. Hiey would inhale particles of stome, I suppose ? 
 — I do not know that there is so very much stone, but I 
 have not been down a pit much ; I believe it is more 
 clay. 
 
 9160. You do not find any forms of lung irritation 
 among that class of men ? — No. 
 
 9161. (Mr. Cunyngliame.) You said there was a man 
 who had phthisis from dust from drilling. I do not 
 quite understand how dust can be produced by drill- 
 ing? — I do not quite understand it. 
 
 9162. Then you do not commit yourself tO' drilling 
 being the cause, do you, because it does not produce 
 (Itist? — Quite so; it means this, that I got a case of 
 fibroid phthisis, which, on the whole, is rai-e ; I investi- 
 gated the case, the man explained to me the nature of 
 his work, and told me there was a good deal of dust in 
 liis occupation. 
 
 9163. (Bt. Legge.) In that particular case did you find 
 the diagnosis easy ? — Quite. 
 
 9164. And if you had a large number of such cases 
 would you consider in a different way from that of 
 miners' phthisis the question of including them within 
 the schedule of the Act ? — I think fibrosis of the lung 
 of that kind, produced by the irritation of, say, 
 metallic dust would be quite easily distinguished, and 
 would be certainly an industrial disease, having regard 
 to the nature of the work in connection with metallic 
 dust or irritating dust of that kind, but, as I say, in 
 most of the cases, as they advance they become infected 
 with tubercle. 
 
 9165. The man you saw, who was affected with a, 
 little tubercle, was affected the first time you saw him, 
 I suppose ? — ^Yes, still I had no doubt myse^lf that the 
 essential disease in that lung was the fibrosis — the fine 
 crepitation over a large area of the lung. 
 
 9166. Had you ever seen any post-mortem on a case 
 of fibrosis of the lung? — Yes. 
 
 9167. "WLere was that?— I have seen it in my own 
 practice occurring after a bad case of pleurisy. I re- 
 member making one post-mortem in which the lung 
 tissue was to a very large extent replaced by a develop- 
 ment of fibroid tissue. 
 
 9168. Did you see cases, when a student in Edin- 
 burgh, of fibrosis of the lungs, which helped you to 
 diagnose this particular case ? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 9169. (Chairman.) With reference to nystagmus, have 
 you come across some oases of that among miners? — 
 Yes. 
 
 9170. Are they frequent? — No, I see about two or 
 three a year. I tried to make an estimate, and I think 
 I gave a figure in my proof. As far as I could niake out, 
 I reckon quite 02 or 0-3 per cent, of the miners en- 
 gaged in the work suffer from nystagmus. 
 
 9171. Sufficient to require them to have medical treat- 
 ment ? — Yes. 
 
 9172. But I suppose there are a very considerable 
 number of men who suffer more or less slightly from 
 it who do not come to a doctor? — That is a doubtful 
 point, and one cannot speak as to that. 
 
 9173. Do you think any difficulty would arise in dis- 
 tinguishing miner's nystagmus from other forms of 
 nystagmus ?^ — No, I do not think so. 
 
 9174. If you knew the history of the case you could 
 tell it?— Yes. 
 
 9175. Do you regard it as an industrial disease? — 
 Yes, I should call that essentially an industrial 
 
 9176. Do you consider that it would be difficult to 
 t-3ll whether a man was really incapacitated or not ? — 
 I should take up this position. I am only speaking 
 ae the doctor consulted, and if a man came to me and 
 I discovered either from symptoms or examining his 
 ©yes that he has nystagmus, even in the slightest 
 degree, which I believed to be miner's nystagmus, I 
 would consider it my duty as his medical adviser to 
 urge ihim to cease work at once, not because he could 
 not go on with it, but because I know he would prob- 
 ably get worse, although he might feel quite capable 
 of carrying on his work, and feel no inconvenience from 
 it. 
 
 9177. Is that your practice now ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9178. What would happen if he did get worse? — The 
 nystagmus would simply go on getting worse, and 
 sooner or later he would become incapacitated. 
 
 9179. From any kind of employment? — ^It might be 
 if it were allowed to continue. 
 
 9160. What would be the symptoms in the worst 
 case you have ever come across, or are they always 
 cured? — Generally, but I have seen cases fairly evi- 
 dent in which the man complained not of defect of 
 vision in the true sense, but giddiness, and a feeling 
 as if the objects he was looking at were moving. He 
 has no personal feeling of the movement in his eye, 
 but objects he is looking at appear to be moving. 
 
 9161. Do you think the symptoms could be simu- 
 lated? — The symptoms might, but the movement of 
 the eye, which you can detect for youi-self, cannot. 
 
 9182. If a man is apparently cured and goes back to 
 work in a mine is he liable to relapse ? — That is the 
 general opinion, but I have known cases taken early 
 in which a man has gone back to' work after an interval 
 of six to twelve months, and I have not found a relapse, 
 or at all events, a relapse to the extent that he could 
 not continue his work. I_ know men now who are 
 working as regular coal hewers who were under treat- 
 ment for nystagmus five or six years ago. 
 
 9183. Are they now quite well? — They are doing 
 their work. They do not come back to me, so I cannot 
 guarantee that a careful examination would not reveal 
 nysta,gmus, but certainly I can say they have recovered 
 sufficiently to resume work, and remain in health. 
 
 9184. How long a period does it take for a man to 
 develop nystagmus ? — 1 do^ not know that I have seen 
 any case under 30 years of age, and as most of the 
 miners that we have have commenced work in the 
 mines as boys, I should say, at all events, a minimum 
 of five or six years, and very few cases under ten years' 
 work in the mines. 
 
 9185. (Mr. Cunyrighame.) Then according to your 
 view it would be impossible for a man to malinger 
 nystagmus P — ^I should think so. 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 285 
 
 9186. {Professor Allbutt.) He could not malinger the 
 aiystagmus, but ho might malinger the incapacity, I 
 -suppose ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9187. Is there any direct relation between the degree 
 of the nystagmus and the consequent incapacity ? — No, 
 I do not think there^is, it comes on very gradually. I 
 am afraid in most cases of nystagmus the incapacity is 
 
 .caused by the advice of the doctor. 
 
 9188. In what percentage of cases of nystagmus is 
 there also an incapacity for work? — I do not think I 
 .have actually incapacitated a man from work as 
 medical adviser for more than a week or ten days at any 
 time, but that is, of course, because I have always 
 iichanged his work, or always advised him to get work 
 above ground. 
 
 9189. Incapacity is not invariable, is it, even in. bad. 
 •oases of nystagmus ?— No. 
 
 9190. Can you give the Committee any idea of the 
 f)ercentag6 of incapacity in definite cases? — If you 
 mean incapacity from regular work as a coal 
 "hewer, I should say a fourth part of the cases that on© 
 -sees would not be able to resume coal hewing again, 
 but then w© make them incapable because we think 
 .-it would be to^ their detriment to continue at that kind 
 <oi work. 
 
 9191. From the workmen's point of view, if on© in 
 four of cases of nystagmus is accompanied by inca- 
 ■(»acity, is it quit© equitable, do' you think, to the three 
 who would not become incapacitated to be ordered off 
 •work? — They are practically all capable of other work 
 in the mine. 
 
 9192. At much lower wages? — Yes, presumably so — ■ 
 working on the bank. 
 
 9193. Might not you be too solicitous ? — You mean 
 you might allow them to continue at work? 
 
 9194. Yes. Do you think you have any criterion by 
 which you yourself can form an opinion whether a man 
 ■is not merely nystagmic, but j-i also incapacitated, or 
 •mSist you gO' entirely by his subjective symptoms? — 
 "I am afraid I have not gone sO' much through the sub- 
 jective symptoms, because, honestly, a good many men 
 have been very much distressed when they have been 
 -told they should cease -their work, feeling that they are 
 "not incapacitated from doing it. But these are cases 
 in which, after going to work at another form of ©m- 
 ■ployment on the bank for a matter of six months, th©y 
 "have been able to resume th© coal hewing, and have 
 continued at that coal hewing, to my knowledge, for 
 'four or five yeana, without again coming under treat- 
 ment. 
 
 9195. What would be the effect of giving compensa- 
 iiion, do you think? — ^If compensation were paid for 
 nystagmus it is not likely that men who are incapaci- 
 -tated by the doctor in the early stages, and who 
 apparently recover, would car© to resume coal hewing 
 again while th© recovery might b© complet«. 
 
 9196. (Chairman.) What is your experience with 
 regard to r©cov©rieei from nystagmus? — That when 
 taken at an early stage, from six to twelve months ces- 
 ■sation of underground work results in such complete 
 Teoovery that coal hewing can be resumed. 
 
 9197. Have you bad many cases of that kind within 
 your knowledge?—! have bad a number of cases. If 
 you think w© see only two or three cases in a year, 
 -going back twenty years on© does not see a very large 
 number but I have seen a fair number of cases m 
 which recovery has been so complete that the men 
 have been able to resume work. 
 
 9198. (Professor AllbxM.) Miners' nystagmus alone 
 •causes a very modified disability, does it?— When I 
 •used the wird " modified," I mean it may cause 
 ■disability from coal hewing, but not disability trom 
 other work at th© colliery. 
 
 9199. (Dr. Legge.) Can you tell us how maaiy nien 
 vou suspend in the way you describe every year <^— 
 i)o you mean advised them to cease ooal hewing and 
 ^et other work ? 
 
 9200. Yes?— Two a year. 
 
 9201. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Out of how many?— Out 
 ■flf 600, I should think. 
 
 9202. (Br. Legge.) Do you think, from conversation 
 ■>(rith other medical men in the district, that what you 
 do might be interpreted as their action also 7— Yes, i 
 ■should think so. 
 
 9203. {Mr. Cunyrvghame.) Do you think the number Mr A 
 of cases would be increased if compensation was given I Smitli m i. 
 — les, that IS probable. ' ' 
 
 9204. What would the figure 2 out of 600 become ^^ Mar. 1907. 
 
 then?— I do not think it woidd be increased under 
 
 those conditions if they do not come knowing they; 
 
 have nystagmus. It is we who find it out. 
 
 9205. But still they might come knowing a little 
 more if it became a scheduled disease, might they 
 not ? — Quite so. 
 
 9206. But you do not think it would become a 
 formidable number, I understand?—! do not. The 
 milder forms of nystagmus are often unquestionably 
 not detected unless one is on the look-out for them. 
 You do not always get the oases in the early stage, 
 but recovery would be almost certain in a short time, 
 and there is a very great difference in the diagnostic 
 skill of the doctors consulted with regard to the dis- 
 ease. You will find practising in the same district 
 one man :say he •will see two or three cases out of 500 
 or 600 men, and another doctor will say " I have never 
 seen nystagmus." The fact is they do not look for it. 
 
 9207. When a man recovers and goes back he is 
 nearly sure to get it again, is he not ? — ^Yes ; but, as 
 I tell you, I have met •with a very fair proportion of 
 cases in which it has not returned. 
 
 9008. {Chairman.) Do you have many cases of beat 
 hand com© to you?— -Yes, that is quite common. 
 
 9209. Is the diagnosis of that quit© easy ? — Quite. 
 
 9210. How long does the disability last ? — If diag- 
 nosed promptly it might recover in a few days simply 
 with rest. If it has gone another stage, and suppura- 
 tion has really commenced, prompt treatment again 
 will probably get th© disability over in a week or ten 
 days. It is only •wiien it is allowed to fully develop 
 that you get serious mischief from it. 
 
 9211. Have you had any cases in your knowledge in 
 \^ich compensation has been paid under th© Work- 
 men's Compensation Act for beat hand ? — Yes. 
 
 9212. Where it has been regarded as an accident 1 — 
 Yes. 
 
 9213. Has there not been a recent case in th© Law 
 Courts in •which it was decided not to be an accident? 
 —Yes, I believe so. 
 
 9214. With regard to beat knee, do you have many 
 cases ? — No, they are very rare. 
 
 9215. But cases do occasionally occur ? — OcoaBionally. 
 
 9216. And beat elbow?— Yes, I have met -with it 
 more often than beat knee, but they have always been 
 regarded as accidents to the elbow from knocking 
 against the side in the work. 
 
 9217. Do you never have a case of a man who has 
 been working in a very confined position, and by con- 
 tinually knocking his elbow, gradually contracting this 
 affection ?— No, I do not think so ; there has generally 
 been an accident associated -with th© cases I have seen. 
 
 9218. Does "generally" imply always?— It ainounts 
 to that. It 'has always been' regarded as an accident. 
 The men in such -cases have reported to their deputy, 
 and the certificate I have given is that they are suffer 
 ing from suppuration of the elbow (we do not call it 
 beat elbow), and compensation has been invariably paid 
 by the collieries I have had to do with. 
 
 ' 9219. Is beat elbow always accompanied by suppura- 
 tion ?— Yes. 
 
 9220. Is there any less colloquial term than beat 
 hand, beat kn&e and beat elbow which would describe 
 these ailments ?— Bursitis of the knee and elbow, and 
 septic inflammation or suppuration of th© palm of tHe 
 hand. 
 
 9221 Is suppuration an invariable symptom of beat 
 hand ?— Of a developed beat hand, but if taken at a 
 verv earlv stag© recovery may take place without 
 suppuration— it means that th© inflammation which 
 Should othorwise end in suppuration has been arrested. 
 
 9222 Mifht not you get a case of a man suffering 
 from beat hand for a fortnight, say, without suppura- 
 tion ?— No. 
 
 9223. Never?— No. 
 
 9224. (Dr. Legge.) Do you get cases of chronic con- 
 tractions of the hand ?— No. 
 
286 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. Aunold James Greene, u.b.c.s., l.u.c.p., called, and examined. 
 
 Mr. 9225. (Cftairman.) Do you attend here at the request 
 
 A. J. Greene, of the Mining Association of Great Britain ? — ^I do. 
 
 L.K c P ' 9226. Are you surgeon at the Wigan Infirmary? — 
 
 ' I am Assistant Honorary SurgeoTi. 
 
 12 Mar. 1907. 9227. And Medical Advisf r to the Northern Bm- 
 ployers' Mutual Indemnity Company? — ^Ye®. 
 
 9228. Have you had many cases, or any cases, under 
 your notice of chronic poisoning amongst miners by 
 gases ? — No, I have never seem a case of chronic 
 monoxide poisoning. 
 
 9229. Or by any other gas or bad air in mines? — 
 No ; not a chronic case. 
 
 9230. Have you any reason to think such cases occur ? 
 — ^No, not at all. 
 
 9231. With regard to fi.brosis of the lungs, have you 
 come aicross any such cases amongst coal miners ? — ^No, 
 I have never seen a case. 
 
 9232. Have you ajnongst any other classes of work- 
 people? — No, I have never seen a case of chronic 
 fibrosis. 
 
 9233. Have you attended any ganister miners or 
 potters ? — No, I have not. 
 
 9234. With reference to nystagmus, is that in your 
 opinion an industrial disease ? — Yes, I think it is. 
 
 9235. Is there any difficulty which you would wish 
 to draw ihe attention of the Committee to if this 
 disease were scheduled for the purposes of compensa- 
 tion? — ^The difficulty would be in knowing in which 
 employ a man got the disease. It takes some years to 
 develop; and he might get it in one employment, and 
 go to another ; there he might be getting better by 
 working under different conditions, but it might be 
 found out, and then he would claim compensation for it, 
 no matter where he contracted it. 
 
 9236. How long do you think it takes to develop 
 nystagmus ? — ^Years ; I could not say the time, but over 
 five years. 
 
 9237. Have you ever had cases of men suffering from 
 nystagmus who, after working for some time in the 
 open, have been cured, and then have gone to work 
 again as coal 'miners, and have not had any relapse ? — ■ 
 I have seen cases where the men get very much better, 
 but we always say if a man has had minier's nystagmus 
 he should not go down the pit again. But they do go 
 down again. 
 
 9238. If they do go down again, do they invariably 
 ■ get worse? — Under similar conditions they get worse 
 
 again. 
 
 9239. Do not you have cases of men who recover by 
 abstention from employment in the mines? — ^The ob- 
 jective symptoms may disappear, but whether they 
 oome back again by going down the pit in every case I 
 do not know ; I should say th^ would, without aj 
 doubt. 
 
 9240. They always do, do they? — I would not say 
 always, but generally. 
 
 9241. What do you consider are the symptoms of 
 miner's beat knee? — Beat knee, I take it, is a chronic 
 bursitis, which is the ordinary miner's knee, but then 
 you might get another condition, that is an acute con- 
 dition brought about by a scratch or poisoning. I 
 think the two things should be separated. 
 
 9242. With regard to beat hand, what symptoms do 
 you get ? — Practically the same as in beat knee. 
 
 9243. Have you ever had any cases, under your 
 notice of beat elbow? — Yes, I have. 
 
 9244. Are the symptoms there the same? — Just the 
 same. 
 
 9245. In your opinion, does beat elbow arise from 
 accident, or may it arise gradually from continuous 
 employment 1 — It may arise in both ways. First of all 
 you may get a chronic bursitis from continuous 
 pressure ; secondly, you may get this chronic con- 
 dition acutely inflamed from injury ; or without the 
 chronic condition in the first instance you may get an 
 acute beat elbow, beat hand, or beat knee, as the case 
 may be, from injury followed by septic poisoning. 
 
 9246. You would not say that every case of beat 
 elbow was necessarily the result of an accident, would 
 you. .P — No, I should not. I think there are two condi- 
 tions, one is chronic, the result of continuous pressure, 
 
 and the other may be due to an accident in which sk. 
 scratch admits bacillus, and sets up inflammation. 
 
 9247. Do you ever get cases amongst miners of dila^ 
 tion of the heart? — No, I do not within the meaning; 
 of this inquiry. Of course, you may get enlarged, 
 heart in any man of over 40 years of age. 
 
 9248. What is your general view with regard to sche- 
 duling this disease under the Workmen's Compensation- 
 Act ? — I think the occupation should be scheduled witb. 
 the diseases, and if that is not done I think there will 
 be a lot of litigation. 
 
 9249. {Mr. Cunynghame.) At what age does! a miner 
 generally become unfit for work, and discontinue it ? — 
 It varies a great d6al. I have seen a man working in 
 tlie collieries 80 years of age, and there lare many work- 
 ing at 70. 
 
 9250. What is the average P— I should think 60' 
 years of age. 
 
 9251. Then from a pecuniary point of view, it would- 
 be rather an advantage for a man to get nystagmus in- 
 his 59th year, would it not, because he would get £1 
 a week, being the difference between what he could' 
 earn below ground and what he could ©am above, and^ 
 he would retain that sum ? — Yes, it would be practically- 
 a pension for him. 
 
 9252. (ProfessorAllbutt.) You have published already 
 the evidence you have given us to-day, I think, have 
 you not ? — Yes, I sent it to the " Lancet." 
 
 9253. You say you have never seen any cases of 
 chronic monoxide poisoning ? — No. 
 
 9254. And that it is open for anyone who might be- 
 brought in contact occasionally with small quantities^ 
 of this gas, to say that he was suffering from chronic- 
 carbon monoxide poisoning, although he may be suffer- 
 ing from a drinking bout or some other condition whichi 
 might bring about a lowered condition of general 
 health ?— Yes. 
 
 9255. But I understand you have not seen cases? — 
 No. 
 
 9256. Them, on what ground do you make that state- 
 ment P^Because those are the recognised symptoms 
 of chronic carbon monoxide poisoning. 
 
 9257. But you are not an expert, I understand? — 
 No. 
 
 9258. Have you ever seen a case of fibrosis of the 
 lungs and chronic pneumonia? — No. 
 
 9259. Then how can you make a very positive asser- 
 tion that the lines of demarcation are too shadowy" 
 to enable one to swear positively ; you admit you are- 
 not an expert on that sulbject? — ^No. 
 
 9260. Surely those are strong opinions to publish:, 
 in anticipation of this interview, in the "Lancet," by- 
 one who is not an expert on the subject, are they not?* 
 — Possibly ; but nevertheless correct. 
 
 9261. {Dr. Legge.) With regard to the treatment of 
 miner's nystagmus, and the prohibition from work 
 below ground of any man who shows symptoms of it,, 
 do you know on whose authority that is recommended^ 
 — who are the ophthalmic authorities who have laid it 
 down that no miner who shows symptoms of nystagmus- 
 should go into a pitJ^ — Mr. Lloyd Owen, the Senior- 
 Con&uliting Ophthalmic Surgeon at Birminghain,^ 
 advises it. 
 
 9262. Do you know where he has published the state- 
 ment ? — No, but I have seen him about it, and we have- 
 had a report from him. 
 
 9263. Do you ever see any chronic contraction of the 
 hands like Dupuytren's contraction in miners ? — I have- 
 seen one or two oases of Dupuytren's contraction iit. 
 miners. 
 
 9264. Would you call that beat hand ?— No, I should: 
 not. 
 
 9265. Do you think that the process must be acute ? 
 - — No, it is very chronic. 
 
 9266. But to be either beat knee or beat hand, dO' 
 you think the process must be an acute one ? — ^No, not 
 necessarily. I think chronic bursitis may be beat knee 
 like housemaid' s( knee ; that might be a beat knee, or 
 on the top of it you might get an infective condition, 
 which probably would be more likely due to accident. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 287 
 
 ■ ^.^4** .'^°* ,^^^^ understand yet whether chronic bur- 
 sitis IS to be called beat knee. 
 
 9267. I am asking you whether you think the term 
 .aoutei ought to be applied J-I shooild call it acute or" 
 
 chronic beat hand or beat knee, aa the case might be. 
 
 9268. An ordinary houeemaid's knee -would not inoa- 
 jjaci^teat all, would itP— No, but a person might claim 
 
 it did. I have had colliers oome to me with chronic 
 -bursitis who say they cannot -work. 
 
 ' 9269. But the ordinary housemaid's knee can be 
 «oured, can it not, without diflSculty P — It can be cured 
 
 c^lferfi^n' .'"i.* '* t *P' ^ ''''''' otherwise, and some j^, 
 coiuers will not undergo any operation ; , ffiey will not a in 
 
 ' cteTnr '^^'''Sto them. There is o^ one c^rtafn ^m E cT"^' 
 cure for a chronic bursitis of the kne^i e., excision l r c p 
 Rlr^^i yff ?^ P^i^t them and so reduce them but -^^' 
 
 of b«;f ^ ^ T\ \° ^'^y '^ *^** ^hexe are two forms 
 
 pt beat hand or beat knee, one chronic, which I think 
 IS not due to^ accident, and the other acute, which S 
 Z: ^.^^ chronic form will not prevent a man from 
 working, the acute form does. I should not SZ 
 compensation m the first instance, but should in the 
 
 Mr. Thomas Ratcmffe Ellis, called and examined. 
 
 9270, {Chairman.) Are you a solicitor and Laiw Clerk 
 ^d,S<^retary ^o the Mining Association of- Great 
 Britain ? — I am. 
 
 , 9271. : Do you attend here on their behalf ? — ^I do. 
 
 9272. Have you heard the evidence of the four 
 rjnedical men whom the Committee have ea;amined this 
 : jnomiag ?— tYes. 
 
 9273. Have, you anything you wish to add to that 
 ^evidence with reference to any of theeo particular 
 -diaeasee?-T-No, I! have nothing to add beyond what I 
 suggest in my proof. 
 
 ■9874. -What is your view with regard to the onus 
 jprobandi being placed on the employer in cases of indus- 
 trial disease? — When the section was first introduced in 
 the Bill the intention was, I think, that an industrial 
 <iieease should be put on the same footing as an acci- 
 dent for compemeation purposes, and that two things 
 were necessary : one was that there should be a- certi- 
 ficate given by some official that the man was suffering 
 from the disease, and, in the next place, that it should 
 be proved that it was due to the nature of his employ- 
 ment. Of course, the first would be proved by the 
 •oertificate, the second by the man himself. As he 
 would have to prove an accident he would have to prove 
 ■that the disease was due to the nature of his. employ- 
 ment. Then in its progress through the, House, sub- 
 clause 2 of clause 1 of section 8, was introduced into 
 "the Bill, putting on the employer the obligation to dis- 
 prove that it was the result of his employment if he 
 was suffering from a disease which was opposite' in the 
 ■schedule to the particular process or enlployment. 
 
 9275. My recollection is that that was in the Bill as 
 introduced ? — ^I was under the impression it was not so, 
 but no donbt you are right. Then I think there are 
 -diseases, speaking from what I have heard from the 
 medical men, where the very strong presumption is 
 that they are due to the nature of the man's employ- 
 ment. For instance, ankylostomiasis. The obliga- 
 tion to disprove that it is due to the employment 
 should be on the employer. But in other diseases 
 I ■think it is only fair- to. the employer that the onus 
 prohandi should be' on the workman, as it would be in 
 the case of an accident. Then I suggest if you cannot 
 al-ter the section ij^ order to relieve the employer from 
 that obligation, it is a question whether any diseases 
 ' which may be 'on the border line should be included 
 in the schedule or excluded. If you can modify the 
 schedule to throw ^the onus prohandi on the workman, it 
 would be desirable I suggest to do so, just as in the 
 •case of an accident, anxi 'that sub-section 2 of section 8 
 ■should only apply in cases where it is a -thousand 
 'chances to one that the disease is not due to the nature 
 ■of the man's employment. 
 
 9276. Do you consider that miners' nystagmus, if it 
 'could he> proved to exist, is clearly an industrial 
 '-disease ?T^I. should say, from what I have heard from 
 ' the doctors, that it is an industrial disease, but the 
 ^fficulty in applying this section to nystagmus seems 
 to me this : under Section 8, if it can be shown by an 
 ■employer ■that the disease has not been contracted 
 -.altogether whilst the man is in his employment, he 
 should be .allowed to bring in for contribution em- 
 ployers who had employed the man within 12 months 
 of the time the disease -was discovered. I think it 
 is a very fair principle that the compensation should 
 l)e distributed amongst all those with whom the man 
 has been employed during the time this disease, which 
 is of gradiial process, has been) coming, on. As you 
 have heard, five years is about the minimum, and it 
 may be a great deal longer time during which nystag- 
 anus is developing, and this clause only provides that 
 
 any employer within twelve months shall be made 
 ' partly responsible. If you have power to alter that 
 
 ™nX' \/^''?i'^ ^"^ r"" *° *^^^ '^^^y that twelve 
 months altogether, and say that any employer with 
 whom any man has been employed during the time 
 the disease has been gradually in process should be 
 Drought in for compensation. 
 
 9277. Do you consider it would be more to the ad- 
 vantage of employers to have to investigate for whom 
 the man has been working, say, for the previous fifteen 
 or twenty years, and to bring them all in, and to assess 
 the compensation amongst the whole of them rather 
 thaji fo*' the last employer to pay in each case, and 
 wen If he has to pay for a share of the man's in- 
 capacity which was really due to another employer 
 he would, on the other hand, in some cases escape 
 paying a share which he ought to pay in cases of 
 men who have left his employment and gone to some- 
 one else. Would not it work pretty fairly all round 
 if the last employer only was made to pay? — With 
 reference to nystagmus, I am afraid the amount of 
 compensation might be very serious. The general 
 opinion seems to be, rightly or wrongly, that if a iman 
 suffers from the disease he ought at once to cease work- 
 ing down below. Now, the remuneration for labour 
 on the surface that such a man could do would in all 
 probability be very much less than the amount he would 
 receive if he worked down below. A collier, for 
 instance, would be getting a great deal more than he 
 would in any occuipation on the surface, and the result 
 would be that for a man's life he would have to be 
 paid some compensation. According to the Act, if the 
 County Court Judge came to the conclusion he 'should 
 divide the loss, it would be half the loss, and in other 
 cases the County Court Judge might give him the 
 whole difference, so that it might happen that a young 
 man might have a pension for the rest of his life. 
 Therefore the amount of compensation would be very 
 serious indeed, and I think it ought to be spread over 
 as many people as possible. 
 
 9278. From the standpoint of the employers, which 
 do you think would cause less trouble, expense, and 
 complication — the last employer paying in each case, 
 even though he is paying for incapacity which is not 
 due to him, and escaping payment when he has not 
 been the last employer? Would you go back ten, 
 fifteen, or twenty years, tracing out previous employers, 
 divide up the compensation amongst them, and collect 
 varying payments from each employer as the compensa- 
 tion to the man is varied ? — It is difficult to say. If 
 a, man came from another district the probability is he 
 would get no contribution at all. There is a clause in 
 the Act requiring a workman to give information, but 
 where a collier moves from one district to another it 
 would be difficult to get a contribution. There might 
 be cases where men came from, abroad. I was rather 
 putting it, if you could not alter the section, to leave 
 the disease out on account of the injustice which might 
 result to an employer from the contributors being 
 limited in number. 
 
 9279. (Professor Alttutt.) Do you mean leave nystag- 
 mus out?!— Yes. I look upon nystagmus as a very 
 serious question if a man ought not to be allowed to 
 work below again. He may be attacked as a young 
 man, and have a long life before him. 
 
 9280. (Chairman.) If the Committee decided to in- 
 clude nystagmus, which of the two alternatives which 
 I have put before you do you think your Association 
 would prefer? — If you include nystagmus I think I 
 should prefer .it to stop as it is, and not go back 
 beyond the twelve months, because I think the chances 
 of a contribution are so small that it would not be 
 worth while making any alteration. 
 
 Mr. 1. B, 
 Ellis. 
 
288 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. T. R. 
 
 Ellis. 
 
 12 Mar. 1907 
 
 9281. And if a given employer loses in some cases 
 he might gain in others ? — ^He might gain in others. 
 
 9282. With regard to beat hand and beat knee, what 
 is your view as to their inclusion 7 — I think those ought 
 to be cases where the onus of proof should be upon the 
 men. One cannot resist the evidence that doctors give, 
 particularly in the North of England, that it is very 
 common amongst colliers, but at the same time I under- 
 stand that anybody is liable to get it who uses his 
 hands in work of that sort, and therefore it occurs to 
 me that it is a case in which a man should be bound 
 to prove, not only that he had got the beat knee or beat 
 hand, but that it was due to his employment. 
 
 9283. With regard to lung diseases, what do you 
 say ? — As to those, I think equally it should be proved 
 by the man. I suppose what the doctor would require 
 to know would be the history of the man, not merely 
 the fact that he is in that condition, and I think there 
 ought to be an opportunity of having that inquired 
 into from the man himself. If the employer has to 
 disprove it, the man need not open his mouth at all. 
 
 9284. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Is it your view that in coal 
 mines there is any case made out as to miners' phthisis ? 
 — None at all. There is another point, which is this, 
 that in the schedule " mining " only is mentioned, and 
 I was going to ask the Committee not to put opposite 
 mining any of those diseases which are in no way 
 incident to coal mining ; but that you should say " coal 
 mining," and anything which you think might be 
 incident to coal mining, and put the other diseases 
 against the particular kind of mining which you con- 
 
 sider they ought to be placed against. I do not want to> 
 have to disprove a case because it happens to be oppo- 
 site mining which has nothing to do with coal mining. 
 
 9285. You mean it is of importance to employers to» 
 make it clear, do you ? — Yes ; and that the only diseases^ 
 which you considered incident to coal mining should 
 be opposite coal mining. 
 
 9286. {Dr. Legge.) Do I gather from you that you. 
 would prefer to see the second column as small as 
 it can be made 1 — I should be glad to have it a little- 
 larger, because one classification "mining" will not 
 suffice. 
 
 9287. But you would prefer to have the burden of 
 proof thrown on the workmen? — Yes, I would. 
 
 9288. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Do I understand, with' 
 regard to nystagmus, you admit that the burden might 
 fairly be on the employer ? — I think we ought to admit 
 that, unless we can show to the contrary ; but in the 
 case of beat knee and beat hand, then I think the miner- 
 not only ought to prove that he has it, but that he- 
 got it in his employment. 
 
 9289. Have you anything to say about chronic carbon 
 monoxide poisoning ? — I do not think that ought to be 
 paid for as a disease. 
 
 9290. (Dr. Legge. ) Do you know that some cases hav^ 
 been published where poisoning from dinitro benzol 
 has been contracted through handling cartridges) — 1 
 have heard that said, but I should think that is verjr 
 exceptional. 
 
 THIRTY-FIRST DAT. 
 
 Monday, ISth March 1907. 
 
 MEMBEES PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hekbeet Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 
 Mr. Henet Cunynghame, c.b. 
 Professor CLiFroED Allbutt, r.E.s. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott {Secretary)^ 
 
 Mr 
 
 ■. J. F. W. Tatham, M.A., M.D., D.P.H., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. F. W. 
 
 Tatham, 
 
 M.A., M.D., 
 
 D.P.H. 
 
 9291. {Chairman.) Are you Superintendent of Stae 
 tistics at the Registrar-General's office? — Yes. 
 
 9292-3. Have you lately revised your tables of mor- 
 tality?— Yes. 
 18 Mar. 1907. 9294. When?— In the year 1901. 
 
 9295. Have you any new tables which are quite up 
 to date of death rates with respect to occupational 
 mortality ? — Yes, I have some tables, but they are not 
 published yet. 
 
 9296. Could you give the Committee any figures from 
 those tables? — Yes, if you will tell me exactly what 
 you want. 
 
 9297. Can you tell the Committee whether any varia- 
 tions have occurred in the death rate from phthisis 
 generally in different occupations in the first place, and 
 fibroid phthisis in the next place ? — I am afraid I must 
 explain. With regard to phthisis generally a great 
 deal is included under that term, which is not tuber- 
 culous phthisis. In some parts of the country, at any 
 rate, medical men are probably less careful than they 
 ought to be, and a good deal 'oomes under the term 
 phthisis which, properly, should not be included. 
 
 9298. {Professor Allbutt.) After all, the name 
 "phthisis" does not signify much, does it? — Not 
 always. 
 
 9299. {Chairman.) As a matter of fact, have you, in 
 your tables of mortality, tables giving the death rate 
 in various occupations from phthisis ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9300. What I want to know is whether the more 
 
 recent figures have shown any maxked variation in any 
 particular occupation in that respect ; are there any 
 occupations in which any marked variations have 
 occurred ? — I cannot give you the exact figures without 
 reference to the tables, but I shall be glad to supply 
 them to you. I know that there are considerable 
 variations. 
 
 9301. What period do the last figures cover? — The 
 years 190O, 1901, and 1902— i.e., the Census year and 
 the years on each side of it. 
 
 9302. Your figures, I suppose, are necessarily de- 
 pendent on the certificates given by medical men of 
 the causes of death? — Quite so. 
 
 9303. Therefore if medical men are not careful in 
 distinguishing fibroid phthisis from tubercular phthisis- 
 that lack of care would necessarily, would it not, to 
 some extent impair your statistics ? — To a very great 
 extent. 
 
 9304. Do your latest figures give a separate heading 
 for fibrosis ? — Not in respect of occupations ; fibrosis- 
 comes under "Other diseases of the lung." In the 
 occupational mortality tables the deaths are now classi- 
 fied similarly to what they were 10 years ago. You 
 see under that head " Other diseases of the respiraitoiy 
 system," the tables are repeated and are identical for 
 all the occupations ; but, unfortunately, they do not 
 distinguish fibroid phthisis from other forms of limg 
 disease. 
 
 9305. Have you noticed any marked variation in the 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 289 
 
 death- rate from diseases of the respiratory system 
 among pottera ? — It varies, from year to year. 
 
 9306. You have not noticed any constant tendency 
 in that direction ?— Except the tendency for the disease 
 to he very fatal amongst them. It is still very fatal. 
 Of course I shall supply joti, -with pleasure, with the 
 exact figures. 
 
 9307. You have no reason to think that fibrosis of 
 the lung has almost disappeared amongst potters ? — 
 No, I should think it has not disappeared. 
 
 9308. With regard to coal miners, do you gather 
 from your investigation of the figures which have been 
 placed before you from all parts of the country that 
 that class of men suffer specially from lung diseases? 
 —No, certainly not from phthisis. They suffer from 
 phthisis in something like half the proportioai that 
 people generally suffer .from it. 
 
 9309. By " phthisis " now you mean tubercular 
 phthisis, do yOTi?^ — Yes, tuherouloius phthisis. 
 
 9310. Do you ever get returns of fibrosis of the lung 
 among coal miners ?■— Yes, but we do not abstract them 
 separately, for the reason that the numbers would 
 aiarcely justify a separate classification. 
 
 9311. Is that because cases of fibrosis are in your 
 opinion very few among coal miners, or because doctors 
 do not or cannot distinguish what is fibrosis and what 
 is tubercular phthisis ? — I think your first suggestion 
 would be the correct one — namely, that amongst 
 colliers tuberculous phthisis, and fi,broid phthisis, too, 
 are comparatively infrequent diseases. 
 
 9312. Turning to tin miners in Cornwall, have you 
 a different state of things ? — Yes, there you have a 
 good deal of phthisis. 
 
 9313. And fibroid phthisis? — Probably. You see, 
 unfortunately I cannot discriminate between them, 
 because they are not returned separately ; but cer- 
 tainly there is phthisis. 
 
 9314. Do your tables show the incidence of compara- 
 tively rare diseases like glanders? — No, not in com- 
 bination with occupations. The tables which you have 
 before you for the country generally do show those 
 diseases. That table for 1906, for the whole of Eng- 
 land and Wales, gives the details for something like 20 
 years. The upper portion of th.a.t table .gives the crude 
 faats ; the lower portion gives the rates of mortality, 
 so that the lower portion is much better for p.urposes 
 of comparison, as yO'U will see. 
 
 9315. (Professor Allbwtt.) Is there a descending rate 
 of mortality among potters from p.hthisis in recent 
 years? — I have not the figures before me, but my im- 
 ipression is that the mortality amongst potters is some- 
 what less from phthisis than it was 10 years ago, but 
 I will send you the figures. 
 
 9316. (Dr. Legge.) Although you include fibroid 
 phthisis under "other respiratory diseases," do you 
 think that the medical men in their certificates gene- 
 rally include it under the term " phthisis " ? — I think 
 they do — a great many certainly do, and I have not 
 the slightest doubt either that cases which originate 
 as fibrosis of the lung become tuberculous in time. 
 I fancy you yourself have reported somewhat to tha 
 same effect. 
 
 9317. Therefore in the table on page 96 of the 
 decennial supplement for 1891-2 the conditions of 
 fibrosis are to be ascertained mo.re from the diseases 
 of the respiraitory system than from, common phthisis 
 or quite as much ? — Prolbably quite as much. 
 
 9318. Will you kindly turn to Table 4 in the Supple- 
 ment, page 146, No. 18, "Dock labourer and wharf 
 labourer," is it not? — Yes. 
 
 9319. The figure for phthisis is 325, bronchitis 286, 
 pneumonia 220. Are not all those figures exceptionally 
 high?— -If you take, for instance, all males as your 
 standard you will see that bronchitis, pneumonia, and 
 pleurisy are considerably higher. Will you kindly 
 remember thalt these are the figures not for 1901-2, but 
 for 1891-2. 
 
 9320. But these are the only figures we have at 
 present, are they not ?— Yes, butal am going to send 
 you the corresponding figures for the later period. 
 
 9321. The conditions in reference to those dock 
 ■' labourers are practically the same as they are with 
 •regard to cutlers, are they not? — ^Yes, but for a very 
 
 different reason, I sho.uld think. The figures^ as to 
 dock labourers and wharf labourers mean destitution 
 
 419 
 
 thhi ™^^®^ ^^°™ non-employment and that sort of Mr. J. F. W. 
 
 Tatham, 
 
 9322. We have had a good deal of evidence with ^"'^■^ M.D., 
 regard to the amount of dust produced in the unload- °■'^•^■ 
 ing of cargoes of grain ?-Yes, no doubt, but dock 18 M^ITlqn? 
 labourers, you see, are people who very readily get out - -li 
 of employment, and that accounts for a good deal of 
 
 their mortality. 
 
 9323. But you could not say, could you, that that 
 mortality was not in large measure due to dust, if dusty 
 conditions were present ?— Probably it would be so to a 
 certain extent. 
 
 9324. Do you include it in the table on page 96 
 which rrfers to the effects of breathing dust-laden air? 
 —1 do not think so for the reasons that I have stated. 
 
 9325. I cannoi find in any other occupation that the 
 tigures are comparable except those of the cutler and 
 of the scissors grinder ?— Dock labourers are not com- 
 parable m any sense with cutlers. I take it, it is 
 simply an accident. I do not think the heavy mor- 
 tality would be due to the same cause. I should feel 
 inclined to think that other circumstances determined 
 it. 
 
 9326. Will you mention the various ways in which 
 non-itubercular disease of the lung is described on 
 death certificates ?— Yes, anthracosis pulmonum. 
 
 9327. le that a frequent description.? — Fairly so. 
 Grinder's asthma, potter's asthma, collier's phthisis, 
 cirrhosis of the lung, chronic interstitial pneumonia' 
 millstone maker's phthisis, miner's phthisis, pneu- 
 moconiosis, siderosis, and silicosis. That is a list of 
 the uamee we find in medical certifirates. I wish they 
 could all be reduced to one name. The only way that 
 I know of in which you could obtain really useful 
 information would be by applying to the medical men 
 in charge of people engaged in occupations of this kind. 
 I think I am right in saying that many medical men 
 have a very large practice amongst persons engaged 
 in occupations of this kind, and that they would be 
 able to give you very useful inform'ation. In the 
 Returns of the Registrar^Gfeneral we only deal wilJi 
 deaths, and of course th^ deaths only fo.rm, happily, 
 a small proportion of thef.sick cases. I should like to 
 get at the sick cases if I could. What is wanted is a 
 register of sickness., and in that way you would get 
 really useful information. I do not think very much 
 can be got from the death figures alone, because, as I 
 say, the deaths form only a small proportion of the 
 cases. Then, again, the deaths may be certified as 
 being due to one disease, but it may be one of several 
 diseases, or a co.mplication of diseases. 
 
 9328. But the term pneumoconiosis covers the whole 
 subject of dust, does it not? — Yes, that would mean 
 
 dust-disease. 
 
 9329. But it would also mean anthracosis, I suppose ? 
 . — Yes, it would. 
 
 9330. And that you say, do you, is very rare.? — ■ 
 No, I do not say it is very rare, but I say it does not 
 appear so frequently now as it used to do in death cer- 
 tificates. I have no means of judging whether it is rare- 
 or not, and therefore I aim suggesting that you should 
 go to the medical men who really treat the cases. For 
 instance, supposing a case of fibrosis of the lung, w© 
 will say, occurs, the patient is obliged to give up work 
 for a time ; he goes home and probably develops some 
 other disease — it may be a tuberculous disease, it may 
 be disease of the kidney, it may be Bright's disease ; 
 then the question is, is the medical attendant going U 
 certify the death as pneumoconiosis or fibrosis, or wilt 
 he call it Bright's disease? It is often a toss up, in 
 my opinion, which he does state, so that our statisticb- 
 are considerafoly vitiated in that way. We are obliged 
 to make a selection from among the ca.usee of death. 
 
 9331. But if it was a lung disease he would choose 
 phthisis as a term to be adopted, would he not ? Do 
 you think phthisis is a word which we ought to try and 
 exclude ? — ^I should like to have it limited to tuber- 
 culous phthisis. 
 
 9332. Supposing such terms as silicosis and eiderosi* 
 were used would they include tubercular affection 
 which supervened on the primary silicosis ? — No ; if it 
 did then those terms would be bad ; but I should think 
 those t^rms would be very good indeed to. differentiate 
 pneumoconiosis from tuberculous phthisis. 
 
 9333. (Chairman.) But _ they would not inrlude 
 anthracosis ? — Pneumoconiosis would, but not siderosis. 
 
 2 O 
 
290 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 ilr. J. F.. \y. 9334. (Dr. Legge.) Do you understand by anthracosis 
 
 Talhani, coalminers' phthisis? — Anthracosis simply means the 
 
 M.A.,M.0. , blac-k pigmentation of the lung, not necessarily tuber- 
 
 D.P.H. CUloUS. 
 
 18 Mar. 1907. 
 
 9335. But that would not be a cause of death, would 
 it ? — It occasionally appears so in the deafcli certificates, 
 and we cannot get behind these. 
 
 9336. Therefore it would be right to exclude anthra- 
 cosis from a schedule of the diseases for which com- 
 pensation was to be paid, I suppose ? — I cannot, I am 
 afraid, answer that. I have not considered the ques- 
 tion from that point of view at all. 
 
 9337. Supposing tubercular affection were added to 
 silicosis, it would be a secondary cause, would it not, 
 to the silicosis ? — ^Certainly ; but according to rule, 
 ind we are obliged to lay down some rules for classifica- 
 tion, in case tuberculous infection occurs it would be 
 taken in preference to any ordinary lung disease. 
 
 9338. (Professor AlUnitt.) If you substitute the word 
 "supervenes" for "occurs" would your answer still 
 stajid ? — Yes. 
 
 9330. (Chairman.) The Committee have had a good 
 deal of evidence to the effect that there is no such 
 thing as anthracosis from medical men, who say they 
 have never seen a, case of a collier contracting any form 
 of phthisis from the inflammation set up by coal dust, 
 and that coal dust is not a. lung irritant. Would the 
 fact that anthracosis appears in your sta-tistics imply 
 that officially you are of opinion that disease may be 
 contracted from the inhalation of coal dust ? — Disease 
 certainly, but I should think not often tuberculous 
 phthisis ; tuberculous phthisis is relatively rare amongst 
 the coal miners. 
 
 9340. Then what disease would be contracted P — 
 Bronchitis probably, or some form of irritation of the 
 air tubes — the result of dusts of various kinds — the 
 result of the inhalation of those noxious viapooirs and 
 gases that are to be found in ooaj mines. 
 
 9341. Would they be entered in any table under the 
 heading of anthracosis? — No, they would appear under 
 the particular respiratory disease. 
 
 9342. Anthracosis is essentially a form of lung 
 disease, is it not; it is a name for a special kind of 
 fibrosis of the 1 ung, is it not ? — Yes, it is included under 
 fibrosis of the king. When a death from anthracosis 
 is returned we do refer it to fibroid disease of the lung 
 for want of a better place. 
 
 9543. Have you any information of your own as to 
 whether or not such a disease as anthracosis — that is 
 to say, fibrosis of the lung, due to the inhalation of coal 
 dust— does exist at all, or do you simply accept it from 
 the medical men who certify death to be due from that 
 cause ? — We simply accept it. I have no opinion to 
 express on the point, because for many years I have 
 had no experience of treating the diseases of colliers. 
 
 9344. (Professor Allbutt.) How doesi bronchitis stand 
 in the returns oi diseases amongst colliers ? — 'Bronchitis 
 is rather more fatal amongst colliers than amongst the 
 population ge^nerally, and in that respect it differs 
 from tuberculous phthisis. 
 
 9345. (Chairman.) You are going to be good enough 
 to supply us with more recent figures of occupational 
 mortality, I understand? — Yes. 
 
 9346. Could you discriminate in those figures the 
 various forms of phthisis other than tubercular of which 
 you have given a list here? — Not in that degree of 
 differentiation. What I can do is to give you the 
 form's of lung disease that appear in the tables — for 
 instance, bronchitis, pneumonia, and "other diseases 
 of the lung." 
 
 9347. But you cannot give these 'n nnn-tubercular 
 forms of phthisis, can you? — No, they are all lumped 
 under the head fibrosis or fibroid disease of the lung; 
 here again for the purposes of the tables concerning 
 
 occupational mortality, they are included under the 
 head " other respiratory diseases." 
 
 9348. (Professor AUhutt.) Might I suggest that 
 probably in your opinion all these cases of fibroid 
 phthisis are sooner or later tuberculous ? — Do you mean 
 to say they do not eventuate in tubercle ? 
 
 9349. I think they do ? — So do I. 
 
 9350. In that case, you see, the heading of fibrosis 
 might get obliterated on your proposal, would it not ? — 
 Yes. I think that some medical men who' treat a case 
 of fibrosis of the lungs, which eventually becomes tuber- 
 culous, would certify it as such ; it would consequently 
 appear as a death from phthisis ; and I believe that a 
 very large proportion of suoh cases do become tuber- 
 culous eventually. 
 
 9351. And do you think they ought to be returned as 
 tuberculous phthisis ? — I think so, certainly. 
 
 9352. But would you not then lose all record of the 
 origination of the disease? — I have not the slightest 
 doubt tbat the bulk of the cases do come under the 
 head of phthisis, because medical men call them 
 phthisis when they get to the last stage. 
 
 9353. (Chairman.) I notice that in Table 19, under 
 the heading " Deaths from various causes, at all agee, 
 1886 to 1905," in the year 1901, phthisis seems to 
 have been divided into two — '' pulmonary tuberculosis " 
 and " phthisis not otherwise defined" P — Yes. 
 
 9354. Previously to that date were they all in one 
 group of figures ? — Yes, and that was an attempt on 
 my part to distinguish tuberculous phthisis from 
 phthisis of other kinds. 
 
 9355. Do your figures show that the 644 are cases of 
 phthisis which are not tuberculous, or do they mean 
 that they are cases in which the medical men have not 
 troubled to define whether they are or not? — ^I think 
 the latter. 
 
 9356. (-Dr. Legge.) Then, I think, in another table 
 you have actually got the number of cases of fibroid 
 phthisis returned ? — That ie so. 
 
 9357. (Professor Allbuit.) Where a medical man has 
 been so careful as to define it as fibroid phthisifi I should 
 have thought he might be relied upon ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9358. (Chairman.) But in your view if tubercle has 
 supervened it is no longer fibroid? — No, I should 
 classify it as tuberculous phthisis. 
 
 9359. But you say almost all cases of fibroid phthisis 
 ultimately 'become tuberculous? — That is my opinion, 
 afld I am glad to be in accord with Professor Allbutt, 
 who is a much higiher authority than I am. 
 
 9360. (Dr. Legge.) I suppose the term silicosis would 
 include the bronchitis ; that would be associated in the 
 later stages with it? — Not unless it was certified so. 
 Bronchitis, as such, would come in our classification 
 under ths head of bronchitis. 
 
 9361. (Chairman.) But almost all the figures with 
 regard to fibroid phthisis and other forms of phthisis 
 ai-e vitiated, in your opinion, by the idiosyncrasy of 
 the particular medical men who make the returns? — 
 Quite so. 
 
 9362. And no definite conclusion can be drawn from 
 th'Sm ? — I think not. 
 
 9363. We cannot assume, for instance, where we find 
 in 1905 a fi'gure of 411 deaths in England and Wales 
 from fibroid disease of the lung, that there were only 
 411 people who really died because they had contracted 
 lung disease from dust? — I think not. I do not think 
 you would be warranted in assuming that that was 
 the sum total. I think Dr. Legge, who has had con- 
 siderable experience in these matters, will tell you 
 that it is quite possible to get definite information from 
 the medical men who are actually in charge of people 
 of this kind. 
 
 Mr. Jabez Booth and Mr. Noah Paekes, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. Booth 9364. (Chairman.) Do you attend here as represent- 
 and Mr. ing the National Amalgamated Society of Male and 
 N. Parkes. Fsniale Pottery Workers? — (Mr. Booth.) That is so. 
 
 9365. Of which you are the organisers ? — Quite so. 
 
 9366. Have you worked in the trade for a number of 
 years? — Yes — 35 years. 
 
 9367. Are you of opinion that it is an unhealthy 
 trad'3? — I am sure of it. 
 
 9368. What diseases do potters chiefly suffer from? 
 — It goes by a variety of names ; usually we call it, in 
 the potteries, potters' rot. 
 
 9369. That is a form of phthisis — lung disease? — 
 
DEPAKTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 291 
 
 Yes. The medical profession call it potters' asthma 
 sometimes, and sometimes it is called bronchitis ; and 
 recently I saw a doctor's certificate, when a man had 
 died from it, in which he described it as pneumo- 
 coniosis. 
 
 9370. Do a largg proportion of the men and women 
 employed in the work suffer from these diseases ? — Yes, 
 a large proportion of the men, but I do not think it 
 is so frequent amongst the women. 
 
 9371. Do you think it is connected at all with in- 
 haling dust? — Yes. 
 
 9372. What processes in the potteries make men 
 specially liable to this disease 2 — The hollow-ware 
 preeser, the sanitary presser, th© flat pressor, and I am 
 not sure about the tile-makers. The tile-makers work 
 in an excess of dust, but I am not sure whether flint 
 is used for ihs tile-makers' dust. 
 
 9373. "What do you say as to the biscuit-placer? — 
 I never knew any biscuit-placer to suffer from potters' 
 asthma. 
 
 9374. Do towers? — ^Yes. 
 
 9375. Do people engaged in any other processes 
 suffer? — I cannot think of any more just now. There 
 are a few cases, where the handlers — ^that is, the people 
 who put handles on cups and jugs — are located at their 
 work amongst other branches where there is much 
 dust caused. The certificate I referred to just now was 
 in the case of a man who was a handler. Under ordi- 
 nary conditions the handler is not subject to dust, but 
 having to work with oth3r people where dust prevails 
 he did inhale it, which brought .about his death. 
 
 9376. Of course, some men work for a long time 
 before contracting this disease, do they not? — Yes. 
 Personally, myself, I think I have been fairly well off. 
 I have been in the trade 35 years, but I have not been 
 compelled to work long hours nor work very heavily, 
 whereas another man, who may have been compelled 
 to earn his living wholly at the trade, would have suf- 
 fered, perhaps, some years before I should. I was 
 talking to a medical man in our district a few weeks 
 back, and he said that any man who had worked in 
 the trada 22 years was sure to have it ; he could not 
 help it. 
 
 9377. That is with regard to one of the dangerous 
 processes, is it? — ^Yes. 
 
 9378. The women engaged in painting china, for 
 instance, although pottery workers, would not run any 
 risk of contracting the disease, I suppose ? — No. This 
 disease comes, I claim, mainly through the inhalation 
 of dust, because in the dust there are particles of flint. 
 You know, perhaps, in the making of earthenware 
 there is a good deal of flint used. The man who makes 
 the ware has to finish it, which he cannot do until it 
 is dry, and when it is dry fcits fall about his feet and 
 his bench. They get trampled underfoot, and are 
 made smaller and powdered, and there is always a con- 
 stant heat in the rooms which is drying the dust on 
 the floor, and if the sun happened to shine through the 
 window you can see long beams of dust. 
 
 9379. (Professor Allhutt.) Where does the. silicated 
 clay that is used, come from? — ^It is manufactured on 
 the works. 
 
 9380. But where is it dug?— (Mr. Parkes.) In the 
 Devon and Cornwall mines, and, of ooure©, the flint is 
 the ordinary flint. 
 
 9381. (Chairman.) What do you think is the least 
 period in which this form of phthisis ever develops? 
 Supposing a man has been working at one of the pro- 
 cesses six months, would you be surprised if he got 
 the disease in that time ?--<Mr. Booth.) I should. 
 
 9382. What period should you think would be the 
 least period ?— With a weak constitution, I might ex- 
 pect to find it in three or four years in a small degree. 
 
 9383. Are you of opinion that compensation should 
 be paid to men who suffer from this disease, under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act? — ^I am. 
 
 9384. WTio do you think ought to pay the compensa- 
 tion ; suppose the man has been working for 10 or 
 20 years, and has gone from one employment to 
 another?— I think the plan ought to be that a general 
 fund should be raised by the manufacturers of th.3 
 district, and each case ought to be paid from that 
 general fund. I think the trade ought to find the com- 
 pensation for the disease. Perhaps I might point out 
 a case. Tho general secretary of our society was the 
 
 ' 419 
 
 late Mr. Thomas Picken, who died 12 months ago last j/, , Sooih 
 December. Had not he been out of the trade for 14 and Mr 
 years he would certainly have been d-ad six or seven .V Parkea 
 years sooner than he was. He had got the disease -— 
 when he received the appointment as general secretary ^^ '^^ar. 1907. 
 and perhaps had had it five or six years before he left ~" — 
 the trade, but he could keep on working now and 
 again, as is the case with many potters. They work 
 part time, and are ill two or three days, and may then 
 ftoramble to work again for two or three days, and it is 
 positively a pam to see how some of the men suffer 
 I have sean numbers of them whom it has taken three 
 hours m the morning to get to work, after rising from 
 their 'bed ; it takes so l^,ng to wash and creep about, 
 b th ^^^ ^^^ **^*'" standing in the roadways to get 
 
 9385. But there is no power under the Workmen's 
 Compensation Act to compel the employers in a trade 
 to combine unless the majority of them are already in 
 some insurance company ; therefore it would be a ques- 
 tion of imposing a liability on an individual employer. 
 In the case of other diseases the liability is imposed on 
 an employer who last employed the man, unless he can 
 prove that the disease was contracted while the man 
 was working for some other employer during the last 
 12 months. Have you consideTCd any means by which 
 in a just way the employer can be made to bear the 
 burden of compensating a man who may have con- 
 tracted the disease over a period of 15 or 20 yaars? — 
 We have thought about it, and, as a matter of fact, we 
 have talked about it, but the employers themselves did 
 not seem to be willing to take it on, and, seeing that 
 we had so many men who fell by their trade, and often 
 came to poverty and want, .and have only been pro- 
 vided for by their own local sick societies or the pro- 
 ceeds of some collection made by their fellow- workers, 
 while the employers largely have not contributed in any 
 sense to any of these suffering people, we, as workers, 
 think it would only be reasonable that the trade that 
 killed the men should pay the compensation. 
 
 9386. Would you suggest that the last employer of a 
 man should be liable to pay the icompensation, and 
 then let the 'Smployers arrange amongst themselves how 
 to spread the burden over the trade? — Yes, I would 
 suggest that, if that is the best that can be got for us. 
 
 9387. There is another point, which has rather exer- 
 cised the minds of the Committee, v^nhich I should like 
 your view upon. Suppose potters' asthma or the 
 disease which goes by that name "were scheduled under 
 the Workmen's Compensation Act, and the employer 
 was liable to pay, perhaps, half wages to a man for 
 many years until he died, do not you think the 
 employers might get rid of all the men in their works 
 who showed symptoms of the disease before they were 
 incapacitated ? — We have looked at that difficulty some- 
 what, but our society thought that at some time or 
 other, when any reform had to be made somebody had 
 to suffer, and if the older men to-day have to suffer, 
 we shall have to abide by it, but we shall be doing a 
 good thing for the people that are to come after us. 
 
 9388. The effect, of course, would be not only as 
 regards the old men of to-day, but the middle-aged 
 men of the future, and as soon as they showed any 
 symptoms of asthma they might be discharged. Do you 
 think it is better for men to be discharged when they 
 first show the symptoms, and thereby be compelled to 
 go into some other employment, perhaps at less wages, 
 which is less dangerous, or do you think it is b-Btter 
 for them to work on at the higher wages, and continue 
 in the potters' trade so long as they can work — perhaps 
 for another 10 or 1j years ? — ^Personally I cannot see 
 why they should be discharged. It is the middle-aged 
 men and the old men who have made the trade what it 
 is to-day, and if the trade has made so much money as 
 it has in the .past— I do not say the masters, but the 
 trade — then these men, who are now middle-aged, who 
 you say might be discharged, deserve better considera- 
 tion, and they ought to be nrotected from being dis- 
 charged and thrown on to the world. 
 
 9389. But how could that be done?— It could be 
 done by making the law prospective for the youngsters 
 of to-day, taking a certain age and ncrt taking it retro- 
 spectively at all. 
 
 9390. But you cannot pass an Act of Parliament that 
 an employer shall not dismiss a workman, can you? 
 —No. 
 
 9391. Then how can you protect workpeople from 
 being discharged if they show symptoms of asthma? 
 
 2 
 
292 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 18 Mar. 1907 
 
 — I mean if a man was discharged by one employer, 
 and that employer said, " You are not a fit workman," 
 another employer might engage him ; but if he dis- 
 charged the man and said, " You have asthma," that 
 would be an excuse for the other employer not to 
 engage him. 
 
 9392. But probably he would not say he had asthma. 
 The matter is in the mind of the Committee and has 
 been considered by them, and I want to be quite sure 
 that you and your society are willing to face the risk 
 that through putting potters' asthma in the schedule to 
 the Compensation Act men who show symptoms of 
 asthma might be dismissed from their wOTk before they 
 beooe incapacitated and before the employer becomes 
 liable to pay compensation ? — I quite seethe point, and 
 I have sean it all the way through, and the latter por- 
 tion of your letter to us last week prevents us from 
 going into the question of what might be in the future. 
 I am free to admit that to-day there is not so much 
 potters' asthma as there was 20 years ago by far. 
 
 9393. Do you attribute that to Home OfBice rules and 
 better ventilation at all ? — Yes, and if the Home Office 
 now, or any other Office, would compel better ven- 
 tilation and better flooring and that kind of thing 
 in the workshops, I think potters' asthma would very 
 soon become a thing of the past except in a few 
 isolated cases. Perhaps I had better say here with 
 regard to the sanitary trade that I am a little bit 
 nervous as to what the future may be for the sanitary 
 workers. Such high-class work is expected from them 
 that when closets and lavatories and so on are being 
 got for the oven ajid being thoroughly dried^^what we 
 call white — the employers demand that a smooth 
 surface, smoother than usually obtained in years past, 
 shall be brought on the fronts of lavatories and closets 
 and everything. They have to be rubbed with flannels 
 and sandpaper and so on until they get a smooth 
 surface. When they have been rubbed with this 
 flannel the men have to blow the dust off. 
 
 9394. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is that after dipping? — 
 No, before it is fired at all — in the clay ; before the 
 flrst firing. There is a man working and blowing the 
 dust off, and another man working close by and blow- 
 his dust off, and by dinner time the place is full of 
 dust. 
 
 9595. What is that dust compos.ed of? Is it com- 
 posed of th-6 body of the ware, and would it have flint 
 in it ? — Yes. 
 
 9396. (CJtairman.) You have not quite answered my 
 question. If you would prefer not to answer it say 
 so, but we should be very glad to know whether on 
 the whole you are prepared to face the risk of men 
 being discharged through this liability to compensa- 
 tion falling on the employer ? — My society has autho- 
 rised us to say that we are prepared to take the risk. 
 
 9397. (Mr. Cunynghame.) At present, as things are, 
 out of say 20 men, how many get potters' rot towards 
 the end of their lives? What ftgui-e would you give 
 as an estimate ? — Out of any 20 men you choOse, dc 
 you mean? 
 
 9398. Yes. If you went through the trade and took, 
 say, 100 men, how many of them under present con 
 'ditions would you expect to find afflicted in the way 
 you have described ? — After 30 years' work in the trade 
 I should expect to find 80 out of the 100 affected. 
 
 9399. Do you mean 80 should be compensated under 
 the Workmen's Compensation Act? — Under present 
 
 •conditions I should expect to find 80 affected by the 
 disease. 
 
 9400. Who would have to be compensated under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act? — No. 
 
 9401. How many would you expect would have to 
 be compensated under the Act, administered in a fair 
 and reasonable waj ? — I do not think I could answer 
 that, because there are so many different kinds of 
 workshops. You might go into one workshop full of 
 hollow ware pressers. I worked in one where there 
 were 70, and it would be as airy and healthy perhaps 
 on some days as this room itself, but when all the 
 people are dealing with the white work you get the 
 dust. If you go" into some workshops you see windows 
 out, boards stuck up, damp floors, the ware drying, 
 a bad atmosphere in the room, and a low ceiling, and 
 under these conditions there would be a greater per- 
 centage of sufferers from potters' asthma than there 
 •would be in the shop I referred to first. 
 
 9402. You could not give me the proportion out of 
 the 80 odd who would in your view come under the 
 
 provisions for compensation, could you? — No, I could 
 not, not to be safe. 
 
 9403. (Br. Legge.) I suppose you agree that many 
 occupations in the pot banks do not expose the workers 
 to contracting the disease?— Yes, a great many; the 
 majority are not subject to it, I think. 
 
 9404. Did you include in the list you mentioned 
 tile dust?— I did mention it, but I am not quite sure 
 that they use flint in this particular dust. There is 
 one employer whom I questioned on the matter, and 
 he said there was no flint used in it, but whether that 
 is so or not I could not tell you. 
 
 9405. You are referring to the tiles which are made 
 out of the compressed dust, are you ? — Yes, that is 
 what I referred to as well. I am not quite sure 
 whether there is flint used in the tile dust or not. 
 Some of the workpeople tell me there is ; some of the 
 employers tell me there is not. 
 
 9406. Have you any persons employed in that par- 
 ticular process who are on your sick funds that you 
 know of? — We have not any sick fund in connection 
 with our society. 
 
 9407. (Chairman.) Are there any other diseases 
 apart from potters' rot from which potters suffer which 
 you think might be included in the Workmen's Com- 
 pensation Act ?— The potters' system, through working 
 in the hot rooms, is subject and more susceptible, I 
 think, to diseases of other kinds. Take myself, if you 
 like, a man just touched with the disease, as perhaps 
 you can perceive I am. I am working in a hot room, 
 and perhaps on an evening, like it may be to-night, 
 I go out of the room with perspiration pouring from 
 me and a chill strikes me. Had not it been for the 
 potters' complaint very likely the chill would not 
 have happened, but through the weak condition of 
 the system I am more susceptible to cold, I think. 
 
 9408. Is it not very diflEicult in any case of that kind 
 to say whether or not the disease arises from the man's 
 employment. Take a man and his wife living in the 
 same house both having cold or both having a touch 
 of bronchitis, the wife does not go to the pottery at all, 
 but the man does. It is very difficult to say, is it 
 not, that the man's complaint is due to his employ- 
 ment and the woman's is due to some other cause. 
 Would you suggest for all the ills flesh is heir to the 
 employer should pay compensation ?^No. 
 
 9409. Then it is mainly the question of potters' 
 phthisis which you wish to bring before this Com- 
 mittee, is it?— Yes. 
 
 9410. (Chairman.) You have heard the evidence 
 given by Mr. Booth, have you not? — (Mr. Parlces.) 
 Yes. 
 
 9411. Do you agree with the general purport of it? 
 ■ — I do. I should say with regard to the last question 
 put to Mr. Booth, I think you were referring to potters' 
 eczema. 
 
 9412. Have you anything you wish to bring before 
 the Committee in addition to what he has said ? — ^We 
 have no instruction with regard to it at all, but with 
 regard to the girls who work in the lithograph shops 
 their hands are very bad sometimes, and I have seen 
 them myself all broken out ; it has been put down to 
 the trade, but whether it is sO' I do not know. 
 
 9413. Does that happen very often? — Yes. 
 
 9414. What do they attribute it to?— I think they 
 attribute it to the work, and always using a damp 
 sponge and colours. 
 
 9415. It is a kind ol eczema, is it? — Yes. 
 
 9416. Are they prevented from working by it ? — Yes. 
 
 9417. Do they have to stay at home? — Yes. 
 
 9418. Are they ever kept home for more than a week ? 
 —I know of one girl who was kept away longer than 
 a week. I should think longer than a fortnight. 
 
 9419. Have you worked for many years in the 
 potteries ? — Yes. 
 
 9420. Have you come across many cases of potters' 
 asthma? — I have. 
 
 9421. Have you come across any recent cases of 
 death ? — I have. I had som© particulars furnished to 
 me at our Lodge at Tunstall on Saturday night. I was 
 informed by a man who worked at a certain firm that 
 three men out of one workshop had died within the last 
 three months from this complaint. One of thei men was 
 named A., agied 34 ; he suffered six yeai-s, and had been 
 totally incapacitated for 12 months, and died in tho 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 293 
 
 middle of December, 1906. Then B., 54 yeai's of age, 
 had been suffering for five years, and had not worked 
 two months in the last 12 months. Then O., 
 -53 years of age, had suffered for three years, and died 
 on Friday last. These three men had all worked in one 
 «hop, and the people I saw on Saturday night made 
 great complaint about the condition of the workroom. 
 They said the roof was bad, the plaster was continually 
 falling and breaking their work ; in the morning when 
 -they went to work their aprons werei damp and had to 
 be dried before they could put them on, and they could 
 xot see through the windows for the steam on them in 
 the afternoon. You will understand these factories are 
 lioated by steam, and although that may be an advan- 
 tage in some way, it is certainly not for the good of the 
 workers, because in the old potters' drying room the 
 -fire stove used to provide some ventilation, but now 
 you get the doors and windows closed, and with the 
 ieat from, the steam pipes and the di-ying clay you get 
 a moisture and a heat which is detrimental to health. 
 
 9422. Has your Lodge made any complaint to the 
 local factory inspector about this? — I only got the in- 
 formation on Saturday night. 
 
 9423. You will make a complaint, I suppose? Yes. 
 
 i^Mr. Booth.) We have made many complaints to the 
 factory inspector. 
 
 9424. Have you had some other cases of death quite 
 recently within your own knowledge in your neighbour- 
 4iood?— (Mr. Parhes.) Yes. There are the ca'ses of D. 
 B., and F. I knew D. and E. well,, but F. I did not.' 
 3 know he has just died recently in Middleport. Then 
 -there is a man named 6., who is amono- those now 
 ■sufl'ering, and others, all within a short" distance of 
 Tvhere I live. 
 
 9425. Are you sure all these were cases of potters' 
 ^asthma and not of ordinary consumption ? — To the best 
 
 of my belief, they were all cases of potters' asthma, 
 .and, from what I caji see, out of the whole of these 
 <ia,)es they were cases of dust. 
 
 9426. Have you any statistics which you wish to lay 
 before the Oommitte© as to length of incapacitation ? — 
 No, 1 could not get any, and I do not think there are 
 any in existence with regard to. the length of 
 incapacitation. 
 
 9427. Or the number of deaths ?— Yes. 
 
 9428. Are the figures in your proof simply dravim 
 -from the tables of the Medical Officer of Health ?— Yes. 
 
 9429. Have you any figures which you wish to place 
 ■.before the Committee? — Dr. Mott, the Medical Officer 
 for Burslem, in his annual report for 1904, gives out of a 
 ■total number of deaths of 864, 52 cases of phthisis, 35 
 •other cases of tubercular disease, 92 of bronchitis, 
 lesjjiratory cases 43, heart disease 57, or a to^tal of 279. 
 Out of the same number of deaths in 1905 from phthisis 
 there were 50; 31 from other tubercular diseases, 100 
 from bronchitis, 47 from other respiratory diseases, 
 -and 56 from heai-t disease. 
 
 9430. Do you draw from that the conclusion that 
 ■the number of cases of deaths from diseases of the 
 Tespiratory system generally is very large in the town 
 of Burslem ? — I do. 
 
 9431. Do you agree with what was said by Mr. Booth 
 as to the willingness of the pottery workers to run the 
 risk of dismissals taking place if this disease were 
 included in the Workmen's Compensation Act? — They 
 know what appertains in regard to the workers, and in 
 the meetings where this matter has been dealt with 
 there has been no hand held up against it. It has not 
 ■^leen discussed as to whether they are willing to take 
 the risk, but our instructions are to press it for all we 
 ■are ' worth. 
 
 9432 Taking the whole situation into consideration m r r, .,. 
 your Union IS anxious to have potters' asthma included n ^ u"*'' 
 is i??-Yef "^^ ^ '""^ ^-"^-'^ Compensatm^^tt'! Tp^e. 
 
 asJh'i'a SSm SCt^tT^ '''^^ "' ^ ''''^' P'^^^-' '' -"—"'• 
 
 9434 There might be asthma, of course, from colds 
 and other things, but it is dust asthma that you are 
 iml y dealing with, is it not?— (IZr. Booth.) Yes. (Mr 
 larkes.) May I place on record the accounts of Dr' 
 Partington, of Tunstall? In his annwl report for 
 1901, and also m his report for 1903, these identical 
 
 h^^M"^""]'- ^i- ^^'^^ rf°^i°'" °'f the oases W 
 been fibroid phthisis, and have nearly all occurred 
 
 amongst persoais employed in branches of pottery manu- 
 facture, thus s^uggestinc; defects in the sanitai4 condi- 
 tion of the workrooms.'^ 
 
 9435. (Dr. Lerjge.) Are you awara tha4; there will be 
 a number of cases of ordinary phthisis oocurrina 
 ainong these workers? — Quite so. 
 
 9436. And that ordinary phthisis is infectious, and 
 can be conveyed from one person to another ?— Yes. 
 
 9437. You spoke of three cases that had occurred in 
 one workshop, where the conditions were bad and I 
 noticed that two were aged 53 and 54, and another was 
 |,ged 34 years. Are thera many potters at the age of 
 .54 who are suffering from chronic fibroid phthisis 
 due to dust, or po*ters' asthma ?_I could not say that 
 /T,T i^H\ y°'", th^^ n™e of anyone about that age. 
 (Mr. Booth.) I should not think there are many. Yet 
 one has se3n cases from time to time where they have 
 died at 30 years of age, and possibly slightly younger. 
 
 i call to mind now ^a man named who 
 
 worked with me at' Messrs. Meakins', at Tunstall', who 
 died from potters' disease, and he was under 30. ' 
 
 ' 9438. But if there are two men suff'sring from pot- 
 ters' asthma with phthisis added to it, who are work- 
 ing m the same shop, it is quite possible, is it not, 
 that one might have infected the other with ordinary 
 consumption ?— I should think so. 
 
 9439. You have recognised all those .conditions, have 
 you ?— Yes. (Mr. Parhes.) But I should say a man 
 would more readily contract it than if he was in a good 
 state of health. 
 
 9440. But the age is much younger than is common 
 with ordinary cases. Would you regard it as an im- 
 possible condition to fix a limit of age at which a 
 person should oome under the schedule— say fibroid 
 phthisis occurring in a .person over 40 years of age ? — 
 That is a matter we have not gone into, though Mr. 
 Booth and myself have talked it over. 
 
 9441. That would limit any dismissals to persons 
 over that age? — {Mr. Booth.) Yes. 
 
 9442. Or that there should be no claim under, say, 
 20 years, of working as a potter. I understand you 
 have not considered those aspects of the question? — 
 (Mr. Parhes.) No, we have not. One doctor tells us 
 we_must not place too much reliance on the names oi 
 dis'sases in this connection. Another doctor, and a 
 very responsible man, too, said there are certainly a 
 large number of cases of bronchitis due to potters' 
 disease. With regard to the flint, a doctor who knows 
 the district and the trade, said that in a place where 
 a large amount of flint is being used you get the fibroid 
 phthisis cases, but when you have to deal with the 
 ordinary clay you will probably get chronic bronchitis. 
 We do not gelt a certificate scarcely at' Burslem specify- 
 ing fibroid phthisis. Many of the oases are classed 
 with the bronchitis cases or other respiratory diseases. 
 
294. 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 THIRTY-SECOND DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, \^th March 1907. 
 
 PEESENT I 
 
 Mr. Henet Cunynghame, c.b. 
 Professor Cliffoed Allbtttt, r.B.s 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samttel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Fhank Elliott- {Secretary). 
 
 Mr. R. Smillie, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. B. 
 Smillie, 
 
 19 Mar. 1907. 
 
 9443. (Chairman.) Are you the president of the 
 Lanarkshire Miners' County Union and of the Scottish 
 Miners' Federation, and a member of the Executive 
 Committee of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 9444. Do you attend on behalf of those bodies to 
 give evidence before this Committee? — ^That is so. 
 
 9445. With regard first to miners' nystagmus, are 
 you of opinion that that is a trade disease for which 
 compensation ought to be paid? — I am. I think, if 
 not entirely oonfijied to miners, that they are par- 
 ticularly affected by it, and I think it arises largely 
 through working underground in unnatural positions, 
 lying on their sides, and so on, and that the artificial 
 light is very insufficient. 
 
 9446. Have you many cases of it in Lanarkshire? — 
 We have quite a number of cases in the central dis- 
 tricts of Lanarkshire — in what are called the fiery 
 districts. 
 
 9447. Do the men recover if they are away from their 
 work for a long time? — In some cases I have known 
 them, oome to the surface and work for a time, and 
 they have recovered and started underground again. 
 
 9448. And have had no relapse ? — And had nc 
 relapse. They usually start again in pits where tho 
 naked light is used. 
 
 9449. Is it easy, do you think, to tell when a man 
 is really incapacitated by nystagmus, because a man 
 might have it in a mild form and go on working for 
 years, might he not ? — I do not think a layman could 
 tell very easily, but I think a doctor working in % 
 mining district could tell easily whether a man is 
 incapacitated or not. 
 
 9450. (Professor Allbutt.) Supposing you have two 
 men, one with slight nystagmus and the other 
 with very marked nystagmus, might not the man 
 with slight nystagmus have genuinely a good deal 
 of suffering, so much indeed as to amount to in- 
 capacity ; whereas the man with a large amount of 
 nystagmus might not feel ill at all ? — I do not know 
 sufficient about the subject to give an opinion upon 
 that. 
 
 9451. This variability would be a difficult element to 
 deal with in regard to malingering, would it not? — 
 Yes ; I think to a very great extent the doctor might 
 require to be led by the patient's statement. 
 
 9452. Now there is no great temptation to malinger, 
 but if the temptation were considerable a doctor might 
 be placed, might he nut, in a much more difficult 
 position ? — He might. 
 
 9453. Would you leave the matter entirely to the 
 physician to judge? — I would. I am strongly of 
 opinion that there are only a very small percentage 
 of our people who would be likely to malinger. 
 
 9454. Do you mean that they are better than human 
 nature generally ? — No ; I mean that human nature is 
 sufficiently good generally. I have formed that opinion 
 after close connection with our people. I have known 
 men^ receiving compensation and at the same time 
 receiving money from a friendly society which 
 amounted to their wages who have oome to us and 
 asked to be allowed to resume work again, even when 
 t^e doctors said they thought they should not. 
 
 9455. (Mr. Cunynghame.) There is this to be said, 
 is there not, that a man does not like living long 
 even on half wages? What would half wages come to 
 roughly with you, taking an average man ? — Fourteen 
 shillings a week. 
 
 9456. Supposing 'him to be a man desirous of 
 malingering, even then he would pause, I suppose, 
 before wishing to live on 14s. a week rather than 
 28s. ?— I think so. 
 
 9457. We may count on that, I suppose, as a factor'* 
 ■ — I think he would be terribly foolish to attempt to 
 live on 14s. a week if he could earn twice that amount. 
 
 9458. We know there are men who will live in. a 
 union workhouse when they ought to be working in 
 the mines ? — I think there are very few cases of thar 
 kind. 
 
 9459. (Dr. Legge.) Is there a consensus of opinion 
 amongst the men that once a man has suffered from 
 the symptoms of nystagmus he should not go back to 
 work under ground ? — No. 
 
 9460. You have mentioned oases in which men, trr 
 your knowledge, have gome back ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9461. But do not you know that it is the practice of 
 all the miedical men to forbid a man, who has con- 
 sulted them for symptoms due to' nystagmus, working 
 under ground?. — I have been told by our own eye 
 specialist that they on all occasions advise the men 
 not to go under ground againj but I know that the 
 men do so, because if they recover sufficiently to begin 
 the work tinder ground again they can earn more 
 money than by working on the surface. 
 
 9462. Then they are not disabled in cases like that 
 because they cannot do the work, but simply because 
 the doctor says they must not work under ground? — 
 Yes. 
 
 9463. (Professor Allbutt.) In your dist:rict a man has 
 a good chance, I suppose, of being able to get into a 
 better-lighted pit ? — Yes, they can change from closed- 
 light pits to open-light pits. 
 
 9464. (Chairman.) Nystagmus takes years to de^ 
 velop, does it not J— I think it does. 
 
 9465. Have you considered at all who ought to pay 
 the compensation if a man is suffering and incapaci- 
 tated ? — I have thought the matter over, and the con- 
 clusion in my mind is that it is very difficult .to fix 
 who should pay the compensation, but naturally if 
 compensation was paid it would have to be paid by 
 the employer in whose eiaployment the person was 
 at the time the nystagmus developed to the point at 
 which the man could not work any longer. 
 
 9466. That would throw a rather heavy charge on 
 that particular employer. Do not you think there 
 is some danger that the employers might have the 
 colliers' eyes examined to see whether they were suffer- 
 ing from nystagmus, and if they were, to. discharge them' 
 before they were incapacitated ? — I think there is s 
 probability that that might be done. 
 
 9467. Do you think that in the interests of the 
 men it would be better for them to have compensation 
 with that risk than not to have compensation? — T 
 think it would be better that they should get com. 
 pensation and take that risk. I do not think it would 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 295 
 
 be correct to say that any particular employer would 
 Tim more risks than other employers, because the 
 men shift from colliery to colliery, and each employer 
 vould be taking the same risk. Therefore no one 
 employer would have more than the number he was 
 entitled to of pers(jps who were affected with nystag- 
 mus. 
 
 9468. Unless some employers adopted the system of 
 medical exanijnwtion and rejected such men and they 
 soughD employmeoit with others ?— Then if othera 
 accepted them without medical examination it would 
 fall more heavily upon those employers. 
 
 9469. But your ovsm view is, is it, that it is 
 better to take th© risk of such discharges than not 
 to have the compensation ? — I think it is. 
 
 9470. With regard to beat hand, beat knee, ard 
 beat elbow, do you have many oases? — I have known 
 a good many cases in my experience. The Scottish 
 iterm for it is " bursed hand." 
 
 9471. Is beat elbow frequent? — It is not very 
 frequent with us. I have known cases of men 
 being off work with it. 
 
 9472. Are they off work from any of these three in- 
 juries for more than a week occasionally ? — Yes, I have 
 linown men off with beat hand eight or ten weeks, 
 when they have had to get it opened by a doctor. 
 
 9473. With regard to miner's asthma, are you of 
 •opinion that the inhalation of coal dust causes any 
 disease of the lungs? — I think it tends to injure the 
 ■lungs and make the miner more susceptible to asthma. 
 
 9474. But the asthma itself is the ordinary form 
 of asthma from which other persons suffer. I suppose? 
 — Yes ; but it is more prevalent amongst miners, 
 ■because of the impurities of the atmosphere which they 
 have to breathe. 
 
 9475. Do you think it would be possible in any given 
 <case to say whether the asthma was due to the man's 
 employment or whether it was not ? — It is quite clear 
 on many occasions. Men work for a time in an 
 impure atmosphere Where they themselves are quite 
 aware of the fact that if they continue working under 
 those conditions for a number of months they will 
 have an attack of asthma which may develop into 
 'Chronic asthma. 
 
 9476. Is th© impurity of the atmosphere of which 
 you speak due to dust or due to foul air ? — Chiefly 
 to foul air. 
 
 9477. Do' you think there is any miners' disease 
 which is distinctly due to dust, as grinders' disease 
 is distinctly due to steel dust or stone dust 1 — I do 
 Tiot think so. 
 
 9478. You dO' not think there is any miners' phthisis 
 like potters' phthisis? — No; I think coal dust is so 
 light that it has not any effect upon the lungs. 
 
 9479. You do not find any large proportion cf 
 miners suffering from phthisis, do you ? — No, not a 
 large proportion. 
 
 9480. But you think, do you, that asthma is a disease 
 to which they are specially liable owing to the foul 
 «ir which they inhale ? — I do ; and I think it is also 
 ■encouraged by the fact that they are very hot when 
 working underground, and sweating when they come 
 to the surface, and the sudden cooling must encourage 
 the disease. 
 
 9481. (Professor AUbutt.) On an average we will 
 ■assume tha-t miners a.re more apt to get a sort of 
 -senile bronchitis than other people, but it is a very 
 difficult thing, is it not. to apply it to any particular 
 case and say, " Here is A. B. Is A. B.'s asthma due 
 to his employment, or is it merely an instance of a 
 very prevalent affection amongst the public in 
 -general? — I have no doubt in my own mind that a 
 very large proportion of cases of asthma could be 
 traced directly to the employment and to the con- 
 •ditions under which the men are working. 
 
 9482. Will you tell me how?— I have known some 
 parts of a colliery in which it was well known to all 
 the men that the ventilation was insufficient, and 
 that there were accumulations of black damp, and 
 1 have known a large proportion of the men who 
 worked steadily ini that section being laid up with 
 ■asthma. 
 
 9483. A larger proportion than were engaged in other 
 parts of the same mine ?— Yes. I have known mines^ 
 which were notoriously badly ventilated where a 
 Clumber of the men have succumbed to asthma. 
 
 Mr. R. 
 Smillie. 
 
 do^Z't^',fk*^TV^ I*^,^^" "^^""^ °^ discrimination, 
 ao you think f— I do not know of any. 
 
 9485. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Of course there are -t 
 
 great ma^y other trades and industries in the co^try '^ ^^'- '^'^■ 
 
 are there not, where people suffer from bad air? For 
 
 instance, take milliners shut up in rooms and post 
 
 9486 It is CO, is it not ?-Yes, but not to anything 
 Uke the same extent that we meet with it in mines 
 veiy otten m mines you find men working— I myself 
 have been working-in a place where you could 
 scarcely keep a light alight because of the presence 
 
 9487. We know a lamp will go out easily, where a 
 man could work comfortably, I suppose?— I would 
 not care to go on working very long where a lamp 
 would not burn. 
 
 9488. Has not that condition of things been 
 enormously altered ?— The conditions have been im- 
 proved enormously, especially in the larger mines, 
 but in the smaller mines, and in the mines "vvhioh 
 are now becoming exhausted, the presence of COj is 
 continually with them, coming from th© old disused 
 workings. 
 
 9489. Is not that a question rather for a stricter 
 enforcement of mining rules than for putting it dowii 
 as a disease applicable to all mines ? Is not it a 
 question rather for improving the conditions than to 
 put it down as a disease incident to the whole trade ? — 
 I think not where blasting is going on with high 
 explosives. 
 
 9490. But that is another gas, is it not? — I Lhink 
 there is far less miner's asthma arising from th© gas 
 with which we are now dealing — from CO, — and ae- 
 ficient ventilation than there was thirty years ago. I 
 have been brought up all my days practically in a 
 mining district, and during the past thirty-five years, 
 and even now, I can point to a considerable number 
 of people who are physically strong, and who are 
 willing and anxious to work, but who are laid aside, 
 and have been for years and years, with asthma, 
 
 Eerbaps, at forty years of age. My own brother-in-law 
 as not worked for nine years, although he is strong 
 enough physically, but he cannot work because of 
 asthma arising out of his employment as a miner. 
 
 9491. On the other hand, there is a certain amount 
 of asthm.a which is common to all the population, is 
 there not ? — I quite admit that ; but what I am dealing 
 with is cases of asthma which clearly arise out of the 
 employment of the person, and to me it seems that if 
 a person has any disease which incapacitates him 
 from his employment, and clearly arises from his em- 
 ployment, it should be treated as an accident. 
 
 9492. (Chairman.) Do you think it would be possible 
 to prove these cases in a court of law ? — Many of them. 
 Our local doctors would be prepared at any time to 
 go into court and clearly prove certain cases where 
 they knew the men had for a time been working in a 
 vitiated atmosphere. 
 
 9493. (Professor Allhutt.) There are other contri- 
 butory cajuses, ar© there not, such as great changes 
 of temperature? In certain mines where there 
 is an accumulation of CO, I suppose the air is stagnant 
 and warm? — No; where there are bodies of CO, the 
 air is usually colder. 
 
 9494. Putting it generally, I suppose there is a very 
 great deal of exposure to extreme changes of tempera- 
 ture in coming out of the pit whilst sweating, and so 
 on ? — That is so. 
 
 9495. The temperature being much higher down the 
 pit, and, I suppose, the deeper the pit, the hotter it is ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 9496. Would you say the depth of a pit had any- 
 thin'' to do with the development of bronchitis or 
 asthma ?— Really, I oould not say. 
 
 9497. Would not dressing-rooms on the bank where 
 the men could turn in and have a rub down and change 
 their clothes be beneficial?— Yes, it would be a very 
 good thing for them. 
 
 9498. As a medical man, I would suggest that the 
 disease may be due to changes of temperature rather 
 than to CO,, and do you not think a provision of that 
 kind would very greatly reduce the liability to the dis- 
 ease?— I think it would very largely reduce liabihty 
 to rheumatism and asthma. 
 
296 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. R. 
 SmWic. 
 
 19 Mar. 1907. 
 
 9499. (Mr. Cunynghame.) If a man is working in a 
 very hot place, and lie is going to come up afterwards 
 into the cold air, prudence dictates that he should 
 put on some warm clothing; but supposing ho does 
 not and gets some complaint through it, you could 
 hardly call that a trade disease, could you ? Take, for 
 instance, a cabman who persistently never wore a great 
 coat at all and get rheumatism, could you say the 
 rlieumatism was necessarily a cab trade disease? — If 
 he never wore a great coat while other people did for 
 protection you could hardly say it was due to cab 
 driving ; but the position here is that a miner comes 
 out of a hot pit, hie shirt and drawers and trousers 
 are wet with sweat, and he may have to walk two miles 
 home on a frosty day and by the time' he gets home 
 he is shivering with cold. 
 
 9500. If he had a good great coat to put on at the 
 surface it would preserve him, I suppose ? — Un- 
 doubtedly it would. 
 
 9501. As a fact, they do not have that protection, 
 do they ? — In some districts where they have to walk 
 a considerable distance to their work they very often 
 carry with them waterproofs or overcoats, and leave 
 them on the surface and get them when they come 
 up again to protect them either from the cold weather 
 or the wet weather. 
 
 9502. With regard to the question of baths, are you 
 aware that in Germany they have baths for the miners ) 
 —Yes. 
 
 9503. I have heard it said that it is better for the 
 men to bathe at home, and that they are less likely 
 to get chills after their bath, and that that custom is 
 preferred by our people. Do you think our miners, if 
 baths were provided on the surface, would prefer them 
 to having baths at home, not considering tJie question 
 of expense ? Which do you think is best, for a man to 
 bathe when he oomes up from the mine or bathe when 
 he gets home? — It would be a thousand times better 
 if he bathed when he came up from the mine and 
 shifted his clothes — if he had two sets of clothes, one 
 for mining and another when he came up. As a. 
 matter of fact, not five per cent, of the Scottish miners 
 have a bath at home. They wash merely in a tub 
 or a basin of some sort ; they merely wash their face 
 and neck and breast and arms. 
 
 9504. Are you aware that in many parts of England 
 miners do take baths ? — It is not at all common in 
 Scotland. I know that not five per cent of the 
 Scottish miners have baths unless they go to the 
 public baths, and I know that very often they, go 
 home and do not change their clothing for perhaps an 
 hour or two hours. If there were baths at the pits' 
 mouths it might take a few years to get them to use 
 them, but I am sure they would ultimately use them, 
 and it would be beneficial to their health. 
 
 9505. On the whole the health of miners is 
 decidedly good, is it not ? — I do not agree altogether 
 with the statistics that are given. The death rate 
 would lead to that conclusion, but I do not think if 
 the percentage of sickness was taken into considera- 
 tion and the number of men laid up from time to 
 time with rheumatism and bronchitis, the health of 
 the miner will come out better than that of men 
 employed in other trades. 
 
 9506. If you call rheumatism a trade disease we 
 should have it in a great many trades, should we not 1 
 — In many mines miners work in water, and stand in 
 ice-cold water sometimes up to the knees for the 
 whole of their day's work of eight or nine hours. In 
 other oases water is raining down from the roof on 
 them, and they are not ten minutes at work before 
 they are wet through with ice-cold water. 
 
 9507. Those cases are exceptional, are they not ? — 
 Yes, 'but in many collieries which are newly opened 
 out it is a common thing to find men coming out of 
 the pits, perhaps ten or twenty of them, who are 
 drenched from the head to the heels. 
 
 9508. Still to put rheumatism down as .a trade 
 disease for miners seems a strong order, does it not 1 
 — If it could be proved that it arose out of their em- 
 ployment I think they are entitled to compensation. 
 I do not want to say it is by any means confined to 
 miners, but what we say is that if the committee are 
 satisfied that rheumatism does arise from employment 
 in mines, and the men are incapacitated from 
 rheumatism contracted during their employment, 
 mining or any other employment, then it should be ^ 
 scheduled. 
 
 9509. You do not think the disease scheduled ought 
 to be in some respects peculiar to the employment! — 
 No, I do not think so, because I think it is more pre- 
 valent amongst farm servants than amongst miners, 
 
 9510. With regard to diseases resulting from fumes 
 from high explosives, they would be peculiar, would 
 they not? — Yes. 
 
 9511. Could yon give any information with regard! 
 to that ? Certain explosives are more dangerous than 
 ethers, are they not ? — All the high explosives are 
 more dangerous than the powder — the low explosive — 
 but I could hardly particularise which of the high. 
 explosives are the worst. I believe that dynamite- 
 nitro-glycerine in its earliest form was one of the worst. 
 
 9512. That only occurs where the ventilation is> 
 rather bad, does it not, .and if the ventilation is good,, 
 hardly tnuugh fumes remain to do harm? — It all 
 depends on the amount of shooting. I was down a. 
 pit a few days ago where they were shooting from, one- 
 end of the place to the other nearly all day, so that 
 the air could not be kept clear of the fumes, and men. 
 were complaining of sore heads, .and ultimately in some; 
 cases they had to be taken home and lie up for a 
 short time. 
 
 9513. What do you mean by a sore head ? — A paia 
 in the head — a headache. 
 
 9514. It does not incapacitate men for a very long 
 time, does it 1 — ^No, it does not, but the effects arise- 
 afterwards and develop into miners' asthma. 
 
 9515. Are you sure of that ? — I am absolutely -con- 
 vinced of it from my own experience, i I have known, 
 men before reaching the age of forty-five, who are- 
 otherwise physically strong, and who did not seem 
 to be predisposed to asthma in their youth, who ha<i 
 been using high explosives, who have taken asthma. 
 
 9516. {Chairman.) Are the men incapacitated for 
 more than a week by it ? — I have known them hardly 
 able to walk out at times, but within a week they have- 
 been able to resume their work. 
 
 9517. How many years would a man be able to work 
 with rheumatism before he was quite incapacitated 7 — 
 Ten or fifteen years. I have known miners sufiering 
 from rheumatism which I feel has arisen out of work- 
 ing in wet places. I have known them work on for 
 fifteen years, and then ultimately they have had to- 
 lay up and could not go to work again. 
 
 9518. Who do you think ought to pay them com- 
 pensation ? — It is very difficult to say. 
 
 9519. Ought it to be the last employer, who takes,, 
 perhaps, great care of his men, and who sees that his. 
 place is properly drained, and that there are no bad 
 conditions, or ought it to be the employer who had 
 taken little care of his men, and who allowed bad con- 
 ditions to prevail, where a man had first contracted the 
 rheumatism twelve or fifteen years before he was in- 
 capacitated? — Clearly it should be the employer ia 
 whose employment the disease was contracted, if he- 
 could be fixed. 
 
 9520. Do you think it practicable to take into a. 
 county court an employer for whom a man has been 
 working fifteen years before, and give evidence as to- 
 the condition of the pit at that time ? — I do not think. 
 it would be practicable. 
 
 9521. Have you any suggestion to make as to how 
 any such disease as rheumatism could be brought 
 within the purview of an Act like the Workmen's 
 Compensation Act? — I think there would be very great 
 difficulties, and it must lead to a considerable amount 
 of litigation. The scheduling of any disease would 
 lead, I think, to a very considerable amount of litiga- 
 tion, but the scheduling of rheumatism, and we want 
 it scheduled if the Committee can do it, would cer- 
 tainly give rise to great difficulties in fixing who should 
 pay the compensation ; it is not like where an accident 
 takes place, because that is clear and distinct. 
 
 9522. Or even in a case like beat hand or beat knee 1 
 — ^Yes, where the disease has arisen within a very short 
 time ; but with regard to rheimatism and .asthma, 
 unless it could be proved th.at they arose from the 
 immediate employment at the time, I think there 
 would be great difficulty, and I quite admit it might 
 b'' a very great hardship on an employer who had 
 taken all the care he could be expected to take to force 
 him. to pay compensation when it might be that tfie 
 injury to the person had arisen before he entered his 
 employment. May I say that at the present time if 
 a miner has lost an eye in the employment of A, and 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 afterwards got employment with B, and may by acci- 
 dent lose the sight of his other eye, B has to pay him 
 compensation for the loss of his sight ; no one taies into 
 consideration that he has lost one eye. There may to 
 the danger that B does not employ him because he has 
 only one, eye, but if he does, and he loses his other 
 ©y®! B IS responsible for the loss of his sight. The 
 same thing applies with regard to a person only having 
 on© hand ; if h© enters employment and loses his other 
 hand the employer is held responsible. 
 
 9523. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is the prevalence of rheu- 
 matism and bronchitis well known amongst our col- 
 liers ? — Yes. 
 
 9524. (Chairman.) Do you think it tends to raise 
 their wages ? — ^I do not think so. 
 
 9525. Have yo^u .anything you wish to state to the 
 Comnutte© with regard to sprained wrist J^There is 
 sometimes a difficulty in knowing the exact time at 
 which sprained wrist may arise. There may be a 
 slight sprain at first, and the miner works for weeks 
 and weeks suffering fram it, but it ultimately gets so 
 acute that he has to stop work altogether. In other 
 cases a sudden jerk when working with a heavy hammer 
 or pick may sprain his wrist. H© may work away for 
 a time, anxious to continue earning money, but ulti- 
 mately he will have to give up. Sprained wrists .are 
 very prevalent amongst miners. They wear a little 
 strap on the wrist, and work away for months and 
 months until they are ultimately forced to give up 
 altogether. 
 
 9526. Have you taken any such cases into court with 
 a view to getting compensation? — W© have had two 
 cases in court within the past six months, but I have 
 no record of them, although I can send them on. We 
 took two cases of sprained wrist into court, and failed 
 in both cases. 
 
 9527. On the ground that it was not an accident 7— 
 Yes. 
 
 9528. (Professor Allbutt.) It was a gradual overwork- 
 ing of the wrist ; I suppose it was cumulative ? — Yes. 
 
 9529. (Chairman.) Would the men recover and be 
 ■able to resume work again 1 — I am not sure about those 
 two cases I have spoken of. In some cases the wrist 
 becomes perfectly strong again, but in other cases it 
 never becomes sufficiently strong to enable a man to 
 follow his employment as a miner. Eighteen years 
 ago I sprained my left wrist while working under 
 ground. I worked away for several weeks, and did 
 not pay much attention to it other than rolling a string 
 round it to keep it tight. I knocked off work for four- 
 teen weeks and went to the infirmary, but I was too 
 late, and they could not put it right, and I ultimately 
 had to give up working "in the pit, and even now I 
 could not follow the employment of a miner. 
 
 9530. Was that a matter of slow growth? — No, it 
 was done Just at once; it was a slip of the hammer, 
 but it was not sufficiently serious at the time, I 
 thought, to justify me in stopping work. I worked 
 away, and it would not have been counted an accident. 
 
 9531. Do cases ever occur in which men go into the 
 mines who are really not physically suited to be miners 
 because of weak wrists, and after a time their wrists 
 break down through the strain of the work ? — I doubt if 
 there are cases of the kind ; there may be cases where 
 the wrist is weak, and, of course, the miner's work 
 means a great strain on the wrist and arm?. 
 
 9532. Do you think that it would be a right thing 
 to require an employer to pay compensation. 
 
 297 
 
 perhaps for the whole of a man's life who was in- m 
 
 capacitated through having a weak wrist?_I do no P f%r 
 
 Sobabnit:'^"'.w' ""'"'''^r^ *h^* h- should ^"^e ''■^'''■ 
 ^«?+l !- ^ r?^*u^ person's wrist would recover suffi- 19 Mar. 1907. 
 
 ciently to enable him to follow some employment, if 
 
 not mining, but if the injuiy to the wrist Irose ou 
 ot his employment, then I think the employer in whose 
 employ he was at the time of his injury should com- 
 pensate him, and if necessary compensate him for 
 Jite If fie is unable to work because of that injury 
 just as if he had lost his sight or his hand. 
 
 9533. Do you think it would be possible to prove 
 that weakness of th© wrist was due to the employment 
 and was not constitutional ? Do you think cases occur 
 m which that could be proved ?— Undoubtedly. 
 
 9534. Supposing a man had been working for several 
 years .and had not suffered from his wrist, and after- 
 wards did suffer, do you think that would be sufficient 
 proof that the weakness to the wrist was due to the 
 employment ?— I think so. 
 
 9535. (Br. Legge.) Would you be content to limit 
 your claim to cases where there were active signs of 
 inflammation of the wrist? — ^No. 
 
 9536. If a person has a sprained wrist he will hav« 
 a swelling there which can b© seen, I suppose? — Not 
 necessarily. 
 
 9537. He would in the case of a distinct sprain 
 — not, perhaps, in th© case of a strain. Do you in- 
 clude strain under the word sprain ? — The wrist I have 
 been referring to — I do not know whether I am correct 
 in oalUng it sprained wrist — does not show any out- 
 ward sign at all. In some cases some of the sinews, 
 get up, and there is a swelling. 
 
 9538. Then there would be something definite to go 
 upon? — Yes, that is easily distinguished, and the 
 doctors can at once discover it. In my own case there 
 is one of the little bones out of place, but you could 
 not see it on the surface. I worked for several weeks 
 with it out, and they put it in, but it did not stay in, 
 though it did not show any signs. 
 
 9539. (Mr. Cunynghame.) That would be an accident, 
 I should think, would it not? — ^It would not be held 
 so in court. 
 
 9540. (Chairman.) Why not? — If a person suddenly 
 twists his wrist, and a little bone comes out, and he 
 works away for weeks afterwards, though in pain, h© 
 would be told when he went to court, in the first place, 
 that the employer had had no notice when the accident 
 took place, in the next place he would not be able to 
 prove exactly when it took place, and it would be 
 held by the court that it was not an accident. 
 
 9541. (Professor Allbutt.) Have you any medical 
 evidence which you could produce from any doctor 
 who is familiar with these sprained wrists? — 
 The doctor in our own district is very familiar with 
 them. 
 
 9542. (Chairman.) Could there not be similar in- 
 juries to other parts of the body ? — Yes, there could. 
 
 9543. Do they occur ? — The men who convey th© coal 
 from the coal face to the bottom often strain their ankles 
 severely by a sudden twist, but that, I think, would! 
 be held to be an accident. I do not know that there 
 is any sprain of other parts of the body which comes 
 on gradually, as a sprained wrist sometimes does. 
 
 9544. If you wish to submit any further evidence, 
 medical or otherwise, with regard to strained wrist,, 
 will you communicate with the Secretary to the Com- 
 mittee ?— -Yes. 
 
 Mr. W. E. Haevet, m.p., called and examined. 
 
 9545. (Chairman.) Are you the secretary of th« 
 Derbyshire Miners' Union? — ^Yes. 
 
 9545. Are you also connected with th© Miners' 
 Federation ?— Yes. 
 
 9547. What is ,tout position 7 — I aim on th© executive 
 committee. 
 
 9548. Are you speaking on behalf of those bodies 
 here to-day ? — ^Yes ; I am appointed by them. 
 
 9549. What miners' diseases, do you think, ought 
 to be included in the Schedule to th© Workmen's Com- 
 pensation Act ? — They are various. Th© one w© suffer 
 most from in our county and in th© Midlands is 
 nystagmus. 
 
 9550'. Will you give a list of the diseases to which 
 419 
 
 you wish to draw the attention of the Committee? — Mr. W. E. 
 There is what is called the housemaid's knee, caused llarvey, M.p, 
 
 by kneeling on the coal in the thin seams. It hardens 
 
 the knee, and sometimes the dust gets into the flesh, 
 and we have terrible cases of the kind. 
 
 9551. (Professor Allbutt.) In ©very case the knee is 
 hardened, is it not P — Yes. 
 
 9552. (Chairman.) Can you giv© me the list of 
 diseases? — Then there is asthma, as the result of the 
 inhalation of coal dust, and there is what some people 
 call anaemia, caused by working in water and handling 
 a pick. That is the result of working in what is called 
 " ochrey " water in our county. 
 
 9553. Is beat hand another disease ? — That would 
 be the right designation. Then bronchial complaints 
 
 2 P 
 
298 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 J/r. ir. E. 
 
 Harrcy, 
 
 M 1'. 
 
 19 Mar. 1907 
 
 are very prevalent, as the result of working in high 
 temperature. 
 
 9554. Then it is nystagmus, beat hand, beat knee, 
 and asthma and bronchitis about which you wish to 
 rpeak, is it ? — Yes. 
 
 9555. With regard to nystagmus, do you have cases 
 of men returning to work cured after having had it ? — ■ 
 We do if we put them to work on the surface. Perhaps 
 we have tested this more than anybody else, and I do 
 not know of any county which has tested it as much as 
 we have. We have had 524 men examined who were 
 working with lamps, .and 573 men who were working 
 with candles. No doubt you have heard of Dr. Court, 
 the specialist, whom we asked to take this matter up. 
 I went round with him and examined the men who 
 worked with lamps and the men who worked with 
 candles, and out of the number who worked with lamps 
 we found 160 bad cases of nystagmus. We examined 
 381 stallmen, 31 holers, 62 loaders, 7 headers, 3 putters, 
 29 pony drivers, and 11 daymen. 
 
 9556. Were they taken haphazard ? — Yes ; we in- 
 vited the branches to call a meeting of the men, and 
 that Dr. Court and I attended, and the men who came 
 were all examined, no selection being made. 
 
 9557. Was it known that the meeting was for the 
 purpose of examining the men's eyes ? — Yes. 
 
 9558. Then the men who had nothing the matter with 
 their eyes probably did not attend ? — Yes they did 
 attend ; as the report shows, 524 attended, and 
 out of the 524 working with lamps 145 stallmen had 
 nystagmus and 54 had photophobia, which is another 
 name for dread of light. There were also 117 who had 
 night blindness. 
 
 9559. I suppose that every person in the village who 
 had anything the matter with his eyes would come to 
 that meeting, while a considerable number who had 
 nothing the matter with their eyes did not come to 
 the meeting. You did not examine all the men em- 
 ployed in the collieries, did you? — No. 
 
 9560. You would not suggest, would you, there was 
 the same proportion throughout the whole of the 
 Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire collieries? — I would. 
 
 9551. Would you say that one-third or one-fourth 
 of the whole of the colliers suffered from nystagmus ? — 
 Yes, in degree, of course. It is very common for you 
 to see men when they go into a room glaring — they 
 cannot bear the light at all. 
 
 9562. How many of these men would be incapaci- 
 tated from working ? — Not many of them ; their suffer- 
 ing is at home. I have known of miners who have to 
 be led by their wives when they go out on a dark 
 night. 
 
 9563. {Mr. Cunynghame.) But still they work, do 
 uiey? — Yes, they work; they heem to oe Detter in the 
 pit than they are out of it. 
 
 9564. {Professor Allbutt.) They have got used to the 
 gloom, I suppose? — Yes. Then we examined 573 
 men who used naked lights. They have what they 
 call in the county vernacular a flaming lamp with a 
 big wick, which gives a three-candle power light. We 
 examined those men who used that light, .and these 
 were the details : —Stallmen using torchlamps, 200 ; 
 stallmen using candles, 256 ; holers using torch lamps, 
 21 ; holers using candles, 23 ; loaders using torch 
 lamps, 7 ; loaders using candles, 46 ; deputies using 
 lamps (safety) in candle pits, 10; daymen, 7; cor- 
 porals in caiidle pits, 2 ; underground manager in 
 candle pit, 1 ; total, 573. As to these, we found 5 stall- 
 men only out of the 200 using torch lamps suffered from 
 nystagmus ; only 1 holer amongst the 21 had nystag- 
 mus, but all these men had the disease very slightly, 
 and none of them suffered from photophobia or night 
 blindness. 
 
 9565. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Out of the 573 how many 
 were suffering ? — Five stallmen out of 200 using torch 
 lamps suffered from nystagmus. 
 
 9566. And how many of the others? — ^One holer 
 amongst the 21 also had nystagmus. They acquired 
 the complaint in safety lamp collieries, and had nearly 
 got well while using naked lamps. 
 
 9567. {Chairman.) Then is it your conclusion that 
 men suffer hardly at all where they use naked lamps 
 and a great deal where they use safety lamps? — That 
 is so. On purpose to test this more fully we went to 
 the Forest of Dean, outside our district altogether, 
 and examined some 50O men, and did not find a case 
 
 of nystagmus, because they worked with candles — 
 naked lights. 
 
 9568. Is it proved, then, in your opinion, that ny- 
 stagmus is due to the safety lamps ? — Very largely ; 
 there may be other causes, but I do not know of them. 
 
 9660. {Professor Allbutt.) Do not you think it would 
 be possible to devise a safety lamp which would 
 minimise the risk of nystagmus ? — I think what 
 is needed is an increased light. Tfhe differenjce 
 between a naked light and a lamp is that you can put 
 a naked light anywhere, you can suit the position to 
 the eye, but the lamp you cannot, because you must 
 hang it somewhere, and there are shado^rs all round 
 it ; it must be placed far away from the swing of the 
 pick, because you might injure the gau2«. 
 
 9570. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Have you seen electric 
 lamps in use at all? Do you think they would be of 
 any use with regard to nystagmus ? — I have not seen 
 them used in mines ; I do not know that they are in 
 use. I might say that I have worked twenty-five years 
 in a pit myself, actually hewing ooal, and I have had 
 nystagmus, but I never had it until I worked -with a 
 lamp. I have had to be led by my wife to chapel. I 
 could not go without my wife's assistance. 
 
 9571. {Chairman.) Have you quite recovered now? — 
 Yes, quite recovered. I have no hesitation in saying 
 that it was the lamps which caused it. Of course, 
 there are medical men who have not gone into the 
 question who set up the theory that it was caused by 
 the cutting of coal, but whether a man works with a 
 lamp or a candle he works under the same conditions. 
 
 9572. {Professor Allbutt.) How long did you work 
 with a safety lamp before you began to have 
 nystagmus ?^Mine, perhaps, was a unique case. I 
 was working in the solid cutting, a six-foot road, not 
 in a wall, and my lamp had to hang back some three 
 feet away from me to be out of danger, and the strain 
 on the eye and the limited light I had caused ny- 
 stagmus. 
 
 9573. How long did it take to develop the disease? — 
 I should be developing it two years. 
 
 9574. Was the oscillation of the eye very consider- 
 able ? — It was. 
 
 9575. Did the incapacitation gradually increase, or 
 did it come on suddenly? — It came on gradually. My 
 family called my attention to the fact that I was blink- 
 ing my eyes, and when I came into a light I seemed 
 to stagger. 
 
 9576. Would you say that the growth of the ny- 
 stagmus and the incapacitation were parallel, that 
 they went pari passu ? — Scarcely so. I felt it growing 
 on me, but I was able to do my work until I had to 
 go to the manager eventually and say : " I cannot go 
 on with this work any longer, the strain is too great 
 on my eyes ; I must have a different job." He saw 
 it at once, and found me a different job. 
 
 9577. Would you agree that it would be very diffi- 
 cult from the inspection of a man's eyes to determine 
 the degree of his nystagmus? — I quite agree. 
 
 9578. A man might have the oscillation of the eye 
 considerably, and yet not be incapacitated ? — Quite so. 
 
 9579. (Mr. Cunynghame.) It has been alleged that it 
 is the turning up and the strained position of the 
 eyes that causes the nystagmus. Do you agree with 
 that ? — Noi, I do not, because the man who works with 
 a candle has the same thing to do. 
 
 9580. You maintain, do you, it is caused by the 
 , insufficiency of light ? — Yes. 
 
 9561. Have you loiown of any cases in which men 
 who had got nystagmus in using lamps have got cured 
 by working vpith naked lights ? — Many of them. 
 
 9582. Directly they got the naked light they im- 
 proved, did they 1 — Yes, and eventually got cured ; 
 and even now to-day our club doctors, if they find men 
 who have nystagmus badly order them out of the pit. 
 We have doctors for each pit, we have what is known 
 as our field clubs, and the men have doctors for them- 
 selves, their wives and children, and when the doctor 
 finds a man in an advanced stage of nystagmus he 
 orders him out of the pit, and he goes on to the bank 
 for, say, three months. 
 
 9583. (Chairman.) Do you ever have a case in which 
 a doctor tells a man to oome out of a pit where safety 
 lamps are used and go to a pit where candles are used ? 
 — We have very few candle pits now, but they order 
 theon on to the bank. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 299 
 
 9584. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Can you say how much 
 light a miner's safety lamp gives in proportion to a 
 naked torch? Do you think a miner's safety lamp 
 gives less than one candle power of eifective light? — 
 Yes, by far, and it gets less. You see, your lamp gets 
 dusty, and the light becomes more dim. We have had 
 lamps tested when they have gone in clean and had 
 them tested when they have come out, and the lighting 
 power is considerably reduced. 
 
 9585. Whereas the torch gives about three candle 
 power, the light of a safety lamp is a-good deal less 
 than one candle, is it not? — Yes. 
 
 9586. If there were electric lights used in mines of 
 three or four candle power, and they were made to 
 throw the light upward, do you think nystagmus would 
 disappear ? — Yes, and accidents from falls of the roofs 
 and sides would considerably disappear. 
 
 9587. With regard to beat hand and beat knee, the 
 Committee have had some evidence. Do you wish to 
 say anything about it? — In our mines men have been 
 ruined and unable to work by it. 
 
 9588. What do you call it in your district ? — We call 
 it housemaid's knee. 
 
 9589. Do you have any cases of men suffering from 
 sprained wrist, not through accident, but coming on 
 gradually ?^ Yes, and that prevails in the hard coal 
 seams more than anywhere. I have known it ever 
 since I have been a boy. You find men with straps 
 and worsted tied round their wrists. I have had it 
 myself, and it is brought on by working' in the hard 
 coal. 
 
 9590. Does it prevent men from doing any work at 
 all ? — Yes ; at times for weeks. 
 
 9591. Do you think that it is simply due to their 
 employment, or to a natural weakness of their wrists ? 
 — I think it is due to the nature of the coal. You do 
 not find it among men working in soft coal. 
 
 9592. Is there any visible symptom of the strain on 
 the wrist ? — Sometimes it swells. The general custom 
 with men who have it when they come home is to put 
 their wrist under the tap and let the cold water run 
 on it and bandage it ; then they strap it up. 
 
 9593. {Professor Allhutt.) Is the incapacity due to 
 weakness in the wrist or to pain in the wrist ? — It is 
 due to pain in the wrist. 
 
 9594. {Chairman.) Suppose that were scheduled for 
 compensation under the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act, how could anyone decide whether or. not a man 
 was incapacitated by it? — In some cases I am bound 
 to say it would be very difficult. In some cases the 
 wrist swells considerably ; in others it does not. 
 
 9595. Might not it occur that a man who wanted a 
 holiday on half wages would have a sprained wrist at 
 that time ? — I am pleased to say in our county we 
 have never been charged with malingering. 
 
 9596. {Professor Allhutt.) Would you say that swell- 
 ing or heat about the wrist would suggest rather an 
 accident thaji a sprained condition? — I think not. 
 
 9597. You think it would be quite consistent with 
 the slow and gradual strain, do you? — Yes. 
 
 9598. {Chairman.) Has your society considered what 
 diseases and injuries ought to be scheduled under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act as regards miners?— 
 Yes. 
 
 9599. And they did not include sprained wrist, did 
 they?— They did not include sprained wrist, but we 
 have it, and the Federation Board includes sprained 
 wrist. 
 
 9600. In what way?— They have had the matter 
 talked over, and we decided that it ought to be 
 
 • scheduled. 
 
 9601. We have heard no evidence on the subject of 
 sprained wrist throughout the whole of our inquiry 
 until to-day from Mr. Smillie. With regard to asthma 
 and other lung complaints, do you think that miners 
 suffer from phthisis or consumption through their em- 
 ployment ?— I do not think so. 
 
 9602. Do you think that coal dust acts as an irritant 
 to the lungs ?— I do in the case of bronchitis. 
 
 9603. But it does not set up phthisis as steel dust 
 does amongst grinders, you think ?— I do not think it 
 does. 
 
 9604. Do you think men suffer from bronchitis 
 owing to breathing the dust or breathing the foul air. 
 
 or going from the heat into the cold ?-That needs ex- y,. ,. 'f 
 planation We have some mines which are worked at a LZ'eJ" 
 fairly high temperature and with long travelling roads Tv 
 which are very dusty ; the men perspire very freely, '-^ 
 
 the dust gets on to their lungs, and I should say there 19 Mar. 1907 
 
 are scores of cases which could be proved by the doctors 
 
 m Derbyshire in which the miners suffer more as a 
 class from bronchitis and asthma than anything else. 
 Perhaps that is increased and intensified by the fact 
 that some of the men have to go by mails as far as 
 5, 6 or 10 miles home after coming out of the hot 
 atmosphere. We suffer more from bronchitis and 
 asthma than anything else as a class. 
 
 9605. The symptoms of bronchitis in a miner are no 
 different from the symptoms of bronchitis in anybody 
 else, are they?— They are the same. 
 
 9606. In any given case suppose a man were claim- 
 ing compensation under the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act for asthma, would anyone be able to say whether 
 or not that individual man got his complaint through 
 his employment? — I do not know. I would not like 
 to say " Yes " or " No " to that. I think it must be 
 left to the doctors — the doctors know. 
 
 9607. They know whether or not the men got it 
 through their employment, though the symptoms are 
 just the same, do they? — A doctor in a village knows 
 every man, and he knows every family, and he could 
 tell. 
 
 3. {Professor Allhutt.) Supposing a man to come 
 before me as a medical referee, who said he had 
 bronchitis — if it arose from breathing coal dust or foul 
 gases it would be more or less specific to his employ- 
 ment, but on the other hand, if he had got it by coming 
 out of the pit sweating, wet through, and walking 
 home perhaps a couple of miles in the cold air, which 
 I should consider not specific to his employment, how 
 should I as a medical man be able to decide whether 
 he got his bronchitis from one cause or the other? — I 
 should consider that he was engaged in his work in 
 going to and fro. 
 
 9609. But still there remains the difference in the 
 causation, does there not? — ^Yes, but if he catches 
 bronchitis or asthma, either in working in the pit. 
 or travelling to and from his work, it is in the nature 
 of his employment. 
 
 9610. {Chairman.) Supposing I drive home in a 
 hansom cab from the House of Commons on a cold 
 night after getting heated in debate, and I do not put 
 on an overcoat, and get an attack of some lung trouble 
 should you say that was due to my employment ? — Yes. 
 
 9611. Suppose I did the same thing coming home 
 from the theatre ? — That is another thing. The man is 
 walking backward and forward to get a living ; you 
 are doing it for pleasure. 
 
 9612. {Mr. Cunynqhame.) But he could put on a 
 great coat if he liked. Has he a right to leave his great 
 coat off and charge his complaint to a coalowner? — A 
 great coat for a collier walking three miles is absolutely- 
 absurd from a practical standpoint. 
 
 9613. Men after playing football put un a great coat 
 and tie mufflers round their necks ; why cannot a 
 collier do the same? — There is no comparison at all. 
 Where is a man going to keep his coat ? 
 
 9614. Cannot a man arrange to have his coat kept 
 somewhere? — There is no such thing as an arrange- 
 ment for a great coat at a colliery. A man takes what 
 he has on him down into the pit and brings it up. 
 
 9615. Asthma is common to a great many other- 
 classes of the population, is it not ?— Yes, but it pre- 
 vails more amongst colliers than others. 
 
 9616. But with regard to respiratory diseases, miners 
 are rather healthier; and as to phthisis, they have less- 
 phthisis than any other class of the population. 
 Taking one thing with another they are decidedly as 
 healthy as any other part of the population with regard 
 to respiratory diseases, are they not?— No. 
 
 9617. They may have a little more bronchitis, but 
 considerably less phthisis, have they not ?— And more 
 asthma. 
 
 9618. Yes, a little more bronchitis and asthma, but 
 veiy much less phthisis. If you take it altogether, are 
 not they as favourably situated with regard to respira- 
 tory diseases, taking phthisis and bronchitis together, 
 as any part of the population ? — I do not think so. I 
 am now speaking from my experience and my know- 
 led'^e of my own county and the Slidlands. There is 
 
 2 r 2 
 
300 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE : 
 
 Mr. ir. E. no class of workmen that sufiers from bronchitis and 
 Hanvij, asthma to the extent that miners do. 
 
 ^■^- 9619. And that could be prevented to a large extent 
 19 Mar. 1R07. ^y some reasonable system of great coats to put on 
 after their work, could it not ? — To some extent. 
 
 9620. I mean, if football players after football were 
 to walk home without a muffler and great coat on they 
 would get bronchitis too, would they not ? — Perhaps so. 
 
 9621. It seems difficult to say, does it not, that it 
 is due to the employment when it is really due to walk- 
 ing home without a great coat? Is not it rather un- 
 fair to say that it is due to the employment ? — Then I 
 have to create another difficulty for you to get over. 
 Taking some of our large collieries, there are men who 
 live close to the pit and who have no walking prac- 
 tically — when they get out of it they are in their 
 houses in five or ten m'nutes— and they have it. 
 
 9622. But if you come up hot with a north-east 
 wind blowing, five minutes is quite long enough to 
 cause it, is it not ? If it is reasonable to put on a coat 
 
 it may be reasonable, may it not, to put it on for five 
 minutes? — Quite so, but the fact remains that we 
 suffer from it extensively. 
 
 9623. And the Committee have to consider how far 
 that can be called a disease due to the employment ? — 
 Yes ; there must be that difficulty. I do not wish to 
 underestimate the difficulty you have ; I am only 
 stating facts. 
 
 9624. (Professor Allbutt.) Supposing I were to in- 
 stance the boating men in my own university ; it is a 
 vei-y short way to the boathouee, but those strong young 
 men of 20 years of age or so always put on jackets 
 and mufflers round their necks the moment tihey get 
 out of the boat ? — ^I quite agree with yooi. After being 
 in a hot temperature, walking a considerable distance 
 perspiring freely as they do, if great coats were pro- 
 vided for them it might save many cases of bronchitis 
 and asthma. 
 
 9625. (Chairman.) Are there any other points which 
 you wish to lay before the Committee ? — No. 
 
 Mr. A. O. J. Wilson, l.k.c.p., m.b.c.s., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. A. C. J. 
 Wilson, 
 L.E.C.P., 
 M.E.C.S. 
 
 9626. (Chairman.) Are you Medical Officer of Health 
 for the Thurlstone district ?— Yes. 
 
 9627. And certifying Factory Surgeon for the Peni- 
 stone district, and Medical Officer for the Penistone 
 Union ? — Yes. 
 
 9628. Is that a district in which there are ganister 
 mines and works ? — Yes. 
 
 9629. What is your opinion as to the existence of 
 any disease amongst the miners and workers due to 
 the inhalation of coal dust? — Part of my union dis- 
 trict was taken off about the year 1895, but previous to 
 1895 I noticed in the district several cases of phthisis ; 
 in fact, I attended six oases which were, I think, prob- 
 ably due to ganister working. It was not so much 
 known or talked about then as it is now, and at that 
 time I looked upon it as you would' look upon stone- 
 mason's phthisis. Since then, in the other part of my 
 district, where my private practice has been, and where 
 there are three ganister works, I have not come across 
 any case which I should say was due to ganister work, 
 although I have been in practice there for 30 years. 
 
 9630. Have you come across any cases of fibroid 
 phthisis? — Not that I have particularly noticed. I 
 could not tell you of any special case during the. 30 
 years I have been there. Of course, one cannot remem- 
 ber everything. 
 
 9631. Have you made any post-mortem examina- 
 tions ? — No ; I have never had a case to make one on. 
 
 9632. Are you of opinion that there are districts 
 now contiguous to your district, but not part of it, in 
 which the ganister disease is more prevalent ? — I do not 
 know it now, because that part of my district has 
 been taken off my union and put on to another, and 
 it is out of the range of my private practice. I only 
 know it from report, and I know Dr. Robertshaw, who 
 has reported upon these cases, very well. 
 
 9633. Have you any reason to think that ganister 
 disease may be more prevalent in other places than in 
 your own district ? — Certainly. 
 
 9634. Are the works and mines in your district par- 
 ticularly well ventilated ? — I have been over the mines 
 in my district and they are all wet mines, which, of 
 course, does away with liability to dust. The ganister 
 works are chiefly out in the open air with just a roof 
 on and open side® ; so that there is plenty of ventila- 
 tion. 
 
 9635. There is so much air flowing through that 
 there is no dust for the men to inhale, I suppose ?■ — 
 Nothing except a little in summer. I should like to 
 say that I visited Messrs. Hinchliffe's works last Tues- 
 day, and also Messrs. Joel Bramall's works ; I took 
 
 the trouble to examine some of the miners who had 
 been working there some time, and I can give you the 
 results. I took the men as they came out of the mine 
 at three o'clock. The first was A., 24 years of 
 age. He had been in the mine 12 years, fivei 
 years at the ganister face ; he firee his own shots. He 
 had influenza two years ago ; he has no anssmia, no 
 cough, no shortness of breath, percussion normal, no 
 vocal fremitus, respiration normal, was perfectly 
 sound, and is a football player. The next case was 
 B., 57 years of age, and he h,ad worked in the 
 mine for 39 years ; for 24 years he had worked at 
 the ganister in the mine, and for eight years had been 
 grinding ganister. He had an affection of the eyes 
 nine years since, which kept him away from work 12 
 months. There was no anaemia, no shortness of 
 breath ; he has not been ill during the last eight years ; 
 he has used dynamite in the pit ; he ha? had two 
 attacks of influenza. The movement of the chest is 
 fairly good, no vocal fremitus, percussion normal, 
 respiration at the apices normal, but rales heard in 
 front at the lower lobe of each lung, respiration at the 
 back of the chest good, chest measurement on expira- 
 tion 37 inches, inspiration 38 inches ; takes a quantity 
 of alcohol, and, in fact, gets drunk nearly every week. 
 For that man to have been in a mine 39 years, and to 
 have no signs except a little weakness in front of each 
 lung, is rather remarkable. The next case is that of 
 C. , 34 years of age, and working 22 years in the pit. He 
 has worked underground at ganister all the time, and 
 never been ill ; has no shortness of breath, no anaemia, 
 and no cpugh ; the chest movement was good ; no vocal 
 Iremitus, no dumess on pcicussion ; respiration normai 
 both in front and at back of the lung ; chest measure- 
 ment on expiration 37^ inches, and on inspiration 38g 
 inches ; has been a football player. Those were the 
 first three men I examined as they came out of the pit 
 at Hinchliffe's works. That is a wet mine. Then I 
 went to Messrs. Bramall's works, where the grinding 
 is done in the open air, so that except in the summer 
 there did not seem to be much danger. I examined 
 a man who had been there the longest time — D., 
 42 years of age, has been 21 years at work, 
 healthy-looking man with red face, no shortness of 
 breath, no vocal fremitus, percussion normal, respira- 
 tion normal, and never had any illness. There seemed 
 so little fear of anything at that mine that I only ex- 
 amined him, as he had been there longer than any- 
 body else. At Messrs. Hinchliffe's I asked them to 
 give me a list of their workers, their ages, and the 
 length of time they worked in the mine. All these are 
 private patients of mine, and I cannot say that I know 
 of a single case- of fibroid phthisis amongst them. 
 9636. Was that a wet mine also ? — Yes. 
 
 Mr. Ebnest Neele, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. E. Neele. 9637. (Chairman.) Are you a slate quarry owner? — 
 
 No ; I am the general manager of the Dinorwic Quarry, 
 
 in Carnarvonshire. The quarry is owned by Mr. 
 Assheton Smith. 
 
 9638. How many men are there employed there?— 
 Roughly, 3,000. 
 
 9639. Have you works there for preparing the slates 
 in all stages ? — ^For roofing and slabs. 
 
 9640. Have you got any mills? — Yes, a few. 
 
 9641. About how many men woi'ld be employed in the 
 mills ? — About 150, perhaps. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES, 
 
 301 
 
 W12. Is there mucH dust in those mills ?— There is a 
 oertain amount of dust. 
 
 9643. Do you find the men employed in those mills 
 -suttermg from lung diseases P— No. 
 
 9644. Do not you have any cases, or any remarkable 
 jiumher of oases, of phthisis amongst them?— No, cAr- 
 itainly not. I do not know whether I ought to quality 
 Tthat. There is distinctly an amount of phthisis, which 
 
 is consumption, in the district. That is a fact and 
 there is no doubt about it. ' 
 
 9645. Do you think the slate dust in the quarry or in 
 the mills gives rise to any lung disease P — I do not think 
 «o. 
 
 9646. Have you any statistics of any sick club or 
 .other organisation P — No; there is a hospital at the 
 -quarry, entirely maintained by Mr. Assheton Smith, 
 
 alid a resident doctor- there. 
 
 9647. There has been some evidence given to the 
 .effect that elate dust does give rise to lung diseases. 
 -Have you any arguments to lay before the Committee 
 
 why that disease should not be scheduled foi- compen- 
 .fiation under the Workmen's Compensation Act?— The 
 -only argument I have is that the quarryman lives to a 
 /great age, and I have never heard the complaint made, 
 -and I really do not think it is so. But of course, I am 
 jiot a medical man. I do not know whether the Com- 
 mittee have seen the minutes of the evidence which was 
 -taken at the Departmental Inquiry in 1895 before Mr. 
 Xe Neve Foster, which distinctly showed that without 
 .a post-mortem it could not be proved that any slate 
 -dust entered the lungs. 
 
 9646. .And what you say applies not only to the 
 .quarrymen, but also to the workers in the mills, does 
 it? — Yes ; the mills only form a small part of the work. 
 I have only lately erected two large mills which are 
 being worked with electricity, but before that there 
 -were only 16 tables. 
 
 9649. Is any precaution taken to prevent the dust in 
 the mills pervading the air and entering the lungs of 
 the workers P — No. The quarryman, for his own pur- 
 poses and to keep his saw cool, has a little water running 
 
 on the teeth of the saw, which has the effect also of 
 laying the dust which that saw is throwing up. I 
 
 venture to say that anyone could walk through either 
 'of the mills and not be conscious of the dust unless 
 there was a big gust of wind. 
 
 9650. Is the mill enclosed, or is it open at the sides? 
 ^ — ^There are open. doors, and men passing in and out the 
 •whole tLme. One man might have a block on his table 
 working at it, and another man may be bringing in a 
 "block close to him ; so that there is any amount of fresh 
 -air. 
 
 9651. (Mr. Cunynghame.) According to your descrip- 
 iiion, from the few men you have employed and the 
 •water that is used, one ■would hardly expect to find 
 much asthma or bronchitis or phthisis among your men. 
 But supposing that water was not used with the saws, 
 ■and there was a good deal of dust about in the mills, 
 .you might expect •to find those complaints, would you 
 not ?-T-Of course I cannot say as to that; I only go by 
 what I know. 
 
 9652. By reputation, dust in slate factories is said to 
 %© dangerous P — I have heard the statement made, but 
 I have no proof of it. 
 
 9653. There is a general opinion, is there not, that it 
 is dangerous ?— I have never heard the word Hangerous 
 applied to it. I have heard that the slate dust -will get 
 into the lungs, and no foreign substance is good for the 
 4img. 
 
 9654. Your arguments rather seem to me to make a 
 <ase for considering there is no dajiger in your mills 
 rather than no danger m mills in general. Your evi- 
 dence is rather confined to your own mills and your 
 ■own quarries, is it . not ? — That is all I have know- 
 ledge of. 
 
 madf;„f"? K^"^ f°'''^ experience, a case might be 
 
 TK^'^'^il^Lt't't'^S'^J disease, might it Lt?- 
 
 I am 
 have 79 
 
 The conditions may be different, but as'lar as 
 concerned I should say there is' no risk. I hl.= .. 
 
 Fn^l ?■' ^°^® ?^ "^^""^ ^^^e I'een in the mills, and 
 some working in the rock, and their average age s 72, 
 so that is pretty good proof of what I say. 
 
 9657. Supposing it was shown that in other mUls 
 was a certein amount of respiratory disease from 
 
 there 
 
 tJie slate dust and the disease were scheduled I do not 
 
 see how it would hurt you much?— I 
 
 should I not ? 
 
 should suffer, 
 
 9658. Why would you if none of your men contract 
 the disease?— Human nature is human nature and a 
 man might say, " I have this disease, from tile slate 
 dust "-^there is that danger. 
 
 9659. There is. A man might say so, but it might 
 be a very difficult thing to convince a doctor it 
 was sop — But I fancy it wouLl be a very difficult thing 
 to prove to any judge it was lot so. 
 
 9660. Your view is that it is a case in which the 
 burden of proof should be on the man, is it ?— I think 
 so, because of the healthy appearance of the quarryman 
 generally. If he gets past 40 he lives to a great age. 
 Only a few days ago I pensioned a man who has worked 
 73 years in the quarry, so that it cannot be an un- 
 healthy employment, I think. 
 
 9661. Not as a whole; but dressing the slate is, is it 
 not? From your point of view, if the burden of proof 
 were thro-wn on the man and not on the employer,. it 
 would not hurt you much, would it?— You used the 
 words " dressing the slate." That is different to a saw 
 mill. In dressing the slate the men live to a great age, 
 and you never hear any complaint. 
 
 9662. If the burden of proof was thrown upon the 
 man •fchere would not be very much danger of improper 
 claims being made, so far as your own factory was con- 
 cerned, at all events, would there ? — I am afraid I do 
 not agree. 
 
 9663. Even though the burden of proof were on the 
 man, and the presumption in favour of the employer, 
 and the man had to make out his case affirmatively' 
 would you be afraid ?— I would not be afraid ; I should 
 like tO' see jnstice done to the men as well as to the 
 employer. Of course, if the burden of proof is thrown 
 on the man, you really do assist the employer, to a 
 certain extent. 
 
 9664. In the case of lead, for instance the burden of 
 proof is on the employer. If a man is poisoned •the 
 employer has to show that the man could not have been 
 poisoned in his works ; but supposing it were the reverse 
 with regard to slate, it would not hurt you much, would 
 it? — If the workman •was an honest man and the 
 burden of proof lay on him, I do not think he could 
 prove his case. 
 
 9665. Then it would not hurt you? — It would not 
 under those conditions. 
 
 9666. {JDr. Legge.) The medical men practising there 
 say they find symptoms amongst the men employed in 
 the slate mills and exposed to dust quite different from 
 the symptoms of chronic bronchitis, and so on, in the 
 general population ; if that were so they could say 
 definitely whether any disease was due to the dust or 
 not? — If they made that statement, I presume they 
 can, but it is news to me. 
 
 9667. In that case it would" help your position by 
 making it more certain whether the award would be a 
 right one or not? — ^Yes, if that is so; but the doctor 
 who gave evidence at the inquiry I have referred to in 
 1895 said that he could not prove it •without a post- 
 mortem. 
 
302 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 THIRTY-THIRD DAY. 
 
 Monday, 25th March 190: 
 
 PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hebbeet Samttel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 Mr. Heney CuinrNOHAME, c.b. 
 Professor Clifpobd Aiibtjtt, t.e.s. 
 
 I Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d 
 
 Mr. Feanx Elliott (Secretaryy. 
 
 Mr. J. OwNEE, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. 
 J. Owner. 
 
 •25 Mar. 1907. 
 
 9670. (Chairman.) Are you an Inspector of Fac- 
 tories ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9671. Have you been so for some eight years?— Yes. 
 9672 Are you able to tell the Committee something 
 
 about podeoning from cbrysoidine ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9673. When was it you made an inquiry into this 
 question?— In the latter few months of 1902 and the 
 commencing months of 1903, in the Bristol district. 
 
 9674. What is chrysoidine used for?^Iit is used for 
 colouring the solos of the commoner varieties of boots. 
 
 9675. What dtoes it consist of 2— Chrysoidine is one 
 of the benzene derivatives ; its actual title is meta- 
 diamido-benzene, and it has the chemical formula 
 C 12 H 12 N. It is a very yellowish fine crystalline 
 powder, and the usual method of application is to take 
 about an ounce of the chrysidene powder and mix it 
 in half a pint of hot water, then to that solution la 
 added a small quantity of oxalic acid. 
 
 9676. How is it applied ? — The solution, when oold, 
 is applied to the sole of a boot by either a piece of 
 rag or brush. That results in giving the sole of 
 the boot a very vivid colouring ; it brings it to almost 
 a crimson colour — a very light red. 
 
 9677. Whereabouts did you make your inquiries ?— 
 In the Bristol district in the factories, and also 
 amongst some of the outworkers engaged by the fac- 
 tories. 
 
 9678. Did you find any casesi of injury to health 
 fiom the use of this substance? — There were several 
 cases which I lound had been definitely treated in 
 the Poor Law Infirmary at Bristol. The patients had 
 been attended by Pr. Norgate, who was then in charge ; 
 and I also found several men working in the factories 
 who had suffered from ulceration of the arms and 
 eruptions on the arms and hands. 
 
 9679. Did they all attribute their ailments tO' the 
 use of the sul stance? — Yes. 
 
 9680. Did your investigations confirm that ? — So far 
 ^s I was able to ascertain, the statements of the men 
 were quite corroborative of each other. They all showed 
 the same symptoms — irritation from the splashes of the 
 liquor, and subsequent eruptions' of the forearms, 
 particularly in the joints. 
 
 9681. Were they incapacitated for any length of time 
 from working?' — Several of them, I ascertained, had 
 been detained from work as long as a month owing to 
 their inability to use their arms in the work. 
 
 9682. Were no similar symptoms found in other men 
 engaged in that occupation, but who were not using 
 chrysoidene? — No, there was no similar symptoms 
 among workers in departments where it was not in 
 use. 
 
 9683. Have you come across many similar symptoms 
 anywhere else ? — No ; the Bristol district was the only 
 district I have been to where boots are made to any 
 extent. 
 
 9684. (Mr. Ounynghame.) What is the use of making 
 the soles of boots a bright red colour? — ^There is a 
 demand for that particular colour, I believe, and it 
 is used principally on the poorer qualities of boots 
 to give tiheim a better appearance. 
 
 9685. Is it used on boots for exportation at all ; 
 
 do you know whether we export boots to any extent?— I 
 should rather think these were the heavy class of boots, 
 used in this country. 
 
 9686. Why should not the whole thing be absolutely- 
 forbidden as dangerous to health?— I cannot give a,ny 
 trade reason why it should not. They use other stains^ 
 for other boots, but they have not found a stain whiohi 
 will give this particular shade. 
 
 9687. I cam imagine some dangerous chemicals being; 
 used in trades because the article could not be made 
 without them ; but does not it seem rather extravagant 
 to give a delicate particular shade to a common quality 
 of boots, and to use something poisonous to do it?— 
 Yes, it does. 
 
 9688. It is not as if any export Would be lost by the- 
 disuse of it?— I do not think there is any large ex- 
 portation of these boots. 
 
 9669. (Br. Legge.) Was all the illness that you saw 
 of an eczematous character? — ^Yes. 
 
 9690. When you speak of the joints being affected^ 
 do you mean the folds at the joints ?> — Yes. 
 
 9691. Did you lind thait the arm-pits were also* 
 affected?' — Some of the men complained of swellings; 
 in the under part of the arms, which they put down. 
 to the poison. 
 
 9692. Have you actually seen the eruptions ?— Yes. 
 I cannot say that I ever saw a man with the swellingr 
 but I have actually seen the eruptions on the arms- 
 and hands. 
 
 9693. Were they rashes or were they ulcers ? — ^They 
 looked more like ulcers to me. They were suppurating 
 and sore when I saw them. 
 
 9594. Do you know what the symptoms/ of dinitro- 
 benzol poisoning are?— -No. 
 
 9695. Were there any constitutional symptoms in the- 
 men you saw? — ^Not when I saw them. 
 
 9696. You referred to oxalic acid. Do you think 
 that plays any part in the poisoning? — I do not think 
 so. I think the quantity used is very small. 
 
 9697. Do you know any industries in which oxaUc 
 acid is used on a very large scale without producing 
 symptoms of illness ; in the dyeing trade, for instance ?■ 
 —No. 
 
 9696. (Chairman.) Turning now to your evidence on 
 diseases from which dock-workers suffer in discharging; 
 dusty cargoes, where were you able to investigate- 
 that subject? — ^At Hull, since September last year. 
 
 9699. What cargoes do you think specially cause 
 illness ? — Grain cargoes generally, Russian and Ameri- 
 can wheat, rape seed, barley, and cotton seed ; and in 
 the Indian lineeed there is a large quantity of dust. 
 
 9700. Is there dust in any other cargoes besides graift 
 cargoes? — ^Yes, in the dry phosphates — ^that come in 
 in bulk and in the metalliferous ores. 
 
 9701. Do you attribute illnesses from aU these 
 cargoes to the dust in them ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9702. What symptoms do the men show ? — They have 
 very marked bronchitis ; the chest is affected so that 
 they become physically unable to work, and they have 
 to be treated and remain away from work at least 
 ten to fourteen days, in order to partially recover. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 303 
 
 9703. Do they then come back again and work for 
 a period, and get ill again ? — Yes. 
 
 9704. Does it become chronic after a time? — ^Yes. 
 In the month of February there was a fatal case of 
 gphthisis to one of the workers. He had never worked 
 anywhere else except, in the discharging of grain. He 
 mas a man 38 years of age, and his doctor told me that 
 "he had been careful toi eliminate all history of con- 
 sumption, that he was convinced himself that the 
 man's death was due entirely to the irritation set up by 
 the dust. 
 
 9705. Do you know whether it was a case of fibroid 
 phthisis or tubercular phthisis ?i — I could not say that. 
 
 9706. These men, I suppose, work first for one firm, 
 .and then for another? — Yes. 
 
 9707. Have you considered at all on whom the bur- 
 den should fall of compensating them in case they are 
 ill? — In the cass of a number of workers at Hull, the 
 work is done by the North-Eastern Eailway Company, 
 ■who have a number of men working in the grain per- 
 manently. 
 
 9708. So that if a man got ill would it be fair to 
 .fcay the Nortli-Eastem Railway Company should pay 
 •compensation 7 — ^Yes, amongst their regular men. 
 
 9709. What about the casual workers t — With regard 
 to the casual workers, a very large proportion of thorn 
 ■work for one stevedore ; each stevedore has his general 
 4.ands, and engages casual hands, when his own hands 
 .are insuflident to cope with the work at the time. 
 
 9710. They work for some years, do they, in that 
 ■way for one man? — Yes. 
 
 9711. Have you any experience of the London Docks? 
 — Not with regard to grain. 
 
 9712. Then you are clearly of opinion that these men 
 .do suffer in health from their employment, and that 
 'there is an industrial disease amongst dock labourers 
 due to dusty cargoes ? — Certainly. 
 
 9713. Do they suffer from any other ailments than 
 those of the respiratory system? — In the barley 
 ■cargoes the men do certainly suffer seriously from, itch, 
 and in phospfhate and ore cargoes, particularly ore 
 "Cargoes, the symptoms are that after a few hours' work 
 in ore, a man is taken with violent sneezing, followed 
 hy bleeding at the nose, and he has to cease work. 
 
 9714. Are the men who suffer from itch prevented 
 from continuing their employment? — ^Yes. 
 
 9715. They are away from work altogether, are 
 they ? — Yes, for many days at a time ; in fact, the 
 medical officer who ex.amines the recruits at Hull 'told 
 me he had had to refuse a large number whom he 
 found suffering from itch, and practically in every 
 •case -the men said the cause of the itch was working 
 amongst grain cargoes, generally barley. 
 
 9716. Would it be possible to determine in any 
 given case whether the itch from which a man suf- 
 fered was due to his employment or not ? — The medical 
 man was of opinion that he could distinguish. 
 
 9717. And they would be prevented from working 
 for a period of more than a week, would they?— Yes, 
 ■oartainly. 
 
 9718. Under treatment, would they recover ?— Yes. 
 
 9719. Are the men vrho suffer from bleeding from 
 the nose by working among the ore or phosphate 
 cargoes prevented from working for a period of a 
 week or more ?— I could not say that definitely. The 
 inquiries that I have made show that in the case of 
 new men the bleeding is so serious that they have 
 refused to work again in ore ; but there seemed to be 
 a fair number of exparienced men, men -who have 
 lecome somewhat acclimatised to the conditions, wHo 
 are able to work for longer periods ; but when they 
 get a particularly bad cargo, they frequently find, even 
 with experienced men, they have to damp do^n the 
 whole of the cargo on account of the dust, and that 
 they have to line the baskets in which the ore is 
 taken up to prevent its getting through the wicker 
 work; and ev^n then, they find ^i^l^ f ^Pf ^*^^Xr 
 they have to change the hands engaged a large number 
 
 ■of times a day. 
 
 9720. Do you know of any cases in which such men 
 working in those cargoes are kept away from any form 
 flf employment for a week or more?-No ; I have n^t 
 traced a single case at present. 
 
 Mr. 
 Owner. 
 
 9721. {Professor Allhutt.) Are you prepared to give 
 technical medical details ? — ^No. j 
 
 9722. I suppose there are medical men in Hull who 9- m — Ton-- 
 have seen these cases, and who know all about them?— "^ '" 
 Yes. 
 
 9723. Can you suggest the names of any medical 
 men who are familiar with them? — ^Yes. Dr. J. G. 
 Mc Willie, of Hedon Road, is one. 
 
 9724. I suppose it is inorganic dust in some cases, 
 and organic dust in others, which is mixed with the 
 grain cargoes ? Which do you think it is mostly ?— It 
 is very largely inorganic dust. 
 
 9725. May it be put roughly under this head?— 
 Yes ; I think the inorganic dust is much more serious 
 than the organic dust. 
 
 9726. Cargoes are wholly hand-discharged, not 
 maohme-discharged, I suppose ?— There is no machine 
 discharging whatever. The procedure at Hull with 
 regard to the wheat cargoes, w'hioh are particularly com- 
 plained of by the men, is this — ^the Kurrachee wheat 
 arrives at Hull in the ships in bags, and the custom 
 is for each merchant to bring his own craft alongside 
 the ship. They have some ancient rights there, by 
 which the smaller craft do not pay dock dues, and 
 the merchant, in order to unload expeditiously, has 
 the bag cut, and then the wheat is shot into a short 
 •hopper with an equally short spout, the result being 
 that as the wheat passes down the hopper into the 
 barge the air winnows it to a certain extent, and blows 
 the dust into the faces of the men. 
 
 9727. By this process more dust is caused ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9728. Do you know of any existing machinery by 
 which these oondi-tione coul-d be modified, either by 
 way of fans or closed boxes? — Of course, in dealing 
 with bulk cargoes in the West of England they are 
 largely discharged by either mechanical elevators or 
 by pneumatic suction plants. 
 
 9729. Do you see any difficulty in this process being 
 app'lied tlo' such cargoes in Hull? — ^I am told that 
 the custom of the port is almost such as to prevent 
 their use. But I have been there such a short time 
 that I would not like to express a definite opinion 
 on the point. It is certain that the mechanical ap- 
 pliances in use in other ports are not in use at Hull, 
 
 9730. But you think them necessary, I take it, and 
 that the adverse conditions prevailing in other places 
 are very much less than in Hull ? — Quite so. 
 
 9731. (Mr. Cunynghame. ) With regard to itch 
 from barley cargoes, is that a parasite ? Do you know 
 anything about that point ? — I am afraid I know very 
 little about it, except that the doctors have told me 
 that there is itch caused by mechanical irritation, and 
 itch caused by a parasite. They say there are two 
 kinds of itch. 
 
 9732. I should imagine the only itch got from the 
 grain cargo is the mechanical itch, because a man 
 might get itch in quite a different way, might he not ? 
 — ^Yes. I have not examined any man who has had 
 it, and even if I had I am afraid my medical know- 
 ledge is not sufficient for me to judge. I only 
 mentioned it because the information has come to my 
 knowledge, and the men themselves feel very strongly 
 about it. 
 
 9733. With regard to phthisis and bronchitis among 
 dock labourers, are there any statistics showing that 
 they are worse off than the rest of the population ? — 
 There are none so far as Hull is concerned. I have 
 made inquiries from the Medical Officer of Health, 
 and although his records show a very large death- 
 rate from chest complaints amongst the inhabitants of 
 ■Hull, he has not any definite statistics as regards the 
 dock labourers. 
 
 9734. If we are in the face of a very large death- 
 rate from phthisis and bronchitis in Hull generally, 
 the point that you have to make is to show_ that the 
 dock labourers have -an unusual excess of it, is it not .■' 
 It rather weakens the case for dock labourers if you 
 show that in the whole town the phthisis and bron- 
 chitis death-rate is large, does it not?--It does. The 
 only answer I can make to that is that the doctors tell 
 me the chest complaints from which their patients 
 suffer are distinguishable definitely by the sputum of 
 the patients. 
 
 9735. They have examined the sputum, have they. 
 
304 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. 
 J. Owner. 
 
 25 Mar. 1907 
 
 and found dust in it ?— I think Dr. MoWillie will tell 
 you he has made definite examination into the matter 
 
 9736. Are there any dusty cargoes that are not 
 injurious to health, do you think ? — I have not heard 
 of a dusty cargo coming into Hull that does not set 
 up injuYy. 
 
 9737. But some dusts, you know, do not set up 
 any injury at all — coal dust for instance ? — Quite so ; 
 I have mad© inquiries amongst colliers, and cannot 
 i"nd any injury. They are a separate class of men 
 altogether, and never work in the grain trade. 
 
 9738. They load coal, I suppose? — ^Yes, the trimmers 
 do. 
 
 9739. Those trimmers do not suffer from bronchitis 
 and phthisis, then ? — I have not been able to trace ar.f 
 injury amongst them. 
 
 9740. Is there any other kind of cargo you can men- 
 tion where it is not injurious? — ^I think not. 
 
 9741. Do you get any flour that has 'been milled 
 coming to Hull ? — There is some importation of flour. 
 
 9742. That comes in sacks, I suppose?— 354,000 cwts. 
 came in sacks last year. 
 
 9743. Is there any dust coming oH from that? — 
 Very little. 
 
 9744. (Dr. Legge.) In these grain cargoes, db you 
 know what the principal iconstitiuent is of the inorganic 
 duet ? — ^It is very largely silioiousi matter. 
 
 9745-7. Is there much dressing of grain done in con- 
 nection with the unloading of vessels at Hull ? — There 
 is a very large flour industry there, and, of course, 
 they dress the grain in the larger factories ; but, 
 
 generally speaking, they have fairly good plants for 
 dealing with it when it gets to the factory itself. 
 
 9748. Do you mean for dust extraction ? — Yes ; 
 washing and brushing and cleaning it. 
 
 9749. Even supposing you had pneumatic elevators, 
 or other kinds of elevators, there is still the shovelling; 
 of the material into the elevators to be done, is there- 
 not ? — ^Some shovelling has to be done when you get to- 
 the bottoim of the cargo, but it is very little when com- 
 pared with the amount of laibour now requdied. 
 
 9750. Where have you seen these elevators ? — They 
 luave a, large pneumatic elevator at Shaa^ness for- 
 linseed, maize, and wheat in bulk. 
 
 9751. Have you seen them anywhere else? — ^No; 
 they have mechanical elevators at Bristol, but they 
 are the ordinary type of bucket elevator. 
 
 9752. Would it be possible, do you think, to have- 
 some fan or duct in connection with the unloading of, 
 grain cargoes? — At present I do not see how it couldl 
 be arranged. 
 
 9753. (Chairman.) Have you come across in your" 
 experience as a factory inspector any other littlei- 
 known industrial disease, sudi as chrysoidine poison- 
 ing ? — No ; I think the only other case of serious- 
 injury was a case of mercurial poisoning at Brightom 
 some few years ago. 
 
 9754. (Dr. Legge.) Are the workmen in Hull off 
 opinion that arsenic is added to the wheat? — They 
 think arsenic is added to the wheat, and they think- 
 that injuriously affects them in addition to the dust. 
 My own view is that it is merely a dreesing put on the- 
 wheat. 
 
 Mt. J. G. AsHMOKE, called and examined. 
 
 men engaged in 
 
 employed in the 
 a matter of fact. 
 
 Mr. J. O. 9755. (Chairman.) Are you the secretary and man- 
 Ashmore. ager of the Oakeley slate quarries at Blaenau-Festiniog 1 
 — Tes. 
 
 9756. Have you been there many yea«&7 — I have 
 been connected vrith the quarry foT thirty-thxee years 
 as secretary, and since 1896 I have been the secretary 
 and manager. 
 
 9757. Are there many men employed tihere?' — ^I appear 
 to-day on behalf of the Festiniog Quarries Association, 
 which is aji Association formed to protect the interests 
 of all slate quarries in the Festiniog district, and the 
 Association between them, which consists of thirteen 
 quarries, employ 3,216 men, or, at any rate, that was 
 the number employed at the end of last year. Since 
 then two quaaries have closed down. 
 
 9758. Does that number include 
 quarrying and in the mills ? — Yes. 
 
 9759. How many men wooild be 
 mills ? — I cannot tell you that. As; 
 I have hardly had time to go sufficiently over the whole 
 employees of the quarries to give you. a complete return. 
 I can give you the figures of our own quarry — one-third 
 of the men there are employed in the miUs. 
 
 9760. In your own quarry how many men are em- 
 ployed in the mills? — I have drawn up a specifica- 
 tion of each of the mills, with the numberr of men 
 employed in each, and giving the average cubical con- 
 tents for each man and boy employed. The total will 
 be 7,867 cubic feet to each man and boy employed in 
 the mills in the Oakeley slat© quarries. Of a total of 
 1,070 employed there, 338 are employed in the mills. 
 
 9761. How many mills have you?' — Altogether we 
 have ten mills and one slab mill. I have not included 
 the slab mill in the average of ouibio feet, owing to 
 the fact that we only have thtee men in the mill, €ind 
 as it is the largest mill of the lot it would have brought 
 out the average veiy much in our favour. 
 
 9762. The work carried on in the mills is sawing 
 and dressing slates, is it? — Sawing, splitting, and 
 dressing slates. 
 
 9763. Is there much dust evolved in those processes ? 
 — There is practically no dust evolved in the sawing 
 processes, because all the saws are run in water 
 troughs, and in the dressing of the slate itself large 
 portions are cut off, and there would be a little dust 
 arising from that process, no doubt, but it is compara- 
 tively small— in fact, infinitesimal. I have a book 
 of photographs here, which will give the Committee 
 
 some idea of what the work is. This is a phiotogra^jh; 
 of one of our mills where the slat© splitter is shown. 
 at work, and its clear definition vpill show you the 
 general conditions of the air in those places. The- 
 photographs were taken when the men were at work. 
 
 9764. Do you have many oases • amongst your men. 
 of phthisis or other diseases of th© respiratory system )' 
 — It is a disease rif© in th© district, not only amongst 
 the quarrymen, but amongst the whole residentsi in the 
 district — ^phthisis and other diseases of the respiratory 
 organs, brought about very largely, in my opinion, 
 by the climatic conditions. 
 
 9765. Have you any statistics showing the oompajra- 
 tive incidence of these diseases amongst the population 
 generally, and among quarry workers in particular? — I 
 l?.ave not been able to obtain those figures, but I thint 
 it is only necessary to refer you to Dr. Richard Jones's- 
 report. We, as representing the quarry owners at Fes- 
 tiniog, were not able to get an independent doctor' to- 
 come before you to-day, because all th© doctors in th© 
 district are paid, and are in th© employ of the men — ^not 
 that we wish to suggest for a single moment that the- 
 dootors who come before you would give anything but 
 fair evidence, but as a matter of fact the doctors are all 
 employed by the men in the district, and w© are not 
 able to get a doctor who has any sufficient knowledge- 
 of the subject to bring him before you. Therefore- 
 it is very difficult, from our point of view, to put the 
 proper medical position before you. But w© are pre- 
 pared to take Dr. Richard Jones's evidence as being: 
 quite fair and straightforward as given in the Report 
 of the Departmental Committee upon Merionethshire- 
 Slate Mines, dated 1893-95, which you have doubtless 
 had before you. 
 
 9766. Have there been any changes sine© then in 
 this particular ?— No, I know of none, with the excep>- 
 tion, I think, that every quarry has spent a great deal 
 of money on the general improvement of th© conditions- 
 of their workers. Quarrymen have to be practicdly 
 grown from boys, and it is therefor© to the employers'" 
 interest to doth© best ther can to keep them in A 
 healthy condition and pirolong their lives. 
 
 9767. Have you any statistics with regard to the*- 
 physical condition of your workers which you could 
 lay before the Committee ?— I can give you the death' 
 rate in our own quarry. The aeneral death rate, 
 including all diseases, but apart from accidents, has- 
 been 10-84 per thousand amongst those we have em- 
 ployed from 1900 to 1906— among the whole body of 
 the workers— and from phthisis alone it has be©n 1-91 
 
DEPABTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 305 
 
 per thousand among quarrymen, including mill 
 workers. 
 
 9768-9. Bo you find more cases of phthisis amongst 
 the mill workers than amongst the other men?— ^That 
 is a qnestion I am hot in a position to answer. You 
 see, we have a lyge hodyi of men. Immediately I 
 heard you would perhaps care to havei some evidence 
 I sent for particulars, but they have beetti unable to 
 complete them. The Beigistrars have not been able to 
 give us a complete list of the deaths in the time at our 
 disposal, and it hais been difficult to get anything which 
 is conclusive as between the two classes of workmen ; 
 therefore, jinless I was aible to give you the exact 
 figures, it would be no use giving a figure which would 
 lead to a wrong conclusion. 
 
 9770. (Br. Legge.) Save youi a list of the deaths ?l — 
 Yes. You will find this list with the red ink maiks is 
 a list we sent to the Registrar with the idea of ooin- 
 pletiiig previous lists, bat it has not been completed 
 in every respect. Those are lists of deaths in our own 
 works, end we employ one-third of the quarrymen in 
 the dl'strict. 
 
 9771. {Chairman.) Then, in your opinion, there is 
 no disease amongst quairty workers which can be pro- 
 perly attributed to theli: employment ? — It would 06 a 
 very difficult thing for me to say that from a medical 
 pc^int of view. I can only say that up to the present 
 time there has been no proof of phthisis being brought 
 about by slate dust ; that is toi siay, there has been 
 no post-mortem, and looking at the thing, as a laymstn 
 I cannot see how one is going to differentiate between 
 fibroid phthisis and tuberculous phthisis unless by 
 post-mortem, and if the disease is one attached to the 
 schedule, of course it means a post-mortem on every- 
 one dying from tuberculosis. 
 
 9772. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is part of the work of 
 cutting the slate done underground ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9773. Is the work of cutting slate done by bore-holes 
 and blasting? — Yes. 
 
 9774. Do you bore holes wet? — Very, often, but not 
 all wet. 
 
 9775. In the makiilg of bore-holes in the dry and 
 underground away from the air, are not you aware 
 tha.t the dust is very injurious? — The channelling is 
 bored wet, and in that {►hotograph where you see all 
 the men together, the boring is wet, but in most oases 
 of old-fashioned hand driving, in the headings or levels 
 it is dry ; there are generally only one or two men in 
 the dhambers, which may be anything from 160 ft. 
 high by 60 ft. vri.de. 
 
 9776. There is no artificial ve&tUation, is there ?— 
 Yes, there is compressed air brought in. 
 
 9777. You would have rather expected to find some 
 of the men who are boring suffering from the effects of 
 dry dust, would you not ?— We do not find it sot, the 
 general conditions of the work are so humid. 
 
 9778. Is the face of the rock naturally wet ?— Yes. 
 
 9779. At all events it is so in your quarry?— Yes. 
 In some it is so, and in others it is not, but in 
 most of the quarrieg in the Festiniog district there ife 
 moisture on the face of the rock. There are a ffew 
 chambers where it is drj-, but there isi percolation 
 from the roofs. 
 
 9780. Why do you saw in water-troughs ?— That is tc 
 a large extent in ordeiP to cool the saws, and we find 
 they do much better work. 
 
 9731. It is not then on account of dust arising ?— No, 
 it ig not done to prevent that, although, of course^ 
 there was a period when water was not used ; but 1- 
 was found the wear and tear of the saws was so great 
 that they did far better work in the water. 
 
 9782. (Chairman.) When water was not used, was 
 there more effect on the health of the workers 7-1 
 cannot teU you. I do not think very correct registers 
 were kept in those days. 
 
 9783. (Mr. Cunyngham^.) Have you registers now? 
 —Yes. 
 
 9784. Do they show a difference between the death 
 rates from phthisis and bronchitis of women and men 
 respectively 2— We have not a register kept o± women 
 and men, but we generally take a note in the quarries 
 themselves as to our own men. 
 
 S785. Are not theii^ regular returns kept in the dis- 
 trict?— Yes, by the Registrar. 
 9786. Would they show the difference between 
 419 
 
 women and men, or have you gone into it?— I have Mr J G 
 not. Of course, I can only go on what the doctors Ashm'm-e. 
 
 say there ; they are inclined to think there is a good 
 
 deal moi-e phthisis among women and children than ^5 ^lar. 1907. 
 
 there is among the men, and that they say is very 
 
 largely owing to the conditions of their homes^the 
 want of proper ventilation. Asi I dare say you saw 
 Mr. Lloyd-George said the other day, if they knocked 
 a pane out of the window in each room the conditions 
 would be far healthiesr. I have been many and 
 many a time in the district, and, out of curiosity, I 
 have tried to count in half a mile of small cottages 
 how many windows were open on a beautiful day, and 
 not one of them was found open. 
 
 9787. (Professor Allbutt.) And the owners of those 
 cottages were in work and getting ^od pay ?— Yes. 
 
 9788. Do you remember what month of the yoar 
 that was ? — ^It would be in May. 
 
 9789. And it is a little chilly in May, is it not ? — 
 Yes ; but I have been often there without an overcoat, 
 and found it quite hot, though, of course, you may- 
 get a weak of that kind of weather, and then get some 
 very trying weather. We have put 18 dining-rooms 
 up in the quarries for the comfort of the men, and 
 drying rooms where they can dry their clothes if they 
 choose to do so, and we have ventilated the quarry 
 with compressed air, and, in fact, generally every- 
 thing that one can possibly do to meet their general 
 comfort has been done. We find, of course, it is far 
 bettsr to have a healthy, eontented, comfortable work- 
 man than to have a man ground down to the last point, 
 and I think what applies to our quarry applies to all 
 the quarries. I was going to say that looking at the 
 question in accordance with the reference which has 
 been made to you, that if yott in your wisdom sse fit 
 to add phthisis to the Act, it seems to me it will be a 
 very great hardship upon the men, because it Would 
 necessitate, in the first instanos, I am sure, all the 
 quarries under the present conditions of the trade 
 having a very careful examination of the men who 
 are now in their lemploy, . and I ami afraid it might 
 lead to dismissal in many cases, for the simple reason 
 that most of us in the trade are at present carrying on 
 our quarries mor or less on philanthropic lines. There 
 is little or no profit attaching to the business, and one 
 quarry which employed 200 men closed down last Satur- 
 day week, and we could all do with less men. Then, 
 again, it would necessitate our having any men we took 
 on in the future being duly certified, and probably we 
 should have to go back soma little distance into their 
 family history. So that altogether it seems to me it 
 would be a hardship on both of us, because on the one 
 hand it is most difficult to say what the phthisis arises 
 from, whether it is from a man's avocation or not. I 
 do not think any man can distinguish it as a, disease 
 "properly attributable" to slate quarrying, and that 
 is the whole point, I think. 
 
 9790. (Chairman.) Would those remarks of yours 
 apply to the inclusion of fibroid phthisis only, as dis- 
 tinct from tubercular phthisis ? — Of course, that is the 
 particular diseasa Which would no doubt be applicable 
 to slate dust, but the difficulty to my mind is how it 
 is going to be proved. 
 
 9791. If the burden were thrown upon the workman 
 to prove that he had fibroid phthisis, and had con- 
 tracted it in his employment, do you think the ■em- 
 ployers would mind paying if it were proved? — I do 
 not think so for a moment if that were so ; but I do 
 say, if it is included, it is perfectly certain we should 
 have to pay a premium to the insurance companies for 
 the risk, and it is perfectly certain that everybody 
 who dies from consumption, or any complaint of the 
 kind, will claim under the Act for compensation. 
 
 9792 But, as you know, before a claim can be made 
 it must be osrtified by the certifying surgeon, and from 
 him there would be an appeal to a, medical referee as 
 to whether a man was definitely suffering from the 
 disease In th-3 diseases now included in the schedule 
 the burden of disproof falls on the employer, but there 
 is power in the hands of the Secretary of State to cast 
 the burden of proof upon the workman. If you had 
 first of all the certificate of the certifying surgeon, 
 then the certificate of the referee, and, thirdly, the 
 burden of proof thrown on the workmen, do you 
 tbink vour objection to the inclusion of the 
 disease would still be as strong ?-I think we 
 should still have to pay a very considerable 
 sum to the insurance companies, because they 
 
 2 Q 
 
306 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE ; 
 
 Mr. J. G. 
 Ashmore. 
 
 25 Mai. 1907 
 
 know perfectly well the climatic conditions ; they 
 have had a wide experience already under the exist- 
 ing Compensation Act in reference to the general 
 ciiaracter of the employmsnt, and there is no doubt 
 they would charge us a pretty high premium, and I 
 think any extra burden on the industry at the present 
 time would be a very serious matter. It r'2any woiild 
 mean in some cases a matter of £200 to £250 on the 
 premium, which in the case of some of the quarries 
 would mean shutting down. We ars all now, as a 
 matter of fact, passing through a period of great 
 depression. There is hardly one quarry in the 
 Festiniog district which is really paying at the pre- 
 sent time. I may tell you that under the present Com- 
 pensation Act our premium comes to nearly 1 per cent, 
 on the capital of the company. We are paying 30s. 
 per cent, now on the wage, and in July, when the new 
 Act comes into foro3, we are told to anticipate a very 
 considerable addition to that charge, quite apart from 
 any scheduled diseases that the Government may think 
 fit to enforce. 
 
 9793. {Mr. Cunynghame.) What is the reason why 
 the slate trade is so bad now? — It has been largely 
 brought about by the foreign competition. We have 
 had more slates brought in from France and America 
 than we produce, and they have been sold at very low 
 l^rices. We have reduced our prices to meet this, and 
 the result is that we have had to reduce the wages pro 
 raid, and the men consequently are leaving the country. 
 I have an extract here from the " Cambrian News " of 
 jMarch 32nd, which I will read : — " Emigration. — ^It is 
 calculated that during the past two years over 400 
 people have emigrated from the Festiniog district to 
 America, over 500 to South Wales, and close upon 200 
 to Durham and district. Quite 100 workmen are 
 booked to leave for America during the next few 
 weeks." That is the condition of our industry at the 
 present moment, and, as I say, another quarry s-hut 
 down which employed 200 men last Saturday week. 
 
 9794. (Chairman.) You say that you provide drying 
 rooms for the men ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9795. How do they get their clothes wet? — Many of 
 the men work in the open, and on each of the floors, 
 where there are any number of men working, we have 
 a drying room, where they can go and change and sit 
 down and have a snack of food. 
 
 9796. Do they use the drying rooms ?— Yes. 
 
 9797. Do you find any men who still go home with 
 -their clothes damp? — Yes. It is so difficult to get even 
 from the quarry to the station at times without being 
 nearly drowned, when you consider the heavy rainfall. 
 
 9798. (Professor Allbutt.) What is the distance?— 
 It would be a good 20 to 25 minutes' walk from the 
 quarry to the station, according to what part of the 
 quarry the men are employed at. I should very much 
 like the Committee to see the conditions under which 
 the men work before making up their minds on their 
 report, 'because I feel quite satisfied if you saw the 
 conditions under which they work — they are quite 
 ideal — you get more dust going along a country road 
 behind a motor-car in five minutes than you would 
 get in our mills in six months, and I should think it 
 would be more heavily laden with fruitful germs. If I 
 may, I should like tO' put in a short description of the 
 quarry, giving details of the system of working at 
 Festiniog. 
 
 9799. Eespiratory diseases are contracted in your 
 district, I take it, but rather in the form of acute 
 pneumonia, as well as, of course, tuberculous con- 
 sumption? — Quite so. 
 
 9800. But not as to chronic bronchitic ailments oi 
 asthma, I take it ?— We have a fair number of cases 
 of asthma, too. 
 
 9801. In the district in which your quarries are 
 situated, being in the West of England, and the 
 climate being a comparatively mild one, you would not 
 anticipate much chronic pulmonary disease, would 
 you. It is an equable, mild climate as compared with 
 the East of England, is it not ?— No, it is particularly 
 cold up in the mountains there. The actual works 
 extend fiom 700 to 1,400 feet above the sea level, and 
 when the men are working up in the higher levels, as 
 many of them do in the course of a day, they are very 
 exposed, and it is bitterly cold there. It is in the 
 Snowdon range, North Wales. 
 
 9802. That might very well favour pneumonia ; but. 
 
 L'enerally speaking, it is rather favourable to the pul- 
 monaiy organs, is it not '( — It might be so in some cases. 
 
 9803. Tuberculous phthisis is a different disease 
 from chronic pulmonai-y disease due to dust? — Quite 
 ^u. As a mat-ter of fact, on that point, if the Com- 
 mittee would allow me, I would rather not express 
 an opinion, because I have no medical knowledge. !My 
 only fear is this : If these claims come, and this 
 proof has to be made, I do not see, personally, how 
 one can prove this except by post-mortem. Then, if 
 3-0U have to cut up everybody that dies in the district 
 from diseases of this kind there will be troxible. I 
 know how the Welshmen look upon these matters. 
 
 9804. There are post-mortems of sufficient frequency 
 to establish a doctrine on the subject, so that we are 
 able to apply knowledge to particular cases in your 
 particular district without requiring examinations in 
 all cases ? — Has a post-mortem examination ever been 
 held on a slate miner? 
 
 9805. Yes, we have at any rate notes of two in the 
 Carnarvon district. And what would make the danger 
 greater would be, would it not, that the slate dust con- 
 tains a large number of fine silicious spicules ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9806. So, you see, even if there had been no post- 
 mortems on slate quarriers, but post-mortems on other 
 persons breathing silicious particles, the body of 
 evidence would be considerable? — That may be so. 
 
 9807. From this, and from the well-known clinical 
 symptoms, I think there would be no difiiculty in 
 discriminating between tuberculous consumption and 
 what we have been accustomed to call fibrosis and 
 chronic bronchitis ? — It presents a difficulty to me which 
 I rather anticipate — in every case they would imme- 
 diately make a claim ; but if you protect us on the 
 line® suggested by your Chairman and make it incum- 
 bent on the rej)resentatives of the men to prov^e the case, 
 it would relieve us decidedly. 
 
 9808. It is quite true that any change of law which 
 affects many interests must for a short time give 
 rise to cases of question and doubt, but within a 
 short time these matters settle themselvee, do they 
 not, and the lines of discrimination become distinct 
 and recognisable by any expert? Without saying for 
 a mom-ent what the Committee will do, it is well to 
 consider the very imiportant differences of tliis kind. 
 With regard to the larger proportion of phthisis 
 between women and men, this seems to me to be, in 
 part, at any rate, due to the infection in the houses, 
 does it not ? — Probably that would be so. And it shows 
 the disease is generally rife in the district, which, I 
 think, is brought about by the climatic conditions. I 
 sho^ild like to put in tliis table of the rainfall. It varies 
 from 69-81 to 135-13 inches per annum, and the number 
 of wet days was 239 out of 365 on the average. 
 
 9809. I find in the statistics you have put in only 
 one entry of fibroid phthisis ? — That is so, and the ques- 
 tion in my mind is how they arrived at that one case, 
 because there was no post-mortem. 
 
 9810. I venture to suggest that a post-mortem 
 examination may have been as little necessary to ascer- 
 tain if one' had died of typhoid fever or not. The 
 Welsh quai-rymen are a very clannish people, are they 
 not? — ^Yes, they are. 
 
 9811. Do they intermarry very much ? — I believe 
 there is a good deal of intermarrying. 
 
 9812. This might establish a tendency to tuberculous 
 disease, might it not ? — Yes, I think it might. 
 
 9813. In the examination of the sputum in cases 
 where dust phthisis exists, do not you think the 
 referee would reasonably expect a record of such 
 l>articles as found in the sputum, which is a kind of 
 post-mortem after all, is it not? — Yes, if you say so. 
 
 9814. (Br. Legge.) In this list of diseases amongst 
 quarrymen does the first sheet represent those cases -at 
 your own works ? — They have all occurred at our works 
 in the different years. 
 
 9815. Do vou propose to fill in the ages of the men ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 9816. You mentioned Dr. Richard Jones as a person 
 in whom you had entire confidence? — Yes. 
 
 9817. Has he attended most of these men? — ^Hfr 
 attends, I think, the larger proportion of them. 
 
 9818. Could you ascertain from him the cases in 
 which he thinks there is any effect aiising from dust P 
 — Yes, I could ask him to do that. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE OX IXDUSTRrAL DISEASES. 
 
 307 
 
 9819. Because the mere statement without some com- 
 mentary by a doctor who is acquainted with the condi- 
 tions under which the men work is not of very great 
 assistance ? — No, of course those are the diseases under 
 which their deaths have been registered, and the cer- 
 
 tificates have been very largely given by Dr. Jones 
 himself. 
 
 9820. And therefore he would be able to say in which 
 cases amongst them there was a certain amount or a 
 large amount of dust 1—1 think he will, if he can. 
 
 Mr. J. 0. 
 
 Aahmorc 
 
 25 Mar. 1907. 
 
 Mr. M. Kellow, called and examined. 
 
 9821. (Chairman.) Are you general manager and 
 secretary of the Park and Croesor Slatu Quarries in 
 North Wales? — Yes; and an Associate Mem'ber of tlie 
 Institution of Civil Engineers and a Fellow of tlie Royal 
 Geological Society. 
 
 9822. Have you been connected with those quarries 
 for 30 years? — I have been connected with the Park 
 Quarry for 30 years, and with the Oroesoa- Quarry for 
 12 years. 
 
 9823. How many men are there employed in those two 
 quarries in all processes ? — 179. 
 
 9824. How many of those are employed in the mills ? 
 —57. 
 
 9825. Can you tell the Committee what is the death 
 rate from pulmonary diseases among those workmen, 
 or from all diseases of the respiratory system ? — If you 
 include asthma, pneumonia, and phthisis, five was the 
 total number during 10 years. 
 
 9826. How many of those five were employed in the 
 mills ? — None. 
 
 98i!7. With regard to the death rate among quarry- 
 men, for the purpose of these statistics, do you in- 
 clude men wlio die when they have been very 
 recently in the employ of the quarry, or do you 
 include men who have left a year or two and have 
 then died ? — If they have worked elsewhere after leav- 
 ing our employment I have not included them — that is 
 to say, if they have left our employment and been em- 
 ployed elsewhere after leaving our quarries. But in 
 any case where a man has died who has not worked 
 elsewhere I have included him. 
 
 9828. Have you any knowledge of the number of cases 
 of death from these diseases amongst men who have 
 worked in your quarry and have then gone to work else- 
 where? — I have not. 
 
 9829. Have you any reason to think it would be at 
 all large ? — ^No ; on the contrary, I think it would be 
 quite small. 
 
 9830. Is it your opinion that men suffer from lung 
 diseases from their employment in the quarries or 
 mills? — Certainly not. 
 
 9831. You do not come across many men in the mills 
 who show signs of chest trouble from inhaling dust ?— 
 I do not know of a single instance since I have been 
 connected with either of the quarries im which we have 
 had a case of phthisis amongst any men in the mills, 
 fatal or otherwise. 
 
 9832. Do the men work on to a considerable age in 
 that employment? — I have particulars di two deaths 
 which I have scheduled, one of a man who worked to 
 within a few months of his death, and that man died 
 at the age of 73, and another man who died at the age 
 of 66. 
 
 9833. Are those the only two deaths that you have 
 had in the mills during the last ten years ?— Yes. 
 
 9834. In the Croesor quarry you have had eight 
 deaths, have you not?— Nine deaths, including the 
 two quarries. 
 
 9625. Of those, were there two cases of phthisis, two 
 of pneumonia, and one of asthma? — Yes; those are 
 cases elsewhere thfur in the mills, which practically 
 means underground. 
 
 9835. Did one die of heart disease, one from inflam- 
 mation of the bowels, and another from a cause un- 
 known ? — ^Yes. 
 
 9837. Have you anything to say with regard to the 
 two cases of phthisis ?— One of these men had been a 
 farm labourer nearly all his lifetime ; he only worked 
 a few weeks in the quarry, and he had contracted 
 phthisis before he became a quarryman. 
 
 9838. Is either of your quarries wet, or do they drill 
 in the dry stone ? — There is a certain amount of mois- 
 ture present, but it is exceedingly small. 
 
 9839. Do any classes of your workers inhale much 
 dust daring their work ? — They do not. 
 
 419 
 
 9840. Have you any illustration to offer the Com- 
 mittee to show the amount of dust that is evolved '— 
 The work in the mills consists of cross-cutting the 
 rough slate blocks by circular saws, splitting them to 
 the thickness of roofing slates, and dressing them to 
 rectangular forms by rotary knives. The circular 
 saws travel in troughs filled with water and rotate at 
 a slow rate, about 25 to 40 revolutions per minute, and 
 sometimes a water drip is also arranged to fall on the 
 blocK as it is being cut. These conditions practically 
 preclude the formation of dust. The operation of 
 splitting is not productive of dust. The rotary knives 
 used for dressing travel also at a slow rate, about 30 
 revolutions per minute, and the pieces cut off are 
 relatively large, mostly several square inches in area. 
 Although some dust results from this operation the 
 quantity is uegligeably small. The Croesor mills were 
 painted about two years ago, at which time all the 
 woodwork was cleaned. Since then no dust has beeri. 
 removed. I caused to be carefully collected the dust 
 that had settled during that period on a horizontal 
 area of one square foot. 
 
 9841. Was that on the floor? — It was on the hori- 
 zontal beam of the principal which passes over the saw 
 tables. 
 
 9842. About how high would that be from the 
 ground ?— About 9 feet to 10 feet. 
 
 9843. Would you find the same amount of dust on 
 the floor ? — It is very difficult to state what that would 
 be, because it is not a paved floor ; it is an earthen or a 
 slate floor. 
 
 9844. If you had taken some window ledge or some 
 other place three or four feet from the ground would 
 you have found more dust? — I think it is probable 
 the place I selected would contain the maximum 
 amount to be found in any part of the mill, because it 
 was right above a saw table and dressing machine. 
 This amount was the maximum amount of dust dis- 
 coverable. Its weight was 16^ draohans. Taking the 
 dret at the density of sla4», this represents a thickness- 
 of .0009678 of an inch over one square foot of area. 
 
 9845. (Professor Allbutt.) About what height was. 
 theut ? — About 9 to 10 feet from the floor. 
 
 9846. That is a long way above the men's mouths, 
 is it not? — Yes. 
 
 9847. It is a heavy dust, is it not ? — It is a com- 
 paratively heavy dust, but I do not think you would 
 get more than that, even at a lower level. 
 
 9848. Not on the window ledges ? — No ; in fact, we 
 have no window ledges ; all the windows are in the 
 roof. I consider that this test bears out the statement 
 that the quantity of dust present in the atmosphere 
 is negligibly small. 
 
 9849. (Chairman.) Is it your opinion that the men 
 employed in the quarries and mills do not suffer from 
 any disease owing to the occupation in which they are 
 engaged? — Not that I am aware of. 
 
 9850. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is the trade that you are 
 doing a good trade ? Is it in good condition ? — No ; 
 on the contrary, it is in a very bad condition. 
 
 9851. To what do you attribute the impression that 
 has been created in some quarters that slate dust is 
 injurious. If it is not injurious, it would be curious- 
 to know, would it not, how the impression has arisen 
 that it is injurious to the lungs ? — I am not aware that 
 that impression generally exists. I am aware that the 
 statement has been made, and was made, in fact, 
 before a committee on which I gave evidence. 
 
 9852. Do you date the impression from the time of 
 the Report of that Committee ? — That is the only 
 evidence I have of the existence of the impression. 
 We hear absolutely nothing of it amongst the quarry- 
 men themselves. 
 
 9853. (Vr. Legge.) Can you give an analysis of slate? 
 Can you tell the Committee what it is chemically? — 
 It is a silicate of alumina. I cannot recollect all tihe 
 constituents at the present time, but there is nearly 
 
 2 Q 2 
 
 air. M. 
 Kellcw. 
 
308 
 
 MIXl'TES OF EVIDEXCE : 
 
 Mr. M. 6^ P®^' cent, silioa and nearly 40 per cent, alumina, 
 Kelloa: and some other insredietnts the exact proportions of 
 
 -vrhich I do not recollect, (but the constituents are chiefly 
 
 25 Mai-^907. silica and alumina. 
 
 9854. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you wish 
 to add? — I think if any diseases are going to be 
 scheduled in connection with slate quarries it would 
 be very desirable that the onus of proof should rest 
 on those m^aking the claims ; otiherwiise it might result 
 in considerable harm to the men themselves, because 
 it would probably have the effect of our eliminating 
 any men found to be suffering from any of the 
 scheduled diseases. 
 
 9855. If the onus of proof were thrown on the men, 
 and you had that safeguard, in addition to a certifi- 
 cate by a certifying surgeon and the medical referee, 
 do not vou consideir that that difficulty would not 
 arise? — I do not quite agree with that view, because 
 in cases of this kind we are put to a very great deal 
 
 of trouble in contesting claims. Very often very un- 
 reasonable claims might be brought forwaid, and the 
 trouble of contesting these things means a great deal 
 of expense. 
 
 9856. But if you have had no cases in your mills 
 and hardly any cases in your quarries due to phthisis 
 at all, and if the burden of proof were thrown on the 
 workmen to show that those cases, when they did occur, 
 were due to tih© employment, the burden upon the in- 
 dustry would be exceedingly small, would it not ? — J 
 am not endeavouring to protect the industry from any 
 legitimate claims that may be made upon it, but from 
 claims by people who, perhaps, had contracted 
 phthisis from causes altogether outside their employ- 
 ment. In bringing any claims for that which really 
 had no proper basis as against the employer, I think 
 there should be no necessity on him to disprove those 
 things. I think the onus of proof should rest upor 
 the people who are making the claims. 
 
 Mr. Caleb Kilnee, called and examined. 
 
 3/,, Q 9857. (Chairman.) Axe you a bottle manufacturer at 
 KUncr. Tho'mliill, near Leeds P — Yes, and at Oonisborough, 
 near Rotherham. 
 
 9358. How many men do you employ in your works ? 
 ■ — About 30O at the fumaoes. 
 
 9859. How many of tliem would be ga<therers, and 
 how many blowers, and so on? — A third would be 
 gatherers, a third blowers, and a third bottle makers. 
 
 9860. Do you find that many of these men suffer from 
 cataract or other affections of the eyes ? — No. 
 
 9861. Hjive you had cases of men ceasing work be- 
 cause they could not see? — ^We have had one; I only 
 know of one. 
 
 9862. Was that recently or long ago? — Recently. 
 
 9863. How many years' experience have you of this 
 trade ? — ^Forty years. 
 
 9864. (Professor Allhutt.) In Kilner's all the time? 
 — ^Yes ; I am the ohairman. The business has been 
 esitablished 63 years. 
 
 9865. (Chairman.) In your opinion, do these occupa- 
 tions in bottle making cause any affections of the eyee ? 
 • — Not, so far as my experience goes. 
 
 9Q66. W© have had gome rather striking evidence 
 submitted by the men, showing a, very remarkable num- 
 ber- of the men suffering from cataract especially, and 
 other affections of the eyes also, who are now receiving 
 superannuation pay, on account of their defective eye- 
 sight, from their trade union ? — I believe such is the 
 case. 
 
 9667. Have you seen those figures ? — Yes ; in fact, I 
 had an interview with Mr. Greenwood, the secretary, 
 on Saturday, and he showed me some astounding 
 figures; but that is not my experience. 
 
 9368. Have you any criticism to- make with reference 
 to those figures? — No, I cannot contradict the figures 
 he has ; I can only tell you what I know of my own 
 pereonal experience at our own works. 
 
 9869. Of course, if cases hardly ever occur in a given 
 works there would be a very small burden placed upon 
 the employer if he had to pay compensation under the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act? — Yes. Accoiyiing to 
 Mr. Greenwood's figures, some manufacturers in certain 
 localities would have to pay very heavily, while we 
 should get off, according to my experience, very lightly. 
 
 9870. Those figures of Mr. Greenwood's show that 
 particular districts suffer more than others ? — Yes. 
 
 9871. Which districts? — I think the North of Eng- 
 land. 
 
 9872. Is there any reason for that? Is the process 
 any different there .f — Our fumaoes are constructed 
 diffeirently to what most people's furnaces are. We 
 have shades in the furnace that keep the glare of the 
 glass from the men's eyes. 
 
 0873. That is not so at Sunderland and other places 
 in the North, then ? — No. 
 
 9874. Is there any difference in the process which 
 would make it impossible for them to adopt your 
 methods ? — ^I do not know. 
 
 9875. The kind of bottle made is just the same, is it ? 
 — Just the same. 
 
 9876. And is the process of manufacture Just the 
 same? — The process of manufacture is just the same, 
 but the material used might not be just the same, and 
 the matei-ial used might preclude them from using the 
 shades tbat we use. 
 
 9877. What sort of shades are they ? — They are fire- 
 clay ahades, which are inserted in the furnaces. 
 
 9878. So that the full glare of the flame does not 
 strike the men's eyes ? — That is so. 
 
 9879. Do your men wear goggles ? — No, we have not 
 on© man who wears goggles. 
 
 9380. {Mr. Cunynghame.) I suppose you have heaotxl 
 of cataract in the glass trade, though it has not oc- 
 curred among your own men? — ^I only heard it from 
 Mr. Greenwood. 
 
 9881. Only the other day ? — Only the other day. 
 
 9862. Not in all the years you 'have been in the trade ? 
 — I did not know before that the glass trade was pecu- 
 liar to cataract. 
 
 9883. Has not it been commonly talked of before ?— 
 No. I may say that we had Dr. Snell down at our 
 works about four years ago, and he could not find a 
 sign of cataract. 
 
 9684. Did he search for cataract ? — Yes. 
 
 9885. Why ?— I could not tell you that. He came on 
 his own initiative. 
 
 9885. (Chairman.) Then would you be inclined to say 
 that the reason why your works are free from cataract 
 while cataract ie prevalent in other districts is 'be- 
 caus© you have those fireclay shades inside the lurnaces 
 and they have not ?— That is my opinion. Do not the 
 Committee think it would be as well if they had some 
 manufacturer from places where cataract is prevalent? 
 I should recommend you to see Mr. Candlish, of Sea- 
 ham Harbour, and ask him to give evidence. 
 
 Mr. H. B. JoMBS, M.B., CM., called and examined. 
 
 9387. (Chairman.) Are you a medical man in practice 
 in Glasgow.? — Yes. 
 
 Have you had an opportunity of exam.ining a 
 number of men who have been working witli a certam 
 kind of satinwood ? — • Yes. 
 
 When ?- 
 
 -The finst time was in 1896. 
 Have your examinations continued to the pre- 
 sent time ? — I saw some last year. I have seen men on 
 three s<;parate occasions. 
 
 9891. Is satinwood still being used? — Satinwood is 
 still being used. 
 
 9892. Is it a peculiar kind of satinwood which you 
 have had under examination, or the ordinary satin- 
 wood which is generally in commercial use?— I have 
 not examined the satinwoods. The piece I produce 
 here is a sample of the kind the men were using when 
 they were troubled with irritation. I have only the 
 report on the satinwood, so far as 1 have received it 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 309 
 
 Jrom the men ; but there are different varieties of it 
 fljsed, according to the reports which appeared in the 
 "British Medical Journal." There is on0 coming 
 from the East and another from the West Indies. I 
 published an article myself in the "British Medical 
 .Journal" in 190^ and, following that, Dr. Bidie, 
 Surgeon-General at Baltimore, wrote on the 14th, 
 January, 1905. 
 
 9893. Will you give us the purport of his article ? — 
 I will read it if you do not mind. " In the ' British 
 Medical Journal ' of June 25th last there was a very 
 interesting paper by Mr. H. E. Jones on acute der- 
 matitis, produced by satinwood irritation. As there 
 .are two kinds of satinwood in use in Great Britain it 
 seems desirable to point out which of these is the 
 .dangerous variety. They come from different parts of 
 the tropics, and although very much alike in ap- 
 pearance they do not seem to have any botanical 
 .affinity. The satinwood with which I am most familiar 
 is derived from the deciduous true chloraxylon swie- 
 tenia which grows in Southern and Central India and 
 in Ceylon. It has an astringent bark, which is pre- 
 scribed by native physicians, and yields a yellow gum 
 rsolubl© in water, tih© mucilagie has a peculiar odour, 
 resembling that of fusil oil. The wood is close grained, 
 hard and yellowish brown in colour, and when polished 
 ishows a rich satiny lustre. It contains a yellow pig- 
 ment and a wood oil. It has been used from time 
 immemorial in Southern India for making ploughs, 
 oil mills, and carts, and more recently for cabinet 
 work, coachbuilding, and making naves of gun car- 
 riage wheels. In the earlier years of my Indian ser- 
 vice I was for a time stationed near the western forests 
 of Mysore, and while there devoted considerable at- 
 tention to the useful trees, and published in 1852 a 
 small manual of the timber trees of India. While collect- 
 ing materials for this brochure, much information was 
 got from native carpenters, timber contractors, etc., but 
 not one of these attributed any harmful properties to 
 satinwood. It may also be mentioned that modem 
 works on the timbers and other economic products of 
 India make no' allusion to. noxious properties 
 existing in satinwood It can therefore be 
 .confidently asserted that the East Indian timber 
 is harmless, and as a matter of fact very little of it 
 was taken to Europe, as the other variety which comes 
 irom Porto Rico and San Domingo is rnore plentiful 
 and cheaper. The botanical source of the latter is not 
 accurately known, but is supposed by some authorities 
 to belong to Ebenacioe, a statement which seems 
 ■doubtful, as none of the members of that family appear 
 -to possess acrid or irritant qualities. In some species 
 the bark of Ebenacioe is astringent, and a few edible 
 fruits, of which the persimmon is an example. Like 
 the East Indian variety, the West Indian timber con- 
 tains an oil, and it seems probable that this constituent 
 of it is the offending element. Be this as it niay, if 
 iurther experience shows that West Indian satinwood 
 is often hurtful to workmen it would seem desirable to 
 'discard it and use the other variety, which is just as 
 ■good for artistic purposes and harmless to the artificer. 
 '(Signed) G. Bidie, M.B., C.I. E., and K.H.S., Surgeon- 
 General." There is another article following that by 
 Dr. Grabham, and he speaks of the other satinwood, 
 which is the very opposite, and points out where satin- 
 wood would be harmful. This was an article in the 
 "British Medical Journal" of April 15th, 1905, by 
 Dr. Grabham, M.A., M.B., of Canterbury, written fro-n 
 Kingston, Jamaica. He says, " Shortly after reading 
 Dr. H. E. Jones's article on this subject I happened 
 to mention the facts to a planter living in the western 
 hills of this island, where the satinwood grows abun- 
 dantly, and he at once informed me that an irritable 
 eruption was well known aroonsist the labourers hand- 
 ling the wood, also that he had himself suffered from 
 a painful sensation in his hands after turning satin- 
 wood in a lathe. Lately, at my request, he has been 
 good enough to send me specimens of the leaves and 
 wood, from which it ap.pe.a.iis that the ®a4;inwood is 
 ^ierived from no less ilhan four Gpecies of Eagana." 
 
 9894. (Chairman.) How many men had you under 
 observation suffering from this illness altogether ? — I 
 should say about a dozen. , 
 
 9895. How many men would have been working with 
 the wood, do you think, altogether? — I am unable to 
 answer that. 
 
 9896. Would it be some hundreds or scores?— Not 
 .«o many as that ; a comparatively small number. 
 
 9897. Had they all been working in the shipbuilding 
 
 yards at Govan?-Yes ; others, I have heard of since, m,- n v 
 have been working down the Clyde. V "• ^■ 
 
 nono -m^ i , ^ J "■ Jones, 
 
 9S9B. What were the symptoms ?— The first man who M-B., cm. 
 came to me fiad his face in a state of acute inflamma- ,- ,r^ ,^, 
 tion--it was swollen; his eyes were literally closed ~'^}f^^i- 
 his ears were very much swollen and red, and also 
 lus neck. He gave me the appearance of one suffering 
 irom erysipelas. His hands and wrists were also very- 
 much swollen and red. In a few days this redness 
 gave way to a swelling still further, and a lot of 
 moisture. There were blisters in some parts, and after 
 a considerable period the skin came off altogether. 
 
 9899. Did he then recover?— He then reoovered, and 
 after remaining from work until he was better. 
 
 9900. How long would that be ?— He told me he had 
 been suffering five weeks before he saw me— that he 
 had gone back to work on two or three occasions, but 
 he had to knock off soon again. On going back the 
 men were unable to stand the work for so long a 
 time as before ; the new skin became much more easily 
 irritated, and they were not able to stand the irritation 
 so well. 
 
 9901. Were the symptoms all the same ?— Yes. 
 
 9902. Did you find any constitutional symptoms, 
 such as affections of the heart ? — None whatever. 
 
 9903. They were purely superficial, were they ? — They 
 were purely superficial. 
 
 9904. Have you any doubt in your own mind that 
 the illness was due to the working with this particular 
 wood? — ^I do not think it could be otherwise, seeing 
 that when they left ofi the work they got all right, and 
 got bad when they went back to it again. 
 
 9905. Were all the parts exposed to the dust 
 attacked ? — Yes, such as face, nose, ears, neck, hands 
 and wrists. 
 
 9906."lSave you come across similar symptoms 
 amongst working men who have been engaged in work- 
 ing with other woods 7 — No. 
 
 9907. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Have you ever attempted 
 to separate the poison in this wood ? — No, I have not. 
 but it has been tried by others, and I have several 
 letters from South Kensington! upon the mattej'. I 
 called this morning to see Mr. Holmes, who wrote me 
 on the subject, but he was not there. Mr. Holmes, in 
 writing to me, told me that he was having the crystals 
 examined and he would let me know the result. Tha; 
 was in Dece'mber, 1905, but since then I have had no 
 report. Having heard nothing further on the subject 
 I thought it was dead, until I received your telegram a 
 few days aigo. 
 
 9908. You do not know really, then, whetbsr there 
 is a s.e.parable poisonous material or not ? — I Jo not 
 know. 
 
 9909. And the crystals appear to. be confined, appar- 
 ently, to a flaw in the wood ? — No. 
 
 9910. DOi the crystals go right through the grain ? — 
 Yes, but they are very much worse in the flaws. 
 
 9911. Are those crystals silica ? — I do not know. 
 
 9912. It would be rather desirable, would it not,^ to 
 try themi on some animal ?— They have been tried 
 already, I think. 
 
 9913. Has any extract been separated from this wood 
 and tried on an animal, or tried on some one artifi- 
 cially ?— I cannot tell you more than the papers on th 
 subject state. 
 
 9914. (Dr. Legge.) Have you ever tried to get inside 
 the shipbuilding yards to see the processes through which 
 the wood is put 1 — Yes. 
 
 9915. Have you been able to do so?— Yes. 
 
 9916 Did you find the wood being actually worked 
 at the time of your visit ?— No. I have been through 
 the places, but not when they were working on the 
 satinwood. 
 
 9917 From the inquiries you made amongst the 
 men, did you learn of cases which occurred amongst 
 those who were not exposed to the action of the dust ? 
 —No. 
 
 9918. Did you m,ake inquiries on the subject?— Yes, 
 I did. ' 
 
 9919. And you found, did you, that it was limited, to 
 those who were exposed to the dust ? — Yes. 
 
 9920 Did you inquire whether there were any means 
 adopted for the removal of the dust?— The Factory 
 Inspector called on me shortly after my article appsareJ 
 
810 
 
 JHXUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. E. E. 
 
 Jotie-s', 
 yvB., C.M- 
 
 25 Mar. 190: 
 
 III llie paper, ami afterwards lie went to the place, I 
 believe. 
 
 9921. Did tju ever hear the result of his inquiry? — 
 • He sent me nO' report, but I understand he said if it 
 
 continued some appliances for ventilation or dust 
 extraction had better be introduced. 
 
 9922. Has there been any mitigation, do you know, 
 since the time you wrote your report ? Have you seen 
 as many rases since ? — There have been more in other 
 yards. 
 
 9923. Wliat is the longest time which you have had 
 to keep a man, suffering from this disease, away from 
 work ? — ^Every time they went back to work on the satin- 
 wood it returned, and the man eventually had tO' give 
 up. Two men went back to the same yard where they 
 had been before and they were unable to work in the 
 joiner's shop at the wood, and latterly they were unable 
 to go into the shop at all, because the dust of the shop 
 seemed to irritate the skin. They were then senitto 
 another and a higher loft and isolated, and have worked 
 with other wood and got on all right. 
 
 9924. Is the use of this wood intermittent ? — Yes, it 
 is only used for ornamental purposes, and it is only an 
 occasional order in shipbuilding that asks for satin- 
 wood. 
 
 9925. Have you heard of similar cases treated by 
 other medical men besides yourself ? — At the time I saw 
 these cases two or three medical men also saw them, and 
 Dr. B arras, the medical officer of Govan, also saw 
 them. He treated a few of them, while I treated some 
 others. Dr. Campbell also saw one or two oases, and 
 some of the men went from doctor to doctor ; they did 
 not confine th&mselves to any one doctor. 
 
 9926. Do I gather that the skin gets so permanently- 
 injured that they become more susceptible to the effects 
 on returning to work ? — Quite so. I may say that the 
 first man who came to me told me of others, and I saw 
 four of them, whom I sent to see Professor Sir Thomas 
 Anderson, who is a skin specialist, and he said he 
 thought it must be due to something in the wood with 
 which the men were working. He knew nothing about 
 what kind it was, but he said he thought the irrita- 
 tion must be due to the wood. That was in 1898 — the- 
 first lot of men I saw. 
 
 9927. Did you send any iof the material to the 
 Imperial Institute ? — The material has been sent tO' 
 several places, but I do not know where it has been sent 
 to. Mr. "VVhitton, the Superintendent of Parks iu 
 Glasgow, got two or three samples of satinwood from 
 me to send to London, and some 28 lbs. of satinwood 
 dust were sent to London. 
 
 9928. Expei-imentally the production of dermatitis is- 
 not confirmed, is it ? — My explanation of that is that it 
 is a different satinwood. So far as the men were con- 
 cerned, they required to be at work with the wood 
 for some considerable time before it had any effect. 
 
 9929. It was a cumulative effect, was it? — Yes. it 
 oame on after a lapse of six or seven weeks. You 
 would need to experiment with a man in the same 
 way. 
 
 9930. {Mr. Cunyrighame.) I see Mr. James O'Grady, 
 trade organiser, writes in a pajnphlet, and says that 
 the wood in question is yellow in colour, and used in 
 place of satinwood, which seems to imply that it is not 
 satinwood, and, secondly, he says that it comes from, 
 the Congo, in West Africa. Have you seen, that ? — T, 
 do not know where he gets his information from. 
 
 THIRTY-FOURTH DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, 26th March 1907, 
 
 PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hexbt CrunrNGHAiiE, c.b. 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 1 Mr. T. M. Legge, ix.d. 
 
 Professor Cliffoed Allbtjtt, r.E.s. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott {Secretary}. 
 
 Mr. D. C. Ctjmmings, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. D. C. 
 Cummings. 
 
 26 Mar. 1907. 
 
 9931. {Chairman.) Are you the General Secretary of 
 the Boilermakers' and Iron andl Steel Shipbuilders' 
 Society ? — Yes. 
 
 9932. Do you attend here to-day to give evidence on 
 behalf of that society ?— Yes. 
 
 9933. Do you consider that the men following your 
 trade suffer specially from any form of heart trouble ? 
 
 Yes, but it is principally on account of the heavy 
 
 work, and working piece-work. Our medical men, who 
 ar,3 appointed to every branch throughoi^ the society, 
 are constantly telling us that the heart troubles are 
 on account of the exhaustive work, combined with 
 piece-work. 
 
 9934. Which departments of work are the men 
 engaged in who suffer specially from these diseases? — 
 I should say principally the rivetters. Their work is 
 continual, especially in these days, when s'hipbuilding 
 and boiler work is increasing in weight, and the work 
 is much heavier than it was ten or twenty years ago. 
 It is constantly getting heavier, and although there is 
 a great deal of machine work now introduced, a great 
 portion of the work, especially on the ships, has to 
 be done by hand rivetting. We find with every fresh 
 introduction into the trade, where the work is made 
 heavier, as it were, suddenly — that is to say, a new 
 type of vessel or boiler comes into existence — there is 
 
 increasing sickness. That has been our experience over 
 many years. 
 
 9935. Are the symptoms shown by your members 
 different from the symptoms shown by other people 
 who exhaust themselves by hard work? — I should say 
 yes, with the exception, perhaps, of blacksmiths who 
 may be working piece-work. 
 
 9936. But I suppose it is after a man has been work- 
 ing for a very considerable number of years that he 
 finds his heart affected by the arduousness of his 
 labour? — The medical men tell us, on examination of 
 quite younig men — rivetters — that they can tell what 
 occupation they follow. 
 
 9937. Do you consider that those diseases ought to 
 be scheduled under the Workmen's Compensation. Act ? 
 — That is perhaps difficult, rmlesa' it could be proved 
 that it was the direct cause. 
 
 9938. Supposing they were scheduled, who do you 
 think ought to pay the compensation, seeing that the 
 disease would be of extremely gradual growth over a 
 long period of years, when a man might have been 
 working for half-a-dozen different employers ?^-That, 
 perhaps, would be rather difficult to say, although the 
 same thing applies to accidents. If a man loses his 
 eye, and he is certified as being able to foUow hia 
 
DEPARTMENTA-L COMMITTEE OX IXi^USTRIAL DLSE V.SE.S 
 
 311 
 
 •employment, if he is employed again, and his other 
 eye gets injured, the latest employer has to pay. 
 
 9939. Then the accident clearly happens in the 
 employment of the last employer, does it not ?— Yes ; 
 but if the man had had two eyes it would not have 
 .affected him, probably. 
 
 , 9940. Do you consider that your members suffer 
 from rheumatism more than other people do ?— So it is 
 reported to us by the medical men. They say there is 
 a great dsal of rheumatism and paralysis and lung 
 .and chest complaints as well. 
 
 9941. But these are all diseases not peculiar tO' the 
 trade, are they, as lead poisoniag is peculiar to lead 
 workers, or anthrax is peculiar to those who are 
 engaged in handling wool and skins ?— No, not in the 
 same sense, but we show a greater proportion than any 
 ■other trade engaged in engineering or iron shipbuilding. 
 
 9942. If you had a particular case of a man suffer- 
 ing from one of these ailments, is it your opinion 
 that it would be possible to say, "This man's disease 
 is due to his employment" ? — In some cases, yes, where 
 men in repairing work have to get into boilei-s which 
 hava been lately under steam. Some regulation ought 
 to be applied by which the boiler should be sufficiently 
 cooled down. Say a vessel is ready to go to saa., and 
 there is some leakage discovered in the boiler, although 
 men do not always have to get inside, they have more 
 often to get into the fire boxes ; but there are occasions 
 .on which it is neosssary to get inside the boiler, and, 
 the boiler not being cooled down sufficiently, they work 
 in extreme heat, they come out and get a chill, and 
 there have been cases of death in a very short time, 
 ■or tliey have been so much affected as to be tinabls to 
 work at their trade. 
 
 9943. That is through getting a chill by coming from 
 a hot temperature to a cold temperature? — Yes. I 
 think that should be scheduled, or there should be 
 ■some restriction guarding the men against going into a 
 "boiler which was too hot. Certainly, there may be a 
 •cargo on board and the ship waiting to go to sea. 
 
 9944. But if the men wrapped up warmly when they 
 ■came out would they not be safeguarded from chill ?i — 
 That is impossible under working conditions. A man 
 ■combes out, perhaps, for a few minutes to breathe, be- 
 •cause with the heat and steam arising it is sometimes a 
 •question of breathing. Perhaps there is a little neglect 
 when a man gets a sudden chill. 
 
 9945. Apart from that, do you think it would be 
 •difficult to distinguish in these cases of heart trouble, 
 Theumatism, lung or chest complaint whetbar or not 
 
 the disease was due to the man's work ? — Yes, it would 
 
 be very difficult to trace. 
 
 9946. Do you think it would be impossible to trace 
 in a court of law ? — In a few cases it might be so, but 
 not in the majority. 
 
 9947. In what cases? — ^Where it was found that a 
 man was quite healthy at first, and he had been con- 
 tinually at work of this description under some re- 
 pairin,g employer. It might be somewhat more difficult 
 with heart complaints, but I think chronic rheumatism 
 might be quite easy to trace. Every man that enters 
 the society has to pass a. medical inspection and get a 
 -clean bill of health before he starts, and if he is affected 
 he is refused as a benefit member of the society. If 
 
 -within two or three yea.rs aftei-wards it was found that 
 through certain classes of work he had certain com- 
 •plaints, I think it could be easily traced. 
 
 9948. With regard to deafness, do your members 
 suffer specially from that ?— Yes ; that is quite attri- 
 buted to the trade. Even some of us who have been 
 away from it for som:3 years feel that difficulty ; the 
 doctors tell uis that it is impossible to cure it. They 
 ■cannot just decide what is the actual cause. I was m 
 ■conversation the other day with one of our medical 
 
 men, who h.as been connected with the sociisty for over 
 ■forty, years, at Newcastle, and his opinion is that the 
 continual vibration on the drum of the ear caused by 
 the noise thickens it in some way, and they can find 
 no possible cure for it. 
 
 9949. The men go on working, do thtey not ? — In most 
 cases a man gets used to the noise, and he seemed to 
 lie able to he^ar in the noise better than when things 
 aiB quiet. 
 
 9950. Have you known cases in your union of men 
 receiving superannuation or sick pay because they are 
 
 ■unable to work on account of deafness ?— Yes ; they 
 •come on earlier than in most trades on that account 
 
 ti^m^rll, ^" '""I P^^^^lysis and chronic rheumal ^6 Mar. W07. 
 nsm and heart complaints. 
 
 suW; .^""^P"'^ *\^* "^^^^"^^ ^«^''» scheduled as a 
 subject of compensation, a man would only get com- 
 pensation if he was prevented from workfn| by Ws 
 
 titrZ'. ^ ^ f'/ "^^ I™1^ °"ly set <^ampensation 
 It he was unable to work from lead poisoningf Would 
 It be worth while to schedule deafness when the cases 
 are exceedingly few (if, indead, they occu? in wMch 
 a man is incapacitated by the deafness alone?— I can 
 quite see the great difficulty in proving it, because 
 th,3y go on working as long as possible. I cannot call 
 to mind a case m which a man has left work in younc 
 lite. ^\ e have men injured through deafness, but thsS 
 conies under the Compensation Act in another way • 
 that IS to say, Avhen something is happening, and they 
 an3 too_deaf to hear a warning cry, that accounts, per- 
 haps, for more accidents amongst our men than 
 amongst men in other trades. 
 
 9952. Do they suffer from any peculiar diseases of 
 the eye ^— Only blindness, or partial blindness, comini.- 
 on rather early m life in consequence of the continual 
 entry into the eye of foreign matter. I have lost part 
 ot the sight of one eye myself from that ; it is impossi- 
 ble to read by it ; it went before I was thirty years of 
 age. -^ •' 
 
 9953. AVas it in consequence of sparks?— It was 
 through a piece of hot scale. But you are continually 
 getting in our trade foreign matter into the eye, and 
 it is common to find in almost every yard someone 
 with a magnetic knife to extract it. We have an enor- 
 mous number of eye troubles, but that is, of course, 
 apart from disease. 
 
 9954. Do you say through trivial accidents oocuLrmg 
 again and again to the pye, each one not sufficient to 
 incapacitate the men, ultimately the eye itself is 
 ruined?— Yes, it gradually injures the sight, and we 
 have men leaving off work and going on to the fund 
 through partial blindness. Under our rules a man can 
 claim a bonus which is supposed to help to give liini 
 another start in life. Of cours-e, he cannot claim 
 compensation unless it is an injury right out, and then 
 he claims another bonus— what we call a sick bonus. 
 
 9955. Have you any statistics showing the number of 
 cases of men in your trade whose sight is injured in 
 this way, who would not get compensation for acci- 
 dents ? — It is possible to get them ; we keep a record 
 of how many bonus cases there are in each year, but 
 I should say out of that number there would not be 
 more than three or four per year. 
 
 9956. Three or four a year whose eyesight has been 
 gradually affected ?— Yes, in the way I have described. 
 
 9957. They are not men who suffered by definite 
 accidents ? — The definite accidents come under another 
 list of accident bonuses, they get twice the amount of 
 money as a bonus to help them. There are two 
 bonuses, one of £100 and the other £50. 
 
 9958. Then do they recover their sight after being 
 away from work? — Very seldom, in one or two ^.-ases 
 they have sufficiently recovered for a man to make 
 another attemiDt at the trade, but we find it is only a 
 matter of a year or two before he is off work again. 
 
 9959. Otherwise what happens to them ? Are they 
 able to engage in some other employment, or is their 
 sight too bad to enable them to do anything at all ? — 
 Sometimes they may go into other employment, but 
 most of them go into some small business where the 
 wife and familj' can help them. I know of a few who 
 have gone labouring, but it is very seldom they are 
 employed in that way. They can only get such em- 
 nloyment under a sympathetic employer. 
 
 9960. Do you find that these cases occur witjiin a 
 few years after a man has entered the trade, or is it 
 always after he has been employed for a considerable 
 period ? — I think it is of slow growth, they get well 
 into and past middle age before being affected. 
 
 9961. (Mr. Ciuninghamc.) In Dr. Oliver's book en- 
 titled "Dangerous Trades," he states, "Boiler makers 
 as a class are not unliealthy. At the present time vliere 
 are 38,000 members of the Society. In 1889 iliere 
 died 436 members, a number equal to 9 per 1,000, as 
 against 8 per 1,000 of the male population of the 
 country generally." Would you agree with that general 
 estimate? — Except that it has increased during liie 
 
312 
 
 MIXCTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. D. C. l^st six or sevfii years. The average death-rate for 
 Ciimmings. the last five years has been over 10 per 1,000. 
 
 •'ti ^Iai~19<t7 ^^^2- ""^^^^ '"*® published in 1902?— Yes, but Dr. 
 I 1 ' Oliver did not get the figures from us as lately as that. 
 
 9963. Have you the figures showing th« later increasa 
 — because it mvist be a considerable increase ? Yout 
 statement that your members suffer 50 per C3nt. more 
 than members of other trades in the country rather 
 astonisehed me, because all the returns and Dsports we 
 have rather show that it is not an unusually unhealthy 
 t.rade 1 — If a boy is going to the shipyard and the boiler 
 shop, and there are two or three sons of a family, the 
 strongest and healthiest son is picked O'Ut to go into 
 that trade, if the father makes any selection at all, 
 because of his knowledge that it will require a strong 
 man to do the heavy work. 
 
 9964. But you oould hardly say, could you, that be- 
 causs the trade requires the strongest boy to be put in. 
 it, therefore you are to consider it an unhealthy trade 1 
 — No, I do not mean it in that way. I think we there- 
 foD© ought to have a less amount of sickness. Taking 
 the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, they have 
 about 100,000 members — we have 50,000, roughly 
 speaking — their membership is just about double ours. 
 Our average of members last yeaa: on the sick list was 
 2,100 odd, and thsirs about 3,000 out of the 100,000 ; 
 what applies to about five years' average, and it is from 
 that I get my figure of 50 per cent. 
 
 9965. Where can the Committee get these figures ? 
 — Each society publishes what we call a monthly 
 report. I have not them with me, but I could send 
 them to the Committee. Looking at the Engineers' 
 figures and also the Associated Shipwrights' figures, 
 our figures come out much higher. 
 
 9966. Theire are many ways in which that might be 
 accounted for ; your society might perhaps take a less 
 strict standard for relief, might it not 1 — Quite so ; but 
 against that is the great number of accidents we have, 
 compared with other trades, because of the nature of 
 the work. 
 
 9967. But as the Committee have only to deal with 
 diseases, you vrould have to take out the accidents on 
 both sides, would you not, because a large proportion 
 might be accidents? — ^That would be rather difficult 
 to get, because, with regard to men on the sick' fund, 
 we do not separate the accidents from other cases. 
 
 9968. But as we know your accidents are numerous, 
 yon fail to prove your case if you do not separate them 
 somehow or other, do you not? The difference may be 
 due, and a large portion we know is due, to the greater 
 number of accidents. Then is it not for you, in order 
 to make out a case for exceptional treaitment here, to 
 show that the incapacity is due to disease in part? — 'I 
 think a lot of it is due to some affection of the heart 
 that requires a man to go off for rest for a few weeks. 
 
 9969. We have a very sympathetic and friendly 
 author vpriting and saying boilermakers are not un- 
 healthy, and giving his reasons, and he is against you 
 apparently, is he not? — I do not want to question any- 
 thing Dr. Oliver has said. 
 
 9970. But your conclusions are very different from 
 Dr. Oliver's, are they not? — Dr. Nowton, living in 
 the same town, has been connected with our men for 
 forty years, and is tlie medical attendant for one of 
 our branches, and he comes to quite a contrary con- 
 clusion. 
 
 9971. Then if there is an issue between them on the 
 matter, it is one that requires a good deal of in- 
 vestigation, is it not ?' — Quite so. 
 
 9972. I suppose it is conceded, thougji of course it 
 is a great disadvantage for a man to be deaf, that it 
 does not interfere with his employment. A man is no 
 worse for being deaf, is he? Have jou any case in 
 which a man has come on your funds from deafness 
 alone, and no other cause whatever? — No, I do not 
 think there are many cases. 
 
 9973. But is there one? — We have 'had an odd case 
 or two in which a man has been certified as unable to 
 follow his work because of extreme deafness, which 
 makes it impossible almost for him to hear a sound ; 
 but that is not a very ordinary case. In ordinary cases 
 we are very nearly all deaf, and it is evident within a 
 year or two of a lad's apprenticeship. 
 
 9974. I fail to see that you prove that deafness pre- 
 vents a hoilermaker following his employment. In some 
 respect, in so far as the employment goes, one would 
 
 almost rather be a little deaf, would he not, because- 
 it prevents one hearing the clang, whch I admit is an 
 awful thing ? — I do not think there are cases in whiclt 
 I could bring very strong proof. Deafness has an 
 effect in this direction, that it is responsible for some 
 of the accidents. 
 
 9975. If a thing like deafness was to be put down as- 
 a cause, and a man oould get compensation when he- 
 became deaf, it might end in a* considerable amount 
 of men being eliminated from the trade. Blight it not, 
 before they were unfit, and so it might tell consider- 
 ably against the workers, might it not ? — Yes, that is a 
 danger which I have seen. 
 
 9976. Altogether, do I understand from you that 
 you have rather a doubt in pressing the case of deaf- 
 ness ? — ^Yesi ; I think it would be very difficult to prove;, 
 or that it could be clearly shown thiat a man was off 
 work in consequence of that. 
 
 9977. It would be of doubtful advantage to the men 
 to include it, would it not? — ^Yes, I am of that opinion 
 myself, because we have found that, even with the 
 accidents to the eye, it is a doubtful advantage to say 
 ioo much about it. 
 
 9978. You have a certain bonus scheme, I under- 
 stand. Is there a special bonus with regard to the eyes ? 
 — No, it afiects all accidents ; but we have a consider- 
 able number of eye accidents. Every man who meets- 
 with an accident totally incapacitating him is en- 
 titled to £100 from the society. 
 
 9979. In your case, a splinter flew into your eye, and 
 you would have had compensation in the ordinary 
 way ; but if we were to inohide gradual deterioration 
 of the eyes from the employment, would not clerks, 
 draughtsmen, and a whole mass have to come in?' 
 After all, does not any employment gradually injure 
 the eye, and oould you really call it a distinctive trade- 
 disease ? Is it marked enough P And is it not better, in 
 fact, to leave it as a question of accident in the in- 
 terests of the men themselves ? — Yes, I thiiik it would' 
 perhaps be best to leave it in that way. 
 
 9980. If some day a disease could be proved more- 
 distinctly, it might be a different matter ? — What I con- 
 sider would be a solution of it would be for some- 
 special provision to be made for men losing one ©ye. 
 
 9981. That would be an accident, would it not?— 
 Yes, but even then he is certified as fit to follow his- 
 employment. In fact, I heard an insurance agent 
 make the remark with regard to a man who had lost- 
 one eye completely, that the power of the other eye- 
 was one half, and he certified him as fit to follow his 
 enlployment. In that case the man is under an ex- 
 treme difficulty in getting employment. He has lost 
 one eye, and has only half power in the other. 
 
 9982. Then he would get compensation for the loss 
 of one eye, would he not ? — No, only for the weeks he= 
 is off work; he would have to be almost totally blind, 
 before he could come on for compensation. 
 
 9983. {Professor Allbuti.) With regao-d to " heart 
 diseases " or "eye disease," neither of these are such 
 terms as convey any definite idea to' a medical man, 
 do they ? — No. 
 
 9984. That, of course, is the first difficulty. And yoiu- 
 hypothesis of the gradual accumulation of accidents - 
 ending in permanent injury to the eye is very specula- 
 tive, is it not? — Is not it possible if you get particles- 
 of iron continually in your eye week by week, even al- 
 though they are removed in a very little while, and youi 
 go on with your work, to bring about a gradual but. 
 sure permanent injury to the eye ? 
 
 9985. Not if the man got well between each accident. 
 You see, "disease of the eye" may mean cataract, 
 which is an internal disease, or, agaiii, it may raean^ 
 disease of the optic nerve, and so forth? — Quite so. 
 
 9986. Can you produce to the Committee reports 
 from medical men, in which the various forms of eye- 
 defect are classified ?— No, I am afraid they are too 
 short in their reports. They simply say this man is- 
 suffering from partial blindness brought on no doubt 
 through working at his trade. 
 
 9987. That is merely an opinion, is it not ?— Yes. 
 9993. Saying a man is blind is no. more definite than 
 
 saymg a man is weak"?— That information could only 
 be obtained by writing to some of our medical men. 
 
 9989. The same difficulty applies, does it not, to- 
 heart disease? You do go into a little more detailed, 
 diagnosis with regard to that, but you cannot tell us,. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 ai3 
 
 I suppose, what relation rheumatism bears to the 
 heart disease, can you? — No. 
 
 9990. You know, I daresay, as a matter of common 
 knowledge, that heart disease follows rheumatism very 
 frequently? — Yes, very frequently. 
 
 9991. So that if lou wish to presg thg,t,form of heart 
 diseaee you would have to consider the factor of rheu- 
 matism, would you not ? — Yes, I quite see the connec- 
 tion between the two. . 
 
 > 9992. .^o that heayt .disease fojlowing rheumatism 
 would.not be the dirept effect of occupation, would it 't 
 — I?o, but'tter© would be some foj-ins of heart .disease 
 or afiectibn the direct effect of heavy work,, though I 
 quite admit it is diflScUlt to trace. 
 
 .9993, You would have to call it by some such name 
 as heart strain, would you not ? — ^Yes. 
 : 9994. Do you think you can regard ordinajy wMr and 
 tear as a disease in this connection? There aie fifty 
 men, say, engaged in fifty different trades, and, of 
 course, there is wear and tear in all of them ; you 
 would not call this disease, quite, would you ?— No, it 
 comes perhaps gradually through the trade, but it is 
 difficult to schedule it as a disease. 
 
 9995. In any calling? — Yes, I quite understand that. 
 As the Chairman put it, it is impossible to put it in 
 the same class as anthrax. ' 
 
 ■ 9996. Tutting it broadly, wear and tear is one thing, 
 and a disease due =to a particular occupation is another, 
 is it not? — ^Yes, the only thing, of course, is that on 
 account of the work it is attributable more to our men 
 than to any other men. 
 
 9997. It comes on at an undue rate', do you mean? — 
 Yes, it comes on much quicker and earlier, principally, 
 I think, caused through piece work, because it is 
 natural .if they were working time work,, they would 
 not work nearly so hard. The piece work system is a 
 thing which it is almost impossible to abolish ; it is 
 almost a second life to the trade. 
 
 9998. I thought rivetting was done by pneumatic 
 and other machinery ?;^Not much in the shipyards- 
 
 9999. Is the rivetting hammer a heavy hammer? — 
 Not very heavy, but to-day rivetting . up under the 
 bottom of a vessel in awkward' positions is heavy work ; 
 the rivets must all be knocked up from underneath, 
 and there are thousands of men doing hand rivetting in 
 the country. 
 
 ,10000. Do you consider it harder labour than a man 
 wielding a 12 or 14 lb. hammer?— Yes, it is heavier 
 work than a smith's striker, because in wielding a 
 heavy hammer you get a. swing with it. With the 
 'rivetting hammier it is all done from the shbulder, and 
 then it ^is all so rapid. Riveters work in twos, and 
 the rivets must be knocked down as quickly as possible 
 while they are hot. The men -work at enormous speed, 
 ,aiid the .motion is quite different and more exhausting 
 ' , than ^© motion of wielding a sledge hamme-r. 
 ■' ilOOOl. Do you-think the rapid work in a very awk- 
 ward • position would have the same or a similar kind 
 of strain upon a man's heart and organs as the more 
 ilsisureiy swinging of, a big harnmer?— I think so, and 
 ijiore. If you take the heavy Scotch boiler (which is 
 now giving place to the water tube boilers), which fol- 
 Idwpj. a much lighter boiler, different in shape, when 
 they were ,fi,rst introduced steel rivets an inch and a 
 quarter, and someitimes an inch and a half in dia,meter, 
 were used and- worked by band, and it was noticeable 
 on the big 'battleships that the contractors' men who 
 were do-ing work On. the boilers came on the. sick list in 
 I far greater numbers than they hithertoihad done, until 
 •■ Wtters s^-eadied themselves somewhat as the men got 
 worie^ into it. . They used to, have- to- leave work for a 
 week or two for a rest, a,nd the cases were certified as 
 trouble -of the 'heart. 
 
 10002. A very latge number of them had disturbance 
 
 of the heart ?— Yes, it was certifiM by the medical 
 
 men for putting them on the sick fund, that they had 
 
 «ome disturbance of the heart. 
 
 l' . 10003. Have you in your society men whose labour is 
 
 ' heavy in the commen sense of violent exertion? — Yes, 
 
 that applies to most men on certain jobs. If you take 
 
 t}ie platers at the furnaces ;ili' bending the hot plates 
 
 fgr the stem and stern of the vessels, when the plates 
 
 we moved out of the furnaces, there is violent exercise, 
 
 Vt then they are assisted by men who swing the heavy 
 
 ^miners, and they, do not feel the strain that tlie 
 
 nVe.tter does, because .there is a rest occasionally, 
 
 whereas the rivetter is continually at it. I have seen 
 
 419 
 
 the difficulty in proving all these things sufficiently Mr. D. 0. 
 well to enable the Committee to schedule it in the Cumming's. 
 manner you would schedule other diseases. 
 
 10004. With regard to the heat of the boilers in ^^ ^^^O'' 
 which the men work, have yo,u any notio'n of what the ' '■ 
 heat is inside the -boilers ? Do you mean that it is 
 
 104 or 120 de'gi-ecsP^Yes, o,ften as hot as that. When 
 boiLs-reare under steam it is impossible to cool them 
 rapidly. ' 
 
 10005. Hqw long might a man have to work in a ; 
 temperature of 120 degrees?,— It very seldom occurs, 
 
 and it is only in cases of extreme necessity. Then the 
 man is not in many moments, and has to come out for 
 a breather. Mostly the ' repairs are in the furnaces, 
 and though it is exceedingly hot in .there, he gets bags 
 to lie upon, and there is a current of air coming m 
 from the furnace mouth. That does not affect him 
 much. It has to be done at sea, for . instance, if any- 
 thing goes wrong, but the dangerous cases have been 
 when men have had to get inside the boiler itself . 
 
 10006. Do you think such cases are so rare tha.t we 
 need not make any special provision for them,? — ^I 
 tViink in a case of that descriptibn,"wh6re a man could 
 prove he had been compelled to enter a boiler, and 
 had got a chill. We ought to be able to claim compensa- 
 tion for him under the Act. ' ■ , ' ■ 
 
 10007. Unless proper means had been taken to make 
 it safe. It is easily preventable, is it not? — Yes, by 
 a little more'delay, and that is why I think sbmetAiing 
 should be done in that direction. ' . ■ . • 
 
 10008. (Dr. Legge.) Do you know the comparative 
 mortality figures of persons engaged in different in- 
 dustries published by Dr. Tathain, the Superintendent 
 of Statistics ? — No, I only know that the general death 
 rate of peop'le over twenty is about eight per thousand. 
 
 10009-10. I suppose you have been struck by the 
 frequency of rheumatism in the certificates ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10011. ' But is hot it the case that you find the sariie 
 thing in aU sick clubs? — I only know that the doctors- 
 tell us that our returns at© greater. In conversation 
 with medical men in different parts of the country, they 
 have said that it is due to. exposure in the ship yards, 
 and working in all weathers, the work being heavy- 
 work at the same time. 
 
 10012. It is very difficult to see from these figures-, 
 how a strong cas'e could be made out for treating boiler- 
 makers differently from others,- even as regards diseases 
 of the respiratory system or heart affections, is it not ? 
 — You see. Dr. Oliver gives' our increased death rate 
 amongst persons over twenty as higher than the average 
 death rate of the oouHtry. 
 
 10013. It is not as high as that of occupied males in 
 London, for instance, the comp.arativ6 figure for which 
 is 1,147? — That may be so. On the other hand, 
 although there is this trouble that comes on us through 
 the trade, we do have the benefit of working in the 
 fresh air on the sea and alongside the big rivers where 
 the air is purer. 
 
 10014. One often l^ears it said, perhaps by people- 
 who do not know much about it, that, people working 
 as you have described these men work will not wear 
 eye protectors, which can be worn. Can you say any- 
 thing as to that ? — ^That is true ; but the -difficulty is 
 to get an eye protector which is adequate. A man 
 puts on a protector simply with gauze on it, and a 
 doctor in G-reenock has a very good one. He attends 
 our men there. But it obscures the vision, and where- 
 a man cannot see quite so easily to do his. work, 
 especially if he is in a dark place, where he freqtiently- 
 is, in the bottom. of a vessel, he wili not wear it. My 
 jxperience is, if you get glasses they are more liable- 
 t,o cause injury, especdaUy with riveters working; 
 together -«dth the two hammers. Caulkers and others, 
 can wear them with ease, but where two riveters work 
 together, the, hammers, by a misblow, might come 
 together, and throw off dangerous splinters, which 
 might break the glass and injure the eyes. Then, 
 again, if there is glass in them, with a gauze covering 
 over it, tliey get very damp and wet, because the men 
 get very warm at their work. 
 
 10015. Do.qs youi- society encourage the use of eye 
 protectors ? — Yes, we do. In one or two. cases, where we 
 have found what we thought an excellent eye-guard in- 
 vented, we, have advertised it quite freely in our 
 monthly report, and oalled our members' attention to 
 it, especially the one I mentioned invented by the 
 doctor at Greenock two or three years ago. 
 
 2R 
 
314 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 Mk. J. JJioKissoN Leigh, m.d., f.e.c.s., l.b.c.p., d.p.h., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. D. 
 Leigh, 
 M.D., 
 
 F.R.C.S., 
 
 L.E.C.P., 
 
 D.P.H. 
 
 10016. {Chairman.) Are you a medical man now in 
 practice? — Yes. I was formerly one of the medical 
 referees under the Home Department. I am now 
 practising at Bishop Auckland, in the county of 
 Durham, and Mr. Wilson asked me to advise his Asso- 
 
 ciation on the cases to be brought before you to be 
 
 "26 Mar 1907 scheduled, and we ask you to consider the question of 
 
 J ■ beat hand, miner's elbow, miner's knee, traumatic 
 
 pneumonia, and nystagmus. 
 
 10017. Do you think there is any prevalence of 
 fibrosis of the lung among miners?— I have had no 
 experience of it. 
 
 10018. Have you ever come across a case of what is 
 called anthracosis ?— No.. Of course, from post-mortem 
 examinations I make, among them I find the typical 
 miners' lung, the blackened lung, but I have not found 
 any fibrosis. 
 
 10019. Never ? — ^I may have found an odd case, but it 
 has made no impression on my mind. In the post- 
 mortems I have made, the question has been whether 
 the case has been due to accident or disease, and I 
 have had quite a number every year for the Miners' 
 Association. 
 
 10020. Do you come across any considerable number 
 of cases of sprained wrist or strained wrist due, not to 
 accident, but to continually working with a pick or a 
 drill ? — Yes. I have found a good deal of it amongst 
 people working in the ship yards and the men who 
 have worked in the engine shops, and I have seen it 
 amongst miners using the pick. 
 
 10021. (Professor Allhutt.) That is a bursitis, 
 I suppose ? — It is really a synovitis. 
 
 10022. The Chairman intended to indicate a relaxa- 
 tion or displacement of the small bones ? — I have not 
 seen that. I have seen something which results in a 
 fluid in the tendons, and it usually lasts a week or ten 
 days, but we find by blistering or painting with iodine 
 and pressure you get rid of it. 
 
 10023. Do you see men going about wearing straps 
 on the wrists ? — Yes. 
 
 10024. Does that suggest to you that the fascia may 
 have got relaxed ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10025. But still they do not complain to you much 
 ■of it? — Yes, they do complain. 
 
 10026. {Chairman.) Do you ever come across cases of 
 men incapacitated from working by that? — ^Yes. I 
 
 have seen that, too ; but I have found it to occur more 
 •commonly among the Cleveland ironstone men, who 
 
 used to complain a great deal of it. 
 
 10027. Of the strained wrist?— Of what they called 
 a strained wrist, but I never found any displacement 
 
 •oi the bone, or anything of that kind. 
 
 10028. Was there any overt symptom, or was 
 .it entirely subjective ? — ^You could detect it if you put 
 your hand on it and asked the man to move his 
 •fingers ; you could distinctly feel creaking, and then 
 there was a distinct swelling either on the back or the 
 front of the hand. 
 
 10029. Is that due to their employment, do you 
 think 1 — Undoubtedly. 
 
 10030. And it prevents them from working, does it? 
 — Quite. 
 
 10031. For how long a time? — ^A week to ten days. 
 
 10032. Not longer? — ^It depends a good deal on the 
 way it is treated. If a man comes at an early stage, 
 and you get him to knock off work, and treat it by 
 blistering, he soon gets better, but if the man still 
 persists in working it becomes chronic. 
 
 10033. (Professor Allbutt.) Where do you think it 
 is situated? — In the sheaths of the tendons. 
 
 10034. (Chairman.) A man may go on working for 
 some years, I suppose, with no symptoms, and then 
 develop it ?— Quite so. 
 
 10035. (Professor Allhutt) How do the ironstone 
 men injure their wrists ? — In the ironstone work they 
 drill holes with a long thing they call a jumper. 
 By pushing at the rook face they get a hole, into which 
 they put the powder, and while they are at work they 
 get at the same time a jar and a twist. 
 
 10036. (Dr. Legge.) Then there must be the ordinary 
 aigns of inflammation in connection with this sprained 
 wrist, I suppose ? — Yes. It is a thing that you cannot 
 mistake ; I mean it is a thing a man cannot assume he 
 has got. It is an objective thing distinctly. 
 
 10037. (Chairman.) It does not occur from accident ; 
 you think he has not jarred his wrist? — No, you cannot 
 put your finger on a particular day and say the accident 
 happened on that day. 
 
 10038. With regard to pneumonia, do you consider 
 that is in any sense a disease consequent on the em- 
 ployment? — My attention has been drawn to the sub- 
 ject as the result of injury. I am speaking of a con- 
 tusion pneumonia, pneumonia due to a definite 
 accident. I am not speaking of pneumonia from im- 
 pure air, or anything of that kind. 
 
 10039. That would hardly come within the purview 
 of this Committee, any more than blood poisoning fol- 
 lowing a wound ? — Our difSculty hitherto has been that 
 a man has a definite accident, say, tumbles across a 
 baulk of timber, and there is no extraordinary con- 
 tusion, but he dies, and when we make a post-mortem 
 we find no fracture of rib, but distinct pneumonia, 
 and our difficulty has been to have that included as an 
 accident. 
 
 10040. It could not be scheduled as a disease if the 
 claim is that it is due to accident, could it ? — You are 
 considering the question of pneumonia arising from 
 irritating particles, I presume, and as to that I have no 
 experience. 
 
 10041. In beat hand, is there always suppuration? — 
 No ; there are two varieties — ^the suppurative and the 
 non-suppurative — and, of course, the question of sup- 
 puration or otherwise affects the duration of the 
 disease. 
 
 10042. What is the technical name for beat hand ? — 
 It is really an inflammation of the palmar fascia. 
 
 10043. Have you found it amongst persons who are 
 not miners ? — Yes. Do you mean coal miners or iron- 
 stone miners ? 
 
 10044. I include them all ? — I have seen it amongst 
 men working in engine works, amongst men who hold 
 the chisels, gripping them as well as striking them, but 
 otherwise I have not seen it apart from coal and iron- 
 stone miners, and drill workers. 
 
 10045. Is miners' elbow frequent ? — That is a bursitis 
 really, and is not an exceptional thing, just the same 
 thing as housemaid's knee. A housemaid's knee and 
 a miner's knee are practically the same thing. 
 
 10046. What do you say as to nystagmus? — ^That is 
 a very difficult point to speak about, but no doubt it 
 is influenced very much by the height of the seam in 
 which the men work. If they are working in a small 
 thin seam you get it more frequently, but when work- 
 ing in the ironstone mines, 12 ft. high, you do not see it. 
 
 10047. Do you trace any connection between nystag- 
 mus and safety lamps ? We have had strong evidence 
 to the effect that nystagmus is due to insufficiency of 
 light, and that it is not found in non-fiery mines, where 
 candles are used 7— Quite so ; and in addition to the 
 Ught, there is no doubt the constrained position in 
 which a man works has to be taken into account. 
 
 10048. Do you find men can go back to their employ- 
 ment after a period of rest for the eyes ?-— Yes ; but it 
 is reproduced if they go to work ; it comes back again. 
 My experience is that you have to take a man prac- 
 tically off the work if you want to cure him. You have 
 to change his occupation, and never let him go back 
 to the mine again. If I had to treat a man, I should 
 advise him to go on to the surface to work. 
 
 10049. (Professor AllbuU.) Is the nystagmus itself, 
 apart from general symptoms, incapacitating— that is 
 to say, the mere oscillation of the eye ? — To a certain 
 extent, yes. 
 
 10050. How far would you go in the direction of cer- 
 tain evidence we have had that the degree of nystag- 
 mus and incapacity do not advance pa^i passu ; that 
 you may have very slight nystagmus, and yet genuine 
 subjective symptoms, or that another man may have 
 very considerable oscillation and be scarcely aware 
 that he has it ? — I should think that is quite possible. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 315 
 
 10051. That being so, it is exceedingly difficult to get 
 a standard of incapacity, is it not ?l— Yes, it is, and 
 I do not see how you can meet that point. 
 
 . 10052. (Chairman.) Do you come across cases of men 
 who suffer from poisoning by gas ? — Yes. 
 
 10053. Are those cases of sudden poisoning happen- 
 ing at a given moment, or are they cases in which a 
 man gets gradually debilitated? — I)o you mean by a 
 sudden falling down and becoming unconscious ? 
 
 10054. No, an escape of gas at a particular moment ; 
 or does it come from working for a prolonged period in 
 the impure atmosphere? — In the ironstone mines the 
 men become somewhat suddenly gassed from the sul- 
 phuretted hydrogen. In coal mining gassing is the 
 result of imperfect ventilation. They fire a charge 
 oic there is an escape of gas from the strata, and the 
 ventilation arrangements are somewhat faulty, then 
 you get it ; but it does not come on suddenly. A man 
 may, continue to work for an hour or two hours before 
 he has to come eut. 
 
 10055. Then is he ever incapacitated for a week or 
 more ? — Yes, I have known a man incapacitated for two 
 months as the result of gassing. 
 
 10056. Did he claim for compensation as an acci- 
 dent ? — Yes, but we could not prove it as an accident. 
 
 10057. Even though it happened at a given moment ? 
 —Even though it happened at a given moment. There 
 ■was one case where we made a post-mortem on a man, 
 and found he died from cerebral hseraorrhage. The 
 man who was working with him was also gassed, and 
 he is off work now. That is three months ago, but we 
 could not take the case into the County Court and 
 fight it, because we could not prove it was an accident. 
 What we could prove was that the brattice cloth, which 
 directed the air along this working, was faulty ; but we 
 could not prove an accident. As to that particular 
 case Alderman House will be able to give the details. 
 
 10058. What particular gas was that ? — A mixture (if 
 CO and C0=. 
 
 10059. Have you had many cases of that kind in your 
 experience? — No, I have not had very many. You see, 
 I am not doing contract practice at present. I am 
 doing general practice and some consulting work in the 
 way of operative surgery, and these cases, except the 
 post-mortem cases, and the ones I have just mentioned 
 to you, do not come my way now. 
 
 10060. (Professor Allbutt.) I suppose you would say 
 where a case results in cerebral hsemorrhage it 
 is an accelerated death upon a previous condition of 
 arterial degeneration? — Quite so. 
 
 10061. "With regard to beat hand, if non-suppura- 
 tive would it last longer than a week? — Yes, and 1 
 have known it last from three to six weeks. 
 
 Mr. J. J>, 
 Leigh, , 
 M.D., 
 
 F.R.C.S., 
 
 1..R.C.P., 
 D.P.H. 
 
 10062. If suppurative, is it always curable by proper 
 means?— Yes. j r i- _ 
 
 10063. It does not end in what is called Dupuytren's 
 contraction ?— No, I have not seen that result. 
 
 10064. (Dr. Legge.) Will you describe the symptom, 
 the other man is suffering from who you say was 
 gassed ?— At present he is suffering mentally. He 26 Mar. 190T. 
 
 became extremely depressed, lost his memory ; he -^ 
 
 suffered a great deal from insomnia, and he has now 
 
 got into a condition of melancholia. 
 
 10065. Do you recognise chronic poisoning by carbon 
 monoxide gas ?— Yes, I think you may have a chronic 
 form of poisoning, but I do not think you would get 
 it in coal mining. The men come out, you see. 
 
 10066. You do not attribute this particular case you 
 are referring toi to chronic carbon monoxide poison- 
 ing? — No, I think he was gassed at the same time, as 
 the other man, and he has never recovered from it. 
 
 10067. But he is suffering from the chronic effects, 
 is he not? — Do you mean he has been chronically 
 poisoned, or that he is in a chronic condition from the 
 first poisoning ? 
 
 10068. The latter ?— Then, I quite agree. What I 
 mean is that I have no experience in coal miners of 
 chronic poisoning by the escape of carbon monoxide, 
 as you find it amongst metal workers, where you get a 
 form of chronic poisoning from small quantities of 
 CO. 
 
 10069. Would it meet your point if the Committee 
 were to schedule carbon monoxide and its sequelae? — 
 Yes. 
 
 10070. (Chairman.) Do you find many cases of asthma 
 amongst miners ? — That we put down to emphysema. 
 
 iu071. Do you think it is in any sense an occupa- 
 tional disease, or is it much the same as the rest of 
 the working class suffer from ? — I think it is much the 
 same, but we do find enlargement of the heart. 
 
 10072. What is that due to?— I think it is due to- 
 working in a strained position. I have been struck, 
 with the fact in most of the post-mortems I have made 
 that there has been enlargement of the heart. 
 
 10073. Do you find many cases in which that inca-- 
 pacitates men from working ? — ^No, it does not incapa- 
 citate them. 
 
 10074. Then, it could not be the subject of compen- 
 sation ? — No. 
 
 10075. (Professor Allbutt.) The constrained position 
 signifies more muscular work, I suppose? — Yes. 
 
 10075. And these men are very muscular, I sup- 
 pose ? — Yes. 
 
 10077. (Chairman.) Bkive you any other point you 
 wish to lay before the Committee ? — No, I think that 
 is all. 
 
 Mr. J. Wilson, M.P.,and Alderman House, called and examined. 
 
 ' 10078. (Chairman.) Do you represent the Durham 
 Miners' Association? — (Mr. Wilson.) Yes. 
 
 10079. Do you desire to bring to the notice of the 
 Committee the same points as those on which we have 
 just heard evidence from Dr. Dickinson Leigh? — Yes. 
 
 10080. With regard t« boat hand, miner's knee, and 
 miner's elbow, the Committee have had so very much 
 evidence already from medical men and others that I 
 think it is hardly necessary for us to trouble you on 
 those points ? — We have always thought that beat hand 
 and housemaid's knee and elbow should have been 
 treated as accidents, because they arise purely and 
 specifically from the miners' employment, but we have 
 never been able to sustain .a case unless we could prove 
 a spratch or something of the kind -that initiated it. 
 
 10081. Buit does not -beat hand come on gradually in 
 the course of a week or two ? — But you can tell imme- 
 diately if it has been initiated by the work,, and it 
 would' be still as much an outcome of a man's employ- 
 ment as any other accident. ■ 
 
 10082. Have one or two cases been taken into court 
 in an endeavour to secure compensation as accident, 
 »nd the courts have held them not to be accident ?— 
 
 419 
 
 10083. Do you have many cases of nystagmus in jy^^ j 
 Durham? — It is not so prevalent as it used to be since i^h^q^ j^p_ 
 a better class of lamp has been introduced, but there is and Alder- "^ 
 a thing which induces it more, and that is the thin rmn House. 
 
 seams. Nystagmus arises from the obliquity of a 
 
 man's sight when he is working in the thin seams, as 
 compared with the seams four or five feet thick, where 
 
 a man sits on a little stool and looks down at his work, 
 whereas in the thin seams he has to lie on his side, 
 when his vision is rather oblique, which gives him a 
 twist in his sight, so that I am afraid the thin seam 
 is the cause of a large number of cases of that kind. 
 
 10084. Do you think it is impossible to tell when a 
 man is incapacitated from nystagmus ?— That, in my 
 opinion, would be a rather difficult thing to do, because 
 it is a thing that is very gradual. 
 
 10085. Do you think the fact that a man only gets 
 half wages when he is receiving compensation and full 
 wages when he is at work, would deter him claiming 
 compensation for nystagmus unless he was really in- 
 capacitated ? — You have to deal with human nature as 
 it IS but I am one of those who have a great faith in 
 the bona Mes of workmen. I am ready to admit that 
 tiere is malingering, and there would be malingering, 
 
316 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. J. 
 
 Wilpm,, at.P., 
 
 wid'Aliei'- 
 
 man House. 
 
 26 Mai. 1907. 
 
 and' the fact of a - mail getting" half wages iftight 
 be an inducement witli some ; but I do not 
 think, speaJcing generally, that men would take 
 half wages if they could work, becau-se their wants and 
 their families' wants depend on more than half wages. 
 I am making all the allowance I can for human nature, 
 and I believe that men, taken in the bulk, would work 
 if they could do so. 
 
 10086. Do you think that nystagmus ought to be 
 scheduled under the Workmen's Compensation Act ? — 
 Yes, if it could be. I recognise the difficulty of locat- 
 ing it, aoid tracing it j;o. its ,son.roe, or when.it^ starts ; 
 but, without going into it technically, which I can- 
 not do, I thinjt a man ought to be compensated Just 
 as much for that as he ought to be for an accident. It 
 is' a thing which arises purely out of his employment. 
 
 10087. Do you think that, the risk of occasional, 
 malingering ought not to prevent its being scheduled? 
 — No ; you will have malingering with accidents. 
 
 10088. (Professor AllbuH.) The difficulty seems to 
 be in translating the nystagmus into incapacity, does 
 it not? — Yea. 
 
 10089. Do you agree that many men may have very 
 considerable nystagmus and not bother their heads 
 much about it? — ^Yes. 
 
 10090. But another man who has it in a very much 
 less degree m,ay be .genuinely suffering a great deal. 
 Can you suggest any way of discriminating between 
 those two ? — No ; it would depend upon the bona fides 
 of a man. The common name in the North which we 
 had for it was glimmering. A man walked with his 
 head up, and in that position he was very apt' .to 
 injure himself in going into his work. 
 
 10091.' (Chairman.) With regard to gas poisoning, 
 do you oome across oases of men being gassed, ■ due to 
 working in an impure atmosphere and not due to 
 accident? — Yes; but I would like to say, with regard 
 to the North country (Durham) mines, that they are 
 very well ventila'ted, and ■ the cases you mention .are 
 very rare. I do not think any of the workmen in the 
 North -would have any complaint to make as to the 
 ventilation, but there are times when it is ou-tside the 
 power of the managers to do it. Say a man went to 
 work this mtorning and we co'uld prove that he was 
 affected by gas and bad air on that day, then it has 
 been classified as an accident ; but supposing it is the 
 outcome of two or three days, it has not been so 
 classified. 
 
 10092. Have you ever come across such cases ? — Yes. 
 Dr. Leigh made a post-mortem examination on a man 
 who died through it, and it was shown that he had 
 been working in the place more days than one, and 
 that took it out of the category of .accident. 
 
 10093. You think if it could be proved that his 
 ■death was due to the gassing it ought to be regarded 
 as due to his employment and compensation paid ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 10094. Have you cas&s of men prevented from work- 
 ing through sprained or stnained wrist ? — Yes. 
 
 10095. Is that due to a sudden jarring of the 'wrist ; 
 is it accidental, or does it come gradually by working 
 with a weak -wrist, as beat-hamd comes on gradually? 
 — You might have a strained wrist in the case of a man 
 who has been off work for some weeks, and the muscles 
 
 ■of his arm have lost their working se-t, as I would call 
 it. If you were in the north you might notice iminers 
 with worsted tied round their fingers and wrists to 
 ailay the pain of the s.prain when they take hold of 
 the pick-shafts. 
 
 10096. Are men prevented from workin-g by it ? — 
 'They struggle on in pain. 
 
 10097. T^d then they get better, do they?— Then 
 they get better. 
 
 10098. You have not mentioned it in your proof, njor 
 did Dr. Leigh, so I assume yonr society do not attach 
 great importance to that ? — We have always been paid 
 for sprains in Durham. If we could prove a sprain of 
 any kind whatever, the owners have admitted the claim ' 
 and paid. 
 
 10099. On the ground that it is due to .a definite 
 accident? — It is a benevolence we ha.ve benefited by. 
 There is a thing miaers have to work with called a 
 jumper, which Jars the wrist; a.nd if we could prove 
 that a man has jarred his wrist or in any way strained 
 hiinself our owners have honlonrably paid the, money. 
 
 10100. Does that custom prevail in other parts of 
 England? — J cannot say. (Mr. Souse.) The men are 
 
 usually in! a position to prove that they, have had a 
 sort of a jerk. 
 
 10101-2. (Professor Allhutt.) Is iJiis' jumper used in 
 the ironstone mines?— ^(Mri Wilson.) Yes; and in. the 
 coalmines, too; where they have not machine drilling ' 
 for shots they use the jumpers. They are things five 
 or six feetlong, .with a ibig ball .at the end. 
 
 10103.' And they are used also in the coalmines, are 
 they ?^Yes, except where they have drilling machines. - 
 
 10104. (Dr.' hegge.) In the cases -where you have got 
 compensation for .spuained wrist have you been able to 
 satisfy the court itha/t there has been inflammation? — 
 We never take them into court ; we have a committee. ■ 
 
 10105. You have been able to satisfy the committee, 
 have you, there have been signs of swelling?— We have 
 produced a doctor's certificate saying that a man'a , 
 wrist has been sprained from some jar or miss-stroke. 
 
 10106. Would you- be content, supposiag one 
 thought of scheduling it, to limit it to sprains . of 
 which the doctor could definitely say that there were 
 or bad (been definite signs of inflammatdon in the 
 wrist ? — Oare 'would have to be had to the, use of the 
 word sprain, beoaaise it might apply to other parts of 
 a man's body than his wrist. For instance, he might 
 sprain his side in lifting a stone, and if you were 
 to qualify the sprain by the swelling you might cut 
 out that class of case, which has, up to noiff, been 
 paid for. 
 
 10107. Would you like to see sprained or strained 
 wrist scheduled without any condition as to. obvious 
 physical signs? — ^Yes, if it could be proved. 
 
 10108. (Chairman.) I understand you do niot spe- 
 cially mind whether it is scheduled or not ? — No, not 
 so far as we are at present concerned, becauee we are 
 paid for them. In any case-, where a man says, and 
 prtxduces a doctor's certificate to say, that he has 
 sprained his wrist or any part of his body, if the 
 manager refuses to pay it comes before the. committee. 
 
 10109. Do you think -there are many cases 'Where 
 men have sprained their wrists in this way by con- 
 tinuous work ? — Yes. 
 
 10110. Which really are not accidents? — Yes, it is 
 n'ot an" accident as would be defined by a law court ; 
 but if you take a man who has been working in a soft 
 strata and by our process in the North he gets to "the 
 harder ooal, the hardness of the jar will afiect his 
 wrists and sprain them. It does not last for any con- 
 siderable length of time. 
 
 10111. How long would it last? — I should think, 
 never above three or four weeiks. Under the new Act, 
 of course, they will be paid for earlier, because of the 
 provision as to the 'week. 
 
 10112. (To Mr. Bouse.) You have heard Mr. Wil- 
 son's evidence, Mr. House. Have you anything which 
 you desire to add to it, or do you agree with all he has 
 said ? — I agree entirely with all he has said, and I do 
 not see that 'there is anything I can add, except that 
 to define in the schedule sprained wrist would mean 
 that other sprains would not be paid for. 
 
 10115. Do you ever have sprains of other parts of 
 the body that are not due to .accident ?■ — It is due to 
 accident in lifting a stone, for instance. 
 
 10114. But apparently a sprain or s'train of the wrist 
 arises from a continuous series of jars, and does not 
 happen at a giveii moment ; but .a sprain of the side is 
 a sudden occurrence, happening at a particular 
 moment of time, is it not '(—(Mr. Wilson.) Yes. 
 
 10115. Therefore it is an accident? — ^Yes. As Mr. 
 House suggests, if a man makes a, stroke of the pick 
 and misses, and it swings him round, it might strain, 
 him ; and I have known of a man straining his knee 
 ia that way. 
 
 10116: Those would be accidents, whereas vrrist 
 sprains would not be ? — If you scheduled strained 'wrist 
 or sprained wrist, would not the fact of that being de- 
 fined exclude all other kinds of sprains. 
 
 10117. No, they would be accidents ?— Then that 
 would meet the point. 
 
 10118. Have you known many CEtses of what used 
 to be called miner's phthisis, which is fibrosis. of the 
 lung, really due to the inhalation of coal dust ? — ^We ' 
 have had men troubled with that class of disease; but 
 that would be rather outside our technical knowledge. 
 It is a medical matter. But we see men who are 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 317 
 
 asthmatic, and troubled with their breathing organs, 
 ■which arises from the coal dust, we think. I have 
 many a time wondered as a miner how it was that more 
 men breathing and inhaling the small dust were not 
 afiected, and J have heard some say that it was a very , 
 healthy thing. TJhat kind of thing, of course, inay 
 arise from a man getting a sudden cold or chill, .to- 
 which a miner is liable. For instance, he is working 
 hard, and perspiring freely, and the putter does not 
 come in in time, and the miner then sits down, and as 
 he is always in a draught, he might get a chill. 
 
 10119. But that could hardly be proved, could it, to jf^ j. 
 
 arise from his employment? If taken into court it Wileon,-tii.v. 
 
 might be said his disease might just as easily have and Alder- 
 
 arisen from his sitting in a draught in his own house, man House. 
 
 I suppose ?^Every bit, but he is not sweating so much. 
 
 The men's hours are so short, and they work with great 
 -.intensity, and perspire very freely. When they get 
 
 their coals loose, and there is nothing else to work at, 
 
 they sit. The miner has to wait for the putter to take 
 i^ his. material away, and he sits there without a shirt on 
 
 sometimes, and gets a sudden chill. 
 
 26 Mar. 1907. 
 
 Mr. J. G. Mc Willie, m.b., c.m., d.p.h., called and examined. 
 
 10120. (Chairman.) Are you in practice at the pre- 
 sent time in IJull ? — lam. , , 
 
 10121. Have you had experience of men who are 
 working on ships among the grain cargoes? — Yes, I 
 have. 
 
 10122. Do you consider that they suffer from any 
 ailments owing to their employment ?— The only one I • 
 would suggest being added to the list is ordinary 
 l^roncbitisy caused, pi-obably by the dust, being inhaled. . 
 
 10123. Gould you say with any certainty in any in- 
 dividual case- that a man's- bronchitis was due to his 
 •employment ? — I have had several cases that are prob- 
 ably due to his employment, but the difficulty is to 
 prove that the dust is the direct cause. ' 
 
 ■ 10124; Do you notice any distinctive symptoms in 
 those cases of bronchitis to differentiate them from 
 bronchitis in other people ? — The only difference is 
 that, the, dust particles are .found in the expectoration. 
 
 10125. Is that the only difference ? — ^Yes ; the syftip- 
 toms are practically, identical with those of a case of 
 ordinary bronchitis. 
 
 10126; Do you find any other ailments from which 
 the men suffer throvigh working in pliosphate cargoes 
 or. ore cargoes ?^-I have only had one ore ship to 
 attend. They come very seldom to Hull, and I have 
 practically . no experience with regard to it. 
 
 10127. Or phosphates ? — No, very seldom. 
 
 10128. , And gr^in cargoes only produce bronchitis, 
 you think? — That is my experience. 
 
 ■ 10129. You have not come across any oases cf 
 phthisis ? — ^Not directly caused by dusty grain. 
 
 10130. Have you come across any cases of itch ?— I 
 had one case that I thought had been caused by the 
 man working amongst the grain. 
 
 10131. How long have you been at Hull ?— Six years. 
 
 10132. Does your practice lie a good deal amongst 
 the dock workers ? — Yes. 
 
 10133. So that if this was at all prevalent amongst 
 them you would hear of it? — All my patients are 
 private patients, and I do not come in contact much 
 with the commoner dock labourer. I deal more with 
 the better class of dockers, and I have had only one 
 case of itch that I could attribute to discharging grain 
 cargo. 
 
 . 10134. How do you .think that arose ; what is the 
 cause of it, do you think ?— Probably from the dust 
 from the barley. 
 
 10135. Organic dust, or inorganic dust ?— Inorganic 
 dust, I should say. 
 
 10136. Was the man incapacitated from working ?— 
 Only about four days. 
 
 10137. {Professor Allhutt.) By itch, are you speak- 
 ing, technically or of an ordinary skin eruption ?— It 
 is the ordinary scabies. 
 
 10138. How could that arise from handling grain ?— 
 i think it was probably brought on by the irritation. 
 
 10139. -Do you, assume that the, itch insect is to be 
 found in 'the grain?— I think the dust caused the irri- 
 tation between the webs of the fingers and, then tfie. 
 itch-mite lodged there afterwards. 
 
 10140. As regards ' bronchitis, might not you have 
 ■two kinds— an acute attack brought on by exposure to 
 oyerwhelming dust and perhaps brought, on time alter 
 time and 'so becoming chronic ?— Yes, that is so. 
 
 10141. Is that the kind to which you are referring? 
 — ^Yes, that is so. 
 
 '■ 10142. Do you find that the conditions Of the men's 
 
 employment are such that the bronchitis does become 
 chronic; it is not just , a- single attack?— rNo, one 
 attack predisposes to a second attack. 
 
 10143. It does not end in what you call fibroid 
 phthisis ? — No ; I have had no experience of phthisis 
 among men working amongst grain cargoes at all. 
 
 ' ■ 10144.- In ■ speaking of phthisis, do you include 
 fibroid and tuberculous phthisis? — Yes. 
 
 10145. Is it accompanied with emphysema, P — Yer.v 
 often with dilatation of the heart ; sometimes with 
 emphysema,, but not much. 
 
 10146. And dilatation of the bronchial tubes? — 'Yes. 
 
 10147. Do you consider that it is so frequent in com- 
 parison with , cases amongst other working, men you 
 attend, that it is characteristic of the employment ? — 
 It is. ■ ' ' _ " '. 
 
 10148. Can you give us any figures at all?-^I have 
 had about 20 or 30 cases of bronchitis which I ha-.o 
 attributed to the work. 
 
 10149. Is that far above the number you would think 
 should prevail in non-dusty employments ? — Yes. 
 
 ,10150. Is. the grain dust a silicious dust ? — Yes, I 
 should think it is. 
 
 -10151. It is inorganic, at any, rate ?^Yes, it is. 
 
 10152. It is dirt?— Yes, it is. 
 
 10153. Is there no obvious way of preventing the 
 bronchitis ? — The Only way 1 suggest would be for the 
 men to wear respirators. Ihey do very often wear a 
 black cloth over their face. 
 
 10154. Does that in your opinion interfere with their 
 activity ? — No, I do not think so. 
 
 10155. And you see no reason as a medical man why 
 they should not wear some kind of muzzle? — I do not 
 see any reason. In a very dusty cargo I should think 
 80 or 90 per cent, of them wear them at present ; they 
 are not any specially-designed respirator, btit a 
 closely-woven muslin handkerchief tied round the 
 mouth and nose. 
 
 10156. Does a man who has begun to wear a thing 
 of that kind discard it, or go on with it ?- He goes on 
 wearing it. 
 
 10157. He is the more careful kind of workman, I 
 suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 10158. In your opinion does that go a long way to- 
 wards preventing bronchitis ? — Yes, it does. 
 
 10159. (Dr. Legge.) Are the men permanently em- 
 ployed in this dusty work?— They generally get en- 
 gaged during the discharge of each ship. 
 
 10160. Day after day?— Yes, day after day while the 
 ship is being discharged ; but they are not what you 
 would call regular workmen. One man would be en- 
 gaged in discharging a certain ship, and then he 
 might be without employment until another ship with 
 a similar cargo came along. 
 
 10161 Have you been able to form any idea as to 
 how long they can work upon this particular work 
 before the chronic bronchitis develops ?— Some of them 
 for years, I should say, without showing it at all. It 
 is only in occasional cases that it is found. 
 
 10162 Amongst the 20 or 30 men you say you have 
 treated, have there been any permanently incapaci- 
 tated or who have died because of it ?— I have fiacl no 
 deaths, but I have ha(J several cases of recurring 
 attacks One patient and his son have both had it 
 three times, and the father has had .very distinct acute 
 attacks the last three winters, incapacitating him from 
 work about a fortnight each time. 
 
 Mr. J. G. 
 
 Mc Willie, 
 
 M.B., CM., 
 D.P.H. 
 
318 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE; 
 
 THIRTY-FIFTH DAY. 
 
 Monday, 15th April 1907. 
 
 PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samttel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 Mr. HeNBT CXTNTNGHAJtE, C.B. 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott {Seeretaryy. 
 
 Mr. George Alexandee, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. G. 10163. (Chairman.) Are you a bottle manufacturer? 
 
 Alexander. — Yes. 
 
 15 April 1907 10164. Are your works at Leeds and Blaydon-on- 
 Tyne? — Yes, and at Southwick, Sunderland. 
 
 10165. The Committee have had some evidence to 
 the effect that glass bottle workers, particularly the 
 finishers, suffer to an inordinate degree from cataract 
 and other diseases of the eye. What do you say as to 
 that ? — The finishers sit nearer to the furnace than the 
 others do. 
 
 10166. Is it your experience that many of your work- 
 people engaged in those processes have suffered from 
 those ailments ? — No, it is rather the contrary. I have 
 certain, figures here of the number of men we have in 
 our employ, the number of years they have been in 
 our employ, and the cases of cataract arising from the 
 nature of their work, and the percentage is almost nil. 
 
 10167. Will you give the figures to the Committee ? — 
 To put it briefly, at our three works we have .250 men 
 actually employed in the process of making bottles — 
 that is, either finishing, blowing, or gathering. That 
 is irrespective of apprentices, boys, and outwork 
 hands. There are three journeymen employed in the 
 process of making bottles, and to each of the three 
 there are six or seven other people attached who are 
 not absolutely considered glass bottle makers because 
 they do not come into contact with the furnaces. From 
 careful statistics we have taken from each of the works, 
 we find that they suffer from no disease peouliax to 
 the trade, nor are they incapacitated from work from 
 any cause derived from the nature of their work ; they 
 also appear to be able to continue their work to a good 
 age. Our manager at Blaydon, who has been 25 years 
 in our service, gives the following details : — The maxi- 
 mum age of the men at present in our employ is : 
 Finishers, 60 years of age ; blowers, 62 ; gatherers, 
 57 ; the average being 42, 38, and 34 years respectively. 
 Not one of the above wear glasses at their work, nine 
 of them do so for reading purposes, their ages being 
 62, 59, 57, 57, 56, 54, 53, 52, and 47 respectively. 
 There are 80 men at those works, and, with the excep- 
 tion of two of them, the whole of the above were 
 apprenticed at our works, have worked there all their 
 lives at the trade, a number of them starting as 
 early as 8, 9, 10, and 11 yeais of age. That was before 
 vro were not allowed to employ them under the age of 
 14. You see that evidence is rather strong, because 
 there is not a single case where they wear glasses at 
 their work, although they have been at the work from 
 their early boyhood up to the age of 60. Our 
 manager adds that during the whole of his ex- 
 perience be does not know of a single case where 
 a man has left work through cataract. Our under- 
 manager, who has had 48 years' experience, corro- 
 borated this, and has only known of six men who 
 have suffered from cataract. This main has not been 
 with us for 48 years ; he is a glassworker himself, and 
 has worked his way up to under-manager. He says he 
 knows of six cases, but in no single case could the 
 disease be traced to the nature of the employment. 
 Of course that is only his opinion. Then our manager 
 at Southwick, Sunderland, who has been with us 22 
 years, states that out of 80 men the average age of re- 
 tirement has been 56 and 60 years of age. He adds 
 that during this time he can only trace four cases of 
 
 cataract, all such cases having 'been treated at the 
 Sunderland and North Durham Eye Infirmary. Wo- 
 subscribe to that infirmary, and the men are treated 
 on somewhat special terms. 
 
 10168. Do you subscribe to other hospitals there ? — 
 Yes ; to all the infirmaries we do. 
 
 10169. Why do you specially subscribe to the Eye> 
 Hospital? — All the large works support all the diffe- 
 rent infirmaries. There are only two. There is prac- 
 tically the infirmary and the Sunderland and North. 
 Durham Eye Infirmary. 
 
 10170. With regard to ailments other than cataract^ 
 have you had any experience? — Yes. 
 
 10171. Have you any statistics with regard to them ? 
 — No. I have a general remark that one manager as- 
 to consumption expresses the opinion that there is no- 
 trade more free from that disease. I personally have- 
 been at the works for 18 years, and have always found 
 that, if anything, the process of blowing is rather more- 
 conducive to good health as regards the lungs and 
 tends to strengthen -them than, otherwise. I know of 
 a man we had called Hodges, who served his appren- 
 ticeship with us, who was a particularly good servant, 
 and who had consumption. He was a blower, and I 
 consulted our doctor a-bout him, who advised that he 
 should be advanced from the stage of blowing to that, 
 of finishing, in order to relieve the strain upon his 
 lungs. That was done, but he became much worse, 
 and we put him back to blowing again, and he got 
 very much better, which is rather evidence that the 
 blowing tends to somewhat strengthen the organs. 
 
 10172. Have you any statistics from your managers 
 of cases of other eye diseases apart from cataract?—. 
 No ; because it is rather covered by the statement that 
 they have only known of the few oases wihere men left 
 work through a defect of the eye. 
 
 10173. The Committee had evidence from a manufac 
 turer in Yorkshire, who said that there is some differ-, 
 ence in the methods between that part of the country 
 and other districts, in that inside the furnaces in their 
 glass works there is some kind of partition which 
 Shades the eyes of the workers from the glaa-e. Is that 
 the case ? — I do not think so. I am rather in a posi- 
 tion to give an opinion upon that, because we have 
 works in both districts ; we have works at Hunslet 
 and we have works in the north of England. All the 
 furnaces are constructed on similar lines with the ex- 
 ception that some of the Yorkshire manufacturers have 
 what they term a bridge, but it doeS not affect the 
 glare at all, because it is beneath the level of the glass 
 itself. It is called a bridge, and is a kind of parti- 
 tion which goes across and has loopholes for the metal 
 to pour through, the object being to get a finer and 
 better quality of metal ; ' but it cannot possibly vary 
 the glare of the glass because the metal flows to the 
 level of the top of the bridge. 
 
 10174. Then is it your opinion there is no difference 
 in the methods which would be more likely to make 
 eye affections more prevalent in one pait of the 
 country than the other? — No. I think anything that 
 might in the olden days have affected the eyesight is 
 considerably reduced, because the furnaces used to be 
 very much smaller, and they varied from one glare to 
 another glare. Now they are continuous. In glass 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 319 
 
 :iuTnac8s the metal is kept to a level height and is 
 always at the same temperature and glare ; so once the 
 onen have acclimatised their eyes to that there is not 
 the difficulty that there used to be. 
 ' ■ 10175. Is that the practice in all the works now, or 
 •are there old-fashioned works still in existence? — There 
 are a few old-fasliioned works still in existence. 
 
 10176. (Br. let/ge.) Is Blaydon near Seaham Har- 
 bour?— Yes. 
 
 10177. Have you works at Seaham Harbour ? — No, 
 Messrs. R. Candlish and Sons have. We are divided 
 into districts ; we come under the North of England 
 district — that is, the Newcastle, Sunderland and Sea- 
 ham Harbour district — and Mr. Candlish, who is 
 Chairman of the North of England District, was asked 
 to give evidence, but he is abroad, though I think he 
 wishes to give evidence when he returns. 
 
 10178. Then you are part of the same combine, shall 
 I call it ? — No. The men form the districts ; there are 
 wages and conditions peculiar to a district, and we 
 combined ourselves with regard to wages, and so on. 
 
 10179.^ Do you know the Seaham Harbour Works ?— 
 Tes. 
 
 10180. Is there any material difference there in the 
 finishing department to the conditions in other dis- 
 tricts, do you think? — No, nothing at all. 
 
 10181. Do you know Dr. Robinson, and do you know 
 of his statement with regard to bottle-finishers' catar- 
 act? — Is he a North-countryman? 
 
 10182. He is in practice at Sunderland ? — I have not 
 heard his evidence, but I believe he has made a study 
 of the question, and I believe he has stated that the 
 form of cataract that bottle hands are liable to get is 
 a different form of cataract to any other cataract. 
 
 10183. It is different to the ordinary senile cataract ? 
 — That may be, but our point is that the percentage 
 is so infinitesimally small that it cannot be attributed 
 to the men's work ; we say they would have cataract 
 •whatever their employment may have been. It might 
 take a different form through the work, but the work 
 is not the cause of the cataract itself. 
 
 10184. (Chairman.) Are there any other bottle works 
 at Hunslet besides yours ?— Yes, there is a firm of W. 
 Brook and Son. 
 
 10185. On looking through the list of superannuated 
 members of the trade from December, 1897, to Decem- 
 ber, 1905, I find that in recent years, since 1901, Huns- 
 
 ^let and Blaydon seem to have been remarkably free 
 from eye diseases, and that it is Castleford, Conis- 
 borough, and other places where they seem to be more 
 numerous, but I notice that at Blaydon in 1904 there 
 was a gatherer, aged 60, with senile cataract in the left 
 
 ; eye, and removal of the lenses from the right eye, who 
 
 ,came on the funds of the trade union?— Yes. 
 
 ' 10186. And in 1904, in November, there was another 
 bottle-,maker at Hunslet, aged 66, with senile cataract 
 in both eyes, and another man in 1904, aged M, a 
 
 bottle-maker of Hunslet, with partial paresis of the 
 right arm and much wasting of the muscles, with some 
 opacity of the lenses, notably the right. The othex 
 cases at Hunslet are mostly those of constitutional dis- 
 eases, but there were three men in 1904 who came on 
 the funds of the union, you see?— Is that a list of the 
 Yorkshire cases ? 
 
 10187. No, it includes the whole country ?— Have you 
 the figures with regard to the Southwick Bottle Works, 
 Sunderland ? 
 
 10188. No. The list gives Blaydon in 1904, and there 
 there was one gatherer who suffered from senile catar- 
 act in the left eye, and removal of the lenses from the 
 right eye, which apparently was the only case from 
 Blaydon in recent years?— That has rather been oui 
 point ; we maintain that the percentage is very small. 
 
 10189. How many men have you employed at Blay- 
 don ?— The number varies, but the full complement of 
 men, bottle finishers, blowers, and gatherers is 80 at 
 each of our works. 
 
 10190. I find that at Hunslet in 1899, that is some 
 years ago, there was a man who came on the super- 
 annuation fund suffering from optic neuritis, and 
 another in 1900 suffering from traumatic cataract and 
 lose of vision. Are there a very large number of bottle 
 works at Castleford ?— Yes, that is one of the largest 
 centres. 
 
 10191. Are the methods employed there the same as 
 are employed at other places ? — They may differ. They 
 make coloured glasses there more than we do in the 
 North of England, such as amber and vegetable green 
 glasses, which, are made in smaller furnaces, and we 
 admit there may be more cause for affecting the eye 
 from furnaces which vary the glare than from those 
 which do not. Have you had any evidence on the hours 
 or length of time our men work, because allowance is 
 made for all these things in our trade. The men only 
 work five days in the week. 
 
 10192. Why ? Because it is regarded as trying work ? 
 —It is hard work while they are at it. The nominal 
 hours are 10 hours a day, but they have an hour and 
 a half off for meals, so they work 8g hours for five days 
 in the week. The men's association of Yorkshire re- 
 commended the men wearing glasses at their work 
 some short time ago ; it was put to the vote amongst 
 our men at Hunslet, but they objected to it ; they will 
 not wear them. 
 
 10193. They find the perspiration deposits on the 
 glasses, do they not ? — Yes, that is one reason. 
 
 10194. (Dr. Legge.) Do you have any blue screen 
 before the hole to look into the furnace? — ^Yes, for 
 the men who fill on the metal at the back, but they 
 never use it. A sort of fan thing is kept there for the 
 
 ^manager walking round to look into the furnace. Of 
 course, the glare is greater where the metal is filled on 
 than it is where the men are working, because there 
 the hole is only 6 inches by 4 iuches ; that is all they 
 look into, whereas the other is a huge hole. 
 
 Mr. C.i 
 Alexander. 
 
 15 April 1907 
 
 Mr. Dexis Mooee, called and examined. 
 
 10195. (Chairman.) Are you a gla^e bottle manufac- 
 turer ?■ — Yes. 
 
 10196. Are your works at Woolwich ?— Yes. 
 
 ■ 10197. About how many men do you employ ?— We 
 employ about 250 blowers, and about 450 altogether. 
 
 10198. About how many of them are finishers?— In 
 our case all the blowers are finishers. 
 
 10199 Do not you divide the processes ?— No we 
 have giVen up the English system of work; we have 
 no English glaesblowers in our factory— they are all 
 foireigners. 
 
 10200 The Committee have had evidence from one 
 or two quarters to the effect that cataract and other 
 «ye diseases are unduly prevalent amongst bottle 
 finishers. Have you had any experience as to tha,t i-— i 
 cannot say that I have had a very large experience, 
 and I only know of one case of a man in my employ 
 havmg cataract, and he was not incapacitated from 
 Tvork by it until well on to 70 years of a^ ^e jv^^^ 
 inan who had led an awfully bad life. Whether that 
 Tvould induce the cataraot or not I do not know, but 
 that is the only case I have known. 
 
 10201. Have you by chance seen the table of caeee of 
 men who have ^me on the superannuation fund of the 
 
 Bottle Workers' Union, and the reasons why they came Mr. D.Moore. 
 upon that fund ? — ^No, I have not. 
 
 10202. It shows a most remarkable proportion of men 
 suffering from cataract; in fact, out of a total of 114 
 men who in eight years oame upon the fund of that 
 trade imion, 33 were suffering from cataract, eight 
 from defective eyesight, and seven others from other 
 eye diseases, making a total of 43 out of 114? — The 
 number of men who come on the superannuation fund 
 would probably be a small percentage of the number of 
 men employed, and the number of cataract cases is 
 only a third of that number. But I should say, from 
 my experience of these workmen, that their cataract 
 does not come from their work. I think it might be 
 aggravated if they were prone to it, but I fancy medical 
 men could give the clearest evidence upon that. I 
 should question whether it was possible to induce 
 cataract from heat. 
 
 10203. From your long experience of the trade do 
 you say it is never currently spoken of as a disease 
 belonging to the trade? — No. I have been discussing 
 lately with a large number of men from all over the 
 Continent this very point, and they say that in Ger- 
 many, where the industry is very much larger than it 
 is here, cases of cataract are very seldom heard of. 
 
320 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. D.Moore. 10204. Is it the case that in some glass furnacee 
 
 ... ..ij — , there is a kind of appliance inside the furnace which 
 
 15 April 1907 helps to shade the workers from the glare ? — They can 
 
 "^ fix up a coloured screen in front of the place where 
 
 they work, but they are mostly too oareleee to do that. 
 
 In our factory I dare say half the men do it. 
 
 10205. Apart from that, ie there not something in 
 the construction of the furnace— something called a 
 bridge — which helps to eav© the eyes ? — Yes, there is a 
 bridge, but that would not assist ; there must be sufR 
 cient heat to keep the metal in a fluid condition. 
 
 10206. Is there no difference in the construction of 
 furnaces in one part of England from another whieli 
 would account for a higher proportion of eye diseases in 
 one part from the other; are they all very rnuch th'i 
 same ?■ — They are all very much the same. There is a 
 difference in the English system of work. The finisher 
 hianself is much more distressed by constantly looKing 
 into the furnace than any other member of the gang 
 working under him. 
 
 10207. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do you use a Continental 
 shape of furnace ? — We all use the same, both on the 
 Continent and in England ; there is no difference in 
 the furnace. 
 
 10208. So that the immunity of your men from 
 cataract could not be ascribed to a difference in the 
 construction of your furnaces ? — No. 
 
 10209. To what do you attribute the idea amongst 
 tlie men with regard to cataract? — I think it is because 
 the Trades Union are trying to got some benefit out of 
 the proposed extension of the Workmen's Compensa- 
 tion Act. 
 
 10210. But the figures cannot be all imaginary, can 
 they? — I think they should be all of them very care- 
 fully checked. I am astonished to hear that thejr 
 allege that there is a great amount of- cataract amongst 
 them. The eye would naturally be one of the first 
 organs to be assailed in our industry, but strange to 
 say, we l^ave old men of fifty or sixty whose eyesight is 
 much better than mine, and I Tiave never done any- 
 thing but use a pen. 
 
 1.0211. (Chairman.) Are they finishers ?— Yes, but 
 in our form of the industry the men who finish do 'the 
 whole work, and make the bottle from beginning io 
 end. 
 
 10212. Is there anything else yon wish to lay before- 
 the Committee ? — No, I think I have included every- 
 thing in the precis I sent the Committee, and unless 
 you wish to ask me anything I have nothing to add. 1 
 
 10213. It is only the question of eye diseases which 
 the Committee are investigating in connection with 
 bottle workers ? — In that coiinection I think you should 
 rely mpre on medical evidence.; at any rate, my experi- 
 ence proves that the men's eyes do not suffer very 
 largely, or, in fact, that they suffer very little indeed, 
 and it is possible for them to adopt means to shield 
 their eyes ; they can use coloured spectacles or glass 
 screens in front of their work, and in our case they-do 
 so with regard to half of them. 
 
 10214. Why? — On the ground that they fear it might 
 try their eyes. Some men have weak eyes ; some be- 
 lieve that the work injures their eyes, and they tak& 
 steps to protect them ; while, on the other hand, many 
 men do not believe the work has any effect on them, 
 and they do not take those steps. 
 
 Mr. B. H. NoSGATE, m.e.c.s., I.E.C.P., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. B. II. 
 Norgate, 
 M.E.C.S , 
 L.B.C.P. 
 
 10215. (Chairm^an.) Are you the Medical Officer of 
 Stapleton Workhouse, at Bristol ? — Yes. 
 
 10216. Are you, in general praistice, also in Bristol? 
 ■^^No, I am resident officer foT the workhouse; 
 
 I am not allowed to do anything outside; Previously 
 I was surgeon to the Bristol Foresters' Society, and 
 medical officer to the Kent and Worcester Asylums. 
 
 10217. Have you been at considerable trouble to 
 review the cases of bootmakers who have entered the 
 workhouse with which you are connected ?, — Yes. 
 
 10218. There have been 257 of such persons under 
 your care, I believe?^- Yes. 
 
 10219. Of whom 224 were admitted on account of 
 sickness ? — Yes. 
 
 10220. The workmen who enter the v/orkhouse are- 
 of course not an average of the men employed in the 
 trade, b^it they are below the average ? — Yes. . 
 
 10221. Do you think that they come from specially 
 unhealthy factories? — The greater number of them, or 
 they are men who, having originally been in better fac- 
 tories, owing to illness or having got into trouble, 
 have had to go into second-rate factories, and many of 
 them are men who have done work in their own homes. 
 
 10222. You speak in your precis of a number of dis- 
 eases, such as insanity, eye diseases, cancer, and so on, 
 but the purpose of this Committee is' to investigate 
 only diseases which are attributable to the employment 
 in which the men are engaged. What diseases do you 
 consider are directly attributable to working in the 
 boot trade? — Phthisis, cancer, certain forms of eye 
 trouble, certain forms of paralysis, certain skin dis- 
 eases, bronchitis, and asthma, and insanity. Those 
 are the most important. 
 
 10223. Have you any reason to think that more boot- 
 makers are insane than other people belonging to the 
 same classes living in the same districts ?— 1 should 
 say so. I get more cases, according to my figures. I 
 have an average of 23 cases of insanity -in the course 
 of the years I have given, and that is more than the 
 average in other occupations. 
 
 10224. But might not that perhaps be because there 
 are more bootmakers dealt with than people employed 
 in other occupations ? — No, I should say not ; we have 
 agreat many dock labourers and 'casual labourers i'n 
 Bristol as well. 
 
 10225. In -what way do you think the manufacture Of 
 boots gives rise to insanity, any.,more than the manu- 
 facture, say, of furniture, or hats, 'or coats? — I should 
 
 think it is due to the modern machinery, which is 
 now used where there is such a terrible strain on a 
 man, and at the same time with certain of the instru- 
 ments there are sudden jars on the system ; I think 
 those two things- combined produce such wear and 
 tear on the people's minds that it has a tendency 
 to cause insanity. Then there are also the sedentary 
 forms of occupation, with nothing to take the mind 
 away from the surroundings, and in those cases the 
 workers have a tendency to melancholia. 
 
 10226. In how long a period did you have the 23 cases 
 of insanity amongst bootmakers to which you refer? — 
 In 8 or 9 years. 
 
 10227. How* many bootmakers are there in Bristol? 
 — I believe there are somewhere between 5,000 and 
 6,000, but niy Union will only represent half the cases 
 because there is another Union Hospital as well, so 
 that you can multiply my figures by two in order to 
 get an idea of the number. ' 
 
 10228. Or out of 2,500 bootmakers you have an 
 average of about 3 who are insane ? — ^Yes, and at the 
 Asylum they have figures pointing to there being a 
 large number. I give in my precis the number of cases 
 admitted to the Asylum, 7 in 1904, 7 in 1906, and 5 in 
 1906, an average of about 6 a year. 
 
 10229. In addition to an average of about 3 a year at 
 your workhouse, and 3 at the other workhouse ?— Yes. 
 
 10230. That is to say, 12 a year. out of 5,000 people 
 employed in the industry ?^-Yes. 
 
 10231. Do you think it would be possible to require 
 that compensation should be paid to those men on the 
 ground that their insanity was due to their employr 
 ment ? — No. 
 
 10232. Similarly with regard to cancer, the connec- 
 tion between^cancer and shoe-making is inferential,, is 
 it not ; . you merely say that there is a rather higher 
 proportion of cases amongst shoemakers, bu1j the 
 numbers are so exceedingly small in proportion to the 
 total number engaged, that it can hardly be said that 
 cancer is a trade disease amongst shoemakers, can it? 
 
 —No. , • . ; 
 
 10233. Also with regard to eye troubles, what do 
 you say? — I noticed when I went over a very large 
 manufd,ctory the other day that a great many of the 
 men were wearing spectacles; which was quite excep- 
 tional. You could, see more people in. that particular 
 f ajitory with . .spectacles . or , eyeglasses, on - than you 
 would ever see under ordinary circumstances, and I 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 321 
 
 attribute that to the eye strain, and also to a certain 
 extent to the light. 
 
 10234. Do you ever find a man entering the work- 
 house because his eyesight has failed him through his 
 occupation ? — Yes. 
 
 10235. How many cases of that kind have you 
 amongst bootmakers? — I have given you in my precis 
 the history of 9, and there are more one would have to 
 add because the eye troubles are part and parcel of the 
 symptoms of paralysis which these men suffer from. 
 
 10236. With regard toi eye disease, cancer, insanity 
 or paralysis, in any igiven case could you say without 
 knowing the man's histoiy, " TlhiB man mnsit be a boot- 
 maker because he is suffering from this disease" ? — No, 
 I should not like to say that. 
 
 10237. But if you knew he was a bootmaker could 
 you say in any given case : " This man is suffering 
 from this disease because he has been abootmaker " ? 
 — ^Yes, I should say so ; I take that from the cases of 
 ataxia in which the eye symptoms are very marked. 
 
 10238. But would not you find other men employed 
 in other trades and persons who are not working men 
 preseaiting exactly tiie same symptoms?^ — ^Not to the 
 same extent. 
 
 10239. But if you took a given case? There might 
 not be so many in the total? — There would not be so 
 many. We have had quite a. run of cases, and thiat is 
 the reason why I speoially mention it. We get a run 
 of a particular case, and then perhaips we do not get 
 any more for a time ; but I have seen many cases 
 recently in wihich the eye symptoms have been more 
 prominent. 
 
 10240. With reference to diseases of the respiratory 
 system, you had 36 cases of phthisis admitted, I under- 
 stand ?— Yes. 
 
 10241. Do you ever get cases of fibroid phthisis ? — 
 Not necesBarily amongst bootmakers. I do not know 
 of a case specially amongst them. Those cases seem to 
 have been cases which have come in so far advanced 
 that the whole lung has broken down very rapidly, 
 and therefore the disease has been of very rapid ter- 
 mination, and I am unfortunately in the position that 
 now the sanatoria have started I get the more ad- 
 vanced cases. I do not get them at the earlier stages. 
 
 10242. The phthisis then is indistinguishable, is it, 
 from the phthisis which exists amongst the rest of the 
 population?^ — I should say it is not distinguishable. 
 
 10243. (Mr. Cunynghame.) I suppose a trade like 
 bootmaking would be a trade to which rather the 
 weaker class of the children of the poor would be put ? 
 T-Yes, I shotild think so. 
 
 10244. If a man has several children in a poor home 
 he would put out the strongest to, say, probably dock 
 labouring ? — Yes. 
 
 10245. And to the weaker ones he would say, |'You 
 must take to shoemaking, because you will be sitting 
 at it, and there will not be a call upon you for the 
 same amount of manual labour " T — Quite so. 
 
 ^ 10246. Therefore one would expect in suoh a popula- 
 tion to find the mem of the weakest physique amongst 
 the bootmakers, I suppose? — ^Yes, but against that I 
 might say in the large factory I visited I was surprised 
 to see the fine class of men I found there ; whether it 
 is exceptional to the boot factories of Bristol or not I 
 cannot say. Undoubtedly the generality of boot- 
 makers one sees coming out of the factories in Bristol 
 are men of small physique. 
 
 10247. If they are men of poor physique or poorer 
 physique than others, one would rather expect to find 
 a greater proportion of all diseases amongst them, 
 would one not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10248. So that it strikes me, looking through your 
 list, even though there may be found amongst boot- 
 makers a larger percentage all along the line of various 
 diseases without any very marked or striking excess in 
 any particular item, that would be rather due to the 
 class of person going into the boot trade than to the 
 trade itself, would it not? — ^Yes, I quite agree with 
 you. 
 
 10249. To put it in another way, suppose people 
 instead of wearing leather boots were to wear wooden 
 shoes, and they made sabots, have you any reason to 
 think if the making of sabots was substituted for the 
 making of boots there would be very much difEerence in 
 the figures you have given us? — ^I sihould not like to 
 say, having regard to the amount of dust whether 
 there would be the same amount of disease or not. 
 
 419 
 
 10250. You do not expect to find, would you, if ., „ 
 they took to making sabots that the whole of your ^:- ^- S. 
 hgures would be very much better ?— No, I do not think -'^°'"?«<''. 
 1 would. M.R.C.S,, 
 
 10251. And if I were to substitute furniture making '—^' 
 you would not expect to find them much better, would ^^ ^Pi'il 1907 
 
 you^— iSo, we find many cases of phthisis amongst 
 
 men who make furniture. 
 
 10252. So that really the examinations you have 
 made produce rather a negative than a positive result, 
 do they not? — Yes. 
 
 ,,1^253. (Dr. Legge.) Have you noticed any disease of 
 the skin amongist any of the boot-makers you have had 
 to deal with ?— Yes ; some years ago I had a series of 
 cases of a peculiar skin rash affecting the fingers and 
 the arms, and I had some difiiculty at the time in de- 
 ciding what it was. It looked like an ordinary itch 
 first of all, but it got worse instead of better, and in 
 talking to the men I found out that they had been 
 using a stuff called chrysoidine. This stuff had been 
 used for some little time, and they had got sores on 
 thejr fingers, which seemed to have brought on a 
 violent irritation, in some cases extending right up the 
 arms. I had four or five of those cases one after the 
 other, and then one of the members of the Board of 
 Guardians— a Mr. Shepherd, who is interested in the 
 boot trade— said, " I wonder if they have been using 
 that stuff calM chrysoidine," which he said was a very 
 dangerous thing for the hands. The outbreak almost 
 disappeared, but I saw one case about a year ago, and 
 I have not seen any since. I have gone into the subject 
 of chrysoidine, and have mado some experiments with 
 regard to. it. When I was at a factory the other day I 
 spoke to the foreman, and he told nie it was not the 
 chrysoidine which was dangerous, but the stuff which 
 was mixed with it, and I found that oxalic acid, and 
 I believe chromic acid and picric acid, was mixod with 
 it The foreman at the factory took some of the chry- 
 soidine and put it on his tongue, and said it was not 
 more dangerous than that, but some of the things they 
 mixed with it caused the danger. 
 
 10254. (Dr. Legge.) What is chrysoidine chemically?" 
 — It was introduced in 1876, and discovered by Witt. 
 It is a hydro-chlorate of diamidoazobenzene. 
 
 10255. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is it a vaseline?— It is a^ 
 coal tar dye. It is C^ H3 H : NC^ H, (NH^)^ HC,, ob- 
 tained by combining diazobsnzene with m-phenylene 
 diamine. I made several experiments with it, and you 
 can produce yery beautiful colours with it. 
 
 10256. Did you find out whether it was irritating ? 
 — I tried some, and it undoubtedly irritated my fingers-.. 
 
 10257. It was not the pure chrysoidine which caused " 
 it ? — ^No ; it was mixed with oxalic acid. 
 
 10258. (Chairman.) Do you find that the pure chry- ^ 
 soidine produces any ill effects ?— No, none at all. 
 
 10259. (Dr. Legge.) Are you aware that oxaUc acid' 
 is used on a large scale in dye works, and does not 
 cause any symptoms ? — No, I did not know that ; but 
 it takes the skin off the fingers. 
 
 10260. Supposing you had seen the conditions, an<iJ 
 knew the history of the men suffering from the effects, 
 would you have any difficulty at all in attributing them 
 tO' their work ? — If I saw a similar case I should know 
 it again. 
 
 10261. Do you draw a distinction between illness, 
 caused in this way and illness resulting, say, from 
 cancer as regards the question of compensation? — Yes, 
 I should in this case. I think this is a case in which, , 
 if they are allowed to put other things with it which 
 are of a dangerous character, a person should be com- 
 pensated. 
 
 10262. How long does incapacity from the use of it 
 last ? — It varies from one to three months. I had one- 
 very bad arm in which the glands were very bad indeed, 
 and I made several incisions. 
 
 10263. But, with the exception of one case last year, 
 you have not seen any lately ? — No ; I saw several five 
 or six years ago. 
 
 10264. (Chairman.) Did the foreman you refer to say 
 he had had any cases recently? — ^No. He said he had 
 heard of it, and I have seen men in a shoe-maker's 
 shop who could tell m© the factoriijs where five or six 
 years ago they had had cases of it. 
 
 10265. (Dr. Legge.) And where the use of it had been 
 given up ? — ^Where it had been given up for that reason 
 — because of the intensely irritating effect on the skin. 
 
 2 S 
 
322 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:. 
 
 Mr. R. B. 
 
 Norga/c. 
 
 M.E.C.S., 
 
 L.E.C.r. 
 
 15 April 190" 
 
 10266. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Are 
 clirysoidine now ? — Yes. 
 
 they using pure 
 
 10267. Had the chrysoidine mixed with the oxalic 
 acid a ■spe'cial name ? — I do not know whether it was 
 called cJiTyfoidine or not. I did not discover it was 
 called chrysoidene until the other day, when I went 
 into it with an analytical chemist. . The picric acid 
 
 which is ussd, I believe, gives you the most beautiful 
 dye of all. 
 
 10268. Is that dangerous ?— Yes, that is dangerous 
 too. 
 
 10269-71. (Br, Legge.) It is handled in very large 
 quantities, ib it not? — Yes, but you would not like to 
 get it into a sorp place. 
 
 THIRTY-SIXTH DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, IQt/i April 1907. 
 
 Mr. HeNBT CtTNYXGHAME, C.B. 
 
 Professor Cliffobd Ailbtjit, f.b.s. 
 
 PEESENT : 
 
 Mr. Hbebeei Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legcje, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Fbank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. William Hancock, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. W. (Witness.) Before we proceed will you allow me to 
 
 Hancock, hand in this letter from, an eminent doctor of Newcastle, 
 
 which was printed in our report last year, on the 
 
 16April 1907. question of shortening the hours of labour in order to 
 extend life? 
 
 10272. (Chairman.) Are you secretary of the Opera- 
 tive Masons' Society in London ? — Yes. 
 
 10273. Have you been yourself a stonemason ? — Yes. 
 
 10274. For how many years 7—1 have been secretary 
 for 25 years. Previously to that I was apprenticed 
 when I was fourteen, and worked at the trade until I 
 became secretary. 
 
 10275. Are you of opinion that stonemasons suffer 
 from any particular disease in consequence of their 
 occupation ? — Yes — ^phthisis. 
 
 10276. Is that the only disease on which you wish to 
 give evidence? — Yes, tuberculosis and phthisis — lung 
 diseases generally. 
 
 10277. Have you any statistics or definite facts which 
 j-ou can give the Committee as to the number of cases 
 
 of such disease amongst the men in your trade ? — Yes, 
 I have a brief report from Newcastle. 
 
 10278. Showing that from 1871 to 1896 inclusive 160 
 masons died at Newcastle, 71 of them of phthisis, the 
 average age at death being 42-23 years? — Yes. 
 
 10279. Does that mean the average age of all the nven 
 who died at Newcastle, or of all the men who died from 
 phthisis ?— That is the average age of all the men who 
 -died at Newcastle. 
 
 10280. Have you any other statistics ? — Yes, I have 
 somre statistics from an annual report. I have not 
 gone further back than 1895-6 ; if we go further back we 
 find the figures larger, but since the shortening of the- 
 hours of labour we find the death rats has improved 
 very much. I find in 1905 the deaths from all diseases 
 were 253, and out of those 253, 79 died of phthisis or 
 consumption, an average of 31 per cent. 
 
 10281. Is that for the whole of your society ?— Yes. 
 
 10282. How many members have you? — ^14,000. The 
 average age at death is 44 years from phthisis, and the 
 average of the whole of the members is 51 years. 
 
 10283. Have you particulars of cases of men who may 
 be ill and retire from the trade and then subsequently 
 die from phthisis ? — Yes. 
 
 10284. Would they still be members of your society ? 
 — ^Yfs, we have a superannuation fund. 
 
 10285. At what age can the men come on the super- 
 annuation fund ? — We have no age limit. We have 
 many who come on at 40. We have a membership 
 
 limit. We find that young men who go on our fund, 
 say at about 40 or 41, do not live long. The older 
 men live a good many years, some of them. I can show 
 you some certificates, if you like, proving the length of 
 time they were ill from phthisis — some of them a very 
 short time. I had a death case a fortnight ago from 
 Manchester in which the man had had phthisis for 
 two years, but w:orked up to the day before he diedi 
 
 10286. Do the certificates from your doctors dis- 
 tinguish between fibroid phthisis and tuberculous 
 phthisis ? — Yes. , We find that with fibroid phthisis 
 the men live longer than they do when they are .affected 
 with ordinary tubercular phthisis. 
 
 10287. What proportion of the cases is represented 
 by fibroid phthisis? — I have not th« proportion, but I 
 should say about half would be pneumonia phthisis and 
 half fibroid phthisis. 
 
 10288. Has it occurred to you that it would be rather 
 difficult to say, in any given case of a man who died of 
 ordinary tuberculai- phthisis, whether he contracted 
 the disease through his employment or not. Of course, 
 there is a gi-eat deal of ordinary tubercular phthisis 
 amongst the general population, is there not ? — ^We 
 often get a certificate from the doctor when ihe i^en 
 go on our superannuation fund stating that they are 
 suffering froon "stonemasons' lung." 
 
 10289. Is not that fibroid phthisis? — ^Yes, in some 
 cases. 
 
 10290. Is not it so in all cases? — I do not think so. 
 
 10291. There is unhappily a very large death rate 
 amongst the English population from tuberculosis, 
 that is, tubercular phthisis, and amongst the people 
 who would naturally be expected to die froon that 
 disease are persons engaged in the stonemasons' trade. 
 I am not speaking of fibroid phthisis, but supposing a 
 stonemason died from tubercular phthisis, how could 
 anyone say whether he contracted that disease from his 
 employment or not ? — The doctor would generally say 
 so. I daresay it might be from some other cause, it 
 misjht be a family complaint ; but it is very rare, I 
 think. It is generally set up by the dust. 
 
 10292. Do you think that tubercular phthisis ought 
 to be the subject of compensation ? — Yes. 
 
 10293. Supposing it were included in the schedule 
 to the Act and a stonemason" died of the disease, how 
 is it possible to say whether it was due to his employ- 
 ment or not. There may be half a dozen men in the 
 same town 'also dying of the disease who are not stone- 
 masons; there might ibe furniture makers or cab- 
 drivers or gentlemen of means dying of the -disease, 
 might there not?— I should think the doctor; could 
 
DEPARTMENTAL .-COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 323 
 
 deterBjin© by the length of time he. has treated his 
 patient. I have known very strong young men who 
 have contraoted phthisis through the stone dust, and' 
 s<?me of them have not lived many months. Some have 
 givep up the trade and gone on our superannuation 
 fund and lived sev^al years, 
 
 1. 10294. But do not you know that people who are not 
 stonemasons contract phthisis at an early age and die ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 10295. But you still think, do you, that a doctor 
 would be able to say, in cases of tuberculous phthisis, 
 that A was not a stonemason, he died of tuber- 
 culous phthisis, and the disease was not due to' his em- 
 ployment, but B was a stonemason presenting precisely 
 the same symptoms, dying at the same age, and his 
 death was due to his employment ? — Out of the number 
 of deaths from phthisis of which I have particulars, 
 some were from tubercular phthisis, the others were 
 from phthisis brought about no doubt by inhaling 
 stone dust. 
 
 10296. With regard to fibroid phthisis the case is 
 very .different, because that caji very frequently be 
 determined to be due to a dusty occupation ; but my 
 point is with regard to tubercular phthisis. Has not 
 it occurred to you that there is very great difficulty in 
 deciding between the two. Although one may have 
 the idea in one's mind that tubercular phthisis is more 
 life in a particular trade, when you come to a particu- 
 lar individual, is it not difficult to say that his disease 
 is due to his employment ? — As I sav. we have very few 
 tube;rcular cases which is consum.ption. 
 
 -10297. Then you attach much more importance, do 
 you, to fibroid phthisis ? — Yes. As I say out of 79 men 
 i;il J.905 who died of phthisis, I think two died of tuber- 
 cular phthisis. 
 
 ;- 10298. . Are the others stated to be cases of fibroid 
 phthisis ? — We put them in our annual report as 
 phthisis. 
 
 10299. There is another point on which .T should like 
 to' have your opinion, and it is .a very unportant point. 
 Siippose fibroid phthisis were included under the Work- 
 men's- Compensation Act, and there was no difficulty 
 in, determining that it was due to the employment, and 
 a^ man if he got fibroid phthisis could claim oompensa- 
 ti<3|n, what would be the position of working men who 
 were suffering from the preliminary symptoms of fibroid 
 phthisis — who caught bronchitis occasionally, who were 
 perhaps looked upon as asthmatical. Have you con- 
 sidered whether employers of labour would not be dis- 
 posed to dismiss those men before they became in- 
 capacitated from fibroid phthisis in order to prevent 
 the possibility of a heavy claim for compensation? — 
 Possibly so. I have considered that and possibly they 
 would do so. 
 
 ■10300. That is a point which is very much in the 
 mind of the Committee, and I should like to know what 
 is your opinion of the comparative advantages of in- 
 cluding or excluding fibroid phthisis. The point I 
 want to put to you is this : If the inclusion of fibroid 
 phthisis had the result that men did not get any com- 
 pensation 'because they were dismissed as soon as they 
 showed any symptom's that might lead up to fibroid 
 phthisis, would it .be to the advantage of the working 
 men or not to include it in the schedule ?— Possibly it 
 might not be to the advanta,g© of the workmen, but my 
 Society carried a resolution that the case be laid before 
 you seeing that we have such a large percentage. We 
 had 31 per cent, dying of phthisis in 1905 ; we had 
 32i per cent, last yelar, and if I go back ten years I 
 find a wnsiderably' larger percentage. We have some- 
 what reduced it by shortening the hours of labour. 
 
 10301. Admitting for the moment for the sake of dis- 
 cussion that fibroid .phthisis is a trade disease among 
 stonemasons, and that numbers of them die of it, and 
 that it would be quite reasonable for the employers to 
 be madte to pay compensation, the point I put is, is it 
 to the advantage of the stonemasons— the working men 
 — fo include this disease, with the possibility that no 
 one may ever get the compensation, because .men who 
 showed the preliminary symptoms would straightway 
 be, dismissed?— Yes, but my society is of opinion that 
 ye sh<:uld try and giet it incorporated In the Act unaer 
 dapgerous diseases. We have taten a, resolution on it. 
 •40302. Have your society considered that point?— I 
 think so. I agree with you that in many respects it 
 would be detrimental to us, and an fmplo/er wouia 
 be very capful not to employ men who looked anytmng 
 like consumptive. ,1 quit© agree that it would have 
 that: effect,' but at th^ same time my. society thinks it 
 
 419 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 Hancock. 
 
 pensitiJn 'Yf^^ f. ^'^t '^^^S^^'^^ diseases for com- 
 Suestion -^ "" '^""^^^ ^°*^ '^*^^ «f the 
 
 WoE^/V'' ''^^l^- ^^'""l ^^ h^^ ^^^ said that the 18 AiriTigo; 
 
 Workmen s .Compensation Act already prevents men 
 
 who have some physical defect,, such as the loss of ^ne 
 eye or who may be infirm in some way or other, from 
 getting employment because employers will not take 
 tne risk of their having .an accident?— I believe that 
 
 IS SU( 
 
 10304. Would not that be very greatly increased in 
 the case of phthisis, which is unlike lead poisoning 
 and anthrax and phosphorus poisoning, because it is 
 a disease which takes a longer period to develop You 
 cannot say a man has got the disease, and he must stop 
 work and get compensation, ks there might be five 
 eight, or ten years of preliminary symptoms ; and 
 during that period he may be liable to dismissal, and 
 lose his work altogether, might he not?— Yes, w© have 
 seen that difficulty. Ours is casual employment, too. 
 One of our men may work three or four months in a 
 year for one firm and three or four months for another 
 firm. We have very few who are employed permanently. 
 We have reviewed these difficulties, and my society is 
 anxious that it should be included if the Committee 
 can see their way to do it. 
 
 10305. How long do you think a man works at the 
 tradie before he gets fi.broid phthisis ?— 'It varies. We 
 have miany who die at 23, 24, and 25 years of age ; some 
 live to 50. 
 
 10306. Would the average period be quite ten years- 
 before a man contracted the disease ? — Less than tliat I 
 should think. I should put it at five. 
 
 1030.7. The men going from on© employer to another' 
 would in the course of that five years be employed by a 
 number of different persons, I suppose ? — Possibly. 
 
 10308. Who do you think ought to pay the com- 
 pensation supposing at the age of 23 a man got fibroid 
 phthisis and was incapacitated for the rest of his life ? 
 — -I suppose that would depend entirely on where the 
 man worked last, and how it could be traced back. We 
 have reviewed that difficulty. In some cases we have 
 men employed for years at one place. ; but that is only 
 in some cases. The majority of our men have casual 
 employment. We bave seen the difficulty, but I think 
 it could 'be overcom.e. 
 
 10309. How ? — ^I think the Act does it somewhat. 
 
 10310. The Act takes into account .only persons who 
 have employed the worker during the previous twelve 
 months. They may be 'brought in, but that applies 
 almost .wholly to diseases which arise with a certain 
 amount of rapidity, and are not of such slow growth 
 as fibroid phthisis? — ^We have many cases of fibroid 
 phthisis where the men only live a very short time. 
 
 10311. Let me put to you what might be a common 
 case if this disease were scheduled. An operative stone- 
 mason, say at the age of 25, has been working! for the 
 last five or six years for half a dozen different em- 
 ployers, and he begins to show symptoms of fibroid 
 phthisis, would he be able to find employment once he 
 had. shown those symptoms, and if he did, would it be 
 fair to the last employers who had employed him before 
 he was incapacitated— perliaps only for three or four 
 weeks, perhaps for three or four months — to be made to 
 pay the whole of the compensation when the man had 
 been contracting the disease through a series of years ? 
 
 Practically it would not be fair, and I quite agree 
 
 with you that it -would very likely be detrimental to 
 many' of our men getting employment, but at the same 
 time the same thing mi^t apply to lead poisoning and 
 other things which you have scheduled. How do they 
 manlageJ' ^ , ' '"*' 
 
 10312 In the case of lead poisoning there is a mutual 
 insurance- society .amongst the employers, .which 
 covers a large proportion of the employers in the 
 Potteries ; besides which lead poisoning is not of such 
 slow c^rowth, there are many fewer cases, and the men 
 and women often recover after a comparatively short 
 period, so that the burden is small, and it does not 
 matter very much whether it is this employer or that ; 
 but when you have the case of a man who might live 
 for 10 or 15 years receiving half wages all the time, 
 what do you say?— I suppose the insurance would 
 meet it ; the employers would insure and get over the 
 difficulty, I expect. 
 
 10313. Has your society thought out any plan by 
 which these difficulties might be met?— No, they have 
 seen the difficulty and reviewed it, but we have taken 
 
 2 S 2 
 
324 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. W. 
 Hancock. 
 
 16 April 1907. 
 
 it that ths same diflfioulty occurs in the other trades 
 that are scheduled. 
 
 10314. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Suppose you have a 
 young man beginning the trade, at what age does he 
 generally begin to be a masoni? — He is apprenticed 
 generally at 16 or 17 years of age. 
 
 10315. Taking a young man about to be apprenticed, 
 what chance do you think there would b© of his being 
 attacked more or less before he got to the age of 25 — 
 that is, in nine years? — I could n»t say what chance 
 there would be. 
 
 10316. Can you give the Committee any idea from, the 
 figures of your society. The Committee have to form 
 an idea of what is likely to happen in dealing with 
 these figures. What proportion of young men, if you 
 start lOO at 16, would you expect at 25 years of age to 
 be laflEected ? — ^That would somewhat differ in different 
 districts. 
 
 10317. I will put them all together. Let your young 
 men 'be apportioned amongst the districts, and, taking 
 the subject as a whole, what would you say ? — ^I should 
 say the proportion which I have here, which is the only 
 proportion I could get from our statistics. 
 
 10318. What would it come to, 1 in 10 or 1 in 20, do 
 you think ? — Taking the year 1905 there were 79 out of 
 253 who died of phthisis. 
 
 10319. But it will not do, will it, to taJke that pro- 
 portion, because that applies to men up to the end of 
 their lives, while I want you to take the first 10 years. 
 The figure would be imuoh smialler, of course, would it 
 not ? — ^Yes, but the young men die more rapidly. 
 
 10320. Then consider what that means. You have 
 an eanployer who, if he takes on young men at 16, 
 will run the risk that one in four will have to receive 
 half wages during, the rest of his life after he is 25 ? 
 — We find that the men who go on the superanuia- 
 tion fund young for phthisis die very quickly. The 
 men who go on from 40 years of age live a consider- 
 able time when they leave the trade. The young man 
 sticks to the trade as long as he can in order to get a 
 livelihood, and eventually comes on the superannation 
 fund. 
 
 10321. That h^ardly meets my point. Suppose you 
 are an employer taking on a young man of 16, are 
 you likely to take him on if the chances are one in 
 four that you will have to pay him half wages for the 
 rest of his life? — ^I quite follow. Your reasoning is 
 quite logical that it will be detrimental to the men. 
 
 10322. I want to put one other point to you before 
 you answer. What sort of stone chiefiy is cut by the 
 men doing; this work. What is the chief purpose for 
 the use of the stone ? — For ibuilding. 
 
 10323. Would not it be very likely if the cutting of 
 that stone became expensive from any cause, either you 
 would get imiported out stone, or you would get Port- 
 land cement, or artificial stone miade to replace it ? — ^I 
 do not think that would apply. I think now they get 
 the cheapest material they can. 
 
 10324. Yes, that is the cause of the present price of 
 fltone ; but if you bad to pay a young man his ordirfary 
 wages, plus the sum necessary to insure him, with, the 
 risk of one in four going off at 25, which is a 
 tremendous risk, would not that raise the price of stone 
 so much as to throw a great many people out of the 
 trade — Bbould you say it is different to the case of lead, 
 which is a small risk. The amount lan employer has 
 to ipay *o insure his people against lead poisoning forms 
 ■a very smiall item as we know, and that is the reason 
 
 it has been included. It is so small, but here it is 
 very serious, and therefore do not you see it might 
 throw the men out of employment ? — You are drawing 
 ■a very severe point in the matter. 
 
 10325. I am wishing to 'get the figures from you. 
 1 should have thought they would not be so large as 
 one in four, but still they would be heavy, would they 
 not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10326. The figure is not mine ?— You see, in taking 
 the average age at death for the year 1905 it wasSl 
 years and 4 .months, but of the men who died of phthisis 
 the average age was 44 years. 
 
 10327. I understand you would argue from that that 
 tlie risk would not be so very great, but the answer to 
 that is that the Workmen's Compensation Act does not 
 only contemplate death, but it contemplates compensa- 
 tion for inability to work and throwing men on the 
 funds for the rest of their lives. It is a bisger liability 
 than death a great deal, is it not ?— Yes, but you will 
 
 find by the statistics of our society that the young men 
 who are taken with phthisis live but a very short tune. 
 
 10328. Would it not be fairer to say that if the 
 disease was scheduled at all there ougiht not to be com- 
 pensation under a certain age; that up to a certain 
 age la man runs his risk, but beyond some particular 
 age the compensation should begin. That would warn 
 a younig man to go into some other occupation, .and 
 change his profession. Would not it lighten matters- 
 very much if you were to make the age later? — ^Yes, 
 possibly so, but I do not think that would give satis- 
 faction. 
 
 10329. In other words you would rather have the 
 whole cake than half or quarter the cake ? — Yes. 
 
 10330. Are you sure that in trying to get the whole 
 cake the men will not lose a very large portion of it 7 — ■ 
 Possibly so, but I do not think tJfie half measures would 
 be satisfactory. 
 
 10331. What is the average wage of stonemasons? — 
 It varies from 6d. per hour up to lOd. according to the 
 districts. 
 
 10332. What is the average of hours worked per 
 week 1^ — ^In London we work fifty liours per week 
 during the summer, and forty-four in the winter. 
 
 10333. So that 25s. to 35s. is the average weekly 
 wage, is it ? — It is over £2 in the summer. 
 
 10334. Then your proposals do not go beyond 
 phthisis ; they would not extend to bronchitis, would 
 they? — No, we have lots of deaths from bronchitis and 
 pleurisy, but we only ask for phthisis to be included. 
 
 10335. You are perhaps conscious that if you iDegan 
 with bronchitis it would make the thing so big .as to be 
 practically unworkable ? — Quite so, w© only ask for 
 tuberculosis and phthisis to be included. 
 
 10336. Do not you think you would be wise in 
 abandoning the tu:bercular form of phthisis as a thing 
 which can be got by all the population, and sticking 
 simply to fibroid phthisis, which you really can more 
 definitely say is due to the trade ? — Yes, ibut it would 
 not be very much if tubercular phthisis was included, 
 because only four died from tuberculosis in 1905. 
 
 10337. But do not you think you had better stick to 
 fibroid phthisis rather than go for the other ? — ^Yea. I 
 quite accept your suggestion that it would be detri- 
 mental to the men. 
 
 10338. There are a great many more things to be con 
 sidered than merely taking a pen and writing this down 
 in the schedule. I'hat is one thing to do, but there are 
 a great many things to "be considered before doing it, 
 and if you could lighten the ship in some way it would 
 be a great benefit, would it not ? — ^Yes, no doubt. 
 
 10339. (Professor Allbutt.) Do not you think another 
 answer might be that in the midst of all these diffi- 
 culties and complications the way out of it is for the 
 masters and men together to try and establish a system 
 of prevention? — Yes. 
 
 10340. How do you think a system of prevention 
 could be establis-hed in respect of the work? In what 
 part of the work is it that the inhalation of the dust 
 is greatest ?' — ^ Working in the workshops — in the .sheds 
 as we call them. We have sometimes a longi shed, and 
 if you are at one end of the shed you cannot see to the 
 other end for the fine dust, which is what the men 
 inhale, and which gets on their lungs. Of course, men 
 employed in outside huilding are not so liable. 
 
 10341. The men working outside do not suffer at all 
 perhaps from fibroid phthisis ? — ^Not so much perhaps. 
 
 10342. They might be subject to bronchitis from ex 
 posure, but they would not suffer from the dust ? — ^No. 
 
 10343. It appears to me that prevention .may ipro- 
 ceed on one of two lines or on both ; that is either 
 leaving the dust alone and trying to prevent the inhar 
 lation of it, or trying to disperse or suppress it ; which 
 is the easiest thing to do, to try to suppress the dust, 
 or to wear some kind of respirator or sieve which would 
 prevent the inhalation of particles ? — I do not see how 
 you could suppress the dust even if you throw water on 
 the stone, the hard grey stone is of such a nature that 
 the dust would fly ©very time you struct a blow on the 
 chisel. A respirator would certainly be a preventive 
 to some extent, 'hut that would be a detriment. _ If a 
 man went to work in a mason's shop with a respirator 
 on the employer would think he had consumption and 
 discharge him at once. 
 
 10344. Did you say that application of moisturei 
 would not prevent the dust? — ^If the spray was con- 
 tinually put on the stone it might. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 325 
 
 10345. There is no difficulty about that, is there I— 
 I shO'Uld not think so, but then you see the men would 
 be wet in their feet, and standing at the bench all day, 
 *hey would catch cold. 
 
 10346. If the work was moist work the dust would 
 tnot rise, would it ?— No, if it was moist work. 
 
 10347. And if the floor was more or less moist the 
 ■dust would not rise ? — ^No. 
 
 10348. So that the dust could be prevented ? — Yes. 
 
 10349. Is there any other way of allaying the dust 
 Iby fans or anything else ?— I do not think so. 
 
 10350. Is the only way of allaying the dust by water ? 
 — Yes, and that would be only temporary because the 
 stone is so very hard. When the mason is chiselling a 
 stone you can see the fire at every stroke, and that is 
 •where the dust comes from. Suppose you had a piece 
 of stone well saturated with water, in ten minutes it 
 would want saturating again. 
 
 10351. I am supposing a continuous spray? — Then 
 the wet you wpuld get at your feet would do more harm 
 perhaps than the dust. 
 
 10352. That is another point, but a continuous spray 
 would prevent it, would it not ? — Yes. 
 
 10353. There are means of protecting the feet which 
 ■might be used. iEs that the only way in which you 
 think dust could be prevented ? — I do not think it could 
 be prevented without a continuous spray. 
 
 10354. You do not think fans or other such apparatus 
 would be of any use ? — I do not think so. 
 
 10355. You have seen hoods, have you not, with 
 «xhausts ? — Yes. 
 
 10356. Would they be quite inapplicable? — ^I think 
 so. 
 
 10357. Supposing, then, the dust must necessarily be 
 ■caused, are there no means of preventing the inhala- 
 tion of it, such as wearing a respirator ?■ — Those are the 
 lest means no doubt. 
 
 10358. What would ibe the objection to it? — TTiere 
 are difficulties with regard to that. In my opinion, 
 ■when I worked at the trade, if a man cam© into a shop 
 and put a respirator on the foreman would get notice 
 to remove him as suffering from consumption. 
 
 10359. But you are not going to bring that conceit 
 wp as a serious argument, are you? Supposing it tO' 
 4>e made compulsory? — That would be different. 
 
 10360. A man would rather wear a respirator than 
 •die of phthisis, would he not ? — I would myself. 
 
 10351. So your objection would not be a serious one, 
 would it ? — No ; if it was a custom, of course it would 
 he accepted. 
 
 10362. What I thought perhaps you were going to 
 say was that a man could not work with it ? — ^I do not 
 see why he could not work with it. 
 
 J0363. (Dr. Legge.) 1 think you said that 32 per 
 ■cent, of the deatJhs amongst the members of your society 
 were due to phthisis ? — Yes, 32 per cent, last year. 
 
 10364. Do you know that, out of 100 deaths from 
 all causes of men between the ages of 15 and 65 years 
 in the country, 19 are due to phthisis ? — ^No. 
 
 10365. So that under ordinary circumstances 19 out 
 «f those 32 deaths would probably have occurred with- 
 out any relation to the kind of work ? — Yes, if those are 
 the statistics probably it is so. 
 
 10366. Therefore, you are asking, are you not, that 
 campensation should Ibe paid in cases where more than 
 half the deaths might not have arisen in any way from 
 the nature of the work? — ^The reason wte are asking 
 that it should be scheduled is because of the percentage 
 ■of men that die in our own trade through phthisis. 
 We have not taken a general average. You see, when 
 we got 65 last year out of 198 deaths from phthisis, 
 it seems rather a serious thing, and a thing that should 
 l»e scheduled. 
 
 10367. Have the members of your society been pay- 
 ing in certain sums agaist this and other forms of 
 sidiness year after year? — Yes. 
 
 10368. And is your proposal now that those pay- 
 ments should cease, and that a considerably larger sum 
 *han the men now get should be paid by their em- 
 ployers ? — ^I do not quite follow you there. We do not 
 insure with the employer in any way, if that is what 
 yoTi mean. 
 
 10369. No ; what I mean is this : You want the sums 
 ihe men are now receiving from the society to come 
 
 from the employer under the Campensation Act, do ,, .„ 
 you not?-Yes, and we should pay them as well J^'"" ^^■ 
 
 1(B70. They would not cease paying contributions '^'^^'■ 
 to your society?— N9, we pay sick pay, accident pay, 16AprUl907. 
 
 ana an old-age pension— what we call superannuation ' 
 
 We have about 600 memibers, on that superannuation 
 lund, .and a very large majority of them are on for 
 phthisis now. 
 
 10371. Do you think if some other system could be 
 devised whereby a smaller sum than the Act would 
 involve were paid to. some central fund, in addition 
 to the sums that your members pay, it might he better ? 
 —Do you mean an arrangement between the employers 
 and the trade, to pay a sum as a kind of insurance? 
 
 10372. Yes?— Yes, that might be done, but you see 
 the difficulty with us would be the casual employment. 
 We have what we call yard clubs, where the men pay 
 so much a week for sickness, and so on, while they 
 are there. 
 
 10373. There is so much sickness which cannot be 
 attributed directly to the employment, that I am 
 afraid false hopes will he raised in the minds of the 
 members of your society. They would expect that in 
 every case of illness due to disease of the lungs, com- 
 pensation would he paid, would they not?— I do not 
 think so. Of course, that would have to be pronounced 
 by the doctor. We have deaths from many other causes 
 ■ — ^bronchitis, and so on. 
 
 10374. (Mr. Cunynghame.) But compensation would 
 not be payable in respect of the 32 per cent., but 
 only as to the 13 per cent. ?— Yes. 
 
 10375. (Chairman.) Have you anything else you 
 wish to state to the Committee? — I should like to 
 mention the case of a man, aged 40, dying of phthisis, 
 and cases where the doctors certify stone mason's 
 phthisis ; a man superannuated in 1906 died about 
 a month after superannuation. I had a case this 
 week of a man dying in Manchester who worked up to 
 about two weeks before he died. 
 
 10376. {Mr. Cunynghame.) Speaking from a broad 
 point of view, do you think it probable that in the 
 long run the expenses of the Workmen's Compensation 
 Act will fall on the wages. What is your view about 
 it, that it will or will not ? — I have thought of it, and, 
 in fact, my opinion is that it should be something 
 after the style of the old-age pension — subscribed to 
 by the men as well as by the employers. 
 
 10377. I was not saying so much what it ought to 
 be, but as the law is without any provisions for sub- 
 scriptions, do you think it would lead to a reduction 
 of wages ultimately if an employer has to pay so much 
 for the insurance of the men, is it your view that it 
 will come off the wages or not ?— No, I do not think so. 
 
 10378. How do you think it will be provided ? — They 
 will make provision in their contracts or estimates. 
 
 10379. You think the public will have to pay it, 
 do you? — Yes. 
 
 10380. And vou think the workmen will not pay 
 any of it at all ? — ^No, nor the employer. 
 
 10331. So that whatever the sum the law directs 
 should be paid to the Workmen, it will always come 
 from the .public and not from the wage earners — that 
 is your view of political economy, is it?— Yes. 
 
 10382. Is that the view of your union ?— I think so ; 
 the employer insures to make himself safe. If you 
 and I were contracting for a large building we should 
 certainly make provision in our contract. 
 
 10383. Then according to that the building would 
 cost more, would it not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10384 Then less buildings would be built, would 
 thev not or do you think from some mysterious source 
 more money would come to pay for any amount of 
 buildinc ?— As a rule, the public has to paj for every- 
 thing ; l>uildings are a necessity, you see. 
 
 10385. Buildings cannot Ibe imported from, abroad, 
 but stone can? — ^Yes. 
 
 10386 In the views you have been expressing, the 
 political economy considerations are based on the 
 grounds you have put before us, are they ?— Yes. TTie 
 contractor would not be anything out of pocket by 
 your scheduling us at all. 
 
 10387. Nor the workmen ; the public would pay for 
 all?— Yes. 
 
 10388 And if the public pays for all, all the way 
 round, where is the extra money to come from? Have 
 you thought of that?-From the public, of course. It 
 
326 
 
 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr ■ Wi 
 Hancock. 
 
 16 April 1907 
 
 was in consequence of the number of deaths occurring 
 from .phthisis that my society passed a resolution some 
 time ago to approach, the Comanittee, 
 
 10389. (Chairman.) The difficulty is not in proving 
 that the disease is due to the employment, but it is in 
 connection with the consequences that would occur to 
 the men if it were scheduled ?— We have taken that 
 into consideration, and it would be detrimental, no 
 doubt, in some cases. An employer would say to a 
 foreman, if he saw a siclily-looking mian in a shed, 
 " You had better get rid of that man, I do not want 
 to run any risk." 
 
 10390. Then what is to iUi>p9s to the man 7-^1 
 suppose he would have to g»t *m:plpyment somewhere 
 else. 
 
 10391. In some other trade ? — In some other trade. 
 
 10392. Is it la highly skilled trade ? — It is a highlj^ 
 skilled trade. 
 
 10393. How long an apprenticeship does a mart 
 serve to the trade ? — ^Five or six years. The trade is. 
 similar to what you see Ibefor© you in this ibuilding — 
 preparing the stone for building and fixing and moiild- 
 ing it. If you want any jfurther proof with regaT(J 
 to the ages of the men I can give it to the Committee- 
 
 Mr. John Loakb (of Loake Brothers, Kettering, Vic»- President of the Incorporated Federated Associatioi* 
 of Boot and Shoe Manufacturers of Great Britain and Ireland) ; Mr. Ji Gipson Clabke (of J. Gipson 
 Clarke : and Co., Leicester, boot manufacturers) ; Mr. W. Beale (of Beale and Co., Northampton, boot, 
 manufacturers), called and examined. 
 
 Mr. J. Loake ^'■- Loake (speaking) : I have been connected with 
 
 Mr. J. C. ' *he boot trade for 40 years, 27 yeai-s as a manufacturer 
 
 and previously as an employe, so that I am thoroughly 
 
 Mr. TV. in touch with all the conditions affecting the trade. I 
 
 Beale. should like to give evidence on the two points of 
 
 phthisis and chrysoidine poisoning, and I have got 
 
 some outside opinions. I went to see our Medical 
 Office of Health at Kettering and three other doctors 
 who had been in practio© at Kettering for many years, 
 and asked them three questions. I asked them : " Are 
 you aware of any case of phthisis occurring in a boot 
 pr shoe operative working in the finishing department 
 which can be said to be due to the special condition 
 of his employment? (2) Do you know of any special 
 conditions in the finishing department of a boot 
 factory which are likely to predispose an operative 
 to phthisis any more than in any of the factory life ? 
 ; (3) Are you aware of any case of chrysoidine poisoning 
 
 resulting from working in the finishing department 
 in a .boot factory?" Those questions I submitted to 
 four doctors in Kettering, and in each case I got the 
 same answer. Dr. Van Vestranrt writes in answer 
 to question 1 : "No, I am not. I have practised for 
 13 yea,rs in Kettering and for 16 years in Sheffield 
 and Birmingham, and am of opinion that this disease 
 IS no more common among the shoe operatives of the 
 former town than it is .amongst the workers in the 
 various trades of the two latter cities. I have not 
 found the disease miore prevalent in the finishing 
 department than in any other." In answer to ques- 
 tion 2 he says : " No, I do not. I visfted Messrs. 
 Loake Brothers' finishing department and found the 
 atmosphere particularly clear and fresh, a condition 
 no doubt due to the ventilating and suction fans kept 
 going foT the purpose of keeping it so." In answer 
 to question 3, he says : " I have never seen a case 
 or he^rd of such a disease as ' chrysoidine poisoning ' ; 
 indeed, I was not aware that this dye was used in shoe 
 work until now." That is the opinion of Dr. Van 
 Vestranrt, who has practised very largely amongst 
 boot operatives in Kettering. I next submitted the 
 questions to Dr. John Allison, the Medical Officer of 
 Health for Kettering, who has been in practice 21 
 years, and he simply wrote " No " to all the questions. 
 The next dootor I consulted was Dr. Dryland, who has 
 been in practice in Kettering for a numTjer of years (as 
 was- his father before him, and who was medical officer 
 for the Board of Guardians for many years), and he 
 writes me in answer to the questions, "No." Both the 
 latter gentlemen are in practice at our hospital, too, 
 which is supported by voluntary contributions, and in 
 which they are largely interested. Many cases of illness 
 go to the hospital, so that those doctors in particular 
 wo old ibe conversant with the diseases or complaints 
 amongst the workers. The next doctor I consulted 
 was Dr.- Eoughton, who has been in practice for many 
 years in Kettering. You see they refer to the ques- 
 tions of fans. I do not know what there can be in 
 finishing machinery ,as likely to cause phthisis except 
 the dust. 
 
 . 10394. (Chairman.) Does that evidence relate to 
 workpeople engaged as clickers ? — ^I asked the question 
 with regard to the finishing department especially, 
 because that, I thought, was the evidence required. 
 
 10395. It is the clickers about whom the Committee 
 have received more evidence than as to the other 
 workers ?— r-I have the letter here in which your tele- 
 gram is quoted : " Evidence particularly required as 
 to phthisis 'amongst iboot finishers and poisoning by 
 chrysoidine." 
 
 10396. Can you say whether amongst the clickers 
 there is more dust evolved in the operations in which 
 they are engaged than in other branches of the trade i 
 — There is no dust at all evolved ; they have perfectly 
 clean skins on a 'board and .cut them up with a sharp 
 knife. I have been a clicker by trade all my life, so 
 that I know exactly what I am speaking about.. 
 
 10397. Do the men bend over their work in a con- 
 strained position? — Yes, they do bend slightly over 
 their work, but they have their boards at .a reasonably 
 height, just as high as .they like. Tall men do not 
 bend unnecessarily ; they have their boards propped 
 up to suit them, 
 
 10398-9. (Dr. Legge.) And being sucih light work does 
 the weakling of the family rather incline towards click- 
 ing than finishing as an occupation ? — I have never 
 heard it suggested. (Mr. Beale.) Might I eay that I 
 consulted the Medical Officer of Health in Northamp- 
 ton on this point. Some time ago, at a meeting of the 
 members of the Royal Sanitary Institute, in a paper he 
 read, he mentioned that the clickers were the men who- 
 mostly suffered from phthisis, but he did not attribute 
 it to the fact that they worked in an atmosphere- that 
 was not healthy, or to bending over their work, but he;, 
 said being the lighter employment in the trade, the 
 parents mostly put their weaklings to the work. 
 
 10400. (Chairman.) Do you agree with that?^: 
 Yes, I do. I think that is why we get more phthisis 
 in the clicking room. {Mr. Loake.) My personal ex- 
 perience is that there has been more phthisis in 
 the 61icking room than in the finishing department. 
 In connection with the finishing department every 
 machine is fitted with a suction fan, which draws 
 away not only the dust but the air which the men 
 are breathing, .and the doctors who came to our 
 factory for the purpose of examining the conditions; 
 in the finishing room said it must tend to ipromote 
 health and make phthisis less likely, because the 
 people could not possibly 'breathe the same air twice. 
 
 10401. To what do you attribulte the prevalence of 
 phthisis in the clicking room ? — I really do not know- 
 It has been often a matter of anxiety as to what was 
 the canse of it. I cannot imagine it is the nature of 
 the employment ; I think it is very largely because the 
 men will not have better ventilation. They are . sd 
 susceptible to draught, or they think they are, that if 
 we 'keep ventilators open they flbung up every place 
 they can with rag or paper, and close the windows 
 directly. That is one of the greatest mistakes made 
 by clickers. We have Blacikman's fans in the roof 
 always, which they cannot interfere with, driven 
 by the main shaft. 
 
 10402. Do you get cases of fibroid phthisis amongst 
 the clickers, or are they cases of ordinary tubercular; 
 phthisis ? — I am afraid I cannot answer that question, 
 but with regard to p'hthisis in the clicking room, the. 
 phthisis which has occurred in our own place has been 
 connected with distinct and definite families. We 
 have had one family — ^a family of Chapmans — where 
 the father died of phthisis, two daughters died of 
 phthisis, and one of the sons died of phthisis, so that 
 there was a natural predisposition to phthisis. With 
 regard to this point, it seems to .me very important,, 
 beca'use we find it developing itself in such a subtle 
 way, and whatever may be done with regard toi 
 attributing it to any particular cause, I think it is 
 impossible to say that it can be definitely traoe.able to 
 any particular cause. According to ' the- medical 
 returns of our own Medical Officer of Health, the death' 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 327 
 
 rate in the boot trade, as a -yvhole, ds lOwer than in 
 many other trades, and ia very favourable. It is even 
 iower than in the medical profession, and according 
 to' the returns published from other boot .centres, the 
 deaths from phthisis in the boot trad© are not per- 
 ceptibly higher than those' amongst people of no em- 
 j)loyment and reti««d. 
 
 10403. Have you anything to add to Mr. Loake's 
 evidence, Mr. Beale, on this point— apart from the 
 question of chrysoidine,?— (Mr, Beale.) With regard to 
 phthisis in Northampton, I .have been told by our 
 Jledical pfficer of Health that there is a' decline in 
 consumption in Northampton. In 1901 there were 104 
 ^leaths; in 1902, 126; in 1903, 114; in 1904, 104- 
 in 1,905, 99 ; and in 1906, 80, In 1903, out of the ll4 
 deaths, there were only 32 in the boot trade ; in 1904, 
 *ut of the 104 deaths, only 47 ; ' in 1905,' out qf the 
 •S9 deaths, only 30 in the ^boot trade ; and in 1906, oiit 
 of the 80 deiaths, 26 only were in the boot trade.' At 
 ihe last census in 1901 the population was 87,021, 'and 
 the numbers engaged in the boot trade were 16,211, 
 so that only a fifth of the people in Northampton are 
 «ngaged in the boot tr^,de. 
 
 .1 1 10404. About a fifth of the' numbers and about a 
 ■third of the mortality, according to those figaires ? — 
 Tes, that would be so. {Mr. Loake.) There is one 
 ■point I omitt«d to mention, and that is what a serious 
 matter it would be for the workpeople themselves if- 
 *his disease were scheduled, because every manufacturer 
 would be bound to have the workpeople- examined 
 ■periodically, and if there was the -Slightest symptom 
 «f ■weakness they would have to go. Theh' we might 
 take people into our emplo^fmeilt stifEering from 
 phthisis without the slightest knowledge of the kind, 
 .-and long before the thing has been discovered we should 
 be liable. 
 
 . 10405. Have you .anything to, add, 'Mr. Clarke?— 
 iMT. Clarke.) I should like to corroborate what Mr. 
 loake has said with reference to the clicking depart- 
 ment. I have not looked up much information with 
 respect to phthisis amongst clickers, but in reading 
 T)r. Mallard's report, I notice, as showing the 
 difference in the imiportanoe he attaches to the clicking 
 ■and the finishing room, that he only devotes about six 
 lines to the clicking room in connection with 73hthisis, 
 while he devotes about a page and a half to the subject 
 in dealing with the finishing room. With regard to 
 ■our firm, in 10 or 15 years we have only had one case 
 •of phthisis in the clicking room. He saves figures for 
 ■Leicester, and for 1905 there are 2.62 per thousand 
 ■deaths in the boot trade from phthisis; in other 
 "trades, including hosiery, the rate is 1.75, and the rate 
 amongst those he is unable to classify is 2.26, nearly 
 as large as th© deaths amongst those engaged in the 
 ■shoe trade. Then Dr. Mallard ■ooints out that in the 
 ■old days, 12 to 20 years ago, finishers used to work in 
 unhealthy rooms, many- of them worked in their own 
 )iomes, and were bendin<r over blue lights or gas lights 
 in heated atmospheres with the boot pressed against 
 the chest, and developed what was termed in the trade 
 boot maker's chest. Afterwards there -was a revolution 
 ' with regard to the finishing work ; men came inside to 
 wiork. machinery was introduced, so that one has to 
 •consider the matter in connection -vpith the old 
 methods, under which men, through the conditions I 
 Tiave' mentioned, were predisposed to consumption, be- 
 cause many of those men are engaged in the finishing 
 rooms to-day. Then he sums up with regard to -the 
 T)oot .and shoe trade generally by s.aying that with 
 proper ventilation and attention to the shafting, as 
 -mentioned by Mr. Loake, so that the air is kept pure. 
 Tie sees no reason why the boot trade should be termed 
 an unhealthy trade. I may say that m Leicester the 
 number of boot manufacturers is decreasing : the 
 smaller ones are beina eliminated. I think something 
 like 40 or 50 during the last 12 years have retired, or 
 for some cause or other have disappeared from the 
 ranks of the boot manufacturers. The larger peo.ple 
 are those to whom this question of sanitation and ven- 
 tilation-applies, and the Leicester factories to-day .are 
 well ventilated the shafting arrangements are being 
 attended to by' the manufacturers , themselves, and it 
 there is any machine iiiventai, or .any differentmethod 
 lor improvement from the workers' point of view, ex- 
 pense is not spared in Leicester. So that taking IJr 
 Mallard's report* I do not think it can be P«d-that. 
 the death rate amoncst .the shoe trade m Leice^^?^ 
 from this disease -is at all excessive. Then there is 
 another thing in connection with the shoe trade IJr. 
 ■Mallard- .mehtionsi • that is, that he investigated tha 
 percentage in these cases for 1905.,. and he came to the 
 
 Clarke and 
 
 Mr. J( . 
 
 Beale. 
 
 conclusion. that about .54 per cent.. of the people who ^r r r ,. 
 daed had some relatives who had either died from o? ^m'^'P"^'" 
 ''tZr'^''^''i-'°''^^^''^'- Therefore many of K '^'' •''''■ 
 f^?n\ \^""^''^'''^'^ ^ ^^^ <ii^as« 'befor; coming 
 inrrlll f •^'i<'« ■ ^^'=^^6 SO that it appears to me to be 
 
 ^^^ll^i^'^ f:*"''^'^^;*^^ *^™'^« l^y scheduling theon 
 
 " j?i li^ ^^'''^'"'S- Then there is another point. Itl6AprUl907 
 IS difficult, as Mr. Loake has said, *o lay down in defi- — " 
 nite Imes^ with regard to the shoe trade, that the 
 mdust^ is responsible. , We have had one or two 
 eases of delicate .men who have married and I remem- 
 ber one-case particularly which caiiie under mV 
 personal observ.ation. It was common talk amongst 
 his colleagues that the man never ought to have got 
 married, because he was in a delicate state of health, 
 and from the date of his marriage he developed- 
 Symptoms, .and ultimately died of consumption. That 
 IS- .a -p^mt which has to be borne in mind. If the 
 disease can. be proved to be directly due to the mah'S 
 employment, it-ought to be scheduled, but it cannot be 
 proved,^ and I am quite sure it would be detrimental fo 
 the operatives themselves if the disease were scheduled. 
 We have a man in our place who has suffered from 
 appendicitis, who has been .away for three months, land 
 we have 'kept his place open. He is restored now, and 
 at work. Other manufacturers in Leicester do the' 
 same thing,' but It is quite evident that if this disease 
 was scheduled; the insurance companies would cer- 
 tainly ' sHaggest, in a case of that sort, that .a miah'a 
 position should not (be kept open for him in .case'lf^ 
 should develop something else. There are, no deubt^ 
 in the boot-'trade, man-ypeople who are 'delicate, tout 
 who -frill never die fi-oni phthisis ; but 'if the disease 
 were scheduled I am convinced that the manufacturers 
 would have to seek advice from medical men, and the 
 result would be that if a man was at all delicate, 
 whether he had phthisis or not, he would be under 
 O'h&erva.tion, and ultimiaitely find himself amongst the 
 Unemployed. Therefore that is a question which will 
 require very serious consideration by the Committee' 
 before- they schedule " anyithing in connection with 
 phttiisis ; because, as I- say, it is pretty well impossi- 
 ble to trace that a man or woman has died from 
 phthisis as the. result .directly of his or her employ-^ 
 ment. 
 
 10406. With regard to chrysoidine poisoning, the 
 Co.mmittee have had evidence that some- few years -ago, 
 Jtnd ' especially at Bristol, there were a considerable 
 ilumber of cases of poisoning causing . ulcers and 
 other injuries in the arms, which were proved to be 
 due to this substance, or to something which was 
 mixed with it. Is chrysoidine used now at all for the' 
 dyeing of parts of boots? — {Mr. JJoake.) Yes, it is, 
 diluted. 
 
 10407.' Is it used generally ?— We have always used 
 it, more «r less, for 27 years. Our forernan, who has 
 been with us for 12 years, and was foreman at Lc'ices- 
 ter-previously, has used it, and has iiev^r found a case 
 of poisoning-or any injury arising from it. Dr. Eough- 
 ton, who visited our factory,- .appealed to one of our 
 men who used it. He said, " How long have you used 
 this- chrysoidine stuff?" The man said, "About 30 
 years." ."Have you ever had any injury from it?" 
 "No." -"Have you ever seen anybody who had?" 
 "No." The next man said he had used it for 20 
 years, and had never found any injury; and I, per- 
 sonally, have never heard of any poisoning from its 
 use. The four doctors I have referred to also say 
 that they have never known a case. 
 
 10407*. It seems possible that the poisoning may have 
 been due to' something which was mixed with the 
 chrysoidine, in some oases oxalic acid, in other cases 
 picric acid,' and in other cases chromic acid, and it 
 is possible that these ulcers- may have been akin to 
 the ulcers found among dye workers from the use of 
 chrome. Do you use the chrysoidine diluted simply 
 with -water, or mixed with a chemical ?— We have used 
 it mixed with oxalic acid. 
 
 I64O8. Have .you found any evil results arising?— 
 Never. One of the men to whom the doctor spoke said 
 that if you had a cut it would make it smart, but 
 that is all. We were never conscious of any danger 
 with rec'ard t6 it. I went to the chemist in Ketter- 
 ing who supplies it to us, and he .said,. "I should not 
 iiave thought that chrysoidine would have been suffi- 
 ciently poisonous to be of any danger.- I think he 
 said they did not label it as poison, and he looked up 
 a book and found that it was used internally. ^ Diluted 
 as it is diluted in factories) I shqiuld think it is per- 
 fectly harmless. 
 
328 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE; 
 
 l/r. J. Loake, 
 
 Mr. J. G. 
 
 Clarke and 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 Beale. 
 
 10409. Have you ever used it mixed -witli chromic 
 acid ? — ^No. 
 
 10410. The evidence is conclusive tihat a number of 
 bootmakers did suffer from severe ulceration, which 
 
 incapacitated them from thedr woit for many weeks, 
 
 .6AprilI907. "^^^^ could be a,ttributed only to this material, or 
 _^^_ ' something mixed with it. Thiat wias about five years 
 ago^Would there be any possibility of mistaking it 
 for anything else ? 
 
 10411. There was a run of oases at Bristol at one 
 or two factories, all occurring simultaneously? — Is it 
 known in the medical profession as being a symptom 
 which nothing but cbrysoidine produces, 'because that 
 is the point. Lead poisoning is distinguisha)ble as 
 such, anthreix is distinguishable eis isuoh, but I think it 
 is very important to ascertain whether chrysoidine 
 poisoning is of such a character that it is distinguish- 
 able las such from the specific symptoms. 
 
 _ 10412. That, of course, is la matter for investiga- 
 tion ? — ^It is a very important niatter to consider before 
 you schedule it. 
 
 10413. Have you anything to say on the subject of 
 chrysoidine, Mr. Beale? — {Mr. Beale.) I can hardly 
 add lanything to what Mr. Loake has said. 
 
 10414. Have you ever known of any case of ulcera- 
 tion amtongst the men who used the substance? — No. 
 I have been engaged in our own factory for a miatter 
 of 20 years, and have .always been about the different 
 departments all the time, and I have never known of 
 a case of poisoning from the substance anentioned. In 
 fact, the stuff is not labelled poison ; it is only the 
 oxalic acid which is labelled poison. 
 
 10415. Is it usually mixed with oxalic acid ? — Not in 
 all cases. 
 
 10416. Do you mix it with anything else? — ^It is 
 mixed with other dyes, I believe, to bring out different 
 colours. 
 
 10417. Do you mix it with chromic acid ? — ^No. 
 
 10418. Is your experience the same, Mr. Clarke? 
 — (Mr. Clarice.) We have not had any cases in our 
 factory. We sent out a numiber of circulars to' the 
 doctors, and one question we asked was whether they 
 bad had any experience of chryskDidine poisoning. Out 
 of eighteen replies, twelve had no knowledge whatever. 
 One oir two said that they had come across one or 
 two cases of ulceration of the skin caused by using 
 chrysoidine. I have also made one or two further in- 
 quiries, and I beKeve there have been in Leicester two 
 or three oases which could be directly attributed to 
 poisoning from the use of chrysoidine. 
 
 10419. Do you think those cases were due to the 
 chrysoidine itself, or to something else with which it 
 was mixed ? — ^Probably to something with which it was 
 mixed. 
 
 10420. Have you had no oases in your own factory ? 
 — ^In our own factory we have had no cases whatever, 
 and in the reports from manufacturers representing 
 5,000 people, two only say they have had a case. 
 
 10421. Chrysoidine has been used for a very long 
 period throughout the trade, has it? — ^It has. (Mr. 
 Beale.) I think chrysoidine was used at the time the 
 finishers used to do work at home, and the whole 
 family was engaged in the work, and children would 
 no doubt be very careless with anything of the kind ; 
 so that if chrysoidine was such a dangerous poison the 
 cases would have been very numerous during the time 
 the finishers worked in their own homes. 
 
 10422. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Why is oxalic aoid put 
 with the chrysoidine ?— (if r. Loake.) I think it is to 
 strike the (colour. 
 
 10423. Would chrysoidine do alone without mixing 
 anything else with it? Is it necessary to mix these 
 other poisonous ingredients ? — The men do these things 
 by rule-of-thumb so much that until this matter was 
 brought up we have not found it necessary to investi- 
 gate it. They make their own dyes in various ways 
 and we have not thought it necessary to trouble about 
 the thing. We have never heard about any disease 
 or illness arising from the use of it. 
 
 10424. Would you have any objection to a_ special 
 rule forbidding the use of poisonous ingredients in 
 dyes? — I do not think we should, but I am afraid I 
 cannot answer that fully. {Mr. Beale.) I niight say 
 that at the present time there are a lot of paints used 
 in the trade. Where chrysoidine itself is used, la 
 natural finish is required. What we call a natural 
 finish is, that after the boot is completed the grain 
 of the leather mus1; be raised. 
 
 10425. In brown boots do you put something over 
 the whole of them to dye them ? — Generally. 
 
 10436. Saffron used to be used for that purpose, did 
 it not ? — Not for the uppers. When the leather comes- 
 to us it is already coloured. 
 
 10427. But surely you must in your inquiries have 
 heard something about this alleged case of chrysoidine' 
 poisoning, must you not? — (Mr. Clarke.) Until I in- 
 vestigated it at Leicester — and I have only come across- 
 two or three cases — I had never heard of it. (Mr. 
 Loake.) Our doctors have never heaird of it. 
 
 10428. A doctor told us that he had investigated it 
 and there ceri;ainly was something in it, and he attri- 
 buted it not to the chrysoidine but to the deleterious^- 
 material used in it. That was a Bristol doctor? — 
 (Mr. Beale.) There is not a case of poisoning fronu 
 chrysoidine known at Northampton according to the- 
 report of the Medical Officer of Health. (Mr. Clarke.): 
 The use of chrysoidine is decreasing 'in Leicester every 
 year. 
 
 10429. (Dr. Legge.) Is oxalic acid used in any other 
 way in the boot trade than mixed with chrysoidine ? — - 
 (Mr. Loake.) Not that I know of. 
 
 10430. Are bi-chromates of potash or soda used at alll 
 to get yellow dyes ? — ^I have not heard of it. 
 
 10431. Is ohromate of lead not used to get the- 
 yellow stain ? — Not to my knowledge. We buy so 
 many of these preparations ready made from people 
 who prepare them ready mixed, ttiat we do not know 
 the composition of them all. {Mr. Beale.) I think 
 you will find that Epsom salts is used more than any- 
 thing else in connection with our trade in Northamp- 
 ir^n. {Mr. Loake.) Our federation have never had any 
 cases of poisoning of any kind brought under its- 
 notice previous to this circular. 
 
 10432. It is an eczema of the hands and forearms ; 
 it is not internal ? — I mean even of that we have never 
 heard anything. 
 
 10433. If it were scheduled I do not think it would 
 be at all a serious matter, would it? — (Mr. Beale.) Is 
 it very serious in its effects ? 
 
 10434. Apparently now and then a case takes ai 
 month or two to get completely well, but the generality 
 of the oases are not serious ? — Daring that time can? 
 the man follow his employment? 
 
 10435. No? — {Mr. Loake.) The only danger about 
 scheduling a thing of that kind is that people might 
 be ill from other causes and attribute it to a cause 
 which is not the real one. (Mr. Clarke.) If it were 
 scheduled the component parts of the chrysoidine- 
 should be described. 
 
 10436. (Chairman.) Is there anything further yow 
 wish to add? — (Mr. Beale.) I Should like to say with- 
 regard to Mr. Clarke's remarks that I hope the com- 
 mittee will bear in mind that it will 'be a very serious 
 thing for the operatives in the boot trade if the ques- 
 tion of phthisis is pushed. Again, for instance, a 
 man might apply to you for a situation and he might 
 have an outbreak on his arm, which he might say was 
 caused by using these dyes, and if there is the least 
 thing the matter with him in all probability he would' 
 not be employed, which will add to the unemployed' 
 again. 
 
 10437. {Dr. Legge.) The late Dr. Diyland, in his 
 report as Medical Officer of Health, some years ago, 
 referred to several cases of nervous breakdown — neu- 
 rasthemia — among the bootmakers of Kettering, due,. 
 it was believed, to the vibration of 1Sh& heavy machinery 
 that was introduced into the boot trade. Do you know 
 anything about it? — {Mr. Loake.) I was not aware of 
 it. I have been on the Urban Council and was on 
 the Urban Council during the time he was medical' 
 officer, but I never heard of it, thougjh I do not deny it. 
 
 10438. {Chairman.) When you say you do not deny 
 it, do you mean you do not deny that it was in the- 
 report? — I mean that I do not deny it was in the- 
 report, but nervous breakdowns arise from many 
 causes. I think they are far more prevalent amongst 
 the commercial travellers and business men than 
 amongst operatives. 
 
 10439. (Dr. Legge.) Is it not iihe fact that in the 
 old times heavy machinery was introduced into fac^ 
 tories where the foundations were not strong enough, 
 causing more vibration, whereas now that cause of 
 complaint has disappeared owing to the better foun- 
 dations ? — Yes, that is so. Everyone now aims at 
 getting a solid base for the machinery. Beforehand 
 it used to be put upstairs in places which were never 
 intended for it, but all that is altered now. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 329 
 
 THIRTY-SEVENTH DAY. 
 
 Monday, 'l^nd April 1907. 
 
 MEMBEES PEESENT: 
 
 Mr. Henet Cuntnghame, c.b. 
 
 Professor CLiEroED Allbittt, t.e.s. 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samuel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. FEAifK EmoTT (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. FiTZMAUBiCE, C.M.G., Called and examined. 
 
 10440. (Chairman.) You are the Chief Engineer to 
 the London County Council, I believe ? — Yes. 
 
 10441. And the staff connected with the main drain- 
 age of London is under your control ? — That is so. 
 
 10442. It has been represented to this Committee 
 that men who are engaged in this work suffer from 
 -various diseases arising from their occupation, and it 
 has been said that they occasionally contract typhoid 
 fever ; that they may get erysipelas, and some other 
 diseases that may result from contamination. What 
 is your experience on that point? — I have prepared a 
 number of tables giving you all the cases of illness we 
 have had, and I have prepared also an abstract giving 
 the cases of illness from diseases which appear to be 
 most prevalent ; I do not think typhoid is a disease 
 that we are troubled with at all. 
 
 10443. How many have you altogether in your 
 employ?— 920. 
 
 10444. The table shows that of enteric fever you had 
 no case in 1903, one case in 1904, no case in 1905, and 
 one in 1906 ?— Yes. 
 
 10445. Of typhoid fever one in 1903, none in 1904, 
 1905, or 1906 ?— Yes, that is so. 
 
 10446. Do your Medical Officer's returns show the 
 ■cases of erysipelas ? — Yes, they do. I have a complete 
 table here. I cannot give any opinion on the medical 
 ■question, but can only give you the actual facts as I 
 find them, and I thought perhaps it would be better 
 to give a table showing every case of illness which has 
 occurred for a certain period. The other tables are 
 simply more or less abstracted from the large table. 
 I may not have abstracted the cases in the way you 
 want them. 
 
 10447. You have no separate head of erysipelas in 
 the abstract ? — No, I have not. 
 
 10448. I noticed, in glancing through the table, 
 there was a case on the first page ; but that was a 
 case of a piermaster? — Yes. 
 
 10449. Would he be subject to infection ?— No ; I 
 think in his case there would not be the least chance 
 of infection. 
 
 10450. He would not be liable to contract the dis- 
 ease from his employment, you think? — ^No. 
 
 10451. In the next fgw pages I do not see any case 
 of erysipelas ? — I do not think you will find many cases 
 at all. 
 
 10452. In your opinion, there is no trade disease 
 amongst the men in the employ of your de- 
 ment?— I do not think so. The principal disieases 
 "we find the men suffer from are catarrh and 
 different varieties of bad colds. I think there is a 
 certain amount of reason for that amongst the men 
 ■who work in the sewers especially, because in the 
 winter time the temperature in the sewers is a little 
 tit higher than the outside temperature ; and in the 
 summer it is a little lower ; so that there is a change 
 of temperature when they come in or out. I do not 
 blow whether that causes the colds. I should think 
 it might possibly ; but it is a very small thing. As a 
 matter of fact, without going into statistics at all m 
 the matter, we have as a general rule considered that 
 these men are exceptionally healthy. 
 
 339-37 
 
 ?^ ■'■^ ^** because you only employ exceptionally Mr. 
 
 healthy men?— We have them all examined before Fitzmavrice. 
 they are put on the permanent staff. c.M.G. 
 
 1 • ^ui'^^' ^^^ ^^ ^^^ engaged in the work were specially 22 April 1907 
 
 i^* ifu- *yP'i°i'^ fever, for example, the preliminary — 
 
 ■healthiness of a man would be no proteotiom? — Of 
 course not ; and I do not think really the work aids 
 any diseases ; otherwise my attention would have been 
 drawn to it long ago. 
 
 10456. And it never has been ? — ^Never. 
 
 10456. There is no sub-division of your department 
 which you think is specially unhealthy, is there? — 
 
 No'. 
 
 10457. (Mr. Cunynghame.) What is the average num- 
 ber of men among whom the absences through sickness 
 other than aoidents occur? — You will find all that in- 
 formation on Table No. 2. 
 
 10458. Do I undeaastand that the proportion of days 
 absent to the total working days does noit work out in 
 any case to 2 per cent. ? — ^No, it does not. 
 
 10459. Could you give any general figure by which 
 you could compare that with the number of days' 
 absence of other employees under the London County 
 Council ? — No, I do not think I could do that ; I might 
 try and get the information for you. 
 
 10460. It is possible it might be in the possession 
 of some of the dep'artments, is it not? — Yes. The 
 Main Drainage is by a long way the largest depart- 
 ment, except the 'Tramways Department. If you would 
 care to have the figure for the Tramways Department, I 
 could get them. 
 
 10461. I should rather like to know what the figure 
 for the Tramways Department works out at. It would 
 be very instructive for many reasons if we could get 
 those figures. — ^I will try and get them for you. 
 
 10462. (Dr. Legge.) Have you had any investigation 
 madei of the bacteria piresent in the air of the sewers? 
 ■ — No, we have not. 
 
 10463. It has been done for the London County 
 Council, has it not? — ^It has been done, I think some- 
 body at his own requesit made the analysis for his own 
 informiation, and I dare say we could get it. 
 
 10454. Yo'U do not know whether there were any 
 pathogenic organisms found in the air? — I should 
 not like to say. I have a list of deaths which 
 occurred during this period also, and the causes of 
 death in each case. But I personally do not attach 
 very much importa.nce to any results which could be 
 obtained from that ta^ble of deaths, fo.r the following 
 reasons. The men who were employed in the time 
 of the old Metropolitan Board of Works get 
 pensions if they are permanently incapacitated ; 
 men who came since that time do not get pen- 
 sions, but they ■contribute towa^rds a fund, and 
 the Council makes a similar contribution ; and if they 
 are incapacitated by illness, they get the two contri- 
 butions. Consequently, if a man is incapacitated, 
 he gets under the one scheme a pension and under 
 the other a lump sum and goe^s, and we cannot 
 trac« him. We had practically eliminated the men 
 who were serious'ly iU before the age of 65 before the 
 table was prepared, so that it very much diminishes 
 any value which might attach to it. 
 
 2 T 
 
330 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. 10465. {Chairman.) But that would only apply to 
 
 Filzmawice, disaases whicli are fatal after an interval. If you had 
 
 C.M.G. men who died from enteric fever, for example, you 
 
 would know of those cases, and they would bs in- 
 
 22 A pril 1 907. eluded, I suppose ?— They would be include! if they 
 
 were in our employ when they contracted the disease j 
 and the tables include all cases of that kind. I only 
 want to point out that too much importance should 
 not be attached to the table. Those deaths given there- 
 include the deaths of all the men at work. 
 
 JIr. Robert John Collie, m.d., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. B J. 
 Collie, M.D. 
 
 (Chairman.) Are you Medical Examiner to the 
 London County Council ? — Yes. I have prepared a 
 short statement of opinions I have formed from a study 
 of Mr. Fitzmaurice's statistics on " The Sickness of 
 Working Staff, !Main Drainage Branch." My experience 
 of main drainage men is confined to the preliminary 
 examination of men entering the service, and their 
 examination every twenty-eighth day should they 
 remain on the sick list so long. It will be seen that in 
 practically all the tables there is a striking similarity 
 in all the figures of the iour years mentioned, there- 
 fore for practical purposes any one year is typical. 
 
 10466. (Professor Allbutt.) Was there not rather 
 a large amount of pneumonia in one year ? — I 
 did not notice it. The impression I have formed from 
 the small number of times I have been called upon to 
 see the men, from a careful study of the tables now 
 before the Committee, and from interviews I have had 
 with the two District Medical Officers who attend the 
 sick night-soil men at the Thames Outfalls, is that 
 they are a remarkably healthy class of men. During 
 the four years covered by the tables there have been 
 only twenty-two deaths from' disease, and the cause® 
 of death as stated do not indicate the prevalence of 
 any particular disease. It iis remarkable that in a 
 staff of 920 men working vidth the sewage of the 
 Metropolis there have been, in a period extending 
 over four years, only three cases of typhoid fever. I 
 have been unable to trace two, but the District Medical 
 Officer who reported the third, states emphatically that 
 it was produced by an insanitary condition in the 
 man's own house. Typhoid fever is essentially a 
 disease of adolescent life. Drainage men who work in 
 the sewers and sludge vessels (where contagion 
 might reasonably be expected) are men of middle life, 
 many of them between fifty and sixty years of age. 
 They are specially selectsd, and are all exceptionally 
 strong and healthy. The sltidge men at all times, and 
 the se^Aer men when above ground, live in the com- 
 paratively bracing atmosphere of the Northern and 
 Southern Outfalls at Crossness and Barking. Further, 
 there is reason to believe (although the exact cause is 
 not yet ascertained) that the specific organism which 
 produces typhoid fever, is more or less absent from the 
 sewage at the Northern and Southern Outfalls, and it 
 .is not unreasonable to assume that the enormous 
 numbers of pathogenic organisms which find their way 
 into the sewage prey upon, and annihilate each other. 
 The District Medical Officers who live in the neigh- 
 bourhood of the Northern and Southern Outfalls (where 
 the sewage enters the river) inform me that the 
 families of the men who work in the Main Drainage 
 Department are by no means below the average in 
 health. In order that I might fully appreciate the 
 conditions under which these men work, and assist the 
 Committee, I took occasion recently to visit the works 
 and thoroughly investigate the conditions which 
 obtain. I satisfied myself that there is nothing which 
 renders the workmen specially prone to disease. I 
 have examined Table 4, where the diseases from which 
 these men suffered are enumerated, and agree that it 
 embraces the most frequently recurring diseases. The 
 Medical Officer of the Southern Outfall is of opinion 
 that there is no disease in Table 5 which he can say is 
 specially attributable to the work the men are engaged 
 in. On the other hand, the Medical Officer of the 
 Northern Outfall states that he believes the tonsillitis 
 is of a septic nature, and that the men are liable to 
 attacks of gastric catarrh, characterised by sudden 
 nausieiai and sickness, and that this is directly 
 associated with certain obscure conditions of the 
 air of the sewers. In this connection, however, I 
 would point out that gastric catarrh is a very frequent 
 result of errors of diet, and of excessive use of alcohol. 
 While one Medical Officer says he sees a large number 
 of these cases, the other, who attends the men who 
 work under exactly similar circumstances on the 
 opposite bank of the river, says he sees but few cases, 
 and attributes them to the causes which I have men- 
 tioned. Further, it is to be remembered that most of 
 
 these men are members of sick clubs, and that they 
 draw sick pay even if ill only for a few days, and 
 receive half-pay from the Council while off duty. The 
 diseases under the heading, " lumbagoi, rheumatism,. 
 and sciatica," I look upon as being of common origin, 
 and are no doubt indirectly the effect of the condi- 
 tions under which most labouring men nave to work. 
 I am not prepared to deny that the hard work and 
 consequent perspiration of men who work in the 
 sewers, and the laleak, exposed position of their work 
 wlien they come above ground, does not make them, 
 somewhat more liable to the undefined condition known 
 as rheumatism. These conditions are, however, in my 
 opinion, not sufficiently marked to call for special 
 treatment by the State. 
 
 10467. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do I gather from your 
 comments on the tables which have been given us by- 
 Mr. Fitzmaurice that a. veiy small percentage of days. 
 seems to be lost by these men in the course of the year 
 through sickness ? — That is so. 
 
 10468. It varies from one to one-and-a-half days in 
 the year, which strikes me as being remarkably small ? 
 —Yes, it is very small. 
 
 10459. As far as I can see from the figures there does- 
 not seem to be the slightest case for including this ia 
 any schedule of diseases at all ? — That is my impres- 
 sion. With regard to the point raised about pneu- 
 monia, which year did you refer to ? 
 
 10470. (Professor Allbutt.) I do not draw atten- 
 tion to it as being a very marked feature ; I think 
 work of this kind, involving change from the sewer air 
 into the fresh cold air at the outfall, and also perhaps 
 some degree of intemperance amongst the men, would 
 quite explain all the pneumonia you have ; but I think 
 in 1903 there were four cases of pneumonia ? — Yes. 
 
 10471. But in the subsequent years it was only one- 
 case ? — Yes ; it is possible that may have been on 
 account of the epidemic of influenza. With this excep- 
 tion one year is typical of another. 
 
 10472. (Vr. Legge) : Do you know of any investiga- 
 tions made as to the bacterial contents of sewer air? — 
 Dr. Andrewes, of St. Bartholomevp's, examined the 
 London County Council sewers, and he seemed to come 
 to the conclusion that any bacteria in them camefroms 
 the outsidei through the gratings', anid that they were 
 not the result of what was there. 
 
 10473. Germs are not given off from the liquid con- 
 tents of the sawer ? — That was the result of his investi- 
 gations. I believe he somewhat modified it later, but 
 I know he formed that opinion. 
 
 10474. Did he investigate, for instance, the splash- 
 ing in the sewers ? — I do not know. 
 
 10475. The sludge is all moist, I suppose ? — ^Yes, jroii 
 would get moisture from it, because they push it with 
 a squeegee, and when a bubble bursts they would get 
 splashes. 
 
 10476. Do you think what you have said as to the 
 v,'ater-carriage system of sewage removal holds good 
 also as regards the health of the men in other methods 
 of the disposal of night-soil, such as the tub system 
 and pail system ? — I have no knowledge ; but I should 
 say it would not. For instance, if you have a typhoid 
 germ in a dry-earth closet (except for the disinfection 
 of the earth for the time being) it would not have the 
 chance of destruction from the other pathogenic germs, 
 in the sewers. But I have no special knowledge on the 
 point. 
 
 10477. Do you have to examine for the London 
 County Council other men besides night soil men ? — I 
 have to examine them all — every one. 
 
 10478. The Sanitary Inspectors ? — Yes. 
 
 10479. Has your attention been called to any par- 
 ticular illness amongst the employees arising out of 
 employment ?— No. 
 
 10480. The Sanitary Inspectors at the London County 
 Council would not be engaged in the work of disinfee- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 331 
 
 tion in housos, wtould they, after fevers and so on? 
 — No, only in th© special departments they look 
 after, 'i in any of the night .shelters, forr instance, 
 iever broke out, these men would disinfect the house. 
 They do not do what the Borough Co-uncil men do, 
 ■except in the particular hoiuses under their care — and 
 there aire few. 
 
 10481. Have you, had cases of definite infectious 
 illness indviced by such work, smallpox, for in- 
 
 been Medical Officer for the County Council only for a Colli, md 
 comparatively short time, and it is only recently that '""!!!:J"-^' 
 1 have examined employees periodically every 28 days, 22 April 1907. 
 so that my experience does not extend over a very long 
 
 10482. In any other capacity have you examined 
 othcials of the District Councils ?— No ; but I certainly 
 never heard of their being specially liable to infection. 
 
 Mr. A. J. Atkinsox, called and examined. 
 
 10483. (Mr. Cunynghame.) What are your qualificai- 
 iions? — I am an analytical chemist practising in 
 -Cardiff, and I am a Fellow of the Institute of 
 dhemistry. 
 
 10484. I believe you wish to state to the Committee 
 something about calcined spathic ore? — It is my busi- 
 ness to sample many samples of iron ore for some of 
 the steelmaking companies of South Wales, and the 
 <;alcined spathic ore is now making some advances in 
 import. Formerly, up to .about four or five years ago, 
 we used to have nothing but natural ores ; but the 
 supply of natural ores in Bilbao has become more 
 scarce, so we have had to fall back on the use of 
 
 calcined spathic ore. 
 
 10485. What is spathic ore ? — Calcined spathic ore is 
 the carbonate of iron which has been burned in order 
 to drive oft the carbonic acid. One or two cargoes have 
 been found to be excessively dusty, and the last we 
 had of that nature was on the " Espana," to which the 
 attention of Dr. Legge was called, and which no doubt 
 ie remembers. As the result of that visit of Dr. 
 Legge, the steel makers of South Wales are beginning 
 to fear that the Committee might decide to include 
 the discharging of these spathic ores among injurious 
 trades, and if all the cargoes were such as that of the 
 "' Espana," I do not suppose they would raise any 
 objection ; but they wish to guard against the Com- 
 mittee assuming that all the cargoes are of the same 
 nature as that of the "Espafia." During the last 
 three years a company for whom I act regularly have 
 had some 120 cargoes of calcined spathic ore, most of 
 them from Bilbao ; and I went through our books the 
 other day to see how many of these cargoes had been 
 objected to by the workmen as being injurious. I 
 found that of the 120 cargoes outside those from Pas- 
 sages and Almeria there were only three objected to. 
 Those from Passages and Almeria have been objected 
 
 to to such an extent that the workers have been 
 granted a much larger rate for discharging, the result 
 being that the manufacturers are trying to limit the 
 importation ; in fact they have practically to exclude 
 the importation of these ores now. 
 
 10486. (Dr. Legge.) Is that a calcined spathic ore? — 
 Yes ; but it has not Ion" been brought here. 
 
 10487. But it is probably going somewhere else? — I 
 do not know how that may be. I do not know that 
 there have been any objections to these cargoes in any 
 port except Newport. I asked the Cardiff manager of 
 <juest. Keen and Nettlefolds, Limited, whether they 
 had any tro'ubl© about it, and he said, "No." 
 A little while ago, when there was a movement 
 in favour of increasing the rate for discharging cal- 
 "cinedspathic ore in Cardiff, the men made some com- 
 plaint, but there has been no specific instance ; and 
 as a matter of fact the movement for increasing the 
 price for discharging was not successful. The evidence 
 that the Steel Makers' Association wish me to give is 
 with regard to the point that cargoes, such as those of 
 the "Espana" and the "Rapido" are quite excep- 
 tional, the bulk of them being perfectly harmless with 
 very little dust ; and what dust there is does not cause 
 the abrasions on the skin. 
 
 10488. (Mr. Cunynghame.) In what respect is the 
 ■dust of these two cargoes exceptional ? Considering it 
 from a physical point of view, what is the difference 
 l)etween these cajrgoes and , the ordinary ones ? — The 
 difference between these cargoes and ordinary cargoes 
 is., tlut in this, dust there is a larger proportion of 
 ■Caustic lime. In the carbonate of iron there is a 
 wrtain amount of carbonate of lime, in some cases 
 Jttor.^, in some cases less ; and when it is aJl put into 
 the kiln the carbonate of iron and the carbonate of 
 Hjne are both calcined and we get oausitic lime, and 
 the dust from that lime causes the sores on the men's 
 arms and faces. They perspire in the hold, and the 
 
 419 
 
 moisture slakes the lime dust as it drops on their skin 
 
 aJid so burns them. Mr. A. J. 
 
 1048i9. Is there a possibility of putting on anything ^*^'"*- 
 to prevent that, such as oil or grease ?— That has not 
 occurred to me. It might be possible, but I do not 
 think the men suffer so much as to desire anvthincr 
 like that. •' ° 
 
 10400. As to the effects of what they suffer from, 
 hiave you seen cases of it yourself and seen where 
 the arms and exposed parts have been sore? — Yes — in 
 the case of the two cargoes I have referred to I have seen 
 the sores on their arms. 
 
 10491. What were the symptoms you saw ? — A little 
 irritation of the skin. 
 
 10492. Wias the skin taken off ?— A Httle bit. 
 
 10493. Did it look like a very bad case of chapping ? 
 — Except that the soresi were circular insteal of 
 straight. 
 
 10494. There wasa redness, was there? — ^Yes, it was 
 more like an eruption. 
 
 10495. How long did it incapacitate the men ? — Not 
 many days. 
 
 10496. Did it actually incapacitate them? — No. I 
 do not know that they were incapacitated from work. 
 They complained while they were working that these 
 places were sore ; but I do not know of any case where 
 a man was actually incapacitated. 
 
 10497. What wages do they get on an average per 
 day for that work ? — They are paid tonnage work. 
 
 1049S. WhaV ww'e they makinig per day? — -I am 
 afraid I cannot say ; because the amount they earn 
 per day depends so much on how they are able to 
 work. Sometimes they are delayed for want of wagons. 
 
 10499. What is the wage that a man at that sort 
 of work will sometimes make on the maximum ? — 
 Fro^m £1 to 30s. a day, I should think. 
 
 10500. But he does not make that the whole year 
 round, does he ?^-No, there are long spells perhaps 
 of three or four days or a week at a time when no 
 vessel comes in, especially at Newport. At Cardiff 
 the work is more regular, because it is all concentrated 
 ill one dock. 
 
 10501. Then, perhaps it is rather difficult to say 
 how long a man has been absent from work on account 
 of suffering? He might be off work because no other 
 ship was coming in ? — I think there would be no diffi- 
 culty as to that. The men are in regular gangs at the 
 different depots or wharves where they discharge this 
 orey and it would be easy enough to find out if any 
 man was off work on account of these sores. I am not 
 the employer of these men, so that I am afraid I 
 cannot answer the question, though I have not known 
 them off work on that account. 
 
 10502. (Dr. Legge). Have you noticed, or had 
 brought tOi your notice, any effects inside the mouth or 
 in the nose or throat? — I have heard that the men 
 spit blood on account of this. 
 
 10503. It must have the same effect on the lining 
 inside the mouth, producing ulceration, as it has on 
 the skin ? — I have no doubt it has some inflammatory 
 effect on the mucous niembrane- of the mouth and nose. 
 
 10504. Do you think that is due tO' the lime ? — Yes, 
 but it is rather a strange thing that these two kinds 
 of ore from Passages and Almeria I have specially 
 mentioned, contained also manganese, and I do not 
 know why the manganese should be a greater irritant 
 than the lime only, but it seems that it was so. 
 
 10505- Oocaeionally men have to lie up, do they 
 not. because of the effects of their work? — I do noi 
 know whether it has ever gone so far as that. 
 
 10506. There are a number of other industries 
 
 2 T 2 
 
332 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. J. which the Committee have to consider. Seeing that 
 Atkin on. it is not very serious incapacity the men suffer from, 
 — ^non-? ^"^^ ^^3,t it is clearly due to their work, have you any 
 ,2 April 19 07. objection to ecezma or eruptions produced by dust 
 being included under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 
 which would cover not only this particular eczema 
 amongst calcined spathic ore workers, but also others, 
 and leave it to the workman to prove that it was due 
 to his employment ? — The difficulty about that, as far 
 as I understand the matter, is with regard to the in- 
 surance. We have the same men employed for work- 
 ing the ordinary non-injurious calcined spathic ore 
 and for working these one or two odd cargoes of dusty 
 spathic ore, and it seems to me the employers of these 
 men would have to insure themiselves ; and I do not 
 quite see how the insurance companies would be able 
 to separate the risk of one or two odd cargoes from 
 the general amount of ore that coimes in. 
 
 10507. These men ere employed and paid, are they 
 not, by the dock authorities? — There are differences. 
 The men you saw on board the " Espaiia " are paid by 
 the dock authorities, but the men of the Ebbw Vale 
 Company are paid by the Ebbw Vale Company, and in 
 Cardifif the men are paid in one case by TJiiest, Keen, 
 and Nettlefolds, and in other cases by a contractor. 
 So that the thing is rather complicated. 
 
 10508. But you could lay before the insurance com- 
 panies the facts you have mentioned as to the rarity 
 of incapacitating illness amonest them, which would 
 convince them as to the smallness of the premiums 
 required, I suppose? — That is true, of course; but as 
 in some cases the Dock Companies employ the men, 
 they would simply insure and charge a higher rat© for 
 discharging all kinds of calcin^ spathic ore. 
 
 10509. Leaving calcined spathic ore, do you ever 
 have trouble in the unloading of such cargoes as cala- 
 mine ? — ^Yes, I have had one or two cases at Swansea, 
 and in one cargo the injury to the men was very much 
 greater than with calcined spathic iron ore. 
 
 10510. Was it very much of the same nature? — 
 Somewhat. 
 
 10511. The eruption on the skin, and perhaps ulcera- 
 tion inside the nose and mouth ? — Yes. 
 
 10512. Would that be produced in the same way by 
 the presence of lime? — I fancy that was due to the 
 carbonate of zinc itself. 
 
 10513. Is it calcined ? — No, it is a natural mineral. 
 It is very dry and dusty. 
 
 10513*. If such illness as that occurred, it would 
 be covered in the same way by " eczema or ulceration 
 of the mucous membrane produced by dust," would it 
 not ? — That is so. 
 
 10514. And seeing that it is rarely that the illness 
 incapacitates, the burden would not be great, would 
 it? — The burden might be great actually. 
 
 10515. I should have thought it was hardly worth 
 troubling the insurance company about it. Although 
 there is no doubt it occurs, it occurs so very rarely, 
 that it might not be worth while to trouble insurance- 
 companies about it, and that you could deal 
 with it yourselves ? — Possibly. I do not know- 
 that I intended to say anything about insurance, but 
 that is what occurs to me, that it would cause difficulty 
 with regard to insurance. The chief point I wish to 
 emphasise is the fact that it is so rare, and that it 
 is hardly worth while to complicaJte the business by 
 the inclusion of this in the noxious industries. 
 
 10516. In the unloading of mundic or arsenical ores, 
 do you know of any ill effects? — I do not. I have no 
 experience of that, but I oaai conceive there would be. 
 Speaking of arsenic, I think, when you were on board 
 the " Espaiia " you asked me something about the 
 constituents of this dust, and whether there was any 
 arsenic in it, and I was not able to tril you excepv 
 in a general way that we did not find arsenic in the 
 Bilbao ores, but we do in the Mediterranean ores. T 
 examined this particular cargo to see if there was any 
 arsenic, and I found there was none. 
 
 10517. With regard to lead ores, do they come into- 
 Ne-wport? — ^No. 
 
 10518. Have you had experience of them in such 
 work as you do ? — I have. I have -had, perhaps-, the; 
 dustiest lead ore which comes in, which interferes with 
 the men considerably. I have had cargoes of litliarge. 
 at Swansea, and there has always been trouble with 
 the men with that. 
 
 10519. Do you know that lead poisoning is already 
 included in the Workmen's Compensation Act? — ^Yes. 
 
 10520. In the unloading of ordinary lead ores you 
 could not get lead poisoning, could you?- — ■Unless the 
 dust found its way into open wounds. These men 
 might have open wounds which might be poisoned by 
 the introduction of lead dust. 
 
 10521. Do you see much of the unloaiding of grain. 
 cargoes? — Not very much. Of course, they are un- 
 loaded in Cardiff ; but I have never hoard of any in- 
 juries from the dust arising from the -grain. 
 
 10522. Does copper precipitate produce any effect on 
 the workmen? — Undoubtedly it does. 
 
 10523. In what way? — In much the same way, the 
 irritation of the mucous membrane, spitting of blood, 
 and irritation of the eyes. I have seen that at Port 
 Talbot, where copper ores come in, and the men com- 
 plained there very seriously. 
 
 10524. Have they complained of chest troubles at all 
 as the result of inhalation ? — They are very indefinite, 
 and I am afraid I could not tell you. 
 
 10525. What struck you is the effect on the skin and 
 the effect on the mucous membrane of the nose ? — ^Yes, 
 the skin chiefly. 
 
 Mr. Thomas Ohveb, m.a., m.d., e.k.c.p., ll.d., called and examined. 
 
 F.E.C.P., 
 LL.D. 
 
 M T nr ■ 10526. (Chairman.) You have received, I think, from 
 MA ' M*D*' ' ''^® Secretary to the Committee a list of the diseases 
 ■ ■' ■ ■' and injuries, not being accidents, which the Com- 
 mittee have investigated ? — I have a list here. 
 
 10527. Have you noticed any omissions from that 
 list of cases of industrial disease which might properly 
 be made the subject of workmen's compensation?^ — ■ 
 Has the Commi-ttee considered the question of sul- 
 phuretted hydrogen? 
 
 10528. The Committee have had some evidence -with 
 regard to sulphuretted hydrogen in chemical work. 
 Do you mean cases of sudden poisoning ? — Yes. 
 
 10529. That would be accident within the meaning 
 of the Act. The workmen would be able to claim, 
 if it were a sudden accident, but if a man were 
 gradually poisoned by working week after week in an 
 atmosphere tainted by this gas it would be a matter 
 for the Committee to investigate. Are there any 
 other cases which occur to you? — There is laundry 
 work, and the question of eczema in the workers. 
 
 10530. We have considered the question of eczema 
 generally ? — -Then there is the question of laundry 
 workers catching smallpox by washing the clothes of a 
 deceased person. Would that come under the Act 
 as it is now, and should not this be brought before the 
 attention of the Committee? It becomes much like 
 anthrax, an accident. 
 
 10531. Would you give me a Ust of other omissions 
 which you think should be investigated? — The same 
 thing would apply to persons worMng in slaughter- 
 houses, killing cattle. About two years ago we had 
 in the North, at a colliery a few miles from New- 
 castle, some of the ponies in a pit iU from infectious 
 disease, and two or three of the men died from acute- 
 pneumonia, not unlike the pneumonia of anthrax. 
 Would a case like that come under the head of indus- 
 trial diseases ? 
 
 10532. Not unless it was scheduled ?— Then there is 
 the question of electricity and electric welding, which I 
 do not think is mentioned. 
 
 10533. What diseases arise there? — ^Burns and 
 sudden death, especially in the former. 
 
 10534. They are accidents, you see? — There is, too, 
 the effect on the eyesight. 
 
 10535. That the Committee have heard something 
 about? — Then there is the question of dermatosis. 
 I have a note here with regard to school teachers catch- 
 ing illnesses from defective drains in school, and ill- 
 nesses during an epidemic by children coming to th& 
 school ; I think that is a matter which should be con- 
 sidered, also the question of house surgeons to infir- 
 maries and nurses to infirmaries. I see vou have dealt 
 with hernia. ' 
 
 10536. (Professor Allbutt.) Supposing a sudden nip^ 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 333 
 
 ure at a certain known moment, that in a healthy 
 ;ian would be an accident, would it not? — Yes. Until 
 low it has never been regarded as an accident, 
 
 10537. In the vast majority of cases, however, it 
 pould be slowly established, would it not? — Yes, one 
 :an put one's fingetupon certain cases where a rupture 
 las occurred at a particular time, and that would be 
 low regarded, I take it, as an accident. 
 
 105138. (Chairman.) Let me take one by one the 
 points ytiu have raised. There is first the question of 
 Jradual poisoning by sulphuretted hydrogen. In what 
 jmployment does that occur? — That might occur in 
 sewer work by men coming out with headaches and 
 dizziness. I include with this other gases — e.g., the 
 gassing of men in streets where they might be mending 
 pipes. 
 
 10539. Would the latter be a case of sudden poison- 
 ing or gradual ? — It might be either. You might have 
 a patient ill for some time from the effects of the gas 
 poisoning. In some cases this has been established. 
 
 10540. Which you think is due to poisoning from 
 sulphuretted hydrogen? — No, that is coal-gas poison- 
 ing ; but I put them all together, and class them under 
 ■work done in confined places, such as a sewer, or where 
 men work at pipes in a street or a tunnel. 
 
 10541. Would these illnesses incapacitate for more 
 than a week ? — ^Yes, some might leave more permanent 
 effects. For example, I have seen in coal-gas poison- 
 ing an illness last a few weeks. 
 
 10542. Are those cases of sudden gassing ? — I hardly 
 know what to call sudden. A man is quite well when 
 he goes to his work, he is exposed to the gas, and 
 perhaps during the day he is taken ill. I would call 
 that comparatively speaking sudden. 
 
 10543. Would it be due to a leaky pipe? — Yes, or 
 to turning up of the soil saturated with gas. 
 
 10544. What other gases cause these effects besides 
 sulphuretted hydrogen and ooal gas ? — Carbon mon- 
 oxide, of course, would give about the same kind of 
 symptoms as gas. 
 
 10545. (Mr. Cunynghame.) The slow effects that may 
 follow a thing that is sudden poisoning could be com- 
 pensated under the provision as to sudden poisoning. 
 Taking, for instance, something wrong with the plant 
 in a gas works, if there was a case of sudden seizure by 
 gas poisoning it would come under an accident, would 
 it not ?— That is the view the Committee take, I under- 
 stand. 
 
 10546. (Chairman.) The only cases the Committee are 
 dealing with are those which are not accidents in this 
 respect, that the effects are not produced suddenly or 
 in an hour or so, but by a slow, insidious process ? — 
 Of course, if a man is exposed repeatedly to poison 
 for some days or months in his occupation, and he 
 becomes gradually saturated with the poison, I take 
 it that would be a chronic case of poisoning. In such 
 a patient you would probably get structural changes 
 which might be permanent. 
 
 10547. Is that so in the case of sulphuretted hydro- 
 gen ? I have been struck with the fact that most of the 
 effects produced by this gas are sudden effects. We 
 have very little evidence of the gradual effects of these 
 gases. For instance, taking carbon mon-oxide, while 
 it is plain it may overcome a man suddenly, I do not 
 think we have any strong evidence, if I remember 
 right, as to gradual poisoning. Have you any experi- 
 ence of gradual poisoning by carbon mon-oxide ? Can 
 you name any cases ? — I cannot name any cases of what 
 you could call protracted poisoning ; the symptoms are 
 generally acute. 
 
 10548. I mean cases that, though they were mon- 
 oxide poisoning, could not be treated as accidents, or 
 would accident cover the ground?— You have men, for 
 instance, exposed at blast furnace works to carbon 
 mon-oxide gas. 'Those men may suddenly be seized, 
 others may work for some little time, then go home, 
 they cannot take their food, they have a headache, they 
 go back to work next day, and are again exposed to the 
 gas ; but there comes a time when they are not able 
 to go back to work. 
 
 10549. Can you trace that to carbon mon-oxide itself ? 
 Is it known it is carbon mon-oxide ?— In the cases J. 
 referred to the gasses were analysed, and large per- 
 centages of carbon mon-oxide were found. 
 
 10550. What cases do you refer to ?— I am referring 
 
 to two cases that were sent to me from the neighbour- j/,-. T. Oliver 
 hood of Stockton-on-Tees. ji.A. M d. 
 
 10551. Recently? — About eighteen months or two f.e.C.p., 
 years ago. In the case of these patients there have ^^■°- 
 been left unmistakable changes in the nervous system, 22 April 1907. 
 
 whereby they are quite unfitted for work, and I take it — 
 
 that is rather the outcome of gradual poisoning. I 
 think on the whole, that, from the point of view of 
 recovery, one would rather deal with an acute case of 
 poisoning, and get the thing over, than with slow 
 poisoning. 
 
 10652. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Is there a sufficient 
 number of these cases of chronic and gradual carbon 
 mon-oxide poisoning to warrant you in saying, if you 
 were writing a book on industrial diseases, it was an 
 industrial disease? — Yes, I think so. 
 
 10553. Do you, in your book on industrial diseases, 
 mention these as industrial diseases? — I do not think 
 I do, speaking off-hand, but these cases occurred since 
 that book was published. 
 
 10554. (Dr. Legge.) You have referred to it in your 
 recent article in Rolleston and Allbutt's '■ System of 
 Medicine " ? — I do not remember the particular place. 
 There are two types of poisoning, the acute and the 
 sub-acute, and as you can get either from bi-sulphide 
 of carbon, I do not see why, with a gas like carbon 
 mon-oxide, you should not get the same effects. I do 
 not think there are many cases of slowly produced 
 carbon mon-oxide poisoning. 
 
 10555. Would we be right in saying that it was a 
 very rare thing ? — Very rare. 
 
 10556. And there one must leave it. You know of 
 two cases that you believe to be cases of that kind ? — 
 Yes, there are the two cases that came under my own 
 observation. 
 
 10657. Can you say m those two cases you are abso- 
 lutely certain, or was it surmise only? — I am quite 
 certain, because an analysis of the gases and the 
 symptoms pointed to carbon mon-oxide poisoning. 
 
 10558. Did you examine the blood ?— They were long 
 past the acute stage when I saw them. Carbon mon- 
 oxide is gradually eliminated from the blood and no 
 traces are left, but while that is the case where the 
 blood is concerned, it is not the case so far as the-, 
 nervous system is concerned. 
 
 10559. (Chairman.) What other gases are there- 
 which cause the same symptoms? — You might go on 
 to the gassing in mines, I think, after that — by carbon 
 mon-oxide after colliery explosions, and the gases 
 liberated in the firing of explosives in mines and 
 quarries. 
 
 10560. I am referring to chronic poisoning. You 
 said that carboji mon-oxide was one form of chronic 
 poisoning ; I understand you to say sulphuretted 
 hydrogen was another? — Possibly another, but less 
 likely to be chronic than the other. At any rate we 
 are not so familiar with it. 
 
 10561. Have you come across any cases ?— No, not 
 chronic cases of sulphuretted hydrogen poisoning. 
 
 10562. And coal gas ?— Yes, coal gas amongst work- - 
 men. 
 
 10563. Have you come across any cases of that?— I 
 have had under my care one or two cases amongst men- 
 who have been poisoned whilst mending pipes m the 
 
 10564 Have they been gradually poisoned, or has. 
 it been a sudden gassing?— In some instances rapid. 
 My difficulty about the use of the term sudden is this : 
 In the case of a man who has been working say a_ few 
 hours, going home and becoming sick a few hours 
 afierwards- would you call that sudden ? 
 
 10665 It would depend upon circumstances. If a 
 man was working on a plant in a chemical works, and 
 there was a breakage in some part of that plant, and 
 the man worKing at it had been there some hours and 
 was taken ill, that, I should say, would be an acci- 
 dent • but if the atmosphere in which he was working 
 was the ordinary atmosphere of the place, and there 
 were no special circumstances to constitute it an acci- 
 dent then I should be inclined to say it was a case of 
 disease?— But suppose to-day he had been exposed to 
 that leak, and only had a headache, and went hom-e and 
 vomited, and the next day perhaps was unable to go 
 to work, would you regard that as an accident ! 
 
 10566 Of course it would be for a Court to interpret 
 the meaning of the word accident, but from decisioM 
 
334 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE; 
 
 ifr. T. Oliver, 
 
 M.A., M.D., 
 
 F.R.C.P., 
 
 LL.D. 
 
 22 April 1907. 
 
 that have been given I should be inclined to say that 
 that was an accident? — Quite so. 
 
 10567. (3ir. Cumjnghame.) One must not confuse the 
 two things, the first is the cause and the effect comes 
 afterwards? — Quite so. 
 
 10568. (Chairman.) A man might cut his hand 
 slightly and feel no effects and not even go hocme, but 
 perhaps laitev it might deivelop into some bad disease, 
 yet it would be an accident nevertheless ? — That is so ; 
 then the53 cases would be sudden poisoning. 
 
 10569. You do not find men working constantly in 
 an atmosphere charged to a slight extent with soma 
 deleterious gas wbich in the long run causes them to be 
 taken ill — apart from carbon mon-oxide ? I am speak- 
 ing now of sulphuretted hydrogen and coal gas ? — 
 There I am afraid my answer would be a purely 
 theoretical one. There is no reason why fihey should 
 not. I think it is possible. 
 
 10570. (Br. Legge.) With regard to the two cases you 
 described as having been sent to you by Dr. Stephen- 
 son, are you aware that those men were not gassed so 
 as to be unconscious at their work ? — Yes. 
 
 10571. On the other hand they may have inhaled gas 
 day after day ; their appearances became altered, and 
 then they had finally to go off work without any un- 
 consciousness having supervened ? — Yes, coming, there- 
 fore, under the type of chronic poisoning. 
 
 10572. (Chairman.) Were these two men employed 
 ^t the same works? — Yes. 
 
 10573. And at the same processes ? — Yes. 
 
 10574. (Dr. Legge.) Do you know if there were any 
 •other cases ? — I do not remember ; I think not. 
 
 10575. Apart from the question of cases like those, 
 do you recognise sequelae in acute cases of poisoning 
 from C.O. where there has been unconsciousness, which 
 may develop perhaps a week or a month later. Take, 
 for instance, dementia following the inhalation of car- 
 bonic oxide, that might lead to difficulty if it were not 
 scheduled as a disease, might it not ? — It would. That 
 would come under the sudden condition, would it not ? 
 
 10576. But it might be very difficult to prove that 
 dementia occurring a month after the unconsciousness 
 was the result of the accident if it were not put down 
 -as a disease with definite sequelse ? — ^Yes, I think you 
 must have a distinct connection shown between the two 
 things. 
 
 10577. (Chairman.) The next point you mentioned 
 was eczema in laundries ; to what is that due ? — I re- 
 member when sitting on the Dangerous Trades Com- 
 mittee, Mr. Morris drew attention to the fact that in 
 London there was a very large percentage of women 
 who attended one of the Metropolitan Skin Hospitals 
 suffering from eczema and cracked hands as the result 
 of the strong alkalis which were used for washing and, 
 I presume, bleaching purposes. 
 
 10578. Have you come across any case of that kind 
 in your own experience ? — I have not seen any serious 
 form of washerwoman's eczema. 
 
 10579. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you think there would 
 be many among out patients at the hospital ? — ^No', we 
 have not much of it in Newcastle. It was Mr. Morris 
 who drew our attention to it and spoke most forcibly 
 about it. He said it was a most painful condition of 
 things, and that these women were unable to earn their 
 living in consequence. 
 
 10580. (Chairman.) Do you know precisely what 
 chemical it is that causes this ailment ? — I do not, 
 unless it is the soda. I do not know what the composi- 
 tion of bleaching powder is — chloride of lime, prob- 
 ably. 
 
 10581. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Upon that would you 
 present that case at present as a sufficiently well 
 recognised one to be included in the schedule? — ^Not 
 from my own knowledge. If you had time to look up 
 the report of the Dangerous Trades Committae you 
 might find the subject mentioned there. 
 
 10582. (Dr. Legge.) It would be exactly the same 
 eczema as you get in dye works' ; the erosions of the 
 skin from the use of strong caustic solutions, I sup- 
 pose ? — Yes. One does not know really how far to call 
 it eczema or simply a painful cracking of the skin. 
 
 10583. (Chairman.) It would be a dermatitis, would 
 it? — Undoubtedly, but of a painful character, and 
 rendering the patient unfit for work. 
 
 10584. Then infection amongst laundresses from 
 
 linen belonging to persons who have been suffering 
 from disease is analogous to the question, is it not, 
 of compensation to nurses? — ^Yos. 
 
 10585. Should you say that a laundress who con- 
 tracts smallpox through washing infected linen got 
 ill through an accident? — Yes. 
 
 10586. In that case the question would be outside 
 the purview of this Committee, because it would be 
 already included in the Act. As to diseases contracted 
 by slaughterers in their occupation, what have you in 
 mind ? — If a man striking a bullock on the head, and 
 in some way or other the blow missed, that would be 
 an accident. Suppose in handling the hides of am 
 infected animal he got blood-poisoning, that would be 
 an accident, too, I take it, and that would be pro- 
 vided for. That was my idea in mentioning the 
 matter. 
 
 10587. Then you mentioned disease contracted from 
 ponies in a pit, which had been brought to your notice 
 recently. What were the men suffering from? — One 
 of them at least died from pneumonia. 
 
 10588. Do you think it was a case of glanders?— We 
 tried to get the micro-organism, but we failed ; but ' 
 I still think it was a disease oontraicted from animals. 
 
 10589. If it were not glanders, what do you think it 
 could have been? — ^I do not know what else it could 
 have besn. 
 
 10590. Were both the men employed in the same 
 pit ? — Yes, 1 believe they were. 
 
 10591. And subject to the same infection? — And 
 subject to the same infection. The disease was so bad- 
 in the pit, that I believe they had to- destroy 30 or 40 
 ponies. The only way they got rid of the disease was 
 lay killing all the suspected animals. 
 
 10592. Was any other theory advanced by anyone 
 besides glanders? — ^No. What struck me and the 
 veterinary surgeon who gave us the diagnosis was the 
 relationship of the two ; the men looking after these 
 animals becoming ill and dying from an illness that 
 was not pure pneumonia for there were large glandular 
 swellings. 
 
 10593. (Professor Allbutt.) When you speak' of the 
 tests for the glanders bacillus, are you speaking of 
 it as being applied to the animals as well as to the 
 men, or only to the men ? — I did not see the ponies ; 
 I do not know what tests the veterinary surgeons em- 
 ployed. We tried the blood of one of the men but 
 found nothing, 
 
 10594. (Chairman.) If the Committee were to 
 schedule glanders as one of the diseases under the Act 
 that is all we could do in such a case as that, is it not? 
 — You do it with anthrax now, so that it is already, 
 provided for ; but I think in doing so you confine it 
 to particular trades, such as the wool trade. 
 
 10595. No, that is in regard to putting the burden, 
 of proof on the employer ? — In the cases I have referred 
 to there is direct contact from thei animal to man in a 
 place where, perhaps, no one expected to find it, viz., 
 a coal mine. 
 
 10596. My point is this : Supposis glanders as a 
 disease were added to the schedule, then the men could 
 have claimed foo' glanders ; in any other event they 
 could have clairiied for nothing f- — Is it wise to simply 
 call it glanders ?l I do^ not know what other infectious 
 disease hoaises may suffer from. There must be othieirs'. 
 
 10597. That is what we are asking you? — I know, 
 but I cannot give you any name for the diseases in 
 question, because the blood showed nothing definite. 
 
 10598. Wers the ponies suffering from glanders? — 
 From a disease akin to glanders. Several of the horses 
 died and oifchers had to be killed. I do not know 
 whether Dr. Legge could suggest any other name than 
 glanders. 
 
 10599. The next point you mentioned was injury 
 to the eyesight, due to electric welding. What form 
 does that injury take? — It affects th3 eyesight the 
 same as a bright electric light. 
 
 10600. Does it incapacitate men from working? — 
 Yes, it might set up inflammation. 
 
 10601. Have you had any cases of it, to your know- 
 ledge ? — No, but there have teen cases in Newcastle. 
 
 10602. Is it easy to connect the injury to the eye- 
 sight with the process?' — ^Yes, I think so. 
 
 10603. Do you know whether there have been many 
 
DEPAKTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 335 
 
 cases ?— I should think about Sheffield there have been 
 probably more than in our neighbourhood. 
 
 10604. Is not it the case that the men engaged in 
 those processes are very careful to wear glasses, which 
 would prevent their suffering ?— Yes, and where it is 
 done there is vei^^ little likelihood of the eye ailiction 
 alluded to taking place. 
 
 10605. Have you ever heard or known of a case in 
 which it has occurr3d where the men were wearing 
 protectors ? — 'No. 
 
 10606 (Professor Allbutt.) To the bast of your know- 
 ledge, can they work with the same advantage with 
 glasses on ? — I think so. 
 
 10607. (Dr. Legge.) What particular part of the 
 eye is affected? — Neuro-retinitis. 
 
 10608. Does that usually end in recover;-, ot have 
 you known cases of permanent optic atix>phy? — I 
 cannot call to mind any permanent case of optic 
 atrophy, only blindness for some time. 
 
 10609-10. It would be akin to tobacco amblyopia, 
 would it? — Hardly. 
 
 10611. (Chairman.) As to the effect of electricity on 
 the skin, what injury is caused ? — You may have der- 
 matitis ; and where electricity is used in manufacture 
 for bringing about the decomposition of 03rtain solu- 
 tions you sometimes, get dermatitis. 
 
 10612. Is it due to the electricity, or isi it due to the 
 solution ? — Probably to both. The electricity itself 
 may cause bums on the skin ; the nascent conditions 
 created in the solution probably may have some effect. 
 
 10613. Do you have many cases of dermatitis from 
 electricity where no solutions that might themselves 
 cause the injury, are present? Is it possible toi isolate 
 the electricity as the cause of the dermatitis from the 
 
 .solutions? — I think so, because one sees tremendous 
 burns following the use of elejjtricity ; it is" therefore 
 a question of degree. 
 
 10614. The burns would be accidents, would they 
 not? — So would these minor forms of injury, I 
 consider. 
 
 10615. Then is it your view that the workers suffer 
 from a series of small burns from electricity which 
 facilitates dermatitis being caused by the solutions ? — 
 It is rather difficult to put it in those words, I think. 
 
 10616. (Professor Allbutt.) We know, I think, 
 the effect upon the ha.nds of workers with using X 
 Rays. If not protected, they suffer serious injury to 
 the skin. That would be an instance of pure electric 
 action on the hands, would it not? — Yes, that is the 
 kind of thing I mean : there is an acute inflammatory 
 affection of the skin, not necessarily such a destruction 
 of the skin as to cause a sore. 
 
 10617. (Chairman.) Does it cause incapacity amongst 
 workpeople and prevent them working? — ^For a time 
 I should think it would. 
 
 10618. Have you had any cases under your own ob- 
 servation ? — ^No ; I have only had experience of the 
 bad effects from burning by electricity. 
 
 10619. You have had no experience of the derma- 
 titis ?— No. 
 
 10620. Whsre have these cases occurred? — I cannot 
 tell you exactly. 
 
 10621. They are not mentioned in your book on 
 Dangerous Trades are they ? — No, I do not think they 
 are, but it is common in France ; in many oi the 
 chemical factories there it occurs, where electricity is 
 used to ibreak up solutions, and the men suffer from 
 very severe fo,rms of dermatitis. 
 
 10622. Would you expect it to occur in our chemical 
 centres, such as St. Helens and Widnes?— I do not 
 think they use the processes there. 
 
 10623. Do you know anywhere else in England 
 Where they are used ? — No, I do not. 
 
 10624. (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do you know anything 
 about electro-platers?— No. I have only casually seen 
 the men vrorking. 
 
 10625. (Dr. Legge.) Do you include the effect of the 
 Eontgen Rays under this heading of electricity ; do 
 you regard it as a dermatitis ?^You get the best iUus- 
 fttttion, perhaps, from that. 
 
 M626. Tilers is a considerable increasing industry 
 
 I have Mr. T. Oliver, 
 
 M.A., M.D., 
 
 F.R C.P., 
 
 LL.D. 
 
 fnow, is there not, in connection with it?— That 
 no experience of. 
 
 10527. I have read about what you speak of as oc- 
 curring in France, but I have no knowledge of it in 
 this country ?— Quite so. 22 April 1907. 
 
 10628. (Chairman.) With reference to the question of 
 
 rupture of the valve of the heart, do you know of any 
 
 cases where that might occur not at a given moment, 
 but as the result of more or less continuous employ- 
 ment ?— Yes. Professor Allbutt was one of the first in 
 this country to draw attention to the fact of the de- 
 velopment of such a disease as the result of prolonged 
 strain. What was' in, my mind was rather acute rup- 
 ture. 
 
 10629. That, of course, would be an accident, would 
 it not? — That would be an accident under this Act. 
 I have seen a few oases of acute rupture of the aortic 
 valve in men who had been lifting a load rather Sud- 
 denly, or carrying a heavy weight, and at the post- 
 mortem examinatioin only one segment of the valve 
 has been found to be miptured and the other segment 
 is healthy. That was the acute rupture of the aortic 
 valve to which I referred. 
 
 10630 (Professor Allbutt.) The difficulty is, is it not, 
 in applying it in particular instances ? — Yes. I do not 
 think it can be regarded as moi^e than presumably an 
 acute rupture, and therefore traumatic, unless you 
 have complete evidence that previous to the accident 
 the man's heart was known to be quite healthy. 
 
 10631. (Chairman.) With reference to the question 
 of naphtha poisoning in indiarubber works, there is a 
 reference in your book on Dangerous Trades, in an 
 article I think from your own pen, to malaise and 
 ansemia, and so' on, caused by najphtha poisoning : 
 Have you any knowledge of persons being incapaci- 
 tated from vrork for more than a week by being so 
 affected in indiarubber factories? — ^No, not from 
 naphtha, but the inconvenience caused by it is very 
 great in some instances. 
 
 10632. That is a question of ventilation, is it not? — 
 Ventilation, and I suppose predisposition and idio- 
 syncrasy in some people. 
 
 10633. But you do not find them incapacitated from 
 work for a week or more and then going back to their 
 employment ? — No. 
 
 10634. Therefore, it could not be a subject for com- 
 pensation under this Act, because compensation is only 
 payable when the workman is incapacitated? — I have 
 not seen cases which would last more than a day or 
 two. 
 
 10635. Have you ever, in your experience, come 
 across any case of anthracosis in which the disease was 
 clearly due to irritation of the lungs by ooal dust? — 
 Might I ask vdiether you intend to go beyond coal ? 
 
 10636. Not in this question? — Yes, but not within 
 recent years. 
 
 10637. When? — Twenty years ago we saw miners' 
 phthisis occasionally. 
 
 10638. Among coal miners ? — Yes, among coal 
 miners. 
 
 10639. Were they miners who were working in clean 
 seams of coal, or coal which required the excavation of 
 rock in order to' be able tO' get it? — At this distance- 
 of time one could scarcely answer that question except 
 from a knowledge of the coal strata that were being 
 worked then and now. The Northumberland ooal is a 
 hard coal, and therefore doss contain a good deal of 
 stony grit, and it was presumably the grit and not the 
 coal that was the cause of the pifithisis ; but with im- 
 provement in ventilation in the Northumberland pits- 
 anthiraoosis has. practically disappeared from Newcastle. 
 
 10640. You say "practically." Have you come 
 across any cases in recent years ? — Yes, we get now and 
 again a post-mortem examination upon an old miner 
 wihas© lungs are quite anthraoosed, but not in young 
 miners. 
 
 10641. With regard to fibrosis generally we have had 
 so very much expert medical evidence that perhaps it 
 is only necessary for me to put to you the result of it, . 
 which is that if the history of the case is kno-wn, and 
 the man's employment and other elements are known, 
 it is possible for an expert to distinguish during life 
 fibrous from tubercular phthisis. Do you agree with 
 that? — ^If the fibrosis is unaccompanied with tubercu- 
 lar affection possibly. 
 
336 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 F.R.C.P., 
 LL D. 
 
 22 April 1907. 
 
 Mr- T. Oliver, 10642. Do you think if the fibrosis is known to have 
 M.A., M.D., existed for some time and tuberculosis supervenes the 
 disease should be taken out of the category of fibrous 
 cases and put into the tuberculous. ?— Not necessarily. 
 
 10643. From the point of view of workmen's com- 
 pensation, if it were proved that the man had had 
 fibrosis for some time, and that the fibrosis was due to 
 his employment, it might be right to require the em- 
 ployer to pay compensation, even thou^ the man ulti- 
 mately died through the supervention of tuberculosis? 
 —-Yes, but that is a subject I think upon which you 
 will have to be extremely careful. There would be 
 great risk in regarding many of these oases as fibTX>sis 
 when they are really not fibrotic a.t all. To begin 
 with, you would have to know something of the charac- 
 ter of the strata in which the man was working, some- 
 thing of his antecedents and previous illnesses. 
 
 10644. I was not thinking so much of coal miners' 
 pbtbisis as of ganisiter miners' phthisis, potters' 
 phthisis, stonemasons' pihthisis, and grinders' phthisis ? 
 — There you are dealing with dusty trades that un- 
 doubtedly do cause fibrosis of the lungs — ^the same 
 with tin mining and the gold mining of the Transvaal. 
 There yoTi have the true causes, but I do not think you 
 have them in coal as coal. 
 
 10645. In those other trades do you think it would 
 be possible for an expert medioal man, knowing the 
 history of a case, to say : " This is a case of lung dis- 
 ease due to the employment " ? — I think he could to a 
 very great extent, because the illness is quite different. 
 
 10646. A man may be suflFering for some years from 
 ■preluninary symptoms before it can be defi-nitely said 
 his disease is fibrosis, I suppose? — ^Yes. 
 
 10647. Suppose fibrosis of the lungs were made a 
 subject for workmen's compensation, have you con- 
 sidered what would be the position of the work-people 
 who suffered from those preliminary symptoms? Sup- 
 posing an employer was obligied to pay his workman 
 
 • compensation if he got fibrosis, and has in his employ 
 
 • one or two men who siufier each winter from bronchitis, 
 which may or may not developi into fibrosis, doi ycoi 
 •consider there is a real danger that such men would 
 lose their employment and at the same time not be 
 able to claim compensation because the fibrosis had 
 not yet become patent? — ^Yes. I do not' think you 
 
 •could absolutely make the diagnosis of fibrosis during 
 the early stages at all ; it might be suspected. 
 
 10648. And you might feel sure that the illness 
 •might develop later intO' fibrosis, I suptpose? — If 
 .you knew the history and the atmosphere in which 
 the man v?as working. 
 
 10649. But there would probably be many men now 
 e.mployed in ganister mines, or as stonemasons, or in 
 other trades, who each winter have attacks more or 
 less severe of bronchitis which might develop in the 
 course of time into fibrosis, but which, on the other 
 hand, might not ; do you think it possible to say 
 in the case of those men whether it will develop into 
 fibrosis or not? — It is not possible. 
 
 10650. Therefore, it would be impossible for them 
 to claim compensation for fibrosis, or its preliminary 
 symptoms? — I think so. 
 
 10651. On the other hand, the employer would know 
 if it did develop into fibrosis he would be iliable to pay 
 oompensation if the Home Secretary sohiedules it?' — 
 Yes. 
 
 10652. In those circumstances, do you think it would 
 "be to the interest of the work people to schedule 
 fibrosis ; do you think they would gain more or lose 
 more ? — In North Country mining districts, away from 
 the ganister mines, it would be no gain to> them at 
 all. 
 
 10653. I am considering the trades which I have 
 mentioned — ganister mining, tin mining, grinding, and 
 stonemasons'' and potters' work. What do' you 
 say, the point being the wholesale dismissal of 
 suspected men ? — That is a vary seriousi question 
 to give an answer to, because theire are so 
 many things leading up to bronohitis. I do 
 not think you can deal with it just in that general 
 way. The fibrosisi of the lungs in a gold miner is 
 typically developed and is quite a different thing from 
 what the ordinary practitioner sees amongst miners 
 generally. It is not the same thing at all, and there 
 is very little bronchitis accompanying it. The symp- 
 toms are so different, the man is short of breath, he 
 has sometimes no physical signs, and one is struck 
 with the great disparity between the absence of physi- 
 cal signs or the comparative fewness of the physical 
 
 signs and the amount of difficulty in breathing and 
 distress. 
 
 10654. Still there is a stage, is there not, in the 
 development of the disease when its symptoms are not 
 characteristic ? — In the early stages particularly. 
 
 10655. That is the stage in which possible danger to 
 the workmen may be not a physical danger, but an 
 economic danger of losing his employment for fear, on 
 the part of the employer, of his being made a charge 
 upon him for the rest of his life for compensation for 
 fibrosis. Have you considered, speaking as you do 
 with great expert authority on the question of 
 industrial diseases, whether it would be more in 
 the interests of the working classes in those 
 trades which are likely to develop fibrosis to schedule 
 this disease or not to schedule it? — I do not know 
 how to reply to that question on the spur of the 
 moment. It is a very difficult pToblem, and requires 
 careful conisideration. If you took men away from 
 their work at that particular stage, I do not know that 
 you would have any guarantee that you would check 
 the fibrosis^ — the thing may be deeper than th»5 bron- 
 chitis would lead you to infer, and the damage may be 
 al>ready well on the way. It may have been inflicted, 
 and you would have the changes following. It would 
 be a hardship, I think, in many instances, to simply 
 dismiss a person becaiuse he ha.s bronohitis, and yet, on 
 the other hand, there is no doubt that bronchitis is one 
 of the first conditions noticed, not necessarily with ex- 
 pectoration, because it is not accompanied by expec- 
 toration sometimes at all. I really could not say which 
 would be the better thing to do for these people, 
 whether to schedule it or not. You will have a great 
 many people thrown out of employment, and what are 
 they to do, because so many trades are dusty. 
 
 10656. (Dr. Legge.) Assuming that the disease was 
 to be scheduled, do you think it would be right to 
 exclude from the employer's respoilsibility all the cases 
 of phthisis that occurred within the reasonable time 
 that fibrosis usually takes to develop — say fifteen 
 years? — But fibrosis does not take fifteen years to 
 develop!. 
 
 10657. I am leaving out of question tin miners. In 
 tin miners and Transvaal miners it is quickest of all, 
 but with the stonemason, ithe Sheffield grinder, and 
 the ganister miner it is certainly not less than ten 
 years. Assuming that fibrosis was to be scheduled, 
 would it be fair to exclude all eases of death from 
 phthisis, or incapacitating illness from phthisis, which 
 developed under say ten to fifteen years of employment 
 in the trade T — You see the term " phthisis " is such a 
 big one. There can be included so much under it 
 
 10658. If it were scheduled, would not it be likely 
 that the claims would be made in every case of phthisis 
 that occurred ? — I am sure they would, and that is why 
 I hesitate to answer too readily your question. I think 
 it would give rise to a very great deal of litigation. 
 With the tin miner and the gold miner probably there 
 would be no difficulty, smd in the ganister miner, too, 
 I take it there may be some difficulty as compared 
 with the tin miner, but the coal miners I woidd ex- 
 clude altogether, since in them fibrosis can scarcely 
 be said to occur. 
 
 10659. Would you exclude the stonemason?— One 
 knows that stonemasons' phthisis is well named. The 
 name itself conveys the belief we have about it and 
 its relation to the trade, yet while the individual is 
 working in the open air he gets the disease. 
 
 10660. The employer is responsible for the fibrosis, 
 but he. is not responsible for the tubercle bacillus, 
 which is the cause of death or incapacity, is he ? — That 
 is so. _ Some of these caws of fibrosis are fibrotic from 
 beginning to end, and not tuberculous. 
 
 10661. That I admit ; but in the majority of cases 
 in the stone mason and in the grinder it is the 
 tubercle bacillus grafted on to the fibrosis which kills, 
 and consequently the employer is not so much re- 
 sponsible for the tubercle bacillus and the fatal or 
 incapacitating results?— No, only you ara goirnr to 
 make him responsible for dust conditions in other 
 trades, m which tubercle may be associated with the 
 dust. 
 
 10662. If you are going to include the supervention 
 of tubercle bacillus amongst his responsibiUties, ought 
 not you to relieve him of something at the other end? 
 —If you have already made him responsible for the 
 fabrosis. It does not matter whether the tubercle super- 
 venes or not— you have made him responsible, and it 
 is the fibrosis that comes first- 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 337 
 
 his tS^^ =?T^^-) " ^ nian contracts fibrosis in 
 tubercl^K^.tn*^ ^'^ ^« I'^ng has been injured the 
 man t ^^''^ll^^.fi?ds a nidus, and ultimately kills the 
 fibr^;,-. .r f ^'^]^ *o say whether the man died of 
 .^1.2 tuberculosis ? In that parti<>ular case oould 
 aj^yone say?-.Yes I think you might, because the 
 Illness was, up to a certain stage, purely fibrotic, and 
 rt tnen takes on a distinctly tuberculous character. 
 Xou can suspect the transformation of the one to the 
 other. 
 
 10664. As being the cause of death ?— There are the 
 two diseases co-existing. It is not always easy to say 
 how much is due to the one, and how much to the 
 other. 
 
 10665. That is what I ask. Can anyone say which 
 disease the man died of, or which diseaise was responsi- 
 ble for his death?— I think one would go the length 
 of saying, in the case of a disease which was grafted 
 on to another that up to that time had only been 
 slowly impairing life, that when the patient became 
 rapidly worse and emaciated quickly death would b- 
 probably due to tubercular disease. 
 
 10666. Do you think people who have fibrosis are 
 more liable to contract tuberculosis than other people ? 
 —No, not necessarily. It does not offer easier access 
 to the tubercle bacillus ; but that is only my opinion. 
 
 10667. (Professor Allbutt.) I do not think it makes 
 any very great practical difference in the particular 
 case whether a man has the tubercle or not at the 
 later stages ?— Quite so, he goes down much the same. 
 
 10668. (Mr. Cunynghame.) And a post-mortem 
 examination, m spite of the tubercle, would show the 
 fibrosis, and even the dust probably ?— -Yes, you would 
 find the dust in the lung. 
 
 10669. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you think it makes 
 any great practical difference in the evolution of the 
 case whether in later stages an accession of tubercle 
 had taken place '—Nothing more than that it hastens 
 death. 
 
 10670. (Chairman.) There is another point I should 
 like to put in connection with fibrosis. Do you con- 
 sider that slate dust is a cause of it ? — Yes, in Trance 
 particularly so, not so much in this country. 
 
 10671. Do you think that slate particles are a lung 
 irritant ?— Yes. ^ 
 
 _ 10672. Less irritating, however, than ganister par- 
 ticles, should you say ? — I do not think there is really 
 much difference between the two. 
 
 10673. Do you think whatever is said with regard to 
 fibrosis due to ganister should be said also with regard 
 to fibrosis due to slate ? — I think so. 
 
 10674. But coal dust, on the other hand, is much 
 less of an irritant, is it? — ^Yes, and the more so the 
 freer from stony particles — soft coal is' wonderfully 
 free from risk. 
 
 10675. I should like to ask you whether you are of 
 opinion that cataract is a trade disease in the case of 
 oottle finishers? — I think it is over-rated. They do 
 get it, but not to the extent we have been led to infer. 
 
 10676. We had some figures from the Yorkshire 
 Bottle-Makers' Trade Union that, out of 114 cases of 
 men on their superannuation fund, 33 came on to the 
 fund owing to cataract, and a number of others, 13 or 14 
 owing to other eye diseases. Should you consider that 
 a large percentage? — It is a larger percentage than I 
 was aware of, and after ihat information, if supplied 
 from medical sources, I should certainly say it ought 
 to be scheduled. 
 
 10677. If those figures are representative of the 
 incidence of the disease, you think it should be 
 scheduled. In any given case of cataract would it be 
 possible to say whether or not the disease was due to 
 the industry ? — I think it probably would if you knew 
 how the men worked at the furnace. It is generally 
 said that it occurs in the eye which is nearer the 
 furnace. 
 
 10578. But cataract exists amoaigst all classes of the 
 population, does it not ? Anyone might suffer from it 
 ivho has not the remotest connection with bottle 
 Baking ? — Quite so. 
 
 10679. There is a certain peroantage of persons in 
 llhe general population who suffer from cataract, and 
 ;he same percentage one would expect to find amongst 
 >ottIe makers. Is it fair to ask th« employers to com- 
 pensate aU the bottle makers who suffer from cataract 
 
 419 
 
 w'J %^rt^i^ percentage would have suffered any- j/, y g,- 
 
 how?-But you do that as regards all the otbar trades, m a m D 
 .}^f' ^°' '^e'=«use there is always a distinctive fr'cp.,' 
 
 symptom. There is nothing scheduled which cannot ^l.d. 
 
 m the particular case be distinguished as being due 2''A^ririqn7 
 
 to the trad3?_That is a point on which I should like P"'^^"^' 
 to iiave the opinion of a man like Mr. Snell and 
 other oculists. 
 
 10681. The oculists' evidence is a little bit contra- 
 dictory Dr. Robinson was of opinion that the symp- 
 toms shown were different from those of ordinary 
 cataract, while Mr. Snell took the opposite view?— I 
 have no opinion upon that question that would be of 
 any assistance to you. 
 
 10682. There is another question I should like to 
 ask you. Have you come across cases of sprained 
 wrist among miners, due to causes other than accident, 
 due to prolonged working in hard coal?— It do.3s occur. 
 You are not referring now to beat hand, but to a 
 sprain itself? 
 
 10683. Yes, a sprain or strain?— Yes, it does occur, 
 but I have no experience of it. I know that it is com- 
 plained of. 
 
 10684. (Mr. Cunynghame.) You instanced a school 
 teacher getting an illness from a defective drain at a 
 school. With regard to that, would you call that a 
 disease ; it is a disease due to the employment, is it 
 not?— Yes. 
 
 10685. But it is not a disease due to the " nature 
 of the employment," which are the words of the Act, 
 is it ? — It has nothing to do with teaching. 
 
 10686. The words are "disease due to the nature of 
 the employment." The nature of the employment is 
 teaching, is it not ? — Yes, but I thought the words were 
 " in or during the course of the employment." 
 
 10687. (Chairman.) Those are the words that govern 
 cases of accident? — Fever would be an accident occur- 
 ring in the course of, but not due to the nature of, the 
 employment. 
 
 10688. (Dr. Legge.) Do you consider that du.st, 
 apart from creating fibrosis, can develop simple chronic 
 bronchitis ? — ^Yes, undoubtedly. 
 
 10689. In your opinion, is there the same claim to 
 schedule chronic bronchitis as there is tO' schedule 
 fibrosis ? Is it possible to distinguish chronic bron- 
 chitis due to dust from chronic bronchitis the result 
 of other causes ? — I think, in the case of bronchitis, 
 due to dust, the probability is that the patient would 
 expectorate a great deal of dust in his sputum, whereas; 
 in ordinary bronchitis there would be nothing like that. 
 
 10690. Would you make that the test? — ^I do not see- 
 what other test really you have, unless it be an inti- 
 mate knowledge of the occupation. 
 
 10591. In what industry does it occur? — You have 
 it in flour milling and slag crushing, and trades of^ 
 that particular type — dusty trades. 
 
 10692. Have you seen basic slag pneumonia ? — I 
 have seen the lungs of a patient who died from pneu-- 
 monia during the Middlesbrough epidemic, and which 
 was thought to be due to basic slag work. I have only - 
 seen bronchitis in slag workers and not pneumonia. 
 
 10693. (Chairman.) If a person working in a dusty 
 trade got bronchitis, not from the trade, but as any- 
 one else might do, would you find dust in the sputum ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 10694. Therefore, in that particular case, you might 
 be misled if you said the bronchitis was due to tha- 
 trade ? — You might. 
 
 10695. He might have got bronchitis just as hiir 
 brother living in the same house might get it, due to - 
 susceptibility and exposure to draughts or cold? — 
 Yes. I do not think the latter would have so much 
 of the dust ; it is a question of degree. I do not know 
 of any other test that you could apply except examina- 
 tion of the sputum. Each form might tend to become- 
 chronic and be unattended by rise of temperature. 
 
 10696. And that might be misleading? — It might 
 be, but I think that is the only test you could apply 
 with the history of the patient. 
 
 10697. I suppose in Newcastle there are a number 
 of people who suffer from bronchitis from time to time„ 
 las in every other town? — Yes, we have our share. 
 
 10698. And there are a number of people in New- 
 
 2 U 
 
S38 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. T. outer, 
 
 M.A., M I!., 
 
 F. E.C.I'., 
 
 LL.D. 
 
 -22 April 1907. 
 
 castle, are there not, who are employed in dusty 
 trades ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10699. If you saw a man in hospital suffering from 
 a bad attack of bronchitis, and knew that he was 
 
 , engaged in a dusty trade, could you undertake to say, 
 " Ihis man's disease is due to his employment, and if 
 he claims in the county court I am prepared to say it 
 is due to his trade " ? — Personally I should hesitate. 
 
 10700. In tho great majority of cases it would be 
 too uncertain to enable anyone to say ? — I think so, 
 and it would lead' to any amount of deceit and litiga- 
 tion. I would not suggest bronchitis being scheduled, 
 as I think it would be a most difB.cult thing to deal 
 with. 
 
 10701. (Professor Allhidt.) Do you consider that 
 from the point of view of medical diagnosis the 
 existence of fibrosis of the lungs due to dust is suffi- 
 ciently definite to be placed in the schedule as an in- 
 dustrial disease? — No, not in the early stages, cer- 
 tainly. 
 
 10702. But supposing a man has got to a stage of 
 incapacity? — There, again, we are met with the ques- 
 tion of what is incapacity, because some w'ho have the 
 illness go on working, others give in and would p.ro- 
 bably give in if they knew there was a chance of com- 
 pensation ; it would, no doubt, be a very great boon 
 to people if they did give up their work and received 
 compensation, for, although it might not altogether 
 check the extension of the disease, these persons would 
 certainly live longer if they could get into other em- 
 ployment. But I do not think you can always diagnose 
 fibrosis in the earliest stage. Both lungs ultimately 
 become affected. 
 
 10703. I was inquiring as to positive incapacity? — 
 It is the shortness of breath which incapacitates, and 
 yet th'3,re may be very few physical signs. In the deep 
 mines in the Transvaal the mining authorities do not 
 attach much importance to dust as the cause of fibrosis ; 
 they rather regard a good deal of the incapacity as the 
 result of gassing ; others, again, as the result of pul- 
 monary conditions consequent upon coming suddenly 
 from the depths of the mine, which is hot, to the 
 cool surface and the great change of temperature. The 
 pulmonary condition is not considered by them fibrosis, 
 tut the medical men do consider it fibrosis. I have 
 always regarded it as fibrosis. 
 
 10704. You disagree with them and think they are 
 wrong ? — Yes, but I must say I think if fibrosis of the 
 lung is scheduled you will have very great difficulty ; 
 it will give rise to a greiat amount of litigation and 
 fraud, and medical men are, not all able to distinguish 
 the on© form of lung disease from the other ; and even 
 at a post-ijiortem examination, if there is the slightest 
 excess of fibrous thickening, which, for example, might 
 be due to syphilis, they might succeed in getting the 
 compensation, though it would not be right .Is the 
 Committee dealing with caisson disease, for I see this 
 is included in the list the Secretary was good enough 
 to send me? 
 
 10705. (Chairman.) We are quite clear on that. I 
 suppose you have no negative evidence to give us? — 
 No, except that I do not know on what 'lines you are 
 going. I mean that the causes of the malady are not 
 
 ' quite clear. Decompression is certainly a cause of the 
 illness, but it is not the sole cause in every instance. 
 
 10706. If we were to schedule such a term as this : 
 "" Compressed air illness and its sequelae," and give 
 ■compensation to persons working in compressed air, 
 ■would not it cover it? — Yes. 
 
 10707. It would include any worker employed in 
 compressed air, and the illness comes from the com- 
 pression of the air, does it not? — Compression slowly 
 induced does not cause any symptom. Then, might I 
 ask in regard to pitch cancer and coal oil, we had, as 
 you probably know, two or three cases, one of which 
 -was taken to the county court — a man who had to have 
 
 his arm removed above the elbow for cancer, due to 
 manipulating coal oil in what they call grease making. 
 Ther? is not the least doubt that the frequent exposure 
 to the hot oil sets up first a series of warts and then 
 •sometimes ulceration. These ulcers heal or do not heal 
 — some may and others do not ; ultimately the thing 
 :may break out, and you have a large ulcer, which gee's 
 .down to the bone and is microscopically proved to be 
 
 tar preparations. You will remember somie time ago, 
 no doubt, when I wrote certain articles for your 
 " System of Medicine," Professor AUbutt, you drew 
 my attention to arsenic as applied to the skin. I 
 examined this coal oil for arsenic, but there was no 
 arsenic in it, so that the cancer was not due to arsenic. 
 10700. (Dr. Legge.) By coal oil, do you mean petro- 
 leum? — No, it is a crude oil. 
 
 10710. Do you think it would be included, for in- 
 stance, in such a heading as " epitheliomatous cancer 
 or ulceration of the skin produced by pitch " ? — Would 
 pitch :be a sufficiently wide term, do you think ? 
 
 10711. Do you think one ought to add ''or tiar"? — 
 I think that pitch alone would not cover it. 
 
 10712. On the other hand, to leave it simply to 
 such words as " epitheliomatous caiicer or ulceration 
 of the skin " would be too wide ; you wOuld have to 
 define something which gave rise to the condition, 
 would you not? — I should think "certain tar pro- 
 ducts " would do. 
 
 10713. (Chairman.) What are the products used for? 
 ^I think tliey are usei for lubrication purposes. I 
 have seen three oases in one of which a man lost his 
 arm. In giving his verdict against the claimaint for 
 the loss 'of his arm, the Judge made the remark, " Had 
 this case came before me a month or two later when 
 the Act had come into force, the man would have got 
 compensation," but it was ruled not to be an accident 
 in the ordinary sense of the word. 
 
 10714. There is/ lanotiher simall matter. In lyour 
 book thepe is a reference to a complaint called " Stamp 
 lickers' tongue." Is that a form of ulceration of the 
 tongue ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10715. And it also ext.&nds to the palate, does it 
 not?— Yes. ' 
 
 10716. To wliat is that attributable ?.--I think it. is 
 due to an abrasion of, the skin, and poisonous matter 
 or chemicals on the stamps. 
 
 10717. Have you known oases occur recently? — ^No; 
 I think the malady was cleared out after the Dan- ' 
 gerous Trades Committee dealt with it. 
 
 10718. In your opinion, it does not exist now?— ^ 
 I do not think it calls for any special mention, although' 
 it might. Most of tiie factories got mechanical licikers ' 
 after that. They saw ait onoe it was a nasty process. 
 
 10719. And so far as you are aware, the disease has 
 disappeared, has it? — I think so. 
 
 10720. Do you know what particular dhemical it 
 was due to 1 — No, it might, of oouirse, . be due to the 
 gum being prepared with unhealthy water, or it might 
 be due to dye ofithe label itself. " " 
 
 10721. Did it incapacitate workers from being em- 
 ployed focr a period of a week or more? — Yes, but they 
 were all young girls. Some developed large glands 
 in consequence of it. 
 
 10722. And it incapacitated them?— Yes, I think 
 some would be off probably for weeks, but I had not 
 the opportunity of following up the cases. 
 
 , 10723. (Dr.. JLegge.) What you are saying rather points 
 to the necessity of scheduling some such words a& . 
 " ulceration of the skin and niucous membrane pro- 
 duced by chemical action," does it not? — ^ Yes, as you 
 put it, I think, it would be a very good thing. 
 
 10724. Some comprehensive term for these eczemas 
 and ulcerations of the mouth would be advisable'?—' 
 Yes. 
 
 10725. Do you recognise ptoisoening from nitrous 
 fumes which would not be regarded as an accident even 
 although the symptoms usually come on 24 hours 
 afterwards ; they are so definitely traceable, are they' 
 not, as a rule? — I think one must do so. 
 
 10726. Have you any special industry in your mind ? 
 — Not so much an industry as the effects of a chemical 
 fire, where the men who were putting out the fire ulti- 
 mately died from acute inflammation of the lung of a 
 very r,eculia.r character consequent upon the nitrous 
 fumes. 
 
 10727. The Committee have had a good deal of evi- 
 dence on that point. In all oases it could be referred 
 back tO' a definite ©xposuxe to the fumes, And iin that 
 way would come, would it not, under the hea/ding of 
 an accident ? — Yes. 
 
 10708. What oil is it?-Creosote oil-coal oil and 10728. In youi book you refer to nitrous fume poi- 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 339 
 
 ^tTl^A ^^u^^^ manufacture of celluloid, and you refer 
 - ^ ^®^™ "'om pneumonia or acute bronchitis. "'^^'■ = 
 
 Was 
 
 that a gradual poisoning or was it a delinite exposure 
 to lumes I— I cannot recall the case you speak of. 
 
 to'it?— N^°^^ attention has not been specially directed ^r T.O 
 
 -Vr \ J 
 
 10730. Therefore nitlrous fumesi can T)e regarded, ' v'-R-C. 
 
 can, they, m the Ught of an accident ?-Yes. Lur 
 
 22 April 
 
 THIRTY-EIGHTH DAY. 
 
 Tuesday, 2^rd April 1907. 
 
 MEMBEES PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. Heebeet Samitel, m.p. {Chairman). 
 Mr. Henet Ctotnghame, c.b. , Mr. T. M. Leggb, m.d. 
 
 Professor Clifeoed Allbutt, F.E.S. J ' Mr. Fea>.k Elliott (ftcrrfari/). 
 
 Mr. J. J. Canblish, called and examined. 
 
 10732. {Oha^rman.) Are you member of the firm of 
 Robert Candlish and Son, bottle manufacturers, Sea- 
 ham Harbour, near Sunderland ?— Yes. 
 
 10733. How many hands do you employ ?— About 
 600. ^ •' 
 
 10734. How many of those would be bot'tle finishers ? 
 — I have prepared a statement as to the number of 
 those men who come in contact with the furnace. I 
 have not the number of finishers, but I should say 60 
 or 70 would be employed .absolutely in fiaiishing. 
 
 10735. How many cases of cataract have you had in 
 your works ? — We have never had any case of cataract 
 which has compelled a man to leave his work, but I 
 have maxie inquiry in the wotks and I find there are 
 five men now employed there who say they have had 
 cataract ; one is aged 73, a man named A. ; B., aged 
 67 ; C, aged 62 ; D., aged 60 ; and E., aged 56. 
 
 10736. Are these men still at work? — They are still 
 at work. A. had an operation performed at the age 
 of 67 ; B. at the age of 65 ; C. at 60 ; and both D. and 
 E. were aged 54. 
 
 10737. Are there any other men in the works who 
 suffer from any other affection of the eyes? — We have 
 inquired of every man who has been employed more 
 than 30 years at the work, and of that number, about 
 50, there are only three who say their eyesight is 
 indifferent. One is named George F., aged 65 ; and 
 his brother, aged 63 ; and a man called G., who is 
 also 53. With regard tO' the two F., I know the family 
 are short-sighted. I put in a list of the 50 men with 
 tlie answers they have given me, their ages, the time 
 th^ have been at work, and what they say about their 
 eyesight. 
 
 10738. Do you say you never had a case of men 
 having to leave their work thrO'UJgh. cataract, or other 
 affection of the eyes? — ^I do not remember a single 
 case where a man has had to leave his employment. 
 
 10739. How many years does that statement cover? 
 —jit represents inquiries of the men who have been 
 with us since the works commenced, 54 years' ago, and 
 my personal experience extends over 37 years. You 
 will observe in that list that one man is over 70 years of 
 age, and is still at work ; he has been employed at 
 bottle works for 66 years ; ten of them are over 60 
 years of age, 18 are over SO years of age, and 17 are 
 over 40 years of age ; and as far as I can learn, the 
 remaining 400 men who come in contact with the fur- 
 naces and are employed in the works, all have good 
 eyesight. 
 
 10740. What occupations do the five men who have 
 had cataract follow? — B. has worked at the trade for 
 58 years ; Jie was a bottle maker, but not a finisher. 
 He went away from the bottle making and was in 
 the coal pits for about ten years, and came back, and 
 
 410 
 
 after being back with us a few years he had an 
 operation for cataract But he was then 65 years of ^I^' i: 
 age, and if his eyesight was injured, it is more likely '"""""^ 
 that it was done in the coal mine. The other man, 23 April J 
 
 D., No. 9 on the list, is now labouring. He ceased 
 
 to be employed as a bottle maker some years ago. 
 He says he has had two operations for cataract, but he 
 is a man who was never what we call a steady work- 
 man. He did not take care of himself, and any injury 
 to his eyes I should think was certainly not caused by 
 his work. 
 
 10741. He was previously a bottle maker? — Yes, he 
 was an apprenticed bottle maker. 
 
 10742. And after serving his time did he become a 
 regular bottle maker ? — Yes ; then he went to sea, and 
 was for many years a fireman on some colliers that go 
 to Seaham ; then he came back to the bottle works 
 and woirked for a while again. 
 
 10743. For about how long after he went to sea, do 
 you happen to know? — I do not. He went backwards 
 and forwards a good deal ; but he settled dovra when 
 he got older. He says he started at the bottle works 
 when he was seven years old. You see he was an old 
 man before he had any-thing the matter with his. 
 sight. Then No. 15, A., is 73 years of age, and he- 
 is still working. He ceased making bottles six years 
 ago. 
 
 10744. Why did he stop?— Age, I think. His eye- 
 sight was not good, and since then he has had an 
 operation for cataract. C. is now labouring. Two 
 years ago, when he was aged 60, he had an operation. 
 
 10745. And he is now labouring instead of bottle ■ 
 finishing ? — ^Yes ; he has not been a bottle hand for 
 a great number of years. He never was a finisher ; 
 he was a gaJtherer, and then he became a glass maker,, 
 which, if anything, is more trying than bottle making, 
 as far as the light of the furnace goes. A bottle- 
 maker works a.t a small hole, which we call the work- 
 ing hole, and is not much exposed to the glare. He- 
 simply dips his tool into the metal and takes the bottle- 
 behind a shada But a glass maker has to be con- 
 tinually watching the glass melting the whole time, 
 and therefore is much more exposed than the bottle 
 makers. Those men are provided with blue glasses, 
 but they very seldom use them ; they can see better 
 without them, they say. They are not spectacles, but 
 a piece of square blue glass in a frame, which they are 
 supposed to take up when they are looking into the 
 furnace, but they prefer not to do it. E. is 56 years 
 of age, and has undergone an operation for cataract, 
 and says his eyesight is all right now. He never was 
 a finisher ; he is a blower, which is the work, I under- 
 stand, which is the least likely to do injury to the eye- 
 sight, because the man's back is always to the furnace. 
 
 10746. What does your medical officer say on the 
 
 •2 u 2 
 
340 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. J. J. 
 Cundlish. 
 
 23 April 1907, 
 
 subject? — ^I wrote to the medical officer and he replied : 
 •'In reply to your question as to my experience of 
 industrial diseases in the bottle making trade, with 
 special reference to cataract, I beg to state that I have 
 attended your employees for 23 years, and during that 
 time I have not seen a case of caitaract or of any other 
 disease of the eyes which was in my opinion due to 
 the patient's employment. I consider that, on the 
 whole, bottle making is a healthy occupation. — Yours 
 truly, Gerald Dillon." He is the Medical Officer of 
 Health for the district. 
 
 10747. Then in your opinion do I gather thaA there 
 is no industrial disease, and you consider that bo'ttle 
 making is a healthy trade? — I do. 
 
 10748. I have hefore me a lisit of cases sent to us 
 by the men's Trade Union — the Glass Bottle Makers of 
 Yorkshire Trade Protection Society, showing that out 
 of 114 men who are on their superannuation fund, 33 
 have come on it for cataract, and 15 others for other 
 diseases of the eye, making 48 out of 114. Can you 
 offer any explanation of that very large proportion? — 
 It is a very small proportion of the members of the 
 Society, is it not ? 
 
 10749. It is nearly half of those superannuated 1 — 
 Which shows how healthy the trade is. Out of a 
 Society which has, you say, 4,000 members, there are 
 only 114 on their permanent fund, which covers years. 
 I think that figure of 114 is the return for 10 years, 
 from 1897 to 1906. If you take the 33 for cataract, 
 that only gives you about three men each year, and it 
 only gives 4.8 for all eye diseases for 4,000 people, so 
 it is only 1 in 1,000. 
 
 10750. It is one in a thousand if you had a different 
 1,000 every year? — You see, it is a growing Society, and 
 the membership a few years ago was only 3,000 ; while 
 it is apparently 4,000 now. 
 
 10751. In this list of cases furnished to the Com- 
 mittee, I do not &3e any cases from Seaham Harbour. 
 There is one case in London, and one or two at 
 Newport, South Wales ? — Quite so. 
 
 10752. (Mr. Cunynghame.) The point is this. You 
 see what the men say here is, that, out of 114 cases 
 of general illness, you get no less than 48 cataract 
 and other diseases of the eye. Now, if you examine 
 the returns of other societies, of course, you would find 
 various diseases, 'but you would not find such an enor- 
 mous proportion of cataract ? — But would you not find 
 a very much larger proportion of the men on the 
 superannuation fund. 
 
 10753. That depends upon the conditions under 
 which they axe put on the fund? — ^And the age they 
 are put on. 
 
 10754. Why is it that out of 114 cases you get such 
 ■a very large number of cataract cases, though the 
 total may be small ? That is the point, and it wants 
 •explanation ? — I think the proportion of men that go 
 -on the superannuation fund is very small compared 
 
 with other trades ; but of those that do go on they 
 must go on for som.3 reason ; and when a man is too 
 
 •old to work, all he has to do is to get a doctor's certifi- 
 cate that his eyesight is failing him, which is the most 
 likely thing he can get. The hottle-maker is not 
 
 ■exposed to weather ; he works in a comfortable room ; 
 he has the furnance behind him, certainly, but he 
 
 -always works in a cool atmosphere. It is a regular and 
 healthy occupation. He comes at a regular hour, and 
 leaves at a regular hour ; he is well paid and well 
 
 housed, and well clothed, and well fed, and he lives to 
 ■a great age, and is able to work to a great age, there- 
 fore the thing likely to fail him first is his eyesight, 
 but none of them fail until they get to a good age. 
 
 10755. Taking the watchmakers' trade, you would 
 expect to find failing eyesight, but you do not see 
 such figures as those with regard to that trade?— -I 
 admit that if a man has to go on the superanni*ation 
 fund, as a bottle-maker, he is as likely to go on for 
 failing eyesight at an advanced age as anything else, 
 but we do not get the young men or middle-aged men 
 with eyesight failing. 
 
 10756. (Chairman.) It has been suggested that in 
 some parts of the country men are less likely to con- 
 tract the disease, because inside the furnace there is a 
 sort of brick erection which takes away some of the 
 glare. Is that the case ? — We all have various notions 
 about building furnaces. Some have bridges, and 
 some have not, but I do not think there is anything in 
 it, so far as the eyesight of the men is concerned. I 
 
 think in the old days the conditions of working ,so far 
 as the eyes are concerned, were very much worse. At 
 present we work with gas tanks. The glass is in a 
 big bath, and it is always much about the same level, 
 melting at one end, and flowing through. In the old 
 days -it was made in crucibles, 4 ft. 6 ins. high, and 
 when a man worked at that he commenced working at 
 the top, and as it got lower and lower, he had to stoop 
 further and further over. Therefore I attribute the 
 older men getting cataract to the early experience, if 
 it be proved they can attribute it to the furnace at all. 
 
 10757. Do you know the conditions of the work at 
 Castleford ?— Yes. 
 
 10758. Are they similar to those at other places? — I 
 should say yes, generally speaking, they are similar. 
 
 10759. Do you think there are any glass works in 
 England where the conditions are not so good as in 
 yours, which would be more likely to create cataract? 
 — I do not know any works where the conditions need 
 be different. You see, there is a difference in both 
 employers and workmen. 'Some men are careful, and 
 work like reasonable men. Others care for nothing, 
 and do not take care either of their own bodies or of 
 their employer's property. You always find a 
 different tone in different factories, go where you will, 
 but I don't know of any place where the conditions 
 would create cataract. There are factories, of course, 
 in which men prefer to. work to others, because some 
 employers take the view that the more comfortable 
 they can make the men the better and more satis- 
 factory will be the result of the work, and no doubt all 
 round you get a better body of men together like that, 
 and you also get men in a better condition, but in the 
 main I should think there is nothing to complain of 
 in the glass-bottle trade at all, and it is really a 
 healthy trade. Our late manager, retired now, is 80 
 years of age. He was apprenticed and went through 
 all the branches of the trade. He commenced work 
 when he was 8 ; he retired 10 years ago, when he was 
 70, and his eyesight and general health are perfectly 
 good to-day. I consulted him about this, and he said 
 it was " Nowt but a heap o' nonsense." 
 
 10760. (Mr. Cunyngliame.) Then your view is that 
 this is a sort of remnant, as it were, of an old state cf 
 things, and rather old state of ideas?— Yes, that is 
 rather my idea. 
 
 10761. Have you any statistics as to cataract amongst 
 the population at large ? — No. 
 
 10762. I suppose that you would say that some of 
 these figures are dependent upon the old state of things, 
 when, as you tell us, the workmen had to look into 
 the crucible in order to pick the glass out at rhe 
 bottom, instead of having it brought up to a level? — 
 Yes, I should say, although the proportion of old men 
 who have got bad eyesight is very small, I should 
 think in the future, under present conditions, it -will 
 be less, if the furnaces have really injured their sight. 
 
 10763. Then we ought to expect from these figures 
 a diminishing number as time goes on? — Yes, if it is 
 the case. 
 
 10764. Taking the Yorkshire figures, what would 
 you say?— If you take my own works, and look at 
 the list of names, it bears my idea out. The first man 
 is a storekeeper. He was a finisher all- his life until 
 he retired at 50 years of age from the bottle making 
 on account of muscular contraction Now, a finisher, I 
 understand they say, is more liable to any disease of 
 this kind, and he was a finisher. We have not a man 
 on our superannuation fund for bad eyesight, and 
 never have had but one. Then there was another man, 
 number 2, who was a finisher also, until he retired, 
 aged 69, with good eyes. Number 3 on the list is a 
 gatherer. Number 4 is a man 66 years of age, and 
 for 58 years he has worked at bottle making, and to- 
 day is finishing. I saw him yesterday, and his eye- 
 sight is better than mine. 
 
 10765. (Chairman.) Then if you have no cases of 
 cataract an your works, you would not have any com- 
 pensation to pay, would you ?— If we had no case in 
 which a man could get a certificate from a doctor that 
 his eyesight was failing him. 
 
 10766. But, supposing cataract alone were scheduled ? 
 —We never knew that we had accidents in the works 
 until we had the Compensation Act. We know 
 of more accidents in a week now than we had in 
 a year before. I do not suggest they would make 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 341 
 
 Tfrong claims, but what I do suggest is that, if men 
 are allowed when they get to a .certain age, to get 
 .certmoates for damaged eyesight or failing eyesight, it 
 becomes a matter of opinion whether it is due to the 
 lurnace or not. If it comes about, these men will not 
 fee working at 60. and 70 years of lage, but will be on 
 the compensation fund. If you look at the list of men 
 working now, there is not a man under 56 years who 
 «ays his eyesight is indifierent. 
 
 10767. (Professor Allhuit.) Have you a large propor- 
 tion of older hands in your works? — That may be so, 
 the glass-making trade is rather peculiar, because it 
 Tuns in families, and settles in localities, and smoky 
 manufacturing towns are not so healthy, but I think 
 •we are more fortunate than other works, because our 
 -works are situated on the sea cliffs, right away from 
 a town. 
 
 10768. Would it he true on that account to say that 
 the average age of workmen is higher in the glass trade 
 thin in any other trades. If it runs in families and is 
 A steady trade, do you think that is why the age runs 
 liigher ? — I do not think so. It is a work of a special 
 •description. All these compensation funds and so on 
 make it more difficult for us to keep the old men. 
 
 10769. The glass makers, on the average, there, are 
 not older than men employed in other trades? — Are 
 not they ; I do not know what the average is. 
 
 10770. My point is, that cataract being a disease of 
 ■old age, if glass makers, owing to the conditions of 
 their trade and the hereditary character of it, work 
 longer, the average age of the glass makers would be 
 higher.'' — Quite so. 
 
 10771. And in this case thkre migjht be some excess 
 of cataract ? — Yes, that would be so. 
 
 10772. (Br. Legge.) Is there any limit of age for the 
 men who do finishing 1 — ^None. 
 
 10773. I understand finishing is one of the hardest 
 departments ? — I think it is on© of the easiest. There 
 are three main stages, the gatherer who- has to take 
 s, blow-pipe and gather the right quantity of glass out 
 of the furnace, the blower who blows it into shape, 
 and the finisher who takes it from the blower, runs a 
 ■piece of glass round the mouth and forms the mouth 
 ■of the bottle. The finisher sits on a bench, and has to 
 take a piece of glass, weighing about an ounce, run it 
 round, and form it with a tool. He is th© highest paid 
 man, because in the old days he had charge of the 
 whole. The bottle is finished when it leaves him, and 
 ie has the responsibility of saying whether it is good 
 
 ;;r bad. H© is the highest paid man, and it is con- 
 •sidered to be th© easiest work. Th© blower, I should 
 say, has the hardest work. 
 
 10774. What would th© difference in wages be 'be- 
 tween this man Johnson, say, who is a storekeeper 
 now and was a finisher ? — W© simply give the position 
 to an elderly man who. is past work; he would pro^ 
 bably get 30s. a week. 
 
 10775. I think you mentioned one man who had had xr I r 
 the lens removed, who was actually doing finishing at rn'/jLi' 
 the present time, did you not?-Fail is gathering, ''"^^''■ 
 <-.oulson IS labouriQg, Oook is labouring, Ward is 23 AprU 1907, 
 
 labouring, and Frater is the only one making bottles, 
 
 but ho IS blowing— the second stage— the hardest work 
 
 of the lot. The 50 men given are not a selec- 
 tion ; these are the whole of the men I could 
 get hold of at the time. I remembered one 
 or two afterwards who would have made the 
 oas© stronger. Our masons, for example, ai-e very 
 much exposed, more exposed than bottle makers to 
 this great heat. If anything happens to a furnace that 
 has to be repaired, they have to take out whole 
 blocksi of the furnace, and stand so close that their 
 clothes sometimes are singed ; and we have a man, a 
 foreman mason, who is over 60 years of age, and whd 
 has been at it over thirty years. He certainly has 
 worked for us over 30 years. 
 
 10776. But the view rather is that this par- 
 tieu'ar cataract of bottle finishei-s begins comparatively 
 early — ^before SO years ; it commences, as often as not, 
 befoi-e the age O'f 50, and not uncommonly at the age 
 of 40? — Is that th© opinion of Dr. Bobuison, of Sun- 
 derland ? 
 
 10777. Yes?— Well, he has built an eye ho-spital. 
 Why did not Dr. Robinson come and ask us for 
 evidence ? 
 
 10778. If there were a limit to the development of 
 the cataract to 50 years, that would relieve you ot 
 cataract developing in those who were very old? 
 Dr. Bobinson'a statement is that this cataract 
 in bottle finishers will probably occur before a 
 man is 50 years old, and therefore if one were 
 to fix a limit after which cataract should not come 
 under the Workmen's 'Compensation Act, that would, 
 in some measure, meet your difficulty, would it not ? — • 
 But there is not such a case. 
 
 10779. There is not in your worbs? — Is there any 
 case ill Yorkshire of a man who has cataract under 40 ? 
 
 10780. What would your view be if 55 years were 
 fixed on ? — But why should you make a rule, or go out 
 of your way to give compensation for a, thing which 
 has not been proved to exist ? I say my experience is 
 that there is no such thing as an industrial disease of 
 the kind ; there is no evidence that can be brought 
 where you have such a large number of men, living 
 under the conditions under which they live in towns 
 like Castleford, where the atmosphere is very smoky 
 and full of chemicals, who are so healthy. I know we 
 are free from those conditions and we have no cases. 
 
 10781. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you wish 
 to state to th© Oommitte©? — I think not. If there is 
 any other information, or you would like me to con- 
 tinue my investigations in our own works or the dis- 
 trict, I shall be only too happy to devote any time 
 necessary with a view of eliciting the truth. 
 
 Mr. W. Bebffit, called and examined. 
 
 10782. (Chairman.) Are you th© chairman of the 
 Yorkshire Glass Bottle Manufacturers' Association? — 
 1 am. 
 
 10783. You are good enough to come to th© Com- 
 mittee and state something about the alleged undue 
 prevalence of cataract in the eye. Where are your 
 woriffl situated ? — ^About 10 miles from Leeds, at Castle- 
 ford. 
 
 10784. How many men do you employ ?— Glass 
 workers, only about 480. 
 
 10785. Have you had many cases of cataract among 
 them ?— We have had a few cases of failing sight, but 
 whether I should b© justified in saying that they were 
 ■cataract or not I do not know. I do not think I should, 
 because I do not know positively In two cases I dis- 
 cussed the matter with our doctor, who is a personal 
 friend of mine, some time ago, and I think there is not 
 Much doubt that there were two cases of cataract out 
 ■lit the four that I hav© in my mind, but whether it was 
 ia. any way due to the trade the men had followed, or 
 whether it was due to old age, or whether it was due 
 to premature old age in consequence of the exhaustive 
 mature of tjie work, w© were unable to conclude. 
 
 1C>786. Do I gather that out of 480 people who were 
 
 employed you have had four cases of injury to the eye? 
 —Four cases that I know of positively. 
 
 In how many years ? — Twenty years. 
 
 Can you tell me the names of those men?- 
 
 10787. 
 
 10788. 
 Yes, B. 
 
 10789. (Dr. Legge.) In what year did he get cataract? 
 — I can hardly tell that from memory; I can furnish 
 full particulars if necessary. I should think it is about 
 six yeaiip sine© he left. Then another man was called 
 D. He has given up, I should think, about the same 
 time — six or seven years. 
 
 10790. (Professor Allhutt.) These cases were known 
 to be cases of cataract, were they ? — I think so. Then 
 there was another man called G., and there was also a 
 man called H. H.'s case, I think, the doctor said was 
 entirely brought on by excessive smoking. 
 
 10791. That would not bs cataract, I think? — I do 
 not know. 
 
 10792. (Chairman.) Ai-e youi-s the only glass works 
 at Castleford ? — No, there are two other small fac- 
 tories; one is working now entirely with machines, 
 blowing bottles by machines and not by hand at all. 
 
 10793. About how many men would these other two 
 
 .3'> W. 
 Breffit. 
 
342 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. TV. 
 Breffit. 
 
 factoi'ies employ ?- 
 them. 
 
 -I sliould think about 150 between 
 
 10794. The Committee have had fui-niahed them some 
 
 ''SA 'HQiW 10794. Ine Committee have iiad. lui-mahed tnem some 
 
 xather striking figures by the men's Trade Union, by 
 
 the Glass Bottle JVlakers of Yorkshire Trade Protection 
 Society, showing a very considerable number of men 
 on their superannuation fund, who have been super- 
 annuated owing to cataract. I find, on looking through, 
 the following names from Castleford, I., who was 
 a bottle maker, superannuated in 1899 at the age of 
 59, the lens of one eye removed for cataract, and there 
 was another cataract in the other eye. He was also 
 suffering from albuminuria. Was he one of your em- 
 ployees ? — Yes, I think he was, if it is tiie man I have in 
 my mind. I remember that case, and I think I per- 
 suaded him to be operated upon. I had forgotten about 
 that. Then there is K., of Castleford, a bottle maker, 
 superannuated in 1901 at the age of 50, from early 
 cataract in both eyes ? — ^I do not remember K. 
 
 10795. Then there is L., Castleford, superannuated 
 in 1901 at the age of 57, suffering from atheroma of the 
 arteries and early cataract; M., of Castleford, super- 
 annuated at the age of 51 in 1901,- from cataract in the 
 right eye, and a similar condition of the left eye ; N., 
 of Castleford, superannuated in 1901, at the age of 60, 
 with double cataract ; O., of Castleford, superannuated 
 in 1903, at the age of 60, from failure of eyesight and 
 chronic rheumatism of the knee joints ; P., of Castle- 
 ford, superannuated at the age of 50 in 1903, from 
 double cataract; Q., of Castleford, superannuated in 
 1904, at the age of 56, from double cataract; R., in 
 1904, at the age of 54, cataract removed from the right 
 eye, quarter division, and cataract forming on the 
 left; S., of Castleford, superannuated in 1905, at the 
 age of 59, with double cataract ; and T., in 1906, at the 
 age of 62, with early cataract in b"bth eyes. Are any 
 of those men in your employment ? — L. was ; M. was 
 part of his time, but he left our place 14 or 15 years 
 ago ; Q. was at our place. He was a manager, but I 
 had to discharge him for intemperance, and he has 
 left about eight years. T. also worked at our 
 place, but I believe he emigrated to America some time 
 ago. I know nothing about him ; he never complained 
 of his sight. I understood he wanted to retire because 
 he wanted to emigrate. He had some boys and girls 
 growing up, and the whole family of them emigrated in 
 a batch. 
 
 10796. That is rather a large number from amongst 
 500 or 600 men employed in one town in one trade, is 
 it not? — ^Yo'U see the number of men employed in the 
 bottle trade is rather diminishing in Castleford. A 
 few years ago there were a great many more hands 
 employed there, and there were a great many men who 
 dropped out in consequence of the failure of two firms 
 there, so that it is hardly fair, I think, to draw an 
 inference of that kind. 
 
 10797. How many men would have been employed 
 ten years ago, say in 1898? — I could hardly tell you, 
 but I should say more than there are now. 
 
 10798. Were the two firms that dropped out large 
 firms ? — Yes. 
 
 10799. (Mr. Gunynghame.) The last witness told us 
 that the method of making glass is altering in this 
 respect, that in the old days they took the glass out 
 of crucibles, and had to look into the crucible to gather 
 it from the bottom? — Precisely. 
 
 10800. And that the present method is to> gather it 
 from the level, which he said was a good deal less likeljr 
 to injure the eyes. Do you agree with that ? — ^I should! 
 say so myself. All these men mentioned here, this man. 
 Q., for instance, was a man who never worked at the- 
 gas furnace at all. The idea is that the glare or the 
 heat of the modern, gas furnace is what is inducing 
 cataract in the eye.; but that is absurd, because by far 
 the largiest proportion of those annuitants on the 
 Yorkshire Glass Bottle Makers' iSociety are men who« 
 probably never worked at a gas furnace at all. They 
 worked in what we called the pot shops. There ware- 
 four pots placed together which used to be filled during 
 the night and worked out during the day. 
 
 10801. But there was heat round tihem. all the time, 
 was there not ? — No, it resolved itself into ■ a eoke fire: 
 during the working time. There was a, big square of 
 about 14 feet, and, these pots one, at each, comei, wid. 
 the fuel round the pots. 
 
 10802. Then you could not stoke during the day, I 
 suppose ? — Very little,, because it would make smoke,, 
 and the men could not work. But in the gas fuinaca- 
 the nearest approach of the flame to the men is 14 feet 
 as a whole. When a man is vrorking he is upright 
 and dipping down, and there is a thick brick wall 
 between him and the furnace. 
 
 10803. But not between his eyes a,nd the, glass ?^ — 
 It is ; really what he sees of the glass is only a very 
 small portion. He gets very little glare and not muck 
 heat. 
 
 10804. (Dr. Legge.) Were V. and R. finishers ?— No, 
 V. was a gatherer, R. was a finisher. G. was also a. 
 finisher. Now he was what we call a cjarboy 
 blower, a man who blew nothing but larg* 
 bottles of 10 gallons as a rule. That work, 
 takes a man away from the furnace considerably. 
 They are not stuck at the furnace in the same way 
 as ordinary bottle makers are. I do not know whether 
 the Committee have taken into account the fact that 
 there are 518 who have left the trade during the last 
 five years, and I think these figures which have been 
 given, ought to be taken on the number of men work- 
 ing. , It is biardly fair to say there are 114 men retired 
 in nine years or ten years, or five years, or whatever 
 it is, and that those men represent the aatual per- 
 centage of cases. The only way to get at it, I think, 
 would be to have the whole of the men examined, and 
 I suggest also to the Committee that they shoTild come 
 down and see how these men do actually work, or 
 send a deputation. I should be very pleased to show 
 you anything you like to come and .see. There are- 
 other matters which might afiect the question, and that 
 is the infection of syphilis, the extremely intemperate 
 habits of the men as a rule. I mean the enormous 
 quantities of drink they take, and the possibility that 
 the cataract may be induced in that ivay. There is 
 medical e-yidence, I think, to show that cataract may 
 be produced in that way, and there is what is called 
 diabetic cataract, which may be induced by intem- 
 perate habits. I have taken a great deal oi interest 
 in our men, and tried all I could to persiuade them to 
 improve their methods of living, and so on, but it 
 does not have much effect, though I think that there 
 is an improvement to what there was when I first took 
 charge of our business, when my father died, 20 years 
 ago. I am afraid there is more disease due to the 
 causes I have mentioned -than to anything else. 
 
 Mr. C. B. F. BoKEON, called and examined. 
 
 10805. (Chairman.) Are you a bottle manufacturer 
 JItr. C. B. F. at Ne-wton-le- Willows, in Lancashire ? — Yes. . 
 
 orron. 10806. Albout ho-w; many men d'o you employ? — 
 
 About 2S0 round the furnaces. 
 
 10807. Have you had any or many cases of cataract 
 amongst these men? — No. 
 
 10808. Have you had any at all? — ^No-, but I have 
 a memorandum of the number in Lancashire itself. 
 I am Honorary Secretary of the Manufacturers' Asso- 
 oiation of Lancashire, and I can speak with some 
 authority on the inquiries I have made from the other 
 manufacturers. There are about 1,700 in the whole of 
 Lancashire working at the furnaces, and in the whole 
 county there are only four men affected with their eyes 
 They are No. 1, aged 71, retired. He became a 
 manager in 1883, and cataract developed after he left 
 off practical working at the trade. Then No. 2 retired 
 about the age of 50, from weak eyes, and is now work- 
 
 ing as a carter in the works where he was formerly 
 employed. No. 3 retired at 60, but is still working in 
 the works ; No. 4 retired at 60, and is now 70. 
 
 10809. How many years back have you gone in 
 making these inquiries? — This informaition is obtained 
 from the existing Union lists, and from the Workmen's 
 Association. 
 
 10810. What are the centres in Lancashire of the 
 glass bottle trade ? — St. Helens and Newton. I should 
 like to put in the Union Secretary's letter to me in 
 which he says : " I find on looking over the list of mem- 
 bers who are on our old age pension or superannuation 
 list at the present time that we have only some 
 five members who are suffering, or have suffered, from 
 cataract of the eyes, and this is for the Lancashire 
 District of Glass Bottle Makers, and they are as fol- 
 lows : — No. 1, present age, 71, retired at 71 ; No. 3, 
 present age 74, retired at 60 ; No. 4, present age 70, 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 843 
 
 W Xo 5 t.' ^°.- ^' P^^^^Jit ^^^ &2, retired at 50; 
 oninion t^l T^ ^^^ ^2, retired , at 58. Now, in m^ 
 Z mrp 7/ ""^^^ ''^"'^'^y' the glass bottle trade, will 
 ■•,^3 T.?^°f^^^J ^^^'^ ^ g^eat many other trades; 
 m lact, 1 tlunk so far, as the Lancashire aistriot is con- 
 oerned may be compared with any trade, so far as my 
 -opinion goes, and I have some 40 years myself in the 
 .glasshouse, and it is only during the last two or three 
 years that 1 have had to wear glasses to read with, 
 ^nd 1 am still working at th.3 furnace every day." 
 That IS the information to me by Mr. Robert Hunter 
 the District Secretary of the Glass Bottle Makers' 
 "Trade Protection Society. 
 
 10811. Do you know how many cases they have on 
 their superannuiation fund ? — No. 
 
 10812. Do yoji, knoi^ at what age men in, that Union 
 *aii claim superannuation benefit?— I think it is 60 
 tut I would not like to commit myself, because they 
 lave guardei themsalves with regard to the particulars 
 of their organisation, and it is with difficultv vou can 
 .get any statistics. The letter I have read, " you mav 
 say, is a friendly letter. 
 
 10813 (Mr. Cunynghame.) Do yo.ur men wear 
 ■r^^^^^~^°-\^ ™ay say with reference to that that 
 an the,.70,s, when oiir furnaces were so constructed as 
 not to have so much smoke in them, two of our men 
 -wore glasses for a sbort period. 
 
 10814. I mean coloured glasses?— I daresay they 
 ■were coloured. They thought it might ease them, and 
 they did try them, but they did not find them con- 
 venient or suitable, and they discairded them. 
 
 10815. What was it they were endeavouring to ease nfr r s r 
 themselves from ?-It was with reference to the change h^: f ^• 
 
 ?u^2.*°r*''''*'^^ °^ *'^^ ^"^"^'^^ f™«> the u.ual open ^^T^' 
 luimace to a gas furnace. ^ 2.3Aprill907. 
 
 10816 They felt that a little at first, do you mean? 
 
 1 n«TI two men thought they would have a try. 
 +1, y i ^^"t th*^ ^hole of the trade feel, do they not, 
 that the gas furnace is more uncomfortable than the 
 old system ?— No, I do not think so. 
 
 10818. Assuming that the blazing light and heat 
 miglit affect the eyes, and assuming tJiat coloured 
 glass was a guard against it, is there any difficulty in 
 tne manufacture that prevents men wearing blue 
 glasses or coloured glasses?—! do not think there is 
 any difficulty at all about it. I think these men com- 
 plained of the great heat that the glasses caused them, 
 and that was one of their reasons. 
 
 10819,' At all events, they do not wear them in your 
 place much ?— No, they do not wear them at all ; they 
 discarded them altogether after those two men tried 
 thom. 
 
 10820. (Chairman.) Have you anything else you wish 
 ' to state to the Ckjmmittee ?— No. I simply wish to say 
 that in all my experience of 45 years in the trade, it ' 
 has never been brought forward, to my cognisance or 
 thos.3 connected with the trade, that cataract was a 
 prevalent disease. My father, my grandfather, and ■ 
 great-grandfather ha:ve been ill the trade before me, 
 and I have 'never heard that there was ever any • 
 injury caused by the work to the eyesight of the glafes 
 maker. 
 
 Mr. W. S. Kebe, m.b.,. cm., f.e.c.s. called and examined. 
 
 10821. (Chairman.) Are you in practice at Sheffield? 
 — Yes. 
 
 10822. Do you attend here, at the request of the 
 Employers' Federation ?— Yes, I believe I do. 
 
 10823. Can you tell the Committee something about 
 .fibrosis of the lungs due to inhalation of dust ? — Yes. 
 
 10824. Have you had many cases of that under your 
 ■care ? — ^In the forms of what we call grinder's phthisis 
 I have seen a fair number of cases. 
 
 10825. Are you of opinion that fibrosis of the lungs 
 can be differentiated in diagnosis from other lung 
 diseases during life ? — ^No, I do not think so. 
 
 10826. If you had the history of a man's employment 
 and were able to examine him over a period of time, 
 <do you think that there are never cases in which an 
 experienced doctor would ibe able to say, " This man's 
 disease is fibrosis " ? — I do not think, apart from tuber- 
 •cular phthisis, on© could. 
 
 10827. You said you had had under your notice cases 
 of grinder's phthisis. . What ifloes that signify exactly ? 
 — ^It means that the man has been working in this 
 •dust. We take it for granted that he has inhaled dust 
 in his lungs, but what he practically comes for treat- 
 ment for is "tuberculosis. 
 
 10828. Have yon never had cases in which there is 
 ■fibrosiswithout the tubercle bacillus being present? — I 
 liave not .seen a case myself, but I know of one case 
 at .the Royal Infirmary at Sheffield where, with the 
 symptoms of phthisis, there was no tubercle bacillus 
 present. 
 
 10829. Is phthisis prevalent amongst the grinders ? — 
 Yes, I should say it was, amongst certain kinds of 
 grinders — the dry grinders. One might suspect, of 
 course, if you knew the man's work, , and there were 
 catarrhal symptoms, that there was fibrosis. 
 
 10830. (Professor Allbutt.) From what I have seen, 
 •and from what I have heard in evidence, I believe that 
 which is, rightly or wrongly, called " fibroid phthisis " 
 cr grinders' phthisis — ^as opposed to ordinary tubercu- 
 lous phthisis— is a veTy long process, is it hot, some- 
 thing e:^t3nding pver a good many years, possibly 10 ot 
 15 years. Is that your experience ?— Yes, it is of pro- 
 loiiiged duration. 
 
 10831. And in these cases, for perhaps 5 or 6 years, 
 although the man may certainly suffer from short- ' 
 ness of breath and some cough, he may have little or no 
 important expectoration, or little bronchial expectora- 
 tion-,, .and the physical signs in the chest .are very 
 negative, are they not ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10832. Would that also be in accordanoa with your .. 
 experience in any cases that you have seen ?— Yes, ~ • '''• '^• 
 practically, except for , the fact that the man is a c m 'p r't « 
 grinder, and has these symptoms, he would be put ' ' ^■^• ^^' 
 down as having bronchitis. 
 
 10833. You start, of course, with the fact that he Is 
 a grinder ? — Yes. 
 
 10834. And the movement of temperature is not 
 particularly characteristic of the tuberculous disease ?— ' 
 As a rule when the patient comes for treatment the tem- 
 perature is fluctuating. 
 
 10835. But at the end of some considerable length 
 of time the man gradually becomes moxe and more 
 incapacitated ; there are signs of his blood being 
 deficiently aerated, yet there is still an absence of any- 
 thing like excavation going on, any active excavating 
 process in the lungs, but the man does become inca^ 
 pacitated, and begins to cough more and suffer more 
 and more from shortness of breath. Is that the kind of 
 case which you see in your experience amongst grinders? 
 I really cannot recall a case where I should not diagnose 
 tubercle phthisis. 
 
 10836. Do you see out-patients at the hospital or 
 dispensary on a large scale? — No, not on a' great scale. 
 
 10837. But the group of symptoms I have put to you 
 are not those of ordinary tuberculous consumption, 
 are they ? — No. 
 
 10838. Then if at a later stage of such disease, say, 
 after the lapse of 5 or 6 years or more, tubercle 
 bacillus is found in the Sputum, even then the history 
 of the case is not that of an ordinary case of tubercu- 
 losis of the lungs, is it? — ^No. 
 
 10859. So far, then, as those oases I have put to you, 
 you do not know of any such cases at all? — No, not 
 apart from slow tuberculosis of the lung. 
 
 10840. But the oases I suggest are very different from 
 ordinary tuberculosis of the lung. Have you seen any 
 post-mortem on men who die of grinder's fibrosis? — ■ 
 Yes. 
 
 10841. Can you tell the Committee what your obser- 
 vations have been on post-mortem. Could not you tell, 
 for example, by post-mortem of the lung, whether it 
 was grinder's phthisis or ordinary tuberculous phthisis? 
 
 ^The presence of the stone dust in the lung would 
 
 make a difference. 
 
 10842. If it is grit it acts as a strong irritant on 
 the lung, does it not? — Yes. 
 
 10843. And sets up a good deal of fibrous inflamma- 
 tion in the lung, which is not tubercule ? — No, it is not 
 at first, I suppose. 
 
344 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. W. S. 10844. (Chairman.) Have you ever in your medical 
 Kerr, M.B., career had many cases of grinder's phthisis pass 
 CM., F.R.c.s. through your hands ? — Yes, I have seen a good many. 
 
 23 April 1907. 10845. Before occupying your present position? — 
 
 Chiefly in private practice, and as house physician at 
 
 the Infirmary, too. 
 
 10846. Have you seen any cases of injury to eyeff 
 amongst men engagsd in electric welding ? — ^No, I have- 
 not. 
 
 10847. Irs there anything else you would desire to 
 lay before the Committee ? — ^o, I do not think I have 
 anything more to say. 
 
 Mr. HoLMSHAW, called and examined. 
 
 Mr. 10848. (Chairman.) Are you the Secretary of the 
 
 Eolmshaw. Sheffield United Cutlery Council ?— Yes. 
 
 10849. Which represents, does it, the employees in 
 the cutlery trade in Sheffield? — Yes. 
 
 10850. Do your members suffer considerably from 
 fibrosis of the lungs ? — Yes. 
 
 10851. Are you of opinion that that is a disease 
 specific to the employment — a trade disease ? — Yes. 
 
 10852. Are most of your members employed by large 
 employers, or by small employers ? — ^Both. 
 
 10853. And I suppose there are a good many in Shef- 
 field who are employers on a very small scale them- 
 selves ? — Yes, that is so. 
 
 10854. And work at the trade also ? — ^Not in the 
 ordinary sense — ^not as much as ussd to be, if I may 
 explain. We have men who employ one or two journey- 
 men, but they are not what you would term manufac- 
 turers ; they simply fetch the work from the manufac- 
 turer, do it at piece rates, and pay one or two men 
 to help them at day rates of pay. 
 
 10855. Are there a considerable number of such men ? 
 — ^Yefi ; there are a fair number of tihose. 
 
 10856. Has your society considered the question of 
 the inclusion of grinder's lung, if I may use that term, 
 among diseases for which compensation should be paid 
 under the Workmen's^ Compensation Act? — We have 
 not really considered it, and I see very great difficulties 
 in the way of it. 
 
 19857. What difficulties? — It is due to the oocupa- 
 ■ tion. Of course, I take it you uudeietand I am speak- 
 ing now for grinders more especially, or grinders and 
 cutlers. The cutler is the man who' puts the parts of 
 the knife together, and the grinder, of course, is the 
 man who' grinds them. 
 
 10358. How far is the cutler exposed to dust? — In 
 grinding the parts of his knife; for instance, when he 
 puts the parts of a pocket-knife together they will be 
 not even, so iJbat tO' make them even he has to grind 
 them on a dry emery wheel. 
 
 10859. Do the cutlers suffer from grinder's lung?. — 
 Not to any appreciable extent, becaiise it only occu- 
 pies such a small portion of their time. 
 
 10860. Less than the grinder? — ^Yes, the grinder ia 
 at it all along. 
 
 10861. Do' you ever come across cases among the 
 cutlers ? — ^No. 
 
 10862. So that your remarks will apply solely to 
 grinders, will they ? — Solely tO' grinders. 
 
 10863. But the cutler would grind something more 
 or less every day, I suppose ? — ^I should think it would 
 depend very largely upon the class of work. For 
 instance, where they have a division of labour, and 
 where they are dealing with common pocket>-kiaives, 
 they would be doing it every day. In the better class 
 of spring knife it occupies a very small portion of their 
 time. 
 
 10864. Would tie average cutler grind 20 hours a 
 week? — The ordinary cutler would not. 
 
 10865. Ten ? — I should question whether he would 
 ten, but you might fix it at ten. But the man en- 
 gaged on the cheap pocket knife work in the team 
 woiuld be practically doing very little else. The same 
 thing applies as to some parts of table knives. Tbey 
 give it the technical term of " mousing," which is 
 really using a very rough emery wheel. 
 
 10866. Then, in your opinion, it is the grinders whom 
 we have solely to consider ? — Yes, it is the grinders. 
 
 10867. And the cutlers, in so far as they are engaged 
 in grinding, exposed to similar dust ? — Yes. 
 
 10868. Do you consider that this disease affects, men 
 who grind horn ? — ^I have no experience of that. 
 
 10869. Or mother-of-pearl P — I do not know that. 
 
 10870. Or ivory ? — I could not say ; ours is cutlery, 
 
 10871. You were saying that there were considerable- 
 difficulties, in your opinion, that stood in the way of 
 scheduling this disease ; what do you mean by that ?-— 
 Of course, you know, that in Sheffield the disease ifi- 
 compulsorily notifiable as consumption now. 
 
 10872: Is that under the local Act ? — Yes, which was- 
 passed a few yeans ago. 
 
 10873. (Professor Alltbut.) Is it compulsory notifica- 
 tion of phthisis ? — Yes. 
 
 10874. Would that include, so far as you know, botb 
 common consumption and grinders' consumption? — - 
 Yes. I think the medical men get half-a-crown for- 
 each case they notify to the Medical Officer of Healthy 
 and then the consumptive person is visited by an. 
 Inspector from the Medical Officer of Health, and is- 
 given a vessel in which to spit his sputum, which he is. 
 supposed to carry about with him. 
 
 10875. So far as you know, no discrimination would 
 be made in such visitation between the common con- 
 sumption, which anybody is subject to, and grinder's- 
 consumption ? — No, there is no' distinction. 
 
 10876. (Chairman.) What are the difficulties whicb 
 you refer to ? — The consumption, I believe, and I have- 
 been amongst it all my life, and have seen scores of 
 cases, is due to our bad workshops. They are defec- 
 tively constrxicted. In many cases they ai-e made out 
 of old house property, which is no longer fit for human, 
 hatbitation, and there are no sanitary requirements.. 
 Then, many of the men are practically independent. 
 They go to the warehouse of their eimployer for their 
 work, aiid take it to, perhaps, in many cases, an en- 
 tirely different factory to where it is given out — ^what: 
 is known in Sheffield as the " tenement factory." They 
 pay a certain amoimt for the use of that room, wittf 
 power varying from 3s. 6d. to 7s. per trough, depend- 
 ing upon the class of grindiug. There is a difficulty in- 
 dealing with these men, 'because they .are really, in a- 
 sense, employers, althaugh, under the Compensation- 
 Act, many firms make a reduction to cover liability; 
 so, I suppoise, if they had a stone break and an acci- 
 dent happened, they would come under the Compensa- 
 tion Act. It is a point that I have not really con- 
 sidered very much. 
 
 10877. Is your point that the workman would have- 
 to look for his compensation to a very small employer ?" 
 — No, that was not my point, because he might have- 
 to look to a very large employer as well. 
 
 10878. Then what is the special difficulty of schedul- 
 ing this disease which arises from this method of con- 
 ducting the industry ? — I think it would be a rather- 
 complicated question. For instance, we are supposed 
 by law to have a fan to carry off the dust. The man. 
 himself is responsible for the efficient working of the- 
 fan. Now, the fan, I believe, is a powerful factor in 
 preventing consumption by taking the dust away ; and 
 if the man neglects it, how would the thing stand then ?' 
 If he neglects to provide an efficient fan, and our sys- 
 tem of factory inspection is such that it is practically 
 no use, it does not seem to me -to be quite fair to say 
 that an employer, who never sees the place the man 
 may be working in, should be responsible for the mis- 
 doings of -that man. 
 
 10879. But would not these men be outworkers? — 
 Yes. 
 
 10880. And they would not come under the Act at 
 all. They are not workmen within the meaning of the 
 Workmen's Compensation Act, either as regards acci- 
 dent or disease. That ^se, the reason why Parliament 
 excluded them, because the employer had no control 
 over the manner in which the work was carried on. 
 Therefore, you can put aside from your consideration 
 that class of men al-tx)g€ther ? — Then, let me take the- 
 inworkers. 
 
 16881. You would have the workers in the factories; 
 and the one or two' workpeople, journeymen, who would 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 345 
 
 be employed by the small tenement factory employer— 
 t^ose would be th© two classes who alone would be 
 considered. Is not that so ?— Yes, I suppose that would 
 be so ; and, so far ae they are concerned, I see no diflB.- 
 culty whatever in scheduling them. But I was taking 
 the question on tl^o whole and the case of the man 
 working on his employer's premises — ^and that is be- 
 coming more and more the custom in Sheffield. 
 Hitherto it was the exception for an employer to have 
 his imen gathered under one roof; there the employer 
 does iind a wheel, for which the mam pays u rent, but 
 the man finds his own tools. 
 
 10862. Can the employer discharge them ? — Yes. 
 
 10883. And h© pays him his wages ? — He pays him 
 piecework. 
 
 10884. There is a contract of service, is there P — 
 There is a contract of sei-vice, with a custom of giving 
 and taking, generally, a month's notice. 
 
 10885. Are you sure that the grinder is the em- 
 ployere' workman, and not merely the employer's 
 tenant ? — No, he is the employer's workman. 
 
 10886. When accidents happen nowadays does he 
 get compensation ? — He would, though I do not remem- 
 ber a case. 
 
 10887. Are there never any accidents amongst these 
 workpeople ? — ^Plenty ; but I do not know of a case 
 coming under the Workmen's Compensation Act yet. 
 
 10888. YoTi have never heard of a case in Sheffield 
 of one of these workpeople getting compensation under 
 the Workmen's Oompensation Act, although he is work- 
 ing in a grinding factory? — No, I cannot call one to 
 mind just at the moment. 
 
 10889. You are sure, are you, that the relation be- 
 tween the workman and the employer, the owner of the 
 factory is not that of a contractor and tenant rather 
 tiian that of a workman? — Quite sure. The proof of 
 that is that some few years ago one of the firms was 
 sued by a man for not paying him wages when they were 
 stocktaking, and the man recovered for loss of time. 
 During the time of stocktaking no work is given out. 
 Ill some firms I know it is customary to give the men 
 notice to terminate their engagement, which woTild 
 expire at the commencemeiut of stocktaking. It is 
 quite understood that that is to guard the employer 
 from Ibeing sued for loss of time. 
 
 10890. I am greatly surprised to learn that you have 
 never had any case in the last ten years to your know- 
 ledge in which a man has recovered money for an acci- 
 dent under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Have 
 not you had wheels burst t — Yes. 
 
 10891. And men being injured 2 — ^Yes ; but I do not 
 remember a case where a grinder has got oompensation 
 from his employer for an accident. He could do so, and 
 I base that on knowledge of oases I know. And I know 
 that a certain sum weekly, about 2d. per man, is de- 
 ducted from the wages for insurance for that purpose. 
 
 10892. I may say there is some doubt as to whether 
 your 'view is the correct one, and whether these men 
 are-workmen or not?— 'I know. There is a case pend- 
 ing now in the Ooiunty Court of a spring knife grmder 
 at one of the large firms which was tried a fortnight 
 ago, and on which the County Court judge has not yet 
 given ihis decision. That is a case of an employer and 
 his workman, and in that particular case they were 
 finding a man three days work a week and charging 
 him full rent, and he sued them for the difference. 
 The plea set up by the firm was that this man was a 
 contractor and not a workman, and the decision has 
 not yet been given. 
 
 10893 The relation between the small tenement fac- 
 tory owner and his one or two journeymen is clearly 
 a relation of employer and employed, is it not f— les. 
 
 10894. And if this disease were scheduled the jour- 
 neyman would be able to obtain compensation from 
 his pao-tiouiar employer, if the employer were m a 
 position to pay, that is ?— That is the point. 
 
 10805. Are you aware that in the early stages of 
 oansumpfdon it is very difficult to s^y„ whether the man 
 is developing consumption or whether he is merely 
 *afiering from cooigh or bronchitis. A man m that 
 condition may go. on for some years, .^^y he not^ 
 Yes, it varies very largely ; sometimes it develops very 
 quickly, and at other times it taies longer. 
 
 10896 At all events there is a period in the progress 
 of the iilne«s^^^hen no one can say whether it is going 
 to dweloplnto. phthisis or whether it is not. Is not 
 
 419 
 
 that so? The man has symptoms which may be the m. 
 
 preliminary symptoms of phthisis and which may not? ffoMum. 
 -I su,ppose doctors say that, and we are starting with ^"f!!!^ 
 Idea in Sheffield. I hajppen to he a member of 23 April i907. 
 
 our City Council, and we are starting now a sana- 
 
 torium, but it is a kind of what one may term a clear- 
 ing-house business. The idea is to locate people sus- 
 pected of It m this building to examine them ; then if 
 they are really found to be consumptive and sanatorium 
 treatment would do them good, to keep them for a time 
 and draft them back. 
 
 10897. Supposing this disease were scheduled, and 
 employei-s were made liable to pay compensation when- 
 ever it was ascertained, what would Ibe the position of 
 an employer who had a man who was somewhat asth- 
 ma,tical, as one may say, and who suffered from short- 
 ness 01 breath, with a cough in the winter and a little 
 bronchitis. The employer would know that if that 
 developed into fibrosis he would perhaps have to pay 
 the man half wages for the rest of his life, and if he 
 died he would have to pay three years' wages. Do you 
 think there would be any probability that employers 
 would refuse to go on employing such men and would 
 discharge them before the disease was clearly estab- 
 lished to be fibrosis, and before the compensation could 
 be claimed ? — It seems to be a natural tendency. If an 
 employer saw a man coughimg very badly, he would 
 naturally think he would get rid of that man, espe- 
 cially as he would only have to give him a month's 
 notice. 
 
 10898. What would become of that man ?— I suppose 
 the sajme as all the rest — ^the workhouse. 
 
 10899. Would he be able to get any employment any- 
 where else ?— Probably under the tenement system. 
 
 10900. But how would he be able to get employment 
 when anybody knew that perhaps he might be liable 
 to pay him half wages if he became incapacitated ? — If 
 the man was working for the employer on the firm, he 
 would be a direct workman of the firm, and "supposing 
 he got the work and took it away to a tenement factory 
 to do, it is a question whether he would be a workman 
 or not. 
 
 10901. He, would become a isimall employer himself, 
 or do the work independently, you mean? — Yes. I 
 doi not know whether that would clear him or not. 
 
 10902. If he coiild get the oaipital ? — It requires no 
 capital really. A man with a few pounds could get a 
 set of tools', and if he had not th© money he could get 
 work with someone else's tools. There would be no 
 difficulty in that way. 
 
 10903. Do you think it would be any advantage to 
 that man to have tJhis disease scheduled, because' he 
 would not get any oompeaisalion and would have lost 
 his employment? — I do not think the scheduling of a 
 disease is an advantage to a man Who has the disease 
 already ; but I take it that workmen's compensation 
 and everything else is with the idea rather of prevent- 
 ing than curing, and I can see many advantages with 
 regard to the in-workers in scheduling th© disease. 
 The employer would be compelled to provide better 
 workshops and workrooms. 
 
 10904. But whenever he found that any man was 
 showing th© preliminary symptoms of phthisis — ^which 
 may last four or five years — ^he might get rid of that 
 man, and never pay any compensation at all, mi^ht he 
 not? — But if it could 'be shown that the man had the 
 germs of the disease before the employer could get rid 
 of him ? 
 
 10905. Certainly — he could then claim compensation. 
 But the point is that this particular disease very fre- 
 quently, indeed as a rule, takes a long period before it 
 develops ordinary tuberculous symptoms. Supposing 
 the fibrosis takes a very long period, what the Com- 
 mittee are afraid of is, that, while the disease is in 
 its early stages, invariably the man would be dis- 
 charged ?^Yes, I daresay there would be that danger. 
 
 10906. And consequently no one would get any com- 
 pensation. There would be no pressure on the em- 
 ployer to improve the conditions, and the only result 
 would be that a considerable number of men, who 
 might not develop fibrosis at all, as a matter of faeft, 
 would be thrown out of employment?^ — Yes, I see, of 
 course, there is that danger. 
 
 10907. Do you think it is a real danger ? — I think it 
 is a real danger. 
 
 10908. Looking at it solely from the point of view 
 of the workmen, admitting that the workman has 
 
 2X 
 
346 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE : 
 
 Mr. 
 Holwighaw. 
 
 23AprU1907. 
 
 a perfectly just claim against the employer for 
 compensation for fibrosis, and that Parliament would 
 be fully entitled to call upon his employer to pay, do 
 you think, taking all the circumstances intO' considera- 
 tion, it is to the advantage of the workmen in the 
 trade that this disease should be scheduled 2 — I am 
 rather inclined to think not. I think it would be 
 scarcely to the workman's advantage. I can see many 
 disadvantages ; and it is not the same as an accident. 
 I do not know what course is proposed' in .the other 
 trades, I am sure ; but I suppose our trade in Sheffield 
 is peculiar to Sheffield. 
 
 10909. Tour trade stands on the same footing as 
 ganister mining, tin mining, and stonemasons' work, 
 and the potteries. Those are the trades in which 
 fibrosis is particularly prone to develop from dust? — ■ 
 What, of course, I am concerned in more than any- 
 thing else is to prevent it ; and anything that would 
 make our workshops better, and make the employers 
 show more consideration for the men, and the men to 
 show greater consideration for themselves — which I 
 am sorry to say is not' always the case — would be an 
 advantage to us, and help' to stamp it out. It is 
 terrible with us. I have been secretary to my trade 
 for 13 or 14 years, and with only aibout 190' men in 
 the trade, I can reckon up easily over 100 who have 
 died, the bulk of them of consumption, during that 
 period, and we always have them, and have them 
 now, in that state. 
 
 10910. {Mr. Cunynghame.) I suppose conditions have 
 improved in the last, say, 15 years? — ^It is very diffi- 
 cult to say. I have a man who came on our sick fund 
 only a fortnight ago with the first symptoms. 
 
 10911. But things have improved generally, I sup- 
 pose, "within the last 15 years? — I should not like to 
 say they have. 
 
 10912. You' can recollect 16 yeans ago in Sheffield, 
 and can recollect what the grinding of bicycles was, I 
 suppose ? — I am speaking of the cutlery tradfe. 
 
 10913. You do not know much about grinding of 
 big articles, such as bicycles and fenders? — There has 
 been none done in Sheffield really worth speaking 
 about. Ours is grinding knives, files, and edged tools. 
 
 10914. And razors ? — ^That is included in cutlery. 
 
 10915. With regard to these tenement factories, a 
 large number of the men, I suppose, are really employ- 
 ing men under them ? — ^Yes. 
 
 10916. That used not to he so in the old days, used 
 it ? — ^Yes, more so than it is now. 
 
 10917. Are they greatly diminishing in numiber? — 
 There used to be more of the team system than there 
 is to-day. 
 
 10918. Then it is a difficult thing to say of a man 
 who is working with his own tools, but with power 
 supplied by the employer, whether he is a workman 
 himself or a factory occupier, is it not ? — ^No. I know 
 the point is a disputed one, but it seems to me to be 
 clear to say that if I work, as I used to work, as an 
 out-worker, and find my own tools, and pay a rent for 
 the work, and they pay me a fitxed piece price, which is 
 a custom of hundreds of years, I am a workman to all 
 intents and purposes. 
 
 10919. That is the point which is difficult to decide— 
 whether you are not a, con tractor, working, it is true, 
 under their roof, and paying for power, but really an, 
 independent man on your own hook ? — Yes. 
 
 10920. (Chairman.) Can they determine what work 
 you shall do, or do you determine it yourself? — It is 
 generally a question of custom. It is recognised that 
 a certain man dbes a particular class of work. 
 
 1092il. (Mr. Cunynghame.) 'Supposing you choose to 
 do your work rather industriously, land work away on 
 Monday and Tuesday, and give yourself a holiday on 
 Friday, you have a perfect right to do so? — ^Yes, so has 
 a day man. 
 
 10922. And you could bring in a man under you, if 
 you liked, and pay him a wage agreed upon between 
 you, to assist you in doing any part of the work, or 
 in doing the whole of it? — ^No, not the whole of it. 
 The employer would begin to say something. 
 
 10923. Not if it was equally well done, would he ? — I 
 suppose not ; but at the same time, he would take me 
 as being responsible for it. 
 
 10924. Yes, you would be responsible ; but the ques- 
 
 tion ie whether you would be his workman or sub- 
 contractor. Those tenement factories, or a number of 
 them, are in a bad condition as to dust, are they not> 
 at present? — ^Yes. 
 
 10925. And the half-wet work is as had as any part 
 of it, is it not? — Yes. But of course it is the dry 
 grinding that is the trouble, "where you swallow the 
 particles of dust and steel given ofi in the work. We 
 have never heard the question raised until just reosntly 
 as to whether we were workmen or whether we are 
 contractors. 
 
 10926. It is pretty clear, is it not, that, supposing 
 the tenement worker, as I will call him, emjploys a 
 man under him, he would be liable to that man under 
 the Workmen's Compensation Act? — It is clear that 
 the journeyman is a workman ; there can be no dispute 
 about that. 
 
 10927. And his master is the tenement tenant? — 
 Yes ; he pays him so much per hour. He is the 
 tenant, it may be, of a public company, who ovm the 
 grinding wheel. But I do not see that difficulty myself 
 in the case of a firm which employs a great many men 
 on its own premises, and allows them to work for no 
 one else. 
 
 10928. Has not it also become the custom now fot 
 the owner of the tenement factory to provide against 
 the liability of the tenant to his own under- workmen ? 
 — Not in the case of a tenement f acory. 
 
 10929. I have known of one or two cases of it? — ^I 
 have not ; and I should not think it necessary either. 
 
 10930. But then they get a solid man to look to, do 
 not you see ? — Yes. 
 
 10931. (Professor Allbutt.) Whether it be desirable 
 to schedule fibrosis or not, you speak positively, I 
 understand, of its prevalence, and that it does occur? 
 — Yes, I do. 
 
 10932. To a serious extent ? — A very serious extent. 
 
 10933. Do you say that, not speaking as a medical 
 man, but as a general observer, it means som'Sthing 
 different from the common consumption which occurs 
 among the general public ? — Yes ; I am speaking 
 strictly of what we find amongst the grinders, and 
 nothing else. 
 
 10034. Are you disposed-, as far as lay information 
 goes, to say that the two can be distinguished, and 
 that they are somewhat difierent? — I could not say 
 that. I have had no experience of consumption except 
 among grinders. 
 
 10935. You said that sometimes grinder's phthisis is 
 rapid, and sometimes it is very slow ? — ^Yes ; we have 
 had men on our sick fund for three or four years with 
 it, and we have had them on not more than three 
 months, and even less than that, before they have 
 died. 
 
 10936. When you say, " On your books," do you draw 
 any distinction between common phthisis and grinder's 
 phthisis? — No, we cannot. If we excluded phthisis 
 from our sick pay we should ibe excluding one-half of 
 our membars protoalbly, because it is what they nearly 
 all ultimately suffer from. If I tell you that probably 
 out of our 190 men, roughly speaking, we have not 
 more than 25 over 50 years of age, and not 10 over 60 
 years of age, and none over 70 years of age, it shows 
 how they must die off very young. 
 
 10937. It used to be said that they ai-e a very intem- 
 perate class of men ? — There is very little intemperance 
 among the men. 
 
 10938. At any rate, are you under the impression 
 that the reason why the average age is so low is be- 
 cause of dust phthisier' — ^Yes; aud I do think, and I 
 have told our men so again and again, that they are 
 very much to blame, ifiey do not keep their places as 
 clean as they ought to do, and they do not use their 
 fans as they ougjht to do. At the same time, it is very 
 difficult, when you consider the floors are simply mud 
 flooi-s, which, at every step you take, causes a lot of 
 dust, BO you woiuld have to be sweeping all the day to 
 keep the places oleaai ; they ought to- be concrete Aootb. 
 
 10939. Speaking generally, grinder's phthisis is a very 
 slow process, is it not ? — It varies so much. I can only 
 speak from what I know of my own friends dying from 
 it. I knew one of the best workmen, and steadieet in 
 otir trade, who never tasted a drop of drink in his life, 
 who was three or four years on our funds before he 
 died, and he had every care. In another casie, a young 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 347 
 
 fellow died a little whil© ago at 23, and he waa only 
 on sick pay three months. 
 
 lOMO. Have you any knowledge as to whether these 
 two andividuals died from common consumption or 
 grinders consumption?—! only know they were 
 grinders, and worked, prohably, from very early years 
 at the trade. 
 
 10941. (Dr. Legge.) Do I gather that you want the 
 relation of the workman and the employer under the 
 same roof to be extended and the tenement system to 
 , gradually cease ? — Yes. I would prefer to see the tene- 
 ment system done away with. 
 
 10042. And the workmen in one factory under an 
 employer ? — Yes ; I think that, on the whole, would be 
 better. 
 
 10943. Do you think that scheduling the disease 
 might hinder that tendency which is going on now, 
 owing to the responsibility that the employer would 
 feel in regard to the disease P — No, I do not think so, 
 because the employer has so many other advantages by 
 having his men close at hand in getting his work 
 through more quickly. 
 
 10944. So that even the reason of having to compen- 
 sate the workmen would not hinder him? — ^We find 
 that since the Workmen's Compensation Act has come 
 into force, the tendency for the employer to build a 
 factory and get his men there is still going on. You 
 have to bear in mind that it pays to do that. A grinding 
 wheel property pays very well ; and when you remember 
 that every tenant, both cutler and grinder, pays his 
 employer a rent, it means a very good interest on the 
 outlay, plus the convenience of having the men there 
 and being able to superintend the work more readily. 
 
 10345. (Chairman.) Which class of grinders are the 
 members of your society ?■ — ^Our society consists of 
 scissors grinders. In S>heiBeld each branch of the 
 grinding trade has a union to itself ; we have a Scissors 
 Grinders' Union, a Pocket Blade Grindters' Union, and 
 a Razor Grinders' Union. 
 
 10946. You speak on behalf of the Sheffield United 
 Cutlery Council, do you? — ^Yes, what applies to one 
 class practically applies to all. 
 
 10947. Does your council include all the unions you 
 have iientioned? — It includes, besides my own, the 
 razor, the edged tools and files, and cutlers. 
 
 10948. Which class of working people in those trades 
 does your society include — does it include the owners 
 of the little outwork shop, or their journeymen, or the 
 occupiers of the tenement factories? — It includes all 
 the workmen, whether they are journeymen or whether 
 
 they are pieceworkers, whether they work in the tene^ j^^ 
 
 ment factories or on the employer's premises. Solmthaw. 
 
 10949. Does your union include a largo proportion of , — t:»„, 
 all of those?— It includes a very fair proportion; we ^^ AprU 19 07. 
 have not got them all in. 
 
 10950. Have you considered who should pay the com- 
 pensation if this disease were scheduled? I suppose 
 a man will work for several employers over a period of 
 10 or 15 years sometimee? — Yes, and the man who 
 works in the tenement factory may work for several 
 employers at the same time, but not a man who works 
 on the employer's factory. 
 
 10951. Then who do you think should pay the com- 
 pensation? — There is only one, and that is the 
 employer. 
 
 10952. But if the disease has been going on for 10 
 years, and he has worked for four or five different em- 
 ployers during that time, who ooight to pay the com- 
 pensation? — I suppose the last. It is a complicated 
 matter, I know. 
 
 10953. But, on the whole, you ane inclined .to think, 
 as I understand, that in the interests of the men them- 
 selves it might be better to proceed by way of preven- 
 tion of the disease raAher than by way of compensa- 
 tion? — I think so, if we could have that— if it comes 
 within the scope of the Committee. 
 
 10954. It does not come within the scope of the Com- 
 mittee, but it does come within the scope of this De- 
 partment. You have no statistics with regard to the 
 prevalence of phthisis amongst your members, hav© 
 you ? — No, we have, unfortiunately, not kept any. 
 
 10955. Do you think that what you have been saying 
 with reference to the inclusion of this disease in the 
 schedule represents the views of the workmen in the 
 trade generally ? — We have not discussed it, so I could 
 not say. 
 
 10956. Do you know whether any others take 
 strongly the contrary view that the disease shovdd be 
 included? — No, it has never come before our cutlery 
 council. Of course, it will come before them after this. 
 
 10957. Were you not aware that this Committee was 
 sitting, and that, the matter had been discussed in 
 Parliament, and that the question was pending ? — ^Yes, 
 I was aware of that, but we did not seem to have any 
 direct interest in it. I did not know that I should be 
 asked to come. 
 
 10958. No one on your council thought it necessary 
 tO' approach this Oommitte© or the Home Office in order 
 to get the disease scheduled' ? — No, we have not. 
 
 Mr. A. jM. Smith, LL.B., on behalf of the Engineering Employers' Federation, and the Shipbuilding Em- 
 ' ployers' Federation, and Mr. A. Siemens, of Siem ens Brothers and Company, Limited, Electrical En- 
 gineers, called and examined. 
 
 10950. (Chairman.) Mr. Siemens, are you a director 
 of the firm of Messrs. Siemens, electrical engineers ?— 
 (Mr. Siemens.) Yes. 
 
 10960. And are you chairman of the Parliamentary 
 Committee of the Engineering Employers' Federation? 
 —Yes. 
 
 10961. Are you a solicitor, Mr. Smith, acting on 
 behalf of the Engineering Employers' Federation and 
 the Shipbuilding Employers' Federation ?—(iVf. Smith.) 
 Yes. 
 
 10962. The Committee have had under consideration 
 the question of scheduling fibrosis caused by the in- 
 halation of various dusts, amongst which are iron and 
 steel dusts. Can you tell m© whether you consider 
 this complaint occurs amongst the workpeople m your 
 industry ?— (Mr. Siemens.) Very seldom. I have madie 
 particular inquiries at our works, where we at times 
 often employ upwards of 3,000 men, and our works 
 mainager does not recollect to have had one single case 
 during the 40 years the works have been going. 
 
 10063. Therefore, if this disease were scheduled you 
 would not have to pay anything in the way of com- 
 pensation, would you.?— The difficulty which we fore- 
 see is thait if you injolude more diseases which may arise 
 you will give encouragement to all sorts of people to 
 pretend that they hav© the disease, and we shall have 
 to prove that they have not. There are always sea- 
 lawyers, or whatever you like to call them, amongst 
 half-©duca*ed' people, and if you give them an opening 
 they will take advantage of it. 
 
 10964. You are afraid of a number of bog:us claims, 
 419 
 
 are you ? — Yes. The more avenues you give them the 
 easier it is for them to raise bogus claims. 
 
 10965. What is the view of your Federation generally 
 with regard to the inclusion of fibrosis in the schedule ? 
 — That if the disease is to be scheduled it should be 
 strictly confined to workmen whose principal occupa- 
 tion is grinding and using the various modes of grind- 
 ing stones, emery wheels, and other wheels, and bo on. 
 
 10966. If a limit of hours were fibced, and a certain 
 number of hours per week named, which would con- 
 stitute a man a grinder, would that meet your views. 
 For instance, if a man was engaged eight hours a week in 
 grinding he might contract dust phthisis, I suppose ? — 
 I do not deny the possibility that he might ; he might 
 get it in three months, but the difficulty is to keep the 
 time. There are men whose principal occupation is 
 grinding ; in some works there are men specially ap- 
 pointed for grinding tools. They would be classed as 
 grinders witnout question. In other places, again, 
 every workman, grinds his own tools, and there are 
 stones distributed for convenience sake all through 
 the workshop, and it would be very awkward to keep 
 the time of how long each workman goes to any parti- 
 cular grindstone to arrive at the eight hours. 
 
 10967. But if the schedule were limited to men who 
 were really grinders in the ordinary acceptation of the 
 term however it might be framed in legal languag*, 
 and if the burden of proof was thrown upon the work- 
 man to show that he had the disease, do you see great 
 objection to scheduling it from the employers' point 
 of view? — ^No, I ibelieve in a way it is perfectly right 
 that it should 'be scheduled, only the existence of the 
 
 2X2 
 
 ilr. A. M. 
 
 Smith, LL.B., 
 
 and Mr. A. 
 
 Siemens. 
 
348 
 
 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE: 
 
 Mr. A. M. disease should not be a proof thafthe workman got it 
 SMtth,- LL.B., from his occupation, unless he is habitually employed 
 andtM'r- .4, as a grinder. 
 
 - -^'" ' 10968. The preliminary symptoms of the disease may 
 
 23 April 1907. ^^^^ ^°^' ^™« years before the nature of the illness can 
 
 be clearly ascertained. Do you think that employers 
 
 would be at all tempted to dismiss their workmen if 
 they showed preliminary symptoms which might lead 
 "up to fibrosis, and entitle them to claim, comipensation ? 
 — That is really a question whether by extending this 
 qompensation generally you do not directly force Uie 
 employer to do such things. I believe ifchat a good deal 
 of the non-eanployment is caused in that way. The 
 men say we do not care about employing men 
 who are either old or in any way defective physically, 
 because they are liable to land us in claims under the 
 Compensation Act, and it is not at all unlikely, if aji 
 employer saw doubtful symptoms, he would dismiss the 
 man. Of course, if there were decided symptoms of 
 the disease the man would have a claim, and it is not 
 »t all unlikely that the employers would like to have 
 medical examination compulsory of all men who are 
 taken on. It works both ways. 
 
 10969. Do you know of any cases of injury to eye- 
 sight occurring amongst men engaged in electric weld- 
 ing? — ^I know that if you look at an arc light long 
 enough your eyes ibegin to ache, and there is some 
 gathering, but I do not reooUeot any case where it has 
 led to any permanent injury. 
 
 10970. Have you known cases in which men have had 
 to give up working for ,same days owing to injury to 
 eyes due to this cause ? — If they have persisted in going 
 on looking into the light when it is too strong and the 
 eyes begin to ache — if you go on you may be disabled 
 for two or three days. 
 
 10071. And it is enitirely within the man's option, I 
 suppose ; he need not go on unless he likes ? — ^Yes. 
 And anyone who has had anything to do with electric 
 light knows it is dangerous to look into the light, and 
 they do not do it. 
 
 10972. Are the men who' are engaged in electric 
 welding provided with glasses which would protect 
 them ? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 10973. (Professor Allbutt.) Do they use them ; is it 
 compulsory ? — I do not think it is compulsory, but they 
 have the sense to use them. 
 
 10974. (Chairman.) Do you get many cases or any 
 cases? — No, practically none, because they all know of 
 it. I am speaking of a long time ago, in 1878 and 
 1879, when I made some experiments with arc lamps, 
 measuring the intenisity, and so foilh, and I got 
 that disease or eye ache, and I know of two or three 
 others, but when it had happened half a dozen times 
 people began to take care, and did not look intO' the 
 light. But it is nothing dangerous, I think ; it does 
 not injure the eyes for any length of time. 
 
 10975. Mr. Smith, you have heard Mr. Siemens' 
 evidence, do you agree with its purport? — (Mr Smith.) 
 Yes ; I might perhaps be allowed to amplify it toi some 
 extent. I understand that you took medical evidence 
 on three diseases — first the caisson disease, secondly 
 the fibrosis amongst grinders, and thirdly neu- 
 rosis, due to vibration as afiecting our trade parti- 
 cularly. With regard to caisson' disease, we suggest 
 you shonld alter the name of it to compressed air 
 disease, because the name is misleading. Then we sug- 
 gest that regulations should be issued by the Home 
 Office preventing the men going into the pressure if they 
 are unwell, or if they are suffering from previous 
 illness, or if they are under the influence of liquor. 
 We find that the majority of oases oi compressed air 
 disease are due to- these causes, and there should be 
 also regulations as toi the precautions to be observed 
 on entering and leaving the (pressure. (Mr. Siemens.) 
 Workmen do not like to be in the air lock for a long 
 time, and therefore they make openings for themselves, 
 take bolts out, and so forth, so as to reduce the pres- 
 sure very often. If they are compelled to remain a 
 long time in the air lock, and a certain time elapses 
 before the pressure is reduced, then there is very much 
 less danger ; they should also be compelled on coming 
 out, to lie down for five minutes. 
 
 10976. Does the time in the air lock count as part 
 of their working time? — (Mr. Smith.) Yes. There will 
 be no difficulty about that, and it will be infinitely to 
 OUT advantage, because we have known of cases where 
 men have withdrawn, the bolts in order to reduce the 
 pressure. 
 
 10977. (Professor 'Allbutt.) Then they can suriiepti- 
 
 tiously make openings, can they? — (Mr. Siemens.) Yes. 
 (Mr. Smith.) The chambers are very strong, butther© are 
 bolts holding down the mountings, which they remove. 
 
 10978. Is not it possible to take the entire control 
 out of the hands of the employees? — They have really 
 nothing to do with it. They have no control over the 
 air pressure — ^tliey should go into the lock and remain 
 there until the pressure is sufficient to allow them to 
 open the door and get outside, (because until the pies- 
 sure fails the door cannot be opened. 
 
 10979-80. Then how can they make any change in the 
 pressure ? — They can only do so by interfering with the 
 Dolts. The instance I referred to was a case of inter- 
 fering with the bolts, unscrewing the bolts, so that the 
 pressure gets out by (means other than legitimate 
 means. The difficulty might be got over, and we sug- 
 gest they should ibe tied up by regulatio(nis as to hoiw 
 they ai'e to go in and come out of the pressure 
 locte. With regard to fibrosis, reference has been 
 made to the question of grinding tools, but that is not 
 by any means the most important part of the grinding 
 that is done in engine works. A great part of it now is 
 done where filing used to be done. It is much faster 
 and much easier for a man, if he is fitting two pieces 
 of metal together, instead of, as under the old system, 
 getting a file and rubbing down the (bit jutting out, to 
 put it on to a wheel. This is not confi(ned to any 
 single department ; for the convenience of the work- 
 men the wheels are put about the shops. The grinding of 
 tools may ibe confined to a single department, and some 
 establishments do all that by special men. In other 
 cases men who have the tools grind their own. Then 
 there is another point. If this regulation is to be made 
 to apply generally it means that anybody employed in 
 the engine works is subject to the disease, and that is 
 a burden which we think should not be placed an the 
 employers, because if these particles fly, they will fly 
 right through the shop, and we contend that this lung 
 disease is only found, or is usually foiund, where the 
 air 'becomes imprsgnated with these dust particles, 
 owing to confined space and bad ventilation. These 
 conditions do not prevail in engine works — they are 
 entirely different, and must be on account of the size 
 of the products. Then with regard to the question of 
 regulations, we suggest that regulations should be 
 made by the Home Office, making it compulsory upon' 
 the men to use the precautions which are provided for 
 them. I might instance a case where the employer at 
 some works put up a ventilation fan, and laid a duct 
 under the floor to several grinding machines, and 
 branches were taken off this duct to hoods, over the 
 grinding wheel. That fan and apparatus had not besn 
 going very long before it was deliberately blocked by 
 the workmen themselves. (Mr. Siemens.) That was to 
 suok away the particles. It was not to blow air into 
 the shop, but it was to kesp the dust away from the 
 workmen. (Mr. Smith.) Then we suggest some defini- 
 tion should be given to the expression, " Silicious or 
 metallic particles," because in an engine works or 
 foundry, even the dust on the floor is silicious or 
 metallic. Also that a definition should be given 
 to grinding and also to grinders, and that 
 grinders should (be those whose principal occupation is 
 grinding, and who do not do such work merely as 
 ancillary to their own occupation. 
 
 10981. Do I understand from you that instead of 
 men leaving their work to go to grind their own tools 
 incidentally, there is also a system by which all the 
 tools are ground by certain people ? — ^Yes, in some 
 eista;blishments. That is where the number of tools 
 and the amount of grinding necessary makes it desir- 
 aJble that they should have a special department for 
 that work. Our point is that occasional grinders 
 should not ibe included. Then on tte question of 
 neurosis, d'ue to vibration, that is a subject on which 
 we have considerable apprehension. There would be 
 extreme difficulty in defining what aeurosis is, and 
 what is the cause of it. Take, for example, the nervous 
 condition which would be set up by direct impact — ^for 
 example in handling of pneumatic tools for oaulking 
 or rivetting, there is a direct impact, and there 
 might ibe a local condition set up in a man's arm, but 
 then again, if you consider the question of rivetting 
 in confined spaces, and the enormous vibration and 
 nois3 going on, it very much affects not only the man 
 rivetting, but all others within the vibrating zone. 
 If you are going to include these men, you will have to 
 include practically everyone in the ship yards and 
 engine shops. In the engine shops you have the 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 549 
 
 :miachmery revolving, and if you have to include all 
 tnat It means you will set up a state of affairs that will 
 give Tise to an enormous amount of fraud, because 
 any man, not feeling very well, will say he is suffering 
 froni some nervous complaint, and it will b© q.uite 
 possible, from a medical point of view, to assume that 
 that nervous oompfaint was neurosis, due to vibration. 
 
 10982. There is a difference, is there not,, between 
 the vague allegation of general vibration and a man 
 using his hand in some particular fashion, such as 
 -driving •with a tool which jars the hand?— That would 
 he duo to impact, and would be local entirely. 
 
 10983. The use of a limb, such as the hand, with a 
 -continual jarring motion, would be much easier to 
 distinguish than the case you put ? — Yes, but the symp- 
 loms are almost entirely subjective. 
 
 10984. But they would be local symptoms,, would they 
 not, in the case I refer to? — ^I do not know sufficient 
 about it to answer that. 
 
 10985. There would 'be a sprain of the ligaments ?— 
 That would be an extraordinary case, but we know of 
 no such cases. When pneumatic tools first came out 
 -we heard a goodl deal about the eSoct of dirl. 
 
 10986. "What would the man be doing ?— Pneumatic 
 livetting, but those tools were discarded long ago for 
 "that very reason. 
 
 10987. (Mr. Cunynghame.) How would you define an 
 •occasional grinder for the purpose of inclusion? Sup- 
 posing it ibeoame necessary to consider the qtiestion of 
 •scheduling, you have said that an occasional grinder 
 
 should not be included ? — ^It has been suggested that 
 an arbitrary number of hours should bs fixed. 
 
 10988. What would you think fair ?— With regard to 
 the question of an aribitrary number of hours, we have 
 gone into it very carefully, and the advice of our 
 people is that it would be wholly impracticable. For 
 
 • example, take the case of a fitter, who, instead of filing 
 up his job, just puts it on to a wheel, he might be 
 
 ■ engaged for only two- or three minutes ; he might be 
 at that wheel a dozen or two dozen times a day, or he 
 might be three-quarters of his time going and coming 
 from that wheel ; how are we to keep' a record of the 
 time? When he leaves his job to go to the wheel it 
 might be engaged, by someone else, and ha might have 
 
 "to wait five or ten minutes. Is all that to be included ? 
 
 10989. That is what I am asking you. Supposing 
 it were said a man who grinds not less than eight 
 hours a week, should ba deemed an occasional grinder, 
 what would you say? — ^How would you keep a record 
 
 •of it? 
 
 10990. I suppose it would be a question of evidence ? 
 ■ — Supposing a man has got the disease, there is ai 
 ■presumption in his favour, and we have to rebut thart 
 presumption. 
 
 10991. He has th© disease, and the question is, is he 
 •-an occasional grinder or not? — He would say he was. 
 
 The question, then, comes to 'be when was the diseiase 
 'Oontractedi, and was he an occasional grinder within 
 iihe meaning of "the regulations at th© time. 
 
 .10991*. Much evidence has been given to show that 
 
 only a small amount of grinding carried on pereistently Mr 4 M 
 for a man's lifei will not give him the disease. I do not i'lnikfii b 
 say whether it is right or wrong?— It may. and Mr.' A. 
 
 10992. There is not much chance of a man getting ''Siemens 
 grinders' disease unless he is occupied a very consider- 23 A^nQo: 
 
 able portion of his time at th© work. Looking at th© -i . 
 
 matter from that point of view, it would be necessary 
 
 to say, then, those who ar© only occasionally grinding 
 ought not to come within any rule that is mad©, and 
 it then becomes necessai^ tO' inquire what do' you mean 
 by occasional grinding. You must tak© it as occasional 
 grinding at th© time the disease is contracted, must 
 you not?— We draw th© distinction between a grinder 
 as a igrinder. Th© giinder is a man whose principal 
 occupation is grinding. 
 
 10993. That will not do— that means more than half 
 th© timei; ie that what you mean?— No, a man whose 
 principal occupation is that of a grinder— a man who 
 is in th© works for the purpose of a grinder. 
 
 10994. Then th© definition now is a man who is called 
 a. grinder. That will not do, will it ?— A man whose 
 usual or permanent occupation or trad© is that of a 
 grinder; that leaves out th© occasional grinder alto- 
 gether. 
 
 IO1995. But th© definition is sO' vague that it conveys 
 nothing to my mind. Tak© a man who is in a byoycl© 
 factory. A large portion of th© work is don© by grind- 
 ing instead of with a file; a man whoi is engaged in 
 doing bicycle hubs is partly a fitter and partly a 
 grinder. You cannot say which is his main occupation, 
 can you, or it seems to m© it is very difficult. Th© 
 judge would say : " I do not know what you mean by 
 usual occupation " ; his usual occupation involves him 
 in about half work on each? — Whose usual or per- 
 manent occupation or trad© is grinding, and that the 
 grinding is not merely ancillary to his regiular work 
 would be a question of fact, which would have to be 
 gon© iuto' in ev©ry case, and each case would have to 
 stand on its own merits. Apart from th© definition of 
 gi-inders as gi-inders, what w© suggest is that these 
 occasional men should not be included. Th© difficulty j 
 
 w© find is th© question of keeping th© time. 
 
 10996. You say there is a difficulty in the whole 
 business from first to last, owing to> th© difficulty of 
 saying what an occasional grinder is and is not ? — Yes, 
 and th© absolute impracticability of keeping a reoord of 
 that man's time, beoaus© we should have to keep a 
 record for th© whol© twelve months, as w© could never 
 say when th© man was going to contract th© disease. 
 
 10997. (Professor Allbutt.) Do you think that fibroid 
 phthisis, or grinders' phthisis, is prevalent amongst 
 grinders in your trade ? — No' ; we have noi record of it 
 being by any means pr©val©nt. Of course, th©r© is this 
 to keep in view, if it is made th© subject of regulation 
 the attention of th© medical men will be directed to it, 
 but from inquiries w© have mad© at our various dis- 
 ■tricts, and particularly of medical men in th© districts 
 wh©r© w© thought it would b© m©t witn, we do not find 
 it provalent. 
 
 10998. Is it the general opinion that th© disease ie 
 mor© or k.s6 pr©valent ? — We do not find it so. 
 
 10999. From your own impression you would not say 
 that it is prevalent ? — No, our advice is the other way. 
 
350 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE : 
 
 THIRTY-NINTH DAY. 
 
 Monday, 6th May 1907. 
 
 Mr. Heebert Samuel, m.p. (Chairman). 
 Professor CLiproED Allbott, f.b.s. 
 
 MEMBEBS PRESENT : 
 
 Mr. T. M. Legge, m.d. 
 
 Mr. Feank Elliott (Secretary). 
 
 Mr. G. B. HiLLMAN, L.S.A., called and examined. 
 
 Mr. G. B. 
 
 Sillman, 
 
 L.S.A. 
 
 6 May 1907. 
 
 11000. (Chairman.) Are you in medical practice at 
 the present time? — ^Yes. 
 
 11001. Where ?— At Castleford, in Yorkshire. 
 
 11002. How many glass bottle works are there at 
 Castleford ? — There are two ordinary glass works work- 
 ing now, and there is one making the flint bottle, 
 •which does not quite apply to the question under dis- 
 cussion, hecause I do not think there is any sugges- 
 tion that flint ibottle hands get cataract at all. 
 
 11003. Did you furnish the certificates of the causes 
 of incapacity to the Glass Bottle Makers of Yorkshire 
 United Trade Protection Society, which the Committee 
 haveP — I did. 
 
 11004. Have you examined their members who have 
 come on the superannuation fund ? — Practically all 
 whoi have been superannuated during the last nine 
 yeai-s. There are a few that I have not examined, but 
 only a very few, about 5 out of the 114. 
 
 11005. Is the list which has been handed to the 
 Committee compiled from your certificates? — I believe 
 so. 
 
 11006. Do you consider there is any excessive inci- 
 dence of cataract amongst bottle workers ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 11007. Do you consider that is due to their employ- 
 ment ? — I think so. 
 
 11008. How do you think it arises ? — I do not know. 
 It may probably arise from the radiaait heat, when 
 they are exposed to very violent heat for a very con- 
 siderable time every day. 
 
 11009. Are there oases of eye illness other than 
 cataract due to that cause ? — I do not know. I do not 
 think eye diseases are excessive, as far as I know, 
 excepting cataract. 
 
 11010. Is there any distinguishing symptom in 
 these oasss of cataract which would enable them to be 
 differentiated from cases of cataract occurring to persons 
 not belonging to that trade ? — I do not think so. The 
 cases I saw for superannuation were advanced cases, 
 cases of men incapable of going on with their work on 
 that account, and therefore it was impossible for me 
 to say whether they were senile, or what kind of 
 cataracts they were. 
 
 11011. If you saw those casss in their earlier stages 
 could you tell what was the cause of the disease, and 
 whether it was due to the trade or otherwise ? — ^No, not 
 definitely ; one could not swear to it, I think. 
 
 11012. Would there be any indication at all ? — I really 
 ■cannot say, of my own knowledge. It is said to be so, 
 but whether it is so or not I do not know. 
 
 11013. Do you think there would be great doubt in 
 every case? — I should say so, to the ordinary practi- 
 tioner, at all events. 
 
 11014. Would an expert oculist bs able to find such 
 marked symptoms as would enable him to say, " This 
 is a case of cataract, due to the man's employment " ? 
 — I do not think so ; that is only my opinion, of course. 
 
 11015. Have you comis across cases of cataract among 
 bottle workers at an age earlier than it, is found among 
 the general population ?— As an average I would not 
 like to say so, but there are men of about 50 years of 
 age amongst them, who have advanced cataract, which 
 is rather early. 
 
 11016. Do you occasionally find similar cases at that 
 age amongst other people ? — Yes. 
 
 11017. But are you inclined to think it may come 
 more early amongst these men than amongst others ? — ■ 
 I think it is quite probable. 
 
 11018. If compensation were payable in respect of 
 these cases, would it be possible, in your opinion, for 
 a workman ever to he able to prove that his parti- 
 cular case of cataract was due to the trade? — No, 
 
 beyond the fact that he has been exposed to the heat: 
 for a certain number of years, I do not think he cculifc 
 prove it definitely. 
 
 11019. In other words, unless compensation were to- 
 be paid to all glass -workers who get cataract it could 
 not be paid to any ? — ^I do not think so. 
 
 11020. (Professor AUbutt.) You do not systematically 
 examine the workpeople, I understand, with a view to- 
 discovering the initial stage of cataract ? — No, I have ■ 
 not done so. Might I say also that these certificates- 
 were all compiled quite apart from any notion oi' 
 cataract as a trad© disease ; they were certificates - 
 simply given to superannuate the men. 
 
 11021. But, as a matter of experience, you have not 
 been called upon to examine all the men who are- 
 engaged in this industry, on the chance of some of 
 them suffering? — ^No. 
 
 11022. You speak fi-om having seen them only in the- 
 extreme stages, do you ? — ^Mostly. There are some • 
 cases of early cataracts. 
 
 11023. Have you seen any in quite the initial stage? 
 —I do not think so, because all the cataracts I have- 
 examined and certified have been sufficiently bad to 
 prevent a man doing his work. 
 
 11024. (Dr. Legge.) 1 notice that in two or three of 
 these cases you mention they are early cases of opacity ' 
 in the lenses? — ^Yee. 
 
 11025. Were those still not so early as to enable yo«; 
 to distinguish them ? — I did not think so. There were ■ 
 sufficiently bad to prevent a man seeing to do his work 
 in every case. 
 
 11026. Do you know of any instance where an 
 ophthalmic surgeon has examined an early case, and 
 decided that the signs were those of ordinary senile - 
 cataract, and not of posterior cortical ? — No, not in 
 practice. I have read of it, of course, in Dr. Robin- 
 son's report, but I have had no patients of my own. 
 
 11027. When a bottle finisher comes before you to be 
 examin-3d for permanent incapacity, 'do you examine- 
 always for cataract ? — ^Yes, I always do that. 
 
 11028. Is that because you have been so much struck 
 by its prevalence ? — ^Long before this inquiry I have ■ 
 been much struck with the prevalence of it. 
 
 11029. And if you found a cataract, would it strike ■ 
 you as being due to- anything else than the man's work?' 
 — ^I would not like to say that, because the age has 
 to toe considered, but the fact of a man having been a 
 bottle maker for a number of years would make one 
 rather suspicious that his work had something to do 
 with it. 
 
 11030. Not more than rather suspicious? — Well, 
 very suspicious, but one cannot disregard the age of 
 the man, of course. 
 
 11031. But its prevalence here hais struck you that it 
 is a trade disease, has it ? — ^It has. 
 
 11032. Has any other class of disease which you have- 
 come across struck you. as a trade disease among the • 
 patients who have come to- you? — ^No, I do not think 
 so. 
 
 11033. Apart from this one thing there is nothing 
 else which has struck you ? — No. 
 
 11034. Where do most of these people attend for- 
 treatment ? — At the Infirmary in Leeds. 
 
 11035. Can you give me any idea of the relative 
 population of the glass hotttle makers from which the- 
 Infirmary draws its patients as compared with men- 
 engaged in mining? — Yes, I can, and I think I can 
 give it you fairly accurately. In the Report of the 
 Inspector of Mines for Yorkshire and Lancashire, Mr. 
 Walker, for 1905, which is the latest report they have, 
 the number of men over the age of 16 years, working: 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 351 
 
 -ffT„^ ! West Elding of Yorkshire, was as follows: — 
 y^7'fi>5?d 83^388 ; above ground, 20,597 ; that is a 
 iTOtai M -103,985. I inquired from the President of the 
 i:o;rksnire Mining Association, which covers the York- 
 shire mines, and he tells me that about one-third of 
 T ^^ ™t? ^^^- ^"^P'^^^ysd within a, radius of 14 miles of 
 A^ic ' * ^® *°' ®^y 27,796 men below ground, and 
 6,865 men above ground, making a total of 34,661. 
 
 11036. Have you any idea of the number of glass 
 fcottle finishers and blowers and gatherers ?— Yes. I 
 could not obtain it officially, but Mr. Greenwood, the 
 
 .■secretary of the society you have referred to, has 
 given m© a return, and he says the number of men 
 employed within a radius of 20 miles of Leeds, in 
 December, 1906, was 622, and the number of men un- 
 employed, 282, or a total of 904. 
 
 11037. Have you any idea of the relative number of 
 ■cases of cataract that are annually treated, or have 
 
 been treated, within the last five years in the Leeds 
 Infirmary amongst these two classes of people ?— Only 
 from the figures which you yourself gave me some 
 time ago. 
 
 11038. Do you remember what I gave you ?— Yes ; 
 13 cataract cases amongst coal miners in the three 
 
 . years 1903 to 1905, and 11 cases amongst glass bottle 
 makers. 
 
 11039. Showing an enormous preponderance amongst 
 the latter? — Yes, it works out at .037 per cent, amongst 
 the miners, assuming these figures to be correct, and 
 1.21 per cent, for the glass bottle makers. 
 
 11040. (Chairman.) More than thirty times as 
 much ? — Yes. 
 
 11041. (Professor Allhuit.) Between the 14 miles 
 
 radiusi, and the 20 miles radius, are there any bottle 
 
 works?— I think not. I think 14 miles covers the 
 
 •distance. I can give you the places where there are 
 
 Ljglass works — namely, Castleford, Hunslet, Thomhill 
 
 Lees, Knottingley, and Wakefield. 
 
 11042. (Dr. Legge.) When you distribute these cases 
 that have occurred in the 9 years over different dis- 
 tricts, and go still further and distribute them over 
 the several factories in which they have occurred, does 
 
 . it work out to a very small number in each per 
 factory? — ^A very small number indeed. 
 
 11043. So that if the diseases were scheduled the 
 burden thrown on the employer would be a small one, 
 would it not? — A very small one. You see there 
 would be no possibility of malingering ; either the 
 man would have cataract or would not have it. It 
 seems to me the thing could be proved definitely. It 
 is not like an injury to the back, which could not be 
 
 ■ disproved. 
 
 11044. (Chairman.) But a question might arise 
 
 • whether or not he was incapacitated, I suppose ? — Yes. 
 
 11045. Suppose it were scheduled, and the man was 
 
 • examined by an oculist at the instance of an employer, 
 and it was found that he had the initial symptoms of 
 
 ■cataract, the employer might dismiss the man, I sup- 
 pose, in order not to have to pay compensation, and 
 the man could not claim compensation because he was 
 not incapacitated by the disease ? — Quite so. 
 
 11046. (Dr. Legge.) Would incapacity be likely to 
 develop within a year after he had' been dismissed ? — I 
 think it probably would. 
 
 11047. (Chairman.) Within a year after the first 
 symptoms had been detected ? — ^Yes ; I make that 
 
 ■ statement simply from the history I get from the 
 ' men themselves. They usually say, for the last twelve 
 
 months they have been seeing badly. 
 
 11048. (Dr. Legge.) Do you think, supposing an age 
 limit was fixed beyond which a claim for cataract 
 should not be allowed, it would prevent dismissal of 
 
 • suspected workers, and so the old hands would be kept 
 •^on till, say, 65 years of age? — ^It would help, no doubt, 
 
 hut I doubt very much whether it would reduce the 
 result entirely. 
 
 11049. (Chairman.) How long may a man have 
 cataract before he is prevented from working at his 
 trado P — ^It entirely depends upon how far the cataract 
 progresses upon his field of vision. 
 
 11050. I mean from the first moment it can bo de- 
 tected until the moment when the man is absolutely 
 
 ■compoUed to stop working?— I really could not say, 
 lit varies so much. 
 
 11051. What would be the longest period from the 
 
 commencement of the cataract until the time that it 
 obstructed the vision ?— It might be some years with a 
 slowly growing cataract. 
 
 11062. Some five or six years ?t— Yes. They vary 
 so much that yoiu cannot say. 
 
 11053. I was spealdngi of the maximum?— But I 
 cannot quite say what the maximum is. 
 
 11054. (Dr. Legge.) The majority of these cases in 
 the list are amongst men under 60 years of age ? — Yes, 
 the majority are. 
 
 11055. Still, is there a fair proportion that are 
 over 60?! — Yes. 
 
 11056. Have yon anything that you would like to 
 say asi to the effleiot of scheduling the disease from the 
 point of view of the workman himself ?— My own view 
 would be that the workman would be the person who 
 would suffer most if the disease were scheduled. 
 
 11057. In what way ? — I think it would shoi'ten his 
 working time of life, or the working time of life of 
 the glass bottle maker, because some of the men who 
 were not so clever as others would be suspected of 
 having failing vision before the viaion really began to 
 fail, and notice would be given them. 
 
 11058. But would it not be counteracted if a limit 
 of age were iixed beyond which a claim for compensa- 
 tion would not be entertained 1' — ^Then, suppose a man 
 at 45 was not doing his work particulairly well, or 
 doing the amount of work they expected a man at that 
 age to do, they would suspect his eyesight was failing, 
 and be might make a claim before he was 50 years 
 of age. I do not mean to say that the glass' bottle 
 manufacturer would discharge a skilled man and a 
 man who was doing his work well, but I think it would 
 give him a reasonable excuse for discharging a man 
 who was doing his work inadequately, and these men 
 vary very muoh so fair as ability is concerned. 
 
 11059. Do you think, if the men took tO' wearing 
 coloured glasses, an employer would imagine they 
 were suffering from commencing failure of sight, and 
 dismiss them, or would he be glad -to see them wearing 
 glasses ? — The employers I know would be extremely 
 glad to see them taking tha,ti precaution. 
 
 11060. Do you think wearing glasses has the effect 
 of proteotiug the eyes? — I have not sufficient experi- 
 ence to say, but I shoiild think so. 
 
 11061. Have you any reason to suppose that this 
 list which we have here represents all the cases that 
 have occurred amongst those 904 glass' bottle workers 
 jou have mentioned ?i — ^My impression is that it does 
 not repi-esent anything like the whole number. 
 
 11062. Do you know of other cases that are not 
 mentioned in the list.f — No, I could not give any 
 (definite details about others, but the men do> not 
 apply for superannuation as soon as their eyesight 
 fails, because it pays them to go on working far better 
 if thley can, as the superannuation is only 5s. per 
 week. 
 
 11063. (Chairman.) Do you find them going on for 
 a number of yeairs, as a matter of fact, working with 
 cataract ?— Yes, some of these men distinctly have done 
 that. 
 
 11064. You do not know how many years they would 
 be able to. go on?— No, I do not. 
 
 11065. Do you ttiink there may be meji at work 
 now who have got cataract in its initial stages. ?— I 
 
 do. ... 
 
 11066. Do you know whether the men are of opinion 
 that it ought to be made the subject of compensation? 
 
 ^The opinion appears to me to vary. I have talked 
 
 to men who have held quite opposite views amongst 
 the workmen. 
 
 11067. What arguments did they adduce? — The 
 ar.i^umentg that the men use who do not want it 
 scheduled is that it will simply encourage the employer 
 to shoriien their working days of life ; the argument 
 on the other side ig that if they get cataa-act they 
 ought to be paid. 
 
 11068 What is your own view?— My own view is 
 that it would be unwise to schedule it from their own 
 point of view. 
 
 11069 (Professor Allhutt.) Do you know how the 
 suspicion arose that cataract may be the result of 
 the trade ? Did the men discover it or was it a matter 
 of expert evidence?— I think it wa.s a matter of expert 
 evidence originally. I think Dr. Robinson, of Sunder- 
 land drew attention to it some ten years ago. 
 
 Mr. G. B. 
 
 Sillman, 
 
 L.S.A. 
 
 6 May 1907. 
 
[ 352 ] 
 
I i}53 J 
 
 APPENDICES. 
 
[ 354 J 
 
[ 355 ] 
 
 LIST OF APPENDICES. 
 
 PAGE. 
 
 I. Statements and Tables handed in by Dr. A, K, Chalmers 357 
 
 II. Statistics furnished by Dr. GuUand as to nature and extent of Phthisis among 
 
 Stonemasons treated in the Royal Victoria Hospital, Edinburgh 364 
 
 III. Statistics furnished by Mr. James Gavin - 366 
 
 IV. Table handed in by Dr. D. Macphail 366 
 
 V. Letteb from Dr. Buchan, Medical Officer of Health, St. Helen's 367 
 
 VI. Letter from Mr. Allan G-reenwell, a.m.t.c.e., in reply to certain questions 
 
 addressed to him 367 
 
 VII. Figures furnished by Dr. E. Davies 368 
 
 VIII. Statement by Dr. H. Malet . - 370' 
 
 IX. Supplementary Evidence of Professor Lindsay on Diseases of Flax Workers in 
 
 Belfast ... 371 
 
 X. Statistics furnished by Dr. G. Petgrave Johnson 372 
 
 XI. Statistics furnished by Dr. Dawes of Deaths from the chief Potters' Respira- 
 tory Diseases, from 1898-1906, in Longton, Staffordshire 373 
 
 XII. Statistics furnished by Dr. Tatham 374 
 
 XIII. Letter from Mr. Gregor, Managing Director of the Graigola Merthyr Co., Ltd., 
 
 Swansea 376' 
 
 XIV. Tables handed in by Mr. Fitzmaurice, c.m.g. 377 
 XV. Letter from Mr. H. Orbell as to illness of men engaged in the removal of night-soil 381 
 
 XVI. Letter from Dr. Dingle 382 
 
 XVII. Letter relating to poisoning by African Boxwood froui the Curator of the 
 
 Pharmaceutical Society 383 
 
 XVIII. Letter from Mr. Steadman, m.p. - 383 
 
 XIX. Let PER from Mr. March 
 XX. Letter from Dr. McUougall as to absence of illness among men employed on 
 
 cyanide plants 
 XXI. Report by Dr. Walter Maiden on the blood changes brought about by nitro- and 
 
 amido-clerivatives of benzene 384 
 
 XXII. Translation, by Dr. Legge, of section on Glass Bottlemakers' Cataract by CHesa, 
 in Graefe-Saemisch's Handbuch der Gesamten Augenheilkunde. 2nd Edition, 
 Part II., Chap. IX., pp. 106-108. Leipzig, 1905 ^S7 
 
 XXIII Additional Figures supplied by Mr. Greenwood, Secretary of the Glass Bottle 
 makers of Yorkshire Trade Protection Society 
 
 383 
 383 
 
 388 
 
[ 3o« J 
 
HEPAKTMEKTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL ])[,SEASES. 357 
 
 APPENDIX i. 
 
 Statements and Ta isles handed in by Dii. A. Iv. C 
 
 HALMERS. 
 
 It may be useful to add a note regarding the movements in the death rates from : 
 
 («) All causes, - 
 (b) Phthisis, and 
 , (p) Other respiratory diseases, in Glasgow during several years. 
 
 Death Eate— All causes (both sexes):- 
 
 Years. _ 
 
 1S71-2 - Per 1,000. 
 
 1880-2 30-7 
 
 1890-L' 2.5-2 
 
 1899-1901 f^„ 
 
 1903-5 20. 
 
 Death Rate -Phthisis, all ages (both sexes), in scvera' qunujuemna. 
 
 Years. t, ^ 
 
 185.')-.->ft ^ J^^if- 
 
 1860-64 - 3.4^ 
 
 1865- 6 :J tn-t 
 
 1870-74 
 
 187.V79 
 
 1880-84 
 
 1885-89 i- 
 
 1890-94 - !- 
 
 ] 895-99 - ^- 
 
 1900-1904 
 
 1905 
 
 3-972 
 
 3-008 
 
 3-644 
 
 3-140 
 
 2-601 
 
 2-315 
 
 2014 
 
 1-712 . 
 
 1-437 
 
 Death Rate — Other respiratory diseases:— 
 
 ^ears. Kate. 
 
 1881-90 - 5-870 
 
 1891-1900 - 4-993 
 
 1901-5 4-140 
 
 Comparison of Death Rates for males and females, separately, (1) from all causes, (2) from phthisis, (3) from 
 other respiratory diseases, and (4) from phthisis and other respiratory diseases together: — 
 
 In the accompanying tables (J. to IV.) the population and deaths with corresponding rates are stated for each 
 decennial period from 25 to 65. They are based on the Registrar General's returns, and represent three yearly 
 averages surrounding the census years 1871-1901. 
 
 SU.MMARY OF TABLES. 
 
 All Causes.- -For males and females at each decennium, the rates are now lower than in the '71 period, and 
 generally the male rate is in excess of the female rate save at the period 25-35. 
 
 Phthisis. — In the seventies the female rate exceeds the male at each age period, and is still above it at ages 
 20-45 in 1900-1902 ; from 45-65 it is below it. 
 
 Other Respiratory Diseases.— Here the female rate is uniformly lower than the male rate throughout. 
 
 ages 25-35 those for f'emales are almost always, although only slightly, in excess, but in the succeeding decennial 
 periods, and particularly after 45, the reverse is the case, and becomes pretty marked. 
 
 ^^ 
 
358 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 Table I. 
 Death Rate per thousand at several ages, and from All Causes. 
 
 Years. 
 
 25-35 
 
 35- 
 
 45- 
 
 55-65 
 
 (a) Males : 
 
 
 
 
 
 1870-2 
 
 12-8 
 
 20-7 
 
 32-8 
 
 51-6 
 
 1880-2 
 
 10-3 
 
 16-7 
 
 28-2 
 
 46-8 
 
 1890-2 
 
 10-0 
 
 15-5 
 
 27-0 
 
 47-9 
 
 1900-2 
 
 9'3 
 
 15-4 
 
 25-5 
 
 50-9 
 
 (b) Females : 
 
 
 
 
 
 1870-2 
 
 14-4 
 
 18-4 
 
 25-0 
 
 40-0 
 
 1880-2 
 
 11-9 
 
 14-6 
 
 21-9 
 
 36-4 
 
 1890-2 
 
 9-2 
 
 14-0 
 
 21-1 
 
 38-4 
 
 1900-2 
 
 10-5 
 
 13-0 
 
 21-3 
 
 40-2 
 
 Table II. 
 Death Rate per thousand at several ages from Phthisis. 
 
 Years. 
 
 25-35 
 
 35- 
 
 45- 
 
 55-65. 
 
 (a) Males ; 
 
 
 
 
 
 1870-2 
 
 .4-8 
 
 5-4 
 
 4-8 
 
 4'1 
 
 1880-2 
 
 4-0 
 
 3-7 
 
 3-4 
 
 2-5 
 
 1890-2 
 
 3-2 
 
 o'(J 
 
 3-4 
 
 2'2 
 
 1900-2 
 
 2-6 
 
 3-1 
 
 3-5 
 
 2-4 
 
 (b) Females : 
 
 
 
 
 
 1870-2 
 
 7-7 
 
 7-2 
 
 6'2 
 
 3-8 
 
 1880-2 
 
 4-9 
 
 4-1 
 
 2-5 
 
 1-6 
 
 1890-2 
 
 3-5 
 
 3-2 
 
 1-8 
 
 1-1 
 
 1900-2 
 
 3-2 
 
 3-3 
 
 2-0 
 
 11 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 359 
 
 Table III. 
 Death Kate per thousand at several Ages from " Other Respiratory Diseases." 
 
 Years. 
 
 25-35. 
 
 35- 
 
 45- 
 
 55-65. 
 
 (a) Males 
 
 
 
 
 
 1870-2 
 
 1-8 
 
 4-3 
 
 9'4 
 
 17-9 
 
 1880-2 
 
 1-7 
 
 4-1 
 
 8'6 
 
 14-1 
 
 1890-2 
 
 1-7 
 
 3-8 
 
 8-8 
 
 16-8 
 
 1900-2 
 
 •7 
 
 2'0 
 
 4-5 
 
 11'2 
 
 (b) Females : 
 
 
 
 
 
 1870-2 
 
 1-2 
 
 2-59 
 
 6-0 
 
 12-3 
 
 1880-2 
 
 1-4 
 
 2-8 
 
 6-6 
 
 ll'l 
 
 1890-2 
 
 •9 
 
 2-8 
 
 6-1 
 
 12-0 
 
 1900-2 
 
 •7 
 
 1-3 
 
 4-0 
 
 9-4 
 
 Table IV. 
 Death Rate ])er thousand from Phthisis and " Other Respiratory Diseases " combined. 
 
 Years. 
 
 (a) Males: 
 1870-2 
 1880-2 
 1890-2 
 1900-2 
 
 (b) Females: 
 1870-2 
 1880-2 
 1890-2 
 1900-2 
 
 25-35. 
 
 6-6 
 5-7 
 4-9 
 3-3 
 
 8-9 
 6-3 
 4-4 
 3-9 
 
 35- 
 
 9-7 
 
 7-8 
 7-4 
 5-1 
 
 6-9 
 6-0 
 
 4-6 
 
 45- 
 
 14-2 
 
 12-0 
 
 1-2-2 
 
 8-0 
 
 12-2 
 91 
 7-9 
 6-0 
 
 55-65. 
 
 22-0 
 16-6 
 190 
 13-6 
 
 16-1 
 
 12-7 
 131 
 10-5 
 
 2Z 
 
 419. 
 
:^(i() 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 'J'able v. 
 Population and Deaths from All and Certain Causes at several ages. 
 
 Yeais. 
 
 {a) Males : 
 1870-2 
 
 (b) Fkmalk- 
 1870-2 
 
 Age. 
 
 25-35. 
 All causes 
 Phthisis 
 Other respiratory diseases 
 
 35-45. 
 
 All causes 
 
 Phthisis - 
 
 (_)tlier rt'spiratorjf diseases 
 
 45-55. 
 All causes 
 Phthisis - 
 Other respiratoi-y diseases 
 
 5."j-6G. 
 All causes - 
 Phthisis 
 Other respiratory diseases 
 
 25-35. 
 All causes - 
 Phthisis 
 Other respiratory diseases - 
 
 35- 45. 
 All causes - 
 Phthisis 
 Other respiratory diseases - 
 
 45-55 
 All causes 
 Phthi.sis 
 Otlier rcs]iiratory diseases - 
 
 - 55-65. 
 All causes 
 Phthisis 
 Other respiratory diseases - 
 
 I Average Annual I Aveiage .\nnual 
 ! Population. : Number of Deaths. 
 
 39,534 
 
 — 
 
 508 
 
 — 
 
 188 
 
 — 
 
 70 
 
 25,833 
 
 
 — 
 
 5.36 
 
 — 
 
 140 
 
 — 
 
 112 
 
 17,609 
 
 
 — 
 
 578 
 
 — 
 
 84 
 
 — 
 
 167 
 
 9,ij52 
 
 
 — 
 
 514 
 
 — 
 
 41 
 
 — 
 
 175 
 
 42,544 
 
 
 — 
 
 612 
 
 
 327 
 
 
 49 
 
 29(i,79 
 
 
 -- 
 
 546 
 
 
 214 
 
 — 
 
 77 
 
 20,820 
 
 
 — 
 
 520 
 
 - 
 
 129 
 
 — 
 
 124 
 
 13,(107 
 
 
 — 
 
 521 
 
 — 
 
 50 
 
 ~ 
 
 161 
 
 Among this population (see Q. 4270, •■icvy.) there occurred during the years 1900-1 ~l', 8,681 deaths distributed 
 as shown in the following table : — 
 
 Table VI. 
 
 Glasgov^^.— I900-1-L>. Occupational Death-rates. All Males. 
 
 
 35- 
 
 Ages. 
 4.5- 
 
 55-66 
 
 
 25- 
 
 Totals. 
 
 197,466 
 
 1 ,572 
 
 7-8 
 
 139,413 
 
 i,992 
 
 14-3 
 
 , ll*;,936 
 
 2,511 
 
 25-9 
 
 55,242 
 
 2,606 
 
 47-1 
 
 489,057 
 
 8,681 
 
 17-7 
 
 9 3 
 
 8-2 
 
 lu-2 
 14-2 
 
 26-5 
 
 24-8 
 
 45-8 
 45-5 
 
 
 8-7 
 
 15-9 
 
 27-8 
 
 50-2 
 
 — 
 
 All Males. 
 
 Years of Life 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 Glasgow Life Table. 
 1881-1890 
 1892-1900 
 
 Indchteial Disteict.s (England). 
 1 890-92 
 
 The deaths here shown for all males at ages 25, 35, 46, and 55-65 read 7'8, 14"3, 25'9, and 47'1 respectively, 
 while the death-rate for the whole period 25-65 is 8'0. In order to compare the rates thus ascertained with 
 those for corresponding age periods, but obtained otherwise, I have added three horizontal lines at the foot of the 
 table. The figures in these lines are (1) Death-rates of occupied males in industrial districts, 1890-92 ; (2) Life 
 table for Glasgow, 1881-1890 ; and (3) Life table for Glasgow for 1892-1900. Bearing in mind the different 
 periods, the rates given show a fair correspondence with those calculated on the observed occupational deaths 
 in Glasgow, and we shall not err much, I think, in assuming that any occupation showing a markedly higher death- 
 rate at any of the four age periods than is there shown is associated with some influence more prejudicial to 
 vitality than those occupations where the rates are lower. 
 
 From the tables thus prepared I select a few occupations for comparison. 
 
1>E1'AIITMKN-TAL coMMrTTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 361 
 
 Table VIT. 
 
 Glasgow 1900-1-2. — Deaths and Death Rates from All Causes in certain occupations, together with com- 
 parative mortality figure for each group. 
 
 Group No. 
 
 IX. 
 
 X. 
 
 XIV. 
 
 XIX. 
 
 XXII. 
 
 Occupation. 
 
 Death rate — all Males 
 
 Mines and Quarries — 
 Years of life 
 Deaths 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 Metal Workers-^ 
 Years of life 
 
 Deaths - - - 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 Brick and Cement Worker.",! X'c, — 
 
 Year,-; of life ; - - - 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 Textiles — 
 
 Years of life 
 Deaths ; 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 General and Undefined Workers, and all 
 Labourers^ 
 
 Years of life \ - • 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 25. 
 
 32 
 10-2 
 
 8,463 
 76 
 8-9 
 
 24,306 
 
 425 
 17-4 
 
 Ages. 
 
 35. 
 
 B-0 i 14-3 
 
 3,114 \ 2,274 
 
 38 
 167 
 
 42,285 I 30,564 
 
 245 j 324 
 
 5-7 1 10-6 
 
 1,962 ' 1,569 
 
 i 
 
 25 I 28 
 
 12-7 i 17-8 
 
 6,420 
 106 
 14-9 
 
 19,416 
 539 
 
 27-7 
 
 45. I 55-65. 
 
 25-9 47-1 
 
 1,611 
 
 47 
 
 29-1 
 
 20,667 
 392 
 18-9 
 
 1,164 
 
 51 
 
 43-8 
 
 4,905 
 161 
 
 32-8 
 
 13,422 
 
 698 
 
 52 
 
 828 
 
 42 
 
 50'7 
 
 10,458 
 382 
 36-5 
 
 570 
 
 24 
 
 42-1 
 
 C.M.F. 
 
 All Males 
 
 7,362 
 696 
 95-9 
 
 1,000 
 
 1,143 
 
 743 
 
 1,332 
 
 2,838 
 174 1^ 1,197 
 61-3 ij 
 
 2,032 
 
 In addition tothese one unforeseen difficult? ¥^^^^. St be separated, and in consequence ^vhat is here 
 group would not be raised above that of " All Males. ; 
 
362 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 INQUIRY REGAEDING THE PREVALENCE OF PHTHISIS AND OTHER RESPIRATORY 
 
 DISEASES. 
 
 It would be among this group of diseases that fibroid disease of the lung, and pneumonia induced by the inhalation 
 of basic slag would appear, so that the analysis has been carried to show the death rates from phthisis and from other 
 respiratory diseases separately. In Table C which follows, the deaths from phthisis among those occupations are 
 compared with the deaths from the same disease affecting All Males at these ages. The results given point to a 
 lower prevalence of phthisis among metal workers than among miners, brick and cement workers, textile workers, 
 general and undefined workers and all labourers. 
 
 Table VIII. 
 Deaths and Death Rate feom Phthisis for corresponding Groups. 
 
 Group No. 
 
 All Males. 
 
 IX. 
 
 Occupation. 
 
 XIY. 
 
 XIX. 
 
 XXII. 
 
 Death rate. Phthisis 
 
 25- 
 
 2-6 
 
 Mines and Quarries — 
 Years of life 
 Deaths 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 Metals, Machines, etc. — 
 Years of life 
 Deaths 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 Brick, Cement, etc. — 
 Years of life 
 Deaths 
 Death rate per 1 ,000 
 
 Textiles — 
 Years of life 
 Deaths 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 General and Undefined Workers, and all 
 Labourers — 
 
 Years of life 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 3,114 
 
 7 
 2-2 
 
 42,285 
 68 
 1-6 
 
 1,962 
 
 7 
 
 3-5 
 
 !,463 
 31 
 3-6 
 
 24,306 
 159 
 6-5 
 
 Ages 
 
 35- 
 
 34 
 
 2,274 
 
 9 
 
 3-9 
 
 30,564 
 
 63 
 
 2-05 
 
 1,569 
 
 5 '09 
 
 6,420 
 37 
 5-7 
 
 45- 
 
 3-8 
 
 19,416 
 137 
 
 7-1 
 
 1,611 
 
 5 
 
 3-1 
 
 20,667 
 38 
 1-8 
 
 1,164 
 
 19 
 
 16-3 
 
 4,905 
 
 5-9 
 
 13,422 
 116 
 
 55-65 
 
 2-6 
 
 828 
 
 2 
 
 2-2 
 
 10,458 
 25 
 2-3 
 
 570 
 
 2 
 
 3-5 
 
 2,838 
 17 
 5-9 
 
 736-2 
 41 
 5-5 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE (JX INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 363 
 
 Table IX. 
 
 Deaths and Death Rate from Bronchitis, Pneumonia, Pleurisy, and other Kespiratory Diseases 
 (excluding Phthisis) for corresponding groups, the Death Rate being calculated on the number of persons 
 living and working at each age at the specified occupations. 
 
 Group No. 
 
 Occupation. 
 
 Ages. 
 
 IX. 
 
 X. 
 
 XIV. 
 
 XIX. 
 
 XXII. 
 
 Death rate per 1,000— all Males 
 
 Mines and Quarries — 
 
 Years of life » 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 Metals, Machines, etc. — 
 
 Years of life 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 Brick, Cement — 
 
 Years of life - 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 - - - 
 
 Textiles — 
 
 Years of life 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 General and Undefined Workers and all 
 Labourers — 
 
 Years of life 
 
 Deaths 
 
 Death rate per 1,000 
 
 1-5 
 
 3,114 
 
 6 
 
 1-926 
 
 42,285 
 
 46 
 
 1-087 
 
 1,962 
 
 7 
 
 3-565 
 
 8,463 
 
 14 
 
 1-654 
 
 i4,306 
 
 91 
 
 3-743 
 
 35. 
 
 3-6 
 
 2,274 
 
 8 
 
 3-518 
 
 30,564 
 
 84 
 
 1-748 
 
 1,569 
 11 
 
 7-010 
 
 6,420 
 
 21 
 
 3-271 
 
 19,416 
 153 
 
 45. 
 
 7-5 
 
 1,611 
 
 22 
 12-656 
 
 20,667 
 
 126 
 
 6-096 
 
 1,1^4 
 15 
 
 12-886 
 
 4,995 
 
 40 
 
 8-154 
 
 13,4^2 
 
 2^3 
 
 17-359 
 
 55-65. 
 
 14-5 
 
 828 
 
 19 
 
 22-946 
 
 10,458 
 
 115 
 
 10-996 
 
 570 
 
 11 
 
 19-298 
 
 2,838 
 
 51 
 
 17-970 
 
 7,362 
 
 254 
 
 34-501 
 
 In addition to the foregoing I have extracted all the deaths of persons engaged m the aron industry which 
 occurred iHLDennistoun Registration District of Glasgow, which includes the Royal Infirnwy, or the 
 vearT905 These comprise 90 deaths, of which 39 were due to diseases of the respiratory system, ...., 17 were 
 due to phthisis, and 22 to other forms of respiratory disease. 
 
 Of the 17 phthisis deaths, 
 
 2 were iron drillers, 
 
 1 an iron worker, _ . 
 
 1 an iron-slotting machinist, 
 
 2 were sheet-iron workers, 
 1 a stfeel smelter, 
 
 4 were engine fitters, ' 
 
 2 were iron- work labourers, 
 
 3 were engineers, 
 1 an iron polisher 
 
 17 
 
 Of the other respiratory diseases, including 15 pneumonia and pleuro-pneumonia, and 6 bronchitis,, 
 '■ la furnace man, 
 
 4 were iron dressers, ^ .^^ iron-work labourer, 
 
 1 a forge worker, 5 ^,^,g^.g engineers' labourers, 
 
 1 an iron turner, 2 were engine fitters. 
 4 were iron workers, __ 
 
 2 were iron puddlers, ^2 
 
 1 a stfeel sav/yer, ^ 1 1 • r^i , ^ 
 
 1 1 4. „„i„rio fvnm the foregoing facts that the metal workers m Glasgow do not 
 It would seem to be reasonable to conclude tiomtJie^^^^^^^ pneumonia induced or predisposed to by 
 
 suffer to any appreciable extent from fibrosis ot tJie lun^s, o f 
 
 the inhalation of basic slag dust. 
 
 ^ BRICK CEMENT, GLASS, AND POTTERY WORKERS. 
 In this group on the other hand, the death-rates from all diseases in the various age-groups save at ,-,5-65 are 
 ntstLi^s^^rettdTnl^^^^^^^^^^^ and other diseases of the lungs. 
 
.S(14 
 
 APPENDIX . 
 
 APPENDIX [[. 
 
 SiATiSTics furnished b\- Dr. GrLL.\XD as to the nature and extent of Phthisis among 
 Stonemasons treated in the Koyal Victoria Hospital, Edinburgh. . 
 
 Royal VictvOria Hospital Out-patients, includes All Masons attending during the 
 
 last three years. 
 
 No. in 
 Records. 
 
 M. 
 B.orH. 
 
 Age 
 
 Time otf 
 work. 
 
 Time ill. 
 
 Family 
 Plistory. 
 
 Kind of case. 
 
 T. B. 
 
 Result. 
 
 12462 
 
 H. 
 
 46 
 
 2 ms. 
 
 3 ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Mainly bronchi tic 
 
 Not. ex. 
 
 In statu quo. 
 
 12991 
 
 H. 
 
 1 
 
 30 
 
 -2 ws. 
 
 9 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Advanced bilateral - 
 
 )» »» 
 
 Not seen again. 
 
 13031 
 
 i 
 
 42 
 
 Not noted. 
 
 12 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Early apical 
 
 „ „ 
 
 Improved. 
 
 13066 
 
 B. 
 
 42 
 
 ?i >' 
 
 2 ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 )i )i 
 
 -1- 
 
 Only seen twice. 
 
 13195 
 
 13228 
 
 H. 
 
 I 
 
 B.antiH. 
 
 18 
 62 
 
 
 Chest in 
 E.H.S.c. 
 Several y.s. 
 
 Good. 
 Good. 
 
 Advanced bilateral 
 Emphys. and bronchitis - 
 
 -1- 
 Not. ex. 
 
 „ thrice. 
 „ „ once. 
 
 13241 
 
 H. 
 
 47 
 
 >J 7J . 
 
 19 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Medium Ijilateral 
 
 -f- 
 
 " n )j 
 
 13272 
 
 H. 
 
 43 
 
 3 ms. 
 
 3ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Apical cavities, advanced 
 
 -1- 
 
 M ») 5) 
 
 13316 
 
 H. 
 
 25 
 
 7 m.s. 
 
 4 ys. 
 
 Good. ^ 
 
 Medium case 
 
 -1- + 
 
 Improved. 
 
 13360 
 
 H. 
 
 42 
 
 3ds. 
 
 12 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Very early left 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 Got worse. 
 
 13398 
 
 H. 
 
 28 
 
 \v. 
 
 18 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Medium, T. 101-2° ■■ 
 
 1, ,' 
 
 " » 
 
 13421 
 13506 
 
 H. 
 H. 
 
 39 
 26 
 
 lyr. 
 w. 
 
 18 ms. 
 8 ws. 
 
 Good. 
 F. d. ph. 
 
 Advanced, basalalso on 
 
 both sides. 
 Fairly early apical- 
 
 -f--l- 
 Not ex. 
 
 Only seen thrice. 
 Improved. 
 
 13532 
 
 H. 
 H. 
 
 44 
 35 
 
 Not noted. 
 
 2 W8. 
 
 2 ys. 
 8 ms. 
 
 F. was ma- 
 son, no ph. 
 Good. 
 
 Very slight left apical 
 Very early apical 
 
 -1--F 
 
 Only seen once. 
 Improved. 
 
 13567 
 
 H. 
 
 29 
 
 9 ms. 
 
 9 ms. 
 
 B. d. ph. 
 
 Advanced bilateral - 
 
 H--I--I- 
 
 Only seen once. 
 
 13693 
 
 H. 
 
 45 
 
 w. 
 
 18 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Marked double apical 
 
 -(--f -1- 
 
 Improved. 
 
 13708 
 
 H, 
 
 5-2 
 
 6 ms. 
 
 2ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Medium, cavity 1. apex 
 
 + 
 
 Got worse. 
 
 13771 
 
 H. 
 
 23 
 
 5 ws. 
 
 6 ws. 
 
 B. has ph. 
 
 Very early 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 Only seen once 
 
 3788 
 
 B. 
 
 35 
 
 3 ws. 
 
 4ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Advanced bilateral - 
 
 + 
 
 Died. 
 
 13800 
 
 H. 
 
 37 
 
 10 ms. 
 
 10 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Equal apical 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 In statu quo. 
 
 13842 
 
 H. 
 
 60 
 
 12 wa. 
 
 12 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Advanced bilateral - 
 
 »» 5 
 
 Improved. 
 
 13«48 
 
 H. 
 
 48 
 
 3ds. 
 
 12 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 „ T. 101° 
 
 )J ») 
 
 Died. 
 
 13899 
 
 H 
 
 20 
 
 9 ms. 
 
 10 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 )) )) 
 
 -f-H-l- 
 
 Only seen ouce. 
 
 13907 
 (Perth) 
 
 H. 
 
 44 
 
 1 nith. 
 
 Some ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 )) 11 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 )) ») i; 
 
 14093 
 (Portobello) 
 
 B. 
 
 60 
 
 10 ms. 
 
 10 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Medium 
 
 j» ») 
 
 In statu quo 
 
 14115 
 
 H. 
 
 44 
 
 4 ms. 
 
 2ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Fairly early 
 
 + 
 
 Improved. 
 
 14291 
 
 H. 
 
 43 
 
 3 ms. 
 
 3 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Early - 
 
 -1- 
 
 In statu quo. 
 
 14338 
 
 B. 
 
 66 
 
 6 ms. 
 
 4 ys. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Medium - - - - 
 
 + 
 
 Improved. 
 
 14412 
 
 H. 
 
 39 
 
 7 ms. 
 
 7 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Early, T. 100^ 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 Only seen once. 
 
 14527 
 
 H. 
 
 43 
 
 2 ms. 
 
 6 ms. 
 
 Good. 
 
 (?) Syphilitic 
 
 — 
 
 Not phthisis. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 303 
 
 Royal Victoria Hospital Out-patients, etc. — continued. 
 
 No. in 
 Records. 
 
 M. 
 B.oiH. 
 
 Age. 
 
 Time off 
 
 work. 
 
 14861 
 (Oban) 
 
 14889 
 
 14921 
 
 15091 
 
 15113 
 
 15136 
 
 15168 
 
 15296 
 
 15353 
 
 15369 
 
 15452 
 
 15499 
 
 15539 
 
 15557 
 
 15666 
 
 15885 
 
 16010 
 (Country) 
 
 16047 
 
 16086 
 
 16101 
 
 16185 
 
 H. 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 
 H. 
 H. 
 B. 
 B. 
 
 Lountain - 
 
 M. 
 
 Heron 
 
 M. 
 
 Hamilton - 
 
 M. 
 
 Grant 
 
 M. 
 
 Eraser 
 
 M. 
 
 Fothering- 
 ham 
 
 M. 
 
 Dunbar - 
 
 M. 
 
 Dickson - 
 
 H. 
 
 Derrick 
 
 H. 
 
 Burgess - 
 
 H. 
 
 Birsell - 
 
 M. 
 
 Banks 
 
 H. 
 
 Baillie 
 
 H. 
 
 50 
 31 
 
 44 
 
 59 
 
 45 
 
 52 
 
 56 
 
 44 
 
 39 
 
 51 
 
 48 
 
 42 
 
 42 
 
 39 
 
 45 
 
 54 
 
 27 
 
 54 
 
 50 
 52 
 64 
 
 28 
 
 64 
 45 
 
 26 
 36 
 33 
 41 
 
 37 
 36 
 
 29 
 30 
 44 
 39 
 32 
 
 1 yr. 
 2y3. 
 
 1 -wk. 
 3iy8. 
 5 ws. 
 8 ws. 
 5 nis. 
 8 ms. 
 
 2 ms. 
 w. 
 
 2ys. 
 
 1 wk. 
 
 w. 
 
 3 ms. 
 8 ms. 
 3 ms, 
 3 ws. 
 
 1 mth. 
 
 w. 
 
 3 ws. 
 1 yr. 
 1 mth. 
 
 Time ill. 
 
 Family 
 history. 
 
 Kind of case. 
 
 T.B. 
 
 Result. 
 
 1 mth. 
 
 2ys 
 
 2 ws 
 3|ys. 
 4 ms. 
 
 3 ms. 
 2ys. 
 
 15 ms. 
 
 3 ms. 
 Doubtful 
 
 2ys. 
 
 4 ms. 
 
 1 yr. 
 2ys. 
 
 2 ms. 
 10 ms. 
 
 Some year: 
 2ys. 
 
 5 ms. 
 3 ws. 
 5 ms. 
 
 4y3. 
 
 Good. 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 D. d. ph. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 F. & B. 
 d. ph. 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 B. d. ph. (1) 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 S. d. ph. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 W. d. ph. 
 
 Good. 
 
 
 Medium - 
 
 Marked apical, T. 99'8® 
 
 Very early 
 
 Old ph. w. emph. and 
 
 brunch. 
 Marked rt. side, T. 99-4° 
 
 Well marked • 
 
 Emphys, marked, T.lOO" 
 
 Double apical. It. base also 
 
 Aortic stenosis 
 
 Fairly early, abscess in 
 neck tubercular 
 Fairly early, T.99-6° 
 
 Medium, bronch. also 
 
 Fairly early 
 
 Advanced, T.lOl" 
 
 Marked, T:99° 
 
 Early 
 
 Medium 
 Well advanced 
 
 Very advanced 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 In-patients — A few taken at random. 
 
 10 ws. 
 
 2 ys. 
 
 6 ms. 
 
 6 ms. 
 
 3 ms. 
 
 2 ms. 
 
 2 ms. 
 
 4 ms- 
 
 5 ms. 
 
 7 ms. 
 
 6 ms. 
 
 7 ms. 
 5 ms. 
 
 2ys. 
 2ys. 
 
 lyr. 
 
 24 ys. 
 
 Not noted 
 
 2iys. 
 
 Sys. 
 6 ms. 
 
 liyr- 
 liyr- 
 
 1 yr. 
 liyr- 
 
 Good. 
 
 Friend 
 
 d. ph. 
 
 5 years ago 
 
 F. d. ph. 
 
 B. mason 
 d. ph. 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 F. d. ph. 
 
 and 2 S. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Good. 
 
 Well marked 
 Very marked 
 
 Bad rt. sided 
 Marked bilateral 
 Fibrinous bronchitis 
 Early 
 
 Bad rt. sided 
 
 Medium 
 
 Mainly left, medmm 
 
 Marked rt. sided 
 bilateral 
 rt. sided - 
 
 Medium, mainly left 
 
 + 
 + + 
 
 + 
 + + 
 
 + 
 
 + 
 Not ei 
 
 Only seen once. 
 
 + 
 + + + 
 
 + 
 Not ex. 
 
 + 
 + 
 
 Not ex. 
 
 + + + 
 + + 
 
 + + 
 + + 
 
 + + + 
 
 + + + 
 
 + 
 
 + 
 + + 
 
 + 
 + + 
 
 + 
 
 Improved. 
 
 Died. 
 
 Only seen once. 
 
 „ twice_ 
 
 „ once. 
 
 » n M 
 
 Improved. 
 
 Worse. 
 
 Only seen once.. 
 
 In statu quo. 
 
 Worse. 
 
 In statu quo. 
 
 Only seen once.. 
 
 Improved 
 Died. 
 
 Lost wt. 
 Improved. 
 
 Worse. 
 
 Improved greatly 
 In statu quo. 
 Improved. 
 
 Worse. 
 
 Much improved. 
 
 Improved. 
 
 In statu quo. 
 
 )) " " 
 
 i; !i >' 
 
 Much improved. 
 
 i,„ . /!= - rla vs • ms. = months ; ys. = years ; 
 .nv, M = mason ; B. = builder ; H. = hewer ; ws. = ^^f^^ '^J„ " J- ' + = Tubercle bacilli found 
 
 3 A 
 
 Abbkeviations. 
 w. = work' 
 in sputum 
 
 419. 
 
r-iiic 
 
 APPENDIX 
 
 APPENDIX III. 
 
 Statistics furnished by Mb. James Gavin. 
 
 Amalgamated Society of Steel and Ironwoikers of Great Britain, of 5,600 members. 
 
 Number of deaths on which Society paid claims, of which the number attributable to- 
 Cardiac failure 
 Pneumonia 
 Heart disease 
 Phthisis pulnsenalis 
 
 Total 
 Being equal to 56'25 of tutil. 
 Other causes 
 
 18 
 
 APPENDIX IV. 
 
 Table handed m by Dr. D. Macphail. 
 Causes of Death in 187 Colliers. (Accidents not Included.) 
 
 Chronic bronchitis* 
 
 Pneumonia* 
 
 Nephritis* 
 
 Phthisis pulmonalis - 
 
 Apoplexy* 
 
 Valvular disease 
 
 Malignant diseases 
 
 Syncope - - - 
 
 Senile debility* 
 
 Influenza 
 
 Diarrhoea* - - 
 
 Cirrhosis of liver* 
 
 General paralysis 
 
 Gastritis* 
 
 Cerebral tumour 
 
 Meningitis 
 
 Enteric fever 
 
 Erysipelas 
 
 Delirium tremens 
 
 Urjemia 
 
 General tuberculosis - ■ ^ 
 
 Disseminated sclerosis 
 
 Pleurisy 
 
 Bone disease 
 
 Pulmonary apoplexy 
 
 Lateral sclerosis 
 
 Gastric ulcer 
 
 Asthma 
 
 Average age over all, 64 years. 
 (This figure quite unreliable owing to incorrect statements for insurance purposes.) 
 
 
 
 
 Years. 
 
 r)4 
 
 cases, 
 
 average age 
 
 07 
 
 22 
 
 ■>i 
 
 » 
 
 jj 
 
 ."i''i 
 
 14 
 
 ■)•> 
 
 ji 
 
 1? 
 
 52 
 
 14 
 
 » 
 
 )) 
 
 15 
 
 28 
 
 14 
 
 •)•> 
 
 11 
 
 )) 
 
 57 
 
 9 
 
 5! 
 
 1) 
 
 51 
 
 56 
 
 8 
 
 )) 
 
 J) 
 
 )) 
 
 55 
 
 ;") 
 
 H 
 
 )j 
 
 ») 
 
 59 
 
 4 
 
 5J 
 
 j> 
 
 )) 
 
 57 
 
 6 
 
 )» 
 
 )j 
 
 J> 
 
 66 
 
 4 
 
 )) 
 
 ») 
 
 ») 
 
 61 
 
 4 
 
 )) 
 
 J) 
 
 11 
 
 42 
 
 3 
 
 •>•) 
 
 1) 
 
 J) 
 
 58 
 
 a 
 
 J) 
 
 » 
 
 „ 
 
 57 
 
 2 
 
 >» 
 
 5) 
 
 )J 
 
 36 
 
 2 
 
 )» 
 
 )» 
 
 55 
 
 20 
 
 2 
 
 )» 
 
 „ 
 
 7) 
 
 24 
 
 •;, 
 
 ■il 
 
 J» 
 
 )5 
 
 54 
 
 2 
 
 1» 
 
 ») 
 
 „ 
 
 44 
 
 2 
 
 H 
 
 »> 
 
 ■•5 
 
 60 
 
 2 
 
 )) 
 
 » 
 
 )5 
 
 23 
 
 ^ 
 
 )1 
 
 JJ 
 
 )) 
 
 62 ; 
 
 1 
 
 » 
 
 » 
 
 J1 
 
 52 
 
 1 
 
 )» 
 
 » 
 
 )» 
 
 21 i 
 
 1 
 
 » 
 
 )) 
 
 55 
 
 87 
 
 1 
 
 » 
 
 )) 
 
 1) 
 
 — , 
 
 1 
 
 1» 
 
 » 
 
 55 
 
 20 
 
 ] 
 
 1» 
 
 » 
 
 55 
 
 72 
 
 Pulmonary diseases 
 Cardia, vascular - 
 Renal 
 Nervous 
 
 92 cases 
 29 „ 
 16 „ 
 n „ 
 
 * Alcoholism might liave been certified in many of these cases, but for care to omit terms which might lead to 
 insurance moneys being refused. 
 
DEPAN'l'MENTAL COMMITTEE OX IN'Dr.STRlAL DISEASES. 
 
 367 
 
 APPENDIX V. 
 
 Lettek from Dh. Buchan, Medical Officer of Health, St. Helen's. 
 
 4 ■ — ■ . — 
 
 Medical Officer of Health's Department, ^''o™ bronchitis and pneumonia has been highest among 
 
 Town Hall, St. Helens, *he chemical workers of the town.— I am 
 ,,,, „ ,, J'eferuaryetMQO?. Yours faithfully, 
 
 Dt.AM. oiR,— 1 herewith forward to you some figures I Joh^ J. Buchan, 
 
 have been getting out with respect to certain diseases MeMcal Officer of Health.. 
 
 nnttoc. will note that the death rate from phthisis and London.' "^ *''*''''''"' 
 
 COUNTY BOROUGH OF ST. HELENS. 
 
 PHTHISIS. 
 
 Deaths among occupied males engaged in certain occupations and at certain age period. 
 
 
 Ocruiiritiijru. 
 
 
 Ag^.s.. 
 
 Tot 
 
 
 ' ■ 
 
 
 
 
 als. 
 
 
 
 
 15-25. 
 
 ■2.-)-45 
 
 45-60 
 and oV||er. 
 
 'i 
 
 
 
 
 Glass Blowers 
 
 ] 
 
 
 
 
 
 "1 
 
 
 
 3,080 
 
 2,660 
 
 810 
 
 6,550 
 
 
 
 Other Glassworkers 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Mean 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 General Labourers 
 
 
 1,250 
 
 1,400 
 
 950 
 
 3,600 
 
 
 Population 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 - 28,950 
 
 
 Colliery Workers 
 
 
 1,690 
 
 3,100 
 
 1,170 
 
 5,960 
 
 
 1903-1906. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Chemical Worker.i 
 
 
 270 
 
 590 
 
 370 
 
 1,230 
 
 
 
 Others 
 
 
 4,000 
 
 4,750 
 
 2,800 
 
 11,610 
 
 
 
 Glass Blowers - 
 
 ) 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 ■65 
 
 ■2 -OS 
 
 2^77 
 
 r52 
 
 
 Death 
 
 Other Glassworkers 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Rates per 
 
 General Labourers 
 
 
 •80 
 
 1-78 
 
 2^10 
 
 1 
 
 rss 
 
 1 
 
 1- 1 ■34 
 
 1,000, 
 
 Colliery Workers - 
 
 
 •OS 
 
 •64 
 
 2-13 
 
 ■84 
 
 
 per annum. 
 
 Chemical Workers 
 
 
 •00 
 
 211 
 
 2-70 
 
 l^Sl 
 
 
 
 Others 
 
 
 ■55 
 
 ^■05 
 
 1^52 1 
 
 139 
 
 
 APPENDIX VI, 
 
 Letter from Mr. Allan Greenwell, A.M. I.C, 
 
 Dear Sie, — I have received your letter of the 1st 
 inst., and have much pleasure in replying to the ques- 
 tion contained therein as follows : — 
 
 1. The chemical composition of the hard freestone 
 quarried in the neighbourhood of Edinburgh and used as 
 the principal building stone in that city. 
 
 The building stone principally used in Edinburgh is 
 a carboniferous sandstone, a typical instance being the 
 well-known Craigleith stone. The Craigleith stone 
 consists of " fine quartz grains with a siliceous cement ; 
 slightly calcareous ; occasional plates of mica." The 
 following is an analysis : — 
 
 Silica - - 98^3 
 
 Carbonate of Lime !•! 
 
 Iron Alumina - 0'6 
 
 (Report with reference to the selection of stone for 
 
 building the new Houses of Parliament, 1839). 
 
 2. The character of the seams, whether thick or thin, 
 and the character of the coal, and of the stone in imme- 
 diate relation with the coal, in the following collieries 
 which, I believe, are quite close to one another at St. 
 Selens: — Ma,vannah, Ashion's Green, Collin's Green, 
 Bold Colliery, Whitecross Colliery. Southport Colliery. 
 
 All of these, as you say, are in the St. Helens 
 district. " St. Helens district has beneath several beds 
 of inferior Delf coals ; St. Helens Main coal, Four-feet- 
 coal, Cannel, Ravenhead Main coal. Bastions Mine, 
 Rus(hey Park coal, for steam and furnace purposes, 
 Little Delf or Arley Mine, more bituminous than the 
 above, softer and less bright, used chiefly for smithy 
 purposes and for coking, the Haydock Higher Florida 
 
 E., in reply to certain questions addressed to him. 
 
 coals, clean and durable and largely used on ocean 
 steamers, as well as at the Cheshire Saltworks ; the 
 Florida Main seam.— (iV.JB.— These two seem to be the 
 St. Helens Main coal and the Four-feet seam respec- 
 tively.) The Little Delf of St. Helens is the Arley 
 Main of Wigan, the Riley Mine of Bolton, the Dogshaw^ 
 Mine of Bury, and the FuUedge Main coal of Barnsley. 
 This is the lowest coal seam of the Middle coal measures,, 
 and is of great economic value." 
 
 ("Analyses of British Coals and Coke," GreenwelL 
 and Elsden, 1907.) 
 
 The thickness of the seams vary from, the Cannel 
 coal, 1 foot 6 inches, to the St. Helens Main coal, 9 feet 
 (" Coalfields of Great Britain," Edward Hull, 1905). 
 Associated with the coal measures are beds of impure 
 siliceous stone containing carbonaceous and ferruginous- 
 matter, the amount of silica rising to upwards of 90 
 per cent. The highest percentage of silica is found m 
 the Gannister beds. These beds, however, are con- 
 fined to the lower coal measures which are not reached' 
 in the St. Helens district. . ^ . ,. . ,- . 
 
 3. The nature of the stone quarried m the immediate 
 neighbourhood of EuddersAeld. 
 
 The stone quarried in the immediate vicinity of 
 Huddersfield comes from : (1) the Lower Coal 
 Measures. (2) The Millstone Grit, and is m each case 
 highly siliceous, containing over 90 per cent, of silica. 
 
 If you require more detailed information please let 
 me know, and I will do my best to meet your require- 
 ments.— I remain, _ 
 
 Tours very truly, 
 Allan Greenwell. 
 
 3 A2 
 
:i(js 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 APPENDIX VII. 
 
 riGri!i.s furnished by Dr. E. DaviEs 
 
 Swansea, Maroli 20th, 1907. 
 
 Dear Sir, — I fear you will be disappointed with the 
 figui'es I am sending herewith, as I confess I am my- 
 self, th'j results being in the opposite direction from 
 what was anticipated. I think the return will hav€) 
 to be altogether disregaTded. I believe it is vitiated by 
 the omission of deaths due to the scheduled diseases, 
 owing to want of definiteness of the entries in regard 
 to " occupations. '' Some few " labourers " were iden- 
 
 tified as employed in tiuplate works on inquii-y by 
 the inspectors, whilst many others oould not be identi- 
 fied at all, and had to be excluded. 
 
 I am. Dear Sir, 
 
 Faithfully yours, 
 
 Eben Davibs, m.o.h. 
 Frank Elliott, Esq., 
 Home Office, 
 
 Swansea, 1901-05. 
 
 DEATHS OF MALE TINWOKKERS FROM CERTAIN SPECIFIED DISEASES. AT 
 
 SUBJOINED AGES. 
 
 
 
 
 
 At ; 
 
 ige.-. 
 
 
 Total 
 
 
 1.5-25 
 
 25-35 
 
 35-45 
 
 45-55 
 
 55-65 
 
 65-75 
 
 75-85 
 
 85- 
 
 
 Phthisis 
 
 4 
 
 10 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 25 
 
 DISEASES OF HEART AND CIRCULATORY SYSTEM. 
 
 Pericarditis ; Endocarditis ; 
 Valvular Disease. 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 1 — 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 5 
 
 Other Diseases ; Syncope 
 
 
 
 ■> '2 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 — . 
 
 — 9 
 
 Aneurysm 
 
 — 
 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 — , — 
 
 Angina pectoris 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 _ 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 - 
 
 Embolism ; Thrombosis 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 Senile gangrene 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 -- 
 
 — 
 
 
 1 
 
 3 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 .1 
 
 — 1 14 
 
 DISEASES OF ORGANS OF RESPIRATION. 
 
 Laryngitis 
 
 — 
 
 -- 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 Bronchitis 
 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 •2 
 
 — 
 
 -- 
 
 
 4 
 
 Pneumonia - 
 
 2 
 
 — 
 
 2 
 
 ~ 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — , 
 
 H 
 
 Pleurisy - . i 
 
 — 
 
 
 — 
 
 1 ■ 
 
 -- 
 
 — 
 
 ,. — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 Asthma ; Emphysema 
 
 -- ■ 
 
 ^ ■:-r- 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 — . 
 
 — 
 
 ~ 
 
 — 
 
 Other respiratory diseases 
 
 ■ — ' 
 
 
 ~ 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I 
 
 
 2 
 
 — 
 
 3 
 
 3 
 
 5 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 14 
 
 Total population Tin workers (males) at Census -• - - ■ 
 Phthisis deaths 25 = 5 annually = annual rate of mortality 
 Heart diseases 14 = 2 8 a7.mually = annual rate of mortality 
 Respiratory diseases 14 = 2'8 annually = annual rate of mortality 
 
 2186 
 
 2-29 per 1,000 
 
 1-28 . „ 
 1-28 
 
 March 20th, 1907. 
 
 E. Davies. 
 
1-)E1'A RT.^rE^"TAL IJUMMJTTEE ON IN'iJUS'l'HiAL DISEASES. 
 
 oOi) 
 
 Swansea, 1901-05. 
 
 DEATHS OF MALES FROM CERTAIN SPECIFIED DISEASES aT SUBJOINED AGES. 
 
 ALL CLASSES OF POPULATION. 
 
 Diseases. 
 
 Phthisis 
 
 15-25 20-35 35-45 
 70 106 78 
 
 At asres. 
 
 45-55 
 
 70 
 
 55-65 
 
 29 
 
 65-75 
 
 13 
 
 75-85 
 
 85- 
 
 Total. 
 
 365 
 
 or 
 
 73 per ami. 
 
 DISEASES OF HEART AND CIRCULATORY SYSTEM. 
 
 Pericarditis ; Endocarditis ; 
 Valvular Disease. 
 
 Other Diseases ; Syncope 
 
 -Aneurysm 
 
 Angina pectoris 
 
 .Embolism ; Thrombosis 
 
 Senile gangrene 
 
 19 
 
 14 
 
 24 
 
 29 
 
 35 
 
 54 
 
 44 
 
 17 
 
 1 
 
 9 
 
 20 
 
 25 
 
 29 
 
 7 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 6 
 
 2 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 3 
 
 6 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 5 
 
 2 
 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 
 40 
 
 64 
 
 91 
 
 82 
 
 31 
 
 1 
 
 213 
 
 99 
 9 
 
 IS 
 
 -t 
 10 
 
 353 
 
 or 
 
 rO'6 per ami. 
 
 DISEASES OF ORGANS OF RESPIRATION. 
 
 Laryngitis 
 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 ■L 
 
 Bronchitis 
 
 1 
 
 4 
 
 9 
 
 27 
 
 52 
 
 61 
 
 25 
 
 3 
 
 182 
 
 Pneumonia - 
 
 12 
 
 17 
 
 23 
 
 38 
 
 35 
 
 24 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 158 
 
 Pleurisy 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 4 
 
 2 
 
 — 
 
 36 
 
 Afithma ; Emphysema 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 10 
 
 9 
 
 2 
 
 — 
 
 32 
 
 ■Other respiratory diseases 
 
 18 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 5 
 
 i 
 
 28 
 
 43 
 
 80 
 
 106 
 
 99 j 
 
 37 
 
 4 
 
 415 
 
 or 
 
 83 per ann. 
 
 Total population (males), 15 years and upwards, -* Census mi-^^^^ _ 30,315. 
 
 Annual average Phthisis " deaths, 1901-:5 (males), 15 and upwards, 73 = 2;34 per 1,000. 
 
 ; „ „ Respiratpry disease „ „ « , » A~lA " 
 
 .. Heart „ „ ,. » " 71-2-8 „ „ 
 
 Estiniated on the total males, 15 and upwards, te ti^worken f2,186 in 1901) = 28,922. Thus- 
 ' Phthisis, less tinworkers, 340 = 68 ann. = 2-35 per 1,000. 
 
 Heart Diseases 
 Respiratory diseases 
 
 339 = 6-78 „ =2-34 
 
 401=80-2 „ =2-7" 
 
 March 20th, 1907. 
 
 E. Davies, i\r.O.H 
 
Al'l'EXDIX: 
 
 APPENDIX VIII. 
 
 Statement by Dr. H. Malet. 
 
 Health Offices, Red Lion Street, 
 Wolverhampton, 
 February Uth, 1907. 
 
 Indttstrial Diseases Committee. 
 
 Deae Sib, — In accordance with the request of the 
 Committee of Enquiry, held here on the 14th ultimo, I 
 have tabulated the deaths registered as phthisis in this 
 borough for the last five years and I enclose the table 
 with some explanatory remarks. — I am, 
 
 Yours faithfully, 
 Henry Malet, 
 Medical Officer of Health. 
 Frank Elliott, Esq., 
 
 Secretary to the Industrial Diseases Committee, 
 Home Office, Whitehall, S.W. 
 
 Health Offices, Wolverhampton. 
 
 Memoranda re Plitldain Deaths. 
 Deaths have been registered under such various head- 
 ings as phthisis, pulmonary phthisis, etc., without 
 special mention of tubercle ; all these I have classified 
 as " phthisis " in the annexed table ; returns made as 
 pulmonary tuberculosis, tuberculosis of lungs, etc., I 
 have classified as pulmonary tuberculosis. A very few 
 returns have been made as consumption or pulmonary 
 haemorrhage ; these are classified apart. During the 
 five years, out of 443 deaths under the various phthisis 
 headings, certified by from fifty to sixty different 
 doctors, only one has been returned as fibroid 
 phthisis : — George Chinn, age forty, of 5, Court, Swan 
 Street (rather near large edge tool works where grinding 
 
 is done), died January 20th, 1906, certified by Dr. S. 
 Poole, who gave evidence before the Parliamentary 
 Committee here. 
 
 The east sub-district contains many factories, several 
 large edge tool works where much grinding is done, and 
 has mainly a working class population ; its population 
 is at present apparently on the decline. The west has- 
 a large proportion of residential property, and much 
 more better class artisan property than the east, it is- 
 more open ; it contains some factories, and grinding is 
 done in many of them ; lock, key and cycle for instance, 
 but stone grinding only in a few. The west population 
 is rapidly increasing, and at present the populations of 
 the east and west sub-districts are as 2 to 3. The 
 Census Returns give me no details of occupation such 
 as would enable me to make even a guess at the number 
 of persons engaged in grinding. This makes it diffi- 
 cult to draw any conclusion as to the effect of grinding 
 on the phthisis returns. Our figures show male 
 mortality greater than female, the difference increas- 
 ing rapidly with age, but this increase is even more 
 marked in phthisis definitely stated to be tubercular 
 than in the other phthises, and would only imply that 
 the conditions of males rendered them more liable to 
 tubercle as age advances. Conditions such as greater 
 exposure to sources of infection in workshops, and 
 personal habits. Comparison with similar statistics 
 from a non-grinding district might show something. 
 
 The comparison of the two sub-districts is interest- 
 ing, but, in the absence of more definite information as 
 to the numbers engaged in grinding, seems useless in 
 reference to the present question ; apparently there is 
 more stone-grinding in the east, but much more total 
 grinding, emery, etc.) in the west. 
 
 Henry Maiet, 
 
 Medical Officer of Health 
 
 COUNTY BOROUGH OF WOLVERHAMPTON. 
 
 Deaths Registered as Phthisis, etc., during Five Years. 
 
 
 
 - 
 
 Ma 
 Fe 
 
 East Sub-district. 
 
 
 
 West Sub-district. 
 
 
 Population — Census 1901 
 
 Jes 20,514 
 males 19,764 
 
 Males 25,799 
 Females 28,110 
 
 
 
 Ages, years. 
 
 
 Ages, years. 
 
 live years (1902-6). 
 
 15 
 
 15 
 to 
 25 
 
 25 
 to 
 35 
 
 35 
 
 to 
 45 
 
 45 
 
 to 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 to 
 65 
 
 65 
 
 All 
 ages 
 
 15 
 
 15 
 to 
 25 
 
 25 
 
 to 
 35 
 
 35 
 to 
 45 
 
 45 
 to 
 55 
 
 55 
 to 
 65 
 
 65 
 
 All 
 ages 
 
 
 M. - 
 
 2 
 
 12 
 
 18 
 
 27 27 
 
 4 
 
 
 90 
 
 1 
 4 i 14 
 
 21 
 
 25 
 
 21 
 
 t 
 
 3 
 
 95 
 
 Phthisis 
 
 F. - 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 17 
 
 13 ' 9 
 
 4 
 
 - 
 
 54 
 
 5 
 
 11 
 
 12 
 
 14 
 
 7 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 
 54 
 
 
 M. - 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 11 
 
 17 '. 8 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 50 
 
 4 
 
 6 
 
 13 
 
 7 
 
 11 
 
 1 
 
 * 
 
 42 
 
 Pulmonary Taberculosis- 
 
 F. 
 
 3 
 
 7 
 
 t 
 
 4 2 
 
 2 
 
 
 25 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 9 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 i- 
 
 1 
 
 28 
 
 (.'onsumption and 
 Pulmonary Hosmorrhage- 
 
 M. - 
 F. - 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 - ! 1 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 ~ 
 
 -\ 3 
 
 
 M. - 
 
 
 
 1 - 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 1 
 
 - 1 
 
 _ 
 
 
 _ 
 
 _ ; _ 
 
 Fibroid Phthisis 
 
 F. - 
 
 
 II 
 
 - 
 
 
 ■ 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 M. 
 
 4 
 
 15 29 45 36 12 
 
 1 
 
 142 
 
 8 1 21 
 
 30 
 
 32 
 
 32 
 
 8 
 
 3 
 
 140 
 
 Total 
 
 1'. - 
 
 8 
 
 13 24 17 11 1 6 
 
 i 1 ; 
 
 79 
 
 9 
 
 15 
 
 21 
 
 22 
 
 8 
 
 5 
 
 2 
 
 82 
 
l>i:i'AfrrMENTAL COMMITTEE OX INDUSTRIAL DISEASE.S. 
 
 871 
 
 APPENDIX IX. 
 
 SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE OF PROFESSOR LINDSAY ON DISEASES OP FLAX 
 
 WORKERS IN BELFAST. 
 
 1. Total number of flaxworkers. 
 
 The figure given by me to the Committee — 
 60,000 — is approximately correct for Belfast and 
 dijstrict. For Belfast alone the figure is about 
 40,000. 
 
 2. Proportion of workers in the various departments. 
 
 Spinners 
 
 DofEers 
 
 Preparing hands 
 
 Carders 
 
 Reelers 
 
 Haoklers 
 
 35 per cent. 
 25 
 
 7 
 
 2 
 20 
 11 
 
 100 
 
 These figures are approximate. The number of the 
 various classes is different in different mills. 
 
 3. Average ages of the workers in the various depart- 
 ments. 
 
 No statistics on this point are available. In 
 general, the epinners are young and middle-aged 
 women, the doffers are young women, the prepar- 
 ing hands, carders, and reelers are women of 
 various ages, the haoklers are chiefly adult men, 
 but boys are employed in machine hackling. 
 
 4. Total number of all intern patients in the Royal 
 Victoria Hospital. 
 
 Annual average, 2,900 to 3,000. 
 
 5. Tbtal number of flaxworkers treated in the Royal 
 Victoria Hospital. 
 
 Annual average, 280 to 300, i.e., about 10 per 
 cent, of the total. 
 
 6. Present population of Belfast. 
 
 360,000 to 370,000. 
 
 James A. Lin-dsat. 
 March 5th. 1907. 
 
 Flaxworkers Suffering from Lung Diseases and treated by Dr. Robert Hall in his Wards 
 in the Belfast Union Infirmary during the year 1906, giving Average Age, etc. 
 
 Males. 
 
 Females. 
 
 Weavers 
 
 9 
 
 Rovers - 
 
 3 
 
 Spinners 
 
 12 
 
 Dofters- 
 
 — 
 
 Brawers 
 
 — 
 
 Reelers 
 
 8 
 
 Preparers 
 
 5 
 
 Winders - 
 
 9 
 
 Spreaders 
 
 4 
 
 Carders 
 
 .7 
 
 1 
 
 
 Diseases. 
 
 (In years) 
 
 Ages range 
 
 from 
 
 Number 
 
 living. 
 
 Bronchitis. 
 
 CI 
 
 ^ ■ 
 
 > <^ 
 
 < 
 
 Number 
 
 living. 
 
 Phthisis. 
 
 feo 
 < 
 
 Number 
 
 dead. 
 
 Bronchitis. 
 
 Average 
 age. 
 
 Number 
 
 deaH, 
 Phthisis. 
 
 1 
 
 Ocoapations. 
 
 Bron- 
 chitis. 
 
 Phthi- 
 sis. 
 
 < 
 
 Weavers 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 17 to 69 
 
 2 
 
 524 
 
 3 
 
 33 
 
 1 
 
 69 
 
 1 
 
 17 
 
 Roughers 
 
 3 
 
 8 
 
 25 to 68 
 
 2 
 
 52i 
 
 4 
 
 35i 
 
 1 
 
 60 
 
 4 
 
 43 
 
 Hacklers 
 
 35 
 
 14 
 
 24 to 75 
 
 34 
 
 53i 
 
 4 
 
 44J 
 
 I 
 
 60 
 
 10 
 
 40 
 
 Siiinnera 
 
 2 
 
 1 
 
 16 to 68 
 
 1 
 
 55 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 I 
 
 68 
 
 1 
 
 l(i 
 
 Drawers 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 17 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 17 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 Yarn Dressers 
 
 — 
 
 3 
 
 32 to 54 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 2 
 
 43 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 32 
 
 Yarn Bundlers 
 Machine Boys 
 
 1 
 
 5 
 6 
 
 29 to 40 
 16 to 20 
 
 1 
 
 29 
 
 5 
 
 33i 
 16 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 3 
 
 18i 
 
 21 
 
 16 to 60 
 
 8 
 
 46f 
 
 15 
 
 301- 
 
 1 
 
 56 
 
 6 
 
 28g 
 
 13 
 
 18 to 52 
 
 3 
 
 43i 
 
 10 
 
 27tV 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 29i 
 
 38 
 
 19 to 70 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 26 
 
 30 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 12 
 
 30 if 
 
 5 
 
 14 to 17 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 4 
 
 15i 
 
 — 
 
 
 1 
 
 14 
 
 9 
 
 22 to 60 
 
 
 
 — 
 
 6 
 
 35J 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 3 
 
 M\ 
 
 9 
 
 18 to 76 
 
 8 
 
 55 
 
 6 
 
 36 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 3 
 
 44i 
 
 2 
 
 25 to 67 
 
 5 
 
 4T 
 
 1 
 
 25 
 
 — 
 
 — 
 
 1 
 
 .30 
 
 6 
 
 18 to 64 
 
 7 
 
 40 
 
 5 
 
 40 
 
 2 
 
 -60 
 
 1 
 
 37 
 
 3 
 
 20 to 42 
 
 4 
 
 364 
 
 2 
 
 31 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 2S 
 
 3 
 
 25 to 52 
 
 2 
 
 29i 
 
 3 
 
 34i 
 
 " 
 
 
 „.. 
 
 --- 
 
AI'PEXDIX : 
 
 APPENDIX X. 
 
 Stiitistics furnished by Dr. G. Petueave Johnson. 
 
 Feb. 21st, 1907. 
 Dear Sir, — 
 
 Since returning to Stoke I have been able to ga more 
 cai-efully into the statistics of deaths among potters' 
 pressers. I find that during the seven years 1900-1906 
 of potters' pressers living in Stoke 47 died. Of these 
 14 died of bronchitis, 15 of phthisis, and 5 of pneu- 
 monia — i.e., over 72 per cent, of the dearfihs were due 
 to lung diseases. If the deaths in the North Stafford 
 Infirmary and the Stoke-upon-Trent Union Hospital 
 are included, then 112 deaths among potFers' pressers 
 occurred in the same seven years. Of these 31 were due 
 to bronchitis, 43 to phthisis, and 4 to pneumonia — i.e., 
 70 per cent, of the deaths were due to lung diseases. 
 Tliese figures are correct. 
 
 I find during the seven 3'ears 1900-1906, in not a 
 single instance in any of the deaths amongst potters' 
 pressers occurring in the X.S. Infirmary or in the 
 Workhouse Hospital or in the Borough of Stoke, is 
 fibroid phthisis or potters' asthma, or cirrhosis of the 
 lungs, or fibroid pneumonia given as the cause of death. 
 
 Broncthitis, phthisis, pulmonary tiiberculosiis, pneu- 
 monia are the diseases of the lungs which are men- 
 tioned. 
 
 I should like to supplement what I wrote previously 
 iby stating that the changes in the lungS' oaiused by the 
 particles, of dust progress very slowly, years passing 
 during the development. Should tuberculosis of the 
 lungs supervene, the man dies within, a comparatively 
 short time, and any lung changes due to dust do not 
 attract attention. Should bronchitis develop, how- 
 ever, he survives for years, and latterly, in the intervals 
 (if any) of comparative freedom from bronchitis, the 
 lung changes due to dust may attract attention or may 
 not. The bronohitic symptoms, however, always attract 
 more attention. 
 
 I am, Sir, yours faithfully, 
 
 Gr. Pbtgkave JoHfrsoN. 
 
 The Chairman, 
 
 The Industrial Diseases Committee. 
 
HEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 373 
 
 APPENDIX XI. 
 
 Statistics furnished by Dr. Dawes of Deaths from the chief Potters' Eespirator.y Diseases, from 1898-1906, 
 
 in Lons'ton, 'Staffordshire. 
 
 
 
 Bronchitis. 
 
 
 
 
 • 
 Potters only. 
 
 Per cent of Total deaths 
 from Bronchitis. 
 
 Total deaths from Bronchitis, 
 including Potters. 
 
 i 
 
 168 
 
 19 
 
 
 870 
 
 1898- 
 
 21 
 
 22 
 
 1898- 
 
 96 
 
 1899- 
 
 26 
 
 31 
 
 1899- 
 
 83 
 
 1 
 
 1900 
 
 22 
 
 23 
 
 1900- 
 
 93 
 
 1901- 
 
 19 
 
 17 
 
 1901- 
 
 109 
 
 1902- 
 
 22 
 
 17 
 
 1902 - 
 
 124 
 
 1903- 
 
 12 
 
 16 
 
 1903- 
 
 76 
 
 1904- 
 
 15 
 
 18 
 
 1904- 
 
 81 
 
 1905- 
 
 19 
 
 17 
 
 1905 - 
 
 108 
 
 1906 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 1906 - 
 
 100 
 
 Phthisis, including Fibroid Phthisis. 
 
 Potters only. 
 
 
 197 
 
 1898- 
 
 22 
 
 1899- 
 
 26 
 
 1900- 
 
 18 
 
 1901- 
 
 22 
 
 1902 
 
 23 
 
 1903- 
 
 23 
 
 1904- 
 
 24 
 
 1905- 
 
 14 
 
 1906 ■ 
 
 25 
 
 Per cent, of Total deaths 
 from Phthisis. 
 
 44-3 
 63 
 
 57 
 34 
 40 
 41 
 44 
 44 
 36 
 40 
 
 Total deaths from Phthisis, 
 including Potters. 
 
 1898- 
 1899- 
 1900- 
 1901- 
 1902- 
 1903- 
 1904- 
 1905 - 
 1906- 
 
 449 
 
 35 
 
 45 
 52 
 54 
 56 
 52 
 54 
 39 
 62 
 
 PoTTEEs' Asthma. 
 
 Potters only. 
 
 56 
 
 Per cent, of Total deaths 
 from Asthma. 
 
 Over 90 
 
 Total deaths from Asthma, 
 including Potters. 
 
 62 
 
 SB 
 
 419 
 
:^74 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 APPENDIX XII. 
 
 Statistics furnished by Dr. Tatham. 
 
 Table I.— England and Wales, 1900-1-2.— Comparative Mortality figure for Phthisis and Diseases of 
 Respiratory System in certain specified occupations. 
 
 Occupation. 
 
 Phthisis and Diseases of the 
 Respiratory System 
 
 Mortality 
 Figure. 
 
 Ratio. 
 
 Phthisis. 
 
 of Respiratory 
 System. 
 
 Mortality Figure. 
 
 Agricmlttirist - 
 
 Dock Labourer, Wharf Labourer 
 
 Potter ; Earthenware, &c.. Manufacture 
 
 Cutler ; Scissors Maker 
 
 Tin Miner 
 
 Nail, Anchor Chain, and other Iron and Steel 
 Manufactures. 
 
 161 
 632 
 741 
 812 
 1,577 
 493 
 
 100 
 393 
 460 
 504 
 980 
 306 
 
 79 
 291 
 
 277 
 516 
 838 
 182 
 
 Stone, Slate — Quarrier 
 
 390 
 
 242 
 
 Brass, Bronze, Manufacturer, Founder, Finisher, 
 Worker. 
 
 469 
 
 291 
 
 Bricklayer, Mason, Builder 
 
 364 
 
 226 
 
 82 
 341 
 464 
 296 
 739 
 311 
 
 186 
 
 204 
 
 262 
 
 207 
 
 188 
 
 176 
 
 The Table is to be read thus : — Among a certain number of males aged 25-65 years in the general population 
 1,000 deaths occurred during the years 1900-1-2 ; of these 1,000 deaths, 186 were due to Phthisis and 174 to 
 Diseases of the Respiratory System. Among an equal number of Agriculturists living at the same ages there were 
 79 deaths from Phthisis and 82 from diseases of the Respiratory System. Among an equal number of Dock 
 Labourers, 291 and 341 respectively, and so on. 
 
 John Tatham, M.D. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE (IX IN]JUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
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376 
 
 APPENDIX 
 
 APPENDIX XIII. 
 
 Letter from Mr. Gregor, Managing Director of the Graigola Merthyr Co., Ltd., Swansea. 
 
 The Graigola Merthyr Co., Ltd. 
 
 (Late Cory, Yeo and Co.), 
 Colliery Proprietors and Patent Fuel 
 Manufacturers. 
 
 Swansea, March 11th, 1907. 
 Frank Elliott, Esq., 
 
 Home Office, Whitehall. 
 
 Dbab Sik, — I beg to acknowledge receipt of yours 
 of the 9th inst., with proof of my evidence. 
 
 Since appearing before the Commission I have 
 thought the whole matter over very fully, and have 
 
 consulted the representatives of the other works in 
 the port. 
 
 We have decided not to object to the whole of the 
 workmen being scheduled if the disea§e_oi pitch wart 
 and pitch blindness is clearly defined in such a manner 
 that there can be no doubt of the exiistence of the 
 disease when cases are brought before us. 
 
 Under thesi3 circumstances, it will not be necessary 
 for me to submit further evidence or to appear before 
 the Commisision in London. 
 
 Tours truly, 
 
 S. L. Gkeoob. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMriTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
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DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 381 
 
 APPENDIX XV. 
 
 Letter from Me. H. Orbell as to illness of men engaged in the removal of night-soil. 
 
 Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers' 
 Union of Great Britain and Ireland, 
 
 Registered Office, 425, IMile End Road, 
 London, E. 
 
 April 22nd, 1907. 
 Mr. Herbert Samuel, M.P. 
 
 Dear Sir, — 
 The result of my investigation into the dangerous 
 conditions under which the night-soil men work is as 
 follows, and which I wish to lay before you as evidence, 
 to show the necessity of this work being scheduled 
 under the Compensation Act as dangerous work. 
 
 There are about from twelve to fourteen thousand 
 men employed in the above-named work (night-soil 
 collecting) in 90 towns. 
 
 Accrington, Ashton-under-Lyne, Aston Manor, 
 Barnsley, Barrow-in-Furness, Bath, Birkenhead, 
 Birmingham, Blackburn, Bolton, Bournemouth, 
 Bootle, Bradford, Brighton, Bristol, Burnley, Burton- 
 on-Trent, Buiy, Cambridge, Cardiff, Carlisle, Chelten- 
 ham, Chester, Colchester, Coventry, Croydon, Darling- 
 ton, Darwen, Derby, Devonport, Dover, Dudley, East- 
 bourne, Exeter, Gateshead, Gloucester, Great Yar- 
 mouth, Grimsby, Halifax, Hanley, Hastings, Homsey, 
 Huddersfield, Hull, Ipswich, Jarrow, Keighley, Leeds, 
 Leicester, Leyton, Lincoln, Liverpool, Longton, 
 Macclesfield, Manchester, Merthyr Tydfil, Middles- 
 brough, Newcastle-on-Tyne, Newport, Northampton, 
 Norwich, Oldham, Oxford, Plymouth, Portsmouth, 
 Preston, Reading, Rochdale, Rotherham, Salford, 
 Scarborough, Sheffield, Smethwick, Southport, South 
 Shields, Southampton, St. Helens, Stockport, Stock- 
 ton-on-Tees, Sunderland, Swansea, Tottenham, Tyne- 
 mouth, Wakefield, Walsall, Walthamstow, West 
 Bromwich, Warrington, West Ham, West Hartlepool, 
 Wigan, Wolverhampton, Worcester, Willesden, York, 
 Ystradyfodwg (Rhondda), Nottingham. 
 
 The work of collecting and disposing of night-soil in 
 the above-named towns does not only expose the work- 
 men to great risks to their health, but also to the 
 general public. The nature of the work is as follows : 
 — The men after 12 o'clock at night enter the back- 
 yards and remove the sanitary pans and empty the 
 contents into open carts in the street. This method 
 chiefly applies to Middlesbrough, where most of the 
 houses have an entrance to the yard from the back. In 
 some other towns they work on what is known as the 
 duplicate system, viz., removing the full pan and sub- 
 stituting a clean one. There are 14 towns covered by 
 about 2,500 men who have adopted the duplicate 
 system. 
 
 In Hull, the method of collecting night-soil is most 
 dangerous and offensive, both to the workmen em- 
 ployed and the occupants of the houses from which they 
 collect. Most of the houses in Hull, where the sani- 
 tary pan system is in practice, there are no back 
 entrances. The only way of getting to the privies and 
 middens is through the house, and it must be col- 
 lected between the hours of 6.30 and 8.30 a.m. These 
 night-soil collectors come right through the living 
 rooms into the yard, where they fill the " stuff muck," 
 as they call it locally, into a tub, which is hoisted on 
 the head of one of the men and then carried through 
 the same living rooms, often when the family are at 
 breakfast, and then tipped into an open cart in the 
 street. The whole thing is horrible beyond descrip- 
 tion, and dangerous alike to the men who do the work 
 and the community in general. 
 
 In other towns where there are what are known as 
 pan closets, the work is done during the night, com- 
 mencing about 12 p.m. and finishing about 7 a.m. 
 Under this system the duty of the men is to haul the 
 pans out of the privies, whence they are carried down 
 the back passage and tipped into carts. The refuse 
 is subsequently removed to a destructor, or to barges 
 to be taken out to sea. In some cases there are mid- 
 
 419. 
 
 dens into which falls all the refuse from the privies 
 and the usual household refuse, ashes, etc. Where 
 these middens exist the work has to be done under 
 conditions too horrible and loathsome to be described. 
 Suffice it to say that pien have to stand in 12 to 18 
 inches of foul water in a hole 8 to 10 feet wide, and 
 throw out the foul-smelling stuff through a small trap- 
 door into a wheelbarrow, from which it is again filled 
 into a cart. 
 
 The night-soil collector is in constant danger of con- 
 tracting diseases, especially when collecting from those 
 houses where there are sicknesses, as the whole of the 
 refuse from the sick room, including poultices and 
 lotion bandages, are deposited in sanitary pans, mid- 
 dens, or ash-pits as they are sometimes called. 
 
 The principal diseases from which these night-soil 
 men suffer are erysipelas, typhoid, eczema, blood 
 poisoning, and similar diseases. In the case of blood 
 poisoning it very often happens as the men are remov- 
 ing the pans they knock their hands, it being dark, 
 and the space is very limited ; one can very easily 
 understand how a man is apt to knock himself under 
 such circumstances. The filth that he is handling gets 
 into the wound, and thus blood poisoning sets in. 
 Again, I know of cases where that part of the man's 
 flesh which is exposed, he has scratched it, and so 
 conveyed the poison to his blood in that way. 
 
 I here quote a few cases from Middlesbrough. 
 
 The first one is , suffering from erysipelas. 
 
 from the beginning of September, attended to by Dr. 
 
 L , who was of opinion that he had contracted the 
 
 disease whilst following his employment as a night- 
 soil man. The doctor's grounds for forming this 
 opinion were that in cases of this disease rags soaked 
 in lotion are usually laid on the affected parts, and 
 are constantly changed and the old ones are thrown 
 into the sanitary pan, and in dealing with the refuse 
 the man is liable to touch one of these rags, the least 
 contact with which would suffice to communicate the 
 disease. 
 
 Another case is that of , who was at the time 
 
 of investigation in the sanatorium, suffering from 
 typhoid fever. Very strong evidence goes to show he 
 contracted this fever in the discharge of his duty. _ 
 
 Another case is , who died in the sanatorium 
 
 from typhoid, definitely stated, "contracted in the 
 course of his employment." 
 
 I was told of a case in Middlesbrough of one of the 
 men who conveyed the disease of typhoid home to his 
 house, and he and his family were taken to the 
 
 sanatorium. ■ ■ i j.i, 
 
 I am only sorry I cannot get permission from the 
 victims themselves to use their names as evidence. The 
 reasons they give for forbidding that privilege, that it 
 would become known to those in authority and the 
 chances would be that they would be dismissed. 
 
 If you would pardon me for making a suggestion, 
 which, in my opinion, would tend to check the spread- 
 ing of diseases by this work, or in any case would stop 
 thi conveying of the disease to the homes of these 
 workers, I suggest as follows : -That the men employed 
 bv a corporation or contractor should be provided with 
 indiarubber gloves, which would not hamper them m 
 the execution of their duty, and would certainly pre- 
 vent the breaking of the skin should they knock their 
 hands and also they should be found the necessary 
 clothiAg which could be changed when they leave their 
 work at the depot, where they are booked on, and at 
 r very small outlay the necessary baths could be 
 ere^ed at the depot, which would enable the men to 
 chan'e their clothing and bath themselves, putting on 
 tS ordinary clothing before they return to their 
 hories This, at any rate, in my opinion, would pre- 
 vent the conveying of the diseases home to their wife 
 and family.-Yours sincerely, ^ ^^^^^^_ 
 
 3C 
 
382 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 APPENDIX XVI. 
 
 Letter from Dr. Dingle. 
 
 The Health Department, 
 
 Municipal Buildings, Middlesbrough, 
 May 3rd, 1907. 
 Mr. Henhert Samuel, M.P. 
 
 Dear Sir, — I have made inquiries into the statements 
 contajned in the letter of Mr. H. Qrbell to the Indus- 
 trial Diseases Committee relating to the danger of 
 scavengers contracting infectious diseases. 
 
 As the names of the men engaged in collecting night- 
 soil in this town, who are stated to have suffered from 
 typhoid fever and erysipelas, are not given, I have 
 found it very difficult to traos the cases. 
 
 The first ca&o quoted, that of a man named , 
 
 engaged under the Corporation in collecting nightsoil, 
 was notified to me as suffering from erysipelas in Sep- 
 tember last. He had erysipelas of the face. 
 
 The second case was a man named ■ — . 
 
 He was admitted into the sanatorium, having, been 
 notified to me as a case of continued fever. This man 
 was a driver of a nightsoil cart, and his duty was to 
 stand at the head of his horse and to drive it ; he did 
 not handle the pans. 
 
 The third case, that of a man who died at the sana- 
 torium, is probably a man also named , 
 
 a brother of the above. He was admitted into the 
 sanatorium in February, 1902, and died in the hospital. 
 
 I have no knowledge of the man and his family, who 
 are stated to have heen removed to 'fche sanatorium. 
 
 Probably there is some mistake about this, as at the 
 
 time was admitted, in December last 
 
 {vide case No. 2), there was another man, named — - 
 
 , and his wife in hospital with typhoid, but this 
 
 man was no relation, and did not live in th)3 same 
 locality or work for the Corporation. 
 
 The foreman of the men informs me that, so far 
 as is known, three of the men employed collecting 
 nightsoil have died from typhoid fever during the past 
 
 30 years — one (by name — ) about 30 years 
 
 ago, another ( ) about 15 years ago, and 
 
 5 years ago. 
 
 Several of the men have suffered from injuries to the 
 hands, kn.aes, and feet, owing to working in the dark. 
 
 There is a total of 40 men employed collecting night- 
 soil, and 34 men driving nightsoil carts. I do not con- 
 sider that the men employed collecting nightsoil are 
 particularly suibject to typhoid fever, and I have been 
 somewhat surprised at the immunity experienced by 
 workers in sewers and nightsoil. 
 
 The injuries to hands, feet, and knees are not of a 
 serious nature, and it is only exceptionally that ery- 
 sipelas or cellulitis supervenes, and then probably 
 due to want of care and cleanliness on the part of the 
 injured man. 
 
 Yours faithfully, 
 
 Chakles V. Dingle, 
 
 Medical Officer of Health. 
 
 APPENDIX XVII. 
 
 Letter relating to Poisoning by African Boxwood from the Cueatob of 
 THE Pharmaceutical Society, 
 
 Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, 
 
 17, Bloomsbury Square, 
 
 London, W.C., March 28th, 1907. 
 
 Deab Sm, — In reply to your inquiry I was chiefly 
 interested in ascertaining the botanical source of the 
 wood, and thought that the chemical investigation of 
 it might throw some light upoh the point. I found, 
 however, that soon aiterwards Professor Harvey 
 Gibson, of Liverpool, had undertaken the investiga- 
 tion of what I presumed was the same poisonous wood, 
 and it is only now that I find he was working with a 
 different wood altogether. The amount of the wood I 
 was able to obtain was insufficient for an accurate 
 chemical examination, and I fear I can throw no light 
 upon the subject, except that the irritant substance 
 that causes dermatitis does not, so far as I can leam, 
 affect all workers alike. There are a number of people 
 with extra-sensitive skin who are quickly affected by 
 plants of the natural order Anacardiaceae, such as 
 Bhus Toxicodendron and Anacardium occidentale, as 
 well as by such plants as Primula ohconica, a plant 
 commonly cultivated in greenhouses. Such sensitives 
 can usually be detected by the effect of a flea- 
 
 bite, which causes a painful and irritable 
 swelling about the size of a lentil or split 
 pea. Such persons should never be employed to 
 saw or turn woods that contain irritating substances. 
 These irritating principles vary in composition. In 
 Anacardiaceae it is a volatile acid, or a substance 
 known as cardol, in Primula ohconica, a resinous 
 body, and so on. With respect to the satin wood, all 
 that I can tell you is, that the wood of the South 
 African, satin wood is at present under chemical in- 
 vestigation by a clever analyst, Mr. E. F. Harrison, 
 B.Sc. (Lond.), RLO., F.C.S., 5S, Chancery Lane, 
 W.O. Yesterday I tasted some of the cryetais, which 
 under a good lens, can be seen on the wood, 
 and found hardly any effect, just a faint acrid 
 sensation, but nothing more. I thinik it may therefore 
 be taken for granted that the dermatitis is produced 
 only in certain persons who have what doctors call an 
 idiosyncrasy in respect to it, who belong to a class of 
 persons with peculiarly sensitive skisB. With respect 
 to the wood examined and reported on by Professor 
 Harvey Gibson in the " Bio-Ohemical Journal" 
 (Vol. I., p. 39-52, 1906), the poisonous and dangerous 
 effects on the heart indicate that it was a totally dif- 
 ferent wood, although coming from the same district in 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE OK INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 883 
 
 South Africa. I believe that he was mistaken in re 
 fernng it to the plant he did, viz., Sarcocephalus 
 Viderichii, as, in fact, he himself subsequently 
 acknowledged. I beJieve it to have been the South 
 African boxwood, the Gonioma Kamassi, which be- 
 longs to the natural order Apocynaceae, a family that 
 contains many heart poisons. This wood has been 
 examined by Mr. B. F. Harrison, who has found two 
 crystalline principles in it. The difficulty that attends 
 all inquiries of this kind is the confusion that 
 exists between the names applied to different timbers, 
 and the effects made by importers to conceal the names 
 of the ports and country from which they are im- 
 ported. The question of compensation will therefore 
 have to be dealt with on broad lines, since there are 
 many poisonous woods already in commerce pro- 
 ducing different poisonous effects. The South African 
 Boxwood, Oonioma Kamassi, is likely to produce its 
 ill-effects on all workers in it, those with a strong heart 
 
 only suffering a little less than others. Of course, 
 when trees are sawn up in the open air the workers take 
 care to keep to windward, and so do not suffer, but 
 in manufactories this can only be imitated in the same 
 way as is done in Yorkshire with the anthrax infected 
 wool, i.e., by causing a current of air to carry the dust 
 into a furnace away from the worker. Any further 
 information that I may be able to give I shall be 
 pleased to communicate in a personal interview after 
 Easter Monday, if you wish. — I am, dear Sir, youis 
 faithfully, 
 
 E. M. Holmes, F.L.S. 
 Curator, Pharmaceutical Society. 
 
 The Secretary, 
 
 Industrial Diseases Committee, 
 
 Home Office. 
 
 APPENDIX XVIII. 
 
 APPENDIX XIX. 
 
 Letter from Mr. Steadman, M.P. 
 
 Letter from Mr. March. 
 
 The Trades Union Congress 
 
 Parliamentary Committee, 
 
 42-44, Effingham House, 
 
 Arundel Street, Strand, 
 
 London, W.C., 26th March, 1907. 
 
 Dear Mr. Elliott, — I regret to say that at the present 
 time I am unable to give you any names of persons who 
 could give evidence before your Committee on the 
 subject of Asbestos, as I know of no Union connected 
 with that industry. In the meantim^e I am making 
 inquiries, and should I discover anyone capable of 
 giving evidence on this matter I will at once let you 
 know. 
 
 Tours faithfully, 
 
 "W. C. Steadman. 
 
 The London Carmen's Trade Union 
 (Reg. No. 508). 
 
 Registered Office : 
 
 54, Minories, B.C. 
 
 April 9th, 1907. 
 
 The Secretary of State for the Home Department, 
 re Industrial Diseases Committee. 
 
 Dear Sir, — In answer to your letter of the 8th inst. , 
 I am sorry to say that we are not in possession of any 
 medical or veterinary surgeons' evidence on the 
 matter * referred to in your letter. 
 
 I am, yours respectfully, 
 
 S. March, Gten. Sec. 
 
 * " Mange" or " Duke." 
 
 APPENDIX XX. 
 
 Letter from Dr. McDougall as to absence of illness among men employed on cyanide plants. 
 
 Runcorn, Cheshire, 
 
 Dear Sir, April 26, 1907. 
 
 In reply to your letter of the 20th inst. , I write 
 to say that I have no personal experience of the effect 
 of working a cyanide plant, for although the cyanide 
 plant here — which is not a very large one — has been 
 in existence for a few years, no case of disease or 
 injury to the workmen employed upon it has come 
 under my notice, and I feel sure that if there had 
 been any case of disease or damage to a workman, 
 
 such a case would get known to me either directly or 
 indirectly, as I am in constant touch with all the 
 chemical works here, and visiting them frequently, 
 besides seeing them in a professional capacity, and 
 in my capacity as factory surgeon any mishap to a 
 workman from such a cause would I think come under 
 my notice. 
 
 Tours faithfully, 
 
 F. McDougall. 
 
 Frank Elliott, Esq. ' 
 
 419 
 
 3C2 
 
384 
 
 APPEXDIX : 
 
 APPENDIX XXI. 
 
 Report of Dr. Walter Malden 
 on the blood changes brought about by Nitro- and Amido-derivatives of Benzene. 
 
 At tie request of the Home Office Committee on 
 Industrial Liiseases, I visited Bradford and Hudders- 
 field in January and examined the men engaged in 
 anilin black dyeing in the former, and the manu- 
 facture of nitrobenzene derivatives in the latter town, 
 in order to report on the changes produced in the 
 blood by constaiit exposure to these substances. 
 
 It has long been known that cases of poisoning 
 occurred in men working at these trades ; occasionally 
 lives have been lost ; frequently men have been obliged 
 to leave their work for longer or shorter periods ; and 
 very frequently slight oases of poisoning have occurred 
 which, though not severe enough to prevent the men 
 from working, yet have occasioned discomfort and some 
 suffering. 
 
 As will be seen from the aocompanying charts, the 
 following points were noted in every case examined : • — • 
 (1) The man's age, (2) length of employment, (3) 
 number of times off work from illness due to trade ; 
 general appearance as indicated by (4) cyanosis and (5) 
 ■conjunctival pallor. Examination of blood included 
 (6) spectrum analysis, (7) estimation of specific gravity, 
 (8) counts of both red and (9) white corpuscles per 
 cmm., (10) differential percentage count of the different 
 kinds of leucocytes by means of stained films, and (11), 
 by the same means, examination of the physical con- 
 dition of the red corpuscles. Estimation of the per- 
 centage of hsemoglobin by colour tests was also made, 
 but the results were valueless, as explained later on, 
 and have not been tabulated. All the compounds of 
 the nitrobenzene series act on the blood in the same 
 way, but some are much more toxic than others. In 
 the works from which my oases were taken, the m.anu- 
 facture of di-nitro-benzol has caused the greatest 
 number of cases of poisoning that has occurred, and 
 seems to be the most toxic of all these compounds, 
 while anilin hydrochloride used in black dyeing seems 
 to be much less so. 
 
 These bodies may be absorbed either by (1) inhala- 
 tion of their vapours, (2) through the skin, (3) by the 
 alimentary canal. They appear to act on the blood 
 in the same way no matter how they are absorbed ; 
 although probably inhalation of vapour is the com- 
 monest way since cases of poisoning are much more 
 frequent in hot close weather than during the colder 
 seasons of the year. 
 
 They first convert the oxy-hsemoglobin of the red 
 corpuscles into met-heemoglobin, and then hsemolyse 
 them, causing degeneration of the cytoplasm and 
 escape of the haemoglobin into the plasma. 
 
 If the amount of met-hsemoglobin present in the 
 hlood at any given time is not excessive, it appears 
 to be quickly removed by the liver, the iron being 
 used for the production of freSh haemoglobin, and the 
 colouring matter excreted by the kidneys as free 
 urobilin. 
 
 If the amount of poison absorbed is considerable 
 and much haemolysis has occurred, the liver becomes 
 unable to remove all the htemoglobin present in the 
 hlood plasma, and the condition of haemoglobinaemia 
 is established ; this is manifested by the haemoglo- 
 hinuria which follows. 
 
 If a considerable amount of met-haemoglobin is 
 present in the blood, the respiratory capacity of the 
 red corpuscles is diminished, the patient becomes 
 cyanosed and the colour of the blood is changed to a 
 chocolate brown. This fact renders the estimation of 
 hemoglobin in these cases by the ordinary colour 
 standards impossible, as they are based upon the 
 colour of pure oxy-haemoglobin, which is quite different 
 from that of met-hsemoglobin. 
 
 Of the three charts accompanying this report, the 
 first gives tabulated information of the blood condi- 
 tion in anilin dye workers. The -second gives similar 
 information in nitrobenzene workers. The third gives 
 the results of experimental anilin poisoning in the 
 rabbit. 
 
 The anilin dyeri examined were selected on account 
 of their being engaged in those processes which seemed 
 most likely to lead to poisoning. Two of the cases 
 were men who were ofi work in consequence of having 
 been recently poisoned (Nos. 6 and 13). It will be 
 noticed that of the 13 men examined none had been 
 employed for less than one year, the longest time 
 being 15 years. Of these 13 men eight had never been 
 off work at any time, but all had suffered at some time 
 or other from some symptoms of anilin poisoning, 
 those most frequently complained of being headache, 
 drowsiness, nausea, want of appetite, shortness of 
 breath, palpitation, and tingling sensations in the 
 feet and legs. 
 
 I noticed in both the factories from which the cases 
 were taken that there was evidence of anilin vapour 
 being present in the atmosphere. 
 
 All the unpainted deal woodwork was stained a 
 bright yellow colour, and I was informed that this 
 was due to anilin fumes in the air. I tested this state- 
 ment in the laboratory and found it to be an un- 
 doubted fact that unpainted deal becomes quitkly 
 stained yellow in the presence of even very small 
 amounts of anilin vapour, thus constituting a very 
 delicate test for detecting its presence in the air. 
 (Specimens of wood exposed to anilin vapour accom- 
 pany this report.) 
 
 In every case the blood was examined spectro- 
 scopically, but in no case was the spectrum of met- 
 haemoglobin found to be present, nor were any of the- 
 men cyanosed. I found by subsequent experiment that 
 the met-haemoglobin band could not be detected unless 
 that substance was present in at least the propoi-tion 
 of 1 to 10 of axy-hjemoglobin ; thus this substance was 
 present in less than this proportion in the men 
 examined. The specific gravity of the blood was taken 
 in every case and the percentage of haemoglobin cal- 
 culated from it by means of Hammersohlag's table, 
 this being the only available method of estimating it, 
 and one which gives fairly accurate results ; from 
 this the colour index was determined. 
 
 The number of red corpuscles and leucocytes per 
 cmm. was counted in every case, and a differential 
 percentage count of the leucocytes made from stained 
 films. 
 
 Among the anilin dyers the evidence of blood de- 
 struction was not very apparent from the blood counts. 
 It will be seen from Chart No. 1 that 6 out of the 
 13 cases examined had more than tlie normal number 
 of red corpuscles per cmm., the highest being 5,600,000 
 and the lowest 4,400,000. In all probability the effect 
 of absorbing small doses of anilin daily is to stimulate 
 the production of red corpuscles by the Ibone marrow, 
 so that destruction is counterbalanced by renovation. 
 Evidence of this was supplied by the low colour index 
 and imperfect development of the corpuscles. 
 
 None of the men showed signs of cyanosis at the time 
 of examination, but nine of them showed conjunctival 
 pallor. The specific gravity of their blood showed that 
 there was a decrease in hsemoglobin of from 5 to 50 
 per cent. The colour index of all the cases examined 
 was with one exception below unity. The number of 
 leucocytes per cmm. did not show any great departure 
 from the normal ; 8 were above the average and 5 
 below. The highest was 12,000 and the lowest 4,000 
 per cmm. 
 
 Examination of -fche stained blood films gave the most 
 important indication of degeneration in the red cor- 
 puscles. In most of the cas^ the variation in size of the 
 red corpuscles was considerahle, ranging from 5 
 11 M, the larger sizes being the most numerous. None 
 showed any prakilocytosis, but 6 out of the 13 showed 
 basophil granulations in the red" corpuscles. The 
 number of cells affected varied from 2 or 3 in the 
 whole film in the slight cases to 10 or 12 in every 
 field of the microscope in the more pronounced ones. 
 I attach girsat importance to this reaction, because I 
 
BEPAllTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 385 
 
 believe it to (be in anilin poisoning, as it is in lead 
 poisoning, the earliest recognisable sign in the blood. 
 JNo nucleated red corpuscles were found in any case, 
 nor any pathological leucooytas. The differential per- 
 centage leucocyte <;ount showed a departure from the 
 normal in several cases. The number of polymorpho- 
 nuclear cells showed a decrease in 9 out of 13 cases, 
 the decrease being comsideraible in cases 1, 2, 5, 8, and 
 9. There was a corresponding increase in the numbor 
 of lymphocytes, amounting in S cases (Nos. 2, 8, and 
 -.9) to a moderate lymphocytosis. The other cellulaa: 
 elements did not show any marked departure from tha 
 normal. 
 
 Chart II. records the results of a blood examination 
 in men engaged in the manufacture of di-nitro-benzol. 
 All the hands employed wore examined, as this sub- 
 stance is generally believed to be the most poisonous 
 of the nitrobenzene series. 
 
 I was informed that for the last few months the men 
 engaged in these particular works had been constantly 
 shifted, so that they were never employed in the di- 
 jiitro-benzol department for more than a week or two 
 .at a time, in consequence of the number of cases of 
 poisoning which had occurred. 
 
 It will be noticed that the average length of em- 
 ployment is considerably shorter in the nitrobenzene 
 workers than in the anilin dyers. Five of the 21 cases 
 examined had been employed for one week or less, 
 -while only four had been employed for more than one 
 year. This is no doubt owing to the dangerous nature 
 ■of the trade ; very few workers escape poisoning at 
 :some time or other, and so do not care to remain long 
 at it. 
 
 Excluding the five men who had been employed for 
 one week or less, 11 out of the remaining 16 had been 
 ofi work at least once in consequence of being poisoned. 
 All the men, including those who had not left their 
 work, had suffered from some symptoms of poisoning, 
 :suoh as headache, drowsiness, loss of appetite, nausea, 
 shortness of breath, palpitation, cyanosis, and pains in 
 the legs. 
 
 In analysing the cases recorded in C!hart II. , Nos. 19 
 -and 35 had only been employed for one day, and there- 
 fore ssrve as control cases for purposes of comparison 
 with the others, their blood being quite normal. Of 
 the other 19 cases, 13 showed some degree of cyanosis ; 
 in most of them it was slight, and confined to the lips, 
 but in cases 33 and 34 it was well marked. Most of 
 -the men had conjunctival pallor, the exceptions being 
 those employed for one week or less, Nos. 16, 18, 19, 
 20, and 36. The specific gravity of the men's blood 
 was below the normal, except in the five previously- 
 mentioned cases. 
 
 The colour index was in most cases normal, or nearly 
 so, this being probably due to the fact that blood de- 
 struction was unaccompanied by regeneration. 
 
 The (number of red corpuscles per cmm. was normal 
 in only five cases, these again being men who had only 
 been employed for a very short time. Most cases had 
 from 4 to 4i million per cmm., while three were below 
 4 million ; the lowest was 3,600,000. The leucocyte 
 -count varied from 4,000 to 21,000 per cmm., eight being 
 above 10,000, five below 7,000, the rest between these 
 figures. 
 
 The differential percentage leucocyte count showed 
 th3 same features as Chart I. 
 
 Thirteen of the 2il oases showed a decrease in the 
 number of pdlymorphonuclears, and a corresponding 
 increase in the lymphocytes. It will be observed that 
 in cases 18, 20, and 34, men who had only been working ^ 
 for a short time, there was already a considerable de- 
 •crease in the polymorphonuclears. In four cases (Nos. 
 17, 28, 32, and 33) there was a marked inoraase m the 
 number of eosinophils, but these cases do not appear 
 to bear any relation to those in which there was a 
 decrease in polymorphonuclears. The other cellular 
 ■elements were pressnt in normal, or nearly normal, pro- 
 portions. No myelocytes were seen in any case; only 
 in three were there any nucleated red corpuscles found, 
 and these in very scanty numbers. 
 
 The red corpuscles varied very much in size, from 
 "3 M to 12 M, the larger sizes being the most common. 
 In cases 18 and 32 some poikilocytes were found. In 
 17 of the 21 cases, basophil granulations were present 
 in the red corpuscles, three exceptions being men who 
 had been employed less than a week. In some cases 
 they were few in number, while in others, noticeably 
 in Nos. 33 and 34, the affected cells were very 
 numerous, as many as 20 being present in every field 
 •of the microscope. 
 
 It will be noticed that cases 16 and 18 were men who 
 had been working for only one week, and whose red 
 corpuscles were normal in number, yet showed a dis- 
 tinct basophil reaction, emphasising the fact that this 
 is the earliest detectable blood sign in nitro-benzol, as 
 in anilin poisoning. 
 
 Spectroscopic examination showed only the oxy- 
 hsemoglobin bands in 19 cases, while in two (Nos. 33 
 and 34) a faint band in the red showed the presence 
 of met-hsemoglobin. 
 
 Chart III. gives the results of expsrimental anilin 
 poisoning in a rabbit. The dose of anilin injected 
 was small, so as to reproduce as nearly as possible the 
 conditions to which the men working with this sub- 
 stance are subjected. The animal was given eight sub- 
 cutaneous injections in 12 days, the initial dose being 
 •1 cc. of anilin hydrochloride ; this was increased to 
 "2 cc. on the fifth day, and to '3 cc. on the sixth and 
 following days. On the last two days of the experiment 
 ths animal was placed in a chamber containing anilin 
 vapour for half an hour. 
 
 The observations made on the blood during the 
 course of the experiment corresponded closely with 
 those made on t.he blood of anilin dyers and nitro- 
 benzene workers. 
 
 There was a constant and progressive fall in the 
 specific igravity of the blood. For the first 10 days 
 the oxy-hsemoglobin bands were the only ones visible 
 spectroscopically. On the elsventh day the met-haemo- 
 §;lobini band was seen, and remained visible until the 
 animal was killed. The red corpuscles showed a con- 
 tinuous decrease in number, rapid at first, but slower 
 later on. The number of leucocytes increased for the 
 first six days from 7,000 to 19,000 per cmm., and after 
 that gradually fell. 
 
 The differential leucocyte percentage count showed 
 an almost continuous and progressive decrease in the 
 number of polymorphonuclaars, with a corresponding 
 increase in the number of lymphocytes. The large 
 mononuclears increased in numbers up to the sixth 
 day, and after that decreased. The other cells did 
 not differ from the normal in numbers. 
 
 On the eighth day of the experiment polymorpho- 
 nuclear myelocytes were found' to be present in the 
 blood, and continued in increasing numbers until the 
 animal was killed. 
 
 At no time were many basophil red corpuscles found, 
 but on the fourth day polychromasia was present, and 
 continued to increase, until on the last day of the 
 experiment there were as many cells showing this 
 change as there were normal red corpuscles. This 
 change in the rabbit's corpuscles corresponds to the 
 occurrence of basophil granulations in human cor- 
 puscles. Poikilocytes were also present during the last 
 six days of the animal's life. On the sixth day 
 nucleated red cells were seen, and continued in in- 
 creasing numbers until the last day of the experiment, 
 when they were present in very large numbers. 
 
 The results of this experiment, therefore, fully con- 
 firm the findings in the blood of anilin and nitro- 
 benzine workers, which may be summarised as follows : 
 
 (1) Decrease in the amount of hsemoglobin, as 
 
 shown by the decrease in specific gravity of 
 the blood, from 5 to 50 per cent. 
 
 (2) Decrease in the number of red corpuscles in 
 
 severe cases. 
 
 (3) Degeneration of the red oorpuiscks, as shown 
 
 by the occurrence of basophil granulations, 
 polychromasia, poikilocytosis, and variations 
 in size. 
 
 (4) Presence of nucleated red corpuscles in severe 
 
 (5) A moderate leucocytosis at a certain stage in 
 
 the course of the case. 
 ,'6) Decrease in the percentage of polymorpho- 
 nuclears, and a corresponding increase m tliat 
 of the lymphocytes. , , ■ • at, 
 
 (7) The occurrence of met-hsemoglobm in the 
 blood which, however, cannot be deteotei 
 spectroscopically until the amount present 
 is equal to one-tenth of the total volume of 
 blood. 
 The simultaneous occurrence of all or several of 
 these phenomena in the blood of a person engaged in 
 anilin dyeing or the manufacture of nitrobenzene and 
 its dTria-tives renders easy the detection of even slight 
 rases of poisoning by these substances. 
 
 There are other signs and symptoms which accom- 
 pany the blood changes. These are cyanosis, dilata- 
 
386 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 tion of the right side of the heart, increased frequency 
 of the heart's action, dyspnoea, drowsiness, headache. 
 
 The urinary signs do' not come within the scope of 
 this report, but may be of considerable value in 
 arriving at a, diagnosis of anilin and nitrobenzene 
 poisoning. They include the presence of free urobilin 
 in the less severe cases, and of hsemoglobinuria in the 
 more severe ones. In very acute cases of poisoning 
 by di-nitro-benzol that body can be detected in the 
 urine. 
 
 In case of acute poisoning the best treatment seems 
 to be inhalation of oxygen, which will keep the patient 
 alive even when the greater part of his blood is met- 
 hfflmoglobinised. Haldane found that mice could be 
 kept alive in oxygen at a pressure of two atmospheres 
 when 90 per cent, of their oxy-hsemoglobin had been 
 converted to met-hsemoglobin by the injection of 
 sodium nitrite. 
 
 In the less severe cases removal from contact with 
 the poison for a time restores the patient to health, 
 as the met-hsemoglobin and degenerated corpuscles are 
 quickly removed from the circulation and fresh red 
 corpuscles are developed in the bone marrow to take 
 the place of those that have been lost. 
 
 The main conclusion arrived at may be briefly 
 recapitulated as follows, omitting as far as possible 
 all technical terms : — 
 
 (1) Men engaged, in anilin black dyeing and the 
 manufacture of nitrobenzene compounds are 
 
 necessarily exposed more or less to the danger 
 of absorbing these bodies and so becoming 
 poisoned. 
 
 (2) The danger of poisoning is much greater in 
 
 the case of nitrobenzene manufacture than of 
 anilin dyeing, and in both trades is greater 
 in hot than in cold weather. 
 
 (3) These compounds principally affect the blood, 
 
 causing degeneration and destruction of the 
 red corpuscles. If the amount of poison ab- 
 sorbed is considerable they may cause death 
 by depriving the blood, of its power to take 
 in oxygen from the air. 
 
 (4) When absorbed in smaller amounts they give 
 
 rise to conditions which affect the health of 
 the workers prejudicially. 
 
 (5) By means of blood examination it is possible 
 
 to detect cases of poisoning by these bodies 
 in quite early stages. 
 
 (6) When removed from contact with the poison- 
 
 the blood quickly regains its natural con- 
 dition. 
 
 Waltee Malden, m.d. 
 From the Pathological Laboratories, 
 University of Cambridge. 
 March 8, 1907. 
 
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BEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 387 
 
 APPENDIX XXII. 
 
 Teakslation; by Dr. Legge, of Section on Glass Bottlemakers' Cataract by C. Hess, in Graefe-Saemisch's 
 Handbucb der Gesamten Augenheilkunde. 2nd Edition, Part II., (Jhap. IX., pp. 106-108, Leipzig, 1905. 
 
 That long exposure to fire can, afiaot the lens had 
 already been pointed out by PlenJc (1787) aaid Beeor 
 (1817). The latter was the first to refer to glass bottle- 
 makers' cataract. Wenzel, jun., had pointed out in 
 1808 in a treatise on cataa?act that " persoois often ex- 
 posed to intense fire" are more liable to the disease 
 than others. Later refereecesi to the frequency of 
 cataract among glassblowers are given by Arlt, 
 Hasner, Mackenzie, Panas, de Wecker, etc. Ee«Mnt 
 special references to the subject are those of Meyhofer 
 (1886) Rohlinger (1888), Landolt (1894), and Hirsoh- 
 berg (1896). 
 
 Meyhofer found 9.5 per cent, ol glassmakers under 
 40 years of age oataractoois, and 26-5 per cent, in those 
 over 40., Rohlinger found among 287 glassmakers 
 7.66 per. cent, affected (mostly with the ray form, or with 
 lumpy opacities) ; under 40 years of age 3-35 per cent, 
 were affected, and 19-23 per cent, in those over 40. Of 
 these glassmakers^, bottleblowers showed the highest 
 proportion — 31"25 per cent, in workers over 40 years, 
 and 7' 69 per cent, in those under 40. This proportion 
 is relatively very high, remembering that the number 
 of those suffering from cataract in the general popula- 
 tion among 10,000 persons over 50 years is 0'056 per 
 cent. (Kersohbaumer), and 0.124 percent, among 10,000 
 persons over 60 years (Magnus). Gerock (1903) finds 
 in his statistical investigationa as to occupation and 
 cataract, that no calling shows special inclination to 
 th-e disease except, perhaps, that in v/hich there is 
 exposure to dazzling light. The cataract of glass- 
 blowers, according to Rohlinger, is of specially slow 
 growth. What is its cause it is difficult to say. The 
 marked lose of water by perspiration lOan hardly come 
 into account. At any rate, we do not find opacity of 
 the lens with, the same frequency in other occupations 
 where perspiration is very great. The glassblowers 
 are often subjected at their work to a tempei-atuire of 
 50-55 C, but among iron workers, exposed to similar 
 temperatures, cataract is not specially frequent. 
 Robinson (1903) finds that among glassblowers 
 generally only the finisher becomes cataractous, asi his 
 eyes, in fashioning the neck of the bottle, are much ex- 
 posed to the glow — ^as much as six to /seven hours per 
 wfeek. It oommenoes, he finds, abouit the fiftieth year, 
 and usually at thlei posterior pole. 
 
 JLeber (1903) believes the origin^ of glassblowers' 
 cataract is attributable mainly to conoentration of the 
 aqueous humour. He says: "Thawugh the constant 
 heat th« evaporation from the corneal surface must be 
 considerably increased, and, with a further giteat loss 
 of water by sweating, concentration of aqueous humour 
 
 can be so increased ae thereby to cause opacity of the 
 lens. This view (receives support from Ewald's 
 observation— namely, that by evaporation after death 
 the aqueous humoTir can within one day become so 
 concentrated as to produce opacity of the lens. This 
 dulling by loss of water in the , living eye passies away 
 spontaneously ; constant repetition of the same damage 
 might produce permanent effects." 
 
 Against this viey are the following points : — ^TLe 
 form] of cataract which arises from inorease in the con- 
 centiiation of aqueous humour, as in Ewald's instance, 
 citedi by Leber, occunrs, if not exclusively, always at 
 first in tliB' region of the pupil, where the concentra- 
 tion of the aqueous humour can act on the lens. Fur- 
 ther, we know that " salt " cataract, induced by in- 
 crease of the concentration of the laqueous huftiour (for 
 example, by introduction of salt into the conjunctival 
 sac) — that is, in oases where there is relatively strong 
 increase of concentration of the aqueous humour, the 
 opacity of the lens " appears always to be limited to 
 that part of the anterior pole of the lens which borders 
 on the pupil" (Heubel). Even after injection of a 
 10' per cent, solution of sodium chloride into the 
 anterior chamber only the free-lying portion of the 
 lens in the region of the pupil is affected. Therefore, 
 it must be supposed that glassblowersi' caibaract, if the 
 above view is accurate, would be directly visible in the 
 pupillar I'egion. Of this, however, nothing is known. 
 On. the contrary, as is clear from the above references, 
 the cataract is often found at the posterior pole, or at 
 the posterior border, i.e., at places in the lena which 
 are 'affected in la far less degree by marked change in 
 concentration of the aqueous humour than the anterior 
 polar region of the lens lying free in the pupillar area. 
 Besides, we should not forget that both the cataract of 
 Ewald, as aJiso the other opacities caused by increasing 
 the conoentration, show a distinctly different character 
 from that of the glass-blowers' 'oataraot in question, 
 inasmuch as the former have never yet been observed 
 to be progressive or to have shown the clinical appear- 
 ances noted in glass-blowers' cataract. Whether tiie oft- 
 repeated effept of conoentration of aqueous humour can 
 act in quite a different way from what we know it does 
 in the few instances noted, and whether it is temporaiy, 
 as the latter is, or can effect lasting influence on the 
 transparency of the lens, we have no knowledge. Peters 
 (1904) considers it probable that glass-blowers' cataract 
 " is connected with the congestion produced in the act 
 of blowing," and inclines, therefore, to the view that it 
 is akin to the cataract form produced by ligature of the 
 vertebral veins. 
 
388 
 
 APPENDIX : 
 
 APPENDIX XXIII. 
 
 (Additional figures supplied by Mr. Greenwood, Secretary of the Glass Bottle Makers of Yorkshire Trade 
 
 Protection Society.) 
 
 I.— National Glass Bottle Makers' Societies, December 1906. 
 
 Table showing the Proportion of Men and Apprentices belonging to each Stage of the Trade, including those 
 Employed and Unemployed only — 
 
 Districts. 
 
 Bottle Makers 
 (Finishers). 
 
 Blowers. 
 
 Gatherers 
 and Blowers.* 
 
 Gatherers. 
 
 Totals. 
 
 Yorkshire 
 
 Lancashire 
 
 Sunderland 
 
 Seaham Harbour 
 
 Bristol - 
 
 Portobello 
 
 Glasgow 
 
 Alloa 
 
 Dublin 
 
 713 
 
 294 
 73 
 59 
 25 
 71 
 65 
 16 
 57 
 
 710 
 256 
 77 
 61 
 22 
 67 
 62 
 17 
 53 
 
 57 
 96 
 
 1 
 
 4 
 8 
 
 18 
 3 
 
 14 
 
 684 
 257 
 79 
 59 
 22 
 68 
 60 
 16 
 61 
 
 2,164 
 903 
 229 
 180 
 
 73 
 214 
 205 
 
 52 
 185 
 
 Totals 
 
 1,373 
 
 1,325 
 
 201 
 
 1,306 
 
 4,205 
 
 * "Gatherers and blowers" means that they fill both stages. They gather the molten glass and then blow it 
 into a bottle. A gatherer simply gathers and then hands it to the blower, each filling a separate stage. The maker 
 finishes the mouth or lip of the bottle. 
 
 Note. — This Table does not include the men who are following callings out of the trade who have withdrawn 
 from it through want of employment, etc., nor superannuated members. 
 
 II.— Glass Bottle Makers' Society, Yorkshire. 
 
 Table Showing the Proportion of Men and Apprentices belonging to each Stage of the Trade,' December 1906, 
 including those Employed and Unemployed only. 
 
 Branch. 
 
 Bottle Makers 
 (Finishers). 
 
 Blowers. 
 
 Gatherers and 
 Blowers.* 
 
 Gatherers. 
 
 Totals. 
 
 Castleford 
 
 103 
 
 103 
 
 6 
 
 97 
 
 309 
 
 Swinton 
 
 80 
 
 80 
 
 6 
 
 91 
 
 257 
 
 Hunslet 
 
 61 
 
 69 
 
 2 
 
 58 
 
 190 
 
 Thornhill Lees 
 
 70 
 
 71 
 
 9 
 
 75 
 
 225 
 
 Knottingley 
 
 64 
 
 62 
 
 3 
 
 74 
 
 203 
 
 Wakefield 
 
 32 
 
 32 
 
 - 
 
 32 
 
 96 
 
 Barnsley 
 
 111 
 
 105 
 
 14 
 
 94 
 
 324 
 
 Gonisbro' 
 
 39 
 
 41 
 
 4 
 
 40 
 
 124 
 
 Masbro' 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 - 
 
 4 
 
 13 
 
 Wombwell 
 
 15 
 
 16 
 
 _ 
 
 12 
 
 43 
 
 Blaydon 
 
 29 
 
 24 
 
 5 
 
 16 
 
 74 
 
 Newport 
 
 28 
 
 28 
 
 7 
 
 25 
 
 88 
 
 London • 
 
 10 
 
 10 
 
 1 
 
 8 
 
 29 
 
 Stairfoot 
 
 66 
 
 65 
 
 ~ 
 
 58 
 
 189 
 
 Totals 
 
 713 
 
 710 
 
 57 
 
 684 
 
 2,164 
 
 * " Gatherers and blowers " means that they fill both stages. They gather the molten glass and then blow it 
 into a bottle. A gatherer simply gathers and then hands it to the blower, each filling a separate stage. The maker- 
 finishes the mouth or lip of the bottle. 
 
 [Note. — This Table does not include the men who are following callings out of the trade who have withdrawn, 
 from it through want of employment, etc., nor superannuated members.] 
 
[ 389 ] 
 
 INDEX. 
 
[ 390 ] 
 
DEPAETMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 391 
 
 INDEX TO EVIDENCE. 
 
 African Boxwood Poisoning 
 
 Alkaloid present in the -wood, a nerve poison, Gibson 
 
 6500, 6502-3. 
 Botanical name, Gibson 6470-2. 
 Cardiac poisoning from alkaloid, Gibson 6472-7, 
 
 6502. 
 Cases, Steivart 492-3 ; Ishenuood 3424, 3440-51. 
 Caused by dust from wood, Isherwood 3431 ; Dixov 
 
 5701-6. 
 Diagnosis difficult, Stewart 510-4. 
 Distinguishability difficult, Ishenvood 3439. 
 Experiments on animals, Isherwood 3435 ; Bixon^ 
 
 5700, 5712-9 ; Gibson 6473-5. 
 Nerves paralysed, Dixon 5695-6, 5723. 
 Prevention by exhaust fans, difficult, Isherwood 
 
 3439-49, 3455. 
 Susceptibility differs, Stewart 5067 ; Isherwood 
 3443. 
 Increases, Ishenvood 3450, 3464. 
 Symptoms, Isherwood 3425, 3447-8, 3462-3 ; Dixon 
 
 5709, 5723-7. 
 Use of wood censured, Isherwood 3491. 
 Variety of boxwoods used in shuttle-making, 
 
 Gibson 6472. 
 Woods difficult to distinguish, Gibson 6488-98. 
 
 ALEXANDEE, GEORGE, bottle manufacturer at 
 Leeds, Blaydon-on-Tyne, and Southwick. Evi- 
 dence, 10163-94. 
 
 Bottle workers' cataract. 10163-94. 
 
 Alkali Acts, 1881, 1892,!and 1906 
 
 Carpenter, 3298-9. 
 
 Alkali Works 
 
 Defined by Act of Parliament, Carpenter 3296-9. 
 See also Chemical Works. 
 
 Amalgamated Beass Woekees, National Society of. 
 
 Evidence of : 
 
 Mr. Baker, 2766-83. 
 
 The President, Mr. McStocker, 2617-58. 
 Vice-President, John Eamsden, 2659-2765. 
 A Trustee, Harry Smith, 2748-65. 
 
 Amalgamated Society of Railway Seevants. 
 Evidence by A. J. Knight, 5960-6006. 
 
 Amblyopia. 
 
 Following di-nitro-benzol poisoning, Snell lQ5\-%. 
 
 Amido Compoundfi of Benzene 
 
 See Benzene. 
 
 Ammonium Chloride 
 
 See under Galvanising Trade. 
 
 ANDERSON, JAMES, M.B., CM., of Seaton Delavel. 
 Evidence on behalf of the Northumberland 
 Miners' Federation, 5806-74. 
 
 Beat hand, 5807-34. 
 
 Beat knee, 5834-43. 
 
 Illness due to foal air, 5848-52, 5857-60. 
 
 Miners' nystagmus, 5844-6, 5854-6, 5864-6. 
 
 Teno-synovitis, 5867-74. 
 
 Anilin 
 
 Composition of. Dear den 3557-9. 
 
 Djeing : description of process, Singer 224-31. 
 
 (1) Ageing, Singer 224. 
 
 (2) Chroming, Singer 271, 273. 
 
 (3) Cleansing and drymg, Singer 231, 277-87, 
 307-2'). 
 
 (4) Dipping, Singer 250-3. 
 
 (5) Mixin.a-, Singer 232-43. 
 
 Anilin Poisoning 
 
 Ageing process dangerous, Dearden 3507-12. 
 Aneemia prevalent, Dearden 3530-6. 
 Cases, White 6620-5. 
 
 Caused by inhalation of vapours, Dearden 3500. 
 Cleansing and drying, green dust prevalent, Hay- 
 hurst 398-401, 411. 
 
 419. 
 
 Anilin Poisoning— cont 
 
 Compensation urged, Ilayhurst 488-9. 
 
 Copper dust in process (3) injurious. Singer 277-87 
 
 307-20. 
 Dilatation of the heart rare, Dearden 3537-40. 
 Dipping, a harmless process. Singer 250-3. 
 Distinction between chrome and anilin, Singer 
 
 183-4. 
 Effect of stains if not washed off. Singer 267-70. 
 Eruptions caused by copper dust, Hayhurst 380-1. 
 
 By chromic acid, Dearden 3564-74. 
 Fatal cases unknown, Dearden 3507. 
 Gradual poisoning unknown, Friswell 3745-9, 
 
 6637. 
 Intemperance minimised by providing milk. 
 
 Dreyfus 6679. 
 Malingering easily detected, Dreyfus 6680-2. 
 Mixing process : 
 
 Regulations minimise danger, Dearden 3525-6. 
 Poisonous fumes unavoidable, Hayhurst 358-75. 
 Precautions by ventilation. Singer 236-43. 
 Requires no human agency. Singer 248, 258-9. 
 Oil more dangerous than the salt, Dearden 3561 ;. 
 
 Dreyfus 6632-6. 
 Precautions, Dreyfus 6638 ; 6643-4 ; 6664-79. 
 
 Neglected by workers, Dearden 3513-4. 
 Similar to di-nitro-benzol poisoning, Dearden 
 
 3518-9. 
 Statistics of illness. Singer 288-95. 
 Symptoms, Hayhm-st 421-66 ; Dearden 3502 ; 
 
 3518-20 ; Friswell 3745-6. 
 Time lost through illness, Dearden 3503-6 ; Dreyfus 
 
 6632. 
 Visit to, and report on four factories, Hayhiirst 
 3:)6. 
 
 Anilin Works, Clayton 
 
 Visit by the Committee, 8th February, 1907, pp - 
 523-6. 
 
 Ankylostomiasis 
 
 Cases of, Bell 4971-4 
 
 Ante-febrin Poisoning 
 
 Similar to nitro-benzoline poisoning, MacGregor 
 634-6. 
 
 Anthracosis 
 
 See Miners' Phthisis. 
 
 Anthrax 
 
 Maefidyeaii. 73-4, 80-2 ; Hill 904. 
 
 ARLIDGE, J. F., L.R.C.P., L.R.C.8., of Stoke-on- 
 Trent. Evidence, 6683-831. 
 Eczema in colour blowing, 6817-31. 
 Potters' asthma, 6684-816." 
 
 Arsenic Poisoning 
 
 Caused by discharging the ore, Wignall 3838-40; 
 
 Atkinson 10516. . 
 
 Caused by inhaling arseniuretted hydrogen, Hattey 
 
 4251-2. 
 Eczema caused, Beid 6517-8. 
 Symptoms, Carpenter 3232 ; Badey 4250. 
 
 Arsenious Acid Poisoning 
 
 Symptoms differ from those of arseniuretted hydro- 
 gen, Cayjxfiifj^r 3231, 3279. 
 
 Arseniuretted Hydrogen Poisoning 
 
 Fatal cases, (x/o/sfa- 4547-8. 
 Symptoms, Carpenter 3231, 3279. 
 
 Asbestos Dust 
 
 Causes fibroid phthisis, Jlurnn/ 4077-102. 
 
 ASHilORE, J. G., Secretary and ilanager of Oakeley 
 Slate Quarries, at Blaenau-Festmiog. Evidence, 
 9755-820. 
 Slate quarrying : fibroid phthisis, 9r.?o-S20. 
 
 .S D 2 
 
392 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 Asthma 
 
 Caused by : 
 
 Copper precipitate, Wifiiuill 3841. 
 
 Dust from grain cargoes, Hall 3633-5 ; Orbell 
 
 3,G-2. 
 Flux in tinplate trade, Lewia 3854-917. 
 See aho ^Miners' Asthma ; Potters' Asthma. 
 
 ATKINSON, A. J., Analytical Chemist in Cardiff. 
 Fellow of the Institute of Chemistry. Evidence> 
 10483-525. 
 
 Arsenical ores, illness from unloading of, 10516. 
 
 Calamine, 10509-15. 
 
 Calcined spathic ore, 10483-508. 
 
 Copper precipitate, 10522. 
 
 Lead ore, 10517-20. 
 
 Atlantic Fuel and Pacific Fuel Works. 
 Evidence of Dr. Evans, 7765-S35. 
 
 Attfield, Prof. 
 
 Report on the tinplate trade, cit. Lewis 3874-9. 
 
 BAKER, W., Member of the Executive of the National 
 Society of Amalgamated Brass Workers. Evidence, 
 2766-83. 
 
 Brassfounders' ague, 2773-4. 
 
 BAILEY, T. RIDLEY, M.D., Medical Officer of Health 
 for Bilston. Evidence, 4236-68. 
 
 Galvanising industry, 4237-61. 
 
 Ballard, Dr. 
 
 Inquiry into the cause of Middlesbrough pneumonia 
 epidemic, 1888, Hedley 2787, 2791, 2812 ; Dingle 
 2844. 
 
 Easic Slag Industry 
 
 Cargo Fleet Mill, improved process in, Hedley 2797. 
 Chronic bronchitis due to dust, Oliver 10691-2 ; not 
 
 due to dust, Hedley 2799. 
 Cough produced by dust, Hedley -2187, 2790-1 ; 
 
 Dingle 2841. 
 Diseases arising from, Hedley 2787-90. 
 Dust caused by rolling steel plates, Wyper 5314-5. 
 Causes chronic bronchitis, Oliver 10391-2 ; does 
 not cause it, Hedley 2799. 
 Description of, Hedley 2793 ; Dingle 2875-6. 
 Dust prevalent in the air of the town. Dingle 
 
 2907-8. 
 Dust, proportion of disease due to, Hedley 2830-1. 
 Fibroid phthisis : 
 
 Caused by dust in loading ore, Gavin 5193, 5236, 
 
 5254 ; Wyper 5293-308. 
 Deaths rare m Middlesbrough, Diiigle 2893. 
 Whether caused by slag dust, Dingle 2891-4 ; 
 
 Poole 4158. 
 Workers not specially liable. Dingle 2856. 
 Middlesbrough pneumonia a local disease, Dinqle 
 
 2845-51. 
 North-Eastern Steel Works, conditions in, Hedley 
 
 'iTt^l, 2796-7. 
 Pneumonia : 
 
 Cases among workers, Hedley 2823-4 ; Din<ile 
 
 2870-2. 
 Caused by dust, Gavin, 5176, 5206 ; Wyper 
 
 5310. 
 Epidemics, Hedley 2787, 2812 ; Dingle 2844-5, 
 
 28n-5, 2888-90. 
 Indistinguishable from the ordinary pneumonia, 
 
 Hedley 2792-802, 2811-12. 
 Mortality in Middlesbrough, Dingle 2901. 
 Prevalent in Middlesbrough, Hedley 2826 ; 
 Dingle 2843, 2874, 28k7. 
 Report by Dr. Wutzdorff on basic slag works in 
 
 Germany, Hedley 2821. 
 Respirators recommended, Hedley 2804-6. 
 Time lost through illness, Hedley 2790, 2794-5, 2822, 
 2824 ; Dingle 2838-9, 2842, 2857-68. 
 
 BEALE, W., of Beale and Co., Northampton, boot 
 manufacturers. Evidence, 10394-439. 
 
 Chrysoidine poisoning, 10413-36. 
 
 Phthisis among boot worker.s, 10398-9 , 10403 
 
 Beat Buttock 
 
 Cases few, Bm/le 5791 ; Anderson 5838. 
 
 Beat Elbow 
 
 Accidental or not. Smith 9216-8 ; Greene 9245-6. 
 
 Cases recognised by benefit societies, Bell 4981. 
 
 Cause, Bell 497t). 
 
 Compensation only for severe cases, Bell 501 9. 
 
 Definition, Bell 5012. 
 
 Fatal case of, Bell 4978, 
 
 Incapacitation, Bell 4980 ; Moody 8487-9. 
 
 Incidental to miners, Bell 4979. 
 
 Occupational, Fotheringhant 5531-2. 
 
 Prevention by pads, Bell 4917. 
 
 Scheduling. Small cases difficult to distinguish 
 
 from serious. Bell 5006-7. 
 Symptoms, Bell 4978 ; Moody 8490-1. 
 
 Beat Hand 
 
 Cases, number oi, Boyle 5761; Anderson 5807; 
 
 Murray 9092. 
 Caused by friction, Boyle 5737 : Xasniylh 9121. 
 
 By introduction of poison, Anderson 5829, 
 
 5840 ; Murray 9094. 
 By sports, Shufflebothain 2175 ; Fotheringham 
 5507 ; Moody 8501 ; Murray 9089. 
 Compensation advisable, Brown 5420 ; Moodg 
 8485 ; Harvey 9553. 
 With limitations. Bell 501 9 ; Mwray 
 
 9103-4 ; Ellis 9282. 
 Proof should be required as to actuality of, and 
 source of, Ellis 9282, 9288. 
 Curable, Boyle 5743-8, 5756, 5159-60; Anderson 
 
 5809 ; Leigh 10062. 
 Definition, Fotheringham 5523-30; MacPhail 
 
 5586-9. 
 Description, Shufflehotham, 2143-4 ; Bell 5002-5 ; 
 Broivn 5421-6 ; MacPhail 5573 ; Murray 
 9094-9. 
 Distinguishability easy, Moody 8495-6 ; Fother- 
 ingham 5508. 
 Dupuytren's contraction, Shufflehotham 2154 ; Bell 
 5000-2 ; Murray 9103; Greene 9263-5 ; Leigh 
 10063. 
 Incidental to trades other than mining, Shuffle- 
 hotham 2153-5 ; Fotheringham 5535-8 ; MacPhail 
 5574 ; Murray 9089 ; Nasmyth 9120-1 ; Leigh 
 10044. 
 Recurs after a rest, e.g., a strike, Boyle 5738-9. 
 Scheduling. Difficulty of distinguishing small from 
 
 serious cases. Bell 5006-7 ; Greene 9269. 
 Symptoms, Boyle 5751-5 ; Anderson 5808. 
 Time lost through illness, Fotheringham bbW ; Boyle 
 573.3-5, 5759 : Anderson 5819-27 ; Moody 8481-4 ; 
 Smith 9210 ; Smillie 9472. 
 
 Beat Knee 
 
 Cases, number of, Boyle 5761 ; Murray 9092 ; 
 
 Smith 9214. 
 Caused by kneeling ; Anderson 5835, 5842. 
 Compensation advisable, Broivn 5420 ; Moody 8486 ; 
 
 Harvey 9550. 
 Compenisation, for severe cases only. Bell 5019. 
 
 Proof should be required as to actuality of, and 
 origin of the disease, Ellis 9282, 9288. 
 Curable, Shutfiehotham 2151-2, 2158-9 ; Broivn 
 
 5429. 
 Definition, Bell 5012 ; Fotheringham 5541 ; 
 
 MacPhail 5586-9. 
 Description, Shufflehotham 2142 ; Bell 4997-9; 
 
 Brown 5427 ; Anderson 5835 ; MacPhail 5577, 
 
 5584-5 ; Greene 9241. 
 Diagnosis easy, Shufflehotham 2146. 
 Difficulty of distinguishing small cases from serious 
 
 ones. Bell 5006-7. 
 Malingering impossible, Bell 4996-7. 
 Prevention possible, Shufflehotham 2200 ; Bell 4986- 
 
 93; MacPhail 5578-82 ; Anderson 5836-7, 5842. 
 Similar to housemaid's knee, Shufflehotham 2142, 
 
 2192 ; Bell 4982 ; Murray 9092 ; Greene 9266-9 ; 
 
 Leigh 10045. 
 Time lost through illness, Shufflehotham 2141, 2148, 
 
 2197-9 ; Bell 4995 ; Anderson 5841 ; Nasmyth 
 
 9129. 
 
 BEATTY, JAMES, Medical Officer of Health at North- 
 ampton. Evidence, 8886-8942. 
 
 Tubercular phthisis among bootmakers, 8887-942. 
 
 BELL, ANDREW LEES, M.D., D.P.H., of Dunferm- 
 line. Evidence, 4932-5019. 
 
 Ankylostomiasis, 4971-4. 
 Beat hand, 4999-5011. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEA8E.S. 
 
 393 
 
 BELL, 
 
 ANDREW LEES, M D 
 line— coMif. 
 
 D.P.H., of Dunferm- 
 
 Beat knee, 4982-99, r>0l2 
 Miners' bronchitis, 4957-70 
 Miners' elbow, 4y76-8l. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 4938-56, 5013-4. 
 
 BELL WILLIAM, employee of Messrs. J. Grayson 
 Lowood and Co., Ltd., Sheffield. Evidence, 1063- 
 1081. 
 
 Ganister disease, 1074. 
 Senzene 
 
 Amido compounds of, cause poisoning, Friawell 
 3738 
 
 Beet, Paul, La Pression Barmnetrique, cit. Hill 860. 
 
 bichromate of Ammonia Poisoning 
 
 Caused by dust, Bauch 9002. 
 
 Eruptions and abscesses caused, Jlorrow 8945-6 
 
 8950, 8998. 
 Incapacitates from work, Morrow 8952 8958 8964-5 ■ 
 
 Bauch 8971-2. ' ' 
 
 Nose affected, Bauch 8999-9000 
 Prevention ditticult, Morroio 8963 : Bauch 
 
 8974-83. 
 Serious cases, Bauch 8968-9. 
 Susceptibility increases, Bauch 8955-6. 
 Symptoms, Morrow 8951. 
 
 lichromate of Potash 
 
 Poisoning from, iiee Chrome Ulceration. 
 Of soda. See Chrome Ulceration. 
 
 BiDiB, G., M.B., C.I.E., K.H.S., Surgeon-General of 
 Baltimore. 
 
 Article on satinwood, cit. Jones 9893. 
 
 -Bi-nitro-benzol 
 
 (S'ee Di-nitro-benzol Poisoning. 
 
 bisulphide of Carbon 
 
 See Carbon Bi-sulphide. 
 Slack Dyeing 
 
 See AnUin Dyeing. 
 
 Blast Furnace Works 
 
 See Steel and Iron Works. 
 
 bleaching Powder Manufacture 
 
 See Chlorine Poisoning. 
 
 Boilermakers and Ieon and Steel Shipbuilders' 
 Society. Evidence of secretary, D. C. Cum- 
 mings, 9931-10015. 
 
 Statistics of sick members, Cummings 9964. 
 
 ^Boilermakers, Diseases of 
 
 Alcohol, a cause of neurosis, Scott 4642-4. 
 
 Chills caught through working inside hot boilers, 
 Cummings 9942, 1 0004. 
 
 Compensation should be paid by last employer, 
 Cum-mings 9938. 
 
 Deafness, compensation unnecessary, Scott 4647 ; 
 Cummings 9975-7. 
 Does not incapacitate, Cwn)idngs 9949-51,9972. 
 Due to noise, Scott 4645-6 ; Mechan 5163-9 ; 
 Cummings 9948. 
 
 Death rate increasing, Cummings 9961. 
 
 Difficulty of determining whether due to employ- 
 ment, Cummings 9945-7, 9989-10003. 
 
 Eye protectors, Cummings 10014-5. 
 
 Reart trouble due to exhaustive work, Cummings 
 9933, 9989-10002. 
 
 Neurosis, compensation unnecessary, Scott 4643 ; 
 Smith 10981-6. 
 
 Eheumatism from extremes of temperature, Cum- 
 mings 9940-5, 10009-11. 
 
 Hivetters liable to heart trouble, Cummings 9934, 
 9998-10003. 
 
 Sight impaired through sparks, Cummings 9952-60, 
 9978-88. 
 
 BOOTH JABEZ, Organiser of the National Amalga- 
 mated Society of Male and Female Pottery 
 Workers. Evidence, 9364-9442. 
 Potters' asthma, 9367-409. 
 
 bootmakers' Diseases 
 
 Clickers and lasters liable to phthisis, Beatty 8ri91, 
 Loake 10400. 
 
 Bootmakers' Diseases— coren. 
 
 Decrease in deaths from phthisis, Bnile 10403 • 
 
 Clarke 10405. ' 
 
 Deaths from blood poisoning, Jieatfi/ 8887. 
 Expectoration increases phthisis, Beatty 8930-3 
 Improved conditions in Leicester, Clarke V)4or< 
 Industrial diseases or not, Beatti/ 8907, 8910-9- 
 
 JVorgate 10231-2, 10248. ' ' 
 
 ^Mortality statistics of tubercular ])hthisis, Beajfi, 
 
 8899-907, 8940-2. ' - .v 
 
 Phthisis, insanity, eye trouble, &c., prevalent, but 
 
 not due to employment, Xon/ate 10222-52 
 bciiedulmg of phthisis, detrimental to employees, 
 
 Beale 10404 ; Clarke 10405. 
 Tubercular phthisis prevalent, Boiitj/ ssiju, 8895-7 
 
 8908. ' ' 
 
 See also Chrysoidine Poisoning. 
 
 BORRON, C. B. F., Bottle Manufacturer at Newton-le- 
 Willows. Evidence, 10805-20. 
 
 Bottle makers' cataract. 
 
 Bottle Makers' Cataract 
 
 Afe at which it develops, Bohinson 3317, 3355-8 ■ 
 
 Snell 6222, 6235, 6242-8; Candlish 10776-9- 
 
 Hillmaii, 11015-17. 
 Cases in Germany and Russia, Snell 6241-7 : 2Ioore 
 
 10203. 
 Cases, number of, Bohinson 3305-10, 3333-4 • Jones 
 
 5880-3 ; O'Keefe 6024-6 ; Snell 6235-7, 6248 - 
 
 Greenwood 8806, 8818, 8826-8 ; Kilner 9860, 9865 ■ 
 
 Alexander 10167, 1018.5-90; Moore 10200; Oliver 
 
 10675; Candlish 10735-46; Brefflt 10785-96, 
 
 10804 ; Borron 10807-11, 11006, 11028-31. 
 Comparison of St. Helens' cases with Wigan and 
 
 Liverpool, Jones 5882, 5891. 
 Finishers most affected. Greenwood 8833-40 ; Moo^-e 
 
 10206. 
 Fireclay shades over furnace prevent glare, Kilufr 
 9872, 9877, 9886. 
 Do not prevent glare, Alexander 10173 ; Moore 
 10205. 
 Flatteners suffer more than finishers, Jones 5895. 
 Gradual development, Bohinson 3327 ; Hillman 
 
 11049-53. 
 Improvements. Glare of furnace kept continuous, 
 
 &c., Alej-(mder 10174 ; Candlish 10766. 
 Intemperance may induce it, Brejit 10804. 
 Malingering impossible, Hillman 11043. 
 Permanent when once incurred, Bohinson 3352. 
 Prevention by use of goggles, Bohinson 3329, 3351-4, 
 
 3360-7, 3370-1 ; Greenwood 8824-6, 8841-52 ; 
 
 Borron 10813-19. 
 Proportion affected round Leeds, Hillman 11036- 
 
 42. 
 Scheduling advisable, Oliver 10676. 
 
 Inadvisable, Candlish 10180 ; Hillman 11056- 
 68. 
 Screens provided but seldom used, Alexander 1019i ; 
 
 Moore 10204, 10213-4. 
 Statistics of employees, Alexander 10167. 
 Whether caused by heat and glare of furnace, 
 
 Bohinson 3305 ; Snell 6249-50 ; Greenwood 8795, 
 8835; Hillman 11008. 
 Whether distinguishable from ordinary cataract, 
 
 Robinson 3339-40, 3344, 3347, 3358 ; Snell 6267- 
 
 80 ; Hillman 11010. 
 ^'\'hether due to occupation or not, Siiell 6270-1, 
 6276-9 ; Alexander 10183 ; 2Ioore 10202 ; Cand- 
 lish 10747, 10780 ; Bm-ron 10820 ; Hillman 11007, 
 
 11011. 
 
 Bottle Makers' Diseases 
 
 Analysis by Dr. Hillman, showing various diseases 
 
 of glass bottle makers, blowers, &c., for which 
 
 work was given ug, 1898-1906, 8806. 
 Emphysema, bronchitis and heart trouble, O'Keefe 
 
 6010-23, 6114, 6122. 
 Table showing number of glass bottle hands in the 
 
 Yorkshire society incapacitated, 1891-7 ; Green- 
 
 wood 8826. 
 
 Bottle Making 
 
 Process, Bohinson 3312-4 ; O'Keefe 6019; Greentvood 
 8829 ; Candlish 10745, 10773 ; Breffit 10799- 
 803. 
 
 Boxwood Poisoning 
 
 See African Boxwood Poisoning 
 
394 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 BOYLE, H., President of the Northumberland Miners' 
 ^Mutual Association. Evidence, 5728-5804. 
 Beat buttock, 5791-8. 
 Beat hand, 5730-60. 
 Beat knee, .")761-71. 
 lUness due to foul air, 5782-88. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 5772-81. 
 
 Bradfield 
 
 Ganister disease decreasing in, Brooke, 8674-6. 
 
 BKADLEY, ISAAC, Coroner for Birmingham. Evi- 
 dence, 2595-616. 
 
 Brass casting and the trade generally, 2595-616. 
 
 Brass Casting 
 
 Cases of bronchitis and coughing, McStocker 
 2647-57 ; Banisden 2704 ; Bakm^ 2775. 
 
 Dust affects lungs, Eamsden 2716. 
 
 Prejudice against insuring casters, Ramsden 
 2731-47. 
 
 Shortens life, Davis 2499, 2544, 2553, 2586. 
 
 Unhealthiness of, Svmon 2376 ; Davis 2593 ; 
 McStocker 2621-2, 2633 ; Smith 2758-9. 
 
 Brass Finishini^ 
 
 Compensation limited to regular grinders, Mechan 
 
 5106-52 ; 5157. 
 Fibroid phthisis caused by dust, Murray 2271-2 ; 
 
 2fechan 5103. 
 Grinders and polishers liable to poisoning, Murray 
 
 2266; Bradley 2612. 
 Healthy trade, Davis 2500. 
 Unhealthiness of polishing, Bradley 2612 ; 
 
 McStocker 2626. 
 
 Brass Fitting' 
 
 Unhealthiness of, Smith 2755-65. 
 
 Brassfounders' Ague 
 
 Cases unknown, Evered 2459-61. 
 
 Cases of lead poisoning, Davis, 2527-8. 
 
 Caused by fumes, Murray 2346 ; Evered 2440-52 ; 
 
 Davis 2499, 2516 ; Ramsden 2669. 
 Caused by fumes of zinc, Simon 2359, 2379-80 ; 
 
 Davis 2524-9 ; McStocker 2635-7 ; Baker 2773. 
 Cause unknown, Evered 2447. 
 Differs from brass poisoning, Murray 2211. 
 Erroneous name, Simon 2357. 
 Healthier conditions would eliminate it, Simou 
 
 2408-17. 
 Improvements under the Factory Acts, Davia 
 
 2504-6. 
 Never fatal, Murray 2264 ; Bradley 2598. 
 Old casting shops condemned, Evered 2438-40, 2457. 
 Precautions, Evered 2428-38, 2450-2. 
 Bainsford and Lynes' respiratory apparatus, Evered 
 
 2451-2 ; Davis 2564-75. 
 Seriousness not sufBciently recognised by doctors, 
 
 Davis 2531. 
 Symptoms, Murray 2261-2 ; Simon 2361-3 ; Davis 
 
 2512 ; Ramsden 2670-2710 ; Baker 2773. 
 Workers get inured, Simon 2360-1 ; Davis 2589. 
 
 Brassfounders' Disease 
 
 See Brassfounders' Ague. 
 
 Brass Poisoning 
 
 Absorption of brass dust causes no special disease, 
 
 Simon 2353, 2373. 
 Alcohol predisposes, Murray 2249 ; Bradley 2605-6. 
 Caused by inhalation of brass dust containing 
 
 copper, Murray 2250-60. 
 Copper not dangerous, Simon 2392-3. 
 Diagnosis difficult, Murray 2318-24. 
 Distinguishable, Murray 2214. 
 Fatal case of Brannan, Bradley 2610-2. 
 
 Non-existent, Murray 2246. 
 Fibroid phthisis, due to dust. Median 5103-4, 
 5140-1 
 
 Whether caused, Murray 2271-2, 2295-2303 ; 
 Si77ion 2357, 2380-3 ; Bradley 2603 ; Mechan 
 5103. 
 Green line, Jfnrray 2216-20 ; Simon 2372. 
 Malingering, whether possible, Murray 2228-9 ; 
 
 Mechan 5156. 
 Precautions neglected by men, Murray 2344. 
 Symptoms, Murray 2215-27, 2280-93, 2313-19, 
 
 Bradley 2612. 
 
 Brassworkers' Ague 
 
 See Brassfounders' Ague. 
 Disease. See Brass Poisoning. 
 
 Brassworking 
 
 Processes, Davis 2478-9. 
 
 BREBNEE, C. S., M.D., Medical Officer of Health for 
 Widnes. Evidence, 3918-44. 
 Chemical industry, 3920-3944. 
 
 BREFFIT, W., Chairman of the Yorkshire Glass 
 Bottle Manufacturers' Association. Evidence,. 
 10782-804. 
 Bottle making, 10782-804. 
 
 Brick Making 
 
 Not a healthy occupation, Chalmers 4304. 
 
 Briquette Making 
 
 See lender Pitch Poisoning. 
 
 Bronchitis 
 
 Caused by chlorine fumes, Carpenter 3256-66. 
 Caused by dust from grain cargoes. Hall 3633-5, 
 
 3688-97 j 2£c Willie 10122, 10140. 
 Caused by sulphuric acid vapour, Carpenter 3206-08 ; 
 
 Glaister 4:377, 4384. 
 Whether caused hf brass casting, Bradley 2603 ; 
 
 McStocker 2647-57 • Ramsden 2704. 
 Whether caused by dust in potteries, Arlidge 671-5- 
 
 25 ; McAldoioie 6840-6 ; Johnson 7112, 7116,. 
 
 7119-23. 
 Whether caused by flax trade, Haldane 3189 ; Hall 
 
 7379, 7381-2. 
 
 Bronchitis, Mechanical 
 
 Aggravated by alcohol, Reynolds 6376, 6431-2,. 
 
 6429-30. 
 Cases, Reynolds 6299-301, 6314-7. 
 Caused by fumes of ammonia, of nitric, and of 
 
 hydrochloric acid, Reynolds 6422-3, 6445. 
 Chronic cases rare in adults, Reynolds 6341-9. 
 Compensation only to chronic, not acute, cases, 
 
 Reynolds 6417, 6419-22, 6424-8. 
 Difficulty of finding a correct term for scheduling- 
 
 disease, Reynolds 6322-35, 6402-8. 
 Incapacitation from, Reynolds 6383-6. 
 Leads to fibroid pneumonia, Reynolds 6356-60,. 
 
 6409. 
 Occurs in various trades, Reynolds 6299-301. 
 Possibility of proving it due to occupation, Reynolds 
 
 6312, 6365-9 ; Oliver 10689-700. 
 Scheduling inadvisable, Oliver 10700. 
 Susceptibility an important factor, Reynolds %4\0-\^ 
 Tuberculosis developed as a secondary condition, 
 
 Reynolds 6370-2. 
 Whether caused by dust, Hedley 2799 ; Reynolds 
 
 6298-6301. 
 Whether distinguishable from fibroid phthisis, 
 
 Wyper 5390-406. 
 Whether distinguishable from ordinary bronchitis, 
 
 Haldane Z183-96; Reynolds 6318-9 ; Oliver 10689- 
 
 700. 
 See also Miners' Bronchitis. 
 
 BROOK, W. F., F.R.C.S., of Swansea. Evidence, 7604- 
 67. 
 
 Pitch poisoning, 7607-67. 
 
 BROOKE, FREDERICK HOWARD. Evidence, 8§94- 
 8683. 
 Ganister disease, 8594-683. 
 
 BROWN, ROBERT, for Scottish Miners' Federation- 
 Evidence, 5414-43. 
 
 Beat hand, 5420-6, 
 
 knee, 5427-30, 5436-43. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 5431-5. 
 
 Beunnee Mond Company 
 
 Process, Haldane 2924, 2929, 2943. 
 Precautions against nickel carbonyl poisoning, Hal- 
 dane 2957. 
 
 BUCHAN, J. J., M.D., Medical Officer of Health for St. 
 Helens. Evidence, 3979-4019. 
 Chemical industry, diseases arising from, 3982-4011. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES, 
 
 Evidenc'ef 5610-?4.^"' *^" ^■' °^ ^'^^^ow University. Carbon Monoxide Poisoning 
 
 Chrome perforatioui 
 
 395 
 
 as, 5616-64. 
 Cursed Hand 
 
 See Beat Hand, 
 
 Bursitis of the Elbow 
 
 See Beat Elbow. 
 Bursitis of the Knee 
 
 See Beat Knee, Housemaid's Knee. 
 
 Burslem 
 
 Numerous deaths from respiratory diseases 
 Farkes 9429-30. 
 
 BURTON, WILLIAM, representing the Pottery Manu- 
 lacturers Association. Evidence, 6918-53. 
 
 Anemia a probable result. Bury 6187 ; Reynoldr. 
 
 at 
 
 Potters' asthma, 6918-53. 
 
 f , JUDSON S., M.D., 
 Evidence, 6132-218. 
 
 BURY, JUDSON S., M.D., in practice in Manchester. 
 
 Carbon bi-sulphide poisoning, 6191-4, 6202-14. 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 6134-90 6201 
 Naphtha poisoning, 6i95-9. ' 
 
 BUTLIN, H. T., r.R.C.S., D.C.L. Evidence, 1930-2005 
 Chimney-sweeps' cancer, 1 930-72, 1981-2005 
 Chimney-sweeps' phthisis, 1973-80. 
 
 Byssinosis 
 
 Reynolds 6326-8. 
 
 €aisson Disease 
 
 See Compressed Air Illness. 
 
 Calamine Cargoes 
 
 Eruptions of the mucous membrane cause by zinc 
 dust, Atkinson 10509-13. 
 
 Calcined Spathic Ore 
 
 Causes bleeding in the mouth and nose, Wignnll 
 
 3844 ; Atkinson 10502-3. 
 Composition of, Atkinson 10485. 
 Eruption caused by lime dust, Atkinson 10488-504 
 Scheduling. Difficulties vdth regard to insurance, 
 
 Atkinson 10506-8. 
 Time lost through illness. Atkinson 10495-6, 10505. 
 Worst cargoes come from Passages and Almeria, 
 
 Atkinson 10485. 10504. 
 
 ■CANDLISH, J. J., of Robt. Candlish and Son, Bottle 
 Manufacturers, Seaham Harbour, Sunderland. 
 Evidence, 10732-81. 
 
 Bottle making, 10732-81. 
 
 -Cannon Street Male and Adult Peovident Insti- 
 tution. Ramsden 2733. 
 
 Carbon Bi-sulphide Poisoning 
 
 Alcohol a supposed preventative. Smith 5915. 
 Cases, Dearden 3626 ; Bury 6201-3 ; Reynolds 
 
 6452 ; Stuart 885a 
 Caused by difficulty in ventilation, Smith 5929. 
 Discrimination from alcoholic intoxication very 
 
 difficult, Smith 5934-6. 
 Eyes affected, Snell 6264-5, 6287-91. 
 Generative organs affected, Smith 5916-8. 
 Gradual development, Dearden 3617 ; Smith 5912-3. 
 Impossibility of remaining in the trade. Smith 
 
 5930-4. 
 Manufacture less dangerous than use. Carpenter 
 
 3228-30. 
 Memory and judgment affected, Smith 5908-9, 
 
 5930, 5940. 
 Precautions, Smith 5949-52. 
 Prevention attempted by Frankenburg's patent 
 
 ,S'm*«A 5920-1, 5949. 
 Scheduling urged, Stuart 8878-9. 
 Susceptibility, general. Smith 5927-8. 
 Symptoms, Dearden 3603-6, 3620-4 ; Smith 5912 ; 
 
 Snell 6259, 6263, 6266 ; Reynolds 6455. 
 Symptoms, similar in oil- extracting works. Smith 
 
 5958-9. 
 Time lost through illness, Stuart 8874. 
 
 Carbonic Oxide Poisoning 
 
 See Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. 
 
 Leigh 10057 ; Oliver 10549- 
 
 ; J/ac- 
 Oliver 
 
 Srotf 
 Scott 
 
 of any occupation, MacPhnil 
 
 Cases, Bury 6135-44 
 58, 10570-4. 
 In submarines, Haldane 2962, 
 Causes, Haldane 2911. 
 Chronic or not ? &o« 4696-7 : Wyper 6283 
 
 Phail 5572 ; Bury 6178-9 ; Leir/fi 10065 ; 
 10545-55. 
 Classed as an accident, Haldane 2927. 
 Class of Workers affected, Haldane 2916. 
 Diagnosis of, Glaister 4510-2, 4518-9 4524-5 
 
 4703-6. 
 Gas and how produced, Glaister, 4520-3 4526 
 
 4694-5. ' 
 
 Gas stoves and fires, cases from, lUini 6190. 
 Gradual poisoning rare, Haldane' %%\Z, 2921-3- 
 
 Ohver 10545-55. ' 
 
 Mental condition impaired. Bury 6139, 6145-6 ; Leigh 
 
 10064. 
 Occars often with caisson disease, Hill 853-5, 877- 
 
 85, 898-903. 
 cheduling whether necessary, Haldane 2966 ; Moody 
 
 8515; Leigh 10069. 
 Symptoms, Glaister 4510-13, 4515, 4517 ; Fothering- 
 
 ham 5548 ; Bury 6161^5 : Murray 9075 ; Greene 
 
 9254-7. 
 
 Cardiac Dilatation 
 
 Common to men 
 
 5590-2. 
 Produced by accidents, Scott 4710-7. 
 
 CARGO FLEET illLL. Hedley 2797. 
 
 CARPENTER, RUSSELL FORBES, F.LC, Chief 
 Inspector of Alkali Works under Local Govern- 
 ment Board. Evidence, 3199-3301. 
 
 Alkali works, 3296-301. 
 
 Arsenious acid and arseniuretted hydrogen, 3231-2, 
 3279. 
 
 Carbon bi-sulphide poisoning, 3228-30, 3241, 3278. 
 
 Chemical works, poisoning in, 3238-40. 
 
 Chlorine fumes, poisoning from, 3210-11, 3252-67, 
 3273-7. 
 
 Di-nitrobenzol poisoning, 323.3-6, 3244, 3280. 
 
 Hydro-cyanic acid, 3295. 
 
 Nitrous fumes, 3209, 3249-51. 
 
 Sulphuretted hydrogen, 3212-27, 3268-72. 
 
 Sulphurous acid gas, 3202-8, 3289-94. 
 
 Cataract 
 
 See Bottle-makers' Cataract. 
 
 Cellulitis 
 
 See Beat Hand. 
 
 CHALMERS, A. KERR, M.D., D.P.H., Medical Officer 
 of Health for Glasgow, &c. Evidence, 4269-363. 
 
 Mortality statistics of Glasgow, 4270-363. 
 
 Chemical Works 
 
 Bronchitis, among workers, not distinct from ordi- 
 nary bronchitis, Reid 6532-9. 
 Incapacitation due to, Reid 6524-8. 
 Not definitely due to fumes, Glaister 4382-3 ; 
 Reid 6513-4. 
 Conditions of work, Eatock 3967-70. 
 Danger of mono-nitro and bi-nitro combinations, 
 
 Frisiuell 3744. 
 Healthy generally, Eatock 3970 ; Buchan 3983, 
 
 3985. 
 Intemperance, Glaister 4378-81, 4390 ; O'Keefe 
 
 6087, 6126. 
 Lime dust not injurious, Buchan 4008-11. 
 Manufacture of amido compounds of benzene, poison- 
 ing from, Friswell 3737-42. 
 Mortality statistics in St. Helens, Budian 3984. 
 No special trade disease, Buchan 3986-8 ; Brebner 
 
 3921-8 ; Reid 6507-8. 
 Phthisis not prevalent, Reid 6519. 
 Respiratory diseases prevalent, Eatock 3949-55. 
 Teeth, whether affected, Brebner 3928 ; Eatock 3959 ; 
 
 (?/(7/.s/er 4395, 4401-9. 
 See also Arsenious Acid, Arseniuretted Hydrogen, 
 Carbon Bi-sulphide, Chlorine, Chrome, Di-nitro- 
 benzol, Nitric Acid, Potassium Chlorate, Sul- 
 phuretted Hydrogen, Sulphuric Acid. 
 
396 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 Chimney-sweeps' Cancer 
 
 Alclioliol, a possible cause, BiMin 1938-9. 
 Almost unknown on the continent, Butliti 1948. 
 Caused by irritation from soot, Butlin 1938-9, 1947; 
 
 Brook 7615 ; Evdnx 7787. 
 Cause of decrease of mortality in recent years, 
 
 Bntlin 1952-61. 
 Compensation, only for external cancer, Butlin 
 1962-4. 
 Unnecessary if cleanliness is enforced, Butlin 
 1981-4. 
 Conditions of employment, Butlin 1955, 1986-91, 
 
 :2002-4. 
 Distinguishability from ordinary cancer, Butlin 
 
 1936-7. 
 Gradual development, Butlin 1942-6. 
 Incapacitation from work, Butlin 1945-6. 
 Mortality high among sweeps, Butlin 1932-5, 
 
 1992-2001. 
 Precautions taken on the continent, Butlin 
 
 1948-9. 
 Prevention by cleanliness, Butlin 1948-9, 1982, 
 1984. 
 By tight garments, Butlin 1948-5 ; Legge 
 8132. 
 Similar to pitch cancer, Butlin 1966 ; Brook 
 
 7614-23, 7633 ; Evans 7784-7 ; Jones 7978. 
 Whether due to employment, Butlin 1938-41. 
 
 Chimney-sweeps' Phthisis 
 
 Similar to general dust phthisis, Butlin 1951, 1974. 
 
 Chlorate of Potash Works 
 
 Aucemia prevalent, Reid 6521-3. 
 
 Chlorine Poisoning 
 
 Alcohol a supposed cure, Carpenter Zilb-'i. 
 Bronchitis caused by fumes, Carpenter 3210, 3256- 
 
 66 ; Glaister 4395-7. 
 Effect of fumes on the teeth, Glaister 4395, 4401-9, 
 
 4506. 
 H.O. Commission in 1893, Carjienter 3210. 
 Occurs at a definite time, Carpenter 3152-6 ; Eatoch 
 
 3963-4. 
 Precautions, Carpenter 3273. 
 Proportion of workers affected, Glaister 4399. 
 Really an accident, Carpenter 3152-6. 
 Scheduling unnecessary, Brehner 3933. 
 
 Chlor-nitro-benzene 
 
 Poisonous, Frisivell 3757. 
 
 Chrome Dyeing 
 
 Description of. Singer 180-223. 
 
 Chrome Ulceration 
 
 Cases, Singer 332 ; Mitchell 5667. 
 
 Cause, Buchanan 5627, 5632, 5664. 
 
 Compensation already given, Chrystal 7155-7. 
 
 Effect not permanent, Glaister 4412. 
 
 Effect on eye, Buchanan 5652-3 : Mitchell 5672, 
 
 .5677. 
 Eruption not serious, Dearden 3574-80 ; Chrystal 
 
 7138, 7165-8. 
 Hermann, on chrome works in Germanv, cit. 
 
 Glaister 4423-7. 
 Incapacitation, Singer 202 ; Glaister 4412, 4415-9 ; 
 Buchanan 5640-5, 5655-6 ; Mitchell 5670-1, 
 5676. 
 Tlirough perforation of the septum, Buchanan 
 5620-5, 5660-1. 
 Malingering possible, Glaister 4421. 
 Medical inspection advisable, Glaister 4420. 
 Occupational, Buchanan 5659. 
 Perforation of the nasal septum also prevalent, 
 bflaister 4423-8 ; Buchanan 5618-31 ; Mitchell 
 5672 ; Chrystal 7142-8. 
 Preventable, Glaister 4430. 
 Precautions neglected by workers, Glaister 4430. 
 Predisposed only, suffer. Singer 196-7. 
 Prevention, Singer 209-20, 329-30 ; Buchanan 
 
 5626 ; Chrystal 7160. 
 Recurrence of .symptoms, Hay hurst 381-3. 
 Scheduling unnecessary, Chrystal 7158. 
 Symptoms, Glaister 4410 ; Buchanan 5616, 5632-9 ; 
 Mitchell 5669. 
 
 Chrysoidine Poisoning 
 
 Cases, Korgate 10263-4 ; Clarke 10418, 10427. 
 Compensation advisable, Norgate 10261. 
 Composition of, Oivner 9675 ; Norgate 10254-5. 
 
 Chrysoidine Poisoning— co»?. 
 
 Distinguishability of symptoms should be ascer- 
 tained, Loake 10411-12. 
 
 Incapacitation from, Oivner 9681 ; Norgate 10262. 
 
 Oxalic or chromic acid mixed with it may cause the 
 rash, Norrfatt 10253 ; Loake 10407 ; Clarke 
 10419. 
 
 Scheduling. Danger of malingering, Loake 10435. 
 
 Ulcerations caused by splashes of liquid, Owner 
 ^9680, 9689. 
 
 Used for colouring soles of cheap boots. Owner 
 9674-6 ; Beale 10424. 
 
 CHRYSTAL, W. J., Managing Partner of Messrs. White's 
 Chemical Works, Glasgow. Evidence, 7135-74. 
 
 Chrome ulceration and perforation, 7135-74. 
 
 CLARKE, J. GIPSO]Sr,,of J. Gipson Clarke and Co., 
 Leicester, Boot Manufacturers. Evidence, 
 10394-439. 
 
 Chrysoidine poisoning, 10418-35. 
 Phthisis among bootworkers, 10405. 
 
 Clayton Aniline Works 
 
 Evidence of dejDuty-manager, S. Dreyfus 6629-82. 
 Visit by Committee, 8th February, 1907, pp. 523-6. 
 
 Coal Mines Regulation Act, Hinchliffe 8711. 
 
 Coal Oil 
 
 See Creosote Oil. 
 
 COLLIE, ROBERT JOHN,M.D., Medical Examiner to 
 the London County Council. Evidence, 10466-82. 
 
 Main drainage, illness of employees, 10466-82. 
 
 Collieries 
 
 See Mining. 
 
 Colliers' Asthma. 
 
 See Miners' Asthma. 
 
 Colliers' Cancer, not a special disease, Butlin 1965. 
 
 Compressed Air Illness 
 
 Caissons increasingly used in England, Hill 807 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning also occurs, Hill 853- 
 
 855, 877-885, 898-903. 
 Causes, Hill 818 ; Haldane 2976. 
 Classed as an accident, Haldane 3006-9 ; Mechan 
 
 5096. 
 Deaths infrequent in England because works not 
 
 deep. Hill 814. 
 Distinguishability difficult. Hill 825, 863 ; Haldane 
 
 2987-90. 
 Duration of effects. Hill 866-9 ; Mechan 5097 
 Ear troubles, Haldane 2991-3, 3000-19. 
 Employer should bear the burden of proof, Hill 904. 
 Fatal cases, Haldane 2985. 
 Malingering difficult. Hill 827-9, 839-42, 850-1 , 
 
 862-4. 
 Medical supervision advised, Haldane 3016-18. 
 Mortality statistics, Hill 810-5. 
 Naked divers immune, Hill 908-10. 
 Precautionary experiments. Hill 820-3. 
 Precautions re control of pressure. Smith 10975-9. 
 Preventable, Hill 819-20 ; Haldane 2977-8. 
 Sources of information on. Hill 859-61. 
 Susceptibility, young animals immune, HUl 824, 
 
 848. 
 Symptoms and description. Hill 817, 825-42, 849 ; 
 
 Haldane 2984, 2992 ; Mechan 5094. 
 
 " Conyn'essed Air Illness," by E. H. Snell, cit. Hill 861, 
 876. 
 
 Copper Poisoning 
 
 See Brass Poisoning. 
 
 Corundum 
 
 Haldane 3066. 
 
 COULTHARD, S., confirms evidence of Mr. Boyle, 
 5875-6. 
 
 Creosote Oil 
 
 Effects similar to pitch, Oliver 10707-13. 
 
 CUMMINGS, D. C, General Secretary of the Boiler- 
 makers' and Iron and Steel Shipbuilders' Society. 
 Evidence, 9931-10015. 
 
 Diseases of Boilermakers, 9931-10015. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 397 
 
 Curare Arrow Poison 
 
 Effects similar to African boxwood poisoning, Dixon 
 5698. 
 
 Cutlers and Grinders 
 
 Comparison of conditions of work, Scurfield 1866 ; 
 
 Ilolmshaiv 19857-70. 
 Comparison of death rates from respiratory diseases 
 
 in Sheffield, Scurfield 1865. 
 
 Cutlers 
 
 Death rate in Sheffield, Scurfield 1873. 
 Definition of a cutler, Scurfield 1872 ; Hall 1801. 
 Lungs described. Hall 1790-1801. 
 Respiratory diseases due to dust and bad ventila- 
 tion, Hall 1673-81, 1702 ; Scurfield 1867-70. 
 
 Cyanide of Sodium 
 
 Poisoning from, Stuart 8875-7, 8881-5. 
 
 DAVIES, E., M.R.C.S., Medical Officer of Health 
 for Swansea. Evidence, 8189-231. 
 
 Occupational statistics of Swansea, 8189-231. 
 
 DAVIES, J. D., M.B., CM., of Swansea. Evidence, 
 7668-764. 
 
 Pitch poisoning, 7677-764. 
 
 DAVIS, W. J., General Secretary of the National 
 Society of Amalgamated Brass Workers and 
 Metal Mechanics. Evidence, 2469-594. 
 
 Brass casting, 2477-2594. 
 Finishing, 2500. 
 Workers' ague, 2510-94. 
 
 DAWES, J. W., M.B., CM., Medical Officer of Health 
 for Longton. Evidence, 6979-7071. 
 
 Potters' asthma, 6983, 7071. 
 
 Deafness 
 
 Caused by pneumatic tools, Mechan 5162-9. 
 Prevalence among boiler makers, Scott 4645-7 ; 
 Mechan 5163-9. 
 
 DEAEDEN, W. F., M.R.CS., L.R.C.P., of Manchester. 
 Evidence, 3495-3627. 
 
 Anilin poisoning, 3497-580. 
 
 Carbon bi-sulphide poisoning, 3603-15, 3618-27. 
 
 Chrome ulceration, 3564-80. 
 
 Nitrous fumes, poisoning from, 3581-3601, 3617. 
 
 Deebyshiee Minees' Union. 
 
 Evidence by secretary, W. E. Harvey, 9545-9625. 
 Dermatitis 
 
 See Eczema, Potters' Eczema. 
 
 Dinas Rock 
 
 See Canister. 
 DINGLE, C v., M.D-, Medical Officer of Health for 
 Middlesbrough. Evidence, 2834-2909. 
 Basic slag industry, diseases from, 2834-909. 
 
 Di-nitro-henzol Poisoning 
 
 Absorption by the skin, MacGregor 662-5, 673-80 ; 
 Parke 757-9 ; White 6596-9. 
 
 Alcohol does not predispose, McCully 600 ; Mac- 
 Gregor 684-5. . 
 
 Anaemia produced, MacGregor 623 ; White 6554, 
 
 6567. 
 
 Blindness caused, Swe^n 649. 
 
 Cases, McCully 526-34, 552-3, 570-6 ; MacGregor 
 619-54 : Parke 713 ; Snell 1656 ; Eeynolds 6460- 
 4; White 6547, 6560-5, 6586-93; Dreyfus 
 6634-5. ,^ 
 
 Certainty of diagnosis, McCully 678-81 ; Mac- 
 Gregor 626-9, 633 ; Parke 719-39. 
 
 Change of employment advisable, McCully 562-8 ; 
 White 6554, 6565. 
 
 Chronic cases, White 6547-8, 6565. _ . 
 
 Compensation, difficulty of admmistermg, White 
 6558-63, 6572. 
 
 Conditions of work improved, Snell im'i ; W tiite 
 
 Duration short and not fatal, McCully 551-3 ; 
 
 Parke 784-6. 
 Fatal cases really accidents, Carpenter 32d3, 
 
 3280-1. 
 Incapacitation from work. White 6549-53. 
 Inhalation of vapour dangerous, Dreyfus 6637, 
 
 6646 
 419. ■ 
 
 Di-nitro-benzol Poisoning— core?. 
 
 Large proportion affected, McCully 559-61. 
 Malmgering, McCully 578-81 ; jiacQreqor 626-9, 
 
 633. 
 Medical inspection desirable, Parke 778-82. 
 Paralysis of the hand, a result. White G610-2. 
 Peripheral neuritis, a result, White 6579-81. 
 Precautions, MacGreqor 659-79 ; Parke 749-79, 
 
 787-90 ; Dreyfus 6643-4, 6664-79. 
 Recognisability of cause of symptoms, White 
 
 6544-6. 
 Remedies, McCully 547-56, 584-8 ; MacGregor 657- 
 
 8 ; Parke 740-8. 
 Results not seriously permanent, McCully 554-6 ; 
 
 MacGregor 630-2. 
 Similar symptoms to anilin poisoning, Dearden 
 
 3518-9, 3550-5. 
 Susceptibility differs. White 6579. 
 
 01 workmen from cotton factories, Parfe 770-4, 
 805. 
 Symptoms, McCully 536-46 ; MacGregor 623-9 ; 
 
 Parke 719-39, 741, 793-4 ; Snell 1659-63 ; White 
 
 6566-7, 6574-6. 
 Vat openers run most risk, Dreyfus 6648-58. 
 
 Divers 
 
 Liable to compressed air illness. Hill 908-10 ; Hal- 
 dane 2999. 
 
 DIXON, W. E., M.D., Professor at Cambridge and 
 King's College. Evidence 5692-727. 
 
 African boxwood poisoning, 5693-727. 
 
 Dockers' Union 
 
 See Dock Labourers' Union. 
 
 Dock Labourers' Diseases 
 
 Grain Cargoes 
 
 Bronchitis, asthma, and inflammations prevalent' 
 
 Hall 3633, 3650; Orbell 376^; Mc Willie 10122i 
 
 10140-52. 
 Caused by dust. Hall 3634-5, 3642, 3655-67, 
 
 3707-13, 3728 ; Orbell 3770-4 ; Owner 9701 ; 
 
 Mc Willie 10122, 10140-52. 
 Chronic invalids. Hall 3682-3 ; Owner 9702-4. 
 Employment under various firms, Orbell 3768-9 ; 
 
 Owner 9706. 
 How far distinguishable and due to employment. 
 
 Hall 3643-9 ; Otoiter 9712. 
 Incapacitation not permanent. Hall 3690 ; Mc Willie 
 
 10162. 
 Intemperance prevalent. Hall 3641, 3695, 36»9, 
 
 3703-4 ; Orbell 3799. 
 Itch causes incapacitation, Oivner 9714-8. 
 
 Prevalent, from barley cargoes. Owner 9713, 
 9731-2 ; Mc Willie 10130-9. 
 Machinery superseding grain workers, Hcdl 3675-7. 
 North-Eastern Railway Company employ most 
 
 men in Hull, Owner 9707-8. 
 Premature old age. Hall 3690, 3714-6; Orbell 
 
 3775-7. 
 Prevention of bronchitis, McWillie 10153-8. 
 Scheduling advisable, Hall 3690, 3714-6. 
 
 Would cause unemployment. Hall 3678-80. 
 Susceptibility general, Orbell 3765. 
 Symptoms, Orbell 3762, 3790 ; Oivner 9702. 
 Time lost through illness, Orbell 3763-7. 
 
 Hide Cargoes 
 
 Anthrax bites, Orbell 3801-4. 
 Blood poisoning, Orbell 3808-9. 
 Infected ships. Compensation for cleaners, Wignelt 
 3846-8. 
 
 Ore Cargoes 
 
 Arsenical or mundic ores, Atkinson 10516. 
 
 Compensation urged for poisoning, Wignall 
 3839-40. 
 Bleeding from the nose caused, Oimer 9713, 9719. 
 Calamine. Incapacitation due to irritation of dust, 
 
 Wignall 3844 ; Atkinson 10509-13. 
 Calcined spathic ore. Causes bleedmg, Wujnall 
 3844 ; Atkinson 10502-3. 
 Composition of, Atkinson 10485. 
 Eruptions caused by lime dust, xKii^iscw 10488- 
 
 504. 
 Incapacitation small, Atkinson 10495-6, 10505. 
 Scheduling, difficulties of, Atkinson 10506-8. ^ 
 Worst cargoes come from Passages and Almeria, 
 Atkinson, 10485, 10504. 
 
 3 E 
 
398 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 Dock Labourers' Diseases— ow!' 
 Ore Cargo 3S — com. 
 
 Copper precipitate. Causes asthma, Wignall 3841. 
 Causes irritation of the skin, irritation of the 
 
 mucous membrane, ifec, Atkinson 10522-5. 
 Gastric disorders, Jones 7982. 
 Lead ore, poisoning from, WignallZ&i^-S ; Atkinson 
 10517-20. 
 Compensation urged, Wir/nall 3837-8. 
 Prevention of respiratory troubles by muzzles, 
 Junes 7937-42. 
 Time lost through illness, Wignall 3823, 3844-5. 
 See also Pitch Poisoning. 
 
 Dock Laboueees' Union 
 
 Evidence by Dr. Hall on behalf of, 3628-3732. 
 
 H. Le-ivis, official of, 3849-917. 
 
 H. Orbell, official of, 3759-819. 
 
 J. Wignall, official of, 3820-48. 
 Compensation and sick pay not given, Orbell 3796. 
 
 Donkeys 
 
 Susceptibility to glanders, Macfadyean 3-15. 
 
 DKEYFUS, SYLVAIN, Deputy Manager of Clayton 
 Aniline Works, Manchester. Evidence, 6629-82. 
 
 Anilin poisoning, 6629-82. 
 Di-nitro-benzol poisoning, 6634-82. 
 
 "Duke" 
 
 See Mange. 
 
 DUNN, L. A., M.vS., F.RC.S., Guy's Hospital, Surgeon to 
 National Truss Society. Evidence, 7175-7233. 
 
 Hernia, 7177-202. 
 Housemaid's knee, 7203-33. 
 
 Dupuytren's Contraction 
 See Beat Hand. 
 
 DuHHAM Miners' Association 
 
 Evid3nce of J. Wilson and Alderman House on be- 
 half of, 10078-10119. 
 
 Dust Consumption 
 
 Better term than dust phthisis, Arlidge 6717-20. 
 Effect of different kinds, Hall 1673-95 ; Haldane 
 3050-64; J/ttir 4737-51 ; Reynolds mQ'i-i. 
 
 Dyeing 
 
 See Anilin, Chrome. 
 
 EATOCK, J. A., M.K.C.S., L.E.C.P., of Widnes. Evi- 
 dence, 3845-78. 
 
 Chemical industry, diseases arising from, 3948-78. 
 
 Earthenware 
 
 See under Potters' Asthma. 
 
 ^BBNEZEB SocEEiy, non-admittance to brass casters, 
 Ramsden 2731. 
 
 Jlczema 
 
 Caused by arsenical poisoning, Rsid 6517-8. 
 
 a turpentine substitute, Arlidge 6817 
 
 bleaching powder in laundries, Oliver 10577-83. 
 
 certain woods, Gibson 6496. 
 Jound amongst lithographers, Parkes 9412-8. 
 
 in matchboxmaking and French polishing, 
 Scott 4722. 
 
 in nickel plating trade. Hall 1819 ; Scott 4722, 
 4730-2. 
 See also Potters' Eczema. 
 
 Electricity 
 
 Causes burns and dermatitis, Oliver 10611. 
 
 Electric Welding 
 
 Causes temporary blindness, Robinson 3373-9 ; Snell 
 6252-7 ; Oliver 10599-608, Siemens 10969-74. 
 
 ELLIS, THOMAS EATCLIFFE, Secretary to the 
 Mining Association of Great Britain. Evidence, 
 S270-yO. 
 
 Beat hand and knee, 9282, 9288. 
 Employers' liability, 9274-88 
 ?iliners' nystagmus, 9276-81, 9288. 
 
 ELSWORTH, R. C, M.D., F.R.C.S., of Swansea. 
 Evidence, 8275-314. 
 
 Heart disease in steel works, 8281-314. 
 
 Emery Dust 
 
 A cause of phthisis, Haldane 30Gfi. 
 
 Emery Wheel Workers 
 
 Mechanical bronchitis caused, Reynolds 6314-7 ; by 
 dust, Reynolds 6393-4. 
 
 Emphysema 
 
 See Bottle-makers, Diseases of. 
 
 Employees' Fedeeation, Sheffield. Evidence by W. S. 
 Kerr, on behalf of, 10821-47. 
 
 Engineering Employees' Federation. Evidence by 
 A. Mechan, on behalf of, 5090-5172 
 Evidence of Chairman, Mr. Siemens, 10959-99. 
 Evidence of A. M. Smith, on behalf of, 10959-99. 
 
 Erysipelas 
 
 Caused by nieht soil work, Orbell 3812-19. 
 Not prevalent, Fitzmaurice 10447-50. 
 
 EVERED, Mr., of Messrs. Evered & Co., Ltd., Smeth- 
 wick. Evidence, 241 8-68. 
 Brass casting and polishing, 2418-68. 
 
 Explosives 
 
 See Chemical Works. 
 
 EVANS, E. B., L.R.C.P, M.R.C.S., Surgeon to the 
 Atlantic and Pacific Works. Evidence, 7765-835. 
 
 Pitch poisoning, 7771-829. 
 
 Farcy 
 
 Description of, Macfadyean 28-9 ; March 126-48. . 
 
 Festiniog Quaeeies Association 
 
 Evidence by J. G. Ashmore on behalf of, 9755-820. 
 
 Fibroid Phthisis 
 
 See Phthisis, Fibroid. 
 
 Fibrosis 
 
 See Phthisis, Fibroid. 
 
 Fifeshire 
 
 Mortality statistics of phthisis, Kasmyth 9111-5. 
 
 File-makers' Phthisis 
 
 Due to steel dust, Haldane 3061. 
 
 Fir Vale Union Hospitals 
 
 Statistics of occupations of phthisis patients, Hall 
 1754-9. 
 
 FITZMAURICE, Mr., C.M.G., Chief Engineer to the 
 London County Council. Evidence, 10440-65. 
 Main drainage, illness of employees, 10440-85. 
 
 Flax Trade 
 
 Bronchitis, Lindsay 7239, 7282, 7291-304, 7330, 
 7345 ; Hall 7379-86, 7392. 
 Among carders, Lindsay 7351. 
 Roughers and hacklers, Lindsay 7312-4, 7325, 
 7328, 7337-9 ; Hall 7402. 
 Distiuguishability difficult, Lindsay 7257 : \Hall 
 
 7379, 7381, 7406. 
 Period of incapacitation. Hall 7383-6, 7407-8. 
 Symptoms, Lindsay 7258 ; Hall 7409, 7413-6. 
 Conditions improving, Hall 7403-5. 
 Fibrosis, distiuguishability, Lindsay 7270 ; Hall 
 7417-9. 
 prevalent among roughers and hacklers, 
 _ Lindsay 7270-1 ; Hall 7387, 7390, 7402. 
 Gastric ulcer prevalent, Lindsay 7246-7, 7287-8, 
 
 7311. 
 Heart disease and rheumatism, Lindsay 7250-1, 
 
 7255, 7262-3. 
 Occupations, Lindsay 7262 ; Hall 7374. 
 Phthisis among carders, due to dust, Lindsay 
 7262-3, 7265-7, 7332, 7351 ; Hall 7397, 7410.' 
 diminishing with better ventilation, Lindsay 
 
 7273-6, 7305-322.4 
 prevalent, Lindsay 7240, 7330 ; Hall 7372, 
 
 7387, 7392. 
 spinners specially liable, Lindsay 7264, 7304, 
 
 7318-9, 7351 ; Hall 7387. 
 suspension recommended, Hall 7398. 
 Time lost through illness, Lindsay 7324, 7328 ; 
 Hall 7383 6. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 399 
 
 Flour 
 
 "'^'^'J!'^^'^^ *° *^^ l^^'igs, Haldane 3052-3 ; Reynolds 
 6350, 6354, 6395-40L 
 
 root-and-mouth Disease, Macfadyean 86-98. 
 (See aZso Glanders. 
 
 FOTHERINGHAM, JOHN, M.B., CM., L.F.P.S., of 
 Motherwell, Glasgow. Evidence, 5474-5548. 
 Beat hand, 5506-30, 5535-8. 
 Beat knee, 5533-41. 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 5544-8. 
 Iron and steel workers' phthisis, 5439-97. 
 Miners' phthisis, 5498-501. 
 
 Feamkewbueg and Sons' Factory, Salford. Visit 
 by the Committee, 8th February, 1907, p. 526. 
 
 Patent, prevention of carbon bisulphide poisoning 
 attempted. Smith 5920-1, 5949. 
 
 French Polishing 
 
 Eczema rare, Scott 4722-8. 
 
 FRISWELL, J. E., Past Vice-President of the Insti- 
 tute of Chemistry ; Past Member of the 
 Council of the Chemical Society ; Chairman of 
 the Society of Chemical Industry (London 
 Section). Evidence, 3733-58. 
 
 Anilin poisoning, 3743 ; 3745-50. 
 Chemical works, industrial diseases from, 
 3736-58. 
 
 Fuel Trade 
 
 Diseases of. 
 
 See Pitch Poisoninpr. 
 
 Galvanising Industry 
 
 Ammonium chloride decomposed into ammonia and 
 
 chlorine, Glaister 4488, 4494. 
 
 Fumes irritating to respiratory organs, Poole 
 
 4212-3 ; Bailey 4240 ; Glmster 4498 ; Stuart 
 
 8870. 
 
 Difficulty of getting rid of chlorine, Glaister 4492, 
 
 4503. 
 Experiments to test the fumes, necessary, Glaister 
 
 4495. 
 Health of workers, Glaister 4504-8. 
 Injury du.e to arsenic and lead, Bailey 4237. 
 Ventilation improved, Bailey 4256-8. 
 insufficient, Glaister 4491. 
 
 Ganister Disease 
 
 Action of the H.O. resulted in improvement, 
 
 McLaren 1151-4. 
 Average age at death about 40, Robertshaw 1301. 
 Cases rare, decreasing, or unknown, Steers 1114-5 ; 
 
 McLaren, 1135, 1151, 1154 ; Brooke 8628, 
 
 8674 ; Hinchliffe 8689, 8B97 ; Kite 8771 ; 
 
 Wilson 9629. 
 Caused by inhalation of dust, Lo7igbot}tam 1013 ; 
 
 Robertshaw 1358-60 ; Haldane 3058-9 ; Brooke 
 
 8602-4. 
 Change of occupation may cure, McLaren 1179-82, 
 
 1203 ; RobeHshaw 1339, 1401-9. 
 Compensation. Limited to future cases, Long- 
 
 botham 1020, 1026, 1041-62 ; Ruegg 8742-3. 
 Compensation. Only where disease is effective cause 
 of death, Riiegg 8744-7, 8761-7. 
 Partial benefits for older men, Ruegg 8752-4. 
 Description of process, Longbotham 981-95|; Brooke 
 
 8626-7. 
 Diagnosis difficult, McLaren 1168, 1206-17 ; 
 
 Robertshaw 1259, 1270, 1299, 1309-25; Brooke 
 
 8617 ; Kite 8774-7, 8789 ; Riiegg 8735. 
 Difficulty of determining whether caused by coal or 
 
 ganister dust, Brooke 8607, 8639 ; Kite SIIQ. _ 
 Disease inevitable after many years m the mme, 
 
 RoberUhaw 1354-5, 1383, 1444-51. 
 Eventuates in tuberculosis, McLaren 1195 ; Robert- 
 
 shaiv 1293-7. 
 Fatal cases. Bell 1074 ; Steers 1111 ; McLaren 
 
 1143, 1149, 1238-9 ; Robertshaw 1353, 1425-31 ; 
 
 Brooke 8616. ■, • i 
 
 Improvements by damp process, ventilation, <tec., 
 
 Longbotham 1009 ; McLaren 1156-8 ; Robertshaw 
 
 1349-51 ; Brooke 8626-7 ; Hinchliffe 8714-27 ; 
 
 Wilson 9634. 
 Incapacity may be malingered, Hinchliffe 8696- 
 
 Indifference of miners to precautions, Longbotham 
 
 1013-19. 
 419 
 
 Ganister Disease —coni. 
 
 Insurance not increased for ganister miners, Kite 
 
 S181. 
 Intemperance hastens death, JlcLaren 1238-9; 
 
 Robertshaw 1425-31. 
 Malingering possible, McLaren 1218-24. Robertshaw 
 
 1269, 1274-7 ; Hinchliffe 8696-8700 ; Ruegg 8735. 
 Medical examination advisable, Robertshaw 1370. 
 
 Eeferees should be numerous, Ruegg 8739. 
 Occupational disease, J/cZaren 1187-8. ' 
 Period spent in mine should be limited, Robei^tshaw 
 
 1405-12. 
 Physical signs absent in early stage, McLarm 
 
 1200-2 ; Robertshaw 1259-61, 1270, 1280, 1314- 
 
 25. > ' > 
 
 Poat-mortem removes all doubt, Robertshaw 1261 ; 
 Haldane 3039-41, 3047. 
 
 Prevention possible under improved conditions, 
 Brooke 8674-8 ; Hinchliffe 8711-6. 
 
 Proportion affected, Robertshaw 1456-9. 
 
 Recruits from coal mines already affected, Brooke 
 8606, 8646-73. 
 
 Scheduling unnecessary, Ruegg 8760. 
 
 Would cause interference with work, Long- 
 botham 1020, 1060-1. 
 
 Sputum, examination of, McLaren 1237 ; Robert- 
 shaw 1289-92, 1305, 1307, 1391 ; H,.l lane 3048-9. 
 
 Suspensions would net be num;roui, 2fcLaren 
 1225. 
 Would be numerous, Robertshaw 1270-3. 
 
 Symptoms, McLaren 1171-5, 1198-1203, 1235-7 ; 
 Robertshaw 1282-90, 1306-8, 1314-25. 
 
 Time lost through illness, Robertshaiv 1452-3. 
 
 Transvaal rock drill immigrants. Phthisis prevalent, 
 Haldane 3029, 3035, 3037, 3105-7, 3118-23. 
 
 Whether distinguishable from tubercular phthisis, 
 MacGregor 702-10; Longbotham%Qb-\005,Wia ; 
 McLaren 1146-8, 1168-75, 1214; Robertshaw 
 1299, 1314-36, 1377-8 ; Kite 8774-7. 
 
 See also Miners' Phthisis. 
 
 Ganister Grinding 
 
 Improvements lessen risk of phthisis, Longbotham 
 
 1009-10 ; Brooke 8626. 
 Phthisis due to dust, Longbotham 1000-1. 
 Process, Longbotham 982-95 ; Brooke 8627. 
 
 GAVIN, JAMES, Secretary to Amalgamated Society of 
 Steel and Iron Workers. Evidence, 5173-5257. 
 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 5179-90. 
 Pneumonia from basic slag dust, 5206-15, 5244. 
 Steel and iron trade. Fibrosis, 5191-205, 5216-43, 
 5254-7. 
 
 GIBSON, E. J. HARVEY, M.A., Professor of Botany 
 
 at the University of Liverpool. Evidence, 6467- 
 
 503. 
 African boxwood poisoning, 6468-.'i03. 
 Experiments on animals with African boxwood, 
 
 Isherwood 3435 ; Dixon 5700, 5712-9 ; Gibson 
 
 6473-5. 
 
 GLAISTEE, PEOFESSOE JOHN, M.D., Doctor of 
 Medicine of the University of Glasgow, <fec. 
 Evidence, 4364-548. 
 
 Ammonium chloride fumes, 4486-99. 
 Arseniuretted hydrogen poisoning, 4546-8. 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 4509-28. 
 Chlorine fumes, effect of, 4395-409. 
 Chrome perforations, 4410-32, 4541-5. 
 Galvanising, 4486-508. 
 Naphtha, 4530-40. 
 Potters' phthisis, 4433-85. 
 Sulphurous acid fumes, 4373-94. 
 
 Glanders 
 
 Carelessness of employees, Macfadyean 26. 
 
 Cases rare in man, Macfadyean 12-4, 20-3, 46-50 ; 
 March 106-10, 119-22 ; Oliver 10587-98. 
 
 Contracted in the course of employment, Macfad- 
 yean 26-33. 
 
 Detection difficult, except by bacteriological methods 
 Macfadyean 17-9, 69-74. 
 
 Difficulty and expense of stamping it out, Macfad- 
 yean lb. 
 
 Employer not necessarily blameworthy, Macfadyean 
 76-9. 
 
 Equine disease, Macfadyean 3-16. 
 
 3 E 2 
 
400 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 Glanders— '""'• 
 
 Grooms and ostlers chiefly affected, Macfadyean 
 
 24, 
 Human cases are equine in origin, Macfadyean 
 
 11-15. 
 Knackers unaffected, }facfitrlyi-an 25-6. 
 Latent period in man, Macfadyean 83-5. 
 Not highly infectious, Macfadyean 95. 
 Other diseases contracted from animals, Macfadyean 
 
 86-100. 
 Prevention possible, March 148. 
 Scheduling as a human disease, necessary, March 
 116; Oliver 10.595-8. 
 Unnecessary, Macfadyean 64-7. 
 Stablemen chiefly affected, March 160-5. 
 
 Glasgow 
 
 Chief trades, Chalmers 4318-9. 
 
 Death-rates in certain industries, Chalmerx 4270, 
 
 4277-80. 
 Extent of metallurgical industries, Chalmers 4270. 
 Fibroid phthisis infrequent in, Muir 4801, 4804. 
 Industrial conditions good, Chalmers 4345. 
 
 Glass Bottle jSIakees of Yoekshire United Trade 
 Protection Society. Evidence of secretary, 
 A. Greenwood, 8791-852. 
 
 Table showing glass bottle hands in the society 
 incapacitated during 1891-7, Greenwood 8826. 
 
 Glass Bottle Manufacturers'^ Association of 
 LAifCASHiEE. Evidence of Secretary, C. B. F. Borron, 
 10805-20. 
 
 Glass Bottle Manufacturers' Association of York- 
 shire. Evidence of the Chairman, W. Brefiit, 
 10782-804. 
 
 Glass Makers' Societies op the United Kingdom. 
 Evidence of Secretary, A. Greenwood, 8791-8852. 
 
 " Glenny Blink " 
 
 See Miners' Nystagmus. 
 
 Graham, H. E., M.A., M.B., of Canterbury. 
 
 Article on satinwood in the " British Medical 
 Journal" of 15th April, 1905, cit. Jones, 9893. 
 
 Grain Porters 
 
 See under Dock Labourers' Diseases. 
 
 GREENE, ARNOLD J., M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., of Wigan 
 Infirmary, &c. Evidence on behalf of Mining 
 Association of Great Britain, 9225-69. 
 
 Beat knee, hand and elbow, 9241-6, 9263-9. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 9234-40, 9251. 
 
 GREENWOOD, ALFRED, Secretary of Glass Bottle 
 , Makers of Yorkshire United Trade Protection 
 Society, &c. Evidence, 8791-8852. 
 
 Bottle-makers' cataract, 8791-852. 
 
 GREGOR, Mr., Managing Director of the Graigola Fuel 
 Works, Swansea. Evidence, 8232-74. 
 
 Pitch poisoning, 8232-74. 
 
 Grinders' Phthisis 
 
 Average age at death. Hall 1715-21 ; Holmshaw 
 
 10936. . 
 
 Caused by chest fixture, G/aister 4459-70. -^ 
 Gaused by dust, MnrGreijor 702-10 ; Hall 1673-95 ; 
 
 Scurfield 1866-72. 
 'Change of occupation may cure, Poole 4189-91, 4199, 
 
 4207 ; Glaister 44" 1-4, 4485. 
 ■Comparison of conditions of work of Sheifield 
 
 grinders and cutlers, Scurfield 1866. 
 ■Comparison of death rates of grinders and cutlers in 
 
 Sheffield, Scurfield 1865. 
 Compensation. Might result in unemployment, 
 
 Poole 4196-207 ; Oliver 10653-61 ; Holmshaw 
 
 10897, 10905 ; Siemens 10968. 
 Compensation strictly limited to habitual grinders, 
 
 Mechan 5143-5 ; Siemens 10965 ; Smith 10979-81. 
 Death rate among grinders in Sheffield, Scurfield 
 
 1858-62. 
 Definition of steel grinding, Mechan 5138-9. 
 Diagnosis difficult. Hall 1780-2. 1809 ; Poole 4133, 
 
 4153, 4166. 
 Dry grinders suffer most, Hall 1700, 1710-1 2, 1723-6 ; 
 
 Scurfield 1913-29 ; Haldane 3072 ; Poole 4121 ; 
 
 Kerr 10829 ; Holmshaw 10925. 
 Effects permanent, Pnole 4189. 
 
 Grinders' Phthisis— cow*. 
 
 Improvements necessary in ventilation, &c., Scur' 
 
 field 1896, 1900-4 ; Holmshaiv 10903, 10909 
 Incapacitation after 40, Hall 17 16-22 ; Poole 4148-9.. 
 Industrial diseases, Scurfield 1871 ; Holmshaw 
 
 10851 
 Intemperance prevalent among grinders, Poole 
 
 4172 ; Holmshaw 10937 
 Lungs typical, Hall 1701, 1710-11, 1790-1802, 
 
 1812-13. 
 Occasional grinders, definition of, Smith 10987-96 
 Should not receive compensation, Mechan 5143- 
 ^ ; Siemens 10965 ; Smith 10979-81. 1087-96. 
 Physical signs absent, Hall 1783 ; Kerr 10831. 
 Precaution by suitable apparatus, Poole 4145-6, 
 
 4206. 
 Predigposes to tuberculosis, Scurfield 1836 
 Prevalency of, Holmshaw 10909, 10931 ; Smith 
 
 10997-9. 
 Vvocess, Scurfield 1897-8 ; Hartill 7564-9. 
 Proportion of men affected, Scurfield 1881. 
 Relations between employer and employee, Holm- 
 shaw 10876-94, 10918. 
 Scheduling, prevention rather than compensation, 
 
 Holmshaw 10903, 10908-9, 10953. 
 Symptoms, Hall 1774-5 ; Poole 4133, 4153, 4166 ; 
 
 Glaister 4469 ; Kerr 10831-9. 
 Tenement system should be abolished, Holmshaw 
 
 10941. 
 Time of development, gradual. Hall VII A ; Pool 
 
 4130-41 ; Kerr 10830 ; Holmshaiv 10939. 
 
 Grooms 
 
 Susceptibility to glanders, Macfxdyean 24 
 
 GULLAND, G. LOVELL, M.D., F.R.C.P.E., 
 Physician to the Royal Victoria Hospital 
 Edinburgh, &c. Evidence, 4811-4931. 
 
 Stonemasons' phthisis, 4813-931. 
 
 HALDANE, J. S., M.D., F.R.S., Member of the 
 Departmental Committee on Ventilation of 
 Railways. Evidence, 2910-3197. 
 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 2910-73. 
 
 Compressed air illness, 2974-3018. 
 
 Different kinds of dust, 3050-66. 
 
 Grinding, 3067-74. 
 
 Industrial bronchitis, 3187-95. 
 
 Miners' phthisis, 3020-186. 
 
 Nickel carbonyl poisoning, 2923-4, 2929-44, 2950-8, 
 
 2968 2972. 
 Potters' phthisis, 3022, 3044-5. 
 
 HALL, ARTHUR, M.A., M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician to 
 the Sheffield Royal Hospital, <fec. JKvidence, 
 1664-825. 
 
 Cutlers' respiratory diseases, 1702, 1790-1801. 
 Dust, different kinds of, 1666-95. 
 Eczema in silver-plating trades, 1819-25. 
 Grinders' phthisis, 1700-1818. 
 
 HALL, GEORGE ROME, M.D. Evidence for the 
 Dock Labourers' Union, 3628-3732. 
 
 Dock labourers' diseases, 3632-732. 
 
 HALL, ROBERT, L.R.C.P., L.R.C.S., Medical Officer 
 of Belfast Infirmary. Evidence, 7366-423. 
 
 Flax trade : bronchitis and phthisis, 7370-423. 
 
 HANCOCK, WILLIAM, Secretary of the Operative 
 Masons' Society in London. Evidence, 10272- 
 393. 
 
 Stone-masons' phthisis. 
 
 HARTILL, J T., L.R.CP., M.R.O.S., of Willenhall, 
 Wolverhampton. Evidence, 7547-603. 
 
 Colliers' asthma, 7558-61, 7573. 
 phthisis, 7572-602 
 
 HARVEY, W. E., M.P., Secretary of Derbyshire Miners' 
 Union. Evidence, 9545-9625. 
 Beat hand and knee, 9587-8. 
 Miners' bronchitis, 9602-25. 
 nystagmus, 9555-86. 
 sprained wrist, 9589-9601. 
 
 HAYHURST, JOSEPH, Secretary of the Operative 
 Dyers' Society. Evidence, 349-489. 
 Anilin dyeing and poisoning, 350-489. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 401 
 
 Beart 
 
 Rupture of the valve, accidental, Oliver 10628-30. 
 
 Hearts OF Oak. Non-admittance to brass-casters, 
 ■tiamsden 2731. 
 
 '^■^^^A?-X'i/*^^''^' ^-D-' Doctor and Past Mayor of 
 Middlesbrough. Evidence, 2784-2833. 
 
 Basic slag industry, diseases arising from, 2786- 
 833. 
 
 Hernia 
 
 Cause of, Langton 4021-30. 
 Description, Langton 4029 ; Dunn 7187-95. 
 Incapacitation rare, Lamjton 4035-8. 
 Malingering probable, Langton 4043. 
 Not an industrial disease, Langton 4034, 4044-5 ; 
 Dunn 7184. 
 
 HILL, LEONAED, M.B., F.R.S., Evidence, 806-910. 
 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 853-7, 877-85, 898- 
 
 903. 
 Compressed air illness, 806-910. 
 
 HILLMAN, G. B., L.S.A., in practice at Castleford, 
 
 Yorkshire. Evidence, 11000-69. 
 Bottle makers' cataract, 11000-69. 
 Analysis showing the various diseases of glass bottle 
 
 makers, blowers, and gatherers for which work 
 
 was given up, for 1898-1906, 8806. 
 
 EIISrCHLIFFE, HERBERT, Proprietor of Canister 
 Mines. Evidence, 8684-732. 
 
 Ganister disease, 8684-732. 
 
 HOLMSHAW, Mr., Secretary of the Sheffield United 
 Cutlery Council. Evidence, 10848-958. 
 
 Grinders' phthisis, 10848-958. 
 
 Horn Dust 
 
 Not injurious. Hall 1691-3. 
 
 Horses 
 
 Susceptibility to glanders, Macfadyean 3-16. 
 
 HOUSE, ALDERMAN. Evidence on behalf of the 
 
 Durham Miners' Association, 10078-119. 
 Sprained wrist among miners, 10112-17. 
 
 Housemaid's Euee 
 
 Cases known in miners, Andenon 5861-2. 
 
 Caused by kneeling, Langton 4053, 4064-5 ; Dunn 
 
 7203-4. 
 Compensation necessary, Langton 4064. 
 Cure usually permanent, Langton 4070-1. 
 Diagnosis easy, Langton 4072 ; Dunn, 7205. 
 Prevalent complaint, Langton 4061-2. 
 Preventable by mats, Dunn 7213-4. 
 Result of employment, Langton 4053, 4064 : Dunn 
 
 7212. 
 Severer than beat knee, Anderson 5839, 5863. 
 Time lost through illness, Langton 4051-2, 4054-5 ; 
 
 Dunn 7209-10. 
 
 Hydroehloric Acid Poisoning 
 
 Really an accident, Buchan 39S5-6. 
 
 Hydrocyanic Acid 
 
 Contributory to death. Carpenter 3295. 
 
 Incorpoeated Federated Association of Boot and 
 Shoe Manufacturers of Great Britain and 
 Ireland. Evidence of Vice-President, Mr. J. Loake, 
 10394-439. 
 
 India-rubber Manufacturing Company, Clayton. 
 Visit by the Committee, 8th February, 1907, page 
 526. 
 
 India-rubber Works 
 
 Ansemia prevalent, Gulland 4924-5. 
 
 Naphtha fumes harmless, ^wry 6197, 6199 ; Reynolds. 
 
 6453 
 Risk in using carbon bi-sulphide. Carpenter 3228, 
 
 3241 ; Dearden 3602 ; Smith 5910. 
 Visit by Committee to Messrs. Frankenburg and 
 
 Sons' Factory at Salford, page 526. ' 
 
 Infected Ships 
 
 Danger in cleaning, Wignall 3846-8. 
 
 Inflammation of the Palmar Facia 
 
 See Beat Hand. 
 
 Iron 
 
 See Steel and Iron Works. 
 Ironstone Mines 
 
 "Gassing" from sulphuretted hydrogen, Leigh 
 
 Sprained wrists prevalent, Leigh 10026, 10035. 
 
 ISHERWOOD, D., Secretary of the Shuttle ■ Makers' 
 Society. Evidence, 3422-94. 
 
 African boxwood poisoning, 3423-94. 
 Shuttle making, 3428, 3458, 3477-85. 
 
 Itch 
 
 See under Dock Labourers Diseases : Grain Cargoes. 
 
 JOHNSON, G. PETGEAVE, M.D.. D.P.H., Stoke-on- 
 Trent. Evidence, 7072-7134. 
 Potters' asthma, 7073-134. 
 
 JONES, J. ARNALLT, M.D., of Aberavon. Evidenae, 
 7919-85. 
 
 Cargo unloaders, 7924-42, 7962-77, 7982-4. 
 
 Pitch poisoning, 7978-81, 7985. 
 
 Tinplate industry. Catarrh prevalent, 7943-62. 
 
 JONES, G. E., L R.C.P., L.E., C.S., of Cross, Morriston. 
 Evidence, 7986-8044. 
 
 Tinplate industry: asthma, etc., 7991-8044. 
 
 JONES, HUGH E., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S., Ophthalmic 
 Surgeon, St. Helens Hospital. Evidence, 5877-904. 
 Bottle-makers' cataract, 5879 904. 
 
 JONES, H. E,, M.B., CM., of Glasgow. EvidensTe, 
 9887-930. 
 
 Satinwood poisoning, 9887-930. 
 
 JONES, J., M.D., Medical Officer to employees of the 
 Brunner Mond Company, Clydach. Evidence, 
 3380-421. 
 
 Nickel carbonyl poisoning, 3382-421. 
 
 JONES, RICHARD, M.D., at Blaenau Festiniog. Evi- 
 dence, 7424-546. 
 
 Slate quarrying : pneumonia prevalent, 7424- 
 546. 
 
 KELLOW, M.. General Manager and Secretary of the 
 Park and Croesor Slate Quarry in North Wales, 
 <tc. Evidence, S821-56. 
 
 Slate quarrying, 9821-56. 
 
 Keratitis 
 
 See Pitch Poisoning : inflammation of the eye. 
 
 KERR, W. S., M.B., CM., F.R.C.S., of Sheffield. Evi- 
 dence on behalf of the Employers' Federation, 
 10821-47. 
 
 Grinders' fibrosis, 10821-45. 
 
 KILNEE, CALEB, bottle manufacturer at Thornhill, 
 and Conisburgh. Evidence, 9857-86. 
 
 Bottle making, 9857-86. 
 
 KITE, EDWIN, W. D., M.B., M.R.CS., L.S.A, Medical 
 Officer, Wortley, near Sheffield. Evidence, 8768- 
 90. 
 Ganister disease, 8771-90. 
 
 KNIGHT, ALEXANDER J., for Amalgamated Society 
 of Railway Servants. Evidence, 5960-6006. 
 
 Dining car attendants, diseases of, 5960-6006. 
 
 Enysna Boxwood. 
 
 See African Boxwood. 
 
 Lanarkshire Miners' County Union. Evidence of 
 President, Mr. Smillie, 9443-544. 
 
 Lancashire Glass Bottle Manufacturers' Associa- 
 tion. Evidence of Secretary, C B. F. Borron, 
 10805-20. 
 
 LANGTON, JOHN, F.E.C.S., of the City of London 
 Truss Society. Evidence, 4020-75. 
 
 Hernia, 4020-45. 
 
 Housemaids' knee, 4046-55, 4061-75. 
 
402 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 LAXGTOX, JOHX, F.R.O S.~conf. 
 
 Miners' bursa, 4048, 4056. 
 Weavers' bursa, 4048, 4058. 
 
 "La Pression Barometrique" by Paul Bert it. Hill 860. 
 
 Laundry Work 
 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, Glaister A^bQ^. 
 Eczema from use of bleaching powders, Oliver 
 10577-83. 
 
 Lead Foisonmg 
 
 Amongst dock labourers, Wignall 3836-8, 3844 
 
 Atkinson 10517-20. 
 See also Brassfoimders' Ague. 
 
 LEIGH, J. DICKINSON, M.D., F.E.C.S., L.E.C.P., 
 D.P.H., of Bishop Auckland, Durham. Evidence, 
 
 10016-77. 
 
 Beat hand, 10041-4, 10061-3. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 10046-51. 
 Poisoning by gas, 10052-60, 10064-9. 
 Sprained wrist, 10020-37. 
 
 LEWIS, HOWELL, official of Dock Labourers' Union. 
 Evidence, 3849-3917. 
 
 Tinplate industry, diseases of, 3852-917. 
 
 LINDSAY, PKOEESSOE of Medicine of Queen's Col- 
 lege, Belfast. Evidence, 7234-7365. 
 
 Flax trade, fibroid phthisis in, 7237-365. 
 
 Lithographing 
 
 Eczema prevalent amongst females, Parkea 9412-8. 
 
 LOAKE, JOHN, of Loake Bros., Kettering, Vice- 
 President of the Incorporated Federated Asso- 
 ciation of Boot and Shoe Manufacturers of Great 
 Britain and Ireland. Evidence, 10394-439. 
 
 Chrysoidine poisoning, 10406-35. 
 
 Phthisis among boot workers, 10394-10404. 
 
 LONGBOTHAM, JONATHAN, director and con- 
 sulting engineer of Messrs. J. Grayson, Lowood 
 and Co., Ltd., Sheffield. Evidence, 977-1062. ' 
 
 Ganister disease, 977-1062. 
 
 ^^ Luftdnich Erkraubungen," by Von Schrotter, cit. Hill 
 809, 814, 860. 
 
 MACFADYEAN, Sir JOHN, M.B., President of the 
 Eoyal Veterinary College, President of the Eoyal 
 College of Veterinary Surgeons. Evidence, 1- 
 100. 
 
 Anthrax, 80-5. 
 
 Foot and mouth disease, 86-90, 98. 
 
 Glanders, 1-100. 
 
 Mange, 91-2. 
 
 MACGEEGOE, PETEE, L.K.C.P., F.K.C.S. Evi- 
 dence, 607-710. 
 
 Stonedressers' phthisis, 689-710. 
 Di-nitro-benzol poisoning, 607-88. 
 
 MACPHAIL, DONALD, M.D., of Coatbridge, Lanark- 
 shire. Evidence, 5549-609. 
 
 Beat hand and knee, 5573-89. 
 Miners' phthisis, 5555-66, 5595-605. 
 
 McALDOWIE, A.M., M.D., of the North Staffordshire 
 Infirmary, Medical Officer to the North Staffs. 
 Provident Institution. Evidence, 6832-6917. 
 
 Potters' asthma, 6837-917. 
 
 McCULLY, A. L., M.B., doctor to employees of Messrs. 
 Eead, Holliday, tnd Sons, Huddersfield. Evi- 
 dence, 515-606. 
 
 Nitro-beuzol poisoning, 515-606. 
 
 :SIcLAEEN, J., M.B., CM., of Oughtibridge, Sheffield. 
 Evidence, 1122-242. 
 
 Ganister disease, 1131-242. 
 Phthisis, 1131, 1146-8. 
 
 McSTOCKER, W. C, President of the Society of 
 Amalgamated Brass Workers. Evidence, 2617-58. 
 Brass casting, 2621-58. 
 
 :\[cWILLIE, J. G., M.B., CM., D.P.H., of Hull. 
 Evidence, 10120-62. 
 
 Bronchitis among grain porters, 10121-62. 
 
 Main Drainage 
 
 Baeteria in the air of sewers, Fitzmaiirice 10462-4 ; 
 
 Collie 10472-6. 
 Cases of illness, statistics of, Fitzmaurice 
 
 10442-51. 
 Mortality statistics. Collie 10466. 
 No trade illness, Fitzmaurice 10452, 10454 ; Collie 
 
 10466, 10479. 
 Time lost through illness small, Collie 10467-8. 
 
 MALET, HENRY, M.D., Medical Officer of Health for 
 Wolverhampton. Evidence, 4215-34. 
 
 Grinders' phthisis, 4216-35. 
 
 Mallein 
 
 Of value in diagnosing glanders, Maefadyean 35-7. 
 
 Mange 
 
 Cause difficult to distinguish, March 153. 
 Symptoms, March 125, 136, 149-57. 
 Unimportance of, Maefadyean 91-2, 96. 
 See also Glanders. 
 
 Match-box making 
 
 Eczema rare, Scott 4722, 4734. 
 
 MEGHAN, AETHUE, M.B., CM., for Engineermg 
 Employers' Federation and Shipbuilding 
 Employers' Federation. Evidence, 5090-172. 
 
 Boilermakers neurosis and deafness, 5160-9. 
 Compressed air illness, 5093-101. 
 Grinders' phthisis, 5102-59, 5170-2. 
 
 MEIGHAN, T. SPENCE, M.D., Surgeon to Glasgow 
 Eye Infirmary, &c. Evidence, 5020-89. 
 
 Miners' nystagmus, 5022-89. 
 
 Melanosis 
 
 or black spit, Scott 4560. 
 
 Middlesbrough 
 
 Epidemics and prevalence of pneumonia at, Hedley, 
 2787, 2812, 2826 ; Dingle 2844-5, 2887 ; Haldane 
 3196 I Wyper 5335. 
 
 Miners 
 
 Age understated for insurance purposes, MacPhail 
 5601-5. 
 
 Miners' Asthma 
 
 Caused by coal dust, Hartill 7558-9 ; Smillie 9473. 
 Caused by foul air, Smillie 9476, 9480. 
 Compensation advisable, Smillie 9491 ; Harvey 
 
 9552, 9606-24. 
 Prevalence of, Smillie 9480 ; Harvey 0615-18. 
 Prevention by baths, &c., Smillie 9497-504. 
 
 Miners' Bronchitis 
 
 Caused by dust, Glaister 4483 ; Bell 4961, 4964-5 
 
 Tatham. 9339-40 ; Harvey 9602. 
 Distinguishabilitv from ordinary bronchitis, Belt 
 
 4957-60, 4963-4. 
 Prevalent, Harvey 9618 ; Tatham 9344. 
 Symptoms', Bell 4963-4 ; Harvey 9605. 
 
 Miners' Bursa 
 
 See Beat Knee. 
 
 Miners' Elbow 
 
 See Beat Elbow. 
 
 Miners' Federation, evidence of W. E. Harvey, on 
 behalf of, 9545-625. 
 
 Miners' Knee 
 
 See Beat Knee. 
 
 Miners' Nystagmus 
 
 Burden of proof should rest on employer, Ellis 
 
 9288. 
 Cases, Meighan 3071-2 ; Boyle 5772-81 ; Anderson 
 5844, 5864 ; Murray 9025, 9037 ; Smith 9170 ; 
 Smillie 9446. 
 In industries other than mining, Snell 1626-7, 
 
 1629 ; Shufflebotham 2184, 2205-6. 
 Recognised by benefit societies, Bell 4944-6. 
 Seldom severe, Meighan 5046. 
 Caused by insufficient light, boyle 5778-9; Anderstm 
 5846, 5866 ; Murray 9034 ; Smillie 9445 ; 
 Harvey 9566-86 ; Leigh 10047. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES 
 
 403 
 
 Miners' Nystagmus— con*. 
 
 Caused by strained position of head and eyes, Snell 
 1473-85 ; Preston 1542-9 ; Snell 1626, 1629 ; 
 Shufflebotham 2132-3, 2167 ; Murray 9034 ; 
 Smillie 9445 ; Leiffh 10047 ; Wilson 10083. 
 Compensation advisable, Jloody 8470; Smillie 
 ,9445, 9%65-9 ; Harvey 9549 ; Wilson 10086. 
 Difficult to administer, Meighan 5047-53, 
 
 5086-9 ; Greene 9235 ; Ellis 9276. 
 Might be claimed by many, Snell 1603, 1611-5 ; 
 Shufflebotham 2171 ; Meighan 5047, 5054 ; 
 Smith 9203-7. 
 Necessary when severe, Bell 4947-56 ; Meighan, 
 
 5041-5. 
 Should be shared by all employers, Ellis 
 9276-8. 
 Conditions of -work, Snell 1473, 1475-6, 1479-80 ; 
 
 Preston 1496, 1499-1503, 1506-9. 
 Degree of Nystagmus, and incapacity do not ad- 
 vance pari pasm, Snell 1579-81, 1616-17 ; Shuffle- 
 botham 2120, 2163-6 ; Bell 5013-4 ; M^lrray, 9038- 
 ^ 44 ; Smith 91P7-90 ; Leigh 10050-1 ; Wilson 10088- 
 
 90. 
 Description of, Anderson 5855. 
 Diagnosis fairly easy, Moody 8460 2 ; Murray 9028 : 
 
 Smith 9173-4. 
 First stage may be ignored, Meighan 5078-9. 
 Gradual development, Shufflebotham 2136-7 -jMurray 
 9064-5 ; Nasmyth 9136 ; Smith%\M ; Greene 9236- 
 7 ; Smillie 9464 ; Wilson 10084. 
 Incapacitation from disease rare, Shufflebotham 
 
 2113-4, 2135 ; Kasmyth 9133-4. 
 Maliogering : Whether possible, Shufflebotham 
 2111-2 ; Meighan 5039 ; Moody 8475, 8479 ; Murt ay 
 9044, 9059, 9064 ; &mth 9181-5 ; Smillie 9451-8 ; 
 Wilson 10085. 
 Occupational Disease, Shufflebotham 2121-31 ; 
 I otheringham. 5504 ; Moody 8463 ; Murray 9024 ; 
 Smith 9175 ; Greene 9234'; Ellis 9276 ; Smillie 
 9445. 
 Oscillations frequent, Snell 1483, 1579, 1599. 
 Possibility of a chronic oscillatory stage not inter- 
 fering with work, Snell 1598-1602, 1638. 
 Prevention, whether possible, Snell 160S-10. 
 Proclivity to disease incurable, Meighan 5032, 
 
 5055-8, 5080-1, 5084. 
 Proportion of colliers aflfected, Snell 1604 ; Shuffle- 
 botham 2114-6 ; Bell 4941-2 ; Meighan 5025, 
 .5064 ; Harvey 9561. 
 Eest or change of occupation necessary for cure, 
 Sndl 1588-96; Meighan 5031, 5061; Murray 
 9052-5, 9062 ; Greene 9237-40 ; Smillie 9447-8, 
 9549-63 ; Lewjh 10048. 
 Safety lamps conducive to it, Snell 1 643 ; Meighan 
 5069-70 ; Browne 5431-4 ; Robertson 5461-72 ; 
 Boyle 5778-9 ; Anderson 5846 ; MacPhail 5609 ; 
 Harviy 9566-86. 
 Scheduling : Consequences likely to occur, Snell 
 
 1612, 1621-5 ; Ellis 9276-81. 
 Suspension recommended, Murray 9054-63 ; Smith 
 
 9176. 
 Symptoms, Snell 1476, 1484-5; Preston 1486-9, 
 1512-6, 1528-39, 1549-55, 1562-4; Bell 4940, 
 4946 ; MrAghan 5033, 5072-5 ; Mur.ay 9043, 9047- 
 50, 9056 ; Smith 9180. 
 Time lost through illness, Preston 1516, 1552-5 ; 
 Bell 4942-3 ; Meighan 5024-7, 5034. 
 
 Miners' Phthisis 
 
 Anthracosis, a better term, Moody 8547 ; Reynolds 
 
 6325, 6332. 
 Cases decreasing, Scott 4553-4 ; MacPhail 5561-3 ; 
 Brooke 8646-9 ; Nasmyth 9117-9 ; Smith 
 9153 ; Tatham, 9310-11, 9330, 9344 ; Oliver 
 10636. 
 Increasing, Moody, 8530-1. 
 Coal dust the cause, O'Z-ee/e 6030, 6096-101 ;i2e.v- 
 nolds 6350-5 ; Hartill 7573, 7578-9 ; Moody 
 8517-21,8524,8554-7. 
 Not the cause, Haldane 3144 ; Murray 9081 ; 
 Nasmyth 9117; Smith 9157; Oliver 10644, 
 
 Coal or ganister the cause 1 Kite 8779; Brooke 
 
 8607-8639. . , ,^ , „.n^ 
 
 Change of occupation beneficial. Moody 8527. 
 Compensation advisable, O'Keefe 6077-8; Moody 
 
 8529. 
 Difficulties of, O^iWr 10704. 
 Difficulty of fixing responsibility, Haldane 3111, 
 
 3136. 
 
 Miners' Phthisis— con<. 
 
 Compensation advisable.— comf. 
 
 For incapacitation from fibrosis only, Hartill 
 
 7598. 
 Limited to men over fifty. Moody 8530, 8533-9. 
 Death not actually caused, O'Keefe 6103. 
 Deaths from consumption at Beath, Nasmyth 
 9112-5. 
 In Willenhall, Hartill 7602. 
 Diagnosis difficult, //aZc^aree 3027-8, 3110; Hartill 
 7554-7. 
 Easy, O'Keefe 6027 ; Smith 9164. 
 Distinguishability from tubercular phthisis, M;iaren 
 
 1168-9 ; Dingle 2892 ; Haldane 3138 ; O'Keefe 
 
 6064, 6070-4, 6093 ; Hartill 7573, 7581-7601. 
 Incapacitation usual after 50, O'Keefe 6085, 6091, 
 
 6101 ; Moody 8522-3, 8525. 
 Intemperance not prevalent, O'Keefe 6087-8. 
 Medical supervision advised, O'Keefe 6112. 
 Occupational, i/aWawe 3034-7 ; Smith^\%i. 
 Post-mortem removes all doubt, Haldane 3039-41, 
 
 3145-51. 
 Precautions against dust, Brooke 8603-4. 
 Predisposes to tuberculosis, Haldane 3026, 3133, 
 
 3169-72 ; Hartill 7588-97 ; Smith 9151. 
 Prevalent amongst coal miners, O'Keefe 6027, 6041. 
 
 Amongst metalliferous miners, Haldane 3075-91. 
 Rare among coal miners, Haldane 3022, 3164 ; Oliver 
 
 10658. 
 Rock drill work, danger of, Haldane 3124-9. 
 Scheduling would probably result in unemployment 
 
 of older miners, Haldane 3100-13 ; Oliver 10658. 
 Silicious dust the cause, Haldane 3025-8, 3036-43, 
 
 3050-90, 3132-4, 3145-6, 3150-1, 3181. 
 Silicosis or siderosis, more comprehensive terms, 
 
 Haldane 3161-87 ; Reynolds 6325 ; Moody 8547 ; 
 
 Tatham 9332-3, 9337, 9360. 
 Symptoms, Haldane 3183-6 ; Muir 4754-7 ; O'Keefe 
 
 6027, 6047-64, 6068, 6083, 6103 ; Hartill 7572, 
 
 7580-5 ; Oliver 10653. 
 Transvaal mining immigrants : heavy risk of 
 
 phthisis, Haldane 3029, 3035, 3037, 3105-7, 
 
 3118-23 ; Oliver 10703. 
 See also Ganister Disease. 
 
 Mining Association of Geeat Britain 
 
 Evidence of T. R. Ellis, secretary, 9270-90. 
 A. J. Greene on behalf of, 9225-69. 
 Dr. Nasmyth on behalf of, 9105-39. 
 
 Mining 
 
 Compensation required for illness due to bad venti- 
 lation, Boyle 5783-5. 
 
 Deatb from explosions usually due to carbonic 
 oxide, Haldane 2925. 
 
 Illness caused by foul air, Boyle 5782-8; Anderson 
 5848-52, 5857-60 ; Moody 8505-16. 
 
 Schedule should distinguish coal from other 
 mining, Ellis 9284-6. 
 
 See also Beat Elbow, Beat Hand, Beat Knee, 
 Miners' Nystagmus, Miners' Phthisis, Sprained 
 Wrist, Teno-synovitis. 
 MITCHELL, DUGALD, M.D., of Falkirk. Evidence, 
 5665-92. 
 
 Chrome ulceration, 5666-78 
 
 Grinders' phthisis, 5682-92. 
 MOODY, A. ROWLEY, M.B., of Staffordshire. Evi- 
 dence on behalf of the Miners' Federation of 
 Great Britain, 8455-593. 
 
 Beat hand, knee, and elbow, 8481-504. 
 
 Carbonic oxide poisoning, 8505-16. 
 
 Miners' nystagmus, 8459-80. 
 
 Miners' phthisis, 8517-84. 
 
 Potters' phthisis, 8584-91. 
 
 MOORE, BERNARD, Stoke-on-Trent. Evidence, 
 6954-78. 
 Potters' phthisis, 6955-78. 
 MOORE, DENIS, glass bottle manufacturer at Wool- 
 wich. Evidence, 10195-214. 
 Bottle makers' cataract, 10195-214. 
 
 MORROW, L., member of Amalgamated Society of 
 Lithographic Artists, &c. Evidence, 8943-9020 
 Bi-chromate of ammonia poisoning, 8944-9020. 
 
 MUIR, ROBERT, M.D., Professor of Pathology in 
 Glasgow University. Evidence, 4736-810. 
 
 Fibroid phthisis, 4737-810. 
 
404 
 
 INDEX : 
 
 MUKRAY, GEORGE, M.A., M.D., F.R.C.P., physician 
 to North of England United Coal Trade Associa- 
 tion, &c. Evidence, 9021—9104. 
 
 Beat hand and beat knee, 9088-9104. 
 
 Miners' nystagmus, 9023-68. 
 
 Miners' phthisis, 9079-86. 
 
 MURRAY, H. MONTAGUE, M.D., senior physician 
 at Charing Cross Hospital. Evidence, 4076- 
 4104. 
 Fibroid phthisis from asbestos dust, 4077-104. 
 
 MURRAY, WILLIAM, M.D , formerly of Birmingham 
 General Dispensary. Evidence, 2207-2348. 
 
 Brassfounders' ague, 2211, 2260-3, 2330-7, 2346. 
 
 Brass poisoning, 2211-94, 2313-29, 2347. 
 
 Fibroid phthisis from brass dust, 2271-2, 2296-2306, 
 
 2348. 
 Notes on fatal case of brass poisoning, Bradley 
 
 2612. 
 
 Naphtha Poisoning 
 
 Cases, Bury 6195. 
 
 No cases, Frankenhurg p. 526 ; Reynolds^ 
 6453. 
 Chronic disease not caused, Glaister 4536 ; Oliver 
 
 10631-4. 
 Fatal case, Glaister 4530-5. 
 Industrial disease not caused. Bury 6197 ; Reynolds 
 
 6453. 
 Symptoms, Dearden 3611 ; Smith 5916. 
 See also Carbon Bi-sulphide Poisoning. 
 
 NASMYTH, T. GOODALL, M.D., D.Sc, D.P.H., 
 F.R.S.E., Medical Officer for Fife, Kinross, and 
 Clackmannan-shires. Evidence on behalf of 
 Mining Association of Great Britain, 9105-39. 
 
 Beat hand and beat knee, 9120-31. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 9132-9. 
 Phthisis death-rate in Fife, 9109-19. 
 
 National Amalgamated Society of Male and 
 Female Pottery Woekeks. Evidence of 
 organisers, J. Booth and N. Parkes, 9364-9442. 
 
 National Society of Amalgamated Brass Workers 
 AND Metal Mechanics. Description of trades 
 represented, Davis 2471. 
 
 NEELE, ERNEST, General Manager of the Dinorwic 
 Quarry, Carnarvon. Evidence, 9637-67. 
 
 Slate quarrying, 9637-67. 
 
 Neurosis 
 
 Not caused by pneumatic tools, Mechan 5160-1 ; 
 Smith 10981-6. 
 
 Nenrosis of Boiler Makers 
 
 Due to alcohol, Scott 4642-4 
 
 Not a subject for compensation, Scott 4643 ; Smith 
 10981-6. 
 
 Neurosis of Railway Servants 
 
 Due to various causes, Scott 4678-84. 
 Examination of eyes desirable, Scott 4671-3. 
 Hours of work among engine drivers, Scott 4660-1. 
 Neurotic strain, possibly ocular, Scott 4669-72. 
 Result of employment, Scott 4665. 
 Symptoms, Scott 4658-9. 
 
 Nickel Carbonyl Poisoning 
 
 Cases, Jones 3386-93. 
 
 Caused by defects in the apparatus, Jones 3401. 
 
 Classed as an accident, Ealdane 2933, 2939 ; Jones 
 
 3404-5. 
 Diagnosis difficult, Jones 3406-8. 
 
 Not difficult, Ealdane 2931-2. 
 Disappearance of poisoning, by precautions, Jones 
 
 3394-T. 
 Fatal cases, Haldane 2923, 2972; Jones 3387, 
 
 3391-3. 
 Gradual nature of poison, Haldane S930-1. 
 Occurs in Mond process, Haldane 2929. 
 Precautions by ilond Co., Haldane 2957 ; Jonet 
 
 3394, 3420. 
 Symptoms, Hcddane 2969-72 ; Jones 3414-16. 
 
 Nickel Plating 
 
 Eczema frequent, Scott 4730-23 
 
 Nitric Acid 
 
 Use of, Carpenter 3233. 
 
 Nitro and Amido Derivatives of Benzene 
 
 See Anilin. 
 Nitro-glycerine 
 
 See Nitrous Fumes, Poisoning from. 
 
 Nitrons Fumes, Poisoning from 
 
 Cases really accidental, Rogers 913-16 ; Carpenter 
 
 3209, 3249 ; Dearden 3617 ; Oliver 10725-30. 
 Death caused by acute pneumonia, Rogers 930^ 
 
 935-9 ; Oliver 10726. 
 Deaths few, Stuart 8866-7. 
 Distinguishability, difficult without history of case, 
 
 Rogers 929-31 ; Dearden 3597-3601. 
 Effects temporary, Scott 4710. 
 Occurs in printing works, Dearden 3585. 
 Occurs at a definite time, Rogers 928, 932 ; Car 
 
 penter 3249-50,; Dearden 3590-2. 
 Results in death or quick recovery, Rogers 941. 
 Symptoms, Rogers 918. 
 
 NORGATE, R. H., M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., Medical Officer 
 of Stapleton Workhouse, Bristol. Evidence,, 
 10215-71. 
 Bootmakers, diseases of, 10215-71. 
 Chrysoidine Poisoning, 10253-71. 
 
 Northampton 
 
 Mortality statistics of phthisis, Beale 10403. 
 
 Northumberland 
 
 Miners almost free from nystagmus, Boyle 5775-7 1 
 Anderson 5844. 
 
 Northumberland Miners' Fedekation 
 
 Evidence by Dr. J. Anderson, on behalf of, 5805-74, 
 Mr. Boyle, 5728-5804. 
 
 NoRTHtTMBEllLAND MiNEES' MUTUAL ASSOCIATION 
 
 Evidence of President, H, Boyle, 5728-5804. 
 North-Eastern Steel Works 
 
 Conditions of work in, Hedley 2787, 2796-7. 
 
 North of England United Coal Teade Association 
 
 Evidence by Prof. Murray on behalf of, 9021-104. 
 Dr. Andrew Smith, 9140-224. 
 
 Nystagmus 
 
 See Miners' Nystagmus. 
 
 Oddfellows and Foeestees. 
 
 Non-admittance to brass casters, Ramsden, 2731. 
 
 Oil Extracting Works 
 
 Use of carbon bi sulphide. Smith 5958-9. 
 
 O'KEEFE, p. J., L.R.C.P., L.R.C.S., doctor to Chemical, 
 and Miners' Societies, St. Helens. Evidence 
 6007-131. 
 
 Emphysema among bottle blowers, 6009-23, 6114-18, 
 
 6121-31. 
 Miners' phthisis, 6027-113, 6119-20. 
 
 OLIVER, THOMAS, M.A., M.D., F.R.C.P., LL.D. 
 
 Evidence, 10526-730. 
 
 Bottle makers' cataract, 10675-81. 
 
 Creosote oil, effects of, 10707-13. 
 
 Eczema in laundries, 10577-85. 
 
 Electricity, dermatitis, 10611-27. 
 
 Electric welding, injury to sight, 10599-610. 
 
 Fibroid phthisis, 10635-704. 
 
 Gassing from sulphuretted hydrogen, and carbou 
 
 monoxide, 10538-70. 
 Glanders, 10587-98. 
 
 Rupture of the cardiac valve, 10628-30. 
 Stamplicker's tongue, 10714-24. 
 
 Operative Masons' Society. 
 
 Evidence of W. Hancock, secretary, 10272-393. 
 
 Optic neuritis 
 
 See Miners' Nystagmus. 
 
 ORBELL, HARRY, official of this Dockers' Union. 
 .Evidence, 3769-819. 
 
 Dock labourers diseases, 3759-819. 
 Night soil men, diseases of, 3812-6. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 405 
 
 Ore 
 
 Handling of, see Dock Labourers' Diseases. 
 Ostlers 
 
 Susceptibility 'to glanders, Macfadyean 24 
 
 OWEN, J., Inspector of Factories. Evidence, 9670-754. 
 
 Chrysoidine poisoning, 9670-97. 
 Dock labourers' diseases, 9698-754. 
 
 OWEN ROBERT, L.R.C.P., L.R.C.S., of Carnarvon 
 shire. Evidence, 8315-8454. 
 
 Pulmonary diseases among quarrymen, 8315-454. 
 
 Oxalic Acid 
 
 See Chrysoidine Poisoning. 
 
 Parapitraniline Dye 
 
 No ill-eflfects, Friswell 3754. 
 
 Poisoning from nitrous fumes, gradual development 
 of, Dearden 3588-9. 
 
 PARKE, J. L., M.D., to employees of John W. Leitch 
 and Co. Evidence, 711-805. 
 
 Di-nitro-benzol poisoning, 711-805. 
 
 PARKES, NOAH, Organiser of the National Amalga- 
 mated Society of Male and Female Fottery 
 Workers. Evidence, 9364-9442. 
 
 Potters' asthma, 9410-42. 
 
 Patella Bursitis 
 
 See Housemaid's Knee. 
 
 Photophobia 
 
 Cases of, Harvey 9558, 9564. 
 Pink Ileal 
 
 See Tinplate Industry. 
 
 Phthisis, Fibroid 
 
 Brick and cement workers develop disease about 40 
 
 Chalmers 4315. 
 Compensation -. 
 
 Decided by history of case and physical signs, 
 
 Gullatid 4920-1, 4930. 
 Difficulty of administering, Scott 4588-9, 4623-5 ; 
 Mmr 4758-76 ; Gulland 4931 and Appendix. 
 Advisable with limitations, Scurfield 1889, 
 1891-2. 
 Death-rate in Fifeshire, Nasmyth 9111-5. 
 Glasgow, Chahners 4308, 4313-4. 
 Sheffield, Scurfield 1848-55, 1907. 
 Swansea, Davies 8198-8202. 
 Wolverhampton, Malet 4221. 
 Diagnosis difficult. Hall 1780 ; Muir 4788-9 ; Eey- 
 
 nolds 6304-6, 6444 ; Oliver 10647, 10701. 
 Difficulty of determining whether due to employ- 
 ment, Scurfield 1836, 1840-3, 1852-4 ; Oliver 
 10645. 
 Of selecting a comprehensive term, Tatha/m 
 9326-63. 
 Distinguishability from 
 
 Bronchitis, Owen 8449-54. 
 Alcoholic phthisis, difficult, Poole 4153, 4161-3. 
 Tubercular phthisis, MacGregor 689-710 ; Long- 
 botham 995-1005, 1020 ; MacLaren 1146-8 ; 
 1168-75, 1214; Bohertshaw 1299, 1314-36, 
 1377-8; Hall 1696-9, 1773-7, 1781-6, 1805, 
 1809-10 ; Scurfield 1833-43 ; Haldane 3024-9, 
 3143, 3173-4 ; Glaister 4436-58 ; Scott 4562-3, 
 4570, 4578-9, 4600-2, 4612-25 ; Muir, 4758-76 ; 
 MecJian 5116-21 ; Wyper 5309, 5359, 5367-8, 
 5393-5 ; MacPhail 5557-9 ; O'Keefe 6064, 
 6070-4, 6093 ; Arlidge 6689, 6710-37, 6756-8 ; 
 McAldowie 6847-52, 6884-6, 6898-910; BuHon 
 6926-7 ; Moore 6966 ; Dawes 6987-90, 7045-55 ; 
 Jones, 7520, 7536 ; Hartill 7554-7, 7603 ; Oiven 
 8327-9, 8365-71; Broohe 8606, 8655; Kite 
 8774-7; Smfth 9150-1, 9164; Oliver 10641, 
 10660-9 ; Kerr 10825-6. 
 Found among chimney sweeps, Buthn 1951, 1974. 
 Physical signs absent, Oliver 10653. 
 Pneumoconiosis, i.e., dust disease, Tatham 9328-9. 
 Pneumonokoniosis, i.e. pneumonia from dust, 
 Reynolds &^0^. , ,^ . „ n n j 
 
 Post-mortem removes doubt, Mmr 4784-5 ; Gulland 
 
 4922-3. 
 Prevalent amongst grinders, cutlers, file cutters, &c., 
 
 Scurfield 1856-7. 
 Metal grinders, potters, hewers, and masons, 
 Scott 4603-8. 
 
 419 
 
 Phthisis, Fibroid— con«. 
 
 ^'fL'']^'^Li°.^^^?^^l'^ ^«^^ 1728-31; Scmfield 
 
 1854, 1858-62, 1873, 1907-29. 
 Prevention of. Hall 1740-52. 
 Recovenr questionable. Hall 1734-7, 1778. 
 bcheduRng a doubtful benefit, Scurfield 1890. 
 
 1893-4 ; Oliver 10652. 
 Symptoms, Scott 4562, 4591-6, 4598-9, 4626-33; 
 
 r^/per- 5395-405; Reynolds QZ\% ; Oliver \OQbZ. 
 Whether fatal, Glaister 4475-6. 
 
 Phthisis, Tubercular 
 
 Among drapers, shop girls and seamstresses, Scott 
 
 4563-6, 4571-8, 4580-3. 
 Death-rate decreasing in Glasgow, Ghalmer§ 4272-3, 
 
 Prevalence among bootmakers, Beattv 8890, 
 8895-7. ' 
 
 Pitch Poisoning 
 
 Bodies of men, pigmented, Brook 7664 ; Davies 
 
 7733 ; Hvans 7793, 7821. 
 Briquette-making least dangerous process, pp. 638-9. 
 Cases rare, Brook 7611-13 ; Hvans 7771 ; Roberts 
 
 7848-9, 7859 ; Jones 7978. 
 Cleanliness a preventative. Brook 7642-3 ; Davies 
 
 7745 ; Mans 7784, 7794-6 ; Roberts 7859-63. 
 Compensation only necessary for loaders and 
 breakers, Gregor 8235. 
 Urged, Wignall 3827-8. 
 Efi'ects serious, Wignall 3830. 
 Epithelioma of the scrotum, caused, Wignall 3830-1 ; 
 Brook 7614, 7629-31, 7648-57 ; Davies 7697, 7701, 
 7741 ; Evans ITli ; Roberts 7855 ; Jones 7978. 
 Eyes injured, Wignall 3825 ; Davies 7690-2, 7702, 
 7717 ; Evans 7802-6 ; Roberts 7839 ; Thomas 
 8142-88. 
 Difficulty of blaming pitch, Thomas 8160, 8274. 
 Malingering possible, Gregor 8244-6. 
 Septic poisoning of, Thomas 8186. 
 Personal examination of six afi'ected pitch workers, 
 
 8045-8132. 
 Promotion of men infrequent, Gregor 8249 58. 
 Time lost through illness, Wignall 3823 ; Davies 
 
 7710-21 ; Evans 7828. 
 Warts and cancerous growths caused, Wignall 3825 ; 
 Brook 7614, 7628, 7659 ; Davies 7678, 7686, 7693- 
 764 ; Roberts 7839 ; Jones 7978-9. . 
 
 Plumbism 
 
 Compensation and its results. Burton 6927-32, 6942. 
 
 Pneumoconiosis 
 
 Comprehensive term for dust disease, Tatham 
 9328-9. 
 
 Pneumonokoniosis 
 
 Reynolds 6325. 
 
 POOLE, SAMUEL, M.D., medical practitioner in 
 Wolverhampton. Evidence, 4105-214. 
 
 Grinders' phthisis, 4128-4207. 
 Grinding, 4107-28. 
 
 Posterior Cortical Cataract 
 
 See Bottle-makers' Cataract. 
 
 Potassium Chlorate 
 
 Anaemia a possible result, Buchan 4003-5. 
 
 Potters' Asthma 
 
 Cases decreasing, Shufflebotham 2025-33, 2055-60. 
 Arlidge 6686-7, 6709 ; McAldowie 6854 ; Burton 
 6921-4, 6927 ; Moore, 6956-65 ; Tatham 9315 
 Booth 9392-3 ; Parkes 9420-30. 
 Caused by inhalation of dust, Shufflebotham 2012-3 
 
 Booth 9371, 9378. 
 Change of occupation recommended, Shufflebotham 
 
 2023, 2053-4. 
 China scourers and biscuit placers the most liable, 
 Arlidge 6705-9, 6738, 6742, 6747 ; McAldowie 
 6845-6 , Bwrton 6937, 6949-53 ; i/oo»-e 6»5C!. 696 
 Dawes 7024-7 ; Moody 8590-1 , Booth 9373. 
 Compensation advisable. Booth 9383, 9396 ; Parkes 
 9431--2. 
 Last employer should pay, Booth 9384-6. 
 Objections to, Moore 6966. 
 Strict limitation urged, Burton 6927, 6936-9, 
 6946-8 ; Dawes, 7033. 
 
 3 F 
 
406 
 
 INDEX ; 
 
 Potters' Asthma,— cont. 
 
 Conditions of work improved, Shufflebotham, 2061-5, 
 
 2091-3 ; Booth 9393. 
 Decrease, owing to H.O. rules, Arlidge 6686-7 ; 
 
 Booth 9392-3. 
 Difficult to determine whether due to occupation, 
 
 Shufflebotham 2100-6. 
 Difficulty re 12 months' limitation, Shufflebotham 
 
 2022-5, 2034. 
 Distinguishability from similar diseases, Shuffle- 
 botham 2014-8, 2046. 
 From tubercular phthi'iis, Arlidge 6689, 6710- 
 37, 6756-8 ; McAldowie 6885 ; Burton 6926- 
 7 ; Moore 6966 ; Dawes 6987-90, 7039-55 ; 
 Johnson 7074-5, 7123-34. 
 Earthenware work harmless, Moore 6971-8. 
 Found in all potters after 40, McAldowie 8873, 6916. 
 Incapacitation in later life, McAldowie 6855-64, 
 
 6873, 6877-8, 6916 ; Booth 9376. 
 Malingering probable, Arlidge 6698, 6770, 6787. 
 Mortality statistics of female scourers of Longton, 
 Dawes 6804, 7057. 
 Potters of Longton, Dawes 6992-7009. 
 Potters of Stoke-on-Trent, Johnson 7076-85. 
 Pressers susceptible, Johnson 7078-82, 7092-97 ; 
 
 Booth 9372. 
 Preralency, Booth 9370, 9397-402. 
 Scheduling might cause unemployment of older men, 
 Booth 9387-2. 
 Would cause suspensions, Arlidge 6772-90; 
 Johnson 7110-11. 
 Similar to miners' phthisis, Haldane 3031, 3044, 
 
 3177. 
 Symptoms, Arlidge 6689 ; McAldowie 6849-53 ; 
 Dawes 6985-6, 7036, 7044. 
 
 Potters' Eczema 
 
 Caused by dust, Shufflebotham, 2037. 
 
 Distinguishability from similar diseases, Shuffle- 
 botham, 2040-2, 2068. 
 
 Found among dyers and bleachers, Shufflebotham, 
 2074-5. 
 
 Industrial disease, Shufflebotham, 2042-3. 
 
 Eare disease, Shufflebotham, 2035, 2039, 2044-5. 
 
 Potters' Phthisis 
 
 See Potters' Asthma. 
 
 "Potters' Rot" 
 
 See Potters' Asthma. 
 
 Pottery MAiq"UFACTUEEEs' Association 
 
 Evidence by W. Burton on behalf of, 6918-53. 
 
 Prepatella Bursa 
 
 See Housemaid's Knee. 
 
 PRESTON, JOHN, miner. Evidence, 1486-570. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 1486-570. 
 
 Printing Works 
 
 Nitrous fumes from, Dearden 3585. 
 
 Prussiate Black 
 
 Workers need not encounter fumes. Singer 321-7. 
 
 Quartz Dust 
 
 Effect on lungs, MacGregor 705^. 
 
 Rag Sorting 
 
 Cases of lung trouble, Reynolds 6440. 
 
 Railway Servants 
 
 Dining Car Attendants 
 
 Compensation needed. Knight 5967. 
 Consumption caused by chills and draughts. 
 
 Knight 5963, 5969. 
 Nervous breakdown caused. Knight 5976-82. 
 Varicose veins from standing. Knight 5971-5 
 5996, 6003-5. 
 
 Rainsfoed and Lynes 
 
 Respiratory apparatus, Evered 2451-2 ; Davis 
 2564-75. 
 
 RAMSDEN, JOHN, Vice-President of the Amalga- 
 mated Brass Workers' Society. Evidence, 2659- 
 2765. 
 
 Brass casting, 2660, 2726-47. 
 Brassfounders' ague, 2710-2. 
 Pulmonary diseases due to fumes, 2704-9, 2723. 
 
 RAUCH, Me., member of Amalgamated Society of 
 Lithographic Artists, etc. Evidence, 8943-9020. 
 
 Bi-chromate of ammonia poisoning, 8944-9020. 
 
 REID, JAMES, M.B., CM., in practice in St. Helens. 
 Evidence, 6504-39. 
 
 Chemical works, diseases from, in St. Helens, 
 6504-39. 
 
 REYNOLDS, E. S., M.D., Physician to the Manchester 
 Royal Infirmary. Evidence, 6292-466. 
 
 Carbon bisulphide poisoning, 6451-6. 
 Di-nitro benzol poisoning, 6458-66. 
 Mechanical bronchitis, 6298-450. 
 
 Rheumatism 
 
 Caused by mining, Smillie 9506-17. 
 
 ROBERTS, J. S. H., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S., of Swansea. 
 Evidence, 7836-80. 
 
 Pitch poisoning, 7839-80. 
 
 ROBERTSHAW, W. M., M.B., CM., of Stockbridge, 
 near Sheffield. Evidence, 1243-1459. 
 
 Canister disease, 1255-1459. 
 
 ROBERTSON, JOHN, for Scottish Miners' F ederation 
 Evidence, 5444-72. 
 
 Beat hand and knee, 5447-53. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 5461-72. 
 Sprained wrist, 5454-60. 
 
 ROBINSON, W., M.D., M.S., F.R.C.S., hon. surgeon, 
 to County of Durham and Sunderland Eye In- 
 firmary. Evidence 3302-79. 
 
 Bottle-finishers' cataract 3304^72. 
 Electric welding 3373-9. 
 
 Roburite 
 
 Dearden 3552 ; White 6586-95 ; Murray 9075. 
 
 Rock-drill Work 
 
 Danger of, Haldane 3124-9. 
 
 RODERICK, De. S. J., M.B., of Llanelly. Evidence, 
 
 7881-7918. 
 
 Tinplate industry, asthma prevalent, 7882-918. 
 
 ROGERS, A. B., Civil Surgeon, Cliffe Fort. Evidence, 
 911-975. 
 
 Nitrous fumes, 913-75. 
 Sulphur fumes, 931, 950-64. 
 
 Rontgen Rays 
 
 Cause burns and dermatitis, Oliver 10625. 
 
 Ross, Dr., of Manchester. Experiments with bisulphide 
 of carbon. Smith 5907, 5910-3. 
 
 Royal Victoria Hospital, Edinburgh 
 
 Ages of patients, GuUand 4931, Appendix. 
 Diseases treated, GuUand 4931, Appendix. 
 Occupations of patients, GuUand 4931, Appendix. 
 Sex of patients, GuUand 4931, Appendix. 
 
 RUEGG, ALFRED HENRY, K.C. Evidence, 8733-67, 
 Ganister disease, 8733-67. 
 
 Rupture. 
 
 See Hernia. 
 
 Satinwood Poisoning 
 
 Article by Dr. Bidie, Surgeon-General of Baltimore) 
 on various kinds of satinwood, cit. Jones 9893. 
 
 Article by Dr. Grabham, of Canterbury, on satin- 
 wood, in the " British Medical Journal " of 15th 
 April, 1905, cit. Jones 9893. 
 
 Caused by dust of wood, Jones 9905, 9917-8. 
 
 Different kinds of wood, Jones 9892. 
 
 East Indian variety harmless, Jones 9893. 
 
 Number affected, Jones 9894, 9925. 
 
 Susceptibility increases, Jones 9923, 9926. 
 
 Symptoms, Jones 9898, 9901-3. 
 
 Time lost through illness, Jones 9900, 9923. 
 
 West Indian variety injurious, Jones 9893. 
 
 SCOTT, ALEXANDER, M.D., Factory Surgeon, etc. 
 Evidence of, 4549-4735. 
 
 Boilermakers' neurosis and deafness, 4634-54. 
 Carbonic oxide poisoning, 4693-706 
 Eczema, 4722-35. 
 
DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 407 
 
 SCOTT, ALEXANDER, M.D.-con<. 
 
 Miners' phthisis, 4552-633. 
 
 ■Nitrous fumes, 4707-9. 
 
 Railway servants' neurosis, 4655-92. 
 
 Scottish Miners' •Federation 
 
 Evidence on behalf of, by 
 
 Andrew Lees Bell, M.D., D.P.H., 4932, 5019. 
 
 R. Brown, 5414-43. 
 
 J. Robertson, 5444-72. 
 
 The President, Mr. Smillie, 9443-544. 
 
 SCURFIELD, HAROLD, M.D., CM., Medical Officer 
 of Health for Sheffield. Evidence, 1826-929. 
 
 Grinders' phthisis, 1833, 1852, 1858, 1929. 
 Phthisis in Sheffield, 1847, 1929. 
 
 Seaham Harbour Bottle Works, Robinson 3310-H. 
 
 Sheffield 
 
 Mortality statistics of consumption amongst women 
 over 55, Snirfield 1^51-3. 
 of cutlers, Scurfield 1873. 
 of different industries, Scurfield 1908-29. 
 of grinders, Scurfield 1858-62. 
 of industrial phthisis, Scurfield 1854, 1907. 
 of respiratory diseases, Scurfield 1863. 
 
 Sheffield Royal Hospital 
 
 Particulars of phthisis out-patients and their trades. 
 Hall 1762-4. 
 
 Sheffield United Cutlery Council. Evidence of 
 Secretary, Mr. Holmshaw 10848-958. 
 Composition of the Union, Holmshaw, 10945-9. 
 
 Ships 
 
 Danger through cleaning infected, Wigiiall 3846-7. 
 
 Shipbuilding Employees' Federation. Evidence by 
 A. Mechan, on behalf of, 5090-5172. 
 
 SHUFFLEBOTHAM, FRANK, M.B., of Newcastle- 
 Tinder-Lyme. Evidence, 2006-2206. 
 
 Beat hand, 21.39-4.5, 2153-61, 2175, 2201-05. 
 
 Beat knee, 2139-52, 2192-2200. 
 
 Dermatitis or potters' eczema, 2068-75, 2107-8. 
 
 Miners' nystagmus, 2109-38, 2163-73, 2182-91, 
 2205-6. 
 
 Potters' asthma, 2006-67, 2076-2106. 
 
 Shuttle Makers' Society, Blackburn. Evidence of 
 Secretary, Mr. Isherwood, 3422-94. 
 
 Shuttle Making 
 
 African boxwood poisoning, Isherwood 3424-94; 
 
 Stewart 492-514 ; Dixon 5693 ; Gibson 6468-6503. 
 Men work half naked, Gibson 6473, 6501. 
 Woods used in process, Boyle 3469-85; Gibson 
 
 6470-96. 
 
 Siderosis 
 
 Industrial lung diseases, Ealdane 3168-87 ; Reynolds 
 6325 ; Tatham 9332-3. 
 SIEMENS, A., of Siemens Brothers and Company, Ltd., 
 Electrical Engineers. Evidence 10959-99. 
 Compressed-air illness 10975-9, 
 Electric welding 10969-74. 
 Grinders' phthisis 10959-68, 109/9. 
 
 Silica 
 
 A dangerous dust, Haldane 3060 ; Eall 1688. 
 
 Silicosis ^ ^„ ^. , 
 
 Industrial lung diseases, Haldane 3161-87 ; Moody 
 
 8547 ; Reynolds 6325 ; Tatham 9332, 9337, 9360. 
 See also Stonemasons' Phthisis. 
 
 SUver-plating Industry 
 
 Eczema occurs. Hall 1819 ; Scott 4722, 4730-2. 
 
 SIMON, ROBERT M., M.D. Evidence 2349-2417. 
 
 Brass-founders' poisoning, 2354-79 ; 2392-5 ; 2406- 
 
 17 
 Bronchitis from zinc fumes in brass founding, 2380, 
 
 Fibroid phthisis, 2380-4, 2395-2405. 
 'ilNTFR I Chief Chemist of the Bradford Dyers' 
 Association. Evidence, 172-349. 
 Anilin dyeing, and poisoning, 172-349. 
 419. 
 
 Slate 
 
 Chemical analysis of, Kellow 9853. 
 
 Slate ftuarrying 
 
 Bronchitis prevalent, Owen 8448-54. 
 Fibroid phthisis : 
 
 Caused by slate dust, Ovjen 8336-48, 8351-4 ; 
 
 Oliver 10670-2. 
 Change of occupation advocated, Oiven 839.3-5. 
 Compensation ; burden of proof should rest on 
 workman, JVeele 9660-7 ; Ashmore 9791- 
 3, 9807; Kellow 9854-6. 
 difficulty of, without post mortems, Ash- 
 more 9803-6. 
 Death rate from pulmonary diseases in Park 
 and Croesor Quarries, Kellow 9825-9, 9834-7. 
 Development slow, Owen, 8372-7. 
 Diagnosis, difficulty of, Oioen, 8327-9, 8365-71, 
 
 8448-54. 
 Difficulty of attributing to employment, Ash- 
 more, 9789. 
 Dust : average amount in mills, Kellow, 9840-8. 
 
 difficulty to remove, Owen, 8439-47. 
 Improvements in the Oakley quarries, Ashmore, 
 
 9789, 9798. 
 Mortality statistics of phthisis, Jones, 7445-61, 
 
 7464-70 ; Ashmore, 9767-70. 
 No cases, Kellcnu, 9831. 
 Not confined to quarrymen, Ashmore, 9764, 
 
 9808. 
 Post mortems, report of, Owen 8383. 
 Prevalent in Carnarvon, Owen 8330-5. 
 Proportion affected, Owen 8330. 
 Sputum, examination of, Owen 8355-60. 
 Scheduling, consequences of, Ashmore 9789-92. 
 Inadvisable, Owen 8397-9. \ 
 
 Postponement advised, Owen 8424-32. 
 Syniptoms, Owen 8370-1. 
 Heart disease prevalent, Owen 8379. 
 Pneumonia : 
 
 Not due to dust, Owen 8331. 
 Period of development, Jones 7538-40. 
 Prevalent in Festiniog, Jones 7441 ; 7497-9. 
 Quarrying, a dangerous occupation, Jones 7527. 
 Symptoms, Jones 7483 ; 7503-5 ; 7515-7. 
 Tubercle supervenes later, Jones 7513. 
 Process of, Jones 7479-81 ; Ashmore 9762-3, 9772- 
 
 5 ; Kellow 9839. 
 Trade very bad, Ashmore 9792-3 ; Kellow 9850. 
 
 SMALLEY, ALFKED, general secretary of the 
 Bleachers', Dyers', and Finishers' Association. 
 Evidence, 490-1. 
 Anilin poisoning, 490 1. 
 
 SMILLIE, Mr., President of Lanarkshire Miners' 
 County Union, and Scottish Federation; 
 member of Miners' Federation of Great Britain. 
 Evidence, 9443-544. 
 
 Beat hand, elbow, and knee, 9470-2 ; 9522. 
 
 Miners' asthma, 9473-523. 
 
 Miners' nystagmus, 9445-69. 
 
 Sprained wrist, 9525-44. , 
 
 SMITH, ANDREW, M.D., of Whickham. Evidence 
 on behalf of North of England United Coal Trade 
 Association, 9140-224. 
 Beat hand, knee, and elbow, 9208-24. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 9169-207. 
 Miners' phthisis, 9148-68. 
 
 SMITH, A. M., on behalf of the Engineering Employers' 
 Federation. Evidence, 10959-99. 
 Compressed air illness, 10975-9. 
 Grinders' phthisis, 10975-81, 10987-99. 
 Neurosis, 10981-6. 
 
 SMITH, HARRY, trustee of the Amalgamated Brass 
 Workers' Society. Evidence, 2748-65. 
 Brass trade, disease of the, 2748-65. 
 Brass fitting : lead poisoning, 2755-65. 
 
 SMITH, WATSON, lecturer at Owens' College, Man- 
 chester, and University College, London. Evi- 
 dence, 5905-59. 
 Carbon bi-sulphide poisoning, 5907-59. 
 
 Snell, E. H. 
 
 " Compressed-air illness" cit. Hill 861, 876. 
 
 3 G 
 
408 
 
 IXDEX ; 
 
 SXELL, SIMEOX, F.R.C.S., L.R.C.r., Ophthalmic 
 Surgeon to the Sheffield Royal Infirmary, (fee. 
 Evidence, 1461-85, 1571-1663, 6217-91. 
 
 Amblyopia, 1650-63. 
 
 Bottle-workers' cataract, 6219-51, 6267-85. 
 
 Carbon bi-sulphide : effect aa the eyes, 6258-66, 
 
 6286-91. 
 Di-nitro benzol poisoning, 1649-63. 
 Electric -welding, 6252-7. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 1464-85, 1571-1643. 
 
 Sprained "Wrist 
 
 Compensation advisable, Staillie 9532-5 ; Harvey 
 9600 ; Wihnn 10106-8, 10116-7. 
 Already paid in Durham, Wilson 10098-5. 
 Description, Lei{/h 10028, 10036. 
 Incapacitation, Harvey 9590 ; Leigh 10026, 10031 ; 
 
 Wilson 10110-1. 
 Ironstone workers suffer, Leigh 10026, 10035. 
 Not accidental, Leigh 10037 ; Wilson 10110. 
 Prevalent among miners, Smillie 9525 ; Harvey 
 9589 ; Leigh 10020 ; Wilson 10094. 
 
 Stablemen 
 
 Susceptibility to Glanders, JIarch 160-5. 
 
 " Stamplickers' Tongue" 
 
 Almost extinct, Oliver 10714-24. 
 
 Steel Grinders' Phthisis 
 
 See Grinders' Phthisis. 
 
 Steel and Iron Works 
 
 Dust dangerous, Haldniie 3061 ; Wpper 5314-5. 
 Fibroid phthisis caused by dust in loading ore, 
 Gavin 5193-236, 5^54; Wyper 5293-308, 
 5318-9. 
 Rave, Fotheringham 5492-7; MacPhail 5562-6. 
 Heart disease prevalent among roller men, Ehtvorth 
 8282-314. 
 
 STEERS, ARTHUR, employee of Messrs. J. Grayson, 
 Lowood, and Co., Ltd., Sheffield. Evidence, 
 1083-1121. 
 
 Ganister disease, 1105-21. 
 
 STEWART, HAMILTON. Evidence, 492-514. 
 African boxwood poisoning, 492-514. 
 
 Stoke 
 
 Prevalence of potters' phthisis round, Haldane 
 3044. 
 
 Stone-dressers' Phthisis 
 
 See Stonemasons' Phthisis. 
 
 Stonemasons' Phthisis 
 
 Age at which it develops, Oulland 4819, 4853-7, 
 
 4874-8. 
 Average age at death is 44, Hancock. 10282. 
 Benefit societies, no extra premium, Gulland 
 
 4881-3, 4931— Appendix. 
 Cases, Gulland 4813 ; Hancock 10375. 
 Casual employment increases difficulty of compensa- 
 tion, Hancock 10308, 10372. 
 Caused by dust and cramped position, Gulland 
 
 4818-9, 4861-4. 
 Compensation : advisable for tuberculosis, Hancock 
 10292 ; 10335-7. 
 difficulty of administering, Gtdland 4844-52, 
 
 4H05-18 ; Oliver 10659-61. 
 urged without limitation, Hancock 10300-28, 
 10389. 
 Distinguishability from other fibroid phthisis, 
 
 Gulland 4829. 
 How far due to occupation, Gulland 4844-7, 4849, 
 
 4905-11. Also Appendix 4931. 
 Mortality statistics for Newcastle, Hancock 
 
 10278-80, 10366. 
 Prevention, Gulland 4885-91 ; Hancock 10339-62. 
 Symptoms, MacGregor 689-710 ; Gidland 4819-23, 
 
 4826-9, 4919. 
 Time of development, Hancock 10305-7. 
 
 STUART, T. W., general technical manager of United 
 Alkali Company. Evidence, 8853-85. 
 
 Carbon bi-sulphide poisoning, 8855-61. 
 
 Cyanide of sodium, poisoning from, 8875-9, 8881-5. 
 
 Nitrous fumes, poisoning from, 8866-8. 
 
 Submarines 
 
 Carbonic oxide poisoning in, Haldane 2962. 
 
 Sulphur Fumes 
 
 Not dangerous, Rogers 952-64. 
 
 Sulphuretted Hydrogen Poisoning 
 
 Really an accident, Buchan 3989-91 ; Leigh 10054 ; 
 
 Oliver 10561. 
 Symptoms, Carpenter 3213-26. 
 Temporarily incapacitated. Carpenter 3215-27 ; 
 
 Oliver 10541. 
 Temporary blindness sometimes caused, Carpenter 
 
 3213-4. 
 
 Sulphuric Acid Manufacture 
 
 Bronchitis and coughs caused by sulphurous acid 
 fumes. Carpenter 3206-8, 3289 ; Buchan 3992-4 ; 
 Glaister 4377, 4384. 
 
 Chronic effects of fumes, Glaister 4377. 
 
 Intemperance induced by depressing effects, Glaister 
 4379-80, 4390. 
 
 Proportion of men affected, Glaister 4387. 
 
 Sulphurous acid fumes, how caused, Glaister 4375. 
 
 Workers not incapacitated, Carpenter 3205- 
 
 SUNDEKLAND AND CoUNTY OF DUEHAM EyE In- 
 
 FiEMAEY. Evidence of Hon. Surgeon, 3302-79. 
 
 Suppurative Cellulitis 
 See Beat Hand. 
 
 Suppurative Inflammation of the Hand 
 
 See Beat Hand. 
 Swansea 
 
 Deaths from phthisis in, Davies 8198-202. 
 
 TATHAM, J. F. W., M.A., M.D., D.P.H., Superinten- 
 dent of Statistics at the Registrar-General's 
 Office. Evidence, 9291-363. 
 
 Mortality statistics of phthisis, 9291-363. 
 
 Teno-S3movitis 
 
 Description of, Anderson 5866. 
 Diagnosis easy, Anderson 5874. 
 Incapacitates for about ten days, Anderson 5872. 
 
 Textile Industry 
 
 Death rate from phthisis in Glasgow, Chalmers 
 4333-8. 
 
 THOMAS, FRANK, M.B., of Swansea General and Eye 
 Hospital. Evidence on the effect of pitch poisoning 
 on the eye, 8133-88. 
 
 Tinplate Industry 
 
 Diseases of, asthma, catarrh, etc., caused by fumes 
 
 and dust, Lewis 3854-7, 3864-8 ; Roderick 7893-6 ; 
 
 A. Jones 7944-57 ; G. Jones 8005-18. 
 Change of occupation cures, Roderick 7904-8 ; 
 
 (?, Jones 8005. 
 Hydrochloric acid fumes injurious, Lewis 3879, 3890. 
 No specific disease caused, Roderick 7887, 7891 ; 
 
 A. Jonei 7943 ; G. Jones 8005. 
 Pink meal injurious, Lewis 3854, 3886-94. 
 Process, Lewis 3864, 3880, 3882-6. 
 Proportion of men suffering from illness, Lewis 
 
 3896-903, 3908. 
 Time lost through illness, Leivis 3858, 3896-901 ; 
 
 Roderick 7911 ; G. Jones 8002. 
 Women affected by dust, Lewis 3909-10 : G. Jones 
 
 8041. 
 
 TOLHURST, F. C, London Branch Secretary of the 
 Amalgamated Society of Lithographic Artists, 
 Designers, etc. Evidence 8943-9020. 
 
 Bi-chromate of ammonia poisoning, 8944-9020. 
 
 Transvaal Eock-drill 
 
 Death-rate heavy from phthisis, Haldane 3118-23. 
 Risk of phthisis great, Haldane 3029, 3035, 3037, 
 3105-7, 3118. 
 
 Traumatic Cellulitis 
 
 See Beat Hand. 
 
 Tuberculosis 
 
 See Phthisis, Tubercular. 
 
 United Alkali Company, Carpe^iter 3286. 
 
 Evidence of T. W. Stuart, General Technical 
 Manager, 8853-85. 
 
 Von Schkottee. 
 
 " Luftdruck Erkraubungen," cit. Hill 809, 814, 860. 
 
DEPARIMENTAL COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL DISEASES. 
 
 409 
 
 Vulcanising Industry 
 
 Use of carbon bi-sulphide in, Dewrden 3610, 3618, 
 3625 ; Smith 5953-5. 
 
 Weavers' Bursa, Langton 4048, 4058-60. 
 
 WHITE, J. PR(J)SSER, Certifying Surgeon under 
 Factory Acts, Wigan. Bvidence, 6540-628. 
 
 Di-nitro-benzol poisoning, 6541-628. 
 
 "WIGNALL, JAMES, Official of the Dockers' Union. 
 Evidence, 3820-48. 
 
 Cleaning of infected ships, 3646-8. 
 Dock labourers' diseases, 3820-48. 
 Lead poisoning, 3835-44. 
 Pitch poisoning, 3822-34. 
 Spathic calcined are, 3844. 
 
 WILSON, ARTHUR C. J., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S., 
 Medical Officer of Health for Thurlstone, Peni- 
 stone Union, etc. Evidence, 9626-36. 
 Ganister disease, 9628-36. 
 
 WILSON, J., M.P. Evidence on behalf of the Durham 
 Miners' Association, 10078-10119. 
 
 Beat hand, knee, and elbow, 10080-1. 
 Miners' nystagmus, 10083-90. 
 Sprained wrist, 10094-111. 
 
 Wolverhampton 
 
 A healthy town, Poole 4113 ; Malet 4221. 
 
 Workmen's Compensation Act 
 
 Burden of proof shORld be thrown on the workman, 
 
 Ellis 9274-7. 
 Expenses will fall on the public, Hancock 10376-88. 
 Power to modify or extend, Eue<j(j 8755-7. 
 
 WuTZDORFF, Dk., report on basic slag works in 
 Germany, 1897, cit. Iledle;/ 2821. 
 
 WYPER, \VILLIA:\I, M.B., Ch.B., of Motherwell, 
 ^Medical Officer to Dalzell Poorhouse. Evidence, 
 5258-413. 
 
 Carbon monoxide poisoning, 5268-90, 5321. 
 Pneumonia from basic slag dust, 5310-8, 5322-38. 
 Steel and iron trade ; fibrosis prevalent, 5292-309, 
 5319-408. 
 
 Yorkshire Glass Bottle Manufacturers' Associa- 
 tion. Evidence of the Chairman, W. Breffit, 
 10782-804. 
 

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