3Si".,f7 3. •' ■ , -t ■ ■■. ■ ■. ; -- «««<<« «1^ BKFORE THE . • •"'■».»il' Interstate Commerce Cömmjlssion^^^^^ . Docket No, 12964. In the Matter of CONSOLIDATION OF THE RAILWAY PROPERTIES OF THE UNITED STATES INTO A LIMITED NUMBER OF SYSTEMS. STATEMENT FOR THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD SYSTEM BY SAMUEL REA, PRESIDENT. MAY, 1923. \ SUPPLEMENTAL STATEMENT FOR THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD SYSTEM SAMUEL REA, PRESIDENT. Vv?^■ JUNE, 1923. I Statement of Samuel Rea, President of the Pennsylvania , road System, before the Interstate Commerce Commission, in ' the matter of the Consolidation of the Railway Properties of the United States into a limited number of Systems. May, 1923. (No. 12964) August 3rd, 1921, the Interstate Q«n- merce Commission ordered its tentative plan for consolidation of th^ Railway Proper¬ ties of the United States into a limited number of Systems to be served upon the carriers, to which was appended the report of Professor William Z. Ripley, prepared by the direction of the Commission. Now in re¬ sponse to the order of tíie Commission of March 3rd, 1923, I attend this hearing, called to consider that part of the Plan affect¬ ing carriers in the Eastern District, to offer a statement respecting the Pennsylvania System. Tentative Consolidation Plan ' . I realize that the Interstate Commerce Commiasion has a definite duty-under the Transportation Act to pr^are and adopt a plan for. the foregoing purposes, and is en¬ deavoring to discharge it, and, having pro¬ mulgated a Tentative Plan, the Qjmmission is entitled to the best judgment of all concerned. Let me also express my appredation of the work done by-Professor Ripley in his report attached to the Tentative Plan, as an appen¬ dix. Whether we agree with his conclusions or not, we must admit that he brought to the task a detached mind, and endeavored to make an impartial study from all the facta and statistics which he could procure from printed documents, and from railroad officers, "owners, users, and others, having knowledge of the railroad properties. Peimaylvanla Systmn—How Coiutituted System designated No. 2—Pennsylvania— in the Interstate Commerce Qsmmissbn Tentative Plan includes practically all the railroads now composing this System, wholly «»ntrolled by leas^ stock ownership, or partly owned with other Systems, which is in accord with its growth and public service, and its relations with other carriers. This Sys¬ tem was developed along the two primary principles recited in the Transportation Act, namdy, moving the traffic through estab¬ lished channels and maintaining competition. The line itself was incorporated originally in 1846 to extend from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with a branch to reach the Great Lakes. It is well known that this route was part of the State's ambition to meet com¬ petition with the Erie Canal in New York, and had for its purpose not only reaching the Great Lakes but the Ohio River, and through the latter the Mississippi River. Before 1860 the Pennsylvania Railroad purchased the un¬ profitable Main Line of PuUic Works ownsl by the State of Pennsylvania, consisting of railroads and canals chiefly between Philadel¬ phia and the City of Pittsburgh, ertending across the Alleghany Mountains. In the sixties, and not withstanding the Civil War, it leased the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicapr Railway, which it had been assisting finan¬ cially for years, and by which it secured an entrance into the City of Chicago. The Pennsylvania Railroad loaned to that Com¬ pany to complete its railroad from Plymouth to Chicago, 111., the rails that had been used on the Alleghany Mountain Portage Rail¬ road, which the Pennsylvania Railroad pur¬ chased from the State of Pennsylvania. In 1861 the Pennsylvania Railroad leased the Philaddphia & Erie Railroad, which gave it a line from Sunbury, Pa., to Erie, Pa., on the. Great Lakes, and also obtained control of the Northern Central Railway which gave it a line from Sunbury, Pa., south through the Susquehanna Valley to York, Pa., and thence to the Chesapeake Bay at the Cily of Balti¬ more, Md. Tlie Pennsylvania Railroad Com¬ pany leased the Erie & Pittsburgh Railroad in 18HÎ, in 1871 the Cleveland & Pittsburgh Railroad, and later on developed and finally löised the Pittsburgh, Youngstown & Ash¬ tabula Railroad. In the seventies it furthered the construction of the Grand Rapids & Indi¬ ana Rhilroad from a ronnimtion on the Pitts¬ burgh, Ft. Wayne & Chicago Railway, near Fort Wayne, up through the Michigan Penin¬ sula, leading finally to ownership and lease. A somewhat similar story illustrates its relations to the Southwest System. Begin¬ ning as early as 18S2 with what is now the Pan Handle System (Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicapj & St. Louis R, R. Qs.), it furthered by financial grants, guarantee of bonds, advanras 2 of money, and traffic agreements, and later purchases of stock and securities, the Pan Handle System of railroads, which gave it entrance into the Cities of Cincinnati, Indian¬ apolis, St. Louis and Chicago, and gradually it consolidated and later leased these lines. Turning towards the East, having secured an entrance into the City of Philadelphia through the purchase in 1857 from the State of its public works, the Pennsylvania R. R. Co. in 1871 leased the United New Jersey Railroad and Canal Company lines (having previously constructed the link known as the Connecting Railway in Philadelphia to reach the Philadel¬ phia and Trenton Railroad) and thus extended the System from Philadelphia to New York, Harbor, via what is known as the present main line of the New York Division. It also thereby secured an alternate route known as the Camden and Amboy Railroad from the City of Camden to the Port of South Amboy, New Jersey. It also then and since acquired broader relations with railroad lines all over the State of New Jersey including what is known as the West Jersey & Seashore Rail¬ road which reaches Atlantic City, Cape May and other places. The relations with the Northern Central Railway Company were further strengthened by the joint construction, in the early seven¬ ties, of the Baltimore & Potomac Railroad, by which a through line was constructed from Baltimore into the City of Washington and other points. In 1881 the Pennsylvania acquired its majority interest in what is now the Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington Railroad through the purchase of stock. Later the Baltimore & Potomac Railroad was merged with it to form a through line to Washington. By purchasing control of the Union Railroad of Baltimore, the lines of the Northern Central Railway Co., and of the Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington Rail¬ road Co., had already been connected in the City of Baltimore, Md., and were subse¬ quently leased to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Therefore, for about forty years the Penn¬ sylvania System has been extended into its " present territory, with the exception of a di¬ rect entrance into the City of Buffalo, acquired through the purchase of stock and income bonds of the Western New York & Pennsyl¬ vania Railway in 1901, and the purchase of practically a controlling stock interest in the Norfolk & Western Ry. and the Long Island R. R. The work since that time has been largely the compacting of the System and the building of short branches and feeding lines to develop and serve the territory. With this as a groundwork it will, therefore, be very clear that the Pennsylvania System, as indicated in the tentative plan, represents a gradual creation of 75 years and, I think, in accord with the basic consolidation require¬ ments of the Transportation Act. It serves 13 States and the District of Columbia. It exchanges freight traffic with 157 railroad and terminal companies and at exchange points exceeding 750 in the aggregate. The reports to the Interstate Commerce Commission give full traffic and operating statistics, the latest report filed being that for 1922. I believe the subject needs no further discussion on my part as my statement is supplemented by maps, statistics, etc. From the list of com¬ panies'recited as tentatively assigned to this System, it will be noted that there are strong and some weak companies. Among the latter the Toledo, Peoria & Western Company (in which the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy also has an interest) is in receivership, and so is the Central Indiana Company, in which the Big Four has an equal interest with the Penn¬ sylvania System. The Lorain, Ashland & Southern, owned by the Pennsylvania and the Erie, is also a weak road. Then there are the jointly owned roads such as—Lake Erie & Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh, Chartiers & Youghiogheny and the Monongahela Rail¬ roads which are owned jointly by the New York Central and Pennsylvania Systems. These and several other relatively short rail¬ roads, and important terminals, in which the ^ Pennsylvania and other railroads are jointly interested, were built, or acquired, by their owners, to avoid duplication of railroads and terminals, and to effect economies, and should remain as neutral properties, for joint use. Should the joint management of these roads be changed, and their final disposition be made to one System, it would prove unsatisfactory to other existing using Systems, and be detri¬ mental to the public interest, and probably lead to parallel building, or shifting of traffic.. In the past thirty years 127 Companies have been eliminated by the Pennsylvania, chiefly through consolidation, or absorption; and it also leased 20 railroads, which so far ^ we did not deem it prudent to absorb, because of legal or financial questions. Consolidation which required the formation of new Corpora- 3 tbns' and the exchange or re-isane of large amounts of securities has always been avoided. In this way we have been compacting an operating system. From the financial side it is not yet dear that one System Company Could, or should, issue all the capital stock and bonds, to provide for the whole system not merely the new capital for improvements but for refunding all maturing issues; It is one task 1» sell ?10,000,(XM of stock or bonds per annum at a'good price, and have them absorbed easily by the investing public, and quite a dif¬ ferent task to sell {550,000,OCX) or more per annum with equally satisfactory results. As a result of such compacting of Corporations forming the Pennsylvania System, what were origin^y about 600 corporations, most of them promoted or financially assisted by the parent railroad rompany, have been reduced to 70 transportation companies imw constituting the Pennsylvania Rail¬ road System. With every desire to reduce unnecessary corporations, the System still has 70 transportation companies with iheir Separate organizations. These in turn have to be supplemented by water supply com¬ panies;'short electric lines to reach adjacent points; and warehouse companies, aU depend¬ ing upon the various physical and legal're- quiremaits that have to be met, so that the System still has over 100 active corporations of various kinds essential to carry, on the transportation service, and many more in¬ active corporations whose lines are not ßjnstructed. Norfolk & Western Railway ■ In the Tentative Plan of the Commission, and the appended report of Prof. Ripley, suggestions are made that the Norfolk & Western be excluded from the Pennsylvania Railroad System, and independently extraided from Columbus to Lake Erie, either by a grant of trackage rights or actual lease of that part of the Pennsylvania Railroad Sys¬ tem between Columbus and Sandusky, which forms part of the road owned by a subsidiary oimpany, known as the Toledo, Columbus & Ohio River Railroad;. and the other sugges¬ tion recommended for adoption in the Ten¬ tative Plan, is that the Norfolk & Western System should utilize the Toledo & Ohio Central Lines (New York Central System), which would obviate the necessity for the disruption from the Pennsylvania of the Columbus-Sandusky Line. Prof. Ripley's report shows that the Norfolk System at ife Eastern and Western termini connects with the Pennsylvania System and exchanges more traffic than with any other System, and in •many ways both Systems supplement each other, not as aunpetitors hut as connecting lines. To my mind his report conclusively demonstrates, from every standpoint, lie advisability of continuing the Norfolk in close co-operation with the Pennsylvania. Nevertheless the foregoing suggestions were made, respecting the "Norfolk," and I am bound to regard th«n as unwarranted by the facts, and, if adopted, would be hurtful to the interests of both Systems and to tie public which they serve, and to the traffic and busi- nras rdations whidx have been established for many years. The Pennsylvania, following its policies of many years, obtained financial interests in many of its principal connecting lines, in¬ cluding tie Norfolk & Western. For over twenty years tie Pennsylvania System has had a considerable stock interest in the Norfolk & Western, and representation on its Board of Directors, and in part through that informed and helpful counsel, the Norfolk & Western's property has been de¬ veloped with respect to coal terminals and other facilities, and has been kept equal to pubKc requirements, and the Norfolk & Western has become strong financially and very effective in its operation. Bediming in the seventies the Pennsylvania participated in the promotion and building of what was later known as the Shenandoah Valley Rail¬ road, which, after many difficulties, was finally constructed, extending from Hagerstown, Md., on the Cumberland Vallqr Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad, southwanl, and is now a part of the Norfolk & Western Rail¬ way. Since that time the traffic and other relations of both Companies have been most co-operative. The Norfdk & Western con¬ nects with the Pennsylvania System at Port Norfolk, Va., Hagerstown, Md., and Colum¬ bus,. Cincinnati, Circleville, Qare, Ivorydale and Idlewild in the State of Ohio, for the exchange of traffic. The Pennsylvania has spent millions of dollars for additional tracks and facilities in advance of what have been necessary for its ordinary traffic, so that it could distribute, or collect, Norfolk & Western traffic to the best advantage of both Companies, and of the industries and territory which they serve. 4 As part of that program it double-tracked a great portion of its line from Columbus West¬ ward to Chicago, and Northward to Sandusky, and at the latter point erected docks and machinery for the handling of Norfolk & Western coal traffic. Further, in the terminal developments in and around Norfolk, Va., and Hagerstown, Md., the co-operative working of these two Companies has saved duplication of expenditure, and has been of material ad¬ vantage in the exchange of traffic. In ten months of the year 1922 Pennsyl¬ vania distributed about ten million tons of coal and coke traffic on its System North, East and West of Columbus, and if from the co-operative relations and use of facilities the Pennsylvania System had not been able to obtain and move that coal to the homes and industries along its System, the public would have suffered great deprivations. This long connection with the Norfolk & Western as a connecting and distributing System has been most helpful in the development of transpor¬ tation, as can be proven from the enormous development of the coal and other traffic. The amount of freight traffic handled by the Norfolk 8: Western increased from 20,183,213 tons in 1907, to 32,701,743 tons in 1913, 48,196,792 tons in 1917, and on account of the strike fell to 3^357,078 tons in 1922, and the traffic delivered to the Pennsylvania System by the Norfolk & Western increased from 3,342,684 tons in 1907 to 10,525,581 tons in 1913, 13,781,129 tons in 1917, and dropped off to 12,163,208 tons in 1922 for the reason above stated. I respectfully urge that to sever the Norfolk & Western from Pennsylvania System would disrupt the movement of traffic from its nor¬ mal channels and would deprive it of a large amount of revenue which is necessary to maintain its present net return on its property investment; would leave it with expendi¬ tures made for the enlargement of its System West and North of Columbus but stripped of a large part of the Norfolk & Western traffic; and would segregate a very important part of a Pennsylvania subsidiary Co.—the Toledo, Columbus & Ohio River Railroad, which it requires to reach not only Sandusky but also as a route by which the Cities and ports of Toledo and Detroit are served. The situa¬ tion of the Norfolk & Western and the Penn¬ sylvania would not be helped by attaching the Norfolk to the Toledo & Ohio Central Lines to afford a Lake connection for the Norfolk from Columbus to Toledo. An ex¬ amination of the line will show that its grades would have to be revised, and the line rebuilt in part to handle the coal trains of the Norfolk, and new dock facilities would have to be con¬ structed at the Lake, and I further assume that the segregation of the Toledo & Ohio Central from the New York Central System, and its use for this purpose, would not be beneficial to the latter System. Both suggestions would put an increased handicap and unnecessary expense upon the public, and would disrupt a service for which the road, equipment and Lake facilities are already suited. In addition, this tentative proposal to disrupt natural connections with the Pennsylvania System, and substitute an enforced consolidation with an unsuited Lake line, and also leave the Pennsylvania System with an investment of over ¿54,000,000 par value in the stock of the Norfolk & Western does not, in my opinion, assist in carrying out the consolidations according to the Transpor¬ tation Act, and is hurtful to all concerned. The chief reason assigned for this divorce is undue magnitude, but mere magnitude is concerned chiefly with organization," which experienced management can provide; and in this case Prof. Ripley has demonstrated that the relationship of the two Companies is essentially that of connections, and he points out, more clearly than I can that the real test of successful consolidation is the return that can be earned on the property investment. In this case consolidation of the Norfolk & Western and the Pennsylvania would result in a moderate property invest¬ ment return that would not even equal other consolidations suggested viz: about 4.64 per cent, for 1917 and 4.03 per cent, for 1922. So far as management is concerned the Norfolk & Western even after consolidation would con¬ tinue to have an able operating management to deal with its own affairs affecting the public as at present, the principal change being more in the line of financing new im¬ provements and as to future general policy. I would further point out that the Pennsyl¬ vania cannot regulate the extent of its coal traffic, which is governed by the demands of the population, industries and territories served by its lines. For the protection of that territory, as well as for the protection of the Company itself it should co-operate to maintain and replenish that large coal traffic. It is true that for many years the State of 5 Pennsylvania has a large supply of coal for fuel and manufacturing purposes, but with the exhaustion of the larger bituminous coal seams, and the increased cost of working the deeper and smaller seams, a large part of the territory served by the Pennsylvania System must largely rely upon the coal fields of Kentucky, West Virginia and other places reached by the Norfolk & Western for its future adequate coal supply. Many of the important coal companies of Pennsylvania have purchased lands in these States for that purpose, and the Pennsylvania finds it equally as essential to protect its territory by retaining suitable railroad connections to handle that coal traffic. A great many of these features, I have no doubt, can be more clearly brought out when the Commission considers the suggested Norfolk & Western System. Western Extensions It has been suggested that the Pennsylvania Railroad System might have some interest in going west of the Mississippi River and also east of New York into the New England Region. So far as the west is concerned, our policy has been to regard Chicago and St. Louis as our gateways and rely upon our trafiSc relations with the other roads. I think that is a wise and a reasonable view in main¬ taining an efficient system within reasonable scope for administration, particularly in view of the dense traffic and population of the Eastern District. Chicago-St. Louis Line For such a large System as the Pennsylva¬ nia, with termini at Chicago and St. Louis, it may be in the public interest to round out the System by including a direct line con¬ necting the Northwestern Region of the System at Chicago with its Southwestern Region at St. Louis. The Chicago & Alton —only between those Cities—or the Chicago & Eastern Illinois would fulfill this suggested requirement. Traffic Exchanges with other Railroads The preservation of open gateways with the Pennsylvania's chief connections is very essential. In the single month of March, 1923, it delivered to its connections 260,756 loaded cars, and received from them 287,636 loaded cars. In its consideration we have the benefit of Prof. -Ripley's report, because he puts side by side the traffic statistics of the several gateways, and the amount of car interchange between the various carriers, whether competitors or not. In this he brings clearly to the front the relations with various roads, showing several important traffic. exchange railroads, and demonstrates that the open gateways result in the free ex- ' change of an extraordinary volume of traffic. For instance, the Reading and Pennsyl¬ vania systems are competitors in Eastern Pennsylvania, yet the Pennsylvania System is dependent upon the Reading for a large part of the anthracite coal tonnage needed in its territory, and the latter has fifty points on its System at which the Pennsylvania exchanges loaded and empty freight cars. The chief points are Philadelphia, Coates- ville, Harrisburg, Lebanon, Milton, Potts- ville, Shippensburg and Thurlow, Pennsyl¬ vania; Trenton, New Jersey; and Wilmington, Delaware. In the three closing months of 1922 alone, the Pennsylvania System de¬ livered to the Reading System 95,106 loaded cars, including over 55,000 cars received from the Baltimore and Ohio via our Cumberland Valley Division. It will, therefore, be seen that the Pennsylvania System has a deep interest in seeing that in any proposed scheme of consolidation the Reading System gateways are kept freely open, as it is a terminal dis¬ tributing railroad. The New England situation is another illustration of the benefits of Prof. Ripley's work, in putting side by side the traffic statistics of its several gateways at the Hudson River, which convey a better idea of the car movement to and from New Eng¬ land than any statistics heretofore published. It is surprising to note the volume flowing to and from the Boston & Maine Railroad, which is the primary System for Central and Northern New England, and aside from its interchange with the New York Central, it handled practically all the freight between that section and points West of the Hudson via the Delaware & Hudson, the Erie, the Lehigh Valley and the Lackawanna Systems, and through these roads traffic from the Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania is deeply interested in keeping the Boston and Maine as a gateway and open traffic exchange, notably through the Delaware & Hudson System and the joint Wilkes-Barre Gateway in Pennsylvania. It is also very important to the Pennsyl- 6 Vania S^rstcm that its traffic rclatbns with Kew England through the New Haven Rail- iroad be continued, both through New York "Harbor and, looking to the future,. through the New Haven's western gateways that now serve the Lehigh and Hudson River Railway and the Lehigh and New England Railroad. Pennsylvania has a small stock ownership in "the New Haven, and it has had established ■passenger and freight traffic relations with it for about fifty years. It is the New Haven's chief wcstbouhd connection, and a wide market for the latter's traffic is found chiefly in the Pennsylvania Railroad territory, and the connections it reaches. The Pennsyl¬ vania is also its chief feeder of products from the other States, including coal, steel, food and materials of all kinds for its factories. In connection with the New Haven System the Pennsylvania constructed the New York Connecting Railroad, known as the "Hell Gate Route" which includes the use of 11 miles of the Long Island Railroad, a part of the. Pennsylvania Railroad System. The New Haven and Pennsylvania Companies are joint owners of the stock and guarantors of the New York Connecting bonds, the road being operated by the New Haven. Our long established mutual relations have built up a large e.xchange traffic, and as a tonscquence well established commercial relations on a large scale have resulted be- "ttvecai both territories, so that any proposi¬ tion to assign the New Haven and its traffic to any other System would be a public calam¬ ity, as well as hurtful to the Pennsylvania System. It is true, as Prof. Ripley points out, that the New Haven's financial condi¬ tion is not strong, and under existing limited net earnings the Pennsylvania could' not carry its own burdens and financially carry the New Haven as well. However, under the proposed Consolidation Plan, which requires valuation and assumably re-capitalization of the Consolidated Systems, the financial ques¬ tions must be faced, and if adjusted in other 'cases, similar action wül be taken for New Haven, and in that event I am sure it will be found that all relationships, public and cor¬ porate, will unite the New Haven with the Pennsylvania System as the best method of giving the broadest transportation service. Even if that result should be brought about, the requirements of the territory donand a a.eparate operating orgamzatfon dealing with New England problems right at home. Fur¬ ther, I cannot see how the New Haven could be assigned to another System mthout assigning with it the guarantees, traffic re¬ lations and the important facilities which the Pennsylvania provides. I also feel that the tentative outline which in the west would strip the Pennsylvania of the Norfolk & Western traffic, and in the East would, strip it of the New Haven traffic, is not in accord with the aims of the Transportarion Act to keep the Transportation Systems in full vigor. We realize that the officers of the New Haven System have been making à brave struggle to meet conditions in their territory, notwithstanding they must be short of both facilities and equipment, because of their weak financial condition; and are, no doubt, hurt by the improved highways and the use of motor trucks, which must result in making many of the branch lines unprofitable. To the extent of our resources we have always made the New Haven very favorable allow¬ ances out of the through rates, and we assist in supporting the New York Connerting Railroad which is used chiefly for traffic to and from the New Haven Railroad. Until the financial difficulties of this situation are cleared up, and without any knowledge of what the New Haven officers may recommend to the Commission, I feel that the New Haven Road should remain separate under an inde^ pendent management, exchanging traffic freely with the various connecting trunk lines. In addition to its New England railroad connections via New York Gty, the Pminayl- vania System, for its present traffic also joined \vith the Delaware & Hudson Railroad in constructing an improved joint connecting line around Wilkes-Barre to reach the inner New England States and the Boston and Maine, with coal and other traffic. To ac¬ commodate the present traffic and provide for future growth, the Pennsylvania regards it as most essential to have a direct western entrance to the New England roads ■via the Poughkeepsie Bridge route in co-opaation with the Lehigh & New England Railroad. The Pennsylvania System has only a small tonnage of anthracite coal originating on its own lines, and the Lehigh Coal and Naviga¬ tion Company, the owners of the Lehigh and New England Railroad would be greatly benefitted, if its coal could directly reach the markets on the Pennsylvania System. Fur¬ ther the Betiilehem Steel Company is reached via the Lehigh and New England Railroad 7 aad usea a quantity of aoft coal, part of which oripnatca oa the Pennsylirama, and besides has a large tonnage that needs such an additional outlet. This would mean the construction of a short Hnk, or the use of some existing line, from the Susquehanna Valley above Harrisburg to the Schuylkill Valley, and there connect with the Lehigh & New England Railroad which serves the Coal Company's coal lands and also reaches- the Bethlehem Steel Company's development. There is a limit to the future volume erf traffic that can be taken by the New Haven System over its main line, which has.a very heavy passenger traffic, through the New York Gateway, and this additional outlet to New England is UKessary. The Pennsylvania also sends tonnage into New England via the Lehigh & Hudson River Railway, recom¬ mended by Professor Ripl^ td remain as a bridge line. (Pennsylvania and other roads have a joint ownership in this road.) To enable it to reach other roads which give it through traffic for the New Haven via Pough- keepsie Bridge route, Pennsylvania gave its trackage rights from Phillipsburg to Belvidere, N. J., in 1889. In rètum the LeMgh & Hudson River Railway gave the Pennsyl¬ vania reciprocal trackage over its railroad from Belvidere to Greycourt. That road should probably be attached to the carriers ^ving it a larger business than tiie Pennsyl¬ vania provided the latter has a New England connection via the Ldiigh and New England Railroad, which also probably s^uld be con¬ tinued as an open bridge route. Consolidation Requirements of Transpor¬ tation Act My statement has been directed chiefly to the Pennsylvania Railroad System, recog- nking that this System works into and with so many railroads for the movement of traffic to all sections of the Qsuntry but I feel that I should, out of a tong experience, say this alignment and creation of new systems by consolidation, as proposed in the Transporta¬ tion Act, does not deal with many of the financial and other questions that corpora¬ tions usually decide before reojmmending consolidations. Thé proposed grouping of roads and thrir consolidation into large sys¬ tems muât keep plainly in view the special requirements of the Transportation Ät of 1920, which indicate that the System Con¬ solidation Plans, to be prepared and adopted by the Commission, must conform to the followiiig essentials and proceduret— ; ' (1) Preserving competition as fully as' possible. (2) Maintaining' the erisling routes and channels of trade and cqmmerce wherever practicable. ■ (3) Subject to the foregoing paramount requirements, the Systems are to be arranged, so that the cost of transportation as between competitive Systems, and as related to the values of the properties through which the servicès are rendered, shall be the same as far as practicable. " ■ (4) These Systems to employ uniform rates in the movement qf competitive traffic. (5) Under efficient management tihese Sys¬ tems to earn substantially the-same rate of return upon the value of their ■ respective properties. (6) The Commission, after hearings, is to adopt a plan for such consolidations knd publish the same, and at any time thereafter, upon its own motion or upon application,'it can in its judgment change, or modify, the same, to promote the public interest. (7) In harmony with such Plan oonscdida- tions may proceed, by which the property of. two or more railroad carriras, or any part thcrœf, may be consolidated into one corpora¬ tion, but such consolidation must be in har¬ mony with, and in furtherance of, the cam- plete plan of consolidation and must be ap¬ proved by the Commiasion. (8) The bonds and capital stock, at par, of the consolidated corporation shall not exceed the value of the conscflidated properties as. determined by the Commission. (9) Such value shaU be ascertained by the Commission upon the filing of the application for consolidation. (10) A hearing shall be given; theOa-vern- ors of the States in which the consolidated properties are situated shaU be notified, and the Commission may raiter an order approving consolidation, and the same may be effected in accordance therewith, if all the earners t«- whed assent thereto, notwithstanding the laws, decisions or orders of any State authority to the contrary. Compacting 1600 Companies into 22 Systems Let us look at the existing situation to be dealt with. The Act authorizes consolidation info a limited number of systems but does not 8 prescribe the number. Hiat means all of the railroads of the Country are to be dealt with, and according to the Commission's tentative outline and Prof. Ripley's report about twenty systems are formulated. The prment actual situation is the railroads of the United States consist of about 1600, or more, separate railroad operating and lessor cor¬ porations, but in addition there are about five hundred more rather unimportant com¬ panies, and, therefore, I have not œnsidered them as an essaitial part of the Transporta¬ tion System. In practical operation the 1600 or more companies have been reduced pracrically to the 186 Class 1 railroad cnn- paniei, t. e,, operating companies earning over 31,000,000 per annum in gross revenue, and about 14 important Switching and Terminal Cmnpames. These 200 Companies originate over 91 per cent, of the frmght traffic, prob¬ ably a higher percentage of the passenger, mail and express traffic, and earn about 97 per cent of the total railroad operating rev¬ enues of the Country. It would have been no inconsiderable task to have laid down a policy in the Transportation Act by which the 1600 companies would be acquired by the 186 Class I carriers, as a first st^, either by dir«* punffias^ or exchange of securities, but so that about 1400 Companies would have been " disposed of. But consolidation is intended to produce such far reaching results that none except those who have reaHzrf the enormity of the task would be satisfied with even 186 carriers. Therefore, I can state it differently—about 22 recognized railroad systems now earn nearly 85 per cent, of the transportation revenues of the Country. The total operating revenue of Class I Railways and Large Switching and Terminal Companies for year ending Decamber Slst, 1922, were 35,617,252,656, of which 84-7/10% was earned on the Class I Roads embraced in the following systems: 1. Pennsylvania-Norfolk & Western Sys¬ tem. 2. New York CentraL 3. Baltimore & Ohio. 4. Delaware, Lackawanna & Western. 5. ]&ie. 6.-Lehigh Vall^. 7. New Haven—Boston & Maine. 8. Reading—Central Railroad of New Jersey. 9. Atíantic Cfoast Line—^Louisville & NashiriUe. 10. Chesapeake & Ohio—Nickle Plate, etc. 11. Illinois CentraL 12. Southern. 13. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe. 14. Chicago & North Western. 15. Chicagt^ Milwaukee & St Paul. 16. Chicagj^ Rock Island & Pacific. 17. Great Northern—^Northern Pacific— C. B. & Q. IS. St Louis-Sán Frandsco. 19. Soutiiern Pacific. 20. Union Pacific. 21. Missouri Pacific. 22. Missouri, Kansas & Texas. Of course the real test is not the size, but the net return earned on the property invest¬ ment and tlte ability to give a reliable trans¬ portation service. It would be a task to reduce through con¬ solidation, or what might be simpler by merger, absorption, and exchange of securities, or by purchase^ the 186 Oass 1 carriers into the 22 existing railroad Systems. Most of the 186 carriers already either connect with them as feeders or are allied with them through stock ownership, leaser traffic rdations, etc. What 1 hoped for at the time of the passa^ jrf the Transportation Act was an Act broad enough to eliminate restrictive Federal and State Laws and, provided the existing rail- , roads had the necessary earnings, to gradually, by absorption or by purchase of their physical property or of their stocks, compact within the existing Systems the numerous subsid¬ iary corporatíons now allied to the foregoing 22 Systems, and abolish the separate work of accounting, reporting, financing and deal¬ ing with State and Federal bodies as well as with their own respective owners. Then deal with the indepaadait operating Com¬ panies as opportunity ctfFered. Underlying Questions Concerning Con¬ solidated Companies But I suppose that in recommending the present Systems, sudi questions as these, and others concerning the powers of the Consolidated Companies, their valuation, capitalizatioa, the rights of the existing stodc and bondholders, the present and future finandng and management of the new Companies, and taxation including that connected with the fmmation of the new Qnnpanies and the issue of their securities, the question of whether they have the facili- 9 ties and equipment'to co-ordinate and oper¬ ate tiie new Systems assigned to them, have been, or wül be, considered. The present Teatative System outhnc seems to be based largely on freight traffic, but some serious consideration I suppose has beai given to passenger, mail and express traffic, terminals, ekctrificathm and ot^r r«iuisites. It needs no words from'me to say that sufficient earnings and credit wUl be required; nor need I point out.that in the past when the Companies had sufficient earning power and credit, consdidarions,. mergers, leases, etc., were a common occurrence until stopped by restrictive laws and poor earnings. I need hardly say that the present carriers sustain^ many weak branches and œm- panies within their own Systems. Most trf.them can support no more under existing earnings. 1 assume that bdore ffiaal formu¬ lation of these Systems, some ' review will be made of the necessity for continning many weak roads and branches in view of decreased business brought about by new highways and waterways, exhaustion of lumber, coal, agri¬ cultural products, changes of business and industries. The English Plan It may also be of interest to study the English plan of dealing with their transpor¬ tation problems. They recognized that they could not settle , their transportation policy without having a basis for the co-operative understanding and treatment of the Mgh- ways. They, therefore, adopted a policy by which, in substance, Governmental aid was given.to the construction of Improved high¬ ways, but in- return the users of the highways were require to pay additional taxes for their maintenance, widening and improve¬ ment, by the National and local Govern¬ ments. Last year it was reported that ÎK0,000.000 was raised from the motor users for the benefit of highway improvement. Some similar policy might also be applied to our waterways as well as our highways. With regard to their railroads, they have carril out a pretty complete grouping under permissive legislation, re-inforced, however, with the notice that Parliament would make amalgamations mandatory after a certain date. There th^ carried out what I think has many commendable features. The four System Companies purchased the holdings of the stockholders in their subsidiary Com¬ panies, and these Companies were wiped out of existence. This left twenty-seven larger Companies which exchanged their securities for securities trf tte respective System Companies of which they now con¬ stitute a part. Thus they amalgamated 120 Companies into Four System Cbmpanies having approxi¬ mately 2200 miles, 3800 miles, dStXJ miles, and 7500 mil^, but all located in territories not more than six hunted nûles long by about 200 milles wide. However, ninety- three unimportant enterprises, such as jointly owned railroads, light railways, narrow gauge lines, electric urban and subtrrban railroads, and similar undertakings, were left for future • action. The aggr^te road mileage of the Four System Companies was only 20,ttX) miles, against 250,000 miles in the United States. Their total track and siding mileage is 50,000 miles as against 400,000 in the United States. Thar freight rates are double the average ton mile rates allowed the rail¬ roads of the United States, even after deduct¬ ing from the British rates the cost of collec¬ tion or delivery of the traffic. Their average frright car load is tons œmpared with over 27 tons in the Unit«l States. However, we may well inquire how it was possible to compose so many different inter¬ este and work the important problem to a conclusion with the approval of the Govern¬ mental Authorities, the public and tiie owners. The chief reasons are that the Government made a genmous settlement for the War period to place the roads in the best physical and finandal condition. They also loaned capital to tite railroad ormpanies at moderate interest rates to give them a start on a normal basis. Most of the ormpanies had increased their dividends since the War and none had reduced tiiem. They are allowed by the consolidation law to fix rates and wages, subject to review by the Govern¬ mental Tribunals, that will continue the net financial returns of .1913, in addition to interest on the new capital spent since that year. In addition, the British Government^ relieved them of all restrictive laws and taxes covering the issue' and exchange of securities, or the purchase of stocks of subsidiary com¬ panies. The British public wanted this consolida¬ tion carried out, and realized it could not be carried out unless financially sound and fair to the owners. The public in Great Britain 10 had the option of continuing higher rates to produce such a result, or to pay Increased taxes to support the railroads. They said, in substance,, we prefer to pay the rates fixed by the railroads for they can and will be reduced, rather than to support the rail¬ roads through taxes which are rarely reduced. CONCLUSION (1) That the real test of successful con¬ solidation Is that efficiency and economy will be Increased; that the Initiative of manage¬ ment and operation will be preserved; and above all that the net earnings will be suffi¬ cient In normal years to earn a fair return on the property Investment, so that at all times sound credit may be maintained to provide present and future adequate trans¬ portation facilities, and keep the railroad transportation service In full vigor. (2) That judged by what the Pennsyl¬ vania Railroad System has gradually accom¬ plished In compacting Its System from six hundred Companies to about seventy Trans¬ portation Companies, consolidation can be accomplished under permissive consolidation laws, provided the carriers are allowed to earn the financial basis to undertake con¬ solidation. A similar proof Is afforded by the record of thousands of railroad cprpora- tlons that have been eliminated In a twenty year period by other railroads. (3) That in considering consolidation and the creation of new Consolidated Corpora¬ tions, It Is well to keep in mind that we have at present about twenty-two chief railroad systems which could be compacted so as to eliminate many unnecessary corporations. That the railroads are owned by the public and their institutions; are regarded all over the World as conservatively capitalized com¬ pared with their real value; are most effi¬ ciently operated and their rates lower than in any other civilized Country. That they have been the main Instruments for the settling and developing the entire Country; and notwithstanding the small return of less than 4 per cent, on the property invest¬ ment in the last fifteen years, their efficiency and vigor should be a matter of National satisfaction. That they could have done far more with larger earnings, and better credit, is beyond.all question. (4) That with liberal laws, and with fair returns on their property investment, they can prove one of the most Important Instru¬ ments In developing the trade and commerce of the Country and promoting Its progress; and that they will require no special financial aid from the Government beyond the freedom given to other corporations, but under reason¬ able regulation, to preserve full vigor and initiative of management and operation. (5) The Pennsylvania System as It exists today Is one of the most Important of these carriers, and. has been developed to meet the requirements of trade and commerce, and to exchange traffic with most of the large systems In the Country; and Its mainte¬ nance In Its practical Integrity will tend to maintain and preserve the competition designed by the Transportation Act. That for such purpose Its traffic exchange rela¬ tions with the New Haven System and New England generally, should be preserved; and equally Important to Its operating and financial stability and public service. Is the maintenance of Its relations with the Norfolk & Western Railway. The holding of a large stock ownership In that Company by the Pennsylvania, would naturally tend to facili¬ tate consolidation between It and the Penn¬ sylvania System, and this Important point should not be overlooked, as Prof. Ripley points out the purpose mainly sought to be subserved by the grouping, so as to best serve the public. Is to bring about voluntary consolidations by the Companies affected. Further, the separation of these traffic rela¬ tions and properties from the Pennsylvania group would result in giving It a property Investment return below many of the other groups tentatively outlined, and thereby would not comply with one of the main requirements of the Transportation Act. Prof. Ripley significantly points out that:— "Quite Irrespective of size, the ulti¬ mate financial test of the feasibility ■ of the 21 systems herein proposed Is applied by the subjoined table. The significant feature Is the right-hand column, bringing out the net operating Income In percentage of Investment. * * * The measure of success, there¬ fore, is the relative approximation of the earning capacity of each system to that figure." Il SupplemenM Statement of Samuel Rea, President of the Penn¬ sylvania Railroad System, before" the interstate Commerce Commission, at Philadelphia, in the matter of the Consolida¬ tion of the Railway Properties of the United States into a limited muaber of Systems. June, 1923. (No. 12964) T DESIRE to supplement my statem^t re- specting RaUroad Consolidation, which was made before the Interstate Commerce Com¬ mission at the public hearing held in the City of Washington, May 16th, 1923, as foUowsí-^ Appreciating how earnestly the Interstate Commerce Commission is endeavoring to comply with that part of the Transportation Act of 1920, requiring it to prepare and adopt as soon as practicable a plan for the consoli¬ dation of the railway properties of the conti¬ nental United Stat» into a hmited number of systems, and realizing the special duty assigned to it by Law, which may not require it to deal with all phases of consolidation at this lime, and wWch, nevertheless, the Acs does not fully or dearly deal with, may I direct the Commission's atteaticm espedally to page 29 of my statement respecting con¬ solidation made at the recent hearing before that body. It refers to the underlying ques¬ tions concerning the proposed consolidated companies and are questions that railroad companies desiring to consolidate, in accord¬ ance with the Transportation Act, will have to answer to their own stocdc and bcmd holders, to trustees and bankers and to savings banks ' and insurance companies, etc., who purchase or hold railrmd secmritim under restrictions im¬ posed by Law as to returns earned thereon and mortgage lien requirements, and finally to the Commission, before consolidations can proceed. They constitute some of the practical problems which the railroads must face when they ccane to carry out any plan of system consolidaticm under the Transportation Act^ in addition to other features referred to in the statement I made to the Commission at the public hearing. For instance^ let us at the outset agree that two or more of the larger companies desire to apply for authority to consolidate under the Transportation Act. Is the new consolidated system company omtemplated in their appli¬ cation required to be a Federal corporation or a State corporation? How oan appKcation be made by the com¬ panies for oonsolidation unless the value oF the consolidated property has been first ascer¬ tained, yet the Act docs not authorize valua¬ tion to be ascertained -until application has been filed? Without such valuation how can the companies determine how much stock and bonds can be issued? This is a most impon- tant essential of every consolidation. The Act states that the bonds and capital stock at par of the consolidated company shall not etceed the value as determined by the Cont-, mission. Think of what this final valuation means. The present railroad valuation has been under way £sr about ten years and seems far from a conclusion, at least so far as fixing a purchase or condemnation value, or a value for re-capitalization purposes to effect a consoUdation. The system consolidation plans can provide that part of the properly of one or more rail¬ road carriers may, in furtherance of the plans of consolidation, be assigned to another system. How are the rights or equities of the present bond and stock holders to be determined? What is to be the effect on security values while this is going on? If part of a railroad is given to another con- sdidated system, or if a system with which traffic relations now exist is attached ■ to. another competing system, will the system to which it is assigned take over the responsi¬ bilities and guarantees that form part of such relation, and also take over the physical facili¬ ties now jointly used, such as yards, piers and floating equipment, and compensate the present owners? This wiU also greatly affect existing values and commercial relations. . Are the constituent systems to be earning the 5^ per cent, return allowed by the Trans¬ portation Act, or some better self-sustaining return, before consolidation takes effect? Otherwise, how can a strong road, without any guarantee from the Government, get the consent of its bond and stock holders to con¬ solidate with weak roads, or to ^ve up. 12 voluntarily, and at its own risk, part of its present property, traffic, or earnings to a weak road to make it strong? In agreeing upon the capital to be issued by a consolidated system, shall the capitalization of the weak road, to be included therein, be based upon earnings or upon physical value, and in the latter case is the cost of property or valuation of property constructed through a country with heavy grades, or over a cir¬ cuitous route, to be entitled to the same value, in the consolidated company, as that of a railroad constructed over the most economic route? Will the assignment of a weak road to a strong road in practice mean that, although the weak road has heavier grades or a longer route, the strong road will be forced to route traffic over the weak line to make it self- sustaining, and that the public will be willing to pay the necessary rates to sustain the weak road? It is clear that while the weak road may be very essential to a certain part of the Country, it is not at all so necessary to the Country as a whole, compared with a main low grade line over which through, as well as local, traffic in great volume is carried, and from a transportation service standpoint sec¬ tions of the weak road might be abandoned and the traffic moved over the most direct route and the lower grades. If the weak road should be abandoned in whole or in part, or its capitalization reduced because of poor earnings, why not do so before consolidation? Even when the consolidated company has been formed, the Commission may, at any time thereafter, either on application or upon its own motion, change or modify the same. (See Section 5, paragraph S.) Does this really mean what it says, that is, a con¬ solidation once affected might be modified or changed by the Commission? If so, it will not be possible to finance a consolidated company subject to such risks of changing policies. The consolidated company will mean the formation of a new system corporation and, therefore, will require extensive negotiations to ascertain on what basis the liens of the ex¬ isting respective mortgages, contracts, lease¬ holds, and guaranteed stocks and bonds will be dealt with, and the relative order of their precedence, both as to principal and interest, or fixed rentals. It will be noted that the Act requires that the systems are to be so arranged that the cost of transportation as between competitive systems, and as related to the values of the properties through which the services are rendered, shall be the same, as far as practi¬ cable. There is no means indicated by which that relation shall be preserved as against changes in agriculture, manufacturing centers, mining or population, or even against changes ill the relative operating efficiency and man¬ agement, or the routing of traffic by the shippers. The new consolidated system company, if subject to State laws, must be prepared to pay the fees required by the State in connec¬ tion with its formation and the authorization of stock to be issued in exchange for the outstanding stock of the constituent com¬ panies. Just take two of these provisions and apply them to a system equal to the Pennsylvania Railroad System, if consoli¬ dated into one system corporation, valued at say 32,500,000,000., which would be capitalized in 31,250,000,000. stock and 31,250,000,000. ■ bonds. There is a Federal tax on the original issues of securities of 50 cents for each 31,000. par value, which would be equal to 31,250,000. In some of the States through which it passes there is a tax equal to 0.1 per cent, on the par value of the authorized capital stock, which, if carried out by all the respective States, would amount to 31,250,000. in each State, for we may assume that the States will find means of levying these taxes. If the new company is to be a corporation only of the State of Pennsylvania, there is the Bonus Tax in that State of one-third of one per cent, on capital stock, and this would amount to about 34,167,0(X). on the original issue if applied to this consolidated corporation. Think of the large additional cost of engraving bonds and stock certificates, and the cost of regis¬ tration, record of ownership, etc. Think of the effect on market values while all this is going on, and while all of the foregoing problems of such great magnitude are pro¬ ceeding. The reason for directing attention to these prospective, but practical, problems is in the hope that the Commission, in outlining the consolidated systems to Congress, will also point out the necessity of having a practical basis upon which the consolidations can be carried out. For that reason reference has been made to the existing big systems into which ' the other smaller connecting lines 13 might be merged, or by which they could be purchased and absorbed, and thereby avoid the necessity and expense in creating new consolidated system companies as far as possible. In my statement respecting consolidation I referred to the English Grouping Plan, which has been carried into effect but, as yet, has had too short an experience to be called successful. Nevertheless, the chief reasons why the English Grouping Plan was effected were:— 1. The companies were put on a self- sustaining basis; 2. The larger Amalgamated, or Group, Companies purchased the securities of their smaller subsidiary roads, and exchanged the securities of the- larger connecting roads for those of the Group Railroad Companies into which these larger Companies were consolidated; and 3. Taxes in connection with the issue, conversion or exchange of securities to con¬ stitute the new Group Companies were remitted. • If, in the United States, we must form new consolidated system companies, it will take a long time to do so unless some, if not all, of the foregoing basic questions, and the heavy taxation, are dealt with in advance by ample legislative authority. It may be said that this frank expression on the situation means consideration of mandatory consolidation. My reply would be that under mandatory consolidation the same problems would have to be faced. First and foremost the existing companies must have a proper earning and credit basis to proceed with system consolidations; other¬ wise the system consolidation plan will be largely theoretical and futile The question might well be asked what remedy have I to suggest to meet the various situations dealt with in this statement.? My general conclusion is that railroad consoli¬ dation ought to be encouraged to eliminate unnecessary corporations. Therefore, if there is any doubt as to the present provisions of the Transportation Act regarding the power of the existing railroad companies to eliminate unnecessary existing railroad corporations, and to do it free from the restrictions of the Anti-Trust Laws or other restrictive legisla¬ tion, Federal or State, then a new consoli¬ dation act should be passed which would, in substance, enable any existing operating railroad system to absorb, merge or con¬ solidate with and into itself, upon terms to be approved by the Interstate Commerce Commission, all of the railroad companies which at present form a part of its system, or are allied with it through stock ownership, lease, traffic relations, etc. I had believed the Transportation Act did not prevent this but, in practice, it has. The provisions of the Act preventing consolidation referred only to large systems, especially competitive sys¬ tems, which might have disarranged com¬ merce, and to prevent that the Act required the preparation of the consolidated system plan on which the Interstate Commerce Commission is now engaged. I would also extend these broad powers to such other railroads as the Interstate Commerce Com¬ mission might approve, because of their relation as feeders or connecting lines of the acquiring railroad, and as a proper develop¬ ment of the railroad system of the acquiring company to more properly serve the public and strengthen the credit of the carrier. In other words, the practical result at which I would aim would be to reduce the 1600 or more separate railroad operating and lessor corporations that form an essential part of the continental transportation sys¬ tem of the United States into the 186 Class I railroad companies and the 14 important switching and terminal companies. Then the next step would be to reduce the 186 Class I carriers to a relatively small number of systems, as about 22 recognized railroad systems now earn 85 per cent, of the trans¬ portation revenues of the Country. This I pointed out in my statement to the Inter¬ state Commerce Commission at the hearing held in Washington in May, 1923. My further belief is that given the proper amount of earnings to enable these systems to under¬ take consolidations or mergers on a large scale, mandatory consolidation provisions are unnecessary. For instance, I would permit this to be done in different ways: (1) I would permit consolidation of one or more of these companies in which new corporations would be created, and re-issue the securities in whole or part as might be required. (2) I would permit it to be done by merger or absorption, i. e. merger by which the 14 parent or system company would merge into itself other railroad corporations by issuing its own securities for the whole or any part" of any of the existing securities of the cor¬ poration to be merged. Further, I would permit the adoption of any of the existing securities of either the merging company or the merged companies and allow them to remain outstanding, such as their bonds and also guaranteed stock or un-guaranteed stock. In this case, of course, a proper price or value would have to be agreed upon, subject to the Commission's approval. This would be a matter of negotiation. Under the heading of merger I would also permit the absorption by the system company of any subsidiaries of which it already held either the entire stock, or in which it held the larger part and give it power to acquire the balance. This would apply to leased roads as well as separately operated companies in the system. (3) I would authorize the acquisition by the system or parent company by deed of conveyance, or other appropriate instrument of transfer, of the whole or any part of any other railroad property and franchises of which the Commission might approve, so that it could practically be carried out like a real estate purchase and conveyance. Merger, absorption, or outright purchase gives an opportunity to avoid many questions and delays. respecting outstanding stock or bond issues of either the vendor company or vendee company. The point at which I would aim is liberal powers for any company with the necessary credit to acquire, in every possible way, any existing smaller railroad corporations, and in doing so avoid heavy taxes and extensive changes, issues and transfers of stocks, bonds and other securities. There is one element in regard to these acquisitions and mergers that must be guarded against, and that is many of them are concluded on the basis of cancelling the existing stocks and taking over the prop¬ erties subject to the existing bonds. The result of that process with many of the exist¬ ing railroad systems is to reduce J^he out¬ standing stock and correspondingly 'increase the proportion of capitalization represented by outstanding bonds. The widest latitude should, therefore, be given to the railroad com¬ panies and the Commission to deal with such situations. In these consolidations and mergers every system may have to retain several rather large corporations as component parts of the System for some years until the whole ques¬ tion of earnings and credit has been placed in the condition whereby one system company can do all the financing for the system and be free of restrictions as to the amount of stock or bonds it can issue. None of these systems ought to have its capitalization represented by bonded debt or other fixed obligations in excess of some proportion like three times the par value of its outstanding stock; or that will require to pay its fixed charges too great a proportion of its net railway operating in¬ come and the income from its investments, which together constitute its gross income, in normal years. There must be a fair amount left to pay reasonable dividends. Otherwise, without any guarantee from the Government or any other source, the credit of the system becomes too weak to finance its needs, at reasonable interest rates, and common stock cannot be sold on any basis. Other questions such as permitting rail¬ road companies to issue and sell or exchange railroad stocks for less than par, which is the right they have with respect to bonds, should be embodied in the law. I am greatly im¬ pressed with the English Plan already referred to as a practical method to insure progress. 0-