BEFORE THE INIERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION,
IN THE MATTER OF
THE TRANSPORTATION OF SALT FROM
HUTCHINSON, KANS,
ORDER AND TESTIMONY.
WASHINGTON I
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.
1905.
.. .. .'>i^í£:5Í.-.yk4¥: <
BEFORE THE INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION.
IN THE MATTER OF
THE TRANSPORTATION OF SALT FROM
HUTCHINSON, KANS.
Hearing at Hutchinson, Kans., December 5, 1903.
Present: COMMISSIONER CHARLES A. PROUTY.
APPEARANCES :
Mr, J. H. RICHARDS, Genero! Attorney,
Missouri Pocific Railway Company,
Mr. H. WHITESIDE, Counsel,
Atchison, Topefca and Santa Fe Railway Company.
Mr. F. L. MARTIN, Counsel,
Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railway Company.
Mr. JOHN T. MARCHAND]
and i For the Commission.
Mr. W. G. FAIRCHILDS, )
f
WASHINGTON:
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.
1905.
IUDEX.
l'âge.
J. C. Baddeley 6,90
Frank Vincent ! 7
T. G. Elbiiiy SO
W. B. Biddle .SI
■W. G Stith 40
3. F. Holden — 4(5
Emerson Car^ 49
B. B. Barton (51
Samuel Matthmva (5(5
E. S. Moore 70
W. Ii. Moore 74
3. L. Dick : 77
0. A. Walker 78
Joy Morton 79
Hearing at Cbicago, III. :
Mark Morton S 94
W. H. Burnes 98
(3)
BEFORE THE INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION.
At a general session of the Interstate Commerce Commission, held
at its office in Washington, D. C., on the 21st day of November, A. D.
1903. Present: Hon. Alartin A. Knapp, chairman; Hon. Judson C.
Clements, Hon. James D. Yeomans, Hon. Charles A. Prouty, Hon.
Joseph W. Fifer, Commissioners.
IK THE MATTES OF THE TKANSPOSTATIOH OF SAIT FEOM HTTTCHINSON, KAKS-
Ordered: That a proceeding of inquiry and investigation into
the management of the business of common carriers by railroad
engaged in the transportation of salt from Hutchinson, in the State
of Kansas, to points in other States and Territories of the United
States, and the manner and method in Avhich the same is conducted
with reference to the rates and practices of said carriers in the trans¬
portation of salt as aforesaid, be, and is hereby, instituted, and that
said proceeding is hereby set down for hearing at the county court
rooms, in the city of Hutchinson, Kans., on the 5th day of December,
1903," at 9 o'clock in the forenoon of that day.
■Hutchinson, Kans., December 5, 1903—9 a. m.
Commissioner Prouty. Gentlemen, the Commission is here this
morning to conduct an inquiry into the methods and practices of car¬
riers engaged in the transportation of salt from Hutchinson, Kans.
Air. Alarchand will conduct the inquiry on behalf of the Commission.
Are you ready, Mr. Alarchand ?
Air. AIarciiand. Yes, sir. Air. W. G. Fairchild, of the Keno
County bar, your honor, will apjiear for the independent producers
of salt.
Commissioner Prouty. I shall be glad, of course, to have Air. Fair-
child appear, and I may say that in this inquiry ive shall be glad to
have anybody appearj either on behalf of the railroad companies or
on behalf of the public. What we desire, of course, is simply to get
at all the facts in the case.
Air. AIartin. I should like to ask, your honor, on behalf of some
witnesses- whom I represent here, whether or not this is upon com¬
plaint of the Commission.
Commissioner Prouty. This is not a formal complaint of the Com¬
mission. The Commission conducts two kinds of proceedings. One
proceeding is instituted by itself, on its own motion, into the methods
and practices of railroad companies. Another inquiry is by formal
complaint made and signed by some shipper or company specifying
charges, which the company is supposed to answer. This is an
informal inquiry by the Commission, based upon informal complaint
(5)
G
to tlio Commission. Our attention was called to the fact that these
joint tariffs were filed ; an investigation, apparently informal, showed
that there ought to be some furtlier investigation, and the investiga¬
tion has been assigned for that reason.
!Mr. !Mautik. Some of the witnesses here are employees of railroad
comiianies and also of salt companies, and some of the salt companies
have hired special counsel-;—
(Here ^Ir. ilartin spoke so low that it was impossible to catch and
record the few words which followed.)
It may be somewhat analogous to a prosecution on account of pri¬
vate counsel being employed by competitive manufacturers j and on
behalf of these witnesses who are hei'e as emploj'ees, or any persons
engaged in business in this country, we think that if they have inde¬
pendent testimony the testimony respecting the local corporations
here ought to be put in first. That is, I speak particularly with refer¬
ence to the employees of the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company.
Commissioner Proutv. I do not know anything about what facts
will be developed by the inquiry. I do not know what witnesses ^Mr.
^Marchand proposes to call. He was simply sent out here and in¬
structed, in the first place, to make a preliminary investigation, which
he did. From his report we thought there ought to be further inves¬
tigation, and this inquiry was set down for that purpose. Mr.
ilarchand has been I'equested to come here and subpoena what wit¬
nesses he thinks necessaiy. I do not know the employment of the
Avitnesses. As he calls anv particular Avitness you can make any point
j'oii desire.
!Mr. ^Marchand, jmu may jiroceed.
J. C. Baddeley, having been duly sworn, testified as foIIoavs :
Mr. ^Marchand. Your initials are J. C., are they not, Mr. Badde¬
ley?
Mr. Baddeley. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^Marchand. AMiere do you reside ?
Mr. Baddeley. Here in Hutchinson.
Mr. Marchand. AAliat is your occupation ?
ilr. Baddeley. I am in the salt business.
Mr. ^Marchand. You are in the salt business?
Mr. Baddeley. Yes, sir.
jMr. AIarciiand. Are you connected with any company located at
Hutchinson ?
ilr. Baddelea*. Yes, sir.
ilr. Marchand. AVhat is your position with that company, and
Avhat is the name of the company ?
Mr. Baddeley. I am with the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver
Railroad Company.
Jlr. JMarchand. Are you connected with any salt company ?
Mr. Baddeley. I work for a salt company.
Mr. IMaechand. MTiat is the name of that salt company ?
JMr. Baddeley. The Hutchinson, Ivans., Salt Company.
Mr. Marchand. Is there an emijloyee with the Hutchinson, Ivans.,
Salt Company by the name of Vincent—Frank ATncent ?
JMr. Baddeley. Yes, sir.
JMr. Marchand. Are you subordinate to Mr. ATncent ?
Mr. Baddeu!?. Yea,, sir. ■
Mr. Marchand. Tell me .what your position is with thé salt com-
Baddecet. Wdl, sir, I am a clerk; I am aœîstant to Mr, Vin¬
cent.
klr. Marchand. You kœp the books?
Mr. Baddehet. Ko, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Kow, Mr. Baddeley, state to the Commission
whether the agents of the -rarious linœ entering Hutóhinson malee
report to Mr. Vincent, or to anyone in your office, with i^pect to the
tonnage of salt shipped out over the various lines, other than by the
Hutcmnson, Kans., Salt Company.
Mr. Baddeo!*. sir.
Mr. ÄIarchand. They do not ?
Mr. Baddeley. No, sir ; not that I know of.
Mr. Marchand. Who is the custodian of the* racords of the amount
of salt shipped by the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company?
Mr. Baddeley. Wdil, I should be as much as anyone.
klr. Marchand. Yoij have thoœ records under your charge I
Mr. Baddeley. Y©s, sir.
kfr. Marchand. Can you tell the Commission how much salt you
have diipped in bulk out of Hutchinœn during the last twelve
months?
Mr. Baddeley. No; .1 can not.
Mr. Marchand. Can you tell how much you have shipped in bar¬
rels?
Mr. Baddeley. No; I can not.
Mr. Marchand. You could inform yourself, could you not ?
kfr. Baddeïjey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Now, I .should like you to do so, and come back
within the next two hours—some time in the forenoon.
Commissiraier Prouty. How long will'lt take you to do that?
Mr. Baddeley. I should think I could do it in that time very Avell.
Commissioner Prouty. Well, then you can do so.
That is all unless someliody else desires to ask Mr. Baddeley some
questions at this time.
Witness excused. ■
Commissioner PraauTY. Whom will you call nest, Mr. klardiandl
Mr. Marchand. Mr. Vincent.
Frank Vincent, having been duly sworn, testified as follows :
klr. Marchand. State your name and place of residence.
Mr. Vincent. My name is Frank Vincent; I reside at Ilutdiinson,
Kans.
Mr. Marchand. Are you a director in the Hutchinson and Arkan¬
sas River Railroad Company ?
Mr. Vincent. I am; yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand, Wlíen was that company incoiporatod ? '
Mr, Vincent. In July, 1902.
Mr. Marchand. Can you toll the Commission who the incoriiorators
of that rempany were!
Mr. Martin. We can furni.sh jy^ou the diartcr.
Mr. Vincent. I do not remember all of them.
8
Comniisaioncr Pnourr. I expect that would be the proper thing to
have done some time, Älr. IMarchand.
Jlr. ^Iasciiand. I will pass over that for the present.
Commissioner Phoutt. If he knows, he may state who the incori"
porators were.. _ _ *
Älr. ViKCEÂT. I was one; Mr. J. C. Baddeloy and Mr. G. Phillips
were tlie reEudcnt incorporators in the State. Jdr. Tracy was an in¬
corporator, but I forget the others.
Sir. Mahciiakd. Mr. R. W. Barnes; was he an incorporator! .
Mr. ViKCEXT. I think so. ■ _ _
Mr. IMAncJiAXD. Was Mr. Arthur Griffin an incorporator!
Älr. Vjxcext. Well, I would not be sure.
Mr. ^Iabciiaxd. Was there a man by the name of W. Y. Morgan
an incorporator?
Mr. VixcEXT. He vas not; no, sir. To make that clear, I think
IMr. iMorgan
Air. JIartix. The incorporators are shown right in the charter
itself. Mr. Vincent might refresh his memory from the charter.
¡Mr. !Makchaxd. Mr. Vincent, state to the Commission what the
paper is that I hand you.
[Charter of the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Com¬
pany handed to Sir. Vincent.]
Jlr. VixcEXT. This is the charter of the Hutchinson and Arkansas
River Railroad Coi^any.
Mr. !Mabciiaxd. Hoes that purport to be a certified copy of the
charter !
]Mr. VixcEXT. This is the certificate. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marcii.vxd. That is a cop}' of the cliarter of the Hutchinson
and Arkansas River Railroad Company t
ISIr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Mr. I^IabcilaxO. From a i^erusal of that paper, Mr. Vincent, state
to the Commission who the incorporators were.
Mr. VixcBXT (reading). "Joseph P. Traty, R. W.-Barnes, Arthur
Griffin, Frederick C. Eckman, J. C. Baddelev, Frank Vincent, and
G. Phillips.»
]Mr. Mabciiaxd. Tlien there were seven incorporators?
Mr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir ; I believe so. . '
Mr. Marciiaxd. Will you please state the names of the present
directors?
Mr. VixcEXT. I can state them, I think, part of them.
Commissioner Proutv. Does this corporation keep records?
Mr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prodtv. Vliere are they kept^in the State of Kan¬
sas, or somewhere dse?
Mr. VixcBXT. I think the,records are mostly in Chicago.
Commiaaioner Pboutv. Does the law of Kansas require that , the
secretary of a corporation shall live in the State—^that the record
shall be kept in the State ?
kir. VixcEXT. No, sir. I think it requires an assistant secretary.
I think I can state the directors. Mr. Joy Morton, Frank Vincent,
J. G Baddeley, G. PhUlips, J. P. Tracy, Mart Morton, and Danid
Peterkin.
Mr. ÄIahchaxd. Mr. Vincent, state to the Commission what Mr.
Phillips'a occupation is.
9
Mr. VixcENT. Älr. Phillips's occupation is paymaster, and he does
some bookkeeping for the Hutchinson (Kans.) Salt ComjDany.*
Mr. Marchand. And also what Mr. Joseph P. Tracy's occupation is.
Mr. Vincent. I could not tell you.
]\Ir. Marchand. VTiere does he reside ?
Mr. Vincent. In Chicago.
Mr. Marchand. Do you loiow whether he was an employee of the
Morton Salt Company or the Hutchinson ?
Mr. Vincent. He is not an employee of the Hutchinson Salt Com¬
pany.
Mr. Marchand. VTiere does Sir. Peterkin reside?
Sir. Vincent. In Chicago. . .
Sir. SHrchand. VJiat is his occupation ?
Sir. S^iNCENT. SVell, sir, I really do not. know that.
Sir. SIarchand. Is he connected Avith Sir. Slorton's office ?
Sir. Vincent. I think so.
Sir. SIarchand. Don't you know he is private secretar}' to Sir.
Slorton ?
Sir. S^iNCENT. I do not know, sir.
Sir. SIarchand. You never heard it?
Sir. Vincent. I don't knoiv that I have heard it.
Sir. SIarchand. Have you ever been in Sir. Slorton's office ?
Sir. S^iNCENT. Yes, sir.
Sir. SIarchand. Have you ever seen him there ?
Sir. STncent. Yes, sir.
Sir. SIarchand. • He has a desk there?
Sir. Vincent. I have seen him sitting at a desk.
Sir. SIarchand. He is usually there Avhen you call on Sir. Slorton,
is he not?
Sir. Vincent. SVell, I would say usually; yes, sir; although I
have called when he was not in.
Sir. SIarchand. Is Sir. Slark Slorton connected Avith the Hutch¬
inson, Kans., Salt Company?
Sir. Vincent. Yes, sir; I think so.
Sir. SIarchand. In Avhat capacity?
Sir. Vincent. Sly recollection is that he is treasurer.
Sir. SIarchand. SVhat is Sir. Joy Slorton's position Avith the
Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company?
Sir. Vincent. He is president.
Sir. SIarchand. Noav, Sir. Vincent, state Avhat the caiiital stock
of the Hutchinson and Arkansas Pi ver Railroad Company is.
Sir. SIartin. That is shoAvn by the charter. .
Sir. Vincent, Eighty thousand dollars.
Sir. SIarchand. Divided into hoAV many shares?
Sir. Vincent. Eight hundred shares at $100 each.
Sir. SIarchand. Of Avhich Sir. J. P. Tracy OAvns hoAv miich or
owned at the time of the making of that charter?
Sir. Vincent. Seven hundred and ninety-four shares.
Sir. SIarchand. That left one share apiece for the other directors?
Sir. Vincent. It did; yes, sir.
Sir. SIarchand. Did you ever attend a meeting of the board of
directors of this railroad company?
Mr. ViNCXNT. Yes, sir.
Mr. SIarchand. Where?
10
sir. viîïcext. A meeting was held in my office here in the city of
Hutchinson.
'Sir, SlAncirASD. Wlien?
Sir. ViKCEXT. To the best of my i-ecollection it was in October,
Í902.
Sir, SlAnciiAxi). "Who made the survey for this road?
Sir. S''ixcEXT. For Avhich road?
Sir. SIaqciiaxd. The Ilutdiinson and Arkansas River Railroad.
Sir. S''ixcEXT. Hie first survey was made by Sir. Elbury, county
surveyor in this county.
Sir. SlAncir.axd. SVho made the next survey?
Sir. VixcEXT. Sir. James.
Sir. SIarchaxd. SS'ho is in possession of the prints and maps?
Sir. Yixcext. I am. . .
Sir. SlARCirAXi). How much of that road is constructed, Sir.
Vincent?
Sir. S'^ixcEXT. Tliei'e is not any of that part of the road con¬
structed but Sir, Elbury's survey.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Do you own any rolling stock?
" ' ir.
Arkansas River Railroad?
Sir, S^'ixcEXT. The tracks we own are south of the Arkansas River,
nearly a mile of track running into one of our largest salt plants,
from whidi shipments are made. The Hutchinson and Arlransas
River Railroad Company also owns about 4 acres of land at the
Junction of the Slissouri Padfio and the Santa Fe.
Sir. SIarchaxd. In what (»unty is that located?
Sir. S^ixcEXT. In Reno County.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Is that deed on record?
Sir. VixcEXT. It is not.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Have you paid taxís on the Hutchinson and
Arkanmis River Railroad m this county?
Sir. VixcEXT. I do not know.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Isn't it a fact that you paid taxes on certain lots
nearly opposite, I think^ the sugar mills, which are recorded in your
name, and took receipts in the name of the Hutchinson and Arlransas
River Railroad Company, within the last few days ? ;
Sir. VixcEXT. It may possibly be. I instructed one of my men
to pay the taxes.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Did you instruct him to take the receipts in the
name of the railroad, company?
Sir, S^'ixcEXT. I think so.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Does tlie railroad company own there lots?
Sir. VixcEXT. They do.
Sir. SIarchaxd. They furnished the money with wMcli they were
purchased?
Sir. VixcEXT. They did. SVe also have a warranty deed for the
lots.
Sir. SIarchaxd. Who has?
Sir. ViKCÉXT. The Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Com¬
pany.
sir. SIajkjhaxd. Is thàt dred recorfed?
Sir. VixcEXT. No, sir.
termini of the Hntchinson and
11
•
Commissionfflr Photjtt. When was that dœd exeaitedl
Mr. Vetcestt. In the fore part of July_ last. I could explain to the
court how it was that it is not recorded, if you so desire.
Commissioner Pœjurr. IVeU, you may tell.
Mr. Vencext. I was instructed to buy terminal grounds and right
of way in whieb to bring in the line we were bmlding for the St.
Louis and San Francisco road. Our people had agreed, and so
instructed me, that we dared not ask the city or counfy for any sub¬
sidy and that we woïdd not ads: them ïor right of way, but go
ahead and buy the right of way. In order to do that I had to buy it
in my own name. I didnt want the people who owned the property
to Imow anytliing about it. I didn't want thran to understand that
it was a railroad company; hence I bought the property in different
indi-víduals' names, and it was afterwams deeded to me. The deed
to me was put on record,.and I think the identical deed was put on
record in the register's office in this county. I made a quitclaim deed
to the railroad {»mpany.
Commissioner Pbouty. The railroad company furnished the money
with which the lots were paid fort
Mr. VraoEXT. Yi^, sir.
Mr. jMaechaxd. You receive a salary from the railroad company?
Mr. Vincent. I do not.
Mr. hiAEcnAXD. Did you ever state to any of the operators here in
Hutchinson that you did ?
Mr. Vincent. Äo, sir; I do not tlùnk so.
Mr. Maechand. Did you ever make a statement of tliat kind to
anyone?
klr. ViNCBNT. Xo, sir. "
3ir. Maechand. You don't r¿nember making that statement to a
newspaper man?
Älr. Vincent. No, sir, I am satisfied I never did.
Mr. ÎIaechand. Now, Mr. Vincent, please state to the Commission
the name and capacitif of the various plants owned by Üie Hutchin¬
son, Kans., Salt Company?
Mr. Vincent. I understand you want the amount they were rated
at or the rimning capacity?
Mr. Maechand. State whether they are in operation, beginning
with the 3tforton plant.
Mr. Vincent, The Morton plant is our largest plant. It has a
capacity—or we make—about 32,000 barrels per montli, the real ca¬
pacity of the Morton plant.
The lîiverside plant—^we probably make, when running, 500 barrels
a month—between 40Ô and 500 barrels per month.
Mr. IMaecuiand. A day or a month?
Mr. Vincent. I mean per day.
Commissioner Pecuty. The Morton plant would be about a thou¬
sand barrels a day!
Mr. Vincent. Between 1,100 and 1,200.
Mr. Maechand. And the Eiverside plant 500 barrels?
Mr. Vincent. About.
Mr. Maechand. Now, how about the New York!
Mr. Vincent. When we speak of the Riverside it includes the New
York.
12
]\rr. Marchäxi). You mean that the Híverside and the Xew York
toffether have a capacity of 500 barrels a day ?
ilr. ViNcasKT. Tnat is about wliat we make at those plants when we
run them. ;
]\Ir. Marchand. Are they in operation now—the ISIorton, the River-
idde, and the Xew York?
Älr. Yincent. The Älortou plant is. I am not positive as to
whether they are running.at the Riverside or not.
Älr. ^Marchand. Some of them are running?
Mr, Yincent. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. Marchand. Have you a plant known as the Western plant?
Mr. Yincent. We have.
Mr. Marchand. Is that in operation f
jMr. Yincent. Partly so.
Mr. Marchand. Ylxat is its capacity t •
JNlr. Yincent, Its capacity, when running full, is 800 barrels per
day—possibly a little more,
ilr. Margilind. How about the East works?
Air. Yincent. The East works has a capacity of about 5(MÎ barrels
per day.
Mr. 3iIarchand. Is it in operation?
Mr. Yincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Tlien you have a plant known as the G. and H.
plant, have you not Î
IMr. Yincent. Yea, sir.
Mr.SIarchand. Is that in operation?
Mr. Yincent. On^ partially.
Mr. Marchand. IVhat is its capacity?
Mr. Yincent. Its capacity—its Jull capacity—^is about 600 barrels
per day.
Sir. SIarchand. Xow, have you some other plants besides the ones
that we have enumerated ?
IMr. Yincent. Yes, sir.
jMr. SIarckand. Give the names to the Commission.
]Mr. Vincent. We own a plant known locally as the Pennsylvania
salt plant.
Mr, Marchand. WTiat is its capacity?
Mr. Yincent. Its capacity woiud be about 300 barrels per day.
Mr. Marchand. Is it in operation?
Mr. Yincent. It is not.
JMr. Marchand. Since when hàa it not been in operation?
Mr. Yincent. I do not just remember the time; it must have been
in the fore part of 1901.
JMr. Marchand. Is that a plant whidi you own, or have you ac¬
quired it by lease?
Mr. Yincent. It is a jilant we own—fee simple.
Itlr. Marchand. Did you ^ate what its capacity was?
Mr, Yincent. Three hundred barrels per day.
Mr. Marchand. Have you a plant known as the Crystal works?
Mr. Yincent. We have.
]\Ir. Marchand. Ih it in operation?
Mr. Yincent. It is not.
Mr. Marchand. Do you own that plant?
]Mr. Yincent. Y^ sir.
13
Mr. Marchand. MTiat is its capacity when working?
^Ir. Vincent. It has a capacity of 300 barrels per day.
Mr. Marchand. Have you any other plants, either in operation or
that are not?
Mr. Vincent. "We had other plants that we dismantled. Those
are all the plants we have now.
Mr. Marchand. Do you own or have you control of a plant known
as the Packing-house plant ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Is that in operation?
Mr. Vincent. It is not.
Mr. Marchand. How long has that been idle?
Mr. Vincent. I think since along—as near as I can remember—
since along toward the 1st of January, 1901. v
Mr. Marchand. You own that plant?
Mr. Vincent. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. You lease it, do you not?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. From whom do you lease it?
Mr. Vincent. I think that lease was made with the Hutchinson
Packing Company.
Mr. Marchand. The packing-house plant was in active operation
up until the time you leased it, was it not?
Mr. Vincent. "\Vell, it ivas run part of the time.
Mr. jMarchand. It run a great deal more then than it does now ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^Marchand. It run 112") to its capacity ?
Mr. Vincent. I don't know as to that.
Mr. Marchand. "What is its capacity?
Mr. Vincent. To the best of my information, it had a capacity—
its capacity would be GOO or 700 barrels per day.
Mr. Marchand. You, in point of fact, for your com2iany, leased
that plant for the purpose of closing it uji and ¡H'cventing its opera¬
tion ? ' • ^
Mr. Vincent. No, sir. I do not
Mr. Marchand. "\Vhat rental do you ¡lay for that 2ilant per year ?
Mr. Vincent. I really don't remember.
Mr. Marchand. Now, don't you know that you paid between
$18,000 and $19,000 to kee2i that jjlant idle?
Mr. Vincent. No, sir.
jNIr. Marchand. Did you ever hear it?
Mr. Vincent. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. IVlio has the lease ?
Mr. Vincent. I think the lease is in Chicago..
Mr. Marchand. Have you a copy of that lease in your office?
Mr. Vincent. I am not sure; I do not think so.
!Mr. Marchand. Have you been in possession of it?
Mr. Vincent. Of the lease?
Mr. Marchand. Yes.
Mr. Vincent. Not that I remember.
Mr. Marchand. Did you have anything to do with it at the Lime
it was made?
Mr. Vincent. I did not.
, Mr. Marchand. No>v, are there any other plants, Mr. Vincent?
14
Sir. VixcEXT. I do not understand your question.
]\Ir. MARniiAXD. Are there any other plants owned or controlled by
the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company!
Äfr. VixcEXT. No, sir; I belie%'e not •*
Mr. Marcuaxd. Xow, turn to the map on your left and indicate*
where the tracks of the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad
Company are located, if you can.
Mr. ^'INCBXT, Well, I nave a map that I understand is better than
that.
Mr. Marchaxd. If you will produce that map l shall be obliged.
Älr. JÍARTix. We have a blueprint here that is more specific than
that.
[The same is to be sent to Washington and filed as part of tlie
record.]
Mr. aLvrciiaxd. Show that to Commissioner Prouty, and indicate
to him what portion of the road is constructed.
;Mr. Yixcext. This part marked
Ckiminisisioner PnoDrr. "WTiat is this blueprint supposed to show I
!Mr. VixcEXT. Tliis blueprint was made oy the Santa Fe road, as
I understand it, and shows their traclîs south of the Arkansas River.
Cbnimis-sioner Peodty. This is a blueprint of the Santa Fe—a
section of the Santa Fe Railroad?
Mr. ÄlAnnx. Well, it is of all the roads here.
Commissioner Peoutv. The track to the right is the Atchison, To-
peka and Santa Fe and the one below that to the left is the Chicago,
Rode Island and Pacific!
Mr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Commissioner PEOurr. And the red mark which appears on this
blueprint you say repr^ents your trecha—^thos® that are œnstructed?
Mr. vincext. Yes, sir.
Commissioner PEpnrr. Xow, point out so that the stenoOTapher
can get it, if possible, the part of your read that is constructed. -
Jlr. VixcEXT. Tlie part of our road that is constructed is in section
23 ; it intersects and coimects the Hutchinson Southern main line with
what is known as the C., K. and W. line from Hutchinson to Kins¬
ley ; it also makes the coxmection with the Rock Island.
Commissioner Peouxi'. And how long do you ®y that line is; that
is, the part that is constructed now ?
Jlr. vixOEXT. This part here [indicating], to the best of my recol¬
lection, is, I thinlc, not quite 5,000 feet.
Conunissioner PEOtmr. There is a point marked—is that "Ë"
there! There is a point marked "B;" does your road reach that
point!
ühr. VixCTXT. Xo; I think not. Xot so far as that.
Commissioner PBoxm". It reaches the point of intersection with
the railroads indicated on this map ?
Mr. VixcsBXT. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pnourr. And it runs to Üie point of intersection
with the Santa Fe!
IMr. VixcExr. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. You think that is about 5,000 feet!
lilr. ViNCEXT. I think both of these tracks are about 5,000-feet
tracks. _ ■
Commissioner Peouty. There are two tracks-?
15
]\Ir. Vincent. There are three tracks in all.
Commissioner Proutt. One track runs on one side of the Morton
salt Avorks
Mr. Vincent. There is a track on each side of the Morton salt
works.
Commissioner Prouty. And the other track runs on the other side
of the Morton salt ivorks ; and there is still a third track
Mr. Vincent. A cinder track.
Commissioner Prouty. A cinder track—that is also near the Älor-
ton Salt Works?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. How long is the track to the south of the
Morton Salt Works ?
Mr. Vincent. I could not state positively; it must be over 2,000
feet;
Commissioner Prouty. And the track to the north of the salt
works ?
Mr. Vincent. It must be about the same.
Commissioner Prouty. And that cinder track which you speak of ?
Mr. Vincent. Now, I really do not know.
Commissioner Prouty. Wlien were those tracks constructed?
Mr. Vincent. That cinder track Avas—those tracks were constructed
when I took the management of the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Com-
pany.
Commissioner Prouty. And hoÁv long ago is that ?
Mr. Vincent. That was in January, 1900.
Commissioner Prouty. January, 1900. Those tracks were in ex¬
istence then ?
Mr. A^incent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. And they were used by that salt Avorks
for the purpose of connecting Avith these railroads, were they not ?
Mr. Vincent. ATell, I presume so. Now, there may have been
some construction since that time, but I think most of those tracks
Avere there in 1900.
Commissioner Prouty. They Avere, at that time, owned by the
Morton Salt AVorks?
Mr. Vincent.. I presume they were; yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. They Avere used by the Morton Salt AVorks
as SAvitching—as side tracks?
Mr. Vincent. I presume so.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you know Avhether they were constructed
by the Morton Salt A\''orks at its expense, or whether the railroads
contributed to the cost of their construction ?
Mr. Vincent. I understand that the railroads did not contribute.
Commissioner Prouty. AVhen did the Hutchinson and Arkansas
Iliver Railroad Company acquire title to those tracks ?
Mr. Vincent. As I remember, it was in August^—sometime in
August, 1902.
Commissioner Prouty How long after the incorporation of the
company ?
Mr. Vincent. Probably thirty days, or a little more. '
Commissioner Prouty. Hoav did it acquire title?
Mr. Vincent. It acquired title by lease—ninety-nine-year lease.
Commissioner Prouty. And from Avhom Avas the lease"?
Iß
jSIr. ViNCEXT. Tlie Hutchinson, ICans.,^ Salt Company leased the
tracks to the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Company.
Commissioner PitouTY. For ninety-nine yeara?
Hr. VixcENT. For ninety-nine years.
Commissioner Phouty. What is the rental ?
Jlr. Vincent The lease was considered a conveyance of the facts,
and the price paid ivas $7,843 and some cents.
Commissioner Pkouty. Seven thousand eight hundred and forty-
three dollars a year!
3tlr. Vincent. Xo, no. For all the tracks.
Commissioner Peouty. Is there a conveyance of the use of the
track in jierpetuity for ninety-nine years!
;Mr. Vincent, It was consiclered the same as a sale.
Commissioner Puouty. I understand that it was not a con%'eyance
in fee simple.
]Mr. Vincent. It is the same thing in our State.
Commissioner Pbouty. So that in effect those tracks were sold ?
^Ir. Vincent Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proüty, To the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
Railroad Company!
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. For seven thousand and some dollars.
Commissioner Phouty. And since that time the railroad has owned
those traclis!
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Phouty. Were these trades paid for to the Morton
Salt Works? -
IMr. Vincent- They were. The Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company
received pay for them.
Commissioner Phouty. There are 800 shares in the capital stock of
your company?
^Ir. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Phouty. Have those shares all been issued!
Mr. Vincent. I would think so ; yes, sir.
Commissioner. Pmuty. Have they teep i^id for!
Mr. Vincent. Xot in full ; no, sir.
Commissioner Phouty. Wliat part have been paid for?
Mr. Vincent. I think there has been 10 per cent.
Commissioner Phouty. That would be about $8,000?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. '
Commissioner Phouty. Enough paid in to pay for those tracks?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Phouty. And also to pay for those lots that you
bought?
Mr. Vincent. How was that question!
Commissioner Phouty. I say, in addition to that has there been
enough paid in to pay for the lots that you bought!
Mr. Vincent. By the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad!
Commissioner Phouty. Yes.
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir; the Hutcliinson and Arkansas River Rail¬
road paid for the lots.
Commissioner Phouty. Wlio is the treasurer of your railroad com¬
pany ?
Mr. Vincent. I think it is Mr. Mark Morton, of Chicago.
17
Commissioner Peouty. Do yon know anything about the financial
operations of the company ?
Mr. Vincent. Xo, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. IVliat is your official position on the road ?
Mr. Vincent. My official position is that I am one of the Kansas
directors, and have the title of vice-president.
Commissioner Peouty. Well, in these days vice-president of a rail¬
road means almost anything. Sometimes we have a vice-president in
charge of traffic; sometimes we have a vice-president in charge of
operation, and sometimes we have a vice-president in charge of the
finances of a railroad. Are you vice-president who has charge of the
traffic, or the finances, or what?
]\Ir. Vincent. Your honor, I can explain to you just what mj'^
duties are with the road.
Conunissioner Peouty. That is what we Avant to knoAV.
Mr. Vincent. "Wien this charter was taken out, it Avas to build a
railroad from this point to a connection with the St. Louis and San
Francisco road, to build that road in. My duties were to have this
surA'ey made and secure the right of way. In fact, I had charge of
that part of the business of getting the Frisco railroad in. I met
Mr. Yoakum and Mr. Winchell, in connection with Mr. Morton, in
St. Louis, and made a contract with them to build the Frisco road.
All that portion of the road Avas under my charge.
Commissioner Peouty. You Avere Avhat Ave speak of as vice-presi¬
dent in charge of the politics of the Kansas road.
Mr. Vincent. If you like to term it that.
Commissioner Peouty. inien did you come here in connection
Avith the Hutchinson Salt Company?
Mr. Vincent. I haA'e been aa'ith the Hutchinson salt Avorks for
nearly seventeen years.
Commissioner Peouty. "When did you have first to do with the
Morton salt Avorks ?
Mr. Vincent. In January, 1900.
Commissioner Peouty. At that time those tracks Avere constructed
as they are noAV ?
Mr. Vincent. I Avould not say as they are noAV. There Avcre tracks
constructed OA^er there, and I do not remember Avhether there has been
any change or not.
Commissioner Peouty. "VlJiat Avere these tracks used for then ?
Mr. Vincent. I presume they Avere used for putting the cars into
the Avorks.
Commissioner Peouty. "Well, do you knoAV Avhat they Avere used
for ?
;Mr. Vincent. I Avould say they Avere used for that.
Commissioner Peouty. What Avas your connection Avith this salt
Avorks then ?
Mr. Vincent. In 1900?
Commissioner Peouty. 1900.
ISIr. "Vincent. In 1900 I Avas general manager of the Hutchinson,
Kans., salt Avorks.
Commissioner Peouty. And the principal manufactory of that
company Avas the Morton salt AVorks?
Mr. Vincent. It Avas the largest AVorks.
73Sa—0.:; m 2
18
Commissioner I'iîouty. Don't yon, as the general manager of that
•company know how its product was got in and out of its mill?
Mr. ViNCEKT. Yes, sir. I understood you to ask before 1900.
Commissioner Düouty. Were they so used in 1900?
JMr. Vincent. Yes, sir. These tracks were u.sed for that purpose.
Commissioner PaouTV. They Mere used e.xactly as the}' are now?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pkouty. The same locomotives operated over these
tracks that do now?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Piíouty. Xoiv, m'hen those tracks ivere conveyed to
the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Company was any
change made in the operation of the tracks?
^Ir. Vincent. Xo, sir; I think not.
Connnissioner Piîoutv. Is the Hutchinson and Southern Railroad
constructed ?
3Ir. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Piîoutv. There is a road there -which runs from X"o.
14 on this map through Xo. 23 to point " C," or nearly to point " C? "
Mr. Vincent. Which runs south here sometiiing over a hundred
miles long. That m'as the lease me m'ere getting from the Santa Fe.
Commissioner Piîoutv. X'ow, you say you proposed to take a lease
from the Santa Fc, or of the Hutchinson Southern?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Piîoutv. Did you take that lease?
Mr. Vincent. I do not think the lease M'as ever completed. The
arrangements M ere all made. Mr. Mudge, the general manager of the
Santa Fe, asked what M'e proiiosed to give him for the track. They
M'anted to connect this line [indicating]. They had tM'o bridges
pretty close together and they M'anted to abandon one. We jireferred
giving him the right of M-ay diagonally across our line foï- this line
here across the bridge.
Commissioner Piîoutv. That is, you Mere to give them the right of
m'ay where the new line is marked out on this map ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proutv. Xow, did your line, to connect with the St.
Louis and San Francisco, proceed in the direction of the Hutchinson
Southern ?
Mr. Vincent. It did not get that far along; no, sir. It would not
have been in connection with it over here in the north part
Commissioner Proutv. In m'hich direction m'ould you go out of
toM'n on this map if your line m'as to be constructed as you had origi¬
nally intended ?
Mr. Vincent. With the main line, I presume, we would have gone
northwest.
Commissioner Proutv. XortliM-est?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proutv. To a connection with the 'Frisco?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proutv. IVliich m'ould bring the 'Frisco into Hutch¬
inson ?
Mr. Vincent. Xo; we would bring the 'Frisco northeast. We
were to build 30 miles of road. That is our contract with the 'Frisco.
19
Commissioner Prouty. When that road is constructed in the town
of Hutchinson, do you reach any of your other salt plants except the
Morton salt works?
Mr. Yincext. "When the 'Frisco road
Commissioner Prouty. Xo; when your road.
^Ir. Yixcext. If we were to carry out what we have started, we
would reach all our plants.
Commissioner Prouty. Bring all your plants in connection Avith
all the railroad systems in the city ?
Mr. Yixcext. Yes, sir. • . ,
Commissioner Prouty. You Avould reach the other salt plants in
Hutchinson at the same time, Mr. Vincent ?
Mr. VixcEXT. "We would reach part of them, at least. ^
Mr. ISIarchaxd. As it now is, Mr. Vincent, your line does not
reach any salt works other than the Hutchinson, Ivans., Salt Works?
Mr. VixcEXT. Xo, sir ; it does not.
Mr. M.vrchaxd. "\Mio is president of this railroad company?
ilr. VixcEXT. Mr. Joy INIorton.
!Mr. ÍMarchaxd. Who is the traffic manager?
Mr. VixcEXT. I do not knoAV that there is an3mne by that title.
Mr. Joseph P. Tracy is general manager.
Mr. Marciiaxd. He is general manager?
]\Ir. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marciiaxd. There are other roads entering Hutchinson
besides the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eh'er Railroad?
ilr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Mr. jMarchaxd. Just tell what roads thej' are.
]Mr. VixcEXT. The Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe," the Chicago,
Rock Island and Pacific, and the JMissouri Pacific.
Mr. jMarciiaxd. Mr. "Vincent, it appears from an examination of
the tariffs of the lines which you have just named that your line has
representation on those tariffs on salt out of Hutchinson.
Mr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
ilr. Marciiaxd. Upon whose application ivas the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad incorporated in those other tariffs ?
Íílr. VixcEXT. I could not tell you, sir.
]\Ir. ÄIarciiaxd. Whose name is signed to them ?
Älr. VixcEKT. Well, the tariff I have seen ivas Mr. Joseph P.
Tracy.
Mr. Marciiaxd. As what?
Mr. VixcEXT. I really could not tell you that.
Mr. Marciiaxd. X'ow, to ivhat extent do you participate in the
rate, for instance, to the Missouri River points?
Mr. VixcEXT. The Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad?
Mr. Marciiaxd. Yes, sir.
Mr. VixcEXT. I absolutely do not know that ive get a cent. I
never saw the division sheet. I never was asked to join any rail¬
road in any tariff.
Mr. Martix. Do you know the number of-lots that you pur¬
chased for the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad?
Mr. Vixcext. I do; yes, sir.
Mr. Martix. What number?
Mr. Vixcext. Thirty-eight.
20
Sir. jrAKTiN. I believe you stated that the deed was taken in your
name for the purpose of concealment?
ilr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Mr. ÄIahtix. And that subsequently the deed was made to tha'
railroad company I
^Ir. VixcEXT. Yes, sir. "l^lien my deed was placed on record—
the same day, as I remember it—I conveyed this projierty to the
Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad. That deed is in the safe
in my office.
Hr. Haktix. You refer to four acres in the city of Hutchinson, on
the east side of the river Î
VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
itlr. JiIahtix. Shown by the map and marked " Transfer yard? "
ikfr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pnotrrr. JIarked in red ink " Transfer yard."
iifr. Maktix. You may state what kind of title was procured for
that ground.
^Ir. VixcEXT. That ground we secured by ninety-nine-year lease.
^Ir. Hartix. Just like the tracks on the west side of the river ?
ilr. Yixcext. Yes, sir. That is the ground now, I understand—
the terminal ground. In carrying out our plans we were making
this ground would be used for ddivery of cars—setting our loaded
cars into that place and taking the empty ones out received from the
other railroads. That is the piece j-ou were speaking of? I guess
it is.
Mr. ^IIartix. Yes, sir. You may, state Mr. Vincent, whether or
not this map hei-e sliows the relationship of that ground to the other
railroads of the city, as well as to the tracks of the Hutdkinuson and
Arkansas River Railroad.
Mr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir; I think it does.
Mr. Martix. IVell, now, you have incidently stated that you pro¬
cured this ground for certain purposes ; what purpose did you procure
it for?
Mr. Yixcext. For a terminal ground; for yard grounds. That
ground was secured for terminal or yard grounds. There was suf¬
ficient room, and the location of it was exactly what we wanted. All
the other roads—the Santa Fe, the Rock Island, and the -Missouri
Pacific—coidd deliver us coal and empty cars into this plat of
ground; we could receive our cars there and take them over to the
works, and they could be returned by their road.
Mr. SIarxix. Now, you say that you had a verbal agreement from
the Santa Fe, or, rather^ an incomplete agreement for the Hutchinson
and Arkansas River Railroad for a line from the cent® of section 14
down to letter " G " on this map south!
Mr. Yixcext. Yes, sir.
!Mr. Martix. But formal transfer was never made ?
Mr. Yixcext. Well, not that I know of. Of course, I am not abso¬
lutely positive,
air. aIartix. This bumness was attended to in Chicago!
air. Yixcext. Yea, sir. I do not think it was ever «mpletecl, for
about that time Mr. Morton was called to California, or went to Cali¬
fornia, with his wife, I believe, who was an invalid.
Mr. SIartix. This map correctly shows the two bridges operated
by the Santa Fe at present?
21
Jtlr. Tutcent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Maetik. And by building tbe line wbidi you pointed out to
the honorable commissioner, and which is marked " ííew line of the
Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe," the Santa Fe would 'have the
operation of only one bridge, would it not!
JMr. VrscaENT. Yes, âr. ...
Mr. Mahtin. It owns a line on the west âde of the ri^, running
to Kinsley!
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
kir. Martin. "Well, now you spoke of certain surveys being made
by the Hutchinson and Jirkansas Eiver Bailroad. Can you teE
where tii^ surveva were made—^in a general way ?
Mr. Vincent, "i es, sir.
Mr. Martin. "Where?
Mr. Vincent. Those surveys were made from Burton to Hutchin¬
son, and from Hutchinson to \Vherry, a point in Ilice County, on the
St. Louis and San Francisco road.
Mr. Martin. That is a point about due north of the dty of Hutch¬
inson, is it not?
Mr. Vincent. It is west—^northwest—of Hutchinson.
Mr. Martin. Eight up Cow Creek Valley?
Mr. Vincent. "Ses, sir.
IVIr. SIartin. Kow, where was the road to leave the present line of
the Frisco!
Mr; Vincent, At Burton, in Harvey County.
Mr. Martin. Then it was to come east to the city of Hutchinson ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
SLr. Martin. And then go northwest up Cow Crœls and intersect
the San Francisco road at Wherry?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin. Your company made that contract with the 'Frisco
road. Well, now, that rôad has not been built yet, has it!
Mr. Vincent, äo, sir.
Mr. Martin. You know the cause of delay in carrying out that
scheme!
Mr. Vincent. The cause of delay, Ave are informed—and Ave know
that it was—AV'as on account of the deal or merger, or Avhatever" you
may caE it, between the Eock Island and the St. Louis and San Fran¬
cisco road. It give.s the 'Frisco now a road into Hutchinson by way
of Medora over the Eodc Island; hence, I suppose tliey have no use
for the new line.
Mr. Martin, I will ask you Avhether or not, in your opinion at
least, this road Avould have been built and completed before noAV if it
had not been for tliis deal between the 'Frisco and the Bock Island!
Mr. Vincent. I am a'ery sure it would have been; yesj sir.
Mr. Martin, Tli^ lots Avera procured in this connection?.
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin. And those other lots ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin. You are the manager of the Ilutchmson, ICans., Salt
Company, you say!
Mr, Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin. And you liaA'e been manager of that company for
many years ?
22
Sir. VixcEST. For ^venteen years.
IMr. :^^AKTlx. I iindprstiuul that you have no stock, however.
iXfr. ViscEXT. I think I liave one share.
Jfr. AFautix, And you have one share in this railroad company?
Sir. VixcEXT. Yes'slr.
Sir. SIartix. And with reprard to the railroad company, I presume
that the business affairs and deals were determined by the principal
owners in Chicago, were they not I
Älr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Sir. SfARTix. You say that you did not know of any division ever
receive'd by the i-ailroad company, or what it is?
Mr. Yixcext. Xo, sir.
Mr. Martix. That is something you did not attend to and had no
connection with ?
!Mr. VixcEXT. No, sir.
Sir. Martix. Did the Hutchinson, ICnns., Salt Company have any
connection with it?
Sir. VixcEXT. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. IMartix. You stated, incidentally, in answer to a question asked
by ^Ir. ^Marchand, that you were going to aslc the city of Hutdiin^n
no bonus?
Mr. VixcEXT. Yes, sir.
Sir. IklARTix. "Well, why was that policy adopted, if you Icnow ?
ifr. Yixcext. Yes; I do know.
Sir. Martix. Well, why was it?
Sfr. Yixcext. Of course I was a resident of this tomi and had
been for thirty years. I had always taken a pride in our town, in our
county, and ft was the height, really, of my ambition to bring this
railroad into Hutcliinson without the people of Hutchinson, or Eeno
County, having to put up one cent of money.
Mr.'Martix. As a matter of fact, you were mayor of the city for
maw years, were you not ? • "
Mr. Yixcext. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martix. And your holding of that office was terminated by
the fact that you declined longer to hold the office ?
Sir. Yixcext. Yes, sir.
Mr. SIartix. And you have been identified with the local interœt
a long time—ever since you moved to the eitv, have you not ? ~
Mr. Yixcext. Yes, sir; for thirty years.
Mr. ^Martix. And j'ou hold at present the office of State senator
from this district, do you not ?
Mr. Yixcext. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^tlARTix. And you haye been the manager of this salt com¬
pany, I believe you stated, for seventeen years ?
ïir. Yixcext. That is, of the Hutchinson Salt Company leading up
to this.
Sir. SIartix. Well, was there any object or policy in keeping the
lease or deed out of record that was referred to by counsel?
Mr. Yixcext. Yes, sir ; I think so.
Str. SIartcx. Well, what was it?
Sir. Yixcext. Simply it meant the advance in real estate. It
m^nt an advance in the price of property; probably some if it could
not have been secured at all.
23
Mr. Mabttn. i will ask you, as a matter of fact, whether in con-
Btructînf» railroads and terminals and railroad connections it is not a
very ordinary plan not to take leases and put them on r^rdl
Mr. ViNCEKT. Yes, sir; I think it is.
Mr. Maktik. It is the uauai rule?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir; I think it is.
Mr. Mahtin. Kow, you have stated the capaci^ of the various
plants whidi are owned or controlled by the Hutcliinson, Ivans., Salt
Company. Are you able to state how many,independent.plants there
are here, as they call themselves ?
Mr. Vincent. There are four here in Hutchinson.
Mr. Maktin. Four in Hutchinson?
Mr, Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. kÍAHTiN. Please mention Üie names to the honorable Commis¬
sioner. , . '
Mr. Vincent. The Hutchinson Pure Salt Company, the Carey
Salt Company, the Union Ice and Salt Company, and the Barton
Salt Company.
Mr. Martin. Can you state approximately the capacity of th®e
plants—these independent plants—commencing with tlie Car^' Salt
Company?
Mr. Vincent. It would be only approximately, of course—the an¬
crai idea I have of the manufacture of salt.
Mr. ÄIähtin. Well, give the best of your opinion on that point—
that is, the best opinion you can give.
Mr. Vincent. 1 would estimate the Carey salt, plant—its produc¬
tion—at 350 barrels per day. I would estimate the Hutchinson Pure
Salt Company's capacity
Mr. Martin. You neàl not state them if you do not know, because
the owners of the plants are here.
Mr. Vincent. I do not Imow, of course; there is no way I could
know exactly.
Mr. ISIartin. You may state, if.you lînow, whether or not recent
additions and enlargements have made to the Caray Salt Com¬
pany.
lir. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin, Well, to what extent, if you know ?
Mr. Vincent. Well, a dairy mill has been put into the Carey Salt
Company ; and I think one or two pans in the last cightœn months.
They have all been built since 1900, and I think within the last
eighteen months they have been operating two more pans._
Mr. Martin. Can you recollect and state to the Commissioner the
number of evaporating pans there were prior to eighteen months ago
in that plant:? ...
Mr. Vincent. My recollection—now, I would not swear positively—
my recoltetion is that there were two.
Mr. Martin. And how many are there now ?
Mr. Vincent. There are four, I believe,
_Mr. JVIartin. That is, the size has been doubled within the last
eighteen months?
Mr. Vincent. I domot state that positively; I think it was within
the last eighteen months twb pan.s nave been built; within the last
eight or ten months that a dairy mill has been put in. ,
24
Äfr. IMaittix. And that the Sfatthews plant has been doubled
witliin the last twelve months ?
Ifr. Vincent. I do not rameraber the time; the capacity has been
doubled within the last eighteen months, I should think.
Mr. Martin, llie Barton Salt Company is building a new plant?
now ?
Mr. Vincent. The Barton Salt Company are constructing a new
plant at this time.
Sir. Maiotn. In place of one that was destroyed by fireî
Älr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. [Martin. I believe you stated that you had those surveys—
maps of those surveys—did you not ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir; I have profiles and estimates of the cost.
Wo had to have all this before we could make our contract. We had
to know just what it would cost us.
Mr. IMartin. You can have them here this afternoon, if necessary!
Mr. Vincent, Yos, sir.
Commissioner Peoutt. Is there an unlimited supply of salt under¬
lying Hutchinson?
[Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commifisioner PœiUTr. Wliat does it cost to-day to erect, ready for
operation, a plant whidi will praduce 500 barrels ¡ler day approxi-
matelyf
Mr. Vincent. That would be owing altogether to the kind of plant
you would build.
Commissioner Pikjuty. Well, build a plant in which you can—say,
a plant you would build if you had money enough and were going to
build one to-day; one whidi would, without an unreasonable outlay,
manufiicture salt in the most economical manner?
Mr. Vincent. A 500-barrel plant ? •
Commi^oner Ptottty. Yes; a .500-barrel plant, approximately.
Mr. Vincent. Oh, I diould think—I should estimate $30,000. Of
course, I am not familiar with the price of material.
Commissioner Pbquty. Well, I do not want a close estimate.
Mr. Vincent. Oh, I would say $25,000 to $30,000; owing alto¬
gether to the amomxt of wareroom you build.
Commissioner Phoutt. IWien your plant is built, how much will it
cost to manufacture salt per barrel?
Mr. Vincent. That is owing alto^ther to conditions, your honor.
Commissioner Pkiuty. Well, give me the limit, the lowest and the
highest.
Mr. Vincent. I think salt can be manufactured for $1.25 a ton—
$1.80.
Mr. Marchand. Is that before or after it is put into the barrel?
■ Mr. Vincent, That is before.
Commissioner Psoutt. Now, you say it is entirely a question, or-
largely a question, of conditions?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peotjtx. Just mention some of the conditions.
Mr. Vincent. Conditions as to what kind of a plant you have,
whether you have a good plant that is in good repair, or whethö:
you have one of the older ^le plants.
Commi^doner PHOtrrr. Well, now, as I understand it, the process
of manufacturing salt consists in pumping water down into the salt
bed, which forees the saturated brine out?
25 ■
Mr. ViNCBXT. Yœ, sir.
Commissioner Pkoutt. Is there any great difference of apparatus
with wliich that is done? Is there any cHfference in the cost of brine
as you run it into pans!
Slr. Vis-CEXT. ;^o; there is no great cost. * There is a difference in
the brine. Sometimes our wells will only produce brine—^well, I—I
think po^bly we have, in years gone by, produced salt out of an 88
per cent solution of brine.
Ctmuniasioner Pboott. WeU, that would be expensire, because
you evaporate so much more water?
jMt. Vdîcekt. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peodty. Is there any need of that?
Mr, VxscEST. Yes, sir; there might be at times. It takes quite
a while to put down a new well.
Commissioner Peouty. But after the well is pxrt down, if it is
properly operated is there any great cost of delivering the brine at
the evaporating pan?
Mr. VINCENT. No, sir; no great cost to that.
Commissioner Peouty. Now, that is eráporated by putting it into
a pan and applyiiig heat to it in some way ?
JMr. VracEN^ "ies, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. How is that heat ^nerally applied!
IVIr. Vincent. It is applied in different ways. iVe have what we
call the " steam plant " and the " open-pan plant."
Commissioner Peouty. "VVIiich is the more economic »1—^the steam
or the open pan?
Mr. Vincent. I think the steam plant, built in the right way, is
the most economical.
Commissioner Peouty. Suppose you have a steam plant. That
consists of running live steam through the brine, does it not ?
JMr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commiasioner Peouty. And evaporating tlie water!
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. And it takes «) much coal to evaporate to
much water ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, íár; TOraetimeä it takes more coal.
Commissions Peooty. But assuming that you have a boiler of
reasonable capacity, it talms just a ton of coal to evaporate about
so much brine, and that will produce about so much salt f
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. What would be an improved plant as
against an unimproved plant, or a modem plant as against a plant
that was not modern of that kind ?
Mr. Vincent. Well, I think, your honor, we have a very modem
plant; the plant now is the Joy ilorton plant.
CommiíBioner Peouty. How much cheaper ivill tlmt manufacture
salt tlian some of these independent companies?
Mr. Vincent. I could not tell you what the cost of the independent
people is for the manufacture of salt; I have no means of knowing.
Commisiioner Peouty. Well, after Üiis brine is evaporated they
rake the salt out of the pans and dump it?
Mr. Vincent. Some of them rake it off ; TOine of thcin have sdf-
rakes. It is raked out by machinery.
CommÍBBioner Peouty. What do you think salt can be maniifac-
üb
tumi for—$1.33 jxr ton? Wlmt do you think it costs to manufac¬
ture it here in Hutchinson?
5Ii'. ViKCEXT. Well, your honor, I could not tell you what the
average cost would be.
ConuniMoner I'houtï: You make about a thousand barrels of*,
salt a day at the iMiU'ton salt works?
ilr. YÍxcext. Alîout 1,100 harx"eR
Connuissioner Pkouty. Over what lines of railroad do you ship
that salt? ,
ilr. Vincent. It is shipped over the various lines—the Bock
Island, the Slissouri I'acific, and the Santa Fe.
Coniinissioner Pkouti'. When you sliip over the Missouri Pacific,
how do you reach that road f
Mr. Vincent. The cars of the Missouii Pacific arc set over to the
Morton jilant by cither the Hock Island or the Santa Fe engine. I
do not reallj reîneinher which ; probably both of them.
Commissioner Phoutt. Well, now, who makes the arrangement
with the Bock Island or the Santa Fe to set in the Missouri Pacific
cars? Suppose you have a carload of salt destined to the Mi^uri
Biver, will the Bock Island and the Santa Fe allow you to sliip that
car by the Missouri Pacific?
Mr. Vincent. They haven't got anything to do with it.
Commifsioner Peoctt. They have this to do Avith it, that you can
not get their car into your factoiy unless they want to set it iñ.
Mr. Vincent. But they have to set it in.
Commissioner Peoutv. Under some 2>rovision of the Kansas hiw?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peocty. For how much a car?
Mr. Vincent. I do not think there is any charge—any switching
charge..
Commi^oner Peoutt. Do you mean the Kansas law compels the
Atehison, Topeka and Santa Fe to set a 3iIissouri Pacific car into
your fe.ctoiy for nothing?
Mr. Vincent. I do not linow what the railroads pay; I know we
do not pay anything.
Commissioner Pbouty. VTio effects the arrangement between the
Santa Fe and the Bock Island and the Missouri Pacific? Is that a
matter of agreement between them?
Mr. Vincent. I presume so. I do not know.
Commissioner Peotjty. You do not knoiv how much the Missouri
Pacific pays?
Mr. Vincent. Ko, sir; I do not know whether they pay anything
or not.
Commissioner Peoutx. You simply pay the rate?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pkouty. If you want to ship a carload of salt from
here to Kansas City, you can ship it eith^ by the Eoc^ Mand, the
Santa Fe, or the jMissouri Pacific?
Sir. Vincent. Yes, sir; we can.
Commissioner Peoxjty. How do you determine in your mind
whether the car shaU be shipped by the one or the other of those
lines?
Mr. ViNCEOT. We determine. very lai^y, quite largely—for a
considerable time past we hâve had to Toad any car we can get.
27 ^ ■
Th^ has been a car shortage here in tliia territory ; it 1ms been hard
to get cara Sometimes Tre get Santa Fe, sometimes Missouri Pacific,
and sometime Kock Island cara.
Commi^ioner Pnourr. Over whidi railroad hare you mads the
larger slupments in" the last year ?
Mr. Vincent. I really conld not tell you. We aim to divide the
businera and treat the railroads alike.
Commissioner Pboutt, To ^ve eadi one about the same numbei*
of cars? ' ■
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir; that is •what we try to do.
^ Commiœioner Pkiutt. That is the practice from the Morton and
from all your other plants?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir; we do not operate the plants separately,
you understand. We dmde up the entire buâneœ.
Gommi^raier Phoxjtt. But, taking your entire businesa, you aim
to divide it equally between the three railroads ?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Paotnrr.. Do you do that at the request of the rail¬
roads or because it occurs to you it is a feir thing to do ?
Mr. Vincent. It has occurred to me—to our people—that it was
the fair thing.
Commitóoner Phoxjtt. Has tliere ever been a confèrent» between
you and the railroads about that?
Mr. Vincent. Yo, sir; there never has.
Mr. Maecjhand. Under the laws of the State—is the Hutchinson,
Kans., Salt Company incorporated under the laws of tlie State of
Kansas ? ' -
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.-
Mr. âlAECHAND. Under the laws of the State of Kansas?
. Mr..vincext. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. I believe you testified that the president of this
salt company was Mr. Morton—Älr. Joy Morton?
. Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Maecuand. You also testified that he was the president of the
railroad company!
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. MARcnASD. State to tlie Commiision the per cent of bulk salt
sliipped oiit by your company to barrel salt.
Mr. Vincent. I could .
Commissioner Pboutt. What do you mean by bulk salt?
Mr, Maroiiasd. I mean, your honor, salt that is not put into bar¬
rels or packages.
Mr. Vincent. I could,only estimate that. I should think that of
our total shipments, about 25 per cent.
Mr, Marchand. Twenty-five per cent bulle salt ? .
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. And the balance is shipped in barrels and paek-
ag^?
Air. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proutt. Is it mostly shippetl in bairelB or other¬
wise?
Mr. Vincent. In barrels, sacks, and bags—pacldng salt.
Commissioner Proutt. Is it an expensive matter to put it into a
barrel or a packa^?
, 28
!&rr. Vincent. Is it expensive?
Commissioner Pnourv. Yes.
Mr, Vincent. Xq, sir; not necessarily.
Corami^ijoner Pnourr. Vliat does it cost a bar^I ?
Sir. Vincent. For packing the salt? I think it is about 2 cents—'
or cents per barrel.
Commissioner Pboutt. "Wliat does the barrel itself cost!
Mr. Vincent. That is a fluctuating price on the barrel. It is
owing altogether what we have to pay for cooperage. At this time
the cooperage is very high.
Commissioner Pnonn-. How much does a barrel oast now!
ilr. Vincent. I should think a barrel would cost about 23 or 2A
cents.
Commissioner Pnoimr. How much coal does it require to produce
a ton of salt ?
Hr. Vincent. Your honorj that is a very hard question to answer.
Some coal will produce a gi-eat deal more salt than othere. As I said
awhile ago, it is owing to the condition of your brine.
Commissioner Pboutv. Vliat kind of coal do you use!
iMr. Vincent. "We use Kansas coal.
Commissioner PimcTi-. That is, from the Pittsburg district?
]Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. '
Commissioner Pr^UTY. Do you use sladi?
!Hr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pnotrrr. What does that cost per ton?
Hr. Martin. May the court pl^se, we have no objection to in¬
forming your honor on all matters, but possibly Mr. Yincent would
not care to go into all the details of a private business here. We
hare no objection to informii^ your honor, though.
Commissioner Peoüty. Is that coal brought here by all these dif¬
ferent lines of railroad?
^tlr. Vincent. From that field; yes, sir. Well, I do not think the
Sock Island has ever jiarticipated m the delivery of coal at Hutdiin- .
son—of slack coal from that district.
Commissioner Peocty. The Eock Island does not reach the Pitts¬
burg district ? ^ .
Mr. Vincent. No, sir; I think not.
Commissioner Peoüty. It is brought here by the Slissouri Pacific
and the Atdiison?^ •
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. VTiat part of your consumption is brought
by the Atdiison and the Miœouri Pacific? You aim to divide that
equally betwren the two roa ds f
Mr."Vincent. Yes, sir; we do. We divide that equally between
the two roads. Eecently the greater part of it has been over the
Atchison. The fact is the Mi®ouri Padfie thinks that they could
not spare the coal.
Commissioner Peouty. Do I understand that that comçs from any
mine that the Atchison operates itself, or is it brought from some
mine not operated ?
Mr. Vincent. I do not know as to that. We buy it from the coal
company. •
Cnmmifsionar Ptoitty. I think the testimony has been that- the
Atchison do not operate any mines.
29
Mr. Maechaiíd. ßecently, Mr. Vincent, you hare been getting your
coal exclusively.orer the Atchison line, hare you not?
Mr. ViNCBKT. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mahchaxd. For how long a period I
Mr. ViHCKXT. Well, I think for the last ^ren or right months
anyway; it may be longer.
Commissioner. PTOtmr.' I do not know if there is anythi^j Mr.
Marchand, to inquire into in regard to the coal situation. Inis in¬
vestigation refers only to the transportation of salt. I asked the
question merely as a matter of curiosity.
Mr. Makchasd. Mr. Vincent, you stated, in answer to a question
from Commissioner ftouty, that salt coming out of the Morton
plant, the initial carrier is the Hutdiinson and Arkanma River
Railroad, did you not?
Commissioner Pimurr. îîo. He stated that the Hutchinam and
Arkansas River Railroad Company owned those tracks which reach
the Morton plant; and it would follow from that that it must be
the initial carrier. I do not tliink he stated it.
Mr. Vincent. îfo cars or engines can reacli the Morton plant ex¬
cept over the tracks of the Hutriiinson and Arlcansas River Railroad.
Mr. IMarchand. Do they issue bills of lading!
Mr. Vincent. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand.-Waybill!
Mr. Vincent. No, sir.
Mr. Faihghild. How many tons of coal, approximately, does the
Joy Morton plant consume in a day ?
Sir. Martin. We object, if the court please, to these incmiries.
Commissioner Prquty. I am rather inclined to think, Mr. Fair-
child, thkt this matter of transportation of coal comes in here very
incidentally. It may be proper enough to ask him in a general way
how manjr carloads of com they consume in a day. You may answer
that question.
Mr. Vincent. About four carloads.
Mr. Fairciiied. Well, how many tons!
Mr. Vincent. Oh, it is owing to what kind of coal it is. It prob¬
ably may be 90 tons a day.
Mr. Iaiecihld. About 90 tons a day. The present list price is
$1.40 at the mine
Mr. Martin. We object to it.
Mr. Fairciiiiji. We were simply getting at the cost of production.
Has he stated that?
Mr. Martin. That is all immaterial. It is purely a matter of dis¬
cussion. It does not make any differenœ what salt costs.
■ Commiœioner Phouty. That is theoretically right; but the effect
of the discussion, if there is any, depends on the price of salt, the
price of produring it, and the price you can sell it for. And in that
view it seems proper enough to inquire into the price of producing
coal. We would not go into that in too great detail,
Mr. Faikchild. The present list price of coal such as you arc now
using at the mine is $1.40 a ton ?
Mr. Vincent. I do not know.
Mr. Fairciiiuj, Do you know what the tariff rate is from the mine
to Hutchinson!
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
30
ilr. Fairciiili). How much?
Mr. Vincent. One dolliir and tliirty-five cents.
Mr. Fairciiii.». How many barrels of salt, approximate!}', does a
ton of coal iiroduce?
Mr. Vincent. Owing altogether to the kind of coal.
Mr. Fairchili). The coal that you are using now?
Mr. Vincent. ISIy recollection is that it is about 14 barrels of salt
to a ton of coal.
Mr. Fairciulu. Don't it vary from 11 to 13, according to the condi¬
tion of tlie atmosiihere and the condition of your brine?
!Mr. Vincent. That is what I told you. It is altogether owing to
conditions. You asked, me what we are doing now. . I say about 14
barrels to a ton of coal.
!Mr. Fairciiild. About 14 to a ton?
^Ir. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fairciiild. IIow much does the labor cost?
^Ir. IMartin. If your honor please, I do not know
Commissioner Prouty. You have been interested in the salt busi¬
ness for a great many Vears, and have an impression as to what
these things cost. State, in a general way, the cost of producing a
ton of salt. If you have any impression you may say what it is.
ilr. Vincent. I really could not say without investigating.
Commissioner Prouty. He says he does not know,
ilr. Fairciiild. Do you know the approximate amount of labor
that it costs ?"^
Commissioner Prouty. Two and one-fourth cents.
IMr. Vincent. Approximately that.
"Witness e.xcused.
]Mr. Marchand. i\Ir. Elbuiy—is he here ?
(Mr. Elbuiw did not respond.^
Commissioner Prouty. IMio is ilr. Elbury?
jMr. ^Iarciiand. ]\Ir. Elbury is the surveyor who run this line for
the alleged railroad.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you expect to show anything different
from what ilr. Vincent stated?
IMr. ÍIarciiand. I want to show, your honor, who paid him for
his work.
Commissioner Prouty. Mr. Vincent, do j'ou know who paid Mr.
Elbury for surveying this line?
!Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner' Prouty. Mdio did? i
Mr. Vincent. The Hutchinson and Arkansas Elver Eailroad.
- îlr. ÍIarciiand. That is not definite enough, your honor.
T. G..Elbury, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. ÄIarchand. State your name, occupation, and place of resi¬
dence, Mr. Elbury.
IMr. Elbury. T. G. Elbury; county surveyor and city engineer;
Hutchinson.
Mr. ÄIarciiand. ilr. Elbury, I believe within the last year or
eighteen months you ran a line from a point at or near Burton, in
Harvey County, to and through the city of Hutchinson to a point
near "\\1ierry, in Eice County, Ivans., did you not?
Mr. Elbury. Yes, sir.
31
Mr. jMäechano. Who employed you to do that? ,
Mr. Elbubt. Mr. Vinceiit.
Mr. Marchand. Who paid you?
■ Mr. EiBHHr. Mr. Vincent.
Mr. Marchand. By his check?
Mr. Elbuhy. Yes, sir,
Mr. JMarchand. Individual check?
Mr. Elbury. YeSj sir.
Witne^ excused.
W. B. Biddle, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. Marchand. State your name, occupation, and place of resi¬
dence.
Mr. Bn>dle. W. B. Biddle; freist tralfic manager of the Atchi¬
son, Topeka and Santa Fe Bauway System.
Mr. Marchand. And you reside in Chicago ?
Mr. BroDLE. Chicago, 111. ' _ ,
Mr. Marchand. T& Santa Fe Eailway Company has iœued tariffs
upon salt from £he city of Hutchinson, from the town of Hutchinson,
to various pointe outside the State of Kansas, in which the Hutchin¬
son and Arkansas Bivm* Eailroad Company joins. I hand you the
tariffs which have been, filed with the Interstate Commerce Cora-
mission.
(Tariffs handed to witness.)
Mr. Biddle. I can nof identify them. That is a Missouri Pacific; I
can not identify it.
Commissioner Peouty. IVliat is that tariff you hold in your hand,
Mr. Biddle! Give the Interstate Commerce Commission ntimber.
Mr. Biddle. Santa Fe System Ko. 5900; Interstate Commerce
Commission Ko. 1469. It is a tariff naming the rates on salt not only
from Hutehinson but from aU Kan^s salt-producing points. I am
not familiar with tlie details of these tariffs any more than wliat it
says on its face. It may cover the entire United States, for all I
know, without going through-it.
(The tariff referred to has been made pait of the record in this
case.)
Mr. Marchánd. Is the Hutcliinson and Arkansas Hiver Bailroad
mentioned on any of those tariffs?
Mr. Biddle. On that tariff!
Mr. JMarchand. Wellj is there a tariff on which it is ?
Älr. Biddle. In addition to that is handed me a supplement or
amendmmit, which makes, so far as the publication of through rates
is concerned—the rate.s shown in that apply in connection with the
Hutchinson and Arkansas River Bailroad.
Commissioner Prduty. How do you identify the supplement?
Mr. Biddle. The supplement gives the reference both to the freight
tariff number and to me
Commissioner Peooty. Supplement No. what?
Mr. Biddle. Well, the numoers do not appear to agree here. This
is called Santa Fe system tariff No. 0750-1J, and the Interstate Com¬
merce Commis-sion number is given as 2354. That docs not appear
to correspond with these particular numbers given on the original
tariff.^ But if it will make it any clearer, I will say that the Atcliison
road issued, in connection with the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
32
Kailroatl, a tariif making the Ilutdiinson and Arkansas River Rail¬
road a party to the through rates on salt from Ilutdiinson, Kans.
The tariff read to all points wherever we jniblish salt rates frian
Ilutdiinson. The tarilf, of course—a through tariff or any tariff-
made with a «mnecting railroad is of absolutely no cons^uenœ, cuts
no figure, unless an arrangement is made under the tariff. And the
tariff with the Ilutdiinson and Arkansas River Itailroad was made
effective in onlj' one particular. That was on bulk salt from Hutch¬
inson to älissoiiri River points.
Jlr. ilAKCirAjco. What division do you allow them!
3Ir. B1DDI.E. Well, !Mr. Marchand, I will say _this,_ that so far as I
know the Commission has never undertaken to inquire into the divi¬
sion between railroads. I simply make that statement now, .so far as
we are concenied. I have no objection to advising the poramission
what wc did about it ; butT bold that is a line of inquiry that has
never been gone into before, and that it has been held did not relate
to it.
Commissioner PnouTv. If this is a railroad properly, I apprehend
that might be so. We frequently ask for a division as bearing upon
the reasonableness of a rate, holding that the public is interested in
the through rate alone. But, in a measure, in this case it is alleged
that your division is equivalent to a rebate, and that might depend
to some extent upon the division itself. There does not seem to be
anv i-ailroad here.
Sir. Bibdce. Please understand me. I have no objection about ad¬
vising the Commission of the arraiigeiiicnt we made with the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas River Railroad as to divisions, but I do not want
it understood that we were compelled to answer" in this case, when we
would not be as to divisions with a railroad; because that would put
us in the light of having made a joint tariff with a railroad which is
not a railroad. We claim it is a reilroad.
Mr. Martix. I have a decision of the supreme court of Ivansas as
to what is a railroad that fits this case like a wet blanket. In this it
makes 110 difference about the length of a railroad
Commissioner Pkouty. We have at present several cases which in¬
volve the principle of divisions, and in those cases we inquired into
the amount of the division, and I think we should do the same thing
in this case and ask you to tell the amount of the division. .
Mr. Biddle. I do not want it put on the gi-oimd that we must
answer that we have a division with a railroad that is not a railroad.
We hold we have made a division with a railroad. We allow the
Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad 25 per cent of the rate from
Hutchinson to the Misouri River, with a maximum of 50 cents per
ton on bulk salt only.
Commissioner Pnoprr. On shipments to the Mis^uri River only?
ilr. Biddle. Yes, sir; to the point where we participate in the_ rates.
We pay that for what we consider good and sufficient busine®
reasons—reasons which involve the handling of the salt business
from the territory where we could readi it and handle a part of it,
and where the Hutchinson field could dp a part of it.
^Jx. ;SIarchaxd. That tariff applied to all salt out of Hutchinson?
Mr. BmoLE. The tariff itself read so that we could amil ourselves,
if we saw fit, of a division of the rates with the Hutchinson and
33
Arkansas Kiver Kailroad to anj' points where we issue tariffs. AVe
made it effective in the one particular of bulk salt.
Mr. Marchand. Does your tariff apply fo barrel salt as well as to
bulk salt ?
Mr. Biddle. I guess it does.
iSIr. Marchand; Then that aj^plies to all shipments?
Mr. Biddle. If that is what you are getting at, the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad, directly or indirectly, has never been
allowed aiij' division except on bulk salt to the Missouri River.
Mr. Marchand. Dp you know who produces bulk salt at Hutch¬
inson ?
!Mr. Biddle. Why, I guess that any plant that is making salt does.
Mr. Marchand. All the plants, in your judgment ?
Mr. Biddle. I do not know whether any of them dispose of it as;
bulk salt or not.
Mr. Marchand. Your tariff, Mr. Biddle, reads to points in Texas,
does it not ?
Sir. Biddle. Why, I guess it covers any territory where we have
salt rates.
Mr. ^Marchand. On Colorado business what division do you allow
the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Company?
Mr. Biddle. Mr. Commissioner, I have explained as clearly as I
could that we had not allowed the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
Railroad Company any division on any salt except bulk salt going
to the Missouri River. If that does not answer Älr. Marchand's
question I do not know what ivill.
Mr. ISIarchand. How long have your tariffs been in effect?
Mr. Biddle. Since the tariff was issued.
Mr. Marchand. When was that ?
Mr. Biddle. Effective September 30, 1903. That evidentl3'' is not
the original tariff.
Mr. Marchand. Upon whose application on behalf of the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas River Railroad were they allowed a division?
^Ir. Biddle. I think it was Mr. J. P. Tracy, general manager.
Mr. Marchand. General manager of this railroad ?
Mr. Biddle. That is my recollection. I made tlie arrangement
myself.
Jlr. jNIarchand. Mr. Biddle, j'ou stated that you did this for rea¬
sons which in your judgment were good and sufficient?
]Mr. Biddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Will you state those reasons?
Mr. Biddle. I shall be glad to.
ifr. Marchand. Do so, please.
Mr. Biddle. Early in the year 1902 we had information submitted
to us saying that the conditions were changing. The bulk salt, as
you probably understand, is largely consumed by the paclccrs, or at
the packing' centers. I do not know wliat percentage goes else¬
where, but I think it is very small. We found that because of the
peculiar conditions in the East—I do not know, what the conditions
were that led up to it—but we found that prices were being made in
the East, and also found that the competition of foreign salt was
reaching a point where we were threatened with the loss of the salt-
bu.siness, particularly from the Kansas field to the Missouri River.
738a—05 m 3
ài
And WC were (old l>y the Hutchinson and ArkaiiHas lîivcr Kailroad
that tiicy (liought the}' could undertake to hold at least a part of
that traille of the Kansas field to certain lines serving the Kansas
field if certain concessions coidd he made. Oi'dinarily the course of
procedure would have been simply to reduce our rate openly on huljc
sSalt from the Kansas held to the Missouri Kiver. There was more
than one reason, in our judgment, wh}' that should not be done.
In (he first j)lace, the relation between bulk and barrel salt had
never been greater than about 2 cents i)er 100 i)ounds—on* bulk salt
10 cents, on barrel salt 12 cents. If we reduced the bulk-salt rate
to the extent that would 2)robably have been necessary, and had done
it by an open tariff', we would undoubtedly have í)een obliged to
reduce our barrel rates. That would have reduced our revenue to
the ^Missouri Kiver and to and from the entire territory west of
the Missouri Kiver on barrel salt, a commodity that was not affected
by this competition. In addition to that (and in confirmation of
it I can submit yon some corresiiondence in connection with this
case at the time) we found that bulk salt was being moved from
Liverpool to the ^Missouri Kiver during the middle and latter part
of 1002 at a rate as low as Id-J cents jjer 100 i)ounds through from
I..ivcrj)ool to Kansas Citj*.
Commissioner Kiíouty. Through New York?
!Mr. Biddle. Through various points; through the Gulf ports.
AVe had at that time an arrangement with what was known as the
Gulf Transport Line. I am getting a little ahead of this, however.
AVe found extremely low rates from Liverpool by various ports—as
low as IG or 17 cents per 100 i:)ounds. On the strength of the show¬
ing made in regard to this comiietition, this arrangement with the
Hutchinson and Arkansas Kiver Kailroad Comisan}' was made on
bulk salt from Hutchinson to the Missouri Kiver b\* the Atchison
Comjiany. Later on in the year—I think, jjerhajjs, in October—I
saw a letter from the manager of the Gulf Transport Line stating
that his line had been engaged for a large movement of salt from
Liverpool to Kansas Citj* b}* the Gulf; that the movement Avould
ajiproximate 10,000 tons; that other contracts would probably
largely increase that amount; that the rate was exceedingly low.
AVell, that came to me in the course of business as a matter of infor¬
mation; but no rate being sjoecified, I made no mention of it. Later
on in the following month my attention was called to a rate that our
own people had put in from Galveston to Kansas City on salt billed
through from Liverpool to Kansas City under a charge of 9.13 mills.
AVe earned G.43 cents per hundred pounds. AAYll, I think we were
advised that three or four cars were in transit, and I simplj' tele¬
graphed to take no more. Of course, we had to take those that had
been shipf)ed. In exfylanation of that a second letter was sent me
from the Gulf Transport i^eople stating that they had secured this
contract, and that it had been taken at ll^ cents from Liverpool to
Kansas City—a matter over which the railroads or the Commission
has had no jurisdiction or control up to this time. And we simply
protected ourselves in this way, which we thought to be jierfectly
proper and safe, and in a manner which we did not believe would
work a hardship to anybody.
35
That is the history of the connection between the Atchison road
and the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad in regard to divi¬
sions on salt.
Mr. Marchand. Under your tariff on salt to the Missouri Eiver,
all shipments of all salt out of Hutchinson pays a division to the
Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad?
Mr. Biddle. Well, I have just told you what we paid. The record
will show.
Commissioner Protjty. The tariff shows that they make a joint
rate on all salt from the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad.
Mr. Biddle. The tariff is susceptible
Commissioner Peoutal Mr. Biddle says, in point of fact, that they
have never allowed a division except on bulk salt which went to the
Missouri Eiver ; and b}! the Missouri Eiver is meant JMissouri Eiver
points which take the same rates ?
Mr. Biddle. Yes, sir; if we happen to be parties to a tariff to the
Missouri Eiver, we would allow that division on any business that
moved over our road. xVnd I think it has been the policy of some
of the others here to divide. I presume they would give us our jiro-
portion to Kansas City.
Mr. Marchand. Have you ever received a complaint from the inde¬
pendent producers of salt at Hutchinson to the effect that they were
not able to go into the Missouri Eiver market, and making applica¬
tion for lower rates ?
Mr. Biddle. I do not think I have ever had a complaint directly or
ever heard of any from anybody engaged in the salt business in the
State of Kansas since the formation of the railroad.
Mr. Marchand. Do you know how many miles of track the}' have?
]\Ir. Biddle. Why, I have heard it stated here.
Mr. Marchand. About 4,000 feet.
Mr. Biddle.' Well, that would not be miles. That is a matter that
is susceptible of proof. I do not know about it. I didn't know what
it was when I made the arrangement. I knew they had in good faith
undertaken to build a transfer or terminal railroad into Hutchinson.
I knew' the reasons for it. I believe that they have intended to do it
by this time; but, notwithstanding this, we made the arrangement
with the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad such as it was at
that time and is'to-day.
Mr. Marchand. Then you entered into this joint arrangement with
the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad wdthout really knowing
whether there was any road there or not?
Mr. Biddle. I have done that hundreds of times. I. have made
divisions
Mr. Marchand. You have an agent here?
Mr. Biddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Isn't it among his duties to inform you of the
local conditions?
Mr. Biddle. It would be if I asked him for it.
IMr. Marchand. You say you didn't ask him for it?
Mr. Biddle. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Isn't it customary to ask an agent at a point where
you join with another road?
Mr. Biddle. It isn't with me.
36
]\rr. SrAKCiiAsi). Would you make a joint tariff with Mr. Carey, or
any other of the independent ¡n-odiicers who liuppcn to own a switch
a iew feet long!
ifr. Bi»Dr.E. Well, if Sir. Carey comes to me with a proposition^
1 will give him an an-swer to it. ^
Conunissioner Pnotm*. Who do you say first appreached you with
roferenco to the division for this railroad ?
Mr. Bii)ni.E. Mr. J. P. Tracy.
Commissioner Pkoutv. Previous to that time what did you know
about the IIutchiniK)n and Arkansas lîiver Railroad f
Mr. Bidole. I don't know that I knew anything about it, except, as
1 was told at that timo the hLstory of it. Xow this is merely my
recollection of it ; I have not even any actual knowled^ They had
been negotiating for six months prior to that time with our own
people for the purchase of a considerable pieœ of track here in
Hutdiinson, and whicli our people were willing to surrender, because
of another track they intended to build and thereby abandon the use
of one of its brides.
Commissioner Pkouty. At the time Mr. Tracy came to you, did you
have any talk as to the extent of his raih-oad ! MHiat it did, or any¬
thing of that sort Î
^Ir. Biodle. I do not know that I did.
Commissioner Pnotrrr. I think he represented to you that unless a
division of some sort was allowed to his road the salt manufacturers
of Hutchinson would not be able to ship to the Missouri River in
competition with other salt.
;^I^. Biduie. It is only fair to say that we a.s traffic men had been
watching the situation.* We knew we were threatened with the loss
of this business. We knew from the reimrts that came from other
people that it was more than likely that a large part of this business
would come from other sources of supply.
Commissioner Pbouty. Those supplies were partly foreign I
Mr. BmoLE. Parti}' foreign and domestic.
Commissioner Peouty. Domestic sourœs of supxily were eastern
points?
Mr. Biddle. Yes, sir;
Commissioner Phooty. IVliat do jou mean by eastern points?
IMr. Biddue. I would mean Michigan or Oliio, or wherever the salt
has gone in from that territory.
Commissioner Peoüty. .cVnd the representation to you was that
unless this division was allowed salt would not continue to move from
Hutchinson to the Missouri Hirer?
Mr. Biddle. Yes, sir. We know more than that A greater
amount of salt has gone in from other domestic sources of supply in
the last twelve months than has gone in in the last ten years.
Commissioner Peotjty. You miderstand that the Hutdiinson and
Arlcansas River Railroad Company was manufectnring salt?
Mr. Biddle. No, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. Well, just how do you suppose that the
allowance of a division to that road would hdp the salt manufac¬
turers of Hutchinson?
Mr. Biddle. I didn*t undertake to aœume that at all. We dealt
with the raRroad. "\¥hat they might do I had no knowledge of.
37
Commissioner Phoutt. Didn't you have some suspidon as to how
that would be done?
Mr. BmnuB. No, sir; I didn't feel called upon to suspicion any-
tliing in connection with it. '
Commi^oner Phoutt. You know, as a matter of œurse, that the
salt manufacturers at Hutchinson would not be benefited by that
division unle^ they got part or the whole of it ? ^
Mr. BmnuE. I didn't feel called upon to make inquiry into that.
Commiffiioner Phoutt. "Without being called upon to make any
inquiry, it seems to follow, as a matter of necessity, that the manu¬
facturers of Hutchinson could not lie benefited unless the manufac¬
turer got it?
Mr. Biddle. As long as the manufacturer didn't come to us with
a proposition I didn't go beyond that.
Commissioner Phoutt. Well, if that division, in order to benefit
the manufacturer at the Älissouri Eiver, must go to some particular
manufacturer, did you have any idea or thought which manufacturer
was going to be benefited?
Mr. Biddus. As I say, Mr. Commissioner, I didn't undertake to
surmise or suspicion anything beyond the mere fact of the arrange¬
ment we had made with the Hutchinson and Arkansas Biver Eail-
road.
Commissioner Phoutt. Did you know that Mr. Traqy was con¬
nected with one of the large salt companies of HutcliinsonI
Mr. Bn}Di.E. I didn't Itnow ; I don't loiow it to-day.
Commi^oner Phoutt. Did you know the tracfe of the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas River Railroad were simply the switching tracks
of the largest salt company here in Hutchinson?
Mr. BmnuE. I knew that at the time our arrangement was made
the property owned or the railroad owned by the Hutchinson Salt
Company—^my knowledge of Hutchinson was extremely limited.
Commissioner Phoutt. Did you know where the tracks were?
Mr, Biddle. I think, perhaps, I did.
Commissioner Phoutt. You knew, then, they were what had
formerly been the switching sidings of the ^Morton Salt AVorks?
Mr. Biddle. If I didn't know, I could have found it out.
Commissioner Phoutt. AA'hen you receive a car from the Morton
Salt AA^orks—when the Atchison road" does—Avhose locomotive takes
out the car 1
Mr. Biddle. I do not know anything about it. I would know only
in a general way how that would be handled. I have not made any
particular investigation of it. I will say this, that my recollection is
that at the time all the railroads—two out of the three railroads—
kept an indepmdent engine here, each one doing its own work, get¬
ting into the salt plants. I think later on a new arrangement Avas
made in a spirit of economy by which, perhaps, one of the railroads
did the switching for all the others here. 1 he one may have done
it "part of the time and the other part. The compensation for doing
that kind' of work was entirely arranged between the operating
departments; I do not know the details.
Commissioner Phoutt. At any rate, if one company did it^ the
expcn-ses Avere divided?
Mr. Biddle. Certainly.
38
Coinniîsfioncr Pkoutv. So that in theory it was your line which
put the car in and took the car oiitl
Ufr. Bn)nr,E. If wc were doing the switching, it would be.
Connnissioiiei* I'noi-'rr. If the Rock Island was doing the s^vîtc^l-
ing, yoti would pay the Rock Island for doing it?
Àlr. BinunE. íes, sir.
Coinini.s.sionpr l'aotm*. So that you avouM in fact put the car in?
ilr. Biiini.n. Under onlinary conditions that passibly would te so.
Coimnis-sioner IkiooTr. Under this arrangement, by which you
allowed a division to this road, was any change inade in the method
of handling the cars ?
Jlr. Biodle. I think not.
Commissioner I'bouty. Was aiw change made in the way traffic
was hilled?
ifr. Biddle. I think not.
Commissioner Pnoorr. Your line Avould issTie a Avay bill; your
line would take out the ear; and your line would transport it ?
3Ir. BmoLE. I could not answer definitely as to that. So far as I
know, no change was made in the methods of handling the busine®.
Coinmis.sioner l^nouxy. Then, the only reason ivhy you made a
division with the IIutchin.son and-Arkansas River Railroad Company
was to give somebody 25 per cent of this rate; it was not in considera¬
tion of any service which that railroad rendered, because it rendered
no service ?
!SIr. Biddle. Xo ; not phrsical service.
Conmii&sioner pEourr. tMiat kind of service ?
iklr. Biddle. It was with the expectation of an axTangement being
made by Avhich that particular business would continue to move from
this field and we Avould enjoy our share.
Conunissioner Pboutv. It could only move from tliis field if the
rate ivas lower, and this was simply a device by wMch you reduced
the rate, was it not ?
Jlr. BmoLE. I don't know as to tliat.
Commissioner Pedütt. Didn't you do it instead of reducing the
rate, because you could not reduce the rate on bulk salt without dis¬
turbing
llr. Biddle. I Imve already said that we made an arrangement ■
with this .railroad and alloAved them a division rather than openly
publish a tariff.
Commissioner Paouii', That was because you undrastood that this
rate had to be reduced?
ilr. Biddle. Yes, sir.
Commissioner PEOurr. You could not stimulate the movemöit of .
bulk salt unless the men who produce the hulk salt got hold of it?
Jlr. Biddle. I did not inquire into it.
Commissioner Pboutt. If you had thought about it, would you
have come to that conclusion f
ilr. Biddle. I do not know what conclusion I would have come to,
CommL^ioner Peouty. Can you tell us, âù*. Biddle, how mudi salt
you have moved to the Missouri River upon which this diviaon was
aUowed?
!Mr. BrooLE. I could tell you, Mr. Commissioner. I can not tell
yon now, but I shall be glad to let you knoAv what it was.
Commissioner Phouty. I wish you woidd file a statement showing
the amoimt which you paid to the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
39
Eailroad Company in the -way of divisions on this salt. That ar¬
rangement began, von sajj abont a year last July ?
Mr. BmnuE. We'll, I think, pei-haps, it was a little later than that
by some roads. I do not think it was quite as early as that with us.
Commissioner Pkoutt. With which road did it first begin!
Mr. Biddle. That I could not tell you. I do not know whether we
were the ones that were first negotiated with or some one elœ.
Commissioner Pkouty. Has it continued without interruption since
then?
Mr. Biddle. N"o, sir. It was—^the arrangement was canceled, I
think, early in this year.
Commissioner Prouty. About the time the Elkins bill was passed ?
Mr. Biddue. Well, I don't know that the dates were simultaneous.
But the cancellation was largely exfierimental. We didn't Itnow but
that the conditions would be such that it would continue to move, but
it didn't. We found we were obliged to reinstate it.
Commissioner Prouty. It must have occurred to you, Mr, Biddle,
that the bulk salt could move from Hutchinson to the Missouri River
without the division which some salt manufacturer got. Only that
manufacturer, who had the benefit of the dividon could move salt to
the Missouri River. You must have known that no other manufac¬
turer here in Hutchinson who did not directly or indirectly get the
benefit of this 25 per cent could move salt to the itfissonri River.
Mr. BiDDr.E. Well, I didn't know, IMr. Commiasioner. I have not
investigated, of eouim The record will show; it is a matter of easy
proof. My judgment is that for years prior to any question being
raised about this division the bulk salt had practically been abandoned
by this concern. BTiat it Avas I don't know. It is probably a less
desirable paxt of the salt business than any other. Tliat is aomcthing
that we could a.scertain right here. It could have been shoivn that
when there was no question of a division or the neceœity for it the
same people had been doing the same busineiœ.
Commissioner PimuTr. Until something like tA^o years ago you
gentlemen did not feel obliged to maintain your published rates. In
those days did this salt company enjoy something of a concession in
the movement of salt to the IMiiSîouri River ?
Mr. Biddijî'. Lots of people have been favored. It would not be
fair to single out any one company.
a\fr. M.arciiakd. I believe you stated in effect that this division
with the Hutchinson and_ Arkansas River Railroad Btirnulatod tho
movement of salt to the Missouri River.
Mr. BinoLE. Well,_ I will say this, that we hoped it would accom¬
plish certain things in the movement of salt from this territory and
we have been very much disappointed.
Mr, Marciiakd. In point of fact your tonnage has been increased?
Jklr. Biddle. Xo, sir; I think it is less than it has been during the
■same period for years prior to that time.
lilr. Mabciiahd. Mr. Biddle, referring now to tho application of
Mr. Tracy for division of rate, was' that application made to you
orally or was it done by letter?
Mr. Biddle. Oh, I think he came and talked to mc about it^
Mr. Marchand. Who was present?
Mr. Biddiuî. No one but Mr, Tracy and myself.
Mr. Marluiand. When did that conversation occur!
40
Mr. Biddle. AMiat do yoii mean by " when? " '
Sir. ]^Iâuciiani}. Approximately, what date. ^
Mr. Bmnuc. I slioidd think—^there were quite a number of talte
with Mr. Tracy. I .should think that he talked to me first in July{a
year ajjo.
Mr, MAnciiAXi). July, 1902?
Mr. BiDBiiE, Yes, sir, I do not know whether it had lieen taken
up prior to that time.
Mr. Mahchan-o. Arc you sure, now, no one else was present!
Mr, BIDOLE. I have not any l'ccôliection.
Mr. Makciiaxd. Did this talk occur in Chicago?
Mr. Bidimjí. Yes, sir.
!Mr. MAncHAXD. In your office ?
Älr. Biddle. I think it was.
Mr. Makcuaxd. After von had agreed with Sir. Tracj' to give him
a division of this rate, did you confer with any of the other lines
reaching Hutchinson with the view of having them join in the same
arrangement I
^ :Mr. Biddle. We made the arrangement independent of any other
line.
Mr. Mahciiaxd. Did you report that action to your association ?
^ir. bmijle. "Wliat do you mean? What association!
Älr. Marciiaxd. The írans-!Missouri Freight Association.
Mr. Biddle. I do not have to.
3ilr. 3iIarciiaxd. Did you?
làlr. Biddle. I do not know that we have given—^that there has been
anv aasoeiation or organizations.
Mr. JIarciiaxd. In point of fact, was that discuased in your asai-
ciation or was it not?
Air. Biddle. Well, I do not know what association you have in
mind.
Mr. 3Iarciiaxd. X hare referred to the Trans-AIissouri Freight As¬
sociation. I
Air. Biddle. Well, I have not attended a meeting of the Trans-
AILssouri Freight Assaiiation for ten years.
Sir. Marciiaxd. Was it discussed in the Western Trunlc Line Asso¬
ciation ?
Air. Biddle. I have no knowledge of it. -
Commissioner Paourv. Do you laiow to what pei^on or corporation "
or firm this division was paid?
Sir. Biddle. I do not jmow; I have never seen tlie payments; but
there is no question that it was paid to the Hutchinson and Arkansas
Biver Eailroad Company, through our accounting or financial de¬
partment. .
Jilr. AIarciiaxd. File a statement showing the amount, and in whose
favor the check was drawn.
Witness excused.
W. C- Stith, having been duly sworn, testified as follows :
Air. AIarchaxd. Just state your name, occupation, and place of
residence.
Air. Stith. W. 0. Stith; freight traflSc manager, Aiissouri Pacific;
St. Louis.
41
Mr. Maechakd. Mr.. Stitli, I hold in my hand a letter addressed
to Mr- J. M. Smith, auditor, Interstate Coimnerce Coimnission, dated
October 8, 1903, and signed "W. G. Stith." Will you identify that
letter, please?
Mr. Stith. This is a letter dated October Sj 1903, addressed to J. M.
Smith, auditor, Interstate Commerc» Commission, and signed in my
name, per " L." . I am respondble for that letter.
Mr. Maechahtd. Did you sign that letter, Mr. Stith!
Mr. Stttii. I did not personally.
Mr. Marohasd. llTio signed it !
Mr. Stith. My chief clerk.
Mr. IMaechasd TlTiatishisnamef
Mr. Stith. D. E. Lincoln.
Mr. Marchand. In that letter, ]\Ir. Stith, yon make certain state¬
ments as to the ownership of property by the Hutcliinson and Arkan¬
sas Eiver Eailroad Company. Upon what do you base your infor¬
mation in that regard f ".
Mr. Stith. This letter, from the beginning of the second paragraph
to the end of the communication, reamng as follows :
This railroad was Incorporated under the lm,vB of the State of Kansas, In July,
1902, for the building and operating of a railroad and telegraph line from Hutch¬
inson, Ueno Ctounft-, Kans., southeasterly to n point of conneetlou with tlie
Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Hallway at or near the town of Kechi, Seilg-
wlck County, Kans.
Its principal place of business is at Hutchinson, Reno County, Kans.
The company has acquired valuable tetmlnal fadlltto In the vicinity of
Hutchinson, Kans., and at present affords connections between other railroads
centering at that point and i»etween industrial located on Its right of way.
The pratent board of directors is Prank Vlnc-eut. J. C. Baddeley, G. Philips,
Jí». P. Tracy, D. Peterkin, Mark Slorton, and Joy Moi-ton. The resident mana¬
ger is Frank Vincent.
The portion which I have read is a verbatim coiiy of a memoran¬
dum furnislied to my office by Mr. Joseph F. Tra^, the general
manager of the Hutchinson and Arkansas Hiver Eailroad.
Mr; Marchand. Had you at that time that letter was written any
personal knowledge of the-facts, as you state them in your letter?
* Mr. Stith. No ; not from personal investigation of the facts.
Mr. Marchand. State to the Commiasion Avhether that letter was
in reply to a request from tlie office of the Interstate Commerce
Commission ?
Mr. Stith. Yes, sir. It is stated in the first paragraph that the
letter is addressed to J. SI. Smith, auditor, Interstate Commerce
Commission, which reads:
Deas Bib : In your fawr of September 22, Inqnh-y is made for information
concerning the Hutcliinson and Arkansas River Railroad.
Then follows what I read before. I have the original papens.
Mr. Marchand. You have what original papers!
Mr. Stith. The original papers of tliis correspondence.
Mr. Marchand. Have you the original mcniorandiira furnished
you by Mr. Tracy!
Mr. Stith. Yes, sir:
íifr. Marchand. Will you produce it!
Commissioner Pnourv. There is no question, atout it
Mr, Stith. If you wish it, Mr. Commissioner, I will produce it.
42
:Mr. :M.\ucnAXD. ilr. Stitli, here are some papers piirjporting to be-
tariiTs of the ^Missouri Pacific Railway; will you itleiitify those?
(Ilniuls tari ITs to witness.) .*
]klr. SxiTii. This first one is Interstate Corameree Commission
Xo. 3515. The caption is "The Missouri Pacific Railway Company.
St, Jjoiiis, Iron Mountain and Southern Railway Company and
Leased, Operated and Independent Lines, and tlie Kansas City
Xortliwestem Railroad Company, Sedalia, Warsaw and Southwest¬
ern Railway, and Union Pacißc Railway. Joint freight tariff."
Tliis tariff applies on salt from Hutchinson and other points to
stations on the lines that are mentioned in the caption of the tariff.
• Tliis tariff shows rates on salt upon what are known as Slissouri
Pacific and Iron Mountain stations to Missouri Pacific stations.
Attached to this file is amendment Xo. 15 to Interstate Commerce
Commission Xo. 3515, with the other amendments to this tariff.
Amendment Xo. 15 shows that the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
Railroad was made a party to the rates as .shown in the tariff.
Commifôioner Paourr. And tho» are your ®ilt rates from Hutch¬
inson and other Kansas salt-producing points to various points?
3iir. SxiTH. Yes, sir.
Xow, that is one set of tariffs. I have here also Interstate Com¬
merce Commission Xo. 2925, which names the rates on salt from
Hutchinson and other Kansas salt-producing points to stations on
the Iron itountain Railway. This includes amendment Xo. 11,
which makes the same rates apply in connection with the Hutcliinson
and Arkansas River Railroad.
Commissioner Prouty. Xov.-, the Iron Mountain does not in any
way reach Hutchin¡«>n ?
ilr. Stitii. Xo. sir.
Commissioner Pnourr. Simply appears in connection with the Mis¬
souri Pacific ?
Mr. SOTir. This is a joint tariff, Missouri Pacific and Iron Moun¬
tain, diowing that there is a through tariff from Hutchinson over tlie
Missouri Pacific in connection with the Iron Mountain to those points
of destination. The fii^t one is an amendment, Interstate Comineroe
Commmission Xo. 34G6, applying on salt from Hutchinson over the
Missouri Pacific and Iron.Mountain and connecting lines to Hot
Spring, Ark. And amendment Xo. 4 to that issue, making the rates
apply in connection with the Hutchinson and Arlransas River Rail¬
road.
The first of this lot is Interstate Commerce Commission Xo. 4655,
applying from Hutchinson and othar salt points to Behnont on busi¬
ness for the southeast and Memphis, Tenn., and also to Xew Orleans
via Alexandria. And amendment Xo. 1 to that same issue—making
amendment Xo. 2, if you please—proidding for repiœentation for
the Hutchinson and Arlransas River Railroad Company.
[The letter writtai by Mr. Stith and the tariffs referred to have
been filed as part of the record in this case.]
Mr. SIaechaxto. Xow, Mr. Stith, state to the" Commission why the
Missouri Pacific and Iron Mountain has allowed the division of the
through rate to the minta named in the tariffs to the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River RailHiad.
Mr. Sttth. It has not. i
Mr. SIahchand. It has not?
43
jilr. SnTH. ííotasawhole; ho, sir.
Üfr. ÄL\rchand. In -what respect has it ?
!Mr. Steeh. It has made substantially the same arran^ment as was
outlined by Mr. Biddle for the Atchison, Topeka and l^nta Fe.
]Mr. Mahchakd. Do I understand that it has allowed a division of
25 per cent on Omaha business?
3ilr. Stcth. Bulk salt. A maadmum of 50 cents per ton. - In other
words, on all that goes to Omaha to which the rate is higher than to
Kansas City the rate would be not to exceed 50 cents.
Mr. Marchastd. There are some points, now, in Arkansas under
the tariffs whidi you have identified ; do you allow a division to this
Hutchinson road on traffic to those points?
lilr. SxiTH. There are some of those points, but not all of them,
where a division is allowed.
^Ir. Mahchaxd. Just state to the Commission all the points there.
CommiœionCT Proitit. Is that bulk or ban-el salt f
Mr. Stith. I am not clear as to that.
Commiróonir Protttt. Now, you may give the points.
Mt. Stitii. I coidd not answer as to what points; I know Little
Bock is one ; I Icnow Texarkana is another. I afeo see Hot Spring
provided; but there is no division jorovided for; there is no pro¬
portion allowed on Hot Spring busmess.
Sir. Mabch^'d. Do you know whether the ILitchinson and Arkaii;
sas Hiver Railroad ever made application to the Trana-Missonii
Freight Association for membersliip?
!Mr. Stith. I do not know.
]Mr. 3>Iarciiaxd. Upon whose application was the division allowed
to the Hutcliinson and Arkan^s Hiver Railroad Company?
Mr. Stitii. Mr. Joseph P. Tracy.
Mr. Maechaxd. Was that made in person or by correspondence?
Mr. Stith. In person.
Mr. Mahciiaxd. IMien was that made?
Mr. Stith, I should pv, to the best of my knowledge and belief,
Kjine time about the midäle of the year 10Ô2.
_ Mr. IMarchaxd.^ And he made the representations to you substan¬
tially as outlined in your letter to the üommisáon ?
Mr, Stith. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proutt. Did be at that time toll you whether dr
not the other roads here at Hutchinson were in line Avith Mr. Biddle?
Mr. SnTH. I do not recollect tliat he did.
Commissioner Proutt. Did you, before you made the allowance,
take pains to fiml out whether "they were?
]Mr. Sttth. I did.
Commissioner Peoutt. And what did yon find the fact to be?
Mr. Stith. Substantially as it has been stated here.
Commissioner Proutt. ïhat they were making the allowance on
this particular traffic?
Mr. Stith. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Proutt- What did yon understand the reason for
that allowance to Irç ?
Mr, Stith. I think Sir. Biddle has stated it just in the way I re¬
member it.
Commissioner Proutt. You must have imderstood, then, that some
salt company at Hntchinsam was getting the benefit of that division?
44
]\Ir. SïiTii. I (lo not know that we considered it at all. I consid¬
ered simply the (piestion of a through rate with the railroad company;
and, so far as I was concerned, the gross rate on the salt was the sâme
to any shipper.
Commissioner Pkoutv. That division could not have stimulated
the movement of salt unless some salt manufacturer did get the bene¬
fit of it.
]Mr. Stitii. I do not think it stimulated the business.
Commissioner Piíoutv. You expected it would?
ilr. Stitii. I expected it would; otherwise the arrangement would
not have been made.
Commissioner Pkouty. Can you point out to me any .way in which
it could ?
Älr. Stitii. I do not know that I can. I would not undertake to
answer beyond the (piestion of our dealing with the railroad company.
Commissioner PnouTV. Did the Huthchinson and Arkansas liiver
Pailrciad Comjiany render your company any service in consideration
of which j'ou allowed this division ?
ilr. Stitii. It allowed us the use of their tracks and facilities, with¬
out which we could not have had any business.
Commissioner Pkoutv. Are most of these salt companies i-eached
by side tracks?
ilr. Stttii. I think they are, generally; yes, sir.
Commissioner I'routy. Are those side tracks generally owned by
the plant or by the railroad?
Jlr. Stitii. I do not know that I could answer that question.
Commissioner Pkouty. Does your company reach any salt plant
here?
Mr. Stitii. I think so.
Commissioner Pkouty. Yliich one ?
Mr. Stitii. I think we reach the .Carej' plant.
Commissioner Pkouty. Do you own the side track, or does the
Carey Company own the side track ?
]\Ir. Stitii. That I do not know.
Commissioner Pkouty. Was any change made in the use of these
tracks after you allowed the division from what it had been before ?
]\Ir. Stitii. Ydiat tracks do you refer to ?
Commissioner Pkouty. I am referring to the tracks of the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas Kiver Railroad Company.
Mr. Stitii. So far as I know ; no, sir.
Commissioner Pkouty. Was any change made in the handling of
traffic ?
Mr. Stitii. No.
Commissioner Pkouty. Your company performed exactly the same
service that it did before ?
Mr. Stitii. So far as I know.
Commissioner Pkouty. You sim2ily allowed this railroad a divi¬
sion of 25 lier cent on certain traffic ?
Älr. Stitii. Yes. '
Commissioner Pkouty. And you did that for the purpose of stimu¬
lating the movement of bulk salt to Missouri River jioints ?
JMr. Stitii. Yes, sir.
Jlr. Marchand. Haye you still a division in effect with the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas River Railroad Company?
45
Mr. Stith. I think our notice'canceling this has been issued.
■Jlr. Makchaxd. Then you have canceled the rates?
Mr. Stith. Since it was a matter in doubt, we canctíed ib
Mir. Makchaxd. "\?höi was that action tal^ ?
Mr. Stith. I think that action was taken the latter part of ISTovem-
ber ; I could not give you the date exactly. It is a matter of record,
however.
Commissioner Peouty. Wellj do you esgpect to œntinue to receive
your share of the salt that is shipped by that company ?
Mr. Stith. Well, that is a matter that the future will have to take
care of. Of course if our conditions are not as favorable as other
lines we probably would not.
Mr. -Maechiaxd. Do you'lmow which of the lines out of Hutdiin-
son took the initiative in allowing a division to the Hutchinson and
Arkansas Eiver Kailroad Company ?
Mr. Stithí Ko : I do not.
Mr. Bichaeds. Do you have any tracks of your own from the Mor¬
ton salt plants!
Mr. Stith. I think not, sir.
Mr. Bichakds. Do you loiow anythiM about Üie extent of the
tracks of the Hutchinson and Arkansas HiTCr Bailroad Company-of
your own Imowledgef
Mr. Stitii. Ko ; I do not.
Mr. Bichaeds. A\^^en you made these tariffs your object and pur¬
pose and your sole object and purpose was to get service which you
could not otherwise get I
Mr. Stith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bichaeds. Did you know that the benefit went to any particu¬
lar manufacturer or plant ?
Mr. Stith. Ko ; I had no reason to know anything of the kind.
Mr. BiciiAraia. You did not investigate that matter; you supposed
it was a railroad company organized in good faith ? ' ^
ilr.. Stith. I dealt absolutely and solely with the railroad com-
Bichaeds. Did you have any dealings whatever with the salt
company. ' "
Mr. Stith. Kó.
Mr. BiciiAEoa. Did you ever make them any payment or rebate of
any kind, consciously or knowingly!
Sir. Stith. Ko, sir.
Commiasioner Peouty. Did you know, Mr. Stith, that the only
tracks owned by the Hutchinson and Arkansas Biver Bailroad Com¬
pany were those tracks which had formerly been the private sidings
of the Morton Company!
Mr. Stith. I knew in a general way that at that time their track,
their facilities, were limited in Hutchinson.
• Commissioner Peouty. Did you know what they were?
Mr, Stith. I had an indistinct idea that tliey were not veiw much.
Commissioner I'kouty. Did you know they reached that plant and
any other jdant?
Air. Stith. I knew they did, but
Commissioner Peouty. It was rather in contemplation that you
made this arrangement f
Sir. Stith. To some extent.
46
Coniinissionur Proutv. "What arraMgeinent do your different com¬
panies hero liave as to switching the cara to and from the salt plants?
!ä[r. Stitii. I do not think I can answer that re^ intelligently. It
is an iirrangement made by the opei-ating department. _ ¿
Commissioner Pkocti". Was that arrangement modified after you
made thi.s arrangement ?
Mr. Srmi. Xot that I know of.
Commiiisioner Pnom r'. Did you roduœ the cost in operation I
Mr. Stitii. I could not answer thát.
!Mr. IticiMnos. You do not have charge of that?
^Ir. Stitii. That k an operation I do not know about.
Mr. liiciiAHos. I understand you got some additional service that
you did not have over your own line? ' . _ . .
Mr. Stitii. We got a sciwice, or continued a service, which we
could not perfonn oureelvea That is, it wa.s continued by somebody
else for us.
Mr. IviciiABDS. After the organization of this Hutchinson and
Arkansas Hiver lîailniad Company could you have gotten connection
to those plants or with those tciminal lines without their consent?
Mr. Stitii. My information is that we could not.
Mr. Riciiaeds*. That was your belief at the time you made this
arrangement! .
Mr. Stitii. Yes, sir.
Witness excused.
J. F. IIoiJiEX, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
Sir. SIabciiaxd. Just state your name, occupation, and jikce of
residence.
Sir. IIoLDEX. J. F. Holden ; freight traffic manager Cliicago, Rock
Island and Pacific; Chicago, 111,
Mr. SIaeciiaxd. Will you identify the tariffs which I hand you I
(Hands witne^ tariffs.)
Mr. Holdex. This is Rock Island tariff Xa 11403 ; Interstate Com¬
merce Commission Xo. 3893; is.sued by the Rock Island company
over the several lines mentioned, applying from Hutchinson, Kans.,
to points on the Rock Island, R. O. and G., Denver, Enid and Gulf,
El Paso and Xortheastem, and the Enid and Anadarko railways, in
Kansas, Xebraska, Colorado, Indian and Oklahoma Ten-itories, Xew
Slexico, and Slissouri to Council Bluffs, Iowa, effective Slay 30, 1903.-
This is amendment Xo. 7 to the same tariff, same nmnber, making
same rates to iioints on the Choctaw line, and also a new rate from
Hutchinson, Kans., to Wichita, Kaim, i^ed December 1,1003.
This is a tariff of Rock Island issue—1189_8-A corrected—tissued by
the Cliicago, Rock Island and Padfic Railway from Hutchinson,
joint freight tariff with the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Rail¬
road on salt from Hutchinson, Kans., which provides for special,
rates on bulk salt, carloads, from Hutchinson, Kans., as named in the
first tariff referred to.
(The tariffs referred to are made a part of the record in this case.)
Commissioner Peoutit. Jiist read that once more, !âir. Holden.
Mr. Hoijiex (reading). " Provides that the special rates provided
on bullí salt, C. L., from Hutchinson, Kans., as named in Chicago,
Rock Island and Pacific, G. F. D. Xo. 11403 (Interstate Commerce
. 47
Commission Xo. G-389^, will also apply from Hutchinsonj Kans.,
in connection with tlie Hutchinson and Arkansas Eirer Eailroad."
Commissioner Peouty. And your tariff is only on bulk salt ?
Mr. HoLDEjf. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Phodtt. To the Missouri Eiver?
Mr. Holdex. They only apply to the Missouri Eiver.
Mr. Maeciiand. Ñow, Mr. Holden, state to the Commission upon
whose application the iiame of the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eirer
Eailroad was inserted in your tariffs.
Mr. Holdex. On the application of Mr. Joseph P. Tracy, general
manage of the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad Company.
Mr. ÄIahciiaxd. Has the Bock Island road allowed the Hutchin¬
son and Arkansas a division of the rate to the Missouri Eiver ?
Mr. Houjex. It has ; yes, sir.
Mr. JIaeciiaxd. Mhat division has it allowed?
3I1". Holdex. Twenty-five per cent of the through rate.
Mr. Maechaxd. MHiat information had you as to the existence of
this road, the Arlcansas Eiver Eailroad, at the time it was incorpo¬
rated in your tariff?
Mr. Holdex. WeU, I was not with the Eodr Island Company when
it was first incorporated into the^ tariff. That was in 1002, and I
have only been in my present position with the company since Jan¬
uary of this year.
Mr. klÁHCHAXD. Well, did you taire the trouble to inform youraelf
as to the existence or nonexistence of this road at any time ?
Mr. Houjex. Yes. The matter came up this spring—I think it
was in May. We had a discussion about this division, and then we
inquired as to what trades the Hutdiinson and Arkansas had, and
was informed on the subject.
Mr. jVIaeciiaxd. You say there was a discussion this spring. A
discussion with whom I
Mr. Holdex. Well, with our ojvn people, when I came to look up
this tariff. I happendl to come across it one day.
Mr. Maecilaxd. MTiich of your people?
Mr. Holdex. I do not Iniow which it was. I think maybe it was
the traffic man in "the office.
Mr. Maeohaxtd. "What was the result of that conference?
My. Holdex. The result of the œnference was that we thought we
had better cancel the tariff.
Mr. Maecilaxd. Did you cancel it?
Mr. Holdex. We did.
!Mr, ÄIaecilaxd. Did you renew it again ?
Mr. Holdex. We did.
Mr. Maechaxd. "?Vhat was your idea of renewing it? •
Mr. Houjex. It resulted from a inference afterwards with Mr.
Tratgr, who represented tliat my predec^or had put this tariff in for
. good and sufficient reasons and that I sliould not have taken it out
without having a further conference with him.
Mr. Maecilaxd. IVho was your predece.ssor ?
Mr. Holdex. J. M. Johnson.
Mr. Maechaxd. He is now associated with Mr. Bird?
Mr, Houjex. lie is in Mr. Bird's office ; Mr. Bird's assistant.
Mr. Maechaxd. The reason for your withdrawing this joint ar¬
rangement with the Arkansas Eiver was on account of information
obtained that there was no sudi road as that ?
48
3Ir. Holden. Xo; I would not say so.
]Mr. ^M.uíciiaxd. State what the reason was.
^Ir. IIoLDEN. reason was that I felt the divi.sion was excessive
for the service performed. ;
!Mr. il.vuciiAND. What did yoii conclude at the time was a reason¬
able and proper compensation for this switching service?
ilr. IIoLDEX. Well, I didn't come to any conclusions, because we
hadn't got down to a full discussion of the matter until Mr. Tracy
again saw me.
^Ir. JIauciiaxd. Who was present at this conference besides Mr.
Tracy and yourself?
l\Ir. IIoLDEX. I do not think there was anybody.
IMr. Maiíciiaxd. "Where was that conference held ?
!Mr. Holdex. In Chicago.
Mr. !Mai!Ciiaxd. At your office?
3Ir. IIoLDEX. Yes. sir.
Mr. ^Makciiaxd. IVhen ?
3Ir. rioLDEX. Some time in July.
!Mr. Makchaxu. Tracy insisted to you the pi'oper thing to do was to
restore this rate?
!Mi-. IIoLDEx. Yes, sir.
^Ir. Mauciiaxd. Does the tracks of the Kock Island reach the Mor¬
ton plant in Hutchinson?
i\lr. IIouJEX. We have a connection with the Hutchinson and
Arkansas.
!Mr. Mauciiaxd. How much of a haul is it from the terminus of
3-our line to the Morton plant over the Arkansas Kiver Railroad?
Jlr. IIoLDEX. A very short haul.
Mr. Mauciiaxd. Well, how much?
^Ir. Hou)ex. Well, it depends on where j'ou are going on the
Arkansas Kiver Railroad.
]Mr. ^Mauciiaxd. "Well, for instance, if j'ou know, to about as far as
the ^Morton jilant ?
ilr. Holdex. Well, the IMorton plant, of course, has tracks all
around it. We can get to the coal chutes of the Morton plant, and
probably there would be a half mile of service.
Mr. Mauciiaxd. A half mile's service?
Mr. Holdex. Yes, sir.
!Mr. [Mauciiaxd. The entire haul over the Hutchinson and Arkan¬
sas Kiver Railroad, then, is about a half mile long?
Mr. Holdex. Yes, sir.
Mr. [Mauciiaxd. [Mr. Holden, if has been testified to that the Mis¬
souri Pacific does not reach the line of the Hutchinson and Arkansas
Kiver Railroad, I believe, and that you frequently do switching for
the [Missouri Pacific in getting cars into the [Morton plant ?
[Mr. Holdex. I do not know whether we do it or not, but we are in .
position to do it.
Mr. jMauciiaxd. Do you know iHiether the Rock Island has re¬
ceived compensation in the form of switching charges for performing
this service?
[Mr. Holdex. They would not do it without.
[Mr. Mauciiaxd. Do you know what they have received per car
for switching?
49
Mr. Hoijjex. No, I do not know. I imagine it is $2 a car.
Mr. Maeoha2íd. Dont you Imow it is that?
Mr. Holdex. That is the ^neral price.
Mr. Mahchaxd. You say tiiat you would not perform Üiat prriœ
without compensation?
Mr. HoiaïEîf. N03 sir.
Commissioner Phoutt. Mr. Holden, what is the service for which
you aUow this division of 25 per cent?
Mr. Holden. Nothing but trackage.
Commissioner PmjtrTT. And from your tmck to the point whei®
you receive the salt from the Morton plant is how far—^how many
feet ?
Mr. Hoxajen. Oh, I think the farthest point where we receive salt^
your honoEj is, J should imagine, about six or seven car lengths.
Commissioner Phoutt. So, for the use of a track six or seven car
lengths' long you allow 25 per cent of the rate to the Missouri Hiver t
Mr. Holden. We do.
Commisáoner Pkiutt. Why did you do that?
Mr. Holden. Well, because we can not help ourselves, I guess.
Commissioner Phoutt. Because somebody else does it, and you
can not get the traffic unless you do it?
Mr. Houjen. That is about right. * , ,
Commi&sioner Phoutt. You did not think it was right ?
Mr. Houjen. My opinion would be that it is excessive. It depends
upon conditions, of course.
Witness excused.
Eherson Caeey, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
■Mr. Mahciiand. Just state your name, occupation, and place of
rraidence.
Mr. Cahet. My name is Emerson Carey; I live at Hutchinson,
Ivans. ; my occupation is manufacturing salt, among other things.
Mr. Mahciiand. How long have you been in the salt business in
Hutchinson ?
Mr. Cahet. I put the first salt on the market, I think, in July,
3901—June or July.
;Mr, Mahciiand'. What is the capacity, the daily capacity, of your
salt plant?
Mr, Cahet. Well, we rate it at 400 barrels a day. Of course, with
shut downs it would hardly be that.
Mr. SIahciiand. Do you produce and ship what is known as bulk
salt ?
" Mr, Caret. Yes, sir.
3iir. Mahciiand. Have you had occasion to ship any bulk salt
within the last year to Missouri Hiver points?
ilr. Cahet. Yes, sir.
■ Mr, SIahciiand. Can you state to the Commission, approximately,
what tonnage you have shipped to the IMissotó Hiver?
Sir. Caret. I have a memorandum; yea, sir.
(Witness produces and refers to memorandum.)
Commissioner Phoutt. Talking of bulk salt now entirely?
Mr. Caret. Yes, sir; that is bulk salt. From Januai^ to June,
1902, we ¿hippecl 2,147,000 pounds; from July to December, 1902,
7.S8A—05 M 4 ■
50
f)iir shipiiicnts were 2,959,000 pounds, a little over that; from Jan¬
uary to July, 1903, our shipments were 3,035,700 pounds, and from
July to Xovemher, 1903, -150,000 pounds.
^Ir. Maiîciiaxi). That is the amount of salt, bulk salt, that.'you
have shipped?
i\Ir. Caiíey. That is the bulk salt that we shipped during those
intervals. That mostly went to the Mis.souri River.
Jlr. ^Mahciiaxi). Could you state, approximatel}', what went to the
ilissouri River?
ilr. Caiíey. Well, the early shipments practically all went to the
jMissouri River; later we have been shipping some salt to Wichita.
iNIr. ÍMaiíciiaxd. Do you know a salt company here by the name of
the lîutcliinson Pure Salt Company?
ilr. Cakey. Yes, sir.
^Ir. iÍAiíCHAXD. Do you know the cai)acity of that company?
!Mr. Cauey. I could give a pretty close estimate.
^Ir. ÍMauciiaxd. What is it?
ilr. Cahey. From 250 to 300 barrels per daj'.
i\Ir. Maiîciiaxu. AVhat other salt comiianies are there operating in
and around Hutchinson, exclusive of the Hutchinson, Kansas, Salt
Company's works?
!Mr. Cakey. Tlic Union Ice and Salt Comjiany, with a cajiacitj' of
probably 200 barrels per day. The Barton Saft Company, prior to
their burning down, which was recently, had a capaciti' of about 500
barrels per day. The Anthony Salt Compaii}', at Anthony, Kans.,
have a capacity of, apjiroximately, 500 barrels per day.
Commissioner Pkouty. How far is that from here?
Jlr. Carey. That is about 90 miles, I think, south, on the Santa Fe.
Orient or Oriental Salt Company. The Sterling Salt Company,
located 19 miles west on the Santa Fe and the Missouri Pacific, have
a capacity of about 400 barrels dail^'. The Ellsworth Salt Companj-,
located about 50 miles northwest, on the Union Pacific and 'Frisco,
have a capacity of about 400 barrels per day.
^Ir. Marciiaxd. Do you know whether any of these salt companies
are manufacturing and shipping bulk salt?
Mr. Carey. They all do, I think.
]\Ir. Marciiaxd. Mr. Carey, I believe you erected what is known as
a dairy mill; that was for the manufacture of salt used in dairy
purposes?
j\Ir. Carey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marciiaxd. Were you discouraged in the building of that mill
by any of the officers of the Hutchinson Salt Comjiany? And, if so,
state by whom, and what the conversation was.
Mr. "Carey. Well, I was not discouraged particularly about that
particular venture directly by the officers. It was only "through Mr.
Barton. I was discouraged, however, in building my plant origi¬
nally by one of the officers of the Hutchinson Salt Company.
Mr. Marchand. MTio was that officer?
]\Ir. Carey. Mr. Vincent.
IMr. M.arciiand. VJiat did he say?
Mr. Martin. We object to that.
Commissioner Prouty. How do you claim that would be material,
Mr. IMarchand?
51
llr.^I^CHAííD. I want to show bj this witn^ that by means of
intimMation on the part of this salt trust Mr. Carey was—that Mr.
Vincent at least tried to induce Mr. Carey not to go into the salt
business.
Commissicner Peowty. Well, they threatened to run you out if
you did go inî
Mr. Caeey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Maechaxd. I expect to diow by this witness that they pxpect
'to put down the price of salt and run him out of business. In other'
words, this salt company does not propre to tolérate competition.
That is what I purpose showing by tJiis witness, your honor.
Commissioner Aotmr. That is a little remote, Mr. Marchand,
but the witness may just answer that question and state in a very
general way.
Mr. Gaeey. Mr. Vincent undertook to discourage me on building
my plant, and made the statement that they had, approximately,
200,000 barrels of salt in their warerooms; that it was charged off:
and that they did not propose to allow me or anyone ete to build
a salt plant and cut down tlieir output, as they had more than enough
plantâ to supply the demand, and that me starting a plant meant them
shutting one down, and thw did not propose to stand that.
Commissioner Äoüty. Did he my anything in that connection
about freight rates or freist facilities ?
Mr. Cabey. Ko, sir; there was nothing-said. ..
Mr. LIaechand. You can make any statement that is pertinent
to this investi^ tion which you desire to. "
]Mr. Caeey. I would state this, your honor, that it would appear •
that the Hutdiinson and Arkansas Biver Bailroad Company, wlxich
is practically the Hutchinson, Ivans., Salt Company, or the so-called
trust . ■■
Commissioner Peouty. That is a pretty important fact. You
may state how you know it, or what makes you thmk m.
Sir. Caeey. \Vliat makes me think so is this: That Mr. Holden
stated that he canceled those tariffs about the time the Elkins bill
passed, and about that time the bulk salt to the Missouri River,
which was under contract by the Hutchinson, ICans., Salt Company,
nearly all moved^ from Chicago, and it appeared to move from Cln-
cago until sudx time as these rates were put back in effect, according
to this testimony here, I would judge. Con.sequently there was
bound to be a d£«3e affiliation between this railroad and this salt
company, because if we have a contract with a person the mere fact
that the division of the through rate* of the hfissouri Padflc or some
other road was changedj even though the freight rate remained the
same, thw would not ^vert any of the salt shipmsits, and it cer¬
tainly indicated that this salt company got this division or they would
not have diverted them shipments; and tíio shipments continué,
. I would judge from the te.stimony, to move from the East until
this 25 per cent division was allowed again. And I would state
this, that in the event of this salt company securing this 25 per
cent of the through rate to points on the Missouri River, which, as
stated by Mr. Stith, compensation would net an income of not less
than 25 or 30 per cent on Üic inv®tm®it over and above tlie actual
cost of operating the plant; it would certainly put any independent
operator out of business. We do not daim tliat we can lose 25 or
52
30 i^cr cent of our profit per annum and still do business. We could
not do it. And for that reason alone I certainly think that this
combination, if jircssed to its conclusion, would drive us out of
business. It could not be any other Avay.
IMr. ÍIaiícii-axi). State, IMr. Carey, Avhether your market has been
restricted since the promulgation of this tariff, this joint tariff with
the Hutchinson and Arkansas lîiver Kailroad.
Mr.i Caiîey. Yes, sir. I claim that these tariffs made out to the
iMissouri ltiver of $2.10 per ton and the freight rate of $2 per ton—
$4.10 deliA'ered—Avould not permit us to enter that market, and con¬
sequently our bulk-salt shipments fell off from about 3,000,000 pounds
in six months to about 500,000 pounds in nearly five months. I would
say this, that I believe tliat the independent manufacturers in the
field can manufacture salt, eA-erything being equal, as cheaply as the
Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company can manufacture it; and Avere Ave
permitted to haA'e tiie same freight rates or the same divisions, there
aa'ould be no reason aa'hy the independent companies Avould not build
up a good, big, strong business. The salt area is 150 to 200 miles
long, and it is 5 miles Avide; and, as Mr. Vincent stated, it only takes
a few thousand dollars to build a salt plant, the market Avill be sup¬
plied a-ery largely by the independent people, unless the Hutchinson,
Kans., Salt Company, or some other large compauA", is protected by
a rebate or something or other Avhere'by they receÍA*e reA'enues, which
the independent companies could not secure.
Mr. Makciiaxd. HaA'e you e\'er made application to any of the rail¬
road companies for a lesser rate to the ^Missouri EiA'er than preA'ailed,
say, prior to the existence of this so-called Arkansas EiA'er Eailroad?
ilr. Cakea'. Xo, sir; I neA'er complained of the rates to any official
of anj' road, either before or since; and any inquiry I haA'e made was
onl}' to mend the matter and put us all on an equal basis.
Mr. Maeciiaxd. You haA'e never asked to have the rates reduced ?
Mr. Caeea'. Xo, sir.
Mr. Marciiaxd. Is there anything else you want to add?
iMr. Carea'. I would say this : The independent operators, prior to
the issuance of this division, I think, furnished somewhere from 15 to
30 per cent of the bulk salt to the ^Missouri EiA'er points, and that
since this division has been going on practically no salt moA'es from
the independent companies to Missouri EiA'er points.
Commissioner Protjtv. We will take a recess now until half
past 1. • _
(At 12 noon the Commission thereupon adjourned until 1.30 p. m.)
after recess.
1.30 o'clock f. m.'
Commissioner Prouty. You may take the stand again, IMr. Carey.
Mr. JIarciiaxd. You can just resume your testimony. There is
a memorandum of some points that you Avant to testify to.
(Witness is handed memorandum by Mr. Marchand.)
ilr. Careat. Mr, Vincent made a statement as to the cost of bulk
salt, Avhich was' a'ery much contrary to our experience. In my
opinion, paying regular tariff on coal, the loAvest price for coal, saít
could not be produced any less than from $2.10 to $2.25 per ton;
and taking Mr. Vincent's statement of 90 tons per day at the Morton
53
pknt, -wMch pitoduces a little over 1,000 barrels, the coal bill would
be $247.50 per day, at $2.75 per ton, whidi is the present list jjrice
on dack such as they bum. A conservative laboy bill for manufac¬
turing salt where it is done by machinery would be $55 per day. •
Mr. ûJUktiîî. I want Mr. Morton to hear this testimony.
Commissioner PmnjTT. We shall be glad to wait until he comes in.
Mr. hÍAECHAífD. I want to adr Mr. laiicent one question.
Commissioner Pboutt. I think vou had better wait, hlr. Marchand.
(Mr. Morton having returned the hearing was resumed.)
Mr. hiAHCHAKD.'Mr. CarCT, you may go on.-
Commissioner Phoutt. lou may go Mck, Mr. Carey, and begin
with the cost of the 90 tons of coal.
Mr. Caeet. In Mr. Vincent's t^timony he stated that he figured
the cost of salt at $1 .25 per ton, and in my experience I have found
it very much, different. Our cost, we have %ured—counting coal
at present list price and.freidit at the tariff—would be more than
$2 per ton. And taking Mr. Vincent's statement that they burn 90
tons per day, and that they produce a little more than 1,000 barrels
of salt per day, the figures would be about as follows : Ninety tons of
coal, at $2.75, would be $247.60 ; a very reasonable labor diarge
would be 5 cents per banrel for putting-this in the packing room,
which would be $55 per day ; ând the repair bill, current repairs—
1 cmt per barrel would be veiw modest—which would be $11 per day,
making à total expenditure or $313.50 per day; and allowing 1,100
barrcls daily, which is in excess, 1 tlünk, from tlie testimony, of
their ou^ut, would make a cost of 28^ (^ts per barrel, which figures
in tons $1.99^. This all dumped into the packing room would not
contemplate anything for deterioration of the plant, nor interest on
the money invested in the plant, nor the taxes, nor office expenses, or
anything of that kind. I want to correct that for this reason, that
I woula not want our freight friends to think that we want $2.60
per ton for a product that costs $1,25 per ton, which the testimony
here -would indicate. ' Because you take $4.10 delivmed is the cheap¬
est price that has been made for some time on salt to Kansas City,
for instance; deducting the regular tariff of $2 would leave $2.10
for the salt, and adding the 50 cents of a division of freight rates
would make $2.G0 for the product, which, according to Mr. Vincent's
statemmt, would c^t $1,25. The profit -would be almost equal to
the total compensation of the railroad company.
Commiffiiioner Rroutt. You may state liow mudi, Mr. Carey, it
has cost you to produce salt, leaving out the depreciation of your
plant, interest on your investment, and so forth.
Mr. Caret. Our cost is about $2 per ton.
Commissioner Peouty. IVhen ivas your iilant constructed ?
Mr. Gaiuîy. Two and a half years a^.
• Commissioner Pihiuty. Is it a modenf plant!
Älr, Caeey. I should say yes, sir. • .
Commi&sioner IhKJUTY. Do you know of any ¡ilant that—do you
know how to construct a plant to-day of that size that would produce
salt any cheaper!
Mr. Carey. No, sir, • I would say that my salt plant produces
salt with less labor per barrel of salt than any salt plant in the field.
Commissioner Peotjtt. ■ Suppose you were to double the capacity of
that plant; would that diminish the cost of production, leaving out
all ollice exiKUises, interest, and other expenses?
ilr. Caiîkv. No, .sir; it would not materially change it, because
every man- on the plant works to the full time limit and full capacitv.
Commissioner Phodty. What do you estimate to be a fair profit
o\-er and above tho cost of production as you give it, taking into
accfjimt those other exi>euses, in the manufacture and ^le of salt?
How much per barrel?
^fr. Caiiev. I would say 50 cents per ton would be a fair profit,
or from 5 to ID cents per barrel would be a fair profit, over, of course,
all running and legitimate expenses chargeable to the plant.
Commissioner Peooty. So that in your opinion this division whidt
was allowed to the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Com¬
pany would amount to a fair jirofit to the manufacturer of salt?
]kir. Cakea-. Yes; sir; I would say it did.
Commissioner IhtouTi*. If one manufactiu-er was producing and
selling salt for what it cost him, another manufacturer who had the
benefit of that division would make an enormous pi'ofit?
3klr. C.*nEV. Yes, sir; would make fram 25 to SO per cent on his
in\"estment.
Commissioner Peocty. Would it be possible, in your opinion, for
you as a manufacturer of salt to compete with another manufacturer
who had the advantage of that division f
!Mr. Caeev. It would not, if he used it for the purpose—that is, if
he sold his salt*down to a close margin, he could make money while
I would not be able to run at all.
Commissioner Phdütt. You testified that when you first bepin
operations here you sold a considerable quantity of salt on the Mis¬
souri River—bulk salt?
Mr. Caeey. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. To Avhoni is that bulk salt sold ?
!Mr. Carey. To the packers.
Commissioner Pkoxtty. When you tegan it paid about what price—
you n^ not state this unless you want to—about what was the seR-
ing priœ of bulk salt on the Slissouri River?
llr. Cakey. It was from $2.20 to $2.40 per ton, plus the Jfreight, 20
cents per ton.
Commissioner Peouty. Since you began operations here the freight
rate has been all along the same?
Mr. Carey. It has not changed.
Commissioner Peouty. Do you know how that has been in the
past?
Mr. Carey. Pi-ior to my coming into the field three years ago, in
July or August, the fireight on bulk rait was advanced jfrom 6J cents
to 10 cents per hundred.
Commissioner Peouty. Of course, our tariffs will show this; but Í
ask whether you Imow for how long a time that raté of 6| cents a
hundred was in effect?
Mr. Cahey. It was a great many yetra. I think that some older
salt man would be able to tell definitely.
Commissioner Pœurr. Can you teU what is the principal competi¬
tion at the Missouri River in buUc salt ?
Mi". Carey. We regard the Hutchinson and Arkansas as our only
competition.
05
Comiiiissioner Peouti". Is not tJie competition from eastern points
very material Î ,
Mr. Carey. This is, 1 think, only for the purpose of bringine the
railroads to it, and deliveries are made at a sacrifice. I do not Slink
tlie tariffs in effect would contemplate deHve^ of the salt from east¬
ern points to the Missouri Eiver points. I think that when salt
moves from there it is for the purpose of getting these divisions
reinstated.
Commissioner Peotjty. Do you know how the cost of manufactur-
mg salt at Hutchinson compares with the cost of manufacturing salt
in Michigan ?
Mr. Carey. Well, in a ^neral way I think it is lœ there.
Commissioner Proxity. Xess in Midiigan ?
Mr. Carey. Yes, sir.
Commisrioner Peooty, Don't they nse at a great many points in
Michigan fuel from their lumber mflls, so that their fuel bin is leffi?
Mr. Carey. Tliey do in many plaœs, but in othera they burn coal. ■
Commissioner Peouty. Except for the item of fuel, do you know
of any other item that is cheaper in Michigan than in Hutchinamf
Mr. Carey. K"o, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. Is their brine any better there!
Mr. Carey. No, sir; it could not be.
Commissioner Peouty. Do they get it any cheaper?
Mr. Carey. No, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. So that the advantage, then, is in the cost
of fud; and the, cost of fuel is a xery important item?
Mr; Caboey. It is a very important item. We have figured that
if we get, one time with another, a result of 12 barrels of salt with 1
^ton of coal we are getting pxid rœults; that is, the ordinary slack
' coal. Very many more times under than over 12 barrels per ton.
Commismoner Prouty. Mr. Biddle testified this morning as to the.
competition of Liverpool salt.
Mr. Carey. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. IVhat do you know about that, if anytiiing?
Mr. Carey. The Liverpool salt is .shaped to packers for the pur¬
pose of salting the m^ts for export to England and Ireland, and for
that purpose only, as they require meats tliat they buy to be salted
with their own salt; and the dut}' on that salt is remitted when the
meats get bade. As far as that being competition is ooncerned, it is
out of the question. In fact, a great deal of the English salt is pro¬
duced and shipped from Hutchinson. We have inquiries very often
for Englidi salt, and very often .ship it.
Commissioner Prouty. "What is the duty on saltf
Mr. Carey. I could not say.
Commi-ssioner Prouty, "Vvliat is the price of English salt in the
• Missouri Iii ver; do you know?
Mr. Carey. No, sir; I do not know. It usually come.s over kiln-
dried, and it is rather expensive, as it is prepare and shipped, on
aœount of the long voyage and long freight rates.
Commissioner I^outy. Do you know anything about what the salt
is worth in England (
Mr. Carey. No, sir; I do not.
Commissioner Prouty. I can not think of anything else I care
to ask Mr. Carey'.
56
]Mr. ^Makciiand. Do you own a siding into your works?
]Mr. Cahev. No^ sir.
]Mr. ]\[AKcnANr). Who owns it? .♦
jVIr. Cakea'. The ISIissouri Pacific. *
Mr. äIarchani). Have you any inoinoranduin there that you
wish
!Mr. Carev. I have a memorandum in regard to the salt. I would
say that the large amount of bulk salt moving to Missouri River
points and all otlicr points as shipped by the Hutchinson, Ivans.,
Salt Company originates at other points than on this so-called
"Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad." For instance, the
East "Works is described here with a capacity of 500 barrels a day;
the G. and H. Avith a capacity of 025
Commissioner 1'routy. I Avas going to ask 3Ir. Vincent that very
question. Is ^Ir. Vincent in the room?
IMr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouti'. I Avant to ask you if the bulk salt.which j'ou
have shipped—Avhich your company has shipped—to the ilissouri
RiA'cr in the last two or three years has all been produced at what is
called the Morton mill or aa-hether it has been produced at your
various mills?
jMr. Vincent. The larger portion of it at the IMorton. We ship all
the bulk salt to packers. We have not shÍ2}ped any from our East
W^orks. We have not shipped a car from any of the other Avorks
unless there is something peculiar avIia' aa'c liaA'e to load there.
Commissioner Prouty. As a general rule, you make shipment from
the ilorton mill of bulk salt?
j\Ir. Vincent. Yes, sir..
Commissioner Prouty. At times you make shipments from your
other mills ?
]Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. Very seldom, hoAveA*er. The jiackers re¬
quire the grade of salt made at the Morton Avorks.
Commissioner Prouty. Is that a better grade?
Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. Vlien you shiji this salt—this bulk salt—
do you, as assistant manager of the Hutchinson and Arkansas Ri^er
Railroad, make any report to the other railroads or make" any rejiort
to your company in Chicago ? . .
IMr. Vincent. None AvhateA-er.
Commissioner Prouty. You pay no attention to that at all ?
JMr. Vincent. No, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. "Wlio instructs you whether to malee shiii-
ments from the JMorton mills or from your other mills of bulk salt?
Mr. Vincent. Mr. Morton instructs us to make our shijiments to
the JMissouri River from the Morton Avorks, because the iiackers ask
for that salt. We have had salt from the other Avorks refused because
it did not come from the JMorton works.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you knoAv anything about how the ac¬
counts are kept betAveen the Hutchinson and Arkansas and those
other railroads? •
JMr. Vincent. I do not knoAv.
Commissioner Prouty. Now you may proceed, JMr. Carey.
Mr. Marchand. Proceed, Mr. Carey.
57
llr. Oähet. i was making a statranent in regard to the biiUc salt
shipped by us, and our recoras show a great felling off in the last fire
montltô; our raintracta expired during July. We had contracts witli
the Missouri Hiver packers, and on account of the price of coal having
advanced and the extremely low priœ made by the Hutchinson, Kans.,
Salt Company we were unable to renew those contracts, and have,
consequently, shipped very little salt since that time.
Commissioner Rioxjtv. Since what time ?
]ilr. Cahey. Sinœ July, this last year. Our salt before tliat went
out on the year before's contract.
Älr. ^lâETtN. As this testimony consists largdy of opinions with
regard to the salt business here, I will aslc Mr. Carey whether or
■not he liM any oWection to Morton asldng him some questions!
Commi^ioner Peotttt. Certainly not.
. Mr. Moetok. Mr. Carey, have you any idea as to the avera^ price
per barrel of" salt here in the past four years as compared with the
four yeaiu previously ? Has it been higher or lower?
Mr. Caeet. I think that it has bœn higher; I think it is higher.
Mr. Mobtqk. What is the present price of barrel salt?
Mr. Caeey. From 65 to 80 cents, according to the t^ritory it
mov^ in. _ ■ '
Mr- jSIoeton. Ton sliip most of your salt to Kansas and Oklahoifin ?
. jMt. Caeey. We sliip the larger part of it.
IMr. Mdrtox. The price of barrel salt at Kansas City and Okla¬
homa is 80 cents. You say tliat Mr. Vincent testified this morning
that the cost of the banrel and the packing is about 25 œnta.
Mr. Caeey. I didn't say that. ,
Mr. Mortoe. "What is the cost of your barrel?
Mr. Caeey. I would say about 28 cents at present prices; the coop¬
erage is a little bit higher now.
Mr. JMoetok. Eighty cents per barrel, less 28 cents, would net you
about $3.08 a ton at your worlcs. Kow, are you anxious for sale at
$2.60 under those circumstances?
• Mr. Caeey. No, sir.
•Mr. Mobton. You prefer to have tlie Ivansas and Oklahoma trade?
■ !Mr. Caeey. .Yes, sir. ' . "
Air. Moeton. You have lienefited by Üie price that has prevailed to
the extent of marketing your product in that field?
Mr. Carey. I would .say, in explanation of that, that salt was 57
cents per barrel until a few months ago, when, through tlie grace of
the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt. Company, they allowed the'price to ad¬
vance to 80 per barrel in certain territory.
Mr.'MoBTosr. You promptly participated ? ^
Mr. Caeey. Yes, sir; and are ready at all times to do so.
Mr. Morton. You say your salt casts $2 per ton, and you are get.-
tíng $3 .98. That looks as though your profit was larger than you
would bo willing to accept.
Mr. Carey. Yes, sir; but that we consider only as a temporary
truce. It was put into effect when Mr. Barton's salt plant burned
down here, when the output was reduced materially, and we hope it
will continue; but we really can not hope for it very long. It has not
been our past experience, tecause when I started to build my plant
salt was 95 cents in Ivansas and $1.05 in Nebraskaj and by the time
I got it done it was worth 57 cents per barrel—a simple, trilling de-
58
(liirtion of $40 jxr car nnil iiliant $800 a day on an output like the
lIutchinscnn-KaiiH., Salt Company has.
Mr. Moktox. Since you got to gíúng they have advanced the pries?
Mr. G. iKEY. Yen, sir.
!Mr. Moirrox. A part of your profits are now invested in Texas?
Mr. CxuEY. I am investing in Texas; yes, sir. I am aasured by the
railroad commissioners there that my tariff will be just the same as
sir. Jiorton's.
Mr. Momox. They have a short-line railroad there?
Mr. CAUEi^ Yes, sir. And I understand that Mr. Morton has to
.ship 00 per cent of his product over that, and it is oidy 9 miles long.
Sir. SIoRTOX. That idiort line maintaijis a division over all the
lines?
Sir. Carev. It does not over the Texas and Pacific.
!Mr. Mortox. It is a competitor of the Texas and Pacific? But
with all the other lines it has a division ?
Mr. Carey. Yes, sir,
Sir. Moirrox. You stated that the capacit}' of the outsiders was
2,700 barrels per day. How many cars do you suppose are shipped
from this field in a jmr f How many cars of salt t
Mr. Carey. IVeíl, I sliould think about—probably 12,000. I
should think there were about 30 cars per day moved out of this
field.
;Mi*. Mortox. That would be about 0,000 cars; they don't ship
Sundays.
Mr. Cabea'. I am talking about every day. It would be more than
that ; it would be something over that, I think.
Mr. Moktox. Something over 9,000 cars. Mr. Marchand, if it is
in order for you to ask the railroads to furnish the total number of
cars, for your own use
Commissioner Prouty. I had intended to do that.
Mr. !Mortox. I think it will be advisable.
Now, Mr. Carey, you estimate that the capacity of these people
outside of the tnist, which has made all these high prices for you
gentlemen to take the benefit of, is about 2,700 barrels per day. • I
figured that up in Carloads, 100 barrels to a car—9,360 cars; so the
trust would have to close up. -
Mr. Carey. They would have to close up.
Mr. Mortox. There would be 360 cars you could not furnish.
Have you lost any money during the past year?
;Mr. Carey. No, sir.
Mr.'IkloRTOX. You have made money?
Mr. Carey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mortox. So that Mr. Vincent's threat tliat you speak of, that .
he would close you up, has not come to pass at aU?
Mr. Casey. I took that Just like a good many other statements; I
took it for what it was worth. •
Mr. Mortox. Now, you are getting $3.93 per barrel for salt, and
yet you are anxious to incorporate, a railroad, get a division of 50
cents, pay a freight rate of $1.50, and sell your sMt at $3.60 a ton? ■
Jlr. Caret. I would increase my plant if I could make such a con¬
tract.
Mr. Mortox. Yon spoke of your plant being a modem plant, and
you stated that you muid malm 12 barrels a 'ton. Now, you know
59
Tour plant is not a modra-n plant. Yon Imow yon can mala a cjon-
tract nrith, ox* any other xxianufacturer can make a contract with,
responsible firms who produœ 30 barrels under certain conditions.
Mr. Caket. Yo, sir; I do not.
Mr. Morton. I can gite toxi the names of parties who can. With
fiOjCKlO pounds of coal it wiíl evaporate—^th^ will guarantee yon 30
barrels in a double vacxxum pan to a toix of coal.
Mr. Caret. That was xmaer tœt ?
Mx'. SIoeton. It was in Ohio under a contract.
Mr. Caret. That is a vacuum
Mr. Marchand. Mlxo is testifying, Mi". Morton or the witness I
Mr. Caret. Furthermore, he is referring to a .vacuum pan, which
are not a success on account of the excessive amomxt of scale.
Mr. Morton. Ai-e you posted on vacuum pans?
Mr. Caret." I know you ha\ e got one shut down here.
Mr. SIoRTON. Do you loxow that the vacxxum pan which has not
been a success here has likewise failed in Midxigan?
Mr. Caret. I do not know anything aboxxt it ; no, sir.
Mr. Morton. There are men m the room who will testify that this
is a fact.
You make 12 barrels to a ton of coal and claim to have a modern
mill. You speak of having had contracts with packers. YHiat
packers had you a contract with I
Mr. Camt. I had a contract with the S. and S.
Mr. Morton. How much salt do they use in a year I
Mr. Caret. I could not tell you now.
Mr. Morton. You testified that your output of bxxlk salt was aboxxt
1,500 tons last year, but that this year for the past six months you
have only sold about 225 tons.
Md Caret. Yes, air.
Mr. Morton. The reason of that was that yoxx were getting higher
prices for barrel salt!
Mr. Caret. I had no space to put it.
Mr. Morton. You were running to your capacity in bulk salt!
Mr. Caret. Yes, sir.
Mr. Morton, You are now?
Mr. Caret'. Yes, sir,
Mr. Morton. You have been?
Mr. Caret. Yes, sir.
Mr. Morton. Do yoxx know of any idle people bore outside of the
Hutchinson, Kans., company ?
Mr. Caret. Yes, dr. ,
Mr, Morton. MÍxo are they?
Mr, Caret. The Anthony Salt Company report that they are not
running at fxill capadty; the EUsworth Salt Company, one-half
capacity; the Sterling have not run more than one-third of their
capacity in the last year.
Mr. Morton. IVhy is the Anthony company not running full
capaci^?
Mr. Caret. They have not reported to me ; I do not know.
Mr. Morton. MTiy is it that the Ellsworth is not running?
Mr. Caret. I do not Icnow.
Mr. Morton. It is not bemuse they can not sell the salt?
GO
llr. Cakex". I heard him say yesterday he wished he could sell two
cars a day. Of course, the Barton plant is out of commission entirely
now on account of beinf? burned down. ,*
Mr. ^lonTON. Tlio Ifutchinson, Ivans., company has considerable
idle capacity, has it not f
Air. Caret. I understand they have.
âlr. HÍOKTOK. Probably more' than the entire capacity of you out¬
siders?
Sir. Caret. Well, I do not think they have. I think hardly. Xo;
I do not hink they have a capacity of 2,500 barrels a day idle. Or
course, in re^rd to the movement of salt, salt moves very readily in
the fall of the year; That is understood, and plants that may be shut
down in the spring or in the summer are usually run in the winter
time.
Sir. SfoRTON. I think that is all I care to ask him.
Commissioner Pnotm'.. Anv other inquiries!
Sir. IklARCiiAxn. Tliat is alf, your honor.
Commissioner Proutt. Yoiî do not seem to Icnow much about
these vacuum pans. Do you understand they are a patented venture!
Sir. Caret. I think so. The oiie that was pjtt up here was a pat¬
ented invention. As I understand, it is a steam vacuum. I . think
that was investigated by the paclnng company before they leased
their plant and quit manufacturing. They had ample funds, and
tliey did not go into the thing on account, as I understood, from Wr.
Underwood, that the brine
Commissioner Protttt. Xeveir mind. That is all.
Witne.ss excused.
Commissioner Proutt. Sir. Holden, Mr. Stith, and 3Ir. Biddle, I
wish you would file a statement showing the amounts that have been
paid this Hutchinson and Arlcansas Eiver Kailroad Company by way
of divisions, and I would like to have each one of thœe statements
contain the date and amount of payment, and added to it a general
statement how the payment was made. If the payment has been
made by chedt, I wish you would select and return with your state¬
ment a specimen check as near the first day of September last as you
can get; and you could also furnish without much trouble a State¬
ment sliowing the number of ears of salt taken out of Hutchinson
over eacli line. Furnish that statement at the same time. Each one -
for his own line. '
Sir. SIartix. I have brought those blueprints. They are quite
voluminous
Commissioner Proutt. There does not seem to be any question as
to the ftiets of the line being surveyed. That is all I Vtppose they
sliow.
Mr. Maetiîï. Profile of the road, and everything of that Innd.
Commi^ioner Proutt. As I understand the testimony, the expense
of constructing the road was estimated?
Mr. Martiiï. Well, they spent more money, perhaps, than Mr. Vin¬
cent told of. Mr. Joy Morton here loiowa the amount, and you can
just ask him a few questions about it, if you please.
Commiœioner Proutt. Call some other witness, Mr. Marchand.
61
E. E. Bahtox*, having been duly sTvorn, testified as follo^va:
Mr. ^JlABCHAxn. "What is your name?
Mr. Bahtox. Edward E. Barton.
Mr. !Mabchaxd. And where do you reside ?
Mr. Babtox. Hutchinson, Kans.
Mr. Mabchaxd. "What is your occupation ?
Mr. Babtox. Salt manufacturer.
Sir. Mabchaxd. "Where is your plant ? ■
Mr. Babtox. It is located in the southeastern part of the dty,
along the line of the Missouri Pacific, Rock Island and Santa Fe
switching tracks.
Mr. iiAECHAXD. I believe it was burned down recently?
Mr. Babtox. On August 15.
. Mr. Mabchaxd. Xow, Mr. Barton, you may make any statement
you wisli to the Commission with respect to tliis case.
Mr. Babtox. Well
Mr. ;Mabtix. If your honor please, I do not object to an argument
like Mr. Carey made, but perhaps the witness ought to be told to state
the concrete ract& rather than make an argument. Älr. Carey's
Commissioner Pboutt. Are you rebuilding your plant, Mr. Bar¬
ton !
Mrl Babtox. I am.
Commissioner Pboutv. lYliat kind of a plant are you putting in.
now Ï ■ .
Mr. Babtox; "What is known as the Graner s^tem.
Coimnisaioner Pbouty. "What kind of a pan does Üiat use!
Mr. Babtox. That is a steam plant; the same as the Morton plant.
Commi^oner Pbouty. And the evaporation is done by the appli¬
cation of steam in tiibes?
Mr. Baktox. In pipes—coiled 2^ or 3 inch pipes.
Commissioner Piotmr, You put that in in preference to the
vacuum plant?
. Mr. Babtox. Yes, sir. The vacuum plant has never been suc¬
cessful in this field by reason of the large amount of calcium, gypsum,
and magnesia that tnere is in the brine.
Commissioner Pbouty. At the present price of coal and labor, what
AVill it cost you to manufacture salt when that plant is completed?
• Mr. Babtox. In the neighborhood of $2 a ton. But there is a dif¬
ference between Mr. "Vincent's $1.25 and my price of $2 per ton by
reason of the low price.at Avhich he purchases the coal; consequently
we can not undertake to manufacture salt as cheaply as they can
over at the Morton plant. The plants are similar so far as tlie process
of manufacture is concerned, although that is a larger plant, pro¬
ducing 1^100 barrels, while mine will produce only 500.
Commissioner Pbouty. "What do you use"for fuel—bIbcIc coal?
Mr. Babtox. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pbouty. "Where does it come from!
3klr. Babtox. Off the Little Rock and Fort Smith division of tlio
Missouri Pacific.
Commissioner Pbouty. Is that in the vicinity of Widiita?
Mr. Cabby. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pbouty. What does that coal cort_ you at the mine
or at your works?
62
ilr. Bauïox. Well, that coal cost mc $2 a ton before on the Bur¬
lington; at present it is worth—I do not know %vhat it is worth at
tlio proaent time.
Conunissioner Piiutrrv. You would use the slack from that rainp I
Mr. Barton. Yes, sir.
Connnissioner Proütv. "Wliat do yon estimate is a fair profit to
inannfactiiru salt? I mean, now, the profit over and above tlie actual
cast of j)roducing salt; not taking into consideration the exiJemse of
selling it, the interest on your plant, oifice cxiKuises, and so forth.
Mr. BAnroN. I should' think we should have 30 cents per ton
for salt.
Coininissioncr Prouti*. ^Ir. Morton indicates that you are getting
in the vicinity of $2.
^Ir. Barton. That is for bulk salt. Five, 10, or even 15 cents
lier barivl, is not an e.xtraoi-dinary profit for salt.
Connnissioner Prouty. Have you in the past sold bulk salt on the
Missouri lîiix'r?
^Ir. Barton. Yes, sir; I sold bulk salt up to the time of the divi¬
sions that were given the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad.
Commissioner PiaiuTV. To what extent did you sell it before ?
Mr. Barton. I sold to the Swift Packing Company, which is the
largest, or the second largest, on the river. They have large plants
at Omaha and South Omaha. The Armour Packing Company is the
larger, and the other is the second largest. I also had sold large
amounts of salt to the Gudahy Packing Company. In years gone
by I used to sell the Armour Packing Company. I always sold
probiihly inore than my proportion of bulk salt.
Commissioner Prouti". From where did you meet the most com¬
petition, as far as you know i
Mr. Barton. Tlie Santa Fe Railroad.
'Commissioner Pnourr. Tliere has been some intimation that the
Hiitcliinson and Arkansas River Railroad has been mixed up in the
manufacture of salt.
Mr. Barton. Well, my connection with salt dates back to 1S92,
and at that time the Santa- Fe Railroad was always behind the Hutch¬
inson. There has been a change of ownership, tut it is the same old
company.
Commissioner Proütt. And what do you know about competi¬
tion from the East; from eastern points?
Mr. Barton. We have had very considerable competition on barrel
salt from the East, by reason oi the fact that the Burlington and
the Rock Island maintained—rather the Rock Island maintains the
same rate from ChicaOT to any Nebraska point that they hare—that
is, from Hutchinson, Kans., to any Nebraska point. For instance,
I think our rate at the present time is 18f cents from Hutcliinson,
Kans., to Beatrîœ, "Nebr., and it is the Kime rate from Chicago to
Beatriœ, Nebr.
Commissioner Peotjtv. How is it with bulk salt? Do you meet
competition in bulk salt on the Missouri River to eastern points?
Mr. B.\nTON. The only bulk-salt trade we ever lost by reason of
any actual competition of the salt itself, and not through competi¬
tion with the railroads, or through a desire of some one to manipu¬
late the salt or manipulate the rate—the only bnlk-salt trade that we
have lost in the past ten years has been Sioux Cily, fcwa. We used
m
to dear up there with our salt. We have had the salt trade under
ordinary—mean ordinary, not extraordinary—conditions at the
upper nver, beginning at Omaha. .
^ Commissioner Proutv. "tWiat do you know of Liverpool competi¬
tion to the Misamri Biverl '
Mr. Baetox. I think the Liverpool competition is like the Hutchin¬
son and Artonsas River Railroad—^it is a dream.
Commissioner PROtrrr. There seems to have been something pretty
substantia! in the movement of salk Mr. Biddle says it moved in
large quantities into the Missouri River.
Mr. Baktox. Liverpool salt is used by a packer when he is pacldng
mmt for export, and he is under contract to use Liverpool salt for
the paddng of that meat- An Englishman or an Irishman or a
Welshman can tell the difference between a piece of meat that is
cured with Kansas salt or with English salt merely upon his tasting
it. The packer is obliged to buy that Liverpool salt at whatever
cost, and he buys it under no other circumstances whatever.
Commissioner Prnurv. Do you know how the ijrice compares?
Mr. Baetdx. Well, there was a price of $3.50 a ton and the freight
on salt going to the river, and the Armour Padîing Company bought
50 cars^ and'Jim Pennell had himsdf interviewed by the press, and
that was exploited all over the United States—^that the price had
advanced; that the Armour Company was obliged to go to Liverpool
and purchase 50 carloads. Well, 50 carloads of salt is only about
ten days' supply for the Armour Packing Company, and it is a mere
bagatelle as compared with the tremendous amount of salt which the
Annour Company ura. But 50 carloads semned like a great amount,
and it run through the newspapers for a long time—^thrce to si.x
months. As soon as Mr. Armour made a contract witJi the Hutchin¬
son, Kans., Salt Company for his silt we heard nothing more about
Liverpool salt ; and actually I have not heard the matter mentioned
until it was stated here on the stand to-day.
I am in close touch with the packers; I know their purchasing
agents well, their traffic managers, tlie owners of the.plants; have
been on the river up and down for the last eleven years, and I think
I might have known something about this Liverpool salt if there
had fen any,substance to it beyond the few carloads which drifted
up from Galveston to Kansas City.
Commissioner Proutv. Mr. Morton, do you desire to ask any ques¬
tion?
Mr. Mobtox. I would like to ask Mr. Barton where he gets this
information about what the packers can use for Irish meat and Eng¬
lish meat, and so forth.
Mr. Bartox. I got it from such people as Mr. Edward Cudahy, Mr.
Billy Ruff, Mr. McNaughton.
Mr. Mortox. Mr. Barton, jmu know that was customary a good
many years ago, but as a Kaiusas salt man you know, that the Kansas
salt may be us¿l successfully for any purpose whatsoever in curing
meat successfully, do you not ?
Mr. Bartox. I know that it will cure Üio meat; but I know
that
Mr. Moirrox. You have heard packers say that they prefer to use
Hutchinson salt, and tliat their English and Iri.sh meat is salted with
Irish and Englisii Hutchinson Halt?
G4
3Ir. Bahtox. Xo, sir; I do not know that.
ilr. iloBTOx. Salt is loaded aljoiit 30 tons to a car, around about
that, is it not!
. ^Ir. Baiiton. It ^-iiries. ;
ilr. ]\ronTOx. Fifty cars would be, at 30 tons to a* car, IjHOO tohS.
Jlr. Carey speaks of shipping 1,500 tons in a year, which would be
suflicient for ten days' supply for a packer in the busy period?
Mr. Bahtox. Probably.
The S. and S. people are known as " di-essed-beef packers," they are
not large handlers of packer's salt. Tliey are_ hardly in the same
class with the Ciidahy, the Armour, and the Swift people.
^Ir. Moarox. I want to ask you one thing more. 1 ou stated that
your ]dant would produce salt at the same price as the Morton plant
and of the same quality. Is it not a fact tliat packers prefer steam
salt, salt made by your process and the Illorton process?
Bartox. Ï tliink that is true.
!Mr. Morton. Tlie plant that you testified you can make this cheap
salt in is the plant that you are now building, not the plant j'ou had.
Mr. Bartox. The plant I am building is ]hst like the plant I had;
very nearlj' ; same pipes ; same system : same method.
i'lr. !Mortox. Is it not a fact that you have produced salt for much
less than $2 a ton sînœ you have been in this field I
Mr. Bartox. Mliy, certainly; I have pi-oduced salt for less than $2
a ton.
31r. Mortox. Do you not regard the Hutchinson brine equal to any
brine in the country? .
^Ir. Bartox. Hutchinson brine will not produce a salt which has
no twang to it. The English salt and the German salt arc the only
salt
Mr. ItloRTOX. There is no brine equal to the Hutchinson brine, is
thcTO? , " • ■
Mr. Bartox." I hardly know as to that. There is a purer.salt than
Hutchinson salt.
3Ir. Mortox. You have anah'zed it or had it analyzed. You
know that the analj'sis sliows that the Hutchinson brine is as pure
as any brine in this country, do you not ?
Mr. Bartox. Yes, sir; Î think it is; but you do not analyze the
twang. "
Mr. ^loRTOx. It could not be pure brine if it contains gypsum, mag¬
nesia, and other elements that would make it impossible to manufac¬
ture the best salt.
iilr. Bartox. Tliere is no such plant in existence here, and in my
humble opinion there never will be a time when a plant will lœ
erected that will manufacture absolutely pure salt, owing to the
quantity of ^psum. You know there is from tliree to four times as
much gypsum as there is in the Miclúgan brine.
Mr. MarttxI I would like to have submitted and filed with the
Commission an anlysis of the brine.
Commissioner Pnourr. If it is of any materiality, it will be done.
Mr. Martin. It is very important.
Conmiissioner Proutv. If you have any other fact, Mr. Barton,
that you want to state, you may state it.
Mr. Barton. Well, the statement has been made that this was not
going to hurt" anyone—^this rebate system which was put in vogue
65
by the railroads livith the Hutchinson and Arkansas Elver Eailroad—
for the reason that no one shipped any bulk salt except the Kansas
Salt Company, the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company. I have some
figures I vould like to submit. From Januaiy 1 to June .30, inclu¬
sive—that is, six months of 1902—I shijpped 9,894,000 pounds of salt.
Commissioner PnouTV. Bulk salt?
Mr. Baetox. Yes, sir. And in the second six months of 1902 I
shipped 7,342,000 pounds. In the first six months of 1903 I shipped
5,910,000 iDounds. On the 27th day of March, 1902, I made a con¬
tract Avith the SAvift Packing ComjAany to supply all their houses on
the rh-er. This is a contract vhich Avas made Avith the SAvift
company.
[IVitness produces contract referred to.]
Commission^ Peouty. Mliat is the date of it ?
ilr. Baetox. It Avas under date of March 27, 1902, and it became
effectÍA-e on Aprik 1, 1902. The quantity Avhich I Avas to ship Aras
" for the entire requirements of the party of the second part, located
at Kansas City, Kans., South St. Joseph, Mo., and South Omaha^
Xebr. The price on the above salt shall be $4.25 per ton f. o. b.
Kansas City, Kans., and South St. .Joseph, Mo., and $4.65 per ton
f. o. b. South Omaha, Xebi'." The rates to Kansas City and to Omaha
Avas 10 cents, and the rate to South Omaha Avas 12 cents. That Avas a
'net price f. o. b. Flutchinson of $2.25 per ton.
ComuAissioner Peouty. Hoa\' much did coal cost you Avhen you
made this contract?
Mr. B.\etox. Up to $1.75 per ton. Shortly before April 1, 1903,
Avhen this contract Avas terminated, I Avas requested by the SAvift
people to'talk the matter over Avith them. Before I Avent to see them
I aa'anted to knoAV of the coal people Avhat the price of coal Avould be
and I Avas adAÛsed that they Avould haA'e to haA^e 25 cents more for
their coal. I aa'ent to one of the traffic managers of the railroads
and he .says: " Yes; there is going to be an advance of 25 cents on
the freight." That made my coal cost me 50 cents per ton more than
I had been paying. Well, on the theory that one can make 2 tons of
salt aa'ith 1 ton of coal I Avas justified in asking"$2.50 f. o. b. Hutch¬
inson. That price I Avas trying to secure from the SAvift company.
But these freight rates Avere put into effect aa'hile Ave Avere Avrangling^
oa-er this thing, and Mr. A'^incent, Avho Avas in the legislature of the
State of Kansas, making railroad laAvs for the State of Kansas, took
a a'acation
Air. AIaetix. I object.
Air. B.aetox. You stated he Avas a senator; I am simply confirming
that.
Air. A'^incent took a vacation and Avent over to the SAvift people and
made them an offer of $2.10, Avhich Avas 40 cents less than tlie price
that I Avas asking. SAvift offered the contract at $2.25 in spite of the
fact that tAvo cars of salt had come in from Liverpool by Avay of
Gah'eston. Air. Vincent did not ask him $2.25; he asked him $2.10.
And that only confirmed the impression that had been given by the
Hutchinson, Kans., people and Air. Tracy that they must have some¬
thing hack. Still a 15-cent trade for a 50-cent trade is a a'cry fair
SAvap. I did not ask anyone to give me any part or parcel of this
freight rate; it Avas not necessary. In my humble opinion I aa'ould
738a—Oo 11
CG
not llave gotten it if I had asked for it; and I could not have
procured it in any other way than h}' huildiiif^ some sort of a paper
railroad, which thought had not occurred to me. I can not see that
the railroads were justified in doing that, and I am pretty well satis¬
fied that they are very glad that the öO-cent rebate is now a thing
of the ¡nist.
Commissioner Pnouïv. Did you at any time know that this Ilutch-
inson and Arkansas liiver lîailroad had this division?
Mr, Bautox. No, sir.
Commissioner Bjîouïv. When did you first ascertain it?
^Ir. Bautox. I knew something was the matter; I could not tell
what it was. I knew I was up against sometliing, but it did not
occur to me that it was a paper railroad.
!Mr. Marciiaxd. When did you first know of the existence of this
Hutchinson and Arkansas liivcr Bailroad?
Mr. Bautox. I don't know that I know of its existence at the
present time.
Mr. ÍMarciiaxi). When did you know of its being on the tariffs?
!Mr. Bautox, About the time the taritfs were published. I didn't
undei'stand the intent or import : I guess none of us did.
Mr. !Mauciiaxo. Didn't know it was getting a division?
;Mr. Bautox. No, sir.
Commissioner Puouty. AVere those tariffs posted in the different
offices here?
Mr. Bautox. AVhy, the tariffs are not in the Santa Fe office at the
present time. We have witnesses here to prove that. The}' are not
in there at the present time.
Commissioner Pkoutv. How is it with the ^Missouri Pacific and the
Bock Island?
]\Ir. Bautox. I think they are here.
Commissioner Puouty. Is there an}' other fact, ]\Ir. Barton, that
you want to state?
]\Ir. Bautox. I think not, sir.
Commissioner Puouty. Any further questions, ilr. ilarchand?
Mr. Mauciiaxd. I think not.
Commissioner Puouty. That is all, Mr. Barton.
AVitness excused. "
Saaiuel jMattiiews, having been duly sworn, testified as follows :
Mr. Faiuciiild. Just give your name, residence, and occupation to
the stenographer.
Mr. AIattiiews. Samuel Matthews.
Illr. Faiuciiild. Your occupation and residence?
Mr. .^Matthews. Salt manufacturer; Hutchison, Ivans.
Mr. FAiRCinLD. How long have you been in the salt business here?
]Mr. Matthews. I have been connected with the salt business for a
number of years—perhaps ten yeai-s; iierhaps more.
Älr. Faiuciiild. Go on and state in your own way the situation of
the salt business here with reference to bulk salt^—^ivhere you sell it,
and so forth.
Jilr. Matthews. AAY have sold some bulk salt—quite a little. AA^e
had to stop it because the price was too low. AV^e never, however, sold
a groat quantity of bulk salt ; our production of salt is not big enough
67
for that. We could not take care of any of the large packers, or any¬
thing of that sort.
Mr. FAikc30tiij3. l¥ho owns your plant!
Mr. ÍLíttiiews. We paid for it; I suppose we ought to own it.
Mr. Faircheld. Under a contract?
kfr. jNIattiiews. We had no contract. I have a contract right here
in my pocket now; I have not signed it. We paid for the track. We
supposed we owned it. We made arrangements with the Santa Fe
Eailroad Company that we were to pay for the track when they put
it in, and th^ were to rebate us a dollar â car for every car that went
into the plant and every loaded car that went over their line, but we
never got any rebata We have asked them for it repeatedly, Ijut th^
never have given us any.
Commissioner Pbotitt. You paid for the switch?
Mr. klATTHEWS.,- Yes; we paid for the switch. We paid the Santa
Fe Eailroad $838 for the switch, and then it cost us something abqve
that for grading; we graded it ourselves.
Mr. FAiRCHnn. If you have anything you wish to say, go on and
state it. .
Mr. Matthews. Ko; I haven't anything particular to stata
Mr. Faiechhjj. What is your system or manufecturing salt?
Mr. MATTBmws. Ojien-pan Systran.
Mr. Faieohihd. Direct heat?
Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir.
Mr. Faibchhj}. Do you know what it costs you to produce salt a
barrel ?
Mr. ÍVIattiiews, By the barrel ?
Mr. Fairchild. Ko ; by the ton.
Mr. Matthews. About $2 a ton.
Mr. Fairchild. At the present price of coal ?
Mr. j\Iatthew8. Yes. We don't Icnow how,we stand on the cool
deal; we dont know anything about it. We* don't know whether
these railroads mve us rebates on the freight rate or not. , We are in
the air. We didnt know anything about this rebate on the bulk salt
until my attention was drawn to it. A .friend of mine told me that
the railroads were ^ving a rebate under that tariff with the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas Eiver fake railroad: that the operators were get¬
ting a rebate on all salt on that railroad. A friend of mine told me
so, and that was the first, I believe, I Imew about it. All that was on
the tariffs. I went to the Santa Fc Eailroad clerks and asked them
what that rebate meant, and they couldn't tell me. I believe they
didn't know. '
Commissioner Peouty. You went to the local agent here?
Mr, Matthews. Yes, sir.
Commksioner PitóüTV. What is the present price of salt per bar¬
rel? •
Mr. Matthews. Well, it varies from 05 to 80 cents.
Commissioner Phouty. You make good money at that?
Mr. Matthews. Well, at 80 cents.we would; not very much at
Go, because we have to pay for the selling of it. We do our share
at that. We sell it at 05 cents in some places in Missouri and Ne¬
braska ? . ,
Commissioner Paoprir. How is the price of that salt fixed? How
is 80 cents agreed upon as the price?
C8
^fr, ^Iattiiews. The Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company, I guess,
makes the price.
Commissioner Pkouty. You follow whatever price they make? .
;Mr. ^Maitiiews. "We come as near as we can.
Commissioner Pkouty. If it is necessary to go a little under that,
you go ?
!Mr. ^Matthews. Occasionally we do that. I guess they would do
the same. We stick pretty close to it, however. The coal question
is to my mind a more vital question than anything connected with
the salt business.
Commissioner Pkouty. Where do you get your coal ?
^Ir. ÍIattiiews. AVe get it from the Pittsburg district.
Commissioner Pkouty. So that it is a Kansas proposition?
!Mr. ^Matthews. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pkouty. It originatci? in Kansas and ends in Kan¬
sas?
i\Ir. ]Mattiiew.s. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fairciiild. That is all.
Mr. Matthews. AVe haven't any complaint against the salt com¬
pany; we haven't any ill feeling'toward them. It is the railroads I
am after. I don't care how much Mr. Vincent or !Mr. ilorton gets
out of the railroads; I would like to see them get more. Our rela¬
tions together are very pleasant, and they are ver^' agreeable Avith us.
AAY don't think the railroads should discriminate against us.
Commissioner Pkouty. You are not in shape to sell bulk salt?
Air. AIatthews. AA'e can sell salt when there are occasions. AA''e are
very glad to sell bulk salt at cost price to keep going.
Air. Fairchili). As a matter of fact, bulk salt is used to work off
the surplus and keep the plants running; that is the object ?
Air. AIattiiews. Yes, sir.
Air. Fairciiild. And the barrel salt is what you depend upon to
make your profit?
Air. AIattiiews. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pkouty. Does it hurt a salt plant to shut it down for
a month or two ?
Air. AIattiiews. Oh, yes; materially.
Commissioner Pkouty. So that it is not a good plan to run at its
full capacity for a number of months and then shut it down for a
month ?
Air. AIattiiews. It hurts it to shut it down for a day. It is very
expensÍA*e.
Mr. AIartix. AAliat does your barrel cost ?
Air. AIattiieavs. About 28 cents.
Air. AIartix. As a matter of fact, you are running pretty steadily,
are you not ? '
Air. AIattiieavs. Yes, sir.
Air. AIartix. Sell most of j'our salt in Kansas and Oklahoma ?
Air. AIattiiews. AVe sell considerable salt in Alissouri.
Air. AIartix. The bulk of it is sold in Kansas and Oklahoma ?
Air. AIattiiews. M'^ell, probably the majority.
Air. AIartix. Sold on the basis of 80 cents, and that yields 3'Oit
about $3.85 to $4.03 per ton net ? .
Air. AIattiieavs. I suppose. AA''e have not always had 80-cent salt.
It is only quite recently that it has got up.
69
f
Commissioner PnouTr. He didn't seem to be getting that price
nntil you began to get this rebate.
Mr. ÍNIaetin. It has been a good thing for Hutchinson ?
jSIr. Matthews. I am not complaining abotif it.
jSIr. ]\Iarchand. Have you shipped any salt to the ISIissouri River
within the last j^ear ?
Mr. Matthi¡ws. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Bulk salt ?
Mr. JMattheavs. Yes, sir ; quite a good deal.
Mr. Marchand.'Approximately how much?
iSIr. Matthews. I suppose we must have shipped 40 or 50 cars,
probably.
Mr.AÎARCHAND. Have you testified as to what line of railroad your
plant is located on ? ' ■
Mr. Matthews. Xo; I haven't. It is on the Santa Fe.
Mr. Marchand. The Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad
does not reach your plant?
Mr. Matthews. I suppose Morton owns the track over there; he
may own mine for all I know.
Jlr. Marchand. This switch you speak of is the switch that runs
from the switch that runs from the Western tracks?
i\Ir. Matthews. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. It is a short switch ?
Llr. Matthews. lYell, it is not so very short.
Mr. IMarchand. That is to say, your switch runs to the Western
Salt Company and they run a little line out alongside of your paclc-
ing house ?
Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; it is not very short, though. It is more
than six cars; it is about—oh, I suppose between 700 and 800 feet
long ; perhaps more—nearly a thousand.
Mr. Marchand. And you paid for that $838 to the Santa Fe Rail¬
road?
Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. And they agreed to rebate you $1 a car for all
salt which Avas taken out?
Mr. Matthews. The contract Avas $1 a car in and out. That
meant rock salt, cooperage—probably coal.
Mr. Marchand. And you and they have not settled yet Avith re¬
gard to that SAvitch ? *
Mr. Mattheavs. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Well, noAV, you speak of the iirice of your cooper¬
age, and some other Avitness testified about the cooperage; do you
knoAV that cooperage is very much cheaper in Kansas than any other
place?
Mr. Mattheavs. They get their staves from Texas, Avhere we do.
I don't think so.
Mr. Martin. If a railroad company pays to a salt company no
more than a sAvitch has cost, you do not regard that in the nature of a
rebate, do you ?
Mr. Mattheavs. No, sir; but avc ex-pect that Ave Avould be in ex¬
actly the same position as the Hutchinson and Arkansas Rh'er Rail¬
road. 'We OAvn a railroad of our OAvn.
Mr. Fairchild. You say that the contract is only in.force for tAvo
years?
70
]Mr. JIattiiews. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. FAiitciiii.i). And if yon fnil to use enough cars, in and out, to
get your $838 back, you forfeit the balance? ,
]\lr. ^fAiTiiinvs. Yes,.sir.
]\Ir. Faiuchiij). In other words, you have to furnisli tliem Avith that
amount of business in one year for putting in the switch, and the
switcli becomes yours at the termination of two 3'ears? ,
IMr. [MA'rriiEws. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. ÍIaiítix. Is not the present a prosperous time in Hutchinson for
tlie manufacture of salt, gcnci-all\-, including all companies?
!Mr. IMattiiews. It is so far as we are concerned.
Mr. Mautix. Have you known it to be any better than of late?
!Mr. ^Matthews. No, sir.
Mr. Maiîtix. Is it not a'fact that labor here is paid more now than
it Avas for some years back ?
Mr. ^MArriiEAvs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mautix. Is it not a fact that the'Hutchinson, Kans., company
brought about tlie increase?
Mr. IMattiieavs. I do not think that Avas the case. I think we did
before the}' did. I knoAV Ave did.
Mr. ^Iaiîtix. Ihit tliej' increased labor before a'ou began to manu¬
facture.
!Mr. Mattheavs. They did not.
Mr. IMáiítix. TlieA' increased earlj' in 1900.
Mr. Maiwiieavs. After Muh'aine went out. He ncA'er Avould pay
anything.
ilr. [Martix. Thej' haA'e never been as high in this field as they are
at present?
INIr. IMattiieaa's. That is right ; .yes, sir.
^Ir. IMartix. The Avages are higher than they haA'e been ?
!Mr. !Mattiieaa's. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martix. The business is in a most prosperous condition as
regards both outsiders and insiders?
]Mr. Mattiieaa's. "\Ye are perfecth' satisfied as it is.
ilr. Marciiaxd. Have you a fear, or haA'e a'ou ever expressed the
fear, that as a result of this iuA'estigation and by way of retaliation
the salt trust Avill put doAvn the price of salt ?
Mr. Martix. That is immaterial.
Gommissioner Prouty. I hardly think that is material.
Witness excused.
E. S. Moore, having been dulj' sworn, testified as folloAvs :
Mr. Marchand. Mliat is j'our name?
Mr. Moore. E. S. !Moore.
Älr. Marchand. Mliere do jmu reside ?
Sir. Moore. At Ellsworth, Ivans.
ilr. Marchand. And Avhat is your occupation ?
Mr. IMoore. Manager of the Ellsworth Salt Company at that point.
ilr. jSIarchand. How far is that from here ?
ISIr. Moore. About CO miles.
Mr. Marchand. Upon Avhat railroad ?
. jNIr. IMoore. Union Pacific and the St. Louis and San Francisco.
Mr. Marchand. Ydiat is its capacity?
Mr. Moore. From 400 to 500 barrels per day.
71
ilr. ÍIarchand. Have you ^vithin the last year felt the competition
of the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company more keenly than you did
prior to that time ? . '
Mr. ]\IooEE. I have not; simply because ve are just starting into
the business. I have been in the salt business in the Kansas field for
about fifteen jmars, and the 1st of April they commenced the erection
of this plant at Ellsworth and finished it on the 1st of August, and
we have been in operation there since that time. I did not undertake
to go on the market at all until about the middle of October; and so
far as competition is concerned we hadn't got to that point.
]\Ir. Marchand. MTiere were you located prior to your moving to
Ellsworth ?
]Mr. Moore. At Hutchinson.
Mr. Marchand. What was jmur occupation in Hutchinson ?
Mr. Moore. IWiy, to the 1st of January, 1900, I was in the salt
business—from the 1st of January, 1888—for twelve years contin¬
uously.
]\Ir. Marchand. What was the name of your company?
Mr. Moore. I was with the Kansas Salt Company from 1888 to
1895. and from 1895 to the time that Mr. Morton leased or absorbed
the Hutchinson Packing Company I was with that concern.
Mr. ^Marchand. IVere you with the Hutchinson Packing Company
at the time the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company leased it?
Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Do you know anything as to the ■ terms of that
lease?
]\Ir. ]\IooRE. Kot of my own knowledge; I never saw the lease. I
have been told by the owners that they leased it to Mr. Morton for the
term of five year.s.
Mr. Marchand. Do you know what the consideration was?
Mr. Moore. As I said, not of mv own knowledge; I have been told
with regard to that. I would not like to say.
IMr. iíARCiiAND. IWiat was your position with the company?
]\Ir. Moore. Assistant,manager of the company.
IVIr. Marchand. Who was the manager?
Mr. Moore. Mr. IValter Underwood.
Mr. Marchand. Where is Mr. Underwood ?
^Ir. Moore. In Hutchinson.
Mr. IMarchand. What is his occupation ?
Mr. Moore. He is in the cold-storage business now.
^Ir. ^Iarchand. Can you, or do yOu desire to, make any statement
of any facts in connection with this"investigation?
Mr. IMoore. Well, I do riot know that I do; one thing is, we are not
located at Hutchinson, we are located on railroads other than those
operating here, and my object in becoming identified in this was that
we feel that we are entitled to about as good a lav out from the rail¬
roads or anybody else as Mr. Morton is. While we have not his
capacity at the present time, Ave feel that if the Elkins law, and that
sort of a thing means anything, we are entitled to its protection.
ilr. jMarchand; Then, address yourself to that particular phase of
the case—the inequality of yourself and the Morton people.
Mr.'MooRE. If this rate Avas effective on all salt going out of Hutch¬
inson, it meant that unless Ave had protection from the railroad com¬
panies on Avhich Ave are located they could shut us out of business at
nny time, because 2'i jier cent of tiie rate would mean a very good
profit—mean a good return on the investment. If thej' would sell
their goods at cost their I'ebates would make them a good return on
the investment, while we would be out of business. •
!Mr. !^^A^CItA^■l). Is there anything else j'ou desire to add?
^ir. IVfooRE. No; I do not think there is.
Commissioner Püouty. Are you running to 3'our full capacitj' now?
^Ir. Mooue. IVe are not : but it is not the faidt of the market. We
did not get our wells comjileted in the time that we should. We have
been short of brine up to this time.
Commissioner I'routi'. Ildiere is .vour principal market?
!Mr. IMooiîe. Our market is identical with that of the Hutchinson
manufacturers; it is the territorv west of the ilissouri principalh',
including southern and western ^lissouri, Avestern and northern Ar¬
kansas, Indian Territory, Oklahoma, Kansas, Xel)raska, and Colo¬
rado, although Nebraska is simply nominallj' our territory.
Commissioner Proutv. Can other manufacturers, located in other
States—in ^Michigan or Ohio, for instance—reach that territory in
competition with Kansas?
ISIr. Hoore. They can in Nebraska and northern Missouri and
eastern ilissouri; in fact, thej' haA-e adA-antages oA-er us there.
Commissioner Prouty. But there is a territory here in Kansas and
Indian Territory Avithin a certain radius of Hutchinson which
belongs to j'ou?
Mr. ilooRE. We feel that it is, and it is much smaller than it was
when Mr. Morton identified himself with this territorj'.
Commissioner Prouty. That territory, I suppose, consumes about
so much salt ?
Mr. Moore. Yes; it consumes a great deal of salt.
Commissioner Prouty. Does the amount of salt which is consumed
in that territory depend, in 3'our opinion, to a large extent on the
price at which the manufacturer sells his salt? It appears that
to-da3' salt is worth, sa3', 80 cents in that territor3', and it used to be
worth 57 cents. Noav, would just as much salt be used at 80 cents
as Avould be consumed at 57 cents?
Mr. Moore. Yes; I think that it would.
Commissioner Prouty. So that it is clearly a gain to the manu¬
facturer if the price of salt is raised and maintained?
Mr.-Moore. It is a clear gain-to the manufacturer.
Commissioner Prouty. How is the price fixed ; what 3'ou ma3' terra
the base price?
jNIr. Moore. I do not know. I simp]3' went onto the market two
months ago and inquired as to' what the base was and received in¬
formation, picked it up, as to what the market was and proceeded to
follow it. _ . ■
Commissioner Prouty. Do 3"ou adhere to the market price?
]Mr. IMoore. Yes; as a general thing I do. I do not think the
price of salt is any too high.
Commissioner Prouty. At thé present time there does not seem to
be an3' great overproduction of salt? _ , '
Mr. Moore. No; I do not think there'is.
Commissionèr Prouty. All these manufacturers are selling at a
profit. Supposing Älr. Morton would start up all of his idle capacity
in Hutchinson and undertake to put that salt on the market; what
effect would it have?
73
Mr. Moore. So far as that is concerned, it would be the same thing
as if we should increase our capacity, because his idle capacity is
largely abandoned.
Commissioner Peoutt. Suppose you would double your capacity,
what effect, do yoii think, that would have on the price of salt?
Mr. Moore. It would i^robably result in a scramble for business.
Commissioner Prouty. That would demoralize the market ?
Mr. Moore. X should say it would.
Mr. jNIartix. You said that you regarded this division as applying
only to bulk salt as a . much less serious matter than you thought it
was?
Mr. ]\IooRE. Yes, sir. If it applies only to bulk salt it interferes
with the independent manufacturers, simply because I feel that they
are entitled to market their surplus at the same place you are.
Mr. jNIartix. True ; but have they any surplus at the present time ?
Isn't their salt all marketed ?
JNIr. ilooRE. I do not know what they are doing. If they are
simply going after-the high-priced stuff and letting the low-priced
stuff, go they are, in my opinion, following a wrong plan, because the
low-priced salt sells the higher, but the high-priced salt does not sell
the low-priced. . ,
Mr. Martix. The only reason you are not running full capacity is
that you are short of brine?
Mr. Moore. I suppose so.
Mr. Martix. You could sell all the salt you could make if jmii had
the brine? '
Mr. Moore. I do not know; I think I could.
Mr. Martix. If you were to put vacuum pans into' a plant here or
elsewhere, you would put in the direct heat pans, such as were at the
Hutchinson ?.
Mr. Moore. I would not put in either.
Mr. Martix. Do you or do you not regard direct heat jians as
poor—as of poor construction mechanically ?
ilr. Moore. Absolute failures.
JNIr. JNIartix. Absolute failures on account of the mechanical con¬
struction ?
^Ir. jNIoore. The exiiansion and contraction makes the cost of re¬
pairs so high that they can not be operated economically.
Mr. Martix. You know the reason they were not a success here
was that they were mechanically imperfect?
JNIr. Moore. JSYt altogether. Part of that trouble arose from the
large amount of gypsum and other scale that forms inside of them
and burns them. This brine here will show, probably, as large a
per cent of salt in it and freedom from a great many impurities that
are in other salts as any; but it has a great deal of gypsum, and it
adheres to the pipes and frame, and I would think that a vacuum pan
in which the salt is made in the in-pipes would not be any more suc¬
cessful than the vacuum pans we had. The gyjisum gathers so fast
that the iiipes have to be bored out every twelve hours, so that it
is the same thing in all fields.
Mr. JNIartix. You have been here for a good many years, Mr.
Moore. Have you ever Iciiown better conditions than prevail hero
now as regards all manufacturers, or better prices paid for labor?
Mr. JNIoore. IVcll, I have known just as good. The prices paid for
labor were just as good iirior to the times of depression in 1893 as
74
tlioy arc now. I believe you are payiiif? $1.00 for labor now, but $1.50
was |)ai(l for labor up to the " hard times," as we called them, of 1893.
Mr. !M.\i:tix. Is it not a fact tiiat the highest price ever paid in
this field up to the present time—up to the present year;—for labor
was $1.50 a day ?
Mr. ^looiiK. Yes, sir.
Mr. M.m:tix. Then the price of labor is higher than you have ever
known it ?
Mr. IMooiu:. It is if it is $1.00 a day.
Mr. M.mîtix. a salt plant deteriorates in value veiy fast?
Mr. MooiiK. I consider it so; yes, sir.
^Ir. Maiîtix. And a company having one-third of its capacity idle
would snil'er a very material loss from that fact, would it not?
Mr. ^Mooim. Yes, sir; it would.
Commissioner Phouty. That is all, ilr. !Moore.
"Witness excused.
AV. L. AIoonE, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
Air. AI.\i!Chaxi). Air. Aloore, AAh L. are your initials, are they not?
Air. AIoore. Yes, sir.
Air. AIauciiaxd. AAliere do you reside?
Air. AIooke. Anthony, Kans.
Air. AIaiícjiaxd. AAdiat is your occupation?
All*. AIoore. Alanager of the Orient Salt Company.
Air. AIarciiaxd. AVhat is the capacity of that compan}*?
Air. AIoore. About 500 barrels.
Air. AIarciiaxd. How far is Anthony from here?
Air. AIoorS. Seventy-one miles.
Air. AIarciiaxd. On what lines of railroad?
Air. AIoore. On the 'Frisco, Alissouri Pacific, Santa Fe,' and the
Choctaw liailroad.
Air. AIarciiaxd. You have been engaged in the salt business in one
capacity or another for a great many years, have j'ou not ?
Air. AIoore. Yes, sir.
Air. AIarciiaxd. Did you start Avith the National Salt Comiiany?
Air. AIoore. No; I started here in Hutchinson.
Air. AIarciiaxd. How many years ago?
Air. AIoore. In 1888.
Air. AIarciiaxd. You started with the Kansas Salt Company?
Air. AIoore. Yes, sir.
Air. AI.arciiaxd. From here where did you go?
Air. AIoore. I Avent to Chicago, and then came back here.
Air. AIarciiaxd. AVere you engaged in the salt business in Chicago?
Air. AIoore. Yes, sir.
Air. AIarchaxd. AAliat company Avere you identified with while in
Chicago ?
Air. AIoore. Standard Salt Company.
Air. AIarchaxd. State to the Commission at what time you were
affiliated Avith the National Salt Company.
Air. AIoore. AVell, at the time of their organization.
Air. AIarciiaxd. And Avhen was that?
Air. AIoore. I think that was in 1898.
Air. AIarcii.axd. The National Salt Company was a corporation of
what State? - ■ ¡
75
Mr. Mooee. New Jersey.
Mr. Marchand. "Wlio is the president of that company ?
Mr. Mooee. A. S. MTiite.
Mr. Maeciiand. AAJiat became of the National Salt Company?
Mr. Mooee. "Well, they Avent into the hands of a receiA^er.
Mr. Marchand. Mliat comijanjr succeeded the National Salt Com¬
pany?
Mr. jSIoore. I think that the International obtained a controlling
interest in the National before the National failed.
Mr. Marchand. That aa-as the International of Noav Jersey?
Mr. Mooee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. AWiere aa-ere their properties located?
Mr. Mooee. In NeAv York and Michigan, Texas and Kansas.
Mr. INIaechand. "MTio was the president of that International Com¬
pany ? .
Mr. jMooee. Mr. Fuller, as I remember it.
iSIr. IMaechand. State to the Commission what has become of that
company, the International Company of Noat Jersey. Is that still
in existence?
Mr. JIooEE. I understand tha.t it is ; so far as I knoAV.
Mr. Marchand. Were you eA'er identified aa'ith the International
of Illinois?
Mr. Mooee. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Do you knoAV anything about it ?
Mr. Mooee. No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Do you knoAv aa'Iio is the president of it ?
Mr. Moore. No; I do not.
Mr. Marchand. Do you knoAA' Avhether the International of Illi¬
nois owned any ¡slants in Kansas?
Mr. Mooee. I do not knoAv that.
Mr. Marchand. What relation does the Hutchinson, Kans., S^lt
Company bear to the International Salt ComjAany of Ncav Jersey, if
any, if you knoAv ?
Mr. ilooEE. Nothing, that I knoAv of. No relation, so far as I
knoAV. , *
Mr. jMaechand. There has been some discussion here as to the
process of manufacturing salt by Avhat is knoAA'n as the Auicumn
process. No one seems to be sufiiciently competent to tell about it.
Do you know anything of that process?
Mr. Mooee. "\Vell, I haA'e had some experience Avith vacuum pans.
]\Ir. Marchand. Tell the Commission hoAV that process is.
Mr. Mooee. It is simply a process of boiling brine in a vacuum,
the brine being held in suspension by the vacuum and boiling it at
a loAv temperature, say at 120° instead of 220°, and thereby saA'ing
fuel. It. is a patented pan, of tAvo or three different patents.
Mr. Marchand. Is the salt produced from that process as good as,
and as marketable as, the other process that has been described here?
Mr. Mooee. No; it is not generally so considered.
!Mr. Marchand. Well, in point of fact, isn't it true that it sells for
less?
Mr. !Moore. From 5 to 10 cents a barrel less.
^Ir. Marchand. HaA'e you any statement to make of facts con¬
nected Avith this case that Avill be of interest or material?
7G
Mr. ]\roonE. Xotliing that I know of. I liare been ont of this field
for tlie last si.x or spveu yeai*s, and I am not very well posted.
Mr. AIaucu.ixu. You do not desiro to add anything of j'our own
notion? ^ . B J .
Mr. ^Mooiie. Notliing that I think of.
Coiniuissioner PnouTV. Is your plant running to its full c<ipacity?
!Mr. !Moore. Xo, sir; not at the present time.
!Mr. ]Maktix. Is it a new ¡ilant ?
!Mr. Mooue. Xo, sir; it is an old plant.
Mr. Maiîtix. It has been reeentlj' rebuilt!
Mr. ^Moohe. Yes, sir. .
"iMr. Martix. They spent $27.000 in rebuilding it? '
Mr. ^looiiE. I do not know.
!Mr. ^Iautix. You have just been there a short while?
[Mr. JIooRE. Since August.
^Ir. Moutox. IVhy are you not running j'our plant?
Mr. [Moore. "We have been short of brine.
Mr. [Mortox. You could make vour salt all right if vou had the
brine?
^Ir. [Moore. Well, I presume we might; I do not know. I could
not answer that question.
3kir. Mortox. You know that under the vacuum plan salt can be
made at a temperature of 120' ; j'ou know that !
Mr. [Moore. Yes, sir.
[Mr. Mortox. You Iniow that a double-effect vacuum iian is in. use
at Akron, Ohio Î
^Ir. ^looRE. Yes, sir.
Mr. [^loRTOX. You know—at least j'ou have heard—that their con¬
tract was to iiroduce 30 tons to a ton of coal.
^Ir. Moore. I have heard that thej' have a contract of that kind,
but I could not believe it. I believe they have a contract.
jMr. Mortox. lietuming to this field after a few years' nlisence,
you find conditions are pretty fair to the outsiders?
Mr. Moore. Yes, sirj I think so.
Mr. Mortox. Mlien you managed the IiJinsns Salt Company, were
the outsiders doing as well as they are to-day! _ .
iilr. Moore. Well, I am not fulh' posted'as to what they are doing
to-day, but they have their ui)S and downs now, I supposie, the same'
as they had them before.
Mr. Mortox. They were pretty generally closed up during your
administration, were' they not ?
Sir. Moore. Well, some of them were.
Commis.sioner Proctt. Mliat was"salt selling for then?
Mr. Moore. Well» it varied from 50 cents to a dollar.
' Commissioner PnoT3Tr. A barrel ?
Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.
Conmiissioner Paotrrr. Mliat was j'our coal worth then?
Mr. Moore. Coal was costing $1.25 to $1.50.
Commissioner Proutv. That is all.
Witness excused.
■ 77
J, L. Dick, harâig been duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. Makchäkd. MTiat is your namef
3ilr. Dick. J. L. Dick.
Mr. Makchand. And you reside here in Hutchinson?
Mr. Dick. I do.
;Mr. Marchand. By whom are you employed?
Mr. Dic!k. By Mr. Carey.
3Ir. ^Marchand. In what capacity ?
Mr. Dick. Clerk in the salt busine®.
Mr. Marchand. You are sort of traffic manager for Mr. Carey?
Y ou are familiar with the rates on salt I
Mr. Dick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Now, JMr. Dick, I hand you some tariffs of the
Santa Fe Kailroadj wHdi have been offered in evidence, and which I
believe you had witli you yesterday when you made an examination
of the tariffs on file with the ageat of the Santa Fe road at Hutchin¬
son. [Hands tariffs to witness.] Now, state to the Commission
whether any of the tariffs which you hold in your hand, and which
were filed with the Commission, were not on file in the office at Hutcli-
inson.
Mr. Dick. I found that the tariff which is referred to in the regiv
lar tariff 5900, and Santa Fe System 6Î66, are on file, but the amend¬
ment wHdi is now in effect—6766-A—^was not on file and had not
been.
Mr. Marchand. To whom did you apply to see that tariff?
Mr. Dick. To the rate derk ; Mr. Hartman, freight agent, and Mr.
Walker, agent.
•Mr. îDrchand. "WTiat is Mr. Wallier's name?
Mr. Dick. Mr. C. A, Walker.
Mr. hlARCHAND. YTiat is the rate clerk's name?
Mr. Dick. Mr. Prather.
Mr. SDrchand. Is Mr. Hartman an employee of the Santa Fo?
iHr. Dick. Yes, sir.
Mr. SDrciiand. They told you they didnt have these tariffs I
Mr. Dick, Yes, sir.
Mr. SIarchand. And had not had tliem—nérer had them?
Mr. Dick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Martin. You don't know anything about it except what they
stated ?
Mr. Dicxc. They stated that was all tJiey had.
Mr. Marchand.. You didnt find these tariffs posted in the office?
Mr. Dick. They were in the rate derk's file.
Mr. SDhciiand. You looked to'see whether they were posted—
hung up on the wall ?
• Sir. Dick. No; they wrare not posted. Tliey were in the rate
clerk's file. . , , « ,
Mr. SIarchand. If your honor please, tliat is all we have for the
present.
Mr. ADrtin. I do not know that there is any materiality in the
posting of these tariff sheets, as that seems to be merely an inci¬
dental matter. This inquiry seems to be about what the rates are.
We would like to send for Mr. Walker.
Commissioner Proutt. Mr. Marchand, the Rock Island and Mis¬
souri Pacific have both p<Bted tlxeir tariffs?
78
]\rr, JrAitcuAxi). I am informed that the tariffs have been posted.
Commissioner Piîoutv. Is there any reason whv yours was not
posted, Mr. Biddie?
!Mr. Binni.K.. Not the slightest. A young man here says that "he
failed to lind the tariffs in our station and Avas told by our rejAresent-
ative that he did not have them. Our agent is here. I think he
can exjjlain it satisfactorilv to the Commission.
Commissioner PnbuTV. Ï think he had better take the stand.
Mr. Dick Avas e.xcused.
i\Ir. Biddi.e. I Avould like to aslc ^Ir. Dick a question. He can
answer it right there. [Witness had left the stand.] Hoav did it
happen that you Avere doAvn there looking for this information, Mr.
Dick ?
Mr. Djck. Mr. ^Marchand sent me doAvn there.
Mr. Piddle. You had seen these sheets before?
^Ir. Dick. I liaA'e neA'cr seen this particular one before.
C. A. Walker, liaA'ing been duly SAVorn, testified as folloAvs:
^Ir. Maktix. Mr. M'alker, you are the agent of the Santa Fe?
!Mr. Walker. Yes. sir.
. ^Ir. Martin. You liaA'c heard ilr. Dick's testimony?
Mr. "Walker. Yes, sir. .
Mr. !Martin. AVhat haAe you to saj' about it?
ilr. "Walker. "Well, I happened in the ollice, and I found Mr. Dick
and a gentleman representing the Barton Salt Company there; in
fact, ilidn't pay much attention to them, because I Avas looking over
the tariffs. Personally I paid very little attention to them. They
offe'red no complaint to make AvhatcA-er any more than they Avere
looking up the salt-rate question.
Mr. Martin. Do you knoAV Avhether those sheets had been posted or
not?
iMr. "Walker. Our tariffs are complete so far as I can make them.
Commissioner-Prouty. As I understand it, it Avas a supplement
that Avas not posted.
Mr. Walker. I Avant to explain in regard to these supplements
from time to time. They are liable to be delaA'ed or miscarried in
the mails, and sometimes we liaA'e missed them and liave to write for •
them in order to make our files complete. Mliile I do not attend to
the tariffs personallj-—Ave haA'e a rate clerk that attends to those per¬
sonally—and aa'hile Ave might be short one specific amendment or
tariff, or Avhatever it is, yet Ave do not intend to be at all. In other
Avords, Ave try to keep our files just as complete as Ave can. They
are ahvays open to the juiblic whenever they are called for; and 1
think that the people of Hutchinson—Hutchinson shippers—will
concur in my statement that our tariffs are as complete, if not a little-
more, than any others in toAvn. In fact, I have received a great many
compliments on that line.
iMr. JNIartin. You act in good faith and try to keep them posted?
Älr. Walker. Yes, sir; iiiA'ariably. Nothing secret Avhatever.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you remember ever having seen that
supplement?
j\Ir. Walker. I do not belieA'e I have ever seen it. My duties are
such that I can not look over eA-ery supplement.
79
Commissioner Prouty. Have you known anything about this
Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Eailroad ?
]Mr. Walker. I noticed the tariff.
Commissioner Prouty. Have you conducted their business any
differently since the tariff was made than you did before ?
Mr. Walker. Xo, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. Didn't receive any instructions from any of
your superiors in reference to this?
Mr. Walker. Xo, sir. . .
Commissioner Prouty. You make no return showing what cars
you receive for that road? You make no returns which relate to
that road ?
Mr. Walker. Xo, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. Any questions, Mr. Älarchand ?
Mr. Marchand. Xo ; I think not.
Mr. Biddle. Can you answer, Mr. Walker, from your own personal
examination of the record, if there is any reason for that particular
supplement being missing?
Mr. "Walker. Xo, sir; it was simjily, I guess, like anything else.
jSIr. Biddle. You have that original tariff that made these rates
effective Avith the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eii-er Eaih'oad on ffle—
was kept on file ?
Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Biddle. You have tariffs in effect to-day showing that our
rates do ajiply in connection Avith the Hutchinson and Arkansas
EiA'er Eailroad?
Mr. Walker. Yes, sir; Ave Avouldn't think of concealing anything
of that kind. There Avould be no reason for it. The loss of a tariff
or supplement is liable to happen any time—miscarriage in the mail.
We haA'e to Avrite for them.
Commissioner Prouty. That is the last supplement? The first
tariff which made these rates effectiA^e with that road is on file in
your office?
Mr. "Walker. Yes, sir; we conceal nothing.
Commissioner Prouty. That is all. Do you desire to call any other
witness?
("Witness excused.)
Mr. Martin. We should like to ask ]\Ir. Joy Jlorton a fcav ques¬
tions.
Joy Morton, having been duly sworn, testified as folloAvs:
Älr. Martin. Mr. Morton, your giv^en name^is " Joy," and you are
the Joy Morton that has been referred to by Avitnesses here, are you
not? ^ ;
Mr. iMoRTON. I presume so; I believe I am.
Mr. jMartin. "Where <lo you IIa'c? ^
i\Ir. Morton. I live in Chicago.
Air. IMartin. What business are you engaged in? ,
ilr. iVIoRTON. I am engaged in quite a number; engaged in salt
for one one. That is not my chief business.
^Ir. ^Iartjn. AVhat is your chief business?
IMr. Morton, Well, my largest _ interests are in milling, starch
making, and glucose manufacturing. Corn-products company is
my largest interest.
80
^Ir. Martix. You are also ei^içaged in other lines or interests?
!Mr. iMoRTox. Yes, sir; in banking, and milling of other sorts,
ilr, Aíartix. You are president of the Ilutcdiinson, Kans., Salt
Company, are you not ?
i\ir. ^ioRTOx, Yes, sir.
i\Ir. ÍMartix. You ma}' state whether or not it has ever received
any rebates or concessions by reason of this division tiiat is referred
to with the Hutchinson, and Arkansas Kiver líailroad Com23any.
iMr. ^foRTOx. They have never received anything exceiit payment
for the tracks which have been mentioned bere to-day and $3,000 on
account of the purchase of certain land in the western ¡lart of town,
which 3Ir. Vincent explained was to be used for a transfer yard.
There have been no transactions whatever between the Hutchinson
and Arkansas River Railroad and the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Com-
l^any except to that extent.
I am in a double cajiacity in this thing. I am in-esident of the
Hutchinkul and Arkansas River Railroad and I am president of the
Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company, so that you can question me both
ways, Hr. Harchand.
Sir. ÍMartix. You can state Avhatever facts that you may think
may enlighten the Commissioner with regard to this Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad Company.
^Ir. ;Mortox. "Well, sir, I will give you the history of it. The latter
l^art of IftOl the president of the Santa Fe Railroad stated to me
one day that the compau}' had two bridges on the Arkansas River
that were M'ithin 100 yards of one another, and did I know avIio owned
the land south, so that a connection could be made between the
Hutchinson and Arkansas River and the main line between here and
Kinsley. It was discussed in a casual manner, and the official said
he would have the thing looked into and a map made. That maiî was
given to you this morning.
It was made in January, 1902. In the course of time it was decided
to incoiqiorate a railroad, with the idea of making it a terminal road
and a connection for the St. Louis and San Francisco. The charter
was secured, which i^rovicled a line from Hutchinson to a town called
Kechi, but the real objective i^oint was a point a few miles this side
of Kechi, called Patterson, the intention being to connect with the
St. Louis and San Francisco and make a line direct to "Wichita and
south. Our reason for that Avas that we could not get St. Louis and
San Francisco cars. It is a large sj'stem, and we Avere A'ery anxious
to get into the territory Avhich it coA'ered. In July, 1902, this com¬
pany Avas organized. Its charter has been filed here, and I think it
Avas organized strictly in accordance Avith the law of the State of
Kansas. At all eA'ents, Ave had adA'ice of attorneys on it. and Ave at-
temiAted and, so far as I know, vce succeeded in incorporating the road
in the projAer fashion. Very soon afterAvards, at the suggestion of
the St. Louis and San Francisco people, we began to negotiate with
tliem with the A'ieAv of getting this line in here. Those negotiations
extended over a period of more than six months, during Avhich time
surveys Avere made, as has been testified to heré, and it was finally
concluded that it would be better to build the line only from Hutchin¬
son and then use the tracks of the Santa Fe, if agreeable to that
comjAany, than to build the line across country from here to Patter¬
son, because it Avas a country that Avas jAvetty thickly inhabited and
81
the right of yay ^ín'ouIcI cost a good deal of money, and the difference
in mileage did not amount to anything. This contention in regard
to this arrangement—it is merely a matter as to Avhether that charter
empowered the Hutchinson and Arkansas Eiver Railroad to make
contracts as a railroad. There have been no payments of money
niade by the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad to the Hutch¬
inson, Ivans.. Salt Company excepting 'as has been stated. And X
wish to state that one witness has testified that he had an arrangement
to be paid for a side track, also, for what it cost.
Mr. Maetik. Did the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad
sjDend moneys here ?
Mr. IMoetox. The Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad spent
•for pro]Derty in Hutchinson over $20,000.
!Mr. iXvETix. Xow, state why the plan has not been carried out of
getting the railroad in here. '
!Mr. iMoETOX. The chief reason is that on the 27th of February X
wrote to Mr. Winchell and told him that I noticed in the newspapers
there was a merger between the Rock Island and the 'Frisco. If this
was so, I told him I could not see any reason for building the road.
He telegraphed me to wait. That was followed by a letter, dated
March 2, of which I have the original hère, saying that he could not
say very much to me, but he wished I would hold up in the meantime»
Xow, it was.reported one day that the merger had been made, and
another day that it had not been made; and I recognized the fact
that the St. Louis and San Francisco could not afford to give me any
definite information. I should rather have hacFdefinite information
in regard to that than those salt fields out there. But we were simply
handicapped. I went to California with my invalid wife and re¬
mained there for two months. The matter had not been settled upon
my return, and, if I remember correctly, if was not for several
months ; one day they were going together, and another day thev were
not. Immediately thereafter, however, they began to put 'Frisco
System cars into Hutchinson by way of Medora. As regards that
particular thing, we had accomplished what we hoped to accomplish
at the beginning by building our railroad.
Mr. Maetix.-Are the stockholders of the two companies identical?
' Mr. Moetox. "Wfiiat two companies ?
]Mr. !Maetix. The Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Com¬
pany and the Hutchinson, Ivans., Salt Company.
ifr. Moetox. Xo, sir; they are not. Not only not identical, but not
related. The ownership is entirely separate. The connecting link
is myself. I am the president of both companies.
Jlr. Maetix. Now. state whether or not the deal, the verbal deal,
that was made with Mr. Ripley is still pending.
Mr. IMoetox. Yes, sir; it is m statu quo, waiting for him to build
the line which is outlined on the map by his engineers.
Now, as regards the necessity for this line, I wish to explain. No
such thing as a division was thought of at the time this thing was
suggested. Our intention was to consolidate on land which we
owned in the immediate vicinity of the Morton plant.
Mr. Maetix. On the south side of the river?
. Mr. ]\IoETOX. Yes, sir. They could all have been served with a.
small amount, with comparatively little trackage—not more than 2
738a—fß m O
82
miles—and tlic business could have been conducted very much more
economically. Now, it was prompted by tbe fact that the year before
last and afjain this year the yards of Hutchinson were blocked wit)i
freif^ht. The present fall we have sometimes been two or three days
without having; a switch, because these yards have been full. The
idea was to make it possible for us to do our business—facilitate the
movement of our business.
Mr. Tbis ground ^vas boufçht for transfer yards?
!Mr.!^^olîT()^^ Yes,sir; and it was bought for very much less money
than it cost. The Ilutcliinson, Kans., company bought it and with it
a salt works, which was afterwards removed—called the Queen City
M'orks.
Now, Mr. Commissioner, if you will permit me to ,make a state¬
ment I would like to do so. Now, there has been a great deal .said
bere about tbe bulk busines.s. Now, the facts are that, as compared
with the year 1000 the year 1903—estimating that the movement of
bulk salt will be the same this month as last December, and that was
a good month, a very good month—shows a falling off in cars of a
little more than 50 per cent. The shipments for this year of bulk
salt, as compared with 1900, in carloads, shows a falling off—it is a
little less than one-half in carloads, but there has been an increase in
the loading. How much I do not know, but since I became inter¬
ested in and control the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company four
years ago, the loading per car has been increased, but I can not give
the figures. I do not know whether the railroad i:)eople can or not.
But it is fair to add whatever that increased loading is to this
deficiency. This falling off in the business is not due to competi¬
tion of anyone here, T think, because they have all testified that
they have not done much business this 3"ear. I am speaking of the
year 1903, which shows a less shipment of bulk salt of anj- j'ear that
Ave have a record of.
Commissioner Pnouxr. You mean from j*our plant, or from all
these plants?" ■ ,
Mr. iloRTOX. I do not know what the movement is from all the
plants, but I believe that the total movement of carloads per A'ear
from Hutchinson is less than Mr. Carey estimated the capacitj' of.
these outside producers ; I believe the total carload movement is less.
You liaA^e asked for these figures;. I think 3^11 can satisf3' 3'ourself.
Commissioner PEOuxr. These figures 3'ou hat-e just given relate
entirely to 3mur plant?
jNIx. Moetox. Yes; entirel3^ I knoAV our business has been cut in
tAvo in bulk. I would like to state something about the cost of pro¬
ducing salt in this connection. ]Mr. Vincent, Avho is our manager,
stated that the salt could be produced for $1.25, and it has been,
under favorable conditions and with much cheaper coal than we '
liaA'e noAv, and, in fact, for a little less than $1.25 jjer ton. It is
produced to-day and sold in Michigan for le.s.s money. I have a
contract not yet filled for 1,500,000 barrels. We purchased last
Avinter at one time at.$1.07-J i^er ton f. o. b. boats Lake Michigan
ports. I mention that to show the competition that Kansas meets
Avitli. The production of salt in Michigan has not increased, because
it is made Avith the bark and sawdust that is necessarily burned by
the saAvmills. They do not count fuel as anything.
S3
The cost of producing salt here—at the present time salt is pro¬
duced by the open-pan jirocess, I infer from the figures testified to by
parties here to-day—it is nearly $2 a ton. It is not nearly so much
as that in our big works, which produces 1,100 or 1,200 barrels a day
and runs continuously, and is, in fact, the only plant belonging to
the Hutchinson, Kans., company which has run continuously of late.
We have to-day, including the Hutchinson Packing Company, an
idle capacity equivalent, in my judgment, to more than 2,500 barrels
per day. It is idle because we can not find a market for it at profit¬
able figures. We could go far east or far south and sell at a very
low price, but we would displace salt that we are producing in other
fields and Avhich nets a better price. It Avouldn't pay. The Hutch¬
inson territory is a large territory ; but distance goA'erns in the distri¬
bution of salt from any field, whether it be Kansas or any other field.
Kow, as regards the relation of the Hutchinson, Kans., company
to the railroads. Prior to 1900, when I became president of the
Hutchinson, Kans., company, rates had been low out here, and the
salt business was divided, like ancient Gaul, into three parts. There
were the Rock Island men, the Santa Fe manufacturers, and the Mis¬
souri Pacific croAvd, each one patronizing that particular line. The
result was more or less friction, and the business was put together;
and these gentlemen—some of them, at least—have testified to the
fact that I told them if they could miake rates a little more satisfac¬
tory I Avould be satisfied. All I Avanted Avas to knoAV that the rates
Averë to be stable. It don't make much difference Avhat the rate is on
barrel salt, or on any salt, to a territory which any field can meet
Avithout competition from some other field, is a meeting place
between these fields, Avhere sometimes one field can go over a little
farther. It don't cut much figure what the rate is.
JNIr. Martin. The important feature is stability ?
]\Ir. Morton. Certainly.
Now, you ask Avhy it Avas that the Hutchinson, Kans., company
should make a price Avhen apparently they were not interested in the
Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad. Noav, the only reason
they made that price Avas because they Avere instructed to do so.
They Avere not consulted. It was simply that the office here Avas
authorized to make a price on bulk salt on a certain basis, and I
instructed them to do it. The 'price of barrel salt in this field is
made in precisely the same Avay. Well, Ave make the price—I think
I make the price in this field. I am probably responsible for the
80-cent price; in fact, I knoAV I am. We have not debarred any of
these gentlemen from getting as much as they could out of it. Their
idea of how much they ought to have is all they can manufacture.
I believe, so far as the Ilutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad
is concerned, that it is legally and properly organized under the
laAvs of the State of Kansas; and it controls the movement of salt
from the biggest Avorks in this field.
Mr. Martin. Well, I believe that,is all, unless Mr. Morton cares
to say somoithing more.
jNIr. Marchand. You have stated that you are the connecting link'
betAvccn the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad and the Hutch¬
inson, Kan., Salt Company, I believe?
iVIr. Morton. I stated that I Avas the president of both companies.
Mr. Marchand. I think you used the Avord " link."
84
!^^r. ÍMortox, i think I <lid.
^Ir. !M.\i!CirAxr). Now, it has been testified to that Mr. Frank Vin¬
cent is a director in the Hutchinson and Arkansas Fiver Eailroad
Coni2iany. {
Mr. ^Moiîïox. Yes; 3Ir. Fi-ank Vincent is.
Mr. ^Maiiciíaxo. Is Mi*. Vincent in the emidoy of the Hutchinson,.
Ivans., Salt Company?
Ml*. iSIoRTOx. Yes, sir.
Älr. Maiíciiaxi). How about ilr. Baddelej'?
]Mr. ^loRTox. He is ah employee of the Hutchinson, Ivans., Salt
Company; and i\Ir. Phillips also._
Mr. íMaiíciiaxt). How about i\Ir. Tracy ?
Mr. iloriTox. He is not in the emi>Ioy of the salt company; never
has been. ,
Mr. ÍIauchaxi). He is in your emidoy?
ill*. ^loiîTOX". He is not entirely in my employ. He handles a ver}'^
lai-ge amount of business outside of salt. He handles a great amount
of grain and grain products, and the products of one packing house
in which I am interested.
ilr. ÍMaiíciiaxd. I have in mind a very active part that he took in
your behalf in the investigation in the ^lulkey case.
!Mr. !Mortox. He is the general manager of the M. I. and I. Line,
which is a boat line, Avhich boat line owns a number of A'essels on the
lake.
3Ir. Marciiaxd. He handles largeh* your salt ?
;Mi*. iloRTOx. He handles our salt, among other things.
^Ir. Marciiaxd. Mr. D. Peterkin—what is his connection with
yourself?
^Ir. iloRTOX. He has been Avith me for more than ten years. He is
in my emploj* and has been. He was formerly in the employ of
Mr. iloore.
!Mr. ÍMarciiaxd. Does Mr. Mark Morton have am*- relation to the
Hutchinson, Ivans., company?
ilr. iloRTOX. Mr. ^Mark ^Morton is treasurer.
ilr. !Marciiaxd. Then, Avith yourself, that makes up the seven
directors. Now, it has been testified to that the capital stock of this
railroad at Hutchinson is $80,000, of which Mr. Joseph P. Tracy
OAvns 794 shares. That Avill leave a share apiece for each of the other
directors?
!Mr*. ;Mortox. Yes, sir.
Mr. ÍIarciiaxd. Is IMr. Tracy's stock paid for?
Mr. Mortox. At 10 per cent, as testified to.
3Ir. JIarchaxd. Did ilr. Phillips, Mr. Baddeley, Mr. Vincent,,
all of them, furnish the monej^ to buy their stock ; furnish their own
money, one share apiece, $10 apiece?
Mr. Mortox. I don't knoAV Avhether they did or not. If they
didn't, Ave might have loaned it to them.
• jMr. IMARCiiAxn. Noav, out of the sale of stock vou have realized
$8,000? _ . '
Mr. jMortox^. Yes, sir.
Jlr. ^Marciiaxd. You have some figures as to your expenditures?
]\Ir. Mortox. TAventy-one thousand dollars.
3ilr. jMakciiaxd. VTiat other funds has this company?
85
• Mr. Moeton. They have a fund which they have drawn through
bankers, and through which source they have provision made to
complete this line if it siiould be necessary to bmld it to the other
place.
Mr. Mabchand. Have you any figures before you as to the income
from the traffic? ,
Mr. Mohton. .You mean from the traffic of the Hutcliimon and
Arkansas Hiver Railroad? I ]tove not the figur^j but the income
would be, I diould think, the diviâon whidi Mr. Bxddle testified we
received on bulk salt. That is the only thing it. has ever had any
income on.
Mr. Mabchand.- Dœa it approximate, all told, ^1,000 ?
Mr. Moeton. I do not think that it has bœn to exceed $10,(WO, or
may be $12,000. You have asked for the figiu-es, and they will'be
furnished. I do not know as regards the details. You shall have
that
Mr. IklABOHAND. Who is the treasurer of the railroad company?
We only know the pr^ident. -
Mr. Moeton. My brother Mark is treasurer. You will find in
most of these companifâ where I am interested I am ^nerally presi¬
dent and my brother Mark is treasurer or vice-pr^ifint.
Mr. Mahchand. Has any portion of this $21,000 gone to pay for a
salt plant at or near Hutchinson ?
Mr. Moeton. "What do you mean by that?
Mr. Marchand. What 1 say. Did you buy a salt plant with any
portion of that $21,0001
Mr. Morton; No, sir.
Mr. Marchand. Do you own the Queen City Salt Company?
hlr. Moeton. The land of the Queen City. I testified to that.
But the salt plant was removed. We could not consistently purdiase
salt plants with one-third of our present camcity idle.
Mr. Marchand. Under your charter, when is the balance of this
stock payable?
Mr. Morton. I do not knou^ that the elmrter states, but if it does
not I dîould say it was payable on call—^to be paid for whenevei- it is
called for. . ^
Mr. Marchand. You haven't bonded it ?
Mr. Morton. Not yet.
Mr. Marchand. "\VTiere is the general office of this Hutchinson
and Arkansis Hiver Ilailroad?
Mr. Morton. Great Northern Building, Cliicago.
Mr. Marchand. Then you consider that you are complying with
the laws of TCnnsa s when you have three directors located heref
Mr. Morton. I think I complv with the laws of Kansas. If re¬
quires three directors. I think that the fact that the other directors
are directors of or intere.sted in the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Com¬
pany isn't a bar upon them to act as directors for any otlicr company,
whether it be a transportation company or what not.
Mr. Marchand. Sinœ your railroad has been joined to these other
lines in the tariff, haven't you increased your shipments from the
East to Missouri Hiver points?
Mr. Morton. Well, we have increased our salt somewhat; yes, sir.
It was largely due to the fact that we were knocked out by Üio flood.
The first sliipmcnts were made for the reason that the packers hero
8G
RuíTered. I Jiican Kansas City. Wc were flooded here, by the waj^
For sonic days -we conld not do business here. The first .sliipinents
made by us of salt to the ilissouri Iliver this spring ivere made to
relieve the distress which followed the flood. But the shipments of
salt outside of us to the ^Missouri Biver have been greater during tlie
past twelve months, or since these divisions were put in, than they
have been at any time before in. ten years. .. I want to explain why
that was. The failure of the Xational Salt Company, which you
referred to, put upon the market an immense volume of salt. The
visible siipiily available for immediate market was never so great.
ifr. ^I.vüciiAxn. Didn't Mr. Ti*ac}' testify to that in the Mulkey
case?
Mr. Morton. I don't know as to that. I merely call «ttention to
the fact that salt has been extremely low in the East during the last
winter and sjiring and for the vear ending the 1st of July. The prices
have been extremely low. This district to-day is the most prosperous
district of which I have knowledge.
Mr. 3I.\i!ciiani). To whom is the division allowed the Hutchinson
and Arkansas Biver Bailroad paid?
;Mr. Morton. I don not know ; but it is to one of the officers of the
companv, not to me. I have not much to do with the details.
Mr. ^Marchand. Is it paid to the treasurer?
Mr. Morton. Well, I su2;)i50se it is.
iMr. ÍMarciiand It isn't paid to !Mr. Vincent, the resident manager '{
!Mr. Morton. Xo. sir. He doesn't know anything about the traffic
relations, so far as I know.
!Mr. Marchand. Those books are kejît all in Chicago, are they?
Mr. Morton. Yes, sir.
■ i\Ir. Marchand. Kept in your office; kept in the office of the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas Biver Bailroad in the Great Xorthern Building?
Mr. Morton. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^Marchand. That is, in your building ?
!Mr. Morton. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. ilr. Jlorton, you have said that the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas Biver Bailroad had bought about $21,000 worth
of property here in Hutchinson, some $8,000 of that consist of what
Avere formerh* the sidetracks of the^Morton Salt ComjAany.
ilr. ISIoRTON. By the way, Mr. Prouty, those sidetracks were
always owned and ahvays maintained at the expense of the salt com-
})any, or since their acquirement by the Hutchinson and Arkansas
BiA'er Bailroad, by that road. There has neA-er been a dollar spent by
any of these railroads in Hutchinson. .
Commissioner Prouty. In addition to those tracks, Avhat property
liaA'e you acquired here ?
Mr. Morton. Well, they have acquired a lot of lots, Avhich ilr.
Vincent referred to this morning. I do not remember hoAV many
there are, but there are a number of lots.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you knoAv how much you paid for the
lots?
Mr. Morton. I give you this statement of $21,000, because my
cashier told me that was the amount before I came here from Chicago."
Commissioner Prouty. You don't know the items?
Mr. Morton. I can not tell you Avhat they are.
87
Commissioner Peouty. It appears that the Kansas Salt Company
bought a salt plant and removed the works. I understood yon to
testify that.
]Mr. Moeton. "What's that?
Commissioner Prouty. A salt plant known as the " Queen City "—
is there or has there been such a plant here—was purchased by some¬
body. AVho bought that ?
iir. Moetox. Well, Älr. Vincent bought that on behalf of the
Hutchinson, Kans., Company. The Hutchinson, Kans., Company
paid for it.
Commissioner Peouty. AVliat did the Hutchinson,. Kans., Com¬
pany pay for that ?
Air. AIoeton. Nine thousand dollars.
Commissioner Peouty. AVliat have they done with it?
Air. AIoeton. Dismantled it and sold the land.
Commissioner Peouty. To the railroad company?
Air. AIoetox. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. How much did the railroad company pay
for the land ?
Air. AIoetox. Three thousand dollars. .
Commissioner Peouty. That would make $11,000. Now, $10,000
has been expended for other property that you can not account for.
Air. AIoetox. The Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company received the
payment of the tracks and nothing else.
Commissioner Peouty. But you did buy this salt works, and did
dismantle it, and sold the land. * Hpw much land was there ?
Air. AIoeton. There was 4 acres, I think. In my judgment it is
the best located strip of land for the purpose which we have intended
it for in this town. It is bounded on the north by the Alissouri
Pacific, and south by the Rock Island and the Santa Fe, and the
Hutchinson Southern runs over the end of it. It is a transfer yard.
There may be other places where you can reach all three roads, but
none so convenient to the district where we prefer to make the most
of our salt.
. Commissioner Peouty. Going back to the organization of this
railroad, it seems that a gentleman by the name of Tracy subscribed
for 794 of those shares. How did he happen to do it—at your
request ?
Air. AIoetox. Possibly.
. Commissioner Peouty. Did you-open the books of subscription
and he came in and took that amount as a good investment?
Air. AIoeton. I could not say as to that. Mr. Tracy may have
determined to dispose of it, for all I Imow.
Commissioner Peouty. AVas this railroad Air. Tracy's idea, or was
it your idea ?
Air. AIoeton. AVell, I think—I do not think it was Air. Tracy's
idea. I think it was an idea that Air. Vincent and I have had in
our minds for a number of years. That is, it followed the idea oi
consolidating our plants. I do not think that the railroad cut much
figure one way or the other. It was merely
Commissioner Peouty. Then, why didn't Air. Vincent take this
stock, if he was the man that originated the idea and know all about
it? Ilow did Air. Tracy happen to take that stock?
ilr. ifoBTON. I could not givo you the i-eason." I can not say why
it was.
Ckinimissioner PnouTV. Is he lax-gely interasted in your salt com¬
pany?
ilr. Mqrtox. lias no interest in the milt company at all._
Coinmissioner Pitotm-. But still he is the owner of this railroad,
Älr. Biddle testified that one time Mr. Ti'ac}' came to him and told
him that if this division would lie alloAved bulk salt would move to
the ^Missouri lUvcr, and if this division was not allowed it could not
move to the ^Missouri lîiver. You are pretty well acquainted with
IMr. Tracy ? '
Mr. Mqrtox. Yes, sir; very well,
Coinmissioner Proiity. Is he a man that tells the truth generally?
l^Ir. JIoRTOx. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pkouty. Did he tell the truth about that?
Sir, Mortox. I think he did. Salt did move. There has not been
as much moved as heretofore, but I admit that I authorized !Mr, Vin¬
cent to make a low iirîœ on bulk salt.
Commissioner Prouty, Mr, Tracy stated that bulk salt could not
move for this reason: Because competition from the East, competi¬
tion from Liverpool, was .so sharp that he could not manufacture it
lit that time. Was that a fact at that time?
Mr, Morton. Let me correct vou in a measure. Sir. Tracy related
more particularly to the conditions in the domestic salt trade, not in
the foreign trade. Now, I think Mr. Biddle mentioned the fact of
the large movement of foreign salt at a low rate to illustrate the con¬
ditions which governed at that time. Now, Mr. Biddle nor any other
of these traffic men would be likely to say anything to us about that
rate. I was not told this low rate at the time.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you feel in the sale of this bulk salt the
effect of Liverpool competition ?
IMr. ^loRTOX. Yes, sir; Kansas does feel the effect of Liverpool
competition, not only in the Missouri trade, but throughout the South.
The low rates that have been made, through rates in connection with
the boat linrai, and the wharfage companies have made very severe
competition in a large amount of territory. Now, this rate that Mr.
Biddle spoke of this morning was 14| cents; I believe that was the
division.
Commissioner Prouty. Yes; sis and a fraction cents from Gal¬
veston,
Air, JlIoRTON, 6,43 cents, I think. That would leave 8,32 to the
steamer and the wharf. Of course, export rates are something that
any manufacturer in this country—^they are an abomination to any
manufacturer or producer in this country. In my judgment they are
an abomination, '
Commissioner Prouty, Well, going back now to this conversation
with Mr. Tracy. Did Mr, Tracy go to Mr. Biddle at your suggestion !
Mr. Morton. I think he did. He is under my orders.
Commissioner Prouty. Was what he told Mr. Biddle a fact!
Mr, Morton, Wliat was that?
Commissioner Prouty, Tliat owing to competition the salt could
not .move to the Missouri Eiver unless he had tliat concession.
Mr, Morton. I think that it was absolutely n fact. I think it has
been proven so by what occurred afterwards, I Imow of 600 cars
89
that have been shipped to the Missouri River from the East, and I
have not knovn of that large a movement in a single 5''ear before.
■ Commissioner Prouty. Now, it appears that under this. division
certain money has been paid to the railroad company. M^liat has beén
done with that money ?
Mr. Mortox. Well, it is in the possession of the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad.
Commissioner Prouty. And Mr. Tracy, as the principal stock¬
holder, owns that money ?
Mr. JMortox. MTU, he is not the manager and board of directors.
Commissioner Prouty. He could make a board 'of directors. I
think he would be a manager.
Mr. Mortox. I think Mr. Tracy has, apparently, Avhat might be
called a large interest in that.
Commissioner Prouty. "Well, now, I want you to explain why it
was, if this money was paid to the railroad company and there "was
no connection between the railroad company and the salt company—
won't you explain how it was that the granting of a division to the
railroad company would enable the salt company to manufacture and
market salt on the Missouri River?
]\Ir. Mortox. I suppose that I could explain it by stating that the
salt company would be perfectly willing to donate something to hav¬
ing another railroad. We made a lower price than we would have
made if we hadn't promised to try to hold that business to Kansas.
Commissioner Prouty. You said that you were the president of the
salt company and of the railroad company. "What is jmur salary as
president of the railroad company? Anything?
Mr. Mortox. No.
Commissioner Prouty. And the railroad company don't pay it to
you in salary the money it gets?
Mr. Mortox. I should be very well rewarded, and Mr. Vincent
would be likewise, if we carried out this arrangement that we have
explained to you in regard to the 'Frisco road.
Commissioner Prouty. But I am talking about the movement of
salt from Hutchinson to the Missouri River. If there is no connec¬
tion between the railroad company and the salt company, what mo¬
tive had you in reducing, or in instructing ]\Ir. Vincent to make a
price of $2.10, which just covers the cost of production, at the Mis¬
souri River, in consideration that a division was allowed this rail¬
road ?
Mr. Mortox.- To hold the business.
Commissioner Prouty. You could have held the business in exactly
the same way if the railroad company didn't get the division. The
railroad company made the money, and you have not got anything
out of it.
Mr. Mortox'. True; but I might have.
Commissioner Prouty. It never occurred to you that way before—
that you were not getting any benefit of it ?
Mr. Mortox. It has not been settled yet.
Commissioner Prouty. Are your relations to Mr. Tracy such, your
feelings such, that you would want to give him this money?
Mr. Mortox. AVcll, I have confidence in Mr. Tracy.
Commissioner Prouty. You think he would use that money judi¬
ciously?
90
Mr. ^Mouton. Xo doubt of it.
Coininissioncr Puouty. I think that is all.
iSIr. IVIautix. If you ^vc^c to carry out that scheme you ■svould
make some profit on your railroad, would you not?
Commissioner Ih:ouTY. It wouldn't do him any good; he only
owns one share.
!Mr. Moutox. !Mr. Prout}', if I chose to do so it is possible that I
might have had one or two shares more.
Commissioner I'iîouïy. Well, that is what I intended to ask. Does
:Mr. T racy own that stock for you as trustee?
iNIr. iloKTOX^ lie doesn't hold it as trustee. I think it is fair to
say that he holds it in the nature of a trustee. It is in his name;
hut I think it would he proper to state
Commissioner Pkouty. You think for the purpose of testifying he
owns the stock; hut 3'ou really own the stock?
Mr. ^loRTOX. I want it distincth' understood that he doesn't own
the stock for the Hutchinson, Kans., companj'.
Commissioner Prouty. You need not answer this question unless
j'ou Avant to. Is A'our interest in the Hutchinson, Kans., companj' a
controlling interest?
!Mr. ^loRTOX. It is ahsolutelj' all the shares?
Commissioner Prouty. So j'ou reallj' OAvn the Hutchinson, Kans.,
Salt Companj' ?
iMr. iMoRTOx. The people I represent oAvn all the shares; yes, sir.
Witness excused.
^ir. ^Marcuaxd. iMr. Baddelej' Avas requested to produccsome fig¬
ures.
J. C. Baddeley, recalled.
Mr. Marcuaxd. You Avere asked to produce some figures of ton¬
nage; Avhat haA'e A'ou ?
iNIr. Baddeley. I haAe it in barrels. You asked me, I believe, for
a statement of the hulk shipments and the package shipments for this
A'car. ■ Is that right ?
Mr. ÍMarciiaxd. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. Xoav Avait. The hulk statement and the
shipments from plant or plants.
Mr. Marcuaxd. From the plants of the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt.
Company. Mliat is that j'ou liaA'e, Mr. Baddelej' ?
ilr. ÍÍartix. If I may be permitted to suggest, Ave haA'e not asked,
nor do Ave know, Avhat the movement is in barrels or tons of our com¬
petitors, and, as a matter' of fairness, I do not belieA'e that jMr.
BaddeleA' should be required to state just hoAv many barrels of salt
have been shipjDed from the Hutchinson, Kans., company this year.
I Avill leave that to J'ou; I submit that for your consideration.
Commissioner Prouty. IMiat is the materialitj', Mr. IMarchand? .
iVIr. Marcuaxd. I have asked, if your honor please, the amount of
bulk salt shipped from Hutchinson to Missouri EiA'er points.
Commissioner Prouty. I think you are entitled to that. Is that
what 3-0U have ?
Mr. Baddeley. Can I gÍA'e it in cars ?
Mr. Marcuaxd. I want it in tons.
Commissioner Prouty. Have you got it in tons ?
Mr. Baddeley. I have it in barrels.
I) .
91 •
Commi^ioner Phouty. A barrel «jutakis bow much?
]!kir. BiDDEtEY. Two htmdred and eighty pounds.
Mr. Mahchaxd. We asted for the amount of bulk salt shipped
from the Hutchinson, Kan&, Salt Company to pointé on the Miœourî
Eiver during th^ear 1903.
Mr. Makhst. Imat is, for the eleren months.
]Mr. Marchastd. Yes, sir.
Mr. hiAETix. I would be Tcry glad, indeed, to furnish it under oath ;
but it is an exposition of our prhnte business that we do not ask
these other gentlemen to make. Mr. Vincent t^tified that it was
about 25 per cent; but to give the exact figures, it simply publishes
our business. ' . '
jilx. JMabchaxd. We have no other way of ascertaining what this
diviâon is—^what advantage they have over the independent pro¬
ducers unless we have this information.
]\rr. ÜMahtix. That is in the nature of a private business.
Mr. JIaeciiaxd. You object.to it being testified to in court?
Mr. ^Mahtist. Yes, sir; because all our comj^titors are in court. ■
Mr. Baddeuey. This would be no information, because it contains
áll the bulk shipments we have made to Kansas, and not merely to
Missouri Eiver points. I have not got them separate.
Gammiasioner Peottty. To what other points in Kansas do ;fou
ship bulk salt? To whom do you ship bulk salt except to packing
houœs?
Mr. Baddeuey. Well, it it not a very considerable. xiroportion ;
amie to Wichita, some to Topeka-^ good deal to Topeka; and then
there are a great many stores over the country that use bulk salt ; the
sack men use a good deal of bulk salt. And we have never Mt the
necessity of keeping the padrers' business separate from the general
trade, or the.Missouri Eiver packers separate from the Missouri
Eiver trade. We classify the shipments in States, and unless I were
to take every invoice and pide out the bulk salt I could not give it in
the shape ^ír. Marchand adíed for it.
Commissioner Peouty. The other salt manufacturers here in
Hutchinson have testified, Mr. Martin—voluntarily, of course—as to
the amount of bulk salt which they ship to the Mi^uri Eiver, and
Mr. Barton testified as to his contract with the Swift Company.
Mr. SlAKrix. That has expired. !..
Commissioner Peouty. I have no disposition in this investigation,
rertainly not at this stage of.it,-to require you to state anything with
reference to your private matters that you object to stating irymblic,
but at some sub^ucnt proceedings it may he necessary. This in¬
quiry is merely into the transportation, and your company is not a
parfy. You are not obliged to answer that question.
IVIr. Maetin. lie may an.swer it. I think that is the better way. "
Mr. Baddeley. Number of barrels of bulk salt diipped, 233,282
barrels, from the Ist of January up to the end of November.
Iklr. Maetdt. That is equivalent to about 32,000 tons.- That
covered all territory, as Mr. Baddeley has testified.
Mr. ]Mahciiand. We would like tp have from this company a state¬
ment as to the exact tonnage to ^lissouri Eiver points, your honor.
That you may file with the Commission.
Commi.ssioner Peouti'. You may file that with the Commission,
Mr, Morton, whidi will be treated as property of the Commission.
92
Anything further, Mr. Marchand?
^Ir. ^rAiiciiANi). That is all, your honor.
"Witness c.\cusj[id.
^Ir. Maiîchani). M'e have no other witness at present. .•
Coininissioner Pitoirrv. Mr. Martin, have you anything further?
iNIi'. Maktin. Nothing further, if your honor please.
Commissioner Pkoutv. It does not occur to ine at this minute that
the Commission will desire any further testimony in addition to the
statements wliich are to he furnished bj' the traffic officials of the
various roads. IVq may, however, like to inquire further into the
operations of this Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Com-
¡lany. It seems to be a new interstate railroad.
Jir. Maiíti.v. "We are not an interstate railroad.
Commissioner Piioutv. You are handling interstate business.
!Mr. Mautix. Well, we will make report.
Commissioner Piîoutv. We may desire to inquire somewhat fur¬
ther into this matter. If so,' we may do so at Chicago, where the
books are located and where your offices are; and if we should do
that in the near future it would be on the 2'2d day of this month.
We have a hearing at Detroit on the 21st. I won't continue this case
to that time now, but simply intimate to 3'ou gentlemen that we maj'
take that matter up for that purpose at Chicago on the 22d of-this
month; otherwise the hearing will now stand adjourned.
BEFORE The IXTERSTATE COmiERCE comiission.
IN THE ilATTER OF THE THANSPOIITATION OP SALT PROM
HUTCHINSON, KANS.
heabiko at chicado, hx., secembeb 22, 1808.
Present: Commissioners Yeomans and Prouty.
Appearances: Mr. H. MTiiteside, coimsel, Atchison, Topeka and
Santa Fe Railway Company et al.; Mr. E, A. Jackson, general attor¬
ney, Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railway Company; Mr.
Burry, counsel for Mr. Paul Morton.
Chicago, li^., December 22,1903—11 a. m.
Commissioner Yeomans. The Commission is here to take some fur¬
ther testimony in the Hutchinson, Kans., salt case—In the matter
of the Transportation of Salt from Hutchinson, Kans." Commis¬
sioner Prouty took the testimony, and he will conduct this investiga¬
tion.
Commissioner Paomr. Is the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
Railroad repre^ted here?
Mr. Whiteside. I represent them.
Commissioner Peoutt. The Santa Fe system is represented by Mr.
Biddle. . .
Mr. Biddle. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Pbouty. The Missouri Pacific by Mr. Stith.
Mr. Stith. Yes, sir. .
Commissioner Peoutt. And the Rock Island by Mr. Jaclcson.
Mr. Jackson. , Yes, sir
Mr. Bceey. Mr. Morton received one copy, an unofficial copy, of
the testimony taken at Hutchinson, and he also received an official
copy. In reading them both over he thinlcs that there is a little
doubt, concerning which he would like to make a short addendum to
his tastimony—^it is very short; just a few words—^if the court will
permit it.
Commissioner Peoutt, Certainly.
Mr. Morton. There seems to be some confusion in the meaning of
my testimony in regard to the ownership of the H. K.^—the Huttmin-
son, Kans,, Salt Company stoclc. As stockholders, my brother Mark
andT have a small interest; in addition to this we have salaries to
the amount of ^,600 a year for the two of us, N^rly all the stock
of the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company is held in New York as
collateral to a loan made by Mr. "iVlIson, who I do not know; and
this stock, when the loan is paid would go to the United States
Mortgage and Trust Company of New York, who were trustees of a
mortgage securing a certain mortgage and tlie collateral bonds of the
(03)
94
International Salt Company of Xew Jersey, of which bonds I and
iny brother own a number. I wanted to explain that because it
ai)peared from tlie testimony that I was the owner of the Hutchinson,
Ivans., Salt Company, which is not a fact.- •
Commissioner Pkouty. I think you said at Hutchinson that you
and the i)er.s()ns whom you represent own the stock.
^Ir. ^Monrox. I5ut I thought it a little better to make the statement
clearer, so that you would understand what my interest was. That
is the only statement I care to make.
Oh, in regard to this matter of this railroad: I hare acted in the
matter with the utmost good faith, believing everything is legal and
in proper fashion; but if in the opinion of your honor who heard
the case it ought to be discontinued, I shall be very glad to have it
discontinued as far as we are concerned forthwith. I have not been
asked to do that by any railroad people there.
Commissioner Pnouxv. The Commission has expressed no opinion
about that at all; and as I consider the testimony which was taken
at Hutchinson there are one or two other things which it would seem
])roper to develop, and which could not be bi'ought out at Hutchinson
because the books were not there; after that the Commission will
take the matter under advisement and make some kind of a report.
!Mark ^Iortox, having been duly sworn, testified as follows :
Commissioner Proutv. You are the treasurer of the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad Companj'?
ilr. JIoRTOX. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. "We would like to know from j'ou what sums
of money you have received from the Santa Fe road, the Missouri
Pacific, and the Rock Island, and when you received them.
Mr. iloRTpx. "Well, I have a certified copy of my books here, which
I will turn in to you. We don't "show the dates they were received,
but I will give you the dates if you desire them.
Commissioner Pkottiy. You could supplement that statement by
showing the dates?
!Mr. iloRTON. Yes; I have that, thinking you might want it.
Commissioner Prouty. I think you may file both of these state¬
ments as part of j-our testimonj', Mr. Morton.
(The same are hereto attached.)
Commissioner Prouty. That is all we require from j-ou. Just let
me ask you one. more question. "\"FIiien these sums were paid you by
the Santa Fe Company, for instance, how was the amount which was
to be paid arrived at?
Mr. Morton. In the regular settlement between railroads through
the auditor's office. AYe checked up at the end of the month, and they
either authorized us to make a draft on them, or them on us.
Commissioner Prouty. Do you know personallj' about the details
of this particular settlement?
Mr. ÄIoRTON. Xo; I do not know the details.
Commissioner Prouty. The money was simplj' paid to jmu, and
you received it?- '
Mr. jMorton. Yes, sir; as treasurer.
Commissioner Prouty. AYould anyone like to ask Mr. Morton an}'
question ?
AAhtness excused.
95
Commissioner Peouty. Now, is there some representative of the
Santa Fe here who can state how this amount was arrived at?
ilr. Biddle. I think I can.
Commissioner Prouty. Just sit down and tell us how the accounts
were kejpt. between your company and this company, and who kept
them. •
Mr..Biddle. After I had made the arrangement with the Tlntch-
inson and Arkansas River Railroad Company our accounting depart¬
ment were advised as to what tlie arrangement was—that it was an
arrangement on a certain basis Avith another railroad company. Fol¬
lowing that, and after the shipments had been made and delivered to
us by the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Comjiaii}', the
officers of that company filed—presented to our people a bill shoAving
the shipments made on aa-hich it Avas claimed that this arrangement
applied. That Avas checked up by our accounting department and
when found correct the Hutchinson and Arkansas RÍA'er Railroad
Company Avere authorized to draw for that amount, Avhich they did,
and the payment Avas regularly made through our treasury depart¬
ment, our financial department, to the officers of the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad Coniiiany.
Commissioner Prouty. I see that most, if not all, of the i loney
paid by your company Avas paid on June 8; Avas that June 8 last?
Mri Biddle. June 8,1903. I can not, of course, say hoAV long after
the shipments were made before the statement Avas hied, or before it
was checked up and the authority given to draAV ; but you remember,
Mr. Commissioner, that you asked me in Hutchinson for certain infor¬
mation aa'hich, as I recollect it, aa'as practically a transcript of the
billing shoAving on Avhat these payments Avere made. I haA'e asked
for this information, but on account of the season of the year and all,
it has not as yet reached me, but I presume it Avill be here in the
course of- a feAv days. You also asked for the statement shoAving
the business to the îlissouri RÍA'er, the amount paid to the Hutchin¬
son and Arkansas RÍA'er Railroad Company, and a copy of the check
showing how it was made. , That information is being prepared for
you.
Commissioner Prouty. It is not yet prepared?
Mr. Biddle. No, sir; it has not been.
Commissioner 1'routy. Hoav often do yoii' ordinarily settle your
accounts Avith different railroads?
Mr. Biddle. Why, ordinarily I Avould imagine' the settlements Avere
made monthly Avitli the large companies; possibly in some other
cases quarterly. I mean by that that the statement is probably pre¬
pared as soon after the close of the month's business as possible and
sent to the other company.
Commissioner Prouty. Can you state Avhcther you paid these divi¬
sions on salt coming from any other mill at Hutchinson than Avhat
Avas knoAvn as the iMorton mill ?
Mr. Biddle. I can not make that statement, Älr. Commissioner,
until I get the statement of the billing shoAving on Avhich it Avas paid,
Avhich Avill shoAV full information about that.
Commissioner 1'routy. I think that is all.
Witness excused.
Commissioner Prouty. Mr. Stith, is there some representative of
the Missouri Pacific , ■
9G
Mr. Stith. Mr. Commissioner, I will make any statement you de¬
sire, I have already been sworn.
Coniinissiimer Pibjuty. Now, what we want to know, Mr. Stith, is
î10w the accounts were kept lietween your eonipanj' and the Hutchin¬
son and Arkansas liiver Kailroad Company.
3ir. Stitu. We have what they call an interline freight accounL
Tlie practice was for the Hutchinson and Arkansas Hiver liailroad
Company to send to oiir auditor a statement of cars of bulk salt
whicn had been ship|ied for the month prior to the date on which the
statement was made, which statement was cliecked and verified by our
auditor and the Hutchinson and Arkansas Hiver Railroad Company
notified of the correctness of their statement or of any corrections
that would have to bo made in the statement, and they were author¬
ized to draw upon our local treasurer at St. Louis for the amount of
the verified uccuuiit. That was usually followed by a draft made,
drawn bv the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad, direct to our
financiaf officer, which was in turn j)aid. That is the modus oper¬
andi.
Commissioner Phoity. You have no physical connection with the
tracks of the Hutchinson and Arkansas lîiver Railroad, have you?
Mr. Stitii. I think not, except that by a common understanding
or agifement the tracks at Hutchinson are open to the tliree lines
alike ; we have as much connection with them as anybody, I take it.
Commissioner Pcouxv. Previous to the organization of this rail-
innd company, when you received salt from the Morton mill, how
did it reach your line f
3Ir. Snxit. Either by tlie Rock Island or Santa Fe engines. We
have no service on that side of town.
Commissioner Pnoxrxx-. Did yo» pay the Rock Island or the Santa
Fe for the perfonnance of that service?
Mr. Stixii. We paid our proportion of the general service in the
Hutchinson yard. * '
Commissioner I'eoctx". Since the organization of this railroad com¬
pany there has been no change made in that resijeet?
3Ír. Snxir. No. sir; not that I know of.
Commissioner pEotTXY. Did j-on pay this dirision on all bulk salt
which you transported from Hutchinson to the ]Rissouri Rivei'?
Mr. DTixii. Only on the salt which came to us on the billing of the
Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad.
Commissioner Peouxí-, Certain salt was billed by that railroad?
Mr. Stixii. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. '
Commissioner pEOtrxir. Well, I am probably mistakeii about it, but
I had in my mind that the testimony taken at Hutchinson showed
that tliCT made no bills,
Mr. Sxixii. It came to us as being salt originating on that track;
that is the information I wanted to give you.
Commissioner Pikjuty. I want to find out just how you got that
infonnatioii. ]
jSIr. Sxixii. We got that information—the information of those
cars moved came to us through the statement rendered by the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas River Railroad Company, which we verified to
see if we had actually carried the cars.
Commissioner Phodty. And you do not know whether that state¬
ment included all the bulk œlt you moved from Hutchinson to the
97
Missouri River or whether it included, merely that salt which origin¬
ated at the Morton mill ?
Mr. Stith. I do not know that it actually included that at the mill,
but I am satisfied that is- all it included. I am reasonably well
satisfied.
Commissioner Peouty. The testimony at Hutchinson was that
ordinarily this bulk salt was shipped from the Morton mill, while I
think in some cases it originated at other mills. Now, in case it
originated^ at one of the other mills, you do not know whether you
paid the division or not ? ■ '
Mr. Stitii. I do not know that we* would, but I don't think we
would.
Commissioner Peouty. You received a statement from the Hutch¬
inson and Arkansas River Railroad Company ?
Mr. Stith.. Yes, sir. '
Commissioner Peouty. And you checked that over?
Mr. Stith. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. And you find out that you had received
that much bulk salt or those carloads of bulk salt at Hutchinson, and
then you paid the division?
Mr. Stith." Paid the division.
Commissioner Peouty. Do you know whether the Hutchinson and
Arkansas River Railroad did bill this out or whether it was billed
out by the Hutchinson, Kans., Salt Company?
Mr. Stith. If the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Com¬
pany billed it out, it would have to be first billed by the Hutchinson
Salt Company. ' • ,
Commissioner Peouty. You do not know whether the Hutchinson
and Arkansas River Railroad in any ivay intervened in these ship¬
ments on the papers ?
Mr. Stith. I do not know as to that. I could not answer that
question.
Commissioner Peouty. Mr. Vincent, how was that? You were
the manager in charge of this railroad, I believe. Did that railroad
issue a bill of lading for this salt ?
Mr. VI^•CENT. It did not; no, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. There was no change in the actual billing
and transporting of the salt after the organization of this railroad,
was there ?
Mr. Vincext. No, sir.
Commissioner Peouty. Do you know anything about how those
accounts were rendered by the railroad to the different systems—the
Santa Fe, the Rock Island, and the Missouri Pacific?
Mr. VixcEXT. I do not know.
Commissioner Peouty. Those accounts were rendered from Chi¬
cago ?
Mr. Vixcext. I presume so ; yes, sir..
IMr. Stith and Mr. Vincent excused.
Commissioner I'eouty. Mr. Joy Morton, do you know who in the
office of the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Company at
Chicago issued those statements?
jMr. Moetox. "VVe receive statements of the shipments daily by the
Hutchinson, Kans., company to the Hutchinson and Arkansas River
7s8a—0*j m 7
98
I?a¡lroad, and from that statement tlie clerk makes out the statement
of the shipments of hulk salt. To tlie best of my knowledge and
belief, there was no salt included e.xcept that from the ilorton plant.
That was shown'in ^Ir. Vincent's testimony. There was no salt in¬
cluded in the Hutchinson and Arkansas lliver Railroad statement
shipped by anybody else. There was a little inference that possibly
there might have been. Those statements were made up from the
daily shipments, and at the end of the month were sent to the various
auditors of the railroad companies.
Commissioner PaouTV. ilr. Holden, you have heard the testimony
of the dillerent parties here with reference to the way these accounts
were kept with the ^Missouri Pacific and the Santa Fe. Were they
kej)t in the same way with your company?
jlr. Holdex. Well, now, I have brought over our auditor,of freight
traille, who can tell you exactly how they were kept. »
. AV. H. Burnes, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
Commissioner Proutv. What is the witness's name ?
ATr. Burnes. AV. H. Burnes.
Commissioner Prouty. AAliat is your official connection with the
Rock Island system ?
Air. Burnes. Auditor freight traffic.
Commissioner Prouty. I see from this statement that your com¬
pany paid the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad Company a
certain sum by way of division; state how these amounts were ar¬
rived at.
Mr. Burnes. AAliy, the Hutchinson and Arkansas road sent us a
statement showing the car numbers and the dates, the weights, etc.
AA'^e checked those statements against our reports to find out whether
we actuallj' handled the shipments. If we did, why, we would pay
them their divisions on those cars.
Commissioner Prouty. According to your understanding, on what
were these divisions to be paid?
Mr. Burnes. On the rate from Hutchinson.
Commissioner Prouty. On what?
Mr. Burnes. Bulk salt from Hutchinson.
Commissioner Prouty. AAlien statement was rendered to you by
the Hutchinson and Arkansas River Railroad, you simply ascer¬
tained whether you had handled those cars of bulk salt from Hutch¬
inson to the Missouri River?
Mr. Burnes. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. And if 3mu found that ,you had made that
transportation, you authorized the pajunent of this division?
Mr. Burnes. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. The statement came to jmu in all cases in
the first instance from the Hutchinson and Ai'kansas River Railroad
Comijany?
Mr. Burnes. Yes, sir.
Commissioner Prouty. As \'ou keep your accounts with other rail¬
road companies, is that the ordinary method of doing it?
. Mr. Burnes. No, that is not the customary way of handling ac¬
counts with railroad companies. As a rule, the other roads made a
bill of some kind, but in this case we simply got a statement of the
cars.
99
Commissioner Peoxttt. I tliink tiiat is all.
Mr. Jacksoîî. Tlie division on bulk salt, as I understand it, only
applies on freight to the Mi«3uri Biver.-
Sir. BtTRXES. To the Missouri Eiver only.
Mr. Houoeh. I should Hke to ask Mr. Burnes a question. Are you
familiar -with any settlement with any railroad companies on a simi¬
lar basis to this, where a short line simply makes the bill against the
railroad company for the business intereliañged?
Mr. Burnes. Y^, sir; I think we have one road, the Kansas
Southwestern.
Mr. HouDiaT. They dont make a waybill?
• Mr. Burnes. No ; they don't make a waybill. In that case the
freight originates on our line and crones over their line and termi¬
nates again upon our line. ■ ^
Commissioner Yemmans. That is all^ unless some person wants to
make some statement or aslc some question.
At 11.30 a. m. the Commission thereupon adjourned. ,
r. n
[Public—No. 274.]
An Act To promote the safety of employees and travelera^on rail¬
roads by limiting the hours of service of employees thereon.
Beit enacted iy the Senate and Home of li^esentatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled, Tiiat the provisions of this
Act shall apply to any common carrier or carriers, their ofBcers,
agents, and employees, engaged in the transportation of passengers
or property by railroad in the District of Columbia or anj' Territory
of the United States, or from one State or Territory of the United
States or the District of Columbia to any other State or Territory
of the United States or the District of Columbia, or from any place
in the United States to an adjacent foreign country, or from any place
in the United States through a foreign country to any other place in the
United States. The term " railroad" as used in this Act shall include
all bridges and ferries used or operated in connection with any rail¬
road, and also all the road in use by any common carrier operating a
railroad, whether owned or opei-ated under a contract, agreement, or
lease; and the term " employees " as used in this Act shml be held to
mean persons actually engaged in or connected with the movement of
any train.
Sec. 2. That it shall be unlawful for any common carrier, its officers
or agents, subject to this Act to require or permit any employee sub¬
ject to this Act to be or remain on dut}' for a longer period than six¬
teen consecutive hours, and whenever any such employee of such com¬
mon carrier shall have been continuously on duty lor sixteen hours he
shall be relieved and. not required or permitted again to go on duty
until he has had at least ten consecutive hours off duty; and no such
employee who has been on duty sixteen hours in the aggregate in
any twenty-four-hour period shall be required or permitted to continue
or again go on duty without having had at least eight consecutive
hours off duty: Provided, That no operator, train dispatcher, or other
employee who by the use of the telegraph or telephone dispatches,
reports, transmits, receives, or delivers orders pertaining to or affect¬
ing train movements shall be required or permitted to be or remain on
duty for a longer period than nine hours in any twenty-four-hour
period in all towers, offices, places, and stations continuously operated
night and day, nor for a longer period than thirteen hours in all
towers, offices, places, and stations operated only during the daytime,
except in case of emergency, when tlie employees named in this pro¬
viso may be permitted to be and remain on duty for four additional
hours in a twenty-four-hour period on not exceeding three days in
any week: Provided further. The Interstate Commerce Commission
may after full hearing in a particular case and for good cause shown
extend the period within which a common carrier shall comply with
the provisions of this proviso as +0 such case.
Sec. 3. That any such common carrier, or any officer or agent thereof,
requiring or permitting any employee to go, be, or remain on duty in
violation of the second section hereof, shall be liable to a penalty of
not to exceed five hundred dollars for each and every violation, to be
[ruD. 274,1
2
recovered in a suit or suits to be brought by the United State.s district
attorney' in tiic di.strict court of tho United States having jurisdic¬
tion in tiie locality wiicre sucii violation shall have been committed;
and it shall bo the duty of such district attorney to bring such
suits upon sati.sfactory information being lodged with him; but no
such suit shall he brought after tho expiration of one year from tho
date of such violation; and it shall also be the duty of the Interstate
Commerce Commission to lodge with the proper district attorneys
information of any such violations as may come toits knowledge. In all
prosecutions under this Act the common carrier shall be deemed to have
Iiad knowledge of all acts of all its oilicers and agents: Provided. That
the provisions of this Act shall not appl}' in any case of casualty or
unavoidable accident or tho act of God; nor where the delay was the
result of a cause not known to the carrier or its officer or agent in
charge of such employee at the time said employee left a terminal, and
which could not have been forc.seen: Provided further., That the pro¬
visions of this Act shall not apply to the crews of wrecking or relief
trains.
Sec. 4. It shall be the duty of the Interstate Commerce Commi,ssion
to execute and enforce the provisions of this Act, and all powers
granted to tho Interstate Commerce Commission are hereby extended
to it in the execution of this Act.
Sec. 5. That this Act shall take effect and be in force one year after
its passage.
Approved, March 4, 1907, 11.50 a. m.