REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR 
 CATCHING OF SPONGES 
 
 SH 396 
 .U6 
 
 Copy 1 HEARINGS 
 
 I nn 
 
 BEFORE 
 
 THE COMMITTEE ON THE MERCHANT 
 MARINE AND FISHERIES 
 
 HOUSE OF REPRESFNTATIVES 
 
 ON 
 
 S. 6385 
 
 TO REGULATE THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES IN THE 
 WATERS OF THE GULF OF MEXICO AND STRAITS OF 
 FLORIDA; THE LANDING, DELIVERING, CURING, SELL- 
 ING, OR DISPOSING OF THE SAME; PROVIDING 
 MEANS OF ENFORCEMENT OF SAME; AND 
 FOR OTHER PURPOSES 
 
 THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 1912 
 
 WASHINGTON ' 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OEFIOE 
 
 1912 
 
[S. 6385, Sixty-second Congress, second session.] 
 
 A RTr r Tn rPfrnl-ifp the taking or catchine of sponges in the waters of the Gulf of Mexico and Straits of 
 '^llodda7the1and\ng';^dS^^ or disposing of the same; providing means of enforce- 
 
 ment of same; and for other purposes. 
 
 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United Stcvf^es of ^^^^^ 
 in Congress assembled, That on and after the approval o this f Vlltni to ^he Tawl 
 for any citizen of the United States or person owing duty ot obedience to the laws,- 
 of the UnSed Spates, or any boat or vessel of the United States or person belonging; 
 ?o or on board such boat or vessel to take or catch any commercial sponges, by means 
 of S Xg o? cfiving apparatus, in the waters of the Gulf of Mexico or Straits of Honda 
 outside of State territoiial limits, or to land, deliver, cure, offer for .sale, <.r have 
 hrpossession at any port or place in the United States or on any boat or vessel of. 
 the^United States aiw commercial sponges taken by means of diving in said waters^ 
 Prorided Th:t sponges taken by means of diving ^PP^^^*^^. between the first c^ay 
 of October and the first day of July following, of each year in \^epth otjatei no 
 less than forty feet nor more than one hundred and fifty feet shall not be subjec 
 
 ^•'s'c r^^arrsLS'^rJl^wfuHor any and all pensons, boats, -vessels descriM 
 in the' first section of this act to take or catch, by any means or method, in the watei, 
 o" the Gulf of Mexico or the Straits of Florida outside of State territorial limits, ol 
 to land deliver, cure, offer for sale, or have in possession, at any por. or place u 
 tL United States or on any boat or vessel of the United States, any commercial sponge 
 taken "n said waters measm-ing, when wet, less than five inches m their maximu 
 
 '^Te?!' That the presence of sponges on any vessel or boat of the United Stat 
 equipped with diving apparatus, or serving as a living or deposit boat ^or jiiye 
 between July first and October first of each year, or the presence of sponges ot a diat, 
 eter less than five inches on said vessels at any time, or ttie P/esence ot spongesj 
 Lss than the said diameter on anv other vessel or boat of the Unitec States engage) 
 n spottghig on the waters of the Gulf of Mexico or the Strait. -/ Fl-id%ou s.de . 
 State territorial limits, or the possession of any spouses o less than the sai dian 
 eter sold or delivered by such vessels shall be prima faoe evidence of a violatK 
 
 ''' Sec '4? That every person guilty of a violation of this act .shall for each offense 
 liaWe to a fine of not ess than one hundred dollars nor more than five hundred d 
 ars which fine shall be a lien against, the vessel on whkh tl;e offense was^committ^ 
 And every vessel used or emp oyed m violation of this act .shal be liable to at 
 of not Shan one hundred d'ollL nor more than five hundred folia-, or forfeitu^; 
 and shall be seized and proceeded against by process of l^^^l m any court hav 
 iurisdiction of the offense: Provided, That every person or vessel guilty of a violatl 
 of sectTonTwo of this act shall be liable to a fine of fifty cents for each sponge of a ) 
 diameter than five inches found in the possession of such person or vesseL 
 
 Sec. 5. That any violation of this act shall be prosecuted i" the district 
 of the United States of the district wherein the offender is found or into wt 
 
 '' SEC.^6-''Tfat it shall be the duty of the Secretary of Commerce and Labor to | 
 
 the provisions of this act, and upon his request thf Secretary of the Treas 
 the Secretary of the Navy may employ vessels of the Revenue-Cutter Serv 
 of the Navy, respectively, to that end. 
 
 2 n, <VlP "^ 
 
.\9 
 
 ^^''.>" 
 
 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Committee on the 
 Merchant Marine and Fisheries, 
 
 House of Representatives, 
 
 Thursday, August 1, 1912. 
 The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. Joshua W. Alex- 
 ander (chairman) presidmg. 
 
 Tlie Chairman. If there is no objection, we will go ahead with the 
 hearing on Senate bill 6385, a bill to regulate the taking or catching 
 of sponges in the waters of the Gulf of Mexico and Straits of Florida; 
 the landing, delivermg, curing, selling, or disposmg of the same; 
 providing means for enforcement of same; and for other purposes. 
 This hearmg is held at the request of Mr. Sparkman, and we will 
 proceed. 
 
 STATEMENT OF HON. STEPHEN M. SPARKMAN, A REPRESENTA- 
 TIVE FROM THE, STATE OF FLORIDA. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I shall make only a brief state- 
 ment, the main purpose being to mtroduce a couple of gentlemen to 
 the committee, Mr. Cheyney and Mr. Meindanis, both of Tarpon 
 Springs, the center of the sponge industry in Florida and practically 
 in the United States, because all the sponges gathered in American 
 and nearby waters are taken from the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of 
 Florida. 
 
 This is not a new proposition here, for in 1906 there was quite an 
 agitation coming, first, from Key West, where the sponge industry 
 had been carried on for many years, and, secondly, from Tarpon 
 Springs and vicinity, for some legislation on the subject, there hav- 
 ing been none prior to that time, that is, no national legislation. 
 After an extended hearing before the Committee on the Merchant 
 Marine and Fisheries a bill was reported from that committee which 
 was enacted into law and approved June 20, 1906. That law only 
 undertook to prohibit the landing, delivering, curing, or offering for 
 sale at any port or place in the United States any sponges taken by 
 means of diving or diving apparatus from the waters of the Gulf of 
 Mexico or Straits of Florida with a proviso — 
 
 that sponges taken or gathered by such process between October first and May first of 
 each year in a greater depth of water than fifty feet shall not be subject to the pro- 
 visions of this act: And provided further, That lio sponges taken from said waters shall 
 be landed, delivered, cured, or offered for sale at any port or place in the United 
 States of a smaller size than four inches in diameter. 
 
 The trouble at that time, as I intimated a moment ago, came, first, 
 frorn Key West. For a half century perhaps, sponging had been 
 carried on in Florida waters, mostly in the waters north and north- 
 east of the island of Key West. That was done by a method known 
 
 3 
 
4 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OP SPONGES. 
 
 as hooking, a very primitive means of gathering sponges. The 
 operator takes a pole upon which a hook or hooks are placed with 
 wliich, while lying face downward in a yawl or skiff boat, propelled 
 through the water, and looking through a bucket-like contrivance 
 with a glass bottom, he can look and gather the sponges at con- 
 siderable depths, not greater, however, than 50 feet. 
 
 You will observe, as I said, that was a very primitive method of 
 carrying on that business. The business was carried on by this 
 method for many years, and quite an industry had sprung up in 
 Key West. Gradually working up the Gulf coast they had by 1905 
 extended their operations north of Tarpon Springs, a town about 35 
 miles northwest of Tampa, with Tarpon Springs as the center of 
 operations. In other words, the sponges gathered north of Tamj)a 
 Bay were carried into Tarpon Springs from time to time, cleaned, 
 placed in marketable condition, and shipj)ed by rail to other markets. 
 
 About 1904 or 1905 a lot of Greeks located there and inaugurated 
 what is known as the diving method of gathering sponges, which 
 soon worked a revolution in the industry and was rapidly driving 
 the hookers out of the business. The divers could gather sponges 
 more rapidly and in much greater quantities than the hookers, and the 
 latter finding it impossible to compete with the former, came here 
 asking for legislation, either to ])robibit entirely or to restrict as much 
 as might be possible the operations of the divers. 
 
 These divers, I may say, using diving suits can operate in 200 
 feet of water, perhaps even in greater depths, as they had been 
 accustomed to doing in the waters of the Mediterranean, which con- 
 tains valuable sponge grounds, and where they had learned the art 
 of diving. 
 
 Senator Taliaferro, at that time a Senator from Florida, was 
 appealed to by the Key West people, and he introduced and had 
 passed through the Senate a bill, or perhaps two bills, being restric 
 five of di^ ing operations, and about the time they reached the House, 
 as is the case here with the present bill, the people in Tarpon Springs 
 becoming alarmed sent representatives here, who went before tlie 
 Committee on the Merchant Marine and Fisheries, where they were 
 accorded quite an extended hearing, with the result that a bill was 
 prepared as a compromise measure, introduced in the House, and 
 passed, being the act to which I ha-\ e already referred. At the time, 
 as I happen to know — because I was, perhaps, as much interested 
 and had as much to do with the passage of that compromise measure 
 as anyone else — it was intended largely to be an experimental 
 measure; no one could precisely tell what its effect would be on the 
 industry, but it was known and understood that it could be altered 
 or repealed at any time. Information as to the spawning season 
 was not available, but a closed season was nevertheless provided. 
 That 50- foot proposition was for the benefit of the hookers who 
 could not operate below 50 feet, so that under that law they can 
 gather sponges at any time of the year, but the divers are co-^ fined 
 to the period between the dates just mentioned. 
 
 Now, it seems that some considerable time elapsed before any serious 
 effort was made to enforce the law. but finally the Government had 
 some parties arrested for alleged violations of the law, but the case 
 dragged along for some time, finally reaching the Supreme Court, 
 where a decision was rendered the early part of this year. That deci- 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 5 
 
 sion sustained the constitutionality of the hiw which had been 
 attacked. 
 
 The Chairman. In what respect was the constitutionality of the 
 law challenged ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. It was challenged on the assumption that the terms 
 of the bill embraced State waters and was, therefore, repugnant to 
 the (Constitution of the United States, the idea being that Congress 
 had no authority to prohibit internal commerce between the States 
 dealing in the products of those States. I thought I had a copy of 
 that decision with me, but I find I have not. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Here is a copy of the decision [handing the same to 
 Mr. Sparkman]. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Well, I will not read it, although it is not very 
 lengthy. The Supreme Court held that while it might be construed 
 as embracing State waters, it was easil}" susceptible of a construction 
 that it did not embrace such waters, and under a well-known canon 
 of construction, viz, that where two interpretations can be placed 
 upon a statute that construction will be adopted which will uphold 
 the law, and this being possible in that case, the Supreme Court held 
 that the law was constitutional. After this decision was rendered 
 there was, as I am informed, no serious effort made to enforce the law 
 until two or three weeks ago. 
 
 Mr. Burke. Will you give us a citation to that decision? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. The decision was rendered February 19, 1912, in 
 the case of the Ahhy Dodge, A. Kalimeris, claimant, appellant, v. The 
 United States. 
 
 Mr. Burke. In what is it reported ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. This ]iam])hlet, you know, does not give the vol- 
 ume, but it was decided February 19, 1912. 
 
 The Chairman. I think it is 226 United States. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. But I take it that decision cuts no figure in this 
 investigation. 
 
 The Chairman. This bUl embraces that. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. It was not necessary to introckice a bill to alter the 
 law in that regard, because the Supreme Court having sustained the 
 constitutionality of the act there was no necessity for changing it in 
 that particular to meet constitutional rccpiirements, although it 
 might be necessary if there should be further litigation or some ques- 
 tion should be raised as to the construction of the statute; that is, as to 
 what it actually means. But so far as that particular constitutional 
 question is concerned, there is no necessity for legislation. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. I notice there seems to be a difference. The law of 
 1906 says nothing about excluding waters of the United States, while 
 the bill you have here has some language of that kind. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. That was an amendment which was made after 
 the bill was introduced, I believe, and was inserted in the Senate and 
 is a committee amendment, very likely. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. But not necessitated by the decision? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I do not think there is any necessity for it in so far 
 as any constitutional question is concerned, nor have I ascertained 
 just why this legislation was desired. I asked Senator Fletcher as to 
 the agitation that prompted the introduction and passage of the bill 
 through the Senate, and he told me, as I understood, that the Bureau 
 of Fisheries had gotten behind it and seemed to want it. Dr. Moore, 
 
6 EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OR GATCHHsTG OF SPONGES. 
 
 perhaps, knows all about that; I do not, except as I was informed by 
 Senator Fletcher. I thmk on the very day the bill passed I received 
 a telegram from some of the people in Tarpon Springs— Mr. Cheyney 
 was one who wired me — asking me to take some action in the matter. 
 Mr. Cheyney came immediately with Mr. Meindanis, who, being a 
 Greek himself, represents a great many of those Greek divers there, 
 or perhaps I should say Gre?k boats, operating in the Gulf waters. 
 Now I have, Mr. Chairman, quite a number of telegrams here, sent 
 from Tarpon Springs, Cedar Keys, Clearwater, and Tampa, favoring 
 a total repeal of the present law. The senders not only oppose the 
 enactment into law of the Senate bill, but favor a total repeal of the 
 closed-season law, leaving the conditions as they were before the 
 passage of the act of 1906. 
 
 Personally I can see no serious objection to the legislation they 
 propose. It was said at the time of the former hearing before this 
 committee that there was great danger of the sponge industry being 
 destroyed or very considerably crippled by these divers; that they 
 gathered them in such great quantities that the supply would soon 
 be exhausted; and, further, that the divers, by treading upon the 
 smaller ones, would destroy a great many sponges, so there would 
 be none left to take the place of those gathered. But I am informed 
 by these gentlemen that neither one of these results follow the 
 diving operations. They, for instance, say that while more sponges 
 are being gathered than before the passage of the law, there seems to 
 be no appreciable diminution of the supply. Furthermore, that the 
 diving operations seem, in some instances, to better conditions; that 
 by treading upon and scattering them the number is increased; that 
 if you break one of them into several pieces, the broken })arts will 
 attach tliemselves to rocks or anything to which they can cling, and 
 thus attached will grow and produce marketable sponges. It may be 
 a little paradoxical that the destruction of one will produce many, 
 but it seems it is true in this case. 
 
 These gentlemen, however, can tell you more about that than I 
 can. Mr. Cheyney is the greatest sponge oj)erator in Florida. And 
 Mr. Meindanis is thoroughly familiar with the industry. I will say 
 for him that he is a highly ecKicated gentleman, and is thoroughly 
 familiar with conditions and everything connected with the s])onge 
 industry ofl" the Florida coast. These gentlemen can tell you all 
 about the business, and certainly Dr. Moore can. I am told that he 
 is the greatest sponge expert in this country, which is equivalent to 
 saying he is the greatest in the world. 
 
 I have, as I said a moment ago, a great many telegrams and letters 
 and in addition three petitions numerously signed by the people of 
 Tarpon Springs; I do not know whether they are signed by everybody 
 there or not, as it is quite a large town, but certainly they are very 
 numerously signed. These petitions ask a total repeal of the act of 
 1900, and the placing of no restrictions ^rhatever on the gathering of 
 sponges. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand they oppose the enactment of 
 Senate bill 0385 ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Yes; they do not want it enacted into law; they 
 do not want any legislation on the subject, except repeal of the old 
 law. 
 
EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OE CATCHING OF SPONGES. 7 
 
 I thiiik, however, that it will be well to enact some legislation on 
 the subject of a restrictive nature, such as I am going to suggest 
 presently. A gentleinan, Mr. K. I. McKay, a prominent lawyer 
 of Tampa, wlio represents, as he writes me, nearly all of the sponge 
 industry in Tarpon Springs, seems to favor some restrictive legisla- 
 tion. He writes me an interestmg and instructive letter which I 
 will file with the committee without reading. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you desire it to go in the record ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Yes, sir; and I desire all these telegrams also to go 
 into the record. Among these telegrams is one as before stated from 
 Clearwater, the county seat of Pmellas County, on the Gulf coast, 
 and about 15 miles south of Tarpon Springs; also one from the 
 president of the Board of Trade of Cedar Keys, which is north of 
 Tarpon Springs, and in the county of Levy, asking a repeal of the 
 law. Quite a number of the business men of Tampa are likewise 
 favorable to the repeal of this old law, but I have one telegram oppos- 
 ing it received this morning just before coming here. It is from the 
 board of governors of Tampa Board of Trade. This board of trade 
 is a very large body, the largest perhaps in the State, and composed of 
 several hundred members. I wish this telegram also to go in the 
 record. The board of governors seem to base their opposition to a 
 repeal of the law on the ground that in their judgment a closed 
 season is necessary to protect the industry, but they give no facts. 
 Likely I will receive these later from the secretary. 
 
 I would now like to have Mr. Cheyney given an opportunity to 
 furnish the committee with the information that I am unable to give 
 it, because he is thoroughly posted and knows all the details of the 
 industry. He is, I believe, in favor of repealing the old law and 
 opposed to the enactment of any other restrictive legislation except 
 such as would limit the size of the sj)onges gathered, and in this, 
 as at present advised, I concur. I think it would be a good idea to 
 restrict the sizes to those larger than 5 inches in diameter. I believe 
 that would fully protect the sponge grounds and that it is the only 
 effective course consistent with the life of the industry so far as it is 
 carried on by diving. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. In other words, your idea is to limit the size of the 
 sponges to be taken and thereby prevent the destruction of the 
 whole industry ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Yes, sir; I think that would be the case. I do not 
 see any use in having a closed season any more than is furnished by 
 nature. The territory over which they gather these sponges is 
 immense. Mr. Meindanis has a chart which will show the sponge 
 field so far as they have discovered it, and the reason they have not 
 discovered more is likely because they can not operate the deeper 
 waters of the Gulf; But it extends from a place near the mouth 
 of Tampa Ba}^ clear up to and beyond St. Marks, even as far as 
 Carrabelle. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. How long does it take the average sponge to reach 
 a size of 5 inches ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Dr. Moore is quite well posted as to that and I think 
 can inform the committee better than I can : but I see in his work he 
 states it to be about four or six years. Which was it. Doctor? 
 
 Dr. Moore. About four years to reach an average size of about 6 
 inches ; but I think that is an underestimate. I think they grow more 
 
8 BEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 rapidly than that. That statement was made very conservatively 
 with the point in view of lending no undue encouragement to persons 
 who wished to take up sponge culture, and that statement was very 
 conservatively made for that reason. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I gathered that from your work. The doctor has 
 written a very interesting book on sponges, and I found the statement 
 I made a moment ago in this work; but, as he says, that is perhaps a 
 conservative statement. 
 
 Dr. Moore. We have found in one case that a sponge grown from 
 a cutting the size of an egg developed in four years to a diameter of 
 about li^ inches; but that was an unusual rate of growth. Ordina- 
 rily in that time they would grow to a diameter of between 6 and 8 
 inches, and possibly 9 inches in some cases. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. If you gentlemen will take the bill, which is before 
 you, I will show you just what I was going to suggest by way of amend- 
 ment. On page 1, line 8, after the word "sponges" strike out the 
 balancM^ of the line and lines 9 and 10 and, on page 2, lines 1, 2, 3, 4, 
 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and also 11, down to the word "catch." 
 
 The Chairman. Let me understand you. On page 2 strike out 
 lines 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Down to the word "catch," in line 11. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you mark a bill as you desire it amended. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Yes; I have one so marked here, and will hand it 
 to you. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. Your idea is to make it applicable the whole year? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Yes; the only restriction being as to the size of 
 the sponges gathered. Dr. Moore is here, and, of course, you want 
 to hear from him, and I do myself, but I suppose it would be better, 
 possibly, to hear from these other gentlemen first, so that he may 
 understand what they want, and with the permission of the chairman 
 I will introduce Mr. Cheyney. 
 
 The letters, telegrams, and petitions mentioned by Mr. Sparkman 
 follow: 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 27, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, , 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 Dear Mr. Sparkman: You are doubtless familiar with the provisions of chapter 
 3442 of the Statutes at Large, the same being act of June 20, 1906, purporting to pro- 
 hibit the taking of sponges from the waters of the Gulf of Mexico by means of diving 
 apparatus during the months from the 1st of May to the 1st of October of each year. 
 I understand that the passage of this act was brought about through the petition of 
 the sponging interests at Key West to Senator Taliaferro. The Key West spongers 
 had been accustomed to gathering sponges from the Gulf of Mexico by means of 
 grappling hooks, and of course the catches by this method were comparatively small 
 and prices were necessarily high. \Mien the Greeks invade d Tarpon Springs with 
 their diving equipment and commenced gathering sponges in large quantities from 
 the deep waters of the Gulf, the market for a time became somewhat flooded and 
 prices dropped very largely, and with the idea of putting a stop to this apparent 
 danger of overproduction the Key West sponging interests sought to have Senator 
 Taliaferro introduce a bill prohibiting the bringing into the United States of any 
 sponges taken from the waters of the Gulf of Mexico or Straits of Florida by means 
 of diving apparatus. Representatives of the sponge divers at Tarpon Springs went 
 to Washington to confer with Senator Taliaferro, and he told them he had given the 
 pledge to introduce and support such a bill and did not very well see how he could 
 avoid kee])ing his promise. After many conferences the bill which was finally enacted 
 was drafted as a compromise measure", the intention being to thereby provide that 
 no H])onges taken by the diving method during the months of May, June', July, August, 
 and September should be brought into the United States. 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKINCx OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 9 
 
 The impression seemed to prevail amongst the spongers engaged in fishing by the 
 diving method that the Government did not intend to enforce this law, and the 
 impression also prevailed quite generally amongst the members of the bar that the 
 act was unconstitutional, and I am free to confess that I was firmly, of the opinion 
 that the act was unconstitutional for reasons which appear to me very clear. How- 
 ever, a test case was made and carried to the Supreme Court, which, during January 
 of this year, held the act to be constitutional, so that question is no longer open, 
 although questions bearing upon the construction of the act may still be raised. 
 
 During the last few days the Government has shown an unexpected activity in the 
 enforcement of this law and has seized practically all of the vessels engaged in the 
 sponge-diving industry at Tarpon Springs under libels filed by the district attorney 
 praying for the imj)osition of penalties and forfeiture of the vessels and their cargoes, 
 and the masters have also been arre-ted under the criminal section of the act. I have 
 been engaged by the owners of nearly all of the vessels to represent them, and while I 
 do not feel greatly concerned about the outcome of the suits which have been insti- 
 tuted, yet it is extremely unsatisfactory for an industry such as this to be operating 
 even apparently in violation of law. Several days ago the Board of Trade of Tarpon 
 Springs held a mass meeting, with the result that Mr. John K. Cheyney. with whom 
 you are, of course, well acquainted, sent several telegrams to the Florida delegation at 
 Wa^^hington, and I understand that Senator Fletcher has introduced a bill amending 
 the act of 1906, and that the same has passed the Senate, but my information was 
 gathered from newspapers, of course, and these have not purported to give the text of 
 Senator Fletcher's bill, so I do not know just what provisions are contained therein. 
 This morning I telegraphed you as follows: 
 
 "Government has commenced enforcing act June twentieth, nineteen six, relating to 
 closed season, sponge diving. Gulf Mexico. Law as now framed serves no purpose 
 except to seriously cripple industry producing for this district upwards of six hundred 
 thoueand dollars annually. Understand Senator Fletcher has introduced bill amend- 
 ing law and same has passed Senate. It is urgent that some relief be given at once, but 
 we would not care to indorse bill unless we know terms of same and find it gives ade- 
 quate relief. Please have copy proposed bill mailed me to-day and see letter to you in 
 to-night's mail." 
 
 I trust it will not put you to too much trouble to send me by to-night's mail a copy of 
 the bill introduced by Senator Fletcher. If you send it, I should receive it in Monday 
 morning's mail and can then wire you if it is satisfactory, and if not, can wire you 
 suggesting the objectionable features. 
 
 I am told by all the people engaged in this industry that there is no danger of the 
 supply of sponges in the Gulf becoming exhausted or even substantially depleted by 
 the continuance of the diving fisheries; in fact, I am assured by the divers who actually 
 gather the sponges that the cutting of the bunches from the coral reefs and rocks on the 
 bottom where they grow is like cultivating a field and that they frequently tear or cut 
 loose a bunch of sponge from the bottom and go back in six or eight months and find 
 the bed fully grown up with sponge ■? of commercial size and in quantitie; six or eight 
 times as great as the original bed. They account for this increa=ie of production by the 
 fact that when a sponge is cut from its original footing there is a secretion discharged 
 which contains the propagating germ, and this secretion spreads over the ground and 
 rocks and of cour-e produces a large number of young sponge <, which grow rapidly to 
 commercial size. 
 
 I nm not prepared to vouch entirely for the correctness of this information, except 
 that it is given me by those who should be in position to know, but these claims can 
 be verified ])y proper investigation. 
 
 As you doubtless know, there are at Tarpon S])rings at the present time between 
 two and three thousand Greeks who are engaged in carrying on the sponging industry 
 by means of diving, and they gather from the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico and bring 
 into Tarpon Springs sponges which sell in the open market at that place annually for 
 upward of .$600,000, so the industry is obviously of no little commercial importance 
 to this part of the country. As stated in my telegram of this morning, the strict 
 enforcement of the present statute would seriously cripple the business, because the 
 months of May, June, and July, on account of weather conditions, are amongst the 
 very best for the business, and, in addition, if the sponge boats are prohibited from 
 following their business during these months, the large number of people employed 
 in the industry will remain idle and the vessels, involving an expense of many thou- 
 sands of dollars, will be tied up, and it is a well-known fact that a vessel which is tied 
 up, even temporarily, deteriorates very rapidly in value. 
 
 It is generally believed by the people who are directly affected by the present action 
 of the Government that the activity in the prosecution of these cases has bsen insti- 
 gated by a large sponge brokerage firm in New York, which is reputed to have bought 
 something over 50 per cent of the sponges that have been bought in the market this 
 
10 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 year, and that they are trying to stop the production in order to be able to control the 
 market and dispose of the stock they have on hand at an advanced price. Whether 
 this is true or not, I am not prepared to say, but there are several things that have come 
 to my knowledge which tend to verify the suspicion; but the truth of the suspicion 
 is, for the present piu-poses, not of a great deal of importance, because it is our idea to 
 get relief by way of amendment of the present law rather than to make attacks upon 
 individuals. These people tell me that they Avill have no objection to a law prohibit- 
 ing them froaTi fishing with diving apparatus during the months of August and Septem- 
 ber, if the Government is desirous of having a closed season in the sponge fisheries, 
 because they say the weather conditions during these months do not permit of the 
 successful prosecution of the business, and as there seems to be no particular season 
 during which the sponge requires especial protection, I can not see that there is any 
 good reason why the closed season should not be fixed during the months when the 
 fishing is not profitable. 
 
 From the newspaper accounts there is a prospect of an early adjournment of Con- 
 gress, so, of course, we do not know if it would be possible to secure the passage of a 
 satisfactory law at this session, but I have explained to my people that it will be 
 better to let the law remain as it is until the next session of Congress than to have an 
 unsatisfactory hill passed at this session and then have to make a fight at the next 
 session for a further amendment, and I assume you will agree with me on this propo- 
 sition, but I will appreciate it very much if you will indicate to me your view with 
 reference to the probability of securing the enactment of a suitable law in the event 
 we find serious objection to the bill as introduced by Senator Fletcher. 
 
 Thanking you in advance for the assistance I know you will give us in this matter, 
 and with kindest regards, I am. 
 
 Yours, very truly, K. I. McKay. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman. M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 Dear Sir: A trial of several years has proven the enforced closed season for sponging 
 by the diving process to be very oVijectionable. 
 
 First. Because it does not stop the taking, but simply prohibits sponges from being 
 landed in this country, thereby depriving us of our rightful commerce. 
 
 Second. We believe the weather conditions will naturally protect the sponge beds, 
 because sponge fishermen can only operate in calm weather and moderately clear 
 water. 
 
 Third. The present law makes it unprofitable for the sponge o])erators, who are 
 forced to lay up for five months each year hundreds of vessels and diving apparatus, 
 all of which depreciates in value as rapidly when idle as when in use, and annually 
 throws approximately 2,500 men out of employment during that time and causing 
 heavy expense, to reassemble. 
 
 I summarize the law in effect as depriving this community to engage free and un- 
 trammeled in an industry on a profitable basis, one that brings to us a yearly product 
 valued at nearly a million dollars per annum. These sponges are taken from the 
 waters of the Gulf of Mexico by the diving process. No other known method can secure 
 them at a depth Avliere the best sponges are found. We want the law repealed. A 
 petition is being largely signed here ,in fact, unanimously, "praying for the early 
 repeal of the law making a closed season for landing and selling at any port or place 
 in the United States any sponges caught by the diving process." We want no law 
 at all governing or relating to the sponge lousiness except perhaps one in conjunction 
 and similar to the State law as to minimum size of sponges taken. 
 
 So far as I can learn the sponge l^uyers are the only ones interested or want a closed 
 season, therefore supplying them their only chance to work a corner on the market. 
 
 We want to he allowed to gather sponges whenever the weather will permit. Is 
 there any good reasin why we should not do so? We are unanimous, I believe, in 
 our prayer to repeal this law. 
 
 Thanking you for your prompt attention to this matter, I am. 
 
 Yours, very truly, G. E. Noblit. • 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C.: 
 People interested in sponge industry unanimously oppose Senate bill 6385 in so far 
 as it provides for closed season. They claim no closed season necessary, because 
 weather conditions invariably prevent fishing more than half days each month. If 
 
KEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 11 
 
 not possible to pass bill this session eliminating closed-season feature, desire old law 
 remain until next session, when subject can he presented thoroughly with data to 
 support contention. All approve legislation prohibiting taking sponges less than 5 
 inches diameter. Believe Mr. Cheyney's ideas are same as the rest parties interested. 
 
 K. I. McKay. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa, transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs, we hereby urge you to support a bill at this 
 session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sj^onge law. 
 
 Consolidated Grocery Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman. M. C., 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa, transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs, we hereby urge you to support a bill at 
 this session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Armour & Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa, transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs, we hereby urge you to support a bill at 
 this session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 The Bentley Gray Dry Goods Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912.. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs we hereby urge j^ou to support a bill at 
 this session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 W. B. Wit Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs we hereby urge you to support a bill at this 
 session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Chas. H. Moorhouse. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa transacting business with the people engaged in 
 the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs we hereby urge you to support a bill at this 
 session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Crenshaw Bros. & Saffold. 
 
12 EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa transacting business with the people engaged in 
 the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs we hereby urge you to support a bill at this 
 session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Peninsular Naval Stores Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa, transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs, we hereby urge you to support a bill at 
 this session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Avery & Owen Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa, transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs, we hereby urge you to support a bill at 
 this session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Tampa Hardware Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa transacting business with the people engaged in 
 the sponge industry at Tarpon Springs we hereby urge you to support a bill at this 
 session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 C. W. Greene Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 As a wholesale merchant in Tampa transacting business with the people engaged 
 in the sponge industry at Tarp(Mi Springs we hereby urge you to support a bill at 
 this session which will eliminate the closed-season feature of the present sponge law. 
 
 Knight & Wall Co. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington. D. C: 
 Business friends of ours at Tarpon are very anxious to have repealed the laws now 
 enforced against sponging during certain months of the year. We will highly appre- 
 ciate your helping them out in this matter. We believe that the present laws are 
 detrimental to the interest of Tarpon and benefit no one. 
 
 Knight & Wall. 
 
 Cedar Key, Fla., July 31, 1912. 
 S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 Our board of trade want^ you to support petition sent from Tarpon Springs to change 
 the sponging law so that divers can work entire year. 
 
 W. R. Hodges, 
 President Cedar Key Board of Trade. 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 13 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 Congressman S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 The act closing the sponging season from May to October, now being enforced, will 
 prove very disastrous to the town and surrounding country. Serious results are 
 already being experienced: therefore we, with the citizens here, beg you to use your 
 best efforts to have this law repealed at this session of (Jongress. 
 
 Sponge Exchange Bank. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July SO, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 The town council, at special meeting, adopted resolutions requesting you gentle- 
 men to repeal law closing sponging season. Last two years have proved that nature 
 takes care of the season and there is no longer any need for a closed season. Entire 
 population, American and Greek, are unanimous in this request. 
 
 Town Council. 
 
 H. B. Webster, President. 
 
 W. F. Ferguson. 
 
 W. T. Roberts. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Congressman S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washing ion, D. C: 
 Dear Sir: We believe it is in your power to change or get any bill through Congress 
 that you want to, and it is our sincere desire to have the closed-season clause stricken 
 from the sponge bill now pending before your body and allow the diving for sponges 
 all the year. 
 
 L. D. Vinson, 
 County Commissioner, Pinellas County. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 31, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 The Greek American Bank of this city joins in the request for a repeal of the law 
 that will give us an open sponging season all the year round . 
 
 Ernest Meres, 
 President Greek American Bank. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., August 2, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, M. C, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 In my opinion the law should be repealed, and give Tarpon Springs an open sponge 
 season all the year. The people are unanimous in this request. I join with them, 
 asking it as a personal favor. 
 
 Saml. E. Hope. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 Congressman S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 The prosperity of our city depends upon the sponge industry. It is the unanimous 
 opinion of the citizens of Tarpon Springs that the act closing the sponging season 
 should be repealed immediately to relieve the straitened circumstances of our 
 citizens. Do your utmost to put the repeal through at this session of Congress. 
 
 J. F. COGAN, 
 
 Mayor of Tarpon Springs, Fla. 
 
14 EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Clearwater, Fla., July 30, 1912. 
 Congressman Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C: 
 Work to repeal closed-season clause in sponging act, and oblige. 
 
 C. S. BiNICKER, 
 
 Chas. H. Evans, 
 
 J. A. Matchett, 
 
 H. W. BiviNS, 
 
 W. C. Black, 
 
 Roy V. Sellers, 
 
 Leroy Brandon, 
 
 A. E. Sloan, County Judge, 
 
 Citizens of Clearwater, Fla. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 31, 1912. 
 Hon. S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 House of Representatives, Washington, D. C: 
 This resolution was passed unanimously at a meeting of the board of governors held 
 this afternoon: 
 
 "Resolved, Thai; the president and the secretary of the Tampa Board of Trade be 
 instructed to wire our Representatives in the House and Senate to oppose the repeal 
 of the law providing for the protection of the sponge industry, as such repeal would 
 tend to the destruction of one of che remaining valuable resources of the country." 
 
 W. B. Powell, Secretary. 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 28, 1912. 
 To Senator Duncan U. Fletcher and Congressman S. M. Sparkman, our National 
 Representatives. 
 
 Gentlemen: Your petitioners represent unto you that the sponging season that has 
 just been closed, under the law as it now stands upon the statute books of the Govern- 
 ment, is working a hardship upon our entire community, throwing from between 1,500 
 to 2,000 men out of employment, and causing great financial loss and unrest of all 
 concerned in this industry. 
 
 Therefore, we, your petitioners, who are citizens and residents of the town of Tarpon 
 Springs, Fla., and its vicinity, and who are interested directly and indirectly in the 
 sponge industry, pray that you gentlemen will use your best endeavor to procure a 
 repeal of the "closing" section of the act that is now being rigidly enforced in our 
 midst, and if possible this repeal be secured at this session of Congress. 
 
 And your petitioners will ever pray. 
 
 W. DiAMANDIS 
 
 (And 97 others). 
 
 Tarpon SprincxS, Fla., July 28, 1912. 
 To Senator Duncan U. Fletcher and Congressman S. M. Sparkman, our National Repre- 
 sentatives. % 
 
 Gentlemen: Your petitioners represent unto you that the sponging season that has 
 just been closed, under the law as it now stands upon the statute books of the Govern- 
 ment, is working a hardship upon our entire community, tlii'owing from between 
 1,500 to 2,000 men out of employment and causing great financial loss and unrest 
 of all concerned in this industry. 
 
 Therefore, we, your petitioners, who are citizens, and residents of the town of 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., and its vicinity, and who are interested directly and indirectly 
 in the sponge industry, pray that you gentlemen will use yoxn- best endeavor to pro- 
 cure a repeal of the "closing" section of the act that is now being rigidly enforced in 
 our midst, and if possible this repeal be secured at this session of Congress. 
 And your petitiouiers will ever pray. 
 
 G. M. Munnier 
 
 (And 94 others). 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 15 
 
 Tarpon Springs, Fla., July 28, 1912. 
 To Senator Duncan U. Fletcher and Congressman S. M. Sparkman, our National Rep- 
 resentatives. 
 
 Gentlemen: Your petitioners represent unto you that the sponging sef son that has 
 just been closed, under the law as it now stands upon the statute books of the Govern- 
 ment, is working a hardship upon our entire community, throwing from between 1,500 
 to 2,000 men out of emplo}ment and causing great financial loss and unrest of all 
 concerned in this industry. 
 
 Therefore we, your petitioners, who are citizens and residents of the town of Tarpon 
 Springs, Fla., and its vicinity, and who are interested directly and indirectly in the 
 sponge industry, pray that you gentlemen will use your best endeavor to procure 
 a repeal of the "closing" section of the act that is now being rigidly enforced in our 
 midst, and, if possible, this repeal be secured at this session of Congress. 
 And your petitioners will ever pray. 
 
 J. R. Durrance; Harry C. Shaw; Sam Jones; G. Woblit; J. M. Baggett; 
 Jno. J. Hedrick, jr.; Kendall Cartaing; R. McCrary; L. Forsythe; 
 Nicholas Pautelis; R. V. Goodwin; C. L. Knowles; C. Catsiread; Rev. 
 Chr. y Angelojocolo; J. R. West, jr.; W. F. Ferguson; Theodore J. 
 Petzoid; D. T. Youngblood; J. F. Cogan; A. D. Smith, jr.; E. B. 
 Liles; Ernest Meres; J. R. Drane; J. F. Gillett; R. T. Jones; R. W. 
 Pinholster; G. N. Creteko; W. H. Rouse; G. C. White; E. A. Pierce; 
 Chas. H. Lee; Harry Bell; Jim Johnson; J. E. Jackson; S. B. Young- 
 blood; C. H. Beckett; A. G. Jones; J. M. Cremer; N. B. Kunsch; 
 W. D.Grable; B. J. Knawles; J. E. Douglass; D. Alinudmstrato; I. J. 
 Belcher; W. T. Sawyer; G. L. Cowart; Alfred Allen; Charles Bussels; 
 J. H. Smith; T. W. Jones; J. N. Craig; George T. Pinder; Ralph 
 Gaskell; W. G. Adderley; A. P. Beckett; C. M. Hill; Geo. N. Truax; 
 R. C. Hill; T. E. Graham; I. W. Kramer; C. H. Lutz; J. A. Lutz; 
 J. W. Cooper, jr.; Earl E. Hogue; J. S. McNeill; J. C. Beekman; 
 Geo. A. Louders; Paul Cheyney; F. M. Wharton; W. W. K. Decker; 
 Duncan Morrison; M. Cowart; Cestos Arvenistis; L. D. Vinson; H. J. 
 Smith; Harry McCreary; W. M. Smith; B. W. Medearis; N. A. Van 
 Winkle; W. D. Driver;" ('. H. Driver; Casey Driver; Malcolm N. Hill; 
 Jno. T. Hill; George Gage;- A. E. Smith; M. K. Gourley; W. R. Row- 
 land; Robert Louis Konecke. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 To Senator Duncan U. Fletcher and Congressman S. M. Sparkman. Washington, D. C. 
 
 Gentlemen: The citizens of Tarpon Springs. Fla., and vicinity, having petitioned 
 you to pass, if possible, at this session of Congress, a bill repealing the "closed season'' 
 section of the act that is now in force regulating the diving for sponge, your under- 
 signed petitioners of the city of Tampa, being directly and indirectly interested 
 in this industry, and the welfare of Tarpon Springs, respectfully request that you 
 gentlemen, as our representatives in Congress, will, if possible, pass a repealing act 
 at this session of Congress, to go into effect immediately. 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 J. R. Durrance, secretary Tarpon Springs Board-of Trade: Perry G. Wall; 
 S. N. Honaker; C. A. Bashford: Chas. E. Ball: Consolidated Grocery 
 Co., W. A. Fallehn, vice president; W. B. Grav^ Contes Plumbing 
 Supply Co., by E. W. Contes: Thos. W. Cowart: B. R. Hiiison: J. E. 
 Wall; F. M. Cooper, jr.; G. T. Henderson. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 To Senator Duncan U. Fletcher and Congressman S. M. Sparkman, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 Gentlemen: The citizens of Tarpon Springs and vicinity, having petitioned you 
 to pass, if posssible, at this session of Congress, a bill repealing the "closed season" 
 section of the act that is now in force regulating the diving for .sponge, your under- 
 signed petitioners of the city of Tampa, being directly and indirectly interested in 
 
16 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 this industry and the welfare of Tarpon Springs, respectfully request that you gen- 
 tlemen, as our Representatives in Congress, will, if possible, pass a repealing act at this 
 session of Congress, to go into effect immediately. 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 J. R. Durrance, secretary Tarpon Springs Board of Trade; Tampa & 
 Tarpon Springs Land Co., by D. F. Conaley, president; Owners Realty 
 <'o., by Frank L. Cooper, sales manager; Thrower Bros., per L. L. 
 Thrower; The Wall Realty & Investment Co., by E. Walters, man- 
 ager; Wier Realty Co., by Will M. P^am; Swann & Holtsinger Co., by 
 Eugene Holtsinger, general manager; Davis Mercantile Co., per Jno. E. 
 Hall; O'Neill & Stone; Leo G. Taylor; Sexton & Harris, per C. W. 
 Harris; Beckwith & Warren Co.; Macfarlane Investment Co., by Hugh 
 0. Macfarlane, treasurer. 
 
 Tampa, Fla., July 29, 1912. 
 To Senator Duncan U. Fletcher and Congressman S. M. Sparkman, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Gentlemen: The citizens of Tarpon Springs, Fla., and vicinity, ha\-ing petitioned 
 you to pass, if possible, at this session of Congress, a bill repealing the "closed sea,=ion" 
 section of the act that is now in force regulating the diving for sponge, your under- 
 signed petitioners of the city of Tampa, being directly and indirectly interested in 
 this industry and the welfare of Tarpon Springs, respectfully request that you gentle- 
 men, as our representatives in Congress, will, if possible, pass a repealing act at this 
 session of Congress to go into effect immediately. 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 J. R. Durrance, 
 Secretary Tarpon Springs Board of Trade. 
 Chas. H. Brown. 
 Jas. W. Booth. 
 Wm. Apellheim. 
 W. T. Roberts. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN K. CHEYNEY. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have no notes or 
 prepared address, and. m fact, I am hardly equal to any formal 
 address m any case. But I was sent here by our townspeople who 
 are interested in this industry both as operators, buyers of sponges, 
 and merchants — every one interested m the industry directly or 
 indirectly. At a mass meeting held just prior to my starting they 
 requested Mr. Meindanis and myself to come here and lay this propo- 
 sition before you, that the industry, according to our judgment, and 
 all of those who are engaged in it directly, does not require any 
 closed season to protect the growth of the sponges in the first place; 
 in the gecond place the closed season, in connection with natural 
 weather conditions, which make it impossible to work for many 
 months in the year, renders it impossible for those people to earn a 
 living, and therefore they can not go on these boats, because of the 
 weather conditions. These are facts that I am stating, gentlemen, 
 of course. In the six years' operation of these people there in this 
 diving process, which is the only matter under consideration — every- 
 thing else is open and free; there has never been any legislation on 
 any other process of gathering sponges — those people have not made 
 enough money out of their industry to pay for their boats. 
 
 Last winter they had almost a complete failure. For a period of 
 three or four months last year they were unable to do anything be- 
 cause of excessively windy weather but they made a trip in the spring 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 17 
 
 and early summer which fairly put tliem on their feet again; that is 
 they made up a part of their loss of the previous season. But if 
 they can not continue they will have to stop because they can not 
 recapitalize themselves to go out. These are commercial reasons 
 and I do not know w^hether that is what you want or not but being 
 a practical man they are the points that always appeal to me. 
 
 The Chairman. You say they can not recapitalize themselves ? 
 Why not ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Because the difhculty of getting the money neces- 
 sary to operate the boats without they can assure those people there 
 from whom they borrow^ the money the local banks that they can 
 operate them successfully. 
 
 The Chairman. About how^ much of a;n investment does it involve ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. The trip of one diving vessel requires an advance 
 of about S2 000 for a two months' trip ; that is to say they use about 
 15 men, 6 of wdiom are divers. Those divers remain in the water 
 probably from 5 to 10 minutes at a time because the depth of the 
 water in which they are working will not permit them to staiul the 
 pressure any longer. Those divers really get the big end of it, but 
 they are the only people who make it possible for the rest to engage 
 in the business. And they require an advance in fact all of them do. 
 It is the old system of bounties. Five hundred dollars for provisions 
 and $1,500 in cash is required to send out one of those boats. Now, 
 there are 60 of those vessels at the outside I think but about only 
 50 in operation now. 
 
 The Chairman. What is their tonnage? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. You understand that the actual operation of diving 
 is done from a small w^orking boat; but the schooner, wdiich is the 
 storage and living boat, averages about 22, 24, or 26 tons and up to 
 30 tons. There are one or two boats, though, of 40 tons. How^ever, 
 they are small boats, drawing from 3 to 5 feet of water, on account of 
 the shallow water on the coast. 
 
 Now, gentlemen, the point that interests us and the main reason for 
 our coming here is that they want some relief. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. It seems to me that the important question with refer- 
 ence to legislation on this subject is. Will there be any danger of 
 destroying the industry if there are no restrictions put on it, or will the 
 diving industry ultimately destroy the sponge field if there are no 
 restrictions ? In other words, are these restrictions necessary to pre- 
 serve the sponge field, or are they onty for the purpose of helping 
 somebody who is following a more crude method of procedure ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. We do not feel that this closed season is necessary 
 for the preservation of the industry. No one has the question nearer 
 to heart than I have, personally, and Dr. Moore will tell you that I 
 was here six years ago, interested in this legislation, but only here 
 because my presence w^as necessary to prevent the enactment of leg- 
 islation which would have absolutely prohibited diving at any time 
 on the coast. Mr. Sparkman has explained that fully to you, and I 
 will not say any more about it, but wdll be glad to explain any ques- 
 tions which might occur to your minds. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I would like, as I know something about this 
 matter, to ask Mr. Cheyney a few questions. Why do you advance 
 the opinion that permission to operate the year around would not 
 injure the industry or not have a tendency to destroy the supply ? 
 
 55596—12 2 
 
18 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Because of our experience in the prosecution of the 
 industry for this length of time. In the first place, we have not 
 reduced the supply, or, in other words, we do not know as to that, but 
 we have not reduced the output except in this last year, when itwas 
 reduced by, perhaps, $600,000, owning to this particularly unfavorable 
 season. Prior to that we had an output valued at variously from 
 $600,000 to $700,000 a year. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Does your investigation show that in the Mediter- 
 ranean, where I suppose this diving process has been followed a great 
 deal longer than in our waters, there is any diminution of the crop of 
 sponges ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Not the output. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. How about the grounds ? Do they find the supply of 
 sponges comparatively just what it has always been there, or is there 
 an exhaustion ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I could not speak ver}^ authoritatively regarding 
 the Mediterranean grounds, because the only knowledge I have of 
 those grounds is through the doctor's book and information that is 
 given to us through reports of that character. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Is this industry owned by American citizens ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No. Do you mean, when you speak of the industry, 
 the vessels ? 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. There are two branches of the industry, the pro- 
 ducing portion of it and the marketing portion of it. The producing 
 portion, which is the operation of the vessels, is entirely in the hands 
 of our Greek citizens, because they are employing Greek labor. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Are they Greek citizens of the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Many of them. We have quite a large voting pop- 
 ulation of Greeks there. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. What proportion of them would you think were 
 American citizens ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Well, I would judge there were not more than 20 
 per cent of them citizens of the United States at the present time. 
 But few of them have been here long enough to acquire their rights, 
 but I think they are taking out their citizenship papers as rapidly as 
 they can. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. May I ask you where these diiferent boats are owned 
 along the coast ? Are they owned at Clearwater and Tarpon Springs ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. They are all owned at Tarpon Springs. The other 
 places that feel an interest in that industry are interested through 
 their business associations with Tarpon Springs. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. Do the sponge boats themselves extend as far down 
 as Bradentown and below there ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No; we regard the sponge grounds that are under 
 discussion at the present time — because they are the only sponge 
 grounds on which the divers are working — as commencing at about 
 the mouth of Tampa Bay and that they extend from there. They 
 extend far offshore and away to the northwestward as far as Carra- 
 belle, which is near Apalachicola. And I would like to make a point 
 right here, because it occurs to me in connection with the question 
 you ask(^d me a while ago. One of our reasons for believing that this 
 industry can not be destroyed by the continuoue operation of these 
 divers is that they are all the time finding and developing new fields. 
 
REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 19 
 
 New grounds that we never dreamed of before are being discovered, 
 which are extending the old grounds farther offshore and farther to 
 the north and south. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Is that necessary in order to keep up the output ? 
 Mr. Cheyney. Well, that I do not know, but I do not think that 
 could be so, because they go out into these grounds and have nothing 
 to guide them except the compass, and they sail until they find a bar, 
 and in doing that they find grounds that have never been worked 
 before. And that was so during the last season. 1 think they opened 
 up an area of about a thousand square miles to the west that had never 
 been sponged before, and it was not known that sponges existed there. 
 Now, the strong point is that the operation of about 50 or 60 vessels 
 in such a vast area as that makes it unlikely that they will destroy the 
 industry, because while they are working in one place another place 
 would be recuperating. If it were held that the grounds can be 
 depleted by repeatedly working on them, I would think that ques- 
 tion might be alarming, but it certahily can not be held so, and Dr. 
 Moore in his book does not hold so. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Does the present industry work more than one- 
 fifth of the field each year ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. It does not work more than one-hundredth of the 
 field each year, certainly not of the 9,000 square miles that are known 
 and have been operated on. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Do I understand that they do not intend to work 
 the second year the field on which they have operated the first year ? 
 ]\'Ir. Cheyney. As a rule, they do not go back to the same general 
 locality, although there could be no doubt about their finding an 
 equal quantity of sponges there the next year, because there is no 
 way, in such a vast area, of determining where they were before. 
 The men who are on these boats are not mariners and have no instru- 
 ments with which to determine just where they were the year before. 
 As an illustration of that, a short time ago, and within the last couple 
 of months, there was a large schooner, on which there was a cargo 
 of three or four thousand dollars' worth of sponges, that went down 
 and her masts showed above the water, but they have never been 
 able to find that vessel since. They are sure her masts showed 
 above the water, and they put up buoys out there, and they have 
 gone out to try to find that vessel, but they can not find her. I 
 mention that to show the absolute impossibility of cleaning up cer- 
 tain areas consecutively. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. You say the masts of the vessel are showing? 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes. It was in water which was, perhaps, 30 or 40 
 feet deep. But they can not find the masts. 
 Mr. Stephens. I thought you said they were showing. 
 Mr. Cheyney. They were showing at the time the crew left the 
 vessel. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. And they have never been able to find the masts? 
 Mr. Stephens. I understand now; they were showing at the time 
 the crew left the vessel and are not sho\nng now ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes, sir; that is the idea ; they are not showing now. 
 Dr. Moore. They might be shomng if they could get to the grounds 
 to ascertain. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. When this law was passed, did you favor a closed 
 season ? 
 
20 KEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OE CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I did favor a closed season at that time. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. You have changed your mind now? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I have changed my mind. At that time it was 
 purely experimental. These divers had only recently come to the 
 countr}', and they came in great numbers. We even had to appeal 
 to the Department of Immigration to stop them in the New York 
 Harbor, because they were coming down in such vast numbers that 
 the industry could not handle them, could not house them, and could 
 not take care of them when they came. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I would like to say right there, in connection with 
 the question propounded to Mr. Cheyney, that there were two inter- 
 ests represented before the committee in 1906; the divers, represented 
 by Mr. S. C. Hope, of Tarpon Springs, and Mr. Cheyney here repre- 
 senting himself and the industry generally. The divers did not 
 want any closed season at all, and it was with a great deal of diffi- 
 culty that I could induce their representative to agree to the bill 
 even in the compromise form in which it was finally presented. 
 After returning to Tarpon Springs he wrote back to me asking that 
 the bill be changed so that there should be no closed season at all. 
 And I took his letter to the chairman of the committee, but the bill 
 had been reported, and he refused to alter it, stating that he thought 
 it ought to be passed and tested, and that if it did not work well it 
 could be changed or repealed afterwards. 
 
 The Chairman. Was not the issue then between those who fished 
 for sponges in the old way and the divers ? 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Yes; and I will say that those who represented the 
 old way of gathering sponges had withdrawn from the contest. They 
 seemed to be satisfied v/iih the closed-season provision, and since 
 then I understand they have left that particular field to the divers 
 and have gone back to Key West and contiguous waters. Is that 
 correct, Mr. Cheyney? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. That is correct. They are operating in their old 
 grounds, the Bay of Florida, as it is called, lying between Key West 
 and the coast, the mainland, there is quite a vast area of water, and 
 some years ago it was practically exhausted, but they are now finding 
 sponges there in greater numbers than they ever have for a number 
 of years. Last year they had a very good crop, and they are doing 
 all their work there; they do not come on to the divers' grounds at 
 all, and have not for two years past. 
 
 The Chairman. What is to hinder the divers from going and occu- 
 pying that ground and coming in conflict with them ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I presume there is nothing to hinder them, but the 
 diver finds his best and most valuable product in very deep water, 
 much deeper water than exists in that locality. The divers are now 
 working in from about 100 to 120 feet of water, and tliere is no such 
 depth of water irt that vicinity. As I say, the divers find the best 
 sponges, the sponges that bring them the highest prices, in the deepest 
 water in which they can work. And it seems to us down there that, 
 as these men continue to work out into deeper water and get the more 
 valuable product, that it can not but leave the shallow waters to 
 recuperate, if there has been any depletion. 
 
 The Chairman. These fishers by the old metliod were forced out of 
 that territory and back to Key West ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Tliey could not comj)ete with the diving methods 
 there and returned to their own grounds and are getting considerable 
 
REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 21 
 
 product, but in the aggregate it is not nearly as good nor per pound 
 as valuable. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. How does the commercial value of American sponges 
 compare with Mediterranean s))onges year by year ? 
 
 Mr. Cheney. I think Dr. Moore can answer that better than I can, 
 but I should judge one-half. 
 
 Dr. MooRE. About one-half of the Mediterranean bath or honey- 
 comb sponge. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. May I ask you another cpiestion about the commercial 
 end of the matter? How are these divers paid? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. They are working under a share system. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. Do they get so much percentage of the catch? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Wlien a cargo is sold it brings so much money; 
 from that total the cost of the provisions and the actual cost of oper- 
 ating is deducted; thereby each man pays his pro rata share of that. 
 Then the balance of it is divided into so many shares. On an average 
 there are 15 men ail told on a vessel, and there would be 36 shares, 
 and a diver w^ould get, perhaps, three shares, while an ordinary 
 workman would get but one share. Those proportions, of course, 
 vary, but I understand that is about the relative proportion. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. When a boat has been loaded with sponges, and it 
 goes into Tarpon Springs, w^liat happens ? What becomes of the 
 product then ; who buys it ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. The sponges are bought by merchants or buyers, 
 as we call them there. Most of them represent northern houses that 
 are engaged in selling sponges. 
 
 JVIr. Ayres. About how manv sponges does a boat produce in a 
 trip ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. The recent boats that came in averaged, I would say, 
 $4,000 per boat. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. But what I was trying to get at was the wholesale 
 price per sponge or per pound. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. The pound basis is used. The average price per 
 pound to-day. or the price paid during the past season, at the market 
 there was $4 for a wool sponge, which probably occupies 90 per cent 
 of the entire product, the others being of cheaper grades. But $4 
 would be a safe average paid during the past season. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. $4 per pound ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. In what condition? 
 
 Mr. C heyney. Cleaned. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Is that done at Tarpon Springs? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No; that is done by the fishers out on the boats. 
 I'hey are then tied on to strings, what we call bundles, 4 feet 10 inches 
 long, and the cargo is priced as containing so many bundles of wool, 
 so man}^ bundles of yellowy and so forth. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. Then "the boats bring the sponges to Tarpon Springs 
 practically ready for shipment ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No; ready for sale to the buyers. After a buyer 
 gets the sponges they are taken into a packing house, taken off the 
 strings, and clipped, as it is called, by using sheep shears, the rotten 
 portions broken off, the irregular portions, and gotten into shape for 
 sale, the basis of sale being the size of the sponges, and each size has 
 a varying price. "Wlien I said that $4 was the average price, that 
 
22 EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OE CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 means that the weight of that entire cargo, divided by pounds, would 
 be worth $4 per pound. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. How long does an average trip take? 
 
 ]\Ir. Cheyney. Most of their trips extend over eight weeks. If 
 they should by any chance have bad weather or very unfavorable 
 weather, they are compelled to come in earlier, and perhaps will not 
 have a full cargo, but it usually takes eight weeks for a trip. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. How are the sponges packed ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. They are packed in 10, 15, 20, and multiples of 5, 
 up to 100 pounds. And I would like to make the pomt that the 
 product this year owing, as I stated, to a smaller crop, brought more 
 money per pound than last year, but not in proportion to the dif- 
 ference in price. I want to be fair to all concerned, if there be any 
 point in that. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. Is the shortage of the crop due to the depletion of 
 the grounds or due to other causes ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No; we had a very stormy winter, and a great many 
 of the boats could not go out and stay. I was asked as to the size 
 of the vessels; they are of light draft and are small vessels, too small 
 for that deep-sea work, and they can only take advantage of the 
 favorable weather. I can say without any hesitation that these men 
 do not sponge 150 days out of the 365, or less than half the time, 
 throughout the year. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. You say that owing to the shortage of the crop the 
 price per pound was more than last year ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Was the total amount obtained for the crop equal 
 to that of last year ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No. This year, the crop bemg short, it was bought 
 up by one house, and that may have something to do with the higher 
 price, because they paid more than anybody else could pay. 
 
 Mr. Stephens. Is that a Florida house or a New York house ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. That is a New York house. They have agents 
 there, however. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. What is the name of that house ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Lasker & Bernstein, and there is an affiliated house 
 known as the National Sponge Co. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. What proportion of the total American consumption 
 are you producing down there ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I will say not exceeding 20 or 25 per cent. If I 
 understand vour question, there are practically but four sponge fields 
 in the world, but as Dr. Moore is more familiar with these things 
 than I am I presume he will give you that information accurately. 
 In view of that do you wish me to continue on that line ? 
 
 Mr. Ayres. No; if you prefer not to do so. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Then, as I understand it, Mr. Cheyney, there are 
 only 150 days, or half the year, in which the sponging operations can 
 be carried on, on account of weather conditions, and if that is so 
 there is practically a closed season of half a year. That, however, is 
 intermittent ? 
 
 Mr. Cpieyney. That is it, exactly. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. How long do these weather conditions last, as a 
 rule, during which sponging can not be carried on? 
 
EEGULATIOFS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 23 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Well, last winter there was a period of at least two 
 montlis in which there were not five days of operation during that 
 period, and probably three or four months in which there could not 
 have ])een, in the aggregate — taking a day now and then when they 
 could get a little calm weather — more than a week or ten days' 
 operation. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Do the sponges have an}" particular breeding 
 season ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I think not. That would be a ditticult matter for 
 anyone to determine, I judge, but I would not regard them as breed- 
 ing during any particular season. I think it is held that in the 
 Mediterranean they breed throughout the year, and I take it for 
 granted that is so here. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I should think that would be the case, that in 
 any warm or temperate latitude they would breed the year around. 
 
 Mr. ilson. It is your judgment that a closed season would not 
 be needed to protect the breeding season of the sponges ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I think not; unless we know that they do breed at 
 some special season I should hardly think we could apply it at all. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. If our purpose is to protect the hookers, so called, 
 would it not be better to regulate the depth of water in which the 
 divers could take sponges and require them to take sponges in not 
 less than a certain depth of water ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. That was really the cause of that clause in the original 
 bill under discussion; it was to protect the hookers in their work, 
 because they could not work in a greater depth than 50 feet. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. And does it not appear from actual practice that the 
 divers have voluntarily gone into deeper water and the hookers have 
 gone into shallower water ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Exactly; the hookers now work in shallower water 
 than they have for years, because they are working on the grounds 
 that are composed of shallow water. 
 
 ]\Ii\ Hardy. The point I have in mind is that if it is merel}' a 
 matter of protecting a crude method of production as against a better 
 method of production, then it would be better for the law to go into 
 that, if that is all there is in it. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. It seems to me that your position is correct and in 
 accordance mth my judgment. And I would like to make this 
 point, that in effect it is a discrimination between two methods of 
 procuring the same product, the diving method and the hooker 
 method. And if the bill that has recently passed the Senate would 
 be enforced, in looking oA^er that it occurs to me that there would be 
 a liability of the imposition of a very serious penalty upon an innocent 
 buyer of those sponges, because it is not within the power of a buyer 
 to know how those sponges were gotten. He might innocently buy 
 them, thinking they were taken by a hooker, but a Government boat 
 might have been on the ground and seen the taking of that particular 
 cargo during that closed season, and they would call on him as the 
 buyer and say, "You have bought this cargo which the divers took, 
 and we will have to take possession of it." It seems to me it is 
 dangerous, because there is no way in which the method of gathering 
 that crop can be determined by the crop itself. 
 
 The Chairman. If it is the purpose to protect the operations of the 
 hookers as against the divers, why not simply provide a law making 
 
24 EEGULATIOXS FOR THE TAKING OK CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 it a penalt}' for the one to fish in the shallow water, and let each 
 enforce the law against the other, but not make the penalty apply 
 to one who might purchase the sponges from one or the other ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. I think the original law was in that shape, but in 
 the new law that is under discussion here, in order to make it easier of 
 application by the department, they have introduced an entirely 
 new clause as to the liability of the people who might innocently buy 
 the sponges. 
 
 The Chairman. If one of these fishers by the diving process should 
 fish in water 40 feet or less in depth, the party who operates with a 
 hook could easily ascertain that as a fact and prosecute him for that 
 offense, but I do not see any reason why the part}" who purchases the 
 sponges should have that penalty visited on him, because he can not 
 know whether they were caught in shallow or deep water. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. That is the position we take in regard to it. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, let each one see that the other 
 keeps on his own grounds, and not compel the purchaser to take 
 notice of that fact in buying the product from either party. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. It seems to me that if we had such a law it would 
 necessitate the policing of those waters in order to differentiate these 
 two industries, and so far as protecting the sponges is concerned if it 
 can be held that there is a breeding season, and the entire year is 
 thrown open to the hooker, why, I expect he would destroy them. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no reason why there should be a closed 
 season applied against the diver and not against the hooker, if the 
 purpose is to protect the sponge, is there ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. As I understand it, you can not tell the difference 
 between a deep-water sponge, that is, the diver's sponge, and the 
 hooker's sponge; that when a sponge is brought to you you do not 
 know where it comes from except what the party tells you. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. We could not tell. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. And the only penalty that could be imposed on a 
 purchaser would be where he knowingly bought them ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. And then you would have to prove he had that 
 knowledge ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes; and there are so many things to be taken into 
 consideration, I take it, because the bill provides that any violation 
 of the act shall be prosecuted in any court wherein the offender is 
 found or into which he is first brought, and under those circumstances 
 the sponges could ])e followed to ISl'ew York, or anywhere else, and 
 they would still be liable. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Perhaps, as Mr. Meindanis has a wi^tten state- 
 ment, it would be just as well to have him file it and not take up the 
 time of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I would prefer to read it, because it covers all 
 the questions that were put to Mr. Cheyney. 
 
 STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE MEINDANIS. 
 
 The Chairman. What nationality are you? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I am an American. 
 
 The Chairman. But what nationality by birth? 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 25 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I am a Greek. 
 
 The Chairman. You are a naturalized American citizen? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been a citizen? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. About four or five years. 
 
 As a representative of the people at large who are engaged m the 
 sponge busmess as operators, divers, sailors, captains, and other 
 capacities, as also of those who are connected indirectly with the 
 business, I want to lay before 3^ou the true situation of the sponge 
 industry and the fishmg business, basuig all that I have to say on 
 undisputed facts and long experience. And I have as my sole object 
 the true interest of the industry, because it is so closely interwoven 
 with that of our own. 
 
 It is the unanimous desire of these people, with no dissenting voice 
 to it, to request you to repeal the law establishing a closed season, 
 because there is no need of such a law, as I will attempt to show you. 
 
 In your overzeal to protect the industry, according to what was 
 presented to j^ou you wall deal a fatal blow to the industry and the 
 producers, whom you leave unprotected, whereas you protect the 
 man who buys the product. Not only this, but you enable the man 
 who has the money to put the small-size buyer and dealer out of 
 business. 
 
 The sponge industry to-day is facing, by enforcement of the pro- 
 hibitory law, serious disasters, and the producers financial ruin, which 
 shall put them out of commission. 
 
 There is no such alarming situation regardmg the preservation of 
 the sponge beds to warrant a closed season, because nature has its 
 various closed seasons, through stormy and cloudy weather and 
 muddy water, during the interval of which the spongers can not fish. 
 
 And these periods vary occasionally. We may have a blow and 
 bad weather continuously for three months, as we had such experi- 
 ence last winter, when we had an exceptionally severe winter; and 
 if you aggregate all these periods during which the divers lie idle all 
 the year round you find the closed season established by Dame Nature 
 of no less than six months out of a year. 
 
 Also to this wasted time you must add the time the fishermen spend 
 in overhauling their boats after trips, the time they waste makmg 
 new crews and preparations to go out for a new trip, the time they 
 lose in searchmg for sponge grounds, as also the time they lose in 
 coming in and wait to sell their catch. 
 
 It is an undisputed fact that out of a three months' trip 15, 20, or 
 30 days they do fish. And many a time when they are working on a 
 sponge bar "a \Wnd blows and drives them back to shelter. Although 
 the most of them are in the fishing business for over six years, working 
 hard to make a living, they never realized money enough to buy big 
 schooners to stand the weather, which are by far indispensable to 
 them in order to go out almost to the middle of the Gulf. But they 
 have to waste time in going up along the coast to find a chance to 
 shoot out into the Gulf. 
 
 The most of these operators are still working to get the boats that 
 they own out of a heavy debt. For a trip to-day, it may prove 
 profitable to one operator, because he wasted no time, struck good 
 grounds, or had good divers, while on the other hand this very trip may 
 
26 EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 prove a failure to another. Both of them, in order to make a success, 
 must pursue their business all the year around. 
 
 There is no need for protection for the sponge beds, because they 
 cover big area, bigger than it was ever supposed, when this prohibi- 
 tory law was passed; as big as the sponge area of the Mediterranean 
 Sea, if not bigger. 
 
 To show you how big the sponge area is, I will quote you from 
 Dr. Moore's book. The Commercial Sponges of the Sponge Fisheries. 
 
 In page 403 he says : 
 
 The Mediterranean fi,shery is of considerable antiquity, and it now produces ovei 
 half in value of the world's supply, though it is impossible to obtain accurate statistics 
 for all countries on each border. The newer fisheries of the American coast produce by 
 far the largest quantity, but a predominance of lower-priced kinds, reduces the value 
 to about three-fourths of that of the Mediterranean fisheries. 
 
 This passage bears me out in saying tliat the sponge area of the Gulf 
 is big enough, since it produces the largest quantity of sponges, in con- 
 trast to the Mediterranean Sea, which had catered ever since tlie world 
 has known to a sponge fleet of 40 times bigger than the present sponge 
 fleet of Florida, whicli has no more than 50 diving boats to-day. 
 
 And further on Dr. Moore says, on page 427, in regard to the Bay 
 Grounds : 
 
 In 1D05 the area of the known sponge beds in the Bay Grounds was about 3,400 
 square miles. Since then the operation of the diA^ers, in a. few cases having gone as 
 deep a- 110 feet, have r'lighth' extended this area, and as that method of sponging 
 become.? older and the sh(ialer waters more exhausted it can hardly be doubted that 
 other productive ground.^ will be found in the greater depths. Should the Bay 
 Grounds be found to extend generally to a depth of 15 fathoms, about 3,700 square 
 miles would be added to the area of sponge bottom, no less than 5,F'00 square miles^ 
 making a total of about 9,300 square miles of sponge-producing bottom between John 
 Pass and St. Marks, inside of 20 fathoms curve. 
 
 I am satisfied with the area that Dr. Moore gave us — with his cal- 
 culations of 9,300 square miles in the Bay Grounds — without saying 
 a word about the Key Grounds, the Biscayne Bay, and around the 
 coast of Miami, east coast of Florida around the Atlantic Ocean. 
 But Dr. Moore takes St. Marks as the basis of his calculations, and 
 he says nothing of the sponge ground located north and northwest 
 of St. Marks. Sponge grounds have recently been discovered by 
 our divers in a straight northwest line from St. Marks to Carra- 
 belle, Fla., and south west -from Carrabelle right to the heart of the 
 Gulf, from any depth of water up to 22 and 24 fathoms of water. 
 With the discovery of this sponge bottom we must add at least 3,000 
 square miles to the 9,300 square miles given us by Mr. Moore, making 
 a total of 12,300 square miles sponge area in the Bay Grounds. 
 
 I think it might be well to show you gentlemen this chart and this 
 dotted line, right here — from St. Marks, right here [indicating on map]. 
 That area there [indicating] is covered by the hookers, because they 
 can not lish farther than S fathoms. That is the maximum they can 
 reach right here [indicating]. Speaking about St. Marks, it is right 
 here [indicating]. Now, the divers have discovered all these grounds 
 that Dr. Moore does not mention in his book at all. You see, they are 
 going into an area that was not known before. 
 
 The Chairman. You are referring to the Gulf of Mexico ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Between what points ? 
 
EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OK CATCHING OF SPONGES. 27 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Right here at Carrabelle, and here is St. Marks 
 [indicating]. 
 
 The Chairman. Where is Tarpon Springs ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. It is right hc^re [inchoating]. It is ah right in here 
 that they find sponges [indicating]. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Wliat is the distance from Tarpon Springs to 
 Carrabelle ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. By this line here [indicating] Carrabelle to Tarpon 
 Springs is 90 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. That is out in the Gulf? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes: and right here it is, on a straight line, 65 
 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Out into the Gulf ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes, sir. And we think that this immense sponge 
 area can support 50 diving boats without fear of its being depleted, 
 when we bear in mind, and this is according to the statistics of Dr. 
 Moore, that only in Tunis on the African coast, which sponge area 
 is not one-tenth of the whole sponge area of the Mediterranean Sea,, 
 in the year 1904 there was a number of working boats, 1,368, and 
 the grounds have not been depleted, according to the statistics of 
 Dr. Moore, for 50 continuous j^ears. 
 
 He says on page 482, with regard to the sponge beds of the Tunis 
 coast: 
 
 In 1904 the fishery gave employment to 1,368 vessels and boats. And, according to 
 Gourrest, in 1896, an average year, there were engaged in the fishery 1,089 vessels. In 
 1854 there were but 102 boats, and in 1882, according to Henneque, 572 boats and 
 vessels. 
 
 And Mr. Moore proceeds to bear me out and say that with the 
 progress of the years not only the number of the boats fishing in these 
 sponging beds has mcreased tremendously, but much more, the 
 supply of sponges has commensin-ately increased. And he goes on on 
 the same page and says: 
 
 Following is a table of the product for various periods since 1854: 
 
 TUNIS. 
 
 In the year— Pounds, 
 
 1854 26,400 
 
 1884-85 206,000 
 
 1890 245,000 
 
 1892 200,000 
 
 1894 254,000 
 
 1896 222,000 
 
 1900 211,200 
 
 1904 234, 00(V 
 
 And Dr. Moore concludes on page 483 thus: 
 
 Judging from statistics alone, the fishery seems to have been well maintained during 
 the past 20 years. 
 
 Why then this fishery, which has been overworked for 50 years 
 and by so man}^ boats, has not only not been depleted, but continues 
 to give always the same identical yield of the previous years ? And 
 in this fishery they already work dredges, as Dr. Moore tells us on 
 page 482. And page 489 he says: 
 
 There are probably between 400 and 500 dredges or gangavas employed in the sponge 
 fisheries of the Mediterranean. 
 
 I 
 
28 REGULATIONS FOE THE TAKINCx OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 And what is a dredge? Dr. Moore gave us its definition on page 502 : 
 There can be no doubt that the dredge (gangava) is a destructive engine. 
 And also on page 486 he says: 
 The dredge or gangava scrapes the bottom. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. That is, a dredging outfit does that, but you do 
 not operate dredging outfits ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they use that method in the Mediterranean? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes. As I said before. Dr. Moore says there have 
 been between 400 and 500 dredges working tliere for years and years. 
 Notwithstanding the fact that the Tunis coast has been overworked 
 by so many boats and such destructive engines, the sponge beds have 
 not been depleted. Some one might ask why ? 
 
 Mr. Moore offers the answer in page 494 : 
 
 The commercial sponges can never be actually exterminated by the agency of man. 
 It is an impossibility to denude tlie grounds so completely ks to leave none for produc- 
 tion, and moreover, since the beds became so depleted as to reduce the earnings of the 
 spongers to a bare living wage, the economic result is a reduction of the number of 
 fishers, and an establishment of an approximate equilibrium between productiveness 
 and catch. Thus, while the sponges are never actually exterminated, there results an 
 approximate commen ial extermination, never quite complete, for the reason that 
 were the fishery entirely abandoned the beds would soon recuperate and again become 
 commercially productive. 
 
 Also, we have another proof of the recuperative power of the sponge 
 beds. We have two historicall}^ undisputed facts. The sponge beds 
 of the Bay Grounds have been completely destroyed by poisoned 
 waters in the year 1878 and also in the year 1895, and they have 
 recuperated by themselves, without the aid of protective laws, 
 within a few years. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. What do you mean by poisoned waters in the year 
 1878 and the year 1895 ? That in those years the sponges were 
 completely destroyed by poisoned waters ? What do you mean by 
 that ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. That they have been completely destroyed. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. How ? ' 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. What we know from experience is this, that 
 sponges that are in the neighborhood of fresh water or fresh-water 
 springs, and which beds may be overflowed from time to time by 
 the fresh water, are liable to be destroyed; and that was so in the 
 Mediterranean Sea in the years 1878 and 1895, because those sponge 
 beds were in the neighborhood of big rivers or fresh-water springs. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I would like to say right there that two or three 
 times within my recollection fish have been known to die in very 
 large quantities on the coast of Florida, and it has been noticed that 
 this tlestruction of the fish has followed very heavy rains and resulting 
 floods. For instance, 1878 was a very wet year in Florida, and there 
 have been one or two years since of excessive rainfall, when the salt- 
 water fish have died along the lower ,Gulf coast. No one knows just 
 why. But it has always been attributed to the fresh water mingling 
 in with the Gulf water. Of course this could not happen from that 
 cause at any great distance from the shore. But whenever the fish 
 have died in great quantities, as they have two or three times within 
 my recollection, it has always been attributed to large quantities of 
 fresh water mixing: with that of the Gulf. 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 29 
 
 Mr. Hardy. The undisputed fact seems to be that by reason of 
 poisoned water the sp^nse beds were destroyed 
 
 Mr. Meindanis (interposing). And they recuperated by them- 
 selves within a few years. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. And you think that was caused by water from fresh- 
 water springs, or something of that sort? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. wSparkman. I do not think that woukl affect the sponges out 
 in very deep water. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Were these beds which were destroyed near the shore ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. They did recuperate and they are working them 
 now. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. But were they located near the shore? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Oh, yes; they are on the shore grounds; yes. 
 
 The conclusion is that the propagation of the sponge takes good 
 care of itself, and there is no fear that the sponge will be exhausted, 
 for we have the precedent and the experience in the fisheries of the 
 Mediterranean Sea, about which Mr. Moore says, on page 495: 
 
 On the African coast the yield of the beds during the past 15 or 20 years has been 
 fairly maintained. 
 
 The operations there are going all the year around by vessels of 
 any character — diving boats, dredges, hookers, nude diving, and 
 so on, which shows that there is no positive spawning season, but 
 that the sponge spawns all the year around. 
 
 To this effect Mr. Moore says, on pages 5 and 6, with regard to closing 
 the beds during the spawning season: 
 
 In the first place a difficulty presents itself from the circumstance that the sponge, 
 at least in the warmer water, spawns more or less generally throughout the year, though 
 the greater number of embryos are emitted during the spring and early summer. 
 
 There is no reason, then, for a closed-season law. It has been 
 argued before on the passage of the existing law that the law was 
 necessary to protect the sponges during the spawning season, and we 
 know well that there is no fixed spawning season. And also we know 
 well that in all fisheries of the Mediterranean Sea the fishing is not 
 only going on all the year around, but more especially the fishing by 
 diving apj)aratus and by dredge takes place during summer months. 
 
 Dr. Moore says, on page 481, with regard to the fisheries of Tripoli: 
 
 Most of the fisheries are carried on during the warmer season from April to October, 
 but a few of the more hardy crews of divers work out at all times. 
 
 Wherever a decline of the sponge beds has been observed it is 
 because the sponge beds in question exist in the neighborhood of 
 big rivers or fresh-water springs, which whenever they reduce the 
 salinity of the sea water reduce equally the sponge. 
 
 The main cause of the depletion of sponge beds is chiefly the taking 
 of the small sponges. This is the bane of the industry. And this 
 must be stopped. It was going on for years and years j^ast in the 
 Mediterranean and Florida fisheries and it is still in practice. 
 
 The existing prohibitory law, as well as any law establishing a 
 closed season, while it docs deal a fatal blow to the producers and the 
 second-class buyers and dealers, benefits the buyer with the big 
 capital only. 
 
 By saying second-class buyers and dealers I mean those who have 
 neither the money nor the credit to buy a good stock, and overstock 
 
80 REGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 rather, to carry them out duriuo; the closed season. But they have 
 to confine their oj^erations m buying occasionally, from time to time, 
 what they can afford within the means of their purses to supply the 
 trade that they have built up for themselves in past laborious years. 
 
 On the other hand, the big buyer, the man with money and credit, 
 being surer of the closed season, which naturally limits production 
 and gives him ample time to sell his stock at his leisure time, goes 
 into the market during open season with full might and force, and 
 raises up the price of the product to fictitious prices and drives his 
 com])etitor, the second-class buyer and dealer, out of the market, 
 being unable to buy at such inflated prices. 
 
 And as soon as he gets rid of his competitor and dominates over 
 the market he will readily turn against the producer and make him 
 sell his product to him for a mere song for a piece of bread and the 
 producer in return is going to pay back to the buyer the fictitious 
 price that he has gotten in the past by underselling his goods at 
 present. 
 
 Not only this, but the big man entrenching himself behind the liigh 
 price of sponges, the fictitious one which he has created to suit and 
 serve his purpose, he loads the goods, adulterates the sponges and 
 thus he robs the public in selling not sponge, but sand, salt, and 
 glucose. 
 
 Shall this effort be sanctioned by a closed season ? 
 
 By opening the fishing season you make the sponge industry stable 
 and steady as a rock and free of any fraud. 
 
 We ask for justice and justice must be done to people who day 
 and night, are fighting hard and face to face with the elements risking 
 their lives to make a bare living and support their families. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. Might I ask are you a sponge fisher? Are you en- 
 gaged in the work of gathering sponges ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I come here as their representative, because I am 
 president of their association. I represent them in all their dealings 
 as a body, and I represent no interest but those interests, the interests 
 of those who work on the sponge beds. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your notion about some one firm in New 
 York controlling the sponge beds ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I just spoke of that in a general way, because I 
 do not want to make a direct accusation of any firm. It was in a pub- 
 lic meeting down at Tarpon Springs, when I was elected their repre- 
 sentative to come here, that their buyers admitted that they had gone 
 to America. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any complaint between the fishermen and 
 the buyers there about the buyers being combined against them, at 
 Tarpon ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. There are some people who do not understand, who 
 can not see what affects the producer. The large concern which has 
 capital can buy sponges any time; they can buy enough to last them 
 through the closed season, but the small dealer with no capital, or 
 with only two or three thousand dollars, can not do that. The busi- 
 ness is too big for Ifim. 
 
 The Chairman. He has to buy during the open season ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes. Now if you let every individual go to the 
 market at any time as the grocer does at any time and buy tomatoes 
 or any kind of goods for his store to sell to his customers, it would be 
 
EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKIXG OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 31 
 
 all right, but suppose the grocer has to buy inSe])tem])er all the goods 
 that he may want during the year and has no chance to buy at any 
 other time; nobody could do that except the big man with big 
 cajiital. Of coui'se that all works against the producer. 
 
 The Chairman. The tendency, then, is to freeze out the small man ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Thayer. What is your occupation? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I am a bookkeeper. I work for a company that 
 supplies the sponges. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. How many pounds of sponges are taken off of an 
 acre of sponge ground ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. We never get any statistics of that, and I can 
 not tell you how much would come from an acre. When the diver 
 gets to the bottom of the sea it looks all alike to him, and he can 
 not tell how much ground he covers. The diver must have clear 
 water, because when he goes down he fixes his place by the sun, 
 and he must have the sun either on his left or right. Many times 
 the crews have to give up because the diver can not see where he 
 is going. WTien he goes down he puts the sun either on his left or 
 right and works on a straight line, and he can not tell whether he 
 covers an acre or 2 acres or 3 acres. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Well, I thought perhaps they stationed the boat at a 
 certain place and cleaned up all around it. 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. No, no. I will give you an illustration of that. 
 Two or three years ago one of the boats sunk. They left buoys 
 there to mark the place, but when they went back they never could 
 find the boat. It is too big a place. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Could you give a rough approximation of the 
 amount of sponges there would be to an acre of ground ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. No; and I do not think Mr. Moore can tell you. 
 The only way would be for the diver to go down there and measure 
 an acre of ground and get the sponges off of it. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. Could you give us an idea of about how much there 
 would be on a square yard ? 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. No; unless I am a diver and go down there and 
 measure the bottom and take out the dead sponges, I can not tell. 
 And I do not believe that anybody else can tell unless he is a diver 
 and goes down and measures the ground and takes the sponges off 
 of it. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. It will appear in the record that I made a statement 
 here awhile ago in reference to the question that the firm of Lasker 
 & Bernstein-rthe National Sponge Co. of New York — had bought 
 up almost the entire crop for the past six months. I want to give 
 my evidence to the committee so that it may go into the record, so 
 that Lasker & Bernstein can see for themselves why I made the 
 statement at this meeting. Prior to leaving them the chairman of 
 the meeting, who happened to be myself, made a general statement 
 of the purpose of the meeting, and in the course of the statement 
 stated that there w^as a shortage in the sponge crop at the present 
 time, and that there was a strong reason and purpose wh}- govern- 
 mental action should be desired and requested by those people, and 
 I believe that it could be shown that it had requested that action of 
 of the Government and also agitated the question of enforcing the 
 present law, which has been very actively enforced in the last few 
 
32 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 weeks. One of the Lasker & Bernstein agents, Mr. W. W. K. Decker, 
 replied to me and stated that it was a fact that his house — his em- 
 ployers — had cornered the sponge market and had the crop of 
 sponges. "But, Mr. Chairman, can you prove that they are inter- 
 ested in the nforcement of this law ? " I said, "Mr. Decker, can you 
 deny it?" He said, "I can not." "Then," I said, "I do not think 
 you have the right to ask me to approve it." I wanted to get it in 
 the record, because this firm will no doubt resent my having made 
 this statement. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand it, then, this firm of wdiich you 
 speak are actively engaged in the vigorous enforcement of this law? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that its enforcement simply gives them 
 the opportunity to corner the market ? 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. The enforcement of that law will give them from 
 three to four months in which to unload their stuff and compel all 
 of the markets of the country to go to these gentlemen to buy their 
 goods. That is repeated every season, and that is why they are so 
 anxious for the enforcement of this law. 
 
 The Chairman. Do ^m^u want to speak now? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes; if you have time. How long can you give me? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not know, but 30 minutes anyhow. . 
 
 STATEMENT OF DR. H. F. MOORE, REPRESENTING THE BUREAU 
 
 OF FISHERIES. 
 
 Dr. Moore. In the first place, there seems to have been more or 
 less of a question raised in regard to the department's attitude, and 
 I will attempt to explain the reasons that stand back of the depart- 
 ment's adA^ocacy of this new law. I shall state that one of these 
 reasons is contained in a copy of the minutes of the Tarpon Springs 
 Board of Trade, February 26, 1910 — a certified copy from the secre- 
 tary. It is a literal copy, and I would like to insert it in the record. 
 I will read it: 
 
 Copy of the minutes of the Tarpon Springs Board of Trade, February 26, 1910. Spe- 
 cial meeting. 
 
 The meeting was called to order by J. K. Cheyney, president. 
 Members present: J. K. Cheyney, E. Macrenarias, J. Diamandis, E. V. R. Trethe- 
 
 way, J. B. Reed, J. S. Walters, A. M. Lowe, G. E. Noblit, C. A. Kefalis, L. S. Fernald, 
 
 J. C. Beekman. 
 
 Visitors present: Dr. F. M. Moore, Nicholas Peppas, G. G. Mathews, A. Alissan- 
 
 dratos, Peter fjconomous, Tulemaris , John Fossil, N. G. Arfaras. 
 
 The Chairman. Right at that point — that is Mr. Cheyney, who 
 appeared before the committee to-day, who was chairman of the 
 board ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Mr. Cheyney, who appeared here to-day, was chairman 
 of that board at that time. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there is a Dr. Moore mentioned there. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes; myself. I ha])pened to be in Tarpon Springs at 
 the time, and I was asked by Mr. Cheyney to appear at that meeting. 
 [Reading:] 
 
 Object: The oljjec-t of this meeting was stated by the president as called to discuss 
 the question of taking action toward having the sponge-diving season extended. 
 
 Mr. Macrenariu? reported for their committee, ropresentino- the Greek sponge-boat 
 op(>rators, stating reasons why the season should be lengthened. That l)ad weather 
 in winter months so interfered with the diving as really to, shorten the season, and they 
 
EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OK CATCHING OF SPONGES. 33 
 
 needed extended time to make up the losses. He asked the influence of the board of 
 trade to get the season extended through May and June. 
 
 Motion was made by Mr. I. B. Reed that the report given by Mr. Macrenarius be 
 accepted. 
 
 Same was seconded and carried. 
 
 Dr. Moore, special agent of the Bureau of Fisheries, then addressed the meeting very 
 interestingly, stating the position of his bureau on the matter and showing that they 
 were interested in the profitable carrying on of the sponge business, consistent with its 
 perpetuity, and also recommending that the limit of the size of sponge that can be 
 taken be incorporated in the proposed measure and of a smallness not over 4h or 5 
 inches in diameter wet, and that the penalty be against the holders of same wherever 
 found in possession. 
 
 Peter Economous recommended that 5 inches in diameter wet be the limit and that 
 the law be rigidly enforced. 
 
 Dr. Moore suggested that the State laws be changed to accord with the Federal laws 
 on the matter as and when amended. 
 
 Motion was made by I. B. Reed that this body address a resolution to our Congress- 
 man of this district setting forth the desirability of having the present sponge-diving 
 law amended so as to permit the diving for sponge during the months of May and 
 June, and also so as to prevent the taking and marketing of sponge of a diameter of 
 less than 5 inches wet. 
 
 Seconded and carried. 
 
 Resolution introduced by I. B. Reed: 
 
 " Resolved, That the president of this board of trade appoint a committee of three of 
 its members to draw up the proposed amendment and take it to our Congressman at 
 once." 
 
 Same adopted. 
 
 The president appointed on the committee last referred to George Meindannis, 
 E. Macrenarias, and J. K. Cheyney. 
 
 No further business, meeting adjourned. 
 
 Minutes February 26, 1910, approved at meeting March 14, 1910. 
 
 J. C. Beekman, Secretary. 
 
 State of Florida, County of Hillshoro: 
 
 I hereby certify that the copy hereto attached of the minutes of the Tarpon Springs 
 Board of Trade, specifically of special meeting on February 26, 1910, and special 
 meeting on July 25, 1910, and special meeting on February 3, 1911, have been by me 
 read and compared with my minutes of the said meetings and found to be a correct 
 copy of same. 
 
 Witness my signature at Tarpon Springs, county of Hillsboro and State of Florida, 
 this 19th day of September, A. D. 1911. 
 
 J. C. Beekman, Secretary. 
 
 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a notary public for the State of Florida, this 
 19th day of September, A. D. 1911. 
 [seal.] a. M. Lowe, 
 
 Notary Public, State of Florida. 
 My commission expires October 12, 1913. 
 
 This is accompanied by an affidavit or a sworn certification from 
 the secretary. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. May I reply to that, just one word, and ask Dr. 
 Moore if that committee ever did introduce that bill which was 
 reported by Mi\ Macrenaris ? I have no recollection of ever having 
 introduced that bill, which I was directed to do. I submitted it at 
 that time to Senator Tahaferro, who afterwards lost his seat, and 
 it was abandoned for the reason that matters developed very rapidly 
 to show the inadvisability of the act. I want to ask Dr. Moore if I 
 introduced that bill ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I have made no statement that Mr. Cheyney did. In 
 fact, as far as 1 know, he had nothing to do with it. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. Does Dr. Moore know who did introduce that bill ? 
 
 55596—12 3 
 
34 REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes; I do. The bill was proposed by the Department 
 of Commerce and liabor at my suggestion -and in response to this 
 action of the Tarpon Springs Board of Trade. When I was in Tarpon 
 Springs in February oi the present year, I met Mr. Macrenaris, who 
 was on this committee, and he asked me if I could not do something 
 to have the sponge season extended. I told him at that time that 
 the Tarpon Springs Board of Trade had not acted in the matter, as 
 their committee was instructed to do, and I hoped that they would 
 take action at once. The present law is an extremely difficult one 
 to enforce, and when it became obvious that it should be amended 
 for administrative purposes I thought it would be advisable to extend 
 the open season, as requested by the Tarpon Springs Board of Trade, 
 provided that the amendments include the 5-inch limit, as suggested 
 by me. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. There seems to be absolutely no opposition in any 
 quarter to the further extension of the open season, or making 
 larger the small limit for taking sponges. Now the question whether 
 there ought to be any closed season. 
 
 Dr. Moore. This extends the open season by two months, and 
 still leaves a closed season of three months. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Even those in favor of a closed season would rather 
 have a longer open season ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes. Now some question has been raised as to what 
 is back of this bill. I will say that right from the beginning I have 
 been back of it, and the Department of Commerce and Labor, on my 
 recommendations, has been back of me. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, as I understand it, this bill as introduced by 
 Mr. Fletcher and as it passed the Senate is in harmony with the 
 resolutions passed by the Tarpon Springs Board of Trade. 
 
 Dr. Moore. My rough draft was based on what I supposed to be 
 the desires of the Tarpon Springs Board of Trade, in which I con- 
 curred. I recognized the fact that their closed season was too long, 
 that it was economically indefensible to have a season of that length. 
 Capital is unemployed, labor is unemployed; men are idle and capital 
 is idle, and it seemed to me there ought to be some extension of the 
 open season. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Doctor, you were aware of the fact that the 
 sponge grounds are exclusively in the district that I represent, and 
 that Tarpon Springs is within 25 miles of my town. Why did you 
 not come to me with this bill instead of going to the Senate with it ? 
 
 Dr. MooRE. I was consulting with Senator Fletcher on another 
 subject and when he expressed a desire to assist in improving the 
 fisheries of Florida I mentioned the sponge law on which I was work- 
 ing. He offered to introduce the measure if the department indorsed 
 it and it appeared to him to be meritorious. It was suggested to me 
 by the Acting Secretary that I should see you also, and I admit that 
 I ought to have done so. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I would like to say that I knew nothing about 
 this until a few days before the bill passed the Senate some 10 days 
 ago. I was in the Senate, and Senator Fletcher called my atten- 
 tion to the bill, but up to that time I did not know there was a meas- 
 ure pending in Congress affecting an important industry wholly 
 within my district. 
 
EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OE CATCHING OF SPONGES. 35 
 
 Dr. Moore. That was purely throiigh inadvertence. The Acting 
 Secretary had told me to see you, and it was entirely through my 
 neglect that I did not do so. 
 
 The Chairman. The question seems to be now whether or not there 
 should be any closed season. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. And the size of the sponge also. 
 
 Mr. Cheyney. It is admitted that the introduction of this bill is 
 based on the action of the board of trade meeting, the date of which 
 will recur to you as being in February, 1910. I would like to ask 
 Dr. Moore if this new bill was not introduced within this year, almost 
 two years thereafter, or a little more than two years thereafter? I 
 would like to ask if he was not present in my office a year ago and 
 accused me then and there of having abandoned the theory of a closed 
 season, and I told him I had. He states that he was in Tarpon 
 Springs some three months ago and saw ]\Ir. Macrenarias. I think I 
 was in Tarpon Springs at that time, but I do not think Dr. Moore 
 saw me. 
 
 Dr. Moore. You mean whether I saw Mr. Macrenarias ? 
 
 Mv. Cheyney. You stated that you had seen Mr. Macrenarias on 
 that day. I stated that I was in Tarpon Springs at that time, but 
 you did not see me. 
 
 Dr. Moore. I saw you at the same time. I was with you when I 
 saw Mr. Macrenarias. 
 
 The Chairman. There has been a suggestion that this bill was intro- 
 duced at the instance of these parties who control the market, and it 
 was to that point I understand Dr. Moore is addressing himself. 
 
 Dr. Moore. The question has been raised as to why this bill was 
 introduced, and I am trying to show that it was introduced purely 
 in the interest of the sponge fisheries. 
 
 ]\Ii\ Wilson. Your statement of facts has not been questioned, 
 but the people who were present at the board of trade meeting have 
 since changed their minds. Now, what is the use of any further 
 controversy in connection with that ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I have said all that I care to say on that subject any- 
 how. It seemed to me that the motives of the department and my 
 own personal motives in the matter had been impugned. 
 
 jVIi'. Sparkman. We do not question your good motives in the least. 
 Doctor, or the propriety of your action. 
 
 Dr. Moore. I am very glad, because I have always been very 
 friendly with these gentlemen and have no desire to get into any 
 controversy. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. The thing that I was curious to know is what this 
 qualification of 5 inches dry and wet means. What is the difference 
 between the size of a sponge wet and the size of a sponge dry? 
 
 Dr. Moore. It is larger when it is wet than it is when it is dry. 
 Moreover, it is resilient when it is wet and will not remain com- 
 pressed. A dry sponge can be squeezed up into a small wad, and 
 the measurement depends very largely on the amount of compression 
 to which it has been subjected, and this provision that it shall be 
 measured wet is intended to give a definite standard by which 
 it shall be measured, and that standard will be most favorable to 
 the producers of sponges. Now, I am quite willing to agree with 
 the gentlemen who have preceded me in stating that the most im- 
 portant feature of this bill is that which raises the minimum size of 
 
36 EEGULATIONS FOK THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 sponges from 4 inches to 5 inches. I think that is absolutely essential 
 for the perpetuation of the sponge beds. Without that provision 
 nothing will very much avail in protecting the beds. I do think, 
 however, that something in addition to this ouglit to be done, and 
 that a closed season is essential. 
 
 It has been stated here that there is no evidence that these grounds 
 have been depleted. We have heard a great deal of the vast area of 
 these sponge beds, but I should like to point out that the barren area 
 included in the estimates vastly exceeds the productive bottom. 
 Sponges, as a rule, grow on a rocky bottom, and they are confined to 
 areas like small islets with a great sea of sand surrounding them. 
 There arc not 9,000 or 10,000 cr 12,000 square miles of actual sponge- 
 producing bottom. Nobody knows just how much there is, but I 
 venture to say that it is not 1 per cent of this. As Mr. Meindanis 
 says, nobody can tell just what area is covered in sponge operations, 
 and any statements which he quoted are that the productive bottom 
 is sparsely scattered over this area. The evidence on which I base 
 my opinion that there has been some depletion of these grounds 
 during the period in whicli diving has ]jeen carried on is this: When 
 diving first commenced they operated in water from 40 to 60 feet 
 deep and often in less. I have seen the di^dng vessels working in 20 
 feet of water. At that time there were two divers employed on a 
 vessel. At the present time probably three-fourths of the vessels are 
 carrying from five to six divers and they are operating in 17 to 20 
 fathoms of water. Now, there may be two reasons for these divers 
 going into deep w^ater, but I think you must admit that they will not 
 go into deep water and employ two or three times as many divers, 
 who are their highest-priced men, unless they have good cause for so 
 doing. As I said, there are possibly two reasons: One is tliat the 
 sponges are of better quality in the deep water, but after you reach 
 a certain depth, 50 or 60 feet, there is very little difference in the 
 quality of sponges up to 100 or 120 feet. Moreover, during the first 
 year of operations on the Florida coast the grade of sponges that was 
 taken, even though taken in comparatively shallow water, was as 
 good as the grade of sponges which have been taken at any time 
 since. Furthermore, the sponges taken in absolutely virgin ground 
 are generally recognized by divers to be somewhat inferior. There 
 is likely to be a superabundance of old sponges, or sponges with dead 
 portions in them, which will make them irregular and leave holes in 
 them. 
 
 Now, I have three reasons why, in my opinion, there is some doubt 
 as to whether the spongers go out into deep water for the sake of 
 getting better sponges. It is my opinion that they go out there 
 because they have exhausted, not absolutely but comparatively, the 
 grounds on which they previously have been working. I should be 
 very glad if it could be demonstrated, that that is not the case. I 
 should like to see the divers and all the sponge fishermen of Florida 
 permitted to work throughout the year, but. we in our department 
 are charged with the duty of looking out for these fisheries, not only 
 for tlie present but for the future. We desire to not only see them 
 properly fished at the present time but to maintain them, and for 
 that reason I believe that for the present it is advisable to continue 
 a closed season of not less than three months. Those three months 
 lia\ e been selected with some care. Thev are the months during which 
 
KEGULATIOlSrS FOE THE TAKING OK CATCHING OF SPONGES. 37 
 
 hurricanes are more likely to pre^ ail on the Florida roast, therefore 
 the months during which the sponge fishermen can aiTord to be idle 
 to some extent in the interest of safet}' for themselves and their 
 vessels. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. May I ask right there, what was your reason for 
 selecting those three months ? I fancy you have not selected those 
 particular three months because of tlie' hurricane season, but you 
 have probably had some other reason for that. 
 
 Dr. Moore. No. My idea was to have three-fourths of the year 
 open for fishing and one fourth closed. The selection of the addi- 
 tional months might have been at one end of the closed season or at 
 the other, but it would not have been \vise to make it in the middle. 
 There was a question, then, between choosing May and June, or 
 choosing August or September. The season opens the 1st of October. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. And you made it July? 
 
 Dr. Moore. That would be the intermediate month. If I decided 
 that it was advisable to provide two additional months of open 
 season, naturally I would select those months at either one end or 
 the other of the present closed seasoji, so as to make the fishery 
 continuous. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Simply to get a period of rest without any special 
 reference to the time, because I dare say you do not know the breed- 
 ing season of the sponges. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes; we know the breeding season. We know the 
 sponges breed in the summer, and probably most of their spawn is cast 
 in the summer. But at the same time we know that they breed to 
 some exteiit most of the year. I was not selecting it with the idea of 
 having the closed season during the spawning period, because that 
 appears to mo to be futile. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I can not gather from reading your book why you 
 think they spawn in one season more than in another. I think you 
 stated there that it is more in the summer and I wanted to get your 
 reason for so thinking. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Observation. We have observed that the spawn is 
 more plentiful during the summer than in other months of the year. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Where have you observed that. 
 
 Dr. Moore. At Tarpon Springs and Sugar Loaf Kej^. 
 
 The Chairman. I notice in your book you state that you think 
 they are propagated largely by the sexual process. Can you give us 
 an idea why you gave that cautious statement. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Because certain kinds of sponges throw out what are 
 known as buds. A certain part of the tissue divides off into a little 
 bulb and eventually takes form, and there is a possibiiit}'' that the 
 commercial sponges of our coast propagate by that means also. 
 They will propagate from cuttings also. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Have you been able to discover the egg itself. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Y(«, sir. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. What we are all anxious to know is whether the bureau 
 has been able to do anything for the artificial propagation of sponges ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes; we have carried on experiments for a number of 
 years, in which I had the assistance of Mr. Che3mey, and I think we 
 have developed a method of sponge culture which is practical and 
 feasible. I think Mr. Cheyney, who has had practical experience, 
 vnW bear me out in that statement. I also further understand that 
 
38 EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OK CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 this method of sponge culture is now being carried on somewhat 
 extensively at Sugar Loaf Key, 15 or 16 miles from Key West. 
 They claim to have between two and three hundred thousand sponges 
 growing there now in a period of 17 or 18 months. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. This is a very interesting question to me. I got 
 the impression that this method of propagating the sponges artifi- 
 cially, which you have suggested, was not very eiiective. I heard it 
 from parties who live in Florida, and who have worked somewhat 
 with sponges, and I am glad to hear that you think it is going to be 
 effective. 
 
 Dr. Moore. The present indications are that it will be. A great 
 many persons have been opposed to it from the beginning, and have 
 thought our expectations were fatuous, and that we were generally 
 ridiculous to attempt anything of the kind. There are a great many 
 j)ersons who have actually seen sponges that were grown from cut- 
 tings and still think that they can not be grown artificiall}^ But the 
 fact remains that there are now between two and three hundred 
 thousand at Sugar Loaf Key, and I understand that they are doing 
 very well. If you get dowai in that vicinity I think you might be 
 interested in seeing them. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. I was very much interested a few years ago when 
 you first told me about it, and I am glad to learn that you think it is 
 going to be a success. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Of course, there is the possibility that something may 
 occur to destroy them before the experiment is completed. Some- 
 thing may wreck the whole experiment, but so far its operation is 
 successful. 
 
 Mr. Ayres. If these experiments can suppl}^ enough artificial 
 sponges, I wonder whether it would be possible to change the quality 
 of them. 
 
 Dr. Moore. I do not think we can control the quality. We find 
 that the artificial sponge is in certain particulars better than the 
 natural sponge grown in the same neighborhood. The natural 
 sponge is torn loose from the rough rock. The tissues are actually 
 torn apart and that leaves a raw surface, which j^ou have noticed on 
 the bottom of sponges. That is the weakest part of the sponge. 
 By the method which we are using, or which we propose, of attaching 
 the sponges to smooth cement disks, the tearing does not take place. 
 The sponge is stripped off and nothing is left behmd at the point of 
 attachment, and as the result there is a beautiful, smooth, velvety 
 surface, which, instead of being the weakest part of the sponge, is the 
 strongest. 
 
 The Chairman. The Mediterranean sponges are better than those 
 that are produced here, are they not ? 
 
 Dr. ]\Ioore. They are better for some purposes. The Rock Island 
 sheep's-wool sponge is unexcelled for many purposes by any sponge in 
 the world. 
 
 The Chairman. That is not produced in the waters of the Gulf? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes; the Kock Island sheeps-wool sponge is the fine 
 native Florida sponge. 
 
 The Chairman. I got the impression that the Mediterranean were 
 superior. 
 
 Dr. Moore. I do not think they are although they bring higher 
 prices. For very fine toilet use, for small face sponges, for children's 
 
KEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 39 
 
 use the Mediterranean sponges are superior on account of the close, 
 fine, soft texture. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you grow this artificiahy in the Florida 
 waters ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I believe we can, and I think the time will come when 
 there will be an opportunity to undertake that experiment. It is 
 possible that if we do succeed in introducing them into Florida waters 
 they may not maintain the exact character they have in the Mediter- 
 ranean, but there is no reason for not supposing that they might 
 become superior just as on the other hand they might become inferior. 
 
 The Chairman. One more question. I understood you to say that 
 in 3"our judgment the most efficient method of protecting the sponges 
 would be a restriction as to the size taken, from 4 to 5 inches, so that 
 nothing could be lawfully taken under 5 inches wide. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, wouldn't that be sufficient within itself to 
 protect the sponges in our waters'? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Idoubt that. I think it ought to be demonstrated 
 before the entire year is thrown open for these operations. It is very 
 much easier to shorten the season than it is to extend it. We have 
 had a great deal to guide us in the protection of the natural resources 
 of this country and we have always found that it is very much easier 
 to give additional latitude than it is to curtail rights and privileges of 
 persons who have established a business. 
 
 The Chairman. The spawning season being all the year around 
 practically, your only idea is to cut down the operation period, the 
 time during wliich the diving and gathering of sponges can be car- 
 ried on. You think that one-fourth of the time should be cut off. 
 Do you think that would be sufficient to protect them ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I think so and if it is demonstrated that there is no 
 tendency to deplete the grounds those interested will find that our 
 bureau will be perfectly willing to advocate a further extension of 
 the open season. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Right there Doctor how can you demonstrate that? 
 
 Dr. Moore. By studying the sponge fisheries for a period of years, 
 by studying statistics of the sponge fisheries not only with respect 
 to the catcli but witli respect to the vigor with which the industry is 
 prosecuted the number of vessels and men engaged and with due 
 consideration to the weather. That is one of the factors that must 
 be taken into consideration. If we consider the past season for 
 instance it would indicate great depletion of the beds but as Mr. 
 Cheyney has stated, this lias been an extremely bad season. I know 
 that because I was down there in part of it. At the time that Mr. 
 Cheyney has remarked that he did not see me although I stopped at 
 his house. 
 
 Mr. Stone. Would the study of the Mediterranean beds have any 
 bearing or give any light on this subject? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Stone. I understand the statement to have been made that the 
 beds there are of no greater area than the beds here; but there are 
 forty times as many vessels engaged in sponge fishing, and some of 
 these vessels use dredges instead of diving. There is every reason 
 why we should beheve that the supply would be depleted, and yet sta- 
 tistics taken from your book say that there is no depletion. 
 
40 EEGULATIONS FOE THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yet recently, since that book was written — it was 
 written in 1908 — since then I have visited the Mediterranean and 
 have made a study of some of those grounds. I have gone to Tunis, 
 the beds of which were particularly referred to by Mr. Meindanis. I 
 find that there is a belief among the merchants and among some of the 
 fishermen themselves that the beds are being depleted. The Tunisian 
 regency, which is under the Government of France, is making an effort 
 to actually exterminate diving apparatus within the limits or juris- 
 diction claimed by Tunisia. There is also a closed season of two 
 months. 
 
 Mr. Meindanis. I would like to say something here. Mr. Moore 
 is under the impression that diving on the beds down in Florida has 
 increased. It is a fact that some prefer to work in deep water and 
 some in shallow. The reason why they prefer to work in deep water 
 is because the sponges are better and bring higher prices. The shal- 
 low sponge brings only $6, while the deep-water sponge brings $19 
 to .$20. The reason that some of them go in shallow water is that it 
 takes so much money to operate the divers in deep water. In shallow 
 water the diver can work from 3 to 6 hours, but in deep water he can 
 only stay down 15 or 20 minutes. I demonstrated and I brought 
 arguments and figures from Mr. Moore's book, the figures from 
 Tunis showing that the beds are not depleted, which are the only 
 figures we have, and right there they are trying to limit the sponge 
 boats, but only for the fact that the citizens in Tunis want to exclude 
 the Greeks and the Turks from fishing in those beds. 
 
 Mr. Wilson. I believe it was your statement that in the new lields 
 or new ground there were a larger percentage of poor sponges than in 
 the older grounds, because there was a larger percentage of sponges 
 that were damaged. Now, wouldn't it naturally follow that if we 
 have a closed season during the year there would be a greater number 
 of those places where old sponges were found than if you did not have 
 a closed season? 
 
 Dr. MooKE. No; because that would not be a virgin ground. Old 
 sponges are found on virgin grounds which have not been worked for 
 many years. It takes some years for sponges to become as old as 
 that. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. How many years ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I can not say any specified number of years, but it 
 would probably be 10 years or so. Some of them will begin to die 
 before that. Understand, I am not making that statement as a 
 scientific fact; I am simply making it as a general statement. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. If it is a fact that a vessel sunk with the mast extend- 
 ing above the water in grounds that were used for sponge hunting was 
 incapable of being found for a long time by the men who looked for it, 
 even after they had planted buoys for it, doesn't that indicate that 
 there is no risk of working over this land, and that it is altogether 
 reasonable to suppose that the same ground is gone over svstemati- 
 cally? 
 
 Dr. Moore. The same ground is not gone over systematically 
 except close to the shore. There is no doubt about that. On the 
 other hand, the same ground may be gone over three or four times, 
 and another ground may be obeiiooked. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. The point seems to me to be that where you can not 
 tell within 4 or 5 miles where you have been engaged in the last 
 
REGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OR CATCHING OF SPONGES. 41 
 
 week — it looks to me as though you are protecting something very 
 ehisive. It is not Uke protecting the seal business or anything of 
 that kind. You probably have parts of that ground that are not 
 gone over once in 10 years. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Quite hkely, but on the other hand, some of the 
 grounds are gone over every year. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. And a three-months' closed season will be simply 
 limiting the enterprise that much ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I am quite wilhng to admit that it is an unfortunate 
 thing from a purely economic standpoint, and if the biological factor 
 were not involved in it, it \\«ould be entirely indefensible to have a 
 closed season, but it is unwise to jeopardize the future for immediate 
 gain. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. Here you have a field that is not regularly worked 
 every two years or three years; you have an irregular field that you 
 can not go over systematically at all, and when you take three months 
 off the year you just decrease the industry by 25 per cent, but at 
 the same time you may be going over the same ground just as much 
 as you would if you worked the whole j^ear. In other words, you 
 might cover the same land as many times in the three-fourths of a 
 year that you would in a whole year, and you simply cut down the 
 enterprise that much. 
 
 Dr. MooRE. It may, within certain hmits, but I think on the other 
 hand you may be distributing their operations. As I stated before, 
 undoubtedly wdthin the hmits that have been exploited, there are 
 some beds which have never been worked. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. And some of them would have been touched too 
 often, even if they worked only six months in the year. 
 
 Dr. MooRE. That is ciuite true; yes. 
 
 Mr. Stone. I remember a statement was made that there are about 
 50 boats engaged in fishing there. Would you have any objection to 
 65 boats being engaged ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Of course, I would not have any objection. 
 
 Mr. Stone. Wouldn't a cutting down of the number of boats 
 amount to the same thing as a closed season ? If we are to protect 
 the business, the protection would be the same by reducing the num- 
 ber of boats as it would in reducing the time. Now, the suggestion is 
 that we have a closed season of three months; that closed season 
 would be offset by adding to the number of boats that we have now. 
 
 Mr. Hardy. It would be the same thing to have 12 boats 9 months, 
 or to have 9 boats 12 months. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Exactly. 
 
 Mr. Stone. It doesn't appear to be a very long time for any ad- 
 vantage to be gained by this three months' closed season. 
 
 The Chairman. The statement has been made here that they do 
 not work more than 150 days in the year in any event. 
 
 Dr. Moore. I would like to ask this question: Mr. Stone sug- 
 gests the addition of 15 boats. Those boats would enter into the 
 business for the purpose of profit. That is, the more profitable the 
 business the more likel}' thej would be to enter into it. Isn't that 
 a fair argument ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Dr. Moore. Granted that, if you open the season to twelve months, 
 the added profitableness of the industry would be very nuch more 
 
42 EEGULATIONS FOR THE TAKING OE CATCHING OF SPONGES. 
 
 likely to attract additional capital from the outside to enter into it 
 and the inroads on the beds would be increased very greatly. 
 
 The Chairman. Losing sight of the commercial element, is there 
 any good reason why there should be a closed season for the propa- 
 gation of the sponge '^ 
 
 Dr. Moore. No ; not for the propagation of the sponge, but there 
 should be for the protection of the sponge. I make that distinction. 
 The protection of the sponge is brought about by a curtailment of 
 the quantity that can be taken, by reason of the restriction of the 
 fishery to a part of the year, three-fourths of the year instead of the 
 entire year. A closed season for the benefit of the propagation of 
 the sponge would be drawn so as to cover the spawning season and 
 permit the sponge to spawn, but, inasmuch as it spawns most of the 
 year, that is not practicable, and I do not believe it is good policy in 
 any event. 
 
 ^Ir. Sparkman. Assuming that the operations are not carried on 
 more than 50 per cent of the time, would the cutting down of the 
 period, the open period, by three months curtail the period of opera- 
 tions, in your judgment? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Undoubtedly it would curtail them. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. If they are only working 50 per cent now, how 
 would one-fourth cut down the 50 per cent? 
 
 Dr. Moore. I did not mean further curtailment over present 
 conditions. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. 1 can see that it might have that effect, but would 
 it necessarily ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Not further curtail it over present conditions. This 
 law will not curtail present opportunity; it will simply extend the 
 period of operations without throwing the season wide open. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Starting out with the assumption of an open 
 season the year round, curtail it three months. Now if it is a fact 
 that they are working only 50 })er cent of the time, would that curtail- 
 ment of the season cut it down further ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. Yes. If they work 150 days in the entire year Math 
 the entire season open, if the open season is cut down to 9 months in 
 the year they will work three-fourths of 150 days. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. Only working 50 per cent of the time anyway? 
 
 Dr. Moore. There is onl}^ 50 per cent of the time in which it is 
 possible for them to work. 
 
 The Chairman. Now from the commercial standpoint there is no 
 claim that there is overproduction of sponges or that there is waste 
 in the industry. On the other hand, if you limit the open season and 
 limit production you simply increase the price to the consumer, and 
 in that way also you limit the number of persons actively engaged 
 in the industry. Now what reason is there for limiting the open 
 season if those concUtions exist ? 
 
 Dr. Moore. The reason is this: We are concerned with conditions 
 in the future. It is quite true that the closer the operation is restricted 
 the more we will restrict the supply, and that is what we are aiming 
 at, not for economic reasons but for biological reasons. If the beds 
 are depleted, the future price to the consumer will be unlimited. 
 
 Mr. Sparkman. If they fish 12 months in the year, you think that 
 would be too much ? 
 
EEGUI^IIOHS POK THE TAKIKG OE OATCHIHG OP SPONGES. 43 
 
 bu?«*fxperionce'demonstrSd IhirT""" ^""^ °"* for the future; 
 supply of sponges we Xfld then W» ^^"'X^'^'. °<> decrease in the 
 season. • "' ™*"' ''''™ "» objection to increasing the 
 
 o£mltu£tUtZsZJr T*' '^*'"g ''y diving and by 
 the supply. """"^ ''<'«'^ demonstrated that it decreased 
 
 ye«s/^Cth"?nit: zt:^b:Jtir''' ■^r^-'' - ---* 
 
 years ago ? i=ponges being taken now than there were 10 
 
 and'th^Sdm^nVXinf h^L"';? ^■''^"'^'"S on hooking, 
 taken. "^'°S bas greatly increased the number 
 
 by^ea??''""''- "''^ ''^'^ "«— <>-• value been increasing year 
 
 bu?[t rs^iJa^edVom s'omeS^.te^^ "^^^^ ^'^ ""'« "'^"ge- 
 sand dollars' worth lO^'earrao^fofc, *'*'"/*''" ''"°dred thou- 
 thousand dollars' worth now between five and six hundred 
 
 to'p^o„'ra:^:th^>'^i:^,f:,P*j;,f,yourde^art^ 
 
 the supply? iiictime iiie usetul to man to increase 
 
 spo"ngee'Xi"e™er„™t''°"'"''' ""'' """ '^ ">« ""icct of the 
 ekpfriifems?'"''- °° ^'°" ''''^"y ''"^^ '>«P- "f the success of these 
 
 fid|feetrbu?f W^r™S;;Xt''- ' -^^ "°' '-'" ^''-'"*<' ->- 
 this bill "Xdo'fe ,"w'"" '' "°"''"-" ^'^^' ««""»-"• '"^ l>-rings on 
 Wliereupon, at 12.15 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned. 
 
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